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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 808 with the founder Ernie Colling or go to TranscendCompany.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show revered and respected journalist Larry Doyle.

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Now, if you didn't hear my first conversation with Larry, I highly advise that you listen to that first.

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And that was episode 677.

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And to underline the kind of admiration that people had for Larry's work,

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he was the very first person to interview Nelson Mandela after he was released from Robben Island.

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So that I think really details the respect that he had.

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We touch on many, many things from his time in Vietnam being a war correspondent, meeting Nelson Mandela in the first one.

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At the end of that conversation, though, Hurricane Ian was bearing down on the state of Florida and Larry and his wife actually evacuated their home.

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Literally mere hours later, Ian came through and devastated Sanibel Island and the surrounding areas.

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So as we sit down in the second conversation, we had another hurricane bearing down on us.

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I think it was Milton, if my memory serves me right.

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But we actually get to reflect on the impact of Ian, the devastation it happened, how Larry and his family lost their home, the insurance element, the FEMA response.

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So some really interesting takeaways of what it's like to actually be a victim of one of these storms.

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We then dive into the politicization of the media, the devolution of dissemination of actual knowledge, health care and some other incredibly powerful topics.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I always say, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over one thousand episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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I just want to touch on one more point. My Instagram was shut down this week for posting a perfectly innocent, kindness video.

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Obviously, there's more to the story than that that I'm not aware of.

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But regardless, the new Instagram page that I'm literally starting from scratch is behind the shield 911.2.0.

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So two point oh. So you can find that on Instagram.

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I'm back posting all the things that we did before, regardless of whatever the backstory was that had that one taken away.

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Because I've lost that platform, too, I just want to reiterate that my new book,

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kinder, is available on paperback and ebook through Amazon.

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And I'm working on the audio book currently, which will be out early December.

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So with that being said, welcome back, Larry Doyle.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Larry, I want to firstly say thank you for inviting me back to your home.

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This is a different home now. There's a certain irony to our conversations.

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We spoke two years ago, literally hours before Hurricane Ian hit the west coast of Florida.

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And then we'll talk, obviously, about the impact to your home.

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And we're now sitting in Gainesville, Florida, hours away from Hurricane hitting us again.

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Well, days. But so I want to thank you firstly for welcoming me to your new home and bringing coming back onto the behind the shield podcast.

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Significant differences in this new home.

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Well, I mean, the obvious one is we're an hour and a half drive from either the Atlantic or the Gulf of Mexico coasts.

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We're in an area that does not flood.

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And we're no longer built on stilts.

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Shortly after you left my Sanibel home and Ian hit.

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We had nine feet of water in the garage.

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We left one car behind that floated away.

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And ironically, I'm someone who, when I was living on the coast, tracked hurricanes religiously.

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I was tracking Ian to virtually the last minute.

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And I admit I misread what I was looking at on a computer model.

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And I and the meteorologist did not account for the sudden right turn that Ian met, putting Sanibel almost in the bullseye.

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About nine o'clock that morning of September 28th, we were still at home.

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The local police department knew that we were still on the island and they called and they said,

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if you're going to leave, you have to leave now.

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And I said, now, they said this minute.

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I said, what's up? We're about to close the causeway.

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When winds reached 40 miles an hour, they closed the bridge causeway that was the link, the only link to the mainland.

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And they said the winds are now at 42 miles an hour.

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If you don't leave now, you're not getting off.

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So we I had prepared a box of documents.

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I really prepped them to survive what I thought was going to be a severely glancing blow from the hurricane.

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Took that took a couple of items of clothing and Smitty, my dog, and we were the last car to leave the island.

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I mean, we barely got out, otherwise we'd have been stuck there for days.

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It took we were able to get back onto the island three days after the storm had by taking a boat.

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Beaching on the on the on a base side, not the Gulf of Mexico side, and then making our way into the house.

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Where we found, you know, literally almost complete destruction.

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I had friends who were on the task force, the USAR task force that came and one of them, they were from down south.

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And I forget exactly what happened, but they ended up getting right behind the hurricane.

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But everyone else was I don't know if it was another band, but they were held back by another storm.

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Or I forget exactly what happened.

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So this one team was pretty much on their own and they were going in evacuating patients,

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you know, person by person, multiple floors. And they just talked about the mass devastation.

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Talk to me about what you saw. I mean, this is a beautiful, idyllic, you know, affluent neighborhood at that point.

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You know, what was you beach on the on the boat?

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What was the difference that you witnessed with your own eyes?

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Well, on the boat, I was trying to prepare myself for the absolute worst, but thinking, no, it's not going to be that bad.

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When we got to the house, the first thing we noticed was complete damage to the roof.

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We had skylights on the roof that were blown out.

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So I knew that we were going to have a lot of water inside.

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The steps, we were on 13 foot stilts.

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We had so 13 feet of steps to go from the ground level to the first deck of the house.

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The stairs were intact. I said, this is good.

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Got to the door, put the key in, had to jimmy it a lot, open the front door.

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And we were on the second floor of the house, the first floor of habitation.

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I went in, I said, wow, everything looks pretty good here.

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I mean, the pictures were on the wall.

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I was like, OK, we got to the second floor, which was gone basically.

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And then we were proud to land a little more and said, oh, this is a lot worse than we thought.

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I was in shock.

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As I was saying, having covered the aftermath of a lot of disasters caused by Mother Nature and some by man,

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when I was working and would come upon hurricane victims,

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you worked very hard at being sympathetic to supplying them with what other help you can, et cetera.

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But you never can comprehend what the victims are going through until you've been one.

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So I was I was shocked. It took it took a lot for me to try to force myself back to my usually optimistic attitude.

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We before we hit record, you talked about the kind of mixed feelings you have for the FEMA response.

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Now, as we sit here recording, you're getting a lot of that when it comes to people in North Carolina in that area with Helene.

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So, again, through your own eyes, you know, what were the pros and what were the cons of being a homeowner in the in time?

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I think there are a lot of similarities between what I saw and experience on Senebel

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because it was cut off from the mainland because the causeway was it was a wreck.

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So the isolation was extensive, similar to what's going on in some of the smaller mountain towns in North Carolina.

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Consequently, it took FEMA quite some time to establish any kind of branches on Senebel Island.

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They established a number of response centers on the mainland,

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but they were difficult to go to and well overcrowded.

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FEMA, to me, they they they kind of overwhelmed the playing field with representatives,

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which is OK to a point, but a lot of these representatives.

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And I know this because I visited a lot of FEMA officers and wound up talking to people from California.

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Arizona had no local knowledge of the geography, the topography,

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what had happened, had never visited the impacted areas.

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And I don't want to be too critical, but I discovered that one of the problems I had with FEMA that I eventually worked out,

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I will say that one of the initial problems was the representatives didn't sing from the same hymnbook.

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They all had different interpretations of what help was available, what I qualified for, what I didn't.

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For instance, I was talking to them about my flood claim and I would tell my representative,

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before you can even put in a flood claim, you have to apply for an SBA, Small Business Administration loan.

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I said, I don't want a loan.

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Well, you have to have one before we'll process your claim for flood damage.

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I said, what?

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It took three or four trips to a field office for FEMA to sort out the fact that,

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no, I didn't have to apply for a loan that I would then have to repay.

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So, I mean, the intention was excellent, the execution not very good.

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What about just the simple resource of being a homeowner?

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I mean, some people, there's a spectrum out there.

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There's people who are very well off and they might even have a second home or certainly they got money in the bank to go stay in a hotel.

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And then you have the other side of the spectrum, which I would argue is a lot more of us on that end.

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What about just simply the ability to find somewhere as a shelter, to get clothes, to all the things that a lot of these people have lost?

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Well, we were very fortunate because we went inland and took shelter at a condominium

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that two of my nieces own about eight miles inland from Sanibel.

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And the impact there was severe, but less.

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I mean, the streets flooded, et cetera.

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Power was out, but it was safe.

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So we were very fortunate in that regard.

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Most of the people I knew on Sanibel evacuated.

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Very few stayed and unfortunately, a number of them perished in the storm, mostly from drowning.

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So, yeah, there are a couple of things I can say about surviving a hurricane.

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If you're told to evacuate, evacuate.

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If your home is damaged.

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Take pictures, document all your losses.

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And when your insurance company eventually comes.

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Quiz them about your policy, make sure they have read your policy.

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Record what they tell you.

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If you can.

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Because my experience with three insurance companies, Flood, Homeowners and Windstorm,

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aka Hurricane, were entirely different.

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Oh, and auto insurance.

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The auto insurance company that I had was wonderful.

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I reported nine feet of water in the garage.

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It was a watermark, it was measurable.

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And the fact that I'd left one car there that floated around in the garage.

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And they said, no problem, give us the make of the model.

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They said, you'll have a check in two weeks.

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I said, do you want to see the car?

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No.

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They said, but eventually we'll want it towed away.

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I said, OK.

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It took them three and a half months to get the car towed away.

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But they were remarkable.

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I mean, there was no questions asked.

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The other insurers were a lot more difficult.

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My first examiner for my federal flood insurance came and told me, oh, you're not covered.

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I said, what?

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He said, you're not covered.

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I said, why?

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He said, well, because this is a wind event.

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I said, but the wind pushed the water.

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Well, sorry, you're not covered.

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I mean, I wanted to throw this guy off the deck of the house, but he left.

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He said, but I'll tell you what, I'm going to be a good guy.

