1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,200 Welcome guys to episode 189 of Behind the Shield podcast. 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,560 My name is James Gearing and I am so excited to bring to you this week 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600 Andy Puddicombe, who is the founder of the app Headspace, 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,800 the meditation app that you've heard me rave about in other episodes. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,400 So I am going to talk about his app for a second. 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,800 This is not a paid commercial by any means. 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,400 I just want to underline what I, you know, my opinion of it. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,880 This is the app that I talk about when I try to sleep in the station. 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,240 You know, obviously your mind is going a million miles a minute. 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,320 I use this app, the 10 minute segments to deregulate, to bring myself down, 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,160 to be able to get some quality sleep between these calls. 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,480 I use this app as well when I come back from a high stress call 13 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:46,040 where your your whole body is running a thousand miles a minute by that point. 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,520 It's again deregulate and bring everything down, 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,520 whether it's to go back to sleep or just to come back down to a basal level again. 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,040 So I highly recommend this. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:56,840 There is a 10 day free trial. 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,200 There's free content on there as well. 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,600 And not a paid commercial, like I said, I just in return for Andy coming on the show, 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,600 I want to make sure that I highlight you guys visiting this app and trying it 21 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,480 because it's absolutely worth your while. 22 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,120 So with that being said, as I always say, please go to your podcast app, 23 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,360 rate the show, share the show, and most importantly, use social media 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,880 and spread the word about each and every one of these amazing guests, 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,360 because every single person that donates their time and talk to us 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,680 has so much valuable information that could literally save a life 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,320 if we get it to the right person. 28 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,960 So with that being said, I introduce to you Andy Puticum. Enjoy. 29 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:52,120 I want to start by saying thank you so much for coming on the show. 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,920 It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,400 All right. So where are we finding you on planet Earth this morning? 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,800 This morning, I am in the middle of a mission. 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:07,800 This morning, I am in, I'm actually just down the road from my home 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,000 in Santa Monica in California. 35 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,800 Beautiful. And obviously by your accent, that's not where you were born. 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,480 So where were you born? 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,800 So I was born in the UK. 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,200 I was actually born in in North London, but I grew up in the southwest of England, 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:23,680 very close to Bristol. 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,440 And I know we were chatting just now, I thought I might have heard 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,520 just a touch of the southwest in your accent. 42 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Yes. Yeah, it's kind of hidden, I think, because of the Florida thing. 43 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,080 So their accent sounds similar, but I'm from Bath originally. 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,000 You are? OK. Yeah. 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,160 So I see Corshams. You went to school in Keynesham, didn't you? 46 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:43,840 I did. Yeah. Yeah. 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,080 I was banging in the middle of Bristol and Bath, but I know, I know, I know Corsham well. 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,000 Yeah. So the first question I'd love to ask, just to get a kind of background, 49 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,960 what was your family unit like? 50 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,320 What did your parents do and how many siblings did you have? 51 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,960 So my parents were together till I was about 10. 52 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,720 And then they went there, they're separate ways. 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,640 My mum worked as, goodness me, she worked as a teacher 54 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:13,360 and then she trained as a hypnotherapist. 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,680 She started working in stress management. 56 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:20,280 So quite sort of a similar, a similar thing to what I do now. 57 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,280 My dad worked looking after the elderly. 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:32,280 In care homes. And I had one, I still do have one sister who's a little bit, 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:33,720 a little bit older than me. 60 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,160 She's now married, living in near London with one child. 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,800 Brilliant. And whereabouts in North London were you born? 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Just to go back to that for a moment. 63 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,800 In Barnet. 64 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:51,040 OK. Nice. I worked, I mean, I lived in Highgate for a few years, so it's kind of that way. 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,440 All right. Well, then, so obviously, what was your family unit like? 66 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,960 And so obviously with the profession that your mum did, 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:06,200 did she introduce you to meditation when you were still, you know, the age of a young age, I guess I'm trying to say. 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,200 Yeah, no, very much so. 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,280 It was actually a direct consequence of them getting divorced. 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,120 You know, she was struggling and feeling pretty stressed out. 71 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,240 So she was learning how to meditate. 72 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,640 And we just went along with her, James. 73 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,440 So I was probably about 10 or 11 at the time. 74 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:31,120 Brilliant. And then what about I know you ended up being an athlete as far as the circus arts. 75 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,400 What kind of sports were you into when you were young, the school age? 76 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:43,840 Yes. What I lacked in academic prowess, I sort of made up for enthusiasm in sports. 77 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:48,960 So I really, gymnastics was probably like the first thing that I did 78 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,440 with any degree of sort of, you know, regularity, intensity. 79 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:58,880 But once I was at high school, I played on the football team, as in the soccer team, 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,840 on the tennis team, athletics, basketball. 81 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,440 I did pretty much anything I could get my hands on. 82 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:15,120 Brilliant. Yeah. And with the gymnastics, I know there's a visualization component to headspace. 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,200 Were you introduced to any of that when you were doing that sport? 84 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,800 To some degree, I think I'm pretty old now. 85 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,360 That was a long time ago. 86 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,720 But I think it wasn't really even talked about as it definitely wasn't talked about as meditation. 87 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,320 It wasn't even talked about as visualization. 88 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,800 I think it was just we were always encouraged to sort of play it through in the mind 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,080 before trying to execute any particular kind of move. 90 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,960 Kind of what's that going to look like? What's that going to feel like? 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:51,280 And I'm sure kind of some of that proved to prove beneficial later on in the meditation. 92 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:54,320 Right. Now, what about career aspirations when you were in school? 93 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,520 What did you dream of becoming? 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,800 I'm pretty sure it wasn't a monk. 95 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,280 I mean, I don't remember. 96 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:04,640 I don't remember clearly. 97 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:13,440 I think I was definitely hoping for a career in sports, not necessarily as a professional athlete, 98 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,560 but just somewhere within sports. 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,200 By the time I was 18, I was working as a personal trainer at 21. 100 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,600 I was studying sports science at university. 