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To learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with Joel

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Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show Army veteran, Boston firefighter and punk rock vocalist, Michael McColgan.

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So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his early life, the invasion

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of Iraq, the formation of the dropkick Murphys, his journey into the fire service, his powerful

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addiction story, helping the Boston fire department with their mental health and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Michael McColgan.

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Enjoy.

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Well Michael, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you so much to our mutual friend, Noko Nolan, who has connected me with some

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amazing people and you are the most recent, so thank you Noko.

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And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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James, thanks for having me.

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And I'd also like to give a big shout out to Noko Nolan.

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He's a great friend and somebody that I've learned a lot from relative to wellness and

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you know, de-escalation techniques and just living skillfully.

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He's a great, great person.

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He is.

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I think he's that world's most interesting man that almost everyone I know that I've

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met through this podcast, they also know Noko.

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So he's fascinating.

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Yeah, I think that's valid.

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He is definitely the world's most interesting man.

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All right.

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Well, where on planet earth we finding you this evening?

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Well, I'm in Dorchester, Massachusetts right now and it's where I live.

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I work for the Boston Fire Department as Employee Assistance Program counselor.

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It worked as a firefighter and a dispatcher as well.

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Being on the Boston fire job, it's, you know, most members of the job live in Boston proper,

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not all.

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I find it wise to do so because I mean, it's a job where emergency management could evolve

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at a moment's notice.

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So yeah, that's where I'm at tonight.

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Well, I would love to start at the very beginning of your story and obviously we'll work through

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all these different roles that you've held.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Sure.

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I was born in St. Margaret's Hospital, April 6th, 1970 and my father worked for the MBTA,

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Massachusetts Boston and Transit Authority as a track laborer and then later on became

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a foreman of the Green Line track labor crew.

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Then my mom worked for a bookstore, Bonds and Nobles and then she wanted to work after

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that for the Boston Transportation Department at City Hall.

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My brother Donald actually is a union plumber out of local 12.

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He works at Harvard University as an in-house plumber.

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So that's a little background about where I was born and what my family has done for

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work and then extended family like aunts and uncles and cousins are all involved in trade,

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trades and organized labor, healthcare and teaching.

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So growing up here in Dorchester, Massachusetts, which is part of Boston, it's politics and

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being part of the labor movement was sort of like a birthright.

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You're in whether you want to be or not.

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There's a beautiful irony that an Ivy League school needs a tradesman to keep it running.

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Just to think my brother's guidance counselor told him he'd never get to Harvard University.

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There he is.

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I was thinking the same thing.

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This is interesting because obviously you've got certain professions where that kind of

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college makes sense, but there are so many where I think these poor young men and women

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are left with these massive debts with degrees that don't leave to a career.

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I think you and I obviously are certainly in the fire service and paramedic for me as

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well.

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That was trade school and you are literally out in the world saving lives.

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I hope this is the kind of era where we invest a lot more time and money into trades again

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because the purely academic route works for true professionals, lawyers and doctors and

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engineers, but I think there's a lot of disillusioned students with massive debt that it really

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didn't do anything for.

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No, agreed.

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I have people I grew up with and friends who went the academia route and took on a significant

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amount of student loans and the job market was tenuous and difficult for them.

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Like I had stated earlier, a lot of people in my family and even friends beyond that

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were in the trades, building trades as pipe fitters, electricians, laborers, ironworkers,

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etc.

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And plumbers, they have work.

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And if it's not commercial work, some tradespeople can get right into residential side.

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And yeah, like technical schools and trades and things like that, I feel like are always

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going to be required and needed.

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So making those pathways available to students in schools more widely available or talking

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about that earlier would probably be a good thing.

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I'm going to go on a massive tangent now, but it's an interesting perspective because

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you've got a lot of family members and friends that are in professions that have unions as

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well.

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The kind of leadership in our IAFF now obviously has become Boston centric as opposed to Virginia

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centric before.

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And what I've seen in my career is I adore the union philosophy, all of us together fighting

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for better working conditions and safer working environments.

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But at times it's been abused.

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And I think the previous leadership in the IAFF, we discovered there's some pretty massive

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abuse at the top.

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When you look at all these professions and all these labor unions, the ones that you're

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familiar with, which ones are doing it right?

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And what are some of the mistakes being made by certain unions in the fire service that

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aren't producing the kind of improving working environment that we should be seeing?

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I think sadly, with power comes the abuse of it.

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And the leadership that preceded the current leadership in the IAFF definitely got unskillful

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with financial resources.

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That's been well documented.

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I feel like the newer leadership is doing an exceptional job of accounting for every

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red cent that comes in and goes out.

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And that should be how it is all the time.

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And I feel like with building trades and even like the teamsters, for example, there's been

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problematic behavior at the top before.

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At this time, 2024, I think a lot of the general membership, whether it be in the teamsters

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or the IAFF or building trades, want more accountability and more transparency.

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And I feel like the leadership now has to open everything up and put that forward.

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So I feel like in 2024 versus, let's say 1984, 1994, 2004, it's better.

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Excellent.

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Yeah.

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I think even nationally, I was talking to Tulsi Gabbard recently and you just see the

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false economy.

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For example, healthcare in this country, you don't have to be a Harvard graduate economist

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to understand that if you make your country healthier, it will cost less to take care

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of them.

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And that's been completely missed both sides of the aisles for decades now.

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So I hope that this is going to be in our own union, obviously nationally as well, that

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we're going to hold people accountable and start demanding proactive solutions.

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For example, this is the dead horse that I flog all the time.

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Boston, crap me if I'm wrong, you work a 42-hour work week?

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Where I'm attached to headquarters, I work like a 40-hour work week.

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But we're on call constantly with employee assistance.

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We have a full-time employee assistance program and then we're tied in with CISM and peer

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support.

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Fire suppression and fire alarm, the dispatch side have opportune schedule, group schedule,

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four groups and typically have like a 48-hour work schedule per week.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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See, this is what I hope that as a professional, we will do is we'll get that down to 40, 42,

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and ABCD, ABCD, because again, working conditions and sleep are massive things in other unions,

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shipping and aviation and trucking and we're something I hope that we'll catch up on.

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You brought up Tulsi Gabbitt earlier talking about keeping people healthy and that would

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bring down overall health care costs in the US.

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I completely agree with that and that goes just beyond physical health.

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That gets into wellness, that gets into mental health and trumpeting that and amplifying

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that and offering that for people of all professions or folks from all walks of lives is huge.

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It's better to have that ounce of prevention, fitness and wellness and things of the like

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on the front end as opposed to what it costs on the back end.

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I think they've been a big problem in the US.

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Absolutely.

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Well, I want to go back to your timeline.

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When you were a kind of school age, sports and exercise, what were you playing and doing?

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When I was a teenager, I think I was playing intramural basketball at high school, not

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on the varsity team.

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I didn't have the chops or the skills for that.

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Like playing floor hockey, St. Brendan's Parish.

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I think prior to that, I also played little league two baseball.

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My story, I wasn't an exceptional athlete, but I can recall growing up playing little

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league and then playing intramural sports in high school.

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I feel like that kept us out of trouble, being engaged and active in that stuff.

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And sadly, this is just an opinion.

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A lot of people have very different opinions, it seems like technology, smartphones and

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things of the like, it seems like maybe they've taken kids away from that and they're more

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caught up in what's going on and social media and things of the like.

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Yeah, 100%.

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I mean, I've always said that kids and dogs are the same.

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You've got to exercise them, you've got to do things that test their mind.

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So you can't just walk a dog, you've got to throw the ball and do some commands, give

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them some things to actually work on their brain.

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The opposite was COVID.

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Look how so many people felt when they were cooped up and all they could do is watch TV

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and people would start losing their minds.

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So I mean, we've done this great social experiment to show the damaging element of some of these

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devices on our children and they're amazing.

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They have amazing application when used sensibly.

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But if you babysit through a tablet, you end up with these kids that are 14, 15 years old

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with spines like an 80 year old or obese or no muscle tone.

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One day you're hoping they're going to be soldiers and firefighters and they can't.

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They're not even going to be in that pool of candidates.

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So we're doing a massive disservice to them to be able to be the professions that maybe

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they dreamed of and then obviously their longevity as well.

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Yeah, I agree 100% with that.

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I work in addiction with the fire department as an employee assistance program counselor.

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Addiction isn't just booze and drugs.

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It could be gambling, sex, shopping and technology.

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Because phones are a new frontier in addiction and a lot of processed addictions like gambling,

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like sex, like shopping, they have recovery programs.

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But the phones will be the next frontier.

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And I agree with you 100% that people are becoming beholden to it and addicted to it.

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And I mean, you've probably heard this too, like the same dopamine that booze and drugs

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would give to somebody is what people experience when they get hits on social media or likes

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or things of the like.

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So I really feel like as time goes on, there'll be possibly 12 step groups or other programs

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for the phones.

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Another area that you don't normally hear people talk about and it just again, you know,

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I've been on an eight year journey of almost 1000 conversations.

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So I'm constantly learning and kind of reforming my opinions, but the way I think, but the

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you know, what we used to affectionately refer to as the overtime whore, the addiction to

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working so that you don't have to process the things that are sitting in the back of

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your mind.

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100% and I fell into that, you know, as far as at work to absolutely 100% is if I hurl

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myself into hours and take as many as I can, and I just stay inside this bubble, I don't

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have to deal with anything else.

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And I found in my own direct experience, it didn't work.