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I'll give you $500.

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And I said, get off the property.

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Fortunately, there was a FEMA representative who was at the house at the same time who

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witnessed this.

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And when the guy left, said, he's wrong.

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He's wrong.

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And I said, two years ago, we had a heavy rainstorm and in the garage, excuse me, had

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about four inches.

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The flood insurance people paid me $2,500 for the four inches of water I had in the

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garage then.

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And now they're saying, you're not covered.

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Well, eventually that got worked out, but it took months, months of me denying the claim,

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filing a supplemental claim, having the flood people come out again, having a contractor

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present when the flood people came out to point out everything they had missed or not

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included.

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The same thing happened with the windstorm coverage.

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I had to file supplemental claims, have these adjusters come out again.

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And the adjusters are a treat.

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I mean, they show up and they say, oh, Mr. Doyle, we're here to help you.

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Do you mind if I call you Larry?

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We're here.

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We're on your side.

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I said, great.

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Let's take a walk around.

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So they did.

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They came up with a number and I said, ridiculous.

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Here's a contractor estimate.

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I had them come back with the contractor present.

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They walked around again.

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Suddenly their initial payment doubled.

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The same thing with homeowners, supplemental claim.

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Made sure the contractor was present when their adjuster returned more than doubled.

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So the lesson is, document everything, pictures, paperwork, keep a record of every visit you

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have from an insurance representative.

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Make sure you get their full names and contact numbers.

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I had the contact numbers for the adjusters who came out initially for homeowners and

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windstorm.

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And when I called them to tell them I was filing supplemental claims, they never answered

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their phones.

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And I understand that insurance companies, when disasters like this, particularly the

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magnitude of a category three, four, five hurricane, they have to reach out to people,

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representatives of theirs.

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They're not employees.

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They're contract people who work for these insurance companies.

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And they come from all over the country.

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Again, these are people who are ignorant of the geography, the topography, the history.

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So you've got to be very diligent dealing with the insurance companies.

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Do not assume, despite all assurances from their representatives, that they are your

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friends or on your side.

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They are not.

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I have to let the media off the hook slightly.

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Because in the case of Sannabel, which I'm most familiar with, the island was inaccessible.

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I mean, media wasn't going to be able to just get over easily and prowl around.

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If the media came, they'd have to come by boat.

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Then they're going to have to walk through the island.

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Well, you can only walk a certain distance.

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So you're going to see a limited amount of debris and destruction.

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So from what I saw during my trips back to the island, the damage was much more extensive

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than the media was initially reporting.

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Because I was able to make more ingress into the island than they were.

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I got a kick out of it when some of the local stations in Fort Myers reported about their

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trips back to the island.

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Well, their initial trips back to the island were to accompany the governor, the mayor.

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And they stood at beachside and talked about everything they didn't see but heard about.

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So I had to, you know, I could fault the media for perhaps not digging deep enough.

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But I also understand that they were under severe restrictions into how far they could

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navigate.

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The technology helped.

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Because one thing that the local media was able to do pretty successfully was use drones.

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And the drone footage they supplied, which I only saw a couple of days after the storm,

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because where I was living, the power was intermittent.

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The drone footage told the story.

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I want to be careful how far I go to criticize the local media.

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But I think they were hoodwinked by officialdom.

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Yeah, that's the thing.

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It's not saying it's the media specifically.

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But why is it?

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I'll give you a perfect example.

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The Vegas shooting.

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You know, when we had the Pulse shooting in Orlando, that story went on and on and on

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and on.

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And rightly so.

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It was an absolute tragedy in modern American history.

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The Vegas shooting, again, it appeared that it got all this coverage for a very short

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time and then all of a sudden it went away.

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Now, was that the media specifically?

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I don't think so.

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But it just makes you ask the question, why do some of these storms get all this coverage

262
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and some don't?

263
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Why do some of these attacks get all this coverage and some don't?

264
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:37,800
Is there an underlying reason or is there someone benefiting from quieting down some

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stories, scaremongering others?

266
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I'm just curious.

267
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,400
Oh, there's no question.

268
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Politics enters into the coverage of every event like a hurricane or the Pulse night

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clip shooting.

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I mean, you know, in Orlando, my goodness, you have to protect the city's represent,

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you know, you know, identity as a tourist hotspot.

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It's not only Disney there.

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It's you know, there's a lot of other things to do and see in Orlando.

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You can't make the city a dangerous place to visit.

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And again, you know, with hurricanes, I think again, because of a lot of political pressure,

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local media in particular doesn't want to present the worst case scenario.

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Like there wasn't a lot of attention, at least in my mind, paid to the destruction on the

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Santa Belle and particularly Fort Myers Beach of the infrastructure and the destruction

279
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to the business community.

280
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I mean, both those little areas, Fort Myers Beach and Sanibel rely heavily on the tourist

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trade.

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And all of a sudden you start to tell people there's nothing to come here to see.

283
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That knocks down your revenue base quite a bit.

284
00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:13,160
What about contrasting that?

285
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,520
Before we hit record, you mentioned about witnessing and reporting on other hurricanes

286
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:18,520
and one was Honduras.

287
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,880
And if you think about that, it's you could just imagine it would be a more fragile population

288
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than mainland the US, for example.

289
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,880
So talk to me about what you witnessed there and the level of destruction and death in

290
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,680
a more fragile island like that.

291
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:47,120
I forget the year, but it was in the 90s and late October, very, very late this season,

292
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:53,640
Hurricane Mitch roared through Honduras.

293
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We made our way eventually out of the Cusagalpa, the capital, into the countryside.

294
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:14,160
Ripsa took us days and reached little villages that were no longer, they were invisible,

295
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,280
covered under just mud.

296
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:24,000
And one of the most horrific scenes I've seen anywhere where we reached a mountain village

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00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:35,040
that was just under a muck and mud, not a house or a hut standing, but sticking up through

298
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:41,160
the mud were hands.

299
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I cannot imagine that an accurate death toll was measured.

300
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:59,760
I think the authorities then were saying, well, such and such, Santa Santa something

301
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,160
had a population of 600.

302
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,000
So we assume 600 people died here.

303
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:16,000
Consequently, in the case of Honduras, there were no rescue efforts.

304
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:22,440
No search and recovery, no rescues, just done.

305
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,400
Was there a specific country that should have been responding as an allied nation or were

306
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,080
they just completely left out to dry?

307
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,760
Left out in the mud.

308
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,600
The surrounding Central American countries had neither the wherewithal or the ability

309
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,400
to help.

310
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:49,520
The United States wasn't terribly involved in Honduras there then.

311
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:59,400
Their interest in Honduras didn't have to do with the recovery from an earthquake.

312
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:09,560
It was a country and an area, the mountainous area, completely left on their own.

313
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,080
I found it baffling and I want to get to Haiti, so this is a good segue.

314
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:22,320
I was working for Orange County, 10-12 years ago, and Haiti had the earthquake.

315
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,480
I'd reached out right off the bat and said, hey, I speak French, not amazing French, but

316
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,800
I speak French well enough.

317
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,360
I'd love to go be part of a rescue effort.

318
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,280
Are we sending people?

319
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,440
It fell on deaf ears and a few days later an email went out saying, hey, does anyone

320
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,440
speak French?

321
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,840
I go to Haiti, they put a list together and by the time they did, FEMA was already sending

322
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,640
teams away from there while they were still finding people alive.

323
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:48,840
What about that element?

324
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,760
To me, firstly, the altruistic side, we should be there and hopefully as many of us are needed

325
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,240
to facilitate the rescue effort.

326
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:04,400
Even selfishly, that gives American rescuers a chance to practice, to have it so that you

327
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,120
can bring those skills back to our soil as well.

328
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,800
More often than not, and this is not, you know, towering everyone with the same brush,

329
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:18,680
but there seems to be an element of premature, you know, bringing everyone back prematurely

330
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,760
rather than staying there and following through.

331
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:27,200
And I think that the Haitian earthquake was an example of that.

332
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:36,560
One of the most remarkable rescue efforts I've ever seen was in Haiti after that earthquake.

333
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:46,280
We flew from Miami into the Dominican Republic, rented some big four wheel drives, drove to

334
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:52,620
the border, got stopped at the border, told we couldn't come through.

335
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:59,400
We perhaps paid a small gratuity and were allowed through.

336
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:07,920
And the first town over the border, less than a mile from the border, was just cracked wide

337
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,200
open by the earthquake.

338
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,520
We eventually made it all the way into Port-au-Prince.

339
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:25,720
And at that time, now we're three or four days after the earthquake, at that time, some

340
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,140
repairs had been made to the airport.

341
00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:33,400
So some relief was coming in.

342
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:45,160
And I remember an LA County search and rescue team and the famous, and I guess famous for

343
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:57,200
good reason, the Miami-Dade search and rescue team were headquartered in a certain area,

344
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:03,880
a little outside Port-au-Prince, in the city limits, but at the extent of the city limits.

345
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:13,160
We went over there, linked up with them and convinced them to let us follow them on some

346
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,100
of their missions.

347
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:25,080
And I'll tell you, it was the most, one day was the most remarkable day.

348
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:33,480
We were following the Los Angeles team and they were going through a neighborhood with

349
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:44,320
the dogs, the cadaver dogs and stethoscopes and flashlights.

350
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:52,840
And I remember they'd go up and down the street, they'd park their vehicles, they'd walk up

351
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:59,120
and down streets and surviving residents would come to them and yelling, this house, this

352
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,200
house, someone's still alive in this house.

