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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

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In an effort to give back, Thorne is now offering you an ongoing 35% off each and every one of your purchases of their incredible nutritional solutions.

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Now Thorne is the official supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic, the Human Performance Project and multiple special operations organizations.

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I myself have used them for several years and that is why I brought them on as a sponsor.

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Some of my favorite products they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their Whey Protein, the Super EPA and their most recently, Cinequel.

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As a firefighter, a stuntman and a martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma and sleep deprivation and Cinequel is their latest brain health supplement.

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Now to qualify for the 35% off, go to Thorne.com, T-H-O-R-N-E.com. Click on sign in and then create a new account.

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You will see the opportunity to register as a first responder or member of military.

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When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX. You simply choose a profession, provide one piece of documentation and then you are verified for life.

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From that point onwards, you will continue to receive 35% off through Thorn.

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00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:36,000
Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10, behind the shield 10, for a one time purchase.

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show Army Reservist Veteran, former Chinook Crew Chief, TBI Survivor and the founder of Handicapin, Zeke Crozier.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the reserves, responding to the earthquake in Pakistan, his deployments in Afghanistan, Uganda, his near fatal injuries in a helicopter crash, extortion 17, therapy through art and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:48,000
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Zeke Crozier. Enjoy.

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00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:20,000
This episode is brought to you by Thorn and I have some incredible news for any of you that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

20
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:32,000
In an effort to give back, Thorn is now offering you an ongoing 35% off each and every one of your purchases of their incredible nutritional solutions.

21
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:44,000
Now Thorn is the official supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic, the Human Performance Project and multiple special operations organizations.

22
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:58,000
I myself have used them for several years and that is why I brought them on as a sponsor. Some of my favorite products they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their Whey Protein, the Super EPA and then most recently, Cinequel.

23
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:08,000
As a firefighter, a stuntman and a martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma and sleep deprivation and Cinequel is their latest brain health supplement.

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00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:15,000
Now to qualify for the 35% off, go to Thorn.com.

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Click on sign in and then create a new account. You will see the opportunity to register as a first responder or member of military.

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00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:33,000
When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX. You'll simply choose a profession, provide one piece of documentation and then you are verified for life.

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From that point onwards, you will continue to receive 35% off through Thorn.

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00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:48,000
Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10, behind the shield 10, for a one time purchase.

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00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:58,000
Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, Army Reservist Veteran, former Chinook Crew Chief, TBI Survivor and the founder of Handicapin, Zeke Crozier.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the reserves, responding to the earthquake in Pakistan, his deployments in Afghanistan, Uganda, his near fatal injuries in a helicopter crash, extortion 17, therapy through art and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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00:05:48,000 --> 00:06:00,000
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find. And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.

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00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:11,000
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:36,000
So with that being said, I introduce to you Zeke Crozier. Enjoy.

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Well Zeke, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, James, thanks for having me on here, man. We've talked for, we've been connected for how long, man, a long time, right? On social media, yeah.

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Yes, sir. So never officially met, I don't believe, but it's nice to be on here. Thanks for having me on here. So where are we finding you on planet Earth today?

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I'm on, I'm in Florida, Bradenton, Florida, currently. I've been here for a little over two years. Made it through these hurricanes, man. Hopefully we're done for the season.

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Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, so you were closer to, which one came across? Was it Helene? No, no, Milton came across by you, didn't it?

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Milton, yeah, we were right in the eye of it. Yeah, it came clear. Nailed us for sure.

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Did you do okay though?

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Yeah, I considered how others, you know, were impacted. I think we're pretty blessed. Just small repairs to the house, the truck obviously got tore up, but those things are replaceable. So other than that, we're good.

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Absolutely. Yeah, a friend of mine lives in Indian River and they had tornadoes spin off the hurricane and that decimated his area. So that's the thing, I think, with some of these, these hurricanes, if you're not right by the ocean, sometimes the hurricane itself can be okay, but it's the tornadoes that do the real damage.

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Oh yeah, there were significant amount of tornadoes that this go around, especially on the other side of Florida. I mean, they got hit real hard with those things. So I'm from the Midwest though. I mean, I'm from Kansas and Missouri. So I feel like I can deal with tornadoes. I'm familiar with them anyway.

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You throw in water in there and all of a sudden I'm not good at that kind of stuff. But that's part of Florida.

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Well, there's no basements to hide in Florida either.

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Exactly. That's my thing. They give me somewhere to hide.

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All right. Well, let's start at the very beginning of your timeline then. So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Sure. So I was born and raised in Kansas City, Kansas, KU Medical Center. I was number two in line of four brothers. So I was the second oldest.

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From that point, we moved out to Missouri. I lived in a very, very small town. And when I say small town, Mount Moriah. So if anybody's from Bethany, Missouri, it's I-35 North from Kansas City.

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And so that was fairly small at the time too. But so east of Bethany, a place called Mount Moriah, population was 45 when I lived there.

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I went back about three or four years ago actually to relocate it, show my youngest son the area. And I took a picture next to the sign that says 89 now.

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So it's doubled in size over 20 years. So that's where I gained my values. I feel like being an independent individual, overcoming things, adversity within myself, not expecting anybody else to save the day.

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So four brothers and my older brother was a Marine. And I kind of followed his footsteps. I wanted to be a Marine, but they couldn't guarantee me a position.

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And so I went to the Army side. And if I get ahead of you, you let me know because I'm just going along with the flow. But if I don't get to it, they say...

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I'll pull you back to your chart. I'd like to spend a little bit of time there. So firstly, population of 45, the phrase, it takes a village, I think is something that we've kind of got away from, especially in suburban and urban areas where there's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of us yet.

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We're not always connected. So the old school tribe and then the historic village, whether it's in the UK or here in the US, that community was very important. With a population of 45, what was that community element in your town?

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Very small. You know, the cool thing was, and again, it's like a dream. It's been what? 30, I guess 35 years ago. So it's been a long time. And of course, I got hit in the head too. So my memory is not the greatest.

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But I do recall, just by looking at pictures, it kind of brings it back for me. And I do recall just being so independent and rely on no one, really just yourself and what's around you and things like that. But typical, like you can make a walk to the neighbor's house and they just drop everything to help you get you the shirt off your back.

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That's what it is. It was a community that you may not see this person or talk to this person, but just having everybody came together and helped each other, you know, just self-reliant and hardworking. There were no excuses. You didn't have any excuses. Who are you going to complain to, right?

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So I remember going up like that. We had to go pick weeds all the time. We had a garden. We had one cow in our backyard. We had pigs, chickens, things like that. So you knew what you had. It was a structured environment. You knew what you were waking up to do. And there wasn't about what am I going to get to go do? What kind of fun things am I going to go experience today?

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It was just the necessities, like what was necessary to survive. That's what it was all about. And I don't recall any like fighting, arguing, anything like that with neighbors, individuals. I don't recall that growing up anyway. So I just, to me, it's survival at its best is what it was.

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What were your parents doing profession-wise?

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So my parents were never married. So my dad lived in Kansas City. My mom was remarried. And my mom worked on a pig farm. I just watched her work so, so hard to provide. And so she did it. She had a computer desk. And then, you know, to make more money, she went and worked at a pig farm where she would come home just a mess, a wreck, because she would have to like kill pigs that came out that weren't, you know, properly...

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Like some had their head was twisted or whatever. Their body wasn't... Basically they were, they needed to be, you know, taken out. So she had to, I remember she would say she had to take it by the feet and slap their heads down like, man, this is so graphic just the way she explained it. But just watching my mom work her ass off essentially, it was just, it was inspirational just to watch that.

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And then her husband at the time, he was a school bus driver slash mechanic. And so he was he was also a Marine earlier in his time as well. So maybe that was the inspiration for me as well watching that. But just just seeing that if things had to get accomplished, you weren't going to rely on anybody else walking within.

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What about sports and exercise? What were you playing and doing back then?

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I did baseball. I didn't get to play baseball at a young, young age, but I did. I did get to start when I was a, you know, I was a seventh grade, sixth and seventh grade, I played baseball. And I was really good. I didn't know that until there was a scout that picked me up and came and sat down. I remember having him coming and sitting down with my mom and my stepdad saying this guy is good. We want to be on our traveling team, but my parents couldn't afford it.

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Okay, so with anything I like other sports too, but being told that hey, you're good at this, you should continue this. And that's what I did. So I played a lot of baseball as a left handed pitcher. I had a really good arm. And my older brother didn't play sports. And my younger two brothers didn't play sports at the time. So I was just the only guy playing sports. And but I really enjoyed baseball.

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What about career aspirations? What were you dreaming of becoming when you were in the high school age?

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I did like art. And I knew business was necessary as well. But growing up, I was really in tune with architectural engineering. I like the models of the stadiums or larger buildings. They would have on display, you'd see those, I wanted to build those. I liked how intricate and detailed they were. And I got to use my hands. And then the creative part of your mind going along with that.

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I know you went into the military after 9 11. So how old were you when that happened? And then talk to me about that day through your eyes.

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So I was a junior in high school. I was actually at gym, I believe, when that happened. And they all set us and announced that. And then I had already been working a couple years now, my mom and that that man that she was married to get got a divorce and in my freshman year in high school.

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And all I knew is I went into like a survival mode again, right? My mom was depressed, couldn't work, couldn't provide, and they were getting a divorce. And so she took off and I went with her and she couldn't pay the bills. So I went to work.

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I worked as a sonnet and I worked at doing flat work. And so I worked my tail off while going to school. My you know, all through high school. And so I started paying all the bills. My mom couldn't do it. So I was doing I was paying all the bills, which granted the money went a lot farther at that time.

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And you could get a nice small apartment and it wasn't a big deal. So still I was doing that. And so

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junior high school at this point, and I'm watching this and I'm like, I want to join the military. I want to take care of this, you know, and, you know, serve my country and do what I can to protect those things right there.

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But bring me back in James, I lose my train of thought when I start rolling like that. I'm very honest about what happens. It's hard for me to stay on track like this for too long.

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No problem at all. Not an issue. So you're working, you know, as you're going through high school, what impact, you know, what do you remember of that day? And then you mentioned about the military. So let's start with that first.

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So talk to me about watching, you know, what unfolded on 9-11 and then how that kind of sowed a seed for your military career.

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Sure. Thank you for doing that. So yeah, watching it, like listening, hearing that on, you know, at school, going home, sitting in front of the TV and watching this.

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I know they talked about people that were that were diagnosed with PTSD and had mental health struggles just watching this on TV. You know what I mean?

