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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on
the show law enforcement officer turned mental health therapist Don Bradley.
So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Don's journey into law enforcement,
some of his career calls, his own powerful mental health story, his transition out, becoming
part of the proactive solution as a mental health therapist, the first responder marriage
and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
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And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories.
So I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So that being said, I introduce to you Don Bradley.
Enjoy.
Well Don, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?
I'm currently sitting in a small town called Discovery Bay, California, which is East Bay
of Northern California, the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area.
Well, I would have to start at the very beginning.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
Well, so I was born in Oregon, Salem, Oregon, and then I was born a twin.
So for about four minutes, my mom got to think, everything's going to be okay.
And then this thing came out of there and later lived for the next five years.
We had one, two, three, four, five, five kids in the house at the time.
Parents got divorced.
My mom was a stay at home mom.
My dad worked for a silver, I believe it was Silver Stream back in the Silver Stream RVs
back those really silver ones.
Shiny ones.
Yeah.
And then about five years old, we were taking a surprise vacation that was apparently only
surprised my dad.
We ended up moving out to Oklahoma, the buckle of the Bible belt, and come to find out that
that divorce thing had been sort of steaming for quite some time.
Mom was a single mom that really struggled.
We were as poor as poor could be starting out, then stayed in Oklahoma for the majority
all the way until college.
He's getting sort of steeped in that emotions or weakness, men don't cry type of mentality.
And so, but for the most part, didn't even realize how poor I was until we finally kind
of got out of there and got a little perspective on it.
But had very little contact with my dad because my mom hated him so much.
Ultimately the relationship with the dad was strained for the longest time.
My mom was my best friend and then unfortunately she passed about 20 years ago and I got to
sit front row seat to that.
Well, firstly, I'm sorry about your mom.
It was just one of those things where that was probably one of the main things that sort
of spurred me to kind of do this sort of inside out process because I had such a hard time
understanding why I had to be the one that was there.
So resented everybody else that wasn't and my sister and my stepfather eventually came
in and was and unfortunately it was in the bedroom I grew up in high school.
So it was very, it was like drilled way deep down.
So fortunately, you got to go way deep down to unscrew that.
Well, before we even get to there, this is an aha moment that I had after several interviews
by this point, probably in the first year.
But Jake Clark and some other people really open my eyes to the impact of our early life
on our own mental health when we put the uniform on.
And as I say a lot recently, if you are able to offload that or process some of those struggles
when you're young, then you're extremely fortunate and you have that kind of more resilience
going in.
But I think a lot of people, it's buried down.
There's a Mexican proverb that says, they tried to bury us.
They didn't know that we were seeds.
And I love that.
So forcing that down when we were little.
So when you look back now, you've talked about divorce, obviously later on you talk about
losing your mother.
But through a young child's eyes, that little boy inside, what were some of the kind of
the negative impacts of that?
Even though, as people always say, the parents did the best of what they had.
What would be some of the kind of traumas you think through your eyes back then?
Well, not having a lot of the normal just day to day life mentorship that you need to
sort of live life, right?
How to deal with things emotionally.
When the people who are raising you don't have the emotional tools for themselves and
they can't pass it on to you, right?
And so trying to figure out how to deal with things are done from the outside in, right?
You look at other people and see what you think is going to be there.
You look at them and sort of judge based on your broken system, how they're, that they're
doing it right based on what you see.
And if your meter's broken, then you're going to just do it based, because it's like, well,
they look okay, so I'm going to do that.
And it's sort of, it doesn't necessarily dig into that inside out process that you end
up having to do.
What about sports and exercise?
What were you doing as a kid through the school ages?
That was well, so in, in, in Oklahoma football is a big deal, right?
And so football, you did football, you did sports were the way that you sort of, you
know, that was, it was a status and it was a, and you didn't realize that it was in fact
an outlet, but it was definitely a status, right?
If you played football, that's what everybody did.
So you were supposed to do it, right?
Excuse me.
And so I did obviously football, played football.
I did powerlifting and, and different things like that, but I was, I was more of the individual,
I like to be more of the individual sports as opposed to the group stuff.
What about career aspirations?
What were you dreaming of becoming through school age?
Was it law enforcement or was there something else first?
It wasn't.
You know, what's, what's funny is I found out pretty early that I was a old soul, which
basically meant that I knew how to talk to adults or I feel like I was more, more aligned
with adult, with an adult mentality.
And what I realized pretty early is, you know, I think, I think it was, in fact, I can vaguely
remember a time when somebody told me, he's like, you should be a psychologist.
Cause I, cause I was a really good listener for the most part.
And what I gleaned from that with no other sort of guidance in that way was that I just
wanted to, I just wanted to help you.
Right.
I just wanted to help people.
That's, that was, it was a plain and simple, very Rube like mentality.
And so I didn't really necessarily, it wasn't like there was a history of law enforcement
or there was a hit or any particular influence that said, you should do this.
It was just sort of like, cause there wasn't even that guidance.
And so not having, I mean, I had a stepfather who was a fantastic man, but it wasn't like
he was stepping in there and go, here's what you should do.
And you should do this.
He, I mean, I got the impression that he was sort of kind of staying back and not necessarily
want, he didn't, he didn't, he helped us.
He supported us obviously financially, but he had had kids with a previous marriage and
it felt like he was just kind of staying back to make sure he didn't, you know, like you
try to be overbearing or anything like that.
Like I said, really fantastic guy, but it wasn't like he had this, this agenda to go
here's, I'm going to help you develop in life and become this person.
So we were kind of freelancing it, looking around going who's successful, what do we
do?
And the only reason that we even got out or at least for me, the only reason that I got
out of that particular area was because of the divorce and how my dad lived on the West
coast.
And so we'd get that exposure.
Cause a lot of the people that, that I knew that were, that grew up in that area stayed
in that area, which I didn't necessarily understand because I realized that the world was a much
bigger place because of the exposure that I had.
And so I just knew that I wanted to, I wanted more, but I didn't know exactly what I wanted.
A lot of people that have challenges when they're younger, especially if a parent is
not there either physically or at least, you know, mentally, depending on the dynamic is
more often than not, if they find themselves ultimately on a good path, there were some
mentors.
It sounds like you said your stepdad was a good person.
When you look back now, were there other, you know, men or women through this journey
that also helped kind of steer you onto the right path?
Well, there were some, some influential teachers that were, that were involved.
My one of my science teacher, some of my coaches and things like that, they, they weren't,
they were just positive influences, not so much people that basically said, go this direction
or go this direction or find out who you are or anything like that.
They just weren't, it's, there's, you know, there's a positive influence and then there's
a not negative influence, meaning somebody that was there didn't necessarily weren't
there to sort of negatively impact you.
There were, there's, there are positive people who wanted to make sure that they sort of
did right by it, but it wasn't like they said, here's the path you take, step one, step two,
step three.
It was, you know, and so once I, once I got out of high school, I did, I did pretty well
in the school.
It was there, but they didn't necessarily prepare me for what it was going to be like
to be in college, you know, like what, you know, time management, financial management,
stuff like that.
And so getting into that was like, there was, the world became a much bigger place when
I realized that I was the one that had to grab ahold of the steering wheel.
So,
So what did that look like then?
You graduate high school, you know, what was that path ultimately into law enforcement?
Well, so I graduated in a class of 48 people, right?
And so not a, not a massive amount of folks.
And at the top of that, I think I graduated third in the class, which is, which was great.
It just, it made me feel smart, but I wasn't, when I realized is when I finally got out
there that I wasn't as smart as I thought I was.
And so getting into college, I struggled, I struggled quite a bit.
And it wasn't, and it was because I didn't know how about time management and, and knowing
when to study and didn't have somebody on there saying, you got to study this.
And in high school, I didn't really have to study, it was really super easy up to that
point.
And so when I finally got to the point where they demanded more of me, I was like, oh no,
what do I do now?
And not really, and it wasn't even like somebody was there to say, you should get a tutor and
you should do this.
And it was, it was, you know, I struggled all the way through college and had, that's
various events that sort of affected the direction I was going, some injuries and stuff like
that that were, but definitely sent me off in a different direction.
What was the initial direction that you were trying to get to?
Well, I, my initial direction was to graduate with a degree in psychology and, and, but
the thing is, I didn't know what I was going to do with it afterwards.
All I knew is I, in fact, I remember the one, there was one class towards the end where
I was like, where I thought to myself, I don't want to sit and listen to people's problems
all day.
That sucks.
I wanted to actually get in the action, right?
I wanted to, that when I, when I finally started to put it together, it was, I wanted to help
people and I didn't want to die in a cubicle.
And so, and so that was very vague.
