1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,240
This episode is sponsored by BeaverFit.

2
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:04,400
And as always, this is another company

3
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,580
that I've not only been aware of for several years,

4
00:00:06,580 --> 00:00:08,320
but I also completely trust

5
00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,160
and I know is a great fit for this audience.

6
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,000
Having not only been a firefighter in my career,

7
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,560
but also a strength and conditioning coach,

8
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,200
I've seen the challenges that we have

9
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,560
getting the tactical athlete fit

10
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,120
when it comes to budgets, when it comes to space.

11
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,320
And BeaverFit has solutions for so many of our challenges.

12
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,220
When it comes to space, they have the gym box, for example,

13
00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:31,560
which is literally the size of a foot locker

14
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,400
that when you open it up and build it,

15
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,000
becomes a squat rack, a pull-up bar, a box,

16
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,640
and even a war ball target.

17
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,840
So you can get a full workout for a crew

18
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,720
purely on that one box.

19
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,240
Expanding out, they have storage containers

20
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,960
that become entire gyms.

21
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,560
You store everything in the inside

22
00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:49,920
and you can then deploy racks

23
00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,840
and pull-up bars on the outside.

24
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:53,460
They have gyms on trailers

25
00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:55,720
you can take from station to station.

26
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,080
They have tactical boxes with breaching props

27
00:00:58,080 --> 00:00:59,720
and collapse props.

28
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,000
And then on the flip side,

29
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,640
the durability is another issue that we see.

30
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,240
So often departments buy the low bid.

31
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:07,880
They are the cheapest they can find.

32
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,560
And ultimately that hard earned wellness budget

33
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,920
gets wasted in equipment that rusts and falls apart.

34
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,960
BeaverFit's gear is designed to be used

35
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:17,860
in the most extreme environments,

36
00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:20,320
whether it's the deserts of the Middle East

37
00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:22,520
or simply on the deck of a naval ship.

38
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,920
So they are designed to not only be outside,

39
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,000
but to be beaten up by some of the most elite operators

40
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,100
on the planet.

41
00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:30,960
If you wanna hear more about this company

42
00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:32,320
and I'm sure you do,

43
00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:35,800
listen to episode 477 with the original founder,

44
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,840
Tom Beaver from the UK

45
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,680
or the founders of BeaverFit USA,

46
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,200
Alex Rudehouse and Mike Taylor on episode 457.

47
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,760
Or visit BeaverFit USA

48
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,560
and click on the military and tactical tab.

49
00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:53,440
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

50
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,880
As always, my name's James Gearing

51
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,600
and this week it is my absolute honor

52
00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,440
to welcome on the show, Swedish psychiatrist,

53
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,600
international bestselling author

54
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,120
and TV personality, Dr. Anders Hansson.

55
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,680
Now in this conversation, we discussed a host of topics.

56
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,800
From his childhood in Sweden,

57
00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,240
his journey into psychiatry,

58
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,000
the detrimental impact of social media

59
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,280
on children and adults,

60
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,240
the importance of sleep,

61
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,840
ADHD,

62
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,200
the shame and guilt attached to mental ill health,

63
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,640
his latest book, The Happiness Cure and so much more.

64
00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:33,960
Now before we get to this incredible conversation,

65
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,100
as I say every week, please just take a moment,

66
00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:39,440
go to whichever app you listen to this on,

67
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,120
subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

68
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,000
Every single five star rating

69
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,400
truly does elevate this podcast,

70
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,240
therefore making it easier for others to find.

71
00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:56,240
And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.

72
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,720
So all I ask in return is that you help share

73
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,040
these incredible men and women stories

74
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,760
so I can get them to every single person

75
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,840
on planet earth who needs to hear them.

76
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,200
So that being said, I introduce to you,

77
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,160
Dr. Anders Hansson, enjoy.

78
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,160
Well, Anders, I want to say two things.

79
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,720
Firstly, thank you to Karina for connecting us.

80
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,840
And secondly, to welcome you today

81
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,520
onto the Behind the Shield podcast.

82
00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,160
Thank you, my pleasure.

83
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,600
It's nice to be here.

84
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,920
So where on planet earth are we finding you today?

85
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:51,960
I'm in Stockholm.

86
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,680
I'm in my apartment.

87
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,840
I live in Stockholm and I'm a psychiatrist

88
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,400
and I work part time as a clinician.

89
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,680
And the other half of my time is for writing

90
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,600
and then I write popular science books.

91
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,640
And I do some research at the Karolinska,

92
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,200
but my main job is to meet patients.

93
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:11,040
Beautiful.

94
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:12,560
Well, I would love to start the very beginning

95
00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,640
of your story before we kind of enter the world

96
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,760
of psychology and psychiatry.

97
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,280
Tell me where you were born

98
00:04:18,280 --> 00:04:20,560
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,

99
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,680
what your parents did, how many siblings?

100
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,880
I was born in Stockholm.

101
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,040
My mother was a nurse and father was a lawyer.

102
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,600
I had a rather normal upbringing, no big traumas.

103
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:35,920
I have a younger brother.

104
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,560
When I did not know what to do after high school,

105
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,400
I enjoyed lots of subjects.

106
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,640
So eventually I went into economics

107
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,640
and studied at Stockholm School of Economics

108
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,520
and did some internships at investment banks

109
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,600
and stuff like that when I was in my early 20s.

110
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,600
And then I realized I am not one of those guys.

111
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,880
That's not for me.

112
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,480
So then I went into medicine

113
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,520
and to finance my studies in medicine,

114
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,400
I started writing for a newspaper.

115
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,080
And then I discovered that I liked to write.

116
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,720
And I sort of found a passion in bringing scientific

117
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,360
knowledge, medical knowledge to the public

118
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,080
in a way that's easy to understand.

119
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,640
And that's what I've been continuing doing

120
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,520
in parallel to working as a psychiatrist.

121
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,960
And I do these books and I've done a number of TV programs

122
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,280
for Swedish television.

123
00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:28,680
And I just love to present this knowledge.

124
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,720
I think there's so much power in this knowledge

125
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,840
and this knowledge can be so healing in itself.

126
00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:34,600
It can be therapeutic, I think.

127
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,560
So that therefore I see great value in sort of trying

128
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,560
to educate people in these topics.

129
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:43,400
Absolutely.

130
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,600
Well, going back to your early years, the school years,

131
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,040
I've had a few people on here now from Scandinavia.

132
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,160
One of them is Pasi Solberg from Finland.

133
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,760
And when you look at just the health of the child

134
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,520
and a healthy education system,

135
00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,080
a lot of times it's Scandinavia that does it very, very well.

136
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,840
So when you reflect now with this lens that you have

137
00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:06,800
at your age, what were the good things about your schooling

138
00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,720
when you were little and were there any cons

139
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,360
of the Swedish system back then?

140
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,440
What I'm very glad is that I had the chance

141
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,640
to change my mind.

142
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,680
I studied economics and I was almost finished

143
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:19,880
when I went into med school.

144
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,360
And it would be impossible to do that in the US

145
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,440
unless you have very rich parents.

146
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,360
But here you could do that.

147
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:29,880
Education is free in Sweden.

148
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,160
And I'm so glad about that.

149
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,120
About that part in Swedish schooling system.

150
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,000
So just to underline that,

151
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,360
if you go through the regular school system

152
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,080
then you go into higher education,

153
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,840
that's all funded by the government.

154
00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:50,680
So Swedish men and women don't graduate from school

155
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,160
with crippling debt, is that correct?

156
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:54,000
That's correct.

157
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,120
You can borrow money from the state, so to speak,

158
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,640
in order to pay for your, as you study,

159
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,240
but that's for paying for food and rent and stuff like that.

160
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,560
So there's no tuition in Swedish universities.

161
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,280
And I think that's wonderful because that way

162
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,040
you make sure to use the human capital

163
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,640
that is obviously spread among different income groups.

164
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,840
No matter whether your parents can afford it or not,

165
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,440
you could still go to university.

166
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:22,520
That's fantastic.

167
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:24,840
What about sports?

168
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,040
What were you playing when you were a young man?

169
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,920
Football, soccer, and handball.

170
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,360
I love that.

171
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,560
I did that until I was about 15.

172
00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:35,560
And then I picked it up.

173
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,360
I still do it.

174
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:38,440
And I play some tennis,

175
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,720
but I'm more and more afraid of injuries.

176
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,640
As you get older, the risk of injuries becomes more severe.

177
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,760
But I do that and I run.

178
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,360
I don't like to run, but I do it

179
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,240
because I know how incredibly important it is.

180
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,240
So I tried to maintain active, fiscally active.

181
00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,560
I tried to do something almost every day,

182
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,960
but I would never dream of doing a marathon

183
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,480
or anything like that.

184
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,280
For me, exercise is about feeling as good as possible.

185
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,520
And functioning mentally as good as possible

186
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,160
because exercise has tremendous effect

187
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,000
on our cognitive abilities.

188
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,680
What about the kind of culture

189
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,680
of continuing to be active after school?

190
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,640
The reason I ask that, as we mentioned before we hit record,

191
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,320
I'm originally from England.

192
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,360
And at least when I was younger,

193
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,160
there wasn't this high, high level of performance

194
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,560
in high schools, unless you were an amazing footballer

195
00:08:32,560 --> 00:08:35,600
or the specific sport.

196
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,200
But when you graduated, people would still play sports.

197
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,560
There will be pub leagues and local leagues.

198
00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:45,600
So you'd see men in their 30s, 40s, 50s still playing.

199
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,320
In America, what I saw, and this is not everyone,

200
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,040
but a lot of them, they have this extremely high

201
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,160
performance level in school.

202
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,200
But then there's this massive drop off.

203
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,920
And I think it's because a lot of these young boys

204
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,720
and girls are physically and mentally burnt out

205
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,000
from this high level and they lost the joy

206
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,480
and even the physical capacity to play.

207
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,920
So what keeps Swedes playing after school?

208
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,320
Well, the sad truth is that most Swedes

209
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,520
don't play after school.

210
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,640
Physical activity has gone down in Sweden

211
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,080
and Sweden has become more like the US

212
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,920
in the sense that it's more competitive

213
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,640
in sports earlier in life.

214
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,080
You get picked to the soccer team, to the good team,

215
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,800
or either you're, or otherwise you're out

216
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,320
when you're 10 or 12.

217
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,920
And that was not the case when I grew up.

218
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,760
I think that's insane.

219
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,640
The role of physical activity is not to find

220
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,960
the next professional soccer player or whatever.

221
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,400
It's to feel as good as possible

222
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,920
and to function as good as possible.

223
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,920
Because exercise has nothing to do with sports really.

224
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,480
It's incredibly important for both the body and the brain.

225
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,680
And your habits of exercising are set in childhood.

226
00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:00,760
They're not set in stone,

227
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,360
but childhood is very important for that.

228
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,400
And we've seen in Sweden that young Swedes,

229
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,600
children and teenagers don't exercise

230
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:09,720
as much as they used to.

231
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,160
And that's probably partly due to the screen time.

232
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,080
The screen takes six to seven hours

233
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,280
for every teenager on average.

234
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,240
And that means that you simply don't have the time for it.

235
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,880
When you look back now

236
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,200
from a children's mental health perspective,

237
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,320
what was in place then?

238
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,920
And again, has that devolved?

239
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,880
Because I know social media definitely comes up

240
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,080
over and over and over again

241
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,640
when I talk about challenges

242
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,800
for children's mental health in 2024.

243
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,520
Yeah, I mean, when I grew up, mental health was not discussed.

244
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,720
If I, at all, if I heard the word anxiety,

245
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,720
I thought of a movie of Ingmar Bergman

246
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,040
or something like that.

247
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:52,840
If I heard the word psychiatry,

248
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,000
I thought of padded rooms.

249
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,920
So, and one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

250
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,400
Those were the images that crept into mind.

251
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,360
And today that stigma has been reduced.

252
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:04,680
And that is fantastic.

253
00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:06,560
More people are speaking about this.

254
00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:08,200
So that is great.

255
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,160
And more people are seeking help.

256
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,000
The problem is that even though more children

257
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,600
and teenagers are seeking help,

258
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,560
they are feeling worse than they used to.

259
00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:20,920
They're feeling worse than 10 or 20 years ago.

260
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,960
And that's not, you know, speculation.

261
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,920
That is actually a fact,

262
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,840
which is especially concerning given that more

263
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,760
and more are being prescribed medication

264
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,080
and more and more are given therapy.

265
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,960
And the part of your life where mental health

266
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,360
seems to have dropped the most is teen,

267
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,160
during your teenage years.

268
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,160
For girls between 12 to 14 and boys about 13 to 15.

269
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,960
That's probably because this is the time of puberty.

270
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,520
And in puberty, you want to belong to a group desperately.

271
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,920
And, you know, we have always compared ourselves

272
00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,760
to one another.

273
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,560
That's something that humans have always done.

274
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:03,920
And we ask ourselves, do I belong to the group?

275
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,560
Am I good enough?

276
00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:08,480
And that group was your tribe or your band

277
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,280
or your village for 99.9% of human history.

278
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,240
And when you and I grew up, that group was your class

279
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,600
and perhaps some other kids in school.

280
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,120
But that was about it.

281
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,120
And now you compare yourself to the entire planet.

282
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,360
You compare yourself to billions of people on Instagram

283
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,360
and TikTok and so on and so forth.

284
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,880
And there's always gonna be someone who's better than you,

285
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,760
who is better looking and smart or smarter

286
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,520
or richer or whatever.

287
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,520
And you get that signal fed into you six or seven hours

288
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,320
every day on your screen.

289
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,760
And that sense that it's registered in your brain

290
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,000
as I'm not good enough.

291
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,680
I don't belong in the group.

292
00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:52,520
And to belong in the group has for almost

293
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,720
all previous generations of humans been as important

294
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,520
as having food.

295
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,120
And to be pushed out of the group meant mortal danger.

296
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,360
So that's why we feel so bad when we are excluded.

297
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,760
The brain is warning us that we are in lethal danger,

298
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,720
even though we of course we aren't anymore.

299
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,720
And when we expose ourselves to this,

300
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:12,920
we get the same signal.

301
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,760
I don't belong to a group.

302
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,920
And deep down in your brain,

303
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,200
that is registered as something that might be a threat

304
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,480
to your life, even though it isn't of course anymore.

305
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,640
And that's why we feel so bad about it.

306
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,640
So I think that a big part of why teenagers

307
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,640
are worse off than they used to is due to social media.

308
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,320
And this is also not speculation.

309
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,440
This is actually solid science now that this is the case.

310
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,680
And another reason is that when you spend six or seven hours

311
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,720
every day in front of a screen,

312
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,880
you don't do the things that protect your mental health.

313
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,080
And what is that?

314
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,440
Well, that's sleeping.

315
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,040
That is exercising.

316
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,640
And more than anything, that's meeting people in real life.

317
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,040
So all these three protective factors,

318
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,440
sleep, exercise, and meeting in real life,

319
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,680
they are being eroded in today's society

320
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,040
in a way that makes us more susceptible

321
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,640
to mental health problems.

322
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,560
Well, you just hit all the pillars of health

323
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,080
that affect the first responders

324
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,400
in military communities as well.

325
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:15,480
So we'll circle around that.

326
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,320
I wanna get to your entry into psychiatry first,

327
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,200
and then we'll revisit many things that you've just said.

328
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,120
So you mentioned about going to economics.

329
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,080
You mentioned being in an education system

330
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,440
that actually nurtures young men and women

331
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,920
to be able to be the contributing elements of society,

332
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,360
which I think is such an amazing model.

333
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,480
And the thing I think that would work here is,

334
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:40,880
yes, if you were gonna go to college

335
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,640
and just waste your time and drink every day,

336
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,760
then you should be given the bill at the end.

337
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,240
But if you're gonna go like my son is at the moment

338
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,160
and pursue it and be working every day,

339
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,120
then I don't think that we should be giving

340
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,320
these young men and women this immense debt

341
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680
and starting them off on the back foot.

342
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,160
That being said though, you're in this great environment.

343
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,560
What made you shift to psychiatry

344
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,280
and then walk me through that journey

345
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:04,800
into that particular field?

346
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,760
I was in an autopsy room 24 years ago.

347
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,400
That was life-changing for me.

348
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,400
I stood and held a human brain in my hand.

349
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,160
And this, I remember this like yesterday still.

350
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,480
This is a very strong memory.

351
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,800
I'm holding this brain of a man who was 84.

352
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,520
And I realized at that moment

353
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,040
that everything he ever experienced,

354
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,760
every moment, every feeling, every memory

355
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,040
from the first childhood steps to his last dying day,

356
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,080
everything was in this object that I was now holding

357
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,040
in my hands.

358
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,040
And in a way, I was closer to his inner self

359
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,160
than he ever was himself.

360
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,200
And then in the next moment, I realized, of course,

361
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,200
that I have a brain and in my brain,

362
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,880
everything that I have experienced has occurred.

363
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,440
And then I decided I want to work with this organ.

364
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,480
And then I had two choices, neurology and psychiatry.

365
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,320
And neurology felt like it was headaches

366
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,760
and dementia and epilepsy.

367
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:15,800
It's a bit more than that,

368
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,120
but that's what my view were at the time.

369
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,880
And psychiatry felt that I felt that I had

370
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,440
sort of an existential dimension to it

371
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,560
that I was very attracted to.

372
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,920
So that's why I chose psychiatry.

373
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,240
And I never looked back.

374
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,960
I love my work.

375
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,800
How did you find yourself in the autopsy?

376
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,560
Were you supposed to be there or had you broken in?

377
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:36,400
No, I was there.

378
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,240
It's part of the scheme.

379
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,240
It was during my second term as a med school student.

380
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,480
But what I, I mean, I remember so strongly

381
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,480
that I could not grasp that your inner self, your soul,

382
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,520
your subjective experience is created

383
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,920
in something that looks like packed sausages.

384
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,880
It's really ugly.

385
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,880
It's not an attractive looking organ.

386
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,400
It doesn't pump like the heart,

387
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,600
doesn't do anything really.

388
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,920
It just sits there and it doesn't look

389
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,920
very impressive at all.

390
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,480
So I really thought about this.

391
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,000
How can your subjective experience be created

392
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:20,920
in this organ?

393
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,280
And I have no answer to that.

394
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:24,440
I don't think anyone has.

395
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,800
And I don't recommend anyone to think too much about it

396
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,680
because you will not get anywhere.

397
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,360
But what I really take away from that day

398
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,360
in the autopsy room was the fact

399
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,240
that the brain is an organ.

400
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,320
And just like the other organs, the heart, the kidneys,

401
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,320
the liver, it has not evolved the way it did by chance.

402
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,400
The brain doesn't show us the world, the way the world is.

403
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,840
It shows us the world the way we had to see the world

404
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,720
in order to survive.

405
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,120
It shows, the brain doesn't show ourselves as we are.

406
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,600
It shows ourselves as we had to see ourselves

407
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,000
in order to survive.

408
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,080
So the brain is not the passive middle step

409
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,640
that you could just skip

410
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,640
if you're interested in human nature.

411
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,000
It's not a neutral step that doesn't do anything.

412
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,800
It is by definition what human nature actually is.

413
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,320
So if you want to learn more about yourself

414
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,680
and about your behavior and about your feelings

415
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,520
and about human nature, you can't skip the brain.

416
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,320
That is something that I did not realize that day

417
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,320
in the autopsy room, but that has crept into me gradually

418
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,920
during the last two decades.

419
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,480
So walk me through that process then.

420
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,480
What was the initial kind of textbook entry to psychiatry?

421
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,000
And then when did you start kind of leaning

422
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,040
into this evolutionary side of it?

423
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,280
I was always interested in the big questions

424
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,720
and in the why questions.

425
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,320
And if you go to why questions in medicine,

426
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,120
you will end up in evolution.

427
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:11,680
That's just, I mean, we are the product of evolution.

428
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,040
And I asked so many questions,

429
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,760
so many colleagues and even patients,

430
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,640
why do we think we have a brain?

431
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,200
What's the brain's main job?

432
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,040
And some of them say, well, it's to experience things,

433
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,560
it's to feel things, it's to remember things,

434
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,280
it's to be creative.

435
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,080
And none of that is correct.

436
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,480
The brain's main job is to keep us alive.

437
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,960
The brain is a survival machine.

438
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,960
Its main job, the perfect brain is not the brain

439
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,360
that figures out the theory of relativity,

440
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,200
it's the brain that takes you to tomorrow alive.

441
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:51,300
And during 99.9% of all our history as a species,

442
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:56,300
half of all humans died before they became teenagers.

443
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,180
And they did not die from cardiovascular disease

444
00:19:59,180 --> 00:20:02,700
or cancer or stroke, which is what kills us today,

445
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:06,140
but they died from dehydration, infections,

446
00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:09,500
murder, bleeding, accidents.

447
00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,980
And that means that you and I and all of your listeners

448
00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:17,980
have behind them an unbroken line of survivors,

449
00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:22,980
because all of our ancestors lived until they became adults.

450
00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:25,980
Otherwise we would not be here, right?

