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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show Navy SEAL veteran and the co-owner of Defense Strategies Group, Zach Ferguson.
Now what I loved about this conversation as I've had with many, many high level people before is you have a man who is viewed as an alpha.
He's an MMA fighter. He is a elite war fighter. And yet in this conversation, you will hear courageous vulnerability.
He talks about his own mental health struggles, the addiction that plagued his family, the healing journey that he found within himself with psychedelics that ultimately extended into his family.
And now he has become a beacon of hope for others, especially men who believe in this kind of faux stoicism facade that a lot of us were raised on.
Now before he gets this incredibly powerful and important conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Zach Ferguson. Enjoy.
Well, Zach, I want to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Ryan Parrott.
I listened to the interview that he did with you on Frogman Friday and it was amazing.
And since then, obviously, he's made this connection. And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thanks a lot, James. Yeah, thanks a lot, Bergman for having me on that podcast.
Check it out. And James, thanks. Thanks a lot for having me on the Shield. So to share my story with your viewers and hit home with them hard.
You know, maybe give something they've never heard before. Absolutely. Well, where on planet Earth are we finding you today?
So we're trying to cut out here. No problem. Where on planet Earth are we finding you today?
Today? Where am I today? Sorry, the last part. That's OK. Where are we finding you today?
Oh, today. I'm in Orange County, California. I was born and raised here. Families from Boston, Charlestown, Massachusetts.
And most of my family's over there, but my immediate family is here in Orange County.
So it's good to be back home after leaving the military.
Well, let's start the very beginning of your timeline then. I spent some time in Orange County.
I worked for Anaheim Fire and I lived in Huntington Beach for a few years.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did and how many siblings.
So I was born at Kaiser Hospital in Anaheim, California, and family dynamic.
My dad had a pretty rough upbringing, like looked at the projects in Boston and like left his house when he was 14.
And he met my mom, who's a little bit younger. And then he basically his whole family's basically dealing with like, you know, oxy addiction, robbing banks, armed robberies.
So a lot of them got hemmed up with that stuff. And he wanted to lead that life and, you know, build a new life for his kids.
So pretty incredible human being dad. My mom just took a big leap of faith and jumped over here with him.
And then they got married here and then been together since.
When you talk to your dad about the environment that he grew up with, what was the kind of origin story?
Because, you know, as you know, people don't just wake up one day and decide to be an addict.
There's usually trauma and there's a void that's filled and escapism and all these other areas.
Have you been able to kind of find the kind of root cause of where his family's pain started from?
It's a really good question. I've actually never been asked that before.
So my addiction runs in my dad's side of the family, like as far back as I can remember.
It's either like disease wise or the life they live like in the 80s.
I don't know if you've seen like the movie The Town with Ben Affleck, then robbing banks with ski masks.
I mean, that was like my uncle's a nutshell and I relate a lot to my dad. I'm like both my parents.
My dad, I came from a chaotic, thrilling, in a way, energy adrenaline seeking life.
My mom was like grounded, rooted, like motherly, like super nurturing, very kind.
Like a mixture of all things. So in a way, I think that chaos threw me into wanting to achieve more or like,
yeah, my comfort zone like he did moving here. But as far as deeper cause of where it came from, I don't know exactly.
And what about career? What did your mom and dad end up doing?
My mom worked at a medical center. My dad came out here and he was a car salesman for most of his life.
He retired probably like four years ago. So he's retired now. He's 71 and my mom is at 65.
Brilliant. Well, let's talk about your kind of early life then.
What were you playing and doing as far as sports and exercise back in the school ages?
So my dad just, he put me in baseball when I was three. That was my first sport.
And then soccer shortly after I was playing baseball and soccer from when I was three until I was 14.
And so I was always active riding my BMX bike, going outside, just rolling in the mud, like just being, just being a boy.
A lot of sports. It was like pretty much mandatory to at least try new ones and see what you'd like and be active.
And I had a job at an early age as well. So my first job was 13 years old.
You mentioned about having an existential crisis at 13. What was that turning of the page for you?
Yeah, that was wild. That's how I think about that really when I get asked that question.
Let's go think about, I was sitting just at a desk in my old, my old house with old box computers.
And, you know, it was like this hiring calling was like, you know, here to do something great. Didn't know what it was.
I just started writing notes on my computer and then I saved it and dropped it to my email that I still have.
It was like, I'm going to be a UFC champion. Like, this is some crazy, can I talk about this podcast?
Yeah, you can. Yeah, absolutely.
It's crazy shit. They're like, I want to be like president. I want to be a UFC champion. I want to be like the Spartan Gladiator.
It was like a ton of stuff. And actually, I'm sure this but for whatever reason, I envision like I could like see death at an earlier age than normal people would.
So I like it. I wasn't afraid of for whatever reason, the 40 years old was in my mind. It was like death before 40.
That's not what I wanted or want. But I was okay with like going all gas until I was done in a sick way.
Well, I think it's a lot easier to become president now. So maybe you want to visit that.
I want to check that in the bag.
All right. Well, then, as far as the UFC champion, I know you know you're in the martial arts now. Were you doing martial arts back when you were younger too?
Yeah, so I was I was always passionate with word culture. Spartans Gladiators Vikings, just combative men that were the best of their time.
So I was trying to find something to equivalent myself and it was the UFC champion at that point in my mind.
So I started training at Rain Training Center kickboxing and having a much MMA fights. Well, I was like 17, 16, 17.
What about career aspirations? At that point, what were you dreaming of becoming?
I wanted to be a UFC world champion. So that was your focus. Okay. Yeah, I was working part time ballet and living at home and just training twice a day.
And I was fighting like so 16, 17 fighting like Mark Munoz, Chelsun and like a bunch of ATJ, Dolshaw. I'm much used to fighters when I was 16, 17, just getting my ass hanged to me.
I just started to forge and create something at a super young age.
And where were you training? Was it in Anaheim or somewhere else?
Rain Training Center was in Lake Forest. So not too far. Lake Forest, California, Orange County.
Yeah, yeah. It's amazing that area has so many good gyms. I trained at it was called No Limits, but it was Colin Oyama and he was training Carla Esparza, Ian McColl and Shane Del Rosario who actually ended up dying from an overdose himself.
But some really, really good fighters through that camp too.
Nice. I was actually not there not too long ago training Jiu Jitsu.
Oh really? Yeah. Giva Santana, the arm collector, I think they called him. He was an amazing guy. So humble, but yeah, phenomenal Jiu Jitsu guy.
Absolutely. What belt are you?
So when I did that, I did Muay Thai with those guys. I didn't do the Jiu Jitsu. And then as a firefighter, I'd work in shifts. I did Jiu Jitsu for a while, but my training was so inconsistent and I was so damn tired. Nothing would even stay in my head.
So then I kind of I got my blue belt almost out of pity, I think from the jungle in Orlando.
And then I've been at a gym now here consistently for about a year and a half. But if you don't show up in a gi, you don't get any stripes. So they keep telling me to put a gi on. So I'm working towards my purple, but I'm not there yet.
Nice. Good stuff.
So, all right, well then you want to be a UFC champion. You're fighting some of these big names that we recognize. Walk me through where that journey takes you.
So I had my first fight when I was 17, I think. I lost in the second round with TKO. And then I won four. So I was four and one. So that was from like 17 to 20.
And just working ballet, training, training, training, dealing with some injuries. But just that was my goal vision. Like I was going to do it. I was progressing fast.
And then, like I said, my family's from Boston, Mass. So growing up in my old house, there's a picture kind of like, not like this one, but my dad like in our living room, crossing the Boston Marathon.
