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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show veteran law enforcement officer and the man behind my arena, Travis Gribble.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from his journey into law enforcement,

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his officer involved shooting, the horrendous child abuse case that began the downward spiral

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of his own mental health, the struggle well program, the dangers of finding a bad therapist,

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EMDR, his post-traumatic growth story and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost a thousand episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you Travis Gribble.

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Enjoy.

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Well Travis, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the behind the shield podcast today.

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It is my pleasure.

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I do my best not to turn down any of these opportunities, just to have as many people

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try to hear the message that we're trying to get across.

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So yeah, it's a privilege to be here.

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Thank you, buddy.

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Absolutely.

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And I wish I could thank someone who connected us, but I want to say your name has come up

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several times.

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So it would be multiple people.

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So I'm off the hook, I think.

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Right on.

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All right.

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Well, very first question, where on planet earth are we finding you today?

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So I am in beautiful Montana.

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I live up in the mountains, about a 900 person town.

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I moved here after I retired from law enforcement out of Mesa PD in Arizona.

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So got 14 acres up here, a very small little house that we built and just loving life up

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in the mountains.

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Brilliant.

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Well, I know that you weren't born there, so let's start at the very beginning of your

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timeline.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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For sure.

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Yeah, so I grew up in Michigan.

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I was actually born in Missouri, but only lived there for a few months, so I have no

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recollection of that.

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But yeah, I grew up in the Michigan area.

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My father was actually a minister for a certain denomination of church.

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But some things happened there.

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And as I was pretty young, he was not in my life a whole lot because at an early age,

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he exited and it was just kind of off again, on again type of relationship, quite frankly,

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until he died just a few years ago.

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So but yeah, I grew up, you know, my mom was the one that raised me pretty much full time.

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You know, I would say lower middle class at best, just didn't have a whole lot, but I

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was very involved in sports, baseball and football.

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Did that my mom and I, you know, we did what we had to do to, you know, to survive and

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just, you know, be together and I guess get me out of the house and, you know, forward

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towards adulthood.

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So but very good memories.

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Grew up in a small town.

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I was not too far away from Lansing, Michigan, which is a big, you know, the capital of Michigan.

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So had that around me, but the area I grew up in was a smaller town.

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Having that experience with your dad and him coming from that certain religion, did that

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jade your experience with faith when you were younger?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah, it definitely did.

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And I wouldn't say just being younger throughout my whole life.

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I guess it's been something that, man, I couldn't even give you an age, but you know, after

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quite a bit of maturity, understanding, you know, that I need to come up with my own beliefs

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and how I felt about everything versus this is just what you were raised in and this is

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what you think about.

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So which I think is good for everyone.

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Everyone has to have those, you know, those, this is going to sound weird, but come to

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Jesus moments to where, hey, is this just what everyone else told me or is this actually

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what I believe?

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So and then I would say throughout my entire professional career, there was a lot of questions

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at times just from the standpoint of seeing all the evil that I was seeing in the world,

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trying to make sense of all that and how it all plays in.

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But I would say now I'm probably the most comfortable I have ever been with my beliefs

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and thoughts on that.

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Josh Brolin shared a quote this morning.

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I forget who it was from, but and I'm going to have to paraphrase because I got a mind

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like a colander, but it was something like make your own Bible and include the words

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that you hear as loud as the two of a trumpet or something like that.

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But that whole concept I've heard a few people talk about and that's what I've done is, you

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know, there's elements of Buddhism, elements of Christianity, whatever it is, elements

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of, you know, just wisdom that you heard from regular, you know, mortals like ourselves

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and you're like, that's, that's my collation.

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And the same way as I'm going to get into it, your toolbox to help you with your physical

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health or your mental health is everyone's is different.

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This is my own personal opinion.

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I think it's the same with faith.

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And so to be told, oh no, you just have to listen to the way I interpret this holy book

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in my church.

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And if you don't, then you're going to hell.

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I think that that might do harm to some people rather than good.

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I would agree.

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I would say, you know, my wife and I are very much aligned in this, probably organized religion

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of current times is probably done more damage than good just because, you know, a lot of

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hypocrisy and are you just following the leader and not really taking time to think.

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And that's, that's a place where we've come to where, yeah, we, we definitely have our

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faith and we follow, you know, what her and I feel that's important.

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And with, I mean, we do, you know, follow some of the things obviously of the Bible

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and, but I think it's definitely, I think there's too much of like shoving down your

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throat.

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This is what you have to believe.

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And if you don't, this is going to be the consequence.

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I think it needs to be a more individual setting and spiritual setting of where you just really

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have to have good thought process of what this all means to you.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think it's also, it's like you said, a hypocrisy.

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What I'm seeing from the outside looking in is, for example, we are a very faith based

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country supposedly, but then people will walk out of their churches or synagogues or temples

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and then be like, yeah, but I want these homeless people to move out of my jurisdiction and we're

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wasting, you know, Narcan on these addicts and, you know, look at these funds and these

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hookers on the streets.

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I'm like, if the, your prophet, whatever religion was, was out in these streets, I don't think

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they'd be so judgmental.

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And then to put it on other communities, I mean, how many gang bangers have got, you

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know, fricking all the religious icons all over them and then they're out murdering people.

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So I think the hypocrisy of man's interpretation of what I would argue, the tenants of these

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religions are actually good.

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That is the problem, not so much the original religions themselves.

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Yeah, agree.

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It's definitely, yeah, you talk about the homeless crisis or anything, you know, drug

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abusers.

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I have, you know, my older son has struggled with addiction.

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So that's been a new thing that I've had to open my eyes to.

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But I mean, if, yeah, if you've, anyone has read anything about the Bible, you know, Jesus

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was kicking it with, you know, the prostitutes and all that stuff.

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But I think we've lost sight in that where there's two, not that we don't all have personal

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responsibility to make sure, you know, we are taking care of our own lives and making

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steps to get better.

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I believe in that as well, but definitely having the empathy and the grace that we need

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to have to work together as human beings, human beings could be something we could all

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do a little bit better on.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think the other side, because I hear the ownership all the time.

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Well, if they just, you know, it's the thing that we hear in our profession, if you just

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get up at five o'clock and then go for a run and eat salads and have an ice bath, you can

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be as awesome as me.

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And it's like, well, you know, I grew up on a farm and talk about this a lot.

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So I grew up and it was, it was bred into me to be outside, to be cold, to be dirty,

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to be hungry sometimes, to get food from the garden, you know, to understand that that

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sheep that you loved is going to be on the dinner table, you know, a few weeks later.

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That's not fair for me then to look at someone who lives in the inner city and the bodega

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is their local place of nutrition and go, Oh, why don't you just get up and, you know,

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run five miles every day?

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So the environment that either creates addiction or opposes addiction is equally as important

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in the conversation as the ownership of the individual.

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100%.

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Yeah.

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And like I said, I learned that with my son, I didn't understand addiction a whole lot,

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you know, at times, you know, you think you can, you know, punish things out of people,

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but just taking a step back and understand all the environment and how much it all has

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to play is definitely something we could all, you know, we need to do more of.

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So when you were in the school age, were you already dreaming of law enforcement or was

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there something else in your mind?

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You know, yeah, obviously that's a common question.

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Everyone wants to know, you know, how did you get involved?

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So if you had asked my mom today, she would say, you know, I didn't have any police officers

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in my family.

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I remember, you know, interesting enough, a couple of police officers in the churches

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that we went to that were guys that I, I don't know, you just kind of looked up to them for

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say.

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And then when I was about, I think, yeah, I was already, already 18 or maybe just 17

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still.

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My mom and I lived in an apartment in this small town and I would see a police car pull

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into our building.

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And I find I quickly caught on.

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It was a guy coming home for dinner on a swing shift to have dinner at his house because

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he lived and worked in the area.

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And so one day we struck up a conversation and I was, he probably could tell that I was

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somewhat interested.

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And he said, why don't you do a ride along with me?

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And so I did.

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And I can distinctly remember that first ride along, like the hooks got into me and I was

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like, okay, this is what I want to do.

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Not that I, I mean, I had obviously no idea what exactly that meant.

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But most of it was just the attraction to the, the excitement of that night and like,

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okay, I think I can do this because I don't want to sit behind a desk.

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You know, I want to be out there, you know, and I wanted to chase bad guys quite frankly.

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And so, yeah, they definitely got the hooks into me.

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Now we're going to go on to talk about mental health as we progress through your story.

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One thing that really just rose to the surface after almost a thousand interviews now, when

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it came to mental health in the uniform professions was the massive element of early childhood

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experiences on our ability to be resilient.

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And I mean, I'm not saying you're not resilient if you had issues, but you look at it as a

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foundation.

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If you had early childhood experiences and you've processed them, whatever that looks

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like your foundation, I would argue would be pretty strong.

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That is resilience.

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If it's been buried down, like so many of us do, then arguably there's, there's cracks

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in the foundation before you ever even pin that badge onto your chest.

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So when you look back now with this mature lens, were there any elements of your early

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years that you contribute that contributed to later struggles?

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You know, James, I could, I could probably on both ends of the spectrum say, you know,

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it affected me in two things.

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Number one, I would say I was pretty resilient because, you know, I went through a bunch

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of difficult times with, you know, not having a dad around those types of things.

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But then on the other hand, we were real good as a family of stuffing everything down.

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We're just not going to talk about it.

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And this is what we do.

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And we put on a show for everybody else, you know, cause we don't want anyone to know that

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we're having problems.

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And so I can see now again, I tell people when I go around to speak, I have the luxury

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of really looking in that rear view mirror and analyzing, you know, what, how, what happened

230
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:52,640
during my career.

231
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,680
But I can look back now and see like, yeah, we did.

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I never learned that it was good to, you know, we need to address these things.

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It was just stuff it down, put on a good face and keep marching forward.

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And then, you know, what goes in our professions, like when you roll right into that same sort

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of culture that can just, I mean, it just makes the stack even heavier of, you know,

236
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just keep stuffing down.

237
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This is what I learned in childhood.

238
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This is what my profession's saying.

239
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This must be the way.

240
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And we obviously know that is not good to be doing.

241
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,840
What were some of the things you think from the early life were negative influences of

242
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,680
it, for example, more often than not, if it's a foster child or an adopted child or someone's

243
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:41,560
whose mother father both left them, that feeling of abandonment on its own can be, you know,

244
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,820
why wasn't I good enough?

245
00:15:42,820 --> 00:15:46,360
So what, what was some of the elements when you look back and analyze now,

246
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,440
Man, you're getting real deep on me now.

247
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:49,440
Yeah.

248
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:54,520
Cause I did just come back for the couple of weeks ago from a place through Boulder Crest

249
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,880
Foundation and it was a retreat where I was a participant.

250
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,720
I was not, I was not there at official capacity.

251
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:07,680
I was working on Travis and we dove deep into childhood stuff.

252
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And part of that was addressing that, you know, Travis is enough, no matter what, like

253
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,120
Travis, you're enough.

254
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,660
And it was, it was a, it was an experience.

255
00:16:20,660 --> 00:16:24,720
It was a good experience, but I tell you, even though, you know, I've been doing it

256
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,360
working and advocating for mental health now for a couple over a few years now that this

257
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,720
was an aspect that I had really not dove into as much as I should have.

258
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But I can see now how very important it was to just analyze that, understand how it affected

259
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:49,360
you and not even to be focusing on the negative, but be focusing on how did all these experiences

260
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:55,840
shape me today and who I am and understanding how that can be a source of strength instead

261
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,760
of just like, why me?

262
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,760
So very important.

263
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:00,760
Beautiful.

264
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,240
Well, I listened to you on the Cleared Heart podcast, the first one you did with Andy.

265
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,360
And I, so I heard you talk about your, your first day in law enforcement.

266
00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:12,320
So let's walk through that.

267
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,960
Talk to me about the decision to enter that profession, your academy experience, and let's

268
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,000
go to your first day.

269
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000
Absolutely.

270
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,000
Yeah.

271
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:28,000
So I started in 1996 and back when I was entering the profession, you know, nowadays is complete.

272
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,420
It's just so different to where you see departments hiring someone prior and then they, they sponsor

273
00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:34,520
you through the academy.

274
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So they're paying for your academy.

275
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Back when I was going through, that just wasn't the case.

276
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It wasn't happening a lot.

277
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:48,840
So the, the path was you go to community college and you were working towards an associate's

278
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,760
degree in criminal justice.

279
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:57,480
And then the last six months of that two year degree, you're actually in the police academy.

280
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,900
So now you enter into the police academy and you finish your final credits.

281
00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:08,400
So then a graduation of the academy, you are now you have, you're called certifiable in

282
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,380
the state of Michigan, meaning you're ready to be certified as police officer.

283
00:18:12,380 --> 00:18:14,460
And you have that associate's degree.

284
00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:19,160
And it was a, you know, I know there's some community colleges where the, you know, the

285
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,800
people, it's only a couple of days a week and it lasts a lot longer, but mine was a

286
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:23,880
40 plus hour a week.

287
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,360
We had to report every single morning.

288
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:29,800
We didn't stay overnight, you know, had it's, you know, PT in the morning, you know, bust

289
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,600
your ass to get showered up, get in your uniforms, inspections, and then you start all the training,

290
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,200
you know, whether it's classroom or practical exercises.

291
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,520
So that was, that was the beginning.

292
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,880
Again, I had no job lined up.

293
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:51,400
It was just going to be when you get out, you are looking for employment and they're

294
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,400
in Michigan.

295
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,720
There's a lot of little, you know, like that is in many states, but a lot of very small

296
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,800
police departments, township departments, village departments, and they would come to

297
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:07,160
the academy to recruit part-time officers just to get a job.

298
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,600
So then my licensing is locked in.

299
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,120
And so this department, one square mile town, like literally the whole town is one square

300
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:19,920
mile comes into our academy and they're recruiting and they offered me a part-time job.

301
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,440
I was going to make $6 an hour to start.

302
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,680
And I took the job just to get everything locked in.

303
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,360
And that, that was the beginning.

304
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:30,320
It was chasing the money.

305
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,320
Yeah.

306
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:32,320
Chasing the money.

307
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,560
I mean, you know, people ask him like back then I probably would have done it for free,

308
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:43,460
but you think about $6 an hour, that is just, it's something, obviously no benefits.

309
00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:48,400
And so I stayed there for a very short time and then got picked up by a larger sheriff's

310
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,840
department, but still very small compared to where I went to a rural sheriff's department

311
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,000
in Michigan, just between Lansing, Michigan and Grand Rapids.

312
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,000
And I worked for Ionia County Sheriff's Office and we had 15 people on the road.

313
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,760
I think when I left to Ladder-LaMesa.

314
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,560
So I worked there, worked my way through patrol.

315
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:16,720
I got involved with, this is where I got the itch for, I guess the SWAT world.

316
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,380
And we were actually myself and another officer or actually other sergeant, because I did

317
00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:28,960
promote the sergeant there, were tasked with standing up some sort of containment type

318
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,820
team that until the state police actual SWAT team could get there, we could lock down a

319
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:37,480
house if something was happening or something like that.

320
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,520
So that's where I got the itch.

321
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:46,700
But I will tell you, James, all through my career there, I always had the itch to go

322
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:48,160
work big city.

323
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,160
I, you know, as silly as this may sounds, I grew up watching cops on Saturday night.

324
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,360
In fact, I joke about my buddies and I, even if we were going on on Saturday night, I was

325
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,440
like, yep, we can't leave until cops is over.

326
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,360
And we would watch that.

327
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:05,200
So I had an itch for big city.

328
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:11,000
And so in 2007, finally, I said either I'm going to do it or I'm just pushing that dream

329
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,000
away.

330
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:18,360
And so I found Mesa Police Department in Arizona and decided to throw my hat in the ring.

331
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:24,080
And thankfully, they picked me up and I ended up moving with my first wife and two boys.

332
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,880
We moved across the country to go to Mesa, Arizona.

333
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,160
Have you watched cops recently?

334
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:39,480
In fact, the other day, my wife and I, because there's some old ones on and we were watching

335
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,120
just to have kind of some background noise on the TV, we were doing stuff and I've forgotten

336
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,640
how how it is.

337
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,240
But yes, I have watched some of them.

338
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,680
I haven't watched any brand new ones.

339
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,400
Because when I think back to it, you know, you'd have these car chases that would go

340
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,400
into foot pursuit and then they'd end up with a tiny bit of marijuana and they'd hook them

341
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,200
up and rough them up a little bit.

342
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:05,800
And then you look at it with a 2024 lens and you're like, oh, it wasn't a good idea back

343
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,800
then.

344
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,640
Oh, and I still I mean, it's funny because I have one of my sons, my youngest is he's

345
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,000
talked about going into law enforcement.

346
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,640
And we talked about cops and I said, have you ever watched that?

347
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,600
Don't be watching it for training because you do see a lot of things on there like I

348
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,640
don't even think that's legal what you guys are doing right now.

349
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,000
But cool, it's on video now.

350
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,000
I don't know.

351
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,280
So it's just funny to watch some of that stuff, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.

352
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,280
Absolutely.

353
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,600
Well, I'm learning from it.

354
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:34,600
Yeah, exactly.

355
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,600
Exactly.

356
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,720
Well, then talk to me about day one of the part time department and then talk to me as

357
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,640
well about the dynamic because this is one of the things baffling to me that the volunteer

358
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,360
fire service has a place in a very, very rural community.

359
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,080
You know, it's just it has to be.

360
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:59,000
But what I see, especially in the Northeast, is they rely on volunteers for suburban, you

361
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,640
know, densely populated areas.

362
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,800
So I think that volunteerism is being kind of abused on the fire side.

363
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,080
But you don't have volunteer police officers.

364
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,200
So there's either part time or career.

365
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,880
But I can imagine that there are still elements of that that are making it more dangerous

366
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,460
for those men and women as well.

367
00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:19,600
So what was your first day like?

368
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,960
When you look back now with a whole law enforcement career under your belt, what were some of

369
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,760
the pros and the cons of the way they worked you at that point?

370
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,880
Yeah.

371
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,560
So my first day on that job, I specifically remember it.

372
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,280
I had already went in and got some uniforms.

373
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,440
They literally like, hey, search through this box, find some stuff that fits.

374
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:40,440
OK.

375
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,480
And so I got that and I show up on the first night and the chief's there and then there's

376
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,480
a sergeant.

377
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,480
So they're full time people.

378
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,880
They have a chief, a sergeant and an officer.

379
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,520
The other guy else is part time.

380
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,280
And they tossed me the keys and they said, this is the keys to the brand new Chevy Caprice

381
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,320
car.

382
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,680
Don't wreck it.

383
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,920
And then they said, here's our phone numbers.

384
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,160
If something goes wrong tonight, call us.

385
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,160
And that was it.

386
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,920
And I was patrolling the first night with no training.

387
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,800
And I'll be when you're a young kid, you're like that and like, man, I don't think this

388
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:12,800
is appropriate.

389
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,840
But hey, I'm here for it.

390
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,080
Like I'm ready.

391
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,080
It's day one.

392
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,160
I got the badge on.

393
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,520
And it was I'm going to tell you, it is not good.

394
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,440
We should not be doing that.

395
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:33,240
However, it did cause me to quickly learn how to deal with people on my own, the responsibility,

396
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,240
all that stuff.

397
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,680
But not safe.

398
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,040
I would say that should never be done.

399
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,680
I don't even know if that still goes on.

400
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,200
It wouldn't surprise me if it does in some rural areas.

401
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,040
But then around there, it's just you're dealing with domestic violence and drunk driving all

402
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,040
the time.

403
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,880
That's like the two main things.

404
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,080
And it was funny because even I come in, I want to be a go getter.

405
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,600
And so I was arresting quite a few people for drunk driving.

406
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,840
And I remember I got a talk from the chief.

407
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,560
He called me and he said, hey, we need to talk before shift.

408
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,320
And I went and he said, you got to stop this.

409
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,800
And I'm like, what do you mean stop?

410
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,840
He's like, you're pissing off the town.

411
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,200
I'm like, okay, well, they're drunk.

412
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:22,120
And I quickly learned that was my first probably experience with politics of like, this is

413
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,520
small town and they don't want to be messed with.

414
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,800
And they think they're exempt to some of this stuff.

415
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,080
And obviously people who complained about me.

416
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,240
So it was a good, I mean, a good learning experience, for instance.

417
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,360
So yeah.

418
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,680
What is your philosophy on one officer to a car?

419
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,860
Because I've had a lot of people on here from, for example, you know, LA where they're riding

420
00:25:43,860 --> 00:25:45,400
to to a car.

421
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,960
And I'm talking from a firefighter's perspective.

422
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,760
So no law enforcement experience whatsoever.

423
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,160
But when I think about as a fighter, the force multiplier of two people, whether they're

424
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,400
holding a weapon, whether they're just going hands on is more than two, you know, it argue

425
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,280
is like three by the time you have double.

426
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,660
So safer for the person they're arresting safer for the officers.

427
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:08,640
What is your lens on that kind of whole conversation?

428
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,680
Yeah, so obviously in a perfect world, I would have two man cars all over the place.

429
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,520
Now I understand, obviously, in a place where I was working, like if you take that small

430
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,120
place, I was the only officer on.

431
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:20,660
So that's impossible.

432
00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:25,440
And then also even the sheriff's department that was in our area, or even where I went

433
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:31,540
to work at best on night shift, we'd maybe have three people until two in the morning.

434
00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:36,540
But then from two to seven, it's one person and like we're splitting the county in half.

435
00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:41,040
And then hopefully we get the state police now.

436
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,880
And we'll get there with my Mesa PD experience going to big city 900 person department 500,000

437
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,880
people.

438
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:57,720
In my opinion, every car should be two men because 99.9% of the calls were two man calls,

439
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,840
meaning they're sending a backup.

440
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,400
Now I have heard the argument from administrations to say, well, what happens then?

441
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:11,400
I don't know, let's say it's a homicide or a suicide and you guys have to stick around

442
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,400
there for a little bit.

443
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,200
You could definitely cut down to one officer and then the other one goes out and answer

444
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,200
calls.

445
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,240
But at the end of the day, like when we would measure out time and everything, it really

446
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,680
doesn't make a difference.

447
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:31,080
I think the reward far outweighs any like, oh, that call may take longer.

448
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,820
We lose two people to that call because you're right.

