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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

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When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX.

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Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10, Behind the Shield 10 for a one-time purchase.

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,

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former member of US Air Force Security Forces, special agent and current Detective Corporal of Maple Shade Police Department, Jeffrey Engel.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the military, his transition into the civilian law enforcement world,

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the differences between the two, working in Korea, the partnership they have in the UK, some career calls, his own powerful mental health story, the Boulder Crest program and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1,000 episodes now, so all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Jeff Engel. Enjoy.

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Well, Jeff, I want to start by saying thank you so, so much for taking the time and coming on the Behind the Shield this morning.

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No, I appreciate it, James. Thanks for the opportunity to spend the time with you here for a little while.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you today?

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Well, planet Earth finds me in southern New Jersey. It's a, you know, a balmy 10 degrees outside today.

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It's, you know, we feel like Mother Nature is obviously made it the world, but, you know, you never know what day.

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A couple days ago it was warm, now it's cold and, you know, we're all standing by the fire trying to keep warm. So South Jersey.

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Yeah, I wish I could say the same, but it's gorgeous outside, so I won't show you the window.

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That's all right. It's, I mean, the sun's burning, but it's not, it ain't hot.

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Yeah, those are my favorite days, though. I'm all for blue skies, you know, and cold. That's fine.

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It's just when it's gray and wet and cold, like England I grew up in, it's a little demoralizing.

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We were missing some rain for, you know, probably seven to eight weeks, I think we were missing rain, and then it just picked up from there and, you know, off it went.

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So then it's rained and it got super cold. So here we are, but it is winter, so we got to embrace that, right?

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Absolutely. Same as our summers here. They're brutal. Absolutely brutal.

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All right. Well, I would love to start at the very beginning of your story.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?

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Sure. Yeah, so I was born and raised in a medium-sized town here in South Jersey, Pensalkin, New Jersey, and then mom and dad, brother and sister growing up,

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brothers three years younger than me, and then my sister, I think she's nine and a half years younger than me.

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My parents, my dad was a, worked in a paper mill, started as a janitor, you know, and in those times it was, you know, different for him, you know, because he didn't know college education,

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but, you know, grew up was never got drafted in the military and, you know, went right into the workforce, brought himself up and, you know, sweeping the floors of just a paper mill and then started himself all the way up to the third in command before the industry was taken over by, you know, other industries, you know, across the pond and whatnot.

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But it was just a paper mill and worked that way. And then my mom, you know, worked in a Navy base for a short bit of time when I was born.

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And then I said, when my brother came around, she became a stay at home mom at that point and went from there.

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So, Pensalkin, New Jersey was, you know, where I was born and raised and, you know, grew up from there and, you know, with the Catholic school for the first nine years of my life.

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And then after that transitioned over to the public school education system, and it was probably the best decision I had ever made.

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You know, my parents were adamant about the Catholic school piece just because that's what their whole upbringing was, right?

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However, for me, it was it was it was a much needed change of pace. And I'm glad I did what I did and were able to articulate to them that, hey, you know, I need to try something different, right?

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Because just Catholic school space wasn't really my my style, you know.

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I've had a lot of people on here who are second generation, so, you know, their parents immigrated to to the U.S.

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And it's amazing hearing the immigration stories like I just had a neurosurgeon on the show and his dad came from Mexico, started as a mechanic, worked his way up to an electrical engineer, and then his son becomes a neurosurgeon.

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But obviously, there's another parallel in the states of people that are American that are born and bred here, you know, and their parents are born and bred here.

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But, you know, as you said, their initial entry into the workforce wasn't through an Ivy League school and they had to work their way up.

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And I think that's the real element of the American dream that I don't hear people talking about anymore.

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That in the states, the way the states are supposed to be, you know, dreams can come true.

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You can make anything of yourself.

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So when you've talked to your dad, what was it about that journey and his mindset that allowed him to go from sweeping floors to one of the highest in command?

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You know, I think I think you look at it, you know, in his work ethic.

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And it still shows to this day, right?

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He is a guy that is, you know, one has always given to me is never give up on your dream and what you're trying to do and achieve.

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Right. So you work hard and your work and ethic you put into things, obviously, is what you reprieve out of it.

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Right. So for him is, like I said, you start sweeping the floors and then you start getting interested in the machinery.

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And then you start taking over the the paper mill itself where they're running the forms and going from there and then, you know, jump into a management role.

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And then it just starts to expand and grow from there.

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And for him, I said it was his work ethic and drive is really what took him to where it is.

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And I think that's something we miss today, but it's a lot different in today's society.

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You mean, what was that shift in the paper industry?

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My my family on my dad's side had a printing industry.

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And so, again, when the Internet really kind of took off, a lot of that kind of dissipated.

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And then my ex father-in-law, he worked for Georgia Pacific and it was the same kind of thing.

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They were the huge paper manufacturers.

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And I'm sure they've seen a decline as well.

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Yep. So my dad's industry was Willamette Industries to start out over in Langhorn, Pennsylvania.

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And that was bought, I think, by Warehouser and somebody else.

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But obviously, you know, according to the same lines like corrugated box paper industry and they said that space, like I said, once it was outsourced across the pond and his business was shut down and they took over.

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I think it was a company called Domtar took over the business.

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But, you know, I don't really know the intricacies of that.

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Like I said, I was still young at the point when he, you know, when he wound up losing his job and separate stepping away from there.

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However, you know, the work he said he put into that is, you know, he started out there, you know, from just a young kid and, you know, kind of grew through his piece to get to where he was.

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And like I said, that alone showed a lot because we would always go tour the plant and come out and see it and spend the time out there and see, you know, all these giant.

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I mean, I'm talking giant paper rolls and you'd look at me like, my God, but like that was, you know, in the times when paper was still that big before it came in a little box, you know, 8.5 by 11.

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And they were cutting them up that way, you know, because old like the old school school printers where you would have it that way.

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So what about the impact of the forced redundancy and the loss of industry?

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When you look at Ohio and some other areas that were thriving a few decades ago, moving those jobs overseas can have a detrimental element to the actual town itself.

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Well, sure, I think it's interesting to actually you look at like the warehouses today, right?

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They're big, giant, empty buildings and, you know, mostly it's all made for now, Amazon and, you know, all partial shipments back and forth to and from right from all over the world.

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Where these buildings used to be filled with machines and, you know, folks who are working hard and they said this area, you know, can be seen for like Camden, New Jersey, for example, you know, Campbell,

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Homer Campbell Soup and, you know, RCA used to be down there and you see different, you know, place like that.

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But a lot of those places are now either on the ground or they're just just a building.

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Right. And it's not so much what it used to be. And his building is the same way.

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Right. They took over and, you know, all the equipment gets shipped or sent wherever they go.

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And, you know, they outsource it to wherever it has to go. And it's it's a shame because they said a lot of good people lost their jobs and some stay within the industry.

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And it was unfortunate to see it like the folks that were educated were the ones that stuck around, you know, because they had the experience and the education to go along with it with as the world evolved.

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You know, it was always pushed to get the paper. You need a degree. You need this to be able to advance.

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And, you know, he never had that. So, you know, he went up half in the pole to plug and go somewhere out and try to start himself all over again.

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That's an interesting parallel with the first responder professions.

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It's been a real push to get degrees and those kind of things.

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And sometimes the ones that excel in that maybe aren't actually good leaders.

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What is your perspective of that whole philosophy of needing needing the pieces of paper versus the actual journeyman's path?

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Well, right. And we can look at that, right. And you can see that, you know, with education, it's there, right.

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Like, the more you're educated, the better your brain works.

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And it's because you're using your brain accordingly. But, you know, with experience comes education as well.

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Right. And, you know, you look at the young enlisted folks when I started out as a young airman in the military, I'm sure we'll get to that down the road.

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But when you talk about how you work hard to achieve something, the education comes with the experience.

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Right. So using your hands, using your brain and going out and doing things, figuring things out because a book's not going to tell you everything.

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Right. So you still got to work around how you're going to get to what you need to do.

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And all that education grows with the experience and his perspective.

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And, you know, to this day, I mean, they said he's one of the smartest guys I know.

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I said you talk about a lot of that kind of stuff. And, you know, he talks circles around me for whatever that is.

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But, you know, and he's never had college, but, you know, he's a smart man and knows what he's got.

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You know, well, I think I'm seeing that firsthand there are college programs, there are community college programs,

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there are trade school programs that are phenomenal.

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And they're a very, very straight line to that profession or to that next step.

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But we've also got a very broken system in higher education where, for example, I did exercise physiology.

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And, you know, a lot of us were hoping that we would have all the tools to to then go on and be high level coaches at the end.

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And that wasn't the case. It was very, very academic.

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And a lot of these these paths almost groom people to be a professor, to teach the very thing that you were just learning from rather than go into the real world

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and apply these things firsthand.

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I think that's what trade schools and fire academies and police academies do really well.

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So, you know, please jump in.

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Yeah, I think there's a solid balance to write like you need to have kind of both sides of it.

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And I feel like it's either, you know, it's kind of like politics, right?

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You're either here, you're here, you know, but if there was a there was a fair middle ground as far as like education with experience,

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you know, even with these kids going in high school and, you know, even, you know, my young kids, you know, my kids are little.

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Right. And they're, you know, trying to figure out these math problems and trying to figure out how, you know, the education like, you know,

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one plus one is not one plus one or more as this whole long paragraph to figure out what one plus one is now.

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And, you know, whether there's a science behind that, I don't know.

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But, you know, when you look at it in the grander scheme of things, I feel like experience and education have to work hand in hand with each other to,

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you know, to make the best product ultimately, which is why a lot of people in our communities and the police, fire, EMS, military, you know,

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they get both of it as well as, you know, the discipline component, you know, to kind of keep them on task.

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Absolutely. All right. Well, going back to your timeline, when you were a school age, what were you playing and doing as far as sports and exercise?

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Well, I try, you know, a little bit of everything.

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I was always I started off, you know, peewee football, you know, a little bit of basketball, very little until I realized I couldn't jump or shoot a basket for the life of me.

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So I got away from that and then stuck mostly with baseball and soccer. And then as I kind of grew, you know, getting more closer to high school, I found wrestling,

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you know, one of the only sports you compete against yourself and others in the same aspect, right?

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Because it's just you and somebody else. Right. And it's survival to fitness.

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Ultimately, I fell in love with wrestling. You know, while it never really turned into anything major, you know, it was still something I enjoyed and kept me active.

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I did that through the course of high school and then, you know, which led up to my military career.

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So, well, let's get to that journey. When you were in high school, were you dreaming of the military or was there something else on your mind?

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No. So I was I was always I was called a nerd alert with the artwork.

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Like I used to love to draw computer like computer graphics and stuff like that was really big in my mind.

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Like I enjoyed trying just taking designs and making things and building stuff and spent a lot of time outside as a kid, like said, you know, messing around.

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So like the making and building and drawing and whatever, you know, having ideas and plans in your mind were always a thing of mine.

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And then shortly before that, I had an uncle that was a drill instructor in the Marine Corps.

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He's since passed, but, you know, was a very huge inspiration of mine.

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And, you know, he was always, you know, you know, a hard charger.

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And I always saw that, but it was never something I ever really understood.

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And like I said, you know, seeing that and knowing that the familial history of the military was something that was just very real, you know.

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But I had never really experienced it just because I, you know, it wasn't something we did when we were growing up.

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So it was always I was always an interest, but it's nothing that had piqued me to get say, hey, I'm leaving tomorrow to go out and join.

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And there was thoughts of it, you know, when I came to high school at the end, I'll never forget as I was getting ready to graduate high school.

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We're going to do the buddy program going into going into the Marine Corps.

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And my uncle, who obviously was a D.I., was came up to me and he's like, boy, you want to kill people for a living?

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And I'm like, not really. You know, I'm not really sure where, you know, where that's going to take me.

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You know what I mean? You know, because I have obviously had dreams and things of what you want to do growing up.

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But so I kind of throttled back of that and stuck with the EMS world because that was something I had done from like a sophomore in high school.

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I became a first responder and then transitioned to an EMT when I turned 18 years old.

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So it was kind of a space that I lived in. It was more to help people than to hurt people.

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You know what I mean? Yeah, I do completely.

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One hundred percent. Even said when, you know, if I was ever being forced to be in the military and be in a higher tier level, then the PJs would be the best fit

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because they're really like firefighters in the military, as opposed to the SEALs and the Delta guys that are running towards the bullets like you guys do in law enforcement.

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Right. And I said and they said, I, you know, taking myself to the military career, like, you know, when I joined the Air Force in 2001, it was prior to September 11th.

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And, you know, it was a thought of mine. And I had a real close friend of mine.

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She decided she was going to join the military and it was like, you know, out of out of chance.

