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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.

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Well, since then, I have actually been using my products and I've had incredible success.

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There was initial blood work that was extremely detailed, and based on that, they offered supplementation.

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So I began taking DHEA, BPC157 for inflammation, based on the fact that I've been a stump man and martial artist and a firefighter my whole life, lots of aches and pains,

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dihexer to help cognition after multiple punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later, they did a detailed blood work again, and I was actually able to taper off two of the peptides because my body had responded so well to just one of them that it was optimized at that point.

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So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense range of supplementation that they offer, whether it's male health, female health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, which I would argue is needed by a lot of the fire service,

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or whether it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of this company is an altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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which is putting veterans and first responders through some of their protocols free of charge.

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Now, Transcend are also offering you the audience 10% off their protocols, and you can find that on jamesgearing.com under the products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 808 with the founder Ernie Colling, or go to transcendcompany.com.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter spouse and the woman who uncovered the PFAS in our firefighter turnouts, Diane Cotter.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from her early life, meeting her firefighter husband Paul, the cold storage warehouse fire in Worcester,

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Paul's cancer diagnosis, how that led Diane in a search for carcinogens in the fire service, what forever chemicals are, the resistance she had from trusted companies and organizations,

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what needs to change, and so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories,

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so I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce to you, Diane Cotter. Enjoy.

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Well, then I want to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Jim Bernica, who I think was the original person that made the connection. And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this morning?

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In Rindge, New Hampshire.

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Beautiful. Well, I know that your story is, you know, around Massachusetts and some other areas. So let's start the very beginning of your timeline. So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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So I was born in Worcester, Massachusetts, out of the Commonwealth. It's probably best known for the city of three deckers or three deckers, as we say with our accent.

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And I grew up in a trim, probably what you would have to call a traumatic circumstances. My father was a city icon. He ran a beautiful Lowe's Poli Palace and lived probably a very, oh, I guess you would call it a very electric life.

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I mean, electric because he was affiliated with the movie stars of the era. Al Pacino was one and some big names from the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. He had a beautiful career.

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And my mom was a stay at home mom, and she she suffered terribly from alcoholism. So I think my father's lifestyle led her to heal herself and medicate herself the only way she knew she had two suicide attempts.

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By the time I was 10 and was institutionalized, had shock therapy treatment. And I think by the time I was 12 years old, the final blow came. We lost our home to my father's gambling debts.

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So that said that that truly shaped me to insulate myself. And I loved, loved my privacy. I can't tell you how much I loved my privacy.

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Even growing up in the 70s, when I met Paul, I was 16 years old, almost 17. And he was very gregarious. I could always wear a smile because, you know, my father was in the hospitality business.

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So we knew how to act appropriately, as you know, my father engaged us with movers and shakers of the day. And but when I met Paul, I can remember the effects of trauma that I see now.

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If he took me to two towns out of Worcester, you know, even at 17 years old, my body would react by shaking uncontrollably.

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Took many years to figure that all out.

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So he literally was, you know, when I was with him and met him, I fell in love the second I saw him, literally saw stars when I saw him.

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And I felt so safe in his arms. He had a very wholesome upbringing. He's Armenian and Irish and I'm Irish and Italian. His family was very involved in the church. And I loved that. I love that structure.

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So with Paul, there was just such beautiful peace in our home. We had a very peaceful home, except, you know, I go sideways every now and then.

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When you look back now, because clearly, you know, there was an element of torment in both your mother and father's side. I mean, I think, you know, the the needing to be around all the people and the fame and the parties and on the other side, obviously, the alcoholism.

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When we reverse engineer, obviously, it's usually, you know, generations prior, that's kind of adding to that snowball.

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Were you close to the grandparents? Did you had any understanding of how your parents grew up and maybe what the origin story was of their struggles?

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I found out at 48 years old.

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Oh, really?

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Uh huh.

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My mom protected herself with alcohol.

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She was abused by her father and I didn't know that until I was 48 years old.

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He died of alcoholism and my brother died of alcoholism five years ago.

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So it runs in the family and I've struggled with it during the five year war.

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You know, I definitely struggled with alcohol.

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This is what's interesting as well.

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It's nature and nurture.

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You know, I mean, you've obviously got an environment that is causing a void that then someone is trying to fill.

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It might be alcohol, might be gambling, it might be whatever.

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But then you've also got that kind of epigenetics element where, yes, the body, you know, is is starting to shift.

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So then that's passing to the next generation, too.

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So you're kind of fighting two things at the same time.

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You know, you're fighting alcoholism, you're fighting alcoholism, you're fighting alcoholism, you're fighting alcoholism.

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You're kind of fighting two things at the same time when you're trying to break that cycle.

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Oh, 100 percent, James, 100 percent.

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After the war ended and when Ed Kelly took over the union and I had the year of healing, I call 2023.

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It literally started in January of 2023 when Ed Kelly celebrated Paul and myself and Last Call Foundation,

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Ethereal Films, Rob and Elijah at the premiere of Burned.

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I mean, it was just such a 180 from the previous administration.

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And that began a year of healing because that was when I was able to have

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really tough conversations with the men that had shunned us.

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So one of my dearest friends, who I can tell you I love, I love this man, is President Rich McKinnon,

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the PFFM president of Massachusetts.

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So Richie and I go back maybe till about 2016 when I started messaging him and talking with him.

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And we were what I'd consider allies on this segment in this lane of PFAS and turnout gear.

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And then there was an article written about me by Eric Lamar, who was first to discover this issue.

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Eric Lamar wrote quite a few articles about the Fox and the Hen House.

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But I think like me, people didn't take him seriously, you know, for reasons I don't know.

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Maybe it was the way that he went about it.

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And Eric Lamar wrote an article about WIFI, don't worry about your health and safety, because WIFI got us.

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And I posted that because by this time I was having a lot of trouble with the

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Schaeffberger administration for not acting on this issue.

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And I got a call from my friend and ally, Rich McKinnon, who, you know, who's more or less said,

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we're not going to have anything to do with you, Diane.

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And that devastated me and frightened me.

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And I feared for my life at that point because I was literally playing with fire.

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So I called someone very close to me and let him know that happened in case something happened to me.

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I wasn't afraid of President McKinnon, but I knew I was in deep, deep, deep water, deep, deep water.

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At that moment, I then decided that this person, who I'll name in the memoir, Products of Deception,

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this person would need to know everything I did every step of the way in case I turned up missing.

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And that's what I did.

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So I let this person know everything I was doing. If I sent an email, this person also got a copy of

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that email. That way it was a people needed to know what I was doing because I was notifying the

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Department of Justice, the FBI, I was trying to make movement happen, Congressional, etc.

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So in any event, in going back to an issue that we call the shunning,

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the shunning went on for a number of years.

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And I described the shunning as, say, you go to church and everybody that you sit with knows you

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and you're smiling with and talking with, and then you go to church and everybody that you sit with

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and talking with, and then all of a sudden nobody will meet your eyes.

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That's what happened to Paul and I for four years, the shunning went on.

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That changed in 2023 when Ed Kelly made it perfectly clear of the importance of the body of work

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that Paul and I, Last Call Foundation, etc. had produced. When he decided to premiere Burned,

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I had nothing to do with these arrangements, of course, but when he decided to premiere Burned

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in Las Vegas in January 2023 and bring Paul and I up on stage, literally with some of the people

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in the audience who I know what was said about me, that was a line in the sand. And in that moment,

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we had a great healing. I had some very deep conversations. I had one particularly hard

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and beautiful conversation with Richie Mack, and we came out of it instantly the moment that

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conversation, which was raw, and could have gone sideways real fast, could have gone real sideways

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real fast, real fast. But I think Richie and I both healed in that moment. So much so

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that when we just signed in Massachusetts our legislation to remove PFAS in turnout gear by 2027,

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when Kathy and I were there for that moment, as was our Senator Michael Moore, who initiated the

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act, as well as Governor Healy herself, who I also sparred with for a number of years, because I felt

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that she was looking to see what the union was doing and not acting in a way that she could.

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And I think people were wondering how was this going to go with Carter at the event.

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When the governor signed the paperwork on the bill, Senator Moore turned around and said,

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where's Diane? And he handed me the pen that the governor had just handed him. In the second

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moment, Governor Healy handed President McKinnon the pen that she signed the next initial,

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and he yelled out, he's a huge man, tall in structure, in girth, and the booming voice.

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And he turned around and said, Diane! And handed me the pen.

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And that was what a beautiful, beautiful moment. We've been through the war together and come out

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the other side.

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We'll get into this, but one of the least discussed elements when it comes to mental health

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in the fire service is organizational betrayal. And I've had it myself. For eight years now,

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I've been talking about all things, including the fire service, the fire department, the

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police, the fire department. I've been doing all things, including the cancer,

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the sleep deprivation, the suicide and everything else. And locally, with, I would say not even

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no support, but opposition. And you kind of take a step back and when you are advocating for these

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very people, for this very profession, to be completely honest, such cowardice in a profession

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to just simply go in against the grain because what we're doing isn't working.

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And so I can relate to that.

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There's a paradigm shift now when it comes to changing the firefighter work we don't

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start to see, which is amazing.

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And some of these more courageous thought leaders, fire departments are starting to

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progress on that.

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And then simultaneously fitness standards and changing the bunker gear to ones that

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don't have people.

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I mean, these are all parts of the same conversation, but the energy that's put into opposing, to

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turning your back to talking shit about, you know, the phrases, oh, it'll never happen.

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There'll be, you know, all this stuff.

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It's become, to be honest, nauseating because, you know, when it'd be one thing if it was

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just you're fighting to get more, more money or more overtime, you know, so you can buy

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your bigger truck.

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But we're talking about stopping the funerals and it blows my mind that there's so much

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fucking resistance to advocating for our health.

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I first heard the word organizational betrayal on your podcast and I thought, oh my God,

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that's exactly what happened.

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You see, James, you're part of the organization.

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I'm not.

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I had no business in this.

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I just wanted somebody to do something about it.

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And the people that I was working with, this is so interesting when you think about structure.

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We had on the West Coast, we had Washington State Council of Firefighters, Ricky Walsh,

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and I were talking, you know, in it, I'd, Paul and I would be up in our log cabin in

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the North Maine woods and Ricky and I had been talking in 2018 on this issue.

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We had the PFFM who was advocating first in the nation to vote unanimously to act on this

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issue in 2018.

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What happened was, and Ed Kelly says it in burned, is I was upsetting the, I forgot how

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he worded it, but some of the status quo.

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Well, if you've done any research into this issue, the power of industry in the fire service

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is incalculable because of the money that comes from the PPE industry, which is globally

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$5 billion a year.

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That's just PPE.

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When you talk about American chemistry and 3M, I have no idea how you could even calculate

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that.

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There was a blueprint set up long before I came on the scene.

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However, I think that I did a fairly good job of connecting the dots, albeit very snarky

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and often with flaming arrows.

