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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.

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Well, since then, I have actually been using my products and I've had incredible success.

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There was initial blood work that was extremely detailed and based on that, they offered supplementation.

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So I began taking DHEA, BPC 157 for inflammation based on the fact that I've been a stump man and martial artist and a firefighter my whole life, lots of aches and pains,

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dihexer to help cognition after multiple punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later, they did a detailed blood work again and I was actually able to taper off two of the peptides because my body had responded so well to just one of them that it was optimized at that point.

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So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense range of supplementation that they offer, whether it's male health, female health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, which I would argue is needed by a lot of the fire service,

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or whether it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of this company is an altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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which is putting veterans and first responders through some of their protocols free of charge.

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Now, Transcend are also offering you the audience 10% off their protocols and you can find that on jamesgearing.com under the products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 808 with the founder Ernie Colling or go to Transcend company.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,

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retired veteran Chicago police officer and the author of multiple books, including Breaking the Barriers, Dr. Ron Ruffo.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his early life, entering law enforcement at the age of 40,

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proactive crime prevention, the defund movement, his own extremely powerful mental health story, sexual predators and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredibly powerful and important conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Dr. Ron Ruffo. Enjoy.

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Well, Ron, I want to start by saying I'm so glad that we're finally sitting down.

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You and I have gone back and forth, I think for several years, we've been talking about this topic, and we know that you've been working on a lot of different topics.

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You've been working on a lot of topics, you've been working on a lot of topics, and you've been working on a lot of topics.

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We've been working on a lot of topics, and we know that you've been working on a lot of topics.

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saying, I'm so glad that we're finally sitting down. You and I have gone back and forth, I think for

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several years now, as far as you know, what you're doing in law enforcement, and obviously what I'm

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trying to do in the first responder professions in general. And we are finally sitting down. So I

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want to welcome you finally to the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thanks, James. I'm so proud

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and honored to be with you. Where on planet Earth are we finding you today? You are finding me in

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the city of Chicago. I'm retired nine years from the Chicago police. So Chicago has been my home.

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In fact, I'm 70 years old, and I've been here 70 years in the city. So beautiful. All right. Well,

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let's start at the very beginning then tell me where you were born. And tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings. Okay, I was, again,

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I was born in Chicago, 1954, in March, March 4. In fact, the day the city became a city

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in Chicago, we celebrate March 4. And I was, I think I was an average student, an average kid.

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I was, you know, I didn't excel in sports, but I did play. And I went to my, a great grammar

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school. It was a Catholic education. I went to eighth grade, great high school, I mean, grammar

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school. Then I went to St. Patrick High School in Chicago was an all boys school. I'm kind of glad

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I went there. In fact, I'm had a security there now. No, really at my old high school being.

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Yes, I'm in head of our security for St. Pat's, which is good. So you see all these young kids

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where I was got 50 some years ago. I love Chicago, my mom and dad, my dad was a hard worker, he had

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two jobs. And he was, he was a, he was a good person. He always said, I remember him saying

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one time, you can wake up happier, you can wake up miserable, it's your choice. And that's, and then

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he said, you have that privilege, you have that, you have that knowledge over you to to be happier,

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to be sad. And a lot of people are so unhappy today. I say they'd like they're always on the

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wrong side of the bed when they get up. I said, you know what, it's, I wish I would have heard my dad

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tell them, you know, you could be happy, even though you might have some struggles and hard times.

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It's, I feel that I'm happy most of the time, or I would say probably 99% of the time there's

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always a smile on my face or I'm saying good morning to someone and I think I attribute to my

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dad, my mom was a homemaker, she was home. My dad became an entrepreneur at the end of,

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he had a friend of his say, you know what, Ed, my dad's name was Eddie, to go into

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the beauty shop business and my dad was far from, he worked with tools and everything else that way,

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but the guy said that's the up and coming thing and my dad went to, he went to school.

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And even though he didn't do hair, he, he, he had a shop and then my mom helped him too. So

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with that together, they bought a few buildings and he did well for himself at a at a young age.

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And I attribute his entrepreneurship to, for, to making me the person that I am today.

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What about military and first responders? Did you have any in your extended family?

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You know what, I am the only one that has been, that went into the police force. I think my dad

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would be shocked that, that I went into, he passed away at 58 years old. I came into the police

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force at 58 years old. I came into the academy. I took the test at 35 years old, which was kind of

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old to, to be in the, in the academy, but it's something that I've always wanted to do and always

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thought of myself to, as a policeman. My dad had a friend, his name was Phil Onesto and a great guy.

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He was, he was huge. He had huge hands. He was a police officer and he always wore that, the

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police cap and everything else. And I admired him for his service and what he did. He was like a

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gentle giant, but I thought I would like to be like him when I come out to the, if I can make it out

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to the police force. Lucky enough, I took the test at 35, but in Chicago, they don't do anything quick.

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So I didn't come on till I didn't get into the academy till I was 40 years old in the academy.

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I was probably in the best shape I was ever in. I was about 175 pounds. I used to lift weights.

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It was in the best shape I was ever in. And I just am so proud to, when I got that letter saying

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to start the academy on, it was July 5th of 1994. That's my first day of becoming a Chicago police

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officer. So what about school age? You mentioned I've been in great shape at 40 years old. What

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were you playing when you were a child? I love, we had outside, we would play out football outside,

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softball, fast pitching, all that kind of stuff. I enjoyed just being with the neighborhood kids

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and playing out out in front of my house. So I was pretty involved that way. I wasn't great,

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but I wasn't the last guy picked on the team, put it that way. I wasn't the first one picked,

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I wasn't the last one. So I enjoyed being with a lot of the neighborhood kids and

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had a great time. I had a good childhood. No major incidents at all. I respected the police. I

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respected my elders. And all in all, I had a pretty good childhood. And I think that's important

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coming on to the police department where you're not any trauma beforehand. And I think that's

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what a lot of police officers and a lot of convicts, believe it or not, or people that are in jail,

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have a high A score with the detriments they face when they're younger. So I'm glad I was pretty

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much a normal kid. We'll stay on that for a second, because that's a really interesting point that a

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lot of people on here have brought up in the past. And I've heard that a lot of us have a scores of

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six and above and the same in the incarcerated population. And that just puts a lot of us at a

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crossroads. What I've noticed, the difference is that if we are fortunate enough to be able to

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process some of those struggles when we were young, I believe that becomes resilience,

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that becomes strength. But if it's pushed down and buried down, then I think that's how we lose some

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of these very young officers that have only been in uniform for a year because it's that horrendous

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demon that they pushed down from early life that finally reared its head when they put the uniform

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on. I agree. I agree wholeheartedly, especially if some of these younger men and women are going

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into the military. To me, it's like a double whammy, James, that what they're experiencing,

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the military and then going with being the police or first responder, really takes its toll

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eventually on that person. So it's how much they can handle. But I do agree with the resiliency.

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Sometimes they're maybe a little bit better off because they've had such problems when they were

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younger to overcome that. So I agree. I agree with you. Well, speaking of that, obviously,

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when we think of Chicago 100 years ago, we think of Al Capone and basically the horrendous failure

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of alcohol prohibition that we then jumped into doing drugs, the same thing. Right. And then now,

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and we'll get to that, obviously, this defund movement and obviously there's been a down

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take again. But talk to me about Chicago when you were a young boy. Were you safe in your

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neighborhood and what was the kind of crime rate as far as the whole city back then?

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I was pretty. My neighbor was pretty safe. I think it was pretty safe in general.

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I think the time with prohibition and everything in the 20s and 30s, I really believe that the

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government made a mistake with prohibition because they started getting gangs going.

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And that's what started like the mafia and the Kosovo and all that coming through and with the

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gangs. And I believe it's the same thing with the drugs today. I think it was the same thing

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today. In fact, when I first came on, I said they should legalize marijuana and all these other

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drugs and make money off of it through taxes that way, instead of having these thugs on the street.

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And especially like on the south side of Chicago, west side of Chicago, they own the streets over

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there. In fact, they know when the police are coming. They have signals. They know when we're

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coming by. They stop the operation until we're gone. And I think that was a downplay with Chicago,

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especially with not only the alcohol and the prohibition time, but then with the

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drugs coming out later. I think that really ruined a lot of the neighborhoods.

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My neighborhood was pretty safe. In fact, I was just talking to a friend of mine.

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When it got dark, my mom said, when it's dark, come on home. We ate dinner as a family. Today

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there's a lot of families that don't eat. They don't sit down at the same time and eat. You got

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soccer practice, football practice, whatever. They're driving. A lot of families are, a lot

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of the moms are like soccer moms, they're driving all over. No one's having dinner at the same time.

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I remember as a kid, that's what we did. We sat down. It was like 530. My dad came home from

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work. We sat down and ate and then he went to his second job just to provide for us.

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And it's different today. It's so different today that we're not, I don't want to say it's not as

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family oriented it is, but kids are on the phone constantly and there's no communication there.

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Like I think when we were younger, I think communication was good. We had nothing else to

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do but talk and to interact. Today, they're all on the phones. They're not even paying attention to

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anybody else. So I got a real quick story. A friend of mine was driving his two granddaughters

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to school. All right, one in the front seat, one in the back seat. And he's driving them and they're

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on the phone texting. So he says, who are you guys texting so early? He says, they said, we're texting

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each other. Instead of talking in the car, they're texting in the car to each other. He said, put

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those phones away right now. When he told me that, we laughed. It's how things have really changed.

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I shared a video not too long ago on social media and it was a comedian talking about when we were

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younger, there was no such thing as the word mindfulness. He said, because your whole life was

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mindfulness. If you go to the bathroom, you're reading the cleaning bottle and waiting for the

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bus. You're just waiting for the bus. And it was really interesting because it's true. We were

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forced to be bored. We were forced to be with our own thoughts. And now as an adult, I would put my

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hand up and say, I'm guilty of a lot of dead time. I'm reaching for my phone. I have to be very

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deliberate to not pick it up and realize that it's okay just to sit there and think that we have

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created this environment. And even in restaurants, it drives me crazy that you go, not a sports bar,

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but a restaurant and there's televisions everywhere. So even now, if you try and have a dinner with your

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family at a restaurant, you're constantly being distracted by news and baseball games and everything

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else that's in that same room. Right. I have to admit, when I'm with my wife and there's a TV up,

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I'll try to glance at the score here and there, but I'll say, you know what? I'm trying to focus on

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when I'm with her. So I know. How about with your childhood, James, how was yours?

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This is why I try and be very fair because I talk about all the things that are contributing to

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physical health, mental health, and I was extremely fortunate to grow up on a farm in England. So I

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grew up with no cell phones. I mean, this was before even computers, really. We had a computer

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when I was a little bit older, but nothing that you were going to really sit there and play games

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on. But yeah, I was out lambing lambs and feeding ducks and chickens and mucking out stables and

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all that. So I had that built in and we had an orchard and we had meat that we would butcher.

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And so we understood where the food came from. So I'm very, very lucky that my childhood set me up

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for a journey of health and even the bad stuff that happened from a mental health side, there was

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as much good stuff to offset it. I grew up around a big family that we always ate around the table.

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My dad was a healer. He was a veterinary surgeon. So I watched him heal animals. And so there was

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all these elements put together. But I look at these kids now, especially in the cities,

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that they don't have that. They don't have access to playing fields that are free. They don't have

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clean food being grown in their neighborhood. There's a basketball court that may or may not

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be run by a gang and their food's coming from the bodega down the street. So I think it's really

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important when we have this conversation to understand that there's a whole spectrum of

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upbringings and some creating an environment for health and some are absolutely creating

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an environment for ill health. Right. I agree with the processed food and everything else and chips.

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And we never had that. We had some good wholesome food when we were younger eating. And

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I kind of wish we could get back to that. I know it's kind of hard. In fact, we were just talking

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about having blueberries. I haven't had blueberries. Now I'm trying to lose some weight

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and to feel better and not have that processed food. I'm really watching what I'm eating.

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And because I kind of ballooned up to 245 pounds from 175 when I was in the academy

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to 245 when I retired, I was big. And I don't know if I can't blame stress, the whole thing is

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stress, but it's what you eat. And the time you only get a half hour for lunch or dinner,

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you're rushing, put it that way, to eat. And you're eating McDonald's or Burger King or

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whatever, all this processed stuff that's not good for you. So after a week, you're

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not working out like you should because I would say time constraints on the job.

