This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran owned and operated performance optimization company that I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.
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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show Muay Thai champion, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt and world catch wrestling champion Ian Mongoose Jones.
Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his turbulent childhood, his journey into combat sports, striking, the world of grappling, the hidden secrets of catch wrestling, grappling in law enforcement and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you, Ian Jones. Enjoy.
So Ian, I want to start by saying firstly, thank you for accepting a message from a completely random dude on Instagram and secondly coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
You're welcome.
It's nice to be asked to be fair, I enjoy doing stuff and meeting people and things like that. So yeah, it's good.
Brilliant. So where on planet Earth are we finding you? Your evening, my afternoon.
I live in a little mining village, you've probably never heard it called South Kirby, which is probably the end of world.
It's just a little crappy town, really. Not much going on, no wrestling, no nothing really. So it's like back and beyond.
Were you born in that town?
I was born here, yeah. I'd have liked to have been born somewhere different, but yeah, it's, we call it Sesquio, it's a group of mining villages, that's all like together.
But if you go out of a village, you fall off End at World, it's one of them type of places. So yeah, a lot of nice, but everyone knows everyone's business and stuff like that, so yeah, it's a bit backwards.
Well, speaking of that, before we even dive into kind of your early life, the history of the town, because when you were the village, when you think about, when I think about mining, growing up in the UK in the 70s and 80s,
there's a lot of the mines being closed and the impact that had on the people of that town or that village. What was the history of mining in your village and are they still mining today?
They don't mine anymore, but my dad was a miner, obviously. He worked at a place called Kirby Pit or Kirby Colliery.
And I can remember at strike, because I can remember it probably, at the time, it was probably the worst days of my life, growing up, because we had nothing.
I can remember going to school in second hand clothes and stuff like that, but when I looked back, it was really good for me, because it was all character building.
I can remember even just little things like going pee-picking with my dad to make money and shopping wood, put fire and stuff like that. So it was good.
And obviously my dad, my dad used to, they didn't get much money because he didn't work, so they used to go rioting and stuff like that, again, police. So obviously, police in this area, it's like frowned upon with miners,
because my dad's grown up years, like 18 police, but a lot of my family are in police and stuff like that. So it's impacted me in a way, I suppose, well, it's made me appreciate things in life.
It's like, when I was growing up, I didn't have much, you know what I mean? It was one of those communities, we used to like actually go to a place called, I think we used to call it M's of Scroungers at school,
and they used to give clothes and stuff like that, and trainers and stuff like that. And it was like, you used to get pissed at guys for wearing it, bullied really for wearing it,
because I don't like it, I want it posh kids and all like that. And then I used to wear my brothers hand-me-downs, so yeah, different, difficult times, I suppose.
Yeah, it's really funny, because I grew up, my dad was a vet, veterinary surgeon, so you would think there was a lot of money, but he was amazing with his job, but the business side was terrible.
And I used to be in a lot of Oxfam clothes myself, and we had to wear uniform in junior school and senior school, so I think that took away some of the bullying.
But it was almost worse, because from the outside, people thought we had money. I'm not pretending I was in some deep poverty, but yeah, we were in secondhand clothes.
Sometimes we had flour cakes for dinner, and it never dawned on me as an adult, I was like, oh, that's what you eat when you're poor, and there's nothing in the fridge.
You flour more, and you mix it together, and you put it on the frying pan. So yeah, it's interesting how that does add undue stress to a child,
not only the fact that you're having to find clothes to wear or food to eat, but also the kind of guilt and shame when some of the other kids are basically making fun of you,
because you're the air quotes poor kid in the school.
Yeah, like I said, I won't change it now, it made me what I am, but it's good, isn't it?
It was interesting as well when you said about the police, because even today, when you think about a few years ago with COVID,
them having to enforce all the gyms being shut down, which was insanity, but they're kind of a scapegoat for these political decisions.
The people that make them, people that decide to close the mines or shut down the world because of a virus, whatever it is,
they're not the ones knocking on people's doors, they're sending the police to do it, and then the police then in turn become the bad guys.
Yeah, it's like we're on riots at the moment, I wouldn't do that for a golden pig, we're police and stuff like that.
They're basically just carrying fodder, aren't they, just for people to throw stones at and stuff like that.
But in lockdown, I'll train, to be fair, because of my shed and I've trained in my back garden, I'll train a group of police all through lockdown.
So when the first came to me, they said, will you train me with wrestling and grappling?
I went, well, you're not going to lock me up by hand. They said, no, we could get locked up just as bad.
So I trained a lot of police through lockdown, which was weird really, because it was probably my busiest time.
Do you know why? Because I got my PT from home and stuff like that, so it was my busiest time, so all gyms were shut.
So it would have been a godsend in a sense, I had a gym in my back garden.
Yeah, I mean, this is what's crazy, that's what I had too.
We were in Florida, so Florida was actually, we were very lucky, we had a governor that took it seriously,
but then as they started seeing more and more data within our state, they were like, oh, OK, we'll open the gyms,
we'll open the restaurants and it slowly kind of filtered in again.
But if you think about it during that time, what people needed was community, exercise, good food,
all the things that they were telling you not to do.
So it was kind of shitty really when you look back and the advice everyone was given was completely wrong.
Yeah, don't go lick your 96 year old grandmother's face, it's probably not a good idea.
But yeah, you need to get outside, you need to exercise, and especially if you're in uniform, yeah, you need to keep training
because you never know the next person that you go on might try and kill you.
And if you haven't exercised or done jiu-jitsu for two years, now you're going to be even more vulnerable
to some extremists that you're trying to catch in your town.
Not only that, crime rate went up, did it? Because no one had money or all that, so robberies were going up in my area.
There's a lot of people getting blocked into, the cars getting stolen, that's still true.
It's a bit backwards round here, everyone's getting blocked into.
As far as with that, crime rate went up through the roof, wheels were coving and stuff like that.
It affected everything. And then mental health's gone up, everything's gone up.
But yeah, I'm glad I trained my way through it. Probably 50 step into it, to be fair, because I was training all the time, so it was good for me.
Absolutely, yeah, we had the front of where I train, the jiu-jitsu side, they had their front door closed,
but you just go through the back door and everyone was, and it was just an agreement.
Are you all okay with this? They were like, yeah, okay, so we carried on. Yeah, brilliant.
A lot of people that end up as high level combat athletes, usually there's an element of some suffering.
You mentioned obviously being teased with the whole poverty side, but a lot of times you're building that armor,
you're creating that person that won't be bullied anymore, that can protect other people.
So when you look back at your early life, what were other elements that you contribute were challenging,
was suffering at the time when you were a kid?
I think it was because obviously I've never been, when I was younger, I was always smallest in my class.
I was always smallest, probably most underdeveloped kid.
And then I got, it was weird because at school I was picked on for being smaller and stuff like that.
And I wasn't the brightest kid academically either as well, so I was in reading units and all I seem to do was show and knit in my class.
That's all I seemed to learn, so I learnt life skill there.
But then I was getting bullied at home by my brother and then I had my cousins with me next door to me as well,
and they were a group of lads and they used to pick on me as well.
So I had it rough to be fair. And then I guess I was trying to still find my sense and stuff like that.
I didn't know what I wanted because I wasn't very academic.
And then one day, obviously I bought some heroin, believe it or not.
When I was 15 years old, my friends started taking drugs and they bought some heroin.
And I said, oh, I'll drink some. And I basically gave them half the money to order.
We didn't know what it was. And that day, I didn't tell my brother about it.
We were going to have it the day after. My brother told me to keep watching.
And that's where it all stemmed from. Then I fell in love with the world, fell in love with martial arts, started doing keep watching.
And I found out that I was quite good at it. I went around the world doing it.
So it just led to other things. But then obviously all my friends who I was hanging out with,
they were addicted to heroin and drugs and stuff like that.
And then I just carried on with martial arts and I never looked back.
So it saved me. It saved my life really when I looked back because I would probably end up in jail with just doing an eight or ten.
It's been a positive thing. So right now with martial arts, like with any other living,
I'm trying to give back. I'm teaching a lot of young kids and adults and stuff like that just to get them off the wrong side of the tracks.
There's a few kids that I've trained that could have gone either way.
So I think I've got them into competing and stuff like that. So I'll probably change their lives.
You don't realise how much impact you have on other people's lives teaching martial arts.
Well, I've heard over and over again on here with all the guests is that a lot of them end up being the fighters, their SAS, whatever the thing is they ended up doing.
But a lot of them had really shitty upbringings initially. And it was that mentor, that crossroads.
And like you said, it could have gone one way, you end up in prison or dead or it went the other way and you end up in the military or in a martial arts gym.
And it was that personal that maybe the handful of people that allowed them to make the turn the right way rather than the wrong way.
Yeah, it was probably my brother who saved my life when I think about it.
I looked up to him because he was always into weights and always in good shape and stuff like that.
So he sort of put me on the right track really. And he's a boxing coach now.
But then, my mum and dad really, they were just hardworking citizens. My dad would remind them and my mum was a nurse or a carer type thing.
So I suppose I've always had good parents, hardworking parents and that. But I've never been fed with silver spoon as they say.
But my brother, I suppose in a sense, he was a big part of it really.
Because he took me to all boxing gyms and then got me into Thai boxing and then obviously grappling I found later on in life like in the 20s, 1920s.
So that's when I moved on to, I fell in love with kickboxing and stuff like that.
And I think I won probably three or four British tiles at that as a kid.
Then did boxing and then Thai boxing. I went all over at Wilbert Thai boxing and then found MMA and Jiu Jitsu and then I found catch wrestling last to be fair.
But everyone, I've been really lucky with coaches, dropped on some really good role models and stuff like that.
So I suppose they've saved my life as well in a sense.
Well, you talked about your brother being one of the mentors that steers you in the right direction.
But I heard you discussing some of the things that your brother did prior to that as a bully. So it wasn't just names, was it?
No, I was up in bread bags on my head with shit in them and stuff like that.
I was tortured but I wouldn't change it at all. I would not change it.
I still like it now with my brother. Not with me, but he's just an absolute joker.
But when I look back, it's shaped who I am. It's a good thing in some cases.
Probably left me mentally scarred in other ways.
What about career aspirations? You mentioned not having much of a direction.
I wasn't great academically. I was a C-if-that student when I finished my GCSEs and everything.
And again, when it came to being inspired, I did one of those tests.
I don't know if it was the same generation as you, but it told you what you could be.
You do all your grades and everything. I think it said, like, badger tamer and otter trainer or something.
Nothing inspiring.
I believe it or not, I wanted to be a vet.
Oh really?
I wanted to be a vet. The thing is, I can't even cut a chicken breast open raw.
I did want to be a vet, but there was no way on God's Earth. I didn't pass anything.
I think I got a C in drama that way. Maybe a D in woodwork. I want the brightest.
But I think, like you said, I've made a career out of martial arts and sports.
The thing is, I wasn't even a sports person at school. I was always like last year, races and stuff like that.
And it's only later on, like, into my teens, really, that I started doing weights and stuff like that.
That put me on the right path.
And now I fell into a job where I worked for council in gyms.
So basically the classes like to teach spinning polis and stuff like that.
And kettlebell classes and all sorts of boxing and things like that.
So I have that as my conditioning for everyday life.
So when I go to work, I'm getting paid for being fit.
So I'm doing my gym work at work.
Then I work on doors as well.
So I'm having that as my psychological, almost like psychological warfare.
So you're learning how to read people's body languages and stuff like that.
And then my martial arts, that's like my training for everyday stuff.
So I think that just keeps you humble, martial arts.
And not only that, I'm not a trouble causer, but I always think like when people ask me what I actually train for,
I don't train for aesthetics or anything like that.
I train for like violence. Not that I'm a violent person, but I train to almost like survival of a fittest out there, isn't it?
You've got to be able to protect your family, protect yourself.
And I think that's a big thing.
I think that's why I train, really, because I think you only get one body at the end of the day.
And I think you've got to be able to defend your family and yourself, really.
So I think that's the most important thing in life, really, being able to look after yourself.
Like most people who go to work, they go home, they go and sit on the sofa all day,
and they don't have a clue what's going on out in modern day.