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It's definitely guarded nowadays, I think, to some extent. But just watching all that, it just made me angry. But I wanted to do something about it.

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But I talked about working at Sonic. I went to Sonic later that evening and I remember sitting there at work.

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No one was coming in to work just looking outside and watching the long, I mean, miles of cars waiting in line for fuel to get somewhere. It was chaotic.

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And and that I think all of that brought inspiration to me of like, hey, I needed this is my duty.

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This is my just talking to other people, hearing these things, knowing my brother was going off to be a Marine to protect our country, defend just the unity involved with all of that was absolutely inspirational.

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And that's what yeah, those are all different things I felt at that moment amongst that I can recall right now anyway.

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So was it after graduation that you you had your your kids initially?

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So, yes. So so OK, so I graduated 17 years old.

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And obviously, I had already learned that I could I could take care of bills, work, provide, be independent.

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My mom had moved on at that point with the guy that I set her up with, which they're still together this day.

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So I feel pretty good about that one. Right.

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And I went got an apartment on my own at 17 years old.

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I was turning 18 in July after graduating, so I got I was able to use my cell phone as my credit.

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They allowed that. And I got myself an apartment, started working again.

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I had a couple of different jobs for the apartment, tried to go to school.

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I go to school first thing in the morning. I was working overnight.

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And then I had my oldest child was born when I was 18, almost 19.

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And so at that time, once that happened, I was like, you know what? I have a duty at this point and responsibility on top of what I want to do with my country is also take care of my son.

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And so that's what pushed me. And I was like, this is this is I need to do this. I need to go enlist.

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I need to go find my way in the military so that I have a guaranteed, you know, respond like, you know, taking care of my responsibilities.

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And like I said, I went I went I went to talk to a marine recruiter because that's all I knew at the time.

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Right. I told you it was my brother and how he went through that. I was like, I want to do this.

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And then I was like, I don't I don't like I feel like there's there's more I can do here.

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And so nothing against me for, by the way, just at that time, I didn't want to be a grunt essentially.

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And I was like, so I wanted to see what the army could offer. I did a square very high on the as well.

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And and they said, do whatever you want to do. I said, well, teach me. I don't know. I don't know what to do.

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And they said, well, there's actually close to here. There's an aviation unit, a reserve unit.

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But there's an aviation unit you can serve, but also be close to your son.

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And so I was like, this is genius. So it was an active duty, which I had been, you know, that was what I wanted to do.

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But going there, I could always process, you know, move, move, I could, you know, cross over and go the active duty route at a later time.

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So I went to the to the reserve unit, the aviation unit in Gardner, Kansas.

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I mean, it's this is what I asked about your son initially, because I saw the documentary.

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I forget where I saw it now. But there's a great 40 minute piece on you.

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But I think that's admirable. You know, you want to serve, but you don't want to be at the expense of not being a present father.

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So you found the Army Reserve unit close to yourself.

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Yes, sir. I'm thanks for watching.

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By the way, you have patriot features that work. That's a Kansas City local, one individual.

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And he does all of that. And it's amazing. And he doesn't, you know, he puts out stories in document documentaries like that.

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But thanks for watching that, James. Yeah.

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And so, you know, the funny thing with recruiters, too, is like they were saying like this unit hasn't been deployed in years.

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And six months after I'm home from from basic and AIT, Pakistan has earthquake and we're deployed for the earthquake relief,

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which is a documentary on PBS called Kansas to Kandahar. And that was that was that, you know, that humanitarian mission to Pakistan.

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And so I was deployed, you know, wheels up to Pakistan. And from there, we went directly into Afghanistan for a full month, a full year tour.

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Well, let's talk about Pakistan first, because I saw that what you know, what were you faced with?

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I mean, there's a lot of people from Pakistan in the UK, you know, Pakistani English, I guess you'd say, or British.

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I don't know what the term would be. But a lot of families from India, Pakistan, that area.

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Again, it goes back to the empire. And so, you know, I grew up around those cultures.

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But what did you see as far as the country itself and the devastation from that particular earthquake?

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You know, and I was brand new in the military, too. So this was all new to me and just experiencing and just witnessing these types of devastation firsthand.

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And we got to be we hung out in the same hangar with the Australians, the Aussies.

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I got to connect with them and learn there, you know, those kind of individuals, amazing human beings, by the way.

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It's fun to learn different heritages in different different areas of the world. And it's just it's cool to experience that.

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But Pakistan was was kind of nerve wracking. It was a humanitarian mission. So we had no weapons.

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The weapons were locked up. And then that was also there's a lot of propaganda going on around that time.

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This was 2005, I believe, 2005, late 2005.

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And so whatever was going around like newspapers, propaganda was going on.

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These guys were trying to storm the front gates to come to come on.

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And and we're sitting there going like we're stuck in a hangar in Kaseem.

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And and so and we started to go back in through town in a little vehicles to go, you know, pick up the, you know, go through the connexes from the ships that they brought over, you know, our things and, you know, the equipment, things like that.

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And so I have pictures and forgive me because the hard thing about this, my memory is recalling the things that I experienced and went through.

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So thankfully, I have documentaries, pictures, videos, people that can that can help me with reminding you to remember these things.

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But for myself, it's difficult to retrieve all these things from my mind.

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But I do recall being pulled over and being in Pakistan.

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It's not like you have cops following around saying you for your speed limit.

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There's that they have locals in the middle of the street with whistles, you know, with wearing their uniforms and they they'd wave you down.

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They'd wave you down and say, you know, you're speeding.

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And so you'd have to pull over and our driver was speeding and he got pulled over.

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And then we have and then you have our our bus, our small bus is full of guys and uniforms, guys and girls in uniforms.

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And so all of a sudden, as soon as they figure out that there's people or there's there's military uniforms, U.S. military uniforms, now all the other community, the people, the crowds start coming around the bus.

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And so I remember one of our guys, the officer, had a bag full of cash and he had to pay the guy to let us go, basically move forward, whatever it takes to get going.

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So that was nerve wracking for me being a young American soldier and experiencing those.

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I think I was 20, 20 or 21 at the time, I think 20 actually.

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So just nerve wracking. It was and just to see the different environments driving in the streets and looking outside.

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You got pigs, hogs hanging upside down. I'm sure this is normal in a third world country.

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But for me, being a young individual to experience it was different.

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What do you remember, if anything, about rescues during that time?

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Because I think when we talk about the military and obviously we'll get to Afghanistan in a minute when it comes to reporting, obviously the focus is on combat.

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But as I've learned now from over a thousand interviews, there's so much kindness and compassion that happens through our military members.

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So with that earthquake response, do you remember any rescues or moments of kindness and compassion on that part?

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I do. I remember seeing pictures and videos. For me, so I went in as a 15 uniform. I was a mechanic.

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So my time in Pakistan was spent back and forth working on building up the aircraft or building up the kind of equipment and then being back at the at the Casim at the hangar at the base there and just building.

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So I got to watch them leave and then I would see them come back and I would see pictures and videos.

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And so just watching it seemed like just the so many different videos of people that are happy and shocked.

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Like this is Americans. And so maybe you'd see all these guys waving when our choppers would come in and they'd be hovering, dropping water, pallets of water and food and these things.

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And you see all these locals just like running over to hug and almost dangerous because the front of the hangar or the front of the rotor wash, the blades being that low could tear people up.

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So I just watching those things and seeing that again, I'm going to use the documentary again. I'm actually in it a few times.

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I don't recognize myself very well. Just witnessing all those that are going on and the feedback and feeling like you're making a difference.

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Right. That's what we all I guess where we get our cup filled with everything is seeing it and believing you're making a difference in some way.

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Yeah, I mean, I don't remember exactly. Again, this is what this is what's hard for me is getting hit in the head.

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Socks. I don't remember an exact moment because I didn't I didn't live that moment.

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Essentially, I got to witness the after effects of, you know, after our guys would go out there and fly and drop these things down.

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So but I'm proud of I'm proud to be a part of it. Right. I'm proud to be to know that I was taking care.

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I was maintaining the helicopters and doing my part within that mission.

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See that there's such a kind of duality to that, because when I've had people on that have talked a lot about the Taliban, Afghanistan, even, you know, Afghan natives on the show,

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they talk about how a lot of the Taliban actually began in Pakistan, and that's where the other fighters would go back over the border. So you've got these U.S.

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soldiers in the middle of this conflict who are helping the the the Pakistani people whilst on the border.

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Those are the same combatants that you're fighting. Yeah, that was and that was looking back.

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That's it's kind of nerve wracking to know that we were there, but we heard that before that. That's where Ben Long was at.

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I was part of the VIP mission afterwards and went back to the embassy to celebrate.

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Again, I don't recall exactly. I just have vivid, you know, memories of all those things.

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This has been years ago, too. But yeah, I mean, that's to know who's good and who's bad and who are you talking to around.

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And I learned we learned that firsthand, moving back, you know, moving into Afghanistan and watching guys that locals were there that were picked up to be brought on base.

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And those guys were actually communicating outside. So it is it's it's you know, you never know who's right, who's wrong, who's good, who's bad.

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And that we just followed. We just we just followed orders. That's all I remember doing.

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That's all I do. You know. So what do you remember about Afghanistan? Like you said, obviously, you're on the the mechanic side, you're servicing all these these imperative modes of transport for our military.

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That first deployment Afghanistan. What what were the kind of notable memories for you?

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So I remember it was somewhat cold. It was we arrived there in the in the winter, the cold time, I guess, is what it's called.

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We were in between between Bogom and then we moved.

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I was in Kandahar. Most of the most of that deployment was at 06 to 05 to 6.

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We're under 10th Mountain.

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Two ten or three ten. I don't recall. But just came to heart being you know, we were you know, IDF constantly. I was part of I became part of the the QRF for on the maintenance side.

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It became the same thing every day. Just walking. I remember we lived next to the ship pond.

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And then just walking through that the smell just we'd walk outside after showering and just the wind would blow and be stuck with all the sand and shit.

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Constant ticks going on. Not sleeping well. I know we got hit right next to our our building and

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just trying to put all this in the words is difficult. I just know that I got thrown a bunch of all of us, our entire building got thrown because of a mortar that hit, you know, maybe what 50, 50 yards from us.

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Just just just going out and just looking at it when where that hit and knowing we had guys and girls taken out constantly from that kind of stuff.

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And it's I mean, it was scary. I got issues after that. First of all, just from the stuff just just from witnessing those things so close hand and

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I don't know how to put it in words, James. It's like I have a difficult time. I guess I've never really processed what I experienced there.

