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Titoro and Wes Barnett.
Welcome to the Behind the Shield Podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show career firefighters and founders of Tactical Sleep Rescue, Jason Villigante
and Christina Dizon.
Now, it is very rare that you find firefighters that are also well educated and versed in
the world of sleep and sleep deprivation.
So this was an incredible conversation from their respective journeys into the fire service
to the performance impact, the chronic disease and the gamut of tools that we can use to
combat this issue when it comes to sleep deprivation, shift work and its impact on the firefighter.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of over 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Jason Villigante and Christina Dizon.
Enjoy.
Jason and Christina, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
We are so honored, James.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you so much, James.
Looking forward to the conversation for sure.
All right.
Now I know you're sitting in different parts of the country.
Let's start with you, Jason.
Where are we finding you this morning?
I am actually in Orange County today in Newport Beach.
I am working down in Los Angeles and got a day off finally, so yeah, beautiful Orange
County.
So throw that right now.
My son was born in Hogue Hospital in Newport Beach.
Beautiful place.
Oh, was he really?
Oh, nice.
He was indeed.
All right, Christina, what about you?
Where are we finding you?
Today, I am actually in San Francisco.
My husband and I are taking a road trip coming home from Women in Fire that was in San Diego.
So my home, we are slowly making our way back towards Portland, Oregon.
That's a long drive.
It's a long drive.
We have little stops in between to break everything up a little bit.
Brilliant.
Well, I'm honored that both of you are coming on on your vacation.
So let's jump in.
So I want to start with some backstories of both of you.
So Jason, back to you.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings.
Sure.
So I was born in San Francisco, California.
Actually, it's funny Christina is there right now.
I am from a big Italian family.
So I have a brother and a sister, tons of cousins, tons of uncles and aunts.
My whole family are longshoremen and longshorewomen.
And so I come from a very strong union family, very loud family.
Passionate is what we like to call it.
And yeah, just a lot of very opinionated and people that want to let like stand up for
themselves.
So I almost feel like with what we're trying to do, it's you know, you see a problem, you
speak up about a problem.
And I do feel that's kind of rooted in my background.
And yeah, so that's a little bit about me and my family.
There's no resistance in the fire service.
You come up with a good potential solution and they're like, Oh, that sounds amazing.
Let's do that.
Especially the chiefs for sure.
They're very open to all that.
What I've noticed in the fire service and the kind of leather helmet is the kind of
sacrificial goat for this or sacrificial lamb, should I say for this conversation is there's
a muddling between tradition and history.
Tradition in my opinion is courage and selflessness and service.
History is for example, the leather helmet, the 2448 things like that, that worked a long
time ago.
But there are better things that we can actually use to improve performance and health these
days.
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
Couldn't agree more.
We get the only thing firefighters hate more than what things saying the same has changed
that whole little saying so couldn't agree more.
Absolutely.
And with the helmet thing, I get pushback.
I'm like, Can you imagine if the Navy SEALs still wore tin helmets?
Right, right.
Or if the football players with the leather helmets, right?
Exactly.
Or the hockey players with no helmets and no face mask.
All right.
Well, I want to stay with you for a second.
Longshoremen educate me on that entire profession.
Okay, so this is this goes back to man.
This is so it's one of the most powerful unions in our country.
If you're not familiar with it, it's essentially it's unloading cargo from ships onto tractor
trailers.
There's giant cranes when you drive around major metropolitan cities.
And so there's all kinds of different jobs that longshoremen do.
I'm actually kind of casual right now.
So I'm not a steady longshoreman.
It's what I do when I'm off duty.
But you can go from doing something they call what is lashing.
So you get a metal rod and untie the the container ship containers that are stacked to helping
guide the tractor trailers around the dock.
So there's a lot of unique types of jobs.
I've even also was a I had a it's called a shoveler.
You go to get sugar brown sugar, the CNA sugar I'm sure you guys are aware of.
And you literally have a shovel and a giant almost like football field size boat and you
dig sugar out of the sides of the hole.
So it's just a very a lot of different types of jobs that kind of come with it.
But it's a strong union.
It's there is a big push in the 30s with longshoremen to get some rights worker rights and it's
it's it's it's it's under attack right now with a lot of the automation I know down in
Long Beach they have an entire port that's become automated and I know there's a lot
of unsureness which where the profession is going to go just because they're truly trying
to get that AI to replace folks.
So yeah, just a very unknowing time right now.
So did you witness a lot of gunfights because I noticed in the movies every time they want
to have a gunfight they go down to the shipping yard and fight between the containers and
throw bad guys off the top.
Well it's funny because it's funny you say that people like so my family is kind of not
notorious but they're well known down in the docks in San Francisco.
And so it's good or bad.
They always think like we're kind of connected to the mafia and it's like oh the village
Johnny's.
Oh, I hear that because all our cousins all our nephews everyone's in the business.
So it's a it's funny you say that.
But no I've heard you know that's I'm sure that's part of the the past of it.
You know definitely in the 50s 70s 60s.
So not so much now.
I think it's more you know the corporate groups that run the docks they they kind of have
more of like a stranglehold so to speak.
But yeah, no it's it's it's it's unique.
It's fun.
It's a nice change from from work here at the fire service.
It's but there's also also a lot of similarities and also with our program too because those
guys and gals work all kinds of shifts some night shifts day shifts.
They call it nightside and dayside and sleep deprivation people sleeping in cars they try
to get a shift in the morning.
It's it's a lot of similar adjacent kind of issues that are their own but also kind of
right up there with us as well with the with some of the problems we face.
What were the elements of that particular profession that allowed them to have a good
union because one of the things that I actually question is being a union you know Jew paying
member of the IFF my whole career.
I heard we're one of the best unions strongest unions in the country but then I see for example
in 2024 that we're still working insane work hours and now you've got this crisis of mandatory
overtime and you know some of the other issues like a mental health center we've got one
in the northeast corner of the country and check the box for you know okay we got that
covered.
I disagree.
I truly disagree.
I think there's good people and I love the union philosophy but I think it's been corrupted
you know certainly in the previous administration where very little was done.
You think about the millions and millions and millions of firefighters wages that went
into that union.
So what did the longshoremen do well that you think maybe our union could learn from?
Well I do think and my dad was a former San Francisco local 10 the union president and
he always speaks on this you know back in the 80s and 90s it was member participation
and I think like you're kind of alluding to James because people are so tired or burnt
out or want to get home they don't really feel like they can make time to participate
in person at these union meetings so by default of that the power balance hangs in to the
couple members in the executive board and so you know sometimes we get a couple good
people on the executive board who have best intentions but also too to help processes
streamline you want to have good relationships with either the city or the actual department
and so I do feel that the members best interest to get kind of diluted and it's really because
of the participation people are so distracted with social media family issues you know if
they're having their own struggles you know mentally physically they want to go to the
gym they want to sleep I think it's all the above but I think the number one thing is
the member participation and being active yeah that's that's kind of what I've noticed
yeah that's a powerful and important perspective I think the other thing for me aside from
the work week is the fitness standards the fact that we have a profession where lives
are in the balance our lives our partners lives and the people that we're serving and
if you are in a union dynamic that opposes fitness standards then I question again are
you actually there for the people because poor fitness standards leads to sickness which
leads to dying you know before or shortly after retirement so I think that's another
huge disservice but I agree with you that takes all of us it's not shouldn't be put
on the shoulders of a few people but if a few people are put in those positions and
they have the support of their membership they need to be advocating for the things
that are going to improve our wellness even if it's an uncomfortable conversation and
yes if you are deconditioned that does mean that you're going to have to get your ass
back into condition over two three years or whatever it is because if as I say to people
you imagine going to the ocean and seeing an obese lifeguard and your little boy drowns
because that fucker can't swim you know what I mean this is where we're at right right
you know for our might have for the permanent work for for LA City we have a you know in
the books it's like you shall work out one hour you know minimum but that's you know
with how busy we are that's not it are people held to that by their captains and supervisors
or no it's not it's just you know that's just some old rule that was written that is just
kind of like a lot of other rules like oh can you you need to get the chief to approve
working more than seven days in a row that was an old rule because we all know that really
wasn't the norm in the past and now people are doing crazy amount of days and there's
no there's no letter going to a chief about this so these these rules that were put in
place they're also not being followed through how they were supposed to be intended for
so that's also an issue these empty rules so if you're going to have if you're going
to have like priorities or place where people need to meet the bare minimum and they're
not even being followed through then what's the point of even having yeah and I think
this is the whole conversation needs to be the ownership of the individual and the environment
that that individual works in those two you know cohabit if you're not having both conversations
simultaneously it's unfair to ask a firefighter that you're mandatory to work you know 80
90 100 hours a week to also have you know 13 percent body fat you know what I mean those
things just don't work side by side so this is why it's an everybody conversation right
right no I couldn't agree more couldn't agree more so well Christina over to you then so
tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic what
your parents did how many siblings so ironically I was born in LA so LA County so my parents
really interesting we have no one on either side of our family lineage who were first
responders my mom was a stay at home mom my dad was an engineer computer engineer who
worked in project management and my mom was an orphan so she created her own family so
I'm actually the oldest of 10 kids there's a lot of us two sets of twins and then from
that group of 10 we actually somehow found ourselves having four firefighters so I have
two other sisters who are firefighters they're fire medics and a brother who is a fire medic
as well and when I was about 12 we moved from California out to Portland Oregon so I do
you call technically it's Washington it's the other side of the bridge but I call that
home so it's really a funny story my sisters found a fire camp Portland puts on a fire
camp and it's been running for 16 years now so it was one of the first girls fire camps
in the country my sisters found this fire camp as something fun to do when they were
in high school and at the time I had already been a coach I had worked in stress management
and performance for entrepreneurs and I was looking for a change in career not because
I didn't love it anymore but because I just needed more stability in my life entrepreneurship
is quite a quite a journey of ups and downs with owning your own paycheck and I saw how
much my sisters enjoyed and became passionate about the fire service and the more I researched
the more I thought this is so interesting it's altruistic everything I've ever wanted
it helps people every day is different lots of opportunity for impact and the more I researched
the more I loved the sound of it so I was the second of my siblings to become a career
firefighter and then my two sisters after high school went through medic programs and
they became firefighters as well so we are all in the Portland area work for neighboring
departments and it's it's really fun to have our own fire fam so to speak well first I
want to go to the family dynamic because that's fascinating a lot of times when I hear
about any any person who they lost one parent they lost both you know they weren't orphaned
they've been through the foster system they were adopted at that young young age there's
a feeling of why wasn't I good enough you know whether it was you know a health issue
whatever the thing was and that can you know carry on through to adulthood also sometimes
if if there's a fractured element to that family you know where is that role model to
be a good mother to be a good father what was it that what was the kind of ethos or
the the philosophy of your mother to come from you know a background that you know the
not being gifted the kind of organic nuclear family that some people are and then to go
and forge such a huge family herself with so many successful children my mom is my hero
we call her Saint Teresa her name is Teresa and she really is a saint and you're so right
the the mindset and the whole way you see life as an orphan is really different my mom
she found faith in her last foster home so that has always really impacted me even as
a kid that you know foster foster families have the ability to create so much impact
and literally change the trajectory of a whole life and then the lives following that and
so my mom just she found a whole new way of living and operating and from that she went
to a Bible college met my dad and you know had had us but she really wanted to create
her own family and create an environment of of love and safety and nurturing and it's
nothing short of remarkable that this woman who really didn't have any examples was able
to grow and instill in herself this ability to be the kind of person who despite the adversity
in her life is just the embodiment of of love incarnate she's one of those people that you
talk to the people in her life and they would they would lay down in front of a bus for
her she just is the warmest kindest most generous person with her time and I'm I'm so
honored that she is my mom and all of my siblings feel the same way I I fear the day anyone
ever tries to do anything to my mom because we we all would we all would go full gangster
and just would do anything for her so that example I think really shaped so much of my
growing up you know as the oldest of them I had this amazing role model who just gave
so much of herself for us and I think that those qualities were an example to the rest
of us on on how far you go for people who need you and I think that that's so much of
a large part of why so many of us ended up having careers you know that that really lends
to those type of strengths.
