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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show, former firefighter paramedic, union leader and the CEO of Ciento, Andrew Douglas.
Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Andrew's journey into the fire
service, some of the career calls that he responded to, his own very powerful mental
health story, how his near suicide attempt led him to create a peer support app using
technology to bring firefighters together and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So that being said, I introduce to you, Andrew Douglas.
Enjoy.
Well, Andrew, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yeah, thanks for having me, James.
It's great to finally be here.
So where on planet earth are we finding you today?
I'm in the beautiful state of Washington.
It's actually nice out for a rare occasion.
It's been raining, so it's nice to have some sun again.
Yeah, we're the opposite.
Everyone is putting out Halloween, like all the stores been at Halloween decorations already
because in Florida, we're just praying for the cooler weather.
The summers are brutal here.
So it's like the opposite of most days.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're getting getting ready to go into that like dark gloomy season.
Which is England.
So I totally understand that.
All right.
Well, I'd love to start the very beginning of your timeline.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings.
Yeah, no, I was born in Texas.
I moved when I was young, but I still claim I'm a Texan.
And I have two parents that stayed married until not too long ago and they're going through
divorce.
And I have one sister and, you know, growing up, what I've learned is that there some of
what I went through as a child, like translated into coming into the fire service.
And there's good evidence behind a lot of us that are in the fire service just go in
there as self sacrifice, you know.
So I definitely as a kid dealt with like some on my father's side, I wouldn't say neglect
as much as just like he had his own trauma carried on from a kid that like I didn't have
that like loving relationship that like I want to bring to my children today.
So yeah, it was it was kind of tough time growing up with that and not having like that
father figure that I wanted.
That is such an under discussed element of first responder and military mental health.
And it was I've talked about this a lot.
Jake Clark, the founder of Save a Warrior that really kind of opened my eyes to how much
that makes a difference.
And you know, you have struggles in your youth if you know, some people are able to process
those, some people that kind of get buried down and they rear their head later.
But if we're not talking about that portion, when it comes to a responders mental health
journey and you're like, well, Andrew, you you had that, you know, horrendous fatal wreck.
That's why you're struggling.
You're missing the P beneath the mattress, as they say.
Yeah, I think, you know, obviously, we'll get into like my struggles with mental health
and it's great that we're openly talking about this now compared to when I started my career.
I think the hard thing is like we we focus on like all the trauma that we go through
on the job, which is traumatic and it affects us.
Right.
But it's like, what's the root cause?
Like we don't really talk about the root causes.
And it starts from when you're a child.
And like, I didn't personally figure all that out until like I went to a psychedelic retreat
and it like opened my eyes of like, holy cow, like this is the root cause.
Like it's stuff from when you're a kid, you know, on the job, it revolved around the emotions
of like guilt and shame.
Like those were huge emotions that like the cause that affected me most were surrounded
by guilt and shame.
When you look back now with this mature land staying on your early life, you talked about,
you know, your dad's struggles.
What were through your eyes?
What was that environment like?
And then what were the negative impacts?
Because, you know, people always say they did the best with what they had.
So it's not a blaming thing.
But you know, as I say a lot, there's reasons, not excuses.
There's still reasons why, you know, you've got to unpack some of the stuff so that you
can heal.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's good to give some context, like and give my dad, even though we don't
really have the still the best relationship, give him some credit in that he broke, partially
broke a cycle that he had growing up.
Right.
An abusive father, alcoholic, you know, lots of violence in the house.
Like I didn't personally experience that.
Like he never laid his hands on me.
He never was mean to me.
He you know, I never really saw like super bad negative, you know, relationship issues.
Right.
It was more like nothing was happening.
Right.
So like I didn't I didn't experience like the unconditional love from like my father
and like involvement that I wanted.
And then like looking back, it's because he was struggling.
Right.
He's still struggling to this day.
And like now I have an opportunity as a father to, you know, continue.
I've had my own failures and I'm open talking about that because, you know, that's how we
grow is to like look in the mirror and say like, hey, I screwed up and I could have done
better.
And but I've broken that cycle even more.
Right.
So it's it's been a it was tough, you know, looking back of just like this, you know,
like never showing up to my events, you know, like as a kid, like that really affected me.
Like I love baseball.
Like he he got drafted for baseball.
Right.
And like I wanted him to like see me to be like that and be successful.
And like I didn't have that as a kid.
And so it's kind of funny because like that drove me like instill to this day.
Like I have this like when I put my mind to something like I'll accomplish it.
Right.
And that was like becoming a firefighter.
I mean, I remember, shoot, I was in kindergarten and I first that was the first time I went
to the fire station and like, you know, put on the gear and I was like, this is cool.
And then like when I became a teenager, a troubled teenager, I guess you could say I
had a good family friend who was a captain that like took me under his wing.
And I started showing up to his shift like every day I could, you know, and I started
doing ride alongs at like 15.
And then I was like, I'm going to be a firefighter and a paramedic.
And so then I just pursued it right after high school.
I like went into it and then had like a little gap after like volunteering before like I
actually joined full time.
It's almost every single conversation is obviously people coming on here usually, you know, have
have been through a kind of hero's journey and come out the other end and over and over
and over again, you know, when there's an absence of a father figure, a mother figure,
whatever that void is, there's a mentor.
It might be male, might be female, but there's usually someone or a couple of people that
turn that child.
And this is, I think what's missing in any conversations.
I mean, we've got these, you know, political conventions going on at the moment.
I'm not hearing talking about, you know, obesity, mental health, anything that actually matters.
You know, it's this divisive rhetoric yet again.
But when you, as they say, you know, you want to change the world, start at home, but then
you step outside your front door and you become a mentor in your community.
That's how we turn these young kids from the life of crime, from the life of addiction
or whatever it is and into first responders, military medicine, you know, whatever the
thing is.
So over and over again, I'm seeing this.
It's the people that show up that make an immense difference to our young people that
are literally at a crossroads.
Yeah.
And I kind of this is going to be an interesting analogy, but I think the fire service for
me is kind of like a gang.
Like, you know, like I didn't have that father figure, right.
Or that family life and dynamic that I was like seeking.
And I found that in the fire service.
And I say this with a grain of salt in that in like a gang, when once I started struggling,
like you know, they a gang doesn't always have your back, right.
Like they'll turn their back on you in a heartbeat.
And I'm not saying that that like fully happened.
I had a lot of people that supported me and I'm grateful for that.
At the same time, like, you know, one thing I do with my friends, like when they reach
out to me or people that aren't my friends that reach out to me and like, hey, man, I'm
struggling is I consistently follow up with them.
Like how are you doing?
Like don't need to respond to me.
I just want you to know I'm thinking about you.
Right.
Like I didn't have that.
And so so that's why I compare it like the fire service to like a gang life, because
it was that family for me.
And then eventually, like, I feel like, you know, the some people turn their back on me
and it really hurt.
And at the same time, like I have to be accountable for my actions and that like I I wasn't the
best person.
I, you know, I, I really struggled.
And I took that out on other people and it wasn't fair.
And I needed to get help earlier.
And that's that's my goal, right, is to tell people that it's OK to share our stories.
