1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,400
This episode is brought to you by Thorne, the industry leader in nutritional solutions.

2
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,560
Now Thorne is actually trusted by eight U.S.

3
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,440
national teams and championship teams in the NFL, NBA and Major League,

4
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:17,920
as well as recently becoming the official sports performance nutrition partner of the UFC.

5
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,040
So when it comes to supplements, the tactical athlete space

6
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,360
and the athletic space need two things.

7
00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,760
We need efficacy, meaning the products do what they say they're going to do on the label

8
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,600
and then we need to trust the fact that we are not going to fail

9
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,320
either athletic drug tests or work related drug tests.

10
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,960
Now Thorne has actually been around since the 1980s

11
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,040
where they were used by physicians and hospitals for nutritional supplements for the patients.

12
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,960
They were so successful that athletic teams and even special operations teams

13
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,800
reached out to them and they started supplying them as well.

14
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,720
Very recently, they actually opened their doors to the general public.

15
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,040
Now, what sets Thorne apart is they manufacture their own products

16
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,200
in a state of the art NSF certified facility in South Carolina.

17
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,480
They use only the purest possible ingredients formulated with no stearates

18
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,400
or arbitrary fillers in the cleanest manufacturing process.

19
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,040
Most of you listening come from a profession where it can take its toll physically and mentally,

20
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,160
and many of us are not able to bolster our nutrition purely with the food that we eat.

21
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,120
And that's where supplementation comes in.

22
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,640
So if you're ready to maximize your health and performance,

23
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,440
visit Thorne.com, T-H-O-R-N-E.com.

24
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,160
Take a short product quiz to be paired up with the perfect health and fitness supplements.

25
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,160
And for you, the audience, if you use the code

26
00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:45,440
BTS10, behind the shield 10, BTS10, you will get 10% off your first order.

27
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,120
And if you want to learn even more about Thorne, go to episode

28
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,280
323 of Behind the Shield podcast and you will hear my interview with Wes Barnett

29
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,520
and Joel Totoro from Thorne.

30
00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,840
This episode is sponsored by 511 Tactical, a company that I've used for around 14 years now

31
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,800
and continue to use to this day.

32
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:10,960
And they are offering you, the audience, a 15% discount, not on one purchase, but continuously.

33
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,200
And I'll give you that code in just a moment.

34
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,840
But I want to do a product showcase on their new Atlas sneakers and boots.

35
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,760
So I'm a big believer in the fact that footwear can either improve our health

36
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,360
or break down our health, and the Atlas sneaker actually has a new foam system

37
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,160
that disperses the body weight, whether just the body weight,

38
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,880
whether it's a vest and a gun, whether it's EMS bags being carried.

39
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,880
And on top of that, they're lightweight, despite having the same protection

40
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,480
that's required in the tactical space.

41
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,640
So I have a pair of Atlas sneakers myself and I can attest they're extremely comfortable.

42
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,680
On top of footwear, of course, 511 offers a gamut of uniforms and equipment,

43
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,600
whether it's plate carriers, backpacks, flashlights, you name it, they have it.

44
00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:00,080
All you have to do is go to 511tactical.com and use the code SHIELD15.

45
00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:05,640
That's S-H-I-E-L-D-1-5 at 511tactical.com.

46
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,360
And you will save every time you purchase.

47
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,680
And to learn more about the company, 511 Tactical,

48
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:19,480
you can listen to episode 338 of the Behind the Shield podcast with the CEO, Francisco Morales.

49
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,680
Welcome to episode 446 of Behind the Shield podcast.

50
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,480
As always, my name is James Gearing, and this week it is my absolute pleasure

51
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,000
to welcome on the show, Ben Strahn.

52
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,680
Now, Ben is a veteran hotshot in the wildland community.

53
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,920
He is also a human performance coach and an elite athlete himself.

54
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,000
So we discuss a host of topics from the physical standards in the wildland community,

55
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,040
mental health, some of the factors that are contributing to more and more lives lost,

56
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,840
both civilian and fire in the wildland environment, and so many more areas.

57
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,640
Before we get to that conversation, as I say every week,

58
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,480
please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on,

59
00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,000
subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

60
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,360
Each five-star rating, just taking that moment to do that rating,

61
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,840
helps elevate this podcast, making it more and more visible,

62
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,840
therefore easier for others to find.

63
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,000
And this is a free library of some of the greatest minds on planet Earth.

64
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,480
And all I ask in return is that you share these incredible men and women stories

65
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,120
so I can get them to everyone else who needs to hear them.

66
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,640
So with that being said, I introduce to you Ben Strahn.

67
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:39,640
Enjoy.

68
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,280
Well, Ben, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time.

69
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,000
Your backdrop is beautiful that I'm seeing that you're doing this outside.

70
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,280
So welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

71
00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:55,400
Amen. Thank you very much. I'm extremely excited to be here.

72
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,440
Now, I was racking my brains because it was a while ago that we initially connected.

73
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,040
Do you remember who connected us, who the mutual friend was?

74
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,560
I don't recall it. I remember we did, I think it was, we talked during fire season

75
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,120
and my mind tends to sort of wander during those days.

76
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,120
So I'm not really sure.

77
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,120
Yeah, I know it.

78
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,120
Do you remember?

79
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,760
I don't. And there's so many people that could have been.

80
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,280
I don't want to prattle out a bunch, but whoever it was, I'm sure it was.

81
00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:21,240
Could it be? I don't want to prattle out a bunch, but whoever it was, firstly, thank you.

82
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,640
And secondly, please reach out and kick me up the ass and tell me that it was you.

83
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,680
So for sure.

84
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,280
All right. Well, then I'm looking at, you know, what I'm seeing in the background.

85
00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:33,920
So tell the audience where you are on planet Earth today.

86
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:41,400
Yeah, man. So I live in a small town called Garden Valley in northern California,

87
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:49,120
which is about an hour ish east of Sacramento and maybe another hour ish

88
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,400
west of South Lake Tahoe or the Tahoe area and this nice little rural community up in the hills.

89
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,400
Beautiful. So you get to ski quite easily up there.

90
00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,000
Oh, man, it's it's kind of the best, man.

91
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,120
We have days like right now, it's going to be near 70 degrees.

92
00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,320
And the trails are awesome.

93
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,480
There's I can be in the mountains snowboarding at any moment,

94
00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:19,520
mountain biking or down at the ocean surfing pretty much at the within a day.

95
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:20,360
Like no problem.

96
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:26,840
So it's a pretty, pretty plush, pretty exciting spot that I'm extremely grateful to be living in.

97
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,720
Beautiful. I'm jealous.

98
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,400
We just got back from snowboarding.

99
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,640
We had to go to Utah to do it.

100
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,800
There's no snowboarding in Florida.

101
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,960
Yeah, I imagine not.

102
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,160
Yeah, I think I was watching actually something super hilarious.

103
00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,120
You know, you get lost in those like YouTube holes.

104
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,960
And I was watching this thing where they're saying they're going around each state's highest elevation.

105
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,880
Like, what's the highest place elevation wise in each state?

106
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,720
And I think Florida was like, you know, below a thousand, like a couple hundred feet or whatever it was.

107
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,200
Yeah, like twelve and a half.

108
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,720
Yeah, something like that. Super funny.

109
00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,120
OK, well, that's where you're living now.

110
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,400
So tell me where you were born and then tell me about your family dynamic,

111
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,680
what your parents did and how many siblings.

112
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:09,320
Yeah, no problem.

113
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:16,240
So I was born in Southern California in Orange County in the city of Orange.

114
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:23,000
My parents had us live in there the first eight years of my life before we moved up to Guard Valley here.

115
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,640
But pretty simple, pretty awesome childhood.

116
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,320
My dad was my parents had me super young, so I'm the first of four kids.

117
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,840
I have a sister and then two younger brothers.

118
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,360
And my mom was a stay at home mom.

119
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,680
She had me like, you know, right after she turned 19, a couple of months after she turned 19 or so, I believe.

120
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:51,000
And my dad was, I think, 22, maybe getting ready to turn 23, something like that.

121
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,160
So they were super young parents trying to figure it out.

122
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,640
But we had a lot of good family support.

123
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,880
You know, my mom's family was from the Tustin area and they were pretty close to us.

124
00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:04,280
And so we had a family dynamic was pretty awesome.

125
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,320
And honestly, like I remember my childhood being pretty, pretty awesome, pretty average.

126
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:18,120
Like I don't recall ever having a moment where I was really struggled or had to question whether or not I was loved or anything like that.

127
00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:25,640
So, you know, as far as like privilege goes, like I felt pretty pretty stoked.

128
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,000
Something that I reflect on sometimes.

129
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:42,680
Yeah, well, you probably don't know if you heard any of the episodes, but one thing that I was really my eyes were open to a few years ago was the element of childhood trauma in the rest of our journey as we progress into adulthood.

130
00:08:42,680 --> 00:08:45,920
I listened to you on the Anchor Point podcast, but I couldn't tell.

131
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:51,160
I think I started the car up because I turned it off because I went to a meeting and I couldn't tell if it was you or the host that was talking.

132
00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,320
But one of you mentioned losing your mother when you were 12.

133
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,520
Was that you or was that the other gentleman?

134
00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:58,800
Yeah, that was the host.

135
00:08:58,800 --> 00:08:59,800
OK, gotcha.

136
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,280
So that wasn't your own personal thing then?

137
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,360
No, no, I, you know, I really didn't honestly, I didn't really experience any.

138
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:18,360
I don't remember experiencing any real loss or childhood trauma or any kind of just trauma in general until I honestly joined the fire service.

139
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:28,680
And that's where and that's when things, you know, that's when I started struggling with like or seeing the loss and the realities of life, probably a little more tangibly.

140
00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:44,240
Yeah, yeah. I think that's when I listen to you talk now, you know, and you're as we'll get into it, when you had that self-realization and you started seeking the tools, I think that's, you know, that that's probably partly because you had that great structure as you were growing up.

141
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:55,520
And I think that's sadly what happens to some of our men and women that already have that trauma coming in is by the time they get to that point that we're going to talk about later, they it's crushing for them by that point.

142
00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:03,440
So it's an interesting observation to see how that pays in with either coping skills or or not.

143
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,960
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's 100 percent on point.

144
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:16,640
Well, as far as athletics, clearly you have to be somewhat capable physically to to be a a hot shot.

145
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,920
So tell me about your kind of school age athletics.

146
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:27,840
Yeah, so, I mean, shoot, my parents got us involved in sports right away as as young people.

147
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,840
So, you know, the the sports of choice for me growing up were pretty standard for most kids.

148
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:45,800
You know, you play the soccer, you play the t ball. And as I grew, I think right around age 12 or so is when I really grabbed it, started gravitating a lot more towards soccer.

149
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:56,720
Excuse me. And so, shoot, that's what I I aspired to be some sort of soccer player at some point, you know, like outside of high school.

150
00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,280
This is what I dreamed to be as a kid. So I became pretty obsessed about it.

151
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:14,120
And then, you know, once I got into high school, you know, soccer kind of was my focus as far as actually in a lot of ways, kind of my life, like I kind of lived, breathed and ate soccer.

152
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:29,080
And then I started realizing that, man, if I really wanted to be a good soccer player, I needed to have like this really able body that could be maybe go a little harder, a little longer than other people.

153
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,080
And I kind of found that that was kind of where my strengths lied anyway.

154
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:38,080
So I started running track and I did mostly the sprint stuff.

155
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:51,200
I ran the mile, did the long jump. But this is where high school, junior year or whatever is probably where my obsession around physical fitness really started to, I would imagine, take hold.

156
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:58,520
My folks lived, you know, like I mentioned before, when I was eight, my parents moved us up to the to the fit holes in northern California.

157
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:04,120
And so my folks lived, I don't know, maybe five ish miles away from the high school.

158
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:17,640
And I would regularly run back and forth the school just to just to get a leg up on people so I could run harder and longer in athletics.

159
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,880
Which position did you play?

160
00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,560
I played primarily right wing.

161
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:24,680
OK. In the midfield. Yeah.

162
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:27,320
Beautiful. Yeah. This is a very, very physical game.

163
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,720
I was always usually midfield or or even in left or left back, usually because I'm left footed.

164
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,680
But I know if you had the same thing, look like we're kind of similar, Bill, but I was never the explosive guy.

165
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:42,240
Same in martial arts. I wasn't the guy that was going to win the first round.

166
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,240
But if you beat me in the head for two rounds, I didn't go down and you were tired.

167
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,840
That was it. Yeah. Yeah.

168
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,280
You know, I was a pretty speedy guy. I could race.

169
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:58,320
I could I run pretty dang quick and I felt like I had the ability to beat most people to the ball.

170
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:06,800
If you asked me to dribble a ball like more than five or six times, I was probably going to lose it because I had horrible foot control, ball control.

171
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,520
I could get it to I could get it to somebody and hopefully get by it.

172
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,360
So that was about that was about as good as where I made it.

173
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:21,840
But it's still something I enjoy. Like even now, as an adult, it's a it's a good way to get outside and show competitive and have fun with people.

174
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,320
And so I still play it to this day.

175
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,400
Yeah. Well, that's an interesting conversation.

176
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,360
I ask a few people that are in athletics an observation I made coming from England.

177
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:38,760
I've mentioned the same discussion in previous episodes is because football is our main sport soccer.

178
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:48,080
You tend to see you don't see that kind of peak peak level at school age, but you do see longevity.

179
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:53,640
You get people graduate from school and they play local leagues and they play, you know, like pub leagues or whatever it is.

180
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,280
But they play a lot of times into their 30s, 40s, 50s.

181
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:05,600
And then when I moved to the US, you saw this high, high level of competition, you know, as gyms and all the on the high schools and all that stuff.

182
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:12,600
But then you had that kind of Uncle Rico syndrome where someone would get hurt or they graduate high school or college.

183
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,560
And then their their physical fitness journey would kind of slam into a brick wall.

184
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:22,160
So what I'm seeing as a common denominator is the sport of soccer.

185
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:29,480
Football really seems to be the kind of sport where you can compete at a high level, but still be in good shape,

186
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:35,720
not be broken, where once you graduate from whatever establishment you were playing for, you can keep playing it.

187
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,120
Yeah, man, for sure. I think. Yeah, absolutely.

188
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,360
I mean, there's no slight tackling in the leagues I'm playing in.

189
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,920
So it's pretty, you know, there's like this the gentleman's rule or this common understanding like, hey, man,

190
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,960
we all got day jobs, too. So it's I think so.

191
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,320
I mean, I'm still playing and I'm almost 40 years old now.

192
00:14:53,320 --> 00:15:03,000
And I honestly just love besides the physical aspect of the game and the, you know, the the end shape

193
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,320
ness or whatever, the the cardio, the how it keeps you just in shape is pretty awesome.

194
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,400
But also because I find it to be sort of like a chess game.

195
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,200
You know, I like to play on the pitch and see how the ball moves and how to set up plays.

196
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,200
And it kind of keeps my mind kind of sharp in some aspects.

197
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,760
Beautiful. Well, what about the journey?

198
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,040
You were hoping to be a professional football player.

199
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,720
So how did that shift to you joining the fire service?

200
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,160
Oh, good. Yeah. So, you know, you get to a point in your life and you're like,

201
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,520
yeah, I don't think becoming a professional soccer player is probably going to be in the cards.

202
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:46,240
You know, like I came from a school that was my graduating class was like 64 people or something like this.

203
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:53,000
You know what I mean? So you become very aware that schools that have a much larger population

204
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,920
can pull students that are much better than you.

205
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,840
And when you get to play those people, you kind of realize how quickly you're maybe just not as good as they are.

206
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,200
And that's not that wasn't a disappointment to me. That's fine.

207
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,400
I've always been fairly good at, like, observing those kind of things.

208
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,640
And then redirecting my energy.

209
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,720
But also, so how this this translates into me going to the fire services,

210
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,760
I just didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life.

211
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,920
I always liked the team aspect with sports and kind of doing, you know,

212
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,920
working together to accomplish a mission, for lack of a better word.

213
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,840
And I thought being a firefighter kind of embodied some of that, even as a high school student.

214
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:42,120
So, you know, there's a program that there was a program at my school

215
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:50,760
that allowed you to get on the job training and basic certifications

216
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:56,160
to enter the fire service pretty much almost right away after graduating high school.

217
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:04,720
And so I took advantage of that and got some exposure to some folks and kind of saw like, oh, man, this is this relates a lot to what I actually

218
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,280
enjoy doing, playing soccer and doing athletics.

219
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,280
So it just seemed like a natural kind of progression.

220
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,080
And that's really, really where I ended up landing.

221
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:26,400
And the physical aspect of becoming a wildland firefighter was, I mean, really, really was called to me in some way.

222
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,560
Well, you mentioned the RLP program in the Anchor Point podcast was this.

223
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:37,840
And that's another reoccurring theme that's really come out of all these conversations I'm so fortunate to have.

224
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,880
And that's the power of mentorship.

225
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,720
And I don't know if it's the same in the wildland fire service, but definitely in structure,

226
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,680
there's a big diversity conversation.

227
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:56,960
And rightly so. You know, you want your department to represent the men and women in the cities and counties that you serve.

228
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:05,120
However, the poor management take on this is that you go around and you find a bunch of people that fit the pigmentation,

229
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,880
the sexual orientation, whatever it is, and you check the boxes and you fling them out there and that's it.

230
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:21,000
What I've seen is an incredibly positive solution to that that's actionable and creates phenomenal male and female firefighters is mentorship.

231
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:29,560
So whether it's, you know, as we saw in the film, Eric Marsh giving Brendan McDonough a chance after, you know, his drug problems,

232
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:36,040
or whether it's a friend of mine, Chris Hickman, that has a firefighter mentorship program here as well, that's free.

233
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,120
So it doesn't matter where you live, doesn't matter what your background is.

234
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:42,520
If you can make it to that place, you will get free training.

235
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,240
There's scholarships into the fire academy.

236
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,960
There's a pretty smooth transition from that into local fire departments here.

237
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:57,680
So how much weight do you give that R.O.P. program for your own personal journey,

238
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:10,440
somewhat directionless after realizing that professional football wasn't going to be your route to allow you to be guided into a positive profession that we inhabit?

239
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,960
Wow, that's a really good question.

240
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:18,120
I could honestly say I don't think I've reflected on that much.

241
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:36,640
So that brings up some unintended or unexpected gratitude because there for sure were people in there that were mentoring me along that maybe I haven't really realized until this moment.

242
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,920
So I think I think it was I think that was great, you know, but you're a high school kid, too, man.