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I really only think about what I experienced on my my next appointment. And that's that's what's made me who I am today. So I guess hopefully people that are watching this see the struggle I'm having with putting this into words.

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And once they find out what happened to me, maybe it'll make more sense. It's not that I'm an idiot that I that I didn't experience these things. Right.

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It's a matter of I have a hard time getting it out and putting it into words. It's just very difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Now you trust me.

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You're one of many people that have had massive TBIs and one of them, Joe Lowry, who's a Green Beret. You mentioned 10th Mountain.

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I forget which which group he was a part of. But I mean, he was a massive, massive TBI. You know, and so, yeah, I think people need to hear this.

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This is the this is the the impact. And as we as I know, you talk about and we'll get to, you know, when you have a head injury and you look OK and you've got all your limbs, you know, people are kind of like, oh, well, he's fine.

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But obviously, whether it's a physiological impact from a helicopter crash or whether it's a psychological impact from being mortared and, you know, having satin sand and shit sprayed all over you and three of your people are blown up, whatever happened.

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I mean, that's a big part, too. And it's funny because you said about the next deployment. Well, we're we're a sum total of all the things.

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So the inability to remember some of that stuff that happened is probably also a challenge for for healing because some of that stuff probably does need to be addressed as well.

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Right. And that's part of therapy and going through the process. Right. I'm only focused on what I think is my problem and things that when you have multiple scenarios and situations that you had to endure and go through.

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It's something I may not even be aware of that affected me in my first deployment. You know, just the reality of it all.

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Maybe being away from my son at the same time. You know what I mean?

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Like I there's just a lot that goes on and and just trying to make sense of it all.

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We were very blessed, though, on that first deployment, even under three.

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I want to say it was three ten, which either one was two ten, three ten.

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And then the next deployment was the opposite. But we had an amazing, you know, deployment with with no significant.

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We didn't lose anybody, essentially. Right.

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You know, safety was was amazing. We had no accidents, things like that.

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So it was almost like looking back, it was almost like a cool experience to know that it was a good, positive, impactful deployment.

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And and then I got to be part of that and just see the success part of it.

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All the cool pictures and videos we have just watching all of our aircraft, multiple together up and flying.

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I wish I had pictures to send you just experiencing things like sandstorms. Right.

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Once I got to fly my next deployment, I got to be above those and look at them from the from the air.

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But when I was there on the first deployment, I've got a picture of you can see the the the line of Chinooks that are like out there.

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And they have a picture of me running out to one of the aircraft to close it up real quick because you see the sandstorm slowly coming in and creeping in.

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And that's that's an insane experience right there. You know what I mean?

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Just living inside of that for a moment and then having a picture to capture that on top of it.

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So, yeah, just living on the flight line like I did again, I don't speak the language anymore.

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I'm then on top of that. The things that I lost from that.

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But man, I did it. I did it. And there's there's evidence of it all that helps me feel better about it.

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You know what I mean? Absolutely. Well, speaking about interesting deployments, talk to me about Uganda.

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I thought I was going to die of all places. I thought I would die in Africa.

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And I say that because awesome experience again to go to a zoo, essentially.

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And all that divides you between like a lion is a chain link fence.

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I'm lucky to be alive in that experience because I took a bottle of water up next to a chain link fence to give this line water.

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And then I touch it on its head. I've got a picture of me touching on what an idiot thing to do.

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It pulled me through the chain link fence. But I thought I was going to die not from that.

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I ended up getting an upper esthetics infection from our five star hotel that we stayed at.

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There was black mold in the wall. And so I got a real bad infection.

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And we didn't have the I guess they didn't have the antibiotics that I needed.

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So I had to wait. I remember four days for this medication to arrive before I could even start the process.

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But again, amazing experience to know that. And that's when I was converting to to the flight side.

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I was pressured by you know, we were losing losing guys and I become a really, really, you know, great squad leader and leader.

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And and and so they're like, you got to come on the flight. I was like, man, I don't want to fly.

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I didn't think I wanted to fly. And but having a couple of flights there was like, this is pretty cool.

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And just watching, you know, us at the time we were there, we were we were moving, you know, doctors.

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We were allowing individuals there, locals that had never seen like a doctor or been given any kind of, you know,

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attention medically, an opportunity to make friends and see like who we are and how we're there, you know, whether to help.

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So just again, firsthand, seeing that, believing it, feeling that it was it was motivating, inspirational.

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And and it made me feel good about what I was doing. But, you know, being there with the United States in Africa.

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Well, you mentioned about getting into the flying side. So talk to me about the role.

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What is a hooker and then what were the kind of roles and responsibilities within the aircraft?

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Yeah, so I will say part of my my injury, part of my therapy was they would go through like PID.

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I didn't find parts of the helicopter and because that was something I did. I did that for nine years and I couldn't.

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I couldn't I couldn't recall. I'm like I would say if you gave me a multiple choice, I could pick the answer.

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But retrieving it and trying to remember the name of it, I can't get it.

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And it's it's so nerve, you know, it's it's depressing at times because it's very frustrating to be able to do that.

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But basically, it's our progression. You progress through multiple steps until you become a flight engineer and just learning these calling sling loads,

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learning the part of emergency procedures, memorizing everything like that.

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Basically, they would say that it's our helicopter. We just let the pilots fly it.

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And and you believe that whenever it's time for we're done flying for a certain amount of time and then the pilots get off and they go walk away.

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They clean up and take care of the rest. But but it's part of it.

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You know, I mean, it's crew coordination. It's learning how to communicate.

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Again, I think it's an awesome way to learn how to communicate in real life, too, you know, in the civilian side, because they can't see and you can't.

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And you're trusting each other. You know, everything is within each other and those guys next to you.

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So just learning the process, understanding the process was a cool experience. Very difficult. It's not for everybody.

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But so the hooker, that's what everybody in the community, that's what they call it. They call it.

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They call us hookers. There's three sling loads. And obviously, they, you know, they're there for multiple reasons.

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But, man, it's it's the horse. It's it's the fastest helicopter.

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It's to me, I'm obviously biased with the coolest helicopter.

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I think everybody wants to be in that community. I think right, because I was in it.

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I didn't want to be a black hot guy. No offense to anybody else. But but I didn't.

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That wasn't like a dream of mine. You know what I mean? So like to be in the Shadook side, I'm lucky that I got to experience that.

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So what was the difference? I mean, obviously now you're in the air.

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But apart from that, what was the difference about the second Afghanistan deployment prior to the crash?

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Flying, flying for sure. And it being the first deployment, I was a maintainer working nights, some days, but mostly nights working.

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So being on the ground at the hangar and listening into the radio chatter. Right.

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The second deployment is I'm actually flying and I'm in it. And and I remember every night being stressful, every day being stressful and scary.

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I'm not afraid to say that. Like I was afraid for my life multiple times flying.

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We were at a shank. That's where we were in the second deployment. And and it was a bad place to be.

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It was scary as hell. And then just getting hit. You know, you know, our flight line was getting hit with IDF.

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And then it was real war. You know what I mean? I think people are maybe too tough to talk of it like that.

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But I did it and I was injured. And so my whole mindset, my my perspective changes incredibly because of that.

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I heard you again in the documentary credit to them. And it was, as you said, a really well made piece of film as well.

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Explain to me the labeling of extortion 17.

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Obviously that that is known for a tragic incident that happened later on.

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But explain to me the kind of labeling so people understand that.

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Yeah. And I get this is such a sensitive topic.

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And and and I it's hard for me to explain it for multiple reasons.

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I get emotionally thinking about it because it's something I don't even want to be attached to.

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Right. It's not like I'm trying to be something I'm not. It's something I'm attached to.

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And it's I feel like it's my duty. I'm wearing a shirt right here that represents it.

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Thirty one heroes. And but it's real.

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So extortion is a call sign that we created when our group got there.

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Our unit was there and we all remember sitting in the in the in the talk talking.

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We were all voting on what was going to be our call sign or the name.

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And extortion is what was voted on.

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And the one seven number from again, I'm retelling somebody else's terms because I don't recall it exactly.

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But from my understanding, it's the one seven is how many ships are out that night.

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And then the number the first number. So there was like seven, I guess, is what at least seven.

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And then the number one is the order of like we had Buddy Lee was the pilot and he was our FOB commander for our unit.

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So he was number one in order.

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And so from my understanding, we originally manifested as extortion one six.

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And and I guess they changed at any given time there were changes. And so we did we did take off as one seven.

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And so that was our call sign for that flight would mean nothing at all if it wasn't for this other helicopter crash, by the way.

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There wouldn't be that meaning there because in our crash, no one died.

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Although there were we'll get to that point. So then the meaning behind that is also that they didn't retire the call sign because no one died.

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And then what are the chances of happens again with the same exact call sign?

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I don't think anybody expected something like that to happen, but to live with it and to there's such a connection.

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It's a sensitive connection to so many different people, individuals that are attached to the lost people, that new people, that friends and family in the United States.

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And then you bring in me, who's a survivor, essentially of a miracle, a miraculous recovery.

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And then I'm walking around and I walk around, I'm traveling, telling my story.

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And I talk about this and people look at me as if I'm trying to be somebody I'm not, essentially.

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And it's like because they don't know there was a first extortion one seven crash. Right.

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That's what that's what's like. I'm trying to prove to people that this actually happened, that I'm the guy that everyone thought died on the ramp.

317
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,000
And it's difficult. It's difficult because I don't want to be that person.

318
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,000
I don't even want to be like just eliminate extortion one seven altogether for me when I talk. Right.

319
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:20,000
And just look at I'm a human being. I was a soldier and I was in a helicopter crash and look at my look at my recovery.

320
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,000
Right. I don't need to be attached to something I'm not.

321
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:29,000
It's just so it's hard coming from me, from my mouth when people have different views, especially being reservists.

322
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,000
Right. And you've got the active duty guys that were there. They were like, well, they were just reservists.

323
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,000
And so they minimize it again. Like it's a contest. I don't like contests. I'm not like that. OK.

324
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:46,000
So if you have to feel that, then you feel that. But that's it gets really nerve wracking trying to it because emotional.

325
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:54,000
It's like, man, I just I'm just doing me right. I'm just trying to be my the best person I can, but also honor the fallen so that they're never forgotten.

326
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:59,000
Yeah. Well, I think I'm glad that we're having this conversation because firstly, people now can understand that.

327
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:04,000
Secondly, you mentioned, buddy, he was killed. Sorry. Brian Nichols was killed, wasn't he?

