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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show, former firefighter paramedic, union leader and the CEO of Ciento, Andrew Douglas.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Andrew's journey into the fire

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service, some of the career calls that he responded to, his own very powerful mental

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health story, how his near suicide attempt led him to create a peer support app using

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technology to bring firefighters together and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you, Andrew Douglas.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Andrew, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, thanks for having me, James.

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It's great to finally be here.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you today?

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I'm in the beautiful state of Washington.

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It's actually nice out for a rare occasion.

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It's been raining, so it's nice to have some sun again.

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Yeah, we're the opposite.

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Everyone is putting out Halloween, like all the stores been at Halloween decorations already

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because in Florida, we're just praying for the cooler weather.

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The summers are brutal here.

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So it's like the opposite of most days.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, we're getting getting ready to go into that like dark gloomy season.

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Which is England.

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So I totally understand that.

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All right.

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Well, I'd love to start the very beginning of your timeline.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings.

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Yeah, no, I was born in Texas.

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I moved when I was young, but I still claim I'm a Texan.

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And I have two parents that stayed married until not too long ago and they're going through

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divorce.

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And I have one sister and, you know, growing up, what I've learned is that there some of

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what I went through as a child, like translated into coming into the fire service.

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And there's good evidence behind a lot of us that are in the fire service just go in

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there as self sacrifice, you know.

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So I definitely as a kid dealt with like some on my father's side, I wouldn't say neglect

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as much as just like he had his own trauma carried on from a kid that like I didn't have

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that like loving relationship that like I want to bring to my children today.

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So yeah, it was it was kind of tough time growing up with that and not having like that

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father figure that I wanted.

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That is such an under discussed element of first responder and military mental health.

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And it was I've talked about this a lot.

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Jake Clark, the founder of Save a Warrior that really kind of opened my eyes to how much

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that makes a difference.

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And you know, you have struggles in your youth if you know, some people are able to process

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those, some people that kind of get buried down and they rear their head later.

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But if we're not talking about that portion, when it comes to a responders mental health

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journey and you're like, well, Andrew, you you had that, you know, horrendous fatal wreck.

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That's why you're struggling.

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You're missing the P beneath the mattress, as they say.

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Yeah, I think, you know, obviously, we'll get into like my struggles with mental health

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and it's great that we're openly talking about this now compared to when I started my career.

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I think the hard thing is like we we focus on like all the trauma that we go through

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on the job, which is traumatic and it affects us.

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Right.

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But it's like, what's the root cause?

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Like we don't really talk about the root causes.

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And it starts from when you're a child.

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And like, I didn't personally figure all that out until like I went to a psychedelic retreat

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and it like opened my eyes of like, holy cow, like this is the root cause.

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Like it's stuff from when you're a kid, you know, on the job, it revolved around the emotions

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of like guilt and shame.

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Like those were huge emotions that like the cause that affected me most were surrounded

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by guilt and shame.

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When you look back now with this mature land staying on your early life, you talked about,

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you know, your dad's struggles.

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What were through your eyes?

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What was that environment like?

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And then what were the negative impacts?

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Because, you know, people always say they did the best with what they had.

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So it's not a blaming thing.

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But you know, as I say a lot, there's reasons, not excuses.

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There's still reasons why, you know, you've got to unpack some of the stuff so that you

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can heal.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think it's good to give some context, like and give my dad, even though we don't

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really have the still the best relationship, give him some credit in that he broke, partially

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broke a cycle that he had growing up.

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Right.

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An abusive father, alcoholic, you know, lots of violence in the house.

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Like I didn't personally experience that.

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Like he never laid his hands on me.

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He never was mean to me.

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He you know, I never really saw like super bad negative, you know, relationship issues.

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Right.

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It was more like nothing was happening.

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Right.

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So like I didn't I didn't experience like the unconditional love from like my father

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and like involvement that I wanted.

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And then like looking back, it's because he was struggling.

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Right.

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He's still struggling to this day.

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And like now I have an opportunity as a father to, you know, continue.

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I've had my own failures and I'm open talking about that because, you know, that's how we

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grow is to like look in the mirror and say like, hey, I screwed up and I could have done

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better.

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And but I've broken that cycle even more.

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Right.

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So it's it's been a it was tough, you know, looking back of just like this, you know,

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like never showing up to my events, you know, like as a kid, like that really affected me.

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Like I love baseball.

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Like he he got drafted for baseball.

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Right.

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And like I wanted him to like see me to be like that and be successful.

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And like I didn't have that as a kid.

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And so it's kind of funny because like that drove me like instill to this day.

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Like I have this like when I put my mind to something like I'll accomplish it.

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Right.

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And that was like becoming a firefighter.

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I mean, I remember, shoot, I was in kindergarten and I first that was the first time I went

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to the fire station and like, you know, put on the gear and I was like, this is cool.

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And then like when I became a teenager, a troubled teenager, I guess you could say I

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had a good family friend who was a captain that like took me under his wing.

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And I started showing up to his shift like every day I could, you know, and I started

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doing ride alongs at like 15.

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And then I was like, I'm going to be a firefighter and a paramedic.

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And so then I just pursued it right after high school.

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I like went into it and then had like a little gap after like volunteering before like I

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actually joined full time.

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It's almost every single conversation is obviously people coming on here usually, you know, have

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have been through a kind of hero's journey and come out the other end and over and over

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and over again, you know, when there's an absence of a father figure, a mother figure,

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whatever that void is, there's a mentor.

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It might be male, might be female, but there's usually someone or a couple of people that

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turn that child.

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And this is, I think what's missing in any conversations.

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I mean, we've got these, you know, political conventions going on at the moment.

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I'm not hearing talking about, you know, obesity, mental health, anything that actually matters.

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You know, it's this divisive rhetoric yet again.

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But when you, as they say, you know, you want to change the world, start at home, but then

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you step outside your front door and you become a mentor in your community.

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That's how we turn these young kids from the life of crime, from the life of addiction

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or whatever it is and into first responders, military medicine, you know, whatever the

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thing is.

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So over and over again, I'm seeing this.

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It's the people that show up that make an immense difference to our young people that

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are literally at a crossroads.

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Yeah.

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And I kind of this is going to be an interesting analogy, but I think the fire service for

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me is kind of like a gang.

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Like, you know, like I didn't have that father figure, right.

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Or that family life and dynamic that I was like seeking.

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And I found that in the fire service.

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And I say this with a grain of salt in that in like a gang, when once I started struggling,

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like you know, they a gang doesn't always have your back, right.

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Like they'll turn their back on you in a heartbeat.

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And I'm not saying that that like fully happened.

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I had a lot of people that supported me and I'm grateful for that.

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At the same time, like, you know, one thing I do with my friends, like when they reach

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out to me or people that aren't my friends that reach out to me and like, hey, man, I'm

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struggling is I consistently follow up with them.

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Like how are you doing?

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Like don't need to respond to me.

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I just want you to know I'm thinking about you.

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Right.

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Like I didn't have that.

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And so so that's why I compare it like the fire service to like a gang life, because

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it was that family for me.

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And then eventually, like, I feel like, you know, the some people turn their back on me

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and it really hurt.

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And at the same time, like I have to be accountable for my actions and that like I I wasn't the

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best person.

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I, you know, I, I really struggled.

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And I took that out on other people and it wasn't fair.

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And I needed to get help earlier.

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And that's that's my goal, right, is to tell people that it's OK to share our stories.

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Because hopefully, like today, like my story and other viewers that that maybe can relate,

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like maybe I can make an impact on somebody before they get to where I was at and end

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up divorced and end up struggling with mental health for years.

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You know, there's a better way forward.

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And that's what I hope sharing my story will do.

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Absolutely.

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Well, I want to get to that support when we kind of get to that point in your story.

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We are also going to talk about technology and AI in a little bit as well.

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When you were at the school age, you mentioned playing baseball.

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But what about the computer side?

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Were you into that side of computers at that point?

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Oh, yeah.

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I mean, Oregon Trail.

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Are you kidding me?

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I remember in school playing Oregon Trail.

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Yeah, I mean, I I got like fairly big into video games for a while, you know, and that

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like kind of stopped once I had kids.

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But now I'm kind of back into it now that I'm divorced and don't have them all the time,

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unfortunately.

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Yeah, no, I was big into technology.

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But the interesting thing about video games that I've found is that like, you know, like

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when your kids come home from school, you're like, you know, how was your day?

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And like, there's better ways I can communicate to get more out of them.

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But it's just like good, you know, but like when I'm playing video games with my kids,

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like I can really have deep conversations and like learn more about them and like bond

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in a way, which is kind of, you know, there's good things and bad things about technology.

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But that's definitely something that has been really nice for me to get kind of a deeper

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connection with them.

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Interesting.

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Yeah, there's a warrior gamer.

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I have one of the guys on and they're using video games in the military space for community

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and mental health, because I mean, there's some literally games and VR programs that

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are making a difference, but also just being online with a bunch of veterans.

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And it's the same thing.

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You know, I think they get talking and they start kind of offloading the same way we would

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at the cohesive fire station table.

236
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,600
Oh, man, I missed the fire station, the coffee table.

237
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You know, you can solve the world's problems like, you know, you talk about political rhetoric,

238
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,960
like how many different sides of the aisle do we have in the firehouse and different

239
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:41,960
walks of life?

240
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,800
And like, I mean, you could solve the world's problems at the firehouse table.

241
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,880
I'm just telling you that right now.

242
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100 percent.

243
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:49,880
All right.

244
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,840
Well, speaking of the firehouse table, let's walk through.

245
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,560
So you've done some ride alongs.

246
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,720
Walk me through your journey, you know, academies and how you found yourself wearing uniform

247
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,320
from a career perspective.

248
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,320
Yeah.

