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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself, who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now, TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impressed me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library.

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So you, the personal trainer, does not have to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming, but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career, therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries

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before they happen.

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Now if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr.com.

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And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.

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T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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and that is Rescue One CBD.

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For any of you who have listened to this podcast for the last eight years, you will have heard

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my own personal journey from using prescription pills after a knee surgery to finding CBD

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and having incredible success with that.

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I then saw my son's wheezing diminish, my wife's anxiety and so many more kind of success

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stories.

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The problem is though, I've also seen the stigma and misunderstanding about this incredibly

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powerful plant medicine.

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When it comes to workplace drug testing, it's THC that they are looking for.

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The concentration is higher in marijuana, but there is a small amount in most CBD products.

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And with John being a veteran firefighter paramedic himself, he was determined to find

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a product that was pure, that would ensure there was nothing in there that would put

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someone's career at risk.

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So he developed a three tier system.

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The third party testing facility tests to parts per billion, which is the most minute

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amount I have ever heard of in all the time I've worked with CBD.

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The results of every batch are posted on their website so you can literally see the same

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results that they see from the batch that you are ordering.

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Secondly, they include workplace drug test kits in the order when you order it.

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So if you have any fears, you get to do it just to appease it, even though this is a

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pure and safe product.

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Thirdly, they've just finished a year long study with the University of Maryland and

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Arcadia University and firefighters from all over the country sent in their urine samples

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and not a single person failed a drug test.

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So you have three different tiers of trust with this particular product.

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Now they have different flavors for their CBD.

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For anyone that's had it that's just the CBD oil, it does not taste good.

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So they found a way of making it more palatable.

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They have a sleep remedy that has terpenes in, again, completely safe.

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That one's called out of service.

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And then topical CBD, obviously for aches and pains on the outside.

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Now on top of all that, Rescue One is offering you, the listener of the Behind the Shield

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podcast, 15% off your order if you use the code BTS, as in behind the shield.

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And you can find all of their products.

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You can find all of the testing and understand why this truly is a product that you can trust

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by going to rescue1cbd.com.

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And you can listen to my conversation with John on episode 1011 of the Behind the Shield

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podcast.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome back

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onto the show, Frank Lieb and Dina Ali.

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Now Frank and Dina have both been on the show individually.

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So this time I brought them on together and we discuss a host of topics.

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The First Responder Center for Excellence, Firefighter Fitness, Dina's book, Hope Out

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of Darkness, their Fire Service Mental Wellness and Suicide Prevention Symposium, and so much

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more.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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With that being said, I welcome back onto the show Frank Lieb and Dina Ali.

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Enjoy.

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Frank and Dina, I want to start by saying firstly, thank you so much for coming on the

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Behind the Shield podcast.

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Secondly, because Dina is stranded mid flight at the moment, so she's in Dallas.

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Have I got that right?

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Right outside of Dallas at the colony.

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Beautiful.

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So the brotherhood and sisterhood I just learned right before we jumped on, you had to sit

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in Dallas for a while.

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So Dallas has actually picked you up and you're sitting in one of their stations as we speak.

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It's awesome.

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I missed my flight by two minutes and the next one out was nine hours.

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So I texted a friend of mine at the colony fire department, Chief Garrett Rice, and he

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said I'll be there in 20 minutes.

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Yeah, that to me is why we do what we do because the fire service is a beautiful thing and

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it is a calling and getting it back on track to that real community element I think is

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so important.

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Yeah, initially I was super bummed that I lost the entire day.

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And then it just quickly transitioned to what a great experience today has been.

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I got to see some good friends.

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Chief Thompson here is nationally known for his work.

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And so I've got to spend the day here sitting down.

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We just talked about the project he's working on.

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So it's amazing.

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And I think Chief Leib says this a lot, like we're the lucky ones.

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And you think about that on a day like today, like who else in the world can end up stranded

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in a city that they've never been in their life and end up totally taken care of?

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Absolutely.

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I actually went to St. Pete.

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My wife is doing recertification for her optician.

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She's about to be an optometrist, but she's keeping that up.

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And so one of my friends had become a St. Pete firefighter not too long ago.

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The most amazing experience.

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I felt like I was back in Anaheim.

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I sat with them for four hours.

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We started with lunch and then ended with another like three hours of bullshit and firehouse

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jokes and it was phenomenal.

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So yeah.

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Well Chief, where are we finding you today?

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We are the lucky ones.

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So I'm not in Texas, but I do have my Texas coffee mug just for Dina and for the colony

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and Scott Thompson.

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Great people in that department.

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And like how cool is that?

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Right?

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I just, the inclusive hospitality of the fire service that you could be stranded in an airport,

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make a phone call and somebody comes and picks you up.

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Like it's, we are truly the lucky ones.

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Where am I?

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I'm in cold, snowy New York.

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I've spent a lot of time in some warm climates recently.

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So I'm still cold.

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I'm wearing my sweatshirt.

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Although I love this sweatshirt.

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It's my Pacific Northwest Fire Conference sweatshirt that I absolutely love.

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It instantly became my favorite sweatshirt.

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And you think about like all the great conferences around the country.

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This is certainly one of them.

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Dina and I both spoke there, but yeah, I'm home for another week or so and then I'll

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be on the road a little bit, but it's good to be home.

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Well you're traditionally known for some pretty cold weather, even seasonally.

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What has been the impact of this polar vortex that we're all seeing?

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Well, so the impact has been taking a look at what's going on down south.

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All the pictures of snow, like they don't know what to do.

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I'm like, I don't build a snowman.

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That's what you should do.

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Enjoy it.

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You may never see snow in your life again.

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Seeing snow in New Orleans and Pensacola and on the beach and seeing people shoveling snow

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in shorts.

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It's just a couple of snowmen that I've seen, but they're not built for it.

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Snow's not for the weak, that's for sure.

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I've texted a couple of people that to break their chops a little bit, but it'll be gone

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before they know it.

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It'll be back to the beach and the sand.

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But for here, we have a week where we won't see it above 32.

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I'm able to take my granddaughter who just turned three out snow sledding, which she

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absolutely loved.

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So it's all right.

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It's all good.

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I was hoping we were going to get some here.

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I saw the videos of Pensacola.

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Even driving to Jiu-Jitsu today, there were cars with giant slabs of snow and ice falling

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off on the freeway.

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So it was just north of us.

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But we had it when my son was really young.

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It must have been about 15 years ago now in Ocala.

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We only had enough to make it like a three inch snowman.

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So I had to give him Q-tip arms just to try and animate him a little bit.

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But yeah, I haven't seen snow in Florida since.

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And I was hoping last night it was going to happen, but we were just too far south.

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And what's really cool is that some of these areas, they got six to 10 inches of snow.

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That's plenty of snow.

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You could build a fort.

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You could build a snow family.

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My goodness, with that much snow.

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So get out and enjoy it.

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And I see many, many people have.

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So Heat Miser allowed the south, allowed South Town to get snow.

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I mean, sharing a clip of that with some people too, with the mayor of South Town singing

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that it's going to snow in South Town because they got it.

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I mean, think about it.

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It could be another generation before you get that.

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So stay off the road, stay home, listen to the podcast instead.

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Absolutely.

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All right.

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So for both of you, Dina, you were my guest on episode 77.

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So I didn't realize it was that long ago.

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We're talking probably six and a half years ago.

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And then Frank, it was 708, which is a little bit more recent.

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So let's start with you.

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You were FDNY last time we spoke.

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Talk to me about your transition now.

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And I'd love to even hear your personal experience as we know that transition, that kind of loss

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of tribe, loss of purpose can be jarring for many of our men and women.

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You've gone into a path that you're still helping this community.

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So how was that transition for you and what made you even pull the trigger in the first

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place?

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Yeah.

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Well, first off, so you think about Dina was on your podcast six and a half years ago.

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You think about how long she's been at this, trying to make a difference and doing what

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she's been doing and how long you've been at this.

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So kudos to both of you for the long-term dedication that you've had for firefighters.

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Because this topic is only finally starting to get some of the traction and the recognition

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that it needs.

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So six and a half years ago, the audience that was listening to these topics was unfortunately

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very small.

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And that has changed and in a great part, thanks to both of you.

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So just hearing that it was six years ago, and I'm very recent on your show, I appreciate

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what you guys, both of you bring to the table and that long-term knowing that unfortunately

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it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

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We wish it was a sprint, right?

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Where we could say this is what we should be doing and we would do it and things would

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be better.

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Anyway, so I retired June 27th of last year and I did 31 years, 247 days I think it was,

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but who's counting?

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And so before I retired, I actually took the position of the managing director of the First

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Responder Center for Excellence.

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His timing is everything.

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And I'd been working with them for the past just about six years in advisory capacity

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on their cancer advisory and doing some consultant work for them on occasion.

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So it was a natural fit, especially when the current managing director was going to be

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leaving and then number two was going to be leaving going to the NFFF.

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So it just, I had the most experience with the First Responder Center for Excellence

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and then took that position.

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As far as the transition out of the FDNY, so here's the bottom line, right?

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So I can live to be 150 years old and I'll never go to enough fires to satisfy my appetite

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to go to fires.

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I absolutely love going to fires.

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I love being the nozzle firefighter.

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I love being the force bluntary firefighter.

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I love being the chief.

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I love being the first two chief.

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I love being the interior chief as operations.

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I love all of that.

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But firefighting is a young person's job.

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And I joke around sometimes that eventually you promote yourself out of a good job.

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But somebody has to, right?

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Somebody has to continue to promote for the betterment of the organization.

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And I felt it was my time to do that.

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And I did it.

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And as a staff chief in the FDNY, I also like to say your age in dog years.

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And you should only do it for a limited amount of time.

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I always knew at some point I wanted to get out while I was still relatively young and

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relatively healthy.

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I probably left a little bit earlier than I was planning on because of some of the political

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environment in New York City.

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But I'm not one to really look back.

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I look forward.

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I think that we've done amazing stuff with the First Responder Center for Excellence,

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before I became the managing director and now as the managing director.

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And we've brought on some people.

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We're trying to deepen our bench.

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And so we have a small bench, but we do have a deep bench.

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And one of the key acquisitions was to bring on Dina Alley to run our behavioral health

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programs.

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And as you pointed out earlier, how much she's already done in that area, it was really a

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no-brainer.

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And coupled that with the fact that I had just read her book, I was very fortunate that

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she asked me to write the foreword for the book.

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So I had read the book before it was published, long before it was published.

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So what reading the book did for me was reinforce that I was choosing the right person to bring

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on to do this.

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And I absolutely did bring on the right person.

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As you pointed out, she's a rock star in what she does.

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So we're thrilled to have her.

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And I've brought on some other people.

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So the transition has been from leaving the FDNY to the FRCE has really been okay for

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me because I've been involved.

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Now at times I'll see a big fire on the news and I'll be like, I would have been at that

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fire.

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And then I wish I could go to that, but I could walk into any firehouse and still sit

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at the kitchen table.

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You never leave the FDNY.

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It's ingrained in our culture that our retired members are always welcome, is always seated

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at the table for us.

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And no matter what we do, I'm involved with different organizations within the FDNY.

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So when it comes to that, it's really all about missing the fires and even the runs

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with the brothers and sisters as a battalion chief, especially where I loved going out

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the door with my people and talking to them in between runs or at the kitchen table, just

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always being engaged and making sure that we were doing all we could to be better.

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So the transition has been relatively easy.

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Do I want to still go to fires?

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Of course, I'll want to go to fires until I die.

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But you find different ways to give back and stay involved.

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I'll never fully retire from the fire service.

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I just love it too much.

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And I love the people that serve in our profession too much to ever leave it.

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I couldn't agree more.

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That's why I didn't even promote.

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I loved being first through the door.

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I think my final fire will probably be in the crematorium, so I'll get one more before

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I'm completely gone.

329
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All right.

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00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,920
Well, then, Dina, let's kind of bring you in.

331
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,600
Let's get you up to speed as far as six and a half years to where we are now.

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00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,640
We'll talk about the book in a little bit as well, of course.

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00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:00,560
But as far as your career, the impact that you've been able to have on the mental health

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00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,280
side, walk us through the last few.

335
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,520
Yeah, look back.

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00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,160
Amazing to think how much has happened.

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Six and a half years isn't a long time.

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00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:20,160
But even talking about your podcast, 900 episodes, it's been a long time in terms of the work

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00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,400
that we've been doing, especially with mental health.

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I remember when we first spoke in 2018, I felt really confident with the work that I

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was doing and the messaging that I was delivering.

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But every year since then, I've realized that there's more and that there's more to share.

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00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,280
And a really neat thing about getting to work with Chief Leib at the First Responder Center

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for Excellence is one of his primary missions is finding people who can translate the research.

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And back in 2018, I was finding the research and I was so amazed by the research that was

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out there, yet the fire department was unaware of.

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So I kind of was able to get my foot in the door by just sharing some of the research

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that I had found.

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But the greatest learning point in the last six years is not only translating the research,

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but then applying it.

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00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:16,720
How do we introduce it to the field?

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00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,320
Because it's really easy for Florida State University to conduct research on the fire

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00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,640
service and offer recommendations, but they're not there doing the work.

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So some of the recommendations aren't really applicable.

355
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,640
But yeah, I think when we first talked, I was a newer captain.

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Now I'm a newer battalion chief and there's a lot of growth and perspective there.

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And with Chief Leib, he likes to build people up.

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So I'll build him back up before I turn it over.

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One of the coolest things about meeting him and getting to work with him was I was at

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FDIC just looking over class evaluations and this FDNY chief walks up to me who I would

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00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,080
never go talk to because who am I?

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And he's like, hey, I'm Frank Leib.

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Are you Dean Alley?

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I've read some of your work.

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I appreciate the work you're doing.

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And the fact that this guy from the FDNY who is well known and speaking in FDIC, kind of

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00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,400
a big deal, is coming up to me telling me that he's read my work.

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That was huge to me.

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And I sat in a couple of his classes, read some of his articles and just realized what

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a good person he is.

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But one of my favorite things about him is he wasn't that person that was like all in

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your face, look at me.

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He was kind of behind the scenes making a difference.

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So that's why I asked him to write my forward because I wanted my forward to have like characters

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00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,640
to it.

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I didn't want it just to be, you know, some big name who may not know anything about the

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00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,120
subject matter.

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00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:42,360
I wanted it to be somebody that matters, who's also passionate about the subject matter.

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00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,320
And at the time, I didn't realize I was interviewing for a job.

380
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:46,960
So that turned out to be really cool.

381
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,000
We'll stay with you for a second.

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00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,240
One of the, you know, if you want to get me pissed off about, for example, the shifts,

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00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,760
then just say, oh, I need to see the data first.

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00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,600
Because I realized two things.

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00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,200
Firstly, you're asking, for example, if we're talking 24 72, and I won't dive down that

386
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,840
yet, but you're asking me, can you prove that a 56 hour workweek is better than a 42 hour

387
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:10,840
week?

388
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,040
We need to go to a lab for that.

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00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:18,120
But secondly, the absence of a lot of research when it comes to our wellness, there isn't

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00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:19,660
a lot, the least that I saw.

391
00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:25,300
So what, you know, when you first took that deep dive, as far as actual pertinent to the

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00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:28,120
fire service, what were you seeing early on?

393
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,400
And have you seen a growth?

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00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,840
Because if we waited for the research, in my opinion, we'd never fix anything because

395
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,680
it's taking so long to actually collate pertinent data.

396
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,360
No, 100%.

397
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:44,760
And before we got on the show, we were sharing about an article that Frank and I just wrote

398
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,080
and a class that we're doing based on that.

399
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:53,240
And the premise behind that is actually it's time to rethink our practices.

400
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,560
And one of my favorite quotes, and it's kind of a quote when you look at the article is,

401
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,880
you know, we're not going to cure this away.

402
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,160
And what we've learned for years and years and years looking at mental health, specifically

403
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,520
within the fire service, everybody's looking at the individual and looking at how to get

404
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,920
people to ask for help and get treatment and how to cure people.

405
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,100
And what we realize is it's not about curing people.

406
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:19,080
It's about communities and, you know, very early in the show, you had Sebastian Younger

407
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,480
tried.