101 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,840 I was really all in on sports. 102 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:32,000 So I wasn't too sure where it would take me. 103 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,360 But yeah, that was what I was thinking. 104 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,160 Right. Now, I know you've talked about this in the past, 105 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,200 a significant event happening in your personal life that then kind of started you on the 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,840 path towards becoming a monk. 107 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,240 Is that something you're comfortable telling the audience here? 108 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,680 Yeah, sure. 109 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,200 And look, Jamie, I mean, this is, you know, I'm sure you guys must see situations 110 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,240 kind of like this all too often. 111 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,760 But I was standing with a group of friends outside a club. 112 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,400 It was Christmas Eve or early Christmas morning. 113 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,720 And a drunk driver came flying down the road and we were just all stood on the sidewalk. 114 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,040 And he mounted the pavement and crashed into the group. 115 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,240 I was very lucky. 116 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,480 I think there were three of us out of about 20 that didn't get struck. 117 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:30,960 But it killed two people and put another 12 in intensive care. 118 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:39,200 So it was, I think for everybody, it was a massive wake up call at a very early age. 119 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:44,960 And I think it impacted all of us sort of differently, you know, but for me personally, 120 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,640 it definitely tapped into thoughts about the fragility of life and thoughts about 121 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,720 the meaning of life and what it meant to live a life of purpose. 122 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,080 Was that in Bristol? 123 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,120 That was, yeah, that was actually that was in Keynesham. 124 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,120 That was Keynesham Rugby Club. 125 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:03,760 Oh, really? 126 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Yeah. 127 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:10,000 So how did you initially process that trauma? Did it send you down 128 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,320 a path of some negative coping mechanisms originally? 129 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,320 Yeah, I mean, I didn't just because of I think probably having grown up in sport, 130 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:25,760 I didn't necessarily go to, you know, the thing go down the drug route or anything like that. 131 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,840 I could very easily have done, I think, had I been in a slightly different circle, 132 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:30,880 the friends at the time. 133 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,440 Definitely, I tried all the usual kind of stuff, maybe drinking a little bit more and 134 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:43,760 going out more often, distracting myself a bit more, eventually trying to kind of go away, 135 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,440 like hoping that I could maybe if I move to another place, if I went abroad, 136 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,800 maybe kind of just getting away would kind of make it feel different. 137 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,800 And none of the truth is none of those things, you know, they all they all added to my experience 138 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,480 and retrospectively, I'm incredibly grateful for doing them. But none of them really shifted that, 139 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:10,720 you know, those underlying feelings and the restless quality of mind developed through that 140 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,520 that experience. 141 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,760 Right. Yeah, I've had some people that on the show that, you know, one exercise became her coping 142 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:24,000 mechanism, but it became an infatuation and ended up being she surpassed the healing part and then 143 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,280 went too far. Another one of my guests is a firefighter and again, that profession distracted 144 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,880 him for about 10 years. But then after 10 years, when that kind of really the novelty wore off, 145 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,920 that's when they crept back in again. So it's interesting that whether it's that, whether it's 146 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,320 you know, geographical, that thing between our ears is there, whether we like it or not. 147 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:52,640 It is, it is and it will always follow us. I think that was that was the beauty of going 148 00:09:52,640 --> 00:10:01,760 of heading off to, you know, heading off to the Himalayas and going on that journey of meditation 149 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:08,720 out there, there is there is no distraction. You know, the sitting with oneself, you know, there 150 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:14,080 is there is nothing to distract oneself with. There is no one really kind of to talk to or get 151 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:23,200 away, sort of get away from one's own thinking. So it kind of asks you as an individual to sit and 152 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,800 be present with the mind as it is. And that's the good stuff, the happy thoughts is the difficult 153 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:36,320 stuff, the challenging thoughts is the upset is, is everything. And I think, sort of stepping out 154 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,480 of the distraction of everyday life, yeah, can have a very sort of profound effect, whether that's 155 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,760 for a short period of time in a day or whether it's sort of, you know, for a decade of your life. 156 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:52,880 Yeah. And what was it that actually made you make that decision? Like, do you remember the moment? 157 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,480 Because Keynesham is not the kind of place where it's like, what are you going to do today? Well, 158 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,680 I might just become a monk because that's kind of that's what my dad did, you know. 159 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,640 Yeah. Well, all your friends in Korsham weren't heading off to the monastery, really? 160 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:14,320 There was no hair in the entire city of Korsham, we were all shaved. Yeah, it's not, it's definitely 161 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:22,240 not the most obvious, obvious route I'll grant you. And yeah, and it kind of almost mystifies me 162 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:30,080 retrospectively. I think, obviously, having been around some of that growing up, and you know, 163 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:37,040 I've been exposed to meditation, I've got a lot of meditation classes and meditation groups. So 164 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:45,440 definitely that was kind of around. I've been exposed to some of it at university, through 165 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,920 a few friends and a girlfriend who was kind of, you know, really into sort of Buddhism and stuff. 166 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:57,680 So there were a bunch of influences. And as for the actually making the decision, I, 167 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:03,600 I, you know, people talk a lot about callings in life. And I think they can take many sort of 168 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:10,000 shapes and forms. For me, personally, this was a, this was a legit calling in the sense that 169 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,200 I hadn't really thought about it as an idea. But when the thought came to mind, it was like, 170 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,800 it was the only thing that had ever made sense. And I couldn't, it just felt like I couldn't 171 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:29,440 really do anything else. It wouldn't have made sense to do anything different. So I just went 172 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,680 along with it. And yeah, I quit, quit university and flew off to India. 173 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,440 Amazing. And then I know you've told the story on other podcasts, interviews and articles. So 174 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,760 if you could just give us an overview of how long you were there and what your average day looked 175 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,800 like during that time. 176 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,520 Yes, I went off. I mean, it's a weird thing, isn't it? You're going to be a Buddhist monk back in 177 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:57,520 those days, there was no, there was no internet. So, you know, I had my trusted lonely planet 178 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:04,720 directing me to basically where the Dalai Lama lived in, in northern India at the time. 179 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,560 And so I just sort of headed up in that direction and I found a, 180 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,560 found a retreat center and a monastery and I started to get a stay in there for a while. 