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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show Merchant Marine, Navy SEAL veteran and the Chief Executive Officer of Guardian

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Revival Alex Othmer.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Alex's early life, his unique

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journey into the SEAL teams, the healing power of plant medicine, canine therapy, music and

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so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five-star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Alex Othmer.

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Enjoy.

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Well Alex, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to Joe McCulloch from O2X for connecting us initially and secondly to

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welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thanks James, I really appreciate you having me on.

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So where on planet earth we finding you this afternoon?

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That's a great way to ask that question.

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I'm in New York.

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I live about an hour north of New York City and hometown I grew up in and built a house

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next to my parents, so my backyard.

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Fantastic.

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Well that perfect segue to the next question then.

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So let's start the very beginning of that timeline.

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So tell me exactly where you grew up and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,

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what your parents did, how many siblings?

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So I grew up in a small town, again about an hour north of New York City and kind of

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in a rural woodsy environment, grew up playing in the woods, shooting guns, really just like

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a country boy upbringing.

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My father was a New York City firefighter and my whole family was military first responders

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so I really grew up into my time in service naturally.

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My childhood was, you know, we were middle class and pretty easy going.

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I had a hard father but the good type of hard that put me to challenge and no major trauma

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or to least to my knowledge that I had growing up, just a fairly normal childhood, was an

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athlete, played sports my whole life and was a wild man.

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How long was your father a firefighter for?

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So he was a firefighter for like 23 years and he was also a Marine and was also in the

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Navy too so he was a veteran and then transitioned to the New York City Fire Department after

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that.

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With this mature mental health lens that you have post-service as well, when you look back,

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were there any elements of his service that you realize now were causing some issues?

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Absolutely.

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So he was a firefighter during 9-11 which had an obvious impact on him and my whole

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family and our community.

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He just by crazy stand, he was actually, he got injured about two weeks before 9-11 happened

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and the towers went down.

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He was on a boat on the Hudson River and he was trying to fix a boat engine and his leg

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got caught in the motor and ripped his whole knee up and he actually got life flighted

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off the boat to West Point for emergency service, or emergency surgery.

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So when 9-11 happened he was in crutches and he couldn't go down, he couldn't do anything

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so he was just had this tremendous survivor's guilt and the only thing he could do was volunteer

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to run all the funerals for all the firefighters and their families that were lost that day.

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So it probably hit him harder than it might have if he was down there that day or was

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actually able to get his hands dirty.

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So it's a really interesting dynamic and that really affected me and my family unit all

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through growing up which I'm sure we'll talk about but he was an alcoholic and suffered

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from severe PTSD and he didn't really know what it was at that time.

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This is the problem I think, if you were at the towers you'd be like, okay well you're

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struggling because you were there, you were on ground zero, you were digging with your

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hands, whatever it was.

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But that's 1% of all first responders, 1% of all military were in some Mogadishu fight

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for your life combat and everyone else was doing the daily grind.

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And I think this is the problem, it's the death by a thousand cuts conversation that

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we don't really have and just because your dad wasn't physically at the towers doesn't

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mean that the cumulative effect of his military service and then in the firefighter's uniform

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didn't compound and then obviously at the end that inability to say that survivor's

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guilt just kind of crushing load on top of everything.

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I mean you sound like a professional because you are James but that's exactly it.

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One way I look at it is it's a bit of a mirage because for two things, one you might have

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survivor's guilt and the second is you feel like you're not good enough or you didn't

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do your part so you might live the rest of your life trying to prove yourself or accommodate

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for those perceived shortcomings and I could see that throughout his life and how he struggled

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with that.

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That imposter syndrome is crazy and I had, I was just telling my son this the other day,

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one of my Delta friends said that he's never seen such imposter syndrome as inside the

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Delta team room.

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Some of the most elite war fighters on the planet so we all, all of us suffer from it

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and we wear this mask that we're okay and we look across and everyone else has got their

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mask on we're like well they're all fine what's wrong with me behind this mask and the reality

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is we all struggle with it.

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We all do, it's all imprinted in somewhere in our brain whether we recognize it or not.

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So going back to your childhood what about athletics and sports what were you playing

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and doing?

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Yeah so I played almost every sport under the sun but I rounded out with football and

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wrestling and I boxed on high school as well and then I carried those with me.

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I ran track as well and when I went to the Merchant Marine Academy which is a federal

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service academy out in Long Island and I played football there for four years and I ran track

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so I carried football with me but I really enjoyed wrestling the most.

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Wrestling is like one of the most gut-wrenching sports you could participate in.

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I don't know if you if you roll BJJ or if you do some type of combative sport but those

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have always been the hardest for me because it's just you out there on the mat by yourself.

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So that shaped most of my childhood intense sports, hot summer double sessions and triple

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session practices which kind of shaped my work ethic and my mindset moving on later

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into life.

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I've had this conversation a lot with people that did teen sports and individual sports

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and obviously the team element you know that carries over to the fire service or the Navy

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SEALs but there's nothing more humbling than being on the mat on your own.

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I fought I do taekwondo, excuse me I do jujitsu now but my first one was taekwondo that I

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did a lot and there's no excuses like you know if you leave it to the hands of the judges

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then you haven't done well enough you know what I mean.

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Your only real way of winning is to win convincingly and so I found it such an interesting thing

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dynamic because there's no better way to forge ownership than to put yourself in a sport

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where it's just you and someone else so you can't blame anyone except yourself.

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Yeah it's yes and I remember some of the most nerve-racking times of my life growing up

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being waiting to start the match you know whether it's a boxing match or a wrestling

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match and just seeing my opponent on the other side and that's like psychological warfare

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right there and having that exposure as a young kid like as a teenager as I slowly becoming

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a man I think is so important it prepares you for life in so many ways especially as

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a man like women and men you know are just so fundamentally different I believe and I

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think that I think especially for young men if they don't get that type of exposure then

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I see them having struggles throughout the rest of their life trying to find that or

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get that fulfillment of being exposed to that level of psychological pressure and stress

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and I'm just grateful that I had that opportunity and things like wrestling and other combative

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sports give you that taste.

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I grew up on a farm as well and that was a vet a horse vet and a small animal vet and

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so I grew up you know taking care of lambs at three in the morning and then getting chastised

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at school at nine in the morning they assumed I was watching television but it was it was

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that amazing element of suffering and this is in England so it's cold and wet and gloomy

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as well and then you look at myself included how we all collectively live in 2024 and so

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many of these discomforts have been curbed now what is your perspective of the kind of

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lack of suffering in 2024 no fault of anyone's just these creature comforts that we have

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on forging good firefighters and sailors for example.

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Yeah that's a great question I do have one question for you James before I jump into

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that is the living on the farm so do you have a lot of memories as like a young kid seeing

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like your father work on animals like the gore and the trauma of like animal veterinary

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care and like did that have an imprint on your mind.

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I always said that my childhood prepared me for a life as a firefighter we had the big

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dining room or kitchen table that everyone would sit around we'd had all kinds of people

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walk through the door literally from extended royalty to gypsies and homeless people and

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that's not a you know up down scale that's a horizontal scale in my mind but yeah I mean

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I would issue be operate on a horse and we'd stop and we'd have sandwiches you know staring

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at these cuts and then we'd you know wash our hands and then get back to it again and

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I obviously wasn't doing you know most of the surgical stuff he was but I was helping

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him and passing tools and so yeah when I look at the blood and gore element I did grow up

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around that.

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Super fascinating so sorry I digress to answer your question we are trending towards a sicker

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society.

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I think the nation at large especially the United States is sick mentally and physically

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on so many levels and I believe it's because that I believe it's because we have grown

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to be more and more comfortable and we're not growing and evolving as a species in order

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to grow and evolve you have to be uncomfortable and you have to be exposed to the elements

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to pressure to whatever stimuli in your environment and we're just not receiving that we're getting

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softer physically and mentally as a society and I think that the declining health trends

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we're seeing right now is symptomatic of that overarching societal trend.

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You know I think three quarters of the United States is considered clinically overweight

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and over a third is clinically obese one in five Americans suffer from some type of diagnosable

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mental illness.

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People are more sedentary than they've ever been roughly 90 percent of the US population

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spends most of their time indoors it's just crazy it's sick it's causing us all to be

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sick and it's a problem it's a huge problem that we have to address.

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I just saw a really interesting video I forget exactly I think she was a lecturer at Harvard

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I believe but she was talking about and obviously this is a certain group of people but how

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is it that we've got children that have the access to therapy and these conversations

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and they're not getting better and she said because it's the parents that need the counseling

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and I've always said the same thing you know people roll their eyes and they'll go kids

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today it's like well you fucking raise kids today my generation raised their generation

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so that means that we're doing something wrong and so it's okay for us to go hey clearly

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we're not doing it right but we have to put a stop on all the things that are doing exactly

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what you you talked about and when COVID happened I was like oh thank god we got a collective

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you know captive audience now we can finally make a dent on this but as I'm sure you saw

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everything that needed to happen people were told not to do and everything that was making

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things worse they were told to do in spades so there was no lesson learned and as we progress

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through people are getting fatter and sicker.

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Yeah it's so so true and I was thinking the same thing when COVID hit I was like to your

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point we have a captive audience and I think people might start paying attention I think

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some people did I think there was some good that came out of it and people had an opportunity

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to rebound but for some it just dug them deeper into a hole.