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It was maladaptive, just like, you know, I'm in recovery from booze and drugs.

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I've been sober since 1992.

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And you know, and I've seen addiction manifest in other ways in my life too.

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And addiction is a maladaptive way to try to deal with, you know, complicated emotions

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or loss or grief, and it doesn't work.

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What I found in my own direct experience in my own life over the last five years and earlier,

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you mentioned COVID, like COVID was a reset for me in a way, because prior to it, I started

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to get into, you know, get into Buddhism and in Dharma.

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And that kind of, in all throughout COVID, I got way more and more into it because it

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was informing me or advising me or inviting me to see that wellness and recovery is an

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inside job.

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It's not external, like chasing sense pleasures to deal with afflictive emotions or grief

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or the stress of the job.

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It doesn't work.

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And I found that meditation, mindfulness is a very, very good way to kind of slow down,

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take a breath, observe and pause.

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And this is good for the job.

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It's good off the job.

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And you can learn to skillfully respond as opposed to knee jerk reactions and lose your

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mind or get angry.

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I had a guy on Jim Poole probably just over a year ago now.

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I was introduced to a thing called NUCALM.

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And it used to be the real backstory.

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There was an incredibly intelligent American neuroscientist, I think he was, and he spent

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I think 15 plus years trying to figure out the frequency of the brain at the different

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emotional states.

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Then he spent another 10 years figuring out, can you make the brain go into those states?

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Can you influence it?

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And what he came up with was this machine and you put on a face mask and headphones

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and you sit there and you're listening to music, but underneath is this kind of undulation

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of all these kind of frequencies.

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And because smartphones, again, saying the good things of technology, because they've

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become so incredible now, now it's an app, same exact thing.

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So you put the headphones that you got on now and an eye mask and there's one called

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PowerNap, which is 20 minutes and then there's Recovery, sorry, Rescue, which is 20 minutes

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away through to like 100.

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And it down regulates the nervous system.

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It is amazing.

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And that along with meditation, I find has worked so well.

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And if you want to punctuate between a shift and going home, you just go back to the bunk

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room for 20 minutes, throw that on or in your car in the parking lot.

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And you feel like you had a couple hours sleep and it just takes you from that kind of hyper

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vigilant down to kind of us are in a pseudo flow state.

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That is something that a lot of people haven't heard of, but truly, truly amazing.

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And it's not just something like a Spotify playlist.

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This is like a one gig file per track or per session that you do.

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So the things you don't hear that are really doing the magic, it's absolutely phenomenal.

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But again, it's the same thing.

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It's down regulate and it's working on the inside, as you said, not the outside.

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Yeah, and I'm finding, you know, relative to meditation that there's more receptivity

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and open mindedness in the fire service with the younger members than say, for instance,

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the older members of the job.

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And I think when you explain or reflect on, you know, meditation isn't like it's not

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siege mentality, it isn't like picking Buddhism over Catholicism or you're not walking away

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from your faith or anything like that.

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It's a philosophy.

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It's something you can use to, like you say, like, you know, bring that hyper vigilance

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down.

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Like in mindfulness, based stress reduction can bring stress down and, you know, as far

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as anxiety or depression and things of the like, you know, mindfulness or meditation

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can can bring you back to where your feet are at.

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And you can use mantras or words in seated meditation or walking meditation.

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For example, walking meditation is something that's a skillful means like if you're doing,

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you know, housework around the firehouse cleaning up or anything, you could, you know, when

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you put your left foot down, you could be like here and then your right foot now.

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So if your mind's like trying to run all over the place or proliferate, you can always just

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bring it back to the moment.

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And a lot of, you know, firefighters that I've spoken with about this have found, you

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know, direct experience benefit from using it.

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I think a lot of us now in this day and age conceptually hear about it and that it can

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change neural pathways and you can find some ease and calm and things of the like or be

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with the light that's here, like pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, whatever's going on.

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It's another thing when you invite people to use it and then they use it and then they

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find benefits.

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So, you know, in my job as a counselor, like offering that up, there's more receptivity

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and it feels like it's, you know, as with everything changing.

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I feel like more people are open to it.

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100%.

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Yeah, I like Headspace, that app as well, because you're getting a pseudo guided, but

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the more you do it, the less he talks, you know, you get more and more used to being

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quiet.

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But I think this is the commonality and I personally like the philosophy of, you know,

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just taking the kind of common denominators of all the faiths and taking that as my personal

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doctrine.

305
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,800
And if you look at pretty much all the faiths, there's a form of prayer, which is arguably

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meditation.

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Now, sometimes it's become asking for more money or it's kind of a little distorted,

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but I think ultimately it was just, you know, quietening your mind when no matter what the

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faith was, I think that was the underlying reason for prayer.

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Yeah, I mean, I agree with that 100% because, you know, not that I'm a religious majors

311
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study or, you know, bachelor's of science or PhD in any of it, just in my own direct

312
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experience working at Buddhism or Hinduism or Catholicism, Stoicism, Taoism, Taoism,

313
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there's so much interconnectivity and similarity in living skillfully, quieting the mind, concentrating

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on mantras, concentrating on your breathing and body scan and feeling tones and being

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the witness to thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations as they arise and cease and realizing

316
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that a feeling isn't a fact and a thought isn't a commandment that everything's transient

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and it comes and it goes.

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So I think when you invite people to try meditation and you kind of indicate to them that there

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isn't a right or wrong way to do it, what you're doing is just like watching what's

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going on and learning to turn toward anything that's going on, pleasant, unpleasant or

321
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neutral and kind of being taken that witness position.

322
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And I've found that people that have receptivity and are trying it are gaining some benefit

323
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from it.

324
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And it's really counter-institutional for a lot of members on our job when I first unpacked

325
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,800
that and say, you know, there's no right or wrong way to do it.

326
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You just do it and like let go.

327
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Because of our conditioning and upbringing, there's a right way and a wrong way to do

328
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something.

329
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,760
Yeah, and an immediate result.

330
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Yeah.

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So that can be a stumbling block at first, but when people try and they have receptivity

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and they kind of soften and let go of it, they can kind of just find some ease and some

333
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:58,840
calm and try to, you know, like I said earlier, I love the act.

334
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,440
I like to, I love the, that's like that acronym, stop, like slow down, take a breath, observe

335
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and pause.

336
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:11,360
That's something that I feel like when I had been invited to do that, that was super, super

337
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:13,680
helpful for me.

338
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,960
Going back to the school age again, what about music?

339
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What was the kind of power of that in your life and were you playing any instruments

340
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,160
or kind of wanting to sing at that point?

341
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,360
I think when I was in eighth grade, I heard the Clash, the first album by the Clash.

342
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I heard the first song Clash City Rockers.

343
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And in that moment, I knew that Michael Jackson and Prince and all the things that I'd been

344
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listening to, although very good, it was over.

345
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:51,780
I just intuitively felt like, okay, there's meat on the bone here.

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This band, it just struck a nerve and resonated with me.

347
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And then I was, I was sort of like, from that moment on, I started looking at liner notes

348
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,820
and lyrics and like I got geeky about it.

349
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:11,880
Like I, I just couldn't have a record in this, been it, it'd be casual.

350
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:18,380
I wanted to know where it was made, who the producers, you know, what the lyrics meant.

351
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:24,440
And of course, you know, when you read lyrics and you hear music, in my own direct experience,

352
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,720
it's always been, okay, like I assign a meaning to it.

353
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:36,320
And with the Clash, you know, that first album, the green album made me go get Give Him Enough

354
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Rope and you know, their finest album, London Collins Sandinista, Combat Rock.

355
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:52,120
And you know, from there it was the jam, the Sex Pistols, even like, like, even like Stiffle

356
00:29:52,120 --> 00:30:02,600
the Fingers and it just, I, some, even U2, early U2 was, you know, more like punkish

357
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,240
and rabble rousin and more rebel music.

358
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:14,000
And one thing too that I found was some of the Irish music I'd been listening to and

359
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:22,200
you know, my uncle's or aunt's kitchen in Saban Hill, there was interconnectivity with

360
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,160
punk rock and even like a band like The Pokes.

361
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:33,280
And I just got really into music and I started writing band names on my school books.

362
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:41,520
And you know, I would take, you know, I'd put covers over my books and you know, Clash,

363
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:47,760
you know, Stiffle the Fingers, like Sex Pistols and I dreamt I'm like, I'd love to be able

364
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:55,920
to be like these guys and say something that was substantive and not all lovey dovey.

365
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:05,200
And fortunately, because of recovery, I got to make some music and to, you know, open

366
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:12,440
my heart and open my mind and just pour out what my direct experience in life, you know,

367
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,600
kind of informed me to write about or sing about.

368
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:21,320
And I'm extremely, extremely fortunate to like have been in Dropkick Murphys to make

369
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,160
the boys on the Doc EP to do a Di album and then with Street Dogs, you know, getting to

370
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,880
make like six studio albums, you know, super, super grateful.

371
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,040
Like I don't think it's a right, I kind of consider it a privilege.

372
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:43,600
So that was that the Clash was the formative thing that was that changed the whole game.

373
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,280
I was a big Michael Jackson fan when I was younger too.

374
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,600
But now when I look back, I don't remember the Clash grooming children at the Neverland

375
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,520
Ranch, so you probably chose the right path.

376
00:31:52,520 --> 00:32:00,040
Well, when you talked about sobriety, if I did my math right, you were 22 when you began

377
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,400
that journey.