181 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:18,000 I started to get a sense of what aspects of the training kind of interested me most. And it was, 182 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,840 it was definitely meditation. I trained as a, as a novice monk in the Burmese tradition. I took 183 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:31,680 full ordination in the Tibetan tradition. I was probably, probably away overall for about 10 years, 184 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:38,000 not as a fully ordained monk all that time, training as a, as a lay person first, then as a 185 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:45,360 novice monk and then as a fully ordained monk. But yeah, I spent about 10, 10 years overseas and 186 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:53,600 it was an incredible, it was an incredible experience. Every day is, I want to say every 187 00:13:53,600 --> 00:14:01,120 day is different. As a monk, every day is the same. If you're in a monastery, then, like a 188 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,920 working monastery, then there's a balance of meditation and work, work being sort of cleaning 189 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,560 and cooking and just looking after the sort of general running of the place. If you're in a 190 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:18,880 retreat monastery, if you're in a retreat context, then yeah, you're, you're training, you're, 191 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:26,960 you're meditating sort of all day, every day. So sort of in Burma, that meant sort of nine hours 192 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,000 of seated meditation a day, nine hours of walking meditation a day in the Tibetan monasteries. It 193 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:38,000 was maybe kind of closer to 14 hours of seated meditation a day, it depended monastery to 194 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,880 monastery. But retreat was the thing that I kind of enjoyed the most and found most fulfilling. 195 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,920 Right. And the interesting thing, cause I heard you talking on one of the other podcasts, it was the, 196 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,880 god, I'm forgetting the name of it now, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, 197 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:04,400 wearable technology company. Oh, whoop. Whoop. That was it. Whoop. And it kind of reminded me, 198 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,680 because what I've loved about Headspace, and I've talked about it literally for years, I think I 199 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:14,480 just renewed my subscription for the third or fourth time. But it's so, so good for, you know, 200 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,680 my profession and a lot of people that are in associated professions, but we are kind of, 201 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,800 you know, just, we go all in on a lot of things. And obviously this profession, you have to, 202 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,080 otherwise your, you know, lives are at stake. But when you think of meditation, your first mind is 203 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:36,160 exactly what you've just described. And I think that puts off, you know, 99.9% of the people, 204 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,400 but it's the same as me saying, oh, I want to kick a football around with my son. Oh, but I don't 205 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:45,680 play as good as, you know, poor Gascoigne. So what's the point? You know? So, so it's interesting 206 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,600 hearing that. And then, and then obviously looking at Headspace now with the way you've 207 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,280 partitioned it, because now it gives that, removes that barrier to entry and that fear of, you know, 208 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,800 sitting on a cold floor for 10 hours a day in a robe and puts it into, you can do it on the plane, 209 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,440 the train, in the fire station and totally bridges that gap. Yeah. I mean, hopefully in the 210 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,560 amount of people on the platform suggested that it has broken down a lot of barriers, a lot of 211 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:18,480 obstacles for people. I do think there's also a big sort of misconception in the West, you know, 212 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,960 there's these two words, meditation and mindfulness that are often used interchangeably. And I think 213 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:30,240 people often, when they think of meditation, their mind immediately goes to a monk, nun, yogi, 214 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,200 sitting cross-legged on the floor and the meditation kind of component. And I'll talk a bit about the 215 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,680 meditation in a minute and why it doesn't have to be that way. But they kind of jump over the 216 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,880 mindfulness component. And really, we only meditate so that we can familiarize ourselves 217 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,520 with mindfulness so that we can then apply that to the rest of our life, whether that's 218 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:56,320 sort of first responders or whatever kind of we might do in life. It's not, we don't meditate to 219 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,520 get good at sitting still with our eyes closed. So we're familiarizing ourselves with a particular 220 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,840 quality of mind, of calm, of clarity, so we can take that into any situation in life. And for me, 221 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,720 that's the real kind of value, the real benefit. And it's often the thing that's sort of ignored 222 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,960 because people just focus on the meditation. So it's almost like, okay, so we have this 223 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,960 mindfulness, this ability to be more present in our life, which is going to help us in every 224 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:28,560 aspect of our life. But then we need an environment, we need a tool, a skill that we can actually 225 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:33,920 train in to get better at being more mindful in our life. And that's all meditation is really. So 226 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,800 here, when we created the app, it was kind of how do we create the most compelling invitation 227 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:45,120 for meditation so people can get a direct experience of what it feels like to be present, 228 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:51,680 to be less distracted. And so they could then get the benefit of that in everyday life. So my hope 229 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:58,400 is that as people use the platform and as, you know, just as a society, kind of our education 230 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,680 improves around what it means to be sort of more mindful and how meditation can help us be more 231 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:10,080 mindful, people start to see how it's not something separate from life. Actually, it's an integral 232 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,520 part of every single moment of our entire life. Yeah, yeah. One of my closing questions on the 233 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,240 show is always what do you do to decompress? And there's several things that come up over and over 234 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,640 again. One is spending time with their kids. Another one is being out in nature, whether it's 235 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:31,200 hunting, fishing, you know, hiking. But all these things are them being present. And I think that's 236 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,600 the thing. You go to a restaurant, especially here in America, you know, you're sitting down 237 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,200 and not only are you trying to have conversation with your family, you've got the noise from all 238 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,200 the other tables around you, you've got 500 televisions all playing different stations 239 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,920 flashing at you, you've got your cell phones on the table, you know, and so it's so hard just to 240 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:53,280 be present. And that's what I found with this is it's kind of like the 60-minute CrossFit workout 241 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,760 or the 10-minute kettlebell workout. That's your meditation, but then that applies to, God forbid, 242 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,240 I've got to climb 18 floors to go get a kid out of a building. That's when the application is. 243 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,480 Absolutely. Yeah, for me, it's like going to the gym. If I run on the treadmill, it's not because I 244 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,640 love running on the treadmill, because I want to get good at running on a treadmill. It's because 245 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,840 I want to be fit and functional in my life and be able to do all the things I love to do. And it's 246 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:26,720 interesting. I meet a lot of people who say, kind of, look, nature is my meditation or running is 247 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:34,720 my meditation. And look, that holds to a point in the sense that, yes, it can bring about a similar 248 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,640 kind of experience, but equally, it's really easy to go out running and in our mind just to be ticking 249 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:46,240 off a to-do list for the day, to be thinking about a conversation we had the other day, or to be 250 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,520 walking in nature, immersed in the most beautiful place in the world, and yet to be thinking about, 251 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,880 you know, what's happening at work next week, or an argument we have with a friend or something 252 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:05,520 like that. And even if we have sort of a discipline like running or swimming, that's fine. And it's 253 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:11,200 great if it brings about the quality of calm and decompression. But what happens when we get injured? 