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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show former SAS soldier, military advisor to British Secret Service and the man behind
Hawks and co Michael Hawks.
So in this conversation, we discussed a host of topics from being a gymnast as a young
man, his journey into the military, serving in Northern Ireland, the Falklands Islands,
his transition into special forces, school safety, farm safety and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1000 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Michael Hawks.
Enjoy.
Well, Mick, I want to start by saying thank you so, so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
My pleasure.
It's just me and two French bulldogs that are running around like lunatics.
So no hassle at all.
No problems.
Perfect.
Well, I have a Union Jack hanging in my office, which I'm not in today, funnily enough, and
I see one in the back there.
So where are we finding you on planet Earth today?
Yeah, so I'm in a place called St. Owens Cross, which is a little village, basically,
outside of Hereford, but closer to Ross-on-Wye.
And I'm actually on the posh part of the farm, the working part of the farm is on the other
side of the road.
And I'm on the nice, decent side, if that makes sense.
So nice and quiet.
Great for the dogs.
So rural Herefordshire.
Beautiful.
Yeah, my granddad was, I think it was my granddad's side, was raised in Herefordshire, in Hereford
itself as well.
So it's kind of funny that when I got older, I realized that in the military setting, that
also is a pretty interesting place.
It is.
I class Hereford as home now.
You know, I've spent nearly 40 years of my life here.
All my kids were born here.
They've all been educated here.
So Yeah, so Hereford really is home.
So let's start at the very beginning of your timeline then.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
Yeah, so I was actually born in a military camp in Balford, which is in Wiltshire.
My father was in the military.
He was Royal Signals.
I went to 14 different schools or on the either in the UK or over in Germany purely because
at that time, the military had a bad habit of moving every couple of years, you know,
if that makes sense.
So we, you know, off we went and trotted around the globe really.
And so I spent six years in Germany.
Love playing football.
So or soccer, as you know, as the Americans say, love playing soccer.
So played for every school that I went to.
So my my up until the age of 15 and a half, all I ever wanted to be was a professional
footballer.
My mother and father got divorced while while we were in Germany.
So that forced forced us ready.
We came back with my mother.
So there's me, my brother and my sister came back to a little little town in Lincolnshire
of all of all places and did my last sort of 18 month of schooling in Lincolnshire,
had a trial, a football trial with Lincoln City, a small little small little town, went
up there, never got picked, unfortunately.
So that was a major kick, kicking the backside really, you know, for a young lad aspires
to be.
That's my ambition in life.
Now bizarrely, I never ever had any inclination of joining the military.
And the reason being is all the units that we were, you know, that I was without in Germany,
my father was attached to mainly Royal Artillery.
These units have been in Germany for quite a long time.
And there was a massive drinking culture in Germany, BAOR, as they used to call it.
So you know, these people walk around fairly large, alcoholically rotund, as we call it,
walk around, didn't really inspire me at all to join the military.
So that was that was the last thing on my mind really.
But once once I realized that I wasn't going to be a professional footballer.
You know, you sit down, you have to be realistic about your options.
Unfortunately, academically, not brilliant, because when I came back from Germany, the
school syllabus was totally different.
So you've got the basic lessons, your geography, history, English, maths.
But thereafter, it was all totally different.
So didn't really do enough to warrant going to college.
So I just took Plan B and went down to the Army Recruiting Center in Grimsby.
And the one person that really inspired me to join the military was sat at a desk with
a paratrooper very on.
Joining was the perfect sales pitch.
And that was people jumping out of an airplane.
And for a young kid of what I was 15 and a half still 15 and a bit, you know, seeing
that that that was a job for me.
Like, you know, so I've just signed on the dotted line.
And I ended up joining Junior Parachute Regiment at 16.
Just in fact, I was two months after my 16th birthday.
You mentioned about growing up in Wiltshire.
I'm from Corsham originally, just outside Bath.
So I was right on the Wiltshire-Avon border.
With that being said, though, you had this time in the UK.
What was it like through your eyes?
You mentioned about alcoholism and some of the military members that your dad was working
with.
What was the German experience like for a young English boy?
Fantastic, because, you know, I played football and the Germans are brilliant.
So I ended up playing for a little German town.
I was 13, 14 years of age playing for the under 18.
So yeah, it was brilliant, you know, for football.
I learned a bit of my language.
Actually, I love the Germans a bit because they're very direct, which is great.
And to be honest, I absolutely thoroughly loved it.
One of the first schools I went to was a boarding school up in a place called Wilmshaven, which
is right on the northern Baltic area.
And it was an old German naval base, grim, grim as hell, especially in the winter.
But we were there for a year and then they built a brand new school further closer.
I say closer, it was more of a bit of a drama because it used to be a 90 minute drive to
get to school in the morning, 90 minute back.
So it was a bit of a bit of a long old drag really.
But yeah, no, Germany, I loved it.
But like I say, no inspiration and joining the military.
When you mentioned about the drinking culture in the military, you know, one of the things
I think that forges our resilience and even, you know, the the potential of some of the
mental health struggles when it comes to military and first responders is our early life.
Did that affect the home life?
Was your father a subject to that too?
No, not really.
Not that I noticed.
You know, they had their parties.
The annoying thing really as a young kid, their wedding anniversary was on Christmas
Eve.
You know what it's like when you try you got a bit early hoping to get your presents.
We always had parties and people were still there at three o'clock in the morning when
you're at the door ready to go and look at your presents.
So yeah, that was frustrating.
In Germany at the time, it was a very sociable time for my parents.
You know, they had lots of friends and they used to come around.
But you know, it didn't affect me at all.
You know, I didn't, it certainly didn't overly affect me.
But it certainly did do slightly after I joined the military.
But I'll come to that in a minute if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I had a Mick Southall a little while ago who went through the Junior Power program.
He found himself in the Falklands as well.
If I've got that right, I believe he does.
I interview so many people.
Sometimes my stories get mixed up.
But it was an amazing insight into the Junior Power and how these children, you know, are
forged into men over the next few years.
So walk me through that.
What age were you when you enlisted?
And then what did the Junior Power experience, you know, how did it unfold for you?
Yeah, fantastic.
So I was 16 and two months, really long hair, you know, in 1976, that was the style.
So I had really long hair.
So got all that chopped as soon as I got down, I got all that chopped off.
The big winged shirts, I had hipster trousers, you know, with the four buttons on, you know,
flares.
I was a right off state to be to be quite frank, but I thought I was pretty cool.
Got down there, got it all chopped off.
And I am I right.
So I have never ever finished a cross country run when I was at school.
And the reason being fall under my arm.
All I was interested in was playing football.
So never actually participated in in the school cross country and athletics.
You know, it's just one of them things I wasn't interested in.
Got down to junior para and within within about the first two weeks, they had a we did
it a 10 mile run like a cross country run, I suppose.
Ten mile and the thought of doing 10 miles at that age.
And bizarrely, I came second and realized that I was actually a natural runner.
And I just wished I'd known that, known that before.
So I got enlisted forced into the the junior para cross country team.
I also joined the the gymnastic platoon because the gymnastic platoon traveled all around
the country doing demonstrations, including the FA Cup final in 1976, which is Man United
and Southampton.
So very, very sporty type environment.
Funny story, we came second in the regional cross country league.
So you used to go to different military units as in juniors and we came second.
So the junior parachute regiment came second to the Army Catering Corps.
Oh, that's not going to be smashing physical ability.
Yeah, so anyway, so we, you know, we got our trophies, you know, you know, first trophy
ever.
And we were heading back to Browning Barracks and Older Shop and the RSM.
The RSM was there to greet us on the bus and we thought, oh, you know, he's going to say,
well done, chaps and all this sort of malarkey.
He had a he had a big metal bin with him.
And he got on the bus and he went, if you think coming second to the Army Catering Corps
is an achievement, you can think again, throw your throw your trophies in the bin as you
get off a bus.
And really, it was just that mentality.
And so I did that for a year, really, up to the age of 17.
And basically, junior powers really just teaching you really the basics of being a soldier marching.
But doesn't actually take you the next step of proper soldiering.
And you only do that really when you join recruit company.
Now as a junior, so recruit company is the 24 week training that takes you through man
service and then you can go and join your battalions, if that makes sense.
So I joined about week five because, you know, the juniors have already done a year of learning
out of March and stuff like that.
So you actually joined at week five.
Because I was, you know, I was like that skinny as hell, really, really good runner.
Got myself through P Company, which I found quite hard because I was quite young, still
very immature.
You know, I was a 17 year old youngster.
And so I found it quite quite hard going.
Managed to get myself through it.
About five weeks later, we were getting ready to go to a massive military exercise type
training thing, which is called Advanced Wales down in Sully Bridge.
And unfortunately, just before then, we went for a run, about a 10 mile run again, no medical
facility, you know, no, no, you know, ambulance or whatever behind us.
It was just a normal run.
So a place called Hanclay Common in Older Shop.
And the instructors decided to have a bit of a mess about and we were on a, I was on
a tank burn.
We were all on a tank burn, which was about an eight foot, nine foot drop into what we
thought was going to be fairly soft mud and sand and all that sort of stuff.
And they what they what they wanted us to do is what we perceived as being a para role,
obviously non para trained at that time.
Off you go, like, you know, and as I jumped, yeah, I just felt a snap and and actually
broke my ankle quite badly.
So all the rest of the lads, a bit annoyed because they had carried me, carried me back
to back to Browning Barracks to the Med Center.
They then sent me up to Cambridge Military, which is a fairly large hospital in in Older
Shop, only literally only about a couple of kilometers away.
They manipulated my ankle into place, put it in a cast and then and then sort of left
it for two weeks, really.
But unfortunately, after two weeks, they re X-rayed it and then they realized that the
ankle hadn't fitted or hadn't knitted together as well as that they hoped.
So they decided to pin it.
So disappointed.
So they pinned it so that for the next six months, it was just getting over that, getting
it better rehabilitation and all that sort of stuff, only to be called in at the end
of that six months to be told.
So the training, the training officer and a medical doctor was there.
And they informed me that my life in the parachute regiment was now over because I couldn't parachute.
That was their that was their recommendation.
You can't parachute anymore.
So your options are go and join a normal infantry unit as such or labor military.
And at that time, because you're indoctrinated into the parachute regiment, I suppose, you
know, parachute regiment or nothing.
I left a big mistake.
I left the army and got out for about four months.
Totally disappointing.
And it was probably the worst decision really that I could have done because I ended up
going back to Lincolnshire, realized instantly that I was a bit of a bone move really getting
out.
So reapplied to to rejoin, if that makes sense.
And I was lucky enough that I bumped into a that same paratrooper wasn't there.
It was someone else now.
But he said, listen, I've got your medical doctor.
It's got a big, big red thing.
No parachuting on there.
So why and although you've got a really good report, you know, obviously a fit lad.
And have you thought about being a commando?
And at the time, there was only two armored commando units, engineers or the Royal Artillery.
And because my father was attached to Royal Artillery, it just stuck in my head.
I thought, OK, here we go.
I'll I'll join the the Royal Artillery.
So their basic training was down at Woolwich, just outside London, went down a bit of a
cheat really, because because bear in mind that, yes, I've been out for nearly five
months, I suppose.
But you still had that you still knew military and all that sort of stuff.
You know, that's not going to.
So I ended up getting best shot, best gym and best recruit, which which I thought was
a bit of a bit of a cheat, really.
But they you know, they said, listen, you know, it is what it is and take it and whatever.
So took that.
Unfortunately, because I wanted to join two nine commando, there was only one space available
on it and it actually went to a guy who wasn't very fit at all.
But his brother was in two nine commando.
So he got the place really.
So they they said, right, options are go and pick another unit and then you can you can
volunteer and transfer across.
But you know, it'll take a few months before you can do that.
So I automatically just thought, ah, I'll go to the unit that my father was attached
to because, you know, he used to go to school there.
Blah, blah, blah.
So I went to an organization called 40 Field Regiment Royal Artillery, who just happened
to be the alcoholic, the alcoholic regiment.
And they actually sent me to 137 Battery, who happened to be the alcoholic battery of
the alcoholic.
Honestly, the drinking culture was phenomenal.
So I arrived at seven o'clock at night, got to go into a four man room, all the beds empty,
purely because they'd all gone straight to the bar.
Now in over in Germany at the time, the battery bars was underneath the accommodation.
So the guys had come from the gun park at, say, four o'clock in the afternoon, still
in their cup rolls, you know, grimy cup rolls straight down into the bar and drinking alcohol
until about midnight or whatever.
And that was the daily routine.
And then on a weekend, slightly different, they started at 12 and then drank all the
way.
You know, it's just phenomenal.
So I woke up about three o'clock in the morning to a sound of dripping water.
And the guy opposite me was was obviously peeing his bed.
I got up at seven.
You know, hi, guys, I'm the new guy.
Then got a shower, came back and the guy that had peed his bed was still in his uniform,
but he'd reached underneath his bed and literally opened a can of lager and just nicked it down.
And I just thought, look, this is hardcore drinking here.
I've seriously got to think about doing some of it.
So I literally went off and joined the athletics, football, cross country, tug of war, bizarrely,
because the Royal Artillery were very good at tug of war.
And it really just got me away and doing something other than getting sucked into a drinking
culture, which was very, very easy to do, if that makes sense.
