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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impressed me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library.

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So you, the personal trainer does not have to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career.

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Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.

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Now if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder.com and I'll spell that to you because it's not as

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you think.

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T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show, law enforcement officer, military aviator and one of the HeloTAC team, Drew

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Nicoletti.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into law enforcement,

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entering the military as a pilot, flying helicopters, transitioning to law enforcement aviation,

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teaching aviators, fast roping, special operations and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find and this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Drew Nicoletti.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Drew, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Patrick Burroughs for connecting us and I still need

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to get him on the show one day and secondly to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield

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podcast today.

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Well, thank you very much.

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It's a real honor to be here and you know, nailing down Pat's difficult to do, but if

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you can, he would be phenomenal.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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That's the beautiful thing about guests on this show.

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I always say when the time is right, you know, the worst time to come on is when it's not

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the right time, you know, because then you're just not going to be able to relax and have

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a good interview.

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You know, some people that means retiring first so they can speak freely about how they

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truly feel.

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So, all right, well, very first question, where on planet earth are we finding you this

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afternoon?

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My wife and I, we live in Stuart, Florida.

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So it's about maybe half an hour north of West Palm Beach and we live here with our

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three daughters.

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Beautiful.

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Yeah, it's a beautiful town.

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It's kind of one of the smaller towns in South Florida still.

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So let's start the very beginning of your actual journey then.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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So I was born in West Palm Beach in 1985.

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My dad was an attorney in town and my mom was a physical therapist and I've got one

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older brother, he's 14 years older than me.

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And I grew up basically, we had a lake behind our house and I grew up just like being outdoors.

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My brother kind of instilled that in me at a young age.

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We were constantly fishing, just whatever.

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If there was a board that could float, we were on it in the backyard.

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As growing up, the most iconic memories that I can remember are always just kind of hanging

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out with my brother and his friends and they were obviously much older than me.

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So I was kind of like the play kid who had to always come around with his big brother

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and probably got me into things that I probably shouldn't have when I was a little kid, jumping

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off of stuff that I have no business jumping off of.

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Otherwise, my brother was a great influence on me when I was a little kid.

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Very good kids, we didn't get into anything too bad or anything like that.

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We were just kind of a normal, fun childhood.

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I played sports, I played baseball, soccer, started getting into swimming a little later

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and we obviously did all the water sports, kneeboarding, wakeboarding, we called it skurfing

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back in the day with the surfboard, they didn't have wakeboards.

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It was a blast.

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I really enjoyed my childhood.

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My parents, they were older when they had me obviously, my brother is 14 years older,

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so they were establishing their careers.

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So I kind of grew up to grow up very independently and it kind of worked out later in life because

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I found a lot of the things that maybe my peers were gravitating towards.

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I had already kind of like looked at something, especially as my brother being older, I looked

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at whether that was drugs or alcohol or just getting into trouble.

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We had looked at that and said like, no, I'm not going to do that.

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That wasn't for me, so I always cleared clear of that anyway, just naturally.

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Being able to make those decisions of my own early in life kind of led me to a place where

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I feel like I had a really productive, healthy childhood.

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Being in the water in Florida, knowing the types of species that live beneath the surface,

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did you have any near-gator experience?

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I had one near-gator experience.

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We had a lake behind our house and then we had a canal in front of our house.

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There was only our house on the road and the other side was just grass in the canal.

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In the lake, we very rarely had alligators.

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The story I always heard when I was a kid is there was a guy that would go around and

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scoop them out and trap them and then get them out.

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I think I only saw a gator in there like twice, but on the canal side, there were a lot of

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gators.

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You'd be fishing and you'd look down and you'd just see a tail through the murky water and

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you'd realize you're two feet from a gator.

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Gators are just kind of a part of life down here.

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The cottonmouths, those are the ones that you want to steer clear of.

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You can sneak up on those pretty quick and if they're on a nest, they can be pretty aggressive.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It's so weird because I came from England, obviously there's nothing really that can

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hurt you as far as animals lives in England.

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You move to Florida and you're like, oh shit, almost everything here can hurt you.

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The spiders, the snakes, the gators.

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But then you see some of the born and bled Faridian videos like the guy on the golf course

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and the gator tried to take his dog and he was punching it with a cigar in his mouth.

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I just saw another one of a guy eating one with a skillet in his backyard.

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These are the people that have grown up around these beasts that yeah, they respect them

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but they're not terrified of them.

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Yeah, it is definitely kind of a fact of life.

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There's constantly snakes around and my wife to this day hates lizards but my six-year-old

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will grab them and it's fun.

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It's a fun part of being here.

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I'm sure it'd be the same as if I was anywhere else and whatever they had there growing up

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would be normal.

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Not all of us are like Mike Kimmel, the python cowboy but it's pretty normal to just be around

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that kind of stuff.

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Absolutely.

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Well, you mentioned first your dad being an attorney.

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What area of law did he practice?

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He practiced family law.

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He did mostly wills and adoptions so he wasn't a ruthless, cutthroat type of attorney but

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then he also did government law.

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He started basically doing like local government.

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He started as a city attorney and then grew into a city manager.

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He started as a city manager, went to law school when I was a kid and then turned into

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a city attorney.

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He started his own law firm and then he would do like magistrate work on the side so he

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would be like a city attorney for a small municipality.

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I kind of grew up going to these meetings and my baseball schedule would revolve around

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when the council meetings were.

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He would drop me off at baseball practice, walk over to city hall and then walk back

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or I'd get done early and I'd end up sitting in some of his meetings.

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It was always funny.

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The joke was like he was a different person when he was there.

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He's very empathetic but at the same time like what's the rule of the law?

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Sorry.

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It's okay.

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I'm a German shepherd who's crazy.

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I got one literally about eight feet from me now so no problem.

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I was actually just telling someone about the podcast and they're asking about editing.

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I'm like no, this is two real normal human beings having a conversation.

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Doorbells will go off and dogs will bark and pee breaks will need to be taken.

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That's just how it works.

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This isn't the BBC.

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You mentioned about your dad working with adoptions.

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There's some beautiful, beautiful videos out there on social media about some of these,

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either the child giving the parent the letter that they've adopted them or vice versa.

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Did he ever relay some powerful moments he was a part of?

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Yeah.

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I didn't ever get to see that side but later in life I'd ask him and he would always say

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that that was always by far the most rewarding part of his job.

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He still keeps in touch with a couple of families.

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He's 78.

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He's been out of law practice for a while.

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He still has a couple of clients and does some municipality work on the side but he

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still keeps in touch with those people.

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I think one of the girls that he helped in process the adoption now, she's probably like

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my age.

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She might be just coming up to 40.

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He's done a lot in his life but I think that that's probably one of the more powerful things

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that he's done.

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I think that he would find that to be as well.

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Yeah.

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I've heard a lot of stories where the adoptive family were incredible.

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We've heard the horror stories too, of course.

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We know about those but some of these children, they were born into a circumstance where the

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parents weren't able to get themselves back to where they should be.

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Two other humans and other family stepped in and became that parent if it's the sibling

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of their partner or whether it's actually a complete family.

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This is what we need.

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If we were tribal, the entire village would help raise these children.

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I think that's what we got to refine, is that community.

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I couldn't agree more.

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I think the community and I think that most people would agree that people in general

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are good.

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It's difficult when a few bad apples contain everything and change a whole culture's viewpoint

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towards that.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You mentioned as well your mom was a PT.

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What kind of people was she working with?

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Was it a sporting world?

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Was it kind of geriatrics?

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It was a little bit of both.

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She treated everything from ballerinas to older people who had strokes.

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That was kind of her specialty.

233
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,560
She really enjoyed that.

234
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:04,160
She would bring people back from having full blown strokes to where they were basically

235
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,040
immobile to slowly progressing them.

236
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,160
I grew up going to her office.

237
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,440
I went to a middle school and we call it magnet schools here.

238
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:22,000
They basically try and entice kids to come there from other school districts through

239
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,200
programs.

240
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,000
It was very close to her office, which was downtown.

241
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,080
My mom and my dad had offices right next to each other.

242
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,920
My mom had a physical therapist office and my dad's law firm was right next door in an

243
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:34,920
old house.

244
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,880
I used to just bounce back and forth.

245
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:45,400
I spent a lot of time in her office and seeing you would be like 10 walking around a PT's

246
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:53,120
office and everyone's out sitting on a bouncy ball or working small weights and you're talking

247
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:54,120
to them.

248
00:16:54,120 --> 00:17:00,360
It was really interesting but seeing that progression too over and over again and seeing

249
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:07,080
how the body can heal and seeing how without medicine but just the right whether that's

250
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:12,360
heat or cold or just the right mobility.

251
00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:18,480
It was an interesting way to perceive that young in life where medicine really wasn't

252
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,200
that much to do with all the healing that I was seeing.

253
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,720
It was mostly just kind of, hey, move your body this way and keep stretching and working

254
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:29,720
it out.

255
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,400
That was pretty interesting.

256
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,520
I try and take a lot of those lessons with me to this day.

257
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,760
It's amazing the environment that you grew up in.

258
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,600
I grew up in the son of a veterinary surgeon.

259
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,720
My dad, his specialty was horses but he had a small animal clinic as well.

260
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,040
I was immersed in veterinary surgery and sadly euthanasia and all kinds of things.

261
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:56,600
I reflect back now and think about how many of those factored into my career later.

262
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,880
You do get a very powerful perspective when you're a child.

263
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:05,720
I think even that view that you got from your mother, the body's innate ability to heal

264
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,480
itself, that is a conversation that is suppressed in modern day.

265
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,960
Don't you dare say that diabetes can be reversed with nutrition.

266
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,000
Don't you tell me that your back injury can be healed with movement but it can.

267
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:23,480
It's so sad that there's so much kind of greed behind poo-pooing the body's natural ability

268
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:24,480
to heal.

269
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:33,960
Yeah, but I couldn't agree more, I mean being a pilot, everyone says you trade in your cruiser

270
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:39,840
or your Humvee for a lower back problem and blue skies because it's constant.

271
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:46,760
My neck and back are always in this weird balancing act where I have to focus and then

272
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,320
I neglected for a little bit and then I have to refocus.

273
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:59,600
So yeah, I think the body's probably one of the most powerful things, one of God's best

274
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:07,480
creations and he's given us the tools to be able to fix those things and I think it just

275
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,000
gets suppressed through culture and it shouldn't be.

276
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,000
Absolutely.

277
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,400
Have you ever heard of the, I think it's the Iron Neck, have I got that right?

278
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,040
Yeah, we have one at the Hangar.

279
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,160
A couple guys have used it but currently I think it's just hanging up in our gym but

280
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,640
yeah, it's pretty aggressive.

281
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:35,440
All the guys who have used it are like, oh man, that was a hard workout but yeah, I'm

282
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,680
not quite there yet.

283
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,000
My neck's still a little fragile.

284
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,680
Well, I think you can taper it down if I'm not mistaken.

285
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,000
There's certainly levels to it and you can literally just add a bit of tension and just

286
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,400
move left and right but I've got a friend, Dave Prashera Best and he had terrible neck

287
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,800
problems and he said that that was one of the things that's definitely helped him because

288
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,640
of, I mean, you guys have the helmet with the nods so a lot of weight on your head for

289
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:58,640
a long time.

290
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,880
Yeah, we've, I mean, recently we've actually been doing a lot of research into lighter

291
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,480
helmets and counterweights and trying to work out the fulcrum of putting your goggles up

292
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:17,000
and then I'm sure like the same with operators on the ground.

293
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,560
Once they're up, it's so much further forward and so much more weight on your neck and it's

294
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:29,840
just for so much skill in both an operator and a pilot to be kind of eliminated due to

295
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,200
a significant neck issue.

296
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,680
It's like, it seems kind of silly like we should probably be able to work this out.

297
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,800
So yeah, I think the Iron Neck's definitely, I mean, as far as I know, it's one of the

298
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:46,200
only products specifically designed to actually, you know, kind of work that out and work that

299
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,200
problem so.

300
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,200
Yeah, absolutely.

301
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:54,720
Yeah, I come from a profession where they still wear a hat that's designed in the 1930s

302
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,560
and they refuse to deviate from it.

303
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,120
So headwear progression is not exactly a popular topic in the fire service.

304
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,800
But anyway, I digress.

305
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:09,100
So speaking of career aspirations, you have, you know, a PT and a lawyer and your family

306
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:15,920
at that point, what were you thinking of becoming when you were in the school age?

307
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:21,720
So my father was also in the reserves, so he wasn't active duty, but he was in the reserves

308
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:28,080
as a JAG and our house was like a mile and a half from the reserve center.

309
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,720
So we spent a lot of time there anyway.

310
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,640
And I always kind of wanted to go into the military, but the human body, I think probably

311
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,120
because my mom's influence was always very interesting to me.

312
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:46,800
So I thought I wanted to be a doctor and definitely wanted to kind of pursue that.

313
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,680
My grandfather was a surgeon and I kind of just kind of grew up with that notion, like,

314
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,680
oh, that's what I want to do.

315
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:04,520
And then a helicopter came and landed at my dad's reserve facility one day in old Huey.

316
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,440
And that basically changed that whole route for me.

317
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:13,440
I even went into high school and I was like, oh, you know, I'll still kind of dabble with

318
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:19,600
medicine, but then it also had a junior ROTC program.

319
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,720
And then I just flipped the whole script and decided that's what I wanted to do and really

320
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,880
commit.

321
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,240
So once I did, I mean, like I can remember vividly, like sitting in the cockpit of that

322
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,480
thing and just being like, I just saw this thing land.

323
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,640
I have no idea what it's capable of, but I really want to find out.

324
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:43,680
And my dad took me on another helicopter ride, I'm sure very innocently when I was a kid

325
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,760
in Orlando for like five minutes.

326
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,040
And well, little did he know it was going to cause him a lot of cash later when he was

327
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,040
paying for flight school.

328
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,440
But it was a pretty influential moment of my life.

329
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:02,000
And I just remember being up there and like, you feel the vibration of the helicopter and

330
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,440
you look around and there's no wings and you're just like, man, this is wild.

331
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:12,160
Like I'm just up here and you can see forever and you come down and everything gets real

332
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,080
close all of a sudden, the guy decels and you're on the ground.

333
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,640
You're like, that was just, it was such an incredible, profound experience for me that

334
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,680
I just never, I could never get past it.

335
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,720
And then I went to flight school when I was in high school.

336
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,800
My dad paid for me to go to a local flight school here in Lantana.

337
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:43,040
And I was flying fixed wing planes, learning how to fly in 172s and that was it.

338
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,040
I was hooked, man.

339
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,680
That was once you feel it.

340
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,680
I think a lot of people kind of make a determination pretty quick, like, hey, this is something

341
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,280
I want to do or this is something I'm going to pass on.