378
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,360
When you look back now, talk to me about the kind of struggles that you had when you were

379
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,600
younger and what sent you into addiction.

380
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,720
Because I think this is a big part of the first responder mental health story that we

381
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,400
miss is what happened to us before we put the uniform on our formative years.

382
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,520
Yeah, so, you know, I started drinking at a really young age and it's like absolutely

383
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,480
absurd when I reflect on it, like when I was 12 years old.

384
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:34,400
And I became a weekend warrior pretty, pretty quickly in junior high and then all throughout

385
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,460
high school.

386
00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:45,160
So before I graduated high school, like, you know, you know, now obviously looking to a

387
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:52,600
more soluble lens and having recovery, I can, it's my sense, you know, I was pretty mired

388
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,120
in alcoholism at that point.

389
00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:05,160
Then joined the military and it really took off because in the army, like I went to basic

390
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:13,920
training in AIT one station unit training and then in the AIT section of basic training

391
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,160
on weekends we got, you know, some liberty.

392
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,200
We could, you know, we could go to like the enlisted members club and then there was booze

393
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,880
there and I was like, I remember that first weekend liberty.

394
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,720
I was just like drinking obscene amounts of beer.

395
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:36,920
Like we got, I went into this enlisted members club at Fort Sill, Oklahoma called the case

396
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,160
I named after about in Vietnam.

397
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:46,080
And I paid $5 and I had an empty milk gallon and I could just fill it all night long off

398
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,000
the top.

399
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:55,520
And you know, it had been like eight weeks since I had drank and, you know, it just took

400
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:07,720
off and I remember blacking out that night and from that point on with drinking, you

401
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,800
know, blackouts were a part of my experience.

402
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,960
Particularly when I got to permanent duty station in Germany and, you know, Germany

403
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,760
had bars that didn't close at two in the morning.

404
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,160
It was around the clock.

405
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:31,000
So my drinking just really took off and hit another gear.

406
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:38,360
And it's miraculous that I didn't get booted out of the military.

407
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:44,600
Like my father, God rest his soul, used to say, God looks out for drunks and children.

408
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:53,800
And you know, I wound up getting out of the military with an honorable discharge.

409
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,460
And then I got back home.

410
00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:59,960
I had a job waiting for me at a newspaper in Boston.

411
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:03,800
And before I even entered the building, I was drinking a six pack.

412
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:10,440
And then when I was that first shift, I was drinking on the job and off the job.

413
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:17,480
So it was that led me up to, you know, I was mired in pretty heavy alcoholism.

414
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,360
And as far as drugs, if they were around, I wasn't saying no.

415
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,160
And you know, it just wasn't.

416
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:33,720
And you know, I think it was my father who was really pivotal because he was in recovery

417
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:37,640
and helping me get to recovery when I was 22.

418
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,600
And you know, yeah, it was July 30, 1992.

419
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,120
And I haven't found it necessary to pick up a drink of drugs since.

420
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,920
So I've been really fortunate in that respect.

421
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,520
When you look back, what do you think, well, what were the elements of your upbringing

422
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,760
that created this void that led to the binge drinking?

423
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:05,960
You know, I, you know, although my father was sober and he used to always beat that

424
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:11,520
drama, me and my brother, that, you know, there's alcoholism in our family and, you

425
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,960
know, he was, he warned us about it.

426
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,860
Oh, you know, everybody in my family was drinking.

427
00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:25,120
So if I went to holiday parties or it was, we were surrounded by it.

428
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,920
In my neighborhood growing up, my friends, they wanted to do it.

429
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,940
We wanted to be down the tracks.

430
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:34,980
We wanted to be down the beach.

431
00:36:34,980 --> 00:36:38,240
We wanted to be down by the bar of fires, the parks.

432
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:43,720
So I was immersed in it and it was around me.

433
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:49,120
Now I had this overwhelming preoccupation with what other people thought of me at that

434
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,180
time and it was almost, almost debilitating.

435
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:56,960
So if my friends were drinking, I'm drinking.

436
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,760
If my friends were wearing Nikes, I'm wearing Nikes.

437
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,720
If my friends, you know, are wearing a Ralph Lauren jacket, I'm wearing one.

438
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:16,920
So that's some of the things that kind of put me on that path to get, you know, mired

439
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:24,800
in drinking and then that's what led me, you know, eventually to recovery.

440
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,280
Talk to me about the Gulf War.

441
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,880
You deployed there, is that right, when you were in the army?

442
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:42,160
Yeah, so I can remember in 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait, I want to say it was August

443
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,280
2nd, 1990 if I recall correctly.

444
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:52,080
We were, I was in the 3rd Armored Division, 4th, the 82nd Field Artillery, Chauvy Battery

445
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,480
and we were in Grafenwehr-Hornfeld in Germany training.

446
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:09,720
So our first month was in Grafenwehr and when we got word that it happened, we were only

447
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,680
at the time schedule for 30 days and then we got additional orders, go to Hornfeld for

448
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,360
another 45 days.

449
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:22,360
So I guess in my mind I've sensed eventually we're going to wind up, we're going to wind

450
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,800
up going over there.

451
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:33,880
Fair enough, Desert Shield evolved, they sent, I think they sent the 82nd Airborne, they

452
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:43,000
sent the 24th Mech and it was December, it was, I think, actually around November we

453
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520
got word that we would be going too.

454
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:55,320
So 26 December 1990 we went to Saudi Arabia, Dahran and we waited for, like I was in artillery

455
00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,760
so we waited for M109 Alphaduses to come in.

456
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,080
You know when the air war kicked off, you know there was scuds going through the air

457
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,480
and everything and it was surreal.

458
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:15,200
I can remember being inside a hangar in Dahran, hearing things blow up overhead, being in

459
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,640
like MOP-4 and thinking I'm done.

460
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,600
Like one of those scuds are going to come right through that, top of that hangar and

461
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,080
I was going to be like, you know, a pile of dust.

462
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:40,040
But that didn't happen and eventually I got to go into the ground war which was February

463
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,400
of 91.

464
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:49,440
I think we were, I think it was, if I remember right we were just at it for about four days

465
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:57,240
and the enemy was really close to like Republican Guard elements or like, you know, 4,000 meters

466
00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:02,440
down range and we were just pulverizing them because the air war had already softened them

467
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:10,480
up significantly and, you know, they called a ceasefire and we were stunned because we

468
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:18,240
had been told hey, 14 days of combat, nuclear biological chemical environment, most of the

469
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:22,520
time you'll be in MOP-4, half of you are going to die.

470
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:28,880
They painted a pretty bleak picture but I understand why now because they wanted us

471
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:37,880
to be frosty and just supercharged up and squared away with how we do our job and load

472
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:48,880
rounds into the breach and all that made us like hyped up and it's, like reflecting on

473
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:55,160
it, it blows my mind because what we thought was going to happen and how it actually went

474
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:06,280
was significantly different and I mean I'm grateful for that obviously but it showed

475
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:18,200
me like the ferocity of combat and just grateful that obviously I made it out of there and

476
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:24,720
there's a part of me too like now being into Dharma and Buddhism and meditating that, you

477
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:37,080
know, I feel like violence and combat just kind of continues a cycle of violence and

478
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,920
confrontation and it doesn't really solve anything in the long term if ever.

479
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:49,680
No, I mean you look back, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and we had Catholics and Protestants

480
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:55,640
killing each other in Ireland and obviously you had the loyalists and Republicans, I don't

481
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,560
know if I'm labeling them right, but the pro and anti-UK and it's understandable.

482
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,880
You reverse engineer and you go back to the division of Ireland and the potato famine

483
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,760
and back and back and back and then you look at our involvement that created some of the

484
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:14,160
issues in Iraq and then you look at Afghanistan and it just keeps perpetuating and I think

485
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:21,160
what's sad is that more often than not an entire country is labeled like the entire

486
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,560
country of Russia must want to invade Ukraine and it's like no, I'm sure most of them just

487
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:31,520
want to get on with their lives and watch their kids grow up but until we have I think

488
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:38,280
a national awakening as a nation where these tyrants kind of poke their head up and we

489
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,440
just cut their head off straight away like nope, you're not going to be another Hitler,

490
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,200
it's going to keep happening over and over again but when we look back at history, I

491
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,960
mean the lessons are so glaring, they're so obvious and yet we seem to just allow them

492
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,360
to perpetuate over and over again.

493
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:04,800
Yeah, I mean again I'm not here to convert anybody to Buddhism or Dharma but I think

494
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:11,480
what I've learned in my brief time doing it about five years now that it was reflected

495
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:18,800
on in Pali Canon by the Buddha that the world is consumed with greed, hatred and delusion

496
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:30,600
and that repetitive clinging and craving for pleasant sensations or wealth or materialism

497
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,560
is the root of all suffering.

498
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:46,920
And I feel like it's the only philosophy that I feel like there's truth in it and in my

499
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:54,920
own direct experience, lived experience in life, like you, kind of a monon, like that

500
00:43:54,920 --> 00:44:08,080
repetitive combat and fighting and it just doesn't really get us anywhere, it just sets

501
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:14,880
the table for more fighting and more problematic occurrences and I think that's why I really

502
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:22,360
found like a refuge in Buddhism to kind of live skillfully and more mindfully and just

503
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,080
try to pay forward what I can in life and do the good in front of me.

504
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,280
Absolutely.

