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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.

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In an effort to give back, Thorne is now offering you an ongoing 35% off each and every one

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Now Thorn is the official supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic, the Human Performance

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I myself have used them for several years and that is why I brought them on as a sponsor.

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Some of my favorite products they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their Whey Protein,

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the Super EPA and then most recently, Cynaquil.

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As a firefighter, a stuntman and a martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma

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and sleep deprivation and Cynaquil is their latest brain health supplement.

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Click on sign in and then create a new account.

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You will see the opportunity to register as a first responder or member of military.

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When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX.

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You'll simply choose a profession, provide one piece of documentation and then you are

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verified for life.

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From that point onwards, you will continue to receive 35% off through Thorn.

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Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10,

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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This episode is sponsored by 511, a company that I've used for well over a decade and

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continue to use to this day.

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And 511 is offering you guys, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, a discount

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on every purchase you make with them.

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Before we get to that code, I want to highlight a couple of products that again I personally

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use today.

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One of the most impressive products they just released is their Rush Backpack 2.0.

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Now for many of you, whether you're going to the fire station, the police station, whether

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you're traveling with your family, whether you're taking training courses, we have to

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fly, we have to drive, we have to take trains.

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And I have to say I own multiple backpacks, many of 511's different ones, but as far as

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a daypack, this one was the most impressive.

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There are so many different compartments.

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The way it sits on your back is incredibly comfortable.

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If you are a concealed carry person, there's also a spot for a weapon.

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So they've thought of multiple, multiple things that a man or woman would have to do on a

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daily basis.

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That is in addition to all of the products that I talk about a lot, their uniforms fit

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for men or fit for women in the first responder professions.

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The footwear that they offer, whether it's the Norris sneaker or the Atlas system that

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is designed for foot health and therefore knees and back and hips and shoulders and

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neck.

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As a civilian, I live in a lot of their clothes as well.

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Their jeans stretch, you can actually squat down in them.

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We live in Florida here, so I wear a lot of their shorts, which again, very, very lightweight

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material you can get it wet and it will dry almost immediately.

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And then moving to the fitness and tactical space, I used to have just a regular weight

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vest.

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Recently, I switched to a 511 vest and actually bought ballistic plates as well.

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My thinking was simply, if I'm going to have a vest, why not have one that protects me

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as well?

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And that tack vest is trusted by law enforcement all around the country.

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So I mentioned they were going to offer you a discount code.

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So if you go to 511tactical.com and enter the code SHIELD15, S-H-I-E-L-D-1-5, you will

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get 15% off not just that one purchase, but every time you visit their store.

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If you want to learn more about 511, their mission, their products, then listen to episode

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338 of the Behind the Shield podcast with the CEO and founder, Francisco Morales.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show Larry Doyle.

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Now Larry served two tours as a Marine during Vietnam before transitioning out and entering

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into the world of journalism, ultimately becoming one of the most respected figures in his profession.

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So we discuss a host of topics from his Vietnam experience, his journey into journalism, interviewing

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President Nelson Mandela the day after he was released from Robben Island, his own perception

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of the devolution of mainstream media and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier

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for others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 700 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Larry Doyle.

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Enjoy.

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Well Larry, I want to start by saying firstly thank you for welcoming me to your beautiful

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home here on Sanibel Island.

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I've never been on this side of Florida before and it's absolutely stunning.

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So thank you first.

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It's the antithesis of the East Coast of Florida.

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But sometimes I think the greatest difference between the coast is there's not much of a

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pulse here.

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Yeah, that's why I love, you know, Crescent Beach, South of San Augustine.

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So I love that as a real strong pulse there.

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So yeah, so as we're recording this, there is a potentially a hurricane bearing down

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on us.

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So just a little backstory there.

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So I want to thank Mel first, Melvin Downs, former SAS special operator who was on the

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show as well.

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Just as an icebreaker, how do you know Mel?

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Well once the war in Iraq began, CBS News, the organization I worked for, as well as

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most of the major Western news organizations finally got hip to the fact that we're putting

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our people in dangerous places.

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What can we do to help them?

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CBS reached out and contracted with an outfit called Pilgrims.

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It's a British security company.

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Remarkable for the fact that its staff members were all former British special air service

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people, SAS people, members of the regiment, as they always reminded me.

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And I'll tell you, they were a remarkable group.

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I mean, they were schooled not only in survival techniques, protection techniques, but one

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member of the team was always a well accomplished medic, which I mean, I thought, and I thought

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that person was the most important member of the team.

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Mel had expertise in both security and medicine.

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So we became very good friends because he was a very reliable guy.

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I mean, his decisions were made after he reviewed an accumulation of the facts.

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I mean, and often I would have discussions with the security team acknowledging the fact

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that we as journalists were often going to be in conflict with their security concerns.

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In other words, I would say, well, no, I want to go to Sadr city in Baghdad because, and

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the security team would say, well, you know, that's a no-go zone.

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I said, well, no go for you, but it's must go for me.

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So we would work some plan out and usually, you know, take a couple of days to work out

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a plan that we could both achieve our goals.

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And yeah, we got into Sadr city.

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We were escorted by members of the mighty Saudi, Sadr army.

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Our security people had to leave us at the gateway to Sadr city, but they knew where

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we were.

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We had arrangements at every hour.

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We would make a call.

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We had a code word.

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If we use that, that meant we were in trouble.

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At that point, the security, our security guys, Mel and his team would alert the nearest

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quick reaction force the Americans had in the neighborhood and see what they could do

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to give us a head.

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So I mean, without a doubt and without exaggeration either, I would have to say that Mel on a

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number of occasions saved our lives and certainly gave us excellent advice how to keep safe.

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I owe him big time.

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Well, it's so good to hear.

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I mean, this cross pollination between all these amazing people that come on this podcast.

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And at the end, I'll ask you the same thing.

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I asked, who would you recommend as a guest?

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And you were the person, you know, he suggested and obviously the feeling was completely mutual

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from him as well.

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I know that you obviously spent your career in journalism.

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You're extremely well respected.

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And there's another kind of side conversation there as we talked about on the phone the

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other day regarding modern journalism.

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But I would love to paint the picture because I know you were in the military before you

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ever even entered that field.

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So starting at the very beginning, tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit

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about your family dynamic, what your parents did and how many siblings.

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I was born right in the middle of New York City in the borough called the Bronx.

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Grew up there in my early years and then I guess I was about 10 or 11.

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The family moved north of the city to an area called Westchester County, cheek by jowl to

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New York City, but often referred to as, oh, they're moving upstate.

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And even though we were living upstate, I went back to the city for high school.

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So I spent four years of high school in the city.

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After that went off to college.

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While I was in college, a thing called ROTC, Reserve Officers Training Corps, was a mandatory

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class.

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I thought it was a horrid waste of time because it was one hour of silly drills every week

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and two hours of classroom.

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Well, along came a Marine recruiter to the campus.

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This is in 1961.

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And he was offering a program called the PLC program, Platoon Leaders Corps, where you

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gave up your summer vacations and you went to Quantico, Virginia to the Marine Training

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Base there.

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And if you signed up for the PLC program, you gave up a substantial part of your summers,

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but you also didn't have to take ROTC.

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So you did it to get out of ROTC.

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So I jumped at that because remember, this is 61.

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The world is pretty much at peace.

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So I envisioned getting out of college in 1965, freshly commissioned as a second lieutenant

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in the Marine Corps, spiffy uniform in pretty good shape probably, and being assigned to

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guarding the embassy in Paris.

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I mean, I really thought that was my future.

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Well, things changed.

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So I wound up spending some time overseas, a little bit more than two years, where I

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learned a lot.

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And when I came back, like a lot of veterans, I was confused.

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I was unhappy with the reception toward veterans in this country.

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I understood the frustrations and the quibbles about the war and its morality, et cetera.

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But I graduated from college as an English major.

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What do you do with that?

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Not so much.

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But I said, what to do?

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Well, at that point, there was a government program called the GI Bill, where the government

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would give you assistance to pursue education.

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So I said, well, you know, I've got nothing on my plate.

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What the hell?

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I'll take a chance.

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I'll see if I qualify.

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I did.

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And off I went to graduate school.

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And while in graduate school, I was in a class called Communication Arts.

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It was like a journalism class.

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It was a PR class.

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But there were other people in my class who had jobs at the local television station in

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town, which was South Bend, Indiana.

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And chatting them up, they said, you know, you ought to go down and see if there's, you

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know, they're always, they hire a lot of us.

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So I went down and I got a job there.

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It was a combination radio television station.

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It was an AM and FM radio station, a TV station, and it was owned by a newspaper.