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Absolutely well what about the career aspirations obviously we're going to talk about the SEAL

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teams and beyond but when you were in the school age what were you dreaming of becoming?

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I always knew I wanted to be in the military but I didn't really know about being a SEAL

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the wars were kicking off and I was just eager to like go out and serve and then you know

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I think subconsciously seeking some type of revenge from the psychological effects that

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9-11 had on my family and my father so I was always eager to get out and go find bad guys

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and that's kind of what kicked off that aggression to go serve.

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What was your actual experience you had your dad he's you know served in so many different

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uniforms now he starts struggling like so many of our people do what did that look like

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through the sun's eyes?

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Yeah great question a lot of anger and resentment you know he like straight up just drank you

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know he just became it was a functioning alcoholic he was such a hard worker and he was a mason

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you know how most firefighters have a second job so he was a mason and I would work 12

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hour days in the summer with him laying brick and block and stone and he was just a hard

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worker he built our whole house but he would drink excessively and kind of drink away those

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negative thoughts and feelings and emotions and it was mostly reflected in anger he always

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cared about us as a family but you could tell he was he was struggling and what was most

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apparent for me once like I did recognize is when I got older that it was like a big

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problem was just like his habits and like how unhealthy he became the drinking led to

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just poor eating and the poor eating just led to just like a more weaker lifestyle he

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just was making the wrong decisions like obviously because alcohol prevents you from making the

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best decisions you can and it just started to deteriorate everything about him led to

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arguments and fights in the family things like that.

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Did you lose your dad?

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No he's still alive he's sober now he's five years sober so I left for college and

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you know like just real quick like going back like he would always tell he would always

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share share some stuff with the family when he came home like especially to me and my

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older brother he wouldn't really share this to my mom and sister but he would make comments

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like yeah I just got back from a you know a 24 and you know some guy got like ran over

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by a train and like half of his body was like 100 yards down the track and he was still

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talking to me and like you know as a kid I'm just like oh that's cool or like oh wow you

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know and I didn't really think much of it or he would make comments like yeah I just

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shoveled some guy with a flat shovel off the highway from getting a motorcycle accident

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right or or like you know I remember him saying like a minivan killed you know a whole family

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like just those types of things these like unbelievably traumatic events that the average

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person might only see a couple times in their life at most meanwhile you guys as firefighters

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see them on the daily basis and he would always bring those things up I just never recognized

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it and then when I got to college and I got older and I was coming home periodically during

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during like break I would see like the lawn wasn't mowed and like things just weren't

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taken care of and like he was losing his purpose in life because his kids were out of the house

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and he was getting older so he was just kind of running out of things to do and that's

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when I think it took a really bad turn so I came home from one of my deployments and

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my mom said it got really bad so I flew home and like went and got him to rehab and a couple

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times took him to rehab and just like my last couple years in the military I was like coming

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home and trying to get him in a better place and then finally like the fourth or fifth

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time he was sober and never looked back and you know just a success story but it took

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a lot of effort on like the whole family units part to get him the help he needed that's

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amazing to hear I mean really especially I think the number of times that you went to

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rehab I think this is a big misnomer as well it's like well you know why why aren't you

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there you went to rehab didn't it work and what I've heard is usually it's a number of

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times before people actually there's just something because it's again death by a thousand

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cuts I'm sure it's healing by a thousand cuts too you just don't walk in and 30 days later

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you're you're healed it's gonna be attempt after attempt and so when you have that you

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know perfect storm of all the healthy coping mechanisms and the penny finally drops through

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the insane fog of you know addiction that you first walk in that you can finally start

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healing so I think that's great to hear that it took a number of times I think a lot of

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people need to hear that and you're rewiring your entire brain you know he's been drinking

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all his life a lot of us have right alcohol is like so baked into our lifestyle and our

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culture like I'm so I've been sober for three years now and like I'm finally like just getting

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over some of those weird feelings when I go somewhere and I don't have a drink and all

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the social aspects surrounding it and the cultural aspects and like people like like

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giving you weird looks and like I don't care anymore but when I started it was hard you're

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changing everything about you when you stop drinking alcohol because it's how we've been

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raised you know I looked up to my dad and I drank and I mean God I started drinking

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when I was like 12 or 13 years old in the woods because I looked up to my dad and I

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looked up to his friends and my uncles and my grandfathers and they would drink and like

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it would be this manly thing to do to like go just crush a bunch of beers and like going

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into high school I was just like ass backwards because I thought that was like cool you know

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so instead of focusing on being a man I was focusing on trying to be the man which I thought

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was drinking alcohol and being a part you know like a party rock star just totally fucking

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wrong ass backwards it is I'm just about two months into a year with no no drink and I'm

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you know hoping that's then gonna lead to more but it was a guest I had on recently

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I'm like he talked about changing your relationship with alcohol and I've talked about this for

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many years it's the only real vice I had and it wasn't binge drinking but it was if I let

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it it would be you know two or three every single night and I'm disrupting my sleep every

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single night and I'm on here talking about how important sleep is but it's it's funny

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when you stop you realize every film every commercial every social interaction you know

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some of the best food that I sit down with my wife is in a winery it's really hard not

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to drink in a winery but you know but but that's what you have to do but the moment

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you shift that perspective which is really really hard to do when you first you know

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initiate this and you realize that you'll have exactly the same interactions with those

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people with a non-alcoholic drink than you will with an alcoholic drink all of a sudden

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for me the penny dropped and I was like oh and I've even enjoyed like the alcohol-free

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IPA's that they have now it's just enough to kind of that you know like the smoker they

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go do something with their hands but you realize that you don't need the alcohol and that that's

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a beautiful a beautiful awakening for me I'm two months in and already feeling a lot better

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wow wow that's great I mean hey keep keep going it's it's uh it's that's a lot when

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you your whole life have been part of you you know I don't know what the culture was

283
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like in England versus America I heard that like in America we just like we just are way

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too sloppy and we just go overboard like my wife's from Argentina and she's like when

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she came here she was like I don't know why you Americans all of a sudden just like shot

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shot shot shot she's like just have a drink and like that's all you need so it's that

287
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absolutely it's the the crazy backwards way that we hold back alcohol in America I think

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you know introducing it when you're younger obviously is still introducing it you know

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that's not a not a question but if you grew up in Europe you know I had wine with Sunday

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roast you know like or watered down glass you know when I was you know early like 11

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12 whatever it was and so it's not super taboo so when you start drinking like you're not

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going to see keg stands and beer pong all that stuff in England and that's the difference

293
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here they're like oh you can go join the military but you can't have a drink and then at 21

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they're like all right off to it and you just pulled this bow back so hard that when you

295
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let go it's you know it's it's I don't know it is it's a completely different culture

296
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and it's about getting shitfaced rather than the social interaction with a drink and that's

297
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I think the difference leave it leave it to us Americans right there's so many things

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we do well but I think yeah that that facade of you know yeah holding it back and some

299
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of these age limits but then we let people drive cars at 16 I think we got that backwards

300
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yeah it's yeah or you know yeah it's who knows but the the defining question that really

301
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set me for drinking was like I'm more reliable to the people I like love and truly matter

302
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to me when I don't drink alcohol and it that's very personal to me right because I just you

303
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know some people can just have one single drink right but I'm just more reliable and

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people around me that I love can count on me better and have the best version of me

305
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and that's the only way I can look at it so it made it easy for me to stop before it got

306
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bad beautiful I'm so glad to hear about you dad that's amazing and that puts hope in other

307
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people I mean that kind of career especially in FDNY which is a very busy you know fire

308
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department to have those struggles and now be five years sober he should be really bloody

309
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proud of himself thanks all right well then back to your journey so you you want to go

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into the military you had an unusual path though ultimately into the SEAL team so let's

311
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walk through where you first found yourself so I went to the Merchant Marine Academy

312
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that's a federal service academy like I was saying before and you know there's like the

313
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major service academies like West Point the Naval Academy the Air Force Academy and then

314
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you have like the Coast Guard Academy and then the Merchant Marine Academy is kind of

315
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like this hidden little gem and I'll share why in a second but it was built after World

316
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War or during World War II to to produce merchant ship officers to drive the ships that were

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going overseas to both the Pacific and the European theater during World War II to move

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you know bullets bullets and you know supplies whatever it may be and they created the Merchant

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Marine Academy so when you're there you you can go one of two ways you can be an engineer

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on a ship or you can be a like a ship's captain and learn navigation and nautical science

321
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and how to drive a ship and that's the direction that I went so during your time there you

322
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go to sea for a full year so you go on a bunch of different merchant ships and naval vessels

323
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out for a year and just learn what it's like being out at sea and then it culminates into

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your Coast Guard licensing at the end of your senior year and then you graduate with your

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unlimited tonnage Coast Guard license so you can essentially pilot any size vessel in the

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world you're commissioned as an officer into any branch of the service and you leave with

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your bachelor's degree so it's a really good deal and not a lot of people know about it

328
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and so I commissioned but I chose going into the Navy and I can I commissioned with a naval

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special warfare billet so I had to go through a couple screening and selection processes

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as a junior in college out in San Diego and then they tell you if you get a billet to

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go to Bud's which is the beginning of SEAL training and I got that and I graduated and

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like two weeks later drove cross-country to Coronado California to start the journey.

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When you look back now knowing how high the attrition rate is what was it physically and

334
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mentally that allowed you to progress through the selection process when so many rang the

335
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bell?

