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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.

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Well, since then, I have actually been using my products and I've had incredible success.

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There was initial blood work that was extremely detailed and based on that, they offered supplementation.

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So I began taking DHEA, BPC157 for inflammation based on the fact that I've been a stump man and martial artist and a firefighter my whole life, lots of aches and pains,

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Dihexa to help cognition after multiple punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later, they did a detailed blood work again and I was actually able to taper off two of the peptides because my body had responded so well to just one of them that it was optimized at that point.

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So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense range of supplementation that they offer, whether it's male health, female health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, which I would argue is needed by a lot of the fire service,

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or whether it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of this company is an altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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which is putting veterans and first responders through some of their protocols free of charge.

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Now Transcend are also offering you the audience 10% off their protocols and you can find that on JamesGearing.com under the products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 808 with the founder Ernie Colling or go to TranscendCompany.com.

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Welcome to the podcast as always. My name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter, paramedic and police officer Steve Barger.

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Now what makes this conversation so powerful and unique is Steve's department is on a barrier island.

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So as you will hear, they serve on the EMS side, the fire side and the law enforcement side.

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What's also interesting is they moved to 2472. So you get to hear the story of before and all the incredible changes that they've seen since they moved to that progressive shift.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you Steve Barger. Enjoy.

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Well, Steve, I want to start by saying firstly, congratulations on your win, which we'll get to in a second.

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And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Absolutely. I appreciate them.

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You know, I think it's super important to get the word out there about making the fire department better than it is today and leaving a better than we found it.

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100%. So very first question there, where on planet Earth we finding you today?

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Yeah, so I'm currently in Southport, North Carolina on the southeast coast of North Carolina.

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And that's starting to cool off a little bit here.

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This is probably my favorite time of year because the humidity is down and you can get out there and enjoy it.

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Not as many bugs either. And so it's really a beautiful place, especially coming here from Ohio.

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It's really nice to live close to the beach just outside the tourist area so I can raise my family in a normal neighborhood type lifestyle.

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But, yep, southeastern North Carolina.

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Beautiful. Yeah, I don't think people understand all the tourists obviously come to Florida in the summer normally,

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but most of us down here are also just craving the winter because it's still blue skies, still gorgeous beaches, but the weather is absolutely beautiful this time of year.

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Absolutely. I always tell everybody spring and fall are my favorite because the weather is absolutely more bearable and I can get outside and play with my kids a lot more.

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And we can do a lot more outside activities. I'm a girl that I have three daughters.

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And so there's less complaining this time of year when we're outside doing stuff.

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I don't know if we even have technically a fall or a spring here, but the winter, the cool part that we have that lasts about a month and a half, that's my favorite.

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Well, you mentioned Ohio, so let's start at the very beginning of your timeline then.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Absolutely. So I grew up in Akron, Ohio and in a normal middle class family.

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And when I graduated high school, I had made the decision to go to college.

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I started in college and I didn't do great in college at first.

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I took more to the partying than the studying.

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And about that time, my mom was diagnosed with cancer.

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And so, you know, the decision to quit college and kind of get into the workforce a little bit took a priority.

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So I did that and I had a landscaping company at the time.

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I was successful. I started when I was in high school and I just wasn't feeling fulfilled with that anymore.

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And so I enrolled in EMT school and from there I went to paramedic school,

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volunteer firefighter and ended up down here in North Carolina to live.

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And I worked for Horry County Fire Rescue for a number of years, which is also where Myrtle Beach is.

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And then once I got married, my wife is from Brunswick County, North Carolina.

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So we moved up this way to be closer to her parents to help out with our future family.

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And that's where I find myself at today is in Brunswick County, North Carolina.

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I'm one of three children. My parents still reside in Ohio, actually, and my brother and sister both do as well.

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And so I'm the only emergency responder in my family.

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And I don't come from a long line of first responders either. It's just something I was always interested in.

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The little boy, you know, loving fire trucks kind of mentality just never left me as I grew up.

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And so once I stopped going to college the first time, I really decided I was going to do what I wanted to.

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When I was in college, my goal was to become a lawyer.

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And basically that was, you know, I knew I could make money that way and it was a respectable job and all those things.

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But it wasn't really what I wanted to do.

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And so once I got into the fire department, I really found my calling there and serving my community.

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Well, you mentioned that your parents, plural, still live in Ohio.

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So talk to me about your mom's cancer journey.

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And I'm assuming it was a good ending. Absolutely.

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Yes. My mom's been in remission for a number of years.

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She's healthy to this day.

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You know, it was a hard time because I'm the oldest.

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So my brother and sister were still in high school and middle school during that time.

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And seeing the toll, it not only took on my mom, but my dad as well.

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And being the eldest child of my parents, you know, feeling that responsibility of, you know,

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trying to help out as much as possible while maintaining, you know, whatever I was doing at the time,

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you know, going to school for a period of time and working.

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And it was definitely challenging.

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I learned a lot about myself and my parents and my siblings during that time.

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And, you know, I'm glad to say today that, again, my mom is healthy.

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She's been in remission for over 15 years now.

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And it's something that we can talk about what we learned from it.

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But it doesn't have to define our family today.

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Absolutely. What about professions? What were your parents doing?

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Yeah. So my mom stayed at home during the day and, you know, took care of us kids.

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My dad worked in the private sector.

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And my mom, when my dad got home in the evening, my mom would go to work.

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And she worked in the restaurant industry for a number of years.

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And so dual working household, normal family challenges like many families face today,

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you know, making ends meet growing up and my parents had to do what they had to do.

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And they sacrificed a lot for myself, my sister, my brother,

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for us to have what we had when we were growing up and for us to be the very people we are today as well.

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What about sports and exercise? What were you playing and doing when you were in school age?

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Yeah. So me and my sister and my brother, we all participated in athletics and after school activities and church and all those things.

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I played basketball and football. And then once I got into high school was just football.

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I concentrated on I had a number of injuries that kind of prevented some future things with some of that.

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But at the same time, it was a great learning experience.

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I think the aspect of team sports is good for any child to learn

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because as you become an adult, especially in the workforce,

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being able to work as part of a team and being able to compromise and build those relationships

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and be successful, not as an individual, but as a cohesive unit is very important.

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I think that plays a lot into my dynamics and my thought process in the fire department as well.

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Well, you mentioned about being a little boy, having that burning in your heart when you were a child.

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Was that what you always wanted to be?

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Or was there any other career aspirations as you progressed out of high school?

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No, you know, I think the fire department thing really stuck with me since I was a small child.

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I do a funny story. I remember I was probably about five or six years old.

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My mom still tells the story to this day and we laugh about it.

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I had taken a toy from a friend of mine's house and I was five or six years old.

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My mom found it in my raincoat.

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And her solution to teach me a lesson was not only returning that toy to the family friend,

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but she took me to the police station and basically wanted the police officer to tell me

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that I would end up in jail as I grew up if I was going to take things from people.

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And my mom describes it to this day as that police officer was mortified that a woman would bring her child

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into the police station and want him to reprimand her child and, you know, tell him he's going to go to jail.

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And I still remember, you know, vaguely the incident to this day.

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But my mom tells it funny because, you know, the police officer who was at the front desk that day was really like,

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wow, this lady is really doing this to her kid.

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But I guess it had a lasting impression on me.

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I should you not. My mom did the same thing, but she left me at the police station, I think, for for an hour or so.

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And so, you know, I was basically, quote unquote, under arrest and I was single digits then myself.

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I was young. And then another time she took me to what actually is a secondary school, the comprehensive.

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But she told me it was a prison and that she was going to take me to the prison.

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So it looks like your mom and my mom had similar parenting tactics.

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Yeah. You know, being a police officer now, because I work in a public safety agency where we're fire,

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paramedic and police officers, you know, makes it unique because dealing with the community and dealing with the public,

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a lot of times I hear people say that to their children, like, watch out for that police officer.

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He's he's watching you or something like that.

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And, you know, that situation that day with my mom really had nothing to do with me ever getting into law enforcement.

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But I hear parents say that today and it always brings back that memory of, you know,

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my mom doing that with me and, you know, my parents were, you know, I grew up in a great family.

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I grew up in a great household. My parents were great and they had high expectations for us.

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But we also knew we were loved as well, which I think is important.

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Absolutely. Well, walk me through then your journey EMT to medic and what were the the environments that you're working with

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and was there any aha moments having come from a regular civilian life to seeing behind the curtain of your community?

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Yeah. So in Ohio, EMS education is delivered a little bit differently.

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It's not through the community college system like it is here in North Carolina.

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It's actually through the hospital system. So the hospitals have their own paramedic programs and schools.

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And so basically you go to school at the hospital.

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So I did EMT and Ohio is a national registry state.

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They actually don't have their own state test. So you take national registry to get your certification as your state test.

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Where a lot of states have a state test and you take national registry.

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So I actually failed national registry the first time for EMT.

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And, you know, after going through the class and I failed the test and I really had to had to think about my man,

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am I doing the right thing? Like I spent all this time.

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How did I fail the test? And it was definitely a long brainstorming section and a lot of prayer to take the test again.

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And then I pass it. So I immediately enroll in paramedic school because in Ohio,

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if you want to be a firefighter, you almost always have to be a paramedic because it's fire based EMS.

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So I enroll in paramedic school and I get about three quarters of the way through

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and I failed out because I failed a second unit exam and it was actually pharmacology.

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I remember going home and telling my grandma or going home and then going visit my grandmother and telling her I failed paramedic school.

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And so what happened? I said I failed the drug test and she did a double take at me.

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And because in her mind, I was doing drugs and failed a drug test in my mind, you know, words matter.

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Right. In my mind, I failed a written test on on drugs or pharmacology.

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So again, I was faced with do I really want to do this?

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And I had made it far enough through the course in Ohio where I could test for my EMT 99 or intermediate 99.

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That's back when there was two levels of intermediate financial registry.

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I took that test and passed it. And so I kind of sat there for about a year working in an EMS only service in Cleveland.

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And then I decided, OK, I've grown up a little bit.

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I really want to do this. And I enrolled back in the paramedic school again and passed the class and passed the test on the first try.

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And I'm thankful for all those experiences.

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I like to tell my children now failure is going to happen to everybody.

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And it's how you deal with failure and how you deal with adversity.

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You know, what one of the things I always like to say is, you know, adversity is a horrible thing to waste,

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because if everything is too easy and you don't ever meet any kind of resistance, you don't learn how to work harder.

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You don't learn how to test yourself and test your boundaries.

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And so through adversity, I feel like that always makes you better.

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And, you know, in the fire service, you see a lot of people, you know, refuse to fail and all these different things about failure,

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how bad failure is. And while nobody sets out to fail anything on purpose,

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I think the way we utilize failure and grow from it just makes us a more well-rounded individual.

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And so I faced adversity and failed opportunity a couple of different times.

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But I think it was great and maybe the clinician I am today.

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I like that phrase fail forward, you know, learn from that and become better from it.

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I remember even this is a trivial example, but when I did martial arts, even if I lost a fight and it was poor judging,

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maybe I would have won that fight. I remember thinking that doesn't matter. Throw that away.

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If you want to win, then you need to win convincingly.

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You need to knock them out or you need to win, you know, 10 to 0, whatever style that you're doing.

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So it really forges that ownership. But it also, you know, allows you to relax and,

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and, you know, fail on the training ground, because, I mean, I one of the worst things I've seen throughout my career

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and arguably the worst fire department was someone would do an evolution once and they check a box.

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And the half time, you know, more often than not, they would do it horribly.

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But it was like, well, you did the at the ladder throw. You did the hose pull, you know, rather than no, you know, do it again.

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Do it again. It's OK to get it wrong here. Get it wrong here.

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So when you're at that house with that kid hanging out the window, you get it right.

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Absolutely. And that's the exact same thing. I tell my folks on shift now is, you know,

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I would much rather us make these mistakes in the bay or the training tower, wherever it is,

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so that when we're out there in the public eye and we're out there on a call, when it actually matters,

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when lives are on the line, when time is working against you, you can rely on that training

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and that experience that you've created on the training ground, because, you know,

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when you get a structure fire or any kind of call and you haven't touched your ropes or your hoses,

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your ladders and God knows how long you're going to make mistakes.

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And I'm one of those, you know, perfect is not something anybody ever achieves.

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I always tell my guys, you know, we're going to chase excellence, but we're never going to reach it

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because if you're always moving forward and chasing that one thing,

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you're always going to be getting better every single day.

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I remember a sign on a CrossFit gym wall years ago and it said it never gets easier.

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And I love that because you get fitter, you get stronger, you get more mobile, you get faster,

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but the workout always stays hard. You're just moving more, you're moving faster.

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So that whole philosophy that you're chasing this thing, it's the carrot on the stick.

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You're never going to get it, but it's the actual art of chasing it that is, you know,

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incrementally improving you.

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Yeah, I started ultra running a couple years ago and I remember the first day that I started running.

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I'm like, man, a mile was really far. Then three miles was really far.

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Then five and ten and so on.

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And, you know, I've got a couple of 50 mile races under my belt now.

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And I was talking to my younger brother the other day who's coming down in January to run a 50 mile ultra marathon with me.

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It's going to be a super cool experience to run that race with my younger brother,

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cross the finish line together.

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And he was working through some anxiety the other day about it.

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And I told him, I said, Kevin, I said, this is going to hurt no matter how hard you work

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because you're not going to erase any pain you're going to feel during it

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because the faster you get, the harder you're going to push.

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Exactly what you just said. And it's always going to hurt.

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The pain is going to be there. You're not going to train the pain away.

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So just keep training, keep working harder and we're going to do the very best we can that day.

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We're going to finish it, but just know it's going to hurt.

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So that's where I follow a female runner, Courtney Dualter,

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who is arguably the best ultra runner in the world right now.

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Definitely the best female ultra runner in the world.

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And she talks about this thing called the pain cave and she's got this crazy mentality.

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And I mean, she is just emotionally intelligent and mentally her mental fitness is just out of this world.

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But she talks about when it starts hurting, she pictures herself in this what she calls the pain cave.

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She starts chiseling away at it and every race she makes her pain cave bigger.

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That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. She's just learning how to deal with it better.

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And so running has been an awesome kind of burst of new energy into my life.

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And it's really helped me out a lot and put a lot of things in perspective.

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Absolutely. Well, you mentioned about doing EMS in Ohio.

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We're talking kind of early 2000s. When I first moved to the US,

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I kind of saw the back end of the the pill mills,

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you know, the prescription element of the opioid crisis here in Broward County.

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But when I think about where is the real hotspot, the hub of the actual,

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you know, the victims of that, I think about West Virginia and Ohio.

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So were you seeing that when you were working back then?

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Yeah, we definitely saw that. I'll tell you, I've actually seen more of it here in North Carolina.

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We have Wilmington very close to us.

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So being on the coast and having a state port right next to us

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and, you know, the interstate highways coming through here, we have interstate 40.

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We have 95, which comes straight up from Florida where you're at.

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And so there is a lot of illegal drug mobilization through North Carolina,

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through southeastern North Carolina, as well as Ohio.

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So a bulk of my career now has been spent in North Carolina.

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So I would say I've been faced with more of it here than I was up there.

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And ebbs and flows, you know, for a long time, it was cocaine, then it was heroin.

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And then you had the different types of heroin with the black tar and all that kind of stuff.

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And now obviously, it's the fentanyl crisis that we find ourselves in now here

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and really across the nation and probably across the world.

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And so, you know, being close to Wilmington,

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we have a lot of military bases around us with transient populations as well.

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And so, yeah, we do see quite a bit of it in this region.

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I can tell you, I currently, you know, the department I work at right now

249
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is a barrier island off the coast of North Carolina here.

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So we don't see as much of it there just because it's more of a vacation spot.

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We only have about 500 year-round residents there.

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But here on the mainland, we see a ton of it throughout the region.

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Yeah, that was what's sad is that when this was going on,

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these were prescription pills too, you know, initially.

255
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And then I actually had Sam Quinonez on who wrote Dreamland

256
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and he was detailing how, you know, as the pill mills were shut down,

257
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that's when you saw the gangs with the black tar heroin coming through from Mexico.

258
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And now, obviously, that's even taken a backseat to fentanyl.

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But all of this was initiated by a drug approved by the FDA that was, you know,

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completely falsely approved.