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But I'm not here to make the excuses. I think if you really want to, you can make the time

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to work out how you're doing for your marathon there. And I'm so proud of you. It takes a lot

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of guts. It really does. Yeah, it's miserable so far. I'm not a runner, but we'll get there.

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Well, you're going to get there. I'm telling you. Thank you. Well, I just want to go back to the

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prohibition of drugs for a moment because I think your community's voice is the most important

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voice for us to hear. Obviously, first responders, like myself, firefighters, paramedics, we see,

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in my opinion, the epic failure of the war on drugs, the ripple effect of what this has caused

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and putting the power in the underworld. And we see the homelessness and the gang membership and

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the sex workers and all the things. But I think when police officers who literally their job

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description was to enforce these rules have the most incredible voice when it comes to talking

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about the failure of this or opposing prohibition and pushing towards a more altruistic approach.

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So with that being said, what impact did drug prohibition have on a lot of the crimes that

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you witnessed as a police officer? Well, again, as you said, it's a ripple effect. And just to

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say that prostitute that you may come into contact with on the street and she's buying from a drug

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dealer or somebody's watching over her, she's buying from a drug dealer or somebody's watching

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over her to collect money. It's a ripple effect and it's a detriment to them. It's not a positive

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thing. And I think if getting away from that, it's kind of hard to do. It's like a catch 22.

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If you can break away from that cycle of hardship or of addiction, I think that's a good thing.

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Get away from the bad element. Just as you know, 95% of people are good. And it's that 5% that are

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bad that caused like 85% of the, I don't want to say cruelty in the world, but the harshness in the

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world. If we can get away from that and more people go the wrong way, I think that's a good

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way to do it. You want to do the right way and help those people that are going the wrong way

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to become better, to break away. But they've got to want to do it just like anything. You want to

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do something special. You want to do this podcast. You want to be a better person. It's that want.

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It's that drive that we need to put more to help people become more successful in what they do.

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The worst time because it started gains and the drugs, it just sent that out of control.

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You can put these people away in jail and then what happens? Even the jail is populated with

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gangs and everything else too. So are you really helping them? Are you giving them a service?

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Or are you taking that, again, they're spending their time in jail or prison or whatever.

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What are they doing? They're just learning how to be worse than when they went in.

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So I think we really need to give them a skill or give people an opportunity to become something.

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We got too many young people and they're on this. I tell you with Chicago, you drive in

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Chicago and some of the neighborhoods, you got 20, 30, 40 guys on the corner doing absolutely

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nothing. And they're selling drugs, they're making the money and that's their way of life.

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I talked to one young man and because I would do with the police department, I did the great

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program, which was gang resistance education and training and dare about drugs. And I talked to

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this one young man. He said, I really, you know what? I don't need this because by 18 years old,

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I'll be dead already. That's their mentality. That's their thoughts that they're not going to

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live much longer. So might as well enjoy what I have. It's totally wrong, personally.

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Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I had a gentleman, Zhao Gu Lao, who is one of the people in Portugal

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that spearheaded the decriminalization of addiction in Portugal. So they still lock up,

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you know, smugglers and dealers, but the addicts, if you're caught with the user's amount,

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they're not even arrested. They're literally brought into an interview and educated on all

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the resources that are available. And in this case, they put a lot of money into addiction

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counseling, mental health counseling, job creation, housing. And so just like our food,

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you know, environment right now, you know, prohibition has created the bodega with the

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gang riddled basketball court. What Portugal has done is created the farm with all the food on it.

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You know, so you now create an environment where you're taking away the guilt and stigma of being

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an addict. You're taking away the fear of a criminal record from being an addict. And so what they saw

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is most people actually voluntarily went to addiction counseling and they got better. Did

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it work for everyone? Of course not. But it worked for most. Right. That gives you the opportunity to

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do something right. Instead of punishing a person again, I like that word, what they did on that to

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give the person the opportunity to say, I can get better because I think in their mind, they're so

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down anyways. It's like it's hopeless for them. And I think that's what hurts more people is becoming

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hopeless, especially through addiction. It just it takes its toll on everyone. And it could take a

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toll on police officers too, or firemen or whatever. I just I don't want to say police because I was a

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police, but I'm any first responder. And that's why I wrote them. That's why I wrote my book that

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you're in is about first responder suicide. I said it's just police suicide is that it's across the

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board from what we see and what we experience. And that hopelessness is in their life. And that's what

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we need to dissipate and to bring a different light to the subject where they're getting help

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for whatever they need. And to say, it's okay that I get help. We're not punished to get help.

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Like how they're saying they're going to again, fresh food, the farm and everything else,

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but given some of the opportunity, we're giving everybody the opportunity, but they're not taking

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it for fear of getting reprimanded by their department, losing a job, losing their job or

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not getting promoted. There's a lot of factors that police and first responders don't seek the

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help that they need when they should. And that's the problem I see today is that I could talk to

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many first responders and they'll personally confide in me, but they won't go any farther than

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that. They won't go to a psychologist. They won't go to a counselor because of what may,

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what this camaraderie, the people they work with may feel about them if they go seek help,

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especially mental health. I didn't mean to tangent off on that.

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No, absolutely. I love tangents. You came to the right place. But no, I think there's an irony too

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that those in uniform, especially in law enforcement have to enforce addiction laws when

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there's a lot of people wearing those uniforms that are also suffering from addiction.

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Right. Gambling, sex addiction. There's so many addictions out there that again, drinking,

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how about alcoholism? I remember when I came on to the job, we had, I think most cops were,

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what we would do is go to the, not me personally, I don't drink, but when I first came on, it was

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like, come on, we're having a watch party where all these guys were getting, they were getting,

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they were getting drunk and they're back to work the next day and you can still smell the alcohol

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on their breath. So how effective can they be? And they're not, they're not, they're not 100%.

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And I seen that when I first came on the job, that alcoholism played a big role in a lot of

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policemen's lives. And some of these guys with the alcoholism comes a divorce and some of these

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guys were on the third, fourth, fifth marriage. And it's just a different person who they're with

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at the bar or a different person they're going to it after shift or after when they get home.

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So it does affect a person. It really does. Addiction, I think is something that most

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of us, it's something that we need to address. Like how you said, you know, pro activists that

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are a reactive type of issue. So.

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100%.

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I agree with you, James. I agree 100% with you.

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Well, this is what's so amazing. I speak to so many people who are just there on the streets,

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whether it's here, whether it's overseas and you know, you get such a different conversation

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than what you see in your television, because what you see in your television, there's,

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you know, there are people pulling strings behind the behind the curtain. But when you

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ask the actual men and women that are in the trenches, you know, more often than not, you

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get a very different response, a very real response. So voices like yours are important,

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especially the generation that you came from. You came from one where we weren't having this

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conversation, you know, 20, 30 years ago.

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Right. No one talked about addiction before. No one talked about, you know, having the issues

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that they did. I just think that when you're like as a policeman out there, in fact, dealing

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with some of the the people that were addicted, you could you can understand their plight,

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especially when you're, I want to say arresting them or talking to them that they've had a

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they've had a real tough life. And, you know, why make it tougher on them? I can't tell how

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many people that we have, my partner and I have we tried to give them some help or give

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them some options instead of arresting them and saying, hey, why give you more problems?

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This is what you should do if you can. But just like anything, and I think you know this,

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a lot of people are addicted may go back to that way if if again, that that struggle is not met

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or that struggle is not that struggle is always there in the back of their mind.

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So if they could get past that, again, I'm always optimistic. I always see that silver lining

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behind someone that may that may not deserve it. But to give that person the chance, I think is so

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important. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned about not actually going to the academy till 40. So

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what professions were you in prior to that? And then what made you decide on law enforcement?

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James. Oh, boy. Well, I went to Loyola University and I was I was my third year there. And I had a

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philosophy class. And I said, what am I doing here? This is crazy. I'm not I felt I was like

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spinning my wheels going to Loyola. It was a good school. I was I should have personally, I think I

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should have went away to school. But that's another story. So I was I said to my dad, I said, Dad, I

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got to do something. And I said, I'm not happy at school. I don't want to go back. I know you're

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spending a lot of money from you know, from both my mom and dad. So I saw how well my dad was doing.

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So I said, you know what, maybe I'll go into becoming a barber. So that's what I did. I went

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from Loyola University and biology to going to barber school. So I did. And so I became a barber

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for a while. And it was good living. Me, my, my dad opened up another we had three shops going my

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dad, my my dad got one for myself, and my mom. And I was I was cut here for a while. And I enjoyed it.

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I really did. But I think there was one day a gentleman that I cut here had a jewelry store.

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And that's how that's how I'm the spur of the moment I am. He had a jury says, Listen, I'd like

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to sell my story if you know anybody who would like to buy it. I said, Maybe I would. So because my

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my, my wife at the time worked for a jeweler. And my sister worked at a jewelry store too. So

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I saw what they were doing. I said, How many heads of hair can I cut a day? You know, 101520.

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I'm limited to what I can do. I said, Plus, I was starting out. I said, Let me try to do something

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else that I really would like to do. And that's what I brought to the story. And then I opened

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up a second one. My dad passed away. And then long story short, I got the I was got divorced.

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And I was looking for something to do. And that's when I said, You know what, I really wanted to be

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a cop. I remember this fellow nestle and I said, I really would like to try to be a police officer.

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So that's what I did. I went again, I took the test 30. I think there was 38,000 guys I took

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and girls that took the test. So it was like one out of 18. They take only 2000, I think 36,000.

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So one at 18 to become a cop. And because he only took the 2000. When I saw these people taking the

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test, I said, I think I had a chance but I did did well stored well. And I was able to the struggle

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police has a program where once you're past your probation, you can go back to school. So I finished

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my degree, my bachelor's degree and I was a scholar of the university for Lewis University.

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And then I, I saw that at graduation, I saw them with the master's program where they were getting

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hooded. So I says, you know what, if I can still keep continuing my education, that's what I was

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going to do. And two years later, I'm getting hooded with my master's. And I said, God, I'm

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really a fortunate person here to have my master's degree in the cities paying for it. Because if you

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get an A, they pay 100%. If you get a B to an F, well, B to a D, they pay 75% F, they don't pay

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anything. So it gives you the incentive to do well. So with that, I after my master's, I said, you

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know what, I'm going to try for my doctorate degree. And five years later, it took a long time. The

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city paid for me. I remember them. The last check they wrote for my doctor, I think was $48,000.

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One of the last checks they wrote quite a bit with that. But I had to stay on two years later.

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So I said, well, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to finish my doctorate. There was times I

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wanted to quit, though it was not easy. But especially working and trying to fit everything

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in with my family. And, you know, at that time, I got remarried. And to finish everything off,

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it was it was kind of difficult, but I was able to do that. And then I just started writing. So

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that's among my as you know, I'm on my six book right now. So I'm very proud. I'm very proud.

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What was your doctorate in?

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My doctor is in organizational leadership. From I went to Argosy University, my master's is in

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organizational leadership. My whole goal with the Chicago Police Department was to move up

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in rank. So I was a patrolman. And with my with my degree, I was hoping to make sergeant because

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you got to make the first the first move as sergeant without that. You really can't move up

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unless for some there was only one person that I know of that went from patrolman to like a

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commander only because of the he knew the mayor real close and the mayor put him up that way.

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It was what are you going to do? I mean, I didn't know any I didn't have any political

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pool behind me at all. Like most people do in Chicago, you never know that you always have a guy,

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but I didn't. And I figure with my all my awards that I had from the police department to with my

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with my doctorate degree, I would I would like to move on to become a sergeant, which never happened,

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because after a while when you get too old, then you have to look at retirement because we only

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keep till 63 years old. So that 61 I retired in 2015 as a patrolman. I was happy. I had a nice had

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a good career ended up on Michigan Avenue was I was a foot a foot officer on Michigan Avenue, which

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was excellent, an excellent job. A lot of guys are in the 18th and 19th grade. And I was a

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18th district where I was long for that job. But I was I was fortunate to to be there with the with

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the Chicago police. I was a speaker with the police department for 13 years, which I seen a lot. I was

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able to help out in the community about becoming helping them becoming working with the police and

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like it through the caps office. We have caps is it Chicago alternative policing strategy

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is where you work with the you work not only as a with the police working with the community

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and making it safer and making it better. So we did a lot of promotion that way of working

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with the police officers and helping them doing a better job in the community, working with the

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police, maybe giving them, you know, telling them where a drug house may be or where something

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may happen that was not good. So I really enjoyed my career with the Chicago Police Department.