451
00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:29,620
And that means that we are the descendants of the humans

452
00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:33,500
who did not die from infections, bleeding,

453
00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:35,940
murder, accidents.

454
00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:39,420
And therefore we have strong defense mechanisms

455
00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:43,460
against infections, bleeding, murder, accidents.

456
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:45,620
But we don't have any defense mechanisms

457
00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:48,540
against cardiovascular disease or cancer or stroke,

458
00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:50,740
because these things have just killed us

459
00:20:50,740 --> 00:20:53,140
for one or a couple of generations.

460
00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:58,140
And through that lens, I look at anxiety, for instance,

461
00:20:58,980 --> 00:21:03,500
because anxiety is basically stress in advance.

462
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:06,460
If my boss is yelling at me, I get stressed.

463
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:08,500
That's a threat here and now.

464
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:12,380
If I think maybe my boss will yell at me tomorrow,

465
00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:13,780
that's a threat.

466
00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:18,780
The same activity in the body, in the brain is activated,

467
00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:23,780
but in stress due to a real threat here and now,

468
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:26,500
and in anxiety due to possible threat.

469
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:31,500
And the brain loves to portray things as possible threats.

470
00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:32,580
Why?

471
00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:34,500
Well, that's because half of all humans died

472
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,180
before they became teenagers.

473
00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:38,700
And as I said, from accidents, bleeding, murder,

474
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:42,100
and infections, the ones who were carrying the disease

475
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:44,300
and the ones who were careful,

476
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,940
the ones who painted a very dark picture on the world,

477
00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:49,940
who saw danger everywhere,

478
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:52,180
they had better chances of survival.

479
00:21:52,180 --> 00:21:54,500
And they passed on their genes to us.

480
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:58,380
And since about 40% of your risk of becoming anxious

481
00:21:58,380 --> 00:22:02,260
comes from your genes, that's the actual number,

482
00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:04,940
it's not strange that there are people among us

483
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,340
who have anxiety.

484
00:22:06,340 --> 00:22:08,380
What is strange is that there are people

485
00:22:08,380 --> 00:22:10,100
who don't have anxiety,

486
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:12,900
and maybe they are the ones who should be diagnosed.

487
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,180
And then I always say that to my patients

488
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:19,260
that a strong pair of arms, they could lift heavy things

489
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:22,580
and a strong pair of legs can run fast,

490
00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:25,340
but a strong brain is not the brain

491
00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:28,820
that goes through periods of stress without being affected.

492
00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:32,820
It's a brain that wants to keep you alive at all costs,

493
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:34,940
even though it means that you are anxious

494
00:22:34,940 --> 00:22:36,980
or suffering from it.

495
00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:40,300
Now, by this, I don't want to trivialize anxiety in any way

496
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:42,340
because anxiety is hell.

497
00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:45,060
It can be devastating people's lives,

498
00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:47,980
but just to shift perspective and realize

499
00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:50,020
that you are not damaged good

500
00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:53,140
because you're suffering from anxiety or PTSD

501
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:55,180
or anything similar,

502
00:22:55,180 --> 00:22:58,100
it's your brain that wants to keep you alive.

503
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:00,260
And I think this is important

504
00:23:00,260 --> 00:23:03,820
because we constantly tell stories about ourselves

505
00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:08,820
and these stories becomes roadmaps on how we view our future.

506
00:23:08,980 --> 00:23:12,620
And if we view ourselves as sick, broken,

507
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:15,620
or lacking a certain neurotransmitter in the brain,

508
00:23:15,620 --> 00:23:18,780
we see ourselves as damaged goods.

509
00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,500
And I have seen how it can be

510
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,700
almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

511
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:25,980
I have anxiety disorder,

512
00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:28,060
I can't have a normal relationship.

513
00:23:28,060 --> 00:23:31,580
I have PTSD, I can't have normal work, et cetera.

514
00:23:31,580 --> 00:23:34,900
And that is why it's important to understand

515
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:37,300
that the anxiety and the pressures for that matter

516
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,660
is evolutionary defense mechanisms

517
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,180
without which humans would not exist.

518
00:23:44,180 --> 00:23:46,660
And these mechanisms can be fixed

519
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:49,300
and these mechanisms do not show

520
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,260
that you are broken or weak in any way.

521
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:55,300
I think that perspective shifting is very important.

522
00:23:57,660 --> 00:23:58,860
There's so much in there again

523
00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:00,980
that pertains to a lot of the things

524
00:24:00,980 --> 00:24:02,540
that a lot of the people listening,

525
00:24:02,540 --> 00:24:05,820
I wanna just kinda get your kind of journey

526
00:24:05,820 --> 00:24:08,420
through psychiatry and again, circle around to many of those

527
00:24:08,420 --> 00:24:11,380
because as you mentioned, PTSD or moral injury,

528
00:24:11,380 --> 00:24:13,820
there's a lot of other layers

529
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:15,260
for the first responder in military

530
00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:17,540
that the average person may not experience

531
00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:19,220
in their lifespan.

532
00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:22,660
When you entered the field and you started seeing patients,

533
00:24:22,660 --> 00:24:26,180
what were the groups that you started working with?

534
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:29,300
And then were there any kind of aha moments

535
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:31,420
that the textbooks maybe weren't showing

536
00:24:31,420 --> 00:24:32,980
some of the things that you were seeing

537
00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:34,100
and hearing yourself?

538
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:37,780
Yeah, when you do your residency,

539
00:24:37,780 --> 00:24:42,780
you work in different wards and you meet different patients.

540
00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:47,100
I was mostly interested in schizophrenia

541
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:50,580
and psychotic disorders because it was so obvious

542
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:53,500
that something was wrong in the brain

543
00:24:54,380 --> 00:24:56,660
and that something had to be fixed

544
00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:58,340
at least partly by medication.

545
00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:01,660
So I was very interested in that in the beginning.

546
00:25:01,660 --> 00:25:06,060
But what I also realized was how common these issues are

547
00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:09,220
and by that, I mean, depressions and anxiety.

548
00:25:09,220 --> 00:25:11,860
There were people who I would not dream

549
00:25:11,860 --> 00:25:14,620
have problems with this, who I saw

550
00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:16,820
and who told me severe problems.

551
00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:21,820
So then my takeaway message from that was the big stigma

552
00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:26,860
around these diseases.

553
00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:31,260
Everyone accepts that we are not in charge

554
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:34,540
of what happens in our kidneys, at least not fully,

555
00:25:34,540 --> 00:25:35,980
or what happens in our stomach.

556
00:25:35,980 --> 00:25:38,060
But for some reason, we believe that everything

557
00:25:38,060 --> 00:25:41,780
that happens in our brains is within our power to change.

558
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:47,140
And so one must understand that the illnesses of the brain

559
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:51,660
is not just dementia or Parkinson's,

560
00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:54,620
it's also depressions and anxiety.

561
00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:57,500
And these states are very, very powerful.

562
00:25:57,500 --> 00:25:59,500
You can never say to depressed patient

563
00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,180
that pull yourself up.

564
00:26:01,180 --> 00:26:04,540
That's as absurd as saying to someone with diabetes

565
00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:06,700
that they should pull their blood sugar up.

566
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,380
It doesn't work like that.

567
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:13,380
So the stigma around these illnesses is still so big,

568
00:26:15,580 --> 00:26:20,140
even though it's been reduced, it's still so big.

569
00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:23,500
And there's still this narrative that you should be strong

570
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:25,980
and that you should not seek help and stuff like that.

571
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:29,380
And that nothing could be further from the truth.

572
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:34,380
And in Sweden, we have 1,500 deaths every year

573
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:36,140
due to suicide.

574
00:26:36,140 --> 00:26:38,740
And a lot of those comes from people who are severely

575
00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:41,380
depressed and have not seeked help.

576
00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:46,380
And we still don't talk as much of suicide as we should.

577
00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:51,060
We have about 300 deaths due to traffic in Sweden

578
00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:53,340
and traffic safety is something that we talk a lot about,

579
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:57,700
but suicide is something that we hide under the blanket.

580
00:26:57,700 --> 00:26:59,740
And sort of many people seems to believe

581
00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:01,820
that it's a voluntary choice.

582
00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:03,580
And it can be in some cases, of course,

583
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:07,180
but in most cases it's the result of an illness.

584
00:27:07,180 --> 00:27:09,020
By that, I mean depression.

585
00:27:09,020 --> 00:27:10,100
Absolutely.

586
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:12,700
Well, I know in America, it's basically 40,000

587
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:15,660
that we lose to suicide, which I would argue

588
00:27:15,660 --> 00:27:18,100
were numbers that parallel early COVID.

589
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:21,020
Yet, as you said, there's no real exposure.

590
00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:24,380
There's no counter on the news, for example.

591
00:27:24,380 --> 00:27:28,300
But then if you extend into alcoholism and the opioid crisis

592
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:30,780
and all the other addiction side that is still part

593
00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:32,780
of the mental health crisis, now you're getting

594
00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:35,740
into the hundreds of thousands of Americans every year.

595
00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:39,260
And again, it doesn't get any real discussion

596
00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:42,740
or exposure at all, which is disgusting, I think.

597
00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:45,220
Yeah, and I think that partly is because of this

598
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:48,180
misbelief that everything that happens in our head

599
00:27:48,180 --> 00:27:50,020
is within our control.

600
00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:52,500
If we commit suicide, we want to die.

601
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,180
We have made this philosophical decision

602
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:55,420
and no one can change that.

603
00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:59,220
And that's just not as, it's not that simple.

604
00:27:59,220 --> 00:28:02,300
When we are in a, during a severe depression,

605
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:04,780
your brain functions differently.

606
00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:08,940
And I have seen that so many times as a psychiatrist,

607
00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:13,020
who people who have been, they have been at the darkest point

608
00:28:13,020 --> 00:28:15,940
in their whole lives, everything is black

609
00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:17,900
and they just want to die.

610
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,860
And then after three or four weeks after they have gotten,

611
00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:26,220
after treatment, they look upon it completely differently.

612
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:31,140
So we must understand that the brain is an organ

613
00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:35,180
and it can be function less, better or worse,

614
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:37,020
so to speak, during different parts of your life.

615
00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:41,500
And if it gets sick, the consequences can be lethal.

616
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:45,300
And my main advice here is seek help.

617
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:46,700
I can't emphasize that enough.

618
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,700
Seek help and seeking help is a sign of strength.

619
00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,260
I've been doing this for eight years now.

620
00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:54,780
I'm about to do, actually, this is probably roughly

621
00:28:54,780 --> 00:28:58,260
the 1,000th interview that I've done.

622
00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:00,820
So I am by no means an expert in anything,

623
00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:03,740
but I've got to hear people from psychology and psychiatry,

624
00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:07,300
but also hundreds of lived experience stories

625
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:09,580
and a lot of whom had near suicide.

626
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:11,380
Some even actually went through with their attempt

627
00:29:11,380 --> 00:29:12,980
and survived.

628
00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:17,820
And the darkness and the suffering that we kind of

629
00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:19,540
are aware of seems to be out there,

630
00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:22,780
but there's one other area that started surfacing

631
00:29:22,780 --> 00:29:24,340
over and over and over again.

632
00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:27,460
And it's basically being with nearly all of them,

633
00:29:27,460 --> 00:29:29,660
which is also feeling a burden,

634
00:29:29,660 --> 00:29:32,460
feeling like they are a burden to the people that they love.

635
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:35,580
And I started realizing that at that point,

636
00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:38,380
the brain has literally become miswired

637
00:29:38,380 --> 00:29:41,620
where their reality is skewed.

638
00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:44,900
And you take someone who is a police officer or a firefighter

639
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,140
or a member of the military who's literally signed

640
00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:48,060
on a piece of paper saying,

641
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:51,100
I will die for a complete stranger.

642
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:53,020
Now you get this perfect storm

643
00:29:53,020 --> 00:29:55,260
of all the contributing factors.

644
00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:59,020
And there's a belief that they are the cause

645
00:29:59,020 --> 00:30:00,420
of their loved one's pain.

646
00:30:00,420 --> 00:30:03,780
And if they selflessly take their own life,

647
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,860
their family would be happier.

648
00:30:05,860 --> 00:30:09,820
Now, the thing is to the healthy mind, that makes no sense.

649
00:30:09,820 --> 00:30:14,260
But to me, it reframes that suicide is cowardly selfish

650
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,180
to suicide is selfless and courageous

651
00:30:17,180 --> 00:30:18,940
because that person truly believes

652
00:30:18,940 --> 00:30:20,900
that they are the problem.

653
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:22,140
What about that perspective?

654
00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:24,060
Have you heard that a lot on your end?

655
00:30:25,620 --> 00:30:27,820
Yeah, I've heard that many times.

656
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:32,820
And it's a warning signal for suicide

657
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:38,020
when people in a depression goes towards this,

658
00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:39,460
I am worthless.

659
00:30:39,460 --> 00:30:43,100
I am this personality change

660
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:47,500
when they start to blaming themselves.

661
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,540
That's when they're entering a very dangerous part

662
00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:54,860
of a stage in a depression.

663
00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:56,220
I mean, a depression is basically

664
00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:57,900
that everything feels pointless.

665
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,460
Things that you don't like to do feels pointless.

666
00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:02,940
And this is nothing that goes on for a couple of days

667
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:06,580
because everyone has those days, but this goes on for months.

668
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:11,580
You are in a standstill, but if the pressures become deeper,

669
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,540
there's often a sort of self blame,

670
00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:18,540
which I, as a psychiatrist, look very severely upon.

671
00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:19,900
Then it must be treated.

672
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:21,860
Then one must do something.

673
00:31:21,860 --> 00:31:23,420
And this goes away.

674
00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:27,180
That's what I see over and over again.

675
00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:29,780
When you get treatment, when you get medication

676
00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:33,100
or therapy or exercise, or the best is to get all three

677
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:36,500
of them, it will start to go away.

678
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:38,660
And then you will look at it a couple of months later

679
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:42,020
and think, how could I, I mean, how was it possible

680
00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:43,300
that I was so bad?

681
00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:48,100
So yeah, but I guess you could see it the way you describe it

682
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:52,300
as well as an act of encouragement, but I would be,

683
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:57,060
I don't like to use the word courageous or brave or anything

684
00:31:57,060 --> 00:32:00,260
in the context of suicide.

685
00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:05,340
I see it more as a consequence of an illness.

686
00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:07,180
Yeah, and I'm not talking about it being brave.

687
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:09,740
Again, it's not brave to the healthy mind.

688
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:11,020
It's not what we're supposed to do,

689
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:12,980
but I think that's just the belief system

690
00:32:12,980 --> 00:32:15,820
because there's so many, the reason when there's stigma

691
00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:17,940
is because there's judgment around suicide

692
00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:19,980
and people say, how could you do that?

693
00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:24,700
And there was a tragically perfect case to underline this.

694
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:26,980
We had two police officers about a year ago now,

695
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:31,980
a young couple, the man, the father took his own life first

696
00:32:32,620 --> 00:32:34,180
and then I think it was barely a week

697
00:32:34,180 --> 00:32:35,660
that the mother took their own life

698
00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:37,980
and they had a baby boy.

699
00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,860
So to the healthy mind, like what are you doing?

700
00:32:40,860 --> 00:32:43,180
But at that point, one would assume again

701
00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:46,060
that these same kinds of things were going through their head.

702
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:47,580
Now to the healthy person, of course,

703
00:32:47,580 --> 00:32:50,220
now this poor child has got neither parents left

704
00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:51,220
and they're very vulnerable

705
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:54,660
and hopefully they're being taken care of by a loved one.

706
00:32:54,660 --> 00:32:57,820
But I think it just reframes that, how could they,

707
00:32:57,820 --> 00:32:59,500
they were so selfish, think about the child

708
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:01,700
because as you said, at that point,

709
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:02,940
in their distorted reality,

710
00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:05,460
they were thinking about the child, but in a different way.

711
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:07,100
And then you said about a warning sign,

712
00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:10,300
this is what I've, I talk about this all the time now

713
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,620
because I think this is exactly that, it's a red flag

714
00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:15,860
and that should be on the suicide posters

715
00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:17,460
and the conversations.

716
00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:19,820
If you are feeling like you're a burden

717
00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:22,220
and your family would be better off without you,

718
00:33:22,220 --> 00:33:24,620
that is absolutely the time to pick up the phone

719
00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:25,460
and seek help.

720
00:33:27,620 --> 00:33:30,460
Absolutely, that's a warning sign as clear

721
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:32,860
as if you're having chest pains.

722
00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:36,220
Or if you have problem breathing during an infection

723
00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:37,060
or something like that.

724
00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:41,660
That is, and it goes back to my experience

725
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:43,700
in the autopsy room, I think,

726
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,340
we think that everything that goes on in our brains

727
00:33:46,340 --> 00:33:50,580
is within our control, that we are the master of it.

728
00:33:50,580 --> 00:33:52,980
And if we commit suicide, well, that means

729
00:33:52,980 --> 00:33:55,420
that we have made a rational decision and we want to die.

730
00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:56,940
And it's just not like that.

731
00:33:56,940 --> 00:33:59,740
It's often a result of an illness.

732
00:33:59,740 --> 00:34:04,740
And that's why you have to look at the brain as an organ.

733
00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:07,580
And when you are in this state,

734
00:34:07,580 --> 00:34:09,940
when you are in this black hole,

735
00:34:09,940 --> 00:34:12,700
it's very, very difficult to see this from the side

736
00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:16,860
because these are incredibly strong biological state

737
00:34:16,860 --> 00:34:21,860
that doesn't get sort of tricked away by empty cliches.

738
00:34:22,700 --> 00:34:25,620
Like it's gonna get better soon or pull yourself up.

739
00:34:25,620 --> 00:34:26,660
It's not that simple.

740
00:34:26,660 --> 00:34:28,460
So then you really have to trust it

741
00:34:28,460 --> 00:34:30,940
that this is an illness.

742
00:34:30,940 --> 00:34:32,100
Doesn't feel like that.

743
00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:35,100
It doesn't feel like pneumonia or anything else,

744
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,780
but it is an illness and it will get better

745
00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:40,220
if I get treatment.

746
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:45,620
And I sometimes people say, well, you know,

747
00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:48,920
if you don't want to, if you have a loved one

748
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,440
who is in this state and they don't want to seek help,

749
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,060
well, then you have to help them.

750
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:56,140
Because everyone realized that if you have a loved one

751
00:34:56,140 --> 00:34:59,620
who has broken his leg, he can't walk to the hospital.

752
00:34:59,620 --> 00:35:01,260
You have to take him or her there.

753
00:35:01,260 --> 00:35:03,140
And this is the same with this.

754
00:35:03,140 --> 00:35:05,620
You have to get the people to seek help.

755
00:35:05,620 --> 00:35:07,700
You have to drag them there almost.

756
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,060
That's what being a friend is about, isn't it?

757
00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:14,540
You know, to take the real uncomfortable decisions.

758
00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:15,900
Absolutely.

759
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:17,920
Well, I would love to kind of unpack

760
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,780
many of the contributing factors to anxiety and depression.

761
00:35:21,780 --> 00:35:24,140
One of the realizations again, after, you know,

762
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:26,620
hundreds and hundreds of these conversations

763
00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:29,940
was the impact of childhood trauma

764
00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:32,780
on a lot of the people in uniform.

765
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:35,780
And the reason I say that is in the regular psychology world,

766
00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:37,260
it seems like that's more addressed,

767
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:41,220
but what has happened is when you are a firefighter,

768
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:43,180
they focus on, oh, you had that horrible fire

769
00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:44,420
or that horrible car crash,

770
00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:46,440
and that must be why you're struggling.

771
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,620
And there's not a discussion of what happened

772
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:51,700
for the 18, 20 years before you ever put that uniform on

773
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:53,220
in the first place.

774
00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:58,220
So talk to me about the elements of childhood

775
00:35:58,300 --> 00:35:59,860
that can then contribute

776
00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:01,820
to someone struggling later in life.

777
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:06,540
Yeah, so that goes back to the question

778
00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:09,060
why we have a brain, and we have a brain,

779
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:10,700
the brain wants to keep us alive.

780
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:15,700
And it comes, as I said, about 40% of your risk,

781
00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:18,580
whether you will be anxious or not, comes from your genes,

782
00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:21,140
but the rest is, of course, from environment.

783
00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:25,700
And if you grow up in an environment where you see danger,

784
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,340
where your parents don't take care of you and neglect you

785
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:32,740
or you witness abuse or things like that,

786
00:36:32,740 --> 00:36:36,220
your brain is registering that as I will live

787
00:36:36,220 --> 00:36:40,580
in an incredibly dangerous world, no one will help me.

788
00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:43,420
And then, of course, the brain has to see even more danger.

789
00:36:43,420 --> 00:36:47,340
It has to be even more vigilant for danger.

790
00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:49,660
And that means that you have anxiety.

791
00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:54,660
So the brain is adapting to its world, so to speak,

792
00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:58,180
and that world, the world that you live in is,

793
00:36:58,180 --> 00:37:02,540
part of it is set when you are a child, of course.

794
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:04,860
So it's not strange that you will become anxious

795
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:09,380
if you experience trauma as a child.