249
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:07,880
I mean, like I said, like early on after high school, I got into a program, kind of like

250
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,800
a training program where you're basically working full time for free and fell in love

251
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,560
with the fire service.

252
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,900
Spent a couple of years doing that and then realized like, hey, I'm super immature, which

253
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I still really haven't grown up.

254
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,080
But I wasn't ready in my life to like make that commitment.

255
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,760
And so I left, just got married too young.

256
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,880
And then decided like, hey, I'm going to go back.

257
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I missed it so much.

258
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,560
And so I went back and then my fire chief at the time, I was a volunteer again.

259
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,600
And he's like, you know, we did this like firefighter testing process and like, I'm

260
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,120
super confident that like I'm going to do super well.

261
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And I did.

262
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,120
And he's like, didn't move me on.

263
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And I'm like, what the hell?

264
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,960
And they pulled me aside and he's like, listen, I know you've always wanted to be a paramedic.

265
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We want the reason why you didn't move on is we want to send you through medical school.

266
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,640
And I was like, holy shit, like, awesome.

267
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,560
So then I put in time and in medical school.

268
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,920
And like I said, like my, my drive like got me through it.

269
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:19,880
And you know, medical school was very stressful and a lot of fun at the same time.

270
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:25,480
And you know, I had an instructor, Mike Smith, who maybe some of your viewers have heard

271
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,600
of, but he unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago.

272
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:35,040
He was a huge mentor for me as like far as how like driving my medicine and like having

273
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,480
compassion for my patients.

274
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,000
And you know, he said something that like drives me to this day, especially when it

275
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,160
comes to like surrounding like mental health and whatnot is like, you know, you need to

276
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,920
be smart enough to know that you can't save everybody.

277
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And you need to be dumb enough to think you can.

278
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Right.

279
00:16:54,200 --> 00:17:00,320
And I'm, I feel that like, I know, like, personally, like, I can't change mental health alone.

280
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Like it's going to take an army to do it and reduce the stigma, which is really within

281
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:06,640
ourselves.

282
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,880
And at the same time, like I'm dumb enough to think like, I can change the world like

283
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,240
and make an impact on people's lives.

284
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:23,360
And like ultimately, you know, I will get into like me leaving, but like, you know,

285
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:25,200
when I left, I was lost.

286
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,560
And we can get that part of the story.

287
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,120
But really what I want to say is that like I have, I've realized like, you know, whatever

288
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:35,480
your religious beliefs are, but for me, it's like, you know, God sent me on another path

289
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:43,120
that has me in a path that I can save even more people than I would have and even better

290
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:48,160
save one of our brothers or sisters within the first responder community.

291
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:55,400
So yeah, then I got done with medic school and then did a couple years in a small department.

292
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,600
And you know, I wanted bigger and better things and went to a larger agency in Washington

293
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:00,600
State.

294
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,340
And you know, it was a great department.

295
00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:05,920
Like I miss it every day.

296
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,400
But ultimately, I didn't take care of myself like I should.

297
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:15,160
And I was involved in, in some pretty traumatic incidents that were, you know, I always had

298
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,160
horrible luck.

299
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:22,520
Like the weirdest shit happened to me, you know, getting shot at guns pointed in my face,

300
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:28,520
like, you know, like train wreck on like I five, like the major highway and like, like,

301
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,600
how am I involved in this, like these crazy things?

302
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,160
And so then, yeah, I struggled to be kind of vulnerable, like with your audience, like

303
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,240
I had in 2019, I had a suicide attempt.

304
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,360
I was in a pretty bad place and I didn't know it.

305
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,000
And I felt like I was alone and nobody could see like, hey, I'm struggling.

306
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,960
And so one day, you know, obviously involved alcohol, which is a huge, we can get on that

307
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:56,960
too.

308
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:57,960
That's a huge problem.

309
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:05,200
And, you know, by by an act of God, like, you know, somehow my my friend's wife and

310
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,840
we know we were living together as we're building a house next door, you know, she heard me

311
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,680
and got my wife and and intervened and then peer support.

312
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,480
My brother Dave came in and made a huge impact on me and got me into the care I needed.

313
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:29,800
And then I floundered for years and, you know, it was not not the person I wanted to be like,

314
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,320
but I can't, you know, change the past.

315
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:37,680
I can just be accountable for for my actions and then ultimately left the fire service.

316
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,680
Staying on this, obviously, we're kind of jumping ahead a little bit, but while we're

317
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:47,040
on the topic of suicide again, my knowledge has just come from, you know, almost a thousand

318
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:48,040
conversations now.

319
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,000
I'm by no means an expert in anything.

320
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000
I'm also a black cloud shit magnet, by the way, in the fire.

321
00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:01,360
But one of the things that I didn't hear anyone talking about, and it really counters that

322
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:06,760
stigma that we touched on before, is the old school mentality was, you know, suicide was

323
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,200
cowardly and selfish.

324
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,740
And how could you and think about your family?

325
00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:14,680
And then you interview hundreds and hundreds of people that were there.

326
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,160
And as I pointed out, some of them actually went through their their suicide attempts

327
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,380
and survived like Kevin Hines jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge.

328
00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:25,440
A lot of people were stopped just like you, you know, moments before in a divine intervention,

329
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:26,940
if you like.

330
00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:34,440
But where I don't think there's an understanding is when you hear all of them, it seems like

331
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,720
their reality has been distorted.

332
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,920
And again, we're interested to get your take on this.

333
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:45,720
But to the point where they truly believe that they are the reason for their family's

334
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:46,720
pain.

335
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,720
So now you take a responder who signed on the line saying, I will die for a complete

336
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,880
stranger and you distort the reality through all the things, you know, sleep deprivation,

337
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,760
unaddressed trauma, you know, childhood trauma, you know, psych meds, alcohol, sleep deprivation,

338
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:06,600
all the perfect storm of things that then reframes it as that suicide at that moment.

339
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,960
It was incredibly courageous and incredibly selfless, and they must have been terrified

340
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,520
going through it.

341
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,860
So then you pour guilt and shame on the family after when it's happened.

342
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:23,400
So I from all these other people, I'm hearing that the element of burdensome through a distorted

343
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,120
lens, because it doesn't make sense to a healthy mind, but that's because it's a healthy mind,

344
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,020
is the is really the unspoken element of suicide.

345
00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:33,440
Did you have that yourself?

346
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,000
Yeah, I mean, before that, like happened to me, like, you know, I was having like anger

347
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,080
outbursts flashbacks, like just crazy, you know, like, I don't mean to use the word crazy.

348
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,080
I was struggling.

349
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,080
Right.

350
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:52,600
And those around me were shaming and guilting me for the way I was acting instead of recognizing

351
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,000
the underlying signs and symptoms of what was going on.

352
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,600
You know, even my my ex wife at the time, like was she was supportive through the years.

353
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,520
But like during that moment was like isolated me.

354
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:06,520
Right.

355
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:07,520
Because I was crazy.

356
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:08,520
You know, she would call me crazy.

357
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,120
And and so finally, like, I felt like, well, you know what?

358
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:15,640
Like nobody cares about me.

359
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,440
Like I'm just a burden on everybody.

360
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,200
Like I just you know, I wasn't thinking straight.

361
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:28,120
And you know, and in that time, you know, I heard a lot of people.

362
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,120
Right.

363
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:34,280
And that's the hard part is that, you know, so you feel this guilt and shame, like being

364
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,280
a burden.

365
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,480
And then afterwards, you feel guilt and shame for putting people through, you know, what

366
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,000
what happens afterwards.

367
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,240
Right.

368
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,240
And during the event.

369
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,400
So, yeah, it's burdens a big thing.

370
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400
Absolutely.

371
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,720
Well, you touched on being shot and some other things when you look back now.

372
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,720
And this is not a what's the worst thing you've seen, but what was some of the career calls?

373
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,480
I think a lot of us have been at a shooting, multiple shootings, but not actively being

374
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,960
shot at one of our rescues was in one of the places I worked.

375
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,680
So talk to me about some of the calls that stick in your mind.

376
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:13,880
Yeah, I mean, I think about early on in my career, you know, this one really sticks with

377
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:14,880
me.

378
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,780
My my son tried to come out at 24 weeks.

379
00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,080
And that was a very traumatic time.

380
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,120
I'm a first time dad and like, you know, I know the reality as a paramedic that a 24

381
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:33,640
week kid is the chances of dying are high and the chances of lifetime disabilities is

382
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,320
high.

383
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:36,560
And so like that was traumatic.

384
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:43,120
And then luckily, he hung in there until like 31 or 32 weeks.

385
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,880
And then when he was born, he was really, really sick.

386
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:53,800
And, you know, like had to be put on a ventilator and I saw that he was super sick and like,

387
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,560
it was just a very traumatic experience outside of the fire service.

388
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,040
And I'm kind of looping that into like not too long after I that was he was born on the

389
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:09,000
29th and I was supposed to start my new, you know, full time career firefighter as a paramedic

390
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,280
with my first department on July 1st.

391
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,440
And so they gave me some time off, obviously, to deal with that.

392
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:23,880
And literally, like my first couple of shifts in, I had a paramedic student, which is I

393
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,840
kind of fault my officer.

394
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,660
And I still kind of hold some resentment towards him for putting me in that position of being

395
00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:34,280
a brand new paramedic and like having a paramedic student.

396
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,520
Like I had no place like mentoring a paramedic student.

397
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:46,960
And so we got like toned out in the morning to a pediatric cardiac arrest.

398
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:58,240
And so we went to it and, you know, here I am as like this new medic and like, I want

399
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,760
to do all the skills, but like I recognize that there's like this newer paramedic in

400
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,720
paramedic school that needs to do skills.

401
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:14,640
And it was a premature baby who just got home that morning and my kid's still in the NICU.