There was a lot of different open ended kind of searching that went on in that way.
And again, like I said, it wasn't from the inside out.
It was just sort of like who's being successful and how can I, and look at them as the template
and go, go in that direction based on what I see rather than what I know.
Do you want to talk to me about law enforcement being that direction that you were pulled
towards?
Well, you know, when I, when I, when I finally came out to California, it was after, after
this, I was, I really didn't have a direction.
I was kind of struggling because I just, I needed a job.
I needed to be able to make money, had no idea what I was doing.
And then I had that epiphany of sort of going, well, I want to help people and I want to
do that.
And I want to, and I want to, don't want to die in a cubicle.
So at first I wanted to be a firefighter, but I didn't, I, there was too many, too many
people trying to do that.
And I don't know if people trying to do law enforcement.
So I thought law enforcement sounds good.
Let's do that.
It was very seat of my pants type of, of way, you know, direction.
And I kind of went in that direction because I, I just wanted, like I said, I wanted to
actually be able to help.
I wanted to be the hero.
What would kind of, what we all kind of come from.
I want to be that hero that, you know, ran into the building and save folks.
It's funny because we're in the middle of a recruitment crisis now.
And it's, it's something I think people have almost forgotten that I have only been on
12.
I would have been on 20 years that I stayed in uniform.
So it's only 20 years ago that I first joined and it was so competitive back then.
If you go back even further, you know, it was even worse for a while.
And now you look at today, you know, and this is what's sad is there should be that same
demand.
The job is the same.
It's not the actual profession itself, but the way that some of the working environments
and some of the lack of support of devolved for our first responders.
Now, you know, the recruitment crisis literally illustrates, you know, the lack of demand
because people can see it for what it is.
And it's, it's an incredible calling, but there are some things that need to be fixed
without question.
One of the main things that I see in a lot of the first responder clients that I have
now is the, is it used to be sort of an us versus them type of thing.
You always had that home base to come back to, but being in California, especially, which
is, you know, kind of the behind enemy lines for the most part, there's a lot that, that
the support from the administration has disintegrated a lot.
And I'm seeing a lot of folks come in, you know, wonder, you know, because it's, it's,
it's a difficult job enough without wondering whether you're going to have to plug back
into home base and whether somebody's coming at you from there too.
So I had the Sebastian Junger on several times in his book tribe.
I think is an absolute must read for everyone.
But if you think about it from a law enforcement or fire perspective, you literally have, have
spawned a kind of unspoken oath that you will die for the man or woman to the left and right
of you.
And obviously for the people that you're trying to respond to, the only reason that works
is because you have that tribe and you think about like an ancient civilization, you know,
it takes a village and all these phrases, the tribe is everything.
But then the number of people I've had, especially in law enforcement who have been wounded in
the line of duty and then cast aside, they were wearing the uniform when it happened.
It was on an actual call.
And then a year later, they're discarded, you know, the disposable heroes.
So I think that the organizational betrayal, organizational stress element of the first
responder, you know, mental health, addiction, suicide conversation is woefully under discussed.
It's very pervasive now that that sense of that disintegration that's coming from that,
from the home base, that is definitely a theme that I'm starting to see.
And what I think one of the main things that I've also seen is that we sign up for the
idea of that being an eventuality of having to involve ourselves and put our lives in
the line in that way, but not really knowing what that meant, not really understanding
because you see a lot of people who have those moments and have those things, those times
where they thought they were going to die and then didn't.
And then I'll see somebody that's had that experience.
And what I realize is you signed up for what you thought, but you had no idea.
You can't know what you're going to, you don't have a crystal ball to see how this is going
to affect you emotionally, how this is going to affect you physically, how it's going to
affect you financially.
And yet you say, well, it's still what I signed up for.
So whatever comes as a result of it, I've got to hold on to.
And that's, I think the biggest fallacy is that you take this stuff on.
It's a weight that you never put down.
That phrase, well, it's what you signed up for is used a lot, especially at the moment,
because I'm trying to be one of the voices in moving the fire service to a healthy work
week.
It's a 42 hour work week, which should be a 24 72.
And that's the pushback that some of these guys get, always what you signed up for.
And I couldn't disagree more.
What you signed up for was to be a firefighter and or EMT paramedic.
The Northeast works 42 hours a week.
The federal firefighters work 72 and some of the military and other ones, you know,
a lot of ours are working 56 and then mandatory overtime.
That's 80 plus hours a week.
So that's not the job.
That's the mismanagement of the department.
So that's not what you signed up for.
That's right.
Well, the implication is that you signed up for whatever they decide to put in front of
you.
That's not true.
Right.
Because that leaves it so open ended and doesn't take into account the actual humanity.
It just looks at the numbers in the bottom line.
Absolutely.
Which I'm learning now is the false economy.
The numbers, the bottom line are horrendous because you've done it wrong.
It's just that simple.
We're going back to kind of walking into law enforcement.
Let's talk about, you know, what was the mental health conversation, if any, and then what
about kind of, you know, fitness standards, defensive tactics?
What was that era that you found yourself entering?
Well it was the mental health standard was nonexistent.
It was you will, you can put stuff into your container, but you can't pour it out.
Because emotions are weakness.
I mean, that was steeped in that in the Midwest.
Right.
Because like I said, men don't cry.
If anything makes the mistake of coming out, it's shamed right back into that container.
And so that there was a dearth of that right off the bat.
And then of course, the physical standards, you had to be tough.
You had to be strong.
You had to be able to withstand, you know, all these terrible things.
And then, you know, tactically, it was very competitive physically and tactically to,
you had to, that's how you showed your worth.
You didn't show your worth by being able to deal with anything sort of mentally healthfully.
You just had to, as long as you were tactically sound, as long as you were physically strong,
then you were, that was it.
That's all you needed.
I heard you talking, I wish I could remember the podcast now.
I think it was the, is it the LAO podcast?
Dave is the host, I forget his last name.
Anyway, and you were talking about being in, not corrections, I forget the term you used,
but I remember that when in California,
In the custodial setting, yes.
Yeah, so is that, because I know, this was LA and a lot of the other counties, you had
to do kind of corrections first before you were put on the street.
Is that the model that you entered?
Yes, because when we first, when I first started, it was with the Alameda County Sheriff's Department
and that was in the custodial setting.
It was in North County Jail in Oakland.
And at the time, I was like, okay, that's great.
As long as at some point down the road, I'm going to get out on patrol, because that's
really where I wanted to be.
And I realized, so that's the reason that I went from Alameda County Sheriff's over
to Hayward is because I wanted to be out on the street, especially after 9-11, that I
wanted to be the person that caught the next person to try to do that.
Right?
So I did the whole, all the anti-terrorism stuff, crime scene tech, vehicle inspection,
anything I could do that was street level to be able to catch that.
Because I remember seeing a documentary that said that officers had pulled over the 9-11
hijackers, but because it was pre-Department Homeland Security time where they basically
didn't have all the information, all the agencies weren't talking with one another and that
one sort of got by on them.
And then I was like, oh no, we can never let that happen again.
So I wanted to try to have all the knowledge in that particular thing.
What were some of the elements about the corrections side that then served you well when you got
on the street?
Well, it was definitely the situation where the rose-colored glasses came off pretty quick.
Right?
Because I didn't have much exposure in any way up to that point.
Right?
It's where I saw a lot of my firsts.
Right?
I saw my first murder, I saw dead body, the sexual assault, all this kind of stuff.
And it was like my eyes become like, you know, like that holy shit, but it can't be this.
It's just got to be, uh-huh, uh-huh.
You just got to keep the mask on.
Right?
And so what that taught me was that you had to keep your guard up because you never knew
when somebody was going to basically be your friend in one second and try to, you know,
punch you in the face or stab you in the back, literally stab you in the back the next second.
When you look back now at that, or if you look at our kind of corrections model at the
moment now with this kind of psychologist lens, king for a day, what would you do differently?
And the reason I asked this, I've had people on the show, for example, prison governors
from Norway, very, very different model, Bastogh, and their whole kind of ethos is let's take
these men and women when they put them into communities.
So it's a community of housing.
They lost their freedom.
They're in prison, but they're on this island called Bastogh off Oslo.
They cook, they clean, they go to school, they go to work.
And so the whole point is that they are going to move in.
I think it's 95% of all incarcerated men and women will move back into your street at some
point.
So let's make them, you know, let's rehabilitate them as much as we can.
So their recidivism rate is the lowest in the world.
When you look now, understanding just mental health in general, and obviously this impact
on violence and gang membership and some other things, king for a day, what would you do?
If anything at all, what would you change as far as our kind of, you know, correction
system at the moment?