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So my original job there was at six o'clock, I would read a 15 minute newscast on the AM

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station.

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At eight o'clock, between eight and nine, I would host a classical music hour.

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And at 10 o'clock, this is central time, I was the sports reporter on that news show.

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I mean, I knew nothing about classical music, had no interest in classical music, but I

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learned very quickly how to read from the back of the album covers and say, Philadelphia

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Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Eugene Ormandy.

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First violin, James Gearing.

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So some of the people who were veterans at the TV station told me after about a year,

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you know, they heard there was a job at CBS News in Washington.

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I said, well, tell me about it.

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They told me about it.

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And I applied.

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CBS took me to Washington.

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I did an interview with them and they hired me on what they call the Washington Assignment

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Desk, which is a, you know, it's an editorial slash clerical position, but important.

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It gets the day started, it determines the coverage of it, you know.

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And after that, I just moved on and was offered a job in New York as the deputy foreign editor,

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to which I said, increase in salary, move to New York.

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Why the hell, why not?

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So I got to New York and I met the foreign editor and I said, listen, I'm going to be

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perfectly honest with you.

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I don't know the capitals of half the countries of the world.

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He said, don't worry, we're all learning.

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So I did that for a year and they made me the New York Bureau Chief, which is in charge

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of the Northeast part of the United States.

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It's strictly a management job.

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I did that for a few years and a CBS show called Sunday Morning went on the air in 1979,

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anchored by a fellow named Charles Garalt, a legendary broadcaster.

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And I said, boy, that sounds like a hell of a show, a 90 minute news magazine on Sunday

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morning, slow pace, time to examine issues.

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So I went over and I talked to the executive producer there and I got hired for that show,

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a remarkable show on the air to this day, probably has won as many awards for journalism

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for CBS News than any other program it's ever put on the air other than 60 Minutes.

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Well as part of my time producing stories at Sunday morning, I made a couple of overseas

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trips, went to Lebanon, went to Central America, both places in conflict at the time.

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And I said, you know, I kind of like this being out in the field.

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So I went back to New York and I said, you know, how about I make a deal with you?

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I split my time between Sunday morning and, you know, working on the foreign side.

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They said, done deal.

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So then I started to travel rather extensively.

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And I think the other, not the other day, months ago, my sons and I were talking about

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travel and we went to a world atlas and we checked off countries and my passport has

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been stamped in 124 countries.

240
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And I'm proud to say, I think I've only been asked to leave three of them.

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Well I would love to just kind of backtrack for a second because now as people kind of

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hear through this journey so far, obviously you've got an incredible lens when it comes

243
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to journalists through all these different roles and then ultimately internationally.

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Going all the way back to that young man in ROTC, and it's funny my son's in JROTC at

245
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the moment so he's in the exact, you know, the high school version.

246
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What as a young man were you seeing as far as journalism on the beginning of the Vietnam

247
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War?

248
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So let's start with that.

249
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,720
I didn't even think about journalism at the start of the Vietnam War.

250
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,280
In my time I never saw journalists in Vietnam.

251
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I mean, you know, we were aware they were there because we heard about their reports

252
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but I never came across any.

253
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:22,840
So I, you know, I couldn't gauge their work but in conversations I had with friends and

254
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relatives back in the States, it seemed to me from what I was seeing and what they were

255
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reporting was pretty accurate.

256
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And I thought, well maybe these guys aren't so bad because I'm seeing what they're writing

257
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and I know what they're writing isn't popular in some areas but it's truth.

258
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Because it seems from conversations I've had that that was like the first conflict where

259
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we're starting to see actual, you know, as you said, what was being reported wasn't so

260
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much a kind of propaganda or downplaying but actually some of the, you know, the good,

261
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,880
the bad and the ugly of the Vietnam War.

262
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Well I mean clearly there were, I think, two disparate parts of journalism at the time.

263
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One that was getting accurate reporting from the field and the other was only too happy

264
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:30,680
to absorb the nonsense that was coming out of the Pentagon at the time and what is famously

265
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:42,800
known as the Five O'Clock Follies in Saigon, which was wartime propaganda.

266
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So it kind of, I mean, not a big bright light went off but it kind of did strike me that,

267
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you know, well, you know, maybe this journalism stuff is important because it can tell the

268
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truth.

269
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It can let people know what's going on.

270
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And then I realized as the years went by, well the only way to do that is if you, our

271
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:12,440
eyes, ears, heart and brains are there to see it.

272
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And that's when I finally, I said to myself, you know, I'm willing to sacrifice quite a

273
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:27,440
bit regarding your home life, etc. because I think it's really important to be able to

274
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go out and fairly report.

275
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And I've been involved in a number of stories that the United States government went to

276
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some lengths to push back against.

277
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And fortunately with the back of CBS, they never succeeded.

278
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,480
But those are struggles and those struggles continue today and probably they're even more

279
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:04,880
magnified today because the country is more divided now than it ever has been.

280
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:12,680
I just came from a discussion about democracy and the state of democracy in this country

281
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and a panel of 24 folks and 20 of them are pessimistic and these are smart people.

282
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I am pessimistic.

283
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:39,120
I think we're on a slide, reversible but a slide that is constantly tilting in the wrong

284
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,400
way.

285
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,440
So we discussed, I think this kind of topic on the phone a few weeks ago, me, my perspective

286
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,520
of what I see on the television now coming from England growing up with the BBC and then

287
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,920
as a thing called John Craven's News Round, which was almost like a BBC for children,

288
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,920
very kind of matter of fact, I was thinking on the drive down here, one thing I think

289
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,200
that you took away from that kind of news as well was empathy.

290
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,560
Like this is happening in this country and it's really bad and you left away with like,

291
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,760
God, those poor people, how can we help?

292
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,400
And there was a lot of fundraising and stuff that came out of that.

293
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,880
Fast forward to the last few years in America, my own personal perspective of what most people

294
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,600
are subjected to, whether it's CNN or Fox, which to me looks like the exact same blueprint

295
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:30,000
with a different colour tie, is not only the division that's driving, but literally the

296
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:36,280
screen is divided into four and four people are arguing with each other and offering opinions

297
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,920
and not journalism.

298
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:45,440
So with this lens and obviously we'll backtrack in timeline again, but as a respected and

299
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,720
awarded journalist, what is your perception of today's, I'm using air quotes, mainstream

300
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,280
media and the impact that's had on this division in this country?

301
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,520
Well I think the main problem with the media today is there's too little reporting and

302
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,560
a lot too much opinioning.

303
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:07,160
I mean, I've, you know, I have a lot of colleagues who work at CNN.

304
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,880
One of my sons works at MSNBC.

305
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:23,680
I retain a number of friends at CBS, ABC and NBC and in general, the people, and there

306
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:30,880
aren't that many of us left of my age, are not bullish on the future of journalism.

307
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:39,320
I mean, it's become as divided a pulpit as the political side.

308
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,680
And it is now, it's more political than repertorial.

309
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:51,240
I mean, I can't stand watching some of these cable shows when they have three or four people

310
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,560
because I can't understand a damn word any of them are saying.

311
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,560
Right?

312
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:02,400
I mean, blah, blah, blah, and the other one interrupts and then, oh, it's nutty.

313
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,600
And that's all it is.

314
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,600
It's sound.

315
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,980
It's what we're about now.

316
00:26:06,980 --> 00:26:10,000
Still sound, that's it.

317
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,720
Not political discourse, not common sense politically, noise, political noise.

318
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,720
That's all we're hearing.

319
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,600
Well, I want to get, I mean, there's so many great chapters of your journalistic journey,

320
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:22,760
so I definitely want to go back.

321
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:30,960
But what through this journey, I mean, I know even with CBS, you were let go and then rehired

322
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:31,960
and everything.

323
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,120
So even then there was kind of politics behind, but what are you seeing?

324
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:41,240
What has been the disassembling of journalism that you knew and loved in the 70s, 80s, 90s

325
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,320
to where we are now?

326
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,120
I think the biggest problem is there's too much.

327
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:57,960
I mean, when I started in the game, there was CBS, NBC, it's early 70s.

328
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,840
ABC was still relatively new at that time to the news game, but that was it.

329
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:11,360
And those three networks did half an hour each of national news, 6.30 Eastern time to

330
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,200
7.

331
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:21,760
The audience was 50 to 60 million people.

332
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Now the cumulative audience of those three networks is maybe 21 or 22 million people.

333
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:45,080
Back in the 70s, the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite, one show had 21 million people's

334
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,720
viewers.

335
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:58,520
And I really think that those three networks do straight news reporting between 6.30 and

336
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,240
7, but no one's watching.