And it's that easy now with like knife attacks and stuff like that.
And I think there's a lot of people who live in like cuckoo land.
So I think you've got to understand what's like the door side, the doors and security side of things.
When I do that, it's made me realise that it's keeping me sharper on my toes.
So I've got to desensitise, you know what I mean?
Most people think that there's no violence outside, but I've been attacked with everything.
You name it, I've been attacked with it.
And martial arts has helped me.
So I've been fit and things like that.
So it's been a good thing, really.
I want to explore that in a little bit, the law enforcement side and the bouncing side.
But going back to your journey into martial arts, I found initially WTF Taekwondo, then ITF, which I did for a while,
won trophies, national and local regional championships.
And then I went into boxing with my tippy-tappy Taekwondo and got murdered.
Then I did Muay Thai and got murdered.
So I had a lot of point fighting, which again, I didn't think I was tough, to be honest.
I knew the limitations of it.
But you were given all these medals for one area, and then you realised how many weaknesses that particular art has when it comes to real combat.
So you found yourself in kit boxing, though.
You were far further ahead of the curve at the entrance than I was.
So walk me through being an absolute novice in kit boxing, and then what was that evolution for you?
I tell you what, I used to train with a guy called Peter Heath, a colour gentleman.
He was a bit like Chris Eubank, really, a bit like Articula in that sense.
And to be fair, he absolutely tortured us.
When I think about it, he used to torture us.
I'm talking like four years old at the time.
He'd make us run two miles with a sauna suit on, and then he'd take us back.
And he'd make you do like 300 press ups. Obviously, you couldn't do them physically.
He'd make you do them like in sets of 10 and 5.
Then he'd have us stretching, and then he'd absolutely murder us, sparring us.
Like, absolutely beat us up.
I can remember going on with bushings and cut eyes and stuff like that.
He battered us, but I don't know why. I just kept going back and persisting.
And then one day when I think I've dabbled in a bit of Thai boxing, then I went back years, like six months after I've done Thai boxing.
And I can remember sparring with him. I turned into a man when I was a kid.
And I can remember just putting him down with a body shot.
And after that, then it made me realize that...
I didn't mean to put him down with a body shot, but I put him down with a body shot.
And that's what made me realize then I thought I'm going to start doing Thai boxing.
And I moved on to that then.
Then I had some really good trainers. I had a lad called Martin Hayton.
He won me first Thai boxing trainer.
Steve Adams and Glenn Thompson.
Steve died about 10 years ago. He was really fit.
And they had a massive heart attack through being too fit.
So they had a massive impact on my life.
Because at the time as well, I was still a young kid.
I didn't really believe in myself.
I think we tied up from 18 to 25.
And mentally, I wasn't there yet.
I didn't believe in myself. I probably had all attributes.
But I just didn't believe in my ability, if that makes sense.
And it's not since now. Now I'm in my 40s, now I'm 45.
My mind's got stronger, but then your body starts to deteriorate.
Don't it? So like...
In a sense, I wish I had the body of what I did when I was 20.
But my mindset now, I think I would have been unbeatable.
It's crazy, but I'm glad it happened that way.
Because it humbles you, doesn't it?
I'm getting to age now where I have to start passing down a sword to someone else.
Because I'm still training with young guys and stuff like that.
To be fair, I do feel at my peak now.
I feel at my peak because I still compete and stuff like that.
So I'm still at a decent level with competing.
So I don't feel like I've lost it there.
But they've definitely shaped me, them people, with tide option and keep watching and stuff like that.
What point did you start accepting that you were good?
Because there's something that a lot of people, including myself, suffer from in the fire service and special forces and all that, which is the imposter syndrome.
You are actually performing at a pretty high level, but you still in your mind are like, yeah, you're not good enough.
Everyone else is better than you.
When did you kind of crest that where you had enough titles or maybe you beat certain people that you revered before, where you really accepted, okay, I'm actually a pretty solid elite fighter now?
I think with tide option, or when I fought, there was a guy called Gary McAllister years ago.
I used to look up to him and beat a few of my old coaches and training partners.
I think he had about 100 tide fights.
I remember one day, I was meant to be fighting a European guy at Bellis Rome in Manchester.
And they got me a guy that said, oh, you've had a change of opponent.
I turned up, I remember, this is after the festival, I turned up, I was eating McDonald's and Gary McAllister walked in and Steve Adams, the trainer, said to me, he says, that's who you're fighting.
He liked me. I looked up to this Gary McAllister.
And there was me there as a kid, child mentality, I was eating chicken nuggets and chips. It was not the best thing to have before a tide option fight.
And this is all you're fighting for, a British title.
And I can remember, I got in with him and I was that scared.
I was like on survival mode. And I can remember, first round, I came out and he didn't touch me.
Every time he came in there, I was front kicking him, keeping him off, kicking him to bits.
Second round went on, third round went on. It was a five round fight.
And I can always remember the trainer saying to me, Ian, you've got this, you won't match.
And I can always remember Gary McAllister, I used to look up to him as my hero when he came up to me and kissed me up hard and he says, you've got two more rounds of this.
And after that, I thought, you know, what an absolute dickhead you are.
And it made me realise that sometimes your heroes are not actually great people.
But yeah, it went distance anyway.
And it was like, I scored like, I thought I'd won four rounds and he won the last round.
He like old manned me, he like turned it on the last round.
But everyone over there in the attendance said, oh, you won.
And I think after that, that sort of like made me realise what sort of level I was at with Thai boxing.
And it was like a defining point in my life where I thought, hang on, I can hang with some of the best guys in Prussia and Europe.
And that was it really.
And then it happened later on again in life in the 40s when I wrestled Josh Barnett with Catch Wrestling.
I wrestled him, obviously.
Obviously, I've always liked Josh Barnett and things like that.
And then one day I found out he was coming to Snape to compete.
And no one wanted to compete against him.
And I said to my coach, he says, I'll compete against him.
He goes, he's 50 pound heavier than you.
I said, I'll be all right. I just wanted to compete against him because we were good.
And when I got him in and wrestled him, it was a great match.
It was like just...
Even if it was a loss, to be fair, we were just standing up fighting for that position and stuff like that.
And I think last minute I went for a check down and he went for a check down on me.
But it was a draw.
And I thought to go distance with like former UFC Heavyweight Champion at World and youngest Heavyweight Champion at World,
I thought I must have something to think about me with wrestling.
And that made me realize, so like I think they were two defining moments in my life where I thought,
like I am actually quite good at this, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I've watched that fight actually.
And it was a classic example of stalemate.
Like you just were nullifying each other.
Yeah, they were boring, but like just I would stop it just to get us all in really.
The fact he texted me, I think it was last year, asked me if he wanted me to wrestle him again.
I wanted to, but I just not trained for it.
I burnt out mentally, I think, because I had a few comps.
But like I said, probably wrestle him again, probably next year.
I don't know if he's going to compete against me, because I haven't competed for a while.
But I'd like to compete against him, especially now I've put some weight on,
because I think then I were like 89kg, I'm about 102 now.
So I think I'd do a bit better if you don't like weight because I'm heavier.
Absolutely.
What about on the Muay Thai side, when I think about that sport,
obviously some of the Thai fighters are the most revered.
What was some of, if it was Thai fighters or anyone,
what were some of the toughest matches you had in that sport specifically?
Probably again, it was more like when I look back, the fights were as they were.
It was more my head, my demons in my head.
I'm trying to think.
I remember I went to, I did world championships and I think I was 23 years old.
So I went to Thailand and I represented Great Britain.
And I fought a court guy and I remember emotions got to me.
I think he was a Caribbean lad and I remember he hit me with his punch.
The first eight counters I've ever had in my life, I remember it rattled my head.
And I remember third round or second round I came out really aggressive.
I lost control of myself.
I went a bit crazy and started biting his face in the middle of the fight.
So I think that helped.
I thought it was an absolute nutter, but it was more the emotions that got to me.
I wasn't like a bad person as in biting.
But then I lost and I remember being depressed.
And it was the first time I had ever experienced depression.
And I got a flight home.
I went to be there another three weeks.
I got a flight and went home because all that disgusted me, how I lost.
I only lost some points, but I lost.
I went home and I went to the boxing gym and I carried on training.
I think I had a couple of amateur boxing fights afterwards.
Because I know I could get a couple of amateur boxing fights in that time.
And then I rebuilt myself.
I fought again in European championships.
I think that was a year after I went to Portugal.
And I thought I've got to at least medal.
And I got it into my head.
I started believing in law of attraction then.
And I remember what happened then.
I think I fought a Swedish guy, Geetan.
And the next thing I got a bye.
And then I fought this big German guy.
And I got to bronze medal position.
I remember the first round this big German guy was beating me up.
And I thought if he hits me like that again he's going to knock me out.
The second round came out and I kept thinking if he hits me like that he's going to knock me out.
And then I looked at him and said in the third round I thought he's hit me with everything he's got.
And he hadn't put me out.
So I went at him in the third round.
And it was too late.
I just nicked the third round.
I reckon if I had fought like that at the beginning I would have won the match.
But then I'd have been fighting for gold and silver.
I'm glad I didn't win to be fair.
There was a Russian guy at the other end that black hit.
And I could have fought him with a baseball bat and hit him with a beatbeater.
They're another level like them.
The Russians are another level.
To be fair he probably had 100 fights him.
They're just different breed aren't they, the Russians?
Especially at 24 years old.
I think if I'd gone in with a stick he'd have took it off me and beat me up.
So that changed my views a bit.
I felt like a bronze medalist in the European.
So that made me realise how capable I was of doing good things.
I fought for another British title after that.
I won that and then I lost a love for tie boxing.
And got into MMA world then.
That was my next phase of the journey I suppose.
So I fought another guy called...
I think he was my friend actually.
So this was another mentally testing thing for me as well.
I fought a guy called Mike Lancaster who was 6 foot 7 and 12 stone.
So perfect build for tie boxing.
Built like a peperami.
And basically he was my friend.
I'd been to European championships and things like that.
So that was another obstacle I had to overcome.
I had to fight my team mate.
So that was a bit of a strange one for me.
So I ended up fighting him on a local show in this village for a British title.
And all I could think...
I had to get my head around fighting a friend really.
So I had to like...
This is when I sort of learned how to switch things off.
Before I used to look at people as friends and stuff like that.
Now I look at people when I compete against them as objects.
I don't look at them as a person.
I just look at them as a shape.
Obviously they were like a large shape, like skinny shape.
So I just came out I think for a third round for a British title.
And because he was taller and skinnier I kept kicking him on arms.
And I broke his wrist in the third round I think for a British title against him.
So that was another defining moment for me.
Because that's like getting my head around fighting people I know.
It's a weird one I think.
If you like someone it's hard to get angry towards them isn't it?
So like I said then that's when I discovered how to overcome things and look at people differently as an object in a sporting environment.
So now that's what I do.
Whenever I look at someone, if they're tall and skinny I think they're just an object.
If they're short and fat I think they're an object.
And I look at them differently from a grappling or a striking perspective.
If they're tall and gangly I think I look at the areas where they're dangerous.
So obviously we're dangerous with long range punching and short range elbowing.
So I thought I was going to kick his weapons and break his weapons.
And it worked for me.
So now if they're fat, something like that, and I think they're unfit, I'll try and wear them out by moving about with fitness and drag them into deep waters that way.
So now as I look at them as objects it works better for me.
That's interesting.
Again this was point fighting but I remember fighting one of my friends in one of the regional tournaments and I was all smiley happy and he murdered me.
He destroyed me.
And so the next time it was having to switch it, like you said I didn't see him as objects but yeah just having to turn that switch from whoever you might have known them, you might have even revered them, which I had as well.
One of the club champions.
But at that point it's just you and that other person on the mat.
But it's interesting the way you look at them as objects because that's what the military does with some of their gun training.
They use silhouettes rather than actual people on the targets.
Yeah it makes sense.
I suppose I've learnt it the hard way.
You know what I mean?
You learn stuff the hard way don't you?
You learn the psychology.
I won't change it, I would not change the way I've learnt.
I've made loads of mistakes over the years and I've learnt the hard way.