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They were very good to me and I love being the Chicago police.

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When you first entered at 40 years old after living in a neighborhood that you felt safe as

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as a child, what was some of the kind of jarring elements? What was some of the calls or areas

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that you started to work in where you saw the other side of Chicago?

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Oh, my God, I think you don't realize the domestics that are out there. People arguing

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women being beaten. I think that really shocked me. My dad was my dad never hit my mom. They rarely,

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rarely argued. You didn't see that. Now, all of a sudden, you're going to domestic calls almost

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every day, seeing some of the poverty that it's out there that you really don't see.

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The gang life that's out there and how how some of these young kids are really

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entrenched in the gang. And I mean, it's it's like follow the leader and they're

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they don't know anything about the leader that it's not good. And it's it's it's like almost

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being in the mafia. You really can't get out of it. It's unless you're you can't just quit.

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You're not going to have, you know, I'm going to quit, quit a gang. It's either you go to go to jail

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or you die. And most of the time, it's they're they're so young at dying. We are still having

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a big issue with drive by shootings in Chicago. In fact, when you turn on the TV, you can hear,

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you know, it's not it's not like you that oh, my moment like oh, oh, my moment.

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Like, oh, boy, I can't believe we had a shooting. It's like, I can't believe we only had 10 shot

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yesterday. I mean, come on. That's that's it's crazy. I think when you come from that kind of

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a background where I came from and then experience everything as a police officer, it does change

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you in a way that I think it makes you a little harder. You see where people are not as honest

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with you. They do happen. They'll lie to you more. They're a little more deceiving. But again,

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it's the person that you are in to to work through that. And I think it, you know, looking deep down

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inside and saying, you know what, can I if I could help you in some way, this is what we need to do.

368
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Let's do the positive thing is to go through the negative thing each time.

369
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,160
I think this is what's sad when we have these horrendous shootings in schools. Obviously,

370
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,120
they make national news, but the number of children that are killed on our streets, you know,

371
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,600
that weren't in a school, but they're in a gang and they're in their teens. And it gets almost

372
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,320
no airplay. And it feeds again to what we talked about with the empowerment of the underworld through

373
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,800
prohibition. And what really irks me is you hear people say, oh, well, it's because of the broken

374
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,000
homes. And no one's saying, well, why are there broken homes? Well, if you know, you're in a

375
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,880
broken homes, well, if you know, your dad was in the gang culture and he or she may or may not have

376
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,960
been an addict or may or may not have been killed or may or may not have been incarcerated, or the

377
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,840
mother, this is the cycle that you're going to see. And you and I have seen these households where

378
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,400
you walk in and you go, these kids have no chance unless some incredible mentor happens to walk into

379
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,200
their life, a football coach or a firefighter or a cop or, you know, a history teacher, whoever it is

380
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,160
that they actually are able to get through to them. They are going to follow the exact same cycle as

381
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:41,360
the parent and maybe the grandparent. Right. I agree, James, the whole thing. You're in with

382
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,160
your environment. To me, it's like you hang around drunks all the time or alcoholics are going to

383
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:52,400
become an alcoholic or go through that period. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think, again,

384
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:59,200
Mr. When I said previously with that catch 22, you're you're you're stuck. You just keep evolving

385
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:06,000
around that circle. And if you can break out of that to better yourself, that's the only way

386
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,960
someone's going to to do it. If not, you're going to be that cycle is going to repeat over and over

387
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:17,040
again each time. So that's what we need to change. So I want to get to the kind of mental health

388
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,760
journey. But before we do, let's talk about the community policing role that you held. I think

389
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,640
there are so many opportunities to educate the public on what we do. And the fire service has

390
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,920
done a horrendous job, especially where we do fire and EMS together. We have done a terrible job.

391
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:37,200
You think that we sit around playing cards, petting the Dalmatian and getting cats out of trees when

392
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,680
actually we're out dealing with everything that we talked about. And then obviously with the

393
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,120
policing, you know, again, you've got this now this rhetoric where it's not just they don't know

394
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,600
about what we do like the fire service, but they're actually being told to hate us like the

395
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,840
law enforcement side. So what were you able to do in that that community policing role and that

396
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:06,880
kind of crime prevention area that you were in? I was so fortunate, James, to be selected to go

397
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:14,720
into the speaking unit that we had. We I really feel we made a difference. We would go talk to

398
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:22,080
senior community. We would talk to at these meetings that they would have at different

399
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:29,520
districts where the community would come. And I did bank teller training, landlord tenant training.

400
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:36,960
We were all into about training, about getting the resources that they need to to have a better

401
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:46,880
life. I actually did. I was fortunate to the unit that I was in. We actually did things to

402
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,080
stop burglary in the area where we actually would have. I started with another officer that

403
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,520
these are burglars that wanted to.

404
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:11,840
They wanted to go on a better path and do the right thing. And they actually we actually had

405
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:18,640
a burglary seminar where I spoke about burglary, about locks, doors, and that I would actually

406
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:25,440
come to their house and do a security survey for them free of charge and let them know, hey,

407
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:33,760
you've got this door is not good or these locks are not safe or you got a brick in your house that

408
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,200
they could use to break your window or whatever. We would do that free of charge. But with these

409
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,920
burglars, what happened was we would have maybe 20 people at a seminar. The next time we said we

410
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:51,040
were going to go and we had 40, the next time we had 80, I mean, it was a lot of people. We had

411
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,520
the next time we said we were going to go and we had 40, the next time we had 80. I mean, it was

412
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:05,680
just it kept growing. And they actually said how they approached a home or an apartment building

413
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:11,680
and what they did so they could help these people that we were at the seminar to really learn

414
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:21,360
firsthand from them what they could actually do to not have their home burglarized. So I think

415
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:27,120
the CAPS meetings that we had were beneficial about bringing information that they may never

416
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:33,120
have had before. And just say like the bank teller training, we would actually go to banks

417
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:40,880
working with the feds, the federal government, and showing them statistics, how to handle a

418
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:47,520
situation. If a burglar did or if somebody came in to rob the bank, what they should do, how to

419
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:54,400
describe someone. I'd have them describe me. I'd have them say, hey, everybody, I would walk in the

420
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,440
back of the class, describe me. What, you know, how tall am I? What do I weigh? What am I wearing?

421
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:08,320
So to give them an actual demonstration of, hey, this is what you could look at to help yourself

422
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:14,480
if something did occur. So it was a great thing. I believe they disbanded this unit.

423
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:21,440
When Gary McCarthy came in as superintendent, they disbanded the unit, which I really think

424
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,440
was a mistake. They should have at least kept one or two officers on there. Not that they had to

425
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:33,600
keep me, but one or two officers on there to keep this going. I think it would have been beneficial

426
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:42,240
for the city of Chicago. I think it was a great attribute today. I think it would help in many,

427
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:48,320
many tremendous ways. But again, time goes on and, you know, things change.

428
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:55,360
I think it's important for us to also learn from our mistakes. And I think I'm curious to see what

429
00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:02,800
your answer is to this, but I know in a lot of the US, police fire EMS, I'm sure, is a

430
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,200
little bit different. I'm sure dispatch as well are all struggling with recruitment at the moment.

431
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:13,520
You talked about testing against 36,000 people for 2000 jobs. When I was in California, as they

432
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:21,280
were talking 2005 when I got hired there, it was against 1000 certified firefighter EMTs or medics

433
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:27,600
all with resumes this thick for 30, three zero jobs. So when you were testing, when I was testing,

434
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:35,200
the demand was very high. What is that environment like in Chicago at the moment? We can't get anyone

435
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:44,640
right now. We're so they are promoting it like the never before to get someone to join with the,

436
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,600
I guess, Chicago police or just to become, you know, firefighters or anything else that way.

437
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:56,000
I think they have a little easier time for fire than an EMT and dispatchers than they do for police.

438
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,040
No one wants to be the police because of the chance of getting sued.

439
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:09,280
Everybody has cameras out there. I think the last test that we had, if we had five,

440
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:16,480
600 people take the test, that's a lot. So can you imagine we're losing, we lose about 100 officers

441
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:24,560
a month from attrition, from retirement, from getting hurt. We can't fulfill it. We're not,

442
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:32,000
we're not putting that, we're not putting 100 people in. So now someone has to work harder

443
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:41,760
than they ever had. They might have to take maybe 10 jobs instead of eight jobs or six jobs that

444
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:48,960
they're assigned to dispatch to. So it's, it's, it's, it's hard. And then now these officers,

445
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,600
I keep saying officers, but I'll say first responders because I know fires are the same,

446
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,680
but these officers are working harder than they ever have before. Their days off has been canceled,

447
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:06,720
which is, it's kind of, it's kind of rough or they're mandated to work on their days off or maybe

448
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:13,200
work overtime. Instead of a 10 hour shift. Now I got to work a 12 hour shift. Well, what about,

449
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,000
I'm supposed to go pick up my, my granddaughter from school or not great, or my daughter from school.

450
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:26,000
What about that? Or go to a soccer game or go to a baseball game with them. They can't, they got to

451
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,080
go to, they have to stay at work. So how do you tell your wife or your family? Hey, listen,

452
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:36,640
I can't make it. I, I've got it. I've got to go. I've got to stay. I've got to work late. And that

453
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:42,160
never, that really never happened before. We always had so many cops on the street that if you really

454
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,880
wanted to take a day off, you could just put a slip and say, I need this. I need, you know, Friday

455
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,400
office. Okay. We have the manpower. Go ahead today. They don't have that. They don't have that luxury

456
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:59,280
where guys are working harder than ever with less help than they ever had before. It's not a good

457
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:05,840
situation. James, not a good at all. I don't know how it is for fire. Um, it's similar. I, you know,

458
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,160
everybody wants to be, everybody wants to be a fireman. James, I gotta say, if you want to pick

459
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:17,120
a career fireman or policeman, everybody loves firemen and that the policemen, uh, you can take

460
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,720
it either way, but everybody loves a fireman James. And, you know, I gotta tell you the line for

461
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:31,920
fire to police always is larger for fire. Always. Well, I think what's, what's really important for

462
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:39,440
people to understand is firstly, if you have 36,000 people testing for 2000 jobs, arguably

463
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:45,840
those 2000 are going to be the cream of the crop on paper. You know, if you then have 500 people

464
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:52,240
testing for 500 jobs, you're going to get the cream of the crop, the middle and the shit bags to,

465
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,760
you know, to not beat around the bush. You're going to get the people that are going to be an

466
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:02,480
absolute liability in uniform that we see on, you know, on YouTube all the time now. And then as you

467
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:08,400
are dwindling, which is happening, police fire, EMS, you are not asking, you are forcing, you are

468
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,760
mandating the people that are already in this department to work more and more and more. You

469
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:19,040
are commanding them to be away from their family less and less and less. And not only is that

470
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:26,080
immoral and completely unfair, but also the chances of a good officer now making a mistake

471
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,440
are getting higher and higher and higher because they're so burnt out.

472
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,560
Definitely a hundred percent. A hundred, you hit it right on the nail on the head. Uh, we're getting

473
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:44,240
guys in there that maybe have been in the game or that may have issues that, that shouldn't really

474
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:50,800
be the police. And you, you know, you might be able to get them out psychologically or something

475
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:56,560
that way. But again, we're that the issue is always there. We don't have enough, enough help.

