I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast
that is Transcend.
Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did
for 14 years.
Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,
hair loss, etc.
Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have
seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely
incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right
and center.
So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology
and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down
my throat.
Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason
why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.
They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first
responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.
So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood
drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they
guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.
In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been
very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.
So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology
knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.
Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies
they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.
So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,
but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.
So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that
you can't come back from.
So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely
one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.
So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the
Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.
This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things
for the first responder community.
As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination
of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.
Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.
And there are several features that really impressed me.
Firstly, there is a full exercise library.
So you, the personal trainer does not have to create that within your own department.
Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.
So you blanket program for everyone.
Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition
rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.
TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness
data.
It integrates with wearables.
And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.
To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and
then over the full span of their career.
Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.
Now if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind
the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.
And if you want to take a deeper dive into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with
Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder.com.
And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.
T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show veteran law enforcement officer and the vice president of CLS background investigations,
Dan Skachilis.
Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into law enforcement,
the unique lens he had working for customs, either side of 9-11, workplace violence, school
safety, background checks, the national recruitment crisis, the downstream costs of hiring the
wrong employees and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of well over a thousand episodes now, so all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every
single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Dan Skachilis.
Well Dan, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
James, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?
Well I am currently in New Lenox, Illinois, which is about 20 miles west of Chicago near
the Joliet border, for those of you that are familiar with this area of the country.
Beautiful.
Well I want to start at the very beginning of your timeline, we'll kind of walk through
and then we'll obviously get to what we're going to talk about as far as the primary
subject.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
Sure.
So I was born actually in Abilene, Texas, in a hospital in an Air Force base there,
my father was stationed there.
Didn't spend much time in Texas, unfortunately ended up moving to Illinois very young and
I've been here ever since.
My father was in law enforcement for a number of years before going into the insurance fraud
investigations field and my mom was a nurse after they divorced, which was when I was
in fifth grade.
So kind of a, I don't want to say a broken home, I mean I had both parents in my life
just not together.
I got divorced when my son was about three and we were just talking about it, he's about
to turn 18 this summer and he's got two parents that loved him but I always kind of felt bad
about that bouncing back and forth.
It had to be done, the marriage was completely done and it would have been horrendous if
we'd stay together but watching a child have to spend Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday here and
then the rest of the week there or whatever it is, it has an impact.
No matter how much the parents love them, they don't have that kind of stability that
a nuclear family has.
You are absolutely correct, yes.
All right well then you mentioned about insurance fraud, just to jump down a rabbit hole for
a second.
What area was your dad working as far as the insurance business?
So when he left the police department and got into insurance, the insurance fraud component
was a relatively new thing and the insurance industry was actively recruiting from the
law enforcement pool those individuals that were on the cusp of retirement or those individuals
that had just had enough of law enforcement and wanted to jump ship.
So he did, he left and he worked for Prudential Insurance for I want to say 15, 16 years before
he actually retired for good.
I don't know whether he would say it was the most rewarding portion of his life but it
made him a living and it used the skill set that he was able to develop when he was on
the police department.
He was in detectives there so it was kind of an easy transition I think for him.
What kind of insurance fraud was he investigating?
Different casualty for the most part, fire, that you know suspicious house fires, what
not, vehicle fires.
He was actually pretty good with regard to arson investigations and I think that was
training that he got once he got into the insurance industry but I was always amazed
at some of the ways that he would tell us that these you know professional arsonists
if you will would cause the fire to spread from one location of the house to another
quickly with leaving very little physical evidence of the event or evidence that would
not necessarily be viewed as suspicious when presented.
For instance you know a bag of potato chips will go up in flames very easily because of
the oil content in the bag and if that happens to be in the kitchen and that's where the
fire starts then it can be used to spread that kind of thing.
So it was interesting to see and I know he was very intrigued with it but I don't know
that he found it to be as rewarding overall as the law enforcement portion of his life.
It's an important conversation I think especially on the roads.
When I first moved to the States I remember being in a motel and there was back in the
day you had the yellow pages and you know the white pages and I remember there was this
one from the side as you're looking at it the pages were all kind of painted a different
color on the edge.
So I'm thinking okay that must be doctors or you know the professions that everyone
needs but it was attorneys and it was literally about a quarter of the entire yellow pages
and so I was like what the hell you know is going on here and then you live here and then
you become the firefighter and EMT and the paramedic and you see you know the ambulance
chasing mentality you know and then you look at the price of our insurance now it blows
me away that we haven't addressed that kind of frivolous lawsuit element of our legal
system.
Yeah it is it has become a very litigious society overall and it's not just you know
we do a lot of private investigations work here too and a lot of that is for law firms
and generally they try the shotgun approach whenever they get a new case right.
We're going to sue everybody that's associated with this matter and we'll weed out the ones
that are not involved later on but you know for one single lawsuit they may be serving
a car accident for instance.
We may go out and serve 15 different individuals associated with that accident from insurance
companies to witnesses to people that were in the car to people that claim they were
in the trunk of the car to any way that they can associate somebody with that they're getting
pulled in.
I remember I think it was Anaheim if I'm not mistaken they had a bus accident it might
have actually been the Orlando area but anyway they had a bus accident and they said they
were working the scene and cars pulled up to the scene people got out the cars and went
onto the bus to pretend that they were also on there so they could start their legal claim.
So I've watched people lying on the floor in stores you know and we've gone responded
as medics and then the manager will show us the CCTV footage of someone dumping out the
laundry detergent themselves and then lying next to it and then starting to scream.
I mean it's crazy.
When I was on the police department we had a one of the main intersections in town was
very close to a very large apartment complex and bus accidents at that intersection were
not completely uncommon and we would have to station somebody at the front and the back
of the bus to keep people from running out of the apartments and jumping on while we
process the scene.
It was crazy.
I remember my very first fire department hi Aliyah we had a case and it was absolute deluge
of a thunderstorm going on as well and a person had been backing out of a parking space and
someone had come in into the parking lot and just dinked them like there was nothing even
visible on the car and the driver of the one backing out was a lawyer and all of a sudden
now his neck hurt and all this stuff.
And I'm a brand new probie so I've got no skin in the game other than just to listen
to what people tell me to do.
We put him on the backboard they first tape over his eyebrows yeah the piece of tape that
goes over the eyebrows and then they did the paperwork in the back of the rescue while
the guy sat on the stretcher in the middle of the rainstorm.
We didn't even put him back in the rig.
So you got to be careful because your first responders know.
That's right absolutely absolutely we've all got got those story.
I used to get a kick out of the you know we would get the violent offenders that ended
up having to go to the hospital and the give the nurses and the doctors of real ration
in the emergency room and I thought you have no idea.
There were areas that I never thought you could get a garden hose into and they were
just given these guys the once over and I thought you know you kind of asked for it.
So good for you.
You reap what you sow.
That's right.
Well one more area because this has actually come up a lot recently it'd be interesting
to get your perspective on this.
When you have a first responder who has some sort of injury and let's say they ultimately
have to become retired you know medically retired from it.
I never had that happen I had injuries but I was able to rehab back to full duty but
I watched my friends with legitimate you know either mental health issues or legitimate
you know back injuries that had surgeries and all these kind of things terrified to
do anything because they were worried that there was going to be some dude in a bush
taking a picture and all of a sudden it was taken away from them.
And if you think about that as a philosophy there's nothing worse you can do to someone
than discouraging from doing the very things that they can do to actually start healing.
They may not be able to be a police officer or firefighter anymore but they can still
pick up their children and maybe you know do some some you know other careers instead.
So what is your perspective on that kind of fear when it comes to medical retirements
and some of the issues that our profession sees as a barrier to them actually getting
help and progressing forward in their life.
Yeah and it is a huge problem.
We have been retained in a number of cases to go out and videotape individuals that are
out on workman's comp claims and whatnot and you know within my agency when I was still
on the department we had a couple of guys that were out for really extended periods
of time and you know the same type of thing.
Were they under constant surveillance?
Not always because that gets to be very expensive but things like being sent back to the doctor
on a yearly basis for a re-evaluation to check for fitness duty those types of things.
And it swung both ways.
There were a number of people that really could have gone back to duty at some point
and just decided to milk the system.
And I will tell you that the concern of especially in the early stages of an injury having somebody
out there watching you is legitimate.
I mean it's usually more the insurance company that retains us as opposed to the agency itself
the workman's comp company.
But it is a concern and you know you shouldn't feel like you have to be a prisoner in your
own home because somebody is going to interpret the video of you out sweeping your porch as
being fit to go back and work the rig and climb the ladders.
So it is a problem you know but this is how the lawyers make their money.
Yeah absolutely.
Well again I think that's another area we could address because 100% abuse and we've
all seen those you know those those homes that have the escalates on the front driveway
and the kids are impoverished and there's no food in the you know that those exist.
