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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.

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Well, since then, I have actually been using my products and I've had incredible success.

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There was initial blood work that was extremely detailed and based on that, they offered supplementation.

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So I began taking DHEA, BPC157 for inflammation based on the fact that I've been a stump man and martial artist and a firefighter my whole life, lots of aches and pains,

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Dihexa to help cognition after multiple punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later, they did a detailed blood work again and I was actually able to taper off two of the peptides because my body had responded so well to just one of them that it was optimized at that point.

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So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense range of supplementation that they offer, whether it's male health, female health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, which I would argue is needed by a lot of the fire service,

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or whether it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of this company is an altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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which is putting veterans and first responders through some of their protocols free of charge.

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Now Transcend are also offering you the audience 10% off their protocols and you can find that on JamesGearing.com under the products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 808 with the founder Ernie Colling or go to TranscendCompany.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter, EMT and psychedelic journeyman, Michael Boomin.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Michael's early life, his journey into the fire service, working Burning Man, his own powerful mental health story,

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the healing elements of psychedelic assisted therapy, empty nest syndrome and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Michael Boomin. Enjoy.

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Well, Michael, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time to come on the Behind the Shield podcast.

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We did the recording a few weeks ago.

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There's a really important and powerful reason why we're recording today.

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So firstly, I want to welcome you. And secondly, I'd love to kind of break the ice with your thoughts on that.

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Yeah, James, thanks for having me back and giving me another shot at this.

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And as you and I have discussed, the reason for the first one is, is I was, man, I was in this incredibly dark place.

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We had just taken our first, our oldest to college the day prior to us leaving to take her to San Diego.

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Our 16 year old had flown out to Japan for her study abroad here.

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And God, it impacted me much, much more powerfully, deeply than I expected.

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And it really kind of as I've kind of worked through this and with the guidance and help of some really, really good friends,

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really got it uncovered some of the history that it brought out in me and some of my own childhood stuff and some other things that

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I was in such a dark place that as I shared with you, I barely remember the podcast.

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Things were it was almost like a like a bad on a body experience.

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So, yeah, thanks again for let me take another crack at this in a more conscious state.

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No, absolutely. And we're going to get into all things, you know, obviously early life and then, you know, first respond to mental health.

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But while we're on the subject, because we didn't talk about this last time, I think it's really important that empty nest element.

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I'm 50 years old now. My son is 17. He's already been accepted to a college.

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We're just going to make sure that obviously the financial side matches up, but chomping at the bit to be off on his own adventure.

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And and my my my bonus boy, my stepson, he's local, but he's 23.

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He moved out a few years ago now. But the thought of pouring yourself into a child or into children and really being a diligent parent.

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And then one day they just walk out the door.

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This is another chapter that I'm going to be faced with very, very soon.

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So I'd love to kind of unpack that a little bit more, because it's not something you hear people talk about, especially not as a, you know,

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from a kind of emotional mental health standpoint. But I can see how jarring it must be.

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Yeah. And it's and taking nothing away from the impact on moms.

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I think you hear more of it from the mom perspective.

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And I think it's somewhat related to the way our society is.

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But, yeah, we were and remain super involved, very close with our children,

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thankful for the relationships that we have with all of them.

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And it shows with both of them off on their own adventures and they're crushing it.

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They immediately want to share that with us like they're it's not an obligation.

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They don't feel like, oh, whatever, we don't have to try to get their attention or ask for updates.

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That's their natural extension to want to do that.

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And I think that's I think you'll probably find the same.

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And there's a lot of relief that comes from that.

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But, yeah, it's it's I wasn't prepared for it.

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I don't think it's something you can be other than knowing that this is coming.

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And the impact, again, that I had and went through and still go through was much more powerful than expected.

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And then it's because we bring everything with them.

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It's one, it's important.

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This is all part of the process. Right.

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I mean, if you think about just the numbers, 90 percent of our time we spend with our children is until they leave for college.

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Right. You're going to know your children more as adults than as children.

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But it's the if I could turn it more to any suggestions or tips, one is we just be present to it,

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allow those feelings and emotions to come in and feel them.

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And I remember sitting there, we were in San Diego and it was I think I'd probably just had a little crying jag in the shower.

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My wife's like, oh, my God, are you going to make it?

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And I said, you know, I got to be honest, honey.

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I said, I'm I'm so thankful that I get to feel this like what a beautiful part of parenting to have this emotional response to your child moving on.

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And the demarcation line for me was super like almost like a Hollywood moment where she walked away, we dropped her off.

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And and that's like a childhood that is ended in her life is truly as an adult has begun.

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And and to be present to that.

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And and I give all credit to all the work I've done with my psychedelic medicine groups, the support I have of my friends,

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which I think it was a council of men and that ability to be present and not like how I used to be where you didn't feel anything.

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Everything was pushed aside, everything was pushed down.

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And then it would manifest and bubble out days later, generally not in a great way.

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Right. And and to be able to feel all of these emotions in real time is a gift.

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And it's but it's still, dude, it's still hard, man.

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I had a model on the show, Doris Mouse, who's from Holland, and she had a kind of addiction story and ended up going, you know,

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finding sobriety from alcohol specifically.

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And it was really interesting because it was such an obvious perspective.

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But at the same time, it it you know, it it's not obvious to most of us.

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And she was like the most beautiful thing about sobriety is you're forced to feel everything.

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And I was like, that's that's that's perfect.

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You know, you feel the good.

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But obviously, when the bad comes, you feel it to the point where you're like, I need to deal with this.

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Whereas when we dampen it with opioids or alcohol or distraction or overtime at the firehouse,

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we're you know, we're sticking it back in the hole and throwing more dirt in it.

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So is it fun? Is it comfortable?

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Absolutely not. But is it really essential to you growing and healing?

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Absolutely. Well, and it showed really the progress made.

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And I remember talking with my friends because they were all aware this was coming.

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It's something that I've been, you know, discussing with them and having trepidation towards knowing that this is a big thing that was coming.

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And I just remember thinking, man, I'm doing a really good job of working through this.

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Like I'm not I was additive to everyone's experience in San Diego,

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additive to everyone's experience with Ella heading off to Japan where the old me,

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the less healed, you know, not open, vulnerable, whatever version of me would have taken away from that.

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And my my way of kind of dealing thing was was more with anger.

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Like that's how I dealt with depression. It gave me that sense.

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And as I've learned after the fact, that's what we tend to do because it gives us that sense of power and control.

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And I wasn't any of those things, man. And it was it was really nice to be present and be calm with it and allowing things to happen

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and not struggling with my own weight of of just not knowing how to deal with things appropriately.

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So, yeah, I'm incredibly thankful that I have the experience and continue to have the experience I have.

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Like it's as they're thriving in their respective environments.

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Remember, the only sadness that I really feel is for myself. Right.

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Like I don't have my kids with me that I want to have with me, and it's my own reaction to that.

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Not and thankfully, they're doing great.

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If they were having a negative experience, that would be a different set of things to work through.

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But they're literally crushing it, man, and just thriving.

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So, yeah, thanks for thanks for bringing that up.

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That's an important thing to and I'll be there for you when you go through it, dude, because it's it's it's a thing.

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Absolutely. I'm dreading it.

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Again, like you said, it's an opportunity to cut the apron strings and let him kind of find his wings, but also,

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you know, simultaneously let him know that if it all explodes in his face that he can come back.

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There's no shame. There's none of this.

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You know, when they're 18, I slam the door behind them.

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Bullshit that you hear some some quotes men say.

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I think that's absolute bullshit. You should always be there for your kids.

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Hundred percent. I tell my kids three things. You're loved, you're enough and I'll always come for you.

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And that means not only that I'll come and get you, but you always have a place.

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And I agree with you. It's total bullshit to act this stiff up.

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I've had that experience where I was on my own and had nowhere to go.

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And it fucking sucks, man. Like, that's not what you want to have.

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It's a rough world out there.

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You know, go out and do things, but know that you have someone has your six. That's huge.

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So I'm with you on that. Absolutely. Well, speaking of that, then let's get to the beginning of your timeline.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did.

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How many siblings? I was born in Nebraska, moved to North Dakota early.

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I was maybe six months, something like that. Clearly don't remember it.

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I grew up in North Dakota, punched out of there three days out of high school, went back for some college, ended up in the Virgin Islands, which was huge.

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Changed everything in my world. Mom and dad have I have two older siblings, a younger sibling dynamic house.

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I mean, childhood wasn't great. I think it's part of how I ended up as the first responder as we've learned in our medicine groups.

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Turns out it all comes from childhood. We all seem to.

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I think our dads all could have been friends at one point.

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I know your situation, by the way, having heard your story and I know your situation is different than that.

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So I'm not in any way lumping you into that. Oh, no.

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And trust me, you know, as I've unpacked, you know, mine, there are elements there, too.

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And in fact, even in the first book, you know, I mean, four years old, almost dying in a house fire.

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Yeah, you had a fucking house fire, dude. That's exactly.

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I remember listening. We're going to talk about your book, by the way, because it's it's it's interesting how impactful your

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writings are having in my world. And there's no coincidences, as we well know.

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But I remember reading listening to that with my daughter.

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And it really sparked an interesting conversation with her.

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And so, yeah, that's yeah, that's a big one.

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What about sports and exercise? What were you playing school age?

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I was a hockey player. That was my main sport.

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Played that actually all the way to living here in Tahoe until time has just gotten too much with kids and snowboarding and other things.

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Played football up through high school to I think sophomore year. Played baseball.

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I was a catcher. I was a goalie in high school or in hockey and a catcher in baseball.

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And you can make whatever fetish jokes you deem appropriate with masks and whatever.

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But those are the three that I did. We didn't have you know, Jiu Jitsu wasn't around back then.

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They had wrestling. I think had I not been a hockey player, I probably would have been a wrestler.

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That made sense to me, though the cutting weight part didn't look rad.

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Absolutely not. I had the goalkeeper who got his throat cut in a hockey game on the show.

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Clint Blanken was last name. I don't know why it's fallen on my head.

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I remember seeing that. And he thank God they had good guys on the bench to, you know, tamponade that cut.

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Yeah, I mean, his mental health story is so powerful, though.

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Dude, I got to go back and listen to that. Thanks for letting me know.

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That's one I'd like to always wondered.

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I thought it's so interesting that I have thought about that probably because I play or played and didn't.

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I wore neck protection, a dangler back in the day because we didn't have goalie helmets.

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And then I didn't. I remember that for a while there, people were kind of like a neck thing.

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But yeah, and surprise that that just happened to it's a fairly recent, I think another I think someone may have

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been a fatality around that.

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It was in England. It was a Canadian or American team, but they were playing in the UK.

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Yeah, and they died on the ice, I think.

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Yeah, that's yeah. So I'll go back. I'd like to hear his story and hear how that how that laid out for him.

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Absolutely. I know it's Clinton and last name is something Chuck, but I'm just my brain is just not pulling out.

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So hopefully by the time we're done recording, I'll pull the actual name out.

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Well, you're right. It's the early stages of a hurricane. I think we can give you a little bit of slack.

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Yeah, there is one impending. My house is completely clear of anything outside now and sandbags everywhere.

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The show must go on though, as Freddie says.

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All right. Well, then what about career aspirations?

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What were you dreaming of becoming while you were in school?

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Oh, that's so funny. One, I had no idea.

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I was without guidance, forced really to figure everything out. And of course, none of that goes right the first half a dozen times.

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Right. For a while there, I wanted to be a lawyer.

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And I remember my college professors, those that were in the know, my economics professor was a practicing attorney.

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My business law professor was in charge of all the attorneys in the Air Force when he was in and then was the administrator for the state supreme court.

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And both of them were like, dude, you're so not a lawyer. Like, they all said the same thing. You need to go into business.

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You'll have lawyers. It would be it's just not a good fit for you.

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And so that's what I thought I would do. And then the Virgin Islands kind of changed that.

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And then I ended up working at law firms when I came back, randomly doing investigations for Vale Resorts and ended up in the entrepreneurial space, which I kind of always was anyway.

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I just didn't really have the vocabulary for it or the understanding and then started my own company in about circa 2004 and continue through the growth and iteration of that in the same financial space.

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So I ended up as an entrepreneur, which is exactly where I should be.

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When you reflect back now, and this is with the 2024 lens and all the journeys and other things that you found along the way to go through your emotional healing,

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what were the elements of your early life that were contributing to some of the struggles you had later in life?

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Oh, I mean, the amount of violence both in the home and just in the overall environment was probably the biggest.

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And then that feeling of I'm just on my own, man, like it's on me to figure out whatever, like very, very early on recognizing that.

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And that now it's it's funny. Again, no coincidence is so funny. It's not the word.

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We have ceremony coming up on November 1st and 2nd. And part of what that will be is discussing how it serves you for a while.

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And then it gets to a point where it doesn't. And a lot of the remnants of that, those elements of childhood and early stages aren't serving me anymore and need to go.

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And so as my good friend, Andy's pointed out, he goes, hey, dude, kind of the vision I have of you is you take a machete to the jungle and chopped everything down.

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And all you have left is this wall. And so let's just get to work on that.

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So, yeah, it's I know very clearly that's what those things still remain and they can go.

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I'd like to put those things down. Beautiful.

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Well, talk to me about where you were prior to the Virgin Islands and why that was so pivotal for you on your journey.

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Well, it was in North Dakota. And what was pivotal about it, of course, is just the manner in which I was brought up.

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And of course, there's good and bad to all of it. Right. And I remember just talking with my son about childhood stuff.

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They have some idea because I'm fairly open about my work with psychedelics, my healing, one of the struggles I've had.

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I don't get into a lot of specifics with them. Right.

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There's just certain things that that level of detail is not necessary.

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And he asked, hey, daddy, what what happened to you in childhood?

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And I said, well, you know, but maybe we'll get to that at some point.

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I said, but here's the most important thing is if any of that was different, I wouldn't be your dad.

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And I wouldn't I wouldn't trade one for the other.

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So, yeah, I kind of wandered from your question, but North Dakota, then it was the Virgin Islands, Virgin Islands ended up in Colorado.

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And then we've been from Colorado to Costa Rica, Costa Rica to Tahoe.

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But what took you to Virgin Islands? What made you go there specifically?

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Oh, I had a friend that said, hey, dude, we should we should transfer to the University of the Virgin Islands.

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And you need to understand at this point, I haven't seen the ocean.

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Right. Because I live literally 72 miles due east of the center of the North American continent.

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And I'm like, dude, that sounds rad. Where are they?

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And he goes, oh, they're 11, 1200 miles south, southeast of Miami, blah, blah, blah.

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I'm like, cool, let's do that. Transfer to the University of the Virgin Islands lasted about three days and realize there's no way I'm going to go to college in the tropical in the tropics.

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I'm I'm going to punch out and and probably just enjoy this experience.

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I expected that to last about six months, turn into about three years with a little little side jaunt in the midst of all that.

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But, yeah, I ended up there from that reason.

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And it was interesting, the attorney I was working for at the time, great guy,

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he goes, hey, man, if I was your age, I'd go with you.

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And in fact, he goes, you have to go or I'm going to just probably fire you.

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And he goes, and everything in your life will be different.

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That will forever change the trajectory of your life.

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And he was a hundred. He was unbelievably accurate in that in that explanation.

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And it's it's it was such a big move that I can literally see how everything for my life changed from that point.

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That was a it was a tremendous move.

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There's a pivotal moment in my life where I was a lifeguard, kind of not going anywhere just because ironically the I talk about even in the book.

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And I had these this medical done while I was still a schoolboy.

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And they told me I was colorblind and I could never be a firefighter and all these things.

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So I'm just lost now. All the things that I wanted to do were taken off the table.

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And but one of these lifeguards had done an exchange program with a summer camp in America.

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And so I'm like, that sounds great. So I just remember being in the community colleges library and just filled in the paperwork that filling that paperwork was pivotal for so much in my life.

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So it's amazing how when you find yourself one of those and you're like, should I should I shouldn't I just just do it?

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And obviously, if it's you know, there's a huge consequence, don't.

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But otherwise, if you're teetering, do it because you just don't know where it's going to take you 100 percent.

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We teach our kids that to like, you know, be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid, as they say.

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And actually, one of our family core values is you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly bear.

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And and we actually I share that origin story with us because I met my wife on the beach at the dive shop that I worked at as a school instructor

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that Tuesday morning when she was she she was on island as doing a travel nursing contract.

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And we actually took them back a few years ago for spring break and took them all scuba diving at the beach on the reef that I taught at that we met and really kind of hit it home.

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Like, listen, the randomness of you is we had to meet on that particular morning that I was out of the water as an instructor because I had an ear infection on this particular beach on this particular Caribbean island.

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I'm from North Dakota. She's from Missouri. The randomness of the two of us meeting on that Tuesday morning and we began dating the day that we met and have been together ever since.

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Without that chance of all chance meetings, there is no you.

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And then and to reiterate that with them standing on that Caribbean beach is that was pretty cool to kind of close that family origin story on that.

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It was just cool. So yeah, man, those if you have a shot and we and we teach our kids this like, take it.

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The answer is yes. Like, keep moving forward.

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Absolutely. As we talked before, I spent 15 months in Japan.

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So I know your daughter is going to probably love it there.

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She's having and I'm not overstating this.

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She's literally the happiest she's ever been.

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And Jen and I, that's my wife, Jen and I are like, you know, man, she might not come home.

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And we're like, ah, that's cool.

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Like that's she's Ella's always I mean, that kid is so impressive what she's had to work through by the age of 16.

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Some of the things that she's been through, man, other people, they sit in a room and cry forever.

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I mean, this kid's got grit and resilience.

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And she set it all up herself and it was almost an 18 month process through the rotary.

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And she came to us with the idea.

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First, she went to Jen because she knew Jen would say first and back then my hyper vigilance was still pretty much in full effect.

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And I was like, oh, boy, I don't know if that's going to work.

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Ended up. Then we said, you know what? Sounds great.

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You have to do everything right. Like, I'm not going to take this on as my own personal project.

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And she did it, man. She set it all up. And and the rotary does a great job.

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Super, super thorough, which you want to see as a parent.

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Right. Like, this shouldn't be easy. We better know what's up.

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I've actually talked to Ella. I said, I think there's a book in here for you.

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And she's journaling kind of with that sort of potential outcome of, you know, the I said, honey,

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you've done the most epic and extreme adventure of anyone in our family.

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You're 16, living on a different continent in a different country that you don't speak the language.

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And she's got a flair for languages. So she's already doing speeches to hundreds of people in Japanese.

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I mean, the kids amazing. And I think that she's got a book to come out of it.

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I mean, what a small group of people that have one done a year abroad as a high school student,

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done it as a female and then done it in Japan.

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I'm like, there's six, seven billion people alive, let alone all that have passed prior.

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How many people would fit in the room that would that would meet that criteria?

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So, yeah, man, she may have to she may come asking you, what do you do to write a book?

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I'd be happy to help. Which city is she in?

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She's in Shibata. And I may be mispronouncing that, as you know, the way the island sits,

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Tokyo would be down here, if you can see it.

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She's up here and all this where all the ski resorts are.

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So Shibata is what I think I'm saying.

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And just having she's like, oh, my God, everybody here is kind.

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And that was an issue that she had here in Tahoe was, you know, just a bit of bullying.

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And not more than a bit.

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And she really had struggles with that.

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And she was, wow, it's and she always goes, daddy, I wonder if I don't have a little PTSD,

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because I'm I'm getting used to having my guard down that people aren't going to make fun of me

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or tease me or be mean, like everybody here is kind.

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And it's it's almost like she's beginning to see herself as her mother and I see her.

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And as a parent, it's like.

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That's what you want, right?

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Absolutely. I think that I've I've mentioned this before, and I can never remember the actual

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the actual quote, but Mark Twain talks about the enemy of prejudice is traveling.

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And I'm totally paraphrasing. It's way more articulate than that.

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But it's so true. You know, you experience different cultures.

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And if everyone traveled, there wouldn't be as many bullies in the world for a star

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because that that kind of low self-esteem would be gone.

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And people would realize that that, you know, humanity is a beautiful thing.

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And we'd stop renaming French fries because we're, you know,

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worried about them not supporting us in wars and all this ridiculous shit that happens in this country.

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But, yeah, I mean, the Japanese, there's pros and cons, obviously.

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But they are amazing people. I love absolutely loved that.

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I didn't like the fact that it was just so populated, of course, you know, where Osaka is a kind of a concrete jungle,

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just because I think if I'm not mistaken, it was bombed quite a lot in the war.

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But some of the most beautiful souls, amazing, just so kind, so hospitable.

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And then even if you look at the way I saw a video of school, like schools,

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I don't know if it's a certain grade of school in Japan, they don't have a janitor.

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The kids clean the school, they clean their own classroom, you know what I mean?

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So what a beautiful concept that is.

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Yeah. You look at the health care, some other, you know, I mean, they have so many things that they do so, so well.

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Well, and their attention to doing things correctly, like follow through what you're doing, pride of ownership.

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But ultimately, the thing that Ella keeps coming back to and I'll focus on is that they're kind, first and foremost.

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They're well mannered, but they're kind.

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They are such a much more, and you're spot on, that's actually been our family's thing, if you will, is that we travel extensively.

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I think the kids have been to 30 some countries or 30 countries at this point. We spent a good portion,

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a couple of years before we landed in Tahoe traveling. And it is the great equalizer.

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Like, and we point that out to the kids. One, we've, we've taught our kids to move first.

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So introduce yourself to people, be the one that moves, you be certain.

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It's almost, it was incredibly rare that anybody responds negatively to you moving first with kindness and talking to them, right?

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And, and it's rare. And also just how everybody's the same.

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Like, no matter what we've had for rickshaws, taxis, water taxis, horseback, doesn't matter,

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whomever we're interfacing with, I go, what do they all talk about? They're like their kids.

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I go, exactly. Everybody talks about their kids.

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Like every, no matter color, gender, socioeconomic, whatever part of the world that you've been, that we've been to,

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everybody really, when you get down to people, the person, they're all the same, you know?

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And I, and I heard this quote and I forget who said it.

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And we've been discussing this of late is, is wars are fought by young men who don't know each other on behalf of old guys that do.

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And, and as we, and Rotary, as I'm blending here, James, the reason for Rotary's study abroad program is to actually

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take away the chance of war to allow people to get to know each other more.

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Now those kids in rural Shibata, Japan are going to think of Americans, at least in some way, as my daughter and she of them or she of they.

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And I think that's, to your point, what makes the difference.

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You know, it's we have people in our family that speak of other cultures, other countries in less than healthy ways.

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And it's like, hey, have you been out of the country? Oh, you haven't.

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OK, you've never met any of those people, because I can tell you, I've been to that country or I've been to that area.

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And I can tell you, let me tell you the stories I've had of how when we traveled Europe with our four young kids, how many people's kitchens that I ended up in as a result of my kids.

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Neither of us spoke the other's language.

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And it was one of the brand that most single serving friend moments that you have.

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And you know it from from traveling these you're open to those adventures.

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So, yeah, man, sorry, I kind of, again, wandered off your point.

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But no, you know, I love about that.

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I've never thought of it that way, that every one of us is a diplomat for another country.

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And someone said to me recently, they said, you've got to remember that America is the advert for democracy to other countries.

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So if you look at some of our bad statistics, you know, our obesity epidemic, education, where we stand, the number of incarcerated people, it's all doom and gloom.

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And if your only perspective of the United States is Joe Biden or Donald Trump, then no wonder you fucking don't want to come here.

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You know what I mean? But it's the real people, it's the Americans that travel to other countries and people see that we are nice people as well.

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You know, and then that kind of really solidifies that humanity.

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Well, and you raise the point of the responsibility then that comes with that.

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When you think of it larger than you and we do, by the way, when we travel for those that don't.

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And you see the ugly American in action.

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And it's and then you see the results of that and overcoming it.

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And we much prefer to travel to places that don't have cruise ships, say.

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And that's an extreme example. But yeah, there's people that lose that understanding or don't recognize it.

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And it comes down to parenting, I suspect, that you do represent something larger than yourself and act accordingly.

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Even if it's not your country, you do represent your family.

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And so how you act reflects on others. You are not, you know, an individual in that sense.

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You're just taking it up to that macro level that we are, you know, all diplomats or ambassadors.

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And to Ella, there she's for some folks, she's some of the first one of the first Americans that they've probably known,

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like now are actually developing a relationship with and so and she's to her credit comments about that.

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You know, there's and she had an interesting encounter where some Japanese girls needed to have cursive,

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English cursive translated, and they couldn't read the cursive.

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And it was about the bombing of Hiroshima.

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And I just said, Ella, think of the depth of what is happening.

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That's just in a way almost mind boggling. Right.

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Like you've got here you are as an American study abroad student at their school and now your school for the time that you're there,

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helping them to translate English cursive about us dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

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I got you can't even I go, please journal about that because that there's so much there to unpack.

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You don't have to unpack it all now. But boy, what an example of bridging and overcoming.

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Right. I mean, I mean, there's there's a lot going on in in that sort of encounter.

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So, yeah, it's you'll find that we can find that example.

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And if you travel as a traveler versus a tourist and we've we've been pressed on that on our kids to be a traveler and experience

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where you are rather than try to make it be America. Right.

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If you take that approach, that's that's that grassroots diplomacy, man.

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Yeah, we could talk a long time on the value and benefits of travel,

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both to the places that you go and and and much like the volunteer paradox, what you get from it.

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I shared a few videos recently, and what's interesting is you would think that they were all from Hurricane Helene.

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And the last one, actually, I caught someone shared it on an American firefighter site,

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but they mislabeled it as Helene.

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And someone had actually commented like, dude, what are you doing?

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This is Dubai. And you see, I was looking at, you know, what is that on the back of the policeman's shirt?

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And it was someone rescuing a cat in this particular case.

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I just put it out a second ago. But this is the point.

