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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

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the Super EPA and then most recently, Cynaquil.

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When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX.

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Now to learn more about Thorne, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community.

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As a strength and conditioning coach myself who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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of wellness information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning software for tactical athletes.

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And there are several features that really impress me.

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Firstly, there is a full exercise library so you, the personal trainer, does not have

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to create that within your own department.

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Secondly, you can send out programming but also individualize, which I love.

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So you blanket program for everyone.

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Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, someone's need to maybe drop some body composition

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rather than having to write a program for every single person on their own.

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TeamBuildr also allows you to build custom questionnaires to collate health and wellness

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data.

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It integrates with wearables.

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And I think one of the most important things is obviously it tracks.

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To me, it's imperative that we as a profession start tracking our people from day one and

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then over the full span of their career.

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Therefore catching potential wellness issues and injuries before they happen.

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Now if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering you, the audience of the Behind

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the Shield podcast, a free 14 day trial to experience all of the features.

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And if you want to take a deeper dive into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder.com.

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And I'll spell that to you because it's not as you think.

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T-E-A-M-B-U-I-L-D-R.com.

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This episode is sponsored by Global Medical Response, yet another sponsor that I have

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tracked down because they have a solution to one of the biggest problems we have in

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emergency medicine and healthcare.

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We often hear the term 911 abuse, but what I love is the concept that this should be

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a three tier system.

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ALS, BLS, and then the non-emergent element.

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With the evolution of telehealth and telemedicine, that third tier is now possible virtually.

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In 2018, Global Medical Response pioneered 911 nurse navigation.

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In communities across the country, GMR's nurse navigators use evidence-based clinical

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protocols to screen a patient's current condition, providing an appropriate resource

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to meet the patient's unique healthcare needs, whether that's dispatching a rideshare

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to an urgent care, an appointment at a federally qualified health center, or virtual care with

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a physician on the spot.

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The five level screening system ensures patients receive the right resource at the right time

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in the right setting to achieve the right outcome at the right cost.

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So as a huge advocate for our first responders health and of course the people that we serve,

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this solves three issues.

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It allows the patient to have a far less expensive option when it comes to their non-emergent

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issue.

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It stops a firefighter or a paramedic being woken up for that call, and it frees up an

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ER bed for a true emergency.

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So if you want to hear more about how GMR can integrate nurse navigation in your 911

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system, listen to episode 998 with Joshua Rose and Dr. Jared Troutman, or go to globalmedicalresponse.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show Air Force Protective Services agent, veteran civilian police officer, and the author

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of Hiding in Plain Sight, Doug White.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Doug's journey into the military,

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working with US special operations, bomb disposal, terrorism, his near suicide and powerful post

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traumatic growth story, and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Doug White.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Doug, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Nick O'Kelly for making this connection.

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And secondly, to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Thank you, James.

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It's great to be here.

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Very excited about this.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this morning?

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I'm about 80 miles due south of you in Tampa, Florida.

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Beautiful.

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Gorgeous part of the country.

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So I'd love to start at the very beginning of your timeline.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings.

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Okay.

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Well, I was born in Bradenton, Florida, just a little bit further south of Tampa in a big

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pink hospital at the time at Manatee Memorial.

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We lived there in Bradenton for about the first six months of my life, but we then moved

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to Memphis, Tennessee.

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My dad was, well, not at first an executive, he was a salesman and he sold building materials.

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He imported and exported plywood and lumber and stuff like that from Indonesia.

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And moved the whole family to Memphis where I spent the first six years of my life and

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picked up a very, very thick Southern draw.

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Still I get messed with by family members for that when they recall my youth.

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But I have a sister, she's 10 months older than I am.

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And we've become much closer as we've gotten older.

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She was my nemesis as I was growing up.

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So as all big sisters should be.

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Mom was a homemaker and a banker later at bank executive and got into mortgages.

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And my parents have been married now, I've got to do the quick math, 53 and a half years.

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So yes, they live locally about 15 minutes away.

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I just saw dad yesterday and hung out with him for a little bit, but family is still

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close, all here local.

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And when I was six, we moved back to Tampa and we've been here ever since.

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Other than my four years on active duty, where I was in Western Washington in the Air Force

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at now Joint Base Lewis McCord.

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I was stationed out there, came right back home and tested for the Hillsborough County

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Sheriff's Office and I retired after 25 years of service back in July of 23.

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So 10 months apart, you must have been a big surprise.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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I was the miracle baby and I made sure I told my sister that all the time.

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I wasn't supposed to be here.

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I didn't realize at the time that that was not necessarily an accident.

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I was hoped for, but unexpected nonetheless.

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Yeah, that's still a brave woman though, that close to childbirth to just be like, all right,

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let's do it again.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The seventies were a crazy time, man.

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A lot of drugs.

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Well, speaking of that, talk to me about the longevity of their marriage.

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I don't know if you had any conversations with them or if you just kind of now with

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adult eyes reflect, what was it that made their marriage so strong in a world where

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many of us are divorced at least once?

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Urban.

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No, I'm kidding.

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Absolutely kidding.

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I don't know.

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I think there's differences across the generations, honestly.

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I haven't really given much thought to this from their perspective, but that'd be a great

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question to ask them.

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I know that I would imagine the communication and love and just being committed to one another

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helped them quite a bit.

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I know that their marriage, the affection that they showed for my sister and I and to

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each other outwardly was a great example for us.

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My sister's been married since, oh God, my first trip to the desert, so the summer of

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94.

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So she's been married since 94.

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Two wonderful kids and I've been married.

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My second marriage, I should probably give the caveat.

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My first one was one of those active duty, I'm away from home and I love marriages.

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It was very, very short lived.

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I learned a lot in that short time, but I met and married Michelle when I came back

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home and we've been dating since late 97, got married in July of 2000 and have been

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going strong ever since.

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From my perspective, that's a question from Michelle, honestly, we've always had a us

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against them attitude.

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She and I against the world and everything that we need is inside these four walls to

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include our now teen children.

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With my own experience in that, it's been communication, understanding, commitment and

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a whole lot of grace that I did not deserve.

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Beautiful, well, we'll unpack that more because I know obviously the families are obviously

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a big part of our journey and our story.

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When you reflect back to when you were younger, what were you doing and playing as far as

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sports and exercise?

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Playing I was played football, American football.

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I was not good at European football or soccer.

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It was football, T-ball, baseball.

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In high school, I ran track, swam and wrestled, played football my sophomore year of high

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school, but quickly realized that I hated running.

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I took the swim route and I had been swimming competitively since the age of five, club

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teams in the neighborhood and stuff like that, YMCA and the like.

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Swimming is what carried me through.

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I loved swimming.

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When I was a kid, I was always outside.

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We had the old Atari and Pac-Man and we'd sit around the small TV and play that for

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hours.

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At some point, mom and dad wanted to play so they'd kick us out.

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So while they had the TV and we'd play football and baseball and of course, we'd pick up

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our favorite sticks and play guns and army and all of that stuff.

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Just an active kid.

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I was a skater.

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The 70s were crazy, so were the 80s.

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I spent a lot of time on skateboards going all over the place.

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If there was a sidewalk or a smooth street, we were there.

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When you look at the impact of the individual sports versus the team sports, how did that

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experience factor into your military and law enforcement preparation and career?

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Well, I don't really know that it did as I was younger.

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I don't know that that really factored in other than good sportsmanship and dedication,

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the discipline it takes to go to the practice and do your best and be part of a team.

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I think my military career shaped that mindset for me more than anything else.

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I know I always wanted to be part of something special, something bigger than myself.

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It was a very patriarchal household growing up.

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My father served in the army in the early 60s.

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My Uncle Nicky had served.

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My Uncle Don, who recently passed, was a Navy veteran.

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So I had plenty of military veterans around me.

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My mom's side of the family were either in law enforcement or elected officials.

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So I had positive images of service.

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I think the military was more formative for me than sports were.

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If I had to really pin it down, I would have more examples of my military service and being

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part of something bigger, just contributing my part.

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We're going to obviously talk about the highs and the lows of your own personal mental health

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journey.

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One of the least discussed elements of first responder mental health is what happened to

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us from birth or arguably even prior to birth and when we put the uniform on in the first

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place.

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When you reflect now with these kind of wise lens that you have, were there any elements

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of your upbringing that you think contributed to that?

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That's a great question.

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I've been paying attention more recently to the adverse childhood experiences and having

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heard some of your episodes and some of the others that I listen to, it's very clear.

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The evidence is there.

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So the adverse childhood experiences, I have been looking back at my own childhood and

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I really, I mean, I was bullied as a kid by bigger neighborhood kids.

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To a point at that time, it wasn't, I was never thought about lashing out or getting

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even or anything like that.

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I hated bullies and I despise bullies and I always would take up for the underdog as

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far as I was able.

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I had bigger friends, so they took care of me and I was still a little buddy, which is

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kind of funny to see me now, 6'1", 225 pounds, me being the little guy.

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Oddly enough, I'm still the little guy.

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You wouldn't think that that was the case, but I was bullied.

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Not really, other than my service and wanting to protect people, I think that came from

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there.

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I've heard the term the ambition of shame and it's one that Chris Free actually used

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and one of his friends used actually.

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You essentially, you are trying to, for the rest of your life or whatever period of time,

236
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:09,200
you were trying to earn someone's respect or you're trying to always do more to prove

237
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,600
yourself to someone else.

238
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I think that for me, well, we'll get into that in the military part, but I think I was

239
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,280
always trying to seek someone else's approval instead of my own.

240
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,520
I think that drove me a lot farther than I may have gone on my own.

241
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,840
Of course, when you're following somebody else's approval, you're going to find that

242
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,960
that goal line moves quite often and you're going to find yourself never fulfilled or

243
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,160
at least in my experience.

244
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,160
Keep always going for more and it'll get better at the next thing or the next assignment or

245
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,160
the next promotion.

246
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,360
If you enjoy it for a moment, then it's time to go for that next one because the line has

247
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,800
moved again.

248
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,600
Back to your original question, I can't think of any adverse childhood experiences really

249
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,680
that impacted me, not in a trauma sense or anything like that.

250
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,560
Again, my parents still married, my sister and I had a great relationship, the family

251
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,720
is intact.

252
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,720
I was very lucky, very fortunate.

253
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,080
I can relate to that little guy element.

254
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,080
I was really small.

255
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,360
I told my son, I had my growth spurt at 18 years old.

256
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:27,720
We graduated school at 16.

257
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,960
I was around men and I'm still this, I don't know how short I was, but a lot shorter and

258
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,440
way skinnier.

259
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:40,960
I'm not a big guy now, I'm 6'1", 180, so kind of average-ish, maybe on the skinnier side.

260
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,880
Did martial arts my whole life work out at 50?

261
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,280
I would say compared to some of my peers, I'm probably in good shape and better trained

262
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,920
when it comes to combat than a lot of people.

263
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,720
I still feel like the whole world could kick my ass.

264
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,360
It's funny, some of these things, they just never leave you.

265
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:04,240
One of my Delta friends says he's never heard so much imposter syndrome than the team room

266
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,840
from Delta.

267
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,320
These are some of the most elite war fighters on the planet.

268
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It's a human experience, it really is.

269
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,760
Nothing to be ashamed of when you identify it and realize that these extrinsic things

270
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,640
will never satisfy that internal element.

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00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,040
I think that's when you can exhale and go, okay, it's just there, it's just part of me,

272
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:30,640
but I don't need to constantly try and fill this void because it's just part of my DNA

273
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,860
and it's fine.

274
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:33,440
That second part is the tricky part.

275
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:41,280
I can identify it, yes, it's imposter syndrome, but is there something more I can do?

276
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,920
There's always one more thing.

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00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:50,640
I was speaking to a friend yesterday and he said, if you're not working anymore, you're

278
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,280
not in law enforcement, you're not in the fire service or in the military, you don't

279
00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:00,440
have a mission to train for, why are you deadlifting 315 pounds?

280
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,640
When are you ever going to do that as a retiree or somebody enjoying the golf course?

281
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:12,400
I said, I understand that, but what if you're in the gym and some punk is slinging around

282
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,800
and dropping it when you don't have to, doing the big grunts and all that, you're like,

283
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,400
man, I could kick this guy's ass.

284
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,880
What's wrong with the little ego lifting?

285
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,440
I mean, at 51, because I'll hurt my back and be down for three weeks, but I got to show

286
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,560
them what's what.

287
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:33,200
So to finding that and understanding that enough is enough, that's the hard part, turning

288
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,200
that off.

289
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,040
I think being in the right, being in a team room, my last 10 years of my military experience,

290
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:47,920
I was around some of the most professional men and women to have ever been in service.

291
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,480
It's all the same thing.

292
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:50,960
It's all the same thing.

293
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,000
Why is that guy better than I am?

294
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,840
I've got to do something more.

295
00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:01,060
If he's eating two grams of protein per pound of ideal body weight, I got to do three.

296
00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:05,440
It's always got to be that one more to get the edge and I don't know that ever leaves

297
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,440
us.

298
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,160
I hope it leaves me one day and stop hurting myself.

299
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,200
Well, I reframed because I mean, obviously I stepped out to do this and you talk about

300
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,440
identity crisis.

301
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,840
One minute I'm wearing bunker gear and I'm also a paramedic.

302
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:24,800
The next time a podcaster, some spotty 16 year old.

303
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,280
So there wasn't a little bit of an identity crisis.

304
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,680
I volunteered for a heartbeat and absolutely hated it.

305
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,200
I felt like a medic ride along student.

306
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:39,400
But then I realized, well, there's a chance of doing the things that I did in uniform

307
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,760
just as a neighbor, just as a member of the community.

308
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,920
And I've helped on car wrecks before I did it.

309
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,200
I worked to code on a plane about a year ago.

310
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,200
You never know where just as a sheepdog, I know that term gets thrown around, but someone

311
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,680
who considers himself a protector in that community or a responder or a rescuer, that

312
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,280
that's why I keep training, you know, to God, what happens if someone tries to cost my wife

313
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,400
or you know, you see someone walking towards a school with a gun or, you know, whatever

314
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,440
it is, those are the moments that I still train for because, you know, they will still

315
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:12,440
happen.

316
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,280
And if there's someone in uniform around, great, they can handle it.

317
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,200
If there's not, it's on you.

318
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:21,880
So that's why I'm not looking for one rep PRs anymore, but that's what keeps me training.

319
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,840
The what if the same as when we were in uniform, what if you have that school shooting that,

320
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,400
you know, high rise tower fire with the elevators are out.

321
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,820
I need to be able to get to that level.

322
00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:36,520
But now it's more like, what if I pull up on a car wreck and the car is pinning someone

323
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,260
and you need to, you know, you and a couple of bystanders and pick it up so they can drag

324
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:41,720
the person out before they asphyxiate.

325
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,640
You know, these are the, these are the things that I train for now.

326
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,280
And then that way it still gives purpose to the workouts because I couldn't give a shit

327
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,280
how I look.

328
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,760
I just want to be able to respond.

329
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,320
No, I love that.

330
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,080
And you're, you're absolutely right.

331
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,400
You know, when I was working, um, I started in triathlon and you know, the longer the

332
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,600
distance, the faster this that and stronger.

333
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,200
And, um, you know, I was training at the time and I had confessed myself that I'm training

334
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,240
that when the day comes, I'm going to be the hardest person that anybody's ever tried to

335
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,240
kill.

336
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,940
And that was, that was my mindset and everything was to failure.

337
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:17,920
Everything was to, uh, you know, Rabdo.

338
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,400
I mean, that was, it was always because somebody one day is going to try to kill me and I'm

339
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,480
going to be the hardest person they've ever tried to kill.

340
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,000
And now in retirement, uh, you know, if I'm asked, I'm training for life.

341
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,720
I'm training to be, um, you know, the, the 80 year old man during bikini season, that's

342
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:42,160
just, you know, rocking the Speedos are still competing in triathlon or, you know, yeah,

343
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,800
well, yeah, but I want to be the 80 year old that can still get out of bed without stretching

344
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,800
for 45 minutes.

345
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,360
Um, you know, I want to be the person who bankrupts to stay to Florida with my pension.

346
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,160
Like they're, they're going to send somebody to kill me because they got to fix potholes.

347
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,400
And I've, I've been hanging on 60 years into retirement.

348
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,400
That's my goal.

349
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,120
So, um, yeah, that's what I'm training for.

350
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:05,960
No, I could, I could give, I could care less about, you know, out repping the, uh, the

351
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,920
guy that's doing half reps in the gym anyway.

352
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,920
Have you ever seen, I think it's usually at Christmas.

353
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,840
Um, yeah, it would be Christmas.

354
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,580
There was an amazing, um, like short film that was on going around social media and

355
00:24:19,580 --> 00:24:24,060
it was this, it looked like someone kind of like Eastern Europe and this guy was training

356
00:24:24,060 --> 00:24:27,520
in his shed and he has this kettlebell and he's doing this weird kind of movement from

357
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,320
like his, the ground to his chest.

358
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,400
And then at the end it's because he's training to pick his granddaughter up so she can put

359
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,600
the star on the Christmas tree.

360
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,680
I think that's the perfect analogy of why we should keep training.

361
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,680
It's beautiful.

362
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,680
I did see that.

363
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,000
I've seen it a few times and I can assure you, I did not cry on any one of those.

364
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000
Did not.

365
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,000
It was beautiful, but I didn't cry.

366
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000
All right.

367
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,760
Well, let's walk through your journey into military.

368
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,240
So prior to that, when you were in the high school age, were you already thinking of law

369
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,600
enforcement and military or was there something else?

370
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,720
There was nothing else.

371
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,640
It was, it was military for me.

372
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,280
Um, I was a marginal student because I was lazy, uh, had nothing to do with aptitude

373
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,280
and had everything to do with attitude.

374
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,320
Um, didn't like doing homework.

375
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,160
I wanted to go to parties and you know, do fun things with my buddies.

376
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,120
So, um, college was not a thing for me.

377
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,080
It wasn't anything that I worked towards then.

378
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,760
Um, but military service and I was split between, you know, I think my sophomore year, I wanted

379
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:35,960
to go to the Marine Corps because the uniforms and well, Marine Corps and, um, you know,

380
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,800
my, my sister's boyfriend, when I was a junior, he went into the Navy.

381
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,800
Obviously she was a year ahead of me, but, uh, so, you know, for me it was all, all Navy

382
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,800
shirts.

383
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:44,800
I'm going to go in the Navy.

384
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,040
I have no idea what I'm going to do in the Navy, but, uh, you know, seals, that was a

385
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,040
cool movie.

386
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,640
So maybe I'll do that.

387
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,640
Um, then my senior year, it was, it was all army.

388
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,200
Uh, you know, I, I did not know which branch that I wanted, but I just knew that I wanted

389
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,680
to serve.

390
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:08,800
And um, my senior year, I went to the recruiter's office and you know, I'll show my dad I'm

391
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,240
a man, you know, I'll, I'm going to go join up like he did.

392
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,440
And uh, went into the army recruiter's office and like, man, there's a lot of green here.

393
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,880
It's not really a pretty shade of green either.

394
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,240
It's kind of drab green shirts.

395
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,720
You know, this is like 91, 92 and, um, you know, the uniforms went to khakis, the cool

396
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:30,800
ones you see now.

397
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,880
But uh, I went in there and the Sergeant was, was happy to see me.

398
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,120
I said, I want to be an MP, but I want to be a Ranger and I want to be a tank paratrooper.

399
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,920
And you know, all the things that, that stupid high school kids say when they go see the

400
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,880
recruiter, you know, this, this dude had me out front on pull up bars and I was, you know,

401
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,560
snatching out the pull ups and you know, doing pushups.

402
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,600
I was all kinds of motivated and he was like, man, I'm going to get my steak knife set this

403
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:56,600
month.

404
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,600
This guy's going to bring all of his friends in.

405
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:06,200
And um, he had me convinced, uh, to go 11 Bravo infantry with an airborne option and

406
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,200
a Ranger option.

407
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,200
That's what he told me.

408
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,880
I, I didn't know then that that was a thing and I still don't even know now if that was

409
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,720
even a thing, but uh, I was like, yeah, brother, let's do this.

410
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,880
All right, sorry.

411
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,240
You know, so, uh, went home and told my dad that I'm, this is, this is what I'm doing

412
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,040
and I'm going to go to the processing center and I'm going to list and leave when I, you

413
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,040
know, get out of high school.

414
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,720
My dad just shook his head and he was 11 Bravo.

415
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:38,120
He was airborne and uh, he said, you know, son, I've gotten a call every day since 1960

416
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:42,040
and 65, people wanting to hire me to jump out of planes and kill people.

417
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,440
I was like, for real?

418
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,560
Why are you selling plywood?

419
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,040
But uh, you know, the sarcasm was lost on me, but uh, he made his point that if I was

420
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,440
going to do something when I got out, you know, if that's what I wanted to do, then

421
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:02,000
he supported me a hundred percent, but he was trying to give me a broader idea of if

422
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,440
you decide not to do more than four years, uh, what are you going to do when you get

423
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:07,440
out?

424
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,200
What are you going to translate to?

425
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,280
So um, I gave that some thought and I still wanted to serve.

426
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,640
I still wanted to be part of a smaller team and something bigger.

427
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,800
And um, I sat on it for a bit and my ASVAB score, I could have done anything in any of

428
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,200
the branches that I wanted to do.

429
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:30,320
So um, a couple of weeks later I went to the air force recruiter and spoke to them and

430
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,880
I had in there, it was, he was a, an air traffic controller.

