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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impressed me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library.

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So you, the personal trainer does not have to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career.

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Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.

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Now if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder.com.

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And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.

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T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show veteran law enforcement officer and the vice president of CLS background investigations,

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Dan Skachilis.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into law enforcement,

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the unique lens he had working for customs, either side of 9-11, workplace violence, school

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safety, background checks, the national recruitment crisis, the downstream costs of hiring the

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wrong employees and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over a thousand episodes now, so all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every

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single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Dan Skachilis.

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Well Dan, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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James, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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Well I am currently in New Lenox, Illinois, which is about 20 miles west of Chicago near

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the Joliet border, for those of you that are familiar with this area of the country.

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Beautiful.

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Well I want to start at the very beginning of your timeline, we'll kind of walk through

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and then we'll obviously get to what we're going to talk about as far as the primary

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subject.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Sure.

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So I was born actually in Abilene, Texas, in a hospital in an Air Force base there,

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my father was stationed there.

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Didn't spend much time in Texas, unfortunately ended up moving to Illinois very young and

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I've been here ever since.

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My father was in law enforcement for a number of years before going into the insurance fraud

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investigations field and my mom was a nurse after they divorced, which was when I was

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in fifth grade.

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So kind of a, I don't want to say a broken home, I mean I had both parents in my life

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just not together.

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I got divorced when my son was about three and we were just talking about it, he's about

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to turn 18 this summer and he's got two parents that loved him but I always kind of felt bad

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about that bouncing back and forth.

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It had to be done, the marriage was completely done and it would have been horrendous if

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we'd stay together but watching a child have to spend Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday here and

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then the rest of the week there or whatever it is, it has an impact.

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No matter how much the parents love them, they don't have that kind of stability that

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a nuclear family has.

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You are absolutely correct, yes.

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All right well then you mentioned about insurance fraud, just to jump down a rabbit hole for

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a second.

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What area was your dad working as far as the insurance business?

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So when he left the police department and got into insurance, the insurance fraud component

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was a relatively new thing and the insurance industry was actively recruiting from the

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law enforcement pool those individuals that were on the cusp of retirement or those individuals

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that had just had enough of law enforcement and wanted to jump ship.

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So he did, he left and he worked for Prudential Insurance for I want to say 15, 16 years before

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he actually retired for good.

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I don't know whether he would say it was the most rewarding portion of his life but it

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made him a living and it used the skill set that he was able to develop when he was on

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the police department.

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He was in detectives there so it was kind of an easy transition I think for him.

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What kind of insurance fraud was he investigating?

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Different casualty for the most part, fire, that you know suspicious house fires, what

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not, vehicle fires.

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He was actually pretty good with regard to arson investigations and I think that was

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training that he got once he got into the insurance industry but I was always amazed

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at some of the ways that he would tell us that these you know professional arsonists

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if you will would cause the fire to spread from one location of the house to another

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quickly with leaving very little physical evidence of the event or evidence that would

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not necessarily be viewed as suspicious when presented.

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For instance you know a bag of potato chips will go up in flames very easily because of

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the oil content in the bag and if that happens to be in the kitchen and that's where the

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fire starts then it can be used to spread that kind of thing.

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So it was interesting to see and I know he was very intrigued with it but I don't know

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that he found it to be as rewarding overall as the law enforcement portion of his life.

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It's an important conversation I think especially on the roads.

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When I first moved to the States I remember being in a motel and there was back in the

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day you had the yellow pages and you know the white pages and I remember there was this

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one from the side as you're looking at it the pages were all kind of painted a different

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color on the edge.

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So I'm thinking okay that must be doctors or you know the professions that everyone

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needs but it was attorneys and it was literally about a quarter of the entire yellow pages

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and so I was like what the hell you know is going on here and then you live here and then

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you become the firefighter and EMT and the paramedic and you see you know the ambulance

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chasing mentality you know and then you look at the price of our insurance now it blows

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me away that we haven't addressed that kind of frivolous lawsuit element of our legal

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system.

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Yeah it is it has become a very litigious society overall and it's not just you know

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we do a lot of private investigations work here too and a lot of that is for law firms

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and generally they try the shotgun approach whenever they get a new case right.

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We're going to sue everybody that's associated with this matter and we'll weed out the ones

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that are not involved later on but you know for one single lawsuit they may be serving

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a car accident for instance.

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We may go out and serve 15 different individuals associated with that accident from insurance

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companies to witnesses to people that were in the car to people that claim they were

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in the trunk of the car to any way that they can associate somebody with that they're getting

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pulled in.

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I remember I think it was Anaheim if I'm not mistaken they had a bus accident it might

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have actually been the Orlando area but anyway they had a bus accident and they said they

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were working the scene and cars pulled up to the scene people got out the cars and went

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onto the bus to pretend that they were also on there so they could start their legal claim.

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So I've watched people lying on the floor in stores you know and we've gone responded

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as medics and then the manager will show us the CCTV footage of someone dumping out the

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laundry detergent themselves and then lying next to it and then starting to scream.

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I mean it's crazy.

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When I was on the police department we had a one of the main intersections in town was

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very close to a very large apartment complex and bus accidents at that intersection were

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not completely uncommon and we would have to station somebody at the front and the back

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of the bus to keep people from running out of the apartments and jumping on while we

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process the scene.

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It was crazy.

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I remember my very first fire department hi Aliyah we had a case and it was absolute deluge

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of a thunderstorm going on as well and a person had been backing out of a parking space and

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someone had come in into the parking lot and just dinked them like there was nothing even

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visible on the car and the driver of the one backing out was a lawyer and all of a sudden

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now his neck hurt and all this stuff.

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And I'm a brand new probie so I've got no skin in the game other than just to listen

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to what people tell me to do.

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We put him on the backboard they first tape over his eyebrows yeah the piece of tape that

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goes over the eyebrows and then they did the paperwork in the back of the rescue while

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the guy sat on the stretcher in the middle of the rainstorm.

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We didn't even put him back in the rig.

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So you got to be careful because your first responders know.

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That's right absolutely absolutely we've all got got those story.

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I used to get a kick out of the you know we would get the violent offenders that ended

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up having to go to the hospital and the give the nurses and the doctors of real ration

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in the emergency room and I thought you have no idea.

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There were areas that I never thought you could get a garden hose into and they were

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just given these guys the once over and I thought you know you kind of asked for it.

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So good for you.

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You reap what you sow.

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That's right.

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Well one more area because this has actually come up a lot recently it'd be interesting

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to get your perspective on this.

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When you have a first responder who has some sort of injury and let's say they ultimately

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have to become retired you know medically retired from it.

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I never had that happen I had injuries but I was able to rehab back to full duty but

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I watched my friends with legitimate you know either mental health issues or legitimate

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you know back injuries that had surgeries and all these kind of things terrified to

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do anything because they were worried that there was going to be some dude in a bush

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taking a picture and all of a sudden it was taken away from them.

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And if you think about that as a philosophy there's nothing worse you can do to someone

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than discouraging from doing the very things that they can do to actually start healing.

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They may not be able to be a police officer or firefighter anymore but they can still

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pick up their children and maybe you know do some some you know other careers instead.

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So what is your perspective on that kind of fear when it comes to medical retirements

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and some of the issues that our profession sees as a barrier to them actually getting

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help and progressing forward in their life.

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Yeah and it is a huge problem.

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We have been retained in a number of cases to go out and videotape individuals that are

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out on workman's comp claims and whatnot and you know within my agency when I was still

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on the department we had a couple of guys that were out for really extended periods

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of time and you know the same type of thing.

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Were they under constant surveillance?

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Not always because that gets to be very expensive but things like being sent back to the doctor

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on a yearly basis for a re-evaluation to check for fitness duty those types of things.

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And it swung both ways.

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There were a number of people that really could have gone back to duty at some point

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and just decided to milk the system.

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And I will tell you that the concern of especially in the early stages of an injury having somebody

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out there watching you is legitimate.

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I mean it's usually more the insurance company that retains us as opposed to the agency itself

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the workman's comp company.

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But it is a concern and you know you shouldn't feel like you have to be a prisoner in your

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own home because somebody is going to interpret the video of you out sweeping your porch as

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being fit to go back and work the rig and climb the ladders.

226
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So it is a problem you know but this is how the lawyers make their money.

227
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Yeah absolutely.

228
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Well again I think that's another area we could address because 100% abuse and we've

229
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all seen those you know those those homes that have the escalates on the front driveway

230
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and the kids are impoverished and there's no food in the you know that those exist.

231
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There is you know food stamp abuse and all those kind of things.

232
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But people kind of get pulled into that and forget that that's a small percentage.

233
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Those systems work for a majority of people.

234
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But if you are discouraging someone with a back injury to move I mean you know the reason

235
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I managed to rehab my back was because of movement chiropractic you know PT building

236
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up in the gym.

237
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And if you took a picture of me in the gym you're always not hurt.

238
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He's on a journey to be not hurt and I got back to full duty.

239
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But I think some of my peers didn't get back to full duty because of that broken system.

240
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Yeah.

241
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:52,120
Yeah I would agree.

242
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,080
It is it is problematic what the solution is.

243
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I don't know.

244
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I don't know that it's ever going to to change.

245
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Again you make the argument that look if I sit if I lie in bed all day and moan because

246
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it hurts it's never going to stop hurting.

247
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I've got to get up and become mobile.

248
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So I'm going to push myself every single day.

249
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And if you want to videotape that and then we argue it in court so be it.

250
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,560
But you know especially these younger folks that have legitimate injuries and I'm not

251
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talking about people milk in the system.

252
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When you have a legitimate industry injury you want to get back to being functional enough

253
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to do something.

254
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Like you said you may never return to full duty again.

255
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Maybe your career is over but I want to do something.

256
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:44,160
Nobody wants to be you know sitting on their couch all day at 25 years old relying on somebody

257
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else to feed them and help them get to the bathroom.

258
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So it's it's a shame that the system is skewed that way.

259
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:53,920
Yeah absolutely.

260
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,120
Well you mentioned that your dad was in law enforcement when you were at the school age

261
00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,520
was that what you were dreaming of.

262
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Was there another career in mind at first.

263
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,720
You know initially I wanted to go into construction and I actually did.

264
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,360
I had an uncle that owned a construction company and I worked for him from the time I was about

265
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12 to the time I was about 18 building homes.

266
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So a skill set that I'm definitely very grateful for now.

267
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And then where the law enforcement thing came into play I really don't know.

268
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I just I woke up one day and said this is what I want to do.

269
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My father was not thrilled with it because he had been there and you know experienced

270
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the politics of the whole thing.

271
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But I just kind of fell in love with the concept and pursued it hard from that point until

272
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I actually got hired at 21.

273
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What was it that your dad was saying about his experience in law enforcement that deterred

274
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him from encouraging you going in because this is something that we hear even more now

275
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and that's one of the reasons why we have this recruitment crisis.

276
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:16,400
Yeah and you know with my with my father you're talking about going all the way back to the

277
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very early 80s.

278
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He was working for a suburban department just outside of the city of Chicago and they got

279
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a new chief in there who was retired rank from Chicago and came in to do things the

280
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,160
Chicago way and it didn't fly in the suburban department.

281
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And he was my father and some of his co-workers were witness to some things that the this

282
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individual was doing with regard to some interrogation tactics and whatnot and went to the proper

283
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authorities and reported it and whenever you get a situation like that you got to hope

284
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:07,280
that it all goes your way because if it doesn't this guy is left in power you're cooked.