336
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I would say it's my purpose and like my reasoning for going you know I think that if you truly

337
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if you're going for the right reasons and you want to be something like a SEAL for the

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right reasons you have a much better shot than like going just because you want to prove

339
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yourself or you want to prove for somebody else or you know what I mean like some people

340
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would go because they just thought they liked the idea of being a SEAL but they didn't really

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realize how difficult it really was going to be and that it's really not that sexy when

342
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you're in it.

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It's pretty brutal and it's painfully exhausting and it's a grind and yeah it's an incredible

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experience but it's extremely hard and people I think just get focused on the like the sex

345
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appeal of it rather than the actual like hard work and what it truly means and those people

346
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would disappear very quickly from training.

347
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So I think it was just like I had a very important reason to go and I think that's what allowed

348
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me to just kind of push myself through all of it.

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I've never thought about this until just now but we're in the middle of a recruitment crisis

350
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and all the branches the military, first responder professions and one thing that I've said about

351
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the fire service because obviously that's the environment that I know is some agencies

352
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like where we can still hire we're still getting numbers and I said yeah but that's all well

353
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and good but you're getting the entire list now.

354
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You used to be able to choose the top 10 or 20 before and I think this is a key element.

355
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If it's very competitive you end up with men and women who have a burning desire to be

356
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a firefighter or a seal whatever the thing is.

357
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If you then lower standards continuously you lose those people and it's that burning why

358
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that is going to make you compassionate when you're exhausted and also it's going to be

359
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that one that's going to push you through that hallway looking for that kid when you're

360
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fucking terrified.

361
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Yes and that unfortunately without getting too political but like that ideology is plaguing

362
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so many different institutions across the world right now and I think people get confused

363
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between equal opportunity versus equal outcome and like you're never going to be able to

364
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defeat the hierarchy right.

365
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Some people or the bell curve however you want to say it some people are just going

366
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to be better fit for the job than others and diversity is very important but when you are

367
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in a high performance position or if you're a firefighter I don't care what color skin

368
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you're skin you have I don't care what religion you follow I don't care if you're a man or

369
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woman all I care about is that you can drag my big ass out of a burning building and that's

370
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what it's about.

371
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So line everybody up and whoever can consistently drag somebody out of a burning building and

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do it in a in a team environment and not lose their shit those are the people that we have

373
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to pick and it just the same concept applies everywhere else in the world and if we lose

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that lose touch with that especially as first responders in military we're in a big we're

375
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deteriorating our ourselves as you know we're just like lowering this it's it's a sad situation

376
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and I think to your point when you first brought this up like that's why we're seeing attrition

377
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in numbers and recruiters are having an issue bringing people in it's like people are now

378
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looking at the military I mean I'm saying this maybe this is a generalization but a

379
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,260
lot of people look at the military and it's not as prestige as they once thought it might

380
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:47,680
be you know that's they're getting a lot of like negative press because they're trying

381
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:54,000
all these weird things you know something smart is like you don't want to have a transvestite

382
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promote military and you don't want like you don't want those types of people being the

383
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,480
face of the military right and that's what they were trying to do and they saw a tremendous

384
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,120
backlash right it's just like don't do that right like you're recruiting for a performance

385
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,280
and you're recruiting to bring the right people in and they're just seem to be getting it

386
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:21,040
wrong I think the other the other issue is that people are seeing the support the rest

387
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,840
and recovery that is or is not there in these professions so for example you know you're

388
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,840
in the military and I hear this over and over again this is third hand because I'm not a

389
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,680
military member myself but the number of people that say you know then they got into the VA

390
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,960
them and then they got pills thrown at them and then they almost took their own life and

391
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then we have an amazing conversation about their thank God healing journey and what they're

392
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doing now and it's the same in my profession you know when I went in I went in blindly

393
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going I'm gonna go help people this is what I want to do totally unaware of what mandatory

394
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,880
overtime was and marriages and cancers and suicides and overdoses and all the things

395
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,000
and so now a young candidate looks at that and they get everything says 2024 when you

396
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,560
do your research everything pops up and so and then they look at the pay and they look

397
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,240
at you know the work week all these things and they're like I don't think I want to do

398
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,640
that it doesn't sound very good I want to serve I'll find a different way of serving

399
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,000
the beautiful thing is that all you have to do is fix those things like don't withdraw

400
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:24,520
from Afghanistan in a day while Marines get you know blown up to death you know so so

401
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,760
we lose Marines to explosions and we suddenly leave that's not telling everyone that served

402
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,880
everyone that lost limbs everyone that brought home traumatic memories and and brought home

403
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,520
their friends in caskets covered in flags that we're there to support you and we believe

404
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,520
in the mission so the we have the opportunity to fix all these things but like you said

405
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:49,800
shiny objects like you know the the PC elements that are front page on whatever newspaper

406
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,960
is not what it's about supporting men and women warfighters regardless of gender and

407
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,920
all the other things but people that are supposed to be there and if you give a selfless you

408
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,300
know service that we will take care of you that is how we fix recruiting but if you say

409
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:09,200
oh I need 20 percent of this color and this religion and this sexuality you're completely

410
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,280
missing the fucking point you will have people lining up around the door of all those different

411
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:22,280
you know backgrounds if you just show them that you actually give a shit yep yeah I 100

412
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:28,920
percent and I think it it doesn't do it doesn't do people minorities it doesn't do them a

413
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,400
service either because now we talked about imposter syndrome right now they might be

414
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,040
asking themselves like did I get here just because I am this color or I in this religion

415
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:46,360
or you know what I mean and like there's some like I believe that there's smart there's

416
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:52,920
smart ways to do it right like I would understand if you're if you're in a predominantly black

417
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,240
neighborhood right and you wanted to have more diversity in your police officers in

418
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:03,840
the neighborhood like that's a reasonable thing right like there's a reason behind that

419
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:10,720
like a performance-based technically a reason but you can't but at the same time you can't

420
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:15,000
jeopardize the performance right like you have to find the people that can first do

421
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,560
the job that can carry a weapon that can you know sprint a hundred meters to take down

422
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,800
a perpetrator whatever it is right or somebody the way the african-americans are going to

423
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,600
be a lot better than us white guys on that part let's be honest when it comes to sprinting

424
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:36,040
they're going to be kicking our ass right yep and yeah so I think we just need to do

425
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:42,320
a smarter job and it's a it's a very it's a turbulent world right now out there you

426
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:48,200
know so I don't I don't get much involved with it I just hope that we can hold hold

427
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,480
hold the standard high for our guardian communities and make sure that people don't fail to recognize

428
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,120
that at the end of the day there's a job to be done and we need to pick the best people

429
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,440
that can do that job and that's a good starting point to me the mentorship programs are the

430
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:09,920
answer to that there's clearly history of certain groups not being brought in or just

431
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,880
simply the barrier to entry you know like for example most of the fire departments in

432
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:19,080
America you've got to pay to go to fire school and EMT school and then you test well if you

433
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,080
haven't got right you know four or five thousand dollars that's a barrier to entry one of my

434
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,040
friends here started a mentorship program for firefighters and they go into the underserved

435
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,960
populations and they let them know and it's free training and then there's scholarships

436
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:39,680
that can be awarded for fire academy and then you get the people from these different backgrounds

437
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,760
and allow them to rise up and within that group that are going to be some like no you

438
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,500
would have been a terrible firefighter just you know I think accounting is the right thing

439
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:52,400
for you but you're going to find like you said the best candidates because it's not

440
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:58,380
about oh I need these people that look this way it's this group is not being represented

441
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:02,260
as well like you said there's some populations where speaking Spanish or being from certain

442
00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:08,200
backgrounds is absolutely going to be an asset so go into that community and find the best

443
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,760
candidates and give them the training so they can rise up to that bar you don't just go

444
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,640
in and scoop a bunch of them up and say you're all coming with me right of which some are

445
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:22,000
going to be rock stars and some are going to be problem children exactly yeah like

446
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,020
I am all for equal opportunity like I we need more organizations like that that can go into

447
00:37:27,020 --> 00:37:32,760
minority compute communities and underserved communities and give them a better opportunity

448
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,040
like I love that that's that's I would put put my money into that and I'm a firm believer

449
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,240
of that it's just there's only so far you can go once you know like to meet a standard

450
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:48,820
so I'm glad to hear that that there are organizations like that I think it's really important yeah

451
00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:53,120
well this is the irony is that for all these problems there are such easy solutions but

452
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:59,520
they're in the middle and no one wants to look in the middle these days yep all right

453
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:05,000
well then you mentioned about going through buds so talk to me about deployments I know

454
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,080
you didn't find yourself in the Middle East specifically so where on planet earth did

455
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:16,560
you find yourself serving yeah so I you know I have I've I've been to the Middle East

456
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:22,240
but my I didn't really experience combat in the Middle East my combat experiences were

457
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:29,240
in Africa and Somalia so that's where I really had the opportunity to like do seal

458
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:40,840
stuff you know I at the time you know I was probably it was probably 2016 2017 like the

459
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:46,680
war was dying down in the Middle East and there was this weird uptick of that terrorist

460
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,880
group called Al Shabab if you're familiar with them yeah and they were just the ones

461
00:38:51,880 --> 00:39:00,520
wreaking havoc on all the the resorts and stuff all in like East Africa and West Africa

462
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:09,960
and you know I that's what really my counterterrorism career was you know I don't have a crazy I

463
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,400
don't have this crazy history of sustained combat operations like a lot of guys do that