Well that's a very good question because back then the system was still ludicrously broken
because the overpopulation and the staff being insufficient to be able, it wasn't like there
were programs in place.
I would say that there needs to be definitely a more robust type of integration process,
right?
And the thing that they're doing now is they're basically just kind of throwing them all in
there like cattle and then we can't be surprised when they do that and then they end up creating
communities of power inside the custodial setting where they're the powerful ones, where
the people who are watching them or guarding them or whatever, they're not the highest
on the food chain, right?
And so until we find a way to sufficiently reduce that population, it's going to be that
way.
And the problem is when I say sufficiently reduce that population, I'm not suggesting
that we need to make it easier for people to get out.
I'm saying that we are getting to a point now where it's so overpopulated and under
guarded that all we can do is just basically try to survive from day to day.
Well, they're better at surviving than we are at living in and monitoring that system.
So I would say, I mean, if there was any way that we could implement the system about which
you spoke, yes, there does need to be more a type of community integration situation,
but the problem with that is that if you, a lot of the people, what they're learning
or the things that they're learning inside of a custodial setting aren't things that
are translatable outside.
They're basically just learning how to be better criminals inside and then going outside
and going, oh man, I can run the joint here because I'm better at survival than everybody
I'm going to be living around, right?
So if you say, if you want me to snap my fingers and make it better, I would say, can we move
everybody over to that country or create a line that cycles through that so that they
learn that?
And it's ridiculous, I know, but the idea is that the system as a whole is broken and
it needs to be changed 100%.
Problem is there's not a one day fix of that.
It would have to be integrated very slowly and it just seems to be going, instead of
that, if we integrate it slowly, we'd be able to do it, it would slowly get better.
Problem is it's slowly getting worse because more people are coming in, less people are
guarding them and all this kind of stuff.
And so there's a breaking point at some point.
I'm just kind of sitting back waiting for it to happen.
Yeah.
I can agree more and what was interesting is during COVID, how miserable people were
being locked in their own apartments with their freedom somewhat, but that shows and
what happened, everyone divided.
Do you want a mask?
You're not a mask, vaccine?
No.
I mean, it was literally, it was crips and bloods for influenza.
It was insane.
That's right.
But this is what's crazy is of course, it's not just the prisons.
We have to go into the community.
And I've said this since it's my personal opinion, the war on drugs, the prohibition
is 80 plus year, a longitudinal study that has shown to be an epic failure because a
resting addicts is not the solution.
You look at other countries that do it, at Portugal and Switzerland, they've shown, they've
got the blueprint of how you, of course, hunt down smugglers and dealers, but addicts, you
put them through addiction counseling and job creation and mental health counseling
and housing programs and get them on their feet.
And now they're not draining taxes, they're earning taxes.
So it's not just the prisons, but it has to be part of the conversation.
Well they're dealing with the symptoms and the things that happens as a result of this
brokenness.
Instead of trying to deal from the top down, they're basically just dealing with symptoms,
trying to say, well, we need to make it harsher.
The penalty is harsher.
It's like, you can make the penalties harsher.
It's just not going to do anything.
It's not going to change it the way you think it's going to, because it's going to have
to start, like I said, it's going to have to start from the, it's, I hate to be cliche,
but it's top down and inside out, not outside in.
So absolutely.
Well, one more thing on the correction side and then we'll progress to the street.
But I think this, and again, I'm, you know, career firefighter, paramedic, so never been
in law enforcement, certainly never been in corrections apart from to take patients out
of them.
But what seems to be apparent to me is you've got these men and women that are incarcerated
in these prisons and jails, but the guards are exposed to the same conditions.
So they're working 12 hours.
They've got sleep deprivation.
They don't see daylight.
So talk to me about the kind of impact of that job on you physically and mentally while
you were doing that.
That was, that was really tough because the majority of the time, the majority of the
time, not only in custodial setting, but also on patrol was spent on the midnight shift,
which your body is not that it took a serious toll, really changed the, the, just the interior
of me because having to, you know, wake up when the, when the sun was going down and
go to sleep on the sun was coming up, it, it, you know, had the blackout curtains and,
and kind of trying to trick your body into getting rest wasn't very good.
Not to mention the fact that the majority of the time that you spend there in this sort
of a directorial type of setting, meaning you do this and you do this and you do this
and then you come home, you're, you're exhausted, you're dealing with the people that, that
love you, but then you're, you know, end up being the same sort of person that you're,
you are there at home and does it work?
It absolutely does not work.
And it, and it had, and it takes a toll.
Right.
So there was definitely a lot of drinking, a lot of stuff like that because, you know,
you want, because, you know, the people listened to me more at work than they did at home,
but then I really want to, when I realized that that's, you know, I was trying to, you
know, you've heard the term that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Right.
And so I was using a hammer and it wasn't, it wasn't working on the people that love
me.
Yeah.
I noticed family and a wife, children don't take to you just barking commands to do what
I say over here, getting this room.
Well then talk to me about a transition in the street.
What was that first experience like?
And then were there any speciality units that you joined?
Well, so when we first went over, one of the things that sort of highlighted that I, that
I can look at with, you know, hindsight now, getting out on the street, I was like, okay,
this is great.
I was, it was when I went through FTO, I struggled through FTO because there was always somebody
right next to you that basically scrutinized your behavior, which I get, I understand that,
but it got a lot easier once I finally made the transition and started doing it on my
own.
It was that, it was that it was the person, what I didn't realize at the time was obviously
that person's specifically trying to poke, poke, poke, poke, poke to keep you, to get
you ready for this type of thing.
You know, get you ready for all the stressors of that.
And there, there, it wasn't, there was no preparation for that.
But one of the, one of the things that I realized that one of the very first, like I'm talking
like right out of the gate, one of the very first dead bodies that I had was there was
one of the things, like I said, I kind of hindsight, there was four things in the nineties
on that particular call, the, the, the temperature outside, the age of the lady, her weight before
she absorbed all the stuff in the bathtub and the thermostat that was turned up.
So she wouldn't be cold when she got out of the bathtub.
Right.
And, and so when one of the things that I noticed is I didn't, I didn't really have
a template for it.
And so when I saw this, it was, it was shocking, but shocking, this is shocking.
You know, this blank face is what shocked look like.
Right.
And so the, the thing that sort of stuck out to me in that particular situation is how
I got, you know, I got to, I got to kudos for doing a good job in the, in that particular
setting.
And I was shocked at how, how professionalism and shock looked like the same thing.
Right.
You know, as long as I maintain this facade, whatever boiling was going on in here was,
you know, it was, it was my problem to deal with.
It wasn't anybody else's.
It was like, if I had a problem with it, I needed to keep it to myself.
Right.
Which is that thing, that, that thing that gets drilled down into you, it's like, you
can be shocked, just don't show it.
It was crazy as well as you hear people that have been struggling.
Because I, when I started doing this, you know, early, early on, I actually got a lot
of phone calls from people originally.
And usually, and ironically, most of them with a shaved head, covered in tattoos, big,
you know, burly dudes, because again, you know, they have this mask, but then I have
this mask and you have this mask.
So we look at each other and go, they're all fine.
Why am I the only one being a pussy?
Why is this bothering me when everyone else is okay?
And then you climb inside one of the other people's heads and they're like, why is everyone
else okay?
Why am I only being, but you realize that everyone actually is going.
You know, obviously at certain degrees, depending on experience and the kind of, you know, the
place that they are in their mind at that moment, but that mask, and I say this all
the time, it absolutely has a place.
You know, if you're going into a gunfight or we're going into a structure fire, you
know, we can't be queening out and running around screaming, you know, we've got a job
to do.
But when you come out and you process the fact that the person and the efficiency that
burnt to death and you had to drag out their body, that you should have a human sadness,
a reaction to that, you know, we just bury that down.
So that mask is absolutely essential at times, but it's the yin and the yang.
We've got to allow ourselves to have that empathy and compassion for ourselves as well.
Well, of course you're serving a purpose because you're going to the worst situation in some
people's lives.
And for you, it's a Tuesday, right?
But that implies that if you can't, you know, this mentality that we can't let it out here
during this particular situation because we have a job to do, unfortunately bleeds over
to the time where it's like, okay, time for you to deal with it.
And you're like, no, no, I must be okay.
Because to show anything like that, right?
And the way I try to explain it to folks is like, you've seen the World's Strongest Man
competition, right?
Oh, yeah, many times.
Obviously.
Okay, right.
So, biggest people in the world, strongest people in the world, lifting world records
amounts of weight for world records amounts of times.
When they finally put that weight down, does that mean that they're weak?