This timestamp photo and I was like, you know, I walk in the front door and I see it every day. And we're watching TV and the Boston Marathon.
And Terence blew up kids and fucked everyone up. And they had a 180 turn of God felt like, or he was like, you're being a selfish prick. You're being self-fulfilling, selfish asshole.
go protect your country.
And I was like, copy that.
So I did a 180 turn and was like,
how do I serve my country
at the highest level I can?
And then I started researching,
I thought about what the SEAL team was worth through my best friend's cousin.
It was not teams at the time.
Now what about
as far as the ocean? Anaheim isn't
right next to the ocean, the
area, so were you swimming a lot
when you were younger or was that something that you kind of got
into when you entered the Navy?
My dad threw me in the pool
with no floaties, I was like five or
something.
I could
swim in the ocean, I was not a great
swimmer. I was very much
avid, if not blow avid.
So what is your recruitment
story then? Because I've heard, especially
the Navy guys, the
fear of being placed anywhere
if you don't pass
BUDs is motivation
itself for a lot of people. So what was
your recruitment story and then
let's get to your BUDs experience?
I was either lucky or
maybe
my intent purpose was so
apparent when I walked into the recruiter's office.
I said, I'm here to be
SEAL, I don't want to hear another word about
anything else.
That's it.
And said, okay.
And then I started doing training for the
PSD, the fiscal standard test, so push ups,
pull ups, sit ups, run,
swim. And
I trained for about a year
in the ocean and in the pool.
My buddy taught me the combat side stroke.
Got the time so then
like 12 months or so. And then
I got a contract to go
to BUDs. And
before I even went to the
recruiter's office, after the Boston
marathon, I was like
still in that
existential crisis mode.
Even that long later,
seven years later, I would
sit in my room and the pitch dark, I would turn the lights
off as sick and like
demented as it sounds. And just think about
like, what is, what
am I actually trying to do here? Why
am I doing it? And am I willing to
like go to the death to complete
the training, which my friend's
cousin said, like you must be willing to die.
And at first I was like, I don't
know what you're talking about.
And then I like was like, okay, the training
was like that.
After researching Hell Week and all that. So
six months later,
after every night, sometimes I would stay up all night long.
And my adventure, my answer was
yes. And
one more snippet on that was I
had a
another like, I had a lot of experience. So I'm
20 years old at this point.
And almost, almost
was like meditating.
So I was getting like either
hallucinating or just going
super deep internally.
And this like dark presence, like
honestly wearing a hoodie.
It was like all over my shoulder. Couldn't see him.
I didn't turn around, but it was a presence of
like, of death.
It felt like, felt like just blackness in
the end.
And he said, I'm going to test you like,
when you're saying you're willing to die, but
like you better fucking mean it basically.
And then I had another meeting with him
shortly about a year after that.
How did that factor into
when you're now, you know, in Hell Week
and all the different crucibles that you have to go through
for Seal Selection?
Yeah, it
helped me tremendously because
before I even signed maybe
papers, contract, I
had already made it through.
Or I was, I was going to die. So
it was like, there was no thought of
going to the ship fleet if I
quit. It just, it didn't exist
there at all. Not even an ounce,
a sliver. So it was like very
much peaceful, knowing like
I'll be a seal or I'm dying and I'm good with
either one, either outcome.
So first week of Buds,
we were in the pool
before I get there. The class that had
me, so I was class 319, Bud's class.
And 318.
So we were in base orientation, gearing up for
first phase. And they had a
a seal candidate,
Daniel Deobanko, quit during
Hell Week. And then
he took an Uber ride to
downtown San Diego, took the
Marriott elevator to the top floor and chipped off
and killed himself.
So they had a death in the first,
in the class ahead of me. And then
now I gear up a couple weeks later for
for first phase.
And we're doing an evolution called
the Beehive, which you have
a charge mask, like a scoop of
water, candy
pants boots, candy top.
And they threw everyone in the pool. The instructors
were in the pool and they hide you together
like bees, like this. So you
get really close. And
I had a broken nose from
fighting before the Navy.
So I couldn't hold the water in my mask.
It was just like, just
basically drowning me. So I was like,
can I refill it?
Instructor see me struggling,
gave me a little extra love.
And I'd say the least.
And
I started like really, really
having a hard time. I shit my
pants. And
basically just saw the walls come in
black. And then that dark figure
came like right as it was closing.
And he said, you said you're willing
to die. Do you mean it or not? And then
I just said, yes, lights out.
And then I woke up on the side
of the pool deck and drowned. And then
slapped me back to life.
So that was the
first little clip of Bud's
Welcome to Bud's, I guess.
So that
wasn't an immediate failure. That was just a
check at that point.
Yeah, it was more like we have our eye on you.
It was an evolution. Basically, it wasn't
a timed one or a pass or fail. It was like
go until you drown or
bring the bell. And
actually it was
the route I did. So
I woke up inside the pool, started
throwing up. And
then the instructor said, I go ring the bell over there. And I
said, fuck no. And
he said, OK,
we'll get the fuck back in the water. I said, cool.
Put my mask on, get ready to jump
in. And he said, stop.
I'll stop. The instructor started yelling.
And then I looked to
my left on the side of the pool deck and
my teammate James, Derek Lovelace,
had drowned. And they were giving
him CPR. And he ended up passing
him away. So
we lost a guy in our class.
The guy ahead of us, they
lost a guy too.
So that was my first
hardest thing I did
there, first week.
That's always such
a topic of conversation
and rightly so. But there
is a fine line between preparing someone
for combat or going
into a structure fire or whatever
it is in uniform. Having
them completely prepared and then obviously
that fine line between them getting hurt
or killed. What has been your
kind of philosophy, if anything
at all? The first one obviously
was something that that candidate
clearly was carrying into selection,
that that was the final straw for him to take
his own life. But then the second one,
trying to get people
as close to drowning
as possible without passing away,
that's a difficult thing to do as well.
So has it changed the way you look at things at all?
Great question.
I believe
that Bud's training, the curriculum
was like, it's
so perfect as far as like
getting the
crop of guys that are
meant to do the job.
And we just
go to the red line. Basically
the training brings you to red line
and a little past it. That's
it. And sometimes guys pass
away and that's just the nature of the game.
If nobody died
ever, yeah, it sucks guys
die, but it's fucking training. And
they have to bring you to that point
of that. And sometimes
once in a while it'll happen and it's necessary
as sad as it sounds.
Like
because if they
just shortchange the training
and then you're getting dudes that aren't as hard as they should
be, and guys die
or they leave their buddies during
a battle or something.
So
I think the training is phenomenal
and they shouldn't change anything ever.
Yeah, I
think I've seen in some of the fatalities
you've had in the fire service, it wasn't
so much the training, it was
an unknown vulnerability
in the candidate. And it might have just been
dehydration and two months to drinks
before, or it might have been a congenital
heart issue. But yes
there are times where people are pushed too hard and
that needs to be corrected 100%. But
I think when most people
graduate just fine and
occasionally you have one of these extremely sad
deaths, it does show that
you're right there on that line. It's
just, I guess it's down to
the medicals and the assessments prior to try
and see if anyone's going to be vulnerable
before they get to that point.
Absolutely, maybe doing a little extra
screening. I think they
said he might have had a heart condition
so, you know,
God rest his soul. But
it's just, he went out like a fucking lawyer, that's for sure.
Absolutely.
So you go through, you know,
selection then, where do you find yourself
assigned initially?
So I go through
selection and then
I got orders to seal team seven
after SQT seal qualification
training. So I made
it through BUDS first try.