353
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,800
They'd go to that house, they'd have the dogs, they'd dig.

354
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,120
It was amazing.

355
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:19,740
We were on one search and I'll tell you, this was, they were told there's somebody under

356
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:22,020
that debris.

357
00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:27,060
They looked and they said, okay, we'll take a look.

358
00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:34,960
They sent the dog, the dog woofed around and they said, all right, well, they started to

359
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,320
dig.

360
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:45,640
With their flashlights, there was a kid, I forget how old, 10, 11, in the debris still

361
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,720
there alive.

362
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:57,720
He was able to, in a very, the rescuers told me in a very low voice, say he was there,

363
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:00,320
he was there.

364
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,840
Frantic activity, they dug.

365
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:03,920
They dug.

366
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:12,840
By this time, because of all this activity around this particular damaged structure,

367
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,320
a crowd had formed.

368
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:28,040
I mean, I hate to say it, but I think for these poor Haitian people who had no shelter,

369
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:34,960
watching the rescuers work was almost, I want to be careful, almost to them a form of entertainment,

370
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,240
something to get their mind off their own trouble.

371
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:50,160
Well, once the LA team identified that there was someone still living in there, as I said,

372
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:51,160
furious work.

373
00:35:51,160 --> 00:36:00,040
I mean, I mean, I did, you know, careful work, you know, prying off slabs of concrete in

374
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,640
such a way that another slab won't fall and replace that.

375
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:18,760
And finally, after maybe a couple of hours, they lifted this child, a young girl, out

376
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,480
of the rubble.

377
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,840
And I'm telling you, there were tears in my eyes.

378
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:34,020
First of all, because, excuse me, of the valiant efforts of these people.

379
00:36:34,020 --> 00:36:40,040
And almost more so, the crowd went wild.

380
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,760
And you know what they started to chant?

381
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,960
USA, USA.

382
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,360
Can you imagine?

383
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:59,120
It was, I mean, so, you know, I, you know, I, you cannot underestimate the work that

384
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,480
these search and rescue people do.

385
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:10,120
I mean, not only is it, it's life threatening to them, it's against all odds.

386
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:18,480
And the rescuers, after spending a couple of days with them, we kind of had established

387
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,480
our own street cred with them.

388
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,520
So we were more or less accepted, right?

389
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:36,560
And I was doing an interview with one of the team leaders and I said, what do you do when

390
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,800
you're actually inside the rubble?

391
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:47,240
They said, we have a three tier thing we do.

392
00:37:47,240 --> 00:38:02,040
First, if we detect a sign of life, it goes to a second person to verify that.

393
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:09,020
If the second person verifies that, it goes to a third person.

394
00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:17,880
The third person spends a lot of time with hearing devices, flashlights, everything.

395
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:25,360
If the third person says no, we have to give up.

396
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:26,840
I said, how is that?

397
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,400
They said, heartbreaking.

398
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,960
I mean, it's a vote.

399
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,040
I said, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, boys.

400
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,040
No, it's horrendous.

401
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,160
It's the same with when we do triage, where we're taught.

402
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,060
You have the walking wounded, they will get off to go to one area, and then we have yellows

403
00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:50,480
and reds, and then you have blacks, and blacks are deceased or about to be deceased.

404
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:51,960
And that could be in a school shooting.

405
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,600
And these rescuers have to walk by these mortally wounded children if there's not the ability

406
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,400
to save them and keep moving on.

407
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,760
Even if they just saw them take their last breath, it is what it is.

408
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,960
It's a brutal, brutal thing they have to do.

409
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,560
I think that was the attitude.

410
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:17,560
If the third person says no, it's move on because maybe we'll find somebody else and

411
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,000
now we'll have time to find that other person.

412
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,080
And also, there's a phrase in the fire service, risk a little to save a little, risk a lot

413
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,080
to save a lot.

414
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:32,720
So if you verify that it is a legitimate rescue rather than recovery, then maybe you're going

415
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:34,120
to take slightly higher risk.

416
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,040
But if you get all that way and you tunnel and there's a collapse and someone's hurt

417
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,080
and then you discover that person was actually not alive in the first place, that's a tragic

418
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,120
loss too.

419
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:50,760
Yeah, I think the international response, particularly the American response of sending

420
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:56,500
in rescuers post-Hasian earthquake was pretty good.

421
00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:02,720
And then again, as you probably remember, there are a lot of independent American efforts

422
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:03,960
there.

423
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:11,480
The actor Sean Penn put together a huge group to bring in supplies and things.

424
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:17,160
Catholic charities, I mean, there are a lot of non-governmental helpers in the case of

425
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,160
Haiti.

426
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,160
I love Doctors Without Borders.

427
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,160
It's another great organization.

428
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,440
MSF, those groups, amazing people.

429
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,080
Well, while we're on the topic of Haiti, I'm trying to remember if I've got my facts right.

430
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:35,520
I thought it was Kenya had sent troops in to try and stabilize.

431
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:36,520
Okay.

432
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,840
So you've spent some time there.

433
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:44,560
Obviously, you're far more well-versed on that kind of history and politics than I am.

434
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,500
We talked last time about my experience in Labadee, this little corner that Royal Caribbean

435
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:54,340
has and what an absolutely gorgeous country it actually is.

436
00:40:54,340 --> 00:41:02,240
What is your kind of observations on the potential of stabilizing that country again?

437
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:12,480
Well, in the case of the Kenyans who went in, they haven't been able to bring in their

438
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:18,320
anticipated number of personnel, not even close.

439
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:25,200
The funding for the Kenyan effort has been dismal.

440
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:36,600
Just a couple of days ago this week, a Haitian gang raided a town about 60 miles outside

441
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:42,600
Port-au-Prince, killed 90 people, including women and children.

442
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,480
The Kenyans couldn't respond.

443
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:54,960
They didn't have the personnel or the equipment to take on a gang.

444
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:55,960
Poor Haiti.

445
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:04,000
The horrible phrase that is often associated with Haiti is, poorest country in the Western

446
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,120
atmosphere.

447
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,120
That's true.

448
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:20,880
I remember flying from San Domingo to Port-au-Prince in a small plane over the border.

449
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:29,240
The pilot said, directly below us is the Haitian Dominican Republic border.

450
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,760
I said, how do you know that?

451
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,560
He said, look at the trees.

452
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,760
I said, ah, I get it.

453
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:45,360
On the Haitian side of the border, you could literally mark the borderline.

454
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:54,520
The trees are all deforested, cut down, verdant growth on the Dominican side.

455
00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:05,160
Because the need for firewood, wood to build, reconstruct, was so desperate on the Haitian

456
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,120
side, the forests were denuded.

457
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:16,480
I've never seen a delineated border that I could measure in brown on one side, green

458
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:23,480
on the other.

459
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,680
I don't know about Haiti.

460
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,760
A lot of their problems are self-inflicted, corrupt governments.

461
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:41,560
Coming back to the Duvaez, then Aristide, the good priest who came in, who was as dirty

462
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,720
as anyone else.

463
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:53,080
And then, you know, Raoul Cedrus and his gang that took over.

464
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:58,280
You're not going to get a lot of international support, I'm afraid, for a country that can't

465
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,720
rule its own roost.

466
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:06,440
So a lot of the problems in Haiti, as I said, are self-inflicted.

467
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,440
I mean, it's become an ungovernable country.

468
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:20,320
Corrupt politicians, corrupt police department, non-existent or corrupt army, poverty, not

469
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,520
enough done to improve the welfare of the populace.

470
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:31,960
It's a bunch of guys on top siphoning everything off and lining their own pockets.

471
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,680
So unfortunately, and it is unfortunate, it's a country that's not going to get a lot of

472
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,840
international sympathy until it cleans up its own act.

473
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:40,840
And it can't.

474
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,360
Where do you begin?

475
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,320
Things are so deeply rooted, exactly.

476
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,120
I mean, in our lifetime, how many governments has Haiti had?

477
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,680
I've worked with some Haitian guys when I first moved to America.

478
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,680
I was down south testing for the fire department.

479
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,440
I worked for Boucher Brothers, who if you go on Miami Beach, all those blue chairs and

480
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,080
umbrellas, that's all Boucher Brothers.

481
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,680
I was told that there was some sort of connection, which is why they've got all that.

482
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:12,680
I don't know.

483
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,680
But anyway, there were a couple of Haitian guys and they were talking about when they

484
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,720
were there, it was Papa Doc and then Baby Doc.

485
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:26,000
Kind of like the deep belief in voodoo, and someone would curse them and they would see

486
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,720
a green light and it would be a red light.

487
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:33,600
And it was just all these different elements, the violence and the poverty.

488
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,200
And then you stand in Florida and you see all these people fleeing this country and

489
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,280
you hear this kind of anti-illegal immigrant rhetoric, which I get it.

490
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:48,940
I'm a legal immigrant, but I came from an affluent country that could afford it.

491
00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:54,520
And you hear the stories of, for example, 90 people being murdered, men, women and children.

492
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,960
That adds the other side of the conversation of why these people are getting in the raft

493
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:07,200
and fleeing for their lives.

494
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:08,200
I like Haiti.

495
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,080
I like the country.

496
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,340
And I still have a number of Haitian friends.

497
00:46:13,340 --> 00:46:19,760
Only a couple who still are on Hispano Island.

498
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,200
But I've stumped those through a solution.