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I was like, you know what? Screw it. What do I I'm, you know, either going to become a paramedic or I was going to do something else in my life.

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So I figured why not join the military to get the experience?

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And I walked myself into the recruits office and signed the papers and I was off. Off I went.

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Just prior to that, talk to me about your experience as an EMT.

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I think a lot of us, you know, we we live in regular society and then you end up, you know, working in a profession like law enforcement or EMS or fire.

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And you all of a sudden are looking behind the curtain now and you're like, oh, you know, sure, it's a pretty jarring reality when you're a young first responder.

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So what were those couple of years like for you?

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They had like an Explorer program for EMS at this first aid squad in a small town next to where I grew up.

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And, you know, I joined over there to keep myself busy and stay engaged in that.

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You know, I found something I liked and started riding the ambulance, like I said, as a first responder.

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And, you know, we're right in the back of the rig and you're assisting the paramedics and you're assisting the other grown EMTs with all the stuff.

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We're grabbing the supplies and doing that.

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But you're experiencing all the the blood, guts, gore and death and everything else you want to see.

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You know, at a young age, right. And, you know, it just kind of became a thing.

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I got to carry a pager and get the respond to calls and, you know, do all this fun stuff.

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But, you know, it kind of just transitioned and made me grow up a little bit faster, I guess, in a sense, just because you saw things and experienced things that, you know,

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normal people don't really ever really get to see unless you're watching it on TV or you come to happenstance or show up on it.

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You know, yeah, absolutely.

181
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Well, walk me through your journey into the Air Force and then what is your 9-11 story, too, because that's a pretty unique place to be just a few months prior.

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Yeah, we all remember that, right.

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And, you know, so I joined, I walked myself in the recruiter's office back probably February, March 2001.

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And after I said, my good friend of mine, she joined the military and I walked in there and I met up with old Staff Sergeant Mark Cucci, who was my recruiter at the time.

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And, you know, I always had an interest in it and were there wasn't sure where to go.

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And he's like, hey, come on in, sat me down and, you know, he's promising me the world and, you know, they're salesmen, right.

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So they sell you everything they want you to hear.

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Right. And, you know, it looked amazing and whatnot.

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So he went up, signed me up for security forces, which is, you know, military police for the Air Force and signed the papers.

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And May 1st, I left and off I went to the Wild Blue Yonder, went to basic and basic was just a run of the mill, you know, normal.

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Everybody experience kind of thing, right.

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You're yelling, screaming, push ups, setups, you know, run a move and learn and grow.

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And I transitioned right to the schoolhouse.

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Security forces always down at Lackland Air Force Base.

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It was hot. Nothing I was used to, you know, coming out of the northeast and you're down in, you know, Texas itself.

196
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So I wound up doing a schoolhouse there and then we graduated.

197
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Let me see. We graduated September 7th, 2001, four days prior to September 11th.

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And, you know, we're doing our out processing and while I was there, I hadn't gotten orders yet.

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And, you know, we're all kind of sitting around and just waiting for our, you know, wherever our assignments were going to be, not predicting anything was ever going to happen.

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Right. And then I was out processing at the dental clinic at Lackland Air Force Base when the planes hit the towers.

201
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And I can remember trying to call home and, you know, with home being up in the northeast, you're like, you know, full blown panic mode.

202
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I'm 21 years old trying to figure out, you know, what's what.

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I wound up finding my getting a hold of my family.

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You know, we watched on the news and the dental clinic and then immediately after that, it was an all call recall.

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We're thrown into force protection, con delta. And, you know, we're sitting on the gates, you know, brand new certified security force members,

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you know, sitting out there ready to rock and roll and, you know, not knowing what's going to happen and everything.

207
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Everything then becomes a threat. Right. And we don't really ever know what what's happening there.

208
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And then two days later, I got orders to South Korea, which was kind of a wake up call because I never had predicted ever in my life to be flying overseas to spend time.

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And they said not knowing what's going on in the world was definitely a wake up call.

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What was your experience in Korea? Obviously, the tensions have kind of, you know, undulated over the last couple of decades.

211
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But what was your lens in that that particular time?

212
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So so Korea was interesting was all force protection. Right.

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So I was I ran I sat on a flight line for the entire year that I was there and, you know,

214
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is, you know, in a Humvee freezing and cold in the wintertime and hot summer and, you know,

215
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garden F-16s and the the eight tens that were there at the time.

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And, you know, it was a little bit of a learning curve because I had never left the country or been out anywhere outside of my home state.

217
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Right. So, you know, automatically be emerged right into Korean culture.

218
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It was interesting. And, you know, downtown Osan was always interesting because, you know,

219
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not that it was ever, you know, I always say it's like human trafficking was not really ever looked upon at that point.

220
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But when you look back on it, you're like, wow, like they would fly the Russians in, they would have the Filipinos in.

221
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They would have different cultures in the bars working for the American military members.

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And you would go in and you have to buy these little juicy cup drinks and, you know, they would drink so many of them.

223
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And then they got a free pass for the night if they sold so many.

224
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But, you know, they would be friends and some would exploit it for me.

225
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You know, it was kind of an interesting space, but you never really knew what they were or why they were doing there.

226
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But they were there. But they were always different.

227
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You never had the same people at the same places throughout the time.

228
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So eating the food and, you know, kind of getting used to that culture was, you know, interesting itself.

229
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They said, but I love Korean food now. It was just at that time, it was definitely a culture shock because, you know,

230
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eating raw cabbage, kimchi and, you know, trying to figure out, you know, what's what, these spices and all the things they got going on.

231
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It's totally different animal.

232
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There is kind of an arrogance sometimes towards the way we look at the US, you know, with the greatest country in the world.

233
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And it's sad because there are so many countries that do certain things really well that if we had some humility, we could learn from.

234
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And just to preface that, if you look at us and how we rank in education, if you look at the obesity crisis, I mean, there is room for improvement.

235
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When you look at the Korean culture, were there any things that you remember being impressed by that maybe would be good if applied here in the US?

236
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I mean, technology obviously is one thing. I mean, they're way up to speed on their technology.

237
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And I said they're very humble people.

238
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You know, I enjoyed we had a guy that was, you know, we became friends with.

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He was his father was the mayor of the area where we were hanging out most of the time downtown.

240
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And he got to take us around and show us the things.

241
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But like just to see a different perspective at 21 years old and how they live compared to how we lived and the way things were like phones were a thing over there.

242
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And like they were very well dressed and like they seem to be trending on like styles and like things that they had that way.

243
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And it was interesting to kind of watch and see, you know, as you know, when you come home, it's like, oh, you got all this nice stuff.

244
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And it's like you get over there and it's like, well, it's different, but it's nicer than what we have here.

245
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But like I said, even with the food and going back to that is, you know, their food's all there's there's not all the junk's in the food.

246
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Right. So you're eating quality food and, you know, going out and like, you know, a mushroom house and you're eating all all types of mushrooms and not the tripe kind,

247
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but they just quality, wholesome food, you know, built in there.

248
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And it was it was good. Like I said, it was very much a life changing experience to kind of give you a better appreciation for what we have compared to we have here.

249
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Absolutely. Beautiful. All right. Well, then talk to me about after Korea.

250
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So after Korea, I went back, came to MacDill Air Force Base that was in October 2002.

251
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So obviously, we're still in the flight of all the chaos in the world.

252
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And, you know, they're still doing whatever they're doing here on the war of terror and just everything's kind of ramping up at that point.

253
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And I arrived at MacDill Air Force Base again, like I said, living in Tampa, Florida was another great place.

254
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You know, Florida is always, you know, I always got a heart in Florida because I love that place.

255
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But it was it was interesting because I said the MacDill Air Force Base is centrally located on the east or the west coast of Florida,

256
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like in between St. Petersburg from on the west coast and in Tampa, you know, right there.

257
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And at Tampa, you know, there's that was called a Tampa stand, but like there's special operations command, Marsox down there.

258
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You got central command. So there's a lot of different things happening at that base.

259
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And there's a lot of powerful people there as well.

260
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So when I got there, General Franks, I think, was the commander sent come at the time.

261
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And, you know, we had a couple of different missions, which was law enforcement and force protection at that point.

262
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But we wound up myself and my roommate, actually from Korea, we landed on the Marine Unit,

263
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which was probably the best job in the Air Force because we were only 24 hour, 24 seven Marine unit active in the Air Force at that time.

264
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We were on a boat, you know, patrolling the seven point two miles of coastlines back and forth, you know, on our shift.

265
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And, you know, we weren't bothered by flight.

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We weren't half. You didn't have to worry about dealing with all the noise of the base.

267
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And you said you go out on a boat and your whole mission was to protect the coastline.

268
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You know, and it was quite a quite a surreal experience because it was an all weather thing.

269
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Right. If it's raining, if it's, you know, it never snowed, obviously.

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But if it was rough out, you still had to go out and still had to do your job.

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And it was, you know, quite a remarkable experience, to say the least.

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Obviously, if you think about like the Miami area, there's a lot of, you know, people trying to kind of immigrate from different countries in the Caribbean area.

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What was some of the things that you encountered when you were working in that particular role?

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Right. So we we would have a lot of people that were just curious.

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We had a lot of fishermen because around the base, they would have the the mangroves and, you know, the different spaces where, you know, the snook would like to come run and hide.

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So you dealt with a lot of fishermen.

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But then every once in a while you would have because of what was going on there, you would have people rolling a boat and they would show up and they would penetrate the line and we'd stop them and challenge them and have a conversation.

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And, you know, they really couldn't explain why they were there.

279
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Right. And you'd kick them loose, you know, whether you were, you know,

280
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handing them out a ticket for a magistrate court to go to go to court or just to get capture or fill interview cards, adapt capture data.

281
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Right. We'd be out there just trying to figure out the why of what they're doing there.

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And then, like I said, you would see them on one side and the other ship would deal with them a couple of weeks later.

283
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And there was never really a rhyme or reason why you dealt with them.

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But, you know, but we obviously know today that, you know, whether just collect an intel or trying to get that picture or just, you know, they just need to see something that show a pattern of life, you know,

285
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built in that space. You never really know where that falls, you know.

286
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Absolutely. When I looked at your LinkedIn, it said special agent, but it said RAF.

287
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Is that attached to some sort of UK base?

288
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Yeah. So so how how my career went into like a little further and I'm still involved, you know, I'm still a reservist at this point.

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When I transitioned out of active duty from security forces, I, you know, in 2005, I separated active duty and I prior to punching the punching the ticket to go out.

290
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I had applied to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations as a criminal investigator and nothing that never ever thought it would take me into that space.

291
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But, you know, I wound up finding it and met some folks when I was deployed for a short time in Kurdistan down range.

292
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But I talked to these folks and, you know, I'd really taken a peak interest in their job and what they were doing.

293
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So I applied on the reserve side and one of getting picked up as a reservist for them and then said became a special agent.

294
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But what, you know, as that course of my career took me off is I'm currently assigned over at RAF,

295
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Milton Hall, which is over in England, as my reserve assignment, which is obviously interesting in itself,

296
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especially as a reservist, because I only go a couple of times, you know, you know, short bit of time in a year.

297
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So interesting. And what what what is kind of an overview of the special agent role in the Air Force specifically?

298
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Right. So we we investigate all felony crimes related to the, you know, the military, the Air Force specifically.

299
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And, you know, we we we have a dual headed mission where we do criminal and counterintelligence work.

300
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Majority of that space is, you know, all it depends on what side of the house you work on.

301
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But a lot of times people come into the criminal side and they either find themselves going to work in fraud or they're going to go work in criminal or counterintelligence.

302
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:29,800
So they're going to go work in a different section that does whatever their mission is going to be.

303
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And throughout the country, you know, we're on every base throughout there.

304
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And you said anytime something bad happens, you know, related to a military member or, you know, against the base or all these drones flying, you know, whatever, whatever comes out to be,

305
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you know, we're we're taking a look at it to see, you know, what's going on and finding out if there's a threat to the base and installation.

306
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You know, we're detached, but we're we're there. You know what I mean?

307
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So I've had quite a few people on the show, some of whom are victims of this, some of whom have just talked about it, but the prevalence of sexual assault within the military.

308
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What is your lens on on that whole theme and how prevalent it actually is?

309
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So I obviously can't speak numbers, but it does happen right there, you know, no matter where you are.

310
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And, you know, and I think it's very, very visible in the military side of things, right, because it's so small.

311
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Right. And the military force being as big as they are, but they're also very small.

312
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And you're not expecting to find stuff like that happen in the military.

313
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Right. However, you know, when people are making advances or they're doing things to folks, whether they like it or not,

314
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you know, it's the perception of how one perceives it to, you know, portray it as, hey, he sexually assaulted me or he inappropriately touched me or, you know, it's, you know, it's a it's a boundary.