796
00:37:09,380 --> 00:37:10,660
Then everyone is different.

797
00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:13,580
Someone is more susceptible to this due to their genes,

798
00:37:13,580 --> 00:37:15,140
and someone is less susceptible.

799
00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:18,820
So you can't generalize about it too much.

800
00:37:18,820 --> 00:37:23,820
But what I always say to patients who have traumatic memories

801
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:28,820
is that I try to remind them that memories are not there

802
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:34,460
for us to get a recollection of the past.

803
00:37:34,460 --> 00:37:38,460
Memories are there to guide us here and now.

804
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:43,340
And if you have been in a traumatic experience as a child

805
00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:46,980
or as an adult, the brain will pick up that memory,

806
00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:49,780
constantly, because it wants to remind you,

807
00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:53,260
don't do this again, don't get in this situation.

808
00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:54,620
And if you are, for instance,

809
00:37:54,620 --> 00:37:56,780
you have experienced something traumatic

810
00:37:56,780 --> 00:38:00,300
when you were in the woods, for example,

811
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:02,500
then every time you walk into a forest

812
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,740
or every time you walk into to see a tree,

813
00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:07,820
the brain will pick up that memory to remind you,

814
00:38:07,820 --> 00:38:09,420
don't do this again.

815
00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:11,500
It's trying to keep you alive, remember.

816
00:38:12,620 --> 00:38:16,620
So I think post-traumatic stress can be a big problem

817
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:21,620
and post-traumatic stress can be seen as warning signals

818
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:25,620
and they come as flashbacks and they come as nightmares

819
00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:28,780
and they're of course incredibly painful.

820
00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:32,860
But to see them as warning signals shows

821
00:38:32,860 --> 00:38:36,100
that the brain is not trying to hurt you.

822
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:37,500
It's not because you're weak,

823
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:39,900
it's because you have a very strong brain

824
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:42,620
that wants to protect you from this happening again.

825
00:38:42,620 --> 00:38:44,580
And if it were to happen again,

826
00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:46,780
you would have dealt with it the last time

827
00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:48,740
because obviously you survived.

828
00:38:48,740 --> 00:38:53,740
And this also gives us a clue to why therapy is so important

829
00:38:53,820 --> 00:38:56,500
because as I said, the role of memories

830
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:58,820
is to guide us here and now.

831
00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:02,740
And every time we bring up a memory, we think about it,

832
00:39:02,740 --> 00:39:05,540
the state we are in in the moment

833
00:39:05,540 --> 00:39:08,660
is rubbing itself off on the memory.

834
00:39:08,660 --> 00:39:11,340
So if we think of a traumatic memory

835
00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:13,380
in a state where we are calm,

836
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:16,860
the memory becomes slightly less traumatic.

837
00:39:16,860 --> 00:39:18,820
And if we think of a memory in a state

838
00:39:18,820 --> 00:39:20,260
where we are very anxious,

839
00:39:20,260 --> 00:39:25,260
the memory will become more frightening to us.

840
00:39:26,380 --> 00:39:30,940
So, and that is something that you exploit in therapy

841
00:39:30,940 --> 00:39:32,980
for post-traumatic stress.

842
00:39:32,980 --> 00:39:35,260
You talk about traumatic things

843
00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:38,020
in a setting where you feel calm

844
00:39:38,020 --> 00:39:40,060
and then it will rub off on the memory

845
00:39:40,060 --> 00:39:42,380
and start to become less frightening

846
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:45,980
and then possibly more neutral.

847
00:39:45,980 --> 00:39:48,220
And the question is then you might think,

848
00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:49,580
why are we built that way?

849
00:39:49,580 --> 00:39:50,740
That's rather strange.

850
00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:53,660
And I think it has evolutionary reasons.

851
00:39:53,660 --> 00:39:57,660
If you go into the woods and you get attacked by a bear

852
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:00,140
or a wolf or something,

853
00:40:00,140 --> 00:40:05,140
then the brain creates a very strong memory of that event,

854
00:40:05,180 --> 00:40:08,340
a memory in high resolution.

855
00:40:08,340 --> 00:40:10,500
And every time you experience something

856
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:12,140
that is the least similar,

857
00:40:12,140 --> 00:40:14,340
every time you go to the same place in the woods

858
00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:15,780
or even see a tree,

859
00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:20,220
that memory is triggered and you relive the experience.

860
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:23,540
Now, if you were to go back to the same place

861
00:40:23,540 --> 00:40:24,860
in the woods again,

862
00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:27,740
and there's no bear or there's no wolf this time,

863
00:40:28,740 --> 00:40:31,900
then the memory will slightly change.

864
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:35,300
And if you go back a hundred times and nothing happens,

865
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:39,220
then the memory will become less threatening.

866
00:40:39,220 --> 00:40:43,340
And that is because the role of memories are to guide us

867
00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:45,260
in the here and now.

868
00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:49,340
And if you have been to one place in the forest 100 times

869
00:40:49,340 --> 00:40:51,860
and there's just been one attack of a bear,

870
00:40:51,860 --> 00:40:54,500
there are good chances that there will not be an attack

871
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:56,740
the 101st time you get there.

872
00:40:56,740 --> 00:41:00,220
So memories gets constantly updated

873
00:41:00,220 --> 00:41:03,220
to be a good guide for the here and now.

874
00:41:03,220 --> 00:41:05,420
And that is what you're exploiting

875
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:08,180
when you are talking about difficult things

876
00:41:08,180 --> 00:41:10,420
in a setting where you feel safe,

877
00:41:10,420 --> 00:41:14,140
such as talking about it to a friend or to a therapist.

878
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:18,580
And that's also why you should not hide bad,

879
00:41:18,580 --> 00:41:20,300
put bad memories under a stone

880
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:22,140
or under the blanket, so to speak,

881
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:24,060
and not try to forget about them,

882
00:41:24,060 --> 00:41:25,780
because then they will never change.

883
00:41:25,780 --> 00:41:27,620
Then they will be set in stone.

884
00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:30,660
One conversation that I absolutely love at the moment

885
00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:32,500
when it comes to mental health,

886
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,140
certainly in the professions listening,

887
00:41:35,140 --> 00:41:37,700
is the concept of post-traumatic growth.

888
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:39,580
I think when we talked about stigma,

889
00:41:39,580 --> 00:41:41,260
we in our professions at least,

890
00:41:41,260 --> 00:41:43,140
kind of got hung up on the word stigma.

891
00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:44,860
We've got to smash the stigma.

892
00:41:44,860 --> 00:41:47,460
And that doesn't talk about treatment modalities

893
00:41:47,460 --> 00:41:50,540
and access to help and all these kinds of things,

894
00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:53,300
but it also doesn't put hope into the conversation.

895
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:55,380
You're almost left with, well, kind of like you said,

896
00:41:55,380 --> 00:41:57,740
I'm gonna live with my nightmares, my flashbacks,

897
00:41:57,740 --> 00:42:00,380
and I'll get a dog and I'll get some pills

898
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:02,780
and I'll just stay there.

899
00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:05,300
What I have witnessed from so many people

900
00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:07,940
that have done the work and whatever their personal toolbox

901
00:42:07,940 --> 00:42:10,900
has looked like, they've come through the other side

902
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,220
and they've become almost like a beacon of light

903
00:42:13,220 --> 00:42:14,340
for other people.

904
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:17,020
And they seem like they are a better version of themselves,

905
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:18,980
a more resilient version.

906
00:42:18,980 --> 00:42:21,900
And when you describe what you just did

907
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:24,540
and these flashbacks and things now just become

908
00:42:24,540 --> 00:42:28,580
a little kind of a booklet of safety,

909
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:31,340
I can see how now the trauma becomes a strength.

910
00:42:31,340 --> 00:42:35,620
So what is your kind of perspective on that?

911
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:38,620
I think it's true in many cases, but not always.

912
00:42:38,620 --> 00:42:42,940
It depends on your personality.

913
00:42:42,940 --> 00:42:46,020
Yes, some people can grow from this.

914
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:49,300
And in the long run, perhaps that group is rather big,

915
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:53,780
but short and middle term, it's not just, you know,

916
00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:55,660
what doesn't kill you make you stronger.

917
00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:59,060
It's not that simple, I think.

918
00:42:59,060 --> 00:43:06,180
But I like the idea that there can be growth in it.

919
00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:08,420
I certainly like that idea.

920
00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:10,820
And I think it's true, but not for everyone.

921
00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:14,220
Going back to the elements of childhood, two things.

922
00:43:14,220 --> 00:43:17,460
Firstly, I've heard people now talking

923
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:20,220
with the whole epigenetics conversation now

924
00:43:20,220 --> 00:43:24,980
that trauma can be in vitro or even one generation past

925
00:43:24,980 --> 00:43:28,340
because if it's a female child, then they actually

926
00:43:28,340 --> 00:43:31,260
have eggs at that point as well.

927
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:34,060
So from a genetics point of view,

928
00:43:34,060 --> 00:43:35,900
from an unborn child point of view,

929
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:38,380
what is the impact of trauma on the mother

930
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:44,740
to even an unborn child and their kind of lifeline?

931
00:43:44,740 --> 00:43:45,940
I don't know.

932
00:43:45,940 --> 00:43:48,420
I haven't read the...

933
00:43:48,420 --> 00:43:51,660
I haven't looked at those studies for the last five years.

934
00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:53,220
I'm not sure.

935
00:43:53,220 --> 00:43:59,260
But the idea here is that nature is tailoring us

936
00:43:59,260 --> 00:44:03,140
to our surroundings.

937
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,180
So if we live in a dangerous world,

938
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:08,660
the threat sensitivity will be amped up

939
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,740
because no one will help us.

940
00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:14,340
And I think the idea here is that you don't just

941
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:17,300
have your childhood, but you have your mother's

942
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:20,460
or father's lives or grandparents' lives.

943
00:44:20,460 --> 00:44:25,100
All of that is showing what kind of world that you will live in.

944
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:28,140
So that if your mother experienced severe trauma,

945
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:32,620
that probably means that you will live in a dangerous world.

946
00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:35,660
That would be sort of an evolutionary logic behind this.

947
00:44:35,660 --> 00:44:42,660
But how much effect it has, I'm not up to that science.

948
00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:43,780
So I don't dare to say.

949
00:44:43,780 --> 00:44:46,020
But there's definitely logic behind it.

950
00:44:46,020 --> 00:44:48,140
Well, switching then to people who are already born,

951
00:44:48,140 --> 00:44:50,100
who are already alive.

952
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,100
I, again, it's just so interesting doing this podcast

953
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:54,540
because it's like a Venn diagram.

954
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:56,260
And you start to see overlaps.

955
00:44:56,260 --> 00:44:58,260
And there's obviously truths amongst those.

956
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:00,340
Because these people are all walks of life,

957
00:45:00,340 --> 00:45:01,900
all over the world.

958
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:07,460
But there's a romanticizing of the World War II generation.

959
00:45:07,460 --> 00:45:09,620
In America, they call it the greatest generation.

960
00:45:09,620 --> 00:45:10,740
They just came back from war.

961
00:45:10,740 --> 00:45:11,780
They rolled up their sleeves.

962
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:12,900
And they went back to work.

963
00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:14,220
And they were amazing.

964
00:45:14,220 --> 00:45:16,860
But then when you start interviewing people,

965
00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:19,780
and so if they're our age, it was usually grandparents,

966
00:45:19,780 --> 00:45:22,020
you realize that granddad wasn't OK.

967
00:45:22,020 --> 00:45:24,980
A lot of times, granddad was an alcoholic.

968
00:45:24,980 --> 00:45:26,340
He was a domestic abuser.

969
00:45:26,340 --> 00:45:27,300
He was all these things.

970
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,020
And again, we know why.

971
00:45:29,020 --> 00:45:33,580
Because what happened in Europe, what happened in the Pacific

972
00:45:33,580 --> 00:45:34,900
was absolutely horrendous.

973
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:36,620
And like you said, I'm sure they weren't

974
00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:40,820
talking about moral injury and psychiatry back then.

975
00:45:40,820 --> 00:45:44,220
So what I've seen, and it may go way past that,

976
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:46,620
is this multi-generational trauma certainly

977
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:49,740
steeped in World War II, if not prior to that.

978
00:45:49,740 --> 00:45:52,540
What are you observing about that, the domino effect that's

979
00:45:52,540 --> 00:45:56,780
still affecting us today in 2024?

980
00:45:56,780 --> 00:46:01,180
Yeah, I've seen that many times, a social heritage that

981
00:46:01,180 --> 00:46:02,540
goes through the generations.

982
00:46:02,540 --> 00:46:04,860
And then it's very difficult to actually say what's

983
00:46:04,860 --> 00:46:06,980
environment and what's genes.

984
00:46:06,980 --> 00:46:13,420
Those effects are sometimes tricky to untangle.

985
00:46:13,420 --> 00:46:18,500
But what I would like is that everyone who have a work where

986
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,300
they might experience severe trauma,

987
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:22,980
if you're a firefighter, if you're a police officer,

988
00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:26,140
and so on, that you learn more about this.

989
00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:28,500
Because if you experience something traumatic,

990
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:31,540
then it's good to know that, OK, now this

991
00:46:31,540 --> 00:46:34,460
is a memory that my brain will replay for me,

992
00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:37,020
not because I'm damaged, not because I'm broken,

993
00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:39,100
because it's trying to help me to survive.

994
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:40,500
So I can almost expect this.

995
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:43,900
And if you then experience it, it becomes less threatening,

996
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,580
because you know what's coming.

997
00:46:47,580 --> 00:46:51,380
So that's why I think it's important to spread

998
00:46:51,380 --> 00:46:57,620
this knowledge to people who work in fields where they might

999
00:46:57,620 --> 00:46:59,700
experience trauma.

1000
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:01,740
One more area of childhood, then we'll move forward.

1001
00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:05,300
But it seems far less acute.

1002
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:08,660
But when you start unpacking these people's early lives,

1003
00:47:08,660 --> 00:47:10,660
you realize that there's definitely

1004
00:47:10,660 --> 00:47:13,940
a subconscious detrimental element to it.

1005
00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:18,780
Is a child who was fostered, was adopted, one or both parents

1006
00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:21,660
may have walked out now they're living with grandparents.

1007
00:47:21,660 --> 00:47:24,540
This feeling of abandonment, this feeling of I'm not good

1008
00:47:24,540 --> 00:47:27,100
enough, seems to be very insidious,

1009
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:31,980
but it's not easily identified to the average person.

1010
00:47:31,980 --> 00:47:32,660
Absolutely.

1011
00:47:32,660 --> 00:47:35,220
And I mean, if you think about it, it makes sense.

1012
00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:39,660
If you are abandoned, your brain, the growing brain,

1013
00:47:39,660 --> 00:47:43,020
gets the signal that the world that I will live in

1014
00:47:43,020 --> 00:47:47,140
is dangerous, and no one will take care of me.

1015
00:47:47,140 --> 00:47:50,300
So I have to see danger everywhere.

1016
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:52,460
I have to plan for the worst all the time.

1017
00:47:52,460 --> 00:47:54,740
And to see danger everywhere, plan for the worst

1018
00:47:54,740 --> 00:47:57,980
all the time, that's what we call anxiety.

1019
00:47:57,980 --> 00:47:59,860
Why do you feel worthless?

1020
00:47:59,860 --> 00:48:03,060
I think that's a defense mechanism also,

1021
00:48:03,060 --> 00:48:08,260
because danger for humans was not just lions and tigers,

1022
00:48:08,260 --> 00:48:11,500
it was conflict with other humans.

1023
00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:14,460
And how do you save yourself from conflicts?

1024
00:48:14,460 --> 00:48:15,620
Well, you bow your head.

1025
00:48:15,620 --> 00:48:16,820
You say, I'm not good enough.

1026
00:48:16,820 --> 00:48:17,340
I'm not good.

1027
00:48:17,340 --> 00:48:19,300
I'm not going to avoid.

1028
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:24,020
And then that's so if your self-confidence is eroded,

1029
00:48:24,020 --> 00:48:29,780
that can actually be a way to avoid a conflict.

1030
00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:34,340
And I think that's the reason why I think such an upbringing

1031
00:48:34,340 --> 00:48:38,940
can have consequences on your self-confidence.

1032
00:48:38,940 --> 00:48:42,500
And that's why it's so important to understand your brain

1033
00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:45,300
functioning this way, because if you do that,

1034
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,420
you can sort of call the bluff of the brain.

1035
00:48:48,420 --> 00:48:52,500
You realize, it's just my brain who wants me to be afraid.

1036
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:56,420
It's just my brain who gives me this bad self-confidence

1037
00:48:56,420 --> 00:48:59,220
because it wants to help me avoid conflict.

1038
00:48:59,220 --> 00:49:02,860
That doesn't make sense today in our world,

1039
00:49:02,860 --> 00:49:06,260
but for almost all previous generations of humans,

1040
00:49:06,260 --> 00:49:09,580
that made a lot of sense in terms of survival.

1041
00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:12,020
And remember, the brain has not changed,

1042
00:49:12,020 --> 00:49:16,580
or at least changed very little during the last 10,000 years.

1043
00:49:16,580 --> 00:49:20,220
We are still adapted to a life on the savanna.

1044
00:49:20,220 --> 00:49:23,140
And the main job, as I said, of the brain is to keep us alive.

1045
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:28,020
And I think if you go in therapy,

1046
00:49:28,020 --> 00:49:30,380
regardless of what you're there for,

1047
00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:35,060
a big part of it is to see yourself from a distance,

1048
00:49:35,060 --> 00:49:38,540
to try to get a helicopter perspective on yourself.

1049
00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:40,180
And that's very difficult to do.

1050
00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:41,460
That's incredibly difficult.

1051
00:49:41,460 --> 00:49:45,220
And then you could use the brain as a vehicle

1052
00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:48,420
for seeing yourself from the side, so to speak.

1053
00:49:48,420 --> 00:49:51,460
Ah, it's just my brain who wants me to be afraid.

1054
00:49:51,460 --> 00:49:54,500
It's just my brain who gives me bad self-confidence

1055
00:49:54,500 --> 00:50:01,020
because it helped our previous generations to avoid conflict.

1056
00:50:01,020 --> 00:50:04,660
And then you call the bluff of the brain, so to speak.

1057
00:50:04,660 --> 00:50:05,500
I love that.

1058
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:06,420
Absolutely.

1059
00:50:06,420 --> 00:50:08,980
Well, I know that you've written a book on ADHD.

1060
00:50:08,980 --> 00:50:11,060
I worked on summer camps in America.

1061
00:50:11,060 --> 00:50:13,740
It's actually the beginning of me moving over here.

1062
00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:15,300
It was an exchange program.

1063
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:18,140
And the very first year, I remember,

1064
00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:19,380
I was friends with the nurse.

1065
00:50:19,380 --> 00:50:20,940
She was English as well.

1066
00:50:20,940 --> 00:50:22,620
And the first day the kids were there,

1067
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:24,300
there was this line around the building.

1068
00:50:24,300 --> 00:50:26,380
This is 1994.

1069
00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:28,620
And I went in, I'm like, what's going on?

1070
00:50:28,620 --> 00:50:29,500
Is everyone ill?

1071
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:31,900
And she said, no, it's for their Ritalin.

1072
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:33,700
And I was like, well, what's Ritalin?

1073
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:34,820
And she says, for ADD.

1074
00:50:34,820 --> 00:50:36,260
And I'm like, well, what's ADD?

1075
00:50:36,260 --> 00:50:37,860
I didn't know what it was.

1076
00:50:37,860 --> 00:50:40,300
And this, I mean, we're talking tens and tens and tens

1077
00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:42,980
of these campers lining up for their Ritalin.

1078
00:50:42,980 --> 00:50:45,060
And that blew me away.

1079
00:50:45,060 --> 00:50:47,900
Since then, as we've progressed forward,

1080
00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:50,660
this has become more and more of a conversation.

1081
00:50:50,660 --> 00:50:53,700
I would assume that there are groups

1082
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:57,220
that are truly ADHD, that need medication.

1083
00:50:57,220 --> 00:51:00,220
I've had many adults on here who, you know,

1084
00:51:00,220 --> 00:51:01,580
they still take them to this day.

1085
00:51:01,580 --> 00:51:02,980
And then I would assume that some of them

1086
00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:05,220
were also related to diet, lack of exercise,

1087
00:51:05,220 --> 00:51:06,140
that kind of thing too.

1088
00:51:06,140 --> 00:51:12,140
So talk to me about the world of ADHD through your eyes.

1089
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:15,620
Well, ADHD mean that you have problems with your focus.

1090
00:51:15,620 --> 00:51:16,940
You have problems concentrating.

1091
00:51:16,940 --> 00:51:18,220
And you are impulsive.

1092
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:20,380
And you are hyperactive.

1093
00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:22,940
And this is, of course, not either or.

1094
00:51:22,940 --> 00:51:26,540
Everyone has more or less of these problems.

1095
00:51:26,540 --> 00:51:29,700
So I think we are all on an ADHD scale.

1096
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:32,500
And what has happened during the last two decades

1097
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:34,780
is that more people have been diagnosed.