431
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,520
I said, Hey man, this, this, these are the things I want to do.

432
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,320
And he said, have you thought about the exciting world of combat control?

433
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,680
I said, no, but combat sounds cool and controlling things sounds cool.

434
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,680
So tell me more.

435
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:52,660
So he told me about air force special operations as it was the time it was, um, it was combat

436
00:28:52,660 --> 00:28:57,240
control pair rescue and the tactical air control parties, the tech piece.

437
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:02,840
And uh, man, I was, I was sold jumping out of plane, setting up airfields, you know,

438
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,200
air strikes, this, that, and everything else and scuba.

439
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,340
And you know, I was, I was all about it.

440
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:14,220
So combat control was the way to go until I took my physical and um, the physical, everything

441
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:15,220
was fine.

442
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:19,200
Physically I killed the swim, I killed the run, everything that I was supposed to do

443
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,160
physically was just, uh, it was a layup for me, but then you have to take the medical

444
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,080
physical and uh, they need to make sure that you have depth perception.

445
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,440
And at the time the depth perception was, um, basically you're looking through a viewfinder

446
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:38,160
in a dark room and um, they have a microscope slide with several lines on it.

447
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,480
And one of those lines is on the opposite side of the slide.

448
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,080
So you say five lines on, you know, close to you and one line on the opposite side,

449
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,000
you have to tell them which line is on the other side.

450
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,240
That's like standing in a dark room, looking at your slider, you know, in the backyard

451
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,840
and thinking, is that spot on this side or that or the other side?

452
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,840
Well, I guessed wrong.

453
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,080
So having no depth perception at night, they say you can't land airplanes, which, which

454
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,080
is a good rule.

455
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,840
Um, so I don't know that I understood the test, but I said, okay, well that's what it

456
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:09,840
is.

457
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,520
So, you know, here's other jobs you can do.

458
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,840
It'd be a B-52 tail gunner.

459
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,640
Well, air superiority, there's nobody coming after our B-52s.

460
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,680
So that's kind of a job that's not needed.

461
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,440
You know, I looked at, uh, aircraft crew member, I looked at, uh, EOD, uh, survival, looked

462
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,520
at all of these things.

463
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,520
And I remembered, you know, I wanted to protect people and I want to find something that I

464
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,820
can do after four or 20 years.

465
00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:41,560
So security police is, is what I chose security forces, um, that's what it's called now, but,

466
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,940
uh, I'll be an air force cop.

467
00:30:43,940 --> 00:30:51,800
So when I enlisted, that's what I decided to do and spent 14 and a half years doing that.

468
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,760
Yeah, so my, my first four years were conventional law enforcement and physical security.

469
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:03,400
And then I, I got very, very lucky, uh, as an active reservist to be accepted to a position

470
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,440
at special operations command here at MacDill.

471
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,320
And um, it wasn't the first time I was introduced to special operations forces, but it was the

472
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,120
first time I was able to work with them, uh, hand in hand and to be clear, I was not an

473
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,600
operator.

474
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,480
Um, but I was on the protective services detachment for the command and we were, uh, for lack

475
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,760
of a better term, the knuckle dragging bullet catches for the admirals and the generals

476
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,240
that that were in command and any visiting dignitaries.

477
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,880
And uh, by virtue of that, my team members, there were a few of us that were air force.

478
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,880
We had a Marine, but, um, you know, we had operators as part of our detail that cycled

479
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,160
in during the command tours that were our bosses and our teammates.

480
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:52,360
We had quite a bit of interaction with Rangers, a couple of green berets, but for the most

481
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,760
part they were tier one operators and it was, uh, it was a whole different world, a whole

482
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,760
different world.

483
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,600
Talk to me about the difference between the first four years and that, cause obviously

484
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,520
we can't get into too much detail, but you know, what, what were the kinds of calls,

485
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,040
you know, if you're talking about civilian world, the kind of responses that you had

486
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,760
in that force for a first four versus some of the threats that you were preparing for

487
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,080
later on.

488
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,440
You know, the physical security side, you know, we would have nuclear security if any,

489
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,600
anything would, would come to the base at the time.

490
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:33,000
Uh, just regular physical security, um, and force protection for the most part on the

491
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,360
law enforcement side, uh, we would do, you know, mostly domestics and DUIs couple shoplifts

492
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,400
here and there, uh, a lot of traffic stops because there's really nothing else to do

493
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,400
on base because you know, you have a, a smaller community, even though it's a, you know, a

494
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:53,280
cross section of, of all of America, everybody there knows that if, you know, the police

495
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,000
show up at the door, they already have problems.

496
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,480
There's no, these are my rights and you know, anything like that.

497
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,040
They're already in trouble.

498
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Um, so for the most part, everybody was, was pretty well behaved and contained.

499
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,000
So not a whole lot of exciting stuff there.

500
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:14,240
Um, you know, there were some suicides that we had to respond to that were, uh, of course,

501
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,240
horrific.

502
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,560
Um, but you know, it was just regular law enforcement on a very, very smaller scale.

503
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,200
Now going to do physical security at the command, it was a very, very different story.

504
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,800
You know, it's a building security and satellite building security.

505
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:35,860
Um, so force protection on side of a base of a major command was, uh, was a bit different,

506
00:33:35,860 --> 00:33:38,700
but because of the people we had there and the things that were going on in those buildings

507
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:44,240
and basically being across the street from central command at the time, um, you know,

508
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,840
things, things were heightened.

509
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:51,240
Uh, but then going into the protective services portion of it where we're doing executive

510
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:57,500
protection, essentially, you know, the global war on terror had just kicked off.

511
00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:00,280
So everything was a threat.

512
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,680
Everyone was a threat.

513
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:09,440
Um, you know, we, we went from, you know, ID checks randomly at the front gate to having,

514
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:15,280
you know, humvees with M2 Brownings, you know, 50 caliber machine guns aimed down Del Mar

515
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,280
highway.

516
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,080
So it was a very big, uh, difference.

517
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,760
You know, we'd have machine gun positions on the top of central command facing the roadways

518
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,120
and ingress into the base.

519
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:31,040
So it was a very, very different feeling with the physical security side and on the, uh,

520
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,800
executive protection side, it was anywhere we went with the boss, you know, he was surrounded

521
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,080
by, by us.

522
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,880
And if something were to happen, boss gets out of there with, uh, the PSO and everybody

523
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,840
else stays in fights or fights their way out.

524
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,720
So it was, it was very, very different.

525
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:51,040
And uh, I broke my ankle and didn't get the opportunity to go down range with my teammates

526
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,240
when they first started going down.

527
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:58,660
And uh, you know, you're doing executive protection in Iraq and Afghanistan.

528
00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:04,880
You're going to these far out, uh, you know, operating bases where, you know, that's where

529
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,320
our operators live and play.

530
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,240
So you're in the middle of nowhere on a helicopter in the middle of the night and you land and

531
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,640
you know, they had their own experiences there, but it was, it was a whole different thing

532
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:15,640
for them.

533
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,160
And you know, I can, I can only live through their stories and listen to that, but it was,

534
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:26,720
it was quite a different level of service, different level of mission and a completely

535
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:30,760
different level of, uh, the whole game was different.

536
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:38,880
I mean, as, as a young airman or even a young NCO in big military, you are, um, you're charged

537
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,360
with whatever it is your rank allows you to do.

538
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,960
Well, when you're dealing with people in special operations, your rank is just what you get

539
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:46,960
paid.

540
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:47,960
Nobody cares.

541
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,780
That's what you get paid on the first and the 15th.

542
00:35:49,780 --> 00:35:50,780
What are your abilities?

543
00:35:50,780 --> 00:35:51,780
What are your skills?

544
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:55,160
It's much like ICS, the person in charge and the person running the show is the person

545
00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:00,000
most familiar with, uh, with the events that you're dealing with.

546
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,240
So for example, if I was in charge of a movement and one of the details, say we're moving around

547
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,800
Washington DC and I'm my part of the gig is this or this venue.

548
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,960
Well, I may have a Sergeant Major or a, you know, a Lieutenant Commander who's in charge

549
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,680
of the overall deal, but he's going to defer to me on that portion because that's my portion.

550
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,160
And it's all right, Doug, what are we doing?

551
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,720
Well, we're going to do this, this and this.

552
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,920
And that was it.

553
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:27,920
That was it.

554
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,760
You contributed what your, what your skills were and you were treated as a professional,

555
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,400
which is very, very different than going back into civilian law enforcement or the civilian

556
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,480
first responder disciplines, as you know.

557
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:46,600
The number of people I've had from all special operations, special forces communities internationally,

558
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,640
they all hold police and fire to the same level as themselves.

559
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:51,960
Now we don't believe that.

560
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:52,960
We're not told that.

561
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,120
We're not, you know, held to that standard by a lot of our own departments, but it makes

562
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:03,600
perfect sense when your favorite Ranger Delta, you know, SAS operator is overseas, who's

563
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,280
protecting their family?

564
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,600
We are.

565
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,840
So this is kind of an interesting perspective that you have.

566
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:16,200
I, I've always viewed my role in the fire service more like a special operations role.

567
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,600
I've always maintained my physical fitness at the highest, highest level that I can,

568
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:21,600
that James Gearing can.

569
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,840
I'm not saying I would ever be able to qualify as a special operations, you know, operator,

570
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:31,680
but in the fire service, so my education, the hands-on training, the physical fitness,

571
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,720
the mental practice, to me, it was all, you know, I mean, lives are at stake.

572
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:39,960
Like how much more of an important job can you have than police and fire domestically

573
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,080
when people are dying, usually when you're responding to a lot of times.

574
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:51,480
And so because of that, I've always felt like the way that special operations are led, are

575
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:58,160
organized is a much better model than, you know, in your, your example, big military.

576
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,640
What is your perspective of that?

577
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,160
No, I agree with you a hundred percent.

578
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,120
You know, I, I want to back up to what you said at first, you know, I'm amazed by this

579
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,680
cross reference of, of military and first responders.

580
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,480
You know, I don't know if it's because we're dismissive of our own contributions.

581
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,680
We're like, Oh man, this person was in the military and that's, you know, they're a veteran

582
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,200
there, you know, that that's so awesome.

583
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,960
And they, they sacrifice so many things and yet, you know, you'll have people in the military,

584
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,360
Oh, first responders, that's where it's at.

585
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:27,520
And this is why they're better.

586
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:33,080
And it's, I think it's, it's, it's very cool to have that mutual respect for one another.

587
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,880
And you know, I agree with you.

588
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,640
There is no greater calling than service.

589
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,400
And especially when the stakes are, well, a lot of the times unforgiving, you know,

590
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,400
lives are at stake.

591
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:50,200
And if you are, you know, if, if you are not at the top of your game as a paramedic, you

592
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,960
know, you mess up the conversion between milligrams, CCs or whatever it is that you guys do in that,

593
00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:05,920
that magic metric mix up, you could hurt somebody, you know, you know, I think being prepared

594
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,680
and doing as much training as you possibly can to, to better yourself physically, emotionally,

595
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:17,280
mentally, even though I didn't always do that and, and sharpening your skillsets.

596
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:23,520
Absolutely. That is, that is certainly the best course of action.

597
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,440
I think, and I agree with you a hundred percent, the way that special operations are led, enabling

598
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:39,840
your people to one feel safe to do their jobs, empowered to do their jobs, trusting your

599
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:45,080
personnel to do their jobs based on their skillsets, their training and their view of,

600
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,240
of what it is they're dealing with.

601
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:51,200
Micro managing somebody that's 200 miles away on target, telling them how they're going

602
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,040
to do something when they're seeing something completely different than you.

603
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,480
Well, that's just bad business.

604
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,680
I think anybody can, can see that, but yeah, it's done.

605
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:06,000
You know, there are people that will say, you know, in my old profession, you know,

606
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,360
I'm going to tell a district commander what they're going to do with their personnel.

607
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Well, you don't know who their personnel, who they are.

608
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,400
You've never met them.

609
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,360
You may know them because somebody told you something about them, but that district major

610
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,760
or captain sees them every day or at least five days a week during, you know, business

611
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:23,760
hours.

612
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:31,440
But they have a better, they have a better eye on what it is that that person does and

613
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,000
how they're going to fit in that team.

614
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,640
So yeah, I'm all about empowering people and providing them a safe space, treating them

615
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:40,640
like grownups.

616
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,720
I mean, if you're a first responder, let's say, I don't even know what starting salary

617
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:49,320
is now, but say you make $50,000 a year and I'm just using round numbers.

618
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,840
Well, there's an expectation that you're going to provide me $50,000 worth of service over

619
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,800
the course of that year.

620
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:01,740
I expect because you have a gun and a badge, you're mature enough for me to be able to

621
00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:06,080
trust you with the arrest authorities that you have the training and be able to implement

622
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,480
that stuff as you see fitters.

623
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:13,440
The situation dictates if I can't trust you to do that, then why do I need you?

624
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,680
Why do I have you?

625
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,520
You should be doing something else.

626
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,800
So yeah, I think the way that special operations treats their people and conducts business

627
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:28,080
absolutely is a more superior method of leadership and management.

628
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,360
Absolutely.

629
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,720
Well, we talked about this before, you know, when we were on the phone the other day, but

630
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:37,240
seeing as the kind of door is open now.

631
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:43,520
I have started to see the true leadership in some of the men and women that are leading

632
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:49,320
in the fire service that could be at the probationary firefighter level all the way through to chiefs.

633
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:55,960
But what I've also seen is this kind of glaring cowardice amongst some of them as well.

634
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,100
And I'll kind of use the perfect example.

635
00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:03,520
The firefighters, most of the firefighters in America are working 56 hours a week.

636
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,160
We have a recruitment crisis, so a lot of those men and women are being forced to work

637
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,540
an extra 24, you know, every week, two weeks, three weeks, whatever it ends up being.

638
00:42:11,540 --> 00:42:14,960
So now that's an 80, eight zero hour work week.

639
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,360
We have, you know, people dropping from cancer, autoimmune disease, heart disease, suicide,

640
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,720
overdose, alcoholism, you know, car accidents or deliberate car accidents, depending on,

641
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,160
you know, what's happening there.

642
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,800
And yet there's a lot of shoulder shrugging from people that work 40 hours, that go to

643
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,760
work, go home, you know, 5 p.m., go back to their families.

644
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,200
So what is happening in Florida, which is beautiful, and Pasco County is one of them,

645
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,080
is now there's this movement, which I've been banging this drum for eight years, and

646
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,960
I hope it was part of the reason.

647
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,880
Now some of these agencies are starting to go to a 42 hour work week, an extra 24 hours

648
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:57,460
between shifts to give these men and women recovery, which is now attracting recruits.

649
00:42:57,460 --> 00:43:02,240
So now you're filling these vacancies and therefore people aren't being forced as well.

650
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:07,280
There are like locally, for example, agencies that know all of this information and have

651
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,580
even had outside agencies do a study for them that they were part of, and they still refuse

652
00:43:12,580 --> 00:43:13,580
to change.

653
00:43:13,580 --> 00:43:14,880
And there's only one reason.

654
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:20,480
This department, for example, has buried four men from suicide in the last four years, and

655
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,360
they're still shrugging their shoulders.

656
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,680
So at this point now, we're talking about cowardice.

657
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,920
That's the only other explanation that you're too scared to advocate for your people because

658
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,360
you're okay.

659
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,260
So it doesn't affect you.

660
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:35,920
What is your perspective of cowardice?

661
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,440
Because this is a relatively new one that really kind of showed its head in COVID.

662
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:41,440
We saw the real leaders.

663
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,920
We saw the people that had the courage to stand up against vaccine mandates or simply

664
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,000
talk about improving the nation's health during that.

665
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,980
And then we saw the ones that were just puppets on either side of the spectrum.

666
00:43:52,980 --> 00:43:56,160
So I was so disappointed because these are people that you would assume would step up

667
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,560
and earn, as you said, their salary at that point.

668
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:05,600
What is your perspective in our profession's plural on cowardice in positions of leadership?

669
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,640
And I think that can include unions as well.

670
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,400
Oh my.

671
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,760
I should have been writing down notes as you went through this so I can get a spreadsheet

672
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,760
together.

673
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,560
I agree with you 100%.

674
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,440
I mean, if they have all the information, if it's been presented to them and they've

675
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:31,560
done nothing to fix that, then they're complicit in whatever's going on.

676
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,960
I don't want to say you may as well have held the gun, but you're certainly loading it or

677
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,280
you certainly didn't unload it.

678
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,920
Wow.

679
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,880
I think people in...

680
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,000
Oh my God.

681
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,080
Moral authority is bullshit if you haven't earned it.

682
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:57,400
If you don't have the characteristics needed for good ethical moral leadership, if you

683
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:06,280
don't have the moral courage to stand in front of everyone and say, basically, not today,

684
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:12,480
not my people, and take the beating for your people, then I don't know why you're taking

685
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,240
that paycheck.

686
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:18,280
Oh my God.

687
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,760
I think my garment is going to go off because my heart rate.

688
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,280
Yeah, it's getting up there.

689
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,400
It's an uncomfortable conversation, but it's at the point now where it needs to be had.

690
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:31,640
It's not uncomfortable for me.

691
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:38,680
It's aggravating because as you said, what other reason is there?

692
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,600
Back in my day, we did it this way.

693
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,080
First of all, saying that this is the way we always did things, those are coffin nails

694
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,440
to innovation.

695
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,680
You are killing innovation before it even starts.

696
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:54,080
It's not even to get the light of day.

697
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,640
Besides that, if it was working well the way we've always done it, why are people continuing

698
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,880
to die by suicide?

699
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,240
Why do we have people that spend their entire days off drinking?

700
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,600
Why is the divorce rate going through the roof?

701
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,640
Why are people leaving your organizations in droves for more money?

702
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,960
Well, the grass isn't always greener, but if I'm going to go over there and get kicked

703
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,560
in the nuts, I may as well do it for 10 grand more a year or be able to retire five years

704
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,320
earlier than what I'm dealing with here.

705
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,680
Now I know when I started in law enforcement, the organization that I worked for, that was

706
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,640
the only one that I applied for.

707
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:29,720
That's where I was going to work.

708
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,480
There was no plan B. It was all or nothing.

709
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,880
When I got there, that was it.

710
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,960
You couldn't have pried me away because I was proud of my organization, I'm proud of

711
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:46,000
the job we did, and I valued my career and the organization that I worked for until I

712
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,680
didn't.

713
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,640
I think that there is an obligation.

714
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:53,640
I don't think.

715
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,040
I absolutely believe that there is an obligation for people in positions of authority, whether

716
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,240
they're executives or whatever.

717
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:05,000
Administrators, I'll call them because not everybody in this position knows what leadership

718
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,880
is about or the privilege of leadership.

719
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:14,080
But the privilege of leadership to me is meaning that you absolutely have the obligation to

720
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,840
ensure that your people are whole, whatever that means.

721
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,640
If that is, I'm going to come in and work Christmas day as a district commander or as

722
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:31,620
a fire chief or battalion chief so I can give firefighter Snuffy, the one-year firefighter,

723
00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:35,480
the morning off so they can be home with their one-year-old as they open presents on Christmas

724
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:36,480
morning.

725
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,200
Nobody's going to make the chief suit up or run a hose line anywhere.

726
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,680
Come on, that's ridiculous.

727
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:50,560
But I just think the signal to everybody is, hey, look, I'm not any better or worse than

728
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:51,560
you.

729
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:52,560
I'm still capable of doing your job.

730
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,880
I know what your job looks like.

731
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,200
I've just been here longer.

732
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:58,360
Instead of, I'm better than that.

733
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,360
I don't have to do that.

734
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,360
I paid my dues.

735
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,160
What kind of bullshit is that?

736
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,760
I paid my dues.

737
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,720
You're getting paid more than I am, probably double what I'm getting paid and you don't

738
00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:10,960
do the job.

739
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:17,120
I don't understand that and it aggravates me when people get to a position and they

740
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,400
think that they have it licked.

741
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,680
My job is to sign paperwork and go to dinners and be home by 430.

742
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,760
It's not what you signed up.

743
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,480
When you went into the first responder discipline, whatever discipline it was, and you said,

744
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,640
my goal is to retire with my feet on the desk, which is much gold and as many stars on my

745
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,160
collar as I can do.

746
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:40,480
Okay, well, cool.

747
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:41,480
You've succeeded.

748
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,120
But if your job was to make a difference and serve people and serve your people who serve,

749
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:47,760
then you're failing.

750
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,160
You're failing miserably.

751
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,640
And cowardice, yeah.

752
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,560
Yeah.

753
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,240
That is cowardice that is not living up to your obligation.

754
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:05,040
Organizations, the culture in your organization is what you tolerate and what you celebrate.

755
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,840
And as a chief executive of an organization or the fire chief or police chief, county

756
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:14,000
commissioner, whatever it is, it is your job to set that culture.

757
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,840
It's your job to buy by word and by action to show everyone what leadership looks like,

758
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:25,320
what sacrifice looks like, what service looks like, what integrity, honor, courage.

759
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,520
You are to be the example, hard stop.

760
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:37,240
You don't delegate that to someone else, to a second.

761
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:38,240
You don't do that.

762
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,240
You are it.

763
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,760
And you make sure that you communicate that to your people and it's going outwards and

764
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,880
it's going up and down and you can see it everywhere you go.

765
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,560
I mean, you ask people now, what's your mission?

766
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,320
Well, as a firefighter, I put wet stuff on hot stuff and make steamy stuff.

767
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,120
Well, no, what is your mission?