464
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:20,880
you know got in in the early 2000s and just rode rode the whole war for 20 years I'm not

465
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,480
saying I wish I had that because a lot of those guys are hurting real hard now are no

466
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:32,680
longer with us but you know I just timing wise I just never ended up deploying to a

467
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:41,040
combat zone in the Middle East it was just in Africa what was the the element what did

468
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,520
it look like so I know for example my wife's half Filipina and you know you look at the

469
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,880
Philippines they actually have a lot of you know extremism there a lot of violence when

470
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,000
it comes to the areas that you worked in obviously I think of the the mall shooting in Kenya

471
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,240
and the one I forget the one I asked the S guy that went in and helped mitigate that

472
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:02,600
with some of the guys he was teaching but um what were you seeing as far as the level

473
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,840
of extremism and and where was the root cause of that in that particular part of the continent

474
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:14,000
yeah so it was very different from like you know like at the same time my buddies that

475
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:19,480
I you know we're went through training right some of us some of us went to the East Coast

476
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,120
some of us went to the West Coast and my guys that went to the West Coast they would go

477
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,920
to Iraq and they were you know in the second taking a Mosul they were in cities and like

478
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,720
very urban environments and they would talk to me about like kind of the warfare that

479
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:39,040
was going on there very different than what we were seeing in East Africa it was like

480
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:46,880
open desert and small villages right very like rural areas probably what you would more

481
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:58,000
see in like Afghanistan and you know it was I would say your garden variety brutal terrorism

482
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:05,520
you know bombs children just like really cheap low blows to communities like we would you

483
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,000
know go from one village to the next and we would see like some of the atrocities that

484
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,520
they would commit you know they were just cutthroat they would at that time they were

485
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,920
using a lot of like IEDs and their tactics were pretty much like shoot shoot at you and

486
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:28,480
run away type thing and draw you in so I don't think it was like anything far off from what

487
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:35,080
you were seeing in the Middle East just more spread out there was like this big valley

488
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:41,640
called the Juba River Valley and we were part of like this Juba River offensive and we were

489
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:48,120
working with like some of the foreign nationals and we would take them out to target try to

490
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,840
have them fight for their own country and go out there and kind of move them up to a

491
00:41:53,840 --> 00:42:00,280
target and then let them go into the house and you know if the house gets hot then we

492
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,080
would figure out a way to help them if we can but at the same time we're not going to

493
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:10,920
have Americans die on African soil for another country even though there's like a grander

494
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,640
a grander play for the whole continent of Africa which is a whole other thing right

495
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:22,920
now but yeah like America very much didn't want to show that we were really getting involved

496
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:29,680
over there and like I think the camp next to me a couple I don't know maybe 100 miles

497
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,360
away at another outpost like in I was like out in this place called Kiss Mayo that was

498
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,240
like in the middle of nowhere and there was one other outpost that was nearby and then

499
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:49,520
our next closest was like Mogadishu a seal was killed and that like sparked a big up

500
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,400
uprising and they're like why are we doing stuff you know over in East Africa and people

501
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,440
are like wondering what are we doing over there so wasn't like the best press and I

502
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,880
think we've really toned things down kind of operating out of that area now.

503
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,560
What about root causes I know one thing I heard I saw on a documentary and it was talking

504
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,280
about the overfishing of Somalian seas and that causing more poverty because the fishermen

505
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,420
weren't able to make a living anymore in their own their own shores.

506
00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:25,040
What did you see as far as the contributing factors to allowing this kind of extremism

507
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,480
to grow in Somalia specifically?

508
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:39,840
Money and corruption I'd say just money and like the form of extremism like it's a combination

509
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:47,980
of a really strong ideology plus like just money hungry just being like a rotten human

510
00:43:47,980 --> 00:43:57,040
being at its core bringing out all the worst of human nature but I think mostly you know

511
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:04,960
religion plus power and money hungry and probably just fear of poverty just like riding the

512
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:11,600
wave of avoiding what probably generations and generations of their predecessors dealt

513
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:19,440
with which is like poverty you know like I don't want to say I feel bad for terrorists

514
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,900
but you know they there's a reason why they're a terrorist right and it's not because they

515
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,840
woke up one day and they're just like I want to kill it's like because they were raised

516
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,840
that way you know and no one no one likes to say that you ever you know Jordan Peterson

517
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:44,040
is yes he he wrote a book called Maps of Meaning and one of the one of his big pushes was like

518
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,840
if you were born if I was born in Nazi Germany I'm probably get harassed for this but if

519
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:55,780
I was born in Nazi Germany right like right at the start of World War II I would probably

520
00:44:55,780 --> 00:45:02,500
be you know in the SS or I probably would have jumped into right like who's like I can't

521
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:07,840
say for sure that I would have had this moral objection to joining an entire you know the

522
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,640
Third Reich like I can't say that I could only assume like maybe I would realize what

523
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:18,360
was going on but but most people at that time were just fed into this movement and this

524
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:25,160
ideology and they believed every bit of it so the idea is that if you were born in Nazi

525
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,220
Germany there's a chance you might be at a concentration camp doing horrific atrocious

526
00:45:29,220 --> 00:45:35,760
activities right and for you to say not like that's just a geek you know just making assumptions

527
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,560
yeah well I think that's why it's so important to talk about environment and talk about the

528
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:47,560
root cause of things you know as you mentioned 70 percent of the US is obese or overweight

529
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:53,400
and a third is obese which is terrifying because that's a significant you know level of being

530
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,440
overweight and you know there's a lot of that well if they just woke up at four and you

531
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,640
know took an ice bath and they went for a 10 mile run they could be slim like me bullshit

532
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,200
that's like yeah but also if they grew up in Manhattan and the only source of food was

533
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:13,680
the bodega and all the the freaking you know playing areas are kind of riddled with gangs

534
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,320
can I compare as an English farm boy that had an orchard the same with that kid in

535
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:23,120
in Brooklyn you know no I can't it's not fair so it's environment as well so but when you

536
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:28,320
actually take that into account or immigration from Mexico drug prohibition has caused a

537
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,120
lot of the issues so that's one of the root causes you know so if we're not having that

538
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:36,040
conversation then we're just building walls to keep the Mexicans out we're missing the

539
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,360
fucking point why all these people are fleeing their country so I think it's so important

540
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:47,400
to kind of reverse engineer some of these yes yes environment you said it best it's

541
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,400
such an important thing and again like I grew up I grew up as a you know middle class I

542
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:58,960
I had access to sports I had a strong family unit right and I I'm blessed in how I grew

543
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,000
up and it's not the case for others so always considering that environment and how do you

544
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:10,240
modify the environment modify the information environment is especially nowadays to give

545
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,680
people number one the benefit of the doubt and give them as many resources resources

546
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,560
as you can because a lot of it is people just don't know right if you're a if you're a you

547
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:26,560
know single mom with three kids and you work you know 50 60 hours a week and your kids

548
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,800
go to school and they come home and all you can do is grab fast food because you don't

549
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:36,480
have time to cook like like how do you how do you crack that you know education but at

550
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,440
the same time you can't there's no more time in the day for that mother to cook for her

551
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:46,480
kids and stuff so it's I just it's such a big problem I don't know how to I don't know

552
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:54,400
how to like address it but I think you can start by changing like you can start by changing

553
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:03,040
institutions you know and yeah it's it's a long road yeah well I think again it's you

554
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,800
know it's getting people educated of angry getting to understand first and if you look

555
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:13,280
at you know for example the origin story of drug prohibition it's on racism and job justification

556
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,520
harry anslinger that's how it all started and we've had a you know 90 plus year longitudinal

557
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,880
study of its effectiveness and it's a fucking disaster and now we've got you know streets

558
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:30,200
riddled with gangs and homelessness and overdoses and sex workers and a large part of that is

559
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,880
this ridiculous law they put in in the 30s so if we actually have the guts to address

560
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:42,040
that and then as we sit here now recording MDMA was just refused as a psychedelic therapy

561
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:49,280
by the FDA the same FDA that approved Oxycontin which caused the fucking opioid crisis this

562
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,000
is a problem if we just sit back and allow these people that work for us to negatively

563
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,920
impact our environment we are going to get fatter and sicker but if we get educated and

564
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:04,160
angry and push the fuck back we can actually turn it around that was a hard hit I don't

565
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:11,160
know how how you know what your stance or how much into the world of psychedelics you

566
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:17,400
are but I was really that was really disheartening yeah it was disgusting and again this whole

567
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,240
prohibition conversation I talk about this all the time I know so many people now I mean

568
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:27,720
I've obviously found myself immersed in the SEAL community from from a firefighter's perspective

569
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:32,200
so many of my SEAL friends it's psychedelics that save their lives a lot of my first responder

570
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:37,300
friends the same and so these men and women that serve within this country or serve to

571
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:41,860
protect it from overseas then go have to have to go to another country to get the therapy

572
00:49:41,860 --> 00:49:51,880
for it it makes no sense whatsoever no it's it's messed up I went down to Mexico you have

573
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:57,440
your vets yeah I had Marcus on the show oh you had Marcus on the show that's right yeah

574
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:05,800
so I I went down back in 2020 down to Mexico and and went through that program I met I

575
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:13,400
met Marcus in San Diego and you know the the organization was kind of I don't want to say

576
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:20,080
in its infant stages but it was still pretty small and then now it's grown so much and

577
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,680
they've done so much good work but that that changed the course of my life being introduced