I don't think that the post-traumatic growth conversation gets anywhere near enough attention
I think in the fire service when we talk about you know trauma and PTSD it's like we'll get
rid of the stigma and well the stigma doesn't mean anything that just means don't be a dick
about this topic we need to go way past that but when you hear of these people and there's
so many on the show so many high performers that arguably some of them had an absolutely
horrendous childhood and they went through their darkness but then usually it was a mentor
and it could be a you know a Royal Marine recruiter it could be a female history teacher
whoever it was for these people that just at that kind of crossroads sent them down
the right path and then to then after the healing realize that you're not going to let
whatever you know you experienced when you were younger be passed on to your children
I think is another beautiful beautiful element it's actually kind of one of the themes of
the book that I just released but stopping the dominoes falling on that multi-generational
trauma and being that mentor in your own home and then in your community is what we need
to hear and sadly you know it's a very divisive rhetoric out there at the moment but I think
this is the this is the hope of doing the work this is the hope of advocating for health
and sleep and all these things that we're going to talk about is the other side of that
healing arguably is an even better person than you were before.
Absolutely.
All right well I want to stay with you just for a second the fire camp when it comes to
again the mentorship I think that in the recruitment conversation in the diversity conversation
creating something that will remove the barriers to entry especially if it's in areas that
are underserved allows you then or allows young people to experience that profession
and figure out one of two things either I want to be a firefighter or I don't want to
be a firefighter equally as important in my opinion but now you're actually finding the
best within these groups that maybe weren't before and obviously you know the other groups
are already you know well attended so talk to me about that fire camp experience because
over and over again those kind of programs really seem to be the solution that we need
at the moment.
That's so true and the moment I got into the fire service I in fact I wasn't even off probation
and I wasn't allowed to participate actively in case you know there was an injury and liability
and all the legal legalese but I did volunteer and I walked around and talked to the girls
and did a little you know here's here's what life is like as a probationary firefighter
talked to them but funny enough I had never gone to fire camp myself I had seen my sisters
go to fire camp be impassioned I saw them you know join explorer programs that every
weekend they were at the firehouse being mentored learning how to take hydrants and throw ladders
and all these things and then one of my sisters even found a it wasn't a volunteer program
but it was like an after school program where you applied to be a an explorer but they went
every single day after school to the firehouse so every shift at this station was involved
and you know the the difference between my journey in the fire service as a you know
as a as a new firefighter and my sisters as explorers as it was a hobby at first I feel
like is so different because my sisters when they were 16 17 18 one they had examples of
these female firefighters showing them how to bail out of a window or how to take a door
or how to flow water and there was in that environment with these examples there was
no question to them if they could do it or not it was just oh let me do this the first
time okay let me do it better the second time okay and I I just so love that girls fire
camps or anyone who goes through these fire camps as a young person has the ability to
be empowered so like you said whether or not they become a firefighter or not they they
see they know they experience that they can do it and you know whether you think you can
or you can't you're right and instilling this confidence and this empowerment was really
amazing to see in my sisters enter you know for me going into academy I did a bunch of
research I did ride alongs but I had zero and I'm talking zero exposure to what the
actual tasks job life of a firefighter was so I started academy and I had no baseline
no framework I had a new culture vocabulary you know just tasks all of these things that
I had zero exposure to before and I was 35 when I joined and so that's that's a long
time to go in your life having done you know none of the things that I had been I had been
more soft skills communication present presenting working in sales those kind of soft skills
versus hard skills with your hands and so when I was learning all these tasks how to
take a hydrant throw a ladder it was it was can I do this not I can do this I had to completely
change the way I oriented to my life and took take the perspective of I can do this and
maybe just not yet so instead of seeing you know failure as this permanent thing I had
to learn how to fail forward and how to make incremental progress meanwhile I was the only
female in my class and about two-thirds of my classmates all came from other experience
so there was there was a lot of resistance inner resistance that I I felt that you know
I had I really had to face my doubts and find a degree of myself that I never had before
because I just didn't have the exposure I didn't have the reps in the practice and so
I'm I'm really passionate about girls fire camps because something happens when you see
someone like you doing something and it removes the barrier of can I the question and it makes
it takes it to a statement I can do this and so I'm I I love fire camps and you know in
Portland we have the girls fire camp every year we just had a minorities fire camp this
last summer as well and I think you're right people don't recognize the impact of representation
and that there you know we're driving down the street in the rig and I see a little African
American girl you know with her fluffy pigtails and I wave and what what you represent to
someone who's never seen that before can completely change their lives so I'm I'm I can get really
fired up about fire camp now it's important to hear I mean not when it comes to representation
I had a friend of mine Steve-O Michelle who's from Haitian parents Haitian immigrant parents
and he grew up in one of the worst housing areas that we had where I was a firefighter
so I used to run in there and it was literally we'd have a fire that bought up you go to
a call and you'd see families pulling the boards back of these you know supposed to
be vacant homes and living in there you know so we always knew that was one where doesn't
matter if it seems vacant we're gonna have to search it but Steve-O grew up he ended
up getting a scholarship for football for one of the colleges in Colorado and I want
to say the wrong one and pissed the other ones off but then he became a firefighter
and then bid that station where he worked to do the very thing not only was he looking
like these children he was actually from that lineage they knew who he was and I think that
is extremely important and what the camps allow people to do is go into these areas
where there are incredible firefighter paramedics and accountants and lawyers and doctors that
are not being given that opportunity but then also setting the bar for them and saying that's
where it is if you don't reach it then maybe you're not supposed to be a firefighter and
that's absolutely fine as well but empowering them and like you said showing them hey you
know Steve-O could do this you know whoever it is whatever kind of background you are
you can do this if you want but also come try and figure out you know it might not be
the right fit for you and I think both of those are beautiful results of this mentorship
philosophy rather than as we've seen it in the past go get me I need 50 English people
with straight teeth off you go then we can check that box you know what I mean you need
you need to actually go into the areas and challenge these young people to rise up and
I think that's the part where mentorship programs explorer programs fire camps that is what
we need especially now in this recruitment crisis.
I even think to just my own perspective is just like you said James setting getting setting
a standard so whether or not someone wants to go pursue this as a career but seeing that
people are working towards goals and setting standards I think young people really need
to see that you can't just float through life aimlessly without a goal goals are important
and also having a standard for what you're trying to accomplish needs to be there as
well so I couldn't agree more that the camps are great not only to get new folks coming
in and seeing what we do and how we help people but also to to see that people that are successful
they do have standards they do have goals that they're aiming for and young folks should
be aiming towards those two.
One of the craziest things I've seen is people lowering standards supposedly to increase
hiring and I've seen the polar opposite Anaheim where I worked in California there they would
lose 25 percent of every academy class through attrition like if you don't meet that bar
thank you so much for coming but you know they would let them go like every single class
conversely the last place I worked for you know they were known for not even having PT
you're not even really having an academy you come in you do HR documents you go around
a theme park ride rides and there you go you get your badge and their recruitment was pitiful
so if it truly was about standards attracting people that place that had you know was paid
higher and had better you know working conditions would have been you know lines around the
building but it wasn't because I think good firefighters police officers paramedics we
want to be challenged we want that bar to be high because lives are at stake so if you
have a low bar what does that say about the ethos of your department?
Right and then if you extrapolate to to our military I think what it's like 70 percent
of Americans wouldn't be able to meet the fitness standards or the old fitness standards
because now they have been changed it's a yeah it's very that needs to change that way
it needs to go back to again raising the bar because our job is important I mean we talk
about our sleep deprivation and you know after a day or two of not getting you know at least
six hours you you are essentially buzzed you're almost like you're operating drunk and well
if you don't operate normally you know at a high standard you know you're kind of mid
level just meeting the like the bait like 70 percenter and then you're drunk right your
capacity to make a good decision drops down to what 50 percent of where you would already
be so it's it's it's definitely important to have a standard and have some bars in place.
Absolutely well that's a good segue to kind of the bulk of what we're here to talk about
today so I'll stay with you for a second Jason walk me through your journey into EMS and
then fire and then at the same time what did you start seeing within yourself as far as
the impact of shift work on your acuity and overall health?
Yeah so um my introduction to the fire service I was I went to college up in northern California
I was a college athlete I was on the rowing team I was also a biology major so I really
really liked the team camaraderie component but then also too I do like the medical side
and I remember being at a family get-together with my one of my uncles who's passed now
and he was an old San Francisco fireman and he was asking what I wanted to do after graduating
and he's like well you are into the science stuff and you are you know you like team sports
and you're called athlete like why don't you look into the fire service and I hadn't really
thought about it up to that point and so I went head in on it and started applying.