476
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,600
And the guys that again are working, they're struggling out there really are James. They really

477
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,720
are working all these extra hours, not with their family. Again, you ask any, any first

478
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,440
responder who they want to be, where they, what's the most important thing to them? It's, it's their

479
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:17,920
family and they can't spend time with their family. And then when they do, they're tired,

480
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,680
they're worn out. They don't want to, they're, they can't, they want to sleep. They want to,

481
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:29,120
they want to rest because they're not resting like they should. So I agree with you a hundred

482
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,200
percent. We're not getting the best qualified people in there. And I think the same maybe with

483
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,680
fire too. Is that, is that, do you see that happening with fire in EMS?

484
00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:41,600
A hundred percent. I think that the biggest problem with fire, and I've pulled this out of

485
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:48,160
the shadows is we have always kind of allowed such a horrendous work week and it's not quite

486
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,800
as bad in the Northeast. Some of the areas of Northeast work, what I would argue should be the

487
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:59,200
work week, just 42 hours. So 24 72, and you know, that's, you know, around the Boston area, New

488
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:06,320
York, they kind of around that schedule. But the rest of the country works 24 48. So, you know,

489
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:11,440
what you've seen as a devolution, as a cause have gone up and the 911 abuses have gone up. And

490
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,120
again, the lack of support, the organizational betrayal in some areas, you know, you less and

491
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,280
less people want to do the job. So we're just in this absolute recruitment crisis because young

492
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:26,880
people aren't excited about it because they see, you know, like I tell people when I tested 20 plus

493
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,280
years ago, I Google, what's it like to be a firefighter? And it's like, oh, it's awesome.

494
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,200
You get a big mustache and you get cats out of trees and you ride a big fire truck and you're a

495
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,760
hero. You know, now you Google what's it like to be a firefighter. It's like some of that stuff.

496
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,720
But then as you mentioned, divorce, alcoholism, addiction, infidelity, you know, heart attacks,

497
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:49,840
drugs, cancers, you know, all the things. And then they look at the pay and then they look at the

498
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,240
work week. Then they hear about mandatory overtime and these young people are smart and they want to

499
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:58,000
be home with their families. And they're like, that does not sound like a good job. I'm going to go

500
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:05,200
work for UPS. And I totally understand that. So what I think is exciting though, is we have the

501
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,920
opportunity to finally turn this around because the way we've done it obviously is not working,

502
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:16,480
defunding the police or ignoring all the ailments and deaths in the first responder profession by

503
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,840
staying, doing what we're doing is clearly not working. So, you know, each department has the

504
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,520
opportunity to do one of two things, either be at the helm of the ship when it sinks and Chicago

505
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:33,040
doesn't have a police department anymore, or be the leader that turns that ship around and actually

506
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,080
puts proactive incentives, makes people excited to be a police officer or a firefighter again,

507
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:44,080
creates an environment of mental and physical health. And then you get people starting to line

508
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,040
back around the building, just like when you got hired and when I did.

509
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:54,240
Right. I agree. 100% James, I really do. I think that's what we need. I think in Chicago,

510
00:53:54,240 --> 00:54:00,800
we have a good superintendent that just came on, Larry Sinelli. The gentleman we had previously

511
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:07,040
was a puppet. He was not good, but everybody likes our superintendent now. And I think he's

512
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:14,240
going to do a good job of maybe help getting that back again. Hopefully one day we can do that. But

513
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:22,640
I agree 100% of what you're saying. There needs to be a change because it's not going good. And

514
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:29,840
that he fund the police thing. They're defunding us almost now because there's a lot of cops.

515
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,440
There are a lot of people who aren't being the police officers that they should be right now.

516
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,280
And we don't have enough. So that's defunding us now. And look what's happening.

517
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:45,360
Crime is they're saying crime is down. Crime is rampant all over the place. It's it's

518
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:54,400
again, you turn on the TV, I can put the TV on right now and the 12 o'clock news or one o'clock

519
00:54:54,400 --> 00:55:00,240
news will say, you know, eight shot today. I mean, it's it's it's just gets it gets the every day.

520
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:05,360
There's how many shootings and like enough's enough. But that defund the police, it will never

521
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:14,400
work. It just gives it gives the thief or it gives the criminals more, more opportunity to get away

522
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:20,160
with what they do, because there's no one there to hurt them, no one not no one there to supervise

523
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:26,640
or to take them or to arrest them. There's a slap on the hand. We have a we have a state's attorney,

524
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:33,200
Kim Fox. I can't wait till she leaves because she's a detriment to Chicago, detriment to all

525
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:38,720
the citizens of Chicago. She could have a career of criminals, put a slap them on the wrist and

526
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:44,640
they're not even detained. They're out before we are done with the paperwork. That's that's that's

527
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:51,280
crazy. She's not doing her job. I can't again. She's not running for another term. Thank God,

528
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,440
because I don't think we could have another three years or four years. I don't think we could have

529
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:02,320
another three years or four years of her. I really that's my my personal opinion. I think every cop

530
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,440
believes the same thing. We're we're going out there busting our butts to get that person,

531
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:15,120
the criminal in costs and know what she's letting them out. I mean, that's I think that's that's how

532
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:22,560
can you do your job? How can you do your job as a as a as a first responder when whatever you do,

533
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:30,320
it's it's it's it's it's it's it's gone. It's gone. They're they're they're they're doing all the

534
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:35,040
work that you did for nothing. And now after a while, you do it first time, the second time,

535
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,920
the third time. After a while, these cops are going to say, you know what? I'm laying back.

536
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:45,200
I'm just I'm not going to answer. I'll answer the call, but I'm not going to be proactive like how

537
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:51,600
when we used to. You see a guy with a bulge in the side of his pocket. It may be a gun. It may not

538
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,840
be. But hey, let's check him out. Let's be proactive. But not even doing that anymore, James.

539
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:02,000
And I think that's what the problem is. We're not being proactive as police officers as we once were

540
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:08,960
because we're getting slapped in on the on the risk for being that type of officer, being a good

541
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:15,440
officer and being proactive. Now you're getting cops that are reactive. They'll answer the call.

542
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,240
They'll just doing what they're going to do and not go any further than that because they're going

543
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:29,360
to get maybe sued, maybe fired for what purpose, for what purpose? So to what end? So that's that's

544
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:35,120
that's that's what we're facing today that we never faced before. Yes. When I first came on,

545
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:40,240
if you pulled five guys over, we pulled five guys over. Nobody said nobody said a word. We didn't

546
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:46,800
have cameras that on our person that were saying what we were doing. Did some guys get out of hand?

547
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:52,400
I can say some guys maybe abuse their power a little bit. Some guys may or not. They did what

548
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:58,480
they needed to do. But I think it works. Then I think there was more respect for the police

549
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:06,640
than than now. Nobody respects us out there, James. Nobody does. They respect fire, but I don't think

550
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:13,200
they respect the police. And they're always trying to me. It's like you ever see this like a payday.

551
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:18,480
The the the I'm not saying we're always right 100 percent of the time. Don't get me wrong.

552
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,680
It's like that Bell's curve. There's some excellent cops and there's some cops that

553
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:31,520
that should never have been never been on the job. But there's everybody in between. So but it's like

554
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,800
when they tie your hands and you can't do your job, that's that's what the that's what the

555
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:43,760
problem we're facing today. I don't care if you have we get another thousand coppers tomorrow

556
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,720
on the job. If they keep tying our hands, that's going to keep happening. And you're going to have

557
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:59,440
that. I don't know. I don't know. The low morale. You're going to have low morale. And that's what

558
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,440
you're going to have all the time. So that's what that's where I think every department

559
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:11,840
across the nation is experiencing. It's that low morale of the troops and that with mental health,

560
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:20,400
with the long jobs and not sleeping, no family life. It gets to a person. And that's why to me,

561
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:26,000
you're seeing a lot of first responders suicide out there. It could be fire, it could be anybody

562
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:33,360
dispatch police law, anyone in law enforcement. That's what we're seeing is that

563
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,840
the lack of the lack of morale, the lack of leadership, no sleep,

564
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:50,240
more time on working more than ever with little or no resources. It's all a factor. It's all

565
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:55,520
on the shoulders of every first responder that's out there. And a lot of these guys, again,

566
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:02,480
they're at their wits end. They're hopeless. To me, hopelessness is the worst thing because once

567
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:09,760
you're hopeless, anything can happen. That gun looks pretty damn good on that table. And where

568
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:15,760
they make because it's what's different than anybody else in the world. And that's what's

569
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:21,600
they make because it's what's different than anybody else in the world is that they don't

570
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:28,880
have a weapon on their person that they could use immediately to end it all. And sometimes it's a

571
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:35,440
rash decision. They're not, some guys may think about it, may plan. Some guys or girls too,

572
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,920
may not, but that with that loaded gun on there, it's an opportunity and they may not think about

573
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:48,720
it, especially if they have a drink or two, which is a depressant and they're gone. And then it

574
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:54,960
might be a little too late. So. Yeah, I couldn't, I mean, you've hit so many different topics there

575
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:59,520
that I couldn't agree more with. I mean, it's, this is the problem. And I think the talking about

576
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:06,400
being proactive, what I see is that, you know, society just goes the way it goes. And then they

577
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,400
point their fingers at law enforcement and go, you're not doing, you know, you're not policing

578
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:16,880
well enough. No one's saying why are the streets of Chicago so filled with gangs, but the streets

579
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:23,600
of Reykjavik or Oslo or Lisbon aren't. They're people too. What are we doing wrong? That's

580
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:29,440
creating so much crime in the first place in this multi-generational crime. And the proactive side

581
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,760
is, you know, looking at all of these elements, it's not just one, but the prohibition and the

582
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:39,360
mental health crisis. And, you know, of course the access to weapons is part of that conversation.

583
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,760
Doesn't mean you get rid of all guns, but you know, the availability in some areas to pick up

584
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,800
anything, all these different pieces of the puzzle that contribute to this issue. And I think that

585
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:55,760
asking you guys to solve this problem is like asking the EMTs and paramedics to just shut up

586
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,480
and keep running on the increasingly obese population that we have. No one's stopping

587
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:06,160
America from getting fatter and sicker. 70% of the country is obese or overweight. When do you ever

588
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:12,000
hear that? We had a pandemic for two years that your longevity, your survivability was directly

589
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:17,840
correlated to your health. If they're not going to fix it and address it then, then clearly we

590
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,160
understand that the government couldn't care less about preventing crime or making the nation

591
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:27,440
healthier. So this is the problem. It's been put squarely on the shoulders of the first responders

592
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:33,440
rather than these people that are on our television all the fucking time. We've apt in their mouth

593
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:38,000
about, well, when I'm in power, I'm going to do this, this and this, but they're not. Nothing is

594
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:43,360
changing. So this is why, you know, the first responder professions need to be this voice,

595
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,360
because we're the ones that we see it. We're the ones that are away from our families being forced

596
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,920
to do extra shifts because of this massive crisis. And we're the ones that are going to funerals

597
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:56,800
and police officers or firefighters or EMTs or medics who have taken their own lives,

598
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,720
who've been shot in the line of duty, who, you know, got run over or whatever it was.

599
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,560
And again, where's the support then, you know, people that literally are never going to go home

600
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,640
to their family again, because all they did was selflessly serve and it cost them their life.

601
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:14,640
So this, you know, we are at a critical mass nationally and only when people look in the

602
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:19,200
mirror and every single one of us take ownership of our own role in this, are we going to turn this

603
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:26,240
around? I agree, James, I agree. And you hit on the point where politicians, I think they're all

604
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:32,240
in for themselves. And I think I don't know how we strayed off from how we were before.

605
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:38,720
I think maybe becoming more of a liberal society, I don't know. And then you touched on the weight.

606
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:47,760
Again, I'm the prime example. Again, 175 in the academy, I was, I was, I had that perfect

607
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:56,720
lean body. And then at 245 when I got done, I mean, come on, I was, I was pretty big. I've kind of,

608
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:02,240
dropped down to about 220 and all. I mean, I've lost quite a bit, but maybe because of this,

609
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:08,000
not the stress or anything else that way, but my eating has been much better than before.

