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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week I have an unusual episode for you.

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It is actually the recording of the live Q&A that I hosted at the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, along with the Florida Firefighter Health and Safety Collaborative in Kissimmee, Florida.

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On the panel was Joel Billings, who is a researcher into sleep and shifts in the fire service.

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Dixon Phillips, president of Pasco County, who are in the process of going to the 2472.

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Chief Hugh Bruder, chief of Boynton Beach Fire, and they went to the 2472 almost two years ago.

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And Chief Sean Hillhouse, who is a deputy fire chief of Gainesville Fire Rescue, who recently went to the 2472.

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So I posed multiple questions that I know people wanted answered.

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How did they afford it? What was the need in the first place? What about the recruitment crisis? What have you seen since you've gone to it?

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And it was incredibly powerful hearing all of these different voices from these different positions.

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There was an audience Q&A at the end, but I'm not allowed to air that because the people asking the questions weren't aware that it was going to be shared.

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So the Florida Fire Chiefs Association has asked me to keep that part out.

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So I hope this serves as an incredible resource for anyone else who's in the process of considering it and trying to make this proactive change in their own fire department.

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Before we get to the conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce the 24 72 Q&A. Enjoy.

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All right. Well, I want to thank you all first for attending. I know the title is a little dubious as to what this is going to be about.

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I started my podcast. I'm going to do introductions for every single person. So I'll start with me.

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I was a firefighter for 14 years, 10 years into my career, as I'm sure a lot of people can relate to.

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I started going to funerals and so started a podcast to find the experts in all kinds of topics and bring them to everyone who needs the solutions.

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You know, every problem has an answer as a solution.

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When I dove into this conversation, obviously the shift work was a big element.

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And I had neuroscientists and sleep medicine experts from the military.

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And this glaring reality came out as, you know, shifts that we do, are they healthy, the unhealthy, which is the right one.

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So without loading it too much, this is what we're going to be unpacking is the way that we've always done it.

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Is it working or is there a progressive way that we can change that will forge physical and mental health recruitment and save money?

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So, Joel, if you want to give your background on it for people that weren't in the last class.

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Sure. Joel Billings. I'm an assistant professor at Embry-Riddle Aernockle University,

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program chair for the Bachelor of Science in Emergency Services undergrad program.

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And my research focuses on sleep, shift schedules and learning systems for firefighters.

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Chief. Hi, everybody. Hugh Bruder. I am a 45 year fire service veteran.

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I got my start in the U.S. Air Force in the post Vietnam era.

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I retired from Miami Dade Fire Rescue in 2015 and I couldn't handle playing so much golf and fishing.

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So I decided that I wanted to go back and I am presently the fire chief at Pointon Beach Fire Rescue.

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Sean Hillhouse. I'm with Gainesville Fire Rescue.

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Been with them for 22 years and this year we actually moved to the 2472 schedule.

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Dixon Phillips. I've been with Passive County Fire Rescue for nine years.

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I was recently elected president of Local 4420 and was involved in our negotiations for our 2472 schedule.

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I'm here to start in 2026.

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All right. So I want to play devil's advocate and ask a few questions that I know everyone would want to ask.

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And then as we progress through to the end, we can open up to the floor and ask some more questions.

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The first one I want to put to the panel is the three gentlemen to the far left, you have moved to a 2472.

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So let's start with what is the problem. We'll start with you, Joel, from the research point of view.

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from the physical health, mental health,

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financial recruitment, from a researcher's point of view,

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what have you been exposed to as the issue

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in the fire service?

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In relation to 2472, that's one area that has

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virtually no research so far.

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That's obviously, we're trying to change that,

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especially with a growing number of departments

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that are considering it, and the potential benefits

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that it could have with the just 24 hour shift.

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And if they are overtime or swapping shifts,

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it would be a 48 hour schedule

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without really reducing the recovery time.

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So there's a lot of questions that are open

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in that particular schedule.

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But with mental health and,

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I'm not sure what other one you mentioned.

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All the health.

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Oh, all the health.

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Shift schedules are an interesting and complex system

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in the fire service.

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So there is not really one best schedule.

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I've learned, or come to learn that through a variety of ways.

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But it's not gonna be what's the best schedule out there.

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It's gonna be what's the best schedule

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for your particular department.

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And it may be what's the best schedule

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for your particular station within your department.

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All right, Hugh, as far as the issue,

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before you decided to make the change,

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what were you seeing in all the elements

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that initiated the discussion to change the shift schedule?

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Well, I think it's a very interesting discussion

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because this really shouldn't just be

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about shift schedules, right?

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It's not just about the 2472s or the 4896s.

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That's why we're all here today.

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Because we're concerned about the mental health

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and wellbeing and safety of the members

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who are out there serving the public.

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So if you look at it from a large perspective,

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shift schedule changes are but one

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of the many, many, many things

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as chief officers we have to look at.

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And of course, as a fire chief,

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it's my responsibility to carry that forward,

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not only within my membership, but how do I achieve that?

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So in looking at this big picture

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and looking at what we see right now

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throughout the fire services,

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a lot of fire departments are having a very difficult time

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hiring and maintaining firefighter paramedics.

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So I'm very proud to say we're 100% paramedic

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fire department, and that's taken us several years

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to get to that point.

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That's just an ancillary benefit to what we're doing.

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But the bigger picture is you have to look

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at every one of these things we're talking about,

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whether it's equipment, whether it's personnel,

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whether it's your sleep schedule,

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whether it's any of these things we look at,

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mental health and behavioral health.

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These are but cogs on this wheel.

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And as chiefs, how do we facilitate that?

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So the only way we're gonna be able to facilitate that

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is by being able to stand up at the dais

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within your community, within your municipality,

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to be able to dialogue with your elected officials

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and with the individuals who are above you

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at a much higher pay grade who are non-uniform wearing.

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You know, as they say, everyone that wears a uniform

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answers to a civilian, well, we do.

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But my job as the fire chief is to not only run

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the fire department, not only create the best environment

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for the members within my department,

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but how do I sustain that department

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for many, many years in the future?

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So I believe there's many factors that we looked at

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with Boynton Beach Fire Rescue to do what I call

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turn Boynton Beach into a destination fire department.

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And when we put out for job hires,

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we have more than we need.

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We get hundreds of applicants for these positions.

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So I know now we're doing a good job

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at going out there and getting them

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because we've laid all these things out there.

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But at the essence, at the core of anything that we do,

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it's communication and it's understanding

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and it's educating not only the public,

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but it's educating your bosses

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and it's educating the elected officials.

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So how do we do that?

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We do that through an understanding of how we plan.

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We must plan for the future.

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So strategic planning is an extremely important part

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of this large process.

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So as I go into strategic planning over the next three,

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five, seven or 10 years, I can begin to look at this.

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Let me give you a quick example

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and then obviously I'll turn it on.

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I'll turn it over.

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So in looking at your shift schedule change,

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you have to say, well, what am I at now?

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If I have no Kelly days and I'm at a 56 hour work week,

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you're not gonna go to 24 72

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unless you have a massive influx of cash.

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It's gonna be very difficult for you to do that.

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If you're working a 24 48 schedule now

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and you have a Kelly day,

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that's a lot more easy to achieve

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because your Kelly day is your largest leave liability.

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So at that point, you are able to calculate

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how many firefighters I need based on the fact

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that now I'm eliminating the Kelly day.

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So in Boynton Beach with five stations

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and 160 people in operations, we had to hire 21 people,

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not what would normally have been about 38 people.

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And so within that, there are other considerations.

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How much gear do you need?

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Do you have a fourth locker in each of your stations?

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So there's a tremendous amount of ancillary expenses

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that are involved in this process.

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But again, you have to be able to educate.

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You're never gonna get,

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you're not even being able to get a third person

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on your rescue truck if you're running two person rescues.

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If you can't communicate the needs

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to your elected officials as to what we need,

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and that's through proper strategic planning

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where we help these individuals understand

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that public safety should be the number one concern

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of any municipality in this country,

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if not the world.

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So I'll leave it at that

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and wait till I have another opportunity.

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So our two biggest problems that we were trying to address

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were safety and retention.

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And one of the questions that we asked ourselves is,

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how many hours continuously is it safe for employees to work?

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And even though we were on a 24, 48 schedule

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with mandatory overtime,

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that's not what everybody was working.

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So routinely people were working 48 to 72 hours straight,

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you throw one trade in there,

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now we're up at 96.

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And as a chief officer,

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can I really say that that's safe?

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And the answer was no.

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So that really got us started with

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what we could do to change that.

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And the other thing is retention.

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How do we make the department attractive

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to get new recruits in there?

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And we started by simply asking,

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and our younger firefighters,

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and right now our department's 75% is under the age of 30.

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So we have a very young fire department.

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We asked them, what's important?

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Would you like us to improve the retirement,

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improve the pay?

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And surprising to me,

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because I'm not from that generation,

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what they said was, we want more time off.

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So that's where we started,

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is how can we address the safety factor

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and make the job what the employee was looking for?

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I would say the same for us in Pasco County.

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We had a big recruitment and retention problem.

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Fiscal year 22 and 23,

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we lost 162 firefighters from our agency.

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Fiscal year 22 had 80,000 hours of mandatory overtime.

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Fiscal year 23 was 45,000.

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We're talking $8.6 million in those two years,

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just in overtime costs.

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On top of the health aspect, the mental health aspect.