328
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,000
He was on your crew and then killed in the second one. Is that correct?

329
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,000
Yes, sir. Yeah. So I mean, these all tie in together.

330
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:19,000
So I think it's important that we, you know, the laymen do understand exactly what the difference was and what happened between each of those two events.

331
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:25,000
Yeah, I appreciate the platform and the willingness. The fact that you understand most of this because you've already watched it.

332
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,000
I really appreciate that. It means it means a whole lot.

333
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:36,000
I need help communicating things and I'm I'm I'm transparent enough to admit that to that.

334
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:46,000
I have a hard time. So any kind of assistance there is is extremely helpful and in grace, we all need grace and I need a lot of it.

335
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:52,000
So, yeah, you know, Brian Nichols is in the first crash. He was actually from our murder unit.

336
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:59,000
So I feel with him all the time. And what are the chances that he he's also on the second crash?

337
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,000
And he was supposed to come see me. I was in the hospital. I made it to Minneapolis, Minnesota.

338
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:10,000
And he was talking to my my wife at that time. His wife and my wife were talking because he wanted to come back and see me.

339
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:19,000
He had my helmet and my my tail that he was going to bring back to me. And I just remember in the hospital seeing the news.

340
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,000
I got released to the Fisher House. That's where she was saying.

341
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:28,000
And I saw the newspaper with a chinook on the front of it. And I remember it said, I think it said you win.

342
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:34,000
It was a UN bird. I go, what? It was confusing to me because it didn't make sense for obvious reasons.

343
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,000
But they all were trying to hide it from me because they were afraid I was going to, you know,

344
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,000
plummet on my on my recovery because I was making huge gains and progressing.

345
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:49,000
And so just seeing that and finally, because I was making so much of a big deal about it.

346
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,000
And finally, they, you know, Kirk was the guy that was on the bird as well. He was my mentor.

347
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:01,000
He was on the fly on the phone with him because he was the other guy that got medevaced with me.

348
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:10,000
And I remember being on the phone with him and he was like, yeah, that was our guys. And it sucked.

349
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:22,000
It sucked because all the all the support I was getting from all the, you know, our unit, the family members as well.

350
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,000
All of a sudden, it felt like it didn't matter about me anymore. And I took myself out of that as well.

351
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:35,000
Right. I was like, my recovery doesn't matter at this point because it's on it's on everybody else

352
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:44,000
because in the family members that are there because these guys are gone now.

353
00:46:44,000 --> 00:47:02,000
It's tough. Well, let's get to your one because I mean, I can just imagine, you know, you're you're recovering from that.

354
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:09,000
And this happens. And I'm sure there's a kind of survivor's guilt element to it, even though these obviously were two separate groups of people.

355
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:18,000
But, you know, the fact that you selflessly in the middle of your recovery felt like, you know, all of a sudden, I don't deserve this attention.

356
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,000
It speaks to, again, that selflessness that you have, the selflessness that you have.

357
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:29,000
But this is, you know, that brotherhood and sisterhood that we have in the first responder professions you have in the military.

358
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,000
But let's get to your event because it was significant. And yes, you did not die.

359
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,000
But you've had a lifelong change in your physicality and in your cognition now.

360
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:45,000
So June 25th, 2011, talk to me about the work up for that, you know, what you were supposed to be doing.

361
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,000
And then let's talk about the event itself. Yeah.

362
00:47:49,000 --> 00:48:05,000
So I remember they had a meeting and brought us in and they said, we're going to go on this five day mission to the job at Infill, Exfill, resupply, move some guys around.

363
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:11,000
And so I remember then they pulled me. They said, yes, we're going to call ourselves the A team.

364
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,000
I was I was I felt really good about that. I was like, man, these guys believe in me.

365
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:20,000
And I'm, you know, I'm making a lot of gains and progressing and I'm doing the right things.

366
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,000
And I felt good about it. And being a jollof bad.

367
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:32,000
I remember the night we got there, the the AC and our tent went out and we were just up all all day.

368
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,000
And they finally moved us to a different building.

369
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,000
But just the time consumption just we're supposed to be sleeping, right.

370
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,000
Prepping to fly and just being up, couldn't sleep.

371
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,000
So I finally got to a place and was like, OK, so we got our eyes closed.

372
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,000
We're awake again. And then they called us.

373
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:57,000
We went to the child to get some food and they had the meeting, the briefing.

374
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:03,000
And I remember it was the weirdest, craziest thing because it was a young female.

375
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:08,000
I remember him saying we were supposed to like there should have always been like an NCO that briefed us.

376
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,000
And I feel like it was a PFC. It was a female PFC that briefed us.

377
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,000
The room was empty. Just us was there going. This doesn't make sense.

378
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,000
It was just very like casual. Here's your stuff. Here's your notes and go on your way.

379
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,000
And so we went back out to the flight line after and started getting the I started getting everything.

380
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:32,000
You know, ready to go. And and Buddy said, hey, let's get a picture.

381
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:38,000
And we never took pictures. I don't know just the way that all these things, the steps and how this happened worked out.

382
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:45,000
We never took pictures. And I had a camera in my uniform and my leg, the pants.

383
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:52,000
And we snapped a couple of photos. And that's that's the photo you see that's out there that's been used for both crashes.

384
00:49:52,000 --> 00:50:00,000
And we're buddy or, you know, Brian's on the far left and you got was it bunny Brian Nichols or not Brian Nichols Brooks,

385
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,000
then Kuykendall and myself and Kuykendall second. But either way, the all five of us on the ramp.

386
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:16,000
And then and then we loaded up, took off and went to pick up a bunch of ground guys, infantry guys,

387
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:26,000
and which I reconnected with them to this day. I reconnected with a bunch of them and we went and we were to drop them in.

388
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:32,000
And I remember we did a go around. I was on the ramp.

389
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:38,000
It was windy and the terrain we were going into was not flat. It was terrible.

390
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:51,000
I've got photos from the out, you know, a few clicks out from an aerial view and like it's the whole side of a mountain, trees everywhere.

391
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:59,000
And then you see the helicopter where we landed. It's insane that no one was killed in that.

392
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:11,000
I remember calling the trees for clearance, basically trees and going over the I'm on the ramp looking back at the six o'clock position.

393
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:16,000
And so we make it over. The blades are here. And I'm like, OK, you're clear the trees. You're clear to come down.

394
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:24,000
So I called clear to come down. I remember saying whether I lost ICS communication, I don't know.

395
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:31,000
But I remember saying RPG six o'clock position coming from the number two side.

396
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:39,000
Right. I thought I thought it missed us. And then I called small arms. I thought that also missed us.

397
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:45,000
So I didn't I don't I didn't even know that any of that happened until I've been retold these things looking back.

398
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:54,000
So and then the ground guys have statements where they heard it. They said that they heard us getting, you know, small arms.

399
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:59,000
Either way, we lost the number two engine. And that's that's the direction it was coming in.

400
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:04,000
But that's the last thing I actually like somewhat and confident about saying for myself.

401
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:14,000
After that, we dropped straight down. There's a recapture recount of of buddies, you know, view of this.

402
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,000
And there's a book called The Final Mission, Extortion, one seven.

403
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:23,000
That's about the heroes of the other crash, the true heroes. Right.

404
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:29,000
And because I'm part of the story, there's a recount of my crash in Chapter 11.

405
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:36,000
And Buddy talks about him and Brian Nichols and how they went and how Buddy just kept flying.

406
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:47,000
And that's why I'm grateful for them because of having a couple of amazing pilots that that we landed it perfectly flat on that that crazy ass terrain.

407
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:53,000
And and the fact that the aircraft did what it was supposed to do, the ass pylon rotated around.

408
00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:00,000
But it's like a canopter just peeled up the entire top of the of the the the airframe.

409
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:05,000
The fact that no one was killed, any of that is insane.

410
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:11,000
And I have my helmet and there's a straight, which is crazy to me to try to wonder what was that.

411
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:17,000
There's a straight line within the Kevlar of where I hit something.

412
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:24,000
I don't know what would have been that straight within the aircraft other than a blade, but I wouldn't have a head right now.

413
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:30,000
Yeah, I don't I don't know unless it was the ramp, but it would have been the side of the ramp on the outside.

414
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:36,000
I don't I don't know. Either way, I hit the right side of my head and that affects the opposite of the body.

415
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:41,000
So my whole left side, I lost motor skill function.

416
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:53,000
I'm knocked unconscious and I have a, you know, statements from the guys that were coming off the ramp all walking over me.

417
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:59,000
AJ Bidoy was the guy was two from me on the right side on the number two side.

418
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:08,000
I'm looking facing forward and he said, you know, he remembered watching me as we were going down and then.

419
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:14,000
I'm unconscious. Once he gets up, he said that he looked at me and he's like, Zeke's dead.

420
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:22,000
And he said he was like he walked over me and the first time I re-connected with him a few years ago and he lost it.

421
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:28,000
He broke down. He was like, he's like, man, I thought you were dead. I'm sorry.

422
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:33,000
It's you know, he's got to be sorry about right because he had a new mission at that point.

423
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,000
He he needed to take care, you know, and do what he's supposed to do to get off.

424
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:45,000
Make sure you clear to take care of your guys, pull security, get a perimeter and all those things that need to happen.

425
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:52,000
So I had to reassure him that man, let that guilt go right off the bat because, you know, because of you guys, I'm actually here live today.

426
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,000
You know what I mean? I wouldn't have been that back the way I need to be, you know, get gotten out of there.

427
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:06,000
So it's crazy that I even still go through this process of reliving it and retelling it.

428
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:11,000
And it's just as painful now as it is every other time when I talk about it, you know.

429
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:19,000
It's like it was yesterday, but I don't speak the language like I did yesterday. I don't speak the military jargon.

430
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,000
I don't have I have a hard time recalling the things that it's supposed to. It's not as smooth as reading a book.

431
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,000
You know what I mean? It's this is what I'm vomiting.

432
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:32,000
Basically, what I can put together in words to try to express it.

433
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:38,000
You're you're way more articulate than I think you give yourself credit for, just so you know, you're coming through very, very clearly.

434
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:46,000
So I'm sure it seems garbled to you, you know, compared to, like you said, when when you didn't have the TBI.

435
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:51,000
But, you know, you're you're storytelling perfectly, just so you know.

436
00:55:51,000 --> 00:56:00,000
I appreciate you saying that. Well, I guess the funny part about that, that's well, I'll make it funny anyway, is that when I was in the hospital,

437
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:07,000
I remember the doctor came over and he was talking to Lacey and myself and he said or she said,

438
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:14,000
You had a high IQ before. And so now you're just a regular guy. You're just average now.