I got on with LA City back in 2015 I had no idea about the culture about LA I that was
the only Southern California department I put in for it may be Burbank too but I ended
up getting on with them and leaving the bubble of beautiful wine country where I grew up
and so with that too the call volume the type of calls the the hardcoreness of you know
if you take a nap during the day you just you don't do that as a new member you that's
a sign of weakness that's a sign of you need to be learning your job is always the line
and it really especially hit during COVID the severity of the call volume and the changes
where I just started to go home glazed over so I'm currently engaged I have a fiance
right now getting married in two weeks but at the time you know I go home we go out to
brunch that was our thing we like to walk the dog and get brunch and I kind of had a
feeling about how I was feeling but she just one day was like hey what's wrong with you
and she's like you're just you're just not here you're just going through the motions
and I and I knew that for about at least five months during the COVID period where I had
a to-do list in my head when I got home I had things I needed to get done and I just
wouldn't be a present partner and so we almost we're on kind of the rocks we almost ended
up breaking up and I knew that I had to take some massive action to address it because
I didn't want to lose the person I loved and so fast forward I ended up you know going
online and I'm trying to think like it well what I need to find a way to be more present
and awake and here because I just I'm always tired I'm just chronically tired it's this
isn't gonna work out well for my personal life and I ended up coming across Christina
and her and her work and her page and I ended up being one of her first clients and it had
a drastic impact in a positive way on how I felt and I I wanted to just spread the word
like a canary with my current partners and friends at my department and fast forward
even more I had a an idea of making her concept and her beautiful work into almost like a
module based learning system where people can access it kind of on demand and not just
have a one-on-one coach because we're all so busy with our lives and working crazy hours
there's not a set schedule what you know if you take a martial art class home you're
never always off Tuesdays you're never always off Thursdays so how do we address that and
I brought that idea to Christina and with my background in some biohacking with you
know ice bath saunas that kind of part of the program and her her well-roundedness
with the sleep and even more it just seemed like a great way to address what we're all
silently dealing with which I think now people are a lot more vocal about but even two three
years ago it was something where you know if the suicide came up with my department
people didn't really talk about it too much and that's just that didn't ever sit right
with me it always bothered me I talked to some of this my senior firefighters about
it and it was almost like something that just happens and you just move on and that's not
what I signed up for I'm not here to the brotherhood the sisterhood the camaraderie you should
care about the people you work with and you know if our chiefs aren't going to do that
if the city councils aren't going to do it then we need to do that as fellow firefighters
and that's why we're passionate about bringing this program to the masses it's we're gonna
we're gonna help ourselves and we almost call it like self-rescuing no one's coming for
you you have to self-rescue so if you're ever stuck in a building and who's gonna be your
best shot about getting out it's gonna be yourself you know what scenario you're in
you know some of the ways to which way you came in hopefully you're the one who's gonna
self-rescue so that was kind of my path to kind of where we're at today so I want to
stay with you for a second before we go to Christina kind of creating this in the first
place you mentioned COVID I've had a few of the LA firefighters on here I during that
whole time just stood in the middle and was like the to me this is a real virus but the
simultaneous conversation needs to be well let's make people healthier so they can have
a healthier immune response to this and I you know my opinion everything that people
were told to do if you wrote down how can we make people more vulnerable to a disease
that was exactly what they did you know don't don't go outside don't be around people don't
exercise you know get fast food and alcohol delivered to your door and then watch Tiger
King for like 20 days straight but that being said there you know there was simultaneously
a lot of people that did die and I think arguably most were from underlying medical conditions
which was completely disregarded and shoved under the rug and not talked about to this
day and we've got fatter and sicker since but I think it's important that we hear you
know the the hot spots the area that they you know that this was a big problem that
our responders were seeing a lot of death and I think your area is certainly one of
the ones I've heard that I think it was Bo that was talking about that so what were you
seeing during the pandemic yourself because I think that's an important there's areas
that didn't really see anything but we need to hear about the ones that did.
So I work or at the time I worked in the West Adams neighborhood of LA which is just kind
on the north side of South Central it's near USC if anyone's familiar with that area and
we just happen to have a lot of convalescent homes or nursing homes and so for a good I'd
say about six months we were going on about two or three full arrests a day and one of
these convalescent homes or nursing homes they kind of I don't know specifically how
they did this but they made that place like a COVID hops zone so people who got COVID
the older folks they would send them there and so they so they couldn't spread it to
people that didn't have the virus and so essentially my station was two blocks from that facility
so they I mean and I'm sure other places did this they would bring out the nursing home
beds to the parking lot and we would work them up there and again this was two three
four times a day for six months but after the six months it it seemed like it almost
not completely went away but it drastically dissipated in the amount of sick folks that
we were getting so it to the extent of how long the rules were in place and there are
still some hospitals that require masks still one actually one in LA that hasn't taken anything
back it seemed just didn't it didn't seem aligned with trying to make people healthier
again with what you were saying and then just some of the rules were just either just not
appropriately managed and that's a whole that's a whole rabbit hole of where we can go with
that but that's just my experience being so near a super spot hot zone nursing home which
was at the norm for many stations it was just it was just all day for six months and then
interesting just drastic stop hard stop and yeah yeah well it's important for people to
hear that and I think you know again we just the best thing we can do to honor the people
that we lost was to learn from it and try and figure out what can we do differently
and arguably making the nation healthier is a massive part of that but also you know I
know your department specifically you know we're still getting terminations from vaccine
mandates for first responders which I I won't ask your opinions you don't have to put yourself
out there I think that's fucking disgusting absolutely disgusting when we know the efficacy
was 50 50 at best the flip of a coin I I do have an opinion I think that's it's unacceptable
you have people that you know have gotten divorced for your department who have done
all these things you work those assigned higher days and they don't they don't get their vaccine
and they get terminated now to say could they have taken steps put in exemptions and go
through the process well some could have but also a lot of those religious exemptions that
was a way to get out of it those got denied by the city and so that's a whole other slippery
slope of who are they to say what you're believing and then again I don't want to make that this
conversation about that but it's just it didn't really sit right with with your beliefs and
how you want to raise your family and and all the above especially now with hindsight
being 2020 the vaccine not being effective absolutely I had a gentleman on Greg Yacoubian
who's a retired I think he was LAPD turned attorney and he's basically the one that's
defending you know police and fire and it's just insane 2024 we know now you know the
what what was legitimate during that time and then what wasn't that they're still continuing
to terminate first responders that were selflessly holding the line with no PPE at the beginning
and I think just shame on on the cowardice behind not being to stand up and say we were
wrong we're sorry you know everyone that was let go let's bring them back you know instead
that the fear of actually owning your own mistakes you know just shows the cowardice
and some of these leaders and I'm using air quotes well and we talked about the standard
you know showing the standard for the younger generation showing accountability I know in
our department when you make a mistake you completely own it hey I fucked up I screwed
up it's refreshing people always like to just defuse their responsibility and when someone
just acknowledges their mistake we know whether that's personal professional whatever it is
it's it you're kind of caught off guard and you almost want to have more sympathy for
the person like hey that's it's okay like wow like it's just it's not seen as often
in 2024 as before and where you have good men good women who just own their mistakes
and again want to make those incremental improvements in their life and move forward and it's it's
a it's a lesson for the young folks too to see it's if if our leadership isn't doing
that then what what you know shit runs down slope right so if they're not taking accountability
then what should they expect from us absolutely well Christina I want to get to your journey
into the kind of the sleep and the the mentoring on that side but before we do the last couple
things we just touched on anything you want to add it's so interesting hearing the pre
covid world because I entered the fire service January 21 so I really have no framework for
what life was like in a fire service prior to that I only have a paradigm of post covid
and you know talking about vaccines we were required to get it in academy and it was just
if you want this job that's that's what you got to do fascinatingly enough and this isn't
this isn't anything that I can say truly from doctor scientific standpoint but I know myself
included for firefighters who did get the vaccine who just had like weird heart stuff
randomly pop up in the last couple of years and you know the doctor that I went to I was
I thought maybe it was mono because I had this weird pain under my rib cage and it persisted
so much I was like I'm gonna take this get a look at this and turned out it wasn't my
liver but they did find swelling in the lining of my heart and the doctor said you know I've
actually you know this should go away on its own so if it intensifies or gets worse you
know let us know but I've actually seen this in some people who have had that shot and
so we I think that we we really don't know what the ramifications are from that and weird
things that we deal with you know that are unexplainable maybe go go is it really unexplainable
so that's all I'll say in that regard just weird little you know coincidental yeah I
think that's the problem is you know when when it was an environment where that was
essential you know that's one conversation but the fact they were forcing it on children
when most kids were completely asymptomatic that should never have happened I had it done
my my son had it because we traveled and went and saw my grandmother who was about to turn
five so for me it was a you know and I talked to my son about it and we we agreed okay we'll
take this risk because if it minimizes just a little bit for you know someone and she's
obviously in a nursing home lots of other people I'm okay with that because we made
a decision now you know fast forward a couple of months later is when all the restrictions
left and we you know probably wouldn't by that point but that being said you know you
do hear a lot of that and I actually had some arrhythmia recently and I was wondering but
I think it ended up being stress and then I was taking DHEA and I just don't think I
needed you know that at the time I think already had a good amount and when I researched at
DHEA and stress can also cause arrhythmia so I think in some areas maybe it's exasperating
the things that we already have going on the high level of stress to see deprivation but
yeah to be forced to have something that ultimately the backstory isn't you know truthful and
I had people on the show like one of my friends is a doctor and in the ICU it seemed like
most of the patients that passed away were unvaccinated so if it's a symptom reducer
on someone who's already chronically ill absolutely you know go for it you know if that's going
to help they're already got CHF and all these things going on but to take healthy school
children and try and force it on them when they're not going to travel you know and then
call them little murderers if they don't take it you just kill grandma I think that was
a disgusting disgusting element and when they said trust the science I'm sure you guys probably
had the same thing when you've been in science for a long time when you've been in medicine
and they're telling you this you're like this jars against everything I learned in medic
school and university about science like you're wrong you know it doesn't just suddenly drop
down at six feet you know wash your hands wash your hands it's an airborne virus and
then to point that so-and-so you can't come in because you're gonna pass it when it's
everywhere that's what I know as I told you before we hit record I've got a cold today
you know who do I blame for that you know what I mean what do I name it it's this is
the insanity so all we can do and people say it's you know about politics it's not politics
it's the wellness of the nation all we can do is take these little elements and go if
this happened again what we do what we excuse me what will we do differently and then also
in the simultaneous conversation why are we not now bolstering local farmers to grow organic
food putting PE programs back in schools maybe putting some money into pedestrianizing inner
cities you know areas where we can create more movement better nutrition lower stress
improved sleep so that our population is less susceptible to whatever virus treats the planet
but we haven't it was all brushed under the rug and no one wants to talk about it now
it's it's they don't they don't want to talk about it and just real quickly that's kind
of just really extrapolating before you get anything I think really with our program we
want to do is address address these things because it's and again with wishful thinking
how I wouldn't we would maybe see this program going is educating and having firefighters
improve their health but also to once they learn these incremental things that they can
incorporate into their lifestyles when they go on these chronically sick people in these
underserved areas the things that are now working for them that are allopathic that
can go to these the worst chronic places in these communities and those folks can start
maybe doing some meditation getting some morning sunshine grounding doing these things that
are at zero cost and making their lives that much better so in my wishful thinking world
is our this program reaches the masses with our fire service EMS etc and now these little
bubbles of higher health in these underserved neighborhoods start to start to come up and
that's again I mean that's that's where I hope this ends up going yeah I do but please