Psychology, how I used to lure people in.
I learnt through watching boxing as a kid.
You get Roberto, Geran and Marvin Hagler.
They were like horrible guys really.
You know what they were getting with them too.
They wanted to maim you.
Mike Tyson and other wanted to murder you didn't they?
And people like that.
And then I used to look at like Sugar Ray Leonard and I used to think, how is he so good?
And like stay composed and how he carried himself.
He was almost like a nice guy, he used to carry himself well, wear suits and stuff like that.
But then when I look back at him, I look back at him now and I think he was evil.
He was a different type of evil in me.
He was like, he almost lured people in like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Because I remember he fought Marvin Hagler and Marvin Hagler, he invited Marvin Hagler out for a meal with his wife.
And he says, we've come for a meal with my wife.
And Marvin Hagler says, I'm about to retire from boxing.
And a couple of months later then, Sugar Ray Leonard called him out because he knew he'd like mentally got him.
Because he knew he was ready for packing in.
And he got in with him didn't he?
And he did the same with Geran.
He like lured him in and out boxed him.
And I almost, it sounds horrible this.
I almost look at him as a sick individual.
As in like, it's almost like a paedophile.
They lure people in, nice like the kids.
They lure them in to be the friend, to be friend.
And then they can be so mean and callous to that kid.
And that's the way I look at like fighters.
You have an evil like a character like Tyson.
Who you know what you get, he's just angry and aggressive and wants to kill you.
And you get them people who will like come across as nice and kind.
But really, they're the worst type of people because they can do it with a smile on their face.
Almost like a calm psychopath or a serial killer.
Or a politician.
Yeah, or a politician.
And that's what I look for in people now.
At least with angry people, you know what you're getting.
But then you get them people who are coming up to you.
A bit like friends backstabbing you.
You look at me and think, oh they're a nice person.
But deep down they've got an ulterior motive behind them.
So I always look for the nice people.
And I think why are they so good?
And then I realized that they're like serial killers.
That's interesting.
Yeah, psychological warfare.
Yeah, calm psychopath.
And that's how I'll try and compete now.
I try and be calm.
But at the same time, you've got to be able to sometimes dig deep into your...
Because everyone's got a dark side, haven't they?
You've got to be a bit mean and callous at times.
So you've got to lure people in and things like that.
And I think I've learned that from wrestling.
Because I've competed against a lot of my friends in wrestling.
And that's made me almost like I took that side of things away from it with wrestling.
I remember competing against a guy.
He was my teammate actually, a left-hand Wade.
And I used to always end up with him in finals.
I wrestled him in British finals.
And I wrestled him in Catch Wrestling World Championships.
But he was like...
You know when you need like Marmadale, you needed Joe Frazier?
I needed him to make me better.
But at the time, we did like each other.
But there was like an unwritten rule.
He wanted to beat me and I wanted to beat him.
And he was like quite nasty.
I remember wrestling him and he'd like, book me in the face.
We were doing all dirty tricks.
So I used to do them back to him.
But what I used to do, I used to always smile on my face and laugh at him.
So it got to him more mentally.
Because he'd be thinking, why is this nice kid doing this to me?
And I used to do it like that.
But obviously, at the time, I needed him and he needed me.
So to make each other better.
So I'm glad for that.
But I've learned a lot so much from competing.
It just makes you a better person.
Before we go to kind of the grappling side.
When I was living in California, I went and trained in Shootbox.
They had a gym there for a little bit.
And it was the closest thing I'll ever get to Fight Club.
It doesn't matter what size you were.
It was full contact all the time.
I'd leave there with concussions and perforated eardrums and broken noses.
I learned that I wasn't the world's biggest pussy.
But I wouldn't say I learned a lot of technique, to be honest.
And now as we progress through and we talk more about concussion and TBI and CTE,
especially in the combat sports, I'm seeing more and more gyms be more efficient with their training.
Of course, you've got to have some hard training, but a lot less,
you know, really hard level striking in the sparring session, some of them.
What has been the evolution for you, if any, as far as that kind of less is more,
reducing the amount of head trauma in sparring and saving it for the ring or the cage?
Eh, you know, I used to spar hard all the time.
Not because I wanted to spar, but because, like, the type of people I was mixing with,
it was almost like a massive ego to try and knock each other out.
And I suppose that comes from boxing.
Because you go in a boxing gym, they're pretty ruthless, aren't they?
I can remember my old boxing coach, Fred Drummerson, he was like Mickey off Rocky.
And I can remember him throwing him in with, like, travellers, like gypsies.
And I can remember sparring with him.
We just... I didn't have any technique. All it was was just pretty strong.
And I can remember, all I know, we're right cross left hook and we used to just bite down
on those gum shields and knock ten barrels of shit out of each other really.
I can remember going home with, like, headaches, thinking,
oh, it must be dehydration or it must be, like, I've had too much sugar or stuff like that.
And no-one knew about concussion then.
No-one knew about it. Like, you're a pussy if you've got dots,
or you're a pussy if you're an head guard.
So it was like one of them type of gyms.
And then even in, like, my 30s, because I still did boxing,
then I was still competing boxing, I can remember sparring and getting hit with hard head shots
and my face, I can remember my face just using my jaw and my head.
And at the time I didn't even know what concussion was.
So I got to, like, I think I was probably about 37, I watched the film.
On concussion it was Will Smith and it was called Concussion about American football players.
And I think it was probably, what, seven years ago.
I cracked up a bit mentally. Well, I thought I cracked up mentally.
It was, well, I didn't realise I had concussion.
And I was feeling really suicidal and really it sent me nuts, basically.
It's like, I like having, like, visions about beating my work friends up and stuff like that.
I wanted to beat management up, stuff like that.
And I was thinking, this is not like me.
And I didn't realise it was because I was sparring all the time.
I was, like, every day I was sparring because I had a PT in my shed.
I'd get, like, big lads come down and say, oh, can we spar?
And I'd spar. And I'd probably, you know, 15, 20 rounds a day, four times a week,
getting hit by these 16, 17 stone lads, not knowing I was getting concussion and stuff like that.
And it was towards the end. I was sparring with lighter lads and getting hit with jabs.
And I was seeing, like, flashes in my head.
And in the end, I ended up being off work because I like being like,
I'm not like a depressive person. I'll get depressed.
And I, like, really negative towards everyone.
I just didn't want them to do well. I hated people.
I wanted to crack people. And it messed my head up.
And that was my thing with CT. And I think it was.
So now what I'll do, I try not to spar.
I like to spar, but I try not to spar as much.
I had all time now. So like now when I spar,
I spar more like trying not to get hit.
I get pissed off at the same if I get hit now.
Do you know why? Because you see it, don't you?
You see it now. There's loads of, like, gyms I've been in all the years.
There's loads of guys in boxing gyms, side boxing gyms, even grappling gyms,
where they leave, like, you know what I'm saying, like, leaving their careers in gym, don't they?
And they have loads of hard sparring in gym, and next thing we're talking,
funny and stuff like that. Is it Nam Pham? Can you remember him?
Yeah, I saw that video. So sad.
I watched the video of him and I just thought, wow,
there's such an articulate guy to talk, like, when they were talking,
and the next thing he's struggling to get messages out and words out.
But I can always tell when I've sparred hard, because I can't get conversation going,
and things like that.
Oh, right. It's a big thing, I think.
So now I wear bigger gloves, not just for me, for my training partner,
so now I always wear 18-ounce boxing gloves if I'm boxing sparring and stuff like that.
And obviously, I see it, like, now I see it as a fast game of tiggy.
If I hit someone, I'll just touch them rather than that.
Obviously, there's times when you spar and someone hits you hard,
and you think, like, I'm going to hit them hard because it turns into ego then,
doesn't it? Ego sparring, I suppose.
I like to say I haven't got an ego, but I think when someone takes a piss
and they try and brain me and hit me hard, I'll hit them back hard
just to knock them down if they go through.
I've learnt hard ways, you know, like, I've learnt with head trauma and stuff like that.
It's not a good thing, is it?
No, and especially this is the thing, I mean, there's the acute element,
when I used to have the headaches and, you know, I got my jaw dislocated a few times
and all these things, so obviously, you know exactly what's going on there,
but it's that long-term one, and it's interesting,
and I'm glad that we talked about this because the TBI's and CTEs
are behind a lot of the suicides in the military,
and also in the breachers in the law enforcement too,
because the concussions they're getting from the explosions.
So understanding that in that community and also in your community,
in the combat sports, now hopefully these conversations will help
the next generations of young fighters so that we're a lot more diligent
in, you know, lighter sparring and saving those impacts for the ring
or maybe a couple of hard sessions before the ring.
Yeah, it's like, when I see it me now, it's like,
the reason a kid does sport is because it's fun, isn't it?
At times they enjoy it, and what we do after a bit,
like, I think when you get to professional level of fighting and things like that,
the fun, you lose the fun element, and it's like business,
and everyone's, it's massive egos and things like that,
and everyone's trying to use sparring partners to hurt them.
Almost for the ego, isn't it now, with social media,
they're putting videos sparring, knocking the mate down,
and it's almost like the norm, and you think, it's dangerous, isn't it?
You know, like, now, I just try and teach for fun.
Plus as well, I think when you've got, like, when you're training with your ego
and things like that, you don't learn anything.
All you learn is, like, just to feed your ego.
Whereas if you learn with fun and make mistakes, you learn more about it.
So, like, sparring or grappling, I think you should be trained,
almost like with a childlike mentality, through fun,
because that's how you learn.
Whereas if it's serious, you're not going to learn,
because you make mistakes and you just get mad and stuff like that.
So I think you've got to almost train childlike, you know,
and that's another element I use now, like, I break things down into games.
So, like, I get lads sparring, I say, right, you can only, like, use your jab,
and other guy can only use his right cross.
So it makes you realise how important the jab is at controlling distance
and footwork and distance management and things like that.
And it makes you... And I'll say, right, you can only use, like, in a round,
you can only use, like, 20 right crosses.
So it makes you pick your shots a bit more as well,
and it makes you realise you've got to set your shot up
to land the right hand or the back hand, shall I say.
So, yeah, I always try and break it down into fun games now,
so that people are not getting as injured, you know, like...
Whereas if I'm sparring, I'm like, all right, you're boxing,
he's trying to take you down, or you're starting from this position,
he's trying to defend, so it learns them in, like, a fun way of programming it.
So they've been there before and they've spent more time with it and things like that.
Plus, less injured as in it, because it's more a controlled environment.
So I think you've got to do that.
Absolutely. Well, talk to me about MMA then.
When I finally went to, you know, get into the kind of Jiu-Jitsu side,
I realised again how much of the entire game was missing without doing grappling.
And for us in the UK, obviously, we don't grow up with wrestling
like a lot of the American schools do.
So what was that journey for you?
You're a great stand-up fighter by this point.
Talk to me about the introduction into grappling.
Basically, there was a guy called...
I used to... Well, my mum still lives on, like, a little street,
and there was a guy called Tony Cook who used to live next door,
but once with my mum.
And he still lives there now. He's a great guy.
He works for Dawes, and he works for 60.
I think he still works for Dawes now.
And he used to always talk about this guy called Andy Cooper,
and he did a sport. At the time, I didn't know what it was.
He says he used Bale Tudo, which obviously in Portuguese means
anything goes, doesn't it?
And Andy, well, obviously, had started going up out of town
and stuff like this by this time.
And Tony used to work at this bar called Sports Bar,
and he used to work with a tall skinny lanky guy called Andy Cooper.
And to look at him, he just looked like a skinny piece of...
a skinny Fred with big hands for knuckles, and almost like a pepper army.
And obviously, he was the first person I ever seen with cauliflower in his.
And then this one day, it was like an invite only.
Tony says, oh, why don't you come down and train?
And I'm like 21-year-old.
I know, I've been 23-year-old actually.
And he says, why don't you come down and train? It's Bale Tudo.
And I went down, and Andy was there.
And they were like, you're in an old sports hall.
And I remember getting in with Andy.
And it was the first time, I remember trying to box him.
And he kept throwing this over and right and hitting me on the chin.
I found it frustrating, he kept hitting me.