There is you know food stamp abuse and all those kind of things.
But people kind of get pulled into that and forget that that's a small percentage.
Those systems work for a majority of people.
But if you are discouraging someone with a back injury to move I mean you know the reason
I managed to rehab my back was because of movement chiropractic you know PT building
up in the gym.
And if you took a picture of me in the gym you're always not hurt.
He's on a journey to be not hurt and I got back to full duty.
But I think some of my peers didn't get back to full duty because of that broken system.
Yeah.
Yeah I would agree.
It is it is problematic what the solution is.
I don't know.
I don't know that it's ever going to to change.
Again you make the argument that look if I sit if I lie in bed all day and moan because
it hurts it's never going to stop hurting.
I've got to get up and become mobile.
So I'm going to push myself every single day.
And if you want to videotape that and then we argue it in court so be it.
But you know especially these younger folks that have legitimate injuries and I'm not
talking about people milk in the system.
When you have a legitimate industry injury you want to get back to being functional enough
to do something.
Like you said you may never return to full duty again.
Maybe your career is over but I want to do something.
Nobody wants to be you know sitting on their couch all day at 25 years old relying on somebody
else to feed them and help them get to the bathroom.
So it's it's a shame that the system is skewed that way.
Yeah absolutely.
Well you mentioned that your dad was in law enforcement when you were at the school age
was that what you were dreaming of.
Was there another career in mind at first.
You know initially I wanted to go into construction and I actually did.
I had an uncle that owned a construction company and I worked for him from the time I was about
12 to the time I was about 18 building homes.
So a skill set that I'm definitely very grateful for now.
And then where the law enforcement thing came into play I really don't know.
I just I woke up one day and said this is what I want to do.
My father was not thrilled with it because he had been there and you know experienced
the politics of the whole thing.
But I just kind of fell in love with the concept and pursued it hard from that point until
I actually got hired at 21.
What was it that your dad was saying about his experience in law enforcement that deterred
him from encouraging you going in because this is something that we hear even more now
and that's one of the reasons why we have this recruitment crisis.
Yeah and you know with my with my father you're talking about going all the way back to the
very early 80s.
He was working for a suburban department just outside of the city of Chicago and they got
a new chief in there who was retired rank from Chicago and came in to do things the
Chicago way and it didn't fly in the suburban department.
And he was my father and some of his co-workers were witness to some things that the this
individual was doing with regard to some interrogation tactics and whatnot and went to the proper
authorities and reported it and whenever you get a situation like that you got to hope
that it all goes your way because if it doesn't this guy is left in power you're cooked.
Well it didn't he was left in power and he was cooked and he was very bitter about the
whole thing you know.
He said I did the right thing and those people that were that had my back when we did it
then turned on me and he said it just he says you have to be very careful the politics are
horrible and you know now when you're looking at it from a recruitment standpoint I think
you're getting individuals like myself and that that are discouraging people from going
into law enforcement not just because of the politics but the way that the society is turned.
I mean they the police are just not looked at fondly any longer you know and what was
a fantastic career is now just something that nobody wants to do and I'm not out there beating
the drum trying to turn people away.
I'm out there saying look this is you're gonna what you're gonna pursue be prepared to deal
with these things and the career that I once had is not the career that's available right
now and I if it's gonna if the pendulum is gonna swing back well it's gonna take a long
time to get there it's gonna take a long time so you know and I don't know how much different
the fire industry is from the police.
I know that they're having they're both both entities are having very similar recruitment
challenges unlike anything I have ever seen and we get into the the backgrounds that we
do for fire we'll go a little more into that but it's just I'm in awe of what's going on
with the recruitment stuff it's ridiculous.
Well talk to me about the environment that you entered then so how how competitive it
was it and then how were you received by your community back then?
With regard to what I'm doing now or?
The policing when you first walked in.
When I started on the police department it was absolutely everything that I had ever
dreamed of I mean it was I would have done the job for free I couldn't believe that they
were paying me to do it you know but you're talking about a day when you would have an
agency that was giving a test and hiring three people and you would have 400 people show
up to take the test you know now you've got today you've got and this goes for the fireside
too you've got agencies that are giving a test look in the higher 20 and they get 16
people show up to take it you know it's it's just completely completely changed and I you
know a lot of that is because of sometimes the agencies do this to themselves you know
they don't necessarily cherish and hold in high regard the great employees that they
have and when they mistreat them then if they don't think that the word gets out about that
they're they're absolutely wrong I mean back in the day look in the early days as a Chicago
police department I could have told you who was going on right everybody that went on
that agency was Irish and they were three four generations deep right my dad was a was
a policeman his dad was a policeman my great-grandfather was a policeman this is what I'm going to
do it's not like that anymore and but in the day when when I got on the job it was that
career gave me everything I could have possibly wanted up until the very end when the pendulum
started to swing hard the other way and I was already a lieutenant and the writing was
on the wall that it was just not somewhere I wanted to stay and and we were already doing
this with the the background stuff and some other investigative work on the side and it
just was a more rewarding fit for me to kind of transition out of that and and into what
I'm doing now.
So when you first progressed what were the kind of roles that you started finding yourself
in?
So I started as a patrolman which is where everybody starts for the most part I was in
that role for about seven or eight years and then I was through a government grant I was
tasked with developing the first tactical gang crimes unit in the agency so it went
into a plain clothes detail back in the day when I had hair to grow I grew my hair long
and you know had the earring and did the undercover buys and all of those things and I did that
for several years which was fantastic and then went into investigations and I was there
for about three years and then I got an opportunity of a lifetime to be a what they call a task
force officer so I was tasked out by my agency to what was United States Customs Service
at that time which is now Department of Homeland Security and I spent two and a half years
there working international money laundering and narcotics smuggling cases primarily money
laundering which was a wonderful experience but I swear to God in the two and a half years
that I was there I probably had 48 hours off the clock everything else was going nonstop
so it was again a job for a younger guy and it was designed to burn you out as quickly
as possible it could until you were begging to go back to your agency and ultimately that's
what happened and I got promoted shortly thereafter to sergeant and then about five or six years
later to lieutenant and I retired as a lieutenant in 2014.
If LinkedIn and my memory serves me right that customs assignment that you had spanned
9-11 so what was that you know what was the the environment before and did you see any
change with all these changes in you know air travel and funding terrorism were there
any kind of interesting things that you observed as you progress past that date?
Yeah so actually I was on duty I was back on the street and I was as a sergeant at the
time I had just gone back to the agency and 9-11 happened and I was actually working and
I can remember from a local standpoint everybody gathering in the squad room and watching those
buildings come down and recognizing what position this put us in in the department but not having
any clue what position to put the country in you know we were directed to go out and
stop at all the schools and let them know that we're here and we're safe and we're
watching over you and I had principals in tears going are we at war and I'm like to
be honest with you I don't know I don't have the answer to that question and I was in a
kind of a unique position that I still had my contacts at customs in fact my funny story
my wife was my first partner at customs so we met there and she was home with our first
daughter at the time on maternity leave and you know they were just as ill prepared and
dumbfounded by the whole thing as the rest of us which doesn't say much for our country's
defense system at the time but shortly thereafter it was a huge morph combining different agencies
together and you know trying to pool resources and to try to ensure that this kind of thing
would never happen again in reality it's more damage control than anything else but they
tried that the government I think tried to do a did a great job of trying to create the
illusion that they were going to change everything and everything was going to be okay going
forward we recognize their mistakes and we all know that you know all these years later
we watched the government make the same mistakes over and over again and do the same things
and have the same problems and same challenges and they just tend to revert back to and I'm
talking speaking up for law enforcement the things that they've always done you know we've
always done it this way well it's never worked so let's continue to do that by all means
the task force concept was phenomenal the joint terrorism task force or JTTF great concept
it's the execution of all of those things that's always been a challenge talk to me
about the importance of collaboration between agencies I was talking to someone the other
day and we were referring to the the gotty documentary and when you see the barriers
to him being arrested a lot sooner it was kind of egos between each of the agencies
involved in that case you've got pretty unique perspective with customs and then you know
documentary and post 9-11 what do you observe as far as the the times where it's done well
where agencies do collaborate and then those times where you know they're not collaborating
and then you know what is the takeaway from that how do we move forward and get people
to actually interact rather than let egos get in the way yeah and the biggest problem
is you hit it right on the head is the egos you know and it always has been I think when
you talk about the the task force officer program that the concept is is phenomenal
and it's amazing to see the differences between how the federal system operates and how the
local system operates for example when we were working these money laundering cases
if if I needed if I was involved in a case where we were buying a large stockpile of
narcotics for instance and you needed what would they would call flash money right you've
got to show some cash to the bad guys so that they believe that you're legitimate if I needed
a million dollars in a suitcase the fed could get that to me in a number of hours if I needed
a helicopter to follow people around or an airplane to follow people around I could get
that through them in a in a number of hours if we actually had someone in custody and
they needed a jail cell to put them in they had nothing so I'm the the the concept I'm
like you just gave me a helicopter and a million dollars you don't have a jail cell to lock
this guy up in no can we take them back to your agency and put them in there like yeah
you can but I said I'm just baffled that so the the simple basic gumshoe tasks that needed
to be accomplished were very well handled by the local officers because they did that
every day and conversely when you needed the big stuff that you know if somebody came to
me at my agency and said I need a million dollars in a suitcase for flash money I'd
be like we're out of luck there's no way you know if I can take a collection in the
squad room but we're not going to come close so it was it was really amazing at the differences
between the two and then when you actually brought them together and got them to finally
play nice together we did amazing things amazing things that is the exception unfortunately
usually particularly in law enforcement everybody wants to be in charge and it's usually the
younger folks that don't know any better right I want I'm running this operation this is
my call this is my case I was more than willing to give it to them like good it's also your
responsibility you tell me what you want me to do and I'll go do it right but the younger
guys coming into the the game wanted to be in control of this and interestingly enough
we started to see this when we started post 9-eleven when police and fire departments
started to do a little more training together it wasn't so much the egos that we're getting
in the way it was lack of communication the ability to talk to each other on a something
as simple as a common radio band was a mess it was a complete mess so you've got first
responders doing one thing without other first responders knowing what they're doing you've
got different agencies coming together because I heard something on the radio and figured
you guys might be able to use my help guys showing up in plain clothes because they've
got a radio at home and they're grabbing their gun and running to the scene it was it was
a mess and to this day I think that the lack of communication between agencies is an even
bigger problem than the ego thing and I just don't see it getting any better I mean it's
to the point where it's dangerous because a lot of times you see these events that turn
to being a mess and it all boils down to the same thing you guys weren't talking to each
other nobody knew what the other one was doing.