Or does it mean it was just time to put it down, right?
And then I kind of switch over to, you know, you remember the first time you worked out,
when you worked out, when you left, did you still today have a dumbbell like hanging around
your waist from that workout?
And it's like, no, of course not, because you allowed yourself to put that weight down,
leave, come back in and try again another day, right?
But with this type of stuff, you're like, as soon as I saw that thing, and it melted
me on the inside, and then I found out that nobody else was affected by it.
And I just said, well, I guess I got to hold that weight forever then, because that's what
I signed up for.
You got to like that.
It's a great analogy, because if you pick the weight up and then give yourself ample
rest and recovery, i.e. processing it, then you do develop resilience, you come back a
little bit stronger, if you sleep.
That's right.
All right, well, then what about career calls?
As you progress through your time on the street, what were some of the things that were memorable
for you?
Well, that first one, the thing I didn't tell you about that first one is that this little
apartment that she was in, the coroner couldn't get the gurney back there, so they just brought
the bag back and they set it.
And she was in the bathtub and she had rigored up a little bit.
And like I said, she was 90 pounds on her driver's license, but she had absorbed all
the water.
And so when they picked her up and put her in the bag, she went everywhere.
And everything came out.
And in my mind, I'm like...
And so the reason I highlight that particular one is because throughout the time that I
was there, there were these oh shit moments that are like logos to each one of these things
that happened.
And so I saw somebody get eaten by their dog.
I saw lots of murders, some suicides that I'll never...
Murder suicide I'll never be able to forget.
There was a 19 year old that ended up...
Was arranged marriage and she hung herself with the scarf that her fiance had given her
because he had broken up with her and her life was over.
And it's those images that are just sort of branded into your head where I'm like...
That you think, well, for somebody, for each one of those people, it was the most impactful
sending their life off in a trajectory.
And for everybody that does the job, there's that.
And then the next week there was this and then the week after that there was this.
There were some of the most, some of the biggest, most impactful things were the ones where
at the time I just sort of took a snapshot of it and then it wasn't until after I looked
back on it and through an emotional lens and went, oh my gosh, I can't believe that something
like that happened.
And then it's...
So you have the moment that it happens and then you have the sort of restamp when you
look at it through a different lens and go and try to think of the enormity of being
the person in the situation to which that thing is happening.
And so that got to be kind of overwhelming because I didn't know how to deal with all
that stuff.
And like I said, I was drinking pretty heavily and not dealing with it really well.
And of course, trying to protect my family by telling them I'm fine and just sort of
holding on to this myself, not realizing the whole time it was tearing a swath for me.
Had you already lost your mother by this point or did that come during your time on the street?
That came in my time during the street.
That was 20 years ago, 2004.
And it was actually about four years into being on the street, the two-year custodial
setting and then four years on the street.
And so when my mom said she had cancer, we went through that whole process and it was,
obviously it was the first time she told me she had cancer that was really impactful.
And then it would go away, come back, go away and come back and then come to find out that
towards the end in 2004, it was sort of like, you need to get here.
She's about to die.
And I drive out from California out to Oklahoma and that.
And the thing that I had a hard time adjusting to is this idea like, I'm a man.
I'm this big tough cop and I've been to all these terrible things.
But the person that was sitting in the room at the time that happened wasn't the big tough
cop.
It was the 13-year-old who used to own this room that she's dying in and sort of taking
it in that way.
But trying to just brush it off my shoulder like it's nothing.
And it's like, wait a minute, this is a person who's one of my best friends and there's not
a damn thing I can do about it.
It was going from the person being outside having to sort of manage the chaos to being
the person inside going, now what do I do?
What the hell am I supposed to do with this?
And I really struggled with that one because the summer...
There's a story that I don't tell very often.
I've written about it just because cathartically you've got to get it out.
But the summer of that same year, I'm in a bad way.
I'm just in a real bad way.
I'm sitting up in my bedroom just kind of contemplating the world, drinking and just
getting chewed up by it.
And I'm sitting there staring out the window, drunk off my ass.
And I look and at the time my four-year-old son just happened to be walking by and I'm
like, hey buddy, what's going on?
He comes in and kind of bebops in like it's nothing because he's four years old.
The world hasn't happened to him yet.
And I snatch him up like I'm kidnapping him practically and I sit him down and I'm sitting
there talking to him and I'm telling him about this teddy bear that I had when I was a kid.
And I go into this description about all the texture of the teddy bear, how much I miss
it and all this kind of stuff.
And I'm sure my slurred words are just coating the back of his neck.
And I'm trying to hold on to him literally and metaphorically in this process.
And finally he kind of wriggles out of my grasp and takes off and I'm like, oh great.
In my head I'm thinking, that's just another person that can't handle what it is that I'm
trying to do, really feeling sorry for myself.
And I just kind of go back and staring out the window and drinking a couple of minutes
later I look and he's standing at the door and he's got his chin down like this and he's
standing at attention and I noticed he's got something behind his back and I was like,
hey buddy, what's going on?
He runs over to me and he takes what's behind his back and pushes it right into my gut.
And it was his teddy bear.
And what I realized then was I was busted.
I was really busted.
And it took me a while, I felt so much shame for that.
Nobody in the house deserved what was happening to them.
I didn't think I deserved it either, right?
But I didn't know how to process it, right?
And so I felt even more sorry for myself, certainly shame for taking it out on them,
and then but also really happy that he sort of recognized that I was struggling and wanted
to try to help.
He's four years old, right?
I mean, that's for him to do that was really cool.
And I look back on that and still with a little bit of shame, but obviously, you know, very,
very happy that he was that he sort of absorbed that and was trying to help his dad.
That really kind of reminds me of something that I say a lot now, but it reminds me of
it because I've heard over and over and over again.
And I just don't think that people hear this perspective.
But when you think about 20 years ago, as you were talking about, you know, the rubs
and dirt in a generation, the way that suicide was discussed was it was cowardly, it was
selfish.
How could you think of the family?
And then you hear in my case, hundreds of people that have been right at that point,
some of them have gone through with their attempts and thank God, I'm able to talk
to them because they survived.
But over and over again, there's this reoccurring theme of burden and shame and guilt.
And you don't hear that, you know, this, and I think that people don't understand you talk
about alcohol.
If you take that perfect storm of unaddressed childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, the horrors
that we see at work, alcohol, side effects of, you know, psych meds, the people that
take them on, organizational stress and or betrayal, and you combine it, you know, then
it becomes a perfect storm that literally miswires the brain and this reality shifts.
And over and over again, I hear from these people who were absolutely at that point,
that they truly believed that they were the reason for their family's pain.
And that at that moment made suicide courageous and selfless from an occupation that decided
they would die for a stranger.
Of course, they're going to die for their loved ones.
So talk to me about that.
Where did that darkness take you?
Because when you truly believe that you are the source of the family's pain, that reframes
everything, even though through a healthy mind, it makes no sense.
Well, it's unfortunate, but I know what the barrel of my gun tastes like, too.
And I'm looking at this today.
I don't even know how it didn't happen.
Right.
But having the perspective of that death gave me a little insight.
So I use a lot of analogy and metaphor to try to help people understand what's kind
of happening.
And from that comes this sort of understanding.
And one of the main things that I tell folks is that, first of all, I'm not a scientist,
scientific experiment perhaps, but not a scientist.
I come from caveman stock.
And so I'm trying to basically translate the thing that you go through to this sort of
caveman mentality so that the person who is a caveman understands it.
And so one of the things that I tell them, I go, so this is your brain right here.
This is your brain.
This is my brain.
This is everybody's brain.
If you exist on this grain of sand that's hurtling through space right now, then this
is your brain.
If this is your brain, then that's that first little peanut that you get whenever you're
first born.
Right.
Fight, flight, faint or freeze.
For first responders, it's only one thing.
It's fight, fight, fight or fight.
Right.
And if you imagine this thing like a container, you get this container whenever you're born
and whether you have good parents, bad parents, no parents, love and support, abuse and neglect,
or a laundry list of trauma from a whole entire career, it dictates how big that container
is going to be and how often you're allowed to pour it out.
Right.
Well, if you then you get older and you develop your higher functions, logic, reasoning, stuff
like that.
Right.
The tucked way deep into the core of this thing is fight, fight, fight or fight.
That's that foundational stuff.
Right.
Well, the reason that SWAT guys and military guys and everybody in this thing train over
and over and over and over again is because whenever this thing turns on, all of this
stuff turns off.
Right.
So they're really mad and done something stupid and then said, Oh, why did I do that?
I can't believe I did that.
That's this portion of your brain casting judgment on this portion of your brain for
doing the only thing it knows how to do.