243
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,840
You're taking these classes. In reality, you're just so you don't really know what the hell you even want to do in life, really.

244
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:54,520
You know, and there's the the specific moment that I can remember where I was like, OK, I'm going to give this a shot.

245
00:19:54,520 --> 00:20:02,880
Was a day where we inside that R.O.P. program, we did a day of line construction out in the field for wildland fire.

246
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,240
And really, I didn't I didn't really have any desire to be a wildland firefighter when I first started this journey.

247
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,000
I wanted to be a structure guy. I wanted to be on the red trucks.

248
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,520
I wanted to be in the cities and doing those types of things.

249
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,000
Like it just seemed that seemed like more exciting to me.

250
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:29,000
And honestly, I didn't know shit about what even a wildland firefighter was, you know, like growing up as a high school kid wanting to be a fireman.

251
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,040
That's not the first thing that goes to your mind.

252
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:42,960
So but as far as the mentorship goes, it's that day when I'm out there cutting line and I'm, you know, I'm it was an all day affair.

253
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:50,000
We're slamming tools into the earth, you know, digging, digging this control line simulated.

254
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,080
And there's people from the Forest Service, the agency that I work for there from.

255
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:09,480
And they're telling you how to do it and they're coaching you and they're and they're taking the time to help you understand how to be successful within that given tactic there and our objective.

256
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:17,160
And I remember a couple of people in particular and.

257
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:26,680
And then maybe that was the first time I actually got that kind of mentorship within that world that made me realize, like, hey, this could be something.

258
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:35,560
Because after that, after that, that day, we were pulled aside by me and me and my buddy were pulled aside by a couple of the Forest Service guys that are helping teaching us.

259
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,160
And they're like, hey, you should apply. And that showed, you know, they showed interest in us.

260
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:46,440
And I was like, whoa, that's pretty crazy, man. I'm just barely 18 or 19 years old at the time.

261
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:57,360
And but, yeah, man, I think that's an interesting question that you asked me, because I don't know if I've reflected on the people within that program that definitely were mentoring me.

262
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:04,640
And there's something for me to chew on there for a little bit outside the mentor, outside the mentorship of my my parents.

263
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:12,680
Like my my mom and dad and my my grandfather, my grandmother, like they were always excited that I was doing something like this.

264
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:21,240
And the fact that I could get a job straight out of high school two days after graduating was, you know, I had zero desire to go to college.

265
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,320
So this was this was this probably excited them, excited me.

266
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,800
But, yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's an important point.

267
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,000
Like needing mentors in your life doesn't mean that you don't have great parents.

268
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:45,160
But if your parents have nothing to do with mechanics, carpentry, power line work, fire department, whatever it is, then it's up to us.

269
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:52,920
You know, I'm using the term loosely leaders in the professions already that are looking for the next generation and helping to bring them up

270
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:59,160
rather than being that dude and the lazy boy rolling your eyes because the new guy doesn't know what they're doing.

271
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:07,440
Well, for sure. And honestly, you know, so I drive by the place every day that I took that R.O.P. class to go home.

272
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,240
I drive by every single day to get to my house.

273
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:17,800
And just the other day, I saw the kids going to school there, getting ready to take that class.

274
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,840
I was like, oh, man, you know what? I should go talk to these people.

275
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:28,960
And I was like, because just like you said, like there's there's a there's a mentorship opportunity there to talk to these kids like, hey, man,

276
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,680
like I did. I was exactly where you were at. And look at me now.

277
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:39,680
I'm running my own hotshot crew. And I think it's I think that's that's kind of maybe speaks to what you're saying.

278
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:47,640
So absolutely. Well, with your own personal journey in the fire service, you had a history of playing sports physically.

279
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,440
How well were you prepared for the the entry level?

280
00:23:52,440 --> 00:24:03,200
I think I was well, well, when you're 19 years old, freshly turned 19, you're you think you're indestructible and undefeatable.

281
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:14,880
So, you know, I thought I was probably the shit. And that very quickly was that that idea of myself was very quickly changed.

282
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:22,280
The first time we did a hose lay on a fake perimeter on a fire up a hill.

283
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,120
And I was like, holy crap, this is really, really hard.

284
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:37,160
But as far as like physical training from the day to day, I was me and my buddy were probably because my buddy got the same job as me on the same engine

285
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,440
the same day, two days after graduating high school. So it was pretty awesome.

286
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:49,440
But we were the most I would say probably most physically fit. But when you start rolling hose and pulling hose and spraying water and

287
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:59,840
humping hose packs up the hill that way, you know, 60 pounds or whatever and going back and forth and doing that for all day, like that what my ass.

288
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:06,840
But those kinds of things have always been a challenge that I was willing to try and

289
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,720
well, first, I would recognize it and then try and better myself.

290
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:19,600
I kind of enjoy that aspect of physical training is not being good at something, but trying to become better at it.

291
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,400
Yeah, it was interesting for me. I was trained in Florida. And as we mentioned before, it's very, very flat.

292
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,640
And I don't even remember. I swear to God, I don't remember any wildland training whatsoever.

293
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:39,840
So I'm sure it was a chapter in some lecture in the minimum standards, but had a couple of small fires in the brush in Florida.

294
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:46,200
And we have the Palm Esso. So they're actually surprising because they're green and they burn like crazy, but nothing that's really running.

295
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,640
No topography to kind of hinder us. And then I got hired in California, Southern California.

296
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,800
And we start this wildland training. Oh, we're going to do progressive hose lays.

297
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,880
Progressive hose lays? Is that like hose lays that are OK with people for more walks of life or what are we talking about?

298
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:09,040
And then I know. And so it was so new to me, cutting line, you know, even just like wearing the wildland gear.

299
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,320
So I think a lot of people in the municipal departments don't understand,

300
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,400
especially when you're getting into more mountainous areas, just how taxing, you know,

301
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:26,280
just getting the end of a hose line to to, you know, a fire or cutting line.

302
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:35,280
I mean, just just a three, three foot amount that you've scraped is I mean, we just did an absolute snapshot on our training.

303
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,160
And I was like, holy shit, people do this for days and weeks at a time.

304
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,840
And I'm tired. And we did it for an hour. Right.

305
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,240
Yeah. I mean, shoot, dude, it's that's it's pretty funny.

306
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,160
So like we we do. It's not funny, I guess, but it's it's a different type of thing.

307
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,960
You know, so like my brother worked with me on a hot shot crew.

308
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,840
And he's been on he was on hot shot crews for a number of years for the agency I work for.

309
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,920
And he he works for Redwood City Fire now.

310
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,360
And we were bullshitting the other day when we were doing that.

311
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,680
That Goggins challenge and and he we're just talking about the difference of physical fitness.

312
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,360
Like I was asking him because he looks big, he looks way bigger than he's ever been.

313
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:23,160
Not not in like a chubby way, but in a like, you know, wider shoulders, just strength wise.

314
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:29,280
He just looks strong. And he says like, yeah, man, we just move heavy shit really quickly all the time.

315
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,920
And I'm like, OK, that's that's pretty cool.

316
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,680
And it backs up with kind of some of the research that we see where coming out of Missoula,

317
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,040
they have this cool triangle and each point has a represents something.

318
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,800
So it's strength, speed and endurance.

319
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:53,320
And if you take a structure firefighter, you can you can put them almost almost directly in the middle,

320
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,440
maybe a little bit more leaning towards the speed and strength stuff,

321
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,040
but almost right in the center as far as like what they need to be successful at their job physically.

322
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,720
And in a wildland firefighter, specifically hot shots is where they get the stutter from,

323
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,200
that is almost right in the bottom of endurance.

324
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,200
So it's it's pretty it's pretty interesting.

325
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:23,960
But, yeah, it's like we that's that's the point of our job is to we tell the new guys coming on every every year.

326
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:30,640
Man, this is a marathon like be ready to go all season long for six months, just doing this thing,

327
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:40,640
hiking hills, carrying things that weigh a fair amount between 45 to 100 pounds and you got to be able to keep the pace all day,

328
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:46,000
just cut in line, moving bushes and walking, lots of walking.

329
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,760
Yeah, that's funny because I've heard, you know, many wildland firefighters say,

330
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,520
oh, I can never do the structure firefighting.

331
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,280
And then the structure guys say, I could never do the wildland.

332
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,920
It is they are kind of two different types of men and women, and even in Anaheim,

333
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:07,640
they actually had quite an aggressive wildland component to them and they had, oh, yes, vehicles and all that stuff.

334
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,000
But even then, there was a separation.

335
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:16,160
The guys that were lining up to deploy and the guys that myself was like, right, while you're gone, I'm going to protect this city.

336
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Let me know how you go. Yeah.

337
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,040
Yeah. But the culture is, I think, pretty similar, which is funny.

338
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:29,880
I just got back from New Mexico and my to visit, I was visiting my best friend who works for Albuquerque Fire.

339
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,080
And he works on the busiest station within that city.

340
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,560
And I had misjudged what time he needed us to be down there.

341
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,400
So I had a flight that I showed up really early and he was still on shift.

342
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,920
And he's like, well, man, you should come over to the station, do a ride along.

343
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
And I was like, OK, that sounds pretty awesome.

344
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,120
I've never done that before.

345
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:58,680
And even though the job was much different, there was and mind you, we went to three calls when I was there, a vehicle accident,

346
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:05,640
like a patient of some sort that was on hospice and then a fire, like a structure fire.

347
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,880
Like, so I was like, oh, do we just hit like the trifecta in my opinion?

348
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,760
And I got like a little taste of what they do.

349
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:20,640
But the brotherhood, the family, the like the shit talking, the the just camaraderie in general.

350
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,360
I was like, man, this is almost identical to what I experienced within my job.

351
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,000
So I think the the cultures aren't too far off.

352
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,640
Maybe the job is different, but the people are pretty similar.

353
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:40,800
Yeah, no, there's definitely definitely a parallel journey, just like you said, it's a different kind of skill set with with entry.

354
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,680
One thing I've noticed that I think fosters a lot of camaraderie is setting the bar high,

355
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,800
you know, going through that kind of crucible to achieve the position that you have, whether you're a hot shot, smoke jump or whatever it is.

356
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:59,920
What were the kind of entry tests for you and then do you have annual retest to maintain that level?

357
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:10,120
Yeah, man. So here's where it gets tricky in my line of work is our only requirement from a physical standpoint to be a wildland firefighter.

358
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:18,880
For my agency is the is a pack test, which is a forty five pound pack.

359
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,560
You have to well, you have to wear a forty five pound pack, walk three miles and under forty five minutes.

360
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:38,040
And that is a in my opinion, and many others, a fairly doable situation and maybe too low of a standard

361
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,720
to get in to do our job based on what our job actually requires us to do,

362
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,880
which is to have a fitness that's in our opinions, much higher than that.

363
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:55,960
But, you know, hot shot crews, we have we have.

364
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,760
It doesn't to me, it doesn't really matter.

365
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:06,560
We're always going to expect our folks to be able to do more because we want them to be extremely physical fit,

366
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,280
physically fit, because that's just going to make the job, it's going to make it more enjoyable.

367
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,640
We're going to be safer. We're going to be more efficient.

368
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,760
We're going to make better decisions. And I think everybody can understand that.

369
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:24,960
That's the the better you are physically, the more shit you can do and the safer you can do it.

370
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:34,360
So I like to tell my folks and it's it's pretty difficult sometimes because, you know, hiking is primarily our job.

371
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:40,480
So we really try and tell folks and we try and get to the folks once we know who we're going to be hiring.

372
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,520
We get to these folks right away and start that mentorship like almost immediately and letting them know,

373
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,720
like we schedule runs, we schedule hikes, things like this.

374
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,240
But it's not uncommon to see us, you know, be able to run 10 miles.

375
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,800
If I say, hey, today we're going to run 10 miles, like everybody should be able to do that.

376
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:07,320
But we do a lot of load carry stuff. So we do a ton of hiking and and mostly bodyweight calisthenics.

377
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:15,160
But as far as like a standard, we really don't have one besides the the pack test, unfortunately.

378
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,280
Do you retest the pack test every year?

379
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,960
Every year you have to do the pack test, yep, to get your red card.

380
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,480
So if you fail, you don't get to be a well-known firefighter anymore.

381
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000
Yep, you don't get your red card to go fight fire that year.

382
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,600
Yep. Yeah. So does that surprise you on the municipal side?

383
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:39,200
There are a lot of agencies that once you take your initial physical test, you're not held to any standard after that.

384
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,040
I would say that is surprising. I didn't know that.

385
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Oh, yeah, it's it's random.

386
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,960
So you take you take on your side, you take one test and when you're done with that, that's it.

387
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,920
Yes. So again, I always prefaces there are some great departments out there

388
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,560
that are the anomalies that totally understand what I'm talking about.

389
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,320
They hold their people. They said right from day one, you're going to be held to the standard.

390
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,240
But what has happened that I've seen and bearing in mind, I've worked for four departments now.

391
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:09,880
So I've got to put in as East and West Coast.

392
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:16,400
So I've got a pretty good understanding than a fifth one that I did volunteer for for a bit.

393
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:23,000
Some of them are more progressive and they actually have a test that they do.

394
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,400
But it's kind of smoke and mirrors because there's no nothing comes from it if you fail.

395
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,440
So there's no punitive out.

396
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,600
Now, my thing is, it's not about head hunting every firefighter.

397
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,320
That's not a physical rock star. Quite the opposite.

398
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,840
If you maintain it from day one, like you guys, you don't get the opportunity to start falling behind.

399
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,960
You know, you know, it's coming every year.

400
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:51,000
What we see now is we do think a lot of CPAT, a lot of a lot of the country at the moment.

401
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,360
And just like you said, with the PAC test, it's it's a good attempt.

402
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,760
But honestly, the time that people are given to do it, I think is a little piss poor for what we're required to do.

403
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,000
It's really not that hard.

404
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,680
And I just redid it a couple of years ago myself, 44 years old.

405
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,880
And we're still, you know, way, way under where it needs to be.

406
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,200
But my point is now you get people at a deconition.

407
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:20,560
Now those people get into administration or they get into the unions and now they oppose these fitness standards.

408
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,920
So all the men and women in there that get it, that are trying to stay safe, they're trying to stay in shape,

409
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,360
they understand that this pertains to our ability to do a rescue.

410
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,720
They're fighting uphill to try and maintain that.

411
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:38,520
So I just interviewed a lifeguard in Hawaii and lifeguard industry has an annual standards.

412
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,240
Wildland has an annual standards, but municipal, very few do.

413
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:44,280
Many, many don't.

414
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:51,720
And I think that's sadly one of the reasons why we see some of the ill health and line of duty deaths that we do.

415
00:35:51,720 --> 00:36:00,320
Yeah, I have a couple of questions for you because this is something that comes up within my agency all the time.

416
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,400
It's like, hey, we do have this annual thing.

417
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,600
And you're making me actually see it for a different perspective, honestly,

418
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:15,240
because having that annual thing actually does maybe hold people to an annual standard going year after year.

419
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:22,480
Our job is incredibly physical, like even if we didn't have that, even though that thing is maybe suboptimal,

420
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,480
I don't want to use the word standards because I probably shouldn't.

421
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:36,560
But like what we are trying to hold our crew, the level that we need people to be able to work at to be effective at our job is way fucking higher than the goddamn.

422
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,360
Pack test. And that's what we expect our guys to meet day one.

423
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,080
They should be ready to kick ass. But.

424
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:50,120
We've been trying like hell, this conversation comes up all the time, like, how do we how do we develop?

425
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,160
Because the smoke smoke jumpers have a different pack test.

426
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,600
They have a different standard that they have to pass to be able to get their red card to fight fire.

427
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:06,520
And so, you know, hot shot crews are known for being the best at what they do within wildland firefighting.

428
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:19,920
I would I would say all day that we're probably the best wildland firefighters in the world due to our training and the amount of fires that we we go to.

429
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:26,760
And so there's the argument to like, well, why don't we have a better standard beyond the pack test to to test on?

430
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:34,400
And my opinion on this has always been, well, the science behind the pack test is actually pretty legit.

431
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:40,960
It was developed a long time ago. And if you look into what it's telling you, it actually makes sense.

432
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:50,320
But at the end of the day, if you want to have a higher standard, the leaders of the modules need to make sure that that takes place.

433
00:37:50,320 --> 00:38:05,560
So is that something within your department that you think is more lacking? Is that leadership within stations or cities or departments are not pushing our folks to be more physically fit?

434
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,880
Or do you actually think a standard would fix that problem?

435
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:17,560
Yes, and yes, because as I forget who it was now, someone spoke to recently, it was like you shouldn't need Spanish standards.

436
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520
I think it was someone in the special operations community, but I agree 100 percent.

437
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:30,520
And I'm sure that you know, the community that you inhabit, the community that I inhabit, the men and women that I used to work out with every shift.

438
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,120
It doesn't matter as a standards because we're going to work out regardless.

439
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:44,160
You know, right. Right. You have, as I point this out a lot, you have that very lower percentile depending on your hiring practices and standards and everything that might be larger or smaller.

440
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,880
But that's the group of people that just got through the cracks and come hell or high water, they're going to do the bare minimum.

441
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,200
There's nothing you can do about them.

442
00:38:52,200 --> 00:39:03,120
But that chunk in the middle below the highly motivated and the highly unmotivated is a group that you can really, really influence with leadership, a group that wants to do the right thing,

443
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,200
but kind of can also find themselves dragged down by the wrong thing, depending on on the environment.

444
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:16,400
So I think that's where the standards come. If you set the bar high and at the front door and people walk through, here's their expectations.

445
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,840
Then then then you it's hard to slip from that. It's hard to say, oh, but you didn't tell me from day one.

446
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:28,960
If you're a, you know, a Navy SEAL and you went through buds and hell week, you know down well what's expected of you.

447
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:35,080
And those those guys are held to a standard. And if they don't meet that standard, they're not in the SEAL program anymore.

448
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:44,000
So I find it so hard to comprehend that in our community, that's been allowed to happen, that we've removed the standards.

449
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,440
And I have to be very, very clear. I'm going to talk about this in a minute.

450
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:59,640
Another side of this coin is that many, many departments are in an environment that sets them up for failure when it comes to wealth and fitness, excuse me, health, health and wellness, wealth.

451
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:14,360
But, you know, I mean, we're sleep deprived, we're understaffed, we're overworked. So that absolutely then sets the seesaw on the on the wrong way as far as lack of motivation, testosterone levels, you know, motivation, all that stuff.

452
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,160
So that's the thing. It's like it's not blaming one entity.

