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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast,

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and that is Rescue 1 CBD.

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For any of you who have listened to this podcast for the last eight years, you will have heard

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my own personal journey from using prescription pills after a knee surgery to finding CBD

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and having incredible success with that.

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I then saw my son's wheezing diminish, my wife's anxiety, and so many more kind of success

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stories.

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The problem is though, I've also seen the stigma and misunderstanding about this incredibly

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powerful plant medicine.

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When it comes to workplace drug testing, it's THC that they are looking for.

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The concentration is higher in marijuana, but there is a small amount in most CBD products.

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And with John being a veteran firefighter paramedic himself, he was determined to find

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a product that was pure that would ensure there was nothing in there that would put

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someone's career at risk.

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So he developed a three tier system.

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The third party testing facility tests to parts per billion, which is the most minute

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amount I have ever heard of in all the time I've worked with CBD.

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The results of every batch are posted on their website so you can literally see the same

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results that they see from the batch that you are ordering.

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Secondly, they include workplace drug test kits in the order when you order it.

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So if you have any fears, you get to do it just to appease it, even though this is a

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pure and safe product.

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Thirdly, they've just finished a year long study with the University of Maryland and

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Arcadia University, and firefighters from all over the country sent in their urine samples

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and not a single person failed a drug test.

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So you have three different tiers of trust with this particular product.

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Now they have different flavors for their CBD.

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For anyone that's had it that's just the CBD oil, it does not taste good, so they found

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a way of making it more palatable.

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They have a sleep remedy that has terpenes in, again, completely safe.

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That one's called out of service.

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And then topical CBD, obviously for aches and pains on the outside.

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Now on top of all that, Rescue 1 is offering you, the listener of the Behind the Shield

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podcast, 15% off your order if you use the code BTS, as in behind the shield.

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by going to rescue1cbd.com.

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And you can listen to my conversation with John on episode 1011 of the Behind the Shield

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podcast.

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This episode is sponsored by Team Builder, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impress me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library, so you, the personal trainer, does not have

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to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career.

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Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.

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Now if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder.com.

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And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.

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T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

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This episode is sponsored by Global Medical Response, yet another sponsor that I have tracked

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down because they have a solution to one of the biggest problems we have in emergency

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medicine and health care.

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We often hear the term 911 abuse, but what I love is the concept that this should be

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a three tier system, ALS, BLS, and then the non-emergent element.

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With the evolution of telehealth and telemedicine, that third tier is now possible virtually.

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In 2018, Global Medical Response pioneered 911 nurse navigation.

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In communities across the country, GMR's nurse navigators use evidence-based clinical protocols

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to screen a patient's current condition, providing an appropriate resource to meet the patient's

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unique health care needs, whether that's dispatching a rideshare to an urgent care, an appointment

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at a federally qualified health center, or virtual care with a physician on the spot.

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The five level screening system ensures patients receive the right resource at the right time

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in the right setting to achieve the right outcome at the right cost.

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So as a huge advocate for our first responders' health and of course the people that we serve,

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this solves three issues.

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It allows the patient to have a far less expensive option when it comes to their non-emergent

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issue.

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It stops a firefighter or a paramedic being woken up for that call, and it frees up an

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ER bed for a true emergency.

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So if you want to hear more about how GMR can integrate nurse navigation in your 911

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system, listen to episode 998 with Joshua Rose and Dr. Jared Troutman, or go to globalmedicalresponse.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show strength and conditioning coach and Golden Eagles hotshot Justin DeMoss.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the world

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of coaching, training the tactical athlete, the unique challenges of the wildland firefighter,

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mental health, the impact on our seasonal firefighters, the incredible tools Hotshot

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Wellness are offering, their upcoming summit, and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Justin DeMoss.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Justin, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, thanks so much for the opportunity.

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It's a great time to talk about the topic of health and wellness, and I'm really appreciative

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of your platform and all that you do for the first responder community.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you today?

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Now I'm back in Southern California.

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A few months ago, could have been anywhere.

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So yeah, glad it's a little bit more stable for me now and I can do things like this.

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So I love to start the very beginning of your journey because you've got quite an unusual

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route into ultimately the wildland fire service.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Cool.

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So yeah, born and raised in Camarillo, California.

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It's in Ventura County, super chill, calm, very ideal place for people to raise kids,

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I imagine.

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And I pretty much had a very similar route of upbringings from all my friends around

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me.

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We just grew up playing sports, really cool family dynamics, very small scale city, like

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where you know everybody everywhere you go, you see similar people and faces.

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And it's a very cool place just to develop a lot of fun attributes as a kid where you

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just get to go outside and play and see your friends and just stay outside all the time.

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So I was really blessed with a cool upbringing where I had constant cool social interactions

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and was moving my body out in nature.

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It was a really sweet environment for me.

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And I have a pretty small family, so we were all pretty tight knit, I would say.

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But overall, I spent most of my time just studying and playing sports.

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And that was cool.

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It was like kind of tunnel vision.

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You just don't really know what the world has to offer at that age when you're just

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so in that state where it's just all academics, all sports.

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Like you have this gold grand vision of going to a college and playing a sport and getting

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a scholarship.

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That was kind of the route that I found myself in.

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I played football, basketball, ran a little bit of track, but was really never going to

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amount to anything in terms of making money off those things.

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I just really enjoyed them.

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It was really cool for me.

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And that's kind of like the intro track to my field and human movement and my passions

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for sports performance and what led me to study the field that I did.

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But I, like many other individuals, early on in their careers had a major setback.

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I first play of the first scrimmage of my senior year in high school, snapped my ankle,

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was out the entire season.

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Probably was the first time I experienced anything traumatic like that mentally.

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I was very depressed.

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Couldn't move much.

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Was just rehabbing and sidelined.

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It was a really amazing thing that it amounted to because it required me to have these existential

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thoughts of what is life?

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What am I here for?

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What's my purpose?

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And that kind of made me really spark the new interest that I had in career fields of

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what do I do?

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PT, OT, strength and conditioning.

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I was always fascinated with movement and I wanted to help people.

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So it made me find the path of kinesiology.

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I probably explored every type of route within exercise science, human movement.

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And I hope to be an advocate for individuals to explore that path and the diverse fields

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that it accompanies because I feel like a lot of kids with that type of scenario go

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in and feel boxed.

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Like kinesiology kind of can be very monotonous at times if you just look at it from like

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a physical therapy standpoint, which that's the original route that I had.

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And then I found out so many other cool realms to dive into and what an amazing field it

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was as a whole.

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And I've slowly just finessed my way into a very niche avenue, which I'm sure we'll

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touch on later.

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But that's just like basic overview, kind of like my background, how I got into this

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realm in the first place and the dynamics that I grew up in.

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When you look back now, what is your perception of the pressures of a student athlete when

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it comes to scholarships?

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And the reason I asked that, I watched my son who ran track, I think he ran his, was

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it last year?

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The first two years.

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So freshman and sophomore year, if I got that right.

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And by the sophomore year, he was running the mile in under five minutes.

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So he's doing well, not smashing any world records yet, but certainly in a great trajectory.

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But he had a kind of overuse injury and really had a kind of psychological crisis.

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And I think what became apparent to him is he was running for a scholarship, not running

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for as you touched on the love of the sports.

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When you look at this whole kind of spectrum now, what do you kind of, what are you observing

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as far as where that passion is healthy and maybe where there's undue stress on some of

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our young people on this need to secure a scholarship through, whether it's academia

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or sports?

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That's a fantastic topic, and I think if you were to ask me that question 10 years ago,

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it's a completely different landscape.

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Like when I, when I was leaving high school, I started to see social media becoming such

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a huge role player in the lives of kids such as myself.

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And just like people were playing sports for almost the most extrinsically based reasons.

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It was like, I wanted to get an education and gain a scholarship.

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I wouldn't consider those unhealthy motives and things that could come as a consequence

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of dedication and hard work.

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But I found a lot of individuals in the dialogue that I was exposed to trending in the direction

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of I want to get on highlight reels.

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I want people to see me.

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I want to go out and play the best so that like I can gain this fame, fandom exposure

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and get on social media.

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And I think that's a really critical derailing of the natural positive traits that sports

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embody, like team dynamics, communication, dedicate, like loyalty to a program, like

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all these things that should be developed at these high school level operations now

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become very individualized where kids are maybe trying to think a little bit more on

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like the what's in it for me.

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How can I do best for myself?

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How can I set myself up the best to succeed?

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And I think it's just a it's a beautiful time to develop more of a leadership quality aspect

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to your to your way of being as well as just a communal sense of achievement rather than

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personal gain.

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You have your entire life to achieve personal success.

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And I really I valued growing up in a small city where we had a really old school head

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coaches that they didn't they were not about that.

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They were very strict and like ingrained it in us that you are a small piece of a large

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mission.

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And that was just really developed a communal sense of we're all here to serve each other.

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We're all here.

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We're in the weight room to better our chances for the team success, not our own.

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We're not trying to go to the weight room to get big muscles and show off to the rest

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of the world.

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We're not going out on the field to go make a highlight real catch.

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We're there to win a championship.

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We're there for the pride of our city.

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Like it was a really cool program to be a part of in Camarillo.

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And I'm thankful for the small city, small dynamic, old school way of thinking that accompany

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it.

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And I don't know if that is particularly the same scenario now.

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I'm not that involved, but I imagine that the trends across the United States and in

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other international regions to many kids probably aren't being exposed to those same circumstances.

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But even at the level of youth sports, it's kind of just atrocious to see this isolated

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like the phenomenon of single sport athletes at age eight is dumbfounding.

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That is like the worst route I could ever imagine from a physical development standpoint,

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a mental development standpoint.

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Just every type of characteristic that sports can play in your life is now being funneled

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into success and quantitative outcomes, like instead of passion and love for the game and

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all these other soft skills that prove more vital as you grow up.

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So I love sports and there's tremendous positives, but I sadly see those positives being outweighed

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by the current landscape of what kids value and what they deem successful because of the

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involvement in social media that's probably transpired for them.

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I see a lot of Uncle Rico's living vicariously through their children too.

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And I mean that again with empathy because it's just something that you've been groomed

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to be that way.

242
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But I've talked about this quite a lot on the podcast, but it's interesting because

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it's always the same response just like you've talked about when you speak to high level

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coaches that work with all these teams.

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They're constantly talking about these overuse injuries and these young people and the burnout

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mentally too.

247
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And so all the good coaches are saying, no, you should play sports.

248
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You should love the game first.

249
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And then if you are going to excel in that game, you will emerge.

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But where I think it's done a lot of damage is when I first came to the States, I kept

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meeting these like 20, 30 somethings.

252
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I would have been in the NFL, the NHL or whatever if it wasn't for insert injury here, slapped

253
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hair, you know, MCL ACL.

254
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And now they're deconditioned.

255
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Now they're obese and they're on fricking insulin or whatever the thing is.

256
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And so I think where we've done a lot of damage is we've forced this excellence.

257
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We've squeezed performance out of our high school and college kids at the expense of

258
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their longevity.

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And like you said, absolutely there are things that people gain from that teamwork, hard

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work, being uncomfortable, all these things.

261
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But there is a middle ground line where you can still win championships, but then that

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athlete can go on and live a healthy life, continue to enjoy playing sport and then take

263
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those assets and apply it somewhere else in life.

264
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Absolutely.

265
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I couldn't agree more.

266
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And that is kind of the sole reason for my shift away from sport performance in an athletic

267
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setting into more of wanting to serve first responders because it was fun to work with

268
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athletes.

269
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It was an honor to work with the individuals that I did and see like the feats of human

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capabilities on display on a daily basis.

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I was very fortunate to work at Sports Academy, an area where we got constant flow of collegiate

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professional athletes, high level individuals.

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And it's like kidding a candy store for somebody who's in exercise science, learning all these

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principles and being able to apply them with individuals with the unlimited potential to

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take advantage of these methods.

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It's not like I was constrained at all with the audience I was able to work with.

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So it was amazing, but I never felt like I was doing the world any service by getting

278
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these genetic freaks to be 1% better.

279
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It was like, we're all here on a mission to get this group of X amount of athletes to

280
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get their vertical jump an inch higher or to get their 225 bench press a couple reps

281
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more so that they can make an extra 200,000 on their draft placement order.

282
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It's like, this is all cool, but it's again, extrinsically motivated causes for these individuals.

283
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I'm sure like a handful of them really had an intrinsic love for the game, but it just

284
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felt like there was always something missing with my purpose in that field.

285
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And I feel like that trends in parallel some of the things that we're bringing up with

286
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like the youth sports, adolescence all the way into adulthood.

287
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It's like, it's fun to love sports.

288
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There's amazing things that can come out of that.

289
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The triumph, the success stories, people can be uplifted by sports, but I just found myself

290
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in this cycle of thought of, man, we're really not doing anything here.

291
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It's not going towards any worldly matters.

292
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Nothing of consequences happening as a result of this.

293
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And it's kind of just very businessy.

294
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And that's not why I love sports.

295
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That's not why I fell into it.

296
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And I saw a deeper passion when working with individuals like police, military, fire, and

297
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a population that I could make a meaningful impact on.

298
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So it's, and I've never really turned back, still love sports, but it's not the population

299
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that needs the needs to help the most.

300
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I did the exercise, excuse me.

301
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,740
I did sports science and fitness evaluation in university of North London.

302
00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:32,160
And then just a few years ago, I did my exercise physiology BA in the university of Florida.

303
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When I came, well, it sounds great.

304
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This is the problem.

305
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:40,960
When I came away from each of those, especially after finishing at UF, I kind of reflected

306
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like none of these really gave me the tools to actually coach well.

307
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The only thing, the only real thing that I took away is one of my first semesters at

308
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:57,080
UF, we basically did an entire semester on all the preparation for the NSCA CSCS.

309
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That was a great class because at the end of it, if you wanted to, was a certification

310
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that you could then go and start training.

311
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But it's interesting.