578
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:30,800
to psychedelics in that professional setting that they offer and now I look on how many

579
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,480
people I've been able to help based on my experience it's it's more powerful than I

580
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:43,120
would argue any other medication and any other modality of healing to this day and if I were

581
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:50,160
to put all my all my put all my bets on something for actually being able to turn the tide of

582
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:56,760
this mental illness crisis we're dealing with it would be psychedelics period no offense

583
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,640
robots well I want to get to your transition story and then we'll talk about the downward

584
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,380
spiral and then and then getting yourself out again but just before we do when I talk

585
00:51:06,380 --> 00:51:10,820
to anyone who's been deployed and actually seen combat you've kind of answered one side

586
00:51:10,820 --> 00:51:16,180
like you said some of the atrocities that you saw but when it comes to our perspective

587
00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:22,520
through the TV it's either one of two perspectives to see the you know the kind of tactical kill

588
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,860
them all like God saw them out stacking bodies on one side or it's the they're all baby killers

589
00:51:26,860 --> 00:51:31,160
on the other and the middle are our men and women in uniform that are actually over there

590
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:35,440
you know they're the ones you should be asking you talked about the kind of you know justification

591
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,880
of why we were there in certain situations the other side the coin I like to ask as well

592
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:45,480
though is kindness and compassion people don't hear that on the news at all what our actual

593
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:50,000
men and women in military do whether it's in their role the weather is above and beyond

594
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,800
so when you think back to service what were moments of kindness and compassion you remember

595
00:51:53,800 --> 00:52:08,480
yeah so I I would say the the first like real dead body that like the first like real like

596
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:14,560
traumatic injury I've seen on somebody was a like a younger boy who was probably I don't

597
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:28,360
know 15 or 16 years old and he just started like he he was like in the militia and he

598
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,920
like both he got both his legs blown off he was he died but his he had both his legs blown

599
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:40,860
off and like part of his torso was gone and I remember I was next to a medic who was working

600
00:52:40,860 --> 00:52:44,560
on him we were I think we just hit him with some ketamine just to kind of let him ride

601
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:53,400
it out and there was one of his one of his buddies was next to him and was holding him

602
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,320
and I you know I don't know what they were saying but I don't know what they were saying

603
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:04,200
but it was so genuine and so pure and the his buddy was so like just pure and saying

604
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,720
he probably was saying something like I'm gonna tell your parents something or like

605
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:14,440
I'm gonna carry some information onto your family and he put like this level of comfort

606
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:21,720
in the kids eyes that you know I could just feel and see and it was like very saddening

607
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:30,320
and disheartening but at the same time you could tell that they they were they were fighting

608
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:37,440
for something that was deeply meaningful to them and like from a spiritual level he was

609
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,940
able to like kind of pass them off in the heaven type thing and I remember like very

610
00:53:41,940 --> 00:53:48,840
vividly that memory so I think there was just like I just had a whole lot another level

611
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:53,840
of compassion for people that are in war zones in like third world countries and like their

612
00:53:53,840 --> 00:54:03,420
fight is so much bigger than ours we as Americans I keep shitting on Americans but like we the

613
00:54:03,420 --> 00:54:08,880
smaller you define your world the bigger your problems seem and we like to define our small

614
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:15,480
our world very tiny day to day and oh I don't have Wi-Fi in the airplane or whatever maybe

615
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,840
it's raining out and I can't go out now and these people are dealing with life or death

616
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:25,160
situations and those are big problems to have right we deal with small problems mostly on

617
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:30,800
a daily basis so that that was probably like a very meaningful impactful way to just have

618
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:35,400
more compassion for people that are not here in the United States that are going through

619
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:41,800
a lot more than we are suck it up buttercup one of the things this is an absolute utopian

620
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,640
pipe dream but you know there's that term team America world police and one of the best

621
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:51,280
films ever made I think but you know that kind of idea that we're out policing the world

622
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:56,480
and I think that I love the fact that we have the potential for really doing good in the

623
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,360
world but it's not through policing and don't get me wrong there's times where we have to

624
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,200
send you know military members over there and you know if you got to do what we got

625
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:09,360
to do but imagine if we took the time to fix some of the issues in our own country though

626
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,360
good that we could do then outside of our own borders because we do have things we need

627
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,680
to fix I mean our children get murdered in the schools and you know the lifespan of the

628
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,640
70 percent that's overweight or obese is significantly shorter than it should be so these are very

629
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:28,360
very important issues to address but imagine then if we reversed you know drug prohibition

630
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,200
and we started taking some power away from the cartels and you know there's there's so

631
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:37,240
many good things that we could do that then through diplomacy we could actually start

632
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:41,100
positively affecting some of these other countries I mean Haiti is a perfect example yeah it's

633
00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:46,240
my neighbor here in Florida and the fact that there's a war zone across the water when it

634
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:51,180
could be the most affluent tourist destination and the Haitian people could be flourishing

635
00:55:51,180 --> 00:55:55,940
is an absolute travesty to me so I think if we actually they say you want to change the

636
00:55:55,940 --> 00:56:00,860
world start a home if we all look within our four walls made a difference and step outside

637
00:56:00,860 --> 00:56:05,600
our front door and then help our community collectively that would extend to the entire

638
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:14,140
world yes well said James you're a bit of a philosopher huh I had almost a thousand

639
00:56:14,140 --> 00:56:18,840
conversations it's made me it's made me think about a lot of stuff put it that way yeah

640
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:25,740
I can't I can't wrap my head around that stuff honestly it's so it's so complex like how

641
00:56:25,740 --> 00:56:31,800
do you like you know drugs and you know the fentanyl like all these different things like

642
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,420
I I don't know where to start like you look at the health you look at the health care

643
00:56:35,420 --> 00:56:42,300
system you look at poverty you look at prison systems you look at our political narrative

644
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:46,780
overseas and why we're there it's just so complex and everything's so connected that

645
00:56:46,780 --> 00:56:51,400
I don't know where to begin yeah well I think firstly you got to turn the pyramid upside

646
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,660
down remind the people that they're at the top that's where there you go but if we keep

647
00:56:55,660 --> 00:56:59,920
getting divided and told that you know the other really fucking awful leader is your

648
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:04,740
enemy and you not be being dissuaded from the fact that the awful leader that you hold

649
00:57:04,740 --> 00:57:09,400
as your Messiah is also terrible if we can debunk that myth and that you know no good

650
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,660
leaders are making it to that position in the first place that's how we start and if

651
00:57:13,660 --> 00:57:17,120
we allow ourselves to be divided and fight for people that should never have been in

652
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,400
that position in the first place then we're gonna we're gonna reap what we sow so we need

653
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:28,700
an awakening for us yep well said all right well then you mentioned obviously Iber Gaines

654
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:34,540
so let's kind of reverse engineer a lot of the people I've had on the show the transition

655
00:57:34,540 --> 00:57:39,760
is where people really start to struggle there's some that have a great transition but you've

656
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:46,640
gone from this tight-knit tribe this this really you know laser focus purpose you know

657
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:51,860
this identity as a seal or a firefighter and then one day your ID doesn't work you know

658
00:57:51,860 --> 00:57:55,900
the doors are closed behind you and you find yourself on the other side and I know for

659
00:57:55,900 --> 00:58:00,520
a lot of people that can be very jarring so what was your transition story and then talk

660
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:08,740
to me about the the slide downwards first yeah so you know you you you brought up a

661
00:58:08,740 --> 00:58:17,760
couple of the areas where we fall on our faces as military and really first responders after

662
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:25,500
transition and for me personally it was mostly identity crisis and like they're they're of

663
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:33,740
lack of mission and purpose in life and then two is like TBI traumatic brain injury stuff

664
00:58:33,740 --> 00:58:39,320
and like you know my whole life I played sports combat sports and like in the military I got

665
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:49,120
my bell rung so many times being around explosions and gunfire and I I like the I remember hitting

666
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:58,840
my head really hard once before I got out and anyway so that is what I believe caused

667
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:05,520
a lot of my like mental health issues so those two things the TBI stuff that just carried

668
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:11,020
through my whole life military career and then the transition out of being in like such

669
00:59:11,020 --> 00:59:16,360
a high-performing job and then leaving that environment and going into like the corporate

670
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,180
world it's like so foreign and so confusing because like everyone just cares about money

671
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:28,680
and like they'll stab you right in the back if it accomplishes their agenda so that was

672
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:36,720
like a big slap in the face for me and I always like to say that like I don't I truly don't

673
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:42,200
like the doctor tells me I have PTSD but like I truly do not believe that I have PTSD but

674
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:48,280
they say I do I really don't like I don't have like at least I don't think I probably

675
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,460
have like the what do they call it like hyper vigilance we all have that right like you

676
00:59:52,460 --> 00:59:56,280
have that like you're always on high alert but like so what like that's who I am as a

677
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:05,200
person but I don't like have like I don't have this like deep state of depression anxiety

678
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,080
necessarily that caused like my mental illness it's more so stuff that like is so deeply

679
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:17,320
rooted in my brain I think again from partly from TBI stuff and then just that loss of

680
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:24,200
identity and the rug being pulled from underneath me that really put me in that dark dark place

681
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:29,840
and I digress what I was saying before is just because you have trauma doesn't mean

682
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,200
that you are going to have mental illness trauma I think has been around for thousands

683
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:39,160
of years since the inception of mankind and I think it's how we handle trauma and all

684
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:45,040
the other things in the 21st century that exacerbate trauma like I believe we should

685
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:51,880
be able to go to war and and see dead bodies and kill people and lose friends and come

686
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:58,560
back and still be healthy I believe that's that should be a thing but society is so twisted

687
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:05,120
and and there's so many pitfalls that we fall into those pitfalls that society just creates

688
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:09,600
and then all of our shit that we carry with us just exacerbates all of it and we just

689
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:15,600
fall into this cascading cycle so that's what I believe happened to me most importantly

690
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:21,640
I can't speak for other people but I would I would throw a I would throw a highly educated

691
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:27,160
guess out there that that's a big cause of it and I started just like drinking excessively

692
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:37,120
like the substance abuse just abusing everything just abusing everything and that is what spun

693
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,280
me into a dark dark place.