439
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:23,000
I was like, damn, so I'm not I'm not I don't have a high IQ anymore. But I think that maybe that's part of it, of how I have back and why I'm so articulate.

440
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:30,000
Like I have I want to be very descriptive and be very truthful and honest about every detail that I have that I give.

441
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,000
I just have a hard time putting it together like most people do. Some people do.

442
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:39,000
Absolutely. Well, I've got a low IQ, so I can tell you I live fine with it.

443
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:46,000
I doubt that. I know. But thank you for trying to make me feel better. I see what you did.

444
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,000
So let's talk about after then. So firstly, you know, what what did the rescue look like?

445
00:56:51,000 --> 00:57:01,000
I mean, what have you heard as far as realizing you weren't dead and then and then the medevac crew and then getting you to was it Bagram that you went to initially?

446
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:13,000
Yes, Bagram. And then I was moved to Germany, Landstuhl. So just looking back and from what the the the excuse me,

447
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:19,000
what people have told me about what happened is that when they found me, they thought I was dead.

448
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:24,000
But so then they moved me away from the or no, no, that's what they did. They said they could hear me.

449
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:32,000
I was choking. I had blood coming out of my ear. They they split in my left leg. They thought it because they thought I broke it.

450
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,000
It was, you know, dislocated, whatever. But really, it was because I lost motor motor still function.

451
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:44,000
So it just was like all over the place. Regardless, they they split me, wrapped me up,

452
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,000
and then they moved me because they could hear me like choking essentially.

453
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:54,000
And then once they got me moved, I was like agonizing pain, screaming, yelling, whatever it was.

454
00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:02,000
I don't know just what they what they told me. And and so then they called in.

455
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:13,000
So I only flew and crewed 47 D helicopter airframe. And so I never got to fly the new Foxtrot models.

456
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:22,000
I guess it's all avionics. And so that was my medevac aircraft was the newer model aircraft Chinooks.

457
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:30,000
And so they pulled me out. And then Kirk Heikendahl, he was on the right gun.

458
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:36,000
He was all the guys, I guess, on the right side, number two side, did like a domino effect and they all fell on him.

459
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:48,000
And his his leg was snapped. And so he was him and I were medevac out together to the bar room and then on the lawn stool.

460
00:58:48,000 --> 00:59:00,000
And I don't I don't recall his path that Kirk's path. But I know that I had to become stable enough for them to allow me to be moved stateside.

461
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:06,000
Walter Reed, Bethesda, Maryland. It's when they were merging, the two hospitals were merging together there.

462
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:11,000
I don't have a view of it, a visual of it. So therefore, I don't understand what it looks like.

463
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:17,000
So I just all I know to me, it's Walter Reed's on one side and Bethesda Naval is on the other side.

464
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:23,000
And they're just like merging together. That's all I can that I can't see any other way than that.

465
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:34,000
That's where I was moved. I was in a coma for a little over two weeks.

466
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:43,000
It's hard to recall a lot of things. I remember having a lot of dreams and having a feeding tube, doing certain things, having certain things.

467
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,000
The room, I'll talk to Lacey at times and try to get hers.

468
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:54,000
But she's been she's I feel like she's been traumatized in her own way from all that she's experienced with that.

469
00:59:54,000 --> 01:00:01,000
So I don't think I can talk to her and ask too many things without upsetting her.

470
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:08,000
But I don't really have any answers for what happened at that point.

471
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:19,000
Waking up, I remember they moved me from from Bethesda to Minneapolis, Minnesota, to the hospital, the hospital there.

472
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:28,000
And I remember there being a short bus on the on the runway there at Bethesda, a short school bus, a small one that they turned into an ambulance, essentially.

473
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:35,000
And I remember being waiting in a wheelchair. It was real cold sitting there.

474
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:39,000
And they're like, OK, we're going to have to wait. And we're going to take you out there to the plane.

475
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:48,000
It was a tiny jet. So I can't maybe somebody else out there who's been through something traumatic like this can can understand me.

476
01:00:48,000 --> 01:01:00,000
But knowing I'm about to get onto a plane after my experience on the helicopter, right, knowing it's going to happen and then knowing it's so tiny,

477
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:10,000
I already was like working myself up. But also still it's like I'm still halfway coherent and not probably medication, probably the trauma to the head.

478
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:17,000
For reference, the injury that I sustained was traumatic brain injury, diffuse axonal.

479
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:25,000
And so head injuries are rated from three to 15. 15 is like a concussion. Three is your brain dead.

480
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:35,000
I was rated a seven. So I was already written off fairly, you know, in the very beginning as to what kind of recovery looked like.

481
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:42,000
When I did wake up, how how coherent would I be? What level would I be?

482
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:48,000
It wasn't good. None of it was good. The prognosis is where nothing was was wonderful to expect.

483
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:55,000
And so happened to endure those things that I did in the beginning were on top of being scary. It was confusing.

484
01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:02,000
And so on the flight, I remember I pissed myself.

485
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:13,000
There's a picture where they shaved half of my head because they had to clear off the area for the for the for the my head for the vent and whatever the whatever the stuff's called.

486
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,000
I had staples in my head. I had a deal to release the fluid here and back here.

487
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:23,000
But they didn't cut my whole head, I guess, because they were afraid of any kind of cuts and bleeding and things like that.

488
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:27,000
So they just had to cut what they needed to cut. So I look like a fool and a couple of photos.

489
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:35,000
I'm like, come on, dress me up something. Right. But just that flight was very stressful.

490
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:44,000
And then once we got to Minneapolis, the processing and get situated, I was alone at that point in my room on the bed.

491
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:52,000
And I remember just being so alone and hearing.

492
01:02:52,000 --> 01:03:03,000
A lot of other guys, just the noises, the yells, the screams.

493
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:10,000
Just being afraid and terrified. You know, again, it took me back to and I'm aware of this.

494
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:23,000
It took me back to a time whenever I was a young kid living in that town of 45 people and being by myself and not having anybody to rely on or who's going to protect me, who's going to save me, who's going to help me.

495
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:32,000
Right. And so I would just go to that little that little that little spot and just tell myself, you got to get out of here.

496
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:40,000
You know, we asked me to do it for you. You know, and that's why I guess that's why I locked in.

497
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:45,000
And I just going from being told you're not going to get out of here, you're not you may not walk into me.

498
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:56,000
You may not talk. All these different things. And within four months, I was out of the hospital, going back to back to back home.

499
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:06,000
It was so miraculous that even TV stations back in Kansas City were coming up to do videos and, you know, stories on it because they're like, this doesn't happen.

500
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:16,000
The doctor, you know, did interviews and they're like, this doesn't happen.

501
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,000
It's a.

502
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:28,000
Again, it's tough to put into words, but I just I give a lot of grace, a lot of credit to God.

503
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,000
I believe that's a huge part of my story and my recovery.

504
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:39,000
I credit myself, you know, the doctors, the nervous, the nurses, the medical staff.

505
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,000
Amazing because that's a big part of them doing their job.

506
01:04:42,000 --> 01:05:01,000
And then I do I do credit myself at times and you know how hard I worked and just the the resiliency and the the drive that I just even today to get up out of bed in pain and all the shit I deal with.

507
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:05,000
I think it's who it's it's just it's just how I've been created, I suppose.

508
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,000
I don't know. I don't like excuses. I don't.

509
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:13,000
I might talk about him and complain about him, but I just I just feel like I'm supposed to do what I'm supposed to do, you know.

510
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:26,000
What about mentally and emotionally, even veterans and first responders that haven't been injured at all, just gone through their career, you know, being successful, but then transition out, whether it's, you know, they were they were fired,

511
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,000
discharged, whether they were hurt, whether they promoted sometimes even out of their unit to a desk.

512
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:42,000
You see so many people struggle with that transition. Now, when you are hurt and you had that snatch from you and even your own physicality has been changed.

513
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:51,000
I can imagine that's extremely jarring. So did you find yourself at a low point? And if so, what were some of the things that pulled you out of that?

514
01:05:51,000 --> 01:06:02,000
Yeah, I did. So I used to be like a perfectionist. I still think I am, although I'm just more aware of the fact that I can't be. So I have to just kind of like work through that.

515
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:13,000
But I used to be such a perfectionist. I wanted to be good at everything I did, because I was fairly good at whatever I did, because the more I put my mind to it, I focus in, I dial in, I become better at it.

516
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:21,000
So I've done speeches to different groups of people or presentations, I should say. I feel like I'm a terrible speaker.

517
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:26,000
I'm just a real authentic person. So people can relate to me in that sense. Right.

518
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:37,000
When you talk about transitioning, things like that, we like to talk about like building our resumes full of things that we're good at and like knowing our best qualities.

519
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:49,000
Right. For me personally, right, is I like to point out the things that I know I'm not good at. So I can help things in a lot of different ways. But knowing that when I got hurt, I wasn't good at something.

520
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:58,000
That's where my focus went to is what are my weakest links, my poorest traits. What can I do? How can I make those better?

521
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:10,000
And I remember sitting in the hospital room, right, my left side paralyzed like this. There's pictures of me. Let me turn this way. Like this. That's how I was locked in. My whole left side.

522
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:22,000
And I couldn't, I'm left side dominant, by the way. And so my hand, I couldn't pull it out very well. I couldn't, you know, I still, it's tight at some spots, but all these.

523
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:35,000
So I say that to say that that was a poor quality of mine at the time. When I was like, I would get so frustrated, I couldn't do certain things. So I remember asking for puzzles. I liked puzzles.

524
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:45,000
And I asked the nurses, you know, could I, do you have puzzles? Can you be puzzles? And so I would sit there and have a tray on the bed. Mind you, I tried to get out of the bed many times.

525
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:55,000
And it came like this guy that always tried to bail from the hospital bed and decided to put a beaver on my bed because I kept trying to get up and get up. I could just do this on my own, right?

526
01:07:55,000 --> 01:08:07,000
But they would bring me in a tray with puzzles. And again, my thought is, what's my weakest link? So my right arm, my left hand, my right arm's not even that great, but that's the arm I'm doing the puzzle with.

527
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:20,000
And then I'm like, well, wait, this isn't going to get better on its own. So I could even hold my arm up on my own. So example, go to the fridge, grab a carton of milk or jug of milk and pull it out.