312
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,520
A lot of people that have gone through the sports science, exercise physiology roots

313
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have said the same thing.

314
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:14,400
It almost prepares you to stay in an academic setting and then study sports science as opposed

315
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,880
to then apply it to the professions that most of us want to go into.

316
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,120
What route did you take academically and how did it prepare you for the actual coaching

317
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,120
itself?

318
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:27,480
Yeah, that's a great question.

319
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,040
It's definitely a hidden dilemma within any of the human movement fields, whether you're

320
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:38,000
studying motor control, biomechanics, physiology, any of these things that you study in undergrad.

321
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:45,000
I feel like prepare you with a decent broad set of skills to then go specialize in some

322
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,000
other realm.

323
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,280
After undergraduate, just based on my observation of my cohort, it didn't leave a lot of people

324
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,560
with a direct route to success.

325
00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:01,460
One thing that I had a great context building up to my university setting when I went to

326
00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:07,200
Long Beach State, I went to community college and had two years where I was able to do internships,

327
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,320
volunteer, get a really good deep dive into various fields and settings and fine tune

328
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,920
the kind of environment I wanted to be in career wise.

329
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,960
That's how I found myself at sports academy, which was just a luxury.

330
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It was right in my backyard.

331
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,280
I was able to do their internship program, become like entry level exercise instructor

332
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,360
and move my way up all the way to like being a full strength conditioning coach by the

333
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,880
end of my academic career where I was working and being able to take on high level athletes

334
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,440
or teams or just kind of groomed myself into being the best strength conditioning coach

335
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:48,000
because I was surrounded by just high caliber individuals, dudes who, guys and girls who

336
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,840
had degrees and certifications and licenses and had worked with pro athletes, had been

337
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,160
contracted by international professional teams and things.

338
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,120
It's like the culture really shaped my view of excellence in this field.

339
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,880
It was cool to be in an environment that pushed that so heavily.

340
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,240
We're like, if I'm not on the top of my game, I'm going to get fired.

341
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,480
There's way too many people applying for these positions.

342
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,720
There's way too many people that would kill to have this job.

343
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,120
Every single day when I went to work, every program that I made, every consultation I

344
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:23,620
had, every assessment that I had, it was like, this needs to be as if there was a researcher

345
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:27,880
looking at this process or there was like a PhD looking at this process or a physician

346
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,000
looking at this process because those all existed under the same roof.

347
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:38,600
The highest level individuals in their respective fields all had eyes on what you were doing.

348
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,200
All that I had the experience of by the time I was 20 years old and went to Long Beach

349
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,760
State to then go study.

350
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,280
It was like, wow, what a two-year experience where most people that went off to college

351
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:58,680
after high school just joined frats and sororities and drank and went to parties and had GE classes.

352
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:05,120
That's fun and all, but it was a very amazing return on investment for me with those internships,

353
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:10,840
the setting I was in and allowed me to really thrive in my undergraduate setting and leave

354
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,360
and go on to my graduate studies with a clear headspace of the impact I wanted to make,

355
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:20,360
the skills I needed to develop to make that impact.

356
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:26,200
When I talked to advisors and other individuals, I came across as very immature for my age

357
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,720
because I had a direct route in my head of what I wanted to do.

358
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,840
I already had done the work for them.

359
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:33,840
You don't need to guide me.

360
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,160
I just need you to put me in places to succeed.

361
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,600
That was an amazing developmental stage for me.

362
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,720
I'm a huge advocate for community college for that reason.

363
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,280
I just felt like I was able to, even though I only had two years of undergrad at a university

364
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:53,600
level, I maximized everything out of those two years and just took my abilities and success

365
00:24:53,600 --> 00:25:02,480
to new limits because I came in as a mature adult at that point, on the surface at least.

366
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,760
That's my direct route into academia in my graduate studies.

367
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:13,600
I still went to Long Beach State and studied exercise science, but yeah, it was probably

368
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,240
my favorite program, my advisor, Dr. Valenzuela, one of my favorite individuals on the planet

369
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,160
because he allowed for just complete creative freedom.

370
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,120
There's a lot of graduate studies that box you in to what their lab is doing.

371
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:33,120
This is an individual who gave me complete autonomy over what I wanted to study, backed

372
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,160
me every step of the way.

373
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,840
When I told him I wanted to study hotshots, he said, I don't even know what those are.

374
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,920
I was like, okay, I have an uphill battle here.

375
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,760
I'm not going to a university where I have resources and connections, but that just because

376
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:56,640
of the nicheness of the population, the under-representation, the difficulty of reaching out, the barriers

377
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,680
to getting involved with them, and just overall just kept hearing this rhetoric of these guys

378
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,680
are nuts.

379
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:04,680
These guys are crazy.

380
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,400
They put in work more than any other first responder population.

381
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,880
They do it without any recognition.

382
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,240
I was just infatuated with the concept and was like, I'm going to help these people whether

383
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,240
they want it or not.

384
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,840
I'm going to beat down doors.

385
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,760
I'm going to go and camp out in my truck.

386
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,680
I'll do whatever I need to do to collect data on these individuals.

387
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:30,440
It just became a passion for me to want to serve them, even though it was very much barrier

388
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,240
ridden at first.

389
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,480
How would you heard about them prior?

390
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,720
Did you have any exposure to fires in your area?

391
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,680
I'm thinking Ventura burns quite a bit too, or was it through that municipal route that

392
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,080
you were talking about?

393
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,960
I have a really good buddy in Cameroon.

394
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,160
His name is Cody Tim.

395
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:55,000
He was on the Ventura County Hand Crew for a few years, and he exposed me to the population

396
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,000
just through our dialogue as friends.

397
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:04,440
He went and detailed on a hotshot crew in the Los Padres forest and got absolutely rocked.

398
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,640
He was on a type two crew and he was doing really well.

399
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,400
I'm assuming he was put in a position where it was like, yeah, you're going to succeed.

400
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,400
You've been doing really well.

401
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,200
You're going detailed on this crew and put in some work, go for an assignment.

402
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,400
He said he'd never experienced the workload that was present on that fire.

403
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:35,800
He had never seen people hike with those kinds of demands, loads, terrains, elevations.

404
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:41,640
The demands of the fire were crazy and it was just hot and crazy and miserable and the

405
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,320
work never stopped and he ended up just having such a rude awakening for the shift in demands

406
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:53,840
between his assignments on that type two crew and the up level of demands from the hotshot

407
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,840
experience.

408
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,680
That really, him talking about that provoked this thought of, in a nutshell, anecdotally

409
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,440
was like, these guys are superhuman and you should study them.

410
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,480
I was like, yes, that's who I want to study.

411
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,480
That's amazing.

412
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,040
I got to learn more and see what they're all about.

413
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,880
It was a really hard initial reach out.

414
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,520
I had to go, every person that I talked to would not talk to me without seeing me.

415
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,800
I had to go to the station.

416
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,480
It's always miles out in the middle of nowhere.

417
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:27,920
I was throwing rocks in my Jansport backpack and just going on hikes with these crews and

418
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,560
they're like, who is this guy?

419
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,320
What does he want?

420
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,600
It just was always very weird at first, but then as soon as you throw down a really good

421
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,880
hike time and you keep up with the crew, it becomes a level playing field.

422
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,600
I think that's something that holds true for the population as I've dove in deeper.

423
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:53,160
If you can work, if you can go through the sucked, if you can just be gritty and just,

424
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,880
I don't know, humbly get stuff done and go through pain and persevere, it levels out

425
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,840
whatever race, color, ethnicity, sex, religion, any demographic variable you can think of

426
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,880
doesn't matter if you can work.

427
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,000
I really value that about this population.

428
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,720
That's one of my favorite aspects of working with these individuals is just the, let's

429
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,520
shut up, we're quiet, humble professionals and we just like to work.

430
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,800
I think that's commendable.

431
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,680
You mentioned about looking into the data.

432
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,220
One of the things that I've discovered in the fire service, at the municipal fire service,

433
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:35,040
for example, is that there are some areas that they love to research, flow patterns

434
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,880
and nozzles and ventilation and all those things, which absolutely have a point.

435
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,040
But when it comes to the wellness of the firefighter, there's some on cancer, but again, they're

436
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,000
focusing just on carcinogens.

437
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,280
There's some on mental health, but they're focusing on what we saw.

438
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,880
There's all these areas where people really just didn't want to touch, like for example,

439
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,680
shift work, sleep deprivation.

440
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,440
There's a barren landscape of no data.

441
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:06,200
When you looked into the world of firefighting and hotshots specifically, where were the

442
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,560
strengths as far as research and where were the deficits at that point?

443
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,920
Yeah.

444
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:19,240
So I think in the last 20 years, there's been a huge uptick in research with wildland firefighters

445
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,680
in particular.

446
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,640
Before that, it was definitely like, I would find studies that were very heavily cited,

447
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,000
privately utilized studies, kind of just a lot of introductory information about the

448
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,280
demands of wildland firefighting.

449
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:40,760
And that has grown into a very clear view of the demands as of the recent years.

450
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:46,640
There's enough research and literature to support the bioenergetics demands, the kinematic

451
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:52,360
and kinetic demands on the injuries falls, the different epidemiologies that exist among

452
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,220
wildland firefighting.

453
00:30:54,220 --> 00:31:00,120
There's a good amount of information of the tolls that this population faces after multiple,

454
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,120
like five, 10, 15 year careers.

455
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,120
We know a lot about the acute demands in terms of calorie expenditure, types of fueling that

456
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:13,920
should be undertaken for various job types of assignments, the kinds of hikes and durations

457
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,000
and patterns that we see between hotshot crews, type 2IA, type 2 crews.

458
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:25,060
There's a handful of, there's a gauntlet of literature that could, that directly kind

459
00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:30,680
of assesses what's going on among this population from a physical standpoint.

460
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:37,560
And I believe I have a fair amount of contacts within academia and we all seem to have the

461
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,360
same dialogue where we acknowledge that this literature is there.

462
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,520
Now we just need to find a way to implement strategies and get the resources out there

463
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,000
to the population of the correct courses of action.

464
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,000
How do you fuel?

465
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,240
How do you hydrate?

466
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,200
How should you train in the off season?

467
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,280
How should you maintain and recover throughout the season?

468
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:03,120
So getting the right practitioners in play to interpret that literature and provide

469
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,440
the unique solutions and education to the population is kind of where I see the next

470
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,360
steps.

471
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,560
Because it's taken decades and decades of analysis to understand those demands and now

472
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:20,040
we kind of have a relatively decent idea of them from a physical standpoint.

473
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,160
But when we look at this, like the population from a mental health standpoint, that's still,

474
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:32,000
I feel like very new because you look at this population, that's a topic that was hushed

475
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,240
and pushed down for the entirety of as long as hotshots have existed.

476
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,520
That's part of kind of the tradition.

477
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,360
If you're having problems, keep them internal.

478
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,400
Nobody complains, nobody talks.

479
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,880
It follows a similar stigma as other first responder populations, but magnitude is higher

480
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:57,040
because these individuals are now out in the wilderness for weeks on end, minimal communication

481
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,800
with their family and friends.

482
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:04,120
And now you're just only surrounded by a network of individuals who breathe this culture of

483
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,000
shut up, don't complain, don't talk about your feelings, don't talk about your issues.

484
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,400
And you feel like you have to suppress that for six months out of your year.

485
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,920
And then they come home and it's a complete shift where they don't necessarily feel like

486
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,580
they want to bring all that to their family members or their friends.

487
00:33:22,580 --> 00:33:25,440
Maybe they feel like they're burdening them by talking about it.

488
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,700
So now you're talking about a population who for years and years and years is undergoing

489
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:38,240
a ton of potentially traumatic events, moral injury, a lot of negative things, dialogue

490
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,160
being perpetuated.

491
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:46,360
And I don't know, a lot of individuals who maybe don't fall in the perfect category for

492
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760
wildland fire where you don't fit into the environment perfectly.

493
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,320
Let's say you're a part of any marginalized group.

494
00:33:52,320 --> 00:34:01,120
I can't even imagine being a person in a LGBTQ community or being a female on a hotshot crew

495
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,080
in like the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s.

496
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:11,680
Even now it's still, there's a, I'm imagining that in the next 10, 20 years with the emphasis

497
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,120
on mental health awareness, understanding the toll that it's taking on individuals with

498
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,960
outcomes like suicide rates, like major depressive disorder, anxiety scores, like all these things

499
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:28,080
to point to how big of a magnitude the toll is on the mental aspects of this job.

500
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,280
I hope that in a select amount of years, we're in the same position.

501
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,640
We're like, we understand what's plaguing the community and now it's time to take action.

502
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,720
Now it's time to implement the resources, get the practitioners involved.

503
00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:46,880
And hopefully by then the efforts like what hotshot wellness is doing, like what grassroots

504
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,040
is doing, like the Eric Marsh foundation, like the list goes on.

505
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,000
There's all these amazing entities advocating for it.

506
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,160
And it's a really cool time period that I've been able to find my way into because it's

507
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,920
a conversation that's at least happening.

508
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,240
Like these individuals in high level positions like superintendents, like captains, they're

509
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:14,560
aware of it and they're much more open to finding out strategies and ways to help their

510
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,580
crew members and expose these issues rather than maybe even 10 years ago.

511
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:25,240
It might've been hard to find somebody who was bringing these up in fire camps, bringing

512
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:31,040
these up at these meetings with other superintendents at these government level, high agency meetings

513
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,520
talking about these problems.

514
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:40,280
So as disheartening as it is to see the statistics, I feel like it's a very optimistic context

515
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:46,440
of a year that I've had just seeing how many individuals want to talk about it and want

516
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,760
to change the narrative.

517
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,680
I think what's an interesting dynamic about wild land as well that I've heard people like

518
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,020
Ben Stron talk about is the seasonal nature.

519
00:35:56,020 --> 00:36:00,260
So you have these men and women, they become extremely cohesive.