Made it to the last attempt on
a bunch of
evolutions, but I just got it done
through the help of
my team and, you know,
the guys are just fucking animals and
the instructor staff.
Got to team seven. My platoon
was still on deployment
to Iraq. So they
had me go to JTAC,
which is Joint Terminal
Attack Controller
comm school. And then I went
to augment seal team three in Iraq
in
December 2017.
So the question I always ask people, because
you know, obviously the specific
nature of what people did and where
they were is, you know, is none of our business
in my opinion. But the
human side of war, I think, is something
that we don't really get to see
the civilians. If you look
at the news, it's either all the way one
way, kill them all, let God sort them
out, stack in bodies, or it's all the way the other.
They're all baby killers, you know,
peaceman, all that stuff. In the
middle are the men and women that we
send overseas wearing our flag
on their shoulder, you
know, to do whatever is needed
to be done. So I always ask people a
two-part question. The first part,
regardless of the politics
that sent you, in this case, you know, to
Iraq or if you want to even tie in somewhere else,
was there a point where you witnessed
some horrors and you realized there were
some horrific people that needed to
be taken care of?
Absolutely.
I think, I don't think I know, like
there's evil that walks the Earth. If we believe
in God and good,
then there must be an evil, right?
So, like, yeah,
there are horrific people that deserve
to not walk this Earth.
And they should
leave as soon as possible. And if we
help them get there, then even better.
But I've always had strong faith.
And what's blue, when I was
doing it, was right and true.
I didn't deviate from my morals
or values. And
that was what's important to me.
I didn't care who was president. Like,
it's not my control. My job is to protect
the guy to my left and right
the best I can. And that's what matters
to me. Being a good
person, saving people who
deserve to be saved, saving people you don't
know. And then the rest
that deserve to be gone
can go.
So the other side of that question
that we also don't see, but I've heard
so many amazing stories on here.
Kindness and compassion amid
some of these combat zones. So what
were some of the things you remember when it comes to that
element?
Good question. Yeah. So, you know,
seeing, like, little kids overseas
are like,
well, they're not necessarily evil because they're, like,
five years old. Like, they don't know what they're doing.
So, like, maybe giving them, like,
a little MRE, like,
candy packet or, like,
and just seeing, like, their face lit up, like,
we're the good guys. And
it sucks that, like, their dad goes
and, like, why does Zeus have that and kills his family
or, like, other people?
So just having, like,
the good humanized
kind soul, like, being shown
over there, even in such a, like, a
hellish part of the Earth.
I think that was, like, really cool to see,
like, from multiple people.
So did you deploy somewhere else after Iraq?
So after Iraq,
I came back, went to
a couple more schools. I joined
Mypoltun and then we went to
the United Arab Emirates
in March 2019.
And not a crazy deployment.
We did some, like,
hook and climbs on ships.
Not too, like,
magnetic or nothing like that.
But it was good.
Just continued to be an asset to my team.
Training like a motherfucker, I started
dabbling in Jiu-Jitsu at that time, too.
And just wanted to, like,
lift weights, fight,
learn how to shoot better,
be the biggest asset to Mypoltun that I could.
And just
given my all.
But that deployment,
nothing too crazy. Hook and climb.
I ran was like putting
lip and minds on ships. So we did, like,
battle damage assessments and stuff like that.
And then that was a seven month deployment.
And then we went back on that for that.
Up to this point, I mean, you had
some interesting, you know,
ups and downs as far as the generational
element with your family, some of these
existential moments that you had yourself.
Where were you emotionally?
Was this taking you to a good place?
Yeah, another good question.
So I like deep,
deeper questions. It's great.
Like the depth of James Lovelace
or like Daniel DiManko.
My best friend,
Justin Pegg, in
2018, ending up
killing himself.
While he went to the East Coast
and I stayed on the West Coast.
So I basically just had to
have a bunch of compartmentalized
boxes. I just kept putting stuff in there.
Anything like
dad's using again, box
or dad's box.
My own feelings were just, I didn't have
any feelings really. It was like kind of
sad. It's more or less like
just a wall of like my eyes are dead.
And I just like, I'll deal with that shit later
because I don't have time
or energy to deal with it.
If I like try to
go to therapy and do all that stuff,
and I'm not training as hard as I can,
one of my platoon mates gets killed,
that's my fault.
So I just buried it in a
sandpit for a while, which is not the right thing to do.
But maybe at the time that's
maybe the time it was, but
I had to deal with it at some point.
Well, you said your dad was using it again.
So, you know, you, he came
from Boston, like you said, he moved you guys down
to Southern California. You know, he's
raising you. Talk to me about
the fight he was having simultaneously
between sobriety and addiction.
My first glimpse
at his addiction was
when I was 15, and I quit
the baseball team in high school.
And he was my coach all
growing up. So he was like
using Xanax and like
just going on these crazy benders.
Showing up to my games like high,
cops everywhere,
starting fights.
And at that time I was like
still young, so he just moved to a
sober living house.
And then that was it. He eventually came back
and was fine. And then now it's
2020, so a year after the
UAE deployment. And
I'm starting to see more
of like
signs of he's using harder.
Because I would come home
from San Diego to Orange County
on the weekends occasionally when I could.
And I would eventually just start to see
or he would stop texting me as much as he
know that would.
He used to send me like a lot of prayers every morning.
And then it started to slow down.
And
so he was battling with methamphetamine
addiction, Xanax
abuse. So we get a lot of
weed.
Mixing stuff all together.
And it was
getting pretty bad during COVID time.
Did it get worse
because of COVID, do you think, all the isolation
that we're all experiencing?
It did. I don't like to
blame COVID for it, for anything.
It's his choice.
But definitely like it's a better process
of using. Because I would come home
and I would say, where's Dad at?
And in the backyard cleaning the yard.
He's in like in a tree
and we have a big ass tree in
our backyard. He's like 30
feet out in the air with no
ropes. And he's like 65.
I ran with the fuck out of the tree.
Like I'll go do it.
And he fell
from 30 feet and snapped his leg.
And too stubborn
to call an ambulance.
Like crawl to like his
bed and then eventually my mom
got in there. But now he's better
at it. And with the cast on,
now he's using more.
So
that's the
start of like, it really started to spiral
after that.
So bring yourself
back into this kind of timeline then.
You're compartmentalizing
all these traumas yourself.
Where do you kind of get to a low point?
So I went to
sniper school after my second deployment.
It was in January 2020.
And
finished that prior
before COVID started. And then
was just doing jujitsu, getting
ready for 2021 Yemen deployment.
And
I was locked in ready because I'm
pointing now. So I have a big responsibility
for my platoon.
And I was honored to like, to be
asked to do that job. So it's
not easy. And it's all a responsibility.
I wanted to carry that weight.
And now it's
March 2021.
I'm feeling good.
And I come home to see my family before I leave.
And my sister
was diagnosed with Crohn's disease.
Like in March 2021.
So she went from 130
pounds to 80 pounds.
In like two months.
And she
moved back home with my parents in Orange County.
So it was my dad, mom, sister.
And my dad was using
like so, so much.
It was like, I would see him for up three,
four days at a time.
Like just tweaked out on meth.
And I just,
I sat them all in like, in the
kitchen.
And
I told him, I was like, if I had to come back
and save you, I'm going to
reserve you for my whole entire life.
And he said,
okay.
And I went on deployment
a month later.
So I went on deployment.
And
now it's July.
So a few months later in
the time it's going good.
Yemen's a shit hole country. It's pretty
crazy to see
doing some like
special reconnaissance ops, stuff like that.
And it's July.
I get a text from
my neighbor.
And I'm like,
my neighbor.
