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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show law enforcement officer turned mental health therapist Don Bradley.

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So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Don's journey into law enforcement,

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some of his career calls, his own powerful mental health story, his transition out, becoming

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part of the proactive solution as a mental health therapist, the first responder marriage

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and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories.

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So I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you Don Bradley.

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Enjoy.

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Well Don, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you for having me.

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I appreciate it.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I'm currently sitting in a small town called Discovery Bay, California, which is East Bay

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of Northern California, the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area.

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Well, I would have to start at the very beginning.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Well, so I was born in Oregon, Salem, Oregon, and then I was born a twin.

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So for about four minutes, my mom got to think, everything's going to be okay.

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And then this thing came out of there and later lived for the next five years.

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We had one, two, three, four, five, five kids in the house at the time.

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Parents got divorced.

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My mom was a stay at home mom.

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My dad worked for a silver, I believe it was Silver Stream back in the Silver Stream RVs

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back those really silver ones.

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Shiny ones.

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Yeah.

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And then about five years old, we were taking a surprise vacation that was apparently only

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surprised my dad.

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We ended up moving out to Oklahoma, the buckle of the Bible belt, and come to find out that

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that divorce thing had been sort of steaming for quite some time.

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Mom was a single mom that really struggled.

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We were as poor as poor could be starting out, then stayed in Oklahoma for the majority

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all the way until college.

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He's getting sort of steeped in that emotions or weakness, men don't cry type of mentality.

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And so, but for the most part, didn't even realize how poor I was until we finally kind

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of got out of there and got a little perspective on it.

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But had very little contact with my dad because my mom hated him so much.

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Ultimately the relationship with the dad was strained for the longest time.

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My mom was my best friend and then unfortunately she passed about 20 years ago and I got to

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sit front row seat to that.

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Well, firstly, I'm sorry about your mom.

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It was just one of those things where that was probably one of the main things that sort

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of spurred me to kind of do this sort of inside out process because I had such a hard time

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understanding why I had to be the one that was there.

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So resented everybody else that wasn't and my sister and my stepfather eventually came

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in and was and unfortunately it was in the bedroom I grew up in high school.

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So it was very, it was like drilled way deep down.

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So fortunately, you got to go way deep down to unscrew that.

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Well, before we even get to there, this is an aha moment that I had after several interviews

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by this point, probably in the first year.

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But Jake Clark and some other people really open my eyes to the impact of our early life

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on our own mental health when we put the uniform on.

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And as I say a lot recently, if you are able to offload that or process some of those struggles

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when you're young, then you're extremely fortunate and you have that kind of more resilience

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going in.

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But I think a lot of people, it's buried down.

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There's a Mexican proverb that says, they tried to bury us.

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They didn't know that we were seeds.

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And I love that.

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So forcing that down when we were little.

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So when you look back now, you've talked about divorce, obviously later on you talk about

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losing your mother.

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But through a young child's eyes, that little boy inside, what were some of the kind of

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the negative impacts of that?

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Even though, as people always say, the parents did the best of what they had.

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What would be some of the kind of traumas you think through your eyes back then?

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Well, not having a lot of the normal just day to day life mentorship that you need to

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sort of live life, right?

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How to deal with things emotionally.

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When the people who are raising you don't have the emotional tools for themselves and

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they can't pass it on to you, right?

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And so trying to figure out how to deal with things are done from the outside in, right?

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You look at other people and see what you think is going to be there.

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You look at them and sort of judge based on your broken system, how they're, that they're

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doing it right based on what you see.

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And if your meter's broken, then you're going to just do it based, because it's like, well,

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they look okay, so I'm going to do that.

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And it's sort of, it doesn't necessarily dig into that inside out process that you end

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up having to do.

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What about sports and exercise?

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What were you doing as a kid through the school ages?

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That was well, so in, in, in Oklahoma football is a big deal, right?

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And so football, you did football, you did sports were the way that you sort of, you

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know, that was, it was a status and it was a, and you didn't realize that it was in fact

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an outlet, but it was definitely a status, right?

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If you played football, that's what everybody did.

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So you were supposed to do it, right?

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Excuse me.

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And so I did obviously football, played football.

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I did powerlifting and, and different things like that, but I was, I was more of the individual,

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I like to be more of the individual sports as opposed to the group stuff.

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What about career aspirations?

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What were you dreaming of becoming through school age?

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Was it law enforcement or was there something else first?

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It wasn't.

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You know, what's, what's funny is I found out pretty early that I was a old soul, which

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basically meant that I knew how to talk to adults or I feel like I was more, more aligned

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with adult, with an adult mentality.

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And what I realized pretty early is, you know, I think, I think it was, in fact, I can vaguely

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remember a time when somebody told me, he's like, you should be a psychologist.

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Cause I, cause I was a really good listener for the most part.

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And what I gleaned from that with no other sort of guidance in that way was that I just

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wanted to, I just wanted to help you.

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Right.

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I just wanted to help people.

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That's, that was, it was a plain and simple, very Rube like mentality.

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And so I didn't really necessarily, it wasn't like there was a history of law enforcement

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or there was a hit or any particular influence that said, you should do this.

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It was just sort of like, cause there wasn't even that guidance.

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And so not having, I mean, I had a stepfather who was a fantastic man, but it wasn't like

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he was stepping in there and go, here's what you should do.

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And you should do this.

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He, I mean, I got the impression that he was sort of kind of staying back and not necessarily

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want, he didn't, he didn't, he helped us.

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He supported us obviously financially, but he had had kids with a previous marriage and

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it felt like he was just kind of staying back to make sure he didn't, you know, like you

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try to be overbearing or anything like that.

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Like I said, really fantastic guy, but it wasn't like he had this, this agenda to go

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here's, I'm going to help you develop in life and become this person.

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So we were kind of freelancing it, looking around going who's successful, what do we

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do?

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And the only reason that we even got out or at least for me, the only reason that I got

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out of that particular area was because of the divorce and how my dad lived on the West

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coast.

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And so we'd get that exposure.

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Cause a lot of the people that, that I knew that were, that grew up in that area stayed

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in that area, which I didn't necessarily understand because I realized that the world was a much

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bigger place because of the exposure that I had.

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And so I just knew that I wanted to, I wanted more, but I didn't know exactly what I wanted.

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A lot of people that have challenges when they're younger, especially if a parent is

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not there either physically or at least, you know, mentally, depending on the dynamic is

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more often than not, if they find themselves ultimately on a good path, there were some

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mentors.

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It sounds like you said your stepdad was a good person.

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When you look back now, were there other, you know, men or women through this journey

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that also helped kind of steer you onto the right path?

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Well, there were some, some influential teachers that were, that were involved.

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My one of my science teacher, some of my coaches and things like that, they, they weren't,

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they were just positive influences, not so much people that basically said, go this direction

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or go this direction or find out who you are or anything like that.

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They just weren't, it's, there's, you know, there's a positive influence and then there's

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a not negative influence, meaning somebody that was there didn't necessarily weren't

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there to sort of negatively impact you.

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There were, there's, there are positive people who wanted to make sure that they sort of

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did right by it, but it wasn't like they said, here's the path you take, step one, step two,

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step three.

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It was, you know, and so once I, once I got out of high school, I did, I did pretty well

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in the school.

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It was there, but they didn't necessarily prepare me for what it was going to be like

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to be in college, you know, like what, you know, time management, financial management,

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stuff like that.

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And so getting into that was like, there was, the world became a much bigger place when

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I realized that I was the one that had to grab ahold of the steering wheel.

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So,

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So what did that look like then?

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You graduate high school, you know, what was that path ultimately into law enforcement?

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Well, so I graduated in a class of 48 people, right?

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And so not a, not a massive amount of folks.

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And at the top of that, I think I graduated third in the class, which is, which was great.

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It just, it made me feel smart, but I wasn't, when I realized is when I finally got out

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there that I wasn't as smart as I thought I was.

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And so getting into college, I struggled, I struggled quite a bit.

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And it wasn't, and it was because I didn't know how about time management and, and knowing

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when to study and didn't have somebody on there saying, you got to study this.

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And in high school, I didn't really have to study, it was really super easy up to that

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point.

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And so when I finally got to the point where they demanded more of me, I was like, oh no,

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what do I do now?

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And not really, and it wasn't even like somebody was there to say, you should get a tutor and

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you should do this.

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And it was, it was, you know, I struggled all the way through college and had, that's

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various events that sort of affected the direction I was going, some injuries and stuff like

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that that were, but definitely sent me off in a different direction.

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What was the initial direction that you were trying to get to?

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Well, I, my initial direction was to graduate with a degree in psychology and, and, but

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the thing is, I didn't know what I was going to do with it afterwards.

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All I knew is I, in fact, I remember the one, there was one class towards the end where

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I was like, where I thought to myself, I don't want to sit and listen to people's problems

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all day.

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That sucks.

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I wanted to actually get in the action, right?

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I wanted to, that when I, when I finally started to put it together, it was, I wanted to help

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people and I didn't want to die in a cubicle.

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And so, and so that was very vague.

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There was a lot of different open ended kind of searching that went on in that way.

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And again, like I said, it wasn't from the inside out.

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It was just sort of like who's being successful and how can I, and look at them as the template

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and go, go in that direction based on what I see rather than what I know.

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Do you want to talk to me about law enforcement being that direction that you were pulled

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towards?

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Well, you know, when I, when I, when I finally came out to California, it was after, after

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this, I was, I really didn't have a direction.

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I was kind of struggling because I just, I needed a job.

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I needed to be able to make money, had no idea what I was doing.

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And then I had that epiphany of sort of going, well, I want to help people and I want to

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do that.

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And I want to, and I want to, don't want to die in a cubicle.

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So at first I wanted to be a firefighter, but I didn't, I, there was too many, too many

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people trying to do that.

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And I don't know if people trying to do law enforcement.

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So I thought law enforcement sounds good.

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Let's do that.

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It was very seat of my pants type of, of way, you know, direction.

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And I kind of went in that direction because I, I just wanted, like I said, I wanted to

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actually be able to help.

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I wanted to be the hero.

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What would kind of, what we all kind of come from.

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I want to be that hero that, you know, ran into the building and save folks.

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It's funny because we're in the middle of a recruitment crisis now.

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And it's, it's something I think people have almost forgotten that I have only been on

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12.

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I would have been on 20 years that I stayed in uniform.

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So it's only 20 years ago that I first joined and it was so competitive back then.

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If you go back even further, you know, it was even worse for a while.

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And now you look at today, you know, and this is what's sad is there should be that same

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demand.

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The job is the same.

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It's not the actual profession itself, but the way that some of the working environments

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and some of the lack of support of devolved for our first responders.

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Now, you know, the recruitment crisis literally illustrates, you know, the lack of demand

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because people can see it for what it is.

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And it's, it's an incredible calling, but there are some things that need to be fixed

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without question.

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One of the main things that I see in a lot of the first responder clients that I have

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now is the, is it used to be sort of an us versus them type of thing.

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You always had that home base to come back to, but being in California, especially, which

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is, you know, kind of the behind enemy lines for the most part, there's a lot that, that

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the support from the administration has disintegrated a lot.

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And I'm seeing a lot of folks come in, you know, wonder, you know, because it's, it's,

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it's a difficult job enough without wondering whether you're going to have to plug back

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into home base and whether somebody's coming at you from there too.

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So I had the Sebastian Junger on several times in his book tribe.

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I think is an absolute must read for everyone.

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But if you think about it from a law enforcement or fire perspective, you literally have, have

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spawned a kind of unspoken oath that you will die for the man or woman to the left and right

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of you.

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And obviously for the people that you're trying to respond to, the only reason that works

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is because you have that tribe and you think about like an ancient civilization, you know,

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it takes a village and all these phrases, the tribe is everything.

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But then the number of people I've had, especially in law enforcement who have been wounded in

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the line of duty and then cast aside, they were wearing the uniform when it happened.

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It was on an actual call.

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And then a year later, they're discarded, you know, the disposable heroes.

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So I think that the organizational betrayal, organizational stress element of the first

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responder, you know, mental health, addiction, suicide conversation is woefully under discussed.