520
00:36:00,260 --> 00:36:04,240
They have this purpose, they have this tribe, even though as we'll get into, there are some

521
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,760
negative stresses involved as well.

522
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,640
And then the full-time people obviously go back to their camp and continue to work the

523
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,560
rest of the year, but the seasonal people now, now they're done and now they've lost

524
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,560
that tribe.

525
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:17,560
They lost that purpose.

526
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,800
They lost their paycheck.

527
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,240
And so I think where I've seen it kind of mirrored is when you watch some of those like

528
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:27,640
crab fishing shows, for all those months they're on the boat and they're working their asses

529
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,000
off, but you can tell there's a kind of cohesion to it.

530
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,080
And then you hear the same thing with a lot of those professions, then they go back and

531
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,280
then there's addiction and alcoholism.

532
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,960
We're supposed to be part of something, but to be part of something and then be told,

533
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,280
okay, now you've got to leave, I can see how that's just an added stressor that really

534
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,400
amplifies the mental health challenges they're already having.

535
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,120
A million percent.

536
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,800
I've only been on one crew and I can only speak for the dynamic within that crew, but

537
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,160
it consists of a lot of individuals that love to work.

538
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,880
They go crazy when they're not working.

539
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,720
It's this weird dichotomy where you're going from even like looking throughout the shifts

540
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:18,840
in the season that we had, there were assignments where there was constant work and things to

541
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:24,760
do and you were outside, you were moving and it's like fairly, I don't know, you're torn

542
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,680
physically from some of the workloads, obviously.

543
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,040
It's different stressors, but that's the stuff these people love, like going and pushing

544
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,040
their bodies to the limit.

545
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:40,280
Looking out in nature and just absolutely getting worked to death every day, but then

546
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,960
looking at the end of your day at a product that's so cool and you accomplish so much,

547
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,400
that's where I imagine a lot of this population finds their happy place.

548
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,040
But at the same time, at the end of the season when those assignments are slow, when you're

549
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,200
just sitting in the buggy or you're staging and you're just left with your thoughts in

550
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,840
the middle of nowhere with no service and you don't now have this screen, you can just

551
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,960
flick and occupy your time with what happens in the internal environment of the mind.

552
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:16,500
So I think that as I saw that season trend that way and things slowed down and individuals

553
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:21,360
had a hard time, I mean, I had a hard time, anybody would have a hard time, but I came

554
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,520
from a background where it was a very integral part of my practice to find stillness, find

555
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:32,480
presence, develop more, I'm really into meditation and mindfulness and journaling and overall

556
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,360
just like looking at the landscapes and being in peace.

557
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:43,200
I found ways to really be optimistic with my setting and find an opportunity to practice

558
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,400
and develop more of a sense of the things I wanted to grow with internally.

559
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:53,720
So I was able to have a decent time and make the most of that situation, but definitely

560
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:58,400
was apparent to me of the discomfort that several individuals and most of the crew probably

561
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,600
was experiencing when you're just left there to sit and find things to do because now you've

562
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,400
had this mind that's just hyper stimulated and you love it and your body's moving and

563
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,480
now you have to accommodate a complete redirection of your environment.

564
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,880
So now thinking about six months where these individuals don't, maybe some of them work,

565
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,120
but I imagine a handful of them don't and you're just maybe alone in your house and

566
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,840
it's quiet and there's no work to be done and maybe you don't have the like drive to

567
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,680
go out and kill your body because you just went through it for six months.

568
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:37,200
Giving those individuals the opportunity to utilize that space, that time period towards

569
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:43,200
mentally healthy avenues is critical because I imagine that if there's no intention behind

570
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:49,400
it, your mind is going to run rampant, go down a dark hole and just this inner dialogue

571
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,520
can just go down a very negative path, a very destructive path.

572
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:59,680
So I think there's beautiful opportunities to make this career positive for personal

573
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:04,640
development, professional development, health overall, but it needs to have intention behind

574
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:10,380
it because left alone, I think it's setting a lot of individuals up with not the most

575
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:16,560
direct course on how to navigate the uniqueness of a yearly schedule that it brings.

576
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:23,660
What are you seeing as far as if you've seen any trends in the reduction of staffing versus

577
00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:26,840
the physical and mental health outcomes?

578
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,760
Yeah, since I've only been involved for a limited time, it's hard for me to be like

579
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,840
the best spokesperson for long-term trends and retention, the types of individuals who

580
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:44,000
are leaving for what reasons, but from just dialogue that I've heard broadly, it seems

581
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:51,600
like it's being like the pay, the benefits, the overall context of the lives that individuals

582
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:58,200
are leading, weave them into more routes of going municipal, going towards county crews,

583
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:04,080
like leaving the federal services just because of the lack of sustainability for having a

584
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,720
family, having a wife, you're spending so much time away.

585
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:13,540
It's extremely, what would I say, attractive to look at other departments and other realms

586
00:41:13,540 --> 00:41:17,480
of fire that pay you well, you get to be home more.

587
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:24,280
I think there's amazing benefits that go along with working from more of a federal standpoint

588
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,560
and the environment that it breathes, the types of assignments you can go on.

589
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,760
The adventure is just insane.

590
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,520
I'll never be able to experience this with any other job and that's no questions asked.

591
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,720
I think anybody who works for the Forest Service, National Park Service, BIA, anybody on a hand

592
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:43,960
crew, anybody doing wildland, going on these assignments six months out of the year, I

593
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,360
think they can attest that it's some of those beautiful environments you can ever picture

594
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:49,360
yourself in.

595
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,000
Some of the coolest job assignments I've ever imagined being able to take part in happened

596
00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:00,600
here and it's just a six month Boy Scouts on steroids experience.

597
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,400
It's very unique and I think there's a place for it with the right context.

598
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:12,240
I think individuals will gravitate and stay longer, but that needs to first start with,

599
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:16,920
I believe, showing them that we care as a country.

600
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,880
So supporting them financially, supporting them with their health, acute and long term,

601
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:29,240
and then building skills that take advantage of the wildland experience like leadership,

602
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:30,800
like grit, like determination.

603
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,000
There's like we talked about with sports.

604
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,240
You can build tremendous qualities through these professions and those are transferable

605
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:40,960
to anything in life.

606
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,240
I just had the opportunity to go to the US Hotshot Association Conference and I heard

607
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:49,960
probably one of the best speeches I've ever heard in my life and it was from an ex hotshot.

608
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,140
His name is Jose Navarro.

609
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:54,600
He won 2009 Teacher of the Year.

610
00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:00,960
He works in East Los Angeles and works with middle schoolers and just hearing his experience

611
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,600
about going into an academic setting where there was no leadership, nobody taking charge.

612
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,300
He acknowledged the socioeconomic issues in that school system, how kids were just getting

613
00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:18,080
left behind and not really being given good mentors, good people to like show them the

614
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:19,840
way and push them.

615
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,600
He took his hotshot experience, the leadership skills he developed and the overall just,

616
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,060
there's an aura about him that makes you want to work hard and I think the kids were very

617
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:31,480
receptive to it and that led to his success.

618
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:37,440
So hearing more stories like that of individuals who didn't find a 20 year career in wild land

619
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:43,460
but credit all of their personal success to those few years of development, more things

620
00:43:43,460 --> 00:43:47,920
that get exposed and illuminated like that creates optimism for this community.

621
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:54,160
It shows that even if you don't find your niche in this, make the most of your experience.

622
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,800
Like there it's a, you're a first responder, you're a servant, you're not going to probably

623
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,720
be able to maintain peak levels of health, peak levels of performance, peak mental health

624
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:09,840
even at times but there's something to be said about pushing past those hurdles with

625
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,440
the best intentions and best approaches and doing what you can with what you have, which

626
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,360
is rhetoric that is spewed on the fire line all the time.

627
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,400
Like just do what you can with what you have, do what you can with the resources you have.

628
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:27,060
Like you need to take that and parallel all of that theme with everything in your life,

629
00:44:27,060 --> 00:44:30,880
your communication with your family, your health in the off season.

630
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,700
It's just let's make the most out of this career for the time while we have it and see

631
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:37,360
what happens from there.

632
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,820
Because I think a lot of the negative internal dialogue that individuals have kind of goes

633
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:47,160
like this job sucks, it's hard, I don't get paid well, I don't get benefits, it's not

634
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,040
setting me up for lifelong success automatically and it's like, okay, yeah, maybe you're not

635
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,760
being treated the best.

636
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,020
Maybe the federal government's not supporting you to the max capability that they could.

637
00:44:59,020 --> 00:45:04,860
Maybe there's like things that constantly deter you from trying to have or have the

638
00:45:04,860 --> 00:45:07,360
energy to make those decisions for yourself.

639
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,400
But it's the hardest working group of people that I've ever met.

640
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,160
You just have to channel that energy into realms that are foreign to you now.

641
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,060
So I think everyone in this field has the potential to succeed in any aspect of life

642
00:45:19,060 --> 00:45:20,320
they want.

643
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,760
I think they just need the tools and guidance to push them in those directions and give

644
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,120
them the opportunity to see it.

645
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,120
There's all this conversation at the moment about, I don't know if it's called DOGE, D-O-G-E,

646
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,840
with the whole analyzing the federal budgets.

647
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:36,840
I think that's great.

648
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,920
Let's look at the fire service.

649
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,960
Because to me, you want to see the biggest false economy and wasted money.

650
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,040
Look at what it takes to break a firefighter.

651
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,440
And I think you're absolutely right.

652
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,640
As a country, we can't just stand up, clap, and say thank you for your service like they

653
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,320
just did with the palisades and then turn around and be like, anyway, moving on.

654
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,120
There's a plane crash over here.

655
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,280
We've got to keep supporting our first responders because otherwise you're not going to have

656
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:03,280
any.

657
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:10,200
And I think if you look at the false economy of, as I said, the holes, so the understaffing

658
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,960
and the overtime, and then that leads to all the workman's comp claims and line of duty

659
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,840
deaths and all these other massive payments that people have got to pay.

660
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:24,440
If you actually want to be a sound business person, you invest in your people and you

661
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:25,440
create that environment.

662
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:32,000
So you attract all these young potential hot spots, hot shots and smoke divers and regular

663
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,720
people on the line who want to be there.

664
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,440
They'll work hard, but then they do get to go home and they do have a paycheck.

665
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,500
They don't have to do a second job.

666
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:44,160
So I think this is a beautiful time for us to really say, all right, well, why are you

667
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,160
looking at all these other budgets?

668
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,020
You want to look at ours?

669
00:46:47,020 --> 00:46:50,240
Because we've been doing more with less for about 20 years now.

670
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:55,140
And I don't know if you've seen the paper, but we're dying all the fucking time.

671
00:46:55,140 --> 00:47:00,040
So maybe just maybe you want to thank us for our service, do a financial analysis of the

672
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,320
fire service nationally.

673
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,520
And you'll realize that if you actually take some of that money from downstream and put

674
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:12,280
it upstream and inspire young people to join wild land, municipal, whatever it is, you

675
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,200
will have a much better delivery of service and you will forge longevity in your first

676
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,520
responders and wildland firefighters.

677
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,640
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

678
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:28,480
And I find it ironic that it really wouldn't take much.

679
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,880
You already have the most loyal population of public servants I've ever come across because

680
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,920
these individuals have families, have wives, have kids.

681
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:45,760
I'm single and have no kids and I can already see like, oh, this would be very like I understand

682
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:46,760
the financial strain.

683
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,940
I'm very I'm liberated by living out of my Prius and not needing to pay rent, not having

684
00:47:51,940 --> 00:47:58,320
to pay for like just excessive costs of food and just like the climate that we're in.

685
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:59,600
Everything's so expensive.

686
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:05,360
I'm just whenever I think of my financial strain, I just it gets so amplified when I

687
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:10,480
look at the context of other individuals in this field who are 30, 40, 50 and trying to

688
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,960
buy houses, buy land, just basic life necessities don't come easy to this population.

689
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:25,120
And then you expand it to like not having year long health care is atrocious to me.

690
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,480
That is absolutely like I do not understand it.

691
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:35,560
I don't I have no ability to conceptualize how we can rationalize that decision of this

692
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,880
population who's being just torn apart physically for six months and giving their bodies and

693
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:46,240
in some cases like suffering chronic injuries that just go unnoticed and lead to like the

694
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:51,400
demise of their quality of life in their 40s, 50s, 60s because it's maybe they didn't go

695
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,840
get the physical therapy they needed or a surgery they needed.

696
00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:00,700
And I found myself in that headspace just because of not having the best financial backing

697
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:01,700
through all this.

698
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:06,240
Like I've torn my PEC, I've torn my MCL and at the times I didn't have basically any money.

699
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:07,240
I was a broke college kid.

700
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,480
I was like, man, it's not a full tear.

701
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,360
I'll just bandage it up and it'll heal.

702
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,440
And now like my tendon sits like two inches lower on my PEC.

703
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,960
My MCL still gives me continued like aches and pains and whatnot.

704
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,100
And I'm like, that shouldn't be how these people are meant to live.

705
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:28,240
If you have an issue and you're in, you have chronic back pain, if you have knee pain when

706
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:32,400
you run, you shouldn't have to feel like, man, it's too much money.

707
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,760
I can't go out to a PT and it's too much money.

708
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,280
I can't seek a strain and conditioning coach.

709
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:38,600
I can't see a dietician.

710
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,580
I can't see a physician.

711
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:46,160
Those individuals should have access to any healthcare professional they want for free,

712
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:51,140
at least in the off season when it's like you have six months to now get your body back

713
00:49:51,140 --> 00:49:55,720
and recuperate and get in a good position to come into the season healthy.

714
00:49:55,720 --> 00:50:02,400
I think like in the case of my season last year, we had maybe three additional days off

715
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,920
other than our mandatory rest and recovery days.

716
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,220
There wasn't really a lot of opportunity to make successful interventions as far as like

717
00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:11,920
injuries go, but you're six months off.

718
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,720
You have the time to now get a dietician to work with you, get your body composition back

719
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:18,540
to within a healthy range.