285
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,920
Well it didn't he was left in power and he was cooked and he was very bitter about the

286
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,920
whole thing you know.

287
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:19,560
He said I did the right thing and those people that were that had my back when we did it

288
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,360
then turned on me and he said it just he says you have to be very careful the politics are

289
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:31,680
horrible and you know now when you're looking at it from a recruitment standpoint I think

290
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you're getting individuals like myself and that that are discouraging people from going

291
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:49,360
into law enforcement not just because of the politics but the way that the society is turned.

292
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:58,240
I mean they the police are just not looked at fondly any longer you know and what was

293
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:05,140
a fantastic career is now just something that nobody wants to do and I'm not out there beating

294
00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:07,160
the drum trying to turn people away.

295
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:13,360
I'm out there saying look this is you're gonna what you're gonna pursue be prepared to deal

296
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:19,320
with these things and the career that I once had is not the career that's available right

297
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:25,000
now and I if it's gonna if the pendulum is gonna swing back well it's gonna take a long

298
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:32,280
time to get there it's gonna take a long time so you know and I don't know how much different

299
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,840
the fire industry is from the police.

300
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:42,200
I know that they're having they're both both entities are having very similar recruitment

301
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,960
challenges unlike anything I have ever seen and we get into the the backgrounds that we

302
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:55,880
do for fire we'll go a little more into that but it's just I'm in awe of what's going on

303
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,240
with the recruitment stuff it's ridiculous.

304
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,280
Well talk to me about the environment that you entered then so how how competitive it

305
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:09,380
was it and then how were you received by your community back then?

306
00:23:09,380 --> 00:23:12,000
With regard to what I'm doing now or?

307
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,560
The policing when you first walked in.

308
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:23,360
When I started on the police department it was absolutely everything that I had ever

309
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:28,600
dreamed of I mean it was I would have done the job for free I couldn't believe that they

310
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:34,360
were paying me to do it you know but you're talking about a day when you would have an

311
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:40,880
agency that was giving a test and hiring three people and you would have 400 people show

312
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:48,120
up to take the test you know now you've got today you've got and this goes for the fireside

313
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:55,040
too you've got agencies that are giving a test look in the higher 20 and they get 16

314
00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:02,840
people show up to take it you know it's it's just completely completely changed and I you

315
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:10,600
know a lot of that is because of sometimes the agencies do this to themselves you know

316
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:16,600
they don't necessarily cherish and hold in high regard the great employees that they

317
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:23,080
have and when they mistreat them then if they don't think that the word gets out about that

318
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,960
they're they're absolutely wrong I mean back in the day look in the early days as a Chicago

319
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,600
police department I could have told you who was going on right everybody that went on

320
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,800
that agency was Irish and they were three four generations deep right my dad was a was

321
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,520
a policeman his dad was a policeman my great-grandfather was a policeman this is what I'm going to

322
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:54,680
do it's not like that anymore and but in the day when when I got on the job it was that

323
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,960
career gave me everything I could have possibly wanted up until the very end when the pendulum

324
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:07,560
started to swing hard the other way and I was already a lieutenant and the writing was

325
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,480
on the wall that it was just not somewhere I wanted to stay and and we were already doing

326
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:17,760
this with the the background stuff and some other investigative work on the side and it

327
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:24,000
just was a more rewarding fit for me to kind of transition out of that and and into what

328
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,160
I'm doing now.

329
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,000
So when you first progressed what were the kind of roles that you started finding yourself

330
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,800
in?

331
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:39,280
So I started as a patrolman which is where everybody starts for the most part I was in

332
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:47,920
that role for about seven or eight years and then I was through a government grant I was

333
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:55,040
tasked with developing the first tactical gang crimes unit in the agency so it went

334
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:02,400
into a plain clothes detail back in the day when I had hair to grow I grew my hair long

335
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:08,680
and you know had the earring and did the undercover buys and all of those things and I did that

336
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:17,560
for several years which was fantastic and then went into investigations and I was there

337
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:25,000
for about three years and then I got an opportunity of a lifetime to be a what they call a task

338
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,880
force officer so I was tasked out by my agency to what was United States Customs Service

339
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,440
at that time which is now Department of Homeland Security and I spent two and a half years

340
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:45,480
there working international money laundering and narcotics smuggling cases primarily money

341
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:54,000
laundering which was a wonderful experience but I swear to God in the two and a half years

342
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,840
that I was there I probably had 48 hours off the clock everything else was going nonstop

343
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:06,040
so it was again a job for a younger guy and it was designed to burn you out as quickly

344
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:11,920
as possible it could until you were begging to go back to your agency and ultimately that's

345
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:18,280
what happened and I got promoted shortly thereafter to sergeant and then about five or six years

346
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:26,880
later to lieutenant and I retired as a lieutenant in 2014.

347
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:33,160
If LinkedIn and my memory serves me right that customs assignment that you had spanned

348
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:39,580
9-11 so what was that you know what was the the environment before and did you see any

349
00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:44,520
change with all these changes in you know air travel and funding terrorism were there

350
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,320
any kind of interesting things that you observed as you progress past that date?

351
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:55,160
Yeah so actually I was on duty I was back on the street and I was as a sergeant at the

352
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:04,000
time I had just gone back to the agency and 9-11 happened and I was actually working and

353
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:11,120
I can remember from a local standpoint everybody gathering in the squad room and watching those

354
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:20,340
buildings come down and recognizing what position this put us in in the department but not having

355
00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:27,320
any clue what position to put the country in you know we were directed to go out and

356
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,680
stop at all the schools and let them know that we're here and we're safe and we're

357
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:37,560
watching over you and I had principals in tears going are we at war and I'm like to

358
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,240
be honest with you I don't know I don't have the answer to that question and I was in a

359
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:53,000
kind of a unique position that I still had my contacts at customs in fact my funny story

360
00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:02,440
my wife was my first partner at customs so we met there and she was home with our first

361
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:10,840
daughter at the time on maternity leave and you know they were just as ill prepared and

362
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,780
dumbfounded by the whole thing as the rest of us which doesn't say much for our country's

363
00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:23,680
defense system at the time but shortly thereafter it was a huge morph combining different agencies

364
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:32,020
together and you know trying to pool resources and to try to ensure that this kind of thing

365
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:37,800
would never happen again in reality it's more damage control than anything else but they

366
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,880
tried that the government I think tried to do a did a great job of trying to create the

367
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,280
illusion that they were going to change everything and everything was going to be okay going

368
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:52,720
forward we recognize their mistakes and we all know that you know all these years later

369
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,900
we watched the government make the same mistakes over and over again and do the same things

370
00:29:56,900 --> 00:30:02,400
and have the same problems and same challenges and they just tend to revert back to and I'm

371
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,960
talking speaking up for law enforcement the things that they've always done you know we've

372
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,960
always done it this way well it's never worked so let's continue to do that by all means

373
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:21,360
the task force concept was phenomenal the joint terrorism task force or JTTF great concept

374
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:28,120
it's the execution of all of those things that's always been a challenge talk to me

375
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:34,400
about the importance of collaboration between agencies I was talking to someone the other

376
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,460
day and we were referring to the the gotty documentary and when you see the barriers

377
00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:44,000
to him being arrested a lot sooner it was kind of egos between each of the agencies

378
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,640
involved in that case you've got pretty unique perspective with customs and then you know

379
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:57,120
documentary and post 9-11 what do you observe as far as the the times where it's done well

380
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,240
where agencies do collaborate and then those times where you know they're not collaborating

381
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,960
and then you know what is the takeaway from that how do we move forward and get people

382
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:12,080
to actually interact rather than let egos get in the way yeah and the biggest problem

383
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:19,560
is you hit it right on the head is the egos you know and it always has been I think when

384
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:26,560
you talk about the the task force officer program that the concept is is phenomenal

385
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:33,120
and it's amazing to see the differences between how the federal system operates and how the

386
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:40,280
local system operates for example when we were working these money laundering cases

387
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:47,280
if if I needed if I was involved in a case where we were buying a large stockpile of

388
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,280
narcotics for instance and you needed what would they would call flash money right you've

389
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,800
got to show some cash to the bad guys so that they believe that you're legitimate if I needed

390
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:04,840
a million dollars in a suitcase the fed could get that to me in a number of hours if I needed

391
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,320
a helicopter to follow people around or an airplane to follow people around I could get

392
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:16,200
that through them in a in a number of hours if we actually had someone in custody and

393
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:23,920
they needed a jail cell to put them in they had nothing so I'm the the the concept I'm

394
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,960
like you just gave me a helicopter and a million dollars you don't have a jail cell to lock

395
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,760
this guy up in no can we take them back to your agency and put them in there like yeah

396
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:43,120
you can but I said I'm just baffled that so the the simple basic gumshoe tasks that needed

397
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:49,680
to be accomplished were very well handled by the local officers because they did that

398
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:56,320
every day and conversely when you needed the big stuff that you know if somebody came to

399
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,320
me at my agency and said I need a million dollars in a suitcase for flash money I'd

400
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,280
be like we're out of luck there's no way you know if I can take a collection in the

401
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:11,480
squad room but we're not going to come close so it was it was really amazing at the differences

402
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,440
between the two and then when you actually brought them together and got them to finally

403
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:24,400
play nice together we did amazing things amazing things that is the exception unfortunately

404
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:31,360
usually particularly in law enforcement everybody wants to be in charge and it's usually the

405
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,160
younger folks that don't know any better right I want I'm running this operation this is

406
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,600
my call this is my case I was more than willing to give it to them like good it's also your

407
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:47,040
responsibility you tell me what you want me to do and I'll go do it right but the younger

408
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:54,160
guys coming into the the game wanted to be in control of this and interestingly enough

409
00:33:54,160 --> 00:34:02,240
we started to see this when we started post 9-eleven when police and fire departments

410
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,560
started to do a little more training together it wasn't so much the egos that we're getting

411
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:14,120
in the way it was lack of communication the ability to talk to each other on a something

412
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:23,940
as simple as a common radio band was a mess it was a complete mess so you've got first

413
00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:27,660
responders doing one thing without other first responders knowing what they're doing you've

414
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:32,200
got different agencies coming together because I heard something on the radio and figured

415
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,240
you guys might be able to use my help guys showing up in plain clothes because they've

416
00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:42,000
got a radio at home and they're grabbing their gun and running to the scene it was it was

417
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:50,400
a mess and to this day I think that the lack of communication between agencies is an even

418
00:34:50,400 --> 00:35:00,240
bigger problem than the ego thing and I just don't see it getting any better I mean it's

419
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:03,680
to the point where it's dangerous because a lot of times you see these events that turn

420
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,000
to being a mess and it all boils down to the same thing you guys weren't talking to each

421
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,240
other nobody knew what the other one was doing.

422
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:17,520
How do we get here? Why is that such a problem? Because we see it and I've seen it in my career

423
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,520
you know I've argued on dispatch to get an engine sent to a fire when I'm on a rescue

424
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,480
I'm on the EMS in that moment you know and they're telling me oh it's not our jurisdiction

425
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,920
it's the city of Orlando or vice versa I can see the fire station just send them and then

426
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,280
you like right here police and fire not playing together county and city not playing together

427
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,960
how has that always been a case is it something that we've we've just been hiding from for

428
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,760
a long time or has this got worse as maybe you know the the lack of leadership is starting

429
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,080
to get more prevalent in our professions.