499
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,440
I mean, the solution is to start at grassroots level.

500
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:35,400
And there are just too many disparate factions battling for control.

501
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:41,680
I had a green beret on the show and he was sitting in a plane on an airport.

502
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,840
I'm sure it was down here somewhere.

503
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:50,920
Getting ready to go and be a peacekeeping force in Haiti, like an invasion.

504
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,280
And they were called off on the tarmac.

505
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,160
But I'm always curious because again, you think about the potential tourism.

506
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,940
I'm surprised that the U.S., a long time ago, before it got really bad, didn't have interest

507
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:09,500
in there because you think with it being such a close neighbor to Florida and with so much

508
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:14,440
tourism and cruising and all those things that if not from a humanitarian point of view,

509
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:20,360
from a business point of view, that the U.S. would have stepped in years ago.

510
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,160
Here's a story I can tell you about the American interest in Haiti.

511
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:29,440
And it goes to the American interest in America's pastime baseball.

512
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:44,320
At one time, Haiti, I think in the 70s, 80s maybe, there was a brief period of peace,

513
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,560
not a lot of prosperity, but some peace.

514
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:54,920
And it was alluded to as the happy Haitian theory.

515
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,880
And here's how it reflected on baseball.

516
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:05,080
At that time in baseball, more home runs were being hit than at any time before.

517
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:12,040
All the baseballs used in America were manufactured at that time in Haiti.

518
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:21,160
The happy Haitian theory was the happy Haitian people enjoying a modicum of prosperity are

519
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:31,320
stitching the baseballs tighter and therefore they fly farther off the bat.

520
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,040
And that was America's interest in Haiti.

521
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,520
That's where it ended.

522
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:38,840
The happy Haitian theory.

523
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,040
I've never heard that before, but that's very sad in many ways, especially as the Dominican

524
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,040
right next to him.

525
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,000
We have so many baseball players playing in Major League here.

526
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:53,680
Well, I want to shift to a different nation, but I don't want to make it as a topic itself,

527
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,080
but more a kind of overview of journalism.

528
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:05,320
What I have experienced and witnessed, especially more recently, is it seems like the most censored

529
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:10,000
voice these days is the middle of the road, common sense voice.

530
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:15,000
We talked last time about Fox and CNN and that kind of divided screen and it being opinions,

531
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,080
not news anymore.

532
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,560
And it's, for example, with this whole Gaza thing, and we're recording this on October

533
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:27,080
7th, that if you stand up and say what happened to the Israeli people that were killed that

534
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:32,360
day is terrible and what's happened in Gaza to the Palestinian people and Israeli since

535
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,560
is also terrible, that is heresy.

536
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,040
How dare you just pick a side?

537
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,140
You're either at pro-Israeli or pro-Palestine.

538
00:49:39,140 --> 00:49:40,680
You can't be both.

539
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,920
I find that insanity, you know, the same as Russia and Ukraine.

540
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,720
I don't believe that all Russians wanted to invade Ukraine and there's Russian people

541
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:51,080
that are probably opposed to it.

542
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:59,600
With that journalistic lens, what is your kind of perspective now on even topics that

543
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:05,720
arguably the answer sits in the middle, that that's a kind of silence voice and you have

544
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,360
these polarizing camps.

545
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:15,040
And if you don't subscribe to one of those two, then you're the kind of odd one out.

546
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,040
You're exactly right.

547
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,560
I mean, this is, there's an abyss in this country.

548
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:25,480
I mean, the division is as grave as well, certainly in my lifetime.

549
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:41,400
I mean, the media is somewhat at fault, but I think most at fault is the American electorate,

550
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,720
the American people.

551
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:52,840
And unfortunately, we have become so inured to the lies of politicians that we don't pay

552
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,920
attention to them much anymore.

553
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,680
It's just accepted.

554
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:11,880
I mean, the things that politicians say these days and get away with is amazing.

555
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:20,280
I mean, just recently, the poor Haitians in Springfield, Ohio, you know, being surprised

556
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,560
of accused of eating the pets.

557
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:25,560
I mean, come on.

558
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:35,640
I mean, and then you have an American congresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who in the last few

559
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:45,760
days has been in her bully pulpit, blaming the recent destruction from hurricanes on

560
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:52,520
the Democrats because somehow they have shifted the weather patterns.

561
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,560
I mean, look, this stuff is incomprehensible.

562
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,080
But how many people believe it?

563
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,880
I don't know, 40, 45 percent.

564
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,600
This is, you know, insane.

565
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:13,920
I mean, the poor media is sucked a bit in the middle.

566
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:26,280
They a good media is bound to point out falsehoods, lies, accusations that don't hold true.

567
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:35,040
I mean, they do that and they're attacked by being partisan.

568
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,720
They don't do that.

569
00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:42,620
They're attacked as being partisan on the other side.

570
00:52:42,620 --> 00:52:46,040
So the poor media is kind of stuck in the middle.

571
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:56,200
And I don't think there's enough nerve and gumption on the part of the media to really

572
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:04,520
shine light on a lot of these claims and falsehoods that are being spread around.

573
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:12,960
I mean, when Ronald Reagan was president, his press secretary, whose name was Larry

574
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaks, said anything told five times becomes truth.

575
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:32,840
And that's right out of the playbook of one particular political party.

576
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,800
Repetition, repetition, repetition, pounded into the people's heads and they're bound

577
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,920
to believe it.

578
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:43,920
I don't get it.

579
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:50,640
I mean, the only way a free press can function is by being tough.

580
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,720
It's not the free press's job to be nice.

581
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,920
It's more to be nasty.

582
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,200
They're there to expose.

583
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:10,800
I mean, it's almost like the press should be here to observe, not to participate.

584
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:17,600
And your observation has to be tough.

585
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:28,600
I mean, why did the people who foster the most exaggerated claims take umbrage when

586
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,640
they're questioned about them?

587
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,440
Well, we talked about this before.

588
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:41,040
This is one of the things that I found where I'm called a libtard or a Trumpy or whatever

589
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,040
side it is.

590
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,160
And again, you're standing in the middle looking like a tennis match, looking left and right

591
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,280
going, what are you people talking about?

592
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:53,120
But this is what happens when you have a system where real leaders can't succeed.

593
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,800
I would say, I had her on the show, Tulsi Gabbard.

594
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:56,960
I think she's fantastic.

595
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,360
RFK, I think he's fantastic.

596
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,080
But once again, they couldn't get anywhere near the end.

597
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,220
So now it breaks my heart, but they're both aligning to one side.

598
00:55:07,220 --> 00:55:10,000
But I think the other side is horrendous as well.

599
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:17,400
And then you have all these legal cases and looking into their history.

600
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:22,480
It's like, well, because our system keeps bringing horrible people to the surface.

601
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,720
And you, I'm sure, Nelson Mandel is one of them.

602
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:30,800
But so many incredible leaders in the past, probably in the military and maybe in journalism.

603
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,540
I as a firefighter, and this is why it jars at me so much.

604
00:55:34,540 --> 00:55:39,840
The leaders that I respected, lives were in their hands.

605
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,940
So these were tried and tested, incredible men and women.

606
00:55:43,940 --> 00:55:48,080
So when you hold Donald Trump or Kamala Harris or any of these people in front of me, to

607
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,220
me, they're nowhere near a leader.

608
00:55:51,220 --> 00:55:53,720
And this is why I think we keep having these problems.

609
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:59,100
If we had a system that actually allowed real leaders to come in, that didn't have to be

610
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:05,040
extremely wealthy, didn't have to be devoid of ethics, so you take money from lobbyists,

611
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,560
we wouldn't have as many of these problems because these leaders would pull us together.

612
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:15,800
But instead, we're cleaved as a nation by these two polarizing figures every four years

613
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,320
that they don't want the country united.

614
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,120
United we stand.

615
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:28,360
Well, to me, the initial question is, who wants the job?

616
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,120
Why do you want to be president?

617
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,640
But it was a sought after profession.

618
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,960
You're not doing it for the money.

619
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,920
Years ago, it was a very prestigious role, you know what I mean?

620
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:40,560
And so this is the problem.

621
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,680
How do we get here?

622
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:50,360
Well years ago, it was a prestigious post because America was a prestigious country.

623
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:56,800
I think it goes back to the fact that, you know, America on the world stage is a diminished

624
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:57,800
character now.

625
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:06,520
I mean, just take a look at the absence of any significant influence that American policy

626
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,560
has in the Middle East.

627
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:19,280
You know, we just don't have the image, the force, the wherewithal.

628
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:27,920
And I'm not saying that, you know, that the country as a whole should be the bully boy on the block.

629
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:32,000
But we should be able to exert more influence.

630
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:40,400
But I think we're weakened as the world looks at the state we're in now.

631
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:46,640
You know, we've got an election for the most important position in the country that's in

632
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,380
the mud.

633
00:57:48,380 --> 00:57:52,800
Have you ever seen a film called Idiocracy?

634
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,560
It was a tongue in cheek comedy.

635
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,600
I think it's about 20 years old now.

636
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:04,480
And it's, there's this, on that theory that you got all these career people and they're

637
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,840
following their career and they might maybe have one kid in their late 30s.

638
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,520
And then you have other groups of people that are, you know, having all kinds of children.

639
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:18,020
And the whole tongue in cheek perspective is that the country gets dumber and dumber.

640
00:58:18,020 --> 00:58:24,160
And the president at this point now, fast forward, is a former WWF wrestler.

