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Welcome to episode 494 of Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to
welcome on the show Denise Olson.
Now Denise is a nurse, a yoga teacher, and she's the widow of Jeff Olson,
one of the 343 firefighters killed on 9-11.
So we discuss a host of topics from her early life, her perspective on health
care, meeting Jeff and his incredible story into the fire service, the events
of that day, and then also processing that grief and raising children after
such traumatic event.
Before we get to that conversation, as I say, every single week, please just take
a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this podcast on.
Subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every five star rating this show gets truly does elevate this podcast, making
it easier for others to find.
This is a free library of almost 500 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help pay it forward and share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get them to everyone else who
needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you, Denise Olson.
Enjoy.
Well, Denise, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time
to come on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you for having me.
It's an honor to be here.
So it's crazy because we've been connected online for a while now, and
then we just had a little discussion prior to this.
And I realized that we're connected a number of ways through OEW operation
during Warrior, through the Give team here in Orlando, through GoRuck.
So I'm really looking forward to this conversation because obviously the
awesome humans that you surround yourself with seem to be the similar
humans that I do.
I know.
I think that there's always a golden thread, I like to call it, that brings
certain people into your life.
And somehow, even though everyone says the world is so big, it becomes really
small when you have a specific passion or focus.
Yeah.
Well, especially, and I've been talking about this a lot recently, when you
find yourself amongst groups that we just mentioned, and yet you turn the
TV on and there's division and hate and everything, and you're like, no,
yes, those people exist.
I don't know why you're giving them all this TV time, but there are so many
great people if you just, as you said, choose who you actually spend time with,
choose who you get your information from.
You'll be amazed how many inspiring and kind and compassionate human beings
are in this country and then overseas as well.
I think that if people turn their TVs off and spend time on their TV,
and spend more time actually getting to know the stories of other individuals,
there wouldn't be so much division.
I don't, that entire period of, I mean, I guess, quarantine, the politics around it,
I was very specific in how I curated my social media, who I spoke to, the
conversations that I had, the conversations I avoided, because it's important.
Even though we're only one person, I'm only one person, I believe that
there's a ripple effect in everything.
So if I can hold my space as an individual and just come from my heart,
not looking at race, gender, or any of these other things that they use to try
to divide us, then it just spreads out organically.
You don't even have to try.
Yeah, I agree completely.
Well, I want to get into that little conversation at a certain point in this
chronological walkthrough that we're going to do, but let's start at the very
beginning. Well, firstly, before we even do that, where on planet Earth are we
finding you today?
Today, I'm at home in Manisquam, New Jersey.
Brilliant. Okay, so then let's start at the beginning.
So where were you born?
And then tell me about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many
siblings?
Okay, I was born on Staten Island, suburb of New York City.
I have one sister, one brother, I'm the oldest.
My parents, my father is a financial person.
He works in, he's retired now, but he worked in a lot of major hospitals
throughout New York.
And my mom did medical billing.
She was a manager.
When she worked, she retired at a pretty young age.
So my family dynamic, I would say that we were average middle class family.
I went to Catholic school my entire life.
And when I say entire life, I don't just mean grammar school, but I went to
Catholic high school.
I went to Catholic nursing school, which will come into play later, which is
why I bring it up.
I call myself a reformed Catholic.
Yeah.
So I guess we were really average.
I don't have too much to say about my family.
My parents went to work every day.
We went to school and we didn't really do a lot of traveling.
It was kind of like, we just went outside and played with our friends.
There's not a whole lot to say about it.
So, well, an interesting perspective.
So you have a father who works on the financial side of hospitals, and
just as a complete tangent, I love tangents.
That's why I like these organic walkthroughs.
Did he ever talk about any perspective of the pros and cons of the way we do
medicine in this country?
And again, I'm not demonizing or anything, but there's definitely a
profit-based element that is different to the national health that I came
from in England.
And what I've seen through my eyes is sadly when, you know, I think
when there's money to be made, sometimes you deviate from health and
you focus more on the bottom line.
Without loading the question, did he ever have any kind of philosophies
or perspectives on what we do well and what we could maybe do better
in the US specifically?
It's an interesting question because my dad is a numbers guy and it was,
you know, profits the name of the game for him, period.
I think that that changed when, or I should say he softens around the
edges with that when they both retired and you're sort of relying on
the health care system as it is.
You know, he doesn't, they both have, I believe it's Medicare, right,
for the elderly and having to pay for your own insurance if you want
to have a better plan and what's offered to you and however that works.
I know that that was a struggle for them.
Medication is expensive and we're fortunate in our family to be able to
afford those things, but he does see how difficult it is for many, many
people in that specific age range to be able to obtain adequate health
care and prescription medications.
Yeah, well, thank you for that.
I mean, it's just so interesting hearing people's stories.
You know, we get told these nice little neatly presented arguments
on certain TV stations and you know, it's just important and I think that's just it.
I love the phrase, they did the best with what they had because
that's it, we can't demonize the past if you know, in the environment,
that was the norm, but it's a very powerful perspective when people look
back and go, ah, now I get it, now I see and coming from a country which
sadly has had their health care system stripped by politics, you know,
rather than bolstered and you know, strengthen the concept of everyone
in the nation contributing to making sure that everyone is taken care of.
I think that's a very insert, you know, religion here philosophy, you know,
I think it's a philosophy that comes from kindness and compassion and if you don't
get to use it, that's a good thing.
That means you didn't get hit by a car or get cancer.
Beautiful, good for you.
But in the meantime, you take care of the people that need it, you know,
and I think it also fosters a more proactive view of health in general
versus if there's money to be made, your best customer is the sick individual
and I think that, you know, that kind of shows itself on the health of our
nation at the moment, which I think COVID really held a mirror to.
I am with you 100% on that.
I know that in other countries, preventative care is the top tier of their
health care system, which unfortunately is not the case in the United States.
And I wanted to just jump back to the question about my dad.
When I was younger, I mean, our health care system has changed significantly
in the past 50 years.
So when I was younger, you had a general practitioner, your entire family
went to the same doctor, right?
There were no specialists.
You didn't have to get a pre-approval, just went to the doctor.
They looked you over and whatever the issue was, was taken care of.
Now, because of insurances and all of that, a doctor can't afford to have
their own practice.
So there's so many groups, you lose the personalization, you lose the
continuity of care.
And as a nurse, I was able to see all of that as it was changing.
So I agree that being able to have a health care system where everyone is
taken care of is important.
I don't think we've reached that yet.
It's hard.
It's hard in a capitalist society to ask people that are raised with the
mindset that if you have something, there's not enough for me, right, to
be responsible for people that they don't know.
That's what I think creates all the arguments around the transition that
we're trying to make happen in healthcare.
But somehow right now, it's like the working middle class are the ones
that suffer the most under our current healthcare system.
There's a lot of issues with it.
Yeah.
Well, it seems as well that we have, like you said, Medicare where we do
take care of the elderly.
We have Medicaid.
We take care of people that most of whom actually need it, some of whom,
of course, there's an abuse of everything.
And those are the examples that are always brought to the front of the room.
But negating the fact that whether it's welfare, whether it's Medicaid,
there are many, many people that it really helps them out of a tough place.
And then they get back on track.
But then you have the VA.
We take care of our veterans.
And again, it may not be perfect from what I've heard as well.
There's a lot of pills being thrown at those men and women rather than
proactive, preventative care.
But we have that philosophy in place.
But what's really, we get a very strong perspective because as you said,
nurse, doctor, first responder, we get to see behind the curtain.
We get to see the true health of our nation and the true efficiency of our
current system.
But also in the first responder community, police, fire, EMS, once you're done,
you're done.
Bye.
Here's all the injuries.
Here's all the mental health.
Good luck.
Your insurance stops tomorrow.
So I think there's no better group of people than the responders and the
medical profession to really understand like, oh, okay, as soon as you're
done with me, that's it.
You kind of flung out the back door.
And it sounds harsh, but it is what it is.
There's no VA for first responders.
So I think if we want to advocate and want to change, imagine if you didn't
have to worry about every profession that you respect, that you knew that
they were going to be taken care of throughout the rest of their life.
But right now, it kills me that the first person you see isn't a doctor or
a nurse.
It's an admin clerk asking for your social security number.
I just think that is the opposite of what Socrates and I mean, so
Hippocrates and some of these ancient minds were predicting, you know,
health care was going to be.
Yeah.
I have so many thoughts around all of that.
I'm fortunate.
The fire department, they take care of us even after retirement.
It may not be perfect, but there's I have health care that I don't actually
have any money for until I die from my just from my husband's short amount
of service in the fire department.
But getting back to that, I don't even think it's about it's about people
that I respect.
I feel like everyone should be entitled to adequate health care.
This isn't something that you should even have to earn, right?
You should just be able to go to a doctor if you're sick and get taken
care of.
There's really different, I want to call it almost like a hierarchy of
care and like you were saying, the VA, it's there.
Is it adequate?
I honestly don't think so.
So I think a lot of these things sound good on paper and the philosophy
behind it is excellent.
I don't think that the practice actually reflects the philosophy.
But we're working.
We're working towards making it better, right?
There's been a lot of awareness brought especially to the VA and I guess
their mental health support mostly because the VA does have some of the
best doctors in our country, but it's the wait times and the ability to
be seen and treated and especially when it comes to mental health issues.
Yeah, no, and I agree completely.
I wasn't saying that you should earn the health care.
I think if it's a hard sell, you can use those groups to push your point.
But my thing is no, absolutely everyone should have it and I'm 47 years
old.
I don't even have a doctor.
So I'm not recipient of this at all.
And I'm advocating for it because I think it's the right thing to do.
It's an ethical thing.
Isn't it funny?
I don't actually have a family doctor either and that goes back to what
I was saying earlier that we used to have a family doctor that knew every,
you know, knew the you didn't go to a pediatrician or or pulmonologist or
you would just go to your family doctor.
Now you have to be seen by a specialist for everything which has its
positives, but it really does lack the personal feel of someone caring
about what's best not just for you, but for your entire family.
Yeah, so my my grandfather was 99 years old and riddled with cancer and
the same family physician we'd had growing up as kids was the same man
that came to the house and you know, visited him till he finally passed
away and that was all under National Health.
They had those you were talking about like the Medicaid thing.
They had the over and above extra insurance.
They paid for their whole life and they basically got priced out when
they actually got to the age.
You were really going to start using it.
They couldn't afford the premiums and they paid, you know, God knows
how much that tens and tens of thousands of pounds and then for
nothing, you know, they basically shut him down.
So all that great care was through the NHS.
So I always tell people like if you hear these stories of people being
written off a 99 year old man riddled with cancer that's if you're going
to write someone off as him and he got as good a care as I've ever seen
in any country on planet Earth through the National Health.
So like you said that original local family physician, you know,
understanding the family dynamic and that inquires, you know, funding
and staffing and all these things too.
But I mean I saw it with my own eyes as a child through the family physician
all the way through to to my grandfather passing when I held his hand,
you know, and then seeing the care of them visiting my grandmother for a
couple of weeks after that which you don't see here at all.
So I know that is so beautiful.
It really changes the the experience of and the energetics around
being ill for everyone.
It elevates, you know, you have there's there's a true compassion.
There's a true connection between the doctor and the patient and the
doctor and the family and then all of that just even if it's an ends
of life issue, it brings peace.
It brings comfort rather than that sterile feeling of being in a hospital
bright lights, you know, tubes all over the place.
So yeah, that's really that's actually a beautiful story or experience.
Yeah, no, it was and he got to got to pass away, you know, in his
family home.
So and there you know, there are so many amazing nurses and doctors
and everything.
So I want to make sure you know, it's it's great in the environment
for them to become the best version of themselves to spend the quality
time with the patient the proactive measures.
So we don't have so many patients in the first place, you know, so
they can put more resources to the people that are truly fighting
things that weren't preventable which I think, you know, would
minimize a huge amount of the issues that we deal with.
So yeah, but it is, you know, I'm not just soapbox in it, you know,
these are personal stories that I saw.
So, you know, you hear some of the demonization of the NHS from our
own people from overseas and you know, I disagree a hundred percent
disagree.
I think it's a beautiful philosophy if this funded properly.
I agree.
I know every time I can't even when I bring that conversation up
with my father, he's like he wants socialized medicine.
He starts to get crazy.
Yeah, well look at the labeling socialized medicine sounds like
Lenin came up with it, you know, so I know you think it's funny
because that goes back to the original question about his ideas
around around our health care system.
Funny.
Yeah.
Well, that was a hell of a tangent, but it's a powerful one.
I think it's great that we got to discuss it.
So with returning to your timeline, you know, we're going to talk
about your most recent adventure, which is going to involve, you
know, a certain amount of exercise.
So when you were in school age, were you an athlete back then?
I was.
I don't think I never considered myself a I never considered myself
an athlete, which is funny because I was always playing something,
but I don't think I accept I have this.
I hate to say it, but I have like this perfectionist personality.
So even though I'm so laid-back, it's sort of this internal
dialogue that I have with myself.
So if I'm not the best or really good at something, I don't even
so I played basketball.
Gosh, like majority of my life.
It was never great.
Not that tall, but I played.
I just went to my high school reunion on Friday and I forgot all
about this, but I was on the inaugural soccer team for my high
school terrible at that, but still played.
Played softball.
You know, I was always doing I was always doing something and I
was always been active.
