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This episode is sponsored by BeaverFit.

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And as always, this is another company

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that I've not only been aware of for several years,

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but I also completely trust

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and I know is a great fit for this audience.

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Having not only been a firefighter in my career,

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but also a strength and conditioning coach,

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I've seen the challenges that we have

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getting the tactical athlete fit

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when it comes to budgets, when it comes to space.

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And BeaverFit has solutions for so many of our challenges.

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When it comes to space, they have the gym box, for example,

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which is literally the size of a foot locker

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that when you open it up and build it,

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becomes a squat rack, a pull-up bar, a box,

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and even a war ball target.

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So you can get a full workout for a crew

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purely on that one box.

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Expanding out, they have storage containers

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that become entire gyms.

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You store everything in the inside

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and you can then deploy racks

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and pull-up bars on the outside.

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They have gyms on trailers

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you can take from station to station.

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They have tactical boxes with breaching props

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and collapse props.

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And then on the flip side,

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the durability is another issue that we see.

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So often departments buy the low bid,

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the cheapest they can find.

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And ultimately that hard earned wellness budget

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gets wasted in equipment that rusts and falls apart.

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BeaverFit's gear is designed to be used

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in the most extreme environments,

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whether it's the deserts of the Middle East

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or simply on the deck of a naval ship.

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So they are designed to not only be outside,

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but to be beaten up by some of the most elite operators

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on the planet.

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If you wanna hear more about this company

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and I'm sure you do,

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listen to episode 477 with the original founder,

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Tom Beaver from the UK

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or the founders of BeaverFit USA,

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Alex Rudehouse and Mike Taylor on episode 457.

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Or visit BeaverFit USA

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and click on the military and tactical tab.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing

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and this week it is my absolute honor

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to welcome on the show,

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former Port Authority accountant

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and survivor of the 9-11 attacks, Peter Bitwinski.

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Now what makes this conversation so, so powerful,

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as you will hear,

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is that Peter was present during both attacks.

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So he relays the story of the first one in the 90s,

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the casualties, some of the heroism,

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some of the safety changes following that,

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and then his account of 9-11, 2001.

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Now Peter is a very humble man,

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but as you will hear,

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he and his colleagues ended up carrying down

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one of their wheelchair-bound employees

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from the 69th floor down to safety and beyond.

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He then ultimately also became a curator

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telling this story in the memorial.

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Now before we get to this incredibly important

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and powerful conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on,

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subscribe to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five-star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1,000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share

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these incredible men and women stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth

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who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said,

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I introduce to you Peter Bitwinski.

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The

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Enjoy.

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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The

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in Bayonne, New Jersey. And I, you know, my parents were individuals who had sort of

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diverse backgrounds. My father left high school after his sophomore year and ultimately went

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into the Navy. He spent a few years in the Navy. And then when he got out, had different

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jobs and ultimately settled in to work as a refinery worker at the Exxon plant in my

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town in Bayonne. So he was a refinery worker. My mom was trained as a nurse before she even

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got married. So she became a licensed practical nurse, kind of left that profession when she

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began to have kids. And she wound up having six kids. I have five siblings. I have three

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brothers and two sisters. And only one still lives in my town. They're kind of scattered

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east and west. But I maintain hopefully a good relationship with all. So I went to local

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schools. My parents were Catholic and they kind of focused on us going to Catholic schools

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as an education. So I went to a Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, graduated there

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and was working in a pharmacy from my senior year of high school and continued there as

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I went to a local college in the nearby town, Jersey City, St. Peter's College. And continued

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there until I graduated with an accounting degree. The story behind it is I was an undeclared

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major for two years. My father wanted me to get into pharmacy, which I had been a worker

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in the store. But the problem was Peter couldn't hack chemistry, didn't have a clue what they

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were talking about. So pharmacy was out. I wasn't really as brilliant as some of my other

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brothers and sisters. So I had to kind of struggle through school. But ultimately, I

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decided on accounting and I graduated with an accounting degree. And the thing was, when

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I graduated college, the economy was not good. There were, I guess, just many difficulties

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with the economy and not being the brightest and the sharpest guy, I struggled to get a

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permanent accounting job. I continued kind of working at the pharmacy. I got a few part-time

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accounting jobs with the accountants, but nothing permanent. And that was my goal, to get a

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permanent job. So I used to eat Sunday by the Sunday New York Times, I would cut out

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company articles, not even advertising for accounting jobs, just sending my resume with

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a cover letter to a company saying, if you have an accounting permanent job, I'm interested.

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Most of the time I got letters back saying, you know, they didn't have anything. One company,

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though, said that they didn't have anything, but they'd be in touch if they did. And that

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company was a local agency called Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. And six months

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later, after sending me that letter, they called me up and said, we don't have a permanent

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job, but we have a temporary job. Would you be interested in a temporary job? And myself,

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knowing the agency it was and the fact that it was a large agency with a lot of employees,

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I felt my chances were better than other temporary jobs. So I took the interview, I said, where

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do I go? And they told me, well, you're going to go to one World Trade Center, 69th floor,

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and you're going to meet with Mr. DeSanto and Mr. Giannaglia. And I said, okay. So that

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was my first entry into World Trade Center. I had the interview. I didn't necessarily,

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the interview went well, but so I had plenty of other interviews that went well, but I

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didn't get the jobs. So I didn't try to get my hopes too high. But two weeks later, they

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called me up and said, they're offering me a temporary job working in the World Trade

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Center. It was full-time hours, but just temporary in that it was only three months of duration.

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But I took it. I thought my chances were better than any accounting firms. And 42 and a half

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years later, I made it a career working for the Port Authority.

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Well, I want to go back to your parents for a second. Was your dad in the Navy during

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wartime or was it after?

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It was during World War II. He served some time in the Pacific. And he was very proud

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of the fact that he was a US Navy man. And he didn't talk to us often about it, but

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occasionally he did. And his brother, Eddie, also served in the Navy. And I always remembered

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him telling the one story when their boats came together and they were able to kind of

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connect with each other way out in the Pacific. And they had buddies too who were in the Navy

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from our town. And so in those days, military service was very, not that it isn't now, but

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it was almost a career and an honorable way for, there wasn't as many college graduates

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then. So he was proud of what he did.

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But when people bring up family members that were in that generation, when we think about

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it as younger people, we're like, it was the greatest generation. They just came back and

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they rolled up their sleeves and they made America great. And then you start hearing

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about dad, about granddad over and over again, and you realize, no, that's not the case.

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You can't just shirk off the horrors and the fear of warfare, especially in that theater,

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and then just come back with no counseling or conversation and just be fine. So when

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you look back, were there any impacts now having, obviously we're going to talk about

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9-11, so the trauma that you've experienced, were there any elements of that, maybe inability

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to really share what he went through that you saw through a young child's eyes back

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then?

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Yeah, I mean, my father, when he talked about the Navy, said he wasn't in any major warfare

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battles on the ship he was on. So it didn't appear that he had a lot of duress and a lot

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of difficulty. But, you know, honestly, when he came back, he was a drinker. He used to

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go across the street to the bar and, you know, he was an everyday drinker. He wasn't a total,

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you know, alcoholic, but, you know, I guess an everyday drinker is. Now, whether he was

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hiding anything that he didn't want to tell us, I don't know. It's possible. My parents

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did not have a good relationship. Kind of after I turned 11 or 12, it was growing, they

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were growing apart from each other. I could see it as a kid. I experienced it. And, you

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know, was his difficulty more with my mother or something through the Navy or something

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else? Hard to say. But, you know, he did have his struggles with alcohol.

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What about the refinery work? Was it requiring him to be away for a long time or was it local

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and therefore he was able to come home every day?

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Yeah, it was the latter. It was local. It was in the town. The only thing difficult about

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it was it was shift work. So he would work either, you know, seven to three, three to

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11 or 11 to seven. So each week was a different shift. And there were, you know, my father

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was a very dedicated guy and if they offered overtime, he would take a second shift. So

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he'd work 16 hours straight and he did that often. So, I mean, the one thing about him,

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apart from any problem he may have had was he was a great provider and he really did

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his best to take every possible opportunity to give money to the family and keep us going.

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So, you know, much appreciation for that.

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What about during the school age, sports and exercise? What were you doing at that age?

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Well, I always liked sports. My dad liked sports and he took us to games. He, you know,

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I always remember going, you know, to local stadiums and things and he liked the local

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teams. So, you know, he introduced us to it. He even would play, you know, take us to the

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local park and, you know, throw the ball and, you know, mostly baseball and allow us to

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hit and that was, you know, very, you know, I could tell he wanted us to kind of get into

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sports if we could. He didn't press us or anything, but he liked sports and so I wound

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up, you know, not playing for any organized teams or anything, but I would play with my

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buddies and the street guys and, you know, I like sports and I mostly settled into, believe

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it or not, liking ice hockey and I've been a Rangers season ticket holder for over 40

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years. So that wound up being the sport I got attracted to the most was ice hockey,

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even though I can't ice skate and I've never, you know, done so.

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Now why the Rangers? Because isn't there a New Jersey team? Is it the Red Devils?

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There's a good explanation for that. When I was growing up, there was no New Jersey Devils.

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Okay. There was only, you know, I think it was six teams when I was growing up and the

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only local team was the Rangers. There was no Islanders, there was no Devils. So my dad

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took us to Madison Square Garden and I became a Rangers fan. So when the Devils came to

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New Jersey, I think it was the early eighties, I didn't move from the Rangers. I stuck with

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the team that I rooted for already. So even till today, I continue to do that.

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Well then talk to me about your entry into the Port Authority, you know, and ultimately

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as an accountant. I mean, let's just start physically with working in one of the tallest

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structures on the planet.

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Yeah. You know, I've mentioned to people when I've done the walking tours or, you know,

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I speak to any of the volunteer opportunities is that I always remember my grandmother used

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to work in New York City and when they were building a World Trade Center, she took us

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over to various times to watch a little bit of the building. And then I came full circle

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because I wound up working in the building. Never, you know, like I said, I sent out,

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you know, maybe hundreds of resumes and I could have had a permanent job elsewhere,

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but whatever fate, I wound up accepting the permanent job in the World Trade Center. So

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I used to take a subway train that took me underneath the Hudson River. And then I would

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take two escalators and two elevators to get to my office on the 69th floor. I worked on

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the 69th floor, which is about two thirds of the way up. Most of my career, I worked

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on 69. My career in the World Trade Center spent a little time on 68, a little time on

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60, 63. But most of my career was on 69. And I used to joke with people. I used to take

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eight elevator rides a day. You know, you took like an, the way it worked was to get

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to 69, you had to take an express elevator that took you to the 44th floor. Then you

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changed there and you walked down the corridor and you got into a local elevator that took

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you from 44 to 69. So you took an express and a local just to get up to your office

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in the morning. So, you know, you took two to get in the morning, two down for lunch,

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two back after lunch, two down at the end of the day. So I took eight elevator rides

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a day. Not many people, you know, took that many elevator rides a day. And honestly, I

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always would say I felt privileged to be working in the World Trade Center. It honestly was,

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you know, when I first started working there, I think it was still the tallest building

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in the world. And maybe the Sears Tower was slightly taller. But, you know, here I was,

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you know, working in this great New York City in, if not the most famous, one of the famous

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buildings in the world. So I felt privileged to be doing that.

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What do you remember just simply as far as the view being that high up? Because obviously,

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when you're a pedestrian, which most of us are in New York, everything is towering above

227
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us, but it must be the reverse looking down a lot of the city.

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See, the thing about working in a World Trade Center is when you're a newbie or a rookie,

229
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your workstation, your desk is typically in the middle of the floor. You don't have a

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window seat. But ultimately, I got promotions and I moved closer and closer to the window.

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And ultimately, I got a window seat. So window seat meant that I could literally stand up

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and be right at the window, look down and I could see nearly 70 flights down on a clear

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day. I could see all the way to watch on mountains. So I had what very few people had in their

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workplace. You know, everybody has a workplace, but I had the World Trade Center. So again,

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I'm forever thankful for that.

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When I think of an express elevator that tall, immediately in my mind, I was never on a special

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operations team, but I did the training for it. How complex that must be if there's an

238
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elevator issue because it's not, you know, there's multiple floors that are skipped.

239
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So do you remember any elevator rescues when you were there?

240
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I remember a couple of times when I was with other people, it held about, I think, 30 to

241
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40 people and it was one stop. You know, they were, see the way the World Trade Center worked

242
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is if you worked higher than 44, you took an express, which is a one stop elevator to

243
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44. And then you got off and you transferred. If you worked, let's say on floor 100, you

244
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took an express from one to 78. So there were two types of expresses. And so the 44 express,

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I remember a couple of times when it stopped short of, let's say, landing at the first

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floor when it was coming down, but through whatever means they were able to resolve the

247
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problem. Myself personally, I only got what I consider stuck one time in the over 20 years

248
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I worked there. And it was odd because the one time I got stuck was when I went in on

249
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a Sunday alone just to do some work at my desk and go home. And I was in the express

250
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elevator alone. So, you know, but they had a call button, you press the call button,

251
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they stay in communication. And ultimately they got me down, they pried the doors open

252
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and I got out. So, you know, all's well that ends well.