Because hopefully, like today, like my story and other viewers that that maybe can relate,
like maybe I can make an impact on somebody before they get to where I was at and end
up divorced and end up struggling with mental health for years.
You know, there's a better way forward.
And that's what I hope sharing my story will do.
Absolutely.
Well, I want to get to that support when we kind of get to that point in your story.
We are also going to talk about technology and AI in a little bit as well.
When you were at the school age, you mentioned playing baseball.
But what about the computer side?
Were you into that side of computers at that point?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, Oregon Trail.
Are you kidding me?
I remember in school playing Oregon Trail.
Yeah, I mean, I I got like fairly big into video games for a while, you know, and that
like kind of stopped once I had kids.
But now I'm kind of back into it now that I'm divorced and don't have them all the time,
unfortunately.
Yeah, no, I was big into technology.
But the interesting thing about video games that I've found is that like, you know, like
when your kids come home from school, you're like, you know, how was your day?
And like, there's better ways I can communicate to get more out of them.
But it's just like good, you know, but like when I'm playing video games with my kids,
like I can really have deep conversations and like learn more about them and like bond
in a way, which is kind of, you know, there's good things and bad things about technology.
But that's definitely something that has been really nice for me to get kind of a deeper
connection with them.
Interesting.
Yeah, there's a warrior gamer.
I have one of the guys on and they're using video games in the military space for community
and mental health, because I mean, there's some literally games and VR programs that
are making a difference, but also just being online with a bunch of veterans.
And it's the same thing.
You know, I think they get talking and they start kind of offloading the same way we would
at the cohesive fire station table.
Oh, man, I missed the fire station, the coffee table.
You know, you can solve the world's problems like, you know, you talk about political rhetoric,
like how many different sides of the aisle do we have in the firehouse and different
walks of life?
And like, I mean, you could solve the world's problems at the firehouse table.
I'm just telling you that right now.
100 percent.
All right.
Well, speaking of the firehouse table, let's walk through.
So you've done some ride alongs.
Walk me through your journey, you know, academies and how you found yourself wearing uniform
from a career perspective.
Yeah.
I mean, like I said, like early on after high school, I got into a program, kind of like
a training program where you're basically working full time for free and fell in love
with the fire service.
Spent a couple of years doing that and then realized like, hey, I'm super immature, which
I still really haven't grown up.
But I wasn't ready in my life to like make that commitment.
And so I left, just got married too young.
And then decided like, hey, I'm going to go back.
I missed it so much.
And so I went back and then my fire chief at the time, I was a volunteer again.
And he's like, you know, we did this like firefighter testing process and like, I'm
super confident that like I'm going to do super well.
And I did.
And he's like, didn't move me on.
And I'm like, what the hell?
And they pulled me aside and he's like, listen, I know you've always wanted to be a paramedic.
We want the reason why you didn't move on is we want to send you through medical school.
And I was like, holy shit, like, awesome.
So then I put in time and in medical school.
And like I said, like my, my drive like got me through it.
And you know, medical school was very stressful and a lot of fun at the same time.
And you know, I had an instructor, Mike Smith, who maybe some of your viewers have heard
of, but he unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago.
He was a huge mentor for me as like far as how like driving my medicine and like having
compassion for my patients.
And you know, he said something that like drives me to this day, especially when it
comes to like surrounding like mental health and whatnot is like, you know, you need to
be smart enough to know that you can't save everybody.
And you need to be dumb enough to think you can.
Right.
And I'm, I feel that like, I know, like, personally, like, I can't change mental health alone.
Like it's going to take an army to do it and reduce the stigma, which is really within
ourselves.
And at the same time, like I'm dumb enough to think like, I can change the world like
and make an impact on people's lives.
And like ultimately, you know, I will get into like me leaving, but like, you know,
when I left, I was lost.
And we can get that part of the story.
But really what I want to say is that like I have, I've realized like, you know, whatever
your religious beliefs are, but for me, it's like, you know, God sent me on another path
that has me in a path that I can save even more people than I would have and even better
save one of our brothers or sisters within the first responder community.
So yeah, then I got done with medic school and then did a couple years in a small department.
And you know, I wanted bigger and better things and went to a larger agency in Washington
State.
And you know, it was a great department.
Like I miss it every day.
But ultimately, I didn't take care of myself like I should.
And I was involved in, in some pretty traumatic incidents that were, you know, I always had
horrible luck.
Like the weirdest shit happened to me, you know, getting shot at guns pointed in my face,
like, you know, like train wreck on like I five, like the major highway and like, like,
how am I involved in this, like these crazy things?
And so then, yeah, I struggled to be kind of vulnerable, like with your audience, like
I had in 2019, I had a suicide attempt.
I was in a pretty bad place and I didn't know it.
And I felt like I was alone and nobody could see like, hey, I'm struggling.
And so one day, you know, obviously involved alcohol, which is a huge, we can get on that
too.
That's a huge problem.
And, you know, by by an act of God, like, you know, somehow my my friend's wife and
we know we were living together as we're building a house next door, you know, she heard me
and got my wife and and intervened and then peer support.
My brother Dave came in and made a huge impact on me and got me into the care I needed.
And then I floundered for years and, you know, it was not not the person I wanted to be like,
but I can't, you know, change the past.
I can just be accountable for for my actions and then ultimately left the fire service.
Staying on this, obviously, we're kind of jumping ahead a little bit, but while we're
on the topic of suicide again, my knowledge has just come from, you know, almost a thousand
conversations now.
I'm by no means an expert in anything.
I'm also a black cloud shit magnet, by the way, in the fire.
But one of the things that I didn't hear anyone talking about, and it really counters that
stigma that we touched on before, is the old school mentality was, you know, suicide was
cowardly and selfish.
And how could you and think about your family?
And then you interview hundreds and hundreds of people that were there.
And as I pointed out, some of them actually went through their their suicide attempts
and survived like Kevin Hines jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.
A lot of people were stopped just like you, you know, moments before in a divine intervention,
if you like.
But where I don't think there's an understanding is when you hear all of them, it seems like
their reality has been distorted.
And again, we're interested to get your take on this.
But to the point where they truly believe that they are the reason for their family's
pain.
So now you take a responder who signed on the line saying, I will die for a complete
stranger and you distort the reality through all the things, you know, sleep deprivation,
unaddressed trauma, you know, childhood trauma, you know, psych meds, alcohol, sleep deprivation,
all the perfect storm of things that then reframes it as that suicide at that moment.
It was incredibly courageous and incredibly selfless, and they must have been terrified
going through it.
So then you pour guilt and shame on the family after when it's happened.
So I from all these other people, I'm hearing that the element of burdensome through a distorted
lens, because it doesn't make sense to a healthy mind, but that's because it's a healthy mind,
is the is really the unspoken element of suicide.
Did you have that yourself?
Yeah, I mean, before that, like happened to me, like, you know, I was having like anger
outbursts flashbacks, like just crazy, you know, like, I don't mean to use the word crazy.
I was struggling.
Right.
And those around me were shaming and guilting me for the way I was acting instead of recognizing
the underlying signs and symptoms of what was going on.
You know, even my my ex wife at the time, like was she was supportive through the years.
But like during that moment was like isolated me.
Right.
Because I was crazy.