Brilliant.
Now when you were at that school age, what were you dreaming of
becoming career wise?
I actually thought that I knew that I wanted to serve in some
way shape or form.
So I was it was either a teacher.
I'm also a big nerd with books and reading and so I love I
love school.
I mean, obviously I'm still doing a mentorship now at my age,
but so it was either a teacher or a nurse.
I went through this short period where I was like, oh, maybe
maybe I want to be a stockbroker or something the glamour of
working in New York City and but I love science and I'm pretty
good in I used to be pretty good in math as I get older.
That's that functions whinzling life and I've always I've always
been a caretaker.
I've always been a caretaker.
When we were young, if somebody got hurt my what you know, my
sister we go bike riding.
My sister would fall off her bike or whatever.
I would be cleaning her cuts out bandaging them up.
So yeah, those that was pretty much those were those were my
early childhood dreams.
The other thing which not many people know and I don't really
speak of it often because it's kind of funny.
I want to say I was in the fifth grade.
I thought I wanted to be a nun.
I told you I went to Catholic school for my whole life.
So I thought I wanted to be a nun and I made the big mistake
of telling the nun that was my teacher that I was thinking of
that and I don't even know how long this lasted but I had to
go to the convent every day with her say decades of the Rosary
clean the convent and I mean I loved being there because it
was so peaceful and this this also there are certain seeds
that I think are planted in us before we even get here and
this is part of like that spiritual energy that is so strong
in me now when I was young like I loved being in the convent
and I loved the rituals of you know, they say prayers at
certain times.
They're so devoted but then I found boys and I was like
forget this.
There were boys in the convent.
Well, I didn't find them in the convent.
I found them outside the convent.
I was like who who the hell wants to do that?
So that was the end of it.
Brilliant.
Well, when we'll get into I kind of sense something with
that spiritual path and when the podcast that I heard before
so I definitely want to make sure I visit that just before
we move on a recurring theme with people who have struggled
mental health wise and I'm not saying that you particularly
have as far as you know where you found yourself in that
journey, but it's always a good question to ask.
I think before we move on a lot of the common denominators
some people that did find themselves in the dark place was
an element of childhood trauma and that could be something
very severe.
It could be not feeling love could be one parent always at
work, you know, whatever it was when you look back with that
kind of mental health, you know perspective that you have now
are there any elements of your childhood that you consider
traumatic?
Oh gosh.
Yeah, I mean I don't ever I don't like to speak about this
because I would hate for my parents to feel that the
environment that they created for me was less than stellar
and it goes back to that saying they did the best with what
they had but my mother grew up in a very very very dysfunctional
family riddled with addiction and abuse.
My father is actually my stepfather.
My parents were divorced when I was two don't have a relationship
with my biological father.
And so growing up there was a lot of drinking in my home.
There was a lot of screaming yelling just poor communication.
I want to say lots of generational trauma lots of generational
trauma just handed down and I honestly didn't know that there
was anything wrong with the way that I even the way that
communication took place in my house or I wouldn't I mean it
was violent in its own way not physically violent emotionally
abusive for sure.
So I didn't realize that other families didn't live that way
until I was older and I started going to you know hanging out
at friends houses and saying oh wow.
Yeah, okay.
This isn't the way everybody operates and not like I said
the caretaker part that's part of it times protect your younger
siblings even if it's just from the loud verbal arguments that
are happening in another room that are really frightening for
young children.
So, yes, I will say that there was definitely trauma in my
childhood.
Yeah, well, it's something that I've just been educated to
myself the last few years and I started asking initially it
would come out and then I started focusing a little bit
more just kind of opening that door and all of a sudden like
guest after guest after guest and like I said it could everyone
has their own version of trauma.
It could be something absolutely extreme like I had a boy
soldier on the show from Sierra Leone or it could be just
simply not feeling loved being the middle child, you know,
whatever it was, but I just finished watching a brand-new
documentary Dr. Gabor Mate just made and again, he's huge on
trauma.
I've tried to get him.
I got an initial he was too busy, but I'm going to keep
pursuing him because I think he'd be amazing for this audience.
But yeah, I mean, I don't think people realize how much that
fact is in and when we talk about mental health in the first
bond or community the conversation that very very few
people have is what did you bring in before you put that
badge on your chest, you know, because that really to me then
amplifies whatever you see and do in your career.
I can I can speak on this for hours and important things to
remember with trauma is that like you were saying what's
traumatic to one person trauma is not a specific there's no
specific definition because we can both experience the same
event you might find it traumatic.
I might not so it isn't the event itself.
It's how we actually process the event.
The other thing that's important is that trauma is cumulative.
So like you're saying if you experience trauma as a child
and these don't have to be major trauma is they can be
small traumas.
But they do accumulate and I did a research paper on military
sexual trauma and the numbers are staggering staggering the
and it doesn't just happen to women.
It's also it also happens to men.
And the common denominator in most in the majority of the
cases was a childhood that included a history of sexual
abuse.
So you're 100% right when you're looking and not just not
just that first responder communities, but any human if
there was a childhood history of trauma there's likely to be
a more pronounced response to traumas that you experience as
an adult.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think that's the problem is we focus on an event
and we're going to get to your one of your acute events in
a second.
But yeah, and then the cumulative one is another one,
you know, that's what's so sad with some of these PTSD
presumptive laws at the moment.
These men and women have to prove like prove.
Oh, I was at I was at the World Trade in September, you
know, 9-11 and that's my acute event.
Well, then, you know, you've got everyone else who was
obviously very fortunate not to be there, but they did 10
20 30 years of regular duty in fire police CMS who as you
said are accumulating these traumas all the time and you've
got sleep deprivation.
You got all these compounding elements organizational stress
huge one, you know, working for people that just are magnifying
the stress, but there's no one event to say, oh, it was this
dead baby.
It did it.
We've all had dead babies, you know, we all have but you
know, I think that's the misconception is it's what you
saw which I disagree completely.
That is one tiny piece of a much bigger puzzle.
Yeah, I mean even working as a nurse.
I took for granted.
I didn't have the knowledge.
I knew all about physical trauma, right?
But I didn't have the experience or the knowledge around
emotional trauma and I really and I think that this is so
common in first responder community or health care workers
military the things that you see every day are your norm.
You don't even realize that you're that you are being traumatized,
right?
So I worked in the emergency room.
You see one trauma after another.
There's a certain well, for example, we I can this was like
a horrific experience, but I had a young child come in that
had been horribly abused that ended up dying, right?
And tending to this to this dying baby while the parents
are there that no did this to them, but you can't go, you
know, you're innocent until you proven guilty.
They bring the kid in and the child the mother was pregnant
on top of it, which is like, you know, it's so emotional on
so many levels.
It brings up all of this anger.
You're trying to save this kid and the parents are there
crying, but you did this.
I mean, so it's so horrific.
The child ends up dying, but my shift isn't over.
So I don't get to sit there and that that's it.
That was a huge, you know, that that was a huge event.
You don't get to sit there and cry or or feel bad for your
son.
Even you just can't process it.
You have to compartmentalize it and continue working and
move on to the next trauma.
So how did I didn't have if I was doing that job now the way
I would handle that would be so completely different from
the way that we handled it regularly back then like we
would all go out after work and have a drink, you know,
completely unhealthy, completely lacking coping skills, but
it's your everyday life.
So you don't say to yourself, wow, that was traumatic.
You don't think that it's just like, wow, that was a shitty
day at work, you know, and I think that that's especially
the military when you're deployed and your friend gets
blown up and you know, you find out that they that they that
they died and you don't even have time to grieve.
You kind of have to just shut it off and continue on.
What's crazy as well is that you lock these memories away
and I'll give you a perfect example.
Just you telling that story and there's many I had this
horrific like week week and a half where I hadn't really
had much pediatric trauma at all and then I had, you know,
two abuse babies that both died.
But then there was another one a few years later that I
totally forgotten about and I remember I can't even see
the child's face now, but I think it was like toddler
age or not mistaken and there was something like the mother
said it slipped in the shower and that's why it was, you
know, unconscious and everything and that poor little
thing passed away as well.
But again, there was a huge huge, you know, chance of that
was abuse as well.
So, you know, that was and then we cleaned the gear and
went back into service, you know, all of these had a
shaken baby kid that stayed in a convalescent home for a
few years and died in my arms.
You know, I think it was four when he died and you clean
your gear and you go back to you know, to service.
So all these things just dig into you and you know, you
don't process them and you know, excuse me, there's a
Mexican saying it says they tried to bury us.
They didn't know we were seeds and I love that like it's
going to come out eventually.
I just read that recently.
I don't know where I read it, but I just read that that is
so beautiful.
You just made me think of something that with trauma that
I use constantly because being a yoga teacher and all
that but it stays in your body like you can you might you
might not ever be able to recall specific events that
have that have happened to you, but they are stored in
it all the nooks and crannies of your of your body.
So I think this this leads into a whole other conversation
about how you deal with trauma right because a lot of
people myself included when we experience something that
is obviously traumatic and I mean this is usually something
that brings you to your knees like life altering where
you decide to go get help and the first help that we all
usually reach for healthy.
I mean, you know besides all the other things that we
try to do to numb the pain is we look for a therapist
right?
That's the most common you need to go to therapy.
In my opinion and this has changed over the course of
of the past 20 years and having so much exposure and
experience with trauma not just my own but others is that
talking only goes so far when you're treating trauma and
after that point you are simply retraumatizing the
per asking them to repeat certain stories over and over
again, right?
You're just embedding it deeper and deeper.
You have to move your body.
You have to move your body to get trauma out of it.
What you know to really bring it to the surface and
and move past it.
Yeah, and it just aligns with with so many success stories
that I've heard whether it's Save a Warrior, you know,
and they're they're doing a lot of the childhood trauma
stuff, but they're also out doing obstacle courses and
you know all kinds of stuff whether it's equine therapy
whether it's the the rocks.
I mean, you know, there's some diving groups.
I mean you name it but again, like you said is combining
therapy with movement and even I talked about this a
lot Tom Hewitt is a guy who founded Surfers Not Street
Children in South Africa and what's beautiful is they
take these kids and it's crazy.
A lot of these kids live by the ocean, but they can't
swim they kind of were taught that there were monsters
in the ocean.
So they get them swimming they get them surfing after
their session.
Then they sit on the beach.
They're tired.
They've got those endorphins going, you know, the sun's
on their skin and then they start doing the talk therapy.
So again, if you're doing one without the other it
makes perfect sense that you're not going to get the
whole holistic, you know healing experience and you
know, on top of that the healthier the body gets the
more there's a feeling of well-being and to me that
more that magnifies, you know healing even more than
there's there's a people people when they hear especially
I'm so tired of hearing PTSD, but when you hear that
phrase PTSD a lot of people have the idea that it is
just in your mind and the truth of it is that it's a
biological a neural it's a neurophysiological reaction,
right?
So the act of paddling I've a I have a dear friends of
mine her name.
I'll give her a shout out her name is Bonnie Owens and
she created and trademarked something called kayak
therapy and what she does she she is a trauma specialist
and she works a lot with first responders in the
military and she takes them out kayaking.
It serves so many purposes right like you said, it's
the movement of the body but more than that is the
simple right left movement the alternating of the
paddling that you're doing in kayaking.
It's the same thing that happens when you do a meditative
walk or a rock or a yoga any of it that right left
movement increases the the the like the conversation
between the right and the left side of your brain same
with EMDR exactly exactly.
So it's a way of people that are not comfortable with
therapy that aren't into the whole EMDR thing you take
them for a paddle and you get them talking.
It's it's so much less pressure.
It's so much less threatening.
It's way more intimate.
So I think that the combination of being able to
move your body and then talk about things not in the
sense of having just repeat your story.
Tell me how you feel about this.
Tell me how you feel.
It's just an organic conversation.
Whatever comes up and things get unlocked really easily
when there are no preconceived ideas around it, right?
Absolutely amazing.
Well getting back to your chronological walkthrough
then back to me.
So, you know, you came out of school.
You became a nurse yourself.
Tell me about meeting Jeff and then tell me who Jeff
was.
Okay, so I met Jeff.
I started working at Saint Vincent's and Jeff was not
yet a fireman.
He was working there in building services, which literally
means that he was mopping the floors and he used to come
up to my unit and I he had this long ponytail.
He always wore a baseball cap backwards and he had this
huge key chain and he just had a very distinctive walk.
So I would hear him like we would call.
Oh, we need this room cleans or whatever and I would
hear him get off the elevator because I could hear his
keys rattling and I would listen to him sometimes in
the room with the patients and they would be, you know,
you know, people are sick and I don't know just for
example, say somebody throw up on the floor and he had
to clean it up often.
He would go in and people would be so I'm so sorry.
I'm so you know, and I would listen to him interact
with these people and he was so kind and if they weren't
in a state where they were apologizing or he would just
always start a conversation always had a joke always
did something to make these people smile.
So it wasn't like he just went in and did his job and
left.
So at some point I started we started talking to each
other and then.
There were layoffs in the hospital and I hadn't seen
him around in a while.
So I asked one of his co-workers.
Oh, what happened?
You know what happened to Jeff?
I thought maybe he got laid off and they said, oh no,
he's on vacation.
He's moving into a new house or something like that.