449
00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:39,360
So many of our calls, we were going hands on or heaven forbid a weapon is produced.

450
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:41,520
I want backup there right with me.

451
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,880
And that two man car is gigantic.

452
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:50,600
And we went through periods of like, whether there was violence in our city, maybe just

453
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:57,040
during the protest of everything that happened from 2015 on all this different stuff.

454
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,280
And they'd be like, okay, the threat is high.

455
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,580
We're going two men.

456
00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:04,440
And we'd say, yeah, we appreciate that, but why aren't we two men all the time?

457
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,880
It just makes sense.

458
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,040
And now when I ran my squads, though, there was definitely, I would put as many people

459
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,320
to man as I possibly could.

460
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,100
Like and say, if you guys want to go to man, I support it.

461
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:16,960
Let's do it.

462
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,080
Also understanding there's a lot of cops out there.

463
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,140
They don't like anybody else in their car and they want to be by themselves.

464
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:25,520
So that's just the nature of the beast.

465
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:26,520
Yeah.

466
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,640
Well, I think it's, you know, it's what's always been normal, you know?

467
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,040
So at some point you're going to have to push against the grain and change it.

468
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,700
You know, and there's fire departments that until recently ride two to an engine.

469
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:42,120
You can't get really anything safely done with two firefighters.

470
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,920
And there's an amazing documentary they did about probably 15 years ago now.

471
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,000
And this one guy who was thinking he was paid on call, so volunteer, but he drove an aerial,

472
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,280
a ladder truck to a fire where a woman and her child were hanging out of, I think it

473
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,560
was a third story building.

474
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,760
And because of the, the wires, he wasn't able to navigate the, get putting the main ladder

475
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,040
up and he didn't have the manpower to put up the kind of ground ladder that you would

476
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,040
need.

477
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,120
And so he's talking and you know, and then he says, you know, he has this woman screaming,

478
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,880
then he hears the stud and she's throwing her child from the window and the child dies

479
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,280
from the fall.

480
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,560
So when we have understaffing, when someone has said, Oh, we'll just keep doing what we

481
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,440
did a hundred years ago.

482
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,400
There's a certain point where you have to put your big boy pants on and say, look, times

483
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,400
have changed.

484
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,160
We can't keep doing this anymore.

485
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,440
It's actually worse for the people and it's worse for our offices of firefighters as well.

486
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,300
Yeah, no agree a hundred percent.

487
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:44,320
And I do, I mean, some of the stuff kind of goes into all the mental health stuff too,

488
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:50,440
as far as that's where I believe labor organizations and unions really need to be aggressively

489
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,320
pursuing these types of things and getting the community support by education.

490
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,720
Because most people don't understand even though they see our trucks or cars, right?

491
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,280
Roll by the engines, roll by, they don't understand what day to day operations look like.

492
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120
And we definitely, it's, it's incumbent upon us.

493
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,280
And I would hope leadership to educate them and understand this is why we need these things

494
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,800
and let us, you know, just explain things a little bit differently or better.

495
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,800
Absolutely.

496
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000
And I think the other thing as well is that, you know, a lot of times there's finger pointing

497
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,020
to the chiefs or admin or whatever term.

498
00:30:26,020 --> 00:30:29,240
And like you said, the unions, you know, there are some phenomenal unions out there, but

499
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,920
I've sadly seen a lot that are self-serving.

500
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,920
For sure.

501
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,360
They don't want fitness standards because they know they won't pass it.

502
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,680
You know, they don't want to change the work week because they want to suck up the overtime,

503
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,100
you know, because they're on days and they get paid, you know, even more when they go

504
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:43,100
on shift, you know?

505
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:50,160
So if you're in those positions and what you're doing is only really serving you, then either

506
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,480
you need to change or you need to step aside and let a servant leader be in your position.

507
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,480
100%.

508
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,480
Yeah.

509
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,040
When I talk about mental health and organizations or unions getting involved, I get it because

510
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,040
you know, you know how it is, James, you come to this profession and you start feeling out

511
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,340
the unions, it becomes bred into us like we just want to make sure we get paid more and

512
00:31:10,340 --> 00:31:11,640
our benefits are better.

513
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,960
Well, why wouldn't we start looking to taking care of our mental health better?

514
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,360
And in essence, like that's going to help you live longer.

515
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,420
It's going to, you won't need benefits as much.

516
00:31:22,420 --> 00:31:24,040
It's all a part of it.

517
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,040
But you're right.

518
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,840
There are a lot of people that are very self-serving and they just want that next bump in pay or

519
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:30,840
whoever.

520
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,400
So yeah, we need to look at all aspects of that from a union perspective.

521
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,400
100%.

522
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Well, I know that you had a pretty significant call in 2005.

523
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,360
Prior to that, before we get to that one, what was some of the other, you know, career

524
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,920
calls that you have, whether it was your part-time department or the county?

525
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:54,280
Well, first of all, I mean, you did, you know, I do want to say like people always wonder,

526
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,400
did you know, did in your academy, did they talked about mental health?

527
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,000
Was it part of your early career?

528
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,120
I can tell you absolutely nothing.

529
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,080
I definitely can remember very early on, like, this is just what we deal with.

530
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,360
This is who we are.

531
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,200
You know, even the words being used, we got to suck it up.

532
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,480
We got to keep pushing.

533
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,800
This is the, this is the path you have chosen and this is your profession.

534
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,240
So I had none of that.

535
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,960
And I can tell you, very interesting, that little teeny town.

536
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880
So we think like, oh, nothing ever happens there.

537
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,360
The first significant call and it was within two weeks of me starting there.

538
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,640
So we were part of a larger county, of course, and they were so understaffed.

539
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,160
A lot of times if it was something right around our village, they would say, hey, can you

540
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,400
go out and check on this call and go from there?

541
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,760
I specifically remember we got this call and I was assigned to it.

542
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,200
They said, hey, can you go check this?

543
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,040
It was a one car accident on a dirt road.

544
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,360
And that's all we got.

545
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:01,040
A lot of times when that happens, it seems to be, you know, a drunk driving thing is

546
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,040
involved.

547
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Like someone's intoxicated these one car accidents out in the middle of nowhere.

548
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,800
And so I went there and I remember rolling.

549
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,280
It was a dirt road coming around a curve and I could see, and this was, it was dark by

550
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,520
now, but I could see flames and I'm rolling up and I'm like, oh, this car is fully on

551
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,520
fire.

552
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,800
So I aggressively get out and like, Hey, what's going on?

553
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,000
I don't see anybody standing around.

554
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,920
And I approached to try to get as close as I can.

555
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:32,000
And all as I see is a figure in the driver's seat and they're just fully engulfed.

556
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,760
They're obviously already passed by now.

557
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,880
I will never forget the smell because I, I didn't know what it was at the time, but it

558
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,720
was burning flesh.

559
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,080
And that was probably my first experience of like, you know, the county deputy rolled

560
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,880
up and like, Oh, you know, you're making jokes about it.

561
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,720
And like, it just kind of gets brushed over and then that's the end of it.

562
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,360
And nobody ever talks about it again.

563
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,080
And if you had asked me, you know, a month after that, like, what do you think about

564
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,080
that?

565
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,760
Like, yes, you know, shitty call, or maybe I'd even blame them like real stupid ass,

566
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,680
whatever they're drunk or who knows what it was.

567
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,520
I can't remember that part of it, but you just make comments and you keep pushing through.

568
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,920
But I still to this day, because I try to stress importance, how the site smells, what

569
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,320
you touch step in all of it can last forever.

570
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:25,300
I still, when I throughout my career had smelled that I know exactly what it is.

571
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:27,480
And it takes me back to that call every single time.

572
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,400
I will never forget that day.

573
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,180
You know, it's not giving me, it's not one of those ones that keeps me up at night or

574
00:34:33,180 --> 00:34:34,180
anything like that.

575
00:34:34,180 --> 00:34:39,320
But it's one of those ones where that definitely put a print in my memory.

576
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,280
And as I again look in the rearview mirror now, holy shit, we should have been talking

577
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,900
about mental health way back then, you know.

578
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,120
So that was one significant and then man that probably throughout, you know, the early end

579
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,080
of my career, the suicides were something that I just, you know, I didn't talk about

580
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,080
suicide growing up, you didn't hear much about suicides.

581
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,800
And those significant ones of whether I knew the family because they lived in the area

582
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,560
where I worked and lived, you know, near me, you know, suicides that I knew people are

583
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,640
having to tell parents, yeah, their 18 year old son.

584
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:14,800
You know, he took his own life.

585
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:15,800
He's inside.

586
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:16,800
I'm sorry.

587
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,200
Hearing those just incredibly awful screams of a mom when you tell her that her son had

588
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,760
taken her own life.

589
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,000
Those are, you know, things that just weighed on me.

590
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:33,080
But I mean, James, anyone where I'm talking to, you got to understand where I am now is

591
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,560
vastly different than how I conducted my career because I bought into the culture of just

592
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:39,620
suck it up.

593
00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:40,900
It's what we do.

594
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:42,120
And we don't talk about this shit.

595
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,800
And if you need to talk about it, you're a weaker person.

596
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,240
So I bought into that.

597
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:51,120
And so I became very, very calloused.

598
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:57,360
And even though it was wrecking me inside, that's just how I proceeded throughout my

599
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,400
career.

600
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,760
I had a really interesting experience just over a year ago.

601
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,880
I went back to England and we're literally on the in the plane on the tarmac, getting

602
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,680
ready to taxi to the runway.

603
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,920
And the last passenger has just come on all of a sudden, I don't hear a thump.

604
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,200
I got my headphones on, but people start turning around in front of me.

605
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,760
So I pulled my headphones off and that last guy just basically face planted and went full

606
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,920
cardiac arrest in the plane.

607
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,380
So you see in the films, you know, I saw after this, like a two weeks later, I saw the person

608
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:32,280
that went down in front of a plane full of cardiologists coming back from a conference

609
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,240
and they brought him back to life.

610
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,200
And you know, it was a beautiful reunion.

611
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,740
But when I'm there, I'm the fucking black cloud every time.

612
00:36:38,740 --> 00:36:42,440
So not a single person was from the emergency background at all.

613
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,960
So I was trying to help.

614
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,320
There's a couple of people that had CPR classes that they were assisting, but trying to run

615
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,380
this code.

616
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:52,800
And then the London fire brigade gets on and they're helping me.

617
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,440
And then the poor, poor Virgin staff, they had to ask permission for every bag, the airway

618
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,440
bag, the defibrillator, every single one.

619
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,080
They had to go and ask, can I do this?

620
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,080
Can I do this?

621
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,080
So that took forever.

622
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,920
So I went and got some of the equipment in this tiny little, you know, aisle in a plane.

623
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,720
Then the paramedics show up.

624
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:16,400
I dragged the guy with one of the firefighters to the galley area.

625
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,160
I'm working the chest still while the medics is intubating now.

626
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,620
And then it got to the point where I realized, OK, I've got to change with someone, get fresh

627
00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:25,880
hands on the chest.

628
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,760
So I stepped away and said, hey, do you need me anymore?

629
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,760
And they're like, no, no, we'll come find you in a bit.

630
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,760
Thank you.

631
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,880
So I went and washed my hands and this is five years after leaving the fire service,

632
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,280
washed my hands and sat back at the seat.

633
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,560
And I was like, that's just so weird because at the end of the call, you know, you're cleaning

634
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,120
your gear, you're talking to your partner, maybe the nurse or the doctor tells you what

635
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,120
was going on.

636
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,840
But no, I just went and sat back down, got the blood off my hands.

637
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,440
And then like a day or two later, it bothered me.

638
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,080
And I was like, what is going on?

639
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,320
And then I actually did a video about this.

640
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,160
I'm like, oh, shit.

641
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,300
So this is how it's supposed to feel when someone dies.

642
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:07,920
And it was such an epiphany because this was 20 years after becoming a firefighter by that

643
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,920
point.

644
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,340
And I realized just how, like you said, how dulled, how callous we become.

645
00:38:13,340 --> 00:38:18,760
And I've always been in tune with my emotions, but that physical and mental reaction to a

646
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,280
death and that wasn't even a very grotesque death compared to many, many calls I've been

647
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,560
on.

648
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,160
That's what you're supposed to feel like.

649
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,320
And when you hold that next to how I used to be, which is clean your gear, restock

650
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,080
and go to the next one.

651
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,800
One of my calls, I had three deaths and three different people in one shift.

652
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:43,760
That compared to the plane, I was like, oh, that's how far we get from what the actual

653
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,200
physiological response is to one of these deaths.

654
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,200
Right.

655
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,200
No.

656
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Yeah.

657
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:57,400
I would say and where I've experienced, I haven't had to go into old work mode since

658
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,400
I've been off.

659
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:04,640
But I say when I see things happen in society or you hear a story or read a story, I think

660
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,400
I've gained and part of this is because I've done a lot of work on myself.

661
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:13,840
I've gained that empathy back to where, holy shit, Travis, like you have feelings again.

662
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:14,840
And you're right.

663
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,840
Because you do, you become so callous and it's survival mode.

664
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,520
You know, because we're not taught in the profession how to deal with all this.

665
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:24,680
It's the only thing you can do.

666
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,160
Like I'm just going to get this rough exterior and try to become numb to the bullshit I have

667
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,160
to see every day.

668
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,680
So yeah, I can relate to that, man.

669
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,120
Absolutely.

670
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:40,240
So you talked about that one call as you progress through 2005, you have an officer involved

671
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:41,240
shooting.

672
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,960
So talk to me about that actual event.

673
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,280
And then was there a ripple effect from that one?

674
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,280
Yeah, for sure.

675
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,240
You know, and in the meantime, between that, I had two deputies I worked with.

676
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:52,940
They were both shot in the line of duty.

677
00:39:52,940 --> 00:39:58,400
So I see as I look these things back, like very early on in my career, things are, you

678
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,660
know, they're starting to stack up, you know, and again, we have no outlet.

679
00:40:01,660 --> 00:40:02,660
We don't talk about it.

680
00:40:02,660 --> 00:40:08,220
But yeah, in 2005, I was going to a very simple, you know, we're going to pick up a kid on

681
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:10,000
a warrant arrest.

682
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,280
He had failed to appear for court after a drug driving charge.

683
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,120
And it's called a preliminary hearing in Michigan.

684
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,120
And he had not shown up.

685
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,880
So the county judge issues a warrant for his arrest.

686
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,760
And the deputy that I was working with that night, he actually even knew this kid.

687
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,440
And he said, Oh, yeah, we'll just go to this house.

688
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,120
It's going to be not a big deal.

689
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,540
We'll go, you know, get him hooked up and then taking him book him at the jail.

690
00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:40,260
And so when we got there, we're in full uniforms, you know, fully marked patrol cars.

691
00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:43,620
And the suspect that had the warrant, he comes to the door.

692
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:50,340
He was, you know, right away, I could tell he was not going to be incredibly cooperative.

693
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:57,640
And so my buddy is he's the face to face contact, really, it's called the contact officer with

694
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,580
the suspect and then I'm his cover officer.

695
00:40:59,580 --> 00:41:04,940
So I'm back kind of bladed off, watching surroundings there to support him.

696
00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:09,440
And I saw an individual come to a window looking out at us.

697
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,420
But he did not have what I would not a normal look.

698
00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:18,580
He just it was a very blank stare, no emotion, no smile, no nothing.

699
00:41:18,580 --> 00:41:23,940
And I even remember, you know, I was flicked my flashlight at him a little bit because

700
00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:25,520
he was such a blank stare.

701
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,460
Like is he seeing us but we're right under a light like just something was off.

702
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:35,180
And you know, a short time later, he abruptly moved from that window.

703
00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:39,640
And just a few seconds after that, about that time that door where this kid was not opening

704
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:45,780
all the way opened up and this individual was inside the house pointing a gun at us.

705
00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:51,020
And he failed to drop the weapon and I had to shoot him and he ultimately died from his

706
00:41:51,020 --> 00:41:52,020
wounds.

707
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:58,700
Again, you know, something that you prepare for but you or you think you do as far as

708
00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:03,220
like training, I'm good with my firearm, I know about tactics, all these things.

709
00:42:03,220 --> 00:42:09,460
But I can't even explain to you the feeling it is when you pull that trigger for the

710
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:13,900
first time and you're like, oh shit, here we go.

711
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:18,740
You know, remember him, the guy's name was Fred Blets, remembering him laying on the

712
00:42:18,740 --> 00:42:23,420
floor and he had a white t shirt on and watching his t shirt fill up with blood because we

713
00:42:23,420 --> 00:42:28,380
had multiple people in the house so we could not get in there right away to administer

714
00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:33,500
care for him, you know, which is what we're required to do and which we should do.

715
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:35,460
So a lot went on.

716
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:40,740
My department, they hadn't had a lot of shootings where the officers were pulling the triggers.

717
00:42:40,740 --> 00:42:44,300
Those two deputies had been shot but they never returned fire.

718
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:45,820
So it was a new thing for them.

719
00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:47,980
The state police come out and investigate.

720
00:42:47,980 --> 00:42:53,500
Our union comes out, the sheriff comes out, the sheriff, I remember, gave me a ride back

721
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:58,120
to the station and I don't think he knew what to do because him and I were, I would say

722
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:03,700
even friends even though he was my boss and just the conversation's weird.

723
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:07,580
And so, yeah, went through that part of it.

724
00:43:07,580 --> 00:43:09,860
I was cleared pretty quick criminally.

725
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:14,700
However, a civil lawsuit, we were sued by the family, including myself and the other

726
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:20,380
deputy and the department and the county and that lawsuit went on for five years after

727
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:24,540
that before they had, you know, finally settled with the family.

728
00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:30,180
The shitty part of it is, is that guy, I had actually met him a couple months ago, the

729
00:43:30,180 --> 00:43:36,020
guy that I shot and killed, he was, he would go work out at a gym in the neighboring town

730
00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:42,960
where I would go and he was known for being an advocate for Vietnam, still being, believing

731
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,180
there was prisoners of war in Vietnam.

732
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:48,200
And so he is advocating for their release.

733
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:55,680
And he suffered from severe PTSD to where he would take tons of Ambien to sleep.

734
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,620
He would, he was legally deaf and legally blind and that night he did not put his glasses

735
00:44:00,620 --> 00:44:02,900
on, did not have his hearing aids in.

736
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:08,460
So my assumption is, obviously I can't talk to him, he probably didn't even know who we

737
00:44:08,460 --> 00:44:09,460
were.

738
00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:14,420
He was under the influence of Ambien, which we all know that is nasty stuff now.

739
00:44:14,420 --> 00:44:17,400
And so that's the shitty part of it.

740
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,620
You know, back then I would probably like have the attitude of like, fuck that guy, he

741
00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:22,700
had it coming.

742
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:28,220
But now in the position that I'm in, I have this empathy, like it was a really shitty

743
00:44:28,220 --> 00:44:36,100
situation where two worlds collided and a very horrible event took place and he lost

744
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:37,260
his life because of it.

745
00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:40,300
So different perspective now.

746
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:45,620
I've had several Vietnam vets on the show, Major James Capers, Rich Rice, who was one

747
00:44:45,620 --> 00:44:47,780
of the original Delta guys.

748
00:44:47,780 --> 00:44:53,620
And I haven't had a single one yet say anything other than when they came home, it was, you

749
00:44:53,620 --> 00:44:59,020
know, they were vilified by the very people they were supposedly, you know, coming home

750
00:44:59,020 --> 00:45:02,940
to going over there to protect, you know, we were supposed to be doing good in Vietnam.

751
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:04,980
You know, that was at least what they were told.

752
00:45:04,980 --> 00:45:05,980
Yeah.

753
00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:10,260
Politicians selling our soldiers a certain story and then we discover it's not, but,

754
00:45:10,260 --> 00:45:12,340
you know, but a lot of these were constricted too.

755
00:45:12,340 --> 00:45:15,240
You know, they weren't even signing up.

756
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:18,820
And then they come back and they're spat on, they're called baby killers and Major Capers

757
00:45:18,820 --> 00:45:21,700
is wounded and the guy comes and pisses on him on the sidewalk.

758
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:24,200
I mean, just disgusting stories.

759
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:29,340
So you have that, that loss of tribe, that betrayal by the nation that you supposedly

760
00:45:29,340 --> 00:45:30,920
were fighting for.

761
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,740
And then you have obviously the PTSD element, what you did, you know, what you were ordered

762
00:45:34,740 --> 00:45:38,240
to do, did that, you know, jar with your ethics.

763
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:42,300
And then when you say Ambien, the number of people I've had from the sleep medicine world

764
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:45,000
that have told me that, you know, Ambien doesn't make you sleep.

765
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,520
It makes you unconscious.

766
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,680
So there is an element of sleep deprivation when you are taking Ambien.

767
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,220
So he probably had that psychosis as well.

768
00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:57,660
So it's so sad because if you reverse engineer that moment to the human being before he went

769
00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:02,540
to war and maybe address what happened to him when he was younger, that shooting would

770
00:46:02,540 --> 00:46:03,760
never have happened.

771
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:08,020
You know, and this is what, you know, it's just, it's never in the law enforcement conversation.

772
00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:10,180
They always look at you and like, why'd you shoot that guy?

773
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:12,400
And it's like, well, why do we have gangs?

774
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,880
Why is there so homelessness?

775
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,400
Why do we consume three quarters of the world's opioids?

776
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,680
Where are these conversations of how we're creating these crimes in the first place?

777
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,680
Yes.

778
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:23,680
No, agreed, man.

779
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,680
And I like they ended up settling with a family for $3 million.

780
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,000
Again, totally different perspective on Travis's part.

781
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,160
It doesn't even make me upset anymore.

782
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:40,400
I'm like, okay, they lost their father, you know, husband, brother, sister, whoever, or

783
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,580
brother, whoever he was to people.

784
00:46:42,580 --> 00:46:45,720
And so now I'm like, okay, it is, it's no skin off my back.

785
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:49,600
I know I had to make that choice, unfortunately, that day.

786
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,440
And but it sucks that a human life was taken.

787
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:54,440
So absolutely.

788
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,800
Well, speaking of taking lives, I heard you talk about the, uh, the two deputies that

789
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,880
were shot with, with Andy.

790
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:03,260
I think it's worth revisiting.

791
00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:05,340
So talk to me about that call.