610
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:13,360
But you ever see sometimes on, you're watching on TV, some of these police officers, they're

611
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:19,680
have, they're, they're bulletproof vest. Their stomachs are way out from their bulletproof

612
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:29,360
vest. I said, come on, just that look alone, give somebody the, you know, again, they don't

613
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:34,880
kind of, they see them. They say, well, I don't know, maybe I won't be a police officer because

614
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:40,560
look, maybe how that's how I'll turn. What I'd like about the Illinois state police is that they

615
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:48,160
have to qualify every year in a running and everything else. And the weight, they have to

616
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:53,200
maintain their weight, which when you see a state trooper, they have that respect. They have that,

617
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:58,480
you know, look to them as a lot of, I'm not downing my, my fellow guys from Chicago, believe me,

618
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:05,040
I'm not, but a lot of these guys, they don't look respectful when they're that big and,

619
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:12,640
uh, uh, or overweight that way. So I think I, in fact, I, I always thought about if they could do

620
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:19,680
something, well, maybe have a test once a year, so to keep these guys from getting heavy. That's

621
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:24,400
what I thought when I, I think it would have been good for me. I would have kept, uh, balanced my

622
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:30,800
weight a little bit better, um, and be a better person that way. But again, as anything things

623
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:37,040
change. So I've had this conversation with many people, obviously people in uniform, people that

624
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:41,520
are strength and conditioning coaches for, you know, major football teams, baseball teams,

625
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:46,160
I mean, all the things. Um, and you know, the, the, the thing is if we're going to do this,

626
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:49,680
we've got to do it from both sides. If you're going to ask a first responder to maintain their

627
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,880
fitness, then you've got to give them the environment that gives them rest and recovery

628
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:57,440
as well, because sleep deprivation creates weight gain and high blood pressure and all the things.

629
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:02,240
But I also agree with the standards. And if we fix the work environment, that standard needs to be

630
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:06,800
put back up because what I, I'm just about to release one of my friends, he's been on a couple

631
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:11,840
of times, he's an ocean lifeguard, he was in New Jersey and he was in Ohio, excuse me, Ohio,

632
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:17,920
in Hawaii. And if you think about it, if you go to the ocean, you never see a fat lifeguard,

633
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,560
you know, that wouldn't, that wouldn't fly the lifeguard just kind of floated and never got to

634
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:27,280
the kid that was drowning. You know what I mean? So if that profession can own their lifeguard,

635
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,600
their national fitness standards and their requirements, why is it that police and fire

636
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:36,480
constantly reject it and fight it, which a lot of our administrations and unions do actively?

637
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:43,920
Right. I wish they wouldn't. I wish they would. I mean, if just say the union, if they really

638
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:50,800
cared about their guys, not just monetarily, but that way, I think they would help initiate something

639
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:57,440
where we're healthy. Cause again, we're dying of cancer, we're dying of obesity, sugar diabetes.

640
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:04,800
It just, it's, it's just up there. And I think it's, I don't want to just say it's just from the job.

641
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:09,600
I think it's just think the job itself and everything and involved with it. The eating,

642
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:16,880
I just, I just think it should be all the way around, brought to the table and say, hey, this

643
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:22,320
is what we need to do for our guys and let's, let's do it for them. That it's, it, it'll go

644
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:32,080
be able to retire healthy instead of, you know, how many guys, how many guys retired in a year,

645
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:36,480
year or two into retirement, they're already dead, you know? So that's, that's something we've been

646
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:42,880
dealing with James. So absolutely. Well, I want to get to your mental health journey. We talked

647
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,720
before I hit record and you mentioned the little girl named Maria. So kind of walk me through,

648
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:52,320
you know, when you first entered the force and then when was that kind of downward spiral and

649
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:58,800
where did you find yourself at the lowest point? Well, let me tell you, it was, I seen with in

650
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:05,920
Chicago, my first four years on, I was in the ninth district in the city of Chicago. It's by

651
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:14,880
White Sox park. It's, there's Bridgeport area. There's the back of the yards area. And then

652
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:24,880
there's also, again, the south area near, it's not the best. There's some good parts of the area,

653
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:31,920
some bad parts of the area. So, I mean, I seen quite a bit of death at a young, at again, that

654
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:37,760
I never seen before when I was younger, then all of a sudden I'm experiencing stabbing shootings,

655
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:47,120
homicides, drive-bys, whatever it was. But it didn't bother me. It bothered me, but it didn't,

656
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:55,280
if I could be to say that. But what really bothered me was one day I, in fact, it wasn't even our call.

657
01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:02,320
My partner and I were getting gas for our squad car and it was in nine, I was, we were beat 924.

658
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:09,520
They were 922s beat, got called and it was a person shot with a gun. Nothing unusual

659
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:15,440
that you would, that you would, and then we would think person shot with a gun. You may,

660
01:09:15,440 --> 01:09:20,560
it could have been shot in the arm, got shot in the leg, nothing specific. We were two blocks away.

661
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:26,400
So my, my, my regular partner and I, Dave, and I said, Dave, I said, let's, let's, let's go on

662
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:33,200
this one. And we were the first one there. The 922 came, but we were, we beat everybody. We went

663
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:38,560
lights and siren. We were again, two blocks away. We were there in a matter of minutes, not even

664
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:45,680
less than a minute walked in. There was a little girl. Uh, there was, it must've had a party going

665
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,080
on. I remember the house vividly. I remember the street. I can't go down the street anymore.

666
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:56,240
I, I, I don't go down the wood street. That's where it was. And, uh, a little girl about four

667
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:02,800
years old. All I could see was all these people around. Uh, but this little girl was four years

668
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:11,040
old shot in the eye. Uh, she was shot in her right eye, uh, blood oozing out of it. And I have,

669
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:16,240
I have three daughters from my previous marriage. So the first thing I thought was about for my

670
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:24,400
little girls. And, uh, my youngest was about near that age and, um, all I could picture was this

671
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,000
little girl that I'm with helpless. I'm helpless, James. I couldn't do anything.

672
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:34,160
And, uh, so I got on the radio and I said, squad, give me an ambulance. And now it's a little girl

673
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:41,520
shot, shot in the eye. Um, I didn't want to, I, my, my first instinct was to grab her, go in my squad

674
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:46,960
car and my partner and I drive to the hospital, but I didn't want to harm her any more than she

675
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:54,640
was. I didn't know how bad, you know, that, how, how serious this was. So what we did, we, the

676
01:10:54,640 --> 01:11:00,560
ambulance came there 30 seconds. James felt like 30 minutes or 30 days. It just seemed forever.

677
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:08,560
I still get choked up by this. So

678
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:19,520
the ambulance came, they took her and my partner and I, uh, rode behind the, we took the mom with

679
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:28,160
us. The father, what happened was that they were, they were burglarized a week previous to when we

680
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:33,600
got there. And the father said, we need a gun. We need a gun for protection, which is the farthest.

681
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:38,400
I don't, I'm not a big gun person. I don't really believe someone needs a gun to protect their home,

682
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:44,480
especially when most burglaries occurred during the day. So the mother said, the stepmother said,

683
01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:50,800
we don't need a gun. He went to work that night, I guess, obviously bought a gun from somebody that

684
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,920
he works with or whatever, but he bought a gun. He took it home and they had a drop ceiling in

685
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:02,080
their house. So what he did is he put it in the drop ceiling. He never told the kids and they had

686
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:08,240
the daughter Maria's four and there was a young, the brother was a nine years old or so. He never

687
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:14,400
told the kids that this was a real car. So that day, what he did is he took the gun down for some

688
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:19,920
reason. I don't know if he cleaned it, if he loaded it, whatever, but he left it on the dresser.

689
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:25,280
And the young boy, the nine year old boy picks up the gun, not realizing it's a real gun, pulls the

690
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:31,600
trigger and shoots his sister in the eye. That's how that scenario would happen. So we have the

691
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:36,800
stepmom in the car. She's telling us all this, so what was happening, we went to Cook County

692
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:42,480
hospital. It's probably, it's a free hospital, but it's one of the best hospitals if somebody ever

693
01:12:42,480 --> 01:12:48,640
got shot, that Northwestern University, because they deal with so many shootings all the time.

694
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:56,480
So the doctor, we had to go into the emergency room to get the doctor's information and find out

695
01:12:56,480 --> 01:13:01,920
how Maria was. And we were with the family. They must have had some kind of a party there,

696
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:09,120
but they arrested the dad while we were at the hospital for possessing a gun and endangering the

697
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:21,600
life of a child. But the doctor came out, I can remember that looking at the x-ray just seemed so

698
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:26,480
big to me, James, you know, the x-ray, you know, just of an x-ray, but it just seemed like it was

699
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:34,480
so big, obscene of the babies of Maria's head. And the doctor came and he was kind of choked up and

700
01:13:34,480 --> 01:13:41,760
choked up and he said, officer, he said, this baby's not gonna, I don't think it's gonna make it.

701
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:48,000
I said, well, you can see the path of the bullet through the baby's eye into the baby's skull,

702
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:57,120
down into her brainstem. And he said, we can't operate. And if he said, even if we were, he said,

703
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:03,680
this baby won't be able to hear, to see, to think, to smell, to walk, to talk. This baby would be

704
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:08,880
brain dead, this baby is brain dead, but the baby wouldn't be able to function as a normal person

705
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:16,640
if she would be able to live. And she has a one in a million chance of living. So they decided to

706
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:22,080
put her on a ventilator and hold her there. And you could just see the blood coming out of the bandages.

707
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:31,280
Still could picture it. So they tried to get hold of the father to see if they can donate the

708
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:39,520
baby's organs to save someone else. And he refused to do anything. I guess the next day,

709
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:45,440
you know what, James, that's what bothers me is that when we got back, we were, this was like

710
01:14:45,440 --> 01:14:51,120
six o'clock on a Sunday that this happened. We didn't get back to the, we didn't get back to the,

711
01:14:54,560 --> 01:15:00,160
to the district, probably about one or two in the morning. And the lieutenant didn't say, hey,

712
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:06,720
I know what happened. Are you okay? Are you guys all right? Nobody asked anything how we were

713
01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:12,640
personally, you know, with us. And I think that's what bothers the most is that

714
01:15:13,440 --> 01:15:18,640
you're, it's being that, that hard guy and being that tough guy all the time. And

715
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:26,560
so the next, the next day I went home, I wasn't able to sleep at all. I was, I was up the whole

716
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:30,880
night. And then just like we talked about earlier, when you have sleep deprivation,

717
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:37,520
it just, you don't sleep and you're not, you're, you can't, you can't function right. You can't act,

718
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:43,520
you don't act right. And that's what happened. That's, that's what kind of progressed with me.

719
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:50,080
The next day when we went to work at four o'clock, we were on a four to midnight. And the next day

720
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:58,160
at four o'clock, the, the watch commander said, Hey, Ron and Dave, they want you back at the,

721
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:03,360
at the hospital. They're going to pull the plug and they, the family insisted you guys be there.

722
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:11,680
We lived the whole thing all over. So the next couple of weeks, again, I didn't sleep good. The

723
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:17,600
baby did pass away. Maria passed and I felt bad for her brother. I always wondered whatever happened

724
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:24,640
to him, never found out. They did save other children's organs. I mean, one positive thing

725
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:30,720
was that they were able to save some other children that needed the organs. But the bad thing is that

726
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:38,000
I kind of went to a spiral of not sleeping. And I never, in Chicago, when you have a complaint

727
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,480
against you, it's called a CR number. I never had a CR number. I was always that good cop.

728
01:16:42,480 --> 01:16:47,120
You know, when you have a good cop, bad cop, I was a good guy. Always. I thought anyway,

729
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:51,920
I had that happy go lucky spirit and I was positive with everyone. But

730
01:16:55,600 --> 01:17:01,200
I started getting CR numbers. I started being, being that cop that I didn't, I knew I wasn't

731
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:10,640
that cop. I wasn't that guy, especially verbal, a lot of verbal stuff, verbal abuse to, to citizens

732
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:17,600
that there wasn't me. Again, from going from no CR numbers, I was getting two, three, four a week.

733
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:22,000
And it was like, nobody came up and said, hey, Ron, something wrong here. I mean, this is not you.

734
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:27,760
I finally said I needed to get some help. I needed to talk to somebody about this. And,

735
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:34,240
which was kind of unusual because nobody and, but nobody, every, every older cops had brought,

736
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:38,960
just suck it up, man. Just suck it up. This is what you signed up for. Suck it up. I was so

737
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:48,720
tired of hearing you suck it up that it was like, it was always there. I finally went to go to our

738
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:56,320
EAP office. I looked like the Unabomber. I had, I had a cap on, I had a hoodie on, I parked three

739
01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:00,560
blocks away. I don't want anybody to know that, hey, Ron Rufo needed to go talk to somebody.

