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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast,

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and that is Rescue 1 CBD.

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For any of you who have listened to this podcast for the last eight years, you will have heard

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my own personal journey from using prescription pills after a knee surgery to finding CBD

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and having incredible success with that.

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I then saw my son's wheezing diminish, my wife's anxiety, and so many more kind of success

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The problem is though, I've also seen the stigma and misunderstanding about this incredibly

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When it comes to workplace drug testing, it's THC that they are looking for.

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The concentration is higher in marijuana, but there is a small amount in most CBD products.

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And with John being a veteran firefighter paramedic himself, he was determined to find

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a product that was pure, that would ensure there was nothing in there that would put

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someone's career at risk.

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So he developed a three tier system.

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The third party testing facility tests to parts per billion, which is the most minute

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The results of every batch are posted on their website so you can literally see the same

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pure and safe product.

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Thirdly, they've just finished a year long study with the University of Maryland and

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Arcadia University and firefighters from all over the country sent in their urine samples

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and not a single person failed a drug test.

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So you have three different tiers of trust with this particular product.

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Now they have different flavors for their CBD.

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For anyone that's had it that's just the CBD oil, it does not taste good.

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So they found a way of making it more palatable.

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They have a sleep remedy that has terpenes in, again, completely safe.

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That one's called out of service.

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And then topical CBD, obviously for aches and pains on the outside.

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Now on top of all that, Rescue 1 is offering you, the listener of the Behind the Shield

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by going to rescue1cbd.com.

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And you can listen to my conversation with John on episode 1011 of the Behind the Shield

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podcast.

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impress me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library.

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So you, the personal trainer, does not have to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career.

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Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.

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Now if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr.com.

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And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.

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T E A M B U I L D R.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show firefighters, Jeff Lassers and Mike Mattern and licensed social worker, Manisha

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Leary.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from their respective journeys into

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their fields, the rebirth that Detroit is seeing, the mental health crisis in Michigan,

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Frontline Strong Together, the program between the state of Michigan and Wayne State University

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to provide mental health resources to their first responders and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Jeff Lassers, Mike Mattern and Manisha Leary.

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Enjoy.

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Well Mike, Jeff and Manisha, I want to welcome you all onto the Behind the Shield podcast

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today.

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Thanks for having us.

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Thanks for having us.

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That's kind of a big deal for us.

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Thanks for having us.

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Well, likewise, I was on your Minds of the Frontline podcast not too long ago, so I want

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to thank you for that.

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Very first question, let's start with Mike and Jeff because I know you're in two different

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locations.

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So Mike and Jeff, where are we finding you this afternoon?

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We are in downtown Detroit.

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We're actually at the Wayne State University in the heart of downtown Detroit in our podcast

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studio.

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If you look out the window, you can see Ford Field, the Rensen, the River, Comerica Park.

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You can literally, we have the view of Detroit.

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It's pretty iconic.

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Beautiful.

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And Manisha, what about you?

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I'm still in Michigan.

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I'm not, and my view is not as scenic as the guys, but I'm a few miles away, still in Michigan

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enjoying our cold and snowy day today.

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So I'm excited to be here.

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Nothing's on fire, but it's pretty cold out there.

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Yeah.

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I won't show you outside my window.

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It'll break your heart.

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All right.

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Well, let's start at the very beginning.

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There's three of you, so I want to kind of just get the timelines of each of you into

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your chosen professions, and then there'll definitely be an intersection of how you all

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met.

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So Jeff, let's start with you.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings.

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You got it.

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I was born in Dearborn, Michigan, actually, which is right next to Detroit.

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My parents, my mom was a Michigander.

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My dad lived in about 10 different states, maybe even more than that, before he was even

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18.

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He's originally from Illinois, Chicago area, where most of his family's from, and he moved

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to the Detroit area in the late 70s, early 80s, back when there was a whole lot of jobs

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to be had in the Detroit area for the computer and engineering type human beings.

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My mother worked for General Motors.

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It's about as Detroit as it could possibly get.

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One of my parents worked for GM and the big three, and the other one worked for a subsidiary

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of the big three.

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And so I wasn't around any first responders.

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Nobody was really military in my family other than a grandfather who served in World War

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II.

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And so service or public service wasn't really a thing other than becoming a lawyer or even

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a judge in my family.

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So I had this weird thing that I always felt different than other of my family members.

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My one brother is an engineer.

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My dad had his master's in business, uncles with PhDs.

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I just wasn't me.

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I wasn't really a school kid.

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And everybody kind of knew it, even though they really wanted me to be.

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So after an attempt at a university at Western Michigan University, I finally pulled the

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trigger and said, I can't do this.

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I've always been thinking about being a firefighter.

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Always wanted to be a firefighter since I was six years old.

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And I always kind of felt like a pipe dream just based on how my cultural upbringing was.

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The expectation was degrees, wear a suit, those type of white collar dreams that your

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mom has for you, doing real well, right?

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Well, it didn't fit the mold.

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And then when I entered that world and finally dove in, I became a straight A student.

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I was early to everything.

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My life came together weird and the real me kind of showed up.

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But one of the big events that solidified it for me is when I was a little kid, my dad,

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when I grew up with my father and he passed away when he was 57 years old.

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And that was about 12 years ago.

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He was very brittle diabetic, but he was the most compliant diabetic you've ever met.

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He swam a mile every day.

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His diet was perfect.

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He checked his blood sugar a million times.

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He was dialed in.

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Even then, that disease is very, very hard.

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He had it since he was about 17 years old.

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But there was a couple of times where I'd have to call 911 because I couldn't get him

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out of it.

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I couldn't get him to drink any sugar, get him to eat anything.

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And it got to a point where my skills of talking him down for the hundredth time wasn't working.

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And so 911 would need to show up.

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And that camaraderie, that team that would show up, take care of business, be my friend

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for that short amount of time and leave with everything good left a massive impression

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on me.

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And I'll never forget those guys.

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And that's where we are today.

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So just to clarify, that was a type one diabetic?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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He got late onset juvenile diabetes.

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So he was 17 years old.

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He was a little bit overweight, but it wasn't linked to that.

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His mother was also a type one diabetic.

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And then he caught the genetic bullet as well.

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Luckily, my brother and I have avoided it.

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Yeah.

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That's so sad.

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I mean, if you think about what you just said and how we hear most type one diabetics and

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the diligence that they take, it's almost haunting because type two obviously is nearly

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always diet related.

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And it's kind of the polar opposite.

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It's a disregard of all that diligence to the type one diabetic shows.

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Yeah.

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I get a little stuck in my craw a little bit when I see people abusing their bodies like

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this.

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Like, man, do you know how many people wish they had all their parts working and you're

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just doing this?

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Yeah.

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So.

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Yeah.

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But it is.

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So it's sad.

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I don't know if it was real, if it was Photoshopped, but I remember seeing, I think I forget which

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fast food company it was, Subway or something like that.

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And their soda, if you bought the soda, then they made a contribution to the American Diabetes

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Association.

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I think if that was true, then that that explains, you know, that's the perfect analogy for what's

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broken in this country.

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We'll stay in on Detroit for a moment.

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I think especially with the opioid crisis and seeing the predatory actions of those

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companies praying like Purdue praying on areas where there was thriving industry and then

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there was a void.

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And then we see obviously the mental health kind of domino effect after that.

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What have you heard as far as your parents' story of thriving Detroit and then the lack

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of industry and the impact on their community?

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I think guys like Mike and I, we grew up right next to Detroit.

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Him closer to me.

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He grew up in Dearborn, which is right next to it.

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I grew up in Lavonia, which is a stone's throw away from Dearborn, just on their side, basically.

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And growing up in the 90s, first of all, we had the Detroit Redwings.

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Right.

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So I was downtown all the time going to hockey games, Joe Louis Arena, Tiger Stadium.

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My neighbor was the groundskeeper for the old Tiger Stadium.

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So I was always downtown.

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It was awesome.

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So downtown to me was always this cool place that used to be one of the biggest metropolises

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in the world.

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In the history of the world, Detroit was at one time one of the biggest metropolises.

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And then to see the shell of it in those late 80s, 90s was a ghost town.

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And you heard all the stories and it's dangerous and it's this and that.

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This is a very big city.

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So not every area is the same.

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And so when my dad came to Detroit, he would literally, we drive downtown, he's like, see

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this place right here.

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It was all open, thriving stores and office buildings and this and that.

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And it's parking as far as you can see.

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There's nobody there.

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Yeah.

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And so you got this crazy shell with this amazing architecture, this lost Gothic mid-century

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architecture, this beautiful town, beautiful churches, churches, the ballroom type houses

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and this forgotten history.

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And then what happened for a while.

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But the good news is Detroit's been on the upswing for the last 10 years.

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And just walking around this area is so beautiful.

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The restaurants, I will put up downtown Detroit restaurants up against top 25 in the US.

241
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,720
We got awesome stuff to do.

242
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:41,840
It's beautiful.

243
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,320
So we hope to get it back to where it was.

244
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,080
It was like the third wealthiest city in the world at one time.

245
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,320
I don't think we're going to get quite there, but it would be nice to have this vibrant

246
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,400
place and community that takes advantage of its natural landscapes and the things we already

247
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,400
built here.

248
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,280
And there's a lot of people reinvesting in the city.

249
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:06,520
That's the nice part is it's really coming back like you talked about, but there's people

250
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,040
willing to reinvest in the city.

251
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,040
And that's really where we're seeing that comeback of the city.

252
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,040
Yes.

253
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,400
Well, Manisha, just your perspective, what have you heard?

254
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,400
Obviously, you're treating a lot of people with origin stories and you've got your own

255
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,920
observation as well living closer to Detroit.

256
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,520
What have you heard and or observation or from your family as far as that thriving element,

257
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,920
the kind of decline and then hopefully again, this kind of upward swing that you're seeing

258
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,920
too?

259
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:45,400
Yeah, so I think for the city of Detroit in the time that we kind of like lost its luster

260
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:55,240
and even the surrounding areas around the city, drawing the drugs, the opioid, cocaine,

261
00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:02,240
heroin, meth, like all of the things that have plagued our city.

262
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,360
I think the state as a whole kind of suffered when the big city suffered.

263
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:15,680
So and I think when it comes around to not necessarily putting the two together, a lot

264
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,600
of people like to separate what's happening with the economy or what's happening with

265
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,280
our society and kind of distant, like separate the people from that.

266
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,280
You can't do that.

267
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,280
You can't do it.

268
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,280
It's hard to do that.

269
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,360
So I know a lot of people, what they see on the news and what they hear on the news in

270
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,560
these different places, there's people living these lives.

271
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:40,240
There's people struggling through these economies and being, you know, losing houses, losing

272
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,480
jobs when the economy was bad, when the depression was bad.

273
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:50,320
All of this left people with fight or flight, living in fight or flight mode and feeling

274
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,920
like they had to survive a place that they once thrived in.

275
00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:02,100
And I think overall that just talks to how mental health has always kind of been a thing.

276
00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,720
And I think back then people really didn't want to talk about it because it was a sign

277
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:05,720
of weakness.

278
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:12,240
And what we're seeing now coming with the city thriving over the last, again, 10 years

279
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,120
or so and people learning more about how to reach out and who to reach out to, I think

280
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:24,440
we're in a space of people being a little bit more open to talking about things and

281
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:32,920
to addressing things and being more communicative about things that they're struggling with,

282
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,560
which we didn't see that a long time ago.

283
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:43,560
So I guess the moral of it is that, you know, the people are a reflection of the city.

284
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:49,720
And so I think that when you see your people starting to do good and to being out and riding

285
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,640
their bikes and being by the riverfront and enjoying the restaurants and doing all these

286
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,240
things that revitalizes the city.

287
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,520
You see people, I think, owning Detroit again.

288
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:03,520
Absolutely.

289
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,040
In a way that we have never seen before.

290
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,120
It used to be like very segregated racially, like a lot.

291
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:13,640
And I grew up in an area where there wasn't people being as kind about the racial segregation

292
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,800
that existed in a not so spoken objective way.

293
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,600
But now it's like everybody just owns Detroit.

294
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,000
Like you literally go down and the Internet.

295
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,440
It's so nice now compared to what we saw in the past, especially through like the 08

296
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:29,440
and the big recession.

297
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,440
Oh, yeah.

298
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,920
Oh, it was bad for a while.

299
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,240
It's interesting.

300
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,320
I had author Sam Quinones on the show for the second time and he wrote Dreamland and

301
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,640
that followed the city of Portsmouth, Ohio.

302
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,200
And what initially was Oxycontin, then into the black tie heroin from Mexico and Dreamland

303
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,400
was this community pool, outdoor pool that they had.

304
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,400
And as the city of Portsmouth declined, it was closed down.

305
00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,160
But the whole point was when, as you said, when the city was thriving, communities were

306
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,840
coming together again of all colors and creeds, swimming and lying out in the grass.

307
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,840
But what was interesting in the second interview, which is a few years later, Sam said that

308
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,360
Portsmouth has now become a hub for recovery.

309
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:18,160
So now you've got all these these gentrification is the wrong word, but kind of reinvesting

310
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,880
in the area and stores and restaurants and barbershops are opening up again and people

311
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,960
are coming to Portsmouth from other parts of Ohio to get clean.

312
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,720
So I really believe in I think hope is just the word that we need in society.

313
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:34,720
Full stop.

314
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:40,560
But I really feel like we were in a low and I think the fire service we are in a low right

315
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,960
now, and it's funny what Manisha said.

316
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,480
Your people are a reflection of how well your city is doing.

317
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,680
I would argue your people are a reflection of how well your fire department or your leadership

318
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:49,680
is doing.

319
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,020
If they're dying and leaving, maybe it's not doing so well.

320
00:18:53,020 --> 00:18:57,340
But I think that's also a beautiful opportunity to finally let that pendulum swing back the

321
00:18:57,340 --> 00:18:59,880
other way and start healing.