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And we had a lot of our members,

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the biggest thing also was more time off.

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Went from a 56 hour work week,

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transitioned to a six week in 2017,

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00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,920
knowing that the ultimate goal was to get to a three week,

239
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,560
really didn't have any numbers or other departments

240
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,240
that we were talking to that had 2472s.

241
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,440
But we knew that we had to put that stepping stone in place

242
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,800
for us to get down to what we were going for.

243
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,640
Originally it was a three week Kelly Day.

244
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,880
Since we have agreed on our contract going to 2472s,

245
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,440
we've lost six, six firefighters.

246
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,920
Most of them moved out of state.

247
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,560
This last new hire class that starts next week,

248
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,840
we had 259 applicants for 24 seats.

249
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:01,600
We went from an agency three years ago

250
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,440
that we weren't able to be selective.

251
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,040
Basically, if you had a pulse and you came to the interview,

252
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,840
you receive a job.

253
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,240
Now we can truly be selective.

254
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,200
And of those 24 new hires,

255
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,480
20 of them are coming from other agencies.

256
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,240
So it definitely changed the culture

257
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,800
and it hasn't even started yet.

258
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:22,920
I wanna ask Joel a question.

259
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,960
You did an entire presentation just before this.

260
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,200
We had a conversation on the podcast

261
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,160
and you kind of unpacked the study

262
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,960
that you did on the 4896.

263
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,080
Talk to me about the kind of department

264
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,560
that that would be applicable to

265
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,560
and any warnings you have of that data being interpreted by,

266
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,960
for example, a very busy inner city department.

267
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,280
Yeah, so for the department that switched

268
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,280
from the 2448 to the 4896,

269
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,800
they had department-wide about 5,000 calls annually,

270
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,720
four stations and about 80 firefighters.

271
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,680
So in Oklahoma, that's considered

272
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,640
a medium-sized department.

273
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:08,160
Calls during the day per individual was about 1.2.

274
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,680
And then calls at night was about 1.2,

275
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:12,920
a little bit less than 1.

276
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,960
So for that particular sample,

277
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,000
they weren't very busy at night.

278
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,880
And so the question,

279
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,120
and we have a study that's about to start looking at

280
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,680
call burden and sleep and how,

281
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,680
or what is an ideal number?

282
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,320
Maybe it's a formula or it's a specific number of,

283
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,920
okay, this scheduling system or this duration of work

284
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,920
is not safe for a particular firefighter.

285
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,880
Obviously that's gonna be very personalized

286
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,920
to someone who can manage or handle that particular load

287
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,920
versus someone that maybe can't handle it.

288
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,440
And then the one, if I remember rightly,

289
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,720
the one takeaway where you saw the benefit of the 48

290
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,240
was that second shift,

291
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,200
that firefighter isn't having to wake up at five

292
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,680
in the morning to go to the station.

293
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,400
Yep, yeah, cause if you remember on the two slides

294
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,960
that we looked at day by day,

295
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,040
the commute days had the same sleep duration.

296
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,560
And so that was like 5.6 hours going to work

297
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,200
and then coming home.

298
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,000
Working the 48 hours overnight,

299
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:17,840
instead of commuting,

300
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,000
they were able to reallocate that to sleep time.

301
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,720
And so that's what bumped up their score a little bit.

302
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,160
It wasn't enough to draw

303
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,920
statistically significant differences,

304
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,040
what we'd say,

305
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,720
but it was enough meaningful for that particular department

306
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,760
since those firefighters needed sleep

307
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,080
with just even one call a night.

308
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,840
They were still less than the average hours of sleep

309
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,160
per National Sleep Foundation.

310
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,680
That brought in that question of the shift start time.

311
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,600
And so we're looking or thinking about

312
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,840
whether that is equally or if not more important

313
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,440
than the actual shift schedule,

314
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,360
especially early morning times

315
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,000
where their sleep is truncated,

316
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,640
waking up at 5.30 in the morning versus waking up at 7.30.

317
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,200
As we think about that in a week or that within a tour,

318
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,360
now that's four or six or eight hours of sleep debt

319
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:13,480
that someone is getting weekly

320
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,280
within that particular schedule.

321
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,320
So that may have a more impact

322
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:19,880
than the actual shift schedule.

323
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:20,720
Because like I said,

324
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,000
there's departments can implement safety measures

325
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,200
to help countermeasure some of those

326
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,800
depending on what they're going on

327
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,400
in that particular department.

328
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:32,640
I wanna send this down the line,

329
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,640
I just kinda wanna highlight having worked,

330
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,320
if the benefit of not having to wake up

331
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,080
at five in the morning and then drive to the station,

332
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:42,200
which I did my whole career,

333
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,160
usually about an hour and a half drive,

334
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,760
then it kinda makes me question

335
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,120
well, why do we start at 7.30 or eight in the morning?

336
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,120
What if we started at 11 a.m., 12 noon,

337
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:55,880
we would glean the advantage that you found in your study,

338
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,640
but then you add that to, for example, the 24 72,

339
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,480
now that's two birds with one stone.

340
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,000
You've got a firefighter that's at home,

341
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,480
wakes up, has breakfast with their children,

342
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,960
spends time with their loved one, then goes to work,

343
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,360
they've missed the rush hour.

344
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,560
The person who was on the rig that night who got hammered,

345
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:15,880
dispatch doesn't have to wake him up

346
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,040
at seven or eight in the morning,

347
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,760
they can actually sleep in.

348
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,440
So then by the time they're relieved,

349
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,800
now they're not gonna end up careening off I-4

350
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,720
because they're so exhausted trying to drive home.

351
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,880
So that's my personal opinion,

352
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,400
I think it's a great conversation and it's completely free.

353
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,640
What if we just started later and why did we start at eight?

354
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,400
I'm gonna send that down to Hugh next

355
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,960
and then kind of get your opinion on that idea.

356
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,000
Well, yeah, I would be open to anything that could help

357
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,480
improve the lives of the men and women

358
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,200
who serve my community.

359
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,040
So if the data points to that being better for my members,

360
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,840
then I'm all for it.

361
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,600
I would actually like to see, continue your data

362
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,600
into the 24 72 and actually with fire departments

363
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,840
in a running very high call volume.

364
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,640
When I left Miami-Dade Fire Rescue,

365
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,720
I mean, when I was on a unit was many, many years ago,

366
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,560
but my sons are there right now,

367
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,440
my wife retired from there and I can tell you,

368
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,280
you're typically every single unit probably

369
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,160
averaging 15 calls per shift

370
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:16,880
for both the suppression and the rescue.

371
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,800
So now if you were, and I'm just relaying that

372
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,040
to the 48 hour shift, I mean, that would be absolute misery

373
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,520
and we've all done it, who are out there working swaps

374
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,720
and you work 20 calls and then you go,

375
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,280
oh gosh, I got to do a payback

376
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,160
and then I'm doing another 20 calls

377
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,280
and then now it's just, it's horrendous.

378
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,240
So I would really love to see some new studies done

379
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,520
with larger departments or departments

380
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:40,680
that have that higher call volume,

381
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,960
but I think that that change in work time

382
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,920
would be fantastic if it worked out.

383
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,120
I'll play a little bit of devil's advocate with that.

384
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:54,000
So, the biggest stressors that I see out of our workforce

385
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,520
isn't actually fighting fires or going to EMS calls.

386
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,360
I see them deal with that very well.

387
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,560
One of the biggest stressors that I see

388
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,160
is getting off in the morning to be able to take children

389
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,000
to school or take over childcare.

390
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,200
And so, it's a wicked problem.

391
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,640
There's not an easy solution for that

392
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,080
because it's not just the firefighter

393
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:16,920
that you're dealing with.

394
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,360
You also have to deal with the other family members

395
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:21,200
that are doing that.

396
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,200
So, if we just need to look at how we are adjusting that.

397
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,560
So, for the crew that's holding over until noon

398
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,360
to be able to get off, they lose that ability

399
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,560
to help their spouse with that childcare.

400
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,760
One group gains a little bit more,

401
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:37,680
but it hurts the other one.

402
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,960
So, I would just say we have to make sure

403
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,680
that we're looking at that from a holistic family standpoint

404
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:44,800
on what's gonna be good.

405
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,000
Otherwise, it creates stress in other ways.

406
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:49,200
I would say the same thing.

407
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,400
We actually sent a survey out two years ago

408
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,520
asking about changing the start time from 8 a.m. to 10.

409
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,240
And that was a lot of the feedback that we received

410
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,000
from our members was the issues with childcare

411
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,160
and getting their kids to school

412
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,160
and getting home in time so that their spouses

413
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:03,080
could go to work.

414
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,720
That was why we decided to kind of stay

415
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,720
where we're at at 8 a.m.

416
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,480
But if we can find a solution to the problem,

417
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:10,560
that'd be great.

418
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,400
And I'm with Chief Breuder as well.

419
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,320
We have a very busy department.

420
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,780
The station I'm at right now is the busiest in the county

421
00:22:17,780 --> 00:22:20,800
and I would love to sleep in.

422
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,080
So, if we could get the time pushed back to noon,

423
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,760
the six calls after midnight allow me

424
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,240
to at least get a couple hours of sleep

425
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,680
before I can drive home.

426
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,280
So, definitely open to any research that comes our way.

427
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,480
There are, so the selection of a specific time,

428
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,880
that's gonna be, again, individual to the department.

