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Welcome to episode three of Behind the Shield. My name is James Gearing and I will be a host for

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this podcast. My guest on this episode is American farmer Joel Salatin. Now Joel other than a farmer

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is also a lecturer and an author. His books include Folks This Ain't Normal, You Can Farm,

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and The Marvelous Pigness of Pigs. Joel is an English major from Bob Jones University.

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He is featured in food documentaries Food Inc and Fresh, which I recommend both of those.

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He has done TED Talks and spoken at Google. Joel is known for his holistic method of animal husbandry.

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He has a very unique look at not only the way the animals are raised but even the way the food that

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they eat is grown. So he will move his animals geographically through his farm.

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To make sure that the acorns, the grass, whatever they're actually eating normally

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has grown to the point where it has the maximum nutrition and the minimum amount of stress.

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So the product is the healthiest, leanest meat that you can get and therefore this low stress,

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high nutrition environment creates the healthiest meat for the people that he sells to.

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He doesn't use any chemicals, any drugs or GMO feed. Now this whole topic is so important to me.

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When you look outside the window, you look at our fellow citizens here in the US, in the UK

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and other Western developed countries, you are seeing a growing trend of ill health.

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This can absolutely be improved through exercise and movement but let's say you exercise for

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four days a week about an hour at a time. Well that's only four hours total in the 150 odd hours

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a week that you have available to you. So the rest of the time is obviously in that balance of

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energy in, energy out. The quality of that food is even more important. The gastrointestinal tract

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is 80% of your immune system. So what you put in is either going to hurt or nourish your body.

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The food that we've been eating, even the salads and the vegetables and people think they're eating

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well, if they're covered in pesticides, if people are wearing hazmat suits to apply this to the food

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that then goes into your children's body, clearly every cell in that food is not going to be

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beneficial. It's going to have some good properties but obviously some bad properties as well.

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When you go locally to organic farms and you get vegetables and fruit that have not been sprayed

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with these chemicals, that have been grown naturally, that's 100% nourishment, 100% nutrition.

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The same with the meat. If the meat has not been treated with hormones and antibiotics and the meat

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hasn't been shoulder to shoulder in some god-awful warehouse with these stress hormones just surging

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through these poor animals, if its growth hasn't been rapidly accelerated through chemicals,

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then the meat that you ingest is going to nourish your body. If it's this sick, overdeveloped meat

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that's kept alive through pharmaceuticals, then again this meat is not going to nourish, it's

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going to hurt. We've seen a rapid increase in the amount of disease in this country, heart disease,

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cancer and I am 100% sure that a large part of it is to do with the food that we are served.

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The other benefit of buying locally from these sustainable farms is you remove the transportation

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costs, you remove the packaging, the impact on the environment. So your local farmer, if you select

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one that prescribes to the same philosophy, doesn't have to ship that food 3000 miles,

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doesn't have to cling wrap it and irradiate it and all the other processes that happen to the food

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that are in the supermarket. And the misunderstanding that this food is more expensive is another

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lie. You take away the middleman, the publics, the supermarket that's obviously trying to make

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a profit and understandably so, the cost of processing, the cost of packaging, the cost of

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transportation and you go from the home directly to the source, i.e. your local farmer, they can

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afford to give you this product at a cheaper rate than the grocery stores do because all those

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middlemen that are taking a cut have been eliminated. So that's the problem.

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So that is a fallacy that good food is more expensive. It really isn't if you know where to look.

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The other element is we consume way too much meat in this country. So to think of it more like

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quality instead of quantity, you take out a third of your meat consumption, replace it with more

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vegetables, beans, that kind of thing. When you do buy your meat, you buy the high quality meat and

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that way you're nourishing your body instead of hurting it. So in this interview, we talk about

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the food industry and how it became industrialized in the first place. We touch on the effects of

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this process on our food and why chemicals are usually used in factory farming, how sustainable

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farming creates the best quality food, how to find the local farmer. Joel's up in the northeast so

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everyone listening to this needs to find a farmer that subscribes to this same philosophy

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in their local area. So he'll talk about it and we'll provide links to where he suggests on the

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show notes as well. And then how to start a garden, how to take even that farmer out of the equation

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and grow some of this stuff yourself. So it doesn't have to be an entire smorgasbord of

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vegetables and fruit but there's a few things that are very easy to grow in your local area.

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You can have chickens and a chicken coop. There's all kinds of ideas that he comes up with

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and making yourself more sustainable and that's going to affect how much you spend on food.

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If you're growing it yourself then you can remove that cost from buying those certain

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vegetables or eggs or poultry. I am very excited to introduce Joel. I think he's a voice that we

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don't normally hear. When we talk about nutrition you hear the doctor telling you about lower your

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cholesterol, remove fats from your diet and you talk about calorie counting and all these areas

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of nutrition but no one ever talks about where the food comes from fundamentally and how if you eat

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this type of food and have an abundance of vegetables on your plate you can really forget

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about calorie counting. This will totally nourish your body and if you remove a lot of the processed

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foods you really eliminate the need to quote unquote count calories. So without further ado

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I am extremely excited to introduce to you Joel Salatin.

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So thank you so much for agreeing to be on Behind the Shield. One of the main problems that we have

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in first responders, firemen, policemen, EMS is miseducation I guess you could say from the

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dietary point of view. There's a big push on the exercise side of losing weight and that kind of

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thing but I think there's a huge lack of knowledge of the kinds of food people should be eating and

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also fundamentally where that food is coming from in the first place. So I'd love to take you down

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that road and have you educate everyone that's listening. I wonder if we could start with the

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actual farm itself. I understand your parents bought the farm is that correct? Yes my mom and

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dad bought this when I was just four in 1961 so we've been here not quite 60 years and I grew up

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here. My mother's still alive and day-to-day operations are now done by our son Daniel and

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we have our grandchildren here so we have four generations here on the farm. Fantastic and when

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you got there was the soil in incredible condition? It was in incredible condition, incredibly bad.

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We had very large gullies like corrugated roofing down the hillside, large rock areas that had

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no vegetation on them whatsoever. These were shale areas, a quarter acre or so in size that

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literally it was bare bare rock and today all those areas are covered up with 12 inches of soil.

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You know it's not three feet like it was 500 years ago but at least it's covered up and growing

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something and the gullies are healing slowly and it was arguably the armpit of the community today.

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It's I would say arguably the most productive farm in the community. Yeah certainly the most

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well known that's for sure. I grew up on a farm myself, my father was a veterinary surgeon in

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England so I've had a unique perspective of you know 2016 and the years prior and how we are fed

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and the choices that we make. I know that we weren't completely organic, I remember using

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fertilizer and pesticide on some of the foods and you know the chickens were fed meal as well

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as pecking around in the grass and I know we're going to talk about the way that you farm some

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of those but it gave me a different perspective when I came over here and see so many people

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choosing their food from the fridge you know the frozen aisle or everything being in a packet.

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Now did you always want to be a farmer? Were you destined to be a farmer since you were young?