453
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:27,280
It's taking all these elements that we can control and putting our standards up with the lifeguards, with the wildland firefighters, with the special operations community, where it should be.

454
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:36,400
Because while you're out on a hillside cut in line, there's a municipal department running on your family and you're expecting them to be the same level that you are.

455
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:52,520
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think what you said, too, is also super true about the, you know, that having a standard that's supported by the agency that you work for or whatever, that's at a level that sets a good expectation.

456
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:58,360
That's the expectation for the people entering there like, OK, I know I got to be here.

457
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:04,200
I think that's a pretty legit way to look at that. And I mean, that's something we do with our people on my crew, too.

458
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:10,160
You know, it's like they all know what the practice is that most of them, all of them know that they're going to be taking the pack practice.

459
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,680
And that's not really that, you know, that's really not where their fitness needs to be.

460
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:26,600
But within, you know, the first once I get a list of folks that I'm working with, it comes I shoot out a welcome letter and I talk about what we're going to be doing from a physical fitness standpoint.

461
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:32,600
Like, hey, this is what you to be. Here's what's to be expected. Here's what the first couple of weeks are going to look like.

462
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,240
It's going to be shitty and we're going to be pushing you guys.

463
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:40,760
So be ready day one, because here's what you're going to here's what's going to happen.

464
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,760
So but, yeah, man, I think that's I think that makes sense for sure.

465
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,760
Now, with the practice, are you doing it up through the mountains or are you doing it flat?

466
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,960
It's flat ground. OK, so that's another area that's probably not as realistic.

467
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,160
For sure. It's really good. It's really good at giving people shin splints.

468
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,840
That's about it. All it's good for.

469
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,440
All right. So you went in, your fitness level was good.

470
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,320
You you know, you found yourself into the hot shot program.

471
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:26,680
When did you personally start becoming aware of mental and or physical wellness challenges in the wildland community?

472
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,080
So just to I mean, the physical fitness stuff.

473
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,560
So the first five seasons of my career was on an engine.

474
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:44,120
So I knew right away that the physical fitness was going to be was there just based based on the fact that the first time I did a hose lay it kicked my ass.

475
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:49,240
And, you know, from there, it's like, OK, I really want to be a hot shot at some point.

476
00:42:49,240 --> 00:43:01,000
And after some some pretty cool experiences in my life, and so I got a hot shot crew and I was I was ready for it because I I knew it was all about after, you know, five seasons of already fighting fire.

477
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,840
So I was always pretty aware of the physical fitness challenges.

478
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:17,680
Basically, just from doing the job and being exposed to people that had mentored me, honestly, since we keep talking about mentoring, I have told me, like, hey, man, you need to be ready for this if this is what you want to do.

479
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,480
So that none of that stuff really was a surprise to me.

480
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:36,080
But the mental health stuff, man, I think the first time I dealt with something that was challenging for me mentally was my very first season.

481
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:45,200
And I jumped around a lot because I got 80, but on the Anchor Point podcast, I talked about losing a friend my first season.

482
00:43:45,200 --> 00:44:03,880
And that was for sure pretty challenging, but there is something even more challenging or not more challenging, but another type of challenge where I had to we went on a suicide call where someone had hung themself down along a river out in the middle of nowhere.

483
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:16,560
And we needed to go get them out of the tree and then transport them to the ambulance. And that was the first time I had ever experienced any kind of real death.

484
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:25,880
And like physically, like in contact with it, like moving the person had to go up in the tree and cut them and lower them down.

485
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:34,440
And I was 19 years old. And I feel like I mean, shoot, I remember very clearly that entire experience.

486
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:41,640
And back then, there wasn't really a lot of like, oh, you dealt with this. Let's talk about it type of thing.

487
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,360
You know, like no peer support. It was just like, all right, tomorrow is the new day.

488
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,960
Let's get back to work or even moments after that experience happened.

489
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,360
You know, it's kind of just like, oh, it's just part of the job.

490
00:44:52,360 --> 00:45:05,000
So all that stuff happened, you know, and really, and really, I don't really even think I recalled the mental health stuff even even in the first times.

491
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:19,360
It was just I picture it like a glass, you know, like the suicide things, just a couple of drops like my losing my buddy in a vehicle accident after fire season that I just bonded this made this amazing relationship with,

492
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:28,200
you know, a few more drops, you know, then you have, you know, other friends that pass away or get hit by a tree or like there's a burn over.

493
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,840
And and really, it doesn't even have to be someone close to you.

494
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:37,440
It could be something like the the Granite Mountain folks, you know, like they're a hotshot crew.

495
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:47,960
And I was on a hotshot crew and you see kind of your mortality through the loss of other people, you know, and like, even though you didn't know any of them, you're like, dude, this that could happen to me.

496
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,960
And so the glass just starts to keep filling up.

497
00:45:51,960 --> 00:46:10,280
And then I don't think I really understood the mental toll that was taking on me until probably 2016, 2017, 2018 is when I really was like, fuck, from a personal standpoint, I was struggling.

498
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:19,320
And it took some it took some kind of interesting took a lot of patience to try and start to figure out what that was.

499
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,400
Yeah, well, I want to explore that, because I mean, you you have a very interesting journey through that.

500
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:30,440
But prior to that, just so we can set it up, I talk a lot about all the different elements we touched on childhood trauma.

501
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,480
You know, you and I were both very lucky that we had a pretty non-traumatic childhood overall.

502
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:45,600
You know, this environmental stress, which I will get to in a little bit, whether it's understaffing, whether it's an organization that's micromanaging, all these things.

503
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,920
But another area is sleep deprivation.

504
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:57,120
And when I think about, you know, overwork, you know, understaffed wildland organization definitely seems to be at the top of that pyramid, too.

505
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,120
So when you're in.

506
00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:59,880
I got a lot to say on that.

507
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:08,680
Yeah, please. So tell us, you know, tell us about the the sleep habits, the ability to get rest in the crews that you work for.

508
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,080
Yes, I'm glad you popped this up.

509
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:12,640
And I don't know if I shared this with you.

510
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,400
I don't know. Maybe this is just a coincidence.

511
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,760
But yeah, so sleep sleep is a huge.

512
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,240
So I am just so there's full transparency.

513
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,760
I'm a human performance nerd through and through.

514
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,560
Like, I love optimizing myself mostly and coaching people.

515
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:35,880
Like, I coach people in the private sector because I love it all from mental health to physical fitness to nutrition.

516
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,520
And I hold a bunch of certs and all this shit, but I just enjoy doing it.

517
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,440
And I also do it within the program.

518
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:47,840
And so our sleep is fucked like we it is it is horrible.

519
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:57,560
And in 2018, our agency basically said came to the hotshot community.

520
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:05,200
And the 2018 was crazy. That was the campfire, the car fire, lots of just crazy fires in California.

521
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:12,680
And it was the worst fire year to that to date before this last one.

522
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:19,400
So it was a gnarly year. And and so so the region five, which is California,

523
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:25,480
basically came to the hot shots and said, hey, like all the superintendents in region five said, hey, like,

524
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,680
we need to figure out what fatigue looks like and how to manage fatigue.

525
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:33,680
And they coined this fatigue management kind of thing as agencies do.

526
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:41,160
And so they asked the hot shots to soups to like basically look at how we could help or or define what

527
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,280
fatigue management looks like and better improve the stuff.

528
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,520
And so I happened I was a captain at the time and I was a part of this conversation.

529
00:48:49,520 --> 00:49:00,000
And because of my passion around performance, I weaseled my way into this group and talked about how we need to look at sleep.

530
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:08,600
And mainly because I was wearing a little device on my finger called an or ring for like the previous three years,

531
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:18,760
tracking my sleep religiously and trying to figure out what it was all about, because I was just I just felt like crap all the time on assignment,

532
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:27,000
because our tour is 14, 14 days on two weeks on assignment and then you get two days off and then you do 14 days and then you get two days off.

533
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,880
Then you get 14 days and you rinse and repeat that for six months.

534
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:40,200
And on fire assignments, you're you're held to a 16 hour shift, but on a hot shot crew, you're very rarely doing just 16 hours.

535
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,640
You're doing. Many, many more hours.

536
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:49,640
You're sleeping in the dirt, you're in the smoke. And so you're you're just in an environment that's just shit.

537
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:56,080
So I wrote this paper and I sent it off to the regional leadership team to be looked at.

538
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:05,200
And it was like. It was a brief, brief explanation on on what sleep is,

539
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:14,600
the negative aspects of not getting sleep, you know, from hormones to risk of cancer and really just increased

540
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:21,680
raise in all cause mortality when you start seeing reduction in sleep under seven hours or so.

541
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:27,640
And obviously, as you progress further down in time, it it elevates significantly.

542
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:38,200
And then I incorporated the data that I had pulled using my my oring as like, hey, here's what my sleep looked like for literally six months on fire season.

543
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:44,320
And the amount of sleep that I was getting. And so, you know, I was averaging somewhere between.

544
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:50,760
Five and six hours on assignments and as it progressed further and further and further into the season,

545
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:57,760
just the less sleep I was getting and the amount of inflammation you get from that kind of experience is pretty shitty.

546
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:04,320
And how does that translate onto the fire line as far as a decision maker and leading your men and physical fitness standpoint and all that kind of stuff?

547
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:12,960
So so anyways, what's really awesome, though, is they really that my region was extremely ecstatic about that.

548
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:18,160
So we were able to purchase some biofeedback tools through a company called WOOP.

549
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:30,080
We were able to put these sleep tracker type devices on three different hot shot crews in California from superintendent, captain, squad leader and lead firefighter.

550
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:40,480
So every level of the crew position wise to look at what sleep looked like amongst these people and was able to gather that data,

551
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:48,320
give a presentation and to the hot shots in region five and national meeting in 2019.

552
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:57,960
And the Forest Service loved it. And they went all in and bought a shit ton for three years to put on as many people as possible.

553
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:06,040
And the whole idea behind this is to not change policy necessarily.

554
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:19,360
It's it's been anchored in the entire time to identify personal sleeping habits amongst the individuals so that they can change and adjust their habits in real time.

555
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,600
And it's about improving the individual.

556
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:34,080
And it humbles me every single day that I have a conversation with somebody that has told me about the positive experiences they've gotten from wearing such a device like that.

557
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:38,520
Beautiful. Well, that is that is half the conversation.

558
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:44,080
The reason I say the reason I say that is because this happens a lot in the municipal side, too.

559
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:49,680
So this is going to sound like nothing compared to the wildland schedule.

560
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:54,480
But this is, you know, obviously, 12 years, 12 months a year.

561
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,480
And the municipal, a lot of them federal, they got 72 hour work.

562
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:09,920
We saw a lot of them in 56. And when I have conversations about sleep deprivation, the answer from a lot of the brass as well, you know, when they're off, they need to go to bed earlier and this and that and sleep hygiene.

563
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,240
And I agree 100 percent.

564
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:22,760
The other side of the argument is that if the person that's bagging your groceries or preparing your taxes or cutting the meat in the butcher shop is working 40 hours a week,

565
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:28,600
why are the men and women that are saving lives working 50, 60, 70 hours a week?

566
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:37,880
So what I've seen sometimes in my one of my previous departments, they did a whole sleep study and then they're like, yeah, you're sleep deprived.

567
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:44,280
And that was it. So so my you know, I know this is a case with with your agencies, too.

568
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:55,240
The other thing that needs to happen then is we are killing our men and women through sleep deprivation and through understaffing. We need to add more manpower.

569
00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:58,360
Yeah, yeah, I think you're I think you're right.

570
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:07,800
I mean, man, it's hard to talk about this subject because there's a lot of things behind the scenes that going down.

571
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:19,520
But here's the reality, like we know even before putting these little devices on our wrist, we were getting shit sleep and we were sleep deprived.

572
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,600
You can you can go to any person and ask them, are you getting enough sleep?

573
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:33,080
And they would say, hell no. But what this device did was it took us from a place of knowing to understanding what's going on.

574
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:40,720
And now we have this data, even though it's not a sleep study, it's more of like this kind of cool experiment.

575
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:48,280
But yeah, man, the solution to this is, I don't know, like for you guys, it probably is like a staffing thing.

576
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:54,040
I could imagine like getting you need more people to kind of fill the void so that people can get better rest.

577
00:54:54,040 --> 00:55:10,280
And I agree, like we should be taking way better care of our our emergency workers and first responders and stuff to be able to give them the best possible outcome from a physical standpoint,

578
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:18,360
mental health, all this shit so that they can be successful because you and I have seen it, man, and choose these folks up.

579
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:26,560
Like when they go home, they don't I mean, it's it's all fine and Danny's like, hey, when you go home, like you're going to get rest.

580
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:33,880
But what if they have kids? You know, like what if they have I mean, a lot of my my brother Josh has two young kids like, you know, how hard it is for him to get sleep.

581
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,960
It's like balancing like, OK, I could go to sleep or I could spend time with my young boys.

582
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:46,200
So like there's there's a lot of different variables. But for us, the sleep problem is.

583
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,160
Is it's a little different. It's not necessarily we need more people.

584
00:55:50,160 --> 00:56:02,760
I think it's it's a we need to we need to start thinking about a different way of doing doing business because.

585
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,960
The time, I don't know, it's hard. There's a lot. There's so many variabilities, right?

586
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:16,320
There's like sleep is a big piece of the pie, but we have to be very aware of how we make decisions because the wildland firefighter,

587
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:22,800
at least in my my my job working for the feds, we don't make a ton of money, honestly.

588
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,960
It's all over time based. And until we switch.

589
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:36,920
And so we change things around that, I think it's going to be really hard to be able to provide good adequate rest for our folks,

590
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:42,760
because we rely so much on overtime to actually make a living.

591
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:48,280
So, well, with the sleep, the sleep thing for me is, I think, one of the elephants in the room when it comes to mental health.

592
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:54,200
And that's why I think for the municipal department, if we have better staffing, we could separate the shifts more.

593
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:59,080
So like a lot of the Northeast, you know, they do 24 on 72 off,

594
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,360
which gives them actual at least a full, full day to recover in between.

595
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,560
You know, so with you, like you said, it might be the way that you fight a fire.

596
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:14,120
It might be the fact that you're paid well enough so that then there's not over time positions, actually other staff positions.

597
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:21,720
But the mental health impact of sleep deprivation is huge, whether it's long term with, you know, depression, anxiety,

598
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,080
suicide ideation or even short term with decision making.

599
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:30,920
So I think I guarantee you, if we looked at some of the line of duty deaths in the municipal side, in the wildland side,

600
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,080
some of those decisions would probably be attributed to sleep deprivation as well.

601
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:46,040
So with your own journey, you know, now, by this point, you've got, you know, what 16, 17 years of working these wildland cycles.

602
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:52,360
So tell me, you know, kind of where you saw the cracks in your own mental wellness.

603
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,320
Well, I think you just talked about some of it was the sleep stuff, right?

604
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,320
Like, I mean, you're exactly right.

605
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,080
Sleep definitely has like such a big impact.

606
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:12,600
Well, really on everything, it kind of starts there in a lot of ways as far as like how you create foods,

607
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:17,320
how you perform physically and just the way you are, how irritable you potentially could be.

608
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:31,520
So so addressing sleep for me was kind of the first step into identifying like, OK, this this is a part of the problem.

609
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:38,960
Like, this is part of maybe what I'm doing or some of the things I'm thinking from a mental standpoint.

610
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:45,720
And I've kind of been pretty good at like being an observer, at least I like to think I am, you know,

611
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,160
being able to like kind of see some of my faults and kind of confront them in a way.

612
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:58,360
And so sleep always was the big one for me as far as like the first thing to sort of check the box to like, OK, I got that dialed in.

613
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,680
Like, now what? What's the next step? I'm still feeling this shit.

614
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,080
So if just so we don't jump ahead, so kind of walk me through when, you know,

615
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:12,280
where that low point was for you and what the kind of thoughts that were going through your mind.

616
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:22,840
OK, yeah, so the first low point that I felt in my career was after 2018.

617
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:32,520
We're on the car fire up on a hill and hotshot crews are extremely relied upon to

618
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:41,440
not only provide backbreaking work or whatever, but also manage very difficult situations for

619
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,080
other people managing the fire, like divisions and things like this.

620
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,480
And we are professional problem solvers.

621
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:55,720
We come in when people are having a hell of a time solving a problem and we can be a force multiplier

622
00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:00,600
and really figure out the problem in a safe way and complete the mission.

623
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:09,560
And in 2018, because of the amount of fires we were in, man, we were just launched into all of these different.

624
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:16,120
Challenges where the primary objective was not necessarily fighting the fire,

625
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:19,560
but making sure people didn't get killed by fire.

626
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:26,360
And it became extremely hard to do.

627
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:33,680
And we had some pretty challenging experiences, honestly, where the fire was doing some crazy shit and blew up.

628
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,480
And we were safe, like we didn't have any injuries or anything that year.

629
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:45,920
But, you know, some people passed away that season and not it wasn't a direct influence or whatever from the decisions we made.

630
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,560
But you're a part of that environment.

631
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:55,400
And I remember having these really sobering feelings of like, man, I just don't know if this is what I should be doing anymore.

632
01:00:55,400 --> 01:01:03,080
Like if this is what my life is going to be, it's just like really stressed out about trying to keep people from getting killed all the time.

633
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,520
And trying to get people out of situations.

634
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:10,640
And so I started pursuing.

635
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:18,360
Well, the problem was, as soon as that thought entered my mind, I was challenged with something I think a lot of people deal with.

636
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,520
And this is this idea of identity.

637
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:33,400
And in the agency, I think we in any fire public servant type of job, we tend to identify really hard with the position that we that we fill.

638
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:38,720
And we'll even tell people like, hey, my name's Ben, I'm a firefighter or I'm a hotshot.

639
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,160
You know what I mean? And that becomes who you are.

640
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:49,480
And when you start having feelings that challenge that macho aspect of what you you were identifying with,

641
01:01:49,480 --> 01:02:01,360
and all of a sudden you have these thoughts of sadness or compassion or whatever, it just it it doesn't line up with the way you kind of identified yourself with for so many years.

642
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:13,160
And it becomes extremely emotionally challenging if you haven't made the realization that I was able to finally come to, which was I'm more than a firefighter.

643
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:20,640
And so, yeah, 2018 was kind of the first aspect of me starting to find those challenges within myself.

644
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:26,160
And I had a really hard time relating with people at work.

645
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,440
I was thought I had this new path I was going to follow.

646
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:37,800
And and I was like, man, these guys are just macho and like they chest bumping and hardcore dudes.