429
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,120
Based on local area of like traffic, for example,

430
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,960
because you don't wanna now be stuck in traffic two hours

431
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,920
and you have to wake up the same time.

432
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,080
That defeats the entire purpose.

433
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,200
If they're able to, so if they dropped off kids

434
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,400
or picked up a kid at, when they got off at work

435
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,600
at eight o'clock, then ideally we'd pick a time

436
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,160
that they would then be able to drop off the child

437
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,120
and then go into work.

438
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:07,400
So, it's the complete opposite then.

439
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,920
You just don't wanna pick a time where it's right

440
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,600
in the middle where they can't do either.

441
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,600
Because then otherwise they're saying,

442
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,160
hey, can you come in half hour early

443
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,280
so that I can do that.

444
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,360
That's the trickier part.

445
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,360
All right, well, I'm sure the big question

446
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:25,480
that most people wanna ask is how are we gonna afford

447
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,320
to go to a 2472?

448
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,560
We'll start with the finance first

449
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,840
and then obviously we'll get into the recruitment crisis

450
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,200
and all the other questions that I get a lot.

451
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,120
So, I don't know if you have any kind of input for that,

452
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:42,120
Joel, as far as where you've seen money kind of being lost,

453
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:43,560
the way that we're doing it now,

454
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,720
versus a proactive approach?

455
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,720
Not, I mean, that's a little bit outside of my area.

456
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,280
The one presentation that I did back in,

457
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,040
it was in Arizona, the chief didn't mention that.

458
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,560
What they're able to do is save on overtime

459
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,840
by hiring additional two people,

460
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,760
is what they did for that particular department

461
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,520
and saved on overtime.

462
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,160
That's the only thing that I am familiar with.

463
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,000
Okay.

464
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,840
So.

465
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,880
Well, I guess I was gonna, with any of you guys,

466
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,680
what was the losses that you were seeing

467
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,480
if you have that data, I know Dixon, you do,

468
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,800
and then let's talk about, for example, Boynton,

469
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,960
have you seen financial gains since?

470
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,120
Yeah, so when we initially started,

471
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,160
and again, I go back to a five station,

472
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:32,160
160 person, smaller-ish Florida Fire Department,

473
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,040
but we were seeing numbers of about $2.5 million a year

474
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,000
in overtime, where we were typically budgeting

475
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,040
five to 800,000 a year for overtime.

476
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,720
So with those kind of numbers, and again,

477
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,920
as the fire chief or cheerleader in charge,

478
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,200
my job has many hats, and one of those is to make sure

479
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,400
that we're being extremely fiscally responsible

480
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,560
with what we're doing, because if you want buy-in

481
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,640
by our elected officials in your senior city

482
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,680
or municipal staff, you need to be able to put your money

483
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,640
where your mouth is.

484
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,360
So although we don't like to say

485
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,480
the fire service is revenue generating,

486
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,400
we do generate revenue, and it is a huge part of what we do,

487
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,000
and I've been able to get tremendous amount of respect

488
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,800
by showing that I am concerned about the generation

489
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,000
of revenue, not to the degradation of my members

490
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,680
or to the department.

491
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,680
But to answer the question, essentially,

492
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,800
by hiring these extra individuals,

493
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,240
which for us was about $1.3 million in the first year,

494
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,880
but we had literally went from $2.3 million in overtime

495
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,080
down to $800,000 in overtime.

496
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,000
So year one, we saw a net savings.

497
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,400
Now, if you talk to Boca Raton Fire Rescue,

498
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,520
who has been doing this for many, many years,

499
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,800
we were actually the second fire department in the country

500
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,600
to do it, but Boca will tell you, over a 30-year period,

501
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720
that their sick time usage wound up going right back

502
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,400
to where it was before.

503
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,680
So their sick time usage, you can't stand up and say,

504
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,640
well, sick time is going to be great forever,

505
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,040
because statistically, Boca has shown that it's not.

506
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,200
I can tell you, we're in year three right now of the 2472,

507
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,400
and our overtime is kicking back up.

508
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,840
Our sick leave is kicking back up now.

509
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,000
We went through some contract negotiations,

510
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,160
and I put some moves in there, because I'm very concerned

511
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:17,960
about the abuse of sick leave.

512
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,200
If you're sick, take off.

513
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,600
If you're going to abuse it, not in my department.

514
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,360
So we went contractually through,

515
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,800
and we did some things to kind of limit the number of days

516
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,640
and associate discipline to it.

517
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,840
And it's only to affect culture.

518
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,120
I'm not trying to make it difficult for my members,

519
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,640
but we have to look at this big picture of our budgets

520
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,200
and look at what we can do to be able to achieve all

521
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,760
the things that are necessary.

522
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,720
So sick leave is popping back up.

523
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,400
Overtime is starting to pop back up.

524
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,360
And I'm sure in the next three to five years,

525
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,920
we're probably going to be right back where we were.

526
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:54,300
So then one could say is the argument that 2472, 4896,

527
00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:55,800
10s and 14s, that these things are all

528
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,200
going to be going to save time.

529
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,880
I don't believe that they will.

530
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,400
And I'm just telling you that genuinely

531
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,080
from what I've experienced.

532
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,600
Does that mean it's not a good thing?

533
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,160
No, it's a tremendously good thing for our membership.

534
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,560
And so again, you have to go back

535
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:09,880
through your strategic planning.

536
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,220
You have to go through your budgeting.

537
00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:12,680
And you have to slowly calculate how

538
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,960
you're going to figure this out and get to the point

539
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,520
where at least you can facilitate

540
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,920
moving your schedule.

541
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,680
Gio, I'm going to jump in one second.

542
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,160
The overtime you're talking about

543
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,400
isn't from vacancies from a recruitment crisis, though.

544
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:25,400
You are fully staffed.

545
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:25,960
Is that correct?

546
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,720
No, some of it was.

547
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:27,960
Some of it was vacancies.

548
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,800
And some of it was we did have a higher

549
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,440
than average number of individuals

550
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,880
that were on family leave or that were on light duty

551
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,080
because of injuries.

552
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,720
That actually, it's something that you

553
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,440
cannot extrapolate that data.

554
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,360
You can be the best data person in the world,

555
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,920
but you have no idea when tomorrow five people are

556
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,240
going to get injured on the job.

557
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,680
And now your overtime goes up because you don't have enough

558
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,560
people in relief because you're just

559
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,240
trying to get your normal staffing every day

560
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,400
to run your calls.

561
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,800
So that's kind of that bigger picture.

562
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:57,760
Beautiful.

563
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,600
Chief.

564
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,560
I'd say perspective is everything.

565
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600
So we were in a very similar situation.

566
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,760
We budgeted about $400,000 for overtime per year.

567
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,800
And we were averaging about 2.8.

568
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,680
And that's because our staffing factor was 1.3,

569
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,680
but we were so short that in reality, we were at a one.

570
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,760
And that's what was driving that overtime.

571
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,400
And that wasn't sustainable.

572
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,840
And I'll say that the men and women of our department

573
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,000
sustained that for years.

574
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,400
And when I say they were working 48, 24s,

575
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,680
that's what they were doing.

576
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,520
So we took a very odd approach in that we only

577
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,000
hired two people to move to 24, 72s.

578
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,720
And we took that staffing factor of 1.3,

579
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,160
and we folded it back to a one.

580
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,080
And if I went to the NFA and said,

581
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,160
I have this great idea.

582
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,160
We're going to move our staffing factor to one,

583
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,240
I'd probably be stoned to death.

584
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,200
But essentially, we had been operating like that for years

585
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:05,520
already.

586
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,840
And we said, OK, how do we make this sustainable?

587
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,560
If this is what we're going to be doing,

588
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,600
how do we make that sustainable?

589
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,920
And the answer was to increase the recovery time

590
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,680
that people had.

591
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,000
So even though we still have a percentage of the department

592
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,000
that's working those 48s, they have those two days

593
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,760
of recovery time now.

594
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,800
And our staffing factor is a one,

595
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,480
but it's an easier pace for the crews to do that.

596
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,120
But it didn't come without a cost.

597
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,560
So whereas originally, we were spending about $2.8 million

598
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,120
on that, we're going to be closer to $4 million.

599
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,360
And we knew that going in.

600
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,440
We knew that this wasn't going to be a cost savings

601
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,200
thing immediately.

602
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,480
This was an improvement to the system

603
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,880
to make our department more attractive to people

604
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,400
and to stop the attrition that we had going on.

605
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,760
In the past five years, we hired 98 people.

606
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,360
And we had about half of those leave.

607
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,280
So our attrition rate was 50% over five years.

608
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,200
And hopefully, some of you out here

609
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,040
have gotten some really great employees

610
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,280
from Gainesville Fire Rescue.

611
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,080
We've been trying to train them as hard as we possibly could.

612
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,640
But for us, that wasn't sustainable.

613
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,000
And that's what required that change.

614
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,540
And we knew that there would be a cost,

615
00:30:18,540 --> 00:30:20,920
but we thought it would be a good investment.

616
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,400
I just want to stay with you again.

617
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,720
So you said you're down to nine employees.

618
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,400
Talk to me about how soon you're going to be fully staffed.

619
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,400
So when we first started talking about moving to 2472s,

620
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000
we were down 30 positions.

621
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,080
And we took about a year to move through the process

622
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,480
of setting everything up, which was still pretty fast

623
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,720
from our standpoint, because there are a lot of things

624
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,080
we have to do.