315
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Right. And some people come from different areas and don't see it as one way.

316
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But, you know, you raise the flag on it and, you know, it's there.

317
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I mean, it's very prevalent. I mean, it happens.

318
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It's not nobody's, you know, invincible for me from it, you know, I mean, because I said, no matter where you go, whenever it is, you know, everybody's going to have an experience, you know, whether it's good or bad.

319
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And they said that in that in that sexual assault piece, you know, some seem to be, you know, appropriate, not appropriate, but like some are portrayed because they were told to do it and not necessarily how they were seen or somebody else saw it.

320
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Right. And then it's our job to obviously figure out what happened. Right.

321
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So you find the facts and you present the facts to the command and the command makes the decision from there. Right.

322
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But, you know, other people are true victims of it. Right.

323
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And somebody else, you know, whether they went on a date and somebody did something that was not appropriate or, you know, so there's a lot of in between from there with both end of spectrum is it's very minor to very major.

324
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:51,360
And they said it happens, you know, across, you know, across the planet, unfortunately.

325
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And I said, especially when you travel across the way and like you've seen it where, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend or husband, wife or, you know, dating one gets deployed and when they come back and then all this sexual assault to me.

326
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And it may or may not have been right. And our job is to find that.

327
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And like I said, sometimes you find out that they were having an affair and that they were just embarrassed.

328
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And they said that that's what happened. But, you know, but that's our job is to find those facts out.

329
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You know, they said, I will never take it away from the victims of a crime.

330
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Right. Because, you know, they are true victims.

331
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And they said, you want to make sure that, you know, they have their voice at the end of the day.

332
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And they said nothing to ever take away from them.

333
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But, you know, sometimes it's hard in our shoes to have to go down the path of having to experience their worst day.

334
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Right. And then portray it to the command and your leadership to say, hey, this is what this person experienced.

335
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,160
And this is the why. Right. And those facts will come out.

336
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And like I said, the decisions made with the command to make those decisions and how they're going to handle that.

337
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Right. But it's sad. You know, it's sad to see.

338
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You wish it could never happen, but it does, unfortunately.

339
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And we obviously want to make sure that, you know, that the lines being held where it needs to be held and there's zero tolerance for it.

340
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Right. Because it's just not acceptable.

341
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,080
Well, that was the military law enforcement side.

342
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What made you make the decision to get into the municipal side?

343
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So my grandfather was a police chief and he was a police chief in a small town.

344
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:23,160
I never met the man, but I said he was he was a supposedly a very stand up, you know, well known individual.

345
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,480
And everybody loved the guy. And, you know, he was the guy to go to.

346
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,200
And my mom always talked high of him.

347
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:35,000
And, you know, getting out of the military, you know, at that time, you know, police work was very hard to get into.

348
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:43,480
Right. Like it was it was it was a very hard challenge to get into that space because, you know, you would take a test and then there would be hundreds of people, you know,

349
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,680
aligning to take a test and then you have to compete against them to get into the runnings of the police department.

350
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:53,680
But, you know, we reversed back to when I left EMS going into the military.

351
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,240
The town I worked in is.

352
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,600
The town I worked in as an EMT, I had got to become friendly with a bunch of the cops there.

353
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:08,920
And once I had known them, when I came out of the military, like, hey, you should come over and join us, took the civil service test and jumped into the police world.

354
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,080
And, you know, going from being a military policeman to a civilian policeman was obviously majorly different.

355
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,200
But it was definitely an experience, to say the least.

356
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:23,280
And that's kind of what drew me to that space. And, you know, once I found that I loved it and I couldn't stop.

357
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:30,440
It's so interesting hearing people that start because I started my first job in the fire service was oh, four.

358
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,200
And for most of us testing around that time, it was incredibly competitive.

359
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:41,280
You know, my next one in California, I was against over a thousand certified recruits in the actual written test.

360
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040
So that means that they were probably a lot more that were filtered out prior to that.

361
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,720
Fast forward 20 years and now we're in this immense recruitment crisis.

362
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:55,160
Before I kind of load the question, what is your perspective on how we've got here?

363
00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:00,560
Listen, I mean, we could we could talk about that. It was from Sunday in regards to how we got here. Right.

364
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,000
And, you know, everybody can have their own opinion about it. Right.

365
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,960
A noble profession by by trade, for sure.

366
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,760
I think that, you know, we went, like I said, in the recruiting crisis that we're in, you know,

367
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,080
from convention centers to conference rooms is hiring now. Right.

368
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:19,600
Like we started out huge. And now we're at the point where you're lucky if you get five resumes in for a hiring cycle.

369
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,760
And, you know, is it I think politics has a huge play in it.

370
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:30,120
I think that the media has a big play in the why of why people don't want to become cops.

371
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:36,800
And, you know, the the bastard, the pasturization of police work over the last almost 10 years now.

372
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:44,640
Right. Has really gotten hard for folks because who wants you obviously meet people at your worst day.

373
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,240
And then you're coming in and you're expecting to have the support of your of your team and your leadership.

374
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:52,520
And, you know, I have I have a great team on my end.

375
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,760
But like I said, all their agencies aren't so great. Right.

376
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,480
And they get the experience of, hey, this is what you're going to do.

377
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,960
You're getting written up and you're getting jammed up for a bad guy's behavior.

378
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
And you said you're only trying to keep the peace.

379
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,200
But again, like the military conversation where people will sort each other. Right.

380
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,000
Like there are good cops and there are bad cops or bad firemen or bad good firemen.

381
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,560
There are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers. Right.

382
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:19,520
Like what the problem is, is the bad outweigh the good on the TV because then they exploit it and it becomes, you know, mainstream.

383
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,280
And that's what makes it very, very challenging.

384
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,320
And I think that if there was less of that,

385
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,840
like somebody said the other day, if the news wasn't 24 hours a day, it wouldn't be worth it.

386
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,360
It'd be worth watching. But now that it's on 24 hours a day, it's not even worth it.

387
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,520
Right. Because it's the same story over and over again.

388
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,640
If you believe it, you hear it so many times, you're going to start to believe it.

389
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:45,800
But what's sad as well, and I've had people from journalism, especially one Larry Doyle, who was revered in that world.

390
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:51,800
He was the first person to interview Nelson Mandela after he was released and Saddam Hussein.

391
00:36:51,800 --> 00:37:00,800
And I was asking him and he said, yeah, the moment that they switch from companies having the news just as news to requiring the news to make money.

392
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,920
That's when this downward spiral here. So you've got this 24 hour news cycle.

393
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,120
It's not to keep everyone educated. It's to keep you stuck to the TV.

394
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,400
So you'll watch their shitty laundry detergent commercial that they paid a million dollars for.

395
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,360
That's why they're trying to keep you on.

396
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,440
So, you know, the more click bait stories and the more, you know, defund or whatever the thing is.

397
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:28,040
And like I said, yes, there are mistakes in uniform of all our professions and they should be held into the spotlight.

398
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:41,240
But the problem is they're presented as this is the entire law enforcement community rather than this is an isolated incident or this is what happens when you have poor leadership in a department like Valdi.

399
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:50,320
And I totally agree with you. And like I said, when we look at going back and I think, you know, a lot of, you know, whether it was happening prior and it's just not seen, right.

400
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:56,560
But we know, you know, the incident in Ferguson, right. And how bad that that created chaos in the world. Right.

401
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,520
But I often look at it to like the community bank was just empty at that point.

402
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,880
The folks there were just tired of, you know, whatever was going on there.

403
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,600
And like I said, there was more withdrawals than deposits going into the bank. Right.

404
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:13,760
And at that point, it was it was a shame because I said, you know, when the incident happened, you know, it was it was sad.

405
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,800
Right. And like I said, nobody wants to see anybody get hurt.

406
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:26,880
You know, we don't go to work wanting to hurt people. But, you know, when you're entrusted and put in a position to do your job and you said some, you know, you never know what you're going to come across.

407
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,200
Right. And it makes it very, very hard.

408
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:39,360
But I think, you know, a lot of the chaos that ensued there, you know, and I said, I'm not I'm not, you know, into all the science and understanding of the whys and the hows and the what's what was going on there.

409
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,320
But I feel like the community bank at that point was empty.

410
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,400
A law enforcement as a whole. And it just it took traction. And like I said, everything else started off from there.

411
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,400
You know, there could have been more positive deposits put into the bank. And there wasn't that way.

412
00:38:51,400 --> 00:39:00,280
You know what I mean? Absolutely. Yeah. Someone said to me recently, water boils at two hundred and twelve degrees and a lot of people are walking around at two hundred and ten.

413
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,880
That's the perfect analogy. All it took was that straw to break the camel's back.

414
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:13,160
Yep. And I agree with that. I mean, it makes perfect sense. Right. Because, like I said, is, you know, you can only withdraw so much right before you have a problem.

415
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,320
And they said if a bank goes bankrupt, what happens or what happens when your bank account goes empty? Right. You don't have it no more.

416
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,280
Right. So what do you start doing? You start freaking out. Well, if the community is out of money in a sense, right.

417
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,560
And community relations and how you treat the people and everything like that.

418
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,080
Well, if enough's enough, they're going to throw their hands and it's going to be a problem.

419
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:39,440
So when you entered the law enforcement agency here in the U.S., you know, what was your experience at the front door?

420
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,680
What were the fitness standards? Was there any mental health conversation?

421
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,800
What was the kind of environment that you walked into?

422
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,480
There was a basic mental health examination to get in, but there was no real mental health.

423
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,240
I mean, as far as like mental health on the the cop side, you know, we can, you know, you can talk about that.

424
00:39:54,240 --> 00:40:00,800
There was, you know, resilience was not a thing. There was no conversations about, you know, you either you sucked up and you're pressed on.

425
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:06,000
You keep moving forward. You shut up at college. You did whatever you had to do to get through it.

426
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:12,280
The police academy alone, you know, it was, you know, like I said, a good mix of education and experience,

427
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:22,040
but a lot of discipline and, you know, a lot of grit and, you know, just rolling around in the grass and the dirt and, you know, push up, set up to run the hazing, whatever they wanted to do.

428
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:27,880
The instructors were young instructors at the time, and they were they weren't that far out from out of the police academy from where I was at.

429
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,200
Right. Just a couple of years out and they were now instructors.

430
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,400
And they said you took your beatings as they took it and you said you get through it.

431
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,880
And that was six months of just straight chaos in the police academy.

432
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,680
And you're trying to learn all your laws and everything else you got to get to and understand the grasp of things.

433
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:51,080
Right. And then you come out and you're dropped in the FTO, which is a complete different animal from the police academy,

434
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,360
because now there's not the yelling and screaming, but now you have to perform. Right.

435
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,880
And you have to show up to work every day and be the best you can.

436
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:08,000
And you're making mistakes. And at the time, you know, there was no not that it's that long ago, but seven, 18 years, almost 18 years ago, we were still handwriting reports out.

437
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,600
And you would write a report out by hand and you take the FTO and look at it and crinkle it up, throw it in a trash can.

438
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,440
You have to rewrite it again. So, you know, that was the learning style.

439
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,000
You could never do that today. You trunk it up a young kid's paper today, man.

440
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,760
It'd be a heart attack, you know, but the times were just different. Right.

441
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:32,920
So we, you know, we navigated that. And I said, getting into the spaces, you know, you were called to call to call to call and 12 hours a day.

442
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:40,040
You know, you know, my agency, while we're small, we're averaging anywhere from twenty five thousand to twenty seven thousand calls a year.

443
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:45,760
That's a lot, you know, over the course of a three point square mile, three point some square mile town.

444
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,400
So you're humping it and you're working hard, you know.

445
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:55,520
Again, you come out of high school and you enter, you know, pre-hospital medicine, you know, and you get this one lens.

446
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,840
Now you've been in the military in the law enforcement side and you enter your department here.

447
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:09,120
What was some of the kind of jarring moments or aha moments about the difference between what you've been doing in the military and what you were doing here in the U.S.?

448
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:16,280
Well, military law enforcement is different because, you know, obviously, military have, you know, there's at least a standard set in the military where you have a baseline.

449
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,920
Right. The civilian side is you never know what you're walking into.

450
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,840
You're people only ever call you. They don't call you to say hello.

451
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,560
They only ever call you when they need you. Right.

452
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,200
So you're showing up at their worst moment of their time in their life.

453
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:35,400
And, you know, the military coming out of that space, you know, as a as a young cop in the Air Force, it was very strict.

454
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,560
You're challenging people on the flight line. You're pointing guns at them, put them on the ground, challenge them, you know, get them off the flight line,

455
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,240
searching them, interrogating, figuring out what's going on and why they're there and what not.