And that's react.
It doesn't have eyeballs, doesn't have ears.
It doesn't ruminate contemplate or investigate.
It just reacts.
Right.
The gator at the gator at the watering hole and about to get the zebra.
You don't hear the zebra go, Hey, let's talk about this as they're running away.
They're they're they're basically just reacting.
Right.
And so in those moments where you think you're going to die or where you're getting into
these high stress situations, this turns on and all of this turns off.
Right.
And so the idea is the only goal whenever this thing is on is to turn it off.
Right.
It's meant to find that spot where you where you're not feeling threatened.
Right.
Well, if you're if you're told your whole life that you're not allowed to to feel that
to process any of the stuff inside this container, then it gets filled up to about 99 percent
and goes off like this or stays on 24 7 and basically wears your ass out.
Right.
And so the idea is to remember that is your only goal is to find out am I in this mindset
where I'm like fight, fight, fight, fight, defend, defend.
And most people you find that, you know, we try to we try to make life decisions based
from this mentality and it just it does not work that way.
All right.
And so the reason I say that is because like I said before, I use a lot of analogy and
metaphor.
So I'm going to use one that I think will kind of help help you and hopefully other
people understand what what it means when you get to that point of desperation, what
kind of what's happening.
Right.
So have you ever been to like a county fair or anything like that?
Yes.
OK.
So again, like I said, this applies to everybody, whether you're whether you're man, woman,
however you identify, wherever it is you live, it doesn't matter.
It applies to that thing you are before you're anything else.
And that's that is a human being, that thing that we all are first.
Right.
Then we get all this other stuff.
Right.
Well, our humanity.
So I'm telling you about the fair.
What do you think of whenever you think of the fair?
The Ferris wheel.
The first Ferris wheel, funnel case, corn dogs, stuff like that.
Games, all this kind of stuff.
Right.
Well, if you ever remember the the game where the where the horses are racing each other
and it's like a it's like a water gun.
But you you're in that lane.
It's like the Kentucky Derby type thing.
Absolutely.
OK.
So imagine that every human being on the planet has four horses.
Then those four horses are responsible, the team responsible for pulling your life.
Right.
You, me, everybody, everybody who's listening.
OK.
There's the physical horse.
That's the container that you came in.
Right.
That's whether you're tall or short or wide or thin or you're sick all the time or Jim
Bro.
It's the spectrum on which everybody falls somewhere.
Right.
Then there's the intellectual horse.
Book smart or street smart.
Somewhere in between a little bit of both social horse.
Right.
Loner.
Cool kid in the group somewhere in between a little bit of both.
Then there's the emotional horse.
OK.
Bang.
The gun goes off.
It starts.
And again, it starts in childhood.
So there's things that happen in childhood.
Right.
For me, speaking specifically for myself, we go the horses take off.
The team takes off to try to figure out who you are.
You're going to be the athlete.
You're going to be the brainiac.
You're going to be the party animal.
A little bit of both.
Right.
Nobody wants to be the emotional one, especially.
And I know that was, you know, emotions are weakness.
So why would I?
Why would I let this one come out?
We're going to tuck this one back behind the gate.
We're going to weld the gate shut.
And when things get difficult, here's how we're going to handle it.
We're going to either fight.
We're going to work out.
We're going to work overtime.
We're going to intellectualize.
Right.
How many guys, you know, that can solve everybody else's problems but their own.
Right.
Absolutely.
And the overtime as well.
Overtime is just a jump in on that.
The number of people that don't identify working as filling that void as a coping mechanism
because they're deliberately choosing to be away from the very thing that was most important
to them, which is their family.
Right.
And they know that, but they're too afraid to deal with this portion of what they need
to deal with.
Right.
Because if you're told your whole entire life, you're not allowed to deal with it, then you
got to lean into the other parts.
Right.
Socially, what do we do?
We go and we hang out with our pals and we drink and we talk about the things that have
happened in the day.
And the worst part about this one is, you know, the choir practice, you go and you talk
with your pals and you say, hey, you know, that was a pretty crazy call.
We just went to that where the kid death was.
And then they're like, and you look at them and they're like, whatever.
Right.
Because they're having the same problem you are.
They don't want to deal with it.
They don't want to show anything.
They're keeping that facade up.
And then you look and see their reaction and go, well, that boiling in my gut must just
be the problem that I have.
Right.
It's not that this thing is normal, is a normal reaction by a normal person.
Right.
But what you don't realize is that all this, there's stuff being stacked up in this lane.
It's just being stacked up.
Right.
It's like a Mount Everest pile of shit of all the terrible things you see in and all
the ways you don't want to deal with it and all this kind of stuff.
And what you don't realize is that these three end up becoming just jacked.
They are yoked from all, from their use.
And they're like, if things get tough on this, how am I going to deal with it?
And this one on the other hand is like a doe-eyed baby walking on stilts that doesn't want to
have any, doesn't ever want to come out.
Because the idea of dealing with that and these three are bullies.
Right.
Because if this one ever comes out, there's that feeling in your gut, that shame goes,
how dare you?
You can't come out.
We'll take care of this.
If I want to deal with something, they're trying to deal with it emotionally.
I mean, intellectually, they're like, yes, I know.
I understand that I need help and I need to do this, but they're not actually processing
anything.
Right.
So this, this source right here is basically saying, don't come out.
I don't want you to come out.
I'll understand it for you.
Right.
You just, you just stay back over there.
Well, eventually that Mount Everest pile of crap, something happens, whether it gets something
cannonballs into that pile or it's a piece of paper.
It doesn't matter if the container is full.
It rolls down and kicks that gate open.
And this doe-eyed baby comes out, looks at this pile of stuff and goes, uh-uh, I can't
deal with this too much.
I can't even hold up my own weight, much less the weight of everything I've ignored up to
this point.
Right.
And so if you think about it like that, it makes sense why some of these guys are taking
their life because they're like, this isn't working.
This isn't working.
And when I let this one out through a gauntlet of shame and guilt and through everybody else
I'm thinking is judging me about dealing with this, this Mount Everest pile of crap, you
go, well, obviously the only option is for me to take my own life because I can't, I
can't deal with what I'm, I can't handle what I'm dealing with.
Absolutely.
I think that's the thing with, with this, you know, the shame, the guilt, and obviously
the, the sense of burdensome is you don't really hear that discussed.
And I would argue that, you know, one of the things that needs to be front and center,
one of the biggest red flags, whether you see it within yourself or you hear it through
one of your loved ones or coworkers or whatever it is, is, you know, if you truly start believing
that you are the issue, that you are the problem, that's a massive sign to go get help because
that's, I think is where there's that switch.
And I've talked about this a lot.
We had an absolutely horrendous case in Florida.
I think it was like six or eight months ago now, a couple, both law enforcement officers,
both young, they just had a little boy or a little girl.
I forget which gender it was.
The husband takes his own load with her boyfriend, excuse me, takes his own life.
And about seven days later, the girlfriend does.
So now this infant has left on its own healthy mind goes, what were they thinking?
It's so selfish.
How could you?
But at that moment, clearly there was this absolute miswiring and the shift where they
must have believed that this little child they just brought into the world, you know,
that that child was, was worthy to have someone better than themselves.
They were better off without us.
Exactly.
So I think that needs to be front and center as well.
Well, the thing is too, that they make that assessment from here and everybody that views
that assessment is made from here.
And they go, well, how could they possibly have done that?
It's like, well, if you get into this mindset, things, silly things like that are illogical,
make a lot more sense.
Absolutely.
Well, what about your journey?
You talked about, you know, having tasted the, you know, the taste of the barrel that
obviously I'm assuming along with that moment with your little boy and then sitting there
holding your mother's hand when she passed, which I did with my grandfather with cancer,
you know, all these, these elements you're in these deep kind of pits now, how do you
start getting yourself out and what does that toolbox start to look like that works for
you Don specifically?
Well, so it was, it took a while because my relationship was really suffering.
And my wife can, or my, my, my ex now can attest to the, to the struggles that I went
through in the ways that I wasn't sort of dealing with it.
The part that was probably the toughest was the fact that anybody in my life, I think
they would just be too afraid to sort of confront me about it and say, Hey, you're changing
as a person you're right.
Because because then it would sort of highlight the fact that I'm this busted person, but
it took getting injured to basically really push me down into a hole.
Right?
Because that's when that's when I was more suicidal because the, because being, being
in the job was one thing, but then being on the front lines and then having this injury,
it swallowed me up because I had, because I had no idea, you know, at the time, it felt
like everybody sort of abandoned me.
Right?
And, and so getting the injury and having a couple surgeries and then taking pills and
getting addicted to pills and, and doing that and alcohol at the same time, it got really
bad.