408
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:28,240
And he explained how, you know, these tribalized societies who see violence, who are exposed

409
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,200
to violence, who are fighting day in and day out, their mental health is really good.

410
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,200
And why is that?

411
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,420
What's the difference?

412
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:42,120
And a lot of it has to do with community and our basic level of love and caring for each

413
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,120
other.

414
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,280
You don't need a research paper to tell you to care about other people.

415
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,280
Right.

416
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,380
And so for me, it's almost been full circle, you know, initially for anybody to listen

417
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:56,160
to me, they wanted to know, OK, where's the research behind what I'm saying?

418
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:01,300
What's the evidence that proves that what you're saying can be believed and trusted

419
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:02,300
and implemented?

420
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:04,320
It has to be evidence based.

421
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,320
And it's fascinating.

422
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:11,360
Like the full circle is, man, all the stuff that we're doing naturally is the stuff that

423
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:12,720
takes care of us.

424
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:20,080
It's the stuff that keeps us keeps us healthy, keeps us connected, which gives us that purpose

425
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,760
to continue moving forward.

426
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,760
Absolutely.

427
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,840
I was actually kind of thinking earlier today, imagine if people in Henry VIII times were

428
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,960
like, well, I'm not going to grow wheat that way unless you show me studies.

429
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,880
You know, for the longest time, there were no studies.

430
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,880
We were just doing it and it was passed on and we knew it worked.

431
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,320
And I remember something that you said, actually, all those years ago, and I've brought it up

432
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,920
a few times, if we actually really refound community the way it's supposed to be, we

433
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,000
wouldn't even need peer support anymore.

434
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,320
And I agree because we are peer support.

435
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,520
That is what it actually is.

436
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,560
It is a station full of people that give a shit about each other.

437
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,280
And that same brotherhood and sisterhood you're experiencing now sitting in another department

438
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,440
station in the middle of the country is what we need to hang on to and refine because this,

439
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,520
you know, whether it's on a national scale or within a department, this divisiveness

440
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,000
and this breakdown of communication through cell phones and all the other factors that

441
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,400
I'm sure will kind of extrapolate, this is the enemy to mental health, you know, without

442
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,120
even mentioning sleep deprivation.

443
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:28,160
Completely and one of the messages that I've been spreading more lately is I would love

444
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,720
to put peer support out of business.

445
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,220
Peer support was a beautiful idea, and the beginning of my research, every solution surrounded

446
00:27:36,220 --> 00:27:40,360
social support and the need for community and the value of community.

447
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,360
And continuously, that was the solution.

448
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:46,960
And peer support was even more effective because you were looking at people who had similar

449
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:53,840
experiences, and those people could actually help, you know, show a path for others struggling.

450
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,400
But what I've seen since then is that every department has implemented peer support.

451
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,760
We found the experts, we've certified them, we've given them certifications, and now what's

452
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,000
happening is when somebody shows up at their firehouse and they're going through a divorce

453
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,080
or, you know, they've had a major loss and they come in and they're struggling, nobody

454
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,460
feels that they should be able to talk to them unless they have that certification.

455
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:23,360
So now we've drawn a line between people and the support that was always inherent in our

456
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:24,360
profession.

457
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:28,640
So one of the things I always say now is I would love to put peer support, you know,

458
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,360
formalized peer support out of business because this is what we all need to be doing.

459
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:35,240
What we teach in the two-day class is nothing specialized.

460
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,420
You're not certified.

461
00:28:36,420 --> 00:28:40,520
We give you a certificate of attendance because everybody needs a certificate to upload to

462
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,200
Target Solutions.

463
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,320
But it's not a certification.

464
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,740
It is literally learning active listening, learning about resources and helping to connect

465
00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:51,240
people to those resources.

466
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,240
Absolutely.

467
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,760
Well, Frank, let's turn it over to you.

468
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:55,880
So what were you seeing?

469
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,800
Why did this article need to be written?

470
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,200
Yeah, so first, I want to comment on a couple of things.

471
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,880
I'm like, I'm writing these things down because I'm like, I don't want to forget it.

472
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,400
But you guys were talking about that we need research, right?

473
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,280
We need all this to be done.

474
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,600
So research is important to get funding.

475
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,360
But it reminds me of the old Nextel commercial like a generation ago where it was what if

476
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,720
firefighters ruled the world?

477
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,940
And the guy gets he's up there and he says, he says, all right, so this is and he shows

478
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:29,680
like a stack of like three feet of paper.

479
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,880
This is a lot of paper to see decide if we want clean water.

480
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,880
Who wants clean water?

481
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,760
Everybody goes, I so done.

482
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,640
And he's like, this is easy, you know, as he goes through all these different things.

483
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:47,400
And so I think about a study that was done on on on gear washing a couple of years ago.

484
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,280
And it was the study was that I think it was in Boston, that if you have a gear washer

485
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,680
in quarters, you're more likely to wash your gear.

486
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:02,760
Duh, like isn't like isn't that of course, if I have a washing machine at home, I'm more

487
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,400
likely to wash my clothes today rather than wait for it to pile up and go to the laundromat.

488
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,980
I mean, I just you know, just like the and you mentioned it, you started it.

489
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:16,600
So I'm going to I'm going to chime in on this.

490
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,960
The 40 hour work week or the 56 hour work week or whatever variation in between.

491
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,040
Where did the 56 hour work week come from?

492
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,560
And the FDA, why we do a 40 hour work week, you can't.

493
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,480
Why would we want a 56 hour work week?

494
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,960
We should be aiming for closer to a 40 hour work week.

495
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,440
Just like everybody else.

496
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,320
When we think about recruitment, young young kids today, they don't want to work 40 hours

497
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,780
in somewhere necessarily.

498
00:30:41,780 --> 00:30:43,820
You think now they want to work 56.

499
00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:48,240
What is that impact of that extra night tour do?

500
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,920
And you know, the only way I can think about how do we come up with a 56 hour work week

501
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,880
is that I know departments that if you don't go out after midnight, they don't pay you

502
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,000
for the eight hours from midnight to 8 a.m., which is crazy.

503
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,000
Right.

504
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,360
But so you think about that.

505
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,720
That's three night tours, eight, eight and eight.

506
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,200
Do the math that went from a 40 hour work week to a 56 hour work week.

507
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,040
How is that acceptable?

508
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,800
How do we allow our pay to be based on a 56 hour work week or any variation above a 40

509
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:18,800
hour work week?

510
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,440
When we think about sleep deprivation, all these things that we know are impacting us.

511
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,880
So we're looking at all of these different work schedules.

512
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:32,020
But I haven't seen too many people looking at working a schedule that is 40 hours a work

513
00:31:32,020 --> 00:31:33,020
week.

514
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:38,020
And I couldn't imagine a work week in the FDNY would be as busy as we are.

515
00:31:38,020 --> 00:31:42,400
And I'm not even talking about fires, as busy as we are going out the door all day long

516
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,400
and all night long.

517
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:49,120
You know, why would we allow our profession to continue to go down a road that we know

518
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,840
from research now and there's more research being done on this now.

519
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,080
We know that that's not the optimal way to get sleep.

520
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,700
That's not optimal way that we should be doing things.

521
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:05,640
So I just had to get that out there because you because you commented on it.

522
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,000
Impreciations of the choir and I love it.

523
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,160
I think it's something that we have to talk about.

524
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,920
And as far as peer support, what Dina said, I love it.

525
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:14,920
It's right on.

526
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
We're all we're all peer support.

527
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,680
So this idea of we need special people that are going to get the training.

528
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,720
We all should know what are the things that we should be doing for peer support to make

529
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,520
sure we're taking care of our brothers and sisters.

530
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,720
Like what are the 10 commandments of being a peer support person?

531
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:36,720
Right.

532
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,720
What what that means?

533
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,480
What does the firefighter who comes in on day one need to know?

534
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:48,240
And or that five year firefighter who what is that firefighter have to know to make sure

535
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,560
they're taking care of that brand new person when they start on day one and the first call

536
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,880
they get isn't a working fire.

537
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,160
It's a car accident and somebody somebody dies at that car accident.

538
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,600
And for this 23 year old firefighter, that brand new firefighter, it's the first time

539
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,520
they've ever been exposed to death, that type of stress in their life.

540
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,240
And we go back to the firehouse.

541
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,880
And for most of us, we go on.

542
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,880
We've learned to cope.

543
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,160
We've learned to deal with it in different ways, some productive, some unproductive.

544
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:22,840
But how does we may sit at the kitchen table and have our own dark humor that what are

545
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,160
we doing to that firefighter?

546
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,600
We have to make sure that we preload this firefighter with the knowledge that they need

547
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,360
to know while they're in probably school, while they're new.

548
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,680
But we also have to make sure that our middle of the road firefighters, those other fight

549
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,840
have have the training that they're able to be that first peer support person for that

550
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,000
individual along those lines.

551
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,440
We have to extend it to their loved ones as well.

552
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:51,720
Our loved ones need to have education on because they had a first first responder for us when

553
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:52,720
we go home.

554
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,800
So two things on that that you hit.

555
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,480
So first of all, with the peer support, our North Carolina peer support program, one of

556
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,600
the things that we open with is a quote from Brene Brown.

557
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:09,280
And it says, when you attach judgment to receiving help, you knowingly or unknowingly attached

558
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,920
judgment to giving help.

559
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,920
So basically, in order to be really good at peer support, you have to understand that

560
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,960
you're no better than the person who needs peer support.

561
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,480
At some point, we all need help and we all need to reach out.

562
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,920
And if you're unwilling to reach out, you're always going to attach judgment to reaching

563
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,920
out.

564
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:30,440
And one of the greatest inhibitors to peer support is judging others.

565
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,040
And what's fascinating to me about that is a lot of people who want the certifications

566
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:41,400
and who want to certify are less likely to be people who will admit that they need help.

567
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,680
And that's why ensuring that we're all peer supporters is so important.

568
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,360
But then what's super fascinating about all of that and the conversation that we just

569
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:55,720
had about the research, you want evidence based research to enact peer support and to

570
00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:56,720
have a clinician.

571
00:34:56,720 --> 00:35:04,880
Yet, we now have all this evidence based research that tells us if that's asleep, why aren't

572
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,440
we utilizing that to make policy changes?

573
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,600
Why are we requiring the research to implement important resources?

574
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:20,760
But when we have the research that says sleep disruption causes poor decision making, is

575
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,800
causal of cancer, can lead to PTSD, we disregard that research.

576
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,360
And that's what's always been fascinating to me is how we pick and choose the research

577
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:30,360
that we use.

578
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:37,640
Absolutely, well, I want to go back to Frank on something that you talked about.

579
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,800
I don't hear a lot of conversation, it's not blaming the Northeast, but I don't hear

580
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:48,200
the conversation of the inequity within the fire service and where I'll use Anaheim an

581
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,520
example, which is my favorite fire department, they were phenomenal.

582
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,120
We mirrored a lot of stuff on the FDNY, we use some of your hose loads, we use obviously

583
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:02,720
the California roof ops, but people are always looking to Boston, to New York for so many

584
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,560
areas, but not the work week.

585
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:13,360
So why is there resistance to that conversation exactly what you were just telling us, yet

586
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:20,960
everyone's fine with all the kind of operational stuff from the FDNY?

587
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:27,100
That's a good question, and I think to whether it's the work schedule, or whether it's any

588
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:33,680
other really wicked problem that we don't have the answer, we don't know the best way

589
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,440
to solve the problem.

590
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:43,200
But I have seen some departments that have at least tried to add an additional shift.

591
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,680
They've done some things that they can to try and combat and try and make a difference

592
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:54,360
in some of these areas, but it's a wicked problem, right?

593
00:36:54,360 --> 00:37:01,320
Figuring that out the pathway forward, because that costs money to go to a lesser hour work

594
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,320
week.

595
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,320
Yeah, well what we're seeing in a lot of departments is their money is there.

596
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,320
It's just downstream.

597
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,160
I was just Googling this quote because I love it.

598
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,040
I'm actually going to write a piece on it.

599
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,160
Desmond Tutu once said, there comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people

600
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,400
out of the river.

601
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,120
We need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in.

602
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,120
This is the thing.

603
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:25,560
If you look downstream financially, most departments are bleeding millions and millions and millions

604
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,800
of dollars in overtime, in lack of recruitment.

605
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,400
They're training these young people, and then they go work somewhere else two, three years

606
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,400
later.

607
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,120
So with the money thing, this is what drives me crazy is not all, but most departments,

608
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,120
the money is there.

609
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,480
It's just being mismanaged.

610
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:46,240
So it's just reinvesting into their people, creating that D shift, and then that in turn

611
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,240
is going to attract young people back into the profession.

612
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:55,120
And then the recruitment will go back to how Dina and I found it, which is trying forever

613
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,120
and competing against thousands of people to just get a handful of spots.

614
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,600
That's what the fire service should look like.

615
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Yeah.

616
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,280
And I think that's a great point.

617
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,120
And Dina has that quote in her book.

618
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:14,800
She uses that often, that whole engineering solutions is a big part of her mantra.

619
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,880
If I've heard her say that quote once, I've heard her say it 50 times.

620
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,520
And I now use that quote as well.

621
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,640
But I think, so the money's there, right?

622
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:32,480
And moving it upstream would require effort, and it would require probably in the first

623
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,840
couple of years, extra money, because it would also, training, injuries, careers cut short,

624
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,560
all of that will have downstream payback.

625
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,200
But Ben Franklin was right.

626
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,400
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

627
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:54,400
In fact, an ounce of prevention is probably worth many pounds of cure.

628
00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,440
But the ability to shift that funding upstream would mean temporarily spending more money

629
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,680
upstream to get to that point.

630
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,960
And I think that's what makes this a wicked challenge and a wicked problem for people

631
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,000
to overcome.

632
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,160
But we're overworking our people.

633
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,720
There's not many departments that are saying that they're fully staffed, that they have

634
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:23,160
enough people where their people don't have to work a crazy amount of extra hours on top

635
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,800
of a 56-hour work week.

636
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,640
That's newsflash, that is not a recruiting tool.

637
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,200
Come work for us, and you can work 80 hours a week.

638
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,320
That doesn't work.

639
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,440
And I'll always remember, I had a firefighter.

640
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:46,360
So because of several reasons, there was a lot of reasons, we were really behind on our

641
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,120
hiring in the FDNY.

642
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,560
And I had a firefighter come up to me and they're like, Chief, if I continue to work

643
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,400
overtime, my wife is going to leave me.

644
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,640
How can you help me?

645
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,000
And I'm like, we have to help that member.

646
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,400
How do we not?

647
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,000
We're not doing our job.

648
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,880
We're not doing our job as leaders, as caring people.

649
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,000
There's so many levels.

650
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:21,960
And you know, but if you have a zero tolerance policy where you have to work no matter what,

651
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,000
then those people, when you think about the culture, when you think about what they think

652
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,400
about the organization, well, it's going to suffer.

653
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,080
The morale is going to suffer.

654
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:38,120
Because we want our people, if they're married and they have a healthy marriage, we want

655
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,200
it to continue that way.

656
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:47,080
And when you're not home, the added stress on that is enormous.

657
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,960
I'll never forget when I had a firefighter and took me on a side and told me that.

658
00:40:51,960 --> 00:41:00,440
And we just, we got to find a way to do better with that and make it where there is a work-life

659
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,240
balance when members want it.

660
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,000
There's always going to be people who want to work.

661
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,000
Well, they're great.

662
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,000
Let them work.

663
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,840
But there's people that know that they're working too much and it starts to impact negatively

664
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,840
other aspects of their life.

665
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,600
Dina, you had something to add?

666
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:18,960
I completely agree.

667
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,800
And we're seeing that in every single aspect.

668
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,720
For example, we know Generation Z, this new generation, they value work-life balance.

669
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:27,720
And we see that.

670
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,720
We see the retention is difficult and a big piece of that is work-life balance.

671
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:37,280
Today, at my job, very few of the firefighters put in to work overtime.

672
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,040
It's all the captains that are putting in for it.

673
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,580
So they don't want to work extra hours.

674
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:47,520
And it's really unfortunate that we do have tremendous research that talks about the fact

675
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:54,000
that more hours do lead to more disability, more injuries, and here's the cost of this.