Just to jump in, what do you think it was, knowing that we all kind of finally realized
now in 2024 that drinking, you know, like a lot of addictions is filling a void, you
know, something that we're we're trying to get away from, forget, downregulate, whatever
it is.
What do you think was the cause of so much anxiety, depression, whatever it was, that
was causing that to be rife in that particular unit?
Yeah, I think because the 40 Field Regiment at the time had been based in the same camp
for 22 years.
So I think it just became a natural culture.
Unless you were very single minded to say, right, I'm going to join the cross country
team and just dedicate myself to running.
It was very easy for the normal people, the average soldier, I suppose, especially the
youngsters to go with peer pressure and peer pressure is, you know, let's go down the battery
bar, you know, have a beer, blah, blah, blah.
And away you go.
So, you know, I bear in mind that we had the I was only there eight months and we had three
suicides.
You know, a guy shot himself in the head.
We do a thing called site guard over there where you're actually guarding specific sites
of high value, if that makes sense.
And, you know, and you've got these towers, watch towers, and we just heard a shot at
night and a lad had decided to shoot himself through the mouth with an SLR, you know, took
the complete top of his head off.
We had a guy jump in front of a lorry on the autobahn, just jumped out in front of it.
And it was a shame because he was in the cross country team, not in the cross country, he
was in the athletics team.
But he was a half gas lad and apparently we didn't know, but he was getting bullied by
and it wasn't in our battery, it was in another battery.
And he, you know, decided enough was enough, so jumped in front.
And the other guy was he hung himself in the stores, you know, they couldn't find him and
maybe found him the next day and he'd hung himself.
And so that was a bit of a culture shock really, because that's what eight months or just less,
I suppose.
And you've got three suicides.
And yeah, it was just that, you know, that heavy and really, it accelerated my plans
to get away from there as quick as I can.
So I volunteered for every course I could try and do signals, OP, OPAC, whatever, all
sorts of courses just to just to get away from that, that environment.
And anyway, so we were doing cross country.
They the battery was away doing so much.
And I managed to get put my shit in and you know, I want to go to 9 command now.
They were going to be away for three weeks.
By the time they got back, I was packing my kit and I was gone.
And I and I got a flight over to Plymouth ready to do the command, of course.
And that was my way out.
But yeah, Germany at the time was not not healthy at all.
Or it could be it could be very healthy.
You could have had a great time in Germany if you were very single minded and determined
not to get sucked into it.
But unfortunately, a lot of people do do get sucked into it.
The people that escape it really are the married people because they're going back home to
their family.
But we had a lot of single single lads lived in the block.
Quite a few old and bold ones as well.
Like, you know, they've been in there for many years and they were the problem.
You know, they had this sort of this reach around getting people and let's go to the
bar.
It was it was just an unhealthy drinking culture.
But yeah, I managed to stay away from that, thankfully.
I think one of the least discussed elements of the mental health conversation is the multi
generational trauma.
And you know, we've kind of romanticized the World War Two generation and not downplaying
what they actually did.
What they actually did was incredible.
But we almost then painted a kind of facade that they just kind of rolled up their sleeves
and got on with it and went back to work as if that wasn't going to have an immense impact
that you were in Bastogne or whatever area that you served.
And then now I'm doing almost a thousand interviews.
You hear about, you know, usually grandpa, sometimes even dad, depending on the age of
the guest.
And then you realize, oh, no, these men and women didn't come back unharmed at all.
There was a huge amount of alcoholism and domestic violence.
And, you know, and again, it's not judging these people.
They had no conversation.
No one was talking about this then.
When you look at that generation that you're talking about, was there ever any stories
of the parents or conflicts prior that kind of lent to this epidemic that we're seeing
like dominoes falling at the moment?
Yeah, not really.
And I think a lot of it is because I just kept away from it.
In fact, because it can be quite depressing.
And I'm generally not a depressed.
I think that I'm not I'm actually quite a positive individual.
So yeah, so I literally just kept away from the, you know, that side of it and the story
side of it.
My mother and father are obviously divorced.
You know, so there was a massive divorce rate in Germany at the time and the way that went.
And it's funny because my father was a very unsupportive individual, you know, a typical
military guy, I suppose.
But, you know, he never once came and saw me play football, which I thought was quite
bizarre because you would have thought that your father would be pretty chopped to bits.
So I can relate, by the way, I won national championships in martial arts, so my dad never
watched me fight once.
So I know how it feels.
But yeah, absolutely.
It's frustrating, isn't it?
Because, you know, you look up and you see people and it'd be nice just to see your parents,
you know, watching.
And so because my father wasn't there, my mother wasn't there because she couldn't
drive obviously.
So that was but but what that did do is later on in life, when I got married and I had four
kids, I used to think back, you know, how can I be a better father than what my dad
was, if that makes sense?
Now, my father, he when they divorced, we sort of moved back from Germany at the time
to Lincolnshire.
And he came to visit me and my brother because my sister was quite young at the time.
And he brought four cans of beer.
Now, I was 15 and a bit never, never drunk alcohol in my life.
So why he brought four cans of beer expecting to have a chat with the boys.
But what it was, was him saying goodbye.
And he walked out the door never to be seen again.
You know, it was and I could never do that.
You know, if I've got three kids and I divorce, then I'm making sure I see the kids.
So that was, you know, that was him.
And that really, yeah, put me put me off, you know, ever, ever again.
So so my sister years later, tried to track him down, wasn't interested.
Absolutely.
Because I just thought if anyone that could walk out of a 15 year old, a 16 year old,
my brother and a seven year old sister is not right.
So you know, yes, you can track him down.
I personally not interested.
And I've never seen him since.
Unfortunately, passed away a few years ago, remarried, you know, and everything else.
Good luck to him, I suppose.
But as a father, no, not interested.
You know, when you walk out of a family, you know, and do it in that fashion.
Yeah, it had a massive effect on me, you know, that that you could do that for, you know,
to your kids.
And it just made me a better father.
Yeah, you know, I'm very, very close.
I'm, you know, I got divorced, more separated after 30 years.
Nothing untoward.
It was just we drifted apart.
So it survived the military, the marriage, when the kids were all young.
But as the kids were getting older, and I was in corporate security, but still working
away long, long, you know, six weeks on two weeks off, we literally drifted apart.
And I would come in having been galleranting all around the world.
And my ex wife, Kim and Keely, my daughter would be planning a holiday.
And as I came in, I was the doggy setter, because we had four dogs and two cats.
And I was happy, just happy to be back home and just chilling.
You know, you go off, you know, I'll take you to the airport, enjoy yourself, come back.
So we just found that we were drifting apart, if that makes sense.
But we actually got on better now than what we did, because we were bickering quite a
lot.
And it was very noticeable for my daughter as well.
But we actually, we actually got on really well now.
You know, we're not we're not together again.
We won't get back together, or I don't think so anyway.
But certainly, we actually got on it.
And it's great for the kids.
And I always I'm a big believer that if you ever separate because you never know, life
always changes like, you know, and if anyone ever splits up, always make sure it's amicable
because of the kids.
So when they're planning, you know, birthdays and, you know, all this sort of thing, it
doesn't put them in a position of, you know, who, who should we invite?
You know, because they're going to be fighting like cats and dogs, you know, at least for
me and Kim, at least we got on quite well.
So you know, we've done quite a few joints, you know, family visits.
We're, we're a wedding last year, all together, if that makes sense.
So yeah.
But like I say, my son, the way my father was, it had a massive effect on how I looked
at my kids, you know, I encouraged them to do as much sport.
And, you know, karate, judo, football, rugby, everything that we did, but we didn't push
them.
So all to the extent of, you know, as soon as you feel that you're, you're bored, had
enough and then fair do's, you know, come up.
The only thing we were persistent with was a musical instrument.
So they all picked their instrument, what they wanted to learn.
And that's the only thing really that they had to continue with up until senior school
when they can make their own decision, if that makes sense.
But everything else, it was, you know, do it for as long as you feel you're happy with
doing it.
And then when you, when you feel that you're not happy with doing it, then, you know, go
and do something else.
Because that's what kids are like, you know, they can plan, they can do it as much as they
want, like, you know, but without being forced into it.
When I speak to a lot of the people who are athletes when they were younger and the coaches,
the multi-sport athlete is usually the most resilient and the most successful.
So this idea, especially in America, where, you know, you've got your kid playing baseball
and throwing pitches at three years old, and every summer they're doing travel ball and
sports camps, and then they wonder why their shoulder explodes at 17 years old.
It's because of that.
And I have the same philosophy, both of, you know, what you've said, my dad was, let's
just say he wasn't there, you know, in many ways, and there was, you know, an element
of straying as well.
So you know, I could have gone one of two ways.
I think this is what's beautiful about, you know, the husband, the wife, a father or mother
is you get to choose.
Do you follow that same level of trauma, that same path where my dad was an alcoholic, my
granddad was an alcoholic, I'm destined to be one?
Or do you say, I'm going to do the complete opposite.
And I've made sure that apart from being on shift as a firefighter, that I was there for
every single one of my games, my son's games.
And he played, you know, he's played at a high level in school as far as varsity, and
he's played in just little, you know, local pickup football, you know, leagues.
And I've always been there because when he scores a goal or when he saves a goal or whatever
it is, I want to be there when he turns around with that big smile on the face.
Same as you did when you scored a goal or I did when I won a fight and turned to the
stands and all I saw were my friend's parents.
So I think it's beautiful that you were able to take the higher ground and say, I'm going
to learn from my father what not to do rather than the other way.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I, you know, I found that I was quite fortunate having four kids in the military.
I was actually there for all their births, which is extremely unusual.
So my oldest was born in Plymouth when I was an instructor on the all arms command, of
course, and literally he was four days old.
When I went on SAS selection.
So I the next time I saw him, he was six months old, which is a bit bizarre.
Now trying to explain to people that when you do things like SAS selection, you've got
to be completely single minded and, you know, everything else is blocked out the way.
But for me, you know, it was worth blocking out the family.
So my my my new wife, we'd only been married about 18 months and then and then having a
young son of four days old.
Selfish.
Yeah.
But I was looking at the end game.
We were going to be improving our life lifestyle and everything by passing this course.
And off we went.
And and quite bizarrely, we were in the junk.
So they the the hardest part of SAS selection is obviously the jungle phase because you're
in canopy and you know, it can be quite intimidating.
And you've got to be you've got to be completely focused on what you're doing.
It can be a very dangerous environment if you're having thoughts of anything else.
And and this lad came up to me one day and and started asking about my son.
Because he's he's got a young he had a young son as well.
When I found out and he just wanted a conversation about and to be honest, I got rid of him.
I was short stripped.
Sorry, mate, but not interested like, you know, so and so so ready just fobbed him off
there and then because, you know, I didn't want to start dwelling on on family when,
you know, we're there to to pass SAS selection.
And the next day, this lad decided to to bin it and and can do it.
And and and I think the talk really was was possibly a cry for help, I suppose, just to.
But but what I didn't want to do is is end up being the person that he's his shoulders
on or a shoulder to cry on, because it would have me thinking about family and that would
could have devastating effects really on your ability to to to do the job in hand, because
some of the stuff you do in the jungle.
Very, very dangerous.
And you've got to be completely focused on what you're doing and certainly, you know,
every teenage young boy, your four day old son is massively put in the back.
And that and that takes a lot of a lot of selfishness, I would say, but also discipline
as well.
You know, you've got a job to do that.
Let's get on with it.
Like, you know, and then, you know, again, with the three other boy, the three other
kids, two other sons.
I very, very fortunate that I just happen to be either in Hereford and my daughter when
she was born, I was actually attached to my five in London.
And we had the bloopers and days rather mobile for a bit of a bleeper.
And the message came through on the bleeper.
Come home.
I mean, labor.
So I kept the message because I was hammering about 130 mile an hour down the M4.
You could show the officer.
Absolutely.
So if I was going to get pinged and you just say, listen, and bizarrely, I had a rear rear
left blowout of the vehicle 130 mile an hour.
And this is why and it was a Toyota.
But it but the vehicle never it never came offline.
You know, big bang, sort of drifting over.
Man, she quickly change it.
Did it slow us down?
So I needed to get back and let's say stormed into the house, you know, expecting a new
baby and my ex wife was stood there as you went, oh, I don't know what's going on.
And she went, oh, you know, I'm you know, it's coming.
But you know, anyway, go upstairs, have a shower.
I'll make you some tea.
And literally within 10 minutes ready of me going out, I'm a quick shower.
She started screaming.
You know, call the midwife.
We sent the three boys out to go and play football as you do.
And and let's say half an hour later, my daughter was born and they and thankfully the midwife
let me cut the cord, which is great.
And yeah, so four fantastic kids love it.
You know, you know, and you know, they're just they're just awesome dudes.
And they keep you I find with kids that they keep you very grounded.
You know, you can you can be off in Northern Ireland doing some stuff over there.
You come back and next minute you're picking the kids up.
So it's it gives you that sense of normality.
That's where it whereas, you know, single blokes, maybe, you know, they come back from
Ireland or whatever, and then go back to the block or go back to an empty house and they
could dwell on, you know, what they've actually done.
Whereas when you've got, you know, four or three boys at the time jumping all over your
head and it was it was good grounding.