sorry no it's okay to that point Jason you know firefighters historically have been pillars
in their community so I I find it such a tragedy and it makes my heart so heavy that firefighters
aren't experiencing health they're really suffering they're putting so much on the line
to hold the line and yet it's it it's coming with such a high cost so if in fact with these
researched methods with as Jason said allopathic forms of self-rescue we can begin to shift
these lives it's going to have a ripple effect you know the the firefighter who wants to
go on his morning run getting sunshine getting movement let me bring my little five-year-old
she can bike while I run there's there's a ripple effect of you know when I started the
sleep practices for myself I did it for a couple months by myself and it was so life-changing
my husband was like oh you know maybe I'll start doing this with you too and he's a veteran
you know who had who served in Afghanistan has a TBI had PTSD he started doing these
things with me too and so the ripple effect is so incredible when you start with someone
who is a figure a foundational key player in communities like firefighters are so and
at this point I don't think that we can really have much faith in government entities to
tell us what is going to be best even with the nutritional guidelines that came out not
long ago you know it's just ridiculous like that's and I think we all are seeing that
I call it corporatism corporatism is really tainting the the government in a way that
you know our best interests are not at heart and so we have to take it upon ourselves and
the cost of the lifestyle that we have in the fire service is as such that there there
now is no choice but for us to do everything that we can to mitigate and reverse because
nobody is coming for us it's very very clear the phrase I came up with a while ago was
demastocracy it's not a democracy it's an aristocracy that gives us the facade of having
an impact on it but ultimately it's a bunch of billionaires and millionaires lining their
own pockets at the expense of the rest of the people so anyway I digress so I want to
get with stay with you Christina for a second before entering the fire service as you said
you were coaching you're doing some of these other elements prior to putting the uniform
on what was your perspective then of sleep and performance with some of these business
people that you are working with and then what was your kind of aha moment as you put
on the uniform yourself yeah this is a really really interesting story the more deep therapy
I do in my life the more I see the habit patterns that continue to play out in my life so I
you know oldest of ten I was I was in a leadership position before I knew what that was I was
in a position where I was taking care of people before I even knew that I had to be taken
care of and that create that recipe created this version of a person that I was just full
send and in my early 20s I did a lot of nonprofit work I did a lot of international travel and
I did school on the road before online school was a thing so that I could continue doing
this nonprofit work I had zero idea and zero clue that our physical health has the impact
that it does on our emotional health and vice versa so ultimately I became a coach at you
know the when you know everything at 22 it's the perfect time to become a coach but I became
a coach really really young I had coaches in high school I I really loved the permission
that we had to have deep conversations and I thought that would be a great career for
me that said I started with career coaching and then as I built my own businesses I went
into the line of business and entrepreneurs I was such a hard worker I had such high achieving
goals I ran myself into the ground I did not know that there were stop lights and stop
signs that the body gives us trying to get our attention I I thought that my worth came
from what I could make of my life and I thought that I had to give my all and my everything
to achieve that and so ultimately I worked myself sick and you know it's so funny I just
wrote an article finished an article yesterday about reframing stress I became a stress coach
because I thought I I learned and knew how to deal with stress great I I thought that
I was just you know no I'm never stressed I had no idea that stress doesn't simply
happen in the mind stress happens to the body and unfortunately we have a lifestyle in which
we take advantage of and overload our nervous systems and that means that the body is going
to speak up at some point and it's going to scream and do anything it can to get your
attention and so for me I had GI issues really as a teenager now I know that I was just bottling
absolutely everything that I wasn't consciously dealing with into my GI track and when I traveled
I you know picked up all these different parasites, bacteria, all these things I didn't have a
healthy immune system and so long story short I was at the peak of my coaching career I
had over a hundred clients I freaking loved my life and I started getting really really
sick and ultimately it was you know sometimes the universe just aligns things that you can't
deny and it gives you all the all the signs you need to finally pay attention it was Easter
and it was Easter 2015 and my husband I were in the grocery store grabbing something I
saw a magazine I think it was People magazine with Avril Lavigne on the covers and the story
was that she had Lyme disease and it clicked in my head that literally one year ago to
the day the last Easter I was in the backwoods of Missouri with my family I came home and
I had a tick bite and I thought oh my god could this be why I've been sick turns out
it was so my doctor essentially said you need to stop everything you're doing and we need
to treat this I unfortunately again politics insurance government entities the woven intersection
of all of those things I did not have all the biomarkers for insurance to pay for my
treatments and so we had to pay all out of pocket it ended up being close to $30,000
of treatments and I literally would go to work every day I worked as a nanny because
holding babies was about all the energy I had and I would walk around in so much pain
and I would literally go to work cry on my way to work because I felt so horrible put
in the day at work get my paycheck pay my my treatment bills this went on for two and
a half years before I was really fortunate to get into the clinic of a man named Dr.
Roger Billica he had been the director of medicine at NASA for 10 years and he had a
clinic for Lyme patients and cancer patients and so I went there it was a month treatment
you go in every day it's almost like dialysis I got a pick line and I had 30 days of treatments
at the end of which I was completely cleared of the Lyme disease and the tick-borne infections
which I I had it less than three years so I was extremely fortunate to have everything
line up people who have it 10 years like it's it's kind of it's just a horrible horrible
horrible illness and so I finished my treatment literally the summer that my sisters found
fire camp and I because of what had happened in that journey of treating Lyme disease I
suddenly had to prioritize my body and my health and what I was going to do to nurture
my health and really fight this illness and so I I put so much time work effort and intention
into in to a degree yes I had all these treatments but willing myself every day every day seeing
myself as a healthy person saying I am going to get better and then prioritizing that mind
body connection that was that was when everything changed in my life that had to change that
had created the lifestyle that that suddenly you know not everybody gets a tick bite and
has Lyme disease but I I had such a weak immune system because my lifestyle so joining the
fire service it's really funny now looking back I'm like yes I am the type of person
that would would get over an illness and say huh what do I want to do why don't I go into
firefighting because if my body hasn't been through enough this is perfect but I really
wanted a job in which I was forced to prioritize my health in a way that I hadn't prior and
so you know that you had to use your body in a way to to be strong to be high performing
that really appealed to me and I had never you know I my dad's black my mom's white Hispanic
and so I didn't look like the other girls growing up the you know the typical beauties
of society like I always looked different and I really felt that I felt that with my
body type and I absolutely loved loved loved the idea that I could use my body for good
and I could look at my body as something that was to be proud of and dessert like it deserved
this caretaking and so that was that was a personal motivation for me to get into the
fire service and one that as I was making my journey into the fire service you know
I worked out hard but I also prioritized my sleep and I was really keyed on my nutrition
and so the lifestyle that I had to create fighting Lyme disease now became such an asset
and a tool for me in getting into the process like I said I had absolutely no clue that
as a firefighter you're not you're not starting from an average baseline you're getting hammered
dropping that down and trying to mitigate to come a little bit back up and so I knew
that I probably would have to do more to recover than the average person but I had no idea
just how much more and in Academy I started getting a bit of a sense of what that would
would be like but I still wasn't you know I we weren't doing shift work yet and so
I didn't realize the impact that sleep had on everything else every other system in the
mind and the body so my journey into the fire service and and just prior to that really
prepared me to see I think with more maybe insight because of my prior experience with
Lyme disease and every day honestly every day I can be on the line I'm getting a little
choked up every day I can be on the line is really an honor because I don't know what
with what my body has been through I don't know how long it will it will be okay being
on the line and you know compounding issue after issue but but that is why I I have to
model and practice what I preach and that's why when I started sharing on social media
it wasn't because I wanted to really do anything with it or go anywhere it was because I had
to do these things for myself and I knew that if it works for me it would work for other
people who you know they they were normal people they didn't have the ravages of an
illness like I had and so if it worked if it worked for me it would work for someone
else and ultimately that's why and how I became so passionate about sleep so it was a really
unique journey and I'm really honored that I got I got to walk that road but it was it
was a really really difficult path and I think that when you lose your health you have so
much clarity for why this needs to be a priority and why other things in your life just have
to come secondary to to you taking care of yourself I think that also is a little bit
of an egotistical thing or you know an issue for the ego that if you're not willing to
take care of yourself there there are reasons for that and those reasons we have to start
taking a really hard look at because the body does keep the score and there will come a
day a time when we're faced with with those unresolved issues that we just did not take
the time for I think one of the biggest hooks hopefully from all the people I've had from
the sleep medicine world on I got to coming back on again Alison Breger and Richard Markwald
who are respectively the army and Navy sleep experts but I had Sarah Jenke on as well who's
kind of one of our fire research people and even though again she admitted that there
was almost no research on sleep deprivation and shift work and the impact on our acuity
on our you know chronic disease what was interesting is the reproductive health was glaring or
ill health and so I've said this on here before if you think that you know you'll sleep where
you're dead you know I had some troll comment the other day when I put something out that
he's an oil worker and he works 86 hours a week and why are we whining and he probably
doesn't he's probably a little bitch that lives in his parents basement but even if
you do like if your masculinity is defined by the number of hours you work then I feel
really sad for your husband you know what I mean or whatever he sleeps with but the
point being that you know we we've had this this kind of machismo about oh I'll be okay
but once you understand that your illness is actually being passed on to your children
that we are seeing higher you know issues when it comes to infertility when it comes
to childhood disease when it comes to you know Down syndrome and autism and all these
other things I think hopefully that reframes it's like it's not about you it's about them
and obviously hopefully we'll fix you too but if we do get this kind of like fairy tale
mentality where you know it's a badge of honor but I think once you refrain that to everyone
else and as Jason was alluding to you know your marriage you know your relationships
with your spouse with your children that hopefully will kind of knock people off their perch
and make them realize that this is this is you know an absolutely essential conversation
you've got to debunk that you know machismo bullshit that we've been telling ourselves.
I'm so curious where the conversation began that we have more worth by the things that
we endure whether those things are valuable or not you know sleep debt that doesn't do
anything positive for anyone we live through it because we've taken you know this oath
that we are going to show up for people on their worst days and when they have no one
but you know a normal life unless you know your job for some reason requires that and
even when it does I think we have to take a hard look at why why do we think that this
is a good thing why do we think that putting our bodies through this is hunky dory and
that badge of honor I personally didn't necessarily feel like it was a badge of honor but I wanted
to do so much with my life I didn't want to waste a moment of my life and so if that exchange
meant I got less sleep so be it but quality of life is also a part of the conversation
that it gets dramatically overlooked like Jason I that my relationship was ultimately
the reason why I put research and effort into I need to find a solution for this because
a year and a half after getting into shift work I wasn't I didn't recognize myself I
had always been a positive motivating gregarious generous you know open-hearted person and
when I was coming home after shifts my husband and I would get into the crazy like we'd never
even argued before really like we'd have some discussions about things but like true arguments
no and we were getting into our good arguments about stupid things and I would have things
coming out of my mouth that I never even had as a conscious thought before you know where
you're like oh I shouldn't say this thing okay I won't let me say something like it
I didn't even I didn't recognize the thoughts that were coming into my head and so for me
that's when I knew that that something had to change because I was starting to lose myself
and if I if I wanted to you know stay with my partner and let alone be able to recover
myself this is clearly the answer and I knew that sleep would be the core reason because
I had when I first got on the line I'd hired a biohacker one of the you know the biggest
biohackers in the world to put together a protocol nutrition fitness recovery program
for me it was four thousand dollars but I was like I'm in this job I want to be able
to do it I want to be able to do it to the best of my ability I want to you know be healthy
and with everything I went through I need a plan and at the end of three months not
much had changed I was supposed to work with him for six and he he messaged me and was
like I think that you're not going to get anywhere you want to go so long as you're
not sleeping and so that really was my motivation for you know doing research and just like
I have to find a way because if I don't I'm not going to be able to stay in this job.
