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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show Army veteran, Boston firefighter and punk rock vocalist, Michael McColgan.
So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his early life, the invasion
of Iraq, the formation of the dropkick Murphys, his journey into the fire service, his powerful
addiction story, helping the Boston fire department with their mental health and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Michael McColgan.
Enjoy.
Well Michael, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you so much to our mutual friend, Noko Nolan, who has connected me with some
amazing people and you are the most recent, so thank you Noko.
And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
James, thanks for having me.
And I'd also like to give a big shout out to Noko Nolan.
He's a great friend and somebody that I've learned a lot from relative to wellness and
you know, de-escalation techniques and just living skillfully.
He's a great, great person.
He is.
I think he's that world's most interesting man that almost everyone I know that I've
met through this podcast, they also know Noko.
So he's fascinating.
Yeah, I think that's valid.
He is definitely the world's most interesting man.
All right.
Well, where on planet earth we finding you this evening?
Well, I'm in Dorchester, Massachusetts right now and it's where I live.
I work for the Boston Fire Department as Employee Assistance Program counselor.
It worked as a firefighter and a dispatcher as well.
Being on the Boston fire job, it's, you know, most members of the job live in Boston proper,
not all.
I find it wise to do so because I mean, it's a job where emergency management could evolve
at a moment's notice.
So yeah, that's where I'm at tonight.
Well, I would love to start at the very beginning of your story and obviously we'll work through
all these different roles that you've held.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
Sure.
I was born in St. Margaret's Hospital, April 6th, 1970 and my father worked for the MBTA,
Massachusetts Boston and Transit Authority as a track laborer and then later on became
a foreman of the Green Line track labor crew.
Then my mom worked for a bookstore, Bonds and Nobles and then she wanted to work after
that for the Boston Transportation Department at City Hall.
My brother Donald actually is a union plumber out of local 12.
He works at Harvard University as an in-house plumber.
So that's a little background about where I was born and what my family has done for
work and then extended family like aunts and uncles and cousins are all involved in trade,
trades and organized labor, healthcare and teaching.
So growing up here in Dorchester, Massachusetts, which is part of Boston, it's politics and
being part of the labor movement was sort of like a birthright.
You're in whether you want to be or not.
There's a beautiful irony that an Ivy League school needs a tradesman to keep it running.
Just to think my brother's guidance counselor told him he'd never get to Harvard University.
There he is.
I was thinking the same thing.
This is interesting because obviously you've got certain professions where that kind of
college makes sense, but there are so many where I think these poor young men and women
are left with these massive debts with degrees that don't leave to a career.
I think you and I obviously are certainly in the fire service and paramedic for me as
well.
That was trade school and you are literally out in the world saving lives.
I hope this is the kind of era where we invest a lot more time and money into trades again
because the purely academic route works for true professionals, lawyers and doctors and
engineers, but I think there's a lot of disillusioned students with massive debt that it really
didn't do anything for.
No, agreed.
I have people I grew up with and friends who went the academia route and took on a significant
amount of student loans and the job market was tenuous and difficult for them.
Like I had stated earlier, a lot of people in my family and even friends beyond that
were in the trades, building trades as pipe fitters, electricians, laborers, ironworkers,
etc.
And plumbers, they have work.
And if it's not commercial work, some tradespeople can get right into residential side.
And yeah, like technical schools and trades and things like that, I feel like are always
going to be required and needed.
So making those pathways available to students in schools more widely available or talking
about that earlier would probably be a good thing.
I'm going to go on a massive tangent now, but it's an interesting perspective because
you've got a lot of family members and friends that are in professions that have unions as
well.
The kind of leadership in our IAFF now obviously has become Boston centric as opposed to Virginia
centric before.
And what I've seen in my career is I adore the union philosophy, all of us together fighting
for better working conditions and safer working environments.
But at times it's been abused.
And I think the previous leadership in the IAFF, we discovered there's some pretty massive
abuse at the top.
When you look at all these professions and all these labor unions, the ones that you're
familiar with, which ones are doing it right?
And what are some of the mistakes being made by certain unions in the fire service that
aren't producing the kind of improving working environment that we should be seeing?
I think sadly, with power comes the abuse of it.
And the leadership that preceded the current leadership in the IAFF definitely got unskillful
with financial resources.
That's been well documented.
I feel like the newer leadership is doing an exceptional job of accounting for every
red cent that comes in and goes out.
And that should be how it is all the time.
And I feel like with building trades and even like the teamsters, for example, there's been
problematic behavior at the top before.
At this time, 2024, I think a lot of the general membership, whether it be in the teamsters
or the IAFF or building trades, want more accountability and more transparency.
And I feel like the leadership now has to open everything up and put that forward.
So I feel like in 2024 versus, let's say 1984, 1994, 2004, it's better.
Excellent.
Yeah.
I think even nationally, I was talking to Tulsi Gabbard recently and you just see the
false economy.
For example, healthcare in this country, you don't have to be a Harvard graduate economist
to understand that if you make your country healthier, it will cost less to take care
of them.
And that's been completely missed both sides of the aisles for decades now.
So I hope that this is going to be in our own union, obviously nationally as well, that
we're going to hold people accountable and start demanding proactive solutions.
For example, this is the dead horse that I flog all the time.
Boston, crap me if I'm wrong, you work a 42-hour work week?
Where I'm attached to headquarters, I work like a 40-hour work week.
But we're on call constantly with employee assistance.
We have a full-time employee assistance program and then we're tied in with CISM and peer
support.
Fire suppression and fire alarm, the dispatch side have opportune schedule, group schedule,
four groups and typically have like a 48-hour work schedule per week.
Right.
Yeah.
See, this is what I hope that as a professional, we will do is we'll get that down to 40, 42,
and ABCD, ABCD, because again, working conditions and sleep are massive things in other unions,
shipping and aviation and trucking and we're something I hope that we'll catch up on.
You brought up Tulsi Gabbitt earlier talking about keeping people healthy and that would
bring down overall health care costs in the US.
I completely agree with that and that goes just beyond physical health.
That gets into wellness, that gets into mental health and trumpeting that and amplifying
that and offering that for people of all professions or folks from all walks of lives is huge.
It's better to have that ounce of prevention, fitness and wellness and things of the like
on the front end as opposed to what it costs on the back end.
I think they've been a big problem in the US.
Absolutely.
Well, I want to go back to your timeline.
When you were a kind of school age, sports and exercise, what were you playing and doing?
When I was a teenager, I think I was playing intramural basketball at high school, not
on the varsity team.
I didn't have the chops or the skills for that.
Like playing floor hockey, St. Brendan's Parish.
I think prior to that, I also played little league two baseball.
My story, I wasn't an exceptional athlete, but I can recall growing up playing little
league and then playing intramural sports in high school.
I feel like that kept us out of trouble, being engaged and active in that stuff.
And sadly, this is just an opinion.
A lot of people have very different opinions, it seems like technology, smartphones and
things of the like, it seems like maybe they've taken kids away from that and they're more
caught up in what's going on and social media and things of the like.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, I've always said that kids and dogs are the same.