254 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:18,000 What happens when we can't engage in that thing? So it's all those things I think are amazing, 255 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,320 and they can be really beneficial, but they become even more beneficial when we're able to 256 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,600 be fully present. So when we are playing with our kids, for example, we're not half with our kids 257 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,800 and half on our phone, half thinking about what they want and half thinking about an email that 258 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,480 we need to send. Instead, we are fully kind of present with them. And I feel like true decompression 259 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:45,600 kind of happens when we are able to let go of all that stuff and be fully present in the body where 260 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:51,040 we are in that moment. Absolutely. And I want to explore the carryover and all the different, 261 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,920 you know, external and internal stresses as well. But just to kind of connect the dots. So from 262 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:05,920 the full-time, you know, actually practicing monk, what made you come back to the UK? And then 263 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,600 more importantly, really, what made you take that expanded practice and realize that you could 264 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,760 condense it and bridge the gap from people that really hadn't entered that world before? 265 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,920 Yeah, I think it was a dawning realization, you know, that there was this skill that 266 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,400 could be incredibly beneficial to a lot of people, but nobody really kind of had access to it. 267 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,680 I was actually living in Moscow at the time in Russia. So the monastery had asked me to teach 268 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:40,240 in a meditation center in Russia. I ended up living there for four, four and a half years, 269 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,560 something like that. And people would come along after work in the evening and they to learn 270 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:52,320 meditation. And increasingly, you know, I was meeting all these people, just regular people, 271 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,600 regular jobs, families, everything else who were struggling. They didn't necessarily want to, 272 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,880 they weren't looking for enlightenment. They didn't want to learn how to chant or anything like, 273 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,000 you know, they just wanted to sleep better. They wanted to feel less anxious. They wanted to have 274 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,000 happier relationships. And I knew there was this thing that could help. And yet walking around 275 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:21,520 dressed as a Buddhist monk, I wasn't sort of naturally reducing the barriers to entry. So 276 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:28,000 I think just over time, it started me thinking sort of, look, there is an opportunity here to 277 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:35,040 introduce this in a way that it hasn't really been talked about very much, definitely within 278 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:42,080 a secular context. And that sort of began the journey of sort of trying to demystify it somewhat. 279 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:48,560 Right. So just for the application to kind of, you know, underline how I've used it and why it's so 280 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:54,080 important and I think why, you know, it works and, you know, a shout from the rooftops about it. 281 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,960 You talked about the buy-in, you know, walking in wearing the robes. And I think that's a, 282 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,440 it's a two-pronged problem, I guess you could say. In our profession, firstly, if you come in and 283 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,320 there's no connection with the, say, fire service, police, military, whoever you're presenting to, 284 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,880 even if you're wearing a tracksuit and it's not a robe, you know, if you've come from the local 285 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,600 leisure center or whatever, you don't understand what it's like to work shifts, what it's like to 286 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,200 see people die and all these things that are horrific, but they are part of the issue. 287 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,960 But so a lack of understanding, then you're like, well, you guys need to do, you know, 288 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,960 an hour or two hours of meditation every day. There's just, there's no direct application. 289 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:38,480 How I've found, and this is the reason why I was so passionate about this particular thing is, 290 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,680 I would go run a call, let's say two in the morning, let's say it was a pretty bad call, 291 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,960 come back and, you know, most first responders will tell you, you basically can't go back to 292 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:56,320 sleep after that. I would put on the Headspace Sleep app and within 10 minutes, I'd take it out 293 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,800 and I would go right back to sleep. And it was deregulating that nervous system that most of us 294 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:06,000 are walking with and walk around with that's so highly, highly charged, whether it's before 295 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,160 sleep, whether it's the middle of the day, whether it's after your ex just called you again, whatever 296 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:18,160 it is. But those 10 minute segments are so user-friendly for our profession. And I think that 297 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:24,720 was what really made it click to me is it's like you did walk in understanding, you know, the needs 298 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,640 of my profession and it works, you know, flawlessly with when we need to access it. 299 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:37,680 Yeah, that's really, it's great feedback. James, thank you. And I'm really happy it works in that 300 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:45,920 way. And you know, you're right. It's not so much, it's interesting. I think a lot of people look at 301 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:52,160 meditation, especially them, you know, done a lot of it, don't have any experience of it. They look 302 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:58,880 at it almost as a, almost as a sort of a fix or something like that, kind of like, you know, it's 303 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,480 suddenly going to change, suddenly going to change anything where actually is much more about balancing 304 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:12,320 out and regulating helping physically us move from sympathetic to parasympathetic sort of state where 305 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:19,600 we do or are able to sort of relax and unwind a little bit. And at a psychological level where 306 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,000 we're more able to let go of a lot of the rumination and a lot of the inner dialogue 307 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,960 that typically we carry around with us. And that's, yeah, if it's at night time, it's in the 308 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,200 middle of the night, that can be really distracting. It can stop us sort of getting to sleep during the 309 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:41,200 day. It prevents us from being fully engaged in the world in which we live. So just having that as 310 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,200 a skill, just balancing things out, I think can make a real difference. 311 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,280 Yeah. Well, focusing on the daytime first, because I really want to delve into the sleep in a moment, 312 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:59,600 but what I found, you know, doing the practice is when we had an emergent call, I was able to be a 313 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,360 lot calmer on the way there and I would even use some of the same breathing techniques on the way 314 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:09,440 to the call. And then when you got there, you had a wide focus as far as, you know, at any potential 315 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,960 risks. So you weren't blinkered, but then you were very focused as far as the job in hand and 316 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,280 weren't running around like a chicken with his head cut off either. So I found that again, that 317 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,000 when you put the work in by doing the practice every day, every other day, whatever you're able to do, 318 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:32,160 everything became more relaxed and more efficient. Yeah. I love that. I love the 319 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:39,280 picture you painted there. I think a few people have talked to me about almost experiencing 320 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:45,280 sort of a matrix type moment where everything sort of just begins to slow down, 321 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,720 but everything's still happening real time. But our experience of it, our perception of it is that 322 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,960 everything is slowing down. And so we have more time to make decisions. And I think typically in 323 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:04,960 life, our mind is so busy that we tend to react to things. So, I mean, I can only imagine in a 324 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,960 critical situation, you know, like you might be attending, if you react to, on the one hand, 325 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:17,200 we need to respond very quickly. But if we react hastily, we could end up making the wrong decision. 326 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:26,000 If we can create a quality of mind where the mind is actually calm, but highly alert, highly focused, 327 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,760 but we have enough space to respond skillfully, then we make a better decision in that moment. 328 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:38,880 So I think it's really tempting to, for people who don't know a lot about meditation, to think that 329 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,040 it sort of gets you in a particular state of mind, maybe it's very relaxed, very calm, but actually 330 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:51,600 it's training and awareness. So yes, we can use it to kind of to relax and calm down, but we can also 331 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:59,600 use it to be highly alert, highly efficient, and to make good decisions in very challenging situations. 