402
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:24,080
And I let this medic student do an I.O. and it didn't work and nothing was going right.

403
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,600
And so I freaked out like after that.

404
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,480
And I didn't know for the longest time.

405
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,520
Like I knew that like, you know, there's this feeling my son's in the NICU, but like I didn't

406
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:43,240
learn until I went to my psychedelic retreat, like why I felt the way I did, because I literally

407
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,760
saw this call on like a third person perspective, like overseeing it.

408
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,680
I like relived it.

409
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,000
And I realized like it was the feeling of guilt in that, like, I shouldn't have let

410
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,360
this paramedic student do that.

411
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:03,040
And then the feeling of shame that like I couldn't like save this kid because I was

412
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:09,880
seeing my son, my son in that.

413
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:16,400
And so, yeah, that's how I started out my career and that impacted me.

414
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:23,080
And then, you know, there was a couple other like incidents there that were a big impact.

415
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,960
And, you know, this getting shot at is what it is.

416
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,240
Like that wasn't as bad.

417
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:37,600
I mean, it was memorable, but like, you know, I went on this shooting at my other department,

418
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,720
which I don't know if you ever watched cops, but that's where it started.

419
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,520
So that kind of gives you an idea of like where I worked.

420
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,720
And you know, this is chaotic shooting, like multiple people down.

421
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,480
We literally went into an active shooting scene, probably shouldn't have been there.

422
00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:00,260
It was seen wasn't secured literally like these gang bangers like throw this gal in

423
00:27:00,260 --> 00:27:05,320
lifeless like in my rig, like as we got there and like this dude like pulls out a gun, like

424
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,720
pointed at me and like to my face and like, if you don't save her, I'm going to kill you.

425
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,600
And like, I was like, holy shit, like, and she's crashing, you know, like pressure was

426
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:15,600
in the shitter.

427
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:21,440
And darted her both sides and luckily there's a military hospital that's a trauma center.

428
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,600
So I went there instead of the other trauma hospital because I had a gun pointed at me

429
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,160
and told I'm going to get killed.

430
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,800
So like that was an impactful call.

431
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:36,480
And then, you know, my, my two big bugaboos that I struggled struggled with for years

432
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,840
was a hanging that I went on in this guy.

433
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,800
I don't know if you ever watched CKY 2K back in the day, like Bam Margera and like those

434
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:51,080
guys early on before Jackass, but like one of the dudes like looked reminded me of him,

435
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,120
like had this like facial hair and I keep, he had like, there's paint everywhere and

436
00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:02,600
like this, he stood on a paint can and his, his, his like wife was screaming and that

437
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:03,600
was right around Halloween.

438
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:10,640
And like, that's when I first noticed like symptoms of PTSD because I was trying to avoid

439
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,960
the Halloween store because it reminded me of this dude and he looked like a skeleton

440
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:21,720
because he was a meth addict and so that was, that bothered me for a long time.

441
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,480
And then what really sent me downhill was like, I was a part of an MCI on, on the freeway

442
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:35,520
in Washington of a train wreck and I was working in the treatment area and like it was horribly

443
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,860
ran.

444
00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:40,840
We didn't have enough ambulances and there was overwhelming amounts of people and people

445
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,920
everywhere and I just felt like really guilty.

446
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:45,920
Like what the fuck man?

447
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,800
Like why is there not rigs coming?

448
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,280
Like I can't handle all this.

449
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,160
And then the one of the gals working in the treatment area, Crystal, she ended up killing

450
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,640
herself a year later and hung herself on, on Christmas.

451
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:05,400
And so like I remember her from paramedic school and she was really amazing to me and

452
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:11,960
so like I harbored a lot of shame and guilt that like, why didn't I reach out to her?

453
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,340
Is it from this call?

454
00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:15,760
Like it was way more than just that, right?

455
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,640
But like in my own brain, like I'm making up the story of like, I should have reached

456
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,640
out to her.

457
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,640
It's my fault.

458
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,320
And then a year after that, it's like when I, when I had my suicide attempt.

459
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,880
This is what I was telling someone the other day.

460
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Actually, I think it was, it was, I did a live Q and a on moving to a shorter firefighter

461
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,400
work week, the 42 hour week, which is, you know, again, you know, the horse that I flog

462
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:42,720
many, many times, but is we have these published statistics.

463
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,500
And you know, if you look at firefighter suicides, I mean, they're not that many.

464
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:52,040
If you look at the published ones, but Florida alone, I know we've had, I mean, something

465
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,100
crazy like 17 or something this year alone, it's probably even more now.

466
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:57,560
And that's only the reported ones.

467
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,600
You think about how many people you've seen died suddenly air quotes, you know, exactly

468
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,080
what that mean is suicide or an overdose, you know, most likely.

469
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,080
And that's one state.

470
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,240
You're telling me the whole country we had 70, there's no fucking way.

471
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,320
So this is what so heartbreaking is behind the curtain.

472
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,320
It's so much worse than we're pretending in the front.

473
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,760
And then that isn't even taken into account.

474
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,040
Our retirees who aren't counted at all, there's no VA for first responders.

475
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,000
So that's when it's really going to manifest when they, when they leave the fire service

476
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,100
and they've got this head full of trauma and they maybe go to an empty home because their

477
00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:32,640
marriage fell apart.

478
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,840
You know, those are the uncounted losses as well.

479
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,240
So it's so sad to hear, you know, that that's yet another person that you lost.

480
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,240
Yeah.

481
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:47,320
I mean, I kind of want to give a plug to somebody that's been, I built a really strong relationship

482
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,500
with her names, Liz Polar, Elizabeth Pole, and out of Chicago PD.

483
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:56,600
And she's built a nonprofit called resilience heroes or resilient heroes.

484
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,480
Sorry, Liz, if I butchered that.

485
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,480
But like that's what she focuses on is like suicide prevention.

486
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:10,680
But then talks, she's actually a first responder and I'm butchering this again, like autopsy

487
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,120
specialist.

488
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,520
And she talks about the amount of, she'd be great to have on your show, by the way, talks

489
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,840
about the amount of retirees that go unreported and suicides.

490
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,720
And then like being on my side now, even though like I kind of feel shameful saying I'm retired,

491
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,160
right, because I left early.

492
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:36,820
But you know, the amount of true retirees that reach out to me now that like nobody

493
00:31:36,820 --> 00:31:40,640
knows that they're reaching out and saying like, hey, I left and I'm struggling.

494
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:46,340
And I'm like, I know how you feel, feel because like, you know, our purposes first responders

495
00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:49,640
is to impact lives, be a part of the firehouse culture.

496
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,000
And then when we leave, we lack that purpose.

497
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Right.

498
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,240
And I think it's human beings, if we don't have a purpose to drive us forward, and we

499
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:06,680
don't have core values that drive us in our underlying values as human beings, like we

500
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,680
flounder.

501
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,680
Right.

502
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,920
And so it's, I think the retiree component is like a huge, huge impact.

503
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:20,520
And like, it's kind of cool seeing some departments, I'd like to see it go nationwide.

504
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,920
But they're providing peer support for their retirees.

505
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:29,560
And I think that is really important that in like my department had like coffee monthly

506
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,920
with retirees to kind of keep them involved.

507
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
But they're a forgotten group for sure.

508
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,760
100%.

509
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,520
Well, I want to get to the kind of downward spiral that you experienced.

510
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,800
But before we do just to set the stage, what was your work week in your department?

511
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:51,800
Yeah, so I worked initially like 4896.

512
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:58,240
My new department was a modified Detroit and three plus two.

513
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:04,880
And my problem, like, you know, my ex was a stay at home wife.

514
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:11,400
And you know, I made decent money, but like to like get by, I had to work overtime.

515
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,880
I was also like, our secretary treasurer of the union.

516
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:21,040
And so like, I'm putting in like 100 hours a week in overtime working for the union,

517
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,320
doing my normal shifts.

518
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,760
So like, but then also looking back, like my marriage was very toxic.

519
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,760
And like, if you know anything, what a trauma bond is, like I've learned this in therapy,

520
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:38,000
like I, you know, I might my own stuff and my own failures from the relationship, but

521
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:44,280
it was like, it was a trauma bond from what I've been through getting married young.

522
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,600
And so I also avoided home, right?

523
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:53,280
Like, and I feel guilty that like I wasn't the present father that I could have been.

524
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,800
And at the same time, like, I kind of got into like Buddhism, and it's really helped

525
00:33:58,800 --> 00:33:59,800
me.

526
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:05,560
And even though I'm I still believe in God and I'm a Christian.

527
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,960
It it really helped me.

528
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,320
And so like realizing that I just need to be in the present moment and like it the past

529
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,360
doesn't matter.

530
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,360
The future doesn't matter.

531
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,520
Like, how can I be a good dad today?

532
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,800
And I still harbor that guilt, but I try to try to work through it.

533
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:22,800
That's funny.

534
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,960
It was just total random, but I saw a post on social media today and it was a clip from

535
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,800
Kung Fu Panda and it was the wise turtle and it was probably butchering now but it said,

536
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,960
I can't want to say but you can't change, you know, the future or the past.

537
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,040
He said, but the present is a gift.

538
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,840
That's why they call it the present.

539
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:40,960
And I was like, I like that.

540
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:41,960
That's good.

541
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,320
And even with the religious thing, this is what I've heard some people say, and I agree

542
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:51,400
a thousand percent who says that you have to be pigeonhole Christian.

543
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,920
Why can you not take a little of but you know, Buddhism or you know, whatever the the other

544
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,440
wisdom from other, you know, great people and great philosophies in the world and make

545
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,300
your own very personal one.

546
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:03,360
We do it with nutrition.

547
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,360
We do it with strength and conditioning.