456
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,160
And then you go to the police world. You can't follow those same rules.

457
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,760
And, you know, while early in my career, it was a lot of that kind of stuff was similar in a sense.

458
00:42:53,760 --> 00:43:01,320
But, you know, I tell you that I learned only really how to talk to people when I became a detective.

459
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:09,480
And, you know, when I transitioned into the detective world about six years into my career, you know, it wasn't until then I realized how much communication,

460
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,200
just being able to empathize with people really made a difference, you know.

461
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:20,520
So I feel like that was something that, you know, was kind of lacking at the point, which, you know, is very well, you know, very, you know, sought now.

462
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:28,040
And, you know, guys are very much told how to communicate and, you know, well, average 30 to 50 minutes on a call with people now versus just, you know, hammer them out,

463
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,320
hammer them out and just go to the next. Right. Because that's all we had.

464
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:42,000
But, you know, you're forever shifting gears. You know, you start out with grandma that fell down her steps to somebody dead on a, you know, on an overdose or you shift the gear to a really bad car crash or you're dealing with CPR on a child.

465
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,320
Like, you never know what you're going to walk into.

466
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:50,640
And you said those 40 to 60 calls are answering in a shift is a lot, you know.

467
00:43:50,640 --> 00:44:00,680
One of the big things about the recruitment crisis and the fireside is, you know, they work, I think Northeast, they have quite a few departments that work 42 hour work weeks, but most of the countries work in 56.

468
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:10,080
So 24, 48. And, you know, when I came on, you weren't questioning work weeks, you were just, you know, all kind of starry eyed and wanting to be a firefighter.

469
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:21,920
And it's an admirable pursuit. But as you mentioned, the core lows, a lot of our agencies have not to mention the mandatory overtime because we have this recruitment crisis now is creating these insane work weeks.

470
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:30,960
And, you know, in the fireside, I think what's happening is a lot of these young people do value their physical health, their mental health, their time with family.

471
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:39,120
And they're looking at the black and white, you know, what it looks like to be a firefighter and the divorces and the cancers and all the things and going that doesn't look very attractive.

472
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,280
And I totally understand. I think it's a very intelligent way of looking at it.

473
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:54,080
What is it with the law enforcement side that you think has caused this shift from testing against hundreds, if not thousands of people to five applications?

474
00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:01,440
Well, I think I said again, like it's, you know, the world politics, I think drives a big thing is, you know, you're set for an example for others, right?

475
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,240
If you do one thing wrong, you're going to be the next figurehead on TV, right?

476
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:17,040
Being blessed for doing something wrong. But also, too, is like, you know, we've seen it with some of our younger guys that we've hired where they'll go through the police academy, embrace all the suck that they could ever have for that six months.

477
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:22,880
They'll get in the field training and they start dealing with the public and they immediately are pumping the brakes and saying, well, I didn't sign up for this.

478
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:33,040
And that's what what did you expect to do? And, you know, whether we're failing to articulate it properly in the police academy was still old style mindset of training.

479
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,440
And not articulating enough, you know, where we are to what we're dealing with on the street.

480
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:46,680
Right. Or is it, you know, you know, when I get on a shift work as the Academy is Monday through Friday, you know, eight to four or eight to five or seven to five, whatever it comes out to be.

481
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:53,040
Right. And then you come to shift work and now you're working days and nights, days and nights, you know, 12 hour shifts.

482
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:59,000
You know, you're locked into a shift, you know, some agencies switch weekly, some agencies switch three months, you know, but they hit these 12 hour shifts.

483
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:05,720
And that's a lot of time away from home and you're missing holidays and then you start experiencing, you know, especially as a young as a young younger kid.

484
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,320
Right. Like some kids are just starting families.

485
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:15,600
What's the pressure at home they're getting, you know, and they're coming home telling them about, oh, my God, I stood at a dead body for four hours because I was waiting for the detectives to finish up.

486
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,440
And then I had to go deal, you know, and then my boss was pissed because I didn't get my reports done.

487
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:30,560
You know, so they take a beating because of the expectations. But, you know, are we not setting them up for success in the academy early on, you know, to get them to roll into where they are today?

488
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:38,440
Do you think the fact that they have been raised in an electronic age is also setting them up for failure when it comes to simply interacting?

489
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:46,960
Because I see even young people that are holding down jobs and being successful, but even you can just see the ability to maintain eye contact,

490
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,640
the ability to have a conversation just doesn't seem the same as it was when I was a teen.

491
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:59,080
Right. If I'm sitting here having a conversation, we're talking and I'm looking at my phone the whole time and I'm not paying any attention to you.

492
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,040
I mean, how effective is that going to be? Right.

493
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:10,560
But, you know, with the addictiveness of these phones and the time that we spend on them and the amount of space that we live in, I mean, it's there, right.

494
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,520
It's it's there's a dopamine effect to these things, you know, where you get sucked into them and you can't put them down.

495
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:23,920
Right. And, you know, whether you're you're sitting on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, the blue skies, the new the new what is it?

496
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:30,680
New Twitter that's coming out now, you know, all these new fancy, you know, social media platforms that are popping up.

497
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,960
But what's you know, they draw you in for it, just like you said earlier, right.

498
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,640
The click bait and everything else you want to do.

499
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:41,760
And, you know, my wife has recently found on Instagram that they have these really, really bad acting short stories on Instagram.

500
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,280
And she loves to loves to watch them and they draw you in, but they hit you with a small thing.

501
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:53,960
You watch them and it goes from there. You know, so it's it's very hard because majority of their time is spent looking at this.

502
00:47:53,960 --> 00:48:01,360
They don't know how to communicate with anybody because even going to see my little guy in first, you know, in school when I was there, you know, they're pecking away at the computer.

503
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,160
The teacher says, all right, well, click this button and go to this exercise and do this.

504
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:12,200
And she just sits and watches them like, are we really educating our kids or we're letting somebody else do it via a means of a computer?

505
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,280
Yeah. Well, I think especially in our field, you know, whether it's doing an assessment, you know,

506
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:23,760
as a paramedic or whether it's trying to deescalate situations, a police officer, you're not just having to communicate.

507
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,040
You're having to communicate in a potentially life or death situation.

508
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:35,360
So by, you know, by restricting their ability to communicate. And again, this is not blaming any one particular entity,

509
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:41,760
but this environment that these kids have been grown up in, especially adding in the fricking pandemic for these poor kids as well.

510
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,480
You know, it's a very, very dangerous thing to then put them in and say, oh, yeah, now you've got to learn how to talk.

511
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,960
And by the way, that person might shoot you if you get it wrong.

512
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:57,600
So, you know, it really is an important conversation if we're going to set the next kind of generation of recruits up for success.

513
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,960
And I agree with you. I think that, you know, we we have to do a better job.

514
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:07,160
Right. And it's on us, you know, as the current, you know, workers in the spaces to, you know,

515
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,880
continually evolve and educate ourselves to find the better. Right.

516
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,440
Scott's Scott's on and just put an article out.

517
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:18,880
I don't know if you saw my post about it on LinkedIn, but he posted something the other day about the readiness,

518
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,800
you know, the statures of readiness over the course of time.

519
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:26,520
And I pulled up real quick, I can tell you the but I thought it was very well written.

520
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:33,880
And I was telling I sent a message saying, hey, there was a great, great, great article there because I felt like it hit a lot of important parts

521
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,920
because it was talking more about the military side of things.

522
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:45,160
But his whole article was the evolution of human human performance training, navigating the geopolitical paradigm shifts.

523
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:52,360
And then when you go into it, it just basically goes through the years of 2001 to 2008 was lethality, 2008, 2016 was recovery.

524
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:58,600
Right. 2016 to 2020 was readiness and the preparedness and just trying to be ready for what's to come.

525
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,320
And 2020, 2024 was resiliency. Right. Why is it resiliency?

526
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,360
We all know that, right, because we're in the isolation era of the covid.

527
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:11,720
And then we're expected, you know, one, our kids were expected to embrace that, not knowing any idea what's going on.

528
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,560
But then, two, we're experiencing it, nothing that we've ever experienced before.

529
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,880
So the isolation era really put a damper on things.

530
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:27,000
And now, 2024 to forward is that cognitive overmatch, which he talks about integrating advanced technologies, decision making under pressure,

531
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,320
multi domain operational skills like those are the things that we need to start looking at.

532
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,320
And I think he really nailed the head on the article with the fact that we have to continue to evolve.

533
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,400
But we need to be more in tune with what's going on.

534
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,400
Ultimately, you mean with training our folks.

535
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,160
Yeah, absolutely. It's funny.

536
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,120
I've had this conversation with a couple of people recently.

537
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:53,120
It really struck me not too long ago that when we're talking about physical and mental health,

538
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,080
realistically, we're talking about stopping our police officers and firefighters from dying.

539
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,360
We're not talking about human performance.

540
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:07,960
There's not really anything that we do that's in the weight room trying to forge an uber athlete in the fire service.

541
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:15,840
I'm not talking about some sporting level, but making them physically better, making their breath work better, making their mindset better.

542
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,880
We're just saying, hey, let's try and stop them from killing themselves.

543
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,800
Let's try and get them less obese.

544
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,960
And I feel like this conversation has devolved to the point.

545
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,160
And I know this is because I've seen it with my own eyes.

546
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:33,160
You know, a strength and conditioning expert will come to a fire department and they'll teach him how to make oatmeal and walk around the station twice.

547
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,240
We couldn't be further from the demands of a firefighter in a worst case scenario.

548
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:43,680
So I think that's a huge red flag is that if our human performance conversation, air quotes,

549
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:50,680
is simply about mitigating the insane illnesses and deaths, then we have to kind of recalibrate where we should be,

550
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:57,920
get our people back to baseline and then go beyond because, you know, we are supposed to be there on people's worst day.

551
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:07,200
So you need a fit, you know, injury free or limited injury, calm thinking, well rested first responder to be there on your family's

552
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,600
worst day.

553
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:13,240
100 percent. I always say, too, is like you can't build a structure without a solid foundation.

554
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:20,400
Right. So if your foundation is not solid and if you don't have, you know, if you have an inch thick of concrete versus two feet of concrete,

555
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,040
what's your difference? Right. A lot. Right. Structure.

556
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:28,960
So if you can't build the foundation early and even if you had to revert it back to reeducation and, you know,

557
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:35,560
re-experience, like you're never going to take away all the experiences, but you can build a stronger foundation by,

558
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:42,200
you know, fixing what's there and then each pillar of wellness or however you want to performance or however you want to look at it,

559
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:50,160
you know, can then be sought upon. But, you know, you try to put that stuff into the academies early on when it comes to the resilience front.

560
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:57,320
Right. Like in New Jersey here, we have the mandatory resilience training that came out in 2019 and, you know,

561
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:03,040
everybody is mandated to take it. But, you know, it happened. It couldn't happen at a better time, you know, prior to the COVID era.

562
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:08,080
Right. Because, you know, we, you know, when everybody was isolated, you had the resources and tools that, you know,

563
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:15,320
were somewhat available to take you from baseline and put you at a higher accession line so that way you can ride here so that when you do fall.

564
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:21,320
And we still are in crisis. Right. Like there's no question that, you know, there's not, you know, but we need to do a better job.

565
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,600
And I, you know, I'm a huge advocate for it, as you can see from my postings and, you know, because I experienced struggle myself.

566
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:36,280
Right. And, you know, as you go through and navigate these things is you have to ultimately seek hard to find the stuff to make you better.

567
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:45,560
You know, absolutely. When you reflect back on your career, what are some of the what we would call career calls that you've had?

568
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:55,120
And so we've had, you know, it's not nice to say, but, you know, you call it frog when people are crossing the highway and,

569
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,280
you know, it's reminds you of the old game Frogger where they're trying to jump lily pad to lily pad and they get hit by a car and,

570
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:06,360
you know, they get they get annihilated. And that's something in our small town that we deal with regularly, unfortunately, is that,

571
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:12,320
you know, people are crossing the highway, they don't pay attention or it's dark or they're not dressed appropriately and they get annihilated

572
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:18,800
by a car and they're killed and you come up to a scene and, you know, they're all all the way down the highway and now you have to come and,

573
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:26,200
you know, seeing that as a young as a young police officer, you know, is hard at one. But then the harder part is going to have to tell the families.

574
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:32,520
Right. And before we started our chaplain service, you know, we didn't we it was two officers and we had to go wrap on the first

575
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,360
find out where they lived and then go knock on the door and let them know that their loved one had passed.

576
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:42,720
And, you know, that really leaves a profound impact on you because it's hard.

577
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:51,160
Right. And, you know, to experience tragedy, you know, on the on the opposite end of the receiving end.