And he's like, I found
your sister in a pool of blood in the bathtub.
And
I guess she has
Crohn's disease so she's bleeding a lot.
And I was like, fuck.
And then
my dad was high on meth
and carried her to the ambulance.
Which I imagine was like
brutal to like see
your daughter in that state also being
high.
And then she texted me asking me to come home early.
And I was like,
yeah, things are bad. But I'm also like,
this is also my family of
my own.
And I was like,
this is also my family overseas too.
So I like
waited that decision for a while, like a couple of weeks,
almost a month.
And then I eventually made the decision to come home early.
My chief let me come back
early.
And I didn't tell my dad, I just wanted to
like see what state
he was in with the drugs.
So I
showed up
in the door and he was stuck for five days on a meth
bender
talking to shadow people.
Having like full blown conversations
with like someone sitting in the chair
that was non-existent.
It was really crazy like to see
that.
Heartbreaking for sure.
When I think about these multiple
day benders,
and then I think about the sleep deprivation
in my community and the forced sleep deprivation
in Hell Week,
you can just see how it's a
vicious circle once people are on this
kind of drug
journey when they're on
an amphetamine. Now they're staying
up. Now they're getting more psychosis.
Now they're taking more drugs to deal with it.
And it's just getting worse and worse and worse.
Exactly.
Like you go very like five and I have so much
respect for five and
like working like
multiple days, like
calls throughout the night. So you're not even getting REM sleep.
You're just constantly up.
You know, through the sirens like
so you guys know exactly what
I mean.
But you're talking like
crazy stuff like talking about
blazing infernos,
like fire, just
dark. Like the devil was like just
taunting him. Really what
it was.
And so I like, my god
was telling me to get my sister and my
mom to a hotel room.
Because my sister is better than she
couldn't even walk.
And my mom
lived upstairs. My sister was
living downstairs in my old room.
And so I moved into a hotel room
and then I told my
dad I'm going to come back and
go back to the house
after I check in in San Diego 13.
So I went back down there
on like Wednesday
or Thursday.
I came back a day later on Friday. Or no I didn't
come back. I was at the Potters game
with my best friend.
Just like trying to decompress the whole like
process. Because I
made the decision to get out of the Navy.
After seeing
all that. So I had a few months
on my contract.
And then I got a FaceTime call
from my neighbor.
Which he's
never even called me in my life. So
it's like, I picked up the
phone and I was like fuck.
And my house was engulfed in flames.
I was so
angry at my dad for that.
And I didn't know
if he was like in the house still while I was
burning.
So I drove
to Orange County and
the fire was put out like a few hours later.
And
you know I went to jail for
felony arson.
And it was like midnight. I was walking through my
house.
That Boston Marathon picture is gone.
The room my sister
was staying in was burning.
Yeah.
Everything was torched bro. It was bad.
It's like my
house was all about gasoline everywhere.
So where do you go from there?
I mean your dad's
incarcerated now.
The rest of your family is in a hotel room.
You're standing in the smoldering.
What was your home? Not just a building.
Which is why we always chastise firefighters
about taking pictures in front of structure fires.
Because like you said, it's the little things.
It's the Boston Marathon
picture. It's all, it's what that
building meant to these people.
It's so important that we're respectful
around that time as well.
So how do you move forward from that?
So I started doing jujitsu at
10th Planet Orange.
Two days.
Just to like, I was so
mad at my dad. He broke our family
apart.
I needed to like, grab myself
and just stay busy.
So jujitsu did that for me.
I was training in the morning.
Would lift weights in the afternoon.
Do jujitsu again.
I was competing a lot.
And
I said
fuck my dad. I was like, I'm done
with you.
And
my full family hated him.
Just living in the
hotel with my sister and mom. Just taking
care of him.
And I was driving to jujitsu on
open night on a Sunday. And I see my dad
walking home once outside of the street.
After he got out of jail, he was like, waiting for
his charges and stuff.
And I was like,
what the fuck happened, man?
Because he's like the epitome of
like, the best dad in the world.
Like, raised us.
Taught us all these like, um,
like, who I am because of my dad.
I'm like, how did I get here?
And that was my first
like, come to Jesus
moment. Everybody want to call it to like, help
him? Because everyone disowned
him.
So I was like, how do I do that?
I was just thinking of solutions.
He was
uh,
I haven't shared this before, but
he was homeless. And then
he was living inside the burnt house.
In the garage.
My dude, no human
like, you're going to die from cancer in like a month
if you stay here. That type of shit.
So, I was
at open, I was at Jujitsu again
in January.
The house fire happened in August 2021, so
it's four or five months later.
And
the sky sits next to me.
And it was like, are you okay?
And I've never met this dude ever.
I'm like, the fuck is this guy?
I'm fucking with it or something.
And I was like, not really.
I'm not really, I'm not really that good.
And he started talking to me about
psyched out therapy. He was a
Marine vet. And
I was like, I've done psilocybin and
plant medicine
therapy. And he brought up Ayahuasca
ceremony. And I said, I'm in dude.
I like, I needed healing. Because I
wanted to heal myself before I helped my dad.
Because I was like, I'm all fucked up.
I'm not used to no one.
So, I
geared up for June
2022 Ayahuasca
ceremony.
And, yeah.
Talk to me about the experience.
I mean, your community, especially with
the Ibogaine down in Mexico. I mean,
I've heard so many success
stories. And obviously, it's not
a magic pill. They're involved,
you know, the being led
through the ceremony and obviously all the work
with what you've unpacked once you come out
the other end. But I've heard,
you know, the kind of,
you know, the God molecule, 5-miodmT
element where people really kind of realize,
you know, what this is actually about
and how we're all connected.
You know, I've had some people that have had the opposite.
Some pretty horrific experiences. So,
what was your actual personal
journey and experience like through Ayahuasca?
So, it was a two day ceremony
Friday, Saturday.
Before, when I was writing intentions down,
what do I, when am I trying to get
out of this experience, this medicine?
I didn't want to over clutter
my brain and have a list of like a hundred
things. I feel like it would be too much.
So, my shaman said just three or four top
the big ones in your life.
My first one was
release anger towards my dad
and hatred I felt.
And two was,
you know,
like, try to feel
again like a human emotion.
Because I just
compartmentalized everything. It was like
dead inside.
And then three was get closer to my faith in
God. So, it's Friday
night. First night of the ceremony.
And I'm sitting in the living room.
And
there's ten women on one side, ten men on the
other side. And the shaman's to our left
playing music, guiding us through
our experience.
So, I'm just sitting there with my eyes closed.
Having some pretty
crazy visuals.
And I felt like a
very strong wind gust in the room.
I pop my eye open
and was looking around. No fan
on, no door open.
I was like, that's really weird. As soon as I eyes opened
it stopped blowing at me.
Closed my eyes like two minutes later
again. And then I pop
like one eye open and just like, swinted.
And all the women were crying
at the same time
in unison. And they were like
blowing air at me. They were like,
like this. And I was like, what the fuck?
I was looking at
all of them. And their eyes are
closed. They're not even looking at me. They're just doing this.
And I saw like that women
nurture love. Like, could join
in the middle of the room. And they like
started to come towards me. And I was like,
oh.
And it went in my stomach
and I looked down and my stomach was a burning
infernal pit. My dad.
And I just watched like the fire build.
It was like all hatred. It was like
anger. I was like,
I thought I was having a stroke.
That's how angry
I was at him. And
it just built up. I watched it go up my neck.
My head fell back. My eyes opened and
flame thunders flew out of my eyes.
It like
dissipated all the hatred towards my dad.
In like fucking ten minutes.
It was done.