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It's very pervasive now that that sense of that disintegration that's coming from that,

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from the home base, that is definitely a theme that I'm starting to see.

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And what I think one of the main things that I've also seen is that we sign up for the

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idea of that being an eventuality of having to involve ourselves and put our lives in

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the line in that way, but not really knowing what that meant, not really understanding

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because you see a lot of people who have those moments and have those things, those times

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where they thought they were going to die and then didn't.

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And then I'll see somebody that's had that experience.

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And what I realize is you signed up for what you thought, but you had no idea.

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You can't know what you're going to, you don't have a crystal ball to see how this is going

289
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to affect you emotionally, how this is going to affect you physically, how it's going to

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affect you financially.

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And yet you say, well, it's still what I signed up for.

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So whatever comes as a result of it, I've got to hold on to.

293
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And that's, I think the biggest fallacy is that you take this stuff on.

294
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It's a weight that you never put down.

295
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That phrase, well, it's what you signed up for is used a lot, especially at the moment,

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because I'm trying to be one of the voices in moving the fire service to a healthy work

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week.

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It's a 42 hour work week, which should be a 24 72.

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And that's the pushback that some of these guys get, always what you signed up for.

300
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And I couldn't disagree more.

301
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What you signed up for was to be a firefighter and or EMT paramedic.

302
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,360
The Northeast works 42 hours a week.

303
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,160
The federal firefighters work 72 and some of the military and other ones, you know,

304
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,920
a lot of ours are working 56 and then mandatory overtime.

305
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That's 80 plus hours a week.

306
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So that's not the job.

307
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That's the mismanagement of the department.

308
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,960
So that's not what you signed up for.

309
00:19:58,960 --> 00:19:59,960
That's right.

310
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:06,200
Well, the implication is that you signed up for whatever they decide to put in front of

311
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,200
you.

312
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That's not true.

313
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:09,920
Right.

314
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,560
Because that leaves it so open ended and doesn't take into account the actual humanity.

315
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,720
It just looks at the numbers in the bottom line.

316
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:17,720
Absolutely.

317
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,680
Which I'm learning now is the false economy.

318
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The numbers, the bottom line are horrendous because you've done it wrong.

319
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It's just that simple.

320
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,300
We're going back to kind of walking into law enforcement.

321
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:31,460
Let's talk about, you know, what was the mental health conversation, if any, and then what

322
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:34,320
about kind of, you know, fitness standards, defensive tactics?

323
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,560
What was that era that you found yourself entering?

324
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,240
Well it was the mental health standard was nonexistent.

325
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:47,600
It was you will, you can put stuff into your container, but you can't pour it out.

326
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Because emotions are weakness.

327
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,800
I mean, that was steeped in that in the Midwest.

328
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,800
Right.

329
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,680
Because like I said, men don't cry.

330
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If anything makes the mistake of coming out, it's shamed right back into that container.

331
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,200
And so that there was a dearth of that right off the bat.

332
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,680
And then of course, the physical standards, you had to be tough.

333
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,680
You had to be strong.

334
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,720
You had to be able to withstand, you know, all these terrible things.

335
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:23,520
And then, you know, tactically, it was very competitive physically and tactically to,

336
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,240
you had to, that's how you showed your worth.

337
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,080
You didn't show your worth by being able to deal with anything sort of mentally healthfully.

338
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,520
You just had to, as long as you were tactically sound, as long as you were physically strong,

339
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:37,800
then you were, that was it.

340
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,920
That's all you needed.

341
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,640
I heard you talking, I wish I could remember the podcast now.

342
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,440
I think it was the, is it the LAO podcast?

343
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,720
Dave is the host, I forget his last name.

344
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:55,600
Anyway, and you were talking about being in, not corrections, I forget the term you used,

345
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,400
but I remember that when in California,

346
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In the custodial setting, yes.

347
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,400
Yeah, so is that, because I know, this was LA and a lot of the other counties, you had

348
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,360
to do kind of corrections first before you were put on the street.

349
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:07,920
Is that the model that you entered?

350
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,280
Yes, because when we first, when I first started, it was with the Alameda County Sheriff's Department

351
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,960
and that was in the custodial setting.

352
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,520
It was in North County Jail in Oakland.

353
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And at the time, I was like, okay, that's great.

354
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As long as at some point down the road, I'm going to get out on patrol, because that's

355
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,520
really where I wanted to be.

356
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,960
And I realized, so that's the reason that I went from Alameda County Sheriff's over

357
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,960
to Hayward is because I wanted to be out on the street, especially after 9-11, that I

358
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,120
wanted to be the person that caught the next person to try to do that.

359
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:40,120
Right?

360
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:44,320
So I did the whole, all the anti-terrorism stuff, crime scene tech, vehicle inspection,

361
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,720
anything I could do that was street level to be able to catch that.

362
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:56,240
Because I remember seeing a documentary that said that officers had pulled over the 9-11

363
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:03,880
hijackers, but because it was pre-Department Homeland Security time where they basically

364
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,040
didn't have all the information, all the agencies weren't talking with one another and that

365
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,400
one sort of got by on them.

366
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,100
And then I was like, oh no, we can never let that happen again.

367
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:17,400
So I wanted to try to have all the knowledge in that particular thing.

368
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,400
What were some of the elements about the corrections side that then served you well when you got

369
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,960
on the street?

370
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,760
Well, it was definitely the situation where the rose-colored glasses came off pretty quick.

371
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:30,760
Right?

372
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:37,000
Because I didn't have much exposure in any way up to that point.

373
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,000
Right?

374
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,400
It's where I saw a lot of my firsts.

375
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,400
Right?

376
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:46,720
I saw my first murder, I saw dead body, the sexual assault, all this kind of stuff.

377
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,400
And it was like my eyes become like, you know, like that holy shit, but it can't be this.

378
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,360
It's just got to be, uh-huh, uh-huh.

379
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,120
You just got to keep the mask on.

380
00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:58,120
Right?

381
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:03,120
And so what that taught me was that you had to keep your guard up because you never knew

382
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:09,600
when somebody was going to basically be your friend in one second and try to, you know,

383
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,960
punch you in the face or stab you in the back, literally stab you in the back the next second.

384
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,520
When you look back now at that, or if you look at our kind of corrections model at the

385
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:28,200
moment now with this kind of psychologist lens, king for a day, what would you do differently?

386
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,880
And the reason I asked this, I've had people on the show, for example, prison governors

387
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,800
from Norway, very, very different model, Bastogh, and their whole kind of ethos is let's take

388
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,640
these men and women when they put them into communities.

389
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:41,760
So it's a community of housing.

390
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,200
They lost their freedom.

391
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,360
They're in prison, but they're on this island called Bastogh off Oslo.

392
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,820
They cook, they clean, they go to school, they go to work.

393
00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:53,020
And so the whole point is that they are going to move in.

394
00:24:53,020 --> 00:24:58,080
I think it's 95% of all incarcerated men and women will move back into your street at some

395
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,080
point.

396
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,380
So let's make them, you know, let's rehabilitate them as much as we can.

397
00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:07,580
So their recidivism rate is the lowest in the world.

398
00:25:07,580 --> 00:25:12,280
When you look now, understanding just mental health in general, and obviously this impact

399
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:17,560
on violence and gang membership and some other things, king for a day, what would you do?

400
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,360
If anything at all, what would you change as far as our kind of, you know, correction

401
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,160
system at the moment?

402
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:29,600
Well that's a very good question because back then the system was still ludicrously broken

403
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:35,120
because the overpopulation and the staff being insufficient to be able, it wasn't like there

404
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,660
were programs in place.

405
00:25:37,660 --> 00:25:45,040
I would say that there needs to be definitely a more robust type of integration process,

406
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,040
right?

407
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,440
And the thing that they're doing now is they're basically just kind of throwing them all in

408
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,960
there like cattle and then we can't be surprised when they do that and then they end up creating

409
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:01,480
communities of power inside the custodial setting where they're the powerful ones, where

410
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,480
the people who are watching them or guarding them or whatever, they're not the highest

411
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:07,800
on the food chain, right?

412
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:18,320
And so until we find a way to sufficiently reduce that population, it's going to be that

413
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,320
way.

414
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,360
And the problem is when I say sufficiently reduce that population, I'm not suggesting

415
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,920
that we need to make it easier for people to get out.

416
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:33,160
I'm saying that we are getting to a point now where it's so overpopulated and under

417
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:39,240
guarded that all we can do is just basically try to survive from day to day.

418
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:46,280
Well, they're better at surviving than we are at living in and monitoring that system.

419
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,340
So I would say, I mean, if there was any way that we could implement the system about which

420
00:26:50,340 --> 00:27:00,360
you spoke, yes, there does need to be more a type of community integration situation,

421
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:09,840
but the problem with that is that if you, a lot of the people, what they're learning

422
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:15,160
or the things that they're learning inside of a custodial setting aren't things that

423
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,560
are translatable outside.

424
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,120
They're basically just learning how to be better criminals inside and then going outside

425
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,660
and going, oh man, I can run the joint here because I'm better at survival than everybody

426
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:26,500
I'm going to be living around, right?

427
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:32,280
So if you say, if you want me to snap my fingers and make it better, I would say, can we move

428
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:38,800
everybody over to that country or create a line that cycles through that so that they

429
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:39,800
learn that?

430
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:46,960
And it's ridiculous, I know, but the idea is that the system as a whole is broken and

431
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,760
it needs to be changed 100%.

432
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,200
Problem is there's not a one day fix of that.

433
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,400
It would have to be integrated very slowly and it just seems to be going, instead of

434
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,620
that, if we integrate it slowly, we'd be able to do it, it would slowly get better.

435
00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:09,320
Problem is it's slowly getting worse because more people are coming in, less people are

436
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,320
guarding them and all this kind of stuff.

437
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,160
And so there's a breaking point at some point.

438
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,200
I'm just kind of sitting back waiting for it to happen.

439
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,200
Yeah.

440
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,040
I can agree more and what was interesting is during COVID, how miserable people were

441
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,000
being locked in their own apartments with their freedom somewhat, but that shows and

442
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,000
what happened, everyone divided.

443
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Do you want a mask?

444
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,000
You're not a mask, vaccine?

445
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,000
No.

446
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,960
I mean, it was literally, it was crips and bloods for influenza.

447
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,160
It was insane.

448
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,160
That's right.

449
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,160
But this is what's crazy is of course, it's not just the prisons.

450
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,480
We have to go into the community.

451
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,440
And I've said this since it's my personal opinion, the war on drugs, the prohibition

452
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,920
is 80 plus year, a longitudinal study that has shown to be an epic failure because a

453
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,700
resting addicts is not the solution.

454
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,760
You look at other countries that do it, at Portugal and Switzerland, they've shown, they've

455
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:07,240
got the blueprint of how you, of course, hunt down smugglers and dealers, but addicts, you

456
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,520
put them through addiction counseling and job creation and mental health counseling

457
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,880
and housing programs and get them on their feet.

458
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,880
And now they're not draining taxes, they're earning taxes.

459
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,840
So it's not just the prisons, but it has to be part of the conversation.

460
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,560
Well they're dealing with the symptoms and the things that happens as a result of this

461
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,640
brokenness.

462
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,880
Instead of trying to deal from the top down, they're basically just dealing with symptoms,

463
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,520
trying to say, well, we need to make it harsher.

464
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:35,840
The penalty is harsher.

465
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,280
It's like, you can make the penalties harsher.

466
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,580
It's just not going to do anything.

467
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:43,220
It's not going to change it the way you think it's going to, because it's going to have

468
00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:46,800
to start, like I said, it's going to have to start from the, it's, I hate to be cliche,

469
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,920
but it's top down and inside out, not outside in.

470
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,920
So absolutely.

471
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,600
Well, one more thing on the correction side and then we'll progress to the street.

472
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,280
But I think this, and again, I'm, you know, career firefighter, paramedic, so never been

473
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,120
in law enforcement, certainly never been in corrections apart from to take patients out

474
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,800
of them.