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I had started writing a medium blog where I would connect the dots.

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Back in 2017, we had just learned about a document that was produced by the AFFF manufacturers

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that they knew that your AFFF was persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic.

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There was an article put out by Kyle Bagenstone of the Inquirer where he posted or produced

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a document saying that this is a death sentence.

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That document was discussed in a NFPA foam committee hearing.

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The NFPA responded that that didn't take place at the NFPA or any of their meetings.

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It certainly did.

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Those people were gathered together for an NFPA technical committee or foam committee

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meeting.

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They all spoke privately out of committee.

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You see the kind of bullshit lines that are produced by institutions.

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What happened with the point I'm getting to is that that never reached the boots on the

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ground.

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The only people that knew it was a death sentence were the people that are in that committee.

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Well, in that committee was Angus Foam and 3M and the big producers.

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In 2017, when I saw that, I wrote a letter, very scathing letter, to the NFPA's Jim Pauley,

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the CEO.

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The CEO of NFPA makes $800,000 a year and the NFPA has $3.5 million in assets.

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This is a non-governmental organization who just opened up a four-business side business

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called NFPA Global Solutions.

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Jim Pauley told us not to worry about that because the NFPA is a 501c3 with no conflicts

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of interest.

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However, what happened was that the response that I got from Chris Dubay and from the speakers

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for the NFPA was that they are a neutral organization.

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So 2017, I was kind of a wild child, wild cat, not knowing these institutions.

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I'm not an educated person.

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I don't have a lot of world experience, if you will.

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So I'm thinking, okay, they're a neutral organization.

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I get it.

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Then I'm starting to peel back the layers.

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I'm like, well, why didn't that ever get to the fleet?

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For that, you'd have to go back to 3M themselves because there's a book by Neil McKay about

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3M and the history of 3M.

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I think he produced it in 1990.

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Chapter 18 of that book tells us that when they had the fluorochemical division for your

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light water, they had to infiltrate every fire department.

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There's only one way to do that.

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You need a vessel to do that.

200
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That's the NFPA because every purchase order written for your turnout gear or for your

201
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AFFF, Class A, Class B, or protein foam, what have you, every city or state is going to

202
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say that it has to meet or exceed NFPA standards for A, B, or C.

203
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At any event, I began putting these pieces together.

204
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:21,500
The pushback regarding the turnout gear came from two parties, primarily industry itself.

205
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We saw that in 2018 after the real cancer in your gear article came out from Station

206
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Pride, Afra and John Maher.

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In 2018, Rapalat wrote a 195 page firefighter letter threatening to sue the government if

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they didn't produce health studies for firefighters.

209
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When the government finally did start to produce health studies, they excluded firefighters

210
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because you were occupationally exposed to those chemicals.

211
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He wrote another 48 page letter of protest.

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00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:13,000
In those early days, we had Rapalat, Dr. Peasley, Last Call Foundation, and firefighters across

213
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:22,360
the nation were working in their lanes to investigate this.

214
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Let's go back to you falling head over heels in love with your husband.

215
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We'll walk forward, obviously, why this even got on your radar in the first place and then

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we'll unpack some of the resistance and then solutions as well because that's the whole

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00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,240
point of this is what next.

218
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,800
You're 16 years old, you're seeing stars.

219
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:51,880
Walk me through the beginning of your relationship and then Paul's entrance into the fire service.

220
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:59,440
I didn't know Paul in high school, but we went to the same high school.

221
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One night I was driving, it was 1976, and I was driving on the highway with my girlfriend

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00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:16,560
and up next to us pulls up this baby blue Cadillac with this white roof.

223
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I turn my head and I see this beautiful man smiling at me from ear to ear.

224
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I literally saw stars.

225
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,040
There's absolutely no denying that.

226
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That literally happened.

227
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:41,080
He motioned for my girlfriend and I to follow him and we did.

228
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:47,960
Then he motioned for me to come over into his caddy, come to find out it was his dad's

229
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caddy because he was 17.

230
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:59,840
You've never been educated on stranger danger up to this point.

231
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,840
My father was slightly connected.

232
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:11,840
I'll just say that so I wasn't too afraid to much in the city of Worcester.

233
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,680
He motions for me to come sit in the car with him, but he's got a group, he's got about

234
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:21,680
five guys in the car with him and he turns around and says to everyone, everybody out

235
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of the car now.

236
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:26,520
That just won me over.

237
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,920
I just thought that was so bad.

238
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:30,920
That's who Paul was.

239
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Paul for years was that bad ass firefighter, that bigger than life firefighter.

240
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:51,520
He was, they would call Paul, Paul Cotter in the rescue.

241
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:58,280
He was known for his physical strength.

242
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:07,920
We just lived for the antics and the stories of the rescues and the stories of the antics

243
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,280
every day.

244
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:18,120
I have no problem telling you that the fire department, the fire service, the job was

245
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,360
the love of his life.

246
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,600
I had no problem sharing the love of his life with him.

247
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,920
My children loved it.

248
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:34,640
We'd hear Paul's diesel truck pull up after work and wait for him to come in smelling

249
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,560
like smoke because they have a lot of structure fires in the city.

250
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:47,280
We'd hear his slamming size 13 boots coming up the steps to let us know he was home.

251
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:55,760
Then we'd say how was the day and he'd tell us about the rescues and tell us about the

252
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:03,440
shenanigans that went on in the firehouse, which were, as you know, wild and ridiculous.

253
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,760
When did he enter the fire service?

254
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,760
What year?

255
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:09,760
1988.

256
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:17,320
Our daughter was 16 months old and our son was two months old.

257
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,400
What about the environment then?

258
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,640
I'm assuming by that point, packs were probably starting to be worn.

259
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,640
They were.

260
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,640
Yeah, yeah.

261
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:27,640
They were.

262
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,920
I think he remembers when they wore rubber coats.

263
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,080
I think I've heard him say he remembers when they wore rubber coats.

264
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Yeah, that was one of the things we were always certain of is that Paul always wore his SCBA,

265
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,240
always wore that.

266
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:57,520
He was very diligent about educating himself and educating others.

267
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:07,400
He liked to be that guy that liked to train, lived for training, loved learning.

268
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:13,920
He was very involved in his union, served on the executive board, went to every union

269
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:22,640
meeting, proudly serves on their ramp gang where they build wheelchair ramps for those

270
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,840
in need, not just fire families, but for any family.

271
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:33,000
Serves proudly on his funeral details.

272
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,140
You'll always to this day see Paul at a funeral detail.

273
00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:39,920
He serves on that proudly, very proudly.

274
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:40,920
Yeah.

275
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:47,280
He lived for those moments and he lived for working out.

276
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,360
I love to tell this story.

277
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,360
It's a safe story.

278
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:51,360
I can tell it.

279
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,360
You can tell a safe story on here too.

280
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,360
You're fine.

281
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,880
Oh, good.

282
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,920
He was very well known for working out.

283
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,280
He's a big, big, big guy, big bodybuilder, heavy lifter.

284
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,480
He likes to do heavy lifting.

285
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,320
He'd get on the loud speaker and yell, okay, everybody in the weight room now, we're going

286
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,040
to lift like men.

287
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,880
His voice was loud and booming.

288
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:29,480
When certain people came into the firehouse, he'd have no problem doing imitations.

289
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:37,680
He just lived for that or playing tricks on the general public.

290
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:45,760
I think I shared some details that they used to do back in the day where they had a potato

291
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:56,600
gun and they would fire out the back of the firehouse out at vacant buildings to maybe

292
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:02,360
get some potatoes in those abandoned buildings.

293
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,920
Just firehouse shenanigans.

294
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,960
That's so important and that's what's so sad.

295
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,880
When I saw, especially when COVID happened and all these stations were being divided

296
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,400
and no one was allowed to sit together.

297
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,040
Then you've got obviously the devices that are pulling people apart, the individual dorms

298
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,060
which in themselves are imperative, I think.

299
00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:25,560
You have to make sure you're deliberately in the communal space because all the firehouse

300
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:31,920
antics, all the meals around the kitchen table, that was the kind of, I don't know what the

301
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,400
right term is, but that was really our decompression.

302
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,400
It's not the official one.

303
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,400
It is.

304
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:38,840
You've got your mental health counseling and all that stuff.

305
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:44,120
If you look at true positive mental health outlets, its conversation, its play and its

306
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,480
exercise.

307
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,640
We knew that as a fire wife.

308
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:57,480
I understood that and I loved that because it was so important as a fire wife that he

309
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:05,000
decompressed whatever happened during that time period.

310
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,960
I couldn't do that for him.

311
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,440
I wasn't one of the comrades at the job.

312
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,600
I didn't share that space with him.

313
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:25,120
Sure, we could both talk about work, but it's not the same if you're not decompressing that

314
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,520
in your space.

315
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:34,880
You come home from a call or come back from a call to the firehouse and it was a bad call.

316
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,080
I can't understand that when he comes home.

317
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,520
That needs to be unraveled at your firehouse table.

318
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:44,520
Absolutely.

319
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:50,560
Well, speaking of significant events and grief and trauma, obviously, sadly, Worcester is

320
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,600
known as the cold storage warehouse fire, the Worcester Six.

321
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,080
That clearly is within his career span.

322
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,960
Was he present on that fire?

323
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:10,320
Even if he wasn't, what was the impact of that on him and his department?

324
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,160
Paul was scheduled to work that night.

325
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:26,900
Three weeks prior, a ceiling from a restaurant fire fell down on him and he was injured.

326
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:37,680
Another firefighter filled in for him and on that evening shift, two firefighters were

327
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:38,680
called in.

328
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,840
So there were two replacements called in.

329
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,140
Well, Paul was on the rescue.

330
00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:47,400
So his replacement was an engine guy.

331
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:55,220
And then apparently, the other party that was not in that evening was a rescue guy.

332
00:37:55,220 --> 00:38:04,320
So the other firefighter that took his place that night on the rescue was Jerry Lucy.

333
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:15,760
And Jerry Lucy is the cousin of Dennis Leary, you know, birthed the Leary Firefighter Foundation.

334
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:24,420
Dennis is a big supporter of the work that we do, Leary Firefighter Foundation as well.

335
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:35,240
So Paul became a liaison for one of the families and that liaison work went on for such a long

336
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:47,120
time that it truly damaged our marriage because he became...

337
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,680
It was such proud work.

338
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:57,720
I'm careful about how I say this, but being a liaison is such honorable work.

339
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:03,680
Weeks turned into months, turned into a year, turned into a year plus months.

340
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:10,040
And one day I had finally had enough.

341
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:16,200
He was missing family occasions for events, et cetera.

342
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:25,120
And I had to say, if you walk out that door, the kids and I won't be here when you come

343
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,120
back.

344
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:35,200
And that second, he picked up his phone and he called our 1009 President, Frank Rafa,

345
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,960
literally one of the best union presidents ever.