676
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,160
And fewer hours will actually save in that sense.

677
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:04,160
And the research on illness and cancer is undeniable, especially related to short sleep.

678
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:11,160
So to me, it seems like an absolute no-brainer to consider a 24-72, especially I know in

679
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,920
my job about three years ago in North Carolina, every department started hiring laterals because

680
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,880
we were struggling with both recruiting and retention.

681
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,600
So people were looking for laterals and they were giving bonuses and lots of people came.

682
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,840
But then within a year, they all left.

683
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:36,600
And it tells me that if we do something drastically different and take that risk 24-72, you can

684
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,560
only imagine the recruitment that would provide.

685
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,320
And then when you realize the benefits it has for health and maybe longevity, the effect

686
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:46,320
that that will have.

687
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,680
So it's just a few things that I've considered.

688
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:49,680
Yeah.

689
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:56,360
I think another area where I hear crickets and it's very disappointing is all the hot

690
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,560
guys and I'm talking about sexy and talking about hands-on training guys that are out

691
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,740
there doing their VES and the full sport entry and FDIC.

692
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:10,400
Because if you really want to forge a high-performing firefighter, then they need a high level of

693
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,280
fitness and rest and recovery, just like an athlete does.

694
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,040
So again, even if we're not talking about what I would argue is extremely important,

695
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,640
the health of the firefighter and the health of their marriage and the health of their

696
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:29,480
children, then if you really are a salty, mustachioed, leather helmet wearing fire god,

697
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,240
where is the conversation about creating an environment that forges elite performance?

698
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:39,920
Because if you haven't slept for 48, 72 hours and now you're making entry on a primary search

699
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,040
and you can't even think straight, that is a huge detriment and you might be the one

700
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,520
that burned up and that kid dies as well.

701
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,880
So I think no matter which way you look at it, even on that thing, which is I have to

702
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:50,880
subscribe to that.

703
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,840
I went to all the conferences, I took all the classes.

704
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,440
I wanted to be that person going through the window and looking for that kid.

705
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,800
But if you're going to really, really fight for that, just like your favorite athlete,

706
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:07,040
you've got to fight to be a tactical athlete, which includes the rest and recovery that

707
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:12,080
allows you to get into that flow state when you're 100 feet in the air on aerial or third

708
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,080
story primary search.

709
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:19,600
Yeah, and I just saw a video that Dr. Walker posted on his Instagram yesterday.

710
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,000
It was based on research of NBA basketball players and he shared the effects of more

711
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:32,680
sleep on performance and it hit every aspect from field goal percentage to minutes played.

712
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,640
But then what was fascinating was the reduction in fouls.

713
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:43,280
So you saw how performance went up, but also the little things that I think when you consider

714
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,000
the fire service, some of the mistakes we make on the job, because when you think of

715
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,120
a foul, it's either short temper or a mistake.

716
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:55,840
Well, on the job, we do those things and they have severe consequences.

717
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,080
So I know we haven't been able to apply that research to the decision making on the fire

718
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:07,480
ground, but it's so cut and dry, the effects of increased sleep on performance and behavior

719
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,400
that it just seems like such a no brainer.

720
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,120
And it's so unfortunate how difficult it is because I'll be honest, I know you've been

721
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:19,920
fighting and arguing for that 24 72 and we've been trying to improve our schedules, but

722
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,120
I know that in my department right now, it's almost impossible to do that.

723
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,640
So now it's trying to look for that next best alternative, which I think we can agree there's

724
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,600
truly no next best alternative.

725
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:36,200
And it's sad that we're looking at that because you see a lot of people sharing the 48 96

726
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:45,120
as being the holy grail alternative, but that's or 48 96, but that really, I mean, as a 48

727
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,360
hours in a row, is that really an optimal schedule?

728
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,600
And we know absolutely not.

729
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,600
Yeah.

730
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Well, I won't jump into that, but the study that people use to say that it was better

731
00:45:54,120 --> 00:46:00,240
if you actually listen to the episode where I had Joel, Dr. Joel Billings in, you'll discover

732
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,640
why that doesn't apply to 99% of the fire service.

733
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,880
So so yeah, well, Frank, let's get to you.

734
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,400
I mean, you were at the rock.

735
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:08,800
You were in charge of training.

736
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:15,080
So talk to me about sleep, rest and recovery and a high performing firefighter.

737
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,880
Yeah, we would we would make that a priority.

738
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:26,880
In our internal magazine, WMIF, I even I wrote an article about sleep to kind of make sure

739
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,880
that it was out there for our members to understand.

740
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Because in my career, you know, it was never about sleep.

741
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,880
It was all about, you know, staying up.

742
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,360
If I was up a whole 24, that's OK.

743
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,400
You know, I'd get a tactical nap when I could.

744
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:42,960
But I didn't mind.

745
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,480
I would have I would have coffee all day and night.

746
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,400
I didn't understand the half life of caffeine.

747
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,840
I wonder why I do lay down at three in the morning and I can't sleep.

748
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,160
I realize that's because I had coffee three hours ago and I had way too much coffee than

749
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,840
I then I should have had.

750
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:02,360
But it's it's educating the firefighters on on some of the basics of that, right, that

751
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,080
that we are better when we are rested.

752
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:12,360
And you know, that's that is a mind shift, a cultural shift for many organizations, including

753
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:18,760
the FDNY, because we are so busy going out the door so often that I'd be like, you know

754
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:19,760
what?

755
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:20,760
Why even try and sleep?

756
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,200
I would just stay up when I'd study for a promotional exam.

757
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:28,080
You know, I would I would start studying sometimes at 11 o'clock at night, knowing that I'm going

758
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,320
to have a medical run sometime in the next two hours.

759
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:32,800
So I might as well just stay up.

760
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:33,800
I would finish my 24.

761
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:34,800
I'd go home.

762
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:35,800
I'd be exhausted.

763
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,840
I feel like I'm drunk driving home from from lack of sleep.

764
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:44,400
But, you know, I didn't know any better and educating our young firefighters on that is

765
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,440
something that we tried to try to do at the fire academy by putting it in with other putting

766
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,440
it in with other training.

767
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,880
You mentioned the hands on training and different conferences.

768
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,680
We see we see more of it being introduced far more today than ever before.

769
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:04,680
There's a lot of proactive instructors now out there that when they're going over stuff

770
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,600
at the beginning, they talk about that before they get into the hands on evolution.

771
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,780
And then during a recap, sometimes they're doing that.

772
00:48:11,780 --> 00:48:16,640
We see different conferences that have programs that are on sleep.

773
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:22,340
Everything that the FRCE does just about what we do a program, we incorporate the importance

774
00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:24,960
of sleep into it.

775
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,160
But we know that that's a gap.

776
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Right.

777
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:32,560
And that's why that's one that's one of the things that that we take on with the FRCE

778
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:33,560
is taking the research.

779
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:39,400
There's so much great research out there that, you know, how do we how do we translate that

780
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:44,320
and apply it and change the culture so we know that, hey, you know, I want to be brilliant

781
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,320
at the basics.

782
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:46,320
Right.

783
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,200
We have to be because that's going to keep us alive.

784
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,400
But part of that is incorporating all these blindside issues, sleep and all this other

785
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,840
stuff that's going to make us even more effective, efficient, efficient.

786
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,920
And the byproduct of all of that is safer.

787
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,780
You know, we track and you have to know why we track how many runs that you've had and

788
00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:10,560
how many hours you're into your tour when you get injured.

789
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,840
And, you know, so we know the deeper into a tour, you know, the more injuries, the less

790
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,840
sleep you have, you know, the injuries go up like that.

791
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:20,840
That's not really a surprise.

792
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:21,840
Right.

793
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:27,440
I mean, if you if you haven't slept in 24 hours in my career, it's only been a couple

794
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,680
of times after September 11.

795
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,040
There was some times that we had to work more than 24 hours.

796
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,000
I hated it because I was just I was already tired.

797
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,760
I wanted to go home and then you have to work and you know, your decision making suffers

798
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:40,760
from that.

799
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:46,360
So but it's it's really incorporating all of that into what we're doing.

800
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Podcasts like this, the training at the FLC is doing bringing a greater awareness to our

801
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,040
to our firefighters.

802
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,840
But as you point out, that awareness has to go to the instructors.

803
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:57,840
And I think they are.

804
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,360
I think the conferences that Dean is going to some of the conferences that I get invited

805
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,440
to, they are incorporating that in.

806
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,980
And by having someone like Dina come and speak about all of these different topics shows

807
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:17,320
you that the people that are running these conferences get it because five years ago,

808
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:22,640
Dino wasn't as in demand because this topic was really not talked about.

809
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:29,400
So now, you know, she's in demand, that's why she's stuck in Texas today, you know,

810
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,680
because if she's off, she's traveling and trying to spread the good word.

811
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:33,680
Absolutely.

812
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,960
Well, I want to go back to the kind of research thing just for a moment and then talk about

813
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,960
the paper.

814
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:44,680
So while we're talking about the bodies downstream, we just had a local firefighter, I'll keep

815
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,040
it anonymous, but someone, you know, department close to me that just took their own life,

816
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,200
you know, young firefighter, and I know that particular one, the family supposedly didn't

817
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,960
want it advertised what happened.

818
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:04,480
And so when I see the reported deaths in our profession, knowing especially that the moment

819
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,940
you retire, you cease to become a statistic in this profession, I would argue it's a fraction

820
00:51:09,940 --> 00:51:14,160
of how many people we actually lose in each of these categories, especially suicide and

821
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,480
overdose.

822
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:21,240
So Dina, with you first, talk to me about the research and then have you kind of dive

823
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:22,600
into that a little bit more?

824
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,600
You know, what is that really just the tip of the iceberg?

825
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,120
Because to me, as far as you know, common sense, it seems like it is, but what are you

826
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,600
finding on the data side?

827
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:40,000
Completely, but we have to be careful not to say it's the tip of the iceberg, the rates

828
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:46,720
are much higher for us when the truth of the matter is this is impacting all populations,

829
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:48,200
not just first responders.

830
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,360
You know, we see the statistic a lot that firefighters and other first responders are

831
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,960
three times more likely to die by suicide than in the line of duty.

832
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:01,580
And we use that so alarmingly that, wow, we claim that we have a, you know, an unsafe

833
00:52:01,580 --> 00:52:05,720
profession, but we're dying at our hands three times more.

834
00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:12,080
But the truth of the matter is that's normal for most populations and most career fields.

835
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:16,580
The suicide rate in the United States right now is 14 per hundred thousand.

836
00:52:16,580 --> 00:52:20,640
That is up by 37% since 2000.

837
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,760
The line of duty death rate in the United States is three per hundred thousand.

838
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,860
And if you're a professional firefighter, it's below that.

839
00:52:27,860 --> 00:52:34,880
So it only makes sense that our suicide rates are much higher, but not because we're first

840
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:35,920
responders.

841
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,960
It's because it is truly a public health crisis.

842
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:45,200
And I think we know that's the case for both suicide and, you know, overdoses, substance

843
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:46,200
use disorder.

844
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:51,280
Chief Lieb and I were just at a conference in Florida that specifically surrounded the

845
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,920
overdose crisis and just trying to reduce that by 50%.

846
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,280
Unfortunately, and I think it goes back to community and connection.

847
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:07,960
What we talked about is today we are far more isolated in so many areas and so many, I mean,

848
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,680
aspects of life.

849
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:15,760
And you know, we think the relationships we have on social media are strong and sustaining.

850
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,200
And now we're starting to understand just how damaging those social media relationships

851
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,680
are, especially if you aren't truly a part of a community.

852
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,760
If you can't truly be in environments where you don't have to modulate who you are, where

853
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:33,720
you can be authentic and you can, you know, talk about your struggles far before their

854
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:34,720
crisis.

855
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:37,760
Something I was thinking about a minute ago when we were talking and, you know, talking

856
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:44,360
about upstream and downstream and transitioning is you've done such incredible work and you've

857
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,160
brought so many different aspects to health and wellness.

858
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,120
I mean, you've had several different sleep researchers now.

859
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,180
You've had so many different people talk about their traumas, previous military.

860
00:53:56,180 --> 00:54:01,880
It was really cool to hear that you had like Ryan Muncie on all these different aspects.

861
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:06,880
And yet, despite all of that and what we know, I think a lot of times we still so much our

862
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:16,040
focus on getting individuals in crisis to ask for help when it is truly time to transition

863
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:23,280
away from that and really put such a greater focus on not just sleep, but all the other

864
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:29,280
areas that we're uncovering or we're peeling the onion away that we know are impacting

865
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:30,280
us.

866
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,640
And some of them are controversial.

867
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,840
Frank and I have talked about a few of them.

868
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:41,720
When we talk in Nashville, we're going to talk about upstream.

869
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:46,120
We're going to talk about, you know, improving systems, prevention by design.

870
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,740
And you know, there's three main components that will hit on.

871
00:54:49,740 --> 00:54:52,820
One of them is, of course, pre-planning the crisis.

872
00:54:52,820 --> 00:54:55,280
So now we have this greater awareness.

873
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:56,480
We know it's the tip of the iceberg.

874
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:06,320
We know that, yes, suicide is, you know, not a high probable event, but it is possible.

875
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,440
And we're hearing about it every day.

876
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,200
So with that knowledge and Dr. Craig Bryan has really turned some of the research upside

877
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:18,880
down, whereas two years ago, every single professional was speaking about the relationship

878
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:25,000
between mental health and suicide and that if you fix mental health, you'll reduce suicide

879
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,200
and 90% of suicides are results of mental health.

880
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,920
That's the messaging that's been continuously shared and believed and I've shared it and

881
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,600
it's been cited by me several times.

882
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:43,760
But newer research is out now that is saying the mental health is about 50%.

883
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,920
They're finding that there's almost 50% of suicides from people who had no diagnosis

884
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,760
of mental health disorder at the time of their death.

885
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:56,200
And a lot of it had to do with a sudden crisis, a major loss.

886
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,440
You know, it could be something at job, like you get fired from your job and you take your

887
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,500
life the next day.

888
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:05,520
Is that a mental health disorder or is that stress?

889
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:07,640
Is stress a mental health disorder?

890
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,800
And a lot of people would argue that it's not.

891
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:15,000
But the point of that is understanding that we have to pre-plan our crisis and unfortunately

892
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:21,100
small things, and this is the controversial piece of it, is our easy access to handguns

893
00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:24,180
make suicides much more easier.

894
00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:27,560
So with that knowledge, how do we create barriers between ourselves and handguns?

895
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,560
That's one piece of it.

896
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,600
The other piece of it is pre-planning through creating a crisis card.

897
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:38,520
You know, just knowing, hey, when I find myself in crisis, when I find myself reaching for

898
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:43,360
that handgun, let me list three different people that I can call.

899
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,720
Let me list three pleasurable activities I can engage in.

900
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:48,240
Let me learn a mindfulness activity ahead of this.

901
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:51,940
Let me make sure I have the number of the crisis line written down, 988.

902
00:56:51,940 --> 00:56:55,160
And then lastly, a beautiful piece out of the research that we're looking at is this

903
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,600
concept of tipping points.

904
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,560
And historically, a lot of the discussion that I had and a lot of the research that

905
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:06,240
I had basically said that suicide was absolutely not impulsive.

906
00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:11,600
There was nothing impulsive about suicide, but now some of the more recent research is

907
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:19,960
finding that there are suicides that between the decision to die and death is 10 minutes.

908
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:26,440
And so with that, there's this tipping point where one thing, one negative attitude, one

909
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:33,440
negative look, one dismissal, one rude comment could push somebody towards death.

910
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:38,240
Whereas the opposite is true, a little bit of positivity, one smile, somebody reaching

911
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,400
out, somebody expressing belief could push somebody towards life.

912
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,720
And so we're really looking at that tipping point and trying to understand that for me,

913
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,800
the big responsibility that I try to express now, especially since I'm a battalion chief

914
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:56,300
and I find myself as a more formal leader, I recognize I have more responsibility not

915
00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,320
just for the job, but for the people.

916
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:06,160
And creating that environment where people feel valued, feel like they belong, and hopefully

917
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,000
keeping them away from that tipping point that can push them towards death.