So a lot of us were going out after work and one of the
people that I work with invited him so him and I spent
the entire, you know, whatever time that we were out
talking to each other and then he asked me out on a date
and I went home and said to my mother.
There's this really great guy at work.
Like he's so cool.
He's Jeff was very unique and that's the only way that
I could describe him.
But I said, I just can't get past this long hair.
Like I always dated guys that were kind of I don't want
to say preppy.
They are usually athletes, but they all went to Catholic
school.
So they had short hair and they were and this guy was a
complete hippie.
So I said to my mother, I don't know.
I don't know if I could get past the hair and my mother
was like handsome there like he could always cut his hair.
He's nice.
What do you care?
Go out with them.
Which is not what I expected from her.
So we went out and I've written about this.
You probably read it or heard it somewhere.
Our first date.
He asked me what do I want out of life?
Like what do I want out of life?
I was out to have a good time.
I was not thinking we were getting into this.
I was not thinking we were getting into this conversation.
So I was like, I don't know.
What do I want?
Like I have to answer that right now.
I think I need time to think about that.
And so I sort of just said, I guess I want to be happy.
I don't know.
I really never, you know, spend time thinking what's my
what do I really want out of life?
So I said, well, what do you want out of life?
And he was so clear, 27 years old and just was so clear.
He said, I want to make a difference.
And that is Jeff in a nutshell.
Like one minute he would be acting like Jim Carrey.
Hilariously funny.
And then the next minute you would be having these
conversations that were so deep and made you really look at yourself.
Yeah, he was just this.
I want to say larger than life because really that's that's
what he was.
He wasn't a big guy, but he had this really strong personality.
And when I say strong, I don't mean loud.
They don't mean he would be in a room and half the time
you know, you wouldn't even know that he was there.
You know, if we were out somewhere, he would just be and I would
be the crazy one, right?
I would be dancing on the bar and I've looked out and he'd be
leaning up against the wall smiling at me.
Like here she goes again, right?
But yeah, so that was how that was our first date.
Beautiful.
Well, when he was doing the janitorial work, which I think
actually is a great prep for any probationary firefighter if you
mop and floors and picking up shit just for everyone out there
because that's what you're going to be doing.
So true.
But was he already testing with FD or was that something that
came to him after?
Well, this is really crazy.
He had taken the test like we thought his test had been thrown
out because he had taken it.
I want to say he was 19 years old or eight.
I don't he was it was the test had been taken years and years
before that.
He didn't ever expect to be called to the fire department.
So when we got the letter, he was like what he was so shocked
and honestly, he almost didn't take it because him switching
from the job that he was doing.
He was actually the manager of building services.
So him moving from that to the fire department as you know,
going into the Academy.
He was taking a pay cut and we had already gotten married at
this point and I was pregnant with my daughter.
And he was like, I don't know.
Like I don't know if we can afford to take the pay cut and
you know, there are certain things that you just have to you
just have to suck it up.
I was like, we'll make it work.
This is what you want to do.
This is your dream.
It's better even for our future.
It's more secure.
The hospital was always laying people off and you know, who
wants to do the job that he was doing for the rest of it rest
of their lives.
He didn't.
So, yeah, he said yes, they did the investigation and and there
he was.
Now, did he cut his hair because he got in the Academy or
were you able to get him to cut his hair before he cut his
hair because oh God, he cut his hair.
Actually, he first cut his hair when my daughter did he cut
his hair when Tory was born.
I think he cut his hair first when Tory was born.
No, I think that's a lie.
I don't remember.
I know that he got his hair cut though, like the short short
haircut for the Academy and what was funny about it was that
when he went to go get his hair cut.
I was a nervous wreck.
The one who was like, oh, I can't get past the hair when I
knew he was going to get his head shaved.
I was waiting at home.
Like what if he comes back and I don't think he's a track.
I was so nervous and he came back and I was like Jesus, you
should have cut your hair years ago.
Jeff had really defined features and that long hair.
That's crazy long hair just hit everything.
So yeah, I still actually have the ponytail.
Oh, you do.
Brilliant.
Yeah, because he was very into Native American traditions.
So we were supposed to bury it after he cut it and we didn't
really we he helped we held on to it for a little bit and then
September 11th happens and then I didn't want to bury it.
I wanted to keep it.
So I still have it.
That's beautiful.
Well with that transition, I just had one of the guys from
The Rock on the show Felix Manjaro's and he was one of the
fitness trainers on the Academy.
I saw that.
Yeah, so I'm having problems.
I mean, hopefully by the time we will hear this it will be
resolved and done but I'm for some reason the Blemming thing
will not upload.
So it's still in cyberspace at the moment.
But anyway to go from, you know a desk job to being in a
well-respected Academy.
What was that like for Jeff?
How did he deal with that transition?
Oh God, I that it was almost seamless for him because he
really was was meant to be in the in the fire department.
It was almost you know, when when you up level to when you
start to do with what your soul's purpose is things just
flow.
So that was that was how it was.
He didn't like the studying part of it.
And Jeff was not ever he was a big he was a big outdoorsman.
So he was always kayaking and camping and hiking and that
kind of stuff fishing.
He was a huge fisherman, but he wasn't into sports.
So I think the running for time and all of that stuff in the
beginning was you know, I want to say it was a lot of it was
a lot of work.
But yeah, he just got himself into a rhythm and the Academy
flew by it really did beautiful.
Where did he find himself assigned?
Ten and ten.
Right down on Liberty Street Liberty and Greenwich that was
so when Jeff graduated from the Academy they were still doing
what was called the rotation.
So you would come out of your believe it was 13 weeks in the
Academy and then you were assigned a permanent house you
would start there and then you would spend it was supposed to
be I think originally it was supposed to be a year in each
house, but that wasn't how it worked out.
So he spent some time at 10 and 10 and then the New York City
firehouses are labeled a B and C depending upon fire duty and
EMS runs their level of activity and you were supposed to
rotate through each one of each of those houses.
This way you get to see all different scenarios right and
different personalities and different ways of different
leadership. Styles and all that so he went from 10 and 10 to
a house in Brooklyn 246 169.
He spent a year there and then from there he went to Ladder
175 in East New York and then back to 10.
Now with 10 and 10, I mean obviously most people will
recognize that as the closest firehouse to the World Trade.
I've been there made sure I didn't go over and say hi and
everything because I'm sure those poor men and women get
bombarded by every single firefighter from Planet Earth
coming to say hello, but we went to the memorial and the
museum and all these things and so it's very very hallow
ground I think in the fire service but prior to 9-11 what
kind of runs was he going on?
Because it's a very nice, you know, Manhattan station.
So I'm assuming there weren't a lot of structure fires.
It's not, you know, old brown stones or anything.
I'm assuming there wasn't a lot of violent crime in that
particular area.
So what kind of what did the day look like for him those kind
of calls?
Oh God, if the guys from 10 listen to this, they're probably
going to kill me.
They'll kill me first.
Well, now you're spot-on.
They know it.
I mean they were first to with the World Trade Center.
So I would say that their regular days consisted.
There's a lot of like stuck elevators, smoke conditions
because there's lots of restaurants around.
They were always doing BI.
That's a huge building inspection.
That's a huge thing.
It's huge thing everywhere. You should know the buildings
that you're working in, but especially especially in
Manhattan because there's always construction.
There's always something going on.
So they do spend a lot of their day doing building inspection.
But other than that, you're right.
There weren't a lot of actual fires.
Sometimes there would be a call down to the river who don't,
you know, water rescues things like that.
And to be quite honest, I hate to think that I'm like upsetting
people when I say things, but when Jeff was in 175, which
was the house right before he went back to 10 and 10, so really
busy company.
It is a lot of senior guys.
It's a house that everyone, you know, wants to go to.
And he saw so much fire duty there.
Like it was whenever he would come home, he would smell like
smoke and you would think that that would make me more nervous,
but it actually reassured me because I felt like everyone
that he worked with was so experienced on the fire floor
that he was in good hands.
When he went back to 10, I had he had a they actually did have
a smoke condition in a restaurant and I was like, oh, how
you know how to go and he was like, yeah, you know, it was it
was easy.
Nothing.
There was it was nothing major.
But in my mind, I was thinking to myself, you know, if you
don't see a lot of fire then and I'm not saying that they're
not capable.
They're all capable, but it was just like, oh my gosh, you know,
I hope nothing big happens because it's sort of like you're
rusty a little rusty even though they drill constantly and they
keep their skills intact.
It's different from being in a company that is constantly going
to fires.
So I started to get nervous and I think that there's something
to be said again.
I always take things to the soul level.
Like I feel like my soul knew that something was going to
happen and this wasn't just him going from a busy house to a
less busy house.
When he graduated from the Academy, he got interviewed by
our local newspaper and I was filing it away and I just and
there was a picture his his official fire department picture
that I was also putting away and I just and I'm not a crier.
So this is like I was I couldn't stop crying.
My sister called me and was like, what's the matter with you?
And I said, I don't know.
I feel like I'm filing this stuff to take it take it out at
a really bad time.
And that's exactly what ended up happening.
So and I and I'm not a worrywart, you know, not normally.
I'm not I don't try to think of the worst-case scenario.
It just isn't my personality, but there was some kind of of
knowing even after the Father's Day fires, right?
Both of us were so shook and there had been other, you know,
losses, but that one for some reason I like I just knew I
couldn't imagine what it was like being in the being the
wives of those of the men or you know, their family members
and I don't know.
I just had a feeling that one day that was going to be me.
That's such a powerful perspective to hear for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, you're right.
There are many of us that are out protecting areas that don't
get a lot of fire and I being you said user with gypsy.
I mean, basically I've ended up being a fire gypsy.
You know, I ended up starting in the Miami area.
I trained in Orlando worked in Miami area highly initially
then California for a few years and then the the Orange County
outside Orlando for a few years and then finally protecting Disney
the last one and Anaheim for example burned all the time.
It was a black cloud my probationary year.
I think it was like 12 solid structure fires, which you know
for what was that 2005 time that was pretty good.
A lot of you know, the buildings were safer by that point,
but then the last one I work for the protects Disney, of course
they do very well with their fire protection.
So, you know, I mean next to no fires, I mean, there's a tracks trailer fire.
I think I'm trying to remember a couple others mutual aid, but really
nothing and the amount of time I was there.
So then the onus is on training though.
Like you said, you can't make fires happen.
In fact, really in your soul, you know, you shouldn't want to make
fires happen anyway, ethically, but we're all praying for them.
Let's be honest, but you know, the so the other side of that is the training
and you're right completely.
There's no question that when I was in Anaheim had something kicked off
or even Orange County, the one that was after I would have been so much
more prepared than the very end of my career in the last place and
partly because the training wasn't there.
But you know, also the frequency even if you're training well, you're
still simulating is not real world.
So you're absolutely right to worry to be completely honest that people
are out there.
Yes, the potential is bigger, but you know, the potential of not
performing that one time I think is much bigger in a choir house.
Now, so many of us around the world, you know, honor the men and women
that were lost as a beautiful competition, sadly has stopped at the
moment because of a combination of new leadership, which is terrible
in their department and COVID, but it was honoring the 343 and obviously
stair climbs are a huge part of that.
When you know, prior to that event, how often did the crews climb?
Because one of the most I think powerful things I've heard one of the
leaders in the fire service and he was from Denver say Dave McGrill.
I asked him and I was a loaded question, you know, how many stairs,
how many flights of stairs you think a firefighter should be able to
carry, you know, all the gear and he said well to the top of your
tallest building in your first year.
So with that obviously the World Trade was a huge structure.
I ended up climbing one World Trade with a Marine Rob Jones, who's a
double amputee.
So I climbed he bear crawled 110 floors, which is insane.
Wow.
But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is how much training and
what was the emphasis on stair climbs for the crews that Jeff worked with?
I'm throwing everybody onto the bus here.
Arizona asked me these questions.
I think that it's actually left after you get out of the Academy.
There are physical, you know, you go for your physicals, your medicals
every year with your company and all of that.
But there isn't actually another physical fitness test.
If you could believe that, but that's the truth.
So the ability to climb stairs, it's left up to the individual pretty
much.
I don't I've never been in a firehouse that doesn't have its own
gym.
Ten house has a beautiful gym.
The guys are always working out and but it really was up to the
individual to stay to stay fit.
Yeah, but I mean, that's I think that's the element of that.
That's good.
I think we should have annual standards and that's something I'm huge
about.
But you know, it is on us.
So but were they were they out climbing stairs?
And the reason I asked is not to kind of throw them under the bus, but
a lot of crews got, you know, an astounding way up that building with
these fire conditions with these evacuations going on.
So I'm doing it out of, you know, respect for a lot of these crews.
And I'm assuming that there were many crews that were holding their
own bar high to be able to actually affect the rescues.
They did that day.
I mean, I think that when you work in Manhattan, every every single
building basically is a high-rise, right?
So you're always going upstairs.
I know they would take the elevator when they could because why wouldn't
you and in regards to September 11th, the person that I heard of
getting the highest and again, we don't know, right?
It's all pretty much hearsay and the little bit of radio comms that
we had that it's based upon, but was an individual called Oreo Palmer.
And he was known for his fitness.
No one was surprised that he got as far as as far as he did.
Yeah, and I was at the 89th.
Have I got that right around there?
Did he got to?
I don't even I don't remember actually how high but I thought that
it was in the 80s.
Yeah, I'm assuming that probably was where the impact was so they
probably couldn't get any further.
