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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
Army veteran,
Assistant Fire Chief of Operations, and the man behind Fire Dog Consulting, Johnny Torgerson.
Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his early life, his journey into the military,
his powerful 9-11 story, the cross pollination into the fire department that protects the military on the civilian side,
the recruitment crisis,
forging teams,
culture, and so much more. Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen to this on,
subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of over
1,000 episodes now, so all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you
Johnny Torgerson. Enjoy.
Well, Johnny, I want to start by saying thank you so so much for taking the time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yeah, you're very welcome, and it's actually a privilege and honor.
I reached out to you just because I was, I just loved what you're doing.
And so I'm the one that's honored to be here with you today, James.
Well, it's going to be a great conversation.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you your morning, my afternoon?
I am in Southern California, live in Yucca Valley, and yeah, been here for last 11 years.
So let's start the very beginning of your timeline then.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?
Yeah, I was I was born in Downey, California, but I grew up in Orange County, lived there my entire childhood.
And I was I don't know if any most of your audience, what age range that you're in.
But if you think Mr. Rogers neighborhood, that's that's what I grew up in, like leave it to beaver style.
It was your prototypical suburban area, middle class with kids my age riding bicycles down the street and spending a night at each other's house and playing sports together.
And and all those beautiful things.
Both my parents were working class people.
My dad was an electrician by trade and my mother was a credit manager and they did well for themselves and raised me in a Christian household.
And yeah, it was your prototypical what you would expect to think of American family.
Whereabouts in Orange County?
I was in off of Anaheim.
I went to Lowara High School and Lowara Elementary.
And yeah, it was just a nice suburban area.
There's plenty around.
It's funny how big that how big it is.
But you still know everybody like I would as I got to become a teenager and I'm driving around.
You pull up next to a stoplight and you knew people that were pulling up next to you.
And even though there's hundreds of thousands of people in this city, it becomes really small, really fast.
So I can only imagine for my children growing up in a 25,000 or so.
I worked for Anaheim Fire for a few years and it's such an interesting, diverse city.
And obviously there's some places that are super affluent, super safe.
And then there's some some areas that are kind of gangland territories that obviously in the first responder profession, we see the other side of Anaheim.
Historically, it was originally a German settlement.
And obviously it's got quite a diverse array of cultures now.
What was that kind of diversity when you were growing up?
Well, and so I know exactly what you're talking about.
It's funny.
In one part of town, it was literally like you would if you stepped across one side of the street, you were in suburban, you know, affluenced areas.
You put it and then you would go across the street and it was a completely different area, not not affluent, very stressed social demographically.
It was a poor area and it was just this the the difference that the starkness is startling to where you're like, how is this?
How is this even possible?
It never made sense to me, you know, growing up and seeing that.
But yeah, there's there's definitely pockets of it and sometimes just even across the street from each other.
When I say across the street, I don't mean like, you know, like a residential street.
I mean, like a main, you know, like a main thoroughfare street.
And so, yeah, where I was, it wasn't very diverse, I would say.
It is now for sure.
Like when I go back there, it is just a completely different city.
But just growing, growing up there in the 80s and early 90s, it was not not as a diverse a place it is now.
Interesting. What about sports and exercise?
What were you playing and doing back then?
Yeah, so it's funny.
And I think this is going to lead to some of our conversation, James.
So I grew up as a latchkey kid and for anybody in the audience that doesn't know what that means, it means you were a 90s and 80s kid.
But most importantly, it means that your parents were working and you basically took care of yourself until your parents got home.
So from the moment you, you know, were getting up in the morning to go to school, they were probably already at work.
And so you're getting yourself ready.
I walked myself to elementary school, junior high and high school until I got a car.
When I came home, it was up to me to do my homework and me to entertain myself and keep myself out of trouble.
And then when my parents finally get home at, you know, seven, eight o'clock at night because they're working in L.A. or whatever, then it was dinner time.
And a lot of times they're even just too tired to like cook.
And so, you know, I ate out at restaurants most of the time.
And so that was that was that latchkey lifestyle.
And so it just it made for a certain type of person, I think.
And I think many people that were 80s kids, 90s kids can resonate with this story because, you know, it was just it was life.
And so that bleeds into our our generational culture that we have and why I think we're seeing some frustrations with how we were raised and how we handle things versus some newer generations that weren't raised that way.
That were the parents were very much more involved in their lives.
And and I think that's just a reaction of being like a latchkey generation.
My generation on 43, you take a different parenting approach because you always try and make fill the gaps that you didn't have, you know, or the gaps that were present in your life and that that makes for a different parent.
That makes for an entirely different generation of kids.
And so, yeah, I don't I don't know if I answered your question on that, James.
I think I went on a tangent. What was your question again?
No, it was about that's fine. We'll stay on tangent for a second and we'll go back. It was about sports and exercise.
But with that, I know you're fine. So I grew up on a farm.
So I was it was kind of a weird latchkey situation because we were feral kids.
Basically, there was five of us, so we kind of raised ourselves and there were adults in the process.
But, you know, we really were going to like a farm that I'm borrowing that I'm stealing it.
You may not get credit for it, but, you know, we had to cook for ourselves.
We had to, you know, make breakfast. We had to do the homework and all the things.
Just like you said, we had to do our laundry. We had to make our beds. And don't get me wrong.
I will put this out there. There were times where people were, you know, housekeepers and people who came in cleaning people.
That definitely helped as well. So we had shepherds for the feral kids. We were we were herded sometimes.
But, you know, I grew up on a farm. So I we had a vegetable garden.
We had an orchard where there were apple trees and plums.
And, you know, there was times where our poultry and sheep became our food.
And so it's when you have this kind of very judgmental thing about kids today, I always point to the same thing about my upbringing.
Imagine if I then got on an ivory tower and started talking about, well, if people just got up and went for a run and ate good food, they could be like me.
Well, I was raised on a farm in England.
So imagine if you were raised in the Bronx and the bodega was the only kind of exposure you had to food whatsoever.
That's not an apples to apples comparison. So I think just tagging onto what you were saying, a lot of this has probably come from a good place.
But maybe we've kind of overcompensated on making sure that we were there for our children.
And that has taken away some of those life skills and some of that simple exposure to discomfort that we had innately in our childhood.
You hit the nail on the head.
I think it's something that when it comes to dealing with people and the struggles that they have, especially in the leadership realm,
that it's very easy to project your own thoughts, your own feelings, your own upbringing, all those all those different things onto people that didn't just have any of those experiences.
And then question why they're not doing things or they don't think the way you think and they don't react the way you react.
And so that's what stirs a lot of what I talk about in my presentations and conferences and stuff like that.
And I think the key point of the book is we got to think differently.
We got to lead differently to what this this new generation of people truly need.
And and a lot of that stems from just having a completely different childhood,
a completely different way about going about life before they got into the working world.
And they're dealing with that and they're dealing with it as well because they're dealing with someone that is completely different than how they were treated and raised.
And so these these two worlds collide and it and it creates an environment in a lot of different places where there's animosity, friction, butting heads, no trust, lack of communication.
And that starts to affect the mental health. And if you're if you're at work half the time and and that's toxic and then you go home and you're dealing with a bazillion different issues that we all face that none of us are are pervious to.
Where is the reprieve?
And so I think that's why you and I are having this conversation today. It's it's taking that reactive approach as a leader and understanding that and you being the light as a leader and not being reactive to things that are going on in someone's life.
And now they can't be the same firefighter, the same police officer, the same nurse that they've always been.
And I think it's our duty when you as soon as you step up and say, hey, I'm going to be a leader.
You're there to help transcend those things.
Take them beyond of when I say transcend what I'm talking about is how someone would normally react in a situation, but your influence helps them move beyond what they would normally do in a positive way.
So that's where we can help. That's where we can take a proactive approach to this stuff where we can guard against ninety five percent, ninety percent.
Now I'm making up numbers anecdotically, but a mass majority of issues people have by just having a psychologically safe environment where people are taking care of like family and it man.
It sure helps. I'll tell you that I've seen it.
I've experienced it. And that's why I'm excited about talking about this stuff with you today, James.
You just made me think of something a different way that I've talked about a lot, which is, you know, when you and I enter the fire service, there was no questioning about, you know, work hours and mandatory over time.
It was just, you know, nine eleven happened and, you know, back draft and ladder forty nine and, you know, let's go get this.
And what I'm hearing now, and I think this is an absolute positive of these young people. This is probably a good indication.
A lot of them have been raised well by parents who really made sure that they were present or hopefully they were present because now the currency of time at home, time with family, quality relationships is paramount to this new generation.
And when we went blindly in and it's devolved to the point where we have this recruitment crisis and, you know, in 20 years, no one's really questioned why we work the number of hours that we do.
And, you know, then as it starts getting worse, you know, the more and more overtime that's put on our first responders at a left in uniform, I think this this this next generation is kind of like a revolution to get it back to where it should be.
And because we were so used to being latchkey, feral, you know, life is just what it is. We didn't have the capacity to question it the way that this new generation does.
So I think that is a two way street. And this lack of demand for the fire service is because this new generation understand what is most important.
And that is physical health, that is mental health, and that is time with their family.