261
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And we're learning now, obviously, about the kind of corruption behind that.

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The former, you know, Purdue members of the board or whatever it was

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are working now for the FDA.

264
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So I think this is an important, you know, story to tell.

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This illicit drug, as we call it now, started in a trusted pharmaceutical sense,

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you know, being prescribed by doctors that were also being hoodwinked

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about the efficacy and the safety.

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Yeah, I think one important thing to point out as you're talking about,

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you know, the addiction and the opioid crisis and everything,

270
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is there is not one socioeconomic class or race or any group of people

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that is unaffected by that.

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I think that's one thing that I really learned probably in the last decade

273
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is my own personal perception of what a user or an addict was,

274
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was not even close to what it really is.

275
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There is successful professionals out there, doctors, lawyers, nurses,

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if you name it, firefighters who battle addiction.

277
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And it sometimes starts very innocently at post-surgery or something like that,

278
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where somebody has a surgical procedure or something

279
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and they get prescribed these medications,

280
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like you said, that were approved through the FDA.

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And whether they were overprescribed or whatever it may have been,

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they form a habit and an addiction just from that.

283
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Again, it starts out as an innocent use of a prescription medication

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or something you were prescribed for.

285
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And, you know, so the pill mills were a big problem

286
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and as they were getting shut down, it turned into heroin.

287
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And so again, you end up with a lot of heroin addicts

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who potentially were initially introduced to it through legal means.

289
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I think it's also an exciting time because if you think about,

290
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for example, the crack epidemic, you know, arguably that was certain sections

291
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and normally the poorer neighborhoods in certain areas.

292
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And so you could kind of look down your nose.

293
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I mean, I wouldn't, but, you know, people would look down their nose

294
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and like, oh, they're an addict.

295
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Of course, they'd go home then and drink, you know, half a bottle of whiskey,

296
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exactly the same damn thing.

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But there was that kind of snobbery, that tear system, if you like.

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Now, because it is revealed that it doesn't matter, you know, this is everyone.

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Now, I think there's maybe you can get the most support

300
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because everyone knows someone who's lost someone.

301
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Like everyone does now to this kind of, you know, the opioid crisis.

302
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So I hope that, you know, people like maybe RFK

303
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and some of these people that we're seeing emerge now

304
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that can actually kind of frame this differently

305
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that hopefully we can finally turn a corner, change the way we do some things

306
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and actually show addiction for what it is,

307
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a mental health crisis that surpasses any barriers.

308
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Yeah, you know, from personal experience,

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I used to think that, you know, anybody could beat anything on their own.

310
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And as we'll get into, I learned firsthand that that's not always possible.

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You know, alcoholism ran in my family and I really didn't know it

312
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because I kind of dismissed it.

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And I thought, you know, I wasn't those people or my family,

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it wasn't those people.

315
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But like you just mentioned, there's not a single person in this country

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that has not known somebody who's been affected by addiction to drugs

317
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or alcohol or anything else.

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And I think we do find ourselves in a really exciting time right now

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because we have normalized the ability to talk about it

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and we have normalized the ability to overcome it.

321
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For a long time, you know, people would suffer with addiction,

322
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triumph with sobriety, and they would hold on to it and hide it.

323
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And man, what a wasted achievement

324
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because sometimes it takes just one person to share their story

325
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or partner with somebody or be their accountability partner

326
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or whatever it may be.

327
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It might take just one person to have one conversation to save another life.

328
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And I think that's one of the big things that I've really set out to do now is,

329
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you know, while I was uncomfortable for a long time

330
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and it still is periodically for me to talk about addiction,

331
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I've always told my wife and my close friends

332
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that the conversation is worth it if it positively affects one other person.

333
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I couldn't agree more.

334
00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:38,380
Well, you mentioned about the alcoholism in your family.

335
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When you look back, your parents and even further back,

336
00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:46,580
you know, what were some of the struggles that they encountered

337
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that you think led them to alcohol,

338
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,880
then we'll obviously get to your journey.

339
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,880
Yeah, so my parents actually never suffered from it,

340
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,180
but my uncle on my mom's side and my grandfather, my mom's father,

341
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both suffered from alcoholism.

342
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And, you know, my uncle and I have always been close.

343
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His name is Steve as well.

344
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But I also credit him with helping me in my sobriety.

345
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You know, so growing up as a child,

346
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my uncle worked in the steel business in Cleveland, Ohio,

347
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which was a big deal, you know, big business in Cleveland back then.

348
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And I remember I was probably eight years old.

349
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My mom told me that Uncle Steve was going to drive a train for a while.

350
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He'd be gone for a while.

351
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And there was a train at the steel yard that he used to take me to to see.

352
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So it just made sense as a kid,

353
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Uncle Steve's going to drive this train.

354
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And so I bought into that life for years

355
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until I realized Uncle Steve was in prison

356
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because he went to pick up a package of illegal drugs.

357
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I don't remember what it was at the time.

358
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Probably cocaine.

359
00:27:54,980 --> 00:28:01,380
He went to pick up a package at a FedEx place that was that was illegal drugs.

360
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And he got picked up by drug agents right there in Cleveland

361
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and and did time for it.

362
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And he never told me about it until years later when I asked about it.

363
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And so I watched my uncle

364
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:17,080
binge over the years with drugs and alcohol.

365
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He would come around for a couple weeks and be gone for weeks or months.

366
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And he'd come around and he'd be gone.

367
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:32,780
But a number of years ago, he finally decided enough was enough.

368
00:28:32,780 --> 00:28:36,780
And through AA and an awesome support system he had,

369
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he got sober and still sober to this day.

370
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,180
And I should know exactly how many years, but I don't remember.

371
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I'm pretty sure it's 11 years for him now.

372
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And he was a huge, huge, huge advocate and accountability partner for me

373
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to to my own sobriety.

374
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My grandfather passed away, had a heart attack

375
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,780
and very, very much directly related to his alcoholism over the years as well.

376
00:29:02,780 --> 00:29:06,180
And I'm lucky to still have Uncle Steve here with me today.

377
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:09,880
And so, you know, we've got a great relationship.

378
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,980
I talked to him nearly every day early in the morning.

379
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We both get up early in the morning now and we get up with grace

380
00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:19,580
and we're thankful that we have a new day of sobriety

381
00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:25,180
and we have a new day of sharing that and helping others get sober as well.

382
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:27,380
You know, I mentioned he used AA.

383
00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:29,780
I use Celebrate Recovery through my church.

384
00:29:29,780 --> 00:29:35,280
And, you know, unfortunately, it almost took me losing my family

385
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,380
to realize I had to make a change in my life.

386
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:41,080
And I remember sitting with a counselor with my wife

387
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,080
and he looked at me and he said, you know, Steve, you can stop drinking.

388
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,580
And I mean, how many times had I heard that, right?

389
00:29:47,580 --> 00:29:53,480
And but I was on the brink of losing my family and I had a decision to make.

390
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,780
And so I went to Celebrate Recovery, which is basically a Christian

391
00:29:58,780 --> 00:30:00,680
in the church version of AA.

392
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,280
And I learned there that everybody has a heart, habit or hang up.

393
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,380
And through that, I was able to get a mentor and accountability partners

394
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:11,980
and work 12 steps through that program as well

395
00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:19,080
and really get my life back and give my family, the husband and father,

396
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,280
back that they deserve.

397
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,880
You know, growing up, I watched my dad buy a six pack of beer

398
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,280
and it would last him a week or two.

399
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,280
That's by no means a drinking problem.

400
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,580
My dad was able to control it.

401
00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:37,480
And to be honest with you, my dad still denies, I think,

402
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,880
when I talk about being sober, my dad still sometimes, I think,

403
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,780
denies that I had a problem because in his mind, everybody can control their actions.

404
00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:51,080
Everybody can control what they do or don't do.

405
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,480
And for a long time, I kind of heard him say that, like, about my uncle,

406
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,380
like, well, why doesn't he just stop?

407
00:30:55,380 --> 00:30:58,280
And it wasn't until I was faced with my own problem

408
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:05,180
that I realized that just stopping isn't always an easy option for people.

409
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:08,280
When you kind of reflected, when you worked through the steps,

410
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,680
were there any elements of your early life

411
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:16,980
that contributed to this need to fill the void with alcohol?

412
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:20,380
You know, I grew up in a family that had high expectations

413
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:22,880
and I think to a certain extent, I probably thought for years

414
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,780
I didn't meet those expectations, especially when I quit college.

415
00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:33,180
That's one reason that in my role on the county school board here,

416
00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:39,880
I've always worked to tell students that you define your own success.

417
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,180
You know, when I graduated high school, if you didn't go to a four-year university,

418
00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:47,680
you were kind of looked like, oh, you're not going to be as successful as the people who did.

419
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,580
And so I did what I was supposed to do. I went to college.

420
00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:54,480
And I got some benefit out of it because when I went back,

421
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,380
there were some credits that were able to transfer and carry over.

422
00:31:57,380 --> 00:32:01,780
But what I got out of it was partying, hanging out in the bar scene in the city.

423
00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:09,880
And that was probably the start of unhealthy relationships with alcohol,

424
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,880
you know, probably with women.

425
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,680
And, you know, that just kind of spiraled out of control to where,

426
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,380
you know, I was drinking every day that I wasn't on shift at the fire department.

427
00:32:20,380 --> 00:32:26,380
And you couple that with the stress of the job and what you see and do.

428
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:34,780
And, you know, addiction runs rampant through first responders, as we know.

429
00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:39,580
And so, you know, I was surrounding myself with the wrong people.

430
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:42,580
And I'm not saying the wrong people that you shouldn't hang out with your coworkers.

431
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:44,680
But I was surrounding myself with enablers.

432
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,380
That's probably the better way to say it because I was doing and they were doing this.

433
00:32:48,380 --> 00:32:53,180
We all thought that was normal while we were all going down a very dangerous path.

434
00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:57,480
So, you know, when I look back into the past, absolutely,

435
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,880
there's specific situations where I went, man, that led to this, which led to that,

436
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,080
which got me to this point where, you know, there was a point in my life

437
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,180
where I thought there was no turning back and I was going to be just what I was.

438
00:33:11,180 --> 00:33:14,180
Until I learned to surround myself with the right people,

439
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:17,980
I realized how supportive my wife was during all this.

440
00:33:17,980 --> 00:33:21,380
I learned how challenging it can be to be a spouse of an alcoholic, right?

441
00:33:21,380 --> 00:33:29,780
So, you know, we all talk about the alcoholic and the addict and what it does to them.

442
00:33:29,780 --> 00:33:33,980
But everybody around them are suffering with them.

443
00:33:33,980 --> 00:33:42,780
And so, you know, I'm grateful for my wife's strength and her passion to see it to the end with me.

444
00:33:42,780 --> 00:33:45,980
And we celebrate that every day.

445
00:33:45,980 --> 00:33:47,980
What would you define as your lowest point?

446
00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:51,380
You mentioned that you're sitting in front of this spiritual guide

447
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:54,580
and we're talking about saving your marriage and you've got to stop drinking.

448
00:33:54,580 --> 00:33:57,280
When you reflect, was there any suicide ideation?

449
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,280
What was the kind of behavior that took you down that path where it almost destroyed your family?

450
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,380
No, I didn't have suicidal ideation.

451
00:34:04,380 --> 00:34:10,380
But when my wife told me enough is enough and, you know,

452
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:14,780
we're going to have to go separate ways because my wife worked in the private sector

453
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:18,980
and she'd come home every day and on the surface outside of our house,

454
00:34:18,980 --> 00:34:21,180
everybody thought I was doing everything right.

455
00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:25,880
You know, I worked for our department schedule and I would, you know,

456
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,780
my kids were clothed and we have a nice house and everything was taken care of.

457
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:38,480
And, you know, so, you know, when I got home in the afternoons and I would start drinking heavily.

458
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,380
And then when my wife would get home from work, you know, her husband standing in the kitchen,

459
00:34:42,380 --> 00:34:48,180
yeah, dinner was done. Things were probably picked up, the normal things that she would expect.

460
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:51,180
But here I was standing there intoxicated every day.

461
00:34:51,180 --> 00:34:56,180
And so my wife looking me in the eyes and telling me, you know,

462
00:34:56,180 --> 00:35:00,280
the girls and I are going to have to go somewhere else because we can't live like this.

463
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,780
That was the lowest point for me by far.

464
00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:05,780
So then let's talk about the other side.

465
00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:11,080
What were the tools that helped you, you know, pull yourself out of this deep pit?

466
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:16,680
Because I mean, just not drinking anymore, obviously, is an immense mountain for most people.

467
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,480
So what were some of the things that you accumulated that help you start to unpack the issues

468
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,180
that would drag you back into the bowl?

469
00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:33,080
Yeah, so I had to come to terms with denial because I kept telling myself I wasn't what Brandy said I was, right?

470
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,580
And so I had because I never went to work in Paris.

471
00:35:36,580 --> 00:35:42,280
So in my mind, just because I was drunk every day I was off, I didn't have a problem.

472
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,180
The denial piece of it was I couldn't not have it when I was off work.

473
00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:57,580
And so that was the first thing is I had to come to terms with, you know, the definition of what an addict was.

474
00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:04,880
I had to come to terms with I single handedly had no control over my own actions.

475
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:12,380
And it took a small group of men who were also battling the same things I was not all alcohol.

476
00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:14,480
Some was drugs, some was porn addiction.

477
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:21,580
But all of it was we had to get in and get raw and really get down to the brass tacks of what was going on.

478
00:36:21,580 --> 00:36:27,080
And so working the 12 steps and learning different things I could use for coping mechanisms,

479
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:32,080
who my support system was reading, finding things to do with my time, you know,

480
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:39,980
instead of being home and working in the yard and constantly drinking vodka while I was doing it.

481
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:43,780
You know, for me, it was learning other things I could do.

482
00:36:43,780 --> 00:36:46,580
So it didn't, you know, it's like the oral fixation of drinking something.

483
00:36:46,580 --> 00:36:49,380
So like I drink seltzer waters now.

484
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:53,280
But then I also had the piece of I realized I was depressed while I wasn't suicidal.

485
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:59,680
I was depressed. And so all I was doing was masking those emotions with alcohol.

486
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,580
And, you know, through one on one counseling, personal counseling on my own,

487
00:37:03,580 --> 00:37:11,980
I learned that there were some things I hadn't unpacked and hadn't really dealt with from, you know, bad calls years ago that.

488
00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:21,380
I just, you know, the standard macho firefighter paramedic thing you can see and do everything that doesn't affect you and you put up that shield.

489
00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:26,080
All that all that shield is doing is keeping it all in.

490
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,180
You know, that shield is not keeping anything else from entering.

491
00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:31,680
It's just holding it in. It's kind of like an asthmatic.

492
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,980
They can't, you know, exhale the air. They don't get in the air in.

493
00:37:35,980 --> 00:37:49,280
It's getting the air out. So it was just learning about all those different things and unpacking what actually was bothering me and realizing that I had unhealthy relationships with alcohol.

494
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:55,680
And, you know, like I said, women years ago and all of those things so that I can concentrate and put first things first,

495
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,380
which is building relationships with my family and the people around me.

496
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:03,380
Beautiful. Well, you mentioned about entering the fire service.

497
00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:06,880
What was some of the career calls in that first department that you worked for?

498
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:13,280
Doesn't have to be the worst thing you've seen, just career calls, things that you remember and look back on.

499
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:22,980
Yeah, you know, one of the big ones I that really still I still think about today actually happened here in North Carolina.

500
00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:26,980
You know, we got called me and Debbie and I still keep in touch with her.

501
00:38:26,980 --> 00:38:30,180
She doesn't work in this area anymore. But we were on an ambulance.

502
00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:39,080
We get called to a rollover and we get there and there's six young people, teenagers scattered across the road.

503
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:45,180
And we get out of the ambulance and, you know, there's there's teenagers doing CPR on their friends.

504
00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:47,880
And and there's just two of us there for the moment.

505
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,680
Even though there's more people come, there's two of us there for the moment.

506
00:38:50,680 --> 00:39:04,980
And no matter no amount of triage training, right, can prepare you for a situation like that because, you know.

507
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:08,980
It's impossible for emotions not to be involved in that.

508
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:12,480
And so that's one of those calls that I've stuck with me.