You know, she would call me crazy.
And and so finally, like, I felt like, well, you know what?
Like nobody cares about me.
Like I'm just a burden on everybody.
Like I just you know, I wasn't thinking straight.
And you know, and in that time, you know, I heard a lot of people.
Right.
And that's the hard part is that, you know, so you feel this guilt and shame, like being
a burden.
And then afterwards, you feel guilt and shame for putting people through, you know, what
what happens afterwards.
Right.
And during the event.
So, yeah, it's burdens a big thing.
Absolutely.
Well, you touched on being shot and some other things when you look back now.
And this is not a what's the worst thing you've seen, but what was some of the career calls?
I think a lot of us have been at a shooting, multiple shootings, but not actively being
shot at one of our rescues was in one of the places I worked.
So talk to me about some of the calls that stick in your mind.
Yeah, I mean, I think about early on in my career, you know, this one really sticks with
me.
My my son tried to come out at 24 weeks.
And that was a very traumatic time.
I'm a first time dad and like, you know, I know the reality as a paramedic that a 24
week kid is the chances of dying are high and the chances of lifetime disabilities is
high.
And so like that was traumatic.
And then luckily, he hung in there until like 31 or 32 weeks.
And then when he was born, he was really, really sick.
And, you know, like had to be put on a ventilator and I saw that he was super sick and like,
it was just a very traumatic experience outside of the fire service.
And I'm kind of looping that into like not too long after I that was he was born on the
29th and I was supposed to start my new, you know, full time career firefighter as a paramedic
with my first department on July 1st.
And so they gave me some time off, obviously, to deal with that.
And literally, like my first couple of shifts in, I had a paramedic student, which is I
kind of fault my officer.
And I still kind of hold some resentment towards him for putting me in that position of being
a brand new paramedic and like having a paramedic student.
Like I had no place like mentoring a paramedic student.
And so we got like toned out in the morning to a pediatric cardiac arrest.
And so we went to it and, you know, here I am as like this new medic and like, I want
to do all the skills, but like I recognize that there's like this newer paramedic in
paramedic school that needs to do skills.
And it was a premature baby who just got home that morning and my kid's still in the NICU.
And I let this medic student do an I.O. and it didn't work and nothing was going right.
And so I freaked out like after that.
And I didn't know for the longest time.
Like I knew that like, you know, there's this feeling my son's in the NICU, but like I didn't
learn until I went to my psychedelic retreat, like why I felt the way I did, because I literally
saw this call on like a third person perspective, like overseeing it.
I like relived it.
And I realized like it was the feeling of guilt in that, like, I shouldn't have let
this paramedic student do that.
And then the feeling of shame that like I couldn't like save this kid because I was
seeing my son, my son in that.
And so, yeah, that's how I started out my career and that impacted me.
And then, you know, there was a couple other like incidents there that were a big impact.
And, you know, this getting shot at is what it is.
Like that wasn't as bad.
I mean, it was memorable, but like, you know, I went on this shooting at my other department,
which I don't know if you ever watched cops, but that's where it started.
So that kind of gives you an idea of like where I worked.
And you know, this is chaotic shooting, like multiple people down.
We literally went into an active shooting scene, probably shouldn't have been there.
It was seen wasn't secured literally like these gang bangers like throw this gal in
lifeless like in my rig, like as we got there and like this dude like pulls out a gun, like
pointed at me and like to my face and like, if you don't save her, I'm going to kill you.
And like, I was like, holy shit, like, and she's crashing, you know, like pressure was
in the shitter.
And darted her both sides and luckily there's a military hospital that's a trauma center.
So I went there instead of the other trauma hospital because I had a gun pointed at me
and told I'm going to get killed.
So like that was an impactful call.
And then, you know, my, my two big bugaboos that I struggled struggled with for years
was a hanging that I went on in this guy.
I don't know if you ever watched CKY 2K back in the day, like Bam Margera and like those
guys early on before Jackass, but like one of the dudes like looked reminded me of him,
like had this like facial hair and I keep, he had like, there's paint everywhere and
like this, he stood on a paint can and his, his, his like wife was screaming and that
was right around Halloween.
And like, that's when I first noticed like symptoms of PTSD because I was trying to avoid
the Halloween store because it reminded me of this dude and he looked like a skeleton
because he was a meth addict and so that was, that bothered me for a long time.
And then what really sent me downhill was like, I was a part of an MCI on, on the freeway
in Washington of a train wreck and I was working in the treatment area and like it was horribly
ran.
We didn't have enough ambulances and there was overwhelming amounts of people and people
everywhere and I just felt like really guilty.
Like what the fuck man?
Like why is there not rigs coming?
Like I can't handle all this.
And then the one of the gals working in the treatment area, Crystal, she ended up killing
herself a year later and hung herself on, on Christmas.
And so like I remember her from paramedic school and she was really amazing to me and
so like I harbored a lot of shame and guilt that like, why didn't I reach out to her?
Is it from this call?
Like it was way more than just that, right?
But like in my own brain, like I'm making up the story of like, I should have reached
out to her.
It's my fault.
And then a year after that, it's like when I, when I had my suicide attempt.
This is what I was telling someone the other day.
Actually, I think it was, it was, I did a live Q and a on moving to a shorter firefighter
work week, the 42 hour week, which is, you know, again, you know, the horse that I flog
many, many times, but is we have these published statistics.
And you know, if you look at firefighter suicides, I mean, they're not that many.
If you look at the published ones, but Florida alone, I know we've had, I mean, something
crazy like 17 or something this year alone, it's probably even more now.
And that's only the reported ones.
You think about how many people you've seen died suddenly air quotes, you know, exactly
what that mean is suicide or an overdose, you know, most likely.
And that's one state.
You're telling me the whole country we had 70, there's no fucking way.
So this is what so heartbreaking is behind the curtain.
It's so much worse than we're pretending in the front.
And then that isn't even taken into account.
Our retirees who aren't counted at all, there's no VA for first responders.
So that's when it's really going to manifest when they, when they leave the fire service
and they've got this head full of trauma and they maybe go to an empty home because their
marriage fell apart.
You know, those are the uncounted losses as well.
So it's so sad to hear, you know, that that's yet another person that you lost.
Yeah.
I mean, I kind of want to give a plug to somebody that's been, I built a really strong relationship
with her names, Liz Polar, Elizabeth Pole, and out of Chicago PD.
And she's built a nonprofit called resilience heroes or resilient heroes.
Sorry, Liz, if I butchered that.
But like that's what she focuses on is like suicide prevention.
But then talks, she's actually a first responder and I'm butchering this again, like autopsy
specialist.
And she talks about the amount of, she'd be great to have on your show, by the way, talks
about the amount of retirees that go unreported and suicides.
And then like being on my side now, even though like I kind of feel shameful saying I'm retired,
right, because I left early.
But you know, the amount of true retirees that reach out to me now that like nobody
knows that they're reaching out and saying like, hey, I left and I'm struggling.
And I'm like, I know how you feel, feel because like, you know, our purposes first responders
is to impact lives, be a part of the firehouse culture.
And then when we leave, we lack that purpose.
Right.
And I think it's human beings, if we don't have a purpose to drive us forward, and we
don't have core values that drive us in our underlying values as human beings, like we
flounder.