James, oh my gosh, preach, brother, that that is exactly it. That is exactly it. And so I'll share a conversation with that said, I'll share a conversation I had with my captain yesterday.
And it was about this theme. And it goes into what you're talking about.
This over these last few decades,
because the parents were so much more involved, which they should be. And I'm that guy. And I'm sure you are too.
Where you make all the recitals, you're there for you're a coach for one of their teams, you're present, you're engaged.
And so what happens is when these same individuals, they go to work, especially in a first responder industry,
they're used to people kind of dictating their day. For example, when you and I were children, we set our own schedule.
All right. Today, I'm going on the monkey bars at three o'clock. I got a friend that wants me to come over at five.
I'll see if I can get some meal in there somewhere.
They're just like you. Like there was no one telling you, hey, soccer practice at five, get your homework done by three, which is, you know, how I raise my kids and many of my constituents, how they raise their children.
And so when they get into a firehouse or a police station and they're told to, hey, you know, make your day like you need to plan accordingly, you need to be a self starter.
Some of those skills just aren't there. And here's the important thing.
And that is when it comes to them being away from their family, we have to create a family environment.
And this is why I loved what you were saying is it's such a huge value for them that if you're not creating a family type atmosphere at work,
they don't want to do it because it reminds them they're not with their family.
That is that is a huge value that we're seeing in the fire service that we are not adapting to.
We need to make sure that when we are developing teams, engine teams, ladder companies, that those teams look like family.
They don't look like work teams. They look like actual teams of family.
And that's what the book that I wrote really emphasizes.
And it's how to get there. Like you can say that, but you have to have processes to get there.
And so one of the things, a part of that process that I want to share with your audience that I was talking to my captain about is knowing that their days were dictated for most of their life.
You need to also do that as a captain is as weird as that sounds. And here's and here's the big piece.
It's the downtime because when it comes to team building, when you train, that's where you grow as a team.
When you go on calls, that's where you work as a team. But downtime, that's where you become a team.
And so you'll you'll see captains say like, oh, my firemen, they just go into the rooms and they play video games during the downtime.
Like they just, you know, they just kind of isolate themselves. And what I was expressing to my captain was like, yeah, the reason why that's happening is because you're not being intentional about their downtime activities.
They're not used to that. They're not used to, you know, here's an example like me as a firefighter.
I'm sure you can relate. Downtime activities were dictated by the firefighters. So like what we were going to eat that night, us as the group would be like, hey, we're going to do pasta and like, oh, let's play some over the line out back behind the fire stage.
Just some basketball. Let's play some cards. Hey, what movie are we watching tonight? The firemen came up with that and we would hang out with each other because we were all latchkey kids and we would make up our schedule.
And we weren't waiting for our quote unquote parents, the captains, to tell us, you know, what we're going to be doing. Well, now you look at it.
The firemen don't do that. They're now obviously there's always rules to this exception or exceptions to these rules. But for the most part, what I see is none of that happening.
They just kind of go do their own thing unless told otherwise. And so what I explained to my captain is, hey, you need to be just as vigilant about downtime activities and thoughtful for that stuff as you are for the high performance stuff.
And when you do that, now you're going to be developing a team because outside of that, you're not developing relationships. You're not going to get them out of their room.
You are not going to have influence over how they think and how they live and how they behave unless you're present. And they're not going to do that on their own.
That's not how they were raised. They were raised on in a family type environment. So guess what? You got to be dad.
I mean, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense. I just mean that in the loving sense. And so and so, yeah, that's where we need to adapt our leadership and create that family environment that they are missing.
Because if you don't create the family environment, they're going to quit or they're going to have some some issues coming to work every day.
You've reminded me as well. We forget that a lot of these new recruits were either in high school or I think the worst.
Yeah, I feel the most sorry for the kids that literally graduated during covid. So you all you've known because you can't think back really prior to elementary.
So all you've known your entire existence is Monday to Friday. I get up, I sit at this desk for six, seven, eight hours and then I come home.
So then they graduate high school and they immediately come into an environment where they're told we want you to isolate.
We don't want you around your family or your friends play video games, you know, binge watch Tiger King, get fast food delivered to your house.
And there's no work for you. And then, you know, 18 months of being shamed as a potential murderer for any of your grandparents.
Now, what's wrong with you? Stop being a piece of shit. Get out there and get a job.
So we cut the legs off a lot of these generations that are entering the first responder professions now.
So we've got to also factor that in that we've then got to show them what it like what it's like to be in the workforce because there was this massive wedge
driven between a lot of these young people between their high school experience and their work experience.
Yeah. And so what I what I hear you saying, James, is we have a multi layered issue.
You have the group that grew up in a very family orientated environment.
They weren't latch key kids. They were, you know, just your prototypical American lifestyle and but very engaged parents.
And then you have another group that maybe didn't have that childhood.
They were more, you know, like you said, the video games kind of the whole like isolated,
not as much social skills because, you know, it wasn't going outside and hanging out with friends.
It's going straight home and, you know, hanging out on the computer.
And then all of a sudden they need to be they're put in the social environment of the first responder world where it doesn't matter if you're a nurse,
police officer, EMT, paramedic, firefighter, their team environments, their social environments.
And so there's a lot of social constructs there. And I think it's easy to forget that those are formative years,
especially formative years on how to be an adult and the stuff that we were able to without having that in our lives,
be able to process all that stuff and learn from it and develop specific skills, nuanced skills that you just take for granted because it just,
you know, it was just it happened organically.
There was no thought process when that when that stuff happens passively and there's no real thought process to it.
You don't really reflect on it. And when you don't reflect on things, you don't gain wisdom from it.
And so looking back on it and seeing what they went through, it is something that we need to keep at the forefront of mind.
I think it's a good point that you bring up.
Well, let's go back to your timeline then.
Firstly, the sports. We never got the answer for that.
So what were you playing and doing? Yeah. Yeah.
So as far as sports, because I was a latchkey kid, I didn't do a lot of formalized sports.
It was like park and rec sports where I can basically sign myself up for like, oh, they're doing baseball at the park.
I call myself up, bring the permission slip home.
But anything where I need like parents to drive me to like games and stuff like that wasn't even one.
And I was like, whatever reason, I always felt like I was bugging my parents by asking that stuff.
And they were loving parents. They would have did it. That's the whole thing.
I didn't figure it out until later on in life, because all I had to do was ask.
But it was always just this mentality of like, well, I'm not going to ask for anything because I don't need it.
Like, I'm not going to. It was this this mind frame of self-sufficiency.
And there was no there was no reason for it.
They didn't tell me that stuff. They didn't like subliminally like, you know, try and get me to think that way.
It just happened. And so like, yeah, I never asked to like do that stuff.
I didn't want to put my parents out. And so so, yeah, I did a lot of parks and rec stuff.
But what my parent, my dad did do is he put me in karate very young.
I was I did karate probably most of my childhood into my teenage years.
And then I got into grappling kung fu, sensei, what they would call like MMA these days.
It was kind of like a precursor of that. And then and then when I got into high school,
that's when I did the wrestling and water polo and swimming.
And I was in high school sports all four years. But when it comes to sports, I I didn't I enjoyed them.
But I wasn't like as passionate about them as like a lot of kids were.
And so for me, it was more of, you know, going to work and hanging out with my friends
as opposed to, you know, just kind of throwing myself in sports.
Well, that's another important point when we're unpacking, you know, this new generation.
And I've had this conversation with a lot of people that have been athletes, that have been coaches
is as America has progressed, there's been a regression in the ability for a kid
to simply go to a playing field and play sports. Now, you know, you have to pay, you have to travel balls.
I just paid like almost a grand and a half for my son to play volleyball for four months.
I don't have that kind of money, you know, and we're barely making it happen.
I can't imagine how many people aren't playing sports because they simply can't afford it or they simply can't
get the transportation to all these crazy places versus, you know, the 80s kids.
Like when I was growing up, you know, you go to the park, you throw down a jumper, you know, make two jumpers or make a goal.
Now you've got a football pitch, you know, no one needs to be paid.
And even the local sports centers are very, very, very inexpensive.
So you could swim, you could play badminton, you could play roller hockey.
All the facilities were there. And this is one thing I've seen as well.
You know, kids these days kind of rolling your eyes and say, yeah, some of these kids,
the environment simply does not encourage a child to play and move and even, you know, have fun playing a sport.
If you play sport, you've got to drill and you've got to go to fitness camp and you've got to go travel ball.
And a lot of these kids, the fun of a sport is almost like squeezed out of them as well.
Wow. Yeah, that's super insightful.
It's funny you bring up just kind of making your own, you know, sports field
because of growing up in that Mr. Rogers neighborhood and having a bunch of kids my age,
we would always have like a new theme every summer.
Like this summer, like we're into roller hockey and I would go ask my parents,
hey, can you buy me some roller hockey skates and some sticks and balls and nets?
And my dad would make a net or whatever.
And that's how we played sports. We literally just play against each other.
And then, you know, the next summer would be skateboarding and then it would be like bikes.
And then we got into motorcycles.
We would always be playing football.
In fact, playing backyard football with my friends ruined playing regular football.