346
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,560
And he said, Frank, I'm out.

347
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:44,560
Find someone else.

348
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,480
It happened in an instant.

349
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,380
And we had to heal from that.

350
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:54,160
We had to heal from that.

351
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,080
With all the things that I've talked about, obviously, once in a while people reach out

352
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,560
and I want to try and be there for them, but there is an element of that balance between

353
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,160
being there for everyone else and still being there for your family.

354
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,360
When you look back now at Paul, was there an element of almost survivor's guilt that

355
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:17,440
he was trying to do more and more and more with these other families?

356
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,720
Oh, 100%.

357
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:21,200
100%.

358
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:28,920
Because I know when that call came to me, when he told me it hadn't been made public

359
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,520
yet, but the firefighters knew.

360
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,240
But the firefighters knew.

361
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:42,880
And he called me, I was driving home or driving somewhere in Central Mass.

362
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,480
And his voice was choking.

363
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,820
And he said, Diane, we've lost six, six.

364
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:55,400
And I asked who, because obviously we were going to know each and every one.

365
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,560
And he told me two names at that moment.

366
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:08,160
And yeah, it was brutal because one of them I had known since I was 14.

367
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:14,040
We're going on to a successful rescue to kind of on the other side of what we do and the

368
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:20,160
outcomes in Burned, you feature one of the rescues that he was in the paper for.

369
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,120
So talk to me about that because looking at the picture in the paper of what was left

370
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,800
of the building at the end, that looks like an absolute worst case scenario rescue to

371
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:29,800
me.

372
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:38,680
Oh, as I said, the city of Three Deckers and they're packed so closely together.

373
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:46,480
And again, he was with his guys that he just lived for.

374
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:54,640
And that, I think Burned does a great job of saying exactly what happened during that,

375
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,360
I think it was a Three Alarm fire.

376
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,400
Not like every fire wife.

377
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:07,640
He went to work, I think it was 4.30, which meant that he'd probably leave the house at

378
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,460
three o'clock just to get to the firehouse early in the day and do what he likes to do

379
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:15,480
there and whatnot.

380
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,760
And we'd say goodbye.

381
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:24,680
And since December 3rd, I had always given him that kiss and we always locked eyes just

382
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,760
in case it was without a word spoken in case it was the last one.

383
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:37,920
I think that's not unique to spouses, significant others of firefighters.

384
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:48,200
And that the kids were very young still then and it was such a roaring fire that when he

385
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,040
came home, you could smell the smoke on him.

386
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,920
It was such a roaring fire.

387
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,720
And he told me about the rescue.

388
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:04,160
And I don't think I saw the pictures right away, but the pictures that I saw were in

389
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:15,520
color so we could see this man's body and how badly he was burned.

390
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:24,440
And my mind goes right to my husband and what does that do to him to see a body in that

391
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,960
condition.

392
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:35,000
But it was a great success story because that man survived that fire.

393
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:43,240
And there are great winds when the winds are good.

394
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:51,240
And it makes you want to do more of that type of work.

395
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:55,560
But the conditions I think were very hostile.

396
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:03,440
I think Paul speaks of doors that were barricaded and that's why the strength is so important

397
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:14,080
when it comes to fighting the fire but then also the mental strength after to deal with

398
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,760
the after effects of the fire.

399
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:29,080
The rescue responded to a lot of structural fires and we were always jaded in the fact

400
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:39,200
that everything was going to be okay in my mind because Paul was so strong.

401
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:50,400
There is a fabulous story about them responding to an elevator call in Worcester, one of our

402
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,600
banking buildings on Main Street.

403
00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:01,840
He and the guys from Rescue One responded to an elevator call where there's a man stuck

404
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,520
in an elevator shaft.

405
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,180
Literally he was dangling by his feet.

406
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:16,540
That's all they could see were his feet when they came up to the elevator and they had

407
00:45:16,540 --> 00:45:25,240
to MacGyver ways to undo this mechanism that was trapping him by the ankles.

408
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:31,280
One of the ways they had to MacGyver was to go down to the previous floor to put some

409
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:38,720
wood in to prop up the elevator, some part of the elevator.

410
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:47,760
That would mean that Paul would hold one man by one hand as he swung free in three stories

411
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:54,840
or 11 stories, I don't know how, but the guy looks up in Paul and says, don't let me go.

412
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,160
Paul says, yeah, not going anywhere.

413
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,800
True Paul Carter fashion and that's who he was.

414
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,720
What about the work schedule back then?

415
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,320
Was he working 24 48s?

416
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,800
Was it a four platoon system?

417
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,640
It was two and four.

418
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,680
Is that how you say it, James?

419
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:14,680
I forget.

420
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:24,280
So he'd work two days, two days, then he'd have one day off and then work two nights.

421
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,280
Okay.

422
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,440
So it was like 10s and 14s or 12s.

423
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:30,440
I don't know what that means.

424
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,960
How many hours was the day and how many hours was the night?

425
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:38,480
The days were 10 hours and the nights were 12 hours.

426
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:39,480
Okay, brilliant.

427
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,400
Yeah, because I mean, that's obviously another element.

428
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,640
You've got obviously all the exposures, you've got the shift work and then obviously we're

429
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,140
going to get into the PFAS deeply now as well.

430
00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:51,760
So then walk me through to 2014.

431
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,980
I mean, he's had this incredible firefighting career.

432
00:46:54,980 --> 00:47:00,680
We've had tragedy, we've had success and heroic rescues.

433
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,040
As we progress through our profession, we start to feel somewhat invincible.

434
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,480
And I mean that in a good way.

435
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,420
You've made it one year, five years, 10 years, 15 years.

436
00:47:10,420 --> 00:47:15,160
But it's that other killer that a lot of us are kind of pushing to the back of our mind.

437
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:22,120
So talk to me about the discovery in 2014 and then let's walk through the, I guess,

438
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,000
the PFAS journey for lack of a better word.

439
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:35,160
So when Paul was going in for an eye exam and it was found that he had cataracts and

440
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,640
he was 55 years old.

441
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:47,320
At 55 he had a cataract and part of that meant that he had to get some blood work done and

442
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,240
that he went to the lab, got the blood work done and his nurse practitioner called him

443
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:57,080
and said, Paul, your PSA is up by a hair.

444
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,040
And she said, I don't like this.

445
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,360
I, you know, I've been testing you for years and I've never seen this and I want you to

446
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,320
get a biopsy.

447
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:13,880
So he did go for the biopsy, which was rough, but it was the only way to know for certain.

448
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,840
And he wanted me to come with him that day to get the results of the biopsy.

449
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,720
And I thought, you know, as a wife, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

450
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:24,120
I wouldn't not do that.

451
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,040
But I was, I was busy that day.

452
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,280
I wanted to get my grocery shopping done and I had things I had to do myself.

453
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:38,120
And I remember feeling a little bit, let's hurry up and get this over with because you

454
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:44,000
are literally Superman and there's going to be nothing wrong with you.

455
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:51,920
And we walked into the office, the doctor comes into the, you know, the little area

456
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,160
where you are in the private room, where the exam room is.

457
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:01,040
The doctor is talking to Paul, like, you know, tell him about that, his golf game or something

458
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:02,040
like that.

459
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,840
And I'm thinking, excellent, you know, hurry up and get us out of here.

460
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:13,280
Out of the blue, he literally says, yeah, well, let's cancel.

461
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:26,080
Paul, every pore in his body opened up and beads of sweat came pouring out.

462
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:34,160
I remember he had a T-shirt, white T-shirt on and I forgot a pullover, maybe polo shirt.

463
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:44,560
He peeled that off of him and he sank into the chair and I'm screaming, oh God, no, no,

464
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:49,320
no, no, no.

465
00:49:49,320 --> 00:50:01,480
Because when you get that diagnosis in the fire service, you are already surmising what

466
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,560
that means.

467
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:12,400
You lived through it because your firehouse has had many cancers, young, old.

468
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,900
The young cancers you're probably thinking might be in something in their family.

469
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:24,200
The old cancers were thinking, well, they probably didn't have, you know, SCBA and in

470
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:29,120
the 70s, a lot of these guys were smoking cigarettes and all of that.

471
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:35,400
So your mind goes to fix it immediately.

472
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:40,680
The doctor spoke for 45 minutes and we didn't hear a word.

473
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:46,200
Our son was leaving for the Marines and, you know, just weeks.

474
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,440
We had a big Christmas event coming up every year.

475
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,680
We had, you know, 100 people at our house for open house, 100 firefighters.

476
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:59,920
It's always a big firefighter, a neighborhood bash.

477
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:02,640
And he went dark.

478
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,020
He couldn't tell his brothers.

479
00:51:06,020 --> 00:51:11,440
He couldn't tell the people he worked with.

480
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,120
He couldn't process it.

481
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:18,120
He couldn't tell our children.

482
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:24,000
He called his brother Rob and said, I've got a touch of cancer.

483
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,120
A touch of cancer.

484
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,520
Yeah.

485
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:33,120
And then began the search for the physician.

486
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:40,000
He had robotic surgery, St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston.

487
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,280
Great surgeon that did his surgery.

488
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:54,800
And it was successful in that they removed the entire prostate, unsuccessful in that

489
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,960
there were not clear margins, which I had no idea what that means.

490
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:13,120
But his concern with Paul is that he was a Gleason 7 on a score of 1 to 10, considered

491
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:23,240
aggressive with no symptoms, no family history.

492
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:30,480
He suffered from what we now talk about, although we still don't like talking about it because

493
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,200
it's so uncomfortable.

494
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:43,080
When you get prostate cancer, you're going to be told the outcome if you survive the

495
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,520
prostate cancer.

496
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:49,560
There's likely erectile dysfunction.

497
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:54,560
There's likely incontinence.

498
00:52:54,560 --> 00:53:02,000
And there can be other hormonal issues, I think.

499
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,840
And that's affected us.

500
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:05,760
That's affected us.

501
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:16,840
With Paul, stress and incontinence became a major issue because there is something,

502
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,120
I don't know what it is, but it severed completely.

503
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:26,440
And if that doesn't heal completely, you can't control yourself as you can do if you're

504
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,080
fully intact.

505
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:36,160
When we began to see the devastating effects of that, he knew it would be impossible to

506
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,280
go back to the job.

507
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,840
Then he had to fight for the pension.

508
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,380
And that was horrific because he was told, well, you no longer have cancer.

509
00:53:45,380 --> 00:53:47,440
You can do the job.

510
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:55,040
And before the parac board, he said to everyone that day, he said, listen, you're all here

511
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,360
wearing your suits and ties.

512
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:04,520
I'm here wearing a long shirt with tails because I pissed myself.

513
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:10,680
When he told me that, I was so furious, James.

514
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:17,000
I wanted to kill everyone on that board for making him do that, making him say that.

515
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,960
I felt, how dare you do that to my man?

516
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,120
How dare you put him through that?