342
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:03,440
I find it rare to find like one hobbyist pilot who either is like, oh, I just do this for

343
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,720
work or they're always the guy who like says like, I just wish I could dedicate all my

344
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,400
time to this, but I can't because of whatever reason.

345
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,880
But I don't know.

346
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,040
It's definitely got me.

347
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,040
That's for sure.

348
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,440
I'm sure Pat told you about this when we were on 7X, when we went around the world, when

349
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,840
we got to Cairo and I'd never been on a helicopter before.

350
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,760
I'd done all kinds of stuff in the fire service, in the stunt world, but never actually been

351
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,920
on a helicopter specifically.

352
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,360
And so we end up being told that we're going to get to go skydiving over the pyramids,

353
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,840
but it's in this old Russian helicopter.

354
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,000
And it was cool as hell because while we were waiting for our turn, this guy was buzzing

355
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,320
us right by the pyramids and then cutting up.

356
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,840
But yeah, so I have been on a helicopter once, but I was strapped to a Polish dude and we

357
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,240
flung ourselves out.

358
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,280
That's my only helicopter experience at this point.

359
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,520
Yeah, Pat has told me that story.

360
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,160
I've seen the tattoos to prove it.

361
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,920
I never got one of those.

362
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:04,920
I was watching them.

363
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:05,920
They're like, oh, this is a really good idea.

364
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,680
I'm like, you guys knock yourself out.

365
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,680
Yeah.

366
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,680
All right.

367
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:17,240
Well then, moving on, walk me through that kind of early time as a pilot and then educate

368
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,080
me on the kind of parallel journey in law enforcement as well.

369
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,480
So I got my license when I was 17.

370
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,680
I had just turned 17.

371
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,800
It was before I went to college.

372
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,520
So my birthday is in June, so I'm always like the youngest guy in my class.

373
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,840
So I went to college, flew for fun.

374
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:45,680
I went to a military college in South Carolina and flew basically on the weekends.

375
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,200
My dad was like, hey, you did this.

376
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,640
Now you have to maintain it.

377
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,840
So I was like, all right.

378
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,120
So twist my arm, dad.

379
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,120
Fly around Charleston.

380
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:56,400
So that was a lot of fun.

381
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:04,440
And so I would go on the weekends and I take friends up and I actually started, I should

382
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,040
re-energize probably, the Aero Club at the college.

383
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:14,680
And it's funny, I was going through my yearbook with my daughters the other day and we looked

384
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,340
at the picture of the Aero Club and one of the guys standing next to me is currently

385
00:26:19,340 --> 00:26:26,360
a blue angel and one of the guys on the other side was a thunderbird like four years ago.

386
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,360
And it's like, man, crazy.

387
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:34,680
Like just, you know, that kind of goes back to my mom's lesson was always you are who

388
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,220
you surround yourself with.

389
00:26:36,220 --> 00:26:40,480
Like you always surround yourself with strong people and you know, you'll continue to be

390
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,480
a strong person.

391
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,480
And that was, it's just funny I always gravitated towards people like that.

392
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,480
So I did that.

393
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:53,640
I did, obviously I graduated college and then I was looking for a job.

394
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,360
I thought I was going to go into the Marine Corps.

395
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:03,080
I wanted to be a pilot in the Marines and second semester, senior year, I took like

396
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,200
a chance to maybe take the Army Flight App II test.

397
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,200
I did.

398
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,040
I did well on it and the guy said, hey, if you go find a guard unit, you can guarantee

399
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,040
aviation.

400
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,840
At the time they weren't guaranteeing aviation for anybody.

401
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,440
And so I said, okay.

402
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,880
So I did that.

403
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,400
Got into a guard unit.

404
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,520
Meanwhile, everyone who graduated that year got aviation who wanted it.

405
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,920
It was like gates were wide open.

406
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:35,200
So anyway, got into a guard unit, thought I was going to fly Apaches.

407
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,160
Didn't end up flying Apaches.

408
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Turns out they just changed over to a general aviation support battalion.

409
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,160
So I was flying Blackhawks and I actually didn't get to go to flight school for like

410
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,160
two years.

411
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,800
I thought I was going to have to become like an MP or something.

412
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,920
And I was kind of at this weird spot where I needed a job on the civilian side waiting

413
00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,480
for the guard to either pick me up or kick me out or do something if they couldn't send

414
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,680
me to flight school on time.

415
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840
And I just fell into being a cop.

416
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,320
Like I was like, hey, I just want to do something that's going to be fun and where I can affect

417
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:16,320
some good and still kind of serve, but also that will afford me opportunities to do fun

418
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,640
things and not be behind a desk.

419
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,280
And that was 2007?

420
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,500
That was 2007.

421
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:27,880
So I asked a lot of firefighters this, but I haven't asked many cops.

422
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,760
How competitive was it back then to be a law enforcement officer?

423
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,920
I was sponsored.

424
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,040
So I was sponsored by the agency that hired me and they sent me through the academy and

425
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,180
I was getting paid a full salary while at the academy.

426
00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:51,040
So I think like 2007 was actually a really good time to become a law enforcement officer.

427
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:58,520
I think that like after that, for whatever reason, it really started to kind of becoming

428
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,760
much more difficult.

429
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,200
But I will say though, like the standards were tough.

430
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,280
Like there was a very rigorous physical program.

431
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,040
Passing the state exam was difficult.

432
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,520
It seemed like they were taking higher caliber people to do that job then and they were paying

433
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,200
also to compensate you for that.

434
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,960
So it was a great combo to kind of get into.

435
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,560
And then once I started doing it, I really enjoyed it.

436
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:40,280
It was, you know, there's definitely tough parts to it, but if you can kind of put those

437
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,280
aside and focus on the good things that you do, you know, getting cussed out by people

438
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,880
is not fun for no reason.

439
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,840
But you know, finding a small child who's lost from their parents is extremely rewarding,

440
00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:01,280
you know, or capturing a suspect who just committed domestic violence is extremely rewarding.

441
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,880
So you know, those things all kind of combined together.

442
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,440
And then as soon as I started to really like it, the army called and said, hey, you're

443
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,440
going to flight school.

444
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,440
I was like, oh, okay, cool.

445
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,960
So now I'm going to do that.

446
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,920
So I ended up doing that.

447
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:26,200
I went to Fort Rucker at the time for, it was like 18 months.

448
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:32,080
And then my guard unit called me like right before graduation, we're like, hey, as soon

449
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,920
as you graduate, you're going to come home for a week and then you're going to go right

450
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,920
back.

451
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,200
You have to do the mic model transition for the newest Blackhawk because that's what we

452
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,640
have and then you're deploying as soon as you get back from that.

453
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,360
And I was like, oh, wow, sweet.

454
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:52,520
So we, I went back, I went back for like, I think it was like two months, maybe six weeks

455
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:59,960
and then came home for like a month and then deployed to Iraq on my first tour.

456
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:06,600
Well going back to the US before we go overseas, you mentioned about having this, you know,

457
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:13,400
very kind of loving environment as you grew up, you know, playing outside and in the water.

458
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,400
A lot of us, I think, like I said, you're talking to a guy that grew up on a farm in

459
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,400
England.

460
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,040
It was quite jarring when I became a firefighter and saw behind the curtain of society, some

461
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,960
of the areas that most people are oblivious to.

462
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,520
Were there any kind of jarring moments for you while you were wearing law enforcement

463
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,240
at that time for this young man that was arguably raised in a safe environment?

464
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:40,560
Yeah, I mean, I would say I was raised in a safe environment, but I went to Roosevelt

465
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:46,640
Middle School, which is like in probably one of the toughest parts of town.

466
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:54,760
So you know, I was the minority and everyone else was all these different races and there's

467
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,240
a huge kind of clash, even at the middle school level.

468
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,480
You know, it's a tough part of town.

469
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,840
There's a lot of drugs there.

470
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,640
There's a lot of crime and I was the outsider.

471
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:14,080
So that same time of growing up independently, you know, at home, my home life was quite

472
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:20,320
good and I could always like bounce ideas off my brother and stuff, but there were definitely

473
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,320
you know fights.

474
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,920
There were definitely you still have to grow up tough.

475
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:31,120
You couldn't grow up kind of, you know, it wasn't all, you know, nice paintings and daffodils.

476
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:44,040
It was definitely an environment that forced you to step up and you know, handle yourself,

477
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:50,440
deal with bullies, deal with you know, kind of just a rough environment.

478
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:56,520
And then I went to Lake Worth High School, which was like even more diverse and even

479
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,040
more clashing and now you're high school level to where you know, people are driving cars

480
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:10,840
and there's higher access to drugs and it was you know, it was kind of just a foreign

481
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,400
environment at the time, but you learn how to navigate it and you learn that street smart

482
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,400
side.

483
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:26,560
So you know, when I was a new cop, it wasn't that jarring and I wasn't in like a spot that

484
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,160
had a ridiculous amount of crime.

485
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,080
I remember the first time that I found a McCormick bottle underneath the seat of a car and it

486
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,920
was completely full of crack and I didn't know like a big one.

487
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:46,000
But when you see like the you know, garlic and I look at it and I was like, what is this?

488
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,760
And I look at my partner and my partner looks at me and he goes, oh man, that's crack.

489
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,680
And I was like, oh, like that was like pretty shocking.

490
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,400
I was like, man, I'd never seen this much drugs in my life.

491
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,400
This is crazy.

492
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,400
Thank God I didn't put it on my lunch.

493
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,840
Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh.

494
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,040
And you know, but then it was also on the coast.

495
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,640
So you know, you get boats that come across with huge bales of drugs and you're like,

496
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:09,640
wow, okay.

497
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,000
Like this isn't, it's not just on Miami Vice.

498
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,640
Like this is how this looks.

499
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,240
This is exactly what we're talking about.

500
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:23,080
So but yeah, I mean, it wasn't anything too dramatic.

501
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:29,080
I would say that my response to it too after my first tour was much different than my response

502
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,460
to it before I had left.

503
00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:38,880
Like I was much more like kind of in the zone as far as like, hey, this, I'm going to have

504
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,880
to deal with this, you know, as a new cop.

505
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:48,720
And then when I got back from my tour, my first tour, I think I just had a lot going

506
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:52,920
on like personally and mentally and I didn't handle it well.

507
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,760
And it probably took a solid like two years after getting back from that to kind of like

508
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,920
center my Chi and be back again.

509
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,520
What did that first tour look like through your eyes?

510
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:13,200
You know, it was, it's crazy because like you, you hear like, you know, people make

511
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:20,680
like funny jokes and like, Hey, when you're a new guy, like you go out and you whatever,

512
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,200
find a girl, find a car, you know, you, you try and enjoy yourself before you leave and

513
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,920
then you go off to war.

514
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:35,040
And I didn't really do that, but I certainly was scared and I can see why people do that.

515
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,400
So I thought for sure, like I wasn't going to survive.

516
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,920
So like my dad was in the army and he deployed to like, he deployed to places, but they weren't

517
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,240
combat.

518
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:50,280
And so like, he didn't know how to really kind of prep me for that.

519
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,960
And I didn't know how to prep me for that because nobody I knew had ever really been

520
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,660
in combat, not that I could talk to.

521
00:35:56,660 --> 00:36:02,760
So I had lost a couple of classmates already in the war on terror prior to going.

522
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,120
So I just kind of like assume like, Hey, you know, this is my duty.

523
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,160
I'm going to go, I'm probably not going to survive.

524
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,060
And here we go.

525
00:36:11,060 --> 00:36:14,920
And like, you know, the third day we get there, I was in a medevac team.

526
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,960
So it was only like 22 of us.

527
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,280
I started putting like sandbags on top of my chew and we were getting mortar all the

528
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,280
time.

529
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,040
We were at a Cobb Echo in D'Winnea and so like that was like, the story was like, Hey,

530
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,040
you're going to get mortared.

531
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,040
You're going to get rocketed here.

532
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,040
It's going to happen.

533
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,040
A lot of indirect fire.

534
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,720
You're not going to be able to do much about it.

535
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:38,720
So you know, know where the bunker is and be ready to go.

536
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,760
And so I started like putting sandbags on my chew and I was like, Hey, if like one hits

537
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,440
my chew, maybe it'll detonate on the sandbag and I'll still survive.

538
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,840
I'll be able to roll to the ground, whatever.

539
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,120
And then like day three, I'm in the shower.

540
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:56,720
I'm on medevac duty and nobody's in the shower chew, which is kind of strange.

541
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,760
Like you're by yourself and I was like, man, this is like crazy.

542
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:00,760
This is nice.

543
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,760
I'm going to enjoy this.

544
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,640
And I got my Crocs and like I come out and I got my little like towel.

545
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,320
I'm like squeak, squeak, squeak going around and it's a ghost town.

546
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,320
Nobody's anywhere.

547
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,800
And then I go into ops and squeak, squeak, squeak.

548
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,800
Nobody's in ops.

549
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:14,800
And I'm like, what the heck?

550
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,480
And I look in the bunker and everyone's in there and that was my first like IDF encounter.

551
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,240
Because they had gotten mortar walls in the shower.

552
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:22,760
I didn't even know it.

553
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,080
And then that was like a sobering experience.

554
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,200
I was like, oh, well, I guess it's really not that big of a deal.

555
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,400
And if it happens and I was in the shower, I would did anyway.

556
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,960
So like, I guess I'm just not going to worry about this.

557
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,520
And I just didn't from then on.

558
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,640
Like if I heard the siren, I would run, but like that was it.

559
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,200
Like I wasn't going to let it drive my day to day for a year.

560
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,000
That wasn't good.

561
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,000
So that was helpful.

562
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,720
That was a helpful experience.

563
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,160
So there's a two sided question I ask.

564
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:59,000
And obviously you've got a very unique perspective because you're looking through a pilot size.

565
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,520
The stories that we are told back home through our media, I would argue are very polarized.

566
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,320
You've got either the kill them all, let God sort them out rhetoric, or they're all baby

567
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:09,320
killers.

568
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,880
And in the middle are the real men and women that are out there fighting for our freedom

569
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,520
and the freedom of the people in that country.

570
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,800
The first of the two questions, was there a point where you saw atrocities, horrific

571
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,240
things where you realized, okay, yeah, there are some awful people that do need to be taken

572
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:31,160
care of?

573
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,800
I mean, absolutely.

574
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:41,520
We had Intel, there was a rocket team in town and they would constantly target us and they

575
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,240
were getting like really good and they were trained by, supposedly they were trained by

576
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:52,240
the Iranians and they launched 240, which is like a nine foot rocket and it went over

577
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:59,680
our base and hit just on the other side of the wall, a little like bodega with a little

578
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,600
coffee shop or whatever and it killed a bunch of people in town.

579
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:12,720
And so really poor setup for our base, but like all the houses could see down into the

580
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:13,720
base.

581
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,640
And the tea walls were not taller than the taller houses just on the other side.