548
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,240
We do it with mental health.

549
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:10,240
But all of a sudden, if you don't do it this church's way, then you're not a proper Christian.

550
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,560
And I that my personal thing is I call bullshit on that.

551
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,360
Everyone should have their own version of their own spiritual beliefs.

552
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,360
Totally agree.

553
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,360
And I think people just need to have more compassion and understanding of other people.

554
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,920
You know, I don't know if we'll get into this, but like I after I left the fire service,

555
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,480
I moved to Costa Rica.

556
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,640
We like literally sold everything and moved down there and like it really opened my eyes

557
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:39,840
to like a different world and like a different way of life and realizing that like I was

558
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,080
very judgmental before.

559
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:49,160
And I was I took a lot of things for granted that there's people around the world that

560
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,960
that don't have what I had.

561
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,000
And like releasing all of those things and having nothing, which is funny because I've

562
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:03,720
gone full circle, you know, not having things, realizing that that, you know, meeting families

563
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:08,760
that have nothing and are struggling to survive.

564
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,040
But they're so happy, like so much happier than Americans.

565
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,880
Like they they call it down there like put a Vida, which is like pure life.

566
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,080
And but they were happy, man.

567
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,400
And like it really opened my eyes that like none of this stuff that we care about in American

568
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:25,400
culture matters.

569
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:32,280
But what matters is connection and community and family, your family and families, whatever

570
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,280
we make it to be.

571
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,480
It's not like our necessarily our direct family.

572
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:43,920
But then, you know, going through like a divorce and then coming back to nothing was was difficult,

573
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,160
right?

574
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:52,640
Because now you're like thrown back into this American materialistic, superficial relationships.

575
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,560
It was it was just really hard.

576
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,080
You mentioned about working.

577
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,320
I think this is another unspoken element of the mental health crisis.

578
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,960
And sadly, it's being promoted because there is so much overtime available.

579
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,400
We are in a recruitment crisis, which, again, we fix the things that are broken about the

580
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,040
working conditions of a fire service.

581
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Then all of a sudden, you'll have people in the spots and you won't have the ability to

582
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,840
work all this or even worse, which is what happened to me, mandatory over time for a

583
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,600
lot of my career.

584
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,360
But the busyness, you know, the guys that we call the overtime whores, you know, I would

585
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,040
argue that they were struggling immensely because otherwise, why are you not going to

586
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,040
your home to your family?

587
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,400
You know, and if you're in the wrong relationship, why don't you have the strength to say, OK,

588
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,400
we've come to the end.

589
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,120
We need to separate so that we can be happy.

590
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,640
Our kids can be happy.

591
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,560
But you see that over and over again, just taking more, taking more, taking more.

592
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,760
And so we're doing a disservice ourselves, obviously, but also these departments that

593
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,760
are so mismanaged is the only right word now, because overtime is absolutely essential when

594
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,220
a storm comes through, when a hurricane or an earthquake or whatever it is or special

595
00:38:01,220 --> 00:38:04,740
events from the evenings for 10 hours.

596
00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:08,280
But to use that as a staffing model over and over again, we're feeding that.

597
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,400
So you've got the ability to work all that over time.

598
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,000
You've got the willing to because you don't, you know, subconsciously don't realize that

599
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,160
you're running from something and staying busy to avoid it.

600
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,440
And then, you know, you've created sleep deprivation and now you've got the perfect storm for suicide.

601
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,920
Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty proud.

602
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,640
Like my last contract we negotiated when I was on the board, we pissed off a lot of people

603
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,520
by maximizing 72 hours like you can't work more than 72 hours.

604
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:43,380
But like you're saying, like those those people that were there all the time, myself included

605
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:45,120
are the most broken people.

606
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:51,680
I'm telling you right now, like they are hiding from it's really easy to go into work and

607
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,000
hide from your emotions that you're really feeling when you're off of work.

608
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,420
You know, a lot of those same people I know had drinking problems and like that was their

609
00:39:00,420 --> 00:39:04,480
way so they like didn't go home and drink, you know, to work.

610
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,960
And because he couldn't.

611
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,080
I mean, there's some people that unfortunately do have struggles and then they do bring it

612
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,080
to work.

613
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,120
And a lot of those people I knew that were like that were were just running and hiding

614
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,120
from from an underlying problem.

615
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,040
So you mentioned obviously the you know, the near suicide prior to that.

616
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,040
What were the events?

617
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,300
How was this manifesting in your life that was creating actions that you became guilty

618
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:29,000
and shameful about?

619
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,920
Yeah, I mean, I self isolated a lot, right?

620
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,400
Like so I isolated myself from my friends, my family.

621
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,920
I had like a lot of anger outbursts and like these like out of body experiences from like

622
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:49,440
reliving these calls that then I would like be crazy, I guess you could say.

623
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,440
Right.

624
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,140
And you know, I wasn't sleeping.

625
00:39:52,140 --> 00:39:57,800
I would stay up all night because I was afraid to fall asleep to get some of these dreams

626
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,360
that were so real that like, you know, my my ex said that I would wake up screaming

627
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,480
or being violent in my sleep.

628
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:10,640
And so like all these things are happening and like I'm avoiding places.

629
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,920
I'm not doing the things I love.

630
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:23,160
And you know, like after like that attempt, right, I again, I can't I went downhill,

631
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,640
like took some time off work, like rushed back to work and then went downhill again.

632
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,080
And like, you know, here I am isolating myself and like a really impactful moment because

633
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:38,680
I was like having those thoughts again about a year later.

634
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:46,200
My my friend, which unfortunately, I kind of butchered that relationship just from not

635
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,600
taking care of myself.

636
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,320
He took me out fishing, which is what I love doing.

637
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,680
And like I caught like the biggest steelhead I've ever caught.

638
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,320
And like that like fish saved me, I say.

639
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,880
And so did he, because then I went to an inpatient facility.

640
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:12,040
And like, that's like when I like started to like really learn about my feelings and

641
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,640
like what I what I've been through and that like what I'm feeling is normal because I

642
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,640
was in a facility.

643
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,840
I didn't go to Center of Excellence, but there was all first responders there, law enforcement

644
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:23,840
and fire.

645
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:29,560
And I realized I wasn't alone and like that, like I could get better.

646
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,440
And I just grabbed like PTSD is like a shoulder injury, right?

647
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,260
Like I had shoulder surgery, got hurt on the job multiple times, multiple surgeries on

648
00:41:37,260 --> 00:41:38,260
it.

649
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:41,440
And it's never the same, right?

650
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,800
You're never 100 percent.

651
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:50,200
But PTSD is just like an injury in that we we can heal from it.

652
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,160
And you're still going to have your moments of struggle and that's OK.

653
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,760
It's just that like it is possible to get better.

654
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,560
What were the tools that you started to accumulate?

655
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,720
I think one of the problems that in this conversation at the moment is not this specifically one,

656
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:11,080
but the mental health conversation is they the things that are offered to our veterans,

657
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,760
a lot of our first responders are going to be, you know, talk therapy, psych meds, maybe

658
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,880
EMDR if it's somewhat progressive.

659
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,200
But they don't realize that there's, you know, hiking retreats and equine therapy and canines

660
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:27,520
and psychedelics and ketamine and all the other things that are actually in this toolbox.

661
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,520
So kind of lead me through your journey of the tools that started working for you specifically.

662
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,160
Yeah, I'm going to just be straight up and this might piss off some therapists, but like

663
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,160
talk therapy doesn't work.

664
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,000
I mean, like I did something called like CPT, right, which is kind of talk therapy.

665
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,840
But you're like writing and working through trauma and stuff like that was really impactful.

666
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:54,800
But I'll be honest, I had put up all these walls when I'd be in therapy.

667
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,520
Once I really got talking about something, I was uncomfortable.

668
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:58,760
I would just shut down.

669
00:42:58,760 --> 00:42:59,960
Like I'm out.

670
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:01,360
Like I'm not talking about this.

671
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,360
Like EMDR, same thing.

672
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,960
Once I would start to feel something, totally shut down.

673
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:13,320
Again, some kind of controversial depending on who talks about it and how they feel.

674
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:23,520
But like the only thing that like totally changed my life was psychedelics.

675
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,120
But I also learned like meditation, like there's other skills you have, but like those were

676
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,080
just to like bring you down.

677
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,360
Right.

678
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:39,680
But the only thing that like truly changed my life was the psychedelics and that it takes

679
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,200
away our ego.

680
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:47,760
Like our ego is like the thing that prevents us from getting forward in treatment.

681
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:54,200
And I think a lot of us in the first responder community have pretty big egos.

682
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,560
So it like wiped that out.

683
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:01,160
And like I was able to like really process things.

684
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,800
But it was really weird because it was all in like this third person perspective.

685
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,400
So like I was observing, right?

686
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,800
Like you talk about meditation that like, oh, observe your thoughts and like, hey, it's

687
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,040
okay to have that thought.

688
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:14,520
But like you need to like move on.

689
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:20,220
And like that's like, so it was almost like meditation in a way in that, that you're observing

690
00:44:20,220 --> 00:44:23,200
what you're feeling and going through in the moment.

691
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,480
And like ever since then, like I'm not perfect.

692
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,760
I still struggle here and there.

693
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:34,600
But like I really have a deep understanding of the root causes of everything in my life.

694
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,360
I won't go into detail, but like I relived my life and I know it sounds crazy, but unless

695
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,080
you've done it, I can't explain it.

696
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:49,080
And like I, from a kid to where I'm at today, like I learned a lot about myself and those

697
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,240
root causes.

698
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,200
What about the actual psychedelics themselves?

699
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,640
Obviously we've got ayahuasca, we've got Ibogaine, we've got 5-Meo-DMT.

700
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,840
What was the combination that worked for you?