720
00:50:18,540 --> 00:50:23,760
Get your biomarkers and blood tests back in accordance with good long-term outcomes.

721
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,680
You can go to a physician and get different ideas of how, I don't know, could this be

722
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,400
... Does this need surgery now?

723
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,680
Is this something I could put off?

724
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,120
How urgent is this?

725
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,640
You could have conversations at least and get some guidance.

726
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:42,240
I don't know what percent of people are actually able to do that without really good health

727
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:43,240
insurance.

728
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:47,720
In some cases, I imagine individuals don't even probably have health insurance.

729
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:52,760
They're probably just waiting until the season rolls around and they can take advantage of

730
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:58,840
the healthcare that maybe their agency offers or a workers' comp taking care of their issues.

731
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,960
But that's just, I don't know.

732
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,780
It speaks volumes about what we're willing to do for our first responders when you don't

733
00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:08,920
even offer basic things like healthcare.

734
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:09,920
It wouldn't take much.

735
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:16,320
I don't think this population is the kind of group that needs $150,000, $200,000, $300,000

736
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,160
a year to convince them to stay.

737
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:24,880
You see in structured apartments, as people move up, they can make a very lucrative living.

738
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:29,840
It's a very good, oh, if I stay in this and I work hard and I make my way up, I'm going

739
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,920
to get the return on investment that I'm going for.

740
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,240
In the federal level of things with wild land, that just simply doesn't exist.

741
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:43,020
But you have individuals who just want to be outside, don't want to be in an office.

742
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:44,200
They love the job.

743
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,680
They're the most loyal individuals.

744
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:52,480
It really just would require you giving them their hierarchy of needs to be covered, like

745
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,760
roof over their head, food on the table, happy family values.

746
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,680
Everybody's very simplistic minded in this field.

747
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:04,040
So it's like, you look at the investment it would require to give everybody that baseline

748
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,840
quality of living, the retention would skyrocket.

749
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,520
I cannot even imagine how many people would stay in this field for 10, 20 years if you

750
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:17,280
could just live a decent wage because the lifestyle is epic.

751
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,040
You just get to travel around, fight fires, go on cool assignments.

752
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:27,280
Right when our season ended, I bought a one-way ticket to South America and had the most mind-blowing

753
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,360
experience for three months.

754
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,280
I would do that for 10 years if I could financially support myself, my family, my loved ones as

755
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:35,280
well.

756
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,640
You give me that, I'm not quitting.

757
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:42,960
So I imagine that that probably follows a similar theme for a lot of individuals.

758
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,340
I've made this comment a lot.

759
00:52:44,340 --> 00:52:47,160
We don't have a VA for first responders.

760
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,920
And yeah, arguably most first responders work a lot longer than our average veteran does.

761
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,920
It's not comparative as far as all this, so they shouldn't do it quite the opposite.

762
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,760
There's a lot of people that did four years and we thank them for their service.

763
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,560
And if they had any sort of injury or illness, then now we'd be covered in the VA.

764
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,880
And if they're not, there's the TRICARE.

765
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,920
For us, it's nothing.

766
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,640
The door closes behind you, whether it's six months into a wildland contract or at the

767
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,880
end of a 25-year career in a fire service, it doesn't matter.

768
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:18,880
You're in the same place.

769
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,000
Like, all right, your benefits are done.

770
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,000
Enjoy your pension.

771
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,240
You'll probably be dead in five years.

772
00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:28,680
And so I think whether it's a version of that that we put in for our first responders or

773
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:33,980
if you want to take away the complication, put in a national health service for everyone.

774
00:53:33,980 --> 00:53:38,060
Because in the UK, there is the firefighters charity, which goes above and beyond.

775
00:53:38,060 --> 00:53:39,700
But you have the NHS.

776
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:45,360
The problem is it's devolved now because the UK is starting to mirror the US as far as

777
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,920
obesity and all the illnesses that come with that.

778
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:57,000
So I think there's no better motivator to make a nation healthy than to put in a tax-based

779
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,120
health care system.

780
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,480
Because I mean, we know that the one that we've got doesn't work because 70% of our

781
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,560
population is obese or overweight.

782
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,440
If we had a good health care system, everyone would be looking like athletes.

783
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,140
So we do one of two things.

784
00:54:10,140 --> 00:54:12,080
We just take care of our first responders.

785
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,080
Beautiful.

786
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,080
I'll take that.

787
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:19,320
Or we extend it to the whole nation and use that as a motivator to make everyone healthier.

788
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,440
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

789
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:29,140
And I'm optimistic that that eventually will have to transpire.

790
00:54:29,140 --> 00:54:33,800
There's no way we're going to allow the health epidemic to continue on the trend that it's

791
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,840
occurring at in such a rapid way.

792
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:42,960
And the metabolic crisis that we find ourselves under as nations, it's got to get to a point

793
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:49,920
where the data outweighs the economic advantage of the individuals who are kind of opposing

794
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:50,920
that.

795
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:56,160
Because I don't know, if we don't have a healthy ecosystem, if we don't have healthy bodies,

796
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,880
what does the rest of it matter?

797
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,320
So that's like my overarching view of optimism.

798
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:08,320
But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that I can't wait around for institutional

799
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,940
changes to happen because it takes far too long.

800
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:12,940
It's no guarantees.

801
00:55:12,940 --> 00:55:18,080
And we see that with the changes in administration and the redirecting of values that's already

802
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:19,080
kind of happened.

803
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:27,700
And we've seen it's been kind of just reinforced the volatility of these resources coming from

804
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:28,700
federal levels.

805
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:37,400
So that is really what has transcended my view of the role that private entity support

806
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:42,200
like Hotshot Wellness and these other organizations that we partner with can have for the first

807
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:43,800
responder population.

808
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:49,480
Obviously, our efforts are more towards the wild land resource realm.

809
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:54,480
But it's really cool to see these other movements happening where there's just first responder

810
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,560
support organizations and being like mental health advocacy, individuals who are giving

811
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,040
discounted rates for their services.

812
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:06,400
It's nice to see people acknowledge that a change needs to come.

813
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,000
And there's individuals like myself who aren't willing to wait and just please give us money.

814
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,320
Please change these health care circumstances.

815
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:21,760
We feel that in true Hotshot fashion, we're just going to do what we can with what we

816
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:22,760
have.

817
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:23,760
We're not going to wait for handouts.

818
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,120
We're not going to wait for people to appease our mission.

819
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:28,640
We're just going to get shit done.

820
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:35,140
So that was kind of the route that we've taken with our stance as a private nonprofit entity

821
00:56:35,140 --> 00:56:37,800
of we know there's resources out there.

822
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,120
We know there's research out there.

823
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,240
We know there's individuals trying to help.

824
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:47,480
Let's just go ahead and put everybody in the place to succeed and get this mission going

825
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:48,960
and spearhead this ourselves.

826
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:55,280
So that's kind of like the overarching mission for us as an entity is just kind of to be

827
00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:00,640
more of a sustainable source of information and resources for individuals to go and receive

828
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,840
help the health care they need, the financial support they need, the guidance, the opportunities

829
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,200
for personal development.

830
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:08,640
That's a niche that we hope to fill.

831
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:15,080
And it is being served on a platform that's not subject to the federal government's opinion

832
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,440
of what should be talked about, what should be silenced, what should be funded, what

833
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,200
should not be.

834
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,240
We know what should be funded.

835
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:22,800
We know what needs to be talked about.

836
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,760
And it's kind of fun to be able to do whatever we want and say whatever needs to be said

837
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,480
and do whatever needs to be done.

838
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,840
So that's kind of how I'll introduce the topic of hotshot wellness and kind of our mission.

839
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:36,840
Beautiful.

840
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:37,840
That was a good segue.

841
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,040
So talk to me about the origin then.

842
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,840
Who were the group of people that originally came up with it?

843
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,920
And you know, what is the vision as far as the tools that you're bringing to the table?

844
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,720
Yeah, good.

845
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:50,720
Good question.

846
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:56,200
So one of my partners, Jason Leeper, is the one who founded Hotshot Wellness.

847
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:57,360
It was a couple of years ago.

848
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:02,200
It started as an Instagram page for him and a few other individuals who were kind of just

849
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,880
taking a like, let's just do, let's just see what happens.

850
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:07,480
Let's start posting health content.

851
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:08,920
And it gained a lot of traction.

852
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,080
People were receptive to it.

853
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:16,280
It was really good, solid online content people could look for on this page with respect to

854
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,600
wildland health and wellness.

855
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:23,760
But it would like gain traction and then fall off, gain traction and fall off as any just

856
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,640
volunteer efforts typically do.

857
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,680
These individuals were doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but had to go ahead

858
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:31,220
and make their living.

859
00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:34,680
And that was obviously a priority at different phases of its development.

860
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:41,240
So it hadn't really transcended the way that Jason had depicted and was hoping for.

861
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:46,120
And then right after my season, I took a similar approach of making my personal account where

862
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:51,440
I was just posting reels, posting lectures on YouTube, trying to just put out some resources

863
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,080
for individuals to take advantage of for free.

864
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,640
Like making an off season program for wildland members to partake in.

865
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,480
And yeah, just kind of between my YouTube and Instagram, I was posting a lot of just

866
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,360
like fitness and health related content.

867
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,880
And then Jason and I connected with the Hotshot Wellness account.

868
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,120
And he told me about the Hotshot Wellness initiatives, what it was hope, what his hope

869
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,120
was for it.

870
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,560
And then I told him about my grand vision for what I wanted to be able to contribute

871
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:22,720
to the community.

872
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:27,920
And we just decided that conjoining forces would be better than us going on isolated

873
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:28,920
routes.

874
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:33,720
And we thought we could come together and put Hotshot Wellness on a course of new trajectory

875
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:37,440
with better invigorated spirit, more energy towards it.

876
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,480
Because that's pretty much all I have is just energy and passion and dedication.

877
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:48,440
And I think it just created a really cool opportunity for him to be reinvigorated to

878
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:49,600
do the same project.

879
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,480
So from there, the team has grown.

880
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,600
We now have several partners and board members.

881
00:59:54,600 --> 01:00:01,280
We have Ben Freeman, Nick Merlin, Kareen McNutt, and Bruce Wilson, who's the captain at Alta

882
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:02,660
Hotshots.

883
01:00:02,660 --> 01:00:08,240
So we've grown with individuals who want to help and fuel this mission, but we've grown

884
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:13,640
from more of a social media online platform into an official nonprofit.

885
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:19,760
We're based out of Portland, Oregon, and we're all ex-Hotshots or still currently Hotshots

886
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:24,060
or serve in the wildland community in some way, which is really important to us because

887
01:00:24,060 --> 01:00:29,720
we think we want to be the people who bridge the gap between academia, between practitioners,

888
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:35,240
between the forest service, between government, between the people who need boots on the ground.

889
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:40,880
In order to do that well, we kind of wanted to assemble a team of people who have walked

890
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:46,500
the walk and now talk the talk in the advocacy realm because this field is just a little

891
01:00:46,500 --> 01:00:49,980
bit more receptive to individuals who have seen the circumstances.

892
01:00:49,980 --> 01:00:54,880
So everybody that we bring on and put a part of the mission, it's not like it's exclusive,

893
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:59,880
but it really means a lot to us for individuals to have at least been on fire assignments.

894
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:04,360
Seeing the workloads, I don't care if they've done any specific career, but just understanding

895
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:09,140
the mental and physical tolls that the job, the environment takes on you is important

896
01:01:09,140 --> 01:01:14,060
to us in being able to bridge that gap between institutions.

897
01:01:14,060 --> 01:01:18,080
So that's a little bit about the team, a little bit about the foundation.

898
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:24,840
As far as the niche that we aim to fill, we want to provide preventative support and personal

899
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,040
development for wildland members.

900
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,120
So what does that mean?

901
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:34,240
There's a lot of institutions and organizations that work with wildland members after they've

902
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,520
experienced trauma, after things have already taken shape and unfolded in negative ways

903
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,600
and have had a negative impact on those individuals.

904
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,900
And all those services are amazing and need to happen.

905
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:48,420
They need to be funded for, and that's crucial in the longevity of these individuals.

906
01:01:48,420 --> 01:01:55,320
But we want to be more of a proactive approach with how we serve this population.

907
01:01:55,320 --> 01:02:01,860
So giving them opportunities for professional development aside from just extensive things

908
01:02:01,860 --> 01:02:02,860
on their red card.

909
01:02:02,860 --> 01:02:10,720
Like if they want to go out and explore alternative careers or go out and receive a workshop,

910
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:16,580
yoga seminar, a yoga certification, a gym membership, an adventure-based therapy, like

911
01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:22,440
anything that can aid in their health and wellbeing or a new career avenue or some combination

912
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:23,440
of both.

913
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:29,420
We want them to be able to have the resources and opportunity to, like I've mentioned previously,

914
01:02:29,420 --> 01:02:33,160
utilize the skills they're developing with wildland, but then go ahead and channel it

915
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:38,120
into those other avenues that they're interested in life, be able to explore them and have

916
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,320
the financial backing to do so.

917
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:48,700
We also want to be able to provide things like the Wellness Summit, like a conversation

918
01:02:48,700 --> 01:02:53,600
had amongst the experts in their fields coming together, talking about these issues, giving

919
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:59,760
wildland members tools, knowledge, resources on how to fuel their bodies, to train, to

920
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:05,000
recover, to do acute stress management, like the gauntlet of topics we're covering in

921
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,520
the summit all by leading experts in those fields.

922
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:12,440
It's amazing to see what it's come to, and it's honestly an amazing opportunity for all

923
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,480
first responders to probably come to.

924
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:19,380
There's some really knowledgeable folks giving cool topics, and I think it's going to speak

925
01:03:19,380 --> 01:03:24,120
to a large majority of the first responder realm rather than even just wildland members

926
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:25,720
who it's catered towards.