And then it was like,
I love you. I forgive you.
I felt what like love was
again. Because I like didn't feel like for so long.
Especially from like a woman.
I was like, what is this stuff?
I was like
didn't know what it was.
And I was like overwhelmed by it.
And I was healed my first intention
in fucking an hour.
It's crazy.
Credible.
That was a
that was the first night.
Went to bed. Had a little breakfast.
Said a prayer. Night two.
I was flying through cosmic space
on the second side doll experience.
It was like
the most beautiful color. It was like colors that were
on the rainbow. Like in the color chart.
It was crazy.
And I was flying through like first person
point of view. Through cosmic
space. And there was no like words.
There was no people. It was like
just energy of like everything together.
And
I said in my head. I was like
what am I right now?
And I heard the chuckle like a little giggle
laugh. And I
opened my eyes and like no one was laughing at me.
Obviously. I closed my
eyes and I said what is this place? And he said
I just looked up and I was like
this globe like light.
I felt like God's presence.
Or like everything. Everyone.
All love. And he said this
is where you came from. This is where you're going to go to
when you die.
And my interpretation of that was I went to the
heavens gates and
saw the like
most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life.
And
then I said a prayer for my dad.
I just prayed that he
reaches out and asks for help.
Because he was still avoiding
or not taking ownership of what he did and not wanting
the help.
And then the ceremony ended and I went to Jiu Jitsu
Monday two days later.
And
he calls me like I haven't talked
about months. And he said
he didn't say hi.
He's like I bet everybody could help.
So.
All the intentions are answered.
Yeah.
Amazing. Going back to
the comment you made because I think so
many people listening can relate to this.
They just everything's almost
like gray. You don't
you have emotions but they're like
a dampened version. It's like you turn
the knob down to two.
When did you
remember feeling true
love? Feeling properly. Like what
age were you that your last
memory before it kind of started going away?
Dan.
I've had that before.
Think of that.
Like I
shut off my emotions before I left the Navy.
So this was you know I was
27, 28 during the
ayahuasca ceremony.
I don't think I felt
or received the love
that I was being shown till
I was like 19 years old or
something.
A long time. Yeah.
It was probably for my parents
and my family. Yeah.
Well listening to you
at this you can just see this emotional
tug of war between
the disappointment and anger
from your dad's behavior when he's
under the influence and clearly this incredible
father that you know is who you
you would love. And this
is I think a really important part the whole addiction
conversation. It's become
so judgmental. You know
addicts, crackhead, bum, you know all
these words that we use.
But these are human beings
that were brought up in a certain environment
and you've kind of touched on you know how
your dad was raised in Boston.
And you know there's this void
and they need this void to be filled with
something. And okay you know sometimes the right
mentors around there and it's filled with positive
things and they end up flourishing.
But more often than not it leads them down
another path. And I think you know
seeing that this is a person
who is struggling not you
know like we said a crackhead
or you know whatever you want a tweaker
whatever label we want to put on them
it's so kind of
palpable in all this
conversation we've had so far
that you this is unending love
for your father but these constant
blows from his addiction you know
are pushing you away.
Yeah well I change my views on like
homeless people and people
who are addicted to drugs
or are. I want to like help
them at least like
give them the opportunity
to give them perspective.
So that's why I do podcasts is like
it's not to tell
I want to do anything I would never do that
especially just like the plan medicine.
It's more of like sharing a story to give them
perspective on what it did for me
and my family maybe it'll make
them quickly think a little bit
deeper and be like oh maybe this
is an avenue I can take to help heal myself
or someone I love.
Someone who's going to do this.
So it was like
heartbreaking to see that from him
but I just never quit like in the
Natives. I couldn't
once I made a decision to help him I was like I'm going to take
this job
at the very end. So
now he said yes to
he reached out for help and
brought Alaska to him.
Eventually he said yes.
And he did in October
six months after me.
Got him through there to like
weekly meetings with the
weekly lunches with the shaman.
Gave him like
this is what it would be like more or less like how do I
get there like the right diet beforehand.
And he
goes by himself and
I see him two days after
for lunch.
And
you know
like me he had like a veil of like
dead eyes for a long time.
And his eyes were glowing like
like he was
reborn. It's crazy.
And he started
like tearing up in front of me which he's
never like cried in front of me.
Especially in a public setting I was like
what is happening. And I was like
really happy because I could see it.
And he said something
beyond I forget. He's like
besides the birth of my children this
is the best thing. And suddenly he done it
for me.
And
just started melting dude. I was like fuck.
Powerful.
I was so happy.
Forever.
Amazing.
I had a firefighter
I was connected with who
was struggling
so hard and alcohol was his
addiction.
But he had done the work. He'd done
some counseling. He tried ketamine.
But even with the ketamine they had hooked
him up and walked out. They hadn't done
the therapy that's supposed to go along with
the ketamine that's flowing through your veins.
So he thought he was doing
the right things but was not finding any
success. And
got him connected with an ayahuasca
retreat in Houston
with a friend of mine.
And you know
when someone goes off and does something like that
you're always praying that it works because
his comment to me was
if this doesn't work then that's
it. And I've had a friend of mine who was also
an alcoholic.
And his final
rehab
admittance he said the same thing to me. If this
doesn't work I'm done. And we all know what that
means. So from
after the other, you know on the other side
I talked to him and they said
the first day he's like James
I thought this was bullshit. Nothing happened.
I'm like what a waste of fucking time.
He said the second
day I submitted to the
medicine. And
it's funny because he kind of reiterates what your dad
said. He said
including the birth of my children
and becoming a firefighter
this was the
most powerful experience of my entire
life. And it saved
his life. And you look at
the people that you lost to suicide
and as I sit here
in Florida we just had a suicide in my
town with a visiting
firefighter who was at a firefighter
memorial ceremony of all things.
And then Miami Beach
I understand just lost one as well.
So this is why these stories
are so important. This is why I'm so glad that
you came on the podcast. And we'll
carry on the journey. But you know
it's not a magic pill
but it's a tool in the toolbox that most
people aren't aware of.
And that gives them hope.
Then you start unpacking all the things
and doing the work and repairing relationships
and everything else is still left to do.
But this is saving lives
and it needs to be at the forefront.
It really does.
I totally agree.
It's like the stigma of like
drugs are bad or
you know, putting like
an illegal label on them.
This medicine, what I want to say
comes from Mother Earth.
How can you guys put
a label of it's bad. But that's where we
come in and share stories and
change that persona, like what it actually is.
With the suicide
just to backtrack a tiny bit.
A couple months before my
ceremony my dad
called me and he was
down his wall. He was like
trying to
describe how he was going to kill himself.
I was like, I need to fucking hurry up.
He was going to do it and
just
if I could drive like a hundred miles an hour to him
just gave him a hug. Said I love you.
Like
I'm glad that happened.
Because everyone abandoned him
so he didn't have anyone else.
We ended up getting him off the bridge
and
then he got healed
not long after.
Incredible.
It's amazing.
Well the other thing as well is that you didn't give up.
I think this is the point.
Someone might be a fire department,
might be a family member. They go to rehab
once and they come out and they relapse.
Well that, you know, it didn't work.
And if you listen to most people in their
recovery stories, it takes
several attempts over and over and over
again. And if someone just disowns them
or terminates them from a fire department
or whatever the thing is when someone's struggling
and they need our help, then
you've just cut off all lifelines
then. So I understand that
some people make it near impossible
and that's why, you know, like you said,
treatment facilities and some of these other halfway
houses might be a valuable tool.
But to just turning your back
on them, you're basically signing
the death certificate. So if we
really love these people, we have to keep
being there for them. Even if
physically they can't because they're a liability.