337
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,680
There's just too much stuff out there.

338
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:09,840
And you know, this is a country, I'm sure you're aware, that likes to be amused.

339
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,040
It likes to be entertained.

340
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,580
That's the easy way out.

341
00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:20,100
And what's more entertaining than watching a bunch of politicians lie to each other,

342
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:26,400
walk over each other, beat each other up, contradict each other, right?

343
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,360
This is kind of funny stuff.

344
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,360
Ha ha ha.

345
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:38,600
You know, it takes an effort to listen to or read straight news, be informed, and then

346
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,800
maybe you have to make a decision.

347
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:48,960
There's just too much out there now.

348
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:56,800
And I think the too much is weighed heavily on the side of the talk fest, the opinion

349
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,900
gabs, the gab fest, blah, blah, blah.

350
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:05,340
Now with that, again, my complete white belt, layman's eyes.

351
00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:11,400
When I look at, like you said, the lengthening, the amplification of news coverage, and sadly

352
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960
it will be a school shooting, it doesn't matter the topic.

353
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,520
You can see that element of great.

354
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,240
Now we've got eyeballs, COVID is a perfect example.

355
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:31,520
I can't help but think that ultimately the kind of business model is the more click bait

356
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,680
style conversations and topics we bring on, the more eyeballs are going to be on our news

357
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,680
network, the more money we can charge for the advertising space.

358
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:46,240
Has that corporate side of things also factored into more, more, more that's diluting the

359
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,200
news?

360
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:59,040
Well, not so much in my experiences at CBS, although everything is cost out now.

361
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:08,920
I mean, when I started working at CBS, it was a corporation that had, I believe, 12

362
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,840
divisions, disparate divisions.

363
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:20,100
They own things like Sony Music, Steinway Pianos, Simon & Schuster Publishing, the New

364
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:28,920
York Yankee Baseball Team, I mean, and CBS News was a division.

365
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:38,560
And at that time, the chairman and vice chairman of CBS Corporation had an approach to the

366
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:45,480
news division of, they called it the Tiffany of the network.

367
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,960
And we were unrestrained about money.

368
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:59,120
I mean, we could do anything because they had 11 other divisions that were keeping the

369
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,880
ship afloat.

370
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,240
And it's this, you know, this crazy crowd over on West 57th Street in New York.

371
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,440
They get a lot of awards and a lot of good publicity.

372
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,840
So leave them alone.

373
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:20,960
And so, you know, I grew up in a journalistic era of absolutely being spoiled.

374
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:28,320
I mean, I don't want to be too glib about it, but truly money was not an object.

375
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:35,520
You know, it just, it wasn't considered, you know, if, oh, you need another crew?

376
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,400
Okay, well send a second crew in.

377
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,760
Oh, you need this, you need that.

378
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,080
Oh, you need to charter a plane?

379
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,200
Go ahead, charter the plane.

380
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,840
Now what was the kind of reason behind that?

381
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,400
I mean, was it truly understanding that you guys were needing the resources to get a good

382
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,760
story and tell the right story to the public?

383
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,080
There are a lot of differences.

384
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,160
The difference is at that time, the people that ran the place and basically owned the

385
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,400
place had a lot of regard for news.

386
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,400
They cared about news.

387
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,960
They thought it was important.

388
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,800
They didn't see news as an imperative moneymaker.

389
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,800
They didn't see it as a leg that would prop up the entire corporation.

390
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,960
It was something we want to be proud of, something we should do well.

391
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:25,520
We'll do it as the best we can and we'll give those people as much resource as they can,

392
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,760
you know, handle and they need.

393
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:42,560
That changed considerably, particularly in the eighties when CBS changed ownership and

394
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,520
they were purchased by a guy named Lawrence Tisch.

395
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,420
No background in broadcasting at all.

396
00:32:50,420 --> 00:32:54,480
He owned Lowe's hotels, Lowe's movie theaters and a bunch of other things and Boulevard

397
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,960
Watch, right?

398
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,080
ABC was purchased by a larger corporation, NBC too.

399
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:12,240
As soon as that was that dynamic shift between managements that were invested in news and

400
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:20,000
businesses that saw their news divisions imperative as moneymakers, everything changed.

401
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:28,320
That's when the hammer came down and the budgets were tightened and scrutinized.

402
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,480
That's when you think you saw that shift from news to entertainment as well?

403
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,680
That actually came later.

404
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:43,440
The money guys came in, I guess they came to most influence in the mid eighties, but

405
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:55,960
the advent of the cable talkers, I guess really started what in 1990 when CNN finally got

406
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,200
on the air.

407
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:09,800
Then when the other networks saw how there could be additional programming, a CNN 24

408
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,760
network, they branched out.

409
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:21,120
NBC created MSNBC, which is their cable channel.

410
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:33,040
The Fox network, they have the Fox News, Fox Nation and then they have the talk side of

411
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,320
Fox.

412
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:44,920
The managers, most of whom came from pretty influential jobs in business, began to look

413
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,520
at the industry as a business.

414
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:58,200
It was less of a necessity or a calling for those in it as it was, well, damn it, everything

415
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,400
else we do makes money.

416
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,120
Why can't this little band?

417
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,200
It'll never go back.

418
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:17,760
The purse strings are never going to be loosened.

419
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:33,000
My downfall at CBS was I had a, I don't know how to put it nicely, a discussion with the

420
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:40,600
senior management of the news division about the resources that were available to us covering

421
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:48,320
foreign not only conflicts, but foreign bureaus.

422
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,520
They had tightened things.

423
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,880
They decided they didn't need my opinion.

424
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,320
I said, that's okay.

425
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,720
I left.

426
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:13,200
They left a year left after and the new chairman of the CBS news division called me and said,

427
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,680
come back.

428
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,320
So I came back for another six or so years.

429
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,200
That was right before you moved to Florida.

430
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:24,600
Is that right after that?

431
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,920
No, it was, I left.

432
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,240
I'm not, that's not Cherica.

433
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:37,880
I was fired in February of 2010.

434
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,080
Now at that, this is a list and I didn't mind.

435
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,080
I'll tell you why.

436
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:49,600
At that time I had a contract with them that was guaranteed and I was guaranteed employment

437
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,400
until December 31st of 2010.

438
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,720
So they told me like February, whatever day I didn't have to come to work.

439
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,640
I said done deal, I call my agent.

440
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,440
I said, here's the deal.

441
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:11,320
I said, they just gave you 11 months off and they're paying you.

442
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:17,720
So that was in February and in June of 2010, we moved here.

443
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:26,760
We bought this house and gutted it and every square inch has been redone.

444
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:32,600
So we basically lived in a shell here for about six months.

445
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:33,960
It's beautiful by the way.

446
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:34,960
Gorgeous.

447
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,520
It's an interesting, if it had a pulse, it'd be great.

448
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,320
But a lot of people love the, they love it because it's quiet.

449
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,800
And you know, if we sit out here long enough, you'll see all kinds of critters walking

450
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,800
by.

451
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,200
Yeah, Florida is amazing for that.

452
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:59,920
With the kind of news that today's society is exposed to, I want to ask you a question

453
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:02,520
based on your time in Vietnam.

454
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:08,160
And the reason is the average person who doesn't deploy really gets a very polarizing view

455
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,160
of war.

456
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,840
Either it's kill them all, let God sort them out, or it's they're all baby killers.

457
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:20,660
So all that time ago when you were deployed, were there any times regardless of the politics

458
00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:26,280
that sent you overseas that you realized that there were some evil people that needed to

459
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,720
be taken care of?

460
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:38,160
I thought anyone who was trying to kill me was pretty evil.

461
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:44,880
But going back to what you said about the war and the concepts and the perceptions about

462
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:55,920
the war, I happened to look last night at a list of Vietnam movies.

463
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,560
And it's a long list and some of the names on it are well known.

464
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:10,880
Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, but so many Vietnam era films were made.

465
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:18,280
And it's remarkable because I copied down descriptive phrases of these films.

466
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280
And most of them were about veterans.

467
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,720
And here are the adjectives that were used.

468
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:38,560
Disturbed veteran, psychotic veteran, turns vigilante veteran, goes on rampage veteran,

469
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,600
goes insane veteran.

470
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:49,000
Now most of these were smaller films, but I noticed they're available on the Netflix's

471
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,560
of the world, some of them.

472
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,280
So they're still out there.

473
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,360
I mean, that is shameful.

474
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,600
Just shameful.

475
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:06,560
What was your coming, transitioning out the military experience, coming home experience?

476
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,440
I had a few people from the Vietnam era on one was Major James Capers, who's a renowned

477
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,160
Marine recon founder.