332 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,400 Yeah. Yeah. And I think that being present is very important, whether it's in the actual job or again, 333 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,320 like you said, in the training. So you've got the meditation training itself, we've got our 334 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,960 fire training too. And let's say, for example, we are climbing, you know, 20 floors up with all 335 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,920 your gear. Well, instead of thinking, oh my God, I got 19 and got 18, if you're just focusing and 336 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:24,400 being in that moment and thinking about every single step, then it takes away the anxiety of 337 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,480 the what ifs when I get up there. Let me just focus. All I have right now is this. I have this load 338 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,280 and I have the next, you know, step or two to get up. And then you just keep cycling and cycling 339 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,240 before you know it, you're up there and you are focused instead of working your way into a frenzy 340 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:46,000 by the time you get up. Yeah. I think that's a great metaphor kind of across the whole of life, 341 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:53,440 actually. But just being able to let go of the thinking, which fuels the emotion. So 342 00:28:54,080 --> 00:29:00,480 anxiety, for example, can only exist if we're fanning the flames of anxiety. So we have to be 343 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,600 applying a lot of thinking around the anxiety, the anxiety to continue. If we're able to let go 344 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,960 of the thinking, then the anxiety will subside and we're then able to be more present. So we're 345 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,480 not thinking about what did happen just now. We're not thinking what might happen or could happen 346 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,920 at the top of the ladder. Instead, we are just fully present in the body one run to the next. 347 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,000 Yeah, exactly. And I know this has been said many, many times, but I think it's such a powerful 348 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,560 statement. Depression is worrying about the past and anxiety is worrying about the future. So if 349 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:36,240 you're present, in theory, you're basically eliminating both of those stresses. Yeah. And 350 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:46,560 the, I think the temptation, it can be is, when people begin meditation, especially is to think 351 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,720 that they are immediately going to be free from those stresses. And that they are immediately 352 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:58,400 going to be living in the present moment all of the time. My experience and the experience of most 353 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,880 people is that this is a journey. So I think it's also really important to highlight that, 354 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,880 yes, we can experience those things less frequently, but I would say it's even more valuable than that. 355 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,520 I would say that through regular meditation, through regular mindfulness, we can get to a 356 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:23,040 point where when we experience anxiety in the mind, we don't necessarily kind of buy into it. We 357 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,960 don't necessarily engage with it. Instead, we're actually okay with it. And when sad thoughts 358 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,120 arise in the mind, we don't necessarily engage with them. We don't necessarily buy into them. 359 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,800 We're okay with them. And that's actually, in a way, is way more freedom than simply being free 360 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:45,920 from something. If we're okay with the mind in good times and in bad times, that's absolute freedom. 361 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,800 Because then we're no longer concerned. We're no longer trying to maintain a certain quality 362 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,320 in mind. And we're no longer trying to keep certain thoughts and emotions at bay. Instead, 363 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,640 we are genuinely able to be at ease with the mind, no matter how it appears in each and every moment. 364 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:09,040 But that's, as I say, that is a journey. Yeah. And I noticed that, funny enough, with, 365 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,280 I think road rage is the wrong description, just getting wound up by other people's driving, 366 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,240 because it wasn't like I was out there dragging them through the glass or anything. But before, 367 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,720 I would react, I would get angry. And this was definitely part of sleep deprivation as well. 368 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,360 So I acknowledge that. But what I found with using the headspace was, just like you said, 369 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,960 I would acknowledge, yes, that person is still driving like an asshole. There's no question 370 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,680 about that. However, I choose not to react the same way, because it's going to have no effect 371 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,560 on the world. If I get wound up, they probably don't even realize they just cut me up anyway. 372 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,520 So the awareness of my reaction to the exterior world was a big change. 373 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:56,080 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing that, as I said, it's not that everything around us 374 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,000 is suddenly going to change and that all the difficulties and challenges of life 375 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:06,160 are suddenly going to disappear. But our perspective of some changes, and in that space, 376 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,840 in that renewed perspective, there is the opportunity to actually kind of let go of 377 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:18,480 some of the old habits that we might have engaged in over the course of a lifetime. And as a direct 378 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:25,120 result, maybe we do feel a bit less stressed and maybe we are able to be a bit more positive 379 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720 in the world and a bit more connected with the people around us. 380 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,680 Absolutely. Well, I want to just explore sleep, because as I mentioned before, 381 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,280 that's where I used it the most. I would often use it before, I quote unquote, went to sleep, 382 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,800 and then a fire station waiting for an alarm to go off. It's not technically sleep, 383 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:49,920 it's just closing your eyes for a bit. But the 10-minute segments that you had, the sleep segments, 384 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:58,560 I really, really enjoyed. Now, from all your experience with the importance and quality of 385 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:05,600 sleep, what's your perspective on exactly that? How much have you learned about the value of sleep 386 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,160 and then the application of Headspace to help that? 387 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:16,640 Yeah, it's an interesting one, because in the monastery, for example, we might only sleep, 388 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,280 again, in retreat kind of context, and this can often be for years at a time, 389 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,400 but you might only sleep for four hours a night. So the sleep has to be incredibly efficient 390 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:34,240 to fully recover. Obviously, it's a very different environment, and you don't have the same sort of 391 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:41,520 stresses involved and the same level of distraction. But at the same time, it definitely made me 392 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,960 acutely aware that it's not the number of hours that we sleep, it's the quality of rest we have 393 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,800 while we're sleeping. So, you know, I know lots of people who sleep for 10 hours a night and wake up, 394 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:58,320 lucky people, I know, and I know that they're not going to be able to sleep for 10 hours a night, 395 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:05,760 wake up feeling exhausted. They're still tired when they wake up in the morning, and they feel 396 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,920 like their mind has been churning away sort of all night. And I know people who've slept for 397 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:16,080 considerably less, they wake up feeling very alert. So I do think it's really important that we pay 398 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:23,280 attention to not just how many hours we're spending in bed with our eyes shut, but also to the quality 399 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:29,680 of the quality of rest we're getting. And there are a few things we can do. I think one, this is 400 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:35,760 this is hard to sort of maybe wrap your head around immediately, but simply having a regular 401 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:43,440 meditation practice in the daytime will help lead to a better night's sleep. So we don't necessarily, 402 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:50,080 basically what happens is usually in every day we get to bedtime, we've been so busy, as soon as we 403 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,240 put our head on the pillow, it's almost like with nothing to do, all those thoughts then stream into 404 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:59,840 our mind, and they can sort of prevent us from getting to sleep. If we have a regular meditation 405 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:05,600 practice, we're less likely to store up all those thoughts during