927
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:31,040
We're talking about those specific issues and things, but people hearing Ben Strand

928
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,980
talk about his story, that's impactful beyond words.

929
01:03:35,980 --> 01:03:43,400
Just hearing people that embody the concept of well-being and advocacy for these individuals,

930
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:48,220
just eliminating the stigma that's plagued these populations for so long.

931
01:03:48,220 --> 01:03:53,160
Hearing people like superintendents, captains, long time hotshots, some of the hardiest people

932
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:58,700
you'll probably ever meet, but being willing to talk about these niche and abstract concepts

933
01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:01,260
like yoga and meditation and mindfulness.

934
01:04:01,260 --> 01:04:04,840
It goes a long way just to show where the field is trending.

935
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:09,360
With individuals like that are also backing it and behind it and have seen the value in

936
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,040
their own lives.

937
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,940
Also just creating just a culture is what I'm getting at.

938
01:04:14,940 --> 01:04:20,500
Just getting a community movement where we have all these individuals at very high levels

939
01:04:20,500 --> 01:04:27,080
of leadership, high levels of academic proficiency, high levels of practitioner experience, all

940
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,560
just creating this nice movement of you can come to our website, you can come to our app,

941
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:34,160
you can come to our feed, you can reach out to these people.

942
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:35,840
There's a community that wants to help.

943
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:37,800
There's a community that knows where you're coming from.

944
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,280
We show support, we want to give back.

945
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,480
That's what we hope we can make a really huge impact on, just providing that sense of camaraderie

946
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:51,880
for folks and showing them that there's people that care about them and understand their

947
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,800
detriments and it's okay to talk about it.

948
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:58,720
It's okay to not be okay and everything that coexists with that.

949
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:00,920
That's one of our other things that we're really spearheading.

950
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:07,120
That gives you an overarching theme of where Hotshot Wellness wants to be of service.

951
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:08,560
Tell me more about the symposium.

952
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:15,000
I saw Amanda Marsh is talking, Megan Louts, I've had them on the show as well.

953
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,480
Some of the other guests and then how can people attend?

954
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,240
Okay, that's perfect.

955
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:25,680
All the resources to attend, I can send to you and you can give it to all of your audience

956
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:30,000
members in whatever way that you see fit.

957
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,040
You just have to register through Eventbrite.

958
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:36,720
It's completely free, which is the amazing thing because we started this and sent those

959
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:43,680
emails out to these huge individuals in their respective fields with I'm imagining monstrous

960
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,640
speaking fees because they're amazing.

961
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:50,320
We were just like, yeah, we're a few people just trying to put on this wicked summit.

962
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:51,680
We would love for you to be a part of it.

963
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:52,760
It's going to be awesome.

964
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:53,760
You should join.

965
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:59,920
Very, I don't know, we're like three people in a garage starting a company essentially.

966
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:05,120
Then now we've been able to land individuals like Megan Louts, like Ben Strand.

967
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,040
Brent Ruby is another one to mention.

968
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,400
He was one of my mentors.

969
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:15,240
Almost every study that I referenced in my master's thesis had Brent Ruby's name on it.

970
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,940
I was fanboying on Brent Ruby throughout my entire graduate studies, had the opportunity

971
01:06:19,940 --> 01:06:24,880
to meet him at a conference, talk shop with him, see his grand vision of where he wants

972
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:31,160
wild land to go and I'm so honored to have him speak at the event.

973
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:37,040
In my perspective, he's kind of like the grandfather of wild land physiology research.

974
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,840
His work at the University of Montana has probably set the stage for most of what we

975
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,280
know about the physiological demands of wild land fire.

976
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,720
Of course, somebody in academia will be like, that's bullshit.

977
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,040
This person's been studying it for X amount of years.

978
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:51,040
There's these people in it.

979
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,680
I get it, but I'm just saying he's a big figure in the wild land research realm for

980
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:56,000
me, especially.

981
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:57,640
Excited to have him.

982
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,840
He's a wealth of knowledge on various topics.

983
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:02,440
That's a huge one.

984
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:03,920
Let's see.

985
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,160
We have a lot of mental health experts.

986
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:12,480
We have individuals that have a unique blend of job experience, of working on hand crews,

987
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:17,440
have seen the mental toll that it takes and they're also coming from a space of, they

988
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:18,880
were females on a crew.

989
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,520
Those demands are even more exaggerated and it takes a lot of resiliency and mindfulness

990
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:29,240
to probably accommodate some of the male figures that I'm imagining they came into contact

991
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:30,240
with.

992
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:36,040
They're a beautiful part of this movement of giving that platform and being a voice

993
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:41,480
for the female demographics in wild land for people who are being, I don't know, part of

994
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:46,000
marginalized groups who maybe don't get the proper resources and backing and things that

995
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,200
they need and just people to reach out to.

996
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,980
That's a huge part of our summit initiative is to make this as well-rounded as possible

997
01:07:53,980 --> 01:07:57,640
and address all of the groups that exist within wild land.

998
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:02,000
Not just catering towards the male demographic that is predominant.

999
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,540
We have one of my friends and colleagues, Lauren Visconti.

1000
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:10,400
She does female specific research with war fighters.

1001
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:14,480
She's a badass herself and she's an amazing role player for the female community.

1002
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:20,880
I think her topic is related to more adaptations and stressors that are specific to the female

1003
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,440
physiology from intensive physical training periods.

1004
01:08:25,440 --> 01:08:33,680
Just another way that we can get a lot of topics covered by broad realms, different

1005
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,620
individuals, different minds, different backgrounds.

1006
01:08:36,620 --> 01:08:42,480
We just want to create a space that the summit has now come to fruition with where every

1007
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:44,040
type of topic can be addressed.

1008
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:45,600
It's an open platform.

1009
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,280
Everybody with various issues is going to be heard and understood.

1010
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:53,960
That's been a beautiful part of constructing this cast of individuals coming from mental

1011
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:59,080
health backgrounds, physical training standpoints, dietitians, people in leadership within wild

1012
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:00,080
land.

1013
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,720
It's a huge gauntlet of individuals with great minds.

1014
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,160
It's an amazing resource to the wild land community.

1015
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:11,940
It's all done out of the goodness of the speaker's hearts and it's free.

1016
01:09:11,940 --> 01:09:17,760
It's the 24th to the 1st of March and we encourage all first responders to come out.

1017
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:18,760
There's unlimited seats.

1018
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:24,160
If we get enough of an audience, we'll just keep upgrading our Zoom feature to allow for

1019
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,680
more audience members.

1020
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:33,280
We've easily surpassed our goal of 400 members per day or 400 links per day.

1021
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:34,760
It's grown in a ton of traction.

1022
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:38,860
We're really excited about all of the eyes that are going to be on these speakers with

1023
01:09:38,860 --> 01:09:39,860
that platform.

1024
01:09:39,860 --> 01:09:40,860
Beautiful.

1025
01:09:40,860 --> 01:09:45,800
When you talk about the female firefighter, I had an interview with Brooke Carrasco years

1026
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:51,400
ago and she was one of the inmate crews that ended up transitioning into full-time wild

1027
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:52,780
land firefighter.

1028
01:09:52,780 --> 01:09:58,160
If you look at Brendan McDonough, his story of addiction and being given a second chance

1029
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:59,320
with his firefighting.

1030
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,960
I think one of the most beautiful stories that's come out, the Palisades fires, is they've

1031
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:08,640
been actually highlighting a lot of these incarcerated men and women who are going to

1032
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,320
ultimately transition into full-time wild land firefighting.

1033
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:18,320
I think your community is such a beautiful blueprint of what I think we need all over

1034
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,240
the country.

1035
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:25,400
Creating these resources, especially a lot of these people, their early life did create

1036
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:26,400
challenges.

1037
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:27,880
Some of them found themselves on the wrong side of the law.

1038
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:33,080
Some of them found themselves luckily going into the fire service first.

1039
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,800
Understanding the healing that can happen there, not only your regular firefighter,

1040
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:42,000
but someone who transitioned from a pretty challenging upbringing.

1041
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,840
The wild land fire service really could be a model for a lot of other organizations and

1042
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:52,620
professions to start enveloping some of their community that maybe had found themselves

1043
01:10:52,620 --> 01:10:59,000
a victim of their circumstances and environment and bring them a mentor and back into a healthy

1044
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,080
profession or calling.

1045
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:02,920
Absolutely.

1046
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:08,560
I think it's a great blueprint for individuals who, like you said, maybe haven't had the

1047
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:16,300
best upbringing, the best resources, the best immediate track to a way of life that is typical

1048
01:11:16,300 --> 01:11:17,300
of most people.

1049
01:11:17,300 --> 01:11:20,920
Maybe they've had certain things on their record that inhibit them from getting the

1050
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,960
jobs they want or the opportunities, the doors open.

1051
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:29,120
Wild land presents that equal playing field where individuals, whether you have a DUI

1052
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:36,240
on your record, whether you have a green card and you're not a full citizen, it just seems

1053
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:45,240
like it's a field that holds no limits as long as you're willing to work.

1054
01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:46,240
That's the beauty of it.

1055
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:52,240
I think if any individual wants to get a fresh start, to provide themselves with an opportunity

1056
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:57,520
for success, to develop good qualities, to be amongst a profession of colleagues where

1057
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:03,320
there's no judgment, everybody's weird, everybody has their own things, everybody had an unstructured

1058
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:05,760
route of getting here, has their own trauma.

1059
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,640
It could be such a beautiful community for individuals who have had a rough patch of

1060
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:17,080
time and need an opportunity to get back on their feet and move forward.

1061
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,960
The sky's the limit with the amount of individuals that could take advantage of the career in

1062
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:22,400
this field.

1063
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:26,960
Just with the right things in play and right funding, I think those are very feasible measures.

1064
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:31,720
It wouldn't take a lot and you'd be able to develop more retention, more people gaining

1065
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:32,720
interest.

1066
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,100
I didn't even know this profession existed when I was in high school.

1067
01:12:35,100 --> 01:12:39,780
If I did, I would have done it right after because as an 18-year-old, this is a monstrous

1068
01:12:39,780 --> 01:12:45,800
amount of money as an 18-year-old in comparison to any and you get to work outside, be with

1069
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:52,320
a bunch of friends and there's so many cool parts of it that need to be exposed, but at

1070
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:57,520
the same time, handling what we need to do with the detriments, the mental health struggles,

1071
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:03,680
the physical ailments, those are also just as much on the forefront of our initiative.

1072
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:08,760
Illustrating the good and the bad, a part of our mission because both are necessary.

1073
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:09,760
I agree.

1074
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:13,600
I think the sky's the limit for getting individuals involved from any type of background.

1075
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,000
Will Barron You hit on a point that I'd never really thought

1076
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,000
about.

1077
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:22,280
I have been talking more and more about mirroring law enforcement when it comes to the age of

1078
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:27,240
the firefighter recruit because we're learning now about the fact that the brain is still

1079
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:32,480
developing, that we're not really ready for all that kind of trauma at 18 years old.

1080
01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:36,320
For example, my local department here, they're literally snatching kids out of high school

1081
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,720
now out of desperation.

1082
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:45,080
What a great way to get some experience while you wait to age out at 21 would be to spend

1083
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:49,600
a few years in the wildland side because you're being exposed to firefighting, but you're

1084
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:55,480
not having that unending trauma that usually the EMS side of our profession bombards us

1085
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:56,480
with.

1086
01:13:56,480 --> 01:14:02,960
You get to actually fight fire, you get that teamwork, you get to really forge resilience

1087
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,240
and that physicality.

1088
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,520
Then this is what happened when I worked for Anaheim in California.

1089
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,440
A lot of my friends that I got hired with had gone through CDF.

1090
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:15,720
They ended up being fantastic firefighters and obviously they were the ones usually deploying

1091
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:21,320
on the strike teams back out to their old stomping grounds, but that is a great way to

1092
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:25,280
transition a high school kid into the municipal fire service.

1093
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,640
I'm not saying that they should all leave at 21 and come to other agencies, but if that's

1094
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:31,120
kind of your plan, well, beautiful.

1095
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:37,120
You get three years of these young fit people before they then transition into a municipality.

1096
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,480
Yeah, 100%.

1097
01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:45,840
I've worked through my time at Santa Ana College with a variety of municipal departments.

1098
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:51,280
We would go out and have eight hour days where I'm administering physical assessments for

1099
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:55,960
the most part, but a lot of the times I just get in conversation with folks about what

1100
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,920
their lives are like, what are the demands like, what do you like to see in individuals,

1101
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:06,040
what's a good person that you look for to hire, just things like that.

1102
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:11,040
It seemed like those conversations were kind of being redirected where they don't want

1103
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:14,680
individuals coming in with this cookie cutter approach.

1104
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:20,200
Right after high school, they got their EMT, they did their structural academy and then

1105
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:25,000
now they're 20 and then they come in with no life experience and they try to be a public

1106
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,720
servant at that high of a level.

1107
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:33,640
I think that's one thing that I don't like the dialogue for with some people who are

1108
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:34,800
in structural departments.

1109
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:41,080
It almost seems like certain individuals lose the public service side of it.

1110
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:48,060
They don't have the altruism that it requires to be a good firefighter, to be a good paramedic,

1111
01:15:48,060 --> 01:15:54,400
to see these traumas, these tragedies, the work that it entails and the amount of benevolence

1112
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:58,400
and good you have to have in your heart to be a good fireman.

1113
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:02,120
I don't know how the hell you could be that at 20 years old if you've just done what I

1114
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:07,560
did to get up to 18, played sports and now you've done a couple semesters of classes

1115
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:13,620
and now you have to go see constant mortality and terrible outcomes and tragedies and maintain

1116
01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:17,400
positive head spaces and leadership qualities.

1117
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:19,840
It just doesn't make sense.

1118
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:25,680
This is one of the hardest jobs to do on a daily basis, especially in high volume call

1119
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,240
regions like Los Angeles.