509
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,280
I'll tell you why it stuck with me about five or six years after that call.

510
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:29,880
My wife and I were sitting in Applebee's in a nearby town and the waitress walked up and she said, do you remember me?

511
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:39,580
I said no. And she described that call and she said, you found me laying in the wood line.

512
00:39:39,580 --> 00:39:45,680
I said, are you kidding me? And she remembered and she remembered my face and, you know, I wear glasses now.

513
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,380
I didn't wear glasses at the time and like all these different things.

514
00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:55,080
And she remembered that. And for whatever reason, that call has just stuck with me.

515
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:05,280
I think because part of it was having an interaction with that young lady years after and knowing that, you know.

516
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,380
Well, I don't look at it as a major impact on her life.

517
00:40:07,380 --> 00:40:14,880
She absolutely does. And so, you know, that's one of the things I feel like numerous calls like that.

518
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,380
That, you know, over the years, you just you think about it.

519
00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:19,780
I don't want to think about that. And you just start drinking.

520
00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:24,580
And then you and then for me, it just kept going on and on and on and on.

521
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:29,280
That's beautiful to hear, though. I'm assuming that all those teenagers made it if you got traumatic cardiac arrest.

522
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:37,680
So for that one success story, that one life to be changed positively must have definitely taken the sting out of that little bit.

523
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:51,780
Yeah, a number of those those young people didn't make it that night. And, you know, to know that there was some good that came out of it.

524
00:40:51,780 --> 00:41:00,280
You know, it's positive. But it's one of those situations where.

525
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,280
Anytime somebody says, you know, anytime you meet people, they're like, oh, what's the worst thing you've ever seen?

526
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,580
And, you know, I despise that question like everybody else does.

527
00:41:08,580 --> 00:41:13,780
And I don't typically talk about that call. I usually dodge the question.

528
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:24,180
But when you when you ask it in relation to where I am today and the lowest point, that call definitely had an effect on both those things.

529
00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:27,080
Absolutely. Well, walk me through then.

530
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,480
I mean, you you go empty, you go parametric, you go fire.

531
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:37,280
How did you find yourself as the kind of like backup mayor and get into the kind of political side of things?

532
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,680
Yeah. So in the town where I currently live.

533
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,980
So I actually live in a city called Boiling Spring Lakes, which is just outside Southport, but we have a Southport milling address.

534
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:50,880
So I always tell people, you know, it's like living in a suburb of Cleveland.

535
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,780
And so, yeah, so I've been a first responder for a number of years.

536
00:41:55,780 --> 00:42:01,080
And I had actually grown frustrated at one point working in the fire department.

537
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:11,480
And I know all these things that we need. And when you go into budget time, you learn, oh, we're not getting half of what we need or want.

538
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,480
But there's all this money. Why can't we get it right?

539
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:20,680
And so in my mind, I wanted to because I don't work in the city I live in.

540
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,780
I wanted to help other people that way. I wanted to understand it more.

541
00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:30,280
So so I ran for city council here and I won the first election.

542
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:38,880
I was in 2017 and then I was appointed as the mayor pro tem that same year because the council itself appoints the pro tem.

543
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,280
So I was the mayor pro tem and I worked through some things.

544
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:51,280
I learned that a lot of the things I thought I knew I didn't one being how a government budget works and how there's not an unlimited pot of money.

545
00:42:51,280 --> 00:43:00,280
And when you're sitting, I've always told everybody I'm so grateful for the experiences I've had in elected office because I understand both sides of the desk now.

546
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,680
It's made me a better presenter when I'm presenting to a board about things that we need and what they cost and why it's important.

547
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:12,680
And it's also made me understand prioritization in the fire department.

548
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:20,680
And I think explaining it to my peers as well, because when you're going through a budget process, whether it's a small municipality or a large one,

549
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:28,280
there's a ton of people coming out with their hands out and what they want is absolutely the most important thing to them.

550
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:35,980
Just like when somebody calls 911, no matter how we perceive their emergency or their issue, it's an emergency to them.

551
00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:42,780
And it should be treated as such. And so, you know, having to learn to prioritize what parks and rec needs versus the fire department,

552
00:43:42,780 --> 00:43:47,880
both are important or roads and sewer and water and all those things.

553
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,380
So I found myself on town council. It was a great experience.

554
00:43:52,380 --> 00:44:00,380
We got a lot of things done in the town. And so while I was doing that, I have my own children who go to public school here.

555
00:44:00,380 --> 00:44:05,480
And somebody said to me, you know, you're young, you're energetic.

556
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:11,080
We think you would really have a positive influence on the county school board.

557
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,480
And I thought long and hard about it because I've always been interested in politics.

558
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:20,280
I was president of a political club when I was at the University of Akron.

559
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:25,680
And I've always been interested. I never saw myself as the actual politician.

560
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:31,380
I saw myself more as behind the scenes, kind of like Karl Rove kind of guy.

561
00:44:31,380 --> 00:44:35,380
And so, man, school board. So I took some time and I prayed about it.

562
00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:45,080
And I ran a three way primary against an incumbent in 2020 and I won that primary.

563
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,480
So I was the party's nominee here in my county for the Republican Party.

564
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,880
I did not have a challenger in the general election.

565
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:59,580
So I cruised on in to my first term on the school board and my peers elected me as the vice chairman.

566
00:44:59,580 --> 00:45:05,180
And then COVID happened. So I've gotten the lead through crisis twice now in political office.

567
00:45:05,180 --> 00:45:12,280
The first one was on city council when Hurricane Florence came and it busted a dam in our small town

568
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:21,980
and having to go through all that and the floods and the broken roads and actually walked home from my wife's uncle's house

569
00:45:21,980 --> 00:45:25,180
after that storm because I needed to get back to be with my town and my people.

570
00:45:25,180 --> 00:45:29,880
And so then COVID happens. And so now I have another crisis.

571
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,980
Everybody knows that being on a school board during COVID-19 was a nightmare.

572
00:45:33,980 --> 00:45:38,880
It absolutely was a crisis. There's a lot of decisions that we were forced to make with the information

573
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:46,180
we had at the time that I probably wouldn't make today. But again, you know, that's one of the things I've learned

574
00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:50,180
is that, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking, we've all done it for athletic events,

575
00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:57,480
but we can't judge decisions made in the past based on the information we have today.

576
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,780
And so differently just to jump in because I think what we can do though is learn.

577
00:46:01,780 --> 00:46:05,980
We can go. OK, that was the choice. Those are the choices that were made.

578
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:08,880
As you said, I disagree with that. I disagree with them very early on.

579
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,480
You know, I listen. We all listen. I think the first few weeks everyone was on the same page.

580
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:19,280
But what's really the, you know, irresponsible thing is after we came out,

581
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,880
the people that made those decisions like we don't want to talk about it anymore, you know,

582
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,880
so I think there's a great opportunity to learn.

583
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:32,180
So as a member of the school board, excuse me, another flu, you know, let's call this one Sebastian comes in.

584
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:37,280
You know, what would you do differently this time based on what we learned from the last time?

585
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,780
So I live in a very conservative area in southeastern North Carolina.

586
00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:44,280
So let me preface it by saying that.

587
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:50,880
But there was a lot of decisions that were made because we thought at the time

588
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,480
and still potentially some of it today is that we would lose federal and state funding

589
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,680
if we didn't follow the rules that were being handed down to us.

590
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:03,680
Now, if you remember back when this first started, we had, you know,

591
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,680
we had a Republican president at the time in North Carolina.

592
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,680
We had a Democrat governor. So we were getting conflicting rules and orders from there.

593
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,480
So the biggest thing was about the masks.

594
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,480
So at the time, you know, you had to wear the mask because the state said we had to.

595
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,480
And our understanding is that we will lose funding from the state.

596
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,680
And, you know, if we lost state funding, we would have to close schools.

597
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,480
That's how paramount state funding in North Carolina is for public schools.

598
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,580
So we made all these decisions because of money.

599
00:47:34,580 --> 00:47:40,680
So that's the point I'm trying to make is we made these decisions because of the fear of losing money.

600
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,980
Meanwhile, we have lost.

601
00:47:45,980 --> 00:47:53,580
Years and potentially a large portion of a generation in the public education

602
00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:58,380
because of not only masking when it comes to phonics and reading,

603
00:47:58,380 --> 00:48:06,680
but also because we had remote learning for a period of time where students were on their computers trying to learn at home.

604
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,080
I know that was a complete failure in my own home.

605
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,880
And I'm here every almost every day with the amazing schedule I have at the department I work for.

606
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:21,880
So knowing that we couldn't do it good, I can only imagine how difficult it was for dual working households.

607
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,980
You know, our area has a rural aspect to our county as well.

608
00:48:24,980 --> 00:48:26,580
That doesn't have high speed Internet.

609
00:48:26,580 --> 00:48:31,280
So we didn't work through the challenges of saying you have to do school on a computer at home.

610
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:32,480
But by the way, you don't have Internet.

611
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,980
So we had to work through all that and get them Internet and hotspots and all that.

612
00:48:35,980 --> 00:48:41,380
So I absolutely, you know, I look back on this now, getting back to your original question about what would I have done differently?

613
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:44,780
I would have gotten us back to in-person faster than we did.

614
00:48:44,780 --> 00:48:46,780
And I'll say this. We were in-person learning.

615
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:49,480
We were one of the first ones in the state of North Carolina to go back to in-person learning.

616
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,580
I'm proud of that. But I think we could have done it faster.

617
00:48:52,580 --> 00:48:56,980
The second thing is the masking aspect of it.

618
00:48:56,980 --> 00:49:02,080
You know, as time was going on, we were learning that those masks did absolutely nothing.

619
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:16,180
And so, you know, part of the frustration I feel about it now is it created so much distrust in experts because the experts became politicized.

620
00:49:16,180 --> 00:49:21,580
And so the masking thing and the reading, you know, I have an eight-year-old now.

621
00:49:21,580 --> 00:49:22,780
She's in second grade.

622
00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:32,280
So she was wearing a mask and trying to learn how to read and learn how to talk and sound out letters and pronounce words while not being able to read the lips, which is so important when it comes to phonics.

623
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:44,280
And so both of those things and the lasting effect it's going to have on our children and their learning and potentially even into adulthood,

624
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,580
I still lose sleep over that at night.

625
00:49:47,580 --> 00:49:52,480
Again, we know much more about it now than we did then.

626
00:49:52,480 --> 00:50:04,680
So it's not regret, but it's definitely an experience that I'm going to look back on in the future and say we can do this better.

627
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,280
Yeah, I mean, this is this is the value in the conversation.

628
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,480
I don't have a time machine. We can't go back. We can't change the way things were done.

629
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,480
I was very fortunate. We were in Florida and we were hailed as irresponsible and all this stuff.

630
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,180
I would argue we did it probably one of the best of any state in the country.

631
00:50:20,180 --> 00:50:23,380
We shut everything down and credit to Governor DeSantis.

632
00:50:23,380 --> 00:50:26,580
I don't agree with a lot of stuff he does, but I'll give him credit for this.

633
00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:29,480
And he's very pro-firefighter as well.

634
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,280
But he just opened the faucet. All right. Open it a little bit.

635
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:34,980
How are we doing? We're still good?

636
00:50:34,980 --> 00:50:38,180
Okay. Open a little bit more restaurants, gyms, blah, blah, blah.

637
00:50:38,180 --> 00:50:43,180
And so it was excellent. And my son, I think, missed the very end of his middle school.

638
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:45,580
I think it was. And then the school opened up.

639
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:47,180
He was there day one of his high school.

640
00:50:47,180 --> 00:50:50,680
So it was really only a long summer that they missed in Florida.

641
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,480
But when I look at especially other states, these children that graduated,

642
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:05,580
they have these bizarre outbreak Hollywood esque, you know, graduation ceremonies driving by and sticking a hand out and grabbing the,

643
00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:11,080
you know, the diploma and then now go home.

644
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,880
We'll just give you money. There's no jobs. Just go home and stay home.

645
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,880
And then a year and a half later, what's wrong with you? Go get a job.

646
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,280
You know what I mean? So that's the generation.

647
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,180
I really think of the worst end of the stick.

648
00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:25,280
The kids that were in school. Absolutely.

649
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,580
I mean, that home homeschooling thing.

650
00:51:27,580 --> 00:51:32,680
It fits some people. But my son emotionally, it actually suited him being home for a bit.

651
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,980
He was kind of going through some stuff then and it worked out then.

652
00:51:35,980 --> 00:51:39,980
But like you said, the ability to access a computer or parents even home.

653
00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:43,280
Do you have Internet? All these things are the massive effect.

654
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:50,480
But the kids that graduated that we said when you turn 18, now you're in the workforce and there was no workforce.

655
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,580
And we did nothing to lift them up and empower them and get them back on that treadmill.

656
00:51:55,580 --> 00:51:58,980
I think those are the ones we need to worry about the most.

657
00:51:58,980 --> 00:52:06,880
Absolutely. And you know, the big thing, I love talking about triumph and success coming out of a crisis.

658
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,480
And so there's two things I want to point out. And it goes back to what you were just saying is,

659
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,780
you know, the very worst decision is no decision.

660
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:18,680
And so, you know, I always like to point that out when people bring up, you know, decision we had to make in the past.

661
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:24,380
And the second thing is talking about triumph is we learned during COVID here in Brunswick County

662
00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:28,380
that we were able to do graduation in our football stadiums of our high schools.

663
00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:32,580
And we still do that today because the community and the students love it so much.

664
00:52:32,580 --> 00:52:36,880
So we were forced outside during COVID.

665
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:44,880
And then here we find this amazing opportunity for students to graduate and have that school spirit on their football field.

666
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,980
And so we're able to do because we're in southeastern North Carolina.

667
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:55,980
But that's one thing that came out of COVID that we've stayed with is that, you know,

668
00:52:55,980 --> 00:53:00,280
we do graduations on the football field and there's still little things today.

669
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:05,880
A parent will call me or I'll talk to a staff member and they'll be like, why don't we do this anymore?

670
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:13,680
And when I look back, it was like a COVID decision reduction measure that just got forgotten about.

671
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,780
And so we are actively like every day, my colleagues and I, anything that was like pre-COVID,

672
00:53:18,780 --> 00:53:23,580
making sure it's put back in place so we don't have lasting impacts on future students

673
00:53:23,580 --> 00:53:27,480
and future generations that had absolutely nothing to do with COVID at the time.

674
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:33,880
Yeah. For God's sake, remove those stickers on the floor and get rid of those perspex screens in the shops and restaurants.

675
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,680
Yeah, those have been gone for a while.

676
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:41,880
But, you know, it's like so we have free breakfast and lunch in our school system here.

677
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:47,680
And some schools were still eating in the classrooms just because.

678
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:52,980
And so, you know, we let them know, look, go back to eating in the cafeteria and all those things.

679
00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:59,280
And they all did for lunch and some of us still eat their breakfast in the classroom just because I feel like it's better

680
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,580
for the students in their small groups or whatever to do that.

681
00:54:01,580 --> 00:54:04,380
But I'm just giving them that freedom of flexibility back.

682
00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:09,080
So it's an experience I don't ever want to live through again.

683
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,080
But I'm thankful again for what I was able to learn from it.

684
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:22,080
And I think our community, our country are much stronger today because of some of the things we learned.

685
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,380
Absolutely. Well, I think it's important that we revisit that and pull these lessons out.

686
00:54:26,380 --> 00:54:31,380
So I kind of stopped you there. So to carry on with your political journey up to today.

687
00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:37,280
Yeah. So when I was first elected to the school board, my colleagues graciously appointed me to be the vice chair.

688
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:42,480
So I went from being basically the vice mayor to being the vice chair of the school board.

689
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,580
And so I did that for one year.

690
00:54:45,580 --> 00:54:49,680
And then the chairman of the school board decided that he didn't want to be the chairman anymore.

691
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:54,780
And my colleagues picked me to be the chairman of the school board.

692
00:54:54,780 --> 00:54:59,980
And I was the chairman of the school board for three consecutive years now.

693
00:54:59,980 --> 00:55:04,180
And I still currently am. And then I just won reelection last Tuesday.

694
00:55:04,180 --> 00:55:07,880
So we will continue this journey and serving the students.

695
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,080
I got to tell you, I have a deep love for young people.