Right.
And so it's, I think the retiree component is like a huge, huge impact.
And like, it's kind of cool seeing some departments, I'd like to see it go nationwide.
But they're providing peer support for their retirees.
And I think that is really important that in like my department had like coffee monthly
with retirees to kind of keep them involved.
But they're a forgotten group for sure.
100%.
Well, I want to get to the kind of downward spiral that you experienced.
But before we do just to set the stage, what was your work week in your department?
Yeah, so I worked initially like 4896.
My new department was a modified Detroit and three plus two.
And my problem, like, you know, my ex was a stay at home wife.
And you know, I made decent money, but like to like get by, I had to work overtime.
I was also like, our secretary treasurer of the union.
And so like, I'm putting in like 100 hours a week in overtime working for the union,
doing my normal shifts.
So like, but then also looking back, like my marriage was very toxic.
And like, if you know anything, what a trauma bond is, like I've learned this in therapy,
like I, you know, I might my own stuff and my own failures from the relationship, but
it was like, it was a trauma bond from what I've been through getting married young.
And so I also avoided home, right?
Like, and I feel guilty that like I wasn't the present father that I could have been.
And at the same time, like, I kind of got into like Buddhism, and it's really helped
me.
And even though I'm I still believe in God and I'm a Christian.
It it really helped me.
And so like realizing that I just need to be in the present moment and like it the past
doesn't matter.
The future doesn't matter.
Like, how can I be a good dad today?
And I still harbor that guilt, but I try to try to work through it.
That's funny.
It was just total random, but I saw a post on social media today and it was a clip from
Kung Fu Panda and it was the wise turtle and it was probably butchering now but it said,
I can't want to say but you can't change, you know, the future or the past.
He said, but the present is a gift.
That's why they call it the present.
And I was like, I like that.
That's good.
And even with the religious thing, this is what I've heard some people say, and I agree
a thousand percent who says that you have to be pigeonhole Christian.
Why can you not take a little of but you know, Buddhism or you know, whatever the the other
wisdom from other, you know, great people and great philosophies in the world and make
your own very personal one.
We do it with nutrition.
We do it with strength and conditioning.
We do it with mental health.
But all of a sudden, if you don't do it this church's way, then you're not a proper Christian.
And I that my personal thing is I call bullshit on that.
Everyone should have their own version of their own spiritual beliefs.
Totally agree.
And I think people just need to have more compassion and understanding of other people.
You know, I don't know if we'll get into this, but like I after I left the fire service,
I moved to Costa Rica.
We like literally sold everything and moved down there and like it really opened my eyes
to like a different world and like a different way of life and realizing that like I was
very judgmental before.
And I was I took a lot of things for granted that there's people around the world that
that don't have what I had.
And like releasing all of those things and having nothing, which is funny because I've
gone full circle, you know, not having things, realizing that that, you know, meeting families
that have nothing and are struggling to survive.
But they're so happy, like so much happier than Americans.
Like they they call it down there like put a Vida, which is like pure life.
And but they were happy, man.
And like it really opened my eyes that like none of this stuff that we care about in American
culture matters.
But what matters is connection and community and family, your family and families, whatever
we make it to be.
It's not like our necessarily our direct family.
But then, you know, going through like a divorce and then coming back to nothing was was difficult,
right?
Because now you're like thrown back into this American materialistic, superficial relationships.
It was it was just really hard.
You mentioned about working.
I think this is another unspoken element of the mental health crisis.
And sadly, it's being promoted because there is so much overtime available.
We are in a recruitment crisis, which, again, we fix the things that are broken about the
working conditions of a fire service.
Then all of a sudden, you'll have people in the spots and you won't have the ability to
work all this or even worse, which is what happened to me, mandatory over time for a
lot of my career.
But the busyness, you know, the guys that we call the overtime whores, you know, I would
argue that they were struggling immensely because otherwise, why are you not going to
your home to your family?
You know, and if you're in the wrong relationship, why don't you have the strength to say, OK,
we've come to the end.
We need to separate so that we can be happy.
Our kids can be happy.
But you see that over and over again, just taking more, taking more, taking more.
And so we're doing a disservice ourselves, obviously, but also these departments that
are so mismanaged is the only right word now, because overtime is absolutely essential when
a storm comes through, when a hurricane or an earthquake or whatever it is or special
events from the evenings for 10 hours.
But to use that as a staffing model over and over again, we're feeding that.
So you've got the ability to work all that over time.
You've got the willing to because you don't, you know, subconsciously don't realize that
you're running from something and staying busy to avoid it.
And then, you know, you've created sleep deprivation and now you've got the perfect storm for suicide.
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty proud.
Like my last contract we negotiated when I was on the board, we pissed off a lot of people
by maximizing 72 hours like you can't work more than 72 hours.
But like you're saying, like those those people that were there all the time, myself included
are the most broken people.
I'm telling you right now, like they are hiding from it's really easy to go into work and
hide from your emotions that you're really feeling when you're off of work.
You know, a lot of those same people I know had drinking problems and like that was their
way so they like didn't go home and drink, you know, to work.
And because he couldn't.
I mean, there's some people that unfortunately do have struggles and then they do bring it
to work.
And a lot of those people I knew that were like that were were just running and hiding
from from an underlying problem.
So you mentioned obviously the you know, the near suicide prior to that.
What were the events?
How was this manifesting in your life that was creating actions that you became guilty
and shameful about?
Yeah, I mean, I self isolated a lot, right?
Like so I isolated myself from my friends, my family.
I had like a lot of anger outbursts and like these like out of body experiences from like
reliving these calls that then I would like be crazy, I guess you could say.
Right.
And you know, I wasn't sleeping.
I would stay up all night because I was afraid to fall asleep to get some of these dreams
that were so real that like, you know, my my ex said that I would wake up screaming
or being violent in my sleep.
And so like all these things are happening and like I'm avoiding places.
I'm not doing the things I love.
And you know, like after like that attempt, right, I again, I can't I went downhill,
like took some time off work, like rushed back to work and then went downhill again.
And like, you know, here I am isolating myself and like a really impactful moment because
I was like having those thoughts again about a year later.
My my friend, which unfortunately, I kind of butchered that relationship just from not
taking care of myself.
He took me out fishing, which is what I love doing.
And like I caught like the biggest steelhead I've ever caught.
And like that like fish saved me, I say.
And so did he, because then I went to an inpatient facility.
And like, that's like when I like started to like really learn about my feelings and
like what I what I've been through and that like what I'm feeling is normal because I
was in a facility.
I didn't go to Center of Excellence, but there was all first responders there, law enforcement
and fire.
And I realized I wasn't alone and like that, like I could get better.
And I just grabbed like PTSD is like a shoulder injury, right?
Like I had shoulder surgery, got hurt on the job multiple times, multiple surgeries on
it.
And it's never the same, right?
You're never 100 percent.
But PTSD is just like an injury in that we we can heal from it.
And you're still going to have your moments of struggle and that's OK.
It's just that like it is possible to get better.
What were the tools that you started to accumulate?