430
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:54,800
Yeah and I think it's all it has always been there I think it's getting worse you know

431
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:04,320
and it's going to take leadership on all all levels to step up and say look we know what

432
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:12,560
the problem is we're going to fix it you know if you took several like-minded agency heads

433
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:18,600
both from fire and police and brought them together and locked them in a room for a day

434
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,680
and said clear your head and let's work on solving the problem by the end of the day

435
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:30,000
they would come out with a solution now execution of the solution or implementation may be an

436
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,420
issue because you're talking about money and buying equipment and changing rules and regulations

437
00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:41,960
and new policies and practices and procedures but started to see some changes that were

438
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,200
giving me some hope at one point with the development of the rescue task force concept

439
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,840
which is something that I'm sure that you and most of your listeners are are familiar

440
00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,760
with the idea that you would take firefighters and police officers and almost cross train

441
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:07,040
them so that they know what the responsibilities of each one is and we can enhance each other's

442
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:14,320
responsibilities is a concept that just makes perfect sense you know the days we used to

443
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:19,640
when we had an accident for instance that we were working and the fire trucks and the

444
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,000
ambulances would roll up we used to refer to them a lot of times as the evidence eradication

445
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:31,560
team because they would drive those rigs over the debris field because they're not looking

446
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,600
for the debris field who are they looking for the injured parties they've got a job

447
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:41,360
to do right so something as simple as saying hey let's have a meeting so you understand

448
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:47,320
what's important to us and we understand what's important to you we'll clear a lane for you

449
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,000
to park your rigs when you arrive on the scene watch for us to wave you into those lanes

450
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,660
so you can get your people out of there as quick as possible without damaging the evidence

451
00:37:57,660 --> 00:38:03,960
that we're so desperately trying to preserve and you know just those types of conversations

452
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,000
and then implementation of it's not enough to just talk about I mean you actually got

453
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,320
to do it.

454
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,520
Absolutely well speaking of interaction between FD and PD I know the active shooter world

455
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,720
is something that you specialize in too so yeah there's all these different conversations

456
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:25,080
obviously all these different kind of philosophies on how especially our schools how we keep them

457
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:30,240
safer what are some of the the kind of truth sort of arisen through all your work in that

458
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:31,240
area?

459
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:37,760
Yeah so this is an area that I'm I'm extremely passionate about and for a number of reasons

460
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:46,520
and my journey to the epiphany and and getting to be very passionate about this is is a little

461
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:54,280
bit of a lengthy one but I was on the department that I was a member of for 24 years was a

462
00:38:54,280 --> 00:39:00,400
smaller smaller agency we're just outside the city of Chicago but we tried to make really

463
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,720
good use of the resources that we had so we weren't big enough to have what we call what

464
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:11,160
you would call a full-time SWAT team like Chicago and New York or LA but we had what

465
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:17,040
we called our high-risk entry team which was a smaller group of officers that were trained

466
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,920
in specialty entries and those types of things of which I was a member of that team it was

467
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:30,680
about a six-man and at some point six it was a mixed bed we had males and females in there

468
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:39,060
and we spent an ungodly amount of time training and when the active shooter thing started

469
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:45,760
to come into play and we were training in the schools and as we were doing our training

470
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:51,240
I'm looking at what we're doing and we're supposed to be there training the employees

471
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:56,160
and the students in the schools and the reality of it was we were there training ourselves

472
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,600
they were getting nothing they were they were our puppets and role players they did exactly

473
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:07,160
what we told them to do but they learned nothing from it and I thought if you look at the average

474
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,520
response time for law enforcement to arrive at a mess like this and the number of people

475
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,760
that are killed and how quickly they're killed we're not doing anybody any good here but

476
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,160
of course when you're on the job and this is your job and you tell somebody that they

477
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,160
don't want to hear it so I'm quickly shut up and do your training and keep your mouth

478
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:35,160
shut and you know when I got out of law enforcement I was like I have a solution that's better

479
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,240
for you folks plus I had two daughters that were in the school system and you know I knew

480
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:45,880
what the schools were doing or not doing they were having local law enforcement come in

481
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:51,120
and do some training for them so they can simply check the box and I knew it was putting

482
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,520
my kids at risk and I said I'm not I'm not going to do this anymore so this active shooter

483
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:04,400
thing was a discussion around our dinner table on a nightly basis my two daughters by the

484
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,200
time they graduated high school were better trained than any staff member in that school

485
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:15,260
on what to do with an active shooter event and I'm very proud of that I'm proud of them

486
00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:21,240
for it you know but you know I tell people all the time when we do these active shooter

487
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,920
trainings said if you've got kids in the school system sit them down and talk to them about

488
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:31,680
what they're being told to do and how they're doing it and if you know it to be not the

489
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,080
right solution then you train your kids because it matters most to you whether or not they

490
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:45,040
come home so I'm very disappointed in the way that the schools and law enforcement handles

491
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,800
these things time and time again I see the same mistakes made they are making some strides

492
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:59,160
but they're so slow and they're so miniscule you know just in order to be effective they

493
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:04,480
really need to step up their game it needs to be something taught at an academy level

494
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:11,600
that is standardized across the entire United States I should be able to as a Chicago police

495
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:18,640
officer respond with an LA county sheriff to an active shooter event in the school and

496
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:24,660
we all know and are operating under the same protocols standard across the board same thing

497
00:42:24,660 --> 00:42:29,880
with the fire departments and until we get to that point this what we're going to have

498
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:37,020
is controlled chaos at those events it's interesting because you see you know we're presented a

499
00:42:37,020 --> 00:42:41,680
solution and a good example is John Spiro is a firefighter he was in Aurora and one

500
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,960
of the guys that responded to that shooting and we have like the triage you know and this

501
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,640
there's you know the the things that we look for and then that's supposed to help us decide

502
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,920
if they're deceased if they're red if they're yellow but as he was pointing out when you've

503
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,160
got tear gas and you've got people running for their lives that changes the presentation

504
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,880
of a person now it's in the dark and now you can't tell skin color or you know all these

505
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,780
other things and there's the same with the safe training that we did you know it's kind

506
00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:15,240
of a rescue task force thing that whole kind of latching on and you know in theory is great

507
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:20,040
but it works in a narrow hallway with classrooms the moment you put it into a different building

508
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,440
or an exterior setting it doesn't work either so I think and I'm hearing people talking

509
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:31,480
about you know when they are assigned the the the ballistic best and the helmets it's

510
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,800
one size fits all and so you hear you know all these drills and the helmets falling off

511
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,200
and you know the person can't even see past the vest when they're sitting down so I feel

512
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,520
like there's a lot of box checking where they're like oh we did it we did safe training we're

513
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:49,760
good now rather than actually really kind of diving in properly and then at the same

514
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,400
time equally as importantly not doing it in a way where you're exposing our children to

515
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,520
this rehearsed murder over and over and over again because we're traumatizing them at the

516
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:08,040
same time yeah yeah and it's um you know I'll have I'll share a story with you so my my

517
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:17,640
daughter I have two daughters um and my oldest probably got these these speeches more and

518
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:25,120
more than than the younger younger one did but um she you know when the schools have

519
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,800
an event somewhere anywhere in the country typically the the other schools in the country

520
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,800
their response is pretty standardized right we're going to have an assembly tomorrow to

521
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:39,560
talk about the event at Columbine High School and we're going to all hold hands and sing

522
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:45,600
kumbaya not that that's the wrong thing um and then I'm going to assure you that this

523
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,260
could never happen at our school because we have a plan in place and they would leave

524
00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:58,820
it at that and in the middle of one of such presentation my daughter interestingly enough

525
00:44:58,820 --> 00:45:06,760
she's she's actually a quiet kid um kind of a bookworm nerdy type of kid but she raises

526
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:13,840
her hand in the middle of this auditorium and says what's your plan she goes I don't

527
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,480
want to know what your plan is for me I already know that she said what is your plan if you're

528
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:24,680
walking down the hall and you encounter the shooter face to face what are you going to

529
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:32,800
do and he said well I'm gonna call 911 and she goes you're dead you're dead and it the

530
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:39,440
whole auditorium erupts in applause and the two teachers sitting behind her kind of lean

531
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:46,200
over and whisper to each other damn right he's dead so it's like you get this junior

532
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:53,560
in high school who says the quiet part out loud that everybody already knows and is thinking

533
00:45:53,560 --> 00:46:01,040
you know the the media and those people that have control over our lives in these institutions

534
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:07,840
keep feeding us the emperor's new clothes right nobody's looking at it going this guy's

535
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:14,960
naked he's not wearing any it's not delicate robes he's it is what it is so the fact that

536
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:20,520
she uh brought that to everybody's attention was kind of kind of interesting but it doesn't

537
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:27,120
change things I mean the schools in general continue to go for the box check and spoonfeed

538
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:35,980
these kids um a lot of bs the lockdowns and whatnot if my kid locked down in her classroom

539
00:46:35,980 --> 00:46:39,880
when there was a window right next to him that she could have gotten out of and gotten

540
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:46,960
away and got killed because of it I would be beside myself right sometimes you can't

541
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:53,800
overlook common sense you know and they've done a great job of indoctrinating our kids

542
00:46:53,800 --> 00:47:01,040
to do just that so it's it's a dangerous situation it really is I had a terrifying experience

543
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,480
I took my son for his annual doctor's visit when he was in elementary school and I'm literally

544
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,080
at the front desk signing him back in all of a sudden everyone starts moving I'm like

545
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:16,540
what the hell is going on and uh they had a code red a legit code red the first one

546
00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:20,800
that they ever had and so they're like Mr. Gearing sorry you're gonna have to come come

547
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,200
in there's a little kind of office behind the desk and you have to come in here and

548
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,600
so I got to see it as a first responder I got to be a parent watching what it's like

549
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,840
for these teachers for these children and they are so vulnerable and there was zero

550
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,360
communication and I get it you know how are you going to disseminate all that amongst

551
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,360
the school of you know a thousand or whatever it was but I was literally in there and it

552
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,040
was kind of like where the photocopier was in all those areas and there was one of those

553
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,560
paper guillotines and I was looking at the guillotine go I'm gonna have to snap that

554
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:53,600
off and if someone comes in you know I mean there's snowballs chance in hell but that's

555
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,520
all we've got right and it really illustrated how important it was for the SRO and I just

556
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:05,560
interviewed Dave Grossman again for the third time and when you hear about all these incidences

557
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:12,280
when someone has actually addressed the shooter almost every single time they're stopped because

558
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,980
that's not in most of these children's minds as they're playing this kind of almost video

559
00:48:15,980 --> 00:48:20,680
game where they are the predator and the prey just scattering everyone now someone whether

560
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,320
it's just with words or with a weapon they they stop them more often than not they drop

561
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,680
the weapon so I think for me having seen the vulnerability and not being a firearm in that

562
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,160
moment and what happened there it was a legitimate threat but the guy was a disgruntled ex of

563
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:41,440
one of the parents he threatened to come to school and didn't actually come to the school

564
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:47,320
but if there had been an SRO there with a weapon obviously it would have completely

565
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:53,880
changed it but a classroom you know a school with no opposition to a firearm you know I

566
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,160
mean you got a firefighter running at someone with a guillotine is your best your best shot

567
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:06,800
so to me that SRO that that officer in every school is the bare minimum I think to at least

568
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:12,600
create a deterrent so most of these shooters don't even try in the first place yeah and

569
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:19,160
you know it's interesting because the SRO positions a lot of times are given to those

570
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:29,200
individuals that are in the twilight of their career or you know less than stellar individuals

571
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,760
on the street so they're they're moved into this position and the reality of it is those