Absolutely.
Well Jason let's get back to you you mentioned obviously about the kind of downward spiral
and it being a danger to your family dynamic I want to get to kind of the the environment
that we're in now and then we'll actually talk about the tools that you guys have developed
as far as you know people listening and the element of ownership that we can have on our
own you know sleep hygiene and all these other areas but Jason in in your environment now
what does your work week look like and then talk to me about the impact if any of the
recruitment crisis on overtime mandatories those kind of things in your department.
So my current work environment and schedule is a bit unique I because of covid I kind
of had a realization that time just will keep moving forward it was what three four years
of just all not seeing family friends all this all the above and I noticed my parents
starting to age I noticed my brother and sister feeling disconnected from me and that made
me really sad and I just really had a recalibration of reprioritizing what was important to me
it wasn't promoting it wasn't living by the beach which I do love the beach it was my
family and I decided to move back to northern California so with that being said though
the department I work for we have a very we don't share pension you can't move to different
departments there's only like one other southern California department where your pension can
move to and so I I'm still still working in Los Angeles and so my schedule now is I try
to do four or five six days and then I'm off for about two weeks I try to do like today
I'm recording a podcast I'll try to do a 72 off one another 72 now is that something that
I recommend to people I don't but where I was at in my career having gotten hired in
Los Angeles and my family being in San Francisco and making a sacrifice because anywhere you
slice the cake our so the program we do and the process what we end up working through
that'll help you but six days is six days it's you can't cut that you're still away
from your family or you're at shift work so that is a sacrifice but my priority was my
family and being being able to take care of my parents having relationship my brother
and sister and so I normally do like a six and twelve with the day off in between so
that's kind of where I'm at currently and then you throw on top of that I'm getting
married here again pretty soon so I'm trying to work extra days to have that time off for
the honeymoon and you know the time after the wedding all the above so now I again so
I don't recommend that if your family's near where you work don't do that but that's just
the boat I'm in and that's that's kind of where I'm at with it so that aside I've got
friends in Anaheim that I think they lived in Idaho and they would work for each other
so yeah I don't recommend it at all and the other seat goes against you I don't we talk
about that being said if you were living in LA County what would your work week look like
and then what is the incidence of overtime and mandatory overtime at the moment oh so
what is it normally what is it what if you were if you were living locally you know what
would it look like what what was your base work week number of hours and then what are
people being forced to work if any at all so typically we do so we do 24 here in Los
Angeles so we do a day on day off day on day off day on and four days off and typically
two days a month we get a sign higher days that's the new way it works and typically
there a lot of them are on weekends they throw in some weekday days as well but it's an additional
two days a month so that ends up being around 11 days or so throughout throughout the month
but the kicker there and I'm sure this is people have the same issue is their non-pensionable
days so these extra force overtime days which are a work requirement they don't count towards
retirement which that is something that our union it's not it's a lot of grumbling from
the membership but it's something that's not really being pursued and that's that's a big
problem that's a big problem so you end up working again two extra days a month that's
what 22 days a year so that's an extra two months throughout the year you're working
which could otherwise be going to retiring that much earlier and again we all know or
if you guys don't know the statistic about firefighters who work for a major metropolitan
department 30 years the average retirement and if you guys don't know that's six years
so every year after you're 20 it's it's a lot more steeper of a decline on how much
long how long you laughed after retirement so to say that those mandatory work required
overtime days aren't being pushed towards your pension to me that's unacceptable that's
completely unacceptable yeah well what's unacceptable to me is it's a 56-hour workweeks I worked
anaheim was kelly but it was like a four then a six so you'd actually do four 24s you know
with one in between and and then so every other week you're working at 80 80 hour week
you know with that mandatory I love the rebranding rather than saying mandatory overtime what's
it called again assigned a sign hire oh that sounds beautiful I love that anyway I think
the conversation needs to be why the hell are the people that you need to scream towards
your house on your worst day working more than 40 42 hours a week and this is why I
think the 24 72 has to be the conversation and I think we are having and I'm flogging
a dead horse by saying this but I've said it so much but it's important we are having
a recruitment crisis because for example the young girls come out of fire camp all fired
up and then they look on paper about what it's like to be a firefighter and it's 56
hours a week and every other week is 80 hours a week and then you have other companies you
know and they're like oh this is a 40 hour week and they have you know benefits and all
this where are you gonna go if you and for three of us were looking and then they didn't
tell us what the jobs were we just saw the benefits on paper and all of them were service
positions would you go for the 80 hour every other week profession that you wouldn't you
absolutely wouldn't so not only is this a firefighter health conversation this is actually
a financial conversation too because all these overtime spots could you know easily fill
an entire shift and still have money left over to put the fourth person back on a rig
open up a brown date station etc etc so this is you know I think the argument is not even
though we need to get a pension for that one is to get you guys back home with your family
more often and back in your beds which is obviously a big part of this conversation
today.
Right yeah and I mean on both ends so I do think basic financial literacy and that's
something that we're hoping to incorporate into the program very just very just touch
on it and go but how many of you of either of you or any of you listening how many of
you were giving given any type of orientation about basic financial literacy and I almost
think it's insidious because a lot of these young guys buy these brand new $70,000 Raptor
trucks right but what's what ends up happening because you have that or a boat and when you're
22 years old well you you need to work those overtime days it's not it's not an argument
of if you're gonna pick them up so now you have to follow that dangling carrot you have
no option you have no option so all of a sudden you're a hundred two hundred thousand dollars
in debt you're gonna work five six seven days extra a month and that has a toll you pay
the piper and if these young guys were taught how to set themselves up for financial literacy
or success they wouldn't have to pick up those extra seven days they could work those one
or two extra days and be fine and have a great family life they wouldn't be all withered
and burnt out at 26 27 years old which it's it's all too common now at least where I'm
working yeah well just to add I want to go to Christina next but the other thing in this
conversation about our longevity which I keep hearing the same thing and I don't think it's
an actual study but it's so anecdotal it's so observational that you know it seems to
be you know legitimate but you got the five six years after retirement or you've got I've
seen another one 12 years younger than the average civilian but if you think about the
men and women that stand on that grinder in the academy I would argue that they are probably
some of the most physically and mentally resilient people in an entire community so we should
be lasting a lot longer than the quote-unquote average person which makes those statistics
even more haunting that's a great point because like you said like of those folks who are
applying again these are people who are at least somewhat mindful of what their goals
are and where they're going and if they're only lasting six years it's how would a normal
civilian do I mean you know you throw on top of that suicide and that's all it's just it's
not a pretty pretty scenario no but we can change it and this is the point I think we're
at a paradigm shift now and I say to people you can be one of two leaders now and I'm
gonna say leader from a firefighter position all the way through to city manager you can
either be the person who everyone will look back 10 years from now going that's the person
that changed our department that's the person that started saving firefighter lives or you
can be the leader that was at the helm when the ship sank because we are there so rather
than be doom and gloom look at it as all right here's your sign here's your opportunity to
make that change and just real quick so on that note right now I'm working on a sauna
ice bath work group for LA city and we are at a point where we can be really front like
leaders of having policy around sauna use and ice baths and it's it's something that
I think is really exciting but on the flip side Beverly Hills just real quick I talked
to some of their members and they had already installed some saunas and their chief told
them to scratch it gave no reason and it was because he just didn't he didn't he didn't
want them there he can he can give any any type of reason for it so again like you said
there James it's like there's an inflection point where do you want to go with it do we
want to start being progressive in the sense of being mindful of our workforce and morale
or do we just want to just go the complete other way and be an IGM or is what we call
it it's an I get mine where it's your way or the highway there's no conversation going
on and there's no I guess foresight on how this will end up going for your your membership
so we're at a crossroads for sure and I'm hoping we take the high room absolutely I've
had some very just to put it you know the glass huffle I've had some very exciting conversations
with departments all over the country talking about the the change in the work week and
even the west coast so I'm hoping you know take a few pioneers but again we've had it
in Florida we got departments especially down south that are really all having this conversation
now because the problem is once you dig your heels in which ironically where I live they
have you know this refusal to change and these departments around start changing you think
you have problems hiring now wait till other departments start fixing what's broken then
you're really going to be screwed and you're going to be left with the bottom of the barrel
and good luck with that fire department 10-15 years from now all right well Christina the
same thing so what's the work week in Portland and then again what is the landscape as far
as recruitment and mandatory over time at the moment in Portland we just went to I believe
it's almost two years ago now we went to 24 on 72 off and then 48 on 72 off so prior to
that we were 24 48 we actually partnered with University Hospital out here to do a study
on the impacts of 24 48 and then the new schedule so they did the cortisol test you know the
blood pressure cuffs at night peeing in a cup for three months of the old schedule and
then three months of the new schedule and without question adding that third recovery
day made a massive difference in the the hormone and recovery measures of firefighters I think
in general the only people who didn't want to go to the new schedule were the ones who
had kind of a maybe their partner worked in the ER or was another firefighter and so the
schedule change made it very difficult with their families so initially we got on the
new schedule and everyone was so happy to have the third day I think two years into
that there's a little bit of a shift you either love it or you hate it or you love it but
hate the 48 hours because our busy houses being 48 on is just very very difficult and
you know it's LA City I'm sure we don't compare to their busiest house but one of our stations
with two rigs they they'll have 12 after midnight and that's not uncommon you know eight after
midnight is pretty regular for Portland in general I went back and tracked six months
of data for the run volumes at night of all of the top 15 firehouses in Portland and
without fail the average was three calls a night across the the board at least three
so whether you were a slower part of the city you were going to get three and that number
I think has gone up to four or five in the summer but you know six calls a night for
the the busy houses eight twelve that is that's pretty normal in terms of recruitment along
with that we we used to be very competitive on pay and now our neighboring departments
they've they've increased pay incentives so while you know on paper our benefits are
pretty similar pay is one that we are under and our training process is very long and
rigorous so it used to be my class was the last class that had six months academy and
then six months at a training station where you would you would be still drilling six
seven eight hours a day but you also ran calls so now I believe it's gone down to the academy
is five months and then time at the training station is four months and the standards have
not changed so even though we used to have six months at the training station where we
were trained on engine and truck and driving we we now are condensing all that six months
into four months and so we're losing people from attrition we're recycling people because
it's just it's not enough time for the markers that they want to achieve so you know it I
think that they and then we have laterals our lateral numbers are pretty appalling as
well so we we have so much fewer people applying in general and for us there aren't many departments
that work the one three two three they're either 24 48 or I know Vancouver where my
brother works it's a one two one four so you know that that's really appealing so it's
it's an interesting dynamic my mentor is the recruiter and she is just a wonderful person
and she works works her ass off to you know be at the places and get people doing recruiting
events and it's just been such a struggle with the the shift schedule that you have
that's still a 56 hour work week then isn't it I think it's like 52.4 okay all right because
this is a thing I talk about with the work week as well as that people will change around
the shifts but the work week still saves you know extremely long like I tell people it's
like spinning a Rubik's Cube you can change the colors but the cube is still the same
size you know so and I think this sounds like Vancouver has certainly got a better one but