578
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:57,480
Right. It's almost as hard as probably receiving it. Right. Because what do you do for a family that one, you don't even know.

579
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:04,360
But then, too, you're trying to articulate how the wise and everything else, because there's a thousand questions.

580
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:11,760
But then also to watch them literally fall to their knees and, you know, praying to God or whoever they believe in that the fact that their loved ones no longer here.

581
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,600
You know, so that that has made a huge impact, you know, being able to do that.

582
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,000
And, you know, and it's definitely over the time you become numb to it.

583
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:24,480
But then, you know, dealing with especially now as a detective, you know, you see all the all the bad.

584
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:31,320
Right. So, you know, you're showing up to the dead bodies are showing up to the real bad assaults and seeing the different things that way.

585
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,920
And I can remember at one point in my careers and I know it left a profound impact on a friend of mine.

586
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:43,160
But, you know, it's still I can talk about it to this day, because we talk about it regularly because the little girl is a vegetable.

587
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:49,280
But it was a child abuse case. And the guy wound up smashing his girl's head into the wall and shifted her brain.

588
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,240
And it's like, you know, now she's a vegetable. But, you know, we saw her, too.

589
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:57,800
This is probably 10 years ago. Now she's 12. But she's still.

590
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:06,640
A vegetable, you mean, like it's sad, you know, but then the guy, you know, doesn't I mean, he was wrong or he didn't get what he was supposed to get.

591
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,280
You mean like the court's failure, however you want to look at it.

592
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:15,960
But those things leave lasting impressions in your mind and never really disappear. Right.

593
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:22,240
Same with the homicides. You get out there and you deal with homicides and we're we don't we're not a bad town.

594
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:27,000
But we've had our share of homicides, whether it's one or two a year to up to four here.

595
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:33,760
Right. And same thing as you go there and you're doing the work to try to figure out the who, the what, the when, the where, the why, the how.

596
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:40,560
And, you know, trying to dig through all this mess and, you know, having to relive the experience for these people,

597
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,160
for them to get to where you need to be ultimately. Right.

598
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:46,760
And some motives you can understand some motor you just never will understand.

599
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,600
You know, how much of the death and destruction that you've had to witness,

600
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:59,040
do you think is down to the national mental health crisis that a lot of people seem to be intent on ignoring?

601
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:06,400
Man, I mean, we are in a mental health crisis, no doubt, no doubt about it. And I said, I feel like, you know,

602
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:12,720
it's it's very, very hard because drugs are an all time high, you know,

603
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,560
and it's in the drugs have been an all time high for several years. Right.

604
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:21,880
So the families that were users then now their kids are coming back. Right.

605
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:27,440
And that does have a ripple effect to it. Right. So like there is a major problem with it.

606
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,440
I feel like we're slowly doing a better job at managing the mental health,

607
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,880
but we still have the mental health support in the courts and everything else that you need to be in.

608
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:40,480
Right. To really get that effect out to the public. Right.

609
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,400
Because I said, they're one is still cost money. You still need to have insurance.

610
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,840
You still need to be able to because, you know, insurance is only going to cover you what they want.

611
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,200
They'll take all your money, but they ain't never going to give it to you.

612
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:56,360
So those that are struggling, you know, you know, they're not they're always going to struggle

613
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:02,080
because they just throw medicine at it. And what you say when you don't treat it appropriately,

614
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,280
it's all manageable for the most part. You know, obviously there's things they can't.

615
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,480
But, you know, when you just throw medicine at things, it's a suppressant.

616
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,680
It's not something that's going to fix the end all be all.

617
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,280
And kind of like drugs. Right. We have a drug court in New Jersey and, you know,

618
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,320
people use drugs and they go into the drug court and they get kicked loose.

619
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,000
They get clean drug tests and, you know, follow the rules for X amount of time.

620
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:26,440
Then it relapsed and then it happens again. It's just the cyclical nature of it.

621
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,080
And it's unfortunate. You know, drugs today are just chemicals.

622
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,080
They're not even natural drugs.

623
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,560
They were back in the day coming out of the poppy fields or, you know, out of the cocoa plant.

624
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:39,720
Right. Like they're all, you know, xylosine and all these other chemicals of they're just chemicals

625
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,800
pumping into your body. And, you know, they just they just do so much damaging effects.

626
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,760
And it doesn't create a healthy mind. But then their minds are bad.

627
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,000
But then the families are put through so much that their minds start to get touted. Right.

628
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:56,760
And then it's the ripple effect outward. You know, so I feel like it's a problem.

629
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,160
You know what I mean? But there are things that they're trying to do.

630
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,280
And I know that there are some good people trying to do it.

631
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:06,240
You just need to get a lot of the more powerful people behind it to say, hey, you know,

632
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:11,120
this is what we got to do. You know, I think this is what's really unfair with the law

633
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:16,160
enforcement conversation is they're constantly looking at you to mitigate the things.

634
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,000
And if you're too rough, then, you know, you're demonized.

635
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,120
And, you know, why do you look like you go into war with all the body armor?

636
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,600
But no one's ever saying why are the streets of America so dangerous?

637
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:31,440
What have we done in this country that's created so much homelessness that our children,

638
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,560
just like my son did the other day, have these code reds where they assume that someone's

639
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,760
going to walk into their classroom and execute them all, that we have gangs.

640
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,840
You look at other parts of the country, some some are just as bad other parts of the world.

641
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,200
But there's a lot of countries that are a lot, lot safer than we are.

642
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,680
And I think this is the element is if we're not addressing this multigenerational trauma

643
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:56,040
that's creating this violence and this mental ill health and we're just putting it on law

644
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,160
enforcement shoulder, nothing's going to change.

645
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,600
It's just going to get worse and worse.

646
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,800
And exactly the truth, like like New Jersey is a sanctuary state, whether you want to

647
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,160
believe in it or not, I mean, I, you know, I leave my opinion where it's to be left.

648
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:13,320
But, you know, you know, there are, you know, there are things that are in play for that.

649
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,920
And like I said, you know, to kick every illegal in this country out is not the way to go.

650
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:17,920
About things right.

651
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:18,920
Like you can't just do that.

652
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:19,920
It's one.

653
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,640
It's a cost that's never anybody's ever going to achieve.

654
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:23,640
Right.

655
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,960
But there are a lot of bad people that are locked up or there are pending extraditions

656
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,800
out of the country that they need to focus on to get them out of here.

657
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:30,800
Right.

658
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,160
But then you start looking at, like I said, the active shooter things.

659
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:34,160
Right.

660
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:35,160
When's the last time the schools burnt down?

661
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,920
You know, and this is what something I talk about.

662
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:37,920
Right.

663
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,120
And your fire service career, when, when, when can you tell the last person or last

664
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:42,120
time the schools burned down?

665
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:43,120
Right.

666
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:44,120
Yeah.

667
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,120
Well, apparently it was the fifties when they had a multi multi-facility.

668
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:47,120
Yeah.

669
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:48,120
Right.

670
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:49,120
The fifties.

671
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,200
But that's the last time we can ever articulate a fire, but we still practice fire drills.

672
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:53,200
Right.

673
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,280
But then when it comes to active shooters, right, we can't put our kids through it because

674
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:58,560
it's too hard on their minds.

675
01:00:58,560 --> 01:00:59,560
Right.

676
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,180
And I, and I understand it to a point, like you can sensitize it and make it what it is,

677
01:01:03,180 --> 01:01:07,120
but just practicing the safety has it, but the C something says whatever you want to

678
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:10,960
look at, however, you know, whatever program you want to talk about, you know, that's out

679
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,240
there, but like I said, you know, it is scary.

680
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,560
And they said, our young kids are having to face these and you know, you have to have

681
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,280
the conversations early so that they're prepared.

682
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:21,280
Right.

683
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,440
And then, you know, you talk about, you know, looking at what's happening with these gangs

684
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,920
and stuff that are taking over these apartment complexes and different things like that.

685
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:32,160
I mean, yeah, there's a lot of bad things happening, but you know, we're in a recruiting

686
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,800
crisis so people aren't jumping across the table to become a cop.

687
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:36,800
Right.

688
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:38,880
So it's almost like, what do we do at this point now?

689
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:43,120
And you know, the old timers are starting to wear down and you know, as they get older

690
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,520
in their career, are they going to be wanting to fight the same fights that the young kids

691
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:47,520
are going to want to fight?

692
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,080
And it's not that way, you know.

693
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,520
If you were king for a day, what would be the elements that you would change so that

694
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:58,260
you could get back to get back to 20 years ago, but obviously, you know, with the technology

695
01:01:58,260 --> 01:02:02,600
and advances of 2024, how do we get back to the point where people are lining up to be

696
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,080
police officers again?

697
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:05,080
Right.

698
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:09,240
I think, well, I think, I think that if we kind of like what I was saying with that article

699
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:14,000
that I was talking about is if we can take a new approach to building a better foundation

700
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:19,760
of human performance, ultimately, in a sense, right, and giving all the tools and resources

701
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,640
that you need and making it something that, you know, it's not all bad.

702
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,440
Like I said, you're going to experience that, right.

703
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:26,840
There's never going to get away from it.

704
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:31,480
But if you had to revert it back to what it's something that's worth its space to bring

705
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:35,400
more people on board is one, you got to make it something that they're going to want to

706
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:36,400
come back to.

707
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:37,400
Right.

708
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,600
And if you throw them in, then it's not throwing them in now.

709
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:40,600
Right.

710
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,480
Are there not enough police, police videos on YouTube and, you know, there are positive

711
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,960
versus just shootings and, you know, because that's a lot of that stuff that is right.

712
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,280
How many taser deployments or your shootings are out there on the Internet that everybody

713
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:52,760
wants to watch over and over again?

714
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,580
Well, you know, you could find them all day.

715
01:02:54,580 --> 01:02:58,120
But some kids like I'm not going to do that because I'm not going to get involved in that,

716
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,120
you know.

717
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:04,520
So is it, you know, is it trying to find a space that, you know, you bring more into

718
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,120
the trade space like you talked about with the technical schools, you know, and the kids

719
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:12,040
are growing and they evolve into a space that's built that way.

720
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:16,040
You know, I mean, whether it's any responders base, you know, I'd say it's first, second,

721
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:17,040
third responders.

722
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:18,040
Doesn't really matter.

723
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:19,040
You're all responders, right?

724
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,200
Whether you're nurses, doctors, fire, EMS, police, you're all responding somewhere to

725
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,080
do something that normal people aren't going to do.

726
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:26,080
Right.

727
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,400
So we find whatever responders base we got and, you know, however you're going to train

728
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,400
them.

729
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,400
But you can start early, you know, in a sense where I started my career, you know, and find

730
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,760
those that are going to enjoy it and teach them the right way, you know, to build that

731
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:38,760
foundation.

732
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,680
I think that's what you bring back, you know, especially on the human performance front

733
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,040
is, you know, there's a lot of pieces that go into it, you know, mind, body, spirit,

734
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,040
you know, all that kind of stuff is there.

735
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,080
A lot of it, which is we don't get that anymore.

736
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,360
I had Sebastian Junger on the show several times.

737
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:57,320
And one of the conversations he talked about wanting to bring in national service and he

738
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:01,680
said, it doesn't have to be military, but a year where you are serving your country

739
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:02,680
in some capacity.

740
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:07,280
And again, you could be working in the veterinary surgery, you could be volunteering as a firefighter

741
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,040
or whatever the thing is.

742
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:11,240
But now, you know, it's kind of like the Israeli model.

743
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:16,600
I know they're not exactly glowing with their leadership choices at the moment, but with

744
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,560
their military, their whole ethos is that they have a buddy system and they are watching

745
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,160
their buddies ass and their buddy is watching their ass.

746
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:29,600
So when you are in an organization where you understand, you know, the importance of being

747
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,740
in a community, the importance of service and what you're at, the impact that your actions

748
01:04:33,740 --> 01:04:40,240
have on your nation, I think, you know, generationally, we would probably go back to the quote unquote

749
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:41,600
good old days.

750
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:45,120
But at the moment, you know, with people who are really putting their lives on the line

751
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:51,000
being demonized while people just sit there on their cell phone, you know, keyboard warrioring,

752
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:52,000
there's no skin in the game.

753
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,600
And I really like that idea of everyone having to serve for a year.

754
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,200
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, right?

755
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,960
Because one, you're going to find out some may just never have even had the thought of

756
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,200
even trying to do it right.

757
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,640
So they now you're put into a position where they have to do it right.

758
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,200
And you experience and you may find it would be something you enjoyed, right?

759
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:10,880
Like I never thought I was going to be a cop one day.

760
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:12,480
I never thought I was going to be in the military one day.

761
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,720
But you know, I stepped outside the box to where it is.