How do we get here? Why is that such a problem? Because we see it and I've seen it in my career
you know I've argued on dispatch to get an engine sent to a fire when I'm on a rescue
I'm on the EMS in that moment you know and they're telling me oh it's not our jurisdiction
it's the city of Orlando or vice versa I can see the fire station just send them and then
you like right here police and fire not playing together county and city not playing together
how has that always been a case is it something that we've we've just been hiding from for
a long time or has this got worse as maybe you know the the lack of leadership is starting
to get more prevalent in our professions.
Yeah and I think it's all it has always been there I think it's getting worse you know
and it's going to take leadership on all all levels to step up and say look we know what
the problem is we're going to fix it you know if you took several like-minded agency heads
both from fire and police and brought them together and locked them in a room for a day
and said clear your head and let's work on solving the problem by the end of the day
they would come out with a solution now execution of the solution or implementation may be an
issue because you're talking about money and buying equipment and changing rules and regulations
and new policies and practices and procedures but started to see some changes that were
giving me some hope at one point with the development of the rescue task force concept
which is something that I'm sure that you and most of your listeners are are familiar
with the idea that you would take firefighters and police officers and almost cross train
them so that they know what the responsibilities of each one is and we can enhance each other's
responsibilities is a concept that just makes perfect sense you know the days we used to
when we had an accident for instance that we were working and the fire trucks and the
ambulances would roll up we used to refer to them a lot of times as the evidence eradication
team because they would drive those rigs over the debris field because they're not looking
for the debris field who are they looking for the injured parties they've got a job
to do right so something as simple as saying hey let's have a meeting so you understand
what's important to us and we understand what's important to you we'll clear a lane for you
to park your rigs when you arrive on the scene watch for us to wave you into those lanes
so you can get your people out of there as quick as possible without damaging the evidence
that we're so desperately trying to preserve and you know just those types of conversations
and then implementation of it's not enough to just talk about I mean you actually got
to do it.
Absolutely well speaking of interaction between FD and PD I know the active shooter world
is something that you specialize in too so yeah there's all these different conversations
obviously all these different kind of philosophies on how especially our schools how we keep them
safer what are some of the the kind of truth sort of arisen through all your work in that
area?
Yeah so this is an area that I'm I'm extremely passionate about and for a number of reasons
and my journey to the epiphany and and getting to be very passionate about this is is a little
bit of a lengthy one but I was on the department that I was a member of for 24 years was a
smaller smaller agency we're just outside the city of Chicago but we tried to make really
good use of the resources that we had so we weren't big enough to have what we call what
you would call a full-time SWAT team like Chicago and New York or LA but we had what
we called our high-risk entry team which was a smaller group of officers that were trained
in specialty entries and those types of things of which I was a member of that team it was
about a six-man and at some point six it was a mixed bed we had males and females in there
and we spent an ungodly amount of time training and when the active shooter thing started
to come into play and we were training in the schools and as we were doing our training
I'm looking at what we're doing and we're supposed to be there training the employees
and the students in the schools and the reality of it was we were there training ourselves
they were getting nothing they were they were our puppets and role players they did exactly
what we told them to do but they learned nothing from it and I thought if you look at the average
response time for law enforcement to arrive at a mess like this and the number of people
that are killed and how quickly they're killed we're not doing anybody any good here but
of course when you're on the job and this is your job and you tell somebody that they
don't want to hear it so I'm quickly shut up and do your training and keep your mouth
shut and you know when I got out of law enforcement I was like I have a solution that's better
for you folks plus I had two daughters that were in the school system and you know I knew
what the schools were doing or not doing they were having local law enforcement come in
and do some training for them so they can simply check the box and I knew it was putting
my kids at risk and I said I'm not I'm not going to do this anymore so this active shooter
thing was a discussion around our dinner table on a nightly basis my two daughters by the
time they graduated high school were better trained than any staff member in that school
on what to do with an active shooter event and I'm very proud of that I'm proud of them
for it you know but you know I tell people all the time when we do these active shooter
trainings said if you've got kids in the school system sit them down and talk to them about
what they're being told to do and how they're doing it and if you know it to be not the
right solution then you train your kids because it matters most to you whether or not they
come home so I'm very disappointed in the way that the schools and law enforcement handles
these things time and time again I see the same mistakes made they are making some strides
but they're so slow and they're so miniscule you know just in order to be effective they
really need to step up their game it needs to be something taught at an academy level
that is standardized across the entire United States I should be able to as a Chicago police
officer respond with an LA county sheriff to an active shooter event in the school and
we all know and are operating under the same protocols standard across the board same thing
with the fire departments and until we get to that point this what we're going to have
is controlled chaos at those events it's interesting because you see you know we're presented a
solution and a good example is John Spiro is a firefighter he was in Aurora and one
of the guys that responded to that shooting and we have like the triage you know and this
there's you know the the things that we look for and then that's supposed to help us decide
if they're deceased if they're red if they're yellow but as he was pointing out when you've
got tear gas and you've got people running for their lives that changes the presentation
of a person now it's in the dark and now you can't tell skin color or you know all these
other things and there's the same with the safe training that we did you know it's kind
of a rescue task force thing that whole kind of latching on and you know in theory is great
but it works in a narrow hallway with classrooms the moment you put it into a different building
or an exterior setting it doesn't work either so I think and I'm hearing people talking
about you know when they are assigned the the the ballistic best and the helmets it's
one size fits all and so you hear you know all these drills and the helmets falling off
and you know the person can't even see past the vest when they're sitting down so I feel
like there's a lot of box checking where they're like oh we did it we did safe training we're
good now rather than actually really kind of diving in properly and then at the same
time equally as importantly not doing it in a way where you're exposing our children to
this rehearsed murder over and over and over again because we're traumatizing them at the
same time yeah yeah and it's um you know I'll have I'll share a story with you so my my
daughter I have two daughters um and my oldest probably got these these speeches more and
more than than the younger younger one did but um she you know when the schools have
an event somewhere anywhere in the country typically the the other schools in the country
their response is pretty standardized right we're going to have an assembly tomorrow to
talk about the event at Columbine High School and we're going to all hold hands and sing
kumbaya not that that's the wrong thing um and then I'm going to assure you that this
could never happen at our school because we have a plan in place and they would leave
it at that and in the middle of one of such presentation my daughter interestingly enough
she's she's actually a quiet kid um kind of a bookworm nerdy type of kid but she raises
her hand in the middle of this auditorium and says what's your plan she goes I don't
want to know what your plan is for me I already know that she said what is your plan if you're
walking down the hall and you encounter the shooter face to face what are you going to
do and he said well I'm gonna call 911 and she goes you're dead you're dead and it the
whole auditorium erupts in applause and the two teachers sitting behind her kind of lean
over and whisper to each other damn right he's dead so it's like you get this junior
in high school who says the quiet part out loud that everybody already knows and is thinking
you know the the media and those people that have control over our lives in these institutions
keep feeding us the emperor's new clothes right nobody's looking at it going this guy's
naked he's not wearing any it's not delicate robes he's it is what it is so the fact that
she uh brought that to everybody's attention was kind of kind of interesting but it doesn't
change things I mean the schools in general continue to go for the box check and spoonfeed
these kids um a lot of bs the lockdowns and whatnot if my kid locked down in her classroom
when there was a window right next to him that she could have gotten out of and gotten