696
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:19,080
And I know that there was a lot of people externally that had a lot to do with my success as a young man,

697
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:24,080
as an adolescent, and then making me who the man I am today.

698
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:30,080
And so I want to make sure that we are I can be a part of not only making my own children successful,

699
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,280
but helping other children be successful, too.

700
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:40,880
And one thing I've really learned in the last couple of years is the baggage and just the things that kids show up with today.

701
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:46,180
These these young people are faced with things that you and I never had to see and never had to experience.

702
00:55:46,180 --> 00:55:50,280
And so they don't always show up present and prepared to learn every day.

703
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:59,880
And so I'm just glad to partner with agencies like the Alliance for Father Friendly Schools and the Watch Dogs program,

704
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:04,680
getting more male volunteers and dads in elementary schools,

705
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,080
because that's where a lot of young boys don't see positive male role models.

706
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,380
There's a lot of fatherless children out there.

707
00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:15,180
And by no means am I able to be a father to everybody's children.

708
00:56:15,180 --> 00:56:23,880
But if I can just get in there and have a positive influence on one additional kid other than my own, it's worth it.

709
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,480
I volunteered for what they call Morning Mile in my son's elementary.

710
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,880
They would literally do laps before school. The brilliant program.

711
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,580
I used to do the career day. And even then I would I would bring all my gear, the stuff and play videos.

712
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:41,480
But then I would talk about kindness and compassion and teamwork rather than,

713
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:48,380
oh, you've got to pass a standardized test and elementary school kids don't give a shit about your psychological test.

714
00:56:48,380 --> 00:56:52,380
But it was amazing for that reason. You know, just and I was known as Ty's dad.

715
00:56:52,380 --> 00:56:54,580
I always joke with my son like I've never had my own name.

716
00:56:54,580 --> 00:56:57,680
I've always been Ty's dad. But it's so important.

717
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:03,880
And if you look at even, you know, the problems in the first responder profession, especially the law enforcement,

718
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:08,580
I talk about this all the time. Why do we have so many gangs, so much homelessness,

719
00:57:08,580 --> 00:57:13,480
you know, all these people that are struggling when they're, you know, very, very young.

720
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:17,980
People will point out it's because of the broken homes was that what they say it takes a village.

721
00:57:17,980 --> 00:57:23,080
So if this home is broken for whatever reason, be there, be a mentor in your community.

722
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,080
So I couldn't agree more if we really want to change the world as they say,

723
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:32,580
start a home, but then step outside your front door and find someone else to help as well.

724
00:57:32,580 --> 00:57:36,880
Well, and so here's my bombshell to the comment you just made about broken homes.

725
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,680
My oldest daughter does not live with us because I had her before I was married.

726
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:47,780
And so my 14 year old daughter, who's a freshman in high school, who I have a great relationship with,

727
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:49,880
you know, doesn't live with us. So she's part of a broken home.

728
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:56,580
And when we co-parent her mom and stepdad and my wife and I all have a great relationship now.

729
00:57:56,580 --> 00:58:01,580
It wasn't always that way. But we are actually at a point now where we can go on a joint family vacations

730
00:58:01,580 --> 00:58:05,280
and all kinds of awesome things. I love to celebrate.

731
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,480
But Zoe, you know, she's 14. She's doing very well.

732
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,980
And you're right. It does take a village. And Zoe knows that everybody loves her.

733
00:58:14,980 --> 00:58:21,080
And, you know, she's 14, so she was able to handle the conversation, you know, about her mom and I.

734
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:30,580
And so, you know, but a broken home doesn't have to mean a bad path for a child.

735
00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:34,480
And I think that's I guess I hate that excuse a lot of times.

736
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:43,180
I hear people say just like you said, because that's not, you know, a definite equation to being a criminal

737
00:58:43,180 --> 00:58:50,180
or being on drugs or early death. That doesn't have to be part of it. That's an excuse.

738
00:58:50,180 --> 00:58:55,180
That's something somebody says, oh, man, this happened to that person's kid or that.

739
00:58:55,180 --> 00:58:58,680
But they were part of a broken home. No.

740
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:07,880
This is where dedication to your family and dedication just to all things relationship wise, building bridges.

741
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:15,280
Right. And so I defy those odds every day. And people say that to me a lot.

742
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,780
How do you do it? And my wife will tell you it wasn't easy.

743
00:59:19,780 --> 00:59:26,680
You know, Zoe's mom and my wife weren't always on speaking terms.

744
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,780
Zoe's mom and I weren't always on speaking terms.

745
00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:35,280
I got to tell you, I credit the relationship we have today because of Zoe's stepdad.

746
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,480
He's also a firefighter for a living.

747
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:43,080
And he's also the fire chief of their volunteer fire department where they live just a little ways away from me.

748
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,080
And my 14 year old daughter is a junior firefighter.

749
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:52,080
And, you know, her stepdad's giving her that opportunity.

750
00:59:52,080 --> 01:00:02,180
And it's awesome because last year I was able to give Zoe her first fire helmet with her first shield that her stepdad and her mom,

751
01:00:02,180 --> 01:00:04,780
my wife and I all did together for her.

752
01:00:04,780 --> 01:00:11,080
And just to see the joy and the tears run down her face because Zoe was old enough to see the challenges we had over the years.

753
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:19,680
And so, you know, not to get down a rabbit hole with that, but we are a story of success through a broken home.

754
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:26,780
But not because it was the path of least resistance, but because we knew that was our responsibility.

755
01:00:26,780 --> 01:00:29,780
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I mean, I'm remarried.

756
01:00:29,780 --> 01:00:34,980
So, you know, I had a horrendous relationship with my son's mother for a long time.

757
01:00:34,980 --> 01:00:41,980
I've been a foster, a stepdad for my wife's son, you know, when we first met.

758
01:00:41,980 --> 01:00:45,380
And, you know, and it's up to you to swallow your pride.

759
01:00:45,380 --> 01:00:56,280
And even, you know, if it's a one way kind of battering from a parent that maybe is not investing their kindness and compassion the same way that you are,

760
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,680
then you just have to take it on the chin because it's for that child and you have to minimize the damage.

761
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:14,580
But one of the things that I hear from a lot of people that have been in a home and they've lost a parent to whatever or they were adopted or they were fostered or it was addiction is that sense of why wasn't I good enough.

762
01:01:14,580 --> 01:01:21,780
But if you can show a child that even though the relationship dynamic of their parents is not the nuclear ideal,

763
01:01:21,780 --> 01:01:26,980
but they're still loved and they're still safe, then I think you offset most of that.

764
01:01:26,980 --> 01:01:34,880
But if you just out of their life and turn your back or God forbid, they lost him to prison or addiction, you know, that is that is crippling.

765
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:43,980
And in that case, it's people outside of that family that can also step up, you know, whether it's a coach or a teacher or a church leader, whoever it is.

766
01:01:43,980 --> 01:01:52,380
So understanding that, as you said, that's not a foregone conclusion and that we each and every one of us are the solution to this.

767
01:01:52,380 --> 01:02:01,280
And that young man or woman will then find themselves on the path to doing something good in the world rather than being dragged into the bad.

768
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:10,580
Yeah, you know, and it's you know, I can contribute a lot of my relationship failures was always mother probably to my drinking as well.

769
01:02:10,580 --> 01:02:15,080
And a lot of the fights once I was remarried because of my drinking as well.

770
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:23,180
But I always think back and I shuffle when I think about this still to this day is when her mom and I had split up,

771
01:02:23,180 --> 01:02:28,980
I remember saying another man will never be around my daughter.

772
01:02:28,980 --> 01:02:34,380
Man, I felt macho when I said that, right. And I was going to help her by saying that.

773
01:02:34,380 --> 01:02:38,080
And man, how stupid that was to say that.

774
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:44,180
Like, you know, I think back about it now again, I have information today I didn't have at the time and I have life experience.

775
01:02:44,180 --> 01:03:00,380
But I think back of how grateful I am for my wife and for her stepdad for the role they've played in shaping who Zoe is today because it wasn't just her mom and I.

776
01:03:00,380 --> 01:03:09,180
And Zoe spends a lot of time with all of us. And again, she's getting to experience something now as a 14 year old girl,

777
01:03:09,180 --> 01:03:17,080
freshman in high school and a career and technical vocational program at her high school, which is a firefighting program.

778
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,480
And she's loving it. And she's loving life and it's keeping her out of trouble.

779
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:26,980
And she's got goals. And that's not just because of me.

780
01:03:26,980 --> 01:03:32,580
It's because of the village that helped make her the young lady she is today.

781
01:03:32,580 --> 01:03:38,680
Beautiful. One more area staying on education before we go into what you're doing now.

782
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:45,080
I had a guy on the show, Pasi Solberg, and he is from Finland originally, and he's toured the world now.

783
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:49,880
He's based in Australia, but he teaches on the Finnish education model.

784
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:56,480
And when you listen to kind of where their priorities are, they look at the child holistically, like all of the child.

785
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:03,080
They invest in the underserved communities, not penalize them for low test scores.

786
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:09,280
And so and obviously this more recess time, more play involved, less actual hours in the classroom.

787
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:15,080
So a lot of very progressive, yet really kind of old school ways of doing education.

788
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:21,280
And when you look at the actual rankings of the world, Finland is usually number one or right there.

789
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:30,380
So with this kind of lens, when it comes to the schooling, have you had any of these conversations about moving school away from standardized testing

790
01:04:30,380 --> 01:04:35,580
and some of the things that we've just bludgeoned these children with the years now?

791
01:04:35,580 --> 01:04:43,580
Absolutely. Yeah. So in North Carolina, so every state, the public education laws vary a little bit state to state.

792
01:04:43,580 --> 01:04:53,180
North Carolina, the state laws here is heavy testing and heavy academic data collection.

793
01:04:53,180 --> 01:04:59,680
I want to make sure I emphasize the academic data collection piece.

794
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:05,280
And so there is a lot of testing. There's beginning of the year, there's middle of the year, there's end of the year.

795
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,480
Then there's these boxes that every child should fit into.

796
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:14,180
And I always think back to a quote from Jesse Itzler.

797
01:05:14,180 --> 01:05:22,380
You know, he talks about when his son was young and they were trying to diagnose his son with ADHD

798
01:05:22,380 --> 01:05:31,480
or some type of learning disorder because he wasn't meeting the grades that they said that his kids should be meeting.

799
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,480
And he said he would always go into those meetings and say, there's nothing wrong with my son.

800
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,280
Are you telling me he just doesn't get it yet?

801
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:44,880
And that speaks to me. I always think about that when I'm having these conversations.

802
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:50,680
Somebody isn't damaged just because they don't fit into the box the government wants them to fit into.

803
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:56,880
I think of my own, my eight year old daughter who talked late because she had a tongue tie.

804
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:01,780
And so which means her her speech was delayed and her reading was delayed.

805
01:06:01,780 --> 01:06:07,280
And so all of it was a little bit delayed. It doesn't mean that my daughter is broken.

806
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:13,980
And so, you know, we work through all those things with Madeline and she's highly intelligent.

807
01:06:13,980 --> 01:06:22,980
And the other piece of this standardized testing is that it is a snapshot of one period of time of one day.

808
01:06:22,980 --> 01:06:27,780
So even the brightest people in the world have a bad day.

809
01:06:27,780 --> 01:06:41,780
And so you are you put so much weight on this snapshot that it really doesn't benefit the child long term because they end up with these labels moving forward.

810
01:06:41,780 --> 01:06:52,580
So one thing that we've done here in the school district that I'm a part of is while we can't stop doing the testing because it's required by the state,

811
01:06:52,580 --> 01:07:00,480
we can put more emphasis on the actual arithmetic and the educational piece to serve each student.

812
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:05,980
We call it serving the whole student, which is exactly what you were talking about with the finished model is serving the whole student.

813
01:07:05,980 --> 01:07:15,880
Because like we talked about earlier, these kids are showing up with things today that sometimes make them not prepared to be fully present in the classroom.

814
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:33,780
So we do take a whole student approach here in Brunswick County, and one of them is removing the food and securities that some children and families have through our free lunch and breakfast programs for every single student, regardless of socioeconomic status in our county.

815
01:07:33,780 --> 01:07:39,580
Beautiful. When you talk about they don't understand it yet, Jesse, it's this quote.

816
01:07:39,580 --> 01:07:42,880
It reminds me of that series. What to expect when you're expecting.

817
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,780
I was the dad that read all the pregnancy books and all that stuff.

818
01:07:46,780 --> 01:07:55,980
But I remember one of the things that was so powerful is it said, you know, at this age, your child should be able to do this.

819
01:07:55,980 --> 01:07:58,080
Yeah, they might even be able to do this.

820
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:04,180
You know, and it was a scale like, you know, if they're not walking at three years old and yeah, it was definitely a problem.

821
01:08:04,180 --> 01:08:08,280
Something you need to talk about. But, you know, if they're not doing somersaults at three years old, don't worry.

822
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,880
You know, some kids might be able to, but and there was a sliding scale and I love that.

823
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:18,380
My son was quite gifted athletically and he could kick a ball and stuff earlier.

824
01:08:18,380 --> 01:08:24,780
But just like your daughter, when it came to speech and then ultimately reading, he was always behind and he almost failed out.

825
01:08:24,780 --> 01:08:27,680
I think it was fourth grade. We gave him tutors and everything.

826
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:32,580
Now he's all AP classes as a senior in high school, but he's worked his ass off.

827
01:08:32,580 --> 01:08:43,180
But it was also a case of just allowing everything to mature at the unique rates that he himself as an individual was going to mature at physically, mentally, emotionally.

828
01:08:43,180 --> 01:08:49,180
So just like you said, now you cram all these round pegs, you know, in a square hole, you know,

829
01:08:49,180 --> 01:08:56,180
and you wonder why it's not a successful model versus create an environment not only for learning, but I think what's missing and it's not because of the teachers.

830
01:08:56,180 --> 01:09:01,480
We have some great people, but giving them the environment to be excited about learning.

831
01:09:01,480 --> 01:09:09,380
I always tell people I was a straight C student in school and a straight A student in medic school and fire school because I understood it made sense.

832
01:09:09,380 --> 01:09:15,780
And there was a why that if you just all because I said so because it's for the test, that's not igniting passion,

833
01:09:15,780 --> 01:09:22,380
you know, in a young person to really want to learn to reach for a book to find out more.

834
01:09:22,380 --> 01:09:29,080
Yeah, I firmly believe that the rigid structure sometimes sets our kids back as well.

835
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:33,580
So. You remember the times where you learn what type of learning you are,

836
01:09:33,580 --> 01:09:39,980
whether you're auditory or visual or tactile with your hands.

837
01:09:39,980 --> 01:09:48,080
And there's not a lot of opportunity in classrooms to have all those different variables or learning types sometimes.

838
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:58,680
And I think. Students are more aware today that I was when I was in school of what the testing means and what their numbers are

839
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,180
and where they're at compared to their peers.

840
01:10:01,180 --> 01:10:03,580
And I think that creates a lot of anxiety.

841
01:10:03,580 --> 01:10:05,380
I know it did for my middle daughter who's 11.

842
01:10:05,380 --> 01:10:11,780
And so, you know, the opportunity a couple years ago came for her to test for a IG

843
01:10:11,780 --> 01:10:16,780
and she already had horrible test anxiety from standardized testing from the beginning,

844
01:10:16,780 --> 01:10:18,480
middle and end of the year.

845
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,980
And it was paper comes home and she gives it to me.

846
01:10:21,980 --> 01:10:24,080
She was in third or fourth grade at the time.

847
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:29,680
And she was like, Dad, this is another test I have to take to be a IG.

848
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:34,380
And I took it to my wife. I said, I don't think she should take this test.

849
01:10:34,380 --> 01:10:36,480
And, you know, she was an A.B. student.

850
01:10:36,480 --> 01:10:43,580
She was doing well in school. But I saw the anxiety that even handing me that paper.

851
01:10:43,580 --> 01:10:49,680
I just saw what I did to my daughter. So we had a discussion with her and what it meant.

852
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:58,480
And we determined that her taking that test to maybe be a IG,

853
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:03,980
the risk benefit analysis here in our household did not turn out to be one

854
01:11:03,980 --> 01:11:06,580
which we were going to take that risk and make her take that test

855
01:11:06,580 --> 01:11:07,680
because she wouldn't have done well on it.