You know, I mean, and it just kept you level headed and normal.
And you just didn't.
So I'm really fortunate that having done quite a lot in my military career, I suppose, and
afterwards, you know, there's some quite dodgy stuff thereafter.
But I sleep easier at night and and and thankful for that.
And a lot of that is because I had a stable stable marriage and great kids around.
And I always say that if you've got a really good family to come back to at night time,
you can you can sort of get away from me, you know, get the ghosts away and just concentrate
on the good side of stuff, if that makes sense.
So so never, never ever suffered, you know, post-traumatic stress, none of that.
And I am, you know, and but a lot of that is, you know, family, having a really cool
family to to get you through them dark, dark moments, I suppose.
It's funny when you were talking about that.
I've never really thought of it this way.
But when as firefighter paramedics in America, you know, we see everyone's worst day, no
one's calling saying, hey, I'm having a great day.
Just wanted to check in with you.
You know, it's it's it can be, you know, the worst day might be is something as silly,
which I have run on.
My dentures don't take rice taste right, which is obviously a psychological issue all the
way through to these horrific car crashes and fatal fires and all the things that we
respond to.
But when you go home, not only do you get hopefully if you live in a somewhat decent
area, you get a taste of the rest of the world, because we're seeing this little slice, you
know, these these emergent calls that most people only experience maybe a handful of
times in their entire existence.
But also, it's proactive.
In my job is very reactive.
You know, someone it's already gone horribly wrong.
Now we have to go and unfuck it basically, for lack of a better word.
But then when you go home, you have an opportunity to raise kind, compassionate, considerate
children that hopefully will be the opposite, especially if we're responding to crimes,
you know, and gangs and homelessness and addiction and sex workers and all the things that people
have found themselves desperate.
You have an opportunity to move the balance the other way.
So I think that's also a healing element when you come back, whether it's a shift as a firefighter
or a deployment of war.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'll tell you what, funny old thing, but when when we actually separated, we lived in a
quite a large five bed barn conversion right out in the country.
Fantastic.
I actually thought that that was our forever home.
But situations changes and all that sort of thing.
So when we when we were sort of talking about, you know, divvying things up as you do, I
actually gave the whole house to to my ex wife, to Kim.
And the reason being is, you know, four fantastic kids.
She deserved it.
She absolutely, 100 percent deserved it because, you know, when I was in the military, she
was always there, always there for the kids.
When I'd left the military and I started working away again, even more so than when I was in
the military.
She was always there for the kids, like, you know, and the way the kids have been brought
up really is testament to her as opposed to me.
And I'm yes, I'm a father and this, that and the other.
But the discipline, the manners, the way they are is all through her.
And I just thought, you know, who am I to be, you know, a total prat and a bit of an
a hole to to, you know, to start taking things away and stuff like that.
So I'm because my daughter was still living with my ex wife.
You know, also in the back of my mind, I thought, yeah, at least my daughter's she's going to
be catered for.
So I thought I was mad as a hatter.
What are you doing?
But at the time I was living in house, I was in Monaco for three years.
Not ideal.
But I, you know, it meant that I wasn't I didn't really need the house, if that makes
sense.
So, yeah, I gave it to gave it to Kim.
Unfortunately, she's sold it.
I was a bit gutted about that, but she sold it because her and my daughter run a little
business in Hereford.
And they obviously wanted to be a bit closer because we used to be about 40 miles outside
of Hereford.
So they they actually sold the house, went mortgage free and brought a nice little house
in in Hereford itself.
Like, you know, so, yeah, good, good on him, like, you know.
But I didn't I didn't want his money issues getting in the way of my relationship with
the kids, which I thought was quite important.
And it's very easy to do, you know, people get this thing of money and and it can ruin
a completely wreck a relationship, even with your kids, if that makes sense to be if you're
that way orientated.
And I just didn't want to do that.
You know, I was quite content and they go, you take the house.
And like I say, she absolutely deserved it.
You know, I married her when she was 19, you know, dragged her away from Scotland, which
is where and where she lived, dragged her all the way down to Plymouth initially while
I was on the all arms command, of course, and moved her up to Hereford.
You know, she had three three kiddies, three young boys all under the age of three.
You might, you know, you know, when you've not got family around you, you know, all her
family are up in Scotland.
She was pretty hardcore, you know, fantastic mom like, you know, and I just, you know,
I know every now and then I, you know, I had to have a chat with the kids, you know, when
sometimes they, you know, kids get a bit of a moody on with their with a mom or dad or
whatever.
But when they have a moody on with the mom, I always remind them that, listen, when you
were growing up, who was always there for you, your mom.
So go around now and apologize and suck it up, like, you know, just get on with it.
And yeah, so it's it's it's been gracious, really, and and humble about what wives go
through, you know, because people always go on about the military, you know, military
guys, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this, you know, bangs.
But actually, you know, the wives, because they're living that, you know, the worry,
quite bizarrely, you know, one of my sons, all my three sons are in the military.
One of them deployed to Afghanistan a few years ago, and my ex wife was Kim was absolutely
distraught.
You know, and I looked at her and went, Hold on.
When I used to go to Bosnia and undercover in Ireland and all that stuff, you never used
to cry like that.
And she quite rightly so she went, Yeah, but you're my husband.
These are my kids.
You know, these are my babies like, you know, and she's right.
You know, they they say it's like the difference.
So yeah, I love a lot of time for, you know, the forces wives purely because they do really
put up with a lot for very little reward, I suppose.
So so who was I to, you know, take half of a house and make her struggle?
Well, that's not within my nature.
If I make sense.
It does.
Well, speaking of sending children to war, let's go back to the Falklands.
So you've become a commander, you've still got a pin in your foot.
Firstly, I've had a let me see, I had John Geddes or John Graham, I think was his pen
name, Philip Neame, Nick Southall on the show, all that were deployed in various roles.
And one of the things I think that's the least discussed was the heroism of some of the civilian
vessels that transported you guys down.
Did you go on the camera to the Falklands or was it a different vessel?
No, I came back on the camera when it all finished.
We went we actually started off on the an LSL landing ship auxiliary called the Supercell
Ville.
So flat bottom, flat bottom vessel and attached to the port side of the vessel.
I don't know why I've got my right hand up.
So on the port side of the vessel was a massive mexi float or a raft, you know, big metal
thing and it just banged.
So all the way down there you got this flipping banging of this big metal thing on a flat
bottom vessel.
When we got into the Bay of Biscay, everyone was violently sick.
So yeah, so we were on that ready all the way down to Ascension Island and then just
after the Ascension Island, all the vessels stopped on Ascension really.
And it was a great way really of getting off because on a vessel you have to wear soft
shoes, trainers or desert wellies or whatever flip flops.
But it was a great way of getting onto a volcanic island and doing a 10 mile run in your boots
again and just to just to get the cobwebs out I suppose and but your feet were just
completely soft.
So you actually mashed them up with blisters and everything else by the time you finished.
Now we did one because we were attached to four or five commando.
So we did a 10 mile yob as they call it around the island and then two days later, Three
Para decided that they were going to do their their tab around there and they wanted to
work with OP parties, Royal Atelier OP parties to test the communication really and doing
a bit of you know how we would operate together if we were ever together.
So some bright spot volunteered us to do another one.
So we did another 10 mile barely mind that we're you know blistered feet by this time.
But because you're wearing a green hat and you're with you're with paras you didn't
let that show like you know and off you went and did it.
But it was good because it like I could say it just got you got the cobwebs out ready
for and then we and then we really crossed decked over to a vessel called the Stromness.
Which was a military vessel but it was a more of a logistics type vessel called the Stromness
quite a big old thing and it's where four or five commando were.
So we as OP because we were artillery OP's we were going to be attached to them.
When I say artillery I've never been on the guns in my life you know so that's there down
one end I'm at the other end with the with four or five commando directing the gunfire
and all that sort of stuff if that makes sense.
So we had three four man teams that were and we were attached to a company called Yankee
Company and it was great because our camp in Arbroath Scotland was four or five commando.
So the people that you're actually going to war with you actually know through you know
going to Norway for years and know I'm drinking alcohol in town or whatever like you know
socializing which is great.
Whereas the other two batteries that we had they were working with units and they were
separated so they didn't really have that close bond.
So yeah so it was funny story so when we landed when we were due to go on shore so you got
all the Marines in a land little landing craft now we got on and we somehow ended up at the
front you know where the ramp was and we were looking around going hold on how come we're
at the front here like you know but you just suck it up and get on with it like you know
and they made us carry four mortar bombs so obviously you're berging four four mortar
bombs and it was just a quick way ready of getting mortars or mortar bombs onto the beach
if that makes sense.
So the ramp went down thankfully it was an unopposed landing we got off stack it off
with all your kit that's quite heavy drop the drop the mortar bombs down on the the
beach and it was a nice big part of it and then just moved up into the high ground so
you know it was and really up until about three or four days before that we actually
thought that you know they'd come up with some sort of peace settlement and it'd be
all a waste of time but literally the night before when you're getting all camped up and
you're starting to get all your orders and you're good to go that's when you when you
realize that this is it okay let's go for it like you know and but it's what all kids
anyone that joins the military you know that's what you've always wanted to do like you know
so you know it's time to get on with it like you know so it was good it's thoroughly enjoyed
it if that makes sense but I think a couple of days into it when so the initial part was
just forming a beachhead as they call it so get all the troops into the high ground we
saw a lot of damage so we had a ship called the Antelope which is a little frigate that
got bombed and it blew up there was a bomb that didn't go off a very brave individual
went on there to try and defuse it it went off he got killed a few others but the sad
side of it really breaking its back and literally you know it was about two kilometers out in
the sound directly in front of us so quite a poignant night really knowing that a vessel
was just sunk directly in front of you like you know so again that you know that had the
effect of you know being very determined about what we needed to do if that makes sense so
and then we did the breakout and so four or five command though was the unit that carried
all their kit basically and we did the the yomper cross as they call it or tab on the
way over and we literally tabbed all the way to stopped off in there two settlements teal
inlet a place called teal in that and Douglas just to to spend the night there I suppose
and then move on with the objective being to get to a place called Mount Mount Kent
which was quite a high feature a fair way outside so I would say two-thirds of the way
to Stanley and we the good thing about Mount Kent is you can see all the high ground or
all the high features that were going to be our next objective if that makes sense but
it was always on Mount Kent my my ankle flared up somewhat because six months before the
Falklands I'd actually been down to and I've been for a run and my ankle was really really
sore so they the medical doctor at Arbroath decided that yes probably you probably need
to get your pin out because it should have come out after 18 months but being a numpty
you know when I left the army I totally forgot about it and so when they tried to get the
pin out they couldn't get it out so they buried it deeper but they the tissue hadn't really
knitted so so because your feet are soaking wet in on the Falklands you know it's peat
bog so soaking wet all the time the the ankle started to get really infected and a bit gammy
and everything else so when we got to Mount Kent all the the rear echelon units from four
or five commando were catching up and someone suggested that I go down and and get it wrapped
up and get it get it you know cleaned out and everything else so nipped down there really
and this this doctor examined it again military doctor bane of my life he decided that he
was going to evacuate me and send me back to the ship hospital ship called the uganda
and and I just walked him and thought hold on I've just I've just walked all that way
here just before the battles and you want to say okay so anyway so he strapped you up
and and he said right well when you gave me a load of antibiotics and then said listen
what would you do is go back now grab your kit and then come back down yeah no props
haha yeah fat chance that was going to happen so I off I went to so got back to my position
on Mount Kent the next day we actually adjusted all the artillery pieces onto a mountain called
two sisters and bizarrely we adjusted all the so three batteries all at once is called
a fire mission regiment so we called a fire mission regiment adjusted the guns so that
way so when we did the attack you just had numbers that you know you read out the number
and the guns automatically fired onto that target if that makes sense so it was all it's
all pre pre planning your artillery and stuff and all that lot so we did that and they the
CEO came up on the radio and went oh do you realize that's the the first fire mission
regiment in anger since the Korean War bizarrely and and we adjusted it like you know so but
the the next day this this doctor tracked me down and and give me a right hard time
refused his order blah blah blah blah thankfully there was a major from our unit who was stood
behind me and and he sided with me and said listen Hawkesley feels happy enough so he's
going to crack on so you know thanks for your eyes but bog off and my thinking was you know
you've walked all that way you've got three other colleagues so me going sick now is going
to leave a massive burden for them if that makes sense bear in mind that you're now going
into battle you know what every kid wants to do when they join the military so for me
going going off to the you get was not even an option so yes I refused it and right decision
yeah absolutely because when I got on the camera at the end of it all and I ended up
ten days in the in the sick bay on antibiotics and and everything else just to because the
ankle was completely manky and and all that sort of stuff would I would I change that
no not at all because you know you know ultimately we were there to do a job and and and a little
gammy ankle you know if you're going to go sick then make sure your arms been blown off
or you know you've lost a leg and then go sick but certainly not a gammy ankle that
you can strap up take a few tablet paracetamol you know get on with it that sort of mentality
and and that's what we did really and it was good to see the battles went for fire commando
lost four people we were on the and this is where I got the mindset ready that I was going
to go special forces we were getting mortared on the start line for the attack on four five
on two sisters but when you mean mortared on the start line there is nothing you can
do about it and and and let you just got to sit there and just hope that that that more
that's coming in it hasn't got your name on it and and and to be honest it was flipping
freezing so you know my thinking was well I might as well get me head down because I
don't know when the you know when to next time I'm going to be able to say well I don't
know so so my my thinking really was solid just get me head down and then when we're
good to go you know at least about an hour or two sleep like you know if that makes sense
so if you're not by a morta but you know one side you know sat huddled and you know and
and there's you sort of strolling away like you know getting you get your head down like
you know but but it was that you know that mentality that you know you know it is what