768
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,120
What are we here to do?

769
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:57,120
What do firefighters do?

770
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:58,120
What do cops do?

771
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,120
What do paramedics do?

772
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:06,120
What do military, what do war fighters do?

773
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:07,120
And how do we do it?

774
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:08,120
How are we doing it?

775
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:14,800
Yeah, man, it's maddening and I wish I knew the answer and I wish I didn't get so charged

776
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,080
up talking about this.

777
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:21,600
But there are people in leadership positions that will never, ever, ever know the privilege

778
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,040
of leadership and I pity them for that.

779
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:30,600
They can make decisions that impact people, but they're not making decisions looking for

780
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,240
value for their personnel and the organization and their community.

781
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:38,720
There's a win that can be had all the way around and it's not swinging an ax and lopping

782
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:44,640
off heads of somebody who was at dinner too late or was late to their shift.

783
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,240
There's reasons for those things.

784
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:51,240
Look at your culpability in that and find out if you failed or came up short someplace

785
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:55,800
what you can do to fix that and have that translate into your organization.

786
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,040
I'm sorry that was a rant.

787
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,520
I tend to do that sometimes.

788
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,320
No, I opened the door and stoked the fire.

789
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,320
You're good.

790
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,400
Brother, it pisses me off because you are...

791
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:16,000
When I was in the military, I had poor examples of leadership, but when I got to the command

792
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,700
and my active reserve time, I had the greatest examples of leadership and I was very lucky

793
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:26,520
early on as a young airman, as a young non-commissioned officer to see what leadership looks like

794
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,580
and to have been mentored by some of the greats.

795
00:51:30,580 --> 00:51:36,280
By time at the sheriff's office, I had a couple of good ones, but I also suffered at the hands

796
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:44,760
of very poor leaders and was later used in several capacities to supplant poor leadership

797
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:51,880
when I started promoting into the supervisor ranks.

798
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:58,920
I had more examples of what not to do than I had of what to do and that's a sad state.

799
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:07,120
If I've got to be assigned to a squad or a platoon to overstep a weak sergeant, why does

800
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,880
that weak sergeant exist?

801
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,280
How did they become a sergeant?

802
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,360
We all know the answers to that.

803
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:22,480
We can even apply that to throw several names to that weak sergeant, to the weak fire officer.

804
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,480
It's sad that that exists because it's not just that decisions are being made slowly

805
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,640
or poor decisions are being made about finance or fiscal issues, but people's lives are being

806
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:37,600
impacted and you have one, an obligation, but also an opportunity to impact somebody's

807
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,760
life in a positive way.

808
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,720
To me, that's the privilege of leadership, knowing that in 20 years that I did something

809
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,760
for someone that when they are now in a position of leadership, they can say, hey, I know what

810
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,960
this looks like.

811
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,600
I know what it's like to be firefighter snuffy and needing an hour or two to watch my newborn

812
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,680
on Christmas morning.

813
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:04,400
I know what it looks like to have a wife that's working as much as she can and me doing as

814
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,800
much overtime as I can to put groceries on the table.

815
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,000
Let me get this kid a gift card to help back so he and his wife can have a nice date night.

816
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,520
Little things like that that make a difference that in 20 years from now, that kid is going

817
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,520
to say, hey, I remember this.

818
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,540
I know what leadership looks like.

819
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:23,960
They may not remember your name, but they're going to remember the example.

820
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:28,640
To me, that is why you become a leader.

821
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,200
That is the only reason you become a leader, to be able to improve someone else's life

822
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,080
to the one day they recognize that and do it for somebody else.

823
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,240
Anyway, I'm just going to sit back and have my coffee.

824
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,240
I'm off a break.

825
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:42,240
It's interesting.

826
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:43,240
A few things.

827
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:46,240
I'll give you time to sip on your caffeine.

828
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:51,320
Firstly, when it comes to fiscal responsibility, if you look, I'll take the fire service as

829
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:58,840
what I know, you look at the downstream effects of destroying your firefighter's health, the

830
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:04,160
overtime rates, the workman's comp claims, the recruits that you spend tens of thousands

831
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,840
training and they walk out the back door in a year or two years later, it is millions

832
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:14,840
and millions of dollars, especially if you're talking about a county.

833
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,640
They're screwing the taxpayer too.

834
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,280
They want to look good in a budget year.

835
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:24,640
They want to do it the path of least resistance and just pander to whoever's pulling their

836
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,880
puppet strings, but that's not providing good service.

837
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,320
It's not taking care of their people.

838
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,760
I always tell people, okay, if we're going to do first response that we do, then where

839
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,160
are the tax refunds?

840
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:39,800
Where's the money that you're giving back to the citizens?

841
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,760
Say, hey, we used to have four firefighters on engine.

842
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,680
Now we have three and that station's been browned out.

843
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,640
Oh, and the rescues that should be responding to your house, now they're doing into facility

844
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,840
transports for hospitals instead.

845
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,960
So why are we not giving some money back to the taxpayers if we reducing the level of

846
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:56,960
service?

847
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,120
So on every single level it is diminished and I'm going to address the public in a video

848
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:07,440
soon and illustrate this because they need to be educated and pissed off and demand,

849
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,680
which ultimately will be a better work week for our firefighters, which would resolve so

850
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:12,920
many of these issues.

851
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:20,800
I think just to touch on what you said and I've used the same thing, if what we did worked,

852
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:22,760
then our first responders would be healthy.

853
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,720
Of course we'd lose one or two to outside influences, whatever that was, but overall

854
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:29,620
we'd be a healthy community.

855
00:55:29,620 --> 00:55:32,440
Our marriages would be overall intact.

856
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:37,360
We would still have people lining up around the building to be a cop, a firefighter, a

857
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,240
paramedic, but it's not.

858
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:42,720
People ask me, oh, well, where's the data to show that this better work week is going

859
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:43,720
to be healthier?

860
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:50,360
I'm like, firstly, you're asking me to go do a study and say that a 56 hour work week

861
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,880
is less healthy than a 42.

862
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,040
If you're even asking that question, you're a fucking idiot.

863
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,040
So let's get that out of the way.

864
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,800
We're not even going to start this conversation.

865
00:55:58,800 --> 00:55:59,800
You're an idiot.

866
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:00,800
Exactly.

867
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,260
So secondly, let's reverse it.

868
00:56:03,260 --> 00:56:10,760
If what we have done has created cancer, suicide, overdose, divorce, pediatric illnesses, et

869
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,920
cetera, then equal and opposite is true.

870
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:19,600
You start changing these things, there is no way to go but improve.

871
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,640
So this is what's so maddening.

872
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:27,680
I was at a conference a few weeks ago and I led a panel on the 2472 and I had three

873
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,480
leaders, real leaders from departments that have made this change.

874
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,720
They talked about what the problem was, where the money was, how they did it, the results

875
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:42,000
they've seen and a chief defended who was the head of the entire, previously the head

876
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:46,400
of the entire Florida Cheese Association, who I didn't realize, defended the local one.

877
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,880
I told you it's refusing to do anything.

878
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,920
And I was like, so basically these men have shown you, and there's men in this case, how

879
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:59,960
they did it and you're more focused on defending apathy than you are actually saying, let's

880
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:01,080
change it.

881
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,680
And this other department is woefully understaffed and has suicides and cancers and all these

882
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,160
other ones too.

883
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,280
So this is the problem.

884
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,360
That's the coward right there.

885
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:15,480
If you are more intent on defending the status quo that is killing people, that is resulting

886
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:21,000
in you scraping at the bottom of the barrel or even offering fucking hiring bonuses for

887
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:26,400
a firefighter, when I was testing against thousands of them back in the day, then you

888
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:27,760
are the problem.

889
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,000
And so if you're not prepared to actually be part of the solution, then step the fuck

890
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,600
down and let someone with a set of balls or vagina, if you're a lady, and actually do

891
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:37,600
it.

892
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,280
Let's just say ovaries, inside and outside ovaries.

893
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,280
There we go.

894
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,160
Indian outing.

895
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,880
So, I can appreciate that.

896
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:53,200
And I thought of something and this may be off base, but when you go to one of these

897
00:57:53,200 --> 00:58:00,320
funerals and they take the flag off the coffin and they fold it and the ranking person that's

898
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:05,040
there hands it to the widow.

899
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:10,840
Say they died by suicide or cancer that, of course, one of these days you'll be able to

900
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,800
track it back to work related stuff.

901
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:20,760
And of course, the state will say, we're not paying that out because one time in 1985,

902
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,320
they didn't go on air when they went into a house fire.

903
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:24,320
So that's their fault.

904
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,080
However, the medical game is played nowadays.

905
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:37,280
But for me, if I was a man of character, being a man of character, if I had to lean over

906
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:43,600
or take a knee and hand that folded flag to a widow and say on behalf of a grateful, you

907
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:49,480
know, the whole speech, but instead had to say, this was preventable and I could have

908
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:56,160
stopped this, but I didn't.

909
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,120
I think the conversation ends there.

910
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,840
Are you the man or the woman that's going to tell the widow that you could have done

911
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,800
something about this, but you didn't?

912
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,480
How do you say that?

913
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:08,920
How do you sleep at night?

914
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,800
You fucking piece of, I mean, since we're cussing here and we're all friends, let me

915
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:20,760
tell you, buddy, that's just, you know, I've had friends that die by suicide.

916
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,960
I've known people who have had family members die by suicide.

917
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:31,480
They were in the fire service and in law enforcement, in the military.

918
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,680
I don't even think cowardice is a strong enough word for it, James.

919
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,440
I really don't.

920
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,200
It's just that is weakness on a level that transcends cowardice.

921
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,000
Evil.

922
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:48,720
I mean, you just, Jesus, what's the damage to you if you stand up in front of, you know,

923
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,400
the whole fire world and say, we've got to go to this schedule?

924
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,880
Not because James Gearing said so, fuck that guy.

925
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,000
We're going to do it because this is what we should be doing.

926
00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,560
This is the right thing.

927
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,400
Here's all the evidence and evidence, but damn, let's try it.

928
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,880
What's the worst thing that's going to happen to the person who says that?

929
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,560
They get told no, get put in firefighter jail.

930
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,960
You can't be a boss anymore.

931
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:18,520
So I mean, honestly, and I, I don't know enough about them.

932
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,840
I mean, I've, I've taught for fire service, but I don't know enough about the way that

933
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:22,840
your shifts are made up.

934
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:28,840
But you know, we're reading some of your books and listening to you speak about this, this

935
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,640
new shift in work weeks.

936
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:39,920
I was amazed at how many hours you guys actually work versus how many hours y'all get at home.

937
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:44,560
So if I'm at a fire executive and I go to a spouse and say, Hey, would your life be

938
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:50,000
better or worse if your spouse got an extra 14 hours at home?

939
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,360
I mean, that's, that's a ridiculous question.

940
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,960
I mean, what spouse wouldn't say, you mean an extra 14 hours for my spouse to be able

941
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:03,000
to unwind to offload some of the allostatic load that they've been carrying for 10, 15,

942
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,480
20, 30 years in the fire service of the first responder disciplines.

943
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,240
And we can give an extra 14 hours a week back to the family, back to my kids to have mom

944
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,720
or dad.

945
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:19,160
That's just, I don't even, I still, man, I don't even know why this is a conversation.

946
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,480
This is, this is lunacy that is, has not changed.

947
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:23,480
Absolutely.

948
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:24,480
Yeah.

949
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,600
I mean, it's, it's infuriating.

950
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:27,600
This is the thing as well.

951
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,880
It's just, it's going back to, if you listen to anyone talking about nutrition, talking

952
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:38,400
about exercise, talking about mindfulness, it all comes back to the pillars of health,

953
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:42,600
you know, eat through the way it was grown naturally, or, or if you, if you're a meat

954
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:48,040
eater than an animal that wasn't factory farmed and fed full of hormones and antibiotics,

955
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,920
get outside, you know, get your feet and hands dirty in the earth, you know, exercise, have

956
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:53,920
community.

957
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,080
I mean, they're all such basic tenants and every single person, whether it's the strength

958
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,200
and conditioning world, the mental health world, the nutrition world, they all say the

959
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,200
same thing.

960
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:09,120
If you are not sleeping, then all that other stuff kind of falls to the wayside.

961
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:13,680
So all we're trying to do is get back to the fact that, Hey, our cops, our corrections

962
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:21,000
officers, our dispatchers, our firefighters are awake when you are asleep safely in your

963
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,000
beds.

964
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:26,280
So all we're saying is can they have the same work week, work week as you?

965
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:31,080
Ideally, I think it should be even less down the road, but let's just say now 42 hours

966
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,400
a week, you're just saying, can we have the same?

967
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,720
And this is what's so crazy is people look at you and go, Oh, that'll never happen.

968
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:38,720
Where's the money?

969
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,680
We have a recruitment, you know, it's just, Oh, let me show you why this wouldn't work

970
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:46,200
rather than second step back and go, yeah, why are we working that many hours when everyone's

971
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,360
asleep and we make life and death decisions?

972
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:54,400
I mean, we just had a horrendous train versus fire truck accident here in Florida.

973
01:02:54,400 --> 01:03:00,520
And I have, you know, James Gearing, I was not there, but I wonder if sleep deprivation

974
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,360
was part of the poor decision making process at that moment.

975
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,240
It might not have been, it might have been someone that just spent three months on a

976
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,500
massive vacation and everyone was well rested.

977
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:15,500
But if you look at the impact of sleep deprivation on decision making, it would make someone

978
01:03:15,500 --> 01:03:20,220
maybe make a poor judgment, you know, call with that the same as in law enforcement,

979
01:03:20,220 --> 01:03:24,840
the guy that shoots the kid reaching for his driving license and they vilify that person.

980
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,920
And you know, it was a tragedy, but as anyone said, well, how many shifts did he work or

981
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:29,020
she work?

982
01:03:29,020 --> 01:03:30,760
You know, when, when did they last sleep?

983
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,720
You know, I mean, all these other compounding elements.

984
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:38,560
So just looking at the holistic human being in the uniform and giving them the tenants

985
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:44,800
of health, I mean, that's like, you know, it's like a uniform unicorn shit and rainbows.

986
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:46,760
Like, oh, that'll never happen.

987
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:47,760
And this is the problem.

988
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:53,400
We got to debunk our own mythology about this great shift that we have because we don't,

989
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:54,400
we do not.

990
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,800
And if it works, we wouldn't have this crisis that we have now.

991
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,240
You know, I have made the joke of firefighters.

992
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:01,240
They've got the life.

993
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:02,240
Everybody's got a side hustle.

994
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:07,200
Either they do real estate or, um, you know, have a lawn service or a pool company or something

995
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:08,200
like that.

996
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:09,200
They've got a side hustle.

997
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,200
Those guys that have all the time in the world, you know, 24 on 48 off.

998
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:13,920
No, they really don't.

999
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,960
And, you know, looking at it from the lay person, it looks like the perfect deal is

1000
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,240
like, man, I wish I didn't pass the test for, for being a cop.

1001
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:23,280
I could have been a firefighter, my fallback job.

1002
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,080
I've got to take a shot of the fire service.

1003
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,480
Nobody else is going to make fun of them, but, but cops and firefighters have that,

1004
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,480
have that lifestyle with each other.

1005
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,080
Um, but I always thought that that was the greatest, but you know, looking into your

1006
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,560
work and what they actually do and having to do a double and force over time.

1007
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,640
And, and that is, that's unconscionable.

1008
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:44,640
How can you do that?

1009
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,720
Again, you're making life and death decisions.

1010
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:52,200
If you're asleep at the switch or you're a second, you know, too late or second, you

1011
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:57,840
know, too early, it's just bad things are going to happen.

1012
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:03,180
Um, they've done studies and I wish I could remember where I've, I found the research

1013
01:05:03,180 --> 01:05:07,600
or heard it, but they've done studies that people that are sleep deprived, um, based

1014
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:13,160
on, you know, working overnight shifts and 24 hour shifts, they are cognitively the,

1015
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:18,680
the cognitive, um, equivalent of being legally drunk.

1016
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,880
And I'm sure I butchered that, but the concept is there.

1017
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:26,900
If you're not sleeping and make it worse, you're not sleeping well for years.

1018
01:05:26,900 --> 01:05:29,160
Your decision making is not going to be what it is.

1019
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:34,920
I mean, how many responders and first responders and military personnel they're listening right

1020
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:35,920
now.

1021
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:39,400
And I hope there's people nodding their head in weeks when this comes out.

1022
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:44,000
Um, that when they're reading something either for work or something for pleasure, that they

1023
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,280
have to read that same page at the same line three and four times because they're just

1024
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:48,280
not getting it.

1025
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:55,360
I mean, I've got sticky notes and stuff all over the place just to tab and keep track

1026
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,840
of, of, of what it is that I'm trying to do.

1027
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:04,040
I found myself now that I'm retired, I've been able to, to treat myself better and to

1028
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,480
sleep and regulate all of those things.

1029
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,960
Um, and I, but there was a point where I was finding a hard time, you know, looking for

1030
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:12,960
words.

1031
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:13,960
Like, I know what that word is.

1032
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:15,400
I know what I'm trying to explain, but I can't explain it.

1033
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,520
And you know, I'm telling a story to my wife and she's looking at me like, what?

1034
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:21,720
I'm thinking, God, why aren't you getting this?

1035
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,320
I'm speaking English.

1036
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,680
Um, you know, of course I don't say that and I try not to have that look on my face, but

1037
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:32,400
you know, I have to explain it several times because I'm not communicating well.

1038
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:39,200
Um, yeah, man, the, the downstream impacts, uh, like you said, uh, the fiscal responsibility,

1039
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,800
uh, making sure our people are whole, what they take home to their family, what they

1040
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,280
bring into work, the cancers, the suicide rates, the divorce rate, people will be so

1041
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:52,120
much better if they were able to get sleep.

1042
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:53,680
My life has changed.

1043
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:59,080
My health has even changed, uh, by being able to regulate my sleep more and it's still comparatively

1044
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:03,920
what I should be getting it shit, but man, it is so much better than what it was.

1045
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:09,600
Um, in fact, the lack of sleep and not taking care of myself, uh, one not recognizing it.

1046
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:14,720
And then when I recognized it, refusing to get help because I wasn't weak, I can outrun

1047
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:15,720
this.

1048
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:16,720
I could do it by myself.

1049
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,440
There was my downfall.

1050
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:23,120
So, yeah, everything you've said is absolutely correct.

1051
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,680
And I don't have the answer as to why people aren't taking action.

1052
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:31,840
Well, I want to go back to your entry into the civilian law enforcement side.

1053
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,520
And then obviously we'll walk through to 2019.

1054
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:41,360
Um, as you progress through, what was some of the key roles that you held and then what

1055
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,920
would be, you know, what we would call career calls that you had?

1056
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,880
Well, I first started off as a patrolman.

1057
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,040
So we all started and, um, I was very lucky.

1058
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:57,520
I had some very, very good sergeants and corporals, some strong mentors early on.

1059
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:02,800
And I came with, you know, five years of military experience already.

1060
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,360
So I was a little bit more mature, even though I was 24 years old, I was a little more mature

1061
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,560
than the regular recruits walking in at the time.

1062
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:15,520
And having that experience and a little bit of more maturity, I became a field training

1063
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,200
officer at 16 months on.

1064
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:20,600
Um, I picked up things very, very quickly.

1065
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:21,600
And I was very passionate.

1066
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:22,600
I was very aggressive.

1067
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:28,120
And while aggressive is not a good term to use in 2024, it was very active in what I

1068
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:29,120
did.

1069
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:30,520
Um, I loved it.

1070
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,000
It was, I was it.

1071
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,480
I was all in.

1072
01:08:33,480 --> 01:08:38,800
And I think our profession requires us to be all in to an extent.

1073
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,800
Uh, again, we're making life and death decisions.

1074
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:43,600
So you have to be paying attention.

1075
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:48,840
So, um, field training is something that I really, really enjoyed those aha moments when

1076
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,880
you're, you're teaching recruit, uh, some, you know, the skills that are ultimately going

1077
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:57,320
to save their lives for someone else's to see that that switch turn on and then to,

1078
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,080
to get it and demonstrate it.

1079
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:04,160
Um, it's, it's a remarkable experience and I'd loved the training aspect of it.

1080
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:09,720
Um, in, on nine 11, I was recalled to active duty for three years.

1081
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,440
So for 37 months, I was away from the sheriff's office.

1082
01:09:12,440 --> 01:09:18,720
So two and a half years into my career with the office, I got pulled away for three years

1083
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:20,440
when I came back.

1084
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:23,560
Um, I was, I was reinvigorated.

1085
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:30,160
Uh, I had sharpened my, uh, my learning abilities, my leadership abilities.

1086
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:39,840
Um, I took, I took the entire, um, professional development series of FEMA courses for ICS.

1087
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:44,480
So I taught myself incident command while I was convalescing over my broken ankle post

1088
01:09:44,480 --> 01:09:45,480
nine 11.

1089
01:09:45,480 --> 01:09:50,440
Um, so when I returned to the sheriff's office, I knew, you know, everything there was to

1090
01:09:50,440 --> 01:09:55,440
know about the new department of Homeland security, uh, anti-terrorism was my, was my

1091
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:56,440
thing.

1092
01:09:56,440 --> 01:10:01,320
And, uh, now I knew the, the fire service side of incident command, so I could speak

1093
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,160
a lot of different languages and it was quite the enigma at the time, especially in law

1094
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:06,440
enforcement.