I think one of the problems that in this conversation at the moment is not this specifically one,
but the mental health conversation is they the things that are offered to our veterans,
a lot of our first responders are going to be, you know, talk therapy, psych meds, maybe
EMDR if it's somewhat progressive.
But they don't realize that there's, you know, hiking retreats and equine therapy and canines
and psychedelics and ketamine and all the other things that are actually in this toolbox.
So kind of lead me through your journey of the tools that started working for you specifically.
Yeah, I'm going to just be straight up and this might piss off some therapists, but like
talk therapy doesn't work.
I mean, like I did something called like CPT, right, which is kind of talk therapy.
But you're like writing and working through trauma and stuff like that was really impactful.
But I'll be honest, I had put up all these walls when I'd be in therapy.
Once I really got talking about something, I was uncomfortable.
I would just shut down.
Like I'm out.
Like I'm not talking about this.
Like EMDR, same thing.
Once I would start to feel something, totally shut down.
Again, some kind of controversial depending on who talks about it and how they feel.
But like the only thing that like totally changed my life was psychedelics.
But I also learned like meditation, like there's other skills you have, but like those were
just to like bring you down.
Right.
But the only thing that like truly changed my life was the psychedelics and that it takes
away our ego.
Like our ego is like the thing that prevents us from getting forward in treatment.
And I think a lot of us in the first responder community have pretty big egos.
So it like wiped that out.
And like I was able to like really process things.
But it was really weird because it was all in like this third person perspective.
So like I was observing, right?
Like you talk about meditation that like, oh, observe your thoughts and like, hey, it's
okay to have that thought.
But like you need to like move on.
And like that's like, so it was almost like meditation in a way in that, that you're observing
what you're feeling and going through in the moment.
And like ever since then, like I'm not perfect.
I still struggle here and there.
But like I really have a deep understanding of the root causes of everything in my life.
I won't go into detail, but like I relived my life and I know it sounds crazy, but unless
you've done it, I can't explain it.
And like I, from a kid to where I'm at today, like I learned a lot about myself and those
root causes.
What about the actual psychedelics themselves?
Obviously we've got ayahuasca, we've got Ibogaine, we've got 5-Meo-DMT.
What was the combination that worked for you?
So I did Iboga, which is Ibogaine.
So Ibogaine is like the synthesized alkaloid of Iboga, which is an actual root from Africa.
Again, divine intervention.
I'm in Costa Rica.
You know, my ex left me and don't have my kids.
I'm sitting at home alone.
I had my, you know, again, I'll be transparent and like I had a legit overdose.
That was crazy.
And then like, you know, this guy who the first person who's ever told me that he believes
in me, he's like, you need to go to this retreat in Costa Rica.
It'll change your life.
And I was like, to help, I had nothing left.
Like I'm like, what do I have to lose?
You know?
And so I like cold turkeyed my, I do not recommend this for anybody, like go to a doctor, but
I cold turkeyed all my, my antidepressants and it was a worst month of my life.
Like, but I feel like I had to like, like go through rock bottom and like feel that,
like how horrible that felt to get to this place where I was open to like whatever it's
going to do for me.
Like I just, I just like, I, man, I'm, you're getting me all like, like I, I, I probably
prayed.
Like I said, like, you know, like whoever's out there, like I wasn't religious at this
point, just so you know, but I said like, you know, whoever's out there, like I want
to be a good person.
I want to be a good father.
And and then my life started to change and I'm still not perfect, but.
It let me down a path or a map today to, to hopefully make an impact on people's lives.
It's amazing to hear.
I mean, and again, I love your vulnerability.
That's true courage.
And I've had, you know, Navy SEALs, SAS operators and tears on here and it debunks the whole
men don't cry bullshit.
But you know, the, the psychedelics over and over again, you know, is it for every single
person though?
And do they all need to do the full Ibogaine or, you know, with psilocybin or, you know,
there's all these, these kinds of levels to it as well.
But I've got to, you know, what if actual friend of mine hands down, it saved his life.
And then ironically, I was a guest on someone's show and they said to me, Hey, there's a firefighter
and I was struggling.
Can you help?
I ended up sending him to the same place that my friend went to and day one, super resistant
to the medicine.
He was, you know, I learned this after and he was like, yeah, this is bullshit.
And day two, he had an absolute revelation and you know, this guy had actually been on
a very intelligent journey, but you know, for example, he'd done the things that we
were told would work like ketamine even, but he didn't do ketamine assisted psychotherapy.
They just stuck a needle in his arm and then walked out the door.
That's not, you know, what you're supposed to be doing.
So he thought he'd kind of checked all the boxes and was literally like, if this doesn't
work, then I'm out.
And day two, he said to me, cause I spoke to him a few days there, he said, James, including
the birth of my child and getting hired as a firefighter, that was the most powerful
experience of my entire life and completely turned his life around.
So now obviously, let me be very clear.
There's a lot of work now that, you know, is involved to carry on the healing because
you basically unlocked the door to that little box in your mind.
But if you combine that with, you know, the kind of follow through and still talking to
mentors and working through your stuff, I think this is the missing piece of the puzzle
and our insane drug prohibition laws are creating a massive barrier to entry.
Now there are very, very many places that people can go under the radar, but the fact
that this is being kept away and is stigmatized and it's the seemingly one of the most powerful,
truly life-saving medicines out there that has been used literally for thousands of years.
You know, this has to be part of the mental health conversation in first responders.
Yeah.
And, you know, like you said, it's not for everybody.
It's super intense.
Like it was, yeah, it was before it was the, I will never do it again.
It was that, it was that good and that bad.
Right.
But I think the one thing to talk about too, like we talked about like the alcohol problem,
like I'll admit, like I was drinking a lot to suppress my feelings that like I was going
through and like literally I haven't drank since September of, I'm about a year sober
coming up and like I have no desire to drink.
Like, and I've been through still a lot this last year and I still haven't touched alcohol.
And you know, like somebody that was down there with me, I mean, this is like millionaires
and like very, very successful people that were at this retreat with me.
And a lot of them had drug problems, like pill problems.
And like one of the guys I've still maintained a relationship with, like he, he, he went
cold turkey off of narcotic pills and has not touched it since.
And there's like good underlying evidence of ibogaine specifically to get people off
of narcotics.
And again, that's not something that's talked about because of that, like stigma surrounding
it.
In fact, like when I was like trying to get a job after the fire service, like I had a
video about like psychedelics, you know, like talking about it, my experience and this employer's
like, yeah, no, like you can't do that.
We're not going to hire you because of that specific thing.
And it's like the ignorance is there.
Like they don't understand, A, what I've been through as a first responder, B, the evidence
that backs what I was talking about and what I've been through.
Well, I mean, to underline the ridiculousness I just posted the other day that the FDA rejected
MDMA led psychotherapy being legalized.
This is the same FDA, FDA that approved the OxyContin, you know, erroneously that created
the opioid crisis that we know now.
So I mean, that seems like, let's be honest, like, and again, I don't mind being controversial
because like we need to be, but they don't give a shit about us.
Right.
Well, why do you think, why do you think they don't want to approve these MDMA and psychedelics?
Because I know people have gone through and like are off of antidepressants afterwards.
So it's all about money.