1098
00:51:34,780 --> 00:51:38,540
That does not mean that there are more symptoms of ADHD.

1099
00:51:38,540 --> 00:51:40,580
That actually seems to be constant

1100
00:51:40,580 --> 00:51:42,660
during the last decades.

1101
00:51:42,660 --> 00:51:46,020
But more and more are being recognized and prescribed

1102
00:51:46,020 --> 00:51:46,980
with medication.

1103
00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:51,260
And in Sweden, about one in 10 teenage boys

1104
00:51:51,260 --> 00:51:53,660
are being prescribed with medication.

1105
00:51:53,660 --> 00:51:55,780
And medication can be good.

1106
00:51:55,780 --> 00:51:58,820
It can reduce the risk of injuries, of accidents,

1107
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:00,900
of drug abuse.

1108
00:52:00,900 --> 00:52:02,180
So it can be good.

1109
00:52:02,180 --> 00:52:10,500
But I think maybe there's been too much focus on medication

1110
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,140
and not other things.

1111
00:52:13,140 --> 00:52:16,580
And I know that some US states, 20% of all children

1112
00:52:16,580 --> 00:52:20,180
are being medicated.

1113
00:52:20,180 --> 00:52:25,100
So medication is a tricky question.

1114
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,900
But I see ADHD through the lens of evolution.

1115
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:31,620
And to constantly scan your surroundings,

1116
00:52:31,620 --> 00:52:33,940
to constantly see what's there, what's there, what's there,

1117
00:52:33,940 --> 00:52:37,300
that was probably very important for previous generations

1118
00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:38,540
of humans.

1119
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:42,060
So ADHD, it's not strange that people have ADHD.

1120
00:52:42,060 --> 00:52:45,420
And what is interesting is that those individuals

1121
00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:47,340
are more creative.

1122
00:52:47,340 --> 00:52:50,140
That's been shown in many studies.

1123
00:52:50,140 --> 00:52:55,180
So there are advantages of it also.

1124
00:52:55,180 --> 00:52:58,300
And I think we need to look at those advantages

1125
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:01,980
and not just see the problems.

1126
00:53:01,980 --> 00:53:04,900
And I wrote a book about that called Unlocking the ADHD

1127
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:06,500
Advantage.

1128
00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:08,460
When I hear the autism conversation,

1129
00:53:08,460 --> 00:53:09,500
I feel it's the same thing.

1130
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:11,620
Like you said, we're all on a spectrum.

1131
00:53:11,620 --> 00:53:14,500
But you've got the people who are truly autistic that

1132
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,900
need the therapies and the medications if needed.

1133
00:53:17,900 --> 00:53:20,700
And then there's certainly on the other scale,

1134
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:23,980
elements where maybe parenting exercise,

1135
00:53:23,980 --> 00:53:26,260
less sugar in their diet is also going

1136
00:53:26,260 --> 00:53:28,100
to help on the behavior side on that side.

1137
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:29,820
Or I think behavior is the wrong word,

1138
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:33,020
but the interaction side on that side.

1139
00:53:33,020 --> 00:53:37,220
With ADHD specifically, what are good medications

1140
00:53:37,220 --> 00:53:39,580
if someone is looking for that and they absolutely

1141
00:53:39,580 --> 00:53:40,860
are going to need prescriptions?

1142
00:53:40,860 --> 00:53:43,140
And then what are the holistic approaches

1143
00:53:43,140 --> 00:53:47,060
that can temper the negative side of ADHD

1144
00:53:47,060 --> 00:53:51,900
and help them focus on, for example, the creative side?

1145
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:55,900
Well, the medication or the best medicines in general

1146
00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:58,260
are amphetamine based.

1147
00:53:58,260 --> 00:54:00,180
And they must be prescribed.

1148
00:54:00,180 --> 00:54:02,700
There are side effects to them.

1149
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:08,660
So everyone must be very cautious about them.

1150
00:54:08,660 --> 00:54:09,860
They have to be followed up.

1151
00:54:09,860 --> 00:54:11,260
You have to check blood pressure.

1152
00:54:11,260 --> 00:54:13,700
You have to see whether the patient becomes anxious

1153
00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:16,340
and things like that.

1154
00:54:16,340 --> 00:54:19,700
They can be good for the most severe cases,

1155
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:22,580
but I belong to the camp that doesn't

1156
00:54:22,580 --> 00:54:26,340
think that 10% or 20% of the population should have them.

1157
00:54:26,340 --> 00:54:29,300
I think that's too many.

1158
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:30,500
So what else can they do?

1159
00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:31,900
Well, one thing is exercise.

1160
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:35,220
Exercise improves our cognitive functions, as I said.

1161
00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:37,180
It makes us more focused.

1162
00:54:37,180 --> 00:54:42,340
And it particularly makes people with ADHD more focused.

1163
00:54:42,340 --> 00:54:46,500
They seem to benefit the most from exercise

1164
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:49,020
in terms of increased focus.

1165
00:54:49,020 --> 00:54:50,580
And there has been studies that show

1166
00:54:50,580 --> 00:54:52,940
that if you exercise in the morning before school,

1167
00:54:52,940 --> 00:54:55,780
you can reduce the dose of ADHD medication.

1168
00:54:55,780 --> 00:54:57,460
You cannot take away the medication,

1169
00:54:57,460 --> 00:54:59,340
but you can reduce the dose.

1170
00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:02,380
So exercise is, in fact, a form of medication

1171
00:55:02,380 --> 00:55:07,580
for children and adults with ADHD.

1172
00:55:07,580 --> 00:55:08,340
Beautiful.

1173
00:55:08,340 --> 00:55:10,900
Well, staying with school age, I want

1174
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:13,420
to progress onto this topic in the first responder professions

1175
00:55:13,420 --> 00:55:13,900
as well.

1176
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:16,140
But with our children, talk to me

1177
00:55:16,140 --> 00:55:18,980
about the importance of sleep and their mental health.

1178
00:55:21,620 --> 00:55:24,900
Yeah, but for both children and adults,

1179
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:28,180
sleep is, of course, incredibly important.

1180
00:55:28,180 --> 00:55:31,660
And the brain is not just resting when we are sleeping.

1181
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:35,380
It's doing things that it can't do during the daytime.

1182
00:55:35,380 --> 00:55:42,340
And one of those things is to collect all the things

1183
00:55:42,340 --> 00:55:43,940
that you have experienced during the day

1184
00:55:43,940 --> 00:55:47,860
and decide what of these things, these experiences,

1185
00:55:47,860 --> 00:55:49,180
should I keep?

1186
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:52,460
So it sorts through your short-term memories

1187
00:55:52,460 --> 00:55:54,980
from the day and decides which one should be long-term

1188
00:55:54,980 --> 00:55:55,580
memories.

1189
00:55:55,580 --> 00:55:59,420
And that is done primarily when we sleep.

1190
00:55:59,420 --> 00:56:02,860
And we also know that the brain is trying to understand,

1191
00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:06,020
what does the things that I experienced during the day

1192
00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:07,300
mean?

1193
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:11,660
And in a very random way, it takes experiences from the day

1194
00:56:11,660 --> 00:56:13,820
and tries to combine that with things you

1195
00:56:13,820 --> 00:56:15,860
have experienced previously.

1196
00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:20,100
And this is probably why we dream.

1197
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:23,780
And most of the dreams, we never dream exactly what

1198
00:56:23,780 --> 00:56:24,740
happened during the day.

1199
00:56:24,740 --> 00:56:26,700
It's sort of fragments from the day

1200
00:56:26,700 --> 00:56:29,020
that are put into previous experiences

1201
00:56:29,020 --> 00:56:33,460
in a very strange way that makes these lucid hallucinations

1202
00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:35,260
that we call dreams.

1203
00:56:35,260 --> 00:56:38,340
And they are important for creativity

1204
00:56:38,340 --> 00:56:42,380
because the brain is trying to make these weird connections.

1205
00:56:42,380 --> 00:56:44,140
And most of them are garbage.

1206
00:56:44,140 --> 00:56:47,780
But sometimes they are very important.

1207
00:56:47,780 --> 00:56:52,340
So sleeping is very important for creativity.

1208
00:56:52,340 --> 00:56:56,660
And it's also important for emotional stabilization.

1209
00:56:56,660 --> 00:56:58,780
And we know that because there's a part of the brain

1210
00:56:58,780 --> 00:56:59,820
called the amygdala.

1211
00:56:59,820 --> 00:57:03,580
And the amygdala is sort of the detector of threats.

1212
00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:08,580
And when we dream, the amygdala is active.

1213
00:57:08,580 --> 00:57:11,900
But at the same time, the level of substance

1214
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:15,660
in the brain called noradrenaline is very low.

1215
00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:19,580
And that means that the brain is processing difficult things.

1216
00:57:19,580 --> 00:57:23,620
The amygdala is active in a state where the brain is calm.

1217
00:57:23,620 --> 00:57:26,380
And that's exactly what you're doing in therapy.

1218
00:57:26,380 --> 00:57:30,380
So there's no coincidence that sleep

1219
00:57:30,380 --> 00:57:33,020
has been called nightly therapy.

1220
00:57:33,020 --> 00:57:36,580
Now, if you look at what's happening during a normal night,

1221
00:57:36,580 --> 00:57:42,580
you go through four or five sleep stages or sleep cycles.

1222
00:57:42,580 --> 00:57:47,020
And each sleep cycle is about 90 minutes.

1223
00:57:47,020 --> 00:57:49,180
In the beginning, early in the night,

1224
00:57:49,180 --> 00:57:53,220
it's mostly deep sleep in each sleep cycle

1225
00:57:53,220 --> 00:57:55,780
and just a little dream sleep.

1226
00:57:55,780 --> 00:58:01,060
But late in the night, it's less deep sleep and more dream

1227
00:58:01,060 --> 00:58:01,940
sleep.

1228
00:58:01,940 --> 00:58:06,420
And that means that if you only sleep for five or six hours,

1229
00:58:06,420 --> 00:58:09,740
what you lose is the dream sleep.

1230
00:58:09,740 --> 00:58:15,540
And then you lose the creativity and the emotional stabilization.

1231
00:58:15,540 --> 00:58:17,300
And that basically means that you

1232
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:22,300
could go on living with just four, five, or six hours

1233
00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:23,300
of sleep.

1234
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:24,020
That's fine.

1235
00:58:24,020 --> 00:58:25,340
You will not get sick from it.

1236
00:58:25,340 --> 00:58:28,220
But you will not be as creative as you would have been.

1237
00:58:28,220 --> 00:58:32,300
And you will not be as stable emotionally

1238
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,140
as you would have been.

1239
00:58:34,140 --> 00:58:38,020
And that is exactly why you should not jeopardize sleep.

1240
00:58:38,020 --> 00:58:43,060
When I studied economics, there was a sort of a cliche

1241
00:58:43,060 --> 00:58:44,940
that sleep is for wimps.

1242
00:58:44,940 --> 00:58:46,780
You could just sleep four or five hours.

1243
00:58:46,780 --> 00:58:50,740
And you could crank on your Excel spreadsheets.

1244
00:58:50,740 --> 00:58:54,220
And that might be fine if you're working in Excel spreadsheets.

1245
00:58:54,220 --> 00:58:56,420
And you don't need any creativity.

1246
00:58:56,420 --> 00:58:59,500
And you don't need this emotional stabilization.

1247
00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:01,020
But if you care about those things,

1248
00:59:01,020 --> 00:59:03,300
you should prioritize your sleep.

1249
00:59:03,300 --> 00:59:05,700
And of course, when we are in our teens,

1250
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:07,140
it's especially important.

1251
00:59:07,140 --> 00:59:11,780
And the internal clock is sort of shifting

1252
00:59:11,780 --> 00:59:13,140
when we are in our teens.

1253
00:59:13,140 --> 00:59:15,460
So we become more night persons.

1254
00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:16,580
That happens gradually.

1255
00:59:16,580 --> 00:59:18,180
And then it becomes very difficult

1256
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:19,780
to get up in the morning.

1257
00:59:19,780 --> 00:59:21,540
And there's actually a debate in Sweden

1258
00:59:21,540 --> 00:59:24,780
whether you should start school one hour later.

1259
00:59:24,780 --> 00:59:26,300
And instead of eight in the morning,

1260
00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:29,220
they are discussing whether they should start nine

1261
00:59:29,220 --> 00:59:36,820
because of this shift in teenage sleep-wake cycle.

1262
00:59:36,820 --> 00:59:39,020
My son's school has done exactly that.

1263
00:59:39,020 --> 00:59:40,900
I don't know if that was specifically

1264
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,540
for this conversation or if it was more

1265
00:59:42,540 --> 00:59:44,260
to fit the buses around.

1266
00:59:44,260 --> 00:59:46,700
But I've been very, very lucky.

1267
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:49,860
Since he was a baby, I put him in a bed at nine.

1268
00:59:49,860 --> 00:59:51,060
And it stayed all the way.

1269
00:59:51,060 --> 00:59:52,220
And he's 17 now.

1270
00:59:52,220 --> 00:59:53,300
And he still goes to bed.

1271
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:54,980
He might stay up a little bit later now.

1272
00:59:54,980 --> 00:59:57,820
But that 9 o'clock star allowed him to have,

1273
00:59:57,820 --> 01:00:00,460
let's say it takes another hour for him to drift away.

1274
01:00:00,460 --> 01:00:01,940
By the time he's waking up at eight,

1275
01:00:01,940 --> 01:00:04,220
that's a full 10-hour sleep as a teenager.

1276
01:00:04,220 --> 01:00:06,940
So he's actually done very well in the morning.

1277
01:00:06,940 --> 01:00:10,740
But what's sad is our elementary school, the youngest ones,

1278
01:00:10,740 --> 01:00:15,020
used to be that they had to start at 7.40, I think.

1279
01:00:15,020 --> 01:00:17,180
So you've got these young children that are really

1280
01:00:17,180 --> 01:00:19,140
needing the sleep, really still growing.

1281
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:21,660
And they're having to get up at 6.30 in the morning

1282
01:00:21,660 --> 01:00:24,500
to go to school, which is lunacy.

1283
01:00:24,500 --> 01:00:25,580
Yeah, it is.

1284
01:00:25,580 --> 01:00:28,100
And in Sweden, the number of teenagers

1285
01:00:28,100 --> 01:00:30,060
seeking help for sleeping problems

1286
01:00:30,060 --> 01:00:33,140
has increased by more than 1,000%

1287
01:00:33,140 --> 01:00:35,900
during the last two decades.

1288
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:39,380
And that's just staggering.

1289
01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:43,180
And I think that screen time is at least partly

1290
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:45,380
to blame for that.

1291
01:00:45,380 --> 01:00:47,820
Because so many people spend time

1292
01:00:47,820 --> 01:00:50,020
with their young people, and also adults,

1293
01:00:50,020 --> 01:00:55,340
spend time on their screens the hour before they go to sleep.

1294
01:00:55,340 --> 01:00:59,860
And some even bring the phone into the bed.

1295
01:00:59,860 --> 01:01:02,980
And to have all your friends, to have a casino,

1296
01:01:02,980 --> 01:01:05,700
to have all the world's entertainment in your bed,

1297
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:07,780
you're not going to sleep if you have that.

1298
01:01:07,780 --> 01:01:09,140
And there was a study that showed

1299
01:01:09,140 --> 01:01:12,380
that teenagers who have the phone outside the bedroom

1300
01:01:12,380 --> 01:01:15,180
slept 22 minutes longer on average.

1301
01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:15,940
That was the average.

1302
01:01:15,940 --> 01:01:18,380
And that meant that some teenagers, for them,

1303
01:01:18,380 --> 01:01:22,700
it doesn't matter whether they had the phone beside the bed.

1304
01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:27,580
But for others, it made them sleep one hour less.

1305
01:01:27,580 --> 01:01:30,660
So my main advice to especially young people

1306
01:01:30,660 --> 01:01:32,180
who seek help for sleeping problems

1307
01:01:32,180 --> 01:01:35,620
is that get an old school alarm clock.

1308
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:38,300
Get the phone out of the bedroom.

1309
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:44,580
Try that first before even you think about any sleeping pills.

1310
01:01:44,580 --> 01:01:46,660
And learn more about sleep.

1311
01:01:46,660 --> 01:01:48,180
Because when you learn about that,

1312
01:01:48,180 --> 01:01:50,300
you understand that you're not going

1313
01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:52,940
to let some tech company jeopardize

1314
01:01:52,940 --> 01:01:57,580
this incredibly important process in your brain.

1315
01:01:57,580 --> 01:01:59,420
You would protect your sleep better

1316
01:01:59,420 --> 01:02:02,300
if you learn more about how important it is, I think.

1317
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:03,100
Absolutely.

1318
01:02:03,100 --> 01:02:05,020
Well, speaking of that, that's a beautiful segue

1319
01:02:05,020 --> 01:02:06,980
into the first responder profession.

1320
01:02:06,980 --> 01:02:11,500
So in America, we work 24-hour shifts.

1321
01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:16,100
And most of the country works a 24-hour shift.

1322
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:17,460
They have 48 hours.

1323
01:02:17,460 --> 01:02:21,700
And then they're back on the 24-hour shift for 20, 30 years.

1324
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:27,220
So what is interesting when you talked about these memories

1325
01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:30,900
and you can down-regulate the response if you're

1326
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:35,060
in a calm environment is a lot of us in very busy cities

1327
01:02:35,060 --> 01:02:39,380
and suburban areas, we will run through most of the night

1328
01:02:39,380 --> 01:02:40,460
as well.

1329
01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:43,780
But the pushback on giving firefighters more rest

1330
01:02:43,780 --> 01:02:46,660
and recovery is, oh, well, you sleep at the station.

1331
01:02:46,660 --> 01:02:50,500
But the irony is, when you are asleep in a fire station just

1332
01:02:50,500 --> 01:02:53,180
waiting for those alarms to scare the hell out of you

1333
01:02:53,180 --> 01:02:55,380
and you have to jump up and go, you're

1334
01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:57,820
never getting into that restorative sleep.

1335
01:02:57,820 --> 01:03:00,060
And you're actually, as you said,

1336
01:03:00,060 --> 01:03:01,940
you're reliving those memories.

1337
01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:05,620
But you're in a heightened state even when you're asleep.

1338
01:03:05,620 --> 01:03:07,300
So you add that three.

1339
01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:10,100
And then we have a recruitment crisis at the moment.

1340
01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:12,780
A lot of firefighters are being told, no, you can't go home.

1341
01:03:12,780 --> 01:03:14,700
You've got to work yet another day.

1342
01:03:14,700 --> 01:03:18,180
We're talking four days, four nights of the week

1343
01:03:18,180 --> 01:03:19,060
they're not sleeping.

1344
01:03:19,060 --> 01:03:20,700
And then the night before their shift,

1345
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:22,740
a lot of us live a long way from the station

1346
01:03:22,740 --> 01:03:24,860
because we can't afford to live in the city.

1347
01:03:24,860 --> 01:03:26,980
And so you're getting up at 5 that morning

1348
01:03:26,980 --> 01:03:28,340
to go to the fire station.

1349
01:03:28,340 --> 01:03:33,580
So you've got so much disrupted sleep or sleep lost completely.

1350
01:03:33,580 --> 01:03:35,980
And that absolutely parallels or is

1351
01:03:35,980 --> 01:03:41,860
linear to the immense mental health crisis that we have.

1352
01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:47,180
Yes, and I remember while working in a hospital,

1353
01:03:47,180 --> 01:03:49,180
you don't sleep well there.

1354
01:03:49,180 --> 01:03:50,740
You sleep with one eye open, basically.

1355
01:03:50,740 --> 01:03:52,660
You don't get the deep sleep because you know

1356
01:03:52,660 --> 01:03:55,420
that the phone might ring any seconds.

1357
01:03:55,420 --> 01:03:59,420
And then so you will not get that much rest.

1358
01:03:59,420 --> 01:04:03,580
And I think if you take a step back,

1359
01:04:03,580 --> 01:04:07,020
and the stress system that we have in our body, which

1360
01:04:07,020 --> 01:04:11,900
is called the HPA axis, which means that when we get stressed,

1361
01:04:11,900 --> 01:04:15,620
the body mobilizes energy for fight and flight.

1362
01:04:15,620 --> 01:04:18,660
That's why your heart is beating stronger when you get stressed.

1363
01:04:18,660 --> 01:04:22,260
That's when your blood pressure rises because your muscles

1364
01:04:22,260 --> 01:04:24,500
need more blood.

1365
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:29,620
To have that system on 24-7, it never evolved for that.

1366
01:04:29,620 --> 01:04:32,660
As a professor at Stanford said, you know,

1367
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:35,540
stress during our evolutionary history,

1368
01:04:35,540 --> 01:04:38,460
that was four minutes of terror.

1369
01:04:38,460 --> 01:04:41,460
And then it's over, either for you or for your opponent.

1370
01:04:41,460 --> 01:04:45,940
And now we turn the same system on for 30-year-old mortgages.

1371
01:04:45,940 --> 01:04:50,140
So the way we experience stress in modern society

1372
01:04:50,140 --> 01:04:52,100
is absurd, I think.