762
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:16,720
And here I am.

763
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,160
You know, I said it's something, you know, it's still a noble profession.

764
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,320
It's just we're struggling.

765
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,680
And like I said, it's very, very hard, you know, especially on our guys on our shifts,

766
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:27,000
you know, you know, in the fire service as well.

767
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,000
Like people aren't knocking the doors down.

768
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,520
So your guys are constantly at minimums are working overtime.

769
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,560
They're never getting a break from the day to day.

770
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,120
And you said there you spend more time at work ultimately now than you do with your

771
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:39,480
families.

772
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,480
What really nauseates me is when the papers will do an article and it will say, oh, this

773
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,120
firefighter made this much money.

774
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:46,800
This is how much they're getting paid.

775
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,160
They're not telling them they work 56 hours a week.

776
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:53,720
Plus they were forced to be, you know, every two weeks forced to do an 80 hour week.

777
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:55,360
That's never in the conversation.

778
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,280
So it looks like, oh, wow, they made that much money.

779
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:58,280
Yeah.

780
01:05:58,280 --> 01:05:59,280
Well, you would make that much money if you work.

781
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:00,280
And I have to mention, it's usually great.

782
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,800
They usually look at gross pay and they'll advertise the gross pay versus your net pay.

783
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:05,680
And we all know that's a huge difference.

784
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:06,680
Right.

785
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,240
So, you know, what shows on paper is not what I'm bringing home every day.

786
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:10,240
You know what I mean?

787
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:11,240
Absolutely.

788
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:15,400
Well, you touched on, you know, obviously some of the traumatic elements of the job.

789
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,640
What have been your kind of mental health highs and lows throughout your career?

790
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:20,640
Man.

791
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,360
So, you know, I, you know, and we always and I know you've talked about this way many,

792
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,440
many, many times in the past is, you know, we look at, you know, we started with our

793
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:29,440
families, right.

794
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,480
The adverse childhood experiences, the experience growing up.

795
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,560
And, you know, one thing I mentioned about my dad and stand up guy that he was, but he

796
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:36,560
suffered from alcoholism.

797
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,680
And, you know, that was a very, very hard piece to deal with.

798
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:40,680
Right.

799
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,040
My mom was a heavy hand growing up because that's how she was raised.

800
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:50,160
And, you know, having, you know, family members that, you know, treat you in that aspect is

801
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:51,160
hard.

802
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:52,160
Right.

803
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,400
So then you kind of get away from it and you move into the military space where now you're,

804
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,280
you know, yelling, screaming, hooting, hollering discipline is a thing.

805
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:01,920
And then you grow up and then you start experiencing different things, you know, whether it's in

806
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:06,760
a deployed environment or it's something you experience, you know, at home, you know, at

807
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,480
home, but like in the police world, right.

808
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,200
You meet everybody at the worst day.

809
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:11,200
Right.

810
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:15,280
So those things all compound and then the, you know, the trauma just kind of builds and,

811
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,600
you know, whether you want to call it trauma or terrible experiences, they all kind of

812
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,320
have a piece and it's, you know, Nick's it's your armor.

813
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:22,320
Right.

814
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:26,320
And the vicarious trauma that happens over the course of your career, you know, starting

815
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,920
from a very young age, because we come out this perfect little baby.

816
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:29,920
Right.

817
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,200
And then you're thrown out to the world and, you know, going from there.

818
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:36,200
So, you know, I, you know, I suffered a little bit, you know, with my dad being an alcoholic

819
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,600
and then, you know, thank God he's recovered from that.

820
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:39,800
And, you know, God bless his soul.

821
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,640
And I said, that's, you know, something that's huge at this point.

822
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:43,640
Right.

823
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:47,320
But then I said, you know, mom, it's a heavy hand and, you know, some, probably some mental

824
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:48,320
health issues.

825
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:49,320
I couldn't tell you, I'm not a doctor.

826
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:50,320
Right.

827
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:56,720
But, you know, growing up and then they said with the police, the police world, it's, it's

828
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:58,960
tough, except because you meet everybody at their worst.

829
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:00,760
You don't ever know what ever calls you to say hello.

830
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,640
They'll drop cookies off at Christmas time, but that's about the only time, you know,

831
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,840
somebody's calling you because what do people do?

832
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:06,840
They call you when they're at the worst.

833
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:07,840
Right.

834
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,260
So you get there, you deal with whatever you got to deal with and you're expected to go

835
01:08:10,260 --> 01:08:15,000
to the next 30 to 40 to 50 to 60 calls, whatever you got to deal with in a shift, you know,

836
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,840
and they all could be bad the whole day.

837
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,520
You never know.

838
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:19,520
Right.

839
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,840
And then, so for me, one thing we did, we had obviously the state of New Jersey brought

840
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:24,800
out the resilience program.

841
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,320
But early in the military career is you got the, you know, the Air Force has comprehensive

842
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:33,120
airman fitness, you know, the army has the army, the model for resilience, you know,

843
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:34,120
whatnot.

844
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:38,000
And that was a lot of that was implicated, you know, started back in what 2008, 2009

845
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:40,040
timeframe through the University of Penn.

846
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:44,220
So we call up University of Penn to try to get something started from New Jersey.

847
01:08:44,220 --> 01:08:50,840
New Jersey kicked off the resilience program in 2019, which was just a baseline foundational

848
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:52,520
program for wellness.

849
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:56,720
And then some other folks, you know, in that space, they wound up retiring from law enforcement

850
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,600
and created a program for resilience.

851
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,040
And I, you know, wound up going through that and experiencing that and started to be a

852
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,840
facilitator for them just because I found out how important it was.

853
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,840
All during that time is, you know, and you know, where the struggle for me and a little

854
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:14,760
bit of it comes into play is, you know, with all that experience prior with, you know,

855
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:19,920
the family and whatnot is, you know, learning, you know, from some minor health issues, cholesterol

856
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:26,240
issues that I discovered that my dad that raised me was not my dad, you know, biologically.

857
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,480
And you know, when I discovered that it kind of puts you in a spiral, right?

858
01:09:29,480 --> 01:09:32,440
Because you're like, you can one of that all day long, right?

859
01:09:32,440 --> 01:09:35,600
And trying to figure that space and, you know, it kind of put me down a little bit.

860
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,520
And then to the point where I was struggling, I had a lot of a couple of dark days and,

861
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,440
you know, a couple of times where I just didn't know what was what ended was going to be up,

862
01:09:43,440 --> 01:09:44,440
right?

863
01:09:44,440 --> 01:09:47,480
And, you know, you just didn't know how to navigate it.

864
01:09:47,480 --> 01:09:51,720
And you said we were immersed in my career and, you know, said, you know, on the detective

865
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:56,600
side, you experienced a lot of the negative and with the DNA finding, it was kind of like,

866
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:57,880
well, what's this mystery now?

867
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:59,600
You know, I mean, and where did this all come from?

868
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,440
Because, you know, your mom and dad are raising you all day long to tell you to do the right

869
01:10:02,440 --> 01:10:03,640
thing and never do anything wrong.

870
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,140
And then all of a sudden you're told, hey, wait, your mom screwed up.

871
01:10:07,140 --> 01:10:10,920
And it's been a lifelong secret of yours at age 40, you find out, right?

872
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,800
So I wound up stumbling upon, not stumbling upon, but I found initially I had taken a

873
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:20,360
class with Tom Spooner and some of his team from Northern Red.

874
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,320
And he had talked about a program called Warriors Heart.

875
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,720
And it kind of left a lasting impression, which is that was more for substance abuse

876
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,880
and, you know, for military veterans.

877
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:34,000
And, you know, so I found out that I was struggling after several iterations of resilience training.

878
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:38,400
And I wound up going, I called Warrior Heart just saying, hey, listen, I'm struggling.

879
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:39,400
I don't know what to do.

880
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:40,800
Like, I don't know where I'm going to be tomorrow.

881
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,080
I don't know what's going to be happening.

882
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:43,360
Like, the world's chaotic.

883
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:44,680
Like my mind's chaotic.

884
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:46,240
Like I need help.

885
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:47,240
Right.

886
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:48,240
So I found this.

887
01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:51,560
So they referred me to a program called Warrior Path, which is through the Boulder Crest Foundation.

888
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,000
I don't know if you're familiar with them at all.

889
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,400
I have heard nothing but good things about Boulder Crest over and over again.

890
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,240
And James, when I tell you about it, like that program saved my life.

891
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,560
Like when I talk about, you know, and they said I wasn't on the end of the miles, like

892
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:08,120
some other folks have been and like I said, I've been to a dark place and experienced

893
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:09,800
the what ifs.

894
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:10,800
Right.

895
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,840
But when we look at it and I spent the week in Boulder Crest with the Warrior Path family

896
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:21,440
that I got to meet and now cherish to this day, like, you know, man, it changed my life

897
01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:22,440
forever.

898
01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:23,440
Right.

899
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:26,960
And so because I would sit out front and cry, I'd be upset, I'd be angry, you know, and

900
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,920
just didn't, the wave of emotions were there.

901
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,520
But once I was able to go to Boulder Crest and Warrior Path, I tell you what, man, it

902
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,560
changed my life forever.

903
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:39,280
And you know, at that point, it made me realize like we have to do better.

904
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:40,280
Right.

905
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,680
And you said you learn little pieces over the course of your lifetime, but those little

906
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:47,920
pieces over the course of your lifetime, you know, you learn to figure out, you know, these

907
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:49,000
are the things that I need to do.

908
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:50,000
And that's my new mission.

909
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,000
Right.

910
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,720
Is now just to spread the word and you really just give it back to what Boulder Crest gave

911
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:56,000
me in the very little bit that I can do.

912
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,000
Right.

913
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,680
And, you know, my whole sole goal is to give somebody a better foundation than I was given.

914
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:01,360
You know what I mean?

915
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:03,480
What was it about that program?

916
01:12:03,480 --> 01:12:07,040
What were the tools that were given to you that allowed you to start working through

917
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:09,000
some of these struggles?

918
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:10,560
Right.

919
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,800
So mindfulness obviously is huge.

920
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,600
Breathing is huge.

921
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:21,800
Journaling, just meditation, just giving back a little bit of time for yourself, exercise,

922
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:26,720
movement, you know, fresh air, like just the basic things that live and surround us on

923
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:27,720
a daily basis.

924
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:28,720
Right.

925
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:29,720
Are the things that we forget about.

926
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:30,720
Right.

927
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:31,720
It's almost like I became a cop.

928
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:32,720
I'm now the cop.

929
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:33,720
Right.

930
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:34,720
I'm the what.

931
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:35,720
Right.

932
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:36,720
But I forget the who.

933
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:37,720
The who am I.

934
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:38,720
Right.

935
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:39,720
And we forget who that is at that point.

936
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:40,720
Right.

937
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:45,040
Because we don't, you know, we become so much in that in tune with that space that we don't

938
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:46,040
realize what we are.

939
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:50,880
And like I said, having the ability to meditate, like I never, I'm not a guy that's going to

940
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:55,720
sit there and, you know, meditate, but just to sit down and be quiet for 20 minutes is

941
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:56,720
very powerful.

942
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:57,720
Right.

943
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,520
Just like I said, 20 minute nap will say, you know, is is is great.

944
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:01,520
Right.

945
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:06,280
But for that, like 20 minutes of meditation, you know, doing some breathing exercises,

946
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,880
four, seven, eight breathing, box breathing, whatever you want to get into.

947
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:10,880
Right.

948
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:14,800
Taking that time for yourself just to kind of slow things down and know that, you know,

949
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,040
put your body back at rest is is huge.

950
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,120
And that's something that I had since lost at that point.

951
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:27,480
You know, you mentioned ACES, the the adverse childhood experiences score.

952
01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:32,240
It's amazing how we don't talk about from birth or even, you know, in vitro through

953
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:38,120
to when we put the uniform on, we do a box checking ridiculous psych test that most of

954
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,840
the psych, all the psychologists and psychiatrists have had on have said was never meant to be

955
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:47,560
to, you know, a standalone test to show if you have the right kind of profile to be a

956
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:51,040
copper paramedic or a firefighter.

957
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,720
But those, you know, those formative years are so important.

958
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:57,320
And then obviously understanding the generations prior to that, too.

959
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,960
So what did you do as far as processing the early life?

960
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:05,560
And did you discover that there was even, you know, like grandparents generation, that

961
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,640
there were struggles that maybe these dominoes get falling?

962
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:13,280
Yeah, that's that was part of border crest is you had you had a lot of time to kind of

963
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,280
really dig and search.

964
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:15,280
Right.

965
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:19,320
And while it's only a short, you know, seven day program in the present, right.

966
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:20,720
Each day was just jam packed.