And that's that, like I said, that's the time when I, when I actually was thinking about
ending it all.
And actually, thankfully it was the deeply seeded idea that that killing yourself was,
was a sin, right?
Because I was raised Southern Baptist in the Midwest and that's, you know, that's a everybody
but us was going to hell type of mentality.
But that was very, there was a deep sense of guilt if I had done that and the people
I'd be sort of leaving behind.
And so the only reason I didn't was because of that thing that was drilled down pretty
deeply.
But when I, when I went out on that, that particular injury, it was very isolating and
I, and I couldn't understand why, why the majority of the people that I'd worked with,
nobody would, nobody would contact me, find out I'm doing stuff like that.
And it made a real profound sense of bitterness that I had a hard time dealing with because
I couldn't figure out why somebody wouldn't, you know, they weren't support their brother
and this, this family, this family, and I'm going to air quote the hell out of that because
what I, but what I realized in a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine who didn't
abandon me, helped me understand that a little bit better whenever he said, imagine you're
on the front lines of a war and you're in the trenches, right?
You and something happens and you get injured and you get taken off the front line.
It's not because the people at the front line don't want to do that.
They're still in the war trying to deal with that particular situation.
And what I, what I also realized additionally is that I was having to deal with this portion.
I was having to deal with the emotional portion of it.
And I was, I was disappointed that the people with whom I worked didn't have the capacity
to deal with, right?
So I know that there's some people that kind of said, I don't want to go over there and
deal with that because I know it's just going to be him telling me how bad everything is
and how much he's struggling and stuff like that.
And if you imagine these are like muscles, right?
I'm asking, I'm trying to make this stronger when I feel really weak.
And then asking other people who've never even let their horse out to say, hey, help
me deal with this.
And when they kind of turn, they turn their back on me, it felt like, it felt like a betrayal,
right?
I had a hard time dealing with that betrayal, right?
It wasn't until after I got all the way out of the, of the job that I, that, and deal
with that bitterness of that and sort of get that separation that I realized how ingrained
that mentality actually was.
And so when I finally decided to actually become a therapist, it was sort of like, well,
I got to deal with my own shit first because that stuff I can't, I can't, you know, I,
what I would be doing if I just became a therapist and didn't deal with it is intellectualizing
everything and completely avoiding all the stuff that I needed to deal with by myself.
And it was a real, real struggle because I didn't, because like I said, if these, if
these things are muscles, you're basically asking to put weight on this thing when all
three of these are really strong.
And you can't, you want to rely on these things to try to deal with your struggles and the
deal with the stuff emotionally was, was, it had to go through, through this idea that
I wasn't allowed to, that there was something wrong with me or like all those, those, the
stigma mentality of, of those hurdles trying to cross into that area to say, well, what
if, what if I've not broken?
What if, what if this thing that I'm having is a normal human being reacting normally
to these extraordinary circumstances?
And I had used that what if scenario to go, oh yeah, I guess I am a human being.
I mean, the strongest people in the world, it can be the strongest people in the world,
doesn't negate the fact that there's an emotional component that everybody has that, that you
can avoid it if you want, you can live your own life without avoiding it.
But you can't be surprised that when you go to put weight on it, that it's not there to
pick it up if you've never used it.
Absolutely.
The, the mental health impact of an injury, I think is another thing that's under discussed.
I just had a friend of mine who's a firefighter and an athlete and he tore a bicep and he
just kind of hit a wall.
And then, you know, he was kind of like, you know, frustrated and confused about it.
I'm like, dude, I've heard this so many times and I had a back injury that took me out for
six months.
And you know, it is, you've got that organizational betrayal where there's, you know, for example,
leaders in that, that genuinely are just not, you know, uncaring about the welfare of the
people, but even the brothers and sisters that you have in uniform.
I agree completely.
Some, you know, may not care as much as they should, but others are simply, I mean, they're
in the meat grinder.
You know, a lot of them don't have the capacity to think.
And even the people that we lose, a lot of the widows say to me, look, everyone was there
the first week and then no one was there, you know, and this is the point.
So I think as a side note, getting people to actually be assigned to check in, because,
you know, again, it's that feeling of organizational betrayal, this tribe that you said, I will
die for these men and women in uniform, and the moment you get hurt, they're nowhere to
be found.
And I hear this over and over and over again.
And I don't think most of it is from malice.
I mean, the more, you know, strained we become with this recruitment crisis, I would argue
the lower amount of camaraderie we're forging because, you know, you should have a high
bar and shared suffering and, you know, a sense of achievement after probationary year
that you've earned that spot.
And I think that forges people together.
But I mean, I've had great stories.
My first department, Hialeah, one of their guys, I think he got hit on a road accident
while they were working it and was really badly hurt.
And they re-roofed his house while he was in hospital and surprised him.
The next department I went for, very similar incident, another guy got hit on the road
and they, I forget what happened with his house, but they completely redid his house
and he came out of hospital.
That is the brotherhood and sisterhood.
But I feel like, yeah, you know, we kind of forget that.
Yes, you know, my back was injured and yes, it was horrendous not being a firefighter,
you know, and losing that identity and tribe and purpose, but it's losing the people.
You know, it's not, it's feeling like you completely disregarded and forgotten.
That's truly detrimental.
It's not the pain, it's not the surgery.
It's that emotional piece.
That's 100% right.
Yeah, that, I didn't want to admit that I had a problem at the time.
Of course, I still don't want to admit that I had a problem, but I had a problem.
And whether I want, and so having the stigma of it, but then also not being honest with
it myself, you know, it's going to create this distorted reality of what's really going
on.
Absolutely.
So you talked about it being a struggle, you know, you transition into the mental health
space.
Obviously you want to, you know, you want to be part of the solution.
I think lived experience is a big part of that.
So what were the tools then that you started finding work for you?
Because I think this is another irresponsible thing that happens with some organizations
like, oh, EMDR is a fix all for everything or this therapy or this therapy.
And what I'm learning now is yours might be psychedelics, talk therapy and equine therapy,
or it might be canines and, you know, a military retreat and something else.
So what did you start realizing work for you?
And then that's transition into you actually becoming the mental health professional.
Well, obviously staying physically active as an outlet was pretty important.
And then going to therapy myself, the thing I found most difficult about going to therapy
myself was that, so when I was the police officer before did the whole anti-terrorism
thing and one of the things that they taught us was how to read people's facial expressions
and body language for basically whenever somebody is telling a lie, right?
So I mean, as a therapist now, I just tell you, you know, you can lie all you want.
I'm just not doing it to me, right?
And so the thing is that I had a hard time with was being able to find somebody that
number one could take the stories because there wasn't like there was something that
I was going, hey, I want to find a therapist who's a first respond, who was a former first
responder.
It's like, there's nobody out there.
There was nobody out there, especially at the time.
And if there were, they were either hundreds of miles away or didn't have any available
availability whatsoever because their schedule was so full, right?
And so being able to find that outlet was difficult because I could talk with somebody
for a little bit, tell them a couple of stories and then realize that I'm melting their brain
with some of the content that I have pulling back and then trying again with somebody else
and pulling back and trying again with somebody else.
And I found that I was very much in the infancy of a person doing what I was doing.
Meaning first responder slash therapist and trying to find somebody that I felt like actually
listen that that could actually listen and take what I was doing because I was so scrutinizing
with my own vulnerable part of myself that being able to talk with somebody and then
see when they sort of gave up or checked out and knowing it before, before they even were
willing to admit it was like, well, this is kind of tough because I still have this stuff
back here that I needed to tell somebody about.
But it's almost becomes almost becomes careless at saying, okay, I've got this story where
you find the three year old in the freezer and this story where you find the where the
lady is eating and I can go through all this stuff just by bang, by bang, by bang.
And I started doing the MDR, which did help a lot.
But what I, the more than anything else, I found that that on any given day, there's
going to need to be something, whatever, whatever the thing is that helps you sort of process
this in a healthy way.
Like you said, there's so many things out there now that are available to be able to
deal with this, but not there's not a one size fits all type of situation because because
one of the some of the things I found worked, worked only because of the person that was
delivering it.
Right.
So I was able to believe the person that I'm talking with is helping me deal with it as
opposed to going EMDR.
Well, EMDR with this person is going to be different than EMDR with this person.
And the first time I did EMDR, I didn't I didn't feel like it was very effective because
I didn't think that the person I think that the person was kind of phoning it in.
Right.
So I became very scrutinizing, much like every other first responder out there in in the
genuineness of the person with whom I'm and that was really what it was about.