625
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:53,200
And now, we actually switched to a 2472 schedule in August.

626
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,720
And we're down nine positions.

627
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,560
And we'll start our next hiring class in February.

628
00:30:58,560 --> 00:30:59,960
And that should be the first time

629
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,280
that we'll be fully staffed.

630
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040
Now, again, we moved to that staffing factor of one,

631
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,880
but it's the same number of people.

632
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,360
But we'll be fully staffed for the first time in eight years.

633
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,480
Beautiful.

634
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Ikson.

635
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Yeah, so in Pasco County, over the last 10 years,

636
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,120
we've only had two non-consecutive months

637
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,440
where we hit minimum staffing.

638
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,240
So every day, we were hiring mandatory overtime.

639
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,040
Like I said earlier, in fiscal year 22,

640
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,720
we had 80,000 hours of overtime, which was $5.5 million.

641
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,960
Now, I don't have the number on what the county budgeted,

642
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,200
but that far exceeded it.

643
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,040
In 23, which was after our contract was executed,

644
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,800
we had 45,000 hours of overtime.

645
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,520
So we already had a $2.4 million reduction in overtime cost.

646
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,360
The cost of those 162 firefighters

647
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,240
leaving in those two years was $4.1 million.

648
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,120
So between those three items, the county

649
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,440
had a $13.3 million cost.

650
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,440
The cost to put the D-Shift in place is $13 million.

651
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,400
We did a lot of groundwork with our local county commissioners,

652
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,880
as well as our administration, preaching, obviously,

653
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,000
the health and safety of our members,

654
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,240
on top of being fiscally responsible for the constituents

655
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,160
of our county.

656
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,280
And there were some give and takes in our negotiations.

657
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,600
We did have a reduction in our PTO accrual.

658
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,880
We combined sick and vacation to PTO.

659
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,880
We had a reduction in our PTO accrual of 20%,

660
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,920
which is a reduction of our total hours worked.

661
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,680
Currently, right now, our overtime

662
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,800
does not kick in until 22 hours over your regular schedule.

663
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,120
So there is some short-term savings,

664
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,000
and we also kind of split it over two years.

665
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360
So this year, half the money was available for them

666
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,320
due to the hiring.

667
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,480
Next year is the same.

668
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,040
And we split the effective is April 6.

669
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,840
So right in the middle of our fiscal year,

670
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,280
to help offset some of those costs

671
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,120
so that we can get this schedule on board.

672
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,440
And a lot of the discussion, too,

673
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,000
was if we went from a six-week Kelly Day, which we got in 2017,

674
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,320
to a three-week Kelly Day, is that

675
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,680
going to solve the problem?

676
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,360
And the answer is no, because we don't make dollar for dollar

677
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,360
what other agencies south of us do.

678
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,560
So we have to be creative.

679
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,560
We have to be the first to the watering hole, right?

680
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,640
That's when everyone's going to come in the door.

681
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,440
And I tell you right now, in the last year,

682
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,200
I mean, it's proven true.

683
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,880
So now we just have to continue to make sure

684
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,960
that it is successful, continues to be successful.

685
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,920
And when everyone else comes to 2472,

686
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,920
figure out what's the next step.

687
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,040
Can I piggyback off of that?

688
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:25,960
Please.

689
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,320
So I want to piggyback off of that, because as you see,

690
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,200
we've got union leadership and we got fire chiefs up here.

691
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,240
So what I want to also say is, as part of this also larger

692
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,400
picture is, if you are at odds with your union,

693
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,960
or your union is at odds with you,

694
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,520
you're not going to get anything done.

695
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,080
You might as well forget about it.

696
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,280
So you have to create a healthy environment

697
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,320
to where you are able to communicate

698
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,320
with your union leadership.

699
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:58,160
Union and management in the fire service needs to be like this.

700
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,560
We cannot be like this.

701
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,840
We all need to aspire to be like this.

702
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,080
When we aspire for this, we achieve greatness.

703
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,080
We achieve success on every single level,

704
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,480
because none of us can do this alone.

705
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,480
We must do it together.

706
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,240
So I just wanted to add that, and I

707
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:15,800
wanted to applaud the gentleman up here,

708
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,480
because it takes that communication

709
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,120
in working with labor in order to make these things success.

710
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:23,480
Well, let's expand on that.

711
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,880
I want to get to another topic, but while we're already

712
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,120
talking about that, the progressive people

713
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,360
that I've interacted with have made it work.

714
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,360
I've said, you know what?

715
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,000
I'm tired of going to funerals.

716
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,640
My people are exhausted.

717
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:36,640
I'm seeing divorces.

718
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,000
I'm seeing all kinds of stuff.

719
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,280
This needs to change.

720
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,440
I'm also seeing a lot of people, and I'm

721
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,080
blaming my rank firefighter all the way through to the top.

722
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,320
That'll never happen here.

723
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,840
They'll never go for it, which is so dismissive and cowardly,

724
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:52,880
in my opinion.

725
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,680
So let's unpack leadership for a second.

726
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,100
Talk to me about how you forge the relationships

727
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:02,040
in the community, and then talk to me about courage,

728
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,560
because ultimately, this is something

729
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,960
that's going to be unpopular for individuals,

730
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,960
whether they're in a union, whether they're wearing

731
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,120
a chief's bugles.

732
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,400
But this is the conversation that

733
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,240
needs to happen if we really want to save lives

734
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:14,120
in the fire service.

735
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,920
So I'll kick it back to you, Hugh, and then we'll go down.

736
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,920
And Joel, I'd love to get your thoughts, too.

737
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,920
Yeah, I mean, it's an extremely valid point.

738
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,680
You see, I have a distinct advantage,

739
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,780
and a lot of fire chiefs that have worked and retired

740
00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:31,720
and went somewhere else tend to have this similar advantage.

741
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,200
I don't do what I do for money.

742
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,360
I came back to the fire service to change

743
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,480
the face of mental health within the fire service,

744
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,400
because of all the years I had spent actually in practice

745
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,280
doing neurofeedback and doing some other things that I knew

746
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,480
would be a game changer.

747
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,680
So I wanted to bring my many years of fire service

748
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,360
leadership experience back.

749
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,960
And so this 2472 all kind of came into play for me.

750
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,120
But it takes an extreme and enormous amount of energy

751
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,480
as the director or fire chief of an organization

752
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,880
just to run your department on a day-to-day basis,

753
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,520
let alone having to step outside the box

754
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,640
and take steps that are going to put you out,

755
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,120
put a noose on you.

756
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,000
That's basically what a lot of us are doing,

757
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,560
especially if we're going into these extremely charged

758
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,920
environments to where you may have political leaders,

759
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,160
because the elected officials are completely

760
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,600
trying to dismantle what they've built in that department,

761
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,040
because they don't think that seven firefighters on a car

762
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,920
accident, well, that's too many people.

763
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,280
You're wasting resources.

764
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,500
14 firefighters on a house fire when the NFPA recommends 21.

765
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,560
And they're telling us, that's too many people.

766
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:40,640
You need to downsize.

767
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:41,200
You don't have enough.

768
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:42,960
They want to take the third person off rescue

769
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,240
and put them on the suppression.

770
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,880
There's some wacky things that are going on out there.

771
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,000
So the bottom line is you have to be

772
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,120
able to create these relationships.

773
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,880
You have to step out of your comfort zone.

774
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,120
And you have to do so by waking up in the morning

775
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,960
and looking at yourself in the mirror and reminding yourself,

776
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,120
why are you wearing a fifth bugle?

777
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,520
Why are you there?

778
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,600
What is it that you're trying to achieve?

779
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,080
Are you there just for your pension?

780
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,240
Are you there to make your department the best it can be?

781
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:09,800
Are you there just for the membership?

782
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:10,760
What are you there for?

783
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,640
Self-evaluate, just like we ask our membership out there

784
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,680
when you have a lieutenant that's not acting right,

785
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,280
or a BC that's not acting right.

786
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,080
Look at yourself in the mirror and determine,

787
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,320
why am I serving every day?

788
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:21,680
What am I here for?

789
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,600
So the self-evaluation and understanding

790
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,920
that this is not easy.

791
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,920
It's not easy to stand up at the dais

792
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,360
and try to tell elected officials who really

793
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,280
don't care about you or what you're doing

794
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,520
that this is the best thing or it's in the best interest.

795
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,640
So again, I, in my particular municipality,

796
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,280
went back to the strategic planning model.

797
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,080
And it just so happened my city was

798
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,760
having some senior leadership issues

799
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,880
and asked me to step in at a little bit of a higher

800
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,000
rank than I am to facilitate that strategic planning

801
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,720
for the city.

802
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,320
So they basically handed me a little bone there.

803
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,000
So through that ability to strategic plan,

804
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,340
we were able to educate the public on what

805
00:37:57,340 --> 00:38:00,280
was necessary monetarily to the point where

806
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,400
I was successful at increasing our fire assessment fee in order

807
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,800
to cover all of the items that I need,

808
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,440
whether it's the 2472, whether it's the fact we just

809
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,600
bought a fire boat, we'll be the second department

810
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,840
in Palm Beach County north of Boca with a fire boat.

811
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,360
We have a lot of wire water that we need to cover.

812
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,840
Whatever the case may be, whatever

813
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,560
you have within your jurisdiction

814
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,720
that you need to obtain funding for,

815
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,640
you can't do it unless you have these communications

816
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,760
with your elected officials and senior leadership.