it is so you know it's not a drama it can be a drama you know if a morta hits you then
there's not a lot you're gonna there's not a lot you're gonna worry about like you know
but but certainly you know let's get on with it so so so that really set the tone really
for when we did the attack which which went really well and bear in mind that the four
or five commander had lost all their mortars unfortunately they had a bit of an incident
where they actually lost people before before the attacks so they they didn't have any mortars
at all so they're very reliant on on artillery ourselves and also a naval naval vessel called
the either the glaborgan i think it was um who actually fantastic they actually stayed
online a bit too long uh supporting four or five commando a bit too long and then when
daybreak came up they should have been gone uh but they weren't and they got they got
picked up by a ground crew uh exorcist uh who fired and and uh killed a few people on
it uh but to be honest what a brave decision by the captain to stay on station while four
or five commander were still trying to take uh they these two sort of major major features
which which made up really uh two two sisters uh along with with our artillery and stuff
like that so um yeah so at the end of it um at the end of that that phase um it was was
all finished we then started getting bombarded with the 155 which is the hell of a large
artillery piece really uh but it was very it wasn't accurate fire um so when it when
it came in close it was scary um but because they were firing they had three 155 guns and
instead of having them all together and and firing them together which would have been
a hell of a hell of a scary experience to be at the bottom of that they were using one
at a time uh and just firing indiscriminately they they obviously had op's observation posts
uh seeing uh and trying to hit targets uh but it but it was you know it was it was one
of them hit and miss a bit like the mortars you know if your name's on it you're going
to get it uh if not and and try not to worry about it like you know um and then really
it was the planning for the the final phase and and literally our final phase really was
to take a place called sapper hill um and if if this had gone ahead um without a shadow
doubt we would have lost quite a few people because it was very flat open through mine
fields uh very open uh no real nowhere ready to so we were we were you know we were having
to tell four or five commander the blokes themselves listen we can't we can't support
you as much as you want uh because we need to to retain a lot of the ammunition ready
for the next phase if that makes sense because what they were doing was they were they were
using the artillery as if as if it was mortars um so any close in sort of fire support um
they were saying listen can you can you hit that machine gun with with artillery and you
know how much say listen mate um go use your 66s or your 84 millimeters and take it out
because we we certainly can't and there and quite bizarrely we didn't actually use our
own guns uh on uh two sisters because of the trajectory of the the mountain uh we had
to use a battery called eight battery um and and i'll tell you what i'll tip my hat off
to them guys because the gunnery skills uh that they provided uh for that whole duration
of the attack which was a day and a half ready including night time uh was just phenomenal
um you know no not a single round out of out of place uh danger close uh just about nearly
all all the fire missions that we did were danger close uh not the way you do it in a
school the school of artillery uh you have uh you know saw that let's let's just get
the round and just tell the marines listen guys keep your heads down because in about
20 seconds six rounds are going to come down fairly close to you uh if i might and that
and that's how we played it um it was all it was all done you know off a cuff uh just
get on with it type uh type scenario like you know but but the marines came up at the
end uh very grateful really for the the artillery support got ready for the next one and then
obviously the word got around that they uh they surrendered uh so um and thankfully so
we ended up on on two on um on sapper hill and and uh just grateful uh that we weren't
fighting to get there because it would have been it would have would have been touch and
go i would say um for quite a few people um but then and then you know and then it all
sort of finished really quick and next minute we're on the uh uh we're on the uh camber
uh heading back and obviously i went to the sick bay uh i couldn't believe the state of
the end course so so everybody sort of drinking celebrating blah blah blah and i'm sat in
the hospital and thankfully i had a television uh so i happened to watch the and they the
football world cup had started and bizarrely one of the first games that was on was argentina
because they were they they were the defending champions and they and i remember it really
well but they played belgium in their very first game and lost so not only lost the first
game in the so yeah so it was good so you know would i would i have changed it because
of my ankle no not at all um you know it's uh you know we you know we did what we sat
out to do uh quite happy with it um ankle yeah it was a bit of a mess but you know i
was now going to get six weeks r and r uh so plenty of time really to to recover uh and
i bear in mind that on the uganda you're getting proper people that are being hurt seriously
you know being shot been blown up uh lost limbs and all that sort of things so me turning
up with a gammy ankle no uh sorry but that's just not the that's not not not the way you
know in my mind uh how you come out of a battle uh if that makes sense you know you you come
out of a battle because you you literally can't move or you know somewhat seriously
wrong and you can you can still drag yourself around with a gammy ankle um yeah talk to
me about the civilians for example on the camera that went into war because i think
this is another under two two things seem to be under discussed firstly i think the
british people and i was god how old was i then i think eight when you guys went to war
um you know so it was initially this you know heroic thing but then they'd be like oh but
they were up against a bunch of you know argentinian farm boys and it was downplaying the enemy
and then you hear the real you know soldiers and and marines that i had on the show and
it's like yeah there was an element of that but there were also argentinian special forces
on there i mean there was a whole spectrum but i think one of the most powerful things
aside from what you and your fellow you know military members did in uniform was the heroism
of some of these people that were a cruise you know entertainers like wendy that i've
heard a few times so just talk to me about that before we transition to the special forces
yeah i mean i mean bear in mind that you know military guys you volunteer uh to to go into
combat these people were seconded um even even on the lsls you know we had a lot of
chinese uh honk not chinese but hong kong um people that were doing they worked in the
canteen and the laundry and all that sort of thing uh so really um you know expectations
for them was wasn't that they should be going to war uh but they did and they always with
a big smile um and i think they did they i think because you've got all the military
around here um it was for them it was you know we're not going to let the military down
which is quite a bizarre um thing like when we went over to the cambera when it was on
um when it was at ascension island uh really to go and drink some alcohol so we we sort
of stuck ourselves on there and there and and locked ourselves in a bar uh just because
it's the first time we'd had proper drink if that makes sense and but the people would
you know all they the staff and that was just fantastic and and the same is coming back
you know because i was in the hospital you know they just couldn't do enough for you
uh even to the extent that um you know i was on antibiotics and a couple of lads came in
and brought in a you know a couple of bottles of beer or a couple cans of beer and the nurse
was there and you know yeah crack on like you know all we'll do is we'll double your
dose counteract i mean honestly you know for military is slightly different because you're
you know that's what you're there for you volunteer but when you're seconded um that's
a whole different uh ball game like you know but but you know nobody there was no negativity
at all um it was you know they it was just that culture i think and and it was all part
of history i suppose you know we're off down there we're all maggie's maggie's sort of troops
like you know and everything else and uh and we're off to uh to get our island back like
you know so yeah now my my hat goes off really anyone that's seconded to go to a war um good
effort um you know different from military and you're right about the you know the argentinians
uh i i i did a podcast with a an arthur an argentinian um major uh talking about it and
no animosity at all um you know because we're soldiers you know soldier soldier you know and
we were both there to do to do the same thing you know he was there to to try and defend what he
thought was his island uh we were there to retake what we what we now know is our island uh so
you know at the end of it no animosity you know i i love the argentinians to bits um hate them
when they play football uh fantastic rugby team and everything else but but personally uh no
absolutely no animosity uh to the argentinian especially the military you know these these
people especially the pilots extremely brave individuals uh guys the young lads on the on
the ground some of them uh conscripts um were more were more really about surviving the cold
weather as opposed to fighting but i tell you what they didn't uh they didn't capitulate uh you know
they they they fought up to the last or the last bit really and and it was only until they realized
that they were going to be overrun that they actually bug out like you know and as as most
people would do like you know so yeah how after them civilians argentinians yeah no no issues with
them at all beautiful well when i think of that conflict and i think of souls we plane and like
you said wales and some of these these training areas that you worked on before you can see how
that was a kind of apples to apples and probably prepared you very well all the long hikes etc
now you're in the special forces you know role and you're deploying in the middle east very
different you know topography and culture and everything so what was the contrast between
conflict on the falkland islands and then this this you know high tier one unit that you're with
now in a completely different part of the world yeah different world and a lot of it is the assets
that you have available the intelligence that you have available the equipment that you have
available and also you're working with you know class individuals you know people uh that put
them through the rigors of a course and and got them so you know you're talking top individuals
who you're fighting with like you know on the on the side of so yeah slightly different um but in
in a way um you know i i joined special forces i suppose because i wanted to see out the rest of my
career um you know getting stuck in and and not being in the camp i i was never a very good
camp soldier um you know some of the lads will probably remind me of the fact when i was up in
our both always used to get picked up because my very very wasn't properly you know my cap
badge wasn't around by my eye it was more around the ear my lightweight trousers were always
slightly different color uh to everyone else's and yeah i just you know that that camp soldiering
thing it wasn't for me so it was obvious that um you know the best way around that really is is to
move on like you know and which is what we did but yeah i i found uh special forces slightly
different i i was quite unlucky really uh the very first uh campaign i suppose uh was the first golf
war um but i was in a squadron that should never have been there um you know i was in b squadron
um so they they had the three patrols that went out rather one zero two zero three zero
uh but actually b squadron should never have been in theater you know we'd just been on the anti-terror
team uh in uh in hereford g squadron uh bazzali who were going to be taken over from b squadron
g squadron were in in the middle east uh doing all the build-up really um and were and were good to
go uh you know i mean they're fully fully equipped and everything else and then uh end of or mid
december i think it was we swapped over uh and then suddenly g squadron on the anti-terrorist team
uh and b squadron you know no you know no equipment blah blah blah so i i suppose i was fortunate
uh me and uh seven other guys got sent up to the u.a. on a training task uh really uh and it was uh
to keep favor with the uh u.a. government uh so we we were doing bodyguard training uh for their
special forces um and it really it was more of a thank you to the u.a. government for letting us use
their their assets their their airports and uh and all that sort of stuff for they when they move up
into saudi arabia and everything else uh so so just before the grand war started we we automatically
assumed that when the war was going to start we would move up as an ink man patrol and and join
uh one of the squadrons up there or b squadron you know because they're trying to find a job
uh but the two squadrons that were deployed were a and d uh they had all the assets all the equipment
and off they went and and blah blah blah um but then they the day before the air war started the
co of 22 came up uh and said listen guys you know apologies but you're going to be staying here uh
you're going to be watching the whole war on tv cnn uh because we need you to stay here um to keep
to keep to to keep the face ready with the u.e. government as a thank you you can't really just
say right sorry guys but we're off now uh and leave of course half finished uh so that was a
bit galling uh to be told that uh if i may but at least you know at least we knew we had a job and
it was you know we knew what we were doing uh but it was it was galling watching everything pan out
on cnn uh on a on a thing like you know so the the boys are getting shot up and and we're losing
people here and we're sat in the u.e. uh in the officer's mess or watching it on a on a television
light you know it's that galling yeah uh but to be honest b squadron should should we have been in
theater no uh it should have been what what really should have happened by right common sense should
have applied b squadron should have stayed on the anti-terrorist team and done another six month
rotation and uh g squadron because they're fully fully equipped they've done all this training
they've done all the you know they can deploy with the other two squadrons um that that's
that should have what but it didn't uh so unfortunately b were we're just hunting
looking for jobs uh which which i i didn't really agree with uh but thankfully i you know um we were
sent out and we were doing a training task up in the u.e. uh came back from that really and
better mind that you know we'd lost a few people uh so that was a grim thing really you know coming
back and having to bury uh some of the you know and i carried the coffin uh of a young young
lad called bob consiglio uh who's an ex-raw marine uh literally only been in the squadron um about a
year and then we had them we then the gulf war started and unfortunately he he was killed rest
in peace um in uh in part of bravo two zero so so carrying the coffins we am and we it was a sad day
because it was three coffins um leg lane uh was another one rest in peace and vince phillips uh
again rest in peace you know and i just just heartbreaking ready it's the first time really
i've actually welled up um but when when we when we had the coffins and we were about to leave the
the church uh i think it was vince's one of vince's young youngsters uh cried out uh daddy and you
could see because we were the rear uh coffin you could just see all the coffins sort of moving
jerking um where people were sort of you know we're all you know hardcore individuals but
you know when you when you hear that um yeah sad sad sad day really quite bizarrely um so it was
st martin's church and and there's a main road directly opposite as you come out the main the
main doors uh into the open there was a main road and there and the press decided to turn up
so you had you know sun newspaper and all the other half which sort of rocks up and then what
they did was they decided to put a um a sort of um they they built a little platform for them
on the other side of the road uh on the pavement just so they can stand up there and
and take pictures and on cue uh the sas had uh organized a articulated truck
to break down directly in front of the doors if that makes sense so that so that they just blocked
as we came out uh so they so i think one on that one of the sun one of the yeah because we're on
the front page of the sun but they they sprinted around obviously they sussed out what was going on
but by then the two front coffins had already gone around the side and we were the last coffin so
they managed to get a quick picture there just of the the back end of back end of us if that makes
sense and uh and thankfully uh no no facial pictures like you know um because that was on
the front page of the sun the next day like you know which was quite annoying uh but yeah i just
thought a bit of um a bit of lateral thinking there by the regiment that's brilliant uh but but
you know dropping the coffins in you know yeah sad sad day uh to to lose colleagues especially
colleagues that have only been in a year uh or you know a year and uh you know legacy was on my
selection uh vince uh vince you know uh been in quite a few years really really good lad