the the 48 hours a lot of people were like oh the study showing that you know the 4896
is better well I just interviewed the guy who did that study and in his words it's a
great conversation he's a researcher in in kind of sleep and health in our profession
but he's kind of early on this journey this department that he used singular the department
as to his words less than one call a night on the shift so you've got Portland LA you
know all these people going oh I saw the studies is better and again we talked about this in
this conversation it's not designed I mean really we just don't need to have we have
a need one conversation why is a firefighter working such an crazy amount of hours but
when you look at the study this is not you this is this you know if you live in rural
Idaho somewhere and you genuinely run a handful of shifts calls a week in your station and
there's no way in hell that you can change for whatever reason everyone in your house
got you know everyone your town got cholera and you've only got 12 people left okay then
then maybe that would work for you but the rest of the population know if you need to
have this reduce the work week conversation and this study that you're all holding up
was not the kind of department where you work do you work less than one call a night in
yours no I mean I never did my whole career that's 14 years in four different departments
so you can't tell me that this is going to work for you you know so this is 48 and it
looks good but people aren't looking at the 48 they're looking at the 72 or the 96 but
they're negating two solid days without sleep or with a super interrupted sleep and we all
know that cognitively that is basically suicide you know whether it's behind the wheel whether
it's pushing meds whether it's operating a tool or you know 100 feet up on the aerial
you know this is any other profession would never ever do two nights without sleep with
that level of danger but we just you know blindly go oh this sounds better let's just
go for that so this is why I love all these different conversations with people from fire
departments all over the world because then you see the Venn diagram kind of overlap and
the truth is in the middle and it's super interesting to me when I when I got into started
diving into the sleep research and reading you know it takes it takes four days to recover
from just one hour of sleep loss takes nine days to recover from you know a sleep debt
that's over a few days that's we we literally have no possibility of recovering with these
type of these the deck stacked against us in this way it's just it's not possible which
is why we're passionate about our programs because if it's not possible in a normal landscape
how do we how do we level up our lifestyle so that the impact isn't quite as as horrible
and otherwise no wonder we last six years seven eight years after retirement and we
can't even enjoy a life after everything we've given so yeah I completely I completely agree
with you and we we're just we're just on a mission now we're on a mission to help people
reduce reduce the impacts and then recover from some of those impacts because it's not
going to happen on its own it just it is it is not possible absolutely well Jason that's
the first time I've ever had a guest evicted during this conversation I was like oh she's
like oh there's no one waiting for the room I was I'm at the Newport library right now
and she's like pointing her watch time's up like oh god okay so I apologize
All right well you mentioned the program and so let's dive into that we've talked about
shift work we've set up you know the the problem I think you know people listen to this podcast
are starting to be very aware now about the cognitive issues about the chronic physical
mental health issues with sleep deprivation but I think as we touched on right at the
very beginning when we talked about union membership you know participation is part
of the conversation the environment I fight for but our ownership of our own sleep hygiene
and mental health practices and mindfulness and all the things are equally important so
Christina let's start with you because I know obviously you were the kind of the creator
initially walked me through the kind of philosophies you know the the pillars of health that you
started realizing that in this case the firefighter can start addressing themselves yeah great
question so I was doing everything that I could outside of sleep and I was seeing very
minuscule results so I found a training program I'm going to give a shout out to our mentor
Jacqueline to me with first responder sleep recovery love Jackie I found an amazing human
being I went to the stars aligned again the the Lyme diagnosis was very similar to what
happened here we have vacation bids at the start of the year so I had scheduled in January
to have vacation in September and I believe it was the last week of August was when I
was maybe in the middle of August I was I was just at my wits end and started going
deep into the Google's on anything around shift work sleep mitigation firefighter sleep
and I found a couple of her articles and so went and scoured her page found out that she
had this retreat and I was like I've got to go to this it happened to correspond directly
with the days that I had asked off back in January so I already have the days off and
I reached out to her just didn't know of a thing and said I have to go do you have any
spots left she had one spot left so I ended up going and you know the whole premise of
her work is sleep is not simply an issue about knocking the body out it's not just make the
body so tired that it must sleep or give it trazodone and so you know or overdose on melatonin
to force it to sleep there's a very holistic approach on how do we actually get into a
sleep state and this is why so many doctors don't know what to do with firefighters because
firefighters who have sleep issues because it's not the traditional gen pop methods don't
work for us and the reason why they don't work for us is because of the hyper vigilance
aspect a normal person can go to sleep can go to bed they'll go to sleep and they might
need to be up at a certain time but their time in bed is pretty protected they don't
have to be awake for anything you know aside from new parents they don't have to be awake
for anything they they know that there's more than likely it's not going to get interrupted
for us firefighters working the line there is an element of always ready so we're in
this mode where at any point we have to be quick to act to respond to be alert to you
know even when we're on calls have situational awareness all of these things are really practical
phrases for hyper vigilance but we don't recognize it that way because again mind and body being
different in our mind we think oh we're we're I'm not stressed like I'm just I've got my
crew of my training like I'm ready for the calls you know maybe the next call will be
something big but in general we're not we're not stressing about what the next call is
going to be and oh my gosh we're not like consciously tense about it but simply the
fact that one we are in this state you know one every two or three days maybe four days
and then two when we're in that state we are also having to go to sleep it puts our bodies
in this program of looking around for stimuli being aware of stimuli in which we have to
be quick on alert to respond to and that's very very accurate for just hyper vigilant
in general hyper vigilance in general so even though you know what I think so many of us
think of like Gulf War veterans when we think hyper vigilant we're looking for like immediate
threats of this person or that person or you know is a is a tree going to fall on us hyper
vigilance is simply our our physiology taking in cues and interpreting them in an incorrect
way and unfortunately when we are on shift we're giving our body signals and requests
to be on alert so hyper vigilance is really being in our sympathetic state well you can't
be in parasympathetic that rest and digest and sympathetic fight or flight at the same
time and unfortunately when we build these habit patterns these programs of being on
alert for years and years and years and years and years our body can essentially get our
gears stuck so moving out from sympathetic to parasympathetic is really really difficult
so what we've done is we've taken these scientific practices that have you know they've come
more from a an eastern medicinal approach where you use vagal toning and you use putting
intent back on the body to say okay I'm going to address the body and move the nervous system
from sympathetic to parasympathetic the beautiful thing is even though our nervous system on
its own goes back and forth or in our cases it kind of stays in this up regulation we
actually have the ability to shift those gears ourselves so we can use the body to calm the
brain and then we can use the brain to calm the body Jacqueline her her visual I think
was just the perfect example of this where we go on a call of a bad mva and we have a
patient who was just trapped in the back we extricate them we tell them hey go out into
the middle of this really busy road lay down and close your eyes they would say what the
actual like one they they would give us the finger and two they probably wouldn't even
be able to do it why because their brain knows it's not safe and there are some things that
when we are in a threat threatened state and we are in that state of up regulation our
brains sole purpose is for survival and so we unbeknownst to us we are that patient where
we are in this state of up regulation we go on calls we go back to bed and when we go
back to bed it's like asking that patient to lay down close their eyes in the middle
of that road like what the heck no the brain the brain is knows it has to be ready so it
why would it do that this goes back to you know our nervous systems haven't adapted from
you know the twenty thousand years ago where we'd go on a hunt and be up regulated and
watch for threats around us when the bear comes after us we still have that nervous
system and so so the program so much of the program is about teaching people how to shift
the gears of their nervous system on their own in one minute three minutes five minutes
twenty minutes whatever it is it was really interesting I don't know if you've interviewed
Patricia Hayes but she is a researcher she's actually actually Dr. Billings mentor she's
a researcher out of Arizona and she studies cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia
which is the gold standard standard of sleep mitigations and gen pop she won I think it
was a it was a three or four million dollar grant to study sleep debt in Arizona firefighters
across twenty fire departments and Jason and I hopped on the phone with her last month
and she said this this process had been so interesting to her because she has recognized
that there is the mental component of you know sleep pressure that we put on ourselves
okay we've had four calls oh god I'm probably gonna get a fifth here I'm not gonna be able
to go to sleep there is that component which the cognitive behavioral therapy addresses
but the other side of it is normally when someone has insomnia they will as a treatment
restrict their sleep so if you can't sleep with six hours they'll put you down to five
and a half and the hope is that after a certain amount of time the body will be so desperate
for sleep that it actually you know re kind of resets itself and gets sleep she said it's
been so interesting to recognize that firefighters live in such a constant state of sleep depra
deprivation because of their calls that that aspect isn't effective and then on top of
that there is a whole demographic of firefighters that they are so upregulated they actually
can't get them to wind down enough that they can go to sleep so it really is that component
of our nervous system that we can't be in sympathetic and parasympathetic at the same
time and if we are at work we are essentially telling our bodies that its job is to be ready
which means it is going to be upregulated which means we're not going to be able to
sleep so there are some people who have this talent of you know they go on a call they
knock out within five minutes and everything's fine but for the majority of us it takes working
with our nervous system to shift it from that upregulation into parasympathetic and I think
one of the really exciting things about what we're doing at the program is helping people
to recognize that state of regulation and also that a medical call doesn't excite the
nervous system the way that a fake fire will where you have all that adrenaline in your
system and the cortisol and then you know you go back to bed and you're just wired and
so applying all these different tools to address the body to shift those states of regulation
is really the foundational work of the program and then the sleep practice itself where you
know developed by neuroscientists and doctors is to really take the brain through different
states of consciousness so I don't know if you listen to Andrew Huberman but it was so
interesting he and Dr. Matthew Walker the sleep doctor scientists of everything grand
daddy of sleep they were talking about non-sleep deep rest yoga nidra eye rest saying that
it's really interesting that you we now know you can get the brain into these different
brainwave states which are sleep like states and do have very similar benefits but there
is such an important component I can't just go lay down and put on a sleep meditation
right after a fire and expect that it's going to work for me because I have to address the
body and so pairing the body and the brain and giving us training with the right technique
and the right number of reps we can train our bodies to do anything and that really
is that's the core of what we're about giving people the tools to self-rescue to say this
is the state I am in these are the tools that I can apply and kind of putting the key the
right key in the laps that will turn turn and open the door to to sleep ultimately so
that's that's the premise of the program long example but that's the premise of the
program I will say just to say gone with the Christina's talking about also are the the
outside components of the job as well so I'm on the ambulance at least 80 percent of the
time at work and one of which things are that are is an issue in LA are long wait times
in the emergency rooms and especially at night we're all familiar with the blue light that
just inundating us well and if we if anyone's listened to Matt Walker before well that blue
light dumpster melatonin to you know 10 percent of what it would have been if you weren't
exposed to it so one of the things that we like to do we've made the class or mod program
into proficiency modules and one of which is about blue light exposure and wearing blue
light blockers at night the types of blue blockers that you can use covering your skin
at night wearing whether it's beanies long sleeves just that alone I would say has if
I had to just give an approximation has helped my sleep at 10 15 percent just that one thing
wearing the beanies wearing the long sleeves wearing the blue blockers and that's just
you know there's no way around getting around transporting patients in the emergency room
unless you want to get in trouble for negligence right you're going to have to take people
to the emergency room so just as a physiological way to get that out of or alleviate that from
your issues with the melatonin dump just that alone has paid off dividends.