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Yes from my earliest memories I definitely wanted to be a farmer. I think you know looking back

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as you start thinking about your childhood memories sometimes I realize now the impact

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that my grandfather's farm and my great uncle's farm had on me. My grandfather actually I shouldn't

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say farm his garden and my uncle's farm you know I said we came to this place it was just you know

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rocks and weeds and gullies and it was in rough shape but their places my grandfather was a charter

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subscriber to Rodale's Organic Gardening and Farming magazine in 1949 had a just this lush

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garden it was bounded with a tea trellis grape arbor and I was a kid you know and you could

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reach up and just pick these these ripe succulent grapes and it just seemed you know boundless to

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me and I think I never got away from that almost subconscious desire to to nest in abundance to be

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able to walk out the back door every day and feel like you're like you're immersed and nestled

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in abundance very very powerful metaphor. Yeah absolutely now your your parents then when you

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were growing up clearly they had a different philosophy than than a lot of people in that

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generation so so how how was their philosophy formed to kick so hard against what a lot of

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the other farms were doing around them? That's a great question my my dad his degree was in

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economics he was in World War II and then after the went to college after the war and got his

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degree in economics and he I think he came to this more from an economic level than an

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environmental level and he realized early on that the the chemical approach whether it's chemical

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fertilizer or pesticide herbicide whatever but that that that trying to um trying to beat nature

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with chemicals was essentially a drug addiction it was like a drug addiction and it was a it was a

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vicious circle where you couldn't you couldn't ever get ahead because nature bats last and so

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you were constantly looking for more potent chemicals you know more just just more more

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chemicals you know we used 100 pounds last year we got to use 200 this year and he just saw it as a

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as a treadmill that you could you could never get off of I mean like economically you know you

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you can't um you can't you can't in uh you can't get yourself into wealth you know

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and and you can't chemicalize yourself into health either and he saw that I think is primarily an

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economic equation much more than an environmental equation which is kind of which is kind of

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interesting uh because most people as soon as they hear about you know not using all that stuff

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they assume that you don't have an appreciation for economics because economics means that you go to

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concentrated animal feeding operations and factories and and you know industrial uh

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monospeciated farms and chemicals and all that stuff so I like to point that out because because

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I think the assumption is that that when you do well by the environment you you hurt yourself

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economically and if you're going to do well economically you necessarily have to

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make some compromises on the environment yeah absolutely it kind of reminds me of uh I did an

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economics class years and years ago in England and one of the only things that stuck I don't even

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think I finished the class to be honest but um was the term false economy and and I think that's

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where we're at now is that they thought that these these uh farming methods were gonna save money in

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you know initially but obviously in the long run now we have a nation of extremely unwell people

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and now we're like like you said the debt is now having to be paid physically and I remember you

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had a great quote in one of your interviews I heard you in um a gentleman in the 1940s had said

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something about if you put chemicals in your food uh it was eventually the people will have to be

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chemicalized as well yeah yeah that was sir Albert Howard uh the the British um agronomist who

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brought aerobic the scientist who brought basically the the aerobic composting formula of carbon

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nitrogen uh moisture oxygen and microbes to the to the world in 1943 writing his iconic and

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agricultural testament which is kind of considered you know one of the one of the pillars of the

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entire uh whatever sustainable ag regenerative agriculture movement uh he said uh when we use

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artificial manures that's what he called chemical fertilizers artificial manures we um we grow

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artificial plants which feed artificial animals which make artificial people who can only be

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kept alive by using artificial and of course look at our pharmaceutical industry um you know that

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was that was 1943 when he said that and certainly you know being kept alive with artificial um is

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certainly where our nation has come at this point absolutely yeah I think that pretty much anyone

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that deals with um EMS that's listening to this can testify that we have these patients with with

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literally a trash bag full of medications and they're not fixing anything at all and the the

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bigger irony is anyone in the medical community has to take the Hippocratic oath yeah Hippocrates

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himself said let food be thy medicine so that's to me the biggest irony you can possibly have in the

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medical industry right now yes and and I think one of the one of the problems is that nobody knows

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what their tolerances are uh you know I don't want anybody to to to listening to this to think that

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I'm some sort of a cultish and and and um it's anathema to ever eat a Snickers bar or even drink

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a Coke for that matter okay but there's a big difference between having one once a month as a

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little treat and having two a day or three a day and and you know moderation in all things and so

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uh I and you know EMS personnel routinely spend a lot of time hanging out at the rescue squad or

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the fire station or whatever and what do we do when we just kind of hang around well we we we

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snack you know we we snack on things and um and so you know the the old adage you know that the

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the cops all go down to Dunkin Donuts um you know it's there's a reason it's humor is as good humor

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is because there's an element of truth to it and so um we need to appreciate that none of us knows

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where our tolerances are we don't know when that when that snacking and what we're snacking on is

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going to result in diabetes or obesity or or you know any of these kinds of things and the truth

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is if you look at the label you know you can't pronounce half of the stuff that's on the label

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and that's brand new in the human lexicon and the human gut that the microbiome uh you know was not

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was not designed to handle things that you needed to be a scientist in a laboratory to make

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or things that that were too hard to pronounce to say I'm kind of a with Michael Pollan who says

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you know we probably shouldn't eat anything that wasn't available before 1900 that's kind of when

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things really went south and of course we can all be very thankful that the hot dogs were introduced

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at the 1890 world's fair so you know hot dogs just squeaked in under the uh under the 1900s

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benchmark that was the ones without nitrates back then probably yes oh yeah absolutely yeah

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on our on our farm we make uh we make hot dogs and uh yeah they don't have anything unpronounceable

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you know it's just beef and pork and and uh they're they're really great and they actually

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it actually tastes like food they don't taste like you know some uh synthetic material yeah

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absolutely so that that kind of pushed me to the next question I think this is a huge pivotal one

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we obviously our generation I'm 42 now so I was raised outside of my farm I was raised to

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to believe that you know it's safe to spray all our food and insecticides and you know the mass

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production and uh pasteurizing our milk and all these other other areas that we literally were

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taught by our school boards and our health boards of the respective countries so when did the

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industrialization of food really begin and then what was the the regression from there

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well I think that the real uh catalyst came post world war two because um you have to remember that

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ammunition bombs explosives are made from nitrogen potassium and phosphorus and of course those are

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the three things that are in chemical fertilizer and so after world war two we had all these stock

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piles of of np and k we had all these uh businesses you know that uh you know big businesses that had

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developed to to to mine and bag and and and create np and k and so it was extremely cheap and so um

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the natural thing was well let's find a market for these things let's go and and of course in that day

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you know you could sprinkle some of this on the soil and it would really take off well the soil

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a lot of the soils responded to it um because they still had organic matter left over from draft

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power from all the animal manures and and all that stuff so you know they responded to it and so

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I'm a little bit careful to um you know to cast great disparagements on you know on on great

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grandpa who reached for that bag of chemical fertilizer as opposed to shoveling shoveling

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shoveling shoveling shoveling shoveling shoveling uh in a day when you know there were not front end

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loaders uh you know there was so the alternative was well do I do I spread his little bag of stuff

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I mean it's like a miracle or do I shovel and people were tired of shoveling they've been

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shoveling all the time and so uh for the first five or six years you know this this took off

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and of course it was all cheap because they were leftover stockpiles from the war effort

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in many cases it had virtually been paid for and was just you know a salvage operation so it was

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extremely cheap extremely um um you know marketable it was it was um accessible and so uh that that

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took off well in the early 1950s then you know we had the development of the tractor and of course

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of course rural electrification plastic pipe uh chippers shredders um you know and gradually