856
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:13,780
And then she would have came home, you know, with a depressed attitude of,

857
01:11:13,780 --> 01:11:15,380
I didn't do well on it.

858
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:18,980
Maybe I didn't meet this expectation from my parents or maybe I'm not good enough

859
01:11:18,980 --> 01:11:24,180
or whatever it may have been. And so she's still an A.B. student.

860
01:11:24,180 --> 01:11:26,280
I still feel like she's challenged in the classroom.

861
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,680
I don't think that held her back from anything.

862
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,780
And so, you know, that's the decisions we had to make as a parent.

863
01:11:32,780 --> 01:11:36,580
And I always tell parents, you know, being on the school board

864
01:11:36,580 --> 01:11:42,180
and having children in the school, which I think is very important to give that

865
01:11:42,180 --> 01:11:45,680
voice in the room for parents, is I always tell everybody

866
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:47,880
you have to determine what is right for your own family.

867
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,980
Don't look at everybody else. Stop looking at everybody else.

868
01:11:51,980 --> 01:11:55,180
Don't go to college because everybody else says you should go to college.

869
01:11:55,180 --> 01:12:00,080
You know, welders are making 90 grand a year right out of a welding program right now.

870
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:01,080
Actually, they're probably making more.

871
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:04,380
That was a couple of years old statistic.

872
01:12:04,380 --> 01:12:07,580
You know, me, I dropped out of college the first time,

873
01:12:07,580 --> 01:12:12,380
but I now hold a bachelor's degree and I'm currently working on my master's online.

874
01:12:12,380 --> 01:12:17,280
So just because you don't do it when you're 18 doesn't mean you can't do it.

875
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:22,380
And formulate your own picture and vision of success

876
01:12:22,380 --> 01:12:27,780
based on what is good for you and not what everybody else says you should.

877
01:12:27,780 --> 01:12:31,780
Absolutely. Well, I want to kind of move over to where you are now.

878
01:12:31,780 --> 01:12:35,480
So let's talk about the unique kind of role that you hold

879
01:12:35,480 --> 01:12:38,380
because you touched on earlier about being in law enforcement as well.

880
01:12:38,380 --> 01:12:42,780
So talk to me about the actual kind of universal public safety

881
01:12:42,780 --> 01:12:46,380
officer versus traditional, you know, law or police fire him.

882
01:12:46,380 --> 01:12:48,780
Excuse me, law or EMS.

883
01:12:48,780 --> 01:12:55,480
Yeah, so I work kind of at a unicorn agency.

884
01:12:55,480 --> 01:13:00,080
So to give you the geography of it, we're a barrier island off the coast

885
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,980
of southeastern North Carolina that you can see from the mainland,

886
01:13:03,980 --> 01:13:05,680
but there is no bridge to the island.

887
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,480
So I don't want to get there by boat.

888
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:12,280
And so and the ferry is a passenger only ferry.

889
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:13,880
It is not you don't take your car with you.

890
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:20,780
So the island is about seven miles long and couple miles wide.

891
01:13:20,780 --> 01:13:24,580
And it's mostly golf carts over there.

892
01:13:24,580 --> 01:13:25,580
There is some vehicles.

893
01:13:25,580 --> 01:13:28,880
So you have the public works vehicle, you know, the village vehicles,

894
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,380
you know, the fire emergency services vehicles and then contractors

895
01:13:32,380 --> 01:13:35,580
are allowed to have whatever equipment they need to fulfill

896
01:13:35,580 --> 01:13:39,080
whatever their assignment is being a contractor.

897
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,780
So it's unique in that aspect.

898
01:13:41,780 --> 01:13:46,080
The other unique aspect of where I work is we're a true public safety agency.

899
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:51,780
So we are certified in EMS, either EMT or paramedic.

900
01:13:51,780 --> 01:13:54,180
We're firefighters and we're also police officers.

901
01:13:54,180 --> 01:13:58,680
And that varies a little bit on different shift make-ups

902
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,780
about how many paramedics there is or this that.

903
01:14:02,780 --> 01:14:08,280
And so the most unique part of it is we are a public safety agency

904
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:09,880
that does paramedic level transport.

905
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:14,680
So there's a lot of agencies out there that have like fire police together

906
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:16,680
where you have a primary role.

907
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:20,380
And if they need you, you can do the other one kind of thing.

908
01:14:20,380 --> 01:14:26,780
And then obviously we know that EMS or fire based EMS is pretty common

909
01:14:26,780 --> 01:14:29,080
across the country in a lot of areas.

910
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,980
But having all three together is unique.

911
01:14:31,980 --> 01:14:33,780
So, yeah, we do all three.

912
01:14:33,780 --> 01:14:38,580
I'm a lieutenant, which is like the shift commander role still kind of a company officer.

913
01:14:38,580 --> 01:14:42,280
I have a sergeant that works just below me as well.

914
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:48,780
And so we have six person shifts and we're in charge of all

915
01:14:48,780 --> 01:14:51,580
of the emergency response on the island.

916
01:14:51,580 --> 01:14:54,580
And so everybody's a police officer on my shift.

917
01:14:54,580 --> 01:14:57,980
And so the way I do our schedule is, you know,

918
01:14:57,980 --> 01:15:00,680
it's two people assigned to each thing, so two on the ambulance,

919
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,580
two on the fire engine and two on patrol.

920
01:15:03,580 --> 01:15:06,780
But when there's a call, I always tell everybody it is the,

921
01:15:06,780 --> 01:15:11,280
it is organized chaos because, you know, you have, you know,

922
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,080
one guy coming off the ambulance to grab the aerial.

923
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,780
And, you know, you have police officers potentially if they have

924
01:15:18,780 --> 01:15:21,780
to pass the station grabbing a second out pumper

925
01:15:21,780 --> 01:15:25,180
or the police officers are getting there first and putting on their turnout gear

926
01:15:25,180 --> 01:15:28,380
and everybody's sitting there watching going, what's going on here?

927
01:15:28,380 --> 01:15:31,480
But, you know, I always like to give the joke because I do all the jobs.

928
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:33,780
I can kind of joke both ways.

929
01:15:33,780 --> 01:15:38,780
At our department, the police officers don't park the police vehicle right in the way.

930
01:15:38,780 --> 01:15:40,980
They at least don't, they at least get out of the way, right?

931
01:15:40,980 --> 01:15:42,180
Because they know better.

932
01:15:42,180 --> 01:15:47,880
Yeah. And, you know, and then obviously, you know,

933
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,380
our ambulance doesn't always have to wait around the corner

934
01:15:50,380 --> 01:15:51,880
for the scene to be safe, right?

935
01:15:51,880 --> 01:16:02,280
So it's, I like to punch, you know, poke a little fun and pick up both sides with that.

936
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:06,680
What about transport? Do you have an actual hospital on the island too?

937
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,280
No. So I'm glad you asked that.

938
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,580
So we load the patient up on our ambulance and we drive them

939
01:16:12,580 --> 01:16:16,680
from wherever the scene incident location is to the marina.

940
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:18,880
We put them onto the ferry.

941
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:23,380
We ride with them just on the ferry with the, you know, they're on the stretcher.

942
01:16:23,380 --> 01:16:25,680
We have all our bags and stuff with us.

943
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:28,880
We're a little bit more mobile than your standard ambulance because we do this.

944
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:31,080
And then we ride the ferry over to the mainland

945
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:35,880
and then we transfer care to a paramedic level ambulance on the mainland,

946
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,980
either municipal fire-based EMS system or the county system.

947
01:16:39,980 --> 01:16:43,780
So that is for what you would be, you know, your non-emergency type transports.

948
01:16:43,780 --> 01:16:48,180
Anything emergent, you've flown off the island or we work with the Coast Guard,

949
01:16:48,180 --> 01:16:49,180
you know, weather permitting.

950
01:16:49,180 --> 01:16:54,280
If the helicopter can't fly, the Coast Guard will come over and get us as well.

951
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,980
How vulnerable are you to hurricanes when they blow through?

952
01:16:57,980 --> 01:17:03,880
Very vulnerable because, you know, we're surrounded by water on all sides.

953
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:08,380
And anything above a three, they evacuate the whole island.

954
01:17:08,380 --> 01:17:11,280
We don't even stay.

955
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:16,780
So Hurricane Florence was the one that devastated the town I live in here,

956
01:17:16,780 --> 01:17:19,380
was supposed to be a four, I believe, when it made landfall.

957
01:17:19,380 --> 01:17:20,480
It turned out it wasn't.

958
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:22,380
It was more of a rain event than it was a flood event.

959
01:17:22,380 --> 01:17:25,180
But, you know, mandatory evacuation.

960
01:17:25,180 --> 01:17:29,380
There was no essential services on the island and then we go back.

961
01:17:29,380 --> 01:17:33,780
That was a unique situation because, you know, here I was the mayor of Pro Tem.

962
01:17:33,780 --> 01:17:36,280
I had Hurricane Florence here in southeast North Carolina,

963
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:37,280
it was almost like two storms.

964
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:39,780
You had the windstorm that came in as a category one.

965
01:17:39,780 --> 01:17:41,380
There was like a 12-hour lull.

966
01:17:41,380 --> 01:17:44,280
During that time, my wife's aunt and uncle called me and said,

967
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,880
hey, can you come help us cut a tree off the house?

968
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:49,880
So I went over there and during that time the rain and the flooding started

969
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:51,480
and I couldn't get home.

970
01:17:51,480 --> 01:17:56,980
And so a couple days later, you know, hey, we're going back to the island for work.

971
01:17:56,980 --> 01:18:01,780
And so we get back to the island and we hit a Commodeer, a kayak,

972
01:18:01,780 --> 01:18:05,880
and a John boat that was not fire department assets

973
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:10,580
and paddle our way to the fire station through debris and all that kind of stuff.

974
01:18:10,580 --> 01:18:13,980
And, you know, so that's one of the things that's unique is, you know,

975
01:18:13,980 --> 01:18:17,580
we potentially wouldn't be there for that situation.

976
01:18:17,580 --> 01:18:19,480
And I think there's only one or two people that stayed on the island.

977
01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:22,280
But yeah, super unique situation.

978
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:23,680
I love where I work.

979
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:28,080
I think the thing I love the most about it is the year-round population,

980
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,580
the residents there, it's very small.

981
01:18:31,580 --> 01:18:36,880
So you absolutely can have a very robust community policing model

982
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:38,880
where you know everybody.

983
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:42,680
That's why I'm so passionate about building relationships with people on a good day.

984
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:46,480
It's when a bad day does come, you already have that relationship with them.

985
01:18:46,480 --> 01:18:49,180
And that can be across all three things.

986
01:18:49,180 --> 01:18:52,280
You know, EMS, police, and fire.

987
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:55,980
But one of the things that makes it very difficult working in that situation is

988
01:18:55,980 --> 01:18:58,380
we have to artificially create so many experiences.

989
01:18:58,380 --> 01:19:05,180
So what I always tell everybody and one of my frustrations with fire service training is

990
01:19:05,180 --> 01:19:09,780
that I've sat in class and I have relationships with all the big name fire instructors.

991
01:19:09,780 --> 01:19:12,780
You know, I've met a ton of them and I've learned a lot from them.

992
01:19:12,780 --> 01:19:18,780
But so many times we talk about tactics and response and all of the things

993
01:19:18,780 --> 01:19:21,680
like the big fire departments do it.

994
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,680
There's much fewer large urban fire departments in this country

995
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:28,280
than there are smaller volunteer fire departments.

996
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:33,780
And so what I always tell the people I work with and my guys is the expectations

997
01:19:33,780 --> 01:19:40,080
of the Village of Baldhead Island Fire Department is the exact same as the FDNY

998
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,080
or the Ocala Fire Department.

999
01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:47,280
The difference is we have a bigger challenge because we don't go to as many fires.

1000
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:54,980
We have to artificially create so many experiences to stay proficient on our skills.

1001
01:19:54,980 --> 01:19:58,980
And so, and that's why it's so important for us to send people outside the training

1002
01:19:58,980 --> 01:20:02,380
so they can not only network with other people, but they can get the training

1003
01:20:02,380 --> 01:20:07,980
from outside our island because if you continuously train just inside your agency,

1004
01:20:07,980 --> 01:20:11,980
you reach a point where you've learned all you can based on the experiences

1005
01:20:11,980 --> 01:20:14,480
and the knowledge of that one group of people.

1006
01:20:14,480 --> 01:20:18,880
And if you're not injecting other knowledge, you're actually not getting better.

1007
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:23,080
So that's almost like a whole other conversation for a different day,

1008
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,580
fire department training, but I'm super passionate about it.

1009
01:20:26,580 --> 01:20:28,480
You know, if you ask my coworkers, they would probably tell you I'm a little

1010
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:34,380
over the top sometimes, but complacency is a real thing and combating that

1011
01:20:34,380 --> 01:20:41,480
at a small agency that doesn't go to a lot of fires is really a big challenge.

1012
01:20:41,480 --> 01:20:47,180
My last place was a small agency responsible for, you know, a high, high target hazard

1013
01:20:47,180 --> 01:20:51,780
in the US, but complacency was a thing, you know, lack of standards was a thing.

1014
01:20:51,780 --> 01:20:55,280
And don't get me wrong, there were some great firefighters within that department,

1015
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:59,880
but it's, you know, if it's never happened, it's not going to happen rather than

1016
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:02,780
if it hasn't happened, understanding the law of probability,

1017
01:21:02,780 --> 01:21:05,380
it's more likely to happen the next time, you know.

1018
01:21:05,380 --> 01:21:10,080
So when you don't have fires, then that's, I would argue you should be the best

1019
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,180
at training, you know, the people that are running their ass off in, you know,

1020
01:21:13,180 --> 01:21:17,280
like Detroit, devil's night, they probably don't need to do fire training that night,

1021
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:20,480
you know, but if you work in a place that protects the theme park,

1022
01:21:20,480 --> 01:21:24,380
this very well sprinkler that never sees fire, then you need to be burning.

1023
01:21:24,380 --> 01:21:26,680
You need to be, you know, getting your fitness up, you know,

1024
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:30,180
because God forbid something horrendous happens and there's some horrible people

1025
01:21:30,180 --> 01:21:34,180
out there that are going to target where you work, then that's the time

1026
01:21:34,180 --> 01:21:35,280
when everyone's watching.

1027
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:38,780
And as I pointed out, you know, if you don't take it seriously,

1028
01:21:38,780 --> 01:21:42,580
you'll be the next Uvalde and you think it's expensive training

1029
01:21:42,580 --> 01:21:47,280
and staffing your department properly, wait till those lawsuits roll in.

1030
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:52,280
Yeah, you know, and you mentioned the Uvalde and the school safety aspect,

1031
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,280
you know, being the chairman of the county school board,

1032
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:58,180
that's something that's always on my mind and I'm thankful for the relationship

1033
01:21:58,180 --> 01:22:01,780
we have with our sheriff here in Brunswick County.

1034
01:22:01,780 --> 01:22:07,480
Sheriff Brian Chisholm is a phenomenal sheriff and he does a great job

1035
01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:09,580
with anything the school needs.

1036
01:22:09,580 --> 01:22:13,480
We have a great partnership with him and he does a great job covering our schools

1037
01:22:13,480 --> 01:22:16,280
and make sure our schools are safe, not only with just people,

1038
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,580
but make sure we have the very best technology as well.

1039
01:22:19,580 --> 01:22:23,680
But getting back to if you don't burn a lot and being the best at training

1040
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:29,980
and all those things, you know, the biggest or the career fire for me

1041
01:22:29,980 --> 01:22:34,080
actually happened on Bald Head Island in November of 2021.

1042
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:39,380
And it was a day where that morning I told the crew, I said, you know,

1043
01:22:39,380 --> 01:22:41,680
we're going to pull big lines today.

1044
01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:44,880
And we probably spent three and a half hours that morning pulling

1045
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:50,380
two and a half inch lines and flowing them and working on our skill

1046
01:22:50,380 --> 01:22:52,280
at flowing big water.

1047
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,180
We were setting up portable master streams, we were doing all those things.

1048
01:22:55,180 --> 01:23:00,080
We packed it all up and that evening about seven o'clock, you know,

1049
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,380
we get toned out to a structure fire and that being four houses

1050
01:23:04,380 --> 01:23:08,980
and two auxiliary structures on a night that had 19 mile an hour sustained winds

1051
01:23:08,980 --> 01:23:11,480
on a barrier island of North Carolina.