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Doesn't matter if it's Dubai or Thailand or, you know, the UK or America, you know, wherever it is,

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it's the same people doing the same things, rescuing each other, rescuing animals,

384
00:35:59,620 --> 00:36:03,900
you know, the selflessness, the courage. And that is the humanity.

385
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:10,060
And so if we can kind of hone in back on that and then, like you said, get more people out there seeing the world.

386
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:15,060
And I get, of course, that finances are, you know, a limiting factor sometimes.

387
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:20,100
But the more we interact with other cultures and faiths and sexualities and all these things,

388
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:26,900
you dispel these two dimensional, you know, negative caricatures and you go, oh, you're like me.

389
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:31,220
You know, you like you said, ultimately, you want to see your kids grow up, you want to feed them,

390
00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:35,220
you want to put a rope over their head, you want to teach them to be kind and compassionate.

391
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:41,900
And then you in Afghanistan, you in Gaza, you in wherever are going to be a heartbroken dad

392
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:46,460
when your 18 year old walks out the door, just like we will be here in the US.

393
00:36:46,460 --> 00:36:49,700
Right. And it's a good segue into fatherhood, which is its topic.

394
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:56,020
And really, I think what you're driving at, James, if I may, is is all of that comes to parenting.

395
00:36:56,020 --> 00:37:00,420
And us as parents, it's our responsibility to show the way.

396
00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:04,100
And like you said, travel, yes, there's a financial obligation or burden to that.

397
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,900
And I and I certainly recognize that and taking nothing away from those that wish they could.

398
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:12,500
And circumstances don't allow taking taking that away.

399
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:17,060
And I remember talking with our kids when we first started traveling, we moved to Costa Rica.

400
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:24,100
Alex was nine, Ella was seven, Tristan was five, and Ava was three.

401
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:34,900
And we early on would have them navigate through airports, through bus terminals,

402
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:40,260
any sort of any any kind of transportation, not to make it hard for them.

403
00:37:40,260 --> 00:37:46,340
But what I what I kind of put forth to them was, you know, a lot of people don't travel when they're older

404
00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:50,340
out of fear of the transportation process.

405
00:37:50,340 --> 00:37:54,420
How do I get through an air? If you've not been to an airport before and you go and you're older,

406
00:37:54,420 --> 00:37:55,540
there's a lot happening, right?

407
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:56,500
That can be overwhelming.

408
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,460
And it becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy of fear.

409
00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:02,100
And so we'd always make them navigate to and fro.

410
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:03,300
You know, yes, you're going to get lost.

411
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:07,060
Congratulations to kinds of travelers, those that get lost and those that lie.

412
00:38:07,060 --> 00:38:07,860
So what happens?

413
00:38:07,860 --> 00:38:09,380
You can work the problem, right?

414
00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:10,420
And there's no one's going to die.

415
00:38:10,420 --> 00:38:11,380
Nothing's on fire.

416
00:38:11,380 --> 00:38:12,740
What do you do to get out of it?

417
00:38:12,740 --> 00:38:19,620
Like Ella, when when she was operating the tube in, I think we were in Paris.

418
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:20,980
Yeah, she was in Paris on that.

419
00:38:20,980 --> 00:38:23,060
And maybe the tube is in the tubes, probably London.

420
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:25,460
And she got on the wrong color.

421
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:27,460
Yeah, she got on the wrong colored loop.

422
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:31,140
And I knew that she had chosen yellow versus red or whatever the colors were.

423
00:38:31,140 --> 00:38:32,740
And so I knew that.

424
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:32,980
Right.

425
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:33,620
And I'm like, OK.

426
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:37,940
And I told Jen, I said, hey, she's got this on the wrong train, but let's play this out.

427
00:38:37,940 --> 00:38:43,540
And as we're riding and you can see that it's changing and I can see her getting like, oh,

428
00:38:43,540 --> 00:38:45,300
shit, like I can see it happening.

429
00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:51,220
She's all of I mean, at this point, she was probably close to nine.

430
00:38:51,220 --> 00:38:52,260
So still pretty young.

431
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:52,420
Right.

432
00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:53,380
And so she's working.

433
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:55,220
I can see it working it out in her head.

434
00:38:55,220 --> 00:38:59,380
And so we get to a point I go, hey, honey, everything OK.

435
00:38:59,380 --> 00:39:01,700
And she goes, I think we're on the wrong train.

436
00:39:01,700 --> 00:39:03,780
I said, OK, so what should we do?

437
00:39:04,580 --> 00:39:06,420
She goes, well, I need to see a map.

438
00:39:06,420 --> 00:39:08,900
I said, OK, well, let's where we're going to find one of those.

439
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:10,580
And she was like, well, let's get off at the next stop.

440
00:39:10,580 --> 00:39:11,620
I said, sounds great.

441
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:13,540
So we get off and we get the little map on the wall.

442
00:39:13,540 --> 00:39:15,940
And she's like, I said, OK, well, let's see where we are.

443
00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:16,660
Where should we OK?

444
00:39:16,660 --> 00:39:18,420
Well, what do we do to fix it?

445
00:39:18,420 --> 00:39:20,180
And she's like, we'd have to do this, that and the other.

446
00:39:20,180 --> 00:39:21,780
And I said, fantastic.

447
00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:23,060
That's traveling.

448
00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:25,860
That's departing the text where you're going to have these issues.

449
00:39:25,860 --> 00:39:26,580
Congratulations.

450
00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:27,700
You didn't panic.

451
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:28,020
Right.

452
00:39:28,020 --> 00:39:28,980
Nothing bad happened.

453
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:30,340
You just worked it out.

454
00:39:30,340 --> 00:39:34,180
And she still to this day remembers that it was a big, big.

455
00:39:34,180 --> 00:39:36,980
And that's a perfect example of one of those.

456
00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:40,580
But back to the point, I think it really does.

457
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:42,660
These are all learned behaviors from kids.

458
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:47,540
You have to learn to see people differently, to be an isolationist,

459
00:39:47,540 --> 00:39:51,380
to think that your nationality is better than somebody else's

460
00:39:51,380 --> 00:39:52,820
and not have that understanding.

461
00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:54,340
That all comes from how you're raised.

462
00:39:56,020 --> 00:39:56,520
100%.

463
00:39:57,140 --> 00:39:59,540
Well, I want to shift over to your journey

464
00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:01,220
into the first responder profession.

465
00:40:01,220 --> 00:40:04,100
So you talked about being an entrepreneur.

466
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:06,660
What took you into the journey of fire and EMS?

467
00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:10,820
Well, as it would be, like most big things and important things in my world,

468
00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:12,660
being on St. Thomas and the Virgin Islands,

469
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:16,900
I as a first as a dive master and then as an instructor,

470
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:22,820
back in the late mid to late 90s, and I was there from 97 to 2000,

471
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:25,540
further date myself here a little bit.

472
00:40:26,740 --> 00:40:30,900
We had Medic First Aid, which was their version of just first aid.

473
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:31,460
Right?

474
00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:34,500
Some CPR, the ratios, what they were then,

475
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:42,100
and some unbelievably basic first aid, wildly overnamed as Medic First Aid.

476
00:40:42,660 --> 00:40:46,900
And we were the second busiest beach in entirety of the Caribbean.

477
00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:49,700
So we had a ton of visitors through.

478
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:54,740
And we became the de facto EMS on the beach.

479
00:40:54,740 --> 00:40:57,860
And I was drawn to it.

480
00:40:57,860 --> 00:41:03,140
And I was fortunate there was a continental paramedic on island,

481
00:41:03,140 --> 00:41:05,780
and they would, of course, respond.

482
00:41:05,780 --> 00:41:08,740
And I kept being the person kind of in the midst of things.

483
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:11,220
And he was like, OK, dude, you're clearly getting into this.

484
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:12,820
Let me actually show you some stuff.

485
00:41:12,820 --> 00:41:15,140
And that really sparked my interest.

486
00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:17,940
And then I was only interested in the medical side.

487
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:21,540
Like I hadn't hit any thought of fighting fire and just kind of was like,

488
00:41:21,540 --> 00:41:22,180
I'm going to get my EMT.

489
00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:23,140
This sounds rad.

490
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:24,180
And off we go.

491
00:41:24,980 --> 00:41:25,940
Got back to the States.

492
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:27,940
9-11 happened.

493
00:41:27,940 --> 00:41:31,460
Then I started thinking about the fire service and went, well, that makes sense to me.

494
00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:35,700
And that's really 9-11 pushed me into the fire service.

495
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:40,900
And very clearly, it was that scene, one of many of these scenes where

496
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:45,140
they're watching the people run out and they're scared shitless.

497
00:41:45,140 --> 00:41:48,500
And you see the guys going in and they're not.

498
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:53,060
The people running out have an idea of where they're going to safety.

499
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:55,540
And the guys going in have a pretty good idea of where they're going to.

500
00:41:55,540 --> 00:42:00,740
And I remember very clearly going, man, I'd like to know if I have what it takes.

501
00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:02,260
Could I run in?

502
00:42:03,860 --> 00:42:05,620
And I had no sense of the brotherhood.

503
00:42:06,180 --> 00:42:10,900
I had no sense of the larger service component to it.

504
00:42:11,940 --> 00:42:14,900
I honestly just was like, I want to know if I could do it.

505
00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:17,700
Like it just was the second time in my life I'd seen something.

506
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:20,740
The first was the first time I watched the goaltender in hockey.

507
00:42:20,740 --> 00:42:22,180
And I went, that makes sense to me.

508
00:42:22,180 --> 00:42:22,980
And I want to do that.

509
00:42:22,980 --> 00:42:25,060
This was the second time that that happened to me.

510
00:42:25,060 --> 00:42:28,740
And so yeah, 9-11, 100% pushed me into the fire service.

511
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:33,540
So where did you actually find yourself as far as which region, which department?

512
00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:38,420
I was in Colorado, outside of Denver in a great little town called Evergreen.

513
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:43,940
And they had a really good volunteer department, top notch.

514
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:47,300
I want to say, and I might have this wrong, but it'll prove the point.

515
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:50,660
I think it was like the largest volunteer fire department west of the Mississippi.

516
00:42:50,660 --> 00:42:53,220
There was like a hundred and some members.

517
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:59,220
It was sort of an affluent area.

518
00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:05,220
And so the way, I forget how the bonds worked, the financing work.

519
00:43:05,220 --> 00:43:09,300
We had a lot of taxpayer based property tax support.

520
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:11,300
So we had literally the best of everything.

521
00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:14,100
Because of course, a lot of it wasn't being burnt up on salaries.

522
00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:19,220
We had amazing equipment, unbelievably solid training.

523
00:43:19,220 --> 00:43:24,740
And we caught really a pretty good number of fires for a volunteer department.

524
00:43:24,740 --> 00:43:31,540
A lot of, I think we ran six, seven, eight, 10,000 calls a year, something like that.

525
00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:33,140
I mean, a good quality.

526
00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:36,500
And I get my numbers from years past, but enough where it was.

527
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:38,980
And the medics were phenomenal.

528
00:43:38,980 --> 00:43:42,580
A lot of them were former DG medics, which was Denver general.

529
00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:44,980
And so they ran back in the gun and knife days.

530
00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:48,980
And they were exceptionally good teachers.

531
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:55,700
I didn't recognize that until later in my career, how fortunate I was to come under

532
00:43:55,700 --> 00:44:02,500
the tutelage of both some unbelievably solid career firefighters and then some

533
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:04,500
unbelievably experienced medics.

534
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:06,500
And we were fortunate.

535
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:09,700
We had in our department, the ability to take out as an EMT.

536
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:11,700
And I've always been an EMT.

537
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:18,820
And I've always been an EMT, take out a third ambulance as the EMT in command, if you will.

538
00:44:18,820 --> 00:44:24,340
So I think there were five of us on our department that went through the process to do that.

539
00:44:25,460 --> 00:44:29,940
And so I, yeah, man, sorry, I'm off again, but yeah, it started there.

540
00:44:31,540 --> 00:44:34,740
With that dynamic, you have such a high call load.

541
00:44:34,740 --> 00:44:37,300
You have an affluent neighborhood.

542
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:44,340
One of the criticisms I have of the overuse of a volunteer fire department is if it's in an

543
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:47,620
area where they should have a career fire department, they should be paying these men

544
00:44:47,620 --> 00:44:49,060
and women to actually be there.

545
00:44:49,060 --> 00:44:51,460
Was that a similar dynamic in that particular one?

546
00:44:52,180 --> 00:44:52,500
No.

547
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,260
And again, I didn't know any better.

548
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:54,500
Right.

549
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:56,420
So I was, I just got lucky now.

550
00:44:56,420 --> 00:44:58,340
I was in the right place, right time.

551
00:44:58,340 --> 00:45:02,500
We had a number and I'm going to blend these.

552
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:03,700
So there's no order of priority.

553
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:08,900
We just had a good number of career firefighters that were also volunteers.

554
00:45:09,620 --> 00:45:17,460
And so we had a very professional culture and you started, you had the 80 20, you had certain

555
00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:18,980
people that were always on calls.

556
00:45:18,980 --> 00:45:24,740
And I was fortunate because I was pretty manic about it and actually started my company in

557
00:45:24,740 --> 00:45:30,820
the firehouse back in the day when I ran a shit ton of calls and you could do that.

558
00:45:30,820 --> 00:45:33,780
And so we didn't have a drop off in service.

559
00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:37,460
We had an incredibly professional culture.

560
00:45:37,460 --> 00:45:39,300
We had a top notch training.

561
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:44,900
We were very, very good at what we did and the leadership, those that were,

562
00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:48,500
and there was a mix, right?

563
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:54,580
There were some folks in positions that in this, in any department, but we just had a core of very

564
00:45:54,580 --> 00:45:59,940
solid firefighters, firefighters, and that were someone you could look to and go,

565
00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:01,380
that's how that's done.

566
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:06,980
And they had that great leadership capacity of looking back and saying, but recognizing

567
00:46:06,980 --> 00:46:09,700
themselves in you and saying, okay, dude, you're into this.

568
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:12,580
Let's support that.

569
00:46:12,580 --> 00:46:15,540
And then the call load allowed you to get good at it.

570
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:17,380
We had good fires.

571
00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:18,340
We had commercial fires.

572
00:46:18,340 --> 00:46:20,100
We had a lot of structure fires.

573
00:46:20,660 --> 00:46:25,140
Thankfully, we had other people that love wildland because I mostly don't.

574
00:46:25,140 --> 00:46:29,540
And in mad respect to all the wildland people out there, that is double tough work.

575
00:46:29,540 --> 00:46:36,420
And it's not, I way preferred doing truck work than, and I'm not, dude, I was never built for

576
00:46:36,420 --> 00:46:36,980
wildland.

577
00:46:36,980 --> 00:46:40,020
So back to the, we didn't have that in our department.

578
00:46:40,020 --> 00:46:41,060
We did not at all.

579
00:46:41,060 --> 00:46:43,460
We're community was exceptionally well supported.

580
00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:49,380
The equipment was top notch equipment, both personal and rigs.

581
00:46:49,380 --> 00:46:51,540
And we had 110 foot aerial truck.

582
00:46:51,540 --> 00:46:53,460
That was everything was top notch.

583
00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:55,700
That was everything was top of the line.

584
00:46:56,740 --> 00:47:03,860
And we had some incredibly dedicated and experienced firefighters that brought those

585
00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:05,060
and are coming up.

586
00:47:05,060 --> 00:47:06,740
And there was a, there was a track for you.

587
00:47:06,740 --> 00:47:09,460
If you were into it, you got tapped on the fires.

588
00:47:09,940 --> 00:47:11,620
And that was, yeah, man, sorry.

589
00:47:11,620 --> 00:47:15,220
I got to go on and on about what that kind of leadership looked like.

590
00:47:15,220 --> 00:47:15,780
Yeah.

591
00:47:15,780 --> 00:47:18,100
But that was, that was a high level of standards.

592
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,780
I'm talking about should those men and women have been paid by their community?

593
00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:27,220
Because I feel like the Northeast, for example, there are volunteer fire departments in

594
00:47:27,220 --> 00:47:29,300
densely populated suburban neighborhoods.

595
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:32,260
And I think at that point, you've just got your fucking priorities wrong and you should

596
00:47:32,260 --> 00:47:34,100
be paying for a career.

597
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:34,980
Oh, I'm sorry.

598
00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:36,740
I completely misunderstood your question.

599
00:47:36,740 --> 00:47:38,180
No, but it was a good thing to hear though.

600
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:39,300
Yeah.

601
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:43,380
I, and I think, I don't know, I don't have an answer because it never came up because

602
00:47:43,380 --> 00:47:45,380
the service was well provided.

603
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:49,300
And again, the culture was we were so thankful that we had this.

604
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:53,700
I couldn't have been more stoked to be, and I learned that later as it went along.

605
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:59,220
First, I got into it for the medical and did my OEC first with a local search and rescue

606
00:47:59,220 --> 00:47:59,540
team.

607
00:48:00,500 --> 00:48:02,420
I did my fire academy.

608
00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:04,020
It took a year.

609
00:48:04,740 --> 00:48:08,020
At the same time, I did my first responders so I could be on the rescue squad.

610
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:10,420
I also did my EMT all in the same year.

611
00:48:10,980 --> 00:48:15,540
And so I was basically a professional full time, you know, volunteer firefighter and

612
00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:16,020
training.

613
00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:18,420
And it never, it never came up.

614
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:22,660
And I think people resist it because they were so well served.

615
00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:24,420
And I'll give you an example.

616
00:48:24,420 --> 00:48:30,340
So I live now in an Olympic Valley, California resort here is Palisades Tahoe.

617
00:48:30,740 --> 00:48:33,140
And I would love to volunteer in my community.

618
00:48:33,460 --> 00:48:35,380
There is no volunteer opportunity.

619
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:40,100
I did some volunteer work for a local nonprofit, had a call.

620
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:42,420
They came in, did my thing.

621
00:48:42,420 --> 00:48:44,180
And the guy's like, okay, dude, what's your deal?

622
00:48:44,180 --> 00:48:46,340
And I explained to him, he goes, hey, man, we're hiring.

623
00:48:46,340 --> 00:48:48,420
And I'm like, I don't want to be paid.

624
00:48:48,420 --> 00:48:50,740
Like, are there any volunteer spots?

625
00:48:50,740 --> 00:48:55,380
It's like there aren't any in the Tahoe basin, any place for me to volunteer.

626
00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:59,620
And I like nothing better than giving back my skill set to my community.

627
00:48:59,620 --> 00:49:03,860
It comes with, you know, it's kind of tough to see people, you know, as patients, you

628
00:49:03,860 --> 00:49:06,580
know, but there isn't that.

629
00:49:06,580 --> 00:49:12,740
And so we, it just didn't come up for us, man, because everybody enjoys it.

630
00:49:12,740 --> 00:49:15,300
And it was, it was a competitive assignment.

631
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:16,820
There was more people applying.

632
00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:20,660
I don't know if that's the case now, because I know numbers are across, are down across

633
00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:23,780
the country, both for paid and certainly for volunteer.

634
00:49:23,780 --> 00:49:25,780
But we didn't have that.

635
00:49:25,780 --> 00:49:29,780
But you're like Kentland 33 pops to mind when you mentioned that.

636
00:49:29,780 --> 00:49:34,820
Now, I don't know if they would want to be paid, if that would take away some of their

637
00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:36,820
roles or not, I don't know.

638
00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:40,820
Yeah, I mean, I wish I could volunteer here.

639
00:49:40,820 --> 00:49:42,820
I'd like nothing better.

640
00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:45,220
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what would happen though.

641
00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:50,900
If you, you know, made most of the places that should be career, career, and then opened

642
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,820
up volunteer opportunities when you just need more people, like for example, this hurricane

643
00:49:54,820 --> 00:49:58,740
that's coming here, I'd love to be part of a team and like, all right, you were a firefighter

644
00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:00,980
and a medic, we're going to use you now.

645
00:50:00,980 --> 00:50:06,020
But there's a lot of red tape, you know, between you and I did volunteer for this county for

646
00:50:06,020 --> 00:50:08,980
a bit, but I just felt like a fucking medic ride along.

647
00:50:08,980 --> 00:50:14,100
I didn't feel like I was actually I wasn't able to practice, you know, so, so you have

648
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:19,060
that but um, but I just see such an abuse of volunteerism these days.

649
00:50:19,060 --> 00:50:21,060
And I would ask was the mayor of volunteer?

650
00:50:21,060 --> 00:50:23,060
No, it was unincorporated.

651
00:50:23,060 --> 00:50:27,300
And again, it was a unique I came into a culture of this was exceptionally well established.

652
00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:29,300
They've been around for almost 100 years.

653
00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:31,780
And so it may have been an anomaly.

654
00:50:31,780 --> 00:50:34,500
And I just, again, man, I just got a little bit of a

655
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:39,220
lucky right place, right time in a great department with, you know, rock star mentors.

656
00:50:39,220 --> 00:50:44,260
But I know others that have been on hybrid departments, and the volunteers kind of get

657
00:50:44,260 --> 00:50:46,420
shit on in some circumstances.

658
00:50:46,420 --> 00:50:51,220
And then that drives a wedge, you see it with ski patrol where you have your nationals and

659
00:50:51,220 --> 00:50:52,260
your careers.

660
00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:55,860
And naturally, you get, you know, if you're the volley, you get the shit job, rather than

661
00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:57,860
the career guys that are doing their things.

662
00:50:57,860 --> 00:51:01,060
And, you know, I think that's the thing that's really important.

663
00:51:01,060 --> 00:51:05,860
The career guys that are doing their things and yeah, I don't know, I just know that I

664
00:51:05,860 --> 00:51:09,940
wish I could volunteer, I find other ways to volunteer and stay in the game and put

665
00:51:09,940 --> 00:51:10,980
my skill set to use.

666
00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:14,260
But I even tried during COVID, reach out to the chief.

667
00:51:14,260 --> 00:51:15,700
I'm like, Hey, man, you're good.

668
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:16,500
I'm here.

669
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:20,180
And you got other guys, other retired firefighters in the valley too.

670
00:51:20,180 --> 00:51:23,540
And he goes, tell you what, man, like we might need you to drive an ambulance.

671
00:51:23,540 --> 00:51:28,260
I'm like, dude, I crush that, you know, if you don't have me doing patient care, and

672
00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:31,620
I certainly can't go interior or anything, but I'm available if you need me.

673
00:51:31,620 --> 00:51:37,540
And that would only in that sort of extreme example, I think, kind of, I kind of reeled

674
00:51:37,540 --> 00:51:40,580
my way in a little bit, but I said, would you take a part time job?

675
00:51:40,580 --> 00:51:45,620
I'm like, one, I don't need that level of additional in my world.

676
00:51:45,620 --> 00:51:49,780
I said, two, if there's a guy that's using this as a stepping stone, guy or gal, as a

677
00:51:49,780 --> 00:51:54,660
stepping stone into their career, I don't want to take that person's spot because I'm

678
00:51:54,660 --> 00:52:00,020
wishing to have, you know, re relive my, my volunteer days or continue them.

679
00:52:00,020 --> 00:52:04,020
So, yeah, I can't speak to, to, to that circumstance.

680
00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:04,740
We didn't have that.

681
00:52:04,740 --> 00:52:05,540
Okay.

682
00:52:06,980 --> 00:52:14,260
I want to go then to any kind of career events that you had that, you know, that are memorable.

683
00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:17,540
Doesn't have to be the worst thing you've seen, but just some memorable calls.

684
00:52:17,540 --> 00:52:20,740
And then let's get to your kind of mental health journey.

685
00:52:20,740 --> 00:52:24,660
And then we'll talk obviously about, about journeys themselves.

686
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:29,620
You know, I'm going to give you, it's, it's as if they're not early ones and they're,

687
00:52:29,620 --> 00:52:33,140
and they're not even necessarily the most extreme or the hardest things.

688
00:52:34,580 --> 00:52:39,380
It's unfortunate in that I've got such, I got such good friends.

689
00:52:40,180 --> 00:52:46,740
I'm allowed to go back and staff a firehouse in Colorado with friends of mine that I go

690
00:52:46,740 --> 00:52:51,780
to Burning Man with, and so I get to get back out on the street and I kind of float around

691
00:52:51,780 --> 00:52:55,220
on an apparatus, whether I'm on a truck engine, on a bus, whatever.

692
00:52:56,340 --> 00:53:02,980
But really the most memorable, I think that had come is I've, after doing medicine work

693
00:53:02,980 --> 00:53:09,060
and all the work that I've done, I'm an empathetic and proficient firefighter EMT.

694
00:53:09,060 --> 00:53:10,900
Now I can't call myself a firefighter anymore.

695
00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:15,780
So, so EMT, because, you know, early on, I don't know, at least it was for me.

696
00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:18,580
I was so internal because I don't want to screw up.

697
00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:22,420
Remember this, do this, do this, don't screw up, don't screw up, don't anybody down it.

698
00:53:22,420 --> 00:53:25,140
So you really kind of thinking of yourself.

699
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:30,420
And then by the time you get comfortable and proficient, you've had to been through so

700
00:53:30,420 --> 00:53:34,100
much stuff that now those, what I think it was almost rolling doors or like a seawall

701
00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:39,140
was up kind of blocking, or at least you think you're blocking what you're experiencing.

702
00:53:39,140 --> 00:53:45,140
And so I was never until recently, both proficient and empathetic.

703
00:53:45,860 --> 00:53:50,660
And so probably the most notable, it was kind of a couple, but I'm going to give you the

704
00:53:50,660 --> 00:53:54,020
biggest one and I can't tell you where it was because it actually made national news,

705
00:53:54,020 --> 00:53:55,060
which is random.

706
00:53:56,740 --> 00:54:07,780
We did CPR on a gentleman for 25 minutes and I had the most unusual experience, got on

707
00:54:07,780 --> 00:54:11,140
scene, me and another firefighter were on compression.

708
00:54:11,140 --> 00:54:13,300
So we just did the rotation that you do.

709
00:54:14,020 --> 00:54:17,860
And the first time I touched the patient, everything went white.