they're really well liked and everything else and uh yeah it just seemed a total waste really uh if
that makes sense but uh realities have have been in the s.s i suppose uh and uh you know the next
thing you just get on with whatever you need to do uh there's um quite bizarrely um the bob consiglio
uh was royal marine uh and in them days if he was a royal marine transfer into the s.s you had to
literally leave the marines and then you had to be administered by the parachute regiment
while you did selection and so on um on his on the coffin lid uh it had bob consiglio parachute
regiment and he wasn't parachute regiment he was raw marines and uh and thankfully uh there was a
lot of raw marines turned up at the funeral and one of them took his bury off and and dropped it
perfectly on top of that that plaque uh so he had a green green berry on it and then a few of the
other lads did exactly the same you know they took they which i thought was uh a really nice touch
by the by the marine's light you know if that makes sense and a complete ass um cock up ready
by by the regiment um having this plaque on there um parachute regiment uh he wasn't he was raw
marines light you know so uh good on the booties for for for doing that for bob light you know
uh if that makes sense so yeah sad sad time but you know it is what it is and then you crack on
and really and our next our next sort of uh major conflict no for me anyway was was doing all the
undercover stuff over in northern arnold before we jump into that i just want to kind of hit a
tangent for a moment when i look at and i'm now looking through you know american eyes obviously
i've been here for 22 years now um i look at for example the drug companies and you look at america
and as we sit here now um america is either is excuse me 70 obese or overweight and then sadly
when i go home i see the uk is is trying to catch him up it's it's heartbreaking but you know unlike
the the uh us the uk still is hanging on to the nhs which i think is an incredible system but you
got to support it properly and fund it and get behind it and keep britain's healthy so they don't
use it very much but over here there's no checks and balances and we have a profit-based health
care system so really it's promoting ill health you know it's legalized drug dealing basically
is what it is the fatter and sicker people are the more money these companies make and don't get me
wrong i was a paramedic for years you know there's some great drugs that save lives you know anesthesia
all these things that we need but chronic disease management has been abused horrendously it's the
same with war when you have people who make uniforms and mres and missiles and planes and
all the things there's obviously a pull from some lobbyists to say well let's keep in conflicts you
know i'm making a lot of money when we're at war but that's at the expense of the very men that you
just talked about and of course there are times where we cannot turn our back i mean world war
two is obviously going to be a great example of that what is your perspective of that checks and
balances to ensure that we only go to war when we absolutely have to and all diplomacy has failed
yeah that's uh it's a difficult one especially especially being in special forces if that makes
sense because you're there ready to to do what you have to do um so oh you too yeah so when
when um when when really when you're um uh and you know in this in this special forces sort of
sphere of things um you don't really question uh although morally um you um sort of think yeah okay
but but generally um if there's a job to do you just just get on and get on with it like you know
and try not to get involved in the uh the politics side of it slightly different now that you're out
um because you can be a bit more forthright but but while you're serving uh slightly different and
and bizarrely um people always assume that they the sas are the cutthroat you know the the assassins
of the government and and stuff like that um which is actually a false narrative really um because
guys will question um and and if people think that it's the wrong thing to do uh then they they won't
carry out uh you know they'll they'll push it off the chain and say listen this is bone uh you know
it's not not feasible or you know let's think about doing it uh doing it another way and and
and and that's what i found out about the sas very quickly is there um that it's not like the
normal military where you just follow a structure and you know the officer says this and this is
the way we're doing it uh we don't the the sas don't you know we we you know we sit down and
it's not having a chinese parliament and the reason being is the selection process brings up some
massive amount of experience um if that makes sense and you've got guys that you know maybe
you've done 10 years uh doing a certain job and we're about to you know having to use that asset
really and a mindset to do this job and and he's literally he's only been in the regiment 10 minutes
and and and you're right john you know what do you think you know you were you're a tanky you're
you know give us your opinion you know how how should we go about it like you know and and and
and it's great it's just a really mature attitude of having as opposed to being the old tick tock
tick tock you know this is how we're doing it lighter breast you know let's go for it type
thing it's uh especially quite refreshing and it's one of the reasons why people wanted to go there
in the first place like you know it's very to very mature attitude but believe you may if guys
certainly feel that yeah that is not the right thing to do uh then they won't do it uh you know
they'll they'll they'll do it in a certain other way and they'll actually tell the bosses listen
we're doing it that way we're going to be we're going to do it this way if it makes sense so so
it's not the stereotype cutthroat you know do this and it's not not like that at all
you used the phrase camp soldier earlier which i can totally relate to because i've never understood
how i could be you know up to my elbows in blood in some horrible wreck or fighting fire and then
they turn around and tell me that i gotta wear my shiny uniform and shiny shoes like those two just
don't go hand in hand yes when we're going to do some publicity event or a promotion event and i get
it more often than not sadly i wore all the fancy clothes and funerals and i fucking can't stand
bagpipes to this day because there's so many of them but uh you know but it is it's you know you
you do a job for a while and then i think some people just are able to step back and go what
why are we doing this this way you know and there's numerous examples but then you become a disruptor
and and so i can see the attraction to the special forces not saying i'm a tier one level firefighter
but just the way i think after a while is you know if if you're not able to make different a
difference within then you have to be outside and you have to disrupt and shake the tree so i think
that's great but i think that where change also comes is when people have humility and you used
a beautiful example there you know someone's been in the unit for a month but they've got 10 years
working in tank division or whatever it is that's a humility to say you've just got here but we
we respect your skill set where but there's a lot of arrogance and ego in the fire services like we
don't want to hear where you came from shut up this is the way we do it and that only adds to the
machine you know having the humility to say oh you were you were a builder and we've got this
unusual roof that we've got to cut in the middle of this fire i want to know you know what is this
roof safe to go on where should i cut you know i mean these are these are things i think that
i think that's maturity i think humility comes from maturity and arrogance is actually immaturity
yeah absolutely you know we we work very well with delta for delta um over in the states and
if i may say purely because that you know delta is actually based on sas um not the other way around
sas is based on that i make sure people know that too and uh and and very much very much aligned
very much the same mindset uh and someone always said to me uh who is the the best tier one unit
in the world without a shadow doubt sas and and i don't say that lightly but i say that is because
of the uh the diversity of the roles that we have to do uh which unfortunately delta delta don't you
know delta don't do the anti-terrorist team for instance we do um and other bits and bobs and the
the other question that keeps coming up about uh delta and um seal team six for instance um for me
delta every every time and the reason being is they're like us they are military people through
and through before they even think about doing delta you know these are these are seasoned
veterans from the airborne from the green berets special all you know all that type of area so
you know hardcore individuals before they even think about doing the the delta course and it's
exactly the same as as the regiment like you know so i think they they the top tier uh to obviously
for us we've got the sbs as well which are very akin to the sas because we do a joint election
but but without a shadow doubt you know sas tier one you know and i think if you were high known
heart if you were to ask delta and seal team six uh they would they would you know they would hate
to say it uh but just the diversity of the role and and just to give you an example so anti-terrorist
team uh six months come off that go to northern ireland go your hair nice and long two years on
the cover come back from that shave your hair off straight over the bozz near uh do some over there
come back from there uh go and join mi5 uh for two years massive dive you know in that little
cycle uh other two tier one units don't do that uh so for me yeah that's it i gotta say i i don't
know if you know who captain dale die is he's a marine that got into the the films and so he taught
the cast of you know saving private ryan bander brothers platoon and he i did stunts the whole
time i was a firefighter so my side gig and i worked on a stunt show in japan before i i moved
to the u.s and we were sitting after a little kind of mini boot camp that he gave us for the
same reason to train actors um and we were asking him you know just a bunch of questions about his
uh his service and and i forget how it came up but it was literally that you know who were the best
in a military you know war fighters in the world and he had a lot of admiration for the you know
the marines the general american forces but he said at the very top of your talking special forces
special operations he said the sas so and that's from captain dale die absolutely i i've got a lot
of time for for delta um we went over there uh before they did the the more traditional thing
but we we went over there to help them um try and try and do arctic warfare in wyoming of all places
but they're fantastic blokes like you know and and they are very much there there's the same mindset
uh they they do joint operations nowadays or they did do afghanistan iraq uh joint operations uh the
american military would uh the american government would actually trust the sas to do operations uh
and stuff like that so because they're very much aligned uh if i may say so but you know don't get
me wrong you know you know sail team six obviously do their their thing as well but with their sail
teams as they'll they'll you know they're they're navy they're navy that do a special course um but
they call their navy um whereas a delta lad you know has probably been 10 years as a green berry
like you know and before he even thinks about doing it so yeah you know for me america delta
every time we talked about mi5 we're all waiting on bated breath to see the next james bond is
going to be so talk to me about i mean obviously this is a complete you know shallow overview but
what is what is the role or you know what what is the diverse set of skills of someone working
in that world versus the uh the hollywood or no it's not hollywood pinewood studios action hero
that we all grew up with yeah it's funny because well i i personally don't know because mi6 is cia
mi5 fbi uh that's a simple way of doing it uh so we we got attached to mi5 really because it's
homeland security and and uh really just advisors i suppose um but they mi5 don't carry weapons
uh there was a program over here called spooks um i'm actually watching it now actually because
i'm because i'm really bored so i'm on uh i'm on netflix watching spooks not netflix on big bc
i play uh watching spooks and spooks you know they're all carrying weapons well they don't
carry weapons uh on uk mainland if and that's why really um we were working with the uh the
wrong people um and uh and when i sort of finished for two years there i said listen we need to be
working with either special branch or the anti-terrorist team um just so you know you've
got a weapon uh stuff like that but mi mi6 mi5 really uh initially uh they're uh they've got a
lot on their plate they're very underfunded on demand uh not very well paid to be quite frank
uh they've got a lot on their plate so their main role is surveillance really uh first and foremost
um and and picking up intelligence on on the the bad people that are coming in the country
um and and without a shadow doubt you know they're i would say they're losing the war
because you there are so many people getting through the loop now because we've got open
borders you know jumping a boat you're welcomed over here uh they'll put you in a hotel uh you
know even though you haven't got a passport but bizarrely you've got a brand new phone
um you know and you're all fighting age um but they're all welcomed uh which i i totally
disagree with uh if that makes sense so but that puts a lot of pressure really um later on
uh on what mi5 can actually achieve mi6 slightly different uh james bond thing but they're they're
the ones that work abroad uh and and do the the gatherings within these two organizations you
know they have different departments and we were attached to the surveillance department for mi5
uh you also have all the desk officers all the clever people that come out of universe they work
at their headquarters desk officers all that type of thing and also you know tapping up sources
for intelligence so so quite quite quite um sort of diverse um role uh but but to put it in perspective
mi5 fbi cia mi6 i was talking to one of my um friends who was former armed police unit in the
uk um asking about the troubles that we're seeing at the moment you know and obviously nothing is
black and white it's ever apparent that there's a group of extremists it doesn't matter if it's a
football game or you know this horrendous attack the moment there's an excuse they're going to go
and cause trouble and it's you know my brothers and sisters that are paying the price the police
officers the firefighters they're the ones that are holding the line and he was very you know he
kind of underlined hey yes you see some of them are in riot gear you've got police officers wearing
regular street gear no helmet holding the line against these thugs while they're trying to burn
down mosques or you know whatever it is that they're doing but he said the tension the underlying
tension is coming from what you just alluded to so talk to me about that because there's a middle
ground of course you know britain's always been a very altruistic compassionate country and i always
point out that we grew up with john craven's news round and blue peter and live aid and comic relief
i mean we're a beautifully you know altruistic nation i truly believe that or at least we used
to be but at the same time that you know don't mistake my kindness for weakness you know that
can be abused as well so where are we at the moment and then where is that middle ground that
we should be yeah fortunately we've lost the country really uh we've we've been sleepwalking
the uk has been sleepwalking to the abyss for many many years ever since for me when margaret
thatcher got ousted out and john major took over that was the the slippery slope and then you had
then you had tony uh tony blair take over um who opened all the borders and capitulated everything
and you know the good friday agreement which you know for some people brought about peace in northern
arlen but actually let all the bad guys out as part of that that agreement we've got military
guys being prosecuted still and well all the bad people that have done all the bad stuff are all
walking free uh so yeah there's a lot of resentment in this country and a lot of it is because of the
immigration policy uh well we haven't got one uh if that makes sense so that that really so that
the the riots that we had over the weekend which were actually quite bad some of them
um exactly the same as what you talked about so these are normal majority are normal uh concerned
citizens but unfortunately they um attracts a lot of the the halfwits uh the people that have got
no interest really uh on demonstrating for that cause they're more intent on uh stealing uh and
and just causing mayhem and stuff like that and that's just a society that we're living in um i
you know the font of everything uh you know lots of people blame that blame culture government and
successive governments uh have put the uk in a position now where actually we're very very
vulnerable um and with what's going on in the world at the moment you know we have a very diverse
um population at the moment um who are actually intent on harming each other um which is the way
it's going at the moment you've also got to throw in the mix you've also got you know what's going
on in the middle east which will have massive repercussions on what's happened what's going to
happen here what's going to happen in the u.s uh because your your borders are pretty much open
as well if that makes sense so uh but it's all down to weak leadership weak governments um not
um not not just this one now which just happens to be the weakest of the week um but it's been