528
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:39,000
Okay, this arm, got it. This arm, I drop it. That's, that's the, it's like I had a stroke. So all those muscles within, I couldn't hold them. So sitting there doing a puzzle on the bed, I would, I would grab a piece and hold my arm, which brought me to that point.

529
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:56,000
It's almost as if I was prepared for the worst possible, you know, scenario. And because of that, I was able to have all these things that helped me through the process. I have to think of it like that. I don't have to, but I choose to think of it like that because it helps me make sense of it, right?

530
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:05,000
That if I wasn't at my best, if I wasn't in the best shape scenario prepared for that, I wouldn't be here today anyway.

531
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000
You mentioned at the beginning about your love of art when you were young. Talk to me about finding beer caps, beer bottle caps in the end of a party and how that led to the art that you create these days.

532
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:37,000
So I didn't pursue it in that way. Essentially, like whenever I got home, I had a very difficult time with people. I'm a very big people person, but once I'm home and then, you know, the other crash happens and people would come up and ask me the craziest questions.

533
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:55,000
I'd be like, this is not okay. I don't think they meant to talk to me that they did, but I just I couldn't handle it. And so I got a lake lot with a camper and a pontoon boat, just a place to get away on the weekends and just kind of just be alone, I guess, sometimes.

534
01:09:55,000 --> 01:10:08,000
And I had a buddy help me put together a table. And it was like from an old wire spool, you know, that they use on construction sites like that old wire spool, turn it into a table. It's sitting next to the camper.

535
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:16,000
He helps me. I say helps me as if I didn't think at all because I couldn't do much of anything, but he built a like a deck right there next to the camper.

536
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:26,000
And I took a hammer to it. He went to go put it back in the trailer and I walked by the table that was that was built the wire spool table and that's where we through their beer caps.

537
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:31,000
Just laying there on the table and I walked by him to go hit a bottle cap with the hammer and I missed.

538
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:41,000
And again, being a perfectionist, I used to do construction. I was a roofer of sheet metal. So I used to hammer all the time and I was like, what the heck, man. And so I made me angry. So I stood there. I kept trying to hit it.

539
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:51,000
I kept trying to hit the same spot over and over because the bottle cap is one inch in diameter and I kept trying to hit the same spot and all these bottle caps, hundreds of bottle caps.

540
01:10:51,000 --> 01:11:02,000
And that's what happened. So the longer I stood there, the more I kept doing it. I kept realizing I got better at it. My hand-eye coordination, my motor skills, all these things I'm doing to improve and help myself.

541
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:18,000
Like my weakest link, right. And I'm sitting here now learning how to improve this on my own by doing this. So I focus and give all my attention. I end up smashing all these bottle caps flat and I nail them to the to the wire spool table.

542
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,000
It was so cool. I've got a picture. It's on my page.

543
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:28,000
But actually, I might have a picture right here.

544
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:35,000
I don't. It's going to take too much time. Anyway, it's all online. You can find it on that Instagram.

545
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:43,000
So I smashed all these bottle caps, went home, came back the next week. It had rained. What happens when a bottle cap gets wet? It rusts. So the whole table was rusted out.

546
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:51,000
Looking back, I wish I still had it because I think it would have been so freaking cool. But then it went to the trash can. And then my mind started working more.

547
01:11:51,000 --> 01:12:00,000
I'm like, well, I need to work with bottle caps because that helps me. So then I was like, well, can I make a different design? How can I how can I preserve these? Make them where I can keep this artwork?

548
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:09,000
Essentially is what it was. So I got into epoxies, learned that all epoxy yellows over time, resins. Until now I use a product called Art Resin.

549
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:18,000
So as you asked the question how I got this. So that's what happened. So I didn't realize it was even artistic until I got to the point where it's like I could do better than that.

550
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:29,000
And so I started making different designs. I had the hand tools of roofing and sheet metal. So I started taking my snips and cutting the bottle caps, bending them into the shapes to perfect the design.

551
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:38,000
And and as you can see behind me, those are bottle cap things that I've done with epoxy resin and there.

552
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:52,000
Excuse me. And so then it became a passion when people like, dude, what can I buy one of these? And then it's like, can you donate one of these to this auction that we're having for a fundraiser to raise money for veterans and things like that?

553
01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:01,000
And it's like along the way, I kept getting better. And along the way, I kept realizing no one does it like this. So being unique, one of a kind.

554
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:08,000
And then my story would attach onto it. And I do. He was hurt like this, but now he's making art and you can do this and help other people.

555
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:17,000
Then it was like positive reinforcement, using my heart, being good and giving back and helping other people that are hurting that need that help like I needed.

556
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:27,000
Right. So just it's so impactful and it's rewarding. The only the only hard part about it is reliving it every time I talk about it.

557
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:39,000
I mean, it's very difficult. It's challenging. But the positives that come back are I feel like are greater than the negatives I feel or the struggles I feel along the way.

558
01:13:39,000 --> 01:14:01,000
When I think about what it would take to flatten caps, certainly to arrange them in a way that it makes an American flag, I think again about someone with the attention to detail and that perfectionism has allowed you to kind of tap into that perfectionism that you had prior to the injury by the sheer accuracy needed for some of these pieces of art.

559
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:13,000
It's almost like I have OCD because they all have to be faced the same direction or a little bit cocked. I mean, but I will say when I'm in the right mindset of what it's supposed to be for me, it's healing.

560
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:20,000
Right. It forces me to calm down when I'm stressed out and I'm freaking out and my brain is moving so fast.

561
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:36,000
I can't I can't walk up and start just doing this and being are be as articulate as I want to be. Right. I start making mess of that. It's not good. It's not great. So then it forces me to stop calm myself, you know, and just very, very carefully move things.

562
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:50,000
And it's still to this day a chance for me to still work on my on my my my my my arm, my motor skills, because I can't just walk over and use my hand and get cocky. Like, oh, let me knock this out because then I my whole hand moves into it.

563
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:56,000
Like I just like it's like a stiff arm that just kind of pushes everything. So I still have to like be there and be very carefully.

564
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:09,000
There are no most normal struggles that I have because of what I've experienced. But it is. I understand that it is and it can be very rewarding and helpful in the process.

565
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:22,000
From an emotional point of view, again, that transition, whether it's with injury, whether it's not, you know, one of the things that we do in uniform is we have purpose, you know, a lot of us are doing this to make the world a little bit better.

566
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:27,000
And then you transition out and that's kind of taken from you, you know, initially in that role.

567
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:36,000
But the number of people I know that the one of the parts of a healthy transition is they found another way to give another way to make the world a little bit better.

568
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:40,000
Did this kind of project start putting some of that purpose back in for you?

569
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:45,000
Yeah, I think that you just said it right there. It's got to be what it is. It's the servant side of things.

570
01:15:45,000 --> 01:16:01,000
When you reflecting on all the things you asked me about about like in my service, being in Pakistan, being in Africa, being in Afghanistan, seeing what the service there, what it was doing, the impacts, it's giving, it's serving, it's giving back to like you have a purpose behind what you're doing.

571
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:08,000
And, you know, other than just like serving, you're serving yourself and your country and then finding the purpose that I had.

572
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:17,000
Like I said, the documentary, you know, I thought I thought it was a life right there. That was like my my purpose was to be in the military and continue to serve to the full extent.

573
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:22,000
And then, you know, once I get here, I get, you know, medically retired. What am I supposed to do now?

574
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:30,000
So that's where the drive is for me is seeing that this has a purpose. I have a purpose.

575
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:41,000
People value my art and and it auctions for insane amount of money each time. And I get to give that back. It's going to help somebody else with whatever struggle they have going on.

576
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:50,000
And that's exactly what it is. I have a servant's heart, right? It's it's all in good and it's pure and it's supposed to be successful for other people as well.

577
01:16:50,000 --> 01:17:03,000
And that's where it fills my cup. You know what I mean? It's it's I'm lucky to have that because a lot of people don't have it. They don't necessarily have that or they don't find that until later in life and after they struggle along the way.

578
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:14,000
And the fact that I this fell into my my lap and and to realize how impactful it can be now, it's I'm grateful to have it.

579
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:22,000
What about psychedelics? I've had a lot of people on here, even just from the mental health journey. They found it extremely beneficial.

580
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:29,000
Some of them, you know, really turned a corner on addiction and all kinds of things. Others, you know, open doors and then they carried on working on that with therapists.

581
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:40,000
But the other side you also hear about is that psilocybin seems to be one of the only substances that they're aware of at the moment that are actually helping nerves regrow, regenerate.

582
01:17:40,000 --> 01:18:01,000
So have you explored that path at all? So a little over a year ago, I was doing an event with Captain Phillips, Captain Rich Phillips and some Navy SEALs that and excuse me, Jeff Bull was one of the rescuers, the Navy SEALs that were the shooters that rescued Captain Phillips.

583
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:12,000
He approached me after I presented there and amazing human being, by the way, and he brought to my attention ketamine under doctor supervision.

584
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:23,000
And I was like, hesitant. And then I'm like, you know what, whatever, whatever might help and kind of calm me down like that and just reset my mind.

585
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:42,000
And then the guy that bought my artwork, purchased my artwork, approached me and said he would sponsor and basically cover the expense for this for me to experience that amazing human beings and just the, you know, the opportunity to experience that and give it a chance was a blessing.

586
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:57,000
So I went through six sessions with that and it did exactly that. It did it calmed me down and kind of showed me almost too much, I think, because I'm such an active person where I've got to force myself not really force myself, but I want to force myself to do things, keep moving.

587
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:04,000
I have a hard time sitting still. If I'm sitting still, it's not a good thing. Like that means I'm not good mentally.

588
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:15,000
But I went through six sessions and the whole day I'm out in there. It gets it's trippy for sure. I killed myself twice in one of the sessions.

589
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:24,000
I painted myself into a wall. The other one I went deep sea fishing jumped in the waters instead of drowning. I just started chugging the water to drink myself as fast as I could.

590
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:37,000
Just insane things. But the overall response was I did feel calmer and more I feel like I was in more control of my thoughts afterwards.

591
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:48,000
Maybe more creative for the time being. Some other things happen within that as well. They weren't so good. And that's kind of pulled me away from it just a little bit.

592
01:19:48,000 --> 01:20:00,000
That's more of a personal view on it. But overall, I've been approached with other things too within the Shroves. I don't know.

593
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:19,000
I did zero drugs when I was growing up. I did get my marijuana card here. But even then it's just the CBD and the gummies to put me to bed to calm me down until I get tired.

594
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:31,000
I don't dabble a whole lot in anything else. Maybe because I'm just ignorant or I'm new. I also have kids and maybe that's part of it as well.