away and got killed because of it I would be beside myself right sometimes you can't
overlook common sense you know and they've done a great job of indoctrinating our kids
to do just that so it's it's a dangerous situation it really is I had a terrifying experience
I took my son for his annual doctor's visit when he was in elementary school and I'm literally
at the front desk signing him back in all of a sudden everyone starts moving I'm like
what the hell is going on and uh they had a code red a legit code red the first one
that they ever had and so they're like Mr. Gearing sorry you're gonna have to come come
in there's a little kind of office behind the desk and you have to come in here and
so I got to see it as a first responder I got to be a parent watching what it's like
for these teachers for these children and they are so vulnerable and there was zero
communication and I get it you know how are you going to disseminate all that amongst
the school of you know a thousand or whatever it was but I was literally in there and it
was kind of like where the photocopier was in all those areas and there was one of those
paper guillotines and I was looking at the guillotine go I'm gonna have to snap that
off and if someone comes in you know I mean there's snowballs chance in hell but that's
all we've got right and it really illustrated how important it was for the SRO and I just
interviewed Dave Grossman again for the third time and when you hear about all these incidences
when someone has actually addressed the shooter almost every single time they're stopped because
that's not in most of these children's minds as they're playing this kind of almost video
game where they are the predator and the prey just scattering everyone now someone whether
it's just with words or with a weapon they they stop them more often than not they drop
the weapon so I think for me having seen the vulnerability and not being a firearm in that
moment and what happened there it was a legitimate threat but the guy was a disgruntled ex of
one of the parents he threatened to come to school and didn't actually come to the school
but if there had been an SRO there with a weapon obviously it would have completely
changed it but a classroom you know a school with no opposition to a firearm you know I
mean you got a firefighter running at someone with a guillotine is your best your best shot
so to me that SRO that that officer in every school is the bare minimum I think to at least
create a deterrent so most of these shooters don't even try in the first place yeah and
you know it's interesting because the SRO positions a lot of times are given to those
individuals that are in the twilight of their career or you know less than stellar individuals
on the street so they're they're moved into this position and the reality of it is those
people that hold those positions probably need more training than the average officer
on the street I mean do you realize what you're asking these guys to do if you've got an active
shooter in a school and you've got an SRO armed with an AR-15 and he is the defense
the school is absolute chaos you've got kids running all over the place it's and now you've
got to find that one individual that is the the target of your problem if you will and
stop it I mean it's just an incredible ask of any human being and I think that the the
the training for these SROs should be highly specialized and it's not it's not that big
of a deal I mean there are all kinds of classes that will train you on how to do these things
and how to deal with send them to the classes if they're going to be effective in this position
you're going to have to train them to do so but you know again budgetary restraints and
you know parents that are I don't want to scare my kids I don't want you know somebody
running around with the an officer in the school with a gun and okay well what what
is the the other choice I mean let's look at what the alternative is here you know this
is the world we live in I didn't create it but boy we got to deal with it yeah I experienced
in my son's middle school what happens when the wrong person is in SRO position and not
so much from a shooter point of view just I mean I won't even get into it because it's
a story I've told many times but they can do a lot of damage too because when they're
not obviously protecting from a school shooter they are interacting with these kids so you
know and I've had a few people on here that's in in good police programs that's where they
send some of their best and obviously they're going to rotate you want to get out there
on the streets and do your job too but they they hold their SROs to a high level and just
like you said I think a lot of departments it's kind of like you know one foot out the
door type one or if even someone's even a problem I would just put them with the kids
well that's all well and good until you get a valde until you get parkland and when they're
called upon they drop the ball and children die yes yeah I you valde you know and I get
questions about this all the time I don't you know my days of having to or feeling obligated
to defend police officers is done you know I call it the way it is if you screw it up
I'm going to tell you you screwed it up I'm to have an incident like you valde in today's
day and age I sat there with my chin on the floor I thought what are these people doing
you know in the days when I was on the the rescue task force if we had an incident like
that you get a supervisor saying for right now we're going to stand down we would have
handcuffed him and sat him on the floor and walked right past him there's no way and yet
we had all of these officers going well he said we're going to stand down we're going
to stand down and I figured some of them would be charged criminally in the end and that's
that's where we're at now plenty of them are being charged and probably appropriately
so but just just a sad state of affairs and until the agency heads march in there and
say and you know I know what society is saying I know you guys are not happy about this but
we're going to control this because we're trained to control this and that's just the
way it is and until that happens we're going to have we're going to see these incidents
time and time again.
Well that's a good segue into you know what we're going to talk about next what I'm seeing
and what you touched on before and we'll take a deeper dive into it is that a lot of these
were happening and and these people in uniform were hired when there was still a high demand
you know it was very competitive and we were testing against thousands of people for a
handful of spots as we've seen this decline now the bar is getting lower and lower and
where you used to take you know five ten percent of a list now you're taking eighty five percent
of the list and so the probability of exactly what we're talking about has increased and
so I mean I've heard firefighters say well if it's a school shoot and I'm not going
in that's not what I'm paid for that's the wrong kind of human being we were in a uniform
I'm sorry I know we don't carry a gun we're not going to go running in when they're when
they're blasting but the moment there's a warm zone you're sure as shit that we're
going to go in there and do whatever we can to get those kids out so you've got a very
unique perspective you got into the world of you know background checks talk to me through
this unique lens that you have as far as the actual numbers that you've seen in this declining
recruitment crisis in your profession of mine yeah and it's it's on both sides probably
worse and on the law enforcement side than it is in the fire side but both have declined
so rapidly and so drastically I sometimes I can't keep my head on straight so cls background
investigations we've always specialized in backgrounds for public service police and
fire and that's because we've got that's our background we we come from that area and we
know what it takes to fill those roles properly so with that perspective we I'm confident
in saying that we do this better than anybody else in the country for fire and police we
started the company in 2000 and I would say from 2000 to 2016 17 fire and police backgrounds
was probably about 25 percent of our business others were everything from tenancy screening
to donut clerks I mean we did backgrounds for just about everything today and I would
say the last five six years police and fire backgrounds is about 85 percent of our business
so much so that we don't actively pursue anything except public service backgrounds I'm seeing
agencies that are in a perpetual state of testing constantly some of the fire agencies
that we do work for I'll call and say I need to speak to Jeff Smith and they're like you
know what he can't come to the phone right now he's driving the ambulance today so you've
got chiefs out there driving the ambulance because they don't have enough people to staff
their their agency it's unlike anything that I've ever seen and the candidates that are
coming through you know you've got people that are applying to be full-time firefighters
that have extensive criminal histories you've got people that are admitting to extensive
recreational drug use and I'm not talking about you know smoking a little weed here
and there I'm talking about cocaine and LSD and mushrooms all during the time frame when
they were on the job for another agency so the it's not just the the the decline of people
that are interested but those people that are showing some interest the decline of the
individuals that are presenting themselves for consideration is just nauseating I've
never seen anything like it and unfortunately you know you see agencies and agency heads
so desperate to fill their rosters that they start to dial back their requirements and
they're like well maybe we'll give this guy another shot like he just admitted to you
know cocaine use six months ago how do you how do you hire this guy and say we're going
to give him a shot it's it just baffles me but I get it they're just so desperate for
people and nothing seems to be primarily in law enforcement but even on the fire side
nothing seems to be enticing the good people in so you might have some some insight that
that I can share because it's been something else.