918
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,080
I don't know if that made any sense the way I just expressed those three concepts.

919
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,080
Yeah, no, it did.

920
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:21,320
And I don't think it's controversial, realizing that the access to weapons is part of the

921
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,820
conversation, because that's what's always cited when it comes to law enforcement.

922
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:27,180
Your death is strapped to your hip.

923
00:58:27,180 --> 00:58:29,800
So how do you be cognizant of that?

924
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,740
And I think when I think of the contributing factors now, I don't know why this just popped

925
00:58:34,740 --> 00:58:40,800
into my head, but those kind of Indiana Jones style movies where they've got the metal piece

926
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,120
and it fits perfectly in the stone and then they turn it and all these pieces come together,

927
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:50,580
that is what I've learned over a thousand plus episodes is it's not one thing.

928
00:58:50,580 --> 00:58:56,560
So if you are, the straw is full on the back of the camel, then that one breakup with that

929
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:01,920
girlfriend or that one job could be it, but then the conversely, how many people lose

930
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,480
a job and like, oh well, that job sucked anyway.

931
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:05,480
You know what I mean?

932
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,240
So it's understanding all of these pieces and the unaddressed childhood trauma, the

933
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,080
side effects of drugs.

934
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:17,200
I think a big thing that's not discussed is the impact of alcohol on actually completing

935
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,200
suicide.

936
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,400
And I've always used the kind of tongue in cheek analogy.

937
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,360
There are women that I spent the night with, I woke up the next morning going, what have

938
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:26,360
I done?

939
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:31,640
No disrespect to any of these young ladies, but it was alcohol that blurred my judgment.

940
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,920
So you got someone in crisis and you add in Jim Beam.

941
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,600
Now all of a sudden that kind of hand that's pushing you away that wants you to live has

942
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:39,640
kind of dissolved.

943
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:45,360
So I think this is this nuance conversation that we need to have about suicide because

944
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:51,380
I mean, as I've underlined many times on here, having heard so many stories of crisis,

945
00:59:51,380 --> 00:59:55,940
when someone's brain is miswired, they believe that they are the problem and that their family

946
00:59:55,940 --> 01:00:03,080
will be better off if they're gone, which makes their version of suicide, their truth

947
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:08,200
at that moment, selfless, courageous, and they're probably terrified when they do it

948
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,280
instead of cowardice and all those things that we talk about.

949
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:17,320
So getting the person before that brain becomes miswired is a huge part of the conversation.

950
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:21,560
But if we add shame and guilt to the mental health conversation, you just freaking plunge

951
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,880
the last nail in the coffin.

952
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:25,600
Completely.

953
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:30,960
And I think you just hit on it and Frank mentioned it earlier, the concept of a wicked problem.

954
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:35,640
And I never heard of that before and didn't know what it is, but now I do.

955
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:41,120
And it's important to talk about wicked problems in the sense of suicide.

956
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:46,800
So wicked problem is a problem where there's multiple avenues to the outcome and then there's

957
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:53,160
multiple solutions, but there's never one solution and there's never one pathway to

958
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:54,240
the outcome.

959
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:59,240
So just like you mentioned, for some people adverse childhood experiences impact them.

960
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:01,520
For others, that has nothing to do with it.

961
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,080
They had great childhoods.

962
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:07,960
However, maybe it's that socially prescribed perfectionism and the environment that they're

963
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,640
in and that could be some trauma exposure added to that.

964
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:17,600
But we know suicide is a complex problem and there's never just one algorithm.

965
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,440
There's in fact, tons of researchers were trying to find the algorithm and they've been

966
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,760
looking for the algorithm and there is no algorithm to predict a suicide.

967
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,920
It is not possible today to predict a suicide.

968
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,200
So with that and with understanding that, that's where the idea of understanding, okay,

969
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:38,840
what can we do community wise to just make it harder to die by suicide?

970
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:43,300
And like you just said, and I love what you said, even though I maybe don't, but you wake

971
01:01:43,300 --> 01:01:45,680
up the next morning and you're like, oh my gosh, what did I do?

972
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:46,680
I would never do this again.

973
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:47,680
I regret this.

974
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,840
Well, they found the same for people who attempted suicides and survived.

975
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,120
People who had very lethal suicide attempts, the people who jumped off the Golden Gate

976
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:58,960
Bridge, which less than 3% survived.

977
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,960
But out of that small percentage that survived, nearly all of them said it was an instant

978
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,560
regret.

979
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:10,200
And time and time again, in the research of people who've made near lethal suicide attempts,

980
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,520
that is what told them that no, they never wanted to die.

981
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,400
That death wasn't what they wanted.

982
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:17,760
They wanted to stop their pain.

983
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,040
But the idea that it was an instant regret.

984
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:25,560
So with our knowledge of that, and then in fact, that of those people, 90% went on to

985
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,300
never die by suicide down the road.

986
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:33,980
So if we can create environments that make it harder to die, we can save lives, especially

987
01:02:33,980 --> 01:02:36,920
knowing that the goal is never to die.

988
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:38,400
Yeah, absolutely.

989
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,040
Well, Frank, anything to add on that?

990
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:45,540
And then your perspective as well, being in this profession a lot longer than the two

991
01:02:45,540 --> 01:02:53,040
of us, as far as what the old school perspective was, and then what you're seeing through the

992
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,520
FDNY lens as far as the magnitude of this problem.

993
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:02,840
Well, listen, you're hearing, just listening to Dina, right?

994
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:04,040
That's why I brought her on.

995
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,400
I mean, just let it go.

996
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,200
All the things that she's saying, the wicked problems, right?

997
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:18,640
I was talking to a police officer in St. Petersburg, which is where we were teaching the class

998
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:20,320
that she referred to.

999
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:26,400
And one of the problems, right, if you say you have even remotely a problem where you're

1000
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:32,960
thinking about committing, you're thinking about suicide, that now you're on administrative

1001
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:33,960
duty.

1002
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:38,120
They take away, like your career has been altered significantly.

1003
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,000
So, you talk about a wicked problem, right?

1004
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,600
So we have to end that stigma somehow.

1005
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,080
And I know that's like a cliche.

1006
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:49,480
We say that all the time, but like, it's a wicked problem in doing that.

1007
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:54,120
And it's one of the things that we're hoping to do.

1008
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:58,560
It's why with the FRCE, the First Responder Center for Excellence, Dina mentioned it.

1009
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:06,800
We're having an event in Nashville, March 19th, 20th, and 21st, starting out with an

1010
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:11,280
opening reception at the Country Music Hall of Fame on Wednesday night as an icebreaker

1011
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:16,240
event, followed by an incredible lineup on Thursday and Friday.

1012
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,160
I'll let her speak about that.

1013
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,920
But I want to finally answer one of your questions.

1014
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,840
You keep giving me questions, and then I'm like a politician.

1015
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:29,480
I answer totally different questions.

1016
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,800
And I appreciate you not hammering me on that.

1017
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:44,280
So in the FDNY, our counseling unit does a fantastic job on what they do, but we still

1018
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,120
don't prevent suicides, right?

1019
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:51,040
I mean, we haven't gotten it down to zero, right?

1020
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:56,320
And Dina made the point that we're really a microcosm of society, and there's so many

1021
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:01,560
societal issues as well, not just within our profession.

1022
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:09,280
Some of the other stuff, poor leadership that Dina also talks about, I do a class.

1023
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,400
I have a half-day class that I do on soft skill leadership, which is really how to treat

1024
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:14,720
people.

1025
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:20,360
And when I first started teaching that, and I've been teaching it for a while, I didn't

1026
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,720
have any of this in it.

1027
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,080
And I have totally rewritten it and putting some of this in.

1028
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:30,620
I'm going to be doing this program in the next week at a fire department.

1029
01:05:30,620 --> 01:05:38,360
And I've added some of the new stuff that the FRCE has, some of our new whiteboard videos.

1030
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,800
I've added some of the stuff about poor leadership.

1031
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:48,040
There's so many different things that it's not just the calls, as I think is the name

1032
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:56,520
of Dina's class that she does on this, her keynote and her class, which are both fantastic.

1033
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:00,600
So with the FDNY, one of the things when I was the chief of safety, and I wasn't the

1034
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:08,000
chief of safety for very long, a little over a year, our safety week, the topic that we

1035
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,960
did was suicide awareness.

1036
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:17,920
Because I understand the importance of it, because I had a firefighter that I was very

1037
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,840
good friends with take his own life, and nobody saw it coming.

1038
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:28,720
I didn't see it coming, and if anybody should have saw it coming, it would have been me.

1039
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:33,520
And through that experience and through talking to Dina and talking to Frank Leto, who was

1040
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:39,440
in our counseling unit, now Drew Kane in the FDNY runs it, does a great job.

1041
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,920
I've learned that sometimes we don't see that there aren't signs, right?

1042
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:48,080
But the ways that we can do better is important.

1043
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:53,720
And the reaction that we got from doing our safety week, so the safety command goes out

1044
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:58,320
to the firehouses and gives the presentation to the brothers and sisters, and they go out

1045
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:04,600
to the EMS command, was so overwhelmingly positive.

1046
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:09,200
Because as you mentioned earlier, James, we don't always know.

1047
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,600
Families don't want to know the stigma.

1048
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:17,200
We don't always know when suicide was the cause of death.

1049
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,560
And that makes it a challenge as well, because then people say, well, we don't have a problem,

1050
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,120
because they don't know, right?

1051
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:26,240
You know, the idea of a medical condition or whatever other reason, maybe you never hear

1052
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:27,240
anything.

1053
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,480
And, you know, how do we change that, right?

1054
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:36,320
We have to certainly, you know, the families will, you know, we have to, you know, be respectful

1055
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:37,320
to that.

1056
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:44,500
But we have to change it, and education and knowing when somebody does, you know, is,

1057
01:07:44,500 --> 01:07:46,560
I think is helpful.

1058
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,240
We touched on teaching leadership.

1059
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,760
This is another thing that I've been trying to, you know, call out a little bit more this

1060
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:58,860
year just because when you give X amount of information, like, you know, all three of

1061
01:07:58,860 --> 01:08:04,560
us have on the school, basically, and that there's an acknowledgement of information

1062
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:09,160
and disregarding when there's a recruitment crisis, when they're burying their own, that

1063
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:14,320
is where I start going, okay, well, then the only thing that's left now is courage.

1064
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:19,120
And this is why you have the bugles on your jacket, is this is how you earn your very

1065
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:24,440
large pay scale versus a firefighter, is you're paid to lead, you're paid to problem solve,

1066
01:08:24,440 --> 01:08:29,120
you're paid to find that money for that new shift and speak to your city or county and

1067
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:33,680
say this is how it's going to save us a huge amount of money and reopen fire stations and

1068
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:35,800
put the fourth person back on the rig.

1069
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:37,560
That is your job.

1070
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:42,760
And where I see another elephant in the room as far as mental health is toxic leadership,

1071
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:44,840
you know, organizational betrayal.

1072
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:52,320
So let's expand on that a little bit more, you know, how do we get the good, not just

1073
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:57,040
leaders, not bosses, but good human beings in these positions that will actually have

1074
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:00,920
a fire in their belly to fight for the wellness of their people because we all can name good

1075
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:02,160
leaders.

1076
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:07,760
But as time goes on, and I don't think I'm in an echo chamber, I feel like there's, there's

1077
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:14,120
a larger gap between, you know, as many great leaders that will, you know, basically have

1078
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,360
a knockdown drag out fight to protect their men and women.

1079
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:20,200
And I agree with you.

1080
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:23,680
And I totally went not in an echo chamber, which means there's hope, which means that

1081
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:25,320
we can find a way forward.

1082
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:29,080
You know, leadership matters.

1083
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:32,040
You know, when in command, command, be the boss.

1084
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:36,320
That's why you're put there to lead, you know.

1085
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:38,640
And I used to think leadership didn't matter.

1086
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,800
As a young firefighter, I was like, the firefighters run the firehouse.

1087
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:43,340
And I was largely right.

1088
01:09:43,340 --> 01:09:46,460
But every once in a while, that invisible hand needs to guide.

1089
01:09:46,460 --> 01:09:49,520
But there's times even on a fire ground, right?

1090
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,200
The chiefs can't just sit there and be a spectator at the fire.

1091
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,600
There's times when they have to make decisive actions and decisions.

1092
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:57,520
Sometimes the firefighters won't like that.

1093
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,920
That's okay, because they ultimately are the ones that are responsible for the outcome

1094
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:02,920
of that fire.

1095
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:07,720
And if somebody gets seriously injured or loses their life, you know, people are going

1096
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:11,120
to look to the fire chief and to see what they did.

1097
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,560
What was their strategy to combat that fire?

1098
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:20,400
Were they just a spectator or did they actively partake in the command?

1099
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,600
And that is so important.

1100
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:29,280
And we need to train our leaders in all of these other blindside issues.

1101
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:31,400
That's what I call all these issues.

1102
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:36,000
If we're not forcing a door, if we're not stretching a hose line, right, cancer, PTSD,

1103
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,560
sleep, these are all blindside issues.

1104
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:46,400
Our schedule, hearing loss, there's so many things.

1105
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,960
These are the blindside issues of the fire service.

1106
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:54,040
Our leadership has to be educated on that and has to take action on that.

1107
01:10:54,040 --> 01:11:00,760
And you know, I would hold my firefighters accountable for the policies and procedures.

1108
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,160
Well, like that's a two-way street.

1109
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:08,760
Like our leadership could be held accountable as well to make sure that they're doing what

1110
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:10,120
they need to do.

1111
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,320
And I think that's vitally important, right?

1112
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,220
Don't just do as I say, right?

1113
01:11:16,220 --> 01:11:18,520
Do as I say, but also do as I do.

1114
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,080
Lead by example, but make sure that we're looking at all those things.

1115
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:24,860
But leadership doesn't always know.

1116
01:11:24,860 --> 01:11:27,360
So we have to educate them.

1117
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:34,160
And listen, I've learned a lot listening to podcasts and listening to Dina and reading

1118
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:41,120
her book and all these other things on issues that were more of a blindside for me than

1119
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:43,540
I realized.

1120
01:11:43,540 --> 01:11:48,760
But so the superpower is not knowing what you know and knowing you don't know what you

1121
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:50,840
don't know, right?

1122
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:58,040
And I make it my business to make sure that I'm interested and I'm aware of those topics.

1123
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:03,280
And I think that's the beauty of the event that we're going to have in Nashville is I've

1124
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:06,240
had people say, well, why should I attend that?

1125
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:12,560
My department doesn't have a suicide issue or we're not in mental health crisis.

1126
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:18,320
Because you want to be educated on the issues that may become a problem or issues that you're

1127
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:19,320
not aware of.

1128
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:21,240
So I sit in on classes.

1129
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,960
I try and sit in on classes that I don't know anything about and with brand new instructors.

1130
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:31,320
Like when I go to FDIC, I will pick classes that I have no knowledge on or very little

1131
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:32,320
knowledge on.

1132
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:36,440
And I will purposely pick instructors that I don't know who they are and sit in on a

1133
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:37,440
class.

1134
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:42,920
Because otherwise, I could have a huge blind spot and not even be aware of it.

1135
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,900
So that superpower is not knowing what you don't know.

1136
01:12:45,900 --> 01:12:51,280
So going and hearing from different speakers on topics that you may not be comfortable

1137
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:56,000
talking about, you certainly may not know a lot about, is the power of it.

1138
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,780
That's why you attend these events.

1139
01:12:58,780 --> 01:13:03,900
That's why you go to the icebreaker beforehand and meet the people and talk to the people.

1140
01:13:03,900 --> 01:13:07,680
Because then when you have a question, the beauty of it is when these speakers are there

1141
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:11,920
and the people, they're all willing to share their knowledge and information.

1142
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:17,440
And you get that by attending these types of events.

1143
01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:21,040
So I think I answered the question.

1144
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:22,040
You did.

1145
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,600
Yeah, just to put in, because I know Dini wants to talk as well, but just to reply to

1146
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:31,560
that, there was that, well, it's never happened here mentality in the last place I worked.

1147
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:36,160
And the guy who ended up murdering all those people in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando,

1148
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,240
he went to Disney Springs where I was, that was my station.