582
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,520
So like you'd be running up in the morning and you'd see older gentlemen sipping tea

583
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,600
on the other side of the wall like staring at you, you're like, man, this guy comes up

584
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,960
with an RPG, like I'm dead.

585
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,320
And you kind of get used to that and then you realize like, hey, that guy's not trying

586
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,760
to kill me, he's just trying to live.

587
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:45,760
And that's kind of the majority I think of, especially Iraq in general, like now, I mean,

588
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,240
a lot of the population isn't trying to kill us or hate us.

589
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:59,000
But that scenario where the bad guys just kind of killed a bunch of people innocently

590
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,680
who were just trying to enjoy their dinner, like, yeah, obviously when they injure or

591
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:10,440
kill our guys, you know, I was medevac, I mean, that's all I did was try and take care

592
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:18,080
of our guys and try and get them to the highest level of care possible off of our little tiny

593
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,880
fob.

594
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:25,280
But yeah, I mean, I definitely see that.

595
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,920
I can definitely see that side and empathize with it.

596
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,360
Now what about the other side of the coin?

597
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,920
This is what we also don't usually hear, kindness and compassion in a battle zone.

598
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,440
When you reflect whether it was through your own men and women, whether it was the indigenous

599
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,480
population, what are moments of kindness and compassion that you remember?

600
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:51,880
It's always, you know, the innocence of children is what always kind of like snaps you back.

601
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,840
I think in any jobs, you know, you're flying around and little kids are like running and

602
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:03,400
waving and it's like, that's what my kids would do if they saw a helicopter flying over

603
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,160
right now, they would be running away and be like, this is amazing.

604
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:12,800
So I think that's always going to be, it doesn't really matter what culture, what civilization,

605
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:19,640
you know, when you see those acts of children just being innocent and enjoying life, that's

606
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:27,000
always going to snap you back to, hey, they're just people, you know, obviously we don't

607
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:32,480
want to get hurt and we want to catch the bad guys, but you know, there's so much compassion

608
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,320
for those separate cultures.

609
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,840
Like we're all just people at the end of the day.

610
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,640
And that's the best example you could possibly see.

611
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:42,640
Absolutely.

612
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:49,400
I've heard a lot of incredible stories by the amputee veterans that made it like Mark

613
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:55,200
Hornrod, for example, Royal Marine in the UK lost both legs and an arm and was left

614
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,000
for dead, not discarded.

615
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,880
They just figured he was dead.

616
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,600
And then someone noticed him, I think he just opened his eyes, he all took a breath.

617
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:03,800
It was something like that.

618
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,600
And then they were like, oh shit, this guy's alive.

619
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,540
And they worked him and he ended up surviving.

620
00:42:08,540 --> 00:42:13,160
What was some of the kind of medical miracle or traumatic miracles that you remember of

621
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:19,120
people that you assumed weren't going to make it that possibly you heard did?

622
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:32,600
Oh man, I would love to tell you that I remember that stuff and it turns out I don't.

623
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,120
You asking me, I don't remember.

624
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,560
I remember all the bad ones, but I don't remember a lot of the good ones.

625
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,640
And you don't hear it like you don't, you might hear back from like their CEO like,

626
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,600
hey, that guy made it.

627
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:55,400
And typically, it's like we flew a captain one day who was just having like a heart murmur

628
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:56,480
and we flew him out.

629
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,040
We had to like basically ask to medivac him like, hey, something's not right.

630
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,680
Doc was like, no, we'll medivac him in a couple of days.

631
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,640
And we're like, I don't know, I think we need to medivac him.

632
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,480
And the MRO approved it and we ended up flying and then he like died and route to Germany.

633
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,080
And it was like just some freak accident.

634
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:17,360
It was like stuff like that, you're like, man, that's so crazy.

635
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:27,480
Yeah, I mean, I wish I could tell you and I wish I was able to keep track of or the

636
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,880
government was better at, hey, like trying to keep people connected when it comes to

637
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:33,880
that kind of stuff.

638
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,840
But I looked back on the first, like literally looked over my shoulder on the first flight

639
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,840
and then I made a promise myself I wasn't going to do that anymore.

640
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,600
So I tried to focus mainly on just my instruments.

641
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:52,440
But you know, you get back and like your medic would always kind of give you like the skin.

642
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,320
You're like, hey, this is what happened.

643
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,400
You know, they didn't make it or they're going to make it.

644
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,960
They'll be fine.

645
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:08,800
So I think the not looking back thing is probably what saved my mind frame as much as possible.

646
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,600
Just kind of focusing on my instruments and making sure everything was good to go.

647
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,080
Just doing my job, kind of compartmentalizing.

648
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:21,320
I had a very grim reaper career as a paramedic, firefighter and a paramedic.

649
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,920
And it was just if someone went to a cardiac arrest, whether that was a medical issue,

650
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:32,320
whether it was, you know, a traumatic medical cardiac arrest, we only save a very small

651
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,320
amount.

652
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,040
But I was a firefighter for 14 years and had zero saves.

653
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,040
Even after I retired out, I had a cardiac arrest on a plane when I was in London on

654
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,960
the tarmac and worked that passenger and still nothing.

655
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:49,080
And this is I think the other side of it is we hear the Mark Hornrod stories, which is

656
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,240
amazing.

657
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,120
But for some crews, we don't save any of them.

658
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:54,880
And that is such a weight.

659
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,600
Now, of course, we make a difference pre-code or, you know, like you said, even the kindness

660
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,520
and compassion you get a kid that was, you know, if they didn't get to a hospital, they

661
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:04,520
were going to lose a leg.

662
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,640
And I'll be life threatening, but there's all these stories that we have too.

663
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,240
But that inability to save really is a very, very crushing weight for a lot of us because

664
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:16,920
we are taught if you do X, Y and Z, then the person will survive.

665
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,760
Yeah, I mean, that's that's like you're taught like, hey, that's your job.

666
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,800
Like this is this is the sole reason that you exist.

667
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,280
This is why you have a helicopter with a cross on it is so that you're supposed to get this

668
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,480
guy so that they can live.

669
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,680
And then you get there and you're like, oh, that's not that's not really how this works.

670
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:38,120
Yeah, you're there to give them a percentage and a chance and hopefully do it.

671
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,640
But that's not it's not guaranteed by any means.

672
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:48,160
And yeah, I mean, that first one was tough, you know, especially because it was frustrating

673
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,320
because we were in Iraq.

674
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,480
It was like it was 2011.

675
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,960
So we got there like in the beginning, 2011, and then we closed out the country supposedly,

676
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,320
you know, we closed out the country.

677
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,000
And it was just frustrating because like we felt like we were there to cover the guys

678
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,440
going outside of the wire to protect us who were inside of the wire from rockets.

679
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,680
And it was like nobody was really there weren't like a lot of missions going on.

680
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,080
And we're just like, you know, we could just leave.

681
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,080
But that would be cool.

682
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,640
We just leave and get out of here.

683
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,220
And none of us get hurt.

684
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:22,400
And how about that?

685
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,840
And that's and inevitably that's what we ended up doing.

686
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,200
And it was just delayed to a point where, you know, we didn't really need to.

687
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:37,200
And then yeah, you know, it was just tough.

688
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:38,680
And it was it was frustrating, I think.

689
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,800
And that that bled in a lot to, you know, you'd see people get injured.

690
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:44,800
You try and help them.

691
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,160
You know, they would survive or they wouldn't.

692
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,840
And then you kind of get back and you're like, what was that for?

693
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,320
And then you ask yourself that question.

694
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,520
And that's that good stuff.

695
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:59,240
That's what I've heard, especially, you know, as the podcast progressed with more and more

696
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:03,920
of our veterans, you know, you saw the way that the Afghanistan withdrawal happened.

697
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:09,060
You have now the questioning of supposedly what was in Iraq, why we went there, you know,

698
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:11,560
and it's it is important to pull that apart.

699
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,440
I mean, it's happened and it was unfolded the way that it happened.

700
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,480
But just like the pandemic, you can't just sweep it under the carpet and say, oh, let's

701
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:20,800
just not talk about that anymore.

702
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,840
You got to figure out, all right, what what went well and what didn't go well.

703
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:31,520
You know, how can we make sure that we don't send young Americans into a battle zone again

704
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,160
that maybe isn't going to progress the country in any way, shape or form?

705
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,360
Because every one of these people that's come on the show have absolutely made a difference

706
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,040
to people in these countries.

707
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,240
So they need to be proud of their service.

708
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,880
But the overall mission, you know, did they actually leave it much better than they found

709
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,880
it?

710
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,880
Do you have them feel no?

711
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,760
And like you said, that very term, what was that all for?

712
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,200
And you know, if you if it just cost you a few bucks and you got a couple of bruises,

713
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,240
that's one thing.

714
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,480
But if you have, you know, literally thousands of coffins coming back, draped in American

715
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,800
flags, then we do need to look at that and make sure it doesn't happen again.

716
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,160
And if we do have to go to war, it needs to be fully and fully supported.

717
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,480
But we need to all know why.

718
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:19,560
And it needs to be a real, real, you know, bona fide reason rather than I mean, I'll

719
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,480
say this from a layman's terms, but 9-11 happens and they're like, let's go to Iraq.

720
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Well, wait a second.

721
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:26,520
Haven't we got the wrong country?

722
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,040
I'm pretty sure that dude's hiding in Afghanistan, you know, and they're all but there's WMDs.

723
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:37,280
And, you know, so I think it's just it is important to acknowledge that feeling of almost

724
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,280
betrayal by some of our military members, because they were sold on a kind of vengeance

725
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,280
campaign in a way.

726
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:51,000
And a lot of as we are seeing now, when you peel back the layers, it wasn't, you know,

727
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,840
there's some questionable decisions of why some of our men and women were sent and how

728
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,400
long they were kept there.

729
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:04,880
Yeah, I think I mean, so I ended up going back in 1617 to Iraq.

730
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:10,080
And you know, when we were there, that was that was like right at the beginning of Missoula

731
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,800
and through Missoula.

732
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,800
And I was a headquarters company commander at the time.

733
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,360
So like, I had people, you know, that I was responsible for all over the country.

734
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,400
It was wild, like seven different sites.

735
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:29,680
So I was doing I was moonlighting as a medevac as a medevac air mission commander, and then

736
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:36,120
as an air assault pilot, just a regular PI, which was best job ever.

737
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:42,640
But you know, you go back and like, we had an interpreter at the brigade level, and,

738
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:48,160
and he hadn't seen his family in like, 14 years or 15 years, and then they lived in

739
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:49,680
town and he still hadn't seen him.

740
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:55,880
And then finally, at the end, we were able to get his family on base and his mom had

741
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,600
brought like a full feast.

742
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,840
It was unreal.

743
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:06,680
And when you watch that interaction, and you hear his stories, he was at Baghdad University,

744
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,600
and you would hear like his stories of the atrocities that were happening before, from

745
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,360
Saddam Hussein's sons and just the way that they were in the whole culture.

746
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:21,600
And he was like, No, like, I cannot thank you guys enough for coming in and removing

747
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:22,600
them.

748
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,040
You know, that was it was it was the scariest time of my life.

749
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,120
And you know, you'd be walking around and it's all of a sudden, guy would just shoot

750
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,360
somebody for no reason, just because he felt like it.

751
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:37,080
And when you tell that story, at least that brought that brought a little bit of like,

752
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,480
okay, at least, you know, hopefully we did a good thing.

753
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,200
It might not have been for the right reasons, or it might have been bad intel or whatever

754
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:48,160
you want to speculate or, you know, there's a million different things that I have no

755
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,560
control over what got me there.

756
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:56,360
But at least that that was helpful that that was kind of an eye open experience.

757
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:01,120
And I didn't necessarily been closure, but it at least made me feel like there was some

758
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,320
good that that came out of it.

759
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,640
You know, some sort of silver lining, I guess.

760
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:08,640
Absolutely.

761
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,840
Well, you mentioned the first time you came back about struggling with that transition.

762
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,480
So kind of walk me through flying on the law enforcement side.

763
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,880
And then and then what were some of the highs and lows for you emotionally as you progress

764
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:22,880
through?

765
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:31,960
Yeah, I came back and I was with I was with a girl prior to and then, you know, tales old

766
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:32,960
time.

767
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,440
She cheated on me when I was gone.

768
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:40,200
And just now looking back, it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

769
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,120
But at the time, it was it was pretty jarring.

770
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:53,320
So you know, that kind of sent me into a little bit of a frustrated state.

771
00:51:53,320 --> 00:52:00,800
And then knowing that people had died on my aircraft and that I wasn't able to do what

772
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,040
I was supposed to do for them and their families, that was jarring.

773
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:09,840
And then I went right back to being a road cop and, you know, interacting with people

774
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:18,440
who had no there was just they had no like sort of looking for like concept, like they

775
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,280
had no perception of like what was going on elsewhere in the world.

776
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,880
Like they were speeding through school zones and they were, you know, just doing all these

777
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:32,040
stupid things to each other that they didn't need to do that were hurtful.

778
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,600
And it was more of like just for selfish reasons.

779
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:40,160
Now, I know because I just saw people are literally fighting for their lives.

780
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:45,160
And that was like it was I should not have gone back as soon as I did.

781
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,520
I needed to probably take some time to process all that.

782
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:55,320
And without that perspective that I had in their place, you know, watching these civilians

783
00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:03,880
just go about their kind of naturally selfish lives was just I mean, irked me to my core.

784
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:09,800
And so my nephews, my brothers, two kids, they went to school in the town that I was

785
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,960
a police officer in.

786
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,520
And one day he calls me and he goes, hey man, you got to stop yelling at people in the school

787
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:16,520
zone.

788
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,040
And I was like, no, I was like that I didn't write him a ticket, but they need to know

789
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:22,040
to slow down.

790
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,760
He's like, dude, you got to chill it out.

791
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,800
And I was like and I kind of like I hung up the phone.

792
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,320
I was super pissed.

793
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:35,280
And then I was like maybe I shouldn't be so aggressive about this.

794
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,600
Maybe I should think about it a little more and have the perspective that they have like,

795
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,840
hey, I'm late for whatever.

796
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:47,480
And then there was like a motorcycle took off on me and you know, I turned my lights

797
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,880
off and usually when that happens and you don't have like a forceful felony, you turn

798
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,440
your lights off because they're just going to cause more damage than it is going to be

799
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,760
good if you capture them.

800
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:05,160
And then of course, you know, he wrecks and I get up and I pull up and he's got like a

801
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,360
severe compound fracture to his leg.

802
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:17,200
He's wedged underneath a guardrail and I start like treating him and on the radio, I didn't

803
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,720
at the time I thought I was being like cool, calm and collected and on the radio afterwards

804
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,560
when I listened to it, I was like, oh my god, I didn't recognize myself.

805
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,160
Like I was just totally out of body.

806
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:28,160
I wasn't calm.

807
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:29,160
I wasn't cool.

808
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:33,560
I was just like and then my captain came up to me after and he was like, hey, why don't

809
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,000
you just take it easy for the rest of the day?