successive government failures uh from from way back you know margaret thatcher shen shi went
that that's when it all started we've got a military uh that has been decimated you know we've
got um they can't recruit uh there's no retention there uh police going through exactly the same
uh and it's and it's the police on the front line that are taking all the all the hassle and and they
the the unfortunately with the police here at the moment you're damned if you do and you're
damned if you don't and what i mean by that is uh is that there's more threat from the inner
side of the police force than it is from someone throwing a rock at your head and the reason being
is if a policeman uh pulls out his weapon uh and shoots somebody he then automatically gets suspended
and then goes through a very rigorous and long uh judicial process as to you know why did it
but the people that are trying him and and people that are judging him uh aren't people that have
actually pulled the gun out and actually pulled that trigger so they've not been in the same
situation uh and i and i think that's wrong i think the only person that can judge someone
for pulling a trigger is another guy that's actually been in that same position and pulled
the trigger uh if that makes sense because because over here you know the poor old policeman he only
responds to the intelligences he's been given for instance so if he's approaching a car and the car
has been involved in an armed robbery before then he's going to approach that car with a bit of
caution if that makes sense and if somebody doesn't do something that he says do then there's a very
good chance that he's going to pull his weapon and pull the trigger uh if i might but because he's
responding to what he's been told on the radio uh and and and unfortunately um you know incidents
happen over here where a supposed innocent criminal gets shot and then all of a sudden
the poor policeman is the one that's um looking at prison time uh because they're not supported
um so because of that attitude um they and we have it with the with the military being tried over in
northern ireland still you know people that's 70 years of age um still being dragged back to a
court to to justify a shooting over in northern ireland uh they're not getting the backup that
they actually deserve and when you're a serving uh policeman uh and what again you know we're having
it here and when the military people that have deployed um an open fire in afghanistan they're
now going through that same process um but when when you're a policeman and you're serving and
you don't get that support um quite rightly it it puts them off thinking you know why why don't
have joined the police in the first place so that compounded with what's going on um yeah we're a
bit of a tinderbox moment um in the uk at the moment um but like i say it's compounded with
events that are going to happen over in the middle east
when i look back at so many areas where countries have struggled including the uk and the us
the resounding common denominator is the tyrannical few deliberately dividing the masses
therefore you create the enemy the enemy is the labor party or the democrats or the republicans
or the conservatives you know or the blacks or the whites or the muslims or the christians or the
gays or the straights and when you name it you know you're put into a pigeonhole and then you're
told that's the bad guy which is what the nazis did about the jews and look what happened so this
is the one thing i think that we need is a massive awakening as a nation to come together because you
look at for example after the gremfell fire in london the beautiful community that came together
all these faiths and colors and creeds you know that were trying to mitigate this horrendous tragedy
and help these poor people that were either you know they were grieving family members or they
lost their home at least and so i don't know if you see the same thing but when i look back i mean
one thing that saved maggie thatcher was the falklands war it unified the country you know
and it saved her political career at that time and you know there's another phrase that goes around
a lot in the states i miss 912 that community that came together in new york after that tried
to win the states especially in new york so what is your perspective of the deliberate division
in the uk political side that's driving because i mean it couldn't be more apparent during covid
so that you know england and or the uk and here but what is your perspective of that coming from
a tight-knit group of of men in this case that were arguably some of the best leaders in the military
yeah well i must have bet they because you look at the the average the average person on the ground
you know the the normal civilian when he when he points out that he's concerned about immigration
automatically he's deemed as extreme right wing automatically when you get common civilians
uh you know concerned civilians uh gathering together um they're deemed as an extreme right
wing organization and even the government has come out and said you know they're part of
the idf the you know english or the edf english defense thing or more who have actually been
disbanded many many years uh so they're not even not even part of it but when when you got the
when when you got the government now uh you know um stipulating that these people and and the press
and everyone else jumping on that bandwagon um the simple fact is is they're not listening to
the people on the ground and this is politicians through and through our our political system is
no no longer fit for purpose at all um you've got a labor party that that's won you know a record
amount of seats with the fewest votes even even less than what jeremy corbyn uh voted for jeremy
when he got hammered and then all of a sudden you've got all these people now very left wing
if that makes sense so so we're a divided society people on the ground right wing uh or as a
government's concerned right wing extremism um but you've got politicians very left wing
counselors very left wing um we are a very divided and when you when you get a vote that's divided
in an election a bit like bretsic when we had the bretsic vote because it was so close um it was a
divided city it's the same with when uh trump lost to biden that was a quite a close uh was quite a
close call really but what that does is it divides the divides the nation uh if that makes sense
because no matter what biden does the trump supporters not going to agree with it whatever
trump does the biden supporters are not going to agree with it it's a bit the same over here so
we're a very divided nation uh at the moment um compounded by ireland of all things so uh all the
immigration they're having massive immigration problems so uh immigrants are coming over here
uh illegals are coming into the uk going straight over to northern ireland and then walking across
the border uh into into southern ireland and uh and and it and it's causing a lot of discontent
by the local people uh but you know again people have got to take responsibility and government
you know get your act together uh yeah so as far as i'm concerned we've lost it we've lost
uh our country because it's very difficult now to to be able to turn it around uh so me and my
daughter you know we go off and we teach personal safety situations and awareness training to
youngsters and stuff like that really because the streets are not going to get any safer uh to be
honest and people need to be a bit more switched on uh a bit more aware uh of what's happening on
the ground really uh and and how to deal with it because you've got different cultures coming
over here you know the the uk that you knew has totally changed now um here in heriford little
sleepy heriford here you know all the barbers are owned by albanians or turks and most of the
coffee shops are owned by turks or albanians and the drug trade is run by turks or albanians you
know it's a completely uh it's a completely different um atmosphere and uh way of life over here than
what it used to be uh if that makes any sense yeah well i think it's funny when you use the
example you know trump and biden or trump and clinton you have these two sides and they're
ready to kill each other over them and then i think there's a lot of people in the middle when
you actually talk to and i'm i guess i'm in an echo chamber because everyone on here is served so
that makes you you know a little bit more altruistic you may put your life on the line
for complete strangers i think you're a certain kind of human but most normal people in the middle
going yeah there's another question we haven't asked how the fuck did any of these people
get on this ballot in the first place you know you're telling me that tony blair or john major
are the greatest minds in the uk or that donald trump is the greatest leader like i mean this is
fucking ridiculous if someone came outside and then just found themselves in either of our two
nations they would be like yeah your system is completely broken you need to totally reinvent
the way that you choose these people and in america and i use this term a lot you know we
say it's democracy it's demistocracy because you've got to be a millionaire and you've got to have
no ethics take the money from the weapons manufacturers and the cigarette companies and
all the all the other ones that are giving you and feeding your your campaign so until we the
people come together and say the way we're choosing these people is clearly wrong because
for example with 70 percent obese and overweight winston churchill said you can measure the
greatness of a nation by the health of its people well there we go so these are you know i mean the
the failed uh war on drugs prohibition that was born out of job justification and uh racism if
you look at the origin story of that so we've empowered the underworld we've got all these
kind of gang mentality we've got our children stabbing each other in the uk and stabbing other
children in the uk um you know and then we have this obesity epidemic and this mental health crisis
clearly the way that we're choosing these leaders is wrong so until we come together and
shrug off this kind of separatist extremist mentality we're gonna keep getting the same
thing over and over again and the definition of that is insanity yeah absolutely i'll tell you
what guy forks had the right idea uh and maybe we can understand
it and just get rid of parliament completely uh if that makes sense and there the reason being is
you know how can you tell a politician's lying he's talking uh moving none of them you know and they
they get voted in because you know they they say they're going to do this and quite recently
um we had the leader of the leader of the labor party giving the tories a hard time when they were
in power uh because they were thinking about taking away the pensioners winter um fuel that
fuel one yeah yeah absolutely first thing you know within one month of being in power
that's exactly what they've done like you know and they've given it and to and they're
sex to save money and then they go and give a massive pay rise to junior doctors and you know
and and and they politicians the amount of money that they they earn uh not that they earn it to
be quite frank but the the amount of expenses that they they can pull in and you know people
with two houses oh it's just it's sickening uh but nothing changes absolutely you know we have the
how the young kid is stabbed to death uh by a black uh individual who came from original
family came from uganda i think something like that uh rwanda yeah absolutely and anyway so he uh
he sort of stabbed these poor kids and and then also actually yeah mental health issues hold on
no it isn't you know don't keep don't keep playing the mental health um card uh on people that slaughter
other people same as they same as the the guy again the black guy that actually tried to
stab the police uh sorry the military uh guy uh outside his house really and it's his wife that
came out and saved his life uh but again that you know they're trying to trying to sweep that away
because it didn't follow their narrative uh if that makes sense of you know the government
narrative so an easy way of calling it is rather than upsetting people uh let's call it you know
a sort of you know i've i've been into wars and everything like you know i i would never ever
ever think about you know pulling the old mental health uh card uh if i may if you're a bad guy
you're a bad guy admit to it own it and flip and get yourself locked away like you know um but
where yeah we're very yeah we're very divided and and a lot of people are resentful now are
politicians they don't trust them uh they're born liars um our system is completely broken uh and i
think i think it's copied in the u.s as well uh where people just you know they've just given
up on it you know i didn't even bother voting uh this year um because i just knew it was a
waste of time like you know uh and uh and and sadly you know but we're we're divided we're
a nation in trouble believe you me we are a nation and and it's because of this sleepwalking to where
we are now um can we recover not in my lifetime i don't think um it's going to take some massive
to be able to turn this around because you've got you've got it's a bit like northern ireland
in the old days where catholics and protesta didn't interest each other uh very dangerous volatile
environment um we're going to get you know all it takes is for a few people uh either either brits
to stab and kill and some muslims on the street or vice versa and and it'll ignite um and and it
was spread from city to city and bear in mind that some of the cities uh in in the uk are not
actually brick cities anymore you know rochdale is more of a muslim city um london's going that
way uh very much a muslim um enclave uh i suppose you would call it um same as other places as well
like you know so so we are bradford another one yeah it's uh trying times unfortunately uh in the
in the uk as as in a lot of places in europe as well yeah i mean with the mental health thing i
mean i think all malicious murder that is a mental health issue but that doesn't dismiss what happened
it's not the sole cause and again if there's division and then you've got the kind of lone
wolf mentality and i don't know what if he was groomed by any extremist organization for that
particular thing because it seems like such a bizarre target to choose in the first place but
i mean you you have people who are vulnerable to being swayed one way or another i mean great
example fucking adolf hitler for example little shit bag that he was um you know and that can
cause absolute devastation and i think this is the thing even you know with this division is that
there are so many people from different backgrounds and you know colors and religions you know i think
most of us are so proud to be british so proud to be american i mean you know i walk outside my
front door where i live and all colors and creeds and our kids play together and we say hi and we
walk our dogs but if you allow yourself to be divided that hateful extremist few are going to
project their views on everyone and then you are going to see this division like you said and this
projection of race war in america like most places we all get on really well because we see the
humanity in each other but if you allow yourself to buy into that and now you've got the you know
the clan member on one side and the black panther member on the other and now yeah like you said
you've you've got this this war escalating where most of the innocents are going to get caught up
just like they did in world war two and all these other conflicts and you know we seem doomed to
allow history to repeat itself because we are constantly allowing this tyranny to propagate
over and over again yeah it's funny you know because we were involved in bosnia and we saw
the real bad side of ethnic cleansing you know from different divisions and that lot
and i always have flashbacks with that one thinking flipping oh just imagine that happening in the
uk like you know with you know brits and muslims and blacks and all sorts of going against each
other like you know it's just just manic but as i as i keep going on about you know it's it's
successive governments that have got us to this point and and but nothing will change absolutely
not you know so we had the three kids that were sort of nothing changes and knife crime still
going up same as rural crime still going up and we're here in britain we're very we're very
reactive mindset uh to criminals anything else and and you know we don't do anything until that
summer actually happens to us and then we'll think about doing it rather than being quite rightly
proactive and that includes the police so the police when they were getting stoned and bottled
and everything else um you know you just look at the telly going flipping get stuck in there get
get the old buttons out and start cracking some skulls and then put them put them on the back
foot like you know uh but they weren't they unfortunately they're following a policy that
actually puts the police in harm's way sadly um you know because they um you know when you when
you're getting when you've got no uh reactive mindset um or no proactive mindset sorry um it
does put people in harm's way so yeah trying trying times unfortunately uh here uh europe um
predominantly here because you know we're with the uk because we're such a small nation but
massively overpopulated uh there's no real you know i live out in the rural heritage here so nice and
quiet uh but certainly in the inner cities you know there's some parts of the uk um i actually
found more intimidating than walking around legos uh or baghdad or wherever um purely because of the
you know the divisions within that within that city like you know the dynamics changing uh when's
the last time you were in the uk mate matter of interest um actually i only i've been back