At least, you know, communication
wise, and this is what you did. You never gave up
on your dad.
Yeah,
I did. There's like, I love him
so much and he's like such a good human.
Everyone loves him. Like all
my friends. He just has
like little demons that we all have.
And, you know,
just lapses of
judgment and decision making.
And you just need some support.
And just carried
the burden away for a while.
Really heavy. But
I would do it over it the same way.
Just never giving up.
You'd be surprised, you know,
if your viewers are saying like, you know, James
but like, if you never quit on something,
you'll never know how to.
So just never quitting my life.
And keep trucking along.
Well, when people say as well, they make bad decisions.
Let's go back to where your dad
was, you know, three or four days
benders. So completely seep deprived.
His brain isn't working
the way a brain is supposed to work. And
this is what we talk about with the first responders.
After years and years of the shift
work, they literally
the brain's reality is distorted.
And this is where I always reiterate with the
the suicide conversation.
The old school mentality was
oh, it's selfish, it's cowardly.
And you listen to people that have been there.
And I've listened to hundreds of people that have been
there. You start realizing
that they truly believe
that they were a burden to the
people that they loved. And so if they
get rid of themselves, well, all the pain
goes away and my family will be OK.
It makes no sense to a healthy brain.
But at that moment, it's actually
courageous and selfless if you think about
it. But it's up to us to pull them out of
that because that's not the right way to thing.
But so when you say, oh, you
just pull yourself together, make the right
decisions. If your entire
reality is distorted,
your decision making is distorted.
So it's up to everyone else who isn't
struggling to be that
baseline, to be that doc that you
can more on while you get yourself
straight again.
Exactly. Dr. Moran, like a pillar
of strength for the Milan.
So important because
addicts, they already hate themselves.
They already
they talk bad about themselves. They get themselves
down. They think they're a burden.
So you can't come out to them and be like,
you're an addict, you need help or
necessarily attack them in that way or be like,
you know,
you're causing this disruption in my life.
You need to come at them with a lot, a lot
of love, as hard as it is.
I love you, I miss you.
How can I help you?
That's like the
that's what I found is like the right approach,
at least for me,
helping people is just show them
love and just be there to
talk to them. Just talk to them like
even keeled. Don't
start yelling at each other. It's not going to get anywhere.
So it's super
important.
Yeah, I forget who it was now, but
someone told me about, you know, the intervention
thing and they even had the TV shows.
And I forget the percentage of
success, but it was like
10 or something like that percent, because
again, you're pouring guilt and shame on someone
who's drowning in guilt and shame. It makes no
sense.
Yeah, I think it has to link to the fire, basically.
No pun intended.
Yeah,
I lost my train of thought right there after
I said that.
I'll reel you back in.
So, you know, you go through
the ayahuasca, your dad goes through the ayahuasca,
you see this, you know, incredible
gleam in his eyes again.
Walk me through up to present day
with him specifically, like how
has he been doing? What are other
tools that he's found that actually
improves his healing?
Yeah, so he
was healed, I was healed. We started
to rebuild our connection, our relationship
together. But everyone else
in the family, my sisters,
my mom, my brother, hate
him still.
So he started going to, again,
a 6 a.m. prayer meeting
so he would work out, I'd work out with him
with weights and then he would go again at 7
p.m. and he'd do that,
excuse me, every day.
And that's like his routine. He used to
do that every day.
We need to talk every day, whether it's a few
texts, a phone call, we need to communicate
and that's like his baseline of staying on
track. He's been sober since
ayahuasca. And that was
October
2022, so over
two years. Amazing.
So I kept him on track
and then we kept each other on track, really.
He kept me on track just as much as I did him.
And
now I'm trying to connect like my mom
back to him, my
sisters and brother.
So the first one was
my sister
and
my niece, my dad's granddaughter
the day of the house fire.
And yeah, I'd never met
her, but to this point, this was
January 2024.
So
they hadn't talked to him for years.
And I was
like, Sarah
it would be cool for dad
to meet his granddaughter. So
she said only
if you're there to mediate it.
So we just went to lunch
and I walked around the park
in Long Beach. And
the alcohol went great.
Met his niece and
now they talk all the time. Now he
babysits her and has a
relationship with his sister, his daughter
and his granddaughter. So that
was the first one.
My mom hates his guts. Like she's
married to him for 40 years. Can only imagine
how mad he was.
And I brought up
MDMA therapy
that they use for
first responders, combat veterans, people
with PTSD. And she said
no for the longest time.
Like two years. And I'm not
asking her to do it. I'm just giving her
like, my mom's done it. It's amazing.
It helps a lot of people. Here's some research
articles on it.
Eventually she said yes.
And the deciding factor
of that was I went up to her apartment
and
I didn't
ask her to do anything. I just started
crying randomly. Just saying
like, it's like I'm super sad
to see you sad.
And that was like the
perspective she needed.
And I ended up at home with her.
So she
ended up doing MDMA therapy.
This amazing therapist that works with a lot of team
guys and special operators.
And
the therapist asked me to
get handwritten letters from everyone
in my family, including everyone
in Boston.
So I got the letters, put in an
envelope and my mom came over
to give me a hug before.
And I gave her the package and it had the therapist's
name on it. She
didn't know what it was. I said this is a gift for your therapist.
She said okay.
And it was all the letters inside.
So she
goes to the ceremony.
And the therapist says stay up. I had been up all night
because I didn't want my mom to
she bailed on the ceremony
two months prior.
Like last minute. So I just
stayed up and was going to like drive
to her house if she didn't get here by 9am.
Or she tried to call me the middle of the night back here. I was like
hell no.
And then the therapist texted me
with photos of my mom
on this couch.
Like
melting away.
Like reading a letter
from
my dad.
It was just like I love you. Sorry.
It was incredible.
I was so happy.
So my mom really saw that
hatred towards you too.
And she's good now.
She's like back to her old self.
Crazy.
Crazy. Crazy. Crazy.
Bob's good.
My other sister that had Crohn's disease
or has Crohn's disease.
She's like such a hardworking
independent woman.
I love her so much but
she just wouldn't like
she just compartmentalized like I
did with my dad.
And I wrote a father's day
post this year in June.
And I had a photo of me hearing my dad in it.
Just like I love you dad. Happy father's day type thing.
And she calls me
and she's like take that fucking photo down right now.
I look like shit.
And we were like 18 years old.
15 or something in the picture.
We all looked like shit back then.
Yeah. I was like and meeting my brain
was like that's not what
she's actually mad about.
And in my mind I was like oh
she's still very
very much mad at him.
And it hasn't really seen any of that anger.
So I left the photo up. I said no.
That was a dick move.
But I felt my gut was telling me leave it up
because she needs to like really
just like process why she's angry.
She calls me like six
hours later and was
crying just saying
I didn't realize how angry I was.
I was like I'm not going to do this.
I didn't realize how angry I was
at him.
And then she
I was like it'd be cool if you texted him
happy father's day.
And she did.
So she had talked to him for
three years.
And now their
really relationship began.
Good stuff.
Yeah. Amazing.
The MDMA again I had
done that recreationally and
danced and hugged a lot
of people. And so I saw that it
was I can see the potential
of it in this. And I actually plan on doing that
particular therapy myself because it's not
a thing. But I feel
like that kind of
journey will maybe open
some boxes I didn't realize were there.
You know what I mean? But so this
is the point though. You've got ayahuasca.
You've got Ibogaine. You've got MDMA. You've got ketamine.
It's all this entire group
of other things. And then cambo
and you know, Poyote and even more.