253
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Murphy's law though, huh? The one time you get stuck.

254
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Yeah. What can you do? They were very reliable. And, you know, they maintained them, you know,

255
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at times some of the express elevators were out of service, but that was okay because

256
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they had multiple express elevators. So you weren't really without the elevators for any

257
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long period of time. Well, talk to me about the Port Authority in

258
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general, like what they oversee. Because I had Will Jimeno on a while ago. He was one

259
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of the Port Authority police officers that was trapped and ultimately rescued. An absolute

260
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miraculous story. But give us an overview of the company itself.

261
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:47,820
Sure. Will is a police officer and I'm just a standard employee. So the Port Authority

262
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employs both police and regular employees. It's a local agency that was started in 1921

263
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and it basically maintained, it's for the public good and it maintains the local airports,

264
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the tunnels and bridges, many of the tunnels and bridges and is there to serve the public

265
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community of the New York, New Jersey area. At its height, when I first started working

266
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there, we employed 10,000 or more people. Then they had a decrease in staff in, I believe,

267
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the early 80s and the staff was brought down to about a 6,000 level. And I think it's been

268
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pretty well maintained at about 6 or 6,500 or so employees. But believe it or not, the

269
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Port Authority built the World Trade Center. They owned the land and they built it. And

270
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then you may have heard the story, six months before the 9-11-01 attack, they completed

271
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a deal with Silverstein Realty to net lease the World Trade Center to Silverstein. So

272
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although the Port Authority remained the owner of the property, Silverstein was involved

273
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in managing the property. But the Port Authority kind of branched out into real estate and

274
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industrial parks and things. But really, at their core, they are a transportation agency

275
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locally. JFK Airport, Luwadi Airport, Newark Airport, the tunnels GW, I mean, Holland Tunnel,

276
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Lincoln Tunnel, GWB, those are what we call our facilities. We also have port facilities

277
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in Port Elizabeth and Port Newark. So we're kind of wide ranging as an agency.

278
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Will Barron Beautiful. I didn't hear that before about

279
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them actually building the tower as well. That's new information. So thank you for sharing

280
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that. JFK Yep. Yeah, they built it. And the thing is, the agency, we're what's called

281
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self, I forget the word for it, we self provide so that we gain revenues by the tunnel and

282
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bridge fees and the landing fees of airliners into our airports. So we don't rely on any

283
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kind of public funding. Our authority is the governors of New York and New Jersey, who

284
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set up a board of commissioners of 12 commissioners. And that's how the court authority is run.

285
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Will Barron When you said that there was a cut in staffing

286
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in the 80s, when you look back, and obviously, you've got a very analytical position, was

287
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that a good leaning of the company? Or, you know, was it something where maybe some of

288
00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:59,140
those staffing, you know, the numbers should have been put back?

289
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JFK I would say it's it from an employee standpoint,

290
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it wasn't it wasn't good. And it wasn't nice. And I remember, specifically, two of the employees

291
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we had in our in our division. Both were over 70. And the port authority was their career,

292
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and it was their current life. And they were two of the people who got terminated from

293
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the company. And at hurt, you know, I had to go to one of them, because I was, I believe,

294
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a supervisor at the time, and I had to explain to the person to pack up their belongings

295
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and leave for the day. And, you know, she was heartbroken. I mean, she she just she

296
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she was in shock. And she basically didn't want to leave. So it's tough on employees.

297
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I mean, I understood from the from the employer standpoint, that the greatest expense that

298
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a company has is the salary and the benefit expense. So the easiest and most bang for

299
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the buck you get is when you cut the expense of labor. So I kind of understood it is also

300
00:26:20,060 --> 00:26:26,140
a certain amount of public pressure in that the port authority, because it's a governmental

301
00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:31,820
quasi governmental agency, the public tends to weigh in and, you know, give comments,

302
00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:36,340
you know, you got too many employees or this or that. So I think they tend to listen to

303
00:26:36,340 --> 00:26:40,540
that too, which, you know, can really alter decision making.

304
00:26:40,540 --> 00:26:47,140
Absolutely, because we're in a recruitment crisis in fire and police at the moment. And

305
00:26:47,140 --> 00:26:52,660
I think people are starting to realize that if you invest in that workforce that you have,

306
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:56,260
it'll actually cost you less money if you take care of them and they don't get sick

307
00:26:56,260 --> 00:27:00,300
and they don't take, you know, sick time all the time and all these things. So, you know,

308
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:04,380
that just slice and dice mentality. If you look at the progressive corporations of these

309
00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:09,740
days, Google, Virgin, they're, you know, shorter work weeks, and they're investing in people

310
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and they're trusting them to get work done in however many hours it takes and very, very

311
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:17,340
different model than a few years ago.

312
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:26,700
Yeah, I think they've come to understand that that's important. So whereas early in my middle

313
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:31,060
of my career, things weren't that way towards the end of the career, my career, the port

314
00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:36,180
authority followed suit and they invested more in their employees, both from a training

315
00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:43,860
aspect and a life, you know, aspect, a family aspect. So, you know, they were in line with

316
00:27:43,860 --> 00:27:49,660
the general consensus of the way to treat employees near the end of my career.

317
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:57,660
Well, let's go to February 26th, 1993. That's obviously an event that is sadly overshadowed

318
00:27:57,660 --> 00:28:01,460
by the 01 event. But talk to me about your experience that day.

319
00:28:01,460 --> 00:28:12,140
Okay, so that was a, what I call a smoke event, but a deadly one. I mean, basically, as the

320
00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:20,980
story goes, the terrorist's plan was to, with this truck bomb, topple the North Tower into

321
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the South Tower, effectively knock over both towers. They failed. I was at work that day,

322
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as I usually was. I remember it being a Friday afternoon, slightly after noontime, it was

323
00:28:35,140 --> 00:28:43,420
1218 when the bomb went off. It was a very cold day, so typically and cloudy and looked

324
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like it was going to snow. So, whereas maybe a different time of year, a lot of people

325
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would head out for lunch and leave the building, everybody stayed in the building, which made

326
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matters worse because when the bomb went off, I remember I was in my boss's office and we

327
00:29:01,580 --> 00:29:07,380
were talking about a financial matter and the bomb goes off, the building shakes, the

328
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lights go off immediately, and within five minutes, smoke had reached our floor on 69.

329
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So we knew it was something serious because that's not the kind of thing that happens

330
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on an everyday basis. I mean, we used to endure different things like towers had a sway factor,

331
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and on very windy days, the tower would sway and you'd have to hear a creaking sound. You

332
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:39,060
have to get used to it because it's not like you could pick up and leave for the day. But

333
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:45,020
this was different. The building shook, the lights were out. We knew something was wrong.

334
00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:52,540
I remember going to the staircase and the staircase was loaded. There was many people

335
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above us, many people below. We were basically going very slowly down the staircase. There

336
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:08,500
was a lot of heat, a lot of smoke, no lights in the staircase and no announcements. At

337
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certain points, we were stopped in the staircase, just standing on the stairs, inhaling smoke.

338
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At one point, I remember a woman behind me starting to cry and asking me what's going

339
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:28,860
to happen to us. I really didn't know what to say to her except to ask her to just try

340
00:30:28,860 --> 00:30:35,260
to stay calm. We'll get through it. And she did. She calmed down. Ultimately, we didn't

341
00:30:35,260 --> 00:30:42,380
get too far down in the staircase I was in. At least I only got to the 47th floor from

342
00:30:42,380 --> 00:30:50,140
69, and it kind of herded everybody onto the floor. I always say 1993 is not like 2024.

343
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There's no iPhones. There's no instant ways to find out things. In fact, I remember when

344
00:30:55,020 --> 00:31:00,860
we were all herded on that floor, the chairs were all taken, so we were sitting on the

345
00:31:00,860 --> 00:31:06,980
rug. I remember seeing at a distance a couple of the executives breaking through the window

346
00:31:06,980 --> 00:31:11,980
and sticking out what looked like an antenna or something where they were trying to get

347
00:31:11,980 --> 00:31:19,700
some kind of communication going. But needless to say, we spent many hours on that floor

348
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:24,140
until finally the firefighters came up. They had cleared the staircase and then were allowed

349
00:31:24,140 --> 00:31:34,020
to go down. I remember exiting the staircase. I remember exiting to the street. It was after

350
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:39,420
6 p.m. that day, and considering that the bomb went off at 12.18, it was a long time

351
00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:42,020
that we had in terms of evacuation.

352
00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:48,380
Well, firstly, it was a subterranean parking where the van was under. So for that to then

353
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:55,380
reach you on the 69th floor and beyond, that shows you the power of the bomb.

354
00:31:55,380 --> 00:32:02,620
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people know the World Trade Center as 110 stories tall, but also

355
00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:07,980
when seven stories below the ground. It was basically all a parking garage, a public parking

356
00:32:07,980 --> 00:32:15,060
garage with, in those days, zero security. So the terrorists took advantage of that.

357
00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:20,860
They had driven their van into the parking garage, left the van, had a timer and a detonator,

358
00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:23,540
and they detonated their bomb.

359
00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:29,420
When they kind of evaluated later, what had happened to prevent that collapse, prevent

360
00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:32,540
something much more catastrophic happening?

361
00:32:32,540 --> 00:32:39,900
I think it was just such a powerful structure. It's almost the same thing that occurred in

362
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:51,660
2001 was, I think the terrorists underestimated the strength of the steel and the power that

363
00:32:51,660 --> 00:33:04,100
that steel had. The Twin Towers were anchored 70 feet below ground into New York City bedrock.

364
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:10,360
So their base was these powerful tridents, steel tridents that came from 70 feet below

365
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:16,700
the ground. So the anchor and the base was very, very strong. Same when the plane hit

366
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:21,980
it. I think in 2001, they wanted to topple the towers down, but the towers withstood

367
00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:26,740
it. So I think it's just the power of the strength of the steel.

368
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:30,860
And what about the outcome of that first bombing? How many, how many of you were killed in the

369
00:33:30,860 --> 00:33:31,860
end?

370
00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:37,260
I know that there were hundreds that were hurt and unfortunately seven people died,

371
00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:45,140
six people and an unborn child. In fact, the woman and another employee were employees

372
00:33:45,140 --> 00:33:49,980
of the Port Authority who I worked for. So, you know, we did lose a couple of people in

373
00:33:49,980 --> 00:33:51,780
93 also.

374
00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:57,780
So sad. What about, as you mentioned, no security prior to that? What did you start seeing as

375
00:33:57,780 --> 00:34:01,020
far as security changes post?

376
00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:08,140
Security time changes. I mean, you know, I've often said that really what occurred after

377
00:34:08,140 --> 00:34:18,580
1993 was very significant, significantly changed, you know, World Trade Center access. I mean,

378
00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:25,060
you know, there were jokes about in the early days of World Trade Center, just regular visitors

379
00:34:25,060 --> 00:34:30,940
would come to the towers and ride the elevators for fun because they were able to. But after

380
00:34:30,940 --> 00:34:37,340
the 93 bombing, they put in total security. You could not. It was a security guard at

381
00:34:37,340 --> 00:34:43,460
each of the elevators and you could not get in without displaying your ID card. You could

382
00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:49,500
not get in as a visitor unless you were going to a meeting and had a World Trade Center

383
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:58,500
access card. So security wise, they went 100 percent in terms of securing the building

384
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:06,020
and they put other changes in. They put better lighting, communication in the staircases

385
00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:15,460
and they also increased the number of fire drills we had. And the most significant thing

386
00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:24,820
that they did was as far as what's relative to me and my group of buddies was they brought

387
00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:31,060
in these things called evacue chairs, which saved my friend John's life.

388
00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:35,540
What about the drills themselves? What do they look like? Because I can imagine being

389
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:38,380
an office worker, you know, when we were at school and we're little, you know, you do

390
00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:41,580
a drill, but you're a child and you can't wait to get out of math because it's really

391
00:35:41,580 --> 00:35:48,300
boring anyway. You know, but if you're 110 stories up, how are they able to orchestrate

392
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:49,300
that?