322
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:00,880
Absolutely.

323
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:01,880
Absolutely.

324
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:02,880
All right.

325
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,980
Well, Jeff, to you, same question.

326
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:06,980
Where were you born?

327
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:07,980
What did your parents do?

328
00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:08,980
How many siblings?

329
00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:09,980
I think you mean Mike.

330
00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:10,980
I'm sorry, Mike.

331
00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:11,980
No, it's all good.

332
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:12,980
It's all good.

333
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:17,160
I was born in Dearborn, Michigan.

334
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:22,800
My parents, my mom was a school secretary, actually a school secretary, actually a couple

335
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,160
of schools that I went to.

336
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,520
So I had to keep my nose clean.

337
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,920
My dad worked at Grainger for 30 years.

338
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,600
And then I got an older sister who is a nurse out at U of M Mott Children's Hospital in

339
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,040
the NICU.

340
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,100
I was born, I literally was born knowing I wanted to be a firefighter.

341
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:49,240
There was nothing else in this world that I ever had any idea what I wanted to do.

342
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,960
It was just be a firefighter.

343
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:59,640
And even when I got old enough and I learned my uncle was a firefighter, that was like

344
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,440
having him in the family was awesome because I could, you know, every year for my birthday,

345
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,240
I would go to the firehouse.

346
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,480
That was like my trip for the birthday.

347
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:08,920
Those types of things.

348
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,960
And it's kind of cool now because the firehouses that I used to go to as a kid are the ones

349
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,560
that I work in now.

350
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,240
So I grew up in this department.

351
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,520
I grew up in the city.

352
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,120
And it was one of those things knowing what I wanted to do early on in my life, it made

353
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:27,200
the trajectory that much easier.

354
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,200
So like my senior year of high school, I took college classes so that I could jump right

355
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,640
into EMT the day I graduated.

356
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,480
So I got my EMT license when I was 18.

357
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:47,200
I got my medic when I was 19 and went through fire academy, was out ready to go at age 20.

358
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:53,000
Ended up getting hired a couple, month or two after I turned 21 and just been in the

359
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,400
fire service since.

360
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,760
How can I get about the same time I started for you like what?

361
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,520
Oh, six or six.

362
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,080
I started for as well.

363
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,360
So how competitive was recruitment back then for you two?

364
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,000
Oh my gosh.

365
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:13,360
I mean, it was where I got hired, I remember there was over 200 people who applied for

366
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:14,360
six positions.

367
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:15,360
Yeah.

368
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,880
And it was pretty good shot.

369
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,200
200 is pretty good for six back then.

370
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,360
Back then we were seeing a thousand for none because they just need to make a list.

371
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,800
And the funny part was, I mean, you were applying at every city that you could apply to and

372
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,160
we were running in, you're running into people.

373
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,160
You're making friends with the same guys.

374
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,120
And all the interviews, how did that interview go in this city?

375
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,920
Because we're all fighting for the same crumbs.

376
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,480
And the process was insane.

377
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,160
If you didn't have a high test score, I mean, they weren't even looking at you.

378
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,200
If you didn't have a 98.

379
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,200
Yeah.

380
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,220
And so the recruitment, I mean, there wasn't a recruitment.

381
00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:52,880
They didn't go looking for you.

382
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,320
The recruitment was the availability of the job.

383
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:56,320
Yes.

384
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,560
The retention was the pay.

385
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:04,800
If you look at what we were making in 04 compared to now, and you compare that to the economics,

386
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,720
I don't think I've gotten a raise at all.

387
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,640
From 04 to 08, we know what happened.

388
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:12,960
And then they tried to come back.

389
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,440
And I don't know if you Michigan politics and economics during that time, we had a governor

390
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:22,600
named Schneider that tore us apart and led to a lot of financial crisis here.

391
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:23,960
A lot of benefits being.

392
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:24,960
Yeah.

393
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:30,240
Not to mention Flint and everything else where, yeah, it's a much different thing now.

394
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,120
So weird how the competitive nature for getting the job went down where we're hiring people

395
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,640
without even fire one and two anymore.

396
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:38,640
That's amazing.

397
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,040
We're paying somebody to go to the fire academy.

398
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,040
Good for them.

399
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,280
I'm not trying to talk bad about it.

400
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,920
It's great for the new employee, but it's weird.

401
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:46,920
It's so weird.

402
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,520
It's odd because it was tooth and nail.

403
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,320
You were fighting people for jobs.

404
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,320
Yeah.

405
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:53,320
Studying.

406
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,560
The amount of studying I was doing.

407
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,920
And then you had to worry about the psychology test.

408
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,520
You're doing 1200 questions on do you see spirits and doorknobs or do you ever feel

409
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,320
like there's a tight band around your head?

410
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,280
Have you ever slept in a bed with your mother?

411
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,280
Who's a better question?

412
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:09,280
Who's a better president?

413
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,000
You know, Washington and why?

414
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,200
And I'm like, what are you doing to me?

415
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,440
Yeah, that was insane.

416
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,840
Well, Manisha, I think if I'm not mistaken, the one that we took, I took, I mean, higher

417
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,720
layer, we literally took at least 1500 questions.

418
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:22,720
And it was exactly that.

419
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:23,720
Do you like puppies?

420
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:24,720
Do you like flowers?

421
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,920
Do you like the ocean?

422
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,240
Do you like touching kids?

423
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,240
Do you like cooking?

424
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,240
What was that last one?

425
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,040
You know, and you're like after an hour, you're cross-eyed.

426
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,040
But I think that was the MMPI, multifaceted Minnesota.

427
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,800
Yes, that's the one.

428
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:38,800
Inventory.

429
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,160
So let's put that to Manisha for a second, because I'm curious.

430
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:46,120
So far, I don't want to skew your answer, but so far, the psychiatrists, psychologists,

431
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:50,540
counselors that have been on the show have all said that that test was never designed

432
00:23:50,540 --> 00:23:55,660
to be a standalone test to decide if someone should be a first responder or not.

433
00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:56,660
What is your perspective?

434
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:57,660
It's not.

435
00:23:57,660 --> 00:24:01,360
It wasn't designed to be the standalone test.

436
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:06,880
And it's really designed to give you a here and now of kind of like emotional space.

437
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,400
But really, it's designed to be with other tests in another space.

438
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:19,120
And so I mean, I don't know, to be honest, what was the reason that the states chose

439
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:24,040
to use that as the psychological test or the, you know, mental health test.

440
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:29,640
I'm not sure what the, you know, the reason was behind that.

441
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:38,320
But what I will say is that the people who are seeing the scores probably wasn't the

442
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,120
ones who should have been getting the scores.

443
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:45,960
So I wonder how many people really passed it or really didn't pass it because I can't

444
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,040
imagine someone without having that the proper background kind of scoring it and being like,

445
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,840
yeah, this person is good versus this person isn't.

446
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,600
So that's just what I think.

447
00:24:54,600 --> 00:25:00,760
I think the process really should be, you know, meeting with someone face to face, kind

448
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:06,960
of having this kind of conversation, doing what I call a biopsychosocial, which is getting

449
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,680
a full history of, you know, childhood, where you are now, how you handle things now, why

450
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,480
you're in this field.

451
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:19,720
I think having something like that would do a little bit better job at vetting versus,

452
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,920
you know, someone having taken this test that isn't going to tell someone who doesn't know

453
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,920
how to score it much.

454
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,920
Absolutely.

455
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,920
Yeah, it's funny because I did the polygraph three of the four and had to line my way through

456
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,580
with those because that's just smoke and mirrors and magic show.

457
00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:39,820
It's not anything that's actually, you know, true science.

458
00:25:39,820 --> 00:25:45,600
And then the is funny when I wrote my second book and just came out last year and there's

459
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:53,000
one chapter and it's totally based on my experience in Orange County with that face to face counselor.

460
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,320
Literally it was like a pack rat's office.

461
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,880
She had to move papers off the couch for me to even sit down and I'm just sitting there

462
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:05,480
going and I'm being psychologically evaluated, you know, so this is the problem is, you know,

463
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,040
lowest bid and all that, even the face to face, who is that person that's actually vetting

464
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,260
that young candidate?

465
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:17,360
Do they have the ability to actually determine if they would be a good cop firefighter, paramedic,

466
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:22,040
or are they battling their own demons and maybe should go see some counseling first?

467
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,040
Yeah.

468
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:29,120
Or even if they have experience with working with these people or have experiencing understanding

469
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,800
what it means to be a firefighter, police officer, EMS, you know, like any of these

470
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,240
different disciplines, I think that's important as well.

471
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:42,760
You don't want to have someone who spent their life being a therapist for divorced couples,

472
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:43,760
right?

473
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Marriage counseling is great.

474
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,760
That's perfect.

475
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,240
There's a lane for that, but I wouldn't necessarily pull that person in to work with my police

476
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,000
officer or firefighter because that person doesn't have the experience needed to work

477
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,840
with that type of client as well.

478
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:02,480
So I think a lot goes into that and I mean, we know, you know, cities and departments

479
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,880
have to do what they can do with the money that they're given, but I think if you want

480
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:14,440
to have healthier members who are making it to their 25 and out, 30 and out, and then

481
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,320
thriving in retirement as well, you have to do your due diligence when you're bringing

482
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:24,840
in people to be a part of like these systems for hiring, these systems for your EAPs and

483
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,840
things like that.

484
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:26,840
It's super important.

485
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:27,840
Absolutely.

486
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,080
Well, going back to Mike and Jeff, when we're talking about recruitment and the comparison,

487
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,080
because this whole thing is just to show, you know, show the lens of where we were,

488
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,120
where we are now, what went wrong, what can we change?

489
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:47,160
But I haven't had a person yet that said anything other than our recruitment is, is, you know,

490
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,120
pales in comparison to how it used to be.

491
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:55,440
When you look at not only your recruitment, but retention in your departments, what has

492
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,440
changed versus 20 years ago when arguably I would imagine most people will go in full

493
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,640
career and then taking their pension?

494
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,840
Well, you can start.

495
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:11,120
Yeah, I think the number one thing is when I got hired, my assistant chief, I remembered

496
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:12,120
his name was Ray Riggs.

497
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:15,960
He shook my hand and said, welcome to do the best job in the world.

498
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,400
And he meant it in the fact of you had this good paying job that was reliable that you

499
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,080
were going to have fun with.

500
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,280
You were literally going to have fun with.

501
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,280
Yes.

502
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,280
Is there a dangerous aspect?

503
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,280
Absolutely.

504
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,640
But you're going to have a good time, right?

505
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,640
That was the whole it's going to be fun.

506
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,560
You got with your buddies, you get to help people you do.

507
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,240
And then, you know, fast forward, you know, that's 2004.

508
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,440
And then probably within 10 years, you're starting to see cracks.

509
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,280
And I don't know if that's my the seven to 10 year itch you see on some guys when they

510
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,200
feel ignored in the department and they're not being utilized enough for something this

511
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:51,280
or that.

512
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,760
But then after a while, when we eventually got a two tier system because the economics

513
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,840
of our department completely changed, all of a sudden we have two different contracts

514
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,640
and another one doesn't look as appealing to do your whole 25 to 30.

515
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,640
So two being just fire or just EMS?

516
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,040
No, two tier being one contract.

517
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,760
If you got hired before this day in a whole different contract, if you got hired after

518
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:16,760
this day.

519
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:17,760
Gotcha.

520
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,160
So we're talking a difference in health care, a difference in retirement, you know, all

521
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,440
the different things.

522
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,000
Mostly a decrease.

523
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,000
None of it's an increase.

524
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,000
None of it's better.

525
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,600
The new tier was always a decrease of that because of the legacy costs, yada, yada, yada,

526
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,800
which really speaks to the inability to manage finances at a municipal level on many different

527
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:35,800
fronts.

528
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:36,800
That's a whole different conversation.

529
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,000
So the bottom tier, though, they run less calls and get more time.

530
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,000
Oh, they don't.

531
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,480
They do the same exact job for worse money.

532
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,080
Same exact job.

533
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,400
Sometimes doing more in a sense and then sometimes doing less depending on the scope of their

534
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:51,400
abilities.

535
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,200
Yeah, I think another part of it is and this is not just here, I think it's fire service

536
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,400
in general.

537
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,720
A lot of places it's turned into a business.

538
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,800
It's not, you know, we start looking at the chiefs have become managers of a business.

539
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:06,800
Yeah.

540
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,280
Whereas before it was the it was kind of the old, you know, this was a career.

541
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,520
This was a certain type of career that you did.

542
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,680
And you know, it's I think some of it has turned more towards that.

543
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,160
And the focus is more on, you know, budget lines and how much does this cost and, you

544
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,440
know, that versus this.

545
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,800
Whereas before, you know, you needed something.

546
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,360
Boom, you got it.

547
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,080
Yeah, there wasn't the budget constraints and those types of things.

548
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,800
You didn't necessarily you didn't feel like a number.

549
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,120
And, you know, you actually felt like a member of the department.

550
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,600
Whereas over the years, because of budgets and, you know, taking benefits and all this

551
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,640
other stuff, you really kind of started a lot of people started feeling a lot less.

552
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,600
Like I'm just a number on a budget.

553
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,000
The do more with less became like our mantra.

554
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,040
It's just like how much more we do more with less while you're giving me death by a thousand

555
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,880
cuts at the same time.

556
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:01,880
See what's so interesting.

557
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,480
And I had Tulsi Gabbard on the show and we talked about this.

558
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,760
I am not an intelligent man.

559
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600
I never rose above the rank of firefighter.

560
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:18,340
And yet it seems so painfully obvious to me that there is a false economy in so many things

561
00:31:18,340 --> 00:31:19,800
that we see, especially in the fire.

562
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,540
So even nationally, we could have a national health care system if we focused on getting

563
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:27,280
Americans healthy, then it wouldn't cost us a lot.