Every time, it's over and right and hitting me on the chin.
And the next thing, he took me down, got me back, strangled me.
And it was like, I thought, why is he skinny?
Because at the time, I was probably like...
probably about 13, 14 stone, so quite big for my size then.
And Andy was probably like 12 stone, went through.
And he kept strangling me, I was getting frustrated thinking,
how is this skinny kid doing this?
And then, honestly, he must have tapped me out 10, 15 times in a session.
And it made me realize that there were more for me to learn.
And that was like my defining moment then.
It made me go out and learn grappling.
And Andy was pretty similar to me really.
He was self-taught to me, thought that.
He did boxing.
And then his granddad at the time, I think one of his relations,
I think it was his granddad, were a cat wrestler.
But Andy wasn't bothered about that.
We were just learning off VHS tapes.
And he used to tape us tapes and give us, and we were like, learn this grappling.
And then after a bit, then he got a cage made in this gym.
And it was like, kind of gated iron, honestly, it was ridiculous.
I remember like, I can't remember getting my toes stuck in it,
it nearly ripped my toe off and my face was nearly getting ripped off.
And Andy just used to stay in it.
And it was like, because you were a doorman, all doorman used to come down.
And they used to just go in round for round.
And they were like, it was like Clint Eastwood.
What are you doing over in Leve?
And it just like, it just beats us all up.
And it went something like a conveyor belt, which got beat up.
And I think Andy were like, probably fighting like MMA
in early, like 90, I think he might have been 98, 99 with him.
And he just used to travel down on himself and fight.
I think it was, then it was a millennium brawl or something like that.
And then it got changed to cage rage and stuff like that.
And it was probably the first cage rage champion to come out with our area.
And, but it fought everyone, all like big names,
but no one knew what the sport was at the time.
It was like when it first came out in the UK,
it was like when Lee Remedios and Ian Freeman were fighting and stuff like that.
And Andy just used to go down and absolutely knock, he used to knock everyone out.
It was just a skinny streak of piss really.
And he used to beat everyone, but he was the guy who got me into like MMA.
And then obviously I fell in love.
Because I would only train with him once, twice a week.
I needed to find some more grappling people.
So I went to Doncaster and I found a Gracie Barra gym.
And I started training there under like, there was a guy called Paul Murphy,
Neil White and Neil Owen.
And then I then pursued to train then with some other guys called,
my coaches actually, Darren Curry and Helen Curry,
who were like black belts at the time.
So they were teaching, so I like dropped in about,
learning Jiu Jitsu from different gyms then.
So that's when like I almost started my career then in MMA.
And I had like, the first fight I fought, well there were para,
they called him the governor, Sandy Geddes.
He was a bit of a journeyman back in day, but he was like,
ranked number 18 country as a pro.
So I had no pro career as an MMA fighter.
And I got a lot of shit scared.
I'd never seen him fighting a couple of weeks before.
And they were in an absolute bloodbath against this guy.
Andy says, oh, you're fighting him.
So I remember fighting him.
And I was shit scared honestly, because I didn't know what to expect.
I remember I just threw a low kick and hit him as hard as I could.
And it buckled his legs and he just ran at me, tried to take me down.
And I somehow managed to get his back suplexing and choke him.
And he tapped and I thought, god that was easy.
And I remember that was my first fight at MMA.
I think I came away with about a grand and a half,
I saw a lot of internet for beating him.
And then I thought it made sense then for that transition from Thai boxing to MMA,
because I like fighting for British titles,
getting 250 quid, getting elbowed in face at Thai boxing,
no internet exposure or anything like that.
And I was getting like a grand and a half a fight,
for two minutes really, we're grappling.
And in a sense, you're probably taking less head trauma
than you do Thai boxing, don't you, with MMA.
But then after that, it was just hard fights after that.
I seemed to be fighting former world champions and things like that.
And that really, so it was good.
Good experience from the S-Bowls.
What have you seen as far as the evolution of BJJ in the UK?
Because when I went to university in North London,
I remember a lifeguard at the same time at Hampstead Heath,
they had all the swimming ponds there,
and some of the guys are trained at London shoot fighters.
So the UFC started, it was the VHS,
and then I kind of worked with some real MMA fighters.
I don't know what level they got to.
But I mean, Jiu Jitsu was so in its infancy,
seemingly when it came to the UK at that time.
So what have you seen as far as the evolution from the way you were training
and the number of gyms to where we are now?
Right now, I think it's blown a massive round at Jiu Jitsu.
Yeah, I think it's brilliant what they've done,
but it almost like is, you know what I mean,
now because it gives false sense of security in some ways.
Because you get a lot of geeks involved in Jiu Jitsu, don't you?
You know, like nerds.
What I like, I love it because it's brilliant for confidence
and stuff like that for kids and stuff like that.
And I always say, as a martial artist,
I always say learn grappling arts first,
whether it be wrestling, Jiu Jitsu or Sambo, something like that.
I always say that.
But it's gone too sporty now.
You know, like it's very, like it's all flashy stuff, isn't it?
Like Della Riva, X-Guard and stuff like that.
And like as far as, like the chokes and that,
I really like the streets and stuff like that and security and that.
But I like the old school type Jiu Jitsu from back in the day,
where it's gone like, everyone's like pulling guard
and a group of flying triangles and stuff like that.
And to be fair, it's not realistic.
Is it? Somewhere it's not realistic.
I'm not saying it don't work because it does work,
but I just think for self-defense purposes,
it depends what school you go to.
Some schools are very like MRA orientated
and they teach it for like combat sports and real life.
And then others are very sports orientated
and teach it for sports Jiu Jitsu, getting points and like pulling guard.
So I think I was lucky really because my coaches who taught me,
they were very old school.
And obviously they taught you to learn the guard and stuff like that.
But they almost said to me,
listen, you don't want to be underneath.
You want to be in a street fight.
You want to be on top hitting and you know like that.
And it's same with wrestling. Wrestling's taught me you need to be on top.
So yeah, I think it has.
It's blown up massively.
And I think it won't surprise me if it's going to be an Olympic sport eventually,
because it's absolutely massive in a moment Jiu Jitsu.
Virtually in every town now we've got like Gracie Barra and things like that.
So I think it's good,
but sometimes it can create a false sense of security,
not by the coaches because martial arts is good for confidence and stuff like that.
But it's making like most Jiu Jitsu gyms I've trained at,
they don't teach any throws.
It's just starting off your back and stuff like that.
Which I get, it's meant for smaller people and things like that,
for like women and stuff like that.
It's a self-defense sport.
But teaching a lot of like stuff like getting to leg locks and stuff like that,
which do work.
But when you get punched in the face when someone's on top of you,
it's not particularly great for realism in a sense.
Whereas I think something like Sambo's a bit more realer.
I compare it to, like I said, Taekwondo.
I was winning all kinds of trophies,
but if I'd walked out and got into a street fight,
I probably would have got my ass handed to me.
And there's an application though.
In fact, funny enough, I got into stunts and did that for years,
and that type of martial arts looks great on film or on stage.
Yeah, it looks brilliant.
But when it comes to the realism,
where I train now is a sport-focused Jiu-Jitsu school.
But when I roll, I'm always thinking about that,
because I was a striker first way before I ever did anything else.
So I'm thinking about, okay, if I am underneath, how do I sweep?
Now, if I was here, I could obviously use elbows or get them out
and then strike or whatever it is.
But there's a lot of focus on leg locks and that kind of thing.
And again, there's a lot of people that arguably are not violent people,
that under those rules, absolutely destroy me every single time.
But I also am old enough and wise enough to understand
that if it was where you were allowed to actually be a violent person
with your limbs, it would change that dynamic a little bit.
That's right.
Yeah, and then not grappling as well, not starting from your feet,
which we do, you can choose either or.
But we're not very good at it, I'll say that.
That's a big missing piece as well, because you've got striking
and then you've got the floor.
Well, there's this big piece in between where a good grappler
can make me hit the floor very, very hard and I won't be there anymore.
Yeah, so I call it gray area, because it's like not many people teach it.
It's like either boxing or straight to the floor.
No one really teaches like the, I call it like the dirty aspect of it,
me like, and this is where I like it best.
When I was younger, I used to jab and move and stuff like that.
Now as an older, I don't move as good because I'm heavier.
So I try and like use wrestling to drag people into deep water.
So I use like, collar ties and under option, head control and things like that
to make it a dirty fight.
So like, if I get a really good boxing guy coming down sparring with me,
well, I tend to do it first round, because I know there's a better boxer than me.
I'll lure him into like an upper body wrestling match,
like grabbing on pulling his head down and hitting him and stuff like that.
So then it takes him into a different energy system.
So it's like using his anaerobic energy system,
because most boxers are aerobic aren't they?
They do a lot of running, a lot of bag work and stuff like that.
So I'll lure him into like, almost like a dirty fight, like make it rough.
And then what I do then, I set them around, I come out and box them.
Because I know I've got blood pumping in the arms and in the shoulders and stuff like that.
So it's like almost like doing a weight session of like, train the arms,
then the arms are slower then and that's when I box them.
So I like to use energy systems against people.
Especially if they're pure boxers, that's what I like.
Maybe it might take me two or three rounds to grind them down.
And I'm on my chest like almost wrestling them and wearing them down with my head in the face and stuff like that.
But it takes him into a different energy system.
And I think that's what a lot of people don't train as well.
Because like most people, they have a runner, the lift weights, or something like that, or an Olympic lifter.
But I train all three aspects of it.
So I like train like me and a robert. I train my aerobics and I train my creatine phosphate.
So I try and be well rounded in every area.
Same with fighting, I've done it with fighting.
I learned that I want the best boxer, I want to learn what the best build for Tye Rocks,
I want the best build for Ju-Jitsu.
But if you learn a bit of every sport, it makes you a better person, a better fighter, or a better athlete.
And I think that's what it's done for me.
Each area, because I train in everything, it's made me understand martial arts better.
What about the strength and conditioning side?
I did obviously just the actual martial arts training and then I got into CrossFit for quite a long time.
And now I've switched to one called Wolf Brigade, which is a lot more maces and kettlebells,
which I found is really good, especially for grappling.
Like if you had a Turkish get up, whatever it is, 70, 80 pounds, that's the same as stiff arming someone off side control, for example.
So what kind of philosophies do you like when you're training for combat sports specifically?
Well, like I said, it depends as well.
I've never had like, do you know when these people go to that training camp, 12 week camps and stuff like that,
say, oh, I'm in a 12 week camp, I think it's a load of bullshit, know you that.
I just like, it's like, yeah, you can peak and stuff like that, and I believe that.
But I always train me for like, pure fighting.
I just think like I'm lucky in the job that I do, I'm around it all, whether it be psychology, doors and strength and conditioning.
So what I tend to do, mate, I try and like stay 75% fit all year round, not like super fit, but I know I'm fitter than average person.
So like what I mean by that, I go to work on a Monday, I take spinning.
So that's my smart way of running for like cardio.
Then I at least do like four days a week weights.
So before days a week weights, I used to do circuits a bit like CrossFit circuits and stuff like that.
But what I found is when I was doing them all time, it will wrecking me, you know, like because of my age and stuff like that.
So now I broke it down, wild or I like, I try and spar at least some sort of like striking.
Three times a week.
And I try and wrestle or grapple three times a week.
So I get in that element and that's my most important element.
And then like my weights, I'll go to work out, I'll go to work out like a 30 minute session.
It might say, I probably train like a typical bodybuilder really.
But what way I do it, I'll do like, say I do four exercises for my legs.
I might do like a squat, which is like an Olympic lift in a sense, isn't it?
Then I'll do something that's aesthetic.
So like, might be something like fluffy, like a leg kill or a leg extension.
And then I'll do something gymnastic, like a box jump, something plyometric.
And it's same if I do my chest. If I do my chest, I might do two aesthetic exercises.
Then I might do like plyometric press ups or something like that and something Olympic-y, like a power lift.
And it's same with my shoulders. I might do clean and press.
Or I might put like a kettlebell snatch in it or something like that.
So I'll do like two lifts which are aesthetic, a gymnastic one and an Olympic one.