1095
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:10,400
And uh, I came back to the sheriff's office and said, I want to go back to being a field

1096
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:11,400
training officer.

1097
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,480
And they said, you've been gone for so long.

1098
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:14,480
Let's see what you got.

1099
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:17,320
Next thing you know, I'm a field training officer again.

1100
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:23,640
Um, tried out for the bomb squad and made the team my first time through.

1101
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:28,840
And the reason I decided to go EOD or the bomb squad was, uh, I was very, very interested

1102
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:29,840
in terrorism.

1103
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:34,800
Uh, it had been since the early nineties because of my, my role in force protection in the

1104
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:36,240
air force.

1105
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,560
And uh, it seemed to be very front and center at the time, you know, post nine 11, even

1106
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,480
though we've been having issues with terrorism since the sixties, but let's focus on what

1107
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:48,600
everybody believes is nine 11 is when it all happened.

1108
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:56,280
So I knew that at the time, 85% of all terror attacks, uh, occurred with the use of explosives.

1109
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:00,760
And if I wasn't a bomb tech, I'm, I'm missing 85% of the work.

1110
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:06,520
So I made the team and went to the bomb school and redstone arsenal and it was a bomb tech

1111
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:07,520
on our team.

1112
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:13,760
I was on the team for seven years and the bomb tech for about six of those, um, all

1113
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:15,680
the time that was a part-time bomb team.

1114
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:21,960
So I was learning bomb stuff and, uh, and also a field training deputy and, uh, went

1115
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:27,080
to the training division and ran an academy course, a class through the academy and, uh,

1116
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:28,840
was able to mentor them.

1117
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:36,040
And, um, so yeah, bomb tech field training officer, instructor for specialized and advanced

1118
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,080
law enforcement courses.

1119
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,760
Then, um, I got a job on the side.

1120
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,520
My side hustle was teaching for Homeland security.

1121
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:49,080
So I was a contractor for SAIC and L3 and traveled the country teaching their, their

1122
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:50,080
road shows.

1123
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:55,000
And, uh, you may have gone to or, or known people that have gone to the center for domestic

1124
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,680
preparedness and Anniston, Alabama, uh, the live agent, uh, training facility.

1125
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,900
I was an instructor up there on my days off.

1126
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:04,640
So I really enjoyed that.

1127
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:09,800
I did that for about eight years and, um, back at the sheriff's office, I started promoting

1128
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:18,200
through the ranks and, um, was a corporal in patrol and, um, had a great time there.

1129
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:24,200
Uh, leadership was, was fantastic because it, it married my ability to, um, to speak

1130
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:26,640
to people and to mentor people and to train people.

1131
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,400
It was, it was the perfect thing for me.

1132
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:30,200
It was everything that I wanted.

1133
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:36,240
Um, not from a position, a position of authority position or positional authority, but to be

1134
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:42,400
able to impact folks and be able to use, uh, you know, use that positional authority to,

1135
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:46,240
to positively impact the people that I was working with.

1136
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:53,640
Um, yeah, spent, uh, the majority of my career in patrol and, uh, was promoted to sergeant,

1137
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:57,680
went to the Homeland security division and ran several of the units there in the division

1138
01:12:57,680 --> 01:13:02,520
and ultimately made lieutenant and went back out to patrol in the midnight shift, um, had

1139
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,400
a platoon here in the Northwest portion of the County.

1140
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:11,640
And it was, um, the best thing that I ever did was the thing I was doing at the time.

1141
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:18,160
I really enjoyed my roles, but, uh, I wasn't satisfied with, with that.

1142
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,920
You know, as we said earlier, that, that bar continued to move.

1143
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,200
I was looking to fill a hole and I didn't know what it looked like.

1144
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,680
I never thought about being in a leadership position until I found myself in leadership

1145
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:28,680
positions.

1146
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:37,240
And, um, yeah, that was 2018 when I got promoted and sent back to midnight shifts as a lieutenant

1147
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:38,240
and it was wonderful.

1148
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:39,600
I had a great platoon.

1149
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:41,760
I had great sergeants and corporals working for me.

1150
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:43,800
The deputies were just outstanding.

1151
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:49,600
And, um, you know, you, you have that team that every once in a while during a career,

1152
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:51,120
you may find it once or even twice.

1153
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:56,360
If you're lucky enough, that one group that just, man, it's, it's it.

1154
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,640
That is, that is the place to be.

1155
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:03,560
You wish you could claim responsibility for putting together such a group of people and

1156
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,000
it just happened organically and it's wonderful.

1157
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:09,480
And I had that with my teammates.

1158
01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:15,560
I had that as a, as a, as a younger deputy and I had it again as a lieutenant and, uh,

1159
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:20,040
man, it was just remarkable, remarkable people, wonderful people.

1160
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,240
And I just, I really, really loved being there with them.

1161
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,040
So that brings us into 2018, 2019.

1162
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,080
So what about career calls during that time?

1163
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,360
Did you have any interesting ones as a EOD and then were there any others on the street

1164
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:35,360
as well?

1165
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:37,360
Oh my God.

1166
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:41,800
Um, well, the, the agency I worked for, it's, it's easy.

1167
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:45,040
We've battered around it all the time, but the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office here

1168
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,880
in Tampa, very, very big agency.

1169
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:53,120
Uh, at the time it was the 12th Largest Agency and, uh, my last full year we did over a million

1170
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,640
calls for service or pieces of activity.

1171
01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:01,400
And when I left in 23 in July, we were on pace to smash that.

1172
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:08,720
So very, very busy, uh, as a deputy, you know, the fatal car crashes, um, stabbings, shootings,

1173
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:12,000
fistfights, you know, everything that you would see in a major metropolitan area.

1174
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,440
We had it, um, you know, crazy stuff, people going out in the woods because they want to

1175
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:18,160
hunt alligators.

1176
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:21,320
Well bro, you're, you're from Connecticut.

1177
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:22,880
You don't know anything about Florida woods.

1178
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:27,080
So we're going to come looking for you unless you get eaten by a gator first.

1179
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:31,440
Um, just stupid calls, tragic calls.

1180
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:35,600
Um, you know, I wrote about some of the, uh, the vignettes in my book.

1181
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:41,840
Um, some of the ones that were not more impactful, but lessons that I had learned, things that

1182
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,080
I wish I had done better.

1183
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:49,840
Um, things calls that we didn't talk about and still didn't talk about until like literally

1184
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:57,480
at one of the cases, the day I retired, uh, you know, 24 years after it occurred, um,

1185
01:15:57,480 --> 01:16:02,000
on the bomb squad, those weren't, you know, as tragic, those were more rock and roll and

1186
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:04,800
fun because the SWAT guys were afraid of them.

1187
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:08,040
And the SWAT guys, those are the brave and the bold, you know?

1188
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,520
Uh, but they won't be anywhere near you.

1189
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:14,920
If you either have a bomb on your chest or you're, uh, you know, as a breacher, they,

1190
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,920
they want you away from, from them.

1191
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:22,120
And of course, if it's a suspicious package, they don't want anything to do with it.

1192
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:26,040
But, um, you know, I've done hand entries, we've done the white powder calls when we

1193
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:31,640
think it's a biological, um, you know, picking up old military ordinance.

1194
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:40,840
Uh, I've disrupted half dozen pipe bombs ish.

1195
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:47,720
It was, it was a lot of fun because it's just you and a suit, um, that they say can take,

1196
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:52,200
you know, a blast from, you know, five pounds of, of, uh, black powder.

1197
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,640
But yeah, I don't want to be in it when it goes off.

1198
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:58,160
But, uh, now that would, those were incredible moments.

1199
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:03,080
The, um, you know, to, to make the long walk, to deal with something that somebody left

1200
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:04,360
there to hurt other people.

1201
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:06,280
And, and you're the one that's taken care of it.

1202
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:12,280
Those were, uh, those were some pretty awesome moments.

1203
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:15,960
What about from the concussion side?

1204
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:17,200
Were you exposed to blast?

1205
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:22,640
Cause I mean, as, as we talk before we hit record, Chris free is, uh, is the author of

1206
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:28,480
the operator syndrome element and, and that kind of, you know, subconcussive or CTE or

1207
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:34,040
head trauma or whatever, you know, elements someone has, if you are exposed to some sort

1208
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:41,800
of, um, uh, TBI element as a breacher, as an EOD, as a, as a regular, uh, military member,

1209
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:43,840
that can be the kind of the other elephant in the room.

1210
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:47,120
You're trying to go down these psychological routes and there's a physiological element

1211
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:48,120
too.

1212
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:49,120
Yes.

1213
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:50,120
I'm, I'm glad you brought that up.

1214
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:54,440
I try to work Chris free and operator syndrome into everything that I talk about.

1215
01:17:54,440 --> 01:18:00,280
Um, his book was groundbreaking for me in the, in the study, but to answer your question,

1216
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:01,280
yes.

1217
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:07,640
Um, you know, in the military and security forces, um, you know, we, we have heavy weapons

1218
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:12,840
teams, you know, they have the heavy machine guns, the two forties, the M twos, you know,

1219
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,360
the 50 cal, uh, the Mark 19 mortar teams.

1220
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:19,680
Uh, we set claymore store hand grenades, the whole thing.

1221
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:21,680
And I never really thought anything about that stuff.

1222
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:25,200
That was just fun because I'm a kid throwing grenades and you know, Daisy chain and claymore.

1223
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:26,200
That was really neat.

1224
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:29,120
Um, you know, everybody wants to shoot machine guns.

1225
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:31,320
So that's what we did.

1226
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:36,120
Um, you know, firing rockets and so I was all cool.

1227
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:40,440
But when I got to the bomb squad doing the demo work, I just thought the overpressure

1228
01:18:40,440 --> 01:18:47,440
was so cool and, um, naively thought it was so cool.

1229
01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:51,600
You know, we would do, um, breaching interior and exterior breaching.

1230
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:53,040
There's a difference in the size of the charge.

1231
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:57,320
You can use an overpressure, but, um, without getting into the science, which is rusty in

1232
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:04,600
my head, you know, you have explosives measured out in grains and, you know, grains per foot.

1233
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:07,400
So everything is very, very, um, it's measured.

1234
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:12,840
It's very precise because you want the door or the entryway to, to breach thusly.

1235
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:17,360
Um, so you don't want to put, you know, a monkey fist of C four and a clump on a wall

1236
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:18,720
and see what's going to happen.

1237
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,520
That's just bad business.

1238
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:23,240
But and there were standoff with a shield, without a shield, with a blanket and everything

1239
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:24,240
else like that.

1240
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:28,800
And you know, one of the things that we didn't have, uh, well, hearing pro, we, we got hearing

1241
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:34,640
protection at some point in my tenure on the team, but, uh, we didn't have a tape measure.

1242
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:39,640
So you know, we set up a charge on a door and yeah, this looks like three feet ish.

1243
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:44,000
So you know, you stack up and you blast the door, everybody makes their entry.

1244
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:45,000
It's good.

1245
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:46,000
So, okay.

1246
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:47,000
That's number one of the day.

1247
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:53,360
Well, at number 15 of the day, you know, taking over pressure like that, um, it's like a full

1248
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:54,960
body punch in the nose.

1249
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:58,800
If anybody's ever been punched in the nose before you get that, holy shit, you know,

1250
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:01,280
I just felt my teeth rattle.

1251
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,600
Um, that's what happens when overpressure hits you.

1252
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:08,920
And I've been so close to, to breaches that when we're done, you know, we're, we're picking

1253
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:14,560
hydrogel that the adhesive that we use for our charges to stick on the surface, you know,

1254
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:18,360
we're picking that pieces of that off my helmet and off my, my goggles, my shield.

1255
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:22,120
And you know, there was an ant pile on the ground next to the door jam and now I've got

1256
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:23,120
ants all over me.

1257
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:30,000
So if I'm close enough to get ant blowback and, uh, and hydrogel blowback from a blast,

1258
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,320
I'm probably too close.

1259
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:37,360
And there have been days where I've left either demo training or preaching training or even

1260
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:43,440
days on the range shooting outdoors or indoors where, um, one particular day we were doing

1261
01:20:43,440 --> 01:20:49,760
breaching and, uh, we went through a decommissioned housing project and any door or window that

1262
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:53,080
was in there was gone by the time we were done.

1263
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:55,000
And I drove home.

1264
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,320
I don't remember the drive home.

1265
01:20:57,320 --> 01:20:58,320
I don't remember.

1266
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,360
And this was rush hour traffic on I four and two 75.

1267
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:03,560
I don't remember the drive home.

1268
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:06,960
Um, I don't remember taking a shower.

1269
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:10,000
I don't remember cleaning my gear or even going to bed.

1270
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:15,440
And I woke up the next day feeling like a combination between a truck hit me and a flu.

1271
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:20,720
Um, and I just wrote it off as I was dehydrated as I did every single time I went home like

1272
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:21,720
that.

1273
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:22,720
Oh, Hey, I threw up again.

1274
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:24,720
No, it's because I'm dehydrated.

1275
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:29,080
You know, I never really thought anything about blast overpressures, even though I was

1276
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:33,880
aware of the shearing effects of overpressure on our tissues, but I never, never thought

1277
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:38,760
about TBI until I read, uh, Chris's book.

1278
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,800
And then of course later got into the VA system and healthcare and like, Hey, what about TBI?

1279
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:46,760
I'm like, Oh yeah, I did this in the military, but no hard parachute openings.

1280
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:48,120
I wasn't blown up in the military.

1281
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,120
None of this stuff.

1282
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:50,600
Like, well, what about your regular life?

1283
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:52,640
Well, yeah, I did all this stupid shit.

1284
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:53,640
So, okay.

1285
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:54,640
Minor TBI.

1286
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:55,640
I'm like, well, what does that mean?

1287
01:21:55,640 --> 01:22:00,240
Well, you know, the physiological effects and having read his book, you know, you're

1288
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:06,080
well aware of the effects that that have on our cognition, our sleep, our endocrine system,

1289
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,880
all of the systems are connected to the brain.

1290
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:15,400
And if you start getting bashed in the head, you know, or getting choked out in jujitsu,

1291
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:16,920
you're causing damage.

1292
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:25,840
So being unaware of that stuff then, but acutely aware of it now, man, I did some dumb shit.

1293
01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:30,000
But you know, the funny thing is I don't know that I would have done it any other way because

1294
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:34,800
it is kind of cool to be standing in a cloud of dust and when the dust settles, there's

1295
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,440
a big hole in the wall that you needed to hold to be.

1296
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:39,760
So that was still kind of cool.

1297
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:40,760
I don't know if it's good.

1298
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,360
Yeah, I'm not so good at math now, but that was kind of cool.

1299
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:45,360
Yeah.

1300
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:46,360
Yeah.

1301
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:50,760
I mean, I look back at some of the hard sparring I did in the past, you know, there's still

1302
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:51,760
a plus.

1303
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:53,080
It's like, okay, I'm not a giant pussy.

1304
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:57,560
I can at least take a beating, but did it serve me well down the road?

1305
01:22:57,560 --> 01:22:58,560
Probably not.

1306
01:22:58,560 --> 01:22:59,560
You know what I mean?

1307
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,200
I can reflect and not be completely guilty or feel like an idiot.

1308
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,400
I'm trying to make biscuits, but I'm reading the instructions five times.

1309
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,120
Is it 12 minutes or 13 minutes?

1310
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:08,120
Damn it.

1311
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:09,120
That blast over pressure.

1312
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:10,120
Exactly.

1313
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:16,320
So, well then walk me through the emotional journey then, you know, were there any highs

1314
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:21,520
and lows earlier in your career or did it kind of crescendo around 2019?

1315
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,160
You know, not that I was aware of.

1316
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,400
Again, man, I was always forward.

1317
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:28,600
Always forward.

1318
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:29,600
What's the next thing?

1319
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:34,160
You know, every day brought promise of something new and something exciting.

1320
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:35,760
You know, what was the next call?

1321
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:37,520
Can I be the hero on this next call?

1322
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:40,800
Can I be an example to another troop?

1323
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:41,800
What's better?

1324
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:42,800
What's the next thing?

1325
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:46,200
So I never really took time to take a knee and take any of that stuff in.

1326
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:49,640
I never, as they say, sat with it.

1327
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:51,800
It was always time to go to the next call.

1328
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:54,520
I was very, very good at compartmentalizing.

1329
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,800
I mean, I was the champ at compartmentalizing.

1330
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:02,760
I could turn that stuff off in a heartbeat and just move to the next one.

1331
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:05,040
So much so that I was used as the enforcer.

1332
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:08,120
If a door needed to be kicked, I was the guy.

1333
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,840
If there was an armed subject, I was the guy.

1334
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:15,880
You know, bomb call out is an opportunity to get into the suit in August.

1335
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,240
I'd get the call and, you know, I would tell the dispatcher, wait 20 minutes before you

1336
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:23,120
call my number two, because that would ensure that I would get there first and get in the

1337
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:24,120
suit.

1338
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:26,520
So it was always go, go, go, go, go.

1339
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:33,080
And I never took time until the wheels fell off.

1340
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:38,320
So early on in my career, I didn't really become aware of it.

1341
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:40,120
I knew that there was something off.

1342
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:43,640
You know, I would get depressed generally around July.

1343
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,040
So I completely dismissed the seasonal affective disorder.

1344
01:24:46,040 --> 01:24:48,200
Well, it's July is not Christmas time.

1345
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:50,920
So I'm sad and depressed for another reason.

1346
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,000
Maybe it's because I need to find another course to go to.

1347
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:58,640
I need to find something to make me happy.

1348
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:06,240
I never, I paid attention to all the things that I should not have been paying attention

1349
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:07,240
to.

1350
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:11,320
You know, the rented admiration that comes along with professional prowess.

1351
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:15,840
I know that's a lot of words, but I was a shit at home because I was chasing a brass

1352
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,880
ring that didn't fucking matter.

1353
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:20,040
It didn't matter then.

1354
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:22,980
And it sure as shit didn't matter the day I walked out.

1355
01:25:22,980 --> 01:25:27,040
That stuff is rented and they take it back from you the day that you leave.

1356
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:28,320
Nobody gives a shit.

1357
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:31,280
I think that should be the message of this entire thing.

1358
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:38,820
You serve and you do so much and you're looking for the admiration or the attaboy that even

1359
01:25:38,820 --> 01:25:41,560
if it comes, it doesn't matter.

1360
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:43,040
It's about what you're seeing in the mirror.

1361
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:44,240
And I've learned that.

1362
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:47,160
I'm still learning that.

1363
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:51,780
You know, I tried to outrun all the trauma, all the physical injuries, all the physiological

1364
01:25:51,780 --> 01:25:58,640
things that were going on that I did not connect until Chris Free's study.

1365
01:25:58,640 --> 01:25:59,840
That you can outrun all that stuff.

1366
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:01,240
You can keep those boxes closed.

1367
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:06,000
You can compartmentalize, but at some time you're going to be all alone.

1368
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:09,960
And in the quiet, every bit of that shit's going to come back and you're forced to stare

1369
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:11,840
at yourself in a mirror.

1370
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:21,000
And man, if the other stuff wasn't enough to break you, that moment will be.

1371
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:22,000
It will be.

1372
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,000
And for me, the wheels had come off.

1373
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:29,360
I had been telling my troops for years, probably a decade, having the conversations that it's

1374
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,120
okay not to be okay.

1375
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:36,280
Deal with these things as they come up, come speak to me, come speak to one of the sergeants.

1376
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,720
And I did those things in earnest because I knew that people were going to be having

1377
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:42,000
problems with things and as they should.

1378
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,840
I mean, these are abnormal situations.

1379
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:48,040
But I always thought that I was stronger than that.

1380
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:49,760
I bought into the stigma.

1381
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:50,760
I'm not weak.

1382
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:52,560
I can control my shit.

1383
01:26:52,560 --> 01:27:00,320
This is just a matter of hydrate, take a moat turn, go for a longer run.

1384
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:02,440
I was part of the problem, honestly.

1385
01:27:02,440 --> 01:27:06,120
I would listen to you if you came to me and of course I would be empathetic about it,

1386
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:08,080
but I didn't have a problem.

1387
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:09,520
But I was the biggest hypocrite in the room.

1388
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:14,320
I would have those conversations and just subconsciously now looking back on it, I was

1389
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:19,120
praying somebody would raise their hand just to give me an opportunity to talk about myself.

1390
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:27,480
Man, it was an awful place to be, awful place to be.

1391
01:27:27,480 --> 01:27:36,640
So yeah, when it all comes crashing down, it's too much to deal with at one time.

1392
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:39,960
Yeah, that brings us into 2019.

1393
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:44,600
What you said about sleep is absolutely correct.

1394
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:46,400
And I don't need a study to tell me that.

1395
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:48,720
I lived it.

1396
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:53,120
When I became a lieutenant, I went to the midnight shift and I adjusted to the midnight

1397
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:54,120
shift.

1398
01:27:54,120 --> 01:28:01,440
The work was not an issue or anything like that, but about six months into it, well,

1399
01:28:01,440 --> 01:28:06,680
probably about seven or eight months into it, I was starting to feel the effects of

1400
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:08,480
not sleeping and I was sleeping even less.

1401
01:28:08,480 --> 01:28:13,040
I was sleeping between an hour and a half and maybe three hours a day.

1402
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:21,240
And that was days on and days off, whether it was the, as Dr. Freeh says, the combined

1403
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:29,920
allostatic load of all those years of service and tried to outrun our movement and not being

1404
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:31,800
able to sleep.

1405
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:37,280
When you're able to sleep, you can fend off a lot of the things that generally that you

1406
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:38,280
experience.