475
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,580
But what seems to be apparent to me is you've got these men and women that are incarcerated

476
00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:16,560
in these prisons and jails, but the guards are exposed to the same conditions.

477
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,040
So they're working 12 hours.

478
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,280
They've got sleep deprivation.

479
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,960
They don't see daylight.

480
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,880
So talk to me about the kind of impact of that job on you physically and mentally while

481
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,360
you were doing that.

482
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,880
That was, that was really tough because the majority of the time, the majority of the

483
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,240
time, not only in custodial setting, but also on patrol was spent on the midnight shift,

484
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:41,960
which your body is not that it took a serious toll, really changed the, the, just the interior

485
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,760
of me because having to, you know, wake up when the, when the sun was going down and

486
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,720
go to sleep on the sun was coming up, it, it, you know, had the blackout curtains and,

487
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,440
and kind of trying to trick your body into getting rest wasn't very good.

488
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760
Not to mention the fact that the majority of the time that you spend there in this sort

489
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:07,580
of a directorial type of setting, meaning you do this and you do this and you do this

490
00:31:07,580 --> 00:31:13,520
and then you come home, you're, you're exhausted, you're dealing with the people that, that

491
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,400
love you, but then you're, you know, end up being the same sort of person that you're,

492
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,080
you are there at home and does it work?

493
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,320
It absolutely does not work.

494
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,080
And it, and it had, and it takes a toll.

495
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,080
Right.

496
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,400
So there was definitely a lot of drinking, a lot of stuff like that because, you know,

497
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,840
you want, because, you know, the people listened to me more at work than they did at home,

498
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,800
but then I really want to, when I realized that that's, you know, I was trying to, you

499
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,360
know, you've heard the term that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

500
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,360
Right.

501
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,440
And so I was using a hammer and it wasn't, it wasn't working on the people that love

502
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,440
me.

503
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,440
Yeah.

504
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,440
Yeah.

505
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,080
I noticed family and a wife, children don't take to you just barking commands to do what

506
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,520
I say over here, getting this room.

507
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,320
Well then talk to me about a transition in the street.

508
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,000
What was that first experience like?

509
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,880
And then were there any speciality units that you joined?

510
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,920
Well, so when we first went over, one of the things that sort of highlighted that I, that

511
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:19,240
I can look at with, you know, hindsight now, getting out on the street, I was like, okay,

512
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,240
this is great.

513
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,680
I was, it was when I went through FTO, I struggled through FTO because there was always somebody

514
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,120
right next to you that basically scrutinized your behavior, which I get, I understand that,

515
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,120
but it got a lot easier once I finally made the transition and started doing it on my

516
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,120
own.

517
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,160
It was that, it was that it was the person, what I didn't realize at the time was obviously

518
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,520
that person's specifically trying to poke, poke, poke, poke, poke to keep you, to get

519
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
you ready for this type of thing.

520
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,640
You know, get you ready for all the stressors of that.

521
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,520
And there, there, it wasn't, there was no preparation for that.

522
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,840
But one of the, one of the things that I realized that one of the very first, like I'm talking

523
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,720
like right out of the gate, one of the very first dead bodies that I had was there was

524
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,680
one of the things, like I said, I kind of hindsight, there was four things in the nineties

525
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,280
on that particular call, the, the, the temperature outside, the age of the lady, her weight before

526
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,880
she absorbed all the stuff in the bathtub and the thermostat that was turned up.

527
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,160
So she wouldn't be cold when she got out of the bathtub.

528
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,160
Right.

529
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,200
And, and so when one of the things that I noticed is I didn't, I didn't really have

530
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,000
a template for it.

531
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:35,800
And so when I saw this, it was, it was shocking, but shocking, this is shocking.

532
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,160
You know, this blank face is what shocked look like.

533
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,160
Right.

534
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:47,320
And so the, the thing that sort of stuck out to me in that particular situation is how

535
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,640
I got, you know, I got to, I got to kudos for doing a good job in the, in that particular

536
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,640
setting.

537
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,320
And I was shocked at how, how professionalism and shock looked like the same thing.

538
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,320
Right.

539
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,160
You know, as long as I maintain this facade, whatever boiling was going on in here was,

540
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,560
you know, it was, it was my problem to deal with.

541
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:07,800
It wasn't anybody else's.

542
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,680
It was like, if I had a problem with it, I needed to keep it to myself.

543
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,680
Right.

544
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,240
Which is that thing, that, that thing that gets drilled down into you, it's like, you

545
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:17,920
can be shocked, just don't show it.

546
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,760
It was crazy as well as you hear people that have been struggling.

547
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,200
Because I, when I started doing this, you know, early, early on, I actually got a lot

548
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,600
of phone calls from people originally.

549
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,480
And usually, and ironically, most of them with a shaved head, covered in tattoos, big,

550
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,520
you know, burly dudes, because again, you know, they have this mask, but then I have

551
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,800
this mask and you have this mask.

552
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,580
So we look at each other and go, they're all fine.

553
00:34:40,580 --> 00:34:42,360
Why am I the only one being a pussy?

554
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,160
Why is this bothering me when everyone else is okay?

555
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,520
And then you climb inside one of the other people's heads and they're like, why is everyone

556
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:49,520
else okay?

557
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,720
Why am I only being, but you realize that everyone actually is going.

558
00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:58,000
You know, obviously at certain degrees, depending on experience and the kind of, you know, the

559
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,400
place that they are in their mind at that moment, but that mask, and I say this all

560
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,800
the time, it absolutely has a place.

561
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,400
You know, if you're going into a gunfight or we're going into a structure fire, you

562
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,800
know, we can't be queening out and running around screaming, you know, we've got a job

563
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:12,920
to do.

564
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,780
But when you come out and you process the fact that the person and the efficiency that

565
00:35:16,780 --> 00:35:22,400
burnt to death and you had to drag out their body, that you should have a human sadness,

566
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,800
a reaction to that, you know, we just bury that down.

567
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,840
So that mask is absolutely essential at times, but it's the yin and the yang.

568
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,440
We've got to allow ourselves to have that empathy and compassion for ourselves as well.

569
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Well, of course you're serving a purpose because you're going to the worst situation in some

570
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,480
people's lives.

571
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,680
And for you, it's a Tuesday, right?

572
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,800
But that implies that if you can't, you know, this mentality that we can't let it out here

573
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,080
during this particular situation because we have a job to do, unfortunately bleeds over

574
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,760
to the time where it's like, okay, time for you to deal with it.

575
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,560
And you're like, no, no, I must be okay.

576
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,440
Because to show anything like that, right?

577
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,480
And the way I try to explain it to folks is like, you've seen the World's Strongest Man

578
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,480
competition, right?

579
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,880
Oh, yeah, many times.

580
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:10,880
Obviously.

581
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:11,880
Okay, right.

582
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,360
So, biggest people in the world, strongest people in the world, lifting world records

583
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,520
amounts of weight for world records amounts of times.

584
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,000
When they finally put that weight down, does that mean that they're weak?

585
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,840
Or does it mean it was just time to put it down, right?

586
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,420
And then I kind of switch over to, you know, you remember the first time you worked out,

587
00:36:29,420 --> 00:36:34,880
when you worked out, when you left, did you still today have a dumbbell like hanging around

588
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,520
your waist from that workout?

589
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,240
And it's like, no, of course not, because you allowed yourself to put that weight down,

590
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,320
leave, come back in and try again another day, right?

591
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,600
But with this type of stuff, you're like, as soon as I saw that thing, and it melted

592
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,000
me on the inside, and then I found out that nobody else was affected by it.

593
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,120
And I just said, well, I guess I got to hold that weight forever then, because that's what

594
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,120
I signed up for.

595
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,120
You got to like that.

596
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,580
It's a great analogy, because if you pick the weight up and then give yourself ample

597
00:37:00,580 --> 00:37:05,760
rest and recovery, i.e. processing it, then you do develop resilience, you come back a

598
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,800
little bit stronger, if you sleep.

599
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,800
That's right.

600
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,360
All right, well, then what about career calls?

601
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,320
As you progress through your time on the street, what were some of the things that were memorable

602
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,320
for you?

603
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:22,080
Well, that first one, the thing I didn't tell you about that first one is that this little

604
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,120
apartment that she was in, the coroner couldn't get the gurney back there, so they just brought

605
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,800
the bag back and they set it.

606
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:35,280
And she was in the bathtub and she had rigored up a little bit.

607
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,080
And like I said, she was 90 pounds on her driver's license, but she had absorbed all

608
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,080
the water.

609
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,080
And so when they picked her up and put her in the bag, she went everywhere.

610
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,160
And everything came out.

611
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,920
And in my mind, I'm like...

612
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,640
And so the reason I highlight that particular one is because throughout the time that I

613
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:59,120
was there, there were these oh shit moments that are like logos to each one of these things

614
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,600
that happened.

615
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,520
And so I saw somebody get eaten by their dog.

616
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,800
I saw lots of murders, some suicides that I'll never...

617
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,020
Murder suicide I'll never be able to forget.

618
00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:21,000
There was a 19 year old that ended up...

619
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:28,720
Was arranged marriage and she hung herself with the scarf that her fiance had given her

620
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:31,600
because he had broken up with her and her life was over.

621
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:38,000
And it's those images that are just sort of branded into your head where I'm like...

622
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:46,000
That you think, well, for somebody, for each one of those people, it was the most impactful

623
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,320
sending their life off in a trajectory.

624
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,000
And for everybody that does the job, there's that.

625
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,480
And then the next week there was this and then the week after that there was this.

626
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:04,720
There were some of the most, some of the biggest, most impactful things were the ones where

627
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,760
at the time I just sort of took a snapshot of it and then it wasn't until after I looked

628
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,640
back on it and through an emotional lens and went, oh my gosh, I can't believe that something

629
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,640
like that happened.

630
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:15,640
And then it's...

631
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,560
So you have the moment that it happens and then you have the sort of restamp when you

632
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,360
look at it through a different lens and go and try to think of the enormity of being

633
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,600
the person in the situation to which that thing is happening.

634
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,320
And so that got to be kind of overwhelming because I didn't know how to deal with all

635
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,320
that stuff.

636
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:40,680
And like I said, I was drinking pretty heavily and not dealing with it really well.

637
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:46,120
And of course, trying to protect my family by telling them I'm fine and just sort of

638
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:52,200
holding on to this myself, not realizing the whole time it was tearing a swath for me.

639
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,600
Had you already lost your mother by this point or did that come during your time on the street?

640
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,880
That came in my time during the street.

641
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,000
That was 20 years ago, 2004.

642
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:09,600
And it was actually about four years into being on the street, the two-year custodial

643
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,360
setting and then four years on the street.

644
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:17,960
And so when my mom said she had cancer, we went through that whole process and it was,

645
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,720
obviously it was the first time she told me she had cancer that was really impactful.

646
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:26,680
And then it would go away, come back, go away and come back and then come to find out that

647
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,560
towards the end in 2004, it was sort of like, you need to get here.

648
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:32,560
She's about to die.

649
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:37,240
And I drive out from California out to Oklahoma and that.

650
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:42,600
And the thing that I had a hard time adjusting to is this idea like, I'm a man.

651
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,920
I'm this big tough cop and I've been to all these terrible things.

652
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,840
But the person that was sitting in the room at the time that happened wasn't the big tough

653
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:50,840
cop.

654
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:56,800
It was the 13-year-old who used to own this room that she's dying in and sort of taking

655
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:57,880
it in that way.

656
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,720
But trying to just brush it off my shoulder like it's nothing.

657
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:05,160
And it's like, wait a minute, this is a person who's one of my best friends and there's not

658
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,120
a damn thing I can do about it.

659
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,000
It was going from the person being outside having to sort of manage the chaos to being

660
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,000
the person inside going, now what do I do?

661
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,720
What the hell am I supposed to do with this?

662
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:20,160
And I really struggled with that one because the summer...

663
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,920
There's a story that I don't tell very often.

664
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,200
I've written about it just because cathartically you've got to get it out.

665
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,160
But the summer of that same year, I'm in a bad way.

666
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,440
I'm just in a real bad way.