517
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:25,960
How many years did he had on by this point?

518
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,720
It was almost 27, just going on 28.

519
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:30,760
27 years of service.

520
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,360
And they're still questioning the pension.

521
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,680
I mean, that just underlines.

522
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,920
I've heard, I'm sure you have too.

523
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:44,180
So many people have told me how even in states that have the cancer presumption that these

524
00:54:44,180 --> 00:54:48,040
companies are fighting them and they've heard people have said they have actually heard

525
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,040
with their own ears, the representatives from these insurance companies say, well, we'll

526
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:53,040
just keep fighting them till they die.

527
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,240
So we don't have to pay them.

528
00:54:56,240 --> 00:54:58,320
Disgusting.

529
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,080
And his cancer in mass is presumptive.

530
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:03,600
Yeah.

531
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,320
And that went on.

532
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,920
He did win his pension.

533
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:09,920
Thank God.

534
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,800
He did win the pension.

535
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:25,000
And then he began, you know, Paul Weir's a high and tight, kept himself physically fit

536
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,960
all the time.

537
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:38,620
At 47 years old, he was boxing in a Worcester police versus Worcester fire boxing match

538
00:55:38,620 --> 00:55:40,660
that benefited.

539
00:55:40,660 --> 00:55:48,800
They called the gang unit and they.

540
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:55,720
Just a little side story here, but I guess when the original cops saw Paul, he backed

541
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:56,720
out of the boxing.

542
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:57,720
That's not how it works.

543
00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:00,720
You can't decide you don't want to fight him when you see him.

544
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:01,720
That's what happened.

545
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:02,720
That's the God's honest truth.

546
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:12,760
And then they put in a CEO that boxes regularly and Paul got his bell rung.

547
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,520
But it was for the right cause.

548
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,880
So that was a big, big day for us.

549
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:22,840
But if you take a look at that picture, that's just, you know, five, six, seven years before.

550
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:31,080
And that's pretty much what Paul looked like prior to the condition ending the career.

551
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:39,640
So he had a big, beautiful family room that Paul and his guys had built for us back in

552
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:49,640
Paxton, Mass and our house overlooked a beautiful pond, big fireplace and big reclining chair.

553
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,840
And Paul wouldn't get out of that reclining chair.

554
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,280
And the beard grew.

555
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,080
The hair grew.

556
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:06,720
And he'd sit in that reclining chair looking at the walls and looking at TV.

557
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,360
And he had a catheter.

558
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,640
He had a catheter for a very, very long time.

559
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:19,000
There was some nerve damage to his thigh.

560
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:25,440
And he let himself go.

561
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,840
You know, wasn't taking a shower and I didn't recognize him anymore.

562
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:36,880
And that's what propelled me to start researching fire fight of cancer.

563
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:45,960
And why was this happening to my husband, to my Superman, my Hercules?

564
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:58,280
And I came across an article from, I think it was maybe from 2004 about a New Jersey

565
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,080
firefighter.

566
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,720
His name was James Heenan, I believe.

567
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,080
Heenan or Keenan.

568
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:18,320
And he had succumbed to steam burns throughout his body because his gear degraded.

569
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,480
So I didn't know what that word meant, degraded.

570
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:27,000
But I thought to myself, is that what happened to Paul?

571
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,920
Did the gear degrade in the groin?

572
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,000
Is that why that toxic smoke got in there?

573
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:41,080
I flew down the basement steps, pulled his gear out of the box that had been packed and

574
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:45,720
stored away in because it was too hard to look at anymore.

575
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,860
And I took his rescue flashlight and started shining it.

576
00:58:50,860 --> 00:59:00,240
And I started to see these coin-sized pieces of fabric missing inside the gear in the groin

577
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,560
area.

578
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:09,360
And I flew back upstairs and started looking at what's the gear made out of Kevlar, Nomex,

579
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,320
looking at everything Kevlar, Nomex.

580
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:16,480
And I'd find all the fire engineering magazines and, you know, DuPont.

581
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,920
It's what's inside that counts.

582
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:25,640
You know, going through all of the resources to find out what's DuPont, what's Kevlar,

583
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,720
all of that.

584
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:40,280
And I then came across this 1999 safety alert issued by the general president then was L.

585
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,440
L. Whitehead, I want to say.

586
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,440
Is that right?

587
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,680
I think I hope that's his first name.

588
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,640
I know the last name was Whitehead of 1999.

589
00:59:49,640 --> 01:00:00,840
And they issued a safety alert because a brief text moisture barrier was degrading and was

590
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,140
failing.

591
01:00:02,140 --> 01:00:05,520
So the IAFF was threatening to sue the manufacturers.

592
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:10,480
And the manufacturers were pushing back and saying, no, no, there's nothing wrong here

593
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,440
and we're not going to recall this.

594
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:21,000
That opened the rabbit hole because I said, why are manufacturers fighting with the IAFF?

595
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,000
What the hell?

596
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:33,080
So I started to ask around, you know, is this something that could have caused Paul's degradation

597
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,080
of his gear?

598
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:40,480
And I started to reach out to environmentalists, et cetera.

599
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,280
One of the parties that I reached out to was Erin Brockovich.

600
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,480
And she replied and she said, I've gotten your emails.

601
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,680
Then we had a phone conversation.

602
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:57,880
And she said, Diane, does the gear itself have PFOA or PFOS?

603
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,760
And I said, oh, I'd never heard of those.

604
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:07,360
And sure enough, I got off the phone and I could find out literally in a minute.

605
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:21,320
I googled PFOS, PPE, and up pops the European Chemical Agency is already looking into a

606
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,680
potential transition to non-PFOA PPE.

607
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:31,000
I'm like, oh, God, they've got this stuff in their gear.

608
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:35,440
So I start asking around, well, our stuff, our gear can't have that because we're the

609
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,200
United States of America.

610
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,280
That would not happen here.

611
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:41,480
I'm certain of it.

612
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,360
Lo and behold, I couldn't get an answer.

613
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,400
I started emailing the manufacturers.

614
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:59,200
They start saying, if we do not use PFOA or PFOS in turnout gear, if it is there, it is

615
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:03,220
as a byproduct of manufacturing.

616
01:02:03,220 --> 01:02:07,080
What the hell does that mean?

617
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:11,360
That's when I started to harass Rob Belat.

618
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:17,960
Well, let's talk about who Rob is and then how that conversation was because he was on

619
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:18,960
the show.

620
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:19,960
I forget the episode number.

621
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:20,960
I'll look it up in a second.

622
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:27,120
But my goodness, when you hear, again, you talk about someone who's a disruptor who won't

623
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:28,440
take no for an answer.

624
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,120
Rob is another one just like yourself.

625
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:35,640
There's absolute pit bull when it comes to making sure an issue is put out to the public's

626
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:36,640
knowledge.

627
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:44,040
Rob did not even come up for air when he took us on.

628
01:02:44,040 --> 01:03:00,640
When Rob, I emailed Rob maybe 160 times and he responded with one word once.

629
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:05,200
Fascinating, he says.

630
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:09,240
Fascinating.

631
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:16,560
I then see, I'm thinking, Rob's already done his big work.

632
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:26,120
Oh, no, he didn't even come up for air when he took this on.

633
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:38,800
He and I collaborated with Congressman McGovern in Massachusetts and Congressman McGovern helped

634
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:48,920
form the Congressional PFAS Task Force that was working in this lane.

635
01:03:48,920 --> 01:04:05,160
But Rob was the only fighter that we had publicly in this issue that would speak as to the concerns

636
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:12,400
of this issue until we got Graham as well.

637
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,600
Graham Pesley.

638
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:26,680
Rob was interviewed by one of the Cincinnati papers and he was called an ambulance chaser.

639
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:32,080
I think that was Lion Gear that called him an ambulance chaser.

640
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:41,240
And Rob fired back and he said something to the effect of trace amounts.

641
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:48,960
No one's ever identified what is a safe volume of a known carcinogen.

642
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,320
And it just got worse from there.

643
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:52,920
It just got worse from there.

644
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,640
But he took.

645
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:59,880
And just to interject, so Rob Bellart was the lawyer, if people listening have seen the

646
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:00,880
film Dark Waters.

647
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,560
So he's the one that took on DuPont.

648
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,080
And there's a documentary and there's a kind of dramatized version of this.

649
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:14,040
But again, complete pushback, complete labeling of whistleblower and all these other elements.

650
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:18,480
And then ultimately he was the one that was pulling this out of the shadows and making

651
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:23,680
people realize, no, this chemical company is not only poisoning the local town next

652
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:29,040
to it, but the trace elements of PFAS are being found literally around the globe.

653
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:33,640
I forget how they stated, but there's like one small tribe in the middle of nowhere that

654
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:34,800
hasn't got PFAS.

655
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,640
The rest of us have already got it in our bodies.

656
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:46,160
Our allies, environmental working group, Ken Cook, they produced a firefighter timeline

657
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:47,960
of PFAS.

658
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:52,640
And I think you really have to look at those documents there.

659
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,680
I was able to help work on that with them.

660
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:04,760
And they've been our greatest environmental asset in this issue.

661
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:12,400
They really put together the AFFF and the turnout gear, the patents, et cetera, the

662
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:13,400
firefighters.

663
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:20,840
So Rob and I began collaborating with many others.

664
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:30,040
I think in those days I tried to work very non-publicly that I was working very closely

665
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:38,600
with Rob on this issue.

666
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:53,600
Rob was organizing efforts for studies for us, networking to get firefighters put into

667
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,960
places where we needed to get blood work done.

668
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:05,440
And then you saw in 2018 that Rob filed the first nationwide lawsuit for every man, woman,

669
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:13,360
and child in the USA with Fire Chief Kevin Hardwick of Ohio.

670
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:20,920
So I can't state the significance that Rob has put forth in this.

671
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:28,440
And Rob's been by my side, our side for years.

672
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:33,760
He too has seen what transformed within the fight within the union and the positioning

673
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:41,400
of the union and the allegiances as well in the Sheikh Bargara.

674
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:48,840
Well, you talked about Europe already identifying this and starting to get rid of it in their

675
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:49,840
gear.

676
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:54,400
This is the thing, I think there's an element of arrogance in the fire service and even

677
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:55,400
nationally.

678
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,680
We beat our chests and say we're the greatest country in the world.

679
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,680
And I'm a very proud member of the United States.

680
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:03,000
And the reason why I do this is to make everything better.

681
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:04,880
That's the whole point.

682
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,880
But that being said, you've got to challenge fairy tales.

683
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:12,720
And to say you're the greatest country in the world when you have 70% of your nation

684
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,840
obese or overweight and a mental health crisis and all the other things, homelessness and

685
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:21,520
gangs, there's clearly some room for improvement and that takes humility.

686
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:27,440
In the fire service, what I've seen is there's this kind of also narcissistic arrogance.

687
01:08:27,440 --> 01:08:32,680
We'll take for example, the sacrificial lamb, what is the leather helmet.