564
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,200
But if, as we touched on the beginning of the interview, you know, obesity is normalized

565
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
and so is type two diabetes and all the other things.

566
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,760
And our kids are being served crap in schools and P.E. is being cut.

567
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,280
And you know, urban kids don't even have anywhere to exercise because if there is a place, it's

568
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:47,440
probably ridden with gangs and, you know, all these things that are fixable and reversible.

569
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,480
Then, you know, that, of course, you know, health care is going to become hard to to

570
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,840
fund in the fire service.

571
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,680
What I see is when when people and I love it when they say we're a business because

572
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040
we're not we're a service, you know, and the job hasn't changed.

573
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,480
That was my sarcastic comment with the two tier.

574
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,880
The job is the job.

575
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,720
Your call comes in, you get on the rig, you respond fire extrication, rope rescue, you

576
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,140
know, EMS, whatever it is, jack of all trades, master of none.

577
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:15,700
And that is what we all signed up for.

578
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:17,600
That's what we train for in the academy.

579
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,240
The working environment under which we work is a completely different conversation.

580
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,240
And you know, as one of my friends actually in your area pointed out, you know, when you've

581
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,840
got one department that works 56 hours a week, another one that works 42, like a lot of the

582
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:37,980
northeast, you're basically telling them you're worth one third less than Boston.

583
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,320
Same job, you know, same calls.

584
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,340
But you you don't deserve to have what they have.

585
00:32:43,340 --> 00:32:46,900
And so when you look at even the corporate space is what makes me laugh when people say

586
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:47,900
we're a business.

587
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:51,980
Well, if you look at the progressive business leaders, they invest in their people.

588
00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:55,600
Look at the Googles and virgins and all these high level businesses.

589
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,700
A lot of the corporations now are going to four day work weeks, four, nine hour day work

590
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:05,980
weeks, finding the same productivity, more innovation, efficiency and a happier workforce.

591
00:33:05,980 --> 00:33:10,760
So if we truly are a business, as I always say snarkily, then why are we modeling an

592
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,980
Indonesian sweatshop instead of a progressive business?

593
00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:18,380
If you're a real business leader, you would be looking at investing in your people.

594
00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:24,880
And the result of poor investment costs 10 times more in workman's comp claims, lawsuits

595
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,340
from accidents over time.

596
00:33:27,340 --> 00:33:30,980
You know, the line of duty death payments, medical retirements, I could go on and on

597
00:33:30,980 --> 00:33:31,980
and on.

598
00:33:31,980 --> 00:33:33,280
So the money is there.

599
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,000
This is what drives me crazy.

600
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,780
It's just the leadership isn't.

601
00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:38,700
Yeah, we had it.

602
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:43,860
And you know, to Jess point, we were talking about, you know, we're doing more with less.

603
00:33:43,860 --> 00:33:46,100
People are getting burnt out in the career.

604
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:48,980
You know, I mean, there's you just get burnt out.

605
00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:52,100
It takes years off your career when you're running short.

606
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:56,860
The calls aren't going to stop coming in, but you're doing more with less.

607
00:33:56,860 --> 00:34:00,360
And people are starting to look at the career like, why am I doing this?

608
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,300
So when we started and you said, Hey, do you love your job?

609
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:04,300
You tear up.

610
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:05,820
Yeah, dude, good luck getting a job.

611
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:11,340
Now I've literally seen professional firefighters talk kids out of becoming firefighters.

612
00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:12,340
Talk them out of it.

613
00:34:12,340 --> 00:34:13,740
Like you're not gonna like it.

614
00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:15,580
This is that the other thing they're going to do this.

615
00:34:15,580 --> 00:34:16,760
They're going to do that.

616
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:17,760
Go be a welder.

617
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:18,760
Go be an electrician.

618
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:19,760
Go do this.

619
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:20,760
You own your own life.

620
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,740
They're literally telling them to go away.

621
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:27,160
I just shared an article on the New York Times, New York Times article, excuse me.

622
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,120
And it was saying that Gen Z are actually turning to trades because you got to remember,

623
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,640
this is a generation raised on information.

624
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,940
This is why we have a recruitment crisis.

625
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:40,080
When the three of us were going, I want to be a firefighter.

626
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,760
We're just thinking about cats and trees, so he faces and the front page holding a baby.

627
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,400
Now fast forward 20 years.

628
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,200
Now these young people who are much more in tune and kudos to our generation for finally

629
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,000
dragging this mental health conversation out into the open.

630
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,580
So our children are being raised with CrossFit and Spartan races.

631
00:34:58,580 --> 00:35:02,300
So the physicality, the fit ones are extremely fit.

632
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:03,900
There's mental health conversations.

633
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,680
The leaning back into the value of relationships and family.

634
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,520
And so then that same lens goes and looks at Detroit, Orange County, whoever it is,

635
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:18,260
and they're like, oh, 56 hours a week, mandatory overtime makes it 80 hours a week.

636
00:35:18,260 --> 00:35:19,260
Salary is only this.

637
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:21,200
The pension used to be good, but the governor cut it.

638
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,880
So now it's only here.

639
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,000
And then they look at welding or working for Amazon or whatever.

640
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,760
And they're like, I want to serve, but that just sounds awful.

641
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,360
So I'm going to go do this.

642
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,200
So what's crazy is we have a young group of people that would be phenomenal firefighters,

643
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,360
dispatchers, whatever the gig.

644
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,680
We need to now fix what's broken in the working environment so that we can once again have

645
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,140
hundreds, if not thousands of people lining up.

646
00:35:47,140 --> 00:35:51,780
Because as all my special forces guests say, when they're overseas, we're the ones protecting

647
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:55,100
their family and they hold us to that same level.

648
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:59,460
A lot of people try and be Navy SEALs and SAS and Delta.

649
00:35:59,460 --> 00:36:02,520
And that's because they want to find the best of the best.

650
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,160
If we're taking anyone 18 and a heartbeat, imagine the catastrophic events that would

651
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,360
happen with that lower bar.

652
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,640
God forbid you have a 10 story high rise fire or a school shooting.

653
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:19,380
And as we saw, sadly, in a valley, your child dies because you allowed some politician or

654
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:22,080
cowardly leader break down your department.

655
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:28,340
So as I said, being optimistic as I am, this crisis is the perfect opportunity to finally

656
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:32,720
turn it around, because if we don't change it, you know, Detroit might not have a fire

657
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:33,720
department.

658
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,580
Orlando might not have a fire department.

659
00:36:35,580 --> 00:36:41,680
So we can turn tragedy into triumph, follow the city of Detroit with the fire departments.

660
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:47,120
And then you guys are thriving and able to deliver a level of service that matches the

661
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,520
pendulum swing in the city itself.

662
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,520
Yeah.

663
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,880
And Detroit's its own thing compared to, you know, Mike and I are working in the suburbs

664
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,880
of Detroit, right?

665
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,480
You know, the city is one thing, the suburbs are a whole other.

666
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:06,320
And then getting a lot of these municipalities to work and sync together to help each other

667
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,280
out as well as a part of it.

668
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,280
Absolutely.

669
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,280
Manisha, you want to jump in with anything?

670
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,480
I've just been yapping for a moment.

671
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,680
No, you guys are right on the mark.

672
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:25,640
I just think that there's a lot of things that we can't control, which makes it harder

673
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:31,320
for all of us working in a field of service and a field of wanting to be there for the

674
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,200
people that we serve.

675
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,760
And so I think understanding that there's things that we can't control, there's people

676
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,720
that we can't control and entities that we can't.

677
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,040
I think that's where our compassion is and where it's important to have a great, a good

678
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,160
leader, a strong leader, someone who has great listening skills and communication skills

679
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:55,600
and who's able to have 360 perspective on what could be happening with their members

680
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,960
or what's happening in the community.

681
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:05,480
Because unfortunately, it's not going to be our politicians and our governments that saves

682
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,040
cities and states and neighborhoods.

683
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,520
It's going to be its people.

684
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:18,800
So I think the more that we do the training and we give compassion and grace to people

685
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:24,520
who actually do want to serve versus it being a business, we'll be good.

686
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:25,520
We'll be good.

687
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,960
It's definitely a fight that I'm willing to do that.

688
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:31,960
Me too.

689
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,280
I always tell people, you know, we used to send kids up chimneys and work in factories

690
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,840
in Victorian times until people said enough is enough.

691
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,960
You know, women couldn't vote until the suffragettes bound together, you know, the million man

692
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:44,960
march.

693
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,800
These events where people got angry enough, it doesn't mean you have to use violence,

694
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,120
but they got angry enough to want to step up.

695
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,560
All of a sudden, that one leader, that politician, that president, that union president, that

696
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,000
you know, fire chief, whoever it is, whatever that obstruction is, if there's enough of

697
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,680
us, you just run right over them.

698
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,880
So you know, to me, I always tell people I want to get them educated and angry.

699
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,480
Once you understand that there is a solution, even financially, and you can illustrate,

700
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,160
you know, like the question always asked, why do you not deserve to go home to your

701
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,080
family after 42 hours?

702
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,360
You know, and you literally save lives.

703
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,840
You come from a dead sleep to getting on a rig to doing a primary search, to then working

704
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,800
a cardiac algorithm.

705
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,840
And my barista stops at 40 hours, you know, and I love my coffee.

706
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,440
But you know, there is such an inequity there that we have to fix.

707
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,680
And until our own people understand that it's not macho to work yourself into a grave, then

708
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,600
hopefully we can bind together as a truly united fire service and start demanding a

709
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,120
work week because isn't that what a union is supposed to do fundamentally?

710
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,840
The very first thing is work week, working conditions.

711
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,080
So yeah, that's what I'd love to see.

712
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,560
So all right.

713
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,720
Well, Manisha, with you, we haven't got your background yet.

714
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:05,560
So tell me where you were born, family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?

715
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Gotcha.

716
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Okay.

717
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:14,960
So I was born in the absolute best city in the state of Michigan, which is Ann Arbor.

718
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:21,200
And those who know anything about Ann Arbor, that is where the University of Michigan is.

719
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,520
And so yes, we are the state champs for 2023.

720
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,640
So everything is football in this area.

721
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,800
And yes, we are the Red Red Lions are doing well.

722
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,160
So born in Ann Arbor, my mother is actually from the South.

723
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:41,560
So my mom moved to Michigan when her family did a little bit when she was younger.

724
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,440
I think she was in high school.

725
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,400
My dad is also not from the state of Michigan.

726
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,840
He moved when his family moved for the auto industry.

727
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:54,680
I think he moved a little earlier before high school, so maybe elementary school.

728
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,720
But both of their families moved to Michigan for the opportunities that the auto industry

729
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,160
bought to the state of Michigan.

730
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:08,200
And so my family, they worked with Jim and Ford and Chrysler, and we are an automotive

731
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,200
family.

732
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:20,640
So my family and most of their close friends, we are living on the backs of the blood, sweat,

733
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,400
and tears of folks who've worked their lives in the automotive industry and built up this

734
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,560
amazing area and state to what it is today.

735
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,800
So I'm very proud about that.

736
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:41,000
My mom is nothing short of a Marvel superhero.

737
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,720
Just waiting for them to bring her into one of the movies, but she's amazing.

738
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:56,800
She worked her, I have three siblings, and my mom raised us pretty well and has done

739
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,840
all she could do to take care of us.

740
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:09,000
And my dad has done the same with some of the struggles that he has had, but I think

741
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,240
has done the best with what he can do.

742
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:16,640
And so I think it was pretty early on in my career that I, or in my childhood that I knew

743
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,280
I was going to be of some sort of service.

744
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,840
So it was going to be a couple of different things.

745
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,120
I wanted to be a dancer.

746
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,080
I was like, oh, I'm going to totally dance on one of these music videos.

747
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,720
And then I was like, I'm going to be an astronaut.

748
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:34,680
And then I was like, okay, I can't dance and I'm so afraid of heights, so that's not going

749
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:35,680
to work.

750
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,440
Let me go ahead and do something else.

751
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:46,080
And so I think I led towards social work because I lived a life where social workers were not

752
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,080
effective.

753
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,920
They came in and they made situations worse and they did not do the things that they were

754
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,640
supposed to do for family entities.

755
00:42:53,640 --> 00:43:01,480
And so I looked into social work, but surprisingly enough, I didn't want to do this traditional

756
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,480
social work job.

757
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:09,480
So I realized that I wanted to do some sort of medical type of space.

758
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:17,880
So I found myself working with Wayne State pretty early on and got into trauma work.

759
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,200
So I've been a trauma therapist for, I'm just going to say quite a few years.

760
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:27,480
I'm not even going to put the number on it because it makes me feel old.

761
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,800
And so being a trauma therapist is hard.

762
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:35,720
Deciding to honestly work with people who are some of the toughest to work with, people

763
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:40,680
who have pretty complex medical conditions.

764
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,960
And I will just say that having depression, anxiety, PTSD, trauma from childhood, all

765
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:52,240
of that is a medical condition just as you would with diabetes or anything else.

766
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:58,200
And so I found myself not being able to shy away from people who needed the help the most

767
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:04,640
when a lot of my colleagues were like, yeah, I'm just going to stick to mild to moderate

768
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:12,920
cases or stick with families or stick with childhood and all of that has its lane.

769
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:20,040
But I think that for me, working with the folks who needed it the most was the challenge

770
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,400
and honestly my calling.

771
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:29,600
So I went that way and was blessed to have an amazing, to start to work with Wayne State

772
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:36,520
and Wayne Health and have an amazing team that I work with and a medical director who

773
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,800
doesn't allow me not to be my best at any given time.

774
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:47,560
And so when Frontline Strong together came about, it was an opportunity that a lot of

775
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:54,920
people wanted, but me because I had first responders in my family and I've seen the

776
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,800
side effects.