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the components the components to run a true carbon-centric system gradually came into being

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through the 1950s so that by 1960 there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to be using

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chemical fertilizers but by that time that orthodoxy was so entrenched in the cultural psyche

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that it was very difficult to as we say unring that bell you can't unring a bell and so you

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couldn't you couldn't restart that clock by that time you know the land grant universities the

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research uh non-profits all of the the usda all of these things were were stacked and stocked

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with a paradigm that was a chemical oriented uh paradigm the truth is that with we if we had had

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a manhattan project for compost um not only would we have fed the world we would have done it without

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uh three-legged salamanders infertile frogs in a in a dead zone the gulf the size of new jersey

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in the gulf of mexico that's the truth but we didn't have a manhattan product project for that

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we had a manhattan project for something else and so um so that that's where we ended up

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right and then the the uh i guess the monsanto uh pesticide area was another separate

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arm of that whole movement well yeah well you know it's like every um if you read uh you know

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the diffusion of innovation these business books that talk about you know um uh new things and how

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to how they market how they change markets and how markets adapt what you see is this is this um

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you know gentle slow start and then as and then it comes to this the trajectory starts to steepen

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and steepen uh because you get all the all the components necessary to make it efficient you

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know uh mining uh um laboratories uh distribution packaging uh marketing advertising you know all

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these things have to come together and so it just it just got you know steeper and the the curve got

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faster and faster and so you know what started out as as pigs coming in off of pasture and going

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into a small piggery of of 20 sows gradually became a piggery you know a concentrated animal

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feeding operation of of of uh 5 000 sows uh pigs uh chickens the same thing antibiotics played a

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huge role in this because prior to antibiotics you simply couldn't um um you know put this many

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animals in one spot in such filthy conditions and have them survive so the the concentrated animal

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feeding operation was definitely a product of of antibiotics that allowed us to keep these animals

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alive in such uh filthy and unsanitary conditions and then of course you had petroleum came along

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which allowed us to efficiently transport stuff i mean you couldn't have a capo 150 years ago

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because you you simply couldn't put you couldn't bring in that much food stuff and haul out that

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much manure you simply couldn't do it 150 years ago because you couldn't do it with draft power

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it was too transportation was too expensive and too difficult too arduous and laborious

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but when petroleum came along and transportation was extremely cheap then all of these historic

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kind of boundaries um uh could be could be broken and you could just and you could do pretty much

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anything you wanted to so you have a pocket full of antibiotics and the truck is idling in the

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you know on the porch and suddenly all these historic um historic parameters these historic

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norms um you know could be could be punched through you know we didn't have to uh do only what we could

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move with draft power we didn't have to do only what we could shovel or or move and you know um

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and then as we did that you know the the capacity to take that paradigm on down the road uh did

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did indeed occur and um you know Joel Arthur Barker who wrote the book uh paradigms uh said

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that every paradigm eventually exceeds its point of efficiency and that's of course exactly where

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we are now as this paradigm of concentrated animals segregated uh food systems monospeciation

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uh chemical fertilization and now of course uh you know genetically modified organisms and whatever

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uh these have now you know uh continued to accelerate and and so now suddenly in the last

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30 years we have this burgeoning uh problem with um for example food allergies um you know when I

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was growing up the phrase food allergies didn't even exist I mean nobody said anything you could

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you could have a potluck or a get-together nobody had to worry about gluten or peanuts or or whatever

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and now you know you can't have a get-together without accommodating half a dozen uh special

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food allergy requests then you have you know E. coli salmonella campylobacter listeria bovine

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spongiform encephalopathy you know all of these things have come in the last 30 years as that

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supposedly um progressive and scientific uh paradigm has exceeded its point of efficiency

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and nature is now nature is now batting last and and we're seeing it of course in consequences as

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you mentioned you know in uh you know bags full of uh of of medications and um and you know social

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uh emotional problems uh from you know from rage to depression to uh all sorts of things that of

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course first responders deal with on a daily basis for sure first responders are on the

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you know on the cutting edge of society's fringes and um and it's it's society's fringes

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where you see the the fabric the matrix of a civilization you see them beginning to crumble

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crumble and so first responders have a have a very unique and special uh look into the the

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mortar that's cracking on the bastions of civilization it's quite profound yeah that's

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a very good way of looking at never even thought about that but we certainly i think to me it's

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just so blatant that the philosophy we have in our health care at the moment just does not work

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it's not like someone has blood pressure medicine for six months and then they come up to you one

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day like god that medicine works so well my blood pressure is perfect now i don't have to take it

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anymore that never happens they're on that medication the rest of their life they're on the

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the diabetes medication the cholesterol medication and and you you see i see my blood work from the

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way i eat and and you see some of these great documentaries food ink and forks over knives and

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fat sick and nearly dead and you see these people healed just by returning and eating the way they

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were supposed to eat a hundred years ago and it's that simple and and yet this this lie is so

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ingrained in people's psyche that when you talk to them like that you get looked at like you're

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you know you just pooped in their cornflakes and it's it's it's it's incredible that i mean

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that you know they've managed to to pull that off in such a short time well it it certainly is and

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and and uh and then then you have the the fire station or rescue squad again everybody's hanging

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around there so they've got vending machines with nabs and and soda and all this then i mean it's

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it's uh it's just it's just a disaster uh waiting to happen and so yes the whole food the body food

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connection is um is profoundly inarguable today and everywhere i go i i you know i run into people

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that have you know healed their children from autism healed themselves from uh you know cancers

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uh all sorts of things simply by fundamentally changing diet you know the the human the human

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experience um you know was not designed to be um you know to be propped up to have crutches of

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pharmaceuticals you know that that should be the the the person that needs this stuff should be an

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anomaly not the norm and and the fact that it is becoming such a such a norm is indicative that

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something is you know greatly out of whack absolutely i know the one of the statistics that

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blew me away was and i didn't realize it still somewhat recently that the gi tract is actually

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80 of our immune system so obviously whatever you put in your mind is going to be a huge

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in your mouth that travels through that tube and comes out your other end is going to affect you

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positively or negatively and as you mentioned with the the uh bacteria in there it's going to kill

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them and and destroy everything or it's going to get them to bloom and thrive in the right way not

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in an imbalanced way like c diff or something like that yes well you know we we we are studying now

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a lot of the whole microbiome thing and uh you know each of us has has three trillion three

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trillion beings critters uh in our you know in our digestive tract three trillion i mean that's a

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pretty big community and you think about it there's a lot of intricacy there too and you know they

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have to build highways and have fire stations and rescue squads and hospitals and schools and you

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know go to the you know lions club and whatever i mean they're doing all sorts of stuff down there

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and uh and that that's a very complex uh community to maintain and if we put toxins into it if we put

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uh foreign material into that community it's going to upset that community just like you know

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polluted water in a community or or corrupt politicians or whatever you you throw corruption

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in a community and you're gonna you're gonna be in disarray and that's the same thing in this uh in

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this bacterial microbial community of three trillion members in our in our gut um you know we

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we don't we don't see it but uh it's nonetheless there and completely dependent on what we're

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what we're giving it every day right and is that am i correct in understanding that down the the

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line of gmos by messing with the genetic structure of these these you know basically foreign objects

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that the body is now not able to recognize them these these ancient ancient bacteria not able to