You've got to exercise them, you've got to do things that test their mind.
So you can't just walk a dog, you've got to throw the ball and do some commands, give
them some things to actually work on their brain.
The opposite was COVID.
Look how so many people felt when they were cooped up and all they could do is watch TV
and people would start losing their minds.
So I mean, we've done this great social experiment to show the damaging element of some of these
devices on our children and they're amazing.
They have amazing application when used sensibly.
But if you babysit through a tablet, you end up with these kids that are 14, 15 years old
with spines like an 80 year old or obese or no muscle tone.
One day you're hoping they're going to be soldiers and firefighters and they can't.
They're not even going to be in that pool of candidates.
So we're doing a massive disservice to them to be able to be the professions that maybe
they dreamed of and then obviously their longevity as well.
Yeah, I agree 100% with that.
I work in addiction with the fire department as an employee assistance program counselor.
Addiction isn't just booze and drugs.
It could be gambling, sex, shopping and technology.
Because phones are a new frontier in addiction and a lot of processed addictions like gambling,
like sex, like shopping, they have recovery programs.
But the phones will be the next frontier.
And I agree with you 100% that people are becoming beholden to it and addicted to it.
And I mean, you've probably heard this too, like the same dopamine that booze and drugs
would give to somebody is what people experience when they get hits on social media or likes
or things of the like.
So I really feel like as time goes on, there'll be possibly 12 step groups or other programs
for the phones.
Another area that you don't normally hear people talk about and it just again, you know,
I've been on an eight year journey of almost 1000 conversations.
So I'm constantly learning and kind of reforming my opinions, but the way I think, but the
you know, what we used to affectionately refer to as the overtime whore, the addiction to
working so that you don't have to process the things that are sitting in the back of
your mind.
100% and I fell into that, you know, as far as at work to absolutely 100% is if I hurl
myself into hours and take as many as I can, and I just stay inside this bubble, I don't
have to deal with anything else.
And I found in my own direct experience, it didn't work.
It was maladaptive, just like, you know, I'm in recovery from booze and drugs.
I've been sober since 1992.
And you know, and I've seen addiction manifest in other ways in my life too.
And addiction is a maladaptive way to try to deal with, you know, complicated emotions
or loss or grief, and it doesn't work.
What I found in my own direct experience in my own life over the last five years and earlier,
you mentioned COVID, like COVID was a reset for me in a way, because prior to it, I started
to get into, you know, get into Buddhism and in Dharma.
And that kind of, in all throughout COVID, I got way more and more into it because it
was informing me or advising me or inviting me to see that wellness and recovery is an
inside job.
It's not external, like chasing sense pleasures to deal with afflictive emotions or grief
or the stress of the job.
It doesn't work.
And I found that meditation, mindfulness is a very, very good way to kind of slow down,
take a breath, observe and pause.
And this is good for the job.
It's good off the job.
And you can learn to skillfully respond as opposed to knee jerk reactions and lose your
mind or get angry.
I had a guy on Jim Poole probably just over a year ago now.
I was introduced to a thing called NUCALM.
And it used to be the real backstory.
There was an incredibly intelligent American neuroscientist, I think he was, and he spent
I think 15 plus years trying to figure out the frequency of the brain at the different
emotional states.
Then he spent another 10 years figuring out, can you make the brain go into those states?
Can you influence it?
And what he came up with was this machine and you put on a face mask and headphones
and you sit there and you're listening to music, but underneath is this kind of undulation
of all these kind of frequencies.
And because smartphones, again, saying the good things of technology, because they've
become so incredible now, now it's an app, same exact thing.
So you put the headphones that you got on now and an eye mask and there's one called
PowerNap, which is 20 minutes and then there's Recovery, sorry, Rescue, which is 20 minutes
away through to like 100.
And it down regulates the nervous system.
It is amazing.
And that along with meditation, I find has worked so well.
And if you want to punctuate between a shift and going home, you just go back to the bunk
room for 20 minutes, throw that on or in your car in the parking lot.
And you feel like you had a couple hours sleep and it just takes you from that kind of hyper
vigilant down to kind of us are in a pseudo flow state.
That is something that a lot of people haven't heard of, but truly, truly amazing.
And it's not just something like a Spotify playlist.
This is like a one gig file per track or per session that you do.
So the things you don't hear that are really doing the magic, it's absolutely phenomenal.
But again, it's the same thing.
It's down regulate and it's working on the inside, as you said, not the outside.
Yeah, and I'm finding, you know, relative to meditation that there's more receptivity
and open mindedness in the fire service with the younger members than say, for instance,
the older members of the job.
And I think when you explain or reflect on, you know, meditation isn't like it's not
siege mentality, it isn't like picking Buddhism over Catholicism or you're not walking away
from your faith or anything like that.
It's a philosophy.
It's something you can use to, like you say, like, you know, bring that hyper vigilance
down.
Like in mindfulness, based stress reduction can bring stress down and, you know, as far
as anxiety or depression and things of the like, you know, mindfulness or meditation
can can bring you back to where your feet are at.
And you can use mantras or words in seated meditation or walking meditation.
For example, walking meditation is something that's a skillful means like if you're doing,
you know, housework around the firehouse cleaning up or anything, you could, you know, when
you put your left foot down, you could be like here and then your right foot now.
So if your mind's like trying to run all over the place or proliferate, you can always just
bring it back to the moment.
And a lot of, you know, firefighters that I've spoken with about this have found, you
know, direct experience benefit from using it.
I think a lot of us now in this day and age conceptually hear about it and that it can
change neural pathways and you can find some ease and calm and things of the like or be
with the light that's here, like pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, whatever's going on.
It's another thing when you invite people to use it and then they use it and then they
find benefits.
So, you know, in my job as a counselor, like offering that up, there's more receptivity
and it feels like it's, you know, as with everything changing.
I feel like more people are open to it.
100%.
Yeah, I like Headspace, that app as well, because you're getting a pseudo guided, but
the more you do it, the less he talks, you know, you get more and more used to being
quiet.
But I think this is the commonality and I personally like the philosophy of, you know,
just taking the kind of common denominators of all the faiths and taking that as my personal
doctrine.
And if you look at pretty much all the faiths, there's a form of prayer, which is arguably
meditation.
Now, sometimes it's become asking for more money or it's kind of a little distorted,
but I think ultimately it was just, you know, quietening your mind when no matter what the
faith was, I think that was the underlying reason for prayer.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with that 100% because, you know, not that I'm a religious majors
study or, you know, bachelor's of science or PhD in any of it, just in my own direct
experience working at Buddhism or Hinduism or Catholicism, Stoicism, Taoism, Taoism,
there's so much interconnectivity and similarity in living skillfully, quieting the mind, concentrating
on mantras, concentrating on your breathing and body scan and feeling tones and being
the witness to thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations as they arise and cease and realizing
that a feeling isn't a fact and a thought isn't a commandment that everything's transient
and it comes and it goes.