667
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:39,160
I'm sitting up in my bedroom just kind of contemplating the world, drinking and just

668
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,640
getting chewed up by it.

669
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,000
And I'm sitting there staring out the window, drunk off my ass.

670
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,800
And I look and at the time my four-year-old son just happened to be walking by and I'm

671
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,560
like, hey buddy, what's going on?

672
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,760
He comes in and kind of bebops in like it's nothing because he's four years old.

673
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,720
The world hasn't happened to him yet.

674
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:04,120
And I snatch him up like I'm kidnapping him practically and I sit him down and I'm sitting

675
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,840
there talking to him and I'm telling him about this teddy bear that I had when I was a kid.

676
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,720
And I go into this description about all the texture of the teddy bear, how much I miss

677
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:16,000
it and all this kind of stuff.

678
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,280
And I'm sure my slurred words are just coating the back of his neck.

679
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:28,760
And I'm trying to hold on to him literally and metaphorically in this process.

680
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,760
And finally he kind of wriggles out of my grasp and takes off and I'm like, oh great.

681
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,080
In my head I'm thinking, that's just another person that can't handle what it is that I'm

682
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,840
trying to do, really feeling sorry for myself.

683
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,080
And I just kind of go back and staring out the window and drinking a couple of minutes

684
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,760
later I look and he's standing at the door and he's got his chin down like this and he's

685
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,640
standing at attention and I noticed he's got something behind his back and I was like,

686
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:56,680
hey buddy, what's going on?

687
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,480
He runs over to me and he takes what's behind his back and pushes it right into my gut.

688
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,360
And it was his teddy bear.

689
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:08,200
And what I realized then was I was busted.

690
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,560
I was really busted.

691
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:20,080
And it took me a while, I felt so much shame for that.

692
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,920
Nobody in the house deserved what was happening to them.

693
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,080
I didn't think I deserved it either, right?

694
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,000
But I didn't know how to process it, right?

695
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:36,920
And so I felt even more sorry for myself, certainly shame for taking it out on them,

696
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:41,560
and then but also really happy that he sort of recognized that I was struggling and wanted

697
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,560
to try to help.

698
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:43,560
He's four years old, right?

699
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,800
I mean, that's for him to do that was really cool.

700
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,960
And I look back on that and still with a little bit of shame, but obviously, you know, very,

701
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:58,760
very happy that he was that he sort of absorbed that and was trying to help his dad.

702
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,560
That really kind of reminds me of something that I say a lot now, but it reminds me of

703
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,480
it because I've heard over and over and over again.

704
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,320
And I just don't think that people hear this perspective.

705
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,640
But when you think about 20 years ago, as you were talking about, you know, the rubs

706
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,920
and dirt in a generation, the way that suicide was discussed was it was cowardly, it was

707
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:18,920
selfish.

708
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,920
How could you think of the family?

709
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,000
And then you hear in my case, hundreds of people that have been right at that point,

710
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,880
some of them have gone through with their attempts and thank God, I'm able to talk

711
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,200
to them because they survived.

712
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:36,600
But over and over again, there's this reoccurring theme of burden and shame and guilt.

713
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,560
And you don't hear that, you know, this, and I think that people don't understand you talk

714
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:41,820
about alcohol.

715
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:47,180
If you take that perfect storm of unaddressed childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, the horrors

716
00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:51,280
that we see at work, alcohol, side effects of, you know, psych meds, the people that

717
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:57,160
take them on, organizational stress and or betrayal, and you combine it, you know, then

718
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:03,320
it becomes a perfect storm that literally miswires the brain and this reality shifts.

719
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:09,200
And over and over again, I hear from these people who were absolutely at that point,

720
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,160
that they truly believed that they were the reason for their family's pain.

721
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:20,480
And that at that moment made suicide courageous and selfless from an occupation that decided

722
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,760
they would die for a stranger.

723
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,100
Of course, they're going to die for their loved ones.

724
00:45:24,100 --> 00:45:25,640
So talk to me about that.

725
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,200
Where did that darkness take you?

726
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,240
Because when you truly believe that you are the source of the family's pain, that reframes

727
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:36,280
everything, even though through a healthy mind, it makes no sense.

728
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Well, it's unfortunate, but I know what the barrel of my gun tastes like, too.

729
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,560
And I'm looking at this today.

730
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,360
I don't even know how it didn't happen.

731
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:48,360
Right.

732
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:54,720
But having the perspective of that death gave me a little insight.

733
00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:02,240
So I use a lot of analogy and metaphor to try to help people understand what's kind

734
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:03,800
of happening.

735
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,480
And from that comes this sort of understanding.

736
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:14,600
And one of the main things that I tell folks is that, first of all, I'm not a scientist,

737
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,960
scientific experiment perhaps, but not a scientist.

738
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,520
I come from caveman stock.

739
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:25,480
And so I'm trying to basically translate the thing that you go through to this sort of

740
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:33,000
caveman mentality so that the person who is a caveman understands it.

741
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,960
And so one of the things that I tell them, I go, so this is your brain right here.

742
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:39,960
This is your brain.

743
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:40,960
This is my brain.

744
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:41,960
This is everybody's brain.

745
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,960
If you exist on this grain of sand that's hurtling through space right now, then this

746
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:47,560
is your brain.

747
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,080
If this is your brain, then that's that first little peanut that you get whenever you're

748
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,080
first born.

749
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:54,080
Right.

750
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,000
Fight, flight, faint or freeze.

751
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,800
For first responders, it's only one thing.

752
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,640
It's fight, fight, fight or fight.

753
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,640
Right.

754
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,240
And if you imagine this thing like a container, you get this container whenever you're born

755
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:09,500
and whether you have good parents, bad parents, no parents, love and support, abuse and neglect,

756
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:15,760
or a laundry list of trauma from a whole entire career, it dictates how big that container

757
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,440
is going to be and how often you're allowed to pour it out.

758
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:19,440
Right.

759
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,320
Well, if you then you get older and you develop your higher functions, logic, reasoning, stuff

760
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:24,320
like that.

761
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:25,320
Right.

762
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,800
The tucked way deep into the core of this thing is fight, fight, fight or fight.

763
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,480
That's that foundational stuff.

764
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:32,480
Right.

765
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:38,380
Well, the reason that SWAT guys and military guys and everybody in this thing train over

766
00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:43,080
and over and over and over again is because whenever this thing turns on, all of this

767
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:44,080
stuff turns off.

768
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,080
Right.

769
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:50,040
So they're really mad and done something stupid and then said, Oh, why did I do that?

770
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,280
I can't believe I did that.

771
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,200
That's this portion of your brain casting judgment on this portion of your brain for

772
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,040
doing the only thing it knows how to do.

773
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,040
And that's react.

774
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,240
It doesn't have eyeballs, doesn't have ears.

775
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:02,800
It doesn't ruminate contemplate or investigate.

776
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,960
It just reacts.

777
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:04,960
Right.

778
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,640
The gator at the gator at the watering hole and about to get the zebra.

779
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,440
You don't hear the zebra go, Hey, let's talk about this as they're running away.

780
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,120
They're they're they're basically just reacting.

781
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,120
Right.

782
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,720
And so in those moments where you think you're going to die or where you're getting into

783
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:25,680
these high stress situations, this turns on and all of this turns off.

784
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,680
Right.

785
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,560
And so the idea is the only goal whenever this thing is on is to turn it off.

786
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:31,560
Right.

787
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,200
It's meant to find that spot where you where you're not feeling threatened.

788
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,200
Right.

789
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,360
Well, if you're if you're told your whole life that you're not allowed to to feel that

790
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:46,640
to process any of the stuff inside this container, then it gets filled up to about 99 percent

791
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,280
and goes off like this or stays on 24 7 and basically wears your ass out.

792
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,280
Right.

793
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:59,800
And so the idea is to remember that is your only goal is to find out am I in this mindset

794
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,240
where I'm like fight, fight, fight, fight, defend, defend.

795
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:08,440
And most people you find that, you know, we try to we try to make life decisions based

796
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,000
from this mentality and it just it does not work that way.

797
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,000
All right.

798
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:18,080
And so the reason I say that is because like I said before, I use a lot of analogy and

799
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:19,080
metaphor.

800
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,520
So I'm going to use one that I think will kind of help help you and hopefully other

801
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:29,200
people understand what what it means when you get to that point of desperation, what

802
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,560
kind of what's happening.

803
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:31,560
Right.

804
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,680
So have you ever been to like a county fair or anything like that?

805
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:36,680
Yes.

806
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:37,680
OK.

807
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:44,160
So again, like I said, this applies to everybody, whether you're whether you're man, woman,

808
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,320
however you identify, wherever it is you live, it doesn't matter.

809
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,480
It applies to that thing you are before you're anything else.

810
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,680
And that's that is a human being, that thing that we all are first.

811
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:53,680
Right.

812
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,720
Then we get all this other stuff.

813
00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:56,720
Right.

814
00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:58,720
Well, our humanity.

815
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:00,880
So I'm telling you about the fair.

816
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,320
What do you think of whenever you think of the fair?

817
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,320
The Ferris wheel.

818
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,000
The first Ferris wheel, funnel case, corn dogs, stuff like that.

819
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,760
Games, all this kind of stuff.

820
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:09,760
Right.

821
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:14,280
Well, if you ever remember the the game where the where the horses are racing each other

822
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,320
and it's like a it's like a water gun.

823
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,280
But you you're in that lane.

824
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,520
It's like the Kentucky Derby type thing.

825
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:21,520
Absolutely.

826
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:22,520
OK.

827
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,640
So imagine that every human being on the planet has four horses.

828
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:30,280
Then those four horses are responsible, the team responsible for pulling your life.

829
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:31,280
Right.

830
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,080
You, me, everybody, everybody who's listening.

831
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:35,360
OK.

832
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:36,640
There's the physical horse.

833
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,240
That's the container that you came in.

834
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:39,240
Right.

835
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:43,840
That's whether you're tall or short or wide or thin or you're sick all the time or Jim

836
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:44,920
Bro.

837
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,040
It's the spectrum on which everybody falls somewhere.

838
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,040
Right.

839
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,040
Then there's the intellectual horse.

840
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,240
Book smart or street smart.

841
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:56,680
Somewhere in between a little bit of both social horse.

842
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,680
Right.

843
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:58,680
Loner.

844
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,160
Cool kid in the group somewhere in between a little bit of both.

845
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,800
Then there's the emotional horse.

846
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:03,800
OK.

847
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,800
Bang.

848
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:05,800
The gun goes off.

849
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:06,800
It starts.

850
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,280
And again, it starts in childhood.

851
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,480
So there's things that happen in childhood.

852
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:11,480
Right.

853
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,840
For me, speaking specifically for myself, we go the horses take off.

854
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,640
The team takes off to try to figure out who you are.

855
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:18,640
You're going to be the athlete.

856
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:19,640
You're going to be the brainiac.

857
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,640
You're going to be the party animal.

858
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,440
A little bit of both.

859
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:24,440
Right.

860
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,440
Nobody wants to be the emotional one, especially.

861
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,880
And I know that was, you know, emotions are weakness.

862
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:29,880
So why would I?

863
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:30,880
Why would I let this one come out?

864
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,720
We're going to tuck this one back behind the gate.

865
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:35,240
We're going to weld the gate shut.

866
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:37,520
And when things get difficult, here's how we're going to handle it.

867
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,600
We're going to either fight.

868
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:40,600
We're going to work out.

869
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,320
We're going to work overtime.

870
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,320
We're going to intellectualize.

871
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:45,320
Right.

872
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,120
How many guys, you know, that can solve everybody else's problems but their own.

873
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,120
Right.

874
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,120
Absolutely.

875
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,000
And the overtime as well.

876
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,040
Overtime is just a jump in on that.

877
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:59,600
The number of people that don't identify working as filling that void as a coping mechanism

878
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,520
because they're deliberately choosing to be away from the very thing that was most important

879
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,160
to them, which is their family.

880
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,160
Right.

881
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,920
And they know that, but they're too afraid to deal with this portion of what they need

882
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:11,920
to deal with.

883
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:12,920
Right.