641
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,120
And ironically, everyone's wearing Crocs.

642
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,280
And the backstory is the costume designer was like, well, no one's ever going to wear

643
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:32,360
Crocs in the future.

644
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,460
So we'll use that as the costume choice.

645
00:58:34,460 --> 00:58:35,460
Here we are now.

646
00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:37,600
And most people are wearing Crocs.

647
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,960
But the whole point is if you listen to the way that they're talking, it's literally how

648
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,360
this social media back and forth is.

649
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,240
We have arrived at Idiocracy.

650
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:53,640
And it's, the politics now has become like the preamble of a wrestling match rather than

651
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:58,760
two groups of mature people who, you know, if one doesn't succeed in the run, then you're

652
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,400
like, well, they're still, they're still good.

653
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,540
They're going to support each other.

654
00:59:01,540 --> 00:59:03,480
The country is first.

655
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:08,160
But as one of my guests said to me, we've got to remember that we are the poster for

656
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,600
democracy.

657
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,320
But if you look at our statistics, you know, it's 70% obese or overweight.

658
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,360
We consume 75% of the world's opioids.

659
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,520
We're 4% of the population, but we have 20% of the world's incarcerated population.

660
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,360
You know, our education is in the toilet.

661
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,360
I mean, it's not down on us.

662
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:30,800
It's just we are allowing this politics to start driving our country into the ground.

663
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,240
And those are the topics that we need politicians to be talking about, not eating animals in

664
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,520
Springfield or, you know, all these other ridiculous things.

665
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:43,880
Well, that goes back to what I was saying that America is diminished, diminished now

666
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,840
as a world leader.

667
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:51,320
I mean, people look at this shining, you know, city on the hill and they say, well, yeah,

668
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:52,760
but the city's got no lights on.

669
00:59:52,760 --> 01:00:04,760
I mean, and the the problems in this country for what this country is are remarkable.

670
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:11,240
And I don't hear many real time real life solutions from anyone.

671
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:18,760
I've come to the point now that I'm just really looking forward to this election being over.

672
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:23,240
I mean, I just can't listen to I mean, promise after promise.

673
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:31,120
And you know, either Democrat or Republican, the speakers know 90% of the promises they're

674
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,160
making are unachievable.

675
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:42,920
You know, they're the realism of politics, I think has left us.

676
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:52,720
I think, you know, it's a desperate drive for superiority.

677
01:00:52,720 --> 01:01:00,880
But once having achieved that superiority, what you do with it is the danger.

678
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:09,560
I mean, you know, the Democrats are far too liberal.

679
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,240
The Republicans cater to only to the rich.

680
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:18,320
I mean, I mean, I don't I don't get it.

681
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,640
Sometimes it makes my head swim.

682
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:23,640
And then I get a headache.

683
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:30,640
Well, what I mean, just to put it into fixable things, when I was talking to Tulsi Gabbard,

684
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,080
the common denominator is the same even in the fire service, why we're losing so many

685
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,640
firefighters is it's a it's a false economy.

686
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,600
You know, and you look at the obesity crisis, there's all this pushback on, for example,

687
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:47,260
national health, which is what I grew up with as a little boy in England, amazing system

688
01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:50,680
when it's funded and you know, staff properly.

689
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:56,160
But you know, what we've done is we've allowed we've allowed the country to become fat and

690
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:57,160
sick.

691
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:01,920
And you have this incredible millions and millions and millions of people who are legal

692
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:07,360
drug addicts, statins, hypertension meds, I mean, all the things versus a proactive

693
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,640
thing like let's make our country healthy.

694
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,860
Now we won't be draining, you know, this, you know, billions, if not trillions of dollars

695
01:02:13,860 --> 01:02:15,240
on health care.

696
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,560
You know, so this, you know, you look at the mental health crisis, the same thing you look

697
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:24,720
at the violence in the schools, you know, all these elements, if you if you invest in

698
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,440
the front, you can fix these problems. But the problem is, drug companies make a lot

699
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:30,440
of money.

700
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,840
You know, I mean, you saw like ecstasy just get turned down.

701
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:39,760
So MDMA for mental health therapy, but Oxycontin, which started the opioid crisis was FDA approved.

702
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:40,760
Well exactly.

703
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,880
But it goes back to the root of what America is.

704
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,440
It's a capitalistic system.

705
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,040
It's for certain people to make as much money as they can.

706
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,160
How they can.

707
01:02:53,160 --> 01:03:06,760
I mean, I am floored when I occasionally watch regular what I'll call regular television

708
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:07,760
by the commercials.

709
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:16,560
If I watch one of the 630 evening news shows, all the commercials are aimed at an older

710
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:17,840
population.

711
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,400
They're all for medical products.

712
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:28,680
I'm telling you, I mean, and I get a kick out of these commercials.

713
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:37,040
If a minute commercial runs, the last 20 seconds are a voiceover in fast, cicado language about

714
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,040
all the dangers.

715
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:39,040
Exactly.

716
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,520
The side effects, which most of the illicit drugs don't.

717
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,000
By the way, you could die if you take this.

718
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,000
Exactly.

719
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,000
I love the antidepressant ones.

720
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,960
The suicide is one of the byproducts, you know, I mean, that's that's isn't that mean

721
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:54,000
that it doesn't work if a mental health drug is causing suicide ideation?

722
01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:04,360
Look, it costs a lot of money to fix a lot of the societal ills of this country.

723
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:10,160
And it involves plowing money in to the fixes.

724
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:16,160
There's very little capitalistic financial return into fixing a lot of these problems.

725
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:17,160
Same as the fire service.

726
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,000
It's not supposed to make money.

727
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,000
It's a service.

728
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:25,040
And just, you know, hours from now, as we sit here or days again, the fire service,

729
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,640
EMS, law enforcement, people are going to be screaming for them.

730
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:33,400
But those people are nowhere to be seen when they need staffing and, you know, more time

731
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,120
off and more training.

732
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:41,880
I'll digress for a minute and tell you a personal story.

733
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:48,960
One of the reasons we moved here to Gainesville, north central Florida, there were two private

734
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,200
primary reasons and they were 50 50.

735
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,560
One was to get away from the coast and the hurricanes.

736
01:04:55,560 --> 01:05:04,440
And the other was because of the exquisite University of Florida health system that exists

737
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:05,440
here.

738
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:13,160
I mean, Gainesville is, as I call it, a medical city.

739
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:24,960
I have my retiree health plan with UnitedHealthcare.

740
01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,920
When I came to Gainesville, the first thing I did was get in touch with the University

741
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:36,240
of Florida health system, which takes UnitedHealthcare.

742
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:43,220
And I got a general practitioner who I went to and then had that general practitioner relay

743
01:05:43,220 --> 01:05:45,360
me to other doctors.

744
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:52,980
I wanted to see an orthopedic doctor, a vascular doctor, a heart doctor for just a checkup.

745
01:05:52,980 --> 01:05:59,000
And I had appointments within three weeks to see all these other specialists.

746
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,280
I mean, amazing.

747
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,200
All right.

748
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:14,400
Then in late July, I got a letter from the University of Florida health system and said,

749
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:21,440
as of September 1st, we are no longer affiliated with UnitedHealthcare.

750
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:31,820
So I made some inquiries, could never get a straight answer, but discovered the issue

751
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:35,280
was obviously money.

752
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,960
And they never worked it out.

753
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:50,160
So as of September 1st, I could no longer see my five University of Florida health doctors

754
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,640
because they all took UnitedHealthcare.

755
01:06:54,640 --> 01:07:01,720
So I've had to find other physicians in the area who are still affiliated with UnitedHealthcare.

756
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:05,400
And there aren't that many.

757
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:11,320
So you talk about the capitalistic system in health.

758
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:23,240
Here is a poor patient who's stuck between two behemoths arguing over a dollar sign.

759
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:30,120
I mean, I've always been an advocate of universal health care.

760
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:36,800
I mean, a country this big and this well equipped in the medical field should be able to provide

761
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:37,800
that.

762
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,960
Well, Roosevelt was going to, from what I understand.

763
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:43,600
And then when he passed, they scrapped it.

764
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:49,060
Because you look at it, Japan and Germany, our two enemies in the war, they got a version

765
01:07:49,060 --> 01:07:53,000
of universal health care and we got this profit based system.

766
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:54,000
But you were right.

767
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:59,720
You mentioned earlier, this is a country of lobbyists.

768
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,700
You know, which lobby is going to contribute the most?

769
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:04,800
Which lobby is going to talk the loudest?

770
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:05,800
Yeah.

771
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:06,800
Yeah.

772
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:07,800
And it doesn't benefit the people.

773
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,600
And this is the thing I tell, tell this story once in a while.

774
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:15,680
My granddad got cancer at 99 years old.

775
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,760
And the guy was, he was so fit and healthy prior to that, that the cancer actually spread

776
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,240
like he was a young person.

777
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,600
That's how he probably would have lived years, years beyond that.

778
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,200
Got T-boned in the car is how they found it.

779
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,640
And I asked him, you know, did they put you on a backboard?

780
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:30,640
And he's like, did who?

781
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:31,640
I was like the ambulance.

782
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:33,320
He said, I didn't call an ambulance.

783
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,440
45 miles an hour, T-bone.

784
01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:39,840
Anyway, but through the bruising and everything, they found this cancer.

785
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:46,760
And I watched him get the most amazing care as he went into hospice and he was at home

786
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:48,040
and he had a hospital bed put in.