777
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:07,320
I am a child of military and first responder members in that family and it's not a pretty

778
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:18,680
picture when you see unresolved trauma, unresolved PTSD, people who refuse to get help for addiction

779
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:24,080
and things like that, that plays out and spills onto your family and it bleeds.

780
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,040
And so yeah, I was good.

781
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:34,800
I was good on that until I was convinced by my own family and that this might be a calling.

782
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:42,240
And I haven't looked back since, so I am blessed to do the work that I do with the people that

783
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:43,240
I do it with.

784
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:47,360
And I'm so honored to work with Jeff and Mike and these guys.

785
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:48,360
I don't know.

786
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,360
I'm just happy.

787
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,360
That's a different leap.

788
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,600
You went from doing clinical work to getting into FST-5.

789
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,080
That's a whole different thing.

790
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,080
Yeah.

791
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:08,320
So I went from doing a trauma therapist schedule.

792
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,480
I was working at some other programs and helping start and train other trauma therapists at

793
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,480
one point.

794
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:23,560
But yeah, I went from having 20 patients a day, not really, but having quite a few patients

795
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:30,520
working over the 40 hours a week with trauma patients to having state come and say, hey,

796
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,160
you guys need to develop and start this program and you need to do it from the ground up and

797
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,120
you need to learn all the best practices and do all the things and then also implement

798
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,280
your own expertise.

799
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,480
And yeah, you need to do it.

800
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,680
Make it work for all five of the disciplines at the same time.

801
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,600
Yeah, make it work for all five disciplines and do other things.

802
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,600
So it was not easy.

803
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,800
It has not been easy.

804
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:58,680
Every day is still kind of like we're still working through all of the, you know, the

805
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:07,360
twists and turns, the intricacies that make us who we are with all these five disciplines.

806
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,440
And I'm actually really happy that I said yes and I'm here and we're doing this work.

807
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:17,560
So it's not pretty.

808
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,200
It's not sexy work.

809
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,440
And it's not even rewarding work all the time, to be honest.

810
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:32,040
But it's work that builds up my community, which builds up my city, which builds up my

811
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:37,520
state, which means I'm leaving a legacy and that's all I want to do.

812
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:43,200
Well, I want to go back first when we're speaking of trauma, is it killing you that Ohio State

813
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,560
is going to the championships now?

814
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:46,560
It is.

815
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:47,560
It is.

816
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,200
And we own them four years in a row, baby.

817
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,200
That's all that matters now.

818
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,520
The trauma of it all.

819
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,600
And then even more so trauma where I have these people who are like, oh, but they're

820
00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,600
the Big Ten.

821
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:00,600
And I'm like, don't talk to me.

822
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:01,600
I don't want to hear it.

823
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:02,600
Yeah, don't worry about it.

824
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,600
Michigan's putting more money in their players now.

825
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:06,600
We're good.

826
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Yes.

827
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:13,800
So since I know a lot of people will see this podcast, I am for the Big Ten.

828
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,640
It will be a good national championship game.

829
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,320
My wife's an OSU fan, so I watched the last two.

830
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,840
The only time I ever watched American football.

831
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:31,120
I don't normally follow people throwing eggs around the field, but.

832
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,840
Your wife knows exactly what I was saying when I was born in the US.

833
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,120
She was still guided that they lost to Michigan.

834
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,960
So even though they're in this point now, I think that's cool.

835
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,960
So that's the man right there.

836
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,920
Bottom line is that, you know, rain day, if you don't win this national championship,

837
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,000
the fact that he hasn't beat us, I don't know.

838
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,000
All right.

839
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,600
Well, then before we go back to the lads, just kind of building on your own story, as

840
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:02,560
I progress through this podcast over the years, obviously I am a perpetual student and then

841
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:09,520
these kind of middle of the Venn diagram starts to show very, very powerfully the impact of

842
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,360
our youth on the first responder is rarely discussed.

843
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,640
It is in your profession, but overall in our profession.

844
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:25,640
Talk to me about the magnitude of the impact of, you know, year zero, even in vitro up

845
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,320
to when we get the badge pinned on our chest, because one of the biggest mistakes, I think

846
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,480
that some of the voices out there are saying is, oh, well, you were at the World Trade

847
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,680
Center or you were the Boston Marathon bombing.

848
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,120
That's why you're struggling.

849
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,560
And yet you hear the stories of so many first responders and military members and you're

850
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,640
like, oh, yeah, there's so much there.

851
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,400
And if that wasn't addressed before you entered the job, doesn't mean you shouldn't be.

852
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,560
But you know, I think we're left unaddressed is a dangerous thing.

853
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:57,000
So talk to me about the prevalence of childhood trauma in the people that you counsel now.

854
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Absolutely.

855
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:04,400
I would say 90% of the first responders that come into this work have some sort of childhood

856
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,320
trauma, and that does not make them actually a bad first responder.

857
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,600
And I know that there's this negative connotation that comes with that and then also stigma

858
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:14,600
that comes with that.

859
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:22,080
The reality is, is that the difference between the first responders who have childhood trauma

860
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,200
and do well is that they have acknowledged it and they're getting work for it.

861
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,640
And the person who hasn't acknowledged it is someone who could be struggling.

862
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:39,800
And so I think it's important to understand that sometimes this work, the push to get

863
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,080
into the first responder field as a firefighter, as a police officer, is because people are

864
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,560
looking for an outlet.

865
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:46,960
They're running from something.

866
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,160
They're trying to get away from something sometimes.

867
00:50:50,160 --> 00:51:01,360
And being a hero or being someone who loves adrenaline, who wants to show people and maybe

868
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:06,720
even others in the families that they're worthy, they can get into these types of fields and

869
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,640
not understanding not only what the field is going to bring, but also not understanding

870
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,680
that you don't necessarily, because healing is an ongoing process.

871
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,840
So you don't have to be healed to get into any space.

872
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,360
But if you don't even address some of the things that have happened in your childhood,

873
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,360
just as a therapist, you're going to find yourself struggling and not being able to.

874
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:32,120
So like the person that you mentioned before who had clutter everywhere, she was struggling.

875
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:36,880
That person may have just been kind of like head above the water trying to figure out

876
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,200
their space and what they're doing.

877
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:47,640
And we see this in both spaces of where it's just not becoming okay to talk about these

878
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:48,640
things.

879
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,720
Most departments, most first responder worlds were like, you don't talk about what's wrong

880
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:52,720
with you.

881
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:54,080
You deal with that later.

882
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,200
Even in the military, you should be able to handle these things.

883
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,280
You should be able to do the thing, only the strongest survive.

884
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,840
And then they kick you out of these systems.

885
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,800
So like, so you're no longer a firefighter, you're no longer a police officer, you're

886
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:13,560
no longer Delta, Navy, like all these other, you know, these high ranking services, and

887
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,920
they expect you to survive in the everyday world.

888
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:18,040
And you don't know how to do so.

889
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,720
And so I think that it is important.

890
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:25,760
I love that we're in a space where we can talk more about mental health, but that won't

891
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:31,960
be enough until we can just reduce or eliminate the stigma because people don't, most people

892
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,800
don't know that it doesn't, it didn't start with you coming into the work that you're

893
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:36,800
doing.

894
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,520
Most of it started before that.

895
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,040
So yeah, it's tough.

896
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:43,040
It's weird.

897
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,640
That's the biggest thing I think I've learned entering this world because I have zero education

898
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:52,560
and training in any type of psychology, psychiatry, peer support, I'm like the podcast producer

899
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:58,800
dude who also has a lot of teaching time in the general sense of fire and EMS.

900
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,040
But I've learned the most is that first of all, especially our younger generations, because

901
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,600
they're younger, come in not knowing they've been affected throughout their life.

902
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:13,400
Certainly the younger humans in 2025 are much more self-aware because we talk about it more.

903
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,560
They're growing up in a culture where you should say, yeah, I don't like this.

904
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:17,800
Something's weird with me right now.

905
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,600
Whereas you would have stuffed that away a long time ago.

906
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,040
So when we talk to people that are quote having troubles, you're right.

907
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:29,080
We see the, not the general public's like, oh, you must have seen so much.

908
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,760
It's like, well, I had all this stuff happening to me before I got there and it's been exacerbated

909
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,520
by this lifestyle, this job.

910
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,400
And not only is the job hard, but it goes on 56 hours a week.

911
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,600
I have a stay at home wife.

912
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:42,600
I got two kids.

913
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:48,440
I got to work another job to keep things going and, and, and, and, and like everybody else.

914
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:53,920
And then I get that little extra click of the reality of I get to see four people's

915
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,000
worst day of their life before I've had lunch that day.

916
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,000
Yeah.

917
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,000
Yeah.

918
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,000
It's a lot of that.

919
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,000
I think that's, I think you hit the nail on the head.

920
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,440
I think the public just worth it.

921
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:09,440
It's a lot of the calls we go on, but they don't realize we all have a life at eight

922
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:16,160
o'clock when shift ends and that life comes with life, life, goods and bads, traumas,

923
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,440
good things, bad things, whatever it might be.

924
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,320
And the next day when I show up, I have to tuck all that stuff away and now I'm dealing

925
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,040
with your problems and then you're up all night.

926
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:27,040
Yes.

927
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,760
So I think it's one of those things where it's, it, it, there's a culmination of a lot

928
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:37,360
of things that go into the trauma that first responders really deal with is it's not one,

929
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:38,520
there's not one road.

930
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,840
There's a lot of paths that leave that lead to it.

931
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:47,000
The trauma is a bucket and it accepts many different forms or backpack.

932
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,640
To be honest, a lot of the stuff that, that we deal with on the peer support stuff isn't

933
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:51,640
work stuff.

934
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:52,640
Yeah.

935
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,680
A lot of the stuff we deal with, with the peer support team is life.

936
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:56,680
Yeah.

937
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,360
The exacerbation of life around the hard job.

938
00:54:58,360 --> 00:54:59,360
Yeah.

939
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,320
But you can't be home enough so that you're having a problem with your wife or your kids

940
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:06,220
are sick and you still have to be at work and, and, and, and, and, and.

941
00:55:06,220 --> 00:55:09,960
How often is the prevalence of mandatory overtime for you?

942
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:10,960
Yeah.

943
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:11,960
Depends on the department.

944
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:12,960
Depends on the department.

945
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,880
Depending on, especially like our, what you see at the most is dispatchers and private

946
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:22,560
EMS right now are just like, we talk to private EMS people that come to my department and

947
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,400
we've had a few youngers and they're like, yeah, I'm used to working the same amount

948
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,360
of hours and making half the amount, blah, blah, blah.

949
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,800
But they're not telling you is they're supposed to work 36 hours a week, 40 hours a week and

950
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,360
they're getting mandatory up to 60 hours a week.

951
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,360
That's insane.

952
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:36,360
Dispatchers are real.

953
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,840
And dispatchers are just like, not only in my eight hour shift where they answer the

954
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,240
call literally 500 times, how am I going to need you to stick around another four and

955
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:46,000
then I need you to come back eight hours later.

956
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,000
Yeah.

957
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,000
Yeah.

958
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:49,000
Yeah.

959
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,000
I don't think this is, this is the thing as well.

960
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,720
I mean, I live this 56 hours a week, which, you know, I think you guys are familiar.

961
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:58,320
I think we talked about this when I was on your show, but in itself is insanity as we

962
00:55:58,320 --> 00:55:59,320
touched on earlier.

963
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,400
Why is it not 40 hours a week like everyone else?

964
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:07,400
But then to have to phone your wife, your husband and, you know, tell your kids, Hey,

965
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,160
I can't come to Dan for donuts.

966
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:10,160
I've done nothing wrong.

967
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,800
I've just, my management is so shit that once again, rather than filling these gaps with

968
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,760
new firefighters, we're relying on us.

969
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,480
The analogy I use is that log PT that you see in, you know, buds in the seal training,

970
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,800
you know, you're supposed to have eight men on that log and now there's seven, now there's

971
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,640
six, you know, and you're still carrying it.

972
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,860
So every time that someone's gone, you're having to work more and more and the impact

973
00:56:35,860 --> 00:56:40,780
on the relationships and the shame and guilt that comes with that, you know, that's just

974
00:56:40,780 --> 00:56:41,780
compounding it.

975
00:56:41,780 --> 00:56:46,000
And what drives me crazy is that the people that make these decisions, they go home at

976
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,080
five o'clock Monday to Friday.

977
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,080
It doesn't affect them.

978
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,900
So out of sight, out of mind.

979
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:55,960
And I think that is completely disgusting because not only is it our first responders

980
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,760
lives, it's their relationships.

981
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,800
And even if you look at the science, the health of their offspring is affected.

982
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,360
We have a much higher prevalence of pediatric cancers and Down syndrome and autism.

983
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:12,200
So you know, this is so, so needed that we look at the work week because I mean, I'll

984
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,880
get Manisha's perspective in a second, but I haven't had a person yet tell me anything

985
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:23,000
other than sleep deprivation is directly related to insert all mental ill health, addiction

986
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,020
and anxiety, depression, suicide ideation, all the things.

987
00:57:26,020 --> 00:57:28,880
So the evidence is all there, like we said.

988
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:34,840
And if we're not fixing the root pillar of human health, which is sleep, then we're scratching

989
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:35,840
at the surface.

990
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,600
If we just put an EAP piece of paper on the board and say, well, that's mental health

991
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:40,600
fixed.

992
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:41,600
Absolutely.

993
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:42,600
Absolutely.

994
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,600
Sleep is sleep is ground zero.

995
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,160
You have to be able to be in a space where you're getting healthy sleep.

996
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,920
And I think that's probably the number one thing that all five of our disciplines are

997
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,600
struggling with is sleep.

998
00:57:54,600 --> 00:58:02,640
And it leads into so many other things because your brain isn't able to properly to work

999
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,520
properly work without being able to.

1000
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,320
We push it now because our brains are supercomputers.

1001
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,440
We push them and they're able to do these magical things.

1002
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:12,440
Right.