688
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:37,480
You've got a giant sponge sitting on your head that's absorbing all the carcinogens

689
01:08:37,480 --> 01:08:41,040
and or your radio strap, which you're then going to wear an EMS calls right against your

690
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:42,320
skin.

691
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:45,520
And then you'll turn around to make fun of the European firefighters because their helmet

692
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:46,800
looks like a spaceman.

693
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:51,360
So at this point, you're not concerned about performance and safety.

694
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:52,640
You're concerned about how you look.

695
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,660
You want to be Kurt Russell.

696
01:08:54,660 --> 01:09:00,520
So separating those two and realizing that some of these other nations, Sweden, for example,

697
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:04,740
are ahead of the game because they've already figured some of these things out rather than

698
01:09:04,740 --> 01:09:08,240
ridiculing them, asking yourself, well, why aren't we doing it this way?

699
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,160
Doesn't mean you have to do everything that way.

700
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:14,680
You don't have to do the full clean cab model if you don't want to, for example, but not

701
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:20,720
sitting in a cab with your gear and the pack off gassing while you're driving home.

702
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:22,320
That's just common sense.

703
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:27,060
So talk to me about what you were learning that was happening in Europe and then the

704
01:09:27,060 --> 01:09:30,400
resistance to this conversation you were finding here in America.

705
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:36,320
In Europe, they had produced something called the PFOA background document.

706
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:38,200
It's three hundred and eighty five pages.

707
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:42,240
I can't tell you how many times I've read that cover to cover.

708
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:47,900
And I would produce that I would put links on my computer and I'd send that email to

709
01:09:47,900 --> 01:09:56,120
hundreds of organizations, firefighters, institutions, journalists, our gear.

710
01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:01,080
Their gear has this and they're already trying to remove it.

711
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:09,180
And then we reach out to the scientists in Europe who were very, very aware of what was

712
01:10:09,180 --> 01:10:16,920
going on in discussions here about trying to squash this discussion in the US, a because

713
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:21,200
we had Dr. Roger Klein of Cambridge University.

714
01:10:21,200 --> 01:10:23,320
Brilliant, brilliant man.

715
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:33,560
And he had produced a paper for Hemingfire, I think it is in the UK on this subject.

716
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,820
It's still available by download.

717
01:10:35,820 --> 01:10:38,920
You may even be able to find it on my website.

718
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,760
TurnoutGear and PFOA.com.

719
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,320
So I was finding that and sending that to fire service leaders.

720
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:50,440
It wasn't just the IAFF.

721
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:58,280
It was the IAFC, the National Volunteer Fire Council and of course, the NFPA pleading with

722
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:02,520
someone to please, please take this on.

723
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:04,200
It doesn't belong in my hands.

724
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:08,520
I was emailing newspaper reporters.

725
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,680
Please get somebody to do something about this.

726
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:19,640
Congressional pleading with someone because you needed someone that had hours to research,

727
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,360
had hours to connect the dots.

728
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:24,560
And that's what I was doing.

729
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:30,280
I was connecting the dots.

730
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:38,640
And when I was trying to network and get people to not so much believe what the IAFF was saying

731
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:44,760
because the IAFF was coming out with statements that they spoke to DuPont and DuPont said

732
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:46,040
all is well.

733
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:48,600
And that was in 2017, 2018.

734
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:58,060
And then in 2019, we had the Lion Gear study that DuPont that, excuse me, that Harold

735
01:11:58,060 --> 01:12:00,800
Schaeferger endorsed.

736
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:09,320
And that's the kind of pushback that we were facing even in great discussions about health

737
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:13,120
and safety at Health Cancer Summit.

738
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:19,480
You saw the industry capture of your Cancer Summit.

739
01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:26,800
You see the industry capture of your institutions, not just fire service institutions, but the

740
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,120
EPA.

741
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:36,920
All of these institutions back to the 70s were captured by DuPont.

742
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:46,600
You had Susan Stelnacker, who was a vice president of DuPont, pleading with the EPA to not put

743
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:52,160
PFOA in a Prop 65 guidance.

744
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:56,820
So Prop 65 is your label that discusses reproductive harms.

745
01:12:56,820 --> 01:12:58,680
You see that on all of your...

746
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:06,960
So you don't get to see a Prop 65 label or any labels, any health labels in your turnout

747
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:07,960
gear.

748
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:12,120
And I was putting all these pieces together.

749
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:29,600
The money that was being produced in the form of perks and incentives by turnout gear, manufacturers,

750
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:35,880
trips, awards, it's all very enticing.

751
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:42,200
It's all very enticing to the degree that we could probably look the other way and not

752
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,000
believe this crazy bitch.

753
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,240
And that's what happened.

754
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:52,320
Well, I mean, it's going to say when you look at studies or if you look at organizations

755
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,840
that are supposed to be trustworthy, I'll give you a recent one, the FDA just rejected

756
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:02,600
the use of MDMA for psychotherapy, which has shown such incredible efficacy.

757
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:09,120
Now, that's just the same FDA that approved the use of Oxycontin, which really is the

758
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:12,480
underbelly of the opioid crisis that we're suffering now.

759
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:14,120
Same agency.

760
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:19,360
And then you look at how we were told hands down categorically that the COVID-19 was

761
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:20,360
100% effective.

762
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:22,920
And if you didn't take it, you were a murderer.

763
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,560
And if you look at studies that show that fast food doesn't make you sick, that cigarettes

764
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:28,560
are perfectly safe.

765
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:34,840
This is what kills me, and actually just releasing today a researcher who did a study on the

766
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:41,720
shift schedule, the 4896 being healthier than the 2448.

767
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:45,760
And we had a great conversation as not putting blame on him because he was new to this entire

768
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:46,880
field.

769
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:52,980
But that department that he studied ran, and I'm using his words now, less than one call

770
01:14:52,980 --> 01:14:54,640
a night.

771
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,880
So you've got all these departments around the country now that are going, oh, I saw

772
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,960
the research in the 4896 is healthier.

773
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:07,120
What is Worcester, Boston, Dallas, Ocala, wherever it is in the country, most of us

774
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:09,820
are running multiple times at night.

775
01:15:09,820 --> 01:15:13,800
So you can't say that 48 hours in a row without sleep is safe.

776
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,440
But this is a problem with studies.

777
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:20,400
All someone has to do is front load a study so it benefits them and then hold it as the

778
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,160
gold standard.

779
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:28,920
And it takes a lot of diligence and a lot of aggression and swimming upstream, as it

780
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:33,120
were, to get everyone to just take a step back and realize that that study doesn't

781
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:41,200
mean anything on its own, especially if it was subsidized or paid for by an organization

782
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,480
that's going to benefit from its results.

783
01:15:44,480 --> 01:15:45,480
That's what we had.

784
01:15:45,480 --> 01:15:46,760
That's exactly what we had.

785
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:54,040
So in the Lion Gear study, we call it the volleyball tennis ball episode because they

786
01:15:54,040 --> 01:16:05,120
were literally their exact words to our PPE specialist, Jeff Kenobi from Alameda County

787
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,920
fire.

788
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:12,920
He's the reason why we literally have the study with Dr. Peasley.

789
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:18,600
If it weren't for Jeff, we would not have this study, I can assure you of that because

790
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:23,720
of the lengths that he went to.

791
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:28,720
That's a story for him to tell.

792
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:37,560
When he was he wanted to see this study by Lion Gear that they produced.

793
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:48,920
Lion Gear flew from Dayton, Ohio to Alameda County, California to Jeff's PPE laboratory.

794
01:16:48,920 --> 01:17:00,280
And during that time, Jeff, the Lion Gear team received a call from a third party.

795
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:05,560
That third party was Paul Krastowski.

796
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:13,960
So Paul Krastowski was the consultant that led this study.

797
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:19,920
Krastowski said to Jeff, Jeff, don't worry about these chemicals, the new chemicals.

798
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,000
They're too big to pass through the skin.

799
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,640
They're like volleyballs and tennis balls.

800
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:37,280
Fast forward a few months at the IAFFs, it was one of the health summits.

801
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:43,800
Oh boy, we see them saying the same thing.

802
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:50,760
I think it was Raquel Segal that said you don't have to worry about the PFAS in your

803
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,760
gear because it's like volleyballs and tennis balls.

804
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:57,320
I'm sitting right here at this desk.

805
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:58,480
My phone rings.

806
01:17:58,480 --> 01:17:59,480
It's Jeff.

807
01:17:59,480 --> 01:18:01,160
I literally fall off the floor.

808
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:02,200
We're both screaming.

809
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,040
Did you just hear that?

810
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:11,680
Oh, I can't tell you how many flaming arrows were fired that day because we're both banging

811
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,440
on to the comments section.

812
01:18:14,440 --> 01:18:18,880
And oh my God, it was wild, wild.

813
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:31,000
You know, that's the influence of industry is so pervasive.

814
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,480
And I'll tell you, James, industry gives zero shits about your job.

815
01:18:38,480 --> 01:18:42,600
They're going to entice you to do their thing.

816
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:53,000
I wrote an article called The Scheme in Medium and it starts out with the story about a FDNY

817
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:54,600
firefighter.

818
01:18:54,600 --> 01:19:08,200
I think he was an officer and he was taking some funds off the side by lying gear.

819
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:13,560
And, you know, he paid the price for that.

820
01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:20,560
They give zero, you know what, about your job.

821
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:23,480
Their job is to entice you.

822
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:28,240
And I believe that is what happened with the Schaeftberger administration.

823
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:32,480
Not all, of course, not all.

824
01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:38,440
And I believe that Schaeftberger was heavily influenced with perks and incentives.

825
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:42,800
Well this is the problem and I literally just shared an amazing speech and I forget the

826
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:47,200
gentleman's name now, but Tulsi Gabbard actually shared it originally who I had on the show

827
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:48,200
as well.

828
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,480
And we discussed this very thing.

829
01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:59,160
If you have an industry that makes money off the illness of Americans, where is the resistance

830
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:02,980
to or where is the incentive to make people healthy?

831
01:20:02,980 --> 01:20:08,480
If you have multiple companies that are making huge amount of money from weapons and uniforms

832
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:11,820
and MREs, where is the resistance to war?

833
01:20:11,820 --> 01:20:14,120
And it's the same, you know, politicians are politicians.

834
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:15,120
This is why it's so careful.

835
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:20,520
You know, it's so slippery when you're in, you know, a union where you stay connected

836
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:26,280
to your people because I can tell you, where I used to work, Reedy Creek, they were hosting

837
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:31,180
the union, the IAFF conference, whatever it's called, I never really paid that much attention.

838
01:20:31,180 --> 01:20:33,560
And it was literally like Britney Spears was coming.

839
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:37,440
The demands that they had, they had to have this kind of suite and I'm like, was it blue

840
01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:38,440
M&Ms?