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recognize these particles that are coming in and that's what's causing the problems or am i off

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there uh no you're you're in the ballpark and you know i'm not a i'm not a scientist in that regard

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so i can't give you all the the latin ins and outs of this thing but yes you're exactly right the the

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the gmo studies that have been done where they actually feed them the way you and i would eat

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and not in some special contrived uh prejudicial study that monsanto sets up um the the the

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the the truth i mean i'll give you an example when when um when monsanto was looking at gmo potatoes

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for example they specifically chose um they specifically chose geriatric rats this is all

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in uh jeffrey smith's um book uh seeds of deception it's a great book anybody that wants to

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you know get a kind of layman's look at gmos and so they they got geriatric rats and fed them well

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they didn't see any difference in the gmos versus the non-gmo but when the same experiment was

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repeated in uh scotland but but instead of being completely repeated they repeated everything except

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except they used juvenile rats instead of geriatric rats well then suddenly they had all sorts of

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problems they had they had uh organ you know organ malfunction they had sociopathy had a mental you

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know um mental breakdown um just you know all sorts of problems just by changing the experiment

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from geriatric rats who already you know had their routines and their and their personalities

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and their organs and whatever you know there's no you know geriatrics they they don't change much

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they've already lived their life and it's it's done uh you don't see the big differences but in

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the in the young ones where the metabolism is faster and they're still developing they saw you

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know huge huge differences and so you know these kinds of studies have been now done

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all over the world and um the only people who can't see them of course are the people who are

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um you know who are who are in agreement with the basic idea that life is fundamentally mechanical

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and you know that that's where it comes down um you know the the industrial mindset suggests that

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that life is fundamentally mechanical and we can tweak and move and and adjust this dna and that

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dna and throw chemicals on the soil and and whatever whereas many of us believe that life

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is fundamentally not mechanical but biological and there's a huge difference between biology

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and mechanics uh one of the big differences is that uh that that living things are spontaneous

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they they kind of think they don't just follow a routine uh they they often you know kind of have

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a mind of their own but the main thing is that biological things can heal mechanical things

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can't if a bearing goes out in your in your front wheel of your truck um you know it's not going to

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it's not going to get better by rest or by you know praying over or whatever it's only going to

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get better if you take it out and replace it um but you know biological things can heal they can

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be in rough shape and you can change the diet you can change the support you can you can have

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a relationship that's gone south and you can ask for a forgiveness and apologize and the relationship

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can be healed i mean this this fundamental idea that that biological systems can heal is the great

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hope is the great hope that we have and um it's it's a wonderful thing compared to compared to

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mechanics but the entire industrial food system that you know that you can live on on twinkies

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and cocoa puffs and mountain dew uh is predicated on a on the idea that your body and my body and

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life is fundamentally mechanical and it doesn't really matter um it doesn't really matter what

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biology goes in yeah it's it's very uh it's very scary i think one of the other fundamental things

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that that we're seeing you know in the last few generations now is it seems like if you remove

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the desire to have all the money all the power and just disseminate it back to the whole country

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we would eliminate a lot of those problems as well and you see that with the mega farms now

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you know one or two farm companies that want to provide all the food to the entire country or the

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world for that matter i mean of course it's going to just fundamentally fall apart instead of having

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all these small farms being supported by by their local communities and the food traveling you know

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as i know your policy is less than four hours um and that way it's not being packaged it's not

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being frozen or irradiated or any of those things you go to your local farmer you you pick up your

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food and then you bring it home yeah well there are a lot of aspects to the you know the global

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food matrix um as you mentioned that you know the first one being opaqueness i mean you just can't

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you can't follow that chain of custody and so so you don't know what is going on in that you know

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shrimp farm in thailand that's showing up at your applebee's restaurant and so when you start eating

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more local you actually have a shorter chain of custody from farm to farm to plate and the shorter

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chain of custody allows you to have more accountability because there's more transparency in that shorter

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chain of custody and i think i think another thing that's really powerful is that when you have a

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local-centric food system you you actually uh increase a capacity for resilience and security

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in the food system you know when you're dependent on a costco warehouse a thousand miles away

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uh that ultimately is a fairly fragile system i mean you have to assume that trucks can run on time

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that computers work that uh the merchant marine gets their you know their stuff hauled to the dock

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on uh on time um you know a lot of things have to work uh smoothly in that situation but when you

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have a local-centric system where you know your farmer or you you know you're very very close

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you can actually see what's on inventory you know where it is uh you can you can walk there if you

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add to the point is that there's a tremendous amount of resiliency and forgiveness built into

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the system when you have a proximity between producer and consumer as opposed to long distance

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yeah absolutely and i think that another huge uh lie really or or misunderstanding i guess would be

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a more gentle way of saying it is that the pesticide covered foreign fruit and vegetables

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for example that we find in our our shelves in the local supermarket are cheaper than organic and

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obviously they are if you buy the organic in the same shop or in whole foods but if you just go

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to your local farmers market it's cheaper i mean i i have bags and bags full of of produce that i

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buy once a week from my local farm and i mean literally probably four or five of those cloth

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grocery bags is for about 50 there's no way in hell you'd be able to buy that much food

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in this but but again it's it's that simple simple message doesn't get out there and if

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you remove the middleman and the price of the gas and the taxes and and all the other uh skimming

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that goes on between them and you then all of a sudden it's cheaper and they still make their

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money and you still get your food yes well that's exactly right and and um you know you're mentioning

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you're mentioning this makes me uh think about the just the cost of of processing and packaging and

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and all that you know the the way the way to get affordable food is to get whole food you know just

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just raw food and then use your own kitchen to prepare package preserve uh you know to the food

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i was in um i was in new york city a couple of years ago and um we went down to the green market

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there on union square arguably the most expensive farmers market in the most expensive city of the

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world and i asked my hostess could you take me to the most good could you show me the most expensive

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potato in this market she said oh i know just the guy so we you know shoulder away through the crowd

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come up to this uh farmer with his stand and he's got a like a credenza you know a bunch of little

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cubbies with all these potatoes and he has about 20 different varieties orange ones red ones blue

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ones long ones skinny ones round ones whatever and so i looked and i found the most expensive

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one it was a blue peruvian heirloom fingerling potato for a dollar 99 a pound which is you know

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a little bit pricey for potatoes but all around that uh that green market are supermarkets

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with 120 feet of fluorescent lighted tile floor

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with shelves full of potato chips for 2.99 a pound you know uh way way more expensive

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than those little potatoes so when i say you know get in your kitchen um i don't mean go back to

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you know washboards hoop skirts and hearth cooking as romantic as that may sound to somebody who's

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never done it um you know we've never technogadgetized our kitchens as comfortably as we have today with

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hot and cold running water refrigerators freezers uh you know flickable button stoves slow cookers

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tom's bake um uh Cuisinart's fry babies bread makers ice cream makers Tupperware

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grandma would have given her eye teeth for all this stuff um and so it's never it's we've never

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been able to more efficiently or sanitarily or or or simply you know actually prepare food

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and and yet you know the average american is far more interested

391
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,720
and knowledgeable about the latest dysfunction in the kardashian household

392
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:09,360
than they are what's going to become flesh of their flesh and bone in their bones at six o'clock

393
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:17,200
and and when and when that's the case when that's the case those shortcuts that we take