647
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,000
And I was like, man, I just don't feel like I want to be that anymore.

648
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:52,480
And it wasn't until I had a conversation with a really close friend of mine where he told me, he's like, hey, dude, like, you know, first off, you are more than what you say you are.

649
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,400
But you also can be the person you want to be has a place in that environment.

650
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:04,720
In fact, people, that's what people want. They want this authentic authenticity to be there.

651
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:10,360
So, yeah, well, I keep no, no, I was going to say the identity thing is huge.

652
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:21,040
And I see it in especially when people transition out, whether it's through injury, whether it's through retirement, whether it's being fired or whatever it is,

653
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:26,720
where if all you've seen yourself is as a police officer, a Marine, you know, whatever.

654
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:38,760
And we see it and we see those vets that, you know, at 67 years old, they're dawned head to toe with firefighter, military, whatever it is to let everyone know, hey, by the way, I'm this thing.

655
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,880
And there's nothing wrong with being proud of the profession that you've done.

656
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:51,200
But at the same time, if you're just clinging to that identity, just like you said, that is a very, very toxic, you know, philosophy.

657
01:03:51,200 --> 01:04:00,520
So having other tribes, whether that tribes, your family, whether it's a crossfit group, whether it's, you know, triathlon, you know, your football team, whatever it is,

658
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:08,800
that starts kind of letting you realize, yeah, you are a human being with many layers and one of the layers is a hotshot.

659
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,800
But that doesn't mean that's all of you.

660
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:13,680
Yeah, I think, yeah, man, for sure.

661
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,440
And I think obviously I'm super proud to be this.

662
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:23,080
And when I was able to reflect on this stuff, I obviously was like, OK, cool, like I can keep doing this job.

663
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:29,640
And really it was because I was able to, man, we live our, we do these careers and things like this.

664
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:37,600
And the reason why we initially started to do these things can sometimes get lost.

665
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:46,680
And really what happened to me was in some regard was, A, yes, I was identifying with something that could change.

666
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:53,720
And I'll expand on that in just a minute. But B, I had completely lost the reason why I was doing this job.

667
01:04:53,720 --> 01:05:04,320
You know, you get lost and like you have a family, you have this, you become you become you start the job as a young man with no with no responsibilities.

668
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,480
I ain't married, I don't have kids, I have a truck payment maybe.

669
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:15,600
And and that's it. And a dresser full of clothes that is mobile in the back of my truck, like I don't have any ties.

670
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:23,080
And then you start to have, you know, you get a wife, you have a kid and you have these things and you become a provider.

671
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,400
All of a sudden, and all of a sudden, your why kind of changes a little bit.

672
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:38,920
And for me, and in 2018, after having those conversations with my friends, I realized, fuck, why did I why did I even do this job to begin with?

673
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:47,520
And it was going back to this, this main purpose that actually breed this life back into me.

674
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:59,800
And I was like, fuck, I did this because I enjoy it, because the purpose it gives me, because I can help people because it constantly puts me in uncomfortable positions

675
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:12,440
that give me opportunity to to like learn something about myself so I can actually be the best version that I possibly can be and and project this person that I want to be.

676
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:33,040
And so that actually is something I teach to people now is like, hey, like I just taught at the Academy this last three days and I taught a whole section on the why and like why it's important to have a strong why and the and coming to an intrinsic reason

677
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:42,200
for the reasons why you do stuff, because that purpose will be something you can tap into later when shit gets hard.

678
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:50,360
And and then on the other side of that, like I talked about identifying and something that I just keep reminding myself all the time.

679
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:59,240
And what I tell some of the folks that work for me, too, is everything in life can change everything and just about everything.

680
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:04,760
So saying or identifying, saying saying you are something is one thing.

681
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:11,560
If you understand that. Everything can change at an instant.

682
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:21,600
Your name, the place you live, you know, the your job, your career, whatever, all those things can change.

683
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:29,440
And so saying I'm a firefighter and identifying super hard with that is not accurate.

684
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:40,640
And what I try and tell people and draw attention to is like you as a person are so much more than your job.

685
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:44,520
You're so much more than your name. You're so much more than the place you live.

686
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:54,240
You are this beautifully. Undescribable thing like nobody can actually say exactly what you are.

687
01:07:54,240 --> 01:08:02,480
Where this complex. Chemical chain reaction of sucking in air and breathing out CO2,

688
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:09,480
and it's the exchange of different chemicals and electrical firing and all this kind of crazy thing.

689
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:14,000
And like, and ultimately, like you can't really say what that is.

690
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:20,640
Human is as close as we can get. These words, words or concepts, and they're great for describing briefly

691
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,280
what we're looking at to somebody else potentially. But they aren't.

692
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:33,680
But they're I think they're they don't accurately depict exactly how fucking awesome people are and how beautiful this life is.

693
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:40,440
And that's when I say don't identify, it's to remind myself that what we truly are

694
01:08:40,440 --> 01:08:49,080
is this incredibly beautiful, special thing. And that actually motivates me to be a better person.

695
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:55,160
Yeah, I love that. And I think the why is is absolutely the core of, you know,

696
01:08:55,160 --> 01:09:00,480
that's that's what allows some seals to get through buzz without ringing the bells.

697
01:09:00,480 --> 01:09:07,320
What allows some fire recruits to go through the mazes and climb the aerial and these things that also has people tapping out.

698
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:17,600
You know, that's that burning desire. And I think what I've seen as a guy about we're roughly the same age is you enter a service profession,

699
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:24,440
whether it's police, fire, you know, the military, whatever it is, because you want to make a difference.

700
01:09:24,440 --> 01:09:31,280
And that's a soft part of the human psyche. It's the yang. If we're looking at the Chinese symbol.

701
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:36,440
But in order to do that, the vehicle that you've chosen, you're not going to protest and wear sandals and,

702
01:09:36,440 --> 01:09:38,920
you know, sit outside the White House with a sign.

703
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:45,200
You're going to pick up tools and and basically kick shit in and go pull people out of burning houses or,

704
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:50,720
you know, cut line on them on a California hillside. So that's very much the hard side.

705
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:58,080
The problem is the complete firefighter police officer soldier is the yin and the yang together.

706
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:06,040
But what I find, especially especially in the men, is that it's almost like we start to negate the soft side.

707
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,400
And then we become this black circle, which is just hard, hard, hard.

708
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,280
Oh, I'm Schwarzenegger. I'm Robocop. No, you're fucking not. You're not.

709
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:20,400
You just do a thing that when we're in the heat of battle, you have to rely on that part.

710
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:26,960
That's the part of you that allows you to run towards gunfire or burning car when everyone else is running away.

711
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,600
However, the burning desire is actually the soft part.

712
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:38,600
So when you start negating that, firstly, you lose your why you forget why you're showing up.

713
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:47,840
Now you're not self motivated to exercise, to sleep well at home, to eat well, to work on your craft.

714
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:54,480
But the other thing that I see is so detrimental when it comes to mental health is now, like you said, I'm a firefighter.

715
01:10:54,480 --> 01:11:00,080
I'm hard. I don't need to, you know. Oh, yeah. I just saw those kids die. It doesn't bother me.

716
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:09,440
Yes, yes, it fucking does, because you started this profession to help people and you just had a horrendous thing where you saw people die or in terrible pain.

717
01:11:09,440 --> 01:11:19,800
It should resonate with you. So this as we get to that kind of avatar of the firefighter, identify with that rather than the human being wearing a uniform.

718
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:24,240
It's an incredibly dangerous place for the human mind to go.

719
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:35,400
Yeah, yeah, man, I think, man, some of the things that you're talking about, I agree with and I think and it brought up some stuff like, you know,

720
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:41,720
I think we do in a lot of ways start this profession to potentially help people.

721
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:53,720
You know, that might be a why. I think my why evolved a little bit and and because the job created a lot of freedom.

722
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:58,080
But my why now is has changed a little bit or evolved a little bit more.

723
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:04,200
And and really, my life is about is about learning how to be a better person.

724
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:19,840
And if we can't show ourselves the compassion that we need in the moments that we need it and the tough love sometimes and and take care of those essential needs that we all have around just health, sleep, nutrition, all this shit.

725
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:29,200
Then we would be we're going to be shitty people, especially when we're trying to help people in the professions that we've chose.

726
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:36,120
If we have to, we have to be real with ourselves and that this calloused.

727
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:45,160
Well, it's really just like, I don't know, maybe you could tell me to like, I feel like these thoughts of like this identity that we come into,

728
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:52,880
like it's it's it's a false sense of identity, but it's also like I think there's a lot of ego that's involved with that.

729
01:12:52,880 --> 01:13:00,680
And that's why it sticks around in some way as far as like, you know, this hard shell of a man.

730
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:07,080
You know, you see it in the men like you're saying a lot, but this hard shell of a man like trying to be this macho type of thing.

731
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:16,120
I think I think a lot of people have this walking around this ego that kind of keeps those walls intact.

732
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:25,000
Yeah, well, I mean, I think we all have a history, we all have a human journey up to the point we put the badge on and we all have shortcomings.

733
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:33,280
You know, I know, I mean, I actually suffer heavily from God, I always forget the phrase imposter syndrome.

734
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:38,360
So even when I've achieved things, I'm like, yeah, but it's not as good as so and so.

735
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,360
And then they were like, oh, you do this, this and this.

736
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:46,400
I'm like, yeah, but you know, so and I think that's that's the thing is when you put when you stand up,

737
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:51,120
they can imagine a carball car in the old video shops of a firefighter and you stand behind it.

738
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:54,840
Well, everyone sees the firefighter, so you don't have to show them all the real shit.

739
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:56,920
So I think that's a part of it, too.

740
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:00,640
And I think that that what I find is very positive.

741
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:04,800
And I just had to deal with this myself last couple of years is when you refine that,

742
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:11,760
why, and you realize that you're ultimately trying to be a good person and trying to leave this world better than than you found it,

743
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:19,800
then it doesn't matter if you're wearing a uniform or God forbid you got hurt and now you're sitting behind a desk or you transitioned out, you retired.

744
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,720
If your journey is still to be a good person, you're coaching the community, you start a nonprofit,

745
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:29,760
you're doing something that makes firefighters safer now, whatever it is.

746
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:31,600
You're still on that same path.

747
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,760
It's just the ego, like you said, the magic trousers.

748
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,120
We put them on all of a sudden. We're attracted to the women.

749
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:40,840
You know, that that's a facade. It really is.

750
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,440
So, you know, the good person that you are.

751
01:14:44,440 --> 01:14:48,800
One of the chapters was you throw on a uniform, you did some dangerous shit and you saved some lives.

752
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,280
But that doesn't define you.

753
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:58,560
And you don't you're no less a firefighter the day you put that uniform down and you go and do something else good in the world.

754
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:00,640
Yeah, man, I think that's a JIT also.

755
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:09,720
And like, you know, it's about following the passion to like if you have a really strong why these things like starting a nonprofit and these,

756
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:17,720
you know, being a fireman and saving people, kicking the door and doing whatever, right, that that's beneficial for the world.

757
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:23,240
The reason why you're doing that ultimately is just to be the best version of yourself possible.

758
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,480
And I say this all the time is like it's a positive byproduct that that helps people.

759
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:39,440
The more times you can tap into this this rad person that you really are and and chase the passions that you feel inclined to do,

760
01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:42,640
that that motivate you to be a better person.

761
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:50,160
That's that's like I think that's where people you see like the best work out of people is because they're ultimately their main goal,

762
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:55,440
whether they realize it or not, is just to be the best version of themselves.

763
01:15:55,440 --> 01:16:01,520
And that authenticity is like moths to a light and people get stuff from that.

764
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:07,600
And that's what kind of progresses and other people kind of bleeds that positive energy into the world.

765
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:14,040
Absolutely. Well, you touched on on 2018 being your kind of decline at that point.

766
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:18,560
So where was the lowest point you found yourself?

767
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:22,640
Yeah, the lowest point I found myself.

768
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:25,480
And you're talking outside of that 2018 year.

769
01:16:25,480 --> 01:16:27,480
Oh, yeah. Just I mean, in that entire journey.

770
01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:33,480
Yeah, for sure. Well, after 2018, this I rode this energy for a while.

771
01:16:33,480 --> 01:16:38,120
Right. I refigured out my why I tap back into it and I was like, hell, yeah, I'm motivated.

772
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:40,760
I'm going to go get my get the job.

773
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:47,680
I put my priority on for since I started in this agency.

774
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:49,760
And I'm going to be a hotshot superintendent.

775
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:55,240
Like, that's what I want. So last year, I got that job.

776
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:58,640
I got my dream job in April.

777
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:06,720
And it was in the midst of covid kicking off fire seasons, getting ready to hammer.

778
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:13,800
And we entered the most epic fire season that I have ever been a part of, that anybody's ever been a part of or witnessed.

779
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:23,440
And it was exciting. And I never had any people would come up to me and tell me, like, oh, man, what a year to get the soup job.

780
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:26,520
And I never really bought into that.

781
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:28,720
I'd be like, yeah, but this is my job.

782
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:36,320
Like, I don't the fire season isn't something that I can control and dictate, like how intense it's going to be.

783
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:40,160
So why should I give a shit about it? I'm out here doing my job.

784
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:44,520
My responsibility is make sure my guys are safe and we can complete the mission.

785
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:49,320
And I never had any negative thoughts the entire season.

786
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:56,600
I was actually it was a fantastic season as far as like we did some hero shit, as people like to call it.

787
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:04,240
And we did some had some great shifts, had a ton of laughs and everybody came away safe.

788
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:12,760
But then November hit and this is when we around the time we lay our folks off.

789
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:17,440
Our season, so half of our crew is a seasonal staff.

790
01:18:17,440 --> 01:18:22,880
And so we lay off half the crew and then, you know, it's still we're still dealing with covid as a thing.

791
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,960
And then they just shoved all the permanence onto a telework schedule.

792
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:33,080
So we have we have about nine permanent employees that work year round.

793
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:35,680
And we got shoved on a telework schedule.

794
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:44,800
And then it's, you know, it's to no fault of anybody, you know, like it's really hard for everybody to see everyone's perspective all the fucking time.

795
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:49,320
But, you know, you get the bosses and you get the other programs that you're working for, you know, the fire season's over.

796
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:55,760
But then they keep they immediately start asking you to get involved in all this other shit.

797
01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:00,080
And I was like, man, I just I just stopped fire season.

798
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:01,720
Like, I need a deep breath.

799
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:06,200
Like, we just I haven't seen my family, I haven't seen my kids.

800
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:13,720
And it's and it's your perspective on life becomes really it's really hard to see where you're going,

801
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:18,600
because it feels like you're putting out spot fires, basically.

802
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:22,240
From using an analogy from the fire wildland fire world.

803
01:19:22,240 --> 01:19:26,400
And so you're basically you're just your lack of perspective.

804
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:29,440
And all of a sudden, things became very real to me.

805
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:39,200
I'm like, man, I just got my dream job and my life is now going to be comprised of six months of being away from my family,

806
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:43,800
watching my kids grow or not getting an opportunity to watch my kids grow.

807
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:53,920
And and and then fire season's over and then I just get bombarded by other people's bullshit.

808
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:58,240
And this is just going to be my life for the next 11 to 12 years.

809
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:02,400
This repetitive cycle, like just living on this hamster wheel.

810
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:10,400
And it was that thought that all of a sudden I started to have thoughts of suicide.

811
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:16,760
And I can honestly say that I've never, ever, ever had thoughts of suicide until that point.

812
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:23,040
In fact, I was the person that would hear about someone having these thoughts.

813
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:28,400
And my initial reaction would always be like, well, that's stupid, that's a selfish thought.

814
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:32,000
And don't they know that there's so much to live for?

815
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:38,560
And then here I am having these thoughts myself and telling myself those things.

816
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:42,160
And those things are completely, utterly unhelpful.

817
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:46,120
They do not help whatsoever.

818
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:54,040
And and so I find myself in this position of like, well, I can just step off the hamster wheel.

819
01:20:54,040 --> 01:21:01,440
And I never really got to a point where I was ready to do the deed.

820
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:08,200
I do remember sitting in my bedroom at one point and I have a pistol locked up in a gun safe.

821
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:13,160
And I got in the room and I sat on my bed and I just had this sinking feeling.

822
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:18,680
I was like, man, that's two steps away and I can just do this right now.

823
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:22,040
And that feeling was incredibly uncomfortable.

824
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:27,720
And man, I can feel how that feels right now.

825
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:31,600
Like it was a powerful experience.

826
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:42,680
But I must say, because of that, I'm fortunate because I'm where I'm at now and I didn't do it.

827
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:50,560
And I learned a shit ton from that, just having those feelings and those and being able to.

828
01:21:50,560 --> 01:22:00,600
And I think because I had a strong childhood, like we talked about earlier, and because I've been kind of a human performance nerd,

829
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:07,760
you know, mentally and physically, that I had acquired a bunch of tools in my life that I was able to put to work.

830
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:15,360
And that ultimately, the utilization of those tools is what got me through it.

831
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:21,800
Well, firstly, thank you for sharing that, because every single man or woman that comes on here and shares their story

832
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,640
illustrates everyone listening that they're not alone.

833
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,200
This happens over and over and over again.

834
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:36,280
One thing I want to ask you, because you actually mentioned that, you know, you have this old school mentality of, you know, again, so and so killed themselves.

835
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:37,400
Well, how selfish?

836
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,200
Now their kids and wife are left behind.

837
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:48,360
What I've actually found as I got to interview people that got very, very close, some pulled the trigger, didn't go off, some jumped off a bridge and survived.

838
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:59,040
I mean, just crazy, you know, absolutely there is there is an absolute common denominator, bearing in mind that the brain by this point is broken,

839
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:03,640
you know, with this through sleep deprivation, trauma, all these compounding things.

840
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:07,040
It's at a point where it's not functioning the way it's supposed to.

841
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:12,000
They all reported a feeling of being a burden to their family.

842
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:17,800
So in their mind at that moment, the thought was to to alleviate the burden.

843
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:20,920
It was actually an act of selflessness.

844
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:22,400
So it's not doesn't mean it was right.

845
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:25,200
It was completely distorted in their brain.

846
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:28,480
But at that moment, they thought they were being selfless.

847
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:33,440
Was that in the equation of when you were thinking sitting in your bedroom?

848
01:23:33,440 --> 01:23:37,160
Yeah, for sure, man, like, absolutely.

849
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:41,000
Like I'm having these realizations of like, fuck, man, I'm on this hamster wheel.

850
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:44,280
Like, how is this for my family to experience?