So I went to join the football team in high school as a freshman.
And then I found out they had like plays.
Like you couldn't just run down the field and just get open
and see where the holes were in the defense and have the quarterback throw it to you.
No, I had to like run to a certain spot and the ball didn't always come to me.
And so I was like, this is garbage.
And so playing backyard sports actually ruined regular sports.
And so I think that's why I stuck to those individual sports.
You know, I really enjoyed wrestling.
I really enjoyed swimming.
I did do water polo, but that was because I was already a good swimmer
and the coach kept saying like, hey, come join water polo, come join water polo.
But I really was gravitated to the individual sports because then I could do whatever I wanted.
And there was no plays. There was just, you know, me against you.
What about career aspirations during school age?
Were you thinking of the military by that point or was there something else?
No, absolutely not. So my dad, he would ask me on a regular basis,
he said, what are you going to do with your life?
Like you need to come up with a plan.
And when you come up with whatever you want to do, you need to have laser like focus on it.
And I always didn't have an answer for him. I don't know what I want to do.
You know, at a young age, I wanted to be a paleontologist.
I wanted to like, because I love dinosaurs.
But, you know, going through junior high and high school, Mr. C&D student,
I knew that was just that was not happening for me. I was not going to be a paleontologist.
So those aspirations died real quick on the vine.
But I did have this pressure and good pressure, mind you.
I want to make sure I qualified that I had this pressure from my dad to make a decision.
And so I'm getting close to graduating and I still didn't have a decision.
And it's not. And here's the reason why I didn't have a decision is I didn't put a lot of thought into it.
It wasn't something I was like, oh, man, like, and I'm just like paralysis by analysis.
That's not the situation that's happening here.
What's happening is I'm playing sports. I'm having fun in life.
I'm dating and I'm hanging out with friends and just live my best life.
And then I have this like adulthood that is approaching really fast.
And so it's getting close to graduating. And I'm like, you know what I want to do?
You know what? Firefighting seems cool.
And that was as much thought as I put into it.
It was like that seems like something I can get into and do.
And but the one part of the advice that I did take was one having the two parts to it,
one having a plan before getting out of high school and then delays alike focus.
I didn't think of how hard it was to get into the firefighting career, nor did anybody tell me.
I wasn't raising, you know, a first responder family like a lot of people are that are in this job field.
And and so I'm going through the academy and the pre-reqs for the academy, I should say.
And I get this phone call and it's from an army recruiter.
And he says, hey, son, what are you doing with your life?
And I am not interested. I like I already have this goal.
This is what I'm doing. I've already been working towards it for a little bit.
And then he asked me this question that was the timing was so perfect that I answered honestly.
And he said, well, how long is it going to take you to become a firefighter?
And it just so happened I was in a college course.
It was a fire behavior course.
And the captain, the captain from Corona, had said, hey, the average age and I never looked it up,
but he's throughout the statistic there, he said the average age for a firefighter to become a firefighter in California is 28.
Well, I graduated at 17. I barely turned 18.
And so, you know, that was 10 years away.
He's after saying this, though, I remember distinctly saying, I'll beat that statistic.
And you're like, no, I'll crush that thing. I'm going to get hired in the next few years.
But it was always in the back of my mind that that was the worst case scenario was, you know, hey, this could be a 10 year thing.
And so when he asked this question, I answered him honestly, I was like, well, they're telling me it could take up to 10 years, but that's fine.
Like, I'm going to do it. He's like, what if I told you that in the next six months you can be back on the back of a fire engine, you know, going on 911 calls.
And in the meantime, you know, we'll pay for your schooling and give you a good career and pay for you and all that jazz.
I was like, well, I'll see you in your office. And so, you know, he sold me, you know, it was like, all right, well, let me go see what this guy has to say.
And, you know, it was appealing to be a fireman in six months instead of 10 months. And he was absolutely right.
I went to the fire academy and six months later I was in this surreal moment thinking back to that conversation with the recruiter and I'm back of a fire engine going to my first call.
And I'm thinking, I cannot believe I'm here. I cannot believe this is happening right now.
So that was 2000. Yes, that was 2000.
So walk me through, you're not only a firefighter, but you're a firefighter in the military. What was your 911 story? What was that day through your eyes and how did that change things around you?
Yeah. I mean, everyone has their 911 story, right?
Which is why I love this question. I love asking people this question because it says so much. And so this is actually fun.
But, yeah, I was I was actually in New York State at the time. And so I was in the exact same time zone.
And we were deploying on a friendly mission. It was what they call Operation Bright Star.
And so when you go on these missions, there's a workup.
And so we were in headquarters, our entire. So I was on a deployable fire unit to give some context.
And so we were in headquarters and we were getting briefed on terrorist activities, like how to like, you know, spot these things.
How do you, you know, react to them, all that stuff.
And so it was just ironic that we were in this like terrorist training for this workup. And so when in the middle of this this briefing,
an officer runs in and is like, hey, a bomb just went off with one of the towers.
And we're thinking, OK, this is a scenario and they're seeing how we need to react.
And so we literally blew this guy off. And we're all enlisted folks in here.
And so we're just and this is a pretty high ranking officer running in and telling this.
But that's not that's not like usually how officers react. It's not usually how officers carry themselves.
There's this presence and what you do things in those positions.
And so we just thought it was all part of the acting and whatnot. So at first we blew him off.
But then, you know, we very quickly found out that he was serious and he put it up on the big screen TV.
And we see it happening. And so we were just released.
And so we all went back to our headquarters and we watched the second one fly into the tower.
And that experience was crazy. And here's the reason why this might blow some socks off of people.
There was there was people crying. I was one of them. I started crying. I was angry at the same time.
There was arguing that was happening there.
Some of the firefighters started fighting each other.
It was a very, very chaotic scene while all this was happening.
And so immediately we our NCOIC calls up our headquarters like, hey, we want to go.
We go and send us. We're all we got all our stuff.
We're ready to rock. And it just so happened that the days prior they had already put all of our stuff in connexes to be shipped over to go to Egypt.
And so they were basically like, no, this workup is still happening.
If we didn't have your stuff, you know, already packed up, we would send you guys right now.
But we're too far into the process. You're not going.
And so I always look back on that like, oh, man, like, man, I wish I was a part of that.
But here's the thing is God's good. At the end of the day, I wound up being protected from that.
You see so many firefighters dying from cancer. The PTSD that came out of that.
Now, mind you, if I were to choose and do it all over again, I would still do it.
But with that said, there would have been consequences to that.
And we're seeing those consequences live out in a very real way today.
That is heart wrenching for the people who did answer the call just the same way that we wanted to answer that call.
And and fate had a different answer for that.
And so, yeah, that's my 9 11 story.
We wound up going to Egypt and being there while they were still looking for people.
You mentioned about deployable units, this is kind of backtrack for a moment, because that sounds like a pretty unique group to be in that you your bunker gear, even your rigs are being shipped to different places in the world.
So what does that look like? What would be a kind of job description of that unit?
Yeah. So what would happen is the military would create what we call fobs, like Ford operating bases that they're they're they're in the the the area, but they're not in like the hot zone.
Right. And so in those in these areas, you know, people are still getting hurt.
There's fires that can still break out. There's rescues. You know, people are still rolling over humvees and stuff like that.
And so they the armed services make up these deployable fire units to take care of the troops.
And so you're you're there, you know, deployed with them and doing the same activities.
And so, you know, there's a little bit more logistics there, which is what you were alluding to. And that is you're creating your own fire station and SOPs based on the area that you're at and the units that are there and the vehicles that are there.
And so there's a lot that goes into it. And then what happens is you just do that for a while, like six months, let's say, and then a more permanent type system comes in, whether that's civilians.
That's why you'll have like Kellogg, Brown and Root and Halliburton, Lackin Hut. They'll come in with civilians and they start taking the place of the military guys so they can be deployed to the next one.
And so that's, you know, that's a very simplistic way of explaining it, but that's how it works.
What were the extrication challenges of vehicles like humvees?
Yeah. And so any whether it's a tank, a Humvee, they all present different challenges.
But it's the same challenges that, you know, the fire service faces today and that is just pre-planning, understanding, you know, where your cutout spots are, where you can cut, where you can't cut, and just, and then also having a plan A plan B plan C, just like we do in anything on the fire service.
Like there's one thing about doing extrication or whatever, a drill, and you're in the perfect situation. But as we know, when it comes to vehicle accidents, they're not set up like the tow yard where you have this like pristine vehicle and like, okay, do a B-pose blowout and everything's like great.
No, like you lose pinch points, like you lose stability and structures that you would normally have on the A-pose B-pose because they've been weakened.
And so, you know, plan A plan B plan C. So it was attacked very much the same way as you would attack any other type of, you know, extrication.
So 9-11 happens, obviously there is a military response to arguably the right country and then a completely different country around the same time.
Did you find yourself deployed in other combat zones and were there any kind of interesting, you know, calls rescues from those?
Yeah, so once again, as fate would have it, right before I leave to go on this assignment, I get orders. Actually, me and a buddy of mine, he's actually my best friend in the entire world.