710
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:22,820
All I could see were the other responders and the patient, everything else, all the

711
00:54:22,820 --> 00:54:28,020
spectators, all the other vehicles and whatever else, all disappeared.

712
00:54:28,580 --> 00:54:31,300
And all I was aware of was us.

713
00:54:32,580 --> 00:54:34,980
And it was surreal.

714
00:54:34,980 --> 00:54:39,140
And as I'm doing compressions, I begin to think of the, what I think of as almost like

715
00:54:39,140 --> 00:54:45,380
sorrow waves rolling out of this scene, because as it progressed, became kind of clear, like

716
00:54:45,380 --> 00:54:48,900
this is probably not going to go out as a positive outcome.

717
00:54:49,380 --> 00:54:53,300
Everyone's, it was one of the best cardiac calls I've ever been on.

718
00:54:53,620 --> 00:54:55,940
It was run, God, so great.

719
00:54:57,220 --> 00:55:04,100
But I started to think about the image of his wife getting the call of the patient.

720
00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:05,860
Getting the call of his mom.

721
00:55:05,860 --> 00:55:07,380
It's somehow in the East coast.

722
00:55:07,380 --> 00:55:10,900
And I don't know, this is probably even accurate, but what I thought of is like sorrow

723
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:17,700
waves as I know the worst news first, you know, we always kind of that feeling of, I

724
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:21,700
know it's something that's going to blow a hole and so many lives.

725
00:55:22,180 --> 00:55:24,180
And I think of them sort of radiating out.

726
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:29,780
And then, you know, three, four minutes of compressions, you cycle out.

727
00:55:29,780 --> 00:55:34,100
And then when I stopped touching the patient, then the regular scenery came back.

728
00:55:35,140 --> 00:55:38,260
And interesting enough, they actually took a photo at that moment.

729
00:55:38,980 --> 00:55:39,860
And they did a great job.

730
00:55:39,860 --> 00:55:41,940
You can't see the patient, all the hippo stuff's covered.

731
00:55:41,940 --> 00:55:47,540
But what you see is me going with this look on my face, like, what the fuck,

732
00:55:47,540 --> 00:55:50,100
which is what I was thinking is like, what the fuck is going on?

733
00:55:50,660 --> 00:55:54,500
And my turn goes again, and I get down and everything, same thing happens.

734
00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:59,940
Nothing like I'm thinking like matrix level white, like just the craziest thing.

735
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:04,980
And then I have a dialogue internally with myself of like, wow, man, are we,

736
00:56:04,980 --> 00:56:06,580
are we okay with feeling this?

737
00:56:07,220 --> 00:56:09,620
Or do we want to shut the doors?

738
00:56:09,620 --> 00:56:13,060
And I remember saying to myself, no, man, I think we're good.

739
00:56:13,060 --> 00:56:14,340
You know, let's lean into this.

740
00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:20,900
And then I became 100% aware of what every rescuer was thinking and feeling.

741
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:22,340
I mean, full empathy.

742
00:56:22,340 --> 00:56:24,740
I mean, it was startling.

743
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:31,780
And as all of this is, so I'm kind of in auto mode doing the doing compressions.

744
00:56:31,780 --> 00:56:36,260
And I'm now thinking of and feeling what everybody else is thinking and feeling.

745
00:56:37,220 --> 00:56:39,220
And this went on for the full 25 minutes.

746
00:56:39,220 --> 00:56:45,140
And when the call was over and the doc ran it very smoothly, I remember I, I,

747
00:56:45,940 --> 00:56:51,780
I talked to every member of the team and thanked them for the opportunity to

748
00:56:51,780 --> 00:56:52,740
to work with them.

749
00:56:53,220 --> 00:56:57,700
And it was interesting to see their reactions and, and the doc that was,

750
00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:00,340
that was quarterbacking it was younger.

751
00:57:00,340 --> 00:57:03,300
And I remember I went up to him and it stuck up my hand and introduced myself

752
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:06,260
and said, Hey doc, I just want to tell you, it was one of the best calls I've

753
00:57:06,260 --> 00:57:06,740
ever ran.

754
00:57:06,740 --> 00:57:08,500
You crushed it.

755
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,060
And you would have thought James that I'd flicked him in the nose.

756
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:13,780
He was like, like it had this impact on him.

757
00:57:13,780 --> 00:57:20,100
And then it carried through later on that night, a friend of mine that was

758
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:25,860
there was on a call, had a remarkable job of saving this kid, completely

759
00:57:25,860 --> 00:57:28,020
MacGyvered it and just shit conditions.

760
00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:33,700
And that same doc then said to him, Hey man, you're a badass.

761
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:37,140
Like what you did and how you did it, save this patient.

762
00:57:37,140 --> 00:57:44,340
And Odie was so kind of moved by that, that he shared, shared it with me when

763
00:57:44,340 --> 00:57:46,340
he came back to camp, we were both in camp together.

764
00:57:46,340 --> 00:57:50,020
And I said, Hey, is this what that dude, that guy, that guy, that guy,

765
00:57:50,020 --> 00:57:51,300
look, and I shared my thing.

766
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:55,700
And he goes, dude, that was the continuation of what you said to him.

767
00:57:55,700 --> 00:58:01,060
He shared them with me and really, I mean, it was dramatic and to close out

768
00:58:01,060 --> 00:58:07,060
the story, um, I was relaying this to a friend of mine up in Oregon.

769
00:58:07,060 --> 00:58:13,540
And when I described the whiteness, he burst into tears and I'm like, dude,

770
00:58:13,540 --> 00:58:14,580
what's up?

771
00:58:14,580 --> 00:58:18,980
And he goes, I had a near death experience and I was above my body

772
00:58:18,980 --> 00:58:20,660
watching them do compressions on me.

773
00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:22,020
And they shocked me with the AED.

774
00:58:22,020 --> 00:58:22,660
And I came back.

775
00:58:22,660 --> 00:58:27,060
He goes, what you described was what that place was like.

776
00:58:27,060 --> 00:58:30,580
And he went on to extrapolate that perhaps there was some of that, that was

777
00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:32,180
happening with, with that patient.

778
00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:39,860
But away from the dramatic nature of my experience, really the underlying

779
00:58:39,860 --> 00:58:45,220
thing that was impactful was that ability to be present and have empathy

780
00:58:45,220 --> 00:58:46,740
and be proficient.

781
00:58:46,740 --> 00:58:51,940
And it really, really gave me a true, maybe a truer understanding of what

782
00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:57,140
the impact is on the things that we've seen and done where we think we've

783
00:58:57,140 --> 00:58:58,420
got a wall up.

784
00:58:59,060 --> 00:59:02,980
And that was the work where I'd use the, the, uh, the metaphor of a, of a

785
00:59:02,980 --> 00:59:04,900
seawall where in the beginning, that's fine.

786
00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:07,940
But then it gets up and over and it stays and piles up behind it.

787
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:11,860
Um, thinking that we've can put that away.

788
00:59:11,860 --> 00:59:18,580
I guess I've, it's, it's the sum of that is, it's just how powerful those

789
00:59:18,580 --> 00:59:22,740
experiences actually are, no matter how much callous we think we've built.

790
00:59:23,140 --> 00:59:26,820
Um, and that's probably, I would say that one's probably one of the more,

791
00:59:27,140 --> 00:59:29,460
just because of the breadth and the depth of that.

792
00:59:29,540 --> 00:59:30,020
So.

793
00:59:30,660 --> 00:59:31,380
Beautiful.

794
00:59:31,620 --> 00:59:31,940
Yeah.

795
00:59:31,940 --> 00:59:35,780
I had a call, didn't, didn't all go white, but it just one of those flow

796
00:59:35,780 --> 00:59:39,140
state moments and it was a very tragic call.

797
00:59:39,140 --> 00:59:42,660
It was a family that had gone to visit a theme park, um, and they were boarding

798
00:59:42,660 --> 00:59:46,660
their dog right before and the young man, he was like late twenties, you know,

799
00:59:46,660 --> 00:59:48,260
just fricking nose dived.

800
00:59:48,740 --> 00:59:54,100
Um, and, but it was one of those, uh, you know, diagnoses that you're not

801
00:59:54,100 --> 00:59:57,700
going to save them, but the way we didn't know that at the time, but the

802
00:59:57,700 --> 01:00:02,260
way the code went was just so, so smooth, you know, and just remember

803
01:00:02,260 --> 01:00:06,340
thinking that we, he didn't survive, but we gave him every single chance.

804
01:00:06,340 --> 01:00:08,820
But I remember that just being so honed in.

805
01:00:08,820 --> 01:00:12,820
And like you said, everyone was just, you know, like, like cogs in a machine,

806
01:00:12,820 --> 01:00:14,260
they were all doing the bit they needed to do.

807
01:00:14,260 --> 01:00:18,020
They were all asking the right questions and you know, it was, it was phenomenal.

808
01:00:18,020 --> 01:00:22,740
So even though it wasn't all white, I had that kind of, you know, everything

809
01:00:22,740 --> 01:00:26,820
coming together moment, which again, we felt as one cohesive unit, rather than

810
01:00:26,820 --> 01:00:28,980
a bunch of individuals plugging away at that guy.

811
01:00:29,780 --> 01:00:30,100
Yeah.

812
01:00:30,340 --> 01:00:33,380
And we should, if we have time in this call, I'd love to talk about flow

813
01:00:33,380 --> 01:00:34,820
state and what you describe as well.

814
01:00:34,820 --> 01:00:38,020
I think you and I probably talked about that offline of, you know, that's one

815
01:00:38,020 --> 01:00:41,140
of my things that I drive towards is flow, but we could, if we have time in

816
01:00:41,140 --> 01:00:43,940
this call, if not perhaps we can just chat some other time, but let's talk

817
01:00:43,940 --> 01:00:44,420
about it now.

818
01:00:45,140 --> 01:00:47,140
Well, that what you're talking about is group flow, right?

819
01:00:47,140 --> 01:00:50,420
And, and so flow state is where you're at your optimum and the, and the, and

820
01:00:50,420 --> 01:00:52,980
it's a neurochemical state that we get to.

821
01:00:52,980 --> 01:00:56,420
And I became fascinated with actually how I ended up at Burning Man.

822
01:00:56,980 --> 01:01:00,180
I read a great book called stealing from the

823
01:00:59,980 --> 01:01:06,980
plants, which they talk about how teams find group flow.

824
01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:11,140
And they had a chapter on Burning Man and I finished reading it and called

825
01:01:11,140 --> 01:01:14,180
the Oregon was like, Hey man, you know, do you need EMTs and stuff?

826
01:01:14,180 --> 01:01:16,660
And, and they're like, yeah, you gotta have all these ICS certs.

827
01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:18,660
I'm like, well, that's not a problem.

828
01:01:19,940 --> 01:01:23,220
And, and I've just become absolutely fascinated with flow state.

829
01:01:24,100 --> 01:01:28,580
And what we're both describing in our own way is group flow, which I've

830
01:01:28,580 --> 01:01:33,160
I've experienced on unique and exceptionally well-run medical

831
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:33,980
calls.

832
01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:38,380
And I remember finding it with my crew in structure fires.

833
01:01:38,380 --> 01:01:40,880
And that was the most extreme example.

834
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,360
The biggest, deepest, most powerful flow state experiences

835
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,900
I've ever had was group flow in a structure fire.

836
01:01:52,020 --> 01:01:54,160
And it's one of the books I'd recommend,

837
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,960
is Finding Superman by Steven Kotler, I believe,

838
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:58,280
is how you say his last name.

839
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,180
And he's got a whole series on flow state.

840
01:02:02,180 --> 01:02:08,020
And he talks about his, he puts forth the sort of thesis

841
01:02:08,020 --> 01:02:11,360
that the meaning of life is to be and to find flow state,

842
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:12,700
because you're at your optimum.

843
01:02:12,700 --> 01:02:14,380
And if you rock climb, you probably

844
01:02:14,380 --> 01:02:17,420
get some of that jujitsu, too, where everything works

845
01:02:17,420 --> 01:02:19,980
and you have time dilation, where time either is too fast

846
01:02:19,980 --> 01:02:21,420
or moves slower.

847
01:02:21,420 --> 01:02:23,340
And you just have that great ability.

848
01:02:23,340 --> 01:02:25,780
And we're both fortunate that we've

849
01:02:25,780 --> 01:02:30,660
been in circumstances where we've been optimum.

850
01:02:30,660 --> 01:02:34,420
I think what's so powerful about the flow state conversation

851
01:02:34,420 --> 01:02:37,060
is that's what a lot of high performers are chasing,

852
01:02:37,060 --> 01:02:39,600
whether they're special operations, men and women,

853
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,940
or whether they are elite sports performers.

854
01:02:42,940 --> 01:02:45,580
But if you look at the way the fire service is set up

855
01:02:45,580 --> 01:02:48,420
for many of us with the crazy work weeks

856
01:02:48,420 --> 01:02:50,220
and then the mandatory overtime, I mean,

857
01:02:50,220 --> 01:02:52,620
we're so far on the other side.

858
01:02:52,620 --> 01:02:56,300
And actually, when we did the IHMC study,

859
01:02:56,300 --> 01:02:59,940
they're a renowned international human performance

860
01:02:59,940 --> 01:03:00,620
organization.

861
01:03:00,620 --> 01:03:02,860
And it was them that did this kind of think tank

862
01:03:02,860 --> 01:03:04,380
for Marion County here after they

863
01:03:04,380 --> 01:03:07,780
lost two guys within 12 weeks of each other to suicide.

864
01:03:07,780 --> 01:03:10,740
And the results showed that the first thing was

865
01:03:10,740 --> 01:03:12,140
they need to change the work week.

866
01:03:12,140 --> 01:03:15,300
And 2472 was the number one on the solutions.

867
01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:17,260
Now they've since disregarded the results

868
01:03:17,260 --> 01:03:21,220
of this internationally renowned study.

869
01:03:21,220 --> 01:03:23,140
But yeah, because that would take courage

870
01:03:23,140 --> 01:03:24,340
to follow through with that.

871
01:03:24,340 --> 01:03:29,900
But that aside, the moment we had the first preamble,

872
01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:32,060
he asked about what are we doing for human performance?

873
01:03:32,060 --> 01:03:34,700
And they said, well, we've got this annual test that we do.

874
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:36,820
And then we've got this workout facility.

875
01:03:36,820 --> 01:03:39,620
And he goes, that's not human performance.

876
01:03:39,620 --> 01:03:40,620
I'll never forget that.

877
01:03:40,620 --> 01:03:42,220
His reaction was almost disgust.

878
01:03:42,220 --> 01:03:44,420
Like, what are you talking about?

879
01:03:44,420 --> 01:03:47,820
And this is the problem is that of all the occupations,

880
01:03:47,820 --> 01:03:49,460
the ones that are most likely going

881
01:03:49,460 --> 01:03:53,060
to have lives handling in their balance,

882
01:03:53,060 --> 01:03:54,100
aside from the military.

883
01:03:54,100 --> 01:03:56,300
And even then, it's a small slice of the military.

884
01:03:56,300 --> 01:03:59,260
It's actually front and center.

885
01:03:59,260 --> 01:04:02,020
It's going to be police, fire, EMS, ultimately.

886
01:04:02,020 --> 01:04:04,420
You can put corrections in there and obviously dispatch

887
01:04:04,420 --> 01:04:07,900
from a chain of survival element.

888
01:04:07,900 --> 01:04:11,140
But ultimately, it's just a very, very small handful

889
01:04:11,140 --> 01:04:13,980
of professions that are truly search and rescue

890
01:04:13,980 --> 01:04:15,300
in some of those.

891
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:18,740
And for us to be so far away from an environment that

892
01:04:18,740 --> 01:04:21,260
would actually forge elite performance,

893
01:04:21,260 --> 01:04:26,140
forge a flow state experience, this is what we need to do.

894
01:04:26,140 --> 01:04:27,980
We're not trying to just not die.

895
01:04:27,980 --> 01:04:30,660
We need to be all over here where, you know,

896
01:04:30,660 --> 01:04:31,620
Grenfell fire.

897
01:04:31,620 --> 01:04:34,980
You can climb 18 floors and then make entry

898
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:37,780
and do a primary search and then pull someone back down.

899
01:04:37,780 --> 01:04:40,620
That is the flow state that we're chasing.

900
01:04:40,620 --> 01:04:41,660
Right, right.

901
01:04:41,660 --> 01:04:42,500
That's a great point.

902
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:45,460
And I didn't extrapolate it out that far.

903
01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:47,980
I just thought of the experience.

904
01:04:47,980 --> 01:04:51,220
And mostly from a sure wish I still

905
01:04:51,220 --> 01:04:55,540
had it feeling of when you have that optimum

906
01:04:55,540 --> 01:04:57,700
and everything's perfect.

907
01:04:57,700 --> 01:05:00,420
And I remember, and I still dream about structure fires

908
01:05:00,420 --> 01:05:02,900
now, not as frequently, unfortunately.

909
01:05:02,900 --> 01:05:04,740
And in my dreams, I never have to come out

910
01:05:04,740 --> 01:05:07,980
and change my bottles, which is great.

911
01:05:07,980 --> 01:05:09,300
But you raise a great point.

912
01:05:09,300 --> 01:05:12,060
And hats off to you for all the work that you're doing.

913
01:05:12,060 --> 01:05:14,180
I see that on your posts and your updates

914
01:05:14,180 --> 01:05:16,940
when you're calling out and catching departments doing well,

915
01:05:16,940 --> 01:05:18,620
which is making that change.

916
01:05:18,620 --> 01:05:21,460
And I think as the public becomes more aware

917
01:05:21,460 --> 01:05:25,300
and platforms like yours doing that will help is, hey, man,

918
01:05:25,300 --> 01:05:28,540
who do you want treating your child at 2 o'clock

919
01:05:28,540 --> 01:05:31,580
in the morning, the guy that's well rested and squared away

920
01:05:31,580 --> 01:05:33,500
or the dude who's been up for three days

921
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:37,820
and can't spell his own name and can't remember which.

922
01:05:37,820 --> 01:05:40,220
And you guys as medics, I mean, the things

923
01:05:40,220 --> 01:05:43,980
that you have to remember and the orders and the ratios

924
01:05:43,980 --> 01:05:47,940
and all, dude, you guys should be, I don't know, man.

925
01:05:47,940 --> 01:05:51,020
I'm glad, it's unfortunate, I guess,

926
01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:53,100
that we even have to discuss it,

927
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:55,540
but it's absolutely worth being discussed.

928
01:05:55,540 --> 01:06:00,060
And, and, God, you're fucking spot on, dude.

929
01:06:03,500 --> 01:06:08,500
The zero fail environment that first responders are in

930
01:06:09,140 --> 01:06:12,020
and everyone that you mentioned in there is there.

931
01:06:12,020 --> 01:06:13,860
When you have that, I mean, you know what it's like, dude,

932
01:06:13,860 --> 01:06:16,180
you're in a structure, no flat surfaces, no bright lights,

933
01:06:16,180 --> 01:06:19,380
shit's going down, time is tissue, all of those things.

934
01:06:19,380 --> 01:06:21,100
And you gotta work together,

935
01:06:21,100 --> 01:06:24,340
not only keep your shit together, but then work as a team

936
01:06:24,340 --> 01:06:26,340
in a hierarchical structure.

937
01:06:26,340 --> 01:06:30,300
And most often than not, it's the medic that's running that.

938
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:34,460
And you want that person not only well rested,

939
01:06:34,460 --> 01:06:38,660
well trained and like you said, with elite performance.

940
01:06:38,660 --> 01:06:42,300
I think if more people, it's almost like, hey, dude,

941
01:06:42,300 --> 01:06:46,300
if you're gonna be in a government position

942
01:06:46,300 --> 01:06:48,140
where you can have an influence

943
01:06:48,140 --> 01:06:50,780
and you choose not to do that, fantastic,

944
01:06:50,780 --> 01:06:55,140
come set a set with us and come ride and run calls

945
01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:58,500
and have a responsibility of doing something

946
01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:00,500
and see then what that's like.

947
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:02,580
You know, that's what I, I don't know,

948
01:07:02,580 --> 01:07:03,780
I tell people that all, people,

949
01:07:03,780 --> 01:07:05,420
especially people that suggest

950
01:07:05,420 --> 01:07:06,700
they're worried about their kids driving,

951
01:07:06,700 --> 01:07:07,820
I'm like, well, have them do a third ride

952
01:07:07,820 --> 01:07:09,540
with a busy urban department

953
01:07:09,540 --> 01:07:11,060
and their respect for how to drive.

954
01:07:11,060 --> 01:07:13,460
And so they'll pick up on that.

955
01:07:13,460 --> 01:07:16,500
So anyway, yeah, I'm so glad that you're doing that.

956
01:07:16,500 --> 01:07:18,180
And if there's anything I can do to be

957
01:07:18,180 --> 01:07:20,820
in my own small way supportive of that, please let me know.

958
01:07:20,820 --> 01:07:22,380
Just it's the right thing.

959
01:07:22,380 --> 01:07:23,340
Absolutely, thank you.

960
01:07:23,340 --> 01:07:25,140
Well, just doing this, being a guest on the show,

961
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:26,740
I mean, this is getting these stories out there.

962
01:07:26,740 --> 01:07:29,500
I mean, all the things that we're gonna talk about today.

963
01:07:29,500 --> 01:07:32,340
I wanna get to the mental health, please jump in, please.

964
01:07:32,340 --> 01:07:35,180
On that part, remember, you're gonna talk to Odie.

965
01:07:35,180 --> 01:07:38,500
Odie is a SAM officer at a Colorado department

966
01:07:38,500 --> 01:07:40,300
and a absolute rock star.

967
01:07:40,300 --> 01:07:43,180
And I would ask you to bring this up with him.

968
01:07:43,180 --> 01:07:45,500
He'll have, I believe, some pretty good insight

969
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:46,540
and comment on that.

970
01:07:46,540 --> 01:07:48,540
Cause he's, you know, at a busy house,

971
01:07:48,540 --> 01:07:49,940
it would be the house that I would go to

972
01:07:49,940 --> 01:07:53,740
in Westminster and Colorado and get to spend time

973
01:07:53,740 --> 01:07:56,580
with a very busy crew where, you know,

974
01:07:56,580 --> 01:07:58,620
sleep's broken up and all of those things.

975
01:07:58,620 --> 01:08:01,020
I would invite you to talk to Odie about that.

976
01:08:01,020 --> 01:08:03,180
He's the SAM, he's one of the SAM officers.

977
01:08:03,180 --> 01:08:04,860
Absolutely, I will.

978
01:08:04,860 --> 01:08:07,020
Well, I wanna get to the mental health side.

979
01:08:07,020 --> 01:08:09,660
Just before we do, you touched on Burning Man.

980
01:08:09,660 --> 01:08:12,620
What was some of the, you know, again,

981
01:08:12,620 --> 01:08:13,820
the memorable moments?

982
01:08:13,820 --> 01:08:16,060
I mean, it's quite a unique environment itself.

983
01:08:16,060 --> 01:08:17,940
Obviously it became quite notorious

984
01:08:17,940 --> 01:08:20,580
after the rain they had this last time.

985
01:08:20,580 --> 01:08:24,700
But what was your experiences from an EMS perspective

986
01:08:24,700 --> 01:08:26,860
protecting the people at Burning Man?

987
01:08:26,860 --> 01:08:29,620
Well, my first reaction is that I loved it.

988
01:08:29,620 --> 01:08:32,180
It was fantastic medicine.

989
01:08:32,180 --> 01:08:34,020
And I remember going out there thinking,

990
01:08:34,020 --> 01:08:37,500
cause I learned early on that having an EMT

991
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:38,860
is like a backstage pass, man.

992
01:08:38,860 --> 01:08:40,900
Like you can do some really cool things with it.

993
01:08:40,900 --> 01:08:43,220
I worked with what they called a stadium medic.

994
01:08:43,220 --> 01:08:45,820
Of course I'm not a paramedic, but that was the title thing.

995
01:08:45,820 --> 01:08:47,980
And we were just roving BLS, you know,

996
01:08:47,980 --> 01:08:50,100
with vests on at concerts.

997
01:08:50,100 --> 01:08:53,580
And I was like, crap, this is like almost,

998
01:08:53,580 --> 01:08:54,500
it's really the best part.

999
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:55,700
You get to do a lot of patients,

1000
01:08:55,700 --> 01:08:57,420
you get austere environments,

1001
01:08:57,420 --> 01:08:59,020
you gotta figure out your jazz.

1002
01:08:59,020 --> 01:09:00,500
And then you hand them off to something else

1003
01:09:00,500 --> 01:09:02,380
and you go again without all the stuff

1004
01:09:02,380 --> 01:09:03,860
that's not as much fun, right?

1005
01:09:03,860 --> 01:09:07,140
And then, like I said, I read that book, Stealing Fire,

1006
01:09:07,140 --> 01:09:09,580
called the org, basically got in in a day

1007
01:09:09,580 --> 01:09:12,140
and they were just kind of worked out.

1008
01:09:12,140 --> 01:09:13,340
And I remember going in thinking,

1009
01:09:13,340 --> 01:09:16,180
okay, I've kind of seen everything, right?

1010
01:09:16,180 --> 01:09:19,220
Nope, first shift, I'm like, nope, never seen that before.

1011
01:09:20,660 --> 01:09:21,820
The thing about Burning Man,

1012
01:09:21,820 --> 01:09:25,420
and sometimes those that don't understand

1013
01:09:25,420 --> 01:09:26,620
or know Burning Man are gonna think

1014
01:09:26,620 --> 01:09:27,620
it's something that it's not.

1015
01:09:27,620 --> 01:09:29,220
I was guilty of the same.

1016
01:09:30,260 --> 01:09:31,860
It's the size of Manhattan.

1017
01:09:32,740 --> 01:09:34,140
It's exceptionally well run

1018
01:09:34,140 --> 01:09:36,300
from an emergency services standpoint.

1019
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:39,300
I was on a QRV, which is a quick response vehicle.