1373
01:04:52,100 --> 01:04:54,380
It's not as intense for most people,

1374
01:04:54,380 --> 01:04:58,020
but it is for firefighters, of course.

1375
01:04:58,020 --> 01:05:00,140
But for the rest of us, it's not as intense

1376
01:05:00,140 --> 01:05:01,500
as it was for our ancestors.

1377
01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:04,460
But it just goes on and on and on and on.

1378
01:05:04,460 --> 01:05:08,420
And as a psychiatrist, I've realized that we can handle

1379
01:05:08,420 --> 01:05:11,380
a lot of stress, but we need recovery.

1380
01:05:11,380 --> 01:05:15,660
And especially if you experience such intense stress

1381
01:05:15,660 --> 01:05:18,460
as a firefighter or policeman, then you really

1382
01:05:18,460 --> 01:05:19,620
need that recovery.

1383
01:05:19,620 --> 01:05:21,980
And that recovery is not at the station

1384
01:05:21,980 --> 01:05:24,940
where you might be woken up any time.

1385
01:05:24,940 --> 01:05:25,660
Absolutely.

1386
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:28,740
Yeah, there's, like I said, 24-48.

1387
01:05:28,740 --> 01:05:32,540
I'm trying to push the 24-72 to give them another 24-hour

1388
01:05:32,540 --> 01:05:34,140
period between each of the shifts.

1389
01:05:34,140 --> 01:05:37,300
Because now you would actually have one of those days,

1390
01:05:37,300 --> 01:05:40,340
you would go to sleep next to your wife or your husband

1391
01:05:40,340 --> 01:05:41,220
or whoever it is.

1392
01:05:41,220 --> 01:05:42,420
You'd wake up next to them.

1393
01:05:42,420 --> 01:05:44,020
You'd have a lazy morning with them.

1394
01:05:44,020 --> 01:05:46,500
And so you really have that recovery day.

1395
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:48,820
The way we do it now, the first day off

1396
01:05:48,820 --> 01:05:51,220
isn't because you didn't leave till 8 in the morning.

1397
01:05:51,220 --> 01:05:52,980
So you work from midnight to 8.

1398
01:05:52,980 --> 01:05:54,460
So that's a full day there.

1399
01:05:54,460 --> 01:05:55,900
And you probably didn't sleep.

1400
01:05:55,900 --> 01:05:57,980
The second day is when you're ramping up

1401
01:05:57,980 --> 01:06:00,540
to get up at 5 o'clock the next morning to go back to work.

1402
01:06:00,540 --> 01:06:03,740
So getting my profession to understand

1403
01:06:03,740 --> 01:06:06,540
the ill effects of sleep deprivation

1404
01:06:06,540 --> 01:06:10,020
and how even economically they would save money giving them

1405
01:06:10,020 --> 01:06:11,780
more rest and recovery.

1406
01:06:11,780 --> 01:06:13,300
Because now you'd see a reduction

1407
01:06:13,300 --> 01:06:15,620
on injuries and heart disease and some

1408
01:06:15,620 --> 01:06:17,940
of the mental health issues.

1409
01:06:17,940 --> 01:06:19,340
Yeah, absolutely.

1410
01:06:19,340 --> 01:06:20,820
Absolutely.

1411
01:06:20,820 --> 01:06:23,780
The recovery is so incredibly important.

1412
01:06:23,780 --> 01:06:28,300
As a psychiatrist, I take that very seriously.

1413
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:29,540
I used to work very hard.

1414
01:06:29,540 --> 01:06:33,900
But I have just made, I mean, I protect my recovery

1415
01:06:33,900 --> 01:06:37,180
as a hawk these days because I see the consequences of not

1416
01:06:37,180 --> 01:06:38,460
getting it.

1417
01:06:38,460 --> 01:06:48,420
And burnouts are much easier to prevent than to treat.

1418
01:06:48,420 --> 01:06:51,260
And you get lots of warning signals on the way.

1419
01:06:51,260 --> 01:06:52,700
And what are those warning signals?

1420
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:55,500
Well, that's irritability.

1421
01:06:55,500 --> 01:06:59,740
It could be anxiety, of course, sleeping problems, dizziness,

1422
01:06:59,740 --> 01:07:00,420
things like that.

1423
01:07:00,420 --> 01:07:01,580
Those are warning signals.

1424
01:07:01,580 --> 01:07:04,540
And that means that you have to unwind.

1425
01:07:04,540 --> 01:07:06,740
You have to protect your recovery.

1426
01:07:06,740 --> 01:07:08,620
And of course, that's easier said than done.

1427
01:07:08,620 --> 01:07:12,740
But you have to try to do that because it's easier

1428
01:07:12,740 --> 01:07:15,100
to prevent it than to treat it.

1429
01:07:15,100 --> 01:07:18,380
What are you seeing as far as chronic sleep deprivation

1430
01:07:18,380 --> 01:07:23,100
and the relationship to anxiety, depression, addiction,

1431
01:07:23,100 --> 01:07:25,980
those kind of things?

1432
01:07:25,980 --> 01:07:30,260
Well, when you work in an emergency ward

1433
01:07:30,260 --> 01:07:36,700
at the psychiatric emergency ward,

1434
01:07:36,700 --> 01:07:38,580
you realize that sleep is the first thing

1435
01:07:38,580 --> 01:07:42,060
that you have to stabilize if someone is really, really

1436
01:07:42,060 --> 01:07:44,300
bad in bad shape or anxious or depressed.

1437
01:07:44,300 --> 01:07:46,460
If that doesn't work, nothing works.

1438
01:07:46,460 --> 01:07:48,100
That's the first thing.

1439
01:07:48,100 --> 01:07:51,780
So of course, sleeping problems is contributing

1440
01:07:51,780 --> 01:07:55,580
to what we see today in terms of depressions and anxiety.

1441
01:07:55,580 --> 01:07:57,700
I can't give you a percentage number,

1442
01:07:57,700 --> 01:08:02,060
but it's always the first things that you need to stabilize.

1443
01:08:02,060 --> 01:08:05,420
Well, let's go to the therapeutic side then.

1444
01:08:05,420 --> 01:08:08,500
In the States, certainly, for example, in the VA,

1445
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:12,300
our veterans here, I've heard over and over again

1446
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:13,140
that they've gone in.

1447
01:08:13,140 --> 01:08:14,460
And again, I think this is really

1448
01:08:14,460 --> 01:08:17,100
indicative of a broken system, not so much a practitioner.

1449
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:21,580
But prescriptions are given, and then they leave.

1450
01:08:21,580 --> 01:08:25,620
Of course, there is absolutely a place

1451
01:08:25,620 --> 01:08:27,660
where medicine should be prescribed.

1452
01:08:27,660 --> 01:08:29,660
And it might be long term.

1453
01:08:29,660 --> 01:08:32,140
But where I feel that there's a disconnect with medicine

1454
01:08:32,140 --> 01:08:34,420
as far as the psychiatric side here

1455
01:08:34,420 --> 01:08:36,220
is there's not an exit strategy.

1456
01:08:36,220 --> 01:08:38,060
There's not, let's use this medication

1457
01:08:38,060 --> 01:08:40,420
to get you stabilized, and then, as you said, therapies

1458
01:08:40,420 --> 01:08:43,580
and whatever the other parts of the toolbox would look like.

1459
01:08:43,580 --> 01:08:46,420
So ultimately, we can get you off antidepressants

1460
01:08:46,420 --> 01:08:47,860
or whatever it is.

1461
01:08:47,860 --> 01:08:51,540
So talk to me about your personal philosophy

1462
01:08:51,540 --> 01:08:55,380
or the Swedish model as far as the use of medication

1463
01:08:55,380 --> 01:08:58,020
in the mental health issues.

1464
01:08:58,020 --> 01:09:00,580
Yeah, so if you by medication mean

1465
01:09:00,580 --> 01:09:04,460
antidepressant medication, those are used for depressions.

1466
01:09:04,460 --> 01:09:07,020
And they're used for anxiety disorders,

1467
01:09:07,020 --> 01:09:14,700
such as PTSD or social phobia or a panic disorder.

1468
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:18,220
They work well for a third of all patients.

1469
01:09:18,220 --> 01:09:20,660
They work OK for a third of all patients.

1470
01:09:20,660 --> 01:09:22,460
And they don't work for a third.

1471
01:09:22,460 --> 01:09:24,860
And which group does someone belong to?

1472
01:09:24,860 --> 01:09:26,940
You can't know that before.

1473
01:09:26,940 --> 01:09:28,020
There's no blood tests.

1474
01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:31,500
So you will have to test the medication.

1475
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:34,540
If they work, you should continue

1476
01:09:34,540 --> 01:09:39,060
until you feel well and for another six months.

1477
01:09:39,060 --> 01:09:42,540
So you should not stop immediately when you feel well.

1478
01:09:42,540 --> 01:09:44,940
And that's because the ice that you are walking on

1479
01:09:44,940 --> 01:09:48,620
is thinner than it feels like.

1480
01:09:48,620 --> 01:09:53,660
But after being well for six months, then you should normally,

1481
01:09:53,660 --> 01:09:56,660
there might be exceptions, but normally you

1482
01:09:56,660 --> 01:09:59,820
should stop taking the medication.

1483
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:05,420
Not immediately stop, but to lower the dose gradually.

1484
01:10:05,420 --> 01:10:09,380
And sometimes you have to do this gradual lowering

1485
01:10:09,380 --> 01:10:13,340
of the dose for three or four months.

1486
01:10:13,340 --> 01:10:16,580
It could be very, very, very slowly sometimes.

1487
01:10:16,580 --> 01:10:20,100
But it works most of the time.

1488
01:10:20,100 --> 01:10:20,940
It's fine.

1489
01:10:20,940 --> 01:10:25,140
But I don't think there's too many

1490
01:10:25,140 --> 01:10:27,980
who continues to be on antidepressant medication

1491
01:10:27,980 --> 01:10:31,180
just because they don't dare to remove it.

1492
01:10:31,180 --> 01:10:35,620
And that's probably not so good.

1493
01:10:35,620 --> 01:10:38,580
What we know is that exercise also

1494
01:10:38,580 --> 01:10:40,100
protects against depressions.

1495
01:10:40,100 --> 01:10:43,700
And exercise actually seems to give a better protection

1496
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:46,540
against future depressions than continuing

1497
01:10:46,540 --> 01:10:48,580
with antidepressant medication.

1498
01:10:48,580 --> 01:10:53,020
So to my patients who have had severe depressions

1499
01:10:53,020 --> 01:10:56,740
and who don't want to discontinue antidepressant

1500
01:10:56,740 --> 01:10:59,620
medication, I always tell them that you should definitely

1501
01:10:59,620 --> 01:11:00,180
exercise.

1502
01:11:00,180 --> 01:11:03,100
That would give you more protection.

1503
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:07,060
Well, we talked about the body's hundreds of thousands

1504
01:11:07,060 --> 01:11:09,860
of years of evolution, and then our diet has changed.

1505
01:11:09,860 --> 01:11:11,500
And now, for example, in America,

1506
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:14,820
70% of our population is overweight,

1507
01:11:14,820 --> 01:11:18,220
of which about 40% is obese.

1508
01:11:18,220 --> 01:11:20,340
And a lot of them, and I know this

1509
01:11:20,340 --> 01:11:22,980
because I was a paramedic for a long time,

1510
01:11:22,980 --> 01:11:24,540
they are on these pills.

1511
01:11:24,540 --> 01:11:27,060
But what I see again is there isn't

1512
01:11:27,060 --> 01:11:29,820
here's a pill for your blood pressure or cholesterol.

1513
01:11:29,820 --> 01:11:32,740
But at the same time, we're going

1514
01:11:32,740 --> 01:11:35,180
to send you to a nutritionist or we're

1515
01:11:35,180 --> 01:11:37,300
going to get you a membership to a gym.

1516
01:11:37,300 --> 01:11:38,940
They don't have to pay for it, but that's

1517
01:11:38,940 --> 01:11:40,220
part of the treatment modality.

1518
01:11:40,220 --> 01:11:42,420
So like you said, you've got exercise, you've got sleep,

1519
01:11:42,420 --> 01:11:45,620
you've got hydration, you've got time outside.

1520
01:11:45,620 --> 01:11:47,860
And so the goal being, let's get your weight down,

1521
01:11:47,860 --> 01:11:49,860
let's get you off these blood pressure pills,

1522
01:11:49,860 --> 01:11:51,860
let's get you off these cholesterol pills,

1523
01:11:51,860 --> 01:11:54,300
we'll get your diabetes back because it is reversible

1524
01:11:54,300 --> 01:11:55,660
with a lot of people.

1525
01:11:55,660 --> 01:11:57,820
I see the same kind of philosophy

1526
01:11:57,820 --> 01:11:59,020
in the mental health space.

1527
01:11:59,020 --> 01:12:01,460
And again, I also understand in the American system

1528
01:12:01,460 --> 01:12:03,980
that a lot of these physicians only get about eight minutes

1529
01:12:03,980 --> 01:12:05,180
with every patient.

1530
01:12:05,180 --> 01:12:08,740
So again, the system is they're working in a broken system.

1531
01:12:08,740 --> 01:12:12,260
But when you are just giving an antidepressant

1532
01:12:12,260 --> 01:12:16,820
and they're not being told to find the other therapeutics,

1533
01:12:16,820 --> 01:12:18,740
including, as you said, exercise and some

1534
01:12:18,740 --> 01:12:20,820
of these other holistic elements,

1535
01:12:20,820 --> 01:12:23,260
to then address the underlying issue,

1536
01:12:23,260 --> 01:12:26,860
the pee beneath the mattress, and you're not

1537
01:12:26,860 --> 01:12:29,900
giving them a plan where they should ultimately

1538
01:12:29,900 --> 01:12:32,420
come off the antidepressants, just like you said,

1539
01:12:32,420 --> 01:12:34,220
I think that's where we're really dropping

1540
01:12:34,220 --> 01:12:37,660
the ball in America.

1541
01:12:37,660 --> 01:12:41,740
Yeah, we are dropping the ball in Sweden as well.

1542
01:12:41,740 --> 01:12:47,900
But I think we are so in Sweden, more than one in eight adults

1543
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:49,820
are on antidepressant medication.

1544
01:12:49,820 --> 01:12:55,820
And it's probably a large group that

1545
01:12:55,820 --> 01:13:00,380
doesn't stop taking medication just because they're

1546
01:13:00,380 --> 01:13:01,340
afraid to do so.

1547
01:13:01,340 --> 01:13:04,420
And of course, in some cases, it might be good to continue.

1548
01:13:04,420 --> 01:13:08,460
So don't and your listeners cannot

1549
01:13:08,460 --> 01:13:10,700
have any advice on medication.

1550
01:13:10,700 --> 01:13:13,460
You must check it with your doctor.

1551
01:13:13,460 --> 01:13:16,740
But I think in general, one should

1552
01:13:16,740 --> 01:13:21,180
try to stop taking these medications after feeling well

1553
01:13:21,180 --> 01:13:22,700
for at least six months.

1554
01:13:22,700 --> 01:13:24,260
That's the general rule.

1555
01:13:24,260 --> 01:13:27,740
Then there are, of course, exceptions sometimes.

1556
01:13:27,740 --> 01:13:29,460
But too many people stay on them.

1557
01:13:29,460 --> 01:13:32,540
And of course, as you say, therapy

1558
01:13:32,540 --> 01:13:35,020
is incredibly important as well.

1559
01:13:35,020 --> 01:13:41,660
And exercise is incredibly important for both treating

1560
01:13:41,660 --> 01:13:44,220
and preventing anxiety and depressions.

1561
01:13:44,220 --> 01:13:46,700
And don't mix exercise with sports.

1562
01:13:46,700 --> 01:13:51,340
Exercise might be walking to work or riding your bike

1563
01:13:51,340 --> 01:13:55,380
to work or gardening or playing something like that

1564
01:13:55,380 --> 01:13:57,260
is also exercise.

1565
01:13:57,260 --> 01:14:00,380
But to get the best benefits in terms of prevention

1566
01:14:00,380 --> 01:14:03,700
of anxiety and depression, you should try to raise your pulse.

1567
01:14:03,700 --> 01:14:06,620
And in an ideal setting, you should try

1568
01:14:06,620 --> 01:14:08,740
to do that three times a week.

1569
01:14:08,740 --> 01:14:12,180
But if you can't do that or don't want to do that,

1570
01:14:12,180 --> 01:14:14,740
just fast walks are also important

1571
01:14:14,740 --> 01:14:17,300
and will give you some protections.

1572
01:14:17,300 --> 01:14:20,620
I've heard a lot of good things about EMDR, especially

1573
01:14:20,620 --> 01:14:22,980
when it's addressing an acute trauma, one

1574
01:14:22,980 --> 01:14:26,460
of those flashback nightmare type experiences.

1575
01:14:26,460 --> 01:14:31,900
What are the holistic, the non-medication therapies

1576
01:14:31,900 --> 01:14:33,820
that you're excited about today?

1577
01:14:33,820 --> 01:14:35,620
Are there any new innovations that you're

1578
01:14:35,620 --> 01:14:39,220
seeing in Sweden that seem to be working really well for people?

1579
01:14:39,220 --> 01:14:42,380
I don't know the science behind it, so I can't comment on it.

1580
01:14:42,380 --> 01:14:46,900
But cognitive behavioral therapy is what

1581
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:48,660
I would recommend in general.

1582
01:14:48,660 --> 01:14:51,900
And I think when it comes to therapy,

1583
01:14:51,900 --> 01:14:57,780
that it boils down to personal chemistry.

1584
01:14:57,780 --> 01:15:00,380
So a good therapist for you might not

1585
01:15:00,380 --> 01:15:03,860
be a good therapist for me or vice versa.

1586
01:15:03,860 --> 01:15:07,340
So if you go to therapists, you feel that this doesn't work,

1587
01:15:07,340 --> 01:15:09,980
then it might be a good idea to try a new therapist

1588
01:15:09,980 --> 01:15:12,260
or another one or even another one.

1589
01:15:12,260 --> 01:15:13,460
Try three or four of them.

1590
01:15:13,460 --> 01:15:15,660
Because if you find the right one,

1591
01:15:15,660 --> 01:15:19,300
it can be life changing in a way that, according

1592
01:15:19,300 --> 01:15:27,660
to my experience, the effects are even bigger than medication

1593
01:15:27,660 --> 01:15:29,820
if you find the right therapist.

1594
01:15:29,820 --> 01:15:33,540
What about the conversation with psychedelics?

1595
01:15:33,540 --> 01:15:35,820
There's a movement, there's a groundswell here.

1596
01:15:35,820 --> 01:15:38,500
And I personally know a lot of first responders

1597
01:15:38,500 --> 01:15:41,140
and military members that tried other modalities.

1598
01:15:41,140 --> 01:15:43,300
And it was psychedelics that really opened the door.

1599
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:44,860
It's not a magic pill by any means,

1600
01:15:44,860 --> 01:15:47,740
but it allowed them to access things that were buried

1601
01:15:47,740 --> 01:15:52,300
that then they would go into treatment or counseling with

1602
01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:54,180
and then discuss with their therapist.

1603
01:15:54,180 --> 01:15:56,740
So what's the conversation, if any, in Sweden?

1604
01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:04,420
The effects of psychedelics is definitely interesting.

1605
01:16:04,420 --> 01:16:11,100
But I want to see more large studies before I'm convinced.

1606
01:16:11,100 --> 01:16:16,540
And definitely before we'll enter the clinic.

1607
01:16:16,540 --> 01:16:18,860
There are studies conducted at the Karolinska

1608
01:16:18,860 --> 01:16:21,340
Institute in Stockholm on it.

1609
01:16:21,340 --> 01:16:23,420
They have not been published yet.

1610
01:16:23,420 --> 01:16:28,580
But in those studies, one is testing, I think,

1611
01:16:28,580 --> 01:16:32,100
LSD for treatment for depressions

1612
01:16:32,100 --> 01:16:35,620
that have been very difficult to treat.

1613
01:16:35,620 --> 01:16:38,740
So it's going to be interesting to see what those studies show.

1614
01:16:38,740 --> 01:16:43,940
But apart from that, I can't comment on this

1615
01:16:43,940 --> 01:16:45,420
because I don't know it well enough.

1616
01:16:45,420 --> 01:16:46,460
Beautiful.

1617
01:16:46,460 --> 01:16:47,980
Well, I want to circle around to something

1618
01:16:47,980 --> 01:16:49,620
that you said with children while we're

1619
01:16:49,620 --> 01:16:51,660
talking about the adults now in the first responder

1620
01:16:51,660 --> 01:16:52,620
professions.

1621
01:16:52,620 --> 01:16:55,420
You mentioned about social media.

1622
01:16:55,420 --> 01:16:58,820
Back in 100 years ago, our circle

1623
01:16:58,820 --> 01:17:00,860
would be our circle, our village, or as you said,

1624
01:17:00,860 --> 01:17:02,300
in the classroom, your classmates.

1625
01:17:02,300 --> 01:17:04,740
And then now we have this kind of window,

1626
01:17:04,740 --> 01:17:06,060
this portal to the world.