It's interesting just going back to the kovac for two seconds how the news was showing that
all these er's were full and these medics are waiting for beds and I just remember think
that's my whole career what are you talking about this isn't new you guys would know where
to be seen reporting on this but yes I mean holding the wall is and that is just an innate
thing for most first responders where they're an hour two hours sometimes even longer for
a single patient babysitting them for a hospital and I've never thought about that before while
you're there standing all those neon lights not only the responders but the doctors and
nurses the patients the hospital is terribly set up for rest and recovery for the patients
as well but that makes perfect sense yeah being aware of that and understanding that
that's kind of waking you up because I wear blue blocking glasses at night they prescription
glasses but they got the lenses and it makes the world of difference it really does but
then again where's that balance of not being too sleepy that you got to drive back to the
station first right and you know you I will say this as a caveat in terms of driving with
them on you got to use your own I don't recommend it right that's one where you might not be
able to work around that so just take the L I guess I would say to folks but the lighting
to James I do know like in Philadelphia the Children's Hospital they have something called
circadian lighting so in the evening the light type and wavelength will change so that it
is more it's better suited for people trying to go to sleep and lights are you know 50%
of them are turned off so those places or those thoughts do exist but they're a few
and far between so but again that's just something that has behavioral issues I know there's
one guy I work with he says if he gets a call after midnight and he has to go to the hospital
he goes back to bed and just sits there until relief his testosterone is in the ground he
can't perform with a lover you know it's like it's it's it's so you got that's a depression
thing a testosterone dysregulation and then the natural killer cells that happen from
not getting the sleep it's just it's like a snowball effect and that could be alleviated
just by a couple of changes you know and it's what we're trying to get to people is you
don't have to do everything it's more of like get having a Rolodex so you know forceful
entry you don't just always use a rotary saw you don't always use a hooligan it's a you
know scenarios and the I guess the individual whatever works for them is what we're trying
to get a couple different tools if you use five or six things that could that could be
in a world of difference and having tools in the toolbox that that work for you so Jason's
toolbox and choice you know choices are going to be different than mine because we're different
people but I think so it's so important to recognize that the lifestyle the environment
the requirements even that are asked of us do not set us up to get what we need like
sleep is a what is it an unalienable right we have to sleep if we're human and the less
we sleep the shorter our lifespan and so many people say that and you know they're they're
like oh I'm fine with it it's okay but what we forget to say is the quality of those years
also will be diminished and nobody wants to be in a wheelchair nobody wants to you know
have memory problems when they're 48 like all of these all of these things are going
to catch up with us because we think we're superheroes we don't need the basic human
things when we we do we have to get sleep and so being able to offer people these tools
and give agency I think that's the thing that excites me the most in teaching and coaching
so many firefighters is when people realize oh my gosh I I actually can do something about
this the light that goes on in their eyes the like it's almost as if we've conditioned
ourselves so much to the fact that well we're just in sleep debt it's just a thing there
is no hope of change and so being able to give people these tools that they then apply
and suddenly are having results from that's that's the best thing it's absolutely incredible
and it inspires us so much to see people you know being able to improve their sleep so
much even you know aside from sleep trackers just being able to fall asleep in between
calls just to be able to wake up and not feel like they're the crankiest sob you know walking
into their home those are massive wins and it it just makes me so sad that people have
no idea the number of things that they can do to help themselves and the more that we
get this message out the more I think it'll shift the entire culture of the fire service
because you know I had one firefighter who had cancer last year went back to the line
and was just so exhausted from that journey she thought I don't I don't know if I can
keep this job she actually went to one of my retreats and within a month I asked her
how it was going and she was like my life is completely changed I do these things now
I don't go home and sleep for 10 hours after shift anymore I've got my crew doing this
little sleep mocktail thing we have our bedtime routine that we all do together and you know
the impact of one person creating this positive change that that's where revolution starts
that's how we are able to make these impacts and so you know our priority is getting this
to as many people as possible because it is going to change things I have I just have
so much belief that as people feel better that's undeniable that you know the guy who
used to be the biggest asshole in the station when he wasn't sleeping suddenly is having
a cup of coffee with you and he's not complaining about everything you're like what the heck
just happened to this person you're in such a good mood what's going on you know those
are the things that those are the real testimonies to these shifts and I'm so excited about what's
in store Jason I'm sure you are too.
Oh yeah I'm very excited it's it's an inflection point for sure I think this year is an inflection
point for a lot of things again not political but I do like the whole make America healthy
again and I mean if we can do that from the inside out going from you know those who serve
and making them role models for where we should be as our you know gen pop in society and
civilians it's it's the way to go so I do think this year is a big deal and I think
a lot of changes are coming in a positive way so.
When we have this conversation I think what's really lost is the fact that it's not the
job and what I mean by that is the job of being a paramedic and or a firefighter that
hasn't changed and the people that are do it for 40 hours 42 hours a week are doing
the same exact job and the people doing it 80 hours a week it's the working environment
that's changed and so getting those two mixed up I think is a dangerous thing it's that
you're not complaining about the job you're complaining that you're never home and you're
exhausted and you've got cancer and all these other things that's the issue and if you look
at it in a professional sports point of view would you expect your NHL goalkeeper or your
quarterback or your point guard to be not sleeping every third or fourth day and losing
all these games would you be happy no because it's performance and this is what I think
we also need is all those voices out there that are at all the conferences talking about
it's for them and you know there's the firefighter fitness and forcing the door and searches
and nays if we're talking about performance why are you not talking about sleep why are
you not fighting for the rest and recovery the same thing that all the high performers
around the world swear by so again this badge of honor you know like oh I can do less with
more no you can't because we're falling apart and as I've said to people if the way we did
it worked we wouldn't have an incidence of suicide and cancer and all immune disease
and heart disease and testosterone you know in the toilet and all these other things and
divorces and you know murders sometimes would be fine so it's not working you know what
I mean and you met you touched on the cognitive decline if you look at Alzheimer's for example
they call that type 3 diabetes and if you look at the hormonal disruption of sleep deprivation
it affects our pancreas it affects our insulin levels and if you look at TBI you know obviously
there's that and if you look at sleep deprivation it mirrors the impact of TBI the demyelination
of the myelin sheath so sleep deprivation is causing all these degenerative diseases
as well you know so this is the whole pump conversation is there is no downside owning
your sleep and using the tools that you guys are putting out there and the tools that Jackie
is putting out there Jacqueline and then you know is fostering longevity and a healthy
retirement and a healthy family dynamic but also if you're the chest beater that talks
about being the best firefighter and you're allowing these insane work weeks you're a
complete hypocrite because you're advocating for the very thing that's making you a worse
firefighter so it doesn't matter which lens you look at it the whole conversation is we
need a work week that promotes health rest and recovery and then as you mentioned and
it's equally as important the ownership of the individual on your days off to own your
wellness to try and do some of these things so you get to sleep in the bunk room or be
it for an hour or two here or there but this whole conversation I think is imperative but
longevity and performance go hand in hand in this conversation.
So just to touch on too James so you talked about performance I won't say what department
in Southern California but one of these chiefs I've heard through the great line but they
almost described the workforce the boots on the ground as racehorses and every day you
go in to get your ass to a seat and you run your race and you run your race until you
can't run your race anymore and then they just get a new young racehorse and if that's
a great chief yeah well if that's the kind of mentality we're dealing with we're not
going to be able to rely on them and that's the whole purpose of what and why we're doing
this.
You touched on the mitochondrial dysfunction issues of all those types of diseases you
know again the ice baths the saunas the maximizing the efficiency of your sleep to get that REM
which is the emotional processing that's there that's like therapy at night we're normally
from 5 a.m. to 8 a.m. we're coming or going from work a lot of people can you get up early
to leave or go to relieve somebody well if you even just get an hour more of that REM
sleep from falling asleep earlier having high quality sleep well that can help relieve the
high incidence of divorce right so we all know firefighters cops pilots military bartenders
those are the top five of divorces so it's like there's all these it's like we talked
about before it's a snowball effect so if you start addressing these things you can
address then all these other problems start to reduce and again we want to have a long
happy retirement with our families and not be on our third wife we don't want to be on
you know getting our pension cut in three ways there's all these things where if you
just did a couple things to make the quality of life at the station better there's less
liability on the city you're a happier employee and you're going to enjoy your family and
be a better father and community member and that's again that's that's what we want to
do and again if that's the mentality of some of these chiefs then I have no confidence
in them and it's up to us to help each other and and and move that ball in the positive
direction someone said to me and it was a comment on linkedin and i've had this many
many times but uh you know the chiefs will say if we give more rest and recovery between
shifts then the firefighters will just work more and you think about that for a second
if you work for a grocery store and your grocery store manager was concerned with what you
do on your days off you probably shove an apple up his ass or something you know what
i mean you'd be like how what the fuck you talking about who are you to talk about my
days off the arrogance that it takes for a chief to say that they they're going to do
things on their days off is nauseating now to to add to that of course if you create
a work week that's healthy and you educate on sleep hygiene and you actually staff your
department properly so most of the overtime goes away and overtime is fine once in a while
you know and it's needed with wildfires and earthquakes and all the things that we get
but if you staff it properly that then fosters entrepreneurship and so if someone goes and
spends eight nine hours putting in cabinets or personal training or running a yoga studio
and they're home in their bed every night that is an amazing thing that is a beautiful
thing that should be encouraged not discouraged but if they're working another 24 because
you're so woefully understaffed and mismanaged that is so much overtime then yes that's a
problem so educating them not to work a night shift at an er absolutely understanding the
ownership of sleep hygiene but to have the arrogance to call your people a racehorse
this whole disposable heroes thing or you know to be concerned that if you give them
rest and recovery god forbid they're going to actually go do something else rather than
identify a thousand percent as a firefighter that is the kind of arrogance and narcissism
that we see in the fire service and those people need to be fucking cleared off the
shelf and put real leaders on
couldn't agree more that's it's you nailed it yeah completely it's a I don't want to
go on a tangent on chiefs but it's a lot of these chiefs they just took the admin role
there's and again we talk about it with our department there's three roles right yeah
VMS fire and admin well lately it just seems like people don't have that firsthand experience
on how the shift work affects them and so it's just almost not even it's a not even
an afterthought and so if those are the type of people we have in leadership roles then
we're doomed we're not I mean I don't I want to say if they're going to make policy
and dictate it we're not going to have our voice or participate in our union which I
guess is a full circle back at the beginning of this conversation participating being proactive
self-rescuing then we're in a world of hurt hurt so and let we either get involved and
it moves in a positive direction or we just stand by and and it goes the other way and
I think we all know what that other way will look like and it's not pretty all right I
want to throw one more thing at you and then we'll talk about where people can find all
the programs that you offer and the retreats one cost-free addition and this is an addition
to making the workweek shorter not instead of that I think is phenomenal and I'd never
really thought about it I think it was actually Sarah Jenke I'll give her credit I think it
was her that first mentioned this but was the start time of a shift I've done exactly
like you said I've always got up at 5 a.m. gone to the station relieve my my you know
whoever my partner is you know 30 plus minutes early to make sure they don't get a call and
don't be able to go home to their families and so that Sarah was saying that that sleep
before and I think Joel Billings said this too the night before a shift you know they
see some of the worst sleep of the entire you know three or four day cycle and to make
the start time 11 a.m. midday seems genius to me and even you know obviously I lived
in LA for a while I was living in Burbank and traveling to Anaheim so you know the rush
hour is an absolute nightmare for a lot of us so to be able to wake up in your own bed
if you're going to shift have breakfast with your kids send them off to school give your
loved one the kiss and then go into your car and drive to the station seems incredible
but then also the person who's on shift to not be woken up by some insane all call at
7 a.m. being forced to go do a shift change but you just got your ass handed to you and
now you can sleep till 9 10 that seems genius too so I'll start with you Christina what
is your kind of philosophy on that because I think that's I mean it's free it costs zero
dollars to do that and it would absolutely impact the you know yet another element of
this whole sleep conversation is why are we getting up at 5 a.m. to go to work yeah Dr.