505
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:33,440
So you talk about Iraq, one of the places I know that people struggle is the transition

506
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,800
from one of our professions away from that tribe.

507
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,240
So obviously you've got that titanic tribe that you've forged in the US Army, you fight

508
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,200
together side by side.

509
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,880
Talk to me about the transition out of the military and then was that jarring for you

510
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,720
or did you find another tribe in the fire service pretty quickly?

511
00:44:52,720 --> 00:45:01,560
Yeah, there was some difficulty like coming back home for sure, ETSing out and then like

512
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,320
really having a bad boost problem.

513
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,520
I can remember low crawling in blackouts in my kitchen.

514
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:19,480
I can remember having dreams about Scud's impact in base camp, all sorts of stuff.

515
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:27,600
So there was definitely difficulty like coming back home and there was a big reluctance to

516
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:38,880
speak to that because I was in the military and even like on my block it was like, you

517
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,160
know, you don't talk about shit.

518
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,160
You know what I mean?

519
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,520
You just keep a stiff upper lip, just keep moving at all costs and we don't talk about

520
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,000
feelings around here.

521
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,200
So that was still in play back then.

522
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:02,560
And I think when I got to recovery I softened a lot and I started to have more receptivity

523
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,560
to different ideas and increased my internal bandwidth.

524
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:16,440
And when I did eventually get onto the fire service, drill school was very, the feeling

525
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:25,760
of drill school and that coach knit, all of us, you know, firefighters on probation, PTing,

526
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:36,280
you know, having cadre again to teach us evolutions and fire suppressions, hazmat, EMS, that felt

527
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,280
like home again.

528
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,660
It felt very, very similar to being a boot camp again.

529
00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:48,640
So yeah, I mean, I landed in a place that was familiar.

530
00:46:48,640 --> 00:47:02,400
And I think in the fire service, you know, there is a, it is like a family and it extends

531
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:12,600
worldwide and we all get each other.

532
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,960
And I'm just, I'm really grateful to be a part of it.

533
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,840
And I seen it extend beyond being a firefighter.

534
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:29,840
When I got involved with Dropkick Murphy's and the street dogs and went touring, like

535
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,680
people from the job were coming out with unicorns and things like that.

536
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,760
And, you know, although I had like gone on a leave of absence from the job, it didn't

537
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,400
feel like I was that far away.

538
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,800
What were the tools that work for you to become sober when so many people struggle and fall

539
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,120
off the wagon multiple times?

540
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:56,800
I think the thing that, you know, alcoholics and honorists where I went talked about was

541
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,080
to kind of get in touch with a higher power.

542
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:09,000
And you know, even though I practice the philosophy of Dharma and Buddhism and meditate and walk

543
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,520
that path, I feel like I still believe in the higher power of my youth to Jesus Christ.

544
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:21,960
And I read it really, I read it, that was, you know, and it was, it was, you know, at

545
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:29,680
first it was a heavy amount of skepticism when they said, you know, you know, pray for

546
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,880
yourself, pray for them.

547
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:37,320
Like I was just like, I just didn't believe it.

548
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,640
I was extremely angry.

549
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,280
But I tried it because I was desperate and it worked.

550
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:54,640
So I think it's that spiritual connection that enabled me to stay sober and then attendance

551
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:55,640
at meetings.

552
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:01,520
Like I think the one thing I've done right in alcoholics and honorists is not pick up

553
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,920
a drink and never stop going to meetings.

554
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:11,200
I found that a lot of people that I knew that got away from meetings, they wanted to pick

555
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,760
it up and sometimes they didn't come back and unfortunately some of them, you know,

556
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,840
passed away.

557
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:25,080
So I think the thing that enabled me to stay was to kind of try to do the good in front

558
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,760
of me and keep it in the day like A.A. talks about.

559
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:35,280
And then I mean later on down the line, you know, when I seen addiction manifest and otherwise,

560
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:40,960
I got involved in refuge recovery and I got and that all happened.

561
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:47,240
I got involved in Buddhism and Dharma and then found the meditation piece.

562
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:55,600
And that really helps me with everything because I feel like every moment thought, mood, sensation

563
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:01,160
and everything is all part of just for the milf of Dharma, you know.

564
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Absolutely.

565
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:08,800
Yeah, we were talking before I hit record, I interviewed a guy who is he was a very successful

566
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:15,880
businessman in the UK and he's got a thing called one year no beer.

567
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,440
He himself found sobriety and he was just trying to change the way it was going to be

568
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:20,440
a message to people.

569
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,360
And it was more about changing a relationship with alcohol rather than saying I'm never

570
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,400
going to drink again.

571
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,180
And just talking to him, something tripped in my mind and I was never a binge drinker,

572
00:50:30,180 --> 00:50:33,760
but I was a frequent drinker, you know, two or three in the evening to I'm doing air quotes

573
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:39,320
now, wind down, knowing damn well that it upsets your sleep, not the opposite.

574
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,880
And yeah, two and a half months and it's just that that change.

575
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,760
But what I've done is I've put in more exercise, you know, more I've started meditating, doing

576
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:53,920
the headspace more diligently using new calm and just taking away that underlying kind

577
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,400
of anxiety or whatever that thing was.

578
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:02,640
And I found that the non alcoholic beers now every so often if I have a, you know, a taste

579
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:08,040
for IPA, I'll have a zero, you know, percent alcohol IPA and it's like, oh, I just wanted

580
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,040
the drink.

581
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:10,160
I didn't want the alcohol.

582
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:15,560
So for me, you know, some people it's like you said, the cultural habitual thing, that's

583
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,760
a very, very strong element to some are literally drinking to sleep, to forget, to feel, you

584
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,480
know, and that's the more extreme.

585
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,600
But a lot of us are, you know, the more social drinkers, you still still damaging your body,

586
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:28,600
poisoning your body.

587
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:36,840
So replacing that with an actual healthy way to down regulate has been amazing for me.

588
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:43,320
Yeah, that's that seems like a more skillful means to to bring it headspace app on board

589
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,600
and in meditation.

590
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:54,800
And I found what I found with meditation in my own direct experience that all the feelings

591
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,280
I have thoughts, moods, sensations, emotions are impermanent.

592
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:06,640
And if I can say yes to the life that's here, pleasant, unpleasant, a neutral and realize

593
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:14,040
that this too shall pass and and breathe and use mantras like here, now let go.

594
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:26,080
And I found that that's a way to kind of to to to de escalate a discursive mind or or

595
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:32,440
cultivate some ease and some calm and some and some regulation.

596
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:39,040
So I really feel like, you know, again, like meditation is a skillful means.

597
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:48,720
And I've like you, I think, well, I would say more appropriately, like I think that

598
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:56,880
you've heard about it being able to change neural pathways and and and to make people

599
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,240
respond more skillfully as opposed to reacting.

600
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:08,120
And that helps a lot on the job as a firefighter when you do very, very stressful things.

601
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,760
For example, has Matt's fires.

602
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:18,760
And I've dealt with some people that have had difficulties, you know, where, you know,

603
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:25,320
you go in into cardiac arrest situations or, you know, kids in medicals and people have

604
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:33,720
been able to kind of just breathe and be in the moment and then have, you know, some compassion

605
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:35,920
for the people they're dealing with.

606
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:47,440
And because I think one of the things that happens with the fire service is it becomes

607
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,040
like it's not a big deal for us to go into those situations.

608
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,880
It's to us, it's just another day at work.

609
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,840
But you know, to the people that are going through it, it's the worst day of their entire

610
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,400
lives.

611
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:06,800
So I don't know, I feel like keeping that in mind, it has been something that's that

612
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,800
has been a benefit to me and trying to kind of pay that forward to other people too.

613
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,480
Yeah, I used to use box breathing a lot when we were going to the bigger calls.

614
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,600
And then even this funny even I remember one time I was handed a limp baby like right when

615
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:26,320
we pulled up to the curb and, you know, kind of getting in that stress state and it was

616
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,040
taking a few breaths and remembering ABC is the most basic algorithm that we're taught

617
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,640
that you don't even think of twice as a medic normally.

618
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,920
But you know, someone blinds eyes you and all of a sudden that breathing and then just

619
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,080
back to the to the basic, basic things that you've taught.

620
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,600
Okay, airway breathing, here we go.

621
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,320
And then, you know, you try and save this little one up.

622
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,320
This is an abuse case.

623
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:48,680
So there was no saving it.

624
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,140
But yeah, but I mean, that it's not just about down regulation.

625
00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:53,140
It's also performance.

626
00:54:53,140 --> 00:54:57,040
You know, if you're breathing and getting into that pseudo flow state, you are going

627
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,280
to be more effective on a primary search or figuring out, you know, cardiac algorithms

628
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,280
on a on a PED.

629
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:11,360
Yeah, 100% like box breathing is I took this mindfulness based stress reduction course

630
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:17,120
through mindful leader and MBSR is something that John Kabat-Zinn came up with in the 70s

631
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,440
and it's derivative of Buddhism and mindfulness is derivative of Buddhism.

632
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:30,600
And the Buddha, you know, discovered it in Bodh Gaya 2600 years ago and box breathing

633
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,160
was something we were taught to.

634
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:44,040
And with like, like first responders getting rest or rehab or focusing in on on work like

635
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:49,600
and not letting anxiety overwhelm me if you go into a fire.

636
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:58,440
You're going into like a tough medical situation is super, super helpful because you can kind

637
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:06,320
of be where your feet are at and be more ready to respond with competency instead of letting

638
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:10,440
anxiety like, you know, get you out of sorts.