1627
01:17:06,060 --> 01:17:09,420
And I agree with you completely as far as that comparison side.

1628
01:17:09,420 --> 01:17:12,540
I think it can be very discouraging to a young child

1629
01:17:12,540 --> 01:17:16,500
to start painting or start playing football because they

1630
01:17:16,500 --> 01:17:17,660
see the world's best.

1631
01:17:17,660 --> 01:17:18,420
And they're like, well, I'm never

1632
01:17:18,420 --> 01:17:19,500
going to be able to do that.

1633
01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:21,380
And I think it can be inspiring.

1634
01:17:21,380 --> 01:17:23,860
And there's people that will teach you how to get there.

1635
01:17:23,860 --> 01:17:26,180
They have very positive use of social media.

1636
01:17:26,180 --> 01:17:29,460
But it can also be very discouraging too.

1637
01:17:29,460 --> 01:17:33,180
The tribal element, though, that I'm not good enough,

1638
01:17:33,180 --> 01:17:34,740
one of the things that, again, I think

1639
01:17:34,740 --> 01:17:36,980
is an elephant in the room in the first responder

1640
01:17:36,980 --> 01:17:39,860
and military mental health conversation,

1641
01:17:39,860 --> 01:17:44,820
aside from the sleep deprivation, is the organizational

1642
01:17:44,820 --> 01:17:45,620
betrayal.

1643
01:17:45,620 --> 01:17:48,140
So for example, you're a police officer.

1644
01:17:48,140 --> 01:17:51,060
You do everything that you are supposed to do.

1645
01:17:51,060 --> 01:17:52,380
It gets politicized.

1646
01:17:52,380 --> 01:17:53,580
It gets put in the news.

1647
01:17:53,580 --> 01:17:57,020
And then your agency fires you for doing the very things

1648
01:17:57,020 --> 01:17:59,100
that you were told to do.

1649
01:17:59,100 --> 01:18:01,900
For me, it's not the trauma that that police officer saw.

1650
01:18:01,900 --> 01:18:05,300
It's the actual tribe turning their back on them,

1651
01:18:05,300 --> 01:18:07,660
the very people that they swore to be a part of,

1652
01:18:07,660 --> 01:18:10,300
that they would risk their lives to protect their community,

1653
01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:12,300
has now turned their back.

1654
01:18:12,300 --> 01:18:15,060
So talk to me again, the evolutionary brain,

1655
01:18:15,060 --> 01:18:18,580
as far as that kind of tribal or organizational betrayal

1656
01:18:18,580 --> 01:18:22,860
effect on the mental health of an individual.

1657
01:18:22,860 --> 01:18:28,380
Yes, and I mean, humans did not survive by themselves.

1658
01:18:28,380 --> 01:18:32,380
To be excluded was as dangerous as not having food.

1659
01:18:32,380 --> 01:18:36,820
And to belong to a group was as important as having food.

1660
01:18:36,820 --> 01:18:39,500
And therefore, our brains want to belong

1661
01:18:39,500 --> 01:18:43,100
to a group at all costs.

1662
01:18:43,100 --> 01:18:46,220
And we are constantly monitoring each other.

1663
01:18:46,220 --> 01:18:49,180
We are checking each other's body postures,

1664
01:18:49,180 --> 01:18:54,060
and of course, what we say, and how we look at one another,

1665
01:18:54,060 --> 01:18:54,540
and so on.

1666
01:18:54,540 --> 01:18:58,540
And we constantly ask ourselves, am I part of the group?

1667
01:18:58,540 --> 01:18:59,580
Do I belong in a group?

1668
01:18:59,580 --> 01:19:05,780
And any signals that shows that we might be excluded

1669
01:19:05,780 --> 01:19:08,660
is something that is a severe warning signal to the brain,

1670
01:19:08,660 --> 01:19:10,260
that feels very painful.

1671
01:19:10,260 --> 01:19:12,060
And of course, we have all experienced that

1672
01:19:12,060 --> 01:19:14,260
when we ask ourselves, why haven't I

1673
01:19:14,260 --> 01:19:16,300
gotten this invitation to the wedding,

1674
01:19:16,300 --> 01:19:20,140
or this SMS about the party this weekend?

1675
01:19:20,140 --> 01:19:23,660
And this is actually not a big deal if you miss a wedding,

1676
01:19:23,660 --> 01:19:25,740
but it doesn't feel like it.

1677
01:19:25,740 --> 01:19:28,780
You feel like I'm excluded, and this is something

1678
01:19:28,780 --> 01:19:32,340
that we are so sensitive to because we needed

1679
01:19:32,340 --> 01:19:35,460
to belong to a group to survive.

1680
01:19:35,460 --> 01:19:38,060
And of course, if your group turns your back on you,

1681
01:19:38,060 --> 01:19:41,500
that's very painful, not because you're broken,

1682
01:19:41,500 --> 01:19:44,260
because that meant almost certain death

1683
01:19:44,260 --> 01:19:46,900
for our ancestors.

1684
01:19:46,900 --> 01:19:51,820
And this is the way we should see the comparison

1685
01:19:51,820 --> 01:19:53,460
on social media, I think.

1686
01:19:53,460 --> 01:19:58,300
When we get this signal, six, seven hours a day,

1687
01:19:58,300 --> 01:20:01,260
where people who are richer, smarter, more successful,

1688
01:20:01,260 --> 01:20:04,540
et cetera, than you are, that signals

1689
01:20:04,540 --> 01:20:07,420
that you are not part of the group.

1690
01:20:07,420 --> 01:20:09,660
You're not good enough for the group.

1691
01:20:09,660 --> 01:20:11,820
And deep down, that is calculated as something

1692
01:20:11,820 --> 01:20:13,460
that is extremely dangerous.

1693
01:20:13,460 --> 01:20:16,900
And that is why it's so painful for us.

1694
01:20:16,900 --> 01:20:19,380
And of course, we have always compared ourselves

1695
01:20:19,380 --> 01:20:21,100
during the last generations, at least.

1696
01:20:21,100 --> 01:20:23,500
We have had models and movie stars and people

1697
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:27,620
who put an unobtainable level.

1698
01:20:27,620 --> 01:20:32,020
But we did not get that signal five, six, seven hours

1699
01:20:32,020 --> 01:20:33,180
every day.

1700
01:20:33,180 --> 01:20:36,620
And social media is becoming less social.

1701
01:20:36,620 --> 01:20:39,420
As you might know, people are using it less

1702
01:20:39,420 --> 01:20:42,500
to communicate with their friends and posting pictures,

1703
01:20:42,500 --> 01:20:45,980
and more just passively consuming content

1704
01:20:45,980 --> 01:20:50,260
that has been created and distributed by an AI.

1705
01:20:50,260 --> 01:20:53,380
So social media these days are more AI TV,

1706
01:20:53,380 --> 01:20:58,100
where we feel jealous because we're not good enough.

1707
01:20:58,100 --> 01:21:03,540
That's how I see the effect on loneliness

1708
01:21:03,540 --> 01:21:05,220
and mental comparison.

1709
01:21:05,220 --> 01:21:08,340
I see this through the lens of evolution.

1710
01:21:08,340 --> 01:21:10,700
Well, another area where this applies as well

1711
01:21:10,700 --> 01:21:14,500
is when a first responder retires, or they get hurt

1712
01:21:14,500 --> 01:21:15,900
and they can't do the job anymore,

1713
01:21:15,900 --> 01:21:18,860
or even ironically, when they promote an out of a fire

1714
01:21:18,860 --> 01:21:22,140
station into an office, an HQ.

1715
01:21:22,140 --> 01:21:25,260
And what's seemingly happening, and this

1716
01:21:25,260 --> 01:21:29,060
is kind of dovetailing off Sebastian Junger's book, Tribe,

1717
01:21:29,060 --> 01:21:33,540
is we were a part of that cohesive group for 10, 15, 20,

1718
01:21:33,540 --> 01:21:35,220
25 years of our life.

1719
01:21:35,220 --> 01:21:38,260
And then one day, that door closes behind us

1720
01:21:38,260 --> 01:21:39,540
on the fire station.

1721
01:21:39,540 --> 01:21:41,580
A new person is going to be sitting in the seat

1722
01:21:41,580 --> 01:21:42,900
that you sat.

1723
01:21:42,900 --> 01:21:45,260
And now you've lost that purpose.

1724
01:21:45,260 --> 01:21:46,340
You've lost that tribe.

1725
01:21:46,340 --> 01:21:49,220
And then a lot of us, if we're not careful,

1726
01:21:49,220 --> 01:21:50,500
that becomes our identity.

1727
01:21:50,500 --> 01:21:51,860
I am a firefighter.

1728
01:21:51,860 --> 01:21:53,340
That's all I was.

1729
01:21:53,340 --> 01:21:55,540
And so it's very, very jarring for our people

1730
01:21:55,540 --> 01:22:00,020
if they, like I said, get hurt, promote, or retire.

1731
01:22:00,020 --> 01:22:01,140
Yes, exactly.

1732
01:22:01,140 --> 01:22:02,900
And then you need other groups.

1733
01:22:02,900 --> 01:22:05,420
And then you have to realize that this is not

1734
01:22:05,420 --> 01:22:07,140
your only identity.

1735
01:22:07,140 --> 01:22:10,700
So just because this one is not as active anymore,

1736
01:22:10,700 --> 01:22:13,420
well, there might be other identities, other groups

1737
01:22:13,420 --> 01:22:16,420
that you need to belong to.

1738
01:22:16,420 --> 01:22:19,100
I think we also realized during COVID

1739
01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:23,180
that we could not replace meetings in real life

1740
01:22:23,180 --> 01:22:24,780
on screen.

1741
01:22:24,780 --> 01:22:28,500
There's something that is so lost when we meet in screens.

1742
01:22:28,500 --> 01:22:30,820
We're a lifesaver during COVID, but we all

1743
01:22:30,820 --> 01:22:35,620
felt lonely because we evolved to survive in a group.

1744
01:22:35,620 --> 01:22:38,380
And that's why these social drives in us

1745
01:22:38,380 --> 01:22:41,020
are so incredibly strong.

1746
01:22:41,020 --> 01:22:43,940
I saw a study recently done at Yale

1747
01:22:43,940 --> 01:22:47,020
where you had people solving a math problem.

1748
01:22:47,020 --> 01:22:49,940
First, they tested how good they were at math.

1749
01:22:49,940 --> 01:22:52,540
And then they were given a problem,

1750
01:22:52,540 --> 01:22:55,860
which was that you have a skin cream, and you apply it.

1751
01:22:55,860 --> 01:22:57,940
People use it to have bad skin.

1752
01:22:57,940 --> 01:23:02,020
And you have x number of people using the cream.

1753
01:23:02,020 --> 01:23:07,060
And of those, y number of people get the good effect.

1754
01:23:07,060 --> 01:23:10,620
And then you have to calculate how good is the skin cream,

1755
01:23:10,620 --> 01:23:12,140
how efficient is it?

1756
01:23:12,140 --> 01:23:17,020
And it turned out that the ones who were good at math,

1757
01:23:17,020 --> 01:23:19,260
they were good at solving this problem.

1758
01:23:19,260 --> 01:23:20,700
That's not strange.

1759
01:23:20,700 --> 01:23:25,700
Now, these participants were given a new problem.

1760
01:23:25,700 --> 01:23:33,940
And this time, it was if you punish crime more severely,

1761
01:23:33,940 --> 01:23:38,580
or sorry, if you restrict the access to guns,

1762
01:23:38,580 --> 01:23:42,620
what happens for criminality in a certain country?

1763
01:23:42,620 --> 01:23:45,140
So if, for instance, in the US, you have harder,

1764
01:23:45,140 --> 01:23:47,220
it's more difficult to get a hold of a gun,

1765
01:23:47,220 --> 01:23:50,780
what happens to criminality 20 years later?

1766
01:23:50,780 --> 01:23:53,940
This was actually the same problem mathematically

1767
01:23:53,940 --> 01:23:57,420
as whether the skin cream will work or not.

1768
01:23:57,420 --> 01:23:59,300
But this time, it's not skin cream.

1769
01:23:59,300 --> 01:24:01,460
It's something that is politically charged,

1770
01:24:01,460 --> 01:24:05,180
the way you view your ability to carry,

1771
01:24:05,180 --> 01:24:07,340
if you can carry a gun or not.

1772
01:24:07,340 --> 01:24:11,740
And now it turned out that mathematical ability had

1773
01:24:11,740 --> 01:24:16,380
no effect whatsoever on how good you were at solving the problem.

1774
01:24:16,380 --> 01:24:20,940
What affected that was where you stood politically.

1775
01:24:20,940 --> 01:24:24,260
Democrats had easier solving the problem

1776
01:24:24,260 --> 01:24:30,020
if it was constructed in such a way that restrictions on guns

1777
01:24:30,020 --> 01:24:32,660
gave less criminality.

1778
01:24:32,660 --> 01:24:35,260
And for Republicans, it was the other way around.

1779
01:24:35,260 --> 01:24:39,620
If the problem was constructed so that gun criminality did not

1780
01:24:39,620 --> 01:24:42,340
have an effect on criminal, gun restrictions did not

1781
01:24:42,340 --> 01:24:45,020
have any effect on criminality, the Republicans

1782
01:24:45,020 --> 01:24:46,900
solved the problem better.

1783
01:24:46,900 --> 01:24:50,140
So in other words, they solved the problem

1784
01:24:50,140 --> 01:24:55,820
if it was in line with the group's opinion.

1785
01:24:55,820 --> 01:25:01,260
And that shows that the brain can make itself more stupid,

1786
01:25:01,260 --> 01:25:04,540
so to speak, because it has already decided

1787
01:25:04,540 --> 01:25:06,500
what is the correct answer.

1788
01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:10,780
And the correct answer is what the group thinks.

1789
01:25:10,780 --> 01:25:15,100
The brain did not evolve to solve mathematical riddles.

1790
01:25:15,100 --> 01:25:17,900
It evolved to stay in a group.

1791
01:25:17,900 --> 01:25:20,540
And that shows so beautifully, I think,

1792
01:25:20,540 --> 01:25:23,300
that politics can make us more stupid.

1793
01:25:23,300 --> 01:25:26,460
We have already decided what the right answer is.

1794
01:25:26,460 --> 01:25:28,420
And that is what the group thinks.

1795
01:25:28,420 --> 01:25:32,820
So that shows that group belonging triumphs

1796
01:25:32,820 --> 01:25:34,980
logical thinking for most of us.

1797
01:25:34,980 --> 01:25:37,780
I am so glad that you said what you just said.

1798
01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:39,980
I think the perfect time, and this may not

1799
01:25:39,980 --> 01:25:45,620
have been the case in Sweden, but to see that high stress,

1800
01:25:45,620 --> 01:25:49,700
and I say tribalism in the negative context now,

1801
01:25:49,700 --> 01:25:52,940
getting in the way of critical thinking was COVID.

1802
01:25:52,940 --> 01:25:54,580
The whole time that that happened,

1803
01:25:54,580 --> 01:25:57,380
I was trying to put out good podcasts just like this.

1804
01:25:57,380 --> 01:25:59,860
And I'm talking about mental health and sleep

1805
01:25:59,860 --> 01:26:02,500
and nutrition and time in nature and all the things

1806
01:26:02,500 --> 01:26:04,980
that we can control that will make us healthier and more

1807
01:26:04,980 --> 01:26:07,820
resistant to a virus when we get it,

1808
01:26:07,820 --> 01:26:10,620
because it's going to come across us at some point.

1809
01:26:10,620 --> 01:26:12,780
There's no hiding from it.

1810
01:26:12,780 --> 01:26:14,860
And I was just, I mean, honestly, I

1811
01:26:14,860 --> 01:26:18,660
was disgusted at how easily people were divided

1812
01:26:18,660 --> 01:26:21,980
and how critical thinking was a rarity.

1813
01:26:21,980 --> 01:26:25,820
It was almost heresy to say that the ill health of an individual

1814
01:26:25,820 --> 01:26:28,220
was contributing to the death when they get this virus.

1815
01:26:28,220 --> 01:26:32,340
And how dare you suggest that my 300 pound grandmother with COPD

1816
01:26:32,340 --> 01:26:34,860
didn't die from the virus itself?

1817
01:26:34,860 --> 01:26:35,820
But you can affect that.

1818
01:26:35,820 --> 01:26:38,780
You can make her 280 pounds, and you can get her walking

1819
01:26:38,780 --> 01:26:41,460
and get her out in sunshine and all these things.

1820
01:26:41,460 --> 01:26:43,340
But again, you see it now.

1821
01:26:43,340 --> 01:26:47,380
We're about to go into the election season here in America.

1822
01:26:47,380 --> 01:26:49,860
And the middle of the road, what are the things that actually

1823
01:26:49,860 --> 01:26:50,820
affect people?

1824
01:26:50,820 --> 01:26:54,780
Education, safety, like I said, the obesity crisis,

1825
01:26:54,780 --> 01:26:57,940
the mental health crisis that we have, opioids, none of that

1826
01:26:57,940 --> 01:26:58,580
is there.

1827
01:26:58,580 --> 01:27:02,260
It's all, oh, this person did this, or this person did that.

1828
01:27:02,260 --> 01:27:06,780
And understanding the tribalism behind the psychology,

1829
01:27:06,780 --> 01:27:08,340
which is obviously very deliberate.

1830
01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:10,300
I mean, these people in these political parties

1831
01:27:10,300 --> 01:27:12,980
have psychologists that work for them to understand.

1832
01:27:12,980 --> 01:27:17,180
But this divide into tribes, pigeonhole people,

1833
01:27:17,180 --> 01:27:20,060
and then set them against each other,

1834
01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:22,980
it makes perfect psychological sense

1835
01:27:22,980 --> 01:27:27,300
how that everyone else is doing it, that mob mentality,

1836
01:27:27,300 --> 01:27:31,420
can actually be the enemy of critical thinking.

1837
01:27:31,420 --> 01:27:32,460
Yes, exactly.

1838
01:27:32,460 --> 01:27:35,260
And not because we're broken, but because we're

1839
01:27:35,260 --> 01:27:36,620
functioning the way we should.

1840
01:27:36,620 --> 01:27:39,860
We have a brain that wants to keep us alive.

1841
01:27:39,860 --> 01:27:43,540
And to be part of a group was incredibly important,

1842
01:27:43,540 --> 01:27:48,980
much more important than having the right opinion, et cetera.

1843
01:27:48,980 --> 01:27:52,020
So that's why we are so tribal, and that's

1844
01:27:52,020 --> 01:27:56,740
why our opinions are so dependent on a group.

1845
01:27:56,740 --> 01:28:00,140
And it's easy to theorize about these things

1846
01:28:00,140 --> 01:28:02,700
in a discussion like this, but my advice

1847
01:28:02,700 --> 01:28:05,940
is to really look at yourself from this perspective

1848
01:28:05,940 --> 01:28:08,260
and how much of your own opinions

1849
01:28:08,260 --> 01:28:14,900
are being pulled and swayed by these tribal parts

1850
01:28:14,900 --> 01:28:15,980
of our psychology.

1851
01:28:15,980 --> 01:28:21,420
I mean, when you start examining yourself self-critically,

1852
01:28:21,420 --> 01:28:24,620
you will see that this applies to me, too, of course.

1853
01:28:24,620 --> 01:28:26,380
I'm just like this.

1854
01:28:26,380 --> 01:28:30,940
But just to be aware of it is at least the first step

1855
01:28:30,940 --> 01:28:36,620
of becoming slightly detached yourself from it.

1856
01:28:36,620 --> 01:28:39,460
There's a phrase you are, I forget how it is now,

1857
01:28:39,460 --> 01:28:41,900
the sum total of the five people closest to you

1858
01:28:41,900 --> 01:28:42,900
or something like that.

1859
01:28:42,900 --> 01:28:45,460
So I think this can be used in a positive way.

1860
01:28:45,460 --> 01:28:48,780
If you start putting yourself into tribal groups

1861
01:28:48,780 --> 01:28:51,900
that are critical thinkers, that do enjoy exercise,

1862
01:28:51,900 --> 01:28:56,140
that are trying to abstain from alcohol, whatever it is,

1863
01:28:56,140 --> 01:29:00,820
I think you can use this very psychology in your favor then.

1864
01:29:00,820 --> 01:29:01,860
Yes, good point.

1865
01:29:01,860 --> 01:29:03,140
Absolutely.

1866
01:29:03,140 --> 01:29:07,500
There's two sides to the coin always.

1867
01:29:07,500 --> 01:29:12,420
And I mean, as I said, exercise is incredibly important for us.

1868
01:29:12,420 --> 01:29:14,300
At the same time, we're lazy.

1869
01:29:14,300 --> 01:29:16,260
We want to stay in the couch.

1870
01:29:16,260 --> 01:29:17,180
Why is that?

1871
01:29:17,180 --> 01:29:22,500
Well, that's because 99.9% of all previous generations

1872
01:29:22,500 --> 01:29:26,660
of humans did not die from overeating

1873
01:29:26,660 --> 01:29:28,540
or cardiovascular disease or cancer.