787
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,680
He had nurse visits, he had doctor's visits.

788
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:54,920
They visited my grandmother after he passed for like another week or so, removed all the

789
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:55,920
gear.

790
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:56,920
That was all national health.

791
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:02,240
And he had paid for private insurance, but Bupa in England, every year you get older,

792
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:04,560
they bump the premium more and more and more.

793
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:05,760
So they paid their whole life.

794
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,600
And when they actually came to use it, they couldn't afford it anymore.

795
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,340
So it was a national health that took care of my granddad.

796
01:09:11,340 --> 01:09:16,360
So when you hear these horror stories, yeah, if you're in inner city London or Manchester,

797
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,440
you know, and you see an overwhelmed ER, and yeah, you're probably not going to get the

798
01:09:19,440 --> 01:09:23,740
best service compared to, you know, more rural where I lived.

799
01:09:23,740 --> 01:09:27,960
But that's what the national health is supposed to be like, you know, lots of doctors, lots

800
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:33,920
of, you know, support, lots of places, and then a proactive initiative to make British

801
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:34,920
people healthy.

802
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:36,520
So you don't use it very much.

803
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:37,720
That's the model.

804
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:42,240
But now the British are not too far behind the Americans and there's a lot of, you know,

805
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,720
obesity and ill health growing there too.

806
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,280
So this is the issue.

807
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,880
Having seen what national health looks like, that is the answer.

808
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:56,320
I mean, Finland has an amazing health care, sorry, school system, Norway has prisons,

809
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:02,840
Finland, sorry, Portugal's drug policy in Switzerland, but the UK, the national health,

810
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:04,320
I think, is the world's best.

811
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,560
I really do.

812
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:19,480
No, I cannot understand the obstruction to having a national health system.

813
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:22,160
I mean, you just got to do it properly.

814
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:23,920
You got to do it the right way.

815
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,040
But obviously in America, you'd have to do it simultaneously with improving health.

816
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:33,880
But let's ask ourselves, who doesn't benefit from a universal health care system?

817
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:35,200
Drug companies, and they will.

818
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,120
This is the thing, you ask British physicians.

819
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:38,120
Who doesn't benefit?

820
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:39,120
Yeah, but the lobbyists.

821
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:40,120
The lobbyists.

822
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:41,120
Oh, I see what you're saying.

823
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:42,120
Yeah.

824
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,120
Not the lobbyists, the clients of the lobbyists.

825
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:50,960
Look, you know, there's always a lot of talk about the cost of prescription drugs in this

826
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:51,960
country.

827
01:10:51,960 --> 01:11:05,480
You know, why can a weight loss drug in this country cost $1,500 a month for use?

828
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:10,680
And in the UK, the same drug is $90.

829
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:11,680
How can that be?

830
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,880
Well, I could tell you how it could be.

831
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:19,400
The company that manufactures the drug is making a lot more in this country.

832
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:20,400
100%.

833
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,360
And then again, even with, it was a perfect example.

834
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,800
When the gas and diesel prices went through the roof, you know, was it a couple years

835
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:32,360
ago now, the whole conversation was, you know, what's wrong?

836
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,000
The prices are so high, it's not fair.

837
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:39,240
But there was no conversation on why am I driving, you know, a suburban that's the size

838
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:40,240
of a school bus.

839
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:42,600
It's the size of me, my husband and my one child.

840
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,440
You know, so it's the same with the prescription meds.

841
01:11:44,440 --> 01:11:49,320
We should be asking, well, how do we get Americans to take less medicine as well, which is getting

842
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:50,320
them healthier?

843
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:56,160
Well, you know, the drug companies will say, well, you know, we have to charge these exorbitant

844
01:11:56,160 --> 01:12:02,860
prices because it all goes into what we call R&D, you know, research and development.

845
01:12:02,860 --> 01:12:10,120
And I'd say, well, the research and the development has already been done on your $1,500 a month

846
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:12,280
obesity drug.

847
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,480
So you're not pouring any money into that.

848
01:12:15,480 --> 01:12:18,600
So why not drop the price of that drug?

849
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,720
Well, if we do that, then we won't have that R&D money.

850
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,000
So we go on to the next fix.

851
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:26,000
Yeah.

852
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:29,760
I mean, just go look at the Oxycontin story, you know, the Sacklers did.

853
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:31,400
I mean, it's there.

854
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:35,960
I remember being in Broward County, literally in a doctor's office trying to get to see

855
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:41,480
the doctor and, you know, drug rep after drug rep after drug rep went in, you know, all

856
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:46,160
like look like models, you know, with their little wheelie sample case.

857
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:50,240
And then you go in and they're throwing meds at you, you know, and this is a profit based

858
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:51,600
health care system.

859
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:52,600
And what's the result?

860
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:57,640
I always say even with the fire service, if the way we do it profit, profit, profit, health

861
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,800
system in a capitalist society, come on.

862
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,480
Well, if it worked, then we'd have a healthy nation.

863
01:13:03,480 --> 01:13:04,480
It's that simple.

864
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:05,480
Is it working?

865
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:06,560
We don't have a healthy nation.

866
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,560
So there's your, you know, you don't need any more evidence.

867
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:21,760
No, it's shameful that a nation with the resources that are available here and the medical care

868
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,560
that's available here.

869
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:34,720
If that medical care was applied to a universal health system, I mean, Americans would be

870
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:36,600
a lot healthier, a lot happier.

871
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,160
They'd live longer.

872
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:39,800
They'd prosper more.

873
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:40,800
Yeah.

874
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:41,800
Yeah.

875
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:46,800
One of the most heartbreaking things that I saw when I first became a firefighter here

876
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:51,880
was you walk into an ER with a patient and the first thing that they're asked is their

877
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:56,920
social security number so they can start the billing, you know, not, you know, are you

878
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:57,920
okay?

879
01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:58,920
What's wrong?

880
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,040
I mean, obviously we would tell the nurses that, but immediately there's an admin person

881
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,960
with a, you know, used to be a clipboard, now it's a computer taking all their details

882
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:07,440
so they can start the billing.

883
01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:08,440
Absolutely.

884
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:14,880
You walk into the doctor's office, they don't say, what can we do for you?

885
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,800
It's insurance card and driver's license, please.

886
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:19,800
Yeah.

887
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:23,000
Well, I don't have an insurance card.

888
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,200
Next.

889
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:29,440
My dad just had a PE, had knee surgery and he threw a clot and it went to his lung.

890
01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:34,640
So he had an ambulance ride and granted, I'll be fair, that particular hospital, he waited

891
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:39,360
a long time to be seen, but again, the NHS has been stripped, you know, it's not the

892
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,120
way it's supposed to be at the moment.

893
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,400
They've absolutely slaughtered it.

894
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:48,240
But you know, he had, he was in the ER for several days, you know, like I said, ambulance

895
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:51,600
ride, all these drugs, all these therapies to take away with him, everything.

896
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:53,200
Didn't cost him a penny.

897
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:54,920
Zero pennies, you know?

898
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:59,760
So the patient goes in and all they got to think about is getting better, you know?

899
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,120
Whereas here you have the audacity to get cancer, well now you're thinking, am I going

900
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:04,520
to lose my house as well?

901
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,080
Because I'm never going to be able to pay these bills.

902
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:08,080
Right.

903
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:17,160
Well, my wife had a complete right knee replacement in late June.

904
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:27,880
A very successful operation done by a very good surgeon here, with whom we had two or

905
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:32,760
three follow-up visits.

906
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:36,880
And he pronounced everything going well on track and you're a little bit ahead of the

907
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:37,880
game.

908
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:48,120
And the last time we went, he scheduled the next appointment and it was for September

909
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:49,120
16th.

910
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:54,760
And he said, listen, I'm just giving you this appointment September 16th, but I'm not going

911
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:55,760
to be seeing you.

912
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:56,760
I said, why?

913
01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:05,040
He said, well, because UnitedHealthcare and the University of Florida part ways on September

914
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,560
1st.

915
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:13,280
So as she recovers from her knee replacement, she can't go back and see the surgeon who

916
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:15,240
did it.

917
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:24,360
The physical therapy outfit that she was seeing, she can't go back because they won't take

918
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:25,360
insurance.

919
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:30,800
You've completely messed up the care now.

920
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:41,480
I said to myself, well, at least you had almost two months of recovery under the aegis and

921
01:16:41,480 --> 01:16:45,800
the care of the good doctors.

922
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,400
But then you're on your own.

923
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:49,400
Yeah.

924
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:50,400
And this is the thing.

925
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,320
I mean, like I said, when you've seen it done better, even with Portugal, I sat with the

926
01:16:54,320 --> 01:17:00,240
guy that spearheaded the decriminalizing addiction with Zsao Gulao in Lisbon.

927
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:01,240
And it was amazing.

928
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:02,680
He showed me around the facilities.

929
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:06,400
And when you proactively, like you said, invest and you educate the people, like here's what

930
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:07,400
we're going to do.

931
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:11,720
We're going to use a lot of money, taxpayers money, but we're going to decriminalize addiction.

932
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:13,160
We're going to build these addiction centers.

933
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:14,760
We're going to build these mental health facilities.

934
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:16,400
There's going to be job creation.

935
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:18,020
There's going to be housing.

936
01:17:18,020 --> 01:17:21,720
But this homelessness and this addiction that you're seeing and these loved ones that you're

937
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,040
losing, we're going to address that.