of several times because i had some family issues to mitigate so i've been back three times in the
last year i took my son back um god only two months ago now so recently right silly question
uh are you a bath supporter rugby um i again i grew up in the 80s watching i mean not so much
in rugby and football watching people stab each other over 11 dudes in short shorts so i never
really got into supporting the team but yeah when i was younger obviously i had a you know an affinity
to bath rugby but i don't watch rugby that much i only watch football every two years i just watch
the euro and then i'll watch the world cup in a couple years but yeah i like i like playing
sports more than watching sports yeah well i must because me and my daughter are staunch leicester
tiger fans uh rugby um and they the reason being is it's football the mentality of these people
uh that watch football is totally different to the mentality you know of uh of watching rugby
like you know um you know the different world different mindset and we're fairly local to
glosster uh so when gloss are playing the tigers we made my daughter go down there uh annoy all the
glosser fans with our leicester shirts and standing there and it's called the shed and we stand in with
all the glosser fans annoying them because we always win apart from last year um but it's great
because it's really good banter you don't get that football um you know it's very tribal um
and uh and you know never never again never again would i watch football well speaking of your
daughter let's transition from you know your military career into what you're doing now
um and then let's talk about the start with with the the safety of young people especially in
schools yeah so i two years ago i was in the hag i was head of security for a company called sb i'm
offshore for 15 years initially based in lagos nigeria then moved up to monaco sipping my pink
champagne and then three years there i was on the verge of resigning because i didn't like monaco
to be honest um you know when you're a military guy monaco is a bit too quiet so they moved us
up to the hag we got an office in amsterdam at skipple at the airport uh so i lived in the hag
didn't want to didn't want to live in amsterdam amsterdam's a bit like london good for a weekend
not so good for their being there all the time so i i lived in the hag so seven years later so two
years um last may or two years may gone by um i i just decided that i wanted to do something
different uh so wrote a book uh called life on the edge um unfortunately the author died um
um so we class it as a co-author uh so it's co-written book uh but the co-writer
and nicol johnson uh she passed away uh about 10 weeks ago now uh but she was very ill uh for the
for about nine months before that so we put the book on hold really uh because i wanted to finish
it with her um and it's a book about helping people uh it's not a typical bravo s e f bravo
two zero type book um it's it's more akin to um the the personal side of an sas guy you know the
marriage side of it and you know the kids and all that type of stuff and and using a sort of biography
type mentality uh is just going through the the hiccups that we have in life and and how you
circumnavigate it you know plan b that didn't work okay don't worry about it no dramas plan b
uh we'll do this based on some of the stuff that we went through uh and unfortunately so she passed
away so there's a young lady uh from scotland who knows nickel uh who is going to finish the book so
the first chapter is going to be um a remembrance type chapter uh about nickel and then the final
chapter is all about what me and my daughter have been doing for the last or 10 months or 12 months
or whatever uh if i may and then then it'd be good to go so the timeline is is we're hoping to get it
finished by march next year to coincide with the hay festival uh because the hay festival is just
down the road from here uh so i would be classed as a local local author uh which would be great
so so we've done that that's done and dusted um but on the on the other side uh is because i've
been in the security industry for 22 years um i'm not a big fan of security companies um
so i decided to start my own security company up um but it's it's called hawks and co and it's me
and my daughter at the moment and i've got three boys in the military so hopefully that they will
come and they will come and join us at some stage uh and uh and they the the idea by it uh was to
help youngsters um adults um vulnerable people uh so we do personal safety and situational awareness
um and then my daughter does breakaway uh and restraint stuff and all that so the physical
side of it my daughter does and the reason being is my daughter is uh she's of the same ilk as my
three boys uh but she's a girly girly uh she's got a fearsome left hook um and uh and she's very
good at what she does uh if i may because she's actually taught by some very good people uh who
sort of took her under a wing and and she's more believable uh you know when you're when you're
teaching kids uh personal safety situation awareness so one in good being an excess as guy
uh but the kiddies don't actually uh relate to you they'll relate to keeling so having that soft side
uh if that makes sense so when it comes to all the physical side of it she does it
because they can see how easy it is to do a breakaway uh by using the body mechanics
because self-defense is not for everyone um you know and and what we're trying to do is we're
trying to we're trying to give confidence to everyone and you can only teach certain
individuals self-defense and for them to take it in and actually for them to practice it on the ground
different in a gym uh if that makes sense so uh with breakaway it's more it's more acceptable
for them to you know okay if someone's strangling me yes i can push the elbows in and i can
force them away but it's all good to um keeping yourself out of trouble so break away move away
if that makes sense it's not about getting into to trouble so so trying to make it more believable
really and more realistic for the average normal person uh if that makes sense and and and that
and that's gone really well at the moment but on the on the back of that um we are trying to get
into the rural farm industry uh reason being when i did my undercover days and and working with mi5
you know we we got very good at breaking into places so on the back of that covertly uh so if
you can covertly break into somewhere uh it means you're better than the people that normal normal
you know it's easy to smash a window and break in but trying to covertly get in there so we're
very good at what we do which is why we're going to be going down there and talking about
penetration testing of organizations um because we're you know we're pretty good so um so to help
a farmer so i live on a farm uh and it's the old uh poacher term gamekeeper mentality and unfortunately
here uh in the uk it's the same as farms all around the world there is zero security culture
on a farm you can walk on any farm with a with a high visibility vest uh with nfu the national
farming union logo on the back wave at somebody and then walk over to a car and steal the car and
drive away reason being all the cars all the keys have got uh all the cars have got keys in the
ignition because that's the culture uh of the the farming industry and that's why they're deemed as
very easy targets um you know the crime rate over in the uk for farmers is astronomical um
because that you know the criminals are very very clever in them you know they're not in jail for
very good reason they're good at what they do um and unfortunately and i excuse the pun uh but
the farms are deemed as cash cows really to uh criminals uh because they're they're easy and they and farmers work really really hard you know they they keep the economy going
um they don't have a lot of money so the way we go about helping them is um we'll go and do a little
security assessment with them which is not going to cost them a penny um and then we will all the
recommendations for security we'll actually do with them you know we'll help you do this you know
and because if you give a farmer a lot of security recommendations you might as well write that in
swahili and give it to him because he's going to read it and not interested and if there's a massive
bill at the end of it he ain't going to do it because these farmers don't have a lot of money
so what we're trying to say is listen insurance companies nfu you employ me any farm that gets hit
um you know uh rural crime attack on it uh we'll go and help them because what happens at the moment
is a farmer will call the police to say that there's a robbery the police won't respond because
they're very undermanned and underfunded so they'll just give a crime report uh number
they'll put the phone down they'll then um the insurance companies will replace a tractor that's
been stolen six months later brand new tractor stolen again um because that cycle doesn't change
so what we're what we're saying is listen you employers to any farm that gets broken into
we'll go down there and we'll improve the security by doing a bit of training with them spend two or
three days down there a bit of training trying to change that culture that that security culture
improve the security of the farms um you know make sure that they that what happened last time is
going to happen again give them confidence about dealing with um confrontation uh because over here
uh the police automatically say listen if there's a confrontation uh just go and lock yourself in
your barn or go and lock yourself in your house and call the police but the police ain't going to
respond uh so that doesn't give the farmers any confidence at all uh so you know so we me and my
daughter deal with confrontation and and how you can escalate it or majority of the time is how to
de-escalate it uh if need be uh and all we're doing is trying to give the farmer and his family a bit
more confidence uh if that makes sense um so that right so the cost to the farmer zero nothing at
nothing at all so if it's not going to cost the farmer anything because you know what you're using
you're using all the assets on the farm but in a way that you're you're going to improve the security
you see cc green camera up there is pants let's move it to a different location lighting really
poor let's move your light over here um better lateral thinking right you don't want people to
go into that field let's go and get these planks of wood stick a load of six inch nails in there
camouflage it up no one's going to go in that field or if they do they're certainly not going
to get back out again a bit of lateral thinking uh if that makes sense and they're all at zero cost
and and so if a farmer reads a report and he knows it's not going to cost him anything to improve his
security there's a good chance that he's going to improve his security because it's it's of no cost
when you give a farmer something that's going to cost him 40 grand and 40 000 pounds to improve
then they're not going to do it they're going to rip it up and you know i can't afford that
and it so nothing changes uh if i make sense but trying to get that across to the farming industry
is very difficult because they're very set in their ways uh they're very reliant on uh the
rural crime units coming to the rescue um but the rural crime units are very undermanned and very
underfunded you know there's i was down wilkshire not that long ago uh giving a presentation to the
rural crime units down there and they've got eight people to cover the second biggest county
in england it's just madness you know and you and also the the farmers don't have a lot of
um respects probably a bit of a harsh word but they they don't have confidence uh in the police's
ability to be able you know when when you ring up say i've lost 40 000 blah blah blah
and the police come back say uh okay here's the crime number you know that they're not going to
come out to to investigate and and and again all them all them bridges that were there before
uh are slowly collapsing if that makes sense so yeah we we we just feel that we by putting an arm
around people uh we can we can help people now i've been in the industry too long uh to worry
about you know how much money am i going to make for doing this which is what the security companies
do believe you me first and foremost for the security company how much can we make by approaching
this guy first and foremost it should be the other way around how can i help you what's your budget
yeah we'll we'll make it work uh if that makes sense you know we we quite recently i went down
to dartmoor to help a farmer down there and a good friend of mine said mek how much is it going to
cost to come down i said listen tell the farmer it's going to he can pay for the fuel uh to get
me down there and and make me a bacon sandwich when i get there and we spent five hours on the farm
improving his security um quite recently we got asked by the security industry uh they they said
mek can you run six sessions with your daughter doing this that and the other um how much is it
going to cost and i went how much are you paying the other people and she she said this i said well
that that'll do me you know if you're paying people that who am i to say no i i want this amount
you know because we're all doing we're all in the same game of helping people uh so it's it's trying
to be pragmatic and realistic um when you're dealing with because people don't have a lot of money
uh in security to be honest schools for instance don't have big budgets so work within you know
work with the schools uh and work within budget uh if that makes sense rather than trying because
you know if you say to a school um this is how much it's going to cost you they'll bulk they'll
bulk straight away and so ultimately the people that you want to help don't get the help that they
they really need um because the person in charge can't afford to can't afford to do it and and that
seems to be the problem so that's why we started uh hawks and co uh to uh ready to help people
i grew up on a farm in like i said in caution and uh it butted up against a um mod base so ironically
we were talking about you know ireland earlier when they were bombing on the homeland um on the
mainland excuse me you know we had to sweep the car for bombs we had the little stick with the
mirror and which is you know awesome as a small child who just hope that you're not going to get
blown up on the way to school but i when i think about the farm you know there were a lot of uh
soft areas because you know you haven't yeah you might have a fence but i mean these fences you can
climb in in a moment but when i think about what was good though aside from the shotguns that we
had in the house was the german shepherds that we had roaming everywhere and they were phenomenal
deterrents so taking that you know much larger scale rural model which you know not many people
are probably listening are on a farm at this moment what are the principles that you apply
to any sort of security whether it's a farm or whether it's a flat because when i think about
as a firefighter there's so many facades of security and i know for example the fire alarms
and then you know security alarms for the police department are yeah we will respond
non-emergency but 99 percent of the time they're bullshit so it really creates complacency when i
think about windows and doors i mean you know we have to get in to go get the people we know how
how flimsy they actually are in real life so what are some of the principles that maybe people aren't
thinking about that they can apply to their you know whether it's like i said an apartment a flat
or their farm that maybe are contrary to what these security companies are selling them with
their alarms and their cameras and all the things yeah think like a criminal think like a criminal
and and the reason the reason i say that and that's all part of this security culture i'm not a fan
of cctv monitoring devices on farms until the farmer has actually got security culture because
you'll spend thousands putting all these gadgets and then the farmer will leave the gate open
uh if that makes sense and it's just a waste of money and bear in mind that you've got 20 people
working on a farm maybe so that's 20 potential cctv units walking around but they just need to
be guided in the right so for anyone anyone doing anything you know before you can get out of the
car just think um how a criminal will operate so when i'm locking my door at night uh you know when
you know when i'm leaving you know i'm stood outside would a criminal be able to get in here
have i left a window open no yes go in there shut the window and stuff like that uh it's all about
you know putting yourself in the shoes of the bad people uh because if you can think like a criminal
you can you can deter uh and and you know what what they'll can to what they're they're about
to do if that makes sense and that's really the the simplistic uh approach really uh of doing it
but always always have a security culture about you before you even think about investing in lots
of money which like i say is totally wasted um if you've got people that have got no security
culture uh because they'll just leave the gate open uh and again that's my dig at security companies
because they you know they they make a lot of money uh by recommending this that and the other
but they tend to invest they don't invest in the actual individual um who's supposedly going to
operate and that and that's over here uh rural crime actually is at its peak between one o'clock
in the morning at four in the morning they've all got masks on cctv wasted time um alarm goes off
wasted time no one's going to respond at four o'clock in the morning or three o'clock in the
morning because the police are not operating uh so no one's going to respond so that doesn't worry
them monitoring devices not worried no no one's going to respond to it uh so all that gadgetry
just absolutely goes out the window so right here we go i'm gonna i'm gonna break into this barn oh