572
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,600
people that hold those positions probably need more training than the average officer

573
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,320
on the street I mean do you realize what you're asking these guys to do if you've got an active

574
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:51,760
shooter in a school and you've got an SRO armed with an AR-15 and he is the defense

575
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,840
the school is absolute chaos you've got kids running all over the place it's and now you've

576
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:05,120
got to find that one individual that is the the target of your problem if you will and

577
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:12,720
stop it I mean it's just an incredible ask of any human being and I think that the the

578
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:19,520
the training for these SROs should be highly specialized and it's not it's not that big

579
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,600
of a deal I mean there are all kinds of classes that will train you on how to do these things

580
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,160
and how to deal with send them to the classes if they're going to be effective in this position

581
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:35,240
you're going to have to train them to do so but you know again budgetary restraints and

582
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:40,160
you know parents that are I don't want to scare my kids I don't want you know somebody

583
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:45,520
running around with the an officer in the school with a gun and okay well what what

584
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:51,040
is the the other choice I mean let's look at what the alternative is here you know this

585
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:56,240
is the world we live in I didn't create it but boy we got to deal with it yeah I experienced

586
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:00,920
in my son's middle school what happens when the wrong person is in SRO position and not

587
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,840
so much from a shooter point of view just I mean I won't even get into it because it's

588
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,240
a story I've told many times but they can do a lot of damage too because when they're

589
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:14,280
not obviously protecting from a school shooter they are interacting with these kids so you

590
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,800
know and I've had a few people on here that's in in good police programs that's where they

591
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,040
send some of their best and obviously they're going to rotate you want to get out there

592
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,280
on the streets and do your job too but they they hold their SROs to a high level and just

593
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,280
like you said I think a lot of departments it's kind of like you know one foot out the

594
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,320
door type one or if even someone's even a problem I would just put them with the kids

595
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,080
well that's all well and good until you get a valde until you get parkland and when they're

596
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:47,000
called upon they drop the ball and children die yes yeah I you valde you know and I get

597
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:53,240
questions about this all the time I don't you know my days of having to or feeling obligated

598
00:51:53,240 --> 00:52:00,440
to defend police officers is done you know I call it the way it is if you screw it up

599
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,320
I'm going to tell you you screwed it up I'm to have an incident like you valde in today's

600
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:10,720
day and age I sat there with my chin on the floor I thought what are these people doing

601
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:16,120
you know in the days when I was on the the rescue task force if we had an incident like

602
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,640
that you get a supervisor saying for right now we're going to stand down we would have

603
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,560
handcuffed him and sat him on the floor and walked right past him there's no way and yet

604
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,000
we had all of these officers going well he said we're going to stand down we're going

605
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,560
to stand down and I figured some of them would be charged criminally in the end and that's

606
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,720
that's where we're at now plenty of them are being charged and probably appropriately

607
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:47,080
so but just just a sad state of affairs and until the agency heads march in there and

608
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:52,280
say and you know I know what society is saying I know you guys are not happy about this but

609
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,960
we're going to control this because we're trained to control this and that's just the

610
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,760
way it is and until that happens we're going to have we're going to see these incidents

611
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:01,760
time and time again.

612
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,120
Well that's a good segue into you know what we're going to talk about next what I'm seeing

613
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:12,000
and what you touched on before and we'll take a deeper dive into it is that a lot of these

614
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:18,280
were happening and and these people in uniform were hired when there was still a high demand

615
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,680
you know it was very competitive and we were testing against thousands of people for a

616
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:27,440
handful of spots as we've seen this decline now the bar is getting lower and lower and

617
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,880
where you used to take you know five ten percent of a list now you're taking eighty five percent

618
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:36,400
of the list and so the probability of exactly what we're talking about has increased and

619
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,860
so I mean I've heard firefighters say well if it's a school shoot and I'm not going

620
00:53:39,860 --> 00:53:44,280
in that's not what I'm paid for that's the wrong kind of human being we were in a uniform

621
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,960
I'm sorry I know we don't carry a gun we're not going to go running in when they're when

622
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,880
they're blasting but the moment there's a warm zone you're sure as shit that we're

623
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,520
going to go in there and do whatever we can to get those kids out so you've got a very

624
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,760
unique perspective you got into the world of you know background checks talk to me through

625
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:06,360
this unique lens that you have as far as the actual numbers that you've seen in this declining

626
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:13,760
recruitment crisis in your profession of mine yeah and it's it's on both sides probably

627
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:20,080
worse and on the law enforcement side than it is in the fire side but both have declined

628
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:28,000
so rapidly and so drastically I sometimes I can't keep my head on straight so cls background

629
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:34,320
investigations we've always specialized in backgrounds for public service police and

630
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:41,000
fire and that's because we've got that's our background we we come from that area and we

631
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:49,280
know what it takes to fill those roles properly so with that perspective we I'm confident

632
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:56,640
in saying that we do this better than anybody else in the country for fire and police we

633
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:11,560
started the company in 2000 and I would say from 2000 to 2016 17 fire and police backgrounds

634
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:20,600
was probably about 25 percent of our business others were everything from tenancy screening

635
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:26,640
to donut clerks I mean we did backgrounds for just about everything today and I would

636
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:33,120
say the last five six years police and fire backgrounds is about 85 percent of our business

637
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:42,600
so much so that we don't actively pursue anything except public service backgrounds I'm seeing

638
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:51,360
agencies that are in a perpetual state of testing constantly some of the fire agencies

639
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:59,000
that we do work for I'll call and say I need to speak to Jeff Smith and they're like you

640
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,800
know what he can't come to the phone right now he's driving the ambulance today so you've

641
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,760
got chiefs out there driving the ambulance because they don't have enough people to staff

642
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:15,200
their their agency it's unlike anything that I've ever seen and the candidates that are

643
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:22,440
coming through you know you've got people that are applying to be full-time firefighters

644
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:27,760
that have extensive criminal histories you've got people that are admitting to extensive

645
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,520
recreational drug use and I'm not talking about you know smoking a little weed here

646
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:38,200
and there I'm talking about cocaine and LSD and mushrooms all during the time frame when

647
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:47,480
they were on the job for another agency so the it's not just the the the decline of people

648
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:52,360
that are interested but those people that are showing some interest the decline of the

649
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:58,720
individuals that are presenting themselves for consideration is just nauseating I've

650
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:07,100
never seen anything like it and unfortunately you know you see agencies and agency heads

651
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:13,120
so desperate to fill their rosters that they start to dial back their requirements and

652
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:19,160
they're like well maybe we'll give this guy another shot like he just admitted to you

653
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:24,640
know cocaine use six months ago how do you how do you hire this guy and say we're going

654
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:30,620
to give him a shot it's it just baffles me but I get it they're just so desperate for

655
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:36,720
people and nothing seems to be primarily in law enforcement but even on the fire side

656
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:44,280
nothing seems to be enticing the good people in so you might have some some insight that

657
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:49,200
that I can share because it's been something else.

658
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:54,240
As we touched on earlier and obviously with you being Chicago I have one of your brother

659
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,380
police officers Wynn I'm trying to remember his last name now it's fallen out my head

660
00:57:58,380 --> 00:58:02,920
but he really opened up about the city of Chicago and the pendulum swinging and the

661
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,960
organizational betrayal and you know the mass exodus from that particular department and

662
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:12,000
it's understandable and anyone watches the news around that kind of you know disastrous

663
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:19,280
2022-2022 era I mean it was just complete politicking there was no common sense middle

664
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:25,440
ground loyalty at all in my profession though you know even though it's arguably almost

665
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,960
what they call virtue signaling you know like thank you for your service but then when it

666
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:34,680
comes to hiring firefighters there's no support anywhere what I've realized is for us it's

667
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:39,840
our actual work environment that's really shot us in the foot and the Wall Street Journal

668
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:46,520
just did an article I shared a couple weeks ago the generation now Gen Z are actually

669
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,440
leaning into the trades and the reason being you've got this information age now where

670
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,440
everything is accessible and as you said earlier you can research different departments you

671
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,280
know what are their work weeks how much do they pay what are their benefits and they're

672
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,000
looking at college and going wow so 30 40 50 thousand dollars in debt and I get a piece

673
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:09,480
of paper doesn't guarantee me a job that sounds terrible and so they look at you know our

674
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:14,200
professions and they look at the fire to go 56 hours of work a week and then the mandatory

675
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,760
overtime makes it an 80 hour work week and then you've got the pay which you know seems

676
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,920
good but then when you divide it by 56 actually isn't very good at all you know and then you

677
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,480
look at the if you google is it healthy to be a firefighter which I did the other day

678
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:32,760
it says cancer suicide divorce all the things so these young people are getting the whole

679
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,400
picture when you came on you would have done it for free when I came on I forgot about

680
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,320
this I was just talking about this the other day they didn't tell us what the salary was

681
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,320
for my first apartment I went in completely blind and it was shit when we finally found

682
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:50,240
out but that's how competitive it was we just wanted to do the job now these people are

683
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,640
understanding okay this is what the entirety of the job looks like and it's an honorable

684
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,880
honorable profession it's a calling but these young people they value their mental health

685
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:04,480
they value their physical health and they value their relationships so looking at my

686
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,240
profession they're like I love the calling but that's just not going to work I want to

687
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,440
have you know a healthy family I want to stay married I want to have a good relationship

688
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:19,680
with my kids so that is the thing but what's beautiful in Florida is now they're starting

689
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:25,000
to be a shift where the most progressive departments are understanding that and they're moving

690
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:30,760
to a 42-hour work week which all you're doing is taking the money that you're bleeding downstream

691
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,640
and you're investing it in the front hiring more firefighters and filling all those vacant

692
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,560
spots and they're filled with these young people that are starting to come to our departments

693
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,640
now because they're like they get it they actually value their people so even though

694
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:47,720
there's an element of that in law enforcement I think that's where yours and mine are different

695
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:54,440
is we have that public support it's our lack of leadership and the devolution of our working

696
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:59,240
environment that's hurt our recruitment our retention so the beautiful thing is you fix

697
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:04,280
those things you don't need for the media to turn around on their opinion on fire we're

698
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:09,840
already somewhat loved so if we fix that as these departments in Florida have already

699
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:16,340
seen now people start lining up outside your door and wanting to work for you again interesting

700
01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:25,160
yeah it's um you know and when I was at this uh doing this presentation at this conference

701
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:30,440
um they had a psychologist there who actually co-presented with me for a portion of it and

702
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:39,880
he was talking about what people that go into the fire industry um when when interviewed

703
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:47,160
and asked what's what's your draw a lot of them said that it was the camaraderie whether

704
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:52,240
it's perceived or something that they've experienced at another agency they they were seeking out

705
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:58,480
that brotherhood and grant it whether it's police or fire at least back in the day there

706
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:05,720
was nothing like it right it was something that um you couldn't get anywhere else and

707
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:11,640
you couldn't really explain it to somebody that had not done it and I think that the

708
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:19,320
people that are seeking that out are getting fewer and further between right um like you

709
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:25,400
said the the younger folks are they have other desires other things that it's not so much

710
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:31,480
how much time I spend at work and what my work life is like it's how much time are you

711
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:36,400
going to give me away from work so I can do the things that I want to do and spend time

712
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:41,560
with my family or whatever the case may be um so it's a different dynamic it's a different

713
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:47,720
type of person but if you're telling me that you're starting to see those people that are

714
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:54,400
more dedicated to the the service coming back in that's actually a breath of fresh air um