393
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:55,140
Well, they only did them floor by floor. So it wasn't like they did an entire building

394
00:35:55,140 --> 00:36:02,580
fire drill. You would only have a drill for your floor. And early on they would announce

395
00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:07,980
and preview you so you knew when that drill would happen. And then eventually I think

396
00:36:07,980 --> 00:36:12,660
they did them unannounced. But basically you didn't have to leave the floor. What they

397
00:36:12,660 --> 00:36:19,940
did was they ran the siren. You would go out of your office and into the middle of the

398
00:36:19,940 --> 00:36:30,180
floor. And everyone would have to be quiet standing against the walls. And then a fire

399
00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:38,340
drill instructor would come in and give you the instructions, which were that when a fire

400
00:36:38,340 --> 00:36:44,520
emerge or any emergency happens and the sirens go off, you are to avoid the elevators, go

401
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:51,460
to the staircase, go down three flights and then go onto that floor. So in our case would

402
00:36:51,460 --> 00:37:00,800
be, you know, we would go down to the 66th floor and remain there to await further instructions.

403
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,420
Of course, what occurred in 93 and 2001, we didn't go to that third floor. We just kept

404
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:14,940
going down the staircase. But it was organized and it was informational. And, you know, as

405
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:19,700
it turns out, as an employee, you welcomed it because you realized it was important after

406
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:20,700
1993.

407
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:25,480
Well, it's interesting as well because some of the criticisms of, you know, the response

408
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,700
initially was the sheltering in place. But if that's what you were training to do, because

409
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:35,420
never had anyone thought an entire building would come down, then it makes sense.

410
00:37:35,420 --> 00:37:42,660
Yeah, I think that was in fact, there were employees from my own company that in 2001

411
00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:47,460
locked themselves into a conference room and were going to wait it out. See, the thing,

412
00:37:47,460 --> 00:37:55,300
I think some people were in 2001 were comparing it to 1993. In 1993, you had all the time

413
00:37:55,300 --> 00:38:01,220
in the world. Whereas in 2001, literally you were working against the clock of the steel

414
00:38:01,220 --> 00:38:05,980
that was melting and as it turned out, couldn't hold up the upper floors. But nobody knew

415
00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:13,380
any of that. Everybody was just kind of operating on their best choice and decision.

416
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:19,500
Well, before we get to 2001, were there any other incidents at all and anything of significance

417
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:24,620
that happened between 93 and when we get to 2001?

418
00:38:24,620 --> 00:38:32,620
I don't remember any in particular. I think there was one day I wasn't in where there

419
00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:38,620
was some kind of electrical issue and they had to, you know, so like a power outage and

420
00:38:38,620 --> 00:38:43,820
they had to empty the building and they sent everybody home and they came back the next

421
00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:53,460
day the power issue was resolved. But typically, you know, none come to mind in terms of either

422
00:38:53,460 --> 00:39:03,540
any kind of emergencies due to violence or any other technical issue. Things were pretty

423
00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:04,540
stable.

424
00:39:04,540 --> 00:39:11,220
Well, let's talk about September 11, 2001 then walk me through, you know, waking up

425
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:14,140
and then and then how that day unfolded for you.

426
00:39:14,140 --> 00:39:22,260
Sure. Well, when I woke up, it was really, you know, such a beautiful morning. I mean,

427
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:27,460
I remember the night before I went to visit my sister and it was rainy and it was, you

428
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:34,700
know, not a good evening. But by the following morning, all that rain had cleared out. It

429
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:41,020
was perfectly sunny. It was a Tuesday morning, just kind of another day of work. But, you

430
00:39:41,020 --> 00:39:44,580
know, you're a little bit refreshed because it was early September. It was a little bit

431
00:39:44,580 --> 00:39:50,820
cool. You didn't feel that bad about going to work. I remember I traveled my normal way

432
00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:59,180
to get to work. I'm a worker who used to arrive early. So I was at my desk by 8.15 that morning.

433
00:39:59,180 --> 00:40:04,500
I had described to you how I took the subway that took me under the towers to escalators

434
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:11,100
to elevators. And when you get out of the elevators on the 69th floor, there's like

435
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:16,660
four doors, east, west, north and south. I went through the west door and went over to

436
00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:22,700
my desk. And it was another day. It was early. I remember not anybody was really in yet.

437
00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:30,280
So I started my work day. I'm writing something at my desk. And then a half hour later was

438
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,820
when the plane hit and the plane hit from behind me. So the thing about it was I didn't

439
00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:41,060
see the plane approach the building. So one minute I'm writing something at my desk and

440
00:40:41,060 --> 00:40:50,380
the next minute it powerfully hit 22 floors above me and knocked me onto my desk. And

441
00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:56,160
then the next one to two minutes were really the longest in my life because although the

442
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:02,220
terrorists when they gunned it and flew the plane, they say four to five hundred miles

443
00:41:02,220 --> 00:41:07,860
an hour into the tower, I guess they're expecting to knock over the tower. But the tower held

444
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:17,540
strong. But the rebound effect was that the tower took the hit, but it started to violently

445
00:41:17,540 --> 00:41:23,260
move back and forth. You know, I described for you earlier the windy days. It had a shift,

446
00:41:23,260 --> 00:41:29,100
but nothing like this. This was, you know, I was hearing that sound of crunching steel

447
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:36,780
of the tower moving back and forth. And then I remember lifting myself up off my desk and

448
00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:43,180
standing up. And I noticed that the floor was not stable. It was what I described as

449
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:49,500
rolling. It was moving from side to side. And I remember kind of being in shock and

450
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:57,140
looking across the floor and I saw one person and I looked in her eyes and she was in shock

451
00:41:57,140 --> 00:42:03,740
too. But nobody else else was in yet because it was eight forty six. So I kind of felt

452
00:42:03,740 --> 00:42:10,500
a little bit alone. I remember saying to myself, whispering, is this where it all ends for

453
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:16,860
me? Is this where I die? Because, you know, I didn't expect that that movement and the

454
00:42:16,860 --> 00:42:21,300
floor rolling would stop. But it did. About a minute and a half later, it stopped. And

455
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:26,820
then someone ran down and said we needed to evacuate. Another person came down and said

456
00:42:26,820 --> 00:42:32,260
that they were actually facing a window where the plane was approaching and they were expecting

457
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:37,980
the plane to climb and to go higher. But it never did. That was the first time I knew

458
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:43,500
it was a plane that hit the building, because again, it hit from behind me. So at that point,

459
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:50,100
what were the conditions like on your floor? Well, the thing about it was on my floor,

460
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:55,740
there was no fire, no smoke, nothing falling from the ceilings of the walls. It was just,

461
00:42:55,740 --> 00:43:00,700
you know, the crunching steel and the movement of the floor. But that all stopped. So conditions

462
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:09,020
were good. It was, you know, then time to evacuate. And the thing about the evacuation

463
00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:16,620
though was, you know, I thought of my friend John, because we had worked side by side workstations

464
00:43:16,620 --> 00:43:22,700
for a long, long time. And I knew that he came to work early, just like I did. The thing

465
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:27,260
though was about six months prior, he had transferred to the revenue division, which

466
00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:33,580
was across the floor, same floor, 69, but he was on the opposite side. But just knowing

467
00:43:33,580 --> 00:43:37,860
him, I knew he would be at work and I knew he would need help because the motorized wheelchair

468
00:43:37,860 --> 00:43:45,620
cannot get down the staircase. So I immediately, you know, ran off to get the evac chair. And

469
00:43:45,620 --> 00:43:51,620
as I'm in the hallway, who do I bump into? It's John. And I said, John, where's your

470
00:43:51,620 --> 00:43:56,860
chair? Where's your evac chair? But he was in shock. He just sort of pointed his arm

471
00:43:56,860 --> 00:44:01,700
and said, it's over there. So I went to where I thought it might be. And I shifted around,

472
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:09,180
I found it under some boxes. You know, we had practiced it once. And just so we could

473
00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:15,620
open it up and possibly get him into it. But he didn't want to get into it, which I understood.

474
00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:20,780
We would have had to lift him in, but at least we knew how to work it. So when I came back,

475
00:44:20,780 --> 00:44:26,180
this just wonderful thing happened. These 10 co-workers of mine hung around to help.

476
00:44:26,180 --> 00:44:31,340
And that was absolutely vital because there's no way I could have helped John alone. And

477
00:44:31,340 --> 00:44:39,300
having the help of my other co-worker buddies was really the thing that was the difference

478
00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:45,180
for us. We unstrapped John from his wheelchair, lifted him into the evac chair. We strapped

479
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:49,780
the bottom and top there. We had a quick plan, two guys at the bottom of the evac chair,

480
00:44:49,780 --> 00:44:56,660
two at the top. Rotate after every five floors, bottom goes to top, top rolls off and away

481
00:44:56,660 --> 00:45:03,380
we go. We stayed to the right because we were slower than other people who were making their

482
00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:09,260
way down the stairs. The staircase was wide enough so a lot of people could pass down

483
00:45:09,260 --> 00:45:15,240
it. But you know, the way the evac chair worked was you basically slid it down the stairs

484
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:20,940
and you held it and controlled it so it didn't topple over or whatever. So we controlled

485
00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:26,500
it, got it to the landing, you move to the next landing and down you go, sliding it.

486
00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:32,500
So you just kept sliding, holding, moving and you just kept doing that down each staircase.

487
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:37,380
We were slower so people were passing by us, but that was fine. The great thing was the

488
00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:42,960
staircase was so much better than in 1993. It was so early in the morning that hardly

489
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:48,060
anybody was at work so we were moving well down the staircase.

490
00:45:48,060 --> 00:45:53,700
What were you having as far as communication? Were you hearing evacuate? You talked about

491
00:45:53,700 --> 00:45:56,980
the updated lights and speakers in there now.

492
00:45:56,980 --> 00:46:04,160
Yeah, honestly I don't remember any communication within the staircase. The lights were on which

493
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:11,140
was wonderful. The whole way down we had lights so we didn't have to worry about tripping

494
00:46:11,140 --> 00:46:18,220
or any dangerous things in that regard. But as far as announcements go, there were no

495
00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:28,120
announcements. I heard the story of what happened in the South Tower where they made an announcement

496
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,980
that maybe they regretted because they informed the South Tower of what was happening in the

497
00:46:32,980 --> 00:46:40,420
North Tower and some of the South Tower people took it incorrectly. So maybe they just, or

498
00:46:40,420 --> 00:46:45,740
maybe they were evacuating themselves and they were away from making any announcements.

499
00:46:45,740 --> 00:46:51,340
I don't know what the story was, but I don't remember hearing any announcements. Any information

500
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:57,300
we ever got was when we got lower and we are encountering the firefighters and they had

501
00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:04,180
radios and they had information through their radio system.

502
00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:08,660
Now obviously there's that iconic yet tragic picture of the firefighter ascending when

503
00:47:08,660 --> 00:47:13,220
everyone else is descending and that you can see the kind of fear in his eyes and which

504
00:47:13,220 --> 00:47:18,220
shows how courageous it was. What do you remember as far as the interaction with the firefighters

505
00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:19,940
that you saw climbing?

506
00:47:19,940 --> 00:47:27,940
Two or three things in particular. We began encountering them in the floors of the 30s.

507
00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:35,460
And I always say I gained a much greater appreciation of what firefighters do because they had close

508
00:47:35,460 --> 00:47:40,660
to 80 pounds of equipment, big iron picks, helmets, air packs, and they were walking

509
00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:46,340
up. I mean, you walk up without 80 pounds of equipment, any kind of staircase, it's

510
00:47:46,340 --> 00:47:51,140
not a particularly easy thing to do, but they were walking up and they weren't going up

511
00:47:51,140 --> 00:47:55,540
there to rescue like their family or friends. They were going to rescue people like me that

512
00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:58,380
they didn't even know.

513
00:47:58,380 --> 00:48:06,140
All of other observations is in one instance as they were going up, I kind of in a very

514
00:48:06,140 --> 00:48:14,700
stupid moment asked one of them, is the building stable? And it was when I thought later it

515
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:21,020
was kind of a stupid thing to ask because they're going up into danger zone. I'm going

516
00:48:21,020 --> 00:48:26,300
down and I'm asking them if there's a problem. But you know, your mind just isn't the same

517
00:48:26,300 --> 00:48:31,980
when you're in kind of that emergency situation. But the one thing that drove home how heroic,

518
00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:36,940
I mean, some of them were slumped against the side of the staircase, just sitting against

519
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:42,220
the wall, breathing real heavy, just catching their breath and then picking themselves up

520
00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:49,980
and moving further up. So, you know, to me, it just they were undaunted. And, you know,

521
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:56,180
I give them all the credit in the world for, you know, they say 343 New York City firefighters

522
00:48:56,180 --> 00:49:04,740
died, scores of other volunteer firefighters died. So, you know, for them and World Trade

523
00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:09,420
Operations people who are guiding them all the credit in the world for what they tried

524
00:49:09,420 --> 00:49:10,420
to do.

525
00:49:10,420 --> 00:49:14,660
Absolutely. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Yeah, that that three, four, three, obviously

526
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:19,420
is a very powerful yet tragic number in our profession, even to this day.