701
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,320
So I did Iboga, which is Ibogaine.

702
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:11,080
So Ibogaine is like the synthesized alkaloid of Iboga, which is an actual root from Africa.

703
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,280
Again, divine intervention.

704
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,360
I'm in Costa Rica.

705
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,240
You know, my ex left me and don't have my kids.

706
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:18,560
I'm sitting at home alone.

707
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:27,560
I had my, you know, again, I'll be transparent and like I had a legit overdose.

708
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,560
That was crazy.

709
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,600
And then like, you know, this guy who the first person who's ever told me that he believes

710
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:41,040
in me, he's like, you need to go to this retreat in Costa Rica.

711
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,800
It'll change your life.

712
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,040
And I was like, to help, I had nothing left.

713
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,480
Like I'm like, what do I have to lose?

714
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:49,480
You know?

715
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:56,480
And so I like cold turkeyed my, I do not recommend this for anybody, like go to a doctor, but

716
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:03,120
I cold turkeyed all my, my antidepressants and it was a worst month of my life.

717
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:10,840
Like, but I feel like I had to like, like go through rock bottom and like feel that,

718
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:17,280
like how horrible that felt to get to this place where I was open to like whatever it's

719
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,400
going to do for me.

720
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:26,440
Like I just, I just like, I, man, I'm, you're getting me all like, like I, I, I probably

721
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,440
prayed.

722
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:33,440
Like I said, like, you know, like whoever's out there, like I wasn't religious at this

723
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:41,840
point, just so you know, but I said like, you know, whoever's out there, like I want

724
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,120
to be a good person.

725
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,080
I want to be a good father.

726
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:56,240
And and then my life started to change and I'm still not perfect, but.

727
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:03,480
It let me down a path or a map today to, to hopefully make an impact on people's lives.

728
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:04,480
It's amazing to hear.

729
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,840
I mean, and again, I love your vulnerability.

730
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:07,840
That's true courage.

731
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,880
And I've had, you know, Navy SEALs, SAS operators and tears on here and it debunks the whole

732
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,840
men don't cry bullshit.

733
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,760
But you know, the, the psychedelics over and over again, you know, is it for every single

734
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:21,760
person though?

735
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,760
And do they all need to do the full Ibogaine or, you know, with psilocybin or, you know,

736
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,680
there's all these, these kinds of levels to it as well.

737
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,640
But I've got to, you know, what if actual friend of mine hands down, it saved his life.

738
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:39,360
And then ironically, I was a guest on someone's show and they said to me, Hey, there's a firefighter

739
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,320
and I was struggling.

740
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Can you help?

741
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,720
I ended up sending him to the same place that my friend went to and day one, super resistant

742
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:48,720
to the medicine.

743
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,420
He was, you know, I learned this after and he was like, yeah, this is bullshit.

744
00:47:52,420 --> 00:47:57,720
And day two, he had an absolute revelation and you know, this guy had actually been on

745
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:01,920
a very intelligent journey, but you know, for example, he'd done the things that we

746
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:07,760
were told would work like ketamine even, but he didn't do ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

747
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,560
They just stuck a needle in his arm and then walked out the door.

748
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,560
That's not, you know, what you're supposed to be doing.

749
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,600
So he thought he'd kind of checked all the boxes and was literally like, if this doesn't

750
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,120
work, then I'm out.

751
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:24,000
And day two, he said to me, cause I spoke to him a few days there, he said, James, including

752
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:29,080
the birth of my child and getting hired as a firefighter, that was the most powerful

753
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:34,040
experience of my entire life and completely turned his life around.

754
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,160
So now obviously, let me be very clear.

755
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,780
There's a lot of work now that, you know, is involved to carry on the healing because

756
00:48:40,780 --> 00:48:44,240
you basically unlocked the door to that little box in your mind.

757
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:50,120
But if you combine that with, you know, the kind of follow through and still talking to

758
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,360
mentors and working through your stuff, I think this is the missing piece of the puzzle

759
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,560
and our insane drug prohibition laws are creating a massive barrier to entry.

760
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,320
Now there are very, very many places that people can go under the radar, but the fact

761
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:09,960
that this is being kept away and is stigmatized and it's the seemingly one of the most powerful,

762
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:15,600
truly life-saving medicines out there that has been used literally for thousands of years.

763
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,800
You know, this has to be part of the mental health conversation in first responders.

764
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:20,800
Yeah.

765
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,800
And, you know, like you said, it's not for everybody.

766
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,160
It's super intense.

767
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:34,000
Like it was, yeah, it was before it was the, I will never do it again.

768
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,000
It was that, it was that good and that bad.

769
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,000
Right.

770
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,000
But I think the one thing to talk about too, like we talked about like the alcohol problem,

771
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:48,920
like I'll admit, like I was drinking a lot to suppress my feelings that like I was going

772
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:58,280
through and like literally I haven't drank since September of, I'm about a year sober

773
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,880
coming up and like I have no desire to drink.

774
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:07,800
Like, and I've been through still a lot this last year and I still haven't touched alcohol.

775
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:13,720
And you know, like somebody that was down there with me, I mean, this is like millionaires

776
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:19,040
and like very, very successful people that were at this retreat with me.

777
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,400
And a lot of them had drug problems, like pill problems.

778
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:29,080
And like one of the guys I've still maintained a relationship with, like he, he, he went

779
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:34,680
cold turkey off of narcotic pills and has not touched it since.

780
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:41,480
And there's like good underlying evidence of ibogaine specifically to get people off

781
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:42,920
of narcotics.

782
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,680
And again, that's not something that's talked about because of that, like stigma surrounding

783
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:48,720
it.

784
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:53,400
In fact, like when I was like trying to get a job after the fire service, like I had a

785
00:50:53,400 --> 00:51:01,200
video about like psychedelics, you know, like talking about it, my experience and this employer's

786
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,120
like, yeah, no, like you can't do that.

787
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,200
We're not going to hire you because of that specific thing.

788
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,120
And it's like the ignorance is there.

789
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,240
Like they don't understand, A, what I've been through as a first responder, B, the evidence

790
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,000
that backs what I was talking about and what I've been through.

791
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,760
Well, I mean, to underline the ridiculousness I just posted the other day that the FDA rejected

792
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:28,160
MDMA led psychotherapy being legalized.

793
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:34,040
This is the same FDA, FDA that approved the OxyContin, you know, erroneously that created

794
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,280
the opioid crisis that we know now.

795
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:42,120
So I mean, that seems like, let's be honest, like, and again, I don't mind being controversial

796
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,640
because like we need to be, but they don't give a shit about us.

797
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:47,640
Right.

798
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:53,720
Well, why do you think, why do you think they don't want to approve these MDMA and psychedelics?

799
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:59,420
Because I know people have gone through and like are off of antidepressants afterwards.

800
00:51:59,420 --> 00:52:01,160
So it's all about money.

801
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,840
Like if you, that was the other thing, like moving outside of the United States, I learned

802
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:11,560
that like, no matter what political leaning you have, our country is run by money.

803
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,640
We're two big corporations that don't give a shit about anybody else and we just want

804
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:17,640
to make money.

805
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,320
And so like, that's why I think there's so much pushback on psychedelics because it's

806
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,040
going to get people off antidepressants.

807
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,640
And if you can keep somebody on antidepressants forever, big pharma, which hopefully I don't

808
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,560
get you canceled for this, but there's been a lot worse on here.

809
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,080
I trust me, but like they're, they're not going to make money.

810
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:39,080
Right.

811
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:44,080
And so I think there's just so much pushback in, in everybody in the FDA.

812
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:49,160
I'm saying this anecdotally, like I don't have any evidence, but they got to be bought

813
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:50,160
off.

814
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,120
Like I think about going from lidocaine to amyotarone, like how shitty is it to drop

815
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:55,120
amyotarone?

816
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:56,120
Right.

817
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,760
And I think I've had way more success with lidocaine than, than I ever did with amyotarone,

818
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:00,760
but I digress.

819
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,880
No, I think it's, it's, it's such a needed conversation.

820
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:10,560
This is what drives me crazy is here we are, you know, my opinion is that once again, we've

821
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,080
got to choose from the lesser of two evils out of 330 million people.

822
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,000
And it's the world's biggest distraction.

823
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,000
None of them are talking about beastie.

824
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,600
None of them are talking about mental health.

825
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:25,400
None of them talking about safety in our schools, all the things that actually affect Americans.

826
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:32,840
But when you look at the pandemic, which spanned both aisles, you know, that was the most beautiful

827
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:39,200
opportunity to bring the health of the nation forefront to give, you know, bolster local

828
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:44,280
farmers to make clean organic foods, to put PE programs back in schools, to put real food

829
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,480
back in schools and get all the soda machines out of them.

830
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:48,480
And what happened?

831
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,320
The polar opposite, because if you have a healthy nation, you think about, I mean, it

832
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:58,640
must be trillions that are in blood pressure meds, diabetes meds, all the gadgets and gizmos

833
00:53:58,640 --> 00:53:59,640
that go with that.

834
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,960
I mean, it's such a huge, huge industry.

835
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,860
And those are the people that are lining the pockets of both sides.

836
00:54:05,860 --> 00:54:09,960
As we sit here, you know, I feel like the dude in the middle of a tennis match in the

837
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,040
middle by the net looking left and right, going, what the fuck is going on yet again?

838
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:19,040
But here we are, you know, so there is absolutely no desire to make the nation healthier because

839
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,180
after COVID, if that wasn't a wake up call, then there isn't one because there was one

840
00:54:24,180 --> 00:54:25,780
truth during COVID.

841
00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:30,200
The healthier the person, the higher the chance of them surviving that virus.

842
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:31,200
That simple.

843
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,960
Yeah, no, it's, it's, um, we don't matter, man.