1020
01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:41,660
We operated a BLS level,

1021
01:09:41,660 --> 01:09:44,340
almost a ski patrol BLS level, honestly,

1022
01:09:44,340 --> 01:09:46,660
which was exciting because the calls

1023
01:09:46,660 --> 01:09:48,780
were not equivalent to that.

1024
01:09:48,780 --> 01:09:52,180
So you had to be good at it.

1025
01:09:52,180 --> 01:09:55,660
And they required back then three years of licensure.

1026
01:09:56,820 --> 01:09:58,340
And I understand why,

1027
01:09:58,340 --> 01:10:01,620
like it's incredibly austere environment.

1028
01:10:01,620 --> 01:10:06,340
Folks tend to be on a number of mind altering substances.

1029
01:10:06,340 --> 01:10:07,820
They're all dehydrated.

1030
01:10:07,820 --> 01:10:09,300
They're all dressed up for Halloween

1031
01:10:09,300 --> 01:10:10,900
on the dark side of the moon.

1032
01:10:10,900 --> 01:10:14,540
And every call is almost like a national registry question.

1033
01:10:17,500 --> 01:10:21,380
And as I got more into understanding what Burning Man is,

1034
01:10:22,540 --> 01:10:24,140
and someone pointed this out to me, they said,

1035
01:10:24,140 --> 01:10:27,740
hey, you volunteering is both your gift,

1036
01:10:27,740 --> 01:10:29,140
because gifting is a big part

1037
01:10:29,140 --> 01:10:31,420
of the principles of Burning Man.

1038
01:10:31,420 --> 01:10:33,060
But it's also my art.

1039
01:10:33,060 --> 01:10:37,060
And so it was a very Burning Man thing to do

1040
01:10:37,060 --> 01:10:40,540
to volunteer that skillset to serve and protect,

1041
01:10:41,780 --> 01:10:43,700
nearly a hundred thousand people.

1042
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:45,900
I think it becomes something like the fourth largest city

1043
01:10:45,900 --> 01:10:47,900
in Nevada for that week.

1044
01:10:47,900 --> 01:10:50,300
And I would recommend it to anybody,

1045
01:10:50,300 --> 01:10:52,500
because one, you get your assessment skills

1046
01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:54,140
diamond sharp again.

1047
01:10:54,140 --> 01:10:58,260
And it's an environment where your population

1048
01:10:58,260 --> 01:11:00,180
really appreciates you.

1049
01:11:00,180 --> 01:11:03,340
And you get to see just some of the raddest shit

1050
01:11:03,340 --> 01:11:04,580
on the planet.

1051
01:11:04,580 --> 01:11:07,460
And you get to cruise around and your little QRV

1052
01:11:07,460 --> 01:11:08,820
and you're a part of things.

1053
01:11:08,820 --> 01:11:12,220
I mean, it's, and I've, you know, as you tend to,

1054
01:11:12,220 --> 01:11:13,780
you go figure shit out your first day,

1055
01:11:13,780 --> 01:11:15,180
you have no idea what you're doing.

1056
01:11:15,180 --> 01:11:16,460
You go back, you kind of get the sense of it.

1057
01:11:16,460 --> 01:11:18,340
Then you turn into Pied Piper and I've done that.

1058
01:11:18,340 --> 01:11:20,380
Where now other people, and Odie can speak to this now.

1059
01:11:20,380 --> 01:11:23,700
He's actually taking over running the camp that we're in.

1060
01:11:23,700 --> 01:11:26,420
And I introduced him to it because we had a friend,

1061
01:11:26,420 --> 01:11:28,340
a mutual friend that died,

1062
01:11:28,340 --> 01:11:31,540
that wanted to come to Burning Man and volunteer with me.

1063
01:11:31,540 --> 01:11:32,700
And Odie reached out and said,

1064
01:11:32,700 --> 01:11:35,500
hey, we're finishing up Mikey's bucket list.

1065
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:37,580
Can you get us in to Burning Man?

1066
01:11:37,580 --> 01:11:39,300
And most people don't know this.

1067
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:43,140
Burning Man has a very strong firefighter strata

1068
01:11:43,140 --> 01:11:45,620
that runs through the organization.

1069
01:11:45,620 --> 01:11:48,540
And that brotherhood is in full fact.

1070
01:11:48,540 --> 01:11:49,900
And I remember reaching out to Fu,

1071
01:11:49,900 --> 01:11:52,300
who was deputy chief of the fireside.

1072
01:11:52,300 --> 01:11:54,420
And I said, hey man, here's what's going on.

1073
01:11:54,420 --> 01:11:55,420
Can you help us out?

1074
01:11:55,420 --> 01:11:56,940
And he was like, done.

1075
01:11:56,940 --> 01:11:58,660
And all the paperwork, all the bullshit,

1076
01:11:58,660 --> 01:12:00,620
what it takes again was handled.

1077
01:12:00,620 --> 01:12:02,940
The crew got in, no questions asked.

1078
01:12:02,940 --> 01:12:05,180
They handled it for us unbelievably.

1079
01:12:06,100 --> 01:12:07,500
And it then turned into this,

1080
01:12:07,500 --> 01:12:09,580
what was gonna be a one and done.

1081
01:12:09,580 --> 01:12:10,420
Mine was the same way.

1082
01:12:10,420 --> 01:12:12,420
I thought I would do that shit once.

1083
01:12:12,420 --> 01:12:14,860
And now there are lifers at it.

1084
01:12:14,860 --> 01:12:16,380
We'll probably see you there.

1085
01:12:18,340 --> 01:12:19,900
All right, well then let's go to,

1086
01:12:19,900 --> 01:12:22,380
we talked about psychedelics in that experience,

1087
01:12:22,380 --> 01:12:23,980
but let's go to it as a medicine.

1088
01:12:23,980 --> 01:12:28,980
So, before that, walk me through your own experience

1089
01:12:30,140 --> 01:12:32,740
of your kind of mental health downward spiral.

1090
01:12:32,740 --> 01:12:34,180
And then where was the lowest place

1091
01:12:34,180 --> 01:12:35,940
that you found yourself?

1092
01:12:35,940 --> 01:12:38,300
Oh shit, there's probably several.

1093
01:12:38,300 --> 01:12:40,300
And it's always kind of hard to know.

1094
01:12:40,300 --> 01:12:42,340
I mean, just like the last time we did this podcast,

1095
01:12:42,340 --> 01:12:43,980
I was in a pretty dark place

1096
01:12:43,980 --> 01:12:47,300
and didn't recognize how dark that was

1097
01:12:47,300 --> 01:12:48,380
until I came on of it.

1098
01:12:48,380 --> 01:12:52,740
So, growing up in the childhood that I had

1099
01:12:52,740 --> 01:12:57,380
and all of the sort of components of that,

1100
01:12:57,380 --> 01:12:59,060
I had mental health my whole life.

1101
01:12:59,060 --> 01:13:01,780
Didn't know it, we didn't have a term for it back then.

1102
01:13:01,780 --> 01:13:03,340
I didn't know I had depression

1103
01:13:03,340 --> 01:13:05,620
until my wife told me, she's like,

1104
01:13:05,620 --> 01:13:06,700
dude, of course you were.

1105
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:07,540
I'm like, what are you talking about?

1106
01:13:07,540 --> 01:13:08,780
I don't have depression.

1107
01:13:08,780 --> 01:13:10,020
She goes, yeah.

1108
01:13:10,020 --> 01:13:13,380
I'm like, no, there's just this cycle that kind of happens

1109
01:13:13,380 --> 01:13:14,580
and that's just kind of part of it.

1110
01:13:14,580 --> 01:13:16,900
She's like, yeah, that's depression.

1111
01:13:16,900 --> 01:13:19,460
And I'm like, huh, really?

1112
01:13:19,460 --> 01:13:22,460
And that's how I wasn't aware.

1113
01:13:22,460 --> 01:13:27,100
And then having kids really kind of, really,

1114
01:13:27,100 --> 01:13:28,780
you can kind of get away with your own shit

1115
01:13:28,780 --> 01:13:30,460
when it's just you.

1116
01:13:30,460 --> 01:13:34,460
Then if you're trying to be a good parent as I was

1117
01:13:34,460 --> 01:13:37,700
and executed on, I recognized very quickly

1118
01:13:37,700 --> 01:13:39,780
I had things I needed to work on.

1119
01:13:40,700 --> 01:13:41,780
And I didn't know what to do, man.

1120
01:13:41,780 --> 01:13:43,060
Thankfully, I was never a drinker.

1121
01:13:43,060 --> 01:13:46,380
And I say thankfully because it just didn't,

1122
01:13:46,380 --> 01:13:48,180
it didn't bring me euphoria.

1123
01:13:49,060 --> 01:13:51,580
And I know others used it for numbing purposes.

1124
01:13:51,580 --> 01:13:53,900
And I take nothing away from those

1125
01:13:53,900 --> 01:13:58,300
that chose that approach.

1126
01:13:58,300 --> 01:14:02,020
I thankfully didn't because I've seen how that can go.

1127
01:14:02,020 --> 01:14:04,180
I just was really good at pushing things down.

1128
01:14:04,180 --> 01:14:07,580
I could absorb a lot of punishment.

1129
01:14:07,580 --> 01:14:09,540
And I prided myself on that ability

1130
01:14:09,540 --> 01:14:13,380
to kind of take punches, both literally and mentally.

1131
01:14:13,380 --> 01:14:15,220
And then I just ran out of space

1132
01:14:15,220 --> 01:14:19,740
and kids really exposed my limitations.

1133
01:14:19,740 --> 01:14:22,660
And I got lucky, man, like most things.

1134
01:14:22,660 --> 01:14:24,780
And back to the earlier thing that we said in the beginning

1135
01:14:24,780 --> 01:14:27,220
of being open to suggestions.

1136
01:14:27,220 --> 01:14:29,420
And believe it or not, it all started

1137
01:14:29,420 --> 01:14:33,620
because I got a tattoo when I started all of this work

1138
01:14:33,620 --> 01:14:35,180
which tells the story of my family

1139
01:14:35,180 --> 01:14:39,780
using Polynesian tattoo art.

1140
01:14:39,780 --> 01:14:41,900
That artist, about an hour in, stops and goes,

1141
01:14:41,900 --> 01:14:44,260
okay, dude, there's like something going on with you.

1142
01:14:44,260 --> 01:14:46,420
Like you've got some, this explorer thing

1143
01:14:46,420 --> 01:14:49,100
and I need to take you on a spirit walk.

1144
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:51,500
I'm like, what the fuck is a spirit walk?

1145
01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:54,380
And he goes, we go up in this very special place.

1146
01:14:54,380 --> 01:14:56,500
It actually turns out here in the Valley

1147
01:14:56,500 --> 01:14:59,860
where the Washaw Native Americans used to do ceremonies

1148
01:14:59,860 --> 01:15:02,380
and we're gonna do psilocybin.

1149
01:15:02,380 --> 01:15:04,980
And I'm like, fuck is psilocybin?

1150
01:15:04,980 --> 01:15:06,220
And he's like, mushrooms.

1151
01:15:06,220 --> 01:15:07,500
I'm like, oh, like shrooms?

1152
01:15:07,500 --> 01:15:10,180
He goes, yes, but psilocybin.

1153
01:15:10,180 --> 01:15:11,020
I'm like, okay, cool.

1154
01:15:11,020 --> 01:15:13,860
So we go up and it was sort of the first time

1155
01:15:13,860 --> 01:15:17,620
I ever did, I did some LSD in college

1156
01:15:17,620 --> 01:15:19,980
for all the wrong reasons and all the wrong ways

1157
01:15:19,980 --> 01:15:22,380
and got nothing from it other than

1158
01:15:22,380 --> 01:15:24,220
you can do a bunch of it and not die.

1159
01:15:25,220 --> 01:15:28,020
This was the first time I did it with any kind of intention.

1160
01:15:28,020 --> 01:15:30,860
And it wasn't, it was an interesting,

1161
01:15:30,860 --> 01:15:33,500
it was a powerful in its own way.

1162
01:15:33,500 --> 01:15:38,500
And that led then to my doing solo high dose psilocybin.

1163
01:15:39,340 --> 01:15:42,980
It's starting to, as I researched it and did all that,

1164
01:15:42,980 --> 01:15:46,540
it started to unpack and like most things in my world,

1165
01:15:46,540 --> 01:15:48,620
I'm like, okay, dude, I got a pretty good handle

1166
01:15:48,620 --> 01:15:50,500
on this whole situation.

1167
01:15:50,500 --> 01:15:52,540
I couldn't have been more wrong.

1168
01:15:52,540 --> 01:15:56,540
And then I was introduced to group work

1169
01:15:56,540 --> 01:15:58,820
by now one of my very close friends.

1170
01:15:59,900 --> 01:16:02,060
And I was resistant at first where I'm like,

1171
01:16:02,060 --> 01:16:04,540
dude, I'm not really a fucking group guy with this.

1172
01:16:04,540 --> 01:16:05,580
I'm good.

1173
01:16:05,580 --> 01:16:10,580
And he said it in such a way that sort of yes man thing

1174
01:16:10,580 --> 01:16:13,140
where I'm like, dude, this sounds like an opportunity

1175
01:16:13,140 --> 01:16:14,940
I should be open to.

1176
01:16:14,940 --> 01:16:16,220
And I said, okay, you know,

1177
01:16:16,220 --> 01:16:19,300
and I talked to my wife about it and I went to try it.

1178
01:16:19,300 --> 01:16:21,580
And I remember talking with a facilitator

1179
01:16:22,820 --> 01:16:24,260
and explaining my background.

1180
01:16:24,260 --> 01:16:27,380
And then I had done from DMT with this same gentleman

1181
01:16:27,380 --> 01:16:29,260
that took me up on my first spirit walk

1182
01:16:29,260 --> 01:16:32,180
and kind of begin to explore psychedelics

1183
01:16:32,180 --> 01:16:33,820
from a therapeutic standpoint

1184
01:16:33,820 --> 01:16:35,580
and thought I was pretty dialed in.

1185
01:16:36,620 --> 01:16:38,500
And I remember telling him, I said, hey man,

1186
01:16:38,500 --> 01:16:40,700
I'm gonna come in kind of like a pro be.

1187
01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:42,860
And he goes, I don't know what that means.

1188
01:16:42,860 --> 01:16:46,700
I go, my mindset's gonna be, I'm looking to join the group.

1189
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:49,340
The group is not joining me.

1190
01:16:49,340 --> 01:16:52,180
I'm gonna likely just keep a low profile

1191
01:16:52,180 --> 01:16:54,220
and see if I'm a fit for this.

1192
01:16:54,220 --> 01:16:58,220
And so understand I'm not here to be in charge or take over

1193
01:16:58,220 --> 01:17:01,020
or be my typical strong personality.

1194
01:17:01,020 --> 01:17:04,140
I'm here to see if I'm joining this group

1195
01:17:04,140 --> 01:17:05,980
and taking that mindset.

1196
01:17:05,980 --> 01:17:07,780
And I did, and it was super chill.

1197
01:17:07,780 --> 01:17:10,420
And I just remember thinking, wow, this is so not for me.

1198
01:17:10,420 --> 01:17:14,100
Man, like, and to your listeners that might be interested

1199
01:17:14,100 --> 01:17:16,700
in exploring psychedelic medicine groups,

1200
01:17:16,700 --> 01:17:18,180
I'm gonna share all of this

1201
01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:23,180
because it's a nice cautionary tale of not,

1202
01:17:23,380 --> 01:17:25,380
the importance first of all of a group

1203
01:17:25,380 --> 01:17:28,260
of like-minded individuals where that set and setting

1204
01:17:28,260 --> 01:17:30,940
is part of it, but also being open to things

1205
01:17:30,940 --> 01:17:33,140
not being perfect the first time.

1206
01:17:33,140 --> 01:17:37,540
So a lot of these guys were working on masculinity issues.

1207
01:17:37,540 --> 01:17:40,620
Like they didn't know how to be a man

1208
01:17:40,620 --> 01:17:42,660
in their relationships because they were raised

1209
01:17:42,660 --> 01:17:45,060
by women in broken homes or whatever.

1210
01:17:45,060 --> 01:17:48,100
And I didn't know that was a thing

1211
01:17:48,100 --> 01:17:51,380
and didn't, I felt uncomfortable.

1212
01:17:51,380 --> 01:17:54,020
And I was like, yeah, dude, I'm not sure if this is for me.

1213
01:17:54,020 --> 01:17:55,140
And my wife was like, what'd you think?

1214
01:17:55,140 --> 01:17:57,260
I go, yeah, I don't know.

1215
01:17:57,260 --> 01:17:58,780
And then I realized, you know,

1216
01:17:58,780 --> 01:18:00,780
that's probably just me being kind of the dick

1217
01:18:00,780 --> 01:18:03,020
and maybe I could be helpful.

1218
01:18:03,020 --> 01:18:04,820
And so let's go again.

1219
01:18:04,820 --> 01:18:07,740
And went and had a not a good experience

1220
01:18:07,740 --> 01:18:10,380
with some of the folks there that really looked at me

1221
01:18:10,380 --> 01:18:12,880
and said, hey, you know, you're everything I'm not.

1222
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:14,860
You walk into a room and you own it.

1223
01:18:14,860 --> 01:18:16,860
I wish I was like that.

1224
01:18:16,860 --> 01:18:18,740
And we're all in our medicine at this point.

1225
01:18:18,740 --> 01:18:22,180
And I'm like, and I knew enough to know

1226
01:18:22,180 --> 01:18:24,140
that I didn't know what to do with that.

1227
01:18:24,140 --> 01:18:25,700
It's kind of like, if you're in a hole, don't dig.

1228
01:18:25,700 --> 01:18:28,140
And I was like, my first thought was, well, dude,

1229
01:18:28,140 --> 01:18:29,660
if you want what I want, then do what I've done.

1230
01:18:29,660 --> 01:18:30,820
Like, okay.

1231
01:18:30,820 --> 01:18:33,500
And I'm like, well, that's probably not helpful.

1232
01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:35,100
And since I don't know what to do

1233
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:36,740
and you're in a vulnerable state,

1234
01:18:36,740 --> 01:18:38,780
I don't wanna make your shit worse, right?

1235
01:18:38,780 --> 01:18:41,040
By inadvertently doing something.

1236
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,340
And then I started to govern myself and was like, yeah,

1237
01:18:43,340 --> 01:18:45,340
this is, so I went back to my friend

1238
01:18:45,340 --> 01:18:47,940
that had shared this group and invited me in

1239
01:18:47,940 --> 01:18:49,020
and I shared that with them.

1240
01:18:49,020 --> 01:18:51,420
And he goes, okay, dude, come to one more.

1241
01:18:51,420 --> 01:18:52,580
There's a guy I want you to meet.

1242
01:18:52,580 --> 01:18:54,820
He used to be a SWAT police officer.

1243
01:18:54,820 --> 01:18:56,940
I think the two of you will get along.

1244
01:18:56,940 --> 01:19:00,700
And we both show up at ceremony and immediately are like,

1245
01:19:00,700 --> 01:19:01,540
I know you.

1246
01:19:01,540 --> 01:19:03,220
And he goes, I know you too, dude.

1247
01:19:03,220 --> 01:19:05,740
And it was like two meat eaters kind of meeting

1248
01:19:05,740 --> 01:19:08,300
in this otherwise sort of environment.

1249
01:19:08,300 --> 01:19:09,540
And we hit it off.

1250
01:19:09,540 --> 01:19:12,100
And I remember at the end of ceremony, the next morning,

1251
01:19:12,100 --> 01:19:13,580
I walked up to him and I said, hey, fucker,

1252
01:19:13,580 --> 01:19:14,500
we're gonna be friends.

1253
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:16,500
I just need you to know that.

1254
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:18,720
And true, we'd become incredibly close

1255
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,360
and remain to this day.

1256
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,940
And then we did another ceremony

1257
01:19:22,940 --> 01:19:26,020
and another fireman came in and we kind of grouped up

1258
01:19:26,020 --> 01:19:27,980
where we had a group within that group.

1259
01:19:29,260 --> 01:19:31,380
And from that, my friend suggested

1260
01:19:31,380 --> 01:19:33,740
that we should just have our own group.

1261
01:19:33,740 --> 01:19:35,620
And that's kind of closing the loop

1262
01:19:35,620 --> 01:19:38,140
and would turn into a much longer rendition

1263
01:19:38,140 --> 01:19:39,980
of how this all started.

1264
01:19:39,980 --> 01:19:42,100
We ended up starting the first responder veteran group now

1265
01:19:42,100 --> 01:19:43,520
about three years ago.

1266
01:19:44,500 --> 01:19:46,580
And to anybody that might be listening

1267
01:19:46,580 --> 01:19:50,260
that's wondering or thinking about having one of these,

1268
01:19:50,260 --> 01:19:53,020
I would urge you to consider seriously

1269
01:19:53,020 --> 01:19:55,140
whom you have in the group.

1270
01:19:55,140 --> 01:19:59,640
And what we found is veterans and first responders

1271
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:03,140
get along exceptionally well in these circumstances.

1272
01:20:03,140 --> 01:20:07,420
And we all kind of relax when we're with each other.

1273
01:20:07,420 --> 01:20:11,900
We don't feel like we have to respond to somebody else.

1274
01:20:11,900 --> 01:20:15,660
And we coined the phrase turning off the mechanism.

1275
01:20:15,660 --> 01:20:18,380
And I didn't, my friend that suggested the group did,

1276
01:20:18,380 --> 01:20:20,380
and he's fucking on point,

1277
01:20:22,300 --> 01:20:25,220
the importance of that cannot be overstated.

1278
01:20:25,220 --> 01:20:27,740
And so let me kind of stop there, James,

1279
01:20:27,740 --> 01:20:30,940
before I just continue to wander down the path on this thing.

1280
01:20:30,940 --> 01:20:32,240
Because there's a lot to unpack

1281
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,220
with the benefits of psychedelic medicine groups,

1282
01:20:35,220 --> 01:20:36,620
how to set them up.

1283
01:20:36,620 --> 01:20:38,780
And then, and I'd like to get into this

1284
01:20:38,780 --> 01:20:42,980
is what actually came to be the most powerful part of it,

1285
01:20:42,980 --> 01:20:46,400
which is friendship and not the actual psychedelic medicines.

1286
01:20:47,580 --> 01:20:50,140
Yeah, I mean, I want you to carry on just to interject.

1287
01:20:50,140 --> 01:20:53,580
I think this is such an important part of the conversation

1288
01:20:53,580 --> 01:20:56,460
is just simply who, and you can remove the psychedelics.

1289
01:20:56,460 --> 01:20:58,740
I mean, you get people that go to the wrong counselors.

1290
01:20:58,740 --> 01:21:00,580
I mean, these EAP nightmare stories

1291
01:21:00,580 --> 01:21:02,540
that I hear all the time,

1292
01:21:02,540 --> 01:21:05,140
doesn't mean that the actual concept of counseling

1293
01:21:05,140 --> 01:21:07,220
or talk therapy doesn't work,

1294
01:21:07,220 --> 01:21:09,300
but are you sitting in front of the right person?

1295
01:21:09,300 --> 01:21:12,500
And then to be able to relax enough

1296
01:21:12,500 --> 01:21:14,980
and trust the medicine and go on that journey,

1297
01:21:14,980 --> 01:21:16,900
you've got to be around the right people.

1298
01:21:16,900 --> 01:21:18,900
And I think the other side that I hear, I'm sure,

1299
01:21:18,900 --> 01:21:21,760
with this probably integral with this group with you,

1300
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:26,140
but if you go to somewhere where there is a guide,

1301
01:21:26,140 --> 01:21:28,020
some sort of shaman or whatever the title is

1302
01:21:28,020 --> 01:21:30,340
for that person, that's important too.

1303
01:21:30,340 --> 01:21:35,340
And I think the example is I know people,

1304
01:21:35,620 --> 01:21:37,140
I think, correct me if I'm wrong,

1305
01:21:37,140 --> 01:21:38,420
I don't know if it was you that told me,

1306
01:21:38,420 --> 01:21:41,100
but someone else, many people have,

1307
01:21:41,100 --> 01:21:43,320
but I wasn't sure if you tried this too,

1308
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:45,180
but I've had people on the show,

1309
01:21:45,180 --> 01:21:46,460
I have people that I know that said,

1310
01:21:46,460 --> 01:21:48,480
I tried ketamine and it didn't work.

1311
01:21:48,480 --> 01:21:50,420
But actually when you get into it,

1312
01:21:50,420 --> 01:21:52,300
they were hooked up to ketamine

1313
01:21:52,300 --> 01:21:54,140
and then the person walked out.

1314
01:21:54,140 --> 01:21:56,500
Versus as you said, that friendship,

1315
01:21:56,500 --> 01:22:00,120
that guide with someone sitting with you

1316
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:02,920
and actually guiding through or doing psychotherapy,

1317
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:06,220
whatever that dynamic is, whilst you're on the medicine,

1318
01:22:06,220 --> 01:22:09,820
that's usually the missing piece even with ketamine.

1319
01:22:09,820 --> 01:22:11,660
Well, yeah, and ketamine being a disassociative

1320
01:22:11,660 --> 01:22:13,620
is its own sort of special thing.

1321
01:22:13,620 --> 01:22:16,780
But let's kind of break this down a little bit too.

1322
01:22:16,780 --> 01:22:18,900
What is the psychedelic medicine group?

1323
01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:20,960
And so to sort of define the term

1324
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,980
is a collection of participants.

1325
01:22:23,980 --> 01:22:25,420
They call them ceremonies or journeys

1326
01:22:25,420 --> 01:22:27,220
and it's sort of the parlance of our time,

1327
01:22:27,220 --> 01:22:30,180
but what it is is a group of individuals.

1328
01:22:30,180 --> 01:22:32,980
And we always called in a facilitator professional

1329
01:22:32,980 --> 01:22:37,820
that had both the medicines and training and a skillset.