527
00:49:19,420 --> 00:49:24,980
Yeah, I mean, I thought later of the fact that they were embarking on something that

528
00:49:24,980 --> 00:49:33,540
probably wasn't ever attempted before in firefighter history, going to the top of the tallest building

529
00:49:33,540 --> 00:49:40,660
in the world and trying to either to put out a fire and rescue people. It's just, you know,

530
00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:41,660
mind boggling.

531
00:49:41,660 --> 00:49:44,900
Yeah. And even just look at the magnitude of the flames, you know, what we're able to

532
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:50,220
do with the limited tools that you would take up to a high rise fire. I mean, you hook it

533
00:49:50,220 --> 00:49:53,980
up to a standpipe. I'm sure a lot of them were thinking this. I don't think we're going

534
00:49:53,980 --> 00:49:57,660
to be able to even make a dent in this. So, you know, I mean, the fact that they went

535
00:49:57,660 --> 00:50:02,580
up there purely for the rescue side, knowing as far as extinguishment, it probably wasn't

536
00:50:02,580 --> 00:50:05,860
going to happen. I think adds to the to the courage.

537
00:50:05,860 --> 00:50:12,260
Yeah. And and there were audio accounts that some reached the 78th floor, which is absolutely

538
00:50:12,260 --> 00:50:13,260
amazing.

539
00:50:13,260 --> 00:50:18,060
100 percent. Well, speaking of floors, talk to me again about the fatigue and where where

540
00:50:18,060 --> 00:50:22,460
were you finally able to get out? Which floor did you exit on?

541
00:50:22,460 --> 00:50:30,020
Well, we we were moving fairly well doing our rotations on the evac chair. And when we

542
00:50:30,020 --> 00:50:35,620
got into the floors of the 40s, though, it got hotter in the staircase we were in. But

543
00:50:35,620 --> 00:50:41,340
we were all veterans of the building. We knew there were three other staircases and we took

544
00:50:41,340 --> 00:50:47,580
a guess that if we went into one of the other staircases, it might be cooler. And as it

545
00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:52,140
turned out, when we did switch at the 44th floor into the other staircase, the other

546
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:57,300
staircase was cooler. And that helped us because we were sweating a lot and we were really

547
00:50:57,300 --> 00:51:05,580
beginning to struggle some. So getting into that cooler staircase was good for us. As

548
00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:11,300
we were going down that staircase, I had mentioned we got into the floors of the 30s and actually

549
00:51:11,300 --> 00:51:18,220
that's when as we were going down, the firefighters were moving up. They would pass us occasionally,

550
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:24,740
but constantly going up same staircase. I understand now in the new One World Trade

551
00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:33,020
Center, they have a dedicated staircase for first responders. So not I mean, I'm sure

552
00:51:33,020 --> 00:51:40,300
it makes it easier for them. We had a comfort level of of, you know, knowing that they were

553
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:46,740
in our staircase, but I'm sure it helps them to have a dedicated staircase. We went further

554
00:51:46,740 --> 00:51:52,940
down and when we reached the 21st floor, we were we're doing okay. We were going to, you

555
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:59,740
know, carry it out and go all the way down. But at the 21st floor, they stopped us and

556
00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:04,940
they asked us to go onto the floor. It was a police command center floor. And the reason

557
00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:10,420
that they told us was that they were moving equipment up in the staircase we were in.

558
00:52:10,420 --> 00:52:15,340
And since we were kind of wide, we would be blocking that equipment. So when we just go

559
00:52:15,340 --> 00:52:20,860
on the floor for a short time, when the equipment cleared, then we could get back in the staircase.

560
00:52:20,860 --> 00:52:26,140
We said, okay, we they asked if we wanted to leave John with them. There were other

561
00:52:26,140 --> 00:52:32,420
handicapped people on that police command center floor. We said, no, you know, once we

562
00:52:32,420 --> 00:52:38,060
got back in the staircase would take John the rest of the way down. We were on the 21st

563
00:52:38,060 --> 00:52:43,580
floor, I would say less than five minutes when the building violently shook again. And

564
00:52:43,580 --> 00:52:47,660
I wasn't near a window and I didn't see it. But later on, I found out that that was the

565
00:52:47,660 --> 00:52:53,780
south tower collapsing down. Shortly after that, we're allowed to reenter the staircase

566
00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:59,060
to go the rest of the way down. And as we were going down, I remember the only panicking

567
00:52:59,060 --> 00:53:04,900
moment we had in the staircases. And that was when we reached the 10th floor and everything

568
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:12,180
stopped in the staircase. Some of my co-worker buddies had heard on the firefighters and

569
00:53:12,180 --> 00:53:17,740
ops people's radio that tower two was down. So they I didn't hear it. I was kind of tuned

570
00:53:17,740 --> 00:53:22,940
out of that. But they heard it. And they started to shout that we got to get moving. We got

571
00:53:22,940 --> 00:53:30,660
to get moving because I believe that they thought, you know, our tower would be next.

572
00:53:30,660 --> 00:53:35,900
So we were only stalled a short time and then we did begin to get moving. And I don't know

573
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:41,300
what the holdup was, but we were moving and we continue to move down the rest of the way.

574
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:47,200
I remember us getting into the lower floors where there was a lot of more water and debris

575
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:54,620
in the staircase. We got to the lobby. I remember broken windows in the lobby. We went through

576
00:53:54,620 --> 00:54:01,220
the door and we made it to the street. The one thing that shocked me when we got to the

577
00:54:01,220 --> 00:54:08,620
street was there was nobody out there. I remember 1993 when there was a lot of fire trucks,

578
00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:14,380
ambulances, police cars, people running around. And I didn't know why nobody would be out

579
00:54:14,380 --> 00:54:20,100
there. I didn't know the other tower was down. We were walking. We were carrying John at

580
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:25,300
that point north to on the street called West Street. We got to our first corner. We met

581
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:32,140
our first person. He said, you know, try to hustle northward. So we did. We kept going

582
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:37,660
north on West Street. We would glance back at our tower and there was a lot of smoke

583
00:54:37,660 --> 00:54:44,300
and haze and what we thought was debris coming down. We went further north on West Street.

584
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:49,100
We would look up and then we realized it wasn't debris coming down. It was people jumping

585
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:54,900
from the top of the tower. And, you know, that was a real difficult moment, I think,

586
00:54:54,900 --> 00:55:02,900
for all of us because, you know, we many of the people who were coming down and jumping

587
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:12,820
were kind of just like us. They were workers. And, you know, to think that they were trapped

588
00:55:12,820 --> 00:55:20,020
and they had to end their life that way was really hurtful because, you know, successful

589
00:55:20,020 --> 00:55:26,140
evacuation kind of was a time and place thing. If you were above the impact line of the plane

590
00:55:26,140 --> 00:55:31,340
or below the impact line of the plane like we were, we were below the plane's impact.

591
00:55:31,340 --> 00:55:36,260
You typically had a clear staircase and as long as time was on your side, you made it

592
00:55:36,260 --> 00:55:43,860
out. But for them, they were above the impact line of the plane. The plane literally, although

593
00:55:43,860 --> 00:55:50,460
it didn't topple the tower, it flew through the tower. So it wiped out all the four staircases

594
00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:57,180
with either a big fire, too much smoke, maybe a steel beam. So they were trapped. And, you

595
00:55:57,180 --> 00:56:03,340
know, to literally either burn from behind or come down with the tower or jump from the

596
00:56:03,340 --> 00:56:09,700
tower. I mean, it's why, you know, when I see terrorism or violence in a lot of ways,

597
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:16,220
it really hurts and hits home because so many innocent people did not have to die that way.

598
00:56:16,220 --> 00:56:22,220
100%. I mean, there was that documentary, I think it was called The Falling Man. I think

599
00:56:22,220 --> 00:56:27,100
they discovered that it was probably the chef from one of the restaurants at the top. But,

600
00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:32,780
yeah, I mean, that's just one, a single one. But I've had so many people on here that,

601
00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:37,420
yeah, most of them were first responders on the outside. And that is the one thing that

602
00:56:37,420 --> 00:56:41,140
really, really haunts them was the thumping of the bodies.

603
00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:47,820
Yeah. Sad story. Our executive director from the Port Authority was in Windows on the World

604
00:56:47,820 --> 00:56:52,660
restaurant that morning for a business meeting. From what I understand, it was the first time

605
00:56:52,660 --> 00:56:57,380
he was ever in Windows on the World. He was the top executive on our company and he died

606
00:56:57,380 --> 00:57:04,500
there. We lost 78 people, but he was the top executive in the Port Authority. And it just

607
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:12,220
goes to show how, you know, time and place, you know, it almost is part of what I went

608
00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:18,180
through early on in terms of, you know, we came out at 10.15 and the tower came down

609
00:57:18,180 --> 00:57:22,580
at 10.28. And, you know, so many different kinds of thoughts go through your mind when

610
00:57:22,580 --> 00:57:32,900
that happens, you know, post event. And, you know, it's part of what I dealt with.

611
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:36,940
When you were heading north before the North Tower fell, did you know that the South Tower

612
00:57:36,940 --> 00:57:42,940
had fallen and were you still kind of blocked by the North Tower at that point?

613
00:57:42,940 --> 00:57:50,340
I knew it only because I learned from my buddies that, you know, the other tower was already

614
00:57:50,340 --> 00:57:56,020
down at that point. So, you know, although I didn't hear it on the radios, I heard it

615
00:57:56,020 --> 00:58:02,500
from them. So I then understood why the urgency.

616
00:58:02,500 --> 00:58:06,820
But at that point, when you exited, the streets didn't look like the images that we saw covered

617
00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:09,140
in certain ash.

618
00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:17,620
You know what it is? There was that, but somehow I was tuned out from it. I mean, I knew at

619
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:24,420
that point, you know, the other tower was down. But it's like, you know, certain things

620
00:58:24,420 --> 00:58:29,580
were just so shocking that day. And I can only describe it as when you're in an emergency

621
00:58:29,580 --> 00:58:36,820
situation, your mind is just not the same. And, you know, what can I say except that,

622
00:58:36,820 --> 00:58:42,980
you know, I did kind of notice it, but it wasn't really hitting home for me.

623
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:47,900
And how far away had you got before the tower actually fell behind you?

624
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:54,460
We were about four or five blocks away when the ground started to rumble. And you look

625
00:58:54,460 --> 00:59:02,020
up and the giant cloud is coming at you. It's like as high as you can see, and it's all

626
00:59:02,020 --> 00:59:07,740
wide. And your human instinct is just get out of its way. So we grabbed John, we got

627
00:59:07,740 --> 00:59:14,100
into the school, Stuyvesant school, and we closed the door behind us. And then I remember

628
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:18,700
looking through the glass window of the door, it got like gray and very gray and pitch black.

629
00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:24,700
And that was our tower that we had all worked in that was coming down at that point. So

630
00:59:24,700 --> 00:59:31,220
we were a good enough distance away and fortunately ducked into the school, which helped us out

631
00:59:31,220 --> 00:59:32,220
a whole lot.

632
00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:36,820
I saw a video recently, I don't know why it pops up. Is this some of the history websites

633
00:59:36,820 --> 00:59:41,220
that I follow or pages on social media? And it was just that it was a woman that was out

634
00:59:41,220 --> 00:59:46,100
on the street. And I think it was like a Greek deli or something like that. And they basically

635
00:59:46,100 --> 00:59:50,380
grabbed her, pulled her in, told everyone to get away from the windows. And that was

636
00:59:50,380 --> 00:59:54,540
seconds before the cloud went past. I think the windows maybe broke, I forget now, but

637
00:59:54,540 --> 00:59:58,460
they saved their life just by pulling in.

638
00:59:58,460 --> 01:00:06,260
I want to kind of segue to that. One of the things that I think is so powerful about the

639
01:00:06,260 --> 01:00:13,220
tragedy of 9-11, and this could be later in the day or 9-12 as people refer to, but the

640
01:00:13,220 --> 01:00:20,820
community, the heroism, the selflessness, as this kind of day unfolded, what were the

641
01:00:20,820 --> 01:00:25,220
stories or the moments that you remember of the New Yorkers coming together, regardless

642
01:00:25,220 --> 01:00:29,540
of race, color, creed, religion, etc.?

643
01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:38,220
Well, I heard this one number when I was volunteering at the Tribute Museum that over half a million

644
01:00:38,220 --> 01:00:45,740
people ultimately came to New York City to help. Half a million people is a lot of people.

645
01:00:45,740 --> 01:00:53,900
And they brought with them, some of them brought truckloads of food, drink, and materials.