So I think when you invite people to try meditation and you kind of indicate to them that there
isn't a right or wrong way to do it, what you're doing is just like watching what's
going on and learning to turn toward anything that's going on, pleasant, unpleasant or
neutral and kind of being taken that witness position.
And I've found that people that have receptivity and are trying it are gaining some benefit
from it.
And it's really counter-institutional for a lot of members on our job when I first unpacked
that and say, you know, there's no right or wrong way to do it.
You just do it and like let go.
Because of our conditioning and upbringing, there's a right way and a wrong way to do
something.
Yeah, and an immediate result.
Yeah.
So that can be a stumbling block at first, but when people try and they have receptivity
and they kind of soften and let go of it, they can kind of just find some ease and some
calm and try to, you know, like I said earlier, I love the act.
I like to, I love the, that's like that acronym, stop, like slow down, take a breath, observe
and pause.
That's something that I feel like when I had been invited to do that, that was super, super
helpful for me.
Going back to the school age again, what about music?
What was the kind of power of that in your life and were you playing any instruments
or kind of wanting to sing at that point?
I think when I was in eighth grade, I heard the Clash, the first album by the Clash.
I heard the first song Clash City Rockers.
And in that moment, I knew that Michael Jackson and Prince and all the things that I'd been
listening to, although very good, it was over.
I just intuitively felt like, okay, there's meat on the bone here.
This band, it just struck a nerve and resonated with me.
And then I was, I was sort of like, from that moment on, I started looking at liner notes
and lyrics and like I got geeky about it.
Like I, I just couldn't have a record in this, been it, it'd be casual.
I wanted to know where it was made, who the producers, you know, what the lyrics meant.
And of course, you know, when you read lyrics and you hear music, in my own direct experience,
it's always been, okay, like I assign a meaning to it.
And with the Clash, you know, that first album, the green album made me go get Give Him Enough
Rope and you know, their finest album, London Collins Sandinista, Combat Rock.
And you know, from there it was the jam, the Sex Pistols, even like, like, even like Stiffle
the Fingers and it just, I, some, even U2, early U2 was, you know, more like punkish
and rabble rousin and more rebel music.
And one thing too that I found was some of the Irish music I'd been listening to and
you know, my uncle's or aunt's kitchen in Saban Hill, there was interconnectivity with
punk rock and even like a band like The Pokes.
And I just got really into music and I started writing band names on my school books.
And you know, I would take, you know, I'd put covers over my books and you know, Clash,
you know, Stiffle the Fingers, like Sex Pistols and I dreamt I'm like, I'd love to be able
to be like these guys and say something that was substantive and not all lovey dovey.
And fortunately, because of recovery, I got to make some music and to, you know, open
my heart and open my mind and just pour out what my direct experience in life, you know,
kind of informed me to write about or sing about.
And I'm extremely, extremely fortunate to like have been in Dropkick Murphys to make
the boys on the Doc EP to do a Di album and then with Street Dogs, you know, getting to
make like six studio albums, you know, super, super grateful.
Like I don't think it's a right, I kind of consider it a privilege.
So that was that the Clash was the formative thing that was that changed the whole game.
I was a big Michael Jackson fan when I was younger too.
But now when I look back, I don't remember the Clash grooming children at the Neverland
Ranch, so you probably chose the right path.
Well, when you talked about sobriety, if I did my math right, you were 22 when you began
that journey.
When you look back now, talk to me about the kind of struggles that you had when you were
younger and what sent you into addiction.
Because I think this is a big part of the first responder mental health story that we
miss is what happened to us before we put the uniform on our formative years.
Yeah, so, you know, I started drinking at a really young age and it's like absolutely
absurd when I reflect on it, like when I was 12 years old.
And I became a weekend warrior pretty, pretty quickly in junior high and then all throughout
high school.
So before I graduated high school, like, you know, you know, now obviously looking to a
more soluble lens and having recovery, I can, it's my sense, you know, I was pretty mired
in alcoholism at that point.
Then joined the military and it really took off because in the army, like I went to basic
training in AIT one station unit training and then in the AIT section of basic training
on weekends we got, you know, some liberty.
We could, you know, we could go to like the enlisted members club and then there was booze
there and I was like, I remember that first weekend liberty.
I was just like drinking obscene amounts of beer.
Like we got, I went into this enlisted members club at Fort Sill, Oklahoma called the case
I named after about in Vietnam.
And I paid $5 and I had an empty milk gallon and I could just fill it all night long off
the top.
And you know, it had been like eight weeks since I had drank and, you know, it just took
off and I remember blacking out that night and from that point on with drinking, you
know, blackouts were a part of my experience.
Particularly when I got to permanent duty station in Germany and, you know, Germany
had bars that didn't close at two in the morning.
It was around the clock.
So my drinking just really took off and hit another gear.
And it's miraculous that I didn't get booted out of the military.
Like my father, God rest his soul, used to say, God looks out for drunks and children.
And you know, I wound up getting out of the military with an honorable discharge.
And then I got back home.
I had a job waiting for me at a newspaper in Boston.
And before I even entered the building, I was drinking a six pack.
And then when I was that first shift, I was drinking on the job and off the job.
So it was that led me up to, you know, I was mired in pretty heavy alcoholism.
And as far as drugs, if they were around, I wasn't saying no.
And you know, it just wasn't.
And you know, I think it was my father who was really pivotal because he was in recovery
and helping me get to recovery when I was 22.
And you know, yeah, it was July 30, 1992.
And I haven't found it necessary to pick up a drink of drugs since.
So I've been really fortunate in that respect.
When you look back, what do you think, well, what were the elements of your upbringing
that created this void that led to the binge drinking?
You know, I, you know, although my father was sober and he used to always beat that
drama, me and my brother, that, you know, there's alcoholism in our family and, you
know, he was, he warned us about it.
Oh, you know, everybody in my family was drinking.
So if I went to holiday parties or it was, we were surrounded by it.
In my neighborhood growing up, my friends, they wanted to do it.
We wanted to be down the tracks.
We wanted to be down the beach.
We wanted to be down by the bar of fires, the parks.
So I was immersed in it and it was around me.
Now I had this overwhelming preoccupation with what other people thought of me at that
time and it was almost, almost debilitating.
So if my friends were drinking, I'm drinking.
If my friends were wearing Nikes, I'm wearing Nikes.
If my friends, you know, are wearing a Ralph Lauren jacket, I'm wearing one.
So that's some of the things that kind of put me on that path to get, you know, mired
in drinking and then that's what led me, you know, eventually to recovery.
Talk to me about the Gulf War.
You deployed there, is that right, when you were in the army?
Yeah, so I can remember in 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait, I want to say it was August
2nd, 1990 if I recall correctly.
We were, I was in the 3rd Armored Division, 4th, the 82nd Field Artillery, Chauvy Battery
and we were in Grafenwehr-Hornfeld in Germany training.
So our first month was in Grafenwehr and when we got word that it happened, we were only
at the time schedule for 30 days and then we got additional orders, go to Hornfeld for
another 45 days.