595
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:39,000
I want to help myself but I don't want to take away any kind of motivation I have with what I'm doing if that makes sense.

596
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:49,000
Yeah, it does. From what I've heard, I haven't done it. Well, take that back. I did it recreationally in Japan. So I have done it.

597
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:59,000
A lot of times when I hear people say they get more focused if they're doing the microdosing. But again, it's also just that reoccurring thing that yes, the journeys find them healing as well.

598
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:10,000
It's the excitement that this also seems to help with neurogenesis with the regrowing of nerves and TBIs especially. So it would be interesting not even going down the path.

599
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:22,000
But if the microdosing is helping from a brain health point of view where you're sharp but you're not going on some journey on it, that maybe that will be another tool in the toolbox down the road.

600
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:33,000
Yeah, I'm open to anything. I've always said it. I've always, anything that's been brought to me, I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? I'll give this a try. See how it can help.

601
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:42,000
I'm definitely open to it. I've been offered service dogs multiple times. I will have a service dog at one point. I'll accept any of these things.

602
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:53,000
I've been something else. There's a deal down in Mexico, I think, where they've you take I think it's the microdosing as well. I'm not entirely familiar with that.

603
01:21:53,000 --> 01:22:05,000
I've just been approached with the idea, the concept. And again, it's hard to find time to make those things happen with I have a busy schedule with traveling, the events, kids, regular life.

604
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:15,000
So it's hard to find an extra week, essentially to go off and say, let me go try this out and see what happens. I feel like it is a priority. It's at a point I need to do something about that fairly soon.

605
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:32,000
Sooner than later anyway, just because of my mental health struggles have declined essentially in the last, I would say 14, 15 months. So I need to find something to help help help keep me going and bring me back, you know, back back up.

606
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:43,000
Brilliant. Well, I mean, I have some people that I think we could connect you with doesn't mean that it'd have to be any sort of movement on that. But I think because there's there's such a spectrum. And this is what I'm realizing now. I'm still new to this too.

607
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:55,000
But there's the very, very gentle. There's the microdosing. There's the things where you just it's almost like supplementation all the way through to, you know, Ibogaine, which is the one that you hear a lot of the seals go to, which is the nuclear option.

608
01:22:55,000 --> 01:23:25,000
You know, if you've got crippling addiction, then that will basically cause a 48 hour purge. But then the other end of that, you know, you're you're healing again. So there's so many I think, you know, in this this tool chest that people don't talk about that you can actually find. Okay, well, I don't want to commit to, you know, this this nuclear option, but maybe this microdosing would help, you know, and see what happens. And then again, if you've got TBI, maybe just maybe and I'm just, you know, hypothesizing that maybe

609
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:32,280
some of these plant medicines will take you on a journey where you can unlock some of these memories that were kept away from you because of the damage.

610
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:51,080
Right. And maybe that's subconscious fear that I have. And that's why I've avoided I don't know. Because I don't know how I would handle it. Right. And even the things that I have gone through, and I recall certain things, even then it's a matter of is this what I'm recalling actually, or is this something somebody told me, and I'm just

611
01:23:51,080 --> 01:24:20,600
remembering that that that memory that they told me about it. So it's very misleading for me. And it's difficult to understand or know, is this really what happened? Is this really how that happened? But at some point, I'm ready to just, you know, face it head on and do it. It's interesting to say that because the two different options I've been presented have come from Navy SEALs. I've done a lot of work with them and been alongside with fundraising, you know, fundraisers and auctions and things like that. So

612
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:29,040
maybe we're talking about similar situations here. But I'd love to talk to you offline about those opportunities, though, for sure, James.

613
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:47,880
Absolutely. All right, I want to hit one more topic. And then we'll go to some closing questions. But I had a speaking of your brother being a Marine, I had an amazing man, Major James Capers. And he was one of the founding members of recon Marines, and did this in a heroic I mean, it was it was obviously

614
01:24:47,880 --> 01:25:14,800
multiple men, but part of this incredible rescue in Vietnam, he was really badly wounded. And to this day, they're still trying to get him the Medal of Honor. Now you're obviously there's a kind of assumption that if you do certain things, or if you get hurt, that it would be kind of an automatic thing. But obviously, this isn't the case. So I saw when again, when I was researching you, you weren't initially awarded the Purple Heart. So talk to me about that journey and who helped you achieve that.

615
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:43,560
So that's the that was difficult. Because being in the hospital, I'm watching all these guys around me, receiving the Purple Hearts. And I was confused because I thought, what did I do wrong? I put a lot of it on me. Just being confused after like trying to wake up from this from the from being out and, you know, and talking to the guys in my unit saying like, what happened somebody tell me what happened? Like, I kept thinking it was on me, like I made a mistake. And that's why we were there.

616
01:25:43,560 --> 01:26:12,560
It was confusing. I didn't understand and then looking back and through it, the way that they talked about the investigation, how that was how that was done. Again, they talked about how there was an active duty component and then the reserve unit component and how that was easy to pin it on, you know, the reserve. So just the the investigation of the crash and how what happened was inconclusive. They said that they said that it was either a pilot error or a mistake.

617
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:41,560
A medical, mechanical failure or a crew mistake, pilot error, things like that. And it was like, and they so they started paying you on saying it was an accident. It wasn't, you know, combat related or it wasn't. Excuse me, like we weren't we weren't being fired at something like that. Like the tree strike was a big thing they talked about. I'm like, but the tree strike was secondary. That's not what took us down. And even then when you saw the trees and the trees were down, they were like, oh, I'm going to go down.

618
01:26:41,560 --> 01:27:09,560
And even then when you saw the trees and a full investigation, the blade just went straight through the tree anyway. So all these different things, all these different factors came into play. And it was really became to a point was like, you know what? I'm in the back of the helicopter. Are we not in combat? I was confused. It was so misunderstanding or inconclusive to me as to what the reasoning was behind that and how we had to make an excuse to accept this to happen when.

619
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:31,560
So we didn't somebody didn't vary like variables were in the mix. And so so they yeah they so in the beginning they called it an accident, a pilot error. And then and then years later, I went back and found the crew guys, the ground guys that were on board.

620
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:49,560
2013 they had they approved it. So it was in 2013. They approved it. That was my commander. Lacey helped with that. And then the congressman, Congressman Yoder in Kansas, they all together put that through. And then they approved it for myself and Kirk Hackendall.

621
01:27:49,560 --> 01:28:06,560
Because there was there was obvious reasons for that to be approved. But it took there was a delay that was misunderstood. So confusing. But then I contacted the ground guys, the active duty guys, and they hadn't got theirs for years.

622
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:26,560
And they were like, what the hell? They kept trying to put in as individuals and it wasn't happening. So I kept pushing this. I fought for them. I was their voice for years trying to find the next person that might know somebody else and come to find out they were never even put in for their because they would like I guess their their command, whoever it was, their individuals didn't even put them in for the Purple Heart Award.

623
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:47,560
Because I guess the story they were told or the assumption was it's easier to just blame the reserve guys, the components on that. So there's politics within that. And I was I'm still to this day confused about that. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Like you do what you do. How many guys went years without having those reaping those benefits and those you know from what they earned and deserved.

624
01:28:47,560 --> 01:29:01,560
They just are just now getting their Purple Heart Award a year ago. And so that was that was I don't understand it, man. Yeah, that answer your question.

625
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:31,560
No, it does. It does. It's just I mean, these again, these are these are really important things to hear. And like I said, with with major capers, I don't know even to this day, I know they were still pushing it. I know they made a documentary and I got to sit with him in his house in South Carolina. It was amazing. But you know, we're talking about the Vietnam War, and he still hasn't been and that he's African American. So back then, there is definitely a strong assumption that it was withheld because of his race. And you know, obviously, it's not the entire military. But

626
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:54,960
maybe the people that were able to make that decision back then, you know, so these are the stories that need to be told if people, you know, were in an event or, you know, had a level of heroism that needs to be recognized, because I know that there's a lot of people that spend hundreds of thousands recognizing politicians and people that haven't done a damn thing, we should make sure that our military members are recognized properly.

627
01:29:54,960 --> 01:30:24,960
I've been I've been shamed basically for being a reservist, as opposed to being an active duty member. And maybe it's one of those things where it's like, look what I did, I'm tougher than you. I'm more hardcore than you. I experienced this and you didn't. And it's like, how many active duty guys weren't even deployed to combat like I was? I don't know. I don't know. Like, again, I told you the beginning, I don't compare. I'm not I'm not here to fight back and forth. We all have our own path, our own story, our own reasons why essentially, right. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about my my reasons why. I want to

628
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:54,920
I wanted to, of course, but I didn't. Right. So, but but to hurt somebody else, because it's easier to say, reserve unit did that rather than active duty. It doesn't matter. I mean, there's still benefits that are there based off of the service and what we do, things like that. That's obviously was out of my control. So I'm basically waiting for the next person in line or that's above me to put in my paperwork to submit those things and my my command did that for me. And so it's hurtful.

629
01:30:55,120 --> 01:31:08,200
To know that what could have been on the other side of that, where their command didn't take care of them and misled their own troops and withheld from them. But all along, you're playing politics and blaming the game on the reserve side.

630
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:22,880
It just it's it's frustrating for sure. You know, and because I'm not in a great way enough to say, hey, you were wrong. Right. And to back it up, because I'm not great at speaking anymore like that. It's easier just to let it go.

631
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:27,040
And so I have to submit in many ways to that right there. Just let it go.

632
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:40,880
Well, I want to, like I said, get to some closing questions so I can be mindful of your time. The first one I love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?

633
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:52,720
Books. Well, it's interesting you say that because I used to read a lot and maybe it helped with my with my my mind like that. And now it's very difficult to read.

634
01:31:53,720 --> 01:32:09,440
I will say that I met a former military green beret and at the gym and he wants to help me. So I've been reading and he brought me a book. It's from the American Revolutionary War because I want to start back on my own.

635
01:32:09,440 --> 01:32:22,160
I'm not going to relearn these things if I don't do the work myself. So I told him as I want to start back from the beginning and I want to read these books to reteach myself. Remember, recall the information that I learned when I was in school, essentially.

636
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:32,920
So I don't have a specific book to say, hey, go read this book. I just know that one that I talk about a lot is obviously the final mission, Exhortion 17, because that's personal to me.

637
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:43,200
And those not because of me, but because those are the those are heroes. Those are men that are no longer here to say, hey, this is who I am. This is my life.