646
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:58,020
Others just brought themselves because they were electricians or they were welders or

647
01:00:58,020 --> 01:01:06,140
they were, so they had skills. Other people were maybe Red Cross or Salvation Army people

648
01:01:06,140 --> 01:01:15,380
or sanitation people or first responders, and they all came. And these were in the days

649
01:01:15,380 --> 01:01:23,980
following. The day of 9-11, I went to the hospital with John because he needed to be

650
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:30,700
checked out. And so I spent the rest of 9-11 in a hospital with him. So we were kind of

651
01:01:30,700 --> 01:01:38,800
in a hospital room without much of anything. So we were kind of, again, insulated from

652
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:44,400
everything that was immediately happening there. But ultimately, so many people came

653
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:50,060
to help. And maybe they stayed a week or they stayed a month and then they eventually left.

654
01:01:50,060 --> 01:01:57,860
But it was a 24-7 operation. They ultimately put up lights and they were eventually brought

655
01:01:57,860 --> 01:02:03,820
in trucks and they were lifting materials and they were working day and night to try

656
01:02:03,820 --> 01:02:16,620
to find bodies. They knew after 24 hours that rescue had turned into recovery. But still,

657
01:02:16,620 --> 01:02:22,740
Americans worked those shifts and went into that pile. And you know the story about how

658
01:02:22,740 --> 01:02:28,380
many got sick and are still sick from illnesses that they got by going into that pile.

659
01:02:28,380 --> 01:02:33,020
Yeah. I think it surpassed the number of, at least FDNY, the number has surpassed the

660
01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:34,780
number that we lost that day.

661
01:02:34,780 --> 01:02:43,820
Yep. Yep. That's absolutely true. And it began to bother me a little bit that the USEPA said

662
01:02:43,820 --> 01:02:50,300
the site was safe. I do remember when they came out with that, because the former governor

663
01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:55,740
of New Jersey was the governor who was the head of the EPA at that point. And I remember

664
01:02:55,740 --> 01:03:03,060
the statements and reading about what she declared. And people acted upon what they

665
01:03:03,060 --> 01:03:10,420
thought was valid information. And thinking back, maybe they would have approached it

666
01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:16,820
differently. I don't know. But it just said that that all occurred.

667
01:03:16,820 --> 01:03:21,660
What about the community of New York, the people? After being attacked, I'll give you

668
01:03:21,660 --> 01:03:27,220
a kind of parallel. When 7-7 happened in London, all the bombs on the buses and the underground,

669
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:32,740
I watched that city come together and kind of really a big fuck you to the terrorists

670
01:03:32,740 --> 01:03:36,500
because they went back to work. They went back to school. They just did, you know, obviously

671
01:03:36,500 --> 01:03:41,460
not everyone. Some I'm sure were more traumatized. But it was kind of that, you know, stiff upper

672
01:03:41,460 --> 01:03:47,140
lip British mentality. And it was exactly that. I'm sure the people behind that watching

673
01:03:47,140 --> 01:03:52,220
TV going, oh, everything's just come back to normal or close to aside from obviously

674
01:03:52,220 --> 01:03:56,820
the acute areas where these happen. What did you see as far as the community of the New

675
01:03:56,820 --> 01:03:59,580
Yorkers the weeks and the months after that?

676
01:03:59,580 --> 01:04:06,940
I mean, it was one of the great periods in my life about how people began to sort of

677
01:04:06,940 --> 01:04:18,820
care more for each other, would do small things that would show human interest. And whether

678
01:04:18,820 --> 01:04:24,220
it was driving, whether it was walking on the street, whether it was getting out of

679
01:04:24,220 --> 01:04:30,260
the way of somebody or whatever. I mean, people had sort of turned the corner in realizing

680
01:04:30,260 --> 01:04:41,780
that we're all human beings that need to be treated in a very positive kind of way. So

681
01:04:41,780 --> 01:04:46,380
in New York and New Jersey, where I live, that was all happening. And that was great

682
01:04:46,380 --> 01:04:57,020
to see. Ultimately, it dissipated and it got more of the usual day to day kind of rigor.

683
01:04:57,020 --> 01:05:07,540
But for the time that people kind of changed, it was a wonderful change to see. And I was

684
01:05:07,540 --> 01:05:15,340
proud that people used to see on the TV, they would put little memorials on their

685
01:05:15,340 --> 01:05:25,140
fire escapes and just the small things that were happening were very uplifting. And as

686
01:05:25,140 --> 01:05:32,020
an individual who survived, not just because I survived, but just seeing people taking

687
01:05:32,020 --> 01:05:37,740
extra care for each other made me very happy to see that.

688
01:05:37,740 --> 01:05:42,140
Why do you think it is that that started to become lost? I think a very acute moment that

689
01:05:42,140 --> 01:05:47,140
I remember was John Stewart's speech. And obviously he was just a figurehead of a movement

690
01:05:47,140 --> 01:05:52,620
that was much, much bigger than him. But it really did sway, I think. But it made us realize,

691
01:05:52,620 --> 01:05:57,500
the rest of us that were oblivious, that there was an opposition to even helping these families

692
01:05:57,500 --> 01:06:03,460
of these first responders who were dying from this cancer. So how did we get from that gratitude,

693
01:06:03,460 --> 01:06:08,060
thank you for your service, community based element to there, and I would argue maybe

694
01:06:08,060 --> 01:06:15,420
even worse to today where those lessons seem to have been completely forgotten again.

695
01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:23,300
The only thing I could attribute it to is that when people began to care more for each

696
01:06:23,300 --> 01:06:32,980
other, they may have realized that how quickly your life can be snuffed out, that one day

697
01:06:32,980 --> 01:06:42,460
you're alive and the next day 3,000 people are gone or it could be worse. And so just

698
01:06:42,460 --> 01:06:50,620
the reality of how precious life is, I think, hit people. And it made them realize that

699
01:06:50,620 --> 01:06:58,940
if your life ended tomorrow, act like a good person today. As far as where we are today

700
01:06:58,940 --> 01:07:07,180
and why it might be forgotten is a little hard to decipher. I mean, you know, maybe

701
01:07:07,180 --> 01:07:15,660
young people growing up didn't experience it and maybe their families didn't share

702
01:07:15,660 --> 01:07:22,820
enough about it. Maybe in school they didn't teach enough about it. And maybe that's why

703
01:07:22,820 --> 01:07:35,580
they take a less focused view about it. What I say from my own standpoint is as a survivor

704
01:07:35,580 --> 01:07:43,380
and as a person who experienced it, I just do my very best to try to share it, to explain

705
01:07:43,380 --> 01:07:52,260
it, to answer questions about it. In the remaining life that I have, that's what I choose to

706
01:07:52,260 --> 01:07:58,500
do because I think it's important. And it's not just because it's historical, because

707
01:07:58,500 --> 01:08:08,660
it's emotional and it's personal. I mean, you know, I was able to go home and be with

708
01:08:08,660 --> 01:08:15,300
family, be with friends, be with coworkers, but so many thousands of people and you multiply

709
01:08:15,300 --> 01:08:23,660
it by their family, their friends, their coworkers, their Delhi friends, their neighbors next

710
01:08:23,660 --> 01:08:31,540
door. You know, you multiply that by the thousands of people that were affected by 9-11 and you

711
01:08:31,540 --> 01:08:43,420
realize how overwhelming a thing it was. So I just continue to try personally to try to

712
01:08:43,420 --> 01:08:52,460
care about it and teach about the aspect of caring about people because I personally deem

713
01:08:52,460 --> 01:09:01,500
it's important that violence and terror and all of that is not the way that human beings

714
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:10,100
should be apart from your religion or apart from anything else. We have no right to do

715
01:09:10,100 --> 01:09:16,620
any of that or violent, even what I see today that's happening all around. It shouldn't

716
01:09:16,620 --> 01:09:18,420
be happening to other human beings.

717
01:09:18,420 --> 01:09:24,700
I couldn't agree more. And this was so strange is that if you try and have that conversation

718
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:30,100
and you're not subscribing all the way from one extreme or the other, that humanity piece

719
01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:35,820
is, no one wants to hear it. You know, the suffering and, you know, whatever example,

720
01:09:35,820 --> 01:09:40,940
Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Palestine, whatever the thing, it's the suffering that we're opposed

721
01:09:40,940 --> 01:09:46,180
to. You know, the root cause of these wars are most likely going to be about power and

722
01:09:46,180 --> 01:09:51,900
greed. But all these people that are subjected to this, you know, this is the real atrocity.

723
01:09:51,900 --> 01:09:56,900
And so, yeah, no matter where on the planet it is, it's about stopping human suffering.

724
01:09:56,900 --> 01:10:05,100
Yeah. I mean, I meet people in the museums that I volunteer from all over the world and

725
01:10:05,100 --> 01:10:09,820
I tell them, you know, I'm no different than you. You know, you're from Argentina or you're

726
01:10:09,820 --> 01:10:18,060
from, you know, Great Britain or you're from, you know, Africa. And it doesn't matter. We're

727
01:10:18,060 --> 01:10:24,620
all just trying to live a life and we all should care about each other and not trying

728
01:10:24,620 --> 01:10:32,860
to end lives. And, you know, like you say, a lot of it is over greed or over power or

729
01:10:32,860 --> 01:10:40,620
over things that really in many cases, you know, are kind of inconsequential. So, you

730
01:10:40,620 --> 01:10:43,500
know, but it is what it is.

731
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:48,140
Well, as you mentioned, this was obviously a very traumatic event for you and an emotional

732
01:10:48,140 --> 01:10:54,380
journey. Where did that take you mentally yourself? Where were your kind of lows kind

733
01:10:54,380 --> 01:10:57,860
of processing this? And then what were some of the tools you started using to be able

734
01:10:57,860 --> 01:11:00,140
to grow from this?

735
01:11:00,140 --> 01:11:07,540
Well, early on, it hit me pretty hard. And the fortunate thing was my company, the Port

736
01:11:07,540 --> 01:11:13,300
Authority, offered both one on one counseling and group counseling. And I took advantage

737
01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:21,260
of it because I really felt, you know, it was affecting me kind of terribly. I was able

738
01:11:21,260 --> 01:11:27,580
to do my job and carry on my day to day life. But, you know, mentally, I wasn't in the place

739
01:11:27,580 --> 01:11:34,140
that I thought I should be. So, you know, two times in my life I had psychological counseling

740
01:11:34,140 --> 01:11:40,540
and after 9-11 was one of them. So I took the counseling. And I think the greatest thing

741
01:11:40,540 --> 01:11:48,380
that it taught me was that, you know, you may try to understand what happened and you're

742
01:11:48,380 --> 01:11:53,140
likely going to fail because you're not going to understand why the people did what they

743
01:11:53,140 --> 01:12:01,340
did for whatever reasons they did. But the critical thing is to experience acceptance

744
01:12:01,340 --> 01:12:11,100
because, you know, in my case, my life didn't end. My life continues. So if I continue to

745
01:12:11,100 --> 01:12:17,980
battle it the rest of my life, you know, it's kind of a losing battle. So I just accept

746
01:12:17,980 --> 01:12:26,060
it and it hit home with me and so much so that I kind of did a 180 and I began to realize

747
01:12:26,060 --> 01:12:32,340
that I could make something more positive out of the rest of my life. So that's when

748
01:12:32,340 --> 01:12:39,340
my company, we have this every 9-11, we have a remembrance program called Remembrance to

749
01:12:39,340 --> 01:12:47,540
Renewal. And we do these one day remembrance things where you volunteer at a soup kitchen

750
01:12:47,540 --> 01:12:54,220
or at a church or at a community garden or and you help out. Well, one of the opportunities

751
01:12:54,220 --> 01:12:59,140
they offered was to volunteer for the 9-11 Tribute Museum. But that wasn't a one day

752
01:12:59,140 --> 01:13:06,580
event. It was a commitment of going through a training program, learning to handle being

753
01:13:06,580 --> 01:13:15,340
a tour guide, sharing your personal story and moving indefinitely forward as a volunteer.

754
01:13:15,340 --> 01:13:19,680
So I was up for it and I joined and it was one of the great things that happened in my

755
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:28,620
life because I began to share about it. I was never, I was okay with doing it. I was,

756
01:13:28,620 --> 01:13:35,020
you know, nothing was holding me back, you know, from sharing about my experiences and

757
01:13:35,020 --> 01:13:41,900
I try to encourage people. I try to, you know, particularly younger people stress how important

758
01:13:41,900 --> 01:13:51,900
it is to care and help people. So, you know, for me that psychological help was big and

759
01:13:51,900 --> 01:14:01,940
it really transformed me into being a volunteer and moving forward my life in a way that I

760
01:14:01,940 --> 01:14:12,540
felt was positive and it really was, as I said, kind of a crossroads in my life and

761
01:14:12,540 --> 01:14:19,280
allowed me to sort of take a deep breath and move on.

762
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:24,500
I love what you said about acceptance because you, you know, you had a near death experience.