1149
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:45,360
That's where we protect and is on camera with a stroller full of weapons.

1150
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,360
And there was too many kind of sheriff's deputies.

1151
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:49,800
It was shift change.

1152
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:54,300
And so they've got him getting back in his car and going up to the club.

1153
01:13:54,300 --> 01:13:56,260
So that was a near miss.

1154
01:13:56,260 --> 01:13:58,480
And they still were like, well, still nothing's happened.

1155
01:13:58,480 --> 01:13:59,480
Let's do nothing.

1156
01:13:59,480 --> 01:14:04,800
And to me, it's like, well, yeah, if you haven't had that happen, learn from a Valde, learn

1157
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:08,360
from Parkland, even though some of the guys responded amazingly in Parkland, certainly

1158
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:12,040
the SRO, for example, did not.

1159
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:16,240
And so do you want to prepare now before it happens?

1160
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:20,360
And it can be an acute event like a shooting or the mental health crisis.

1161
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:24,980
Or do you want to wait until you start burying your people and then go, oh, yeah, maybe we

1162
01:14:24,980 --> 01:14:26,600
should actually change something.

1163
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:32,980
And I think a real leader in the corporate space, for example, let's take cyber threats.

1164
01:14:32,980 --> 01:14:36,740
They pay people a lot of money to come up with every single scenario that someone could

1165
01:14:36,740 --> 01:14:40,600
attack their business and fix it before it happens.

1166
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,400
I think that we're reactive in the fire service by nature.

1167
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:45,000
And that is what we do.

1168
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:49,980
And that somehow gets carried over into the leadership model rather than being proactive

1169
01:14:49,980 --> 01:14:54,080
and saying, all right, well, you know, for example, this work week, this recruitment

1170
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,800
crisis, this is not heading in a good place.

1171
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,760
I don't want to tell my town that we don't have a fire department anymore.

1172
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,440
Maybe we should fix this ahead of time, even though maybe you haven't lost anyone in your

1173
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:05,440
department.

1174
01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:06,440
But I think that's very rare.

1175
01:15:06,440 --> 01:15:08,520
Many of us have lost numerous, numerous people.

1176
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:11,600
And God bless you if you've never, I mean, and hopefully you never do.

1177
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:15,780
But for you to not be prepared, for you to not prepare for the possible, whether it's

1178
01:15:15,780 --> 01:15:19,000
something that can happen on a fire ground or whether it's something that can happen

1179
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,340
to your members, you're negligent in your duties as a leader.

1180
01:15:22,340 --> 01:15:24,820
So I know Dina has a lot to talk about on this topic.

1181
01:15:24,820 --> 01:15:25,900
A lot to say.

1182
01:15:25,900 --> 01:15:27,520
So let me mute here.

1183
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:33,860
Now, I won't tie up too much time, but I appreciate the question because I think it's so important.

1184
01:15:33,860 --> 01:15:38,600
When I first started researching first responders suicide, that was my niche.

1185
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,200
That's what I was working on, is first responders suicide.

1186
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:46,160
And my focus was primarily on individuals and ways to prevent suicide and ways for people

1187
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,460
to recognize when they're struggling and things that they can do.

1188
01:15:49,460 --> 01:15:55,080
But the more I researched it, the more I talked to people, the more I read on the subject,

1189
01:15:55,080 --> 01:16:00,200
the more I started to realize that suicide for first responders had very little to do

1190
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:01,840
with the calls.

1191
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:09,480
Going back to Tribe, he explained in that book that less than 10% of our military cease

1192
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:15,720
combat yet over 50% are claiming disability for PTSD.

1193
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:16,960
So what's going on?

1194
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:24,320
And then another eye opener from that book was from World War II to the Vietnam War,

1195
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:29,160
casualties decreased significantly, but disability increased.

1196
01:16:29,160 --> 01:16:34,840
And then from the Vietnam War to today's war, same thing, casualties decreased significantly,

1197
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:37,440
but disability increased substantially.

1198
01:16:37,440 --> 01:16:44,320
So there's obviously what we've been putting the blame on, the trauma, what we see isn't

1199
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:45,860
quite the answer.

1200
01:16:45,860 --> 01:16:51,040
And so for me, over the years, what I found was most fascinating is I was fortunate enough

1201
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,160
to get out, take classes, hear people speak, get book recommendations.

1202
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:59,280
And the book recommendations that impacted my knowledge today have nothing to do with

1203
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:00,280
fire service.

1204
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,440
And in fact, they're not specifically leadership books.

1205
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:09,280
For example, three or actually four books that are just absolutely instrumental in my

1206
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:17,760
thought process today is Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last, The Culture Code, Legacy, and then

1207
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:20,080
Adam Grant's Think Again.

1208
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:25,120
And all four of these books hit on one big overriding theme and that's psychological

1209
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:26,880
safety.

1210
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,320
And what's so fascinating is when you start to learn about psychological safety and you

1211
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:34,240
really, really get into the science of it and understanding that as humans, we're all

1212
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:40,640
just big organisms and we're constantly sinking homeostasis and we achieve homeostasis when

1213
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:42,380
we feel safe.

1214
01:17:42,380 --> 01:17:46,760
And when we feel safe, we achieve homeostasis and that's when we're able to grow, we're

1215
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:53,200
able to think, we're more resilient, we're able to collaborate, we're able to push harder,

1216
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:55,480
fight harder, do everything that we want.

1217
01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:59,320
However, in order to be safe, you can't be alone.

1218
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:01,200
It happens in community.

1219
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:07,480
And then on top of that, especially within the work environment, we're seeking safety

1220
01:18:07,480 --> 01:18:12,880
greatest from the people we answer to, from our leaders, the people who hold our livelihoods

1221
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:14,640
into our hands.

1222
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:20,320
And so all these books, I know I'm speaking a little bit high level, like untangible,

1223
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,600
but all these things become really simplified.

1224
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:28,040
And what I loved about the culture code is he opened up the book by explaining culture

1225
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:31,920
comes from the Latin word cultus, which means to care.

1226
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:33,680
It's all about caring.

1227
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:38,780
The book Legacy is basically just a book about the New Zealand all blacks and why they're

1228
01:18:38,780 --> 01:18:41,780
such a high performing team.

1229
01:18:41,780 --> 01:18:46,440
And basically, they explained that they don't hire for talent, they hire for character.

1230
01:18:46,440 --> 01:18:48,000
And again, it goes back to caring.

1231
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:52,360
One of the concepts, well, two of the concepts I like, one of them is no dickheads, no dickheads

1232
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:53,360
allowed.

1233
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:54,540
And then the second one is sweep the sheds.

1234
01:18:54,540 --> 01:18:59,800
It doesn't matter if you're the team captain or the newest guy, you sweep the sheds.

1235
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,840
And it's about community building and relationships.

1236
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,080
And so as I continue to read all this stuff and start understanding this stuff, I remember

1237
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,520
I remember the first EFO class I brought up and we talked about psychological safety and

1238
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:14,040
somebody stood up and said, well, you can't do that in the fire service where, you know,

1239
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:16,440
it's autocratic, this and that.

1240
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:17,880
And it was dismissed.

1241
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,180
But then you look at NASA.

1242
01:19:20,180 --> 01:19:24,860
And now looking back to Challenger and Columbia disasters, the thing that was attributed to

1243
01:19:24,860 --> 01:19:28,220
it wasn't just the normalization of deviance.

1244
01:19:28,220 --> 01:19:34,000
It was a persistent lack of psychological safety, the inability to speak up and say,

1245
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:39,320
I don't know, or, hey, I think there's a problem because everybody was in self preservation

1246
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:43,200
and nobody wanted to have their head chopped off for speaking up.

1247
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,640
But just to really simplify it in terms of mental health.

1248
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:51,640
And that's what I loved about the book Leaders Eat Last is Simon Sinek just basically explained

1249
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:56,200
that when you go to work and you're in an environment where you feel like every move

1250
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:59,840
is being watched, if you say the wrong thing, you're going to have your head chopped off.

1251
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:04,480
If you make a mistake, you're going to be scrutinized and remembered long term.

1252
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:10,680
And you have a slow steady drip of cortisol in that environment that is continuous.

1253
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:16,280
And that erodes everything within you that leads to restoration, growth and ability to

1254
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:17,280
recover.

1255
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,720
And we know what that cortisol does.

1256
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:25,960
I liked Simon Sinek when he talked about working with SEAL Team 6 and how they select their

1257
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:32,160
people and he did a graph and there was I think it was like education and operational

1258
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,400
experience and then there was trustworthiness.

1259
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:36,480
And that was what it was.

1260
01:20:36,480 --> 01:20:39,120
It wasn't the best person on paper.

1261
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:40,840
It was the person they could trust the most.

1262
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:41,840
And I think this is an issue.

1263
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:46,240
Like I was just talking to a firefighter friend of mine who was about to be the chief of a

1264
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:51,560
Florida fire department and he had the audacity to have a stroke and was completely disregarded

1265
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:54,200
by, discarded, excuse me, by his department.

1266
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,840
And imagine mentally what that did to him.

1267
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:58,040
He loved his department.

1268
01:20:58,040 --> 01:20:59,360
He was an incredible firefighter.

1269
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:05,520
He was literally penciled in to be the next chief and then everything was just cut from

1270
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:06,520
under him.

1271
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:08,760
And so this is what I hear over and over again.

1272
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:14,440
Police officers that were shot wearing their uniform on duty and then discarded.

1273
01:21:14,440 --> 01:21:19,640
And so this lack of forging community and again fighting for your people and doing the

1274
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:22,680
right thing and I can name many leaders who do.

1275
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:25,440
There are some great ones out there that have been on the show.

1276
01:21:25,440 --> 01:21:27,640
But the impact that that has.

1277
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,120
We are a tribal species as Sebastian talks about.

1278
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:37,440
When we wear the FDNY patch or Anaheim or North Carolina, wherever it is, you have basically

1279
01:21:37,440 --> 01:21:42,400
said I will die for that man or woman to the left or right of me and for the people that

1280
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,040
we serve if it comes to it.

1281
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:50,600
And so then to have that tribe turn their back on you, if you look at it anthropomol,

1282
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:57,420
look at it in old times, I can't say that word, the anthropology of it, that meant death.

1283
01:21:57,420 --> 01:22:02,080
If we were in a primitive tribe and we were ostracized, we were left out and we were probably

1284
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:04,680
not going to be able to catch anything to eat and we'd starve to death or freeze to

1285
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:06,200
death or whatever it was.

1286
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,280
That's still in our DNA as well.

1287
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:14,280
So when we give ourselves to a tribe, that tribe owes it to us to take care of us.

1288
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:20,040
And if you are that toxic leader, I don't think people realize the immense detrimental

1289
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:26,760
effect that has when you turn your back or you betray.

1290
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:27,760
That's the word I'm looking for.

1291
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,800
You betray the very people who have said they'll serve you.

1292
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,160
No, completely.

1293
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:38,720
And I've known my whole career when you enter the fire service from day one, they want to

1294
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:40,160
know if they can trust you.

1295
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:44,160
And now as I've progressed, we hire new people and we give them these little tests to see

1296
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:45,960
if we can trust them.

1297
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:50,440
We look to see if they catch something or if they miss something cleaning and we let

1298
01:22:50,440 --> 01:22:52,440
them know you have to earn our trust.

1299
01:22:52,440 --> 01:22:57,320
And what was really fascinating for me as I've been just getting just so immersed in

1300
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:02,120
the research revolving leadership and psychological safety and creating environments where people

1301
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:09,980
thrive is that if you want to gain trust and you want an organization where trust exists,

1302
01:23:09,980 --> 01:23:11,920
it doesn't start with a new person.

1303
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:13,880
It starts at the top.

1304
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:18,960
And everything that I've learned and everything that we want people to model, Chief DeGrasse

1305
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:24,800
in 2018 when he keynoted at FDIC, that was really like for me, it was earth shattering

1306
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:30,380
because he basically said, leaders have to model the behaviors we expect from our people.

1307
01:23:30,380 --> 01:23:35,360
If we want our people to say, I need help, it starts with us admitting that we might

1308
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:37,520
need help or admitting that at some point we needed help.

1309
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:38,840
It starts with the leaders.

1310
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,120
And from that point forward, that wasn't just mental health.

1311
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:45,760
Dan Shaw talks about AARs right at a tailboard debriefing.

1312
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:51,600
And he says, if it doesn't start with the IC saying what they missed, frankly he said

1313
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:57,200
once, what they wish they had seen, the decision they would have made if they would have known

1314
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:58,200
this.

1315
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:02,360
If they don't start with the mistakes they made and then talk about the good, then you

1316
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,960
won't ever get the people to do the same thing.

1317
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:09,920
And how else do we learn and grow than being able to admit, hey, you know what, this is

1318
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,960
something that I wish I would have completed that 360 because I would have saw that we

1319
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:14,960
had a basement.

1320
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:16,920
And because I didn't do that, I missed it.

1321
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:22,080
And I let you guys operate above a fire and could have ended your lives.

1322
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:23,640
That's a mistake I made and I'll never make it again.

1323
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:25,680
I will always do a 360.

1324
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:29,000
And just by being able to admit that mistake, you've now created a mental model for everybody

1325
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,000
on scene.

1326
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:35,200
But again, I'm so glad you brought the leadership because every positive thing that we want

1327
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:39,480
out of this service of ours, it has to start with our leadership.

1328
01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:42,480
Our leadership has to create environments where people thrive.

1329
01:24:42,480 --> 01:24:45,160
And it's beautiful now that we know just the value of caring.

1330
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:47,120
It's okay to care about our people.

1331
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:53,360
Brene Brown in one of her books talks about how in 1943, the original Air Force manual

1332
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:57,520
had all these expressions of love and caring.

1333
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:03,820
However, today leadership manuals are so sterilized that they don't mention caring and loving.

1334
01:25:03,820 --> 01:25:07,140
You almost have to convince leaders it's okay to love your people.

1335
01:25:07,140 --> 01:25:08,640
That's not going to have you in HR.

1336
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:10,400
You can actually care about your people.

1337
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:14,480
And so now we're kind of like moving back again, just like peer support, we're moving

1338
01:25:14,480 --> 01:25:17,360
back to what we've always naturally done.

1339
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:21,960
And again, it just starts at leaders being able to model that and demonstrate it so that

1340
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:23,760
others know it's okay.

1341
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:25,760
Sorry, that was a soapbox.

1342
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:27,880
You're in the home and soapbox right now.

1343
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:28,880
So Frank, what about you?

1344
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,600
Anything to add to that?

1345
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:40,800
Yeah, I think it's show your people you love them and care for them by having standards

1346
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:42,520
and holding them accountable.

1347
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:48,160
And it's, as Dina said, it's not going to get you in HR.

1348
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:53,080
There's different types of love.

1349
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:57,640
But it's really about caring for your people and doing the right thing by them.

1350
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:01,080
And the golden rule.

1351
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:05,160
Caring people how you want to be treated.

1352
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:10,200
When it comes to some of the programs with the FRCE, we have some online programs, a

1353
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:11,760
stress first aid that will help.

1354
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:17,480
We're working on some other programs that Dina is helping make.

1355
01:26:17,480 --> 01:26:19,000
And we're going to actually roll them out.

1356
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:23,800
The first module is going to be rolled out in Nashville.

1357
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,920
And we hope to create a bunch of modules.

1358
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:29,240
And these are all on the FRCE's website.

1359
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:31,360
And we have online training.

1360
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:32,360
It's no cost.

1361
01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:37,240
And so if you're listening to this before March, show up in Nashville.

1362
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:43,080
If you listen to this after March, show up online and do the online training.

1363
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:48,840
But I would like Dina to speak about some of the because she handpicked several of the

1364
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:50,040
people that are going to be speaking there.

1365
01:26:50,040 --> 01:26:55,640
And I know several of them have appeared on your podcast as well.

1366
01:26:55,640 --> 01:27:00,280
So I'd like to have Dina speak about some of those instructors.

1367
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:02,400
I know she wants to do that.

1368
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:03,400
So that would be good.

1369
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:04,400
Please.

1370
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:05,400
No, awesome.

1371
01:27:05,400 --> 01:27:06,400
Thank you.