But yeah, I mean, so like I said, this conversation obviously
is a powerful perspective over ownership over preparation over
training if you are in a quiet house, but you know, like I said,
a nod to the incredible physical achievements that I heard of and
I witnessed in, you know, the documentary 9-11 and things like this
that you know when caught upon, you know, a lot of those men and
women got to an incredible level and facilitated so many rescues
before you know the collapse.
Yeah, I actually you know, it's interesting even 20 years later.
I'll sit down with somebody and we'll be, you know, telling stories
and something will come up and I'll find out something that I never
knew in all this time, you know, I'm like, wow that that I've never
heard that story before but I know that our guys I'm pretty sure
they got on an elevator even though they were way off.
I think that they from from what I've heard they didn't they didn't
start down from the lobby.
They hopped on one of the elevators and then made their way up.
It didn't go.
I don't remember what floor they got off of but I think they were
up in the 50s.
Right.
Well, let's talk about that then.
So, you know, obviously 9-11 was a beautiful morning as we've heard.
So what was that day like through your eyes?
Through my eyes.
So the day before Jeff left for work the day before New York City
Fire Department for those who don't know the firemen work 24 hour
shifts most of the time.
So they go in for 24 hours and then they're off her day or two and
they have a 24 partner.
So that person works opposite their schedule.
Jeff was not supposed to be working the morning of the 11th.
He was supposed to be coming home.
But the night before he had gotten a call someone had jury duty and
so they needed, you know, they needed one of the guys to stay over.
So Jeff was he offered to stay and I spoke to him the night before in
the morning I had my my oldest had to get off to school and I had
had a miscarriage that summer like and had complications.
So I wasn't really feeling great.
But the the two little ones after I sent the older guy off the two
little ones slept in and I never would go back to sleep normally,
but I wasn't feeling great.
So I was like, let me lay down while they're still laying down and
we didn't we had cell phones at the time, but they weren't the first
line of communication.
So my home phone was ringing off the hook and every morning I would
talk to my sister my sister-in-law.
So I figured it was them and then I heard my father on my voice now
and I picked up because he never would call me.
So it's like something must be wrong.
So yeah, I answered the phone and he said where's Jeff and I said
he's at work and my father was working at Jersey City Medical Center
at the time and his office big gigantic windows faced the World
Trade Center and he saw the first plane hit and knew that you know,
that was Jeff's area.
So he said well a plane just hit the Twin Towers said there's a
huge fire and I was not concerned.
I honestly was excited for him.
I was because you know, he lives for fire.
So I was like good.
He's finally going to you know, he's going to get a good job.
And then while I was on the phone, my father said holy shit.
There's another plane coming and when that happened we knew that
it was not just an accident.
So I put my TV on and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what to do.
I mean, I think everyone sort of was in that state of what is happening, right?
It was just I didn't expect the towers to fall and I didn't even at that point.
I was scared because I just the fear of the unknown, but I didn't think
that Jeff would be hurt.
I just was like what the hell is going on and then as we heard about
the other planes, it was we knew that we were under attack and I my first
thought was for my children safety.
I had Vincent at school and I mean, this is you know, the dark humor.
It's not funny, but it is now I didn't know like should I go pick him up?
I wanted I was waiting to hear from Jeff.
I did and then I'm like, well schools are a bomb shelter.
So maybe there he's better off staying there and I said my sister also
her boys were at school.
So I said, what do you think we should do?
So we left them there and then a relative of ours who's a police officer
said we should probably go pick the kids up from school because they
didn't know, you know, if we were going to pack up and what was going
to happen so we go to get the kids from school, but my son's to this day
tells everybody that he's the last person in school that I just left in there.
I was like, well, I thought I was keeping you safe.
But yeah, so so that was like my first thought trying to get the kids
situated, but when the first tower collapsed.
My heart, I didn't it was like even when that happened your brain does
this your brain goes into this protection mode instantly when I speak
now of you know, my memories and I don't can't remember there is there's
so much and this is common with trauma to there's so much that I don't
remember I have little snapshots and there's kind of like, you know, a
story attached to those visuals, but there's a lot that I can't recall
when that tower fell my first thought was oh God, you know, he might
be hurt.
He might be hurt.
That was I didn't even think that he would have been killed like I
couldn't it didn't it did could it couldn't register it wasn't you know,
like it just so I started saying oh God, I hope he's okay.
Like I hope he isn't hurt.
And that was like my first prayer was let him just be okay, you know,
don't let him be hurt.
And then I thought to myself, I remember Jeff saying to me it was like
all of these conversations we had came rushing back to me.
So I remembered him saying to me if anything ever happens to me, they
send someone to the house to pick you up and they'll bring you to me.
So I was like I better get in the shower.
I know this sounds like so crazy, but it's like the way that your
mind just goes into this insane delusional thinking I was like let me
get into the shower in case they come to get me if he does get hurt.
They might have to bring me to the hospital while I was in the shower.
Had the our house is very small.
We lived in a little Cape on Staten Island.
I had the bathroom door open and the TV was on so that I could hear
what was happening and as I was in the shower the second tower fell and
as the tower fell this is the gods-honest truth.
I was wearing a locket that Jeff had given me and it literally got it
like it felt like someone grabbed it and ripped it off of my neck.
Like it just got it got yanked and it fell to the bottom of the shower.
Right.
And I got this feeling of like somebody like somebody falling.
So then that was when I started to get scared.
Like I didn't know what I was supposed to do where I was and so my
phone then started ringing off the hook.
Everybody wanted to know where he was and I like I picked the necklace up.
It wasn't broken.
Like people are like, oh it must have brought it wasn't broken.
It just it was the most insane thing.
So my sister came over and my mother came over and we just there was
nothing I could do after that.
Right.
I just waited.
I kept calling the firehouse.
There was no there was no answer or it was a busy signal.
We had no idea what was going on.
It was like everybody you were scared.
I was scared for him, but I was also scared for all of us.
Like I didn't I had children to protect.
I was by myself.
So I started our house went in a circle and I literally was just like pacing.
I just went around.
I just kept pacing and looking on the news like it's an hour is watching
the news looking for the little names on the back of the bunker gear to
see if I could see him.
And then I don't like that.
That's pretty much all I remember from from the first from the first
that first day.
I remember just thinking to myself.
Okay, I don't care how he comes home first.
It was like I wanted him home in one piece.
Then it was like, I don't care how he comes home.
I just want him home.
I don't care if you know, everyone is broken.
If I just want him home and I didn't hear from anyone that you know, we
didn't hear from anyone for date.
It was you know, it was just this waiting and if you were why I mean, I'm
sure you remember watching the news and the scariest thing.
I mean, especially for me being a nurse that spent a lot of time in
the emergency room.
I saw all the triage and everything set up all the city the big city
hospitals ready for all of these people to be brought in and no one
was being brought in.
I was like where it was like as if all these people just disappeared.
It was yeah, that was my September 11th.
Well, that last comment that you made reminds me of the Surfside incident.
We just had in Miami and a lot of my friends were down there, you know
with the USAR teams and it was the same thing.
They had a few people pulled out at the beginning and then nothing.
I mean, they were trying to do body recovery and you know, we won't get
into the details, but they weren't finding much of anything.
So well, this is going to be an unusual perspective for you because I
mean, you know, you were worried about actually losing someone but one
of the beautiful things that came out of this horrendous day was what
the world saw the day after the community the coming together and it's
something that I think that people even romanticized about this last
year.
I miss 912 is definitely a phrase said a lot now.
It's a skewed perspective because you were obviously, you know fearing
that you lost Jeff but were there any elements of that now retroactively
when now you're you know much further away from that day that you
remember of the kindness and compassion post 9-11.
I
I my own 912 story.
I mean, I stayed up that whole night, you know, then of the 11th.
I was up all night and in the morning I was sitting outside.
It was pitch black.
The kids were sleeping and I'm reading a book and this is like the one
of the first parts of it is that the Sun started to rise and I couldn't
believe it.
I was like it because you feel like times was standing still right and
the night was so long.
It was just it was it felt like it would never ends and then all of
a sudden that some came up and I was like, wow, the world just keeps
on keeping on no matter what happens right, but it also gave me relief
like it didn't feel so scary.
I felt like if he was trapped in there, maybe it wasn't so scary with
the sunlight and it was.
I guess it was like my first sign of hope and then as far as people
go God I talk about this often because
I when you're in a situation like that it is as if you're so broken
open every single one of your you you're experiencing every single
emotion on full blast right there's so much pain.
There's so much fear.
There is so much sadness and then people are so kind and they're so
good to you.
I my house was filled with firemen filled.
They made sure I had breakfast lunch dinner.
They paid my bills.
They did my food shopping.
They made sure that my kids were taking care of I mean I all I had
to do was exist right and that was pretty much all I was capable
of at the time but on top of that of course my friends my family
neighbors everyone everyone sent food over put up as because the
other part of 9-eleven is that that feeling of that not knowing
and it lasted for months because they were you know, they were
looking for people for months.
So it wasn't like a regular fire where you know, you lose someone
and you can start, you know sort of you know, the closure comes
quickly you have a body and you have a funeral and all that we
were just sitting around waiting and waiting.
So yes, I the people that were that were in my immediate, you
know, my home in my home with my immediate family all of that,
but then also seeing on TV, you know, everybody donating material
and that heavy machinery to start, you know, just the guys out
there doing the bucket Brigade in the beginning was it was really
people taking care of the firemen.
I mean friends of mine front people guys that Jeff works that
they would see pictures of them on the news covered in dusk getting
water poured in their eyes and yeah, so it was like that was the
worst of time.
What is that saying?
It's the worst of times and it was the best of times in the
worst of times.
Well, it's again, it's so important to hear because that's
who I believe people are, you know, and I think that we're
given this skewed perspective.
But again, because I get to hear all these incredible stories,
I get these layers now, you know, I've had 9-eleven for
example, everywhere from the French brothers that were inside,
you know, with Chief Pfeiffer and Father Judge and then, you
know, one of the men assigned the Coast Guard that was doing
the evacuations off Manhattan.
I mean just so many powerful stories, but one thing I don't
think people realize is the surviving members of FDNY that
were, you know, not hurt and able to carry on were cycling
through between, you know, funerals covering overtime shifts
because, you know, the life goes on people are still getting
sick and hurt and things are burning, you know, outside of
Manhattan, but then also being present that house full of
firefighters that were helping you were also going to the
pile, going to funerals, running their shifts.
So the surviving members of that department and what they
did, you know, obviously FDPD, everyone else that was kind of
involved in that dispatch, you know, it's I think that's
another lesser-known fact that the workload emotionally and
physically that was put on the shoulders of survivors is
something that you don't really hear much about and I think
it needs to be acknowledged.
Oh my God.
I just, on my personal Instagram page, I just did a post
about this because we had a, we had a retirement party for
two of the members of 10 House and one of my liaisons I
see often he actually joined the army after 9-11.
He became a nurse and then he went into the army and he
has since deployed and so I see, I see his name is John
Moore.
I see him often.
But the other liaison who was Jeff's senior man, he has
since retired and I, he doesn't really come out that often.
He has his own issues and I love him to death, but I got
to see him and that was my first thought being now, you
know, time having passed and everything just being so
grateful for, I don't know how they did it.
I don't know how they did it.
I mean, sometimes there were, there were three and four
funerals a day and they, they were, we lost so many guys
in, you know, in the towers that there wasn't room for
not going to work and they just made time.
I don't know how they made time for all of us.
I don't, I don't know how, I don't know how they did it
and not only, I mean, they were displaced, the guys from
the penthouse were, their firehouse was blown out.
So they were having to operate out of two other firehouses
and it was just, and then the jobs that they had to do
when they gathering, you know, it was just, it was
gathering body parts, like literally that was, that was
their detail for a while.
I mean, I don't know how any of them did it.
No, and I think again, it needs to be acknowledged.
Even one of my close friends was at Surfside and some
of them were doing the same thing, you know, finding
fingers and toes and God knows what else was left.
But another one of my friends who has again, you talk
about trauma, his life story is full of trauma and even
his wife right now is battling cancer and you know, those
two are amazing human beings, but he was assigned death
notifications when they did finally, you know, identify
someone that deceased.
So you think about the emotional toll of that and I'm
sure a lot of the members of FD had to do that as well.
So you'll just, you know, combining all these traumas
now, then you factor in the exposures, you know, the
911 cancer, carcinogens that everyone was breathing in
and around and yeah, I mean, that's a group of people
that we should be bending over backwards to take care
of the rest of their lives.
And sadly it appears that that's not always the case.
Well, they did get that bill passed which was really
good news, but the number of firemen that we have lost
to 911 related cancer or not even just the number that
I've lost, but the number of firemen diagnosed with some
form of 911 related cancer is the numbers are, I don't
know them off hands, but they're staggering.
Jeff's captain at the time, Gene Kelty, he had pancreatic
cancer.
Thankfully, he is on the men's, but I have like good
friends of mine, my best friend from high school.
She married her high school sweetheart.
So we've all been friends from high school, but he had kidney
cancer.
Other friends of mine, I mean, what's disturbing about
it was the untruths that were told around the time, right?
They were told that the air quality was fine when in
fact it was not.
So it was just exposure to jet fuel, pulverized concrete,
you know, all of that.
Yeah.
Well, I think that's just it.