763
01:14:24,500 --> 01:14:29,300
As you said, you do the math. It was simply a roll of the dice. What floor your office

764
01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:36,700
was on on that day and had the plane a little bit lower, you know, I might not be here talking

765
01:14:36,700 --> 01:14:37,700
to you.

766
01:14:37,700 --> 01:14:43,340
Exactly. So to be given the rest of that life, you know, a second chance, whatever you want

767
01:14:43,340 --> 01:14:52,060
to want to phrase it as, and then allow the trauma that happened to dampen your experience

768
01:14:52,060 --> 01:14:55,900
through that life is a disservice to that chance that you were given. Now it's obviously

769
01:14:55,900 --> 01:14:59,940
a kind of profound thought for someone who's struggling at the moment, but it is a great

770
01:14:59,940 --> 01:15:05,820
concept. You were given X amount of months or years, so live them to the fullest. You

771
01:15:05,820 --> 01:15:09,700
know, if you're going through some stuff, get the health, do the work and then, you

772
01:15:09,700 --> 01:15:14,460
know, use those years to do good in the world rather than allow that trauma to keep crushing

773
01:15:14,460 --> 01:15:16,180
you every day.

774
01:15:16,180 --> 01:15:20,860
The only language I learned in school and I didn't really learn it was Latin and there's

775
01:15:20,860 --> 01:15:26,180
a Latin saying called carpe diem, live for the day. And I thought I was doing that all

776
01:15:26,180 --> 01:15:33,860
along, but I really realized after the counseling that, you know, that was important for me

777
01:15:33,860 --> 01:15:34,860
to do.

778
01:15:34,860 --> 01:15:39,540
Absolutely. Well, talk to me about the memorial because the one that I visited, I believe

779
01:15:39,540 --> 01:15:44,300
is the most recent one, it's by the fountains and you go down underneath into the subterranean

780
01:15:44,300 --> 01:15:49,460
parking. What was the first one, you know, how was that created? And then let's talk

781
01:15:49,460 --> 01:15:53,380
about how that ended up being closed down as well.

782
01:15:53,380 --> 01:15:59,420
Okay. I think what you're referring to is the first museum I volunteered for. It's called

783
01:15:59,420 --> 01:16:07,340
the tribute museum, was started by a ex firefighter who lost his son and a recovery worker and

784
01:16:07,340 --> 01:16:15,220
they banded together. They started the 9-11 tribute museum. They got a, they started the

785
01:16:15,220 --> 01:16:22,460
museum across the street from the world trade center site and they started with developing

786
01:16:22,460 --> 01:16:32,100
a gallery of exhibit items and then they began doing walking tours. And as a, as a volunteer,

787
01:16:32,100 --> 01:16:37,460
I coupled that with continuing my work career and my company was good enough about allowing

788
01:16:37,460 --> 01:16:44,080
me to volunteer maybe a couple of times, few times every month to do the walking tours

789
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:51,020
and be a gallery guide. So I did that for 13 years with them. And then the pandemic

790
01:16:51,020 --> 01:16:59,700
hit in the meantime, about four years prior to the pandemic, they had moved to four blocks

791
01:16:59,700 --> 01:17:05,020
south. So they were kind of a little bit away from the site and, you know, but they were

792
01:17:05,020 --> 01:17:13,820
maintaining good traffic flows and good visitor content for, for doing the, you know, us having

793
01:17:13,820 --> 01:17:21,620
visitors for the walking tours. But once the pandemic hit and everything shut down, basically

794
01:17:21,620 --> 01:17:29,940
the rebound effect was very slow. You know, visitors coming into the U S no international

795
01:17:29,940 --> 01:17:36,620
visitors, which was the primary source of the visitors who came to and took our tours.

796
01:17:36,620 --> 01:17:45,940
So that almost ended completely. And the landlord was apparently okay with delaying the lease

797
01:17:45,940 --> 01:17:53,220
payments, but didn't forgive it. So we unfortunately had a huge debt that was just mounting and

798
01:17:53,220 --> 01:17:59,700
mounting and then they just had to call it a day at one point. So they closed the museum

799
01:17:59,700 --> 01:18:06,580
eliminated the walking tours and that was it. Many of the exhibits were sent to the

800
01:18:06,580 --> 01:18:12,980
state museum in Albany and that ended the 9 11 tribute museum. And we've, we've tried

801
01:18:12,980 --> 01:18:21,220
to get it resurrected in certain ways. A bunch of us volunteer still remain in connection

802
01:18:21,220 --> 01:18:29,980
with each other. So, you know, but the reality is to have a museum or really any kind of

803
01:18:29,980 --> 01:18:36,220
organized walking tour setup is, is literally, you know, more than a million dollars every

804
01:18:36,220 --> 01:18:41,780
year. So you're not going to get that in the fees you charge. So you need either corporate

805
01:18:41,780 --> 01:18:48,700
help or governmental funding. And we wrote letters and we tried, but it didn't wind up

806
01:18:48,700 --> 01:18:58,180
in getting the financial help that was needed. So 9 11 tribute museum closed. Prior to that,

807
01:18:58,180 --> 01:19:06,620
I believe it was around 2012 or 13 was when the national museum opened the 9 11 Memorial

808
01:19:06,620 --> 01:19:12,980
and Museum, you know, was, is funded by the federal government. It's funded by major

809
01:19:12,980 --> 01:19:22,260
grants and has financial footing that allows them to, you know, continue to do what they

810
01:19:22,260 --> 01:19:30,900
do within their museum and within, you know, maintaining the outer Memorial. I initially

811
01:19:30,900 --> 01:19:35,940
didn't join them, but ultimately I did go to their training program and have now joined

812
01:19:35,940 --> 01:19:44,140
them as a volunteer at the 9 11 Memorial and Museum. There's a difference as a volunteer

813
01:19:44,140 --> 01:19:51,420
first at tribute, we were involved in what we call person to person history, which is

814
01:19:51,420 --> 01:19:59,380
more my realm and more where I feel comfortable with, or is the national museum that I live

815
01:19:59,380 --> 01:20:15,560
in Memorial Museum is more exhibit driven is more programs and less personal type interactions.

816
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:23,820
So I'm doing okay there. I still have some good one on one conversations with people.

817
01:20:23,820 --> 01:20:33,020
And I also now volunteer at the Intrepid Museum and I volunteer for education first and for

818
01:20:33,020 --> 01:20:39,540
tunnel to towers. So I'm trying to find my way back in terms of what's situated best

819
01:20:39,540 --> 01:20:46,300
for me as an individual in terms of volunteerism. The thing about the national museum, you know,

820
01:20:46,300 --> 01:20:50,820
the Memorial was beautiful. You said you were there. You said you went into the museum,

821
01:20:50,820 --> 01:20:56,220
you know, the reflecting absence pools sit right on the footprints of each of the two

822
01:20:56,220 --> 01:21:05,100
towers and it really is well done with all the 400 or so trees that are there. The names

823
01:21:05,100 --> 01:21:11,420
surrounding each of the reflecting absence pools. If you go there in the evening, the

824
01:21:11,420 --> 01:21:18,420
walls light up at night, the flow of the water. I mean, you know, you couldn't have a more

825
01:21:18,420 --> 01:21:25,180
beautiful memorial than what they set up. And the museum is equally powerful. I mean,

826
01:21:25,180 --> 01:21:31,380
in terms of the exhibits that they have there on the survivor stairs, the last column, the

827
01:21:31,380 --> 01:21:36,740
different things that the national museum brought in and the programs that they bring

828
01:21:36,740 --> 01:21:45,180
in or are very powerful and very attractive for visitors.

829
01:21:45,180 --> 01:21:50,700
With all the interactions that you've had, the first responders, obviously, that was

830
01:21:50,700 --> 01:21:55,900
their job. Now, over and above that, the courage within the uniform is unquestionable. But

831
01:21:55,900 --> 01:22:02,500
I think where there's a lot of power as well is the civilians that showed incredible courage.

832
01:22:02,500 --> 01:22:06,940
So what are some of the stories that really resonated with you about the heroism of people,

833
01:22:06,940 --> 01:22:11,100
whether they made it out or maybe didn't even make it out themselves?

834
01:22:11,100 --> 01:22:22,140
Well, I knew of one other handicapped person who worked in our company. And she was like

835
01:22:22,140 --> 01:22:29,020
a smaller woman than John was. John was a big guy. And, you know, we needed the kind

836
01:22:29,020 --> 01:22:34,980
of power of multiple guys to get him down. But this other woman worked, I think, on a

837
01:22:34,980 --> 01:22:42,580
floor above us or two floors above us. And the story I heard was, whereas we had 10 people,

838
01:22:42,580 --> 01:22:50,360
only two or three people carried her evacuee chair down. So for those individuals, I mean,

839
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:57,900
so much, you know, great courage on their part to probably have worked a whole lot harder

840
01:22:57,900 --> 01:23:06,140
than we worked, but yet accomplished the same evacuation success. I mean, kudos to them.

841
01:23:06,140 --> 01:23:14,600
There's the one individual, the Red Bandana guy, I forget his name, that was on a really

842
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:23,500
high floor. And he was guiding individuals to safety constantly, you know, minute by

843
01:23:23,500 --> 01:23:31,420
minute, hour by hour, would get a group down, go back up, guide and get more down. And,

844
01:23:31,420 --> 01:23:38,620
you know, the courage that he had, and ultimately sacrificing his life in terms of doing it,

845
01:23:38,620 --> 01:23:47,500
I understand they have, I think, a run and walk every annual period for him. They have

846
01:23:47,500 --> 01:23:55,180
a football game every annual period in his honor. And there's an individual who did his

847
01:23:55,180 --> 01:24:03,340
level best. There were individuals in my company and police officers like Will Jimeno, who,

848
01:24:03,340 --> 01:24:11,100
you know, they just went ahead, they plunged ahead to try to help, and they didn't care

849
01:24:11,100 --> 01:24:18,460
about their own lives. Police officers and civilian employees of my company did that,

850
01:24:18,460 --> 01:24:25,340
and they died doing that. And two of the people who I first started at the Port Authority

851
01:24:25,340 --> 01:24:33,580
with, they were in World Trade Operations. One guy was Gene Ragione, the other guy Ken

852
01:24:33,580 --> 01:24:41,260
Grizzales. And, you know, when I heard that they died, and they were two of the many Port

853
01:24:41,260 --> 01:24:48,140
Authority people who died, I was saddened, you know, to a great extent. But then I picked

854
01:24:48,140 --> 01:24:54,020
myself up. And I said, well, knowing those two individuals, they would stay to the bitter

855
01:24:54,020 --> 01:24:58,780
end and they would continue to try to help because that was the character of who they

856
01:24:58,780 --> 01:25:04,900
were. So those are some of the people that I remember either hearing about or knowing

857
01:25:04,900 --> 01:25:10,420
personally that I really, you know, give so much credit to.

858
01:25:10,420 --> 01:25:16,700
Well, speaking of companies that did the right thing, I shared the cancer Fitzgerald story

859
01:25:16,700 --> 01:25:23,280
a few weeks ago. So talk to me from a corporate point of view, some of the stories of companies

860
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:28,300
that really took care of the families of the people that have been lost.

861
01:25:28,300 --> 01:25:36,500
Well, cancer Fitzgerald was, you know, the biggest, I think, in terms of loss, but also

862
01:25:36,500 --> 01:25:42,860
in terms of I believe their leader survived and he made it his mission to continue to

863
01:25:42,860 --> 01:25:50,740
help the families. There was another company, I think something in McDermott that lost about

864
01:25:50,740 --> 01:26:03,220
300 or 400 people. And they were another company that gave commitment to never forgetting the

865
01:26:03,220 --> 01:26:12,820
families of those who were lost. The one company I volunteer, or organization that I volunteer

866
01:26:12,820 --> 01:26:25,500
for now, Tunnel to Towers, is now in the mode of building special constructed homes for

867
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:33,820
first responders who were injured but still alive and need specially constructed homes.