884
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,800
Because if you're told your whole entire life, you're not allowed to deal with it, then you

885
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,400
got to lean into the other parts.

886
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:18,400
Right.

887
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:19,400
Socially, what do we do?

888
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,760
We go and we hang out with our pals and we drink and we talk about the things that have

889
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,040
happened in the day.

890
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,080
And the worst part about this one is, you know, the choir practice, you go and you talk

891
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,000
with your pals and you say, hey, you know, that was a pretty crazy call.

892
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,720
We just went to that where the kid death was.

893
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:40,720
And then they're like, and you look at them and they're like, whatever.

894
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:41,720
Right.

895
00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:42,720
Because they're having the same problem you are.

896
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:43,720
They don't want to deal with it.

897
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:44,720
They don't want to show anything.

898
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:46,600
They're keeping that facade up.

899
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,680
And then you look and see their reaction and go, well, that boiling in my gut must just

900
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,520
be the problem that I have.

901
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:54,520
Right.

902
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:59,120
It's not that this thing is normal, is a normal reaction by a normal person.

903
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:00,120
Right.

904
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:07,440
But what you don't realize is that all this, there's stuff being stacked up in this lane.

905
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:08,680
It's just being stacked up.

906
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:09,680
Right.

907
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,800
It's like a Mount Everest pile of shit of all the terrible things you see in and all

908
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,440
the ways you don't want to deal with it and all this kind of stuff.

909
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:22,000
And what you don't realize is that these three end up becoming just jacked.

910
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,800
They are yoked from all, from their use.

911
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,240
And they're like, if things get tough on this, how am I going to deal with it?

912
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:35,040
And this one on the other hand is like a doe-eyed baby walking on stilts that doesn't want to

913
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:36,640
have any, doesn't ever want to come out.

914
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,560
Because the idea of dealing with that and these three are bullies.

915
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,560
Right.

916
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,040
Because if this one ever comes out, there's that feeling in your gut, that shame goes,

917
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,040
how dare you?

918
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:46,040
You can't come out.

919
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:47,440
We'll take care of this.

920
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,320
If I want to deal with something, they're trying to deal with it emotionally.

921
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,240
I mean, intellectually, they're like, yes, I know.

922
00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:56,520
I understand that I need help and I need to do this, but they're not actually processing

923
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:57,520
anything.

924
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:58,520
Right.

925
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,720
So this, this source right here is basically saying, don't come out.

926
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:02,720
I don't want you to come out.

927
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,480
I'll understand it for you.

928
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:05,480
Right.

929
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,000
You just, you just stay back over there.

930
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:12,120
Well, eventually that Mount Everest pile of crap, something happens, whether it gets something

931
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,360
cannonballs into that pile or it's a piece of paper.

932
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,160
It doesn't matter if the container is full.

933
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,240
It rolls down and kicks that gate open.

934
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:25,040
And this doe-eyed baby comes out, looks at this pile of stuff and goes, uh-uh, I can't

935
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:26,040
deal with this too much.

936
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,960
I can't even hold up my own weight, much less the weight of everything I've ignored up to

937
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:30,960
this point.

938
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:31,960
Right.

939
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,520
And so if you think about it like that, it makes sense why some of these guys are taking

940
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,640
their life because they're like, this isn't working.

941
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,640
This isn't working.

942
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:39,900
This isn't working.

943
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:46,100
And when I let this one out through a gauntlet of shame and guilt and through everybody else

944
00:54:46,100 --> 00:54:50,560
I'm thinking is judging me about dealing with this, this Mount Everest pile of crap, you

945
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,960
go, well, obviously the only option is for me to take my own life because I can't, I

946
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,600
can't deal with what I'm, I can't handle what I'm dealing with.

947
00:54:58,600 --> 00:54:59,600
Absolutely.

948
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,760
I think that's the thing with, with this, you know, the shame, the guilt, and obviously

949
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,600
the, the sense of burdensome is you don't really hear that discussed.

950
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,320
And I would argue that, you know, one of the things that needs to be front and center,

951
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,840
one of the biggest red flags, whether you see it within yourself or you hear it through

952
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:20,320
one of your loved ones or coworkers or whatever it is, is, you know, if you truly start believing

953
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,720
that you are the issue, that you are the problem, that's a massive sign to go get help because

954
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:27,840
that's, I think is where there's that switch.

955
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,320
And I've talked about this a lot.

956
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,760
We had an absolutely horrendous case in Florida.

957
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:38,120
I think it was like six or eight months ago now, a couple, both law enforcement officers,

958
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,240
both young, they just had a little boy or a little girl.

959
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:43,560
I forget which gender it was.

960
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,720
The husband takes his own load with her boyfriend, excuse me, takes his own life.

961
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,920
And about seven days later, the girlfriend does.

962
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,340
So now this infant has left on its own healthy mind goes, what were they thinking?

963
00:55:54,340 --> 00:55:55,340
It's so selfish.

964
00:55:55,340 --> 00:55:56,340
How could you?

965
00:55:56,340 --> 00:56:01,440
But at that moment, clearly there was this absolute miswiring and the shift where they

966
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,280
must have believed that this little child they just brought into the world, you know,

967
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,560
that that child was, was worthy to have someone better than themselves.

968
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,640
They were better off without us.

969
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:12,640
Exactly.

970
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,800
So I think that needs to be front and center as well.

971
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:21,320
Well, the thing is too, that they make that assessment from here and everybody that views

972
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,160
that assessment is made from here.

973
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,920
And they go, well, how could they possibly have done that?

974
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,800
It's like, well, if you get into this mindset, things, silly things like that are illogical,

975
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,480
make a lot more sense.

976
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:34,480
Absolutely.

977
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:35,920
Well, what about your journey?

978
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:41,080
You talked about, you know, having tasted the, you know, the taste of the barrel that

979
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,760
obviously I'm assuming along with that moment with your little boy and then sitting there

980
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,600
holding your mother's hand when she passed, which I did with my grandfather with cancer,

981
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,400
you know, all these, these elements you're in these deep kind of pits now, how do you

982
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,960
start getting yourself out and what does that toolbox start to look like that works for

983
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:02,000
you Don specifically?

984
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:09,880
Well, so it was, it took a while because my relationship was really suffering.

985
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:16,360
And my wife can, or my, my, my ex now can attest to the, to the struggles that I went

986
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,640
through in the ways that I wasn't sort of dealing with it.

987
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:24,160
The part that was probably the toughest was the fact that anybody in my life, I think

988
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,400
they would just be too afraid to sort of confront me about it and say, Hey, you're changing

989
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,680
as a person you're right.

990
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:36,520
Because because then it would sort of highlight the fact that I'm this busted person, but

991
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:45,040
it took getting injured to basically really push me down into a hole.

992
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:46,040
Right?

993
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:52,520
Because that's when that's when I was more suicidal because the, because being, being

994
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:59,960
in the job was one thing, but then being on the front lines and then having this injury,

995
00:57:59,960 --> 00:58:05,880
it swallowed me up because I had, because I had no idea, you know, at the time, it felt

996
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,440
like everybody sort of abandoned me.

997
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,440
Right?

998
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:16,120
And, and so getting the injury and having a couple surgeries and then taking pills and

999
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:21,880
getting addicted to pills and, and doing that and alcohol at the same time, it got really

1000
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:22,880
bad.

1001
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,520
And that's that, like I said, that's the time when I, when I actually was thinking about

1002
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,600
ending it all.

1003
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:37,360
And actually, thankfully it was the deeply seeded idea that that killing yourself was,

1004
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:38,360
was a sin, right?

1005
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,440
Because I was raised Southern Baptist in the Midwest and that's, you know, that's a everybody

1006
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,160
but us was going to hell type of mentality.

1007
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,480
But that was very, there was a deep sense of guilt if I had done that and the people

1008
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,760
I'd be sort of leaving behind.

1009
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:57,240
And so the only reason I didn't was because of that thing that was drilled down pretty

1010
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,200
deeply.

1011
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:05,960
But when I, when I went out on that, that particular injury, it was very isolating and

1012
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:11,600
I, and I couldn't understand why, why the majority of the people that I'd worked with,

1013
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:16,040
nobody would, nobody would contact me, find out I'm doing stuff like that.

1014
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:23,400
And it made a real profound sense of bitterness that I had a hard time dealing with because

1015
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,320
I couldn't figure out why somebody wouldn't, you know, they weren't support their brother

1016
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:33,280
and this, this family, this family, and I'm going to air quote the hell out of that because

1017
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,820
what I, but what I realized in a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine who didn't

1018
00:59:36,820 --> 00:59:43,000
abandon me, helped me understand that a little bit better whenever he said, imagine you're

1019
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,360
on the front lines of a war and you're in the trenches, right?

1020
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,160
You and something happens and you get injured and you get taken off the front line.

1021
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,160
It's not because the people at the front line don't want to do that.

1022
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,680
They're still in the war trying to deal with that particular situation.

1023
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:04,040
And what I, what I also realized additionally is that I was having to deal with this portion.

1024
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,600
I was having to deal with the emotional portion of it.

1025
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:13,000
And I was, I was disappointed that the people with whom I worked didn't have the capacity

1026
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,140
to deal with, right?

1027
01:00:14,140 --> 01:00:17,600
So I know that there's some people that kind of said, I don't want to go over there and

1028
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,560
deal with that because I know it's just going to be him telling me how bad everything is

1029
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,440
and how much he's struggling and stuff like that.

1030
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,400
And if you imagine these are like muscles, right?

1031
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,320
I'm asking, I'm trying to make this stronger when I feel really weak.

1032
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:38,040
And then asking other people who've never even let their horse out to say, hey, help

1033
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,560
me deal with this.

1034
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:44,960
And when they kind of turn, they turn their back on me, it felt like, it felt like a betrayal,

1035
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:45,960
right?

1036
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,120
I had a hard time dealing with that betrayal, right?

1037
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:55,800
It wasn't until after I got all the way out of the, of the job that I, that, and deal

1038
01:00:55,800 --> 01:01:00,760
with that bitterness of that and sort of get that separation that I realized how ingrained

1039
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,840
that mentality actually was.

1040
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,800
And so when I finally decided to actually become a therapist, it was sort of like, well,

1041
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:14,080
I got to deal with my own shit first because that stuff I can't, I can't, you know, I,

1042
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,100
what I would be doing if I just became a therapist and didn't deal with it is intellectualizing

1043
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:23,060
everything and completely avoiding all the stuff that I needed to deal with by myself.

1044
01:01:23,060 --> 01:01:28,440
And it was a real, real struggle because I didn't, because like I said, if these, if

1045
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,880
these things are muscles, you're basically asking to put weight on this thing when all

1046
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,880
three of these are really strong.

1047
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:40,520
And you can't, you want to rely on these things to try to deal with your struggles and the

1048
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:46,760
deal with the stuff emotionally was, was, it had to go through, through this idea that

1049
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:51,400
I wasn't allowed to, that there was something wrong with me or like all those, those, the

1050
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:57,040
stigma mentality of, of those hurdles trying to cross into that area to say, well, what

1051
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,040
if, what if I've not broken?

1052
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,880
What if, what if this thing that I'm having is a normal human being reacting normally

1053
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,520
to these extraordinary circumstances?

1054
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,680
And I had used that what if scenario to go, oh yeah, I guess I am a human being.

1055
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:14,560
I mean, the strongest people in the world, it can be the strongest people in the world,

1056
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,200
doesn't negate the fact that there's an emotional component that everybody has that, that you

1057
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:23,040
can avoid it if you want, you can live your own life without avoiding it.

1058
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,720
But you can't be surprised that when you go to put weight on it, that it's not there to

1059
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,280
pick it up if you've never used it.

1060
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:29,280
Absolutely.

1061
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:34,160
The, the mental health impact of an injury, I think is another thing that's under discussed.

1062
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:40,720
I just had a friend of mine who's a firefighter and an athlete and he tore a bicep and he

1063
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,560
just kind of hit a wall.

1064
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:46,160
And then, you know, he was kind of like, you know, frustrated and confused about it.

1065
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,180
I'm like, dude, I've heard this so many times and I had a back injury that took me out for

1066
01:02:49,180 --> 01:02:50,760
six months.