We need to acknowledge all of the ripple effects and we're
going to get into obviously the numbers in a little bit,
but before we move forward with that, you're there at 912,
the sun's coming up, you know, your children are probably
wondering where their dad is.
Walk me through those next few days and then when did you
finally learn that Jeff was one of the people that didn't
make it? I don't I can't even put a timeline to certain
things.
Like I don't know the next few days basically consisted of
me dialing the phone over and over and over again trying to
get through to the firehouse and not being able to and then
reaching out to other women in the firehouse to see if they
had heard from their husbands.
I called Jeff's 24 partners wife thinking that he would have
not been there because Jeff was working but he had in fact
gone in and had been detailed to another firehouse.
So she hadn't heard from him.
So that was one of the guys that we lost in 10 wasn't even
operating with 10 that day.
I don't remember what company he was he was with but so yeah,
it was the days after that were just waiting waiting and hoping
and praying and I would have guys come and say there were
voids and there was a good possibility that they were
trapped in these void.
There would be enough air for them to survive and I always I
tell the story often because it's one of those snapshots
that I told you about one of Jeff senior guys came in and I
was like I said hey Eddie, you know how things going over
there you think you find anybody in the void and he just
looked at me and tears in his eyes and he just shook his
head and I got so angry at him like what's the matter with
you? You know, I didn't say this to him.
I was just like everybody else has all of this hope and you're
so negative.
You know, like that was my my idea of just aren't you looking
don't you want to find them, you know, and my birthday is
September 25th.
So I wanted to go up like around that time.
They had been asking me if I wanted to go to the site and I
kept saying no, no, no, and then I finally decided to go right
around my birthday and when I got there.
What I had seen on TV did not I don't want to say didn't do
it justice because that sounds like but it was so that that
pile that didn't it.
I mean it looks big on TV, but when you are actually standing
in front of it, I mean it was gigantic gigantic.
It was stories high and blocks wide and I looked at it and I
was like, how are they ever supposed to find anybody in that
it's like finding a needle in a haystack.
How could they ever find anyone in there?
So I went home and I said to Jeff Jeff and I used to have
these like crazy conversations when he was alive, but I was
sitting outside and I said to him I need for you to give me
a sign like I need for you to let me know that you're okay.
If you're like when I was there I was like there's no way
he's alive.
You know, there was no doubt in my mind.
So Jeff and I used to go up to Pennsylvania a lot and we
would have the kids in the car and we would on the way up
there count red tail talks because there really weren't
any of those on Staten Island at all, but we would see them
on the way up there.
So I was like if you you know, like if you're not here anymore,
I want you to send me a hook.
This is like my internal conversation.
Not I don't remember how long after that it wasn't long like
within the week.
I had to go to fill out some paperwork and bring some DNA
from my kids mouths so that if they were if he was recovered
they could identify him.
Right down all it was just a terrible day.
So I came back and I go into my backyard all of these firemen
are standing around and they're all like looking up at the
sky and I'm like, what are you guys doing?
They were like these birds been flying over your house for
hours and I look up and it's the red tail talk.
So that was like confirmation for me even though it sounds
crazy.
I was like, okay, he's he's okay, you know, there was like
a difference between my heart like what I knew in my soul
and what my head would say.
There was like this incongruence that I can't fully explain
but 40 days exactly 40 days after 9-11 Jeff was recovered.
He was recovered and you know, the 40 days is significant
if you're Catholic because that was the time that Jesus spent
in the desert right 40 days.
So that was when I got the official notification which was
I want to say about three weeks after I had the feeling that
he wasn't there but after I went to the site I knew that I
had to give my children some closure and I decided at that
point that I was going to have a memorial for him whether
they recovered him or not because I didn't really believe
that they would be able to recover him.
So we had an entire funeral.
We had a casket that we just filled up with everything that
he loved his fishing poles and you know, the kids put drawings
in there his backpack that he carried around with him everywhere
his class A's we put it all in there and after we did that
then they recovered him.
See, I mean there's so many areas that are just heart-wrenching
like imagining swabbing your child's mouth to send it to see
if your husband can be identified.
I mean these are the depths of these stories a single firefighter
one firefighter of the thousands of people that perished just
that day alone.
You know, it's so easy to minimize each of these stories
through statistics.
Oh, we lost X amount.
I mean even this year it's been all about statistics, you know,
but one single life, you know, I mean this is the depth that
we need to hear it, you know, as as civilians that survive
this as people that are voting to send our men and women off
to war or not send them, you know, I mean these are the things
that we need to hear.
Now you talked about Catholicism.
I've had people on here who are deeply specifically religious
and then on that faith.
I myself am more spiritual generally and take, you know,
lean more into the principles of love kindness and compassion
than any specific doctrine.
What emotionally or spiritually did you lean into, you know,
whilst grieving, you know, post 9-11?
I had been exploring listen, I am after this whole entire
experience in the 20 years since.
I really have developed I was always I mean, like I said grow
up Catholic there was there was there was always an underlying
devotion for me.
I've I've always felt very connected to something bigger
than myself.
I didn't actually subscribe even when I was younger to the to
the dogma the doctrine all of that with the Catholic with
the Catholic religion.
There was so much to it that I was like wait that doesn't
make sense.
You said here to do this and here to do that and it just seems
like, you know, there's so much hypocritical stuff happening
there.
I it's in a line for me and I would question it constantly
and get in trouble in school constantly.
So honestly when I met Jeff, like I said, he was really
into Native American very Earth based belief system and I
started meditating and somehow it was just like this organic
switch to I don't feel it was a it was a switch from a fear
based belief system right Catholicism is oh if you don't
follow these rules, you're going to go to hell to a love
based belief system where men are inherently good and men
and women I should say, you know what I mean, but and that it
was all this is like all part of the process.
I am not even kidding you.
So I started out with oh God, I better go to church, you know,
like I'm when I say I pray I prayed with my whole heart.
But when I went to church and my son my the son that was in
school, my oldest was in Catholic school.
They did nothing for us.
I don't mean nothing in the sense of you know, they didn't
he didn't have to pay tuition and all that but as far as
the emotional support and not that they didn't offer it.
It just didn't work for us.
It was you know, if he was upset over it and he went to the
office the principal would say to him very lovingly and very
kindly, you know, she would let him come in whenever he needed
to but she would say to him well, you just have to have
faith and pray on it.
You know, an eight-year-old boy doesn't want to hear that.
So I just did what came naturally to me which was sit and
find quiet and pray and hold on to what I knew to be true.
And I know that it sounds like supernatural woohoo kind of
stuff, but I really looked for the signs.
I asked him for signs.
I looked for the signs and when I got them I believed in them
and that literally was what pulls me through because there
were so many of them that we could do an entire episode.
Yes on that that were undeniable people would be like, are
you making that up like you I mean, yeah, so so that's and
and since then.
It's sort of one of those things where you believe something
and then it's confirmed so it strengthens your belief and as
as I've continued on this journey.
I have learned that.
Yeah, I 100% believe in an energy that is way bigger than
me with whatever you want to call it.
I don't care and there is certainly a collective consciousness
right like an energy that comes just from everyone's
everyone's thoughts feelings and experiences and sort of
hovers above and infuses all of us.
Yeah.
Well, I think this is so important here and is a very
positive reason why I wanted to see if that was what your
experience was.
I got a slight hint of it from that podcast I listened to
before but I've had people on here and specifically the
Christian Church, you know, the the the Muslim faith, you
know, whatever whatever they found themselves in that work
for them and you said the word belief so but what I want to
put out there is that there's also people where it didn't
work for one of my good friends went to oh my God chaplain
such I always that word always falls out my head.
So the local chaplain and he was going through his own
mental health struggles and being told God has a plan have
faith all this it just didn't resonate with them.
So I think it's important that for people to hear that even
if you were raised in a certain doctrine if that doesn't
work, it doesn't mean that therefore you are doomed.
It may be, you know, molding the clay a little bit and
creating your own personal version of your faith.
I think is very important and I find that's what was sad.
We're talking about an event that was supposedly because
of religious differences, which I disagree.
I think it was about money power and greed fundamentally
if you look at it, but you know when we start focusing on
minutiae is when there's this conflicts fundamentally.
I think all you know, all the the accepted religious
doctrines agree with each other be kind be compassionate
be generous, you know, take care of each other.
Don't murder rape pillage, you know, I mean that they're
pretty fundamental things through all of them.
So, you know, I think that therefore there is, you know,
that you said God higher energy universe, whatever we
even the agnostic atheist, whatever tend to still believe
in the same thing.
They just again term it differently.
But yeah, that we're we're definitely part of something
much bigger and I think that we all are related and there
was energy when we were alive.
Why wouldn't there be energy when we, you know, move
transition to whatever form it is and my wife lost her
boyfriend before me to suicide.
I have witnessed with my own eyes, Danny sending Becky
messages through battery powered bookshelf lights that
had no reason to be blinking on and off to things sounding
like they fell off a table and there's nothing around to
fall off or to even make that sound.
I mean just so yeah, I mean I agree whether you call it
a miracle whether it's Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad or
whoever, I think that that's just it.
We don't we don't need to stay in little boxes.
You put yourself in whatever box you want to make for
yourself, but that's your own personal box and you
should be allowed to define it.
However, you want as long as you're not forcing on someone
else.
I want to I want to address two things that you said in
that one being how most religions are all saying the
same thing, right?
It's sort of it's sort of I mean, I in my opinion religions
were were created to sort of give a value structure to
societies, right?
So they all do have similar messages.
I started studying different religions after this because
I was just interested.
I didn't know a lot about Islam and I wanted to be more
because I was like how could a religion be so hateful and
after 9-eleven?
I don't remember who said this but there was a it was a
chaplain.
It's like there was another chaplain who is speaking on
the whole like you said, you know religious differences
and and the point that he made.
Oh my God, it's stuck with me.
He said for every religion right there's oh when there's
there's once they start to become radical right there
there is and there's a power struggle in and the inherent
evil that comes with that and you find that in every single
religion.
It's not just Islam like we had David Kourash Catholics had
David Kourash right?
He took the Bible and turns it into a means of manipulating
people for his own his own use and that was so was that
Waco?
Yeah.
So I mean every religion there's there's always people who
take these belief systems that are based on love and kindness
and turn them into something that is just evil.
Self-serving and self-serving.
Yeah, which is the opposite of love compassion and kindness,
right?
So there's a huge irony that they take something that
originally was was intended to do good in the world and they
make it to do bad in the world.
Yeah.
Yep.
So with with that then you you know, you're you're finding
your own spiritual path.
At what point did you come across yoga and realize that
that was again as we talked about earlier the healing
physical side to add to the emotional growth.
Well, honestly when I first went to yoga, it wasn't even
like for any kind of spiritual reason.
I was still in the midst of the shit show as I like to call
it because I was very busy.
I knew instantly I knew that I had like I felt myself fall
apart.
And my biggest fear was I wasn't going to be able to well,
not that I wasn't going to be able to take care of my kids.
I wasn't so concerned about that.
What I was concerned about was how do I tell them and rate
and in the in the in a way where I don't destroy their
belief in humanity and where this one event as as
devastating as it was doesn't become devastating in terms
of the rest of their lives, right?
How do I raise children that still finds good in the world?
And so I went to therapy like instantly because it's like
I don't know where the frig do I start with that.
Let me go talk to somebody right so and I wanted to know
like I didn't I didn't know how my reaction anyway, so I
started with therapy in October like right after and I was
going to therapy.
I was working out because I I would have not like to work
out.
I would have rather lay in my bed every day and disappear
but I couldn't do that.
My sister would drag me to the gym and I knew that movement
made me feel better.
I didn't know anything about any of this any of the real,
you know science behind or anything.
I just knew that okay when I move I feel better and the
whole thing with the spirituality like go to church
didn't work and would have what I found this at one moment
I would feel like mentally strong and maybe my body
didn't feel great or my body felt great, but I was falling
apart in my head and you know, I couldn't find something
to pull it all together.
I had moved to Jersey.
I was working out like a maniac at this point because you
know your body can only experience one pain at a time.
So I was doing that and I got so stiff.
I was like, I got a stretch or something like I'm always
sore.
So I saw a yoga studio.
I was like, oh, I didn't really know anything about yoga.
I said, let me just hop in here and see how it goes and I
had no idea that it was a hot yoga studio.
Bikram in particular, if you don't know what that is, it's
105 degrees 26 poses.
People were half naked.
I was like in sweatpants ready for a workout.
I thought I was going to die and I was like, what am I
doing in here at the end of the class, you know, the final
pose in yoga is called Shavasana and it's corpse pose
like you lay there and you just integrate all the, you
know, newly oxygenated blood.
You let everything settle and all of that and I found myself
like tears were just pouring and I'm like, oh my God, thank
God.
It's so freaking sweaty in here because why am I crying?
I'm crying like so I left and when I left I had this lightness.
I felt happy for no reason and that was I wouldn't say it
was the first time but it was so noticeable to me that I
was kind of like, am I happy because of this yoga class or
is it just because two years now has gone by like is time
healing my wounds.
I just feel happy like I felt like myself for a split second
and I didn't know if it was the yoga or not, but I decided
to go back and then I realized after going I'm like, wow,
this feels different and I stopped working out and I just
started doing yoga every day and that was when that was when
my healing was not only put on fast forward, but it was grief
was given a name and it was also I just gained so much
clarity around the way my body was feeling the way my the
sadness that I felt how it was connected to other experiences
in my life.