639
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,360
Well, this is what's funny as well.

640
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:17,040
I'd never thought of this really until I started the podcast and I was talking to, you know,

641
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,840
people about breath work and meditation and obviously fitness.

642
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,800
And then you realize we're one of the only professions on the planet where the only air

643
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,920
available to us is the tank on our back.

644
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:35,120
And so your cardiovascular fitness and your, you know, your, your mindfulness, basically

645
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:40,940
that the stress mitigation are both directly related to how many breaths you take and how

646
00:56:40,940 --> 00:56:42,420
long that tank lasts.

647
00:56:42,420 --> 00:56:46,000
But you go to fire Academy and I remember I'm teaching skip breathing.

648
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,960
I used to use that a lot, which is very helpful, but that's about it.

649
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,920
It's just one fleeting discussion on that's really, you know, making your tank last, but

650
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,640
you know, your fitness makes your tank last.

651
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,520
And then your mindset, you know, if you are not in a panic state and you're efficient

652
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,120
climbing those stairs and, you know, taking very deliberate breaths.

653
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,520
And when it comes to, you know, forcing a door and realizing there's a kid in there

654
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,680
somewhere now you've got, you know, that extra bit.

655
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:14,220
But as I have with one of my guests in the Grenfell fire in London, and I'm not saying

656
00:57:14,220 --> 00:57:18,520
that he wasn't fit or mitigating his air, but when it came to the fire floor, they only

657
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,680
had enough air to turn around and come back down again.

658
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,620
Now it was untenable at that point.

659
00:57:22,620 --> 00:57:26,920
So this, you know, based on his report, there was no chance anyone was alive anyway.

660
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:32,320
But you know, imagine if you were deconditioned and you were stressed and you made it to the

661
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,240
fire floor and you had to turn around because you were about to tap out and that child died.

662
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,400
You know, this is not just down regulation and our mental health.

663
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,800
This is also flow state and performance.

664
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:48,880
Yeah, it's relative to job performance.

665
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:58,920
And yeah, if you can control your breathing and be where your feet are at and be in the

666
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:09,000
moment and not be hijacked, not have the mind be hijacked by anxiety, you're in a much better

667
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:13,160
place to efficiently and exceptionally perform duties.

668
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:21,560
That mean with, you know, life safety on the fire ground, like pulling people out of buildings

669
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,520
or working people on the way out or out front.

670
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:36,680
You know, these, you know, box breathing, meditation, mindfulness based stress reduction,

671
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,920
these things are, you know, they'll help you off the job.

672
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:45,160
But more importantly, I feel like they'll help you like do the job skillfully.

673
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:46,160
100%.

674
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,000
Well, you mentioned the jam, the clash, sex pistols.

675
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,960
So you're thinking about, you know, you're relating with this music and you're analyzing

676
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:55,920
it as a young man.

677
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:01,080
Talk to me about dropkick Murphys and street dogs and how that kind of intermingled with

678
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,440
your fire service career.

679
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:11,560
So you know, I left the dropkick Murphys to get on the Boston Fire Department and I got

680
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:19,440
on and was on for about three years and a friend of mine, Jeff Erna, who is the original

681
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:24,720
drummer for the dropkick Murphys called me up and said, Rob Godotti, who is a friend

682
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:30,640
of ours, he's a friend of the guys in the Murphys too, has some songs and he keeps bringing

683
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:31,640
your name up.

684
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,360
So you want to come down and check them out?

685
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,720
I was like, sure, just casual about it, no big deal.

686
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,120
We stopped working on the songs.

687
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,440
We do a demo.

688
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:49,760
And you know, the band originally was, you know, Rob Godotti, Michelle Paulus on bass

689
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,040
and then Jeff on drums.

690
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,160
And then Michelle left the fold.

691
00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:04,640
And you know, I called up Johnny Rio to come on board and that infused a lot of life into

692
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,400
the street dogs.

693
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:15,120
And you know, us messing around like it being polka night or casual, you know, we did a

694
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:24,000
couple of shows and then this is like early 2000s when, you know, music could get onto

695
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:25,000
the internet.

696
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,520
And you know, I wasn't thinking about that at the time.

697
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:34,160
So the demo got onto the internet and all of a sudden we have record deals coming at

698
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:35,160
us.

699
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,560
And I was stunned.

700
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:44,360
I didn't expect that at all.

701
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:50,000
It was a difficult decision to like leave the fire service to pursue street dogs all

702
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,320
the time, but I think one of the things that I think recovery gave me confidence that if

703
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,240
I wanted to go back to the fire service, I could.

704
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,000
And I never wanted to, I don't think I ever wanted to be on a porch when I was older,

705
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,480
like would have, could have, should have.

706
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,640
That was my mindset.

707
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:13,920
And you know, Pursuit Street Dogs all the time and we did six studio albums and it was

708
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:14,920
amazing.

709
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:20,920
We traveled the world, you know, we connected with a lot of people and recently we just

710
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:26,920
did a sold out reunion show at the Middle East.

711
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:31,840
Last Thursday night we did, we were on the Punk and Drunk festival Saturday, like No

712
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,360
Effects is having their final farewell tour.

713
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:35,360
We played that.

714
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:47,800
And I was able to come back to the fire service in 2016 and I'm still a member and I feel

715
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:53,800
like with the band we can place Joe's hair in there.

716
01:01:53,800 --> 01:02:00,760
I'm really, really fortunate to be able to have been on the job and then do music and

717
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,080
still be on the job.

718
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:05,240
Yeah, a lot of that's attributable to recovery.

719
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:10,000
That's just my feeling of where I land with it.

720
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:16,040
What were the negative influences of, you know, what we would character, let's get

721
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,920
on with it again, let me try and spit this word out.

722
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:22,040
The caricature would be the rock and roll lifestyle.

723
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:27,920
So you have someone who's sober around, you know, I'm assuming some alcohol, drugs, depending

724
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:29,160
on the crowd situation.

725
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:34,160
You know, did you find yourself kind of being against the grain a little bit or were you

726
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:39,400
surrounded by other people that were also living a sober lifestyle and it was easier

727
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,000
than we think?

728
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:49,560
I think on the road, you know, I would go to meetings and in music, you either find

729
01:02:49,560 --> 01:03:02,480
people that are completely mired in booze and drugs or you.

730
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,400
You know, you'll find people that are sober.

731
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:11,200
So as it turned out, like I would always like gravitate toward people that were sober, be

732
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,240
it other bands or crew members and go to meetings.

733
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:20,200
So I always stayed connected, you know.

734
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,080
So I was fortunate in that respect.

735
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:31,400
Talk to me about doing something outside the fire service because as we learn more and

736
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,280
more about the struggles and we mentioned about the transition from the military, one

737
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:40,280
of the things that I see as a reoccurring theme is a lot of firefighters get to the end

738
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:44,160
of their career and they transition out and they're like, OK, well, I guess I'll just

739
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:45,760
go teach at a fire academy now.

740
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,040
You know, cops transition, they go do security.

741
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,280
You know, the military, a lot of times we go into the contracting.

742
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,180
So they view it as like, well, all I can do is firefighting.

743
01:03:54,180 --> 01:03:56,600
So I'm going to go teach firefighting.

744
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,040
The reality is, you know, you work as a team, you work under high stress, you're a problem

745
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:05,440
solver, there's all these great attributes and you're also a human being first.

746
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,720
So in your case, you are a firefighter and you are a musician.

747
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:13,760
You know, those two things can exist perfectly and there's times where you prioritize one

748
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,640
more than the other and, you know, it's dynamic.

749
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:23,280
But there's this kind of, you know, all I should be is a firefighter and I go to all

750
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:28,440
the conferences and I wear t-shirts all the time, you know, it becomes a complete identity,

751
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,000
which I think is very unhealthy.

752
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,920
There has to be a line where, you know, you're also a husband and a wife and, you know, all

753
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,200
the other things too, and there's a balance.

754
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,120
So you've kind of walked the walk in this.

755
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,040
You know, there was times where you're like, okay, the music at this moment is an opportunity.

756
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:42,040
I can't turn down.

757
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,400
I'd adore the fire service, but I'm going to step away for a bit.

758
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:46,760
Then I'll go back.

759
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,920
So talk to me about that entire philosophy because it's not often that you hear people

760
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:56,280
with, and I would say, you know, use the word courage, the courage to step away from profession

761
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,440
where it's frowned upon to step away from the profession.

762
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:06,520
So again, like recovery was a big part of having like the confidence, the self-esteem

763
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,640
to do that.

764
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:17,360
And you know, I was fortunate to be able to leave the fire service, do music, and then

765
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:19,000
come back to the fire service.

766
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:30,960
And I can, I like how you're framing this up because I don't want the job to be my 100%

767
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:31,960
identity.

768
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,720
I've never wanted that.

769
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:43,400
And you know, on weekends, I teach mindfulness at a peer recovery place on Saturday.

770
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:49,160
I teach it Sunday at a substance abuse use treatment center.

771
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:56,680
And intuitively, I already sense that when I'm, you know, eventually retire from the

772
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:05,960
job, I would move in that direction to kind of, you know, continue to do that type of

773
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:10,560
teaching or even maybe potentially be a therapist.

774
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:22,480
So I don't ever want to be like the person that made the job 100% of their identity and

775
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:23,840
all facets of their life.