792
00:47:05,340 --> 00:47:11,680
And then again, I can imagine the, the smack in the face of, of the danger of the job after

793
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,600
sitting in hospital with him.

794
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,600
Agreed.

795
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:20,760
So yeah, approximately two weeks after I had left that very small, uh, department to go

796
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:26,420
to the sheriff's department, I was working like a modified late swing.

797
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:30,920
So I think I had got off at four in the morning, but then we obviously had a night shift and

798
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,680
there was this guy in this local teeny little town.

799
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,320
And I would probably the best way to describe him was an anti-government person.

800
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,720
I don't think he had any formal ties with militia, but that type of person that just

801
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,120
hated government in general.

802
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:53,080
And uh, I had already known about him actually, because he had this house in town where he

803
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,340
had like a spiral staircase thing.

804
00:47:55,340 --> 00:48:01,160
It was framed in, but at each level, like as he goes up, he had gun ports pointed outside.

805
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,820
So they made me aware of him.

806
00:48:03,820 --> 00:48:07,520
Like this is not a guy or you just need to be conscious of him.

807
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:14,160
So he had actually had a dispute with a local village government and he was not abiding

808
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:15,160
by some rules.

809
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:21,380
And so they issued a, just a, a $500 civil citation.

810
00:48:21,380 --> 00:48:24,600
And most of the times he had, he had, this has happened before and he would pay him,

811
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,780
but for whatever reason he didn't pay this one.

812
00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:32,160
And so the time had come up and there was a warrant issued for his arrest.

813
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,560
So the two deputies that were going to, they knew about this warrant and they said, well,

814
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:37,880
we're going to go get him.

815
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:39,160
They made a good choice.

816
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,800
We're not going to go to the house because we don't want to go confront him on his own

817
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,760
property, but we know where he works.

818
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,680
We know how, what route he drives to work, what time he leaves for work.

819
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,980
We're going to make a traffic stop and arrest him on this warrant.

820
00:48:52,980 --> 00:48:56,080
And even these two, they had grown up in the area.

821
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:01,160
So they even knew this guy probably had multiple conversations over the course of the years,

822
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,220
all of that.

823
00:49:02,220 --> 00:49:06,140
So they, I'm not saying they were complacent by any means, but probably felt they would

824
00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:10,160
be the ones most well equipped to address him.

825
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,640
And maybe some of that prior relationship would break through and let everything be

826
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:15,680
peaceful.

827
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,800
So sure enough, he had left like they thought he would, was on a dirt road out in the middle

828
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,220
of corn fields in Michigan.

829
00:49:21,220 --> 00:49:25,280
And they tried to, they initiated a traffic stop, meaning they turned on their patrol

830
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,280
lights.

831
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,760
And he didn't stop.

832
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,120
He didn't, you know, he wasn't going a hundred miles an hour, but just kind of maintain a

833
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,840
very slow speed going down this dirt road.

834
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:40,060
He gets about a mile away and he abruptly stops this vehicle that he was in.

835
00:49:40,060 --> 00:49:46,280
And as he's exiting, grabs a rifle and comes out and just lights up both patrol cars.

836
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,000
The one patrol car that was in front, that deputy gets shot in the head, doesn't even

837
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,440
get out of a seatbelt.

838
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,480
And then the other patrol car that was offset, it was actually a lieutenant, he gets hit

839
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,120
in the shoulder and his shoulder just blown up.

840
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,520
He can't get out and return fire.

841
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,400
He can't even open the door.

842
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,460
And this suspect takes off.

843
00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:07,840
And so obviously big deal.

844
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,300
We thought the deputy that was, had been shot in the head was going to die.

845
00:50:11,300 --> 00:50:16,800
So you can imagine all the law enforcement just combining forces to try to find this

846
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,520
guy.

847
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,000
So ultimately a two week manhunt took place.

848
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,440
And at the time I was just in what was called, what it's called a field training program,

849
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,640
meaning I am riding around with a training officer trying to learn the job.

850
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:35,520
And that deputy actually happened to be best friends with the deputy that was shot in the

851
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:36,520
head.

852
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,440
So he was ultra focused on, we're just finding the suspect.

853
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:41,580
We're going to get him.

854
00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:42,980
And so they didn't know what to do with me.

855
00:50:42,980 --> 00:50:47,680
So they actually had me go up to the hospital and I was doing 12 on 12 off with the deputy

856
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,400
that had been shot in the head.

857
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,040
And yeah, as I share this with people, you can prepare as much as you want.

858
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,840
You can say, I know someone may want to kill me.

859
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,200
I obviously I'm wearing a vest.

860
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:00,200
I have a gun.

861
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,360
I'm trained for these situations.

862
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:08,480
But when you see the aftermath of what happens from one of those incidents, especially when

863
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:15,400
this deputy was put down and fighting for his life as a very new officer, it can punch

864
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,520
you in the face because it's pretty much a wake up call.

865
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,840
It was a wake up call for my family because they knew this department.

866
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,120
They're like, oh, nothing ever happens there.

867
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,120
It's peaceful.

868
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,200
You know, no big deal.

869
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,040
This is a great place to work.

870
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,520
And then this violence erupts.

871
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,120
So it was a you know, I'm in the room with Jeff is his name.

872
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,000
And you know, he's on life support.

873
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,400
Like I thought he was going to die.

874
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,600
Other agencies were sending officers to pay their respects, you know, say their goodbyes.

875
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,680
Well, ultimately, he ended up pulling through, never was fully able to come back to work

876
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,840
completely and he ultimately retired.

877
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,320
But it was a punch in the face.

878
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,400
And again, as I look back, it affected our department because everyone knows everyone

879
00:51:55,400 --> 00:52:00,680
in the town knows, but there's no talk of mental health services of like, hey, guys,

880
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,240
this is going to hit you pretty hard.

881
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,520
These are the things we suggest you do.

882
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,680
These are the professionals we're going to provide for you to help you get through this

883
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,600
day or these weeks.

884
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,360
Ultimately, that suspect was found in the northern woods of Michigan by the state police

885
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:18,280
SWAT team and a sniper ended up putting him down because he would not surrender.

886
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,840
So yeah, that was a it was a very big event in my career.

887
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,460
How did the two deputies do after the event?

888
00:52:27,460 --> 00:52:33,920
Because you have the acute trauma of the shooting itself, but then you are forcibly stolen from

889
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,240
your tribe, your profession, your calling.

890
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:42,880
And I think that's an under discussed element is when people get hurt or wounded, the mental

891
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,640
health side of that injury, especially if it takes you out of the profession.

892
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:47,960
Yeah, I can tell you.

893
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,800
So the deputy that was shot in the head, I would characterize him.

894
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,440
He was never the same.

895
00:52:54,440 --> 00:53:01,000
There's lots of anger involved, lots of because he obviously had a long road of recovery.

896
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,280
And sometimes our organizations are terrible when that is happening, that we stay walking

897
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,680
beside them throughout the whole process.

898
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,120
You know, and you can say all the bullshit you want of like, we have a mission to keep

899
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,120
going.

900
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:15,400
I understand that.

901
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:21,200
But this person is in this situation because they were a servant of their community.

902
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,240
And this is now what they're dealing with.

903
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:24,320
And so we shouldn't leave their side.

904
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:25,720
So he was never the same.

905
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:31,040
The lieutenant, I would say, man, he was a master at he tried to come back.

906
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,800
You know, they had to put I don't know if it was titanium, but they completely had to

907
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,320
redo his shoulder.

908
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:43,320
He fought just with just vigor of trying to come back and beat show us that he was OK.

909
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,840
But he was never OK, could never raise his shoulder or like his arm above like a 90.

910
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,900
And he just but but he was definitely one part in the culture.

911
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:54,800
He wouldn't tell us if he was struggling by any means.

912
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,560
But even other deputies in the department like that one guy that was best friend, I

913
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,220
don't think he was ever the same.

914
00:54:00,220 --> 00:54:05,760
Just to anger about him that I never saw come back to the person he was.

915
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,760
And quite honestly, some of those people, I don't even know if they realize how much

916
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,560
they change, you know, if they if they've taken that look in the mirror yet.

917
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,760
I think that's one of the things that comes up over and over again.

918
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,440
And I had this realization myself is, you know, some of the conversation is like, well,

919
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,440
check on your people, you know, make sure you're OK.

920
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,480
You're all in the same fucking meat grinder together.

921
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,300
So you you don't have a very good barometer if you're OK.

922
00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:33,320
So I would say try, but really go to your wife or your husband or your children and

923
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,480
say, how am I doing?

924
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:36,640
Do I seem more angry?

925
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:37,640
Do it?

926
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,280
And then they will tell you, especially if it's a friend you haven't seen for a while

927
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:44,960
or, you know, your your family, because I've had times where I've Skyped my mother is in

928
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,960
Portugal now and she said, you look like you're dying.

929
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:48,960
I'm OK.

930
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,720
Well, that's that's probably a red flag.

931
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,560
Then, you know what I mean?

932
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,440
So, you know, these are the voices that we need to ask.

933
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:00,760
And sometimes if it's your crew or, you know, your partner in the SWAT team or whatever

934
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,220
it is, you got to remember that you're going through the same shit together.

935
00:55:05,220 --> 00:55:09,520
So it's hard for you to see where the real baseline is.

936
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,400
Yeah, no, agree.

937
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:17,480
In my presentation, I show this picture and the slide title is Then and Now.

938
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:22,000
And the one picture is me, my very first day on the job in 1996.

939
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:28,160
The other one is one of my final operations as SWAT team leader and Mesa.

940
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:34,840
And I just do that to hopefully solicit an emotion out of them, because I said, I want

941
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,840
you to think about yourself.

942
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,100
First look in the mirror.

943
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:40,360
How do you think this job has changed you?

944
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,700
Are you more angry?

945
00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:43,560
Do you have less empathy?

946
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,920
Do you you know, we joke, we hate the human race, all these things.

947
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,440
And then I ask them after you've listened to me, I asked you to take this other step.

948
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:59,440
Go to your closest family member, allow them to be just brutally honest, meaning you're

949
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,440
not going to get mad, whatever they say, and just give them the opportunity to say, you

950
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,680
know, what do you see in me when you look at me since, you know, this I've started

951
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:08,680
this career.

952
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,720
Do you see these changes in me or there's anything that concerns you?

953
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:15,920
I want to know because you are a family are you know, they're the ones that are going

954
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:21,520
to notice the stuff the quickest, you know, the earliest because, you know, we're great

955
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,680
at putting on a mask when we're, you know, on the job.

956
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,120
You know, we just like you said, we're all on this, we put these masks on and just keep

957
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,120
going.

958
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,200
But our family members, you know, they see the little, I guess, chips of the armor coming

959
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,240
away as the years go on and on and on.

960
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:39,560
I've had that recently.

961
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:44,760
I'm writing my second book and revisiting a lot of calls, diving into some stuff that

962
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,280
happened in hidden history.

963
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,360
It's all tied into the story.

964
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,480
And so, you know, the historical stuff is horrible.

965
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,320
You know, the calls of I'm remembering again are horrible.

966
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,560
And then, you know, you've got got stresses of, you know, finances and, you know, trying

967
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,920
to get this book out in time.

968
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:02,760
And recently, I've become angry again.

969
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,320
It's not the book on its own.

970
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,760
It's probably all the stuff and actually reached out to a friend of mine who's a counselor

971
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,720
I've had on the show, psychologist, and she's recommended someone else I'm going to talk

972
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:13,720
to.

973
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:15,040
And it's not I'm not haunted by stuff.

974
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:21,720
It's not many of the classical things that do really, you know, just so detrimental to

975
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:22,720
people.

976
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,580
But it's just, again, that simmering anger, you know, for me, being from a profession

977
00:57:27,580 --> 00:57:33,740
where we see all the horrible shit, when someone drives like a fucking asshole, I want to drag

978
00:57:33,740 --> 00:57:37,480
them out of their car and fucking curb stomp them if I'm going to be completely honest,

979
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,000
because I know what happens when you drive like that.

980
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,120
You end up sitting on the curb crying like a little bitch.

981
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,060
And we have to cut a family of four out of a minivan and they're all fucking dead because

982
00:57:47,060 --> 00:57:48,060
of you.

983
00:57:48,060 --> 00:57:55,040
So it's it's understandable the the the reaction to it, but the intensity of the reaction,

984
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,080
you know, you're always going to be angry when someone's driving like an asshole.

985
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:05,280
But this, you know, deep kind of, you know, just fight or flight anger response, you know,

986
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,840
isn't an overreaction to that, even though it's justified.

987
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,000
No, agreed, man.

988
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,880
The harmful obviously, yeah, you can still be upset at that.

989
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:20,360
But if you let it get to that boiling point, and just understanding how the ramifications

990
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:26,360
for us personally, because I think the you just keep getting worse and worse, you know,

991
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,620
that's your go to thing of like, OK, I'm just an explode.

992
00:58:29,620 --> 00:58:31,600
And this is just the reaction.

993
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,840
I was there, so I understand what it was doing to me to where now, you know, much better

994
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,960
like, OK, I feel this coming about like, OK, why is this happening?

995
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:44,720
And like, maybe I just need to take a take a break like my wife, Emily.

996
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:45,720
She's amazing.

997
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,020
And I don't know, we were getting ready to travel for one of my events a few weeks ago.

998
00:58:50,020 --> 00:58:52,880
And I get to the airport and you know, airports can just be chaos.

999
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,600
You can see the best of humanity and the worst of humanity.

1000
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,680
And I just get in there and I don't even know why.

1001
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,480
But I just told her, I said, hey, I feel it.

1002
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,880
Like I just I don't have the patience today.

1003
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,360
And she's like, I got you.

1004
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,500
And so I let her deal with everyone.

1005
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:12,440
And I just, you know, I just was focusing on Travis like this in the healthy.

1006
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,640
Just keep, you know, keep yourself where you need to be.

1007
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:16,720
And but that's OK.

1008
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,920
You know, that's the one of the biggest hurdles is being able to recognize when that's about

1009
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,880
to happen and pull yourself back before it snaps.

1010
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:25,880
Absolutely.

1011
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,160
There's a beach called Crescent Beach near St. Augustine here.

1012
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,920
And I just went there with my son and my dog and we walked for two hours while I threw

1013
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:34,600
the ball and he's skim boarded.

1014
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,880
And by the time we got back, I was Ussah again for for for now.

1015
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:40,880
Awesome.

1016
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:41,880
Yeah.

1017
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:42,880
All right.

1018
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,640
Well, then you talked about, you know, one day driving in a big city police car while

1019
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,560
bad boys played on the radio.

1020
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,400
So talk to me about your transition to Mesa.

1021
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:53,400
That's funny.

1022
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:54,400
Yeah.

1023
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,040
You know, it was it was honestly it was a great transition.

1024
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:02,440
I I am so thankful for the time that I had at the smaller department because where we

1025
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:07,520
did everything from beginning of the you know, you take the call, you're doing fingerprints,

1026
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:13,480
you run the case all the way through to trial or whatever is going to happen versus then

1027
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:19,480
I go to big city PD and we had all these resources, whether it was, you know, civilian crime scene.

1028
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,540
I was turning out, you know, we turn over calls to detectives.

1029
01:00:22,540 --> 01:00:23,540
So it was good.

1030
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:28,680
It was a good transition period to where when I went there, you know, I had to go through

1031
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:34,640
when you lateral to a different state, I had to take two waiver exams to show that, you

1032
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,600
know, most of the training I had in Michigan, they they allowed that to just, you know,

1033
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:39,600
come right over to Arizona.

1034
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,560
But I had to take two exams just to make sure that I was good to go.

1035
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:43,960
And I did that.

1036
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:50,320
But then I have to go through an FTO process or a training process, just like, you know,

1037
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,480
a new officer would come out of the academy.

1038
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:57,960
And I had two great FTOs that they didn't try to change my style policing.

1039
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,800
They just said, hey, we just need to teach you like the Mesa way for paperwork, those

1040
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:06,140
types of things, because they understand that I had 11 years on the job.

1041
01:01:06,140 --> 01:01:12,340
So they were respectful of my experience, which that was I'm super grateful for that.

1042
01:01:12,340 --> 01:01:14,680
But yeah, I got through the FTO process pretty quick.

1043
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:23,440
And then I was I I intentionally went to the district that had the reputation to be the

1044
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:29,880
nasty where the heavy hitters go to police, because I did even though I didn't tell anybody

1045
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,120
this because I didn't want to be that guy.

1046
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,800
I knew my sights were set on trying to work for the SWAT team, but I didn't want to tell

1047
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,660
anybody that I just wanted to do my patrol job.

1048
01:01:39,660 --> 01:01:46,500
You know, I guess get earn the respect of people around me before I even say anything

1049
01:01:46,500 --> 01:01:47,500
like that.

1050
01:01:47,500 --> 01:01:50,440
And so I ultimately ended up working with a bunch of guys.

1051
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:55,520
Our team was part time, our part time SWAT team, meaning you had, you know, patrol and

1052
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,040
then you also did SWAT on the side.

1053
01:01:58,040 --> 01:01:59,240
At that time, that's what we did.

1054
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,480
So I ended up working on patrol with quite a few younger SWAT guys that I built relationships

1055
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:05,480
with.

1056
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,600
And ultimately, it grew into having a conversation of Travis, you should come test for the team

1057
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:10,600
team.

1058
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,840
So that was great.

1059
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:18,920
I love the humility that Mesa had saying that they value the experience that you brought

1060
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:19,920
over.

1061
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:25,000
Anaheim was like that California where I worked there, but other places I've seen, you know,

1062
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,360
their posters are the wall, you know, 10, 10 rules for the rookie.

1063
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,720
And one of them is like, no one cares what your previous department did.

1064
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:35,440
And I always remember looking at that guy and what a stupid thing to say.

1065
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,160
Yeah, like, you know, all the experiences and all the nuances of a different department.

1066
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:40,160
Don't get me wrong.

1067
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,320
Don't start telling everyone that they're wrong on your first day on probation.

1068
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,760
Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of value, whether it's within the uniform or whether

1069
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,760
you were a carpenter or a computer program, whatever, there's always value that you bring

1070
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:51,760
in.

1071
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,920
So yeah, don't flaunt it and belittle the way that another one does.

1072
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:59,760
But maybe how you used to do it would actually be better than the way we do it in our department.

1073
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,560
Yeah, no, that's a good point.

1074
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:02,840
Yeah, that that's sign.

1075
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:03,840
That's hilarious.

1076
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:10,480
If you especially nowadays where recruiting out of state laterals is just it's a big thing

1077
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,280
because so many departments are fighting for positions.

1078
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:18,560
Yeah, think about just the wealth of experience you can have from other organizations, someone

1079
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,940
from another organization bringing in things that maybe they did a little bit differently

1080
01:03:22,940 --> 01:03:25,800
that could benefit your current organization.

1081
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,280
So yeah, that that mentality.

1082
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,860
But honestly, James, it does not surprise me because there's departments out there.

1083
01:03:30,860 --> 01:03:33,600
They think they have the only way.

1084
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:39,280
Now they have invented the the perfect way to police and nobody else knows how to do

1085
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:44,240
it, which I say to them like, yeah, I want to laugh and like, let me come operate with

1086
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,620
you and see if your way is the best.

1087
01:03:46,620 --> 01:03:50,720
So yeah, I had a very gypsy career.

1088
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,920
I worked for four departments and it was basically chasing my now ex wife around the country

1089
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,440
while she pursued stardom.

1090
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:58,440
But no regrets.

1091
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:03,360
I mean, I really gave me, you know, a kind of 10,000 foot perspective of the fire service.

1092
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:08,560
But one thing I had no idea when I was first in was just how siloed every single department

1093
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:09,560
is.

1094
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:14,600
And then like you said, in bad situations of Orlando and Orange County, perfect example,

1095
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,320
sometimes they don't even talk to each other.

1096
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,200
You know, I've been I've been standing in front of a fire before trying to get dispatch

1097
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:23,000
to send me an engine and they're like, oh, that's that's not our jurisdiction.

1098
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,160
I don't care whose jurisdiction it is.

1099
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:26,800
I can see their fire station.

1100
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:30,240
Can you please tell that engine to come put this fire out before this mobile home goes

1101
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:31,240
up?

1102
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:36,880
So that's what's so crazy is we have unions that are supposed to put us all together.

1103
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,880
I haven't seen it personally.

1104
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:43,360
But then, as you said, there's there's so many departments that do certain things really

1105
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,720
well, but there's not that knowledge sharing.

1106
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,780
So it leaves everyone trying to know how do we start a peer support?

1107
01:04:48,780 --> 01:04:53,080
How do we start a fitness initiative rather than going to the people who've already got

1108
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:58,360
it figured out and coming together as an entire profession and saying, you know, South Metro

1109
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:03,080
has got a great fitness plan and this one's got a great peer support and this one is talking

1110
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:04,080
about school shootings.

1111
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,440
This is who you need to go to.

1112
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,960
But I think that requires humility.

1113
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:10,360
And I think that's what's missing in a lot of places.

1114
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,280
Agreed, man.

1115
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:17,280
I am fortunate because I had some a couple good, very mentor leaders in the SWAT world

1116
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:26,200
at Mesa that, you know, we were we strongly pursued the quiet professional mentality.

1117
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,880
And he would even I mean, I thought this was great.

1118
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,680
There was one guy specifically that just he was my number one mentor.

1119
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:37,000
Like you could be a guy in our department that ultimately our team went full time.

1120
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:43,360
Let's say you've been on Mesa SWAT five years full time running 250 to 300 operations a

1121
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:44,360
year.

1122
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,920
And he'll be like, yep, you're going to basic SWAT school over here at this state.

1123
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,000
And we'd be like, what?

1124
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,000
Basic SWAT school.

1125
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:52,640
Like I've been doing this for five years.

1126
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,600
He's like, I want you to go to this training because there's a couple reasons.

1127
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,680
Number one, maybe you'll go there and they will everything you will learn.

1128
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,720
You'll be like, OK, it's affirming what we're doing is still correct.

1129
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,680
And he said, you may go and experience like, holy shit, why would they do that?

1130
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,160
So again, affirming, maybe we're doing things right.

1131
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:16,640
And he would always say, if you can go and even spend 40 hours in training and come away

1132
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:22,480
with a five minute critical piece of information, he said to us, that's worth you going.