the day. There's a sense of them 406 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,560 being released as we go through the day. So therefore, when we get to bed, we're more likely 407 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,600 to be able to fall asleep. So having a regular meditation practice can help. Doing some, we have 408 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:22,080 loads of unwinding exercises on the app. So these are designed specifically before you go to bed, 409 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,880 almost in the same way that you'd warm up for exercise of any kind, in the same way you're 410 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:37,680 sort of preparing the mind to wind down and be in a state where it will comfortably sort of drift off. 411 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,520 And then there are even exercises that you can do, as you say, if you wake up in the middle of the 412 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,800 night to sort of help you go back to sleep. But ultimately, yeah, we're looking for a quality 413 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:55,920 of rest rather than simply more time in bed. Yeah. And then I think it's such a, again, 414 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,360 we talk about negative and positive or healthy coping mechanisms, a lot of the physical stresses, 415 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:09,200 the mental stresses, and there's a huge epidemic really of alcohol use in our profession, of pain 416 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:16,000 pill use, and then sleeping medicine as well. And all of those just destroy your quality of sleep. 417 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,800 So to be able to find something that actually is going to be beneficial 24 hours a day, but will 418 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:27,040 give you that deep restorative sleep, and then you can start weaning yourself off those crutches 419 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:38,320 that you use, I think is very powerful. Yeah. And again, I can only imagine how easy it would be 420 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:46,720 to go down any of those routes working in your profession. But as anyone who has gone through 421 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:53,280 long term use of any of those things will testify, it is most definitely not a comfortable, 422 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:59,440 long term, sustainable solution. And I think you hit the net on the head, it's not about kind of 423 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:10,720 immediately swapping this out. It's about introducing this as an additional skill in toolkit, 424 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:15,840 if you like, and at the same time working with a health professional, if that's necessary, 425 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:22,480 to slowly wean yourself off maybe some of the other less healthy supports that might have been 426 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,040 used in the past. Right. Now you mentioned health professional. I saw an article where, 427 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:32,400 I think it was Evening Standard, where you'd had referrals from local GPs, and I found that quite 428 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,480 interesting. So what's the story behind? Were they regular GPs? And what kind of people were 429 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:43,280 they sending you away? Yeah, funny enough, that was actually, so even before, even before I started 430 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,360 Headspace, so I went back, after the monastery, I went back to, after Russia, I went back to England. 431 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,200 And I spent a number of years working in a clinic doing just one to one stuff, private practice, 432 00:37:53,200 --> 00:38:00,560 and it was an interdisciplinary health clinic. There were people across the board that were 433 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:07,440 sort of cardiac specialists, orthopedic. I mean, it was really, really broad, and it was run by a guy 434 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,720 who was just very sort of progressive, and he had this idea that if he brought enough people 435 00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:17,360 from different disciplines under one roof, then no matter who walks in the door, no matter what was 436 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:24,720 wrong with them, he would have the people to sort of help. And so I would see people, if people were 437 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,720 in there, it was normally stress-related conditions. Either they were struggling with 438 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:39,520 insomnia, anxiety, depression, irritability, those types of things. I would either see them alongside 439 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:46,640 sort of a GP who was either just monitoring their condition or maybe even prescribing them some 440 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:52,240 medication. Or occasionally, if they felt they didn't warrant medication, but the meditation 441 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:59,040 would be helpful, then I would see that individual separately. And I used to see people, it was a 442 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,880 course that I ran there, so it was a 10-week course. I'd see people for one hour a week over 443 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:11,440 a 10-week period, and we'd kind of work not only on what was going on with them at that particular 444 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:16,160 moment, but also on a sort of a longer-term strategy. So at the end of the 10 weeks, they'd 445 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:21,200 actually have a skill they could take away and apply to any part of their life. 446 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:26,880 Yeah, I think that's incredible. I mean, I hear more and more of the power of psychotherapy and 447 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:34,800 a lot of the mental health issues too. Even use of MDMA recently to get rid of the barriers when 448 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,760 they're talking them through it. But it all results in a good psychotherapy, which again, 449 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,600 is self-talk. And I think they give them tools as well. But it's amazing to me how powerful that is 450 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,080 versus being prescribed a bunch of psych meds and being told to come back in 30 days. 451 00:39:50,080 --> 00:40:04,160 Yeah, it's massive. I think it will require such a cultural sort of change. I think it has been a 452 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,600 certain way for such a long period of time. But I'm actually really encouraged when I look at 453 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,240 what's happened in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, we couldn't even really talk about meditation or 454 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:18,640 mindfulness without people kind of giggling. I think it's a very important thing to do. 455 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:28,160 People kind of giggling. There's now sort of 45 million people on the platform. And over those 456 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,960 last 10 years, we've only been one part of the conversation. But the conversation just around 457 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:40,240 mental health has moved on massively. Perhaps more so in the UK than here in the US. I don't know. 458 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:48,560 When I go back to the UK and back to Europe, I'm amazed now. Whether it's within workplace, 459 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:56,800 whether it's within healthcare, there is just a general acknowledgement now that our mental health 460 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:03,600 is just as, if not more important than our physical health. And unless we kind of introduce a culture 461 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:10,000 where people feel okay to be able to talk about this stuff, to feel okay to be vulnerable in their 462 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,680 work, in their relationships, then we're really going to struggle. So I actually think things 463 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,520 have moved on and I'm excited about the pace at which they're moving in some areas of the world. 464 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:24,960 Brilliant. Now, I know the Dalai Lama famously said if every eight-year-old in the world was 465 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:30,080 taught meditation, it would eliminate violence in a generation. And I know I actually looked online, 466 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,720 there was someone that was poo-pooing the whole thing. But the reality is, obviously we know, 467 00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:39,520 like we just discussed for the last 40 minutes, that there is nothing but positive benefits from 468 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:47,120 this. What's your philosophy on actually implementing that in schools and getting kids 469 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:53,840 to understand mindfulness and meditation at an early age? Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously haven't 470 00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:01,200 benefited from a young age myself. I'm a huge advocate of that and it's something we've worked 471 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:07,040 on really, really hard at Headspace. So even within the app, there's Headspace for kids, 472 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:13,200 five and under, six to eight and nine to 11. We have loads of people who kind of use it with kids 473 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:23,200 as young as three. I think that's really exciting. I love the statement that he came out with 474 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:31,920 and I love the sentiment of it. I think it will take, you know, this is a generational kind of 475 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:39,280 thing. It will take time, but most schools now, most schools that I know of, have mindfulness 476 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:45,120 in their curriculum to some extent. Sometimes it's teachers of their own volition just bringing it 477 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:52,160 into the classroom because they found it beneficial themselves. Over here in the US, we've worked, 478 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:58,960 we currently make Headspace available to all educators for free. We've reached somewhere 479 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:05,920 close to half a million teachers in the US. It's available in tons of schools and I think we're 480 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,440 working with, I could be wrong, but the last county was something like 70 odd school districts 481 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:22,960 across the US. And yeah, so we internally feel like setting the next generation up with these skills 482 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,600 so that they don't have to wait till they get to the point where they feel like they're struggling 483 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,920 with their mental health. That is the way forward. Absolutely. And on the other side of the scale, 484 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:39,680 have you done any work in prisons, bringing meditation into there? Yeah, we have done so back 485 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:46,400 in, I don't know in the US actually, but back in the UK. So when we were trying to work out sort of 486 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:55,200 how we were going to be engaged in sort of more philanthropic type work, we worked a lot with 487 00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:04,560 sort of health centers, addiction centers, prisons, and also sort of homes which cater to people when 488 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,600 they left prison and returned to everyday life. And that's often sort of a period of real kind 489 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:17,840 of challenge. And it's been really, it's been fascinating. There's a ton of research online 490 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,480 that people can have a look at about sort of the work that's been done with meditation inside 491 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:31,840 prisons. But I do think there is a real opportunity. There are, just from a very sort of practical 492 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,360 point of view, not only is it a very sort of challenging environment where people would benefit 493 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,160 from these skills, but there is also the opportunity and the time in which to learn these skills 494 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:50,320 and where they can be an important part of rehabilitation, of acceptance, and developing 495 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:58,080 a healthy sense of self-worth and compassion as they head back out into society. And I feel like 496 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:03,440 that's a really missing component from sort of the penal system generally. 497 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,000 Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a lot of men and women that have got childhood trauma that 498 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,600 they've got to deal with. They've got the addiction that they use to fill the void. And there's so 499 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,320 many areas there that you could see would be beneficial if they replaced that with exploring 500 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:22,400 their own mind. Brilliant. All right. Well, I want to touch on one more area before we 501 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,280 talk about Headspace. I kind of want you to paint the picture so everyone knows exactly what is 502 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:34,640 available to them. But I know you were diagnosed with cancer. So being someone who was a monk for 503 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:40,080 10 years, I'm very holistic in the way I look at food and treatment. What were the changes that 504 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:49,680 you made in your life to overcome that? Yeah. So I was diagnosed with cancer just 505 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,800 after I came out to America. And it's really important to say at the start, 506 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,920 I'm not recommending a particular course of action here. This is a very personal thing 507 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,160 that's different for everyone. And you've got to do it alongside your doctor and everything else. 508 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:12,960 But yeah, for me, having grown up in a culture where meditation was part of growing up and 509 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,400 alternative health and acupuncture and nutrition, all that stuff was stuff I'd grown up with and 510 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:24,240 obviously kind of studying sports and things as well that all kind of fed into it. So yeah, 511 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:30,160 when I found out that I had cancer, I needed to have an operation straight away, which I had. And 512 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:38,160 then they wanted to do sort of more aggressive surgery and also go down the route of chemo and 513 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:45,440 everything else. And I just didn't feel like that was right for me at that time. So I went and got 514 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:51,280 a second opinion and then a third and then a fourth. And on the sixth opinion, I found a doctor 515 00:46:51,280 --> 00:47:00,960 who thought in a similar way to me. And yeah, we came up with a plan and obviously meditation was 516 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:07,680 a, and more meditation was a really important part of that plan, changing nutrition as well. So 517 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:15,280 again, this is controversial. Some people are into it, some aren't, but we went on an alkaline diet 518 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:23,520 and ate nothing but raw food for a year with my wife, who very kindly joined me at the time. 519 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:30,960 And I made sure that I was just getting more rest than I had been previously and starting a company 520 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:36,240 and moving to a different country and everything else. There had been a lot going on. So it was 521 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:45,360 sort of modifying some of life behaviors, making sure I was getting enough exercise, I was eating 522 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:52,720 the right food, that I was doing enough meditation. And for me personally, that was my way of working 523 00:47:52,720 --> 00:48:00,880 with quite a challenging situation. And what was the outcome? Well, so far so good, my friend. 524 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:12,880 There we go. There we go. We're five years on now. And there's been no sign of it yet. It's an 525 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:22,720 interesting one. I think meditation has taught me that apart from anything else that these things, 526 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:31,120 just in life, everything comes and goes. And it doesn't mean that it's gone forever. And I 527 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:38,880 would say that it will drift in and out of my mind. Maybe it comes up in conversation with someone. 528 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:45,520 And I don't think I ever feel like I'm just not of that personality where it's like, 529 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:53,440 oh, I've beaten it. Because I created some conditions for the body to heal, but I don't 530 00:48:53,440 --> 00:49:00,160 really believe I beat it. Nature just played out that way within those conditions. And so, 531 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:11,280 all being well, it will remain that way. But yeah, I just feel the most useful thing 532 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,160 kind of throughout that process. And so many people, you must have spoken to loads of people, 533 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:23,440 down here, who feel the same way. But I feel like those things are a real gift when we survive them. 534 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:30,240 Because they do remind us of what's important in life. They do encourage us to feel more grateful. 535 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:37,200 And having meditation on that journey, where it would have been so easy to get strung out and 536 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:43,760 to think about what could happen, what might happen. And instead, to just be present and being 537 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,720 okay with just not really knowing along the way. That was a really valuable thing. 538 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,760 Yeah. Well, it goes back to what you said about the tragedy in Keynesham. I mean, you could be 539 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,800 100% healthy and then a drunk driver plows into you and your friends. So there's no way of knowing. 540 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:05,920 But just to me, the philosophy of taking all the natural tools that our ancestors, 541 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:11,200 thousands of years ago, had to put the body in as close to as homeostasis as you can, 542 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:17,360 to my medical mind, makes a lot more sense than blasting the body with radiation or chemicals 543 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:24,160 and destroying the immune system. Yeah, I think so. I mean, another time, another situation. 544 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:33,040 And I think that's the other thing as well. I think it can be really easy to look at life 545 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:38,880 in terms of black or white kind of thing. And I feel like meditation and mindfulness, 546 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,560 some people will say, oh, but what about medication? Is it medication or meditation? 547 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:54,240 And I feel like these things are complementary. And sometimes, if I was in a real tight spot 548 00:50:54,240 --> 00:51:01,280 and I needed surgery, I would not be going to my local acupuncturist to have a treatment. I would 549 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:06,320 be going to the doctor, to the hospital to have surgery because I know it's amazing that we have 550 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:14,240 those things. But from a long term preventative type of thinking, I think it's really helpful 551 00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:19,280 to explore all the different things that are out there. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the thing. I 552 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:25,840 try not to demonize medicine. I try to be clear and preface a discussion with, yeah, if I got 553 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:31,360 nailed by a car and broke my femur in two, I'm not going to go to a chiropractor and say, hey, can you 554 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:36,560 pop that back in? I'm going to go to a trauma surgeon. But yeah, chronic disease, when I know, 555 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,840 I know, there's no question that you can reverse so many of these so-called irreversible diseases 556 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:48,960 through nutrition, through mental practice, yoga, all those things combined, then you really do not 557 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:55,360 need to be a drug addict on some statin for the rest of your life. All right. Well, let's take a 558 00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,560 moment then to, if you wouldn't mind, just to tell people listening, how to access the platform, 559 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:07,680 what types of meditation practices there are in the links, just so they get a kind of mental picture 560 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:13,280 of what you have out there. Yeah. So look, you can download, obviously you can download the app, 561 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:21,040 either from iOS app store or Google Play store. And when you first download it, so 562 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:28,560 you don't need to, you don't need to subscribe in order to use it and to try it. So we work with a 563 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,440 system whereby there is free content on there that you can use forever, as long as you like. 564 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,040 If you want access, once you've learned the basics, if you want access to more content, 565 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:46,320 then it's a subscription kind of model. And once you go into that library, yeah, there are 10, 20, 566 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:54,800 30 day courses on everything from productivity and focus and performance to sleep, stress, 567 00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:01,360 anxiety, self-esteem. There's a sports channel for those people that are specifically looking for 568 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:09,040 help with either preparing for sports in the performance itself or in the recovery. 569 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:16,000 This has space for kids. And the idea is that you can kind of create your own journey, you know, 570 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:22,960 and you kind of access the content that feels right for you at that time. And you can choose, 571 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:27,840 you don't, you know, as I said at the beginning, you don't have to sit for a really long time. 572 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:33,200 You can sit for, you can choose a session length as little as three minutes or five minutes. 573 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:40,480 I'd recommend slowly if you can try and build up to sort of 10 minutes. But the idea, as I say, 574 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:46,000 is that this is a facility that you can access and implement and integrate into your own life 575 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:51,920 as it exists. You don't have to make big changes necessarily in your own life to make room for this. 576 00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:59,040 And yeah, every, every exercise is different. There are, there are some that focus more on 577 00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,760 the breath, for example, sort of focus attention type exercises, which are really good for training 578 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,560 sort of a relaxed focus in the mind. There are others that are more sort of visualization 579 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:18,480 orientated that can be really helpful for sort of encouraging an environment for healing in the body. 580 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:26,560 So again, there are lots of different techniques in there, different ways of sort of cultivating 581 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,680 these qualities of mind that most of us would like to, to experience a little bit more often. 582 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:38,480 Yeah. And that 10 minute segment that you're talking about, again, to me works so well in 583 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:44,800 our profession because, you know, when you first get to the station or in your patrol car, 584 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,200 whatever it is that you're doing, that's a, that's a amount where you can just kind of control or 585 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,760 delete your brain a little bit. And then because you've only done the 10, that frees up a lot of 586 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:58,720 time where if you want to revisit it later in the day, you have a stressful call or you're getting 587 00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:02,320 ready to do an exercise that you're actually pretty anxious about and it scares you, whether 588 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:07,200 it's heights or water or whatever it is, then you can revisit it again. And I think those segments 589 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:13,680 work extremely well for the jobs that we do. Yeah. That's a really interesting way of thinking 590 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:21,120 about it. And, and we actually specifically, recognizing that people didn't always want to sit 591 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:28,960 down for, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes. We even, so there's even an SOS kind of channel sort of in 592 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:34,000 there as well. So that, you know, let's say you're feeling particularly anxious about something, 593 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:38,560 it doesn't mean that you have to do a whole kind of exercise. You know, you can just plug it in. 594 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:43,520 And for three minutes, you know, you'll be sort of coached through with a, with a mindfulness 595 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:51,520 exercise that will help sort of deescalate the sort of the panic in the mind. So my hope is that 596 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,680 there is something, something in there for everyone. Brilliant. All right. So I got some 597 00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,640 very quick wrapper questions then. I know we've got just a few minutes left. Is there a book that 598 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:04,720 you love to recommend to people? Just to say, so you've written three books to get some headspace, 599 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:09,200 The Headspace Diet and The Headspace Guide to Mindful Pregnancy. So I want to make sure that we 600 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,680 mention those as well. Are there any books by other people that you love to recommend? 601 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:23,040 There are. Most of them are pretty niche, obviously given my backgrounds and my interest. But look, 602 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:30,320 there's one I'm going to throw out there, which I think is, I think it's amazing. It's, it is 603 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,640 meditation specific, but it's bigger than meditation. It's kind of about life. It's about awareness. 604 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:41,840 It's called Zen Mind Beginner's Mind by a Japanese chap called Suzuki Roshi, who came over to America, 605 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:48,080 I think back in the 50s or 60s and settled in San Francisco. It's just a book which really 606 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:54,000 encourages this idea of pulling back from the confusion of our inner dialogue and just gets us 607 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,400 looking at our mind, at our relationships and at the world in a very different way. 608 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:03,600 Brilliant. All right. And then I'm just going to ask one other wrapper question. Is there a person 609 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,760 that you would recommend to come on this podcast to talk to the first responders of the world? 610 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:11,840 Goodness me. You put me on the... 611 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,040 That one normally snags a few people and I don't mean to. 612 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:21,760 Do you know, I mean, one of the ones, I don't know if he'd do it, but the Tibetan Lama that I 613 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:28,320 trained under, I think would be really interesting, you know? Like it's, it's not like he's led his 614 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:35,040 whole life just again, sitting around a monastery with his eyes closed. I mean, those guys in 615 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:41,440 escaping Tibet, they spent six months going over, sort of traveling over the Himalayas by foot, 616 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:48,960 being shot at by Chinese soldiers. More than three quarters of the group he traveled in 617 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:56,800 died of either hypothermia or starvation. And it's amazing listening to someone like that, 618 00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:05,600 who has been through really kind of, you know, life changing events in his life and how that's 619 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:13,840 been put to good effect in leading a sort of a happier and more positive life. I think he could 620 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,520 be a, he could be a really interesting one. It's a bit left field, but hey. 621 00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,480 This is a left field show, I promise you. So I've had, I've had child soldiers, you name it. I've 622 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,160 had all kinds of people on here. So next time I see him, I'll ask him. 623 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,480 That would be amazing. Thank you. All right. Well, I just want to say thank you so much. 624 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:35,920 I can imagine how busy you are, but not only talk to you, but then to realize that we grew up a few 625 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:42,320 miles from each other is even more, more of an impact. Small world, small world. 626 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:59,360 So thank you so much. Thank you, James. Thanks for having me on.