As we touched on earlier and obviously with you being Chicago I have one of your brother
police officers Wynn I'm trying to remember his last name now it's fallen out my head
but he really opened up about the city of Chicago and the pendulum swinging and the
organizational betrayal and you know the mass exodus from that particular department and
it's understandable and anyone watches the news around that kind of you know disastrous
2022-2022 era I mean it was just complete politicking there was no common sense middle
ground loyalty at all in my profession though you know even though it's arguably almost
what they call virtue signaling you know like thank you for your service but then when it
comes to hiring firefighters there's no support anywhere what I've realized is for us it's
our actual work environment that's really shot us in the foot and the Wall Street Journal
just did an article I shared a couple weeks ago the generation now Gen Z are actually
leaning into the trades and the reason being you've got this information age now where
everything is accessible and as you said earlier you can research different departments you
know what are their work weeks how much do they pay what are their benefits and they're
looking at college and going wow so 30 40 50 thousand dollars in debt and I get a piece
of paper doesn't guarantee me a job that sounds terrible and so they look at you know our
professions and they look at the fire to go 56 hours of work a week and then the mandatory
overtime makes it an 80 hour work week and then you've got the pay which you know seems
good but then when you divide it by 56 actually isn't very good at all you know and then you
look at the if you google is it healthy to be a firefighter which I did the other day
it says cancer suicide divorce all the things so these young people are getting the whole
picture when you came on you would have done it for free when I came on I forgot about
this I was just talking about this the other day they didn't tell us what the salary was
for my first apartment I went in completely blind and it was shit when we finally found
out but that's how competitive it was we just wanted to do the job now these people are
understanding okay this is what the entirety of the job looks like and it's an honorable
honorable profession it's a calling but these young people they value their mental health
they value their physical health and they value their relationships so looking at my
profession they're like I love the calling but that's just not going to work I want to
have you know a healthy family I want to stay married I want to have a good relationship
with my kids so that is the thing but what's beautiful in Florida is now they're starting
to be a shift where the most progressive departments are understanding that and they're moving
to a 42-hour work week which all you're doing is taking the money that you're bleeding downstream
and you're investing it in the front hiring more firefighters and filling all those vacant
spots and they're filled with these young people that are starting to come to our departments
now because they're like they get it they actually value their people so even though
there's an element of that in law enforcement I think that's where yours and mine are different
is we have that public support it's our lack of leadership and the devolution of our working
environment that's hurt our recruitment our retention so the beautiful thing is you fix
those things you don't need for the media to turn around on their opinion on fire we're
already somewhat loved so if we fix that as these departments in Florida have already
seen now people start lining up outside your door and wanting to work for you again interesting
yeah it's um you know and when I was at this uh doing this presentation at this conference
um they had a psychologist there who actually co-presented with me for a portion of it and
he was talking about what people that go into the fire industry um when when interviewed
and asked what's what's your draw a lot of them said that it was the camaraderie whether
it's perceived or something that they've experienced at another agency they they were seeking out
that brotherhood and grant it whether it's police or fire at least back in the day there
was nothing like it right it was something that um you couldn't get anywhere else and
you couldn't really explain it to somebody that had not done it and I think that the
people that are seeking that out are getting fewer and further between right um like you
said the the younger folks are they have other desires other things that it's not so much
how much time I spend at work and what my work life is like it's how much time are you
going to give me away from work so I can do the things that I want to do and spend time
with my family or whatever the case may be um so it's a different dynamic it's a different
type of person but if you're telling me that you're starting to see those people that are
more dedicated to the the service coming back in that's actually a breath of fresh air um
and I I really hope that it it uh you know filters through across the country but took
us a long time to get here and it's going to take a long time to get back you know well
I think interesting though like you said around 2016 is when you had that jump and I'm assuming
that you had mostly first responders because so many agencies were were hiring and doing
background checks now but it's about 10 years that's it 10 years ago it was still really
competitive probably 20 years ago is even more competitive but 10 years we were still
in a good place so arguably it's descended incredibly quickly so I think that we can
you know the beauty of a crisis is you're forced to actually make change and Florida
we've we were in kind of a beginning of a revolution now last year seven fire departments
went to this new schedule the year before one did and then they kind of broke the seal
and then and I was just presenting of a local county the other day who I'm hoping they're
going to make the move to so it really is exciting because those people are out there
like I said these the trades are being lent into by these young people they want to work
with their hands but that work life balance and I know it's kind of a cliche term but
we just destroyed our first responders I mean we just worked to get to the ground so and
you know that camaraderie and that brotherhood and that sisterhood a thousand percent like
my my crew truck one from Anaheim I got married I think 10 years after I left Anaheim if I'm
not mistaken and all my best men were were from there so you know that that's that's
the kind of bond that you get so your job is the job like it hasn't changed you know
it's an it's an amazing calling but you have to create an environment that makes a cohesive
group and I think that when the bar is lowered you don't get that shared suffering you don't
get that cohesion when you have a lot of people testing you can put that bar back high where
it's supposed to be and if you go through that crucible you've earned your place in
that department then yes absolutely absolutely and when you've got people that you're you
know I've been on on the phone like I said with with chiefs recently and as I'm discussing
these applicants with them I can actually see them lowering the bar during our phone
conversation saying well maybe we're going to give this guy a shot and I'm thinking but
what does that do the rest of the apples in the barrel you know you're bringing this person
in he's going to be toxic to the agency the agency that he's leaving can't wait to get
rid of them I had the chief over there say listen I'm not going to tell him this but
if they hire this guy I'm going to send pizzas over for the department because he's my biggest
headache so they're looking to get rid of them and they're passing the buck on to somebody
else you know the the departments that we have that are the most successful are the
ones that dig their heels in and say look I am not lowering my standards these are the
standards we've had in fact while everybody else is lowering their standards I am going
to raise mine because I want people to come to my agency not because of the pay not because
of the vacation time but because they have heard from their peers that this is the best
agency in the state to work for that's what I want and I want them beaten down my door
to get here and those are the ones that seem to have the least problems with with their
employees so it's and it's sometimes they lose a lot of people as a result of it but
are you losing a lot of people or are you losing a lot of problems right if you're not
bringing them in to begin with you're probably losing the problems that you would have later
on there was a perfect example anaheim and I've worked for some great agencies but anaheim
their bar was super high and I actually did the the c-pat which is our physical test when
I was getting ready to move back east and I wanted to you know being humble I'm like
well let me make sure I can do really well on this when I go and test I perform well
and get myself you know high on that list and the guys running it said they'd never
met a guy that never left anaheim fire department before and anaheim when you got hired I tested
against a thousand people for 30 spots and when you got hired every single class they
would lose 25 percent of their guys on probation by the end of the year through attrition because
the bar was there and if you didn't meet it they you know no hard feelings there's lots
of other agencies that will take you but you're just not cut out for anaheim conversely the
last place I worked at the bar was in a trench and you know you would have you know let's
say 30 spots and I'm not exaggerating maybe 40 35 people will be testing and on paper
they had a better work week and some other things but when it came to actually doing
the job and how they were perceived it was the polar opposite and there were some great
people within that department but that was despite the department not because of it yeah
yeah and when you talk about the bar being so high that you know getting the position
is like getting accepted as and making it through naval you know navy seal training
school those are the people I want responding to my house right when I'm calling for help
because my my family member is down having a heart attack and I'm in panic mode and I
can't perform CPR I want somebody there that is that has really really competed for that
job really wants to be there and is going to serve me well and when we start to get
a pool of those individuals coming back into the into our midst then we're going to turn
this whole thing around you know give you an example you know Chicago police department
they give a test every couple of years I think they're testing every year now but they typically
when they give a written exam we'll get 35 to 40,000 applicants come out to take that
test the last one they did they had 700 it's crazy 700 yeah and and out of that 700 my
what I was told by my sources is 50% of them would never pass the background so I mean
that's what you're left with it's just it's it's very it's not good for society as a whole
but you know I'm hoping that we can at least do our part to help to make sure that when
you hire a firefighter that you know my philosophy is this when you send me an applicant say
do a background on this individual male female doesn't make any difference to me our system
is very blind but it is my job to find a reason why you should not hire that person and if
I can't then you might be on the road to having a good employee it's just that simple.
One of the pushbacks I get as well you know we can't even afford you know people now how
are we going to afford another shift and when again it's it's pretty sad that I'm able to
figure this out because I'm not an intelligent guy at all but if you look at just the basic
you know economy there's a term false economy you know if you look downstream and you've
got 25% of your department is vacant so you're filling it with overtime at time and a half
and now you're forcing your people to work 80 hour work weeks to fill those spots and
then you have this as we said this revolving door when it comes to recruitment and retention
so you're spending 20 grand for every single person you hire who two three years walks
out the back door there are 10 in Chicago for example will be hundreds of millions in
locally here it's tens of millions of dollars that in itself has been enough to justify
most departments saying okay enough is enough let's take that money let's let's hire another
shift now we have four shifts and now it's a 42 hour work week let's bring these people
in you just before we hit record though gave me another really interesting statistic as
far as the financial element because sadly as much as I would love to think that a lot
of these leaders care when you know our men and women pass away and that will be enough
to make change usually it's dollars and cents that actually gets people's attention so talk
to me about the the cost that you discovered of every single bad apple trying to get rid
of them in a department.