851
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,880
Like my wife has to deal with this shit now, too.

852
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:52,520
My kids don't get a dad like I come home after a two week roll and like I'm irritable as shit.

853
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:54,520
I feel like things should be a certain way.

854
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,400
And like I've just a menace.

855
01:23:57,400 --> 01:24:03,720
And I'm like, so I'm just going to do these do this, live this life to my like my to my wife and kid

856
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,440
and treat this way for the next fucking 12 years or whatever it is.

857
01:24:06,440 --> 01:24:13,160
And and for sure, like I was like, well, I could just, you know, do this thing right now.

858
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:18,320
And then, you know, my wife gets like a some insurance money, you can pay the house off,

859
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:23,240
like live a better life, maybe maybe find a guy who's not a douchebag.

860
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:27,240
Like, you know, like some of these thoughts for sure that that I think that idea was

861
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:30,320
there for sure, you know.

862
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:31,880
Yeah. Well, it's an important thing to tell.

863
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:37,520
And thank you again for sharing that, because as long as we have that judgmental philosophy,

864
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:41,680
then we never understood understand what these men and women are going through, you know,

865
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:42,760
right these last moments.

866
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:46,560
So understanding and identifying if you're having those thoughts yourself,

867
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,240
listening that that's not normal and you're wrong, you're not a burden.

868
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:54,040
And obviously, the reality is you do leave that that trauma with the family is left behind.

869
01:24:54,040 --> 01:25:00,040
My wife actually lost her boyfriend before me and I saw it firsthand, that trauma left behind.

870
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:04,160
But we also have to, you know, be compassionate and understand that the men and women that

871
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:09,560
are finding themselves in that place are, you know, that they're they're wiring is off.

872
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:11,240
And I don't mean that in a patronizing way.

873
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:15,200
I mean, in a physiological way, like they are literally not thinking the way that the

874
01:25:15,200 --> 01:25:17,680
average person normally thinks.

875
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:21,680
Totally, man. And really, I mean, we've mentioned the anchor point a few times.

876
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:27,120
And the main reason why I wanted to go on that particular podcast at that moment is

877
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:32,840
because this, you know, I I did that podcast maybe two months or maybe even a month or

878
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:37,640
whatever after having those feelings and being able to work through it and be really

879
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:41,800
patient with myself. And then I remember listening to some other podcasts about mental

880
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:43,720
health within my agency.

881
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:49,600
And it's and there was a lot of conversation of a younger generation, people basically

882
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,120
saying like, oh, well, the agency doesn't have my back.

883
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:56,440
No one's calling me. I'm having these feelings, but no one's recognizing that.

884
01:25:56,440 --> 01:26:05,520
And it's not to say that we don't need better things within our agencies to help support

885
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:10,520
people. I think we should always be striving for something more and having those resources

886
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:14,360
for folks. And I'm deeply involved with a lot of those things for sure.

887
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:18,880
But ultimately, what I wanted to do when I came on there was to tell people like, hey,

888
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:23,440
you're not fucking alone. Like, you're not alone. We need to remove the stigma.

889
01:26:23,440 --> 01:26:28,600
Like it became has become aware to me that like talking to more and more people, that

890
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:36,080
these are not uncommon things that happen. Like people have these thoughts regularly.

891
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:42,760
But we recognize it as such a negative thing or this thing that we need to like or we're

892
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:48,360
a burden or whatever instead of just being still and going like, OK, I'm having these

893
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:53,400
thoughts. Where are they coming from? And how can what do I need to do to like try and

894
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:58,680
look deeper as to what what's going on here? And ultimately, that's what I did because

895
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:03,040
of the tools I've had and the experience I've had diving deep into who I am.

896
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:09,240
But yeah, I mean, it's I want people to know for sure, since we're talking about this,

897
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:14,440
like you're not alone. There's a lot of people that experience this stuff. And you you do.

898
01:27:14,440 --> 01:27:19,840
You're not a burden at all. You have the ability to get past this. You really do. You just

899
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:25,120
have to be super brave and have a ton of courage and look at look at what look at your life

900
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:28,600
and what's going on. Yeah. And I think that a huge thing for people

901
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:35,080
to understand is that there are reasons for it, reasons that you can address. So for,

902
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:38,760
as I mentioned, you know, this childhood trauma, that's a huge element in a lot of the people

903
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:43,120
that I've had on here. This organizational stress, this relationship issues, the sleep

904
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:47,960
deprivation, there's, you know, obesity. I mean, all these things that factor in that

905
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:53,360
create this perfect storm. So understanding that, A, you're not crazy. You're not weak.

906
01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:56,960
You're not being a pussy. You're not being a coward. You're not being any of these things.

907
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:01,840
If I had a near career ending back injury, that was a compounding effect of everything

908
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:06,520
that happened up to that point. Sleep deprivation again, being huge. But it would be the same

909
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:13,080
as me taking myself out because I didn't want to be a burden versus working through it,

910
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:17,020
which sucked, which really fucking hurt, which was frustrating, which was two steps forward,

911
01:28:17,020 --> 01:28:21,280
one step back. But I ended up returning to the fire service stronger than I ever was

912
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:27,660
before. So people forgiving themselves and understanding that there are compounding factors

913
01:28:27,660 --> 01:28:32,880
that got you here. And those same factors can be unstacked and placed back where they

914
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:37,360
came from to, to actually not even put you back to where you were, but make you even

915
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:41,000
more resilient than you used to be. It's just going to take work.

916
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:46,480
Oh, for sure. I think the key word you said there is forgiveness. Like we need it for

917
01:28:46,480 --> 01:28:50,880
everything in our lives. Like you talked about like a childhood trauma and stuff like this,

918
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:56,400
right? Like in some of the stuff that I do in coaching, like we talk about these as stories,

919
01:28:56,400 --> 01:29:01,520
like stories unwillingly given to you and how those impacted you, you know, between

920
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:07,760
the ages of birth and seven years old, where you basically become the person you are because

921
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:13,480
that's when you have the most neuroplasticity and these stories you can carry, you carry

922
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:19,560
all the way through childhood. And, and that's part of identifying too. You identify with

923
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:25,640
these things and then you get to a point where you're just super unhappy. And when you can

924
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:30,960
look at those things and challenge what you've believed your whole life and come to a place

925
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:36,680
of forgiveness and forgive everything for that has happened in the positions that you

926
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:42,400
are, that's when you start to, like you said, you unstack and restack. And then you can

927
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,640
show an immense amount of gratitude for those things that have happened in your life because

928
01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:48,640
at the end of the day that they've made you who you are.

929
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:53,720
Absolutely. Well, so before we kind of transition, because I want to talk about overall, you

930
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:58,200
know, wildland fires and the fact that they're getting bigger and that kind of thing. But

931
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:03,680
so tell me about you personally, you, you had that darkest moment. What were some of

932
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:08,760
the tools that you identified that you then saw begin to work?

933
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:14,680
Right. Well, the first tool that I utilized was my beautiful wife.

934
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:17,520
Calling your wife a tool.

935
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:28,160
Oh shit. She's going to hear that. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, she is a tool, I guess,

936
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:33,240
but in the, in a good sense. But, uh, so I just went to her right away and was just like,

937
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:39,240
I'm having this, this shit's happening to me and how I need, I need time to think, you

938
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,520
know, I like create, create some space. And that's one of the things that I've learned

939
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:47,760
through like meditation or mindfulness or whatever kind of thing you want to call it.

940
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:51,160
But for me, it was just, I need time to think, I need time to give myself some space and

941
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:57,600
really process what's going on. And so she's like, okay, uh, I'll, I'll take care of this.

942
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:03,160
And so she, we got the girls over to my mom's house or some friend's house and, and I gave

943
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:09,720
myself space to think. And ultimately what happened was I just was really extremely patient

944
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:18,500
with myself and I meditated or did mindfulness work for damn near, um, two straight days

945
01:31:18,500 --> 01:31:24,840
and uh, did a ton of journaling and wrote all my thoughts down. And I came to a place

946
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:32,860
where, man, all the, I had, I re I needed to, I was not taking care of my basic needs

947
01:31:32,860 --> 01:31:40,040
for me. I was living a life that was full of desire and wants, and I was asking a ton

948
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:46,680
of questions and searching for the answers that didn't exist. And, and, and those answers

949
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:53,040
and those questions I was asking were based around this desire for whatever to fill a

950
01:31:53,040 --> 01:32:00,720
void or fulfill some sort of happiness or joy in my life. And, um, but I knew those

951
01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:06,560
material things couldn't do it. So I had to, I ultimately, ultimately came up with a list

952
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:14,000
of things that I need personally to be a successful human being, um, so that I could set better

953
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:21,720
intentions in my life, uh, and, and just be a better human. And I can talk about those

954
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:28,280
if you want. Oh, please. Yeah. So like my basic needs, um, and these are, these are

955
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:32,840
personal to me. And I think they could be a little different for some folks. And, and

956
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:37,360
I'm not attached to these ideas either. I am very willing to let go of these and let

957
01:32:37,360 --> 01:32:43,240
them evolve on their own and turn into other things or be simplified or, or whatever. But

958
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:51,560
my first, my first need for me to be successful is having a, a knowledge of good nutrition.

959
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:59,440
Like what am I putting in my face? You know, like, is it, is it a bunch of junk food? Um,

960
01:32:59,440 --> 01:33:04,640
then I probably it's how's that going to affect me? So it's about nutrition or it's about

961
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:11,620
defeating the body, the right, uh, nutrition through food so that I can, because our body

962
01:33:11,620 --> 01:33:18,000
is just a meat sack of chemical chain reactions. Right. And so like we have to understand basic

963
01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:23,920
human, uh, uh, physiology and we can't deny that. So we need to be providing ourselves

964
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:31,600
the proper nutrition. So that's the first one. And, um, the second one is proper movement

965
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:35,720
or a knowledge of movement. And the reason why I say this is because while I'm saying

966
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:40,760
the knowledge of is because I really think a lot of the things that happen within our

967
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:46,620
society right now is just a lack of education. And so I have spent a lot of time educating

968
01:33:46,620 --> 01:33:52,480
myself on all these, on all these basic needs, um, so that I could be successful. So, so

969
01:33:52,480 --> 01:33:58,040
the next one's proper movement and I sort of incorporate sleep into that as well. And

970
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:06,960
so, uh, it's for me, it's setting up a routine where I can be moving every day without compromise

971
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:11,000
and I'm providing that need because if I'm eating good, I'm moving good, I'm sleeping

972
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:17,200
good. I am starting my day off with the best foot forward and all the other things after

973
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:24,320
this fall into place pretty easily or put me in a position where I can actually look

974
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:33,440
at them, um, with the best positive outlook. So, so it's, uh, it's nutrition, it's movement

975
01:34:33,440 --> 01:34:37,280
and sleep, like I said, is incorporated into that. And then my next, uh, basic need or

976
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:43,520
understanding is the ability to observe. And I talk about this as I want to be able to

977
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:49,160
observe myself. Like I would be a person sitting on a park bench, observing people playing

978
01:34:49,160 --> 01:34:55,760
in a park. I'm, I'm detaching myself from what is going on. And I'm observing myself

979
01:34:55,760 --> 01:35:01,120
as I react to the external world and what that looks like. And it's just, it's super

980
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:08,040
simple. You just watch yourself react to stuff and don't attach yourself to the feelings

981
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:13,800
that you're feeling or, or the emotions or whatever. You just see them for what they

982
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:18,240
are. You understand that they come up and then you just let them pass, just like someone

983
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:25,280
walking by you. So that's the, that's the third one. The next one is this idea of identify,

984
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:31,000
like don't identify. And it's not to say that we don't identify. We are always going

985
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:35,120
to identify with something and emotions is biz. One of the bigger ones, right? Like,

986
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:40,280
I'm fucking angry or I'm pissed off or I'm so happy right now. Like, but all those things

987
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:46,240
change so, so quickly. Um, you know, I used to tell people I was, my default emotion was

988
01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:53,080
anger. And like, I was just a naturally angry person. That's not true. It's an emotion.

989
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:57,920
It can be changed and it can be replaced with another emotion. And like I said, I, I identify

990
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:06,320
not identifying is just me understanding and asking myself this, this kind of important

991
01:36:06,320 --> 01:36:11,440
question where it's like what we always try and ask ourselves, like what, what am I, you

992
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:16,120
know, what am I, what am I? And it's really me defining it in a different way and asking

993
01:36:16,120 --> 01:36:21,040
a different question, which is what am I not? And I think by asking myself that question,

994
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:27,640
it gets me closer to what I actually am. So that's, that's, that one. The next one is

995
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:33,160
acceptance. This is something I kind of struggle with a little bit from time to time, because

996
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:40,960
naturally in our careers, we are trying to control things, right? Like the wildland firefighter

997
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:48,080
is trying to control the only natural disaster, in my opinion, um, that we as humans try to

998
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:53,680
control, which is wildland fire, which is insane to think about. So, and because of

999
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:57,320
that, we're trying to control the environment. We're trying to get people to fall in line

1000
01:36:57,320 --> 01:37:01,720
to do what we need them to do and all this stuff. And so our jobs is about kind of this

1001
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:08,920
idea of control. And at the end of the day, um, I need to remind myself all the time,

1002
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:14,440
like, there's a lot of things outside of life that we cannot control. We can't control most

1003
01:37:14,440 --> 01:37:20,480
of the external world. And I describe this to people as picture yourself driving down

1004
01:37:20,480 --> 01:37:26,040
the freeway and someone slams into the back of you in the car. The world is a complex,

1005
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:35,840
unique world with so many different things happening and none of that shit you can control

1006
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:41,560
most of it. And, uh, it just is what it is. And I talked about it. It's like, uh, like

1007
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:47,240
I didn't, I used to hate it when people would say that, um, Oh, it happened for a reason,

1008
01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:52,480
right? Cause it was like this, this idea that like, Oh, some shitty thing happened to them

1009
01:37:52,480 --> 01:37:58,720
or something they did happened. And there was an effect from that, that they weren't,

1010
01:37:58,720 --> 01:38:02,280
that wasn't intended. And then it was just a cop out because they could say like, Oh,

1011
01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:05,960
it was happened for a reason. And I used to hate that. I'm like, no, man, I create my

1012
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:11,400
own destiny. But years ago I came to the conclusion that, well, I think that's true to some regard

1013
01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:15,400
in some regard. Like there's, like I said, the world's complex things are happening and

1014
01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:20,560
you have to accept that you can't control that all that stuff. And you also can't control

1015
01:38:20,560 --> 01:38:25,560
people like, you know, I'm a dad, I have kids and you're constantly yelling at your kids

1016
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:29,760
to pick up this and do that and do your homework and brush your hair and do all this crap.

1017
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:34,160
Right. And you forget to understand like, man, I just need to accept them for who they

1018
01:38:34,160 --> 01:38:38,880
are sometimes and just let them be them instead of trying to make them do what I want them

1019
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:44,600
to do all the time. And so it's also about accepting people for who they are. So that's

1020
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:55,120
acceptance. The next piece after that is you are creation of your thoughts. And this is

1021
01:38:55,120 --> 01:39:01,440
after that guy slammed into you on the freeway, you get to create your own destiny. Now, like

1022
01:39:01,440 --> 01:39:06,920
you are a creation of your thoughts. You have no control of the external world, but you

1023
01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:13,920
do have control over how you think and perceive things and how you react. And I think that's

1024
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:18,440
something I try and make myself aware of. Obviously, I run through this checklist every

1025
01:39:18,440 --> 01:39:25,400
day and and I think it's a powerful thing. It's, you know, ultimately you are a creation

1026
01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:30,120
of how you think and how you think is how you're going to be projecting yourself into

1027
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:40,280
the world. And so the next one is, you know, give space. Like I talked about, like I work

1028
01:39:40,280 --> 01:39:45,280
on this one all a lot because I had a fairly strong meditative practice already, like giving

1029
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:51,480
space is what was able to get me to some of these conclusions. And it's really kind of

1030
01:39:51,480 --> 01:39:57,520
just this all good mentality. It's also this idea of like, especially, I don't know if

1031
01:39:57,520 --> 01:40:01,720
you have this problem, but I for sure have this problem. And a lot of people I think

1032
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:06,480
that I work with have this problem is like, we have this sense of duty that if there is

1033
01:40:06,480 --> 01:40:11,800
a slow moment or a downtime, we need to fill it with something because we feel guilty because

1034
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:17,400
we're not doing something. And this was, yeah, and this was something that has troubled me

1035
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:25,240
for such a long time. And man, it's fucking okay not to do shit sometimes. Take a fucking

1036
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:29,720
day off. Who cares? That's okay. Take a day off. Like as long as you're taking care of

1037
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,440
your basic needs and you want to chill on the couch and watch Netflix all day, that's

1038
01:40:33,440 --> 01:40:38,880
okay if the intention is correct. It's okay to shut the brain down and not be go, go,

1039
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:43,920
go, go, go. And it takes a lot of, it took me a long time to come to that realization.

1040
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:53,280
But you know, giving spaces to me is that giving myself the space to just kind of take

1041
01:40:53,280 --> 01:41:00,000
a deep breath and be like, you know what, it's all good. And so that's that. And then

1042
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:04,960
the next piece, and this one kind of floats around a little bit is, well, it's what we're

1043
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:10,880
doing now. It's shared perspective. I think in today's world with technology, technology's

1044
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:21,000
awesome, dude. It's so, so awesome. It is an incredible thing. Humans are meant to innovate.

1045
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:26,520
And I think a lot of the stuff that we've done technology wise is made life awesome.

1046
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:35,800
It's also put us in a place where if we don't want to use our legs, we don't have to. And

1047
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:40,920
so we don't communicate efficiently like we used to. And that's basically what shared

1048
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:47,000
perspective is that just called a fancy way of saying communication. But I think what

1049
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:53,320
we tend to do in this world is we don't talk about our perspectives very much. We're very

1050
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:58,600
opinion based, but we don't talk about how we have lived our lives, the lessons we've

1051
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:02,720
learned. And we don't share that perspective because I think shared perspective is how

1052
01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:07,720
we kind of is a way we can grow collectively. And like I talked about this, I talk about

1053
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:12,200
this all the time, but like a lot of people have their eye right up on the cue ball, right?

1054
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:16,440
Like, and you're not going to see much of that cue ball, except for whatever is right

1055
01:42:16,440 --> 01:42:21,320
in front of that little eyeball there. But some of us are got our eye pulled a foot back.