Like it sort of just brought it all together and I thought
I sounds like the Holy Grail everybody at that point.
I was like everybody needs to do yoga.
This is like this is the key to happiness and everyone in
the world should be doing it and I acted like that for a
long time.
Like I wanted everybody to see yoga.
So what did you witness then?
I mean they said you two years gone now, you know, how how
much of that magnify the healing of course, it's not forgetting.
It's not getting over.
I mean you're going to have that void, you know in your
heart for the rest of your life, but what what did you
see shift when you really started practicing regularly?
Energetically, I know this now so I can put words to it.
I probably wouldn't have been able to back then but energetically
every emotion has a vibration right and grief is one of those
and trauma are very low vibrating emotions as you would
suspect and we have the ability to raise that love love is
the highest vibrating emotion and these can be measured,
you know, so there there is science behind it.
I think the movement the specific movements in yoga yoga
works on a cellular level.
It's not just stretching your muscles.
And so just being and being being more in tune with my body
tapping deep, you know into my intuition and recognizing it
as that being able to see the full circle of life and
also I want to think of the right words to say this.
There's a level when you you know being able to be in a group
of people that work on a soul level was was eye-opening for
me because most people don't speak in those terms even if
they do work, you know, even if that's their belief system,
they don't talk about it all the time because you people think
it's you know, like it's so crazy, but I realized the role
that Jeff played in my life and how every single experience
up to meeting him served a purpose how I was well equipped
to handle everything that was given to me and that what I
put my attention on is that was probably the biggest thing
that I would see.
So if I held myself in a state of gratitude daily, I would
see positivity throughout the day if I woke up and I was like
my god another day like, you know, that was how I would feel
all day.
So I learned that I could change my own vibration by moving
my body music what I put into my body as far as nutrition my
belief system meditating all of that.
It just it just changed.
I guess not just my mindset, but my whole being beautiful.
Well one more thing, you know about healing and then we'll
move forward because I want to hear how you found OEW that
was your journey.
You had young children who lost their father.
How were you able to to again stop that cycle of trauma?
I mean, of course the trauma was there, but how were you able
to kind of apply your healing philosophy to your children
and try and minimize the damage that losing their father had
done to them?
All right.
So this was something that I wasn't sure if I was actually
doing right, you know, it was kind of like I was just winging
it because I was you know, I didn't really know anyone that
we had ever been in my position before so young with three
kids that lost their husband.
So I really was just but my therapist said something to me
that stuck with me and I just prayed that she was right.
She said that I set the tone.
I set the tone by how how I handle my greets will model for
them how they should handle their grief.
So she said to me, I like I said, I wasn't a crier.
She said that always be open always be honest.
Don't hide your feelings.
Even if you feel like they're upsetting to them, you can
always say to them, you know, it's okay to cry when you get
sad.
Sometimes you cry and this way they were able to feel
comfortable with whatever came up for them.
My older guy went to therapy.
He went for a little bit.
It you know, at that age, he really they did some play
therapy.
Some things came up at the therapist basically said to me
you'll revisit this again when he's in his teens, which we
did and then I think one of the most important we talk about
Jeff to this day regularly and it was about experiences my
life with them became about experiences like showing them
that the world was the world's was good that they were safe
and we just did I mean, you know, I tried to expose them
to as many things as I could so they could find what made
them feel feel good.
So a lot of snowboarding traveling skiing.
I don't know.
We're always kayaking biking, you know, we were always doing
something and what I found for each of them is when they
went away to college that first year in college being away
from home not being in a familiar environment not having
the same routine.
They all I mean, I think every freshman struggles but they
in particular had had some revisiting to do a lot of
questions would cut all three of them.
They started asking me a lot of questions around 9-eleven
had it, you know, where exactly was daddy.
What was the story?
Is there anybody here?
I had one of the firemen actually talked to my oldest
son.
He wanted to know like what happened that day.
So one of the firemen that was there was kind enough to sit
with him and tell him everything he remembered and that's
how he did it.
So I wasn't sure if what I was doing was right.
Like I would always offer for them to go to therapy if they
needed it or whatever.
But now that they're adults I can say that I did something
right.
I don't know because they're all amazing.
They're all well-adjusted healthy happy.
You know, my oldest is married.
He just had a baby.
So I'm a grandma and he's doing great and my daughter is getting
her graduate degree.
My youngest is just finishing up at University of Tampa and
yeah, they're all happy healthy kids.
Beautiful.
Well, it's interesting hearing your oldest wanting to hear
from a firefighter.
I had Debbie Leon who is a Gold Star mother her son Mark Lee
who actually was killed today.
This is the anniversary of his death.
He was the first seal that was killed in Iraq and you know,
one of the healing things for her was just having other
seals tell her stories and there's always unique perspectives
and you know, that they just paint a picture, you know,
think a lot of these people just want to know and even if
it was bad, they just want to know they want it adds layers
it adds color to that tapestry that was their their experience
of their son or mother or father or you know, whatever it
was.
So that's a powerful perspective to hear from you as well.
I think there's also something to be said for I know with
operate with special forces in particular.
I've done some work with, you know, the Gold Star Gold Star
widows.
The similarity between between losing your husband when he
is in special forces and to 9-eleven.
I didn't even realize that until you know, I started working
with them, but there's there's something to be said for not
knowing where someone is right.
A lot of times they have no idea where their husbands are.
Everything is, you know, it's it's kept its national security.
So they're not allowed to know where they are often that they
don't I know some of the widows that I worked at didn't get
any, you know, they never got to see their husband again.
There was no it was just like me with Jeff.
I never got to see him again, even though we got his remains
back.
It was literally remains, you know, you don't get to see a
face and it's very hard to come to terms with losing someone
when you don't actually see them not alive.
So for kids, I would imagine that that would be magnified
and those stories mean everything.
It helps you put the pieces together because there's like a
gaping hole.
You don't know.
I don't really know what happened to Jeff.
I know he went in there.
You know, the towers fell.
I had heard stories of what happened while he was in there,
but I don't really know because no one that was with him is
alive to tell me and it's often it's the same thing in the
military.
They don't actually know what happened.
It's such a powerful, you know, perspective and such a
tragic perspective and even it's kind of reminded me of something
that I just learned recently.
I had some a group of firefighter wives on the show and
they range from their partners were volunteers all the way
through to career and it's kind of an element of that too.
The career men and women go off and we're at a station.
So as you said special operations is a negative side.
There was actually a positive side because they also didn't
know where they were going.
They didn't hear us get toned out to some god-awful fire.
Right, right, right.
So we just left but the volunteer families, they hear the
pager.
They hear the radio report, whatever it is and they know
daddy's going off to some horrendous fire or some mass
shooting or whatever that, you know, immediately alarms the
entire family before they even walk through the door.
So that actually magnifies in a way the trauma for that
particular thing.
So yes, they saw a moments prior but they don't know if
they're going to see him again versus I packed my bag at,
you know, 5 a.m.
for 14 years, walked out the door and really my family just
assumed I'd walk back 24 hours later, you know, so it is a
very interesting hearing all these different views and how
they factor in either positively or negatively.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think even as you're as you're going as you're
going through it, some of these things they don't you don't
I would I would stay up nights.
I mean, I was in this cycle immediately after September
11th where I couldn't sleep right.
So I would be up like two three days in a row almost and then
just pass out from exhaustion was it was crazy.
But I would I would be on the computer looking for anything
anything just to try to create a story around what happened
to him.
So when people share with you different experiences, it's
it's almost like you're you're so hungry for it that you don't
you don't you don't even understand the importance of it
until you look back on it.
If that does that make any sense?
I don't know if I'm getting across that I'm trying to say
but when I look back on it now and I think of conversations
that I had with different with different firemen different
family members different, you know, civilians that were in
the area everybody's I at the time I could only I could only
take in what was happening in my world.
Now I can see the bigger picture and appreciate everyone
else's perspectives.
I didn't have that capacity.
So I could hear what they were saying as it affected me, but
I didn't see the bigger, you know, like I couldn't even see
the bigger picture.
Absolutely.
Well, I know we had kind of touched on this before we start
recording.
I want to make sure we get to it before we transition to
rucking what you're doing now and then some closing questions
if you've got time.
Yeah, so when September 11th happened I was in Japan and it
was a strange thing.
There was a time difference.
It was actually night nighttime in Japan.
My son's mother and I had been out for a meal.
We came back and this big apartment building that was
basically half Australian half American and a few of us
Europeans thrown in there.
Normally it's everyone's in their room.
Well, there's this communal TV room downstairs and the whole
building is in front of the TV and we're like what the hell
is going on and they told us all planes hit a tower in New
York and we're like, oh no, you know, that's awful.
And then right when we're like two minutes after we walked in
the second plane here.
So I think one of my friends one of her family members, I
think it was her sister was in there.
She actually managed to make it out.
She's one of the civilians that probably whether it was
courageous co-workers and or responders, you know, she's
one of the lives that was saved by their heroism.
But the next evening I think it was they held a vigil and
everyone spoke and there was people were super angry and
want revenge and you know, this stuff and I remember saying
you know, this is absolutely awful and we cannot get those
lives back.
But I hope this doesn't lead to losing countless more as we
start going to war and pursuing, you know, whoever and then
fast-forward you and I sitting down right before the 20th
anniversary and sadly there's an element of that.
There are definitely some conflicts that you know lasted
a very long time.
We've lost I think we lost more I believe than we lost in
the towers in the military side.
We've got the 9-11 cancers, which again, you know, that's
not so much avoidable because those are responders, but
there's a ripple effect.
There's a huge death toll attached to this which is
heartbreaking because that was, you know, something that I
was worried about.
So we touched on this before we start recording.
So give me your perspective on that.
Well, what I was sharing with you was that I think of it
often I mean between working with the military and now
having developed, you know, so many friendships with members
of the military and then having my fire department family.
I think that there's so much focus on September 11th and
the lives that were lost on that day and like I had said
to you, I always appreciate the acknowledgement but for
me right now, I think that the focus needs to shift to
the families that are currently in it and suffering and
grieving. We've lost so many service members whether it
was in combat to illnesses that were caused by toxic exposure
while they were deployed to suicide, firemen, same exact
thing, toxic exposure, suicide, police officers.
I mean the number of police officers committing suicide
recently is ridiculous, right?
So there are people that are still living 9-11 right now
that we don't give enough attention to or support to.
Yeah, I agree completely.
Well, you found yourself surrounded with some people from
that population when it came to Operation Enduring Warrior.
Obviously the Give team were attached to that and they're
local here and then Go Ruck, Jason and Emily, again,
another military background that served during the 9-11
era. So how did you find yourselves amongst those great
people and then we'll transition into your very powerful
Ruck that you have coming up.
Well, I honestly, it was all serendipitous and this is one
of the reasons why I say that when you look back on things,
there is a plan because if you asked me like you said when
you were young, what did you think you would be?
I never thought that I would be doing what I'm doing right
now. So there was no plan to this.
There was a bigger plan that I didn't know about obviously.
But after I started doing yoga, like I said, I thought it
was like the cure-all for everything.
So and the fire department was telling guys that once the
counseling unit, you know, go take a yoga class, but they
weren't going to go.
They were like this at that time.
Just think of how different our perception is now of what yoga
is compared to 20 years ago.
People really thought it was a bunch of hippies and just some
kind of crazy woohoo movement.
It wasn't even considered actual exercise or nevermind therapy.
So the fire department said that these guys were like, there's
no way but then they would call me up because they knew I was
doing it and they would be like, where can we go take yoga?
Or, you know, can you give us yoga classes?
So I was like, let me, I went to a teacher training and got
my certification.
I offered it to the fire department, but there was some
kind of thing with the Union and this and that that they
couldn't have someone it was, you know, some political nonsense.
So that never happened.
But in the meantime, just serendipitously a fireman who was
also a veteran was going down to Walter Reed for some kind of
like a barbecue or something where the fireman would go and
host a barbecue for the military.
And while he was so he asked me to babysit his son so he could
go and do that.
And I was like, sure, our boys are like the same age while he
was down there.
He ran into the one of the founders of Hope for the Warriors
who is now one of my best friends Tina atharol and he was
telling her about me and she was telling him about a military
wellness program that they were funding in New York.
So they had they had everything it was really they had equine
therapy art therapy acupuncture.
Like it was a really well-rounded program.
The only thing they didn't have was a yoga program.
So he was like she would be a great fit and what was happening
was civilians were going in to teach yoga for whatever reason
it wasn't working out.
So I went I got the job.
It happened to be in Queens.
My oldest started college that year at st.
John's so it was right near his school being the Italian mama.
I was like, yeah, I don't mind driving from New Jersey once
or twice a week.
I'll go teach yoga and I'll bring my son some food.
But while I was there I somehow got roped into doing a go rock
event and it wasn't even with the service members that were
in the program because it was that program was actually an
inpatient unit for PTSD was like severe post-traumatic stress
some some service members were flown in right from their
commands.
I mean it was it was heavy duty but the hope for the Warriors
group there there, you know a few of the people that worked
at hope for the Warriors were going to do a go rock event.
One of them was in the army and he ended up having to go to
training.
So there was an open spot and he said oh Denise you could take
it.
So I was like, okay, I'll do it.
What is it?