Yeah and I knew when I presented the question that it was going to be that the number was
going to be high I guess that the number that I was that I received from the masses was
higher than I expected that it would be but it still didn't surprise me so during a presentation
that I was doing in a room full of fire chiefs and upper management for the agencies as well
as commissioners and trustees and whatnot the question I asked was for those of you
that have had a bad hire what was the cost associated with getting that hire terminated
from the agency or removing getting them separated and I didn't want details of the incident
I didn't want names I just wanted a dollar figure and the dollar figure that was thrown
out to me was five hundred thousand dollars now I don't know how long it took them because
no matter what the dollar figure is if you take the time component which is probably
years to get this person removed from or separated from the agency you could probably take that
figure and triple it easily because he or she is not at work so again like you said
you're filling his slot with overtime to accommodate the needs of the agency perhaps he's off on
some kind of workman's comp claim and now you know your insurance company is paying
to have him followed around and attorney's fees and all of those types of things that
drag on for years and in the meantime what it's doing to everybody else that works there
is poisoning the other apples in the barrel because this is what they see is this the
agency I want to work with is this is this where I want to make my career for the next
twenty five years and the answer is no if this is the way you handle these things no
if this is what you're going to hire and these are going to be my co-workers I don't want
to stay here and then they start testing and looking elsewhere and it becomes this vicious
cycle so it was pretty interesting to see and I ended up talking to the individual that
threw the number out after the presentation and because then they asked you know what
is the cost to do a properly conducted background I said it pales in comparison but ultimately
it would have been had they done things the right way they would have never hired this
individual they would have known that there was a problem and they wouldn't have brought
him out so it's a lot of money.
It is and again I'm not an economist but I mean if you just look downstream I mean it's
so obvious you know and then now you have these other departments that have done it
that will gladly say here's where we found it you know and that's not even counting if
you imagine a healthier workforce the workman's comp premium is going to come down the medical
disability payments are going to come down line of duty death god forbid is going to
come down lawsuits from when we make mistakes because you not only hired the wrong person
but you know in other cases you've got great firefighters but they're so damn sleep deprived
you know the police officer that has the wreck in the intersection or you know does happen
to shoot the the teen that's reaching for his driving license because he's so exhausted
and has been forced to do another shift that he thinks he's going for a gun I mean these
are all dollar amounts as well so there's so much money downstream that we can tap into
but you just have to understand or or even take a step back and think to ask for a forensic
analysis of the downstream cash.
Sure yeah yeah and like you said a lot of agencies don't that never even crosses their
mind now hopefully maybe maybe some of them are starting to wake up and and smell the
coffee a little bit and go hey you know what there's there's something to be said for this
what is it going to cost us long term just in in lawyers fees if you've got somebody
that you've got to separate from the department the first thing you're going to do is call
call the agency's attorney as soon as his phone rings the meter starts running I figure
when that guy throws out a figure of five hundred thousand dollars probably half of that is lawyers fees
and the other half was settlement fees to get the guy to resign right doesn't take into
account anything else that how what it did to the agency over the course of the time
that he was there the overtime that it cost to fill his slots all of those and I don't
know the details of the case it doesn't make any difference ultimately if you've got time
involved and you're generally never going to be able to whistle either a firefighter
or a law enforcement officer in because they've got a lot of times union protections or civil
service protections and say as of tomorrow you no longer work here have a nice day it
doesn't work that way it is a long process to get them gone so once you factor all of
that in probably that five hundred thousand dollar figure was probably more like one point
two one point three would be my guess I saw an article it was thinking was on social media
but it was it was bouncing around recently and it was I don't think I even read the whole
thing but it showed how many police police recruits had died during I believe it was
the academy and again you know there's an opportunity to have those standards even at
the academy level for the safety of the recruit there's some people that just aren't ready
to do this yet you know it's my profession you're going in bunker gear you're climbing
stairs in Cumber you're going into burn buildings you know you climb in a hundred foot aerial
that's not an environment for someone who's ill prepared so this lowering of standards
is even making it dangerous for our young recruits in the first place sure sure and
I can remember back in the day and I'm sure it's no different now I mean the police in
the fire although when it comes to responding together don't necessarily communicate well
there still seems to be a common bond between them you know I would stop by the firehouse
in my jurisdiction all the time and talk to those guys and one of the the common threads
was that the fire department the the firefighters always thought that the police were kind of
nuts for doing what they did for a living and conversely the same thing I'm like look
I'm not putting on 200 pounds worth of gear and running into a burning building with a
hose you are out of your mind but you know we each had a mutual respect for what the
other one did and it was just kind of funny you know to to see how that worked but you're
right I mean the the physical and you look at you know law enforcement on a daily basis
they drive around and we always said it was 95 absolute boredom and five percent complete
adrenaline dump what other job does that right I mean you're stagnant in the squad car eating
McDonald's french fries out of a bag on the seat next to you and and then 30 seconds later
you're you're jumping fences chained chasing some offender in a from an armed robbery who's
turning around with a pistol in his hand I mean it's the to go from zero to where you're
at and the same with the firefighters you're two o'clock in the morning sleeping in your
bunk and 30 seconds later you're trying to put your pants on outside this this fire rig
to to go run into a burning building I mean it's what it takes to do those jobs is a lot
and there are people out there that are willing to do it like you said it's truly a calling
we just got to find them again you know and we've got to find them and we've got to let
them know that this is a position that you earn it's not given to you you earn this if
you make it through probation and you're a member of this department damn it you deserve
to be here you earned it not because we had a hole in the roster and we needed to fill
it but because I trust you to save my life when shit hits the fan I've seen the fire
department leaning into hiring straight from high school now 18 year olds and when I've
spoken to a lot of the people in the kind of psychology and neuroscience world they've
said you know just how irresponsible that is that the young brain isn't ready for that
kind of trauma what is your perspective on you know coming from a profession where 21
is usually the hiring age on lowering that age in my profession well I don't know that's
a that's a good question I look at some of the the law enforcement people that I see
coming on the job now at 21 and think you look like a 14 year old kid you know and you
got a gun strap to your side this just doesn't look right then I try to remember that I didn't
look any different when I first got the job either you know I'm not you you're asking
that to get into the psyche of the individual and I think it's it's really on a person by
person basis you know maybe there's there's I don't know that you can drop the age limit
automatically and say at 18 we're going to take you at 18 we're going to take you if
you pass these additional components or you have this additional training perhaps you
know not only does that tell you that they've had the additional training and those components
but that they've got the dedication to go through it right so if I've got an 18 year
old kid and I would have done this when when I got on the job James is a policeman if they
had told me I needed to pitch a tent in the middle of winter on the front lawn of the
police department lived in it for a week I'd have been out there in 30 seconds right so
if you've got a kid that comes on and says I'm 18 I want to do this job I want to be
a firefighter I'm willing to take the extra classes go through the extra exams whatever
it takes I want to do this do I think that he or she should be excluded I think you'd
be sorely mistaken to do that because you're taking what what is potentially a great career
employee and saying you know what you got to wait a couple more years what's to say
he's going to wait what's to say he's going to wait he goes on to something else right
I wanted you so bad I could couldn't stand it you didn't want me so I moved on right
this is a relationship more than it is a career so I I don't know that dropping the age limit
as a standard would be the greatest of ideas but if you examine each one on a case by case
basis which again is going to cost more money on the front end but what you could get and
end up with an employee that stays with you for 40 years and ends up being one of the
best assets of the entire department well speaking of that then selection one of the
the truths and one and I tested for four departments I worked for four departments so I had three
polygraphs and four psych tests the polygraph when I did the research I realized oh it's
a magic show and as long as you don't confess then you're good to go and so had no problems
going through all those you know I did some things when I was younger that didn't negatively
affect anything but I learned very early on in the fire recruitment process that if you're
completely honest about everything then you're excluded like they want you to be a choirboy
they did nothing but read a bible for 21 years of your life which is a shame because I think
it you know it's gonna promote dishonesty but um but then with the side test you know
it's it's the ones called the MMPI and I had it over and over again and it's the ones where
it's like literally thousands of questions you know do you like skateboarding do you
like the rain do you like flowers do you like touching kids do you like dogs and whoa what
was that last one and it's and then you speak to people and I've obviously got to speak
to a lot now in that world psychology psychiatry and they said that was never meant to be a
standalone test full stop especially not to determine someone you know to be able to be
a first responder or not it's one of many tests for forensic psychology to give an overall
perspective of someone and so we have this this you know polygraph which you know arguably
is not accurate we have the MMPI which is a completely inaccurate test for what we're
saying it's going to work for so my whole thing has been we know that our our profession
is full of young men and women that have had some things happen when we were younger and
arguably that's what sent us into the uniform and those things when process can become absolute
strengths but if left unaddressed they can become fractures of our foundation so to me
I think that we should take that money that we wasted on those other modalities and put
it into counseling from day one so you know even on probation you you do your PT where
you also have your sessions and you speak to your counselor you develop a relationship
you start talking about your early life and now you're off to the races and you've normalized
that element of the job but obviously then it's like well how are we going to screen
people I think this is the thing is what we're what you're offering what you've done for
your career is the most important point up to this point if someone has done things that
really are going to be detrimental to this profession it's going to show itself in you
know the background checks because site tests as we've seen they just unless you're willing
to invest thousands into each candidate and do a full forensic psychology exam you're
not going to find it with a single test so talk to me about the depth of the background
check and how how confident are you of finding the right kind of candidate through this system
that you guys have developed yeah so all great points and and great questions and you know
it would be I would be being dishonest if I said that there is a magic bullet for this
right have we done backgrounds on people that have then gotten onto a department and end
up being not such a great employee I'm sure we have no doubt about it but so have all
of those other components failed at some point as well I will tell you that what what I think
makes us excel in this particular area because if you look at a background as a whole a lot