1056
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:26,360
Maybe we have 30 feet back and we can see more of that cue ball, but you're never going

1057
01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:30,320
to see the entire cue ball. You have to talk to somebody on the other side of that cue

1058
01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:35,320
ball to gain the perspective of that cue ball. And that convert that shared perspective is

1059
01:42:35,320 --> 01:42:41,360
going to give us the ability to travel around and learn more about each other, understand

1060
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:47,360
things about each other better. And, and just become better versions of ourselves. Like

1061
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:52,000
I'll say that a million times. So shared perspectives enough as the other thing, am I communicating

1062
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:58,240
correctly? Am I sharing my perspective with people? Am I, am I talking about opinions

1063
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:04,360
or am I talking about my personal truth? And then the last one is the, what I call the

1064
01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:11,400
power move and it's a, let it go. We have to understand, all of us have to understand

1065
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:20,200
that we're all going to fucking die at some point. And let it go is, is a reminder to

1066
01:43:20,200 --> 01:43:25,880
me that I have to look at everything in my life. Like it could be gone in an instant.

1067
01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:32,320
My wife, my kids, my job, my everything I have, it could literally be gone two minutes

1068
01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:40,000
from now. And all that does is it gets me to a place of immense appreciation for everything

1069
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:47,040
that I have and the experiences that I have in this, in this fucking beautiful life. And

1070
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:54,720
all of those needs, if I take care of all of those needs first, I can set better intentions

1071
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:59,680
about the things that I want because I just want to pursue those things because they're

1072
01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:07,840
enjoyable. It's not based on a desire to fill a void of happiness or joy or whatever. And

1073
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:13,200
it gets me closer to a spot where I can live in this present moment and recognize all the

1074
01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:18,840
cool shit that's going around me. And that's, that's kind of the outcome of, that's how

1075
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:24,280
I'm living my life right now. And that, that was an outcome of me having suicidal thoughts.

1076
01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:30,240
And I think if we're all patient enough with ourselves and willing to go to war with our

1077
01:44:30,240 --> 01:44:37,760
minds and, and confront those uncomfortable, super dark places of our beings that a lot

1078
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:39,760
of us can come to the same conclusion.

1079
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:45,960
Yeah. Well, firstly, thank you for sharing that. Secondly, that's an incredibly profound

1080
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:50,560
introspective seeing as that you're talking about November was not even four months ago.

1081
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:55,080
So you're down a hell of a journey. But a couple of things that you hit on, I think

1082
01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:59,640
that were very pertinent to me. One, again, other common denominator has really floated

1083
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:06,720
to the surface is staying busy. And it's an absolute warning sign, I think, for unaddressed

1084
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:12,080
trauma. Because if we, you know, what's the, what's the enemy? What's the, what's the polar

1085
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:17,520
opposite of being busy all the time? It's mindfulness is sitting, being silent. And

1086
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:22,560
when you're silent, when you're present, now it's holding a mirror up to what's really

1087
01:45:22,560 --> 01:45:28,120
going on in your head. So a lot of our men and women that, you know, find themselves

1088
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:32,760
doing second jobs, taking all the overtime they can, you know, busy, busy, busy, the

1089
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:36,240
kind of got to take a step back and go, am I doing this purely because I'm saving up

1090
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:41,600
for that amazing present? I want to get my four year old. Or am I doing it because I

1091
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:47,520
don't want to address what's actually going on in my mind? That's exactly it, dude. Yeah.

1092
01:45:47,520 --> 01:45:52,320
And then the other thing is, like you said, how we react to a situation. There was a guy,

1093
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:57,280
have you ever heard of Wayne Dyer? I don't recall. No. Yeah. A lot of people. It's funny.

1094
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:01,080
A lot of people haven't, but he was kind of in that imagine like a white Deepak Chopra

1095
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:05,680
is the best way of describing him. Sadly, he passed away from leukemia a few years ago

1096
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:12,320
before I started doing this, but just an incredibly intelligent, spiritual, kind, compassionate

1097
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:18,200
human being that had some, you know, I hate using that word, but self-help style tapes

1098
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:22,440
and things that were out there. But one of the things I forget the analogy, I'm probably

1099
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:26,780
going to butcher it a little bit, but he was like, imagine if you were an orange, no matter

1100
01:46:26,780 --> 01:46:32,520
what the pressure is from the outside, when you're squeezed, it's still orange juice is

1101
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:37,580
going to come out. So what his thing was is that you basically, the state that you're

1102
01:46:37,580 --> 01:46:46,280
in personally is going to be how you respond to stress from the outside. So if you're constantly

1103
01:46:46,280 --> 01:46:50,680
angry and pissed off, the barista taking too long with your latte is going to make you

1104
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:56,160
lose your shit. But if you're in a calm place, like you said, the distracted teen driver

1105
01:46:56,160 --> 01:47:01,480
that side swipes you, you're going to be calm enough to go, look, I'm not happy about this.

1106
01:47:01,480 --> 01:47:05,520
However, I get it. You're young, you're distracted. You need to learn from this, but you're not

1107
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:09,520
going to take their head off. So that's a very important point too, is getting to that

1108
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:15,320
point of, of, you know, inner peace and that gratitude piece is huge. I personally think

1109
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:20,080
the enemy of depression and anxiety is gratitude, but we're in an environment where we're told

1110
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:22,640
when we don't have enough and we're not good enough.

1111
01:47:22,640 --> 01:47:31,280
Yeah, no, I mean, dude, for sure. I think, yeah, I mean, well, that's, that's exactly

1112
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:35,280
it. Like, especially in this Western culture, I think too, you know, like we're, there's,

1113
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:39,160
there's, we're, every time you turn around, there's something telling you that, oh, wait,

1114
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:43,080
hey, you need this to be happy, right? That there's a, there's a magazine and there's

1115
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:49,240
a famous person, there's someone selling you something. There's constantly someone saying,

1116
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:54,920
like, you need, you need to base your life on, on this as a, as a way to be successful

1117
01:47:54,920 --> 01:48:00,960
or to feel joy because everybody else is doing it. And we, and we lose the sense of gratitude

1118
01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:06,960
of the shit that we currently have is actually pretty goddamn cool. Like I'm walking around

1119
01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:11,560
my house when this, when I made some of this realization and connecting these dots up and

1120
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:18,360
I'm like, man, I got a house. Like I live on two acres. It is beautifully sunny out

1121
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:23,440
here. My parents live right there. Like I have two awesome kids. Like it's, it's, I'm

1122
01:48:23,440 --> 01:48:29,640
like, dude, I have everything I need. I'm so grateful for all of this shit and, and

1123
01:48:29,640 --> 01:48:35,240
extremely lucky to have it. And it could all be gone in an instant. And it's actually gotten

1124
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:42,480
me to a point now where I feel like, um, like the minimalistic type of lifestyle is very

1125
01:48:42,480 --> 01:48:48,120
attractive to me or it's like stripping all the bullshit away and just understanding you

1126
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:54,640
really don't need that much to be super happy. And in fact, I could make a fairly decent

1127
01:48:54,640 --> 01:49:01,280
argument that if, as long as you have shelter food and, uh, you can stay warm somewhat and

1128
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:05,740
you have a heartbeat, like essentially if you're doing that, you basically have everything

1129
01:49:05,740 --> 01:49:10,740
you need to live and you can find everything else because happiness and joy comes from

1130
01:49:10,740 --> 01:49:13,840
inside of you. It doesn't come from materialistic things.

1131
01:49:13,840 --> 01:49:18,240
Absolutely. And I think that's the thing is if you have that mindset and it's funny, I

1132
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:22,240
think that was really shown to me in my very early twenties, I backpacked around the world.

1133
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:25,920
So I literally had a backpack and a guitar. That was it. And I'm not even a good guitarist.

1134
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:32,520
I don't know why I bother taking it. Regardless, it looked cool. Yeah, for sure. No, but joking

1135
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:39,040
apart, you know, now when, when you're scaled down to nothing, you're, I would say less

1136
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:44,720
likely to let your health go to shit too, because you understand the value of your ability

1137
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:49,960
to provide for your family, your ability to protect your family, your ability to physically,

1138
01:49:49,960 --> 01:49:54,880
you know, go and get food, go and get water, build shelter, whatever it is. So the more

1139
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:59,960
superfluous stuff we surround ourselves, the further away we find ourselves from what truly

1140
01:49:59,960 --> 01:50:04,040
matters, which is living long enough to see our kids get older.

1141
01:50:04,040 --> 01:50:09,120
Yeah, exactly. I think you're right, man. If you, if you can boil it down to the things

1142
01:50:09,120 --> 01:50:13,760
that actually matter, like all of a sudden polishing your, your brand new truck doesn't

1143
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:19,040
become an actual need anymore. You take care of the things that are most important first.

1144
01:50:19,040 --> 01:50:24,480
And that's really what my, my list is all about. It's all about just, okay, in the morning

1145
01:50:24,480 --> 01:50:31,560
time I wake up, I eat a little bit of food. I go right into the gym and I, I get my workout

1146
01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:37,480
in as soon as my workouts done. I sit down and I meditate and it's because I slept already.

1147
01:50:37,480 --> 01:50:42,840
I ate some food. I gave myself the nutrition and I got my movement in like right off the

1148
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:47,560
bat. I'm winning like within the first three hours of the day. And now I go through the

1149
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:53,040
mental checklist and my observing identify, you know, accepting all these things. And

1150
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:56,820
once I do that, I can see where I'm stuck a little bit and be like, okay, cool. Let's

1151
01:50:56,820 --> 01:51:01,480
open that up a little bit more, maybe journal about it for a minute. And then I, man, the

1152
01:51:01,480 --> 01:51:08,160
day is awesome. After that you have the way you communicate the, the, the things you find

1153
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:12,960
important throughout the day. And really it comes down to the intention setting. Like

1154
01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:18,120
I'm not making any choices based on desire anymore. At this point, I'm making choices

1155
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:22,120
based on the fact that I want it because it, I want to buy some ice cream because I just

1156
01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:26,720
feel like having ice cream. It's going to taste good. It's a choice. It's not, I'm not

1157
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:33,360
filling a void. And so anyways, I could talk about just that stuff, like pretty much for

1158
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:35,360
another three hours, probably.

1159
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:41,640
No, that's brilliant. Well, I want to transition then so that we get another topic as well.

1160
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:45,440
If you've got time because absolutely I got all the time in the world, man. Beautiful.

1161
01:51:45,440 --> 01:51:48,040
I think this is a, this is going to be a great conversation. We've got a little bit more

1162
01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:53,920
to unwrap, but another area. And again, I am from the outside looking in the same way

1163
01:51:53,920 --> 01:51:58,120
as when I discuss law enforcement, some of these other areas, I'm not a wildland firefighter.

1164
01:51:58,120 --> 01:52:05,160
I've had a handful of wildland fires, but that being said, I had Jason Ramos on the

1165
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:09,640
show. I've had a Brooke Carrasco, which I wanted to touch on her in a minute. I've had

1166
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:14,440
several wildland firefighters and especially Jason, when he's so analytical and so kind

1167
01:52:14,440 --> 01:52:19,760
of science minded, we find ourselves where we are now sometimes because that's just kind

1168
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:25,240
of how the metamorphosis of our particular profession has arrived at. This is where we

1169
01:52:25,240 --> 01:52:30,720
are. But on occasion, you can take a step back and go, I know you've arrived here, but

1170
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:35,560
what if we went back and did things differently? Because it doesn't seem like this is the most

1171
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:39,440
intelligent way of doing said thing.

1172
01:52:39,440 --> 01:52:44,400
So Jason talks about the fire shelters and them actually not being able to do what a

1173
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:52,640
lot of us think they're able to do. And his analysis was maybe that we shouldn't be fighting

1174
01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:56,960
some of these fires, that we should be much more aggressive on back burning. So if you

1175
01:52:56,960 --> 01:53:02,280
were king for a day in the wildland fire service, including where you allow people to build

1176
01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:07,760
houses, how would we reverse engineer the wildland issue that we have at the moment

1177
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:12,720
so we're not losing cities like Paradise, so we're not losing hotshots like the Prescott

1178
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:13,720
19?

1179
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:25,760
That is an interesting way to ask that question. Man, this question in and of itself, it's

1180
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:38,280
got so much political push and different opinions, but as a superintendent.

1181
01:53:38,280 --> 01:53:44,080
What about from a pure altruistic compassion and kindness element? So fuck the politics.

1182
01:53:44,080 --> 01:53:48,760
As a human being to make it safest for our firefighters and safest for our community,

1183
01:53:48,760 --> 01:53:53,520
even if that means enforcing that you're not allowed to build in area X, what would be

1184
01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:57,360
the safest way for us to do it?

1185
01:53:57,360 --> 01:54:04,140
Well I think part of it is we need to reduce the amount of people building into the woods.

1186
01:54:04,140 --> 01:54:10,480
That's one piece of the pie. The other piece of the pie here is we do have a forest management

1187
01:54:10,480 --> 01:54:17,520
issue. We're not able to get to the amount of fuels treatment as we have been able to

1188
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:27,880
in the past. And I know that might rub some people wrong, but that's just what it is.

1189
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:33,760
Because our fires are going longer, they're more intense, and we call it the fire year

1190
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:38,720
now. We haven't made an adjustment and there's no time to do fuels reduction work. So our

1191
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:44,320
forests are just overgrowing. They just are. They're getting choked out and because the

1192
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:50,640
people are up in there, now it's really difficult to get into those areas and do fuels reduction

1193
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:57,360
work. Those to me would be the first, those to me would be the two main ones. We need

1194
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:07,200
to maybe look at how people are expanding into the woods and provide them like legit

1195
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:12,640
education so that they can maybe do some of the work on their own around their areas.

1196
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:22,080
And then we need to have probably a workforce that is strictly for fuels management and

1197
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:29,200
separate fire from fuels. Our identity as an agency has changed and we haven't changed

1198
01:55:29,200 --> 01:55:31,000
with the times.

1199
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:35,800
Brilliant. I think that's something that I see from the outside. I'll give you a perfect

1200
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:42,400
example where I used to work was the fire department for a famous theme park here in

1201
01:55:42,400 --> 01:55:48,680
Florida and they wouldn't allow any back burning and they'd even have them out fighting

1202
01:55:48,680 --> 01:55:54,040
fire for days and days and days because they didn't even want smoke wafting into the theme

1203
01:55:54,040 --> 01:56:00,760
park. The reality is, and some of my wildland friends here told me this as well, is that

1204
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:05,480
they needed a back burn, they needed a checker, they needed to put those aligns and it may

1205
01:56:05,480 --> 01:56:10,320
not be as aesthetically pleasing and it might put some smoke in your theme park for a bit,

1206
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:13,400
but it's going to be so much safer for the men and women and it's going to reduce the

1207
01:56:13,400 --> 01:56:16,600
amount of fires that you ultimately get next to that theme park.

1208
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:21,560
Yeah, I mean that's a big education piece and something we run into all the time every

1209
01:56:21,560 --> 01:56:26,760
time we do a prescribed fire because we're near South Lake Tahoe or the Sacramento Valley

1210
01:56:26,760 --> 01:56:31,160
and so our smoke can either go down into Sacramento Valley and people get pissed or it can go

1211
01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:38,840
down into South Lake Tahoe and people get pissed. So a lot of it's education and so

1212
01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:42,840
it's doubling down on the education piece. I mean it's going to be really hard to keep

1213
01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:46,840
people from moving into the woods. I mean I love the woods, I love living in the woods

1214
01:56:46,840 --> 01:56:52,880
so I understand why, but we need to do a better job of educating folks and also providing

1215
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:59,240
them the ability to maybe do some of the work around their house more freely. And then like

1216
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:07,120
I said, we have a fire year. Our firefighters, well first off, I don't know how far I'm going

1217
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:12,520
to get into this, but I'll do it. My agency doesn't consider us firefighters. We're Forestry

1218
01:57:12,520 --> 01:57:22,240
technicians and it's an idea that had started a long, long, long time ago. And as our environment

1219
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:28,400
has changed, we primarily fight fire now instead of doing fuels management work and we need

1220
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:33,240
to get back to looking at fuels management but also have a fire agency that's ready to

1221
01:57:33,240 --> 01:57:37,040
kick ass on some of these epic wildland fires because I don't think that's going to slow

1222
01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:41,520
down anytime soon if we stay doing the same thing we're doing.

1223
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:47,720
Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I mean, again, it's just an opportunity for two fellow firefighters

1224
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,740
to have a discussion of how can we do it better? Because like you said, when politics gets

1225
01:57:51,740 --> 01:57:56,480
into it, when this taxpayer doesn't want smoke wafting in from prescribed burn, this other

1226
01:57:56,480 --> 01:58:01,920
one wants to keep all their eucalyptus trees around their property and it ends up becoming

1227
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:05,760
extremely dangerous for the homeowner, extremely dangerous for the responding firefighters.

1228
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:11,440
So whether it's comfortable or not, these discussions have to be had because one firefighter

1229
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:17,040
lost in a wildland fire is tragic. One family lost in a wildland fire is tragic. So this

1230
01:58:17,040 --> 01:58:27,240
needs to keep being discussed in a courageous, transparent way so that we circumnavigate

1231
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:31,120
politics and we get to the root of the issue so we can minimize the threat to our men and

1232
01:58:31,120 --> 01:58:33,920
women that are fighting fires and the residents.

1233
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:38,680
Yeah. I mean, it's all about sharing perspective too. I'm willing to share my perspective.

1234
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:43,000
I think you're a hundred percent right.

1235
01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:48,880
Now, what about the actual frequency and size of the fires? I've heard several people in

1236
01:58:48,880 --> 01:58:55,720
the wildland community with you guys actually seeing it firsthand that have suggested that

1237
01:58:55,720 --> 01:58:59,960
maybe there is a kind of change in the climate that's contributing to more, whether it's

1238
01:58:59,960 --> 01:59:05,280
more debris now because they're not getting as much rain, whatever it is. Over your 20

1239
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:10,360
years, have you seen an increase in growth and severity in these fires?

1240
01:59:10,360 --> 01:59:17,800
Yeah, a big fire. The first five years of my career was like 20,000 acres in California.

1241
01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:23,960
And last year I was on a fire that was a million. So I mean, that's unprecedented stuff and

1242
01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:30,240
every year seems to be just a progression in the wrong direction as far as size and

1243
01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:38,680
intensity. We didn't have enough people last year to fight the fires just in California.

1244
01:59:38,680 --> 01:59:45,680
Without a doubt, fires are getting bigger. And like I said, it could be, it is most definitely

1245
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:51,600
a host of things that are contributing to that. Like we talked about a few of them,

1246
01:59:51,600 --> 02:00:03,040
people getting closer into the rural areas, suboptimal management of our forest lands.