694
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,120
When I spoke to Sebastian Junger he's been on the show a few times now and the one book

695
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:49,120
tribe one of the big things he talks about is story and obviously this is what this whole

696
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:56,040
podcast is about but when you look at older you know tribe tribal communities when the

697
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:00,960
warriors came home there would be a ceremony and they would tell what they did you know

698
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,840
and it would be celebrated and you know there'd be a way of kind of offloading it and there

699
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,920
would be I'm sure an appreciation from the village whether it was hunting whether it

700
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:13,760
was actually war and so you know you you have that kind of healing element and I think this

701
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:19,720
is so clearly underlined if you look at the Vietnam era veterans of which I've had several

702
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:25,000
on you know they were spat on or pissed on all kinds of stories I've heard and they weren't

703
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:30,320
received well and I believe if I'm not mistaken that a large percentage of our suicide you

704
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:36,800
know military members are Vietnam era veterans because they're coming out of whatever job

705
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,720
they flung themselves into to try and forget and now they're retiring and now we're seeing

706
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:46,320
a lot from that point too but that ability to tell the world and I love Sebastian's things

707
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:51,280
because the veterans town hall which you literally allow your veterans in your community tell

708
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:55,440
them what they did were they you know they pro-military were they anti-military whatever

709
01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:00,640
it is give them a voice but coming home and then being told to shut up you know that's

710
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,560
so detrimental in modern-day society.

711
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:14,440
Yes yes tribe what was it some Indian would you remember what it was what tribe it was

712
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,360
they talked about it a lot.

713
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,520
Iroquois yep yep yeah exactly I remember that that was such a good book I read that a while

714
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:29,480
ago but that's such a good book he really hit some some salient points in that yeah

715
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,680
yeah I think trauma is part of it's part of life.

716
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:37,800
100% well you talked about coming back and then drinking so where was the lowest point

717
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,960
that you found yourself so many people on here got to that suicide ideation did you

718
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:43,440
find yourself there?

719
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:51,400
Yep so two two situations that ring ring true to me one is one morning I well backtrack

720
01:03:51,400 --> 01:04:02,360
related to alcohol I went out this was like um this was St. Patty's day leading into covid

721
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:12,680
and I went out and I got so drunk blackout drunk and long story short I ended up I was

722
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:17,760
I ended up at like a deli at like four in the morning and there was like just to make

723
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,940
the story short there was some there was like a girl fight going on and like I was trying

724
01:04:21,940 --> 01:04:27,520
to you know the the protector I am I was trying to break it up and like like say you like

725
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:33,080
stop fighting girls and there was like a group of four or five guys there and more or less

726
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:40,040
they jumped me and one of them sucker punched me and I started fighting them and one of

727
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,880
them just like punted me booted me in the face when I was on the ground with one of

728
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:48,440
them and knocked me out cold into a pool of blood and my friend was in the car waiting

729
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,680
for me to like get a sandwich and like saw everyone run out because they thought I was

730
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:58,360
probably dead and I was laying there in a pool of my own blood you know it like I don't

731
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:05,400
know 29 30 years old and uh you know I woke up the next day and my jaw was all jacked

732
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:10,320
up and you know like my inside of my mouth was cut up and I was living at my parents

733
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,840
house because I moved home like I don't know a couple months before and I was building

734
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:19,800
a house next door to my parents and I remember like I came home and my mom looked at me and

735
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:25,600
she started crying and I was just like what am I doing with my life and that's when

736
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:30,760
I was just like really in a bad place and I was just like I you know I just was walking

737
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:38,200
around with just just just insane amount of anger and energy and um like a couple days

738
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:45,960
after that I um woke up one morning and I literally was like why am I even awake I like

739
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,200
was like I have no reason to be alive and I start and I had to you know I don't I don't

740
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,400
know if you have or other people on your show I'm sure had sure have it's like comparable

741
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:59,720
to like a panic attack but your thoughts start cycling down into a really dark place and

742
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:06,720
I had that moment and it scared the shit out of me because I was headed down this suicidal

743
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,980
ideating pathway and my thoughts started going down to well maybe I could just not be here

744
01:06:11,980 --> 01:06:17,840
anymore more or less and that's when I hit a really bad point and I think what what pulled

745
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:23,960
me out of it that morning was the fact that I still had a choice I don't know if that

746
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:28,600
sounds like a little I had a choice which to me is like the most powerful thing in the

747
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:33,280
whole world is like if you have choice you have free will to choose to do something whether

748
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:38,160
or not that's killing yourself or sucking it up and moving forward I had a choice and

749
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:43,140
there was something in me I don't know what it was you can call it God you could call

750
01:06:43,140 --> 01:06:49,840
it the universe but I had this like just jolt of energy of like no I have a choice here

751
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:55,240
and like like if I have a choice there is a choice and I I have one of two things I

752
01:06:55,240 --> 01:07:01,320
can I can I can go down that dark path or I can just like step up and move and that's

753
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:05,540
what I did and I just started moving and the first thing I did was I got a dog I drove

754
01:07:05,540 --> 01:07:10,000
out to Missouri and I picked up a dog because they've been a part of my life and I hadn't

755
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,440
have one when I was in the military because I couldn't take care of a dog I went and

756
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:19,780
picked up a dog and that just gave me an anchor and I held on to that I woke up I could feed

757
01:07:19,780 --> 01:07:26,920
the dog I trained the dog I walked the dog and that gave me that first bit of release

758
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:32,480
and like connecting me back to reality when I first started this podcast and I'm one of

759
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:36,360
my friends Dustin Hawkins is probably the first person that really like bore his soul

760
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:43,920
on the show and that was you know God seven years ago now I started seeing this commonality

761
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,920
come out because after a thousand interviews you know the kind of proverbial Venn diagram

762
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:53,040
is spitting out some pretty you know truth bombs if you like but one of the ones that

763
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,840
I never heard anyone really discussing when it comes to mental health and certainly not

764
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,960
on the posters and all that kind of thing was this feeling of burdensome almost everyone

765
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:07,640
that had been at that point there was such a miswiring through all the things childhood

766
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:11,440
trauma unaddressed childhood trauma the things that we see in uniform you know the organizational

767
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:16,520
betrayal the side effects of alcohol and psych meds and all the other things the perfect

768
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:24,160
storm that the brain was miswired the reality was distorted and you have these men and women

769
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:28,440
who are wearing a uniform that they swore they would die for a complete stranger and

770
01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:34,480
now there's this intrinsic belief this true belief that I am the cause for my family's

771
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:41,360
pain and if I just take myself out then which ironically makes suicide a very selfless kind

772
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:46,360
and compassionate act in that moment in their truth even though from a healthy mind looking

773
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:51,520
in it's obviously distorted completely did you have any of those voices start to creep

774
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,920
in when you were at that point?

775
01:08:54,920 --> 01:09:02,400
No because I was so no because I was a bachelor I was single I was like at my parents so like

776
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:07,680
nobody was counting on me so if I had a family then I think that would probably be some of

777
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:12,240
my thought if I was hurting people around me or I would have that burdensome feeling

778
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:20,360
and I appreciate you bringing light to what goes on in the mind of somebody that is suicidal

779
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:26,200
and like people are like oh that's selfish and you know they're getting the easy way

780
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:33,320
out it's like no their brain is so contorted that they think up is down and left is right

781
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:38,000
so I appreciate you bringing that up because you get a lot of that and I think it's just

782
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,880
the wrong way to look at it.

783
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:42,920
Yeah no it is and this is the problem and I'll give you a perfect example I think it

784
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:47,520
was about a year ago now in Florida we had a young couple they were both law enforcement

785
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:53,840
officers the boyfriend took his own life first and they had a not quite a newborn but an

786
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:58,360
infant child and then the girlfriend took her life I think it was a week later so from

787
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:03,320
the outside looking in you're like selfish you know all the things but then at that you

788
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:07,720
know when you kind of look at how distorted a mind can get through all of these you know

789
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:13,720
negative impacts again there must have been a truth that this kid is doomed if I keep

790
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:16,840
doing what I'm going to do so I'm going to take myself out of the picture.