841
01:20:38,440 --> 01:20:39,440
I mean, what are we talking about here?

842
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:40,440
This is a firefighter.

843
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:41,440
It's all you are.

844
01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:45,660
You're a firefighter that is paid by us to represent us.

845
01:20:45,660 --> 01:20:48,020
And you could see the massive disconnect.

846
01:20:48,020 --> 01:20:54,080
So at that point, when you've got any and burned, they show them thanking the sponsors

847
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:56,500
and one of the sponsors is DuPont.

848
01:20:56,500 --> 01:21:00,260
So at this point, you know, where are the checks and balances to make sure that the

849
01:21:00,260 --> 01:21:05,960
people who are supposed to be advocating for our health are actually holding their ethics

850
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:06,960
up?

851
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:07,960
And I would argue even the same in administrations.

852
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:13,960
I know a lot of a lot of chiefs that are absolute fucking cowards because they're more worried

853
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:18,940
about their own career ladder than they are advocating for the people and then local union

854
01:21:18,940 --> 01:21:20,200
leaders too.

855
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:24,240
And I know some amazing ones, don't get me wrong, but I see it that corruption, that

856
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:28,320
self-serving element that's a cancer in the fire service.

857
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,080
Oh, it's the biggest.

858
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:34,560
It's absolutely the biggest.

859
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:45,200
You know, this, we saw it and I can tell you that what I've put out there is just a fraction

860
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:50,920
of the information that I've acquired over the years.

861
01:21:50,920 --> 01:22:00,760
You're going to see that in the memoir because I don't think we're going to get the congressional

862
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:06,160
hearings that we should have gotten on this.

863
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:16,880
When Ed Kelly asked for the Schneider report to be made public for you all, that's what

864
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:30,760
I was waiting for was to see in my eyes in black and white what the outcome was of the

865
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:42,360
investigation that the ethics committee of the IAFF had requested by that law firm Schneider

866
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:45,440
regarding their relationship with vendors.

867
01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:53,840
I already know and I have their receipts.

868
01:22:53,840 --> 01:23:05,480
The executive board voted 50-50 and this is from President Kelly himself to 50% voted

869
01:23:05,480 --> 01:23:11,720
not to release, 50% or eight and eight voted to release it, not to release it.

870
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:16,280
He cast the deciding vote that was to release it to the public.

871
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:27,080
And then I believe he states that the legal team has advised not to release it.

872
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:33,800
That speaks so loudly to me because I know what I lived for years.

873
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:49,920
I know the information that I have been entrusted with regarding these channels and that is

874
01:23:49,920 --> 01:24:04,040
why it is so important that the transparency be given and that investigations are undertaken

875
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:07,600
into this issue.

876
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:17,340
It perplexes me why we are not holding investigations, congressional investigations into what clearly

877
01:24:17,340 --> 01:24:25,360
is going to be the largest intentional occupational poisoning known to mankind.

878
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:36,200
You have 30 years of this, 30 years of this poisoning.

879
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:46,640
Paul and I have always said we are not saying that everyone's cancer is from PFAS but when

880
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:57,480
you look at the cancers related to PFAS, they match line item by line item the known cancers

881
01:24:57,480 --> 01:25:09,360
that are firefighters, highest level, testicular, blood cancers, brain cancers, prostate cancer,

882
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:13,040
those all match the PFAS cancers.

883
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:17,000
And industry will come out and say, well, who the hell is she?

884
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,960
She's just some thiamin's wife.

885
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:27,320
Talk to me about all the things because I think this is the entire conversation and

886
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:32,000
when COVID happened, everyone was focused on this microorganism that was floating around

887
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:38,520
and there was obviously a real virus out there that was then opportunistically making some

888
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:42,240
sick and taking many, many lives and it was devastating.

889
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:47,520
But what wasn't happening simultaneously was the conversation about making Americans healthier

890
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:52,280
physically, mentally, and at the end of this, and I've said this many times, if it was really

891
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:56,920
about health, PE programs would have been bolstered, local farmers would have been incentivized

892
01:25:56,920 --> 01:26:02,120
to grow local organic food, all the fast food would have been taken out of schools and the

893
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:07,280
soda machines, downtown areas would have been more pedestrianized.

894
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:09,560
We would have actually taken it seriously.

895
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:14,840
And the thing with the PFAS is, like you said, of course, the carcinogens in these fires

896
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:20,160
are and car fires and dumpster fires are something that we absolutely have to take into consideration

897
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:22,480
and be extremely careful about.

898
01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:26,440
The diesel exhaust, having your gear in the bay, having the ice maker in the bay, these

899
01:26:26,440 --> 01:26:29,160
are clearly things that we need to fix.

900
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:34,080
The resilience of the human being to these carcinogens, which is where the fight that

901
01:26:34,080 --> 01:26:38,800
I'm so dogmatic about is rest and recovery and our first responders fully staffing a

902
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:39,800
fire department.

903
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:42,080
So the mandatory overtime goes away.

904
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:44,080
Massive part of this conversation.

905
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:50,440
But then to have clean gear that is also carcinogenic is another huge part of this conversation.

906
01:26:50,440 --> 01:26:56,080
The cancer conversation is a pie chart and PFAS is a big piece as well.

907
01:26:56,080 --> 01:27:03,320
So talk to me about the gamut of diseases that are being related to this, not just in

908
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,360
the individual, but in the offspring of the individual.

909
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:09,880
So I think this is some people not so worried about what happens to them.

910
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,840
But when you know that you're passing it to your children, then people pay attention.

911
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:16,680
Well, that's the crux of this.

912
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:24,880
I think James is because you were taught to mitigate against toxic smoke, against diesel,

913
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:31,320
against, you know, bringing your gear in your home, not washing it in your family's washing

914
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,600
machine.

915
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:40,080
You were never taught to mitigate against the known carcinogen and family of carcinogens

916
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:47,840
that your gear is saturated in as a durable water repellent from head to head to ankle,

917
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:53,320
from neck to ankle, and then a full Teflon moisture barrier.

918
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:59,800
So I can only relay what I read and I have no credentials to offer you what I can tell

919
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:14,160
you from years of this lane is that the reproductive, both male and female, the reproductive systems

920
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:19,280
are impacted, affected by PFAS.

921
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:26,380
There's a brilliant firefighter in Chesapeake, Virginia, Lieutenant Brian Goodman, and he

922
01:28:26,380 --> 01:28:32,360
operates an organization called ESSHA, Esha.

923
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:43,000
So Brian found out that he has zero sperm and he's been elevating that information as

924
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:48,720
he and his wife, you know, try to have a family.

925
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:55,400
We also know that that PFAS changes sperm.

926
01:28:55,400 --> 01:29:01,720
PFAS mutates prostate genes.

927
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:11,600
PFAS loves blood, so it doesn't lay in the fat as much as it goes right into your organs,

928
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:22,480
your blood, and then it's recycled throughout every heartbeat in your blood system.

929
01:29:22,480 --> 01:29:32,220
Mick Tisbury, Commander Mick Tisbury from Melbourne Fire Brigade, he coordinated a

930
01:29:32,220 --> 01:29:39,920
brilliant study two years ago that was just published this year, I believe, regarding

931
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:42,360
blood drawdowns.

932
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:50,800
So the only way that firefighters can get this out of your blood, out of your system

933
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:53,840
is to give blood.

934
01:29:53,840 --> 01:30:01,360
Part of what he wanted was for that blood to not be put into blood banks for use, but

935
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:07,800
more so for blood study and for other ways that it can help the medical field.

936
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:11,840
But that's the only way that that can be drawn out of you.

937
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:21,760
And Dr. Peasley states that there is a brain cancer that only, I think he gave the odds

938
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:27,200
of one in four million people get it.

939
01:30:27,200 --> 01:30:34,840
He said, how come I know three firefighters with the same brain cancer?

940
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:48,600
So I know when the science community saw the numbers in the study, they were stunned at

941
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:56,360
how high the numbers of these PFAS chemicals are in our Last Call Foundation and Notre

942
01:30:56,360 --> 01:31:06,760
Dame study, because their replacement chemical is the C6 chemistry.

943
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:17,160
It's also one of the other PFAS, so replacement is PFBS.

944
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:25,120
And that is astronomical in number in your turnout gear, astronomical in number.

945
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:32,760
I had a conversation with one scientist who said, Diane, when I saw that, I literally

946
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:40,000
cried because those numbers are just so high, so high.

947
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:45,360
When I was watching Byrne's documentary, there's a scene, I think it's one of the other firefighters

948
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:50,920
that was talking about two of his friends he'd already buried in their thirties.

949
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:53,760
But the audience, and if you notice, they're all wearing masks.

950
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:58,160
One has got the dust mask from Lowe's, another one's got a little cloth mask that could have

951
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,480
been made from a piece of t-shirt material.

952
01:32:01,480 --> 01:32:06,160
And so this was the problem with the mismanaging or the misinformation or the downright lying

953
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:10,400
during COVID was, oh, no, this mask will be fine.

954
01:32:10,400 --> 01:32:17,200
You understand microorganisms, you know how small a flu virus is and what it can permeate.

955
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:23,520
In the fire service, the levels of fit testing we have to do for our N95 for a single use

956
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:27,600
versus grandma's knitted mask that you were seeing while someone was mask shaming someone

957
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:28,600
else.

958
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:33,680
So that being said, going back to the volleyball and tennis ball comment, talk to me about

959
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:39,160
the actual permeability of these PFAS family molecules.

960
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:47,240
So again, not scientist here can only tell you what I've garnered over the years.

961
01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:51,760
There is a brand new study out this year.

962
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:57,520
I don't know the name of the science team, but I did post it on my website.

963
01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:59,280
You'll see it there.

964
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:02,180
And it is about dermal absorption.

965
01:33:02,180 --> 01:33:16,400
So I'll first go back to July of 1980 and Rob Bellot produced a document on page 174

966
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:19,440
of his book, Exposure.

967
01:33:19,440 --> 01:33:26,440
By discovery, he found that DuPont knew that PFOA would permeate all protective equipment

968
01:33:26,440 --> 01:33:27,980
eventually.

969
01:33:27,980 --> 01:33:35,380
So those workers had to wear masks and protective equipment.

970
01:33:35,380 --> 01:33:37,520
You all never got that message.

971
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:41,640
By design, telling you right now, that's by design.

972
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:54,380
And in prior to the new C6 and safer PFAS, although Dr. Linda Birnbaum said they all

973
01:33:54,380 --> 01:33:57,240
are toxic.

974
01:33:57,240 --> 01:34:04,720
She was the head of National Institute for Health for 30 years.

975
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:11,040
Prior to the C6 chemistry, you had C8, C9, C10, and maybe C11.

976
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:14,400
I'm not sure.

977
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:22,760
When I did the first communication with Dr. Peasley in 2017 where he tested a set of new

978
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:32,240
never worn turnout gear circa 2004 that I purchased and sent him samples.