That people just you know
not even don't know about. They're told
not to know about it. It's evil. It's
the devil's letters. It's you know whatever it is.
And yet this is the
area where I'm seeing so
much success. And yes then it can be combined
with talk therapy and EMDR and
some of these other things if needed.
But you know you have and I've
underlined this a lot recently. The FDA
denied MDMA
led therapy to be
used you know to be I guess
prescribed, used medically.
And yet the
FDA approved Oxycontin
which caused the immense opioid
crisis that we have today. So you
know the more awakening we have
on how effective a lot of these
treatments are and how
for example our Navy
SEALs, they literally
fight for this country. Our firefighters
and police and dispatchers and
everyone else protects this country.
And yet we have to go overseas
to get the treatment for what we
see and what we have to do. I mean
it's just pure insanity. So listening
to not only the
person in uniform but the family around
them also being healed
by these incredible you know plant
medicines or therapeutics.
Every single guest, every single layer
I hope adds more and more
argument and debunks a lot of the fear
around these treatments.
Absolutely and that's
getting too political but it's just a giant
money you know spin
machine giving pills
every month you know that don't
work that actually makes everything way worse
rather than going
to an ayahuasca ceremony and having
a full blown like
I was like healed in a weekend
and I don't need any I don't take any pills
for to fix
me. It's just it was like a one stop shop
not say it was like a magic
pill but it gave me that big
180 turn and now I have
other things I do to keep me on the
track.
Jujitsu, my family, friends, my
girlfriend now it's like
it's such a big tool and people
are starting to like more and
more opening their eyes to
like thinking differently or thinking for themselves
or listening to people and their
their stories.
This stuff's so powerful I didn't realize
like the reach or the effect it would have until I did
like my Britlands podcast
and the overwhelming amount of
messages was like people sharing
their life trauma with me that I've never met
and I was like who have you told this to
and they're like no one and I'm like
what? It was like
so special and like
I didn't take it lightly so I just
screenshot them and I put them in a hidden folder
just to look at
and I was like this is my purpose
is to help people
through sharing stories.
Powerful men so
People use
the word resilience you know I think a lot
of times they think of you know
assault courses in the military selection
or you know the mazes
that we do in the fire school
and oh that's how you become tough and resilient.
What I realize is all
resilience is is working through your
struggles, your traumas
and that becomes you know a badge of honor
it really does it becomes you know that analogy
of the Japanese pottery
with the gold glue that they use to be proud
of your you know your scars
and this I think then puts
hope into the mental
health conversation the post-traumatic
growth on the other side
over and over and over again
you see that people aren't even
aren't just a better
version of themselves but they're also
a beacon of light for other people
because they see you emerge out the
other end like how did you do that
you know and then that because you're being vulnerable
because you told your story today
and you're a Navy SEAL
then a lot of people that were kind of believing
this men don't cry you know rub some dirt
and it suck it up bullshit go
wait a second Zach was in tears
talking about you know what he went through
so maybe I'm not
a giant pussy maybe this is normal
what I'm going through and I can
you know get whatever my personal
toolbox looks like and
be that beacon for other people as well
and you nailed it right there that was like the perfect
like a
caption of what we're talking about is
like I'm crying
on camera in front of random people
and I'm a SEAL or I was a SEAL
like I don't care like
the ego is gone already it's been
a long time ago and
like I'm human I'm very
much average like
to make it through SEAL training I was
not a track star I was not a super
human just a regular
person with like
our phrase that uncommon desire to succeed
a common man with uncommon
desire to succeed and just never
quitting don't quit on yourself
don't quit on your loved ones
there's always an answer
and don't be afraid to be vulnerable
and ask for help lean on people
don't feel like you're a burden
and you know if you never quit
you'll literally never know how to
get back to life and that's like my life story in a nutshell.
Well let me ask you this too because I think
one of the other ways of framing this
for the kind of naysayers are still
kind of buying into the stigma is
the performance side. I had a
guest on and he was a former
professional baseball player and we're talking about
flow state Logan Gellbridge
and he said you know for
to get into a flow state you need three things
you need the 10,000
reps of training or hours of training
stress which again most
of us in first responders or military we have
a version of both of those
that he said and then you need a calm mind
so to be the
best operator to be the best
firefighter paramedic
you need to address that maelstrom
in your mind you need to calm it so that you can get
in that flow state you can critically think you
can make life and death decisions when you
need to so what have you seen as
far as your performance after this
you know ayahuasca and beyond?
Yeah so
I'm very much introvert
like shy I don't mind
sitting in a room full of people and not saying
anything not that I'm a weirdo but just
shy by nature
it's
helped me like even more so even after
steel training I harness
like all human emotions
and to be able to think even
keeled not see red at all
and that's why like
when I could be in jujitsu and like
my friends are family watched me and they're like
almost like you're like sleeping
or like you're just like chilling in a chair
and like my mind is so calm
just cause I've been through
so much cue and emotion
that I'm able to like I find
myself feeling these and I could just be
like toned down toned down
toned up this and just keep them all level
and that helps you
just be stable
and not make bad decisions
through
anger or anything like that
so and that's
transcribed into all my life like
I'm learning about my relationship
we're talking to my dad like
patience and
me asking for help like
everything all in one
super important
You mentioned earlier about
the ability to
receive love from a woman too
how has that shifted now
because I think this is something that plagues a lot of
first responders we become this kind of
you know
armored version of ourselves
and we lose the ability to love or feel
loved
Craig Washington I
wasn't able to receive love
for a long time and
I've been in a relationship
for six months now and it's like that first
time like someone
showing me love and I'm like
fine I'll take it
before I was like
no
denying it was
not true or just being like
I'm not worthy of it
am I deserving of it
and now I'm like after Birdman
Ryan's podcast
I do deserve it like I will take
it and I'll give it back
as much as possible
and that's been the biggest thing this year
is like receiving love
and my life's
way better for it and it's hard to do
it took a long time but
it's important you have to love yourself
as well like
don't kick yourself down
love yourself
absolutely well Ryan's
one of the people that says I love
you to me and vice versa
and I love this kind of movement again men
are telling each other that they love each other
you know I mean I went around the world with Ryan
on that 7X adventure and
you know just see what an incredible human
being he is like I do love that
guy you know so I think the ability to
obviously deeply love a partner
but also you know
whether it's your team whether it's your
crew and a fire engine whether it's just
the people in your community
I think that we've had that shut down so
much you know and it's you know all this kind
of ridiculous two dimensional rhetoric
on what men are supposed to do
which is absolute bollocks because it's based on
actors in Hollywood normally
to refine the love of
everyone you know especially
you know
men being able to love other men
we were literally willing to die for each other
there's no greater love than that I don't know what is
you know
exactly yeah I told random people
I love you all the time now
it's like never pass
up an opportunity to say that just
tell it to your family randomly text it to them
call them like
they need to like I might change someone's life
especially tell them to like a random person
especially like male to male
like
it's not what we used to do
so like I said someone
and they were like started crying
and then opened up about something to deal with
like maybe they just needed to hear that
from someone especially from
another guy that's like
it's such
a easy but not easy thing
to do but people need to do it
yeah same as
a simple hug it's amazing how you hug
some people and they hug you strongly
and you realize that they really needed that hug
at that moment
exactly yeah that's full but
exactly
all right well then moving to what you're
doing today then talk to me about
the weapons training that you're doing
and what the company offers
so Mike Odad
was on SEAL Team 7 he actually
put me through third phase in BUDS
and he started this company
Defense Strategies Group in 2020
and basically we teach
firearms self defense to
you know moms dads
firearms safety courses
for kids
just teach people how to defend
themselves and their family in their home
and it's been
incredible I
started I joined in DSG
through Angel Gortez
who's an army ranger
he has this company called the O.G.