740
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:07,120
Well, she was wonderful. She understood what I was going through. Even though she wasn't

741
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:13,520
an, ever a policeman, but she didn't understand, helped me out tremendously. And that's when I

742
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:20,320
realized, I said, you know what, how many cops are suffering and can't admit that there's a problem

743
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:25,760
and they need to talk to someone. So that's, that's what happened to me. And that's why I

744
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:32,080
started to write and to follow through about with mental health and mental, mental well,

745
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:37,280
mental wellness and to get coppers to do the right thing instead of going down that hole. So.

746
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:43,360
Well, firstly, I mean, thank you for sharing that. I mean, this is, this is what people need to hear,

747
01:18:43,360 --> 01:18:47,600
you know, from all of us, all these, you know, I'm using air quotes, but the kind of alpha

748
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,560
professions, you know, the cops, the firefighters, the SWAT operators, the Navy SEALs and all these

749
01:18:52,560 --> 01:19:00,240
things, because we were all raised in this, you know, fake two dimensional facade of masculinity

750
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:05,840
that was Schwarzenegger and Rambo and, you know, all the, all the things, John Wayne, and that's

751
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:11,840
absolute bullshit. You know, these strong selfless warriors that we have in uniform out there,

752
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:16,800
the ultimate courage is to be vulnerable, is to say, I need help. And I always point this out.

753
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:21,840
If you think of the yin yang, it's this, the kindness and compassion that sends you into

754
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:25,200
uniform. You want to make the world better. You want, you don't want someone to feel the pain that

755
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:28,880
you did when you were younger, for example. And so you become a protector.

756
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:34,400
But the problem is, as the time goes on, we start to think that we're supposed to be a white circle.

757
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:39,600
That's it. And so we lose that kindness and compassion, as you said, sometimes towards the

758
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:46,160
public, but more importantly, towards ourselves. And then that, that kind of falling into the well

759
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:50,800
of identity. Now you spat out the other end, whether you're fired, you've retired, you promoted,

760
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:56,560
whatever it was. And now that loss of tribe is so evident and that loss of identity is so evident.

761
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:03,920
So this is exactly what we need to be talking about. It is absolutely human to simultaneously

762
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:09,440
be an amazing place officer and also be vulnerable enough to accept that, you know, that you're

763
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:18,320
struggling and you need help. Right. And I think more guys are that vulnerable. They need to seek

764
01:20:18,320 --> 01:20:24,240
the help again. They're fighting themselves and getting the help that they need. They really are.

765
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:28,960
So that's, that's what we're, that's what I think we're struggling with today, Jim James.

766
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:37,360
And I think that's what we, that's why I've written the books that I have. So to say it's okay,

767
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:42,240
it's okay to get help. That's the way that's the only way we are to get better. It's okay to get

768
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:49,600
help. Which of the mental health tools began to work for you? Because I think this is about another

769
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:54,560
misnomer is that all there is is meds and talk therapy. And actually, you know, obviously the

770
01:20:54,560 --> 01:21:01,360
toolbox is way more expansive than that from the horses and dogs to retreats and even psychedelics.

771
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:05,600
I mean, all these things now that we're seeing are working, but back then, what were the tools

772
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,240
that you started accumulating that work for you specifically?

773
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:15,680
I gotta tell you, I think it was just being able to talk and to, we talked about a lot of different

774
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:21,360
things, but I, again, what we didn't have the horses and the dogs and everything. Like, like you

775
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:25,200
said, I didn't do anything with medication either. And I don't, I didn't do anything with that.

776
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:32,640
They never suggested it. I never, you know, brought it into as a proponent, but I think

777
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:39,200
just to be able to talk about it and express my feelings about what really happened again, I had

778
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:49,520
EMDR too, and I had that twice. And, but I still, I still catch myself getting choked up on this. I

779
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:55,680
really do. It's still, it still bothers me. I still think about it, but it's better. Put it that way.

780
01:21:55,680 --> 01:22:01,520
I can, I deal, I could deal with it now. At then I just had, I don't know why I think because of my

781
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:08,880
children were around that age. And I think a lot of, a lot of first responders deal with the same

782
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:15,440
thing. If they just say you're on a fire call and somebody's, you're carrying out a child that you're,

783
01:22:15,440 --> 01:22:21,200
you may have a child at home about the same age. A lot of people that I've talked to, and when I'm

784
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:27,760
doing it, when I interviewed other people for the book, I felt that was the same thing that they were

785
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:33,280
dealing with too, the same struggles that they related it to their own children. It seems that

786
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:40,480
a lot of people that got, I mean, again, I handle a lot of death in my early stages of being a police

787
01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:45,680
officer. It didn't bother me as much, but this young girl did. And I think that happens to a lot

788
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:50,720
of first responders when you have, you're dealing with a child. I don't see anybody really getting

789
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:57,360
over that. In fact, that's, 99% of the guys that I interviewed, they were dealing with the same

790
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:02,080
issues that I interviewed in girls. That was the one thing that bothered them the most was dealing

791
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:09,120
with a child's injury or death. And it's out there. It's, it's, it's something that we need to,

792
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:15,280
administration needs to say, Hey, I heard you had this. I think you need to take some time off or

793
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:22,240
let's get some help or let's, let's deal with it right now, instead of letting it sit in the back

794
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:28,480
for who knows long, however long it's going to be same with fire. I mean, you guys go together as a

795
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:33,840
team, you come back as a team. You might be able to talk about it, but some guys don't want to open

796
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:39,600
up to the other guys that, Hey, it's really bothering me. Again, that macho thing, it's just,

797
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:46,960
we need to, to let that go. I don't know what other way to do it, but that being that macho guy is,

798
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:53,680
overall doesn't, doesn't work. No, no, absolutely. I had a call I wrote about in my first book and

799
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:59,440
it was a double fatality. The boyfriend was killed in the front seat and a three year old was

800
01:23:59,440 --> 01:24:03,600
decapitated in the back seat. And I had a two year old friend then who I told, let me say that again,

801
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:09,280
like a just over a year old, actually like a year and a half, but you know, same seat, same position.

802
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:15,280
I mean, all the things, you know, and that didn't haunt me, but that was the one where after I really

803
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:20,800
felt that kind of adrenal dump. And I even had a flashback years later at Disney of all places,

804
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:25,120
someone just pushing a stroller on the same kind of blanket over two little tiny legs with sneakers

805
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:30,800
on. And it took me right back there for a second. But I think there's, you know, there's almost like

806
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:34,080
this facade though, that if we have all these therapies done, that everything is going to go

807
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:39,680
completely away. But I think we've also got to give ourselves some grace. A small child was killed.

808
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:45,600
There should still be some emotional response, just not so much that it's crushing you anymore.

809
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:52,000
Right. I kind of think sometimes she would be, I think she'd be 30 years old now or something.

810
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:58,800
I've always thought she should be, Maria should be about 30 now. And again, I shouldn't think that,

811
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:05,440
but you know, it comes, it comes to my mind every once in a while. And I, with your, with your story

812
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:12,640
too, James, I shared that with in my, in the book coming out. So, um, I, that, that had to be pretty

813
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:17,520
tough for you to handle as well. So I'm right with you in that. Yeah, it was a pretty, pretty

814
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:22,000
horrendous one. Um, it's funny cause we were talking about no one checking in one of the other

815
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:27,920
stories in that book. I had three different fatalities in one day and I had a homeless woman

816
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:32,240
that went missing that I, I went ahead as the medic and found rotten, you know, just bones and

817
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:38,080
rotting flesh, had a GI bleed cardiac arrest that we ran earlier that day. And then a man ran out

818
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:43,360
of a house fully engulfed in flames. And you know, we, we put them out with my, my partners put them

819
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:48,400
out and then we transported them to the hospital three days, three days, sorry, excuse me, three

820
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:55,600
deaths in one day. No one, no one asked us a thing. Are you okay? And if you're okay. Yeah.

821
01:25:55,600 --> 01:26:00,080
Yeah. See, that's what's bad is it. I think administration has to start saying,

822
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:04,320
are my guys okay? And I think if you have a good boss, they're going to be the ones that step up

823
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:10,160
and say, Hey, uh, let's talk a little bit, sit down over here. We need to do that. I think that's what

824
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:17,040
we need to, we need to implement that now, James, not five years from now, not 10 years from now.

825
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:24,000
All the, I think that's why I spoke at, um, at the, uh, the police academy about a year ago

826
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:29,440
and, uh, supervisors, I had, uh, six brand new sergeants that they gave me to talk to them about

827
01:26:29,440 --> 01:26:35,920
the exact same subject. And I said, you need to get, find out what you guys are doing. And if they

828
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:42,320
had something serious, ask you guys, are you okay? You know, simple, are you okay? And don't give me

829
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:48,960
the BS excuse. Yeah, I'm fine. No, are you okay? What happened today? Is there something that I

830
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:55,200
need to know? Um, or even get the family involved a little bit, maybe talk to the wife or the husband,

831
01:26:55,200 --> 01:27:01,120
the spouse or whatever to see is, is your husband been fine? Has he been okay? Or is your girlfriend

832
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:08,160
been okay? Whatever, uh, to see how they're really, are they really okay? And not just that I'm okay

833
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:14,560
thing doesn't, doesn't work with me, you know? So, but we need to, that's what we need to change.

834
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:20,080
James says, I think from the administration down to really care about their, their, their, their

835
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:29,520
guys and girls all the way around, uh, dispatchers, the medics, uh, paramedics, firemen, policemen,

836
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:36,240
all the way down, down the line. Are you okay? 100%. Well, we talked about, you know, if you're

837
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:40,880
able to work through trauma, work through struggles that you can forge resilience. And I truly

838
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:45,360
believe that I think that's what's missing in the, the mental health conversation is that post

839
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:51,600
traumatic growth, you know, that hope of a better version of you on the other side, when you started

840
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:58,800
working through your, your own therapies and then you start writing, did you experience what I hear

841
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,960
from a lot of people, people actually coming out of the woodwork, people that you thought were

842
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:06,800
actually fine telling you actually, I am going through this.

843
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:12,160
You hit right on it. It seems like when you're talking to someone, then they say, Hey, can I

844
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:17,280
tell you what happened to me? I w we weren't even talking about that. We were just saying, let me,

845
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:23,280
let me talk about mental health with it and then say, well, I have a story for you or I'll even

846
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:29,280
ask them, is there something that really bothered you that you never talked about before that you

847
01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:33,600
can tell me about? I won't even put it in the book if you don't want to, if you want to, but I'll

848
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:42,960
tell you about, that's fine. Or just to get it off your chest. And it's some of my interviews

849
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:52,480
normally last anywhere between 10 to 20 minutes, a half hour tops. Some I was on the phone with one

850
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:58,000
or two hours, three hours. I was in peer support. I was a team leader. So I would, they would just

851
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:04,480
keep going and talking and then I would share it. It was some I ran out of juice. I was out of time,

852
01:29:04,480 --> 01:29:10,000
listen, I'm running out of power on my phone. I got to charge. I got to charge up. Never thinking

853
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:16,320
that it was going to last that long, but it was fine. So one thing as well, I don't think is

854
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:20,560
discussed enough. And I talk about this all the time deliberately because I think, you know, the

855
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:26,320
more it's out there, the more hopefully it will reach people. But doing hundreds of interviews now,

856
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:30,800
I'm almost at a thousand interviews total, but hundreds of people that were at crisis point,

857
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,640
some of which actually even went through their suicide attempt and survived, thank God.

858
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:42,240
But I heard the same thing over and over and over again. And it really pushes against that old school

859
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:47,920
mentality of suicide, which is, you know, racked in shame and guilt, which is how could they? It's

860
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:53,200
cowardly, it's selfish. Think of your family. But over and over again, I hear that these men and

861
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:58,400
women were there. We were at that point, their brain was so miswired. And I use that term

862
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:03,600
compassionately by all the things, the combination, the perfect storm of all the things that we've

863
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:10,160
discussed today. That at that point, they truly believe that they are the reason for their family's

864
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:15,840
pain. And if they just took themselves out of the equation, their family would be happy again.