979
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:44,560
And he wrote back that email that said, these C8 and higher chemicals are more dangerous

980
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:53,040
than the newer replacement chemicals.

981
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:56,080
So they're more dangerous, they're more deadly.

982
01:34:56,080 --> 01:35:03,240
But that's what you all wore for all those years up until industry thought it could bamboozle

983
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:12,560
you by telling you, as Millikan did in 2018, I think they produced a shots fired paper,

984
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:20,160
or a white paper, and that was telling us the new chemistry that they use is 10 times

985
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:21,160
less toxic.

986
01:35:21,160 --> 01:35:23,920
And you goddamn well better be happy about it.

987
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:28,560
Well, I've seen as well labels that say they did not contain PFAS.

988
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:31,920
And going back to my conversation with Rob Belot, which for people listening was episode

989
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:39,000
631, what started happening is the moment there was an uproar about one, all they did

990
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:43,320
was just change the molecule slightly, give it a completely name, and now you can say,

991
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:48,440
oh, yeah, there's no PFAS, because now this is PFAS or whatever the next acronym is.

992
01:35:48,440 --> 01:35:49,520
Right.

993
01:35:49,520 --> 01:36:00,560
You've got that in all of your, every single manufacturer that has debated or interjected

994
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:10,480
their opinion in this has produced documentation saying they do not use PFOA or PFOS.

995
01:36:10,480 --> 01:36:15,200
What they don't tell you is they're using the replacement chemicals that some of the

996
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:19,320
chemicals, the precursors, I don't know what a precursor is.

997
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:24,640
I'm just repeating what the scientists are telling me, that the precursors are forming

998
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:29,680
PFOA in hours to days.

999
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:35,860
So they can technically say, we don't manufacture it, but we know it's there.

1000
01:36:35,860 --> 01:36:37,040
That's what has happened.

1001
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:45,280
That's why it's so important that you purchase PFAS free gear that is trickling its way out

1002
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:56,720
to you, that you become involved in the legislation, and that you listen to what President Kelly

1003
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:58,720
is doing now.

1004
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:00,600
He's got this.

1005
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:03,040
He's got this.

1006
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:08,840
He's working on the legislation to replace the gear.

1007
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:16,800
Senator Cory Booker has introduced legislation that's going to help firefighters by taxing

1008
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:26,240
or levying the gear manufacturers, firefighters like my husband who had cancer, and produce

1009
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:29,320
a stipend for them, if you will.

1010
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:35,200
They're going to do that by taxing the gear manufacturers.

1011
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:44,400
I don't think in America that you should get to make tremendous profits and then pay no

1012
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:51,240
penalty for the intentional poisoning of the American Fire Service.

1013
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:53,920
That's literally happening right now.

1014
01:37:53,920 --> 01:38:00,360
Paul is one of the 20,000 firefighters that are suing the gear manufacturers for these

1015
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:07,520
exact cancers that match the PFAS cancers that Rob and the C8 Science Panel found in

1016
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:08,520
2000.

1017
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:16,040
I forget if that was 2012 that they came out with their science panel study.

1018
01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:27,480
However, one of the aspects of that multi-district litigation is that prostate cancer is found

1019
01:38:27,480 --> 01:38:35,160
right now not to have enough science backing it that the judge in charge of the multi-district

1020
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:44,320
litigation is comfortable enough to have prostate cancer in that group.

1021
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:52,720
There's testicular cancer, kidney cancer, thyroid disease, ulcerative colitis, and I

1022
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:57,320
know I'm missing one in there, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, I think it is.

1023
01:38:57,320 --> 01:39:05,520
But prostate cancer, although we know is so prevalent in the fire service, is waitlisted

1024
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:11,200
for four years until causation can be determined.

1025
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:17,560
What I've seen, this is obviously from a different lens, is some departments or organizations

1026
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:20,360
jumping on this.

1027
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:25,320
What worries me about that, if it's a singular conversation, is it's extremely easy to point

1028
01:39:25,320 --> 01:39:27,000
outwards to DuPont.

1029
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,800
Now, that is exactly where the blame is and that's where we should be pointing.

1030
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:35,480
But simultaneously, the conversation needs to be within the department too, especially

1031
01:39:35,480 --> 01:39:38,000
outside of the Northeast.

1032
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:43,360
These departments that are working their people 56 hours a week, 80 hours a week with mandatory

1033
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:48,000
overtime, we know that sleep deprivation is a known carcinogen.

1034
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:54,520
I think that this conversation needs to also be parallel with the rest and recovery conversation,

1035
01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:57,800
which ironically, if you fix the things that are broken in the fire service, which is the

1036
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:02,280
working environment at the moment, hence the recruitment crisis, now you actually free

1037
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:07,720
up funds that ultimately will help whatever the outcome of this lawsuit in the meantime

1038
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:13,160
help you buy new bunker gear that is safe for your people.

1039
01:40:13,160 --> 01:40:17,680
This is what I think needs to happen is the PFAS conversation, a thousand percent needs

1040
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:18,960
to be out there.

1041
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:22,620
But as a department, you've also got to look in the mirror and go, what else are we doing

1042
01:40:22,620 --> 01:40:25,000
that's contributing to these cancers?

1043
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:30,160
It's very easy for you to just point your finger and do nothing yourself.

1044
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:35,920
That's what we never wanted to do, James.

1045
01:40:35,920 --> 01:40:43,240
Paul and I have always been so careful to say that the reason why we're so vocal about

1046
01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:55,120
this is because you, meaning the gear industry, DuPont, Lion Gear and others, made it your

1047
01:40:55,120 --> 01:41:01,040
mission to withhold that information, to withhold it.

1048
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:09,720
We've never said that all of these cancers are only from the PFAS and the turnout gear.

1049
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:12,960
Firefighters are smart people.

1050
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:20,680
When you talk about discussions and what is going on in your firehouse kitchen table,

1051
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:26,320
you start talking about all of these things.

1052
01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:33,920
The administrators at that table, because you will have administrators at that table,

1053
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:36,680
they start saying, oh shit, immediately.

1054
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:43,040
I'll tell you two things that happened in Worcester, Massachusetts.

1055
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:51,360
Karen Hensel broke this story to national news in Boston in September of 2018.

1056
01:41:51,360 --> 01:41:57,720
When we were filming in a Worcester firehouse about this issue, which we had cleared permission

1057
01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:05,560
with Paul's chief, Mike LaVoy at that time, and Paul had already retired by this time,

1058
01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:07,800
but we got permission from the chief.

1059
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:15,320
Karen and her film crew come in from Boston and we're all set up.

1060
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:20,080
The phone rings, in comes a firefighter, he's got a cell phone, Paul, it's the chief, and

1061
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:24,600
Paul says, yes chief, yes chief, okay chief, I understand chief.

1062
01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:27,160
Hangs up the phone, we got to go, that was the chief.

1063
01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:31,440
He says, legal is nervous.

1064
01:42:31,440 --> 01:42:33,120
Legal is nervous.

1065
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:38,640
Now we start working with Dr. Peasley.

1066
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:42,800
Dr. Peasley meets us in a Boston firehouse one day.

1067
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:46,920
He sees a dust collector in the firehouse.

1068
01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:51,240
Oh, I wonder if Emily Spirofine is collecting PFAS.

1069
01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:54,600
I say, I don't know, but I can ask her.

1070
01:42:54,600 --> 01:43:01,240
Sure enough, Emily is not collecting PFAS, but she wants to, and she is now communicating

1071
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:05,840
with Dr. Peasley, and we have 16 Boston firehouses.

1072
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:11,600
That was the groundbreaking study for the PFAS and dust.

1073
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:18,280
Karen Hensel wanted to collect dust from Worcester firehouses to be included in that study.

1074
01:43:18,280 --> 01:43:22,320
Our chief, Mike LeVoy, told her no.

1075
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:24,320
She wasn't getting his dust.

1076
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:25,320
Yeah.

1077
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:31,240
It goes back to why you're opposing something that's supposed to be helping the wellness

1078
01:43:31,240 --> 01:43:34,660
and performance of your people.

1079
01:43:34,660 --> 01:43:36,360
It will all come out.

1080
01:43:36,360 --> 01:43:43,840
Sunlight is going to shine on all of it, all of it, all of it.

1081
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:47,200
Do the right thing.

1082
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:50,440
I think at Jason Burns, you talked about Jason.

1083
01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:52,640
Oh my God.

1084
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:54,320
Jason has a story to tell you.

1085
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:56,680
It's not my story to tell.

1086
01:43:56,680 --> 01:44:06,200
But when Jason aligned himself so closely with me and was told not to, he paid a price

1087
01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:16,000
he is one of the most highly regarded firefighters that I know now in the nation.

1088
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:17,000
See?

1089
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:24,280
Well, this is even with what I did, and I didn't specifically leave just to have a bigger

1090
01:44:24,280 --> 01:44:25,680
voice.

1091
01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:30,240
My circumstances put me in a very complacent department that I just spent five years trying

1092
01:44:30,240 --> 01:44:31,240
to fix.

1093
01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:35,160
And it's funny, we were talking about activism before we hit record.

1094
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:41,080
Yeah, whistleblower, which is such a negative term in the way it's used.

1095
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:47,320
But ultimately, I realized once I did transition out, that that was when I could finally be

1096
01:44:47,320 --> 01:44:49,160
the voice for the fire service.

1097
01:44:49,160 --> 01:44:52,840
And again, it's not me, you know, monologuing, it's me interviewing other people, but asking

1098
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:57,540
the questions that everyone needs asked in an environment where no one can tell you,

1099
01:44:57,540 --> 01:45:00,840
you can't say that, you know, HR called or whatever, there is no HR.

1100
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,640
I'm HR for my business.

1101
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:07,480
But it's so sad that when you're talking about these, and even just to kind of go to something

1102
01:45:07,480 --> 01:45:14,480
trivial, fitness standards, the opposition by administrations, by unions, to simply have

1103
01:45:14,480 --> 01:45:20,420
a standard that makes you perform at the right level as a firefighter and massively increases

1104
01:45:20,420 --> 01:45:26,200
your chance of a healthy retirement, that that is opposed in our profession is fucking

1105
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:27,200
insanity.

1106
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:32,080
So this again, was said earlier, this organizational betrayal, which I would argue is just cowardice.

1107
01:45:32,080 --> 01:45:36,520
People climb the rungs of the ladder, but they've got no business being up there because

1108
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:39,720
they're not ready to actually walk the walk in that role.

1109
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:42,200
Yeah, 100%.

1110
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:43,980
100%.

1111
01:45:43,980 --> 01:45:48,640
We saw it at every turn of this, we saw great bravery.

1112
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:54,720
We saw very creative thinkers of, you know, fire departments and, and local unions that

1113
01:45:54,720 --> 01:46:02,480
were working in this to, to even to do the right thing, even though they, they knew that,

1114
01:46:02,480 --> 01:46:07,760
you know, there was going to be discussions and phone calls, et cetera, et cetera, in

1115
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:14,520
regards to how, you know, how, how close are you working with, with Carter, et cetera.