Pumpkin he was a gangster
yeah he you know
got out of that life
joined the army
now he gets back to his community and
met him at a Jiu Jitsu open mat
he threw for veterans and
you know I just chatted
up with him and he asked me to
if I wanted to be a guest instructor at the pistol
shooting course because it was Angel and Mike
and a sitcher and then
they invited me a few more times and
then eventually asked me to join
and sat down with them for almost
two years
it's been incredible just
now like the purpose
my purpose is back and the brother I lost
when I left the Navy is reconnected
and I've never been happier
like oh those guys my life
for that
and we just opened a gym
called Training Center LA
MMA
combatives gym so now we teach
Jiu Jitsu Muay Thai
self defense classes
that was three months ago so
now we're full steam just trying to give back
our knowledge share our stories and
build a community of people
that are looking for purpose in
home and learn how to defend themselves
beautiful
what about
you mentioned about training kids
what's your philosophy on
educating children and
getting them familiar with firearms in an environment
where for example America where
they just are everywhere at the moment
versus keeping them away
and you know and not
making them almost scared of them
and God forbid one day they come across
one by a mistake
exactly so
we're basically showing them like
you know if you see a gun don't touch it
get a parent but if you for whatever reason had
to this is how you clear and safe it
this is how it works these are the safety
rules like respect the firearm
but don't be scared of it
it's not a toy just a tool
it's
it's been fun working with them and teaching the kids
jujitsu classes like
just building hard men again
strong kids like
you know get off your phone and
scrap each other and like
this is the martial arts way
like be kind to people
don't be a bully but if
you have to defend yourself you're
you know your brother or sister your family
then you have the tools to do that
and just building
building strong people again because we live
in a weak society so
or changing that course
changing the course absolutely
yeah I said this the other day on
an interview I think it was one of the gracies
that said this but if every child
was taught jujitsu or a martial
arts you know a lot of the bullying
would go away and it's not
that everyone will be tough and be able to fight the
bullies it's the fact that the bullies themselves
will be humbled and start
learning you know the respect and
the teamwork and you know
all the elements that martial arts do bring
and I agree 100% I mean you know as
we all know most bullies are cowards and
they're just trying to make themselves
feel better by dragging someone down well the
martial arts will lift that person up
you know because they've probably got weak men at home
if they're becoming a bully so
the mentors in the martial arts gym
maybe would fill that void and
maybe that would even permeate back to the parents
and elevate them too
I totally agree
bullies are basically people with
massive insecurities there's like
I say it's a lot of insecurities loud
and bullies are very loud insecure
have like trauma
that they're just putting on other people
to mask their own healing
it just keeps getting passed down
by generation to generation so if you break that
mold when they're young then they won't be able
to pass it down like down the bloodline
forever eventually just get stopped in
the middle and they could rebuild from there
absolutely
well I want to shift some closing
questions so I can be mindful of your time
the first one I love to ask
is there a book or are there books
that you love to recommend it can be related
to our discussion today or completely
unrelated
it's going to be a little funny answer
I've asked this one so far
I've never read a book start to finish
I failed at or I almost
failed at high school I cheated my way through high school
didn't want to read
the closest book though
that I read the most is the bible
and I read like prayers
every morning or on my app and
I
recommend that
and I do a lot
of research things so I find topics that
intrigue me
keeps doing that and
I would say just pick a topic
that you're interested in
and then just
find a book that is recommended like
I can't necessarily give one because I haven't
read one start to finish but for me it was the bible
well the bible is a good
good one a lot of people love it
alright then what about films
and movies oh sorry films
and documentaries should I say
films I was
more cultured from movies
like gladiator the patriot
same proud ryan
shit like that like just
I like
just like violence
you know people
being skilled in their craft and I love
the way those movies were made
I also really like documentary
free solo with alex honnell the
rock climber he just like
because I related to him like he wasn't
afraid to die he was willing to
do that to achieve something
that's never been done so I was like
I understand where his mind was at
and I thought that he filmed that and he
could like go inside his brain which is
very interesting I
recommend those for sure
yeah I think one of the biggest take aways
as well is if you actually
listen to it the preparation
he wasn't just like oh I'm gonna try it
you know and if I die I die it was
it was you know years of
preparation and making sure that for each
section that he was gonna be able to do it and then
sequentially gonna be able to do it so
it reminds me a lot of the bass jumpers I've had
on you know they one of them
my friend he said
a lot of people in whatever it
is will say well we need to be 95%
effective he's like in bass jump you have
to be 100 you know 99 means
that you ended up splattered on the ground so
you know their diligence
and their preparation is actually
you know paramount and so
the application for the military
for a firefighter is the same you know
when your life is at stake or someone
else's life is at stake we should
be thinking that way we should be thinking like
Alex Honnold now we're
obviously responsible for such a huge
set of skills we can't be experts in every
one of them but we can at least try and elevate
as much as we can
yeah basically being a perfectionist
like preparing to where you're so
confident in the task you're about to do
yeah it's like like you said
preparation and the work
put in like his
life was that is that
and he's able to achieve that by
just grinding super fucking hard
and yeah
it's incredible incredible documentary
amazing there's another
one oh my
goodness the alpinist have you
ever seen that one um i've heard
of it i have not but let me write that down
yeah watch it i can't tell you anything about
it it's one of those ones you've got to go for the ride
but uh if you love free solo
you'd love that one as well awesome
i'll check it out all right
well then the next question is there a person
you'd recommend become on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first
responders military and associated
professionals of the world
yes one that just came
in mind is my my good friend ian
funk um
his instagram is grappler
with a sign he's a marine veteran
and jujitsu brown belt
and he's a fireman
um just finished paramedic school
so he's an incredible
human being um
he has a deep story actually is
also from boston was a
golden glove uh boxer
just a great human i think he'd
be incredible i would love to hear
i don't think he's ever been on one so
i think you guys could relay down on topics and
just a great dude
yeah beautiful yeah i'd love to
if you could make that happen and make the connection that would be amazing
let's do it absolutely awesome
brilliant all right well then the last
question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you
and dsg what
do you do to decompress
for me to
decompress jujitsu competing
in jujitsu it just grounds me
it it quiets my mind to basically
no thoughts um
now it's hanging out with my girlfriend
whether we go to
the shooting range go to the beach
hang out i'm a very simple man um
the beach jujitsu
hanging out with friends and family
beautiful
well for people that want to
learn more about you want to find dsg
where are the best places online and on
social media
um instagram my instagram is
at zach ferg z-a-c-e-k-k
ferg you have to type out the full thing because i'm shadowed in
uh and then
defense strategies group
at defense strategies group instagram
and then at training center la is our mma gym
if you want to come uh learn some
self-defense classes come by stop by anytime
beautiful
i you said you got shadow banned
i got shut down by instagram the other day
for sharing literally a positivity post
and i have no idea
why i'm sure there's a you know
backstory of
you know who knows who knows why
it was completely innocent so i have no
idea anyway so i sent
you another request it's behind the
shield 9112.0
so okay um
you'll be able to find me again but yeah
looks like we've both been having a shitty time on instagram
huh yeah it's crazy
um just want to say thank you uh
james for having me on
um you know behind
the shield podcast guys check it out
um and then ryan birdman
appreciate you connecting us together
i love you love both of you and
uh i'm stoked to share my story thank
you for having me on and your time and what
you do and being a fireman
too it's like i love firemen
i have so much respect for you guys so thank
you guys for everything thank
you mate love you too