817
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,720
So it's our job, me wearing that fifth bugle.

818
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,200
It's my job to educate not only my senior leadership,

819
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,720
but those elected officials, and do it

820
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:41,960
through strategic planning, and you will be successful.

821
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,480
So if I go back to the two problems

822
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,320
that we were trying to solve, number one was safety.

823
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,720
Number two was retention.

824
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,220
That's really how we approached that.

825
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:51,960
We approached it in lockstep with our union.

826
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,560
But when we talked to the commission,

827
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,960
we actually referred to it as the safety staffing model.

828
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,600
And one of the big selling points that we showed

829
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,640
was how often people were working,

830
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,840
and the question of whether or not that was safe,

831
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,320
and the answer was no.

832
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,160
And then as often as possible, we

833
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,160
invite our elected officials to come in and do ride-alongs

834
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,980
with the fire department.

835
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:19,480
And 100% of the time, whenever they come in and do a ride,

836
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,240
they're bought in on the job.

837
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:23,720
So that was the important things.

838
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,960
And our commissioners did do that.

839
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,520
They were understanding that firefighters

840
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,920
didn't want to work that many hours.

841
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,280
They weren't trying to pad their paycheck.

842
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,480
They wanted to go home at the end of their shift,

843
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,100
and we weren't letting them.

844
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,160
We were mandatorying them in.

845
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,200
And they were carrying that burden.

846
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,160
Their family was carrying that burden.

847
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,800
But there was a safety factor to that.

848
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,240
So that's how we approached it.

849
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:57,880
We literally called it the safety factor staffing model.

850
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,600
And I just heard our human resources manager

851
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,280
refer to that Thursday, whenever we ratified the contract.

852
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,360
And so that kind of stuck a little bit.

853
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,680
And that's how we got that in the minds of the commissioners.

854
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,400
And we approached that step by step with the union.

855
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,880
It was definitely a collaboration.

856
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,040
As a local leader, we're able to have conversations

857
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,640
with our commissioners that everybody in this room

858
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:29,360
cannot have.

859
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,520
We're able to talk to them a different way

860
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,680
than you're able to talk to them.

861
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,800
The public push was all public safety.

862
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,120
So we were a perfect storm.

863
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,360
We were averaging 12-minute response times.

864
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,240
We had some that were over 30% of our calls were 15 minutes.

865
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:48,960
So we had a huge public safety issue.

866
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,920
So when we were going in our BOCC chambers

867
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,760
and we were preaching to them about what we need,

868
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,120
there wasn't one time where we talked about wages, hours

869
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,720
worked, nothing that benefited us.

870
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,440
It was all to benefit the public,

871
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,440
knowing that if they increase the millage rate,

872
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,960
everything else is going to fall in line.

873
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,080
We're also blessed to have a staff in my agency that

874
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,660
works well with us.

875
00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:14,160
We have a great relationship.

876
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,320
And they're preaching on their side,

877
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,360
and we're doing the same.

878
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,200
We're the same numbers, the same information,

879
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,800
talking to the same people.

880
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,640
And eventually, we got over the finish line.

881
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,080
Now, this year, we just had an increase in our millage rate

882
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,920
for the first time in seven years.

883
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,920
So it was a big deal.

884
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,720
Yeah, that's what I'm.

885
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,000
I just want to come from the firefighter perspective.

886
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,360
I'm not a union president, not a chief.

887
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,160
But one of the things that I've seen our rank,

888
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,880
with the opposition, again, they'll never go for it,

889
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,880
is I believed all the way until just a few years ago

890
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,600
that I worked one day on, two days off.

891
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,960
And finally, the penny dropped.

892
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:54,120
I was like, wait a second.

893
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,640
An eight hour day is a day in the civilian world

894
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,120
with a one hour lunch.

895
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,400
So I worked three days on.

896
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,480
That second day from midnight to 8 AM, I worked.

897
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,520
So that's not a day off.

898
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,720
So I actually worked three days on, one day off.

899
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:07,920
So it's not 10 days a month.

900
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,680
It's 30 days a month.

901
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,680
And so then I asked the question, well, then

902
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,240
why is the person who wakes up from a dead sleep,

903
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,520
slides down a pole, gets in the back of a tiller,

904
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,560
goes to a house fire, throws a ladder,

905
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,960
does a primary search, pulls out a kid,

906
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,880
and rescues not here, DOS his gear,

907
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,400
now does a pediatric algorithm on this child,

908
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,240
we're OK with them working 56 hours or 80 hours

909
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:32,600
if you have a mandatory overtime.

910
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,680
But the person who makes my coffee works 40.

911
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,560
This is something that we, as a profession,

912
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:38,560
need to ask ourselves.

913
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,760
Why do I not deserve to go home?

914
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,280
Why do my family not deserve me to walk through that door

915
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,240
at 8, 30, or 9, or 1 if we change the schedule?

916
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:49,360
Why do I not deserve that?

917
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,480
And we need to ask ourselves that.

918
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,880
What we do is incredible, absolutely incredible.

919
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,200
And even the Special Forces people that I've interviewed

920
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,240
say, when I'm in Afghanistan, you're protecting my kids.

921
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:02,880
And they hold us to this standard too.

922
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,240
So it's up to us as well to fight for this.

923
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,560
We're courageous in fires and extrications and rope rescues.

924
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,360
But we're not very courageous in advocating

925
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:12,520
for time with our families.

926
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,840
So that's kind of a firefighter perspective to me,

927
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,200
is I'd never thought about that until a few years ago.

928
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,000
But why not?

929
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,720
Because we're such a selfless profession

930
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:23,040
that we just show up.

931
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,440
There are people that do it for free around the country.

932
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,320
But we have to advocate for our own health

933
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,240
so we don't drop dead within five years, which

934
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:30,600
is what we hear all the time.

935
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,400
And we need to be there for those kids.

936
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,880
Be there for your spouse so your marriage stays intact

937
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,920
and your child is raised healthily.

938
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,320
So to me, the ultimate currency is time, time with our family.

939
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,840
And we've chased dollars and cents for years and years

940
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,800
and years.

941
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,360
I want to kind of go to the recruitment crisis.

942
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:49,680
So again, devil's advocate.

943
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,120
We can't even hire people now.

944
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,440
How am I supposed to hire another shift?

945
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,880
My personal perspective with all these interviews

946
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,120
that I've done, I hear the great leaders

947
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,280
say this young generation are incredible.

948
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,920
But they value their relationships.

949
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,160
They value their physical health, their mental health.

950
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,200
The way I see the crisis is when I

951
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,720
was hired 20 years ago, back draft had just come out.

952
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:15,800
9-11 was two years ago.

953
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,120
And we were all gung ho, sooty face, and cats in trees.

954
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,560
Now when I Google what's it like to be a firefighter,

955
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,960
I also see the divorces, the suicides, the addictions,

956
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,600
the obesity, the testosterone destruction, et cetera, et

957
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:28,800
cetera, et cetera.

958
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,560
The 56 hour week, the 80 hour with mandatory.

959
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,400
And so these young, intelligent recruits, in my opinion,

960
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,040
are looking at this on pieces of paper.

961
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,720
And I had one of the other Gainesville chiefs on my show.

962
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:44,160
He said he had a young recruit with six different departments

963
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,400
and their stats so he could decide which one to go to.

964
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,960
They're looking at this and going, this isn't for me.

965
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,840
20 years ago, I was up against 1,000 recruits

966
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,200
in Anaheim, California for 30 spots.

967
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,160
So we were there, and we can get there again.

968
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,700
But we're not there right now, and we're spiraling downwards.

969
00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:03,800
So that's my little pre-monologue.

970
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,800
I apologize for that.

971
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,440
But I'll start with you, Joel, even from the researcher's

972
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:08,800
point of view.

973
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,880
What is your perspective of why it's

974
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:16,360
harder to hire firefighters now in the time that you've seen?

975
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,000
So over the summer, we had a stakeholder workshop

976
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,040
related to the second edition of that report that I mentioned.

977
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:30,080
And so that has stakeholders from IFC, IFF, National

978
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,720
Volunteer Fire Council, and then NFFF.

979
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,880
And on that, we talked about some generational differences,

980
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,720
specifically age.

981
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:44,440
And the younger firefighters were wanting more time home.

982
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:50,520
And that sort of implied a non-24-hour scheduling system.

983
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,800
And I know we probably may or may not get into that,

984
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,480
but that's a whole other can of worms of looking at, OK,

985
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,160
are we going to be home every day or every 24 or 48 hours?

986
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:08,640
Even with the 24-72, that, well, I'll take a step back.

987
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,440
First, to understand the problem,

988
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,520
because if we understand and know the problem,

989
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,160
that's going to help dictate what solution we take.

990
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:21,600
So if it is an issue of safety, OK, 24 hours and then

991
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,760
a longer recovery period is going to be fine.

992
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,840
If it is an issue of wanting to be home,

993
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,360
that's a little bit of a different solution.

994
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,040
And so if you start with the 24-72,

995
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,320
what's stopping someone from going to A48 on and then

996
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:38,800
six days off?

997
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,320
So because the 24-72 is a four-platoon system,

998
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,840
it can duplicate any of the three platoon system schedules.

999
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,480
So the 24-48, 48-96, and then the Kelly,

1000
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,800
you just add an extra rotation for that next crew.