1133
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:27,560
And so I just I loved it because then it just always, I guess, it shaped my mind of like,

1134
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:33,860
I don't care if you've been on 30 seconds or 20 years, we may be able to learn from

1135
01:06:33,860 --> 01:06:37,800
one another and how much better we can be if we take that mentality.

1136
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,200
Absolutely.

1137
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:43,680
We talked about transitioning into SWAT and then we talked about the false multiplier

1138
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,560
of two offices.

1139
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:52,180
One thing that blows me away about our professions collectively is despite the fact that people

1140
01:06:52,180 --> 01:06:56,840
push three numbers on a telephone on their worst day they're ever going to have our same

1141
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,880
profession are more often than not will oppose fitness standards.

1142
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:01,960
And I never understand that.

1143
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,480
I mean, I tell it to the Special Forces community and that blows their mind.

1144
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:06,480
The ocean lifeguards.

1145
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,680
I mean, to me, it's like telling an ocean lifeguard that if you can doggy paddle, then

1146
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:11,680
you're good.

1147
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:12,680
Come on in.

1148
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:14,880
So what's been your perspective of that?

1149
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:19,800
Not only operationally, but as a deterrent, as a way of maybe stopping some of these hands

1150
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:21,680
on incidents even happening.

1151
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:26,520
Well, you're never going to get anywhere with me to say that we should ever change standards

1152
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:33,760
because I 100% from a standpoint, number one, fitness has always been a part of my career

1153
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:39,080
and not I wouldn't I would say until I got to Mesa SWAT, that was just my personal thing

1154
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:43,440
that I chose because I always looked at my career as I am preparing.

1155
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:47,360
Yeah, you can probably go 90% of the calls I got sent to.

1156
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,040
I could be a fat slob and probably figure it out.

1157
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:57,120
However, I'm training for that 1% that worst day in my career where someone wants to take

1158
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:58,120
my life.

1159
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:59,120
They want to fight.

1160
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:00,480
That's the day I'm training for.

1161
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,480
So that was always my perspective.

1162
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:04,360
And then getting to our team.

1163
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,940
I mean, we were very big.

1164
01:08:06,940 --> 01:08:10,080
You know, we obviously could work out on duty.

1165
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:11,240
We were very strict.

1166
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:17,120
I mean, our fitness standards, you know, even get looked at on the team, you had to go through

1167
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,140
a series of tests to get looked at.

1168
01:08:20,140 --> 01:08:25,200
But I was I'll tell you, James, I was very disappointed in our profession as a whole

1169
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:30,760
with the low end of standards or even if, you know, let's say the officer gets on and

1170
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:34,320
they had they had gone through the fitness standards, but they have left themselves go

1171
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:36,040
throughout their career.

1172
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:40,560
And then they were not at a place where Travis felt, you know, especially on the street like

1173
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,480
this, this is not appropriate.

1174
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:46,600
I specifically remember one and I got shut down so quick.

1175
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,580
There was an incident with one of my hard chargers when I had promoted and went back

1176
01:08:49,580 --> 01:08:54,240
to the street and he was in a fight with a pretty good dude.

1177
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,800
And there was an officer that was there to back them up.

1178
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,320
And in Arizona, we have all these brick walls everywhere.

1179
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:06,020
So you know, whether it's the neighborhood walls or four foot pony walls, whatever.

1180
01:09:06,020 --> 01:09:10,980
And this other officer could not climb over this four foot wall to get to the other side

1181
01:09:10,980 --> 01:09:13,240
to help my guy in this fight.

1182
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,080
And it was a good fight.

1183
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:20,860
And I, as you might imagine, Sergeant Gribble was not happy.

1184
01:09:20,860 --> 01:09:26,120
And so I went to command staff above me, my chain of command, and I talked to him about

1185
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:31,080
it and literally had a lieutenant tell me like, Travis, I completely understand where

1186
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:32,680
you're coming from.

1187
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,160
Human resources won't touch this.

1188
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:39,660
And I said, this is I haven't showed policy like fit for duty, like it is under our fit

1189
01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:40,660
for duty.

1190
01:09:40,660 --> 01:09:45,740
But we have to be able to do these things and in the in the, you know, testing for pre

1191
01:09:45,740 --> 01:09:49,000
academy, you have to climb an eight foot wall.

1192
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:53,420
So there's obviously a deterioration in your physical fitness.

1193
01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:58,040
This is a problem that thank God that that person didn't have a gun on them.

1194
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,180
And my officer is still with us.

1195
01:10:00,180 --> 01:10:02,480
And he fought the good fight.

1196
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:03,960
We ended up getting them.

1197
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,340
But that could have cost him his life.

1198
01:10:06,340 --> 01:10:07,940
And it got shut down so quick.

1199
01:10:07,940 --> 01:10:14,480
And right then I learned that was my probably my first and only where like I tried to fight

1200
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:15,480
it.

1201
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:16,760
And I'm like, OK, I see how this is.

1202
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:21,960
So but I had the good fortune of being, you know, most of my career in Mesa, I was a full

1203
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:23,320
time SWAT.

1204
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:29,760
And we I mean, we pushed each other so stupidly hard at times like you just this is how you

1205
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:34,960
lived your life and you better be ready for the day, you know, even with SWAT, you know,

1206
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,800
90 percent of the stuff we can slow and deliberate clear house.

1207
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,280
We're not going to have that problem.

1208
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:46,360
But the 10 hour 10 hour barricade and 110 degree heat or we have to fight with someone.

1209
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,680
Those are the days you are training for.

1210
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:50,920
That was Denver chief.

1211
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,680
I always forget his name is hugely respected.

1212
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,960
But he was talking at the Orlando Fire Conference.

1213
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,000
And I kind of this is a loaded question.

1214
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:06,600
Like you put questions to the audience and I said, what's the how many stories do you

1215
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,200
expect a firefighter to be able to climb in full gear?

1216
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:13,800
And he goes to the top of my tallest building in my city.

1217
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,160
And I was like in my mind, right, Mike drop, because this is the problem.

1218
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,940
Like you said, is that going to happen?

1219
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:20,940
Probably not.

1220
01:11:20,940 --> 01:11:22,480
But could it happen?

1221
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:23,480
Absolutely.

1222
01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:28,240
And the irony is in the fire service in Florida, at least our fire academy certification is

1223
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,440
labeled minimum standards.

1224
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:34,900
That's the shittest you should ever be in your entire career.

1225
01:11:34,900 --> 01:11:40,160
And so to turn around 10 years later and say, it's not fair that they're making me do fitness

1226
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:44,240
when you were told from the front door that you should be able to climb all this, you

1227
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:48,540
know, all these stairs with this hose and drag dummies and hit sleds.

1228
01:11:48,540 --> 01:11:52,500
This is what's so crazy is no one no one kind of pulls you in and the front door, it gave

1229
01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:56,280
you some knitting and then you play with a kitten for a while and then you rode in unicorn.

1230
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:59,640
Like you bust your fucking ass when you first became a firefighter.

1231
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,880
How dare you pretend that we're trying to take your jobs when someone says you should

1232
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:05,440
be held to a standard.

1233
01:12:05,440 --> 01:12:06,440
Right.

1234
01:12:06,440 --> 01:12:07,440
No, agreed.

1235
01:12:07,440 --> 01:12:13,360
And I always say from a personal standpoint, again, I don't know that I necessarily understand

1236
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,960
why I'm motivated by organizational what they're telling me to do.

1237
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,380
Like I said, fitness was always a big part of my life.

1238
01:12:19,380 --> 01:12:24,400
And I when I have these conversations, maybe one on one with people I say, maybe it's even

1239
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:29,760
about training firearms or training defensive tactics, whatever it is, or fitness.

1240
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:35,080
If you have a really bad call and you are expected like you've got to perform and you

1241
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,040
don't perform, how are you going to feel the next morning?

1242
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:43,200
For me, like if I was not able to handle that worst day scenario, or at least know that

1243
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:47,720
I'm trained as much as I possibly can be, I couldn't I wouldn't want to live with myself.

1244
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,200
I just would be too critical.

1245
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:55,000
So yeah, personally, I think anyone listen to this, if they're wondering, like, you know,

1246
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,560
I don't it's not like, Oh, I don't have time like bullshit.

1247
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,720
You got to find time and take care of yourself.

1248
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:09,640
You've chosen this profession, where on any given day, your fitness abilities may be called

1249
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:10,640
into play.

1250
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,080
And I would expect you to be able to perform.

1251
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:19,180
There's a phrase that goes around in the fire service, would you want you rescuing you?

1252
01:13:19,180 --> 01:13:22,000
And I don't like that personally, because that's about you.

1253
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,680
To me, I like to flip it around and say, how would you feel if your family died because

1254
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:28,480
the rescue hadn't trained?

1255
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:29,480
Absolutely.

1256
01:13:29,480 --> 01:13:36,280
And in the SWAT world, we say this, if your family was taken hostage, would you want what

1257
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,600
would you expect or would you want yourself going there to perform the hostage rescue?

1258
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:42,800
So that's how we would talk about our training.

1259
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,480
You know, so the same the same type of mentality for sure.

1260
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:47,480
Absolutely.

1261
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:53,400
Well, speaking of SWAT, before we get to 2016, as you progress through, were there any other

1262
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,680
you know, career calls and then in parallel to that, were there any kind of chinks in

1263
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,080
the armor when it came to your mental health then?

1264
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:07,360
Yeah, man, again, having the luxury look back, I definitely at this point in my career, even,

1265
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:13,640
you know, so laterally into Mesa in 2008, if I can look back, like I obviously already

1266
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:18,840
needed to be dealing with stuff because I just had so many calls stacking and and James,

1267
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:24,480
I'm not going to say like, you know, quadruple homicides, all that kind of stuff.

1268
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:28,600
I'm just saying the day to day cumulative effect of dealing with like you said, when

1269
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:34,440
they call 911, it is quite possibly the worst day of their entire life over and over again.

1270
01:14:34,440 --> 01:14:40,200
And then also trying to jump back in and out of normal civilian life and then going back

1271
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,720
into the chaos and how that all relates.

1272
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:48,040
And then, you know, with SWAT, probably the biggest thing, you know, I will say this,

1273
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:51,520
you know, we were always understaffed and we were just go, go, go.

1274
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:55,440
We were very high operational team, especially after we went full time.

1275
01:14:55,440 --> 01:14:57,680
And so it just became your mentality.

1276
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,480
And I bought into this culture of like, well, the team needs me, I have to be there.

1277
01:15:01,480 --> 01:15:06,440
And I put the team above everything, which is a it was a terrible mistake, something

1278
01:15:06,440 --> 01:15:08,080
that I regret.

1279
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:12,920
And just seeing the death and destruction, the things we were going on, just dealing

1280
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:18,440
with the worst of the worst people and watching it chip away at who Travis was, changing my

1281
01:15:18,440 --> 01:15:25,000
personality, jaded towards the human race, just, you know, not wanting any contact with

1282
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:28,880
anyone outside of my, you know, brothers on the team.

1283
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,960
And that's just how, yeah, so I see the chinks in the armor.

1284
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:36,320
That was that I didn't I didn't have my priorities straight, because I always bought into the

1285
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:40,280
mentality of like team first, the team needs you.

1286
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:43,480
I think that's one of the dangers in the mental health conversation in the first responder

1287
01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:47,440
world is, well, you know, I wasn't at 9 11, I wasn't the Vegas shooting.

1288
01:15:47,440 --> 01:15:50,100
So therefore, you know, I shouldn't be complaining.

1289
01:15:50,100 --> 01:15:52,680
But I love that phrase death by a thousand cuts.

1290
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:56,260
I think that's what 99% of first responders actually go through.

1291
01:15:56,260 --> 01:16:00,360
Some of us may have been at these big cute events like acute, not cute, like the pulse

1292
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,920
shooting, for example, locally here.

1293
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:09,520
But you know, for the rest of us, it's 10 2030 years of every third day for 24 hours,

1294
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:15,960
responding to either horrific shit or in between some awful calls, then go into someone's tummy

1295
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:22,040
ache or as I had once my dentures don't taste right, you know, those kind of calls and maintaining

1296
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,080
your composure when you've just cut a dead child out of a car two hours prior.

1297
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:30,340
So this is the thing, you know, is that when people say, you know, what's the worst thing

1298
01:16:30,340 --> 01:16:33,680
you've seen, I think most of us would be like, you got to be more specific than that.

1299
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:38,080
Like you want babies, you want gang bangers, you want people missing for three weeks and

1300
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,240
you finally find them like the library is vast.

1301
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:46,240
So this is the problem, I think, is, you know, we downplay because we weren't at that massive

1302
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:47,800
kind of news event.

1303
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:53,000
But most of the acute calls that we run are, you know, do take their toll, even if it's

1304
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:54,600
just a little bit of time.

1305
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:59,480
Yeah, the drip man of the career is what I like to call and I know organizations get

1306
01:16:59,480 --> 01:17:03,200
scared of the word cumulative because like, well, how do we address it?

1307
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:08,240
And I say, well, you address it be the very beginning of the career making mental health,

1308
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:13,240
you know, well-being a priority for the agency and everything that you do, quite frankly,

1309
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,240
and every decision making process, how are we then going to take care of our people as

1310
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:23,040
we move to this new strategic plan, whatever it is, or we're doing these things because

1311
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:27,580
yeah, you know, you talked about cleared hot with Andy stump.

1312
01:17:27,580 --> 01:17:31,200
He said something to me offline, which I had never even thought of, but he, you know, seal

1313
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,880
team six guys been in the worst of the worst.

1314
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,720
And he said, man, he said, you know, everyone thinks what we did was so, you know, just

1315
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,640
rough and all the shit we had to experience.

1316
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:44,820
He said, of course, we had some really rough days, had to make some really horrible choices

1317
01:17:44,820 --> 01:17:45,820
at times.

1318
01:17:45,820 --> 01:17:48,520
But he said, we're over there on deployment.

1319
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,600
We're away from normal life.

1320
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:54,360
And we're with our brothers and we go do a hit that maybe something doesn't turn out

1321
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:55,360
right.

1322
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:56,360
We come back.

1323
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:57,360
We're just with us.

1324
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:01,600
I do not understand how you guys jump in and out of chaos.

1325
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:06,240
Maybe have the worst call at four o'clock in the afternoon, but it's six o'clock.

1326
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:10,360
You're coaching your kids T ball game and everyone wonders why you're not normal, you

1327
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:12,580
know, or what they think is normal.

1328
01:18:12,580 --> 01:18:16,080
And it's I honestly just the more and more I look at it.

1329
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,760
Yeah, that little drip of, you know, going on and on.

1330
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,920
And I know I'm going to talk about my call from 2016.

1331
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:27,680
I constantly have to field questions about that and I'll get an email or a message on

1332
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:28,680
Instagram.

1333
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:31,680
Hey, man, I don't have that call.

1334
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:36,400
But and I'm like, hey, stop minimizing what you've been through.

1335
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,320
You know, I don't want you to think of it like that because we have underestimated the

1336
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:46,080
power of the problems that can happen, the chip away at who we are from 20 plus year

1337
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,760
career and what this can do to us.

1338
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:49,760
Yeah, absolutely.

1339
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,400
I think the other thing is the rest and recovery.

1340
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,660
And this is a dead horse that I flog like a crazy person.

1341
01:18:55,660 --> 01:18:59,520
But in the fire service, you know, most of the guys and girls are working 56 hours a

1342
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:00,520
week.

1343
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:01,520
You have this recruitment crisis.

1344
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,120
So now mandatory is a rife.

1345
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:04,880
So that's an 80 hour week.

1346
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:09,340
And so you have this death by a thousand cuts, but all of a sudden, you know, the cleaver

1347
01:19:09,340 --> 01:19:13,300
is getting bigger and bigger and bigger because they're not able to recover.

1348
01:19:13,300 --> 01:19:17,440
And when you actually invest in your people with the right staffing, with the right shift

1349
01:19:17,440 --> 01:19:22,560
patterns and time off, you can do some of these things, but then have the time to kind

1350
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:26,160
of process it and spend more time with your family and get to the beach.

1351
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:27,560
In my case, you know what I mean?

1352
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,360
So that when you get to your next shift, you've kind of come a lot closer to the baseline

1353
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:32,360
again.

1354
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:36,320
But I think what is a big missing conversation part of the conversation is that not only

1355
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:41,400
is the op tempo through the roof now, but you're asking these people to do more with

1356
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,360
less, more with less, more with less, and then turning around and going, I don't know

1357
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:48,720
why we have a suicide epidemic and then continue doing the same fucking thing.

1358
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:49,720
100%.

1359
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:54,740
I just did a podcast with these two ladies called Wives on Fire podcast and their husbands

1360
01:19:54,740 --> 01:19:56,520
are both firefighters.

1361
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:00,320
And as we were leading up, she was supposed to get me some stuff and she apologized, which

1362
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:04,080
she didn't have to, but she's like, yeah, my husband was on his days off and he just

1363
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:06,440
got mandatory at another 72.

1364
01:20:06,440 --> 01:20:07,440
And I'm like 72?

1365
01:20:07,440 --> 01:20:08,440
Like she's like, yeah.

1366
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:11,180
And that happens all the time.

1367
01:20:11,180 --> 01:20:15,440
And I'm thinking from the standpoint of how that throws not only the individual, meaning

1368
01:20:15,440 --> 01:20:18,880
the firefighter, like you were on your rest and recovery days.

1369
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:23,360
Now you're losing that and what it does to the family dynamics, all of it.

1370
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:26,320
So yeah, I mean, man.

1371
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:32,160
And again, like I understand recruitment and retention are a big topic right now.

1372
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:37,760
But if you have chosen to be sitting in the big boy chair being number one, you've chosen

1373
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:42,600
that, and you may have to rethink how we do things because if you can't provide enough

1374
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:49,180
people to where your current people are not being worked to death, then like you said,

1375
01:20:49,180 --> 01:20:53,780
maybe you should humbly give that chair up to someone that is ready to be innovative

1376
01:20:53,780 --> 01:20:56,560
and change how things we've always done it.

1377
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:57,560
Yeah.

1378
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:02,080
Well, I think what blows me away is I'm a firefighter that was a farm boy from England

1379
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:05,240
that never rose above the rank of firefighter and paramedic.

1380
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:06,240
And happily so.

1381
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:12,160
I'm not being the door kicker, but if I can figure it out with a podcast, just interviewing

1382
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:16,280
people like yourself, then where are all the people that actually have the pieces of paper

1383
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:18,320
and the bugles on their lapel?

1384
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:20,080
Why are they not figuring this out?

1385
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:24,220
And again, some people have, but why are you not asking those that have?

1386
01:21:24,220 --> 01:21:30,000
So changing the workweek to a 24 72, having actually hiring a competent, sorry, culturally

1387
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:34,200
competent clinician, putting standards back.

1388
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:36,460
That is how you reverse the recruitment crisis.

1389
01:21:36,460 --> 01:21:39,440
Because firstly, as you said, the people that work for you will want to keep working for

1390
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:40,440
you.

1391
01:21:40,440 --> 01:21:43,680
But then these young, very intelligent recruits with the whole world at their fingertips on

1392
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:48,120
the internet, when they research and see that you actually give a shit about your people

1393
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:52,840
and you're investing in the wellness rather than just working them into the ground and

1394
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:57,560
keeping the workweek the same as it has been for the last 60 years, they're going to go,

1395
01:21:57,560 --> 01:21:58,560
oh, you get it.

1396
01:21:58,560 --> 01:21:59,560
I do want to work for you.

1397
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:02,360
Oh, but we're going to have to pass this fitness standard.

1398
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:04,360
People good because I want to be a good firefighter.

1399
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:05,960
So that's a plus.

1400
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:10,960
That is how you get people lining up around the buildings again, testing for us versus

1401
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,380
this, oh, we'll just lower standards, 18 and a heartbeat.

1402
01:22:14,380 --> 01:22:19,080
Because the part of that conversation that people seem to be completely missing is that

1403
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:25,220
when we had to fight for jobs back in the day, they took the top 10 or 20% of that list.

1404
01:22:25,220 --> 01:22:28,120
Now they're taking everyone and begging them to come in.

1405
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:32,720
So you're getting the absolute rock stars along with the turds and those turds are going

1406
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:35,320
to be with you for 10, 20, 30 years.

1407
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:39,880
So unless we put that bar up, we're not only going to possibly lose the first responder

1408
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:45,400
community because no one want to do it anymore, but you're going to have more of those awful

1409
01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:50,180
Uvalde incidents or that horrendous one of that woman that was just shot the other day.

1410
01:22:50,180 --> 01:22:53,740
These mistakes that are going to cost these cities and counties millions and millions

1411
01:22:53,740 --> 01:22:58,800
and dollars, but more importantly are going to cost the lives of our children or our men

1412
01:22:58,800 --> 01:22:59,800
and women.

1413
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:00,800
Agreed.

1414
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:01,800
100%.

1415
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:06,720
I mean, yeah, I mean, not that the police schedule is as nasty as what the firefighter

1416
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,880
can be, but I remember at Mesa and they still do the same schedule.

1417
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:13,920
They're on four tens, but it takes a lot of years before you ever get a weekend off if

1418
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:15,300
you were on patrol.

1419
01:23:15,300 --> 01:23:19,720
So I had like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday off and I would talk to my supervisors like,

1420
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:24,480
have you guys ever thought about doing something where you would get a weekend off every once

1421
01:23:24,480 --> 01:23:25,480
in a while?

1422
01:23:25,480 --> 01:23:31,460
And literally the calls from up top would be like, well, I had to work that schedule.

1423
01:23:31,460 --> 01:23:32,880
So so should you.

1424
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,960
Well, that's a fucking asinine way to look at it.

1425
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:36,960
Are you kidding me?

1426
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:42,200
Because I would see a lot of my younger officers, especially with young kids, once I became

1427
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:47,360
a patrol sergeant, their wife's working maybe and then the weekend comes, they would like

1428
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:53,040
some, you know, maybe some support, you know, everyone, the rest of the normal civilization,

1429
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:57,160
they're off on the weekends, like it could be beneficial to all of us, but they just

1430
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:00,360
wouldn't that mentality of like, well, this is how we've always done it and I did it.

1431
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:01,520
So so can you.

1432
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:03,520
So yeah, just stupid.