1330
01:22:37,820 --> 01:22:42,300
And we started out with the first facilitator that we had,

1331
01:22:42,300 --> 01:22:45,100
we outgrew him pretty quickly.

1332
01:22:45,100 --> 01:22:48,780
It really, and what we learned over time

1333
01:22:48,780 --> 01:22:52,920
is while there's somewhat of a hierarchical component to it,

1334
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:55,020
there's the facilitator and the participants,

1335
01:22:55,020 --> 01:22:56,780
we're actually interchangeable.

1336
01:22:56,780 --> 01:22:58,500
Like they're on their journey as well

1337
01:22:58,500 --> 01:23:00,220
and we have an impact on them.

1338
01:23:00,220 --> 01:23:03,060
And what we ended up doing is exposing,

1339
01:23:03,060 --> 01:23:05,060
and I don't mean that in a negative way, just was,

1340
01:23:05,060 --> 01:23:10,060
exposing that facilitator's work left to be done.

1341
01:23:10,060 --> 01:23:13,860
He struggled with a group like ours.

1342
01:23:13,860 --> 01:23:17,460
He had a rougher childhood, he was raised by women,

1343
01:23:17,460 --> 01:23:20,380
was bullied, wasn't an alpha type.

1344
01:23:20,380 --> 01:23:23,540
And so having a group of folks like us

1345
01:23:23,540 --> 01:23:26,300
made him uncomfortable when we got past the,

1346
01:23:26,300 --> 01:23:28,020
holy shit, this is cool.

1347
01:23:28,020 --> 01:23:29,780
You know everything, dude, this is rad.

1348
01:23:29,780 --> 01:23:31,580
They're like, okay, wait a minute.

1349
01:23:31,580 --> 01:23:33,460
Like anyone, you get a group of us together over time,

1350
01:23:33,460 --> 01:23:34,660
and we're like, how do we make this better?

1351
01:23:34,660 --> 01:23:36,620
We need to have this and this is where this is going.

1352
01:23:36,620 --> 01:23:39,860
And if there's a power vacuum, we're gonna fill it.

1353
01:23:39,860 --> 01:23:43,020
And we created some tension and then we grew past it.

1354
01:23:43,020 --> 01:23:47,500
But yes, the point of having a good facilitator

1355
01:23:47,500 --> 01:23:52,500
and a process and some ceremonial aspect to it,

1356
01:23:53,780 --> 01:23:55,940
now if there's anything wrong with recreational use,

1357
01:23:55,940 --> 01:23:58,100
recreational doesn't mean reckless.

1358
01:23:58,100 --> 01:23:59,940
Recreational use can be like, hey, some of me

1359
01:23:59,940 --> 01:24:02,580
and some of my friends are gonna go do psilocybin

1360
01:24:02,580 --> 01:24:05,260
and go for a hike in the valley

1361
01:24:05,260 --> 01:24:07,540
and we're gonna enjoy that time together,

1362
01:24:07,540 --> 01:24:09,560
but it's not a ceremony, right?

1363
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:10,740
Is that recreational?

1364
01:24:10,740 --> 01:24:11,860
Yes, is it reckless?

1365
01:24:11,860 --> 01:24:12,700
It is not.

1366
01:24:12,700 --> 01:24:17,700
But having a group like we do, the benefit,

1367
01:24:18,980 --> 01:24:23,980
the real impact, the medicines just allow you to revisit

1368
01:24:24,780 --> 01:24:27,620
whatever your issue or issues are,

1369
01:24:27,620 --> 01:24:30,140
and they will be just by being in existence,

1370
01:24:30,140 --> 01:24:31,540
you're going to have them,

1371
01:24:31,540 --> 01:24:33,860
is allows you to kind of reframe that.

1372
01:24:33,860 --> 01:24:36,720
But the real work is what they call integration.

1373
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:41,720
And integration could be a formal next day process.

1374
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,680
What we've discovered is the real benefit

1375
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,160
is that our integration continues almost every day

1376
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:53,680
because what this exposed to all of us

1377
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:56,000
was how fucking lonely we were

1378
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:58,520
because we had all left whatever our service was,

1379
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,360
military, police, fire, EMS, whatever it was,

1380
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:05,000
and we lost our high functioning zero fail teams.

1381
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:10,080
And being back in just regular civilian life is hard

1382
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:13,920
and very difficult to relate at certain levels

1383
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:17,000
with people that don't share that history.

1384
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,440
And recreating that in the aggregate in this group

1385
01:25:21,440 --> 01:25:25,100
really gave us friends again, like true friends.

1386
01:25:25,100 --> 01:25:29,800
And that's become really the most impactful thing

1387
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:33,840
out of this because then we're constantly working,

1388
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:37,560
call it the work, we're constantly working on being better

1389
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:40,880
and what suits all of us because we're always training

1390
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,880
and trying to be better in hacking and working out

1391
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,240
and wanting to improve the version of ourselves.

1392
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:48,640
That's very natural for those of us with the background

1393
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:49,900
and then others too, don't get me wrong,

1394
01:25:49,900 --> 01:25:52,880
but I can speak more about folks like us.

1395
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:57,880
And the ability to have this council of men,

1396
01:25:57,900 --> 01:25:59,380
and I'm only in a men's group, by the way,

1397
01:25:59,380 --> 01:26:01,360
there's co-ed groups and things of that nature

1398
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:03,400
and those work for those, I don't do that.

1399
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:05,880
That's, I like what works for me.

1400
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:10,480
And that council of men, when you journey with somebody

1401
01:26:10,480 --> 01:26:13,760
in a medicine group like what we have,

1402
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,860
boy, you cut through the bullshit.

1403
01:26:15,860 --> 01:26:18,120
I had friends where I was like, dude,

1404
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:20,280
I know you better than guys I've known for 30 years

1405
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:22,120
and I don't know your fucking last name.

1406
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:24,440
I don't know what you do professionally.

1407
01:26:24,440 --> 01:26:26,720
I'm not exactly sure where you live,

1408
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,740
but it doesn't matter because I actually know you

1409
01:26:29,740 --> 01:26:31,360
kind of like when you used to make friends

1410
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:32,400
when you were eight years old

1411
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:34,460
and you wanted to go build a fort, right?

1412
01:26:34,460 --> 01:26:36,120
Like, hey dude, you wanna go build a fort?

1413
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:37,720
Yeah, cool, rad, I'll bring a hammer

1414
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:39,400
and my dad's got some, whatever, right?

1415
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:42,600
And you go off and you're friends first

1416
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:44,960
before you have any idea of the rest of it.

1417
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:49,140
And so taking it back to having a medicine group

1418
01:26:49,140 --> 01:26:53,080
like what we've had, the benefits aren't,

1419
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:56,280
and the power isn't the medicine itself.

1420
01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:59,200
It's what it opens up and allows for.

1421
01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:02,400
And then the real power is that platform

1422
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:03,580
and foundation of friendship

1423
01:27:03,580 --> 01:27:06,480
that really carries forward and continues.

1424
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:09,200
And we continue to have ceremony about every quarter

1425
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:10,840
and it's various sizes.

1426
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:12,900
Sometimes the groups are smaller, sometimes they're larger,

1427
01:27:12,900 --> 01:27:15,600
sometimes there's new people, sometimes there's not,

1428
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:19,440
but it's an upward trajectory, not linear,

1429
01:27:19,440 --> 01:27:21,040
but it's progress.

1430
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,600
I'm really intrigued as well about the stacking.

1431
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:26,680
So I've had a lot of the people on here,

1432
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:27,840
especially the SEALs,

1433
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:30,800
usually it's the Ibogaine and the 5-Meo DMT,

1434
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:32,400
and then there's some people that have done

1435
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,400
psilocybin specifically, and then like I said,

1436
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:37,360
ketamine and NDMA and some of these other ones,

1437
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:39,780
but usually it's somewhat singular.

1438
01:27:39,780 --> 01:27:42,560
But when you think about other things,

1439
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:46,440
whether it's food, whether it's exercise, principles,

1440
01:27:46,440 --> 01:27:48,360
usually there's a kind of element of,

1441
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:49,680
I have a bit of this and a bit of this,

1442
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:51,140
especially as you progress in.

1443
01:27:51,140 --> 01:27:54,520
So talk to me about exploring,

1444
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:59,440
layering some of these medications and or plant medicines

1445
01:27:59,440 --> 01:28:01,760
to tailor to the individuals

1446
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:03,520
so that you don't age and orange them

1447
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:05,560
and scare the shit out of them.

1448
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:10,360
And first and foremost is having a good facilitator is key

1449
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:13,920
because we're not, once you're on medicine and in the field,

1450
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:15,760
you're not medicating yourself.

1451
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,120
It's not, hey dude, let's try this, let's try that.

1452
01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:19,900
What do you have in your kit kind of a thing?

1453
01:28:19,900 --> 01:28:21,840
It's done with intention.

1454
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:25,120
And so the stack, it always opens

1455
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:27,080
with what we call heart medicine,

1456
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,440
and that can be a version of MDMA,

1457
01:28:29,440 --> 01:28:31,480
which actually was designed for marriage therapy

1458
01:28:31,480 --> 01:28:35,120
because it got people to talk to each other and it works.

1459
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:40,120
And especially for men, that ability to be open

1460
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:44,120
and to talk and to, in MDMA,

1461
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,720
some people consider it a psychedelic, I don't as much.

1462
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:49,200
And Michael Pollan does a great job

1463
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:50,640
in his book of discussing that

1464
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:52,600
and how to change your mind,

1465
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:55,120
which is a book I'd recommend to anybody interested

1466
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:57,480
in exploring this is he does a great job

1467
01:28:57,480 --> 01:29:00,320
and narrates it kind of like you, like a fucking champ.

1468
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:03,080
And so I'd recommend that to anybody,

1469
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:05,640
but MDMA to open it up the hearts.

1470
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:08,000
There's a sassafras kind too that we did

1471
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:09,680
that I prefer over MDMA,

1472
01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:13,000
but you start with heart and that opens things up.

1473
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,120
And there are some ceremonies, that's actually all you need

1474
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:19,960
because it gets going in the just stult effect of the field

1475
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:23,040
where it's a group of people having ceremony elevates it,

1476
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:26,920
not unlike group flow where the combination of people

1477
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:29,600
increases the impact and effect of it

1478
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:31,840
rather than you would have on your own.

1479
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:36,240
And then you can layer in psilocybin, some people do.

1480
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:38,760
You can layer in more of a true psychedelic

1481
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:40,560
in various doses.

1482
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:44,720
We've done some interesting stacks

1483
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:46,600
where we start out with heart.

1484
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:48,520
We do liquid ketamine by IM,

1485
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:50,880
which is kind of an inward process

1486
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:52,040
because it's disassociative.

1487
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:54,360
Like if you and I were in ceremony together

1488
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:57,760
and the facilitator provided us an IM injection of ketamine,

1489
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:00,120
you and I aren't talking about it in real time.

1490
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:04,360
Under your eyeshades, having your experience,

1491
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:07,560
I am near you having my experience.

1492
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:12,560
If you're crying or being verbal, I'm aware of you,

1493
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:16,600
but I'm not having your experience with you.

1494
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:21,600
That allows kind of a evolution of the experience

1495
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:25,840
and then it goes back to another communal experience

1496
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:29,640
where it can be psilocybin or some other combination

1497
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:33,040
and there's all kinds of medicines that can get you there.

1498
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:34,920
And then you mentioned 5-MeO,

1499
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:38,000
which is considered a kind of a capstone psychedelic.

1500
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:40,680
That's a big one for your listeners that don't know.

1501
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:44,520
5-MeO is often referred to as the toad,

1502
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:47,040
which is often the synthesized version

1503
01:30:47,040 --> 01:30:49,640
of the Sonoran Desert Toad venom,

1504
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:53,080
which is one of the most random things in the world

1505
01:30:53,080 --> 01:30:55,480
and one of the more recent psychedelics, by the way.

1506
01:30:55,480 --> 01:30:57,280
I think it was an American that looked

1507
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:01,160
at the venom chemical compound and went, wait a minute,

1508
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:02,520
that's similar to something else.

1509
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:04,200
Let's go down and see if that's true.

1510
01:31:04,200 --> 01:31:09,200
And that person found out that 5-MeO is a big one.

1511
01:31:10,480 --> 01:31:12,480
And I've not sat with Ibogaine.

1512
01:31:12,480 --> 01:31:17,480
I've sat with Ayahuasca, MDMA, psilocybin, 5-MeO, ketamine,

1513
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:22,680
and then there's a various sort of mixtures

1514
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:26,280
within some medicine stacks that I've sat with as well.

1515
01:31:27,140 --> 01:31:31,280
And the big thing is having a skilled guide.

1516
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:35,600
And you'd said, hey, you don't wanna get Agent Orange,

1517
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:36,960
I think you said, or something.

1518
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:39,240
And sometimes that happens.

1519
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,000
I think it was, what's the statement?

1520
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,800
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

1521
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:46,640
That's definitely something you see in the rear view.

1522
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:47,760
And sometimes that happens.

1523
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,520
It's not exact science,

1524
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:52,760
and this is where having a trained facilitator

1525
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:54,880
helps you navigate through that

1526
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:58,160
and figuring out where your boundaries and levels are.

1527
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,400
And sometimes, well, I should say sometimes,

1528
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:04,000
every time the medicine will give you what you need,

1529
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:05,800
not necessarily what you want.

1530
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,480
And as you get more experienced at it,

1531
01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:11,040
it really isn't a bad trip.

1532
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:12,620
There are challenging trips,

1533
01:32:12,620 --> 01:32:14,760
but those experiences are generally

1534
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:15,960
where your growth happens.

1535
01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:16,780
So.

1536
01:32:16,780 --> 01:32:20,300
I know a lot of the people that do the Ibogaine,

1537
01:32:20,300 --> 01:32:21,420
there's the purging elements,

1538
01:32:21,420 --> 01:32:24,380
some of the people do Ayahuasca, same thing.

1539
01:32:24,380 --> 01:32:28,020
Where I feel like this conversation is a lot more nuanced

1540
01:32:28,020 --> 01:32:30,660
is if there's a deep addiction,

1541
01:32:30,660 --> 01:32:33,120
if there's a strong suicide ideation,

1542
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:34,580
I don't think there's anything wrong with that

1543
01:32:34,580 --> 01:32:37,180
because you're at a point now where that pales

1544
01:32:37,180 --> 01:32:39,820
into comparison of what you're dealing with at the moment.

1545
01:32:39,820 --> 01:32:41,820
And I know both of those have saved a lot of lives,

1546
01:32:41,820 --> 01:32:44,540
and people that are close to me, for example.

1547
01:32:44,540 --> 01:32:47,100
But what I love about these other elements,

1548
01:32:47,100 --> 01:32:49,700
like I did MDMA recreationally,

1549
01:32:49,700 --> 01:32:50,980
and I'll tell you, I had the time of my life.

1550
01:32:50,980 --> 01:32:53,180
I danced with Japanese people for hours on end.

1551
01:32:53,180 --> 01:32:55,620
I had deep conversations sitting by the lockers.

1552
01:32:55,620 --> 01:32:57,980
And it is, it has a cost.

1553
01:32:57,980 --> 01:32:59,700
The next day you feel like everything's gray.

1554
01:32:59,700 --> 01:33:03,860
So there's no perfect thing, but I didn't stab anyone,

1555
01:33:03,860 --> 01:33:06,980
didn't drive a car into a minivan full of kids.

1556
01:33:06,980 --> 01:33:09,060
I just danced and hugged people all night.

1557
01:33:09,060 --> 01:33:12,020
So that for me, and then I've done psilocybin,

1558
01:33:12,020 --> 01:33:14,620
mushrooms were actually legal in Japan when I lived there.

1559
01:33:14,620 --> 01:33:16,460
So Planet of the Apes, by the way,

1560
01:33:16,460 --> 01:33:18,660
was one of the most epic things to watch on the screen.

1561
01:33:18,660 --> 01:33:20,980
Especially when the lights come up

1562
01:33:20,980 --> 01:33:23,220
and everyone in the audience is a monkey as well.

1563
01:33:23,220 --> 01:33:24,060
But.

1564
01:33:24,060 --> 01:33:26,100
That makes perfect sense to me.

1565
01:33:26,100 --> 01:33:27,100
It was amazing.

1566
01:33:27,100 --> 01:33:30,380
But so those are things that I've tried,

1567
01:33:30,380 --> 01:33:32,260
and I'm like, I enjoyed that.

1568
01:33:32,260 --> 01:33:35,540
And I did open up and it did put me in a relaxed state.

1569
01:33:35,540 --> 01:33:37,460
So this is what I think is also important.

1570
01:33:37,460 --> 01:33:40,460
If people have heard that if you do psychedelic medicine,

1571
01:33:40,460 --> 01:33:42,660
you're gonna be throwing up and shitting.

1572
01:33:42,660 --> 01:33:44,580
If you are in a deep state of addiction,

1573
01:33:44,580 --> 01:33:47,380
that might be a bodily purge that needs to happen

1574
01:33:47,380 --> 01:33:48,420
as you're processing it.

1575
01:33:48,420 --> 01:33:51,860
But if you're wanting to open some doors,

1576
01:33:51,860 --> 01:33:55,820
for example, I quit drinking three and a half months ago now.

1577
01:33:55,820 --> 01:33:57,340
I had a guy on the show talking about it,

1578
01:33:57,340 --> 01:33:59,660
and he has a year, not even a year challenge,

1579
01:33:59,660 --> 01:34:01,900
just called No Beer for One Year.

1580
01:34:01,900 --> 01:34:03,220
And I was like, I'm gonna do that.

1581
01:34:03,220 --> 01:34:05,580
And boom, like that, I'd stopped.

1582
01:34:05,580 --> 01:34:08,180
And I talked about habitual drinking for a long time,

1583
01:34:08,180 --> 01:34:10,380
not binge drinking, but habitual.

1584
01:34:10,380 --> 01:34:13,140
So for me, it's like, all right, I don't have that.

1585
01:34:13,140 --> 01:34:14,940
I don't have a lot of the things

1586
01:34:14,940 --> 01:34:16,860
that haunt our men and women, I just don't.

1587
01:34:16,860 --> 01:34:19,900
So what is this lesser entry to this?

1588
01:34:19,900 --> 01:34:22,820
So I can just go in and explore it.

1589
01:34:22,820 --> 01:34:25,540
And as you said, and I love this last time we spoke,

1590
01:34:25,540 --> 01:34:29,180
sometimes it's just a case of taking a few hours

1591
01:34:29,180 --> 01:34:33,220
to escape, to enjoy, to just,

1592
01:34:33,220 --> 01:34:35,220
almost like you said, the recreational side.

1593
01:34:35,220 --> 01:34:37,860
So just see if anything comes up, but if it doesn't,

1594
01:34:37,860 --> 01:34:40,900
you just got to have that experience for a few hours.

1595
01:34:40,900 --> 01:34:42,860
I'm removing the stigma of that as well.

1596
01:34:42,860 --> 01:34:44,900
So yes, there's the Ibogaine,

1597
01:34:44,900 --> 01:34:48,100
and as Marcus Capone says, a nuclear option,

1598
01:34:48,100 --> 01:34:50,220
but now you've kind of underlined that there are

1599
01:34:50,220 --> 01:34:52,980
more gentle, subtle ones if you're kind of dipping your toe

1600
01:34:52,980 --> 01:34:56,940
and you wanna explore or increase your confidence.

1601
01:34:56,940 --> 01:35:00,540
Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned the nuance of that.

1602
01:35:00,540 --> 01:35:03,380
And I didn't put that together this time,

1603
01:35:03,380 --> 01:35:06,300
even though we had talked about it previously,

1604
01:35:06,300 --> 01:35:08,980
is it's a more G rated experience.

1605
01:35:08,980 --> 01:35:11,380
And this is what I would, as people were learning,

1606
01:35:11,380 --> 01:35:13,460
and I'm very open about, and I'm fortunate,

1607
01:35:13,460 --> 01:35:16,620
given my circumstance that I can be open about this,

1608
01:35:16,620 --> 01:35:21,580
as you had mentioned, it's impacted me dramatically.

1609
01:35:21,580 --> 01:35:25,020
My kids even say that, like it's noticeable,

1610
01:35:26,020 --> 01:35:27,980
noticeable in you, the positive improvement.

1611
01:35:27,980 --> 01:35:30,660
And so it's literally helped me be the better version

1612
01:35:30,660 --> 01:35:33,820
of myself at every level in every aspect of my life.

1613
01:35:33,820 --> 01:35:37,020
And that's not superfluous, that is legit.

1614
01:35:37,020 --> 01:35:40,460
And I've known it to save people within my community,

1615
01:35:40,460 --> 01:35:43,060
and I've certainly heard of so many others that it has.

1616
01:35:43,060 --> 01:35:45,900
And so I'm fortunate that I can be open with it,

1617
01:35:45,900 --> 01:35:48,180
but you can have a G rated experience.

1618
01:35:48,180 --> 01:35:51,500
And when I would talk with people about it,

1619
01:35:51,500 --> 01:35:53,900
other first responders that,

1620
01:35:53,900 --> 01:35:55,900
I wouldn't say recruiting, but they would ask about it.

1621
01:35:55,900 --> 01:35:58,580
It wasn't, it's not something that you push

1622
01:35:58,580 --> 01:35:59,580
by any stretch, right?

1623
01:35:59,580 --> 01:36:01,180
But I'm open to it.

1624
01:36:01,180 --> 01:36:02,420
And I'd say, listen, man,

1625
01:36:02,420 --> 01:36:04,180
you're guaranteed to have a good time.

1626
01:36:04,180 --> 01:36:07,020
And my very first ceremony when I did it with our group,

1627
01:36:07,020 --> 01:36:08,460
and I was finally comfortable,

1628
01:36:08,460 --> 01:36:11,380
I had my big epiphany that lasted this day,

1629
01:36:11,380 --> 01:36:14,820
which is, you know what, man, it feels good to feel good.

1630
01:36:14,820 --> 01:36:18,740
And how long has it been since you've actually felt good?

1631
01:36:18,740 --> 01:36:20,380
And that's what I would tell guys, like, listen, man,

1632
01:36:20,380 --> 01:36:22,540
no matter what else happens,

1633
01:36:22,540 --> 01:36:25,700
and the chance of you having a big experience

1634
01:36:25,700 --> 01:36:27,580
your first time is pretty fucking small.

1635
01:36:27,580 --> 01:36:30,060
Like, unless you're doing IBO gain,

1636
01:36:30,060 --> 01:36:31,300
or you're doing the five,

1637
01:36:31,300 --> 01:36:35,940
or you're going with a bigger dose of something,

1638
01:36:35,940 --> 01:36:38,420
easing in and getting to know the medicine

1639
01:36:38,420 --> 01:36:40,260
and getting your footing a little bit,

1640
01:36:40,260 --> 01:36:41,980
you're not gonna have necessarily a big,

1641
01:36:41,980 --> 01:36:42,820
I certainly didn't,

1642
01:36:42,820 --> 01:36:46,460
I'm still working on basic shit in my group.

1643
01:36:46,460 --> 01:36:47,660
Like, I just am, it takes,

1644
01:36:47,660 --> 01:36:49,540
there's just certain levels to things.

1645
01:36:49,540 --> 01:36:51,900
But it's a very G-rated experience.

1646
01:36:51,900 --> 01:36:54,420
But using heart medicine, as we call it,

1647
01:36:54,420 --> 01:36:56,500
you're guaranteed to have a good time.

1648
01:36:56,500 --> 01:36:58,660
Not unlike, you know, dancing with Japanese

1649
01:36:58,660 --> 01:37:01,220
and hanging out by the lockers and being open.

1650
01:37:01,220 --> 01:37:03,060
That's what it does.

1651
01:37:03,060 --> 01:37:06,540
And you don't have to have a multi-day experience.

1652
01:37:06,540 --> 01:37:09,260
You don't have to worry about being on a diet,

1653
01:37:09,260 --> 01:37:10,100
is what they call that,

1654
01:37:10,100 --> 01:37:12,740
when you prepare what you eat,

1655
01:37:12,740 --> 01:37:15,860
and cleaning yourself out to be prepared for

1656
01:37:15,860 --> 01:37:17,220
if you have a purge.

1657
01:37:17,220 --> 01:37:19,380
And it's so funny, we're such dudes.

1658
01:37:19,380 --> 01:37:22,340
Like, the group of us did our ayahuasca weekend.

1659
01:37:22,340 --> 01:37:23,820
That's all we were concerned about,

1660
01:37:23,820 --> 01:37:25,380
is like, are we gonna shit ourselves?

1661
01:37:25,380 --> 01:37:27,500
Like, dude, I'm good, I can puke all day.

1662
01:37:27,500 --> 01:37:29,020
I do not wanna shit myself.

1663
01:37:29,020 --> 01:37:30,060
Are we gonna, where it depends,

1664
01:37:30,060 --> 01:37:32,980
like, that was a straight up topic in our Signal thread

1665
01:37:32,980 --> 01:37:35,180
of, dude, what are we doing about this?

1666
01:37:35,180 --> 01:37:38,380
Like, where's our head relative to shitting ourselves?

1667
01:37:38,380 --> 01:37:40,540
And you don't have to have those.

1668
01:37:40,540 --> 01:37:42,740
In fact, when I recommend to people,

1669
01:37:42,740 --> 01:37:47,180
if you're trying to have this become part

1670
01:37:47,180 --> 01:37:51,300
of your improvement path in your life,

1671
01:37:51,300 --> 01:37:54,220
don't start with the really nuclear option,

1672
01:37:54,220 --> 01:37:55,100
as Marcus calls it.

1673
01:37:55,100 --> 01:37:56,620
And he does a great job of describing that.

1674
01:37:56,620 --> 01:37:59,260
And he's doing what they're doing at Vets

1675
01:37:59,260 --> 01:38:01,220
and with TerraMind, it's big stuff.

1676
01:38:02,860 --> 01:38:04,700
You don't have to start there.