868
01:26:33,820 --> 01:26:46,620
They also build homes for or pay off the mortgages for families who lost their caregiver, their

869
01:26:46,620 --> 01:26:51,300
provider, and, you know, so that they don't have to worry about a mortgage for the rest

870
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:57,980
of their lives. Tunnel to Towers is really strong in doing that. There are other companies

871
01:26:57,980 --> 01:27:06,060
too that I'm aware of. There was one company that drew the 9-11 Tribute Museum would come

872
01:27:06,060 --> 01:27:18,180
annually and have an award ceremony for employees who demonstrated some kind of great success

873
01:27:18,180 --> 01:27:25,700
for their company. And they were out west, but they flew those individuals to New York

874
01:27:25,700 --> 01:27:32,180
who were winners of this week in New York City where they celebrate, they honor the

875
01:27:32,180 --> 01:27:38,940
victims that they had who were lost, and in turn honor their current employees, fly them

876
01:27:38,940 --> 01:27:46,580
across to New York for a week where they do experience the 9-11 Museum and the memorial,

877
01:27:46,580 --> 01:27:51,800
but they also maybe get to spend a week in New York that they never would have otherwise

878
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:57,580
spent their entire lifetime. So that's another example of something I know where a company

879
01:27:57,580 --> 01:28:06,740
is another one was Federal Express who had, I think, 11 employees who died and they put

880
01:28:06,740 --> 01:28:13,020
up this beautiful memorial across the street in the World Financial Center that honored

881
01:28:13,020 --> 01:28:19,620
those 11 employees that died on 9-11. And I remember when we used to do the walking

882
01:28:19,620 --> 01:28:27,780
tours, that was always one of our stopping points to check out for our visitors the American

883
01:28:27,780 --> 01:28:34,900
Express 9-11 Memorial across the street in the World Financial Center. So I'm sure there's

884
01:28:34,900 --> 01:28:41,060
countless others who, I know we were talking before about those who don't remember, but

885
01:28:41,060 --> 01:28:43,300
there are plenty who still do remember.

886
01:28:43,300 --> 01:28:47,740
Yeah, absolutely. That's what struck me about the cancer Fitzgerald story, because if I

887
01:28:47,740 --> 01:28:55,540
remember rightly, they put the children of the people that were lost through college

888
01:28:55,540 --> 01:29:00,500
and I think there was also an offer for employment by the company for all the children as well.

889
01:29:00,500 --> 01:29:01,500
So phenomenal.

890
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:03,900
Absolutely. Absolutely awesome.

891
01:29:03,900 --> 01:29:09,780
Well, you mentioned tunnel the towers. I was in New York a few years ago and I actually

892
01:29:09,780 --> 01:29:16,140
climbed one World Trade with a Marine who lost both legs serving. And it was quite funny

893
01:29:16,140 --> 01:29:20,980
because I paid an extra suitcase to ship all my fire gear over there. And then we got there,

894
01:29:20,980 --> 01:29:25,860
they were like, no, because it had just opened up security was super, super tight. So we

895
01:29:25,860 --> 01:29:29,820
had to just do it in regular and I felt like a fraud then I'm doing it in shorts and a

896
01:29:29,820 --> 01:29:34,580
t-shirt. And then this guy's bear crawling 100 floors and I'm, you know, walking but

897
01:29:34,580 --> 01:29:38,780
it was it was really tough. Yeah, it was probably the stairwell that the first responders use

898
01:29:38,780 --> 01:29:43,900
I would imagine as well that we were climbing. But such an amazing organization and Steven

899
01:29:43,900 --> 01:29:48,100
Silas or Steven Silas, excuse me, parents were at the top waiting for us when we got

900
01:29:48,100 --> 01:29:49,100
there too.

901
01:29:49,100 --> 01:29:56,900
Yeah, we just had the the 5k run and walk a few weeks back. And, you know, I kind of

902
01:29:56,900 --> 01:30:03,740
experienced it the same thing. I mean, I'm walking over to it was about two miles from

903
01:30:03,740 --> 01:30:10,060
where the ferry let us off to where the tunnel started. You know, and I'm seeing an individual

904
01:30:10,060 --> 01:30:17,780
sitting in a bus shelter, taking off his or readjusting his artificial limb. You know,

905
01:30:17,780 --> 01:30:22,300
the limb was off and he's readjusting it. And I'm kicking myself in the head and saying,

906
01:30:22,300 --> 01:30:29,260
hey, this guy's about to do the 5k run and walk. And I didn't even run it. I walked it.

907
01:30:29,260 --> 01:30:34,620
And, you know, in the same vein, the people who walk up one world, you know, who run up

908
01:30:34,620 --> 01:30:40,540
one world trade, and I heard the fastest ones do it in 25 minutes. And I'm saying, I don't

909
01:30:40,540 --> 01:30:45,940
think I can even finish it, let alone the fire gear. And there's people who do it in

910
01:30:45,940 --> 01:30:49,940
25 minutes. But some of this is all amazing.

911
01:30:49,940 --> 01:30:55,420
Yeah, there was a very powerful moment. Well, speaking of that, did the Port Authority go

912
01:30:55,420 --> 01:31:00,980
into one world trade or did they end up moving to a different place?

913
01:31:00,980 --> 01:31:09,060
They actually wound up in four world trade. We were displaced. I mean, the fortunate part

914
01:31:09,060 --> 01:31:15,460
was we were a bi-state agency. So, you know, just taking you back the following day when

915
01:31:15,460 --> 01:31:20,140
John got an ambulance home that took him home to Queens and I was able to make my way home

916
01:31:20,140 --> 01:31:25,860
to New Jersey. I actually went and stopped at the business recovery site, which started

917
01:31:25,860 --> 01:31:33,500
the next day because we had a New Jersey office where business recovery can resume. So I went

918
01:31:33,500 --> 01:31:39,340
just to hug my coworkers and let them know I was still alive and John was still alive.

919
01:31:39,340 --> 01:31:45,260
But business recovery for us was OK because we had other office locations where some people

920
01:31:45,260 --> 01:31:49,380
lost literally everything and had no other location.

921
01:31:49,380 --> 01:32:06,500
So yeah, it was significant to kind of bounce back in a business way in addition to a personal

922
01:32:06,500 --> 01:32:17,660
way for all of us. And the Port Authority had offices, I think, on Madison Avenue and

923
01:32:17,660 --> 01:32:26,180
Park Avenue. And then ultimately when Tower 4 was constructed, we didn't move into Tower

924
01:32:26,180 --> 01:32:31,500
1. We moved into Tower 4 and took over and became an anchor tenant in Tower 4, the new

925
01:32:31,500 --> 01:32:39,500
Tower 4. So they're the new anchor tenant in Tower 4. The way it worked, though, was

926
01:32:39,500 --> 01:32:48,300
the Port Authority decided to allow department heads to determine whether they move to Fort

927
01:32:48,300 --> 01:32:54,620
World Trade or stay where they were. And my director in my department decided he preferred

928
01:32:54,620 --> 01:33:00,060
to stay in New Jersey. So we remained in New Jersey and did not, my department did not

929
01:33:00,060 --> 01:33:05,500
move back to the World Trade Center. So the latter part of my career, I spent in New Jersey

930
01:33:05,500 --> 01:33:12,820
rather than in New York. But other Port Authority employees moved to the new headquarters, which

931
01:33:12,820 --> 01:33:15,620
was now Fort World Trade Center.

932
01:33:15,620 --> 01:33:21,140
Well, I want to throw some closing questions at you. But before I do, is there any other

933
01:33:21,140 --> 01:33:27,180
area that you want to make sure that we discuss before we close out?

934
01:33:27,180 --> 01:33:36,580
First, as a movement or a path forward, I've made it kind of my own personal commitment

935
01:33:36,580 --> 01:33:48,600
to be a volunteer and to, you know, now 23 years after the attacks, continue to try to

936
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:59,940
share stories, educate, and most of all, remember the people who lost their lives so innocently

937
01:33:59,940 --> 01:34:09,100
or tragically that particular day. So it's my personal commitment to have remembrance,

938
01:34:09,100 --> 01:34:16,540
but also to kind of do what I can in terms of education, too, for people who weren't

939
01:34:16,540 --> 01:34:25,220
alive. I run into so many young kids who weren't alive and schools teach it, but maybe there's

940
01:34:25,220 --> 01:34:30,180
ways that I could share or I could answer their questions that could help them to kind

941
01:34:30,180 --> 01:34:36,660
of relate to it a little bit better. So I have made it my commitment to not only to

942
01:34:36,660 --> 01:34:43,380
share with adults, but also to try to educate younger people about it and answer their questions.

943
01:34:43,380 --> 01:34:53,540
And you know, you have one lifetime and if I could utilize it in a way that is positive,

944
01:34:53,540 --> 01:34:59,700
that's what I wish to do. I remain a hopeful individual. I mean, I really hope World Trade

945
01:34:59,700 --> 01:35:04,020
Center, there never has to be another World Trade Center. There never has to be the kind

946
01:35:04,020 --> 01:35:11,260
of terrorism. You know, you mentioned about 7-7 in London and that's my birthday. And

947
01:35:11,260 --> 01:35:16,300
it's like, I'll always remember London and I shouldn't have to remember London for that

948
01:35:16,300 --> 01:35:22,300
reason, but it happened on my birthday. But I really hope that no one has to go through

949
01:35:22,300 --> 01:35:28,740
what we went through and maybe doesn't have to lose individuals. And so what I tend to

950
01:35:28,740 --> 01:35:34,980
talk particularly to younger people is about helping rather than hurting because your world

951
01:35:34,980 --> 01:35:42,700
is going to be a much better place and you're going to have much more positivity if you

952
01:35:42,700 --> 01:35:48,420
care about people and you try to be helpful rather than hurtful.

953
01:35:48,420 --> 01:35:53,620
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And obviously coming from the tribulations

954
01:35:53,620 --> 01:35:57,260
that you've gone through, I think that makes your voice even more powerful. So thank you

955
01:35:57,260 --> 01:35:58,460
for that.

956
01:35:58,460 --> 01:36:05,820
I think it's not just major terrorism or attacks or disasters. It's the common things that

957
01:36:05,820 --> 01:36:12,820
you see kind of happening around too. You know, the street corner violence, you know,

958
01:36:12,820 --> 01:36:19,060
the knifing attacks, the guns. I mean, you know, it's not a world that we're going to

959
01:36:19,060 --> 01:36:24,700
all survive if that continues. So let's get back to caring about people. You could disagree

960
01:36:24,700 --> 01:36:29,420
with people, but it doesn't mean you have to take their life.

961
01:36:29,420 --> 01:36:35,140
Absolutely. Yeah. Community is important. I think we've seen a lot of deliberate division

962
01:36:35,140 --> 01:36:40,660
and pigeonholing. And I think that if we can have an awakening and realize our shared humanity,

963
01:36:40,660 --> 01:36:42,220
that would go a long way.

964
01:36:42,220 --> 01:36:48,300
Yeah. Yeah. And I could disagree with you, but it doesn't mean I have to hate you. It

965
01:36:48,300 --> 01:36:54,860
doesn't mean I have to be violent against you. We just kind of go our separate ways

966
01:36:54,860 --> 01:37:01,220
and you know, life should move on that way. And I mean, I'm proud from the fact that I've

967
01:37:01,220 --> 01:37:06,300
always kind of been that way. I never, you know, one of the difficulties I had with my

968
01:37:06,300 --> 01:37:13,100
dad was he wanted me to join the military and I didn't see myself picking up a gun and

969
01:37:13,100 --> 01:37:19,500
shooting and maybe, you know, killing other people. I mean, I understand. I give so much

970
01:37:19,500 --> 01:37:26,380
credit to yourself and the other people who, you know, care and really, you know, protect

971
01:37:26,380 --> 01:37:31,740
our country, but just individually, I guess I was cut out a little bit differently.

972
01:37:31,740 --> 01:37:36,020
Absolutely. Yeah. That's why I chose firefighting. I was, my dad wanted me to go in the military.

973
01:37:36,020 --> 01:37:39,700
He wanted me to be a PTI, so physical training instructor. So it wasn't like he wanted me

974
01:37:39,700 --> 01:37:44,540
on the battleground specifically, but yeah, it was the fire because that's, if you look

975
01:37:44,540 --> 01:37:49,460
at that section of the first responders, we're helping, you know, the law enforcement as

976
01:37:49,460 --> 01:37:52,980
well, but they have to arrest, they have to shoot sometimes as part of the job. But for

977
01:37:52,980 --> 01:37:58,580
us, usually we're rescuing. Yeah. And as I said, I gained much greater

978
01:37:58,580 --> 01:38:04,140
appreciation for your profession because of seeing those firefighters go right next to

979
01:38:04,140 --> 01:38:10,240
me and continue to go up. I never had that experience in my life and it was so powerful

980
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:13,540
for me. Well, I want to throw some quick closing

981
01:38:13,540 --> 01:38:18,140
questions at you before I let you go. The first one I love to ask, is there a book or

982
01:38:18,140 --> 01:38:22,060
are there books that you love to recommend? It can be related to what we've discussed

983
01:38:22,060 --> 01:38:30,820
today or completely unrelated? Well, we were part of a couple of books. One

984
01:38:30,820 --> 01:38:37,620
of them is called Never Forget and the other one is called 102 Minutes. I think 23 years

985
01:38:37,620 --> 01:38:44,660
later those books may not be available, but if they are, they do kind of shed light on

986
01:38:44,660 --> 01:38:51,420
not only our story with my group, but many other stories and many other first person

987
01:38:51,420 --> 01:38:59,140
accounts. So they are, you know, powerful stories. And to me, you know, particularly

988
01:38:59,140 --> 01:39:03,980
for young people who may want a bit of an education about it more than what the school

989
01:39:03,980 --> 01:39:10,140
may be teaching them, those books, you know, might be able to do it for them. There's also

990
01:39:10,140 --> 01:39:16,220
movies. There's movies. I think the one that Will Jimeno was in, you know, there's a movie

991
01:39:16,220 --> 01:39:20,660
about that. The World Trade Center. I worked on that.