844
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:41,160
Like, like we all think we're important, like as individuals, like, you don't matter.

845
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,560
Like at the end of the day, like the only permanent thing in life is that you're going

846
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:45,560
to die.

847
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:50,040
That is truly the only permanent thing and like everything around you.

848
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,600
And this is what I've learned, like going through everything is like everything's meant

849
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:54,600
to change.

850
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:55,600
Right?

851
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,920
Like there's a, there's a book I read, like this guy named Thich Nhat Hanh, I think is

852
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:00,920
his name.

853
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,720
Um, and like, it was like, you know, it's like a mantra that you say every day that

854
00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:06,720
I do.

855
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:12,520
And it's like, you know, um, everything around me like is meant to change.

856
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,320
Like my, my health is meant to change.

857
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,520
My, you know, family and the people I love are meant to change.

858
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:28,880
Um, you know, the only thing that, that we can control is, is our own actions.

859
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,120
Right.

860
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:37,200
And um, so I think in, in our world, like if more people would realize that, like, you

861
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:42,000
know, the, the important thing is like, if we can take a step forward and make the change,

862
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,760
like you look at the biggest movements in, in our world, um, you know, I think of Martin

863
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:47,760
Luther King Jr.

864
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:48,760
Right?

865
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,640
Like he was arrested, he was shamed, he was discriminated against.

866
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:59,600
Um, but he was vulnerable and made those changes and changed the world.

867
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,640
Um, and when we still have a lot of progress to do there, but like, you know, I think we

868
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,840
need to do the same thing with mental health.

869
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:06,840
Absolutely.

870
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,720
Well, I want to get to, you know, what you're doing now, because I think this is the, this

871
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:16,080
is the missing part of the mental health conversation is the post-traumatic growth.

872
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,680
You know, as you said, that doesn't mean that you're in utopia now and you never think about

873
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:25,960
the things that bothered you before, because that's complete BS, but the, the understanding

874
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:31,800
that there is a better version of you on the other side of finding your toolbox of healing

875
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,600
tools, the more resilient, I think that's what resilience is working through struggles.

876
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:40,160
Um, and these people become a beacon of light and you are in just in this conversation alone,

877
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,480
you know, your story and your vulnerability is going to resonate with people.

878
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,840
And some people are going to go, shit, that's, that's me.

879
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,320
I feel that way.

880
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:52,360
And so I think that is such an important part is this, this hope we don't have hope in PTSD.

881
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,600
A lot of times it's, you know, people touring and, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, I'm

882
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:57,600
living with it.

883
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:58,600
You know, it's okay.

884
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,860
But no, I mean, you know, here you are now you transitioned out and you've created a

885
00:57:01,860 --> 00:57:06,000
tool that's going to be, you know, a force multiplier for this, this, uh, mental health

886
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,400
crisis.

887
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,660
So talk to me about, you know, what made you transition out and then was that initial transition

888
00:57:12,660 --> 00:57:14,000
jarring for you?

889
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,320
Because you know, for a lot of us, we've got that purpose.

890
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:21,000
We've got that tribe, you know, we've got identity as a firefighter and a paramedic.

891
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,120
And then one day, you know, your ID doesn't work.

892
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,320
The bay door is closed and you're not anymore.

893
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:26,320
Yeah.

894
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,800
I mean, it was pretty dramatic.

895
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:34,080
You know, like I, at the very end of my career, I was like, I was so drained emotionally that

896
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:40,160
like all I had in the tank was to like make an impact when I was on shift.

897
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:45,640
Like I had to like go high isolate in my room and like not interact with my crew.

898
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,680
Just so I could make sure like if the tones went off, like I could, you know, perform

899
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:57,120
and, um, and I could, but like ultimately I was like, man, I'm done.

900
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:03,960
And like going back, I mean, I could change things, you know, I'd love to do things, but

901
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,200
again, we talk about like the, you can't change the past.

902
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:12,120
And, um, and you know, like ultimately it was just like, I'm done.

903
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,200
And it was jarring, like you said, because I floundered, you know, we moved to Costa

904
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:21,400
Rica and like, I, I attribute like this move was probably the best thing for me.

905
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,520
Um, even though I ended up getting divorced and I still struggled while I was there in

906
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:31,360
ways, um, you know, like I got into like permaculture farming and, uh, cause we had a, we bought

907
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:36,200
a farm and like being out in nature and like planting these plants and like, I would walk

908
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,640
around like touching the trees and like checking out the new fruits that are coming in and

909
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,920
like looking back, that's all mindfulness, right?

910
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:50,120
Like I had this opportunity to grow and like, um, you know, I, I didn't love myself and,

911
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:55,920
um, I learned some self-compassion through doing, you know, my experience down there.

912
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:03,160
And, um, and so then like, you know, I, uh, I came up with a crazy idea for a business

913
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:07,880
idea cause I'm trying to figure out what the fuck I want to do with my life.

914
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,400
And man, was I shamed.

915
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:15,840
Like even my own, you know, wife at the time was like, Oh, this is another one of your

916
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:16,920
stupid ideas.

917
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:18,280
You're going to fail.

918
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,080
Go get a real job.

919
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,160
Um, and everybody around me was like, dude, you're crazy.

920
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:24,160
Like this is stupid.

921
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,760
Like nobody's ever going to be into this.

922
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,760
And um, you know, it was like first time in my life that like, I truly believed in myself

923
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,400
that like, no, I feel like we can make an impact.

924
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,800
Cause I think about how peer support impacted my life and having my brother Dave by my side.

925
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,320
And, but I also understand like the stigma.

926
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:49,160
And when I say the stigma that like truly is within ourselves, like we make our own stigma,

927
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,160
right?

928
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,640
And when you do reach out for help, there's people that love you that will be there.

929
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:59,840
And, and I don't know people and they reach out to me and I still give them that compassion

930
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:05,960
and love, um, for like, Hey man, thanks for, that's really hard to reach out to somebody

931
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,720
and say, I'm struggling.

932
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:08,720
And like, you're not alone.

933
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:09,720
Like I've been there.

934
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:15,320
And so, you know, we started this idea that's like since evolved where, you know, we want

935
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,800
to try to reduce that stigma through, you know, anonymous peer support, right?

936
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:25,040
Where you, you can either reach out to your peer support team or you can anonymously reach

937
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:30,560
out to, to a peer that understands like what you've been through and, um, can be that person

938
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:36,240
that says like, Hey James, like brother, I appreciate you taking the opportunity to be

939
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:37,240
vulnerable with me.

940
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,360
Like I'm here for you.

941
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:39,360
You're not alone.

942
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:44,000
And then recognizing all the holes within peer support teams, right?

943
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,480
Like I, I joke that like we're in the gold rush of peer support because like everybody's

944
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:53,640
trying to get their team going and, um, but there's a lot of holes, James.

945
01:00:53,640 --> 01:01:01,080
And um, so basically like we've made a platform for, for teams to be more efficient and effective

946
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,120
and, um, basically centralize all the processes.

947
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:09,600
And you know, it's, I've had to like, kind of take a step back, right?

948
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,320
Um, and like focusing on my own mental health, you know?

949
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:18,520
Um, but I've had like a really strong team that like totally gets what mental health

950
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:19,520
is.

951
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,440
Um, you know, the gal who designed it is, is a crisis social worker.

952
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,640
Like she's seen that side of it, but then like our developers, his dad was a Chicago

953
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,480
PD and like he's had his own personal, um, mental health struggles.

954
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:37,840
So like the team gets it and like, we care about the people we're serving.

955
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:44,120
And, um, the good news is like people believe in us and, um, and things are progressing

956
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:49,160
and hopefully I can get back into it and, um, get healthy.

957
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,960
But uh, you know, like I said, our struggles are real and you're going to continually go

958
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:57,980
through them, but it's just having people around you that care about you and knowing

959
01:01:57,980 --> 01:02:02,480
that you also care about yourself that, that we can push forward through this.

960
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,800
What are the holes that you're seeing emerge in some of the formation of these peer support

961
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:07,800
groups?

962
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,840
Yeah, that's a good question.

963
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,800
So I think, um, everybody's trying to reinvent the wheel, right?

964
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,720
Um, I look at like where you're at, right?

965
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:21,480
Like Miami Dade fire has like probably one of the most robust mental health programs

966
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:22,480
out there.

967
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:29,360
Um, so my objective is to like, bring people together and like make connections, right?

968
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:34,460
Of like, Hey, you know, San Francisco fire departments doing great things with vetting

969
01:02:34,460 --> 01:02:37,240
their providers, right?

970
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,520
Let's connect them together with departments that are trying to do the same thing and,

971
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,520
and making those connections.

972
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:51,720
Um, so I would say like the biggest holes that like I've seen, um, revolves around communication,

973
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,120
like communications is the number one failure.

974
01:02:54,120 --> 01:03:00,760
Um, I would say like departments aren't tracking, like, is anybody even available?

975
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,320
Like for this person, like nobody's tracking that.

976
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,880
You don't know if a peer supporter is available or not.

977
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,560
So if somebody reaches out, we might lose somebody through the cracks.

978
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:17,040
And ultimately, like we, you know, I, I hate the chiefs that are like data driven.

979
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:22,240
Um, but at the same time, cause these are human beings, like what, what can we, how

980
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:28,600
can we anonymously track some data and trends that we could like be upstream and bring training

981
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:33,960
forward that like can, can help people like work through their, their struggles and kind

982
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:35,600
of lead that horse to water.

983
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,440
Like there's other people out there that are trying to do great things and like shove all

984
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:40,840
this training in our face.

985
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:44,040
But like, I don't know if you use target solutions.

986
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,920
Um, I did back in the day.

987
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:48,920
Fuck.

988
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:50,640
Um, it's a needed thing, right?