715
01:02:54,400 --> 01:03:01,040
and I I really hope that it it uh you know filters through across the country but took

716
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,560
us a long time to get here and it's going to take a long time to get back you know well

717
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,840
I think interesting though like you said around 2016 is when you had that jump and I'm assuming

718
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:14,480
that you had mostly first responders because so many agencies were were hiring and doing

719
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:20,360
background checks now but it's about 10 years that's it 10 years ago it was still really

720
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,480
competitive probably 20 years ago is even more competitive but 10 years we were still

721
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:30,120
in a good place so arguably it's descended incredibly quickly so I think that we can

722
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,480
you know the beauty of a crisis is you're forced to actually make change and Florida

723
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,480
we've we were in kind of a beginning of a revolution now last year seven fire departments

724
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,720
went to this new schedule the year before one did and then they kind of broke the seal

725
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:47,040
and then and I was just presenting of a local county the other day who I'm hoping they're

726
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,000
going to make the move to so it really is exciting because those people are out there

727
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:56,280
like I said these the trades are being lent into by these young people they want to work

728
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:01,520
with their hands but that work life balance and I know it's kind of a cliche term but

729
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:06,080
we just destroyed our first responders I mean we just worked to get to the ground so and

730
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:10,400
you know that camaraderie and that brotherhood and that sisterhood a thousand percent like

731
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:17,680
my my crew truck one from Anaheim I got married I think 10 years after I left Anaheim if I'm

732
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:23,260
not mistaken and all my best men were were from there so you know that that's that's

733
01:04:23,260 --> 01:04:28,040
the kind of bond that you get so your job is the job like it hasn't changed you know

734
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:33,240
it's an it's an amazing calling but you have to create an environment that makes a cohesive

735
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,840
group and I think that when the bar is lowered you don't get that shared suffering you don't

736
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:41,880
get that cohesion when you have a lot of people testing you can put that bar back high where

737
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:46,520
it's supposed to be and if you go through that crucible you've earned your place in

738
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:51,920
that department then yes absolutely absolutely and when you've got people that you're you

739
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:57,000
know I've been on on the phone like I said with with chiefs recently and as I'm discussing

740
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:04,160
these applicants with them I can actually see them lowering the bar during our phone

741
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:09,480
conversation saying well maybe we're going to give this guy a shot and I'm thinking but

742
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:14,740
what does that do the rest of the apples in the barrel you know you're bringing this person

743
01:05:14,740 --> 01:05:19,440
in he's going to be toxic to the agency the agency that he's leaving can't wait to get

744
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:24,080
rid of them I had the chief over there say listen I'm not going to tell him this but

745
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:30,240
if they hire this guy I'm going to send pizzas over for the department because he's my biggest

746
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:35,080
headache so they're looking to get rid of them and they're passing the buck on to somebody

747
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:40,560
else you know the the departments that we have that are the most successful are the

748
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:45,800
ones that dig their heels in and say look I am not lowering my standards these are the

749
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,920
standards we've had in fact while everybody else is lowering their standards I am going

750
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:57,240
to raise mine because I want people to come to my agency not because of the pay not because

751
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:02,680
of the vacation time but because they have heard from their peers that this is the best

752
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:07,680
agency in the state to work for that's what I want and I want them beaten down my door

753
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:13,560
to get here and those are the ones that seem to have the least problems with with their

754
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:20,480
employees so it's and it's sometimes they lose a lot of people as a result of it but

755
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:25,120
are you losing a lot of people or are you losing a lot of problems right if you're not

756
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,720
bringing them in to begin with you're probably losing the problems that you would have later

757
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:33,880
on there was a perfect example anaheim and I've worked for some great agencies but anaheim

758
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:39,120
their bar was super high and I actually did the the c-pat which is our physical test when

759
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,840
I was getting ready to move back east and I wanted to you know being humble I'm like

760
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,880
well let me make sure I can do really well on this when I go and test I perform well

761
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:51,480
and get myself you know high on that list and the guys running it said they'd never

762
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:57,280
met a guy that never left anaheim fire department before and anaheim when you got hired I tested

763
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:02,480
against a thousand people for 30 spots and when you got hired every single class they

764
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:07,640
would lose 25 percent of their guys on probation by the end of the year through attrition because

765
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,980
the bar was there and if you didn't meet it they you know no hard feelings there's lots

766
01:07:11,980 --> 01:07:16,760
of other agencies that will take you but you're just not cut out for anaheim conversely the

767
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:22,840
last place I worked at the bar was in a trench and you know you would have you know let's

768
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:28,520
say 30 spots and I'm not exaggerating maybe 40 35 people will be testing and on paper

769
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:32,800
they had a better work week and some other things but when it came to actually doing

770
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,600
the job and how they were perceived it was the polar opposite and there were some great

771
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:41,960
people within that department but that was despite the department not because of it yeah

772
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:50,040
yeah and when you talk about the bar being so high that you know getting the position

773
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:56,960
is like getting accepted as and making it through naval you know navy seal training

774
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:02,720
school those are the people I want responding to my house right when I'm calling for help

775
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:07,640
because my my family member is down having a heart attack and I'm in panic mode and I

776
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:13,920
can't perform CPR I want somebody there that is that has really really competed for that

777
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:20,680
job really wants to be there and is going to serve me well and when we start to get

778
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:26,960
a pool of those individuals coming back into the into our midst then we're going to turn

779
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:32,920
this whole thing around you know give you an example you know Chicago police department

780
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:39,760
they give a test every couple of years I think they're testing every year now but they typically

781
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:46,200
when they give a written exam we'll get 35 to 40,000 applicants come out to take that

782
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:56,080
test the last one they did they had 700 it's crazy 700 yeah and and out of that 700 my

783
01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:03,800
what I was told by my sources is 50% of them would never pass the background so I mean

784
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:10,560
that's what you're left with it's just it's it's very it's not good for society as a whole

785
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:17,120
but you know I'm hoping that we can at least do our part to help to make sure that when

786
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:24,240
you hire a firefighter that you know my philosophy is this when you send me an applicant say

787
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:31,480
do a background on this individual male female doesn't make any difference to me our system

788
01:09:31,480 --> 01:09:36,640
is very blind but it is my job to find a reason why you should not hire that person and if

789
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:43,640
I can't then you might be on the road to having a good employee it's just that simple.

790
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:48,280
One of the pushbacks I get as well you know we can't even afford you know people now how

791
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:53,400
are we going to afford another shift and when again it's it's pretty sad that I'm able to

792
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:58,360
figure this out because I'm not an intelligent guy at all but if you look at just the basic

793
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:02,840
you know economy there's a term false economy you know if you look downstream and you've

794
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:08,360
got 25% of your department is vacant so you're filling it with overtime at time and a half

795
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:13,320
and now you're forcing your people to work 80 hour work weeks to fill those spots and

796
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:17,280
then you have this as we said this revolving door when it comes to recruitment and retention

797
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:21,640
so you're spending 20 grand for every single person you hire who two three years walks

798
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:26,640
out the back door there are 10 in Chicago for example will be hundreds of millions in

799
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:32,220
locally here it's tens of millions of dollars that in itself has been enough to justify

800
01:10:32,220 --> 01:10:36,880
most departments saying okay enough is enough let's take that money let's let's hire another

801
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,960
shift now we have four shifts and now it's a 42 hour work week let's bring these people

802
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:46,320
in you just before we hit record though gave me another really interesting statistic as

803
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:51,720
far as the financial element because sadly as much as I would love to think that a lot

804
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:55,840
of these leaders care when you know our men and women pass away and that will be enough

805
01:10:55,840 --> 01:11:01,360
to make change usually it's dollars and cents that actually gets people's attention so talk

806
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:06,160
to me about the the cost that you discovered of every single bad apple trying to get rid

807
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:07,560
of them in a department.

808
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:13,480
Yeah and I knew when I presented the question that it was going to be that the number was

809
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:21,480
going to be high I guess that the number that I was that I received from the masses was

810
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:27,840
higher than I expected that it would be but it still didn't surprise me so during a presentation

811
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:36,360
that I was doing in a room full of fire chiefs and upper management for the agencies as well

812
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:41,920
as commissioners and trustees and whatnot the question I asked was for those of you

813
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:48,800
that have had a bad hire what was the cost associated with getting that hire terminated

814
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:55,000
from the agency or removing getting them separated and I didn't want details of the incident

815
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,800
I didn't want names I just wanted a dollar figure and the dollar figure that was thrown

816
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:07,100
out to me was five hundred thousand dollars now I don't know how long it took them because

817
01:12:07,100 --> 01:12:12,600
no matter what the dollar figure is if you take the time component which is probably

818
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:19,960
years to get this person removed from or separated from the agency you could probably take that

819
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:25,680
figure and triple it easily because he or she is not at work so again like you said

820
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:33,280
you're filling his slot with overtime to accommodate the needs of the agency perhaps he's off on

821
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:38,920
some kind of workman's comp claim and now you know your insurance company is paying

822
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:43,440
to have him followed around and attorney's fees and all of those types of things that

823
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:49,080
drag on for years and in the meantime what it's doing to everybody else that works there

824
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:53,360
is poisoning the other apples in the barrel because this is what they see is this the

825
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:57,760
agency I want to work with is this is this where I want to make my career for the next

826
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:04,320
twenty five years and the answer is no if this is the way you handle these things no

827
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:08,280
if this is what you're going to hire and these are going to be my co-workers I don't want

828
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:13,200
to stay here and then they start testing and looking elsewhere and it becomes this vicious

829
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:20,800
cycle so it was pretty interesting to see and I ended up talking to the individual that

830
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:27,000
threw the number out after the presentation and because then they asked you know what

831
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:35,680
is the cost to do a properly conducted background I said it pales in comparison but ultimately

832
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,160
it would have been had they done things the right way they would have never hired this

833
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,960
individual they would have known that there was a problem and they wouldn't have brought

834
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,200
him out so it's a lot of money.

835
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:51,200
It is and again I'm not an economist but I mean if you just look downstream I mean it's

836
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:55,480
so obvious you know and then now you have these other departments that have done it

837
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:59,560
that will gladly say here's where we found it you know and that's not even counting if

838
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:04,240
you imagine a healthier workforce the workman's comp premium is going to come down the medical

839
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:08,440
disability payments are going to come down line of duty death god forbid is going to

840
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:12,960
come down lawsuits from when we make mistakes because you not only hired the wrong person

841
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,620
but you know in other cases you've got great firefighters but they're so damn sleep deprived

842
01:14:17,620 --> 01:14:21,560
you know the police officer that has the wreck in the intersection or you know does happen

843
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,720
to shoot the the teen that's reaching for his driving license because he's so exhausted

844
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,440
and has been forced to do another shift that he thinks he's going for a gun I mean these

845
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:34,800
are all dollar amounts as well so there's so much money downstream that we can tap into

846
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:40,320
but you just have to understand or or even take a step back and think to ask for a forensic

847
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:43,840
analysis of the downstream cash.