1003
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,320
So you take that two hour nap, you're like, oh, okay, that's good.

1004
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,320
That's all I need.

1005
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,640
I'm going to go for another 16 hours.

1006
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,520
At some point, you're going to not be able to do that anymore.

1007
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,860
At some point, you're going to break down and you're going to stop.

1008
00:58:23,860 --> 00:58:29,280
And so something as simple as like getting more sleep or just getting better sleep, you

1009
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:33,680
know, understanding your sleep hygiene and how do you get the most sound sleep whenever

1010
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:38,520
you can can make a world of difference for our first responders and their families.

1011
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,000
But you're absolutely right.

1012
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,340
The first responder world does not just affect the first responder.

1013
00:58:42,340 --> 00:58:43,340
It bleeds on its families.

1014
00:58:43,340 --> 00:58:45,800
It bleeds on the children and everyone else around them.

1015
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:52,000
And so when we got into the space of creating this program, we wanted to make sure we included

1016
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:53,000
that.

1017
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:59,360
And it's super important to be able to make sure this program also covered spouses, children,

1018
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:05,000
anyone else who's a close member to our first responders because they have to go home.

1019
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,000
Right.

1020
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:13,800
They the stress, the trauma, the first one of the first times I met Mike, I think this

1021
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,560
is before he played a really bad trick on me.

1022
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:25,560
But one of the first times I met Mike is that he told me he said most people in their lives

1023
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,640
only get that one worst day of your life.

1024
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:28,640
Right.

1025
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,480
You only get one like I can't believe this happened.

1026
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:31,480
Worst day of your life.

1027
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,480
And people spend their lifetime working through that.

1028
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:41,560
Firefighters and first responders go through 20, 25 worst days of people's lives in a shift

1029
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:42,560
and a shift.

1030
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:49,160
And you times that by how long somebody has been in service and then them needing to go

1031
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,480
home to their spouses and to their families.

1032
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,760
And then that's just putting that in that box.

1033
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,480
But then what happened?

1034
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,320
What has this person been through before they even got into the service?

1035
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,360
What is buried so low at the bottom before they even got to the service?

1036
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:13,240
For the first, the capacity of emotional kind of separation and kind of mentally blocking

1037
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,240
out certain things is top notch for first responders.

1038
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:23,120
But it's also the key thing that's making life outside of the work unbearable.

1039
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:30,320
So that's why we're seeing high numbers of suicide later in the service years, soon after

1040
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:36,760
retirement, or once people are realizing that they can't do what they did in the first couple

1041
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:41,480
years, not being able to hold their anger, not being able to hold their alcohol, not

1042
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:46,800
being able to do, you know, just brush things off their shoulders like they once before.

1043
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,040
Now they're in a space where they don't have a capacity to even learn a skill to be able

1044
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:58,360
to, you know, get themselves back to a safe and a healthy state of emotional regulation.

1045
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:06,760
And so the goal is to try to help people before it becomes too hard, before it becomes too

1046
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,400
late.

1047
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:16,400
In the state of Michigan, last November, so just a few months ago, was the, in the month

1048
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:22,480
of November, we lost, I think it was a total of six, Mike?

1049
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:23,480
Participants in suicide?

1050
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:24,480
Six confirmed.

1051
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,440
Yep, six confirmed.

1052
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,720
And so the highest that we've ever had in the state, the most that we've had in that

1053
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:38,960
in one month, and the reasons that we learned were all things that had someone had an opportunity

1054
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:44,040
to process probably years before it would have, I think they would have been okay to

1055
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:48,800
be able to make it through the kind of the straw that broke the camel's back in that

1056
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:49,800
space.

1057
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:57,360
So it's real, the struggle of not being able to handle things because you were taught how

1058
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,920
to handle them improperly.

1059
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:03,840
It's real, and it's super hard for our first responders.

1060
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:04,840
Absolutely.

1061
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:10,000
Well, Mike, I want to get to kind of your journey through the mental health lens, and

1062
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,080
then we'll get to how you all came together.

1063
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:18,340
So as you progressed through your career, were there any personal struggles that led

1064
01:02:18,340 --> 01:02:20,040
you into this?

1065
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:25,800
And then if not, what was your path into peer support, CISM, and then ultimately this?

1066
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,200
I think there was, yeah, I mean, there was a ton of struggles, actually.

1067
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:32,040
I mean, one of them was being how young I first started in all this.

1068
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:38,440
I started, I was an EMT when I was 18, got my medic when I was 19, and you're dealing

1069
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:44,240
with stuff, you know, your brain isn't even formed yet completely.

1070
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:49,760
And coming in at that time, it was the old school mentality of you keep your mouth shut,

1071
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:51,840
you don't talk about it.

1072
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:56,720
And here I am 19 years old, and I'm in a world with 30, 40, 50 year olds.

1073
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:57,720
Not in Mayberry.

1074
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,000
You weren't working in Mayberry.

1075
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:00,960
He was working in a busy spot.

1076
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,800
And you're looking to them to see how do I do this?

1077
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:05,800
You know what I mean?

1078
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,320
And you see that you kind of keep your mouth shut, you move on.

1079
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:18,920
But going through, I remember 19, 20 years old having dead infants, dead kids, you know,

1080
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,520
and not really knowing what to do with that.

1081
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:29,400
Because 18, 19 years old, 20 years old, my friends, I had no, none of my friends understood

1082
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,920
what I did.

1083
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,360
They were going to college, they were going to college parties, they were doing these,

1084
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:35,600
you know, this, that, and the other.

1085
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,640
And it was hard to talk to them about it, because there was no realm of they could not

1086
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,360
understand that kind of stuff.

1087
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:43,720
Right?

1088
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:49,520
You know, moving through that even, I remember, you know, back in 2015, my dad was diagnosed

1089
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,760
with leukemia.

1090
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,480
We almost lost him a couple times.

1091
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:01,400
And then, so going through that journey with him and seeing, you know, how that affected

1092
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:02,640
him.

1093
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:08,080
If I wasn't at work, I was downtown, he was inpatient, getting chemo, you know, kind of

1094
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:09,840
seeing how that process goes.

1095
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,280
And you're in, you're on a floor with all people who are going through chemo.

1096
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,600
And you know, if I wasn't at work, I was up there with him.

1097
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:21,160
And you know, you come to the realization that your parents aren't going to be around

1098
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:22,160
forever.

1099
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,280
And it's a hard pill to swallow.

1100
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,520
But same deal, you know, no idea how to talk about it.

1101
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:29,520
Right?

1102
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:35,360
So, 2017 is when I had a run that really, really screwed me up.

1103
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:40,680
It was a, I had a son back in 2015 as well.

1104
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,600
And he was born with a cleft lip and palate.

1105
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:49,600
So his first year, I mean, we were, we had two major surgeries to repair his cleft lip

1106
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,280
and palate.

1107
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,200
He was on oxygen, he had an NG tube.

1108
01:04:54,200 --> 01:05:03,200
I mean, we basically slept next to him with a BVM in case he stopped breathing.

1109
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:10,360
Multiple trips to the neonatal intensive care unit for failure to thrive.

1110
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:16,800
So I mean, that first year was, you know, I just got through the leukemia with my dad.

1111
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,440
Then that happens.

1112
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:27,240
Then I have 2017, I had a run where a little girl, same age as my son, floating in a swimming

1113
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,080
pool.

1114
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,600
And that one was the one that got me.

1115
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:36,040
Like the other ones, you know, we've had other ones, but that was the one that was like,

1116
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,960
you know, we talked about, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back.

1117
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:47,080
And it was one of those things where I knew it got me more than the other runs per se.

1118
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:48,720
There's five of us on the run.

1119
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,280
Nobody ever talked about it.

1120
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:56,000
I actually talk about it pretty freely now, but you know, they had a clinician come in

1121
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,160
and talk to us.

1122
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:07,200
And this dude comes in, you know, it's a low bid EAP, no idea what we do, comes in, turns

1123
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:08,200
his chair around.

1124
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:12,200
So he's going to sit like a cool guy and talk to me.

1125
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,480
And I, you know, I start explaining the situation and he looks at me.

1126
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,560
I mean, we're probably five minutes into this conversation.

1127
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,240
And he looks at me and goes, yeah, man, I totally understand.

1128
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,000
And at that point, I, I shot a die, stood up.

1129
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,760
I'm like, Hey, thanks for your time.

1130
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:31,560
You know, there's no way you can understand pulling a kid out of a swimming pool, you

1131
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,960
know, the same size as your son, the same age.

1132
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:36,840
There's no way, right?

1133
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:37,940
And that's all we had.

1134
01:06:37,940 --> 01:06:38,940
That was it.

1135
01:06:38,940 --> 01:06:44,400
You know, and I look around and see these other guys, they're, you know, they act, they

1136
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:45,680
seem like they were okay.

1137
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:46,680
Right.

1138
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:48,720
So now I'm starting to think, all right, well, what's wrong with me?

1139
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,200
Why is this getting me type deal?

1140
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:57,920
And didn't go to talk to anybody about it.

1141
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,300
Things started progressing, you know, you can't sleep.

1142
01:07:00,300 --> 01:07:06,360
So then you start pouring some drinks, that type of thing took me down.

1143
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:12,280
I mean, a really, really dark path pretty quickly actually.

1144
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,440
And you know, eventually it was, it was to a point where, you know, you had the suicidal

1145
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,680
ideations and things like that.

1146
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:23,740
And it got to the point where it was like, all right, I need, I do need to go get help.

1147
01:07:23,740 --> 01:07:28,080
And so then, then we move on to the stress of trying to find a clinician.

1148
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:29,080
Right.

1149
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:36,080
So I go see my first lady, I go see, and I made that lady cry.

1150
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,240
I'm handing her, I'm handing her the Kleenex box, like, Hey, you know, it's going to be

1151
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:44,560
all right, you know, type thing, you know, looking like, do I get my money back here?

1152
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,760
Because like, you know, I'm counseling you now.

1153
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:53,320
You know, we have, then I had another guy who just wanted nothing but war stories, you

1154
01:07:53,320 --> 01:08:02,880
know, and finally on the fourth try, I found my person, you know, we connected, it was

1155
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:08,000
something that the personalities connected.

1156
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,200
And she really helped me through a lot of that stuff.

1157
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:15,000
And it was, it was a lot, it wasn't just that run, but it was unpacking a lot of that stuff

1158
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,280
to happen also, because it was all within years of each other.

1159
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:26,040
But I do remember sitting in her office one time, it was, it was pretty early on around

1160
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,920
when peer support started becoming a thing with the IFF.

1161
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:34,600
And she asked me, she goes, well, what about, you know, if you talk to other firefighters

1162
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,960
about your, your struggles and stuff, I started laughing at her.

1163
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,200
I said, that'll never happen.

1164
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,160
I go, they'll laugh me out of the building.

1165
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,160
Right.

1166
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,400
And she goes, you know, what, why, why can't you do that?

1167
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:52,280
I go, because we don't do that, that the stigma that's attached to it, but you know, that

1168
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:53,840
type of deal.

1169
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:57,280
And I remember leaving that office and it was one of those things where like, I knew

1170
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:02,600
the system was screwed up because I knew a lot of dudes who were like me.

1171
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:06,480
And I remember driving one day, I was riding Ashley the rescue with the same guy who was

1172
01:09:06,480 --> 01:09:08,560
on that run with me.

1173
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:14,660
And he looked at me and said, he told me he was going to see a therapist over that run.

1174
01:09:14,660 --> 01:09:20,840
And I looked at him and it felt like 3000 pounds were taken off my, my shoulders because

1175
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,840
I wasn't the only person who had problems with it.

1176
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:25,960
You didn't feel alone.

1177
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:26,960
You know what I mean?

1178
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,440
You had like the self-imposed weight in your backpack.

1179
01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:30,440
Yes.

1180
01:09:30,440 --> 01:09:31,440
Right.

1181
01:09:31,440 --> 01:09:32,640
Because you didn't know you could share that weight.

1182
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:33,640
Yes.

1183
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,480
And you know, him and I are talking about it and it made me feel a lot better.

1184
01:09:36,480 --> 01:09:41,440
So then it started kind of like, okay, maybe there is something to this peer support stuff,

1185
01:09:41,440 --> 01:09:42,920
you know?

1186
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:49,000
And I told myself, I'm not a huge like religious guy, but I told myself, I go, if this is something

1187
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,440
that I'm supposed to do, there'll be a sign.

1188
01:09:52,440 --> 01:09:53,840
Right.

1189
01:09:53,840 --> 01:10:00,960
And I remember sitting at a union meeting probably six months later and our delegation

1190
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:05,080
had come back from the IFF convention and this is when peer support was just getting

1191
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:06,080
started.

1192
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:10,520
And I remember at the union meeting, they're like, hey, you know, we heard about this peer

1193
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,240
support stuff.

1194
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:17,800
Is there, you know, we're wondering if anybody would want to start it.

1195
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:22,320
And I remember sitting in the meeting and it was like that, oh, you know, like, that's

1196
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:23,320
it.

1197
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:24,320
It's like, there's your sign.

1198
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:25,320
You know what I mean?

1199
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:31,920
And so it was one of those things where it was like, okay, this is what I've been looking

1200
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:32,920
for.

1201
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,640
This is the sign I was kind of looking for.

1202
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,000
And so I raised my hand and said, you know, I'll start it.

1203
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:39,760
I'll do it.

1204
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:49,680
And we started our program with 12 individuals and it's been going on now for seven years.

1205
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,160
It was something that we grew from the bottom up, grassroots.

1206
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,320
I mean, it was boots on the ground.

1207
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:58,320
That's where we started.

1208
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:04,200
And a lot of it, you know, the team that I had around me is really what made it happen.

1209
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,480
I can't say enough about the team.

1210
01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:13,120
And from there, it really grew because we just started, we had a real honest conversation

1211
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:19,760
about what were all the barriers that we ran into to getting help for mental health.