1067
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,720
And you know, it is, you've got that organizational betrayal where there's, you know, for example,

1068
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:00,280
leaders in that, that genuinely are just not, you know, uncaring about the welfare of the

1069
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,240
people, but even the brothers and sisters that you have in uniform.

1070
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:04,600
I agree completely.

1071
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,760
Some, you know, may not care as much as they should, but others are simply, I mean, they're

1072
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:10,760
in the meat grinder.

1073
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,600
You know, a lot of them don't have the capacity to think.

1074
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,660
And even the people that we lose, a lot of the widows say to me, look, everyone was there

1075
01:03:16,660 --> 01:03:20,560
the first week and then no one was there, you know, and this is the point.

1076
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:25,960
So I think as a side note, getting people to actually be assigned to check in, because,

1077
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,440
you know, again, it's that feeling of organizational betrayal, this tribe that you said, I will

1078
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,480
die for these men and women in uniform, and the moment you get hurt, they're nowhere to

1079
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:35,480
be found.

1080
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,920
And I hear this over and over and over again.

1081
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,760
And I don't think most of it is from malice.

1082
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,920
I mean, the more, you know, strained we become with this recruitment crisis, I would argue

1083
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:49,120
the lower amount of camaraderie we're forging because, you know, you should have a high

1084
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,520
bar and shared suffering and, you know, a sense of achievement after probationary year

1085
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:54,520
that you've earned that spot.

1086
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,160
And I think that forges people together.

1087
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,780
But I mean, I've had great stories.

1088
01:03:58,780 --> 01:04:05,120
My first department, Hialeah, one of their guys, I think he got hit on a road accident

1089
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,320
while they were working it and was really badly hurt.

1090
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,200
And they re-roofed his house while he was in hospital and surprised him.

1091
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:16,200
The next department I went for, very similar incident, another guy got hit on the road

1092
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,360
and they, I forget what happened with his house, but they completely redid his house

1093
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,120
and he came out of hospital.

1094
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,420
That is the brotherhood and sisterhood.

1095
01:04:23,420 --> 01:04:26,240
But I feel like, yeah, you know, we kind of forget that.

1096
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:30,800
Yes, you know, my back was injured and yes, it was horrendous not being a firefighter,

1097
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:36,280
you know, and losing that identity and tribe and purpose, but it's losing the people.

1098
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,880
You know, it's not, it's feeling like you completely disregarded and forgotten.

1099
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:40,880
That's truly detrimental.

1100
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,180
It's not the pain, it's not the surgery.

1101
01:04:43,180 --> 01:04:45,440
It's that emotional piece.

1102
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:46,880
That's 100% right.

1103
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:51,000
Yeah, that, I didn't want to admit that I had a problem at the time.

1104
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:56,000
Of course, I still don't want to admit that I had a problem, but I had a problem.

1105
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:02,720
And whether I want, and so having the stigma of it, but then also not being honest with

1106
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:09,320
it myself, you know, it's going to create this distorted reality of what's really going

1107
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:10,320
on.

1108
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:11,320
Absolutely.

1109
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,800
So you talked about it being a struggle, you know, you transition into the mental health

1110
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:16,800
space.

1111
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,960
Obviously you want to, you know, you want to be part of the solution.

1112
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,520
I think lived experience is a big part of that.

1113
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,280
So what were the tools then that you started finding work for you?

1114
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:31,720
Because I think this is another irresponsible thing that happens with some organizations

1115
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,560
like, oh, EMDR is a fix all for everything or this therapy or this therapy.

1116
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:40,120
And what I'm learning now is yours might be psychedelics, talk therapy and equine therapy,

1117
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:44,440
or it might be canines and, you know, a military retreat and something else.

1118
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,280
So what did you start realizing work for you?

1119
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,800
And then that's transition into you actually becoming the mental health professional.

1120
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:58,600
Well, obviously staying physically active as an outlet was pretty important.

1121
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:04,080
And then going to therapy myself, the thing I found most difficult about going to therapy

1122
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,840
myself was that, so when I was the police officer before did the whole anti-terrorism

1123
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,360
thing and one of the things that they taught us was how to read people's facial expressions

1124
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,600
and body language for basically whenever somebody is telling a lie, right?

1125
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:21,720
So I mean, as a therapist now, I just tell you, you know, you can lie all you want.

1126
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,320
I'm just not doing it to me, right?

1127
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:29,000
And so the thing is that I had a hard time with was being able to find somebody that

1128
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:33,200
number one could take the stories because there wasn't like there was something that

1129
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:38,400
I was going, hey, I want to find a therapist who's a first respond, who was a former first

1130
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,400
responder.

1131
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,620
It's like, there's nobody out there.

1132
01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:44,280
There was nobody out there, especially at the time.

1133
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,560
And if there were, they were either hundreds of miles away or didn't have any available

1134
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:51,800
availability whatsoever because their schedule was so full, right?

1135
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:58,720
And so being able to find that outlet was difficult because I could talk with somebody

1136
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,520
for a little bit, tell them a couple of stories and then realize that I'm melting their brain

1137
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,480
with some of the content that I have pulling back and then trying again with somebody else

1138
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,000
and pulling back and trying again with somebody else.

1139
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:18,480
And I found that I was very much in the infancy of a person doing what I was doing.

1140
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,960
Meaning first responder slash therapist and trying to find somebody that I felt like actually

1141
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:28,880
listen that that could actually listen and take what I was doing because I was so scrutinizing

1142
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:34,240
with my own vulnerable part of myself that being able to talk with somebody and then

1143
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:40,140
see when they sort of gave up or checked out and knowing it before, before they even were

1144
01:07:40,140 --> 01:07:44,040
willing to admit it was like, well, this is kind of tough because I still have this stuff

1145
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,840
back here that I needed to tell somebody about.

1146
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:52,760
But it's almost becomes almost becomes careless at saying, okay, I've got this story where

1147
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:59,960
you find the three year old in the freezer and this story where you find the where the

1148
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:04,120
lady is eating and I can go through all this stuff just by bang, by bang, by bang.

1149
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:08,280
And I started doing the MDR, which did help a lot.

1150
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:14,040
But what I, the more than anything else, I found that that on any given day, there's

1151
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:20,260
going to need to be something, whatever, whatever the thing is that helps you sort of process

1152
01:08:20,260 --> 01:08:22,560
this in a healthy way.

1153
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,880
Like you said, there's so many things out there now that are available to be able to

1154
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:33,400
deal with this, but not there's not a one size fits all type of situation because because

1155
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:40,160
one of the some of the things I found worked, worked only because of the person that was

1156
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:41,160
delivering it.

1157
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:42,160
Right.

1158
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:46,960
So I was able to believe the person that I'm talking with is helping me deal with it as

1159
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:48,520
opposed to going EMDR.

1160
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:53,200
Well, EMDR with this person is going to be different than EMDR with this person.

1161
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:58,360
And the first time I did EMDR, I didn't I didn't feel like it was very effective because

1162
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:03,120
I didn't think that the person I think that the person was kind of phoning it in.

1163
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:04,120
Right.

1164
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:10,080
So I became very scrutinizing, much like every other first responder out there in in the

1165
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,280
genuineness of the person with whom I'm and that was really what it was about.

1166
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:18,360
It's just being able to find the person that genuinely wanted to be there to help and knowing

1167
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:22,000
that they're the person that wanted to be there to help and just sort of being content

1168
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,200
with not dumping it all on one person.

1169
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:25,200
Right.

1170
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,560
And finding and sort of just kind of letting out a little bit along the way.

1171
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,360
And it just got better and better as it went along.

1172
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,360
Do I still deal with stuff?

1173
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:34,360
Of course I do.

1174
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:36,520
I'm a human being just like everybody else.

1175
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,960
Well, you touched on I think this is an important point as well.

1176
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:45,240
I've heard a lot of EAP horror stories, you know, counselors being sent, assuming responders

1177
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,760
being sent to the wrong person.

1178
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:50,920
And what really is sad is those are the ones I've heard.

1179
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:52,080
How many have we not heard?

1180
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:53,640
Because that was the final nail in the coffin.

1181
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:57,880
I went to see someone, they started crying or they told me to get out, you know, and

1182
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:59,280
so I must be completely broken.

1183
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:03,000
I'm just going to go, you know, that's the extra bit of burden and shame that they they

1184
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,160
needed to get to that point.

1185
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:06,800
So talk to me about that for a second.

1186
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:12,720
You know, now as we sit here in 2024, how does someone listening online, because obviously

1187
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:19,360
people are listening from all over the world, how do they find or increase the likelihood

1188
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:24,880
of finding the right fit of counselor so they're not having to go through six, eight people

1189
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,760
to find someone who actually can, you know, is culturally competent?

1190
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:34,920
Well, that's one of the one of the main parts of this message that I'm trying to say is

1191
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:37,760
that we feel this sense of obligation.

1192
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:43,560
And I remember some of the first therapists that I went to feeling this idea like I once

1193
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,040
I started talking with them, whether I liked them or not, I had to stay with them or I

1194
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:48,840
had to had to engage in this process.

1195
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,360
And I was like, I didn't get a good, you know, you can kind of get a good vibe.

1196
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:57,160
And you know, first responders are pretty good with that initial vibe.

1197
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:07,760
And so finding somebody that being able to actually engage with somebody, make that initial

1198
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,920
assessment and find out whether they're going to be the person.

1199
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:15,760
And then honestly, and it's really tough to have the courage to go, you're not the person

1200
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:16,760
for me, right?

1201
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,360
Because you feel like it's personal.

1202
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:20,320
It feels like you're sort of insulting them.

1203
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:25,720
You're not trying to insult them, but you're also unfamiliar with the process and and taking

1204
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,920
that initial sense of vulnerability and not interpreting it as you're the you're the reason

1205
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,640
that it's not working or why it's not coming out.

1206
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:40,240
So that's you make these extrapolations that that if I go into this person and they recoil

1207
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:42,040
in horror, then it's my fault, right?

1208
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,640
It's sort of like, no, you just haven't found the right person yet.

1209
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,400
And that's that's kind of the whole idea of this.

1210
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:54,320
This mission that that I talk about, right, is is sort of being able to sort of stand

1211
01:11:54,320 --> 01:12:00,800
up for yourself and and talk and find when you first connect with somebody, if they're

1212
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:02,520
not the person for you, they're not the person for you.

1213
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:06,320
I don't take that stuff personally, because I realize that we're all kind of working on

1214
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:09,800
a on a different level and from different arenas.

1215
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:16,240
And so just being able to sort of start out the process with the right glasses, right?

1216
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,440
That's ultimately what it comes down to is because if you if you have a bad taste in

1217
01:12:19,440 --> 01:12:24,200
your mouth for what therapy is and how it's going to help you and stuff like that, then

1218
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:25,600
you have best GPS in the world.

1219
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,640
But if you start in the wrong place, you're going to end up in the wrong place.

1220
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:34,920
And so ultimately, you're trying to go, what do I need to find at the very beginning?

1221
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:35,920
What's that?

1222
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:37,480
What's the thing that I what's the thing that I need?

1223
01:12:37,480 --> 01:12:41,320
Well, a lot of people don't have any clue what they need.

1224
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:47,120
And what they need initially is to be able to go, do I feel OK with the person with whom

1225
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:48,120
I'm speaking?

1226
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:53,240
Do I do I do I feel like there am I able to make this personal assessment from the inside

1227
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:58,720
out that when I give them the most vulnerable part of myself, that I'll be OK?

1228
01:12:58,720 --> 01:12:59,960
Because that's really what it's about.

1229
01:12:59,960 --> 01:13:00,960
You just don't want it.

1230
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,880
You don't want to take this thing that's like you've been protecting your whole life, put

1231
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:09,520
it out there and then have somebody go right or have somebody laugh and point right.

1232
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,960
Because it's that vulnerable that thing that you don't even want to admit that vulnerability

1233
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:18,800
that you got to kind of put out there and being able to put that out there and go, well,

1234
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,400
I'm making this assessment about the person from whom I'm with whom I'm about to tell

1235
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:25,720
the most deepest, darkest parts of myself.