right okay so they've locked it you know they've had the the the fore the foresight ready to to
actually lock it uh and stash things away and and this that and the other and that's what we're
trying to that's what we're trying to get across to the farmers really is is do the basics right
because at the moment security for a farmer is a chore and when you've got 50 chores to do on a farm
uh safety and security tend to be at the bottom of the list but if you can get a security culture
going it no longer becomes a chore that becomes second nature and so you know taking the key out
of the ignition becomes second nature a bit like a bit like the fire service a bit like us you know
i teaching uh situation awareness we try to explain to people my situation awareness has come from 50
years working in the security industry and the military surviving battlefields blah blah blah
you know all this stuff um that's that's where i am with my situation awareness you can't read a book
uh you can't listen to someone talking and become situationally aware um you could you understand
the theory behind it and it comes it really comes with you then going out practicing it uh you know
every single day before it becomes second nature so as you step outside of your door you look left
and right and just see what's on the street before you go to it before as you walk into your car to
your car to get in it your keys are out and they're in your hand so as soon as you get to your car you
can lock your door get in and you're away if that makes sense but females especially um and i always
have a dig at females on the thing uh car park car parks are a hive especially at night time for
criminality and uh and unfortunately for the ladies uh you know they they have huge handbags
um and it literally takes them 10 minutes to find their car keys criminals know that you know i mean
and so if you can get into the habit ladies uh walk into your car with your car key in your hand
so as soon as you're at the car bang doors open in locked and away you go uh it's doing the basics
right uh if that makes sense and just thinking uh thinking like a criminal uh is probably the
the easiest way of uh of sort of doing it i want to hit one more quick topic and then close this
out because we've been talking almost two and a half hours i want to be mindful of your time
let you let your dogs out um but when we are looking reactively because right now that's where
you know we are in the uk and i'm not going to go on the the personal weapon side because i know
in the uk especially people's hands are so tied as far as what they can carry but the armed police
have had on the show um talking about the the lack of support like you said the the cases against
some of these officers and the massive kind of hand in of uh of that specialty by a lot of the
the met police um what needs to happen as far as the armed response i i came from england to america
had a very kind of you know anti-gun mentality when i first got here and i'll be completely honest i
did weapons training you know i didn't own a gun but i did weapons training but then i was locked
into my son's school his elementary school when they had their first ever code red actual code
red they thought someone was coming in to kill children and i realized how fucking vulnerable
these children these teachers everyone that was in there and i was literally thinking about pulling
the guillotine off the paper no guillotine machine and like all right let's say i've got i got a blade
that's what i can and who knows what he or she has got if they come through the door thank god it was
uh not a false alarm but the person never actually did what they threatened to do but it really
opened my eyes and now i've i've owned a glock and i've had one for a long time and my my mind
shifted not from i'm going to walk around like john wane but i am a firefighter and a paramedic
i have a diverse toolbox well in that i need to have something that counters someone that walks
into a taylor swift you know yoga studio and start slashing six to ten year olds and you know a
ballistic vest and a gun are a great way to oppose that so what is your kind of philosophy on on what
armed policing at the moment ultimately it would be beautiful if we could reduce the weapons in the
uk and get back to the environment that you and i grew up in but at this moment in 2024 what should
the armed policing model look like yeah it's uh i'm a big believer now i've been in mine i've done a
lot of undercover stuff uh if that makes sense so armed and my last two years in the scs was i used
to run the cqb so close quarter battle so for guys going undercover uh strike and operations if that
makes sense so so i i'm a big believer now that uh we've gone past the point in the uk of people
not being armed and when you have so many people now uh for instance that guy with a knife uh you
can't you can't take on criminals that are more heavily armed than what the police are um but you
can't just say right policeman here we go uh here's your weapon you know the whole concept needs to
change um you know all the police in northern ireland carry weapons uh now northern ireland
call me old-fashioned uh is part of the uk so why can't we copy that model and bring it over
into into england scotland wales and stuff like that because we it's it's now beyond really uh
asking the police uh to put their lives on the line with a baton or with a taser when you're up
against a guy who's got a weapon and when i mean a weapon i also mean a sword as well uh bearing
in mind that a knife and a sword can do just as much damage uh than a than a shot uh a shotgun or
whatever like you know so yeah i'm i'm all for uh the police in the uk being armed uh but it
it has to change because if you once you pull that trigger um and we had a philosophy really uh
slightly different you know sas mentality um we had a philosophy that if you were going to pull
your weapon um never think twice um and always always have in the back of your mind that it's
always better to be tried by 12 and carried by six um and if in doubt you know take them on like
you know uh unfortunately with the police here uh a lot of the police have been handing their weapons
in um purely because internally uh you know they're damned if they do and damned if they don't like
you know and it's a it's a nasty culture knowing that if you do pull your weapon uh that you're
not going to get any support so i'm all for arming the police but you also have to bring in a culture
of you know like like in our days in the sas and you have to support that individual
and no matter what when he pulls the trigger you have to support that individual as to why
he pulled the trigger sometimes you you're going to get you're going to get a um accidents that
happen and we understand that um but you know that's not damn someone instantly uh just because in
his mindset uh he was taken on uh taken on a bad guy like you know so it's yeah i'm all for arming
but it's very easy to say that uh it's very difficult to get that that mentality
and culture within the police force uh right you know so let's let's get you know let's get northern
ireland uh police people over into the uk to to try and establish that culture but we're we're
way past that that point now uh of police being unarmed on the street you know it's just madness
it just puts the it doesn't give the the police any confidence at all uh you ask a policeman to
walk down a dark alley uh and uh you know there's possibility of two or three guys down there that
may have a weapon call me old-fashioned but the policeman ain't going to walk down there
um and uh because you haven't given him the tools and the confidence to to do that like you know uh
so yeah so that's my philosophy right is uh is we should all be on all the police should be armed
um but it's not that simple um you know it needs to the whole culture uh needs to uh needs to change
uh to support the police i you know i do feel feel for the police uh they're in a real sticky
situation they're following a real guff completely guff policy uh you know you look at metropolitan
police at the moment the metropolitan police don't think for themselves unfortunately the the lord
mayor uh dictates how they do their policy that then goes to the commissioner uh the metropolitan
commissioner who then filters that down to the the actual actual people on the ground like you know
and that's why you see uh the very softly softly approach to people waving banners uh
supporting terrorism people carrying knives uh or swords um as you know if it's part of a uh part
of a protest or whatever like you know so um yeah it needs to change completely but yeah arm them
one of the the armed police response guys made a really good point if we don't support excuse
me if we don't support those teams which i know sometimes train you know with you guys i mean
they're trained by the most elite war fighters on the planet um and we don't support them then
eventually as you said they'll give guns to all the police officers are going to have to and now
you've got you know the best police officers but also the worst and we're all completely familiar
with those videos of our worst police officers in the uk and and the u.s and you're giving them a
gun what is the likelihood of a bad shoot after that why are we not supporting the people that
are highly trained and holding them to a high standard before we have a complete you know
saturation of firearms which is going to amplify the possibility that one of your loved ones is
shot by mistake by some incompetent you know police officer holding a firearm because now
it's out of necessity rather than proactively training the elite teams and supporting them in
their actions yeah absolutely you know and that's all to do with that recruiting thing in the first
place because at the moment they the way the recruits are picked in the police force it's
more geared towards education as opposed to you know knowledge on the ground streetwise you know
young kids from the estate some of these kids on the estate would make fantastic police officers
because often know what the criminals get on with when you've been you know sent to university for
years your college university you're not really that you know a street copper if that makes sense
and so they the whole policy of it so if you're if you're thinking right now you know we need to
edge our way toward not only specialist units within the police but everybody now is going to
be armed then then that all comes down to a different way you recruit your people like you
know it's a bit like the military and you know you need people that are a bit more robust and
you know and and change it so it's not a case of let's arm everybody now and and gonna but no the
whole the whole needs to change but unfortunately we're you know not only the specialist units the
armed response units um you know because they can only take some so long we do a lot of active
shooter training i was in houston about 18 months ago doing a company over there um because they
like the brits because we're a bit more down to earth um if you american security guy yeah
ballistic doors but yeah you know seven floor of an office building ballistic door here ballistic
door they are going to cost you a million dollars uh no you don't you don't need any of that crap
get rid of that um which is why you know the centers over there like you know but more down
to earth um but when we you know when we we we do the active shooter training type stuff it's all
geared to um uh trying to uh trying to one try to get away uh if i may say but we follow the american
approach um because we know over here they do a murdering terrorist attack training active shooter
um well they call it murderous but it's all geared to a police response now you and i know
that any any terrorist incident that's going to occur or an active shooter is going to be done
dusted and finished before the police turn up if that makes sense so you need to everybody needs
to be a bit more robust um you know how we go about uh how how to protect ourselves our loved
ones and everything else so we follow the american thing of run high fight um over here it's run high
tail um run high fight is how we we do it because we're not bothered now i'm not thinking about a
police response and bear in mind how you respond when the police turn up can actually get you shot
or the police themselves uh if that makes sense so uh yeah so it's all so slightly different
mentality um now we've got a thing called martin's law um it's not a martin's law so this is this you
know after manchester uh bombing um there's a young lady whose son died in it um and uh and she's been
pushing for this martin's law good honor god bless her for doing it but that was seven years ago
mate seven years ago seven years in the night and it's still not been sort of pushed through and
everything else uh which is ridiculous so since the paris attacks 2015 uh we've been all around
the world teaching all our officers active shooter what to do if you're involved in terrorist
incident and the way we go about it is when they when the police teach it um go down when the
police teach it what they do is they they pick certain individuals within the company to play a
key role you know if as a you know a code red as you call it play a key role now that's great
until that key player gets the back of his head shot off you know what i mean so we don't do that
we teach everybody from the cleaner to the ceo to the principal to everybody gets taught what
their options are when there's an active shooter and what you know what to do this that and the
other and the reason being is what you're what you're hoping on the day uh is somebody comes to the
fall really um because people that think their leaders are great up until someone starts shooting
at them um because you don't know how you're going to react until you've actually been shot at uh and
that's true so rather than just teaching you know certain individuals self-important people that
that you know yeah i'm going to be the one no you're not so it's a matter of you know making
sure that everybody goes through the training so that they everybody understands what their options
are and then you just go for it and then hope on the day that that it all works out if that
might and that's all you can do but you've got you've got to give people the tools and they
the knowledge of understanding what their options are when a code red gets gets called
and just otherwise you've got people running around like like headless chickens
and and nothing gets done like you know but but you you were right alluded to there you know
if you can't if you can't escape find yourself a weapon you know a fire extinguisher the guillotine
blade as you mentioned there is perfect uh but do something uh because doing nothing uh so if you've
got a nice big room like this and a guy walks in the door with an ak-47 there's 20 of you in there
uh and there's no exit and you do nothing at all 20 people dead but if if one of two of you decide
to go for it and try to overpower him and three or four people get killed doing that but you know
they managed to overpower him that means 16 people managed to survive like you know so having that
mentality uh is how you uh get yourself through uh through adversity uh if that makes sense um
yeah it's a difficult way it's not the nicest subject to teach but unfortunately in this day
now especially in the states um it's something that everybody needs to understand uh and just
know what your options are and it's it's not geared towards specific individuals um you know
a cleaner is just as adept at surviving a shooting incident than any security guy or any
ceo or any big wig manager and sometimes it's that cleaner that actually comes to the fore
and you know because they the poor old manager has just been shot or you know has suddenly realized
it's not nice being shot at so i'm out of it uh if that makes sense so yeah it's um we're trying to
keep a yeah a level head on things uh especially especially subjects that are not nice to to teach
but you know people need to understand it absolutely well i think it's a beautiful place to round off
so for people listening you got the book that will be coming out um and then you've got hawks and co
your businesses that's kind of growing and growing now where are the best places online to find you
on online itself or on social media yeah we're very loud and vocal uh linkedin um on the first
and foremost um there's a a nice person called sebastian uh who's over in jersey who does all my
social media for linkedin not linkedin instagram and all that sort of stuff so so he does that um
we we're actually doing quite a lot quite a few podcasts i've actually just got two emails
from american companies uh that want to do podcasts with us because of what they've seen before
uh it's a bit like you you you got our attention obviously uh because you saw one of our podcasts
um and then and and that's really how and for us you know i like doing podcasts purely because
it gets us out there it you know gives us a voice uh to to explain what we're what we're all about
really uh and uh but hopefully by the next uh you know i know my hair's getting a bit long now and
i'm on tuesday tomorrow i'll be down there getting it cut but not short and i'm just going to get the
curls cut out well i want to thank you so so much um we've gone all over the place kind of and
obviously there's a lot of conversation about you know the the war on terror that kind of period of
military history but to dive into the forklings of some of the other conversations and then
your perspective on you know the division and the violence and you know school safety and farm
safety has been incredible so i want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and
coming on the behind the shield podcast today uh my absolute pleasure and i'm just surprised that
they the dogs were well behaved that got me a little fight i've got two french bulldogs and
they they can be uh they like plenty of attention