938
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:25,320
That's a proactive element.

939
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:26,760
It's the same with this.

940
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:31,400
In the NHS, especially the one that I knew when I was growing up, there wouldn't be a

941
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:32,440
break in care.

942
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:35,620
You would see those same physicians from the beginning to the end.

943
01:17:35,620 --> 01:17:36,620
It wouldn't be this.

944
01:17:36,620 --> 01:17:39,440
You know, this has happened to so many people.

945
01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:45,240
I've got a friend who's a firefighter and his wife has cancer and she was on a very

946
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:53,180
expensive chemo drug and the fire department changed insurances on him and he had to pay

947
01:17:53,180 --> 01:17:54,880
out of pocket.

948
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,560
Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.

949
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,560
You know, that's just that's not for the people.

950
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:01,560
So this is the thing.

951
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,800
You know, you get the national health kind of labeled as socialized medicine, like you're

952
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:10,160
going to have these, you know, hammers and sickles all through the hospital.

953
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,560
But all it means is altruistic medicine.

954
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:14,160
Let's make a healthy population.

955
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,800
Let's take care of the people that need it so they don't have to worry about anything

956
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:19,520
other than getting better.

957
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:28,640
Oh, no, I don't I'm still stumped by the fact that this country for all its genius cannot

958
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:32,400
come up with a universal health system.

959
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:34,960
I mean, absolutely.

960
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:39,240
Well, I want to shift to one more topic and then be mindful of your time because we've

961
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,400
got to help get ready for this next hurricane.

962
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,400
But one thing as I told you, price of admission.

963
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:46,400
Absolutely.

964
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:51,240
You got to help me shove some furniture and in case Milton comes knocking.

965
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:52,240
Absolutely.

966
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:53,600
I'd be more than happy to.

967
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:59,280
One thing I didn't ask you about last time, which I fell into this eight years ago, but

968
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:03,640
I'd love to get your take is actually the art of interviewing.

969
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:09,480
What was your kind of, you know, your your your journey into it?

970
01:19:09,480 --> 01:19:13,720
And then what what skills or tools have you used along the years?

971
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:18,080
Because I mean, just to recap, you were the first person that interviewed Nelson Mandela

972
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:19,720
after he got out of Robben Island.

973
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:24,240
So clearly you got to a point where you were extremely trusted.

974
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,080
So what about the art of conversation?

975
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,640
Because I think that's something that as again, with this whole idiocracy thing, I think it's

976
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,720
lost these days.

977
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:43,040
Well, the Mandela case was kind of an outlier because CBS News, through no fault of our

978
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:52,720
own, I may add, had a very bad reputation in South Africa with the South African government.

979
01:19:52,720 --> 01:20:01,080
We did a lot of reporting during the apartheid days about the evils of apartheid and the

980
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:05,800
toll it was taking on an entire society.

981
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:15,080
And the Mandela family are reporting put us in good favor with the Mandela family.

982
01:20:15,080 --> 01:20:17,440
That may be the reason we got the first interview.

983
01:20:17,440 --> 01:20:20,880
I'm not sure.

984
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:28,440
But I'll tell you a story and it goes back to hurricanes.

985
01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:35,000
I remember in the aftermath of one hurricane, we came upon a family sitting outside their

986
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:44,080
damaged home and their neighbors in an almost equally damaged home next door to them were

987
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:45,080
with them.

988
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:49,760
So a group of, I don't know, eight to 10 people, adults and children.

989
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:56,640
And we walked up to them and said, can we talk to you a little bit about what happened

990
01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:57,640
here?

991
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,680
And we were met with great animosity.

992
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:01,680
Get out, you people.

993
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:02,680
You just come here.

994
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:06,040
You're bloodsuckers and you don't care.

995
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:10,440
So I didn't want to get into a prolonged argument with these people.

996
01:21:10,440 --> 01:21:12,240
But I said, wait a minute, wait a minute.

997
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:13,240
I got angry actually.

998
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:16,240
I said, we're not here bloodsuckers.

999
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:18,240
I said, you don't have to talk to us.

1000
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:19,560
I understand that.

1001
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:20,600
That's your right.

1002
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,760
It's also my right to ask you if you want to.

1003
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:26,880
And I said, you must understand something.

1004
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:31,680
We're not here to make light of the situation.

1005
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:38,480
But if we talk to people like you and you can tell us your experiences, what you've

1006
01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:44,480
gone through, what you're going through, et cetera, that gets a message out.

1007
01:21:44,480 --> 01:21:46,840
Maybe yes, you need more help here.

1008
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:48,920
You're not getting enough attention.

1009
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:49,920
People hear that.

1010
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,520
The government hears that.

1011
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:59,140
I said, I don't understand why you think we're here working against you.

1012
01:21:59,140 --> 01:22:02,680
So we had about a five minute conversation back and forth about that.

1013
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,560
And they said, OK, yeah, you can talk to us.

1014
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:06,840
We'll tell you.

1015
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:15,860
So I think I have to be careful how I say this.

1016
01:22:15,860 --> 01:22:25,400
But an interviewer has to be somewhat sympathetic to the plight of the subject.

1017
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:31,200
Now that doesn't mean you have to agree with everything.

1018
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:41,920
But you have to establish some kind of rapport of honesty and kind of sympathy.

1019
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:43,840
I haven't gone through a hurricane.

1020
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:46,520
I don't understand what it's like.

1021
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:50,740
What's it like?

1022
01:22:50,740 --> 01:22:59,320
So you've got to establish a playing field that kind of levels out that you're not seen

1023
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:08,160
as just a blood sucking publicity grabbing horror.

1024
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:10,240
But you've got some empathy.

1025
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:16,320
You just, as I used to tell people, we want to tell your story.

1026
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:18,160
I'm not telling my story.

1027
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,360
It's your story that counts here.

1028
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:27,480
And sometimes it takes some work to do that.

1029
01:23:27,480 --> 01:23:31,900
It's hard.

1030
01:23:31,900 --> 01:23:43,800
And then equally important, once an interview starts, if you hear something that one of

1031
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:50,320
the great lost arts of interviewing now is the follow up question.

1032
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:57,120
Too often interviewers go in with a list of, okay, this is Harry Smith.

1033
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:00,200
His house was damaged on this date.

1034
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,720
I've got four questions for Harry.

1035
01:24:02,720 --> 01:24:06,800
And you ask question number one, and obviously there's a follow up, but you stick to your

1036
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:08,840
list.

1037
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:17,240
So the interviewer has to be extremely flexible and listen to an answer and say, there may

1038
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:23,640
be more, there may be something even more important.

1039
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:31,240
And you say, well, let me just clarify or let me ask you about what you said.

1040
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:36,320
And that I think elicits more of a conversation.

1041
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:41,640
I mean, you really don't want the interview to be horribly confrontational, except in

1042
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:42,640
some cases.

1043
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:51,480
I mean, and it has to be, you have to, you have to involve yourself with the subject.

1044
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:57,680
And as I said earlier, in the case of a hurricane, it's difficult because these people have gone

1045
01:24:57,680 --> 01:24:58,680
through it.

1046
01:24:58,680 --> 01:24:59,680
They've lost everything.

1047
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:08,760
You know, you're going to drive 40 miles back up the road tonight and sleep in a hotel.

1048
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:12,240
So you've got to have some empathy and sympathy.

1049
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:13,800
You also can't roll over.

1050
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:23,400
I mean, every, every situation is different, but I think the most important thing is for

1051
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:27,920
the interviewer to make them, you know, believable.

1052
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,920
You know, you have to, you do have to sell yourself.

1053
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:32,760
You don't want to oversell.

1054
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:33,760
That's a crime.

1055
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:43,760
I mean, but you want to explain, you know, we're not here to get ratings because of you.

1056
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:49,920
We're here that maybe somebody hears your story and says they need help.

1057
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:50,920
Sometimes it works.

1058
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:52,860
Sometimes it doesn't.

1059
01:25:52,860 --> 01:25:57,360
When I think of the, the blood sucking journalism to me, the image that pops up immediately

1060
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:02,800
is for example, after a school shooting, they're sticking microphones in parents faces who

1061
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:05,080
just lost a child.

1062
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:10,840
So when you look at that, where is that line?

1063
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:20,400
The most important thing is as an interviewer, you have to mature enough to understand the

1064
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:28,440
difference between being involved in a story, getting a story and the extraordinary right

1065
01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:33,880
of privacy that people deserve.

1066
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:48,320
I mean, I got into a lot of trouble at CBS one day in the aftermath of some disaster.

1067
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:56,720
Like I'm, I can't recall the particulars, but it must have been a storm or a tornado

1068
01:26:56,720 --> 01:27:06,200
or the town was, it was, you know, heavily damaged.

1069
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:14,560
And that night under a famous tree that still existed in the town, there was like a prayer

1070
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:15,560
meeting.

1071
01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:17,560
Right.

1072
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:26,600
And my bosses in New York said, we want you to take the crew and go over to the prayer

1073
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:28,240
meeting and talk to those people.

1074
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:32,080
And I said, no F in way.

1075
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:36,520
I said, if they break up and disperse, I'll walk over a couple who are leaving.

1076
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:41,120
I said, but I'm not going to wade into their prayer meeting.

1077
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:42,120
And it became a big country.

1078
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:45,120
Well, I'm at hand, there'll be consequences if you don't.

1079
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,760
I said, I'll take the consequences.