1677
01:38:04,700 --> 01:38:09,300
Just set yourself up for success to be with a facilitator

1678
01:38:09,300 --> 01:38:10,780
and then, dude, ease in, bro.

1679
01:38:10,780 --> 01:38:13,020
You know, crawl, walk, run, all that shit.

1680
01:38:13,020 --> 01:38:15,380
And it's hard when you got a bunch of meat eaters,

1681
01:38:15,380 --> 01:38:17,780
like the Seals, you know why they all do Ibogaine?

1682
01:38:17,780 --> 01:38:20,700
Because the fucking first group did Ibogaine.

1683
01:38:20,700 --> 01:38:22,860
And they said, like, that's why we do Ibogaine,

1684
01:38:22,860 --> 01:38:26,420
because that's what they go, whoa, I wanted what he had.

1685
01:38:26,420 --> 01:38:27,340
No, no, we had this other thing.

1686
01:38:27,340 --> 01:38:28,460
Yeah, I'm not doing that.

1687
01:38:28,460 --> 01:38:31,100
I want the hardest thing that that dude had.

1688
01:38:31,100 --> 01:38:33,700
And that, I believe, is Ibogaine works.

1689
01:38:33,700 --> 01:38:34,860
And I haven't sat with it yet.

1690
01:38:34,860 --> 01:38:37,260
It's finding its way to me.

1691
01:38:37,260 --> 01:38:39,860
And I think it's likely to happen

1692
01:38:39,860 --> 01:38:41,380
within the next 12 months for me.

1693
01:38:41,380 --> 01:38:44,020
But you don't have to do as you put it.

1694
01:38:44,020 --> 01:38:45,460
And I'm so glad you brought this up,

1695
01:38:45,460 --> 01:38:50,460
is it's a much easier entree into medicine work

1696
01:38:51,220 --> 01:38:55,780
that isn't the Navy SEAL, nuclear, deep sea option.

1697
01:38:55,780 --> 01:38:58,740
You can get there, and for some folks, that's appropriate.

1698
01:38:58,740 --> 01:39:00,340
And for some folks, they don't have to.

1699
01:39:00,340 --> 01:39:02,020
That doesn't serve them.

1700
01:39:02,020 --> 01:39:04,700
And it isn't a requirement.

1701
01:39:04,700 --> 01:39:06,380
It isn't, when you get into these groups,

1702
01:39:06,380 --> 01:39:09,100
boy, I'll tell you that ego shit goes out the door.

1703
01:39:09,100 --> 01:39:10,860
You're not gathering badges or certs

1704
01:39:10,860 --> 01:39:13,620
and comparing or any of that kind of stuff.

1705
01:39:13,620 --> 01:39:15,620
That goes, that's just not there.

1706
01:39:17,460 --> 01:39:19,460
Thanks for bringing that up.

1707
01:39:19,460 --> 01:39:22,100
That's an important, that's really important.

1708
01:39:22,100 --> 01:39:23,100
Absolutely.

1709
01:39:23,100 --> 01:39:25,140
Well, I'm just gonna tangent super quickly

1710
01:39:25,140 --> 01:39:26,980
when you saw me messing my phone.

1711
01:39:26,980 --> 01:39:30,460
The interview with the hockey goalkeeper

1712
01:39:30,460 --> 01:39:34,020
was Clint Malarchuk, and that was episode 277.

1713
01:39:34,020 --> 01:39:36,100
So for people listening, I think I just reposted that

1714
01:39:36,100 --> 01:39:39,140
not too long ago, so it should pop up even in Spotify

1715
01:39:39,140 --> 01:39:40,820
and some of those ones.

1716
01:39:40,820 --> 01:39:41,820
Thank you.

1717
01:39:41,820 --> 01:39:45,060
I'll take a listen, because I remember seeing that,

1718
01:39:45,060 --> 01:39:47,420
and I can still see it in my mind's eye,

1719
01:39:47,420 --> 01:39:49,060
the blood on the ice.

1720
01:39:49,060 --> 01:39:54,060
And then as I got into EMS, you do this where,

1721
01:39:54,060 --> 01:39:57,300
I was on the ice, and you're always doing the what ifs.

1722
01:39:57,300 --> 01:39:58,140
What would I do here?

1723
01:39:58,140 --> 01:39:59,220
What would I do there?

1724
01:39:59,220 --> 01:40:03,020
And all of that, and I remember thinking back to that stuff.

1725
01:40:03,020 --> 01:40:06,460
And so I was the only goalie in our leagues.

1726
01:40:06,460 --> 01:40:08,540
So there's a rule that a goalie can't go past

1727
01:40:08,540 --> 01:40:11,860
the center line in a game, because that's a penalty

1728
01:40:11,860 --> 01:40:13,300
because of whatever.

1729
01:40:13,300 --> 01:40:18,300
And I, as an EMT and stuff, would do that.

1730
01:40:18,300 --> 01:40:22,220
And I remember, I'm in a game where somebody got hurt,

1731
01:40:22,220 --> 01:40:24,740
and it was a significant thing, and I came down,

1732
01:40:24,740 --> 01:40:26,660
and the ref tried to stop me.

1733
01:40:26,660 --> 01:40:28,660
And I had to have a discussion with him.

1734
01:40:28,660 --> 01:40:29,500
He was young.

1735
01:40:29,500 --> 01:40:31,580
I'm like, dude, just so we're clear,

1736
01:40:31,580 --> 01:40:33,220
you're committing a felony right now.

1737
01:40:33,220 --> 01:40:34,500
I'm not here as a goalkeeper.

1738
01:40:34,500 --> 01:40:35,740
I'm here as an EMT.

1739
01:40:35,740 --> 01:40:37,380
I'm gonna need to, you have to let me.

1740
01:40:37,380 --> 01:40:39,580
And the other ref came over, like dude, he always,

1741
01:40:39,580 --> 01:40:40,940
because that would happen in these leagues.

1742
01:40:40,940 --> 01:40:42,580
And I remember very clearly,

1743
01:40:42,580 --> 01:40:44,380
I'm gonna go back and listen to that one.

1744
01:40:44,380 --> 01:40:46,540
And I hope he's doing well.

1745
01:40:46,540 --> 01:40:49,380
And maybe he's someone that would benefit from medicine work.

1746
01:40:49,380 --> 01:40:50,700
Yeah, quite possibly.

1747
01:40:50,700 --> 01:40:52,060
Yeah, I actually wanna get him back on again.

1748
01:40:52,060 --> 01:40:54,100
It was an amazing conversation.

1749
01:40:54,100 --> 01:40:56,700
And the thing is, the fine line with these people,

1750
01:40:56,700 --> 01:40:59,800
and I just had Guy on who,

1751
01:41:00,980 --> 01:41:02,260
I don't know if we were talking about this before.

1752
01:41:02,260 --> 01:41:03,980
I think it was with someone on the phone earlier,

1753
01:41:03,980 --> 01:41:07,180
but I just had Guy Miles wrongfully convicted,

1754
01:41:07,180 --> 01:41:09,460
19 years in prison.

1755
01:41:09,460 --> 01:41:10,940
He was in Las Vegas,

1756
01:41:10,940 --> 01:41:13,820
and the robbery was in Orange County, California,

1757
01:41:13,820 --> 01:41:15,100
and they still convicted him.

1758
01:41:15,100 --> 01:41:17,580
That he had eyewitnesses, alibis, all that stuff.

1759
01:41:17,580 --> 01:41:19,220
Horrendous, just because he was a street-

1760
01:41:19,220 --> 01:41:21,300
Did that scare the shit out of you?

1761
01:41:21,300 --> 01:41:23,900
But by the grace of God, go I.

1762
01:41:23,900 --> 01:41:25,820
I mean, dude, that could be,

1763
01:41:25,820 --> 01:41:27,540
I mean, just the randomness of that.

1764
01:41:27,540 --> 01:41:29,860
That is so frightening to me.

1765
01:41:29,860 --> 01:41:32,020
But I'll try going back to the goalkeeper.

1766
01:41:33,740 --> 01:41:36,540
I'm more than happy to talk to him if he'd like to about,

1767
01:41:36,540 --> 01:41:38,260
if he's having, if he's been,

1768
01:41:38,260 --> 01:41:41,500
you had made a comment about his mental health journey.

1769
01:41:41,500 --> 01:41:43,420
Anyway, if you feel it'd be beneficial,

1770
01:41:43,420 --> 01:41:45,180
you'd be more than welcome to connect us.

1771
01:41:45,180 --> 01:41:46,380
Yeah, absolutely.

1772
01:41:46,380 --> 01:41:47,220
I'll let him know,

1773
01:41:47,220 --> 01:41:48,100
because the reason I was talking about Guy

1774
01:41:48,100 --> 01:41:49,860
is that Guy in the conversation,

1775
01:41:49,860 --> 01:41:53,100
I use this as my promo for the episode,

1776
01:41:53,100 --> 01:41:54,980
he starts getting choked up and he's saying,

1777
01:41:54,980 --> 01:41:57,620
look, this is really hard for me to talk about.

1778
01:41:57,620 --> 01:41:59,300
I don't wanna talk about it anymore,

1779
01:41:59,300 --> 01:42:00,740
but I'm on here talking about it today

1780
01:42:00,740 --> 01:42:02,900
because it's important and we need to change it.

1781
01:42:02,900 --> 01:42:04,620
He said, but, and I forget how he phrased it,

1782
01:42:04,620 --> 01:42:07,220
he's like, after this, I'm gonna go climb into my bed

1783
01:42:07,220 --> 01:42:09,700
and my girlfriend's gonna hold me for a while.

1784
01:42:09,700 --> 01:42:11,700
And this is how crushed this guy is, you know what I mean?

1785
01:42:11,700 --> 01:42:13,660
But I remember Clint back to him,

1786
01:42:14,620 --> 01:42:17,740
you imagine you're near death,

1787
01:42:17,740 --> 01:42:21,700
and then the weeks after you're on all the television,

1788
01:42:21,700 --> 01:42:23,860
bleeding to death and then the anniversary

1789
01:42:23,860 --> 01:42:24,940
and you know what I mean?

1790
01:42:24,940 --> 01:42:25,780
Oh yeah.

1791
01:42:25,780 --> 01:42:28,580
So it's kind of the thing, it's this reoccurring thing.

1792
01:42:28,580 --> 01:42:31,380
Same as Chris Fields, the Oklahoma bombing

1793
01:42:31,380 --> 01:42:33,380
of him holding the dead toddler.

1794
01:42:33,380 --> 01:42:34,740
Every fucking anniversary,

1795
01:42:34,740 --> 01:42:36,380
they show him holding a dead toddler.

1796
01:42:36,380 --> 01:42:38,220
So we've gotta be cognizant of that.

1797
01:42:38,220 --> 01:42:39,940
He had a red helmet on too, man.

1798
01:42:39,940 --> 01:42:42,260
He had a red Metro helmet on, I can picture,

1799
01:42:42,260 --> 01:42:43,740
that guy run a Pulitzer Prize

1800
01:42:43,740 --> 01:42:46,220
or whatever you win for that photograph.

1801
01:42:46,220 --> 01:42:51,220
And I can picture that right now in my mind's eye,

1802
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:52,620
the whole thing of it.

1803
01:42:53,540 --> 01:42:58,260
And God, it's so, I mean, those are people, you know?

1804
01:42:58,260 --> 01:43:00,820
And that poor dude, I can't even imagine.

1805
01:43:00,820 --> 01:43:03,620
I mean, you know that feeling, man, of just that,

1806
01:43:06,820 --> 01:43:11,060
yeah, man, fuck, that's so fucking much to carry.

1807
01:43:11,060 --> 01:43:13,860
That weight of that, and no matter how you do it,

1808
01:43:13,860 --> 01:43:17,300
it always comes out the same.

1809
01:43:17,300 --> 01:43:18,980
Yeah, it almost killed him.

1810
01:43:21,100 --> 01:43:23,540
I'm not the least bit surprised by that.

1811
01:43:23,540 --> 01:43:26,060
And again, my offer to him is the same.

1812
01:43:26,060 --> 01:43:28,940
If there's anything I could do to be of service,

1813
01:43:28,940 --> 01:43:31,980
he's welcome to be connected with me.

1814
01:43:31,980 --> 01:43:32,820
Beautiful.

1815
01:43:32,820 --> 01:43:35,060
That's a good segue to my very last kind of area

1816
01:43:35,060 --> 01:43:37,700
before we do some closing questions.

1817
01:43:37,700 --> 01:43:38,940
Barriers to entry,

1818
01:43:38,940 --> 01:43:41,660
especially if you wear a uniform for a living.

1819
01:43:41,660 --> 01:43:43,620
I've been very vocal about, you know,

1820
01:43:43,620 --> 01:43:46,060
and so have so many guests, which is beautiful.

1821
01:43:46,060 --> 01:43:48,580
When you get multiple, over and over again,

1822
01:43:48,580 --> 01:43:50,900
people with law enforcement, ATF,

1823
01:43:50,900 --> 01:43:53,820
talking about the epic failure of drug prohibition

1824
01:43:53,820 --> 01:43:55,660
and how it's caused so many problems.

1825
01:43:55,660 --> 01:43:57,900
And the irony now that it's, you know,

1826
01:43:57,900 --> 01:43:59,260
our men and women that serve,

1827
01:43:59,260 --> 01:44:01,780
they have to go overseas to get the medicine to heal them

1828
01:44:01,780 --> 01:44:02,980
for protecting this country.

1829
01:44:02,980 --> 01:44:06,500
I mean, you know, the hypocrisy is just insane.

1830
01:44:06,500 --> 01:44:10,820
But that being said, for the first responders, military,

1831
01:44:10,820 --> 01:44:13,540
you know, doctors, nurses that are listening,

1832
01:44:13,540 --> 01:44:18,540
what's your advice to circumnavigating the legal red tape

1833
01:44:18,620 --> 01:44:21,060
so they can get some of these therapies

1834
01:44:21,060 --> 01:44:23,780
and actually heal, maybe even save their own life?

1835
01:44:25,860 --> 01:44:27,020
Okay.

1836
01:44:27,020 --> 01:44:28,160
Do we have to do any disclaimers?

1837
01:44:28,160 --> 01:44:29,540
I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a doc,

1838
01:44:29,540 --> 01:44:30,620
I'm not any of those things.

1839
01:44:30,620 --> 01:44:32,340
I'm just a knuckle dragging firefighter

1840
01:44:32,340 --> 01:44:33,260
that's been through this.

1841
01:44:33,260 --> 01:44:35,500
And I like to, let me preface this

1842
01:44:35,500 --> 01:44:38,020
with the parable of the man that fell into the hole.

1843
01:44:38,020 --> 01:44:39,020
I don't know if you've heard this, James,

1844
01:44:39,020 --> 01:44:41,140
I think I've probably shared it with you.

1845
01:44:41,140 --> 01:44:46,140
When people ask me why I'm so open about my own experience,

1846
01:44:46,580 --> 01:44:48,540
both with my mental health struggles

1847
01:44:48,540 --> 01:44:53,140
and then finding improvement with psychedelic medicines,

1848
01:44:53,140 --> 01:44:55,220
which, you know, are illegal

1849
01:44:55,220 --> 01:44:57,580
and a lot of the places that we do them

1850
01:44:57,580 --> 01:45:00,900
and the medicines that we do, which I believe is wrong,

1851
01:45:00,900 --> 01:45:03,100
but the fact of the matter is it's true.

1852
01:45:04,260 --> 01:45:06,440
And the parable is this, the man's walking down the road,

1853
01:45:06,440 --> 01:45:08,600
falls in a hole and he can't get out.

1854
01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:11,860
The walls are too high and he's wondering what to do.

1855
01:45:11,860 --> 01:45:14,580
And a doctor walks by and our guy yells up,

1856
01:45:14,580 --> 01:45:16,820
hey doc, I'm in a hole, can you help me out?

1857
01:45:16,820 --> 01:45:18,220
And the doctor writes in a script,

1858
01:45:18,220 --> 01:45:20,020
throws it in the hole and he moves on.

1859
01:45:20,020 --> 01:45:22,500
And then a priest walks by, hey father, I'm in a hole.

1860
01:45:22,500 --> 01:45:23,500
Priest writes out a prayer,

1861
01:45:23,500 --> 01:45:25,180
throws it in the hole and he moves on.

1862
01:45:25,180 --> 01:45:27,020
And then a friend walks by, hey Joe, it's me,

1863
01:45:27,020 --> 01:45:28,220
can you help me out?

1864
01:45:28,220 --> 01:45:29,580
And the friend jumps in a hole.

1865
01:45:29,580 --> 01:45:30,940
And our guy goes, are you stupid?

1866
01:45:30,940 --> 01:45:32,460
Now we're both down here.

1867
01:45:32,460 --> 01:45:34,660
And the friend says, yeah, but I've been down here before

1868
01:45:34,660 --> 01:45:36,200
and I know the way out.

1869
01:45:36,200 --> 01:45:40,860
And so that's really sums up why one, we do this work,

1870
01:45:40,860 --> 01:45:42,820
but why I'm willing to be open about it.

1871
01:45:42,820 --> 01:45:45,740
And there's, yes, there's stigma, yes, there's blowback,

1872
01:45:45,740 --> 01:45:49,980
but to circumnavigate or sorry,

1873
01:45:49,980 --> 01:45:52,020
just to navigate the process,

1874
01:45:52,020 --> 01:45:55,340
one is to understand what your department does.

1875
01:45:55,340 --> 01:45:59,700
Are you a department that tests for substances?

1876
01:45:59,700 --> 01:46:01,320
If you're in a department that doesn't,

1877
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:05,860
then you're much more open to explore MDMA

1878
01:46:05,860 --> 01:46:08,060
and other compounds.

1879
01:46:08,060 --> 01:46:11,420
Again, I recommend strongly urge that you do this

1880
01:46:11,420 --> 01:46:15,380
with a facilitator and not sort of on your own journey

1881
01:46:15,380 --> 01:46:17,140
of self-discovery, even though that's by the way,

1882
01:46:17,140 --> 01:46:19,900
how I started for the most part, I don't recommend that.

1883
01:46:21,300 --> 01:46:24,980
If your department tests for things and MDMA would trigger,

1884
01:46:24,980 --> 01:46:26,300
then don't do that.

1885
01:46:27,220 --> 01:46:30,060
Psilocybin, they can't test for as I understand it.

1886
01:46:30,060 --> 01:46:32,220
And again, I would verify this independently

1887
01:46:32,220 --> 01:46:34,140
cause you know, blah, blah, blah,

1888
01:46:34,140 --> 01:46:35,740
cause it's a fungus.

1889
01:46:35,740 --> 01:46:38,420
DMT, they can't test for it cause you and I tend,

1890
01:46:38,420 --> 01:46:40,260
and you and I and everybody listening,

1891
01:46:41,180 --> 01:46:42,960
makes DMT within your body.

1892
01:46:43,820 --> 01:46:47,940
And so there are certain things that won't trigger

1893
01:46:47,940 --> 01:46:49,580
any of those tests.

1894
01:46:49,580 --> 01:46:53,100
And I would proceed with caution to make sure

1895
01:46:53,100 --> 01:46:55,060
that you understand that ketamine is legal.

1896
01:46:55,060 --> 01:46:57,540
I believe in probably every state,

1897
01:46:57,540 --> 01:47:00,540
but maybe I'm honest, again, I don't wanna speak out of turn.

1898
01:47:00,540 --> 01:47:02,060
You wanna verify this.

1899
01:47:02,060 --> 01:47:05,700
Ketamine is its own situation.

1900
01:47:05,700 --> 01:47:06,780
Certainly helpful.

1901
01:47:06,780 --> 01:47:08,700
In fact, we actually did some private funding

1902
01:47:08,700 --> 01:47:11,980
for local law enforcement to have ketamine therapy

1903
01:47:11,980 --> 01:47:13,580
to help them with their situations

1904
01:47:13,580 --> 01:47:15,980
and they had tremendous success with it.

1905
01:47:15,980 --> 01:47:18,240
And that's under the care of a physician.

1906
01:47:19,260 --> 01:47:23,100
I know Terra Mind bringing Marcus back into the conversation.

1907
01:47:23,100 --> 01:47:26,160
They're making that available through employers

1908
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:29,000
for people with treatment resistant depression.

1909
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:32,700
So they're kind of staying on the FDA licensure side of that,

1910
01:47:32,700 --> 01:47:35,500
but working through that as well.

1911
01:47:35,500 --> 01:47:38,580
Ketamine, again, it's a full day experience,

1912
01:47:38,580 --> 01:47:40,820
even though you're gonna go and it's roughly in an hour

1913
01:47:40,820 --> 01:47:43,260
to have the experience, there is residual from it.

1914
01:47:43,260 --> 01:47:45,660
You're not going from a ketamine infusion therapy

1915
01:47:45,660 --> 01:47:47,980
to whatever you do professionally.

1916
01:47:47,980 --> 01:47:50,260
And you still have to get from the doctor's office

1917
01:47:50,260 --> 01:47:53,700
to your house and coming back into the real world

1918
01:47:53,700 --> 01:47:55,820
as its own sort of jarring situation,

1919
01:47:55,820 --> 01:47:57,820
but it's the best of what you can do.

1920
01:47:57,820 --> 01:48:00,460
And so there are options to it.

1921
01:48:01,420 --> 01:48:03,320
I know that psilocybin has been,

1922
01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:06,560
I've had success working with other first responders

1923
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:09,180
that are still on the job with psilocybin

1924
01:48:09,180 --> 01:48:12,140
and not having any concern of triggering any of their tests.

1925
01:48:12,140 --> 01:48:14,060
But again, any listener interested,

1926
01:48:14,060 --> 01:48:16,140
they wanna verify anything I say,

1927
01:48:16,140 --> 01:48:19,060
cause there's lots of reasons I'm not a doc

1928
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:21,940
or a lawyer or anybody else like that.

1929
01:48:21,940 --> 01:48:24,540
So please, please, please do your homework.

1930
01:48:24,540 --> 01:48:28,660
But there are ways to get into medicine work

1931
01:48:28,660 --> 01:48:33,660
without having to do the ones that can trigger certain tests.

1932
01:48:33,780 --> 01:48:36,680
And again, I'm not suggesting or pushing anybody to do this,

1933
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:39,280
but if that's something that you're interested in,

1934
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:42,140
you can find your way into medicine work

1935
01:48:42,140 --> 01:48:45,620
and not run afoul of some of your tests

1936
01:48:45,620 --> 01:48:47,100
where you can stay on the right side

1937
01:48:47,100 --> 01:48:49,260
of your department's policies.

1938
01:48:49,260 --> 01:48:51,300
And I wouldn't wanna put anybody at risk.

1939
01:48:52,180 --> 01:48:54,900
I know we've had other first responders

1940
01:48:54,900 --> 01:48:56,740
that wanted to come into ceremony

1941
01:48:56,740 --> 01:48:58,900
where we used a stack of medicines

1942
01:48:58,900 --> 01:49:02,140
and I had to advise them and not doing that for concern

1943
01:49:02,140 --> 01:49:06,700
that some of those might be close enough to an MDMA

1944
01:49:06,700 --> 01:49:08,860
or another substance that could trigger

1945
01:49:08,860 --> 01:49:10,860
and the risk of that's too high.

1946
01:49:10,860 --> 01:49:13,900
And so I would then tell them,

1947
01:49:13,900 --> 01:49:17,040
hey, this sort of ceremony and this sort of medicine stack

1948
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:20,180
with this facilitator is not something I would suggest

1949
01:49:20,180 --> 01:49:21,800
given your circumstance.

1950
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:23,300
There are ways to get there.

1951
01:49:23,300 --> 01:49:25,880
You just have to, I mean, just be heads up about it.

1952
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:27,660
Just do the legal things like alcohol

1953
01:49:27,660 --> 01:49:29,980
and antidepressants and opioids.

1954
01:49:29,980 --> 01:49:31,660
Actually don't fucking do those.

1955
01:49:31,660 --> 01:49:34,700
Fuck, yeah, there's, I mean, this,

1956
01:49:34,700 --> 01:49:37,860
and you can get my soap box out on this one

1957
01:49:37,860 --> 01:49:39,140
to just look at something like this.

1958
01:49:39,140 --> 01:49:41,580
Like you made a comment of, I mean, I don't know

1959
01:49:41,580 --> 01:49:44,300
how many SEALs and other tier one operators

1960
01:49:44,300 --> 01:49:47,180
that have been through, I went through, fuck dude,

1961
01:49:47,180 --> 01:49:49,340
combat guilt, that's a whole nother level.

1962
01:49:49,340 --> 01:49:51,300
I've never had to like take a life.

1963
01:49:51,300 --> 01:49:53,560
My struggles have been trying just simply to save them

1964
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:55,460
or see what happens when things don't go that way.

1965
01:49:55,460 --> 01:49:59,760
But I've got friends in our groups that, man,

1966
01:50:02,540 --> 01:50:05,580
the level of things that those guys are dealing with,

1967
01:50:05,580 --> 01:50:08,500
guys and gals are dealing with,

1968
01:50:08,500 --> 01:50:11,560
you can't even get your head wrapped around it at all.

1969
01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:15,840
Like the level and the depth and the weight of that

1970
01:50:15,840 --> 01:50:17,300
and the fact that then they go, hey, cool,

1971
01:50:17,300 --> 01:50:19,760
we got this thing that'll help you.

1972
01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:21,160
Just can't fucking do it here.

1973
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:23,420
Sorry, bro, you're gonna have to go to Mexico.

1974
01:50:23,420 --> 01:50:25,500
You're gonna have to go to Costa Rica.

1975
01:50:25,500 --> 01:50:29,180
And, but that's, sorry, we can't help you here.

1976
01:50:29,180 --> 01:50:30,740
That's bullshit.

1977
01:50:30,740 --> 01:50:32,620
But they do have those options.

1978
01:50:32,620 --> 01:50:34,860
And here's to your other question.