478
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,400
He was wounded and horrendous story.

479
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,080
He's there on the sidewalk.

480
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,800
I forget where they landed, but he's waiting for the transport unit to take him away.

481
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,800
And someone walks up and urinates on him.

482
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,720
And he's still near mortally wounded.

483
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,520
Another one, Rich Rice, who was a CAG member, same thing.

484
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:36,760
And so you hear, we asked these men, some signed up, many of whom, men and women, were

485
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,600
forced to go over there.

486
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,080
And then when they come back, they have this kind of reception.

487
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,660
And we wonder why there is a mental health issue in many of our veterans.

488
00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:51,240
And you compare that to some of the kind of traditions of the warrior coming home in more

489
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:52,600
tribal cultures.

490
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,180
And there's a ceremony, there's an offload, there's gratitude.

491
00:40:56,180 --> 00:40:59,880
So what did you experience yourself coming back from Vietnam?

492
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,040
Well perhaps I overprotected myself.

493
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:10,600
For quite some time, not a long time, but quite some time, I stayed close to family.

494
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:16,040
I didn't engage in public meetings that discuss the war.

495
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,520
I avoided private discussions.

496
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:30,240
I thought, going back, rehashing this, either pro or con, is not going to do me any good.

497
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,080
I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

498
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,440
No one's going to change my mind.

499
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:46,440
And I just said, maybe best for you, and this is a selfish thing, you need to step back.

500
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:54,080
Not avoid the realities, but don't put yourself in a position you have to address them, particularly

501
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,080
with someone else.

502
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:02,480
It was kind of, I want to avoid conflict.

503
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,880
And that helped me.

504
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,840
Everybody dealt with things differently.

505
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:17,120
I admire a lot of veterans I know who joined the anti-war movement.

506
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:22,600
I thought that was pretty courageous of them to go against their training and in a lot

507
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:28,720
of cases their family, et cetera, et cetera.

508
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:34,100
You know, I guess I tried to go the opposite way, a bit of isolation, because that worked

509
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:35,100
for me.

510
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:36,100
I mean, that's the whole thing.

511
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:38,080
What works?

512
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:43,280
There's no one path that is universally beneficial.

513
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,280
Absolutely.

514
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:51,040
Well, I mean, and like you said, the problem is when we hit a PTSD until recently, that

515
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:52,040
was what it was.

516
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,440
Oh my God, it's a veteran with a gun.

517
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,640
They're going to shoot up the insert, whatever.

518
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Just staying back with your Vietnam deployment for one more second, the other side of that

519
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:08,960
question that we also don't hear is were there any memorable moments of kindness and compassion?

520
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,440
I mean, I've heard so many stories of, you know, military veterinarians taking care of

521
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,360
local animals to obviously all these medical personnel that bring in men, women and children

522
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,240
of that country that are wounded.

523
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,740
There's so many kind of human altruistic stories that never ever make it to the news.

524
00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:30,800
So what about through that lens in your two years in Vietnam?

525
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:37,000
The heroes for me were the Navy corpsmen.

526
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:44,080
That's what we had, Navy corpsmen and the helicopter pilots.

527
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,320
I mean, so many of us wouldn't be here talking to you without those guys.

528
00:43:48,320 --> 00:44:00,080
I mean, I saw corpsmen do things that were incomprehensible to me and at great risk to

529
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,120
themselves.

530
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:08,400
And the guys that flew those choppers are, oh man, I don't know, you know, because, you

531
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:20,560
know, I started out after I finished the PLC program, I was accepted into Marine aviation

532
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:30,240
and I spent a few months in Pensacola, Florida, learning to fly helicopters, right?

533
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:32,440
Eighteen months of training.

534
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:41,200
Well, a couple of months in, we had what's called a liberty, you know, it's the weekend

535
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:50,160
leave and we're in town knocking down a few beers and I happened to opine.

536
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,560
What a good deal this is, huh?

537
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:58,680
We've got a three year active duty obligation and 18 months is in training.

538
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,920
And one of my mates said, no, that's not how it is.

539
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,280
I said, what are you talking about?

540
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:11,560
He said, no, no, our three years starts after the 18 months.

541
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,000
I said, what?

542
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:21,000
On Monday I went in and I said, requesting a reassignment please to ground.

543
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,920
Well, some of those Vietnam era helicopters.

544
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,840
I really wanted to fly a helicopter.

545
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:26,920
Oh, I'm sure.

546
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:27,920
I'm sure.

547
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,280
Did you ever kind of soak around to that?

548
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,320
I could get it off the ground.

549
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,880
We never, that's as far as we got.

550
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,880
Then you were.

551
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:37,880
Lift off.

552
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:43,960
Yeah, some of those Vietnam era pilots now fly flight nurses and paramedics and I've

553
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,720
heard many a story from my brethren in the fire service of these crazy, I mean, you know,

554
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,200
phenomenal, but this, this, I don't, I can't think of any other conflict.

555
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:58,600
You would develop that much skill in a helicopter than Vietnam and then to be flying with someone

556
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:03,720
and you're trying to pick someone off a mountainside or off the coast somewhere and to have that

557
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:07,600
experience, which I'm sure we're starting to lose now age wise, but that must've been

558
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,320
an amazing time for EMS, for pre-hospital medicine and search and rescue.

559
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,160
Yeah, I mean, the era of the Vietnam helicopter pilots is well past.

560
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:24,440
I mean, but what they learned and what they taught and their techniques are still used.

561
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:32,200
I remember, I mean, for a while I lived in South Africa and at one point was doing a

562
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:41,120
story about a national park there called Kruger, which has a lot of animals.

563
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:48,320
And we, we had a helicopter pilot take us around to shoot aerials.

564
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:54,520
This guy was, it was, he was a South African, but he was American military trained.

565
00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:00,800
And I'm telling you, I mean, I've never seen, I mean, this was mind boggling.

566
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,600
I mean, we came and he knew where everything in the park was.

567
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:10,680
He knew where to take us to see the elephants, to see the rhinos, to see the lions, right?

568
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:20,880
And he said, we saw a river that he took us to because that's, that's where rhinos cross.

569
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:27,200
And sure enough, they were like, you know, 15 or 20 starting to cross the river.

570
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,240
And he said, we'll go down and get a picture.

571
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:30,880
I said, okay, fine.

572
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,600
Usually we're happy.

573
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,000
The chopper tilts over, the cameraman leans out.

574
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,680
You're going to go, right?

575
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,240
This guy said, he said, watch this.

576
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:42,680
Okay.

577
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:49,160
He went down and he put the skids touching the back of one of the rhinos.

578
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,760
And I'm sitting there going, get out, get up, get up.

579
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,080
I mean, that's, and he said, I do this all the time.

580
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,480
I mean, it's, you know, this is what I've learned.

581
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:05,400
The skill was mind boggling.

582
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,880
Well, you talked about Kruger national park in South Africa, I know one of what I'm assuming

583
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:17,400
is probably one of the most memorable elements of your career was if I, my research is correct,

584
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:22,640
you interviewed Nelson Mandela the day after he got out.

585
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,160
Yes.

586
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:36,280
We had been, I was in South Africa for the dying days of the apartheid regime and the

587
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,640
release of Nelson Mandela.

588
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:46,040
So I mean, I saw the country do a complete pivot.

589
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:57,880
Nelson Mandela was probably as an impressive individual as I've ever encountered.

590
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,880
I mean, his, I was awed by his mere presence.

591
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,520
I'll tell you a funny story, not funny.

592
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:12,860
He was, he was released from Robin, Robin's Island prison, went to Cape town.

593
00:49:12,860 --> 00:49:21,000
We had negotiated with his people to do the first interview after release.

594
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:28,280
And my days aren't correct, but let's just for, for the sake of what we're doing, let's

595
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,800
say he was released on Monday.

596
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,180
Our agreement was Tuesday morning.

597
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:41,320
We would do an interview and his political group, the African national Congress told

598
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,720
us it would be in the Cape sun hotel in Cape town.

599
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:49,120
So he said, okay.

600
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,760
And they said, and here's the room you'll use.

601
00:49:52,760 --> 00:50:00,400
They had reserved, we were paying for it, but there were reserved, you know, a big room.

602
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,400
And I said, okay.

603
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,920
What time does Mr. Mandela want to do the interview?

604
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,400
He said six 30.

605
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,600
Tuesday in the morning.

606
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:12,600
Yes.

607
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:18,800
I said, with all due respect, the man has just been released 27 years in prison.

608
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,360
I said, no, no, he wants to do it at six 30.

609
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,960
And he said, you know, you, you just, you know, be in this room and be all set up and

610
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,680
be ready to turn on all your stuff at six 30.