394
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:23,360
for our own food and nutrition our own body's well-being those shortcuts are going to come back

395
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:30,880
to haunt us and of course that's exactly what we see yeah and again you touched with the packaging

396
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:38,400
i mean if you look at the grocery cart full of of food by the time you empty all of those food

397
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,280
items out of whatever surrounding them you end up with two garbage bags full of crap that you've

398
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:49,360
got to get rid of now somewhere whereas if you are taking home cloth bags full of of uh of

399
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,040
vegetables you have zero packaging yeah yeah that's exactly right that's exactly right

400
00:45:55,040 --> 00:46:01,440
yeah well i mean just for just for your own uh you know for just for canning i mean if you bought

401
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,640
a bushel basket full of green beans and and just canned them uh we you know we get an argument

402
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,040
about canning or not but let's just assume that i mean put them in glass jars you know

403
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,120
there's there's there's virtually no waste except you know you're probably going to throw away the

404
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:25,200
little uh the little lid um but the comparison in the amount of packaging material for landfills

405
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:37,200
and for petroleum use and just the sheer uh volume of that is is amazing yeah absolutely i mean it

406
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:42,720
would make such a huge difference on on uh i think everyone's community i mean because some people

407
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:50,640
might not have that giant uh bird-filled mountain in their in their uh local area yet but if you go

408
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,680
to any any larger urban area i mean they they have those things at the side of the freeways and

409
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,040
they're just getting bigger and bigger and bigger so something has to stop there too

410
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:06,240
yeah uh-huh that's right so i'm going to transition now a little bit to to polyface so first i had a

411
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:08,400
question about polyface where did you come up with the name

412
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:18,560
well uh poly of course is the greek um the the latin prefix for many and so we knew that we wanted

413
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:26,080
to do a lot of different things so we decided that we would be polyface the farm of many faces

414
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:33,520
right and uh i know you have several different uh species of livestock on there but i'm going to

415
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:39,920
take the lifestyles from realtà here you go the uh% x took our pronouncements and learned

416
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:46,800
it he could do all of that so and participated so basically the um so overall the protocol

417
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,400
is just going to come from here like so we decided we wanted to play with the same

418
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,080
families with different types of yield characteristics so they would just go ahead and

419
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,320
tell him how they're gonna continue to self-지

420
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:02,720
Okay, so grass grows in an S-curve, a sigmoid curve.

421
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:08,320
It starts slow, then grows real fast, and then goes into senescence and slows down.

422
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:15,240
And so the idea, the reason that there are so many herbivores around the planet is to

423
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:21,720
prune that grass as it moves towards senescence, to prune it back to pre-adolescent stage so

424
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:30,480
it can go through another vibrant, vigorous, green growth stage, which of course also means

425
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:36,800
that it's going to inhale carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, break off the carbon, leave

426
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:42,320
it in the soil, and exhale the oxygen so you and I can breathe.

427
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:50,520
So when we look at nature, at the template of nature, what we see are animals moving.

428
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,440
In fact, we see large herds of animals moving.

429
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,600
But we don't have those large herds anymore.

430
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:58,600
We don't have the wolves.

431
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,240
We don't have fire.

432
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:10,600
So an eight million head herd of bison running down through your Starbucks and the elementary

433
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,480
school might not be a really good thing.

434
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:21,360
What we do have now is electric fencing, which acts as a steering mechanism, a steering wheel,

435
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,840
a brake, and an accelerator on that four-legged pruner.

436
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:35,560
So we can now steer the animals, steer the animals around the pasture so that we perfectly

437
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:43,600
manage the meeting, the timing of that meeting between plant and animal so that they work

438
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:49,760
in symbiosis rather than competitively.

439
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:55,560
So the cows move every day at four o'clock to a new paddock that's been allowed to rest

440
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,920
for two or three months so the grass is long.

441
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:06,240
And we mob them in at high density so they look like a mob of wild herbivores.

442
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:10,000
And then tomorrow at four o'clock they'll move on to the next paddock.

443
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,720
And so any one area will only have a cow on it maybe three or four times in a year.

444
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:21,600
Then after the herd moves along, following about four days behind are the egg mobiles.

445
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,600
These are portable henhouses, chicken houses with layers, who free-range out from those

446
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:32,120
henhouses, scratch through the cow patties, eat out the fly larvae, sanitize the paddock,

447
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:37,800
turn the newly exposed grasshoppers and crickets into eggs, and work symbiotically with the

448
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,280
herbivores, just like the birds in nature.

449
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:46,560
So these are systems that we use.

450
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:56,080
Pigs are out in pig pastures with silvo pastures, widely spaced trees and grasses.

451
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,500
And again, they get moved not every day but every five to 12 days.

452
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:04,240
They get moved to a new paddock.

453
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,880
And those we touch three times a year.

454
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:12,760
Acorn glens in the forest for the pigs, those get touched once or twice a year.

455
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:18,680
They're more extensive and not quite as intensive.

456
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:23,920
So yeah, everything is out and moving along.

457
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:30,280
So it's moving free-range as it's designed to versus the factory meats that are stressed

458
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,920
and side by side and having to be medicated just to basically a chemical life support

459
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,920
until they're slaughtered.

460
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:42,240
Yes, well, yeah, we don't have to use the antibiotics and the grubicides, the parasiticides

461
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:48,240
and all those things that the industry uses because we're actually using the different

462
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:55,560
animals in symbiosis, in relational symbiosis to each other.

463
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:02,160
And there's nothing as exciting as a confused pathogen.

464
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:08,600
And in our industrial system, everything is about monospeciation, whether it's cherry

465
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:14,640
trees or wheat fields or a Tyson chicken farm.

466
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,880
The whole idea is to just grow one thing and grow it very densely and grow it over and

467
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,200
over and over again.

468
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:26,440
Well, all three of those things, one thing densely and over and over, nature doesn't

469
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,520
do any of that stuff.

470
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:39,840
Nature is always about multiple things and seasonal differences, different kinds of vegetation,

471
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:47,160
different times of the season and actually disturbance events, whether it's fire or

472
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:56,520
a big herd moving through, big flock of birds destroying an area for a day.

473
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:02,800
But nature is all about change up, change up.

474
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,080
And of course, industry is all about saying, keep it the same, keep it the same, keep it

475
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,080
the same.

476
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,200
Nature is all about spontaneity and dynamics.

477
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:20,640
And so on our farm, we build ponds, we have a lot of tree peninsulas, forestal zones to

478
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:27,400
stimulate wildlife and of course the pasture, so you have a lot of this edge effect, open

479
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:33,400
land, forest land, riparian, the ponds we can use for irrigation in a drought.

480
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:40,440
Water is gravity fed through a matrix of six miles of water line, water pipes.

481
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:48,000
We have fresh gravity, high pressure, gravity fed water on the whole place.

482
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:56,440
So it's not like we sit around here and do nothing, we just try to strategically interact

483
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:04,280
with the landscape in a way that builds resilience and redemptive capacity into the landscape.

484
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,280
Absolutely.

485
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:12,640
I've seen the incredible farm that you have now and to say that you went originally from

486
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:19,200
a very barren landscape, that model surely would be of great interest to areas that do

487
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,880
have more drought, whether it's domestic or international for potentially growing crops

488
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,520
and feeding people there too.