1212
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,720
And we just started checking them off.

1213
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:23,040
Okay, how do we fix this?

1214
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:24,200
How do we fix this?

1215
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:28,240
It was like you talked about when enough people had enough of whatever's going on.

1216
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,480
All right, if you're not going to fix it, then we are.

1217
01:11:31,480 --> 01:11:38,200
And that's really kind of how our peer team made ourselves what we are today is just that.

1218
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:39,940
We see the system's broke.

1219
01:11:39,940 --> 01:11:41,520
We know it's not going to get any better.

1220
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,280
So we're going to make it better.

1221
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,680
You know, from there, I mean, I still go to therapy today.

1222
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:52,800
I still go to therapy once a week and see the same therapist.

1223
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,280
But you know, since then, there's other things.

1224
01:11:54,280 --> 01:12:00,920
My dad got leukemia again, which he's in remission from that, but then got a different type of

1225
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:04,200
cancer, been through a divorce.

1226
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:09,840
But because of those things, when these things happened, I was set up for success.

1227
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,400
I wasn't set up for failure.

1228
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:18,400
And so it's really kind of building that resiliency that has helped move that kind of journey

1229
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:19,400
along.

1230
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:26,160
And that's when the MPFFU started a behavioral health committee for all of Michigan.

1231
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,920
Hey, I'll join that.

1232
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:35,560
I remember seeing, and that's actually how I met Jeff, was they were doing a.

1233
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,520
Yeah, I'm like a podcast nerd.

1234
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:43,120
So like when I've gotten education years and years ago, I got good at, I guess, digital

1235
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:44,120
media in a sense.

1236
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:45,120
I mean, it's 2020 something, right?

1237
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:46,440
You're going to be good at digital media.

1238
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:49,680
So I've been doing videos and audio for over 10 years.

1239
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:53,680
And then I got into the podcast game when a group I was working for needed to get information

1240
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,440
out about the pandemic to over 4,000 of our paramedics.

1241
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:01,240
And then the Michigan Professional Firefighters Union, which is our state representation of

1242
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:04,480
the IFF said, hey, you want to do a podcast with us?

1243
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:05,920
Yes, let's do it.

1244
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,300
And then I kind of became a podcast guy doing a bunch of them.

1245
01:13:09,300 --> 01:13:12,880
And then Mike hit me up like, hey, what do you think about doing one about mental health

1246
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:15,000
for this frontline strong another five program?

1247
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,840
And I'm like, sure, I don't know anything about it.

1248
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:19,440
I'm probably need that too.

1249
01:13:19,440 --> 01:13:20,880
We should probably talk.

1250
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,080
So and then he introduced me to Manisha.

1251
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:26,080
And that's when my education really started.

1252
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:28,720
Mike kind of opened up to me about his story.

1253
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,920
And then he's talking and then I'm being flooded with all my memories.

1254
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:37,240
Like, huh, I wonder how much of my personality has been affected by not only my my growing

1255
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,760
up, but also growing up in the fire service.

1256
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:42,280
Because like Mike, I started at 19.

1257
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:43,280
Right.

1258
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:45,360
I was real young, just like him.

1259
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,580
And you start to see these things in a broader perspective.

1260
01:13:48,580 --> 01:13:52,840
And then you start playing all the stories in your head, like the thousands of conversations

1261
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:58,120
I've heard around a firehouse where guys talk and I'm like, this guy's going through a divorce.

1262
01:13:58,120 --> 01:13:59,400
This guy's got cancer.

1263
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:00,840
This other one lost a father.

1264
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,180
This other one did it.

1265
01:14:02,180 --> 01:14:05,920
And you start seeing all these instances and remembering all these times when somebody

1266
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:11,800
needed not just a shoulder, they needed resilience and they needed a community around them to

1267
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:16,100
build it and make sure they knew what that was on day one.

1268
01:14:16,100 --> 01:14:20,160
So that the backpack we carry that we're putting in rocks, rocks and every day, we're offloading

1269
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:21,440
that thing on a regular basis.

1270
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:24,160
We're not breaking the straps off.

1271
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:25,840
So that's a big.

1272
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:26,960
Yeah.

1273
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,760
For so many years, it was nobody wanted to talk about mental health because it was the

1274
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:31,760
elephant in the room.

1275
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:32,760
You know what I mean?

1276
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:34,360
And you couldn't with anybody make it funny.

1277
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:36,800
Even the people that needed it were the ones making fun of you.

1278
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:37,800
Yes.

1279
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:38,800
Let's be honest.

1280
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:39,800
Absolutely.

1281
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,440
And we thought we were going to get laughed out.

1282
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:46,600
We thought we were going to get laughed out of the fire service.

1283
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:53,600
And within our first year, we had over three or 400 contacts.

1284
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:55,640
What year was this?

1285
01:14:55,640 --> 01:15:01,900
This was probably 2019 is when we started it.

1286
01:15:01,900 --> 01:15:08,120
And since then, we haven't had a year yet where we've had under 350 to 400 contacts.

1287
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:10,480
And how many people you service in there?

1288
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:11,480
That's your department, correct?

1289
01:15:11,480 --> 01:15:13,840
No, that's all departments in Southeast Michigan.

1290
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:14,840
OK.

1291
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:15,840
Yeah.

1292
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:16,840
Because you guys are handy.

1293
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:17,840
Yeah.

1294
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,840
So Mike's done a great job of like leading the way of building this non-official network

1295
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:23,480
in a lot of ways.

1296
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:24,480
Official non-official, right?

1297
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:25,480
Yeah.

1298
01:15:25,480 --> 01:15:29,120
And really how it started was we were all starting peer support teams at the same time.

1299
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:35,120
And there was no years ago, there was no like, this is how you start a team.

1300
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:36,120
Like this is how you do this.

1301
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,080
There was no standardized anything.

1302
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:42,200
So when you would run into another team, we would just network with each other.

1303
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:43,840
Hey, what's working good with you guys?

1304
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,400
What's working good with us?

1305
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:50,280
And that's how we kind of built this network throughout the state of peer teams was, hey,

1306
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:51,760
oh, you know what?

1307
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:52,760
I like that idea.

1308
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:53,760
I'm going to take that idea.

1309
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:55,360
Oh, well, I like this idea from your team.

1310
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:57,040
I'm going to take that idea.

1311
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:03,380
And that's really how the kind of the genesis of how these teams came together happened.

1312
01:16:03,380 --> 01:16:08,960
And then when Frontline Strong came about, we never really had a centralized anything

1313
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,040
for mental health support in the state.

1314
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:13,560
That's where Frontline Strong came in.

1315
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:19,880
And it was like this centralized force where we can organize under one umbrella.

1316
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:20,880
And really-

1317
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:21,880
On behalf of all the five-

1318
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:22,880
All first responders.

1319
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,280
And their immediate family members, because they're on the team too.

1320
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:26,280
Yeah.

1321
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:27,280
I'm getting mandatory overtime.

1322
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:28,280
My wife's on the team that day.

1323
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:29,280
You know what I mean?

1324
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,680
She's taking care of the house or whoever else I need to be because I can't be there

1325
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:33,680
that day.

1326
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:34,680
Yeah.

1327
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:39,400
Well, Benisha hit on a point that I think really needs to be the next phase when it

1328
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:43,800
comes to talking about mental health and the fire service, which we talked about stigma

1329
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,360
and 10 plus years ago, absolutely.

1330
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,040
That was a pertinent conversation.

1331
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:50,800
And we were calling everything PTSD.

1332
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:55,400
And now fast forward to 2025, we understand PTSD versus moral injury.

1333
01:16:55,400 --> 01:17:00,080
We're talking about sleep deprivation, all these other things that need to be discussed.

1334
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:05,440
Where I think we've fallen short, and this is obviously just nationally, is that we're

1335
01:17:05,440 --> 01:17:06,440
stuck on stigma.

1336
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:08,600
Like I say, we've got the trouser legs stuck on stigma.

1337
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,960
And we're not talking about post-traumatic growth and the hope that comes with that.

1338
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:18,760
I truly believe that unaddressed childhood trauma becomes a fracture in the foundation.

1339
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,320
But once it's addressed, once it's worked through, that becomes resilience.

1340
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:24,800
I think that's truly the definition of resilience.

1341
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,760
We have these classes and people are shouting and they're going through collapsed mazes

1342
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:28,760
and stuff.

1343
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,480
That's not resilience, in my opinion.

1344
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:34,600
It's whatever you struggle with, whether you've addressed it before or whether you address

1345
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:38,560
it today, that is really what makes you a great first responder because now you can

1346
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:39,720
be more empathetic.

1347
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:42,200
Now you have that strength.

1348
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:46,120
You can deal with some of these calls that maybe would have challenged you before.

1349
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:50,040
So talk to me about the formation of front running strong together.

1350
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,800
And then let's talk about the barrier to entry because, I mean, for example, one huge one

1351
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:54,920
is cost.

1352
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:58,480
Another one is the availability of a culturally competent clinician.

1353
01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:03,400
So talk to me about the formation and what are these solutions that you're offering

1354
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:08,320
the Michigan first responders and their families so they can work through these struggles and

1355
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:12,840
become even better first responders, putting hope in this conversation.

1356
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:15,880
Yeah, absolutely.

1357
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:24,120
So I think it's about 2020 that we got word that frontline strong together was a go.

1358
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:28,320
And so a little bit of background on how the program got started is we have some pretty

1359
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:31,640
major heavy hitting unions.

1360
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:38,160
So we worked with the POAM, which is the Police Officers Association of Michigan, and PFFU,

1361
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:43,240
Michigan Professional Firefighters Union, and Fraternal Order of Police, which is FOP.

1362
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:49,820
And so we had these folks with other lobbyists come and say, hey, we need to provide something

1363
01:18:49,820 --> 01:18:52,400
more than EAPs for our members.

1364
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:59,720
So something more than just go to your EAP or go to talk to someone for disciplinary

1365
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:00,720
actions.

1366
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,800
We need to find something for actual mental health support and behavioral health support

1367
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,360
because people are struggling.

1368
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:15,160
And so we got this amazing grant that is funded by the state of Michigan that has tasked us

1369
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:23,240
to offer services for police, firefighters, EMS, 911 dispatch, and corrections to all

1370
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:28,240
83 counties in the state of Michigan, which is this is the first time anything like this

1371
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:29,400
has ever been done.

1372
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:35,040
And so when you get that thrown on your lap, and that's the only direction you get, you

1373
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:37,800
kind of have to like get in and figure out where you go.

1374
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:42,560
And so first thing we learned on the Wayne Health side, so we work with two different

1375
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:43,560
entities here.

1376
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:49,000
The 21st 7, 365 call center, which is also a space.

1377
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:52,520
I know that there's 988 and there's other suicide prevention lines, but this is the

1378
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:57,200
first time that the state has had its own first responder call line.

1379
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:01,200
And so a call line where a first responder can call and say, hey, I'm struggling today.

1380
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:06,160
I just need someone to talk to all the way to, hey, I've had to switch my schedule.

1381
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:07,640
My wife's schedule hasn't changed.

1382
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:10,880
We need to find evening daycare in our area.

1383
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:11,960
Can you help us find it?

1384
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,240
All those resources can be found on this line to make it even better.

1385
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:19,360
It's manned by part-time and retired first responders.

1386
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:21,740
So you're going to talk to a first responder as well.

1387
01:20:21,740 --> 01:20:24,800
And then also managed by people who have the same degrees as myself.

1388
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,740
So like clinicians who can help within the crisis moment.

1389
01:20:28,740 --> 01:20:33,040
We can take calls all the way from suicide calls all the way again to something super

1390
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:35,280
simple and just needing a resource.

1391
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:45,240
And so that's 24-7-365 manned by a state program called MyCal and operated by a program in

1392
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:46,680
Oakland County called Common Ground.

1393
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:47,680
And they're pretty amazing.

1394
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:53,320
And so that has been one of the things that have helped us because sometimes people just

1395
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:55,320
need to find a call space.

1396
01:20:55,320 --> 01:21:03,160
But within that 24-7-365 crisis line, we found that peer support is the biggest thing.

1397
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:07,760
A lot of people, once they hear mental health or behavioral health and the distinction between

1398
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:12,720
the two in this program is that behavioral health really focuses on the addiction.

1399
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:20,960
It focuses on substance, things like that, behavioral type things that need to change.

1400
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:25,960
And so we kind of like to have that distinction because two reasons.

1401
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:31,600
One, unfortunately, our insurances have got a hold of these words that are triggers.

1402
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:36,000
And so what we will find is that insurance will say, we'll cover this amount of behavioral

1403
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:40,600
health and this amount of mental health, but we won't cover them both in the same space.

1404
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:44,600
And so we want people to understand that there is a distinction between the two.

1405
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:50,520
And our goal is to make sure that we can help you find the right coverage that you need.

1406
01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:52,060
So that's important.

1407
01:21:52,060 --> 01:21:53,280
But peer support is huge.

1408
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:59,000
So what we found is that it was important to identify who's doing what in all 83 counties

1409
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:04,720
and have a central place on our website and within our phone call that our phone line

1410
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:09,520
where people can call and say, I need to talk to someone who's in the same field as me,

1411
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:13,000
who's not in the same department as me, but who can understand what I have going on.

1412
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:15,360
Can you give me connect me with that person?

1413
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:19,760
And you can either call our car line or our website and you can find a peer support network

1414
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,280
within your area, within your zone.

1415
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:27,640
Now Mike is fancy enough to where people just call him directly.

1416
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:32,240
But we try to not have that be the burden of our individual members is to have people

1417
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:34,180
calling them directly all the time.

1418
01:22:34,180 --> 01:22:38,400
So we encourage people to come to our website where they can find peer support, peer supporters

1419
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:39,400
in their area.

1420
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:47,840
But I think the single thing that makes our Clearinghouse, which is our website, so spectacular

1421
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:54,800
is that we have a list of actively being updated of culturally competent clinicians.