611
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,160
Okay.

612
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,520
So we, we, we had three crews.

613
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,400
The CBS anchorman named Dan Rather was there for it.

614
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,560
It was a big deal.

615
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,880
We set up everything.

616
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:57,000
The cameraman and the technicians are adjusting the lights and about five 30, I guess, uh,

617
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,400
a door joining the suite that we're in opens.

618
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:08,280
And one of a Mandela's folks comes in and says, I guys, how you doing?

619
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:09,280
It's a no, we're good.

620
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:10,280
We'll be ready.

621
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:11,280
Okay.

622
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,480
Six 30, six 30.

623
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,480
We're ready.

624
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:14,480
Okay.

625
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:21,720
Six 30, that door opens and Nelson Mandela walks in the room.

626
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,160
I'm telling him my heart wanted to stop.

627
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:29,800
I mean, this is a man whose presence filled the room.

628
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,360
I've only met a couple of other people like that.

629
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:48,720
And I got up, walked over, introduced myself, shook Mr. Mandela's hand and sputtered out,

630
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,200
you know, six 30 in the morning.

631
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,720
I go, wasn't my idea.

632
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:53,720
You know, sorry.

633
00:51:53,720 --> 00:52:00,120
I'm Mandela kind of put his hand on my shoulders and it's okay.

634
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,240
Listen to this.

635
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:02,480
It's okay.

636
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,560
I'm on prison time.

637
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,760
I'll always be on prison time.

638
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:18,720
And of course this professional journalism went completely numb.

639
00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:19,720
So what did you see?

640
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:25,080
I mean, you were there as you said, apartheid was falling, you know, a very dark history,

641
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:32,680
I think in European colonization, excuse me, history or colonial history.

642
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,840
But obviously the back end of that wasn't a flawless transition either.

643
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,660
And you know, there was a lot of conflict there.

644
00:52:37,660 --> 00:52:42,560
What did you witness with your own eyes as far as that kind of metamorphosis that you

645
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:43,640
witnessed?

646
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,360
It was slow.

647
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:46,420
It was painful.

648
00:52:46,420 --> 00:52:48,980
It was inevitable.

649
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:57,000
But there was a South African government then run by a fellow named F.W. de Klerk that was

650
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:07,960
in power that was smart enough politically to understand their regime had to make evolutionary

651
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,560
changes or was going to come to an end in other ways.

652
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:24,760
And plus the influence of the world was leaning on the de Klerk government also.

653
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:31,960
And you know, it was inevitable.

654
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:43,640
So I left South Africa in late 92, six, seven months after Mr. Mandela had been released.

655
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:50,960
But I went back in 1994 to cover their first democratic elections.

656
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,000
And that's when it really struck me.

657
00:53:55,000 --> 00:54:06,620
I mean, it was moving to see how important democracy was to so many people who had never

658
00:54:06,620 --> 00:54:11,380
tasted it, much less learn much about it.

659
00:54:11,380 --> 00:54:12,460
It was remarkable.

660
00:54:12,460 --> 00:54:20,860
I mean, and I burst out, I admit it, I burst out in tears at one polling station because

661
00:54:20,860 --> 00:54:30,160
when we were living in Johannesburg, we had a couple of South African ladies who took care

662
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:35,800
of the house and stuff like that.

663
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,920
And I was out with one of the crews early in the morning, getting pictures of people

664
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,160
voting and coming out of the voting places.

665
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:50,920
And I ran into one of the ladies who worked in the house, broke down.

666
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,000
This woman was so proud.

667
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,980
She's late sixties, first time voting.

668
00:54:57,980 --> 00:55:03,800
She went in to vote and she came out and she showed me her hand with a stamp on it.

669
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:04,800
Remarkable.

670
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,260
I mean, it was great to see.

671
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:13,480
I watched, obviously I was a young boy then, but I watched that change.

672
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,020
And of course nothing is black and white.

673
00:55:15,020 --> 00:55:17,080
It wasn't like he was an angel his whole life.

674
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:18,080
It was there.

675
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:19,080
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly.

676
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:20,080
It was there.

677
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:21,080
Yeah.

678
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:22,080
Good metaphor.

679
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:23,500
But he wasn't an angel his whole life.

680
00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:25,460
Obviously Winnie, there was some controversy there.

681
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:30,940
But then I saw, same with Desmond Tutu, these become these incredible leaders and these

682
00:55:30,940 --> 00:55:34,520
compassionate altruistic human beings.

683
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:40,760
And then I look at today here, today in the UK, and it's not left or right.

684
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,040
Like I've been disgusted for decades now, to be honest, because I'm waiting for the

685
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,740
real middle of the road leaders that unite a country, not divide them.

686
00:55:49,740 --> 00:55:56,560
So with again, this amazing lens that you have, what was it that Nelson Mandela did

687
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,520
so differently than we're seeing, you know, year after year in the West?

688
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,800
Well, I mean, the most important thing and the obvious thing is he had the support of

689
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:05,800
the nation.

690
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:11,400
I remember South Africa was about, I don't know, 85, 90% black at the time, right?

691
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,400
He had overwhelming support.

692
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,880
You know, that's the critical component.

693
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:26,960
I mean, you know, it was legally required, politically expedient, and it had to happen

694
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:27,960
to have an election.

695
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:33,880
It's a foregone conclusion, I mean, just a question of the numbers.

696
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:44,080
So now, particularly in this country, things are so divided, you know, you can't have,

697
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:51,960
or it's almost impossible to have a leader that represents any kind of majority.

698
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:56,120
And therefore, there's always going to be blowback and pushback against anything he

699
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:57,120
does.

700
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:04,880
I think what is most lacking politically in the United States now is common sense.

701
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:12,920
I mean, here you've got a Senate, it's got 50 Republicans and 50 Democrats.

702
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:18,400
A bill comes up for a vote.

703
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,200
Fifty Democrats vote, yes, 50 Democrats, Republicans vote, no.

704
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:31,960
It doesn't matter that overall elements of that bill are beneficial to the majority of

705
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:32,960
Americans.

706
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,140
It doesn't matter.

707
00:57:34,140 --> 00:57:44,840
We are so politicized and polarized, we don't look at what's best for the nation as a whole.

708
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:51,680
We have no consensus about what's good for the people.

709
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:58,000
We are stuck in the mud, you know, with our rigid dogmas.

710
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:07,460
And just before we began this discussion, I was in another discussion about democracy

711
00:58:07,460 --> 00:58:09,600
in this country.

712
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:20,760
And one of the areas we were discussing was the how injurious has Donald Trump been to

713
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,120
democracy?

714
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:32,760
And my opinion was, you know, as an individual, I think, yeah, he put a dent in democracy.

715
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:40,680
But more important, his adherents and the people who still follow him are running for

716
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:45,420
office now as election deniers.

717
00:58:45,420 --> 00:58:52,800
There are secretaries of state in various state contests who want to change the entire

718
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,920
pattern of voting.

719
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:02,920
They want the state to be able to certify the vote regardless of what the numbers are.

720
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:08,640
I mean, this is, you know, this is not one that, you know, that old canard of one man,

721
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,320
one rule, democracy rules.

722
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,800
This is, you know, an autocratic shift in this country.

723
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,840
And I mean, I think it's wrong.

724
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:23,800
I think it puts us in desperate shape.

725
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,560
Do we get out of it?

726
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,320
Probably not in my lifetime.

727
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:35,640
Well, again, the layman observation that I've made is that the system keeps giving us the

728
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,560
same type of human being.

729
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,440
Some may hail from the Democrats, some may hail from the Republican side.

730
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:47,360
But I'm waiting for that uniter, that person who's putting the health of the nation, you

731
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:53,760
know, the happiness of the nation, the reinforcing community and altruism and mentorship and

732
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,920
all these values that I think make a nation great.

733
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,080
And when you take a step back and look at, again, I'm looking at complete white belt

734
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:06,960
lens, that ultimately it seems you have to basically be a millionaire or more to even

735
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,120
play the game.

736
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:12,680
And then you have to be willing to take money from certain organizations that will then

737
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,140
support you.

738
01:00:14,140 --> 01:00:22,080
So if you could be king for a day, what would our potential president selection system look

739
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:26,120
like versus how we have it now?

740
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:34,800
Well, I would get rid of this idea of the electoral college and I would go to a simple

741
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,440
count up all the votes the winner got the most.

742
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:45,320
I mean, our electoral process now has been some co-complicated.

743
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,000
There is no real national voting policy.

744
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,760
I mean, states change voter registration laws.

745
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,820
They do a thing called gerrymandering, you know, districts.