848
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:50,120
Sure yeah yeah and like you said a lot of agencies don't that never even crosses their

849
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:56,880
mind now hopefully maybe maybe some of them are starting to wake up and and smell the

850
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:01,080
coffee a little bit and go hey you know what there's there's something to be said for this

851
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:05,600
what is it going to cost us long term just in in lawyers fees if you've got somebody

852
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:09,920
that you've got to separate from the department the first thing you're going to do is call

853
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:15,280
call the agency's attorney as soon as his phone rings the meter starts running I figure

854
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,560
when that guy throws out a figure of five hundred thousand dollars probably half of that is lawyers fees

855
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:26,080
and the other half was settlement fees to get the guy to resign right doesn't take into

856
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:31,400
account anything else that how what it did to the agency over the course of the time

857
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:35,800
that he was there the overtime that it cost to fill his slots all of those and I don't

858
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:40,560
know the details of the case it doesn't make any difference ultimately if you've got time

859
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:45,500
involved and you're generally never going to be able to whistle either a firefighter

860
01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:52,920
or a law enforcement officer in because they've got a lot of times union protections or civil

861
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:57,760
service protections and say as of tomorrow you no longer work here have a nice day it

862
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:05,160
doesn't work that way it is a long process to get them gone so once you factor all of

863
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:10,840
that in probably that five hundred thousand dollar figure was probably more like one point

864
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:16,000
two one point three would be my guess I saw an article it was thinking was on social media

865
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,840
but it was it was bouncing around recently and it was I don't think I even read the whole

866
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:24,880
thing but it showed how many police police recruits had died during I believe it was

867
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:31,160
the academy and again you know there's an opportunity to have those standards even at

868
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:36,080
the academy level for the safety of the recruit there's some people that just aren't ready

869
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:40,600
to do this yet you know it's my profession you're going in bunker gear you're climbing

870
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:45,200
stairs in Cumber you're going into burn buildings you know you climb in a hundred foot aerial

871
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:49,520
that's not an environment for someone who's ill prepared so this lowering of standards

872
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:54,840
is even making it dangerous for our young recruits in the first place sure sure and

873
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:59,600
I can remember back in the day and I'm sure it's no different now I mean the police in

874
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,800
the fire although when it comes to responding together don't necessarily communicate well

875
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:09,280
there still seems to be a common bond between them you know I would stop by the firehouse

876
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:14,440
in my jurisdiction all the time and talk to those guys and one of the the common threads

877
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:22,440
was that the fire department the the firefighters always thought that the police were kind of

878
01:17:22,440 --> 01:17:27,280
nuts for doing what they did for a living and conversely the same thing I'm like look

879
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:31,400
I'm not putting on 200 pounds worth of gear and running into a burning building with a

880
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:36,400
hose you are out of your mind but you know we each had a mutual respect for what the

881
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:42,840
other one did and it was just kind of funny you know to to see how that worked but you're

882
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:51,600
right I mean the the physical and you look at you know law enforcement on a daily basis

883
01:17:51,600 --> 01:18:00,720
they drive around and we always said it was 95 absolute boredom and five percent complete

884
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:09,060
adrenaline dump what other job does that right I mean you're stagnant in the squad car eating

885
01:18:09,060 --> 01:18:15,680
McDonald's french fries out of a bag on the seat next to you and and then 30 seconds later

886
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:21,640
you're you're jumping fences chained chasing some offender in a from an armed robbery who's

887
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:26,520
turning around with a pistol in his hand I mean it's the to go from zero to where you're

888
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:32,160
at and the same with the firefighters you're two o'clock in the morning sleeping in your

889
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:38,760
bunk and 30 seconds later you're trying to put your pants on outside this this fire rig

890
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:47,960
to to go run into a burning building I mean it's what it takes to do those jobs is a lot

891
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:52,960
and there are people out there that are willing to do it like you said it's truly a calling

892
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,280
we just got to find them again you know and we've got to find them and we've got to let

893
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:03,280
them know that this is a position that you earn it's not given to you you earn this if

894
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:07,720
you make it through probation and you're a member of this department damn it you deserve

895
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:12,720
to be here you earned it not because we had a hole in the roster and we needed to fill

896
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:18,880
it but because I trust you to save my life when shit hits the fan I've seen the fire

897
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:24,240
department leaning into hiring straight from high school now 18 year olds and when I've

898
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,560
spoken to a lot of the people in the kind of psychology and neuroscience world they've

899
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:32,520
said you know just how irresponsible that is that the young brain isn't ready for that

900
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:38,080
kind of trauma what is your perspective on you know coming from a profession where 21

901
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:45,640
is usually the hiring age on lowering that age in my profession well I don't know that's

902
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:54,440
a that's a good question I look at some of the the law enforcement people that I see

903
01:19:54,440 --> 01:20:01,280
coming on the job now at 21 and think you look like a 14 year old kid you know and you

904
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:05,680
got a gun strap to your side this just doesn't look right then I try to remember that I didn't

905
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:14,400
look any different when I first got the job either you know I'm not you you're asking

906
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:21,120
that to get into the psyche of the individual and I think it's it's really on a person by

907
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:29,520
person basis you know maybe there's there's I don't know that you can drop the age limit

908
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:35,240
automatically and say at 18 we're going to take you at 18 we're going to take you if

909
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:42,560
you pass these additional components or you have this additional training perhaps you

910
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:48,400
know not only does that tell you that they've had the additional training and those components

911
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:52,960
but that they've got the dedication to go through it right so if I've got an 18 year

912
01:20:52,960 --> 01:21:00,160
old kid and I would have done this when when I got on the job James is a policeman if they

913
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,720
had told me I needed to pitch a tent in the middle of winter on the front lawn of the

914
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:09,200
police department lived in it for a week I'd have been out there in 30 seconds right so

915
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:14,360
if you've got a kid that comes on and says I'm 18 I want to do this job I want to be

916
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:19,560
a firefighter I'm willing to take the extra classes go through the extra exams whatever

917
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:25,840
it takes I want to do this do I think that he or she should be excluded I think you'd

918
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:32,280
be sorely mistaken to do that because you're taking what what is potentially a great career

919
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,320
employee and saying you know what you got to wait a couple more years what's to say

920
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:41,080
he's going to wait what's to say he's going to wait he goes on to something else right

921
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:47,080
I wanted you so bad I could couldn't stand it you didn't want me so I moved on right

922
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:56,400
this is a relationship more than it is a career so I I don't know that dropping the age limit

923
01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:04,440
as a standard would be the greatest of ideas but if you examine each one on a case by case

924
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:10,040
basis which again is going to cost more money on the front end but what you could get and

925
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:14,960
end up with an employee that stays with you for 40 years and ends up being one of the

926
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:23,000
best assets of the entire department well speaking of that then selection one of the

927
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:28,680
the truths and one and I tested for four departments I worked for four departments so I had three

928
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:35,000
polygraphs and four psych tests the polygraph when I did the research I realized oh it's

929
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:39,700
a magic show and as long as you don't confess then you're good to go and so had no problems

930
01:22:39,700 --> 01:22:44,280
going through all those you know I did some things when I was younger that didn't negatively

931
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:49,720
affect anything but I learned very early on in the fire recruitment process that if you're

932
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:54,660
completely honest about everything then you're excluded like they want you to be a choirboy

933
01:22:54,660 --> 01:23:00,080
they did nothing but read a bible for 21 years of your life which is a shame because I think

934
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,560
it you know it's gonna promote dishonesty but um but then with the side test you know

935
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:08,920
it's it's the ones called the MMPI and I had it over and over again and it's the ones where

936
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:13,000
it's like literally thousands of questions you know do you like skateboarding do you

937
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:17,680
like the rain do you like flowers do you like touching kids do you like dogs and whoa what

938
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,680
was that last one and it's and then you speak to people and I've obviously got to speak

939
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:27,200
to a lot now in that world psychology psychiatry and they said that was never meant to be a

940
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:31,920
standalone test full stop especially not to determine someone you know to be able to be

941
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:37,720
a first responder or not it's one of many tests for forensic psychology to give an overall

942
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:42,960
perspective of someone and so we have this this you know polygraph which you know arguably

943
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:48,100
is not accurate we have the MMPI which is a completely inaccurate test for what we're

944
01:23:48,100 --> 01:23:53,320
saying it's going to work for so my whole thing has been we know that our our profession

945
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:57,320
is full of young men and women that have had some things happen when we were younger and

946
01:23:57,320 --> 01:24:02,560
arguably that's what sent us into the uniform and those things when process can become absolute

947
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:09,080
strengths but if left unaddressed they can become fractures of our foundation so to me

948
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:12,800
I think that we should take that money that we wasted on those other modalities and put

949
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:19,200
it into counseling from day one so you know even on probation you you do your PT where

950
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:22,960
you also have your sessions and you speak to your counselor you develop a relationship

951
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:28,040
you start talking about your early life and now you're off to the races and you've normalized

952
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:32,720
that element of the job but obviously then it's like well how are we going to screen

953
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,640
people I think this is the thing is what we're what you're offering what you've done for

954
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:41,560
your career is the most important point up to this point if someone has done things that

955
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:47,000
really are going to be detrimental to this profession it's going to show itself in you

956
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:51,120
know the background checks because site tests as we've seen they just unless you're willing

957
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:56,520
to invest thousands into each candidate and do a full forensic psychology exam you're

958
01:24:56,520 --> 01:25:02,200
not going to find it with a single test so talk to me about the depth of the background

959
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:09,560
check and how how confident are you of finding the right kind of candidate through this system

960
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:18,040
that you guys have developed yeah so all great points and and great questions and you know

961
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:26,920
it would be I would be being dishonest if I said that there is a magic bullet for this

962
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:32,280
right have we done backgrounds on people that have then gotten onto a department and end

963
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:38,280
up being not such a great employee I'm sure we have no doubt about it but so have all

964
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:44,640
of those other components failed at some point as well I will tell you that what what I think

965
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:51,360
makes us excel in this particular area because if you look at a background as a whole a lot

966
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:56,480
of components of it are standard across the board I mean certainly we are going to run

967
01:25:56,480 --> 01:26:03,200
your criminal histories to find out what you've got convictions in and and we're going to

968
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:07,800
run your social security number to make sure that we know that you are who you claim to

969
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:12,320
be and your driving records and are there any variations of your name that we need to

970
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:18,640
be concerned with but what really makes the difference with us is the interview process

971
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:26,680
and it is not again any magic bullet but most of our people are from a law enforcement background

972
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:33,080
and I don't want to call these things interrogations they're not but we have a pre printed battery

973
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:39,880
of questions that we ask and what what our investigators recognize is when something

974
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:48,760
is said to get them to probe a little further right 90 percent of the kiss of death backgrounds

975
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:57,120
that we do for firefighters is caught up in the candidate interview they admit to this

976
01:26:57,120 --> 01:27:03,160
stuff I mean there are times that I've had to pull the phone off my ear because I'm laughing

977
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:07,440
so hard trying to take notes because I can't believe that this person is telling me what

978
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:15,520
to tell me and again I think that the presumption is that we're going to find out anyway so

979
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:20,400
I might as well be honest about this and maybe I get some extra points for honesty and they

980
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:25,360
feel that we're going to find out anyway because we tell them that or we tell them that we

981
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:30,840
already know I don't I'm not asking you questions that I don't already know the answers to they

982
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:35,120
know that they're going to have a background they don't really know when it started they

983
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:38,720
don't know how long we've had their information and what we've been doing before that phone

984
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:46,200
call occurs so it puts them in a very uneasy position and a lot of times they just vomit

985
01:27:46,200 --> 01:27:53,400
out information that is killer for them now could they possibly learn over time that hey

986
01:27:53,400 --> 01:27:59,240
every time I say this I don't get the job potentially but we've gotten to the point

987
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:08,840
we we we service about 65 different agencies in Illinois alone so a lot of the times we're

988
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:13,780
doing a background on a guy who were doing the same background for four different agencies