1001
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,600
So we're kind of at the beginning of a new system.

1002
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,400
And so there are other ways that we can,

1003
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,760
if it's from a safety, are we talking about maybe

1004
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,520
community-based EMS to reduce the workload,

1005
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,560
or is it a conversation of more units or more stations

1006
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,160
within a city to help disperse the workload

1007
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,840
among the existing personnel?

1008
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,880
Two or three very different solutions to two and three

1009
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,280
different problems.

1010
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,040
That's why I think understanding the problem, such as

1011
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,360
recruitment, for example, is key as a starting point

1012
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,200
to be able to develop and deliver programs that

1013
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,520
can fix that problem.

1014
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,600
I know it's not an answer to your question.

1015
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,280
No, but it's a strange dynamic from your research point of view.

1016
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,400
So yeah, it's good to hear.

1017
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,560
The rest of you gentlemen, what do you see as far as the root

1018
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:39,800
of the recruitment crisis?

1019
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,840
And have you seen offering these young people this new shift

1020
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,800
schedule improve the desire to actually work for your agencies?

1021
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,200
So yeah, so I'll start.

1022
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,560
So it's interesting that, so at the Palm Beach County Fire

1023
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,480
Chiefs Association, we meet on a lot of these topics

1024
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,640
all the time, as I'm sure all of you do within your areas.

1025
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,200
And about six months ago, and we work very closely

1026
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,480
with Palm Beach State College, both EMS and the Fire Academy,

1027
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,880
as most of us should be doing, working closely

1028
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,040
with our training agencies.

1029
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,240
But the data that actually studies

1030
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:16,320
that they've been doing at the college level,

1031
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,880
and this is extremely troubling and interesting,

1032
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,760
because the number that the college told us,

1033
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,200
they did a whole presentation about the statistical data.

1034
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,000
And the number is stunning.

1035
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,520
58% reduction throughout the United States

1036
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,320
in the numbers of individuals who are moving

1037
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,640
into public service careers.

1038
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,160
So it's not just the fire department.

1039
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:39,960
It's the police department.

1040
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:40,880
It's public works.

1041
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,940
If I want to go work in finance at my city,

1042
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:45,400
or I want to go in utilities and be a garbage person,

1043
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,920
whatever the case may be, 58% reduction.

1044
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,920
So with a 58% reduction of people

1045
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,440
going into the fire service or into public service,

1046
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,600
on top of you have a situation where, and again,

1047
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,320
I hate to be Debbie Downer, but part of why we're all here

1048
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,400
doing this is because more firefighters die

1049
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,520
by their own hand in the line of duty.

1050
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,480
How are we going to stop this epidemic?

1051
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,360
The only way we stop it is by looking

1052
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,280
at every aspect of what we do and trying to improve it.

1053
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,120
To me, the ancillary benefit of what we're doing is retention.

1054
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,480
Retention comes from having a good mental health program.

1055
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,560
Retention comes from having a good shift schedule

1056
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,680
and having good salaries and having good benefits

1057
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,760
for your members.

1058
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,440
So that's, I think, stunning to look at that reduction

1059
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,600
in the number of people going into public service.

1060
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:35,960
I'll start a bigger picture.

1061
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,080
I'm going to preach to the choir here for a second.

1062
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,640
So number one, the world's just a smaller place.

1063
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,800
People don't mind moving as much as they used to.

1064
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,880
You can move completely across the country,

1065
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,280
and you can still FaceTime with your parents.

1066
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,480
Your mom can tell you what to put in the recipe

1067
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,960
that you're trying to make so that you're not homesick.

1068
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,000
And I think that dynamic really changed a lot for everybody,

1069
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,680
including the fire service, where people aren't afraid

1070
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,200
to move and to switch jobs and to try new stuff

1071
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,320
because it's out there for them.

1072
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,280
The other thing is, if you looked

1073
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,480
at the start of my career, we had

1074
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,720
to worry about comparable departments

1075
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:24,880
or that unicorn department that had a 4% multiplier

1076
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,000
or something like that.

1077
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,400
And that's where you were worried

1078
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,080
about your firefighters going.

1079
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:34,440
But our workforce is pretty versatile.

1080
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,600
Number one, they're used to showing up on time.

1081
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,480
That beats a lot of the workforce to begin with.

1082
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,600
Number two, they're mentally hearty.

1083
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,760
They can deal with a lot of stuff.

1084
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,640
And number three, they're trained to do a lot of things.

1085
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,480
And I mean, I actually have lost a percentage of firefighters

1086
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,520
to emergency management in the corporate world.

1087
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,160
I have to worry about my firefighters

1088
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,120
going to make twice as much as I make working

1089
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,120
in emergency management.

1090
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,560
You add nursing on top of that.

1091
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,240
The number of nurses that we have in the department

1092
00:51:09,240 --> 00:51:11,720
has increased exponentially.

1093
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:14,680
And maybe one or two departments,

1094
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,840
but the majority of us don't pay them

1095
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,840
for that extra medical certification.

1096
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,960
They make more money in their part-time job.

1097
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,800
And eventually, a lot of them decide, you know what?

1098
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,760
I'm going to go do that because I make so much more.

1099
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:33,080
So the options that they have, I think, has increased.

1100
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,320
And that's kind of changed the dynamic for us.

1101
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,120
The world has simply gotten a little bit smaller.

1102
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:39,720
And then the last thing that I'll say,

1103
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:43,320
and it goes to the mental health of the firefighters,

1104
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:48,120
when I teach EVOC and I try to explain

1105
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,720
the importance of that driver operator,

1106
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,360
one of the things that I always talk about

1107
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,360
is what happens if you're in an accident.

1108
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,440
And if you are in an accident and you've ever actually

1109
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,920
come face to face with your mortality,

1110
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,640
you ask yourself what it is that you really want out of life

1111
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,280
and what is important.

1112
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,680
And a lot of times, people think to themselves,

1113
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,960
you know what is important is spending time with my family.

1114
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,960
And where else can I make, for our one to five year range

1115
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,720
people, where else can I make $20 an hour

1116
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:23,280
and maybe not put myself at such risk?

1117
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,240
And the answer is everywhere.

1118
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:29,440
And that's what we're competing against.

1119
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,200
I think the main question every leader of every fire

1120
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,440
organization should ask is, are you investing in your people?

1121
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,040
Your biggest salesmen for your agency

1122
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,240
are the people that work for you, right?

1123
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:43,920
They're teaching the fire academies.

1124
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,720
They have a brother, a sister, an uncle

1125
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:46,880
who's in the fire service.

1126
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,880
And they're talking to all these new recruits.

1127
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,320
What are they saying about the place that they work?

1128
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,280
It's not just dollars.

1129
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,680
What's your time work during a six hour work week?

1130
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,880
Are you looking to go to a three week or a 24 72 schedule?

1131
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,960
Do you have a decon program?

1132
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,080
How does your agency handle mental health?

1133
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,840
All these new hires, they are the most educated

1134
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:09,720
you've ever seen.

1135
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:12,720
If you don't think that your applicants are reviewing

1136
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:16,560
every single agencies, CBA, you're wrong.

1137
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,160
This last class, perfect example,

1138
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,080
I had somebody coming from another agency.

1139
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,640
Before he received the job offer,

1140
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,440
reached out to me and talked to me on the phone

1141
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,320
for about 45 minutes, going over our contract,

1142
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,360
getting the answers to his questions.

1143
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:29,400
They're all doing it.

1144
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,960
The one applicant that had six agencies all listed out,

1145
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,340
that's not a surprise.

1146
00:53:33,340 --> 00:53:36,720
They're coming with college degrees, bachelor's, master's.

1147
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:38,360
They are doing their research before they

1148
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,280
pick their 30 year home.

1149
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,840
So if we're not investing in our people

1150
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,800
that we currently have, how can you expect new ones

1151
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:44,920
to come in the door?

1152
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,160
And that was the problem that we were seeing in our agency.

1153
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,320
No decon, no mental health, 56 hour work week.

1154
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,360
On top of the pay being 25% lower than other agencies

1155
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,640
surrounding us, it just was a recipe for disaster.

1156
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,680
So how do we fix those issues?

1157
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,600
It's going to take time and it's going to take money.

1158
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,600
How can we do this in a progressive way

1159
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,880
that we can just build on our foundation

1160
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,240
and continue to get people in?

1161
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:09,680
And so far it's working for us.

1162
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,880
And I told you the numbers of that.

1163
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,040
259 applicants, 76 of them are paramedics.

1164
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,680
They're the gold standard.

1165
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,000
You hire a paramedic, it's no education leave,

1166
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,680
it's no tuition reimbursement.

1167
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,540
Those are the ones that everybody is going after.

1168
00:54:25,540 --> 00:54:29,560
We were receiving zero two years ago.

1169
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,720
Huge difference.

1170
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:35,040
That's the answer.

1171
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:39,680
I just want to tag on to the health side.

1172
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,720
In my whole career in the fire service and beyond,

1173
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:45,720
when it came to cancer, there were some great, great people

1174
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:46,240
out there.

1175
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:48,680
Obviously, University of Miami is doing amazing things.

1176
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,600
I never heard shift work and sleep mentioned.

1177
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,440
It was decon, it was plime events, it was extractors.

1178
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,480
But sleep deprivation, shift work, and this is ironic,

1179
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,200
because shift work is someone who only works a 40 hour work

1180
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,160
week, is a class two or class B carcinogen

1181
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,040
by the World Health Organization.