of components of it are standard across the board I mean certainly we are going to run
your criminal histories to find out what you've got convictions in and and we're going to
run your social security number to make sure that we know that you are who you claim to
be and your driving records and are there any variations of your name that we need to
be concerned with but what really makes the difference with us is the interview process
and it is not again any magic bullet but most of our people are from a law enforcement background
and I don't want to call these things interrogations they're not but we have a pre printed battery
of questions that we ask and what what our investigators recognize is when something
is said to get them to probe a little further right 90 percent of the kiss of death backgrounds
that we do for firefighters is caught up in the candidate interview they admit to this
stuff I mean there are times that I've had to pull the phone off my ear because I'm laughing
so hard trying to take notes because I can't believe that this person is telling me what
to tell me and again I think that the presumption is that we're going to find out anyway so
I might as well be honest about this and maybe I get some extra points for honesty and they
feel that we're going to find out anyway because we tell them that or we tell them that we
already know I don't I'm not asking you questions that I don't already know the answers to they
know that they're going to have a background they don't really know when it started they
don't know how long we've had their information and what we've been doing before that phone
call occurs so it puts them in a very uneasy position and a lot of times they just vomit
out information that is killer for them now could they possibly learn over time that hey
every time I say this I don't get the job potentially but we've gotten to the point
we we we service about 65 different agencies in Illinois alone so a lot of the times we're
doing a background on a guy who were doing the same background for four different agencies
at the same time so if you leave this out of this interview but I know you said it on
that interview the agent's going to call you back and say hey last week I talked and you
said that you were doing cocaine on the weekend four weeks ago but you left it out over here
we need to talk about that and we make sure that the the reports are accurate on both
sides and the the agencies then you know appreciate that obviously because they can address these
issues up front we don't make any suggestions or recommendations unsuitability you know
if I tell you that this guy spent four years in prison for criminal sexual assault and
you decide you're going to hire him anyway that is your business but I want to make sure
that if he spent four years in the joint for criminal sexual assault and it's reportable
that you know about it and then you make the decision so yeah it's the magic sauce is in
the interviews but that being said you know when you do these backgrounds there's there's
this magic element out there called the Fair Credit Reporting Act the FCRA is what governs
background investigations and it doesn't matter if you're doing credit reports or not in fact
we don't do credit reporting for any of our fire candidates it's not pertinent to the
job it makes no difference but the same rules apply so for instance I can not report to
you that your candidate was arrested six times for domestic abuse can't tell you that if
he's got a conviction I can tell you that but it's got to be a conviction it's a different
ball game so we focus in then on the behaviors during the interviews and they've got to be
very carefully worded and read to the applicant word for word now once he or she starts to
speak certainly I can say do tell or tell me more or keep going or don't say anything
because soon as you're quiet they figure well he's silent that must be my turn to talk and
they keep going so we write all of those things down and they end up in the report but if
you ask the wrong questions the wrong way you're going to end up in court over this
and it's our job as well as to find you the best candidates is to make sure that you're
doing this the right way so that when the candidate says I was not offered this position
because of a faulty background you've got the your attorney's got the the the steam
that they need to go into court and say it wasn't faulty and here it is so all very very
important components this is why having those agencies that either do these internally or
worse yet let their police departments do it for them you might as stop doing them all
together rather than have the police department do it just don't if that's your approach
don't do it because there's all kinds of issues with that.
That's so interesting when when I first started testing after the academy I moved down to
South Florida and we did this you do one test you do the the fire ground stuff you do the
EMS skills and you do a written and then they send the results to multiple agencies I think
it's called the fire team and Miami Beach fire had one of their guys there and they
had a pre-app and again you're talking about being honest you know we put it everything
down and yeah years ago when I lived in Japan I did this thing and you know that was the
only time I did it during that very short period and he literally screwed it up and
threw it in my face I was like you're disqualified I'm like oh okay so then from there on in
I'm like well I'll withhold that truth and right you know everything else is like on
board you know no no issues at all but it really made me realize that again like I said
that choir boy thing there in our profession there's that gray area for a good firefighter
for a good cop for a good paramedic you know you don't want the white I mean the whiter
than white person might be amazing but chances are a slightly colored you know early life
is going to give you you know a good first responder so where is that line of course
crimes against children you know stealing narcotics I mean there's there's obvious ones
where yeah it's a complete you know disqualification but you look at some of these you know the
wildland convict crews inmate crews and and how they can actually go into the the wildland
fire service you know you hear some of these stories where people have been able to get
past some mistakes that they made earlier and they became great firefighters police officers
paramedics doctors nurses so you know what's your perspective on on that you know I think
early on when we had so many people they almost could say well you just need to have never
done anything ever but I think that's very unrealistic especially finding the right kind
of person that can deal with these stresses and interact with some of these people on
the streets if all you've ever known is bible study and you know whatever correct and I'll
give you a couple of quick stories with regard to that so during the later years in my career
because of the things that I did with regard to backgrounds and and having this company
and I actually wrote all of the policies practices and procedures for the background program
for my agency and during that time I had some discussions with the agency had the chief
the deputy chief and there it had always been that you know they had a zero tolerance policy
for onboarding these folks with regard to drugs any kind of drugs so they were throwing
people to the end of the gutter that had were admitting to smoke and marijuana it was that
that strict but they wanted to require at least a two-year college degree and I said
you can't have both if this guy went to college he smoked weed at some point you know that's
just it's it's one of the things that happens in college I said so if you're looking for
somebody that's got a two-year degree in criminal justice and can say I've never tried cannabis
I said you're really limiting and getting rid of some good potential candidates here
and it made them change the the policy with regard to you know that that cannabis thing
and you know the Fed used to be any any use of drugs whatsoever was a deal breaker I mean
if you came in and said yeah I tried marijuana in high school you can't ever be a federal
agent they've they've dialed that that stuff back and I think that you're right that it's
it's interesting that they assume that because you have dabbled in some of these things that
you are going to be a defective first responder when I was first on the job riding with my
field training officer we responded with a neighboring town to a very large party underage
drinking party there probably were a hundred kids in this house and when we got there they
scrambled like rats now I found it to be quite amusing because I was doing the same shit
18 months earlier and when these all ran out of the house and we walked through and the
the lead officer on the call said all right everybody's gone I said they're not they're
not gone he said I'm telling you rookie I've been through that house there's nobody in
there I said I'll bet you I can go in there and find at least five people so they let
me walk through the house and I walked down the hall and there was one of those sets of
attic stairs in the hall and I grabbed the poor and I pulled it three of them rolled
down the stairs at our feet went down into the basement and they've got these long curtains
covering the window and you can see feet sticking out from behind the curtains so I'm moving
the curtains and they're all running out the door and you know my my training officer said
what made you think that you could go in there and find those kids I said because I hid in
the same spots a year ago I said the fact that I did these things gives me the insight
to know how to deal with it right and I think within reason it is a mistake to dismiss anybody
that's got any indiscretions in their past as being unable to be a first responder that
is not true it's just not yeah well the irony now is the two things that I tried one of
which when I was in Japan was legal the other one wasn't but they're both being used now
for PTSD and first responders of military so we've gone full circle you know where the
things that I was vilified for you can actually I mean soon will be I'm sure legal and be
able to use in a therapeutic way and in many many ways so you know we look at these kind
of stigmas and these these beliefs that we were so entrenched in 20 years ago and then
you've got to have the humility and step back and go yeah maybe we were wrong it's okay
that we were wrong at the time we thought we were right but when when do we finally
go okay we're going to change the way we think now yeah yeah you don't have and certainly
those things become legal once the government decides hey we can tax this same thing applies
you know to cannabis which is a nationwide rolling wave you know they're they're taxing
it to death and now all of a sudden because they can tax it it's okay for everybody to
smoke it well I don't really see that much difference between cannabis and alcohol to
be honest with you it's it's the way in which it's applied that's problematic so do I have
a problem with a firefighter that goes home on his days off and and smokes a joint because
that's what he does to relax not particularly just don't come to work under the influence
and don't come to my house smelling like it right those are my requests unfortunately
some of these people don't have the common sense to do that you know I've had how when
was the last time you went anywhere James where you weren't walking down the street
going somebody here smoking weed you know or pull up at an intersection and somebody's
got their windows cracked down it's illegal to smoke it while you're on or drive while
you're under the influence of it and yet you can smell it coming out of the windows of
the car next to you so it gets abused right the privileges or the lack of restriction
gets abused and then everybody suffers for it so but to to create blanket policies and
in fact there's there's laws against it the EEOC has issued some opinions with regard
to backgrounds in particular that you know you cannot create a blanket policy that says
anybody that's convicted of a crime cannot work here anyone that's ever used illegal
drugs cannot work here you cannot do that you're going to get yourself sued for it so
it's got to be on a case-by-case basis and that's probably the way it should be absolutely
so to kind of summarize them for people listening talk to me about the the different services
that you offer and where people can find it yeah so we are on the web obviously cls-ent.com
is cls background investigations but we've taken the services that we offer and you know
we've talked about a number of things here James to include the the private investigations
component the background component and the active shooter component we've taken all of
those things and this is a an unintentional byproduct of the backgrounds as well and created
a workplace violence mitigation solution right so if you're screening your people before
you hire them you're less likely to let the fox into the hen house if you have policies
practices and procedures in place that support a safe working environment as it applies to
mitigating workplace violence you're less likely to have a situation that involves that
and if you take active shooter training and train the people that have qualified to become
part of your employment family you have even less of a risk so if you go to workplace violence
mitigation.com you will find all of our services listed there broken down individually into
what they do and then how they work together to create a solution that reduces the risk
of having a workplace violence incident in your place of business.