989
01:28:13,780 --> 01:28:19,320
at the same time so if you leave this out of this interview but I know you said it on

990
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:25,080
that interview the agent's going to call you back and say hey last week I talked and you

991
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:30,360
said that you were doing cocaine on the weekend four weeks ago but you left it out over here

992
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:35,000
we need to talk about that and we make sure that the the reports are accurate on both

993
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:42,720
sides and the the agencies then you know appreciate that obviously because they can address these

994
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,840
issues up front we don't make any suggestions or recommendations unsuitability you know

995
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:52,720
if I tell you that this guy spent four years in prison for criminal sexual assault and

996
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:58,280
you decide you're going to hire him anyway that is your business but I want to make sure

997
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:03,280
that if he spent four years in the joint for criminal sexual assault and it's reportable

998
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:10,680
that you know about it and then you make the decision so yeah it's the magic sauce is in

999
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:18,120
the interviews but that being said you know when you do these backgrounds there's there's

1000
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:26,480
this magic element out there called the Fair Credit Reporting Act the FCRA is what governs

1001
01:29:26,480 --> 01:29:31,720
background investigations and it doesn't matter if you're doing credit reports or not in fact

1002
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:36,240
we don't do credit reporting for any of our fire candidates it's not pertinent to the

1003
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:43,160
job it makes no difference but the same rules apply so for instance I can not report to

1004
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:51,320
you that your candidate was arrested six times for domestic abuse can't tell you that if

1005
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:56,000
he's got a conviction I can tell you that but it's got to be a conviction it's a different

1006
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:01,440
ball game so we focus in then on the behaviors during the interviews and they've got to be

1007
01:30:01,440 --> 01:30:06,680
very carefully worded and read to the applicant word for word now once he or she starts to

1008
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:13,880
speak certainly I can say do tell or tell me more or keep going or don't say anything

1009
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:20,480
because soon as you're quiet they figure well he's silent that must be my turn to talk and

1010
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:25,280
they keep going so we write all of those things down and they end up in the report but if

1011
01:30:25,280 --> 01:30:30,320
you ask the wrong questions the wrong way you're going to end up in court over this

1012
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:34,640
and it's our job as well as to find you the best candidates is to make sure that you're

1013
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:40,560
doing this the right way so that when the candidate says I was not offered this position

1014
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:46,960
because of a faulty background you've got the your attorney's got the the the steam

1015
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:53,080
that they need to go into court and say it wasn't faulty and here it is so all very very

1016
01:30:53,080 --> 01:30:58,240
important components this is why having those agencies that either do these internally or

1017
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:03,600
worse yet let their police departments do it for them you might as stop doing them all

1018
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:08,400
together rather than have the police department do it just don't if that's your approach

1019
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:13,920
don't do it because there's all kinds of issues with that.

1020
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:18,720
That's so interesting when when I first started testing after the academy I moved down to

1021
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:24,040
South Florida and we did this you do one test you do the the fire ground stuff you do the

1022
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:29,640
EMS skills and you do a written and then they send the results to multiple agencies I think

1023
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:35,280
it's called the fire team and Miami Beach fire had one of their guys there and they

1024
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,600
had a pre-app and again you're talking about being honest you know we put it everything

1025
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:44,520
down and yeah years ago when I lived in Japan I did this thing and you know that was the

1026
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,760
only time I did it during that very short period and he literally screwed it up and

1027
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:52,800
threw it in my face I was like you're disqualified I'm like oh okay so then from there on in

1028
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:57,120
I'm like well I'll withhold that truth and right you know everything else is like on

1029
01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:02,280
board you know no no issues at all but it really made me realize that again like I said

1030
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:08,600
that choir boy thing there in our profession there's that gray area for a good firefighter

1031
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:13,680
for a good cop for a good paramedic you know you don't want the white I mean the whiter

1032
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:18,520
than white person might be amazing but chances are a slightly colored you know early life

1033
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:23,720
is going to give you you know a good first responder so where is that line of course

1034
01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:27,840
crimes against children you know stealing narcotics I mean there's there's obvious ones

1035
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:32,480
where yeah it's a complete you know disqualification but you look at some of these you know the

1036
01:32:32,480 --> 01:32:37,680
wildland convict crews inmate crews and and how they can actually go into the the wildland

1037
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:41,520
fire service you know you hear some of these stories where people have been able to get

1038
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:45,880
past some mistakes that they made earlier and they became great firefighters police officers

1039
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:53,000
paramedics doctors nurses so you know what's your perspective on on that you know I think

1040
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:56,880
early on when we had so many people they almost could say well you just need to have never

1041
01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:01,600
done anything ever but I think that's very unrealistic especially finding the right kind

1042
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:05,400
of person that can deal with these stresses and interact with some of these people on

1043
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:13,160
the streets if all you've ever known is bible study and you know whatever correct and I'll

1044
01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:20,200
give you a couple of quick stories with regard to that so during the later years in my career

1045
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:24,760
because of the things that I did with regard to backgrounds and and having this company

1046
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:29,920
and I actually wrote all of the policies practices and procedures for the background program

1047
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:36,680
for my agency and during that time I had some discussions with the agency had the chief

1048
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:44,440
the deputy chief and there it had always been that you know they had a zero tolerance policy

1049
01:33:44,440 --> 01:33:49,880
for onboarding these folks with regard to drugs any kind of drugs so they were throwing

1050
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:56,920
people to the end of the gutter that had were admitting to smoke and marijuana it was that

1051
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:03,440
that strict but they wanted to require at least a two-year college degree and I said

1052
01:34:03,440 --> 01:34:09,600
you can't have both if this guy went to college he smoked weed at some point you know that's

1053
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:14,360
just it's it's one of the things that happens in college I said so if you're looking for

1054
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:19,800
somebody that's got a two-year degree in criminal justice and can say I've never tried cannabis

1055
01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:26,080
I said you're really limiting and getting rid of some good potential candidates here

1056
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:33,960
and it made them change the the policy with regard to you know that that cannabis thing

1057
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:43,000
and you know the Fed used to be any any use of drugs whatsoever was a deal breaker I mean

1058
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:47,520
if you came in and said yeah I tried marijuana in high school you can't ever be a federal

1059
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:54,480
agent they've they've dialed that that stuff back and I think that you're right that it's

1060
01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:59,120
it's interesting that they assume that because you have dabbled in some of these things that

1061
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:08,240
you are going to be a defective first responder when I was first on the job riding with my

1062
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:15,800
field training officer we responded with a neighboring town to a very large party underage

1063
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:20,560
drinking party there probably were a hundred kids in this house and when we got there they

1064
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:26,120
scrambled like rats now I found it to be quite amusing because I was doing the same shit

1065
01:35:26,120 --> 01:35:36,560
18 months earlier and when these all ran out of the house and we walked through and the

1066
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:41,200
the lead officer on the call said all right everybody's gone I said they're not they're

1067
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:46,440
not gone he said I'm telling you rookie I've been through that house there's nobody in

1068
01:35:46,440 --> 01:35:51,360
there I said I'll bet you I can go in there and find at least five people so they let

1069
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:56,680
me walk through the house and I walked down the hall and there was one of those sets of

1070
01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:02,400
attic stairs in the hall and I grabbed the poor and I pulled it three of them rolled

1071
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:09,200
down the stairs at our feet went down into the basement and they've got these long curtains

1072
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:16,480
covering the window and you can see feet sticking out from behind the curtains so I'm moving

1073
01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:22,520
the curtains and they're all running out the door and you know my my training officer said

1074
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:26,360
what made you think that you could go in there and find those kids I said because I hid in

1075
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:32,460
the same spots a year ago I said the fact that I did these things gives me the insight

1076
01:36:32,460 --> 01:36:42,440
to know how to deal with it right and I think within reason it is a mistake to dismiss anybody

1077
01:36:42,440 --> 01:36:49,440
that's got any indiscretions in their past as being unable to be a first responder that

1078
01:36:49,440 --> 01:36:55,200
is not true it's just not yeah well the irony now is the two things that I tried one of

1079
01:36:55,200 --> 01:37:00,720
which when I was in Japan was legal the other one wasn't but they're both being used now

1080
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:05,880
for PTSD and first responders of military so we've gone full circle you know where the

1081
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:11,240
things that I was vilified for you can actually I mean soon will be I'm sure legal and be

1082
01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:16,160
able to use in a therapeutic way and in many many ways so you know we look at these kind

1083
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:21,960
of stigmas and these these beliefs that we were so entrenched in 20 years ago and then

1084
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:26,460
you've got to have the humility and step back and go yeah maybe we were wrong it's okay

1085
01:37:26,460 --> 01:37:30,320
that we were wrong at the time we thought we were right but when when do we finally

1086
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:35,580
go okay we're going to change the way we think now yeah yeah you don't have and certainly

1087
01:37:35,580 --> 01:37:41,560
those things become legal once the government decides hey we can tax this same thing applies

1088
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:49,600
you know to cannabis which is a nationwide rolling wave you know they're they're taxing

1089
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:54,200
it to death and now all of a sudden because they can tax it it's okay for everybody to

1090
01:37:54,200 --> 01:38:01,760
smoke it well I don't really see that much difference between cannabis and alcohol to

1091
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:08,840
be honest with you it's it's the way in which it's applied that's problematic so do I have

1092
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:16,240
a problem with a firefighter that goes home on his days off and and smokes a joint because

1093
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:22,280
that's what he does to relax not particularly just don't come to work under the influence

1094
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:30,600
and don't come to my house smelling like it right those are my requests unfortunately

1095
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:37,720
some of these people don't have the common sense to do that you know I've had how when

1096
01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:41,600
was the last time you went anywhere James where you weren't walking down the street

1097
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:46,400
going somebody here smoking weed you know or pull up at an intersection and somebody's

1098
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:50,640
got their windows cracked down it's illegal to smoke it while you're on or drive while

1099
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:54,800
you're under the influence of it and yet you can smell it coming out of the windows of

1100
01:38:54,800 --> 01:39:01,440
the car next to you so it gets abused right the privileges or the lack of restriction

1101
01:39:01,440 --> 01:39:08,960
gets abused and then everybody suffers for it so but to to create blanket policies and

1102
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:15,800
in fact there's there's laws against it the EEOC has issued some opinions with regard

1103
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:21,280
to backgrounds in particular that you know you cannot create a blanket policy that says

1104
01:39:21,280 --> 01:39:26,800
anybody that's convicted of a crime cannot work here anyone that's ever used illegal

1105
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:31,080
drugs cannot work here you cannot do that you're going to get yourself sued for it so

1106
01:39:31,080 --> 01:39:36,680
it's got to be on a case-by-case basis and that's probably the way it should be absolutely

1107
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:42,800
so to kind of summarize them for people listening talk to me about the the different services

1108
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:53,240
that you offer and where people can find it yeah so we are on the web obviously cls-ent.com

1109
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:59,600
is cls background investigations but we've taken the services that we offer and you know

1110
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:04,820
we've talked about a number of things here James to include the the private investigations

1111
01:40:04,820 --> 01:40:11,280
component the background component and the active shooter component we've taken all of

1112
01:40:11,280 --> 01:40:17,800
those things and this is a an unintentional byproduct of the backgrounds as well and created

1113
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:24,240
a workplace violence mitigation solution right so if you're screening your people before

1114
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:29,320
you hire them you're less likely to let the fox into the hen house if you have policies

1115
01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:37,120
practices and procedures in place that support a safe working environment as it applies to

1116
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:43,360
mitigating workplace violence you're less likely to have a situation that involves that

1117
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:48,640
and if you take active shooter training and train the people that have qualified to become

1118
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:56,080
part of your employment family you have even less of a risk so if you go to workplace violence

1119
01:40:56,080 --> 01:41:02,480
mitigation.com you will find all of our services listed there broken down individually into

1120
01:41:02,480 --> 01:41:08,760
what they do and then how they work together to create a solution that reduces the risk

1121
01:41:08,760 --> 01:41:14,280
of having a workplace violence incident in your place of business.