1407
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:43,760
When you're not sleeping, you're not managing shit, nothing.

1408
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:49,280
I started task shedding my administrative duties at work, my household duties here at

1409
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:50,280
home.

1410
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:55,200
I say that I was a shit dad, but shit dads don't say that.

1411
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,000
Good dads will say they're shit dads, but shit dads don't even realize they're shit

1412
01:28:58,000 --> 01:28:59,000
dads.

1413
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:00,660
They're just shit dads.

1414
01:29:00,660 --> 01:29:02,800
So I give myself some grace there.

1415
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:07,000
I wasn't present.

1416
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,040
The things were just falling apart, man.

1417
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:10,040
I couldn't manage.

1418
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:14,720
There was no operational shortfall at work.

1419
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:22,040
No one at work had any idea that I was suffering, but I, yeah, nobody knew.

1420
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:23,800
I was very, very good at hiding.

1421
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:28,160
Like an injured animal in the wild, you don't limp because if you limp, then you become

1422
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:29,160
food.

1423
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,020
So I didn't act like food.

1424
01:29:31,020 --> 01:29:32,440
Everything was still drive long.

1425
01:29:32,440 --> 01:29:38,280
But after months of not sleeping and those issues starting to come up, I was having panic

1426
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:45,200
attacks and anxiety attacks several a week at work, at home.

1427
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:49,680
I found myself sitting days on end in my PJs when I got up, just sitting in a darkened

1428
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:54,000
room, no TV, no book, no nothing, just staring at a wall and wondering what was wrong with

1429
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,000
me.

1430
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:07,200
Yeah, and I think the point that you're trying to work to is on October 19th of 2019, everything

1431
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,120
came to a head.

1432
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,160
I was on a midnight shift.

1433
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:15,720
I was still a lieutenant sitting behind a school and looking through my windshield.

1434
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,920
It was about three o'clock in the morning and I'm staring at this orange traffic cone

1435
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:23,120
in the middle of the parking lot.

1436
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:24,600
Everything was dark, man.

1437
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:25,600
Hopeless.

1438
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:30,480
I had done everything that I could do, I thought, to outrun and to be better than and to be

1439
01:30:30,480 --> 01:30:34,760
stronger than and to be the guy that I thought I was.

1440
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,000
But everything had fallen apart and was falling apart.

1441
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:42,440
I felt that I was incapable of love or being loved.

1442
01:30:42,440 --> 01:30:45,680
I felt nothing dead inside.

1443
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:54,560
And as I'm sitting there staring at the windshield, I realized that I've got a pistol on my hip.

1444
01:30:54,560 --> 01:31:01,920
And next thing you know, I've got this pistol in my hand and I'm staring at this fucking

1445
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:02,920
gun.

1446
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:08,320
And it scared the shit out of me because all I thought was not holy shit, am I holding

1447
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:09,320
a gun?

1448
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:11,320
It's like, I can be free.

1449
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:20,960
And you know, I've been to, like any responder, been to suicide calls, deaths, tragic, natural,

1450
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:22,240
all of it.

1451
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:27,800
And although I understand the act of suicide and I understand where people may have been

1452
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,800
during that, I could never reconcile that as my end.

1453
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:35,240
You know, I'd always believed that, you know, it's always darkest before the dawn and the

1454
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:37,000
sun will rise and a new day will be here.

1455
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:38,920
And there's always promise of a new day.

1456
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,040
And I didn't have any of that, man.

1457
01:31:42,040 --> 01:31:44,440
And it scared the shit out of me.

1458
01:31:44,440 --> 01:31:49,240
And I put my gun away and started driving.

1459
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:56,240
And I got home at six o'clock that morning and my wonderful bride was already awake and

1460
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:58,960
she didn't have a run plan that day or anything.

1461
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,840
So there was no reason for her to be awake at six AM on a Sunday morning.

1462
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:07,200
And I walked in the house and still had my gun belt on, my boots, everything.

1463
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:12,640
I hadn't undressed and she's sitting up in bed when I walked in and said, can we, can

1464
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:14,440
we talk?

1465
01:32:14,440 --> 01:32:20,400
And if you've been married for a day, then your wife is awake and says, can we have a

1466
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:21,400
talk?

1467
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:24,040
You know, that's not going to lead to anything good.

1468
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:27,520
Throw that onto the fact that you had been suffering for the better part of two decades

1469
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:33,600
with what you now know as post-traumatic stress or the constellation of, of injuries and illness

1470
01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:42,160
that come along with that massive depression, anxiety, not sleeping and convincing yourself

1471
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:46,720
that the next conversation that you and your spouse have, by the way, one of three of the

1472
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:51,680
only reasons that you're continuing to breathe is getting ready to tell you that she's leaving

1473
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:56,360
because you've convinced yourself that you are a bag of shit.

1474
01:32:56,360 --> 01:33:00,920
And for the first time in my life, I dropped to my knees, hands clasped at the foot of

1475
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:01,920
the bed.

1476
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:05,520
And I begged her with tears in my eyes.

1477
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:11,760
The first time I had cried that I could recall in at least 15 years, she had no idea what

1478
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:12,760
to do with any of that.

1479
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:17,720
She was completely blown away that I had had that reaction to a simple request of let's

1480
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:18,720
talk.

1481
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:20,200
And she said, would you go to counseling with me?

1482
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:22,000
Of course, my answer was yes.

1483
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:23,000
Yes, anything.

1484
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:25,000
Yes, we'll do that.

1485
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:26,000
Yeah.

1486
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:27,000
Yeah.

1487
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:33,480
That's, that brings us to October 20th or October of 2019.

1488
01:33:33,480 --> 01:33:40,480
So yeah, that was the beginning of the journey.

1489
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:45,320
And again, when you listen to so many of these people's journeys and yours again, you've

1490
01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:50,080
got all the things you've got, you know, organizational betrayal from some of the poor leaders that

1491
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:51,080
you were on.

1492
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:55,880
You've got the TBIs, you've got sleep deprivation, you've got the things that we see and do.

1493
01:33:55,880 --> 01:34:00,120
And it's this, this video, you know, perfect storm in a negative way.

1494
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:04,040
And over and over and over again, and I'll get to see if this was truly what you were

1495
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:11,480
feeling, you hear about this distorted element, this distorted reality, like you said, you

1496
01:34:11,480 --> 01:34:14,280
walk in and thinking she's going to leave you.

1497
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:21,740
One thing I think that's just so sad is our generation when we were younger men, suicide

1498
01:34:21,740 --> 01:34:23,640
was cowardly selfish.

1499
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:25,720
How could they think of the kids?

1500
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:31,720
And yet over and over and over again, when I hear stories like this, you hear that the

1501
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:38,120
brain is so miswired that that person truly believes that they are a burden to the very

1502
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:39,840
people that love them.

1503
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:44,960
And so you add that selfless servant, especially one who's got the means of suicide strapped

1504
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:46,960
to their waist.

1505
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:53,040
And at that point, that idea of suicide or the completion of suicide in that distorted

1506
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:58,160
reality becomes courageous and selfless to the unhealthy mind.

1507
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:03,160
It's that they, you know, they want to free their loved ones from the burden of themselves

1508
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:05,800
from the pain that they are inflicting on their loved ones.

1509
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:09,040
The healthy brain looks at that and goes, what the fuck are you talking about?

1510
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:10,040
They loved you.

1511
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:12,720
You're going to, it's going to be more painful for them now.

1512
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:14,560
So talk to me about that place.

1513
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,960
Like, you know, what, what were those voices and what was that reality compared to you

1514
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:22,520
now sitting here?

1515
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:28,520
That's still something I'm still trying to unravel five years later.

1516
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:36,960
God, I wish I had a good answer prepared for you, but that's not, I can tell you this and

1517
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:42,880
not to turn this into a spiritual podcast, but my own spiritual journey has come from

1518
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:43,880
this.

1519
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:49,400
But during that time, James, I didn't see God not working in my life, not present with

1520
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:50,680
me, not guiding me anything.

1521
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:55,840
It was black, just dark.

1522
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:58,840
There was nothing again.

1523
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:06,960
You know, I, I set such a high level of expectations and professionalism for myself and my achievements.

1524
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:07,960
And I wasn't meeting those.

1525
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:11,280
You know, I was, I was winning by all outwardly appearance.

1526
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:14,080
Everything I did was a win, but I didn't see it that way.

1527
01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:17,640
I mean, I remember even talking to my captain, he was a new captain.

1528
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,200
And I said, Hey, look, I've, I'm normally better than this.

1529
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:21,360
You've known me for 20 years.

1530
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:23,240
This is, I'll get a win soon.

1531
01:36:23,240 --> 01:36:26,560
And he's looking at me like I've lost my goddamn mind.

1532
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:30,820
And I just, I wasn't, I knew what was going on at me, but nobody else did.

1533
01:36:30,820 --> 01:36:32,000
And I didn't ask for help.

1534
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:36,760
I tried to sit down one time and speak to my major and I told him, Hey, look, I hate

1535
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:40,080
to use the word, but I feel like a pussy for even saying this.

1536
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:43,020
He's like, bro, what's going on?

1537
01:36:43,020 --> 01:36:44,600
And I gave him like wave tops.

1538
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:45,760
Yeah, I'm not sleeping well.

1539
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:47,840
You know, the kids are having problems.

1540
01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:49,720
We work at midnight, you know, whatever.

1541
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:53,680
Wife's afternoon and you're always working, you know, stupid shit.

1542
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:56,400
Like if you get a chance, maybe find me a phone a day shift.

1543
01:36:56,400 --> 01:36:57,400
And that was it.

1544
01:36:57,400 --> 01:36:59,920
I never went in and said, Hey, look, man, I'm falling apart.

1545
01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:00,920
I need help.

1546
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:08,360
I wish I had now in retrospect, but yeah, where I wasn't in that point, it seemed like

1547
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:09,840
you said, it seemed like a good idea.

1548
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:10,840
This was the answer.

1549
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:15,360
And then the only thing I think that stopped me was I realized that this would never be

1550
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:16,360
explained.

1551
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:18,560
No, no one knew that I'd been hurting.

1552
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:20,040
I hadn't asked for help.

1553
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:21,920
I haven't even had the signal.

1554
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:28,840
I didn't slow down for any outward appearances.

1555
01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:30,560
I don't know why I didn't.

1556
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:37,640
Other than that, you know, my wife that day, she wouldn't know for several months that

1557
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:42,840
three hours prior I had a pistol in my hand and it was in counseling and therapy later

1558
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:44,560
that I said that.

1559
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:52,520
And even more recently, just before my book went for presale, we were talking about that.

1560
01:37:52,520 --> 01:37:59,840
And I said, you know, I never asked you this, but what were you doing laying awake all night?

1561
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:01,920
What was going on that night?

1562
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:07,960
And she said, I had been praying every night before I went to sleep for 15 years for you

1563
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:11,680
to return home safely and for you to get healed.

1564
01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:15,040
And she said, I was awake all night that night praying.

1565
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:27,520
And I'm sorry, I still get emotional over this.

1566
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:32,080
She said, I was awake all night praying for you to come home safe one more time, looking

1567
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:40,000
for the answer, asking for the courage to help you, to find a way to help you.

1568
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:47,560
And I told her, I said, you know, during that time, I don't remember seeing God.

1569
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:51,760
And before I finished that sentence, she said that it ever occurred to you, you didn't have

1570
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:57,400
to see God because somebody for 15 years had been praying for your safety.

1571
01:38:57,400 --> 01:39:05,280
And it just reinforced or enforced the idea that I had that, you know, here I was, you

1572
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:09,320
know, years earlier thinking I was a worthless piece of shit, that the woman that I loved

1573
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:15,920
so deeply was going to leave me and take my kids only to find out and to learn again that

1574
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:21,760
the woman that I thought despised me quite literally paid attention to every waking and

1575
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:28,080
sleeping moment that she was awake and had prayed continuously for my safety and for

1576
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,080
my healing.

1577
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:38,840
Yeah, man, I will never be convinced any other way, but my wife for all the wonderful things

1578
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:44,680
that she has accomplished in her life and will accomplish in the rest of her life, she

1579
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:52,920
was born and she came into my life to be there in October of 2019 to save me.

1580
01:39:52,920 --> 01:39:55,640
You can present whatever it is you want to present.

1581
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:58,160
You will never convince me otherwise.

1582
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:05,360
And yeah, man, I hope and the reason I'm doing this and the reason I've done the book and

1583
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:10,120
the speaking and everything that I want to do in this new purpose is I want as many people

1584
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:14,760
that can hear my voice and have access to my words and my story, that they don't have

1585
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:19,280
that gun in hand moment, that they don't get that dark.

1586
01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:23,520
And I know that's ridiculous to believe and not everybody is going to have the same reaction

1587
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:30,480
to my story, but at least I'm doing my part now as you're doing yours.

1588
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:36,960
And man, it's a shit place to be and I can't explain it.

1589
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:42,640
I can't explain it to people other than it just, man, it's awful.

1590
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,000
It hurts.

1591
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:49,800
You get some of these people that just, you know, we're in the most horrific of incidents

1592
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:54,360
and that, you know, that one event again, it's still cumulative, but that one event

1593
01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:57,160
is obviously the real corner turner.

1594
01:40:57,160 --> 01:41:01,680
But I think for the other 99% of us, it's death by a thousand cuts.

1595
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:04,840
And it's, this is what happens is that people don't know they're drowning.

1596
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:09,160
It's that frog in the saucepan, you know, that they slowly turn up the heat.

1597
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:10,160
Yeah.

1598
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:13,640
I, I, I knew something was amiss, but I didn't have a name for it.

1599
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:16,880
You know, I don't have PTSD because I'm tougher than that.

1600
01:41:16,880 --> 01:41:17,880
You know, I'm the guy.

1601
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:20,040
I had to be the guy at everything that I did.

1602
01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:21,040
I was the top performer.

1603
01:41:21,040 --> 01:41:22,040
I was the man.

1604
01:41:22,040 --> 01:41:30,840
You know, I had to prove that I earned the company that I kept and that's what it was.

1605
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:36,680
I was living to someone else's expectation of what a warrior was, not my own life.

1606
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:38,160
And it was never enough.

1607
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:45,400
So I just kept going and until, you know, I hate to say broke, even though it was, it

1608
01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:51,960
was a break, a breakthrough, I think more than anything else.

1609
01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:53,280
I'm just one of the lucky ones, man.

1610
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:54,960
I can't say that I willed myself through it.

1611
01:41:54,960 --> 01:41:55,960
I just got lucky.

1612
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:56,960
I guess.

1613
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:57,960
I don't know.

1614
01:41:57,960 --> 01:41:59,720
I don't have any other explanation.

1615
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:00,720
Divine intervention.

1616
01:42:00,720 --> 01:42:01,720
Yes.

1617
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:04,480
Uh, the faith and strength of a devoted wife.

1618
01:42:04,480 --> 01:42:05,480
Yes.

1619
01:42:05,480 --> 01:42:12,360
But there are so many things that go into why I didn't that night or why I haven't since.

1620
01:42:12,360 --> 01:42:17,200
Um, yeah, cause it got darker again.

1621
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:20,000
So yeah, this is a whole thing, man.

1622
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:21,000
You're right.

1623
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:27,000
There are people that have that one, uh, moment that, that, that does the men.

1624
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:30,960
And that could be as a result because it was a really, really horrible thing or an accumulation

1625
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:36,840
of, you know, at first childhood experiences, because we all come to this, uh, broken or

1626
01:42:36,840 --> 01:42:41,120
damaged I should say, or, you know, carrying our own bucket of shit before we even start

1627
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:42,620
doing this.

1628
01:42:42,620 --> 01:42:44,200
So it's, it's only a matter of time.

1629
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:47,320
This is, uh, this is like you said, this is the human condition.

1630
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:48,800
It's going to impact you.

1631
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:53,480
If it doesn't, I have very big concerns about your stability to begin with.

1632
01:42:53,480 --> 01:42:54,480
Absolutely.

1633
01:42:54,480 --> 01:42:58,640
Well, one common denominator I've noticed from a lot of people that have got to that

1634
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:03,280
dark place is the adverse childhood experience, you know, so you didn't have to be at nine

1635
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:10,000
11 or the Oklahoma bombing, but you add in, you know, that, that fear and lack of security

1636
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:14,000
and, you know, not being wanted as a child or being abused as a child.

1637
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,020
And then you put the uniform on and then you carry forward.

1638
01:43:17,020 --> 01:43:20,360
And so there's all these different pieces of the puzzle that we've got to pull out the

1639
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:24,800
shadows and unidentify, you know, this is why I think rather than having a psychological

1640
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:30,840
test that you either, you know, you get a check or a cross, you know, on your application,

1641
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:34,560
why don't we start counseling on probation?

1642
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:37,200
Why don't we make it the same as PT?

1643
01:43:37,200 --> 01:43:43,140
Because I truly believe, and I want to get into your growth journey that these struggles

1644
01:43:43,140 --> 01:43:44,140
become strength.

1645
01:43:44,140 --> 01:43:49,080
I think that's the real hope of the post-traumatic growth conversation rather than, you know,

1646
01:43:49,080 --> 01:43:50,440
just, oh, it's my identity.

1647
01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:51,680
I'm the PTSD guy.

1648
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:55,160
No, I'm now I've found ways to heal.

1649
01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:56,160
It's not perfect.

1650
01:43:56,160 --> 01:44:01,000
I'm always going to have my highs and lows, but putting that hope into the fact that that

1651
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,040
to me, that's really what resilience is.

1652
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:06,320
We talk about resilience training and it's very kind of wordy to me.

1653
01:44:06,320 --> 01:44:10,720
It's figuring out what your shit is dealing with it.

1654
01:44:10,720 --> 01:44:15,360
And now that becomes that gold glue in the Japanese pottery, you know, it's a scar to

1655
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:16,360
be proud of.

1656
01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:20,760
And then other people look at those scars and go, can I ask you how you did that?

1657
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:22,720
Because actually you think I'm fine.

1658
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:24,200
I'm not fucking fine either.

1659
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:28,040
And I'm going through this stuff and people become this beacon of light then.

1660
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:29,520
Yes.

1661
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,320
That's the, that's the point of the book, the way forward.

1662
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:39,200
You know, I, when I wrote it, it's, it's become four different things.

1663
01:44:39,200 --> 01:44:45,600
And we can get into that later, but it, it started off as an origin story and a journey,

1664
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:47,080
but it's more than that now.

1665
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:51,280
And book number two is going to be more of the way forward.

1666
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:52,600
You know, it's not an origin.

1667
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:54,960
It's a story of transformation.

1668
01:44:54,960 --> 01:44:59,100
And like you said, you know, I, I actually had this, this conversation with, with Chris

1669
01:44:59,100 --> 01:45:03,720
free yesterday that, you know, I don't want to call them badges of honors, but they, they're

1670
01:45:03,720 --> 01:45:05,440
definitely stripes that I've earned.

1671
01:45:05,440 --> 01:45:10,520
You know, this is the, there's a cost and a price that you're going to pay.

1672
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:16,520
And on the end of it, you have these things and these experiences that I think are an

1673
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:19,160
indication of a life of service.

1674
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:20,760
Well lived.

1675
01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:25,680
Um, you, because of your experiences, you have access to rooms that other people are

1676
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:27,400
never going to have access to.

1677
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:30,800
And I don't know if that's the thing to be proud of, but you're still here.

1678
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:32,680
You know, it, it didn't kill you.

1679
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:34,400
You're still with us.

1680
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:38,960
The growth that can come from that, the, the stealing of, of you, you know, the, the burning

1681
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:44,800
of the impurities, the, the gold in the pottery, those are all things that, um, that you should

1682
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:49,800
be proud of, but again, because you're still here, you know, we, we can talk about our,

1683
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:53,280
our most shameful and embarrassing moments, but what did you do with that?

1684
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:59,360
Um, you know, I listened to the podcast, uh, yesterday that you did with JD Miller and

1685
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:05,760
Chris free and, um, JD made a comment on, on the, on the podcast that I really loved.

1686
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:10,160
And I wrote down and I'm trying to work that into, but resilience, she said she didn't

1687
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:16,280
like the term resilience because it means that you're returning to a normal shape.

1688
01:46:16,280 --> 01:46:21,160
But do we ever return to a normal shape or homeostasis?

1689
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:24,760
And she referred to use the word perseverance.

1690
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:29,520
It's like, man, I really, that's, that's power in and of itself.

1691
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:34,120
I mean, we're never going to return to what we are because the, the things that we do

1692
01:46:34,120 --> 01:46:36,640
in our life of service, they're meant to change us.

1693
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:41,120
They're going to change us and we can curl up in a ball or we can curl up in the bottom

1694
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:48,380
of a bottle of our choice, or we can stand the fuck up.

1695
01:46:48,380 --> 01:46:53,560
Remember who we are, what we've done and lead the way for others out of it.

1696
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:56,720
And for me, buddy, that's the choice.

1697
01:46:56,720 --> 01:46:57,720
That's the choice.

1698
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:03,520
Um, that's the only choice that's, that's worth, uh, it's, it's the only path worth

1699
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:04,520
walking.

1700
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:06,160
I mean, we've done hard shit.

1701
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:12,360
I've done hard shit and you have to remind yourself that you're capable of doing anything

1702
01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:17,560
and to, to, to be on this mission with other people that are like-minded and pushing in

1703
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:18,560
this direction.

1704
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:25,560
Like I told you before we started recording, I have been so blessed to meet and speak with

1705
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:30,240
some amazing people, just extraordinary people.