865
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:20,800
Makes no sense to a healthy mind. Makes perfect sense to one in that psychosis at that point.

866
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:24,400
Were you hearing the same kind of thing through all your conversations?

867
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:31,680
No, or you mean, not myself personally, but yeah, I'm a lot of them. Yeah, I'm a lot of them. They

868
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:39,440
did. When I interviewed for the book. Yeah, a lot of them I did. You could tell they were really

869
01:30:39,440 --> 01:30:48,080
hurting. I don't think some even said that, you know, that was a thought and it was a strong thought

870
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:54,400
towards it. Again, you were right when you said they're miswiring and they think that they're

871
01:30:54,400 --> 01:31:01,440
better off, their family is better off without them. But it affects so many people. It's like a bomb

872
01:31:01,440 --> 01:31:07,200
going off that people don't expect. And it's like, oh my God, I can't believe what just happened.

873
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:14,640
It hurts so many people that I don't think, again, the right mind, if someone's miswired,

874
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:21,680
they don't understand that. Like someone that understands like what we are now, that how many

875
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:29,040
people it affects from not only your family, but your first responder family as well and all your

876
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:36,080
friends and everybody else that is acquainted with you, how devastating it could be. But I guess,

877
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:47,840
again, that hopelessness takes over or vulnerability hopelessness is deep and so deep where if someone

878
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:56,160
could take their own life, it's beyond comprehension sometime about what they're actually feeling the

879
01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:59,280
second before they actually take their own life.

880
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:05,440
Well, I think people, if you take a step back and imagine being in that mindset and you also

881
01:32:05,440 --> 01:32:11,280
a part of a profession that is basically sworn that if needed, they will die to protect

882
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:16,080
a complete stranger while we're wearing uniform. And then as you mentioned in law enforcement,

883
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:23,920
you also have the means of suicide strapped to your head. That's just amplifying it. And then I

884
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:27,600
agree with you a thousand percent what you said earlier. I think that's a very important thing

885
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:33,280
to do a thousand percent what you said earlier. I think that semblance of resistance that kind of

886
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:39,440
part of the mind that's still fighting to survive is now quietened by alcohol.

887
01:32:39,440 --> 01:32:43,600
And I say this a lot, it's kind of tongue in cheek, but when you're young and you get drunk,

888
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:47,120
you end up going home with a girl that maybe if you were stone cold sober, you wouldn't have

889
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:53,600
looked at, you know what I mean? Alcohol does dumb us. So, you know, but if you just, I think

890
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:59,760
almost kind of consoling for people who've already lost someone to suicide and there's so much stigma

891
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:04,960
around that, I would argue that if there's, if they're at this point and they truly believe

892
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:09,280
that they are a burden, if you are still with us, obviously that's a huge red flag to get help.

893
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:14,080
If you hear someone saying verbiage like that, it's a huge red flag to step in and try and be help.

894
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:21,040
But the people that we lost at that point, I would say that was a courageous and selfless act and they

895
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:28,000
were probably terrified when they did it. But in that distorted psychosis, that distorted reality,

896
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:32,880
they believe that they were the problem and they sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their

897
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:38,480
family. Now the reality obviously isn't true, but it wasn't selfish and cowardly. I would argue at

898
01:33:38,480 --> 01:33:43,440
that point, it was selfless and courageous, even though it was tragic and should have been avoided.

899
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:48,800
Right. It takes guts. It really does that to actually go through with it. And that's why I

900
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:57,120
think on some of the, like the last year, I think we had six suicides. I think four were,

901
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:02,880
had alcohol in their system. So again, it's a, I'm not saying,

902
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,840
I don't know, it's a contributing factor, but it does play a part, I think too,

903
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:20,640
that someone may not actually do it unless again, it just happens. But I don't, for me,

904
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:25,840
we didn't have a wellness class in the Academy. We did not, now they're starting to have classes

905
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:32,160
in there about wellness, about having family days and everything else and showing everybody

906
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:37,200
that it's okay to get help. But we didn't have that. All we had was, and I don't know, the same

907
01:34:37,200 --> 01:34:43,920
with you, James, but it was all tactics. It was all, you know, how to watch some person's hand.

908
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:50,240
And it's all about different tactics that way, nothing about emotional wellness that we needed.

909
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:54,800
And I think that's again, remember I said, administration has to get on board. That's what

910
01:34:54,800 --> 01:35:00,880
I think is the key. Administration has to change where they never did before. They never said,

911
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:05,600
hey, they're never, I want to put accountability to them. And I think that's the most important

912
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:12,560
thing that we need to do. Make management, make administrations accountable for this,

913
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:20,720
because we're losing more people. I mean, tactical wise, you got to have tactical wise and training,

914
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:25,040
but you need, we're losing more people in suicide than we are on the street.

915
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:31,360
That's the red flag. Something is not right. Something is a misser. And that's every year.

916
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:37,600
It's not like, oh, we had one police shooting and we didn't have any suicides. There was,

917
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:44,960
I think in California, one city that they have psychologists at every district where they're

918
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:52,880
able to talk to them. They didn't have hardly any suicides at all. Now, and look what's happening

919
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:58,960
to us is that you got to have the training for, you know, the combat training, whatever training

920
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:04,400
that you have for, you know, being the police or being fired or whatever, being cautious,

921
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:09,920
but you also have to have that wellness factor in there as well. And I'm so glad that some of these

922
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:15,440
academies are starting to adapt that, that it's make, I think it's going to make it,

923
01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:20,160
hopefully it's going to make a difference, but administration's got to be accepting on that.

924
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:25,440
That's got to be key. If they're not accepting, it's all for nothing. That's my opinion. And to

925
01:36:25,440 --> 01:36:30,800
work with the guy that says, you know, I need some help, not punish them for getting the help that

926
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:37,360
he needs, not being a detriment or not having them, not getting a chance to get promoted,

927
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,720
you know, oh, this guy, he needs help. Well, he's not going to make sergeant. He's not going to make

928
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:50,000
lieutenant or whatever. Let's keep them where we want to underneath our thumb. Not a good idea.

929
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:56,240
So that's personal. That's my personal opinion. But I think, I think that something needs to be

930
01:36:56,240 --> 01:37:01,200
done. Something needs to be changed. James on that. I really do. Yeah, I agree. A hundred percent.

931
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:06,480
I want to hit one more area. We're going to go on a tangent now and then we'll close up, but

932
01:37:06,480 --> 01:37:11,600
you've written other books outside of the mental health conversation and one of them was on sexual

933
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:17,120
predators. That's not a topic that we, we have many discussions on, certainly not someone, you know,

934
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:22,880
you know, with you and then your co-author, as far as experts in the field. So talk to me about that.

935
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:26,560
You know, you mentioned not growing up with technology when you were younger. Now, you know,

936
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:31,360
my son, our children or your grandchildren, you know, are just surrounded by technology. So

937
01:37:32,480 --> 01:37:37,920
as you started diving into this, you know, what were some of the factors that kept being repeated

938
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:44,480
and how is technology making this easier for people to groom our children? My dissertation was on

939
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:54,160
sexual predation, sexual predators and the internet. And I, in fact, I changed, I was going to,

940
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:59,600
my dissertation was going to be on taking a police test and making a better officer. And then I,

941
01:38:00,480 --> 01:38:08,160
I watched to catch a predator on TV and I told my wife, I said, I'm going to ask my chair,

942
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:13,360
I got to change. I said, I couldn't believe how many people were actually coming to

943
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:20,960
a little girl's house or a little boy's house to, to have sex with them, really.

944
01:38:22,160 --> 01:38:26,720
And to get away with it. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So I changed my dissertation

945
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:35,280
topic to sexual predation. And that's, I just continued on when I wrote my first book,

946
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:44,560
my first book was on sexual predators amongst us. And what I seen a lot is that a lot of sexual

947
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:50,960
predators were mostly male, mostly white males live two separate lives. You might have someone that

948
01:38:51,600 --> 01:39:00,000
is a construction worker and he does everything and they come home and watching child porn or

949
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:04,400
doing something that way. So he's living two different lives. You can just say even a police

950
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:11,600
officer out there to help people, but is again, maybe have an association for young girls or

951
01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:16,720
young men or whatever. There's a, they live in two separate lives and people are shocked

952
01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:24,080
when they come out of, Oh my God, I can't believe John's a, they arrested John and they took out

953
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:30,960
all his computer equipment or whatever. It's so easy now to groom. And I think that's the main

954
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:38,080
thing is that some of these sexual predators have a great way of grooming the people that they're

955
01:39:38,080 --> 01:39:42,400
these young children that they're interested in. And they like to go from young children

956
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:49,840
is that they're, they're innocent. They're easy to manipulate. They're easy to take advantage of.

957
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:57,120
And I think that's what I've seen the most is, is a lot of these guys groom, especially with the

958
01:39:57,120 --> 01:40:03,120
internet, with the, this, uh, tick tock and it's all, it's all this other stuff that's out there.

959
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:08,400
They're looking for someone that is coming from a divorced home,

960
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:14,400
because they're already, cause now they got mom and dad fighting. That's, that's pretty,

961
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:23,840
that's pretty prevalent. Someone that's, uh, may have a, a, a, a screen name of sexy 69 or

962
01:40:23,840 --> 01:40:30,240
sexy girl or whatever. Now that they're trying to, they, these young girls don't know what they,

963
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:37,920
they're, they're in a crossroads of trying to be pretty or trying to be, you know, um, uh,

964
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:44,000
just to expound on their femininity, put it that way, uh, that these guys take advantage of that,

965
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:50,880
or they see that and say, you know, I'm, I'm lonely or on this or on that, take advantage from, uh,

966
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:56,720
uh, uh, internet, uh, point of view. So that's what I've seen the most. And that's why I figured,

967
01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:01,760
let me, I wrote the, I figured with my dissertation was like a book. And I said it the next, I said,

968
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:09,760
let me just continue on. And then I wrote another one with, uh, um, another professor. We co-wrote

969
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:17,520
one on, um, one about criminal profiling with a lot of sexual predation in there. So I found a

970
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:25,280
lot of guys have strong moms and weak, weak fathers. It seems like, um, their family dynamics is a

971
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:32,000
little bit different, but again, it could happen to, could be anybody that is a sexual predator.

972
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:37,760
It doesn't have to be a certain way or a certain thing. It could be something that triggered them

973
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:45,360
when they were younger to, uh, to go that way. And I also found, remember I said about the Catch 22,

974
01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:52,640
a lot of these sexual predators were actually victims themselves of sexual predation. And

975
01:41:54,000 --> 01:42:02,880
instead of cutting it out, they're continuing it. So, um, continuing that, that circle of sexual

976
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:10,080
predation. I think there's been some films and shows that have done a massive disservice to

977
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:14,880
the, you know, uh, child predator and obviously the human trafficking conversation. You know,

978
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:20,240
those are the ones where, you know, the special operator is going to Central America and it's all,

979
01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:24,960
you know, kid was thrown in a van and driven away and kind of like that taken thing. When I speak

980
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:30,480
to the real people in human trafficking and this kind of conversation, it's nothing like that.

981
01:42:30,480 --> 01:42:35,600
Does that happen? Yes. But that's, you know, the, the anomaly, not the norm. The norm is

982
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:43,360
the high school teacher or the martial arts coach or the scout master or the church leader.

983
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:48,480
That's gaining trust. It's getting kids away from their parents, you know, creating this little

984
01:42:48,480 --> 01:42:52,480
secret that they have between them. And it's happening right under our nose. And even one of

985
01:42:52,480 --> 01:42:58,000
the guests I have is talking about, you know, these, these, uh, um, apps that you can get now

986
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:01,920
and you look at your kid's phone, it just looks like it's a normal app, but actually it's a fake

987
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:07,520
label on a different chat app that they can groom these kids through. So as parents, you know,

988
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:10,080
it's so important that we understand conversations like this.