1182
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,720
When it comes to mental health, there

1183
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:12,840
is a direct correlation between sleep deprivation and addiction

1184
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,840
and depression and anxiety and suicide.

1185
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,520
Yet we're not talking about that either.

1186
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,160
It's the elephant in the room.

1187
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,040
So when you're looking at the health side,

1188
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,640
we've been talking about how to make it work

1189
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,080
in recruitment and financial.

1190
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,360
But if you're looking at the health of your first responder,

1191
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,160
weight gain, testosterone.

1192
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,160
If anyone here knows a firefighter who

1193
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,640
hasn't got a testosterone of 300 or less,

1194
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,120
it's been on for 10 years, then you're an anomaly.

1195
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,800
That's not because everyone's just suddenly,

1196
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,040
their testes have just given up.

1197
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,680
It's because sleep deprivation destroys hormonal regularity.

1198
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,680
You process trauma when you sleep.

1199
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,840
Your brain literally takes a bath.

1200
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,920
You process the digestive side.

1201
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,200
So your ghrelin and your leptin is all out of whack.

1202
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:58,800
Your insulin is out of whack.

1203
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,520
And we wonder why we have weight gain in the fire service.

1204
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,800
It's not if, it's when, unless you are so kind of tuned in

1205
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,080
that you're able to circumnavigate that.

1206
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,400
So when it comes to the health side, again, why

1207
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,160
are we working for 42 hours?

1208
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:13,520
And I'd like to kind of say this.

1209
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,240
People ask me for the data.

1210
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:17,760
I wish I could give you data, but we haven't done it.

1211
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,200
As Joel pointed to, there's almost no research

1212
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,800
whatsoever on shift work in the fire service.

1213
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,000
But I can show you the data on how not to do it.

1214
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,840
It's how we've done it for the last 80 years.

1215
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,880
And look at the results.

1216
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,440
We're in here, most of us, because we're losing firefighters

1217
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,000
and we actually care.

1218
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,160
So if the way we do it now doesn't work,

1219
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,160
then the equal and opposite is only going to improve it.

1220
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,680
And the shift and the work week and some of the other things

1221
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:47,160
that we've talked about are massive false multipliers

1222
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,640
in cancer, in mental health, in all these other areas.

1223
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,840
So I just want to kind of put that in there.

1224
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,560
I want to get to the success.

1225
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,400
But before we do, let's talk teething troubles.

1226
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,320
I mean, you guys are pioneers in the country, really.

1227
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,840
So what are some of the stumbling blocks?

1228
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,040
I've heard about promotion, especially in the young

1229
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,960
department, for example.

1230
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,520
I don't know, again, Joel, I want to kind of include you.

1231
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,160
If there's anything that you've seen as far as challenges

1232
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,840
to having these conversations and any barriers, even

1233
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,720
from the research point of view.

1234
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,920
No, there was a department in Texas that the membership

1235
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,920
wanted 4096.

1236
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,120
Chief wanted a later start time based on what we kind of

1237
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,200
covered with it.

1238
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,760
And so he was able to work with membership

1239
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,480
to get both of those put into place.

1240
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,320
So it was a working relationship.

1241
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,840
What you had mentioned, it's a collaboration

1242
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,720
to get something good out of it.

1243
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:48,440
Not everybody likes to be told what to do,

1244
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,920
but maybe there could be a give and take situation

1245
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,680
to have a better outcome.

1246
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,600
So Hugh, again, stumbling blocks.

1247
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,240
I mean, we want to obviously have this budget,

1248
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,920
hire other people, and off we go.

1249
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,640
But talk to me about that transition process.

1250
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,320
I think a lot of that would be what everyone in this room

1251
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:07,200
is thinking about.

1252
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,520
And it's funny, because it's the things that you miss.

1253
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,920
I completely missed the fourth locker in the stations.

1254
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:14,880
I just missed that.

1255
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,560
It's a minor thing, but wow, I just missed it.

1256
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,640
So we didn't budget for it.

1257
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:19,920
I got to find some money for it.

1258
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:21,040
So we did.

1259
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,440
But you've got to think of every little aspect of this

1260
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:24,120
from the training.

1261
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:25,920
And of course, the promotions were the same.

1262
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:27,040
We promoted 14 people.

1263
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:27,560
We promoted.

1264
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,200
And we have lieutenants on every rescue truck.

1265
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,360
And we actually just are now going to captains

1266
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:33,560
on suppressions.

1267
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,840
So it's all of these things.

1268
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:36,640
It's promotions.

1269
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:37,360
It's training.

1270
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,560
It's making sure that the individual is comfortable

1271
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:40,320
doing that.

1272
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,160
Luckily, even on our small department,

1273
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:44,560
we had enough individuals that were qualified

1274
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,920
to fill these positions, which again, is something we looked

1275
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,480
at before we even did it.

1276
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,520
We looked at what are the ramifications going

1277
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,600
to be across the board.

1278
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,880
And so we had a lot of young lieutenants out there.

1279
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,520
And so we have to beef up.

1280
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,920
My training chief's back there shaking his head.

1281
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:01,680
Because you really do.

1282
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:03,840
You have to have a robust training program

1283
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,360
that you can get those lieutenants and those captains

1284
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,640
up to speed so that they can go out there and represent

1285
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,440
your department properly.

1286
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,560
So it's back to train, train, train, train.

1287
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,040
But I'm going to tell you, it's been a tremendous success

1288
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:18,440
for us.

1289
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,000
Dollar-wise, like I said, we're fine.

1290
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:21,520
We're fine.

1291
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:22,280
It didn't hurt us.

1292
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,640
It didn't really help us now three years in.

1293
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:26,800
But retention is just off the chain.

1294
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,000
We haven't lost one firefighter to retention in three years.

1295
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,640
And we're fully staffed.

1296
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,960
And we're 100% paramedic department, as these guys said.

1297
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,560
The paramedic is the gold standard.

1298
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,000
If you can have 100%, you're going

1299
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,360
to be doing really, really well.

1300
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,760
So honestly, for us, it's just been a win-win.

1301
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,680
Funny little side note, the finance

1302
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,160
didn't plan for 17 people going in the drop

1303
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,400
in the last couple months.

1304
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,640
And I'm sending them emails that I'm, listen, you guys got

1305
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,080
17 people going in the drop.

1306
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:55,780
You better get ready, because it was coming towards the end

1307
00:59:55,780 --> 00:59:56,880
of my budget year.

1308
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,920
So of course, 17 people going in the drop, paying back leave,

1309
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:03,760
added about $1.7 million to my budget at the end of the year.

1310
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:05,600
Finance director calls me and says, chief,

1311
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,720
is that because of the 2472?

1312
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:08,520
I go, no, bro.

1313
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:09,320
Look at your emails.

1314
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,040
I sent you an email that's because of the guys going

1315
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:11,760
in the drop.

1316
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,560
But the funny thing is, the first thing

1317
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,720
that all the pundits and the pencil pushers want to do

1318
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:19,200
is go back to, oh, it's because you went to the 2472.

1319
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,240
But if you don't know your stuff, I know my stuff.

1320
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:23,120
I know my budget.

1321
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,080
As the chief, even though I have people helping me,

1322
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,760
I know every single dollar that comes in and out

1323
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:29,880
of that fire department.

1324
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,480
And that dollar gives me that strength

1325
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,080
to be able to manage it appropriately.

1326
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,680
So good for us.

1327
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,760
Yeah, it's the administrative things

1328
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,720
that kind of sneak up on you.

1329
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,240
Our payroll system had a seizure,

1330
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:46,480
because I couldn't figure it out.

1331
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,820
So part of the negotiation process,

1332
01:00:48,820 --> 01:00:52,760
we negotiated 10 hours straight, which essentially kept us

1333
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:57,600
at 52 hours before overtime kicked in.

1334
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,320
And the firefighters figured that out pretty quickly,

1335
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,860
that the straight time can still count towards my retirement.

1336
01:01:03,860 --> 01:01:04,760
So they were all about it.

1337
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,120
And the city was happy about it, because they were like,

1338
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:08,040
we got them.

1339
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,120
They're going to work 10 hours of straight time

1340
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,240
before this kicks in.

1341
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:17,120
But our payroll system didn't have a way to do that.

1342
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,000
So that was just something that had

1343
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,620
to be overcome whenever, eventually, payroll was like,

1344
01:01:22,620 --> 01:01:25,400
what do you mean you negotiated this?

1345
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,200
So that was one of the big things.

1346
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,680
Promotions were very hard.

1347
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,320
We had to make a decision as to whether or not.

1348
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,680
We wanted to go to the outside for promoted positions

1349
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:38,560
within the department.

1350
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:43,200
After a lot of soul searching, we decided to stay internal.

1351
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,280
It required that we carry a couple of lieutenant's

1352
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:46,800
positions for a while.

1353
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:51,420
We'll actually have a lieutenant's test in June.

1354
01:01:51,420 --> 01:01:53,400
And that'll make us whole for lieutenants.

1355
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,820
And then immediately, I'll be short a couple of drivers

1356
01:01:55,820 --> 01:01:56,760
for a couple of months.

1357
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,680
And that's because we also chose not

1358
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,960
to change something that firefighters love,

1359
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,320
which is the standard.