791
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:21,360
So hard to understand especially now because that child has neither parent and this is

792
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:25,680
why we have to bring this up to the front I think that when that mind is miswired and

793
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:31,140
I say that you know broken compassionately that needs to be a big red flag to hold their

794
01:10:31,140 --> 01:10:37,240
hand and pull them out of that psychosis back into reality again because reality is obviously

795
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:41,000
you're going to leave all the pain with that person you leave behind but at that moment

796
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:45,200
they're the cause of the pain that suicide must be fucking terrifying for them and they

797
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:53,760
do it anyway yeah right yes well said James well said so let's talk about the beautiful

798
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:58,360
hope that is healing because as you talked about you know this trauma at war we've had

799
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:03,960
trauma since the beginning you know the dawn of time and the birth of man where I think

800
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:09,200
there's so much hope in this conversation is understanding that if you do the work the

801
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,960
other side of that is a better version of yourself another thing that we don't really

802
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:17,600
hear in the mental health conversation so what were the tools that you started finding

803
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,640
you mentioned a dog and I've got one right outside my office door here I couldn't agree

804
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:24,520
more with that all of a sudden you've got purpose there's another being that relies

805
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:30,520
on you getting outside and moving you mentioned as well Ibergain so walk me through your healing

806
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:40,080
journey and then what was that metamorphosis for you yeah so I got a dog and then I probably

807
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:44,960
had a month with month or two with the dog and it really again just anchored me down

808
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:51,000
and then I found out about vets and I well I had a buddy that actually went through and

809
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:56,000
I was talking to him he's like you should go here so he called up I think Marcus and

810
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:02,800
and Amber and got me a spot so I went down again this was during covid so I went down

811
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:10,000
to Mexico and you know really ripped the band-aid off with the ibogaine 5-me-o DMT experience

812
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:16,240
which was designed for that very reason for people that have hard heads and are stubborn

813
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:22,480
you know former special operators so that was you know short of the birth of my children

814
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:32,240
the most powerful meaningful experience of my life that rewired my brain and sat me back

815
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,960
down and put me in a much better place and then I started getting to work like really

816
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:44,780
getting to work spending a tremendous amount of time outside in nature and hiking and being

817
01:12:44,780 --> 01:12:52,440
outdoors and just getting myself out of the car and out of the office and also listening

818
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:57,640
to music I started playing a little bit of music but I never really were was able to

819
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:03,840
pick it up in a meaningful habitual way but listening to music and using music as as not

820
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:12,600
just an outlet but as a way to process my emotions was a really powerful thing and you

821
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:18,480
know what the feeling that you get turning on the radio and listening to like your favorite

822
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:23,800
song like that's an incredible dopamine rush like where other than like hard hard drugs

823
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:27,640
like where else can you get that feeling of like listening to like your favorite song

824
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:32,440
on the radio it's incredible it just shakes you to your core so clearly there's some real

825
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:38,360
value and magic with music that I think we need to do a better job studying but the music

826
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:45,240
the nature the dog and I would say the biggest one was connecting with other people that

827
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:51,160
were struggling similarly and just having that peer companionship with others and those

828
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:56,840
things all combined gave me you know there's things like exercise and diet that were important

829
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:03,760
as well but I got to work I worked hard there's no other way to put it I brought people into

830
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:09,480
my life I started changing my habits I started getting rid of the bad stuff you know I was

831
01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:15,680
I I'd work hard to get myself back in a better place there's no shortcut so many people that

832
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:20,200
have been through you know their their journey of suffering and then they come out the other

833
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:24,760
end also find themselves as a beacon of light and people that they thought were absolutely

834
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:29,760
fine are coming to them saying I'm not fine did you have that as you started kind of coming

835
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:35,440
out the other side yeah absolutely I mean there's one thing I'm good at is bringing

836
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:40,960
light to people that are in the dark that's who I am as a person and I've helped a lot

837
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:45,680
of people that were in very dark places some close friends I lost some friends to suicide

838
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:57,000
and people close to me yeah can't can't grab everybody but there is hope and there's light

839
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:01,720
and if you can just give somebody a little taste of it that's like the first step and

840
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:06,200
that's the first start and it could be something something as simple as like me sitting down

841
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,320
with you face to face in person putting my hand on your shoulder and saying it's going

842
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:16,200
to be okay there's there it's it's good out there I promise you like all this bad

843
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:21,440
stuff you're dealing with like yeah it's hard it's heavy I know I've been there but I promise

844
01:15:21,440 --> 01:15:26,960
you I promise you that there's actually something some really good stuff out there you just got

845
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:31,880
to find it and you got to work hard to find it and once you get there it's the most amazing

846
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:38,000
place in the world you know it takes that sometimes sometimes it's just some some people

847
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:43,880
have their own their own what do they call them yeah you know the spiritual experience

848
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:48,840
with or without psychedelics where they have this this moment this moment of clarity where

849
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,540
they're just like they see the light you know and they see that little glimmer of hope or

850
01:15:53,540 --> 01:15:57,580
that little clearing in the trees it's there and once you get there it's so good it's so

851
01:15:57,580 --> 01:16:04,600
good well I think this is where the real resilience conversation comes in my in my arena there

852
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:09,760
are some people friends of mine that put on you know resilience building exercises and

853
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:15,400
I'll do firefighter you know scenarios and I'll have you know music playing really loud

854
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,620
and strobes and all that stuff but and I think that they're there it's kind of like you know

855
01:16:19,620 --> 01:16:24,720
overcoming stress but I think the real resilience conversation is the shit that bothers you

856
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:29,880
now when you work through it that becomes you know a positive scar that becomes a badge

857
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:34,800
of honor it becomes strength I think and so you know when you've gone through this for

858
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:39,920
example and now you get to story tell about how you got the other end that's a superpower

859
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,440
it really is and you really are a better version of yourself so giving getting people inspired

860
01:16:45,440 --> 01:16:51,040
and excited to do the work because it's not and I'm so wet it's a lot I feel like some

861
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,760
of the conversations in the mental health space are like well I just live with my PTSD

862
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:00,240
you know I've got my dog and it becomes like an identity and you and you get stuck in that

863
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:05,320
point rather than yeah take your dog all the way through to when you're you know you don't

864
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:09,760
have to have the labels over anymore you're just out there enjoying being with your dog

865
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:14,960
but you you are a better version of yourself and I don't know if I can overstate that enough

866
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:19,560
if you can show someone that you 2.0 is waiting in the other side of the work that you've

867
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:23,600
got to do whatever that looks like that is going to drag people especially that are you

868
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:28,160
know mission driven people like first responders and military that's going to drive them through

869
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:31,960
but if it's just a message of well I live with then they'll be like well then what's

870
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:35,360
the point of living if I'm just going to be living waking up feeling the same fucking

871
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:42,520
way every morning but if you're now out there creating nonprofits and leading you know retreats

872
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,280
and doing all the things now all of a sudden that's exciting so I think that has to be

873
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,920
put forefront is that post-traumatic growth conversation

874
01:17:50,920 --> 01:18:01,760
yes yes yes the only way is up the only way is up and something is better than nothing

875
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,880
like if you're just sitting there and eating it or you find yourself just to your point

876
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:11,680
just just being in that mental health conversation where you're like well this is how it's going

877
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:18,200
to be I'm going to be miserable for the rest of my life now that's a victim mindset get

878
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:23,800
off the couch and start moving and doing stuff and I say that because I know how hard it

879
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:29,760
can be getting off the couch and I've been there but you got to move you can't stop and

880
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:36,120
you have to do something even if it's one little step at a time like it's if you stop

881
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:42,320
moving that's where it gets real bad when I sorry when I say stop moving I don't mean

882
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:48,120
I mean more like when you stop trying when you don't make that conscious choice to get

883
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:54,520
better that's when it gets bad absolutely well obviously to take those first few steps

884
01:18:54,520 --> 01:19:00,000
having people around you is a massive part so talk to me about what made you start Guardian

885
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:07,900
Revival and let's unpack the pillars of your organization yeah so once I got myself in

886
01:19:07,900 --> 01:19:15,400
a really good place just knowing my father and his experience and knowing other first

887
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:23,240
responders and how challenging it is for them my uncles my cousins I wanted to do something

888
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:31,480
and animals music nature and peer support were so powerful and they work so well for

889
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:40,880
me and they have such a sturdy history of research both anecdotally and clinically of

890
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:48,000
their success as healing modalities that I was like I have to scale this and we have

891
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:52,720
to do something we have to build programs and services that can help other people and

892
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:59,440
that's really the birth of Guardian Revival the organization that I run today we give

893
01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:08,880
people hope and help them heal through those elements and starting a nonprofit and running

894
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:13,520
a business is a whole thing in of itself it causes its own stresses but hey that's the

895
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:19,600
sacrifice you make right staying up at night and work in the late hours and not and worrying

896
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:24,180
about if money is going to come in and like you know at the end of the day I'm I'm sacrificing

897
01:20:24,180 --> 01:20:29,120
because I know how much these things can help other people so that's the world I live in

898
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:37,800
now I grind Guardian Revival to try to scale these things so other people can benefit

899
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:42,880
one of the kind of forgotten groups of first responder or military is our families you

900
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:48,200
know I think this is a you know an important part of the conversation because we are doing

901
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:51,960
the thing but they're either holding down the fort while we're doing the thing or we

902
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:56,640
come back home still carrying the thing and they have to deal with us so talk to me about

903
01:20:56,640 --> 01:21:03,480
the home front element yeah so our our newest program is called Guardian Home Front which

904
01:21:03,480 --> 01:21:09,880
is for the families of our guardians and this was a long time coming and to your point our

905
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:14,480
families are the direct recipients of the trauma that we experience day in and day out

906
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:19,240
and they're never at the forefront right military families are always moving because they're

907
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:24,520
you know military family member is the one that's getting pushed all around the country

908
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:30,520
and they're kind of left to the wayside so it goes both ways too if you have a family