1433
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:07,920
I've always said one day someone turned around and said, you know what, we probably shouldn't

1434
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:11,360
be putting children up chimneys and working in factories.

1435
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:12,800
This is no different.

1436
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:13,800
You are right.

1437
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:15,600
Yeah, that's a good example.

1438
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:16,600
Yeah.

1439
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:17,600
All right.

1440
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,380
Well, then you touched on 2016.

1441
01:24:19,380 --> 01:24:23,960
So walk me through up to that day and then I'll give you all the time in the world to

1442
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,200
kind of unpack that horror.

1443
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:27,200
Right on.

1444
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:33,440
So yeah, so I had been with a team up to the point of 2016 for I guess I was at the six

1445
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:34,720
year mark.

1446
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:40,520
And so I was an operator and then I also had been asked by the team to be an assistant

1447
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:41,600
team leader.

1448
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:47,740
So I was in somewhat of a leadership position, but then 2015 was here and we had a couple

1449
01:24:47,740 --> 01:24:51,400
team leaders that one of them I think was ready to promote.

1450
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:55,140
He wanted to become a lieutenant and then another one was just going to retire.

1451
01:24:55,140 --> 01:24:58,880
So they came to the team and they said, hey, we would like some guys to test for sergeant.

1452
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:04,000
It's always a big ass to come off that unit because if we go test for sergeant, we got

1453
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:08,420
to go back for the street for at least a year and then there's no guarantee we'll get back

1454
01:25:08,420 --> 01:25:10,180
to the team as a team leader.

1455
01:25:10,180 --> 01:25:15,280
It's just, but they want to have the ability to have prior SWAT guys come back as team

1456
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:16,280
leaders.

1457
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:20,620
Well, I was one of the ones that volunteered because I did want to promote back to sergeant

1458
01:25:20,620 --> 01:25:23,120
again and I'd done that in Michigan.

1459
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:28,700
So I volunteered and I tested pretty well and I was getting brought out for the training

1460
01:25:28,700 --> 01:25:32,800
program for a sergeant at Mesa in the first group.

1461
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:34,320
They took three of us.

1462
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:40,600
So it was my very first day on the job as a training sergeant or as a sergeant in training,

1463
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:41,840
I should say.

1464
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:47,200
And first day, first call, I had already done briefing with a shift and there was nothing

1465
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:48,980
really going on for a sergeant to handle.

1466
01:25:48,980 --> 01:25:54,280
So patrol broke from briefing and they were out handling calls and I was down in the office

1467
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:58,440
with the guy training me and we were just going over administrative stuff that, you

1468
01:25:58,440 --> 01:26:02,900
know, whatever, a proven time off or proven reports, that kind of stuff.

1469
01:26:02,900 --> 01:26:08,160
And so I heard a call kick out that this individual had went to an apartment.

1470
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:13,480
He had met another guy online for like an online dating or sex type thing.

1471
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:14,880
I don't know if it's Craigslist or whatever.

1472
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:16,360
I don't really know.

1473
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,000
And he had went to this apartment to engage in their activity.

1474
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:24,280
And when they were done, the guy that lived at the apartment said, Hey, I also have a

1475
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:29,280
little girl if you're interested in her, meaning to have sex with her.

1476
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:30,880
This guy was like, I'm not into that.

1477
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:34,040
And he, you know, left the apartment.

1478
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:39,080
He thankfully had some sort of a conscious and he called 911, but he would not give his

1479
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:41,640
name or his location at first.

1480
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:46,420
And quite honestly in the big city, we get crazy, stupid calls all the time.

1481
01:26:46,420 --> 01:26:48,240
So I was like listening in one ear.

1482
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:51,760
I haven't even answered up as a supervisor, just hearing how this thing brewed a little

1483
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,680
bit and patrols getting assigned.

1484
01:26:54,680 --> 01:27:01,680
Well then lo and behold, this other officer makes contact with an individual in a, this

1485
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:05,720
was a not a good area of Mesa in a park.

1486
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:10,560
He just saw this guy pacing part of our local drug scene probably.

1487
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:11,560
And he was on the phone.

1488
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:15,520
He could tell he had his hand up like he's holding the phone to his ear.

1489
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:17,560
And he went to make contact with this individual.

1490
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:22,360
And when he did, there was bleed over on the radio, him checking out on the call and the

1491
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:27,000
call taker said, Hey, you're out with a caller from this such and such a call with this little

1492
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:28,000
girl.

1493
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,040
And when I heard that, I'm like, Oh, okay.

1494
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:31,840
Now this is going to be legit.

1495
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:34,880
So I answered up as a Sergeant to go run the scene.

1496
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:39,240
More, this officer was getting more and more information from this guy who had been in

1497
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:40,240
the apartment.

1498
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:41,800
He hadn't seen anybody.

1499
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,240
He just said this was the offer on the table.

1500
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:46,320
Didn't hear anybody, anything like that.

1501
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:53,460
So we went to the scene and ultimately come up with a plan, some people on scene didn't

1502
01:27:53,460 --> 01:27:58,960
think that we necessarily even had a reason to go knock on the door because there was

1503
01:27:58,960 --> 01:27:59,960
no proof or anything.

1504
01:27:59,960 --> 01:28:06,040
I was arguing, yes, we do because it's accident circumstances under the law that I can, we

1505
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:10,540
have enough information at this point that there could possibly be somebody inside that

1506
01:28:10,540 --> 01:28:12,540
apartment in harm's way.

1507
01:28:12,540 --> 01:28:17,240
We have an obligation to go and check without needing a search warrant.

1508
01:28:17,240 --> 01:28:21,440
So finally, the lieutenant that was on scene, he just said, Hey, Travis, you're the SWAT

1509
01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:22,440
guy.

1510
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:23,440
Fine.

1511
01:28:23,440 --> 01:28:26,640
You go take a couple of people, figure out, go up to this door, do what you want to do.

1512
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:30,760
And so I came, you know, grabbed the patrol people and I just said, Hey, we're going to

1513
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:31,760
go knock on this door.

1514
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:35,880
You know, I'll be third back from you guys will be kind of cross covering on the doors

1515
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:37,000
they knock.

1516
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:38,000
Let's see what happens.

1517
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:39,320
I said, I will make all decisions.

1518
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:42,440
If that door opens, I'll tell you what to do, go from there.

1519
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:46,400
And so they knocked on the door and almost immediately the door opened and there was

1520
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:48,440
a male individual he had makeup on.

1521
01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:52,120
He was dressed in like a pink ballerina like outfit.

1522
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:56,680
And that was exactly how this person had described that person had been the apartment.

1523
01:28:56,680 --> 01:28:58,340
So for me, that was enough.

1524
01:28:58,340 --> 01:29:00,040
And I said, Hey, grab him and detain him.

1525
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,840
And so they did so the guy didn't really even say anything, just kind of looked at

1526
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,280
us blank, didn't fight anything like that.

1527
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:11,240
So getting handcuffed, you know, detained for the moment and put him off to the back

1528
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:15,960
of us to another officer so they could take custody of him.

1529
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:17,520
And we did announcements from the door.

1530
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:19,680
I said, Hey, just announce our presence.

1531
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:24,480
And specifically as Mesa police department, you know, you go through a series of statements

1532
01:29:24,480 --> 01:29:28,160
like, Hey, if anyone's in harm's way, please shout out to us.

1533
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:29,480
You know, is there anybody in there?

1534
01:29:29,480 --> 01:29:31,080
And we heard nothing.

1535
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:33,160
So I said, Hey, I still, we got enough.

1536
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:37,640
We're going to search this apartment just looking for a body if there's anybody in

1537
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:38,640
harm's way.

1538
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:41,440
We're obviously not going on there looking for drugs or anything like that.

1539
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:44,320
We're just here for exigent circumstances.

1540
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:49,400
So we pushed in and almost immediately to the right, I could see there was a closed

1541
01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:50,400
door.

1542
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:53,520
So I told the two guys in front of me, I said, Hey, I'll cover you on the door.

1543
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:57,640
Meaning I put myself between them and this door.

1544
01:29:57,640 --> 01:29:58,640
It was closed.

1545
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:04,400
So my gun is obviously out and you guys finished covering the apartment or searching the apartment

1546
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:05,520
and I'll cover you on this.

1547
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:08,960
We'll deal with this closed door when you're all done with the rest of the apartment.

1548
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:12,320
And it was your normal shitty inner city apartment as far as the drug scene.

1549
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:16,320
You know, you tell lots of stuff, not a great place.

1550
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,560
They come back, they say, Hey boss, we don't have anything.

1551
01:30:18,560 --> 01:30:19,560
We haven't found anybody.

1552
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:20,560
We've looked everywhere.

1553
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:23,540
There could be a body and we don't see anything.

1554
01:30:23,540 --> 01:30:26,160
So I said, okay, I've got this door.

1555
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:27,240
It's a small closet door.

1556
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:28,360
You guys step off the side.

1557
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,240
I'll open it on my own.

1558
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:35,000
I did so obviously my pistols out and it's, it's more of a storage closet.

1559
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:36,320
It's not really a coat closet.

1560
01:30:36,320 --> 01:30:37,320
There's nothing hanging there.

1561
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:42,560
A bunch of shit like knee high piled in and I scan it one time.

1562
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:46,680
I don't see anything that I really, um, it stands out to me.

1563
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:52,880
I slowly scan again and I, for some reason, a black trash bag, just a few feet into the

1564
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:55,320
closet stands out to me.

1565
01:30:55,320 --> 01:31:01,280
So I go ahead and I holster my gun and I reached down to grab the bag and simultaneously as

1566
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:07,000
I'm grabbing the bag and it's kind of falling, a little girl's head comes out of the bag.

1567
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:11,720
And uh, she's, you know, um, not much older than a toddler.

1568
01:31:11,720 --> 01:31:16,120
Um, I won't give exact age, but, um, she's shaved head.

1569
01:31:16,120 --> 01:31:20,560
She is conscious because I see her eyes blinking and, um, but she's not crying.

1570
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:24,220
She's not, I mean, you know how, if you see emotions, like someone's smiling, you would

1571
01:31:24,220 --> 01:31:25,480
see things on their face.

1572
01:31:25,480 --> 01:31:29,280
There's nothing she's got gray duct tape across her mouth.

1573
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:30,800
I'm overwhelmed by the smell.

1574
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:34,000
I later come find out she's sitting her own feces and urine.

1575
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,600
And as I'm pulling her up out of the bag, her hands are bound with gray duct tape and

1576
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:39,540
sore ankles.

1577
01:31:39,540 --> 01:31:46,680
So obviously first concern is, is, uh, I'd already had Mesa fire and medical on standby.

1578
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,280
I'm getting on the radio, calling them in, come in.

1579
01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:52,000
Now we're cutting the tape off.

1580
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:55,680
Even when the tapes off her mouth and all that stuff, there is no reaction.

1581
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:57,520
She is just ice cold.

1582
01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:01,200
Um, not auditory, you know, we're trying to talk to her.

1583
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:05,160
Um, so just, um, incredibly horrific.

1584
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:09,680
Um, the worst thing that I've ever found by far.

1585
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,920
And at this point in my career, I would have told you there's pretty much not much or not

1586
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:20,200
much I had not seen from homicides to suicides to child sex cases, whatever.

1587
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:27,000
But this was the first time I actually was touching, feeling, seeing the true victim

1588
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:30,640
in my hands that what, and I knew what had happened.

1589
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:32,120
I know what this is.

1590
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:37,040
Um, my team up to that point, we always covered our internet crimes against children unit

1591
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:38,800
when they would set up these things.

1592
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:44,480
Um, and you know, in a week we had arrest 14, 15 people come in there to try to, you

1593
01:32:44,480 --> 01:32:46,360
know, have sex with underage girls.

1594
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:51,360
So I know this is part of our world, um, but just complete shock.

1595
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,280
Like no one was really saying anything when the fire guys came in.

1596
01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:57,720
I remember, and these are dudes I knew from, cause they worked, I always worked in the

1597
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:01,000
busy areas and they, when they saw and they just looked at me.

1598
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:05,040
Cause I think they had a little bit of information as they came up with a gurney up the stairs.

1599
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:09,360
Um, but they just looked at me just kind of like in disbelief, almost like what the fuck

1600
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:10,360
is this?

1601
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:11,360
Like, where did you bring us into?

1602
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:14,640
Um, but I just saw the, just emotion.

1603
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:17,600
Um, my heart felt like it was going to come out of my chest.

1604
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:23,080
I was hot, um, emotional, not even knowing what's going on.

1605
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:26,320
And I've been again, to this point, I've been on hostage rescues.

1606
01:33:26,320 --> 01:33:31,800
I've been shot at and never had these feelings before of what I was experiencing at that

1607
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:32,800
time.

1608
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:36,680
So you want me to keep going?

1609
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:38,000
Yeah, please.

1610
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:39,000
Yeah.

1611
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:44,480
So from that standpoint, um, they actually, the training sergeant, um, again, no dig

1612
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:45,480
on him.

1613
01:33:45,480 --> 01:33:46,880
He was having a really difficult time.

1614
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:49,880
He even asked me, do you want me to call somebody else to help you?

1615
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:53,340
And I said, Nope, I'm going to take this meaning I'm going to run the scene.

1616
01:33:53,340 --> 01:33:56,680
So we had to go through, um, big city.

1617
01:33:56,680 --> 01:33:58,200
Again, we have all these resources.

1618
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:02,080
We've got the child sex detectives coming out.

1619
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:08,640
Um, just, you can imagine the massive response to something like this as the radio comments

1620
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:10,160
start getting throughout the city.

1621
01:34:10,160 --> 01:34:12,360
We have a patrol commander show up.

1622
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:16,340
It's just massive resources to this one area.

1623
01:34:16,340 --> 01:34:19,360
My initial reaction, I'll be quite honest with you, James.

1624
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:23,600
And I had been in, you know, again, I've been shot at, I've had been in fights.

1625
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:27,040
I had never had the feeling before, but when I walked out of that apartment, this dude

1626
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:30,560
was sat outside on this little balcony area.

1627
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:34,760
I wanted to pull my gun out and shove it in his mouth and pull the trigger.

1628
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:38,680
Um, because I was just, again, I knew what had happened.

1629
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:43,120
Um, I know what was happening in that apartment and I was disgusted.

1630
01:34:43,120 --> 01:34:47,600
Um, I will tell everyone this because I always do this in my presentations right now, because

1631
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:50,280
that's a really rough thing to hear.

1632
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:56,200
Um, her name has been changed, this little girl's, and she is safe and loved right now.

1633
01:34:56,200 --> 01:35:00,320
She, the foster care family, she had to go to the Phoenix Children's Hospital for quite

1634
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:01,320
some time.

1635
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:05,280
She had a lot of injuries from just months of abuse.

1636
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:10,140
And um, but the first foster care family that took her in, they ended up adopting her.

1637
01:35:10,140 --> 01:35:14,800
And I actually just recently, oh man, it's been about six months now, seven months.

1638
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:20,600
Um, I was connected with a 501 C3 that has actually worked with this family and taking

1639
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:24,860
care of her ever since this happened, meaning providing care and all this.

1640
01:35:24,860 --> 01:35:29,840
And I was able to see a picture of her with just a beautiful little girl now.

1641
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:35,540
And it's, I'm hopeful that someday I'm actually going to not even necessarily have a conversation

1642
01:35:35,540 --> 01:35:37,520
with her, but be in the same room with her.

1643
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:42,200
Like she's not going to know who I am, but just to have that, like just see her because

1644
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:54,120
everything I do, everything, sorry, no, I'm not saying sorry.

1645
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,320
I'm not apologizing for crying.

1646
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:58,240
Um, absolutely.

1647
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:12,600
Everything that I do now for our first responders is because of her, because of that day.

1648
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:18,080
So when we talk about post-traumatic growth and what can happen, like this is what happens.

1649
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:24,660
And so, and her, I do know that her foster care family, now her family, they have been

1650
01:36:24,660 --> 01:36:27,960
made aware of what we're doing in her honor.

1651
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:30,080
And so they're very appreciative.

1652
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:33,380
And like I said, we're trying to work on what this even looks like.

1653
01:36:33,380 --> 01:36:36,880
So I believe it'll happen sometime in the future.

1654
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:40,160
Well anyway, so a big thing we need to talk about, cause we're talking about the mental

1655
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,280
health is what was my agency's response?

1656
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:45,080
Um, it was absolutely shit.

1657
01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:49,880
Um, and that just be an honest, uh, because we have to talk about those rough things about

1658
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:53,840
what we, you know, what we need to do differently.

1659
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:57,800
The only thing they did for us as an organization or everyone that was on that call is they

1660
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:05,960
had the famous, um, mandatory, uh, big debrief where everyone that has touched this case

1661
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:07,320
is going to come in.

1662
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:10,120
And it actually, I think it was someone from the fire department.

1663
01:37:10,120 --> 01:37:11,640
They ran it.

1664
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:14,120
Um, and those situations are very good.

1665
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,520
I would have done debriefs a little bit different cause I, I've went through some different

1666
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:22,200
training now of how I think it should all work, but bringing us all together, um, at

1667
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:26,040
that standpoint, and then, you know, go through these talks and then, you know, does anyone

1668
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:27,640
want to share?

1669
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:32,580
And everyone there's like crickets, like no one's talking, um, because there's just,

1670
01:37:32,580 --> 01:37:33,880
that goes to feed into the culture.

1671
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:35,200
Cause what am I supposed to say?

1672
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:36,920
This, this bothered me.

1673
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:40,160
And then we were all back to work the next morning at zero 600.

1674
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:41,680
I believe that was a mistake.

1675
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:47,920
Um, I believe in critical incident policies that when these major events go on, your people

1676
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:52,000
need to have time off and they need to be required to check in with someone, um, to

1677
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:53,360
make sure they're okay.

1678
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:58,180
Because man, the, the, the crew that I was with or season people, I don't think any

1679
01:37:58,180 --> 01:38:04,480
of them had less than 20 years on patrol and, uh, they were rock stars, but me seeing these

1680
01:38:04,480 --> 01:38:09,760
seasoned officers be affected like that, it was a big deal and we should have received

1681
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:11,440
a different care.

1682
01:38:11,440 --> 01:38:15,280
And now Mesa is doing things differently, which I am so appreciative of, you know,

1683
01:38:15,280 --> 01:38:19,640
they've changed some things, but, um, that was just, that's a pretty typical response

1684
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:21,520
to a man to be quite honest with you.

1685
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:24,280
You know, if we get into a shooting, yup, they need four days off.

1686
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:26,720
They're going to go see someone to come back to work.

1687
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:31,440
You know, we do that, but then when we deal with this horrific event and everyone that

1688
01:38:31,440 --> 01:38:36,120
I talked to across the country, these child calls, man, they're, they're probably the

1689
01:38:36,120 --> 01:38:39,800
worst, um, to where, but we don't do anything for it.

1690
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:40,800
We don't provide care.

1691
01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:45,480
So, um, I knew right away though, I was not right.

1692
01:38:45,480 --> 01:38:47,360
Um, I knew I felt differently.

1693
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,640
I had been through a divorce about a year prior to that.

1694
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:52,600
So I had my custody arrangements for my two boys.

1695
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:58,400
I had them a week on a week off and the weeks that I did not have them was pretty rough.

1696
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:03,960
Um, alcohol was already part of my life, meaning I'd bought into the culture of, yeah, rough

1697
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:07,680
day, you know, go have a couple of drinks, but I had never, I wouldn't have considered

1698
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:08,680
myself now.

1699
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:10,920
Did I go out and party sometimes and drink too much?

1700
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:14,520
Of course there had been situations, but not a regular occurrence.

1701
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:19,440
Um, alcohol became probably one of my best friends cause I just felt like I needed it

1702
01:39:19,440 --> 01:39:20,440
to numb myself.

1703
01:39:20,440 --> 01:39:25,440
Cause when I'd come home, it was just very difficult.

1704
01:39:25,440 --> 01:39:30,600
Going back to the biological mother, talk to me about her part in this whole thing.

1705
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:31,600
Yeah.

1706
01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:32,840
And it's a pretty shitty part of it.

1707
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:33,840
Yeah.

1708
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:37,600
So, um, this dude in this apartment that had, um, this little girl in there, he was not

1709
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:42,000
a relative, um, but he was involved in the drug scene with her mom and she would drop

1710
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:48,080
her off there at days on end and let her, let him do with whatever he wanted.

1711
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:51,640
Um, she of course tried to claim she didn't understand it, but we know that was an absolute

1712
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:54,600
lie, um, to fund her drug habit.

1713
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:59,000
And then, uh, grandma was also involved as well knew this was all going on partaked in

1714
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:04,500
it and, um, but they've all now been sent to prison, but yeah, it was, it's pretty disgusting

1715
01:40:04,500 --> 01:40:05,500
deal man.

1716
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:12,080
Um, and then I know detectives that had to, unfortunately, um, the things that come with

1717
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:18,040
this, the videos and all that on this guy's computer, it was, uh, it was a horrific event

1718
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:21,600
that, um, I think it had been going on for about 18 months.

1719
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:23,800
So not good, man.

1720
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:24,800
Yeah.

1721
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:31,840
When I've spoken to people in the psychology world about predators, it always elicits such

1722
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:32,840
a different response.

1723
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:36,520
And, you know, obviously we talked earlier about, you know, compassion and understanding

1724
01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:43,060
childhood trauma and preventing crime in the first place, but it seems like the sex predator,

1725
01:40:43,060 --> 01:40:49,280
there is a biochemical difference than someone who was simply, you know, abused as a child.

1726
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:53,880
When you look back at that case, and I know your wife worked in that field, you know,

1727
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:59,000
for a long time, are there any common denominators with these predators that are different than

1728
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:01,720
the other criminals that you interacted with?

1729
01:41:01,720 --> 01:41:03,800
Man, I don't know.

1730
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:09,680
Like I guess, I guess they're not, you know, I know we see stupid TV shows and all this

1731
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:14,560
and you think these people are these, you know, yes, they're violent, but like openly

1732
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:20,360
violent like you would see like, oh, they must be doing, um, like this individual, um,

1733
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:28,320
I would have characterized him as very quiet, very withdrawn from normal society, um, almost

1734
01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:33,080
a darkness around them and maybe even how they conduct every part of their lives.