Fantastic well I want to throw some quick closing questions at you before I let you
go if that's okay.
Sure absolutely.
The first one I love to ask is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend
it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
I got to make a pitch here I actually wrote a book on active shooter response it is called
if you're looking for a victim keep looking.
You can find it on Amazon it's a very easy read I want to say the whole thing is about
115 pages and it's probably at this point less than 15 bucks but it discusses and it's
peppered in with stories from the field so things that I actually experienced while I
was on the job and how it applies to the mitigation of workplace violence and active shooter stuff.
There are a couple of books that I have read one of which is called Left of Bang which
is written by a Marine that was a trainer and the whole concept of Left of Bang is situational
awareness paying attention to what is around you so that you can take action before the
explosion goes off before it turns bad.
That is another one that I recommend and finally which one that I'm sure a number of your
listeners have already read is called The Gift of Fear and it is again a book about
kind of situational awareness and not ignoring the sixth sense or the uneasy feeling that
you get when you're walking into the gas station you're just like something's not right here
shouldn't be going in then don't go in.
So it kind of explores the psyche of all of that I found that that was also a very interesting
and helpful read.
I just literally yesterday saw a video on social media and it was again a sound bite
that you know a minute or so but it was someone I'm assuming from the law enforcement community
talking about cases where someone's had a sixth sense but say the example they give
is you know the elevator opens up they're about to get in and whoever is presented in
front of them kind of makes them feel ill at ease but because of again the political
environment they're like well you know I don't want to appear a certain way so I'm going
to get in in that particular situation with that particular individual it was a bad choice
so the whole takeaway was you know don't let you know that kind of pressure negate that
feeling that animalistic feeling that we all get that might be actually there to save your
life.
Yeah it's there for a reason God puts it there for a reason pay attention to it.
Absolutely what about films and documentaries?
There was a documentary actually a couple of documentaries that I just watched the other
day with my wife on the Gabby Petito case that I thought was very good very interesting.
There was a similar one and I it was on Netflix I cannot remember the name of it about a young
lady that was kidnapped and I wish I could remember the name of the James but ultimately
she was kidnapped it was a weird situation she was legitimately kidnapped and held captive
for a number of days she was sexually assaulted multiple times by this guy and ultimately
he ended up taking her back to her childhood neighborhood and releasing her within blocks
of her parents house and when she reported the incident to the police because it sounded
so bizarre they dismissed it as being BS and he ended up being arrested a couple years
later as a serial killer and he had done this many other times and it the I think what made
me so interested in it was the fact that the the police so blatantly dismissed all of her
story just like it did it sounded bizarre but the bizarre ones are usually the ones
that are true so a horrible failure on their part so that was again another one that that
I really enjoyed.
Films I try not to you know we all have our favorites and that we're like from the time
we were kids I like the the the the Rocky series from when I was a kid and you know
I always like those movies that portray an underdog that continues to fight until he
comes out on top he or she comes out on top I find those very inspirational and amazing
and it gives me what I need to look at my life and go all right if if truth or not whether
this is fiction or it's it's actual the way it is the fact that this person wouldn't
quit God know where they wanted to be therefore I need to get up at 5 30 instead of six tomorrow
because I got things to do so yeah those are those would be my answers to that.
I think I've had Rocky named more than any other film when I've asked this question
and it's funny you think back to young Sylvester Stallone that was struggling to work in Hollywood
so ended up writing his own script who'd have thought that it would be held up as one of
the best stories we've had on screen.
And you know I think what's actually a better story than the movie itself is his story Sylvester
Stallone is an amazing individual whether you like him or you don't like him the fact
that he fought tooth and nail to get to where he he to become what he actually became is
just an amazing story.
Yeah absolutely well speaking of amazing people is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders military and associated professions
of the world.
Oh boy.
I have one the one individual that comes to mind is a good friend of mine that that retired
from the job and he's the only officer that I know firsthand that was involved in a line
of duty shooting where he actually was forced to take someone's life.
Now I I've talked to him about it a couple of times.
It was probably 10 12 years ago.
I don't know how open he would be to discussing it but the story itself is is amazing.
It was a suicide by cop situation female and you know just a brutal situation to be in
and he and one other officer ended up having to to end that threat and he's the first one
that that comes to my mind that would would be a good one to to discuss that kind of situation
and the recovery from such an impactful event.
So I can try to hook you up with him.
I'd be happy to and see if he's willing to come on and discuss it.
I'd love to hear the discussion that you have with him but it's it's more focused on the
law enforcement side.
If that doesn't bother you then I'll you know reach out to him and see what he says.
Yeah no I have my guests from all over the place but I've had a lot of cops on here and
I think that's that's an area I didn't even understand it fully until someone said to
me probably like a year ago or now but they were saying yeah in certain religions Christianity
being one of them if someone truly believes that suicide is a sin then it's a kind of
loophole in their mind and they're distorted thinking that well if I just get someone to
take my life for me then technically I haven't committed suicide and then I'll still go to
heaven but what a burden I mean firstly how how sad that person is to get to that point
of crisis and you know to feel like that's the only option but then to put that burden
on the officer who has to live with that the rest of their life I mean yeah that's an important
story to tell I think.
Yeah yeah.
Absolutely all right well then the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to
find you what do you do to decompress?
Not enough.
Actually what do I do to decompress I am a guitar player and when when I can get my time
alone in in my studio which is nothing more than a bedroom where I keep these things I
can actually just kind of melt into the music that I love and and enjoy playing and you
know what typically starts out to be a 15 minute session ends up being three hours before
I realized I've been out of commission that long so I really really love that and I would
say that that is probably the one thing that kind of takes me away from everything else
that I've got going on so yeah that would be that would be my answer there.
Brilliant well you mentioned the sites where people can find the work what about you personally
if someone wants to reach out where are the best places online or social media?
Yeah I'm on LinkedIn under my name directly and there's not many of us out there with
that last name if you throw that in I'm bound to pop up and then you know our on the website
is our office phone number they feel free to leave a message with the switchboard I
return all calls that are left with my name on them so if somebody says I'm calling for
Dan I will call you back we are not that that swamped where I cannot carve out some time
to make a phone call and then usually once we have the first initial conversation start
an email thread happy to give my email it's my first name Dan period my last name at cls-ent.com
you can reach me there as well and then James if you know certainly I'm connected with you
on LinkedIn as well so if somebody has questions and you want to direct them my way because
it's in my wheelhouse be happy to follow up that way as well.
I appreciate it thank you well we have gone all over the place in this conversation but
I think there's so much value in in the lens that you have not only in law enforcement
but in the background check well I mean your perspective on the recruitment crisis and
again optimistically this this swinging the other way now the pendulum I think is invaluable
and some of the things that you brought to the table I think hopefully will be great
tools for people moving forward so I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on Behind the Shield podcast today absolutely and I want to thank
you for having me it's been a lot of fun and I hope that our connection grows from here
and we can help each other out going forward.