He said, you know, it's like a tough mother.
I said, all right.
Then I went home and googled what go rock was and nearly shit
my pants.
I was like I cannot do this.
I had instant anxiety.
I was like I am going to die.
I can't do this but I showed up and it was actually funny the
cadre that I had is no longer with the organization, but he
didn't know that I was the widow now our team was made up
of we had a service member who had lost his arm.
We had a gold star.
What did we have?
We had a gold star somebody.
I don't remember if it was a sister or brother trying to
think of who the heck it was.
I know we had a blue star sister military spouse like it
was everybody that was on our team was connected to the
military one way or the other.
So the cadre was relentless with me like didn't stop from
beginning to end.
I was just a person that he chose to pick on and I'm very
sassy, especially when I start to get hungry.
So it was like we you know, the bands are back and forth back
and forth.
I finished the event after the event Tina goes over to give
a coin to the cadre and said to him what a great team we have,
you know, blue star sister 9-11 widow and he goes, what do
you mean?
Who's the 9-11 what he goes don't tell me it's Denise.
So she was like, yeah, you didn't know that.
So he continued after that to do an event in honor of my husband
they surprised me.
I didn't know I told them I they were coming into New York.
I was like, oh, I'll come in shadow or whatever and they
ended up doing an event in honor of Jeff.
So that was how the whole I got so involved in the go rock
community.
Then they started doing their 9-11 events and I offered to
help be like the liaison between the cadre and the firehouses
that they wanted to visit and so that was that how that
relationship developed.
Oh, we W I think I met through rock to remember.
I would do that event.
I did that event a few years in a row and I spoke at it a couple
of times.
So I think that I met I think the first person I met was John
Lopez and I don't my memory is terrible.
I know that I think it was the first time I had any interaction
with OEW was there and then I would go and do you know, they
did some run in the city or whatever.
I would meet up with them whenever I could and then they
wanted to do tunnels to towers.
So they helped me organize I would do the run.
I would do tunnels to towers every year and do a team for
Jeff, but they wanted to come and join us and that was
fantastic.
So we did that event together and the gift team.
I just met through Lopez and when they first I guess when
they first started Brad and Lopez started talking they were
looking for some support around Thanksgiving the kids.
I think you know a lot of them are going to be by themselves
and so Lopez I was like, hey, you know, let me know what I
could do and I'll do whatever I can to help support that.
So yeah, it's just like you said, it's this little golden
red you meet one person brings you to another person and
that's it before you know it you're surrounded by all these
beautiful humans.
Absolutely.
Well speaking of which the the tunnels of towers the Steve
Sillers event was the stair climbing day with the Rob Jones
and his mom and dad Stevens mom and dad were at the top floor
to welcome everyone.
So another interaction.
Yeah, beautiful.
Yeah, I've never done this stair climb.
Yeah, it was good.
The only funny thing was is I packed all my gear and I was
actually going to borrow an SCBA from one of my FDNY friends
and paid for an extra suitcase and everything we got there
and one more trade had just opened up and they were like,
yeah, no you can't let anyone wear their gear.
Right?
No, no, you basically just running a tire is all you can
take because of the security initially.
So I know if it's changed now or not.
Now, I don't know if it has I remembered I remember hearing
that from someone.
I don't know if it has like I said, I don't I don't ever
do that event.
But I do do the tunnels the towers are on if you've never
done it.
It's an experience.
Yeah, it's definitely on my list.
I think hopefully I'll be in Europe this year because I
haven't seen my family for two years and they finally
reduced I mean that eliminated the quarantine for travelers
from the US to the UK.
You still got to do all the covid tests and stuff.
Yeah, even if you're vaccinated, which I still don't understand
the science behind that but I know anyway, well then talk
to me about your event.
So we actually connected you were talking in front of 1010
and you were announcing something.
So tell me what it is and when you know how people can
help with it.
So I every year I try to do, you know, do something and
with the 20th anniversary if I don't plan anything what ends
up happening is I get into this rut like I will be home and
put the TV on and I it's it just never feels right.
So I wasn't sure what I was going to be doing for the 20th
anniversary.
We have the new baby and all of that and then Danny actually
called me and said that he was going to do this rock from
Boston Logan International.
I don't know if you heard him talk about it, but it was
actually funny because he planned this for someone else.
It was a police officer that is also involved in all of these
groups go rock and all of that who had wanted to walk across
the country.
He was there on that.
He wanted to walk across the country for the 20th anniversary
and Stokes Danny was sort of like that's a big undertaking.
You know, you're gonna need a lot of time off from work for
that.
And so then they scaled it down and Danny said why don't we
try to make it?
You know, like a meaning from one meaningful location to
another and they decided to do Boston Logan where the planes
took off from to the world to the World Trade Center.
The person he originally designed it for backed out.
He couldn't get the time off.
So he didn't he couldn't do it and Danny was going to do it
on his own and he asked me if I could help him with the, you
know, getting into the city.
He was like, it'll just be like a tough mother.
No, he wasn't even he was like, you know, maybe you want to
meet up with me when I get closer to New York or if you
want to come to Boston and so I was like, yeah, I'll come to
Boston and I'll do the step off with you and then I'll catch
up with you in New York.
So then I don't know a couple of we we I don't know what when
I came I was on my way to Calif.
I was actually in the airport when he called me so when I
came home I called him again and we were just talking about
his plan and I was like, you know what?
I'm just going to do the whole thing with you.
How many miles a day are you doing?
So he was saying like 80 miles a day.
So I said, all right, I'll just do the entire thing and then
we decided that we were really going to try to make it sort
of a movement to raise awareness.
Danny always tells the story which I absolutely love about
that picture.
He I forget where he was stationed but there was a picture
like in the locker room and it's a it's a very famous drawing
of a fireman handing the flag off to a soldier.
I don't know if you've ever seen it.
Yes, I have.
Yep, right.
So it meant the world to Danny because that was exactly his
experience right like he was already in the army and then
the World Trade Center collapsed and that began his whole,
you know all the deployments and all that so in that just
just keeping that in mind and then exactly what you and I
were talking about that we always want to honor and acknowledge
every single life that was lost that day, but also bring awareness
to the people that are currently suffering the lives that
that have been lost since then.
So that's what we're doing.
We're going to make our way from Boston all the way to New
York.
Hopefully I make it in one piece, but I know I will finish.
I have to crawl into the firehouse.
We're still in we have most of the route laid out.
We have the last few days Danny still working on.
I don't see the logistics.
He's so good at that.
I'm I'm not so yeah, and I don't want to we're getting some
really good sponsorship.
I don't want to say it yet because I don't have the I mean
I have the commitment, but I just am not 100% you know,
like it's not actually in the hasn't happened.
All the right, right.
So I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but we do have
a wonderful family that has an Airbnb that is hosting us in
Boston. So when we get there, we're starting off at the US
so in the airport and we will rock to that Airbnb, which I
believe is like eight miles away from the airport and then
that family I wish I knew their name, but I don't it's a
friend of Danny's.
They're having a whole cookout for us and everything.
So anyone that's in the area that wants to come and wish us
well or even join us they can come and then we'll do the
first day of 18 miles and they're picking us up at the
end and driving us back to the Airbnb and then in the morning
they'll bring us back to where we left off so we can continue
the next day.
Yeah, I'm really I'm looking forward to it.
Brilliant.
What day do you leave the airport?
We step off on August 29th.
Okay, brilliant.
We will be in New London, Connecticut by September 3rd
and we will be taking the fourth off.
That is our only rest day and then we'll continue down from
Connecticut into New York.
Beautiful.
Are you ending at station 1010 at the end?
All right, so that's our plan.
That's I mean, I'm confident that that's what will happen.
But we just found out that President Biden is supposed to
be at the firehouse and that's going to create a huge security
issue and probably make it more difficult for us.
Very frustrating.
Yeah, politics take over these like this.
Absolutely.
Yeah, there's a lot of I've kind of joked about this in the
past politicians always show up right before it's election
time.
Then you don't see him again.
Well, you see him soon down turning down, you know health
initiatives turning down pay raises, you know things like
that.
But yeah, show the hell up when it benefits them.
There's a movement amongst 9-11 families.
It was actually I mean, I'm not going to I'm not speaking
for all of them.
I'm not even speaking for myself, but we received letters.
We received letters from our attorneys to send a letter to
the fire to the White House asking that he not come because
it does take away from especially for me at 10 house.
You know, we can never on the anniversary go.
I don't usually go to the firehouse on the anniversary.
I'll either go the night before or I'll go during the week.
I don't usually ever go on the 11th because you can't have
any privacy.
I can't just be with the guys in the firehouse.
It's in constant influx of strangers politicians anyone
that has any kind of affiliation to the fire department anyone
that knows somebody I guess I should say that that can get
permission to be down there is in the firehouse.
It's just it should be it should be a day where we can do
what we want amongst our own little family not have to worry
about politicians and anyone else for that matter.
Yeah, no, I agree completely even when when I saw the guys
from 1010 they were I think someone they were doing something
with the station.
So they actually park in the rig outside and they were backing
up to the parking space when they were done.
I just went over and gave him some cars to the podcast.
I'm like this is you know free free podcast for you.
This is what it's about, you know, thanks for what you do
by because because again, I understand completely whether
it's politicians where there's media.
Let me very clear.
I'm talking about politicians doesn't care what color tie
you're wearing a lot of them absolutely abuse their privilege
and don't leave people alone and the same with the media.
I mean one of the most like just inhumane things I think you
can do is go get your microphone and shove it in the face
of someone who just lost someone like we see over and all your
kid was just killed.
How do you feel the fuck you think I feel good?
You know get out of my way, you know, so.
It just I mean, I think that that's the problem is that it's
more important to them to get the photo up in the station.
For example than to understand that the best thing you could
do is maybe go on camera and say hey, we're going to go to
station 10, but we have too much respect for those guys
and their their families.
So we're going to go over here instead.
I mean everyone would respect you even more.
So that way it's not about the photo up.
You're still you know paying tribute to everyone that was
lost, but you'll be in respectful at the same time, right?
No, I agree with you.
I always that's something that I don't know if I would have
been so in tune to if I didn't have the life experience that
I had because I see now like you said when something terrible
happens.
It's like why would you ever put this picture up?
The family has to continually see this and especially with
the you know with the internet things are on there forever.
So when you show somebody laying on the ground or you know
a grieving widow throwing herself on a casket or something
her children have to look at that for the rest of their
lives.
It's but it sells papers.
And brings up ratings for some reason our whole society.
I mean they wouldn't do it if people didn't look at it,
right?
So yeah, well exactly.
I always talk about those god-awful magazines when you're
at the checkout in a supermarket that you know, the National
Enquirer and you know, all these hello.
Okay, whatever they are and they're all just fabricating
stories.
But yeah, we have to look at ourselves.
If you're one of the ones one of the people that buys that
shit you're part of the problem.
Exactly.
I did an interview after 9-eleven and it was because the
Daily News and I will call them out over and over posted my
like I was not notified of Jeff's death.
I read it in the paper and they knew they were not supposed
to put any names in unless there was a positive identification
and you know how it was not easy to identify these guys,
right?
They I'm not going to get into specifics, but the firefighters
they thought they were easily identified because they were
basically the reason more firefighters were found than
civilians was because of the bunker gear, right?
So if they found remains and it was in bunker gear, they, you
know, the assumption would be well, whatever the name was on
the bunker gear is who these remains belong to.
But you couldn't depend on that because there were people
running, you know, they were fired and running into
firehouses, especially 10 because it was right there and
grabbing gear that guys that were off-duty were coming in
and just grabbing stuff and throwing it on so that they
could run in.
So you had to wait for an ID and they didn't they didn't so
the way that I found out was one of Jeff's best friends
called me and said did you get a call today?
So I said no, why should I have and they said, well, there's
something in the paper and I was like, so this friends of
Jeff's he grew up with him.
He's like, he can't pronounce anything, right?
Right.
So I didn't try I go Danny read it to me read it to me
because I maybe you're not reading it, right?
So he read it to me and right away I called Jeff's captain
and I said, hey, I saw this in the paper and he was beside
himself that I knew before they could give me official
notification.
So I went on someone asked to interview me and I did the
interview interview purely because I did not want that to
happen to somebody else the way they twisted my words like,
you know, they just caught they took little segments and
like pieced it together.
I was infuriated.
I was like, I'm never ever doing an interview again because
I can't I didn't I was so naive to the whole media influence
at the time that I I thought I was just going on there.
Tell my story.
They're going to put it word-for-word and people will get
what I'm trying to say, but they manipulated it into what
they wanted it to sound like it was terrible terrible.
Yeah, and it's that's again the root we talked about, you
know, the challenges if your health care system is based on
profit from the sick that it's not going to benefit the
nation and the same with this if you get media from
organizations that are set up to sell advertising space you
end up with this diverse diversive clickbait, you know,
horrendous environment that we've seen whether it's covid
whether it's BLM and police and you know, whatever it is,
you know, whatever it is the rest of us are in the middle
going like a tennis game like what the hell is going on?
Well, these two extreme sides just do it but yeah, but there's
there's a lack of compassion.
I saw that quite a few of my friends were at the Parkland
shooting a school full of children and I'm sure it was
the same at Sandy Hook and you know, these other places and
the way the media acted on those scenes was disgusting.
I'm sure there were some good journalists amongst them, but
overall it was awful.