We get orders together at the time. We weren't best friends in the entire world. We were just, you know, acquaintances, friends, but we wind up following each other everywhere.
And so we had only been at Fort Drum about a year, a little over a year, and we already got orders to another duty station. So it was kind of unheard of.
And so as soon as I got back from Operation Bright Star, I was already shipping out to go to another base. And so was my buddy. And so that deployable unit immediately, like what you're talking about, got deployed into the war zone.
And, you know, they did their thing, did some amazing things over there. But I wasn't a part of that. I went to Fort Wainwright and Fort Wainwright was a garrison unit.
And so I was basically a military firefighter working essentially as a civilian. And so, yeah, I missed out on on being able to being a part of that journey that the rest of, you know, my my friends and buddies in that deployable unit got to do.
You don't really hear stories of army firefighters certainly out, you know, the Middle East, obviously, is where where the most of the trouble was.
Are there any kind of notable tales, folklore, etc, of the heroism rescues of, you know, your peers in some of these? Because I don't think I've ever heard of had an Air Force firefighter on but usually they're, you know, more often than not domestic, they're protecting the airports.
But to have a unit that's actually deployed, you know, in these fobs, as you said, you know, what are some of the stories that you heard throughout the years of some of the heroism of your people?
Yeah, so I don't have any for you actually. And the reason being is I think it's like, I think the phenomenon is when it comes to firefighting, it's it becomes part of the job.
And so like you think about all of the rescues you've done and been a part of, there's no books on it. There's no stories on it.
It's just, it's your everyday like, hey, this is what we do. And so I think it's it's very much the same way for these army units that get deployed.
There's no big headlines and stories that that come out of this stuff. It's it's Monday, you know, basically, it's Tuesday.
And and it's not to downplay anything they're doing. It's just it's what we do every single day.
A lot of these stories that that make the headlines. I really think they're grab bag stories like you can.
You can just, you know, pick a day in in L.A. or New York and pick a call and find some awesome things that these firefighters are doing.
And so I think it's very much the same thing with these deployable units. They're doing a lot of good stuff out there.
But I don't have any like anything of notoriety for you.
No, that's a good answer, though. I mean, I think you're absolutely right.
And even when I wrote my books, the first one, One More Light was basically writing for the other 99 percent that just, you know, weren't at the World Trade, weren't at the Vegas shooting.
But day in, day out, just like you said, they're doing incredible things. But our baseline is what we all do, the same kind of thing.
So it doesn't seem special. And I'd agree. You know, it isn't special.
I think anyone who walks around, you know, you see him a lot on National First Responders Day, which is today.
And all of a sudden they're posting pictures of themselves like those guys, we know, tell people about their own heroism.
But the rest of us, you know, are just going about our business. And it's just what we do.
It's not who we are. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely.
All right. Well, then progressing on, how soon was it that you found yourself protecting the Marine base in Barstow?
Is that right? Yep. Yep. So being in the military, it gets you used to kind of moving around.
It just becomes part of your life. And so after I got out of Wainwright and went to another installation just north of Wainwright, it's called Fort Greeley.
And I was there for a little bit and worked as a fireman there as a civilian.
I got out of the military and that which I still I wouldn't say regret, but it was foolhardy for me to get out of the military so quickly.
I was just so the military and being a firefighter was a means to an end and that was to become a civilian firefighter.
And that's the whole reason why I joined.
And what I found out is after leaving the military, how much I really enjoyed being in the military.
Like, I didn't stop and think like, oh, man, how much do I truly enjoy this? It was just like laser like focus.
I was like, hey, here's my goal. This is what I'm doing. There's no thought into doing anything other.
But once I got out, I really started missing. But I had great fondness of being in the military.
And so anyways, I got out of the military and became a civilian firefighter for the DOD and went to Fort Greeley.
And then from there, I went to Ingleside, which is in Corpus Christi, Texas, worked there for a little bit.
And then I got a phone call from where I work now. Like, hey, we saw your application.
Would you like to come work for us? You know, if so, you got a job.
And so I'm from obviously from California. So I asked the wife was like, hey, I want to go back to Cali.
And she's like, yeah, absolutely. So came back here.
And in the midst of working here, I had a buddy that worked overseas for Halliburton.
He's like, hey, we're making really good money here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I wanted to open up a business and I didn't have two pennies to rub together.
And so in order to make money, you got to have money. And so the money called and I was like, all right, I won.
I like being deployed, like doing like traveling and I can make lots of money and then I come back.
I can open business. It all appealed to me. And so, yeah, so I went overseas and worked in Uzbekistan a little bit.
And then but before I left, I had a meeting with the fire chief and I said, hey, I love working here.
I love this department. I'm merely I'm not leaving your department.
I'm I'm just going to make some money to come back. Will you hire me back if I want to, you know, when I get done?
And and he said he would. And so I was I was appreciative of that because when I came back, he always reminded me,
you're the only person I've ever brought back. And so, you know, I always, you know, appreciated him for that.
He didn't have to do that. And so so, yeah.
So I went overseas a little bit, came back and I've been here ever since.
One of my friends said that to I don't know if he got a leave of absence or not. I forget.
But yeah, people they were a couple of actually from Orange County.
So it might be a leave of absence, but they were welcome back, both of them as well.
So I think it's a good thing. You know, you go get some unique experiences.
You can bring it back to the department and maybe teach them something, too.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it did gave me it gave me the opportunity to to open up a business and and do all that stuff.
And so, you know, it was it was worth it in the end.
And I'm glad I got that experience and gave me those type of experiences also help you when things get hard at the firehouse.
And here's what I'll say about that.
You could there's there's a stark difference between some of our firefighters that have experience in other departments
that have buddies in other departments that have a bigger view of how the fire service works
than those that this is their first, you know, this is their first fire job.
They don't have a lot of friends outside of that that work other places.
They kind of just kind of live in the silo.
So when things that are hard that happen at the firehouse or in the department that are their challenges,
they don't have quite the perspective that others might have like, oh, hey, you know what?
This is this is nothing compared to this.
You know, and those type that those type of perspectives help because there's so many that have it worse.
And so when you when you live in those type of silos and you don't have those type of experiences, it's easier to fall prey to toxicity.
And so I think it's helped me just in a lot of different regards, but especially in that regard,
when things have gotten rough at the firehouse organizationally is what I'm talking about.
I was able to kind of see the forest through the trees.
That siloed element, I think, is one of the real enemies of progress.
And obviously, we're going to talk about leadership more.
But because I had a gypsy career in the fire service, I started just outside of Miami and Hialeah,
then went Anaheim for a few years and then Orange County by Orlando.
And then the really creek was the last one.
You know, I within that mix East Coast, West Coast, a very, very financially poor department and one of the wealthiest in the states.
I would argue on the best one, the worst. They're all in that mix.
And so it gave me this very unique perspective.
But it also showed me that there's a lot of the issues and a lot of solutions in each of these different departments.
But they just don't talk to each other.
And we have, for example, you know, the IFF and the last administration,
which is the entire time I was a firefighter, did not see any kind of unification or, you know,
bolstering of communication, standardizing of work weeks, none of that stuff.
And so you realize that you've got all these groups.
And sometimes, you know, if it's a bad culture to the point where the city thinks they're better than the county or the county thinks they're better than the city.
And now they're not communicating and police and fire.
And then and you're just looking at it when you when you pull back and go, what is how do we get here?
Like we are one profession that should be united, should be knowledge sharing, should be raising each other up.
And instead, you've got all these little silos and, you know, within some have amazing solutions and amazing leaders.
Some, you know, might be months from not having a fire department anymore.
And so I see that as a real enemy for progress, whether it's innovation in our gear, whether it's just standardizing the route, you know, the frigging work week so we can get our first responders to stop dying.
What has been your perspective because you have this, you know, very unique lens on that very thing that you touched on, the silo element to the American Fire Service?
Yeah, I think I don't know if this will specifically answer your question, but in a roundabout way, at least this is my perspective, James.
And that is we tend to and I mean, all of us to include myself.
We tend to construct these boxes that we put ourselves in.
And I think it happens organizationally, I think it happens in our roles as firefighters, as our roles as leaders, as our role as a parent or whatever, where you copy your predecessors, you whatever you've seen, you do like monkey see monkey do.
I think we've done that in the fire service in a very real way. And I think what has created this huge momentum where we're having a hard time stopping the momentum is we've patted ourselves on the back as these this amazing, this amazing job and we do all these amazing things that we don't have stuff to fix.
And so, obviously, if we if we've done such a good job and, and the public respects us and we're doing all this good work that we don't need to fix anything and I think so along the way, if we're, if we don't have a different mentality to that, then we're, there won't be change if there is no change.
And so, I don't think a lot of us in the fire service have been looking for that because things have gone so well we haven't had a recruiting problem, everyone wants to everyone wanted to be a firefighter, you know like latch key kids were more resilient and so you can throw a bunch of stuff on them
and we didn't have this mental health crisis also we must have been doing everything right. Well no we weren't doing everything right and we're still not doing everything right and so now we're being exposed we're being exposed for working in these silos, like we're
being exposed and thinking about things, how we've done so in a legacy view. And now we have a lot of issues that we got to deal with. And it's because we weren't doing it right.