It's just being able to find the person that genuinely wanted to be there to help and knowing
that they're the person that wanted to be there to help and just sort of being content
with not dumping it all on one person.
Right.
And finding and sort of just kind of letting out a little bit along the way.
And it just got better and better as it went along.
Do I still deal with stuff?
Of course I do.
I'm a human being just like everybody else.
Well, you touched on I think this is an important point as well.
I've heard a lot of EAP horror stories, you know, counselors being sent, assuming responders
being sent to the wrong person.
And what really is sad is those are the ones I've heard.
How many have we not heard?
Because that was the final nail in the coffin.
I went to see someone, they started crying or they told me to get out, you know, and
so I must be completely broken.
I'm just going to go, you know, that's the extra bit of burden and shame that they they
needed to get to that point.
So talk to me about that for a second.
You know, now as we sit here in 2024, how does someone listening online, because obviously
people are listening from all over the world, how do they find or increase the likelihood
of finding the right fit of counselor so they're not having to go through six, eight people
to find someone who actually can, you know, is culturally competent?
Well, that's one of the one of the main parts of this message that I'm trying to say is
that we feel this sense of obligation.
And I remember some of the first therapists that I went to feeling this idea like I once
I started talking with them, whether I liked them or not, I had to stay with them or I
had to had to engage in this process.
And I was like, I didn't get a good, you know, you can kind of get a good vibe.
And you know, first responders are pretty good with that initial vibe.
And so finding somebody that being able to actually engage with somebody, make that initial
assessment and find out whether they're going to be the person.
And then honestly, and it's really tough to have the courage to go, you're not the person
for me, right?
Because you feel like it's personal.
It feels like you're sort of insulting them.
You're not trying to insult them, but you're also unfamiliar with the process and and taking
that initial sense of vulnerability and not interpreting it as you're the you're the reason
that it's not working or why it's not coming out.
So that's you make these extrapolations that that if I go into this person and they recoil
in horror, then it's my fault, right?
It's sort of like, no, you just haven't found the right person yet.
And that's that's kind of the whole idea of this.
This mission that that I talk about, right, is is sort of being able to sort of stand
up for yourself and and talk and find when you first connect with somebody, if they're
not the person for you, they're not the person for you.
I don't take that stuff personally, because I realize that we're all kind of working on
a on a different level and from different arenas.
And so just being able to sort of start out the process with the right glasses, right?
That's ultimately what it comes down to is because if you if you have a bad taste in
your mouth for what therapy is and how it's going to help you and stuff like that, then
you have best GPS in the world.
But if you start in the wrong place, you're going to end up in the wrong place.
And so ultimately, you're trying to go, what do I need to find at the very beginning?
What's that?
What's the thing that I what's the thing that I need?
Well, a lot of people don't have any clue what they need.
And what they need initially is to be able to go, do I feel OK with the person with whom
I'm speaking?
Do I do I do I feel like there am I able to make this personal assessment from the inside
out that when I give them the most vulnerable part of myself, that I'll be OK?
Because that's really what it's about.
You just don't want it.
You don't want to take this thing that's like you've been protecting your whole life, put
it out there and then have somebody go right or have somebody laugh and point right.
Because it's that vulnerable that thing that you don't even want to admit that vulnerability
that you got to kind of put out there and being able to put that out there and go, well,
I'm making this assessment about the person from whom I'm with whom I'm about to tell
the most deepest, darkest parts of myself.
Will I be OK afterward?
Well, it's like you don't have a crystal ball, but you do have the ability to sort of emotionally
say, do I get along with this person enough?
Am I am I do I feel like if I let this stuff out, this person will care for that thing
that's going to come out and not wound me even further?
Because I've noticed a lot of folks that have that come into my practice, they've been to
other places.
They've had that sort of you had a bad taste in my mouth from this previous experience.
And now I'm just I got to the point that's so desperate that I, you know, I reached out
to you and I and I kind of lay part of being able to do it is laying out the truth for
them, letting them know that this isn't an easy process, that you're going to have to
that it's going to feel uncomfortable, that you're going to not be good at it and sort
of explain to you that I explained to them that idea that there's different parts of
yourself trying to basically protect you.
Intellectually you can come into a therapy session and go, yes, I understand exactly
what you're saying and I can and I know I need to do this.
And you walk through this this robotic process.
But then I go, well, yes, that's you're right.
You do understand it intellectually.
But what you're going to have to sort of prepare for is this idea that it's going to feel uncomfortable,
that you're going to be doing things against what this this system that's been in place
to try to protect to protect you.
That doesn't work anymore.
But you got to you got to put some weight on this other stuff.
And you I find that if you prepare in advance with this message.
That it it allows them to kind of start from the right place.
That's really my whole thing, this whole mission, as it were, is making sure that you start
from from the right place.
Right.
And the mission, as I obviously play on words, is you got to acknowledge that something's
going on.
Right.
If you've been depressed for 20 years, it's not who you are.
You've been depressed for 20 years.
Right.
So you got to have to acknowledge that you have to accept the level to which that thing
is negatively affecting your life.
Right.
I only drink a little bit.
Everybody else thinks you're an alcoholic.
Right.
But if it changes in you, it ain't going to change.
And this is the mission right here.
You got to give yourself permission to act on your own behalf.
It's going to be really uncomfortable.
I'm going to tell you, this is going to be really uncomfortable.
You're going to be putting weight on a muscle that hasn't been exercised.
And the other three bully horses are basically going to be telling you, you're such a pussy.
You've got to get that thing back and get back in the gate.
Right.
And you have to acknowledge that it's still got it.
You still got to exercise that muscle.
You got to lean into the idea that, hey, I thought I was going to die.
Hey, that thing I saw really hurt me.
And I couldn't understand what it was I was seeing.
Right.
You basically, part of it is just understanding that when you start accepting that there was
fear that that means you're a human being.
Right.
There's going to be fear.
I thought I was going to die.
I saw something in my own family that I saw on this call and being able to sort of absorb
this idea that, and I didn't have any control over it.
Right.
We're supposed to have this control that extends into these situations.
And when I have these things that goes outside of my control, it's like, oops, that went
against that system I said was never going to happen.
And it did.
Right.
And so you're kind of confronting this idea that you had control over that whole thing.
Right.
One of the main things I talk with folks about is the ABCs.
Right.
A is the event, right, whatever the chronological event is, and first responders have hundreds
of them, if not thousands.
B is the oh shit moment.
And then C is the value statement or the unanswered question.
Why would God do this?
Right.
And so the example I use is I had a conversation with somebody, pulled somebody over for a
traffic stop.
No issue with the person with whom they pulled it over.
They go to write them a ticket, come back in their car.
They're writing the ticket.
They've got their foot sitting outside the door.
The door is open and it's on the freeway.
He's writing his ticket.
And then he looks up in his rear view mirror and he realizes that there's a car bearing
on him going about 90 miles an hour.
It's about to obliterate him.
Right.
And it did.
It messed him up.
He was knocked, tore up, he was physically injured.
Went through this big, huge rehabilitation process and then comes out on the other side.
And then for some reason, when he gets back to work, he can't reengage.
And so the highlight that I make there, obviously, is oh shit moment is that snapshot he took
looking into the rear view mirror, realizing that that thing was about to hit him and there
wasn't a damn thing he could do about it.
Right.
And it was this concrete structure that believed that he'd always be able to do something about
it, no matter what.
Even if it was a flinch in the right direction to kind of dive out of the way, he'd be able
to, but he didn't.
Right.
And so it shattered this thing he thought was going to be there forever.
And what I tell the folks that I come in contact with is when that stuff happens, you got to
admit that it happened, that you were afraid and that it goes against the structure that
you've had built and that you have to rebuild it based on the fact that that thing had actually
happened.
Right.
I talked a fair amount of folks who believed that they were literally going to die.
Like they've had combat vets and stuff like that.
And they have this idea that they have these moments, these oh shit moments where they
think they're going to die.
Right.
Well, we can't be surprised after somebody gets that snapshot moment afterwards where
they start being a little bit more impulsive and a little bit more careless because they
think they're playing on the house's money.
Right.
They think, well, I was supposed to die back there.
Right.
And so you got to be able to talk about how afraid you were.
Well, I wasn't afraid.
Yes you were.
You are.
If you're a human being, you were afraid.
You have to admit that you were afraid and that you didn't have any control over it and
all this kind of stuff.
Right.
And it's that, that just being able to get to that point where you admit that stuff,
a lot kind of allows you to go.
Yes, I was afraid.
And you need to let yourself feel the full fear rather than that, that truncated version
that you, that you felt at the time that that was forced out.
Right.
And just kind of go, yeah, I thought I was going to die.