1080
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,800
I'm not doing it.

1081
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:56,960
Unfortunately, there were no consequences, but there were a couple of tough moments.

1082
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:07,080
So you know, you know, as a reporter, a journalist, automatically you're intruding on another

1083
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:08,880
person's life.

1084
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:16,640
You've got to be smart enough to know there's a line, you know, these people deserve their

1085
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:22,500
moment of, you know, morning silence, remembrance, whatever.

1086
01:28:22,500 --> 01:28:23,800
You're not part of it.

1087
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:28,280
You're there to observe, as I said, not participate.

1088
01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:34,580
Unfortunately, there are a lot of journalists who don't mind barging right into the middle

1089
01:28:34,580 --> 01:28:37,680
of your living room while you're, you know,

1090
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:44,360
or the other side of that, what I see as well, a lot is, for example, there might be a shooting

1091
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:50,360
and the journalist is interviewing someone who walked by an hour later, you know, or

1092
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:53,440
the weather guy is trying to pretend that the weather's really bad and then someone's

1093
01:28:53,440 --> 01:28:56,720
walking their dog right behind them and you can see that it's not deep.

1094
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:57,800
So what about that side?

1095
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,920
How does that, you know, kind of sit with you?

1096
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,800
You know, that's just bad media.

1097
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:13,280
I mean, that's, you know, and you, you most often see that on a local or level of television

1098
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:21,880
than when people ascend to like networks that usually they've been around the block a couple

1099
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:28,560
of times and understand there are some rules, but you know, it's, it's the nature of a lot

1100
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:33,800
of journalists who, you know, go for the home run.

1101
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:34,800
Holy cow.

1102
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:36,120
Look, that person over there is crying.

1103
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:39,400
Let's get over there.

1104
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:40,680
I don't care what she has to say.

1105
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:44,120
She's crying.

1106
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:46,720
What about the long form conversation?

1107
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:51,280
One of the beautiful things about this, about podcasts is you get to sit with someone for

1108
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:55,320
an hour or two hours, whatever it is, and have this back and forth.

1109
01:29:55,320 --> 01:29:59,720
And, you know, like I said, it was Tulsi or whoever, now you get to hear, oh, this is

1110
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:01,040
this person's early life.

1111
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:05,720
This is, you know, the kind of family dynamic and this is the spiritual beliefs.

1112
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,000
And now, you know, they're, they're an athlete, they're a member of the military, and you

1113
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:11,360
paint this whole picture of this person.

1114
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:15,160
And a lot of times, you know, Joe Rogan is a good example of Bernie Sanders and some

1115
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:17,220
of the politicians he's had on.

1116
01:30:17,220 --> 01:30:22,120
You come away going, thank God, like for the first time, I've actually heard this person

1117
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:27,480
entirely talk about, you know, a concept and learned about who they are.

1118
01:30:27,480 --> 01:30:29,320
What is your kind of perspective of that?

1119
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:36,960
We have such a soundbite kind of social media clickbait environment at the moment, that

1120
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:42,280
long form conversation, the need to go back to kind of the kind of journalistic 60 minutes

1121
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:47,200
era that you grew up with.

1122
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:54,600
Those days of 60 minutes of journalism are done.

1123
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,440
It's not going to be replicated.

1124
01:30:57,440 --> 01:31:02,920
The country is too polarized.

1125
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:11,240
And most of the things you see now on television are not news shows.

1126
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:13,600
They're opinion shows.

1127
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:23,200
I mean, you know, you've got Fox in one corner, MSNBC in another corner, CNN trying to find

1128
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:27,400
like a bit of a middle ground.

1129
01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:38,600
There's a, you know, it's gotten to either for us or against us.

1130
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:44,520
But there's an old expression, I forget some famous author, I think that, you know, a lie

1131
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:50,080
goes around the world five times faster than the truth can catch it.

1132
01:31:50,080 --> 01:32:00,680
And in this country, it's been determined by our leaders and our potential leaders that,

1133
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:06,040
yeah, you can get away with exaggerations and lying.

1134
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:10,640
But somebody is going to report it.

1135
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:25,440
And you know, I said to someone the other day, the only growth industry that Trump can point

1136
01:32:25,440 --> 01:32:31,520
to is the number of fact checkers that have been hired.

1137
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:35,000
Like I said, I might just see this on both ends, you know, we're just bleeding money

1138
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:40,120
as taxpayers looking into all these people, you know, and it's just, God, if you just

1139
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:45,000
get some good human beings back in there, you know, then we wouldn't be worried about

1140
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:50,760
scandals and lies that these people would have good ethics and, you know, actually act

1141
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:54,040
on what they said they were going to do.

1142
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:57,960
Well, you can't be all things to all people.

1143
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:01,360
So therefore, that's when the promises come in.

1144
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:03,280
I'll promise all things to all people.

1145
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:05,360
I'll deliver on 10%.

1146
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:07,440
Yeah, exactly.

1147
01:33:07,440 --> 01:33:09,560
But one more one more kind of closing one.

1148
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:14,560
I heard someone think it was Joe Rogan actually say, maybe it was him or his guests, I forget.

1149
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:22,120
But they were talking about the news, the media almost reaching its expiration date,

1150
01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:26,440
you know, there was there was a danger because we've got, as you said, opinions now on news

1151
01:33:26,440 --> 01:33:28,680
that it was actually going to nosedive.

1152
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:31,440
What's your perspective on that?

1153
01:33:31,440 --> 01:33:41,560
Well, I think the days of what I refer to as good media, for instance, example, 60 minutes

1154
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:50,840
are diminished dying because of the advent of what is called social media.

1155
01:33:50,840 --> 01:33:59,120
I mean, social media is an unfettered reservoir of whatever.

1156
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:02,480
They can say anything.

1157
01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:05,800
Social media has no guardrails.

1158
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,000
It's got no bumpers.

1159
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:10,000
I mean, you do.

1160
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,040
It's the Wild West.

1161
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:16,040
I think, you know, I don't know how you regulate it.

1162
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,440
I mean, it's easy for me to criticize it.

1163
01:34:18,440 --> 01:34:28,180
But how you regulate it without getting diving deep into free speech, provisions, etc.

1164
01:34:28,180 --> 01:34:36,240
But I mean, it's a it's a dangerous megaphone that's out there now.

1165
01:34:36,240 --> 01:34:40,560
It's loud and too many people don't hear it.

1166
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:42,560
And even worse, believe it.

1167
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:48,680
Like you were talking about, you know, Robert Kennedy Jr.

1168
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:56,520
I mean, I thought, given this guy's sense about evacuation, you know, inoculations,

1169
01:34:56,520 --> 01:35:00,920
I think that how can I believe him?

1170
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:07,480
You know, he lost all credibility with me, with some of his denials of things.

1171
01:35:07,480 --> 01:35:13,560
I mean, it's one thing to espouse a point of view.

1172
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:20,840
But when your point of view has been disproven, either by science or in the case of another

1173
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:26,080
politician in the courts, how do you stick by them?

1174
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:28,680
How do you keep peddling them?

1175
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:31,920
I don't get it.

1176
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:40,440
I just don't understand how again, there's no realization of, yeah, well, you know, I

1177
01:35:40,440 --> 01:35:41,600
may be wrong about that.

1178
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,920
No, I'm never wrong.

1179
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,000
So how can we fix it?

1180
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:49,160
I think I asked you, King, for a day last time.

1181
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:54,760
But from a journalism news station point of view, because I think last time when we talked,

1182
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:58,920
you held the BBC still highly as far as news.

1183
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:03,960
And I've seen even a slight decline in that being pulled towards the American model slightly.

1184
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,160
But how do we put that back?

1185
01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:12,000
How do we turn that around so that we can have these middle of the road, you know, honest

1186
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:15,880
voices asking the questions that need to be asked?

1187
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:18,760
I think we're well around the bend.

1188
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:25,200
I don't think we're ever going to get back to that, I think we're always going to be a

1189
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:30,040
polarized media and therefore a polarized country.

1190
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:35,640
I mean, I don't think you can recover at this point.

1191
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,040
You know, it's like Haiti.

1192
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:42,160
You know, the root causes are so entrenched.

1193
01:36:42,160 --> 01:36:45,760
You're not going to recover.

1194
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:57,960
I mean, I don't want to say journalism is doomed, but it's getting on life support.

1195
01:36:57,960 --> 01:36:59,320
Absolutely.

1196
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:03,680
Well, I want to thank you for another amazing conversation.

1197
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:05,720
We're about to move some furniture in a second.

1198
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:11,120
But this, you know, coming from the background that you have and coming from the journalistic

1199
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:16,920
era that was still journalism, even though we touched on some more current events, your

1200
01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:24,520
perspective, I think, is invaluable because you are of that era where your perspective,

1201
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:26,920
I think, is rooted in the middle that we discussed.

1202
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:32,480
So I want to thank you so much for this second conversation inviting me to your Gainesville

1203
01:37:32,480 --> 01:37:35,360
home, which I hope is going to fare a lot better than the last one.

1204
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:44,440
Well, let's say this way, I mean, you know, I'm I'm all for a fair media, but I am demanding

1205
01:37:44,440 --> 01:37:48,080
of an accurate media.

1206
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:56,760
We can't skip over obvious miss faults, missteps, lies, provocations.

1207
01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:58,640
We've got to call attention to them.

1208
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:14,000
And damn it, if we lose audience or viewers, hey, at least we did our job.