810
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:36,000
And I was like, why?

811
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,000
What's wrong?

812
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,440
And then like, you know, you play it back afterwards and I just didn't handle that stressful

813
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,400
situation and that was kind of like the big culminating moment.

814
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,720
And then I was like, all right, I need to take a week of vacation.

815
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:49,760
I need to like really kind of separate myself from this.

816
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:57,560
So and that was probably the biggest telling moment.

817
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,040
When you talk about the school zone, when I'm thinking about it, I would have zero,

818
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,320
you know, latitude as well.

819
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,880
And the reason is from our perspective and yours as well, because you're in law enforcement,

820
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,880
I've really struggled with anger when it comes to selfish driving because we have been there

821
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,560
over and over and over again.

822
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,740
And I actually wrote a piece called The Man on the Curb and it was about this horrendous

823
00:55:18,740 --> 00:55:24,120
wreck and there's this dude in the corner sitting on the curb sobbing who you originally

824
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:25,440
think must be a family member.

825
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,720
And then you realize he's the piece of shit that started this whole thing in the first

826
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:30,120
place or caused it.

827
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,900
And now he's throwing himself a fucking pity party.

828
00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:38,000
So I get so angry when I see dry, I will fucking, you know, talk to them.

829
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:44,320
And I've just had a confrontation in the car park a few days ago in the grocery store.

830
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,680
I was like, oh shit, I think I'm getting into a fist fight here.

831
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:50,680
Because some guy was driving like an asshole, cut in front of a bunch of people, caused

832
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:51,960
a bunch, almost to wreck.

833
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,600
I mean, he cut in front of like a 50 mile an hour road, then goes into the parking lot

834
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,360
of the store where I happened to be going as well.

835
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,840
And then kind of like fishtails through, you know, where people are loading their cars.

836
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,440
And so I look at him and throw my hands up and he stops and gets out the car and starts

837
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,000
having a go.

838
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,880
And I basically said to him, look, I'm a firefighter.

839
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,120
I've seen what happens when people drive like that.

840
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,080
I don't want you to hurt anyone.

841
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:22,880
Now this gentleman was a one in 1000 that actually was like, oh no, you're right.

842
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,480
And he shook my hand and I was like, oh fuck, that was lucky.

843
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:26,960
I was going to get my ass kicked.

844
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,400
Well, they got way better.

845
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:29,400
Yeah.

846
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:34,200
But I mean, the thing is, it's like, you know, when you have seen it, how can you just be

847
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:35,200
complicit?

848
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,840
How can you not say something?

849
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,120
What if those words had stopped him from pulling out in the road again?

850
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,480
And he was obviously angry about something.

851
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,560
And now he gets killed, you know, a bunch of other people gets killed, get killed because

852
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:47,640
you didn't say anything.

853
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:53,360
So someone speeding through a speed zone, a school zone, we all have heard numerous

854
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,640
cases of children being run over because that has happened.

855
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:02,720
So you know, this is a line that I think we tread in law enforcement fire and EMS because

856
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,640
we have seen the horrors that this selfishness causes.

857
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,960
And you know, it's so hard to bite your tongue and not just tell someone, hey, you know,

858
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:11,960
don't do that.

859
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:17,280
I get the whole burnout mental health thing, but I think equally and opposite, we're one

860
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,840
of the very few professions that have seen the horrors that happen when people drive

861
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:21,840
like that.

862
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,920
And it makes a lot of us really fucking angry.

863
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:24,920
Yeah.

864
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,220
And I think it goes back to like that whole perspective, like we have that perspective,

865
00:57:29,220 --> 00:57:31,040
they don't have that perspective.

866
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:38,080
You know, I can vividly remember like every scene I've ever been to with a child either

867
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:44,320
injured or drowned or what I've flown over and watched a fire rescue pull a kid out of

868
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,280
a lake that I knew he was there, you know, that kind of stuff.

869
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:53,000
And then like same thing, like a drunk driver on the side of the road, he's completely fine.

870
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,600
Meanwhile, there's a family of three and only one survived.

871
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:02,760
And you're just like, how can you possibly be okay with yourself as a person?

872
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,400
And you know what it took to get there and you see the end result.

873
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,800
And you see other people kind of starting on that line where you know what the end result

874
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:17,400
could possibly be and you want to interject, you want to stop it prior to and you know,

875
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,360
you go to shake them and you say, hey, stop, don't do that.

876
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,320
And you know, they don't have the perspective of the end result that you do.

877
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:30,240
And it's probably one of the most frustrating things you can do as a person is know what

878
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:36,800
the end result could be and you see how it starts and try and relay that to the person

879
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,240
who is going to go down that same path.

880
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,640
And it's just, it can be infuriating.

881
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,480
Those movies and shows where someone's a psychic and they put their hands on the other person

882
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,680
and they transfer what they've seen to them.

883
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,600
I wish first responders could do that.

884
00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:00,460
And it's funny, I just finished writing a book the very end of last year and my burning

885
00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:04,800
goal is to make it into a TV show because to me, that's the same thing.

886
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,960
If you can actually tell in this case, it's a firefighter paramedic is the main character,

887
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:16,000
but you can show these scenes and you can see the events that led up to that and how

888
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,980
they are preventable.

889
00:59:17,980 --> 00:59:20,000
Maybe just maybe it will save a few lives.

890
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,560
You know, people will watch that and remember that as they're about to drive like an asshole

891
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,480
and go, oh, wait a second.

892
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,440
I don't want to be the man on the curb because you know, that's that to me is the only way

893
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,280
you can really do that is through the TV screen.

894
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,800
But you don't have those cautionary tales on television.

895
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:41,440
You know, my profession is really represented by a bunch of models that run around and rescue

896
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:42,440
everyone.

897
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,800
That's the only TV show that the fire service on there.

898
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:51,720
So I feel like, you know, there's a need for a powerful first responder story or firefighter

899
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:57,280
story that actually shows society what we see and how it is preventable if you just,

900
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:02,400
you know, don't act a certain way and reflect on your own mental health journey.

901
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:07,520
But yeah, I mean, just to kind of smooth the edges on the world that we see just to make

902
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:09,200
it fit Hollywood is bullshit.

903
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,040
I think that the world needs to see what a first responder actually sees and they would

904
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,920
be shocked and good.

905
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,600
You know, it'd be a kind of unofficial PSA of don't be an asshole.

906
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:24,840
Yeah, I think it when I was a kid, rescue 911 was like a still show.

907
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,400
That was still a show and that was kind of like that.

908
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:32,680
Like it was like it was reenactment, but it was kind of raw and still the 90s, right?

909
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,040
Like not phenomenal acting anyway.

910
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,680
But but it was kind of like that.

911
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:43,960
And like sometimes people died and like you were like, oh, wow, that was that was interesting.

912
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:49,440
Like hey, don't jump into a frozen lake to try and save somebody because neither of you

913
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,440
are going to make it type deal.

914
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,560
Not that we have a problem in Florida, but you know, that was that kind of stuff like

915
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:01,480
those cautionary tales of, hey, if you do this, you know, this is possibly where this

916
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,720
ends.

917
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,440
I think that's probably like the biggest issue with communication in general as being a person

918
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,600
is like you can't just transfer to somebody else.

919
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:17,680
You know, you're trying to convey it in ways that they'll understand or the ways that they'll

920
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,760
want to accept the information.

921
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:24,040
It's not always possible, which is always frustrating.

922
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:25,040
Absolutely.

923
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:31,160
Well, what kind of lead me through how you ended up flying for law enforcement and then

924
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:36,680
what were the roles that you held in that in the civilian capacity on the non-military

925
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:37,680
side?

926
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:38,680
Yeah.

927
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,160
So I went straight into law enforcement aviation.

928
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,680
I got hired by an agency directly to do that.

929
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:49,480
I had been back for maybe six months and I just wasn't happy on the road anymore.

930
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,400
I wanted to, I really wanted to pursue aviation full time.

931
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,280
I knew these jobs were out here, but they were like kind of unicorn jobs at the time

932
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,080
flying for law enforcement.

933
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:06,040
And I just got lucky, right place, right time.

934
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,520
And I was able to get in with an agency that was flying kind of older aircraft.

935
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:16,960
So I was able to build a lot of time and develop myself as a pilot.

936
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,880
I think that people are very, whether we like to believe it or not, we're very malleable

937
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,240
and we can adapt to our situations.

938
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:30,360
And like Mark, especially as a pilot, you find that your envelope is your envelope until

939
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:36,000
you've received some sort of training or you've had some sort of experience in that envelope.

940
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,800
Doesn't necessarily shift, but it does kind of bend a little bit.

941
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:49,920
And you understand like, Hey, I can operate the aircraft at limitations and also find

942
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:56,240
my limitations that I previously perceived as the stopgap to now it's actually, actually

943
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,040
further than that.

944
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:03,880
And I was, it was good because I was still in the military.

945
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:12,160
So I was doing both and each job kind of helped me become better at the other.

946
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,040
Yeah, sorry.

947
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,040
Yeah, I can hear you.

948
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:17,040
Yeah.

949
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:21,720
So each like doing each job helped me be better at the other one.

950
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,720
So like when I was flying for the military, I would throw in techniques that I was learning

951
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,280
at the, you know, flying for law enforcement.

952
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,800
And then when I was flying for law enforcement, obviously, there's a lot of military techniques

953
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:37,520
come in, you know, it's law enforcement side flying for government, local government, you

954
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,960
know, you're trying to do a lot more with a lot less, you know, you don't have unlimited

955
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,800
spending power of the United States government.

956
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:51,440
So you know, developing programs that would fit that would work with the agencies, you

957
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,560
know, that was, that was kind of what I fell into.

958
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:02,560
And I really enjoyed it, kind of developing standard operating procedures, tactical TTPs

959
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:10,320
and working into the fold like all the other guys, like bringing in SWAT, bringing in canine,

960
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:14,200
you know, working with whoever didn't matter.

961
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:19,920
I always, I always perceived aviation as a support or support entity.

962
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:25,720
So you know, what you can do with 15 deputies on the ground or 15 officers on the ground,

963
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:30,280
you can do with five in a helicopter, you know, you can hold the perimeter, you can

964
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,760
be effective at a search, you can do all that stuff, you can put guys on rooftops, you can

965
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:43,400
do all kinds of things that previously would take a lot of manpower.

966
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:48,200
So taking the assets and the resources that an agency has, and just being able to kind

967
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:53,080
of build on those, that's, that was always something that really appealed to me.

968
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,360
I really enjoyed it.

969
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,200
And when I started flying, you know, I was just trying to affect as much good as I could

970
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,400
with the vocation that I chose to pursue.

971
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:12,320
And it just just worked out, you know, you really found out, I found out that I not only

972
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,760
loved what I did, but I was I was pretty good at it.

973
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,240
And that was that was helpful.

974
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:22,480
Will you mentioned earlier about pursuing a bike and turning your lights off with the

975
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,240
technology that we have now?

976
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:32,080
How effective is it to keep tracks of a fleeing suspect so that the people on the ground are

977
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:36,880
not endangering other drivers, especially obviously pursuing as you touched on earlier,

978
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:42,000
someone that maybe had quite a minor charge relative to the potential danger chasing them

979
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,000
would actually create?

980
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:51,240
I mean, it's all up to the liability that, you know, whoever you're working for is going

981
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:56,440
to basically be pressured with.

982
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:05,040
So like, for a while, it was, hey, if the helicopter's overhead and the guy flees, then

983
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,560
the guy's going to say, well, I ran because the helicopter was there.

984
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:08,600
So I kept running.

985
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:14,400
So when I waffle, you know, the family walking through the crosswalk, oh, that was because

986
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:19,480
I went through, you know, this I was being chased by the helicopter.

987
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,760
And then it's like the state attorney's office, you know, they're the ones who would have

988
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,760
to say like, yes or no, or, you know, hey, that's a good practice.

989
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:27,760
You can continue doing that.

990
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:28,760
And for a while, it wasn't.

991
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,720
It was the helicopter was, you know, part of the problem.

992
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,320
So you turn around.

993
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:38,200
And since then, we've developed a lot of surveillance techniques to where usually we can do stuff

994
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,240
and nobody even knows we're there.

995
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:44,960
You know, with technology with cameras now, we can be at such a high altitude.

996
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:49,520
We can be, you know, when you work with the FAA, you can get lights out waivers, ADSB

997
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:50,520
out waivers.

998
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,720
So you're untrackable, you're not visible.

999
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,800
And then you have cameras that are unreal.

1000
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:02,120
And you know, you can see everything.

1001
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:08,040
And couple that with technology, you know, being able to track sources and heat sources.

1002
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:12,720
It's just nowadays it's much better than when I first started.

1003
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:13,720
Yeah.

1004
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:19,240
I mean, just from again, a non-military, excuse me, long non-law enforcement lens, it just

1005
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:20,240
makes more sense.

1006
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:25,640
I mean, back in the day when chasing in a car was the only option you had to make sure

1007
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,400
you kept tracks on that person, it made perfect sense.

1008
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:33,360
And again, if someone is, you know, just walked into a kindergarten with a knife and yeah,

1009
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:34,360
that's your pursuit.

1010
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:35,680
I mean, who knows where they're going to go next.

1011
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,820
And that that's a justified chase.

1012
01:07:37,820 --> 01:07:42,240
But you know, you sadly hear about some of these wrecks that kill police officers or

1013
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:43,680
civilians or both.

1014
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:50,840
And it was because someone tried to cash a false check or something that really, if you

1015
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:54,600
reverse engineer it, was that worth chasing them through the town or a city?

1016
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:59,400
So hearing about the technology getting better and better, therefore making the community

1017
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:04,640
safer while you're still trying to pursue this person, that is incredible because it

1018
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:05,840
just makes perfect sense.

1019
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,560
You know, if you can track them electronically and all these people don't need to, you know,

1020
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:15,000
race down, down roads and endanger people, then you know, that's a beautiful thing as

1021
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,320
far as technology in the future of policing.

1022
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:18,320
Yeah.

1023
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:22,360
And then when you couple the technology with the coordination between ground units and

1024
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:27,160
like specialty ground units on marks, you can follow and follow and follow and they

1025
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:33,200
get to an advantageous position where they can make contact without there being, you

1026
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:37,480
know, a very minimal likelihood of them trying to run or they're just so caught off guard

1027
01:08:37,480 --> 01:08:38,480
that they don't have a choice.

1028
01:08:38,480 --> 01:08:40,640
Like they're like, oh, well, never mind.

1029
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:41,640
I'm caught.

1030
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,880
You know, they get out wherever and they get out of their car and then bam, there's, you

1031
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:47,920
know, six people there who are ready to arrest them.

1032
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,880
They're like, oh man, and that's all coordinated over the radio and through aircraft and unmarked

1033
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:59,400
cars and it really is turning into a very successful procedure and tactic that we use.