1735
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:37,560
And then even from the standpoint of, you know, some of the stings that I have, I specifically

1736
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:41,840
remember, I tell this story all the time where, you know, we're doing really sting operations

1737
01:41:41,840 --> 01:41:48,200
and a dude from, you know, United Postal Service, UPS, the brown trucks, he's in his uniform

1738
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:50,040
showing up to pick up this little girl.

1739
01:41:50,040 --> 01:41:53,920
He thinks he's going to meet a girl for sex and we arrest him for it.

1740
01:41:53,920 --> 01:41:58,780
Um, so yeah, I think like the psychologist or psychiatrist that studies people could

1741
01:41:58,780 --> 01:42:03,860
definitely paint a picture, but I wouldn't say it's like your typical, typical like people

1742
01:42:03,860 --> 01:42:08,880
that you maybe stand out, but maybe just kind of withdrawn, not seeming to fit in with normal

1743
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:12,240
society, that kind of stuff.

1744
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:16,040
One of the firefighters, which I think he was a firefighter, I think he was a paramedic,

1745
01:42:16,040 --> 01:42:20,520
um, single sir, but he popped up on to catch a predator one day.

1746
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:21,520
Yeah.

1747
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,960
So that's a profession that everyone, you know, respects and trusts.

1748
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:29,360
And he was, I forget the details of who he was thinking he was meeting, but it wasn't,

1749
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:30,360
it was a camera crew.

1750
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:33,040
But, uh, yeah, I mean, this is what's so sad.

1751
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:38,200
It's not the creepy guy, you know, with the, the rape van more often than not, these children

1752
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:43,760
are being groomed through the internet and, you know, meeting arguably normal looking

1753
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:44,760
people.

1754
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:45,760
Yeah.

1755
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:50,120
And I say, I've, I've been a part of those operations where we've arrested, uh, ministers,

1756
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:55,000
we've arrested computer engineers, we've arrested police officers.

1757
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:57,740
There is, uh, there's really, yeah.

1758
01:42:57,740 --> 01:43:02,680
If you try to paint it into this little picture and understand it, it's, it's very difficult

1759
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:05,880
to because it's unfortunately throughout our society.

1760
01:43:05,880 --> 01:43:06,880
Yeah.

1761
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:11,240
That's, I mean, again, I think there's so many areas that are preventable.

1762
01:43:11,240 --> 01:43:15,720
I mean, I talk about the ridiculous prohibition of drugs, you know, and the war on drugs.

1763
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:18,120
That's just been an epic 90 year failure.

1764
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:23,360
Now the resources that we could free up if we stopped chasing addiction and then obviously

1765
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:28,320
all the crimes that are associated with that, that then could be put into the smugglers

1766
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:33,640
and the dealers and the predators and all these, you know, really fucking broken people

1767
01:43:33,640 --> 01:43:35,840
that need to be behind bars.

1768
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,880
You know, you would have so many, you know, not only resources in the law enforcement

1769
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:43,720
side, but the court system will be freed up to actually make sure that those people are

1770
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:45,080
addressed properly.

1771
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:49,040
But the way that we've devolved to this, you know, as we said, homelessness and addiction

1772
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:54,980
and gang membership and sex work, there's so much that I think, you know, it's the ripple

1773
01:43:54,980 --> 01:43:55,980
effect of prohibition.

1774
01:43:55,980 --> 01:44:01,120
And if we can reverse that with some sort of proactive system like they use in Portugal

1775
01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:04,520
or Switzerland or some of these areas that have done it properly, not piecemealed it,

1776
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:09,360
like, you know, Portland, imagine, imagine the difference that we could make.

1777
01:44:09,360 --> 01:44:13,400
And now you would have enough eyes looking for these predators rather than getting lost

1778
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:18,280
in the white noise of all the, you know, the smaller crimes that you guys are flooded with.

1779
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:19,280
Right.

1780
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:20,280
Yeah.

1781
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:24,560
I mean, just talking to my wife, I mean, you know, whether people want to hear this or not,

1782
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:26,680
like we aren't even scratching the surface, James.

1783
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:31,680
I mean, she was constantly, you know, she's a go getter and she would say, like her bosses

1784
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:35,440
would say, you know, because you feel like you're drowning under cases all the time.

1785
01:44:35,440 --> 01:44:37,320
They're like, you're only one person.

1786
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:39,760
You just got to keep pushing forward.

1787
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:41,000
And that was a larger department.

1788
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:45,160
Now, like here in Montana, where there's smaller departments, they may be assigned one detective

1789
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:46,160
to it.

1790
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:48,080
They're not even scratching the surface, man.

1791
01:44:48,080 --> 01:44:50,120
And it is just, it's crazy.

1792
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:53,880
Yeah, we could, there's a lot of resources we could divert to that.

1793
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:58,120
And even from the federal level, whatever that means of like putting some task force

1794
01:44:58,120 --> 01:45:01,000
on this to just hit these people hard.

1795
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:05,840
But we continue to just do these things that are at the end of the day, aren't really making

1796
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:07,400
lasting change.

1797
01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:08,400
Absolutely.

1798
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:13,340
Well, you have that horrific call kind of walk me through the next few years and how

1799
01:45:13,340 --> 01:45:15,760
you found yourself at your darkest point.

1800
01:45:15,760 --> 01:45:16,760
Yeah, man.

1801
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:18,720
So I knew things weren't right.

1802
01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:22,000
But again, I'd come up in the culture where we just don't talk about it.

1803
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:27,560
I'd seen examples with my organization, other organizations where people that finally did

1804
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:29,400
say they needed help.

1805
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:32,640
And we listed as career suicide, you were just done.

1806
01:45:32,640 --> 01:45:34,720
They would think that you couldn't handle the stress anymore.

1807
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:37,040
So I was keeping it all inside.

1808
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:40,280
I was trying to cope with alcohol.

1809
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:51,160
I started having severe PTS situations, night terrors, just flashbacks.

1810
01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:54,160
The triggers from different things from the calls.

1811
01:45:54,160 --> 01:46:00,640
And then from that point on, even the calls that I was experiencing now, I wasn't handling

1812
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:02,920
them like I thought I'd handled them before.

1813
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:07,480
Specifically, I had a couple of murder suicides once I got my own patrol squad and got through

1814
01:46:07,480 --> 01:46:09,680
done training as a sergeant.

1815
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:11,180
And I handled the call just fine.

1816
01:46:11,180 --> 01:46:14,800
But then I went in the back corner, dark corner in the middle of the night and work a night

1817
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:16,400
shift and I'm balling.

1818
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:19,660
And I don't know what this is because this has never happened before.

1819
01:46:19,660 --> 01:46:25,120
And so I just kept trying to fight through it, coping in my own ways, negatively, not

1820
01:46:25,120 --> 01:46:28,120
good coping, terrible sleep, all of it.

1821
01:46:28,120 --> 01:46:31,680
And then I finally in 2017, I thought I got to do something.

1822
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:36,880
So I did go to our peer support group and I said, hey, I actually lied to him.

1823
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:37,880
So this is my ownership.

1824
01:46:37,880 --> 01:46:39,960
I said, I've been through a divorce.

1825
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:44,200
I had been through a divorce, but I said I needed to go because the child custody battles

1826
01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:46,840
with my ex, all these things just wearing on me.

1827
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:48,240
I need to talk to somebody.

1828
01:46:48,240 --> 01:46:53,280
So they sent me to this individual who he did a bunch of stuff for our organization

1829
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:56,440
and other organizations and he was horrible.

1830
01:46:56,440 --> 01:47:01,780
I've seen all of his notes and everything now, but he was definitely he was not invested

1831
01:47:01,780 --> 01:47:02,940
in us.

1832
01:47:02,940 --> 01:47:08,760
From my perspective, he was only there because he's getting paid for it.

1833
01:47:08,760 --> 01:47:12,640
Ultimately, I would give him a little bit of information and my ownership is I didn't

1834
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:13,960
tell him what I was at all.

1835
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:18,560
I was dealing with the suicidal ideations, all these things, because I was trying to

1836
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:19,560
feel him out.

1837
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:21,560
I was like, is this going to mean the end of my career?

1838
01:47:21,560 --> 01:47:23,720
What's he going to do to me?

1839
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:28,620
I ultimately told him a little bit more information every time up until the fourth time.

1840
01:47:28,620 --> 01:47:31,960
And I told him about this little girl's name at the time was Ruby.

1841
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:35,720
I said, hey, you know, I told her told him about what happened and his notes on this

1842
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:40,680
paper literally reads in quotations distressed about girl and bag.

1843
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:43,160
And he gave, you know, this is an intake form.

1844
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:46,000
There's nothing there like, yeah, I'd like you to be off work.

1845
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:48,320
There's nothing I need you to come once a week.

1846
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:52,020
When I was getting at the end of that session, he said, well, just contact me again when

1847
01:47:52,020 --> 01:47:53,760
things are stressful.

1848
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:56,780
And I honestly I'm like, well, fucking everyday stressful.

1849
01:47:56,780 --> 01:47:59,740
So I was like, screw you, man, I can't come here every day.

1850
01:47:59,740 --> 01:48:03,240
And you're giving me no pathway to get things better.

1851
01:48:03,240 --> 01:48:07,180
So I guess the route that Travis is on figuring the shit on my own.

1852
01:48:07,180 --> 01:48:09,780
This is how I will continue.

1853
01:48:09,780 --> 01:48:14,700
So I walked out of there and even the first time I went in there, I was not a believer

1854
01:48:14,700 --> 01:48:16,280
in therapy at this point in my life.

1855
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:17,900
I thought it was all bullshit.

1856
01:48:17,900 --> 01:48:21,200
You know, I'm like, these people don't understand what the fuck it is I do all this stuff.

1857
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:26,200
So left there and then kept doing my thing.

1858
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:27,240
Things were not getting better.

1859
01:48:27,240 --> 01:48:31,600
And then I get a call that they're going to bring me back to the team as a team leader.

1860
01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:34,920
Well, to me, I think that's going to be the answer because all I need is I need to be

1861
01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:40,040
back with my buddies full time off the street doing the SWAT thing.

1862
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:41,440
And this will all subside.

1863
01:48:41,440 --> 01:48:43,600
This will just be a distant memory.

1864
01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:49,800
But when I went back to the team, we were busier than ever, which is not good because

1865
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:52,220
I'm getting no reset time.

1866
01:48:52,220 --> 01:48:54,720
And I just keep trying to shove anything down.

1867
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:57,920
I'm drinking more than ever and just go, go, go.

1868
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:03,320
But I hit it work quite honestly, because when I was home, I didn't like the way I felt.

1869
01:49:03,320 --> 01:49:04,920
You know, I didn't like what was going on up here.

1870
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:09,680
But I always well, if I just keep going, if I just keep driving 1000 miles an hour, I

1871
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:11,920
can put those thoughts at bay.

1872
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:16,040
But you know what that does physically, then it's just it's destroying you in all different

1873
01:49:16,040 --> 01:49:18,000
aspects of your life.

1874
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:24,160
So throughout that time, you know, and again, progressing through the years, again, our

1875
01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:30,320
team at this point, our culture was like we made fun of people that came forward for help.

1876
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:32,320
So am I going to come forward for help?

1877
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:33,520
No, I'm going to join in.

1878
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:34,520
Disgusting.

1879
01:49:34,520 --> 01:49:37,840
I regret that my team has now changed, thankfully.

1880
01:49:37,840 --> 01:49:42,000
But I was part of the culture I had bought into it, that if you couldn't handle it, then

1881
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:44,480
it must mean you're not fit for this job.

1882
01:49:44,480 --> 01:49:49,500
And I was just so completely ignorant, man.

1883
01:49:49,500 --> 01:49:51,300
So kept pushing through there.

1884
01:49:51,300 --> 01:49:55,240
And I had some emotional breakdowns outside of work.

1885
01:49:55,240 --> 01:50:01,120
Emily, my wife, who she is a rock star, just my support all the time, she would see these

1886
01:50:01,120 --> 01:50:03,560
things like, hey, I really want you to get help.

1887
01:50:03,560 --> 01:50:07,880
Her unit had actually been going to that knucklehead that I went to that I didn't like.

1888
01:50:07,880 --> 01:50:10,120
And they had some pretty horrible experiences with him.

1889
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:15,400
So they were the only union in Mesa at that time, Internet Crimes Against Children.

1890
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:20,600
They were required to go once a quarter to go see a therapist.

1891
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:22,060
I love that.

1892
01:50:22,060 --> 01:50:25,280
But I always laugh about it now because like if it's good enough for them, why is the whole

1893
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:27,560
department not required to go in once a quarter?

1894
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:29,320
So that's another subject.

1895
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:33,360
But they had changed to this new person.

1896
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:36,400
And my wife worked with a couple of Salty Detectives that I knew.

1897
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:41,800
And she's like, hey, even these two guys, they are having success with her.

1898
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:43,240
And I didn't even know at the time.

1899
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:47,600
But what she's telling me is this person is culturally competent.

1900
01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:49,680
She understands what it is we go through.

1901
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:56,240
And somehow through all that, she's able to bridge and create this trust for people to

1902
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:59,480
be able to open up and say what's really going on.

1903
01:50:59,480 --> 01:51:02,680
But I still wasn't buying into it.

1904
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:07,160
I had situations, you know, one time Emily found me in the garage.

1905
01:51:07,160 --> 01:51:08,640
I'd come across the gray duct tape.

1906
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,280
It was the first time I'd seen it since Ruby.

1907
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:17,080
And man, I felt like I was literally standing at that door again that day, picking her up

1908
01:51:17,080 --> 01:51:18,080
out of that bag.

1909
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:19,560
Didn't know what that was.

1910
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:20,560
I'm crying.

1911
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:22,040
I feel my heart rate again.

1912
01:51:22,040 --> 01:51:24,160
But again, who am I going to tell this to?

1913
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:28,320
Because I've never been educated about this is why this is happening or someone telling

1914
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:33,520
you, Travis, this is a perfectly normal response to a very abnormal situation.

1915
01:51:33,520 --> 01:51:35,000
I've never heard those words.

1916
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:38,880
I just, all I had heard is you're fucked up if you can't handle this.

1917
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:44,240
And so I just kept bottling, man, and just not healthy at all.

1918
01:51:44,240 --> 01:51:46,840
Emily wasn't telling me she was going to leave me by any means.

1919
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:49,480
But she was saying, like, she's pretty adamant.

1920
01:51:49,480 --> 01:51:52,120
My wife's pretty assertive.

1921
01:51:52,120 --> 01:51:54,320
She's done the job for a while.

1922
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:55,960
And she was saying, you're going to go get help.

1923
01:51:55,960 --> 01:52:03,280
But I kept putting it off until finally in 2021, I had actually had listened to her.

1924
01:52:03,280 --> 01:52:08,880
So the beginning of 2021, sometime in January, early February, I called this person, her

1925
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:12,160
name is Jennifer Cooper, that my wife and her team were going to.

1926
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:14,440
And I said, hey, I'd just like to make an appointment.

1927
01:52:14,440 --> 01:52:17,800
Didn't tell her I was in distress, anything like that.

1928
01:52:17,800 --> 01:52:23,000
And so we made an appointment for early in March of 2021.

1929
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:27,640
And it was a Monday, and I was supposed to be going, you know, I was going to her office.

1930
01:52:27,640 --> 01:52:29,240
I was the on-call team leader.

1931
01:52:29,240 --> 01:52:32,840
I told some of the team, I said, hey, I got to run into Phoenix to handle some shit.

1932
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:34,600
I of course didn't tell them where I was going.

1933
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:39,360
I didn't want them to tell them I was going to anybody.

1934
01:52:39,360 --> 01:52:40,600
And so I had to Phoenix.

1935
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:45,400
And I'm literally pulling into her office, Jennifer's office, and a barricade suspect

1936
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:50,000
call kicks out back in Mason's, meaning our team is getting called out to come handle

1937
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:51,260
this person.

1938
01:52:51,260 --> 01:52:52,800
So easy for me.

1939
01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:53,800
Cool.

1940
01:52:53,800 --> 01:52:54,920
I don't have to go to my appointment now.

1941
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:56,240
And so I answered up for it.

1942
01:52:56,240 --> 01:53:01,160
And even when I had a couple buddies text me and say, hey, boss, we've got this, you know,

1943
01:53:01,160 --> 01:53:03,120
just come join us when you're done with whatever you're doing.

1944
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:04,760
But I said, no, I'm the on-call team leader.

1945
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:05,800
I got to go.

1946
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:08,340
But it was Travis just running from it again.

1947
01:53:08,340 --> 01:53:12,360
So I contacted Jennifer real quick, cancel the appointment.

1948
01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:16,480
She said, OK, get with me when you can, you know, again, we'll reschedule.

1949
01:53:16,480 --> 01:53:20,000
So race back to Mesa, handle this barricade pretty uneventful.

1950
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:24,220
We end up gassing the guy out, comes out with no further incident.

1951
01:53:24,220 --> 01:53:25,840
We do our debrief on scene.

1952
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:27,760
We send everybody home.

1953
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:31,440
And about 45 minutes after I got home, getting cleaned up, sitting down with dinner with

1954
01:53:31,440 --> 01:53:37,560
Emily, one of my bosses call and said they have a hostage rescue in East Mesa.

1955
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:40,840
What East Mesa in this area is a very nice area.

1956
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:46,040
And so they give me the details, the details where a little girl had escaped her house

1957
01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:51,320
and inside she was already been shot once and her dad had badly beaten her.

1958
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:55,960
And inside the home was still her mom and 18 year old sister.

1959
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:59,920
So getting this information coming from the SWAT world, I knew like I wasn't going to

1960
01:53:59,920 --> 01:54:03,760
have a long time for a very strung out deliberate plan.

1961
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:06,840
It was going to be probably we get on scene.

1962
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:10,180
Travis, you know, rounds up the guys I can.

1963
01:54:10,180 --> 01:54:14,460
We come up with a very hasty plan and we're going to go hit this house and stop this guy

1964
01:54:14,460 --> 01:54:17,520
from killing anybody else or hurting anybody else.

1965
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:21,400
So sure enough, we roll, get there.

1966
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:27,160
I grab a team, put it together real quick and we end up making entry through a backslider

1967
01:54:27,160 --> 01:54:33,160
door, shotgun breach, drop the glass and we make entry into the house.

1968
01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:39,400
Immediately inside we see a male with obviously deceased gunshot wound to the head.

1969
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:43,680
And the other side of a couch was an older female, obvious deceased gunshot wound to

1970
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:44,680
the head.

1971
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:48,760
But the scene there was blood all over the place away from these bodies, which, you know,

1972
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:52,580
at the time I wasn't even computing what I was seeing.

1973
01:54:52,580 --> 01:54:56,140
We work our way up and you know, in this blood, there's like big tile floors.

1974
01:54:56,140 --> 01:54:59,200
We see little footprints and stuff distinctly remember that.

1975
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:03,760
That was now I know from the little girl who had escaped, she was barefoot.

1976
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:08,080
And then going up the stairs, there's blood smeared down the wall and her little hand

1977
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:10,400
prints in the blood.

1978
01:55:10,400 --> 01:55:17,040
Just so weird because we were in operation mode and numerous of us recall after we debrief,

1979
01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:20,880
we saw these prints, which is odd to me still to this day.

1980
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:25,480
But almost like a finger painting, you know, if you do painting things, you put the prints

1981
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:27,160
in, that's what it looked like.

1982
01:55:27,160 --> 01:55:32,260
We made our way upstairs and unfortunately our last room, we find the 18-year-old sister

1983
01:55:32,260 --> 01:55:37,720
and she was still in the covers on her head on the pillow, obvious deceased with gunshot

1984
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:40,440
wound to the head.

1985
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:44,000
And man, that rocked me.

1986
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:45,080
There's a couple different reasons.

1987
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:48,200
Number one, I didn't have much more room for any capacity of shit.

1988
01:55:48,200 --> 01:55:50,260
I was at the end of my rope.

1989
01:55:50,260 --> 01:55:56,420
But also I was fully expecting and now I've talked to many other operators, even some

1990
01:55:56,420 --> 01:55:59,960
military guys not understanding why I was feeling so horrible.

1991
01:55:59,960 --> 01:56:02,640
I thought I was going in there to rescue these people.

1992
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:04,440
I was going to save the day.

1993
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:09,320
I had full intention, like, you know, almost thirsting, like, okay, we're going to kill

1994
01:56:09,320 --> 01:56:10,320
the suspect.

1995
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:13,040
I'll kill the suspect however it needs to be done.

1996
01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:15,400
And we get in there and we find everyone dead.

1997
01:56:15,400 --> 01:56:18,000
I was prepared for a rescue.

1998
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:21,720
I was not prepared for a recovery and that's what it ended up being.

1999
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:25,520
And so numerous of my teammates, they were not well inside.

2000
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:27,240
It just hit us pretty hard.

2001
01:56:27,240 --> 01:56:32,360
And man, we had been running so hard, like call the call, the call, not much rest in

2002
01:56:32,360 --> 01:56:37,740
the last month prior to this and we were just we were just kind of done.

2003
01:56:37,740 --> 01:56:45,120
And so we ended up pulling the team off for 24 hours and just to try to let guys go home

2004
01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:46,160
and get some sleep.

2005
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:47,720
We didn't really get much sleep.

2006
01:56:47,720 --> 01:56:51,240
And yeah, that was that took me up.

2007
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:53,160
That was the very last call of my career.

2008
01:56:53,160 --> 01:56:57,120
That was the last call I ever went on.

2009
01:56:57,120 --> 01:57:03,800
Two things, firstly, when I look back at my career, 14 years as an EMT, firefighter EMT

2010
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:08,080
and then paramedic, I never had a single code save.

2011
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:13,920
So someone went into cardiac arrest in 14 years and then add the guy on the airplane.

2012
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:15,600
That's another one as well.

2013
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:20,480
And what I realized when I look back is when you're in the police academy, when you're

2014
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:25,480
probably even the SWAT training, if you do A, B and C, you get, you know, result D. And

2015
01:57:25,480 --> 01:57:28,840
usually it's the person, you know, gets up and hugs you or they bring you a cake to the

2016
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:30,480
fire station.

2017
01:57:30,480 --> 01:57:35,080
But in reality, you know, a cardiac arrest save is very, very rare.