1372
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:11,640
And yeah, I was just smiling because it just dawned on me that I think every single person

1373
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:16,160
that's presenting has been on your podcast, almost every single person.

1374
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:19,800
And so there's been two really cool things that have happened since the last time I was

1375
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:24,000
on with you, James, is you and I have become really good friends.

1376
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:29,160
And I fed you a lot of guests that you brought on, which has always been so cool to listen

1377
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:32,040
to the podcast and be like, hey, I connected them.

1378
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:39,000
And then Chief Lead kind of gave me he empowered me to help create the agenda for this Nashville

1379
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:40,520
Symposium.

1380
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:47,440
And basically what I did was I pulled every person who is rethinking mental health and

1381
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:53,600
suicide because one of the things that I realized was the main problem was a lot of the people

1382
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:59,840
who first got involved with first responder mental health, they found the thing that they

1383
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:03,040
were passionate about and they didn't rethink.

1384
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:06,960
And what we've learned consistently over and over again is that we haven't always been

1385
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:08,560
doing the right thing.

1386
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:12,740
And it's OK to say, you know what, I said we should do this, but now we shouldn't.

1387
01:28:12,740 --> 01:28:17,040
So I look for, OK, who are the people who are brave enough to stand on this stage and

1388
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:22,360
say, when I said this, I was wrong or this article I wrote was completely wrong?

1389
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:23,880
Because that's what's happening today.

1390
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:25,720
The research is just boom, boom, boom.

1391
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,760
And we're realizing everything's changing.

1392
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:33,920
So all the people whose work I've been reading and researching who have been on your episodes,

1393
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:35,400
these are the people that I reached out to.

1394
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:36,400
And I was so fortunate.

1395
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,720
I think everybody that I reached out to is available, which is super cool.

1396
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:44,440
The problem was Chief Lead later informed me we only had a day and a half.

1397
01:28:44,440 --> 01:28:47,620
So I couldn't bring everybody that I wanted to bring, which is sad.

1398
01:28:47,620 --> 01:28:52,040
But I think there'll be future opportunities and it's only going to get better.

1399
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:58,600
So we're going to open up the keynote with Dr. Thomas Joyner, who, for me, when I first

1400
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:02,960
started researching this subject, every bit of fire service research came from his lab

1401
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:04,000
at FSU.

1402
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:08,200
He took on this and did tremendous work for us.

1403
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:11,000
And his father died by suicide.

1404
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:13,320
So the beauty of him is he's researching it.

1405
01:29:13,320 --> 01:29:14,760
He's working with researchers.

1406
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:17,600
But he also has this personal story that he shares.

1407
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:23,700
And one of the things that I always appreciated was he talked about when his dad died by suicide,

1408
01:29:23,700 --> 01:29:29,060
how people treated him and how he realized that if his dad would have died by cancer,

1409
01:29:29,060 --> 01:29:31,340
people would have bought casseroles and showed support.

1410
01:29:31,340 --> 01:29:36,680
But when his dad died by suicide, people treated them like they had a disease that was contagious.

1411
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,740
And the lack of compassion truly impacted him negatively.

1412
01:29:39,740 --> 01:29:44,800
So he's been committed since 2005 to bringing compassion to suicide.

1413
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:50,800
And he always says, he's not looking to find individuals and prevent suicides.

1414
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:54,120
He's looking to stop suicide.

1415
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:57,420
Suicide is the enemy, not the people who die by suicide.

1416
01:29:57,420 --> 01:29:59,240
So he'll be that opening keynote on day one.

1417
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,880
On day two, Dr. Sally Spencer Thomas, she's going to be keynoting.

1418
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:05,680
And you've had her on and she's amazing.

1419
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:06,680
She's brilliant.

1420
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,600
I first heard her, I think the three of us sat down with her at the Rosecrans Florian

1421
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:10,960
Symposium.

1422
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,960
And that keynote she did there just inspired me.

1423
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:17,480
After that, she shared some of her slides with me with all the notes and a lot of people

1424
01:30:17,480 --> 01:30:18,480
don't do that.

1425
01:30:18,480 --> 01:30:22,200
So that told me she's here for the right reasons.

1426
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:26,160
She lost her brother to suicide, but she also speaks so compassionately.

1427
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,840
And one of the things she does is she gives you tools that you can take tomorrow and start

1428
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:30,840
using.

1429
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:33,780
So her keynote is going to be moving away from awareness to action.

1430
01:30:33,780 --> 01:30:36,880
So I'm absolutely excited about her keynote.

1431
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,300
And then you've had Brandon Drymon on.

1432
01:30:39,300 --> 01:30:42,280
He's going to talk about, okay, you've had a suicide, what's next?

1433
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:44,680
I think that's an area that we're really struggling.

1434
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:49,320
The messaging that we're delivering after a suicide isn't always consistent and isn't

1435
01:30:49,320 --> 01:30:50,320
always helpful.

1436
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:53,120
Chief Dan DeGrasse is going to be on.

1437
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:57,580
Substance use disorders and addictions have been something that's that are really personal

1438
01:30:57,580 --> 01:30:58,840
for him.

1439
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:04,480
And one of the things that we know is how difficult it is when you see somebody struggling

1440
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:09,880
with substance use disorder or you see somebody struggling in certain areas and you know that

1441
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:10,880
they need help.

1442
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:14,280
And you know the things that they can do to help them, but they're unwilling to do those

1443
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:15,280
things.

1444
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:18,860
And for family members and loved ones, it's so difficult.

1445
01:31:18,860 --> 01:31:20,880
So he has a newer class.

1446
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:23,000
It's called the art of intervention.

1447
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:25,640
And I'm really excited about that.

1448
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:30,180
And then Dr. Sarah Jenke and Captain Frank Lito are going to team up and they're going

1449
01:31:30,180 --> 01:31:32,600
to talk about basically words matter.

1450
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:38,080
And it'll go back to that tipping point and safe communication and how we're communicating

1451
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:39,080
about the problem.

1452
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:43,720
Dr. Kelly O'Dare, the Second Alarm Project out of your state.

1453
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:48,240
And she, she has really emerged to become just one of my heroes.

1454
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:54,480
When you do this work and you engage with people who have PhDs or certifications, I

1455
01:31:54,480 --> 01:32:01,000
know for me a lot of times it's been difficult because academic people will look at me and

1456
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:02,860
be like, well, who are you?

1457
01:32:02,860 --> 01:32:04,760
People need to be listening to me because I'm academic.

1458
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:10,160
But from day one, Kelly has always been one of the most humble, gracious people who, despite

1459
01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:15,600
her expertise and her level of education and the company she runs, she'd never tell you

1460
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:16,600
that to your face.

1461
01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:20,420
When you talk to her, she looks at you as if you are the expert.

1462
01:32:20,420 --> 01:32:24,560
She always just lifts people up, but she's absolutely brilliant.

1463
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:27,520
And she's going to speak on something that I think is so incredibly important.

1464
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:31,180
We've talked so much about the value of cultural competency.

1465
01:32:31,180 --> 01:32:35,160
And I know on your show, you've brought it up a lot, Dustin Hawkins in his episode, he

1466
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:40,240
talked about reaching EAP and the girl on the other end started crying.

1467
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:44,120
He's asking for help and the person he's talking to is crying.

1468
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:50,040
So we've done a really good job with cultural competency, with getting clinicians, training

1469
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:54,040
them on our work, and then ensuring first responders are reaching out to culturally

1470
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:55,520
competent clinicians.

1471
01:32:55,520 --> 01:33:00,800
However, now what we're realizing is in your area, you might have three culturally competent

1472
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:01,800
clinicians.

1473
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:04,280
They're not going to be able to help every first responder.

1474
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:08,800
But then another piece of the puzzle that we know is the relationship between the individual

1475
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:14,380
and the clinician is far more important than the clinician's ability to do their job.

1476
01:33:14,380 --> 01:33:18,440
So Kelly's going to talk about cultural competency, but she's also going to talk about moving

1477
01:33:18,440 --> 01:33:24,380
beyond it to that relationship and ways that we can address not having enough culturally

1478
01:33:24,380 --> 01:33:26,160
competent clinicians.

1479
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:28,200
So that's absolutely exciting.

1480
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:33,040
And then we'll be closing out day one with Ryan Muncie.

1481
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:35,320
And I'm super excited about him.

1482
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:36,320
He's a coach.

1483
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:37,320
He's not in the fire service.

1484
01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:39,240
He's not a research nerd.

1485
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:44,320
But if you've read his book, you understand how much he has learned about psychological

1486
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:45,320
safety.

1487
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:47,520
And he talks about polyvagal theory.

1488
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:52,720
We talked about earlier in the podcast, the value of rest and recovery for optimizing

1489
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:53,720
performance.

1490
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:59,440
And so he talks about how we optimize performance through extending rest and recovery and then

1491
01:33:59,440 --> 01:34:01,200
some of the science behind that.

1492
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:02,720
So we're going to let him close.

1493
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:06,840
And we basically, you know, we said four o'clock to when you're done.

1494
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:09,920
So I'm super thrilled about that.

1495
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:14,920
And then day two, Chief Lieb and I will close where we'll talk about systems thinking and

1496
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:18,800
maybe rethinking and being able to admit, you know, knowing what you don't know.

1497
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:23,640
And then Frank, do you want to hit on some of the additional speakers like Iowa and whatnot?

1498
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:28,920
Well, our new partnership with thank you, Dina, for that.

1499
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:32,720
The new partnership with the University of Iowa and University of Pittsburgh.

1500
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,640
And then we'll be rolling out without giving away too many details.

1501
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,760
We'll be rolling out our new online modules.

1502
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:41,760
So sign up.

1503
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:47,800
Maybe we could put those in the go to the FRCE website and you'll see a link to that

1504
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:50,720
and also a link to our online online training.

1505
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:54,360
And I also sent those to James, if you're able to put those in the show notes.

1506
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:55,360
Absolutely.

1507
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:57,360
It's yeah, it'll be good.

1508
01:34:57,360 --> 01:34:58,840
It'll be a good day.

1509
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:00,520
I tell you what.

1510
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:05,800
So not only the quantity of your guests, but the quality of them to have so many nodes

1511
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:10,440
from what we're looking to do with our symposium.

1512
01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:14,720
You know, how many of these are direct connections back to you?

1513
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:16,440
And it's it's pretty cool.

1514
01:35:16,440 --> 01:35:17,880
I didn't realize it was all of them.

1515
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:19,480
I knew it was a lot of them.

1516
01:35:19,480 --> 01:35:24,960
But you know, that tells me I have a couple of episodes, a couple more episodes I need

1517
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:29,760
to to listen to, because I've listened to several of them of the speakers that I know

1518
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:31,400
were on here, but I didn't listen.

1519
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:32,520
I didn't listen to all of them.

1520
01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:33,720
So I have some work to do now.

1521
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,440
Well, I think Dr. Joyner, I think we went back and forth and I've got a wrist circle

1522
01:35:37,440 --> 01:35:39,120
around with him, I think next month.

1523
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,960
And then Kelly, I just met her and it was funny because she seemed really quiet and

1524
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,160
I was talking to her husband, but she lost her voice.

1525
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:47,000
That's why she wasn't saying anything.

1526
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:50,160
So we spoke over the phone not too long ago.

1527
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:53,540
She is part of the research they're doing on Gainesville fire rescue.

1528
01:35:53,540 --> 01:35:57,520
So they've done baseline testing pre 2472.

1529
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:01,160
And now they're going to be doing they're still kind of working through staffing, but

1530
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:03,000
they'll be fully staffed in April.

1531
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:04,360
So they're actually going to come on.

1532
01:36:04,360 --> 01:36:07,840
She's going to come on talk about second alarm, but also about that research.

1533
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:12,620
So I think it will be the first time anyone's heard any data for you people that love that

1534
01:36:12,620 --> 01:36:17,280
word on the before and after, even though of course we fucking know what's going to

1535
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:18,280
happen, it's going to be better.

1536
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:19,280
Let's be honest.

1537
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:23,480
But if you like statistics, we'll have it for you.

1538
01:36:23,480 --> 01:36:25,080
So yeah, so I can't wait to talk to her.

1539
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:30,720
And then that way we can appease some of the squeaky wheels out there and remove their

1540
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:33,080
final excuse of inertia.

1541
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:34,600
All right.

1542
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:38,040
I can't wait.

1543
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:39,880
That's going to be a really good episode.

1544
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,800
She like I said, she's brilliant in so many aspects.

1545
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:43,800
Absolutely.

1546
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:46,680
Well, yeah, I look forward to hearing that episode for sure.

1547
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:48,200
Well, Dean, I want to go to your book.

1548
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:51,680
But just before we do this, keep Frank on a little bit longer.

1549
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:59,140
When people hear the center of excellence, they're thinking about the IFF wellness facility

1550
01:36:59,140 --> 01:37:04,340
in the very northeast corner of the country, which I think is great that we have a facility.

1551
01:37:04,340 --> 01:37:08,900
I think maybe there's a potential for more than one in the profession that has a million

1552
01:37:08,900 --> 01:37:09,900
firefighters.

1553
01:37:09,900 --> 01:37:11,760
So that's just my thought on that.

1554
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:14,020
But we're moving forward.

1555
01:37:14,020 --> 01:37:20,240
The first responder center for excellence is who you guys are working with.

1556
01:37:20,240 --> 01:37:23,880
So let's kind of explain to everyone listening the difference between the two.

1557
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:30,620
They coexist, of course, but so that they understand the training and the resources

1558
01:37:30,620 --> 01:37:35,320
that you're offering versus the one they're probably most familiar with.

1559
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:36,320
Yeah.

1560
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:38,840
Thank you for pointing out the difference.

1561
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:44,560
So I look at the first responder center for excellence, which is firstrespondencecenter.org.

1562
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:49,280
Our mission is to put the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation out of business.

1563
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:53,280
They honor our fallen members and they do a fantastic job.

1564
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:58,320
They get to meet your family after you die in the line of duty.

1565
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:07,020
And I joke around with the CEO, Victor Stagnaro and Gary Kersbaum, the two guys at the top

1566
01:38:07,020 --> 01:38:10,480
of their organization that they know I say that, right?

1567
01:38:10,480 --> 01:38:12,760
Our job is to put them out of business.

1568
01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:17,100
And that's through education, research, being involved.

1569
01:38:17,100 --> 01:38:20,160
We are the connection to the researchers.

1570
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,360
And by offering these programs, oftentimes they're free.

1571
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:28,680
Other times, you know, an in-person training, we have different ways that you could have

1572
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,880
us come in and do training.

1573
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:34,920
And that's all available on our website.

1574
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:40,320
But it's about preventing these preventable deaths, right?

1575
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:45,160
And there's whether it's cardiac, whether it's cancer, whether it's suicide, whether

1576
01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:47,360
it's PTSD, all these different things.

1577
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,400
Like I mentioned earlier, the blindside issues.

1578
01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:51,760
And that's what we're here for.

1579
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:55,120
That's why I took this position, because this matters to me.

1580
01:38:55,120 --> 01:39:01,320
And I think, you know, listen, I love talking tactics and strategy as much as the next person.

1581
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:04,320
And I can talk about that all day long.

1582
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:09,560
But these are the issues that are really, really, really, really impacting our brothers

1583
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:11,040
and sisters.

1584
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:15,640
And we can really move the needle far in these issues.

1585
01:39:15,640 --> 01:39:16,640
And but you know what?

1586
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:18,280
You want to talk about ventilation-limited fires?

1587
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:20,400
You want to talk about fires in strip malls?

1588
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:23,040
You want to talk about fires in high-rise?

1589
01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:24,040
I'm all in.

1590
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:25,040
I'll talk about it.

1591
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:26,040
You want to talk about leadership?

1592
01:39:26,040 --> 01:39:27,040
I'm all in.

1593
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:31,840
But where we make the greatest impact right now is talking about these issues, which is

1594
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:34,400
why I'm passionate building the team.

1595
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:42,360
And as I said, have Dina and Zamzow and Tim Graves from running some of our cancer programs

1596
01:39:42,360 --> 01:39:49,040
and all the other people that we have doing stuff for us as we build our team of teams.

1597
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:53,320
While we're on the physical health for a moment, because obviously, firstly, there's a complete

1598
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:55,560
correlation between physical health and mental health.