989
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,960
Training is important, but like how many of us just checked boxes, right?

990
01:03:54,960 --> 01:04:00,980
So I'm of the opinion, what we do with training is you lead the horse to water, right?

991
01:04:00,980 --> 01:04:03,100
Don't force people to do things.

992
01:04:03,100 --> 01:04:09,040
And if we're noticing a trend and, and relationship issues within our agency, maybe we throw out

993
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,800
a blog that says like, Hey, here's some great articles on relationship issues.

994
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:20,000
Or um, like you talk about a lot lately, like your, um, you know, shift schedules and lack

995
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:25,040
of sleep, like throwing that out there of like, here's healthier ways to get good sleep

996
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:29,640
and you know, stop drinking shit ton of coffee and stop drinking.

997
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:34,800
Like, you know, like bringing this stuff forward, um, that, that is where like anonymous data

998
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,160
can come in and make a difference.

999
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:38,160
Yeah.

1000
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:42,000
With, with the shift schedule, I keep getting, you know, Oh, I need to see the data.

1001
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,440
I need to see white papers.

1002
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:47,400
And firstly, that probably means that you've looked and you haven't found it.

1003
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:48,920
So there's your first sign.

1004
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:50,600
But secondly, I'm all for it.

1005
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:54,640
You know, you've got a new drug, for example, you got a new defibrillation level that they're

1006
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:55,640
trying.

1007
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:56,640
All right.

1008
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:57,640
I want to see the data for that.

1009
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:58,640
Why are we doing 720?

1010
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:04,000
But if you want data to show, for example, that a 42 hour work week is healthier than

1011
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:09,800
a 56, then you're just saying, I want to see a data because that's the words of a coward,

1012
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:11,240
because that's just fucking common sense.

1013
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,280
So now you're just putting up a deliberate barrier because you haven't got the balls

1014
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,260
to actually, you know, look at it and go, Oh, that would be better.

1015
01:05:18,260 --> 01:05:22,840
And our cops work 40 hours, you know, and everyone else works 40 hours and everyone

1016
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,520
that's working for us is falling apart mentally and physically.

1017
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:27,320
So clearly we need to do something.

1018
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,000
So that has become a nails on the chalkboard statement.

1019
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:34,500
Now it's, you know, there's times where absolutely I need to see a data as appropriate.

1020
01:05:34,500 --> 01:05:40,520
But even with the psychedelics, you have 2000 years worth of studies in a lot of this plant

1021
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:41,520
medicine.

1022
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:43,520
You know, what's the latest thing now?

1023
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:44,520
Mushrooms.

1024
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:46,360
I've started taking mushroom tinctures.

1025
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:50,440
And again, the Asian medicine has been using that for millennia.

1026
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:55,740
So this is the arrogance of modern day science is yes, I want the person who's designing

1027
01:05:55,740 --> 01:06:00,840
the plane that I'm going to flow on fly on, excuse me, to, you know, know the data, understand

1028
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:01,840
the math.

1029
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,800
But there's a lot of things where, as I say, if I step out in front of a bus, I don't need

1030
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,040
to study to show me that I'm going to get squashed.

1031
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,160
You know, there's a certain point where you got to put common sense.

1032
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:16,240
And if you're using that phrase, I need to see the data as an excuse to not put the fucking

1033
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,360
work in and shame on you.

1034
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:19,360
Yeah.

1035
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:24,560
And I think, you know, another huge problem, um, if any chiefs watching this, I'm going

1036
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:31,720
to put them on blasts is that, you know, we'll spend 10, $20,000 on, on some product that

1037
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:38,200
like sits in the back corner of the training station, you know, like that isn't being used.

1038
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:46,920
But like, if we can spend $5,000 on a resiliency class, um, that could impact our people, like

1039
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,560
they're like, no, like we don't have the budget for it.

1040
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:50,560
Sorry.

1041
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,480
And I call it bullshit because like, if you, there's some data that, and I know we're

1042
01:06:54,480 --> 01:07:00,680
talking data that comes out like Steve Farina out of the British Columbia professional firefighters.

1043
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:01,680
Yeah.

1044
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:02,680
Good dude.

1045
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:08,840
Um, like how expensive and on, like if somebody goes out with PTSD, like I did, which was

1046
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:14,300
a duty related PTSD, how much does that cost our agencies and overtime?

1047
01:07:14,300 --> 01:07:17,160
How much does that cost our labor and industry programs?

1048
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,960
Like throughout the country, like it's a lot, right?

1049
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:27,220
So if we can invest five, 10, even a hundred thousand dollars in, in something and trying

1050
01:07:27,220 --> 01:07:33,520
to make something better and, and preventing our people from getting to that point, like

1051
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:38,400
it's your, your return on investment is huge, right?

1052
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:47,040
Like if, if I, I imagine my, my, you know, PTSD is cost my department in the state, like

1053
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,120
probably close to a million dollars, I bet.

1054
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:50,120
Right.

1055
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:51,520
That's, that's significant.

1056
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:57,160
Um, so I think we need to change our perspective on what budgets are and like, why we do things

1057
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,200
like we need to rethink, um, mental health.

1058
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:06,040
Like I respect, um, West Metro out of, out of color, Colorado is doing really good things

1059
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:11,080
with mental health, that whole Colorado, um, Denver Metro is like crushing it.

1060
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:18,080
Um, but they, like their number one strategic plan is, is to put mental and physical health

1061
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,080
and wellness as their number one strategic plan.

1062
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:28,160
And so I challenge any leader listening to this to like rethink what are your priorities

1063
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:33,160
in, in, in, in your culture within, in your department.

1064
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:38,040
I actually had Chris Macklin from South Metro on, and again, I'm talking about all the proactive

1065
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:42,440
elements, you know, having strength and conditioning coaches on staff and, you know, I think mental

1066
01:08:42,440 --> 01:08:47,200
health counselors on staff, which is again, that is the model to actually hire someone.

1067
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:52,480
And I've said this recently, you know, I went through a lot of, um, yeah, four testing because

1068
01:08:52,480 --> 01:08:56,320
I worked for four departments in 14 years, just cause geography took me to the West coast

1069
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:58,120
and then back to the East.

1070
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:05,680
And that was four psych evals, the Minnesota multifaceted personality interview MMPI, which

1071
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:10,800
the, like every single person in the psychology space I've spoken to since says that is never

1072
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,500
meant to be a standalone test for a first responder.

1073
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:15,200
So that's bullshit.

1074
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:19,860
Three polygraphs are lied through, um, again, smoke and mirrors, bullshit.

1075
01:09:19,860 --> 01:09:26,920
And so right there, just the money you waste on those two tests alone could fund, you know,

1076
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:28,100
a mental health counselor.

1077
01:09:28,100 --> 01:09:34,000
So imagine as a, as a new guy or girl went through probation, that they had X amount

1078
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:35,520
of counseling sessions.

1079
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,360
So you get to start addressing the things that we brought into the profession.

1080
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:44,000
You normalize the mental health conversation and you remove the barrier to entry because,

1081
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,280
you know, are they in network?

1082
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:48,560
Can I even afford them is a big problem too.

1083
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,040
So you know, that's what they're doing really, really well, but what they haven't done yet

1084
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,880
is change their work week, but I know they're in talks to do it.

1085
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,120
So that is going to be amazing because that again, you know, sadly the elephant in the

1086
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:05,700
room on cancer or mental health on testosterone depletion and all these things is sleep deprivation,

1087
01:10:05,700 --> 01:10:07,640
but that's the major part.

1088
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:11,080
So if they're able to address that, they're going to see, you know, they're going to be

1089
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:13,240
really, really progressive by that point.

1090
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:15,200
Well, I mean, let's be honest.

1091
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:21,640
Like if first responder agencies, specifically fire departments or followers, like nobody

1092
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,000
wants to be the first to do something.

1093
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,360
You know, I think of like Chicago fire department, right?

1094
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,720
They, they have like the black and red trucks, right?

1095
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:36,760
And like everybody followed that or like New York's got like black bunker gear, right?

1096
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:41,160
And like, you know, everybody in our area, like started switching to black bunker gear,

1097
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:42,160
right?

1098
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,560
And I think you're going to see that with mental health as well.

1099
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,720
Like you have people like in Florida, like you guys are super progressive people in Colorado

1100
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:52,640
that are leading the way.

1101
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:57,400
And it's just going to take a little while for that to spread and people will follow

1102
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,200
suit with like some of these best practices.

1103
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:01,200
Absolutely.

1104
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,520
Well, talk to me then about Ciento.

1105
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,320
So you've gone through this journey, you know, you're having these ideas, you're being shot

1106
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,360
down by everyone that you thought loved you.

1107
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:14,440
So walk me through the creation of this app and then, you know, let's talk about the features

1108
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:16,320
that people will see there.

1109
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:17,320
Yeah.

1110
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:24,760
So I, I was having, I was very, when I moved to Costa Rica, I made some really close friends,

1111
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:26,600
like really quickly.

1112
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:31,600
But I was very open and vulnerable compared to like my friendships that I had made prior

1113
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:36,500
to that of like, Hey man, I struggle.

1114
01:11:36,500 --> 01:11:42,160
If you see me getting like XYZ, like, please like call me out or reach out to me.

1115
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:45,160
And if you notice like I'm isolating and not calling you all of a sudden, like, please

1116
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:46,840
reach out to me.

1117
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,960
And so that's where I met my co-founder Jason.

1118
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:52,720
He's like the nicest Canadian ever.

1119
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:57,120
That's nice, because they're all nice.

1120
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:01,360
And so I was like having a really tough day and like struggling with depression.

1121
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:07,360
It's like, man, I wish I could just like, you know, I wanted to go into tech after I

1122
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:08,360
left the fire service.