2018
01:57:35,080 --> 01:57:38,040
Pulling someone alive who's trapped from a fire is very, very rare.

2019
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:43,680
You know, finding someone alive in a mangled car or, you know, a hostage situation is rare.

2020
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:48,440
And I think that that inability to save is such a crushing weight.

2021
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:53,800
And it's only when you realize that you are not God and you don't decide if people live

2022
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:57,800
or die that you can finally give yourself some grace in those calls.

2023
01:57:57,800 --> 01:57:58,800
Right.

2024
01:57:58,800 --> 01:57:59,800
No, 100% man.

2025
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:04,080
And speaking of your service, how you guys, I saw help a police officer recently, there

2026
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:05,080
was a police officer.

2027
01:58:05,080 --> 01:58:10,400
I knew he was going through some hard times because he had been first on scene to help

2028
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:14,640
with a baby who had went in a pool in Arizona and had done compressions and stuff.

2029
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:18,360
And it was probably useless from the beginning, but the baby did not make it.

2030
01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:22,440
And he had been living with for a very long time because they, again, they didn't do appropriate

2031
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:23,440
debriefs.

2032
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:25,400
This was a failure.

2033
01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:30,520
But then somehow he gets connected with the firefighters around that call.

2034
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:36,200
And one of the senior guys merely said to them, do you know how many saves I've had

2035
01:58:36,200 --> 01:58:37,680
in my career?

2036
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:39,380
And this dude's like forever on.

2037
01:58:39,380 --> 01:58:41,080
And they're like zero.

2038
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:43,240
And the officer's like, what?

2039
01:58:43,240 --> 01:58:44,840
Like I thought you guys did this all the time.

2040
01:58:44,840 --> 01:58:49,160
Like no, like that is a fallacy that like we think like we make all these saves.

2041
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:53,600
So that's it's huge, man, of what we can do differently.

2042
01:58:53,600 --> 01:58:58,080
Like, yeah, the expectation is I'm there and I'm going to save everyone.

2043
01:58:58,080 --> 01:59:00,840
But 99.9% of the time that never happens.

2044
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:01,840
Yeah.

2045
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:05,840
And I think where you rescue what we call pre-code when they're about to go into cardiac

2046
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:08,840
arrest, that's where you make your saves, where you guys are getting to someone right

2047
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:11,000
before they do something horrible.

2048
01:59:11,000 --> 01:59:12,600
That's where a lot of your saves are.

2049
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:17,400
But yeah, when it comes to that worst critical call, we have expectations up here, but the

2050
01:59:17,400 --> 01:59:21,640
reality is it just doesn't equate, you know, and then you have the shame and the guilt

2051
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:22,640
that's layered on.

2052
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:24,240
Like what if I did it differently?

2053
01:59:24,240 --> 01:59:26,400
But it doesn't matter.

2054
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:27,960
You only arrive when you arrive.

2055
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:30,680
You only had the gear that you had and the training that you had.

2056
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:36,720
And that's just, I think, where back to the recruitment standards, the only thing that

2057
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:40,720
you have that can actually put your mind at rest is like, I took my job seriously.

2058
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:41,920
I trained diligently.

2059
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:43,400
I'm in great shape.

2060
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:46,060
Therefore, I gave that person every chance.

2061
01:59:46,060 --> 01:59:51,480
If you create an environment where you allow those standards to be low or nonexistent,

2062
01:59:51,480 --> 01:59:55,480
now you've got first responders that know in their heart of hearts that maybe that person

2063
01:59:55,480 --> 01:59:58,720
died because they hadn't trained properly and that will haunt them forever.

2064
01:59:58,720 --> 01:59:59,720
Agreed.

2065
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:01,040
Yeah, that's a great point.

2066
02:00:01,040 --> 02:00:06,680
We can definitely preparing our minds for the reality would be so much better of the

2067
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:12,760
kind of the fairy tale things we put up here, what we're going to do in this profession.

2068
02:00:12,760 --> 02:00:17,360
You talked as well about the bad counselor experience and this is again a reoccurring

2069
02:00:17,360 --> 02:00:18,360
theme here.

2070
02:00:18,360 --> 02:00:24,160
The number of incredibly powerful conversations that I've had on here and so many arguably

2071
02:00:24,160 --> 02:00:26,760
alphas, be in tears.

2072
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:27,760
You said about I shouldn't apologize.

2073
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:28,760
You're damn right.

2074
02:00:28,760 --> 02:00:29,760
You shouldn't apologize.

2075
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:31,020
We are yin and yang.

2076
02:00:31,020 --> 02:00:34,360
We should be able to cry when we've been through the stuff that we have.

2077
02:00:34,360 --> 02:00:41,580
But what really scares me is I've heard stories about EAP nightmare counselor experiences,

2078
02:00:41,580 --> 02:00:42,640
but I heard them.

2079
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:46,240
That means that they were able to find someone better and get through it.

2080
02:00:46,240 --> 02:00:50,720
How many EAP horror stories will I never hear because that was the final nail in the coffin

2081
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:51,720
for that person?

2082
02:00:51,720 --> 02:00:52,720
100% man.

2083
02:00:52,720 --> 02:01:00,220
You know, the EAP thing is a touchy subject with many people, but everywhere that we go

2084
02:01:00,220 --> 02:01:03,680
and we present and I do it with the utmost respect.

2085
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,000
EAP is not working.

2086
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:09,960
It is just and you know, Travis, when I've started this whole thing, the mental health,

2087
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:15,000
I could back then I would say, well, that was my experience or maybe a couple more people.

2088
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:20,820
But when you've been where I have been across the country from agency to agency to conferences,

2089
02:01:20,820 --> 02:01:26,520
the messages I get EAP is failing our first responders.

2090
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:28,140
There's no way around it.

2091
02:01:28,140 --> 02:01:29,900
We don't trust it.

2092
02:01:29,900 --> 02:01:31,400
It is not a good experience.

2093
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:35,160
EAP, if people don't know this, I assume most of your listeners do.

2094
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:39,540
They are the it's going to the lowest bidder.

2095
02:01:39,540 --> 02:01:40,760
Let's just be quite frank.

2096
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:44,800
One of the therapists I work with in Montana had an organization wanting to add her on

2097
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:45,800
the EAP.

2098
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:48,520
The starting rate was $35 an hour.

2099
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:51,080
She can't even keep the lights on for that.

2100
02:01:51,080 --> 02:01:53,160
And it's just ridiculous.

2101
02:01:53,160 --> 02:01:54,840
And one person said it the best to me.

2102
02:01:54,840 --> 02:01:58,480
He said, yeah, because he believes unions should be getting involved in this stuff,

2103
02:01:58,480 --> 02:01:59,480
too.

2104
02:01:59,480 --> 02:02:04,200
So you go before the people you're advocating to for this change in how we do things say,

2105
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:10,880
so if your child ends up with cancer, do you go pick the cheapest doctor there is to take

2106
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:11,880
care of him?

2107
02:02:11,880 --> 02:02:16,960
Or how many of you would search the country travel no matter where you have to go to get

2108
02:02:16,960 --> 02:02:18,720
the best possible care?

2109
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:21,240
Why are our first responders any different?

2110
02:02:21,240 --> 02:02:22,420
Plain and simple.

2111
02:02:22,420 --> 02:02:27,200
And you if you can't say that I want the best for them, then again, this is the time where

2112
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:32,560
the leadership needs to say, well, maybe I need to pass the torch off to somebody else.

2113
02:02:32,560 --> 02:02:34,400
This is something I've been talking about a lot.

2114
02:02:34,400 --> 02:02:39,120
And then, you know, to dip my knuckles in glass, calling out the cowards in the fire

2115
02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:40,120
service.

2116
02:02:40,120 --> 02:02:44,400
And I think the issue that we have that maybe is underpinning is either low standards at

2117
02:02:44,400 --> 02:02:50,600
the front door that now you've got these turds wearing bugles, or more likely, you have people

2118
02:02:50,600 --> 02:02:54,980
that came up through the same kind of, you know, ladder that we did, who didn't address

2119
02:02:54,980 --> 02:02:56,760
their own mental health things.

2120
02:02:56,760 --> 02:03:02,080
And now they're in a position where they don't have the capacity to feel empathy for the

2121
02:03:02,080 --> 02:03:04,320
people that work under them.

2122
02:03:04,320 --> 02:03:09,920
And for example, the agency that's local to me, they've had three or four suicides in

2123
02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:11,200
as many years.

2124
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:13,720
And all of them, three of them were really young.

2125
02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:16,960
And one was about, you know, my age, a little bit younger, but the other three, we decided

2126
02:03:16,960 --> 02:03:19,160
30 years old.

2127
02:03:19,160 --> 02:03:24,480
And we've I've tried my hardest to talk about the work week, we even got him involved with

2128
02:03:24,480 --> 02:03:28,100
a study where the chief and I went to this study.

2129
02:03:28,100 --> 02:03:31,840
And then one of the outcomes was you need to change the work week, you need to have

2130
02:03:31,840 --> 02:03:36,560
the clinicians in the department, and nothing, it fell on deaf ears.

2131
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:41,120
And this is exactly to use the verb as you just said, I said the same thing.

2132
02:03:41,120 --> 02:03:46,400
If people die in your department, and that doesn't set you on a fucking mission to scour

2133
02:03:46,400 --> 02:03:52,180
the earth for solutions, then you need to look in the mirror and just simply ask why.

2134
02:03:52,180 --> 02:03:56,800
And it's no different than you have the head of a cigarette company, or Purdue farmer or

2135
02:03:56,800 --> 02:04:02,040
McDonald's, knowing that millions of Americans are dying because your product and you can

2136
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:03,680
fucking sleep at night.

2137
02:04:03,680 --> 02:04:05,920
You are borderline sociopath.

2138
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:09,960
So I think the mental health conversation, we always look at the level that you and I

2139
02:04:09,960 --> 02:04:10,960
were at.

2140
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:14,080
But we forget that exists in the management level too.

2141
02:04:14,080 --> 02:04:19,480
And so if you look at a chief and they are unfazed by suicides and cancers, then either

2142
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:23,680
they need to have a fucking come to Jesus moment and turn their shit around, or you

2143
02:04:23,680 --> 02:04:27,680
need to have a fucking French Revolution moment, get rid of them and put someone worthy in

2144
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:28,680
that position.

2145
02:04:28,680 --> 02:04:29,680
Agreed.

2146
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:32,160
There's a report that I referenced.

2147
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:36,560
So the IACP, it's the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

2148
02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:39,920
Not that I agree with everything that they do, you know, some things I don't, but they

2149
02:04:39,920 --> 02:04:45,640
last year put out the 2023 suicide prevention report for law enforcement, which would apply

2150
02:04:45,640 --> 02:04:47,420
to all first responders.

2151
02:04:47,420 --> 02:04:52,000
But the number one thing that they say is a roadblock is the number one is the culture,

2152
02:04:52,000 --> 02:04:55,680
meaning that your organization does not support people coming forward for help.

2153
02:04:55,680 --> 02:05:01,000
And then the number two thing is every organization needs to have access to a culturally competent

2154
02:05:01,000 --> 02:05:04,880
therapist and every one of your people needs to know how to get a hold of them, what that

2155
02:05:04,880 --> 02:05:06,080
looks like.

2156
02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:12,340
And then also instituting mandatory wellness checks throughout your agency for everybody.

2157
02:05:12,340 --> 02:05:18,080
And so it didn't say, oh, if you're only a 50 man department, it says everybody.

2158
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:22,600
That means if you have 2000 people, guess what, you better figure out how you're getting

2159
02:05:22,600 --> 02:05:27,920
them care, giving them access to someone that knows how to take care of them.

2160
02:05:27,920 --> 02:05:32,680
Because the consequences is you're going to have blood on your hands.

2161
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:33,680
Plain and simple.

2162
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:34,840
There is no more.

2163
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:36,760
There is no more hiding from this.

2164
02:05:36,760 --> 02:05:38,400
There is no more stuffing it aside.

2165
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:40,120
You can still not do anything.

2166
02:05:40,120 --> 02:05:44,180
But like I said, you will then have blood on your hands.

2167
02:05:44,180 --> 02:05:48,880
One of the conversations that's come up a lot is simply the false economy of the way

2168
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:50,080
we work our first responders.

2169
02:05:50,080 --> 02:05:52,920
I even had Tulsi Gabbard on the show and I looked at it nationally.

2170
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:53,920
It's the same thing.

2171
02:05:53,920 --> 02:05:59,780
You look at the war on drugs, imagine all the money that was there to put into mental

2172
02:05:59,780 --> 02:06:06,560
health counseling, drug rehabilitation, work creation, housing, all the things that would

2173
02:06:06,560 --> 02:06:07,940
turn this around.

2174
02:06:07,940 --> 02:06:09,720
You'd save money hand over fist.

2175
02:06:09,720 --> 02:06:13,600
And now you've, as we said, got law enforcement that can actually do their job and court systems

2176
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:15,280
that can support them.

2177
02:06:15,280 --> 02:06:17,840
And it's the same in the first responder professions.

2178
02:06:17,840 --> 02:06:18,840
There's money.

2179
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:22,880
There's so much money to put an extra shift in the fire service to hire culturally competent

2180
02:06:22,880 --> 02:06:25,880
clinicians so therefore money isn't a barrier to entry.

2181
02:06:25,880 --> 02:06:31,040
Because that's one of the biggest things is the insurance or they're outside your network

2182
02:06:31,040 --> 02:06:32,440
and it's $100 an hour.

2183
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:36,280
And so there's a will to get help, but you just can't afford it.

2184
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:39,700
And one thing that I don't know if you had the similar thing, but I work for four agencies

2185
02:06:39,700 --> 02:06:44,600
ultimately and three of them I had to do a polygraph, which I lied my way through because

2186
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:46,560
I had a fucking blast when I was younger.

2187
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:50,720
So I was honest once on an application got thrown in my face and I like, oh, okay, so

2188
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:52,760
you got to be lied to be a firefighter.

2189
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:56,320
So I pretended to be a choir boy and got job after job.

2190
02:06:56,320 --> 02:07:05,080
But then we had the MMPI, I think it is Minnesota, multiple or multifaceted personality interview,

2191
02:07:05,080 --> 02:07:06,280
I think it is.

2192
02:07:06,280 --> 02:07:08,000
And it's an absolute bullshit test.

2193
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:09,000
I'm sure you took it.

2194
02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:10,000
It's like, do you like flowers?

2195
02:07:10,000 --> 02:07:11,000
Do you like riding a bike?

2196
02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:12,000
Do you like sunshine?

2197
02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:13,000
Do you like touching kids?

2198
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:14,000
Do you like lambs?

2199
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:17,400
And you know, wait, what was that?

2200
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:18,600
So that's bullshit too.

2201
02:07:18,600 --> 02:07:22,280
And I've asked people in all fields of psychology and psychiatry and they're like, that was

2202
02:07:22,280 --> 02:07:27,280
never meant to be a standalone test to determine if you could be a firefighter or a cop.

2203
02:07:27,280 --> 02:07:33,000
So just taking that money from that ridiculous testing, because you've done a background,

2204
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:34,880
you've done all the physical and written tests.

2205
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:38,840
And you know, so you should know if it's a good person, bad person and able.

2206
02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:44,040
So take that money and then at the front door, as you said, you know, like every quarter,

2207
02:07:44,040 --> 02:07:48,680
I love that, but your new hires as part of your probation, when they're in the FTO program

2208
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:52,640
or whatever it is, give them five sessions.

2209
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:55,740
So now you've normalized mental health at the front door.

2210
02:07:55,740 --> 02:08:00,080
You've given them the opportunity to offload what we discussed, maybe years of trauma before

2211
02:08:00,080 --> 02:08:03,720
we ever put the uniform on and you've removed the barrier to entry.

2212
02:08:03,720 --> 02:08:07,160
So if they just want to tune up or they're actually struggling, they can go to Sandra

2213
02:08:07,160 --> 02:08:10,100
or Steve and say, Hey, I need help.

2214
02:08:10,100 --> 02:08:14,220
So rather than this box checking, you know, facade, I mean, a polygraph is basically a

2215
02:08:14,220 --> 02:08:21,020
magic show, actually put money into proactively giving these people time with a counselor.

2216
02:08:21,020 --> 02:08:24,200
And then that will set them up through their career, especially if you said if you're getting

2217
02:08:24,200 --> 02:08:27,560
tune ups every three months, six months, whatever it is.

2218
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:28,560
Agreed.

2219
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:35,200
And James, and I would say with all that, I understand the financial restraints for anyone

2220
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:37,120
lit sitting in the number one seat.

2221
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:39,400
I understand that's always challenging.

2222
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:44,440
I would say in regards to this, it is not a financial problem.

2223
02:08:44,440 --> 02:08:46,300
It's a priority problem.

2224
02:08:46,300 --> 02:08:52,340
You can find the money, you can reform programs, you know, shuffle things around.

2225
02:08:52,340 --> 02:08:56,160
If this is not a priority, that's because you haven't made a priority.

2226
02:08:56,160 --> 02:08:57,160
Absolutely.

2227
02:08:57,160 --> 02:08:58,160
Yeah.

2228
02:08:58,160 --> 02:09:00,960
Like I said, the money's downstream to put it back up.

2229
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:01,960
Right.

2230
02:09:01,960 --> 02:09:07,240
So as far as far as your journey, I didn't hear you say this specifically with Andy,

2231
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:11,520
but I mean, a lot of people that have been on here, they're the lowest of lows includes

2232
02:09:11,520 --> 02:09:16,480
suicide ideation and planning, even some near misses or actually in some of my guests, even

2233
02:09:16,480 --> 02:09:18,500
they went through with it and survived.

2234
02:09:18,500 --> 02:09:21,020
Where did you find yourself as far as the lowest part?

2235
02:09:21,020 --> 02:09:24,560
And then what have been the tools that have helped you grow from that trauma?

2236
02:09:24,560 --> 02:09:25,560
Yeah.

2237
02:09:25,560 --> 02:09:32,280
I mean, I'd say probably, I mean, unfortunately, like that five year span of 2016 from the

2238
02:09:32,280 --> 02:09:37,800
call through 2021, I was in the darkest days of my career, meaning I was high performing

2239
02:09:37,800 --> 02:09:38,800
at work.

2240
02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:40,840
But when I was alone, I didn't like what was going on up here.

2241
02:09:40,840 --> 02:09:43,320
I wasn't comfortable.

2242
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:47,560
I was a prisoner to my own mind.

2243
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:48,560
Suicidal ideations.

2244
02:09:48,560 --> 02:09:49,560
Yeah.

2245
02:09:49,560 --> 02:09:51,440
See my gun every day.

2246
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:52,440
Train every day.

2247
02:09:52,440 --> 02:09:53,440
I could do this.

2248
02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:54,440
No problem.

2249
02:09:54,440 --> 02:09:58,600
I just gotta do it because I've seen people that aren't successful or riding my Harley.

2250
02:09:58,600 --> 02:09:59,600
Yep.

2251
02:09:59,600 --> 02:10:00,600
I had a Harley back in Arizona.

2252
02:10:00,600 --> 02:10:01,600
Yeah.

2253
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:03,240
I can just go a hundred miles an hour into the front of that vehicle.

2254
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:04,240
No one will know the better.

2255
02:10:04,240 --> 02:10:05,920
They just think it's an accident.

2256
02:10:05,920 --> 02:10:09,040
And at least it wasn't, I didn't want to die.

2257
02:10:09,040 --> 02:10:16,120
I never, of course, wanted to exit from my wife, from my boys, but the pain was so intense

2258
02:10:16,120 --> 02:10:19,000
with what was going on up here and how I was feeling inside.

2259
02:10:19,000 --> 02:10:23,000
I just needed it to stop.

2260
02:10:23,000 --> 02:10:24,800
And that's where I was.

2261
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:32,320
But now, man, I've taken such a different, I don't want people to think that Travis has

2262
02:10:32,320 --> 02:10:35,640
it all figured out because every day is a new challenge for me.

2263
02:10:35,640 --> 02:10:41,840
And quite frankly, I'm fascinated now by the challenges of getting control of this mind

2264
02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:45,100
and how I tackle every single day.

2265
02:10:45,100 --> 02:10:47,360
But I use all those experiences now.

2266
02:10:47,360 --> 02:10:52,440
I do not, like I have one of my boys, my youngest.

2267
02:10:52,440 --> 02:10:53,440
He's toyed with it.

2268
02:10:53,440 --> 02:10:57,880
And now it's all of a sudden he's thinking about becoming a police officer again.

2269
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:00,080
And he knows what I've been through.

2270
02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:01,080
He knows my story.

2271
02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:02,440
He's heard me speak.

2272
02:11:02,440 --> 02:11:06,720
But I told him just the other day, I said, hey, man, like Emily and I, we don't regret

2273
02:11:06,720 --> 02:11:12,960
anything we did in our career as far as like, we now see all these amazing things that happened

2274
02:11:12,960 --> 02:11:15,480
and all these struggles that I went through.

2275
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:21,040
It's how it's post-traumatic growth where I've turned into because of what I went through

2276
02:11:21,040 --> 02:11:28,160
and because of the situation and the 2016 call, the cumulative calls throughout my career.

2277
02:11:28,160 --> 02:11:30,200
It's who I am today.

2278
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:36,840
And now it's just, I guess, a change in perspective to where I used to curse those days.

2279
02:11:36,840 --> 02:11:39,680
After the Ruby thing happened, man, I was pissed.

2280
02:11:39,680 --> 02:11:41,400
I decided to promote.

2281
02:11:41,400 --> 02:11:43,320
I was pissed at my administration.

2282
02:11:43,320 --> 02:11:45,100
I was pissed at everybody.

2283
02:11:45,100 --> 02:11:49,840
But now I'm like, I'm thankful it was me that day that quite honestly had the privilege

2284
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:52,320
to bring her up out of that closet.

2285
02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:53,960
That was a privilege for me.

2286
02:11:53,960 --> 02:12:03,300
So to be able to have that different perspective is so fucking freeing for your mind.

2287
02:12:03,300 --> 02:12:05,500
And that's what I want for everybody else.

2288
02:12:05,500 --> 02:12:07,360
That's why I do what I do.

2289
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:11,280
Instead of saying why me, say why and change your perspective.