1360
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:10,900
So we could have said, we'll adjust this number of years

1361
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:12,240
that you have to have for this.

1362
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:13,560
As long as you have all the classes,

1363
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:14,520
we could have done that.

1364
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:15,840
But we chose no.

1365
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:20,300
We've held this standard for, theoretically,

1366
01:02:20,300 --> 01:02:22,680
since 1882 for GFR.

1367
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,480
So we're going to maintain that standard.

1368
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,240
We'll carry this for a little while.

1369
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,000
And we're going to stay internal because we

1370
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,600
wanted to invest in the people that were already there.

1371
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,100
So that's why we chose to do that.

1372
01:02:34,100 --> 01:02:36,520
But that was a huge lift.

1373
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,180
Obviously, we haven't started our 2472s yet.

1374
01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:41,020
But we're trying to get in front of the issues

1375
01:02:41,020 --> 01:02:43,240
that Boyden and Gainesville had.

1376
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,920
We're going to exhaust our promotional list in January

1377
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,320
for the cabins and drivers and get them riding in those seats

1378
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:50,080
a year prior.

1379
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,200
At least they have a year of experience under their belt.

1380
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:53,960
What they're going to do in the meantime

1381
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,640
is they're going to offset all the Kelly Day people that

1382
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,400
are off and also PTO and PTOU vacancies.

1383
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,420
If we have any extras and driver and captain,

1384
01:03:02,420 --> 01:03:04,000
they're going to go to a station that

1385
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,160
has a tanker and brush truck.

1386
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:06,640
And your most senior driver and captain

1387
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,080
is going to man the tanker or brush

1388
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,960
while the other one is getting actual seat time.

1389
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,200
The fourth locker, big deal.

1390
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:13,860
That was one of the biggest discussions.

1391
01:03:13,860 --> 01:03:16,600
And we were negotiating from our members.

1392
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,320
Of course, what are we going to do?

1393
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,480
We don't have four refrigerators.

1394
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:22,440
That gear sheds.

1395
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:23,560
That's another one, too.

1396
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:24,720
Where are you going to store your gear?

1397
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,440
Are we going to put it in the bays where our diesel exhaust is

1398
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:28,360
blowing all over again?

1399
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,280
OK, well now we're taking two steps back.

1400
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:31,880
So just trying to figure out all those issues

1401
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:32,760
before we get there.

1402
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,400
Obviously, we know there's going to be speed bumps.

1403
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,440
But I think, once again, it comes back

1404
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,840
to having a collaborative relationship between labor

1405
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,480
and management and figuring out what those issues are,

1406
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,080
trying to be in Osier-Dames and seeing before they get here,

1407
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,920
and find a way that works for both of us to figure it out

1408
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,920
and overcome them.

1409
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:53,520
Brilliant.

1410
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:55,920
Well, I want to open the floor to questions in a second.

1411
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:57,600
I've got one more question for you guys.

1412
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,120
I'm going to skip you this time, Joel.

1413
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:01,360
Success.

1414
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:02,320
What are you seeing?

1415
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:03,680
Comradery.

1416
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,640
I mean, all the things.

1417
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:07,800
Some of the things are tangible.

1418
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,160
Obviously, you mentioned overtime reductions and things.

1419
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,040
But even it's funny, even in the sleep world,

1420
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,960
the metric is still sleepiness.

1421
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,320
There is no actual measurable slide roll for sleep

1422
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:18,360
deprivation.

1423
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,600
But happiness, time with families, et cetera.

1424
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,640
What are you seeing now as far as that in your workforce?

1425
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,040
So it's interesting, because before we started,

1426
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,560
we had very little member participation

1427
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:34,560
in any benevolent, any off-duty events, any of these things.

1428
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,040
We had very, very poor participation.

1429
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:39,960
Plus, right around the same time,

1430
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,880
we completely went to a new behavioral health program,

1431
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,400
which was a game changer for us.

1432
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,560
It's the primer within the fire service.

1433
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,640
And I would, any of you that want information on it,

1434
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:50,920
reach out.

1435
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,680
But it was seeing the participation of our members.

1436
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,480
And then when they were participating,

1437
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,080
they're much happier.

1438
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,240
You walk around in the stations, and everyone's on Cloud 9.

1439
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,760
Everybody's proud to work for our fire department.

1440
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,360
When you go to other stations, you go to other departments,

1441
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,640
we go to these events, everyone is starting to say, wow,

1442
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,600
wow, the name of Boynton is becoming,

1443
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,920
they're proud, because they see all the work that we're

1444
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,200
doing within the department.

1445
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:18,760
And so they're proud to be there,

1446
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,440
because they see labor and management,

1447
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,760
as we keep harping on, is working together so well

1448
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:29,280
that morale is at an all-time high.

1449
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,440
Yeah, I'll echo that.

1450
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,680
This was something that both labor and management

1451
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:35,800
worked on together.

1452
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,960
And labor and management doesn't agree on everything.

1453
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,520
But the fact that this is something that both worked on

1454
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,800
and achieved, I think, meant a lot to the firefighters.

1455
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,720
And so they viewed that, since there

1456
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:52,760
wasn't an opposing side of this from labor and management,

1457
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,520
they were really appreciative of that benefit

1458
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,920
that the city commission chose to be able to give them.

1459
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,520
So morale increased.

1460
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:06,360
I started instantly hearing about this concept

1461
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,920
called the ghost shift, which is a shift that the other shift

1462
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:13,000
never touches.

1463
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:14,800
Previously, it was always a shift.

1464
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:17,320
Or whoever that shift that you relieved,

1465
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,720
it was always their fault. Now everybody

1466
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:24,720
blames the ghost shift as the one that completely causes

1467
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,120
all the problems in the department.

1468
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:30,000
But the change was palpable.

1469
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,440
Before we actually pulled the trigger,

1470
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,720
I went into the stations as much as possible, talked to everybody.

1471
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:40,080
And then for the actual first four days,

1472
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,600
I showed back up to see people.

1473
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,800
And whenever I would see them come back on on that fourth day,

1474
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,120
it was like a pressure relief valve had just went off.

1475
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,320
And it was an instantaneous change

1476
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,240
that I saw from that extra recovery time.

1477
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,760
And a couple of months later, that's still there.

1478
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,680
I think I mentioned it.

1479
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,560
I have one unit that runs 6,000 calls a year.

1480
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:12,440
And on the 2448, it just wasn't sustainable.

1481
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:14,920
We had a peak time unit that we brought in

1482
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:16,720
to be able to assist them.

1483
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:20,360
And half of the calls were after midnight.

1484
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:24,840
And after we moved to the 2472, I went back in

1485
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,600
and was like, I'm going to get you know,

1486
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,720
we lost the peak time unit for funding issues.

1487
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:29,840
And I'm like, I'm going to work on this.

1488
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:30,840
I'm going to get it back.

1489
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,840
And they were like, it would be nice.

1490
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:35,640
But it was sustainable for them now.

1491
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:37,080
So that was a big change.

1492
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,240
That was the win.

1493
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:42,120
I think so far for us, it's a success.

1494
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,360
The morale in our agency is night and day

1495
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,360
from where we were two years ago.

1496
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,480
The recruitment and retention is also night and day

1497
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,520
from where we were two years ago.

1498
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:52,600
The house that I work out of, we're busy.

1499
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:54,000
Last year, the engine ran 20.

1500
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,200
Both rescues ran 23 apiece.

1501
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:01,000
So the guys at my station, every day, it's, I can't wait.

1502
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,640
I can't wait till January 26 when we have that 2472,

1503
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,560
that extra day off.

1504
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:08,960
So now we just have to maintain and continue to get

1505
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,600
to the point where we can keep this program going

1506
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:13,400
and make it be successful.

1507
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:18,640
But right now, it's proven to be a success for our agency.

1508
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:19,680
Beautiful.

1509
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,800
Well, just to round up, and then I

1510
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,760
want to open it to questions.

1511
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:25,640
For the people that say it will never happen,

1512
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,280
they'll never go for it, we have Gainesville, Boynton Beach,

1513
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:33,880
Pascoe, Destin, Miramar, Palm Beach Gardens, Palm Beach

1514
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:34,560
County.

1515
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,400
So you have large and small.

1516
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,520
You have county, you have city.

1517
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,320
So what's beautiful is they'll never go for it.

1518
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:42,240
Well, they did.

1519
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:43,280
And they made it happen.

1520
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,560
And I think what's exciting for me

1521
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,520
is you can turn tragedy into triumph

1522
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,320
because this recruitment crisis has forced

1523
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:51,120
us to have this conversation.

1524
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:52,640
And now it's kind of a race.

1525
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,280
I live in Marion County.

1526
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,200
We have the Florida State Fire College where I live.

1527
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:59,280
The county that protects my family at the moment

1528
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:01,600
hasn't entertained this conversation yet.

1529
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,600
So every young, bright firefighter

1530
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:06,920
that would be responding to my family in their worst day

1531
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:08,760
is going to Gainesville instead.

1532
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,720
So this is obviously going to force this whole conversation

1533
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,760
because, as I said to people, if you really want to be blunt,

1534
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:17,960
you can either be at the helm of the ship

1535
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:20,760
when you turned it around and be the hero,

1536
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:22,960
or you can be at the helm when it sinks.

1537
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,240
So I hope the courage of these departments

1538
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,000
kind of inspires you to make that courageous decision

1539
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:28,520
yourself.

1540
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,960
Here we are.