489
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,560
Yeah, that's right.

490
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:28,560
That's right.

491
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,520
Yeah, that would be incredible.

492
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,120
So the other question I'm sure that everyone's listening to now is I'm pretty sure they're

493
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,440
sold as I was when I first heard you talk a long time ago.

494
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,520
Side by side, there's absolutely no question.

495
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:47,240
That animal is inhumanely raised and obviously the meat is going to be very, very unhealthy

496
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:50,080
and we're seeing that with the ill health of our nation.

497
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,780
And then you've got the humanely raised that you're part of that group.

498
00:54:53,780 --> 00:55:01,480
So what are good resources for people to find a farm like yours in their local area?

499
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:09,240
Well fortunately, there are farms that are doing a good job virtually in every community.

500
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:15,120
You know, there's the Weston A. Price Foundation, they do the Smart Shoppers Guide.

501
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:22,920
Every state has some sort of sustainable ag, ecological agriculture network support group

502
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,080
in it.

503
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:32,160
Find out who that is and check with that outfit.

504
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:38,620
Check with your CrossFit gym or wellness centers, naturopath, acupuncturists, often anybody

505
00:55:38,620 --> 00:55:46,200
in that alternative wellness community will be plugged into the wellness food.

506
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:54,560
The point is that this is a non-front page undercurrent.

507
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,240
We are an alternative, a guerrilla tribe if you will.

508
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:06,360
And so we're everywhere but you have to find us, you have to seek us out.

509
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:16,760
And as soon as you start seeking farmers like ours out, you will find us.

510
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:24,840
For pastured livestock, there's eatwild.com which is the number one national website for

511
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:25,840
pasture-based livestock.

512
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:34,720
It's not a certification thing, it's just a place where farmers who do this can register.

513
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:39,560
So there's no substitute for knowing your farmer, know your food, go visit the farm.

514
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,520
If the farmer won't let you visit, then don't go there.

515
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,560
We have a 24-7, 365 open door policy here.

516
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,040
Anyone can come from anywhere, anytime to see anything unannounced.

517
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,400
That's our commitment to transparency.

518
00:56:54,400 --> 00:57:00,120
And so you just have to appreciate, you just have to understand that this is a tribe.

519
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:07,320
So if you're seeking that alternative wellness, seek out the alternative wellness community

520
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:13,080
in your community and you'll find a vibrant support network for these folks.

521
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:19,200
The Nutritional Therapy Association, nutritional therapists, they're a national network.

522
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:25,160
There are several groups that do nutritional therapy.

523
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:29,320
They're plugged in to this wellness community.

524
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,160
So yeah, it's there.

525
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,280
You just have to find it.

526
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,800
Fantastic.

527
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,800
You mentioned the word certification and just kind of jarred something else that I've been

528
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:41,280
meaning to ask you.

529
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:47,520
So you are known for preparing your chickens and that is the one I've seen outside in the

530
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,760
fresh air, in the pasture.

531
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,120
I know that's frowned upon by the governing agencies that be.

532
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,120
So how's that battle coming on?

533
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:04,120
Are the people starting to push now for deregulation of some of that stuff?

534
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:08,240
Oh, not really.

535
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,800
Generally speaking, it's getting worse and worse.

536
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:19,080
What we are seeing, I think, is a little more ability for small producers to comply with

537
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,080
licensing.

538
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:33,080
There does seem to be some give in the regulatory world to allow smaller outfits to comply cheaper,

539
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:34,080
easier.

540
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,440
This is as it should be.

541
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:39,440
Scale does make a difference.

542
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:48,440
It does make a difference whether you're making 10 pounds of cheese or 10,000 pounds of cheese.

543
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:56,360
And so this whole compliance thing is a big deal.

544
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:05,000
There are definitely efforts underway to circumvent the compliance, which we think is great.

545
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,120
We are big believers in the right of private contract.

546
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,320
It's guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, but we haven't been following the Bill of Rights

547
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,680
for a very, very long time.

548
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,320
And the right of private contract says essentially if you and I want to do business together,

549
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:25,120
it's none of the government's business if we want to do a private contract between each

550
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,120
other.

551
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,200
I want to buy from you or you want to sell to me or whatever.

552
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:37,280
But we have this big brother bureaucracy that points its nose and gets in the way of innovative

553
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,400
embryonic solutions to our food system.

554
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:45,560
And that then arbitrarily makes the price of alternative food more expensive than it

555
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,000
should be.

556
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:54,160
And these are all big issues that are all part of the equation and part of our context.

557
00:59:54,160 --> 01:00:03,000
And the way to make progress fastest on this front is for more and more and more people

558
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:12,480
to take it upon themselves to find integrity food, patronize it, and realize that we are

559
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,200
changing our landscape one bite at a time.

560
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:21,560
Whatever we have on the landscape, the health of our nation, the health of our farms, the

561
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:30,760
health of our soil, all of that today is a physical manifestation of the compounded decisions

562
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:35,320
that everybody's been making for the last X number of years.

563
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:41,800
Where we will be in the future, in 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, will also be a physical

564
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,920
manifestation of the decisions we make between now and then.

565
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:53,200
So at the end of the day, my question is, as a result of my decisions this week, have

566
01:00:53,200 --> 01:01:00,680
I helped, have I, you know, the old parable of the dog, which dog will survive, which

567
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,120
dog will thrive, will the one you feed?

568
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,520
So I'm asking, which dog are you feeding?

569
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:14,400
Are you feeding the Monsanto dog, the dog of obesity, health, and of ill health, erosion,

570
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,520
abuse, and violence toward the ecology, toward the biological world?

571
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:26,320
Or are you feeding the dog toward wellness, resilience, forgiveness, and healing?

572
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:31,000
And 20 years down the road, we'll know which dog we fed.

573
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,720
Yes, yes we will.

574
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,600
It's interesting, I just found a quote the other day, Winston Churchill actually said,

575
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,680
healthy citizens are the greatest asset any country can have.

576
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:48,680
Now following this most recent election process that we've had, I think it's clearer now than

577
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,880
ever, and I'm not saying versus left or right, I'm just saying the entire process from beginning

578
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:58,080
to end, that we do need to vote with our dollar, we do need to vote with our individual voice,

579
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,680
because if we put all our faith into whoever they place at the top of the pyramid, which

580
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:09,100
should really be upside down anyway, then we're at their mercy, but if we actually start

581
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:13,160
making decisions and voting, like you said, with our feet, then we are going to change

582
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,160
this world.

583
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:15,160
Yeah, yeah.

584
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:22,280
Okay, now the other thing I wanted to just touch on is, obviously a lot of people listening

585
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,680
to this are going to be in some sort of urban or suburban area.

586
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,440
Now I looked into my homeowners association rules and I'm not allowed to have chickens

587
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:31,440
or anything.

588
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:37,920
I'm hoping that that's going to change, but do you have any tips on someone that just

589
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:44,820
wants to take a corner of their garden and start a very, very small scale vegetable patch

590
01:02:44,820 --> 01:02:47,720
and or chicken coop type deal?

591
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:55,720
Well, yeah, again, I think the more people do this, you know, the old victory gardens

592
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:02,840
of World War II, the more people that do this, the more awareness there is, the more interest

593
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:03,840
there is.

594
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,320
It just, you know, it just moves the conversation forward and I would say the freedom forward

595
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,880
as more and more people come on board.