So it's keeping me in all the energy systems.
And then at the end, if I'm like feeling like, say if I'm doing this striking, because normally what I'll do,
I plan it where I might do a weight session and then a PT might come in.
And I might do some boxing sparring or some Thai boxing sparring or some MMA sparring.
So that's my cardio.
But if not, then I might do something like use skiers or skill meals or things like that, like cross-fitting.
So I try and hit it all around everything.
But then when I've got a competition coming up, what I don't last two weeks, I might have to run,
I might have like three runs in.
And what I'll do, I don't run all the time.
I only run like four weeks prior to a match.
So I might do a three-mile run, like the day where I try and sprint a mile and then do some sprints.
And I put that in when we're training.
So I'm lucky in that aspect. I try not to over train. I try and train smart as well.
It does completely.
What about the other side of that? Rest and recovery.
Talk to me about any recovery tools that you use, the importance of sleep, some of those things.
I don't sleep. This is a weird thing, right?
Honestly, I bet I sleep two hours a week, two hours a night.
I am the weirdest. I just don't sleep. I do not sleep. I don't know what's up with me.
I don't know if it's because I'm over training, but it's almost like I don't need to sleep.
And I've been like that for 10 years. I like probably, if I'm lucky, I might get two to three hours a night.
It's weird. And I seem to be able to perform on that.
I don't know whether I'm going to collapse and drop dead one day or what.
But I've got worse when my dad died two years ago.
And I think my sleep pattern is not even worse.
But I seem to get by with zero sleep. It's weird.
Did you sleep better when you were younger?
Yeah, I slept really good when I was younger.
But now I'm like, I tend to get in bed at 10.
Honestly, this is, it does run a stroke, because I get in bed at 10.
Between 10 and 11, I'll have a really good sleep.
So I don't know whether that's my REM sleep, where I'm like sleeping really good.
And then I'll guarantee that I'm awake from 10 till about four in the morning.
And then I get up at seven for work or six for work.
It's crazy. And I seem to be able to cope on that.
And I never have naps in there or anything.
But then that's another thing. I'll wake up at night as well.
And I can eat healthy all day. And I'll guarantee I'll get up at night and I'll eat.
I could eat a liter of ice cream and about 10 chocolate bars.
Honestly, I'm shocking my recovery.
But it's weird. I almost feel like I'm a bit of a freak in a sense.
Because I still compete at an eye level.
Like I said, I competed over a month.
And I won British against really high level guys.
On a zero hour sleep. And I eat shit.
And I just seem to, I don't know if it's a mindset thing or what.
Or I just seem to be able to get by.
I'll probably catch up with you one day.
But like I said, I'm 45 now and I'm still competing at an eye level.
But then when you listen to podcasts on Gordon Ryan and people like that.
They were always eating Five Guys and everything.
And GSP were eating McDonald's and Burger King and stuff like that.
Were no competing. So I'm not a real believer in...
You are what you eat because it does knock you up on insides.
But what I'm saying is, I think if you train at an eye level.
It doesn't really matter what sort of calories you put in.
Because you're going to burn them off.
And I can perform better on a chip butter than I can on salad and rice.
If that makes sense.
So I don't know whether I'm a freak for doing it or whether it's a mental thing in my head.
But I can seem to perform really good on shit food.
I'm not saying I eat shit food all the time.
But I like to have been for a Sunday dinner which is not bad.
But I can perform on anything really.
I zero hours sleep.
The sleep medicine world.
And I talk about this all the time because our firefighters are sleep deprived.
For decades literally.
And it is very detrimental.
But there is an anomaly.
There's a point whatever percent of the population that can do well on less sleep.
And again genetically they're not sure why.
But I also wonder if you used to sleep well.
If maybe even some of the head trauma has affected your brain chemistry.
Probably has.
But I do like ice baths and things like that.
I have a lot of ice baths.
And I'm always in sauna as well.
At least twice a week.
So I think I'm getting like my body.
Like even my body.
Like all my mates who train.
Who carried on with me from the beginning.
Like when they started early on in their careers.
But they've all had operations and the bodies are dropping to bits.
And a lot of them.
Odd ones still come to me probably my age.
But it's almost like.
I feel like Peter Pan.
Because it was almost like when I was younger.
I would always be angry with puberty and stuff like that.
Like all my mates were going out drinking and stuff like that.
When I was 15.
I think because I looked after myself from a young age.
And like.
I've always trained from as long as I've known.
Even though like.
From like 12 year old I've been doing weights.
And I think that's been a big part of it.
And so the Pilates as well.
I teach that.
So I think that.
I think Pilates on its own has been like a godsend for me.
Because I can like.
I ache and things like that.
But I can just train at an high level.
It's weird all the time.
And to be fair.
You know like.
You get these people like.
It's weird.
You get these people and they have to have like a 10 minute wall.
And stuff like that before they get on mats.
I'm not that person me.
I just think.
You never see a big cat.
Stretching off before it goes to kill a gazelle do you.
So I think my body.
As daft as it sounds.
I think my body is that conditioned.
Because we're all training and like wrestling boxing.
And plies and stuff like that.
Is that conditioned.
I can just like step up mat.
Don't get me wrong my lungs feel like they're going to collapse.
But my body feels fine.
As if I can like.
Just go 100 mile an hour straight from off.
And that's what I.
That's almost what I want really.
Because it's like a fight isn't it.
If I'm on doors or I get attacked out on the street.
I want to be able to grow from get go straight away.
Be able to perform straight away.
So it's probably the type of training what I've been doing for years.
Has like programmed me to that.
And it's almost like.
Like a sleep and stuff like that.
It's almost like I'm living like.
What is it now.
It's almost like I'm living in fights or flights all the time.
Like a caveman.
I don't really sleep.
I'm always training and stuff like that.
I feel like that's what I always do.
Like an home together all the time.
Like I always want to grow.
Everything's hectic and stuff like that.
But I like that stress.
Do you know what I like to be able to.
And it's almost like I seek out stress.
If that makes sense.
I'm not like one of these who like.
Wants to go out and cause trouble and that.
But that's what I train for for violence.
It's like my martial arts is like.
I'm not a trouble cause.
I want to be fit and strong.
Be able to do that.
And like even my life is pretty hectic all the time.
I'll go to work like tomorrow.
I'll go to work at 16th morning.
I'll probably do three classes at work.
I'll come home then at four.
And I'll probably do my weights at work.
And then I'll do another two sessions.
Another two PT sessions when I get home.
And I'll probably be sparring or wrestling.
So I'm like.
I'm always doing something.
I'm like very active and I'll go all the time.
And that's probably why I don't sleep.
I can't switch off.
I mean definitely the consistency of your training.
I'm 50 now and I just did a firefighter.
Like fundraising competition.
It was almost like a crossfit type one.
But there was firefighter movements too.
And again I'm not going to win any world championships.
But like you said at 50.
I was still competing against the young ones.
I don't put it.
I'm focused on sleep a lot now.
Cheers.
But I think it's the point is that if you.
If you never stop.
You've fostered this resilience.
And from the sleep point of view.
I'm still working on getting back.
But I do believe exactly what you said.
If you are constantly just.
Moving which is the body is supposed to do.
And if we weren't. If we were prehistoric.
People then we'd be out hunting every day.
And gathering and building houses.
And you know all the things.
And I think this is what's sad about.
Some elements of modern society.
Is this discouragement of doing too much work.
And rest and recovery is super super important.
But the body is capable of amazing things.
And it's probably that consistency.
That's kept your resilience.
Yeah.
The way I see it me.
It's like.
I still want to compete me.
At 53. That's my goal.
53.
My coach.
My wrestling coach.
He competed at 52.
And then there was another guy who I looked up to.
Ian Bromley.
He obviously took his life.
And he was very much like me.
Probably hardest man I've ever met.
Mentally.
Well I thought he wasn't. Mentally and physically.
You know like. I remember he wrestled.
He just had his knee operated on.
His ACL operated on.
Three weeks prior to world championships.
And he entered it. Oh no sorry. British Championships.
And he went at 52 year old.
He went on and won it.
And he just had his ACL done.
And then a year after that he snapped his collar bone.
And his collar bone was stuck out of his.
I've never seen anything like it. His collar bone.
And his nailing coming out of his chest.
And it says if we operate on it.
You'll lose the movement of your arm.
But if we leave it. It's going to get worse.
So we went and got on that and wrestled.
At British title against a guy who were like.
Half his age.
And won. And I just thought.
After seeing Ian Bromley doing that.
He'd set bar for me.
And it made me realise that.
Like your body.
Is capable of lots of things isn't it.
If you want to do it.
And that's why I like.
Same with me. Like fighting.
I respect fighters who are like.
Old. Like. Well.
They're not even old. Like Dan Anderson.
When he fought this big foot world title.
And Randy Couture.
And people like that.
I respect them sort of fighters.
And then Bernard Hopkins with boxing.
And stuff like that.
To me they're like. They're proper Spartans.
Still fighting and stuff like that.
Because I always used to look at like.
The ones growing up.
And they were my favourite ever boxer.
And they like still compete.
Why is he still compete?
But then when I look at it.
That's all he knows.
If you keep fighting away from him.
What has he got?
And he's still skillful enough.
To hold his own with younger people.
And people say yeah but he's blemishing his record.
But then at the end of the day.
He's lived the Spartan lifestyle.
So that's the type of lifestyle.
I want to live.
I always want to compete.
I always want to test my body mentally and physically.
And things like that.
So I think it's a good thing to do.
But most people are like.
Most people are lazy.
I don't mean in a bad way.
Kids of society are lazy aren't they?
They're soft. They're soft.
I grew up playing out at night.
And climbing trees and breaking my arms.
And stuff like that.
Now they're sat there on the playstations.
And all sorts in the bedroom.
Just living a soft life.
So I'm glad I've lived this life.
But I've lived. You know what I mean?
One day I know I'm going to sit back and look.
And reflect back.
At the moment I look at like.
I know titles to me that I've won.
People say I think I've won about 12 titles.
Like national titles.
But I don't even see them as anything.
I just see them as experiences.
I know one day I'll probably look back at it.
And reflect back and think.
I've done good there.
But I don't look at it now and think.
It's good.
I'm like a magpie. I want more titles.
I want to be like.
Not like a legacy.
I want to be remembered in a sense.
In Catch Wrestling.
And I think that's what you should aspire to.
Well speaking of Catch Wrestling.
That was a good segue.
So I had Eric Poulsen on the show.
I've had Dan Severn on the show.
When I look at Jiu Jitsu now.
Which you know arguably has so much.
You know.
The efficacy.
So efficient and effective when it comes to the grappling side.
But then.
Dan he did a seminar down here.
And I took that. And you realize that Catch Wrestling.
There's all these other spaces.
Between a lot of the Jiu Jitsu.
Especially when you look at the rules.
You can't crank. You can't do this. You can't do that.
But when it comes to especially law enforcement.
Or like you said.
You're a dad protecting your child in the community.
This is another entire unexplored area.
That I think is fascinating.
So talk to me about how you entered Catch Wrestling.
And let's talk about that entire kind of philosophy.
Well I suppose it boils.
Like with Catch.
I never really knew what it was.
So say like we're MMA.
So like Andy Cooper.
That trainer we're on about.
He was telling me about his granddad.
Did Catch or his great granddad.
Something did Catch. And I never heard it.
But we used to watch.
A guy called Tony Ticini.
Who did Catch Wrestling.
And what of a guy now?
Tony Ticini.
I think it was Matt Fiore.
And he had like loads of condition videos on wrestling.
And things like that.
I came out watching it thinking.
I'd love to learn that Catch. But there were no like.
They always said there's no wrestling in Britain.
Didn't they?
Like there's no wrestling in Britain.
But I went to.
I think it was Las Vegas.
And I trained at.
Cobra Kai I think it was.
And I trained there while I was on holiday.
And I trained with some wrestlers.
And I was just doing MMA.
And I can remember.
I got up Matt with him.
And they were like just doing pure wrestling rules.
And I didn't understand it. I can remember.
I liked doing really well. They couldn't take me down.
And they were all saying how long you wrestled for.