1120
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:32,520
I just feel for the individuals who are put in those roles and don't know how to accommodate

1121
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,760
it but in those conversations I had with people high up, it seemed like they were looking

1122
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:44,480
for individuals with life experience, with those ethics, having lived and learned things

1123
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:45,840
outside of fire.

1124
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:51,120
A lot of these things that don't directly manifest in a successful fire route become

1125
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:55,080
very valuable to those individuals it seemed like and they were having better retention,

1126
01:16:55,080 --> 01:17:00,520
better success, better leadership from those individuals who took rather diverse avenues

1127
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:05,980
and ended up in fire versus those 18 year olds who were just stoked on the schedule

1128
01:17:05,980 --> 01:17:10,640
and loved the idea of being a fireman for X, Y, Z reasons.

1129
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:15,960
I am 100% an advocate for the idea of individuals exploring other avenues.

1130
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:20,980
It doesn't need to be wild land but I think the wild land is a great realm for people

1131
01:17:20,980 --> 01:17:25,560
to tap into at such a young age where you're free, you're single, you can go off for six

1132
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,600
months and nobody's going to … People will miss you but nobody's going to give a shit

1133
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:30,600
if you're gone.

1134
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,960
You can go mess around for six months in the forest.

1135
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:33,960
That's cool.

1136
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:34,960
You're 18, go do it.

1137
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:40,120
It's a massive opportunity to be pushed to your limits mentally and physically and grow

1138
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:43,840
that resilience but also just give you empathy.

1139
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:47,000
You're working with the most diverse individuals you're ever going to meet.

1140
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:52,600
You're going to be exposed to different minds and ideas and backgrounds and ideologies and

1141
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:57,720
it really just tests your own thought process as well having these conversations.

1142
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:03,400
I think getting away from my perspective, if you're on a coastal city in California,

1143
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:08,640
there's diversity but a lot of the conversations seem like a lot of people are on the same

1144
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:09,640
page.

1145
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:10,640
Maybe you don't get pushed.

1146
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,740
Maybe you find a department where the ideologies are very similar.

1147
01:18:13,740 --> 01:18:18,200
Maybe everybody has the same political stance, the same background, the same socioeconomic

1148
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:19,200
status.

1149
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,080
There's none of that in wild land.

1150
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:26,560
I think it's a beautiful opportunity to show people that there's diversity in the world

1151
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:27,880
and it's awesome.

1152
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:29,580
It's great to have confrontation.

1153
01:18:29,580 --> 01:18:31,960
It's great to have these oppositional views.

1154
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,380
It's great to acknowledge that other people might not have had the circumstances that

1155
01:18:35,380 --> 01:18:41,820
you've had and just humble yourself a bit and look big picture and be able to have the

1156
01:18:41,820 --> 01:18:46,160
perspective to show compassion and empathy for individuals.

1157
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:50,500
There's a ton of opportunity for great personal development with wild land that I think would

1158
01:18:50,500 --> 01:18:56,080
translate into any other tactical realm if you don't choose to have a 20-year wild land

1159
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:58,040
career out of it even.

1160
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:02,480
I had Sebastian Junger on a few times and one of the things the first conversation he

1161
01:19:02,480 --> 01:19:08,040
talked about bringing back national service and immediately he was like, oh God, you mean

1162
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:09,040
conscription?

1163
01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:10,520
It's like, no, it's a difference.

1164
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:15,200
Yes, some people can choose to go to the military and that will be their national service.

1165
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:19,520
It's interesting because another one of my guests is asking how do we prevent sending

1166
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:24,920
more of our children to wars that aren't absolutely necessary and he said bring back national

1167
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:26,080
service.

1168
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:31,280
If all the kids have to go, including the rich ones, you watch how quickly we'll temper

1169
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:33,480
some of these wars.

1170
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:38,100
National service can also be, we think about the first responders, but obviously that wouldn't

1171
01:19:38,100 --> 01:19:42,720
work on municipal fire and police, but wild land, all right, you don't want to go join

1172
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:47,400
the military unit, well then go join a hand crew and you'll learn, like you said, the

1173
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:53,800
importance of community, the diversity of the men and women that surround us, service,

1174
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:58,600
what hard work is, time in nature, even see parts of the country you didn't even realize.

1175
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:03,300
You were born in Crenshaw, LA and now you're out in the mountains of Montana.

1176
01:20:03,300 --> 01:20:08,760
So I think that is another interesting concept, like if we had a form of national service,

1177
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:14,680
that would benefit the wild land community and subsidize the career and seasonal men

1178
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:21,660
and women, not take their jobs, but add manpower and woman power to an underserved crew so

1179
01:20:21,660 --> 01:20:26,280
when you have these crazy fire seasons, now you have people that have signed up to do

1180
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:30,840
this, they're not going to do it forever, but they, like you said, are forging into

1181
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:35,000
adulthood through this shared suffering in this community.

1182
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:42,120
Yeah, I hadn't fully invested into that thought, but I think there's, I know the National Guard

1183
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,720
comes into play with certain fires and those individuals get exposure, but having a dedicated

1184
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:51,360
group of individuals who want to serve in some way, but don't find the mold in military

1185
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:57,680
or police directly, having some sort of program that gets them involved in these assignments

1186
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,600
with the right training and resources would be, it'd be a monumental shift.

1187
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:08,040
And to be honest, I consider, like when you talk about the service side of things, my

1188
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:12,720
life can kind of be broken up so far into like pre-service and post-service.

1189
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:19,100
Like there was just a shift in mindset that took me away from the one that had naturally

1190
01:21:19,100 --> 01:21:23,680
transpired growing up, where you're looking for personal gain, for like success for yourself,

1191
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:28,960
your family, your loved ones, and those aren't bad things to aspire for, but they don't lead

1192
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:32,420
anybody towards long-term happiness in my view.

1193
01:21:32,420 --> 01:21:33,880
You could be the most successful person.

1194
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:34,880
You could have the most accolades.

1195
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:40,080
You could have every certification, license, degree, cars, houses.

1196
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:41,640
You could still be unhappy.

1197
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:47,960
And when I made that realization and shift towards volunteering, philanthropy, just putting

1198
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:53,320
my efforts towards the goodness and wellbeing of others, it's really opened up my view just

1199
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:54,520
how impactful it can be.

1200
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:59,280
And you talk about kids, adolescents into early adulthood.

1201
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:03,840
These are all opportunities that I want to expose them to in one way or another, because

1202
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:13,080
I had that shift at 23 and I had 18 year, like at 18, that would have just been so monumental

1203
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:17,600
in my grand scheme and scope of what I wanted life to be in the avenues that I took.

1204
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:19,400
And I'm thankful I had it at 23.

1205
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:24,460
But if we could expose that idea to 10 year olds, to 12 year olds, to kids going into

1206
01:22:24,460 --> 01:22:30,240
high school, I can't imagine the positive shifts in mental health outcomes, the positive

1207
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:37,400
shift in better choices of careers or just more sustainable career routes, better usage

1208
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:39,360
of their education.

1209
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:42,600
Maybe in some cases they don't go to college because they found a calling in a different

1210
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:48,120
avenue they never would have thought of, because now they're not just thinking money, like

1211
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:53,000
clout, fame, acknowledgement, all these things that are extrinsically motivating them to

1212
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:54,000
make their moves.

1213
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:58,560
It's now you have this shift of mindset towards how can I be of service to the rest of the

1214
01:22:58,560 --> 01:22:59,560
world around me?

1215
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:05,600
How can I capitalize on my personal success while also that success being translated to

1216
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,820
everyone else around me or a specific population that's underserved?

1217
01:23:09,820 --> 01:23:15,080
So I'm a huge fan of trying to get kids involved with these types of conversations and movements

1218
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:18,400
and give them the opportunity that I've had in the recent years.

1219
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:19,400
Absolutely.

1220
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:23,520
Well, I want to hit one more area and then we'll close out with some closing questions.

1221
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:26,200
You touched on off season conditioning.

1222
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,700
So you enter from the sporting world.

1223
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:35,360
What was your impression of the baseline fitness and strength of the populations that you were

1224
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:36,600
working with?

1225
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:41,120
And then let's talk about training that population off season to be ready for the next one.

1226
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:45,840
And of course, obviously to be resilient as far as the injury and longevity side.

1227
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:49,400
Yeah, that's a great question.

1228
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,360
I would categorize my crew in particular.

1229
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:56,040
And from what I've seen in the brief history, I've been involved.

1230
01:23:56,040 --> 01:24:03,280
There's individuals who are insanely dedicated to fitness and take it very seriously.

1231
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:06,440
We have a ton of competitive runners in the wildland community.

1232
01:24:06,440 --> 01:24:12,560
So it's cool to see that movement transcending and people in their off season diet like doing

1233
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:19,240
crazy sport science performance type of measures to get good in their respective like passions.

1234
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:23,680
So there's individuals who have an intrinsic relationship with training, with adaptation,

1235
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:25,560
with optimizing performance.

1236
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:29,720
And that translates obviously into their into their well-being during the season, because

1237
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:35,640
now they've built in habits of how to hydrate, how to fuel, how to manage their recovery.

1238
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:38,960
They've built a relationship with their body and stress.

1239
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:44,400
So that's one overarching theme that individuals who train regularly have an upper hand in

1240
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:49,760
of just understanding how their body adapts and how they can get themselves to positively

1241
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:54,600
induced changes and reduce the amount of negative impacts from things like over training, knowing

1242
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,460
when they need to rest, knowing when they need to taper off.

1243
01:24:57,460 --> 01:25:02,520
So there's individuals like that who train all year round and love it.

1244
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:08,200
There's individuals who show up in May, June, April, whatever, whatever your season starts.

1245
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:11,280
And they're just like blue collar, just want to work.

1246
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:15,200
They know that they'll get in shape as the season goes on.

1247
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:19,960
But at the same time, that over years and years and years of like you going in with

1248
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:25,360
no training, you've only been sitting and eating and just festering all off season.

1249
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:30,560
And now you're going into these huge scale demands and stressors on your cardiovascular

1250
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:33,040
system, your pulmonary system, your skeletal system.

1251
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:39,520
Like those systems would do much better over time if you gave them some sort of a systematic

1252
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:45,020
buildup to the point where now you're on a fire assignment within three weeks of you

1253
01:25:45,020 --> 01:25:46,020
coming on.

1254
01:25:46,020 --> 01:25:48,500
That's not enough time to train to adapt.

1255
01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:53,280
Like you can get some small scale changes, but the real training needs to come in in

1256
01:25:53,280 --> 01:26:00,400
the off season so that over time you don't have a population that's going in and suffering

1257
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:06,960
for months on end to get back to where their current systems need to be fully functioning.

1258
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:13,480
And that goes into the same token of the first responder population, the fire population.

1259
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:21,920
We all, it can acknowledge the detriments that cardiovascular disease and on duty cardiac

1260
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:25,080
arrest play in the demise of this population.

1261
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:29,720
And that's a multifactorial type of phenomenon.

1262
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:34,760
I'm not going to say it's fitness based entirely, but you look at just the six months of an

1263
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,240
off season, that could be a health detriment.

1264
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:42,640
And now you're getting put in a scenario where you're hiking in heat, large amounts of psychological,

1265
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:44,680
physiological stress imposed.

1266
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:47,280
That overall as a theme is not healthy.

1267
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:52,000
Like you need to treat your off season as a time to build stress resilience so that

1268
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:57,640
when you're put in those fight or flight scenarios, so that when you're like hiking at peak heat,

1269
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:04,000
peak elevation gain, heavy pack, like obviously individuals are doing different things as

1270
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:08,560
they work their way up the food chain in a way as they go through their careers.

1271
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:13,920
But I want to shift the mindset towards this population to treating your body like an athlete

1272
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:18,280
where you're getting the resources to strength train, to cross train, to build up cardiovascular

1273
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:23,880
endurance, to have a better relationship with your musculoskeletal system where you're not

1274
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:28,640
fighting against movement patterns that you feel like are hurting you, your knees hurt,

1275
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:33,000
your back hurts, like getting you the resources for things like yoga and mobility training.

1276
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:39,360
So overall, I want to be an advocate for individuals to treat their body holistically like an athlete

1277
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:44,400
through the off season so that there's less of a steep strain curve when you start that

1278
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:48,400
in season training, get on your first fire assignment.

1279
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:53,240
So that as a broad aspect is my goal with fitness and how important of a role it should

1280
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:54,840
play in their off season.

1281
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:59,200
What advice would you give to a municipal firefighter that doesn't have an off season

1282
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:01,800
but it's 365?

1283
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:10,920
Yeah, I would say my best like optimistic view for them is there's a dose response relationship

1284
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,400
with training that should not go unnoticed.

1285
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:18,600
You don't need to be training two, three, four hours a day to get the max results you

1286
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:19,600
need.

1287
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:23,600
There's like minimalist ways to get really good returns on your investment, whether it's

1288
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:28,820
a 10 minute hit, whether it's a 15 minute metabolic resistance training circuit, whether

1289
01:28:28,820 --> 01:28:35,200
it's doing a 10 minute yoga in between calls or like just take advantage of the time that

1290
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:40,780
you do have because I know that like unless you're on a huge call volume type of station,

1291
01:28:40,780 --> 01:28:47,120
there's usually opportunities to fit in these tiny micro adjustment in like just overall

1292
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:50,400
periods where you can dedicate time to your health and well-being.

1293
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:56,200
So just finding something that fits for you and your mold and allows you to be successful,

1294
01:28:56,200 --> 01:29:01,440
not put yourself at a detriment during your job, not exhausting yourself, but just acknowledging

1295
01:29:01,440 --> 01:29:05,720
that those are beautiful tools that are very actionable.

1296
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:11,480
Don't take a lot of time and effort and resources and could prove vital in your mental health

1297
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:12,480
for the day.