596
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:18,560
So yes, I'm a huge believer in doing something for yourself.

597
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:24,780
And if for no other reason than to just dabble your toe into the awesomeness and the mystery

598
01:03:24,780 --> 01:03:28,760
and the magic of life.

599
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:35,480
And I think for children, gardens are amazingly therapeutic, self-affirming.

600
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:44,120
I mean, the self-affirmation that comes from being able to plant a tomato seed and then,

601
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,360
you know, pull a tomato off and watch the juice run down your elbows as you eat that

602
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:55,120
tomato, that is such a more powerful and profound human affirmation than being the top points

603
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,120
getter on Angry Birds.

604
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,320
I think so too.

605
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:01,320
Yeah.

606
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:09,640
So I think they have a lot to offer and wonderfully, we now have a lot of infrastructure that enables

607
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,520
us to do this more efficiently and easier.

608
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:19,440
You know, we have these PVC pipes with, you know, side pockets in them where you pack

609
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,320
them full of compost, you pack your plant in there, you drip on top and the plants grow

610
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,240
out the sides of them, barrels like this.

611
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:35,200
We have, you know, the patio gardens, the stackable pots where you can, you know, stack

612
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,200
them up on a patio.

613
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,680
You know, beehives on your roof, the house roof.

614
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:47,200
Solariums, all these wonderful solarium kits, stick them on the south side of your house

615
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:55,000
and you can grow, you know, we eat, we eat mess with mix and lettuce, you know, year

616
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,080
round from our solarium on the side of our house.

617
01:04:58,080 --> 01:04:59,480
Our house was built in 1790.

618
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:05,240
So if we can do it on our house, you can certainly do it on yours.

619
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:18,960
And I think that those kinds of visceral participatory actions move our collective psyche and move

620
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:26,720
our collective understanding of this anchoring to our ecological umbilical.

621
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,520
I think it moves it to a place of humility rather than hubris.

622
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:36,120
And I think a place of humility is a place for all of us to start.

623
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:37,120
Absolutely.

624
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,000
Yeah, I think the appreciation when you open the door, the appreciation of where you are

625
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,000
is huge.

626
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:47,560
I live in central Florida and people get bogged down in their everyday lives.

627
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,280
And I'd say to my little boy, just zoom out for a second.

628
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,960
We live in the state where most people will save up to come visit for a week.

629
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:56,960
And this is your home.

630
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:57,960
This is where you live.

631
01:05:57,960 --> 01:05:58,960
Yeah.

632
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:00,960
So, you know, to appreciate what's around you.

633
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:05,480
I'm right next to what's called Ocala National Forest and the Florida Greenway.

634
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,480
So we have amazing nature running around.

635
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:13,560
In fact, if my homeowners does stay inflexible, I probably will transition because this is

636
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:15,600
a horse farm community originally.

637
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:21,600
So there is a lot of land and there are some mini farms that you can get for somewhat decent

638
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:22,600
amount.

639
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:23,600
But I think you're...

640
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,360
Yeah, well, those HOA things are just...

641
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,240
Oh, man, don't even get me started on those things.

642
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,800
They're just frustrating.

643
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:40,960
And I'll tell you, what they do, what they show is not only a profound, whatever, arrogance

644
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:49,720
toward our dependency on nature, but I think they indicate a condescending attitude toward

645
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,120
farming, actually.

646
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:57,880
And why is it that growing a rose bush is perfectly acceptable, but a tomato plant is

647
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:59,640
unacceptable?

648
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:03,440
The only difference is, you know, one's edible and one's just ornamental.

649
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:11,640
But one, smacks of garden shows, the other smacks of farmers.

650
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:19,440
And I think that as a culture, we have denigrated farming to the point where most farmers are

651
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:21,640
kind of apologetic about being farmers.

652
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,600
Well, you know, I guess I didn't have enough brains to be an engineer or a doctor, so,

653
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,760
you know, I just became a farmer.

654
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:38,240
And we've got this kind of universal mindset that dumb people farm and smart people don't.

655
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:49,200
And I think that that's a very, very dangerous place to be when the most precious assets

656
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:57,160
of any culture are air, soil, and water, and farmers are our first responders to air, soil,

657
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:03,600
and water, and we've condescended to them as if they don't really matter.

658
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:07,320
And that is a very dangerous place for civilization to be.

659
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:08,320
Yeah.

660
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,880
Well, especially as you said, I mean, they're not doctors, but they are.

661
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,540
We've come full circle and yeah, they provide the very medicine that we need.

662
01:08:15,540 --> 01:08:22,200
And I think that there's a phrase I love is in America and England and other Western countries

663
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,400
were malnourished and overfed, which sounds like a ridiculous statement, but it's true.

664
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:32,920
The calories that we consume are ungodly, yet the nutrition on the plate is almost non-existent.

665
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:33,920
That's right.

666
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:34,920
That's right.

667
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,920
It's empty calories with no nutrition to go with them.

668
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:38,920
That's correct.

669
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:39,920
Yeah.

670
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:43,320
Well, I would love, I honestly think there is a movement.

671
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:44,920
There's a couple of phrases I keep hearing now.

672
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,560
It's definitely a paradigm shift going on.

673
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,600
I think people are finally getting sick and tired of being sick and tired, being worked

674
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:58,080
into the ground, not sleeping properly, over-medicated and then the word that comes up a lot is when

675
01:08:58,080 --> 01:08:59,720
you use it yourself is that tribe.

676
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:06,200
And I'm going to have Sebastian Junger on the podcast next month and his book, Tribe

677
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:11,200
is Phenomenal and as a fireman, I've touched on this in a couple of other interviews, that's

678
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:12,600
what's missing in society.

679
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,120
And I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head.

680
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:19,840
And I think when you're connected to your community again and obviously through your

681
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:26,600
farms that you're recreating that tribe that people pride in, that's the fundamental soul

682
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,600
of the human species.

683
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:29,600
Yes.

684
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:30,600
Yes.

685
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,720
That will be an exciting program.

686
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:33,720
That'll be great.

687
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:34,720
Good for you.

688
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:35,720
Yeah.

689
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:36,720
I can't wait for that.

690
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:37,720
Well, this is an exciting program too though.

691
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,840
I mean, I was scrambling because it came together so quickly, but listening to you, we don't,

692
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:46,240
I mean, you said it yourself, this umpteen scientists that you could interview, but how

693
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:51,920
many farmers do you get to, you know, actual conscious farmers that truly grow the way

694
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:57,160
it's supposed to be grown and raise livestock the way it's supposed to be raised and educate

695
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:58,160
our generation.

696
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:03,800
I mean, you know, pretty much yours and mine and everyone younger than us of what it's

697
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,240
supposed to be like, because we were all told something different.

698
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:12,240
And I even, even growing up on my farm, it was, it was a hybrid of the old style and

699
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,200
the industrial style.

700
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:15,280
And my father was a vet.

701
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:20,600
So he, he was, you know, healing animals the whole time, but even he believed a lot of

702
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,000
the things that we were told.

703
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:26,960
So I think this, the shift really is, is going to happen, but I think people need to take

704
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,960
a look in the mirror and be brave, make a courageous decision and say, I'm going to,

705
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,200
you know, it's okay to change your mind.