So I guess in my mind I've sensed eventually we're going to wind up, we're going to wind
up going over there.
Fair enough, Desert Shield evolved, they sent, I think they sent the 82nd Airborne, they
sent the 24th Mech and it was December, it was, I think, actually around November we
got word that we would be going too.
So 26 December 1990 we went to Saudi Arabia, Dahran and we waited for, like I was in artillery
so we waited for M109 Alphaduses to come in.
You know when the air war kicked off, you know there was scuds going through the air
and everything and it was surreal.
I can remember being inside a hangar in Dahran, hearing things blow up overhead, being in
like MOP-4 and thinking I'm done.
Like one of those scuds are going to come right through that, top of that hangar and
I was going to be like, you know, a pile of dust.
But that didn't happen and eventually I got to go into the ground war which was February
of 91.
I think we were, I think it was, if I remember right we were just at it for about four days
and the enemy was really close to like Republican Guard elements or like, you know, 4,000 meters
down range and we were just pulverizing them because the air war had already softened them
up significantly and, you know, they called a ceasefire and we were stunned because we
had been told hey, 14 days of combat, nuclear biological chemical environment, most of the
time you'll be in MOP-4, half of you are going to die.
They painted a pretty bleak picture but I understand why now because they wanted us
to be frosty and just supercharged up and squared away with how we do our job and load
rounds into the breach and all that made us like hyped up and it's, like reflecting on
it, it blows my mind because what we thought was going to happen and how it actually went
was significantly different and I mean I'm grateful for that obviously but it showed
me like the ferocity of combat and just grateful that obviously I made it out of there and
there's a part of me too like now being into Dharma and Buddhism and meditating that, you
know, I feel like violence and combat just kind of continues a cycle of violence and
confrontation and it doesn't really solve anything in the long term if ever.
No, I mean you look back, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and we had Catholics and Protestants
killing each other in Ireland and obviously you had the loyalists and Republicans, I don't
know if I'm labeling them right, but the pro and anti-UK and it's understandable.
You reverse engineer and you go back to the division of Ireland and the potato famine
and back and back and back and then you look at our involvement that created some of the
issues in Iraq and then you look at Afghanistan and it just keeps perpetuating and I think
what's sad is that more often than not an entire country is labeled like the entire
country of Russia must want to invade Ukraine and it's like no, I'm sure most of them just
want to get on with their lives and watch their kids grow up but until we have I think
a national awakening as a nation where these tyrants kind of poke their head up and we
just cut their head off straight away like nope, you're not going to be another Hitler,
it's going to keep happening over and over again but when we look back at history, I
mean the lessons are so glaring, they're so obvious and yet we seem to just allow them
to perpetuate over and over again.
Yeah, I mean again I'm not here to convert anybody to Buddhism or Dharma but I think
what I've learned in my brief time doing it about five years now that it was reflected
on in Pali Canon by the Buddha that the world is consumed with greed, hatred and delusion
and that repetitive clinging and craving for pleasant sensations or wealth or materialism
is the root of all suffering.
And I feel like it's the only philosophy that I feel like there's truth in it and in my
own direct experience, lived experience in life, like you, kind of a monon, like that
repetitive combat and fighting and it just doesn't really get us anywhere, it just sets
the table for more fighting and more problematic occurrences and I think that's why I really
found like a refuge in Buddhism to kind of live skillfully and more mindfully and just
try to pay forward what I can in life and do the good in front of me.
Absolutely.
So you talk about Iraq, one of the places I know that people struggle is the transition
from one of our professions away from that tribe.
So obviously you've got that titanic tribe that you've forged in the US Army, you fight
together side by side.
Talk to me about the transition out of the military and then was that jarring for you
or did you find another tribe in the fire service pretty quickly?
Yeah, there was some difficulty like coming back home for sure, ETSing out and then like
really having a bad boost problem.
I can remember low crawling in blackouts in my kitchen.
I can remember having dreams about Scud's impact in base camp, all sorts of stuff.
So there was definitely difficulty like coming back home and there was a big reluctance to
speak to that because I was in the military and even like on my block it was like, you
know, you don't talk about shit.
You know what I mean?
You just keep a stiff upper lip, just keep moving at all costs and we don't talk about
feelings around here.
So that was still in play back then.
And I think when I got to recovery I softened a lot and I started to have more receptivity
to different ideas and increased my internal bandwidth.
And when I did eventually get onto the fire service, drill school was very, the feeling
of drill school and that coach knit, all of us, you know, firefighters on probation, PTing,
you know, having cadre again to teach us evolutions and fire suppressions, hazmat, EMS, that felt
like home again.
It felt very, very similar to being a boot camp again.
So yeah, I mean, I landed in a place that was familiar.
And I think in the fire service, you know, there is a, it is like a family and it extends
worldwide and we all get each other.
And I'm just, I'm really grateful to be a part of it.
And I seen it extend beyond being a firefighter.
When I got involved with Dropkick Murphy's and the street dogs and went touring, like
people from the job were coming out with unicorns and things like that.
And, you know, although I had like gone on a leave of absence from the job, it didn't
feel like I was that far away.
What were the tools that work for you to become sober when so many people struggle and fall
off the wagon multiple times?
I think the thing that, you know, alcoholics and honorists where I went talked about was
to kind of get in touch with a higher power.
And you know, even though I practice the philosophy of Dharma and Buddhism and meditate and walk
that path, I feel like I still believe in the higher power of my youth to Jesus Christ.
And I read it really, I read it, that was, you know, and it was, it was, you know, at
first it was a heavy amount of skepticism when they said, you know, you know, pray for
yourself, pray for them.
Like I was just like, I just didn't believe it.
I was extremely angry.
But I tried it because I was desperate and it worked.
So I think it's that spiritual connection that enabled me to stay sober and then attendance
at meetings.
Like I think the one thing I've done right in alcoholics and honorists is not pick up
a drink and never stop going to meetings.
I found that a lot of people that I knew that got away from meetings, they wanted to pick
it up and sometimes they didn't come back and unfortunately some of them, you know,
passed away.
So I think the thing that enabled me to stay was to kind of try to do the good in front
of me and keep it in the day like A.A. talks about.
And then I mean later on down the line, you know, when I seen addiction manifest and otherwise,
I got involved in refuge recovery and I got and that all happened.
I got involved in Buddhism and Dharma and then found the meditation piece.
And that really helps me with everything because I feel like every moment thought, mood, sensation
and everything is all part of just for the milf of Dharma, you know.
Absolutely.
Yeah, we were talking before I hit record, I interviewed a guy who is he was a very successful
businessman in the UK and he's got a thing called one year no beer.
He himself found sobriety and he was just trying to change the way it was going to be
a message to people.
And it was more about changing a relationship with alcohol rather than saying I'm never
going to drink again.
And just talking to him, something tripped in my mind and I was never a binge drinker,
but I was a frequent drinker, you know, two or three in the evening to I'm doing air quotes
now, wind down, knowing damn well that it upsets your sleep, not the opposite.