638
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:55,400
And so a wise man once told me life is for the living. Right. So they're not they're no longer here living. And so it's my job, our job to to remember them.

639
01:32:55,400 --> 01:33:03,400
And so they're never forgotten. You know what I mean? So I know you wanted me to say a good book and I don't have a good book to give you.

640
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:08,000
No, that's a good answer. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely good.

641
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:13,960
I mean, to again, underline what was taken from you during that crash. I mean, this is another thing.

642
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:21,320
So, you know, your journey of reading again, I think is a great answer to that question. What about films and documentaries? Do you enjoy any of those?

643
01:33:21,320 --> 01:33:28,880
I mean, I I enjoy them when I'm watching them. I I will say I don't hopefully you can remember this this one.

644
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:48,560
It's a it's a film about a plane and it it's students and they're flying and I want to say it's up in the mountains and then it the plane splits in half in the rear falls off and the front they crash and then there's several planes.

645
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:53,240
They end up eating each other's bodies to survive. Oh, man, I don't remember the name.

646
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:56,720
It was the one in South America, wasn't it? I forget the name of the film.

647
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,960
Yeah. So someone else knows that more than talking about.

648
01:33:59,960 --> 01:34:04,000
But again, there's bits and pieces. I'm not going to give it a recount appropriately.

649
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:16,760
But anyway, I related so much that because all these people and I broke down at the end of it, I started crying like heavily because they were in survival mode and they were in survival mode.

650
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:22,360
And they had to eat. They were conflicting with their morals and what's right, what's wrong.

651
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:38,520
But at the same time, it's like, well, if I don't do this, I and then just be so disoriented, all these different things fighting every single day to get up and go over and see I have to fight through this, you know, to survive and just all the different survival techniques, survival techniques.

652
01:34:38,520 --> 01:34:43,560
But then also, like eating another human body to continue life and feeling OK about it.

653
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:48,960
Right. And then at the end, going back home and they talked about how no one would know anything about what they experienced.

654
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:53,280
No one understands them. When they see them, they walk right past somebody else and look like, oh, that's just an old person.

655
01:34:53,280 --> 01:34:56,160
But nobody understands what they've been through, what they've experienced.

656
01:34:56,160 --> 01:35:08,840
And I hold that so dearly to myself because and that's part of what I when I share my story and I speak to other people at these events is that you have no idea what somebody else has gone through with the experience.

657
01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:14,960
No one has any idea what the hell I experienced in my lifetime, the struggles I've had to overcome and still deal with today.

658
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,240
But they look at me and they're like, oh, you look like an athlete or somebody that's in good shape.

659
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,000
You must be doing wonderful in life. And you have no idea.

660
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:24,200
I'm extremely sensitive. I have a hard time.

661
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:29,040
I'm very honest about talking about how I have many struggles.

662
01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:32,240
Right. And I'm not afraid to say that because I'm real.

663
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:39,560
I think it's embarrassing at times, but it's something that I'm just I'd rather be honest about than lie about it.

664
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:44,560
And but like, James, I'm sure you have things going on, right?

665
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:46,560
You have to talk about them. You have to admit to them.

666
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:55,160
But you've got things that are so significant that somebody else that even loves you and they're close to you has no idea that you're experiencing because you're good at hiding it a certain way.

667
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:57,760
You're just good at not talking about it. Right.

668
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:10,160
And so that movie put it back and perspective me like someone else is trying to get the same thing I'm trying to get to be understood, to just be understood and having somebody like give you the grace and just be a kind human being.

669
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:16,560
And that's that's my drive every day, man. It's just to be trying to be a good human being for somebody else.

670
01:36:16,560 --> 01:36:19,960
Beautiful. Yeah. I mean, to what you said, absolutely.

671
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:25,960
And this is the problem is that military first responders, when it's go time, we do have to hide our emotions.

672
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:31,960
You know, like I said, if you have a horrible car crash, we can't, you know, get off the fire engine screaming, oh, my God, there's so much blood.

673
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,960
You know, we have to have the mask on to do the job.

674
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:42,960
But then after that, you've got to remember to take the mask off and be vulnerable and process the things, whether it was on a call, whether it was a war or whether it was at home.

675
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:44,960
You know, so I think this is the issue.

676
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:48,960
We've got to understand we're yin and yang, not just one.

677
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:55,960
What you just reminded me as well, I can't remember who it was now, but one of my guests somewhat recently met one of those survivors.

678
01:36:55,960 --> 01:37:01,960
They were in I don't know if it was a museum that actually talked about it because it was Argentina or somewhere down there.

679
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:10,960
And yeah, they just happened to bump into one of those actual human beings and they told them, you know, I forget exactly what they talked about, but they told them the story.

680
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:21,960
And they were saying, I got this right, that they had managed to process it, they'd managed to get past it and kind of forgive themselves and realize that it was a necessity.

681
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:24,960
And, you know, some of the people were already deceased.

682
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:26,960
So, you know, it had to be done.

683
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:31,960
But, you know, you talk about overcoming trauma, you talk about post-traumatic growth.

684
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:37,960
That's a pretty powerful story to have to be able to, you know, put behind you and keep living your life.

685
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:41,960
Right. Man, that's amazing. Thank you.

686
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:47,960
I'm so, so grateful that you can recall that and relate to it because that's something that hit me so hard.

687
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:49,960
It hit me so deep and just watching.

688
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:56,960
And maybe because it was because it was an aviation crash or if it was just the whole scheme of survival.

689
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:59,960
And no matter what, you have to make yourself, right?

690
01:37:59,960 --> 01:38:10,960
As much as you think your body's done, you still, your mind gets you, you build yourself back up and you push yourself and you can do anything you want to, whether you want to or not.

691
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:13,960
You can do anything. You don't even realize it.

692
01:38:13,960 --> 01:38:19,960
But then the aftermath of what you experienced to the fact that someone can look at you and be like, you have no idea.

693
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:22,960
You have no idea what the hell they had to go through to get to that point.

694
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:28,960
It's just an inspirational, you know, comparison for myself.

695
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:42,960
Absolutely. Well, the next question, speaking of interesting people, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the world?

696
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:47,960
I need to sit on that one. I'll need to not because I don't have somebody, but I need to.

697
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:50,960
That's the part where I can't give it to you right this moment.

698
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:58,960
But I, if you let me send me a message and remind me of that, and I'm going to scroll through. I know I have somebody.

699
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:05,960
I know a lot of people. I've come across a lot of people that have experienced different things.

700
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:10,960
Man, Captain Phillips would be a wonderful person as well.

701
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:17,960
And he's a good dude. I bet he would. But I can look through some and see what I can find for sure.

702
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:20,960
Brilliant. When you say Captain Phillips, I wrote it down. So I was like, oh, that would be it.

703
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:31,960
Because I've, he's never said it, but I'm 99% sure that one of my SEAL friends was also on that boat, you know, in that rescue.

704
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:34,960
So yeah, it would be amazing to get Captain Phillips, you know, perspective as well.

705
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:39,960
So, but I'll circle around with you and we can talk about that after. So thank you.

706
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:48,960
All right. Well, then the very last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you and handicapping. What do you do to decompress?

707
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:54,960
I pace. I walk around, which is crazy.

708
01:39:54,960 --> 01:40:04,960
Because I, again, me sitting down, if I sit down in the couch or on the bed and I sit and I just go, sigh, like decompress that way.

709
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:12,960
My first thought is you can be doing something right now. Get up and do something because because I don't I know what it's like to sit there and not have a chance to move.

710
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:21,960
Does that make sense? Like I know what it's like to be stuck in a bed or in a wheelchair and not have the ability to get up and go do what I want to do.

711
01:40:21,960 --> 01:40:26,960
And so that's not decompressing for me. That's relaxing and taking a moment off.

712
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:34,960
So when I get up and I walk, just walking around, I start pacing. Like when I'm pacing, like that's decompression for me.

713
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:41,960
Mentally, it's decompressing, whether it's decompressing my body or not. To me, mentally, that's that's that's that's like a good positive thing.

714
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:48,960
It's like when you tell somebody they can't run. And I used to run a lot. And I have a hard time running now without hurting my feet, my legs, my hips are out.

715
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:55,960
So running is difficult. It's painful, essentially. But I used to love running. That was decompressing for me. That was like relaxing.

716
01:40:55,960 --> 01:41:03,960
So, again, walking pacing. That's like that's decompression for experiencing, breathing in the environment, things like that.

717
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:08,960
Beautiful. When you first said pacing, I was just thinking about, you know, not being able to sit still.

718
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:16,960
But when you said that when you have been forced to sit still for a long time, you appreciate walking that totally reframed it.

719
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:27,960
All right. Well, then the very last question, if people want to learn more about you, visit the handicap and site or social media, where is the best places?

720
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:37,960
So at the moment, I'm having an issue with the website. Handicap.org is still up. But handicap.com is still up.

721
01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:43,960
The dot org is the newest one. It's the same website, but the newest one. It's not linked right now for some reason.

722
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:52,960
I'm having somebody work on that. But you can Google my name, Zeke Crozier. All the links are on there. My documentary is on there.

723
01:41:52,960 --> 01:42:02,960
If you type in handicap and H-A-N-D-Y, not an I, but Y, dash C-A-P-P-I-N, handicap and anywhere on social media, you'll find it.

724
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:09,960
I've done videos on TikTok. I've done videos on Instagram. My artwork is on there as well.

725
01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:17,960
I've done videos on Facebook, LinkedIn. They're all out there and I'm not good at marketing and saying, hey, go find me.

726
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:27,960
But if you want the inspiration, the story to see what the artwork and how I'm giving back and connecting with different organizations, it's all out there to be found.

727
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:29,960
So thank you.

728
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:44,960
All right. Well, I want to say thank you so much. I mean, as you said, and I want to underline this, a lot of people that come on here and they talk about things that were traumatic to them, there's an element of pulling the scab off the wound, as it were.

729
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:52,960
But the thousands of people that are going to hear this, I know it's going to have such an impact and it's going to have a ripple effect where it will help people.

730
01:42:52,960 --> 01:43:02,960
So I want to thank you firstly for your courageous vulnerability and secondly, for being so generous with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

731
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:07,960
James, I appreciate you saying that. And thank you for thank you for bringing me on. I love your content.

732
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:13,960
I love where your mind is with these things and the fact that you give people an opportunity to share their stories and their experiences, man.

733
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:23,960
You're just helping me reach my story. I don't like attention for me, but this story is powerful and inspirational. And that's the part that I'm just grateful for you to give the opportunity to put it out there.