1298
01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:16,320
It'd be amazing to hear people's experiences when they start implementing things like a

1299
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:22,940
simple breath work protocol or an NSDR protocol, just like your effectiveness as a servant

1300
01:29:22,940 --> 01:29:27,560
on the job when you're working and doing patient care all the way to when you come home at

1301
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:32,080
the end of the day and need to be the father, the husband, the wife, the spouse, whatever

1302
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:35,360
role you play at home, you're just going to come home in a better spot.

1303
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:39,880
You're going to be elevated in your mood, better cognitive performance on the job, better

1304
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:41,640
health and long-term outcomes.

1305
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:45,960
It's just move more, do it frequently, do something you love, do something that fits

1306
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:46,960
you.

1307
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:51,600
It could be a mindfulness practice, it could be journaling, it could be a visualization.

1308
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:56,760
There's a million ways to get involved in practices that all get at the same root of

1309
01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:59,880
these themes.

1310
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:02,340
I would advise them just to explore.

1311
01:30:02,340 --> 01:30:04,400
Find a relationship that works with you.

1312
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,960
I don't know where you're coming from.

1313
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:11,680
Every excuse in the book not to, let's find a way to accommodate those excuses and put

1314
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,800
it into action and work around them.

1315
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:21,000
Going to empower individuals to make that decision for themselves and explore how effective

1316
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:24,680
they can be in improving their wellbeing on the job and off.

1317
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:29,720
One more thing I'm going to squeeze in because you come from the high-performance world.

1318
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:35,520
I realized that when we're talking about sports, when I talk to a lot of people when they're

1319
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:42,000
in the special forces, special operations world, especially the tier one, they're squeezing

1320
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:47,800
out performance from these war fighters or whoever it is.

1321
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:50,400
They have nutritionists, they have strength and conditioning coaches, they have sports

1322
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:52,600
psychologists, they have all these things.

1323
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:57,720
When you look at the same conversation in our populations, more often than not, it's

1324
01:30:57,720 --> 01:31:00,800
really, well, let's try and get them to die less.

1325
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:02,880
Not human performance at all.

1326
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:08,840
We're talking about keeping them moving, getting their body weight down, that kind of thing.

1327
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:16,600
Can you contrast the sporting athletes that you coach versus the tactical athletes?

1328
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:23,040
Talk to me about, for performance, the importance of sleep because I think this is another underdiscussed

1329
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:24,040
thing.

1330
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:28,760
We're asking a lot of our responders to operate at a submaximal level because of this, especially

1331
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:30,720
this recruitment crisis.

1332
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:38,160
How important was it on the sporting side as far as sleep on the rest and recovery conversation?

1333
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:43,800
That's a fantastic topic and one that could probably involve an hour-long lecture of the

1334
01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:47,520
multifaceted benefits of high-quality sleep.

1335
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:49,480
We'll keep it simple.

1336
01:31:49,480 --> 01:31:52,400
Sleep is your main mode for recovery overall.

1337
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:58,160
When you talk about supplements that can induce better recovery or whether you should roll

1338
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:03,280
after or before, people get fixated on a lot of these mechanisms of, should I static stretch?

1339
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,000
Should I do myofascial release techniques?

1340
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:08,000
Should I do this before or after working out?

1341
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:12,880
Should I make sure that I'm not training a certain way or should I not do it at a certain

1342
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:16,520
time of the year or after calls?

1343
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:22,000
For shift workers overall, we have a detriment on the level of consistent sleep that you

1344
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:27,240
can get, but there's tools and interventions you can take to probably try to maximize the

1345
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:30,360
brief bouts of sleep you can get on shift.

1346
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:35,800
Just talking about the role of sleep in recovery for athletic performance, it's a non-negotiable.

1347
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:40,640
It's probably the best tool you can utilize to enhance the proper restoration of tendons,

1348
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:46,200
ligaments, bones, muscle, anything musculoskeletal that happens during sleep.

1349
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:53,440
Those pivotal stages of deep sleep are so heavily implicated on our tissues' ability

1350
01:32:53,440 --> 01:32:55,700
to restore and rejuvenate.

1351
01:32:55,700 --> 01:33:01,280
It's probably the most magical pill I could ever sell you in terms of recovery because

1352
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:08,080
if I marketed it that way, like a $100 supplement that you can take and it would boost growth

1353
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:13,080
hormone, it would do all these amazing things that sleep does and people would buy it instead

1354
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:18,800
of taking the time to get off your phone two hours before bed, to reduce blue light, to

1355
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:23,640
get up in the morning and get bright sunlight in your eyes, to just do things to explore

1356
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:27,980
what gives you the right context to fall asleep when you have control over it, is your best

1357
01:33:27,980 --> 01:33:33,480
return on investment to allow you to train harder, to get better adaptations, to continue

1358
01:33:33,480 --> 01:33:35,480
to push yourself every day.

1359
01:33:35,480 --> 01:33:40,620
If you don't sleep well and you're not getting enough deep sleep, another side of the equation

1360
01:33:40,620 --> 01:33:42,320
is learning.

1361
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:47,920
You process things and it goes from short to long term during REM sleep.

1362
01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:52,020
It's just this amazing multifaceted usage of your time.

1363
01:33:52,020 --> 01:33:55,540
It's the best performance enhancing drug you could ever talk to and it's free.

1364
01:33:55,540 --> 01:33:59,400
You just have to do the right things to set yourself up with the right environment, the

1365
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:02,440
right context to fall asleep and then take advantage.

1366
01:34:02,440 --> 01:34:03,440
I'm not a sleep expert.

1367
01:34:03,440 --> 01:34:07,320
I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know how to give people the perfect recipe for

1368
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:10,160
success but there's resources out there.

1369
01:34:10,160 --> 01:34:14,620
There's podcasts, there's Ted Talks, there's all these practitioners that with endless

1370
01:34:14,620 --> 01:34:19,200
resources online of routes you can take to try.

1371
01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:24,840
But if you're a first responder and you have the mindset of, I'm a shift worker, my sleep's

1372
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:28,920
going to suck, I have kids at home, my sleep's going to suck, it just falls into this negative

1373
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,580
dialogue of throw your hands up and not try to do anything, which is where I'm trying

1374
01:34:33,580 --> 01:34:35,600
to be an advocate for.

1375
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:41,040
Even the smallest dose dependent increase in these things leads to monumental positive

1376
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:43,020
shifts in outcomes.

1377
01:34:43,020 --> 01:34:48,180
Whether you can't train like your buddy who does CrossFit and can train for three hours

1378
01:34:48,180 --> 01:34:53,880
a day and gets massive numbers, that's not the tree I'm barking up.

1379
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:58,760
You kind of have to look at your profession as you're a servant first but there's things

1380
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:02,680
we can do to make your time as a servant as positive as possible.

1381
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:05,120
Make your acute health as best as we can.

1382
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:09,640
So just having a shift in mindset of, man, my sleep might not be the best as this athlete

1383
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:15,680
who gets to go to sleep for 10 hours and wake up and train twice and go to sleep again.

1384
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:21,440
But if you can get an extra 40 minutes of deep sleep that night or you can fit in a

1385
01:35:21,440 --> 01:35:25,920
nap and improve your cognitive performance on the acute level where you're doing patient

1386
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:31,880
care and all these other things that require high levels of cognitive abilities, just maximizing

1387
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:37,800
the amount of sleep you're getting for cognitive and physical performance, the little changes

1388
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:39,720
and little shifts really go a long way.

1389
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:45,560
So yeah, I'm a huge advocate for people shifting that mindset from this sucks so we might as

1390
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:49,680
well just accept that to this sucks, let's try and work around it.

1391
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:51,440
Well, I think there's another layer to it.

1392
01:35:51,440 --> 01:35:55,080
This sucks, let's fight for a better work week that gives us more rest and recovery.

1393
01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:59,960
And I think that's the mission that is starting to find legs now when you speak to all the

1394
01:35:59,960 --> 01:36:03,400
people, whether it's strength and conditioning, whether it's Stuart McGill, we're talking

1395
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:07,280
about back injuries, whether it's the mental health practitioners, whether it's the cancer

1396
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:13,400
experts, whether it's performance or longevity, sleep is an absolute essential part of this

1397
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:14,400
conversation.

1398
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:17,600
We talk about cancer and what's in our gear and the carcinogens.

1399
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:20,640
No one talks about sleep being a massive carcinogen.

1400
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:22,640
We talk about mental health, that's what you saw.

1401
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:26,920
No one talks about sleep deprivation being completely detrimental to the mind.

1402
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:30,320
And as you said, learning, you process learning in a positive way.

1403
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:33,160
You also process trauma when you sleep properly.

1404
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:38,040
So everything that you see we struggle with has a direct correlation to sleep deprivation

1405
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:39,040
as well.

1406
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:42,340
So as you said, it's a free solution.

1407
01:36:42,340 --> 01:36:45,920
And if you proactively invest in your people, like we talked about earlier, whether it's

1408
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:51,360
wildland, whether it's municipal, you have just hit a massive force multiplier in both

1409
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:53,580
health, longevity and performance.

1410
01:36:53,580 --> 01:36:55,800
So it's an absolute win-win.

1411
01:36:55,800 --> 01:37:00,100
It's just people having the courage to stand up and say, my sleep is important.

1412
01:37:00,100 --> 01:37:02,960
My time in my own bed next to my spouse is important.

1413
01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:07,640
Waking up with my kids an extra day between shifts is super important.

1414
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:13,120
And being fully staffed so I'm not told I can't go home the next day is insanely important.

1415
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:15,760
So that's just the, you know, the basal thing.

1416
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:20,400
Now you add in longevity and you get these guys that are fired up about forcible entry

1417
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:23,440
and cutting lines and hell attack and all these things.

1418
01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:27,120
And you say, well, you're going to be a much better firefighter when you're well slept.

1419
01:37:27,120 --> 01:37:31,360
The same way as your favorite basketball player is much better when he's well slept.

1420
01:37:31,360 --> 01:37:36,400
So this is what's exciting is that as these layers add up, it's irrefutable.

1421
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:40,960
Like we have to give our first responders, you know, ER doctors and nurses and all these

1422
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:46,160
other high performers whose lives are in their hands, the rest and recovery they deserve.

1423
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:51,200
So they're not chronically broken like we see in so many of these professions.

1424
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:54,200
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1425
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:55,960
And the data doesn't lie.

1426
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:59,680
That's kind of the nice thing with in terms of like looking longterm at policy, the more

1427
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:04,960
that we can get involved with academic institutions looking to put data to these practices and

1428
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:10,680
provide evidence for improved retention, better quality of care, better line construction,

1429
01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:13,560
better crew outcomes on their on their tests and things like that.

1430
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:14,560
I don't know.

1431
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:16,120
Like the list goes on.

1432
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:20,520
You just if you start to paint a picture of improved performance, improved health, you

1433
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:25,360
can convince these institutions to make those changes like workweek shifts, like mandatory

1434
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:30,200
naps, things that when it's applicable should be implemented.

1435
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:33,000
I understand that sometimes shit needs to get done.

1436
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:34,800
You can't change the circumstances.

1437
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:36,800
The fire is not going to wait for you to take a nap.

1438
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:38,160
So I get it.

1439
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:43,800
But there's a lot of situations where if the policy advocates for or allows for individuals

1440
01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:50,800
to take advantage of this super food to the max type of supplement that sleep is like

1441
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:55,900
the the cascade of benefits that are systemic among the body for it.

1442
01:38:55,900 --> 01:39:00,180
So it's it just paints a picture of why they should invest in these in these individuals,

1443
01:39:00,180 --> 01:39:05,800
the return on investment they'll get with better workers, better outcomes, better productivity.

1444
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:11,880
I am hopeful that we can paint that picture and build a better environment for these first

1445
01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:16,360
responder populations as a whole to get the advocacy they need for it.

1446
01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:17,360
Absolutely.

1447
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:18,360
All right.

1448
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:21,940
Well, the first of the closing questions, is there a book or other books that you love

1449
01:39:21,940 --> 01:39:22,940
to recommend?

1450
01:39:22,940 --> 01:39:26,760
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1451
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:29,920
Yeah, that's a that's a good one.

1452
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:33,680
I'm currently reading a very cool one from Ethan Cross.

1453
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:35,680
It's called Chatter.

1454
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:40,240
So that one I watched a Huberman podcast, and Ethan Cross was on it.

1455
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:44,980
He essentially is talking about the inner voice, the science and the neuroscience behind

1456
01:39:44,980 --> 01:39:51,160
the inner voice, our cognition, what what self dialogue and self talk can do in terms

1457
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:56,840
of positive states and degradatory states, their context of mental illness and disease

1458
01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:01,800
and deconstructive rabbit holes you can drive yourself down.

1459
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,160
Also with very actionable tools of how to distance yourself.

1460
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:09,880
That would be a kind of a common psychological term of just positive distancing techniques

1461
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:15,280
to utilize that inner voice to your advantage, but also turn it off when it's not necessary.

1462
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:20,680
So for individuals who find themselves in situations where if you're in stillness, if

1463
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:27,040
you're in your off season, your relationship with yourself consists of you like not being

1464
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:28,260
comfortable with boredom.

1465
01:40:28,260 --> 01:40:33,180
You go your phone immediately or like you get awkward and don't know what to do when

1466
01:40:33,180 --> 01:40:37,720
you're just like there with your thoughts or maybe those moments lead you down negative

1467
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:44,600
rabbit holes of I don't know, just negative states where your anxiety ridden, maybe you

1468
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:50,040
get too fixated on certain things and it's just a constant tearing down inside your head.

1469
01:40:50,040 --> 01:40:54,600
This is a great book with actionable tools to provide you with some strategies to overcome

1470
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:59,400
that inner voice and shift it to more of a positively adapted one.

1471
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:00,400
Brilliant.

1472
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:01,400
I can totally relate to that.

1473
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:04,200
It's funny, I just started day one of Headspace again.

1474
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:09,840
I'm going to do like a 20 day meditation run because I finished my book last year and that

1475
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:11,520
consumes you.

1476
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:12,520
It's in a good way.