1979
01:50:34,860 --> 01:50:39,380
I don't know how Ayahuasca sits on any of the testing scales.

1980
01:50:40,420 --> 01:50:42,300
I wanna say that it doesn't,

1981
01:50:42,300 --> 01:50:44,540
but again, that's something to verify.

1982
01:50:44,540 --> 01:50:47,020
And just be careful if you've got any listeners

1983
01:50:47,020 --> 01:50:49,480
that are going, hey, I'm gonna go do an Ayahuasca ceremony.

1984
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:52,220
It's gotten popular enough now

1985
01:50:52,220 --> 01:50:55,380
that quality control is a concern.

1986
01:50:55,380 --> 01:50:56,500
Back in the earlier days

1987
01:50:56,500 --> 01:50:58,540
where it was very limited and very new,

1988
01:50:58,540 --> 01:51:02,460
you took so much effort to get to a true shaman

1989
01:51:02,460 --> 01:51:05,300
that you didn't have nearly the level of,

1990
01:51:05,300 --> 01:51:07,020
it's always a referral basis, right?

1991
01:51:07,020 --> 01:51:09,300
Now you can find them on the internet

1992
01:51:09,300 --> 01:51:11,220
and just be careful of larger groups of people

1993
01:51:11,220 --> 01:51:12,500
that you don't know.

1994
01:51:12,500 --> 01:51:14,500
Because once you're that far into it,

1995
01:51:14,500 --> 01:51:16,260
things can go sideways pretty quick.

1996
01:51:17,540 --> 01:51:18,540
I think another thing,

1997
01:51:18,540 --> 01:51:21,980
if people struggle with the morality side,

1998
01:51:21,980 --> 01:51:25,100
as well as the legality and the recent events,

1999
01:51:25,100 --> 01:51:30,100
I think underline how to remove that from your mind.

2000
01:51:30,900 --> 01:51:32,620
I'm not thinking of the right word, but it's not there.

2001
01:51:32,620 --> 01:51:34,500
Disprove or whatever the term would be.

2002
01:51:35,460 --> 01:51:40,460
Yeah, but I mean, just the story of the FDA

2003
01:51:40,940 --> 01:51:44,440
refusing to allow MDMA to be approved

2004
01:51:44,440 --> 01:51:47,600
for the exact reason that we've been talking about today

2005
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:51,060
is the same FDA that approved OxyContin

2006
01:51:51,060 --> 01:51:53,660
that created the opioid crisis that we have now.

2007
01:51:53,660 --> 01:51:55,380
Do you know the story of how that happened?

2008
01:51:55,380 --> 01:51:58,200
The way they had that dude locked in a hotel room

2009
01:51:58,200 --> 01:52:00,820
for like three days and he used like,

2010
01:52:04,060 --> 01:52:06,420
I forget how the language was something about,

2011
01:52:06,420 --> 01:52:08,660
isn't shown to be addictive.

2012
01:52:08,660 --> 01:52:10,860
I mean, really use this strange language.

2013
01:52:10,860 --> 01:52:14,260
And the FDA, you think, is not some big organization.

2014
01:52:14,260 --> 01:52:16,260
Like it's a small group.

2015
01:52:16,260 --> 01:52:19,220
And right now you think about the efficacy of alcohol

2016
01:52:19,220 --> 01:52:21,020
wouldn't pass FDA approval.

2017
01:52:21,020 --> 01:52:23,820
So for those that are still in what I think of

2018
01:52:23,820 --> 01:52:26,340
the Nancy Reagan, just don't do drugs.

2019
01:52:26,340 --> 01:52:28,860
This is your brain on drugs bullshit.

2020
01:52:28,860 --> 01:52:30,940
And the Nixon hangover of all that.

2021
01:52:30,940 --> 01:52:32,760
If you wanna really kind of step away,

2022
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:35,060
these are ancient medicines.

2023
01:52:35,060 --> 01:52:36,780
We're just a little late

2024
01:52:36,780 --> 01:52:39,560
and we've put our own Western spin on it.

2025
01:52:40,660 --> 01:52:44,020
The Puritan stuff, the Nixon part of things.

2026
01:52:44,020 --> 01:52:46,920
If you think about all the studies done on psychedelics

2027
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:48,620
in the forties and fifties,

2028
01:52:48,620 --> 01:52:50,400
they're just recreating those by the way,

2029
01:52:50,400 --> 01:52:52,500
like people think this is a new thing.

2030
01:52:52,500 --> 01:52:53,700
It's just not.

2031
01:52:53,700 --> 01:52:55,860
Like this is back before color television.

2032
01:52:58,060 --> 01:53:02,300
And psilocybin and ayahuasca and all of,

2033
01:53:02,300 --> 01:53:04,100
these are ancient, ancient medicines.

2034
01:53:04,100 --> 01:53:06,220
And we ought to be, and another side is

2035
01:53:06,220 --> 01:53:10,480
we ought to be careful of how we're approaching this

2036
01:53:10,480 --> 01:53:13,720
and not over-Westernize the commercialization

2037
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:15,100
of these medicines as well.

2038
01:53:15,100 --> 01:53:20,060
There's, for those that have been through medicine work,

2039
01:53:21,340 --> 01:53:25,220
this is powerful stuff that we are,

2040
01:53:25,220 --> 01:53:26,700
we're receiving benefit from,

2041
01:53:26,700 --> 01:53:29,620
but there's a lot more going on to it than just that.

2042
01:53:29,620 --> 01:53:34,620
And it's not a force to be treated lightly

2043
01:53:37,180 --> 01:53:38,880
or as just a commodity.

2044
01:53:40,060 --> 01:53:43,860
Yeah, if you're looking to your government

2045
01:53:43,860 --> 01:53:46,880
to make your moral decisions, you got other issues.

2046
01:53:48,380 --> 01:53:51,460
There's a phrase that always gets my fucking back up.

2047
01:53:51,460 --> 01:53:52,820
Oh, we need to see the data.

2048
01:53:52,820 --> 01:53:54,400
We need to see studies.

2049
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:58,020
And you imagine Steve the Inca 2000 years ago going,

2050
01:53:58,020 --> 01:54:00,940
I'm not sure about this, this plant medicine.

2051
01:54:00,940 --> 01:54:02,860
I'm gonna need to see some research.

2052
01:54:02,860 --> 01:54:05,500
No, does it work or does it not work?

2053
01:54:05,500 --> 01:54:07,660
Has it got a trail of people that are dead now

2054
01:54:07,660 --> 01:54:10,980
because they took the wrong plant medicine?

2055
01:54:10,980 --> 01:54:11,820
No, okay.

2056
01:54:11,820 --> 01:54:14,260
You've got a lot of people that come back from wars

2057
01:54:14,260 --> 01:54:17,820
and now they do the ceremony and then they seem to be healed.

2058
01:54:17,820 --> 01:54:20,700
They seem to kind of progress and grow from it.

2059
01:54:20,700 --> 01:54:22,900
If it's literally thousands of years,

2060
01:54:22,900 --> 01:54:26,220
look at acupuncture, look at chiropractic,

2061
01:54:26,220 --> 01:54:28,820
really adjustment, manual adjustment of people.

2062
01:54:28,820 --> 01:54:30,500
Look at the way we eat.

2063
01:54:30,500 --> 01:54:31,720
Oh, we're gonna do some research

2064
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:34,100
on whether organic food is healthy.

2065
01:54:34,100 --> 01:54:36,320
Or you could just not, you fucking idiot,

2066
01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:37,640
because it's common sense.

2067
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:39,180
So this is what really gets my back.

2068
01:54:39,180 --> 01:54:41,820
I hope it's exciting in the psychedelic world

2069
01:54:41,820 --> 01:54:43,780
because the research is coming.

2070
01:54:43,780 --> 01:54:45,860
Yeah, we don't need the fucking research, mate.

2071
01:54:45,860 --> 01:54:48,220
If people have been doing it for thousands of years,

2072
01:54:48,220 --> 01:54:50,140
that means that it works.

2073
01:54:50,140 --> 01:54:52,500
So should you be studying it alongside?

2074
01:54:52,500 --> 01:54:56,500
Yes, should be waiting for research to tell you you can do it?

2075
01:54:56,500 --> 01:55:00,840
No, I don't need research for the acupuncturists I go to.

2076
01:55:00,840 --> 01:55:04,360
So if this is shown with high level of efficacy

2077
01:55:04,360 --> 01:55:08,940
and very, very low level of addiction and harm,

2078
01:55:08,940 --> 01:55:11,980
again, under the right situation with the right people,

2079
01:55:11,980 --> 01:55:14,180
that in itself should be enough.

2080
01:55:14,180 --> 01:55:19,060
But this whole we need research and data is purely,

2081
01:55:19,060 --> 01:55:21,380
so they're like, well, hold on, let's give enough time

2082
01:55:21,380 --> 01:55:24,100
so we can make a synthetic version of this,

2083
01:55:24,100 --> 01:55:25,780
abolish the natural one,

2084
01:55:25,780 --> 01:55:28,380
and then we'll sell it to you for a few thousand dollars.

2085
01:55:28,380 --> 01:55:31,500
Yeah, and you make a comment, I just want to,

2086
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:34,280
for clarity's sake, and I still hear this from people,

2087
01:55:34,280 --> 01:55:38,540
and it's a good reminder that is well known

2088
01:55:38,540 --> 01:55:41,580
as the psychedelic medicines are and their benefits.

2089
01:55:41,580 --> 01:55:45,020
And I do have somewhat of an echo chamber, of course,

2090
01:55:45,020 --> 01:55:47,220
because the people in my life,

2091
01:55:47,220 --> 01:55:50,420
there are those that still think psychedelics are addictive

2092
01:55:50,420 --> 01:55:51,940
and they're not.

2093
01:55:51,940 --> 01:55:55,620
Ketamine has the potential to be addictive.

2094
01:55:57,300 --> 01:56:00,840
And I believe that to be the only one that has that.

2095
01:56:01,860 --> 01:56:04,780
Let me tell you, when you go do psychedelics,

2096
01:56:04,780 --> 01:56:07,140
you're not rocking the next day.

2097
01:56:07,140 --> 01:56:11,460
You're not, you're like, whoa, okay, I got to process that.

2098
01:56:11,460 --> 01:56:14,060
And so for any of your listeners that are still trying

2099
01:56:14,060 --> 01:56:16,340
to get their head wrapped around this,

2100
01:56:16,340 --> 01:56:18,460
there's more than enough research,

2101
01:56:18,460 --> 01:56:22,180
more than enough evidence, anecdotal people's testimonials,

2102
01:56:22,180 --> 01:56:24,500
but some of the misinformation is,

2103
01:56:24,500 --> 01:56:27,380
oh, these are addictive properties, they are not.

2104
01:56:27,380 --> 01:56:29,420
You don't get addicted to mushrooms,

2105
01:56:29,420 --> 01:56:32,900
you don't get addicted to ibogaine or ayahuasca

2106
01:56:32,900 --> 01:56:34,180
or any of those.

2107
01:56:34,180 --> 01:56:35,960
And so just to be clear on that,

2108
01:56:35,960 --> 01:56:38,060
that's not the one.

2109
01:56:38,060 --> 01:56:42,740
And yeah, and the fact that you can't,

2110
01:56:42,740 --> 01:56:44,260
there's a great chart out there

2111
01:56:44,260 --> 01:56:46,180
and you may want to add it into one of your links.

2112
01:56:46,180 --> 01:56:49,500
And I should be able to find it of like the,

2113
01:56:49,500 --> 01:56:51,700
what is it, the number of deaths attributed

2114
01:56:51,700 --> 01:56:53,300
to certain compounds.

2115
01:56:53,300 --> 01:56:58,300
And it's like alcohol, heroin, cigarettes, whatever.

2116
01:56:58,500 --> 01:57:01,540
And then you're like, and then down, it's like,

2117
01:57:01,540 --> 01:57:03,100
and there aren't any for psychedelics

2118
01:57:03,100 --> 01:57:06,220
because you basically can't die from it.

2119
01:57:06,220 --> 01:57:07,300
So it's marijuana.

2120
01:57:07,300 --> 01:57:09,620
I'm not a big fan of it myself personally,

2121
01:57:09,620 --> 01:57:11,720
as far as I don't like the experience,

2122
01:57:11,720 --> 01:57:13,780
but you look at marijuana related deaths,

2123
01:57:13,780 --> 01:57:15,820
it's basically zero as well.

2124
01:57:15,820 --> 01:57:19,780
Yeah, it leads to twinkie consumption and art.

2125
01:57:19,780 --> 01:57:22,740
And I'm not a THC in marijuana,

2126
01:57:22,740 --> 01:57:26,220
not a medicine that I don't care for either,

2127
01:57:26,220 --> 01:57:28,180
but I'm not against it by any stretch.

2128
01:57:28,180 --> 01:57:30,140
For those that they have a positive impact,

2129
01:57:30,140 --> 01:57:32,740
it just hasn't been the medicine that works for me.

2130
01:57:32,740 --> 01:57:37,620
But yeah, and to any of your listeners that are interested,

2131
01:57:37,620 --> 01:57:41,260
think for yourself, do some homework, have a good guide,

2132
01:57:41,260 --> 01:57:43,140
good facilitator, those words are sometimes

2133
01:57:43,140 --> 01:57:44,340
used interchangeably.

2134
01:57:44,340 --> 01:57:46,540
Not a fan of the word shaman, shaman,

2135
01:57:46,540 --> 01:57:49,900
unless they're in Peru or the Amazon somewhere

2136
01:57:49,900 --> 01:57:51,820
and they've earned that title.

2137
01:57:51,820 --> 01:57:53,940
I've never dealt with a shaman

2138
01:57:53,940 --> 01:57:57,320
and nobody I've ever dealt with calls themselves that.

2139
01:57:57,320 --> 01:57:59,420
It's kind of like if you meet Buddha on the trail,

2140
01:57:59,420 --> 01:58:00,640
kill him, right?

2141
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:02,900
So if you think you've met a shaman, you haven't,

2142
01:58:02,900 --> 01:58:04,780
and I would probably steer clear of anyone

2143
01:58:04,780 --> 01:58:06,660
that uses that term to describe themselves.

2144
01:58:06,660 --> 01:58:10,180
Unless, and again, even I don't even think the,

2145
01:58:10,180 --> 01:58:12,320
I won't try to pronounce it in Spanish,

2146
01:58:14,260 --> 01:58:16,020
I don't even think they refer to themselves that way.

2147
01:58:16,020 --> 01:58:17,620
So that's probably a flag,

2148
01:58:17,620 --> 01:58:19,340
if someone's putting themselves out as a shaman,

2149
01:58:19,340 --> 01:58:21,500
it's like meeting Buddha, you didn't.

2150
01:58:21,500 --> 01:58:23,620
I'd say that word shaman is interchangeable

2151
01:58:23,620 --> 01:58:25,120
with the word leader.

2152
01:58:25,120 --> 01:58:27,460
Anyone who walks around calling themselves a leader,

2153
01:58:27,460 --> 01:58:29,620
usually you need to push them off the path too.

2154
01:58:29,620 --> 01:58:31,960
You're mostly not.

2155
01:58:33,060 --> 01:58:35,780
Yeah, and that's an important thing is you,

2156
01:58:35,780 --> 01:58:37,740
as this becomes, and I say this,

2157
01:58:37,740 --> 01:58:39,940
meaning psychedelic medicines and therapies,

2158
01:58:39,940 --> 01:58:42,780
and I mean, I went to the MAPS conference in 2023,

2159
01:58:42,780 --> 01:58:45,700
there were 10,000 people in Denver for that week,

2160
01:58:45,700 --> 01:58:47,300
and you're gonna get a mix of folks,

2161
01:58:47,300 --> 01:58:49,660
folks that are doing things the right way,

2162
01:58:49,660 --> 01:58:52,140
and certainly folks that are doing it for the other thing.

2163
01:58:52,140 --> 01:58:53,660
And you just have to be heads up about that

2164
01:58:53,660 --> 01:58:57,140
and not, you know, there's apples and there's oranges

2165
01:58:57,140 --> 01:58:58,100
and there's things like that.

2166
01:58:58,100 --> 01:59:00,540
So just like my experience, my first couple of times

2167
01:59:00,540 --> 01:59:03,300
in a group setting didn't go well,

2168
01:59:03,300 --> 01:59:04,700
even though it was the same facilitator

2169
01:59:04,700 --> 01:59:07,220
that we started our first responder group with,

2170
01:59:07,220 --> 01:59:09,980
first responder veteran group with, and it went fine.

2171
01:59:09,980 --> 01:59:11,500
You're gonna have some of that.

2172
01:59:11,500 --> 01:59:14,300
So if you're aiming for perfection,

2173
01:59:14,300 --> 01:59:16,660
you're probably not gonna find it.

2174
01:59:16,660 --> 01:59:17,660
Beautiful.

2175
01:59:17,660 --> 01:59:19,660
All right, well, I'd like to throw some closing questions

2176
01:59:19,660 --> 01:59:22,060
at you before I let you go, if you've got time.

2177
01:59:22,060 --> 01:59:22,980
100%.

2178
01:59:22,980 --> 01:59:23,820
Brilliant.

2179
01:59:23,820 --> 01:59:25,500
The first one I'd love to ask,

2180
01:59:25,500 --> 01:59:27,400
is there a book or are there books

2181
01:59:27,400 --> 01:59:28,900
that you love to recommend?

2182
01:59:28,900 --> 01:59:30,840
It can be related to our discussion today

2183
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:32,180
or completely unrelated.

2184
01:59:33,060 --> 01:59:33,900
I have a number.

2185
01:59:33,900 --> 01:59:38,900
I consume books at a high rate and not to sound,

2186
01:59:40,380 --> 01:59:42,300
I recommend yours.

2187
01:59:42,300 --> 01:59:43,460
And I'll tell you why.

2188
01:59:43,460 --> 01:59:48,060
The first one, One More Light to me is special

2189
01:59:48,060 --> 01:59:50,300
because I listened to it with my youngest daughter

2190
01:59:50,300 --> 01:59:52,220
and it opened up a dialogue with her

2191
01:59:52,220 --> 01:59:54,660
because she has a lot of the things,

2192
01:59:54,660 --> 01:59:56,980
we have the same, she's a goalie in lacrosse,

2193
01:59:56,980 --> 01:59:59,580
that was a goalie in hockey and that's a special thing.

2194
01:59:59,580 --> 02:00:02,720
And she has EMS tendencies.

2195
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,080
She's actually been on random calls with me,

2196
02:00:05,080 --> 02:00:07,380
like bike riding where she's like, daddy, I can help.

2197
02:00:07,380 --> 02:00:09,560
Like wants to be a part of that.

2198
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:11,380
And in the beginning part of that book,

2199
02:00:11,380 --> 02:00:14,640
you describe the fire academy and that experience.

2200
02:00:14,640 --> 02:00:17,060
And I've never talked about that with my kids.

2201
02:00:17,060 --> 02:00:17,980
They knew I was a fireman,

2202
02:00:17,980 --> 02:00:20,620
but I don't even let them watch ladder 49, right?

2203
02:00:20,620 --> 02:00:22,460
Cause I don't need them to see the ending.

2204
02:00:23,700 --> 02:00:25,940
And by the way, I won't ruin the ending

2205
02:00:25,940 --> 02:00:28,700
for anybody who's not seen that movie, but you should.

2206
02:00:29,740 --> 02:00:33,380
And so it allowed us to have a dialogue about it

2207
02:00:33,380 --> 02:00:36,500
in a way that was super cool and created a connection point.

2208
02:00:36,500 --> 02:00:38,260
And I've recommended that book to a ton of people.

2209
02:00:38,260 --> 02:00:40,740
I think it should be in every fire academy.

2210
02:00:40,740 --> 02:00:42,220
And again, I'm not saying that because it's you

2211
02:00:42,220 --> 02:00:44,060
and it's probably weird for you to have to sit here

2212
02:00:44,060 --> 02:00:46,820
and listen to me suggest your book, but I do.

2213
02:00:46,820 --> 02:00:49,820
Anyone that's got a first responder in their life,

2214
02:00:49,820 --> 02:00:51,220
I would urge them to read that book

2215
02:00:51,220 --> 02:00:54,300
cause it really helps to show the impact of it.

2216
02:00:54,300 --> 02:00:59,300
And your second book, fucker, has been,

2217
02:00:59,460 --> 02:01:01,620
and I shared this with you offline.

2218
02:01:01,620 --> 02:01:04,700
So that's why we're chuckling is I started to read it.

2219
02:01:04,700 --> 02:01:05,900
I got it right away, right?

2220
02:01:05,900 --> 02:01:07,340
And I bought multiple copies of it

2221
02:01:07,340 --> 02:01:10,180
cause I've got some friends to give away the book.

2222
02:01:11,220 --> 02:01:15,900
And it came, it fucked me up, man.

2223
02:01:15,900 --> 02:01:18,180
It really, and I don't wanna use the word trigger

2224
02:01:18,180 --> 02:01:19,380
cause I think it's overused,

2225
02:01:19,380 --> 02:01:23,000
but it really brought back some stuff for me that was hard.

2226
02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:27,080
And raw and it's an impact.

2227
02:01:27,080 --> 02:01:28,400
I mean, it's a heavy book, man.

2228
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:29,880
And I don't mean that in a bad way.

2229
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:33,500
Like it's important book in the fact that it had

2230
02:01:33,500 --> 02:01:36,460
that level of impact on me where I was like, whoa, dude.

2231
02:01:36,460 --> 02:01:38,540
Okay. And it came of course, at the same time

2232
02:01:38,540 --> 02:01:41,880
that things were happening with my kids leaving

2233
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:42,720
and all of that.

2234
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:44,360
So the timing of it was there.

2235
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:47,640
And so I do recommend both of those

2236
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:52,520
and I will get through the second one as well.

2237
02:01:52,520 --> 02:01:57,160
And it's important for me to see that I'm not nearly

2238
02:01:57,160 --> 02:01:58,720
as far along as I thought I was

2239
02:01:58,720 --> 02:02:01,520
cause that really brought back some stuff for me.

2240
02:02:01,520 --> 02:02:04,400
I recommend Tribe from Sebastian Younger,

2241
02:02:04,400 --> 02:02:07,800
especially for those of us in any sort of service

2242
02:02:07,800 --> 02:02:10,640
or have been in service because it helps to explain

2243
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:12,800
what we're truly missing when we leave it

2244
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:14,880
and the importance of acknowledging that.

2245
02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:19,440
I remember reading once that leaving the fire service

2246
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:22,680
is like having a death because you leave that family

2247
02:02:22,680 --> 02:02:24,920
and they move on that fire service continues

2248
02:02:24,920 --> 02:02:26,720
and you're not at the house anymore.

2249
02:02:26,720 --> 02:02:28,640
There's a lot to that.

2250
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:31,280
The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer.

2251
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:33,720
I've read that book probably 16 times.

2252
02:02:33,720 --> 02:02:36,400
I probably recommend that book the most out of anything

2253
02:02:36,400 --> 02:02:38,320
cause it applies to everybody.

2254
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:40,080
And it will change with you as you're going

2255
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:40,920
through your life.

2256
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:44,260
And it's well, not maybe a full operating system.

2257
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:49,080
It's a good one to remind us to get rid

2258
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:51,560
of as much as we can the illusion of control

2259
02:02:51,560 --> 02:02:53,880
and just be accepting to what's being.

2260
02:02:53,880 --> 02:02:56,760
And once you get into flow of life

2261
02:02:56,760 --> 02:02:58,680
and you're doing what you're supposed to be,

2262
02:02:58,680 --> 02:03:00,600
those things present themselves.

2263
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:03,160
Again, no coincidences, the universe will help you.

2264
02:03:04,160 --> 02:03:06,160
I'm a huge fan of that one.

2265
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:07,800
And I mentioned earlier Michael Pollan's book,

2266
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:09,360
How to Change Your Mind for those interested

2267
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:12,320
in psychedelics and a nice way to see it.

2268
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:15,920
And I'd prefer generally to read books.

2269
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:17,920
The author is that narrate and get it done.

2270
02:03:17,920 --> 02:03:20,480
Michael Pollan is one of those you are as well.

2271
02:03:20,480 --> 02:03:23,000
I was glad to hear that you're gonna narrate

2272
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:25,680
the second one, I thought you crushed the first one

2273
02:03:25,680 --> 02:03:28,540
even though you had to follow Josh Brolin's intro.

2274
02:03:29,840 --> 02:03:34,360
It made it, it's always better when the author narrates

2275
02:03:34,360 --> 02:03:37,080
and the author is capable of narrating.

2276
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:41,080
I could go on and on, but I'll stop there for books.

2277
02:03:41,080 --> 02:03:41,920
Beautiful.

2278
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:44,600
Well, I mean, you were the first person to tell me

2279
02:03:44,600 --> 02:03:48,200
that you had that visceral experience with Kinder.

2280
02:03:48,200 --> 02:03:50,280
And I think it was just a few days later,

2281
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:51,940
one of my guests, I won't say his name,

2282
02:03:51,940 --> 02:03:53,560
but one of my guests has been on the show already,

2283
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:56,440
a firefighter, he messaged me and said,

2284
02:03:56,440 --> 02:03:58,820
he got to about the same place that you did.

2285
02:03:59,780 --> 02:04:01,880
And it was again, that kind of mirror thing.

2286
02:04:01,880 --> 02:04:03,440
And obviously there's a lot more to the story

2287
02:04:03,440 --> 02:04:06,040
than just that, but it seems like those first few chapters

2288
02:04:06,040 --> 02:04:08,400
just really grab everyone.

2289
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:12,520
And he ended up having like a dream,

2290
02:04:12,520 --> 02:04:15,640
like nightmares almost and woke up in a cold sweat

2291
02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:17,540
and he realized that this was,

2292
02:04:17,540 --> 02:04:20,400
because it was unpacking things, he talked to his wife

2293
02:04:20,400 --> 02:04:23,360
and now he's going to counseling.