992
01:39:20,660 --> 01:39:24,300
I was actually a glorified firefighter extra on that film.

993
01:39:24,300 --> 01:39:34,980
Nice. Nice. I mean, so, you know, there are different media accounts that do cover important,

994
01:39:34,980 --> 01:39:41,220
you know, first person experiences both that day and in the days that follow.

995
01:39:41,220 --> 01:39:47,020
I had Jules and Gérion Norde on the show. Those are the two French brothers. The 9-11.

996
01:39:47,020 --> 01:39:56,940
Wow. Wow. Yeah. They talk about being in a spot you never expected to be. And I mean,

997
01:39:56,940 --> 01:40:01,940
they're the prime example of that, right? I mean, they were just shooting a documentary

998
01:40:01,940 --> 01:40:09,180
or something and they were thrust into moment by moment stuff that was happening. And, you

999
01:40:09,180 --> 01:40:16,700
know, that one, I think it's an epic shot of, I think it was them where our tower was

1000
01:40:16,700 --> 01:40:23,860
already hit and they looked up and saw the second tower being hit. I mean, that was amazing.

1001
01:40:23,860 --> 01:40:28,860
Yeah, absolutely. They're very powerful and they're incredible men. They did one on the

1002
01:40:28,860 --> 01:40:33,140
Bataclan shooting the attacks in Paris and then they did one on the Notre Dame fire as

1003
01:40:33,140 --> 01:40:37,460
well. So each of their documentaries has been excellent.

1004
01:40:37,460 --> 01:40:43,660
And I always, not always, but I mentioned about the other Frenchman who had his connection

1005
01:40:43,660 --> 01:40:48,620
to World Trade Center, which was Philippe Petit, who walked the line. I mean, you know,

1006
01:40:48,620 --> 01:40:53,100
a lot of young people don't know that he walked back and forth eight times and at one point

1007
01:40:53,100 --> 01:40:59,340
he laid on his back on the wire. This is a hundred stories above ground. And to do that

1008
01:40:59,340 --> 01:41:06,780
with a pole, I mean, you talk about mental strength and I mean, there's movies about

1009
01:41:06,780 --> 01:41:10,420
that. It amazes me till today. Yeah. I think is it Man on a Wire? I think

1010
01:41:10,420 --> 01:41:14,140
it is a documentary. Man on a Wire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible.

1011
01:41:14,140 --> 01:41:17,340
It's awesome. All right. Well, speaking of amazing people,

1012
01:41:17,340 --> 01:41:21,940
is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the

1013
01:41:21,940 --> 01:41:25,860
first responders, military and associated professions of the world?

1014
01:41:25,860 --> 01:41:31,380
Well, you know, the one I would love for you to speak to is my friend John, who we helped

1015
01:41:31,380 --> 01:41:37,720
rescue. Unfortunately, I've tried being in, I was in pretty regular communication with

1016
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:46,500
him by phone and he, you know, I think something may have occurred because he hasn't answered

1017
01:41:46,500 --> 01:41:51,420
my calls in about four to six months, but he's a type of individual because I've invited

1018
01:41:51,420 --> 01:41:59,340
him to do the visitor tours or to be a gallery guide with me. But he just declined on that.

1019
01:41:59,340 --> 01:42:06,260
And I understood it because of his handicap and his disability. It's difficult for him,

1020
01:42:06,260 --> 01:42:13,620
but maybe from a first person, you know, survival standpoint, he would be if I ever could reestablish

1021
01:42:13,620 --> 01:42:20,980
contact with him, be sure to pass his name along to you. You know, he doesn't do a lot

1022
01:42:20,980 --> 01:42:28,020
of personal stuff, but he may be willing to do, you know, a call.

1023
01:42:28,020 --> 01:42:33,140
Absolutely. Other than that, I mean, there may be, there's

1024
01:42:33,140 --> 01:42:43,940
not one individual that comes to mind in terms of, you know, my buddy Gene, who passed, he

1025
01:42:43,940 --> 01:42:50,300
worked for World Trade Operations. You know, he was one of the victims of 9-11. But survivor

1026
01:42:50,300 --> 01:42:59,940
wise, just, you know, possibly some of the people now who have worked in the recovery

1027
01:42:59,940 --> 01:43:07,100
period. I don't have any names that I could throw out to you, but to me, those people

1028
01:43:07,100 --> 01:43:15,540
were very heroic, as it turned out, you know, and they tried to bring closure to families.

1029
01:43:15,540 --> 01:43:22,020
And you know, I remember each night seeing the glowing fire burning from the rubble of

1030
01:43:22,020 --> 01:43:26,380
World Trade Center and it burned for six months, yet people went in there day and night to

1031
01:43:26,380 --> 01:43:34,380
try to clean and recover bodies. And to me, if any of those people remain alive, their

1032
01:43:34,380 --> 01:43:42,060
heroism should be honored. So if I come across any of those names, I would be sure to let

1033
01:43:42,060 --> 01:43:48,420
you know, because to me, they got sick and they're making the ultimate sacrifice.

1034
01:43:48,420 --> 01:43:52,860
Absolutely. Yeah, please do. I would love to get someone like that on. Thank you.

1035
01:43:52,860 --> 01:43:53,860
Okay.

1036
01:43:53,860 --> 01:43:57,700
So within the very last question, before we make sure people know where to find you, what

1037
01:43:57,700 --> 01:44:00,220
do you do to decompress?

1038
01:44:00,220 --> 01:44:09,260
Well, I mentioned before about being a Rangers fan. So I go to hockey games. I sit up in

1039
01:44:09,260 --> 01:44:16,220
the upper tier and you know, hockey to me is fast. It's action, it's hitting, it has

1040
01:44:16,220 --> 01:44:23,060
a lot of everything. So hockey has always been an excitement for me. But I like movies

1041
01:44:23,060 --> 01:44:30,420
too. I mean, for me, you know, I like kind of stupid comedy movies because it's uplifting

1042
01:44:30,420 --> 01:44:39,060
for me. So I like dramas too, but the comedy ones, you know, really get to me and lift

1043
01:44:39,060 --> 01:44:48,260
me. And I go to concerts. I'm a British rock and roll fan. So, you know, Thompson Twins,

1044
01:44:48,260 --> 01:44:59,900
Duran Duran, you know, I saw a guy Howard Jones a few weeks ago. I'm a follower of bands

1045
01:44:59,900 --> 01:45:06,620
from the 80s. And I think it was the greatest generation of music and mostly British. I'm

1046
01:45:06,620 --> 01:45:13,780
not really too big a fan of local people like John Bon Jovi or Bruce Springsteen. They're

1047
01:45:13,780 --> 01:45:18,340
all from New Jersey, but I never liked their music. I liked the British music. So, you

1048
01:45:18,340 --> 01:45:23,220
know, I thought the police, my brother introduced me to the police and you know, the police

1049
01:45:23,220 --> 01:45:29,540
to me were the greatest three man band ever. I mean, they did, you know, such great music

1050
01:45:29,540 --> 01:45:35,660
when I was growing up. And, you know, so, you know, the British bands really did it

1051
01:45:35,660 --> 01:45:41,260
for me. So whenever I get an opportunity to listen or to go to concerts and a lot of the

1052
01:45:41,260 --> 01:45:46,860
older artists are still performing here and there. So, you know, you do get to see them.

1053
01:45:46,860 --> 01:45:53,460
So I'm happy for that. So, you know, those are the things. And, you know, I jog when

1054
01:45:53,460 --> 01:46:00,980
mostly my health is pretty good. So I jog and stay active walking. And, you know, that

1055
01:46:00,980 --> 01:46:07,440
kind of helps particularly during this time of year when the weather is cooler. It really,

1056
01:46:07,440 --> 01:46:14,900
you know, is uplifting for me. So, you know, I try to stay actively as a volunteer, you

1057
01:46:14,900 --> 01:46:21,840
know, to move around. And, you know, I think moving around is really helping me as I approach

1058
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:24,660
my later years. So that's good for me.

1059
01:46:24,660 --> 01:46:29,060
Excellent. Yeah, the bands that you reeled out was literally when I was a little boy.

1060
01:46:29,060 --> 01:46:30,860
So I recognize all of them.

1061
01:46:30,860 --> 01:46:36,180
Yeah, yeah. Eric Clapton too is another name that comes to mind. I mean, he was awesome

1062
01:46:36,180 --> 01:46:43,900
also. So, you know, but these are what I grew up with and I really enjoy. It's funny. I

1063
01:46:43,900 --> 01:46:49,860
enjoyed more like international music than US or New Jersey music, but it's just turned

1064
01:46:49,860 --> 01:46:50,860
out that way.

1065
01:46:50,860 --> 01:46:54,860
Yeah, when I was little, I was listening to all the British bands, but then I got into

1066
01:46:54,860 --> 01:47:00,300
my teens, I got into hip hop. So I'm a little English farm boy listening to people from,

1067
01:47:00,300 --> 01:47:02,860
you know, New Jersey, New York and California.

1068
01:47:02,860 --> 01:47:09,020
So that's amazing how, you know, we're all individuals and we all have different, you

1069
01:47:09,020 --> 01:47:16,500
know, things that kind of turn us on and you can't really put your finger on wire, but

1070
01:47:16,500 --> 01:47:17,500
it works out.

1071
01:47:17,500 --> 01:47:20,020
Absolutely. Well, again, it's that shared humanity.

1072
01:47:20,020 --> 01:47:24,180
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You should never lose that.

1073
01:47:24,180 --> 01:47:29,420
100%. What if people listening wanted to reach out to you, learn more about you? Are there

1074
01:47:29,420 --> 01:47:32,420
any places online or on social media?

1075
01:47:32,420 --> 01:47:40,460
Yeah, I mean, I'm not really active on Facebook or Instagram or anything. My email address,

1076
01:47:40,460 --> 01:47:44,340
if you want me to give that, they could reach out to me to my email address.

1077
01:47:44,340 --> 01:47:46,460
If you'd like.

1078
01:47:46,460 --> 01:47:59,060
Yeah, it's pbits2019 at gmail.com. So I'll endeavor to answer anybody who reaches out

1079
01:47:59,060 --> 01:48:05,700
to me. And, you know, it's the one media. I was never really a technical person. So I

1080
01:48:05,700 --> 01:48:10,220
never. And now with all the volunteering, I don't really have the time to be on social

1081
01:48:10,220 --> 01:48:17,100
media. So but emails I'll typically, you know, look at once a day. So if they were to reach

1082
01:48:17,100 --> 01:48:23,700
out to me, that would be the one place where I could respond back to them. And, you know,

1083
01:48:23,700 --> 01:48:30,220
like I said earlier, I mean, what I like, what I liked as a volunteer was the person

1084
01:48:30,220 --> 01:48:35,420
the Tribute Museum did it the best with the person to person history. And I relate the

1085
01:48:35,420 --> 01:48:43,580
best that way. And so whether it's an email or a person to person contact, I still hope

1086
01:48:43,580 --> 01:48:48,140
as in the future to continue to remember and to share.

1087
01:48:48,140 --> 01:48:53,380
Beautiful. Well, I want to thank you so much. I mean, firstly, as I say to a lot of people,

1088
01:48:53,380 --> 01:48:58,100
you know, when they're recounting on the show, some of the more traumatic moments of their

1089
01:48:58,100 --> 01:49:02,460
life, I understand that it kind of opens the wound a little bit. But I hope it's also served

1090
01:49:02,460 --> 01:49:07,620
as firstly, a reminder as you and I obviously on the same page, as far as the community

1091
01:49:07,620 --> 01:49:12,740
and the humanity that we need to refine. But secondly, you know, educate our younger people

1092
01:49:12,740 --> 01:49:16,820
on what happened. And I think thirdly, a lot of us listening, you know, we've heard the

1093
01:49:16,820 --> 01:49:19,980
responder stories over and over again. But I think this is the first time I've really

1094
01:49:19,980 --> 01:49:24,540
heard someone that was literally working that day and saw it from a completely different

1095
01:49:24,540 --> 01:49:29,700
perspective. So I want to thank you so, so much for your vulnerability and also for being

1096
01:49:29,700 --> 01:49:35,060
so generous with your time and come on behind the shield podcast today.

1097
01:49:35,060 --> 01:49:40,660
Thank you so much, James. It was great talking to you and meeting you. And let's carry on

1098
01:49:40,660 --> 01:49:53,860
positive every day as we move forward.