1706
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:34,240
And to, uh, to just to be in the room with them, to hear the story, to be on a podcast

1707
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:35,240
with James Kearing.

1708
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:36,920
Are you kidding me?

1709
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:38,080
You'd asked me this a year ago.

1710
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,000
I'm like, you know, are you kidding me?

1711
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:42,720
I'd be like, yeah, you guys are full of shit.

1712
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:44,560
That guy's never going to answer my phone call.

1713
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:49,720
And you know, Nick O'Kelly is just, you know, six degrees of separation and here I am today.

1714
01:47:49,720 --> 01:47:56,200
But man, I'm just, I am so blessed one to have experienced the things that I've experienced.

1715
01:47:56,200 --> 01:48:04,980
So blessed to have persevered and to be here today that, um, it would be selfish of me

1716
01:48:04,980 --> 01:48:08,960
not to share this story with others in the hopes that would help someone else.

1717
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:13,480
Um, I'm not smart enough to come up with a new work shift and I'm still baffled by the,

1718
01:48:13,480 --> 01:48:16,320
the work split that you, uh, that you're proposing.

1719
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:18,000
Uh, although it makes sense.

1720
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:23,640
I just, uh, yeah, I can't wrap my mind around the bigger problems, but I could talk about

1721
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:24,640
me.

1722
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:25,640
So,

1723
01:48:25,640 --> 01:48:29,800
well, speaking of that then, so you're on your knees in front of your wife.

1724
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:34,040
You realize that she's been by your side the whole way.

1725
01:48:34,040 --> 01:48:36,720
What are, what is that growth journey for you?

1726
01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:41,240
What are the tools that you start using to get yourself out of that darkness?

1727
01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:43,360
And that is like sawing off your arm.

1728
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:50,840
It is, it is not easy because you have to backing up Michelle, my wife, she knew that

1729
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:52,520
it, she had come at me with your broken.

1730
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:55,640
You need to get help that would not have landed.

1731
01:48:55,640 --> 01:49:00,640
What she said to me was, would you go to marriage counseling with me?

1732
01:49:00,640 --> 01:49:02,620
So she wanted to be a part of it.

1733
01:49:02,620 --> 01:49:09,160
She knew that I, I felt with her by her side, by my side, I could accomplish anything.

1734
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:11,800
And so for me, I was like, okay, well, this is a nice thing.

1735
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:12,960
I could feel this.

1736
01:49:12,960 --> 01:49:18,040
So yes, we're going to marriage counseling, but it was more a lot of crying and yes, yes,

1737
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:19,040
anything, anything.

1738
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:20,040
So we made an appointment.

1739
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:26,320
We went to go see the, the therapist and used the, used our EAP for the office.

1740
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:30,200
And at the end of the hour, she says, well, there's nothing I can do for you.

1741
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:34,160
She says, I don't, I don't treat couples like you, James.

1742
01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:35,160
That's what I did.

1743
01:49:35,160 --> 01:49:38,280
I went through my hands in the air, head back, said that I knew it.

1744
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:39,280
It's hopeless.

1745
01:49:39,280 --> 01:49:40,280
It's over.

1746
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:42,280
And she says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you misunderstand me.

1747
01:49:42,280 --> 01:49:46,080
She's like, you could work on communication and Doug, you can work on setting boundaries.

1748
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:49,400
I can give you some pamphlets to read, but I'm not going to waste your time counseling

1749
01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:50,400
here.

1750
01:49:50,400 --> 01:49:51,400
You're each other's best friend.

1751
01:49:51,400 --> 01:49:54,880
You know, there's, there's nothing to counsel here.

1752
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:59,120
And Michelle's looking at me like I lost my mind because I'm still under the impression

1753
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:02,360
that we're here for marriage counseling.

1754
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:07,560
And so the counselor says, Doug, you know, let me ask you what your mood like, are you

1755
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:08,960
normally low or high?

1756
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:10,920
Michelle says he's low.

1757
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:12,520
I looked at her as like, well, you're not Doug.

1758
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:13,960
What do you know?

1759
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:15,920
You don't know my mood.

1760
01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:19,160
And then she says, Doug, how do you sleep?

1761
01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:22,200
And Michelle immediately says he doesn't sleep.

1762
01:50:22,200 --> 01:50:24,200
He stops breathing when he's sleeping.

1763
01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:25,500
He grinds his teeth.

1764
01:50:25,500 --> 01:50:26,560
He fights in his sleep.

1765
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:27,560
He cries in his sleep.

1766
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:28,560
He doesn't dream.

1767
01:50:28,560 --> 01:50:30,360
And if he does, it's a nightmare.

1768
01:50:30,360 --> 01:50:34,600
She says, I've laid awake watching him sleep for the last 15 years.

1769
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:38,280
And it is the most heartbreaking thing I've ever had to witness.

1770
01:50:38,280 --> 01:50:41,760
And James then it occurred to me that the woman that I thought despised me, that loathed

1771
01:50:41,760 --> 01:50:49,360
the very ground I walked on, had been paying attention to every waking and sleeping moment.

1772
01:50:49,360 --> 01:50:52,120
I was amazed, but I was still so confused.

1773
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:54,320
Why are we there?

1774
01:50:54,320 --> 01:51:03,800
And she asked me about PTSD and gave me recommendations of somebody to go see at the VA.

1775
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:11,320
And over the next six weeks, I went to go see my primary care, which I was very lucky.

1776
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:14,360
Private medicine had his own practice, but he was a sports doctor.

1777
01:51:14,360 --> 01:51:18,960
And I would go see him because I hurt myself and over-trained quite often.

1778
01:51:18,960 --> 01:51:24,240
And I told him wave tops of what was going on.

1779
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:29,640
So he ordered a sleep study and he did a full panel of blood work, cortisol, testosterone,

1780
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:30,640
and everything.

1781
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:34,160
My total testosterone at the time was 168.

1782
01:51:34,160 --> 01:51:35,880
Oh, yes.

1783
01:51:35,880 --> 01:51:37,240
Thank you.

1784
01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:41,840
Optimal, they say, is 600, 800, but optimal for me may be more than that.

1785
01:51:41,840 --> 01:51:44,780
But anyway, it was 168.

1786
01:51:44,780 --> 01:51:51,640
My sleep study lasted two hours and 38 minutes, which was a good night of sleep for me.

1787
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:54,480
And he asked me, he's like, how are you still walking?

1788
01:51:54,480 --> 01:51:56,040
I don't know, doctor.

1789
01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:57,040
You're the doctor.

1790
01:51:57,040 --> 01:51:59,440
You know, you tell me.

1791
01:51:59,440 --> 01:52:05,920
So he started me, he diagnosed me with seasonal affective disorder and started me on the low

1792
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:11,440
dose of wellbutrin, got me on testosterone replacement therapy, wanted to put me on a

1793
01:52:11,440 --> 01:52:12,440
CPAP.

1794
01:52:12,440 --> 01:52:15,800
But he said, you know, with the other stuff that's going on, I want to refer you to the

1795
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:17,880
VA.

1796
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:22,640
And I got out in late 2007.

1797
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:24,400
I went to the VA in 2008.

1798
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:26,360
They told me I had a job and had health insurance.

1799
01:52:26,360 --> 01:52:32,040
There was nothing they could do for me, so I left and didn't go back.

1800
01:52:32,040 --> 01:52:33,040
Here we are in 2019.

1801
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,400
I'm like, yeah, bro, I've been out a long time, but you know, they are the experts,

1802
01:52:36,400 --> 01:52:37,400
like you said.

1803
01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:40,800
So let me go check them out and get into the healthcare system, which I did.

1804
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:43,120
And you know, some of it worked out great.

1805
01:52:43,120 --> 01:52:44,120
Some of it not so much.

1806
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:49,320
They handed me a handful of pills that, you know, ensured that I felt nothing at all,

1807
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:50,920
which is not a good thing.

1808
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:57,360
I did the conjoined combined, our conjoined cognitive behavioral therapy, the CBT, with

1809
01:52:57,360 --> 01:53:01,280
Michelle, which was great because she was my safety blanket.

1810
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:06,600
And we went through that together, learned how to reframe things and boundaries.

1811
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:11,160
And you know, I've done the grounding, basically everything that Dr. Huberman says about sleep

1812
01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:12,560
and grounding and eating.

1813
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:13,560
I've done all of that stuff.

1814
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:19,680
I've listened to the podcast, I've read the books, trying to take care of myself.

1815
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:26,120
I recently completed a round of transcranial magnetic stimulation, the ETMS therapy, which

1816
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:30,760
by the way, if you are a veteran or first responder in Florida, is now being paid for

1817
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:34,800
free through ETMS Florida by the state of Florida.

1818
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,320
It's a grant program.

1819
01:53:36,320 --> 01:53:41,520
There's six locations here in Florida and it's completely free.

1820
01:53:41,520 --> 01:53:49,040
It's targeted transcranial magnetic stimulation, stimulation, sorry, ETMS.

1821
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:56,360
That has helped with the waves that cause depression, anxiety, sleeplessness, hypervigilance

1822
01:53:56,360 --> 01:54:00,320
and increases executive function.

1823
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:03,720
And anecdotally, I've experienced all the positive effects.

1824
01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:09,880
And if you look at the EEGs that I've done, a smart person reads them, they'll show you,

1825
01:54:09,880 --> 01:54:12,180
oh yes, see this is where it's gotten better.

1826
01:54:12,180 --> 01:54:15,760
So there are 800,000 cops on the payroll right now.

1827
01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:21,200
There are 800,000 different combinations of ways you can heal yourself.

1828
01:54:21,200 --> 01:54:25,960
The key is raise your hand and say, I need help.

1829
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:28,320
That's the barrier to entry to get help.

1830
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:31,120
Raise your freaking hand and say, I need help.

1831
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:36,800
And there's no requisite number of car crashes you have to go to or house fires you need

1832
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:37,800
to go to.

1833
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:38,800
It could be one.

1834
01:54:38,800 --> 01:54:39,800
It could be your first day on the job.

1835
01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:41,560
It could be your last day on the job.

1836
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:43,160
Just get help.

1837
01:54:43,160 --> 01:54:45,400
So that's been my journey, man.

1838
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:55,160
I got so desperate at one point in time in the early days of the, you know, the, you

1839
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:56,960
know, the Iowa Oscar treatments, the psychedelics.

1840
01:54:56,960 --> 01:54:58,640
I was like, I'm going to do that.

1841
01:54:58,640 --> 01:55:02,360
I know what the stigma says because, you know, I was a cop and we shouldn't do that because

1842
01:55:02,360 --> 01:55:03,360
it's bad stuff.

1843
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:06,480
But then, you know, you listen to some of the people that have done it, who have taken

1844
01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:07,480
these journeys.

1845
01:55:07,480 --> 01:55:11,160
You know, Marcus Capone, listening to his story and the successes with the psychedelics

1846
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:12,160
and others.

1847
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:14,040
It's like, my God, I need this.

1848
01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:18,360
I mean, I'm not going to go to the Circle K and buy it from my street corner chemist

1849
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:22,600
and take a trip, but let's look into all of these things.

1850
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:30,680
So circling way back to what you first said when we started this line of questioning,

1851
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:33,720
this should be part of like physical training in the academy.

1852
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:35,760
These kids should be front loaded with this information.

1853
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,620
Like, look, these things are going to happen to you.

1854
01:55:39,620 --> 01:55:41,080
This is a physiological thing.

1855
01:55:41,080 --> 01:55:42,960
It happens at the cellular level.

1856
01:55:42,960 --> 01:55:44,300
It cannot be compelled.

1857
01:55:44,300 --> 01:55:46,200
It cannot be wished away.

1858
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:47,560
You can't hydrate enough.

1859
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:48,560
You can't run enough.

1860
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:54,600
These are things you're going to have to deal with and they are normal.

1861
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:56,360
You know, I think that's very important.

1862
01:55:56,360 --> 01:56:00,360
They have to know what's going to happen to them so they can recognize it.

1863
01:56:00,360 --> 01:56:02,280
For me, it was a secret for many years.

1864
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:07,440
And then by the time I realized what it was, I wasn't willing to say anything because of

1865
01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:08,960
how I thought I'd be perceived.

1866
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:16,360
And even after that, it wasn't until that proverbial gun in the hand moment.

1867
01:56:16,360 --> 01:56:20,960
So yeah, I think I over-answered your question, but there it is.

1868
01:56:20,960 --> 01:56:23,360
No, not at all.

1869
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:26,400
So talk to me then, we've talked about cowardice earlier.

1870
01:56:26,400 --> 01:56:31,240
Talk to me about courage because I've had a lot of people on here that have been to

1871
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:37,320
war that were special operators that were, you know, in alpha profession here.

1872
01:56:37,320 --> 01:56:41,800
And I hear over and over again that the bravest thing they ever did was ask for help.

1873
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:46,920
Now, as you mentioned earlier, I feel like a pussy saying this, but I think that we've

1874
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:51,080
got it completely twisted in our generation, as I've pointed out many times, raised on

1875
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:56,600
Schwarzenegger and Stallone and these kind of stone-faced bodybuilders that for some

1876
01:56:56,600 --> 01:56:59,960
reason we took as our masculine role models.

1877
01:56:59,960 --> 01:57:05,160
But talk to me about that because I think that reframing the fact that the courageous

1878
01:57:05,160 --> 01:57:09,280
thing to do is ask for help is one of the things that we need front and center in this

1879
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:10,280
conversation.

1880
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:11,280
Okay.

1881
01:57:11,280 --> 01:57:14,400
Well, I'm going to give you the answer and I'm also going to play devil's advocate and

1882
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:15,400
an answer to that.

1883
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:18,720
But first, I want to start with a quote that you dropped on me when we first started our

1884
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:23,280
conversation today was what other people think about me is none of my business.

1885
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:28,160
And I think that's good business.

1886
01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:30,280
Wow.

1887
01:57:30,280 --> 01:57:31,440
Okay.

1888
01:57:31,440 --> 01:57:40,160
So courage.

1889
01:57:40,160 --> 01:57:47,360
If you want to save your life, save your family, enjoy the retirement that you've earned over

1890
01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:54,280
a life of service, you have to get out of your mind that this is a game of one-upmanship

1891
01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:57,960
or I'm better than that or not as good as this guy or that guy.

1892
01:57:57,960 --> 01:57:59,720
You're living your own life.

1893
01:57:59,720 --> 01:58:04,400
Your experiences, your vantage point, you could have been on the same call with somebody

1894
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:07,760
else and they didn't have a reaction to it.

1895
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:10,720
Was there a locus of control on their end?

1896
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:14,280
Were you in the corner just getting shot at or you were the guy shooting back?

1897
01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:16,480
There's a difference in perspective there.

1898
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:22,440
I've heard people say, well, I've gone to three infant drownings and pool.

1899
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:24,960
You got to have at least four because I don't have a problem with it yet.

1900
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:28,080
So you can't have a problem on your first one.

1901
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:30,560
That's complete bullshit.

1902
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:33,160
And I've actually heard that argument made.

1903
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:35,120
I'm like, are you?

1904
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:38,520
That's the most toxic fucked up thing I've ever heard come out of anybody's mouth.

1905
01:58:38,520 --> 01:58:41,200
And I've been into some stupid conversations before.

1906
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:43,720
It's like, my God, how can you say that?

1907
01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:46,640
Or, oh yeah, man, if I was at that shooting, it would have gone like this.

1908
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:47,640
And I, shut up.

1909
01:58:47,640 --> 01:58:48,920
You've never been in a shooting.

1910
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:52,360
People who talk about shootings have never been in a shooting.

1911
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:55,680
So shut up about what you would have done.

1912
01:58:55,680 --> 01:58:59,660
This idea of one upmanship or I have to be tougher than, or somebody will think less

1913
01:58:59,660 --> 01:59:02,360
of me.

1914
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:03,760
That's all bullshit, man.

1915
01:59:03,760 --> 01:59:05,020
That stuff is what's killing us.

1916
01:59:05,020 --> 01:59:07,400
That's what's keeping us hiding.

1917
01:59:07,400 --> 01:59:14,280
If anybody doubts me or my abilities to handle my shit, that's fine.

1918
01:59:14,280 --> 01:59:17,320
If my message is not for you, good.

1919
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:18,840
Good.

1920
01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:20,480
Why can't you just suck it up?

1921
01:59:20,480 --> 01:59:23,120
Well, you weren't in that parking lot with me.

1922
01:59:23,120 --> 01:59:27,320
You haven't had one of those moments yourself and I am so grateful that you have not.

1923
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:29,280
I hope that you never do.

1924
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:36,040
But if you do find yourself in that position, I hope that you find it in your heart to understand

1925
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:38,080
that this is what it feels like.

1926
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:44,040
I hope that you find grace in a way through.

1927
01:59:44,040 --> 01:59:50,480
Owning my shit, as you said, I did not do for the first time until June of this year,

1928
01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:52,120
late June.

1929
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:58,520
And there were so many points in my growth over the last seven months that I hadn't experienced

1930
01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:02,160
in the previous four years of this journey.

1931
02:00:02,160 --> 02:00:03,160
Like I said, I got dark.

1932
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:05,840
I did a lot of journaling after I retired.

1933
02:00:05,840 --> 02:00:11,880
I convinced myself even as of Christmas of 2023 that the only reason I'm on this side

1934
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:15,440
of dirt is so my family keeps getting my pension.

1935
02:00:15,440 --> 02:00:20,240
I had reduced even in my healing years after, had reduced myself to nothing more than a

1936
02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:21,240
paycheck.

1937
02:00:21,240 --> 02:00:30,000
But finding this purpose and more to the point of owning my shit and telling the story, I

1938
02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:33,240
stood up at a, there was a foundation called the Comradery Foundation.

1939
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:37,200
They're here in Florida and they work with veterans and now I've branched out the first

1940
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:44,800
responders to provide transition services and mental health services free of charge.

1941
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:48,120
And they helped me at the very beginning of my journey.

1942
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:54,520
And I met some of them at a, back in May, I met them face to face.

1943
02:00:54,520 --> 02:00:57,060
I was like, Oh my God, I spoke to you on the phone.

1944
02:00:57,060 --> 02:00:58,640
This is what you did for me.

1945
02:00:58,640 --> 02:00:59,640
Thank you so much.

1946
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:02,320
And I'm telling them, you know, my journey is and what I want to do.

1947
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:06,880
And you know, I've got this manuscript that's half-assed completed and you know, and they

1948
02:01:06,880 --> 02:01:09,880
said, would you speak at our PTSD breakfast in June?

1949
02:01:09,880 --> 02:01:10,880
I said, absolutely.

1950
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:13,000
I want to be a speaker.

1951
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,040
I could talk to people.

1952
02:01:15,040 --> 02:01:20,580
And I prepared this five minute speech just of my story and what the Comradery Foundation

1953
02:01:20,580 --> 02:01:23,360
did to me or for me.

1954
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:26,880
And there was a sheriff from central Florida with a bunch of his deputies and supervisors

1955
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:28,280
sitting at one of the round tables.

1956
02:01:28,280 --> 02:01:32,040
And then there's veterans and survivors and all of this stuff.

1957
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:33,800
And Michelle is sitting there too.

1958
02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:38,080
And I got called up on stage during this breakfast while everybody's clanking their freaking

1959
02:01:38,080 --> 02:01:39,080
silverware and shit.

1960
02:01:39,080 --> 02:01:44,920
And I stood up there and took the microphone and James, I said the first words and tonight

1961
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:48,920
the sound of freedom started ringing in my head.

1962
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:52,760
I didn't hear a damn thing that I said.

1963
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:53,760
I know that my voice cracked.

1964
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:55,080
I was very conscious of that.

1965
02:01:55,080 --> 02:01:59,560
I'm looking at all these people and I look over at Michelle as I'm telling my story and

1966
02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,880
the CEO of the Comradery Foundation is sitting in the chair next to her holding her hand.

1967
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:08,920
And I realized that this was the first time Michelle has heard me say all of this at one

1968
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:09,920
time out loud.

1969
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:13,040
And this is the first time.

1970
02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:15,680
I mean, 10 people, 100 people, I don't know.

1971
02:02:15,680 --> 02:02:18,040
There were lots of tables and they were all full.

1972
02:02:18,040 --> 02:02:20,000
I'm telling this to complete strangers.

1973
02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:28,800
And here I am up there talking about the most, what I thought at the time was the weakest

1974
02:02:28,800 --> 02:02:33,080
points of my life as a man, as a father, as a responder, as a veteran, you know, all of

1975
02:02:33,080 --> 02:02:36,840
this, I'm throwing it out there for them to consume.

1976
02:02:36,840 --> 02:02:38,480
There's a camera rolling and everything.

1977
02:02:38,480 --> 02:02:44,800
There's Michelle, tears rolling down her face, sitting tall and proud and stoic.

1978
02:02:44,800 --> 02:02:51,200
And I got done and there was a round of applause and I came off the stage and I had people

1979
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:53,120
come up to me shaking hands, hugging me.

1980
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:54,760
And one guy even pulled me aside.

1981
02:02:54,760 --> 02:02:58,160
He was a veteran and he said, man, I can relate to your story.

1982
02:02:58,160 --> 02:02:59,520
He says, I still have the round.

1983
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:00,520
I said, what?

1984
02:03:00,520 --> 02:03:05,200
He said, yeah, I had the gun in my mouth, pulled the trigger, striker hit the primer

1985
02:03:05,200 --> 02:03:06,200
and it didn't go off.