1122
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:17,360
Fantastic well I want to throw some quick closing questions at you before I let you

1123
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:18,360
go if that's okay.

1124
01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:19,360
Sure absolutely.

1125
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:24,320
The first one I love to ask is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend

1126
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:30,240
it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1127
01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:37,040
I got to make a pitch here I actually wrote a book on active shooter response it is called

1128
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:41,720
if you're looking for a victim keep looking.

1129
01:41:41,720 --> 01:41:46,600
You can find it on Amazon it's a very easy read I want to say the whole thing is about

1130
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:58,040
115 pages and it's probably at this point less than 15 bucks but it discusses and it's

1131
01:41:58,040 --> 01:42:02,840
peppered in with stories from the field so things that I actually experienced while I

1132
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:10,920
was on the job and how it applies to the mitigation of workplace violence and active shooter stuff.

1133
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:18,280
There are a couple of books that I have read one of which is called Left of Bang which

1134
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:28,920
is written by a Marine that was a trainer and the whole concept of Left of Bang is situational

1135
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:34,720
awareness paying attention to what is around you so that you can take action before the

1136
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:39,280
explosion goes off before it turns bad.

1137
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:47,480
That is another one that I recommend and finally which one that I'm sure a number of your

1138
01:42:47,480 --> 01:42:56,320
listeners have already read is called The Gift of Fear and it is again a book about

1139
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:04,120
kind of situational awareness and not ignoring the sixth sense or the uneasy feeling that

1140
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:08,280
you get when you're walking into the gas station you're just like something's not right here

1141
01:43:08,280 --> 01:43:11,680
shouldn't be going in then don't go in.

1142
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:17,560
So it kind of explores the psyche of all of that I found that that was also a very interesting

1143
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:19,800
and helpful read.

1144
01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:24,480
I just literally yesterday saw a video on social media and it was again a sound bite

1145
01:43:24,480 --> 01:43:30,420
that you know a minute or so but it was someone I'm assuming from the law enforcement community

1146
01:43:30,420 --> 01:43:36,160
talking about cases where someone's had a sixth sense but say the example they give

1147
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:40,800
is you know the elevator opens up they're about to get in and whoever is presented in

1148
01:43:40,800 --> 01:43:46,520
front of them kind of makes them feel ill at ease but because of again the political

1149
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:50,440
environment they're like well you know I don't want to appear a certain way so I'm going

1150
01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:55,360
to get in in that particular situation with that particular individual it was a bad choice

1151
01:43:55,360 --> 01:44:02,160
so the whole takeaway was you know don't let you know that kind of pressure negate that

1152
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:06,560
feeling that animalistic feeling that we all get that might be actually there to save your

1153
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:07,560
life.

1154
01:44:07,560 --> 01:44:12,640
Yeah it's there for a reason God puts it there for a reason pay attention to it.

1155
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:19,600
Absolutely what about films and documentaries?

1156
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:24,880
There was a documentary actually a couple of documentaries that I just watched the other

1157
01:44:24,880 --> 01:44:36,160
day with my wife on the Gabby Petito case that I thought was very good very interesting.

1158
01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:43,200
There was a similar one and I it was on Netflix I cannot remember the name of it about a young

1159
01:44:43,200 --> 01:44:50,400
lady that was kidnapped and I wish I could remember the name of the James but ultimately

1160
01:44:50,400 --> 01:44:54,440
she was kidnapped it was a weird situation she was legitimately kidnapped and held captive

1161
01:44:54,440 --> 01:45:00,040
for a number of days she was sexually assaulted multiple times by this guy and ultimately

1162
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:05,200
he ended up taking her back to her childhood neighborhood and releasing her within blocks

1163
01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:10,600
of her parents house and when she reported the incident to the police because it sounded

1164
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:18,480
so bizarre they dismissed it as being BS and he ended up being arrested a couple years

1165
01:45:18,480 --> 01:45:24,960
later as a serial killer and he had done this many other times and it the I think what made

1166
01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:32,480
me so interested in it was the fact that the the police so blatantly dismissed all of her

1167
01:45:32,480 --> 01:45:37,920
story just like it did it sounded bizarre but the bizarre ones are usually the ones

1168
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:46,880
that are true so a horrible failure on their part so that was again another one that that

1169
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:49,160
I really enjoyed.

1170
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:56,920
Films I try not to you know we all have our favorites and that we're like from the time

1171
01:45:56,920 --> 01:46:04,360
we were kids I like the the the the Rocky series from when I was a kid and you know

1172
01:46:04,360 --> 01:46:11,160
I always like those movies that portray an underdog that continues to fight until he

1173
01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:16,240
comes out on top he or she comes out on top I find those very inspirational and amazing

1174
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:23,560
and it gives me what I need to look at my life and go all right if if truth or not whether

1175
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:29,240
this is fiction or it's it's actual the way it is the fact that this person wouldn't

1176
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:34,200
quit God know where they wanted to be therefore I need to get up at 5 30 instead of six tomorrow

1177
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:41,840
because I got things to do so yeah those are those would be my answers to that.

1178
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:47,720
I think I've had Rocky named more than any other film when I've asked this question

1179
01:46:47,720 --> 01:46:52,080
and it's funny you think back to young Sylvester Stallone that was struggling to work in Hollywood

1180
01:46:52,080 --> 01:46:56,480
so ended up writing his own script who'd have thought that it would be held up as one of

1181
01:46:56,480 --> 01:46:59,960
the best stories we've had on screen.

1182
01:46:59,960 --> 01:47:06,000
And you know I think what's actually a better story than the movie itself is his story Sylvester

1183
01:47:06,000 --> 01:47:10,000
Stallone is an amazing individual whether you like him or you don't like him the fact

1184
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:16,360
that he fought tooth and nail to get to where he he to become what he actually became is

1185
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:18,160
just an amazing story.

1186
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:22,920
Yeah absolutely well speaking of amazing people is there a person that you recommend to come

1187
01:47:22,920 --> 01:47:28,360
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders military and associated professions

1188
01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:31,360
of the world.

1189
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:36,960
Oh boy.

1190
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:45,240
I have one the one individual that comes to mind is a good friend of mine that that retired

1191
01:47:45,240 --> 01:47:59,180
from the job and he's the only officer that I know firsthand that was involved in a line

1192
01:47:59,180 --> 01:48:05,080
of duty shooting where he actually was forced to take someone's life.

1193
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:08,320
Now I I've talked to him about it a couple of times.

1194
01:48:08,320 --> 01:48:10,800
It was probably 10 12 years ago.

1195
01:48:10,800 --> 01:48:18,960
I don't know how open he would be to discussing it but the story itself is is amazing.

1196
01:48:18,960 --> 01:48:31,200
It was a suicide by cop situation female and you know just a brutal situation to be in

1197
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:38,600
and he and one other officer ended up having to to end that threat and he's the first one

1198
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:45,080
that that comes to my mind that would would be a good one to to discuss that kind of situation

1199
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:51,320
and the recovery from such an impactful event.

1200
01:48:51,320 --> 01:48:52,920
So I can try to hook you up with him.

1201
01:48:52,920 --> 01:48:56,240
I'd be happy to and see if he's willing to come on and discuss it.

1202
01:48:56,240 --> 01:49:02,680
I'd love to hear the discussion that you have with him but it's it's more focused on the

1203
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:03,880
law enforcement side.

1204
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:09,920
If that doesn't bother you then I'll you know reach out to him and see what he says.

1205
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:13,200
Yeah no I have my guests from all over the place but I've had a lot of cops on here and

1206
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:18,000
I think that's that's an area I didn't even understand it fully until someone said to

1207
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:23,960
me probably like a year ago or now but they were saying yeah in certain religions Christianity

1208
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:30,120
being one of them if someone truly believes that suicide is a sin then it's a kind of

1209
01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:34,320
loophole in their mind and they're distorted thinking that well if I just get someone to

1210
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:38,520
take my life for me then technically I haven't committed suicide and then I'll still go to

1211
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:43,560
heaven but what a burden I mean firstly how how sad that person is to get to that point

1212
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:47,760
of crisis and you know to feel like that's the only option but then to put that burden

1213
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:52,620
on the officer who has to live with that the rest of their life I mean yeah that's an important

1214
01:49:52,620 --> 01:49:54,360
story to tell I think.

1215
01:49:54,360 --> 01:49:56,320
Yeah yeah.

1216
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:59,480
Absolutely all right well then the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to

1217
01:49:59,480 --> 01:50:06,160
find you what do you do to decompress?

1218
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:10,320
Not enough.

1219
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:19,200
Actually what do I do to decompress I am a guitar player and when when I can get my time

1220
01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:27,600
alone in in my studio which is nothing more than a bedroom where I keep these things I

1221
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:35,120
can actually just kind of melt into the music that I love and and enjoy playing and you

1222
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:41,560
know what typically starts out to be a 15 minute session ends up being three hours before

1223
01:50:41,560 --> 01:50:47,680
I realized I've been out of commission that long so I really really love that and I would

1224
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:52,600
say that that is probably the one thing that kind of takes me away from everything else

1225
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:58,280
that I've got going on so yeah that would be that would be my answer there.

1226
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:02,440
Brilliant well you mentioned the sites where people can find the work what about you personally

1227
01:51:02,440 --> 01:51:06,960
if someone wants to reach out where are the best places online or social media?

1228
01:51:06,960 --> 01:51:12,200
Yeah I'm on LinkedIn under my name directly and there's not many of us out there with

1229
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:21,040
that last name if you throw that in I'm bound to pop up and then you know our on the website

1230
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:28,360
is our office phone number they feel free to leave a message with the switchboard I

1231
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:33,880
return all calls that are left with my name on them so if somebody says I'm calling for

1232
01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:40,720
Dan I will call you back we are not that that swamped where I cannot carve out some time

1233
01:51:40,720 --> 01:51:47,240
to make a phone call and then usually once we have the first initial conversation start

1234
01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:58,600
an email thread happy to give my email it's my first name Dan period my last name at cls-ent.com

1235
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:04,720
you can reach me there as well and then James if you know certainly I'm connected with you

1236
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:09,720
on LinkedIn as well so if somebody has questions and you want to direct them my way because

1237
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:13,640
it's in my wheelhouse be happy to follow up that way as well.

1238
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:18,360
I appreciate it thank you well we have gone all over the place in this conversation but

1239
01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:23,200
I think there's so much value in in the lens that you have not only in law enforcement

1240
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:27,920
but in the background check well I mean your perspective on the recruitment crisis and

1241
01:52:27,920 --> 01:52:33,400
again optimistically this this swinging the other way now the pendulum I think is invaluable

1242
01:52:33,400 --> 01:52:37,120
and some of the things that you brought to the table I think hopefully will be great

1243
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:41,300
tools for people moving forward so I want to thank you so much for being so generous

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01:52:41,300 --> 01:52:46,360
with your time and coming on Behind the Shield podcast today absolutely and I want to thank

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you for having me it's been a lot of fun and I hope that our connection grows from here

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and we can help each other out going forward.