909
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:35,240
that's healthy and supportive like you know this with your wife if your wife's good you're

910
01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:39,800
that much better you know like if she's in a bad place then it makes it harder for you

911
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:46,020
so like you have a sturdy family the unit the family unit is in harmony that Guardian

912
01:21:46,020 --> 01:21:53,400
is going to be much better off so they complement each other so what about the music element

913
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:57,520
when you talked about that I mean I've been just finished writing my second book and I

914
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:02,200
want to make it into a TV show which again lofty goals but you know if tiger can't get

915
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:08,000
made anything can get made so but you know but the music is so important when I'm writing

916
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,240
these chapters I'm like this would be what was playing in the background this would be

917
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:16,300
for this scene and it does it emotes you know I mean it adds so much to a you know a scene

918
01:22:16,300 --> 01:22:21,440
on film as well so talk to me about using music to help you know these first responders

919
01:22:21,440 --> 01:22:24,880
and military heal because that's not an area that I usually hear when it comes to these

920
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:32,320
non-profits right so at Guardian we we have three different pillars of that program one

921
01:22:32,320 --> 01:22:38,480
is jams so it's like a community-based music session once a week where veterans and first

922
01:22:38,480 --> 01:22:43,200
responders get together and just play music we also do retreats so there's are like multi-day

923
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:48,520
fully immersive music experiences and then we do something called tracks which is like

924
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:54,440
the professional music experience where we take a guardian and get them trained up on

925
01:22:54,440 --> 01:22:58,940
vocals and instrumentals and bring them into our studio and record them professionally

926
01:22:58,940 --> 01:23:05,800
and put them on our label on Spotify Apple Music and Amazon Music so those are like the

927
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:11,280
three ways that we leverage music to help heal others and like if we really want to

928
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:17,760
help a population of 20 50 million guardians however much it adds up to with military and

929
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:23,520
first responders you need something that's like very scalable and accessible and has

930
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:28,020
a low barrier to entry anybody can pick up a pair of headphones everyone has a phone

931
01:23:28,020 --> 01:23:31,840
and you can pick up a pair of headphones and listen to music and then maybe have a debrief

932
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:41,160
with somebody or talk about it or write about it right I mean we've played music walking

933
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:46,240
into battle right we've played music after battle to reconcile with the horrors of what

934
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:51,500
we saw like music has been around forever like there's in crazy without getting too

935
01:23:51,500 --> 01:24:03,720
much into the spirit world there's this crazy like synchronous vibrations with like geometric

936
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:09,520
shapes that we have in our body and the way our brain works based on like different chords

937
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:13,880
of music and different vibrations and and there's just so much connected with music

938
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:20,040
in the human body and I think we've just started to explore that what about Hawaii I see that

939
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:26,800
you mentioned that on the site quite a bit too Hawaii yes so we we stood up a hub we're

940
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,520
experimenting with expanding around the country and Hawaii was a great place to start because

941
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:37,600
it's literally the most isolated place in the United States and about like 10% of the

942
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:44,080
population is military active duty or veterans so we stood up a hub out there and started

943
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:49,840
providing programs and services out there as well to kind of as a testing ground for

944
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:54,960
expansion over the next couple years beautiful well I want to get to where people can find

945
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:59,240
that but before we do want to throw some closing questions at you so the first one I love to

946
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:04,240
ask is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend it can be related to

947
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:12,920
our conversation today or completely unrelated man search for meaning and atomic habits brilliant

948
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:17,840
I got man search for meaning sitting in front of me right now lots of good things about

949
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:26,160
atomic habits all right what about films and documentaries any of those that you love brave

950
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:35,880
heart last no heagans gladiator the patriot and interstellar just my favorite movies you

951
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:41,880
like movies about australians helping scotland and america yeah gilipoli right can't forget

952
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:52,040
about that one one of mel gipson's original ones yeah yes I like related to mental health

953
01:25:52,040 --> 01:26:02,200
or just in general anything yeah I um I mean I just grew up on like those war movies like

954
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:12,960
brave heart was like like my hero um so yeah like I don't get inspiration from movies so

955
01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:20,000
much as I would like uh movies are tricky right because they can inspire the hell out

956
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:25,440
of you and give you these crazy expect set these crazy expectations on who you should

957
01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:29,800
be and who you want to be like are they really there to truly inspire they're there just

958
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:37,840
to like stimulate um emotion and invoke you know some passion and something so I think

959
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:43,400
I would look at like the average of all the movies I've ever watched and the themes and

960
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:49,960
it's really like the hero's journey right like just struggling with something being

961
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:56,400
resilient and coming out on top and you know setting setting into the sunset with the things

962
01:26:56,400 --> 01:27:01,560
that value that you value the most which usually ends up with your family right at the end

963
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:06,920
of the day so all right well the next question is there a person that you recommend to come

964
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:12,240
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders military and associated professions

965
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:22,240
of the world yes Aaron Leonard he is my uh he he is a retired army lieutenant colonel

966
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:30,280
served you know for 35 years um he is our executive director of another summit the outdoor

967
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:36,900
adventure program um a wealth of knowledge is like the expert in outdoor adventure therapy

968
01:27:36,900 --> 01:27:43,240
for veterans and first responders and has a very unique way of looking at the world

969
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:48,440
and has been around the block for quite some time so I would probably recommend him he's

970
01:27:48,440 --> 01:27:52,840
a pretty interesting guy beautiful well if you're able to help me there's probably I'd

971
01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:58,980
love to get him on for sure and there's probably some more that I can I can drum up beautiful

972
01:27:58,980 --> 01:28:03,280
well speaking of which um Joe McCullough we talked about earlier what about o2x this is

973
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:08,960
a quick tangent because you work for them for a little bit yeah yep and I still do occasional

974
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:15,280
uh side work with them my mostly do leadership can uh leadership like work with them so I

975
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:21,320
used to run their some of the workshops and uh I love o2x um they're just they're on a

976
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:26,360
mission to do some real good stuff and they're growing at a tremendous rate have an excellent

977
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:33,080
mission and their people are top-notch um so I still do some work with them on occasion

978
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:38,800
I went to two of the four days um with the an o2x I think it was Fort Lauderdale they

979
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,480
were doing it with and Adam was actually down there so we talked he's been on the show as

980
01:28:42,480 --> 01:28:47,160
well and twice now um but yeah it was I was really impressed with what I saw I mean you

981
01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:52,640
obviously get you know exposed to not only the strength conditioning side but also nutrition

982
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:56,800
and mental health and understanding sleep and all these other elements too so I think

983
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:01,920
of the things that are out there they're definitely doing a lot of these things right they are

984
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:07,640
a powerhouse and they're on their way to do tremendous good they already are but but they

985
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:13,960
have a really really incredible mission and good people absolutely all right well then

986
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:18,680
the last question before we make sure where everyone can find you and the non-profit what

987
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:31,880
do you do to decompress what do I do to decompress I would say I go on walks walking I walk I

988
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:38,280
move and I walk that's what I do above all else if I'm having a hard time I'll just go

989
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:43,000
walk and it usually solves everything not solves everything but gets me into a better

990
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:48,280
place to solve my problems going back to when we're talking about COVID this is the irony

991
01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:53,160
is that you know when people needed it the most the parks the gyms the beaches were all

992
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:58,000
closed you know community was kept from people and these are the very answers I get over

993
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:03,320
and over again time outside time in my family time with my friends you know movement I mean

994
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:08,560
all the things that you know we were told not to do in 2020 so you know I guess they

995
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:12,560
say with a bad leader you know you learn what not to do I think it's the same thing if you

996
01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:16,760
look at how that was handled do the polar opposite will fix the mental and physical

997
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:23,720
health crisis right right yep well said all right well then for people listening where

998
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:29,880
can they find Guardian Revival and then where can they find you online yeah so I don't have

999
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:37,560
I have a LinkedIn I don't have a like an Instagram but guardianrevival.org is our website and

1000
01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:42,160
Instagram our handle is at guardian revival so you'll be able to pull us up or you can

1001
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:48,080
Google us it's pretty easy to find us on Google now and then keep in mind we have our one

1002
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:53,800
mile challenge coming up which is starting in September which is suicide awareness and

1003
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:58,940
prevention month so you'll see that placard all over our website as well so if you want

1004
01:30:58,940 --> 01:31:06,200
to get involved and join a really awesome 30 day challenge you should check it out so

1005
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:12,960
what does that involve it's you walk one mile a day for 30 days and it's $50 to sign up

1006
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:18,800
you get a participant completion kit at the end of the month with a shirt bracelet stickers

1007
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:24,120
magnets things like that and the idea is that you're raising awareness on mental health

1008
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:28,300
and suicide prevention and you're actually getting the opportunity to do something consistently

1009
01:31:28,300 --> 01:31:33,900
for 30 days to start your wellness journey or to refresh it for those that have been

1010
01:31:33,900 --> 01:31:39,560
on it for a long time beautiful well Alex I want to say thank you so much it's been

1011
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:43,920
such an amazing conversation I mean we've been all over the place and from your father's

1012
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:50,760
own service and then struggles and his sobriety to you know not only your service and sobriety

1013
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,600
but also the you know the nonprofit that bloomed out of that so I want to thank you so so much

1014
01:31:55,600 --> 01:32:00,680
for being so generous with your time and coming on behind the shield podcast today thank you

1015
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:11,800
so much I appreciate your time James