1123
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:10,280
Cause like that was the only thing I could think of.

1124
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:16,000
And it's like, I'm going to make an app where I can like talk about how I feel like openly

1125
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,600
and like then the page catches on fire and it like disappears.

1126
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:21,760
It's like, that's how it all started.

1127
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:27,920
And then like it evolved into like, you know, being like this community sense of anonymous

1128
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:32,600
community where people can, you know, express their feelings openly and like have that shared

1129
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:33,600
connection.

1130
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:39,040
And then like we learned that like so many departments, like we talked about some of

1131
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:46,640
the holes that these agencies have, like technology should never replace human connection.

1132
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:53,800
I think what technology can do is provide rapid access to a peer support team to get

1133
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:59,040
that human connection and then utilize peer support to bridge the gap until you get into

1134
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,720
a provider where you can like really start to work through your problems.

1135
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,240
So you know, we focus on that.

1136
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:10,920
You know, there's like teams like have all different types of processes, right?

1137
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,640
Like there's all these different systems scattered everywhere.

1138
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:18,520
And so we saw like a hole there that we could fill.

1139
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:24,880
And you know, so we unlike people that are doing great trying to do great things out

1140
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,280
there, they like build something and then like force it down your throat, like by this,

1141
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:33,520
you know, we said like, hey, you know, go into departments like yours, James, and like

1142
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,120
being like, what are you struggling with?

1143
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,260
Like what do you need?

1144
01:13:38,260 --> 01:13:39,760
What do you want?

1145
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:46,480
And we really worked closely with agencies across the United States to like build something

1146
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:49,480
that's super impactful and that actually works.

1147
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:55,000
You know, I there is a firefighter is like, dude, what you guys built like two plus two.

1148
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,140
It's like super easy, right?

1149
01:13:57,140 --> 01:13:58,240
Because that's what we want.

1150
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,480
Like how much you think of like Target Solutions is complicated, right?

1151
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:03,280
You have to like go do all this shit.

1152
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,240
Like, so we've tried to make it really user friendly.

1153
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:11,840
But then at the same time, recognize that like not every person wants to go on a wellness

1154
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,680
app and like look at these videos and like why aren't you know, there's companies out

1155
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,720
there that are already doing that, but people aren't using it.

1156
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:19,920
But who is going to use it?

1157
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:20,920
Right.

1158
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:22,280
It's these peer support teams.

1159
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:27,660
And so we're I say from like the push of a button until you're healthy, like we want

1160
01:14:27,660 --> 01:14:29,400
to be by your side.

1161
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,240
And so people know that they're not alone.

1162
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,080
So the user themselves, what will they actually be able to find on the app?

1163
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,120
Yeah, I mean, like they have that sense of community, right?

1164
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,920
That's where it all started.

1165
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:47,120
So they'll have that they'll have, you know, the ability to connect with peer support at

1166
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,080
the push of a button.

1167
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,160
The functionality behind it's awesome.

1168
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,240
And it works really effectively.

1169
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:59,280
You know, something unique with us is that, you know, I got a I got a phone call at like

1170
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:05,120
nine o'clock, like some of the early departments, I gave out my personal number and said, like,

1171
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,600
hey, if you're struggling, like I'm here to listen.

1172
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:13,560
I got a call at like nine o'clock and he's like, dude, I got like this relationship issue

1173
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:15,440
and I don't want to divulge too much.

1174
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:16,440
Right.

1175
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:20,620
But the concept was like, I don't want to go talk to my peer support team about this.

1176
01:15:20,620 --> 01:15:23,560
The rumor mills big in my peer support team.

1177
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:24,560
Can you help me?

1178
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:25,680
And I was like, yeah, let me connect you.

1179
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:27,280
Like I was struggling myself.

1180
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:34,020
Like when I'm struggling now, I learned to say no to things and kind of push it off to

1181
01:15:34,020 --> 01:15:35,020
somebody else.

1182
01:15:35,020 --> 01:15:42,040
Like I had somebody I believed in that that had the capacity to help this individual in

1183
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:46,400
realizing like the that that individual is not alone.

1184
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:50,560
Like that is out there big time and not everybody trusts their own peer support team.

1185
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:56,200
So give them the ability to like connect with a network of trained peer supporters that

1186
01:15:56,200 --> 01:16:01,400
understand what they're going through still and then can kind of lead that person to like

1187
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:03,620
a higher level of care.

1188
01:16:03,620 --> 01:16:06,260
And talk to me about vetting the peer support.

1189
01:16:06,260 --> 01:16:13,000
One of the things that I've heard sadly, like more recently is, you know, in half our peer

1190
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:15,000
support team members are alcoholics.

1191
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,680
You know, so you've got people on these teams that just shouldn't be on there yet.

1192
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,960
They haven't kind of gone through that crucible and come out the other side truly as a beacon

1193
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:24,140
of light.

1194
01:16:24,140 --> 01:16:28,560
So how are you able to make sure that the people that are receiving these cries for

1195
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:29,560
help are the right person?

1196
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,760
Yeah, that's a great question.

1197
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:38,920
I think it's like an overarching question because you can say the same thing about providers

1198
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:43,080
and culturally competent providers or whatever the fuck people want to say.

1199
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:46,060
But I mean, it's not a company's.

1200
01:16:46,060 --> 01:16:51,760
I think the total wrong approach is to say as a company like James, you need to go see

1201
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:56,120
this peer supporter because they're good or you need to go see this clinician because

1202
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,360
we have vetted them.

1203
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:01,060
So we kind of push that onto the agencies.

1204
01:17:01,060 --> 01:17:06,080
Like you I don't think any company should be the ones vetting individuals.

1205
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:11,260
But what we need to do is to make sure people are healthy and safe and that they're having

1206
01:17:11,260 --> 01:17:16,720
good experiences that they can then, you know, relate that back to their agencies of like

1207
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:18,880
what kind of experiences somebody going through.

1208
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:25,560
So we do push that back on the agency to really make sure that they're being proactive and

1209
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,360
vetting their team and and that they are good fits.

1210
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,880
And like you said, there's always going to be bad apples no matter what you do.

1211
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:39,600
It's just up to the agency to really, you know, get those bad apples out of there.

1212
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:44,660
And are the people accessing their own peer support team or they actually able to access

1213
01:17:44,660 --> 01:17:48,160
other departments, peer support teams too, if they want anonymity?

1214
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,320
Yeah, exactly.

1215
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:51,320
Anonymity is huge.

1216
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:52,320
Right.

1217
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:55,920
And so so we it can go either way.

1218
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:56,920
Right.

1219
01:17:56,920 --> 01:18:00,680
We want to give anything any time with mental health, we want to have all these different

1220
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,800
nets to catch people.

1221
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:09,520
And at the same time, like you as an individual should make the choice of what you need.

1222
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:10,520
Right.

1223
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:11,960
You know better than anybody else.

1224
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:13,760
I can't tell you what you need.

1225
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:15,920
So you can go either way.

1226
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:21,840
You can either reach out to your own agency or other people within our network.

1227
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:27,560
And that's we've had a huge buy in from other agencies.

1228
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:32,920
And you know, there's I can't say out loud right now some stuff, but like there's some

1229
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:38,040
big departments that like believe in what we're doing and are joining us in our mission

1230
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:40,600
to to save a life ultimately.

1231
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:41,800
Beautiful.

1232
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,120
So where can people find it?

1233
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,120
Yeah.

1234
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:45,600
So we've got a new website.

1235
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:50,320
I don't know when this is coming out and being aired, but we got a new website coming out.

1236
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:55,640
It's called Ciento S I E N T O dot I O.

1237
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:58,880
So again, this was the coined in Costa Rica.

1238
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:05,560
And like we were thinking of a name and like what better word than a Spanish word for I

1239
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:06,560
feel.

1240
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,480
So that's where our company comes from.

1241
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:11,040
The name Ciento is a Spanish word.

1242
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:14,880
And I'm fairly active on LinkedIn.

1243
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:21,880
So anybody can find me there and like we'll be coming out like my team's launching our

1244
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,320
second version of the platform in September.

1245
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,480
So keep your eyes peeled for a new website.

1246
01:19:27,480 --> 01:19:32,680
Don't don't judge our current website that might have been built by a firefighter.

1247
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:34,280
So it's not the best.

1248
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:36,800
But yeah, no, it's it's really exciting.

1249
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:43,440
And ultimately, like I said, like my my goal is like if we and I tell my team this, like

1250
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:45,720
is our North Star is to save a life.

1251
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:50,960
If we can save one life, like I can sleep at night and feel like we accomplished our

1252
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:51,960
mission.

1253
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:52,960
Beautiful.

1254
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:54,840
Well, I want to say thank you so much.

1255
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:58,840
I mean, firstly, obviously talking about the product that you developed as a solution,

1256
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:01,400
but also for your courageous vulnerability.

1257
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:07,840
I think as I mentioned before, you know, these stories really resonate deeply with people.

1258
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:11,560
But also there's an acknowledgement that when you're revisiting some of this, that this

1259
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:13,140
is opening some wounds too.

1260
01:20:13,140 --> 01:20:16,880
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1261
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:18,520
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1262
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:20,680
No, it's an honor, James.

1263
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,880
And I love what you're doing and happy to support you and your mission and and to the

1264
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:26,880
audience.

1265
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,880
Like I think I'll end it with this.

1266
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:34,400
Like, you know, you're you're not alone in what you're going through.

1267
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,460
If you're struggling right now, you're not alone.

1268
01:20:37,460 --> 01:20:39,760
It's OK to not be OK.

1269
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:46,000
And just have some self-compassion for yourself and recognizing that you're a human being

1270
01:20:46,000 --> 01:21:10,200
and people love you and you need to love yourself just as much as you love others.