1052
01:23:11,480 --> 01:23:17,680
Right. And so I'll never forget the young lady that was on my shift at the time

1053
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:22,680
when she rolled up, I could tell in her voice that something was wrong.

1054
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:24,480
Right. And I rolled up shortly behind her.

1055
01:23:24,480 --> 01:23:25,780
We were on police that day.

1056
01:23:25,780 --> 01:23:27,680
We parked the vehicles out of the way, obviously.

1057
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:32,480
And I remember rolling up and I there was just it was just an inferno.

1058
01:23:32,480 --> 01:23:36,480
And my size up, there's a YouTube video of the radio traffic off to send it to you

1059
01:23:36,480 --> 01:23:37,880
because it's kind of comical.

1060
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,680
But my size up set was something along the lines of I think I have six structures

1061
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:46,780
on fire, but I'll let you know later because literally like that's what we were faced with.

1062
01:23:46,780 --> 01:23:55,080
Right. But we had just practiced deploying large lines

1063
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:59,180
and that fire was all large line deployment, you know,

1064
01:23:59,180 --> 01:24:01,280
two and a half for the smallest lines we were pulling.

1065
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:06,280
And so at the end of it, we all laughed like, man, we were really worked our asses off

1066
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:09,580
that morning, but it benefited us because we had just done it.

1067
01:24:09,580 --> 01:24:14,280
Right. And so that's why I tell you, you never know when a lighthouse landing fire.

1068
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:15,580
That's the name of the neighborhood.

1069
01:24:15,580 --> 01:24:20,680
What was you never know when that's going to happen and working at a place where things most

1070
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:22,080
of the time don't happen.

1071
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,580
You cannot let that consume your mind.

1072
01:24:24,580 --> 01:24:28,380
You can't go to shift every day and go, it's probably not going to happen today.

1073
01:24:28,380 --> 01:24:31,080
You have to go to shift every single day and set your gear

1074
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:32,680
up the same way you always do.

1075
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:33,880
Get your gear out of the bag.

1076
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:34,980
You have to check your tools.

1077
01:24:34,980 --> 01:24:36,380
You have to run your saws.

1078
01:24:36,380 --> 01:24:38,680
You have to do all the things.

1079
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:43,380
Whether you're going to one fire a year or 14 fires a year

1080
01:24:43,380 --> 01:24:46,580
because every single situation that matters, right?

1081
01:24:46,580 --> 01:24:48,280
That's putting first things first.

1082
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:52,780
And, you know, the whole cliche like people's lives are on the line.

1083
01:24:52,780 --> 01:24:55,180
Absolutely people's lives are on the line.

1084
01:24:55,180 --> 01:24:58,080
But your family is expecting you to come home.

1085
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:06,780
Like, you know, my wife probably has a lower level of anxiety or worry

1086
01:25:06,780 --> 01:25:11,580
than somebody who's the wife of a firefighter who works at a big fire department

1087
01:25:11,580 --> 01:25:16,180
that probably goes to a fire, you know, once every other shift or whatever.

1088
01:25:16,180 --> 01:25:18,980
I very rarely get off late.

1089
01:25:18,980 --> 01:25:22,680
I'm probably not going to be in a dangerous situation.

1090
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:26,080
But I have to have my mind prepared every single day that it's going to happen.

1091
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:29,880
And I tell my wife all the time when she's when we're out in the public

1092
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,480
and she's talking to somebody, I love where Steve works.

1093
01:25:32,480 --> 01:25:36,480
I always remind her that has been great up to this point,

1094
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:38,880
but it might not be great tomorrow.

1095
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:42,980
And that's why it's so important for leaders to invest in their people

1096
01:25:42,980 --> 01:25:46,480
and so important to combat that complacency

1097
01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:50,980
and make sure that you show up every single day present.

1098
01:25:50,980 --> 01:25:56,280
You just gave me the perfect, what they call it, soft pitch segue into the work week.

1099
01:25:56,280 --> 01:26:02,480
So speaking of investing in your people, talk to me about the schedule that you guys work.

1100
01:26:02,480 --> 01:26:09,380
Yeah, so we work arguably, in my opinion, the very best schedule that a fire department can work.

1101
01:26:09,380 --> 01:26:11,680
We work 24 72s.

1102
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:15,180
It's absolutely recruiting tool for us, even when we're recruiting police officers

1103
01:26:15,180 --> 01:26:19,880
to come work at the fire department, you know, that are not used to working 24 hour shifts

1104
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:23,480
knowing that they can go to work for one day and be off for three days.

1105
01:26:23,480 --> 01:26:26,680
It's an easy explanation to somebody coming from 12 hour shifts.

1106
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:28,880
So that's one unique thing for us.

1107
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:36,480
But I got to tell you, it has been amazing for my family and knowing that

1108
01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:39,580
because so I've worked 24 48s before.

1109
01:26:39,580 --> 01:26:45,980
I've also worked that one on one off one on one off one on four off schedule before

1110
01:26:45,980 --> 01:26:54,080
and I can tell you that that schedule was better than 24 48s, but nothing compares to 24 72s.

1111
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:55,880
And I'll tell you exactly why.

1112
01:26:55,880 --> 01:27:00,580
Because when you go home for three days, you can be present for yourself

1113
01:27:00,580 --> 01:27:03,380
and you can be present for your family.

1114
01:27:03,380 --> 01:27:09,380
No matter how big or small, how busy or slow your agency is, being on shift is tiring.

1115
01:27:09,380 --> 01:27:12,780
It is taxing on your body and a lot of it.

1116
01:27:12,780 --> 01:27:18,380
If you allow if you keep yourself in a ready state, you're not resting well.

1117
01:27:18,380 --> 01:27:21,680
There's a certain amount of anxiety whether you feel it or not.

1118
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:24,380
There's a certain amount of anxiety of what could happen next.

1119
01:27:24,380 --> 01:27:29,380
And so I know that I show up ready to be my very best every single day

1120
01:27:29,380 --> 01:27:31,980
because I just came off three days off.

1121
01:27:31,980 --> 01:27:36,980
I know that I am taking care of my family and I'm showing up present at home is the very best husband

1122
01:27:36,980 --> 01:27:41,980
and father every single day because I have three days off because I'm not always coming

1123
01:27:41,980 --> 01:27:44,680
or going to work or preparing for work.

1124
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:48,580
I'm allowed to I can come home and not let the fire department consume me.

1125
01:27:48,580 --> 01:27:52,780
I can come home and kind of turn it off while also being available

1126
01:27:52,780 --> 01:27:54,580
because I was telling my guys I'm available anytime you need me

1127
01:27:54,580 --> 01:27:56,280
and I answer the phone and all that.

1128
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:01,180
But you're able to separate that and have a life outside the fire department.

1129
01:28:01,180 --> 01:28:05,080
The other aspect of it is the recruiting and retention piece of it.

1130
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:09,180
And you're going to retain your people because you're not overworking them.

1131
01:28:09,180 --> 01:28:12,580
So, you know, we have recently found ourselves down a couple people.

1132
01:28:12,580 --> 01:28:17,780
And so we've had to work some overtime to do have had to even hold over.

1133
01:28:17,780 --> 01:28:19,680
That sucks in any schedule.

1134
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,680
But when you work 2472 you're burning your people out less

1135
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:26,580
because you're still giving them adequate time off.

1136
01:28:26,580 --> 01:28:29,780
The other aspect of it and the one thing I was here being involved in government

1137
01:28:29,780 --> 01:28:32,780
that always bothers me is it costs too much money.

1138
01:28:32,780 --> 01:28:34,580
I'll tell you what cost more money.

1139
01:28:34,580 --> 01:28:38,880
What cost more money is constant turnover and constant training of new people.

1140
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:44,280
What cost you more money is a liability lawsuit because somebody got injured on the job

1141
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:50,580
because they were falling asleep behind the wheel or they made poor decisions.

1142
01:28:50,580 --> 01:28:51,580
Absolutely.

1143
01:28:51,580 --> 01:28:53,880
There's a mic drop moment right there.

1144
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:56,180
When this I think this is what's important too

1145
01:28:56,180 --> 01:28:58,680
because when people talk about, you know, it's a waste of money.

1146
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:03,780
I just posted the other day Iceland just revealed the results of a study they did

1147
01:29:03,780 --> 01:29:05,880
going to the four-day civilian workweek.

1148
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:11,080
So the 32-hour workweek and their productivity is, you know, in that study one of my friends

1149
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:14,980
that I've been to Iceland they have Polish immigrants working six days a week maybe

1150
01:29:14,980 --> 01:29:18,680
but in that study in that parameter those people they were looking at, you know,

1151
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:22,080
there was an increased productivity and I've seen the same thing in the UK.

1152
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,580
So when in these organizations that are actually doing this,

1153
01:29:25,580 --> 01:29:30,980
this is being shown over and over and over again to, you know, again for the happiness

1154
01:29:30,980 --> 01:29:35,680
and health of their population is of course improved, but they're more innovative.

1155
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:41,580
You know, you come in we all know people make, you know, a two-hour job last eight hours sometimes.

1156
01:29:41,580 --> 01:29:46,580
So if you challenge them to do the same amount of work in less time, they'll rise up.

1157
01:29:46,580 --> 01:29:47,380
They'll work harder.

1158
01:29:47,380 --> 01:29:52,880
They'll be they'll invent things to kind of cut corners in a positive way make it more efficient.

1159
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:54,480
And so you look at the corporate space.

1160
01:29:54,480 --> 01:29:55,680
They already get it.

1161
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,180
Less is more invest in your people.

1162
01:29:58,180 --> 01:30:01,080
But then this argument against the fire service going to it.

1163
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:02,180
Oh, that'll never happen.

1164
01:30:02,180 --> 01:30:03,580
They'll never go for it.

1165
01:30:03,580 --> 01:30:11,180
You know, I always say how are you okay with someone who works 40 hours telling you that you can't work less than 56?

1166
01:30:11,180 --> 01:30:15,280
Like I thought we were a pretty courageous take-no-shit kind of, you know,

1167
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:19,080
profession and you guys are cowering like where is your, you know,

1168
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:24,780
where is your fight to be at home with your family more and then one of the pushbacks I get.

1169
01:30:24,780 --> 01:30:27,980
Oh, well, you know, what about the stations that barely run anything?

1170
01:30:27,980 --> 01:30:33,480
Well, I would assume that your department is not running four or five calls a night and please correct me if I'm wrong.

1171
01:30:33,480 --> 01:30:39,480
But you invest in your people and there's a time when you wake up and there's six structures on fire.

1172
01:30:39,480 --> 01:30:46,380
Well, there's a heart attack or a stroke or some random wave that came through and caved in the houses at the front, whatever it was.

1173
01:30:46,380 --> 01:30:49,580
So, you know, this is what's so great to hear about that.

1174
01:30:49,580 --> 01:30:57,680
You're you're not having the core volume of, you know, you know, one of the Ohio cities Cleveland, for example, downtown.

1175
01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,280
But that's not the point.

1176
01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:02,780
You know, it's it's what's healthiest for the first responders.

1177
01:31:02,780 --> 01:31:08,580
And if you are getting your rear end handed to you in some inner city, this is even more of a fit.

1178
01:31:08,580 --> 01:31:17,980
But if a progressive town in North Carolina is seeing this or barrier island is seeing this as value and a recruitment tool and a retention tool,

1179
01:31:17,980 --> 01:31:23,980
then I hope to God that the rest of the population whose first responders are being driven into the ground

1180
01:31:23,980 --> 01:31:29,180
who are drowning from the lack of recruitment these days will listen to all these departments,

1181
01:31:29,180 --> 01:31:35,380
including yours and the testimony you've just got and realize that this absolutely is the solution.

1182
01:31:35,380 --> 01:31:37,080
And it's not even, you know, three days off.

1183
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:38,580
You know, you've worked till eight.

1184
01:31:38,580 --> 01:31:41,380
So like I tell people, you work three days on one day off.

1185
01:31:41,380 --> 01:31:48,780
So now this will allow you to work three days on two days off and that extra day will give you time to actually recuperate.

1186
01:31:48,780 --> 01:31:57,980
Yeah, you know, I can say that I'm blessed to work for a municipality that values family and values time away from work.

1187
01:31:57,980 --> 01:32:03,280
And, you know, it says on our recruitment flyer when we're hiring a work life balance,

1188
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:12,980
like they literally write that on there because they think it's important and perspective employees see that from the get go

1189
01:32:12,980 --> 01:32:21,580
when they see the job posting work life balance because that also contributes to all the things that we talked about previously

1190
01:32:21,580 --> 01:32:29,580
with healthy relationships and addiction and all those things is, you know, having that balance and that off time to clear your mind.

1191
01:32:29,580 --> 01:32:37,380
And, you know, we don't run a ton of calls like a busy inner city engine company or anything like that.

1192
01:32:37,380 --> 01:32:40,580
During the summertime, we we we run a lot more calls.

1193
01:32:40,580 --> 01:32:48,680
But again, I think basing it purely off call volume is probably the worst way to look at it.

1194
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:52,280
You need to base it off of what is right for people.

1195
01:32:52,280 --> 01:33:01,180
OK, because if you show up for your people as an employer, if you show up for your people every day, they're never going to hesitate to show up for you.

1196
01:33:01,180 --> 01:33:08,580
And in the fire service where we find more people retiring than we have coming into the fire service,

1197
01:33:08,580 --> 01:33:10,380
we have to let people know that they're appreciated.

1198
01:33:10,380 --> 01:33:16,680
There's a lot of job perks in the fire service that we've lost over the years and we need to get some of those back.

1199
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:21,680
The other thing about it is not only that we have more retirees than we have recruits,

1200
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:28,580
but we have more volunteer fire departments going to paid fire departments because when people are away from their families,

1201
01:33:28,580 --> 01:33:37,680
they need to be making money in most cases or areas are growing so rapidly that a volunteer fire department alone can't service it.

1202
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:42,680
And I've been a volunteer before, you know, as a volunteer, EMS chief.

1203
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:50,980
I'm not trying to make it sound like I don't appreciate volunteers because they're an absolute needed force in emergency response.

1204
01:33:50,980 --> 01:33:57,080
But there's just a lot of areas where the paid service is now coming in and being a part and collaborating with it.

1205
01:33:57,080 --> 01:34:02,180
And so this shift schedule sends the message that you care about your people.

1206
01:34:02,180 --> 01:34:07,480
It sends the message to the community that we are going to provide the very best responders for you.

1207
01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:12,380
Every single day, because one thing that seems to be a trend,

1208
01:34:12,380 --> 01:34:18,680
I've seen it happen around us, is this 48, 96 nonsense.

1209
01:34:18,680 --> 01:34:26,480
You know, if 24 hours is a long time, 48 hours is a really long time.

1210
01:34:26,480 --> 01:34:29,180
And, you know, they say we get 96 hours off.

1211
01:34:29,180 --> 01:34:37,880
That's just a play on a play on words because 48 hours on shift is two whole days away from your family.

1212
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:42,580
That's two whole days that my wife and my kids want want me to be home.

1213
01:34:42,580 --> 01:34:46,880
That's two more days I'm not investing in my family.

1214
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:50,980
And I think that has to be noticed.

1215
01:34:50,980 --> 01:34:57,280
Yeah, it's interesting. I interviewed Joel Billings and I feel so bad because I mean, it sounds like a witch hunt,

1216
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:00,580
but it's just a perfect example. And we touched on COVID.

1217
01:35:00,580 --> 01:35:04,780
Trust the science. The science is not always apples to apples.

1218
01:35:04,780 --> 01:35:10,380
You know, there are studies that show that McDonald's and cigarettes are great for you and other people don't know what they're talking about.

1219
01:35:10,380 --> 01:35:13,580
Sponsored by McDonald's and cigarette companies.

1220
01:35:13,580 --> 01:35:17,780
And Joel did this study and, you know, innocently, he was a volunteer firefighter,

1221
01:35:17,780 --> 01:35:23,380
but he self-admittedly had never even worked overnight as a shift, you know, as a volunteer.

1222
01:35:23,380 --> 01:35:27,380
And he did a study 24 48 versus 48 96.