And we're finding out now that no we haven't been and so my answer to that is, we need to do things differently I know that sounds like a cliche thing to say and a very you know low hanging fruit or do it differently.
And that's what you and I are here to say you know you push a schedule right that is meeting a lot of resistance and you're saying hey no we need to do firefighting differently.
And, and where I'm coming from is the leadership aspect no we need to lead differently.
We can't take these legacy views and keep putting ourselves in this box, because they're just not working. So if we do things differently, and it's not doing things differently for the sake of doing things differently.
It's doing things differently because it's needed. And without that we're going to not even have a fire service one day it'll just be taken over like the post office has taken over been taken over by the United States like our mails delivered by the federal
government like the very same thing can happen with the fire service, not to say we're there yet but if we don't start doing stuff differently.
We will get that it will get to a point where the fire service is just not sustainable anymore, because you don't have, you know, the volunteers that we used to have like you, you don't have the time to, to, to give into all the training it takes like my hat to
every single volunteer that's listening to this between family between your job, sometimes two jobs, and then going to the firehouse and and doing other retraining requirements and running calls in the middle of the night like, God bless you, you know, like that
that is hard and 70% of our country is still volunteers, and so little tangent there but I think it's important to say that we have to think and do things differently. And this is this is why I appreciate, you know, these these mediums where we can have these
conversations, so we can take some novel approaches to how we do this job.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. The, the thing that I've been saying recently is, if the way we were doing it worked, then we wouldn't have this crisis, we wouldn't have a mental health crisis we wouldn't have, you know, struggles just simply finding enough people to fill
the seats in a fire engine, you know, we wouldn't have the cancer and the heart attacks.
And, you know, we wouldn't have the vehicle accidents I mean this this point to that too. And I think if you look back at the legacy, there is so much that we have to be thankful for for our forefathers and foremothers on, you know, the innovation in the fire service
but how many people pushed against SCBAs. How many people pushed against bunker gear, how many people pushed against probably hydraulic tools like oh real man uses a hacksaw. You know what I mean.
We've got to look back at the good stuff and admire and keep that as Bruce Lee said absorb what is useful discard what is useless, you know, but the bury your mental health, and then drown it in alcohol.
That's probably not one that we need to bring through to 2024, you know the key let's keep the schedule the same way as when we only ran fires now we're running EMS 24 seven probably need to fix that one as well.
So it's not about all of it. And like I always point it's not even the job. People say oh it's what you signed up for. No, in fire academy they didn't talk about eight year work weeks and mandatory over time.
They talked about halogens and hoses and ladders and all the thing that was what you signed up for.
And in the northeast they work a 42 hour work week in California, it was 56 same exact job. So it's the work environment that we have to look at and like you said the leadership and the culture, the profession is the profession and it's always been there
and fires will always need to be put out and people always need to be cut out of cars. But do you create an environment that that's a bar high sets training standards high and forges camaraderie.
Or do you have a culture that you just break your people and then throw in another 18 year old into the meat grinder.
Man well well said.
Nothing I can even add to that James that's that's spot on brother.
Well, walk me through your career now so what is the idiosyncrasies of where you work now and protecting that Marine base versus some of the other military roles you held prior.
So, the idiosyncrasies of where I'm at is it.
It's a logistics base. And so it's mostly civilians, and it's a bunch of LCOs large commercial occupancies.
So, and it's in a rural area. And so what it allows us to do is kind of have free reign to whip 911 all over, you know, basically a 200 mile radius. And so, so our guys get to have a lot of fun with that the.
We get to help a lot of other agencies because it's a rural area so there's were surrounded by volunteer departments. There's barstow city that's a professional department that is not like a pay call it's just a you know professional department.
That's right outside the base and so we get to, you know, work with them on a consistent basis but yeah it allows us to help everyone all over the place because of where we're located, and our, and our mission allows for it and so.
Yeah, it's a fun place to work, and it's why I've been there for so long and then on top of that.
The.
It's been one of, it's been like this this kind of like diamond in the Marine Corps that allows for innovation. And so, one thing that I've truly enjoyed about working where I'm at is there's always been this is pushed to be innovative and to try things.
And so because it's given me that vehicle, it's what's kept me around for so long and, and why I've been able to find success of doing things different is because they've, they've given me the environment to do things different the leash, as you will they've given me
a hundred foot leash as opposed to, you know, a tight leash. And so, I've been able to fail fast and fail often, and see what works and doesn't work with, you know, different theories and stuff like that and so we are able to not only innovate.
You know, building teams and stuff like that but organizationally. And so, all those things combined has made it to where I just, I love where I'm at.
Well, I want to get to the book and then we'll talk about you know why you wrote it and some of the solutions that you're bringing.
When you look back at your career though, what were some of the career calls and again that's not what's the worst thing that you've seen but just it might be moments of kindness, you know, anything that really resonated with you through through your career.
Yeah, so I could think one just right off the top my head was.
So you as you know, when you get medical aids at night, and for us, being in a socially economically depressed area.
There's a lot of alcoholism and drug use and stuff like that and so you wind up being the night train, because that's when people do a lot of that stuff. And so, this was we hours of the morning, I would say, and we get another medical aid, and it's
a person who's been drinking all night, and it's just kind of getting irate, and not much of a medical issue there, but was like filling heart palpitations and all this stuff.
And so, we do what we normally do you know you do the workup vitals, oh to monitor IV, and, you know, transport vomit is what they call it right like that you're just your run of the mill call and so we're doing, we're doing our vomit.
And in the midst of this you know I'm talking to the wife and she explains to me that the reason why her husband was drinking is because they just lost their son, and a tragic car accident.
And so she starts, you know, showing me pictures, and just kind of telling me his story. And I showed up to that call, like, oh man, here we go. Another alcoholic. Right.
But I left that call in tears.
Because what I found out what I already knew but it was this was just another reminder is, and I'll say I'll tell more about this call in a second but I do want to explain something real quick and that is most of these calls that we go on, or just calls for
psychological safety, they can drive themselves to the hospital, nine times out of 10 you know they stub their foot or whatever.
We really were showing up because we are a breath of fresh air we are comfort, we are a presence that people want in their life and need in their life, and we're at, we're three numbers away from that, from bringing that to their household.
And so yes, she was obviously worried about her, her husband with him have a medical emergency.
But yeah, could she have driven them to the hospital. Yep.
She could have.
But going back to this call.
She showed she showed me pictures of her son, and then the husband starts talking to me about it and he is just alligator tears are coming down and.
So, I start crying of course and we start talking through that stuff and just being words of giving them words of encouragement being light being positivity in their life and I'm a praying person I'm a Christian and so it gave me an opportunity to to pray for them.
And, and just show love on them something that they, they just needed some love and some comfort. And by the time we had left that it was less of a medical aid and it was more of a mental aid, you know,
there was smiles, and there was some laughs and he wound up not being transported. We canceled the ambulance.
And it stuck out to me and the fact that the impact we made and just that that small, you know, 10 minute interaction that they'll probably remember the rest of their life.
Maybe I know I, I will, just because that's what it's all about. At the end of the day is being a firefighter.
It's not all about, you know, like the bandages and stuff like that. It's actually being there for the human. And, and those are the calls that always, you know, stick out to me it's it's the.
The gnarly extrications I got plenty of those or, or, or structure fires or anything like that it's it's the stuff where things get humanized, and you're really impacting people on a personal level.
And, and so, yeah, so that would be one right off the top of my head.
Beautiful. This is I think you get this a lot and I think this is this is exactly it.
You know, I wrote my first book I wrote one about just a simple back to bed call one of the chapters, but the, the power of restoring a woman in this case dignity by, you know, she's so frail she fell out of bed the husband is so frail now.
He can't pick her up and he was, you know, at one time a very capable man. And she soiled herself, you know, and you go in and you take her in the bathroom you clean her up you get a fresh set of clothes and you put her back to bed.
You know, easy for us to do is it pleasant Of course not it's you know, human feces but you know was it the right thing to do. Absolutely. And those, that's one of the ones I wrote about for the same exact reason.
And with the, the kind of judgmental element which I think this is part of that kind of compassion fatigue conversation.
I remember one of the very first calls I had in my first apartment. We went and it was a person down, you know everyone's groaning and rolling their eyes and I'm naive I don't know why it even you know, created that that response.
We get there and then there's a bunch of police officers around this guy on the pavement.
And one of them female officers kicking him a buddy hey buddy wake up, kick kick kick kick. The other firefighters just kind of continue like complete the circle around this person.
And I was like, well I'm going to go see if we can figure out who he is and why he's lying on the floor. I don't think anyone even checked vitals or anything they could see he was breathing but that was it.
Anyway, so I go through his clothes you know make sure he's, you know, breathing and has a pulse and everything and there's a piece of paper, saying he's just found out he's HIV positive.
So I'm pretty sure I would probably drink if I found out I was HIV positive. Yeah, so you know that origin story and there's a phrase that I absolutely love, people say, don't ask what's wrong with you, ask what happened to you.
Because there's a reason these people are where they are whether I just lost my son or whether I was, you know molested as a child when I was five whatever it is.