1247
02:00:03,040 --> 02:00:09,640
And you could probably throw climate change in there. We had beetles roll through California

1248
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:14,960
and decimate like thousands and thousands of acres of trees. And now we just have basically

1249
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:23,480
these 200 feet trees that are, it's like tall grass, just trees. So, I mean, there's a bunch

1250
02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:30,400
of different factors, but the fire environment is 100% getting, is getting more aggressive

1251
02:00:30,400 --> 02:00:32,640
and a lot harder to manage.

1252
02:00:32,640 --> 02:00:38,240
Yeah. And then conversely, our resources, well not conversely, it's the wrong choice.

1253
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:43,520
I just loaded the question in. Are resources matching the demand or are you having to fight

1254
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:46,160
those with the same or even less resources?

1255
02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:49,760
Less. We are not matching the demand straight up.

1256
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:52,440
Okay. So I could have loaded it in.

1257
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:58,860
That's okay. We're asked, I mean, yeah, we don't have the right amount of air support.

1258
02:00:58,860 --> 02:01:03,920
We don't have the right amount of people. One of the things we're running into now,

1259
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:09,280
and it's not to talk shit about any other resource, but we are relying more and more

1260
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:15,240
on contract contractor type of resources. And so like we, we, and so we get, you're

1261
02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:20,480
getting into these hairy situations with lots and lots of intense fire out there and you

1262
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:27,760
don't have the people like, like folks from my agency or other like agencies there that

1263
02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:35,520
have the specialty knowledge to manage these fires correctly. And so you're doing a lot

1264
02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:41,200
more or trying to do a lot more with very, very little. And it's very unsuccessful in

1265
02:01:41,200 --> 02:01:46,880
the way that works. Last year, for example, we were on a fire, that million acre fire

1266
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:55,080
is telling about the August complex and there was one hotshot crew on a division that was

1267
02:01:55,080 --> 02:02:00,440
almost 25 miles long. And usually a division would be like three, maybe five miles long.

1268
02:02:00,440 --> 02:02:05,360
And sometimes you get like five hotshot crews in there, depending on how, depending on the

1269
02:02:05,360 --> 02:02:10,480
work, but one to two hotshot crews is not an abnormal thing. And now you're in a position

1270
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:17,840
where you have a 25 mile acre chunk of ground on this division and one hotshot crew and

1271
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:22,360
the rest are all contracted employees that have no idea what they've gotten themselves

1272
02:02:22,360 --> 02:02:26,840
into. And so like I've told you, like, it's about keeping people safe at that point. Like

1273
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:33,320
you can't do a whole lot. You're trying to get down and communicate communities and telling

1274
02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:38,640
like, Hey, it's time to evacuate or you're trying to keep people safe. Like that's really

1275
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:44,780
one of the biggest parts about my job is making sure my crew is safe. And it's frustrating

1276
02:02:44,780 --> 02:02:51,920
when you can't, you know, it's frustrating when you can't do what you know to be right

1277
02:02:51,920 --> 02:02:58,160
because you lack the people or lack the resources. But I mean, this is where we're at. It's

1278
02:02:58,160 --> 02:03:03,880
super unfortunate. And yeah, I don't really know where to go from there, honestly.

1279
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:07,920
Yeah. Well with, you know, with us both having a human performance background and a lot of

1280
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:13,400
the stuff that we've unpacked today when it comes to, you know, the hours of sleep deprivation,

1281
02:03:13,400 --> 02:03:20,760
what worries me too is you have men and women doing more with less the percentage chance

1282
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:24,160
of someone getting hurt or killed continues to rise.

1283
02:03:24,160 --> 02:03:31,440
Yeah, no, that's a hundred percent man. Like, I mean, there's, there's days where because

1284
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:37,520
we lacked resources, we were pulling 48 hour shifts straight with no sleep because fire

1285
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:46,320
was moving into communities and there's nobody there to notify folks. You know, it's like,

1286
02:03:46,320 --> 02:03:51,080
what the hell do you do then? Like you have this like integrity issue, like this moral

1287
02:03:51,080 --> 02:03:57,640
like feeling like, Oh, well, my guys are incredibly tired. They've been working all day. I'm incredibly

1288
02:03:57,640 --> 02:04:02,000
tired. We're trying to make these powerful decisions that affect people's lives. I can't

1289
02:04:02,000 --> 02:04:06,720
just bail like, but at the end there, but the other side of the sword there, you're

1290
02:04:06,720 --> 02:04:12,600
like, well, if I do this for too much longer, one of my dues, it's going to get hurt. Probably

1291
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:17,960
that that risk of that potential risk is just climbing higher and higher and higher. And

1292
02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:23,760
we never have gotten any support or we had always, we had great support from incident

1293
02:04:23,760 --> 02:04:31,120
management teams this last year and divisions and things like this. And they let us, you

1294
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:35,480
know, manage our crews fatigue pretty good. And that's actually one of the positive things

1295
02:04:35,480 --> 02:04:39,840
that came out of this, the utilization of whoop is it's been able to get us to ask for

1296
02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:45,360
more days off in between fires and, and also on assignments. And so, but it's you're a

1297
02:04:45,360 --> 02:04:51,040
hundred percent right. The risk is not going away and it's probably increasing the chances

1298
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:55,280
of people getting, people getting hurt to some in some regard.

1299
02:04:55,280 --> 02:05:01,760
Yeah. Well, I think the element that kept you guys working is something that I think

1300
02:05:01,760 --> 02:05:09,000
is, is, uh, it's a kind of not a double edged sword. That's the wrong word. Um, it's, it's

1301
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:15,320
something that works against ourselves because you ask any, you know, police officer, firefighter,

1302
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:18,800
if they're put in a situation, will you go and facilitate that rescue? We're all going

1303
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:24,160
to say, yes, we have a volunteer fire service in the U S that does just that for free. Some

1304
02:05:24,160 --> 02:05:30,240
out in the boonies where I, I understand the need for a volunteer, many of which are now

1305
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:34,520
in very suburban areas where they shouldn't be volunteer. It should be paid. And we just

1306
02:05:34,520 --> 02:05:40,620
lost a Jared Lloyd from spring Valley fire this last week in a nursing home, you know,

1307
02:05:40,620 --> 02:05:46,120
so he was making entry as a, as a, as a complete volunteer. But the, the negative side of that

1308
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:54,120
is we love this job. We want to help people, but because of that, sadly there's administrations

1309
02:05:54,120 --> 02:05:58,120
that know that it's okay because they're going to do it anyway. So we don't need to get more

1310
02:05:58,120 --> 02:06:01,600
stuff. They'll, you know, we'll just, we'll just force them on overtime or like, you know,

1311
02:06:01,600 --> 02:06:06,160
you were doing, we'll just get them to work two days straight. And again, it's not malice,

1312
02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:12,600
but our burning desire, our why sometimes works against us getting the environment that

1313
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:15,720
we need to work safely because they know come hell or high water, we're going to make it

1314
02:06:15,720 --> 02:06:16,720
happen.

1315
02:06:16,720 --> 02:06:21,400
Oh yeah, man. For sure. I mean, I think Jordan Peterson actually talks about this where it's

1316
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:26,440
like, you know, you're standing, you're having a conversation with somebody face to face

1317
02:06:26,440 --> 02:06:33,160
and one person just makes a very slow one inch step towards you just enough to get you

1318
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:37,640
to step, take a step back, but you continue the conversation and it just repeats this

1319
02:06:37,640 --> 02:06:41,760
process over and over and over again until you find yourself in a corner and you're like

1320
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:45,560
looking around, you're like, how the hell did I get here? And I think that's a lot of

1321
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:50,560
what's going on, at least within my agency is we've been asked to do these things over

1322
02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:53,520
and over and over again. And we just step up to the plate every time. Like, Hey, we're

1323
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:56,120
going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to do this because we feel like

1324
02:06:56,120 --> 02:07:01,920
we can, but now we're in a corner and we're like, how the hell do we get out of here?

1325
02:07:01,920 --> 02:07:08,240
Like this isn't sustainable. Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that's just it. It needs everyone

1326
02:07:08,240 --> 02:07:13,520
else in the room to be like, all right, step the fuck back. We need to do this. But like

1327
02:07:13,520 --> 02:07:18,680
you said, we need to unify the voices because we always make it work. That's what firefighters

1328
02:07:18,680 --> 02:07:23,860
do. That's what police officers do. So, you know, but we have to be our own advocates

1329
02:07:23,860 --> 02:07:29,000
too and have that same passion for helping others, for creating an environment for us

1330
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:34,160
to be better at helping others and, you know, have a full career without dying along the

1331
02:07:34,160 --> 02:07:38,680
way. Yeah, that's definitely right. Well, then transitioning to one other area before

1332
02:07:38,680 --> 02:07:46,560
we get to your David Goggins challenge. Brooke actually came through the the corrections

1333
02:07:46,560 --> 02:07:52,840
crew. She was the prison crew for a wildland firefighter. So another, yeah. So we're talking

1334
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:57,720
about mentorship. Here's a young lady was hanging out with the wrong crowd, was, was

1335
02:07:57,720 --> 02:08:01,800
arrested and basically, you know, in prison because she happened to be in the same crew

1336
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:07,940
as same car or someone that had a weapon that had a history, you know, guilty by association.

1337
02:08:07,940 --> 02:08:13,280
She through that had the mentorship in the prison system of finding herself on the crew.

1338
02:08:13,280 --> 02:08:17,340
And then actually ended up working for Cal Fire, which I thought was an incredible program.

1339
02:08:17,340 --> 02:08:22,420
So just just tell me of your experiences of working with those kind of crews on the mountain

1340
02:08:22,420 --> 02:08:28,600
and your philosophy on, you know, on being able to transition from from the prison setting

1341
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:34,880
to full time in that capacity. Well, shoot, working with those dudes on the fire line

1342
02:08:34,880 --> 02:08:38,980
is legit. I mean, they're not hotshot crews, but they're a bunch of hardworking sons of

1343
02:08:38,980 --> 02:08:45,680
bitches that like to get after it. And we've utilized them in many ways to help assist

1344
02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:51,280
on a very various things. They also hit us up all the time. We see them on fire and like,

1345
02:08:51,280 --> 02:08:55,680
I'm about to parole here in the next couple of weeks or year or whatever, like, how can

1346
02:08:55,680 --> 02:09:02,100
I come work for you? And honestly, I think that is a is a I don't I don't want to say

1347
02:09:02,100 --> 02:09:07,760
undertapped resource, but it could be tapped into more for sure. And I have two people

1348
02:09:07,760 --> 02:09:15,720
on my crew right now that I supervise that are ex inmates. And something that's really

1349
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:23,280
great about that is we I tell myself because we have to have, you know, working with inmates

1350
02:09:23,280 --> 02:09:27,920
training as part of our critical refresher when we bring our folks on. And something

1351
02:09:27,920 --> 02:09:32,880
I we try and say to our folks is like, Hey, a lot of these a lot of these people are in

1352
02:09:32,880 --> 02:09:37,980
here because a lot of these people that are in here are are you guys, you know, they just

1353
02:09:37,980 --> 02:09:43,080
got caught. So like, don't don't put yourself up on this pedestal like you're higher or

1354
02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:48,200
or whatever than a lot of these folks in here. And so that's one thing. And the other thing

1355
02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:54,000
too is like these guys when they come work for me or have worked for me, their life knowledge

1356
02:09:54,000 --> 02:10:01,160
and perspective on things is pretty fascinating. They understand the opportunity that's in

1357
02:10:01,160 --> 02:10:08,400
front of them and having an opportunity fighting fire, whether it's for Cal Fire for us. And

1358
02:10:08,400 --> 02:10:16,280
they are most of the time, like pretty badass individuals. And all they needed was an opportunity

1359
02:10:16,280 --> 02:10:21,720
and and someone to take a chance on them. And I am all about that kind of stuff. Because

1360
02:10:21,720 --> 02:10:25,060
I mean, like I said, I've gone through my career working with a handful of these folks

1361
02:10:25,060 --> 02:10:32,000
and two of the people on my crew right now. I hope someday run this crew when I leave

1362
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:34,080
and they're both ex inmates.

1363
02:10:34,080 --> 02:10:38,480
That's just I mean, it's so good to hear. And when Brooke was telling me the story,

1364
02:10:38,480 --> 02:10:44,440
I'm like, well, there we go. There's the kind of rehabilitation, you know, mentorship prison

1365
02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:49,800
role that took someone that could have gone down even worse path, worse path. Oh, my God,

1366
02:10:49,800 --> 02:10:54,700
I can't even talk now. Worst. Oh, my God. I'm going to stroke a thing over here. Even

1367
02:10:54,700 --> 02:10:59,880
worse path. There we go. That's a tongue twister. You know, but but instead she went through

1368
02:10:59,880 --> 02:11:06,640
the prison system and actually was was raised up. But then her her arrest record wasn't

1369
02:11:06,640 --> 02:11:11,200
held against her. Cal fire. We're like, no, that's fine. You can come for us now. And

1370
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:16,880
those I think that should be a model for for many, many programs in our prisons. I think,

1371
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:21,600
I mean, we know that locking someone in a box does not make them a better member of

1372
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:25,720
society. We've proven that over hundreds of years. But some of these programs, whether

1373
02:11:25,720 --> 02:11:30,160
the ones they have in Norway or whether it's the you know, the the prison handcrew system

1374
02:11:30,160 --> 02:11:34,720
here that you have in California, I think it's incredible. And like you said, now you

1375
02:11:34,720 --> 02:11:38,840
would have these men and I couldn't agree with you anymore. Most of us listening, if

1376
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:43,360
we've been caught, would have a record by now, myself included. So, you know, having

1377
02:11:43,360 --> 02:11:49,120
that ability to turn a negative into a positive is huge. So thank you for telling me your

1378
02:11:49,120 --> 02:11:52,040
perspective because that story needs to be heard. I don't think a lot of people understand

1379
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:57,840
that. Yeah, and really do, man. And these guys are some of my best friends, man. I mean,

1380
02:11:57,840 --> 02:12:02,160
and I don't mean to like say like, oh, you know, like, anyways, they sit in the truck

1381
02:12:02,160 --> 02:12:05,680
with me all the time. We're driving miles and miles and miles all time to fires. And

1382
02:12:05,680 --> 02:12:10,640
we talk about life. Like we talk about the shit, the crazy shit. And they open up to

1383
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:14,000
me and they tell me there's stuff that they've done. And I open up to them and we share our

1384
02:12:14,000 --> 02:12:20,720
perspectives. Right. And and I can't tell you how many times these people have made

1385
02:12:20,720 --> 02:12:27,440
me think about really cool shit because they understand like how beautiful the things in

1386
02:12:27,440 --> 02:12:31,480
front of them are because someone took a chance on them or someone gave them an opportunity

1387
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:37,800
and how how much gratitude they have for stuff. And they're the first people when things get

1388
02:12:37,800 --> 02:12:41,880
rough and people get all pissy and like whatever towards the end of the season, whenever he's

1389
02:12:41,880 --> 02:12:47,040
just dog shit tired, they're the happiest people on the crew hands down. And they can

1390
02:12:47,040 --> 02:12:52,760
change they can change the whole outlook of a day just based on their attitude. And I'm

1391
02:12:52,760 --> 02:12:58,920
super I like I said, I'm anybody out there, like I talk to these people all the time,

1392
02:12:58,920 --> 02:13:02,680
like you give me a call if you're interested in a job, if I can't hire you, like I'll try

1393
02:13:02,680 --> 02:13:09,720
and set you up in the right direction because we all have skills. And as a mentor talking

1394
02:13:09,720 --> 02:13:15,240
to these people, like I think you guys, we all need to understand how impactful we can

1395
02:13:15,240 --> 02:13:20,800
we can be. We think that we don't have that much impact on people's lives. But sometimes

1396
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:24,960
all you got to do is listen to these folks and all you got to do is show them some kindness

1397
02:13:24,960 --> 02:13:29,000
in a way to get out of the world that got them in trouble in the first place. And their

1398
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,880
lives get turned around. And I think that's a super powerful thing.

1399
02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:37,000
I couldn't agree more. That's that's so good to hear. Well, speaking of kindness and doing

1400
02:13:37,000 --> 02:13:42,320
something good. Tell me how you came across the four by four by 48 challenge that David

1401
02:13:42,320 --> 02:13:45,920
Dagens threw out there and tell me about the fundraising that you did.

1402
02:13:45,920 --> 02:13:51,480
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for asking. Well, I've always been I was I used to be an all

1403
02:13:51,480 --> 02:13:57,400
turn endurance athlete like back in the early 2000s and mid 2000s. So I was I've always

1404
02:13:57,400 --> 02:14:02,760
been interested in long distance kind of athletics in that in that kind of time. And so but I

1405
02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:06,880
haven't done it in a while. And so my brother legitimately, who used to be on a hot shot

1406
02:14:06,880 --> 02:14:11,720
crew with me and then he moved over to the hot shot crew at work on now and then I followed

1407
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:17,080
him. Anyways, he's a Redwood City firefighter structure guy. He texts me and he goes, Hey,

1408
02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:22,800
do you want to run 48 miles with me on whatever date? And I said, I was thinking in my head,

1409
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:26,080
I was like, this son of a bitch is talking about the Goggins thing. I was like, God damn

1410
02:14:26,080 --> 02:14:34,280
it. And I was like, I was like, you know what? Hell, yeah. So I texted him back. Yes. And

1411
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:41,700
away we went. And so we just picked we picked two charities we wanted to work for. I obviously

1412
02:14:41,700 --> 02:14:46,920
I picked the wildland firefighter foundation, because they do a lot of amazing stuff for

1413
02:14:46,920 --> 02:14:53,720
my community that I am a part of as far as like people getting injured, mental health

1414
02:14:53,720 --> 02:15:01,320
problems, the full gambit, you need something, they are just about a no questions asked organization

1415
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:06,120
and they will help you and it's a pretty amazing things the amount of stories they had. And

1416
02:15:06,120 --> 02:15:13,800
then my brother picked the firefighters burn Institute, which is based out of Sacramento.