1034
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,400
So it's good development.

1035
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:03,400
Absolutely.

1036
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:05,680
It's a bit of a tangent.

1037
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:11,960
When I first got into, you know, fire and EMS, I started hearing about these pilots

1038
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:16,680
that were on the helicopter side were Vietnam vets.

1039
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,360
And I'm sure, I don't know if that's still the case now because we're talking about 20

1040
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:23,720
years ago, but I heard some pretty crazy stories about some of the maneuvers some of these

1041
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:30,720
non era pilots were doing on, you know, Medevac civilian Medevac flights.

1042
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:35,360
So what are some of the Laura, have you even had experience with some of these incredible

1043
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,680
veterans of Vietnam?

1044
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:39,680
I have.

1045
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:47,720
I actually fly on the side with a guy who did two tours and attack you ease and he's

1046
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:55,400
just a corporate pilot now he flies, but I, it doesn't, I don't make a lot of money when

1047
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,640
I fly with him or any, it's just fun.

1048
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,200
It's just like, it's just a good time.

1049
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,280
Like you get in a helicopter with a guy and he's telling you stories and you're like,

1050
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,400
this is unreal.

1051
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:11,440
Like though that portion of history that will probably never really be told, you know, you're

1052
01:10:11,440 --> 01:10:15,320
learning word of mouth from somebody who lived it.

1053
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,480
And not to mention he's also just like one of my favorite human beings.

1054
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:24,720
You know, he's like from New York, he's NYPD guy and he just tells you like it is every

1055
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:30,960
time and tells complete strangers like it is every time, which is sometimes even more

1056
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,000
enjoyable to watch.

1057
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,880
It's you know, like that kind of stuff though.

1058
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:47,080
One guy was still, he was a Vietnam that when I first got into the guard and you know, you

1059
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:50,360
would watch him like, it wasn't even tactics really.

1060
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,640
It was like balancing blades on a helicopter.

1061
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,480
Like he could just look at it and be like, oh, this is what you need and then like move

1062
01:10:56,480 --> 01:10:57,480
on.

1063
01:10:57,480 --> 01:10:58,480
And you're just like, what?

1064
01:10:58,480 --> 01:10:59,840
Like how did he do that?

1065
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:01,680
That was crazy.

1066
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,760
You know, what would take five guys and a bunch of light guns and you know, they can,

1067
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,480
he can just do like just by looking.

1068
01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:10,200
He's like, oh, you add a little weight to this one, you're good.

1069
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:19,720
So I think those guys, they were forced to learn so much so quickly in a hostile environment

1070
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:25,880
that it was either like, hey, you either, you're either going to perform or you're not.

1071
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:29,240
And you know, people performed like that was it.

1072
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,400
People stepped up and you could learn to do things.

1073
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:38,080
And yeah, there's a great book called Chicken Hawk.

1074
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:43,280
And in the beginning of it, most Army pilots have read it, but in the beginning it talks

1075
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:50,200
about like the training they did prior to, and you know, they were flying like down railroad

1076
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:55,240
lines, you know, in Hueys and that's where they learned how to fly low level.

1077
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:59,840
And then they got in country and then they flew low level even lower than that.

1078
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:04,400
And a lot of that transitions through the lessons.

1079
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,040
Like my instructor, when I was in Hawks, you know, when we were doing our low level stuff,

1080
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:15,480
like I put the belly of a Hawk in a fire break in between pine trees and he was like, fly

1081
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:16,480
the line.

1082
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:21,240
And like the rotors are on top of the pines, but my belly is like in the fire break, he's

1083
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:22,240
like, fly the line.

1084
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:24,040
And I was like, this is incredible.

1085
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:28,200
And he's like, this is how you have to fly if somebody's trying to kill you.

1086
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:29,800
And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

1087
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:31,320
That makes sense.

1088
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,600
And you know, that's always kind of stuck with me.

1089
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:41,000
Like, terrain masking and using what you have around you to hide your line of sight from

1090
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,280
your enemy or from the target you're trying to hit.

1091
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:49,840
So the guys in the helicopter have the highest probability of surprising the bad guy.

1092
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:50,840
That's what you need.

1093
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,880
That's the only way to do it.

1094
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,440
Otherwise, you're putting everything at risk.

1095
01:12:54,440 --> 01:13:02,600
And you know, to do that really well, to do it safely and manage that risk prior to you

1096
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:06,480
actually get to the X, that's important.

1097
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:11,320
So I think those lessons have been passed down enough to where they may not be the same

1098
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,960
lesson but we get the gist of it.

1099
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:15,960
Absolutely.

1100
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:21,600
It's really sad about that generation because we know now that that transition home, that

1101
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:26,800
homecoming that especially if you leave the military, that loss of tribe and purpose can

1102
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:28,520
be jarring.

1103
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:34,160
But if you are somewhat received well, whether it's in a World War Two, whether it's, you

1104
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,960
know, the war on terror, that's going to dampen it a little bit.

1105
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:41,960
Hopefully you're coming back to a warm welcome and your country is proud of you.

1106
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:46,320
But you hear, I mean, I had so many people from Vietnam, Rich Rice, who was one of the

1107
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,040
founding members of Delta.

1108
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:49,280
Vietnam was his first deployment.

1109
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:50,440
Mogadishu was his last.

1110
01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:52,360
It's a pretty significant career.

1111
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:53,360
Major James-

1112
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:54,360
Oh yeah, I've met Rich.

1113
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:55,360
Oh, have you?

1114
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:56,360
Yeah.

1115
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:57,360
One of my friends.

1116
01:13:57,360 --> 01:13:59,440
He's from Go-Ruck, right?

1117
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:00,440
Yes.

1118
01:14:00,440 --> 01:14:01,440
Yep, exactly.

1119
01:14:01,440 --> 01:14:02,440
Yeah, yeah.

1120
01:14:02,440 --> 01:14:03,760
Yeah, I met him at their headquarters in Jacksonville.

1121
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:04,760
Yeah.

1122
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:05,960
He's such a humble guy.

1123
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,120
I mean, what he's done, you know, is just unbelievable.

1124
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:14,800
But then he gets out the military and then works on getting a lot of the special forces

1125
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:19,760
courses that they have to take, getting college credits for them so that these men can get

1126
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,260
degrees and transition out and forge another career.

1127
01:14:23,260 --> 01:14:28,080
So he was helping even after he did years and years and years of courageous service.

1128
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,120
But you hear about their homecoming and it was terrible.

1129
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:32,120
They were spat on.

1130
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:36,600
Major Capers was wounded and kind of brought home and was on the tarmac waiting for the

1131
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:38,320
next vehicle.

1132
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,200
And someone came and pissed on him.

1133
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,600
This is a hero in Vietnam.

1134
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,480
And so that's a generation we need to take care of because they didn't have that ticker

1135
01:14:47,480 --> 01:14:49,520
tape parade when they came back.

1136
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:54,720
So it's an incredible band of men and women and the crazy thing is a lot of them were

1137
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:55,720
forced.

1138
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:56,720
They were drafted.

1139
01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:57,720
They didn't sign up.

1140
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,040
And yet they were still called baby killers when they came back.

1141
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,520
So yeah, I mean, that's a very unique war.

1142
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,240
And then the other one is the Korean War, which basically is barely acknowledged, which

1143
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,480
that has to hurt as well for a lot of Korean veterans.

1144
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:11,800
Yeah.

1145
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:21,360
My wife's grandfather, he actually volunteered for World War II and he was like 15 turning

1146
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:22,360
16.

1147
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,640
And then he ended up doing merchant marine for that and then he was in Korea.

1148
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,280
And before he passed away, he would tell a couple stories here and there.

1149
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:35,320
We went and saw Fury together, which I don't know if that was a great idea or not, but

1150
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,840
he wanted to go and the whole time he's like, oh, I used to shoot those.

1151
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:40,480
And I can't use like what?

1152
01:15:40,480 --> 01:15:46,200
It's like so cool to hear those stories from those guys, but obviously it's such a horrible.

1153
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:51,520
I mean, I think it's tough for especially like the G-Water era to even comprehend like

1154
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:53,320
what that kind of warfare was like.

1155
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:57,440
You know, you hear the stories and you're still like, what?

1156
01:15:57,440 --> 01:16:08,600
It's just so hard to think about, you know, that much just kind of just so hard fighting

1157
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:10,680
all the time.

1158
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:11,680
It's crazy.

1159
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:14,200
It's crazy to think about.

1160
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:19,440
When people from GWAP reflect and they start pointing out that, hey, they didn't have GPS.

1161
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:24,600
They didn't have these amazing radio communications or satellites or any of this stuff.

1162
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:29,120
They were literally like parachuting into a place with a paper map and that was it.

1163
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:33,720
So when you put that into perspective, that you're dropped into Belgium or wherever it

1164
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:38,080
is and you've just got to make your way through and try not to get shot by the hundreds of

1165
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:40,160
thousands of Nazis that are surrounding you.

1166
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,360
I mean, it's just, it's insane when you think about the heroism.

1167
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:44,360
Yeah.

1168
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:53,880
I mean, from a helicopter side, like in Tommy Franks' book, General Tom Franks, he talks

1169
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,560
about being a forward air observer.

1170
01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:01,640
So he's listening in one ear to the call for fire radio and then he's listening to the

1171
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:06,480
other ear with like the air to air radios and he's like juggling back and forth and

1172
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:07,480
he was like, how?

1173
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:08,960
How'd you fight like that?

1174
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,760
Like that's for us, like we have so many different radios.

1175
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,040
We just move the stack around and we're like, all right, you listen to this, you listen

1176
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:19,040
to that and you can focus like we have it so much easier.

1177
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:22,760
And these guys were successful in fighting like that.

1178
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:30,640
And it's just, I don't know, it's really interesting to think about and process and put things

1179
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:31,640
in perspective.

1180
01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:32,640
Absolutely.

1181
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:40,080
Well, going back to you finding yourself kind of spinning out with the motorcycle after

1182
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:44,920
you catch up with him and you realize that you kind of burned out at that point.

1183
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:48,840
What are some of the tools you start leaning into to get yourself back to where you want

1184
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:54,880
to be?

1185
01:17:54,880 --> 01:18:04,600
Order and God are two of my go-tos, not necessarily in that order, but just to answer your question.

1186
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:09,760
So I am related to some Catholic, I was born and raised that way and I've seen a lot of

1187
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:16,480
things in my life that have just kind of solidified my faith.

1188
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:27,760
And I lost it a little bit for maybe a couple of years and it was just around that time,

1189
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:35,360
like you trying to justify like how God could take good men and women in war.

1190
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:42,440
And it took me a while, talking to priests to really kind of understand like, hey, this

1191
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:46,320
is my viewpoint, my viewpoint is like this world's a medium and there is definitely

1192
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:52,040
evil forces at play and those evil forces do have a say, just like every other enemy

1193
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:53,600
does.

1194
01:18:53,600 --> 01:19:02,280
And it's our job as Christians to basically be able to rise above those and to fight those

1195
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:06,280
and to lean on God and lean into God.

1196
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:13,760
And the other is the ocean and just water in general.

1197
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:18,120
To me, water is just such a calming, healing force in my life.

1198
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:27,360
I love fishing, diving, I like being immersed in it, I like looking at it, it doesn't really

1199
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,000
matter what I'm doing as long as I'm around it.

1200
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:35,160
Running water, the ocean, a lake, I don't care.

1201
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:41,240
I've done everything from whitewater kayaking to surfing to free diving to spearfishing

1202
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:45,640
to you know, sitting on a lake in a canoe with a fishing rod.

1203
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,600
So I just love everything about it.

1204
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:53,800
It's always been something that just calms me and centers my chi.

1205
01:19:53,800 --> 01:20:00,560
And then about a year after I got back, so my wife and I went to high school together

1206
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:02,800
and we didn't date, we were just friends.

1207
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:10,520
She was like the popular girl in school and I was probably not the popular guy in school,

1208
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:14,200
but I definitely wasn't too interested in like school stuff.

1209
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,560
You know, I just kind of did my stuff and went on with my day.

1210
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:26,320
But after I got back, a year after she was in Jacksonville and that's where my unit was

1211
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:29,920
and I called her and was like, hey, you know, what are you doing?

1212
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:32,640
You want to just stay high basically.

1213
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:36,520
We kind of had like a little fling in college a little bit but nothing too crazy.

1214
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:46,440
And then once we started dating and we started hanging out and I started feeling somebody

1215
01:20:46,440 --> 01:20:51,480
care for me again and it was like just me as I was.

1216
01:20:51,480 --> 01:20:55,760
You know, I wasn't perfect by any means and I was still kind of going through the trail

1217
01:20:55,760 --> 01:21:02,760
end of the war stuff and not dealing with you know, maybe somebody not liking me for

1218
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:09,520
you know, my ex you know, basically discarded me for somebody else which is a tough thing

1219
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,500
to go through.

1220
01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:19,760
Having someone care about you just for you being you was that was like extremely powerful

1221
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:25,720
to experience and you know, she was just so awesome.

1222
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,720
I mean, she still is awesome obviously.

1223
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:36,360
You know, it was a really powerful experience to go through and that helped immensely.

1224
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:43,080
I don't really know if she knows that I think about it that way but I do.

1225
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:48,440
You know, it's like you know, to me, God puts things in your life right when you need it

1226
01:21:48,440 --> 01:21:52,400
and sometimes he lets you linger for a little bit and kind of fight it out so that you can

1227
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:58,120
appreciate it more and in my opinion, that's what he did.

1228
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:03,480
That's kind of where I feel that whole scenario when you know, I had to go through a lot to

1229
01:22:03,480 --> 01:22:11,560
reconnect with her and you know, now we have three beautiful little girls and you know,

1230
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:21,960
my life is just it's amazing to see like how your life can develop and that was all because

1231
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:24,240
of that trajectory.

1232
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:29,640
Yeah, I can relate that same thing happened to me and at the time obviously it doesn't

1233
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:35,160
feel like a you know, a very good thing when you're a single parent and you know, did everything

1234
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:39,920
you could to serve people and then you know, you kind of that happens you're stabbed in

1235
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:45,840
the back as it were and then I met my wife now and it was the same exact thing.

1236
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,840
You know, that wouldn't have happened without my previous marriage.

1237
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:51,880
You know, I wouldn't have had my son without my previous marriage so I've got no regrets

1238
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:58,680
at all but this 2.0 version you know, it's phenomenal and I do feel seen and loved and

1239
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:02,400
heard and all the things that I think a lot of us you know, struggle with in the first

1240
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:03,760
marriage.

1241
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:09,160
So yeah, I mean, it's hard to see oh, this is probably going to be good one day when

1242
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:14,160
you're deep in it but it's beautiful to reflect back and look around where you are now and

1243
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:19,400
go okay, you know, making it through that is what created this and this is really what

1244
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:22,440
I call resilience you know, this is that post-traumatic growth.