1874
01:29:28,540 --> 01:29:30,580
They died from starvation.

1875
01:29:30,580 --> 01:29:34,180
To eat everything you could find made a lot of sense,

1876
01:29:34,180 --> 01:29:38,100
especially if it contained a lot of calories.

1877
01:29:38,100 --> 01:29:42,300
And when that sort of craving for calories is put into a world,

1878
01:29:42,300 --> 01:29:44,540
well, there's abundance of calories,

1879
01:29:44,540 --> 01:29:46,100
then we will overeat.

1880
01:29:46,100 --> 01:29:48,860
And the amount of energy is not just dependent, of course,

1881
01:29:48,860 --> 01:29:52,220
on how much we eat, but also on how much energy we use.

1882
01:29:52,220 --> 01:29:54,900
And it costs energy to move.

1883
01:29:54,900 --> 01:29:57,100
That's why we want to be in the couch.

1884
01:29:57,100 --> 01:29:59,500
Don't waste your valuable energy.

1885
01:29:59,500 --> 01:30:02,140
Don't go running or something stupid like that.

1886
01:30:02,140 --> 01:30:05,340
That's why we're lazy by nature, not because we're broken,

1887
01:30:05,340 --> 01:30:08,220
but because we're functioning.

1888
01:30:08,220 --> 01:30:11,780
And someone might think, OK, but if you're overweight,

1889
01:30:11,780 --> 01:30:15,820
you obviously have excess calories.

1890
01:30:15,820 --> 01:30:19,100
There's no risk that you will starve to death

1891
01:30:19,100 --> 01:30:20,580
if you go for a run.

1892
01:30:20,580 --> 01:30:25,700
And the point is that during almost our entire history,

1893
01:30:25,700 --> 01:30:28,740
there wasn't any overweight humans at all.

1894
01:30:28,740 --> 01:30:30,700
Overweight and obesity was basically

1895
01:30:30,700 --> 01:30:32,460
non-existent problems.

1896
01:30:32,460 --> 01:30:35,780
But threatening starvation was a huge problem.

1897
01:30:35,780 --> 01:30:38,100
And that means that when we lose weight,

1898
01:30:38,100 --> 01:30:41,100
the body is trying to prevent that.

1899
01:30:41,100 --> 01:30:42,500
It's fighting that.

1900
01:30:42,500 --> 01:30:45,780
So when we lose weight, our hunger increases.

1901
01:30:45,780 --> 01:30:48,500
The basic metabolism, the amount of energy

1902
01:30:48,500 --> 01:30:51,540
that your body uses as a rest actually drops somewhat

1903
01:30:51,540 --> 01:30:52,460
when you lose weight.

1904
01:30:52,460 --> 01:30:54,980
And the amount of energy extracted from your bowels

1905
01:30:54,980 --> 01:30:56,660
increase when you lose weight.

1906
01:30:56,660 --> 01:31:00,340
And all of this is your body fighting threatening starvation,

1907
01:31:00,340 --> 01:31:04,460
even if it's from a high level, even if it's from obesity level,

1908
01:31:04,460 --> 01:31:06,860
it starts fighting starvation because it never

1909
01:31:06,860 --> 01:31:09,700
evolved to handle obesity.

1910
01:31:09,700 --> 01:31:13,540
And that means that we are lazy.

1911
01:31:13,540 --> 01:31:18,300
And I try to work my way around my laziness

1912
01:31:18,300 --> 01:31:22,540
by making an appointment to go for a run or a walk.

1913
01:31:22,540 --> 01:31:25,620
Because you don't want to be the one who always

1914
01:31:25,620 --> 01:31:27,220
breaks these appointments.

1915
01:31:27,220 --> 01:31:29,620
You don't want to be the one who says, ah, maybe

1916
01:31:29,620 --> 01:31:31,500
I have a little bit of cold.

1917
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:33,940
Maybe it's sort of rainy outside.

1918
01:31:33,940 --> 01:31:34,740
We shouldn't do this.

1919
01:31:34,740 --> 01:31:37,980
No, if you made an appointment, you want to do it.

1920
01:31:37,980 --> 01:31:41,820
So therefore, I schedule these appointments with my friends.

1921
01:31:41,820 --> 01:31:45,140
And then that brings me out of the couch.

1922
01:31:45,140 --> 01:31:48,180
So in that sense, I think learning more

1923
01:31:48,180 --> 01:31:50,580
about the brain and not just how we function,

1924
01:31:50,580 --> 01:31:54,140
but why we function makes it possible for us

1925
01:31:54,140 --> 01:31:59,100
to build our way around the brain's Achilles' heels.

1926
01:31:59,100 --> 01:32:02,340
And I think that the more we learn about our biology,

1927
01:32:02,340 --> 01:32:05,140
the freer we become from our biology.

1928
01:32:05,140 --> 01:32:06,340
Absolutely.

1929
01:32:06,340 --> 01:32:08,740
Your new book is called The Happiness Cure.

1930
01:32:08,740 --> 01:32:12,060
So having written on various other elements

1931
01:32:12,060 --> 01:32:14,380
of mental health, what was it that spurred you

1932
01:32:14,380 --> 01:32:15,300
to write this book?

1933
01:32:15,300 --> 01:32:18,980
And then let's talk about what people can find.

1934
01:32:18,980 --> 01:32:23,660
Well, we have never lived longer than we do today.

1935
01:32:23,660 --> 01:32:25,980
We have never been wealthier than we are today

1936
01:32:25,980 --> 01:32:28,340
and healthier.

1937
01:32:28,340 --> 01:32:30,540
And still, so many seem to be struggling

1938
01:32:30,540 --> 01:32:31,540
with their mental health.

1939
01:32:31,540 --> 01:32:33,980
And in Sweden, one in eight adults

1940
01:32:33,980 --> 01:32:35,860
are on antidepressant medication.

1941
01:32:35,860 --> 01:32:38,020
And according to the World Health Organization,

1942
01:32:38,020 --> 01:32:42,300
280 million individuals suffer from a depression.

1943
01:32:42,300 --> 01:32:44,460
And according to the World Health Organization,

1944
01:32:44,460 --> 01:32:47,100
depression will cause more burden of disease

1945
01:32:47,100 --> 01:32:51,580
than any other form of disease during the coming decade.

1946
01:32:51,580 --> 01:32:56,860
And why is it that we have it so good, but still feel so bad?

1947
01:32:56,860 --> 01:32:58,620
That's the heart of the book.

1948
01:32:58,620 --> 01:33:00,500
And that's a question that I have

1949
01:33:00,500 --> 01:33:03,140
thought about my entire working life

1950
01:33:03,140 --> 01:33:06,420
and actually my entire adult life.

1951
01:33:06,420 --> 01:33:08,500
And gradually, I've come to realize

1952
01:33:08,500 --> 01:33:10,540
that if you want to understand it,

1953
01:33:10,540 --> 01:33:12,740
you have to start with the brain.

1954
01:33:12,740 --> 01:33:16,020
And this book starts by asking, what are feelings?

1955
01:33:16,020 --> 01:33:17,140
What are emotions?

1956
01:33:17,140 --> 01:33:19,260
Why do we have to feel anything?

1957
01:33:19,260 --> 01:33:22,140
And from that, it goes to anxiety

1958
01:33:22,140 --> 01:33:26,380
and shows that anxiety is something that is a defense

1959
01:33:26,380 --> 01:33:28,900
mechanism by the brain.

1960
01:33:28,900 --> 01:33:30,620
And it looks at depressions.

1961
01:33:30,620 --> 01:33:32,060
What are depressions?

1962
01:33:32,060 --> 01:33:34,500
And what causes them?

1963
01:33:34,500 --> 01:33:37,100
It looks at inflammation.

1964
01:33:37,100 --> 01:33:39,940
And inflammation is, as you might know,

1965
01:33:39,940 --> 01:33:43,940
the body's response to basically all.

1966
01:33:43,940 --> 01:33:48,140
If I scratch my bit like this, it becomes a slight inflammation.

1967
01:33:48,140 --> 01:33:50,940
If I have a cardiovascular heart attack,

1968
01:33:50,940 --> 01:33:54,500
I have inflammation in my coronary arteries and so on.

1969
01:33:54,500 --> 01:33:59,980
So it's a response in the body that is very, very general.

1970
01:33:59,980 --> 01:34:03,740
And inflammation probably evolved

1971
01:34:03,740 --> 01:34:08,940
to help us protect against virus and bacteria.

1972
01:34:08,940 --> 01:34:12,980
And if we have an infection in our bodies,

1973
01:34:12,980 --> 01:34:17,060
for instance, by COVID virus, the level of inflammation rises.

1974
01:34:17,060 --> 01:34:20,420
And that sends a signal to the brain,

1975
01:34:20,420 --> 01:34:23,020
which makes us feel crappy.

1976
01:34:23,020 --> 01:34:27,260
It makes us want to withdraw, to hide under the blanket.

1977
01:34:27,260 --> 01:34:30,860
And that is probably because when we have an infection,

1978
01:34:30,860 --> 01:34:33,420
the immune system uses a lot of energy.

1979
01:34:33,420 --> 01:34:36,420
And then we can't spend that energy on movement

1980
01:34:36,420 --> 01:34:37,700
or anything else.

1981
01:34:37,700 --> 01:34:42,580
So that the brain amps down or reduces our motivation

1982
01:34:42,580 --> 01:34:44,380
to move and to do anything, because it

1983
01:34:44,380 --> 01:34:48,420
wants to save energy to fight this infection.

1984
01:34:48,420 --> 01:34:51,180
That makes a lot of sense.

1985
01:34:51,180 --> 01:34:54,300
However, our modern lifestyle factors,

1986
01:34:54,300 --> 01:34:58,900
such as sitting too much, eating too much processed food,

1987
01:34:58,900 --> 01:35:02,500
sleeping too little, stressing too much,

1988
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:05,060
also causes inflammation.

1989
01:35:05,060 --> 01:35:06,780
And here's the main point.

1990
01:35:06,780 --> 01:35:10,700
The brain cannot distinguish whether that inflammation comes

1991
01:35:10,700 --> 01:35:14,700
from an infection or from modern lifestyle factors.

1992
01:35:14,700 --> 01:35:18,540
It will reduce motivation.

1993
01:35:18,540 --> 01:35:21,980
And it will trigger this defense mechanism

1994
01:35:21,980 --> 01:35:25,700
that it once helped us preserve energy for the immune system.

1995
01:35:25,700 --> 01:35:31,540
That mechanism will be triggered by modern lifestyle factors.

1996
01:35:31,540 --> 01:35:34,860
And if you think this sounds like speculation,

1997
01:35:34,860 --> 01:35:35,900
that's a good point.

1998
01:35:35,900 --> 01:35:39,100
But actually, now it's been shown again and again

1999
01:35:39,100 --> 01:35:41,380
that about a third of all depressions

2000
01:35:41,380 --> 01:35:46,300
seems to come from increased levels of inflammation.

2001
01:35:46,300 --> 01:35:49,780
So it seems like an old defense mechanism

2002
01:35:49,780 --> 01:35:52,740
is going berserk in our modern society.

2003
01:35:52,740 --> 01:35:56,260
And that might be one of the reasons why we feel so bad,

2004
01:35:56,260 --> 01:35:58,180
even though we have it so good.

2005
01:35:58,180 --> 01:35:59,620
So that's one chapter of the book.

2006
01:35:59,620 --> 01:36:01,340
And I also, of course, look at what

2007
01:36:01,340 --> 01:36:06,780
we can do about the epidemic of mental illness.

2008
01:36:06,780 --> 01:36:11,980
And then I look at exercise and loneliness prevention.

2009
01:36:11,980 --> 01:36:15,420
And in the end, I look at the happiness, what it actually is,

2010
01:36:15,420 --> 01:36:20,540
and how we should view that from an evolutionary perspective.

2011
01:36:20,540 --> 01:36:26,660
So everything I've learned as a psychiatrist, as a clinician,

2012
01:36:26,660 --> 01:36:30,620
and in my other books, that led up to that book,

2013
01:36:30,620 --> 01:36:34,500
The Happiness Cure, which is the one that I'm most proud of.

2014
01:36:34,500 --> 01:36:35,900
There is a pursuit of happiness.

2015
01:36:35,900 --> 01:36:38,300
But I think we're so deep in the hole in many areas.

2016
01:36:38,300 --> 01:36:40,060
And like you said, just physically,

2017
01:36:40,060 --> 01:36:44,860
if we've got 70% overweight or obese, that means 70%

2018
01:36:44,860 --> 01:36:46,580
inflamed, if not more.

2019
01:36:46,580 --> 01:36:48,140
That means 70% that obviously are

2020
01:36:48,140 --> 01:36:51,860
going to be more challenged to have a good mental health.

2021
01:36:51,860 --> 01:36:55,100
Some might be absolutely fine and just in utopia.

2022
01:36:55,100 --> 01:36:57,700
But I would argue that if the body is already ailing,

2023
01:36:57,700 --> 01:37:01,220
that's going to be affecting the brain as well.

2024
01:37:01,220 --> 01:37:02,340
Yes, exactly.

2025
01:37:02,340 --> 01:37:05,660
And we tend to make the distinction between body

2026
01:37:05,660 --> 01:37:10,340
and brain, like there were brains that floated around

2027
01:37:10,340 --> 01:37:12,060
in a jar or something.

2028
01:37:12,060 --> 01:37:15,020
But the brain and the body is one in the same system.

2029
01:37:15,020 --> 01:37:18,340
And the brain evolved to regulate the body.

2030
01:37:18,340 --> 01:37:21,420
And as bodies became more complex and bigger

2031
01:37:21,420 --> 01:37:26,100
during evolutionary time, brains became bigger and more complex.

2032
01:37:26,100 --> 01:37:30,940
And the brain is using signals not just from our senses

2033
01:37:30,940 --> 01:37:33,620
but from the body to create feelings.

2034
01:37:33,620 --> 01:37:35,580
In every waking moment of our life,

2035
01:37:35,580 --> 01:37:39,780
it compiles the input from the senses, what we see and hear

2036
01:37:39,780 --> 01:37:44,300
and feel, with the internal information from the body.

2037
01:37:44,300 --> 01:37:48,400
And based on that, it creates a feeling

2038
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:52,540
because it wants to tilt our behavior in such a way that

2039
01:37:52,540 --> 01:37:53,820
helped us survive.

2040
01:37:53,820 --> 01:37:56,820
And that tilting might be a feeling of hunger,

2041
01:37:56,820 --> 01:37:58,900
take care of your nutritional needs.

2042
01:37:58,900 --> 01:38:00,700
It might be a feeling of loneliness,

2043
01:38:00,700 --> 01:38:03,420
take care of your social needs, and so on and so forth.

2044
01:38:03,420 --> 01:38:05,340
But the internal state of our bodies

2045
01:38:05,340 --> 01:38:08,420
is incredibly important for our feelings.

2046
01:38:08,420 --> 01:38:10,300
And I think we have forgotten about that.

2047
01:38:10,300 --> 01:38:12,780
We have thought that the body is one thing

2048
01:38:12,780 --> 01:38:14,940
and the brain is one thing separately.

2049
01:38:14,940 --> 01:38:17,340
And if you want to affect the body, you could exercise.

2050
01:38:17,340 --> 01:38:19,140
But the brain is something different.

2051
01:38:19,140 --> 01:38:20,340
And it isn't.

2052
01:38:20,340 --> 01:38:22,740
It's one system.

2053
01:38:22,740 --> 01:38:24,940
When I first moved to America, there

2054
01:38:24,940 --> 01:38:28,860
was the old kind of praise, the American dream.

2055
01:38:28,860 --> 01:38:31,540
And that used to be just a plot of land

2056
01:38:31,540 --> 01:38:33,000
where you'd be growing your own food

2057
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:35,420
and a place for your children and your dog to run around

2058
01:38:35,420 --> 01:38:37,620
and you're outside and you're in the dirt.

2059
01:38:37,620 --> 01:38:41,000
And you're cooking and you just, it's a community element.

2060
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:45,700
By the time I moved to the US, it was before the crash.

2061
01:38:45,700 --> 01:38:49,260
And the American dream had become a 4,000 square foot

2062
01:38:49,260 --> 01:38:52,580
house, a Winnebago, like a camper van.

2063
01:38:52,580 --> 01:38:53,420
Jet skis.

2064
01:38:53,420 --> 01:38:56,220
And it was just this constant one-upmanship.

2065
01:38:56,220 --> 01:38:57,980
And so I think for a long time now,

2066
01:38:57,980 --> 01:38:59,700
Americans have always been presented with,

2067
01:38:59,700 --> 01:39:00,740
you don't have enough.

2068
01:39:00,740 --> 01:39:03,380
But if you had this, you'd be happy.

2069
01:39:03,380 --> 01:39:06,900
When you unpacked the world, the idea of happiness,

2070
01:39:06,900 --> 01:39:08,580
what were some of the kind of areas

2071
01:39:08,580 --> 01:39:11,980
that you realized were the actual important parts?

2072
01:39:14,620 --> 01:39:20,620
Well, happiness is a tricky topic to talk about

2073
01:39:20,620 --> 01:39:24,260
because it sounds like you're about to fall into a ditch

2074
01:39:24,260 --> 01:39:26,060
filled with wellness cliches.

2075
01:39:26,060 --> 01:39:30,220
But if you ask people what happiness is,

2076
01:39:30,220 --> 01:39:33,340
many of them seems to believe that it's feeling good

2077
01:39:33,340 --> 01:39:35,660
all the time, constant pleasure.

2078
01:39:35,660 --> 01:39:39,500
And if you have that definition, you will be disappointed

2079
01:39:39,500 --> 01:39:43,180
because positive feelings are supposed to be short-term.

2080
01:39:43,180 --> 01:39:45,100
They will soon go up in smoke.

2081
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:48,020
The problem is that we are led to believe

2082
01:39:48,020 --> 01:39:51,180
that we could feel good all the time in advertisement

2083
01:39:51,180 --> 01:39:52,340
and on social media.

2084
01:39:52,340 --> 01:39:55,260
That means that we are comparing our inner self

2085
01:39:55,260 --> 01:39:57,780
to a goal that is basically unreachable.

2086
01:39:57,780 --> 01:39:59,220
And then we feel crappy.

2087
01:39:59,220 --> 01:40:00,620
We feel that we're broken.

2088
01:40:01,820 --> 01:40:04,100
If you use the definition on happiness

2089
01:40:04,100 --> 01:40:06,860
that is used in psychiatric research,

2090
01:40:06,860 --> 01:40:09,100
which is that you are contempt

2091
01:40:09,100 --> 01:40:12,340
with the long-term direction of your life.

2092
01:40:12,340 --> 01:40:15,580
If you use that definition, it's clear

2093
01:40:15,580 --> 01:40:18,460
that the most important thing for happiness

2094
01:40:18,460 --> 01:40:22,900
is relations, relations, and relations.

2095
01:40:23,820 --> 01:40:26,660
And this is not just something that I'm guessing.

2096
01:40:26,660 --> 01:40:28,580
This is the result of a study

2097
01:40:28,580 --> 01:40:31,700
that started in the 1930s at Harvard.

2098
01:40:33,180 --> 01:40:38,180
And when it was started, Harvard students

2099
01:40:38,180 --> 01:40:43,180
and people who lived in the Boston area were recruited

2100
01:40:43,180 --> 01:40:46,180
and they were followed with interviews

2101
01:40:46,180 --> 01:40:48,020
and with medical tests.

2102
01:40:48,020 --> 01:40:51,780
And when they got older, their kids were included

2103
01:40:51,780 --> 01:40:53,780
and even their grandchildren.

2104
01:40:53,780 --> 01:40:56,300
And this study has been going for 90 years now.

2105
01:40:56,300 --> 01:40:59,220
And I met with the current director,

2106
01:40:59,220 --> 01:41:02,020
Robert Waldinger at Harvard, fabulous guy.

2107
01:41:03,220 --> 01:41:06,660
And he said, we knew that relations would be important,

2108
01:41:06,660 --> 01:41:08,340
but not this important.

2109
01:41:08,340 --> 01:41:11,300
It keeps us healthy and it's in the end,

2110
01:41:11,300 --> 01:41:13,380
it's what makes us happy.

2111
01:41:13,380 --> 01:41:16,700
And when you think about it, it's not so strange

2112
01:41:16,700 --> 01:41:19,900
since we did not survive by ourselves.

2113
01:41:19,900 --> 01:41:22,700
That's why we suffer so much from loneliness.

2114
01:41:22,700 --> 01:41:25,500
So happiness is relations.

2115
01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:30,500
That's how I would summarize it.

2116
01:41:30,500 --> 01:41:34,380
I think we saw that playing out during COVID.

2117
01:41:34,380 --> 01:41:35,900
Families and friendships were told,

2118
01:41:35,900 --> 01:41:38,620
no, don't be around each other, make it virtual

2119
01:41:38,620 --> 01:41:42,020
or buy a giant plastic bag and hug each other through that.

2120
01:41:42,020 --> 01:41:45,300
Some of the ridiculous scenes that we saw, but it's true.