1599
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,120
We know that.

1600
01:39:57,120 --> 01:40:04,800
One of the real, I guess, jarring things that's become apparent recently is when I speak to

1601
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:11,160
the Navy SEALs, the SAS, the power rescue guys, the ocean lifeguards, especially the

1602
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:17,680
military side, their whole environment is designed for them to perform at the optimal

1603
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:19,120
level.

1604
01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:23,120
When I look at the strength and conditioning nutrition conversations in the fire service,

1605
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:28,720
and this may not be the case in FDNY, but certainly most of the country, it's, well,

1606
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:30,520
let's just get them moving a little bit.

1607
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:33,080
Let's try and teach them to not have so many sodas.

1608
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:38,800
And we are so far from forging human performance that it's terrifying.

1609
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:44,160
Because for example, that same Disney station that I used to work at, the closest building

1610
01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:47,640
to me was a 28-story hotel.

1611
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:52,480
So if I had to do a high-rise trip with 100 pounds of gear on my back, I'm climbing 28

1612
01:40:52,480 --> 01:40:55,520
floors before I even go to work.

1613
01:40:55,520 --> 01:41:01,200
So this isn't a profession where it's okay to be completely deconditioned.

1614
01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:05,300
And then in my opinion, you shouldn't have the response of, oh, you're trying to take

1615
01:41:05,300 --> 01:41:12,320
my job when you put in the demand for fitness and strength conditioning in this profession.

1616
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:17,600
Now, to me, it's a win-win because that obviously forges longevity and a healthy retirement

1617
01:41:17,600 --> 01:41:18,600
as well.

1618
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:24,080
But what is your perspective knowing the impact of obesity and hypertension and all these

1619
01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:29,100
things on the other line of duty deaths and having been in charge of the training division

1620
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:35,080
in the FDNY where when we see the videos, there's a lot of very, very fit, conditioned

1621
01:41:35,080 --> 01:41:37,920
young men and women at the rock.

1622
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:43,480
On that slipping bar, that slipping standard of fitness in a profession that demands a

1623
01:41:43,480 --> 01:41:49,720
high-level athleticism where lives truly are at stake.

1624
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:55,120
Yeah, and that's a great question and I appreciate that.

1625
01:41:55,120 --> 01:42:00,520
So we know like for our new pro-bees, our new firefighters, our recruits, we know that

1626
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:03,080
their fitness score, we give them a fitness score when they start.

1627
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:07,720
That is the greatest predictor of whether they'll pass or fail pro-bees school.

1628
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:10,600
More than anything else, that is the number one indicator.

1629
01:42:10,600 --> 01:42:15,760
So we offer all different classes for them to come in to teach them about fitness months

1630
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:17,640
before they start.

1631
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:19,680
Some of them take us up on it, some of them don't.

1632
01:42:19,680 --> 01:42:25,640
It's about starting them off with a career-long educational process of learning physical fitness,

1633
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:34,700
nutrition, all of these different things and implementing them and putting them into our,

1634
01:42:34,700 --> 01:42:39,880
not only with our recruits, but also when people come to the fire academy, they can

1635
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:45,440
stop by our fitness unit, they can give them tips.

1636
01:42:45,440 --> 01:42:52,320
If you get out of shape for some reason, the FDNY will put you on light duty, modified

1637
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:56,320
duty and you'll be assigned to the fitness unit and they'll instruct you and help you

1638
01:42:56,320 --> 01:42:59,280
get back into shape.

1639
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:03,600
And we saw that with their first Respondent Center for Excellence and part of a program

1640
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:09,440
we just recently concluded with Skidmore College and part of the fresh initiative that they

1641
01:43:09,440 --> 01:43:15,960
had, we have a 40-day recruit program that's now offered for free on the First Respondent

1642
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:18,480
Center for Excellence online program.

1643
01:43:18,480 --> 01:43:24,400
And we only rolled that out in late December and I already know fire chiefs that have assigned

1644
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:27,400
that to the recruits that are coming in.

1645
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:31,560
And I know other people that have used it as a New Year's resolution to get in better

1646
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:32,560
shape.

1647
01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:34,900
They might be mid-career and they say, you know what, I want to do better.

1648
01:43:34,900 --> 01:43:36,100
So you're 100% right.

1649
01:43:36,100 --> 01:43:44,200
We have to focus and make sure because the number one and one A, one and two, right,

1650
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:49,280
of line of duty deaths in the fire service are cardiac and cancer.

1651
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:52,760
And those are preventable.

1652
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:54,440
So many of those are preventable.

1653
01:43:54,440 --> 01:43:57,880
And we need to focus our efforts there.

1654
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:02,080
And that is one of the programs that we have available now.

1655
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:03,720
Again, it's no cost.

1656
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:09,560
Sign up for it and take the 40-day challenge and do the fitness class.

1657
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:14,600
Aaron Zamzao is the host on that.

1658
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:17,320
And if you don't know, I'm sure everybody knows Aaron.

1659
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:21,840
It seems like nowadays he's on the most recent cover of Crackle Magazine.

1660
01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:24,560
If you don't, take a look at that.

1661
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:29,020
But yeah, it's a really good program and 40 days.

1662
01:44:29,020 --> 01:44:30,020
Take the challenge.

1663
01:44:30,020 --> 01:44:36,040
But assign it to your recruits that are coming on and start them off with their day one with

1664
01:44:36,040 --> 01:44:39,960
the fitness and nutrition information that they should have.

1665
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:40,960
Absolutely.

1666
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:41,960
All right.

1667
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:43,460
Well, Dina, let's go to you.

1668
01:44:43,460 --> 01:44:45,000
I want to get the title right.

1669
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:46,000
Hope out of the darkness.

1670
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,200
Because as you mentioned on the podcast I heard recently, there are a lot of play and

1671
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:54,720
words between darkness and light and the whole mental health first responder book collection.

1672
01:44:54,720 --> 01:44:59,160
So talk to me about what made you write the book and then give people an overview of what

1673
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:02,000
they can find.

1674
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:03,000
Thank you.

1675
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:04,000
And thanks for the opportunity.

1676
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:07,840
So I think you might appreciate this.

1677
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:14,840
You had Josh Matts on years ago and his story in his book changed my life, changed my perspective.

1678
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:20,120
I will read that book once a year for the rest of my life to go back to that.

1679
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:27,280
But based on his book, The Beauty of a Darker Soul, the original title was Finding Light

1680
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:29,640
in the Darkness.

1681
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:30,640
And it was based on that.

1682
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:33,660
But when I went online, there were already a lot of books with that title.

1683
01:45:33,660 --> 01:45:36,580
So I didn't want to have a similar title.

1684
01:45:36,580 --> 01:45:39,840
So Hope out of Darkness became the title.

1685
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:46,580
And I'm very happy with that because what we know is hope is an antidote to suicide.

1686
01:45:46,580 --> 01:45:53,760
But the beauty of hope is hope isn't solving every problem and achieving your best life

1687
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:55,500
at the top.

1688
01:45:55,500 --> 01:45:58,280
Hope is just taking one step forward.

1689
01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:05,720
And the beauty of that is when you understand the people who survive the worst disasters

1690
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:09,360
are the people who can just put one foot in front of the other, small steps.

1691
01:46:09,360 --> 01:46:13,240
And it's the same thing for mental wellness and mental health.

1692
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:17,020
It's not about fixing every single problem today.

1693
01:46:17,020 --> 01:46:18,960
It's about taking a step forward.

1694
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:23,680
And even back to what you all were just talking about with fitness, I think we know the people

1695
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:28,360
who lose 40 pounds in a month a year later gain it all back.

1696
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:33,760
But when you make long term changes one foot in front of the other, that's sustainable

1697
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:34,760
change.

1698
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:41,040
So hope and there's actually a whole chapter about hope in here and how you develop hope

1699
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:44,240
because it's a cognitive process.

1700
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:50,880
Hope comes from having belief and having persistence and just taking those steps.

1701
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:51,960
So that's the title of the book.

1702
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:54,080
It's broken down into three parts.

1703
01:46:54,080 --> 01:46:59,640
And so one of the main reasons I wanted to write this book was we started teaching our

1704
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:05,240
peer support class and I started becoming more known in terms of peer support and a

1705
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:10,640
lot of other people were reaching out basically wanting me to tell them how to peer support.

1706
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:13,740
But the problem with that is it's so complex.

1707
01:47:13,740 --> 01:47:18,120
And like we mentioned earlier, it's not about teaching people the right answers and how

1708
01:47:18,120 --> 01:47:19,560
to fix people.

1709
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:27,680
It's truly about being there for others, knowing how to sit in the dark with somebody else,

1710
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:34,440
knowing how to have empathy and maybe express your understanding of their pain and not just

1711
01:47:34,440 --> 01:47:35,760
try to take their pain away.

1712
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:40,240
So peer support is just far too complex for me to reply to an email and tell somebody

1713
01:47:40,240 --> 01:47:41,780
how to create peer support.

1714
01:47:41,780 --> 01:47:45,840
So I got really fatigued because the problem was when somebody reaches out, they generally

1715
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:51,040
reach out after they've had somebody die by suicide or after they face some big crisis.

1716
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:53,040
They don't reach out when everything's going great.

1717
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:55,680
Nobody cares about this until they have to care about this.

1718
01:47:55,680 --> 01:47:58,740
And I shouldn't say that way because there are a lot of people who care, but the people

1719
01:47:58,740 --> 01:48:03,760
that were reaching out to me, it always seemed like it was, we just had a suicide and we

1720
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:04,760
have to fix this right now.

1721
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:08,360
I need you to send me everything you know so I can fix everything.

1722
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:13,160
So I got really fatigued because I couldn't compassionately tell them no.

1723
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:17,000
Because I was constantly trying to share all that I could and I said, man, if I could just

1724
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:21,640
put this all in a book and when people reach out, just give them the link to my book.

1725
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:23,440
So that was the initial goal.

1726
01:48:23,440 --> 01:48:30,240
And I also knew from the articles, I started writing articles in 2016 and for me, I never

1727
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:32,600
felt like I was a very good speaker.

1728
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:37,960
I never felt like I could express my thoughts well verbally, but I knew that I could put

1729
01:48:37,960 --> 01:48:39,000
them down to paper.

1730
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:43,840
So I really loved being able to put something down to paper and put it out there and help

1731
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:44,840
other people.

1732
01:48:44,840 --> 01:48:50,160
So I started writing articles in 2016 and out of the blue, I just sat down and put them

1733
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:52,160
all together and outline and that was a hundred pages.

1734
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:55,600
And I said, wow, I've pretty much got a good start to this book.

1735
01:48:55,600 --> 01:49:00,680
So I sent the manuscript in and got approval to write the book.

1736
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:04,600
And from there, it became, okay, what do I want to share?

1737
01:49:04,600 --> 01:49:09,760
And it became really fun because when I wrote articles, they were just too high level.

1738
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:14,080
I think I was writing, I was trying to, I was trying to sound too collegiate.

1739
01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:18,600
I was trying to put out, you know, peer reviewed literature and I kept always wanting to have

1740
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:25,080
cited sources and you know, nobody could discredit anything, but writing the book, I transitioned

1741
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:31,000
to storytelling a little bit within, but also talking about those better practices and the

1742
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:35,960
things that I felt were just falling short within the fire service.

1743
01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:40,280
So part one is just an overview of mental health and suicide.

1744
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:44,520
And it's not what people expect, you know, tell me those signs and symptoms and warning

1745
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:50,840
signs it's, Hey, we've got to know what we don't know and understand that suicide extends

1746
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:54,840
beyond finding people at risk and creating environments where people can seek help.

1747
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,800
But I also talked in the first part of the book about trauma, what it really is, little

1748
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:05,360
trauma, big trauma, adverse childhood experiences, conversation on bullying and harassment.

1749
01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:10,960
A lot of the research that we find points to, you know, the effects of bullying and

1750
01:50:10,960 --> 01:50:13,520
harassment and how it can lead to suicide.

1751
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:17,160
And I think I thought that was a very important chapter to talk about because it's something

1752
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:19,040
that we don't always talk about.

1753
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:24,560
One of my favorite chapters was the chapter on emotions because like so many other people,

1754
01:50:24,560 --> 01:50:29,200
I was raised to believe that there are good emotions and bad emotions and if you have

1755
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:32,600
bad emotions, you have to learn how to control and suppress them.

1756
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:38,340
But I've now learned and understood or understand that emotions are signs and symptoms and there

1757
01:50:38,340 --> 01:50:40,180
are no good and bad emotions.

1758
01:50:40,180 --> 01:50:42,840
If you are angry, there's a reason for that.

1759
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:47,440
And if you could try to understand why you're angry, you could probably resolve the anger.

1760
01:50:47,440 --> 01:50:52,000
So I really enjoyed the chapter on emotions and basically explaining that emotions are

1761
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:53,000
just signals.

1762
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:57,680
They're telling us that we have to prepare for something and we can make a change.

1763
01:50:57,680 --> 01:51:03,920
So part two of the book was basically kind of followed the idea from Ryan Muncie, how

1764
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:09,680
he, you know, wanted to talk about polyvagal theory and increasing heart rate variability.

1765
01:51:09,680 --> 01:51:13,000
And he explained throughout his book and his work that when you increase heart rate variability,

1766
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:14,400
you increase resilience.

1767
01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:18,480
So the entire part two of the book is how to increase resilience, how to increase our

1768
01:51:18,480 --> 01:51:19,480
heart rate variability.

1769
01:51:19,480 --> 01:51:24,280
And it opens up with a stress bucket model and understanding that there are many ways

1770
01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:28,320
to empty our stress buckets and you just have to pick what works for you.

1771
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:33,600
Of course, the more things you do, the more stress you can release, but it doesn't have

1772
01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:35,440
to be yoga for first responders.

1773
01:51:35,440 --> 01:51:37,760
It doesn't have to be running.

1774
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,820
You can pick what works for you and then slowly add other things to it.

1775
01:51:40,820 --> 01:51:49,800
So part two goes into everything from play to gratitude to relationships to journaling,

1776
01:51:49,800 --> 01:51:53,440
humor, everything that we can do to just empty our stress buckets.

1777
01:51:53,440 --> 01:51:56,560
And then part three is that consultation guide.

1778
01:51:56,560 --> 01:52:01,360
I took our two day peer support class and I basically wrote it out.

1779
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:04,760
And then I added parts that I thought were important that, you know, aren't necessarily

1780
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:06,340
in our two day class.

1781
01:52:06,340 --> 01:52:09,920
For example, there's motivational interviewing, there's postvention.

1782
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,680
So you had a suicide, what's next?

1783
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:17,160
There's a whole chapter on facility dogs and how they're being implemented.

1784
01:52:17,160 --> 01:52:21,080
Probably one of my favorite chapters in the third part is the chapter on potentially traumatic

1785
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:27,200
events because I included a basically a step by step.

1786
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:31,760
And whereas we generally will have a traumatic event or a potentially traumatic event and

1787
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:38,160
we call an outside team, it starts with get to know your people, find out what they need.

1788
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:42,800
Maybe it's a phone call home, maybe it's a hot shower, sit down and talk and express

1789
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:45,360
the emotions and help your crew.

1790
01:52:45,360 --> 01:52:47,880
You don't have to call an outsider right away.

1791
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:53,960
And the beauty of that chapter is Scott Robinson, who leads the IAFF with behavioral health

1792
01:52:53,960 --> 01:53:00,040
and is just probably one of the most brilliant subject matter experts in behavioral health.

1793
01:53:00,040 --> 01:53:03,000
He responded to the station nightclub fire and he shared his story.

1794
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:05,160
And in that chapter is his story.

1795
01:53:05,160 --> 01:53:09,560
And one of the things I appreciated about it is he talked about the difference from

1796
01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:15,320
the sterile CISM team that showed up versus when he got back to the firehouse, the guy

1797
01:53:15,320 --> 01:53:19,440
who wasn't a trained peer supporter, but actually, you know, it was like, hey, what can I do

1798
01:53:19,440 --> 01:53:20,440
for you?

1799
01:53:20,440 --> 01:53:21,760
Like, how can I help you?