Like if you, that was the other thing, like moving outside of the United States, I learned
that like, no matter what political leaning you have, our country is run by money.
We're two big corporations that don't give a shit about anybody else and we just want
to make money.
And so like, that's why I think there's so much pushback on psychedelics because it's
going to get people off antidepressants.
And if you can keep somebody on antidepressants forever, big pharma, which hopefully I don't
get you canceled for this, but there's been a lot worse on here.
I trust me, but like they're, they're not going to make money.
Right.
And so I think there's just so much pushback in, in everybody in the FDA.
I'm saying this anecdotally, like I don't have any evidence, but they got to be bought
off.
Like I think about going from lidocaine to amyotarone, like how shitty is it to drop
amyotarone?
Right.
And I think I've had way more success with lidocaine than, than I ever did with amyotarone,
but I digress.
No, I think it's, it's, it's such a needed conversation.
This is what drives me crazy is here we are, you know, my opinion is that once again, we've
got to choose from the lesser of two evils out of 330 million people.
And it's the world's biggest distraction.
None of them are talking about beastie.
None of them are talking about mental health.
None of them talking about safety in our schools, all the things that actually affect Americans.
But when you look at the pandemic, which spanned both aisles, you know, that was the most beautiful
opportunity to bring the health of the nation forefront to give, you know, bolster local
farmers to make clean organic foods, to put PE programs back in schools, to put real food
back in schools and get all the soda machines out of them.
And what happened?
The polar opposite, because if you have a healthy nation, you think about, I mean, it
must be trillions that are in blood pressure meds, diabetes meds, all the gadgets and gizmos
that go with that.
I mean, it's such a huge, huge industry.
And those are the people that are lining the pockets of both sides.
As we sit here, you know, I feel like the dude in the middle of a tennis match in the
middle by the net looking left and right, going, what the fuck is going on yet again?
But here we are, you know, so there is absolutely no desire to make the nation healthier because
after COVID, if that wasn't a wake up call, then there isn't one because there was one
truth during COVID.
The healthier the person, the higher the chance of them surviving that virus.
That simple.
Yeah, no, it's, it's, um, we don't matter, man.
Like, like we all think we're important, like as individuals, like, you don't matter.
Like at the end of the day, like the only permanent thing in life is that you're going
to die.
That is truly the only permanent thing and like everything around you.
And this is what I've learned, like going through everything is like everything's meant
to change.
Right?
Like there's a, there's a book I read, like this guy named Thich Nhat Hanh, I think is
his name.
Um, and like, it was like, you know, it's like a mantra that you say every day that
I do.
And it's like, you know, um, everything around me like is meant to change.
Like my, my health is meant to change.
My, you know, family and the people I love are meant to change.
Um, you know, the only thing that, that we can control is, is our own actions.
Right.
And um, so I think in, in our world, like if more people would realize that, like, you
know, the, the important thing is like, if we can take a step forward and make the change,
like you look at the biggest movements in, in our world, um, you know, I think of Martin
Luther King Jr.
Right?
Like he was arrested, he was shamed, he was discriminated against.
Um, but he was vulnerable and made those changes and changed the world.
Um, and when we still have a lot of progress to do there, but like, you know, I think we
need to do the same thing with mental health.
Absolutely.
Well, I want to get to, you know, what you're doing now, because I think this is the, this
is the missing part of the mental health conversation is the post-traumatic growth.
You know, as you said, that doesn't mean that you're in utopia now and you never think about
the things that bothered you before, because that's complete BS, but the, the understanding
that there is a better version of you on the other side of finding your toolbox of healing
tools, the more resilient, I think that's what resilience is working through struggles.
Um, and these people become a beacon of light and you are in just in this conversation alone,
you know, your story and your vulnerability is going to resonate with people.
And some people are going to go, shit, that's, that's me.
I feel that way.
And so I think that is such an important part is this, this hope we don't have hope in PTSD.
A lot of times it's, you know, people touring and, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, I'm
living with it.
You know, it's okay.
But no, I mean, you know, here you are now you transitioned out and you've created a
tool that's going to be, you know, a force multiplier for this, this, uh, mental health
crisis.
So talk to me about, you know, what made you transition out and then was that initial transition
jarring for you?
Because you know, for a lot of us, we've got that purpose.
We've got that tribe, you know, we've got identity as a firefighter and a paramedic.
And then one day, you know, your ID doesn't work.
The bay door is closed and you're not anymore.
Yeah.
I mean, it was pretty dramatic.
You know, like I, at the very end of my career, I was like, I was so drained emotionally that
like all I had in the tank was to like make an impact when I was on shift.
Like I had to like go high isolate in my room and like not interact with my crew.
Just so I could make sure like if the tones went off, like I could, you know, perform
and, um, and I could, but like ultimately I was like, man, I'm done.
And like going back, I mean, I could change things, you know, I'd love to do things, but
again, we talk about like the, you can't change the past.
And, um, and you know, like ultimately it was just like, I'm done.
And it was jarring, like you said, because I floundered, you know, we moved to Costa
Rica and like, I, I attribute like this move was probably the best thing for me.
Um, even though I ended up getting divorced and I still struggled while I was there in
ways, um, you know, like I got into like permaculture farming and, uh, cause we had a, we bought
a farm and like being out in nature and like planting these plants and like, I would walk
around like touching the trees and like checking out the new fruits that are coming in and
like looking back, that's all mindfulness, right?
Like I had this opportunity to grow and like, um, you know, I, I didn't love myself and,
um, I learned some self-compassion through doing, you know, my experience down there.
And, um, and so then like, you know, I, uh, I came up with a crazy idea for a business
idea cause I'm trying to figure out what the fuck I want to do with my life.
And man, was I shamed.
Like even my own, you know, wife at the time was like, Oh, this is another one of your
stupid ideas.
You're going to fail.
Go get a real job.
Um, and everybody around me was like, dude, you're crazy.
Like this is stupid.
Like nobody's ever going to be into this.
And um, you know, it was like first time in my life that like, I truly believed in myself
that like, no, I feel like we can make an impact.
Cause I think about how peer support impacted my life and having my brother Dave by my side.
And, but I also understand like the stigma.
And when I say the stigma that like truly is within ourselves, like we make our own stigma,
right?
And when you do reach out for help, there's people that love you that will be there.
And, and I don't know people and they reach out to me and I still give them that compassion
and love, um, for like, Hey man, thanks for, that's really hard to reach out to somebody
and say, I'm struggling.
And like, you're not alone.
Like I've been there.
And so, you know, we started this idea that's like since evolved where, you know, we want
to try to reduce that stigma through, you know, anonymous peer support, right?
Where you, you can either reach out to your peer support team or you can anonymously reach
out to, to a peer that understands like what you've been through and, um, can be that person
that says like, Hey James, like brother, I appreciate you taking the opportunity to be
vulnerable with me.
Like I'm here for you.
You're not alone.
And then recognizing all the holes within peer support teams, right?
Like I, I joke that like we're in the gold rush of peer support because like everybody's
trying to get their team going and, um, but there's a lot of holes, James.
And um, so basically like we've made a platform for, for teams to be more efficient and effective
and, um, basically centralize all the processes.
And you know, it's, I've had to like, kind of take a step back, right?