1422
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:59,560
Now this is important because as I mentioned earlier, you don't just want to send a first

1423
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:05,400
responder to somebody who says, oh, I'm a trauma therapist or I'm a depression expert

1424
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:08,280
and they have no experience working with a first responder.

1425
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:13,600
They may be amazing at the work they do, but you have to understand the culture of working

1426
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:14,600
with first responders.

1427
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:18,320
And the beauty about this is that you can integrate yourself in that culture and you

1428
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:22,520
can learn how to work with first responders, but you're not going to know it right off

1429
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:23,520
the bat.

1430
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:30,160
So we took our time learning this, kind of went through the wringer.

1431
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:34,680
Mike and his team made me have my first panic attack ever because they tried to trap me

1432
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:36,400
in a burning building.

1433
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:39,160
Well, okay, so that's my trauma talking.

1434
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:46,200
That's what happened in my mind.

1435
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:47,200
That's my trauma talking.

1436
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:50,920
But actually it was an experience I had to come through and I did some training with

1437
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:54,080
the guys and actually with all five disciplines.

1438
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:59,000
And that's one of the things that we promote is doing ride alongs, learning how to learn

1439
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:03,440
more about the culture, learning more about your city and your county.

1440
01:24:03,440 --> 01:24:08,560
How are the municipalities servicing which areas in those areas so that you can understand?

1441
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:09,820
Like, okay.

1442
01:24:09,820 --> 01:24:23,760
So people in the city, firefighters in the city of Detroit will have in a 24 hour shift

1443
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:29,200
probably is going to have more cause than maybe city of Romeo, right?

1444
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:36,080
So it's a smaller place, things like that, and actually see things, see a lot more things

1445
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:37,840
and actually maybe even have a lot more fires.

1446
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:44,000
And so understanding where the city in which the first responders you're trying to serve

1447
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,960
is going to be huge.

1448
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,680
Understanding the first responders that you're going to work with is going to be huge.

1449
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:56,240
And then also understanding how, just like you mentioned, their childhoods kind of feed

1450
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:57,240
into that space.

1451
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:01,040
And that's going to be different than someone who has not had the same experiences.

1452
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:05,160
That's going to be different than someone who's like, oh, I have childhood trauma, but

1453
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:07,880
that isn't, you know, since then I've been okay.

1454
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:08,880
I've been great.

1455
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:11,960
I haven't seen anything significant, haven't ran into anything.

1456
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:13,400
My family's doing good.

1457
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:14,400
Everyone's healthy.

1458
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:17,120
Guarantee you how you treat that person is going to be very different than how you treat

1459
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:18,940
a firefighter.

1460
01:25:18,940 --> 01:25:24,280
And so that's just a few of the small things I think because I'm super excited about this

1461
01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:26,520
program that we do.

1462
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:30,240
But I think those are, I think I've maybe covered some of the most important things

1463
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:36,880
that we do outside of probably the most exciting thing we do, which is our podcast, because

1464
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:43,120
it is the way that the people communicate with Frontline Strong Together, which is also

1465
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:44,120
known as FSC5.

1466
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:47,680
And so we'll make sure that we put contact information so that you guys can see and learn

1467
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:50,400
more about the program.

1468
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:55,240
But yeah, I'll let the guys talk about Mines on the Frontline because this is probably

1469
01:25:55,240 --> 01:26:02,160
this, including our webinar that we do, which is not as exciting, although it's going to

1470
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:03,160
be in May 25th.

1471
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:07,360
We do have a webinar as well.

1472
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:14,000
But we found that our podcast and our webinars and our education trainings is the way that

1473
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:18,640
people communicate with us, is the way that we learn as we're doing what people are struggling

1474
01:26:18,640 --> 01:26:22,840
with, what people need and adjusting in real time.

1475
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:27,040
So this isn't a situation where we're like, oh, we have this and it's going to take us

1476
01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:28,800
years to create a new program.

1477
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:30,760
No, people need help now.

1478
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:33,560
So we're going to these places, we're talking to people in real time.

1479
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:39,600
And then next month in two months, we've created a space where people can have a dialogue or

1480
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:42,640
have access to a new treatment, a new training.

1481
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:44,440
And that's the beauty of what we do.

1482
01:26:44,440 --> 01:26:45,440
So yeah.

1483
01:26:45,440 --> 01:26:46,440
Beautiful.

1484
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:51,800
Yeah, it's been really, and again, underscoring the fact that my, you know, being a firefighter,

1485
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:56,440
a medic for so long, but also an instructor, facilitator, seeing these things come together

1486
01:26:56,440 --> 01:27:01,960
where FST five has produced a giant network where they offer the big three.

1487
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:06,360
Number one is the giant message of we need to decrease the stigma by talking to it and

1488
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:07,640
just having each other.

1489
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:11,360
You got to have a network, your literal social network, whether that's your friends, your

1490
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:16,080
family, hopefully the non first responders in your life that you keep close to you so

1491
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:17,600
they normalize you.

1492
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:21,320
And then you also need access to peer supporters, people that have a little bit more training

1493
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:23,500
on you and you got something going on.

1494
01:27:23,500 --> 01:27:27,520
And then you also need access to culturally competent clinicians and treatments that are

1495
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:29,560
actually going to be beneficial to you.

1496
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:33,600
And when you have a network of all of those working together for all five and their families,

1497
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:35,960
we're seeing tremendous benefits.

1498
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,280
Now we're still going to have problems.

1499
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:40,400
This program is not going to fix them.

1500
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:42,080
It's not designed to fix it.

1501
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:47,480
It's designed to be a safety net for when the things we know we're going to happen,

1502
01:27:47,480 --> 01:27:52,520
the human beings that operate our systems and the human beings that maintain a healthy

1503
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:57,040
life with those human beings, those frontline workers are going to break down at some point,

1504
01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,280
whether it's physical, financial or emotional.

1505
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:01,720
And we have to be here to protect them and help them.

1506
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:06,880
And one of the biggest benefits of frontline is bringing all this together increases the

1507
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:09,680
scope, the end of the people that are working on it.

1508
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:11,320
So that's the more people are being affected.

1509
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:13,720
That's also more brains working on a problem.

1510
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:18,280
It's more piles of things coming together to fix these things and to help a greater

1511
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:19,280
cause.

1512
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:22,560
And I think we're seeing Michigan, which is a very big state, got two parts, they got

1513
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:23,560
an upper peninsula lower.

1514
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:25,360
It's a pretty big state.

1515
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:31,560
It's a big world, but it becomes a small world, but a big neighborhood where we're all like,

1516
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:36,240
I feel like we're more in it together in Michigan, especially me learning from Frontline Strong

1517
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,200
in the last two years.

1518
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:42,000
And then doing the podcast and talking about so many people about the different things

1519
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:48,520
is we're shrinking the problem by staring at it and dissolving the stigma and then making

1520
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:52,000
people realize it's cool to admit you got something to work on.

1521
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:56,000
And then here's who you should call and then let us help you with the price.

1522
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:57,000
It's all the things.

1523
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,000
Yeah.

1524
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:02,620
Well, let me ask you quickly, because this is, I think, a big part of this conversation.

1525
01:29:02,620 --> 01:29:07,120
When people ask me, who approached me from companies, I want to help first responders.

1526
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:09,440
Who's an organization that ties you all together?

1527
01:29:09,440 --> 01:29:11,180
And I'm like, no one.

1528
01:29:11,180 --> 01:29:12,320
And it's just the hard truth.

1529
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:17,680
I wish that the union brought us all together and disseminated the information that we need

1530
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:22,880
and had a unified, standardized professional work week, all those kind of things.

1531
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:23,880
But we just don't.

1532
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:27,720
I say honestly, there's chiefs organization and there's FDIC and all these things, but

1533
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:30,480
we're still extremely siloed.

1534
01:29:30,480 --> 01:29:35,000
And I've having worked East Coast, West Coast and back to East again, arguably one of the

1535
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,880
richest and one of the poorest departments, one of the best and one of the worst.

1536
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,720
I'll leave everyone to kind of figure out which is which.

1537
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:45,840
I got an interesting perspective of the fire service nationally.

1538
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,680
And I realized that there's a lot of ego, a lot of narcissism.

1539
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:50,880
Oh, well, city doesn't talk to county.

1540
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:57,120
PD doesn't talk to FD, which again, insert Uvalde, lesson learned, make sure that you're

1541
01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:59,300
not one of those people.

1542
01:29:59,300 --> 01:30:04,280
But this is a barrier to growth, innovation, progress.

1543
01:30:04,280 --> 01:30:10,880
And like I said, the simple why do our firefighters work 56, the amount of pushback I get from

1544
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:12,360
that, oh, it'll never happen.

1545
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:18,360
Oh, you know, it's just justification of apathy rather than, you know, actually forging a

1546
01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:23,200
moral journey for your people and fixing some of these issues that are literally sending

1547
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:25,120
you to funerals.

1548
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:30,600
So what was it that was different in Michigan that brought all these these counties together

1549
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:34,560
so that you could bring this as an actual statewide initiative?

1550
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,120
Dr. A in a pile of money.

1551
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:45,240
I mean, honestly, I had a big, huge brain and a guy with a lot of coal who can see the

1552
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:46,240
future, man.

1553
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:47,240
I mean, Dr. A is awesome.

1554
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:51,920
I think that part of it, I think on the other part of it is as peer teams, we were already

1555
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,440
kind of doing it a little bit.

1556
01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:57,600
We were already our own network.

1557
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,840
You guys showed that the investment was worth the time.

1558
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:01,840
Yes.

1559
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:06,120
But but the problem we had seen years before that is we'd have programs like Frontline.

1560
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:08,280
But then there was an agenda.

1561
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:10,200
There was, you know what I mean?

1562
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:12,200
Or a narcissist running in the way.

1563
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:15,880
And they were kind of like flash in the pan things like they started out hot and heavy

1564
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:18,000
and then they would fade out.

1565
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:22,640
And we all kind of kept in touch with one another and had our own kind of network.

1566
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:25,160
And we even had like mutual aid agreements.

1567
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:26,160
You know what I mean?

1568
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:29,280
You're going to get to your department, you're going to call me or those types of things.

1569
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:34,520
So we had it, but we never had anything to bind us together or that centralized thing.

1570
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:42,000
So when we saw Frontline strong come together with Dr. A and money and the right people.

1571
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:46,160
And we saw that the one of the one of the biggest things that we saw with Frontline

1572
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:51,840
was every program prior to that was clinicians telling us what we needed.

1573
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:59,200
Okay, who had no idea what we did where Frontline started was tell us what you guys need.

1574
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:04,720
They took the approach of we don't know what we don't know and we need you guys to teach

1575
01:32:04,720 --> 01:32:05,720
us.

1576
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:07,200
Let's take our clinical world.

1577
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:09,400
Let's take your first responder world.

1578
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:11,960
Let's melt them together and then we'll get what we need.

1579
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:17,080
And that's that was the difference with this program and why it works so well is that they

1580
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:19,920
put their egos aside.

1581
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:20,920
Right?

1582
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:24,480
So we made ourselves vulnerable and said, hey, these are our problems.

1583
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:25,860
This is what we need.

1584
01:32:25,860 --> 01:32:27,200
They made themselves vulnerable.

1585
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:32,080
Hey, I don't know everything even though I got a doctor in front of my name.

1586
01:32:32,080 --> 01:32:35,320
And we sat down and had real conversations.

1587
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:39,280
And sometimes they were uncomfortable conversations where, hey, we're going to do this.

1588
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:43,880
And us as first responders looked at him and we're like, yeah, it's not going to work.

1589
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,880
And you know, and they were smart enough to listen, but they were smart enough to listen.

1590
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:52,760
And but vice versa, where we said, we want to do this and they come in and go, well,

1591
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:53,760
that's not how this works.

1592
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:55,100
We have to do it this way.

1593
01:32:55,100 --> 01:32:56,480
So it's a learning thing.

1594
01:32:56,480 --> 01:33:00,160
But that is really how this all came about was we had those.

1595
01:33:00,160 --> 01:33:02,240
We had certain things already in place.

1596
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:03,920
We just didn't have the money.

1597
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:05,080
We didn't have the resources.

1598
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:07,040
We didn't have any of these things.

1599
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:11,960
Whereas when frontline came in, it was a beautiful marriage between these two sides.

1600
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:13,240
And it could have gone south real quick.

1601
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:17,480
If you didn't have the right people running it, who didn't put the priority of seeking

1602
01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:22,600
to understand first, if that wasn't the priority, they would have come up with a plan of we're

1603
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:24,960
going to do X, Y and Z that had dumped money in it.

1604
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,880
A couple of events would have happened and it would have failed.

1605
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:32,480
But they took the time to listen and say, OK, what is it you think you need?

1606
01:33:32,480 --> 01:33:33,760
What is going on?

1607
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,440
What is actually affecting these humans?

1608
01:33:36,440 --> 01:33:41,200
Then they came up with a plan or a treatment plan essentially for the state.

1609
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:44,220
And that's many should correct me if I'm wrong, but that's kind of what you do as a clinical

1610
01:33:44,220 --> 01:33:48,240
therapist is you listen, listen, listen, and then you come up with a treatment plan.

1611
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:49,960
You don't just say, oh, oh, that hurts.

1612
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:50,960
Do this.

1613
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:51,960
Right.

1614
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:52,960
You got it.

1615
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:53,960
Yeah.

1616
01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:55,960
I definitely would say that.

1617
01:33:55,960 --> 01:33:56,960
How?

1618
01:33:56,960 --> 01:33:59,920
I mean, we we had to do something different.

1619
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:06,240
So I think that we learned a lot from we are continuing to learn a lot from our guys.

1620
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:07,240
It's painful, but

1621
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:12,680
What's interesting is that, you know, we have a really good program.