What yeah, I actually I've done some work with Tuesday's
Children, which is another fantastic organization and they
were started around 9-11, but now they serve any child who
has lost a family member to any act of violence or terrorism
whether it's domestic terrorism or you know, foreign so I
have heard from family members of that particular incidence
and how devastating watching the news was for them.
I mean, it really is so heartless when it comes down to
it.
I don't know who makes that final decision to put some of
what they put on the TV or in the newspapers, but yeah, it's
really it's really terrible.
I was saying I think there should be and there is now like
a few good news stations, right like telling us the good that
people do because that's the media focuses so much on all
the the negative if you it's the only thing you ever got to
watch was the news you would think that that people were
horrible.
But they just don't focus enough on on all the good that
happens. I think for every tragedy the only way any of us
survived any of it is through the good of other people and
that's what people should be focusing on.
It's similar to what Mr.
Rogers said, right?
Whenever something did you ever hear that quote?
I'm going to screw it up because I'm I really mess up any
quote.
I try to say but it's something to the effect of whenever
something happens always look for the good guys.
Because they're always there.
They're always there and in that same thought process whenever
you're going through something yourself that is so devastating.
I think it's important.
I know that when you're going through it, you won't have it
in the front of your mind, but
I know that it's an opportunity to become a better version of
yourself every time you're that broken.
You're given the opportunity to either let it eat you alive
or you can take that pain right pain is as powerful as an
energy as as love is and you can harness that into something
good.
Beautiful.
Well, I think that's the perfect place to transition to
some quality content.
Before well, I think that's the perfect place to transition to
some closing questions.
I love that.
The first question I love to ask is there a book that you
love to recommend it can be related to our discussion today
and we've talked about a lot of stuff or completely unrelated.
Well related to our discussion.
I am going to say the body keeps the score by Bessel van
der Kolk.
That's a great book.
It's a great book on trauma and currently I am reading this
is like a great self-help book.
Now, let me see if I get this right.
Currently I am reading a book called the journey.
No conscious loving conscious loving the journey to co-commitment.
It is so powerful.
Gay Hendrix is one of the authors and I think there are two
authors.
It might be his wife the other one, but he also wrote a book
called the big leap, which is fantastic quick easy read, but
this book that I'm reading right now.
Oh my goodness.
It is so so easy to read and so enlightening every single page.
I'm like, oh wow, I could relate to that.
Beautiful but I haven't heard that one before.
So I'll add that.
I mean, I truly do.
You can see behind me.
There's a big old bunch of bookshelves there.
I know I try and I try and get as many as I can from the list,
but obviously I have to pump the break sometimes to actually
have time to read them.
But I'm always you know, I mean, I have body keeps the score.
I haven't actually cracked it yet.
I'm still still working away.
I got a lot of guests.
I got a lot of books coming up.
So I'm I'm speed reading at the moment.
But yeah, I love this question because it really does open the
door to so much information.
Yeah, I've been recommending that the conscious the
journey to co-commit into everyone because it's not just about
romantic relationships.
It's just about how you how your childhood exactly what you
were talking about how those behaviors become so ingrained
and the repetitive patterns that we establish and how that
leaves the foundation for communication and the way we show
up in every relationship in our lives and it offers you a way
to unravel all of that in a really simple way.
But because you know a lot of times we have the information.
I know I know I'm like this because my parents didn't love
me enough.
Well, okay, but what are you going to do about it?
Like that part is not your fault, but it's your responsibility
to heal it.
So that's a really good one.
When you have a chance check it out.
I will definitely thank you.
Well, the next question is there a person you recommend to
come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders
military and Associated Professions of the world?
Oh my gosh, I can make you a list of people that I think that
you should have on as a guest.
The first one I'm going to say is my friend Jason Bresler.
So Jason and I actually talked a while ago and he mentioned
he was writing a book so he wanted to wait but I mean this
was months ago we spoke now.
So I don't know if it would be a good time for him.
I love Jason and I love I mean, I don't love the whole experience
he had with the military and that whole thing, but I do love
the way he has taken his combat experience and applied it to
the fire floor with leadership on the fire.
Great organization.
Someone else my friend Tina atharol the one that the one that
I that I had referenced earlier.
She is a military spouse.
She started hope for the Warriors.
She was one of the founders of hope for the Warriors which started
out as a grassroots movement just to help the guys that had
been injured when they would come back to Camp Lejeune without
their unit, you know, the unit comes back and there's big
welcome home party, but then these other guys would come back
and there would be no one waiting for them.
So the wife sort of got together and started just by they would
run together and then they started raising money to welcome
these guys back home and now it's this huge national organization
Tina now works for psych armor and they make educational
material for other organizations all around the military
whether it is transitioning back home suicide intervention
prevention postvention.
I mean anything they make all of this educational material.
So that's that's Tina.
She also lost a family member in September 11.
So we always feel like we were brought together just serendipitously.
Who else?
I would say that it would be really interesting to have a kid
not a kid not a kid kid, but someone who lost a parent like I
would be interested to see if my like what my older guy would
have to say about his experience because it's shifted so much
from when he was a little guy not really knowing what was
going on and your perception of death and dying is so different
and now that he has his own son how that plays into his the way
that he frames the entire experience and you've had them some
children of FDMPD that were lost even go into those professions
to which I think is very interesting.
Yeah.
Someone just someone recently.
I'm trying to think of who it was.
I can't the name isn't coming to me, but there was someone who
who just I mean there were a bunch of kids that graduated from
the last Academy class that had brought my my two of my nephews
graduated from the last Academy class.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
So I mean like you said, there's so many so many people out there
and that's that's the beautiful thing about this podcast.
We've been talking almost three hours now.
I know I can't believe it's been three hours.
I'm like what the hell that went quick.
So let me see that.
So the last question I want to make sure I ask you before we
go to where people can find you where people can find your
projects now.
What do you do to decompress?
Oh, that's a good one because I'm so good at decompressing now.
I find that number one.
I make sure that I get enough rest.
That's my you know, everybody's always on this keep busy.
Keep busy.
Keep busy kind of a if you're not busy, you're not productive.
But for me, I am very empathic.
I require a lot of downtime and I used to consider that being
lazy because I grew up in a home where like I wasn't even
allowed to nap.
I would get in trouble if I like tried to take a nap.
So I was like, wow, I'm so like I'm lazy, but it's not that if
I don't do that.
I'm not productive at all.
So rest is number one.
I meditate daily.
I have different ritual practices that I do like I have a
morning ritual of you know, I get up.
I do my meditation.
I set my intention for the day.
I go out for a walk.
Take my dogs with me.
And that is I have a you know, make a little gratitude list
and that is how I start my every day at night.
I try to do the same as far as reviewing my day and instead
of saying, oh, I didn't do this and I should have done that.
I'm just grateful for being able to just make it through another
day honestly, but I go over the things that made me happy.
And we count my my gratitude at the you know, at the end of the
day and then when I go to sleep, I listen to meditations that
are meant for you to listen to while you're sleeping.
So yeah, I do all of that stuff.
I also you know, I rock a lot now that I'm training.
I have to I've been rocking at least five miles every day.
And then getting another workout later on in the day.
So movement is the big huge part.
I you know, yoga all all of that dancing and then I like to
spend time with people that I care about that's that's super
important to me making time for friends family, you know, I
try to live my life through I call it I don't want to even
call it intuition.
It's like I ask myself in the beginning of the day.
What is your soul like what's your soul longing for today?
And then I am fortunate enough.
I know I don't have to work nine to five and unfortunate enough
to be able to attempt to honor that regularly.
So my trick to decompression is really trying not to allow
myself to get to a place where I'm way up here and I really
have to work to come back to Center.
I try to stay centered.
Beautiful.
So to close you have a project strong and soulful.
You have obviously an online presence.
You have the rock.
Where can people learn more about you?
Where can they find you online social media that kind of thing?
They can find me at strong and soulful on Instagram.
They can I mean my personal Instagram is I don't even know
what it is.
I think it's Denise Olsen 0 9 2 5 but strong and soulful is
my is my business Instagram, which I'm trying I just I just
started it.
I actually started it last year.
I don't know if did you get to see that where I went from
the first to the 11th.
I recounted my whole 9-eleven experience and how you could
apply what I learned to quarantine.
No, I missed it.
No, sadly that's the thing is I'm I'm a very selfish social
media user because I don't like getting sucked in too much.
So I normally post and if it doesn't pop up in the first two
or three things and then it's lost an ether.
So I completely missed that.
Well, it's still there.
It's like it's it's a whole bunch of video posts like the
IGTV.
So they're still there.
But if anybody is interested in hearing more of the story if
they go to strong and soulful on Instagram, they'll be able
to see that and that's where I I've been doing interviews
like every Thursday mostly I've been doing mostly for women
because I'm shifting my focus.
I mean, I still have all of my military stuff that I want to
keep, you know, keep supporting military working on PTSD and
trauma and all of that.
But I'm also being called to work with women specifically on
just owning your owning your power showing up as the person
that you were meant to be.
So so I call it the remembering, you know, we know the
remembering coming back to who you were meant to be before you
took on all these other roles that mostly are used to serve
other people whether it's your family of origin the family
that you're with right now, you know, so that's the other side
of my work.
I leave meditation classes around that and I am actually in
the process of developing a workshop for that.
And as far as the rock, Danny created a Facebook page called
the heroes rock Boston's World Trade Center that's on Facebook.
But if anyone wants to reach out to me for any other information
they could always DM me right on Instagram.
I mean my web page is being built right now.
That'll be strong and soulful also, but it's not done yet.
Okay, but that'll be linked to the Instagram page eventually
when it's done.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Well, I just want to say thank you Denise.
I mean, it's so important for us to hear these stories and what
I always make sure I say at the end is I know that your story
is going to help a huge amount of people whether it's people
that are actually really needing to hear this whether it's just
educating us the masses on another perspective of the cost
of that day and all the you know, the ripple effects we talked
about but also acknowledging that there's a toll every time,
you know, someone tells a story like you said, it's therapeutic
to a point and sometimes it can be, you know, peeling scabs
off wounds as it were.
So I want to thank you for being so courageous and transparent
today and also just being so generous with your time giving
us three hours to hear your story.
I don't know if that means I talk too much, but I want to thank
you for taking people's stories and holding them as sacred
as they are because like we were discussing earlier, there
are so many people that take stories and use it for their
own purposes sometimes misconstruing or completely missing
the point of the story.
So I appreciate your authenticity and your desire.
I mean, what a calling to take people and give them a platform
to share things that are honestly, you know, they're difficult
but they're there.
I mean, it's it's almost the most sacred part of your life
sharing things that are so traumatic, you know, I think
I think my grandmother used to tell me I have the gift of
gab and this is how I teach.
I just I love stories.
I love hearing other people's stories.
I want someone to put you on a podcast.
That's what I want.
I've been on a few actually there is there's one coming up
on this show a friend of mine Ryan Parrott who's a veteran
Navy SEAL who now started a project called Oh my god sons
of the flag.
My brain just blank for a second.
He's about to do some incredible things.
I'm I'm I mean, he's already doing incredible things about
to embark in an insane kind of fundraising journey that I've
been blessed to be a part of.
So he said he wants to turn turn the microphone around which
I'm terrified.
But yeah, it'll be it'll be good.
It'll be fun.
It just comes natural to you.
You like to talk you like to listen.
So, I mean that's the joy of podcasting.
Yes.
No it is and I think that's just it that long form conversation.
I mean you didn't talk too much at all.
You just you know actually got to finish your thought process
and I see this over and over again.
I mean some of my shorter ones if there's not you know that
that true connection which happens sometimes especially
people have done a lot of interviews and they kind of go
into interview mode usually some of the short ones is just
time constraints because I feel like most of these I could
keep talking for hours even after they stop.
So yeah, I know I actually you know, it's funny and doing
those interviews.
I do them like every Thursday on Instagram live and it's
been women that I know that I just completely admire and so
Tina who I told you one of my best friends I couldn't wait
to get her on and you know, I figured CEO of psych armor
has it was the hardest her and I talk so often that when I
was trying to talk to her live.
I'm like I didn't even know where to begin.
I felt like I knew everything.
It wasn't anything I was curious about and it was hard
for me to keep the conversation going.
Meanwhile, I mean when I say we talk every day, it's like
we talk every day and I couldn't get a con it was it was
the oddest oddest thing was really funny.
Yeah, it's definitely it's an interesting dynamic.
But when you get in that flow and you're recording I think
it's it's a beautiful thing and you know, I listen to
podcasts how I got into it.
I love podcasts and I my wife's four hours away now in
medical school.
So we commute back and forth and weekends and now I get
some time to really hard.
It's a challenge, but it's you know, it is what it is.
But now, you know, I've got four hours to fill well, you
know this conversation would have pretty much, you know,
taking care of the whole journey.
So yeah, so and you're engaged.
I always tell people you you leave your house something you
get to your destination a little smarter than you left
your house.
So, you know versus you listen to some cheesy DJ on local
radio and you're probably a little bit dumber than you
were before so I 100% agree with that.
I've been really like with the rock.
I've been listening to podcasts like oh my gosh one after
the other because I sometimes I want to listen to music
but I'm like I'm out here for hours.
I don't want to waste so much, you know, so much time.
So I feel like you do if I'm listening to a podcast and
at least learning something.