1417
02:15:13,800 --> 02:15:18,360
And they do a lot of stuff around education and they don't just help firefighters, but

1418
02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:25,080
they also help kids and and things like this. So I thought that was super cool. You know,

1419
02:15:25,080 --> 02:15:29,640
like we do fundraisers all the time within our within my agency, you know, you sign up

1420
02:15:29,640 --> 02:15:33,400
for a race and you, you know, you give them 20 bucks or 50 bucks, whatever the entry fee

1421
02:15:33,400 --> 02:15:36,960
is and you know, it goes to the wildland firefighter foundation or whatever a foundation you're

1422
02:15:36,960 --> 02:15:45,920
working for there. But I thought it was really, really powerful to two guys raised $5,000

1423
02:15:45,920 --> 02:15:51,880
for two different charities. And it was really just two guys running 48 miles and posting

1424
02:15:51,880 --> 02:15:56,480
some shit on Instagram. I mean, I thought that was I thought that was legit. And obviously

1425
02:15:56,480 --> 02:16:01,640
this is all like a byproduct of David Goggins and a byproduct of us doing it and then a

1426
02:16:01,640 --> 02:16:06,360
byproduct of us committing to this thing. And then the thousands of people that donated

1427
02:16:06,360 --> 02:16:11,120
money like that. It's just like, I don't know, Goggins been posting things all about this

1428
02:16:11,120 --> 02:16:18,320
and like how powerful that that whole experience was. And I agree. The whole time I was running,

1429
02:16:18,320 --> 02:16:23,600
we were doing this thing. Like I was just had all these sobering feelings of gratitude

1430
02:16:23,600 --> 02:16:28,520
and like it was unlike any race I've ever ran.

1431
02:16:28,520 --> 02:16:33,600
Yeah, it was amazing to see. I think he he've raised 200 grand and was going to split it

1432
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:38,560
five ways, but he said he got so many heartfelt messages from all these different charities

1433
02:16:38,560 --> 02:16:43,720
and Operation During Warrior was one of them that I said that helped with the gala the

1434
02:16:43,720 --> 02:16:50,400
other day. But yeah, and it was it was four miles every four hours for 48, wasn't it?

1435
02:16:50,400 --> 02:16:55,480
So you were having to do it through the night for two nights in a row.

1436
02:16:55,480 --> 02:17:00,040
Yeah, so it started. Yeah, thank you. I didn't even talk about what that was. Yeah, four

1437
02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:08,040
miles every four hours, 48 hours. It started at eight o'clock p.m. on Friday and went to

1438
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:14,720
I think what was it four o'clock p.m. on Sunday, if I've got that right. And so yeah, you just

1439
02:17:14,720 --> 02:17:19,240
woke up every it was I mean, a lot of people keep asking me like, Oh, how how'd it go?

1440
02:17:19,240 --> 02:17:25,360
How'd it feel? And like, you know, yes, it was difficult. There's things about that were

1441
02:17:25,360 --> 02:17:34,200
hard, for sure. But I never was in a spot personally, where I was. I always had something

1442
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:41,320
to compare it to that I did that was harder. So I never was like, OK, like I, I might have

1443
02:17:41,320 --> 02:17:45,080
to hang it up or this is the hardest thing in my life that never really crossed my mind.

1444
02:17:45,080 --> 02:17:49,480
And I don't know if that's because I've done a bunch of ultras before. And I've I've ran

1445
02:17:49,480 --> 02:17:56,280
50 straight miles and many times. And the job that I do is just endurance, knock your

1446
02:17:56,280 --> 02:18:02,280
dick in the dirt type of work and staying up for straight 48 hours. I've done numerous

1447
02:18:02,280 --> 02:18:07,520
times. So like, there wasn't necessarily a time where I was like, this is the hardest

1448
02:18:07,520 --> 02:18:13,000
thing I've ever done, which was which was good because I was able to reflect on all

1449
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:18,640
the hard stuff that I did do and apply it in real time. And it was that's so that was

1450
02:18:18,640 --> 02:18:24,040
cool. But, yeah, we stayed at my brother's house and every every four hours, we jump

1451
02:18:24,040 --> 02:18:32,960
up and run. And I would try and get my I think besides two of the laps, I had two of the

1452
02:18:32,960 --> 02:18:36,760
laps I did in like 50 minutes because me and my brother were filming a bunch of stuff and

1453
02:18:36,760 --> 02:18:43,320
trying to get the good word out. But at one point, after we those first two laps, I was

1454
02:18:43,320 --> 02:18:47,440
like, God, this isn't sustainable. I'm not going to do these four miles in 50 minutes

1455
02:18:47,440 --> 02:18:54,840
is going to take me forever. And so I would try and run them four miles as fast as I could.

1456
02:18:54,840 --> 02:19:00,600
And so I got most of them done somewhere between 34 and 36 minutes. And then I would eat a

1457
02:19:00,600 --> 02:19:05,640
little snack rest to the top of the hour. And then just my knowledge of like sleep cycles

1458
02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:10,880
and things like this, I would try and at that during the evening hours, I would try and

1459
02:19:10,880 --> 02:19:16,360
sleep for about an hour in 20 minutes or so I'd set an alarm for an hour 20 minutes during

1460
02:19:16,360 --> 02:19:22,440
the night hours. And I would wake myself up so that I didn't get too far or I wouldn't

1461
02:19:22,440 --> 02:19:30,720
get into like deep REM sleep. And then I would stretch, pound some water. And that gave me

1462
02:19:30,720 --> 02:19:36,720
about an hour ish 45 minutes or so to kind of get warmed up because the tightness and

1463
02:19:36,720 --> 02:19:40,680
the soreness was the stuff that that was getting me. So it was more about trying to get loose

1464
02:19:40,680 --> 02:19:41,680
before the next lap.

1465
02:19:41,680 --> 02:19:47,640
Now with you being a hotshot for 20 years, what do you when you look back now, what were

1466
02:19:47,640 --> 02:19:52,320
some of the tools that you use that allowed you to be physically resilient and keep doing

1467
02:19:52,320 --> 02:19:54,720
this profession?

1468
02:19:54,720 --> 02:20:05,240
I would say looking at the faces around you and trying not to show weakness. You know,

1469
02:20:05,240 --> 02:20:09,600
I don't know, I think it was like maybe the macho attitude or my ego or whatever, you

1470
02:20:09,600 --> 02:20:14,160
know, I can't when you when you talk when you're the person that's always talking about

1471
02:20:14,160 --> 02:20:18,360
physical fitness and nutrition and how to diet and like you're the strongest one of

1472
02:20:18,360 --> 02:20:23,080
the stronger person on the crew and you become this person. And so when you show weakness,

1473
02:20:23,080 --> 02:20:27,920
you lose a little bit of credibility. So I was you know, that kind of that kind of like

1474
02:20:27,920 --> 02:20:34,400
extra extrinsic motivation would fuel me in the moments of like hard line construction

1475
02:20:34,400 --> 02:20:38,680
or whatever, like, hey, like, all right, I can keep going. Look at them. They're all,

1476
02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:42,200
you know, they're all falling apart, but I'm going and that I would use that as like fuel

1477
02:20:42,200 --> 02:20:49,960
to keep moving. But that was that was pretty much, you know, as a young fireman, you know,

1478
02:20:49,960 --> 02:20:57,240
that was it. And I think nowadays, when I when I'm talking about like, physically challenging

1479
02:20:57,240 --> 02:21:03,480
stuff, it's, it's not so much to make someone else look bad anymore, or make myself look

1480
02:21:03,480 --> 02:21:09,240
better than anybody else. It's just, I know that if things are uncomfortable, and even

1481
02:21:09,240 --> 02:21:14,520
if they're really uncomfortable, I'm about to make a breakthrough on who I am as a person,

1482
02:21:14,520 --> 02:21:20,440
I'm gonna learn something. And I've been I, I embrace those really, really difficult physical

1483
02:21:20,440 --> 02:21:24,360
challenges. And I actually think it's important that we all put ourselves in those positions

1484
02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:25,880
at from time to time.

1485
02:21:25,880 --> 02:21:29,360
Absolutely. What about mobility? Is there anything that's the biggest thing, I think,

1486
02:21:29,360 --> 02:21:31,560
for a lot of older responders?

1487
02:21:31,560 --> 02:21:39,040
Yeah, mobility, like for me, off season for firefighting is all about getting in shape

1488
02:21:39,040 --> 02:21:45,320
and getting ready being injury free day one, but ready to fight fire. You transition into

1489
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:50,000
fire season, it's really hard to physically train or PT is what we call it during the

1490
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:53,520
fire season, because you're out on assignment. So the things that I really queue into is

1491
02:21:53,520 --> 02:22:03,600
recovery, mobility, and maintenance. Our population is not very mobile, your population probably

1492
02:22:03,600 --> 02:22:12,840
isn't as well, because I think it's just firefighters in general. But we see very unmovable ankles,

1493
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:17,000
really unmovable hips and shoulders, which leads to all sorts of things like back pain,

1494
02:22:17,000 --> 02:22:28,120
neck problems. And so we incorporate mobility into our program pretty heavily, because the

1495
02:22:28,120 --> 02:22:33,040
more mobile you are, the less prone to injury you're going to be.

1496
02:22:33,040 --> 02:22:38,040
Brilliant. Love it. All right, well, then I want to transition some closing questions.

1497
02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:41,000
We've been chatting for almost two and a half hours. I had a funny feeling this is going

1498
02:22:41,000 --> 02:22:45,520
to be a long conversation. Yeah, no, but it's good. There's so much on pack and then we

1499
02:22:45,520 --> 02:22:50,320
haven't even I mean, we've barely even delved into the true human performance side, but

1500
02:22:50,320 --> 02:22:55,840
that'll be for part two. So the first question I'd love to ask, is there a book that you

1501
02:22:55,840 --> 02:23:00,680
love to recommend it can be related to what we've discussed today or completely unrelated?

1502
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:09,400
Okay, can I give like three, please? Okay, cool. The first the first book, which is amazing

1503
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:14,320
that a lot of people know about a friend of mine help write it is called Becoming a Supple

1504
02:23:14,320 --> 02:23:20,080
Leopard. So I think that's an amazing book. If we're talking about physical fitness, mobility

1505
02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:26,920
and just optimizing the physical body, that's a great place to start. A book I give to my

1506
02:23:26,920 --> 02:23:33,260
guys is called as a man thinketh. That's a great short read. It talks about basically

1507
02:23:33,260 --> 02:23:40,400
the power of your thoughts. And then the last book, I'll recommend which really connected

1508
02:23:40,400 --> 02:23:46,120
a lot of dots for me as a person is called Awareness by Anthony D'Amelo. Anthony D'Amelo.

1509
02:23:46,120 --> 02:23:49,680
All right, you mentioned Supple Leopard and that was Kelly Starratt. Who was the friend

1510
02:23:49,680 --> 02:23:55,680
that helped write that? Glenn Cordoza is the he helped authored that book. Excellent. Very

1511
02:23:55,680 --> 02:24:00,720
cool. Hey, Kelly, someone I still need to get on the show at some point. Yeah, yeah,

1512
02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:07,480
for sure. All right, next question. Is there a movie that you love? A movie? Man, there's

1513
02:24:07,480 --> 02:24:16,200
like movies. That's that's like the I'll just go with the first thing that popped into my

1514
02:24:16,200 --> 02:24:23,800
head. How about that? And that was Braveheart. There's a ton of movies. I like all kinds

1515
02:24:23,800 --> 02:24:27,240
of movies, but that was the first one that popped in there. Brilliant. All right. What

1516
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:32,920
about documentary? Any of those that you've seen that you really enjoyed? Dude, that Alex

1517
02:24:32,920 --> 02:24:38,160
Honnold movie where he's free, free solo, I think it's called. Yeah, that one was pretty

1518
02:24:38,160 --> 02:24:41,200
powerful. I think my palms are sweating the whole time. I think that was probably the

1519
02:24:41,200 --> 02:24:45,560
most recent documentary that was pretty pumped up on. Brilliant. Yeah, that's another person

1520
02:24:45,560 --> 02:24:50,840
I'd love to get on one day just talking about training and fear and all those kind of areas.

1521
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:55,160
Well, speaking of that, so is there a person you would recommend to come on this podcast

1522
02:24:55,160 --> 02:24:59,680
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1523
02:24:59,680 --> 02:25:05,920
world? Yeah, man, there's a there's a guy named Matt Holmstrom. He's a he's from my

1524
02:25:05,920 --> 02:25:12,760
line of work. He's a mentor of mine and he is a brilliant man and has a lot of perspective.

1525
02:25:12,760 --> 02:25:18,720
I think he would be an amazing person to have on. I also think there's another individual

1526
02:25:18,720 --> 02:25:25,160
you could have on talking about the pros and cons of this job. His name is Lucas Mayfield

1527
02:25:25,160 --> 02:25:32,040
and runs the grassroots effort that's happening outside of our agency to sort of help advocate

1528
02:25:32,040 --> 02:25:38,320
for firefighters. Excellent. Two great suggestions. Thank you so much. All right. Well, then the

1529
02:25:38,320 --> 02:25:46,580
last question before we talk about where we can find you online, what you do to decompress?

1530
02:25:46,580 --> 02:25:54,460
What I do to decompress is I kind of talked about it. I have a very disciplined life and

1531
02:25:54,460 --> 02:26:03,760
I make sure that I am successful in achieving my structure where I physical fitness is something

1532
02:26:03,760 --> 02:26:09,520
long runs, mountain bike rides, things like this, but also really appreciating the things

1533
02:26:09,520 --> 02:26:16,360
in front of me and recognizing how special that stuff is. And primarily what I'm talking

1534
02:26:16,360 --> 02:26:22,200
about is spending really good time with my family. Brilliant. Well, mentioning the family

1535
02:26:22,200 --> 02:26:28,360
for a second, the Vice news guys did a great piece on you and there was a moment where

1536
02:26:28,360 --> 02:26:32,000
it was one of your supervisors that actually left, you know, partly I think because of

1537
02:26:32,000 --> 02:26:38,640
the financial side. Yeah. And they asked him about, you know, do you regret or I think

1538
02:26:38,640 --> 02:26:43,560
it was your, I can't exactly how they framed it, but basically do you regret the impact

1539
02:26:43,560 --> 02:26:49,000
of your profession on your ability to be around your children? And he almost immediately,

1540
02:26:49,000 --> 02:26:53,600
and we can all recognize the same response. He choked up, you know, you could tell absolutely

1541
02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:57,280
he was flooded with that. He did the most amazing thing, did an incredible profession,

1542
02:26:57,280 --> 02:27:03,800
was very selfless in what he did and his family were as well, but that is an element in a

1543
02:27:03,800 --> 02:27:08,080
lot of the people listening. You mentioned stepping off the hamster wheel because of

1544
02:27:08,080 --> 02:27:13,640
the impact that you were seeing on your family. Are you, is this something that you see yourself

1545
02:27:13,640 --> 02:27:20,040
doing for a long time or are you considering transitioning to something else? I want to

1546
02:27:20,040 --> 02:27:27,920
retire as a hotshot superintendent. That is my goal right now. Because there's a, you

1547
02:27:27,920 --> 02:27:32,040
know what? It's, I don't want to say that in absolute, I don't really want to talk in

1548
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:42,320
absolute in anything that I talk about, but I find, you know, I see a challenge to be

1549
02:27:42,320 --> 02:27:49,720
someone that can be resilient and mentor people correctly to guide them away from some of

1550
02:27:49,720 --> 02:27:55,920
the pitfalls that we see from folks that have those feelings of maybe, I don't know if regret's

1551
02:27:55,920 --> 02:28:01,080
the right word, but those moments that choke you up, like we're talking about from my boss,

1552
02:28:01,080 --> 02:28:07,960
Aaron. And, and I feel like whether I can do it or not, I'm, I'm up to the challenge

1553
02:28:07,960 --> 02:28:13,720
to be the person that can be that, have that resiliency and have an actual very successful

1554
02:28:13,720 --> 02:28:19,560
career and help people be successful as well. And that's kind of the, that's, that's kind

1555
02:28:19,560 --> 02:28:24,000
of what I want to do. I don't know if it'll be possible, but I'm going to give it my goddamn

1556
02:28:24,000 --> 02:28:29,160
best. Beautiful. All right. Well then for people that have listened that, you know,

1557
02:28:29,160 --> 02:28:32,720
obviously there's so much to pull out. I mean, you've got your mental health story. You've

1558
02:28:32,720 --> 02:28:37,600
got obviously the work you do with human performance and your career as a hotshot. Where are the

1559
02:28:37,600 --> 02:28:44,240
best places for people to find out more about you or reach out to you online? Yeah. I mean,

1560
02:28:44,240 --> 02:28:54,600
you can, I'm on Instagram pretty frequently. Just Ben, strong B E N S T R A H A N. And

1561
02:28:54,600 --> 02:28:58,520
you'll hear me talking about this stuff like crazy on there. And that's pretty much how

1562
02:28:58,520 --> 02:29:04,000
I use that platform nowadays. It's just a be real. You can also find me on tactical

1563
02:29:04,000 --> 02:29:09,880
athletics. That's another Instagram thing that I got going on. Those are the two best

1564
02:29:09,880 --> 02:29:14,720
places to find me. Beautiful. Well, Ben, I just want to say thank you. It's been an amazing

1565
02:29:14,720 --> 02:29:18,660
conversation. I feel like we barely scratched the surface, but that's what always happens

1566
02:29:18,660 --> 02:29:22,280
when you, you know, like I said, you meet people that, you know, have so much that you

1567
02:29:22,280 --> 02:29:27,480
want to pull out of them. But firstly, just thank you for, for telling your story. I mean,

1568
02:29:27,480 --> 02:29:35,120
the courage it takes to speak, you know, and be transparent about what you went through

1569
02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:39,840
is exactly what we need to hear. You know, you've got these alpha males and females that

1570
02:29:39,840 --> 02:29:45,960
are out there on SWAT teams as hotshots, smokejumpers, whatever it is. And those are the people that

1571
02:29:45,960 --> 02:29:50,800
I think if they hear, if we hear that they've been to some dark places, then a lot of us

1572
02:29:50,800 --> 02:29:54,360
look ourselves and go, well, then why am I saying I can't, you know, if this Navy seal

1573
02:29:54,360 --> 02:29:59,320
went through some shit, why can James Gearing, you know, have this facade that I, I'm better

1574
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:04,160
than that. So it's so important that we hear that. And it's so important that we also hear

1575
02:30:04,160 --> 02:30:09,680
the journey out of that. So thank you for telling your story. Thank you for your courage.

1576
02:30:09,680 --> 02:30:15,480
And I truly appreciate you come on the show today. I don't know who connected us, man,

1577
02:30:15,480 --> 02:30:20,680
but I'm very grateful for whoever that person was. And James, thank you for giving me the

1578
02:30:20,680 --> 02:30:33,480
opportunity to speak with people. I appreciate it.