Um, and like focusing on my own mental health, you know?
Um, but I've had like a really strong team that like totally gets what mental health
is.
Um, you know, the gal who designed it is, is a crisis social worker.
Like she's seen that side of it, but then like our developers, his dad was a Chicago
PD and like he's had his own personal, um, mental health struggles.
So like the team gets it and like, we care about the people we're serving.
And, um, the good news is like people believe in us and, um, and things are progressing
and hopefully I can get back into it and, um, get healthy.
But uh, you know, like I said, our struggles are real and you're going to continually go
through them, but it's just having people around you that care about you and knowing
that you also care about yourself that, that we can push forward through this.
What are the holes that you're seeing emerge in some of the formation of these peer support
groups?
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think, um, everybody's trying to reinvent the wheel, right?
Um, I look at like where you're at, right?
Like Miami Dade fire has like probably one of the most robust mental health programs
out there.
Um, so my objective is to like, bring people together and like make connections, right?
Of like, Hey, you know, San Francisco fire departments doing great things with vetting
their providers, right?
Let's connect them together with departments that are trying to do the same thing and,
and making those connections.
Um, so I would say like the biggest holes that like I've seen, um, revolves around communication,
like communications is the number one failure.
Um, I would say like departments aren't tracking, like, is anybody even available?
Like for this person, like nobody's tracking that.
You don't know if a peer supporter is available or not.
So if somebody reaches out, we might lose somebody through the cracks.
And ultimately, like we, you know, I, I hate the chiefs that are like data driven.
Um, but at the same time, cause these are human beings, like what, what can we, how
can we anonymously track some data and trends that we could like be upstream and bring training
forward that like can, can help people like work through their, their struggles and kind
of lead that horse to water.
Like there's other people out there that are trying to do great things and like shove all
this training in our face.
But like, I don't know if you use target solutions.
Um, I did back in the day.
Fuck.
Um, it's a needed thing, right?
Training is important, but like how many of us just checked boxes, right?
So I'm of the opinion, what we do with training is you lead the horse to water, right?
Don't force people to do things.
And if we're noticing a trend and, and relationship issues within our agency, maybe we throw out
a blog that says like, Hey, here's some great articles on relationship issues.
Or um, like you talk about a lot lately, like your, um, you know, shift schedules and lack
of sleep, like throwing that out there of like, here's healthier ways to get good sleep
and you know, stop drinking shit ton of coffee and stop drinking.
Like, you know, like bringing this stuff forward, um, that, that is where like anonymous data
can come in and make a difference.
Yeah.
With, with the shift schedule, I keep getting, you know, Oh, I need to see the data.
I need to see white papers.
And firstly, that probably means that you've looked and you haven't found it.
So there's your first sign.
But secondly, I'm all for it.
You know, you've got a new drug, for example, you got a new defibrillation level that they're
trying.
All right.
I want to see the data for that.
Why are we doing 720?
But if you want data to show, for example, that a 42 hour work week is healthier than
a 56, then you're just saying, I want to see a data because that's the words of a coward,
because that's just fucking common sense.
So now you're just putting up a deliberate barrier because you haven't got the balls
to actually, you know, look at it and go, Oh, that would be better.
And our cops work 40 hours, you know, and everyone else works 40 hours and everyone
that's working for us is falling apart mentally and physically.
So clearly we need to do something.
So that has become a nails on the chalkboard statement.
Now it's, you know, there's times where absolutely I need to see a data as appropriate.
But even with the psychedelics, you have 2000 years worth of studies in a lot of this plant
medicine.
You know, what's the latest thing now?
Mushrooms.
I've started taking mushroom tinctures.
And again, the Asian medicine has been using that for millennia.
So this is the arrogance of modern day science is yes, I want the person who's designing
the plane that I'm going to flow on fly on, excuse me, to, you know, know the data, understand
the math.
But there's a lot of things where, as I say, if I step out in front of a bus, I don't need
to study to show me that I'm going to get squashed.
You know, there's a certain point where you got to put common sense.
And if you're using that phrase, I need to see the data as an excuse to not put the fucking
work in and shame on you.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, another huge problem, um, if any chiefs watching this, I'm going
to put them on blasts is that, you know, we'll spend 10, $20,000 on, on some product that
like sits in the back corner of the training station, you know, like that isn't being used.
But like, if we can spend $5,000 on a resiliency class, um, that could impact our people, like
they're like, no, like we don't have the budget for it.
Sorry.
And I call it bullshit because like, if you, there's some data that, and I know we're
talking data that comes out like Steve Farina out of the British Columbia professional firefighters.
Yeah.
Good dude.
Um, like how expensive and on, like if somebody goes out with PTSD, like I did, which was
a duty related PTSD, how much does that cost our agencies and overtime?
How much does that cost our labor and industry programs?
Like throughout the country, like it's a lot, right?
So if we can invest five, 10, even a hundred thousand dollars in, in something and trying
to make something better and, and preventing our people from getting to that point, like
it's your, your return on investment is huge, right?
Like if, if I, I imagine my, my, you know, PTSD is cost my department in the state, like
probably close to a million dollars, I bet.
Right.
That's, that's significant.
Um, so I think we need to change our perspective on what budgets are and like, why we do things
like we need to rethink, um, mental health.
Like I respect, um, West Metro out of, out of color, Colorado is doing really good things
with mental health, that whole Colorado, um, Denver Metro is like crushing it.
Um, but they, like their number one strategic plan is, is to put mental and physical health
and wellness as their number one strategic plan.
And so I challenge any leader listening to this to like rethink what are your priorities
in, in, in, in your culture within, in your department.
I actually had Chris Macklin from South Metro on, and again, I'm talking about all the proactive
elements, you know, having strength and conditioning coaches on staff and, you know, I think mental
health counselors on staff, which is again, that is the model to actually hire someone.
And I've said this recently, you know, I went through a lot of, um, yeah, four testing because
I worked for four departments in 14 years, just cause geography took me to the West coast
and then back to the East.
And that was four psych evals, the Minnesota multifaceted personality interview MMPI, which
the, like every single person in the psychology space I've spoken to since says that is never
meant to be a standalone test for a first responder.
So that's bullshit.
Three polygraphs are lied through, um, again, smoke and mirrors, bullshit.
And so right there, just the money you waste on those two tests alone could fund, you know,
a mental health counselor.
So imagine as a, as a new guy or girl went through probation, that they had X amount
of counseling sessions.
So you get to start addressing the things that we brought into the profession.
You normalize the mental health conversation and you remove the barrier to entry because,
you know, are they in network?
Can I even afford them is a big problem too.
So you know, that's what they're doing really, really well, but what they haven't done yet
is change their work week, but I know they're in talks to do it.
So that is going to be amazing because that again, you know, sadly the elephant in the
room on cancer or mental health on testosterone depletion and all these things is sleep deprivation,
but that's the major part.
So if they're able to address that, they're going to see, you know, they're going to be
really, really progressive by that point.
Well, I mean, let's be honest.
Like if first responder agencies, specifically fire departments or followers, like nobody
wants to be the first to do something.
You know, I think of like Chicago fire department, right?
They, they have like the black and red trucks, right?
And like everybody followed that or like New York's got like black bunker gear, right?