706
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:34,720
It's okay to say, you know what?

707
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:35,720
You got me.

708
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:36,720
That you're congratulations.

709
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:37,720
You, you jute me.

710
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:41,480
And you know, I have these ailments now, but today is the day I turn around and say enough

711
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:42,480
is enough.

712
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:44,020
I'm investing in my health.

713
01:10:44,020 --> 01:10:48,920
And that example you use, I've heard you in other interviews, people say they can't

714
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:49,920
afford to eat healthy.

715
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,320
And then you point out all the material items that we have in our homes that we quote unquote

716
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:55,680
can't live without.

717
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,680
It's time to rethink about that.

718
01:10:58,680 --> 01:10:59,680
Right, right.

719
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:00,680
That's right.

720
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:02,680
There's plenty of money in the system.

721
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:07,840
What's not there is the conviction to live by value.

722
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:12,560
And that's the next, you know, that's the next hurdle.

723
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,160
Live by value and just do it.

724
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:17,160
So yeah, that's good.

725
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:18,160
Absolutely.

726
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:21,640
Okay, well I'm going to wrap it with a couple of short questions and then I will let you

727
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,800
go because I know you had an interview before this and I'm sure you probably got a bunch

728
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:26,880
of people racked up.

729
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,640
So obviously you've written several books yourself.

730
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:34,640
Folks, This Ain't Normal is the one that I've got coming to me.

731
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:40,920
As far as you as a reader, is there a book and or a movie that you recommend?

732
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:50,480
Well, the movie, I mean, Food Inc. is as powerful as they get.

733
01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:51,480
It's a little bit of a downer.

734
01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:55,560
As long as you come out of there realizing there are farmers like me, to go patronize

735
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:59,220
is good, but it's a little bit of a downer.

736
01:11:59,220 --> 01:12:00,560
We like Fresh better.

737
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:03,240
There's a documentary out named Fresh.

738
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:11,280
We're in that one too, but it's a much more upbeat, can-do type of movie.

739
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:21,160
Books, well, you know, I tend to gravitate toward farming books, but you know, it doesn't

740
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:25,240
get any better than Wendell Berry, The Unsettling of America.

741
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:34,080
You know, Wendell Berry is iconic in the sustainable ag movement and certainly articulates a lot

742
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:35,760
of the issues very well.

743
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,320
He's wonderful to read and profound.

744
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:46,880
So if somebody wants to just, I mean, besides my books, to look at these issues, Wendell

745
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:51,240
Berry's The Unsettling of America is probably as good as they get.

746
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,160
Okay, yeah, I have seen Fresh as well.

747
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,920
That was a very well made film too.

748
01:12:55,920 --> 01:13:00,880
And then one more question, when you need to laugh, when you've had a bad day or you

749
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,360
just had enough and you need to laugh, what do you do?

750
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:04,360
Where do you go?

751
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,800
Who do you hang out with?

752
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:11,000
Oh, well, I enjoy being at home.

753
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:16,160
I mean, I travel a lot, so when I want to get away, I get home.

754
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,520
So I enjoy being at home.

755
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:29,240
What I do for enjoyment is I read and my wife and I are right now are going through Downton

756
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:30,240
Abbey.

757
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:34,080
That's just a wonderful series.

758
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:40,320
We don't have a TV, so we get a DVD of a series if we like it.

759
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:44,280
But we have a lot of laughter on the farm.

760
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:49,360
We've got a lot of people here and there's a lot of people and they enjoy each other.

761
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:56,120
There's a lot of laughter just in the shenanigans of everyday ordinary activity.

762
01:13:56,120 --> 01:14:01,560
Last evening, I'll tell you this, yesterday afternoon, those people who know me and have

763
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:07,720
read after me know that I do not have great carpenter skills.

764
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:13,360
I get along, but it's kind of slap dab together.

765
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:22,240
And so yesterday afternoon, I was helping my 13-year-old grandson put together his duck

766
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,960
pen for the winter in one of the hoop houses.

767
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:29,280
And we've done this every year for like three or four years.

768
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:34,520
He's had his ducks and we just make like a 12-foot by 18-foot.

769
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:39,400
He's only got 40 ducks, so it's not like that has to be real big.

770
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:47,720
So we kind of make this little plastic bird netting pen inside the hoop house so the hens,

771
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,600
the chickens are outside and this little pen of ducks is inside.

772
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:55,360
So it's an enclosure within the enclosure.

773
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,640
And we've used the same material stuff every year.

774
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:03,840
So we're out there and for some reason last year the boards got misplaced.

775
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:04,840
Somebody put them away.

776
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:05,840
We didn't have them.

777
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:06,840
We had to start afresh.

778
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,000
I thought, oh, let's go make this thing a little bit simpler.

779
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:10,000
So we did.

780
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:15,600
And so we got done and Travis, he's 13, he just turned 13.

781
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,840
He's standing there, he's looking at this and he says, well, Grandpa, that's a pretty

782
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:19,840
good job.

783
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:23,840
It just looks like a two-year-old built.

784
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:29,200
I about laughed till I split.

785
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:30,200
So that's humor.

786
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,320
Yeah, the kids say some funny stuff.

787
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:38,840
I remember this is not quite the same genre, but I remember when my son was probably only

788
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:46,560
five and he came out of the shower holding his manhood and looks at me and goes, Daddy,

789
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:48,640
look, it's almost as big as yours now.

790
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:51,200
I said, thanks.

791
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:52,200
Thanks a lot, Ty.

792
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,960
But yeah, that keeps me laughing every day too.

793
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:57,760
I think that's another thing that we're missing.

794
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,640
We should be laughing a lot more.

795
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:01,760
Oh, very good.

796
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,920
All right.

797
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,280
So just to finish up then, where can people find you just before we hang up so they know

798
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:09,280
where to look?

799
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:13,000
Yeah, Polyface Farms is our website.

800
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:17,800
That's all one word, P-O-L-Y-F-A-C-E Farms.

801
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:22,920
If you get Poly about P-O-L-Y-F in there, it will pop right up.

802
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:23,920
It's a website.

803
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:24,920
We have all sorts of links.

804
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:33,400
We have resources, lots of information there, places where I'll be speaking, all those kinds

805
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:34,400
of things.

806
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:35,400
We have a gift shop.

807
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:42,720
We have our shirt that says, you know, grass fed or lunatic farmer or whatever.

808
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:44,560
We have that as well.

809
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:46,880
So yeah, check that out.

810
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,960
Lots of information there and that's polyfacefarms.com.

811
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:50,960
Fantastic.

812
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:51,960
All right.

813
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,520
Well, thank you so much for talking to us today.

814
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,840
I'm sure that there's a huge amount of people out there that are going to have their minds

815
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:00,080
blown by this talk.

816
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,740
And I would love if it's okay with you in the future down the line sometime to come

817
01:17:03,740 --> 01:17:08,360
up to the farm and actually maybe shoot an interview on video, follow up.

818
01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:09,360
Absolutely.

819
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:10,360
We'd love to have you.

820
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:11,360
Fantastic.

821
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:12,360
All right.

822
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:13,360
Well, thank you so much, Joel.

823
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:14,360
You have a great day.

824
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:15,360
You too.

825
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:16,360
Thank you.

826
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:17,360
Thank you.

827
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:38,440
We'll be right back.