1245
01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:23,800
Yeah, absolutely.

1246
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:29,240
Yeah, I think you know, it's funny I was saying that I was talking to my brother after you

1247
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:32,600
know, after I got back and I was like, I don't understand like what did I like, what could

1248
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:33,600
I have possibly done?

1249
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,000
He was like, dude, what are you doing?

1250
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:37,440
It's nothing to do with you.

1251
01:23:37,440 --> 01:23:38,440
Like you're solid.

1252
01:23:38,440 --> 01:23:43,800
It's like this will be fine and man was he right.

1253
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:58,160
So it's yeah, I mean, after that year, you know, my wife and I, we got married in 14

1254
01:23:58,160 --> 01:23:59,800
and then she moved down to Stewart.

1255
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:06,160
I was already living here anyway and so she kind of like just double-dutched right into

1256
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:11,680
the house and you know, we had bought a house when we were engaged and that was it man.

1257
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:19,000
We just took off from there and we had our first daughter in 2016 and I deployed three

1258
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:24,720
months later for another year back to Iraq and that was tough but we had like FaceTime

1259
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:33,720
which is super helpful and it was I think that going to war the first time and then

1260
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:41,220
going back is super helpful when it comes to your perspective and having like four years

1261
01:24:41,220 --> 01:24:42,220
in between.

1262
01:24:42,220 --> 01:24:44,320
I know a lot of guys didn't get that.

1263
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:47,800
You know, they were doing back to back to back and that's tough to like decompress,

1264
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:51,800
compartmentalize everything and like really understand who you are and like how you're

1265
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:57,440
going to react because my return at the second one was way better.

1266
01:24:57,440 --> 01:25:01,680
I mean night and day and my mindset throughout the entire tour was totally different.

1267
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:06,900
I think a lot of that had to do with being a dad as well and like understanding like

1268
01:25:06,900 --> 01:25:14,640
okay, you know, it's not as simple as like oh, this is going to happen like life is crazy

1269
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:19,240
and things happen and you know, you just have to be as prepared as possible and roll with

1270
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:24,440
the punches and don't go into it with a bad mentality, go into it with a good mentality

1271
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:31,200
and try and take as much good as you can out of every experience and once I adopted that

1272
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:39,920
kind of mindset, it made everything much easier as far as you know, being away and understanding

1273
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,980
the risks that we were taking every day, just being in country and knowing that bad guys

1274
01:25:43,980 --> 01:25:51,720
were around but it also wasn't as anywhere near as combat oriented.

1275
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:58,480
You know, there were definitely a lot of fighting going on but it was a lot less for me.

1276
01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:03,840
You know, very rarely we'd even see you know, guys on the ground taking pot shots at the

1277
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:04,840
aircraft at night.

1278
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,440
It wasn't even that.

1279
01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:10,760
And then did you go into the Air Force after that?

1280
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:12,240
Have I got that right?

1281
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:20,480
Yeah, so I got back and my wife and I, I changed law enforcement agencies again and then to

1282
01:26:20,480 --> 01:26:24,960
fly for another agency and then I got back and I switched over to the Air Force, Flying

1283
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:27,080
Combat Rescue with them.

1284
01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:29,760
So my wife and I were sitting there and I was talking and I was like, listen, if we

1285
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:36,880
go again, one, I'll be like a staff guy, which I don't really want to be in the Army because

1286
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:41,000
I'd make major and then that kind of like puts you into a point where you don't really

1287
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,480
fly that often and then two, it's like it's big Army.

1288
01:26:44,480 --> 01:26:49,240
Like you're there, you don't really get to pick your teammates.

1289
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:54,160
It's kind of like who you get, it's who you get, it's who you fly with and I was at the

1290
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,680
point where I was like kind of bringing up a lot of junior officers and I was like training

1291
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:03,320
them on how to fly in combat because a lot of them hadn't before.

1292
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:09,240
And then I just got to the point where I was like, hey, if I come back again, I want it

1293
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,720
to be with an elite group.

1294
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:15,120
Like I want to be with top-notch pilots.

1295
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:16,320
I still want to be flying.

1296
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:19,920
I don't want to revert to be a warrant officer.

1297
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:24,920
I just felt like I had worked so hard and I really wanted to pursue a career where I could

1298
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:29,040
do both, like have my cake and eat it too type deal.

1299
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:34,120
And then the Air Force, our combat rescue tours are like three and a half months instead

1300
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:39,400
of a year, which was also very helpful to make that decision.

1301
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:41,840
And my Air Force squadron is way closer.

1302
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:44,540
It's like an hour and a half instead of four hour drive.

1303
01:27:44,540 --> 01:27:47,160
So it's easier to manage.

1304
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:50,920
But it was humbling when I first got there.

1305
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:56,360
Combat rescue is a very elite group and just to get in took over a year.

1306
01:27:56,360 --> 01:28:02,640
And then when I got there, I mean, I had been flying for a long time and these guys are

1307
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:03,640
good.

1308
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:10,320
They are very good pilots and their tactics are very methodical, very well thought out.

1309
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,760
So it was like starting all over again.

1310
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:15,080
I was studying hard.

1311
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:19,960
I still do study hard, just going up there for a flight on the weekend.

1312
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,120
It's a lot to coordinate, manage.

1313
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:28,840
Every mission is very complex, at least in the planning side.

1314
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,800
You're constantly planning for like worst case scenario.

1315
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:37,360
Unlucky jets, for whatever reason the guy punches out and you go behind him and he wants

1316
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:38,640
to go pick him up.

1317
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:41,120
How you're going to fight into the country, how you're going to fight out, who's going

1318
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:42,120
to be covering you.

1319
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:48,760
Who's everything from like, hey, I got AT-10s covering me to I've got SEED above, taking

1320
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:53,040
out SAMs, whether that's F-18s, F-22s, where are my refuelers at?

1321
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:58,960
It's just like the whole battle space in your cockpit and you're like riding it on Sharpies

1322
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:01,800
on your window and you're like, oh my gosh, this is a lot.

1323
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:04,240
Just trying to keep track of everything.

1324
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:08,880
So it's a totally different way to fight.

1325
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:13,320
And man, you fall in love with it quick.

1326
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:18,400
It's so complex and you get done and you do it well for the first time and you're like,

1327
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:20,840
man, that's so addicting.

1328
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:24,600
And it's funny, all the rescue guys, I don't know a single rescue guy is like, oh, I'm

1329
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:26,800
getting out of rescue, I'm going to go do something else.

1330
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:29,960
Everyone's like, man, this is awesome.

1331
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:36,360
So yeah, I think I'll probably do that for a little while longer.

1332
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:47,320
But I deployed with them in 2022, the day after Christmas, and then came back in April

1333
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:48,320
of 23.

1334
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:49,320
23, 24.

1335
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:50,320
Yeah, 23.

1336
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:59,880
And then, yeah, that was a fun, I mean, as far as deployments go, I mean, we were super

1337
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:05,800
active, mostly in Jordan, Iraq, Syria area.

1338
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:10,680
So kind of the same region I've always been very comfortable with.

1339
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:18,040
And kind of doing the same mission set, except with that thought process of going behind

1340
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:25,200
enemy lines to go get people who really needed it, like you're their last option, is a lot.

1341
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:31,120
And then working with tier one groups to kind of cover them in case they get into a bad

1342
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:37,760
spot and managing all that, like all the players in town who could potentially need your help,

1343
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:42,640
being prepared as far as equipment and personnel and being able to make those moves, coordinating

1344
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:43,920
fuel in between.

1345
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:47,640
I mean, like that's kind of the whole gig.

1346
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:56,160
And doing that operationally, it was very rewarding.

1347
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,080
Just super powerful type of experience.

1348
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:01,720
You're looking at the whole battle space, you're like, all right, if this happens, I'm

1349
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:02,720
going to have to go here.

1350
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:04,480
But at the same time, this could happen.

1351
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:06,120
So I need to be able to flex.

1352
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:07,120
And it's just cool.

1353
01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:11,520
It's a different, cool animal.

1354
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:13,320
Were you working with the PJs?

1355
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:14,320
Yeah.

1356
01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:16,680
So we fly with PJs on board.

1357
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:21,360
That's kind of like, that's our go-to team.

1358
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:28,400
Able to flex to others, but typically, we're always co-located with PJs.

1359
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:32,880
I've said this on a few times, doesn't mean I ever would have qualified to be one.

1360
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:38,680
But if I did have to test for a special operations, special forces group, that to me would be

1361
01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:39,680
the one.

1362
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:44,680
Because if you look at any of them that replicate fire and EMS together, I mean, that's the

1363
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:45,680
team.

1364
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:50,160
So watching some of the documentaries and what they do, the level of medicine, and again,

1365
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:57,160
having to do that under assault from an enemy or just the medicine actually happening in

1366
01:31:57,160 --> 01:32:02,280
the back of the helicopter itself, that is a phenomenal, phenomenal team between the

1367
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:05,120
pilots like you and the PJs in the back.

1368
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:10,120
And then the rope rescue and all the other skills that they have to be a master of, it

1369
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:14,400
really does kind of mirror on the civilian side, the fire and EMS.

1370
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:15,400
Yeah.

1371
01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:21,240
It's super transferable to what I do now.

1372
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:24,080
Because you really are, you're rolling in tactics.

1373
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,360
Because they have operator level tactics coupled with medicine.

1374
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:30,440
And you're just like, yeah, this is a great combo.

1375
01:32:30,440 --> 01:32:32,440
And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

1376
01:32:32,440 --> 01:32:41,400
To me, it's a really cool thing to see those guys in action and watch them zero in on the

1377
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:47,360
tasks they have at hand and be able to move from like, okay, threats, we're off threat,

1378
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:48,360
now we're on the medicine.

1379
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:52,800
And then they go into medicine, they're like, right, now I need to extract this guy.

1380
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:54,600
And then, okay, how am I going to get him out?

1381
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:59,560
And then watching them go through their phases is really impressive.

1382
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:04,960
And in the meantime, they're like, oh, by the way, I can also jump in with a barrel

1383
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:06,560
between my legs if I need to.

1384
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,080
And then you guys can swoop in and get us later.

1385
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,080
And you're just like, what?

1386
01:33:11,080 --> 01:33:15,080
It's really cool.

1387
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:22,840
And I don't know, you think about how difficult it is to get into some of these places.

1388
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,480
I know a lot of people are like, wow, that's so wild.

1389
01:33:25,480 --> 01:33:31,400
It's like, I'm just like a normal dude who just happened to ask to say, hey, can I join?

1390
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:33,680
And they're like, well, I guess.

1391
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:37,120
And you make it and you're like, that is awesome.

1392
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:44,600
And having those opportunities afforded to you is definitely a blessing in my life.

1393
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:46,040
You spoke about go-rock.

1394
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,120
Did you ever cross paths with Roger Sparks?

1395
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:51,020
He's kind of a legend in the PJ world.

1396
01:33:51,020 --> 01:33:52,020
I have not.

1397
01:33:52,020 --> 01:33:55,880
I've only done, I did one go-rock tough.

1398
01:33:55,880 --> 01:34:01,200
When I got back to my second tour, that was like my, which is weird to say, but that was

1399
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:08,840
like my, my present to myself was do a go-rock tough, which sounds ridiculous to do.

1400
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:11,280
But it was a lot of fun.

1401
01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:17,080
But then I was actually flying with that other guy, the guy who worked for, who was in Vietnam

1402
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:20,200
and we were up in Jacksonville and I was like, we had three hours and I was like, oh, go

1403
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:21,200
rockets here.

1404
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:22,960
Let's go to their headquarters.

1405
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:27,280
And that's when we got to see the whole operation and it was a lot of fun.

1406
01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:28,280
It was good.

1407
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:33,960
And it was really cool to see those two guys talk about Vietnam together because they were

1408
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:35,320
kind of in the same area.

1409
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:39,320
Like they were obviously, you know, he was a pilot and one of the special forces, but

1410
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:42,040
to listen to them like talk about, oh yeah, no, I know.

1411
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:43,040
Yeah, I know.

1412
01:34:43,040 --> 01:34:44,040
I know exactly where that was.

1413
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:45,040
And you're just like, whoa.

1414
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:46,040
You sit back.

1415
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:47,040
You're like, this is amazing.

1416
01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:49,040
I wish I had a camera of this like video.

1417
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:50,920
This it was really cool.

1418
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:51,920
Yeah.

1419
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:56,160
So this is the beautiful thing about podcasts is you get to, you know, in some cases it's

1420
01:34:56,160 --> 01:35:01,800
me like in on this show asking, for example, rich and not just the military stuff, like,

1421
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:06,600
you know, why were we in Vietnam and him talking about, well, if you look at it trades wise,

1422
01:35:06,600 --> 01:35:10,640
this is why, you know, Saigon or some of these other areas were so valuable.

1423
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:14,760
And you're like, ah, you know, so you, again, you see this kind of human perspective and

1424
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:19,720
then you also hear about, you know, what it's like to being hunted by the Vietcong as you're

1425
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:21,960
walking around jungles that you're not supposed to be in.

1426
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:25,840
And, you know, you just can't imagine what again, you know, generationally what that

1427
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:26,840
was like.

1428
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:32,320
But then when, when you get a couple of people on like one time, I forget what had just happened.

1429
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:34,400
Maybe it was the Afghanistan withdrawal.

1430
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:41,400
I sat down with rich Jason and Emily McCarthy and in, and I basically asked him about all

1431
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:44,240
the things because Emily was CIA.

1432
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,640
Jason was a green beret, riches, you know, Delta.

1433
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:52,320
And again, that room full of people, their thoughts, you know, and all the different

1434
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:57,960
lenses that they have versus fucking Fox and CNN, where you just get nothing but, you know,

1435
01:35:57,960 --> 01:35:59,980
eight assholes arguing with each other.

1436
01:35:59,980 --> 01:36:05,300
You can actually listen to real human beings with boots on the ground and just listen,

1437
01:36:05,300 --> 01:36:07,720
you know, shut up and listen from these people's perspective.

1438
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:09,040
And it was fascinating.

1439
01:36:09,040 --> 01:36:15,200
So I love the fact that now this medium, you can be in, you know, Durban, South Africa

1440
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:19,400
right now and listen to this conversation, for example, and hear what it's like, you

1441
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:23,720
know, to be an American helicopter pilot in the law enforcement and the military world.

1442
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:28,320
So yeah, these, these, uh, these conversations that we was talking about before I hit record,

1443
01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:33,080
I mean, they're indelible, you know, they're, they're, uh, um, unlimited resource for someone

1444
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:38,000
to really listen about, you know, what was it like so that you can make your own, you

1445
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:39,160
know, not even opinion.

1446
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:44,040
You can hear from boots on the ground rather than some, you know, dickhead in a blue or

1447
01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:47,600
red tie giving you their opinion on something.

1448
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:48,600
Yeah.