1236
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:27,040
Will I be OK afterward?

1237
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:31,000
Well, it's like you don't have a crystal ball, but you do have the ability to sort of emotionally

1238
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,920
say, do I get along with this person enough?

1239
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:39,880
Am I am I do I feel like if I let this stuff out, this person will care for that thing

1240
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,840
that's going to come out and not wound me even further?

1241
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:49,160
Because I've noticed a lot of folks that have that come into my practice, they've been to

1242
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:50,280
other places.

1243
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:54,280
They've had that sort of you had a bad taste in my mouth from this previous experience.

1244
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:58,680
And now I'm just I got to the point that's so desperate that I, you know, I reached out

1245
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:04,920
to you and I and I kind of lay part of being able to do it is laying out the truth for

1246
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,600
them, letting them know that this isn't an easy process, that you're going to have to

1247
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,080
that it's going to feel uncomfortable, that you're going to not be good at it and sort

1248
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:16,880
of explain to you that I explained to them that idea that there's different parts of

1249
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:21,240
yourself trying to basically protect you.

1250
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:25,040
Intellectually you can come into a therapy session and go, yes, I understand exactly

1251
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:27,800
what you're saying and I can and I know I need to do this.

1252
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,720
And you walk through this this robotic process.

1253
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,600
But then I go, well, yes, that's you're right.

1254
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,760
You do understand it intellectually.

1255
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:41,720
But what you're going to have to sort of prepare for is this idea that it's going to feel uncomfortable,

1256
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:47,320
that you're going to be doing things against what this this system that's been in place

1257
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,000
to try to protect to protect you.

1258
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:51,000
That doesn't work anymore.

1259
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:54,200
But you got to you got to put some weight on this other stuff.

1260
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:59,800
And you I find that if you prepare in advance with this message.

1261
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:04,280
That it it allows them to kind of start from the right place.

1262
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:08,160
That's really my whole thing, this whole mission, as it were, is making sure that you start

1263
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,000
from from the right place.

1264
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,000
Right.

1265
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:16,960
And the mission, as I obviously play on words, is you got to acknowledge that something's

1266
01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:17,960
going on.

1267
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:18,960
Right.

1268
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:20,880
If you've been depressed for 20 years, it's not who you are.

1269
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,440
You've been depressed for 20 years.

1270
01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:23,440
Right.

1271
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:26,520
So you got to have to acknowledge that you have to accept the level to which that thing

1272
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:28,200
is negatively affecting your life.

1273
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:29,200
Right.

1274
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:30,560
I only drink a little bit.

1275
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:31,840
Everybody else thinks you're an alcoholic.

1276
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:32,840
Right.

1277
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:35,120
But if it changes in you, it ain't going to change.

1278
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:36,700
And this is the mission right here.

1279
01:15:36,700 --> 01:15:40,200
You got to give yourself permission to act on your own behalf.

1280
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:41,200
It's going to be really uncomfortable.

1281
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,760
I'm going to tell you, this is going to be really uncomfortable.

1282
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:50,160
You're going to be putting weight on a muscle that hasn't been exercised.

1283
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:55,640
And the other three bully horses are basically going to be telling you, you're such a pussy.

1284
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,720
You've got to get that thing back and get back in the gate.

1285
01:15:58,720 --> 01:15:59,720
Right.

1286
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:01,480
And you have to acknowledge that it's still got it.

1287
01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:02,880
You still got to exercise that muscle.

1288
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:06,960
You got to lean into the idea that, hey, I thought I was going to die.

1289
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:09,680
Hey, that thing I saw really hurt me.

1290
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,080
And I couldn't understand what it was I was seeing.

1291
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:14,080
Right.

1292
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:20,440
You basically, part of it is just understanding that when you start accepting that there was

1293
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:26,480
fear that that means you're a human being.

1294
01:16:26,480 --> 01:16:27,480
Right.

1295
01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:28,480
There's going to be fear.

1296
01:16:28,480 --> 01:16:29,480
I thought I was going to die.

1297
01:16:29,480 --> 01:16:36,840
I saw something in my own family that I saw on this call and being able to sort of absorb

1298
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,240
this idea that, and I didn't have any control over it.

1299
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:41,240
Right.

1300
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,920
We're supposed to have this control that extends into these situations.

1301
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:49,440
And when I have these things that goes outside of my control, it's like, oops, that went

1302
01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:52,400
against that system I said was never going to happen.

1303
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:53,400
And it did.

1304
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:54,400
Right.

1305
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:59,040
And so you're kind of confronting this idea that you had control over that whole thing.

1306
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:00,040
Right.

1307
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:06,040
One of the main things I talk with folks about is the ABCs.

1308
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Right.

1309
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:13,400
A is the event, right, whatever the chronological event is, and first responders have hundreds

1310
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:15,640
of them, if not thousands.

1311
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,480
B is the oh shit moment.

1312
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:20,760
And then C is the value statement or the unanswered question.

1313
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:22,480
Why would God do this?

1314
01:17:22,480 --> 01:17:23,600
Right.

1315
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:29,040
And so the example I use is I had a conversation with somebody, pulled somebody over for a

1316
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:31,280
traffic stop.

1317
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,280
No issue with the person with whom they pulled it over.

1318
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,080
They go to write them a ticket, come back in their car.

1319
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:37,080
They're writing the ticket.

1320
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:38,800
They've got their foot sitting outside the door.

1321
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:41,920
The door is open and it's on the freeway.

1322
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:42,920
He's writing his ticket.

1323
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:46,720
And then he looks up in his rear view mirror and he realizes that there's a car bearing

1324
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:48,320
on him going about 90 miles an hour.

1325
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:49,600
It's about to obliterate him.

1326
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:50,600
Right.

1327
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:51,600
And it did.

1328
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:52,600
It messed him up.

1329
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:57,440
He was knocked, tore up, he was physically injured.

1330
01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:04,320
Went through this big, huge rehabilitation process and then comes out on the other side.

1331
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:08,720
And then for some reason, when he gets back to work, he can't reengage.

1332
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:13,120
And so the highlight that I make there, obviously, is oh shit moment is that snapshot he took

1333
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,800
looking into the rear view mirror, realizing that that thing was about to hit him and there

1334
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:18,400
wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.

1335
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:19,400
Right.

1336
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:25,640
And it was this concrete structure that believed that he'd always be able to do something about

1337
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:26,640
it, no matter what.

1338
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:30,760
Even if it was a flinch in the right direction to kind of dive out of the way, he'd be able

1339
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:31,760
to, but he didn't.

1340
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:32,760
Right.

1341
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:36,080
And so it shattered this thing he thought was going to be there forever.

1342
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:41,880
And what I tell the folks that I come in contact with is when that stuff happens, you got to

1343
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:46,040
admit that it happened, that you were afraid and that it goes against the structure that

1344
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:49,920
you've had built and that you have to rebuild it based on the fact that that thing had actually

1345
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:50,920
happened.

1346
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:51,920
Right.

1347
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:56,040
I talked a fair amount of folks who believed that they were literally going to die.

1348
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,560
Like they've had combat vets and stuff like that.

1349
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:04,600
And they have this idea that they have these moments, these oh shit moments where they

1350
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:05,880
think they're going to die.

1351
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:06,880
Right.

1352
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:12,560
Well, we can't be surprised after somebody gets that snapshot moment afterwards where

1353
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:16,880
they start being a little bit more impulsive and a little bit more careless because they

1354
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:18,520
think they're playing on the house's money.

1355
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:19,520
Right.

1356
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:21,600
They think, well, I was supposed to die back there.

1357
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:22,600
Right.

1358
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:25,080
And so you got to be able to talk about how afraid you were.

1359
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:26,440
Well, I wasn't afraid.

1360
01:19:26,440 --> 01:19:27,440
Yes you were.

1361
01:19:27,440 --> 01:19:28,440
You are.

1362
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:29,440
If you're a human being, you were afraid.

1363
01:19:29,440 --> 01:19:33,680
You have to admit that you were afraid and that you didn't have any control over it and

1364
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:34,680
all this kind of stuff.

1365
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:35,680
Right.

1366
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,800
And it's that, that just being able to get to that point where you admit that stuff,

1367
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:40,680
a lot kind of allows you to go.

1368
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:41,680
Yes, I was afraid.

1369
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:47,160
And you need to let yourself feel the full fear rather than that, that truncated version

1370
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:51,600
that you, that you felt at the time that that was forced out.

1371
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:52,600
Right.

1372
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,840
And just kind of go, yeah, I thought I was going to die.

1373
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:59,120
It's like, okay, yeah, that's, that's what normal human beings feel when somebody's shooting

1374
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:00,120
at them.

1375
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:05,720
Or when you have these things that, that happen that are so severe, they're like flash bangs.

1376
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:06,720
Right.

1377
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:09,520
They, they've so big and you don't have any control over it.

1378
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,920
And when you have a mentality that basically says, you've got to be in control of everything

1379
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:17,160
and you've got to, you've got to handle this situation and you've got to, when that stuff

1380
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,720
happens, it goes against those internal rules.

1381
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,920
We tell ourselves we're going to abide by forever.

1382
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:23,920
Right.

1383
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:24,920
Absolutely.

1384
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:28,960
Well, I want to hit one more area and then we'll go to some closing questions.

1385
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:34,040
You also have got quite a lot of specialties when it comes to, you know, family unit marriage

1386
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:35,600
on that side as well.

1387
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,440
So talk to me about the nuances of that, because I mean, a lot of these conversations, when

1388
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:42,360
it comes to mental health, we're talking about the individual.

1389
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,240
Let's expand now to the family dynamic.

1390
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:53,840
Well, so what I noticed, or at least the flaws and the mistakes that I made was that communication

1391
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:57,840
is the, is the biggest thing that you can do.

1392
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:02,280
And when I say communication, I'm not talking about how you walk in the front door and you

1393
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:06,400
sit your family down and say, Hey, I just had this terrible thing happen.

1394
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:07,800
And here's the details.

1395
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:08,800
Right.

1396
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,720
And because I'm fine is not communication.

1397
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:12,720
Right.

1398
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:17,520
And in this family structure, you have to realize that from the moment you start doing

1399
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:22,000
any type of first responder work, it's going to change you as a person.

1400
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:23,000
That is guaranteed.

1401
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,000
Right.

1402
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:25,280
You can be the healthiest person in the world.

1403
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:29,480
You can be the most emotionally healthy person.

1404
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:33,280
And it's still going to change you because you're seeing some terrible things and you're

1405
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:37,880
exposed to some, a lot of high emotion stuff that you don't have control over.

1406
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:38,880
Right.

1407
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:44,800
And so being able to sort of communicate that and say, like, like take, for example, you

1408
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,600
come home after a really bad call.

1409
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:51,520
The last thing you want to do is tell everybody that you're fine.

1410
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:52,520
Right.

1411
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:56,520
Because, because if you imagine, well, let's take my, my son and four years old, right.

1412
01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:01,880
If I'd had these terrible things happen and I walk in and you know, daddy loves you and

1413
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:03,720
he gives you a hug and all this kind of stuff.

1414
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,480
And first language that kids learn is, is body language.

1415
01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:08,480
There's no question here.

1416
01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:13,040
You can see this far in front of your face, the kids absorbing everything that you're

1417
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:14,040
doing.

1418
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:15,040
Right.

1419
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:20,080
And you come in and you're just coded with tension and all this stuff that you're, that

1420
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:21,520
you're not processing.

1421
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:26,640
And then you come in and your kid says, Hey daddy, what's wrong?

1422
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:28,200
And you're going, Oh, I'm fine.

1423
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:33,760
He's getting this mixed message about, you're basically telling everybody that fine is this

1424
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:36,520
version that you're seeing and it's not fine.

1425
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:37,520
Right.

1426
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,360
You got to be able to actually say, I had something very significant happen today.

1427
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:43,160
It was very impactful.

1428
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:47,920
I'm feeling, I'm still trying to process that thing and just being, just being honest with,

1429
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:51,800
with sort of opening up and saying, I had this terrible thing happen.