And then just suddenly, we're not born to be, you know, whatever a drunk living under the bridge a gang member you know whatever it is. There's an origin story to all of this and if you can remind yourself of that it puts the compassion back in that core.
You know I love that I'm going to remember that one James. What I would add to that too is the empathizing, another way of at least how I've looked at it James and this just parallels what you're saying is when it comes to empathy it's, it's understanding
that you're also that drunk. You just may have had a few things go your way.
Because we're all doing.
For example, going back to 911.
I could I could already be dead right now.
But I just had one event go my way and that is all my bags were packed kind of thing and so I think that that's just a microcosm of many things that happened to all of us in our life. I've made a lot of same mistakes that people in prison make.
But I had a few things go my way.
And so, I don't I don't look down at those people because I am those people.
And so I think as as as people, especially in the fire services first responders is not having this mentality that you're any better than the person you're responding to.
And then that way you can truly treat them how they should be treated.
I think most people do. I'm not sitting here saying like we have this major issue with it. But do you see that on some calls like you just mentioned where there is a lack of empathy and lack of compassion.
I think what it stems from is just forgetting or not acknowledging that you are that person you just had a few things go your way.
There, but for the grace of God go I say, say, that's right.
That's right.
When you reflect back now, you know, obviously people on the show have had a varying spectrum of kind of mental health journeys.
Where was the lowest place that you found yourself because bear in mind you've obviously you know wore many, many uniforms and had a long career and you know, arguably seen some horrible things like a lot of us have.
Did you find yourself at a low point any any part of your journey.
My lowest point it's going to it's super superficial I would say.
My lowest point is probably like maybe some people's high points, to be honest with you and so I only say that to qualify it because if what I'm about to say it'd be like, bro like get out of here like why are you even.
And so I think that's when we say low point, it's, it's truly recognizing that is a very subjective answer. And so yeah, and so my, my low point in life in the career was never calls.
You know because each one of these things there, you know, the little scars and I think that's an important thing it does get talked about and it's these accumulation of these scars, and especially if they're not healed healed properly and you get another scar.
It winds up being a culmination to where you know you do have a mental health crisis.
With.
I guess how my brain is wired it that that phenomenon didn't happen to me.
Now, what I do realize, and I think this is what some of my buddies have a have trouble with is because you know that phenomenon didn't happen to them, you know, however they were, you know latchkey kid or whatever excuse where they're just kind of built differently, or were raised differently or any one of the various variables
that that they didn't have that issue either.
But it is an issue for many people. And, and so I just say that because I want to make sure that what I'm about to say is under that context.
I experienced all the same calls that everyone else has terrible calls. I would say our department sees DBs do ways on on the reg and it's because we we deal with 200 miles of freeway.
And so, it just, it's life for a lot of our firefighters.
And, especially you know when they die.
When you're doing the best you can.
And so we've had firefighters in our department, retire because of it, because it is a hard thing to deal with.
But for me, I didn't, I've never reached low points with that. And I think a lot of that has to do with my faith but that's just my personal opinion.
So my low point was when my identity started to be
trampled on. And that was I remember I was telling you I opened.
I went overseas so I can open business.
And I became very successful at that business.
So successful that you know I started, you know, talking about it with other franchisees like hey this is how you become successful, you know, and I was asked to do that by the by corporate and
what had happened so as a health club, I went to health club as a 24 hour health club and
became one of the top 100 grossing franchisees.
Added their 10,000 that they had at the time I don't know how much they have now.
And so it became part of my identity of like who I saw myself like I was a successful business owner at a very young age and I was a professional firefighter.
And then what happened is success breeds competition and I had this company come into my town. And they were a billion dollar company.
And they literally just mopped the floor with me.
And I'm just I'm very I'm condensing the story down so we can get to the, you know, my lowest point.
I battled them for a few years thinking like I was going to prevail and I didn't.
And and so when I had to liquidate that company and kind of just kind of start all over in life, I literally I thought about ending life for the first time in my life.
It was just like because I was that's what everyone knew me by and then when I wasn't going to be that person anymore.
I was just it looks it looks ridiculous now obviously looking back on it.
But I just I was just kind of done with it all. It's just the accumulation of stress where you're dealing with you're fighting this for two years and you're thinking you're going to prevail and you don't.
And now you're left starting all over again and you don't want to start all over again.
You don't want to you don't want to try and find a new identity.
It put me in a place where I was not good mentally and you know what brought me out of that was my faith.
My faith in Jesus Christ and and so you got to have something you got to have whether you know for me I would I would recommend you know Jesus.
But for those that don't believe that my suggestions you got to have something whether that's therapy where that's family whether that's a hobby.
I don't know. But life is a team sport and if you're trying to do it all by yourself when you reach those eventual lows in your life.
It's because you've you've lost hope and what usually gives you hope is something pulling you out of it.
What gives you hope is when you're drowning and someone you know throws that that life raft over for you.
Or at least what gives you hope is knowing that life raft is coming.
And so you got to have people in your corner you got to have something on its way to help you something that you can reach out towards and and hold on to because without those life rafts without me having a life raft.
I wouldn't be here.
Well firstly you didn't have to do the whole build up to that because that absolutely is a very very dark place anyone that's contemplating ending their life.
That's a you know it's a very low low and you mentioned about the scars I use the phrase death by a thousand cuts.
So you've got all the things early life all the things you've seen in uniform you know and then the guilt and shame of failing and I'm using air quotes now as a business person you know it's it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
That wasn't the entire thing of course it was the the sum of but you know what I think is interesting is there are varying degrees of responses to this you know and as you said some maybe the naysayers who they've always been fine and no I'm just built different.
I would say bullshit like you said you gave a perfect analogy with the 9-11 thing you know Johnny that went to ground zero is different is a different path and Johnny who didn't go to ground zero and I've always said this I've got low but never to that point.
But all the bad shit that happened to me when I was young like I was in a house fire when I was four almost died my sister got us out some other near-death things my parents had a horrible divorce I mean there was lots of things but I grew up on a farm I was you know around a large family so I always had my feral brothers and sisters you know we ate round a kitchen table all the time.
So I felt loved I felt secure and so there was a kind of equal and opposite effect that was just I won the genetic lottery and was born into the gearing family son of a veterinary surgeon on an English farm doesn't make me any way shape or form any better than someone who struggled with their mental health.
You know I just happen to have the things that work early and some of our people are having to find them later in life so you know that would be the first thing is that they say is if you're feeling strong then be the shoulder don't be the judge be the shoulder or the you know for other people to lean on when they're hurrying and pull them up.
But the other question I have for you quickly and then we'll move to the book. One thing that is not discussed when it comes to mental health that's just risen as such a an important topic is that when there is this perfect storm of all the things you know sleep deprivation and the things that we see and unaddressed childhood trauma and you know all the other elements that factor in and the guilt and shame of losing a business.
There is a miss wiring of the brain because as you know all of us I think would acknowledge the body biologically does not want to take its own life there's a shift in our literal you know reality mentally and the one thing I hear over and over again is at that point.
These people that were literally contemplating taking their own life started to hear a voice that they were the reason for their families pain but they were the cause and if they just ended it then their family will be better off did that little voice creep in your mind.
Absolutely.
Because it's a at least what I remember from my mental state at the time was I let down my wife.
I don't know how many times I cried to her and told her you know I apologize like so I had to declare bankruptcy on the business, because it was such a big business and it happened so rapidly.
You know, it puts you in a financial state where it affects your family now mind you, it didn't. I started firefighting job. So like our family was, we just weren't ultra rich anymore we were, you know, just middle class.
So, I want to make sure that's in context like we weren't like about to go on, live on the streets or anything like that which shows you how ridiculous, you know you're, you're not ridiculous, but that's not a good way of putting it but how unrealistic your thoughts can be, or disproportionate.
That's not the right word either.
But you know I'm saying we're basically the way your mental state is, and not having the proper perspective on our family was fine, but I was sitting here crying to my wife that I disappointed or I wasn't feeling like a man.
Yeah.
I felt like I disappointed my wife and my kids, and, and that was a major factor of not wanting, and really what it comes down to is you, it's still, in a way it's still a selfish act and the fact that if I were to be honest with myself.
It was not me not wanting to live with the guilt of letting down my wife.
And, and it that seems like oh man like, why would you think you let down your wife like, you know that stuff happens.
How I'm geared is everything that I literally.
Everything that I do is centered around making my parents proud of my wife proud. And so like, when, when that stuff happens.
It affects that aspect of what I'm doing everything I do in life for. And I'm not saying that's a healthy way to live. I'm not, I'm just saying that's my honest way of how my brain has worked my entire life is
wanting to be the person I should be for those people I love most. And so when I'm not that person.
And then coupled with all the other millions of things.
It makes it to where yeah you feel the guilt, and that's one of the reasons why I felt that guilt and why I had those thoughts. Now, I never got close I never came up with like a plan.
But I did go down that road in my mind.
Well firstly I think that should be one of the front and center things on mental health posters and videos and everything else if you if you start to hear, you know, or believe that you're a burden to the people that you love that's a massive red flag to start
getting help.