1449
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:56,160
Who usually has less perspective than anyone else, but they're, they sound good in a sound

1450
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:57,160
bite.

1451
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:01,840
So yeah, it's, it's, it's frustrating that pepper is definitely frustrating, but you

1452
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:07,880
know, being able to do like a fly on the wall for those types of conversations is, is pretty,

1453
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:08,880
pretty wild.

1454
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:09,880
Absolutely.

1455
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:15,640
Well, one more area before we round off, talk to me about HeloTac.

1456
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:24,840
HeloTac was a company and I was kind of basically, I was giving instruction and giving out products

1457
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:31,520
kind of on the fly and it got to the point where people were asking for kind of a more

1458
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:34,640
structured type of curriculum.

1459
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:41,080
And I had the unique perspective of doing military and police flying and they complement

1460
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:42,640
each other very well.

1461
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:50,220
And the way that it works is a lot of agencies, they have either aircraft or they have tactics

1462
01:37:50,220 --> 01:37:51,960
that are one or the other.

1463
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:56,120
They either have guys who are like military guys and you know, they might be trained in

1464
01:37:56,120 --> 01:38:01,240
hoist, fast rope, tactical insertion extraction, but they're not really trained in law enforcement

1465
01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:05,800
ops or they have guys who are just trained in law enforcement ops and they don't have

1466
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:08,080
a tactical background.

1467
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:14,680
So what I was seeing in the industry was, you know, one or two guys would be really

1468
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:20,160
good at one thing and typically that would either be like a rescue type of scenario or

1469
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:26,360
they'd be really good at like aerial platform operations, you're shooting out of the helicopter,

1470
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:33,840
you know, like Texas DPS is great at that kind of stuff, you know, ARS is great at hoists.

1471
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:41,480
But putting it all together and like understanding how the whole mission will flow is not anything

1472
01:38:41,480 --> 01:38:43,040
that anyone tackles.

1473
01:38:43,040 --> 01:38:47,040
So it's like, hey, okay, we get the mission.

1474
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:50,000
I'm going to lower somebody from the helicopter, I'm going to pick them up and I'm going to

1475
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:51,440
bring it back to the helicopter.

1476
01:38:51,440 --> 01:38:53,360
Cool, got that.

1477
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:55,080
But how do I do that?

1478
01:38:55,080 --> 01:38:56,080
How do I get there?

1479
01:38:56,080 --> 01:39:01,360
Like, well, the mission drops and then this is kind of where the whole Air Force and Army

1480
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:06,640
thing kind of ties in because that's what we would get.

1481
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:09,160
You would just get a mission and they would say like, hey, I need to do this.

1482
01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:12,760
I don't care how you do it, this is what we need to do, this is the end result that we're

1483
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:13,880
looking for.

1484
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:20,360
So then at Helo-Tac, that's kind of what we do is we specialize like, hey, this is how

1485
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:24,200
you get from point A to point B. So SWAT comes to you and they say, hey, we need to get on

1486
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:25,200
this rooftop right now.

1487
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:26,200
How do you do it?

1488
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:28,200
You know, how do you pre-stage your equipment?

1489
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:29,200
What are your SOPs?

1490
01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:30,200
What are your minimums?

1491
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:32,440
What is your operating envelope?

1492
01:39:32,440 --> 01:39:38,520
What's your, you know, what weight do you need to be at to do an OG hover and approach?

1493
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:41,680
Those are all things that like you need to know.

1494
01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:46,400
Instead of like just going out and doing a bunch of reps and calling it good and saying

1495
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:47,480
like, hey, guess what?

1496
01:39:47,480 --> 01:39:49,080
You're trained in hoist.

1497
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:50,400
You're trained in fast rope.

1498
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:52,080
Good job.

1499
01:39:52,080 --> 01:40:00,120
We try to really give, you know, the clients and really the agencies that we work with

1500
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:09,120
the tools to be successful and to be able to execute those missions precisely and do

1501
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:12,600
it every time.

1502
01:40:12,600 --> 01:40:17,400
And not to say that they wouldn't be able to figure that out eventually, but like we're

1503
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:19,680
just a fast track.

1504
01:40:19,680 --> 01:40:23,560
And really it's me who already has two full-time jobs.

1505
01:40:23,560 --> 01:40:29,680
And then, you know, I, because of the amazing people that I get to work with, you know,

1506
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:33,640
I've tagged two guys to come in as instructors.

1507
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:37,200
One was a tier one PJ who turned pilot.

1508
01:40:37,200 --> 01:40:42,800
And then the other was a coast guard pilot who turned Air Force pilot.

1509
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:48,880
And so we have like this very unique perspective of doing things operationally, learning how

1510
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:57,120
to dynamically game plan, like in the helicopter, which it has to include your SWAT guys, your

1511
01:40:57,120 --> 01:41:01,040
canine operators or your canine handlers.

1512
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:05,800
It has to include all those people because they're going to the target.

1513
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:09,560
And the direction that you even make your approach, the way that you coordinate with

1514
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:13,960
ground forces as they start making their approach, that's all stuff you have to account for.

1515
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:15,640
But nobody trains you to do that.

1516
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:20,640
They just train you to slide a rope from 20 feet and they go, hey, good job.

1517
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:26,680
You're fast rope called, which is, it's like such a small piece of the puzzle.

1518
01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:30,720
Like yeah, you have to do that, but like that's easy.

1519
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:39,760
That's an afternoon of just getting race current, but like coordinating the timing that it takes.

1520
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:44,000
At what minutes do you start going from two connection points to one?

1521
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:46,400
At what minute mark do you start putting your gloves on?

1522
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:51,680
At what minute mark do you start opening doors and prepping gear?

1523
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:59,240
That's all stuff that people don't teach and there really is no way to do it without making

1524
01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:03,120
mistakes.

1525
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:09,280
I don't want my fellow aviators to make mistakes if I've already made them.

1526
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:16,840
I want to be able to pass those along prior to, so that they can be effective and that

1527
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:24,000
way we minimize the chances of them having an issue and we maximize their success on

1528
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:26,640
target.

1529
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:32,640
That comes back into making sure that they get home to their families okay.

1530
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:39,260
If they can fast rope safer, if they can execute a hoist safer, if they can capture the bad

1531
01:42:39,260 --> 01:42:45,000
guy and manage their risk while doing it, that's what I want.

1532
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:46,560
That's my goal.

1533
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:55,640
My goal isn't, this is like a part-time gig and it's basically just my way of trying to

1534
01:42:55,640 --> 01:43:02,000
give back to the community.

1535
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:09,680
It's fun to see guys progress quickly in a course and then it click.

1536
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:16,080
Once it clicks and it's like oh wait, I really have to, so I am planning this but now I need

1537
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:19,120
to plan like the exact approach that I do.

1538
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:22,080
I need to plan where the ropes are.

1539
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:27,240
I've reconfigured the back of so many different helicopters to try and maximize the effectiveness

1540
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:32,640
and just the ability for like additional operators to slide to the door to get to a good position

1541
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:35,120
so that they can fast rope.

1542
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:39,080
I've worked at so many times like I don't want you to have to do that.

1543
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:42,680
I just want to be able to show you that real fast and be like hey, this is the best way

1544
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:48,120
I've got so far and by all means if you find a better one, please tell me because I want

1545
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:50,160
to spread that around.

1546
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:58,080
I want law enforcement pilots and aviation units and SWAT operators to be able to like

1547
01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:03,720
just work together and solve these problems because these are all problems that are they're

1548
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:04,720
coming.

1549
01:44:04,720 --> 01:44:11,400
They're coming fast and furious and I mean with the threats that there are these days,

1550
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:15,640
we have to be prepared.

1551
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:21,320
It's not if, it's when and everyone should be preparing for the worst case scenario so

1552
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:25,600
that when the minuscule threat hits, you got it.

1553
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:32,200
Like you've already practiced, you've already done mock missions, you've already you know

1554
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:34,800
slid in the rope a hundred times.

1555
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:40,880
You know, you've decaled into a zone already.

1556
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:44,960
You know kind of what you're doing so you're not trying to figure this out on a fly and

1557
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:48,280
that's really the main goal.

1558
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:51,840
When I think about some of the stories I've heard, I think this happened in Mogadishu

1559
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:56,600
if I've got my memory right but you hear a lot of you know injuries and even fatalities

1560
01:44:56,600 --> 01:45:00,080
on the fast rope and certain insertions.

1561
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:04,600
When you've obviously I'm assuming studied some of these as you learn about that technique

1562
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:09,680
in the first place, what are some of the common denominators of mistakes made during fast

1563
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:12,600
roping by some of our military?

1564
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:17,800
I think that some of the, one of the biggest mistakes that's made is altitude.

1565
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:23,840
So like I personally believe that a fast rope should be used as a handhold to get to the

1566
01:45:23,840 --> 01:45:27,480
ground and that's only because I can't put skids down for whatever reason.

1567
01:45:27,480 --> 01:45:33,960
So I will go as low as humanly possible as long as I can affect my egress.

1568
01:45:33,960 --> 01:45:39,280
Like I don't go so static over like let's say you're going to a rooftop and like you

1569
01:45:39,280 --> 01:45:45,160
get too low over the rooftop and now to get out, I need to pull a bunch of power, climb

1570
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:50,240
and kind of like show myself to whatever threat could possibly be there.

1571
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:54,600
I don't want to do that but I do want to get as low as humanly possible so that we can

1572
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:58,760
fast rope down and the guys have a minimal time on the rope.

1573
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:04,000
You know, the higher you go, it looks cool and everyone's like oh, this is look how cool

1574
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:05,000
we did.

1575
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:06,000
We did a 40-foot fast rope.

1576
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:07,880
We did a 60-foot fast.

1577
01:46:07,880 --> 01:46:09,440
That's crazy.

1578
01:46:09,440 --> 01:46:12,360
60-foot fast rope is so long.

1579
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:15,960
That's a lot of time on the rope for something to go bad.

1580
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:19,880
You know, and I've seen it.

1581
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:22,640
I've already learned it the hard way.

1582
01:46:22,640 --> 01:46:27,760
You know, we had a guy get on one time and he had speed laces on and you know, that snagged

1583
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:34,320
the rope and nobody you know, everyone kind of just figured like hey, that wasn't a thing.

1584
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:35,720
Well, it is a thing.

1585
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:42,360
Thank God he was just a monster and held his whole body weight with his upper body but

1586
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:47,160
you know, ripped his legs right off the rope and that was like a probably good 35-foot

1587
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:48,160
fast rope.

1588
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:56,040
You know, if he would have fallen, he could be dead and you know, it is a lot of risk.

1589
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:58,760
Law enforcement too is much different too.

1590
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:00,840
Everyone thinks like oh, the military does it.

1591
01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:02,240
Law enforcement should be able to do it.

1592
01:47:02,240 --> 01:47:06,920
We have a lot more liability when it comes to you know, flying law enforcement.

1593
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:07,920
It's a local government.

1594
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:09,640
You have liability for your people.

1595
01:47:09,640 --> 01:47:15,360
You have liability for the public, liability for property, all things that aren't necessarily

1596
01:47:15,360 --> 01:47:22,720
your one of your key you know, factors when you're doing the military.

1597
01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:28,720
So taking those into account and planning accordingly for those, that's a huge part

1598
01:47:28,720 --> 01:47:30,200
of it too.

1599
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:35,280
So what about sleep regulations?

1600
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:37,600
Something I talk about on here so much.

1601
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:42,400
This poor dead horse has been flogged for eight years now but is the sleep deprivation and

1602
01:47:42,400 --> 01:47:46,560
the impact on our first responders but these are people in vehicles, you know, fire engines

1603
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:48,380
and cruisers and things.

1604
01:47:48,380 --> 01:47:55,240
When it comes to aviation, what are the parameters that you have to operate around sleep regulations?

1605
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:59,800
So we're not like a part 135 is like what you would say like a medical operator.

1606
01:47:59,800 --> 01:48:01,080
We don't do that.

1607
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:04,200
So we're actually like public use.

1608
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:06,160
So we don't have rules.

1609
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:08,960
So we have to establish our own rules.

1610
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:11,960
So we use the same rules.

1611
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:20,400
So basically everyone has to get eight hours between each shift and then we go on top of

1612
01:48:20,400 --> 01:48:24,320
that and we ensure that they have 10 because we don't want them to go.

1613
01:48:24,320 --> 01:48:26,360
We want them to have travel time to and from.

1614
01:48:26,360 --> 01:48:31,960
But at the end of the day, like, you know, I can't make somebody sleep when they go home

1615
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:34,560
as much as I would love to.

1616
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:41,800
But you know, we treat people like they're adults and we say, hey, if we're going to

1617
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:45,760
trust you to go fly this helicopter, I trust you to get a good night's sleep.

1618
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:51,080
That being said, if somebody isn't well-rested, that can be a pretty significant issue.

1619
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:56,040
So we do have like at my agency, we have bunk rooms.

1620
01:48:56,040 --> 01:49:00,800
It's like as close as you can be to being a firefighter as you can to being a cop.

1621
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:04,560
So they're able to rest, but sometimes it doesn't work out.

1622
01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:06,160
So it goes off flight time.

1623
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:07,800
They only work 12-hour shifts.

1624
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:12,760
So if they get to five hours of flight time, they call one of the supervisors, either me

1625
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:18,520
or one of the other supervisors, and then we work on getting another shift in.

1626
01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:20,520
That does happen.

1627
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:22,640
It can be pretty busy.

1628
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:24,240
So it's really about flight time.

1629
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:29,240
And since all the shifts are 12 hours, technically if something extends, you can be there for

1630
01:49:29,240 --> 01:49:30,640
16.

1631
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:33,960
But sleep is a constant issue.

1632
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:36,680
I mean, just getting rest in general.

1633
01:49:36,680 --> 01:49:42,240
You know, alternating between night shifts can be really problematic, especially for

1634
01:49:42,240 --> 01:49:45,560
people with families.

1635
01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:47,720
And it's just a constant issue.

1636
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:55,000
And unfortunately, there's no real good way to maximize it unless you put people on fixed

1637
01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:56,000
shifts.

1638
01:49:56,000 --> 01:50:01,360
And then that's problematic because it can really hurt the morale of the unit if somebody's

1639
01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:07,720
just on a fixed shift and you got little kids and you're missing out on so much stuff.

1640
01:50:07,720 --> 01:50:10,800
At what point does that become more problematic?

1641
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:14,600
It's such a delicate balancing act.

1642
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:21,080
How many hours a week do you work as a pilot, like fixed within the law enforcement side?

1643
01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:22,080
Like actually flying?

1644
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:27,040
No, just on paper, what is your hourly number of hours worked?

1645
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:30,240
Oh, it fluctuates.

1646
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:40,680
So I'll work either five 12-hour shifts or two 12-hour shifts in a week.