776
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:30,840
Like I want to be able to turn it off and recovery helps me to be able to turn it off.

777
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,800
Meditation helps me to be able to turn it off.

778
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:35,800
Beautiful.

779
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,980
Well, I want to get to the communications and then we'll get to your role now.

780
01:06:39,980 --> 01:06:44,600
And just before we do, when you were actually on a rig responding to calls as a firefighter

781
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:50,900
specifically, when you look back, what were some of the career calls that you had?

782
01:06:50,900 --> 01:06:59,440
I think one thing that comes to mind immediately was the Six O'Lan fire in East Boston where

783
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:11,360
three buildings were fully engulfed and it was a long stand.

784
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:18,720
Like a lot of guys I went to drill school with were at that fire and we got pulled out

785
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:27,800
of the building before it started to kind of like floors and roofs and stuff like that

786
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:28,800
caved in.

787
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:34,680
It kind of felt like a close call on that one.

788
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:39,280
Another one is kind of comical.

789
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:47,280
I remember going to a medical in the Chinatown section of Boston and somebody had OD'd.

790
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:56,120
I was brand new at the time and they had a shop in their arm and everything and Boston

791
01:07:56,120 --> 01:08:05,520
AMS rolled in and hit them with a knock-in and they killed right up and they went to

792
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:10,040
battle with me and another guy from Engine 10.

793
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,960
And when we got back to the station, they were playing the Rocky music over the PAA

794
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:14,960
and everything.

795
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:21,480
I mean, there's so many different types of calls.

796
01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:28,440
I remember going to Engine 16, having been on Engine 10 for two years then going over

797
01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:39,480
to Engine 16 and my second day we had a fire and my lieutenant, I was on the pump operator

798
01:08:39,480 --> 01:08:42,920
at Engine Air.

799
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:48,000
Before he even got into the building, he had a two and a half inch line and he didn't go

800
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,000
over the radio.

801
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:53,680
He made eye contact with me and I opened it up.

802
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,760
I've had a two and a half inch charge line in the building and that is heavy.

803
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:04,880
He was a bull to get that thing up to the second floor.

804
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:10,760
To this day I don't know how he did it.

805
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,960
Yeah I think about stuff like that comes to mind.

806
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:24,440
I think about how today safety chiefs are smarter about when people should take off

807
01:09:24,440 --> 01:09:31,040
at CBA like during overhauling.

808
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:38,840
Things are way more mindful and considerate of health and welfare and occupational cancer

809
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,000
on the job.

810
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:46,480
I missed a huge fire at Edison plant in South Boston.

811
01:09:46,480 --> 01:09:55,440
I remember swapping off a tour and there was a huge night on fire there and there were

812
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:59,760
like PCBs in the building and a lot of people I know got sick and cancer.

813
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:06,840
Some had died from that fire.

814
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:14,760
I remember feeling like I should have been in there side by side with everybody in the

815
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,920
battle.

816
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:18,760
But now I think I have a different mindset.

817
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:23,680
I guess I was fortunate that it didn't wind up going in there because it's very likely

818
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:29,520
I might not be talking here right now.

819
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,880
I was talking to Sam, the union president a while ago who was on the show.

820
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:38,560
Sam Dillon is a great union president.

821
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:39,560
Yeah absolutely.

822
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:41,040
Great conversation.

823
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:44,940
But we were talking about this because I remember your department being one of the first ones

824
01:10:44,940 --> 01:10:49,720
when it came to cancer specifically and you're doing those beautiful documentaries on people

825
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,120
that were struggling, people that you lost.

826
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:56,520
And again this is another thing with the sleep deprivation side and the shifts is that's

827
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:57,960
also a carcinogen.

828
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:03,740
So we were talking about this like deconing the gear and putting time events over engines

829
01:11:03,740 --> 01:11:06,080
and not having your ice maker in the bay.

830
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,960
These are all completely pertinent but also the rest and recovery.

831
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:15,160
The body has the ability to fend off cancer if it's in homeostasis but if it's broken

832
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:22,080
down and the immune system is kind of working on fumes then that's where we're a lot more

833
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,080
likely to respond to these carcinogens as well.

834
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,680
So it's like this double pronged conversation we need to be having.

835
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:31,320
I agree.

836
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:40,160
I feel like Sam, even like the general president, Eddie Kelly have really amplified this issue

837
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:55,000
and have put forward things that would help the membership, the IAFF membership firefighters

838
01:11:55,000 --> 01:12:03,080
all over the US, particularly some of the bunker gear that has chemicals in it that

839
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:05,880
could be carcinogenic or cancerous.

840
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:11,760
So I'm glad our general president's beaten that drum.

841
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:16,000
I'm glad there's been changes but there still needs to be more changes and I'm confident

842
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,480
that stuff will eventually happen.

843
01:12:18,480 --> 01:12:20,400
Yeah, absolutely.

844
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,080
All right well then talk to me about communications.

845
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:29,120
That is a group of men and women that I think are the unsung heroes and I think that we

846
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:34,480
forget that when you and I respond to a call that say it's an extrication, we get off,

847
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:40,920
we pull power units, we're operating tools, the stress is offloaded by our physical exertion.

848
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:44,440
We're outside and all the things and then we can kind of talk about it as we're putting

849
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:46,880
all the gear away and cleaning stuff up.

850
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:50,600
You have someone who's on the end of the phone and I had an amazing conversation with Beth

851
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:55,080
Bauer Sox who was one of dispatches for the Paradise Fire in California, the wildfire

852
01:12:55,080 --> 01:13:00,480
that killed a huge amount of people and they're in a dispatch center.

853
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:01,480
They're sitting there.

854
01:13:01,480 --> 01:13:04,680
They've got no way of knowing what the conclusion was.

855
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:10,120
They've got no physical exertion so all that is just pent up there, arguably probably going

856
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:13,040
to work when it's dark, leaving when it's dark.

857
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:17,260
So there's all these factors that really aren't discussed when it comes to our dispatches.

858
01:13:17,260 --> 01:13:23,040
So coming from the field and operations, what was that kind of experience for you going

859
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,560
into the communication side?

860
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:37,400
So the first thing that comes to mind is working in fire alarm and dispatch and 911 as an 911

861
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:41,280
operator as well.

862
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:50,480
Fireballs, central station alarms, things that are just what happened with some frequency

863
01:13:50,480 --> 01:13:55,960
during the course of a ship.

864
01:13:55,960 --> 01:14:05,280
One in the morning comes and things have quieted down somewhat and then you get into this,

865
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:13,280
you get into this lull and then every terminal lights up at once.

866
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:18,280
And while you're on and while the other operators are on, you see more calls mounting.

867
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:25,280
You know it's coming and it's going to be a fire or it's going to be a tech rescue

868
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,700
of some sort.

869
01:14:29,700 --> 01:14:42,760
The amount of adrenaline and control chaos that goes on in that room during these incidents

870
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:48,800
and people yelling at each other to make sure we don't miss something.

871
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:53,640
After it all winds down, it's difficult to wind down.

872
01:14:53,640 --> 01:15:04,280
So a lot of food was a thing that we called the dispatcher spread.

873
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:17,800
I remember being in my first two years, I put on my 25 pounds because sweets, you'd

874
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:27,000
be so worked up still over being engaged in an incident like that, that you needed something.

875
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:31,160
So that was problematic.

876
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:40,000
I like how you framed it that dispatchers and 911 operators are kind of, I feel like

877
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,280
there have been times when it felt like it was an afterthought, but I feel like on our

878
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:49,720
job relative to the Boston Fire Department, that's kind of been amplified and brought

879
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,640
forward.

880
01:15:51,640 --> 01:16:06,000
We had the IAFFF has done a good job of bringing the peer support course to our membership,

881
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:14,800
be it communications or fire suppression, even like civilian employees.

882
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:21,600
I feel like people are more aware than they were in the past about the type of stress

883
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:26,840
that the dispatchers and 911 operators deal with.

884
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:33,920
Being an employee assistance program counselor and having been in there, I can help people

885
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:34,920
in there.

886
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:45,120
I feel like there's a willingness of people to speak or seek assistance.

887
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:53,240
Now that they know that someone who was in that room is on the peer support EAP side,

888
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:57,720
they know that I get it.

889
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:06,040
I feel like the difficulty of their position and some of the things they deal with or difficulties

890
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:15,240
they deal with, it's being looked at and when they need help, we jump right to it.

891
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:18,320
Talk to me then about the role you hold now.

892
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:19,320
What is it?

893
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,400
You've obviously got this lived experience, you've got multiple roles within the fire

894
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,140
service.

895
01:17:24,140 --> 01:17:32,400
What led you into the role and then what is the job description of your title specifically?

896
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:39,600
It was about three and a half years ago.

897
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:46,400
The boss at EAP at the time reached out to me and he knew I was in recovery for a long

898
01:17:46,400 --> 01:18:01,920
time and being in recovery, I'd helped people outside of the job getting into treatment

899
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:03,240
and things like that.

900
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:11,160
I think he felt like I would be an asset in being able to do that in our environment,

901
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:13,440
on the job.

902
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:21,200
I came down to the employee assistance program unit and immediately went into school to get

903
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:26,720
the certifications, all that stuff.

904
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:40,220
I feel like having been a firefighter before and been a dispatcher, I sat in a spot that

905
01:18:40,220 --> 01:18:47,160
I could help both divisions out.

906
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:51,760
I think I spoke to this somehow earlier in a way.