2294
02:04:23,360 --> 02:04:24,800
And then he's finished the book since,

2295
02:04:24,800 --> 02:04:28,000
and the whole point is the book is actually about hope.

2296
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:30,040
It's about post-traumatic growth ultimately.

2297
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:34,360
But I literally, when he messaged me the second part of it,

2298
02:04:34,360 --> 02:04:35,640
I cried.

2299
02:04:35,640 --> 02:04:38,800
I'm like, this is why I wrote this book.

2300
02:04:38,800 --> 02:04:40,500
I mean, obviously there's so much within me

2301
02:04:40,500 --> 02:04:41,480
that I wanna get out there,

2302
02:04:41,480 --> 02:04:45,240
but ultimately it's just to tell that raw story

2303
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:49,320
and give people hope that it's not a dead end,

2304
02:04:49,320 --> 02:04:50,320
that there is a way out.

2305
02:04:50,320 --> 02:04:52,080
This whatever has happened to you,

2306
02:04:52,080 --> 02:04:53,980
whether it's been in uniform, whether it was prior,

2307
02:04:53,980 --> 02:04:56,240
whether it was two or three generations prior,

2308
02:04:56,240 --> 02:04:57,720
whatever it was.

2309
02:04:57,720 --> 02:05:00,120
And so, I mean, yeah, I was moved to tears

2310
02:05:00,120 --> 02:05:02,120
because I'm like all that work,

2311
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:04,320
because you write a book, you have no fucking idea

2312
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:05,520
if people are gonna connect.

2313
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:07,400
You just put a bunch of words on a piece of paper.

2314
02:05:07,400 --> 02:05:11,620
But so yeah, between you and the other firefighter,

2315
02:05:12,760 --> 02:05:14,200
it's very, very early days yet,

2316
02:05:14,200 --> 02:05:18,600
but I mean, I'm just so, so blown away

2317
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:21,800
that it hit as hard as I wanted it to hit

2318
02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:23,000
because you get one shot.

2319
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,940
You know, so thank you for telling me

2320
02:05:25,940 --> 02:05:28,600
and even trusting me to read the second one.

2321
02:05:29,640 --> 02:05:32,720
Well, I'll tell you, dude, that's such a rare thing.

2322
02:05:32,720 --> 02:05:34,320
I mean, let's just take a second with that.

2323
02:05:34,320 --> 02:05:36,440
Let's not gloss over too quickly.

2324
02:05:36,440 --> 02:05:38,180
Let's just look at what that takes

2325
02:05:38,180 --> 02:05:41,060
to be able to encapsulate in an act.

2326
02:05:41,060 --> 02:05:46,060
And just the art of writing alone is,

2327
02:05:48,180 --> 02:05:51,780
if folks haven't done writing that way,

2328
02:05:51,780 --> 02:05:55,140
and I've done just a little of it, it's such a skillset.

2329
02:05:55,140 --> 02:06:00,140
And it's true art to be able to accurately portray something

2330
02:06:01,060 --> 02:06:04,140
that nuanced and that deep and powerful and impactful

2331
02:06:04,140 --> 02:06:07,580
in a way that anybody that's been through that

2332
02:06:07,580 --> 02:06:10,020
immediately has, as you described,

2333
02:06:10,020 --> 02:06:13,760
and you're fucking right on, is a visceral reaction to it.

2334
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:18,760
The power of that and the rareness of, yeah,

2335
02:06:19,740 --> 02:06:22,020
it's good on you, man,

2336
02:06:22,020 --> 02:06:27,020
because that is an incredibly powerful and rare thing.

2337
02:06:28,840 --> 02:06:32,460
Yeah, I can't even imagine what that must feel like.

2338
02:06:32,460 --> 02:06:35,540
I mean, it was, like I said, I was moved to tears.

2339
02:06:35,540 --> 02:06:37,620
And then the next step, and I've talked about this

2340
02:06:37,620 --> 02:06:40,160
to you and other people on the show as well,

2341
02:06:40,160 --> 02:06:42,140
but the next step is now streaming.

2342
02:06:42,140 --> 02:06:45,820
All right, now imagine if I can get that from a book,

2343
02:06:45,820 --> 02:06:47,740
what would it be with great acting

2344
02:06:47,740 --> 02:06:50,100
and the music in the background and flashbacks

2345
02:06:50,100 --> 02:06:52,500
to keep you kind of current as the story progresses?

2346
02:06:52,500 --> 02:06:56,100
And so, I just watched the Beekeeper with Jason Statham

2347
02:06:56,100 --> 02:06:58,260
and it was amazing because I'm watching it going,

2348
02:06:58,260 --> 02:07:01,260
if this shit could get made, then-

2349
02:07:01,260 --> 02:07:03,240
I watched the movie too and I was like,

2350
02:07:03,240 --> 02:07:05,960
well, this is about as cookie cutter as you can get.

2351
02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:09,200
And most people seem to phone in their performances

2352
02:07:09,200 --> 02:07:11,520
taking nothing away from that genre,

2353
02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:15,020
but boy, that's some pretty thin, that's not art.

2354
02:07:15,020 --> 02:07:16,380
Yeah, and I like Jason Statham a lot.

2355
02:07:16,380 --> 02:07:17,220
I'd love to get him on here.

2356
02:07:17,220 --> 02:07:18,060
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I do too.

2357
02:07:18,060 --> 02:07:21,980
And that guy has found, it's like if somebody comes on,

2358
02:07:21,980 --> 02:07:23,620
if you're selling cars and they want a red car,

2359
02:07:23,620 --> 02:07:25,380
you fucking sell them a red car.

2360
02:07:25,380 --> 02:07:28,940
He's found the thing that works for him to do.

2361
02:07:28,940 --> 02:07:32,420
And it serves its purpose, which I watched it

2362
02:07:32,420 --> 02:07:35,580
because I wanted just to take a break from everything.

2363
02:07:35,580 --> 02:07:36,940
And while I'm watching the Beekeeper,

2364
02:07:36,940 --> 02:07:38,800
I'm not trying to solve the world's problems

2365
02:07:38,800 --> 02:07:40,340
or any of my problems.

2366
02:07:40,340 --> 02:07:42,540
I'm simply taking a break from things for a while

2367
02:07:42,540 --> 02:07:43,560
and there's value in that.

2368
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:46,740
So I'm not certainly taking away from him doing that,

2369
02:07:46,740 --> 02:07:50,740
but from the difference between entertainment

2370
02:07:50,740 --> 02:07:53,540
and the messaging and the power and the growth

2371
02:07:53,540 --> 02:07:58,140
that can come from your topic and your material,

2372
02:07:58,140 --> 02:07:59,060
those are different animals.

2373
02:07:59,060 --> 02:08:00,740
And thankfully, we live in a world

2374
02:08:00,740 --> 02:08:02,900
where we could have that spectrum.

2375
02:08:02,900 --> 02:08:04,900
Doesn't all have to be one nor the other.

2376
02:08:04,900 --> 02:08:06,380
We're allowed to have that.

2377
02:08:06,380 --> 02:08:08,260
And we've talked offline again,

2378
02:08:10,460 --> 02:08:12,260
I actually bought a copy of your book

2379
02:08:12,260 --> 02:08:16,140
to give to a person that might be able to offer some help

2380
02:08:16,140 --> 02:08:20,660
or guidance or insight into taking it into the next medium.

2381
02:08:20,660 --> 02:08:23,420
And I will see him soon.

2382
02:08:23,420 --> 02:08:25,920
And in fact, his copy is right there.

2383
02:08:25,920 --> 02:08:29,120
Fantastic, I need to get him on the show too, don't I?

2384
02:08:29,120 --> 02:08:33,120
You do actually, I'm gonna do the intro to the two of you.

2385
02:08:33,120 --> 02:08:35,560
And there's another guy I think you should talk to,

2386
02:08:35,560 --> 02:08:38,360
Rob Garnett, who's got One More Wave,

2387
02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:42,080
a great veteran nonprofit.

2388
02:08:42,080 --> 02:08:44,360
I think Rob was a SEAL as well.

2389
02:08:44,360 --> 02:08:46,880
He's got a documentary out by the same name

2390
02:08:46,880 --> 02:08:48,840
and I'm not to give it away,

2391
02:08:48,840 --> 02:08:51,880
but he decided, fuck it, I'm just gonna kill myself,

2392
02:08:51,880 --> 02:08:53,680
but let me go catch One More Wave

2393
02:08:53,680 --> 02:08:56,960
and went surfing and decided, you know what,

2394
02:08:56,960 --> 02:08:59,080
perhaps I shouldn't just eat a bullet.

2395
02:08:59,080 --> 02:09:02,480
And he's taken that and grown it into something pretty rad.

2396
02:09:02,480 --> 02:09:04,400
And Rob and I got introduced through the world

2397
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:05,260
as you tend to.

2398
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:09,160
And I watched a movie by Jeremy Jones

2399
02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:11,920
where he talks about surfing and snowboarding.

2400
02:09:11,920 --> 02:09:14,760
And I reached out to Rob and said, hey dude,

2401
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:17,800
snowboarding is just like surfing, bro.

2402
02:09:17,800 --> 02:09:20,320
We should look to expand what you're offering

2403
02:09:20,320 --> 02:09:23,280
through surfing to include some snowboarding.

2404
02:09:23,280 --> 02:09:25,560
So I'm hoping Rob and I can continue

2405
02:09:25,560 --> 02:09:26,760
because I've seen the benefit of it here

2406
02:09:26,760 --> 02:09:29,140
when we did Military to the Mountains

2407
02:09:29,140 --> 02:09:30,880
and it's all I met Shay,

2408
02:09:30,880 --> 02:09:33,680
which I know you're gonna have on the show as well.

2409
02:09:33,680 --> 02:09:36,960
And he's, make sure you leave enough time for that dude.

2410
02:09:38,320 --> 02:09:39,160
He's got-

2411
02:09:39,160 --> 02:09:39,980
He definitely will.

2412
02:09:39,980 --> 02:09:42,080
He can hit, boy, he can bring it.

2413
02:09:42,080 --> 02:09:44,800
Shay, Sugar Shay as we like to call him.

2414
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,480
Yeah, that guy's got, that guy could, he,

2415
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:50,720
fuck dude, that guy is something else.

2416
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:52,620
I'm looking forward to having him on,

2417
02:09:52,620 --> 02:09:55,120
but yeah, I'll get to,

2418
02:09:55,120 --> 02:09:57,600
I'll connect you with Rob and then Andy Sugarman

2419
02:09:57,600 --> 02:09:59,280
like we've talked about before.

2420
02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:01,640
Andy would be a great guy to have on the show as well.

2421
02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:02,520
Brilliant.

2422
02:10:02,520 --> 02:10:03,340
It's interesting.

2423
02:10:03,340 --> 02:10:05,940
I had a group of British police officers

2424
02:10:05,940 --> 02:10:08,320
that have a nonprofit called SurfWell

2425
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:10,140
and they take cops surfing.

2426
02:10:10,140 --> 02:10:12,120
And then I think they're in the Cornwall area.

2427
02:10:12,120 --> 02:10:14,660
So the Southwest is where we have a lot of our surf.

2428
02:10:14,660 --> 02:10:16,640
And again, super therapeutic.

2429
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:20,160
And then I've had Tom Hewitt, English surfer,

2430
02:10:20,160 --> 02:10:21,960
who moved to, I think it's Durban,

2431
02:10:21,960 --> 02:10:24,680
but anyway, South Africa and started a thing called

2432
02:10:24,680 --> 02:10:26,320
Surfers Not Street Children.

2433
02:10:26,320 --> 02:10:28,720
And all these orphans that they had,

2434
02:10:28,720 --> 02:10:30,240
they would teach them how to swim.

2435
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:32,340
They would, I've said this on a few times,

2436
02:10:32,340 --> 02:10:35,120
but there were a lot of stories of these monsters

2437
02:10:35,120 --> 02:10:36,840
in the ocean, which there are in South Africa,

2438
02:10:36,840 --> 02:10:37,680
but I think it was also used.

2439
02:10:37,680 --> 02:10:38,960
True, they're called great whites.

2440
02:10:38,960 --> 02:10:41,720
Yeah, I think it was also used to keep certain groups

2441
02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:44,640
off the beach, back in the apartheid days.

2442
02:10:44,640 --> 02:10:45,840
So they're getting their confidence,

2443
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:48,820
they're teaching them how to swim and then they're surfing.

2444
02:10:48,820 --> 02:10:50,760
And what was amazing is not only do you have

2445
02:10:50,760 --> 02:10:55,760
the whole sea, sand, ocean, the whole outside experience,

2446
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:57,720
but then when they were tired,

2447
02:10:58,680 --> 02:11:00,560
and they learned these new skills

2448
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:02,420
and had this kind of comradery,

2449
02:11:02,420 --> 02:11:05,360
they'd sit on the beach and then they would do the counseling.

2450
02:11:05,360 --> 02:11:07,760
So I've had a couple of episodes where surfing

2451
02:11:07,760 --> 02:11:09,500
has been incredibly powerful.

2452
02:11:10,400 --> 02:11:11,600
You know what you gotta do, man.

2453
02:11:11,600 --> 02:11:14,360
And because I like to get connected

2454
02:11:14,360 --> 02:11:17,760
into other first responder veteran groups

2455
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:21,720
across the oceans and I don't see

2456
02:11:21,720 --> 02:11:24,500
why psychedelic medicine groups is a US thing.

2457
02:11:24,500 --> 02:11:26,200
And it probably isn't, I'm sure they're probably

2458
02:11:26,200 --> 02:11:29,120
doing their own, but why not cross populate that

2459
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:31,320
and even bring it back to the earlier part

2460
02:11:31,320 --> 02:11:33,360
of our conversation where if you travel

2461
02:11:33,360 --> 02:11:35,360
and you break down those barriers of,

2462
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:40,640
I meant to bring this up because you made the comment

2463
02:11:40,640 --> 02:11:42,520
of it was actually a policeman in Dubai

2464
02:11:42,520 --> 02:11:44,920
that was saving that cat is one of the things

2465
02:11:44,920 --> 02:11:48,320
I've taught my children is when you travel,

2466
02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:50,640
you can always find refuge at a firehouse

2467
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:52,800
in anywhere in the fucking world.

2468
02:11:52,800 --> 02:11:55,440
If you're in trouble, you need a thing,

2469
02:11:55,440 --> 02:11:57,640
you go to a firehouse and if you have to,

2470
02:11:57,640 --> 02:11:59,800
you simply tell them your dad was a firefighter

2471
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:01,360
and you will be welcomed in.

2472
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:03,680
And I said you'd be welcomed in and cared for,

2473
02:12:03,680 --> 02:12:05,720
I'm pretty sure no matter what.

2474
02:12:05,720 --> 02:12:08,520
But if you need to play the daddy firefighter card,

2475
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:10,660
that is an absolute guarantee.

2476
02:12:10,660 --> 02:12:13,280
And it goes back to that, we're all the same.

2477
02:12:13,280 --> 02:12:16,360
That's why you'll have your responders in every community.

2478
02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:18,480
As soon as you had fire, you had a firefighter.

2479
02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:21,760
Like it was immediate, like you go back to the guys

2480
02:12:21,760 --> 02:12:26,120
in the, in Ben Franklin's days and they had buckets

2481
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:28,520
that they had on their horses.

2482
02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:31,640
And of course those buckets, they would dress up

2483
02:12:31,640 --> 02:12:34,040
because women like firefighters,

2484
02:12:34,040 --> 02:12:36,700
even ones from colonial days, I suspect.

2485
02:12:38,240 --> 02:12:41,240
Not to get off, but yeah, I'd like to talk to you

2486
02:12:41,240 --> 02:12:43,200
about that offline because I think you have

2487
02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:45,160
connections into people that I don't

2488
02:12:45,160 --> 02:12:46,840
and it'd be interesting to have a conversation

2489
02:12:46,840 --> 02:12:49,680
and see if there's anything to kind of be done

2490
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:50,680
around that, you know what I mean?

2491
02:12:50,680 --> 02:12:53,480
Like it's not just an American thing, I wouldn't think.

2492
02:12:53,480 --> 02:12:55,000
Yeah, no, I agree.

2493
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:59,000
Because again, the going back to what's forced to be illicit,

2494
02:12:59,000 --> 02:13:01,840
most countries have that, the prisons have that

2495
02:13:01,840 --> 02:13:02,680
for crying out loud.

2496
02:13:02,680 --> 02:13:06,360
So clearly if it's used in a negative way at the moment,

2497
02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:09,440
if we can especially force this conversation

2498
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:12,040
in a positive light and maybe even remove

2499
02:13:12,040 --> 02:13:14,240
some of these ridiculous prohibition laws,

2500
02:13:14,240 --> 02:13:16,040
now all of a sudden you've opened the world

2501
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:18,880
and country by country and some might be already ahead of us

2502
02:13:18,880 --> 02:13:21,160
and maybe they're the blueprint that we should be using.

2503
02:13:21,160 --> 02:13:22,000
So absolutely.

2504
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:23,400
Excellent, I didn't think about it that way.

2505
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:24,880
And you mentioned the word prisons.

2506
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:26,880
When you have Andy Sugarman on,

2507
02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:31,880
make sure you ask him about his experience in prison work.

2508
02:13:31,920 --> 02:13:36,080
He and his wife Sarah had an unbelievably powerful

2509
02:13:36,080 --> 02:13:40,080
experience working with inmates.

2510
02:13:40,080 --> 02:13:43,440
And yeah, please make sure, because that is,

2511
02:13:45,320 --> 02:13:47,520
one, I didn't know that was a thing

2512
02:13:47,520 --> 02:13:49,120
in the way he described it was.

2513
02:13:50,200 --> 02:13:52,840
I think there's a show about it called The Work.

2514
02:13:52,840 --> 02:13:55,400
I don't wanna get that wrong, because it's not my area,

2515
02:13:55,400 --> 02:13:58,800
but be sure to have Andy share that with your listeners.

2516
02:13:58,800 --> 02:14:00,000
Absolutely.

2517
02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:01,640
All right, well then for people listening,

2518
02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:05,280
if they wanna reach out to you, just connect on social media,

2519
02:14:05,280 --> 02:14:07,760
whatever it is, where are the best places?

2520
02:14:07,760 --> 02:14:10,680
I would say my LinkedIn profile is probably the easiest.

2521
02:14:10,680 --> 02:14:13,200
It'll give you a pretty good show of what I'm about.

2522
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:15,720
Again, I'm pretty open about my work

2523
02:14:15,720 --> 02:14:16,880
in psychedelic medicines.

2524
02:14:16,880 --> 02:14:21,600
And so your listeners are clear, I'm not a facilitator.

2525
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:26,200
I don't organize groups, I don't organize trips.

2526
02:14:26,200 --> 02:14:29,360
I happen to have been one of the founders of our group.

2527
02:14:29,360 --> 02:14:30,960
Randomly, it just happened to be me.

2528
02:14:30,960 --> 02:14:32,480
It wasn't because of me.

2529
02:14:32,480 --> 02:14:35,880
And I guess you put me more on the consumer side of it.

2530
02:14:35,880 --> 02:14:39,360
And so the best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn,

2531
02:14:39,360 --> 02:14:42,320
but understand my limitations relative to that.

2532
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:46,400
I mean, I'm giving folks my experience,

2533
02:14:46,400 --> 02:14:47,680
things that I would suggest

2534
02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:49,800
to try to recreate a positive experience,

2535
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:53,800
but I don't have access to medicines.

2536
02:14:53,800 --> 02:14:58,080
I don't have access to lists of facilitators.

2537
02:14:58,080 --> 02:14:59,920
That would be something folks would have to source

2538
02:14:59,920 --> 02:15:00,760
on their own.

2539
02:15:00,760 --> 02:15:03,560
But if you're gonna go through that and you'll find them,

2540
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:06,920
there's facilitators in every area.

2541
02:15:07,760 --> 02:15:09,560
And I think there's a gentleman,

2542
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:11,040
and I don't wanna say his name.

2543
02:15:11,040 --> 02:15:13,880
If I can get this from him and it's okay,

2544
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:17,280
I believe they're beginning to coalesce facilitators

2545
02:15:17,280 --> 02:15:19,840
in a group and I'll check in with him.

2546
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:22,000
He might be someone you wanna have on the show as well.

2547
02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:24,400
But again, I don't wanna say his name

2548
02:15:24,400 --> 02:15:27,640
without his permission, but sorry, man,

2549
02:15:27,640 --> 02:15:29,480
I gave you more than just your simple,

2550
02:15:29,480 --> 02:15:31,240
hey dude, LinkedIn's fine.

2551
02:15:31,240 --> 02:15:33,680
No, no, but that's better, especially like you said,

2552
02:15:33,680 --> 02:15:36,320
underlining what you do and what you don't.

2553
02:15:36,320 --> 02:15:38,000
Well, I wanna say thank you so much.

2554
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:40,280
It's been not only an amazing conversation

2555
02:15:40,280 --> 02:15:42,360
kind of exploring your journey

2556
02:15:42,360 --> 02:15:44,800
and some of the unique positions that you've held,

2557
02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:47,080
but also just really unpacking

2558
02:15:47,080 --> 02:15:50,400
the more nuanced conversation on the psychedelic side,

2559
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:53,720
because the hope that I have seen,

2560
02:15:53,720 --> 02:15:57,280
the lives saved that I've witnessed with my own eyes,

2561
02:15:57,280 --> 02:15:59,800
with this as an option in the toolbox,

2562
02:15:59,800 --> 02:16:01,040
this isn't the magic pill,

2563
02:16:01,040 --> 02:16:02,720
it's not gonna work for everyone.

2564
02:16:02,720 --> 02:16:05,080
To me, it's like spirituality.

2565
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:06,600
You gotta find what works from you

2566
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:08,280
and it might be all this one religion

2567
02:16:08,280 --> 02:16:11,200
or it might be pure universe and nature

2568
02:16:11,200 --> 02:16:14,760
or whatever it is, but every single one of us is unique.

2569
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:18,760
So understanding that that toolbox has these things

2570
02:16:18,760 --> 02:16:21,280
that we talked about in it as well,

2571
02:16:21,280 --> 02:16:23,560
I think puts so much hope into this conversation,

2572
02:16:23,560 --> 02:16:24,720
especially people that have tried.

2573
02:16:24,720 --> 02:16:28,400
And one of the lives saved was a guy that really was trying.

2574
02:16:28,400 --> 02:16:32,120
He did ketamine, he did all kinds of talk therapy, EMDR,

2575
02:16:32,120 --> 02:16:33,080
and it wasn't working,

2576
02:16:33,080 --> 02:16:34,000
but he did the ketamine

2577
02:16:34,000 --> 02:16:37,160
without any kind of person leading him through.

2578
02:16:37,160 --> 02:16:39,640
He did the first day of ayahuasca, nothing.

2579
02:16:39,640 --> 02:16:41,280
Just kind of resisted the medicine.

2580
02:16:41,280 --> 02:16:43,760
The second day, he had such a breakthrough

2581
02:16:43,760 --> 02:16:46,880
that he described it to me as more powerful,

2582
02:16:46,880 --> 02:16:49,200
even than the birth of his own children.

2583
02:16:49,200 --> 02:16:50,240
And it saved his life.

2584
02:16:50,240 --> 02:16:52,160
So I think that you coming on

2585
02:16:52,160 --> 02:16:55,080
and really storytelling these nuances

2586
02:16:55,080 --> 02:16:56,400
has been so, so important.

2587
02:16:56,400 --> 02:16:58,000
So I wanna thank you so, so much

2588
02:16:58,000 --> 02:16:59,560
for being so generous with your time

2589
02:16:59,560 --> 02:17:02,320
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

2590
02:17:02,320 --> 02:17:05,200
Well, listen, man, thank you for your kind words.

2591
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:09,200
And I'm glad that it was seen that way.

2592
02:17:09,200 --> 02:17:11,400
It's always delicate when you're,

2593
02:17:12,720 --> 02:17:14,680
well, there's no like a convert, right?

2594
02:17:14,680 --> 02:17:17,440
Like you don't wanna overdo, over push.

2595
02:17:17,440 --> 02:17:20,840
And so you gave, and to make your platform available

2596
02:17:20,840 --> 02:17:23,240
to have these just open discussions about it

2597
02:17:23,240 --> 02:17:26,000
and showing people they can run the risk

2598
02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:28,160
of getting better in their own way.

2599
02:17:28,160 --> 02:17:30,360
So thank you for giving me that opportunity.

2600
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:32,960
And you make, this is an easy conversation, man.

2601
02:17:32,960 --> 02:17:34,320
This is like any other conversation

2602
02:17:34,320 --> 02:17:35,800
that you and I tend to have

2603
02:17:35,800 --> 02:17:37,240
is that just happens to be recorded

2604
02:17:37,240 --> 02:17:38,800
for others to be aware of.

2605
02:17:38,800 --> 02:17:41,720
And so thanks for doing what you do

2606
02:17:41,720 --> 02:17:43,600
because it's a force multiplier.

2607
02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:45,400
So yeah, man, thanks for having me.

2608
02:17:45,400 --> 02:17:56,440
Had a great round and thanks for joining us.

2609
02:17:56,440 --> 02:17:57,960
Thanks for joining us.

2610
02:17:57,960 --> 02:18:00,640
Have a great friday.

2611
02:18:00,640 --> 02:18:02,000
Thanks for joining us.

2612
02:18:02,000 --> 02:18:03,280
And have a great weekend.

2613
02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:04,080
Thanks for having me.

2614
02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:06,480
Thanks for ч 차돉ати,

2615
02:18:06,480 --> 02:18:08,040
I think this is the covering for today.

2616
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:09,280
Yes, yes, thanks for joining us, bye.

2617
02:18:09,280 --> 02:18:10,000
Bye.

2618
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:10,560
Take care.

2619
02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:11,560
Thanks for joining us.

2620
02:18:11,600 --> 02:18:13,520
And thank you for joining us today.

2621
02:18:13,520 --> 02:18:15,040
I'm getting nervous here,