746
01:00:58,820 --> 01:01:03,200
So a Republican or Democrat is favored in that district.

747
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:12,880
I mean, our electoral system has become flawed because it's too complicated.

748
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:14,880
It's almost like our tax system.

749
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,520
I mean, what happened to the majority wins?

750
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:32,120
You know, you go back, say to the 2000 election, you know, Bush gore.

751
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,200
I mean, that's what it began.

752
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:47,160
And then Hillary Clinton Trump, Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote, loses the election.

753
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:53,880
Biden Trump, Biden wins the popular vote and the electoral vote.

754
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,000
The election doesn't count, it's been fixed.

755
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:03,480
I mean, even when we have an election, nobody wants to accept it.

756
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:09,400
Like right now, the Republicans you can name, I mean, you've got Trump, the Florida Governor

757
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:16,040
here to Santos, former Secretary of State, you know, Pompeo, Ted Cruz, the Senator from,

758
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:17,560
you know, and on and on.

759
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:24,880
They're probably like, if you spoke to a Republican, they would probably name eight or nine people

760
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:30,400
who would be acceptable to them as a candidate.

761
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,200
But they're quickly winnowed out.

762
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,960
And here's how they get winnowed out, which is unfortunate.

763
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:42,880
They don't get winnowed out because of their politics or their policies or what they stand

764
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:43,880
for.

765
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:48,000
They get winnowed out because they don't have the money.

766
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,100
Exactly.

767
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:53,520
So that's my point is that I think like I've made this observation with, let's say, Trump

768
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:59,160
Clinton, Biden Trump, and it's not that Trump's a common denominator, you know, pick two people

769
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,560
out of the original group.

770
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,280
I don't think most people would have picked either of those final two, whether they're

771
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,680
Democratic or Republican.

772
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,120
And so I hear so often, well, it's the lesser of two evils.

773
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:16,400
Well, out of 330 million people, should we be hearing the phrase, the lesser of two evils

774
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,000
when we get to the final two for the Democratic race?

775
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,240
I mean, excuse me, the presidential race.

776
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,160
My observation has always been who the hell would want the job?

777
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,640
Well that too, and that should change.

778
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:38,240
But I mean, you know, it's water over the dam now and it's inescapable.

779
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:40,680
Our politics are all about money.

780
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:48,960
You know, I get a daily email from a fellow here named Charlie Christ, who's running for

781
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,000
governor against the Santas, right?

782
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:58,880
And every email I get, and sometimes it's twice a day, Hi, Larry, it's Charlie.

783
01:03:58,880 --> 01:03:59,880
Oh, hi, pal.

784
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:04,040
Haven't seen you in a while, right?

785
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:05,040
It's asking for money.

786
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:09,360
You know, it's all about money.

787
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,400
Even the University of Florida, I'm still paying off my student debts and they're asking

788
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:13,400
me to donate.

789
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,400
I'm like, dude, I'm several, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

790
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,360
I'm still paying back for the exorbitant fees that you charge me.

791
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,640
And now you're acting like a nonprofit as well.

792
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:24,640
I don't think so.

793
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:25,640
Sorry.

794
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,400
You know, that's not a conversation I'm going to have.

795
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,480
You know, that student debt issue is interesting.

796
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:39,040
I mean, I think people, you know, first responders, firemen, EMT people, nurses, etc.

797
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:44,720
I think their student debt should be wiped away completely.

798
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:48,160
There's a thing in place, but I was like, oh, great, you've got to be a firefighter

799
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:51,120
for 10 years or you got to pay for 10 years.

800
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,320
But the thing is, you can't make a partial payment.

801
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,240
It's got to be a full payment.

802
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:58,080
And as a firefighter, you're struggling to make those.

803
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:02,760
And so and then ultimately, you know, the kind of degrees that we're taking, by the

804
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,080
time you get there, you've pretty much paid it off anyway.

805
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:06,560
So it's no help whatsoever.

806
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:07,660
That's right.

807
01:05:07,660 --> 01:05:10,040
And teachers, I think, should be included.

808
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,980
I mean, you know, there's a teacher shortage in this country.

809
01:05:13,980 --> 01:05:18,280
And there's always a criticism of the quality of the teachers we have.

810
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:29,480
Well, who wants to be a third grade teacher looking at 40 brats a day and knowing and

811
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,560
I owe $80,000 for the privilege of doing this?

812
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:33,560
Yeah.

813
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,640
And they're paying for their own school supplies in classrooms and they're having to get a

814
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:38,320
second job over the summer.

815
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:39,920
And yeah, I think I think it's terrible.

816
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:45,360
When you look at the education, places like Finland, they have a much deeper education

817
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,480
before you take on that role.

818
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,080
And they look at the child holistically.

819
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:53,120
Here, we do a shortcut and then we're like, well, don't worry about so much the kids.

820
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,400
Let's just work on these standardized tests.

821
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:59,360
And as long as the school looks good and we get our budget, then then we're golden.

822
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,760
And all these children slip through the cracks in the process.

823
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:07,200
Well, I want to kind of hit on one more area before we wrap up.

824
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,640
I know you ended up in the Middle East post 9-11.

825
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:15,760
So what was 9-11 through your eyes and how did that take you to Iraq and Afghanistan

826
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:16,760
after?

827
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:28,180
Line 11 to me was, I mean, I don't know how to describe the shock.

828
01:06:28,180 --> 01:06:39,440
I always felt that this country was vulnerable to attack because that's how life is.

829
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,680
I mean, you know, nobody is impregnable.

830
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,140
Nobody is perfect.

831
01:06:44,140 --> 01:06:56,160
But the shocking scale of the attack, I mean, it just said to me, holy something, we're

832
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:57,940
under attack.

833
01:06:57,940 --> 01:07:06,840
It wasn't like, oh, you know, like in London, a bus was blown up.

834
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:12,800
To me, this was like, we're back at war.

835
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:21,920
And I never really went through the angst of trying to sort out the faults or problems

836
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,760
of the intelligence agencies.

837
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,360
Why didn't they know more about this?

838
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:35,640
I mean, you and I know enough to know that no intelligence agency is perfect.

839
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:42,520
And I hate to say it, there are a lot of smart guys on the bad side.

840
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:50,240
I mean, I've said, you know, I kept telling people, you know, I started to go to the Middle

841
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:59,600
East extensively in 1990, steeped not with a lot of knowledge of the Middle East, but

842
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:01,040
came away on it.

843
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:06,520
I'd come home and people would say, oh, you know, those rag heads, those camel, I'd say,

844
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:12,080
you know, hey, dude, these are some of the smartest people I've met.

845
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,720
These are not dumb people.

846
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:20,960
Don't think that this country has an exclusive on smart.

847
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:27,960
I mean, I'll tell you how smart this country is.

848
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:34,280
As part of the earlier conversation I was having before you came, I cited a couple of

849
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:42,280
polls that had recently been taken by major legit organizations, right?

850
01:08:42,280 --> 01:09:00,320
Said 25% of the people in the poll could not name one of the three branches of government.

851
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:04,240
Right?

852
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:09,360
I mean, executive, judicial, legislative, the pillars of democracy, if you can't name

853
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,560
one of them, you don't know democracy.

854
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:24,400
And then it went on to say 50% in another poll could name any branch of the government.

855
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:29,480
This is like crazy.

856
01:09:29,480 --> 01:09:34,480
You know, and that's, you know, is that the future?

857
01:09:34,480 --> 01:09:37,520
Is that our future electorate in this country?

858
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,200
Could be.

859
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:40,200
That good.

860
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:41,200
Now, why do you think that is?

861
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:42,720
Why, why is there a disconnect between?

862
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,680
Cause I know that they do civics, but I think they're kind of taught at probably rather

863
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:51,560
than made excited.

864
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,760
The interest cultivated in the inner weavings of this country.

865
01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:00,680
Why do you think that maybe I'm making an assumption now that 1950s children would have

866
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,520
been more connected than 2022?

867
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,800
Because it's more important to learn about artificial intelligence.

868
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:14,240
It's more important to learn about social media and how to use it pro and con.

869
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:23,120
I mean, it, you know, it's a dull and boring subject to look at a bicameral legislator,

870
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,120
you know?

871
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,280
I mean, Hey, you know, what's this executive branch?

872
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:28,280
You know what?

873
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:36,680
And you know, it, we don't have enough young people who are, are interested in the nitty

874
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,160
gritty of what makes this country run.

875
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:46,080
They're interested in the nitty gritty of how they're going to get ahead.

876
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:47,920
The hell with the rest of you.

877
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:52,120
This is all about me-ism.