Matthew Walker similar to Jason's point was saying if you aren't getting good REM just
sleep another hour and that that is the prime time for you to be able to get more REM so
said I know when I'm coming off shift if I or you know days at home yeah eight eight
o'clock 830 that's that's normal time for getting up and trying to get some restorative
sleep I don't honestly never heard that noon start time I have heard about the success
I believe it's Chicago fire changing their start time to 8 p.m. so essentially you have
your day with your family and then you have one night at work and then you go home and
you get a normal sleep night I'm intrigued by that but I do agree when we have our 48
hours having that second day the difference between a house that has everybody get up
for roll call at 7 versus one that day to take it slow sleep in you know maybe about
10 o'clock will do roll call that completely changes everything about the way that you
go about your day the rest that you feel it's such a game changer so I definitely agree
that it's time to start doing some studies around what would be optimal for us but regardless
yeah 5 a.m. there's there's a lot that happens in our sleep cycle that is not complete at
that 5 a.m. start time so that's really fascinating Jason your thoughts I am intrigued on that
I do I do like that because again like we just we're talking about that REM sleep there
wouldn't be an issue with that we'd get those full cycles and again suicides next to sudden
cardiac death are the top killers of firefighters well if we could help snip in the butt the
one number one or number two killer of us well that's a huge that's a huge deal I think
the only thing in terms of getting it put into a department I guess especially like
where I work would be maybe giving I would say having people have heads up with five
to ten years where they might be able to adjust their life or where they're at to get to
that point because again I know depending on people different scenarios it's that'd
be kind of difficult to how they have it structured now but I do think that is something that
should be pursued more and hopefully with these type of studies that Christina alluded
to that are getting all this funding staggering shifts start times and seeing quality of life
and minimizing liability for departments and overall happiness all those type of metrics
need to be looked at because I can I can just if I just had to guess that that would be
that would be a department that would score super high and all the above with that I love
the phrase don't wait for science to prove what you already know is true oh yeah that's
beautiful we are we're encountering that with this program because there's been so much
success in the veteran and military but it had there hasn't been studies done on firefighters
so the next step in our evolution is partnering with some of these science researchers these
sleep doctors and getting funding to be able to do studies on large groups of firefighters
applying these techniques to show the medical efficacy but you're so right the number of
people that I have seen whose lives have changed with applying these techniques is is just
staggering and we can't wait for the science to catch up we we live the job we're the boots
on the ground we know the experience and how it feels and and so I guess that's one thing
about being pioneers you you make the way and you know that's it's it's a challenge
when we just want people to be able to apply and reap the benefits and there's a lot of
the upper management that wants that proof and so we're going to be doing our best to
work on getting that proof but in the meanwhile continuing to share the stories of success
you know we all are in I mean humanity has been inspired by stories stories since the
dawn of time and and so my story Jason's story all the stories of these other firefighters
I'm holding on to as the proof until we can get the actual medical markers to show otherwise
well I mean it's when I have people just say to me can you send me the data I always tell
me firstly the fact that you're asking me that means that you couldn't find it and there's
a reason for that because the fire service hasn't done the research goes back to the
IFF certainly previous administration why were you not studying this why are there not
people looking for grants on this but to take a step back what you want me to show you is
data that shows that a 56 hour week is worse than a 42 hour week are you really asking
me that should that badge be on your chest if you can't even decipher that you know you've
got all these videos about smoothball nozzles and tiny houses but you can't figure that
equation out that's just where we're at what you're using is you're using that I need data
as a coward's tool to not actually act you don't need data you need to put your big boy
pants on look at the facts look at the fact that the fire service is in shambles at the
moment and be part of the solution so forget your data it's common sense it's absolute
common sense that of course an extra 24 hours between each shift would give you a healthier
happier higher performing workforce and you would save money I will say since you have
such a large audience James if I could just put this out into the internets if there's
anyone who's doing a PhD study in public policy or working in a science just a science
back back job but just sleep anything we will have such a large sample size for you to use
so please reach out that would be an amazing connection if that was someone out there has
a brother or sister and who's getting a PhD done we'd be more than happy to work with
you so just want to put that out there beautiful well hopefully someone listening will I'm
sure it again I'm sure Joel or Sarah would know people that are in the program now but
this is what we need like we need to annotate it but for example city of Gainesville near
where I live they've just gone to it and hopefully I think the I think it's FSU if I'm not mistaken
I hope they did baseline samples before they made the shift and they've been doing it I
think it's just a month now not very long at all maybe three weeks but what an amazing
opportunity to study right before and then obviously clearly they're going to see you
know everything improved but annotation is is is absolutely needed but I think not at
the expense of waiting for that data and I think this is what a lot of departments are
using as a excuse is not to act while they continue to bury their people all right well
Christina tell everyone listening the tools that are available that you offer and then
where people can find them so right now Jason and I are we have a beta program that we just
launched it's a six module online program that is self-paced it has about 10 videos
per module and it is on sleep and biohacking so we bring along people alongside of us and
nerd out on sleep its effects why firefighters can't sleep and then the tools to practically
put these tools into being because ultimately there's so much information out there people
can begin to you know they can just pull up on Google things that will help my sleep but
those things don't always apply to firefighters so we have tried to take all the tools that
we've seen as relevant and applicable not only have we distilled those into a program
we have from a coaching standpoint tried to create it in such a way that every step builds
on another so people can immediately put into practice the tools that that we show them
so there's sleep assessments and there's tracking measures and these you know quick drills we
have put together this program that was that was my mission in fact Jason I first conversation
when he approached me he's like why don't we can do an online program this would be
great people could get all the knowledge and I was like I am a coach it's not knowledge
that changes people life implementation it's it's the ownership of creating that change
for themselves and it's really hard around your sleep changes hard but around your sleep
it's so hard and so we built this program with that in mind that it's not just to give
people all of this these data points it's to give people opportunities to create these
shifts in their life and so we're really proud of the online program we've just blood sweat
and tears into this this last year and the videos are five to fifteen minutes long so
ultimately someone's walking or running on the treadmill they can put it on you know
they have five minutes over their coffee they can take a tidbit to apply we are in this
beta phase we're just working out the kinks so people can access it at a rate that's going
to be dramatically less than what it will be in the future for someone who just wants
to begin applying immediately and start creating that change it's a great a great way to do
so the retreats I really enjoy because it gives you the ability to just disconnect from
normal life and put all of your focus in on creating rest and refreshment for yourself
in an environment that is completely supportive of that and in a way that you know I let's
just say breath work for example if someone tells me oh there are here are these three
breath work options I might think to myself oh that one of three I think is most interesting
so I'll do that one but until I've actually experienced it I don't know which one works
best for me and so I love the retreats because it gives people the opportunity to literally
go through all the tools in the toolbox to feel in their bodies what shifts that nervous
system for them and then they have a community of people who are also interested in similar
things putting this into practice and so the retreats I generally try to do three a year
one in the fall which I have one October 27th 28th and 29th in the Portland area Portland
Oregon area generally one in February and March just winter seasons when all we want
to do is like sleep and get snuggly anyway and so that one you know it's not as readily
available it's I only have 10 spots available for each retreat but for someone who just
knows I probably am not going to go through an online program I have too much going on
in my life I really just want to disconnect and get everything at once that's another
great option so for your audience James we are offering 50% off so we'll have a code
of BTS what did we say Jason? BTS 5050. BTS 50. So not the Korean boy band. So if they
go on our website tacticalsleeprescue.com they'll see a apply for the beta link they'll
follow that link and then at checkout they'll put in that code to get 50% off so we're
doing those are the two ways that feel very authentic for us to offer these tools and
so you know maybe in the future there will be other ways but that's our focus right now
and I will just say as a caveat this takes so much ownership and ownership is can be
very challenging for people so we hope to show that the stakes really are high and at
the same time as we take ownership as we hold ourselves to a standard of care the same standard
of care that we attempt to give our patients we need to give ourselves we need to honor
our own humanity and as we prioritize that we will see these tiny shifts we're not talking
about hours and hours and hours of the day we're talking about things that take five
minutes ten minutes you know doable tools that create these shifts you will begin to
see impact across every single area of your life Dr. Walker says no element of our biology
is unscathed from sleep deprivation and so relationship health performance family all
of these things will reap a reward it's incredible that you know we we talk about little shifts
to create massive change that's what happens when you focus on improving your sleep so
that's where people can find us but that's why we're passionate and as Jason mentioned
please reach out to us we love hearing stories we're so happy to assist in any way and we
have a link for departments on our website so if they're interested we have a link for
individuals if they are just wanting to get through to themselves and then the retreats
anything to add yeah I think just to follow up to I think the pain of when the pain of
staying the same is harder than the pain of change that's when people will check out our
program and and look into helping themselves we talked about the standard of care but also
setting a standard for just having young people kind of aim at well if you don't have a standard
of care that you're aiming to take care of yourself then how can you do anything else
in your life or be an example for anybody so you can't help anyone until you help yourself
and until you self-rescue yourself you can't be that best best kind of yourself too so
um just wanted to end it with that and um again feel free everyone to check out the
website it's tacticalsleeprescue.com and again it's that bts 50 um we're really excited
where we're going that beta group we have is we have about five to ten members of uh
fire station nine and skid row working on it right now and so we're really happy to
see where that goes and um yeah just really appreciate you having us on james and had
an awesome time and conversation so we want to thank you very much yeah thank you so so
much