1223
01:35:27,380 --> 01:35:33,780
And the department he used using his words ran less than one call a night.

1224
01:35:33,780 --> 01:35:37,780
So he publishes a study and then as you said, people ran with it.

1225
01:35:37,780 --> 01:35:39,780
Oh, this is the best schedule.

1226
01:35:39,780 --> 01:35:43,180
The only real advantage to that was that second morning.

1227
01:35:43,180 --> 01:35:45,180
You're not having to get up at 5 a.m.

1228
01:35:45,180 --> 01:35:48,980
to drive 90 miles to the fire station like most of us do.

1229
01:35:48,980 --> 01:35:54,580
So which can be remedied in which I love this idea changing the start time from,

1230
01:35:54,580 --> 01:35:59,580
you know, 7 or 8 in the morning to 11 midday, you know, the 12 noon.

1231
01:35:59,580 --> 01:36:06,980
So that way most people that are especially if you're anywhere with bad traffic and obviously your your commute is unique.

1232
01:36:06,980 --> 01:36:11,980
You know, you wake up at home, you have breakfast with your family, they go to school and work.

1233
01:36:11,980 --> 01:36:14,180
You then head off to the station.

1234
01:36:14,180 --> 01:36:19,580
And then meantime, the person that you're relieving got hammered all night, but they get to sleep.

1235
01:36:19,580 --> 01:36:21,580
They get up at, you know, 10 11.

1236
01:36:21,580 --> 01:36:26,980
Now they drive home safely rather than trying to keep their eyes pried open with matchsticks and not,

1237
01:36:26,980 --> 01:36:29,980
you know, crash into the side of the freeway.

1238
01:36:29,980 --> 01:36:38,580
So when you look at the science behind that study, it was this myopic slice that applies to almost no fire department,

1239
01:36:38,580 --> 01:36:40,580
some, but almost none.

1240
01:36:40,580 --> 01:36:45,980
And these departments that run, you know, three, four, five calls a night went with this,

1241
01:36:45,980 --> 01:36:49,980
not understanding that 24 hours without sleep is extremely dangerous.

1242
01:36:49,980 --> 01:36:52,980
Forty eight is pure insanity.

1243
01:36:52,980 --> 01:36:59,580
And we wonder why we have so many suicides and addictions and cancers and testosterone in the toilet and all the things.

1244
01:36:59,580 --> 01:37:02,380
So, you know, they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

1245
01:37:02,380 --> 01:37:04,780
There is no better example of that.

1246
01:37:04,780 --> 01:37:07,180
So that's one thing I'm trying to do as well.

1247
01:37:07,180 --> 01:37:10,580
And hopefully Joel will now start studying the 24 72.

1248
01:37:10,580 --> 01:37:16,880
I think he and Sarah Jenke might be starting to do that because it was an innocent study,

1249
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:19,980
but it was taken completely out of context.

1250
01:37:19,980 --> 01:37:25,180
And there's a lot of men and women that working and it's extremely dangerous for them when they're in the uniform.

1251
01:37:25,180 --> 01:37:32,580
And their chronic health is, you know, is extremely at risk because of this insane work schedule that they've got.

1252
01:37:32,580 --> 01:37:40,080
So that was interesting when I spoke to him and I really learned about how this even became in the forefront in the first place.

1253
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:46,380
It was, again, you know, taking something that was done innocently and taken completely out of context.

1254
01:37:46,380 --> 01:37:51,980
Well, I think for years to, you know, and I don't have the study offhand,

1255
01:37:51,980 --> 01:37:59,380
but a number of years ago, there was a study done of employees and it was what is the most important thing to you?

1256
01:37:59,380 --> 01:38:07,180
And it was consecutive days off and time off matters and having consecutive days off.

1257
01:38:07,180 --> 01:38:16,680
And I think, you know, that forty nine to six falsely gives that security of, oh, you have more days off together,

1258
01:38:16,680 --> 01:38:20,680
but it doesn't talk about what you're giving up to get those days off.

1259
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:35,280
And, you know, no matter how many calls you run, you have a heightened level of awareness when you're on the job, especially the police force.

1260
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:41,580
So no matter where you work, whether you are having to draw your weapon every day or not,

1261
01:38:41,580 --> 01:38:47,680
you have a heightened level of awareness of what's going on around you, especially in the modern age, we find ourselves.

1262
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:51,680
And so, again, that is taxing on the brain.

1263
01:38:51,680 --> 01:39:02,580
You know, I would love to see a study of Alzheimer's and dementia in first responders because of some of the things that that we go through.

1264
01:39:02,580 --> 01:39:11,080
And is there any statistics and data that can be drawn and conclusions of that trend and that connection?

1265
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:18,280
You know, and the other aspect of it.

1266
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:23,680
You can study anything and you mentioned earlier, you can find studies for and against anything.

1267
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:26,880
I guess that's a great thing about Google and it's also the worst thing about it.

1268
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:33,280
Right. And so you can find studies for and against anything and numbers will lie to you.

1269
01:39:33,280 --> 01:39:43,980
I mean, you can look at polls and statistics and the way they're presented and documented and they're switched and the way the words are changed to make it mean something that you want it to mean.

1270
01:39:43,980 --> 01:39:50,480
You and I could take the same data set and present it two different ways and tell two totally different stories.

1271
01:39:50,480 --> 01:40:06,280
And I fear sometimes that a lot of that comes from the managing entity, whether it be municipal government or private sector company boards looking out for their bottom line in the bottom dollar and not looking out for the person.

1272
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:07,880
Well, I think this is what's interesting, too.

1273
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:14,580
I mean, I've had so many conversations now, including with Tulsi Gabbard, and we're talking about the national problems that we have.

1274
01:40:14,580 --> 01:40:17,080
And it's that false economy.

1275
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:22,480
You know, I want to look good in this budget year, so I'm not going to ask for extra people for a D shift.

1276
01:40:22,480 --> 01:40:27,480
I just want to look good and then I can get promoted or get my Christmas bonus or whatever it is.

1277
01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:30,580
But that's costing the taxpayer a huge amount of money.

1278
01:40:30,580 --> 01:40:34,680
That's another video I want to do is literally to them, the civilian.

1279
01:40:34,680 --> 01:40:38,880
Do you understand the way the fire service is being run now?

1280
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:46,680
What is happening? The loss of performance, the loss of health, the overtime that's having to be filled, the cost of that.

1281
01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:55,480
And so if you look at what's best, even fiscally, you know, as you touched on earlier, it's not vacant spaces that having to be paid time and a half,

1282
01:40:55,480 --> 01:41:03,980
you know, which is then taking those first responders yet another 24 when we promised that they would be at that football game or that dance recital or whatever it was.

1283
01:41:03,980 --> 01:41:05,980
And now we have to make that phone call.

1284
01:41:05,980 --> 01:41:08,580
We all know what that phone call is like.

1285
01:41:08,580 --> 01:41:15,280
So investing in your people, having it where, as you mentioned, you show people that you have a work life balance.

1286
01:41:15,280 --> 01:41:20,680
These young people get excited. They start lining up outside your department to work for you again.

1287
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:28,180
Now you save money from the overtime, from the workman's comp claims, from the medical retirements, from the line of duty deaths,

1288
01:41:28,180 --> 01:41:30,780
from the mistakes that we make that result in lawsuits.

1289
01:41:30,780 --> 01:41:35,180
You save millions and millions and millions year in, year out.

1290
01:41:35,180 --> 01:41:42,580
So I think this is the thing is financially having the courage to invest in your people, but also knowing that you're going to be the hero then.

1291
01:41:42,580 --> 01:41:53,780
Maybe not this year, but five years from now, they're going to look back and go, thank God that we went to that 24 72 because we have so much more money now that we can invest in gyms in the stations.

1292
01:41:53,780 --> 01:41:55,780
We can put that fourth person back on the rig.

1293
01:41:55,780 --> 01:41:58,280
We can open that station that we browned out.

1294
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:01,580
You know, this is, I think, where we need courage and leadership.

1295
01:42:01,580 --> 01:42:12,180
If you're just concerned about your own career path, which I see here locally, people are too scared to advocate for other people because then they're not going to get to that next rung of their ladder.

1296
01:42:12,180 --> 01:42:14,080
That's not what we put the uniform.

1297
01:42:14,080 --> 01:42:16,180
We put the uniform on to serve other people.

1298
01:42:16,180 --> 01:42:32,080
So having the courage to invest in your department will not only serve, which I would argue most importantly, the men and women in uniform, but it will make us better at serving the civilians and it will actually save them taxpayers money, which will only then improve everyone's life.

1299
01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:48,080
You know, you mentioned something, the courage to serve always comes to mind with this for me because as firefighters in the modern day, we are so willing and ready to serve others.

1300
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:55,180
But when it comes down to serving our peers within the fire department, serving ourselves, we run scared many times.

1301
01:42:55,180 --> 01:43:03,480
And like you said, it has a lot to do with promotions or trying to build unhealthy relationships with department administration, maybe because you want to be liked.

1302
01:43:03,480 --> 01:43:07,580
But at the end of the day, doing the right thing has to matter.

1303
01:43:07,580 --> 01:43:15,680
And I think one thing that's missing a lot of times in this schedule argument is looking at vacancy rates.

1304
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:27,780
If you look at the vacancy rates of departments on various schedules, you're going to find that daily vacancy rates are lower with 24 72s.

1305
01:43:27,780 --> 01:43:36,780
I have not I have not done my own study. I have not seen the study yet, but I'm just I'm thinking about the perspective I have with all the conversation with people on these different schedules.

1306
01:43:36,780 --> 01:43:43,180
Daily vacancy rates could assume to be lower with that.

1307
01:43:43,180 --> 01:43:48,680
Workers comp, vacancy rates and injury rates are lower.

1308
01:43:48,680 --> 01:43:54,780
And again, do you want to have a department.

1309
01:43:56,780 --> 01:44:02,080
Where you have more people struggling with substance abuse and more divorces, or do you want to have a department.

1310
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:07,180
That concentrates on family concentrates on healthy lifestyle.

1311
01:44:07,180 --> 01:44:10,180
And is that the pinnacle of the service?

1312
01:44:10,180 --> 01:44:16,280
And you know, you could be the aspiration of everybody else around you.

1313
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:18,180
Look what they're doing. They're doing it right.

1314
01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:19,180
They take care of their people.

1315
01:44:19,180 --> 01:44:22,080
People are retiring from their agency again, right?

1316
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:25,880
Because there's so many agencies that don't have people that retire from it anymore.

1317
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:27,980
So many.

1318
01:44:27,980 --> 01:44:33,280
Well, I think the other point just to kind of add to that, which I think is really important.

1319
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:38,780
Firstly, there's this kind of mythology that if we lower standards, we can attract people.

1320
01:44:38,780 --> 01:44:40,880
And I couldn't disagree more. I've seen it.

1321
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:48,780
Anaheim, California, they held us to such a high standard that 25% of every probationary class was gone by the end of the year through attrition.

1322
01:44:48,780 --> 01:44:50,380
You can either reach the bar or you can't.

1323
01:44:50,380 --> 01:44:59,580
Conversely, the last place I worked out, the bar was in a trench in the floor and they could barely even get enough people to fill the vacancies.

1324
01:44:59,580 --> 01:45:04,880
You would think, you know, if that was the case, that, you know, you'd have all these people applying because they're not holding us to a standard.

1325
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:08,980
But when you're in a profession where lives are at stake, we want that challenge.

1326
01:45:08,980 --> 01:45:10,280
We want that bar to be up.

1327
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:20,580
But if you have a revolving door and we see this in Marion where I live, we see this in Orange County where I used to work, half of the department has five years or less.

1328
01:45:20,580 --> 01:45:25,480
Who do you want showing up on that rig when your family are having their worst day?

1329
01:45:25,480 --> 01:45:31,280
You know, two firefighters that have got six months on the tool and an LT on the radio has got three years.

1330
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:35,380
You know, so this has to be you got to think about the big picture.

1331
01:45:35,380 --> 01:45:38,380
So the retention conversation is so important.

1332
01:45:38,380 --> 01:45:40,280
Why are people not staying?

1333
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:47,280
As someone said to me, and it's so true, it said your ultimate recruiting tool are the people that already work there.

1334
01:45:47,280 --> 01:45:48,880
They're the ones that are going to be excited.

1335
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:53,080
They're the ones that, you know, other people are going to see and go, man, I want to do what he's doing or she's doing.

1336
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:54,280
They're in great shape.

1337
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:59,080
They actually are home with their family more because they've got a 24-72.

1338
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:01,180
You know, they seem to really enjoy their job.

1339
01:46:01,180 --> 01:46:03,480
You know, they get other people fired up about it.

1340
01:46:03,480 --> 01:46:11,580
That's how you get in not offering a $3,000 signing bonus and telling them they don't have to do push ups or sit ups anymore.

1341
01:46:11,580 --> 01:46:14,080
You know, that is just complete junk science.

1342
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:22,980
So if you are struggling to fill and then people are leaving to go to other departments constantly, we have seen this with some of these departments.

1343
01:46:22,980 --> 01:46:24,480
Pasco is a great example.

1344
01:46:24,480 --> 01:46:36,180
It's a county in Florida, the moment they announced that they were going to a 24-72, actually, they were saying the moment it was even a rumor on the street, people started lining up.

1345
01:46:36,180 --> 01:46:41,380
And just like you said, Hugh Bruder from Boynton Beach talked about being a destination department.

1346
01:46:41,380 --> 01:46:47,580
You wanted a department like Anaheim was when I worked there that everyone else is talking about, everyone else wants to work for.

1347
01:46:47,580 --> 01:46:54,480
And that's why they could, you know, get rid of a quarter of us of every class because there was another thousand of us lining up to work.

1348
01:46:54,480 --> 01:47:03,480
So we were there once as a profession, but the way that we do it clearly isn't working because look at the holes in all these departments.

1349
01:47:03,480 --> 01:47:05,880
Look at the lack of retirements, as you said.

1350
01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:08,980
And that's someone saying I've vested for X amount of time.

1351
01:47:08,980 --> 01:47:10,380
I don't want the money.

1352
01:47:10,380 --> 01:47:11,280
This is so bad.

1353
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:13,180
I'm just going to leave anyway.

1354
01:47:13,180 --> 01:47:26,080
So we have a beautiful opportunity to turn it around and it's testimonies like yours and, you know, talking about your fire department or sorry, your public safety department that are finally out there because you said that, you know, you haven't seen the studies.

1355
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:27,280
There aren't any studies.

1356
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:35,780
The fire service has done nothing about shift work because they know, they know the real issue and no one's had the balls to actually say we need to study this.

1357
01:47:35,780 --> 01:47:38,880
We need to annotate this because this is killing our firefighters.

1358
01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:40,480
And it disgusts me because I've said this publicly.

1359
01:47:40,480 --> 01:47:42,280
I played Union Jews for 14 years.

1360
01:47:42,280 --> 01:47:45,180
I never heard this mentioned once.

1361
01:47:45,180 --> 01:47:54,780
So now these departments are emerging that have changed to it in Florida or North Carolina or some of these other areas that we've done it for a while like the Northeast.

1362
01:47:54,780 --> 01:48:01,680
The dominoes are starting to fall and the people that are at the forefront of this are going to have all these recruits lining up.

1363
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,880
So it's so, so great to hear all the things because you've had this for a while.

1364
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:09,680
You can actually testify on the benefits that you're seeing.

1365
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:13,380
I can tell you one thing that plays into as well as the crew camaraderie.

1366
01:48:13,380 --> 01:48:22,080
So we know that crew integrity is so important in the fire service is important in law enforcement and even an EMS,

1367
01:48:22,080 --> 01:48:29,980
you know, working with that partner on the back of the ambulance where you can treat a patient very well without ever speaking to your partner because you work so well together.

1368
01:48:29,980 --> 01:48:34,180
Right. Same thing, you know, in a fire or a law enforcement incident.

1369
01:48:34,180 --> 01:48:43,280
And having that amount of time off allows you to build relationships with your crew and with your peers outside the fire station.

1370
01:48:43,280 --> 01:48:45,380
Man, is that a benefit?

1371
01:48:45,380 --> 01:48:48,480
And that's just another investment, essentially, that the municipality makes.