907
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:58,240
It seems to be more receptivity or willingness for members to come forward and seek help

908
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:08,400
where in the past, it was like, suck it up, drive on, don't say shit.

909
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:16,240
I feel like that is really becoming a thing, going the way of the dinosaurs in this day

910
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:17,240
and age.

911
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:21,880
I feel like more people are willing to reach out and seek help.

912
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:29,600
I think I'm glad to see that going away and people taking advantage of seeking help and

913
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:35,080
knowing that it's confidential and knowing that it won't be held against them on the

914
01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:36,080
job.

915
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:40,520
Talk to me about the resources available.

916
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:45,800
When I hear EAP, more often than not on this show with all the hundreds of stories I've

917
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:50,600
heard now, EAP is actually a negative.

918
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,240
They've mustered this courage to finally ask for help.

919
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:57,080
They're given a piece of paper with 10 phone numbers on.

920
01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:01,800
They call, three of them are out of service, another two can't see them for six months.

921
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:03,360
One of them is a child psychologist.

922
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:08,640
They sit in front of another one who then bursts into tears and says they can't help

923
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:09,680
them and they leave.

924
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:13,880
This is obviously the worst case, which I've heard numerous, numerous times.

925
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:20,140
Obviously, they're a way of getting a list of culturally competent clinicians, ideally

926
01:20:20,140 --> 01:20:26,040
even without the barrier of money if people are actually employing their own clinicians.

927
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:30,320
I think that's the problem is that we've been talking about, oh, let's remove the stigma,

928
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:35,760
but we haven't addressed how do we get from person struggling to person healthy with this

929
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,140
increasingly immense toolbox that's actually available.

930
01:20:40,140 --> 01:20:42,840
What is the model that you use in Boston?

931
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:47,360
I think our leadership is pretty progressive.

932
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:52,640
My boss has a really progressive vision with this.

933
01:20:52,640 --> 01:21:02,760
Having the firehouses, speaking with members, putting stuff out over department mail, having

934
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:17,160
Zoom groups, sort of like engaging the community before things get problematic.

935
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:27,520
I think one of the things we try to invite the members to ponder or consider is it's

936
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:36,320
far better to come to us and get the help that's available.

937
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:43,600
Like you had mentioned, Toolbox, you had mentioned, we have a vast network of resources at our

938
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:44,600
disposal.

939
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,000
We're very, very fortunate.

940
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:57,040
It's much better to come to us than be on the floor with the command staff and be in

941
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:01,360
a gym.

942
01:22:01,360 --> 01:22:11,560
I think we're kind of in a unique position where we're not aligned with the command staff

943
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,880
or the union.

944
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:21,680
We are union members, obviously, but we have to maintain confidentiality and some distance

945
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:26,840
from both so when people do come forward, they don't feel like it's going to get back

946
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:32,360
to one or the other.

947
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:39,280
I think there's a right now, and this has just been my direct experience, there's more

948
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:48,200
faith in the EAP probably than I've seen in my career being on the job.

949
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:54,640
I think what we're trying to do is stay engaged with the membership through classes, Zoom

950
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,480
classes.

951
01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:12,400
For example, some of our members have children who are on the spectrum of autism, neurodivergency,

952
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:21,160
and we offer Zoom classes to them for people to communicate and find resources so people

953
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,960
can form community and help each other.

954
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:31,160
And we've set up mindfulness meditation Zoom classes too.

955
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:37,600
So when we're communicating through, whether it's setting up mindfulness stuff, setting

956
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:44,560
up stuff for families who are dealing with neurodivergency or autism, children on the

957
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:57,200
spectrum, people working with each other, setting up, working with outside, there's

958
01:23:57,200 --> 01:24:01,600
a really good struggle well.

959
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:03,000
I don't know if you've heard of struggle well.

960
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,960
Many times, yeah, from both of us.

961
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:14,480
So we offer our members struggle well so that they can speak to other members about wellness,

962
01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:18,200
about fitness.

963
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:24,240
And so when we're doing all this stuff and we're engaged in our community, when stuff

964
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:30,200
gets problematic or they need to reach out to us, they've already connected with us.

965
01:24:30,200 --> 01:24:36,640
It's like we're not isolated in some office and they've never spoken to us at all.

966
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:39,520
They see us, they know we're engaged.

967
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:44,400
We're going into the firehouses reminding people, hey, we're here, dropping our paperwork

968
01:24:44,400 --> 01:24:47,160
dropping off resources.

969
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,960
They don't necessarily have to go through us either.

970
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:54,800
If they want to do resources on their own, that's all well good as long as they get to

971
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:55,800
help.

972
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:56,800
What about financially?

973
01:24:56,800 --> 01:25:01,440
Because again, a lot of people that they're looking for these counselors, they don't take

974
01:25:01,440 --> 01:25:02,440
insurance.

975
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:05,640
Some of them are $150, $200 a session.

976
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:08,880
And so now money becomes an issue as well, another barrier to entry.

977
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:13,400
Have you been able to bring people in network or kind of reduce that barrier so people can

978
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:15,920
actually get the help that they need?

979
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:20,000
So glad you brought this up.

980
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:30,400
Our members typically have good insurance to be able to get plugged into these resources.

981
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:36,480
However, their family members will work with them and some of them don't.

982
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:49,000
So that's when we have to get people enrolled in Mass Health, which is a health care service

983
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:53,440
used by the state of Massachusetts and there's different tiers.

984
01:25:53,440 --> 01:26:02,440
Some substance abuse treatment centers, mental health places, fortunately, occasionally

985
01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:07,880
we'll scholarship people in.

986
01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:17,200
So we have ways of getting our community into the resources like the fire service, like

987
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:21,800
to all departments, like they have the good, they typically have the insurance to be able

988
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:22,800
to get plugged in.

989
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:28,280
But the family members, we get some difficulty with that and we find ways to work through

990
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:31,920
it and get them resources.

991
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:40,760
And what also happens is people outside the fire service will use us too because it's

992
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:47,640
their way of thinking that they're the fire department once they call, you know, people

993
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:50,440
are going to like want to help them.

994
01:26:50,440 --> 01:26:52,720
And there's truth in that.

995
01:26:52,720 --> 01:27:03,520
So our way of thinking is help anyone we can and try to mitigate any difficulty with, you

996
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,440
know, getting people access to treatment.

997
01:27:06,440 --> 01:27:13,160
There's a really good foundation in Boston, the Gavin Foundation, and they have substance

998
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:17,000
abuse treatment centers and sober houses.

999
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:25,040
And we work with them to help people that might not have the financial will with all

1000
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:26,040
to get treatment.

1001
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:29,680
And they've been very good about helping people out.

1002
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:34,800
I think this is another topic that we really need to take a step back and think about.

1003
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:41,040
You have, of course, some people that slip through the net, they come through already

1004
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,600
with a lot of problems.

1005
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:45,760
You ask, how was that person when they were in probation?

1006
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:47,080
Oh, they were they were an asshole.

1007
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:48,360
Okay, that's that's a problem, child.

1008
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:50,280
But I'm not talking about that.

1009
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:55,760
The number of people that 10, 15, 20 years into their career now, you know, there's behavior

1010
01:27:55,760 --> 01:28:00,240
problems, there's anger problems, there's drinking, there's, you know, whatever it is.

1011
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:05,960
And they're terminated rather than going, well, how was this person five, 10, 15 years

1012
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:06,960
ago?

1013
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:09,160
Oh, God, they were one of the best firefighters that we ever had.

1014
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:11,120
Well, then where's the compassion?

1015
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,260
Clearly it is the job that's contributing to this downward spiral.

1016
01:28:15,260 --> 01:28:19,520
We owe it to that person to put them into, like you said, addiction counseling.

1017
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:21,280
And, you know, of course, take them off the rig.

1018
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:25,920
They can't be on if they're having these issues, but give them the time the same way as if

1019
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,540
they broke their femur, you know, to get to get back on track.

1020
01:28:29,540 --> 01:28:34,160
But I find that, you know, that's still behind the the eight ball when it comes to a lot

1021
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:37,920
of these conversations, and they're still firing at DUIs and all these things rather

1022
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:40,840
than going, okay, you know, what is the underlying problem here?

1023
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:41,840
What are we missing?

1024
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,200
And I think that person wasn't always like this, and it's happened during that time in

1025
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:47,600
our department.

1026
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:54,900
Relative to the Boston Fire Department, the command staff and the job historically, since

1027
01:28:54,900 --> 01:29:06,440
the inception of EAP around 1982, I feel like they've always held a lot of space for getting

1028
01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:12,000
people the help they need.

1029
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:27,200
And now, particularly now, there's a desire to however we can help this person, we should.

1030
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:33,080
And that's not to say that there haven't been contentious cases of people being terminated

1031
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:35,680
and stuff like that in the past.

1032
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:40,120
I'm not trying to say that, of course, things like that have happened.

1033
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:48,080
But moreover, like, for the most part, it's been my direct experience that that on our

1034
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:58,200
job, when we get the people the help they need, and that's been the culture.

1035
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:08,960
And I feel like that our department was, along with Chicago, was pretty much the beginning

1036
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:13,840
of EAP's on-fight departments in the US.

1037
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:30,440
So as time's gone on, there's been more and more open-mindedness and compassion.

1038
01:30:30,440 --> 01:30:37,120
That's a very, very skillful word to use to speak to it.

1039
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:44,440
Because this job, as you know, there's a lot of stress and difficulty with it.