1116
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:16,360
And that's what happened to Jason.

1117
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:18,440
Again, it's his story to tell.

1118
01:46:18,440 --> 01:46:25,920
And I don't, I don't want to tell his story, but I know that Jason paid an early price

1119
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:29,640
for aligning with Paul and I.

1120
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:40,440
I think that Jason showed not only his brilliance, but his courage in that he will always do

1121
01:46:40,440 --> 01:46:48,560
the right thing, regardless of what anyone thinks his firefighters come first.

1122
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:51,240
That's what he did with us.

1123
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:52,520
That's what he did with us.

1124
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:58,840
Well, I want to get some closing questions, but just to round out before we do that, what

1125
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:00,080
needs to change?

1126
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:01,600
What are the things that you're pushing for?

1127
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:06,120
I'm more than happy if you want to name companies that are already creating the gear that is

1128
01:47:06,120 --> 01:47:07,400
going to be safe for us.

1129
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:11,120
So let's talk about the solutions now.

1130
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:18,160
So the solutions now, we just passed great legislation in Massachusetts, as I told you

1131
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:24,600
about earlier in our conversation, and that has to be replicated in every state.

1132
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:29,600
You have to sundown that gear in every single state.

1133
01:47:29,600 --> 01:47:37,240
I would ask you to please follow General President Ed Kelly on this issue because the IAFF is

1134
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:39,440
doing the work.

1135
01:47:39,440 --> 01:47:41,460
They are getting the work done.

1136
01:47:41,460 --> 01:47:47,680
They have a great page for you on the website, and there's legislation that your help is

1137
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:53,760
needed on the support that your voices are needed for.

1138
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:57,980
He's pushing for new generation gear.

1139
01:47:57,980 --> 01:48:01,320
Maybe you don't need to be in a fire for two hours.

1140
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:05,880
Maybe there are other types of materials that can be used.

1141
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:09,400
He's pushing for that.

1142
01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:17,800
For firefighters, you need awareness for your physicals on this issue.

1143
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:21,140
Again, you can look to the IAFF for that.

1144
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:23,280
Look to Last Call Foundation.

1145
01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:28,020
Kathy Crosby-Bell has a phenomenal page set up there.

1146
01:48:28,020 --> 01:48:33,600
We always ask for support for Last Call Foundation because Kathy came to our rescue when no one

1147
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:38,480
else wanted to deal with us.

1148
01:48:38,480 --> 01:48:45,440
There's a lot of work to be done still to get PFAS-free gear out there, but you should

1149
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:55,840
be looking at durable water repellents on your gear that are PFAS-free.

1150
01:48:55,840 --> 01:49:01,640
I always say safety components makes a PFAS-free DWR.

1151
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:03,680
You can find that on my website.

1152
01:49:03,680 --> 01:49:15,000
I'm not endorsed by anybody, so there's no perks or incentives from Mrs. Cotter.

1153
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:17,000
They work with Dr. Peasley.

1154
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:20,160
There are others that wouldn't work with Dr. Peasley.

1155
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:22,760
They didn't want to work with that guy.

1156
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:26,040
If you see it on my website, it's Peasley approved.

1157
01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:34,800
Brilliant.

1158
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:40,560
PFAS-free moisture barrier was introduced at FDIC earlier this year.

1159
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:43,240
You can find that as well.

1160
01:49:43,240 --> 01:49:52,400
The manufacturers are now doing what the body is asking for.

1161
01:49:52,400 --> 01:49:55,200
Couldn't this have been done before?

1162
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:57,640
Absolutely.

1163
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:08,600
I say that this issue, when you think about it, James, is backdraft meets radium girls

1164
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:12,920
meets dark waters.

1165
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:16,960
You had no idea, but they did.

1166
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:19,000
Beautiful.

1167
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,760
I want to throw some closing questions at you before we make sure everyone knows where

1168
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:23,100
to find you.

1169
01:50:23,100 --> 01:50:26,840
The first one I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you'd love to

1170
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:27,840
recommend?

1171
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:31,880
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1172
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:34,760
Oh, gosh.

1173
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:36,080
I love reading.

1174
01:50:36,080 --> 01:50:44,320
I have to tell you, the last book I read was kinder.

1175
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:49,520
Oh, my God, James.

1176
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:53,440
Oh, lavatory.

1177
01:50:53,440 --> 01:50:58,280
Oh, I can't.

1178
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:00,480
My heart.

1179
01:51:00,480 --> 01:51:02,400
My heart.

1180
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:03,400
It's beautiful.

1181
01:51:03,400 --> 01:51:05,400
Thank you.

1182
01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:08,640
Beautiful.

1183
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:12,320
I've always loved the book by Melody Beattie.

1184
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:16,600
Gosh, I can't remember the first name.

1185
01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:22,800
It was a great self-help book by Melody Beattie.

1186
01:51:22,800 --> 01:51:25,080
Wish I could remember it.

1187
01:51:25,080 --> 01:51:29,640
Has a lot to do with crossing the bridge.

1188
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:35,400
That was important to me because when my brother passed, I hadn't spoken to him for years.

1189
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:43,360
I remember the last words I said to him were, I'm crossing the bridge, John and Johnny.

1190
01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:48,040
I said, and I'll be here for you when you get here to that book.

1191
01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:50,040
Yeah, I love that book.

1192
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:51,040
Beautiful.

1193
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:52,040
Well, thank you for that.

1194
01:51:52,040 --> 01:51:57,040
What about films and or documentaries?

1195
01:51:57,040 --> 01:52:01,320
I grew up in a movie theater.

1196
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:08,240
My favorite, my all time favorite, Dr. Chewbacca.

1197
01:52:08,240 --> 01:52:16,280
When I was 10 years old, I learned, I memorized all the words to Dustin Hoffman's Little Big

1198
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:17,280
Man.

1199
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,280
Love that movie.

1200
01:52:20,280 --> 01:52:22,120
Documentary.

1201
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:26,680
I love documentaries.

1202
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:27,680
The Devil We Know.

1203
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,000
I mean, you got to see that.

1204
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:32,520
Stephanie Shotic.

1205
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:34,920
I think that's Atlas Films.

1206
01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:41,200
With Rob, Ken Cook and the folks that were poisoned by Japan.

1207
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:43,680
Yeah, beautifully done.

1208
01:52:43,680 --> 01:52:47,760
And then your documentary, Burned, Protecting the Protectors.

1209
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:51,000
If people want to watch that, where can they find it?

1210
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:53,400
Now you can get it on YouTube.

1211
01:52:53,400 --> 01:53:03,280
Elijah and Ethereal Films, Elijah Yediboman, along with our executive producer, Mark Ruffalo,

1212
01:53:03,280 --> 01:53:10,240
featuring Robert Blunt and of course, General President Ed Kelly and our team at Last Call

1213
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:11,960
Foundation.

1214
01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:18,960
Ethereal Films has produced this by putting on their YouTube channel.

1215
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:26,720
And Ethereal Films is also producing Gen X, a chemical cocktail, and they're going to

1216
01:53:26,720 --> 01:53:29,840
be crowd surfing that to do the same thing.

1217
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,480
So it doesn't have to go through any of the media sites.

1218
01:53:33,480 --> 01:53:39,000
It can just be put right there on the Ethereal Films YouTube channel.

1219
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:40,000
Brilliant.

1220
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:42,360
Well, I mentioned having Rob on the show.

1221
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:46,400
Actually, I've just reached out to Sam to see if I can get Ed Kelly on the show, because

1222
01:53:46,400 --> 01:53:52,240
I think putting all these to him now, this new administration, just being fully aware

1223
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:55,320
now of some of the things that were wrong with the previous one, I think it would be

1224
01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:57,200
an amazing conversation.

1225
01:53:57,200 --> 01:54:01,840
And outside of those two, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1226
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:06,400
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1227
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:07,400
world?

1228
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:18,160
I have to say Dr. Peasley, you know, he sits in every firehouse across the nation now.

1229
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:26,120
He makes science easy to understand, even though he is such a brain.

1230
01:54:26,120 --> 01:54:27,960
He's so much fun.

1231
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:28,960
He's wonderful.

1232
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:29,960
Brilliant.

1233
01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:31,840
You have to make that happen if you're able to help.

1234
01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:33,640
Of course.

1235
01:54:33,640 --> 01:54:34,640
Excellent.

1236
01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:35,640
All right.

1237
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:39,520
Well, then the very last question before we go to where we can find you, what do you do

1238
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:43,720
to decompress?

1239
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:49,560
I knit and I bird watch and I'm writing.

1240
01:54:49,560 --> 01:54:54,840
I'm writing the memoir, the memoir, Products of Deception.

1241
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:58,480
And when will we expect that?

1242
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:07,560
Right now I'm going through the process of speaking with a ghost writer who's very interested

1243
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:11,820
in this story, takes high profile cases.

1244
01:55:11,820 --> 01:55:15,960
So hopefully that comes to fruition.

1245
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:21,160
I think that when all is said and done, it would be probably two years before this is

1246
01:55:21,160 --> 01:55:22,160
out.

1247
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:23,160
Okay.

1248
01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:25,440
Let's do another interview when it does then.

1249
01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:29,840
So for people listening, where are the best places to find you as far as websites?

1250
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:32,080
And then what about social media?

1251
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:33,720
Yeah.

1252
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:38,920
So my website is your turnout gear and pfoa.com.

1253
01:55:38,920 --> 01:55:42,440
I have a lot of fun on Twitter.

1254
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:48,320
I'm a little bit more reserved on Facebook and I'm very seldom on Insta.

1255
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:50,360
It's the opposite.

1256
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:51,560
I'm on Insta most of the time.

1257
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:53,440
I have no luck with Facebook and Twitter.

1258
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:57,600
I took off my phone because it's just not my jam at all.

1259
01:55:57,600 --> 01:55:58,600
So all right.

1260
01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:01,600
Well, Dan, I want to say thank you so much.

1261
01:56:01,600 --> 01:56:08,520
We have covered a host of topics and I think it's been so important not only to hear obviously

1262
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:14,400
Paul's journey and your relationship and the impact of this disease, not only on his physical

1263
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:19,840
health but also on the relationships and mental health and all these other areas, but also

1264
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:25,360
bringing so much knowledge and being that indomitable spirit, that voice that refuses

1265
01:56:25,360 --> 01:56:29,040
to give up because there's an element of that that I can definitely relate to.

1266
01:56:29,040 --> 01:56:32,880
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1267
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:35,640
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1268
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:37,680
I'm so grateful, James.

1269
01:56:37,680 --> 01:56:38,680
Thank you.

1270
01:56:38,680 --> 01:56:39,680
God bless you for the work you do.

1271
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:40,680
We need it.

1272
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:50,240
Thank you.