1647
01:50:40,680 --> 01:50:45,920
So I guess at the end, I think at the end of the pay period, it's like 160, I should

1648
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:47,920
know this, but I don't.

1649
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:53,640
It's like 163 hours or something like that, I want to say.

1650
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:55,960
So if you got at the end of a pay period.

1651
01:50:55,960 --> 01:50:56,960
Okay.

1652
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:02,520
So yeah, so six 12s and then two 12s, that would average out at what?

1653
01:51:02,520 --> 01:51:03,920
It's not four, is it three and a half?

1654
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:05,840
I think if I got that right.

1655
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:10,920
So you're around a 40-ish hour work week on paper if you break it down.

1656
01:51:10,920 --> 01:51:12,800
Yeah, it's really close to that.

1657
01:51:12,800 --> 01:51:13,800
Okay.

1658
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:18,280
The reason I ask is just again, fire is 56, 80 hours when they're forced for another shift.

1659
01:51:18,280 --> 01:51:25,280
So it's always good to learn about all these other high stress positions where lives are

1660
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:29,640
also at stake, just so you can kind of paint the picture of how far away from it we are

1661
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:31,400
in the fire service.

1662
01:51:31,400 --> 01:51:37,440
Yeah, I think getting that good downtime and being able to reset in between shifts is really

1663
01:51:37,440 --> 01:51:38,440
important.

1664
01:51:38,440 --> 01:51:47,200
I try and I mean, we occur a lot of overtime outside of just flying.

1665
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:52,080
There's a lot of like, dignitary protection stuff where guys can hop on and make extra

1666
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:56,000
money but that can be problematic.

1667
01:51:56,000 --> 01:52:04,720
So yeah, I think enjoying your downtime and being able to actually relax and kind of reset,

1668
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:09,280
recenter and then come back in and focus is very important.

1669
01:52:09,280 --> 01:52:10,280
Absolutely.

1670
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:13,760
Well, Palm Beach County just went to 2472.

1671
01:52:13,760 --> 01:52:15,280
So I'm really excited for them.

1672
01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:20,520
I think it's going to take, I think it's two or three years that they're rolling it out,

1673
01:52:20,520 --> 01:52:24,760
but that's going to give their firefighters another 24 hours between those shifts for

1674
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:28,120
exactly what you said, more rest and recovery.

1675
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:34,760
Are they hiring?

1676
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:39,100
The funny thing is your comment is exactly what I talk about all the time because the

1677
01:52:39,100 --> 01:52:44,400
antidote of the recruitment crisis is fixing the things that are dissuading our young people

1678
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:45,600
from going.

1679
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:46,600
So yeah, absolutely.

1680
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:52,760
A 42 hour work week where you barely see any mandatory overtime is so much more appealing

1681
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:55,440
than a 56 turned 80 hour work week.

1682
01:52:55,440 --> 01:53:01,360
So your joke is actually spot on because this is what some of these agencies are seeing.

1683
01:53:01,360 --> 01:53:04,400
When they've gone to it, they're like, oh my God, this is amazing and everyone's testing

1684
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:05,640
with us now.

1685
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:11,040
So it's just a hard sell to get the naysayers to realize.

1686
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:16,480
But when a county as big as Palm goes to it, Palm Beach, I think that's going to be a real

1687
01:53:16,480 --> 01:53:22,480
kind of persuader because they can just downplay some of the small cities that have gone through.

1688
01:53:22,480 --> 01:53:27,520
Well, there are only four stations, but Palm Beach County and Pasco County up by Tampa,

1689
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:28,800
that's kind of irrefutable now.

1690
01:53:28,800 --> 01:53:32,840
If they can make it work, then your agency can make it work.

1691
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:36,000
Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

1692
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:37,000
Wow.

1693
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:38,000
Yeah.

1694
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:45,040
Yeah, I think that's always going to be just a troubling thing for law enforcement specifically.

1695
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:51,040
It's different too, especially a big county like Palm Beach, they've got to be super busy.

1696
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:52,640
They're moving and shaking the whole time.

1697
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,720
You need that extra time off.

1698
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:56,320
So yeah.

1699
01:53:56,320 --> 01:53:57,320
Absolutely.

1700
01:53:57,320 --> 01:53:58,320
All right.

1701
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:01,680
Well, I want to go to some closing questions so I can be mindful of your time and let you

1702
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:04,280
get back to your family and your German Shepherd.

1703
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:09,480
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?

1704
01:54:09,480 --> 01:54:15,840
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?

1705
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:16,920
Books that I recommend.

1706
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:25,920
So I actually, I'm kind of like a little bit of a prepper, like not a lot, but a little

1707
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:34,640
bit and there's a book series by A-American called Going Home and it's based in Florida.

1708
01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:39,160
It's about like an EMP attack on the United States, but it's based in Florida.

1709
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:46,880
So a lot of the places that he goes and travels to and deals with, it's kind of rooted in

1710
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:50,760
my backyard and like I'm very familiar with all these places.

1711
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:52,920
And so it's really fun to like hear and talk about it.

1712
01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:56,240
And then, you know, obviously I've been to Sear.

1713
01:54:56,240 --> 01:55:01,280
I try and instill in my kids, you know, how to survive, how to make fire, how to treat,

1714
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:07,840
you know, first aid, how to identify things that can hurt them.

1715
01:55:07,840 --> 01:55:10,560
So in this book, it's a lot of that.

1716
01:55:10,560 --> 01:55:15,120
It's like a lot of, you know, the tricks of the trade, things about old Florida.

1717
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:17,240
It's got some historical stuff.

1718
01:55:17,240 --> 01:55:18,880
That's part of my go-to book.

1719
01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:23,360
I like that a lot.

1720
01:55:23,360 --> 01:55:28,880
And then I really like history.

1721
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:29,880
I'll read a lot.

1722
01:55:29,880 --> 01:55:34,480
Like I've read, you know, Tommy Franks' book.

1723
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:39,640
Basically anything that has to do with flying, I'll read.

1724
01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:43,480
Autobiographies, those are all kind of enjoyable to me.

1725
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:44,760
I like learning from other people.

1726
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:48,040
I don't like to make the mistakes myself if I can help it.

1727
01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:49,040
Yeah, absolutely.

1728
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:53,120
I was having a conversation earlier with someone, you know, this is it.

1729
01:55:53,120 --> 01:56:00,040
You know, if we truly look at history and see, I would argue over and over again, the

1730
01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:06,080
tyrannical few start dividing the masses and setting them against each other, we would

1731
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:08,080
be able to avoid a lot of these conflicts.

1732
01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:13,680
We will be able to learn from predatory actions from in modern society, drug companies, fast

1733
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:17,920
food, et cetera, because these lessons have been there over and over again.

1734
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:22,720
I think that's why you see a lot of organizations downplaying history and canceling certain

1735
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:28,200
groups because, you know, if we actually all got together and really saw the glaring lessons

1736
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:34,640
from, you know, a few millennia, we'd be able to see, you know, it'd be clear the next tyrant

1737
01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:37,760
that's trying to raise up or the groups or the companies.

1738
01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:41,960
And then we as a masses, we kind of whack a mole on before they before they rose up.

1739
01:56:41,960 --> 01:56:44,160
So I think history is imperative.

1740
01:56:44,160 --> 01:56:45,160
Yeah.

1741
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:48,320
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1742
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:49,520
All right.

1743
01:56:49,520 --> 01:56:54,160
What about films and documentaries?

1744
01:56:54,160 --> 01:57:03,080
Oh, I watch a lot of Bluey now, got to be honest.

1745
01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:07,200
So which actually I do enjoy.

1746
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:14,600
You know, most of my life now is really kind of kids films, kids movies with my three daughters.

1747
01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:22,200
But we try and my wife and I try and ease them into movies that we like these kids.

1748
01:57:22,200 --> 01:57:27,000
So like Christmas just passed, we watched like Home Alone, Home Alone 2, you know, kind

1749
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:33,680
of iconic movies like when we were kids.

1750
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:36,640
I like anything with Robert Redford in it.

1751
01:57:36,640 --> 01:57:37,640
I just always have.

1752
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:41,360
I just thought that he was always just like a really great actor.

1753
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:48,840
And like Spy Game is one of my one of my favorites, Last Castle, obviously, like military and

1754
01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:50,920
CIA type movies.

1755
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:53,600
So that captures my interest.

1756
01:57:53,600 --> 01:58:03,160
But yeah, anything action, you know, whatever keeps my attention.

1757
01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:04,160
Absolutely.

1758
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:05,160
All right.

1759
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:09,160
Well, the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1760
01:58:09,160 --> 01:58:13,680
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1761
01:58:13,680 --> 01:58:14,680
world?

1762
01:58:14,680 --> 01:58:17,680
Oh, that's a good one.

1763
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,840
Other than Pat, you absolutely have to get on.

1764
01:58:21,840 --> 01:58:24,760
He's one of my favorite humans.

1765
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:26,840
Yeah.

1766
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:29,880
A buddy of mine named Chris Cameron.

1767
01:58:29,880 --> 01:58:33,860
He's another Florida boy.

1768
01:58:33,860 --> 01:58:36,320
He's got an exceptional story.

1769
01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:40,340
He's learned a lot of life lessons.

1770
01:58:40,340 --> 01:58:46,320
And he's done everything from playing football in college, being a law enforcement officer

1771
01:58:46,320 --> 01:58:50,960
to being a pilot, starting different companies as an entrepreneur.

1772
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:54,520
Very, very knowledgeable guy.

1773
01:58:54,520 --> 01:58:57,240
Yeah, he would be super interesting.

1774
01:58:57,240 --> 01:59:00,400
He just climbed, I forget the peak.

1775
01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:04,080
That's the one in Argentina.

1776
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:07,600
It's like the second highest in the world or something.

1777
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:08,600
Is it Monsu Pichu?

1778
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:09,600
Is it that one?

1779
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:10,600
I don't know.

1780
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:13,600
I probably butchered that name anyway.

1781
01:59:13,600 --> 01:59:20,160
He did that and then now he's in like, he's in Tahiti like right now diving and he had

1782
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,120
like a shark diving company.

1783
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:24,840
He's just a very interesting guy.

1784
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:29,120
But he's turned into a fast friend of mine.

1785
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:31,080
He would be a great guy to have on.

1786
01:59:31,080 --> 01:59:32,080
Beautiful.

1787
01:59:32,080 --> 01:59:34,200
Well, I'd love to if you can make that happen.

1788
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:36,040
Yeah, absolutely.

1789
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:38,400
I would love to introduce you guys.

1790
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:39,400
Phenomenal.

1791
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:40,400
All right.

1792
01:59:40,400 --> 01:59:42,880
Well, then the very last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you

1793
01:59:42,880 --> 01:59:44,760
and HeloTac.

1794
01:59:44,760 --> 01:59:51,320
What do you do to decompress?

1795
01:59:51,320 --> 02:00:01,240
I have a 35-minute drive back and forth to work and on my drive home, I listen to actually

1796
02:00:01,240 --> 02:00:07,720
listen to Christian radio and I just kind of like zone out and kind of listen to the

1797
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:08,720
words.

1798
02:00:08,720 --> 02:00:13,160
It's just some great messages as well as like just good tunes now like Christian radio isn't

1799
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:15,040
what it used to be.

1800
02:00:15,040 --> 02:00:20,160
It's like actually some pretty good great music actually.

1801
02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:26,960
But if I listen to the words and remind myself that what I just experienced at work is just

1802
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:32,200
work and all the super important things in my life are going to be past the threshold

1803
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:36,000
of my front door, that is what I do.

1804
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:43,500
And I get home and I just if I can remember that, if I can focus enough on my way home

1805
02:00:43,500 --> 02:00:48,760
and I can put all that stuff behind me, that's what I do.

1806
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:51,280
I love just playing with my kids.

1807
02:00:51,280 --> 02:00:58,160
I love showing them the experiences that I had when I was a kid and I love seeing my

1808
02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:04,360
wife's face light up when they learn something new or when they do something new and incredible

1809
02:01:04,360 --> 02:01:10,000
where at that phase like where our three-year-old will pronounce a word correctly that she didn't

1810
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:19,000
last week or our almost nine-year-old will do something on a balance beam bar or just

1811
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:27,160
jump around on trampoline and do something cool and that's really my that's how I decompress

1812
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:30,520
or I fly or I just take off.

1813
02:01:30,520 --> 02:01:34,640
I don't have a mission and I just do some training or something.

1814
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:36,440
That's always been kind of like my cheap place.

1815
02:01:36,440 --> 02:01:40,360
If I wasn't on the water with family, that's what I like to do.

1816
02:01:40,360 --> 02:01:41,360
Brilliant.

1817
02:01:41,360 --> 02:01:42,360
All right.

1818
02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:47,480
Well then if people listening want to find you online social media or HeloTac, where

1819
02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:48,720
are the best places to go?

1820
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:55,400
If you want like a personal experience, the Helo Man was that's my Instagram and that's

1821
02:01:55,400 --> 02:01:59,240
kind of like got more of like my fun stuff.

1822
02:01:59,240 --> 02:02:04,320
HeloTac on Instagram and then helotacair.com and that kind of just outlines like some of

1823
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:09,240
the programs that we have which I think people will find are probably a little more unique

1824
02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:10,720
than something else that they could get.

1825
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:17,800
But yeah, me and the other guys, we love supporting other people.

1826
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:20,040
We're all about building up our community.

1827
02:02:20,040 --> 02:02:24,280
So if people want to reach out, whatever, if they want to collaborate, it doesn't have

1828
02:02:24,280 --> 02:02:25,760
to be a thing.

1829
02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:31,000
We just promote people that we think are doing good things and that's really to me, that's

1830
02:02:31,000 --> 02:02:32,000
the best part.

1831
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:33,320
That's how we keep each other safe.

1832
02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:35,440
They say we keep each other alive.

1833
02:02:35,440 --> 02:02:39,560
We increase our operational capabilities.

1834
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:41,000
That's the whole point.

1835
02:02:41,000 --> 02:02:48,640
That's why we can be here is to build each other up as humans, help be successful and

1836
02:02:48,640 --> 02:02:50,200
that's what I want to continue to do.

1837
02:02:50,200 --> 02:02:51,560
So yeah, reach out.

1838
02:02:51,560 --> 02:02:53,120
Let's do something fun.

1839
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:54,120
Brilliant.

1840
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:55,680
Well, I want to thank you so much.

1841
02:02:55,680 --> 02:02:57,760
It's been such an amazing conversation.

1842
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:03,800
Your journey from again, military law enforcement, the special operations community has been

1843
02:03:03,800 --> 02:03:05,080
absolutely fascinating.

1844
02:03:05,080 --> 02:03:08,840
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1845
02:03:08,840 --> 02:03:10,560
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1846
02:03:10,560 --> 02:03:12,600
It's a real pleasure.

1847
02:03:12,600 --> 02:03:13,600
This is a lot of fun.

1848
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:28,280
Thank you so much.