1622
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:17,920
We have all the best people and still will exist to where people don't even know about

1623
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:18,920
it in Michigan.

1624
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:19,920
We talk about this thing.

1625
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:24,200
I work with people at a department that's only about 80 people and there's still people

1626
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:27,720
there and I talk a lot that don't know about the program.

1627
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:28,720
So I can only imagine.

1628
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:29,720
Right.

1629
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,720
And so there's all these people right now we're trying to reach to to make sure they

1630
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:34,440
know they're not alone.

1631
01:34:34,440 --> 01:34:35,440
They're not.

1632
01:34:35,440 --> 01:34:37,960
And that's one of the big things about the podcast that we do.

1633
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:44,760
So Minds on the Frontline is like this outreach arm, this beacon, this this this lighthouse

1634
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:46,800
of hey, hey, come here.

1635
01:34:46,800 --> 01:34:51,320
Look, we have the information for we have some answers for you if you want them.

1636
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:56,280
We're not forcing anything on you, but we want everybody to know with a giant megaphone

1637
01:34:56,280 --> 01:34:57,280
that they're not alone.

1638
01:34:57,280 --> 01:34:58,280
Absolutely.

1639
01:34:58,280 --> 01:34:59,280
I think that you're right.

1640
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:03,840
I think that's one of the biggest things when we started this podcast.

1641
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:04,840
That's what it was about.

1642
01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:08,440
It was for many years we didn't talk about this stuff.

1643
01:35:08,440 --> 01:35:14,000
And it takes people who have gone through some things to talk about it and have that

1644
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,240
vulnerability to talk about it.

1645
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:19,800
We have a lot of guests on here who have gone through some things.

1646
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:26,080
You know, their parents have committed suicide or they they've gone through substance use

1647
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:27,680
or they've gone through these things.

1648
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:29,040
And it's a lot of them.

1649
01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:32,460
It's the first time they may have talked about it with anyone.

1650
01:35:32,460 --> 01:35:36,280
And if you can create that space that they feel safe enough to where they can have those

1651
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:43,240
conversations and they can be human and be vulnerable, that's what I think we look at

1652
01:35:43,240 --> 01:35:49,400
is hopefully somebody who's listening to that podcast goes, wow, that sounds a lot like

1653
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:50,400
me.

1654
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:51,400
Like I'm not messed up.

1655
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:52,400
Like I'm this.

1656
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,200
This isn't something that that's, you know, a life sentence.

1657
01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:57,240
I can get through this type of stuff.

1658
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:01,660
And, you know, it's it's been kind of kind of cool.

1659
01:36:01,660 --> 01:36:07,320
We've had a couple episodes where people have got a hold of us after the episode, especially

1660
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:12,000
with the suicide episodes and said, hey, you know, I thought about killing myself back

1661
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:13,400
in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1662
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:16,780
And, you know, I really appreciate your podcast, that type of thing.

1663
01:36:16,780 --> 01:36:19,760
And that was really, you know, one of the things that we talked about when we first

1664
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:26,360
started this podcast was if we could if we could get one person to listen to it and still

1665
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:29,600
be here, then this podcast was totally worth it.

1666
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:32,040
And we've seen that tenfold.

1667
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:37,400
So that's really the why we really started this was making it OK and having that arena

1668
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:40,800
where people can listen to and go, OK, there's nothing wrong with me.

1669
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:43,480
This is, you know, just a couple dummies with a mic.

1670
01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:45,480
Yeah, you know, nobody special.

1671
01:36:45,480 --> 01:36:48,240
A couple of dudes who've driven down the road.

1672
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:50,840
Yeah, you know, and we're still here.

1673
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:54,320
And you know, we and our guests are phenomenal who come on.

1674
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:58,360
And that, I think, helps people as well as you have that vulnerability.

1675
01:36:58,360 --> 01:36:59,360
Yeah, absolutely.

1676
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:01,760
Well, just one more quick question before we wrap up.

1677
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:05,880
So I know we're mindful of your time when it comes to barriers to entry.

1678
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:08,160
One big one is simply even touched on insurance.

1679
01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:10,560
You know, the cost of a mental health counselor.

1680
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:12,720
A lot of these people are out of network.

1681
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,500
It's like one hundred and fifty dollars a session.

1682
01:37:15,500 --> 01:37:19,320
How are you addressing that issue?

1683
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:20,320
So go ahead.

1684
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:22,120
Do you want to start a little bit?

1685
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:23,800
So there's a couple of different things.

1686
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:28,680
Number one, we got to remember that not all frontline workers have insurance.

1687
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:29,680
I know, right.

1688
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:30,680
By the way.

1689
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:31,680
Right, right, right.

1690
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:37,680
So if you don't have insurance and you are a volunteer sheriff up north Michigan and

1691
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:43,880
your primary job is in the whatever industry up there, you might not have the insurance

1692
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:44,880
that covers this.

1693
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:46,280
Oh, but I'm a frontline worker.

1694
01:37:46,280 --> 01:37:47,280
Yeah, you're a volunteer.

1695
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:50,760
So you're still a frontline worker, but you don't have the means to access it.

1696
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,200
Now you get somebody like me who's got the thirty dollar copay because I got great insurance

1697
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:56,600
and I found somebody in network.

1698
01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:58,680
Thirty bucks still adds up once a week.

1699
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:01,760
And let's say somebody else in my family needs it, too.

1700
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:02,760
It gets real expensive.

1701
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,880
So one of the things they're doing through Wayne Health is they're covering the copays

1702
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:08,680
for you through the grant funding.

1703
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:13,480
So now I can go to a very good culturally competent clinician that's from the system

1704
01:38:13,480 --> 01:38:17,080
that we're working with and go to them and eliminate the copay.

1705
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:18,120
Fantastic.

1706
01:38:18,120 --> 01:38:20,200
And then there's a couple other options.

1707
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:28,960
So there's also certain peer teams throughout the state that have started their own 501C3s

1708
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:35,000
and get donations and their peer teams will actually help pay for people to go to treatment.

1709
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:39,120
They do fundraisers, have a bank account, and that's what that bank account is for,

1710
01:38:39,120 --> 01:38:43,960
is to help first responders go to treatment.

1711
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:48,800
And then one of the other things, you know, I've been a huge proponent is a lot of other

1712
01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:53,840
states have it is a mental health presumption bill where, you know, we have in Michigan,

1713
01:38:53,840 --> 01:38:57,500
we have a cancer presumption bill that says, hey, guess what?

1714
01:38:57,500 --> 01:38:59,040
If you're a first responder, guess what?

1715
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:00,580
You're probably going to get cancer.

1716
01:39:00,580 --> 01:39:03,420
So we're going to pay for your treatment.

1717
01:39:03,420 --> 01:39:08,840
We know sleep deprivation, the schedule, the trauma, the whatever it may be.

1718
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:14,680
None of us leave this this career how we walked into it because of these things.

1719
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:20,640
And why isn't our mental health covered by I don't care what insurance, if you don't

1720
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:23,640
have insurance, I don't give a shit either way.

1721
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:25,400
Why isn't this stuff covered?

1722
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:26,440
We're covering cancer.

1723
01:39:26,440 --> 01:39:27,960
We know cancer is killing people.

1724
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:30,160
Well, so is our mental health stuff.

1725
01:39:30,160 --> 01:39:35,240
So that's one thing I would before I before I leave this earth, I would love to see a

1726
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:39,080
mental health presumption bill here in Michigan that just covers it.

1727
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:45,520
So no first responder, whether it be volunteer, part time, career, whatever it may be, has

1728
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:50,920
no worries on whether, you know, I'm going to go to therapy this week or do I am I going

1729
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:51,920
to buy groceries?

1730
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:53,920
Yeah, because to me, that's atrocious.

1731
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:55,480
Yeah, everything's getting expensive.

1732
01:39:55,480 --> 01:39:56,480
Yeah.

1733
01:39:56,480 --> 01:40:00,760
Well, like I've said to my military, you know, guests, we don't have a VA for the first responders.

1734
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:05,840
So when I worked out after 14 years to just try and, you know, help the fire service,

1735
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:07,080
you know, I don't get any benefits.

1736
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:08,080
I don't have health insurance.

1737
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:10,400
I have nothing, you know, and I'm a self employed.

1738
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:13,080
So I don't know if anyone's self employed at that trying to get health insurance.

1739
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,240
It's like you're not going to be able to afford it.

1740
01:40:15,240 --> 01:40:16,840
Yeah, you know, and that's fine.

1741
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:19,000
That's not, you know, I'm I'm absolutely fine.

1742
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:23,480
But it shows just, you know, if I was struggling and I needed to go see someone, it would be

1743
01:40:23,480 --> 01:40:25,200
hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

1744
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:29,040
And even sadly, with the presumption laws, the number of horror stories I've heard, which

1745
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:33,600
has been illustrated by this whole health care conversation has happened after that

1746
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:39,520
murder, but people, you know, friends of mine have literally heard insurance companies say,

1747
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,320
well, we're just going to fight it till they die anyway.

1748
01:40:42,320 --> 01:40:45,960
So even when there's a presumption law in place doesn't mean that that person is actually

1749
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:46,960
going to get the help.

1750
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:47,960
Yeah, right.

1751
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:48,960
Yeah.

1752
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:52,280
And really, the insurance companies, if they took care of it, they would be they would

1753
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:53,760
be dishing out less money.

1754
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:54,760
Yeah.

1755
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:56,480
You know, it's a cost saver.

1756
01:40:56,480 --> 01:40:59,600
But they would have to look at that over time over multiple careers of people.

1757
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,120
They don't get to show their quarterly earnings to their boss to get their raise.

1758
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:05,080
So we don't we don't get the big health change.

1759
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:07,840
We get these quarterly increments that don't actually help anything.

1760
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:08,840
Yeah.

1761
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:09,840
Yeah.

1762
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:12,800
And I think the other thing that makes us a little bit different is that when we work

1763
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:19,280
with culturally competent clinicians throughout the state, we can't like the program can't

1764
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:22,000
actually pay the clinicians to work with our first responders.

1765
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,080
We're trying to figure out better ways to make this happen.

1766
01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:28,520
But we have agreements with them where they can help to reduce the costs.

1767
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:34,160
So if they're like, hey, I don't take this person's insurance, but I can charge this

1768
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:38,280
person fifteen fifteen dollars for a forty five session, a forty five minute session

1769
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:41,080
versus the one hundred and fifty dollars or something like that.

1770
01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:45,720
We have a lot of we work with a lot of different clinicians and clinics that can give us kind

1771
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:47,920
of those those spaces.

1772
01:41:47,920 --> 01:41:49,760
But it's not enough.

1773
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:50,760
It's not nearly enough.

1774
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:57,120
And so our goal is going to be to continue to train people who want to do this work and

1775
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:00,480
who love it so much that they would do it for free if they could.

1776
01:42:00,480 --> 01:42:07,040
And so this is our goal is to is to make our state healthy and eventually our country.

1777
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:08,040
Beautiful.

1778
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,280
Well, I think what you're doing in Michigan is amazing.

1779
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:13,860
It's been such an amazing conversation for people listening.

1780
01:42:13,860 --> 01:42:17,800
Where are the best places to find the podcast and Frontline Strong together?

1781
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,600
How's the podcast?

1782
01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:24,560
FST5.org will get you to the website.

1783
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:26,000
It's an amazing resource.

1784
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:27,320
I had nothing to do with it.

1785
01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:28,320
Neither did Mike.

1786
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:32,300
Manisha and her team took care of this website, did an amazing job.

1787
01:42:32,300 --> 01:42:38,480
And then also look up Mines on the Frontline on YouTube or any other podcast platform.

1788
01:42:38,480 --> 01:42:39,960
We do a full video podcast.

1789
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:41,860
We put it on YouTube weekly.

1790
01:42:41,860 --> 01:42:43,860
We do clips every day.

1791
01:42:43,860 --> 01:42:48,520
We like to do one piece of content every single day where we do a clip from our podcast.

1792
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:50,160
That's 30 to 60 seconds long.

1793
01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:52,040
So please check our stuff out.

1794
01:42:52,040 --> 01:42:53,040
It's great.

1795
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:54,040
We're on Facebook.

1796
01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:57,040
It's Instagram, you can check us out anywhere there.

1797
01:42:57,040 --> 01:42:58,800
That's where we post our clips every day.

1798
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:01,120
You can get full episodes on YouTube.

1799
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:06,680
YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, anywhere you get podcasts.

1800
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:08,040
Check out the one with James Gearing in it.

1801
01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:09,040
He's pretty good.

1802
01:43:09,040 --> 01:43:10,040
That's a pretty good episode.

1803
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:11,040
Thank you for having us.

1804
01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:12,040
This has been great.

1805
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:16,240
Yeah, I want to thank you so much.

1806
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:20,120
I mean, not only just hearing your stories and your kind of call to service and all the

1807
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:24,920
different hats that you're wearing, but again, being thought leaders in the formation of

1808
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:29,520
this, hopefully this will be a blueprint that other states will look at and start applying

1809
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:34,360
as well because as we've touched on in so many different veins, our first responders

1810
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:35,960
are phenomenal human beings.

1811
01:43:35,960 --> 01:43:38,220
Their families are phenomenal human beings.

1812
01:43:38,220 --> 01:43:40,600
So we owe it to them to turn it around.

1813
01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:45,040
And I think with this lens on our community at the moment with all the incredible things

1814
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:50,880
they're doing out in North Carolina and now California, I think that the public eye is

1815
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:55,600
there and this is the time for us to really kind of educate them on the deficits and then

1816
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:56,700
what needs to change.

1817
01:43:56,700 --> 01:44:00,880
So I want to thank you all so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1818
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:03,600
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1819
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:06,080
Thanks for having us and thanks for what you've been doing for years.

1820
01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:08,280
Yeah, stay on the gas.

1821
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:09,280
People are listening.

1822
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:20,040
Stay on the gas.