1986
02:03:06,200 --> 02:03:09,120
He says, I still have the round with the struck primer.

1987
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:12,560
Like, holy shit.

1988
02:03:12,560 --> 02:03:16,360
And I got in the car and she left that breakfast, man.

1989
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:22,480
And I just, I had never felt more powerful in my life.

1990
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:26,760
And I know that sounds, I don't know if it sounds arrogant or stupid or, or what, but

1991
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:35,000
I felt, I use this term, I felt unfuck withable that there is nothing in this world that can

1992
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:40,920
hurt me because anything that can hurt me, I just gave it to a room full of strangers

1993
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,520
and um, and then doing hiding in plain sight.

1994
02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:48,360
There's there's 200 pages there of my weakest moments and I own every one of them.

1995
02:03:48,360 --> 02:03:50,560
You know, if you want to hurt me, there it is.

1996
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:52,360
I gave it to you.

1997
02:03:52,360 --> 02:03:56,140
Bring it because I know this, you weren't wearing my boots.

1998
02:03:56,140 --> 02:03:57,360
You weren't there.

1999
02:03:57,360 --> 02:04:01,800
If you did stand in the arena, your experiences were not my experiences.

2000
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:02,800
Take your shots.

2001
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:07,480
I don't give a shit what you think about me as none of my business, but I know the impact

2002
02:04:07,480 --> 02:04:13,920
that it's having from rookies and the fire service and, and uh, um, law enforcement world

2003
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:18,840
all the way up to retired tier one operators, uh, to, to PhDs to clinicians.

2004
02:04:18,840 --> 02:04:23,080
I know the impact that it's having and the response that I'm getting from this, I know

2005
02:04:23,080 --> 02:04:24,440
that I hit the mark.

2006
02:04:24,440 --> 02:04:26,920
I know that this is going to make a difference.

2007
02:04:26,920 --> 02:04:35,360
So my advice to anybody else, fuck them.

2008
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:38,160
If people that are following you now think that you're weak because you've owned your

2009
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:41,640
shit and you tell them you need help, you're setting the example for others so they don't

2010
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:44,680
have to stay sick and they think less of you.

2011
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:47,420
That's an indication of their character, not yours.

2012
02:04:47,420 --> 02:04:50,280
Drive on just as I always did.

2013
02:04:50,280 --> 02:04:51,480
Fuck those guys.

2014
02:04:51,480 --> 02:04:52,480
Drive on.

2015
02:04:52,480 --> 02:04:57,320
If you think that I'm no longer capable of being a good leader because I've had to take

2016
02:04:57,320 --> 02:04:59,960
a knee and said, look, this is a bridge too far.

2017
02:04:59,960 --> 02:05:00,960
I need help.

2018
02:05:00,960 --> 02:05:07,640
That's not an organization I want to be a part of, you know, and think to yourself retirees

2019
02:05:07,640 --> 02:05:13,160
or people that have, who have left service, the people who said shit about you, if they

2020
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:16,480
did say shit about you or if they ever got back to you, one, did they ever say it to

2021
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:18,320
your face?

2022
02:05:18,320 --> 02:05:22,400
Chances are no, they didn't because they're not as strong as you.

2023
02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:27,000
And having to come to you and tell you to your face, it's like holding a mirror up.

2024
02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:31,720
It just shows their weakness and you're an indication of their weakness.

2025
02:05:31,720 --> 02:05:36,280
Also, if you've retired, those people that you were concerned about what they would think

2026
02:05:36,280 --> 02:05:40,320
about you, how many times did you sit with them over a meal or had coffee?

2027
02:05:40,320 --> 02:05:43,400
How many times did they called you since you retired?

2028
02:05:43,400 --> 02:05:50,000
If you say one time, you may want to think about it, but the chances are it's been zero.

2029
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:53,200
So again, I refer to fuck them.

2030
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:54,200
It doesn't matter.

2031
02:05:54,200 --> 02:05:56,480
They're not paying my bills.

2032
02:05:56,480 --> 02:05:58,080
They're not holding my wife's hands.

2033
02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:00,600
They're not raising my kids.

2034
02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:03,520
They're not with me on this journey now moving forward.

2035
02:06:03,520 --> 02:06:07,560
And if you didn't want to be around me when I was broken and healing, you don't get to

2036
02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:09,240
be around me now.

2037
02:06:09,240 --> 02:06:13,120
So that, hopefully that answers the question.

2038
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:14,680
I'm very good at long form answers.

2039
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:15,680
Yeah.

2040
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:18,000
Well, you came to the right place.

2041
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:20,840
I think this is a point that I've made a lot recently too.

2042
02:06:20,840 --> 02:06:25,360
And I think where the stigma really is still embedded is addiction.

2043
02:06:25,360 --> 02:06:29,600
And it's funny because we don't usually bring alcohol into the word addiction.

2044
02:06:29,600 --> 02:06:31,400
You're thinking about the other stuff.

2045
02:06:31,400 --> 02:06:36,880
Obviously it's that social media, narcissism, all these things are addictions as well.

2046
02:06:36,880 --> 02:06:43,280
But especially if someone is taking cocaine, meth, whatever they're, the drug of choice,

2047
02:06:43,280 --> 02:06:49,240
that is another area where if people are hurting, they don't need more guilt and shame.

2048
02:06:49,240 --> 02:06:51,100
They need to be lifted up.

2049
02:06:51,100 --> 02:06:56,880
And what I say to people is if you hired someone who was a turd and they've been a turd since

2050
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:00,840
the day they walked into your police department or fire department all the way through to

2051
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:04,040
today, then you should just never have hired that person.

2052
02:07:04,040 --> 02:07:09,760
But chances are that trouble employee air quotes, that salty guy, that whatever you

2053
02:07:09,760 --> 02:07:14,920
want to turn them as, what were they like five years in, 10 years in?

2054
02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:19,760
There's a chance that they used to be an amazing cop, an amazing firefighter.

2055
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:22,920
And so they're spiraling.

2056
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:24,420
This is your giant red flag.

2057
02:07:24,420 --> 02:07:29,560
This is your opportunity to actually enact what is supposed to be a brotherhood, a sisterhood

2058
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:32,120
because this person now is a cry for help.

2059
02:07:32,120 --> 02:07:33,120
And I've seen it.

2060
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:36,000
I've lost friends that have died from an opioid overdose.

2061
02:07:36,000 --> 02:07:39,200
And the way that it was received in that particular department was disgusting.

2062
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:41,280
Oh, did you hear how he died though?

2063
02:07:41,280 --> 02:07:43,040
Did I hear how he died though?

2064
02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:45,440
Are you fucking serious?

2065
02:07:45,440 --> 02:07:53,360
So this is the point is if we're truly going to foster this thin red line, thin blue line,

2066
02:07:53,360 --> 02:08:00,400
then when someone is acting aggressively, pissed off, whatever the thing, always in

2067
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:04,560
their room with the door closed, whatever it is, that's our opportunity to reach out

2068
02:08:04,560 --> 02:08:09,760
and give them an environment to be vulnerable and ask for help.

2069
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,440
And I think this is what's so powerful about men and women that have been through this

2070
02:08:13,440 --> 02:08:20,680
crucible and now have written books and come on podcasts and do talks is now their initial

2071
02:08:20,680 --> 02:08:24,400
vulnerability opens the door for other people to be vulnerable.

2072
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:28,920
But if you're there like, oh, just, if any of you have any problem, open door policy,

2073
02:08:28,920 --> 02:08:29,920
just call me anytime.

2074
02:08:29,920 --> 02:08:34,080
That's not going to work because you're on your ivory tower expecting someone to then

2075
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:35,280
be vulnerable.

2076
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:40,640
You yourself have to say when I was a single dad and I was going through paramedic school

2077
02:08:40,640 --> 02:08:45,480
and a divorce simultaneously, that was the fucking lowest I've ever been.

2078
02:08:45,480 --> 02:08:49,440
That's a great way to now initiate a conversation for someone else who's dying.

2079
02:08:49,440 --> 02:08:53,120
But again, if you're like, as you said, you know, well, you have four drownings before

2080
02:08:53,120 --> 02:08:58,520
you start cracking, then you are, I mean, like you said, to me, that screams of a guy

2081
02:08:58,520 --> 02:09:00,880
that probably drinks himself to sleep every night.

2082
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:06,520
So having the courage to be vulnerable yourself, if you, and I've always said this, not all

2083
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:08,220
of us are hurting all the time.

2084
02:09:08,220 --> 02:09:12,840
So if you're that person, which a lot of times was me, because I was, I've said this many

2085
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:21,120
times, I just won some bizarre lottery genetically where I grew up on a farm, had loads of siblings.

2086
02:09:21,120 --> 02:09:23,940
I had nature, I had exercise, I had all the things.

2087
02:09:23,940 --> 02:09:29,680
So the trauma that I had over and over again, there was an equal and opposite healing thing.

2088
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:36,000
Just by chance embedded into my childhood, which I think gave me, you know, the foundation

2089
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:41,480
that allowed me to process and deal with some of the horrible shit and the divorces and

2090
02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:46,080
all the other things in a slightly different way than some of my peers who are no less

2091
02:09:46,080 --> 02:09:47,840
of a man or woman than me.

2092
02:09:47,840 --> 02:09:49,480
They just had a different upbringing.

2093
02:09:49,480 --> 02:09:52,320
Some of them, like we said, were even, you know, abused and what kinds of stuff, you

2094
02:09:52,320 --> 02:09:55,880
know, as children, their foundation is just different.

2095
02:09:55,880 --> 02:10:01,280
So if you are genuinely doing well, as you said, good for you, then be the fucking shoulder

2096
02:10:01,280 --> 02:10:03,360
for other people to lean on.

2097
02:10:03,360 --> 02:10:04,360
Lift people up.

2098
02:10:04,360 --> 02:10:05,520
Don't look down your nose.

2099
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:09,720
But chances are, if you are looking down your nose, that's a huge red flag that you need

2100
02:10:09,720 --> 02:10:12,880
to look in the mirror because you're probably not dealing with your own shit and you're

2101
02:10:12,880 --> 02:10:15,520
projecting on other people.

2102
02:10:15,520 --> 02:10:20,320
No, absolutely.

2103
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:25,960
You know, I think in a position, if you want to be a mentor or a leader or just, you know,

2104
02:10:25,960 --> 02:10:29,920
an informal leader, if you're in a firehouse and you want people to come talk to you, first,

2105
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:32,540
you have to be trustworthy.

2106
02:10:32,540 --> 02:10:34,240
Are you the person that I can bring this to?

2107
02:10:34,240 --> 02:10:37,760
And then secondly, what are you going to do with that information?

2108
02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:40,920
Are you going to use it to help me or are you going to use it to hurt me?

2109
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:46,640
And when I started getting help, the clinician I was working with, he said, you know, you're

2110
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:49,960
never going to tell people what's wrong or that you're getting help, but they're going

2111
02:10:49,960 --> 02:10:52,480
to notice the change and they're going to want a piece of that.

2112
02:10:52,480 --> 02:10:56,080
I'm like, okay, whatever, you know, whatever doc.

2113
02:10:56,080 --> 02:11:01,680
And within two weeks of him saying that, I was visited by seven deputies, five who didn't

2114
02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:03,560
even work for me.

2115
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:04,840
And that's a big deal.

2116
02:11:04,840 --> 02:11:07,240
I mean, they sat in my office in tears.

2117
02:11:07,240 --> 02:11:08,560
I feel like this, I feel like that.

2118
02:11:08,560 --> 02:11:09,760
They used the word that I use.

2119
02:11:09,760 --> 02:11:12,360
I feel like this and there's no way out.

2120
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:14,880
Well, do you think I'm that?

2121
02:11:14,880 --> 02:11:16,800
Well, no, God, no.

2122
02:11:16,800 --> 02:11:18,120
Let me tell you my story.

2123
02:11:18,120 --> 02:11:21,840
Briefly, I didn't go into it because I fully didn't understand it myself at the time.

2124
02:11:21,840 --> 02:11:26,920
But to be able to show that vulnerability and I think bringing that larger lesson that

2125
02:11:26,920 --> 02:11:31,200
you just brought up that you need those people standing in the academies.

2126
02:11:31,200 --> 02:11:34,240
You know, yes, here's a clinician and they're a white coat.

2127
02:11:34,240 --> 02:11:35,720
It's a pretty white coat.

2128
02:11:35,720 --> 02:11:39,200
However, this is what it looks like for us.

2129
02:11:39,200 --> 02:11:44,760
In starting off with, there I was no shit in paramedic school, getting ready to go through

2130
02:11:44,760 --> 02:11:47,280
a divorce and it was awful.

2131
02:11:47,280 --> 02:11:52,640
Yes, you're somebody that I can listen to because you're giving me your lived experience

2132
02:11:52,640 --> 02:11:55,640
and you're being raw about it.

2133
02:11:55,640 --> 02:11:59,280
I don't think anybody's served by just talking to a clinician.

2134
02:11:59,280 --> 02:12:02,920
You know, on the cellular level, this is what's going to happen if you experience this because

2135
02:12:02,920 --> 02:12:07,080
I was involved in an officer involved shooting and I had to go see the psychologist the day

2136
02:12:07,080 --> 02:12:11,560
after and he's telling me how I'm going to feel and why I feel this way and all of this

2137
02:12:11,560 --> 02:12:12,560
stuff.

2138
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:16,680
But I don't even know that this asshole has ever been to a range.

2139
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:23,000
Like 24 hours ago, shot and killed somebody and you're telling me that I'm going to feel

2140
02:12:23,000 --> 02:12:25,800
angry that I'm going to feel sad that I'm going to feel happy.

2141
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:29,480
All I feel right now is that I want to kick you into a bottomless pit and scream, this

2142
02:12:29,480 --> 02:12:30,520
is Sparta.

2143
02:12:30,520 --> 02:12:31,800
You're an asshole.

2144
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:34,160
You know, that serves no one.

2145
02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:38,760
Certainly didn't serve me, but having people who have walked and lived it, as you said,

2146
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:43,100
to have the courage to stand up and tell that to others, to serve others in that way with

2147
02:12:43,100 --> 02:12:44,320
your own story.

2148
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:45,920
Yeah, buddy.

2149
02:12:45,920 --> 02:12:48,160
That's courage.

2150
02:12:48,160 --> 02:12:49,680
That's great courage.

2151
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:56,560
Well, speaking of stories then, so your book Hiding in Plain Sight, what made you decide

2152
02:12:56,560 --> 02:12:58,980
to pick up the pen and start writing?

2153
02:12:58,980 --> 02:13:03,640
And then did you find an element of catharsis putting it on paper?

2154
02:13:03,640 --> 02:13:07,120
That's a great question.

2155
02:13:07,120 --> 02:13:11,440
When I retired, I was looking, you know, the off ramp to retirement, what do I want to

2156
02:13:11,440 --> 02:13:12,440
be when I grow up?

2157
02:13:12,440 --> 02:13:15,720
Because I was 49 when I retired.

2158
02:13:15,720 --> 02:13:19,520
Maybe enough to be positioned where I never had to do anything.

2159
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:23,480
And you know, I said, I'll teach undergrad.

2160
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:27,400
I'll be a teacher or professor because that's what I love to do.

2161
02:13:27,400 --> 02:13:32,400
Or I'll go work for DoD and be a contractor, you know, do thinking person stuff.

2162
02:13:32,400 --> 02:13:34,280
I'll go teach bombs and bad guys.

2163
02:13:34,280 --> 02:13:37,240
All the things that people expected me to say.

2164
02:13:37,240 --> 02:13:40,040
But as I walked out the door on that last day, I said, I'm going to write a book.

2165
02:13:40,040 --> 02:13:41,680
Somebody said, what about?

2166
02:13:41,680 --> 02:13:44,400
I said, all of this.

2167
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:46,280
Oh shit, what's he going to say?

2168
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:51,960
And it was a joke, but it wasn't like, yeah, man, maybe I should.

2169
02:13:51,960 --> 02:13:55,640
I've had a lot of people when I tell stories and people ask me at parties to tell me something

2170
02:13:55,640 --> 02:13:57,200
and like, man, you should write a book.

2171
02:13:57,200 --> 02:13:59,840
I'm like, I'm too lazy for that shit.

2172
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:08,300
So when I retired, I started journaling and you know, I was very dismissive of it at first

2173
02:14:08,300 --> 02:14:09,300
and for years.

2174
02:14:09,300 --> 02:14:10,600
Journaling doesn't work.

2175
02:14:10,600 --> 02:14:11,600
Talking about your feelings is stupid.

2176
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:14,440
We're not going to comb each other's hair and paint our nails.

2177
02:14:14,440 --> 02:14:15,440
That's all dumb shit.

2178
02:14:15,440 --> 02:14:16,440
It doesn't work.

2179
02:14:16,440 --> 02:14:19,160
Yeah, it does.

2180
02:14:19,160 --> 02:14:20,160
Was it cathartic?

2181
02:14:20,160 --> 02:14:21,160
Absolutely.

2182
02:14:21,160 --> 02:14:29,080
For the first time, I had a conversation with a blank screen and I found that there was

2183
02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:30,080
no judgment.

2184
02:14:30,080 --> 02:14:32,720
It was amazing, James.

2185
02:14:32,720 --> 02:14:34,520
Like I'm not being judged for the shit that I'm saying.

2186
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:35,640
I don't have to measure words.

2187
02:14:35,640 --> 02:14:39,080
I don't think I have to think of how this story is going to be used to harm me or hurt

2188
02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:40,720
my career or embarrass me.

2189
02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:42,480
Man, it just poured out of me.

2190
02:14:42,480 --> 02:14:45,480
I mean, there were days that I sat down with a cup of coffee and next thing you know, it's

2191
02:14:45,480 --> 02:14:49,200
five o'clock in the afternoon and family is coming home from work and school.

2192
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:54,160
And you know, I'd put down 10,000 words just pouring out of me.

2193
02:14:54,160 --> 02:14:56,440
Things that I had never put words to.

2194
02:14:56,440 --> 02:15:00,920
And there were a couple of occasions when I was recalling some of the vignettes that

2195
02:15:00,920 --> 02:15:07,600
are now on my book and some that didn't make it into the book that I had to push away from.

2196
02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:12,480
I mean, visceral churning and response.

2197
02:15:12,480 --> 02:15:17,000
There's one that I had to push away from for six weeks, not a keystroke in six weeks because

2198
02:15:17,000 --> 02:15:22,480
I was quite honestly, I was plotting how I'm going to kill this person the day they get

2199
02:15:22,480 --> 02:15:25,920
out of prison, not a prison, that they will not see another sunrise.

2200
02:15:25,920 --> 02:15:33,360
Man, I had it planned, dreamt about it, wished that I had done it that day.

2201
02:15:33,360 --> 02:15:41,360
And it put me in some dark spots, but I was able to, once I did the journal and I had

2202
02:15:41,360 --> 02:15:48,080
about 77,000 words into this journal, I mean, that's a 300 page paperback book.

2203
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:51,760
I started reading it to see what I thought about myself.

2204
02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:57,680
And here I am looking at this hero's journey and I had written myself as a victim and a

2205
02:15:57,680 --> 02:16:02,580
bystander, which is bullshit because anybody who has ever met me or had a conversation

2206
02:16:02,580 --> 02:16:07,480
with me would have a hard time believing I've ever seen myself as either one of those things.

2207
02:16:07,480 --> 02:16:14,880
And I had to stop and put on my clinician hat, not a clinician by the way, and said,

2208
02:16:14,880 --> 02:16:17,240
man, how are you speaking to yourself?

2209
02:16:17,240 --> 02:16:19,160
What are the things you tell yourself?

2210
02:16:19,160 --> 02:16:21,680
Why are you saying these things?

2211
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:24,920
And I dove into each and every one of those things.

2212
02:16:24,920 --> 02:16:30,120
And that was probably January of this year.

2213
02:16:30,120 --> 02:16:32,920
And I started diving into and pulling that stuff apart.

2214
02:16:32,920 --> 02:16:38,120
So yes, it was cathartic because I had to answer to those things.

2215
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:43,360
I had to own them and see them for what they were, my successes, my shortfalls, and what

2216
02:16:43,360 --> 02:16:45,120
was my culpability in these things?

2217
02:16:45,120 --> 02:16:46,120
Where did I go wrong?

2218
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:48,240
What could I have done better?

2219
02:16:48,240 --> 02:16:52,080
Which led to the ownership of my shit.

2220
02:16:52,080 --> 02:16:57,560
And I put that stuff aside in April.

2221
02:16:57,560 --> 02:17:03,600
And the end of March of 2024, operator syndrome, the book was released and I devoured the damn

2222
02:17:03,600 --> 02:17:04,600
thing.

2223
02:17:04,600 --> 02:17:07,560
And it gave me a lot more clarity than just the study did and some of the interviews I'd

2224
02:17:07,560 --> 02:17:08,560
heard them in.

2225
02:17:08,560 --> 02:17:14,200
And I took that 77,000 words, put it aside and I started hammering away on what became

2226
02:17:14,200 --> 02:17:16,000
hiding in plain sight.

2227
02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:18,200
And that's 77,000 words.

2228
02:17:18,200 --> 02:17:21,000
There's maybe one or two vignettes that actually made to the book.

2229
02:17:21,000 --> 02:17:25,640
The rest of that stuff is what I saw and what I own afterwards, how I'm really speaking

2230
02:17:25,640 --> 02:17:27,240
to myself.

2231
02:17:27,240 --> 02:17:32,960
And understanding that people see me in a very different way than I saw myself.