1477
01:41:12,520 --> 01:41:18,200
Like you're focused on this thing that you're creating, but then you're done and it's released

1478
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:21,980
and now you're left with this void again and then you start hearing that how loud that

1479
01:41:21,980 --> 01:41:23,520
voice has become the whole time.

1480
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:28,160
So I'm literally combating that very thing that you're talking about.

1481
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:34,400
Yep, and it's cool because even in that book, he acknowledges that he's a lead researcher

1482
01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:39,760
at this laboratory that studies the inner voice and he references examples of time periods

1483
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:43,760
where the inner voice has been highly destructive to him.

1484
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:48,480
It's been like he knows all the tools, all the strategies, all the things of how to counter

1485
01:41:48,480 --> 01:41:50,640
this and it still overtakes him sometimes.

1486
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:56,400
So it shows the power of this concept, this phenomenon, how everybody experiences it and

1487
01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:59,360
it's okay to acknowledge its role.

1488
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:05,680
But he's a very humble individual even though he's at such a high level that he's gone with

1489
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:07,480
his study of this concept.

1490
01:42:07,480 --> 01:42:10,480
So yeah, I really, I love his approach to talking about it.

1491
01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:13,240
I think it's receivable to any type of person.

1492
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:14,240
Beautiful.

1493
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:20,560
What about films or documentaries?

1494
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:27,520
Let's see, trying to think of one that is related to this field in particular.

1495
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:31,920
Documentaries.

1496
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:34,720
I just watched, oh, I know a good one.

1497
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:37,280
It's the rugby one with Nelson Mandela.

1498
01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:41,680
No, what's it called?

1499
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:45,800
It's about the South African rugby team that won the World Cup against all odds.

1500
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:51,840
It was fueled by Nelson Mandela's efforts to unite the country under civil unrest.

1501
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:55,960
It starts with a V. It's not victorious.

1502
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:56,960
I do.

1503
01:42:56,960 --> 01:42:59,320
I don't remember the name of it, but yeah, it was a spring box, wasn't it?

1504
01:42:59,320 --> 01:43:00,320
Yeah.

1505
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:04,400
And there was the massive mutual respect between the team captain and Nelson Mandela.

1506
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:05,400
Yes.

1507
01:43:05,400 --> 01:43:06,400
Yeah.

1508
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:07,400
That was a really cool one.

1509
01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:09,320
I just watched it on a plane recently.

1510
01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:12,000
That was a really uplifting one.

1511
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:16,520
It's one that I think can parallel a lot of things in our current political landscape

1512
01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:23,720
and an optimistic view and a shift of humanitarianism uniting a country and fueling it in positive

1513
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:24,720
ways.

1514
01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:25,720
Yeah.

1515
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:30,880
I think it's a cool one based on you could go on the news and be very disheartened by

1516
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:37,480
some of the things that maybe depending on whatever your stance is, it's a really just

1517
01:43:37,480 --> 01:43:43,040
great film to uplift individuals and kind of ground you a little bit that we're all

1518
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:44,040
human.

1519
01:43:44,040 --> 01:43:48,160
We all are after the same thing of freeing ourselves from suffering and creating peace

1520
01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:52,120
and contributing towards common good.

1521
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:53,120
So I enjoyed that.

1522
01:43:53,120 --> 01:43:58,920
It was a really fun film to watch for the current state of our situation.

1523
01:43:58,920 --> 01:43:59,920
I think it's needed.

1524
01:43:59,920 --> 01:44:06,320
I'm actually just started the minute baby steps towards making the last book I wrote

1525
01:44:06,320 --> 01:44:12,120
into a series and that's going to be the exact underlying element is putting hope into a

1526
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:18,240
kind of human experience story where the struggles but also kind of putting compassion and empathy

1527
01:44:18,240 --> 01:44:22,880
back into where a lot of division and judgment has been forced into us.

1528
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:24,640
So I think the world needs it.

1529
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:25,640
I really do.

1530
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:30,080
I think Tiger King was a good fit at the beginning of COVID to make yourself feel better about

1531
01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:32,760
yourself by watching a shit show of a life.

1532
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:38,440
But I think now people need to have that kind of inspirational glue that pulls all the normal

1533
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:43,400
people in the middle back together again that were cleaved by the extremists of both sides.

1534
01:44:43,400 --> 01:44:45,280
Yeah, 100%.

1535
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:48,520
I'm excited for you to break ground on that book.

1536
01:44:48,520 --> 01:44:54,040
It's a much needed topic and the more stories of success like that that we can illuminate

1537
01:44:54,040 --> 01:45:02,520
and bring people together with these positive examples set, it's going to be moving.

1538
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:09,160
I think a lot of people are waiting for that change and aspire for it and the mass majority

1539
01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:14,440
of people want to meet in the middle and create a world where everybody can find success and

1540
01:45:14,440 --> 01:45:15,440
happiness.

1541
01:45:15,440 --> 01:45:21,280
I hope it becomes more universally put out into the world just like where our social

1542
01:45:21,280 --> 01:45:26,400
media is filled, our books, our films, our everyday experiences are fueled by those types

1543
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:30,040
of themes rather than ones that tear us apart.

1544
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:33,640
Maybe those algorithms on TikTok start to trend more towards that.

1545
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:34,640
Yeah, absolutely.

1546
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:38,880
All right, well then the next question, is there a person that you'd recommend to come

1547
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:43,500
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated

1548
01:45:43,500 --> 01:45:46,240
professions of the world?

1549
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:49,840
I have many mentors in the field.

1550
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:56,120
John O'Connor, ex LA city firefighter, huge mental health advocate.

1551
01:45:56,120 --> 01:46:01,840
He's a beautiful mind, a beautiful person and he's been a person I constantly go to

1552
01:46:01,840 --> 01:46:06,320
for perspective because he's been in the field for so long.

1553
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:09,720
He's just a kind of person that has walked the walk.

1554
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:12,460
He's a badass in his own right.

1555
01:46:12,460 --> 01:46:17,240
When he walks into a department, everybody takes notice and when he starts speaking,

1556
01:46:17,240 --> 01:46:21,720
it's all command presence you could ever take.

1557
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:28,120
He's a great blend of a person who wants to break the stigma of the fire industry, but

1558
01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:30,040
does it in a way that's well received.

1559
01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:34,320
I would love to see him on this podcast talking about his experience and I would love to give

1560
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:35,320
you his contact.

1561
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:36,320
That'd be amazing.

1562
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:39,880
Yeah, actually the Jose Navarro sounds like a fascinating one as well.

1563
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:41,240
Oh, oh my God.

1564
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:42,240
Yeah, him too.

1565
01:46:42,240 --> 01:46:43,240
You need both of them.

1566
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,160
Jose Navarro's speech was just mind blowing.

1567
01:46:46,160 --> 01:46:50,040
It left everybody in tears, standing applause, like a whole deal.

1568
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:54,800
It was one of the best speeches I've ever heard and he's a great individual overall

1569
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:56,320
with an inspiring story.

1570
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:57,320
Beautiful.

1571
01:46:57,320 --> 01:46:59,960
All right, we'll have to try and make both of those happen, so thank you.

1572
01:46:59,960 --> 01:47:06,800
All right, but then the next question, what do you do to decompress?

1573
01:47:06,800 --> 01:47:11,120
I have a gauntlet of tools, I would say.

1574
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:14,880
Surfing is probably one of the ones I could lean on for the last five years that's been

1575
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:18,800
a game changer, whether it's before a test, before a big meeting.

1576
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:24,640
The cold water emerging combined with stillness, combined with an adrenaline rush of, I don't

1577
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:28,960
know, I don't need to go out and catch a ton of waves, but if I do, that's obviously a

1578
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:30,480
cool perk to it.

1579
01:47:30,480 --> 01:47:35,160
Just going out and distancing in some way visually really helps me.

1580
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:40,320
Whether it's a trail run and at the top taking a moment to admire the view or going to the

1581
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:45,600
ocean and looking into the broad horizon, something that grounds me because of just

1582
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:52,960
how big the world is and how small you are in comparison, that's probably my most successful

1583
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:54,440
tool of decompressing.

1584
01:47:54,440 --> 01:48:00,120
If you ever get caught up and you start to fixate on little issues, if you go do something

1585
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:05,840
like that and just put yourself in that kind of state in awe and admiration of nature or

1586
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:09,480
something of that magnitude, it just dissipates.

1587
01:48:09,480 --> 01:48:12,880
You just naturally start to let those worries fall.

1588
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:16,880
There's evidence and things you can look at to support that strategy and the efficacy

1589
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:21,960
of it, but subjectively, it's something I found myself just doing constantly.

1590
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:27,740
I think it's contributed a lot to the success I've had, the ability to approach stressful

1591
01:48:27,740 --> 01:48:31,160
situations and come at them with a good headspace.

1592
01:48:31,160 --> 01:48:36,580
Instead of letting that internal dialogue direct me on a negative path, just involving

1593
01:48:36,580 --> 01:48:42,120
myself in nature-based activities has automatically given me an outlet to get back to my roots,

1594
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:47,000
show me that this moment is not as drastic as you think it is.

1595
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:49,280
Five years from now, this won't be an issue.

1596
01:48:49,280 --> 01:48:53,680
It gives me an amazing free tool that's always accessible to me, thankfully.

1597
01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:54,680
Beautiful.

1598
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:57,580
Well, for people listening, firstly, Hotshot Wellness.

1599
01:48:57,580 --> 01:49:01,780
Remind us again where we can find that, where they can register for the event and all these

1600
01:49:01,780 --> 01:49:03,200
other areas.

1601
01:49:03,200 --> 01:49:04,740
Yeah.

1602
01:49:04,740 --> 01:49:07,880
You can look at our website.

1603
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:10,560
It's hotshotwellness.org and it's under events.

1604
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:14,880
You can go to it'll take you to the Eventbrite page where all you'll need to do is sign up

1605
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:19,480
for whatever days you want to attend and it's all free.

1606
01:49:19,480 --> 01:49:23,680
You can use the same link if you are a department and you want to watch it together.

1607
01:49:23,680 --> 01:49:26,080
You can click and just buy one.

1608
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:29,160
You could just get one link and then everybody can use that same one.

1609
01:49:29,160 --> 01:49:35,040
There's no need to have everybody in a department or on a crew sign up for their own links.

1610
01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:37,760
You could just distribute that link however you please.

1611
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:44,280
But yeah, we have a Squarespace where all of our different platforms are under one singular

1612
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:46,880
software.

1613
01:49:46,880 --> 01:49:51,420
Our main website, our social media at Hotshot Wellness is probably the best ways to stay

1614
01:49:51,420 --> 01:49:55,400
up to date on our events, our projects, our initiatives.

1615
01:49:55,400 --> 01:50:01,280
Our website is continuing to develop with a resource hub that is a developing process

1616
01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:06,660
where the goal is to create this all-encompassing platform where individuals can go and find

1617
01:50:06,660 --> 01:50:11,680
practitioners to help them with various things they want to work on, whether it's a dietitian

1618
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:15,800
that's necessary, a physical therapist, a strength and conditioning coach, a physician,

1619
01:50:15,800 --> 01:50:21,540
a mental health expert, also looking up validated articles and publications, new research that

1620
01:50:21,540 --> 01:50:25,960
comes out with respect to first responders, wildland members in particular.

1621
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:29,680
Maybe it has to do with smoke exposure or reproductive health or women's health, like

1622
01:50:29,680 --> 01:50:38,200
just a cascade of articles, resources, lectures, application, opportunity, contacts, just the

1623
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:41,840
central hub where if you have an issue, you have something you want to work on, you can

1624
01:50:41,840 --> 01:50:43,600
find the solution within that hub.

1625
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:45,440
So stay tuned for that.

1626
01:50:45,440 --> 01:50:49,680
That's a grand vision for us and it's an ongoing project because it's super monumental

1627
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,480
in its landscape.

1628
01:50:51,480 --> 01:50:55,900
So yeah, that's something we're really psyched on and think is going to break some ground

1629
01:50:55,900 --> 01:50:57,240
in the upcoming weeks.

1630
01:50:57,240 --> 01:50:58,240
Fantastic.

1631
01:50:58,240 --> 01:50:59,240
And what about you?

1632
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:00,240
I want to reach out to you.

1633
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,320
Where are the best places?

1634
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:07,920
You could reach out to me with a DM at the healthy underscore hotshot account.

1635
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:09,560
That's my personal one.

1636
01:51:09,560 --> 01:51:11,920
Or you could DM our hotshot wellness account.

1637
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:12,920
My email I'll make accessible.

1638
01:51:12,920 --> 01:51:18,220
I don't know if I'm going to get out my phone number yet, but I'll make my my justin at

1639
01:51:18,220 --> 01:51:23,800
hotshot wellness dot org email available to everybody as well as those Instagram pages.

1640
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:24,800
Fantastic.

1641
01:51:24,800 --> 01:51:26,600
Well, Justin, I want to say thank you so much.

1642
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:30,440
It's been such an interesting perspective coming from the strength and conditioning

1643
01:51:30,440 --> 01:51:35,280
route and we didn't really touch on this, but basically joining the wildland fire service

1644
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:39,600
to really immerse yourself and get that all important buy in that we know is essential

1645
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:44,240
in the first responder professions when it comes to people from the outside.

1646
01:51:44,240 --> 01:51:48,360
But it's such a unique lens that you brought to this conversation and such an amazing tool

1647
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,420
that you're bringing to the wildland community as well.

1648
01:51:51,420 --> 01:51:55,240
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1649
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:58,760
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1650
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:00,680
Thank you so much for the opportunity.

1651
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:02,300
It's a conversation I love to have.

1652
01:52:02,300 --> 01:52:06,560
It's one that I hope keeps propagating positive shifts in policy and advocacy.

1653
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:12,560
So it's an honor to be here talking about these these things related to wildland and

1654
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:14,360
first responders as a whole.

1655
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:16,760
And I'm happy to happy to have had the conversation.

1656
01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:27,200
Thanks so much.