Interestingly though as well a lot of people that on here are our generation, and you think about that latch key element.
And I believe our family would have been around us if you go back 100 you know 1000 years ago, you know it takes a village we would be surrounded by people.
The one element of the latch key kids and again not blaming the parents they were just trying to at that point in that environment, keep a roof over our heads and food in our stomachs.
But when your parents aren't there. There's an element of wanting to please them as an element of you know am I good enough, like my parents aren't here you know look at me look at me.
And even subconsciously that that urine to please you hear that and a lot of high performers because subconsciously in the back of their mind.
You know, some of them felt like they weren't good enough for their parents attention. And again, it's not that their parents didn't love them.
But when you work 12 hours a day, and you're literally not gone and you come back and you're exhausted, arguably a lot of us in the fire service do the same thing to our kids.
So it's, it's hard then for that child to feel seen and feel loved. If they're letting themselves out to go to school and then they let themselves back in at the end of the day not seeing their parents.
Yeah, well said.
I'm going to take my Dr. Phil hat off. Let's move to the book then forging your team, so you have this very innovative environment in in Barstow. What was some of the issues that you were seeing as far as you know culture and leadership in the fire service
and then what was the evolution of some of the principles that you came up with.
Yeah, so the environment was very militaristic, and, you know, just what you would, you would see in an authoritarian like environment.
This is, I'm, I'm this rank, and you will do this, and you better do it because you're a firefighter, and it's the right thing to do, and don't question it kind of like that's, that's the that's the environment and I'm not saying it's, I'm not, I don't mean to say that in a negative tone
because that it was appropriate for many years for the time for the culture, all that stuff. Many things are done, because that is what is supposed to do at that time but when times change, and we're still doing that stuff that's where the problem comes in so I make sure I qualify that
and so, yeah, that was the environment and as you and I know what we've talked about extensively here is, as we get new generations of people that environment has to change, and what I saw is my leadership, my department had a problem with changing how it led individuals.
And, and then you couple that with going to school and seeing what the business world is saying that we should be doing as far as leading.
I put those into practice. And what I came up with is, they were both not doing things right, they were both wrong.
Not all of it right you don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but it was an aha moment for me of like, and where the book came from is, yeah, no wonder we're having a mental health crisis, no wonder we're having recruitment and retention problems,
which, you know, we've gone into some great detail about that stuff is, yeah, when we haven't adapted our way we build teams and lead people in the first responder industry. We're going to exacerbate these issues.
And we're going to work its way in a very real way through my organization, where we got to an incredibly low point where it was just a super super toxic environment at my department.
And, lo and behold, I am thrust into a leadership position.
In the beginning of that, or I should say the height of that toxic environment.
And, and so it gave me incredible challenges that I needed to work through and find a new way to lead and and do things differently and so where I come with a unique perspective is, I have a doctorate in strategic leadership.
I'm a successful business owner, and I work through a department where I got to challenge these legacy thinking these legacy views these legacy way of doing business and come up with some ways that are some novel approaches that that I found,
hopefully, there's not research behind this that actually do work.
So unpack some of the principles and.
So, I think.
One of the biggest things that we as leaders in the fire service need to understand is one teams is the entire point of why you lead in the in the fire service doesn't get said enough that leadership gets talked about a lot and it's
talked about so much I think people are just kind of exhausted of it is the sentiment I'm getting now. And the reason why I guess talked a lot is because of how important it is.
But they're hearing the same exact stuff over it's like just regurgitated over and over and over again we talked about working these silos and so you know you read one leadership book you literally read them all, because everyone just kind of repackaging the same things.
And so, what I would like your listeners to understand is the entire point of your existence as a leader in the fire service is to build a team that is it.
The mission will take care of itself. Once you build a team, like Walsh's book the score will take care of itself. His point on that is hey, focus on your team and your people, and you'll win games.
So, for you, as a leader, you need to focus on those direct ports that you have, and actually building a family environment with those direct reports. And when you do that, don't focus on, you know, the mission don't focus on, you know the organization, you know,
focus on your people and this is even for fire chiefs, stop focusing on the organization, you know you need to focus on your deputy chief, your assistant chiefs I don't know your organizational structure but whoever your direct reports are you build a freaking team
with those people. And then guess what, they need to build a team with their direct reports. And if you create a family environment in each layer of the organization.
Magic will happen that I promise you. And so I think the fire service, it is every level, there's a team that you're working on whether it's a command team, a leadership team, or your engine company or, or whatever truck company.
They're all teams, and there's ways to do that. And so that's where I provide some solutions for that.
And so it's the first of all I just want to say that's the mentality is is is understanding there's a team approach that needs to happen that's not happening in the fire service right now.
It's a leadership approach and that is a very shotgun way of trying to solve problems. In fact, you're not going to, you know, like marketing, you market to everybody you market to nobody.
You're trying to lead everybody and lead everything you're leading nobody. You need to lead people that you actually have influence over relational influence over people that can actually be a part of your family as a fire chief.
Stop trying to lead the firefighter. And that's where you're not, you're not even actually in a leadership position you're in a command position when it comes to the firefighter, you're only in a leadership position for that deputy chief.
That's who you're leading. And so we talked about like, this is where like you go to all these conferences and they talk about oh, he's a great leader.
No, he was a good commander for you. You need to ask his deputy chief is if he was a good leader because he wasn't leading you. He had influence over you for sure.
But that type of influence is what matters and that's where, once again, people get confused with leadership, it's influence influence well guess what there's all kinds of different influence it's too.
It's too ambiguous to say influence there's specific leadership influence and I go into it and into the book of self influence proximal influence and distinctive influence and when people talk about leadership what they're really talking about is distinctive influence there's there's qualities of this person that I like that influence me.
For example, I like James he has great characteristics about himself he is a man who gets things done and cares about people. And so I want to be that type of person to right that's influence you've influenced me based on who you are, but you have I have there's no relationship
outside of that right and and so that's what you see with Hollywood stars and stuff like that there's this distinctive influence that people, you know, are attracted to.
And so that's what you get with the dynamic of a fire chief and a firefighter, especially in really large organizations is just distinctive influence.
And so, what we what but that distinctive influence doesn't hold a lot of water as far as influence. Here's an example, growing up parents struggle with raising teenagers.
And the reason why there's a struggle and I went through that struggle myself in a very real way.
The reason why is because who winds up having strong relationships and has your child's ear 24 seven, or their best friends that they're going to the sports games with at school with on sports teams with that's what we call proximal influence.
They're the ones that are have true influence over the life and so you get to this point where you have distinctive influence now like you're not hanging out with your kid 24 seven like you were when they were eight.
And so, as leaders we need to understand and distinguish those things and leverage it. And so if you know your actual power of your influence is based on your presence.
Well your presence with the firefighters just stop it like that's, that's not reality it's not sustainable, unless you're in like a really tiny organization.
But your presence with your deputy chief and actually making a team environment with them, you can do some work there.
And so, I thought was a really long answer of, of how we need to really just first look at leadership and the fire service and, and how we can create family type environments.
We need to start there.
That kind of philosophy reminds me of Richard Branson, his whole philosophy in the Virgin Group that he created is, you create a healthy and happy workforce, the customer will then be happy.
But it's the people, your people that you need to focus on. And when you look at the progressive businesses Virgin Google, all these ones. They're the ones going to the four day, nine hour a day work week they're the ones with the gyms and the cafeterias in their HQ.
You know they're the ones that are seeing oh this is our biggest asset is our people. And I would argue in the obviously in the business space they are the leaders are doing something right there they're winning in whatever industry they're in.
But what I struggle with and it's starting to become nauseatingly apparent now when as you touched on earlier, there's a resistance to the very tool that is going to help you know with first responder physical mental health and the recruitment crisis and the loss of money.
And it's also apparent outside you know within but certainly outside the fire service in COVID. Is there are lots of people like you said that are wearing a uniform that are a commander air quotes that aren't leaders, and they'll give each other leadership awards in these big conferences
and they'll pat each other on the back, but then they'll bury three firefighters that year.
So, what I really want to see as well when it comes to leadership in the fire service is courage, because, oh they'll never go for that shrugging your shoulders we don't have the answer all these bullshit things that I hear over and over again, because someone doesn't
have the balls to actually say, it's broken, we need to fix it is courage, and it's, it's so disappointing because our profession demands courage to go into a confined space or a burning building or climbing some, you know crushed vehicle and hope you can pull some
toddler out the seat in the middle that takes courage. So why is that not that bar not held to the same standard now you're pushing paper behind a desk. You know we need to see that same courage when it comes to advocate in for the physical and mental health of our people.
Yeah, because I think there's a lot of lip service, and the first responder community, that is, on the surface they'll say oh this is a problem and we need to fix it, but in the back of their mind they're thinking and, and I say this because I've had these conversations
in the back of their mind they're thinking, well, I was fine. And they just need to toughen up. And that's not the answer. And so there's this, I think what people present and how actually people feel and so when you have people in these leadership positions
that
truth is always found in the actions right and so like you could say you feel this way but if you're not taking any actions that are actually within your sphere of influence to make these changes, then we see how you truly feel and I think that's what you're touching on.