And I was like I've done jiu-jitsu and MMA.
And I thought god I'm doing really well against these college wrestlers.
So then I tried to find out a wrestling gym.
In the UK.
And I found a guy called.
Well it was a guy called Ryan Lordsearse.
And I started training with him.
And then he introduced me to.
Jimmy Orrform.
Who was like a family.
A family full of wrestlers.
Brett Orrform.
Jimmy Orrform.
Katie Orrform.
Tommy Orrform.
They're all champion wrestlers in the UK.
And they were from Bradford. So I started going over there.
Learning to wrestle off them.
But I was just learning like just freestyle side of things.
Like takedowns.
And like I didn't really learn any mat wrestling.
So then I went to a Y club in Manchester.
And there were all these Iranians there.
And I'm not kidding.
They just beat me up.
They absolutely battered me.
Absolutely battered me.
And then I met a guy called Ali Arish.
And he was like training at Wolfslayer.
He did a lot of training with Rampage Jax and Bissping.
And people like that.
But he was like starting off his MMA career.
Well he was doing an MMA career.
But he was like a wrestler from Iran.
And for some reason.
When I used to go wrestling he used to drag me to one side.
And I wanted to learn like pure wrestling.
And he used to drag me to one side.
He said you'll do grappling with me in MMA.
And I'm not kidding. He used to batter me.
In fact he was probably the first person I got concussion off.
Because I got him in like an headlock.
Or a guillotine.
And he picked me up and slammed me on concrete.
And it was like.
They were very much.
I had to earn his respect.
It was almost like he had an ego against me.
And he had to beat me.
And towards the end I started getting like doing really well against him.
And sometimes I beat him.
I used to submit him a lot with Jiu Jitsu.
But I started like pinning him and stuff like that.
And then what it was.
There was a seminar advertised online in 2010.
And it was.
I think it was Billy Robinson.
So I went to this Billy Robinson seminar.
And I started learning catch.
And he showed us some mat wrestling.
And I thought this is more up my street rather than freestyle wrestling.
Because there's submissions involved and things like that.
So my brother went up to him.
And he says where's the best place to learn catch wrestling.
And he says snake pit in Wigan.
Roy Wood.
So then I got a.
I got a documentary on it.
About.
Catch as catch can.
And Roy was on it.
And I tried to sort him out to find him.
But I couldn't find him because we were like no one.
Interneted are we.
Then about two years later in 2012.
The advertiser seminar.
Put a snake pit.
And I went.
And like in 2012 then.
That's when I started the catch wrestling journey with Roy.
And to be fair.
If I had a fan in.
Probably 10 years earlier.
I would have put UFC.
Because what he's taught me.
Just totally.
I've never seen anything like it.
Like mat wrestling and stuff like that.
Like I went to freestyle wrestling.
And I had a really good friend.
Who were like Greco Roman.
Will champion from Georgia.
And he showed me this.
But no one had ever showed me.
I almost call it the invisible shit.
It's like the things that you don't see.
That set up.
Set up the other things and it was mat wrestling.
And that was a missing link for me.
And that's what changed my game.
Changed the jujitsu game.
Changed my MMA game.
Changed my boxing game.
And it's been a godsend.
And if it weren't for Roy.
I would have never learned it.
So I owe a lot to Roy really.
And then obviously.
That's when I went on and started wrestling for Roy.
And won British and World title.
So it opened up a lot of doors for me.
And I really trained it.
What is it about
Cache wrestling.
That's different from what we normally
learn in jujitsu.
What is that kind of invisible shit?
It's like.
It's almost like you're going.
It's weird because like.
With Jits.
You're going against.
Obviously Cache.
It's got pins involved.
If you pin someone it's over.
Whereas like.
As Jits you can still work off your back.
And go for submissions.
But in Cache. If you're on your back.
They're going to punish you.
They're going to ride your shins.
And cross race you and make everything hurt.
So it's like you've got downward pressure on you.
So it's almost like once the gentle are.
Like Cache is the violent art.
So it's like.
It's almost like jujitsu.
Like the old says.
It's like it's horrible and ugly.
But it works.
And it's very economical.
Whereas Jiu Jitsu.
I love Jiu Jitsu. You've got to understand Jiu Jitsu.
And you've got to understand.
Why the guard is good.
And you've got to understand submissions in Jiu Jitsu.
But I think you've got to understand them both.
I think you've got to understand.
Because what I do with wrestlers.
If I get a pure wrestler. I use Jiu Jitsu against them.
And if I get a pure.
Like Jiu Jitsu guy.
I use wrestling against them.
Or catch against them.
So I use like different styles.
Against different styles to beat them.
And it's almost like tide option.
Kicking beats. Punching sometimes.
And punching and wrestling beats.
It's knowing how to use them against each other.
And I think that's what I've been good with.
I understand a lot of the arts.
I won't say I'm particularly great at wrestling.
Or Jiu Jitsu.
But I'm sitting to find a way.
Whether the conditioning saves me.
Or my strength saves me.
Or my wrestling saves me.
That's why I just train all these different elements.
But catch is like.
It's more for my body type.
I'm not a leggy person.
I'm 5 foot 9.
I'm built like DT.
So I need to be able.
My game is get on top.
And wear people out.
And realistically.
It's a combat.
It's an ultimate combat sport really.
Because when you think about it.
If you can't beat them.
You can knock them out with a slam.
Or you can punish them on the floor.
But you've still got to have some boxing ability.
As well.
For everyday life.
You don't like to understand when a punch is coming.
So I think you've got to train everything.
But if I could have one.
If I could have one tool in my book.
And I had to have a catch wrestling for me.
Just because.
I know I can shoot him. Pick someone up.
And walk off if need be.
Or I can submit him on floor.
And be on top and escape.
If it just hits up.
So yeah I think it's an ultimate game changer.
But.
At the same time you've got to have Jiu Jitsu as well.
When I think about all the different.
Combatives and you know.
Defensive tactics that are taught in law enforcement.
You know obviously.
The Jiu Jitsu side has elements.
And again just like we talked about.
You know you're not going to drop and do a leg lock.
On someone to try and cuff them.
Probably not understanding that.
But it seems to me that really it's about compliance.
And this is why I mean a well trained officer.
In my opinion should be able to use a choke.
Because there's nothing you know that makes you go along with what someone asks you.
That when you're.
When the world is closing in front of you.
But obviously I understand the danger of an untrained person.
Using it inappropriately.
But it seems when it comes to compliance.
A lot of the cranks that you see in catch.
And you know.
Would be good at persuading someone.
To allow their hands to be cuffed.
So what are your philosophies on.
All these different arts that you've learned.
When it comes to law enforcement.
Whether it's in the US or back home in the UK.
Well obviously we're working on.
That I've been like I've been in a lot of.
Situations where like both.
Jiu Jitsu.
It's all saved me.
You know like just through.
Like someone tried to stab me a few years ago.
And I've been like.
Like someone tried to stab me a few years ago.
And I was actually trying to help him.
So it saved me.
In that sense you know like.
So I think yeah.
It should be allowed to be used.
And I'm a true believer as well.
Like my theory on life.
Probably everyone thinks I'm a dickhead for saying this.
But I'd sooner do six.
Than be carried by six.
So at the end of the day.
I'd be willing.
Well not throw me life away.
I'm not saying I what.
I always think violence.
It's horrible, it's ugly and it's shit.
But I always think.
If someone endangers me with a life.
You've got to be.
You've got to make it ugly for them.
It don't look nice.
It don't look pretty.
But I've learnt over years.
It's not like you were saying about.
Taekwondo.
It's pretty and it looks really nice.
And stuff like that.
But I've learnt things.
I've got to be able to perform like a brick.
And beat someone up.
And I value my life now.
More than anything.
So I think like this.
I always said.
I got arrested years ago for fighting on doors.
Basically someone attacked me.
And I had to go to paration.
And she said.
You need to be more proactive.
Than reactive.
And I just thought.
I didn't say it to the woman.
But she said. Would you do it again?
And I said. Listen.
I said I'd sooner do six.
Than be carried by six.
And it didn't go down right.
I didn't know the law system.
It nearly got me sent down.
But what I was saying. I value my life.
More than the piece of shit that's trying to hurt me.
So.
I would do it again.
And I think you've got to be.
I think you've got to be more violent than the other person.
But I think as well.
It's knowing.
The type of person that you're up against.
It's like. In the village I live in.
You'll know.
Who local dickheads are.
Or local trouble causes.
Who psychopaths are.
And stuff like that.
So if I go to work in a different town.
So like.
I work in a village called Marmington.
At work.
I'll be walking up town. And if I see like a dodgy character.
Who looks dodgy.
I'll say to my mate. I'll say what's he like. Who's that.
And I'm trying to.
It sounds weird this. But I'm always like stroking the area out.
To find out who the local dickhead is.
So I know.
So I know whether I need to avoid him.
Or if it does go tits up.
I need to be able to.
Know what level to take it to.
If it's just like a general person.
Say like a student. Who's like an out of student.
I think I'll just give a slap.
Or scare him with words.
But then.
You're going to get absolute dickhead.
Who's willing to take it to that next level.
And glass you.
Then it's a scary level.
Like I've given an example.
Years ago.
I looked like geeky kids.
Like absolute geeks. With glasses like geeks.
Probably student type.
And.
One of them.
I'm not the best at arguing.
And he out argued me.
And then they look like dickheads.
And put all these people right.
And I thought I can't hit him.
Because he's an absolute geek.
I thought if I hit him he's going to look like a bully.
But the week after then.
He came in again.
And it went on for about three weeks.
So then I ended up giving him a slap.
And I looked at him.
I felt bad for doing it.
But I think it needed to be done.
Because then he was almost trying to bully me.
With his intelligence.
So then like years later.
There was this big kid on the door.
And when I went on the door.
He was like a big scary dude.
And I thought he basically offered me out.
And I thought if I don't fight him.
He's going to come back week from week.
And I'm just going to have to like.
I'm just going to look like an absolute geek.
For not fighting him.
So I never fight him. And I beat him up.
So like now.
I look at people.
I do weigh up the situation.
The after effect.
What it can cause as well.
If I haven't hit that big guy.
He's probably coming week after and bullying me.
But then I learned the hard way.
Because I didn't tell Geeta.
For doing what I've done.
I've done.
So if I didn't.
React to the geeky kids.
And I've probably been bullied by them.
Intellectually.
I weigh up the situations now.
I try and like almost do recondition.
I'm working on it.
People fascinate me.
Like if I go to a town and someone says.
Oh these are the village.
And a tough lad.
I say why is he hard.
Does he know boxing or does he know wrestling.
Or does he play rugby.
And I'm like. It sounds weird.
I'm almost in that fight or flight mode.
All the time.
It's an obsession really.
I don't know if it's autism or something.
Like an obsession where I have to know.
Who the hardest man in the village is.
Not to cause trouble.
But like if it ever comes on top.
Where I think right it's a boxer.
Or if he's a rugby player so I'll be fit and rough.
Or it's an absolute psychopath.
He hits someone with an hammer.
And that's what I'm like.
I'm always like weighing up the situations all the time.
And it's like I'm living in that fight or flight.
All the time 24 7.
But that's what keeps you alive in a sense.
If you were like survival of a thickest of world.
It's like.
You'd want to know if there were a tiger wouldn't you.
Absolutely.
Well it's funny even when you said about the kind of intellectual bullying.
Because you see that a lot now.
And I just cringe.
I feel so sorry for our police officers that put up with that shit.
People are there with their cell phones and they're yapping off.
And there's a certain point where yeah.
I think I'm sorry but you crossed that line.
And you deserve a slap at that point.
Yeah.
Violence is ugly. It's ugly.
That took me a bit of time to get over that.
And I think the doors did that.
Because I used to always be like really.
I still am kind hearted.
I'm a kind hearted person.
I almost feel like if I saw someone getting bullied.
I almost feel like I'm a superhero.
And I have to help them.
And I like.
It sounds horrible.
I like to bully the bully.
I don't like bullies because I know what it's like to be bullied.
So.
But I don't want to come across as an absolute dickhead.
You get what I mean.
But by the way I talk.
But I hate bullies.