And yeah, two and a half months and it's just that that change.
But what I've done is I've put in more exercise, you know, more I've started meditating, doing
the headspace more diligently using new calm and just taking away that underlying kind
of anxiety or whatever that thing was.
And I found that the non alcoholic beers now every so often if I have a, you know, a taste
for IPA, I'll have a zero, you know, percent alcohol IPA and it's like, oh, I just wanted
the drink.
I didn't want the alcohol.
So for me, you know, some people it's like you said, the cultural habitual thing, that's
a very, very strong element to some are literally drinking to sleep, to forget, to feel, you
know, and that's the more extreme.
But a lot of us are, you know, the more social drinkers, you still still damaging your body,
poisoning your body.
So replacing that with an actual healthy way to down regulate has been amazing for me.
Yeah, that's that seems like a more skillful means to to bring it headspace app on board
and in meditation.
And I found what I found with meditation in my own direct experience that all the feelings
I have thoughts, moods, sensations, emotions are impermanent.
And if I can say yes to the life that's here, pleasant, unpleasant, a neutral and realize
that this too shall pass and and breathe and use mantras like here, now let go.
And I found that that's a way to kind of to to to de escalate a discursive mind or or
cultivate some ease and some calm and some and some regulation.
So I really feel like, you know, again, like meditation is a skillful means.
And I've like you, I think, well, I would say more appropriately, like I think that
you've heard about it being able to change neural pathways and and and to make people
respond more skillfully as opposed to reacting.
And that helps a lot on the job as a firefighter when you do very, very stressful things.
For example, has Matt's fires.
And I've dealt with some people that have had difficulties, you know, where, you know,
you go in into cardiac arrest situations or, you know, kids in medicals and people have
been able to kind of just breathe and be in the moment and then have, you know, some compassion
for the people they're dealing with.
And because I think one of the things that happens with the fire service is it becomes
like it's not a big deal for us to go into those situations.
It's to us, it's just another day at work.
But you know, to the people that are going through it, it's the worst day of their entire
lives.
So I don't know, I feel like keeping that in mind, it has been something that's that
has been a benefit to me and trying to kind of pay that forward to other people too.
Yeah, I used to use box breathing a lot when we were going to the bigger calls.
And then even this funny even I remember one time I was handed a limp baby like right when
we pulled up to the curb and, you know, kind of getting in that stress state and it was
taking a few breaths and remembering ABC is the most basic algorithm that we're taught
that you don't even think of twice as a medic normally.
But you know, someone blinds eyes you and all of a sudden that breathing and then just
back to the to the basic, basic things that you've taught.
Okay, airway breathing, here we go.
And then, you know, you try and save this little one up.
This is an abuse case.
So there was no saving it.
But yeah, but I mean, that it's not just about down regulation.
It's also performance.
You know, if you're breathing and getting into that pseudo flow state, you are going
to be more effective on a primary search or figuring out, you know, cardiac algorithms
on a on a PED.
Yeah, 100% like box breathing is I took this mindfulness based stress reduction course
through mindful leader and MBSR is something that John Kabat-Zinn came up with in the 70s
and it's derivative of Buddhism and mindfulness is derivative of Buddhism.
And the Buddha, you know, discovered it in Bodh Gaya 2600 years ago and box breathing
was something we were taught to.
And with like, like first responders getting rest or rehab or focusing in on on work like
and not letting anxiety overwhelm me if you go into a fire.
You're going into like a tough medical situation is super, super helpful because you can kind
of be where your feet are at and be more ready to respond with competency instead of letting
anxiety like, you know, get you out of sorts.
Well, this is what's funny as well.
I'd never thought of this really until I started the podcast and I was talking to, you know,
people about breath work and meditation and obviously fitness.
And then you realize we're one of the only professions on the planet where the only air
available to us is the tank on our back.
And so your cardiovascular fitness and your, you know, your, your mindfulness, basically
that the stress mitigation are both directly related to how many breaths you take and how
long that tank lasts.
But you go to fire Academy and I remember I'm teaching skip breathing.
I used to use that a lot, which is very helpful, but that's about it.
It's just one fleeting discussion on that's really, you know, making your tank last, but
you know, your fitness makes your tank last.
And then your mindset, you know, if you are not in a panic state and you're efficient
climbing those stairs and, you know, taking very deliberate breaths.
And when it comes to, you know, forcing a door and realizing there's a kid in there
somewhere now you've got, you know, that extra bit.
But as I have with one of my guests in the Grenfell fire in London, and I'm not saying
that he wasn't fit or mitigating his air, but when it came to the fire floor, they only
had enough air to turn around and come back down again.
Now it was untenable at that point.
So this, you know, based on his report, there was no chance anyone was alive anyway.
But you know, imagine if you were deconditioned and you were stressed and you made it to the
fire floor and you had to turn around because you were about to tap out and that child died.
You know, this is not just down regulation and our mental health.
This is also flow state and performance.
Yeah, it's relative to job performance.
And yeah, if you can control your breathing and be where your feet are at and be in the
moment and not be hijacked, not have the mind be hijacked by anxiety, you're in a much better
place to efficiently and exceptionally perform duties.
That mean with, you know, life safety on the fire ground, like pulling people out of buildings
or working people on the way out or out front.
You know, these, you know, box breathing, meditation, mindfulness based stress reduction,
these things are, you know, they'll help you off the job.
But more importantly, I feel like they'll help you like do the job skillfully.
100%.
Well, you mentioned the jam, the clash, sex pistols.
So you're thinking about, you know, you're relating with this music and you're analyzing
it as a young man.
Talk to me about dropkick Murphys and street dogs and how that kind of intermingled with
your fire service career.
So you know, I left the dropkick Murphys to get on the Boston Fire Department and I got
on and was on for about three years and a friend of mine, Jeff Erna, who is the original
drummer for the dropkick Murphys called me up and said, Rob Godotti, who is a friend
of ours, he's a friend of the guys in the Murphys too, has some songs and he keeps bringing
your name up.
So you want to come down and check them out?
I was like, sure, just casual about it, no big deal.
We stopped working on the songs.
We do a demo.
And you know, the band originally was, you know, Rob Godotti, Michelle Paulus on bass
and then Jeff on drums.
And then Michelle left the fold.
And you know, I called up Johnny Rio to come on board and that infused a lot of life into
the street dogs.
And you know, us messing around like it being polka night or casual, you know, we did a
couple of shows and then this is like early 2000s when, you know, music could get onto
the internet.
And you know, I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
So the demo got onto the internet and all of a sudden we have record deals coming at
us.
And I was stunned.
I didn't expect that at all.
It was a difficult decision to like leave the fire service to pursue street dogs all
the time, but I think one of the things that I think recovery gave me confidence that if
I wanted to go back to the fire service, I could.
And I never wanted to, I don't think I ever wanted to be on a porch when I was older,
like would have, could have, should have.
That was my mindset.
And you know, Pursuit Street Dogs all the time and we did six studio albums and it was
amazing.