And like, you know, everybody in our area, like started switching to black bunker gear,
right?
And I think you're going to see that with mental health as well.
Like you have people like in Florida, like you guys are super progressive people in Colorado
that are leading the way.
And it's just going to take a little while for that to spread and people will follow
suit with like some of these best practices.
Absolutely.
Well, talk to me then about Ciento.
So you've gone through this journey, you know, you're having these ideas, you're being shot
down by everyone that you thought loved you.
So walk me through the creation of this app and then, you know, let's talk about the features
that people will see there.
Yeah.
So I, I was having, I was very, when I moved to Costa Rica, I made some really close friends,
like really quickly.
But I was very open and vulnerable compared to like my friendships that I had made prior
to that of like, Hey man, I struggle.
If you see me getting like XYZ, like, please like call me out or reach out to me.
And if you notice like I'm isolating and not calling you all of a sudden, like, please
reach out to me.
And so that's where I met my co-founder Jason.
He's like the nicest Canadian ever.
That's nice, because they're all nice.
And so I was like having a really tough day and like struggling with depression.
It's like, man, I wish I could just like, you know, I wanted to go into tech after I
left the fire service.
Cause like that was the only thing I could think of.
And it's like, I'm going to make an app where I can like talk about how I feel like openly
and like then the page catches on fire and it like disappears.
It's like, that's how it all started.
And then like it evolved into like, you know, being like this community sense of anonymous
community where people can, you know, express their feelings openly and like have that shared
connection.
And then like we learned that like so many departments, like we talked about some of
the holes that these agencies have, like technology should never replace human connection.
I think what technology can do is provide rapid access to a peer support team to get
that human connection and then utilize peer support to bridge the gap until you get into
a provider where you can like really start to work through your problems.
So you know, we focus on that.
You know, there's like teams like have all different types of processes, right?
Like there's all these different systems scattered everywhere.
And so we saw like a hole there that we could fill.
And you know, so we unlike people that are doing great trying to do great things out
there, they like build something and then like force it down your throat, like by this,
you know, we said like, hey, you know, go into departments like yours, James, and like
being like, what are you struggling with?
Like what do you need?
What do you want?
And we really worked closely with agencies across the United States to like build something
that's super impactful and that actually works.
You know, I there is a firefighter is like, dude, what you guys built like two plus two.
It's like super easy, right?
Because that's what we want.
Like how much you think of like Target Solutions is complicated, right?
You have to like go do all this shit.
Like, so we've tried to make it really user friendly.
But then at the same time, recognize that like not every person wants to go on a wellness
app and like look at these videos and like why aren't you know, there's companies out
there that are already doing that, but people aren't using it.
But who is going to use it?
Right.
It's these peer support teams.
And so we're I say from like the push of a button until you're healthy, like we want
to be by your side.
And so people know that they're not alone.
So the user themselves, what will they actually be able to find on the app?
Yeah, I mean, like they have that sense of community, right?
That's where it all started.
So they'll have that they'll have, you know, the ability to connect with peer support at
the push of a button.
The functionality behind it's awesome.
And it works really effectively.
You know, something unique with us is that, you know, I got a I got a phone call at like
nine o'clock, like some of the early departments, I gave out my personal number and said, like,
hey, if you're struggling, like I'm here to listen.
I got a call at like nine o'clock and he's like, dude, I got like this relationship issue
and I don't want to divulge too much.
Right.
But the concept was like, I don't want to go talk to my peer support team about this.
The rumor mills big in my peer support team.
Can you help me?
And I was like, yeah, let me connect you.
Like I was struggling myself.
Like when I'm struggling now, I learned to say no to things and kind of push it off to
somebody else.
Like I had somebody I believed in that that had the capacity to help this individual in
realizing like the that that individual is not alone.
Like that is out there big time and not everybody trusts their own peer support team.
So give them the ability to like connect with a network of trained peer supporters that
understand what they're going through still and then can kind of lead that person to like
a higher level of care.
And talk to me about vetting the peer support.
One of the things that I've heard sadly, like more recently is, you know, in half our peer
support team members are alcoholics.
You know, so you've got people on these teams that just shouldn't be on there yet.
They haven't kind of gone through that crucible and come out the other side truly as a beacon
of light.
So how are you able to make sure that the people that are receiving these cries for
help are the right person?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's like an overarching question because you can say the same thing about providers
and culturally competent providers or whatever the fuck people want to say.
But I mean, it's not a company's.
I think the total wrong approach is to say as a company like James, you need to go see
this peer supporter because they're good or you need to go see this clinician because
we have vetted them.
So we kind of push that onto the agencies.
Like you I don't think any company should be the ones vetting individuals.
But what we need to do is to make sure people are healthy and safe and that they're having
good experiences that they can then, you know, relate that back to their agencies of like
what kind of experiences somebody going through.
So we do push that back on the agency to really make sure that they're being proactive and
vetting their team and and that they are good fits.
And like you said, there's always going to be bad apples no matter what you do.
It's just up to the agency to really, you know, get those bad apples out of there.
And are the people accessing their own peer support team or they actually able to access
other departments, peer support teams too, if they want anonymity?
Yeah, exactly.
Anonymity is huge.
Right.
And so so we it can go either way.
Right.
We want to give anything any time with mental health, we want to have all these different
nets to catch people.
And at the same time, like you as an individual should make the choice of what you need.
Right.
You know better than anybody else.
I can't tell you what you need.
So you can go either way.
You can either reach out to your own agency or other people within our network.
And that's we've had a huge buy in from other agencies.
And you know, there's I can't say out loud right now some stuff, but like there's some
big departments that like believe in what we're doing and are joining us in our mission
to to save a life ultimately.
Beautiful.
So where can people find it?
Yeah.
So we've got a new website.
I don't know when this is coming out and being aired, but we got a new website coming out.
It's called Ciento S I E N T O dot I O.
So again, this was the coined in Costa Rica.
And like we were thinking of a name and like what better word than a Spanish word for I
feel.
So that's where our company comes from.
The name Ciento is a Spanish word.
And I'm fairly active on LinkedIn.
So anybody can find me there and like we'll be coming out like my team's launching our
second version of the platform in September.
So keep your eyes peeled for a new website.
Don't don't judge our current website that might have been built by a firefighter.
So it's not the best.
But yeah, no, it's it's really exciting.
And ultimately, like I said, like my my goal is like if we and I tell my team this, like
is our North Star is to save a life.
If we can save one life, like I can sleep at night and feel like we accomplished our
mission.
Beautiful.
Well, I want to say thank you so much.
I mean, firstly, obviously talking about the product that you developed as a solution,
but also for your courageous vulnerability.
I think as I mentioned before, you know, these stories really resonate deeply with people.
But also there's an acknowledgement that when you're revisiting some of this, that this
is opening some wounds too.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today.
No, it's an honor, James.
And I love what you're doing and happy to support you and your mission and and to the
audience.
Like I think I'll end it with this.
Like, you know, you're you're not alone in what you're going through.
If you're struggling right now, you're not alone.
It's OK to not be OK.
And just have some self-compassion for yourself and recognizing that you're a human being
and people love you and you need to love yourself just as much as you love others.