I don't like seeing bullied bully people.
But at the same time.
It never did me any harm.
It hardened me mentally and physically I think.
Going back to the law enforcement side.
Just for a second.
So if you could create a kind of martial arts or defensive tactics program.
For the British police for example.
What would be some of the.
The
The moves is the wrong word.
What would be kind of be the training philosophy.
For them to.
Because I mean it's such a hard hard thing.
That you don't just.
You're not defending yourself against this person.
You have to restrain them and cuff them.
Which is another entire level.
So what would it look like if you could design that for.
For example the Met police.
For the combat sand bowl.
Combat sand bowl.
But then obviously with your weapons training as well.
Because that's massive now.
People don't attack with knives.
Machetes and stuff like that.
It's like guns.
So yeah I think.
Probably combat.
I think Russians have got it.
Combat sand bowls definitely.
Everything.
It's like you've got your punching.
Your kicking.
Your headbutting.
You know your limbs basically.
And obviously I think another.
It's like what.
Verbal jujitsu as I call it.
I watched the thing on that.
Being able to talk to people.
That's like a common sense thing.
But I don't think.
I didn't learn how to talk.
Because I was really shy.
So I started working.
Working in gyms.
You learn how to talk.
And defuse situations.
I think that's.
I've had it with police where they pulled me over.
And they spoke to me like shit.
When I've been driving back from DARS.
And they talk to you like shit.
And they're just little geeky kids that have been to university.
And I've got no life skills.
So I think.
Being in.
They'll probably get their life skills anyway.
Working in police.
Because they're probably going to upset people.
But I learned by DARS.
Watching other people.
How they spoke to people.
And when people crossed line.
A lot of people don't understand.
Body language.
Probably the most spoken thing in life.
But no one understands it.
They don't understand it.
They don't understand when they're getting.
When people are starting with.
Threatening them.
They'll turn away.
And that could be like a life threatening punch.
Where someone's going to hit you and stuff like that.
Rather than facing it head on and trying to talk it.
And defuse situations.
So I think.
If I were going to train police.
I'd teach them combat skills.
Definitely.
Obviously some sort of knife.
Weapon art.
Gun art.
Don't be shooting or guns really.
So you've got to learn that.
And then at the same time.
Communication skills.
How to talk.
How to defuse a situation.
That's the first line of defence.
If someone says what you're staring at.
You're going to defuse the situation straight away.
Whereas if like.
I'm staring at your girlfriend or you.
It's going to flare up straight away.
But if you say.
All your trainers or that.
Or your bottle of beer.
It looks unusual.
It learns how to defuse a situation.
So I think.
Realistically.
It's common sense.
Building better people.
You know what I mean.
Spain or somewhere like that.
You're scared to death at police aren't you.
You know they've all been to military school.
They've all like.
They've probably been taught how to fight.
And don't take any shit.
And they're not scared of hitting you with a weapon or CS guessing.
So I think.
This country we're soft aren't we.
Like definitely.
Well the other side of that conversation.
Is obviously.
I talk about this in America.
Everyone points at the police.
Or you know they're fat or whatever.
The kind of.
The opinion is that particular officer on that particular occasion.
But no one's saying.
Why are the streets so dangerous.
In America.
You look at the prohibition of drugs and all these other areas.
You know the poverty that's created a lot of the danger.
That our police now look like they're going to Fallujah.
Every time they step out.
Now we're seeing this increase in knife crime.
In the UK.
What are the issues that are causing it.
The streets of the UK to be more dangerous.
At the moment.
And if you were king for the day.
How can we reverse that.
How can we create this resilience.
In these children.
So they don't kind of romanticize about this gang culture.
I think it's music.
One of them isn't it.
Listening to shite.
Everything they talk about is money.
Blins, women, cars, guns, drugs.
Knives.
Chunky people.
They almost think prison is good.
And I think.
Obviously education.
I think education is shit.
As dark as it sounds.
I never got.
I don't like school.
I want the brightest.
I'm probably autistic as well.
But.
I never got taught.
Any life skills in school.
All my life skills I learned.
From martial arts.
And from my dad.
And my parents teaching me.
But then you.
You spend a lifetime learning from people.
But then as you get older.
You realize it's all wrong.
That you've been taught.
So you've got to reprogram yourself.
I think you learn through reading books.
Like good books.
And I suppose internet.
You learn from internet these days.
But you've got a lot of pros and cons to it.
Because you've studied all your gangster rap.
And stuff like that.
And even like computer games.
And films and stuff like that.
Changing people.
They're almost looking at criminals.
As like celebrities.
Probably criminals are more well known.
Than something like.
People that have changed worlds.
You know what I mean?
So I think education is massive.
You know like.
I think they should have like.
In education.
I think they should have.
Like life skills.
You know like teaching people how to survive off land.
Like now they do I think.
But like I don't know.
Like kids learn from being out.
You don't learn from.
All you're teaching them is that you're in a.
Like you go to school with us.
Like being in prison.
You're in a box.
You drive a box. You eat out of a box.
You sleep in a box. You watch a box.
You sit on a box. Instead of thinking outside the box.
And that's what I think.
Kids outside in sunlight.
Making them swim in rivers.
Stuff like.
I mean when I was a kid.
Like experiencing outdoors.
You learn more outdoors than what you would.
In doors. Looking at a projector or a board.
You can teach maths outside.
You can teach English outside.
It's like.
They don't even teach you how to make money.
When you think about it.
Get a job. Work for council.
Get a mortgage.
Get a car.
And then you die. Instead of saying right.
Go travel. That's how you're going to learn.
Through culture or.
Or what they call it.
Get them playing monopoly.
Learning how to make money. Buying a house. Selling a house.
The government.
Wants us to be below.
Path. So we can't achieve these things.
And like I think if I taught.
Like law or attraction.
I know it sounds like that.
Like whether people look at it as a positive belief.
Or whatever. Like law or attraction.
That's helped me like.
Believing that I can achieve stuff.
Or thinking about stuff. And a lot of stuff.
I like. Believed in.
And written down goals and stuff like that.
I've achieved. And that was just through reading a book.
Like law or attraction.
Whether it actually works. Metaphysics.
I don't know. But it's worked for me in my life.
You know what I mean. So.
I just think education is a big part.
And what from TV and shit like that.
And education.
Well you mentioned a book.
The first of my closing questions is normally.
Books to recommend. So you mentioned law or attraction.
Are there any other books that you have read.
That you love to talk about.
Or recommend to other people.
Yeah.
The art of war as well.
That's another good one.
But just that sort of general art of war and law or attraction.
Probably been my favorite two books.
But the art of war I use mainly.
Like for like combat situations.
But I've learnt a lot from that.
What about films and documentaries.
You mentioned the catch.
Catches, catch can.
Yeah.
I think.
Cullen Jacobs brought one out as well.
Either are. Catches, catch can. That was a good one.
Yeah.
Probably.
Catches, catch can. That was like.
Help me and stuff like that. I'm trying to think what else.
I've watched.
It could be anything. Any film that you've loved.
Probably.
The Smashing Machine.
Mark.
Probably one of the best documentaries I've seen.
And then obviously I like.
Obviously anything.
Really on Marmodar Lee.
I think he was a big influence on my life.
You know like.
I love everything about him.
Everything he did.
It wasn't just the champion at
Ring. The champion outside.
Ring Warner.
In Medma State and stuff like that.
I like about him. He made the stage.
He was just loved on
and off Ring.
Out of Ring as well.
Absolute master of psychological warfare too.
We're out of doubt.
He was like what I was talking about earlier.
You know like where
John Frazier over at Nassau and he like
almost lured you in with his character.
He couldn't hit his own grandma.
You know what I mean.
But he was like you're great.
You're great.
I think you've got to have
these characters in fighting
to bring it best out of
each other and stuff like that. Like Frazier.
Ali. Foreman. Ken Norton.
And people like that.
You don't get that in boxing now do you?
You know what I mean.
You don't get them golden eras like they do anymore.
Like what you did with Agla.
Things like that.
Now they're all dodging each other.
They're overpaid businessmen now aren't they?
The boxers. You know like they're not fighting
for like they're fighting for money
rather than glory.
I think there's only one like probably two
boxers are respecting this day and age now
and that's that. Yusik and
Lomachenko.
I like their value. So I think
for role models if you look at them two
they're brilliant in sport.
I think they're the greatest athletes there is
at the moment.
Because they're fighting for glory rather than
life.
And they're good people aren't they?
Good people when you're listening to them.
Yeah. I think that's really important.
I had Greg Jackson on the show a couple of years
ago from Albuquerque.
You know the trainer of some of the best MMA fighters.
And he
was talking about there was two types of
athletes in his gym. There were the fighters
and then there were the martial artists.
And I think that's who I've always resonated
with was that martial way. That person like
you said. It doesn't matter about the titles or
the purse. Obviously that counts.
But it's their entire lifestyle.
Yeah.
That's what I like. It's almost like
I like the
idea of living a sparring lifestyle and
like rolling lifestyle as I say.
And I like to keep
the tools sharp all the time. I'm not like
I'm not a trouble cause or anything like that.
But I like to be about
be putting situations
like whether it be a violent situation
a situation where
you feel scared
cause you grow don't you?
It's like in my job like
as that as it sounds I used to be scared
to death. Cause I like
teach like an old
women's class. It's got like
water over it. And I used
to be scared to death of old women.
Because they're horrible aren't they?
Not scared of saying anything to you and stuff like that.
And I used to have to
take this class. I still do it now.
And I have to stand in front of them
with 60s music on. It's almost like
I'm dancing for them. I feel like
a stripper honestly. It's horrible.
But
that class has like
made me so confident.
Cause I can stand in front of 50-60
people like old women who like
if you get out wrong, if your music's wrong
or you say anything wrong they're on
you. And it's made me so confident
that class because I'm putting myself
out basically I'm outside
the comfort zone. But now I've met
it. My comfort zone.
And that's what I always look for. It's like
I always remember
a martial artist called, do you
ever hear of Jeff Thompson?
Jeff Thompson? From Coventry.
Yeah, I actually had him on the show
and it was amazing because if you
actually know Jeff's early
life, he had this massive kind of
mental health journey. He talked about
all of that. And I was absolutely
gobsmacked because I wasn't thinking it was going to go there.
Well his
book were really good that I watched
my back. And I learnt a lot from that
and then I went on and bought his next book,
that Elephant and the Twig. And I liked the way
of his fear pyramid.
And that's what I've applied in life.
I've almost like sort of adapted
that fear pyramid and I use that
for my everyday life. And I try and
at least once a week
try and put myself
in a situation, not like a trouble
situation, a situation
where I feel uncomfortable and I make myself
do it.
And I try and do that once a month. I feel like
you grow from that. And that's probably
one of the books I would set to read.
Watch My Back or
Elephant and the Twig.
Because I think he's really good. And I
like the way he trained as well. Like years
ago, I can remember watching that
he did Animal Day, didn't he?
So Animal Day and
Free Sector Fight and The Fence.
And he's like
as deaf as it sounds
that I've learnt a lot from him
watching his videos. I can remember watching him on
VHSS. That's how long ago it
was. And I watched The Fence and Animal
Day and stuff like that. And I've always
applied his like
system to like my training
like when I spar sometimes
I'll get him sparring with like
not like full on headbutting
we'll have head guards with headbutts
and like ground and pound and socket
kick to the face and stuff like that.
So it's ingraining like
natural instincts into you.
Instincts are fighting into you straight away.
Because not everyone's born talented
either as well. I always think you
nurture as well. If you can nurture a
kid and teach like
I'm saying the good habits, whether they are good habits, socket
kicking to one's head but
like nurture it into
people. You can like nurture good things into people.
So I'm believing that.
I used to like the way he trained because he used to train
like the Animal Day.
And then when I was on the doors I used to use
friends. When I used to talk to people
and stuff like that. So I used
that a lot on the doors. And I
just think he's
in my life, if anything
stands out, psychology, he's helped
me loads him. It's probably like I say
probably I've met him, I think I met him
years ago. I went to a seminar at Huddersfield
and I like
star struck by him. I'm going back years
ago. I might have been about 19 years old.