We traveled the world, you know, we connected with a lot of people and recently we just
did a sold out reunion show at the Middle East.
Last Thursday night we did, we were on the Punk and Drunk festival Saturday, like No
Effects is having their final farewell tour.
We played that.
And I was able to come back to the fire service in 2016 and I'm still a member and I feel
like with the band we can place Joe's hair in there.
I'm really, really fortunate to be able to have been on the job and then do music and
still be on the job.
Yeah, a lot of that's attributable to recovery.
That's just my feeling of where I land with it.
What were the negative influences of, you know, what we would character, let's get
on with it again, let me try and spit this word out.
The caricature would be the rock and roll lifestyle.
So you have someone who's sober around, you know, I'm assuming some alcohol, drugs, depending
on the crowd situation.
You know, did you find yourself kind of being against the grain a little bit or were you
surrounded by other people that were also living a sober lifestyle and it was easier
than we think?
I think on the road, you know, I would go to meetings and in music, you either find
people that are completely mired in booze and drugs or you.
You know, you'll find people that are sober.
So as it turned out, like I would always like gravitate toward people that were sober, be
it other bands or crew members and go to meetings.
So I always stayed connected, you know.
So I was fortunate in that respect.
Talk to me about doing something outside the fire service because as we learn more and
more about the struggles and we mentioned about the transition from the military, one
of the things that I see as a reoccurring theme is a lot of firefighters get to the end
of their career and they transition out and they're like, OK, well, I guess I'll just
go teach at a fire academy now.
You know, cops transition, they go do security.
You know, the military, a lot of times we go into the contracting.
So they view it as like, well, all I can do is firefighting.
So I'm going to go teach firefighting.
The reality is, you know, you work as a team, you work under high stress, you're a problem
solver, there's all these great attributes and you're also a human being first.
So in your case, you are a firefighter and you are a musician.
You know, those two things can exist perfectly and there's times where you prioritize one
more than the other and, you know, it's dynamic.
But there's this kind of, you know, all I should be is a firefighter and I go to all
the conferences and I wear t-shirts all the time, you know, it becomes a complete identity,
which I think is very unhealthy.
There has to be a line where, you know, you're also a husband and a wife and, you know, all
the other things too, and there's a balance.
So you've kind of walked the walk in this.
You know, there was times where you're like, okay, the music at this moment is an opportunity.
I can't turn down.
I'd adore the fire service, but I'm going to step away for a bit.
Then I'll go back.
So talk to me about that entire philosophy because it's not often that you hear people
with, and I would say, you know, use the word courage, the courage to step away from profession
where it's frowned upon to step away from the profession.
So again, like recovery was a big part of having like the confidence, the self-esteem
to do that.
And you know, I was fortunate to be able to leave the fire service, do music, and then
come back to the fire service.
And I can, I like how you're framing this up because I don't want the job to be my 100%
identity.
I've never wanted that.
And you know, on weekends, I teach mindfulness at a peer recovery place on Saturday.
I teach it Sunday at a substance abuse use treatment center.
And intuitively, I already sense that when I'm, you know, eventually retire from the
job, I would move in that direction to kind of, you know, continue to do that type of
teaching or even maybe potentially be a therapist.
So I don't ever want to be like the person that made the job 100% of their identity and
all facets of their life.
Like I want to be able to turn it off and recovery helps me to be able to turn it off.
Meditation helps me to be able to turn it off.
Beautiful.
Well, I want to get to the communications and then we'll get to your role now.
And just before we do, when you were actually on a rig responding to calls as a firefighter
specifically, when you look back, what were some of the career calls that you had?
I think one thing that comes to mind immediately was the Six O'Lan fire in East Boston where
three buildings were fully engulfed and it was a long stand.
Like a lot of guys I went to drill school with were at that fire and we got pulled out
of the building before it started to kind of like floors and roofs and stuff like that
caved in.
It kind of felt like a close call on that one.
Another one is kind of comical.
I remember going to a medical in the Chinatown section of Boston and somebody had OD'd.
I was brand new at the time and they had a shop in their arm and everything and Boston
AMS rolled in and hit them with a knock-in and they killed right up and they went to
battle with me and another guy from Engine 10.
And when we got back to the station, they were playing the Rocky music over the PAA
and everything.
I mean, there's so many different types of calls.
I remember going to Engine 16, having been on Engine 10 for two years then going over
to Engine 16 and my second day we had a fire and my lieutenant, I was on the pump operator
at Engine Air.
Before he even got into the building, he had a two and a half inch line and he didn't go
over the radio.
He made eye contact with me and I opened it up.
I've had a two and a half inch charge line in the building and that is heavy.
He was a bull to get that thing up to the second floor.
To this day I don't know how he did it.
Yeah I think about stuff like that comes to mind.
I think about how today safety chiefs are smarter about when people should take off
at CBA like during overhauling.
Things are way more mindful and considerate of health and welfare and occupational cancer
on the job.
I missed a huge fire at Edison plant in South Boston.
I remember swapping off a tour and there was a huge night on fire there and there were
like PCBs in the building and a lot of people I know got sick and cancer.
Some had died from that fire.
I remember feeling like I should have been in there side by side with everybody in the
battle.
But now I think I have a different mindset.
I guess I was fortunate that it didn't wind up going in there because it's very likely
I might not be talking here right now.
I was talking to Sam, the union president a while ago who was on the show.
Sam Dillon is a great union president.
Yeah absolutely.
Great conversation.
But we were talking about this because I remember your department being one of the first ones
when it came to cancer specifically and you're doing those beautiful documentaries on people
that were struggling, people that you lost.
And again this is another thing with the sleep deprivation side and the shifts is that's
also a carcinogen.
So we were talking about this like deconing the gear and putting time events over engines
and not having your ice maker in the bay.
These are all completely pertinent but also the rest and recovery.
The body has the ability to fend off cancer if it's in homeostasis but if it's broken
down and the immune system is kind of working on fumes then that's where we're a lot more
likely to respond to these carcinogens as well.
So it's like this double pronged conversation we need to be having.
I agree.
I feel like Sam, even like the general president, Eddie Kelly have really amplified this issue
and have put forward things that would help the membership, the IAFF membership firefighters
all over the US, particularly some of the bunker gear that has chemicals in it that
could be carcinogenic or cancerous.
So I'm glad our general president's beaten that drum.
I'm glad there's been changes but there still needs to be more changes and I'm confident
that stuff will eventually happen.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right well then talk to me about communications.
That is a group of men and women that I think are the unsung heroes and I think that we
forget that when you and I respond to a call that say it's an extrication, we get off,
we pull power units, we're operating tools, the stress is offloaded by our physical exertion.
We're outside and all the things and then we can kind of talk about it as we're putting
all the gear away and cleaning stuff up.
You have someone who's on the end of the phone and I had an amazing conversation with Beth
Bauer Sox who was one of dispatches for the Paradise Fire in California, the wildfire
that killed a huge amount of people and they're in a dispatch center.
They're sitting there.
They've got no way of knowing what the conclusion was.