2121
01:41:45,300 --> 01:41:48,900
I mean, the incarceration model, ironically,

2122
01:41:48,900 --> 01:41:52,620
I think that showed how mentally damaging that is too

2123
01:41:52,620 --> 01:41:55,620
to just lock people in their homes where it was like a cell

2124
01:41:55,620 --> 01:41:57,140
and then keep them away from other people,

2125
01:41:57,140 --> 01:41:59,620
keep them away from these nurturing relationships.

2126
01:41:59,620 --> 01:42:03,220
So I think the pandemic gave us a kind of longitudinal study

2127
01:42:03,220 --> 01:42:06,620
on the detrimental effects of breaking relationships.

2128
01:42:06,620 --> 01:42:09,620
Yeah, absolutely. We all felt it.

2129
01:42:09,620 --> 01:42:12,620
But at the same time, you might argue,

2130
01:42:12,620 --> 01:42:14,620
why then are we not doing these things

2131
01:42:14,620 --> 01:42:16,220
that makes us happy in the end?

2132
01:42:16,220 --> 01:42:18,420
And it boils down to what I said in the beginning.

2133
01:42:18,420 --> 01:42:21,220
The brain's main job is not to make us happy,

2134
01:42:21,220 --> 01:42:23,620
it's to keep us alive.

2135
01:42:23,620 --> 01:42:25,420
And it wants to see danger everywhere

2136
01:42:25,420 --> 01:42:26,620
because that kept us alive.

2137
01:42:26,620 --> 01:42:29,620
It wants to eat everything because that kept us alive.

2138
01:42:29,620 --> 01:42:33,420
It doesn't want to use energy to move

2139
01:42:33,420 --> 01:42:34,620
unless we really have to.

2140
01:42:34,620 --> 01:42:36,620
Because that kept us alive.

2141
01:42:36,620 --> 01:42:39,620
And to constantly scan your surroundings,

2142
01:42:39,620 --> 01:42:42,220
something there, there, there, that's also kept us alive.

2143
01:42:42,220 --> 01:42:44,620
And that's something that is being exploited

2144
01:42:44,620 --> 01:42:47,620
by digital media in these days.

2145
01:42:47,620 --> 01:42:50,620
So we are driven, I think, by instincts.

2146
01:42:50,620 --> 01:42:54,620
And those instincts helped us to survive in a world

2147
01:42:54,620 --> 01:42:56,620
where there was very little resources.

2148
01:42:56,620 --> 01:42:58,620
But these are not the same instinct

2149
01:42:58,620 --> 01:43:01,620
that makes us happy in a world of overabundance.

2150
01:43:01,620 --> 01:43:04,620
That's what it all boils down to.

2151
01:43:04,620 --> 01:43:07,620
One more question, and I'll go to some closing questions.

2152
01:43:07,620 --> 01:43:11,620
If you were king for a day, what would you change

2153
01:43:11,620 --> 01:43:14,620
so that we could improve the chances of people

2154
01:43:14,620 --> 01:43:17,620
actually pursuing happiness?

2155
01:43:17,620 --> 01:43:23,620
I think if I were to do one thing, I would ban smoking.

2156
01:43:23,620 --> 01:43:25,620
I would face it out.

2157
01:43:25,620 --> 01:43:28,620
If I was just able to do one thing for you,

2158
01:43:28,620 --> 01:43:31,620
if I was just able to do one thing for human health,

2159
01:43:31,620 --> 01:43:32,620
that would probably be it.

2160
01:43:32,620 --> 01:43:34,620
Yeah, you can do lots of things, though.

2161
01:43:34,620 --> 01:43:35,620
What else would you change?

2162
01:43:35,620 --> 01:43:37,620
You're king. You can do whatever you want.

2163
01:43:37,620 --> 01:43:41,620
Oh, right. I could do anything.

2164
01:43:41,620 --> 01:43:43,620
I have to think about that.

2165
01:43:43,620 --> 01:43:46,620
I think we will look back at this period of our history

2166
01:43:46,620 --> 01:43:48,620
that we currently live in.

2167
01:43:48,620 --> 01:43:51,620
Future generations will think it was insane

2168
01:43:51,620 --> 01:43:56,620
to let these incredibly powerful digital technologies

2169
01:43:56,620 --> 01:44:00,620
directed to children and teenagers

2170
01:44:00,620 --> 01:44:04,620
to have them implemented without any regulation

2171
01:44:04,620 --> 01:44:08,620
and make them so addictive and so powerful

2172
01:44:08,620 --> 01:44:11,620
that children and teenagers, and for that, adults,

2173
01:44:11,620 --> 01:44:15,620
doesn't sleep anymore, doesn't meet anymore.

2174
01:44:15,620 --> 01:44:20,620
That would be very, very strange to future generations, I think.

2175
01:44:20,620 --> 01:44:28,620
So I would impose some kind of regulations on social media,

2176
01:44:28,620 --> 01:44:33,620
and I would make them, I think, to a larger degree responsible

2177
01:44:33,620 --> 01:44:36,620
for the kind of information that they are spreading

2178
01:44:36,620 --> 01:44:43,620
because I think it's starting to erode the fabric of society, actually.

2179
01:44:43,620 --> 01:44:46,620
It's not just that, but it's contributing to it.

2180
01:44:46,620 --> 01:44:48,620
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

2181
01:44:48,620 --> 01:44:51,620
And again, this is a reoccurring theme with a lot of people,

2182
01:44:51,620 --> 01:44:53,620
especially when we're talking about mental health.

2183
01:44:53,620 --> 01:44:56,620
The first of the closing questions, we talked about your books.

2184
01:44:56,620 --> 01:44:59,620
Is there a book or are there books written by other people

2185
01:44:59,620 --> 01:45:01,620
that you love to recommend?

2186
01:45:01,620 --> 01:45:05,620
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?

2187
01:45:05,620 --> 01:45:11,620
Yeah, Robert Sapolsky at Stanford has written some great books,

2188
01:45:11,620 --> 01:45:15,620
especially Behave. That's fabulous.

2189
01:45:15,620 --> 01:45:23,620
I love Yuval Harari's books, and I also like Jared Diamond's book,

2190
01:45:23,620 --> 01:45:27,620
Guns, Germs and Steel, that came out in the 90s,

2191
01:45:27,620 --> 01:45:30,620
made me realize that you could, you know,

2192
01:45:30,620 --> 01:45:35,620
I was so impressed by people who took this mega, mega perspective

2193
01:45:35,620 --> 01:45:37,620
and tried to answer the really big questions.

2194
01:45:37,620 --> 01:45:39,620
That was such a book.

2195
01:45:39,620 --> 01:45:41,620
Richard Dawkins' books are very good as well.

2196
01:45:41,620 --> 01:45:48,620
Steven Pinker's books, well, those are your usual suspects.

2197
01:45:48,620 --> 01:45:50,620
Those are the ones that everyone recommends,

2198
01:45:50,620 --> 01:45:52,620
but that's for a good reason.

2199
01:45:52,620 --> 01:45:55,620
I've got Guns, Germs and Steel still sitting on my bookshelf unread.

2200
01:45:55,620 --> 01:45:57,620
I just finished writing my book,

2201
01:45:57,620 --> 01:45:59,620
so that's one of the ones I'm going to have to go back to then

2202
01:45:59,620 --> 01:46:01,620
because I've heard nothing but good things about it.

2203
01:46:01,620 --> 01:46:03,620
You should. You should absolutely do that.

2204
01:46:03,620 --> 01:46:08,620
So what about films and documentaries that you love?

2205
01:46:08,620 --> 01:46:11,620
I watch, I look at a lot of movies.

2206
01:46:11,620 --> 01:46:14,620
I saw one on Netflix about the First World War

2207
01:46:14,620 --> 01:46:19,620
that was fabulous called The Road to War.

2208
01:46:19,620 --> 01:46:23,620
And the First World War is such an interesting period

2209
01:46:23,620 --> 01:46:27,620
where no one wants to end up in this situation,

2210
01:46:27,620 --> 01:46:32,620
but it's just sort of a number of dominoes falling on top of one another,

2211
01:46:32,620 --> 01:46:37,620
and everyone seems to be sleepwalking into this catastrophe,

2212
01:46:37,620 --> 01:46:41,620
which defined the last century.

2213
01:46:41,620 --> 01:46:45,620
So that was a very good one.

2214
01:46:45,620 --> 01:46:48,620
And there was a good documentary, I think,

2215
01:46:48,620 --> 01:46:50,620
called Crime of the Century

2216
01:46:50,620 --> 01:46:57,620
about the opioid epidemic in the US and the Sackler family.

2217
01:46:57,620 --> 01:47:01,620
I read a book called Empire of Pain about it,

2218
01:47:01,620 --> 01:47:05,620
and it just made me furious to read.

2219
01:47:05,620 --> 01:47:08,620
Of course, furious on the producers of the opioids,

2220
01:47:08,620 --> 01:47:15,620
but also on the regulatory regulators who did not do their job,

2221
01:47:15,620 --> 01:47:20,620
and it costs hundreds of thousands of American lives.

2222
01:47:20,620 --> 01:47:22,620
So those I would recommend.

2223
01:47:22,620 --> 01:47:23,620
Thank you.

2224
01:47:23,620 --> 01:47:27,620
There's a great show called Dope Sick that they made about that story.

2225
01:47:27,620 --> 01:47:29,620
It's also very good.

2226
01:47:29,620 --> 01:47:32,620
With that, I just want to throw attention at you.

2227
01:47:32,620 --> 01:47:36,620
One of the kind of aha moments I had somewhat recently,

2228
01:47:36,620 --> 01:47:39,620
and it was off a comment of one of Joe Rogan's guests,

2229
01:47:39,620 --> 01:47:42,620
was a lot of us struggle.

2230
01:47:42,620 --> 01:47:45,620
How, for example, can the Sackler family sleep at night

2231
01:47:45,620 --> 01:47:49,620
knowing that hundreds of thousands of Americans have died from their products?

2232
01:47:49,620 --> 01:47:52,620
How can the head of cigarette companies,

2233
01:47:52,620 --> 01:47:55,620
the makers of weapons when we're going to wars

2234
01:47:55,620 --> 01:47:57,620
that maybe we should never have gone to in the first place,

2235
01:47:57,620 --> 01:48:01,620
how can they sleep at night counting their profits?

2236
01:48:01,620 --> 01:48:03,620
This guest, Sadguru, just made a kind of hint.

2237
01:48:03,620 --> 01:48:05,620
Well, they're struggling too.

2238
01:48:05,620 --> 01:48:07,620
And I never thought about that.

2239
01:48:07,620 --> 01:48:12,620
A fire chief that's totally opposing changing the work week

2240
01:48:12,620 --> 01:48:15,620
whilst they're burying their firefighters.

2241
01:48:15,620 --> 01:48:18,620
When you reflect on some of these individuals,

2242
01:48:18,620 --> 01:48:24,620
do you ever consider that maybe there's a mental health element there

2243
01:48:24,620 --> 01:48:27,620
and they've got unaddressed things, which is creating, in some cases,

2244
01:48:27,620 --> 01:48:32,620
really a kind of sociopathic presentation?

2245
01:48:32,620 --> 01:48:35,620
That's a very good question.

2246
01:48:35,620 --> 01:48:44,620
I mean, if you take psychopathy or narcissism,

2247
01:48:44,620 --> 01:48:46,620
these are partly genetic.

2248
01:48:46,620 --> 01:48:50,620
And you don't become a psychopath or a narcissist just by your gene.

2249
01:48:50,620 --> 01:48:53,620
You become vulnerable to it.

2250
01:48:53,620 --> 01:48:56,620
And if you grow up in a certain environment,

2251
01:48:56,620 --> 01:49:00,620
perhaps you're threatened or neglected,

2252
01:49:00,620 --> 01:49:05,620
then the ones with a vulnerability will become psychopaths

2253
01:49:05,620 --> 01:49:08,620
or sociopaths or narcissists.

2254
01:49:08,620 --> 01:49:13,620
So I think in a way, it's a defense mechanism of the brain

2255
01:49:13,620 --> 01:49:18,620
to put yourself, to as a psychopath, only look at yourself.

2256
01:49:18,620 --> 01:49:21,620
You don't care about anyone else.

2257
01:49:21,620 --> 01:49:25,620
So yes, I guess in a way you could see it through that lens,

2258
01:49:25,620 --> 01:49:31,620
but I also think that humans are incredibly good at rationalizing themselves.

2259
01:49:31,620 --> 01:49:37,620
If you're the CEO of these companies, you find ways to rationalize it.

2260
01:49:37,620 --> 01:49:42,620
You say, I get the salary so I could put my kids to school

2261
01:49:42,620 --> 01:49:46,620
and therefore I'm a good person because I care about my kids, etc.

2262
01:49:46,620 --> 01:49:53,620
We are incredibly good at rationalizing and making up excuses.

2263
01:49:53,620 --> 01:49:59,620
So yes, you have to see it that way too, I think.

2264
01:49:59,620 --> 01:50:05,620
I could never work for such a company,

2265
01:50:05,620 --> 01:50:12,620
but maybe again if I had been born in another family and had different genes,

2266
01:50:12,620 --> 01:50:16,620
it might have felt normal.

2267
01:50:16,620 --> 01:50:23,620
So free will is such a difficult topic.

2268
01:50:23,620 --> 01:50:26,620
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here,

2269
01:50:26,620 --> 01:50:31,620
but my main point is that we are incredibly good at rationalizing ourselves.

2270
01:50:31,620 --> 01:50:36,620
I'm certain that the CEOs of tobacco companies can do that.

2271
01:50:36,620 --> 01:50:40,620
I think some of them might sleep very well at night

2272
01:50:40,620 --> 01:50:46,620
and are completely untouched by the damage that they're causing.

2273
01:50:46,620 --> 01:50:48,620
It's an interesting philosophy.

2274
01:50:48,620 --> 01:50:50,620
There's something that's new to me.

2275
01:50:50,620 --> 01:50:53,620
There's a phrase that people say, don't say what's wrong with you,

2276
01:50:53,620 --> 01:50:55,620
say what happened to you.

2277
01:50:55,620 --> 01:50:58,620
I think this is how did you get to the point where you could sleep

2278
01:50:58,620 --> 01:51:00,620
when your product kills hundreds of thousands of people?

2279
01:51:00,620 --> 01:51:02,620
Let's unpack that.

2280
01:51:02,620 --> 01:51:05,620
You're not actually living happiness yourself,

2281
01:51:05,620 --> 01:51:10,620
but it does reframe a political person or whatever it is.

2282
01:51:10,620 --> 01:51:13,620
Then maybe if we start really understanding that idea,

2283
01:51:13,620 --> 01:51:16,620
we can prevent these people from getting into these positions

2284
01:51:16,620 --> 01:51:20,620
until they get help, therapy, medication, whatever they need to be,

2285
01:51:20,620 --> 01:51:22,620
to refine their ethics,

2286
01:51:22,620 --> 01:51:26,620
and then maybe they'll be the head of a company that's doing good in the world.

2287
01:51:26,620 --> 01:51:33,620
Yeah, I think that's a much better perspective than just blaming.

2288
01:51:33,620 --> 01:51:40,620
But at the same time, having seen the consequences of tobacco and opioids,

2289
01:51:40,620 --> 01:51:42,620
it's difficult to take that perspective.

2290
01:51:42,620 --> 01:51:43,620
It demands a lot of you.

2291
01:51:43,620 --> 01:51:47,620
I get furious when I think about it.

2292
01:51:47,620 --> 01:51:48,620
So it's difficult.

2293
01:51:48,620 --> 01:51:49,620
Absolutely.

2294
01:51:49,620 --> 01:51:50,620
All right, well, the next question,

2295
01:51:50,620 --> 01:51:54,620
is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

2296
01:51:54,620 --> 01:51:59,620
to speak to the first responders, military, and associated professionals of the world?

2297
01:51:59,620 --> 01:52:00,620
Yeah, that one's easy.

2298
01:52:00,620 --> 01:52:04,620
Robert Sapolsky, he's at Stanford.

2299
01:52:04,620 --> 01:52:06,620
He's fabulous.

2300
01:52:06,620 --> 01:52:07,620
He's a fantastic person.

2301
01:52:07,620 --> 01:52:11,620
He's incredibly impressive.

2302
01:52:11,620 --> 01:52:16,620
He's a neuroscientist and a writer or author of popular science books

2303
01:52:16,620 --> 01:52:20,620
and a great thinker and just a great, great, great human being.

2304
01:52:20,620 --> 01:52:22,620
Beautiful. I'll have to work on getting him on then.

2305
01:52:22,620 --> 01:52:24,620
Thank you so much.

2306
01:52:24,620 --> 01:52:26,620
All right, well, then the very last question before we make sure

2307
01:52:26,620 --> 01:52:28,620
everyone knows where to find you and your books,

2308
01:52:28,620 --> 01:52:33,620
what do you do to decompress?

2309
01:52:33,620 --> 01:52:38,620
I read a lot and then I watch a lot of movies and then I play the guitar.

2310
01:52:38,620 --> 01:52:42,620
I started when I was in high school and it's just for fun.

2311
01:52:42,620 --> 01:52:44,620
So those are the three things.

2312
01:52:44,620 --> 01:52:47,620
And of course I exercise.

2313
01:52:47,620 --> 01:52:53,620
But I have seen so many cases of burnout as a psychiatrist.

2314
01:52:53,620 --> 01:53:02,620
And so I have taken it very, very seriously, my recovery very, very seriously.

2315
01:53:02,620 --> 01:53:05,620
And even though I love my work, I could work.

2316
01:53:05,620 --> 01:53:09,620
It's fantastic, but I still need the recovery.

2317
01:53:09,620 --> 01:53:12,620
And I've taken that seriously.

2318
01:53:12,620 --> 01:53:16,620
I found that even doing this and obviously I was a firefighter paramedic for 14 years.

2319
01:53:16,620 --> 01:53:21,620
But then doing this as well, some weeks, some of the stories that I'm hearing

2320
01:53:21,620 --> 01:53:24,620
are just incredibly deep and heartbreaking.

2321
01:53:24,620 --> 01:53:29,620
And I see it in myself, if I'm not careful, if there's too many of those close together,

2322
01:53:29,620 --> 01:53:32,620
it really takes a toll, that kind of secondary trauma.

2323
01:53:32,620 --> 01:53:38,620
So identifying that, and for me, ironically burnout, one of my big signs is my GI tract.

2324
01:53:38,620 --> 01:53:41,620
My guts will let me know if I'm getting close to burnout.

2325
01:53:41,620 --> 01:53:47,620
But yeah, understanding that just seeing or hearing sadness, being an empath,

2326
01:53:47,620 --> 01:53:49,620
that it takes a piece of you.

2327
01:53:49,620 --> 01:53:53,620
And if you're not kind of recharging.

2328
01:53:53,620 --> 01:53:55,620
Empathy is demanding.

2329
01:53:55,620 --> 01:53:59,620
To put yourself into someone else and try to see it from their perspective and feel their pain,

2330
01:53:59,620 --> 01:54:00,620
that's very demanding.

2331
01:54:00,620 --> 01:54:06,620
And then that's why you're in, if you work as a firefighter policeman

2332
01:54:06,620 --> 01:54:12,620
or if you work in healthcare, you need the rest because it takes more toll of you

2333
01:54:12,620 --> 01:54:17,620
than it would if you were in the Excel spreadsheet or something.

2334
01:54:17,620 --> 01:54:21,620
Then you don't need that empathy.

2335
01:54:21,620 --> 01:54:23,620
Well, your latest book is The Happiness Cure.

2336
01:54:23,620 --> 01:54:25,620
As we discussed, you've written several more prior to that.

2337
01:54:25,620 --> 01:54:28,620
Where are the best places to find the books?

2338
01:54:28,620 --> 01:54:34,620
And then are there any places online for people to find more about you and reach out to you?

2339
01:54:34,620 --> 01:54:45,620
Yeah, I have an Instagram account, Anders E. Hansen, and the books can be found on Amazon.

2340
01:54:45,620 --> 01:54:47,620
I have a homepage.

2341
01:54:47,620 --> 01:54:52,620
My publisher has fixed the homepage for me, drandershansen.com.

2342
01:54:52,620 --> 01:54:54,620
So there's information there as well.

2343
01:54:54,620 --> 01:54:55,620
Brilliant.

2344
01:54:55,620 --> 01:54:57,620
Well, I want to say thank you so much.

2345
01:54:57,620 --> 01:54:59,620
This has been such an amazing conversation.

2346
01:54:59,620 --> 01:55:03,620
We've picked apart so many different areas from elements that affect our children,

2347
01:55:03,620 --> 01:55:07,620
elements that affect the men and women in uniform, and then the retirees as well.

2348
01:55:07,620 --> 01:55:09,620
I'm excited to read your book.

2349
01:55:09,620 --> 01:55:10,620
I know it's on its way.

2350
01:55:10,620 --> 01:55:12,620
Karina said she'd sent it.

2351
01:55:12,620 --> 01:55:16,620
But I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time

2352
01:55:16,620 --> 01:55:18,620
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

2353
01:55:18,620 --> 01:55:46,620
It was my pleasure. Thank you.