It's like, okay, yeah, that's, that's what normal human beings feel when somebody's shooting
at them.
Or when you have these things that, that happen that are so severe, they're like flash bangs.
Right.
They, they've so big and you don't have any control over it.
And when you have a mentality that basically says, you've got to be in control of everything
and you've got to, you've got to handle this situation and you've got to, when that stuff
happens, it goes against those internal rules.
We tell ourselves we're going to abide by forever.
Right.
Absolutely.
Well, I want to hit one more area and then we'll go to some closing questions.
You also have got quite a lot of specialties when it comes to, you know, family unit marriage
on that side as well.
So talk to me about the nuances of that, because I mean, a lot of these conversations, when
it comes to mental health, we're talking about the individual.
Let's expand now to the family dynamic.
Well, so what I noticed, or at least the flaws and the mistakes that I made was that communication
is the, is the biggest thing that you can do.
And when I say communication, I'm not talking about how you walk in the front door and you
sit your family down and say, Hey, I just had this terrible thing happen.
And here's the details.
Right.
And because I'm fine is not communication.
Right.
And in this family structure, you have to realize that from the moment you start doing
any type of first responder work, it's going to change you as a person.
That is guaranteed.
Right.
You can be the healthiest person in the world.
You can be the most emotionally healthy person.
And it's still going to change you because you're seeing some terrible things and you're
exposed to some, a lot of high emotion stuff that you don't have control over.
Right.
And so being able to sort of communicate that and say, like, like take, for example, you
come home after a really bad call.
The last thing you want to do is tell everybody that you're fine.
Right.
Because, because if you imagine, well, let's take my, my son and four years old, right.
If I'd had these terrible things happen and I walk in and you know, daddy loves you and
he gives you a hug and all this kind of stuff.
And first language that kids learn is, is body language.
There's no question here.
You can see this far in front of your face, the kids absorbing everything that you're
doing.
Right.
And you come in and you're just coded with tension and all this stuff that you're, that
you're not processing.
And then you come in and your kid says, Hey daddy, what's wrong?
And you're going, Oh, I'm fine.
He's getting this mixed message about, you're basically telling everybody that fine is this
version that you're seeing and it's not fine.
Right.
You got to be able to actually say, I had something very significant happen today.
It was very impactful.
I'm feeling, I'm still trying to process that thing and just being, just being honest with,
with sort of opening up and saying, I had this terrible thing happen.
I'm still trying to understand it.
I need to go and talk to somebody about it, but including them in that communication to
say that these things have happened, not the details of the, you're not trying to, you're
not trying to vicariously traumatize anybody.
You're basically just trying to say, I had this thing happen.
It's a weight that I'm carrying and the, but the weight doesn't have anything to do with
you.
Right.
I want you to know that I care enough about you to tell you that this thing happened,
but also to let you know that if I start to, you're basically trying to, you're trying
to create a communication dialogue that, that allows you to tell them that, that an event
happened, but obviously not the details of the event, but also that this event that happened
may sort of affect me in a way that you, that when you see something, it won't be your fault.
Right.
Cause especially kids, kids think, well, if you tell me, if, if, if you tell me you're
fine and then I still feel uncomfortable and it must be my fault.
Right.
And that's a terrible message to tell them.
You just want to be able to go, I had this thing happen to me.
I'm still trying to process it.
I'm still trying to work on it, but I want you to know that I love you.
I care for you.
And that all this stuff that you, that you, this, this tension that you feel for me is
not, you're not responsible for.
And you gotta be as open as you can about being able to tell somebody like that because,
because in the absence of having an explanation, people will take it upon themselves to say,
well, it must be the something that I'm doing.
It's built into us.
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
Beautiful.
Well, I want to go to some closing questions.
I'm going to be mindful of your time.
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
I don't know if you, you know, Paul Gilmartin's book, if you've seen that one.
I've heard of him.
Yeah.
What's the name of it?
That I think is, but want to say, oh my gosh, I can't remember.
It's a red and white book, emotional support for law enforcement.
Yeah.
And it's, it really is a, it's, it's a very simple texts, meaning it's, it's not super
long and not very complicated, but it does give a good sort of snapshot of what to expect
and how, how, when you have these, you know, traumatizing events on the daily, recognizing
the red flags.
And so, you know, there, you can be the smartest person in the world and recognize all the
red flags, but you still have to be able to get to the start line to, to deal with it,
right?
Giving yourself permission to deal with it.
But just knowing that it's going on and making sure that, that, that knowledge is, is showing
you that it's this thing that you thought was a mystery, isn't a mystery.
It's a reaction, right?
You get a cut on your arm, you feel pain, pain tells your brain that something's wrong
with your arm, right?
Your arm didn't do anything wrong, right?
But if you're starting to feel anxiety and depression and anger and stuff like that,
and it's coming out in your world in a place, in places that it's not, not normally, not,
wouldn't normally, but also are not supposed to, then that's the back part of your brain
telling the front part of your brain that something's wrong, not something's wrong with
you, right?
And addressing that system that says that when this thing happens, it's a symptom of
the thing that's happened to you, not a symptom of the disease that you have, right?
But Gilmarn's book would be one I'd definitely recommend.
Brilliant.
What about documentaries and or films?
Ooh, well, so there's one particular film that when I saw it, it kind of like maybe
it like really plucked the string was End of Watch.
And I don't know what that's that one was a real tough one to watch towards the end,
especially at the time I was I wasn't I'm still kind of trying to deal with stuff.
I would say it's a pretty good look into it, but it's also be cautious because we're still
dealing with PTSD.
That's not the thing that you want to necessarily watch.
You know what, actually, that's a really good question.
I wish I had I wish I'd come more prepared and be able to answer that question.
Yeah, no, one film is great.
Right.
Well, the next question, before we talk about, you know, where people can find you and obviously
your services, what do you do to decompress these days?
Again, staying active, I do.
Recently I've done a lot of I went to a place called Elevate out of Boise and I went to
this.
It's really good, by the way.
And they had all these, you know, float services and red light therapy and and detoxifying,
like physically detoxifying thing, and I find that stuff to be really, really helpful.
I am actually actively looking for a therapist to kind of to catch this phase of what it
is I'm trying to do.
And so my my my recommendation more than anything else is to is to be mindful of the old mindsets
of making sure that I'm not getting into the the same sort of cycles that that that allow
me to hold on to too much weight, because I'll be the first one to tell you, like I
said, I'm a human being like everybody else.
I feel stress.
I feel anxiety.
And sometimes that stuff gets to be a lot too much.
But staying physically active, staying like finding when I'm not, you know, getting into
social settings that might otherwise make me, you know, other sometimes I, you know,
people want to be isolated and they just want to kind of fall back and recoup.
And you're not recouping when you're by yourself.
It's one of those things you got to you got to stay active because you need to be able
one of the main things I think that I do is make sure I'm staying plugged in with other
people to say, hey, you know, what's going on with you?
You're using them as a good barometer and making sure that I'm trying to stay connected
to this idea that when somebody gives me that feedback, they're doing it for me and not
to me.
Right?
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, then where can people find you online and obviously the website for your services?
Well, so if you'll find me on psychology today, it's done with two ends.
Bradley and it's out of Brentwood out of the Northern California Brentwood, not the OJ
Brentwood.
And honestly, I don't I don't market a lot.
I do it because I might my this message I'm trying to do if it were up to me, you know,
I'd do the little men in black pin thing and block out my face because honestly, I'm just
trying to get folks out there.
I don't really market that much.
But I will tell everybody that's listening here, if you're struggling and you're having
a hard time, by all means, reach out.
You can call me, email me therapy with Don at Gmail dot com.
And just you know, like I said, I don't want anybody to have to get to the depth of the
places that I've gotten to or the ones that I've seen the stories on.
It's like, you know, before you go, let's talk.
Right.
Because basically, I don't want anybody to have to carry that weight.
So like I said, I'm not necessarily trying to market myself.
I just want to get the message out there that to give yourself permission to kind of step
into this.
But if you need help with that, then by all means, therapy with Don at Gmail or look on
psychology today, you'll find me beautiful.
Yeah, I don't think you need to market the I think the lack of counselors is outweighed
by the immense need from the first responder community.
So you're an invaluable resource.
So I want to thank you so much, not only for obviously talking about, you know, the psychological
side, but also, again, your own courageous vulnerability and telling your story, because
I think that lived experience and that vulnerability is truly, you know, what joins someone with
that therapist.
They don't have to have this traumatic life.
But as you said, if they're intellect, if they're purely academic, then there's that
disconnect and that can be very dangerous.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thanks for having me, James.
I appreciate you.