And so, yes, is there the courage aspect of it, 100%, because as soon as you meet resistance, and as soon as you see that some some harm may come to you and when harm you know reputation or whatever.
Then yeah there's some skirting and there's some avoidance. And you're going to have a better perspective on that because you're in the fight right now on this specific issue.
But what I would say from the leadership aspect of it and why these people are getting awards is because
managing people successfully
is convoluted as leadership many times. And it's in the reason why I say that is because if you're able to get firefighters to move from point A to point B, people will call that leadership.
But you can do that by managing very very well, and you can do that with rank.
And so they become successful managers but call themselves leaders.
And the another aspect of another layer to this is that a lot of times people will get credit for things they didn't do. And here's an example, especially the higher rank you get is you take, let's just look at a small unit team.
It has a terrible leader on it. No one knows it, but there's a terrible leader, a form a terrible formal leader, but the emergent leader, the, the informal leader on that's in that team is so good.
And they're the ones that have the influence that they make up and fill the gap of the actual formal leader.
And so someone from the outside will look at this team and be like, oh my gosh, like, they're killing it.
And then that leader gets promoted, or whatever, when really the entire time, they had nothing to do with that person.
And so we use these, you know, kind of superficial approaches to evaluate these leadership and people are in charge.
And there's some nuances to this that get overlooked and that is that these two things is, is it really you, or is it really the leader or the emergent leader on that team.
Are they managing successfully or are they actually leading? And so I think both of those things create environments for fire chiefs and chief officers and captains to where people get promoted and people think they're doing good when they're really not.
Absolutely. Well, I want to throw some closing questions at you before I let you go and obviously we'll talk about where people can find the book.
The first one I love to ask, is there a book written by someone else that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Oh, gosh. So many. I would say.
It's hard. It's like when people ask me what's your favorite movie.
And they can be more than one. If you want to list a few, that's absolutely fine.
Yeah, so the one I just mentioned, one, I'm, I'm a little biased because I'm a 49er fan, but Bill Walsh, he wrote a book called The Score Will Take Care of Itself.
And it, it really captures what I think that that balance between leadership and management is and how to take care of people and building a dynasty through that.
And when I say dynasty for the fire service is, you know, building your legacy.
And so I think one that's I would recommend that one. Another one is by Hal Moore.
He, if anyone has seen the movie, We Were Soldiers.
That was Hal Moore and he wrote a book on leadership and super impactful on me.
Those are two just right off the top of my head. But yeah, you, you read those and you're going to be well on your way leading in the fire service.
If you implement them. I think there's, you know, there's, there's a difference between, you know, hearing things and being a doer of things.
And I think there's a cultural phenomenon that there is no lack of information. Now we are, we live in an information age.
It's at that at the it's at your fingertips, but doing things and like you're talking about having the courage to see those things through.
That's a whole nother ball of wax. So I could recommend all the books in the world, but if you don't do them, mine's not even read them.
I had a guy on a while ago and he made that very point. You know, you said you see all these people saying this is how many books I read this month or this year or whatever.
And he's like, and how much have you implemented? How about you find one book that really resonates with you and you work on that diligently and make that your practice.
I thought that was genius because yeah, otherwise you're just being influenced to death and not actually doing anything.
That's that's exactly the phenomenon. And I'll add to that point real quick.
I talk about in the book and that's on values. You'll hear, you know, this this whole thing about like, oh, we need to have shared values because what they know is basic psychology is your values dictate dictate
your attitude and your attitude dictates behavior. Right. And so and then now you can influence how people move and act and think.
And so they try and impress upon values. But the problem is, is that values are just their core.
Like there's stuff like unless something that traumatic happens, something that is super impactful on your life and a life altering event, your values aren't changing.
And so to to this whole like kind of perspective on on on leading people, it's we need to stop trying to change people about change people's values and really work on on a few behaviors.
And then then like things can actually start moving. So instead of like, oh, here's these 10 values we need to focus on. Now, how about you just focus on one one behavior that they're already doing that's that's good for them.
And then it actually spreads to all these different values. And it's just a much it's a different philosophy of how you approach, you know, instead of doing the shotgun thing that we like to do.
Hey, how about focus on one thing and do that? Well, as opposed to the 10 values on the wall that no one's going to do.
And so when I look at, you know, all these different influences, you know, like it's 10 values on the wall.
You know, you've read 10 books, you're not doing a single one of them. And instead of a let's have like laser like focus on this one thing.
And that's where I like Bruno Sini, like be nice. Right. It was a shared purpose. It was one shared purpose. And then everything came from that.
Like, hey, be nice. And then if you're nice, you're going to have compassion on scene, you're going to be empathetic, you're going to be truthful, you know, like all these different things come out of being nice.
Focus on one shared purpose. Let's let's let's start there.
I always struggled with, you know, people because I've worked for four departments and you see mission statements to deliver the highest level of service to the citizens of like what is that that doesn't mean anything.
It's just like a politician talking. You just took a breath, said a hundred words that mean absolutely fucking nothing.
So, you know, how about, oh, let's have X amount less dead people next year. Maybe that would be a good target. You know what I mean? Something actually tangible.
Well, you mentioned we were soldiers. Are there any other films or documentaries that you love to recommend?
Films and documentaries. Not top my head. Yeah, it sounds say it sounds sad to say, but I watch a lot of documentaries, but they're all like history documentaries.
And it's really just for learning and my pleasure, not for anything pragmatic, you know, like rock watch a documentary so you can, you know, change this behavior about yourself.
All my documentaries are truly. That's my TV. Like people watch like reality TV and, you know, all the different stuff for entertainment. I watched like history documentaries.
And it's good when you're talking earlier about, you know, boss versus leader.
It's not a documentary, but the band of brothers series was so good. I've watched. I've lost count how many times, but that one quote, you salute the rank, not the person.
I mean, that's a mic drop for me. You know, you can see, you know, if you're really a leader, then it's not about the bugles on your shirt. It's about who you are.
Yeah, it's funny you say that because one of the quotes and forging your team is leadership is based on who you are and management is based on what you are, which really it's it's saying the same thing.
One's a rank and one's a person. Absolutely. Well, speaking of good people, it's a good segue. Is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world?
Yeah, good question.
Yeah, not off the top of my head, to be honest with you.
Yeah, I'm drawing blanks, James. So I know where he's no worries. It happens sometimes.
All right. When the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you and the book, what you do to decompress.
Decompress is really just hanging out with my family. Outside of that, I don't do anything else other than grind. And we were talking about that prior to you coming on. That's where I find my happy place.
It winds up being super exhausting, obviously. But I like what I'll say about that. My happy place is trying to live a thousand lifetimes in one lifetime.
Reading about our forefathers and the United States really set the stage for the rest of my life as corny as that sounds. But when you read that they were lawyers, they were politicians, they were generals.
One person, they were business owners, they were farmers, they were writers. And by the way, that's just Samuel Adams. By the way, that's just George Washington.
That impacted me. It's like, man, like how that can still be done. How did they like that? To me, that sounds like someone who lived a thousand lifetimes in one lifetime. And what you see with most people, and I'm always just trying to be different, I guess, is they'll choose an occupation and they'll do that occupation for the majority of their life.
And they'll have their family. All that stuff is good, mind you. None of that is bad. That's all good stuff. But where I find my happy place, what I find brings me fulfillment and joy in life is always pushing the needle of what can I accomplish next? What can I do next?
And I enjoy that. And along the way, you bring your family with you. And they're my center, they're my foundation. And so, yeah, my downtime is with them. My happy place is just pressing forward and accomplishing more.
Beautiful. All right. Well, then for people listening, if they want to learn more about you, you talked about doing the speaking side and obviously the book. Where are the best places to find all those?
Yes, I have a website. It's called www.forgingteens.com. And so go on there, get all my contact information. There's links to the book. The book is easily found on fireengineeringbooks.com. They're the ones who published it.
And yeah, I think if you're looking for some novel approaches, now mind you, I want to qualify this as well. I am a firefighter who's writing. I'm not a writer who's a firefighter.
So if you're looking for some Pulitzer Prize winner, you're going to be sadly, you're going to be disappointed. But are you going to take away some novel approaches that actually work on developing a team? Absolutely. And that's the goal.
Beautiful. Well, Johnny, I want to thank you so much. It's been such an interesting conversation. I mean, that niche kind of fire service that you're working in, certainly early in your career and even now, the kind of, like you said, the latitude that you've got that a lot of us haven't has been really interesting to hear about. And then obviously, the takeaways in the book, I'm looking forward to seeing that myself. So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and coming on Behind the Shield podcast.
James, it's been an absolute pleasure. This has been a fun conversation, because, you know, this was way more of the human side that I appreciate because usually it's, you know, it's almost like when I do these podcasts, it's more of just the contextual, you know, aspect of it. And so I really appreciated diving into deeper into some of these things that I don't really get to speak on. And so you provided that platform.
And so the pleasure was all mine and you're doing great things here. And the stuff that you're doing, even for the fire service and first responders around the nation is, I know, thinkless at times. And so I just want to applaud you for it and encourage you to keep going, brother. You're doing good stuff.
Thank you.