967
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,960
And you said your brain really hurt when you were finished.

968
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:27,200
But it hurt for the good in a sense, because you were working at to a point where you were

969
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:32,640
able to have an experience and work through the experience with like minded folks around

970
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:33,640
you and you're safe.

971
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:34,640
Right.

972
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,200
And ultimately, instead of having to be hyper vigilant and constantly looking over like

973
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:43,240
you're in a very serene, safe place that you have nothing to worry about.

974
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:44,240
Right.

975
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:45,240
And you can be vulnerable.

976
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,040
And I think that being vulnerable is a huge tool.

977
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:49,040
Right.

978
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:51,800
Because if you can allow the vulnerability to kick in for yourself, it really makes a

979
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:56,440
difference because the vulnerability will allow one for yourself, but for others to

980
01:14:56,440 --> 01:14:58,800
grasp upon and to see.

981
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:03,800
So with that is they have some exercises that we did during the program.

982
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:08,200
And you would basically in different colors, write the good and the bad of each thing.

983
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,880
And you would talk about it and say, this is the things like, you know, that was an

984
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:12,880
alcoholic.

985
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:14,240
Mom would beat the shit out of you.

986
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:20,160
Dad would had like it was super hard on discipline or, you know, grandpop was this.

987
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:22,960
And, you know, he would list the goods and the bads and you have it.

988
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:26,000
But you would find that your list was more red than blue.

989
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:27,000
Right.

990
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,720
So and the red mean in bed and like you'd be like, oh, my God, like, is this really

991
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:31,720
true?

992
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:33,080
And then you would go back and try to think about it.

993
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,760
And all the stuff that you're talking about was like, man.

994
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,640
So then you would talk about it and do some exercises that come along with it.

995
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:39,640
Part of the program.

996
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:41,080
And, you know, you don't want to give it all away.

997
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:43,560
But, you know, it's things that you do while you're there.

998
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:50,280
And, you know, really makes you dig deep to find those pieces, right.

999
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:51,280
That we're missing.

1000
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,640
And those are the things that you kind of block off in a different part of your brain.

1001
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:58,480
And they loom in there when you start getting angry and frustrated and want to experience

1002
01:15:58,480 --> 01:15:59,480
things.

1003
01:15:59,480 --> 01:16:03,280
But, you know, on the everyday, they're there, but they're kind of just knowing a way, you

1004
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:04,560
know, where you don't really realize it.

1005
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:10,240
You know, talk to me about where you are now, because I think one of the things I've said

1006
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:15,000
this a lot recently on the mental health conversation, especially in first responders, is we've we've

1007
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,120
got our pant leg stuck on stigma.

1008
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,000
Like, we're just still there.

1009
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,240
Smash the stigma is all you hear.

1010
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:21,240
I'm here for you.

1011
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:22,800
You know, call this number.

1012
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:30,000
There's no actual hope instilled in the post-traumatic growth and what what happens when you work

1013
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,960
through these struggles and you hear so many times of people that they've literally become

1014
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:35,440
a beacon of light for others.

1015
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:38,840
People come out the woodwork and like, I've been I've been struggling, too.

1016
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:43,080
And it was their journey that inspired them to then speak out themselves.

1017
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:47,280
So what have you seen within yourself as far as that post-traumatic growth side?

1018
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:48,600
Well, right.

1019
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:53,120
And I could tell you that I feel like, you know, one, you know, using social media as

1020
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:56,600
a positive, right, and share the experiences that you have, right, whether we're having

1021
01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:00,240
a conversation now and talking about it like the DNA things, a high priority thing, right,

1022
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:02,440
because you never expect to find what you're going to find.

1023
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:05,240
And if you're going to do those silly tests, you're going to do it.

1024
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:08,440
And like I said, my journey on that space was to find out what was going on with me

1025
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:13,800
inside of my body, not for the whole because 23andMe gives you the raw DNA data versus

1026
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:14,800
it.

1027
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:17,480
So then you can put it into a program to find out what's wrong.

1028
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:20,680
You're expecting to find out that I was going to find that out.

1029
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:21,680
Right.

1030
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:26,920
So, you know, when it comes to working through this stuff and the post-traumatic growth pieces,

1031
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:33,600
you know, we I feel like sharing a story is powerful, right, is just alone, is allowing,

1032
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:34,600
you know, yourself.

1033
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:35,600
Right.

1034
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:36,600
It's like apologies are meant for you, not for other people.

1035
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:37,600
Right.

1036
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:39,880
So you go to apologize for somebody or to forgive somebody.

1037
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,120
Your forgiveness is for you, not for them, whether they think it is or not.

1038
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:44,120
It doesn't really matter.

1039
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:45,120
Right.

1040
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:46,440
But you still feel better for relieving that.

1041
01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:47,440
Why?

1042
01:17:47,440 --> 01:17:52,080
Because you're not letting it sit in the rucksack that's filled with rocks of all these traumas

1043
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:53,080
and everything else that's built in there.

1044
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:54,080
Right.

1045
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:57,720
So if you can unpack the rocks, allow more space for more bad to fit in there, you know

1046
01:17:57,720 --> 01:17:58,720
what I mean?

1047
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:00,160
You have a better chance of growth.

1048
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:01,160
Right.

1049
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,800
And you're not weighed down by the burden that lives within it, because once you talk

1050
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:09,160
about it, your terrible experience is not really a fault anymore because you've just

1051
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:11,600
relieved that pressure in a sense.

1052
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:12,600
Right.

1053
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,560
So, you know, you're not going to go into a fire without pressure testing your bottle,

1054
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:16,560
right.

1055
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:17,560
Right.

1056
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,440
So, you know, having that, you know, it's going to work and go forward.

1057
01:18:20,440 --> 01:18:24,840
But having a conversation, like I said, and sharing the story with others, you know, and

1058
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:26,880
saying, hey, man, like, I'm here for you.

1059
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:28,600
Like, there's nothing wrong being vulnerable.

1060
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:34,200
There's nothing wrong with showing a side of you that, you know, is, in a sense, sensitive.

1061
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:35,200
Right.

1062
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,960
Because sometimes people need to see that because the hard facade that you can show

1063
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,720
in the front, if you can show them what you're really about, it's kind of the who and the

1064
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:43,720
what.

1065
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:44,720
Right.

1066
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:47,400
And that's not going to allow me to conversate, but the who and me would allow me to talk

1067
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:48,400
about that all day long.

1068
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:49,400
Right.

1069
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:52,680
But if you continue to share that and show people that you have the ability to do it,

1070
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:56,520
then that just it's almost what is it?

1071
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:57,520
It spreads.

1072
01:18:57,520 --> 01:18:58,520
Right.

1073
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,760
It's, you know, it allows people to, you know, want to embrace that a little bit.

1074
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:05,280
And while some are harder to penetrate than others is having those conversations that

1075
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,560
are more positive versus negative, you know, allows for these folks to get a better show.

1076
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:14,520
You know, I've used this analogy loads of times now, but it's the yin and the yang.

1077
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:18,080
You know, I always tell people it was a soft, compassionate black.

1078
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,760
I think it's I don't know why I can never remember which is which, but I think it's

1079
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,240
yang that sends us into uniform.

1080
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:29,200
The weather it's coming from trauma and you don't want other people to be hurt the way

1081
01:19:29,200 --> 01:19:31,480
you were or whatever the thing is.

1082
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:36,200
It's a very selfless act to go and, you know, go leave your family and go and protect complete

1083
01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:37,200
strangers.

1084
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:41,040
And then as we progress through the career, especially if you were raised in our generation

1085
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:45,840
with Stallone's and Rambo's and these kind of stone faced bodybuilders as your example

1086
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:50,960
of masculinity, you know, you now you become a white circle and you've lost the very thing

1087
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:52,840
that actually sent you into uniform.

1088
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:56,560
And so now you believe that, you know, speaking about mental health as being a pussy and its

1089
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:01,740
weakness and we've got it completely backwards is it's courage that takes you to be vulnerable.

1090
01:20:01,740 --> 01:20:05,240
That's a brave thing to say, I need some help.

1091
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:09,560
So I think reframing this and getting people to check back in and realizing that we've

1092
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:11,560
got it completely twisted.

1093
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:15,960
And if you are thinking that everyone's okay and you're just going to keep it to yourself,

1094
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,320
you're going to bury it down.

1095
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:20,960
That's the opposite of what a courageous man or woman will do.

1096
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,160
A courageous man or woman, if they are struggling, will ask for help.

1097
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:29,640
And I think if we can frame that back as the brave thing to do, we are a brave community.

1098
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:34,200
So hopefully then it will get people realizing that, oh, so it's okay for me to ask for help

1099
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:39,480
because that's the very kindness and compassion that I would show anyone else.

1100
01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:42,760
And you know, if I knew they were struggling.

1101
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,680
And I feel like that relates to a lot of different things, right?

1102
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,200
Whether it's our own people, whether it's our families, whether it's the people we encounter

1103
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:50,920
in the street, right?

1104
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:56,240
Is being vulnerable to a point where you empathize and can put yourselves in their shoes under

1105
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:57,880
their same circumstances.

1106
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,800
Take yourself and you empathize with that space and say, Hey man, like I can relate.

1107
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,060
I may not understand all the ins and outs of it, right?

1108
01:21:04,060 --> 01:21:08,240
But if you can empathize with them and put themselves in the same shoes on the same circumstances,

1109
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,800
how much of a better person are you going to be to give it back to them, you know, when

1110
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:12,800
you have to deal with them?

1111
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:13,800
You know what I mean?

1112
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:14,800
Absolutely.

1113
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:17,720
But I want to hit one more topic and then we'll go to some closing questions.

1114
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:23,720
But while we're on the topic of courage, I've been doing this now for eight years and eight

1115
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,440
years ago in the fire service, I was talking not only about the mental health side, but

1116
01:21:28,440 --> 01:21:31,560
also, you know, the insanity of the way that we work our firefighters.

1117
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:35,080
Because I mean, the mandatory overtime has been there for a long, long time.

1118
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:39,440
And again, I'm totally fine with mandatory overtime when we have a hurricane or something

1119
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:45,260
that's worthy of an all hands event, but not as a staffing model unending.

1120
01:21:45,260 --> 01:21:47,240
And we've seen this decline now.

1121
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:52,840
And the beautiful thing about this recruitment crisis is we really have to act because it's

1122
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:54,120
going to go one of two ways.

1123
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:58,440
You're either going to turn the ship around or your town or city is not going to have

1124
01:21:58,440 --> 01:22:00,800
a fire department anymore or a police department.

1125
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:07,120
You know, and do you want to be the fire chief or police chief or council member that sank

1126
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:10,040
the ship for your community?

1127
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:17,600
But where I struggle with is when I was in fire academy, any cowardice would have meant

1128
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:19,360
I would be thrown out of the fire academy.

1129
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,360
If I didn't climb the ladder, if I didn't go into the burning building, if I didn't

1130
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:27,000
go off the edge on a rope, then you can't be a firefighter.

1131
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:33,640
Just forward 20 years and I'm seeing a lot of cowardice when it comes to leadership.

1132
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:39,000
And the reason I say that is, you know, you have people who have lost numerous people

1133
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,540
in their department that, you know, they're training people and then within two or three

1134
01:22:42,540 --> 01:22:45,320
years they're walking out the back door.

1135
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,960
And the answer is the answers are all there.

1136
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:49,160
The solutions are all there.

1137
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:55,200
But it takes courage to go to your city, your county, your board members, whoever it is,

1138
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:57,360
and say this needs to change.

1139
01:22:57,360 --> 01:22:58,600
We are losing our people.

1140
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:01,040
We are losing people as far as recruitment.

1141
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,940
You know, we are at a crisis.

1142
01:23:02,940 --> 01:23:08,040
So for me, I feel like 2025 needs to be the year of courage, not only on the mental health,

1143
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:10,000
but on the leadership side too.

1144
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:11,400
And calling out cowardice.

1145
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:15,960
If someone is refusing to actually step up and advocate for their people, then getting

1146
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,520
them to step aside and letting someone with a set of balls do the job for them.

1147
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:26,480
So what is your kind of perspective on courage slash cowardice in leadership in our professions,

1148
01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:27,480
plural?

1149
01:23:27,480 --> 01:23:28,480
Well, right.

1150
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:31,760
And I see, you know, across, you know, in my time in the military and the police world,

1151
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,640
and you're not so much, you know, from my place, you know, but it happens a little bit,

1152
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:39,400
but you know, I feel like there's a lot of managers, not a lot of leaders, right?

1153
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,440
And you know, whether you're the highly most educated guy there and you're going to be

1154
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:47,800
the leader, but you could be the manager or you could be the most experienced guy and

1155
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:50,520
have the most experience and be a leader, but not a manager.