2232
02:17:32,960 --> 02:17:35,400
It's very different.

2233
02:17:35,400 --> 02:17:41,680
And so in owning that and finding the way forward, that's what became hiding in plain

2234
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:42,680
sight.

2235
02:17:42,680 --> 02:17:46,040
And I did a trip to Scotland, by the way, a beautiful country.

2236
02:17:46,040 --> 02:17:47,040
I loved it.

2237
02:17:47,040 --> 02:17:49,120
I did a yomp up there.

2238
02:17:49,120 --> 02:17:54,640
It's a forced rock march on the Cataran Trail in Scotland.

2239
02:17:54,640 --> 02:17:57,280
Beautiful, beautiful country.

2240
02:17:57,280 --> 02:18:03,120
And it was for a veterans charity, the Army Benevolent Fund in the UK.

2241
02:18:03,120 --> 02:18:08,000
And we were there with Ukrainians, most of them amputees.

2242
02:18:08,000 --> 02:18:14,040
I did a rock march behind a guy that had both legs amputated above the knee and both arms

2243
02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:15,520
blown off.

2244
02:18:15,520 --> 02:18:19,080
And he's doing a 25 mile rock march to the Scottish Highlands.

2245
02:18:19,080 --> 02:18:20,080
Perseverance.

2246
02:18:20,080 --> 02:18:22,920
Buddy, see that guy.

2247
02:18:22,920 --> 02:18:25,800
Anyway, I didn't want to go.

2248
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:26,800
It was through a charity.

2249
02:18:26,800 --> 02:18:32,480
So I was like, yeah, I just got to pay for my luggage fee, whatever.

2250
02:18:32,480 --> 02:18:33,560
Did not want to go.

2251
02:18:33,560 --> 02:18:34,560
I was pissed.

2252
02:18:34,560 --> 02:18:35,560
I was like, yeah, I'm not going to meet anybody.

2253
02:18:35,560 --> 02:18:37,400
This is not going to do me any good.

2254
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:38,400
I don't deserve this.

2255
02:18:38,400 --> 02:18:39,680
I shouldn't be here.

2256
02:18:39,680 --> 02:18:41,760
Other people need it more than me.

2257
02:18:41,760 --> 02:18:47,320
But when I landed in Germany, I met one guy that was on the plane.

2258
02:18:47,320 --> 02:18:54,520
By the time I got to baggage claim in Scotland, I found myself in a group of seven others.

2259
02:18:54,520 --> 02:19:00,680
And of the 1,700 people that were on the Yom, we were inseparable for that entire week.

2260
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:03,880
And I'm still in touch with those guys daily.

2261
02:19:03,880 --> 02:19:06,560
That's how I met Nick O'Kelly through one of the guys.

2262
02:19:06,560 --> 02:19:11,360
And anyway, speaking to those guys on the buses, on the long bus rides to and from the

2263
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:15,800
places that we went to go visit, I started telling some of my stories and some of my

2264
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:18,560
journey and some of the manuscript.

2265
02:19:18,560 --> 02:19:23,440
And one of the guys, he's like, bro, this is like a checklist for my life.

2266
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:26,600
I'm like, man, you were a door gunner for the 160th.

2267
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:28,800
You were a night stalker.

2268
02:19:28,800 --> 02:19:32,840
You're like, you were a death dealer in special operations aviation.

2269
02:19:32,840 --> 02:19:34,240
What do you mean?

2270
02:19:34,240 --> 02:19:35,840
You can relate to this.

2271
02:19:35,840 --> 02:19:38,800
We had a firefighter, we had a Marine, we had a bunch of guys for the 160th.

2272
02:19:38,800 --> 02:19:42,560
And they're just like, yeah, bro, you got a story.

2273
02:19:42,560 --> 02:19:46,120
And that gave me confidence.

2274
02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:52,520
And then of course, having the talk at the Comradery Foundation, I knew that there was

2275
02:19:52,520 --> 02:20:00,520
something there, but the catalyst moment for this book going to publish a young deputy

2276
02:20:00,520 --> 02:20:07,040
in comparison to me is a friend of mine, a guy that I knew well.

2277
02:20:07,040 --> 02:20:10,960
And I have shared the same last name, but we look very, very different.

2278
02:20:10,960 --> 02:20:13,900
He's short and I'm tall.

2279
02:20:13,900 --> 02:20:19,200
Every time we'd be around each other, he'd introduce me as Doug White, his brother.

2280
02:20:19,200 --> 02:20:23,720
Or we'd say, oh, like Johnson and Johnson from Die Hard, we're not related.

2281
02:20:23,720 --> 02:20:26,760
But every time I saw him, he gave me a great big hug.

2282
02:20:26,760 --> 02:20:28,760
I mean, like a spine straightening hug.

2283
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:31,360
He was always happy every time you saw him.

2284
02:20:31,360 --> 02:20:37,440
Top of the world, beautiful family, just an energetic smile that you just couldn't help

2285
02:20:37,440 --> 02:20:39,200
to be happy around him.

2286
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:47,640
He was a human warm hug and he took his own life.

2287
02:20:47,640 --> 02:20:51,240
And I didn't understand.

2288
02:20:51,240 --> 02:20:53,440
I mean, I understood, but I didn't understand it.

2289
02:20:53,440 --> 02:20:57,120
And it was a shock to everybody as they all are.

2290
02:20:57,120 --> 02:21:02,960
And of course, I thought to myself, you know, I've got this manuscript and I want to make

2291
02:21:02,960 --> 02:21:05,080
it a book, but I'm not.

2292
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:11,680
I know it landed on a bus full of operators and tough guys, but those are guys who kind

2293
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,040
of know me.

2294
02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:17,520
What happens if I give this to people who don't know me, who are going to judge me,

2295
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:19,960
who are going to think this about me?

2296
02:21:19,960 --> 02:21:21,180
I was scared.

2297
02:21:21,180 --> 02:21:22,240
I was.

2298
02:21:22,240 --> 02:21:28,060
I was scared, you know, is my organization going to be bad at me because I may speak

2299
02:21:28,060 --> 02:21:31,520
harshly of them or they may think that I'm speaking harshly of them.

2300
02:21:31,520 --> 02:21:32,720
I don't want to draw that higher.

2301
02:21:32,720 --> 02:21:36,600
I want to be done with them or, you know, all of the things.

2302
02:21:36,600 --> 02:21:43,360
But then I thought to myself, what if I had called him a week ago?

2303
02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:45,320
You know, I saw him on social media.

2304
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:46,680
I'm like, man, I don't reach out to him.

2305
02:21:46,680 --> 02:21:47,680
What a great guy.

2306
02:21:47,680 --> 02:21:48,680
Why didn't I?

2307
02:21:48,680 --> 02:21:50,880
Would it have made a difference?

2308
02:21:50,880 --> 02:21:52,320
And of course it's ridiculous.

2309
02:21:52,320 --> 02:21:54,920
My book had nothing to do with his journey or anything.

2310
02:21:54,920 --> 02:22:00,680
But what if, what if my calling him or reaching out or somebody else reaching out to him or

2311
02:22:00,680 --> 02:22:03,960
somebody else who had a story could give him something, something to hold on to for just

2312
02:22:03,960 --> 02:22:04,960
another day.

2313
02:22:04,960 --> 02:22:12,120
And it dawned on me, you know, my story is doing me no good sitting inside me if there's

2314
02:22:12,120 --> 02:22:15,680
one person.

2315
02:22:15,680 --> 02:22:17,040
So it had to be a book.

2316
02:22:17,040 --> 02:22:23,000
And I was having a conversation with Michelle the next morning and she said, you know what,

2317
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:27,840
putting myself in the position of his wife, knowing where you were, and I knew where you

2318
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:32,840
were if you had taken your life that night.

2319
02:22:32,840 --> 02:22:37,160
And I had the knowledge that I knew about it and I never took action to help you.

2320
02:22:37,160 --> 02:22:39,360
I don't know that I'd ever recover from that.

2321
02:22:39,360 --> 02:22:43,840
And she decided, she says, I'm not an author, but I want to write something in your book.

2322
02:22:43,840 --> 02:22:46,760
And I said, Hey, I'm not an author either.

2323
02:22:46,760 --> 02:22:49,320
So yes, please write it.

2324
02:22:49,320 --> 02:22:50,960
And she goes, well, you tell me what to put.

2325
02:22:50,960 --> 02:22:53,640
I said, no, what you just said.

2326
02:22:53,640 --> 02:22:55,760
And that became Michelle's preface to the book.

2327
02:22:55,760 --> 02:23:00,160
And then from that point on, it was, I want this book out.

2328
02:23:00,160 --> 02:23:01,160
I want this done.

2329
02:23:01,160 --> 02:23:03,880
I want a podcast to associate with the book.

2330
02:23:03,880 --> 02:23:04,880
I want to speak.

2331
02:23:04,880 --> 02:23:05,880
I want to tell the story.

2332
02:23:05,880 --> 02:23:10,600
And fast forward, here I am rambling to James Gearing.

2333
02:23:10,600 --> 02:23:11,600
So yes, please.

2334
02:23:11,600 --> 02:23:15,680
No, it is cathartic.

2335
02:23:15,680 --> 02:23:19,160
Because journaling, again, you're talking to something that's not going to judge you.

2336
02:23:19,160 --> 02:23:20,160
You're putting words to feelings.

2337
02:23:20,160 --> 02:23:22,080
I put words to feelings that I never had.

2338
02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:26,480
And when Michelle read the manuscript, she said, there's things in here we've never spoken

2339
02:23:26,480 --> 02:23:27,480
about.

2340
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:30,800
So sweetheart, there's things in there that I've never put words to that I did not know

2341
02:23:30,800 --> 02:23:31,800
impacted me.

2342
02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:36,160
And yet at some point crippled me for six weeks.

2343
02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:42,200
I mean, it's, I highly recommend journaling and more importantly, owning your shit and

2344
02:23:42,200 --> 02:23:48,160
being brave enough to understand that while you're sitting on this thinking about yourself,

2345
02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:52,280
there's other people out there that, as you said, are going to find permission or at least

2346
02:23:52,280 --> 02:23:57,160
find some shade in what you're saying and can step out a little bit into the light.

2347
02:23:57,160 --> 02:24:03,000
And the feedback that I've gotten and the opportunities and the people I've met have

2348
02:24:03,000 --> 02:24:09,120
absolutely enforced that thought in my brain that this was the right thing to do.

2349
02:24:09,120 --> 02:24:10,120
Absolutely.

2350
02:24:10,120 --> 02:24:14,520
And this is what's sad is obviously a lot of people write and they should.

2351
02:24:14,520 --> 02:24:16,200
I think everyone should write.

2352
02:24:16,200 --> 02:24:19,800
But you and I are obviously coming from exactly the same place.

2353
02:24:19,800 --> 02:24:21,480
It's not about the book sales.

2354
02:24:21,480 --> 02:24:24,280
It's about getting this message to as many people as possible.

2355
02:24:24,280 --> 02:24:28,280
And as we talked before we hit record, even with my latest one, my goal is to get it on

2356
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:33,320
the screen, not because I want to be a famous author turned screenwriter.

2357
02:24:33,320 --> 02:24:38,480
I just want this message to get as many people because as you said, what if, if it helped

2358
02:24:38,480 --> 02:24:44,800
one person that was going to reach for their gun and then they didn't, that a life's work

2359
02:24:44,800 --> 02:24:50,640
is worth a single life, which again goes back to our conversation earlier about toxic leadership

2360
02:24:50,640 --> 02:24:53,760
and cowardice.

2361
02:24:53,760 --> 02:24:57,240
Most of us listening would bend over backwards for a complete stranger.

2362
02:24:57,240 --> 02:25:03,260
We'd certainly bend over backwards for our own family or our first responder family.

2363
02:25:03,260 --> 02:25:08,320
And so you pour yourself in trying to just, whether it's a podcast episode, whether it's

2364
02:25:08,320 --> 02:25:15,520
a book or a blog you put out or a film or a TV show, what if that saved a life?

2365
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:17,400
The ripple effect of that single life.

2366
02:25:17,400 --> 02:25:21,800
So I'm so glad that you went on this journey and you put it out because it's going to be

2367
02:25:21,800 --> 02:25:23,120
way more than a life.

2368
02:25:23,120 --> 02:25:25,400
It's going to be many, many, many lives.

2369
02:25:25,400 --> 02:25:28,680
And then that in turn is going to affect so many.

2370
02:25:28,680 --> 02:25:32,160
My wife, she lost her boyfriend before me to suicide.

2371
02:25:32,160 --> 02:25:34,920
Think about all the lives that that's affected and her to this point.

2372
02:25:34,920 --> 02:25:38,520
Think about the multi-generational trauma of families that lose a loved one and what

2373
02:25:38,520 --> 02:25:41,600
that does to the kids and the spouse.

2374
02:25:41,600 --> 02:25:49,120
So the unseen impact of these courageously vulnerable stories that people like yourself

2375
02:25:49,120 --> 02:25:57,200
put out is so, so important, especially in a world of Kardashians and reality shows.

2376
02:25:57,200 --> 02:26:00,800
These are the stories that people need to be hearing, need to be present on.

2377
02:26:00,800 --> 02:26:01,800
Yeah.

2378
02:26:01,800 --> 02:26:03,640
I agree 100%.

2379
02:26:03,640 --> 02:26:06,680
You get snapshots of everybody else's life and they curate the things that they want

2380
02:26:06,680 --> 02:26:07,680
you to see.

2381
02:26:07,680 --> 02:26:19,680
Well, what you've done and kinder and it's just, it's amazing.

2382
02:26:19,680 --> 02:26:21,840
And one more light and everything that you've done.

2383
02:26:21,840 --> 02:26:26,640
Like you said, in your intro to the podcast, this is literally a free library of more than

2384
02:26:26,640 --> 02:26:29,800
a thousand episodes of stories.

2385
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:32,400
And each one seems to be more remarkable than the next.

2386
02:26:32,400 --> 02:26:40,240
It's just, man, the power in our stories and storytelling is something that I never understood.

2387
02:26:40,240 --> 02:26:43,400
And I began to understand it.

2388
02:26:43,400 --> 02:26:48,640
Another part of my journey is I watched a Ted Talk with now retired Lieutenant Colonel

2389
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:49,640
Scott Mann.

2390
02:26:49,640 --> 02:26:53,320
His Ted Talk was called The Generosity of Scars.

2391
02:26:53,320 --> 02:26:55,680
If you've seen it, it's fantastic.

2392
02:26:55,680 --> 02:26:57,840
If you've not seen it, go to YouTube and look at it.

2393
02:26:57,840 --> 02:27:02,160
I can promise you, if you don't start watching that on the edge of your seat, you will soon

2394
02:27:02,160 --> 02:27:03,480
be there.

2395
02:27:03,480 --> 02:27:08,320
But I watched it for the first time and he talks about the generosity of scars, the scars

2396
02:27:08,320 --> 02:27:13,680
that we carry, our stories and the power of sharing our stories and the relatability of

2397
02:27:13,680 --> 02:27:20,200
our stories to others and the power that it has to give them permission.

2398
02:27:20,200 --> 02:27:27,780
Basically through our connective journeys, I listened to it for the first time and not

2399
02:27:27,780 --> 02:27:32,880
only was I tearing up, but I was physically vibrating.

2400
02:27:32,880 --> 02:27:37,320
And it was right when I had came to the same conclusion that I need to do this book.

2401
02:27:37,320 --> 02:27:39,800
And it's like, man, how did I find this?

2402
02:27:39,800 --> 02:27:40,960
Why did this just pop up?

2403
02:27:40,960 --> 02:27:44,920
Why did the algorithm feed this to me now?

2404
02:27:44,920 --> 02:27:46,720
And man, I just knew it.

2405
02:27:46,720 --> 02:27:49,000
I was like, that's storytelling.

2406
02:27:49,000 --> 02:27:50,000
This is where it's at.

2407
02:27:50,000 --> 02:27:56,560
Lived experience and standing boldly, unafraid in front of other people and just being unfuckwothable,

2408
02:27:56,560 --> 02:27:57,560
man.

2409
02:27:57,560 --> 02:27:58,560
It's remarkable.

2410
02:27:58,560 --> 02:28:00,240
It's been a remarkable journey.

2411
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:03,440
I'm so grateful for the opportunity to come here today and speak to you and your listeners

2412
02:28:03,440 --> 02:28:04,440
about this.

2413
02:28:04,440 --> 02:28:09,920
It's just, it's been an experience that again, if you told me six months ago, I'd be here,

2414
02:28:09,920 --> 02:28:11,800
I'd say you're drinking.

2415
02:28:11,800 --> 02:28:17,480
Well, for people listening, if they want to buy the book itself, they want to reach out

2416
02:28:17,480 --> 02:28:24,320
to you on websites, social media, where are the best places to go?

2417
02:28:24,320 --> 02:28:31,000
Not that I want to make Bezos richer, but Amazon is what's driving book sales.

2418
02:28:31,000 --> 02:28:32,000
Not book sales.

2419
02:28:32,000 --> 02:28:33,000
I don't care about that.

2420
02:28:33,000 --> 02:28:37,460
I don't even know how much I really make off of a book, but that's what's driving its visibility

2421
02:28:37,460 --> 02:28:38,500
in other places.

2422
02:28:38,500 --> 02:28:39,760
And I want this to be everywhere.

2423
02:28:39,760 --> 02:28:43,280
So Amazon, just go to Hiding in Plains site, Doug White.

2424
02:28:43,280 --> 02:28:44,800
It'll show up.

2425
02:28:44,800 --> 02:28:47,920
The easier thing to do is go to dougwhiteofficial.com.

2426
02:28:47,920 --> 02:28:49,620
It's my website.

2427
02:28:49,620 --> 02:28:57,880
All the links for my podcast tell the story to engage with me, to meet with me, Instagram,

2428
02:28:57,880 --> 02:29:01,040
LinkedIn, my YouTube channel.

2429
02:29:01,040 --> 02:29:02,040
Everything is all there.

2430
02:29:02,040 --> 02:29:04,040
My link tree is there.

2431
02:29:04,040 --> 02:29:07,860
I would love to hear from anybody just to be able to share ideas and have conversations

2432
02:29:07,860 --> 02:29:11,080
or just to be available to people.

2433
02:29:11,080 --> 02:29:17,480
Building relationships and on this journey is, I'm finding, I'm able to parse through

2434
02:29:17,480 --> 02:29:23,120
the missionary versus mercenary in this space right now.

2435
02:29:23,120 --> 02:29:28,720
And I'm enjoying that because our lives are richer with the relationships we make and

2436
02:29:28,720 --> 02:29:32,920
the people that we can bring in and building those strong circles.

2437
02:29:32,920 --> 02:29:34,440
It's just going to make everybody better.

2438
02:29:34,440 --> 02:29:36,760
So please reach out to me, get the book.

2439
02:29:36,760 --> 02:29:41,400
I'm going to start doing the audible, even though James has done his own and has scared

2440
02:29:41,400 --> 02:29:44,480
the shit out of me trying to read my own book.

2441
02:29:44,480 --> 02:29:48,560
But I don't have to do different accents or anything, so I might be able to get through

2442
02:29:48,560 --> 02:29:49,560
it easier.

2443
02:29:49,560 --> 02:29:53,280
But I need to get on that because cops and firefighters and vets, well, we don't read

2444
02:29:53,280 --> 02:29:54,280
shit.

2445
02:29:54,280 --> 02:29:59,600
Our spouses do, but we're waiting for the movie, which by the way, kinder, I'm going

2446
02:29:59,600 --> 02:30:06,200
to have to watch that in pieces just like I'm reading in pieces because man, you are

2447
02:30:06,200 --> 02:30:08,320
a powerful writer.

2448
02:30:08,320 --> 02:30:09,680
It's incredible.

2449
02:30:09,680 --> 02:30:11,680
Just incredible, man.

2450
02:30:11,680 --> 02:30:13,880
I wish I had better words for it.

2451
02:30:13,880 --> 02:30:14,880
It's awesome.

2452
02:30:14,880 --> 02:30:15,880
Thank you, mate.

2453
02:30:15,880 --> 02:30:17,360
Well, it's just it's raw.

2454
02:30:17,360 --> 02:30:20,280
And it's the same with your book and so many others out there.

2455
02:30:20,280 --> 02:30:21,840
This is I've said this a lot.

2456
02:30:21,840 --> 02:30:25,460
Who is the Jocko Willink of police or fire?

2457
02:30:25,460 --> 02:30:26,460
There isn't that voice.

2458
02:30:26,460 --> 02:30:31,680
So the more of us that come out and whether it's writing a book or podcasts or like Scott

2459
02:30:31,680 --> 02:30:37,360
Mann, writing a play and acting in it, I mean, whatever your thing is, we need those voices,

2460
02:30:37,360 --> 02:30:38,360
like you said.

2461
02:30:38,360 --> 02:30:45,440
I love that kind of analogy that you gave because I am a lot of times in danger of being

2462
02:30:45,440 --> 02:30:48,480
meek, which, you know, humble and meek are two very different things.

2463
02:30:48,480 --> 02:30:51,920
And I'm meek and it's like, yeah, OK, well, you're worried about, you know, whatever

2464
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:54,840
the thing is, you don't want to be out front and center too much.

2465
02:30:54,840 --> 02:30:57,040
You don't want it to seem like you're trying to do this for money.

2466
02:30:57,040 --> 02:30:58,040
OK, that's fine.

2467
02:30:58,040 --> 02:31:12,120
But you said ultimately you have some.