1040
01:30:44,440 --> 01:30:51,360
And people use maladaptive ways to deal with that.

1041
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:55,800
And when that happens, if we can get them plugged into the resources that can show them

1042
01:30:55,800 --> 01:31:03,640
that there's skillful ways to deal with the stress of this job, then they'll be better

1043
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:05,440
off moving forward.

1044
01:31:05,440 --> 01:31:06,440
100%.

1045
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:08,160
And I've said this a lot recently.

1046
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:13,080
I think what we need to do is put the hope into the mental health conversation that when

1047
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:18,680
you have gone through, just like you in this conversation, the other side of your sobriety,

1048
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:24,800
now who you are, teaching meditation and mindfulness and ahead of the EAP program, and that came

1049
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:25,960
from your struggles.

1050
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:32,120
So that post-traumatic growth, that resilience that is forged by working through that trauma,

1051
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:33,720
needs to be the messaging.

1052
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:38,540
That if you just terminate someone, then you're missing an opportunity to get that person

1053
01:31:38,540 --> 01:31:41,360
not back on their feet, but even stronger.

1054
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:46,080
And so many people that have come on here that have got to that point, then they become

1055
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:47,840
a beacon of light for others.

1056
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:51,440
And others come out the shadows saying, I was hurrying.

1057
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:52,440
How did you do this?

1058
01:31:52,440 --> 01:31:53,440
I've been going through this.

1059
01:31:53,440 --> 01:31:54,680
I can't get myself out.

1060
01:31:54,680 --> 01:32:01,220
And then that not only helps that person now that's come to them, but it's a kind of self-licking

1061
01:32:01,220 --> 01:32:06,680
ice cream as it were, because that ability to help others is healing for the individual

1062
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:09,880
that's going through their own recovery journey as well.

1063
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:10,880
Yeah.

1064
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:15,460
Just point of clarification.

1065
01:32:15,460 --> 01:32:17,240
I'm a member of the EAP.

1066
01:32:17,240 --> 01:32:20,400
My boss is Brian Neat.

1067
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:35,320
And I agree with you that when people get vulnerable or amplify recovering or behavioral

1068
01:32:35,320 --> 01:32:41,120
health or wellness, there's a strength in vulnerability.

1069
01:32:41,120 --> 01:32:50,320
And instead of excoriating or vilifying people when they've had problematic behavior, it's

1070
01:32:50,320 --> 01:33:00,400
more skillful to have a compassionate lean on it and try to get people help.

1071
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:04,880
If you look at the fire service, the whole idea is predicated on helping people.

1072
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:08,240
So why not help our own people?

1073
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:09,240
100%.

1074
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:13,120
Well, I want to be mindful of your time.

1075
01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:15,880
I've got some closing questions if you've got time for those.

1076
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:16,880
I do.

1077
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:17,880
Brilliant.

1078
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:22,480
The next one I'd love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend?

1079
01:33:22,480 --> 01:33:27,120
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1080
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:42,440
So I feel like one of the greatest books I've ever read, and it's from Tara Brock, Radical

1081
01:33:42,440 --> 01:33:49,360
Acceptance is a wonderful book, and that's just a brief synopsis on that.

1082
01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:54,680
It's about saying yes to the life that's here, pleasant, unpleasant, and no swirling.

1083
01:33:54,680 --> 01:34:01,640
Just having, accepting that we're feeling beings and that moods, thoughts, sensations,

1084
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:02,960
and things are always changing.

1085
01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:07,520
And I feel like flow has been mentioned a couple of times in our conversation.

1086
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:14,400
When we flow with experience instead of contesting it, I feel like it's more skillful and Tara

1087
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:20,960
Brock does a really good job of eliminating that and explaining it, not in an esoteric

1088
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:27,160
way, but just in a really basic, straightforward way.

1089
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:28,160
Beautiful.

1090
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:31,440
What about films and or documentaries?

1091
01:34:31,440 --> 01:34:35,840
Wow, films and documentaries.

1092
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:46,560
I really feel like the documentary about Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, is

1093
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:47,560
really, really good.

1094
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:54,400
I believe that's on Amazon Prime.

1095
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:56,080
That's something that comes to mind right away.

1096
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:57,080
Yeah, I watched that too.

1097
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:58,080
It was amazing.

1098
01:34:58,080 --> 01:34:59,080
Yeah, it's good.

1099
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:00,080
All right.

1100
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:04,320
Well, the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1101
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:09,080
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associate professions of the

1102
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:10,080
world?

1103
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:11,080
Yeah, knock on no one.

1104
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:12,080
I got to get him back on.

1105
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:16,080
We actually talked about it, but he likes doing it in person, so I got to get him back

1106
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:17,080
on.

1107
01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:18,080
Oh, he's already been on?

1108
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:19,080
Yeah, yeah.

1109
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:20,080
I had him on.

1110
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:23,000
It's been God, I think about three years now, something like that, but he came to the house.

1111
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:25,200
It was awesome, but I need to get him back on.

1112
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:27,080
There's so much more to discuss.

1113
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:28,800
Well, he retired.

1114
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:29,800
Yeah.

1115
01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:30,800
So he'll be a lot more.

1116
01:35:30,800 --> 01:35:35,360
I think he's gone back in, is he or is he retired again now?

1117
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:39,280
I think he went into law enforcement, but maybe he stopped that for the second time.

1118
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:40,280
I forget, but yeah.

1119
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:41,840
You know who might be good?

1120
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:49,920
James is Daniel O'Connor from House of Pain might be good.

1121
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:52,160
I had Danny on as well.

1122
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:53,640
Okay.

1123
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:57,880
And Josh Stewart Shore from Boston, he's been on as well.

1124
01:35:57,880 --> 01:35:58,880
Okay.

1125
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:06,440
Yeah, I'm thinking of those guys straight away.

1126
01:36:06,440 --> 01:36:11,600
I can't really think of anyone that comes to mind immediately.

1127
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:12,600
Yeah.

1128
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:17,960
Well, let me know if you do, but yeah, actually I'm actually running a marathon in Tulsa and

1129
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:21,960
I know that Danny's got the outsider's house there, so I'm hoping while I'm over there,

1130
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:22,960
I can go visit the house.

1131
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:23,960
Oh, check out the museum.

1132
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:29,760
Yeah, I wanted to do that because I love the book by S.E. Hinton and then the movie by

1133
01:36:29,760 --> 01:36:31,680
Francis Ford Goldblatt.

1134
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:35,920
That movie gives this American cinematic like perfection.

1135
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:36,920
Absolutely.

1136
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:37,920
Absolutely.

1137
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:38,920
All right.

1138
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:42,680
Well, we've been kind of talking about this for part of the conversation, but what do

1139
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:43,680
you do to decompress?

1140
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:53,000
Again, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it's just meditation.

1141
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:59,120
I try to meditate at least once a day, sometimes twice.

1142
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:02,720
Listening to music will help me decompress too.

1143
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:07,680
Just like sitting in the living room listening to a good, spending a good record.

1144
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:15,040
Lately, I've been listening to Hot Water Music, this new album Vowels, which is incredible.

1145
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:24,800
So that will help me decompress, going for walks with my girlfriend is really helpful

1146
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:27,920
too because that's a mindful activity.

1147
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:36,000
So I've been doing a lot of walking and it feels like a skillful means to, obviously

1148
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:45,120
for fitness, cardiovascular fitness, but just kind of like to decompress and just enjoy

1149
01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:46,600
the beauty of nature too.

1150
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:47,600
100%.

1151
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:51,200
I walk my dog twice a day and I always leave my phone in the house.

1152
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:56,160
So that's like 30, 40 minutes each time of just me and my German shepherd.

1153
01:37:56,160 --> 01:38:01,840
She doesn't speak English, so we have to be quiet inside, moving meditation.

1154
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:02,840
All right.

1155
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:06,520
So then the very last question, if people want to find you online, where are the best

1156
01:38:06,520 --> 01:38:11,000
places?

1157
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:13,360
I have an Instagram site.

1158
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:15,200
It's Dharma practice.

1159
01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:18,200
So if they just put Dharma practice in there, they would find it.

1160
01:38:18,200 --> 01:38:19,200
My name's underneath it.

1161
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:20,200
Michael Mulcovy.

1162
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:21,200
Beautiful.

1163
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:23,880
Well, Michael, I want to say thank you so much.

1164
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:25,920
We've covered a bunch of topics.

1165
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:28,160
Obviously when you go in and you're like, oh, we're going to talk about rock music all

1166
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:29,160
the time.

1167
01:38:29,160 --> 01:38:33,080
Like I said, the rock and roll lifestyle, but this is what I love is these are things

1168
01:38:33,080 --> 01:38:34,640
that human beings do.

1169
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,800
What actually happened is obviously this very spiritual journey of recovery and all the

1170
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:42,800
different roles that you've held in a firefighter's uniform and bunker gear.

1171
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:47,600
And now I would argue as a force multiplier, helping the rescuer, helping the firefighters.

1172
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:51,920
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1173
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:53,520
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1174
01:38:53,520 --> 01:38:54,520
All right, James.

1175
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:55,520
Thanks for having me on.

1176
01:38:55,520 --> 01:38:56,520
I appreciate it.

1177
01:38:56,520 --> 01:39:00,200
And I look forward to listening to it back.

1178
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:06,520
And you know, really grateful to have been able to been a service and just talk about

1179
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:27,520
my direct experience.