There was a guy called Peter
Considine who he used to train with.
He was a really good guy.
So yeah, I've learned a lot from
them.
I highly
recommend his books, any of his books
really. He's knowledgeable, isn't he?
But he's almost like took his armour off now
hasn't he? He goes on about taking
his armour off.
He doesn't train as much and he's done
like spiritual,
philosophical route I suppose in a sense.
Which is not a bad thing really, is it?
No, well what was crazy is when
I had him on, because I was the same as you.
I was a young, you know
very meek kid. I didn't even have my growth spurt till
I was 18. So while we were going out
in the pubs, I was still tiny
and even when I grew up, I didn't grow out
and so on. I had this martial arts
but again I knew it was kind of tip-tappy.
It wasn't, you know, I wasn't certainly
dangerous by any means. And so
I got into that, you know, and like ask them a question
and then hit them in the face, you know, all these things
that Jeff would talk about. And it
came up in conversation and I was like, oh
I remember this guy. This is when I had the podcast
now. So I reached out to him and
I always, just like we did, you know, I always ask about early
life and you know, any struggles.
And he started talking about
being sexually abused by his martial arts
instructor and how that sent him into
the world of violence in the first place.
And then like you said, now he's so
you know, reflective and
spiritual
and philosophical.
And it became a completely different
conversation than I thought I was going to have.
But again, this is the martial way
like we talked about. You got the physical
side but then you've also got the battles in your
mind. Yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy. But
when you look at a lot of people who've done martial
arts or even like weightlifting
it's normally the people that's been
bullied or been small
or like that, aren't they?
Almost, some people it can turn into
absolute dickheads. Well then other people it
can turn into like really good people.
And I've even witnessed it
turning dickheads into
like good people. Like I
had a guy who walked, who I
never wanted to train. I'm not kidding.
He kept asking me to train him.
And I'd heard stories
about him and he was like
he used to sell drugs
or a dickhead always cracking people.
And this one day he came down
and I got talking to him
and I spotted drugs. I benefited
out. I started training
him and it changed him. He stopped selling
drugs. He wanted to take any more
and turn into a martial artist and I thought
don't worry, it changes lives though.
And that's
my thing with martial arts. That's why I like
teaching it because
even if it just helps someone
1%, whether it be like
I don't know, like people get
nervous. I always say for a
set of people to compete at least once
in their life at some form of martial
art.
I don't know, like whether you
go for a job interview and you're scared
to death at a job interview,
nothing's more scary than me, than
stepping into a boxing ring with
whether there's 200 people in there,
300 people, 10,000 people in there.
It's mentally challenging. It's same with
wrestling, stepping onto a wrestling mat.
Once you wrestle, there's that saying, once you
wrestle once, everything in life is easier.
And it puts into life
these little shitty things that we get worried
about, like a job interview, a
driving lesson, an exam, but then nothing.
You know, like
if you do something worse, you're trying to
basically knock me out in front
of people. It makes you realize, doesn't
it? So I think it's changed
my life a lot really.
And that's why I try and
put back into community and help others work.
Yeah, I think it was one of
the graces saying that if every, you know,
they taught martial arts, they taught jiu-jitsu in every school
that bullying would go down. And they weren't
saying that because everyone would be tough.
It was the opposite. A lot of these
kids that were bullying because they were scared
would be humbled and they'd realize
the teamwork and the respect that it takes
to work with a person. And you just
have a kinder school,
a kinder community.
Yeah, it does. But it's like now
when I look at things now, I like think
I weigh situations up.
I like think if I hit someone, they could fall down there
and like potentially
die. Makes you like realize
how easy it is to kill someone.
Whereas then if I think, well, if I
arms, I can take his back, choke him unconscious,
put him in a recovering position
and probably shave him from getting an absolute beating off
someone else. And it humbles them.
So like I just think, I think everyone
should learn it. But then
like we've been saying earlier,
that martial arts is
to me, it's not just a sport.
It's a way of life for me.
But I think, I think you've
got to experience more than one martial art.
You know, like
be humbled in them all, really. You know, like
and that's why I think
I think my next journey is going to be like
the weapon side of things.
You know, like, so I've never done that.
You know, like I know a lot
of it will probably translate well
to wrestling or boxing or Thai boxing.
But that's my next thing. That's my
next venture. I want to go on. I want to learn like
the knife arts or the stick arts.
Because there's going to come a time, isn't there, where someone's
going to pull a stick on you. And I've had it.
I've had people try and stab me
and pull stuff out on me and stuff like that.
So I've had some like
scary situations on the doors, really.
So that's scary.
So it makes you realize.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, that's what it's interesting. Even I've done
martial arts class
with Tim Kennedy, the UFC fighter.
He's a Green Beret as well. And there
was the shooting side and there was the combative
side. And you're doing a jiu-jitsu
and all of a sudden they throw a knife or a gun, obviously
a blue gun, not a real gun, in the mix.
And you're scrambling for it. It's a completely
different dynamic now because you're not
thinking about the person. You're
thinking about the limb that's holding that
thing that if they just point it at you
or stick it in you, it's completely
changing the fight then.
It changes dynamics.
It's like I'll get lads sparring in shed.
So like say if I get four lads,
I'll get one lad verse three.
So I'll make them learn to
because it's in closed room as well.
I make them spar. So not only
that, it learns about how to use other people
as shields.
It learns you don't have to make
different dynamics. You're moving about boxing
or rolling around on the floor. It makes you
realise about
your environment.
Like the wall behind you, that might stop you going to the floor
or how to escape to a door
or how to get out. And I think it just
adds different dynamics to it. And that's
why in my gym as definitely
sounds like
I alter surroundings.
I'll have a punch bag
up or I'll leave a mat
out or a set of boxing gloves
on the floor or something.
So when you're sparring then it makes you
wary of the situation behind
you. You can either use it
against you or it can be used against you.
So if someone's a better boxer than me,
I put them on the wall, take them down the wall and put them on the wall.
Or if there's like
a lift with some mats,
if I take them down onto that,
I see it as a corty, taking them down
over a corty. So it learns you to use
certain environmental
parts
against them or a punch bag that could be
a person pressed against them and stuff
like that. Or put them into a corner and
learn them how to fight in a corner. So I don't like a drill
called, I think boxers use it,
I think they call it the Mexican corner.
And basically they'll put you in a corner
and you'll get a fresh, it's almost like
shark tank sparring now, get a lad
that's a rate, you've got to stay in that corner
and I'm going to throw a fresh person
in at you every time and they're just sparring
in that corner and the next man goes in
but you're trapped in that corner. And it learns you how
to fight in like a trapped environment
with straight shots or boxing
or like it breaks
you down into games. But then when they've been there
it makes them realise, I think, oh I've been here
before, if it happens in real life, you think, well
I've been in this stress, pressure
tested environment before
for four minutes or five
minutes or six minutes and that's how you develop
in it. And that's what I try
and do with people
how to pressure test them in certain areas
if there's shit in one area, I'll put them in it
it's like I had a guy
who was boxing, unreal.
Give him a boxing ring, he just
boxed his head off, he couldn't get an earring, but put him in a small
space, corner him
and beat him up. And
I put it, I
took him from a boxing ring to my gym
and it says, it
learns him how to fight
and close and things like that. And it did
same with me really, because I kept
getting tucked down on the wall and stuff like that
and learned how to use wall against people and stuff
like that. So I think that, like
what Jeff Thompson did, like pressure testing in
certain areas and things like that
I think it's awesome. And like, you show it
weapons, changes dynamics
and I think that's the route, well
I know it's route I'm going to go down for some of
I like to rub a knife and start training with that
like grappling on floor with it
because I reckon
a lot of it can be self taught now
because the internet's that good now, you can go on
and just type in knife self-defense
or knife attacks and you can learn
it now, can't you? Like, well there's years ago
I used to have to sort it out, I used to have
to go to Manchester or Thailand or
like travel about
now, everything's click of the button, isn't it?
You can like, you can be taught
by some of the best people in the world
online, just by looking online
looking at the seminar. So I think
that's going to be my next thing, weapon
weapon, like
definitely. Absolutely. Well if you already
got the grappling as well, I mean for example
you know, the knife
or gun one, it's a lot of kimura attacks
really, you're trying to control that
so you've got the tools you've already got, you're just
changing the focus and the scramble
from the overall person
to seemingly that one limb now
is what you're really chasing.
Yeah, yeah
I don't know, I look forward
to it as well, so I'm probably going to get inspired
and be like some bingo dabbers
and say I'm the time to get stabbed
because I do know as well like
like there's a guy
who I train actually, who's coming over
to train, well he's coming over to train me, he's really good
with knives so I'm going to pick his brain
he used to train with like
he used to train with actual knives, he got stabbed
and he stopped doing it now, he trains with rubber knives
but he used to train all like
military and stuff like that
so I'm
I think I'm training back, he's coming up from London
for me to train him so we'll catch
so I'm going to pick his brain
about him, get some
ideas off him
I think you've got to learn a bit of everything
from this day and age, haven't you?
100%
Well you mentioned Geoff Thompson, is there
a person that you'd recommend to come on this
podcast as a guest to speak
to the first responders, military and
associated professions of the world?
I could name a few actually
I'm not sure
I think
Andy Cooper
who's like my old trainer
he's like
ex-Darman and stuff
like that, he was my old trainer
Neil Wayne
another one
UFC, big heavyweight
guy, he's like done with door
work and been in some sticky situations
and stuff like that, he's got some brilliant
stars in as well like
he's a big
he's like probably the most gifted
everywhere I've ever met, he's like
20 stone athlete
he looks like a powerlifter
and he's got
if you google Neil Old School Wayne
have a look at some of his fights
he fought Shane Cowan
for his first fight in the UFC
obviously he couldn't wrestle then
but now he can wrestle but
he's got dynamite in his hands
it's weird how he's gone
because he was like
he's going through that phase
we've just been on that with Jeff Thompson
where
he was really aggressive
almost like angry to the world
and now he's gone full circle
he's gone really spiritual
and you know like
teaching kids
BKB and stuff like that
and boxing and stuff like that
because he does a lot of way like
BKB guys
who do all the medical, boxing and stuff like that
so he's just opened the stable
up teaching that
but he's really knowledgeable with boxing
well at martial arts
but to look at him he looks like a silver like gorilla
but he's like
he is really skillful
he's got like really good football player
everything to shock you
him or Andy Cooper I think would be a great
talk, quite inspiring both of them
beautiful
but if you have a look at Andy Cooper
as well like
there will be some old fights with him
like when he was fighting on YouTube
he's had some actual wars
and Neil Wayne
but Neil Wayne has got dynamite in his hands
he's like one of my training partners
and like sparware and stuff like that
I'll teach him grapple
but it will be interesting to have on
Brilliant, I appreciate it
we'll have to try and make that work, thank you
yeah, I'll try and have them
Alright well the last question before I make sure everyone knows where to find you
because obviously you have a lot of
amazing videos on Instagram for example
what do you do to decompress?
we talked about sleep is not one of those things
so what do you do to decompress?
Errr
what I think, chill out
yeah
you know from a train
that's like chilling out
chilling out and er
I like walking and stuff, I like going out and walking
with my dog and stuff like that
that's probably like getting out in nature
I even like training at night
I spar outside and stuff like that
so like changing my environment
I like being outside
I suppose that's probably a big thing for me being outside
because most of the time I mean
I shed training people or in the gym
so when I'm actually outside
that like chills me out and stuff like that
Beautiful
well for people listening, I'm sure most people aren't going to be local
but if they wanted to actually
you know try and train with you in person
or more likely you know they're more remote
and just want to follow you online
where are the best places?
Errr probably
errr
Instagram which obviously it's Ian the Mongrel
Jones
on Instagram and then
Ian Jones on Facebook
as well, contact me at the local
just contact me on Facebook
Brilliant, well Ian I want to thank you so much
we've been chatting for the full two hours
we could talk a lot longer but it's
been an amazing conversation
and hearing you know your journey from
a young lad in a mining town to
where you are now as a multiple world champion
so I want to thank you so so much
for being so generous with your time today
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast
Thank you for having me
I was a pleasure