They've got no physical exertion so all that is just pent up there, arguably probably going
to work when it's dark, leaving when it's dark.
So there's all these factors that really aren't discussed when it comes to our dispatches.
So coming from the field and operations, what was that kind of experience for you going
into the communication side?
So the first thing that comes to mind is working in fire alarm and dispatch and 911 as an 911
operator as well.
Fireballs, central station alarms, things that are just what happened with some frequency
during the course of a ship.
One in the morning comes and things have quieted down somewhat and then you get into this,
you get into this lull and then every terminal lights up at once.
And while you're on and while the other operators are on, you see more calls mounting.
You know it's coming and it's going to be a fire or it's going to be a tech rescue
of some sort.
The amount of adrenaline and control chaos that goes on in that room during these incidents
and people yelling at each other to make sure we don't miss something.
After it all winds down, it's difficult to wind down.
So a lot of food was a thing that we called the dispatcher spread.
I remember being in my first two years, I put on my 25 pounds because sweets, you'd
be so worked up still over being engaged in an incident like that, that you needed something.
So that was problematic.
I like how you framed it that dispatchers and 911 operators are kind of, I feel like
there have been times when it felt like it was an afterthought, but I feel like on our
job relative to the Boston Fire Department, that's kind of been amplified and brought
forward.
We had the IAFFF has done a good job of bringing the peer support course to our membership,
be it communications or fire suppression, even like civilian employees.
I feel like people are more aware than they were in the past about the type of stress
that the dispatchers and 911 operators deal with.
Being an employee assistance program counselor and having been in there, I can help people
in there.
I feel like there's a willingness of people to speak or seek assistance.
Now that they know that someone who was in that room is on the peer support EAP side,
they know that I get it.
I feel like the difficulty of their position and some of the things they deal with or difficulties
they deal with, it's being looked at and when they need help, we jump right to it.
Talk to me then about the role you hold now.
What is it?
You've obviously got this lived experience, you've got multiple roles within the fire
service.
What led you into the role and then what is the job description of your title specifically?
It was about three and a half years ago.
The boss at EAP at the time reached out to me and he knew I was in recovery for a long
time and being in recovery, I'd helped people outside of the job getting into treatment
and things like that.
I think he felt like I would be an asset in being able to do that in our environment,
on the job.
I came down to the employee assistance program unit and immediately went into school to get
the certifications, all that stuff.
I feel like having been a firefighter before and been a dispatcher, I sat in a spot that
I could help both divisions out.
I think I spoke to this somehow earlier in a way.
It seems to be more receptivity or willingness for members to come forward and seek help
where in the past, it was like, suck it up, drive on, don't say shit.
I feel like that is really becoming a thing, going the way of the dinosaurs in this day
and age.
I feel like more people are willing to reach out and seek help.
I think I'm glad to see that going away and people taking advantage of seeking help and
knowing that it's confidential and knowing that it won't be held against them on the
job.
Talk to me about the resources available.
When I hear EAP, more often than not on this show with all the hundreds of stories I've
heard now, EAP is actually a negative.
They've mustered this courage to finally ask for help.
They're given a piece of paper with 10 phone numbers on.
They call, three of them are out of service, another two can't see them for six months.
One of them is a child psychologist.
They sit in front of another one who then bursts into tears and says they can't help
them and they leave.
This is obviously the worst case, which I've heard numerous, numerous times.
Obviously, they're a way of getting a list of culturally competent clinicians, ideally
even without the barrier of money if people are actually employing their own clinicians.
I think that's the problem is that we've been talking about, oh, let's remove the stigma,
but we haven't addressed how do we get from person struggling to person healthy with this
increasingly immense toolbox that's actually available.
What is the model that you use in Boston?
I think our leadership is pretty progressive.
My boss has a really progressive vision with this.
Having the firehouses, speaking with members, putting stuff out over department mail, having
Zoom groups, sort of like engaging the community before things get problematic.
I think one of the things we try to invite the members to ponder or consider is it's
far better to come to us and get the help that's available.
Like you had mentioned, Toolbox, you had mentioned, we have a vast network of resources at our
disposal.
We're very, very fortunate.
It's much better to come to us than be on the floor with the command staff and be in
a gym.
I think we're kind of in a unique position where we're not aligned with the command staff
or the union.
We are union members, obviously, but we have to maintain confidentiality and some distance
from both so when people do come forward, they don't feel like it's going to get back
to one or the other.
I think there's a right now, and this has just been my direct experience, there's more
faith in the EAP probably than I've seen in my career being on the job.
I think what we're trying to do is stay engaged with the membership through classes, Zoom
classes.
For example, some of our members have children who are on the spectrum of autism, neurodivergency,
and we offer Zoom classes to them for people to communicate and find resources so people
can form community and help each other.
And we've set up mindfulness meditation Zoom classes too.
So when we're communicating through, whether it's setting up mindfulness stuff, setting
up stuff for families who are dealing with neurodivergency or autism, children on the
spectrum, people working with each other, setting up, working with outside, there's
a really good struggle well.
I don't know if you've heard of struggle well.
Many times, yeah, from both of us.
So we offer our members struggle well so that they can speak to other members about wellness,
about fitness.
And so when we're doing all this stuff and we're engaged in our community, when stuff
gets problematic or they need to reach out to us, they've already connected with us.
It's like we're not isolated in some office and they've never spoken to us at all.
They see us, they know we're engaged.
We're going into the firehouses reminding people, hey, we're here, dropping our paperwork
dropping off resources.
They don't necessarily have to go through us either.
If they want to do resources on their own, that's all well good as long as they get to
help.
What about financially?
Because again, a lot of people that they're looking for these counselors, they don't take
insurance.
Some of them are $150, $200 a session.
And so now money becomes an issue as well, another barrier to entry.
Have you been able to bring people in network or kind of reduce that barrier so people can
actually get the help that they need?
So glad you brought this up.
Our members typically have good insurance to be able to get plugged into these resources.
However, their family members will work with them and some of them don't.
So that's when we have to get people enrolled in Mass Health, which is a health care service
used by the state of Massachusetts and there's different tiers.
Some substance abuse treatment centers, mental health places, fortunately, occasionally
we'll scholarship people in.
So we have ways of getting our community into the resources like the fire service, like
to all departments, like they have the good, they typically have the insurance to be able
to get plugged in.
But the family members, we get some difficulty with that and we find ways to work through
it and get them resources.
And what also happens is people outside the fire service will use us too because it's
their way of thinking that they're the fire department once they call, you know, people
are going to like want to help them.
And there's truth in that.
So our way of thinking is help anyone we can and try to mitigate any difficulty with, you
know, getting people access to treatment.
There's a really good foundation in Boston, the Gavin Foundation, and they have substance
abuse treatment centers and sober houses.
And we work with them to help people that might not have the financial will with all
to get treatment.
And they've been very good about helping people out.
I think this is another topic that we really need to take a step back and think about.
You have, of course, some people that slip through the net, they come through already
with a lot of problems.