1156
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,200
So there's no real fine line.

1157
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:56,680
And you know, I know, you know, there's a lot of training and going back to the education

1158
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:57,680
experience, right?

1159
01:23:57,680 --> 01:24:02,120
Experience is good, but like, you can't be afraid to call it out, right?

1160
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:06,080
And you know, you have to be a voice for those that are never going to speak up, right?

1161
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:07,960
And managers won't speak up.

1162
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,760
They're going to, they'll speak up when they can because it's easy, right?

1163
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,800
But they won't speak up when they have to, when it's not easy, right?

1164
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:21,160
So if we step up as the leaders in our space, you know, showing that, hey, we're not afraid

1165
01:24:21,160 --> 01:24:25,040
to take it on by the head and we're not afraid to go in first, you know, without questions

1166
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:26,160
asked, right?

1167
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:29,400
And you're doing it for the right reasons and you're doing it then, then yes, that's

1168
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:30,400
exactly it.

1169
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:32,960
We 2025 needs to be a time of courage, right?

1170
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:38,440
Because we are in a very, very strange place right now in the world, as we all know.

1171
01:24:38,440 --> 01:24:42,360
And you know, there is a lot of cowardice in the world right now and it's not easy to

1172
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:43,360
see.

1173
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:46,800
But we want to make sure that we're stepping with the right foot forward.

1174
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:51,160
And you know, as long as we can articulate it in for the right reasons, for the right

1175
01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:56,100
timing and the right space, then listen, the world needs good leaders, right?

1176
01:24:56,100 --> 01:24:59,320
As well as even on the local level, from the highest to the lowest, you need to have a

1177
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:00,320
leader, right?

1178
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:03,400
You need to be a leader as a father, you need to be a leader as a, as a husband, you need

1179
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:08,240
to be, or a wife, you know, I mean, like, this is all stuff that needs to be transformative.

1180
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:12,040
And like I say, with the growth part of it, like you have to be able to step in and stabilize

1181
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:15,440
when it's needed the most and I think we're at a crucial time.

1182
01:25:15,440 --> 01:25:19,200
And the cowardice cannot be in play at this point because we don't have any more time

1183
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:20,200
for it.

1184
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:21,200
Absolutely.

1185
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:22,200
Yeah, I've seen two types of people.

1186
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:26,040
I've seen the ones that are trying to turn that corner, really trying to steer the ship.

1187
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:31,040
And then I see the ones that will, you know, vehemently defend their apathy.

1188
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:35,080
And I tell them like, look, if, if the way we did it worked, there would be no behind

1189
01:25:35,080 --> 01:25:39,440
the shield podcast, because our first responders would be thriving, they'd be performing at

1190
01:25:39,440 --> 01:25:44,040
a high level, their marriages would be intact, they'd have a long and fruitful retirement,

1191
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:45,560
but that's not the case.

1192
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:51,200
So the way we did it, we've got like a 50 year longitudinal study on how not to do it.

1193
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:56,480
So let's learn from those lessons, you know, in like, invest in our people, don't use them

1194
01:25:56,480 --> 01:26:00,440
as a commodity, but put them as your most valuable resource.

1195
01:26:00,440 --> 01:26:05,840
And then you will have people not only staying, which is your most important recruitment tool,

1196
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:10,040
because happy cops and firefighters will recruit other cops and firefighters.

1197
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:13,600
But also then, you know, you'll attract these young people, you know, at the front door

1198
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:19,120
and you know, have most importantly, in my opinion, someone's given 15, 20, 25 years

1199
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:20,480
of their life.

1200
01:26:20,480 --> 01:26:24,320
Now you ensure that they are healthy when they transition out and get to enjoy the fruits

1201
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:25,320
of their labor.

1202
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:26,320
I agree.

1203
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:27,320
I 100% agree with that.

1204
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:31,760
And I feel like, you know, we have to be people first, right, and have to put people, you

1205
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:35,000
know, in front of us and you know, know that, you know, no matter what, we're going to be

1206
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,040
taking care of them.

1207
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:37,400
And then they have to feel that way too.

1208
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:39,840
Like you said, it's like they have to feel like they're taken care of.

1209
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:42,760
And you know, you don't have to hug and cuddle and give them a trophy every time they need

1210
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:43,760
it.

1211
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:47,080
But you know, they certainly, you know, if there's worth self worth, then there's going

1212
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:49,600
to be a whole lot more coming out of that.

1213
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:50,600
Absolutely.

1214
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:55,240
I've always said I'd much rather a compliment from a chief that I really admired on a fire

1215
01:26:55,240 --> 01:27:00,000
scene than some unit citation, you know, from a chief that doesn't even know my name, you

1216
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:01,000
know what I'm saying?

1217
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:04,560
Hugs and high fives carry a lot more weight than a plaque that's going to sit underneath

1218
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:05,560
my bed.

1219
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:06,560
Absolutely.

1220
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:07,560
All right.

1221
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:11,000
Well, as far as the closing questions, the first one I'd love to ask, is there a book

1222
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:13,400
or are there books that you love to recommend?

1223
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:18,080
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1224
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:22,200
So I feel like I mean, my wife always tell you that I'm a buyer of books, like I'll buy

1225
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:25,760
a hundred books, you know, and I'll dig through it and look at it from there.

1226
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:31,200
But one of the books, you know, it's more like a guide in a sense is Ben Greenfield

1227
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:32,200
wrote a book.

1228
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:36,000
If you follow him, it always a big podcaster, but wrote a book called Boundless and it's

1229
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:37,800
probably this thick.

1230
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:40,040
And it's like the Mecca of health and wellness.

1231
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:42,680
And, you know, it's got all kinds of good data and stuff in there.

1232
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:47,440
So, you know, I always revert that out if I'm looking up whether, you know, what kind

1233
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:51,480
of workout we're looking at or there's breathing exercises or, you know, what kind of therapies

1234
01:27:51,480 --> 01:27:54,800
are available, you know, whatever you need to know health wellness related, it's in that

1235
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:55,800
book.

1236
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:59,300
And, you know, I talk about it often, they said, because they said what put me on my

1237
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:04,240
health journey was this guy on his podcast from I listened to it, which then put me on

1238
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,240
a journey of health and wellness for myself to make myself better.

1239
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:08,240
Right.

1240
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,760
And I wouldn't be, I guess, making strides if it wasn't for the steps of this guy.

1241
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:18,880
So, you know, his book Boundless, I tell you, you know, while while huge, definitely well

1242
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:19,880
worth it.

1243
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:22,640
It's almost probably like similar, I guess, to what, you know, Heberman's book for protocols

1244
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,560
is going to be just kind of laying out the foundation.

1245
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,320
But again, it goes back to foundational work.

1246
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:29,320
Absolutely.

1247
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:32,320
What about films and documentaries?

1248
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:36,480
Man, we just enjoyed a good movie, Red One the other day.

1249
01:28:36,480 --> 01:28:39,560
I don't know if you guys saw that I was, you know, especially for the time of year right

1250
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:43,920
now for Christmas time, but very, very, very good movie.

1251
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,200
But I you know, the previews of Superman just had me.

1252
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:49,520
I don't know about the dog, but I feel like the new Superman coming out is, you know,

1253
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,320
be something that, you know, want to start my kids on a new generation, you know, because

1254
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:56,760
that was for us growing up, you know, Superman getting released back in, you know, back in

1255
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:00,320
the day, and that was, you know, kind of something we saw and looked up upon.

1256
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:01,320
Right.

1257
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:04,600
And, you know, the new superhero needs to step in and do some work, you know.

1258
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,400
Have you seen the documentary they did on Christopher Reeve?

1259
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:09,120
No, I haven't.

1260
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:11,000
I saw it online, but I have not watched it.

1261
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:12,000
No, yeah, it's worth watching.

1262
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:13,000
It was amazing.

1263
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:17,520
I mean, it's so sad, but, you know, seeing the kind of human story behind that and how

1264
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:22,240
he was at his pinnacle in his acting career and, you know, the impact of that injury had

1265
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:26,760
him and all the good he still did, even though he was, you know, literally paralyzed from

1266
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:27,760
the neck down.

1267
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:29,080
It was pretty amazing to watch.

1268
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:30,080
All right.

1269
01:29:30,080 --> 01:29:33,480
Well, the next question, is there a person you'd recommend to come on this podcast as

1270
01:29:33,480 --> 01:29:38,320
a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1271
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:39,320
world?

1272
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:40,320
Yeah.

1273
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:45,160
So I would say if you, I guess somebody from Bouldercrest, Josh Goldberg, the CEO, man,

1274
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:48,640
if you could ever get him on a hook to get him on there, you know, that guy is just such

1275
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:49,640
an inspiration.

1276
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:52,880
While he's not a military guy, he sure gets it right.

1277
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:58,840
And you know, running such a fantastic organization, you know, if you could ever talk to him or

1278
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,560
at one of his team members, you know, they all speak the same language and just, you

1279
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:06,280
know, Ken Falk, you know, would be his partner in crime, you know, those are the guys that

1280
01:30:06,280 --> 01:30:09,520
started the Bouldercrest Foundation is like, if you can get any of those guys on there

1281
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:13,200
to have a conversation with, but I'd say you'll never be disappointed.

1282
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:16,680
Like those guys are just, they're something else, right?

1283
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:21,600
But yeah, if I ever had to say a recommendation, you know, well, I don't know if he's, you

1284
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,520
know, happy, I'm going to throw his name out there, but I definitely would highly recommend

1285
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:26,720
because like I said, I can listen to that guy talk all day long.

1286
01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:27,720
Brilliant.

1287
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:28,720
Yeah.

1288
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:31,040
It's funny, the struggle well program there I've heard mentioned over and over again as

1289
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:32,040
well.

1290
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:33,040
So I've got to, I've got to reach out to them.

1291
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:36,140
Haven't had anyone from that, you know, upper echelon of Bouldercrest.

1292
01:30:36,140 --> 01:30:38,000
So I'll make that happen next year.

1293
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:39,000
Definitely.

1294
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:40,960
Oh, I mean, you will not be disappointed.

1295
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:41,960
I promise you that.

1296
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:42,960
Brilliant.

1297
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:43,960
All right.

1298
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:50,800
So before we make sure everyone knows where to find you online, what do you do to decompress?

1299
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:54,360
Decompression for me, I'm always up for a good run.

1300
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,920
Whether you know, we get done it, you know, I enjoy like the different runs that they

1301
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:01,560
have, like whether it's the, you know, the Philly, you know, one of the long runs at

1302
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:04,400
Philadelphia or you're going to run, you know, there's a small river by us.

1303
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:08,960
That's the three and a half mile track is that's something that I will never turn down

1304
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:10,720
an opportunity to go do something like that.

1305
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:14,520
It used to be the Spartan and Tough Mudder races for decompression, but you know, my

1306
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:17,280
shoulders and hips aren't working the way they should be anymore.

1307
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:20,280
But so I got to preserve them as best we possibly can.

1308
01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:25,560
But I feel like, you know, if I'm going to decompress, you know, I'm going to do that

1309
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:28,640
or we're going to go camp with my family, spend a lot of time with them.

1310
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:32,280
And you know, we spent a lot of time, you know, up in the up in our family's cabin or

1311
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:35,120
down the beach, you know, just kind of enjoying our time together.

1312
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:37,320
And that's the only space I'd ever want to be in.

1313
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:38,320
Brilliant.

1314
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:39,320
All right.

1315
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:42,120
And for people, if they want to reach out to you or learn more about you, where are

1316
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:43,280
the best places online?

1317
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:45,600
So I'm on LinkedIn.

1318
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,560
That's obviously a professional space that, you know, you keep it professional.

1319
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:50,560
It's where it is.

1320
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:53,800
You know, my family and stuff, we're on Instagram and Facebook.

1321
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:58,680
But I spend the time on LinkedIn because it's a better platform to share with like minded

1322
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:00,040
professionals that we serve with.

1323
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:01,040
Right.

1324
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:04,000
And I know your show really attracts a lot of, you know, incredible heroes and human

1325
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:05,000
beings.

1326
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,080
And, you know, I feel like that's the easiest space to find it.

1327
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:09,080
Absolutely.

1328
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:10,880
Well, Jeff, I want to thank you so much.

1329
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,760
It's been such an amazing conversation, really interesting journey that you've had between

1330
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:19,040
all these different roles of law enforcement and then and again, your courageous vulnerability

1331
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,280
talking about your mental health journey as well.

1332
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:25,280
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1333
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:26,760
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1334
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:27,760
Thanks, brother.

1335
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:28,760
I really appreciate the time.

1336
01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:41,280
And I look forward to all you do and keep doing God's work.