1372
01:48:48,480 --> 01:48:54,880
It allows you to build those relationships that camaraderie that crew integrity outside the firehouse,

1373
01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:59,580
which pays dividends in the future when you're responding on the streets.

1374
01:48:59,580 --> 01:49:02,880
Well, I want to hit one more topic and then we'll go to some closing questions.

1375
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:10,380
You have this unique lens where, you know, you've not only worn the uniform, but you've also sat in the political chairs, too.

1376
01:49:10,380 --> 01:49:18,580
For people listening that want to better their department, hopefully the 24 72 is at the forefront of this conversation.

1377
01:49:18,580 --> 01:49:22,880
We have done a horrible job of branding what we do.

1378
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:26,680
I mean, we all hear these stories. Why is there a fire engine on my EMS call?

1379
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:31,280
What are we buying you for lunch? All the bullshit fallacies.

1380
01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:37,880
But that just shows that we've done a terrible job of storytelling, which is, again, one of the reasons why I want my latest book to be a TV show.

1381
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:40,780
Hopefully we can kind of set some of that straight.

1382
01:49:40,780 --> 01:49:45,980
But from a branding point of view, especially to city or county government officials,

1383
01:49:45,980 --> 01:49:55,580
we're trying to get them to understand what we actually do and why some of these progressive changes are so important on top of saving them money as well.

1384
01:49:55,580 --> 01:50:01,380
How would you advise the leaders listening to initiate that conversation?

1385
01:50:01,380 --> 01:50:08,480
OK, so I always refer back to my political experience with this.

1386
01:50:08,480 --> 01:50:15,080
If you don't control the narrative, the narrative will be controlled for you.

1387
01:50:15,080 --> 01:50:20,680
And that goes right back to what you were saying about a fire engine on an EMS call.

1388
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:24,580
And I'm going to tell you a personal experience from when I was a child and had asthma.

1389
01:50:24,580 --> 01:50:34,280
And in the suburb that I grew up in in Ohio, you had a fire truck that would show up, paramedic level fire fires on an engine.

1390
01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:40,480
You would have a city fire based EMS paramedic level ambulance show up.

1391
01:50:40,480 --> 01:50:46,980
And then a third vehicle would show up, which was AMR, a private transport service.

1392
01:50:46,980 --> 01:50:52,580
And for years, I never understood that. Even as a kid growing up, I heard my parents complaining about it.

1393
01:50:52,580 --> 01:50:56,380
And what that was is there was two people on an ambulance.

1394
01:50:56,380 --> 01:50:59,580
They were calling. I was having an asthma attack. So a severe breathing problem called.

1395
01:50:59,580 --> 01:51:02,580
I needed more hands on deck. That's why the fire truck comes.

1396
01:51:02,580 --> 01:51:06,780
Then they would get me treated. And it was a non-emergency transport scene or situation.

1397
01:51:06,780 --> 01:51:15,680
And because the city was short on ambulances, they contracted with this private entity to transport the patient to the hospital in a non-emergency situation.

1398
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:23,380
So you have all these vehicles show up and nobody knew what it was like because it wasn't the narrative wasn't controlled by the city.

1399
01:51:23,380 --> 01:51:32,280
Right. And so I've always said, if you don't control the narrative and you don't tell the story you want to be told, somebody is going to write it for you.

1400
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:37,980
And I've had that experience in politics and I've had that experience in the fire service.

1401
01:51:37,980 --> 01:51:42,680
I can tell you the agency I work for now has great community involvement.

1402
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:47,680
And we also have volunteers that work with us. And so we control our narrative.

1403
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:53,180
And a lot of that has to do with public education and PR, which are two different things.

1404
01:51:53,180 --> 01:51:57,480
A lot of departments use public education and PR and think of the same thing. They're very different.

1405
01:51:57,480 --> 01:52:00,780
The objectives are very different, but they're both vital.

1406
01:52:00,780 --> 01:52:12,480
And so through doing that and explaining how responses happen and don't assume that when people call 911, they know why and how the response is happening.

1407
01:52:12,480 --> 01:52:21,880
You know, for us, for a vacationer that comes to Baldhead Island, they call 911 because somebody fell.

1408
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:30,880
And a police officer shows up looking like the police that come in with a bag all of a sudden, you know, they're starting an IV on somebody or somebody.

1409
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:36,180
They have no idea what's going on because where they live in New York or New Jersey or California, that's not what happens.

1410
01:52:36,180 --> 01:52:40,680
Right. The police normally say, let me know if they need us or whatever.

1411
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:43,380
And they don't come or they just kind of stand in the corner.

1412
01:52:43,380 --> 01:52:53,080
So that's the unique thing about us. And so we have to brand that because we have to build that comfort and that trust with the community we serve.

1413
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:59,780
And so same thing with the grocery store argument. A couple of years ago, that was a big thing in the area where I live.

1414
01:52:59,780 --> 01:53:02,280
Why is the fire engine at the grocery store?

1415
01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:07,980
And some agencies have decided no more fire trucks or grocery stores.

1416
01:53:07,980 --> 01:53:13,780
You got to take a pickup. So then you're splitting your crews, sending part of them in a pickup truck.

1417
01:53:13,780 --> 01:53:22,680
And then a call comes off. You no longer have your moment of stepping on a rig, you know, or now instead of a single fire engine going to a grass fire.

1418
01:53:22,680 --> 01:53:30,380
Now you have two vehicles going because part of them was whatever they were doing in the pickup truck and then the engines got to go with the pickup truck.

1419
01:53:30,380 --> 01:53:32,880
Can't fight the fire. It just creates chaos.

1420
01:53:32,880 --> 01:53:34,980
And then one thing we didn't talk about is the liability, right.

1421
01:53:34,980 --> 01:53:44,280
Of running emergency traffic down a busy road with lights and sirens going and the the unknown of what the public is going to do when that happens in their rearview mirror.

1422
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:49,180
And so there's just so many things that again, you have to control the narrative.

1423
01:53:49,180 --> 01:53:52,380
You have to write the story or it will be written for you.

1424
01:53:52,380 --> 01:53:54,680
Beautiful. I appreciate it. All right.

1425
01:53:54,680 --> 01:54:01,780
Well, I want to go to some closing questions quickly. The first one I love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend?

1426
01:54:01,780 --> 01:54:06,180
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1427
01:54:06,180 --> 01:54:10,080
Yeah. So the first one is Leadership is Not for Cowards.

1428
01:54:10,080 --> 01:54:12,380
That was given to me by Dr.

1429
01:54:12,380 --> 01:54:17,280
Jerry Oates, who was the superintendent when I was first elected to the school board.

1430
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:24,480
And in the I don't know if it's on the first page, but it's definitely in the in the first chapter.

1431
01:54:24,480 --> 01:54:32,380
There's a sentence and it says you are messing with people's lives.

1432
01:54:32,380 --> 01:54:37,980
And I've always thought about that.

1433
01:54:37,980 --> 01:54:42,880
Every decision you make has an impact on somebody else.

1434
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:44,880
You're messing with people's lives.

1435
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:49,280
And so that was a great book. It put a lot of things in perspective for me.

1436
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:54,980
And then the other book that I'm reading right now that.

1437
01:54:54,980 --> 01:54:57,680
This is actually a second time reading it.

1438
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:02,980
It's called Decisive and the author's last name is Heath.

1439
01:55:02,980 --> 01:55:07,580
Actually, it's two men, Chip and Dan Heath.

1440
01:55:07,580 --> 01:55:09,580
So I don't know if they're brothers. I haven't gotten to that point.

1441
01:55:09,580 --> 01:55:16,180
I haven't actually put that connection together, but the book is Decisive and I am a lifelong learner.

1442
01:55:16,180 --> 01:55:20,280
I love learning about leadership. I love learning about what makes people tick

1443
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:23,680
and what motivates people and learning about discipline,

1444
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:28,280
especially working in a public safety agency where some people come into our agency as police officers,

1445
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:31,380
traditional police officers, some come in as traditional firefighters.

1446
01:55:31,380 --> 01:55:35,380
And what motivates police officers and firefighters are two totally different things.

1447
01:55:35,380 --> 01:55:39,380
And I've always loved blending those things together.

1448
01:55:39,380 --> 01:55:42,180
So, yeah, those are two books.

1449
01:55:42,180 --> 01:55:44,780
Beautiful. I'm going to have to get leadership is not for cowards.

1450
01:55:44,780 --> 01:55:48,480
That's a few people I need to send it to.

1451
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:54,080
All right. Well, then what about films and documentaries?

1452
01:55:54,080 --> 01:55:58,080
You're going to find this funny, maybe or perplexing.

1453
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:01,080
I don't really watch TV.

1454
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:04,180
Around the firehouse, the guys always give me a hard time because, you know,

1455
01:56:04,180 --> 01:56:10,480
they did the movie quote thing like everybody does, and I don't get any of those.

1456
01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:13,680
I'm just not a big TV watcher.

1457
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:20,080
I jokingly tell people I have undiagnosed narcolepsy because I fall asleep very easily when I sit down.

1458
01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:23,680
But I'm just I'm a busy body. I just like doing things and learning.

1459
01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:30,280
And that may be the detriment of me one day is that I don't like when I'm sleeping,

1460
01:56:30,280 --> 01:56:33,580
I rest, I sleep well, and I make sure I get enough sleep at night.

1461
01:56:33,580 --> 01:56:35,980
I'm boring. I go to bed at nine o'clock every night.

1462
01:56:35,980 --> 01:56:41,280
My wife and I do. And but I'm up four o'clock every morning because I'm just thankful for every single day

1463
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:47,080
that I've been given and I don't want to pass up an opportunity to be better and enrich my own life

1464
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:49,980
to potentially enrich somebody else's life.

1465
01:56:49,980 --> 01:56:53,480
And I'm not saying watching TV is a bad thing. I just it's just not something I do.

1466
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:59,880
I read a lot. I like to work out and, you know, I'm known to be seen playing Barbies

1467
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:04,380
or whatever with my daughters and just just investing in them.

1468
01:57:04,380 --> 01:57:06,080
Beautiful. Love it. Yeah, it's not.

1469
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:07,980
There's a lot of people actually that say the same thing.

1470
01:57:07,980 --> 01:57:10,780
I enjoy documentaries and some things on the screen.

1471
01:57:10,780 --> 01:57:17,080
I enjoy a good film. The problem is now at 50 years old, you've just seen most of these stories over and over again.

1472
01:57:17,080 --> 01:57:21,980
So it's hard to find a good piece of cinema these days. But yeah, beautiful.

1473
01:57:21,980 --> 01:57:26,280
All right. Well, then the next question, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast

1474
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:35,280
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world?

1475
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:42,780
You know, I can think of a number of people who have had an impact on me,

1476
01:57:42,780 --> 01:57:50,880
but the person I think that would really do you a great service is a close friend of mine

1477
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:57,780
who is not a firefighter, but he is a veteran and he served admirably admirably

1478
01:57:57,780 --> 01:58:01,280
in the armed forces here in the United States. And that's Jason Gaver.

1479
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:06,580
He is also the president of our Brunswick County Habitat for Humanity.

1480
01:58:06,580 --> 01:58:09,880
So he's giving back to his community every single day.

1481
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:16,280
But he's the person I call when I know I have a hard decision or a hard conversation coming up

1482
01:58:16,280 --> 01:58:20,780
because you know, another book that I try to read once a year is Crucial Conversations.

1483
01:58:20,780 --> 01:58:27,480
And I call him when I have a crucial conversation to have because he always helps center me.

1484
01:58:27,480 --> 01:58:32,980
He always gives me what I feel like is that one question I should ask.

1485
01:58:32,980 --> 01:58:38,880
You know, I had a situation recently with a colleague of mine and I had to have a crucial conversation.

1486
01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:47,380
And I called him up, I said, Jason, I said, I got this thing and I want to know their meaning behind it,

1487
01:58:47,380 --> 01:58:50,880
but I don't know how to get it across. And I don't want to sound like an asshole, right?

1488
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:57,980
And he's like, Steve, is this in person or on the phone? I said in person.

1489
01:58:57,980 --> 01:59:03,680
He said, look him in the eye and say, what's your motivation?

1490
01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:07,080
And I kind of chuckled. I'm like, really? He's like, yeah.

1491
01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:09,280
Well, it turns out the meeting was canceled. I had to do it over the phone.

1492
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:10,880
But I asked, I said, what's your motivation?

1493
01:59:10,880 --> 01:59:16,580
I learned so much about this individual that I didn't know because I had preconceived assumptions.

1494
01:59:16,580 --> 01:59:23,480
So anyway, if he would do it, I think he would be a phenomenal person for you to talk to as well.

1495
01:59:23,480 --> 01:59:25,480
Beautiful. Well, thank you.

1496
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:29,080
All right. Well, then the last question for you, make sure everyone knows where to find you.

1497
01:59:29,080 --> 01:59:31,880
What you do to decompress?

1498
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:37,680
Yeah, so decompression for me is I like to run, I like to work out,

1499
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:42,480
and I incorporate a lot of that with my relationship with my family, my wife and I like to go out and walk.

1500
01:59:42,480 --> 01:59:48,580
My daughters and I will get out and do some short distance runs or bike runs or short distance runs or bike rides.

1501
01:59:48,580 --> 01:59:50,280
We're just kind of an outdoors family.

1502
01:59:50,280 --> 01:59:56,480
And then my big thing for me as a stress relief is I do a lot of long distance running on my own.

1503
01:59:56,480 --> 01:59:59,880
Getting into running has really challenged my mind.

1504
01:59:59,880 --> 02:00:04,480
I have a busy mind and running really makes you be present in the moment.

1505
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:11,980
If you're running a 50 mile or 100 mile race, you can't think of mile 50 when you're on mile five

1506
02:00:11,980 --> 02:00:14,580
because there's a whole lot of time and miles in between there.

1507
02:00:14,580 --> 02:00:20,480
And so I've been able to utilize that just in life at work and in my personal life.

1508
02:00:20,480 --> 02:00:23,880
I'm just being present in the moment and enjoy the moment now.

1509
02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:29,080
And you have to do what you're doing now to get where you're going tomorrow.

1510
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:32,480
Beautiful. All right. Well, then if people want to learn more about you,

1511
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,680
reach out where the best places online to do that.

1512
02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:41,380
Yeah. So I have all the normal social media is Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn.

1513
02:00:41,380 --> 02:00:44,880
I maintain a political Facebook page and then my personal one.

1514
02:00:44,880 --> 02:00:52,880
But Steve Barger on Facebook, I'm Dad Bod Runs on Instagram.

1515
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:58,880
I've loved playing and embracing the dad bod thing and staying away from the stereotypical dad bod over the years.

1516
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:01,580
And it was just a funny thing to have.

1517
02:01:01,580 --> 02:01:09,180
And again, on LinkedIn and I try to get the message out every chance I get about my own challenges in the past and overcoming them.

1518
02:01:09,180 --> 02:01:17,680
So everybody knows that, you know, one bad decision or a bad situation in your life does not have to define who you are today.

1519
02:01:17,680 --> 02:01:19,880
Well, I want to thank you so much firstly for that.

1520
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:23,780
Like I always say, the courageous vulnerability, this is truly what a man is.

1521
02:01:23,780 --> 02:01:27,280
Someone that can, you know, obviously run into a burning building or towards gunfire,

1522
02:01:27,280 --> 02:01:32,680
but also have compassion and empathy, whether it's towards the school children under their,

1523
02:01:32,680 --> 02:01:42,080
you know, their watch or just have the simple humility and compassion to talk about their own struggles and then become a beacon of light for others as well.

1524
02:01:42,080 --> 02:01:46,480
So between that 24 72, all the things, it's been an incredible conversation.

1525
02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:52,980
So I want to thank you so much being so generous with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

1526
02:01:52,980 --> 02:01:54,180
Yes, sir. Thank you for having me.

1527
02:01:54,180 --> 02:01:58,880
And I just want to point out the positive effects that you're having as well.

1528
02:01:58,880 --> 02:02:07,880
There's a lot of fire departments in Florida where you're located that have signed on to the 24 72s and the work that you have done throughout your career in the fire department.

1529
02:02:07,880 --> 02:02:12,880
And now with your podcast and your show and your advocacy for all of us, thank you for doing that.

1530
02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:29,880
I think that you are creating results that even you probably don't even see at this point and that you're doing a great job.