878
01:10:52,120 --> 01:11:00,320
Through my eyes again, looking at the, I wouldn't say it was even post-war, but I mean, as,

879
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:07,000
as the consumerism started to grow and you, you know, again, English eyes coming to America,

880
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,800
why is there two pharmacies built right next to each other?

881
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,520
Why is Kmart and Walmart right next to each other?

882
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:19,760
And so what I started seeing as I lived here longer was this, this hero worship, this,

883
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:25,920
you know, false God of monopoly, that you're the winner if you destroy everyone else versus

884
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:29,240
you look at every model around the world, you know, it's community.

885
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:31,360
Like you and I can both have a pharmacy.

886
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:35,320
Let's just build different parts of town and we'll, we'll help each other together.

887
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:41,160
So where do you think that kind of selfish element has crept into what was a very, very

888
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,040
service oriented country?

889
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:50,560
Well, some people say it's the plague of capitalism and you know, this has always been a country

890
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:56,040
where things get swallowed up.

891
01:11:56,040 --> 01:12:02,220
You know, big companies are always absorbing little companies and getting bigger.

892
01:12:02,220 --> 01:12:09,900
There are very, very rare instances, you know, where the minnow swallows the whale.

893
01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:11,200
It's always the other way around.

894
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,240
And you know, companies get, get bigger.

895
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:20,320
They try to hide their bigness by diversifying into other areas.

896
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:33,080
Like, you know, a big company will suddenly decide also to have a pharmacy as, you know,

897
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:37,440
besides selling t-shirts and jeans.

898
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:47,040
It's it's the, I mean, look, let's say kid ourselves, success, success in this country

899
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:50,160
is measured by your wallet.

900
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:54,520
The size of your wallet, the comfort in your wallet, what you can do with your wallet.

901
01:12:54,520 --> 01:13:03,920
I mean, and I think the competitive nature of the Americans gets measured in monetary

902
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:10,600
terms and success is also, it's not only bred that way, but it's measured that way.

903
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:20,400
I mean, how many people who are in big wage earners, let's call them, called successes?

904
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,320
Yeah, I mean, a lot.

905
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,280
You look at all the billionaires, that's all we hear about.

906
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:32,440
But then, you know, how much altruism and compassion and kindness is woven into, especially

907
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:35,720
their early business models, usually very little.

908
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:46,240
And you'll notice, I always take a look at relief efforts that are gathered for, I spent

909
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:52,320
a lot of time in Haiti and got involved with, you know, a couple of what I thought were

910
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:58,200
very legitimate agencies seeking aid for Haiti.

911
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:03,840
And I always thought to myself, you know, I checked these agencies out.

912
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:11,360
They were, you know, outstanding, upstart, good groups.

913
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:19,640
But 95% of their money came from me and my neighbor.

914
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:26,740
$20, $15, you know, $30.

915
01:14:26,740 --> 01:14:34,260
And I thought, with all the damn riches in this country, I mean, IBM could take one day's

916
01:14:34,260 --> 01:14:38,360
profit and rebuild a city in Haiti.

917
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:42,200
Well, I was just in Haiti, I was telling a story to someone yesterday.

918
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:47,800
I went on just a Royal Caribbean cruise and they've got this little portion called Labadee

919
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:51,840
and the comedian on the ship referred to it as fake Haiti or Jurassic Park.

920
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,980
And it's true, there was a giant, you know, electrified fence around the property.

921
01:14:55,980 --> 01:15:01,420
But what was so heartbreaking is the people were enjoying Haiti, a beautiful country.

922
01:15:01,420 --> 01:15:05,960
The Haitian people that worked for Royal Caribbean had jobs and they were sweet.

923
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:11,280
And it just goes to show that, you know, Haiti could be thriving as a tourist nation if it

924
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,760
wasn't for the corruption and maybe, you know, if we were able to give a little bit of support.

925
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:22,580
And there, as with Mexico and some of these other places, if we actually have policy and,

926
01:15:22,580 --> 01:15:26,520
for example, I think prohibition of drugs has caused so much problems in Central and

927
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:27,680
South America.

928
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,740
That's why they're leaving those countries.

929
01:15:29,740 --> 01:15:34,080
If we actually were able to reverse that and support those nations and we then become their

930
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:38,040
customers, then you would also address the immigration problem that everyone's bitching

931
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:40,600
about.

932
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:48,440
I was in a discussion about Afghanistan, about which I know a little.

933
01:15:48,440 --> 01:15:56,720
And the discussion was how much aid, this is after the Taliban takeover, how much aid

934
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,400
should be given to Afghanistan?

935
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:09,540
And I've got a number of Afghani friends, a couple of whom I actually helped leave recently.

936
01:16:09,540 --> 01:16:14,120
And I had to take the hardline views and contribute nothing.

937
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,640
What do you mean?

938
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:22,040
I said, the Taliban gets the money.

939
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:29,320
There is no distribution system outside the Taliban.

940
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,160
And isn't that a horrible truth?

941
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:37,040
There are donors lined up who want to help the Afghan people, but where do you put the

942
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:41,920
money that you know it's going to get to the end user?

943
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:48,600
Well, you were in Iraq post 9-11, you were in Afghanistan as well for a while.

944
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,280
Yeah, 2001, right.

945
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:52,800
Okay, so right when it happened then.

946
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:59,120
So with this journalistic lens that you have, we're out of both countries now.

947
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,040
The withdrawal, I think most would agree, was not ideal.

948
01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:07,920
Many people have had on here, especially from the Green Beret community, report about the

949
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:14,360
tactics of going in a year and a half, two years, breaking down the training camps, taking

950
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:19,000
out some of the key leaders, building militia and then leaving again is a resounding kind

951
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,080
of what we should have done that I'm getting from them.

952
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:26,840
What has just been your perspective, boots on the ground of those 20 years?

953
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:31,160
And what can the people listening, what are some of the takeaways that we need to learn

954
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:34,000
from this last 20 years so that we don't repeat it?

955
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,440
God forbid we go to war again.

956
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:40,240
I think the main thing to learn is don't go into a place unless you have a plan to get

957
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,520
out of it.

958
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:56,320
I mean, Afghanistan, Iraq, no exit plan, and Iraq particularly, the most God-awful planning

959
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:57,560
by the Americans.

960
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:07,360
I remember the administration of El-Pol Brummer, the viceroy.

961
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:09,380
I mean, crazy.

962
01:18:09,380 --> 01:18:17,200
They tried to revamp the Baghdad Stock Exchange, which they were rebuilding on the grounds

963
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,520
of the hotel that we were in.

964
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,200
Mel was there at the time.

965
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:27,360
Who do they put in charge of the Baghdad Stock Exchange?

966
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:28,360
An Iraqi?

967
01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:30,600
An Iraqi economist?

968
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:33,160
A European economist?

969
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:39,800
A 23-year-old American political flunky.

970
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:42,440
Stock Exchange never got off the ground.

971
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:58,080
I mean, we, I think, are very well-meaning people, and I think we occasionally get hoisted

972
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:05,460
of our own ability to solve everything, that we are just better than everyone else.

973
01:19:05,460 --> 01:19:09,800
We have an answer for anything, and damn it, you'd better go along with it because we're

974
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:11,760
the only ones with an answer.

975
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:17,200
The reason we're the only ones with an answer is we're the ones with the money.

976
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,960
But I mean, we couldn't buy success in Iraq.

977
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:26,200
We didn't buy success in Afghanistan.

978
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:38,760
From what I've seen, there is a terrible misunderstanding of the cultures of these other countries.

979
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:51,480
In Iraq, I think the Americans never understood the importance of tribalism in the Iraqi culture.

980
01:19:51,480 --> 01:19:56,360
They thought, oh, Sunni and Shia, that's the big divide.

981
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:02,260
That's the big divide, but it's clan, tribal, family.

982
01:20:02,260 --> 01:20:05,080
The divisions go on and on.

983
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:14,840
We never understood, we never grasped how widespread a society was, that there was more

984
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:20,640
than just a label, Sunni, Shia, Republican, Democrat.

985
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:21,640
No.

986
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:28,640
It was, are you an al-Takriti, an al-Baghdadi, an al-Samari?

987
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:32,280
You know, I mean, we didn't get it.

988
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:34,040
We weren't smart enough.

989
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:41,800
But God knows, if we get involved in another adventure of that size, we'd better put in

990
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:47,560
a lot of homework and we better absorb a lot of people who know what the hell they're doing.

991
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:51,160
Well, I've heard people say the same thing with Afghanistan.

992
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:53,960
There's so many small tribes in there.

993
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,400
And that's, again, a lot of the Green Beret especially report that.