989
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:18,400
I'm going to, I'll just mention one thing before we close, but I, I was teaching at two different

990
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:25,280
colleges. I was teaching at, um, tell you what college, uh, I had all officers in my class

991
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:30,720
and that were looking to, uh, you know, to get their bachelor's degree. And then I was teaching

992
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:38,240
at Westwood college where I had all young, uh, uh, students who wanted to go in criminal justice.

993
01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:43,520
Okay. Two different types of class. One were officers. One were just kids wanting to be

994
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:48,880
officers or wanting to fire or whatever, anything in the criminal justice system. Well, I asked

995
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,080
them, I said, I'm going to give you three words. I want you to tell me what you think about.

996
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:58,400
Tell me first thing off your head, write it down. Don't, don't shut the L without write it down.

997
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:05,120
So the first thing I said, the three words are boy scout leader. My class from Westwood college

998
01:44:05,120 --> 01:44:16,240
was all law, uh, criminal justice kids, probably about 80% said good person, father figure wants

999
01:44:16,240 --> 01:44:23,200
to help, wants to be a good person. Everything, you know, uh, you know, excellent job, all that

1000
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:31,360
kind of stuff. Um, probably 10% or 20% said that they were predators. No, I'm sorry.

1001
01:44:34,160 --> 01:44:40,960
That a good person that way. My class, they were all cops. Not one of them said a positive thing,

1002
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:48,880
a sexual predator, not on my watch, all this kind of stuff. So look at the difference,

1003
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:55,840
how somebody just, just, just what they felt being the, being a cop. They had that,

1004
01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:04,080
they have that animosity or that of not, not animosity. That is not a good word. Um,

1005
01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:11,760
they have that feeling that, that of no trust for anybody dealing with children again,

1006
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:17,520
because what we see, what we deal with, um, you, you have a lot of people that are in the dancing

1007
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:24,640
field or that may have ballet or something that why is, why is a 30 year old guy teaching ballet

1008
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:29,520
or whatever? I mean, you, you, these are the things that they're thinking about and wondering

1009
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:37,680
about, um, when it comes to what, how they, how they groom their, their individual because,

1010
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:43,760
or a coach, they have that trust that's there and they use it to their advantage.

1011
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:48,880
Not in a good way. No. And I know loads of people that are Eagle Scouts, sort of phenomenal human

1012
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:53,840
beings that I would trust. I'm not saying you're right. Right. Yeah. You have that right. Not

1013
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:58,880
everybody is that way. Believe me, I'm not, I'm not saying a hundred percent of Boy Scout leaders are,

1014
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:06,240
are, but that's the way police officers, you could have the best Eagles come from the world or this,

1015
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:12,400
uh, Boy Scout leader in the world who has never done anything, but they're not, they're not,

1016
01:46:12,400 --> 01:46:18,960
they're not doing anything with, again, to a police officer, they may have that, oh my God,

1017
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:23,840
I'm not trusting him at all or not with my kid. So, you know, what's interesting too,

1018
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:28,480
and I, I've watched the, uh, Michael, Michael Jackson documentary a few months ago, and I'd

1019
01:46:28,480 --> 01:46:34,400
love to actually get the filmmaker of this because people pick and choose who they consider,

1020
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:38,720
you know, a pedo as well, you know, obviously you've got the people that actually doing it,

1021
01:46:38,720 --> 01:46:42,480
you know, the cancellation and let's take law enforcement, for example, the entire profession

1022
01:46:42,480 --> 01:46:49,600
was canceled by a huge group of people, you know, in 2020, 21, but then you've got a singer who would

1023
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:54,720
invite children into his house. They would sleep in his bedroom and he'd send the parents off for

1024
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:59,760
days at a time, but we're like, ah, but he has one glove and he's really good at dancing. So we know

1025
01:46:59,760 --> 01:47:06,160
he was innocent, you know, so this is what gets me to, there's a real hypocrisy on who people will

1026
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:11,440
ignore that clearly are grooming kids. And Michael Jackson, of course, had a horrendous childhood,

1027
01:47:11,440 --> 01:47:15,200
and I'm sure that's part of the story, but, and you've got these horrendous parents that know

1028
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:19,120
exactly probably what's going on or the dangers of what they're doing, but they're more concerned

1029
01:47:19,120 --> 01:47:24,720
about the money and the fame than they are their child's welfare. But we can't turn a blind eye

1030
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:30,800
because someone is an NFL football coach or, you know, a dancer that can moonwalk. We've got it.

1031
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:35,760
You know, if we're going to actually address this subject, you can't have favorites that are outside

1032
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:42,960
of this box. So I agree. I agree. There are so many different people out there and from what

1033
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:53,360
their motives are and why they, why they chose to do that. It's, it's some factors that, that

1034
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:59,280
came through their life when they were younger, where they actually triggered something in them

1035
01:47:59,280 --> 01:48:07,040
to, to, to fulfill their fantasy, put it that way. Is it wrong? Yes. It's hard. It's harder.

1036
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:16,000
I think we've reached the tip of the iceberg from what's really, really happening out there. So,

1037
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:24,960
I mean, it's so hard to catch them that we could have 10,000 people out there trying to do it and

1038
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:31,760
still not be able to get it because they're that good at, at deceiving everybody and playing that,

1039
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:37,840
that, that second role that, that, that we're two different people and they can go easily back and

1040
01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:45,440
forth in either role. So, um, when no one really believes that who they are. Yeah, absolutely.

1041
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,560
Well, we talked about the other books, your, you know, your most, I guess, red book is, uh,

1042
01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:54,960
breaking, breaking the barriers, um, which is incredible. And that's the one you sent me. So,

1043
01:48:54,960 --> 01:49:00,320
thank you so much for sending that. I hope you like it, James. I do hope you like, enjoy it.

1044
01:49:00,320 --> 01:49:07,840
So, yeah, no, I mean, that's my fourth one. Thank you. I was able to self-publish. I believe my,

1045
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:12,880
and if anybody's going to write books, I believe self-publishing is the way to go. Um, my third,

1046
01:49:12,880 --> 01:49:18,880
fourth and fifth, my fourth, fifth and sixth book are, are going to self-publish. Um, I am so honored

1047
01:49:18,880 --> 01:49:25,200
to be with CRC press for my first three. They, they, uh, went out of their way to, uh, have me

1048
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:30,240
write for them. I appreciate that, but I think self-publishing is the way to go because I could

1049
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:36,560
control, uh, the price on the book. Um, when you have a publisher, they, they determine the price.

1050
01:49:36,560 --> 01:49:41,360
So I really want to help the officers that are out there. So if I want to, if I want to give my book

1051
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:47,200
away, it's up to me. I can do it. Um, the other way they'd have to, that cost them a little bit

1052
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:52,320
of change. So yeah, I just self-published my second one. So I couldn't agree more. I made it, you know,

1053
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:57,280
I didn't sell it to make a profit. I sold it to get the message out there. Two very different things.

1054
01:49:57,280 --> 01:50:02,160
Yeah. I, and we're the same way, James, the same thing. I know I'm not going to get, I'm not going

1055
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:07,760
to get rich on this. I neither want any of them. So I'm, I did it to, to make a difference in

1056
01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:15,200
someone's life again. Um, I hope it does. So, so what is your next book called? You mentioned,

1057
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,520
I know that, that I'd sent you a little bit of a story for, for that as well. So what's the next

1058
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:25,920
one about and what's it called? You're definitely in that one. And I have about, I think 80 other,

1059
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:32,320
uh, interviews in there. It's called first responder suicide is the top of it. I don't

1060
01:50:32,320 --> 01:50:39,920
know if I'm going to keep that and I haven't decided on, um, the secondary title yet. Um,

1061
01:50:39,920 --> 01:50:45,520
but it's going to be on first responder suicide. Definitely. Um, again, I don't know if that's the

1062
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:49,840
exact topic I'm still working on. I mean, the heading, I'm still working on that right now.

1063
01:50:50,480 --> 01:50:58,480
Um, I want it to be, I have my cover already. It's pretty good. Um, but, um, trying to,

1064
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:03,120
to get it where people get actually, oh my God, I want to read this book. So,

1065
01:51:04,160 --> 01:51:09,280
and I'm so proud that you're in it, James. So I'm ecstatic about that. So,

1066
01:51:09,280 --> 01:51:15,120
well, the feeling is mutual. So when is your, uh, publication date or when roughly do you think

1067
01:51:15,120 --> 01:51:20,560
it's going to come out? I got a feeling it's going to be, well, I just sent in my manuscript

1068
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:29,600
to my editor. So I'm looking at probably maybe the end of maybe December, maybe January. The

1069
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:35,920
only thing with January is a lot of weight loss books come out and I don't want to get lost in

1070
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:42,480
that. I don't want to get lost in that frenzy. So maybe in February, I'm thinking it may come out

1071
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:47,120
that way. I'm going to see, it may come out sooner. I don't know. It depends on my editor,

1072
01:51:47,120 --> 01:51:53,120
how well, how fast she can get through it and, uh, and everything. So, but you'll be the first to

1073
01:51:53,120 --> 01:51:58,320
get a copy, James, a signed copy, put it that way. You know that. Thank you so much. So

1074
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:04,640
I appreciate you. I'm so glad that to be on your program, really, um, uh, I know it's been some,

1075
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:10,880
we talk once in a while, so that's a good thing. So, um, and I'm, and I'm proud to be associated

1076
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:15,360
with you. So, well, I want to thank you so much just before I let you go though, where can people

1077
01:52:15,360 --> 01:52:19,680
find the books and then where's the best place to find you as far as websites or social media?

1078
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:32,080
Okay. My, uh, on my, on my email, it's, uh, Ron Ruffo 54 at gmail.com. So that's R O N R U F

1079
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:38,560
like Frank O five four at gmail.com. Um, my books could be on Amazon. Um,

1080
01:52:40,400 --> 01:52:47,520
they, uh, on Amazon, I think is probably the best, best way to get a book. And I, it's those 1795.

1081
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:53,280
If I ever see at a conference, I usually sell them for 15 or if you really need it without anything,

1082
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:58,880
I'll give it to you. So, I mean, I had one girl come up to me. I was at a, at a conference. She said,

1083
01:52:58,880 --> 01:53:02,800
I'd like to get one from my brother, but I really don't have the money. And I says, here,

1084
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:07,440
what's your brother's name? I signed it to her. So here, that's a gift to me for your brother.

1085
01:53:07,440 --> 01:53:13,920
That's why I self published because I can, if I want to give it away, I can. And, uh, if I could,

1086
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:20,320
I hopefully, if I can help her brother, that's the way to go. Uh, but I, I, I enjoy going. In fact,

1087
01:53:20,320 --> 01:53:25,760
I'm being a seminar tomorrow. The gentleman asked the, I'm speaking there tomorrow. He said,

1088
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:30,480
please bring some books. Cause maybe somebody would like to buy a few. I said that'll be fine.

1089
01:53:30,480 --> 01:53:37,120
And I'm stopping at a college tomorrow. Uh, I have a, a friend of mine that, uh, teaches a class on

1090
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:42,000
criminal justice, asked me to bring some books for his class. So, I mean, I get out there,

1091
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:48,400
I try to do the best I can. I'm not, again, I've given more away than I've sold. I'm okay with that.

1092
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:54,560
My wife, she's a little bit calm, but I said, that's me. But, um, if I can help somebody,

1093
01:53:54,560 --> 01:54:00,720
that's the way I, that's the way I, uh, I want to, I want to help someone that is given in my book.

1094
01:54:00,720 --> 01:54:04,160
And if it changes their perspective, that's the whole thing I'm looking for.

1095
01:54:04,880 --> 01:54:10,800
Amazing. Well, I want to thank you so much, not only for obviously the kind of areas that we've

1096
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:15,440
discussed as far as mental health tools and some, you know, some of the things that culturally need

1097
01:54:15,440 --> 01:54:20,560
to change in our professions, but also for your courageous vulnerability and, you know, revisiting

1098
01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:25,120
some of these things that sent you on your own journey. So I want to thank you so, so much for

1099
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:28,720
being so generous with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

1100
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:34,880
Anytime, James, I'm so proud of what you do and how many people that you reach. It's amazing. So

1101
01:54:34,880 --> 01:54:51,680
thank you again. It's an honor to be on your program. So thank you.