You ask, how was that person when they were in probation?
Oh, they were they were an asshole.
Okay, that's that's a problem, child.
But I'm not talking about that.
The number of people that 10, 15, 20 years into their career now, you know, there's behavior
problems, there's anger problems, there's drinking, there's, you know, whatever it is.
And they're terminated rather than going, well, how was this person five, 10, 15 years
ago?
Oh, God, they were one of the best firefighters that we ever had.
Well, then where's the compassion?
Clearly it is the job that's contributing to this downward spiral.
We owe it to that person to put them into, like you said, addiction counseling.
And, you know, of course, take them off the rig.
They can't be on if they're having these issues, but give them the time the same way as if
they broke their femur, you know, to get to get back on track.
But I find that, you know, that's still behind the the eight ball when it comes to a lot
of these conversations, and they're still firing at DUIs and all these things rather
than going, okay, you know, what is the underlying problem here?
What are we missing?
And I think that person wasn't always like this, and it's happened during that time in
our department.
Relative to the Boston Fire Department, the command staff and the job historically, since
the inception of EAP around 1982, I feel like they've always held a lot of space for getting
people the help they need.
And now, particularly now, there's a desire to however we can help this person, we should.
And that's not to say that there haven't been contentious cases of people being terminated
and stuff like that in the past.
I'm not trying to say that, of course, things like that have happened.
But moreover, like, for the most part, it's been my direct experience that that on our
job, when we get the people the help they need, and that's been the culture.
And I feel like that our department was, along with Chicago, was pretty much the beginning
of EAP's on-fight departments in the US.
So as time's gone on, there's been more and more open-mindedness and compassion.
That's a very, very skillful word to use to speak to it.
Because this job, as you know, there's a lot of stress and difficulty with it.
And people use maladaptive ways to deal with that.
And when that happens, if we can get them plugged into the resources that can show them
that there's skillful ways to deal with the stress of this job, then they'll be better
off moving forward.
100%.
And I've said this a lot recently.
I think what we need to do is put the hope into the mental health conversation that when
you have gone through, just like you in this conversation, the other side of your sobriety,
now who you are, teaching meditation and mindfulness and ahead of the EAP program, and that came
from your struggles.
So that post-traumatic growth, that resilience that is forged by working through that trauma,
needs to be the messaging.
That if you just terminate someone, then you're missing an opportunity to get that person
not back on their feet, but even stronger.
And so many people that have come on here that have got to that point, then they become
a beacon of light for others.
And others come out the shadows saying, I was hurrying.
How did you do this?
I've been going through this.
I can't get myself out.
And then that not only helps that person now that's come to them, but it's a kind of self-licking
ice cream as it were, because that ability to help others is healing for the individual
that's going through their own recovery journey as well.
Yeah.
Just point of clarification.
I'm a member of the EAP.
My boss is Brian Neat.
And I agree with you that when people get vulnerable or amplify recovering or behavioral
health or wellness, there's a strength in vulnerability.
And instead of excoriating or vilifying people when they've had problematic behavior, it's
more skillful to have a compassionate lean on it and try to get people help.
If you look at the fire service, the whole idea is predicated on helping people.
So why not help our own people?
100%.
Well, I want to be mindful of your time.
I've got some closing questions if you've got time for those.
I do.
Brilliant.
The next one I'd love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
So I feel like one of the greatest books I've ever read, and it's from Tara Brock, Radical
Acceptance is a wonderful book, and that's just a brief synopsis on that.
It's about saying yes to the life that's here, pleasant, unpleasant, and no swirling.
Just having, accepting that we're feeling beings and that moods, thoughts, sensations,
and things are always changing.
And I feel like flow has been mentioned a couple of times in our conversation.
When we flow with experience instead of contesting it, I feel like it's more skillful and Tara
Brock does a really good job of eliminating that and explaining it, not in an esoteric
way, but just in a really basic, straightforward way.
Beautiful.
What about films and or documentaries?
Wow, films and documentaries.
I really feel like the documentary about Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, is
really, really good.
I believe that's on Amazon Prime.
That's something that comes to mind right away.
Yeah, I watched that too.
It was amazing.
Yeah, it's good.
All right.
Well, the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associate professions of the
world?
Yeah, knock on no one.
I got to get him back on.
We actually talked about it, but he likes doing it in person, so I got to get him back
on.
Oh, he's already been on?
Yeah, yeah.
I had him on.
It's been God, I think about three years now, something like that, but he came to the house.
It was awesome, but I need to get him back on.
There's so much more to discuss.
Well, he retired.
Yeah.
So he'll be a lot more.
I think he's gone back in, is he or is he retired again now?
I think he went into law enforcement, but maybe he stopped that for the second time.
I forget, but yeah.
You know who might be good?
James is Daniel O'Connor from House of Pain might be good.
I had Danny on as well.
Okay.
And Josh Stewart Shore from Boston, he's been on as well.
Okay.
Yeah, I'm thinking of those guys straight away.
I can't really think of anyone that comes to mind immediately.
Yeah.
Well, let me know if you do, but yeah, actually I'm actually running a marathon in Tulsa and
I know that Danny's got the outsider's house there, so I'm hoping while I'm over there,
I can go visit the house.
Oh, check out the museum.
Yeah, I wanted to do that because I love the book by S.E. Hinton and then the movie by
Francis Ford Goldblatt.
That movie gives this American cinematic like perfection.
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, we've been kind of talking about this for part of the conversation, but what do
you do to decompress?
Again, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but it's just meditation.
I try to meditate at least once a day, sometimes twice.
Listening to music will help me decompress too.
Just like sitting in the living room listening to a good, spending a good record.
Lately, I've been listening to Hot Water Music, this new album Vowels, which is incredible.
So that will help me decompress, going for walks with my girlfriend is really helpful
too because that's a mindful activity.
So I've been doing a lot of walking and it feels like a skillful means to, obviously
for fitness, cardiovascular fitness, but just kind of like to decompress and just enjoy
the beauty of nature too.
100%.
I walk my dog twice a day and I always leave my phone in the house.
So that's like 30, 40 minutes each time of just me and my German shepherd.
She doesn't speak English, so we have to be quiet inside, moving meditation.
All right.
So then the very last question, if people want to find you online, where are the best
places?
I have an Instagram site.
It's Dharma practice.
So if they just put Dharma practice in there, they would find it.
My name's underneath it.
Michael Mulcovy.
Beautiful.
Well, Michael, I want to say thank you so much.
We've covered a bunch of topics.
Obviously when you go in and you're like, oh, we're going to talk about rock music all
the time.
Like I said, the rock and roll lifestyle, but this is what I love is these are things
that human beings do.
What actually happened is obviously this very spiritual journey of recovery and all the
different roles that you've held in a firefighter's uniform and bunker gear.
And now I would argue as a force multiplier, helping the rescuer, helping the firefighters.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today.
All right, James.
Thanks for having me on.
I appreciate it.
And I look forward to listening to it back.
And you know, really grateful to have been able to been a service and just talk about
my direct experience.