994
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,960
You can't blanket say, we're going to help your nation when those people believe their

995
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:05,000
nation is just the village that they inhabit.

996
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,000
That's exactly right.

997
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:16,580
I mean, when I was in Afghanistan, we started off in, if you look at a map of Afghanistan,

998
01:21:16,580 --> 01:21:23,000
in the northeast side, there's a strip of land, a very strip of land, you know, that

999
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,360
borders on China.

1000
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:27,780
That's how far east it is, right?

1001
01:21:27,780 --> 01:21:30,720
And that's where the Northern Alliance was based.

1002
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:37,840
So we joined them there and we stayed with them for months as they advanced out along.

1003
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:44,600
And everybody thought, oh, well, the Northern Alliance, they're the guys, you know, they're

1004
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:50,920
going to overthrow and they're going to be the good guys.

1005
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:57,060
The Northern Alliance had some rudiments of some command structure.

1006
01:21:57,060 --> 01:22:06,720
But elsewhere in Afghanistan were pretty substantial, well-equipped, semi-trained armies of warlords.

1007
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,940
We never understood, you've got to reach out to them too.

1008
01:22:10,940 --> 01:22:17,960
You've got to get them on your side before you can even think about consolidating anything.

1009
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:22,520
Just absent-minded, short-sighted.

1010
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:24,480
Too complicated for us.

1011
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:25,680
Yeah.

1012
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:26,680
Well thank you for it.

1013
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,440
This is education for most of us listening because we weren't there.

1014
01:22:29,440 --> 01:22:30,440
And that's the point.

1015
01:22:30,440 --> 01:22:33,000
And you don't get these lessons through our screens at the moment.

1016
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,120
Now I want to just bring up one gentleman, then we'll go to some closing questions.

1017
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:37,560
But I think it's important.

1018
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:43,640
I've had people on here that were, you know, Afghani interpreters, Iraqi interpreters,

1019
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:47,520
Afghani commandos that, you know, were safely brought to the U.S.

1020
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:51,200
And I've had people on like Tim Kennedy and some of the other guys that were parts of

1021
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:54,960
those movements that brought some of their allies home.

1022
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:58,120
You work with the guy Anwar Abbas Lafta.

1023
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:02,340
So tell me about him because I think it's important as well for people to understand.

1024
01:23:02,340 --> 01:23:06,640
We allow again, I think the media mainly, to tar the entire nation with that brush.

1025
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:08,240
Oh, we're at war with Afghanistan.

1026
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:09,620
We're at war with Iraq.

1027
01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:15,040
When the reality is extremists in those countries are, you know, brutalizing their own people

1028
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:16,040
primarily.

1029
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:17,040
And we don't get that.

1030
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:18,960
As you said, you get the rag head and all this stuff.

1031
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:20,440
They're all bunched together.

1032
01:23:20,440 --> 01:23:25,680
So tell me about him and the heroism that he did and ultimately risking his life.

1033
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:30,640
Anwar Abbas was one of our translators.

1034
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,320
And I also call them fixers.

1035
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:40,160
He's a very, very, very nice man.

1036
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:47,420
And one of his jobs when he wasn't actually translating or out with us somewhere was to

1037
01:23:47,420 --> 01:23:59,720
watch the Arabic television stations and tell us what they were saying.

1038
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:06,320
We had a room for him and a couple of his mates set up with three or four television

1039
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:14,280
screens a ways off our newsroom.

1040
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:19,960
Noah would come into the newsroom, running into the newsroom, clapping his hands, raising

1041
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:25,440
him about the clapping his hands and yelling, breaking news.

1042
01:24:25,440 --> 01:24:28,920
And we'd say, what?

1043
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:34,760
And he would tell us what Arab channel such and such was saying.

1044
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:37,320
And I'd say, good, that's good.

1045
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:41,200
But we kind of knew that for a day or so.

1046
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:46,000
I'd say, well, the breaking news, where are you getting it?

1047
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:50,960
He said, well, that's the little sign they put at the bottom of their screen.

1048
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:56,240
I said, OK, every time you see it, yeah, come in.

1049
01:24:56,240 --> 01:25:01,280
He was a very, very nice guy.

1050
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:17,320
And we had a number of Iraqi employees who were threatened by neighbors.

1051
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:29,280
Maybe not threatened, but words of anger were directed toward them because they were working

1052
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:31,480
for us.

1053
01:25:31,480 --> 01:25:40,040
It wasn't CBS in particular, it was the Wests.

1054
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:43,720
We protected them as best we could.

1055
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:48,380
Sometimes we wouldn't let them go home at night, for instance.

1056
01:25:48,380 --> 01:25:53,560
We'd keep them in the hotel with us for a night or two.

1057
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:59,600
We didn't want them to establish any pattern, in other words.

1058
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:05,400
And Anwar went home one night.

1059
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:08,960
He got followed home.

1060
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:16,480
He was in his house with his sister, whose name is Asia, who is a good friend of mine

1061
01:26:16,480 --> 01:26:17,480
now.

1062
01:26:17,480 --> 01:26:22,080
I helped her out.

1063
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:26,840
She's in Arizona.

1064
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:38,240
And suddenly, masked guys broke through the door, accused Anwar of working with the devil.

1065
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:39,640
Anwar really couldn't deny it.

1066
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:44,680
He said, but his sister was telling him, my job is nothing.

1067
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:49,160
I don't like them, but they pay me a little.

1068
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:53,080
They took him away.

1069
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:54,080
We got nowhere.

1070
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:58,680
The Iraqi police was absolutely not interested.

1071
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:03,020
The American military couldn't be bothered.

1072
01:27:03,020 --> 01:27:07,440
We had little, if any, investigative powers.

1073
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:20,400
But I told Asia, I said, if the group that contacts you, tell them that we will pay for

1074
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:23,360
his release.

1075
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:27,960
We're happy to have him released, and we will pay you.

1076
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:30,800
We'll work out something.

1077
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:35,200
They never contacted her.

1078
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:45,280
Three days later, his body was discovered, and he'd been badly treated.

1079
01:27:45,280 --> 01:28:01,400
But Asia became a good friend of mine because I was able to wheedle CBS for some insurance

1080
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:14,920
policy money for Asia as a dependent.

1081
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:18,840
I really admired the local people that worked for us.

1082
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,160
We didn't overly pay them, believe me.

1083
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:30,380
But I think they worked for us certainly because it was a source of income that wasn't available

1084
01:28:30,380 --> 01:28:33,480
on the labor market in Iraq.

1085
01:28:33,480 --> 01:28:37,720
There just weren't enough jobs going around.

1086
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:44,240
But a lot of them actually, I like to think they admired what we were doing.

1087
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:51,280
They thought, you know, maybe what you guys do is important.

1088
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:54,960
And I thought that would be a great legacy to leave.

1089
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:56,760
That'd be okay with me.

1090
01:28:56,760 --> 01:28:57,760
Absolutely.

1091
01:28:57,760 --> 01:28:59,920
Well, just one more point.

1092
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:07,320
We talked about the kind of devolution of some elements of journalism in this country

1093
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:09,760
with this global lens that you have.

1094
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,800
I always love it when we discover that a country is doing something really well.

1095
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:16,360
Norway's prison systems, Finland's education.

1096
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:21,480
Are there any news agencies, and it could be international, that you do respect still,

1097
01:29:21,480 --> 01:29:26,440
that maybe people listening can see what journalism is supposed to look like and maybe find our

1098
01:29:26,440 --> 01:29:28,480
way back there again?

1099
01:29:28,480 --> 01:29:31,760
Easy, BBC only.

1100
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:32,760
Easy.

1101
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:37,920
I would have said the same thing, but obviously I wasn't trying to load the question.

1102
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:42,200
Well, Larry, I'm going to let you go because I know that you've got a hurricane bearing

1103
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:43,840
down and got other things you need to do.

1104
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:48,560
But I just want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and sharing

1105
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:49,560
your story.

1106
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:55,040
I mean, in this climate that we're in, I agree that there's a lot of divisiveness going on.

1107
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:59,600
And to be honored to sit down with someone who's really heralded as one of the greats

1108
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:00,600
in journalism.

1109
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:02,840
Firstly, I was nervous as hell to interview you.

1110
01:30:02,840 --> 01:30:07,240
But secondly, just to share your knowledge and your perspective, I think is invaluable.

1111
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,560
So thank you so much.

1112
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:12,840
I hope I made some sense and I was helpful to you.

1113
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:14,480
But thank you.

1114
01:30:14,480 --> 01:30:15,480
What you're doing is important.

1115
01:30:15,480 --> 01:30:29,000
And the discussion about journalism should be a never ending one.