1800
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:25,960
And the impact that had, because I think that to me just gives everybody the courage to

1801
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:30,920
know that it doesn't matter if you've had this formal training, just show up for people.

1802
01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:33,880
So that's pretty much the book in a nutshell.

1803
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:38,200
I hope that everybody can get something out of it.

1804
01:53:38,200 --> 01:53:41,800
It's one of those books you don't start from the beginning and read to the end.

1805
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:44,240
You pick the chapters that are of value to you.

1806
01:53:44,240 --> 01:53:45,240
I'm going to read that out.

1807
01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:51,160
Frank just said, Dina, I've read the whole book and the time you took to explain it.

1808
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:53,000
All right.

1809
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:57,960
Well, I want to throw one more question at both of you before we wrap up.

1810
01:53:57,960 --> 01:54:00,880
And I think it's in the title of your book.

1811
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:04,040
And I think this is what I've seen now, this constant evolution.

1812
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:08,800
Like I looked at the Dark Side project that I started eight years ago as a Facebook page.

1813
01:54:08,800 --> 01:54:10,680
And I said about having PTSD.

1814
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:12,040
I don't have PTSD.

1815
01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:13,040
I didn't.

1816
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:17,240
But at the time, that's what the phrase was of anyone that had been affected by the job.

1817
01:54:17,240 --> 01:54:18,240
And so we've evolved.

1818
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:23,340
Now we understand moral injury and all these other nuances.

1819
01:54:23,340 --> 01:54:29,080
But where I feel that we've a lot of people have got caught, I say like caught the trouser

1820
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:33,560
like on his stigma when you smash the stigma, we need to be able to talk.

1821
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:36,080
Call me, bro, if you're struggling.

1822
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:40,200
Where I feel like the value is, is the hope of post-traumatic growth.

1823
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:44,080
And I know the word resilience and you talked about this and I think it was a responder

1824
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:48,440
resilience podcast has come back to me now because they you had that awkward moment.

1825
01:54:48,440 --> 01:54:51,840
We realize you were questioning the very word that was in their title.

1826
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:58,280
But but I think that the two point O version of people that I've heard so often that have

1827
01:54:58,280 --> 01:55:01,440
found their own unique toolbox and work through it.

1828
01:55:01,440 --> 01:55:06,300
And again, it's still a roller coaster, but a much less acute roller coaster.

1829
01:55:06,300 --> 01:55:12,320
That is exciting to be a beacon of hope for other people to now really use your struggles

1830
01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:13,320
as strength.

1831
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:15,320
I mean, it truly is resilience.

1832
01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:21,160
If you look at it that way, where it's a growth, I think that is exciting.

1833
01:55:21,160 --> 01:55:22,160
That is inspiring.

1834
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:24,200
That is like, oh, this is worth the work.

1835
01:55:24,200 --> 01:55:28,360
You know, I can maybe kind of repair some of the damage that I did at home, whatever

1836
01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:29,360
it was.

1837
01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:35,160
So talk to me about hope when it comes to people kind of understanding that there is

1838
01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:37,760
a better version of a self different.

1839
01:55:37,760 --> 01:55:41,680
As you point out, we you know, I'm a different person than I was when I, you know, before

1840
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:42,760
I entered the fire service.

1841
01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:44,640
And that will never change the things I've seen.

1842
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:49,040
And you know, the impact on my body from the shifts and all the things.

1843
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:53,920
But here we are sitting at 50 years old and I'm talking to you incredible people.

1844
01:55:53,920 --> 01:55:57,080
And you know, come out the other end and able to do this.

1845
01:55:57,080 --> 01:55:59,460
I didn't, you know, end my own life at that point.

1846
01:55:59,460 --> 01:56:01,240
And I think that is exciting.

1847
01:56:01,240 --> 01:56:03,480
That's what really needs to be talked about.

1848
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:06,280
So Dina, because your mic is off, is on still.

1849
01:56:06,280 --> 01:56:07,840
Let's start with you.

1850
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:12,120
The hope in the person on the other side of the work.

1851
01:56:12,120 --> 01:56:13,120
Absolutely.

1852
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:15,920
Great question.

1853
01:56:15,920 --> 01:56:20,320
One of my little slogans a lot of people don't quite understand is hope is a function of

1854
01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:21,360
struggle.

1855
01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:27,020
You don't learn hope without having struggle and through struggle you learn hope.

1856
01:56:27,020 --> 01:56:31,760
And when you implement what you've learned, that's how you come on the other side better

1857
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:32,760
and stronger.

1858
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:38,440
And we know from anybody who's experienced tremendous trauma, those are generally the

1859
01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:44,600
people who, you know, have the most hope because they've seen that they can get through it.

1860
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:49,440
But also, you know, I've always for years, it's amazing that you run into people and

1861
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:53,200
you can almost tell that somebody's been through something because of the kindness that they

1862
01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:58,120
show or because of their appreciation and their love for life.

1863
01:56:58,120 --> 01:57:02,560
And we know studying, you know, prisoners of war, it's amazing.

1864
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:07,000
Years later, they say that was fundamental in creating the people they are today was

1865
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:08,760
that experience.

1866
01:57:08,760 --> 01:57:11,120
It's not these experiences that break us.

1867
01:57:11,120 --> 01:57:14,320
These experiences truly do give us perspective.

1868
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:21,000
However, we do and that's where the whole, you know, polyvagal theory and the idea of

1869
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:27,840
upstream comes in because, yeah, you can be broken by a bad call or traumatic experience

1870
01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:34,020
if you're not prepared, if you don't have the resources to cope from it.

1871
01:57:34,020 --> 01:57:38,080
But with those resources and the ability to talk about it and the ability to process it,

1872
01:57:38,080 --> 01:57:39,880
you do come out on the other side.

1873
01:57:39,880 --> 01:57:44,080
And that was one of the reasons that Joshua Mence's book was so powerful to me because

1874
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:49,120
he mentioned that the trauma he experienced when he got shot and almost died was a red

1875
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:50,120
herring.

1876
01:57:50,120 --> 01:57:51,480
That was a scapegoat.

1877
01:57:51,480 --> 01:57:54,760
His struggles, his adversity had nothing to do with being shot.

1878
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:58,720
It had to do with everything that happened in life before then and then relationships.

1879
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:03,620
But it took him having the courage to be honest about his struggles for him to heal from them

1880
01:58:03,620 --> 01:58:04,620
and move forward.

1881
01:58:04,620 --> 01:58:12,800
And I think one of the problems we're facing today is we've destigmatized having adverse

1882
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:14,720
reactions to bad calls.

1883
01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:17,680
We've destigmatized what we see.

1884
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,320
I think one of the things that you would always show or you would always say, you know, if

1885
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:22,320
my eyes could forget.

1886
01:58:22,320 --> 01:58:26,680
Yeah, I wish my mind could forget what my eyes have seen, which is a quote from Byrne.

1887
01:58:26,680 --> 01:58:29,200
Yes, yes.

1888
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:34,120
But a lot of us have, you know, we're seeing, and Sebastian Younger says it, we're searching

1889
01:58:34,120 --> 01:58:41,280
our memories for that traumatic call or that traumatic event that has messed us up when

1890
01:58:41,280 --> 01:58:45,440
maybe that's not it and we just have to be patient and have the time to try to understand

1891
01:58:45,440 --> 01:58:46,760
what's truly impacting us.

1892
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:51,600
And that's why that's one of the reasons why I'm not the biggest fan of the word resilience

1893
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:55,380
and its true definition, because resilience is just bouncing back.

1894
01:58:55,380 --> 01:58:57,320
It's recovering your original form.

1895
01:58:57,320 --> 01:58:59,000
I wish there was another word.

1896
01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,620
And the closest word right now is anti-fragile.

1897
01:59:01,620 --> 01:59:04,200
But a lot of people struggle with that word because it sounds callous.

1898
01:59:04,200 --> 01:59:09,100
But anti-fragile is basically taking tools so that you don't shatter under pressure,

1899
01:59:09,100 --> 01:59:13,840
so that you can withstand, not to be callous, but to be able to grow and move forward and

1900
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,600
take the adversity and the struggles to be stronger.

1901
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:21,560
And since Frank could probably read his entire book and the time that I took to explain that,

1902
01:59:21,560 --> 01:59:22,560
I'll let him.

1903
01:59:22,560 --> 01:59:24,840
Well, Frank, we talked about Dina's book.

1904
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:29,120
So let's talk about yours and then answer that question as well.

1905
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:30,620
I like the word resilience.

1906
01:59:30,620 --> 01:59:32,360
So now I got to come up with a new word.

1907
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:35,760
I think it's exciting, right?

1908
01:59:35,760 --> 01:59:40,640
The work that we're doing is building resilience and even if it is just bouncing back, right?

1909
01:59:40,640 --> 01:59:48,000
So both mentally, physically, I think that's important that we have so many people not

1910
01:59:48,000 --> 01:59:51,920
only pulling in the same direction, but also pulling on the same rope, which I think is

1911
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:55,160
so important.

1912
01:59:55,160 --> 01:59:59,120
And it's so hopeful for the future of what we're doing.

1913
01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:04,240
So I think it's been a great conversation.

1914
02:00:04,240 --> 02:00:07,000
So I have two books.

1915
02:00:07,000 --> 02:00:10,680
I have Cornerstones of Leadership, which has been out a little over a year now.

1916
02:00:10,680 --> 02:00:14,000
And then I have 35, as you must know, which is more recently out.

1917
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:18,520
That's about 35 that you must know.

1918
02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:21,440
And it's co-written with Billy Goldfeder.

1919
02:00:21,440 --> 02:00:25,160
Both of the books have done really well.

1920
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:29,400
It's been really humbling on how well they've both been doing.

1921
02:00:29,400 --> 02:00:35,520
And they're both available on Amazon.

1922
02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:39,320
Or if you see me speaking somewhere, I typically have them as does Nina.

1923
02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:43,280
And one's on leadership and one's on fires that you need to know about.

1924
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:50,920
So it's again, humbling the support that each of them has gotten.

1925
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:58,760
There'll be another 35, as you must know, at some point, because the feedback that we've

1926
02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:04,600
gotten, the messages I've gotten from people saying, hey, you've got to look at this fire.

1927
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:08,680
And fires I've known nothing about, people have got to my attention.

1928
02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:11,640
So there'll definitely be another addition.

1929
02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:16,680
Will that be called 35 as slightly less important that you should probably know as well?

1930
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:21,520
Yeah, or just 30 more fires you must know.

1931
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:22,520
Because they're all important.

1932
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:23,520
That's part of the problem.

1933
02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:32,160
They're not part of the problem, but they're all important because every firefighter, especially

1934
02:01:32,160 --> 02:01:36,520
the ones that resulted in the line of duty injury or death, they're really important

1935
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:37,760
because we lost somebody.

1936
02:01:37,760 --> 02:01:38,760
Yeah.

1937
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:42,000
Was it yesterday or the day before that was the anniversary?

1938
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:47,760
Chief DiBernardo, his son and the other gentleman on Black Sunday Fire, which I know you don't

1939
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:51,080
like calling it the Black Sunday Fire and there was two that day as well.

1940
02:01:51,080 --> 02:01:54,120
Yeah, there are two fires.

1941
02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:59,840
And each claimed the lives of firefighters, one in the Bronx and one in Brooklyn.

1942
02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:06,520
And the generational impact that those fires have had, and knowing several of the survivors

1943
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:13,520
and knowing I knew Joey D. I've since gotten to know his dad.

1944
02:02:13,520 --> 02:02:17,880
And he posts often on social media.

1945
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:20,120
But it's a generational impact.

1946
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:24,720
He lost his son, something that no parent should have to go through.

1947
02:02:24,720 --> 02:02:25,720
Absolutely.

1948
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:30,640
I think that really kind of rounds off the conversation is we're going to lose some people

1949
02:02:30,640 --> 02:02:34,920
having done everything we can to make sure we don't lose anyone operationally.

1950
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:39,680
I mean, Honolulu, I don't know the backstory, but we just lost a Hawaiian firefighter about

1951
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:40,680
two weeks ago.

1952
02:02:40,680 --> 02:02:43,360
And I believe that was a collapse.

1953
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:44,500
Can you extrapolate?

1954
02:02:44,500 --> 02:02:45,500
Was there mistakes made?

1955
02:02:45,500 --> 02:02:50,320
I don't know who will only have to find out the after action, but there's just going to

1956
02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:53,400
be times where we lose people and that's the hazard of the job.

1957
02:02:53,400 --> 02:02:57,960
But what we've been talking about today, each one of those elements is preventable.

1958
02:02:57,960 --> 02:03:03,120
The health of the firefighter, the work week, the conversations, the offloading of childhood

1959
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:05,440
trauma as we enter the profession.

1960
02:03:05,440 --> 02:03:08,400
There are so many tools that we can action.

1961
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:12,680
As you mentioned, I mean, suicide, cancer and heart disease or cardiac issues, those

1962
02:03:12,680 --> 02:03:16,720
three alone make up most of the pie chart if you think about it.

1963
02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:23,760
So imagine the resources we would have to focus on operational losses if we weren't

1964
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:28,680
losing people from completely preventable mental and physical health disease.

1965
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:30,400
Yeah.

1966
02:03:30,400 --> 02:03:35,440
And we used to lose a lot of people on the fire ground, but we've looked at that and

1967
02:03:35,440 --> 02:03:41,480
evaluated that and we've made sure we've made adjustments and changes to policies and procedures

1968
02:03:41,480 --> 02:03:43,440
and tactics.

1969
02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:47,760
So we see the roadmap and that didn't happen by accident.

1970
02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:54,000
And now if we could take that same approach, imagine if we could take that same approach

1971
02:03:54,000 --> 02:04:00,800
and make a similar difference in off the fire ground line of duty deaths.

1972
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:05,760
It would be profound and it will be profound when we get there because we will get there.

1973
02:04:05,760 --> 02:04:06,760
Absolutely.

1974
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:07,760
All right.

1975
02:04:07,760 --> 02:04:12,080
Dina, just for people listening, where can people find your book?

1976
02:04:12,080 --> 02:04:16,480
You can find my book both on Amazon and then fire engineering.

1977
02:04:16,480 --> 02:04:18,520
Sometimes fire engineering has specials.

1978
02:04:18,520 --> 02:04:21,400
The shipping there is a little high Amazon for a lot of people.

1979
02:04:21,400 --> 02:04:22,720
They can get it with free shipping.

1980
02:04:22,720 --> 02:04:23,720
Brilliant.

1981
02:04:23,720 --> 02:04:27,600
And then where's the best place for people to learn about the fire service, mental wellness

1982
02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:32,140
and suicide prevention symposium?

1983
02:04:32,140 --> 02:04:35,560
So we've got an abundant amount of social media.

1984
02:04:35,560 --> 02:04:39,840
However, if you go to either the First Responder Center for Excellence or the National Firefighters

1985
02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:43,400
websites, there'll be an easy link to it on both of those.

1986
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:48,880
And then if you find our social media, either Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook or Instagram,

1987
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:52,360
we have an awesome person behind the scenes with the social media.

1988
02:04:52,360 --> 02:04:55,920
There's a lot of information being shared there and even information about each of the

1989
02:04:55,920 --> 02:04:56,920
speakers.

1990
02:04:56,920 --> 02:04:58,760
Well, I want to thank you both so much.

1991
02:04:58,760 --> 02:05:04,240
It's been such an amazing conversation, two very different perspectives, lenses, generations,

1992
02:05:04,240 --> 02:05:08,100
and that's what makes this such a powerful conversation, as I always say, the Venn diagram

1993
02:05:08,100 --> 02:05:10,840
when it overlaps, that's where you find the truth.

1994
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:13,840
And we've, I believe, extrapolated a lot of truths today.

1995
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:18,480
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1996
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:20,920
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1997
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:21,920
Thank you, James.

1998
02:05:21,920 --> 02:05:22,920
It's been great.

1999
02:05:22,920 --> 02:05:23,920
Thank you.

2000
02:05:23,920 --> 02:05:27,200
Thank you for what you do for the fire service and what you continue to do.

2001
02:05:27,200 --> 02:05:34,200
I'm glad to you.

2002
02:05:34,200 --> 02:06:01,200
Thank you.