1430
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,920
I'm still trying to understand it.

1431
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:59,680
I need to go and talk to somebody about it, but including them in that communication to

1432
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:04,200
say that these things have happened, not the details of the, you're not trying to, you're

1433
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,040
not trying to vicariously traumatize anybody.

1434
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:11,300
You're basically just trying to say, I had this thing happen.

1435
01:23:11,300 --> 01:23:14,880
It's a weight that I'm carrying and the, but the weight doesn't have anything to do with

1436
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:15,880
you.

1437
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:16,880
Right.

1438
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:19,600
I want you to know that I care enough about you to tell you that this thing happened,

1439
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:23,640
but also to let you know that if I start to, you're basically trying to, you're trying

1440
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:29,640
to create a communication dialogue that, that allows you to tell them that, that an event

1441
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:35,440
happened, but obviously not the details of the event, but also that this event that happened

1442
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:43,040
may sort of affect me in a way that you, that when you see something, it won't be your fault.

1443
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:44,040
Right.

1444
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:49,240
Cause especially kids, kids think, well, if you tell me, if, if, if you tell me you're

1445
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:52,440
fine and then I still feel uncomfortable and it must be my fault.

1446
01:23:52,440 --> 01:23:53,440
Right.

1447
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:55,800
And that's a terrible message to tell them.

1448
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,440
You just want to be able to go, I had this thing happen to me.

1449
01:23:59,440 --> 01:24:00,600
I'm still trying to process it.

1450
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,240
I'm still trying to work on it, but I want you to know that I love you.

1451
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:04,240
I care for you.

1452
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,680
And that all this stuff that you, that you, this, this tension that you feel for me is

1453
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:09,160
not, you're not responsible for.

1454
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:14,120
And you gotta be as open as you can about being able to tell somebody like that because,

1455
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:19,160
because in the absence of having an explanation, people will take it upon themselves to say,

1456
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:21,560
well, it must be the something that I'm doing.

1457
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:22,920
It's built into us.

1458
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:23,920
Right.

1459
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:24,920
Yeah, absolutely.

1460
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:25,920
Beautiful.

1461
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,480
Well, I want to go to some closing questions.

1462
01:24:28,480 --> 01:24:30,360
I'm going to be mindful of your time.

1463
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:35,000
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?

1464
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:40,680
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1465
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:46,440
I don't know if you, you know, Paul Gilmartin's book, if you've seen that one.

1466
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:47,440
I've heard of him.

1467
01:24:47,440 --> 01:24:48,440
Yeah.

1468
01:24:48,440 --> 01:24:49,440
What's the name of it?

1469
01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:55,200
That I think is, but want to say, oh my gosh, I can't remember.

1470
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:59,120
It's a red and white book, emotional support for law enforcement.

1471
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:00,120
Yeah.

1472
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:05,880
And it's, it really is a, it's, it's a very simple texts, meaning it's, it's not super

1473
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:11,520
long and not very complicated, but it does give a good sort of snapshot of what to expect

1474
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:18,000
and how, how, when you have these, you know, traumatizing events on the daily, recognizing

1475
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,120
the red flags.

1476
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:24,100
And so, you know, there, you can be the smartest person in the world and recognize all the

1477
01:25:24,100 --> 01:25:28,160
red flags, but you still have to be able to get to the start line to, to deal with it,

1478
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:29,160
right?

1479
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,840
Giving yourself permission to deal with it.

1480
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:37,600
But just knowing that it's going on and making sure that, that, that knowledge is, is showing

1481
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:41,940
you that it's this thing that you thought was a mystery, isn't a mystery.

1482
01:25:41,940 --> 01:25:42,940
It's a reaction, right?

1483
01:25:42,940 --> 01:25:46,780
You get a cut on your arm, you feel pain, pain tells your brain that something's wrong

1484
01:25:46,780 --> 01:25:47,780
with your arm, right?

1485
01:25:47,780 --> 01:25:49,880
Your arm didn't do anything wrong, right?

1486
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:53,860
But if you're starting to feel anxiety and depression and anger and stuff like that,

1487
01:25:53,860 --> 01:25:59,480
and it's coming out in your world in a place, in places that it's not, not normally, not,

1488
01:25:59,480 --> 01:26:03,360
wouldn't normally, but also are not supposed to, then that's the back part of your brain

1489
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,780
telling the front part of your brain that something's wrong, not something's wrong with

1490
01:26:06,780 --> 01:26:07,900
you, right?

1491
01:26:07,900 --> 01:26:13,760
And addressing that system that says that when this thing happens, it's a symptom of

1492
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:19,600
the thing that's happened to you, not a symptom of the disease that you have, right?

1493
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:22,520
But Gilmarn's book would be one I'd definitely recommend.

1494
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:23,520
Brilliant.

1495
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,020
What about documentaries and or films?

1496
01:26:27,020 --> 01:26:35,300
Ooh, well, so there's one particular film that when I saw it, it kind of like maybe

1497
01:26:35,300 --> 01:26:41,940
it like really plucked the string was End of Watch.

1498
01:26:41,940 --> 01:26:46,420
And I don't know what that's that one was a real tough one to watch towards the end,

1499
01:26:46,420 --> 01:26:50,940
especially at the time I was I wasn't I'm still kind of trying to deal with stuff.

1500
01:26:50,940 --> 01:26:57,240
I would say it's a pretty good look into it, but it's also be cautious because we're still

1501
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:58,380
dealing with PTSD.

1502
01:26:58,380 --> 01:27:03,380
That's not the thing that you want to necessarily watch.

1503
01:27:03,380 --> 01:27:05,020
You know what, actually, that's a really good question.

1504
01:27:05,020 --> 01:27:09,180
I wish I had I wish I'd come more prepared and be able to answer that question.

1505
01:27:09,180 --> 01:27:11,220
Yeah, no, one film is great.

1506
01:27:11,220 --> 01:27:12,220
Right.

1507
01:27:12,220 --> 01:27:16,380
Well, the next question, before we talk about, you know, where people can find you and obviously

1508
01:27:16,380 --> 01:27:21,140
your services, what do you do to decompress these days?

1509
01:27:21,140 --> 01:27:25,380
Again, staying active, I do.

1510
01:27:25,380 --> 01:27:32,340
Recently I've done a lot of I went to a place called Elevate out of Boise and I went to

1511
01:27:32,340 --> 01:27:33,340
this.

1512
01:27:33,340 --> 01:27:34,840
It's really good, by the way.

1513
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:43,380
And they had all these, you know, float services and red light therapy and and detoxifying,

1514
01:27:43,380 --> 01:27:49,700
like physically detoxifying thing, and I find that stuff to be really, really helpful.

1515
01:27:49,700 --> 01:27:56,580
I am actually actively looking for a therapist to kind of to catch this phase of what it

1516
01:27:56,580 --> 01:27:58,220
is I'm trying to do.

1517
01:27:58,220 --> 01:28:10,940
And so my my my recommendation more than anything else is to is to be mindful of the old mindsets

1518
01:28:10,940 --> 01:28:21,580
of making sure that I'm not getting into the the same sort of cycles that that that allow

1519
01:28:21,580 --> 01:28:24,900
me to hold on to too much weight, because I'll be the first one to tell you, like I

1520
01:28:24,900 --> 01:28:26,740
said, I'm a human being like everybody else.

1521
01:28:26,740 --> 01:28:28,220
I feel stress.

1522
01:28:28,220 --> 01:28:30,500
I feel anxiety.

1523
01:28:30,500 --> 01:28:32,940
And sometimes that stuff gets to be a lot too much.

1524
01:28:32,940 --> 01:28:39,840
But staying physically active, staying like finding when I'm not, you know, getting into

1525
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:44,900
social settings that might otherwise make me, you know, other sometimes I, you know,

1526
01:28:44,900 --> 01:28:48,860
people want to be isolated and they just want to kind of fall back and recoup.

1527
01:28:48,860 --> 01:28:50,740
And you're not recouping when you're by yourself.

1528
01:28:50,740 --> 01:28:54,500
It's one of those things you got to you got to stay active because you need to be able

1529
01:28:54,500 --> 01:28:58,820
one of the main things I think that I do is make sure I'm staying plugged in with other

1530
01:28:58,820 --> 01:29:02,380
people to say, hey, you know, what's going on with you?

1531
01:29:02,380 --> 01:29:09,640
You're using them as a good barometer and making sure that I'm trying to stay connected

1532
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:15,740
to this idea that when somebody gives me that feedback, they're doing it for me and not

1533
01:29:15,740 --> 01:29:17,140
to me.

1534
01:29:17,140 --> 01:29:18,140
Right?

1535
01:29:18,140 --> 01:29:19,140
Absolutely.

1536
01:29:19,140 --> 01:29:20,140
All right.

1537
01:29:20,140 --> 01:29:24,300
Well, then where can people find you online and obviously the website for your services?

1538
01:29:24,300 --> 01:29:30,580
Well, so if you'll find me on psychology today, it's done with two ends.

1539
01:29:30,580 --> 01:29:36,300
Bradley and it's out of Brentwood out of the Northern California Brentwood, not the OJ

1540
01:29:36,300 --> 01:29:38,220
Brentwood.

1541
01:29:38,220 --> 01:29:41,380
And honestly, I don't I don't market a lot.

1542
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:47,100
I do it because I might my this message I'm trying to do if it were up to me, you know,

1543
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:51,900
I'd do the little men in black pin thing and block out my face because honestly, I'm just

1544
01:29:51,900 --> 01:29:54,140
trying to get folks out there.

1545
01:29:54,140 --> 01:29:55,540
I don't really market that much.

1546
01:29:55,540 --> 01:29:58,940
But I will tell everybody that's listening here, if you're struggling and you're having

1547
01:29:58,940 --> 01:30:01,100
a hard time, by all means, reach out.

1548
01:30:01,100 --> 01:30:08,940
You can call me, email me therapy with Don at Gmail dot com.

1549
01:30:08,940 --> 01:30:13,620
And just you know, like I said, I don't want anybody to have to get to the depth of the

1550
01:30:13,620 --> 01:30:17,820
places that I've gotten to or the ones that I've seen the stories on.

1551
01:30:17,820 --> 01:30:20,980
It's like, you know, before you go, let's talk.

1552
01:30:20,980 --> 01:30:21,980
Right.

1553
01:30:21,980 --> 01:30:25,740
Because basically, I don't want anybody to have to carry that weight.

1554
01:30:25,740 --> 01:30:29,660
So like I said, I'm not necessarily trying to market myself.

1555
01:30:29,660 --> 01:30:34,500
I just want to get the message out there that to give yourself permission to kind of step

1556
01:30:34,500 --> 01:30:35,940
into this.

1557
01:30:35,940 --> 01:30:40,300
But if you need help with that, then by all means, therapy with Don at Gmail or look on

1558
01:30:40,300 --> 01:30:42,300
psychology today, you'll find me beautiful.

1559
01:30:42,300 --> 01:30:47,920
Yeah, I don't think you need to market the I think the lack of counselors is outweighed

1560
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:50,460
by the immense need from the first responder community.

1561
01:30:50,460 --> 01:30:53,000
So you're an invaluable resource.

1562
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:57,500
So I want to thank you so much, not only for obviously talking about, you know, the psychological

1563
01:30:57,500 --> 01:31:01,900
side, but also, again, your own courageous vulnerability and telling your story, because

1564
01:31:01,900 --> 01:31:07,980
I think that lived experience and that vulnerability is truly, you know, what joins someone with

1565
01:31:07,980 --> 01:31:08,980
that therapist.

1566
01:31:08,980 --> 01:31:10,860
They don't have to have this traumatic life.

1567
01:31:10,860 --> 01:31:14,860
But as you said, if they're intellect, if they're purely academic, then there's that

1568
01:31:14,860 --> 01:31:16,780
disconnect and that can be very dangerous.

1569
01:31:16,780 --> 01:31:20,340
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1570
01:31:20,340 --> 01:31:22,260
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1571
01:31:22,260 --> 01:31:23,260
Thanks for having me, James.

1572
01:31:23,260 --> 01:31:33,700
I appreciate you.