2290
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:13,640
What are you going to learn from this today?

2291
02:12:13,640 --> 02:12:17,840
I went to this thing, like I said, from Boulder Crest and they had us do this, read this quote

2292
02:12:17,840 --> 02:12:21,920
one day from Rumi and I won't be able to quote it.

2293
02:12:21,920 --> 02:12:23,940
So don't think that I'm paraphrasing.

2294
02:12:23,940 --> 02:12:30,120
But in essence, it says, imagine every morning you wake up and there's a knock on the door.

2295
02:12:30,120 --> 02:12:32,560
You open the door, it may be something good.

2296
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:34,200
It may be something bad.

2297
02:12:34,200 --> 02:12:40,160
But if you can almost with a little chuckle, welcome whatever that is and bring them in

2298
02:12:40,160 --> 02:12:45,040
and take the perspective of what am I going to learn from this?

2299
02:12:45,040 --> 02:12:49,280
Just think about how every single day could be completely different if we tackled it in

2300
02:12:49,280 --> 02:12:51,840
that way.

2301
02:12:51,840 --> 02:12:57,700
Going back to being a prisoner of your mind, one of the other common denominators that really

2302
02:12:57,700 --> 02:13:01,800
bubbled up and it's so interesting because if you look at the way most of us viewed suicide

2303
02:13:01,800 --> 02:13:04,880
back in the day, it's selfish.

2304
02:13:04,880 --> 02:13:05,880
How could they?

2305
02:13:05,880 --> 02:13:10,440
You go think about your kids, your family, what a coward.

2306
02:13:10,440 --> 02:13:14,040
And then you listen to these people who, as I said, were almost there, were there but

2307
02:13:14,040 --> 02:13:18,840
didn't pull the trigger or did pull the trigger, did jump off the Golden Gate Bridge and they're

2308
02:13:18,840 --> 02:13:21,440
here to tell the tale.

2309
02:13:21,440 --> 02:13:25,360
95 plus percent said the same thing.

2310
02:13:25,360 --> 02:13:26,920
They wanted the suffering to end.

2311
02:13:26,920 --> 02:13:33,040
But the other side was they truly believe that they were a burden to the people that

2312
02:13:33,040 --> 02:13:34,040
they loved.

2313
02:13:34,040 --> 02:13:35,980
And then you never hear this talked about.

2314
02:13:35,980 --> 02:13:42,600
So if you think about that, if your wiring has become so miswired, if your brain chemistry

2315
02:13:42,600 --> 02:13:47,360
is so off through all the things, childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, organizational

2316
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:52,520
betrayal, psychiatric meds, alcohol, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, there's that perfect

2317
02:13:52,520 --> 02:13:53,520
storm.

2318
02:13:53,520 --> 02:13:55,520
And that is now your reality.

2319
02:13:55,520 --> 02:14:01,520
And you believe that if you take your own life, you will finally relieve your children

2320
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:06,380
and your wife or your husband of the pain you've been putting on them.

2321
02:14:06,380 --> 02:14:11,480
That then makes suicide courageous and selfless to that person at that point.

2322
02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:14,920
When you add in the fact that you've got a profession where we swore to die for complete

2323
02:14:14,920 --> 02:14:19,280
strangers, we'll gladly die for the people that we adore.

2324
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:22,500
I don't think that's spoken about enough.

2325
02:14:22,500 --> 02:14:25,960
Did you have any element of that as you were going through your darkness?

2326
02:14:25,960 --> 02:14:26,960
Absolutely.

2327
02:14:26,960 --> 02:14:27,960
Because you do.

2328
02:14:27,960 --> 02:14:28,960
You feel like you're a burden.

2329
02:14:28,960 --> 02:14:32,460
And we do my presentations, we do a big section on suicide.

2330
02:14:32,460 --> 02:14:34,740
And that is one of the things we talk about.

2331
02:14:34,740 --> 02:14:38,680
And I even show a video from a good friend of mine and he is willing to share about his

2332
02:14:38,680 --> 02:14:40,400
suicidal ideations.

2333
02:14:40,400 --> 02:14:44,080
And he quite frankly, every single day felt like my family hates me.

2334
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:47,020
I'm causing them problems because I'm so messed up.

2335
02:14:47,020 --> 02:14:53,160
And then if you can get really philosophical and think about from the day one of the academy,

2336
02:14:53,160 --> 02:14:55,000
you are taught to be a problem solver.

2337
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:59,360
You are taught to handle if someone's going through a rough time, guess what we're doing?

2338
02:14:59,360 --> 02:15:01,200
We're going to help you get through that rough time.

2339
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:04,560
Well, what happens when you're the rough time?

2340
02:15:04,560 --> 02:15:09,800
You're the ones like you said, your family, you seem to be causing them all this distress.

2341
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:11,200
Okay, well, I know what to do.

2342
02:15:11,200 --> 02:15:13,040
I eliminate the problem.

2343
02:15:13,040 --> 02:15:14,560
And Travis is the problem.

2344
02:15:14,560 --> 02:15:17,160
So if you eliminate that, they're going to be much better off.

2345
02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:22,320
So the weirdness of what goes on in your head, I don't want to leave my family, but I'm causing

2346
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:23,320
them problems.

2347
02:15:23,320 --> 02:15:25,480
So they're going to be better off if I do exit.

2348
02:15:25,480 --> 02:15:29,160
So yeah, that is that is one of the number one things talked about.

2349
02:15:29,160 --> 02:15:32,440
And again, I have the privilege of working with three therapists, but they all tell me

2350
02:15:32,440 --> 02:15:37,080
when they're going over suicidal ideations, it all comes down to that, especially with

2351
02:15:37,080 --> 02:15:40,120
first responders, that they just feel like this burden.

2352
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:43,000
Well, I'm going to take this burden away from my family.

2353
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:44,000
This will be a good thing.

2354
02:15:44,000 --> 02:15:45,000
Yeah.

2355
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:49,240
And I think that just needs to be front and center in the posters and the conversation

2356
02:15:49,240 --> 02:15:51,400
is like, oh, my door's always open.

2357
02:15:51,400 --> 02:15:52,400
Call me.

2358
02:15:52,400 --> 02:15:53,400
There's a number on the pin board.

2359
02:15:53,400 --> 02:15:54,400
Clearly, that doesn't work.

2360
02:15:54,400 --> 02:16:00,200
I mean, I'm getting Rudy Reyes on in a few days because the recon community is losing

2361
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:02,680
brother after brother after brother and that.

2362
02:16:02,680 --> 02:16:05,280
So I think this is one of the missing pieces.

2363
02:16:05,280 --> 02:16:10,480
The other thing to put some, you know, some optimism in it is you've talked about post

2364
02:16:10,480 --> 02:16:12,360
traumatic growth quite a lot.

2365
02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:17,120
I think in the first responder profession, the mental health conversation kind of tripped

2366
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:18,920
over the hurdle of stigma.

2367
02:16:18,920 --> 02:16:25,680
Okay, we, you know, we we acknowledge that we can have PTSD as well or, you know, moral

2368
02:16:25,680 --> 02:16:29,360
injury or whatever you kind of want to term whatever that you've got.

2369
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:32,280
However, I feel like we're left with this.

2370
02:16:32,280 --> 02:16:34,780
So yeah, I live with my PTSD now and I've got my dog.

2371
02:16:34,780 --> 02:16:35,780
This is Steve.

2372
02:16:35,780 --> 02:16:39,720
He comes with me on the plane, you know, and it's not a very inspiring conversation at

2373
02:16:39,720 --> 02:16:40,720
all.

2374
02:16:40,720 --> 02:16:43,640
And some people may never get past there and that maybe they're just to the point where

2375
02:16:43,640 --> 02:16:44,640
that's their best.

2376
02:16:44,640 --> 02:16:48,020
And I'm not talking ill of that at all.

2377
02:16:48,020 --> 02:16:54,000
But where I feel this conversation is extremely exciting is that post traumatic growth.

2378
02:16:54,000 --> 02:16:56,360
And that's where we talked about resilience earlier.

2379
02:16:56,360 --> 02:16:58,420
I feel like that's resilience.

2380
02:16:58,420 --> 02:17:01,600
Resilience is going through struggles and coming out the other end.

2381
02:17:01,600 --> 02:17:05,240
And especially with the naysayers, whether if you just frame it as performance, like

2382
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:11,000
you'd be a more, you know, effective operator or, you know, firefighter or a paramedic.

2383
02:17:11,000 --> 02:17:14,520
Or if you look at it as actually through the mental health conversation.

2384
02:17:14,520 --> 02:17:19,480
To me, once you've gone through that crucible and you found that toolbox, whether it's EMDR

2385
02:17:19,480 --> 02:17:26,320
or psychedelics or, you know, llamas, whatever your thing is, or combination of things is,

2386
02:17:26,320 --> 02:17:29,480
there is a better version of you on the other side.

2387
02:17:29,480 --> 02:17:32,980
And you become then a beacon of hope for other people.

2388
02:17:32,980 --> 02:17:36,940
And they start coming out the woodwork going, I've been having the same problems.

2389
02:17:36,940 --> 02:17:38,480
How did you get through it?

2390
02:17:38,480 --> 02:17:39,480
100%.

2391
02:17:39,480 --> 02:17:47,840
And, you know, I've always realized that there is power in sharing your story.

2392
02:17:47,840 --> 02:17:52,320
But I didn't, I didn't realize that that was actually the first step in towards growth

2393
02:17:52,320 --> 02:17:57,480
because I found first time I ever shared my story is when I was leaving the, I would decide

2394
02:17:57,480 --> 02:17:58,680
I was going to leave the profession.

2395
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:01,120
I went and told my team, I needed to tell them personally.

2396
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:05,240
It was a very, you know, like an hour long, I got with them.

2397
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:10,600
And by me sharing my story, a couple other guys came up and they're like, holy shit,

2398
02:18:10,600 --> 02:18:13,480
Travis, like, I've been feeling like that stuff forever.

2399
02:18:13,480 --> 02:18:15,240
I thought I was the only one.

2400
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:20,280
And so that's the first step because now if we know that, Hey, it's not just Travis that

2401
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:23,260
are having these thoughts that have dealt with these things.

2402
02:18:23,260 --> 02:18:26,460
It's this, this and this, these people I work with all the time.

2403
02:18:26,460 --> 02:18:32,200
Now you have almost a camaraderie in that tribe of like, okay, we've experienced some

2404
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:37,120
really shitty things, but now what do we do?

2405
02:18:37,120 --> 02:18:42,000
Now we look at like, okay, you know, you can sit around and Travis could say, I could still

2406
02:18:42,000 --> 02:18:48,200
be sitting here today, James and wallowing in, you know, the January day in 2016 of,

2407
02:18:48,200 --> 02:18:49,880
you know, cursing that day.

2408
02:18:49,880 --> 02:18:50,880
And that was horrible.

2409
02:18:50,880 --> 02:18:53,600
And I can't believe this happened to me.

2410
02:18:53,600 --> 02:18:58,800
Or I can do the steps I need to get myself well, which I did.

2411
02:18:58,800 --> 02:19:02,880
And then understand it's a daily journey and start understanding.

2412
02:19:02,880 --> 02:19:06,120
No, those experiences made me who I am today.

2413
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:10,240
Just like we talked about the childhood, I used to curse my dad all the time, but now

2414
02:19:10,240 --> 02:19:14,840
I'm like, okay, with my dad, you know, there were some things I did learn good from him.

2415
02:19:14,840 --> 02:19:17,760
I also things that he didn't do correctly.

2416
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:20,960
I learned from that as well, because I don't want to be like that.

2417
02:19:20,960 --> 02:19:23,880
And so that is literally the post-traumatic growth.

2418
02:19:23,880 --> 02:19:30,440
And every time, if you go through these refining of what goes on mentally, now you are just

2419
02:19:30,440 --> 02:19:32,880
that much stronger on the other side.

2420
02:19:32,880 --> 02:19:37,760
And so yeah, the post-traumatic growth, I agree it's exciting because yeah, like Mesa

2421
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:41,240
PD, my old organization has adopted this.

2422
02:19:41,240 --> 02:19:45,960
It's a whole program called struggle well, and they are putting in the academy and all

2423
02:19:45,960 --> 02:19:47,160
these things.

2424
02:19:47,160 --> 02:19:49,400
It's through Boulder Crest foundation.

2425
02:19:49,400 --> 02:19:54,120
And I'm talking, James, like, because this is always my thing.

2426
02:19:54,120 --> 02:19:59,840
I want to talk to the heavy hitters in the department, meaning the people who have been

2427
02:19:59,840 --> 02:20:04,360
in the trenches and seen a lot of stuff and like, what do you think of this?

2428
02:20:04,360 --> 02:20:09,280
And every report I'm getting, Travis, I don't know what's happening, but this post-traumatic

2429
02:20:09,280 --> 02:20:11,440
growth stuff, there's something to it.

2430
02:20:11,440 --> 02:20:16,040
Meaning if we can change our perspective, you know, and I don't ever want to minimize

2431
02:20:16,040 --> 02:20:18,120
our organizations need to do better.

2432
02:20:18,120 --> 02:20:22,960
That's what I'm saying, you know, but we're providing them with a program to understand

2433
02:20:22,960 --> 02:20:27,560
use that horrible experience as a growth period and just how much stronger we'll be.

2434
02:20:27,560 --> 02:20:31,380
Number one, for you individually, number two, for your families.

2435
02:20:31,380 --> 02:20:34,280
And then finally, the organization, I agree with you.

2436
02:20:34,280 --> 02:20:36,280
It's exciting and I love it.

2437
02:20:36,280 --> 02:20:39,080
I just, I want to talk about it more.

2438
02:20:39,080 --> 02:20:40,080
Yeah.

2439
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:41,080
Excellent.

2440
02:20:41,080 --> 02:20:44,560
We, I've heard you talking about EMDR and what I've, again, what I'm getting from a

2441
02:20:44,560 --> 02:20:49,920
lot of these stories is that EMDR is a great tool for an acute event to kind of, you know,

2442
02:20:49,920 --> 02:20:52,480
down-regulate your response to that.

2443
02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:55,720
But obviously there's the death by a thousand cuts element as well.

2444
02:20:55,720 --> 02:20:59,880
So as you started collecting the tools in your toolbox, what are some of the things

2445
02:20:59,880 --> 02:21:02,080
that are in that basket for you now?

2446
02:21:02,080 --> 02:21:03,520
Yeah, for sure.

2447
02:21:03,520 --> 02:21:12,720
So just a mindfulness, something that I've toyed around with, but I have not, you know,

2448
02:21:12,720 --> 02:21:17,160
this is again, I'm growing every day, but every day I set my intention.

2449
02:21:17,160 --> 02:21:18,980
What is my intention for the day?

2450
02:21:18,980 --> 02:21:22,400
Number two, I list something that I'm thankful for.

2451
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:28,200
And number three, I say a positive affirmation about Travis and I'm journaling it all because

2452
02:21:28,200 --> 02:21:34,040
man, it's so funny when I talk about this stuff, because I think about Travis from prior

2453
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:40,160
all this stuff happened, I would be making fun of Travis right now, but I'm telling you,

2454
02:21:40,160 --> 02:21:44,840
it is amazing what we can do to our minds when we change that perspective and place

2455
02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:47,540
expectation about what's going to be happening.

2456
02:21:47,540 --> 02:21:53,200
And then taking the, having a level of gratitude, you know, there, you can look outside, you

2457
02:21:53,200 --> 02:21:54,640
can look at your circumstances.

2458
02:21:54,640 --> 02:21:59,440
And of course we can all pick out things that says, you know, this is horrible or that I

2459
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:01,480
can't believe I had to go through it.

2460
02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:06,120
Or you can focus on the things to be grateful for, even if it's all you can figure out

2461
02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:11,320
today is I'm grateful I can go to my faucet over here and get drinking water when so much

2462
02:22:11,320 --> 02:22:13,960
of the world can't do that.

2463
02:22:13,960 --> 02:22:16,440
Or you know, thankful for what goes on in your family.

2464
02:22:16,440 --> 02:22:21,640
And then the positive affirmation I know for Travis, I'm my own worst enemy.

2465
02:22:21,640 --> 02:22:27,240
I am up in this head every single day, you know, whether you're a piece of shit or you

2466
02:22:27,240 --> 02:22:29,680
failed at that, how could you have missed that?

2467
02:22:29,680 --> 02:22:34,760
But no, I'm going to cite some things that I know Travis, you know, I'm proud of, and

2468
02:22:34,760 --> 02:22:36,260
I'm going to put that down.

2469
02:22:36,260 --> 02:22:39,040
And then meditation, man, meditation is huge.

2470
02:22:39,040 --> 02:22:44,840
Again, I'm not, I'm not an hour long meditation guy, but like a 1520 minute thing where you

2471
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:48,040
feel a reset needs to take place.

2472
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:49,040
It is a great thing.

2473
02:22:49,040 --> 02:22:51,840
And then breathing, four, seven, eight breathing.

2474
02:22:51,840 --> 02:22:57,000
I do that when I feel these periods of just ultimate, like, I don't know what's going

2475
02:22:57,000 --> 02:22:58,000
on the stress.

2476
02:22:58,000 --> 02:23:01,320
Okay, just calm down for a second.

2477
02:23:01,320 --> 02:23:07,100
And then, you know, I think man, the daily practice, so through EMDR and through a lot

2478
02:23:07,100 --> 02:23:12,040
of therapy that I did, remember how I told you about the airport where I sense myself

2479
02:23:12,040 --> 02:23:17,280
like something's up before the old Travis, I would just, I would have moved towards the

2480
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:20,740
reaction and I would have just, I wouldn't have paid attention.

2481
02:23:20,740 --> 02:23:24,760
But now as I become more aware of what's going on in my body, I wake up in the morning.

2482
02:23:24,760 --> 02:23:29,840
Okay, how do I feel, you know, maybe get a little sunshine, look at the sunrise, those

2483
02:23:29,840 --> 02:23:32,200
types of things, set those intentions.

2484
02:23:32,200 --> 02:23:33,880
How am I feeling today?

2485
02:23:33,880 --> 02:23:38,280
And it can guide you with how you tackle every part of your life.

2486
02:23:38,280 --> 02:23:39,280
Beautiful.

2487
02:23:39,280 --> 02:23:41,520
Well, I want to move to some closing questions.

2488
02:23:41,520 --> 02:23:45,960
We've been chatting for almost two and a half hours, so I want to be mindful of your time.

2489
02:23:45,960 --> 02:23:50,240
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend

2490
02:23:50,240 --> 02:23:55,760
it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?

2491
02:23:55,760 --> 02:24:04,760
Well, man, I'm going to throw a bunch of new stuff onto you, but the, I just started and

2492
02:24:04,760 --> 02:24:10,520
I'm halfway through it and I love it, but the Edith Eger book, The Choice, that is really

2493
02:24:10,520 --> 02:24:11,520
good.

2494
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:12,520
I had her on the show.

2495
02:24:12,520 --> 02:24:13,520
She was incredible.

2496
02:24:13,520 --> 02:24:14,520
You did?

2497
02:24:14,520 --> 02:24:15,520
Oh my goodness.

2498
02:24:15,520 --> 02:24:20,080
Look that, man, I'm just captivated by that stuff.

2499
02:24:20,080 --> 02:24:25,240
I like for fiction stuff, just to say I'm really into the Jack Carr books.

2500
02:24:25,240 --> 02:24:31,040
This whole series, I just, his writing style, it just pulls me in and I'm a gear guy, so

2501
02:24:31,040 --> 02:24:32,040
I like how he does.

2502
02:24:32,040 --> 02:24:33,360
So those two things.

2503
02:24:33,360 --> 02:24:39,920
And then, yeah, I guess those are the two big ones I would recommend right now for people.

2504
02:24:39,920 --> 02:24:41,240
Definitely can help.

2505
02:24:41,240 --> 02:24:42,240
Beautiful.

2506
02:24:42,240 --> 02:24:43,240
Yeah.

2507
02:24:43,240 --> 02:24:47,640
Edith, I know it was episode 500 because it was a big milestone number and I'm like, who

2508
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:49,760
better to have on the show than Edith?

2509
02:24:49,760 --> 02:24:51,980
I mean, that's just incredible.

2510
02:24:51,980 --> 02:24:53,720
And then Jack's been on a couple of times too.

2511
02:24:53,720 --> 02:24:54,720
Oh, seriously.

2512
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:55,720
All right.

2513
02:24:55,720 --> 02:24:56,720
Yeah.

2514
02:24:56,720 --> 02:24:57,720
Love that.

2515
02:24:57,720 --> 02:24:58,720
Yeah.

2516
02:24:58,720 --> 02:24:59,720
Absolutely.

2517
02:24:59,720 --> 02:25:00,720
All right.

2518
02:25:00,720 --> 02:25:01,720
Well then what about films and documentaries?

2519
02:25:01,720 --> 02:25:02,720
Any of those that you love?

2520
02:25:02,720 --> 02:25:03,720
Films and documentaries.

2521
02:25:03,720 --> 02:25:06,480
I'm not a big, my wife and I laugh about this a lot of time.

2522
02:25:06,480 --> 02:25:08,080
I don't watch a lot of movies.

2523
02:25:08,080 --> 02:25:14,640
I don't want to get stupid, but yeah, I mean, I'm really just for, I love Top Gun.

2524
02:25:14,640 --> 02:25:15,880
How dumb that may be.

2525
02:25:15,880 --> 02:25:16,880
I don't know.

2526
02:25:16,880 --> 02:25:18,920
The two, but yeah.

2527
02:25:18,920 --> 02:25:19,920
Yeah.

2528
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:23,960
I'm not a big documentary guy, so I guess I don't even have a suggestion on that.

2529
02:25:23,960 --> 02:25:29,680
It's amazing how many pilots have had on the show that Top Gun was absolutely the motivator.

2530
02:25:29,680 --> 02:25:30,680
So it was a good one.

2531
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:31,680
All right.

2532
02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:37,720
Well, the next question, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast

2533
02:25:37,720 --> 02:25:42,200
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

2534
02:25:42,200 --> 02:25:43,640
world?

2535
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:50,160
I would say, I think since you seem to be excited about the struggle well stuff, someone

2536
02:25:50,160 --> 02:25:56,400
from Boulder Crest Foundation that is, because they started with a veteran community and

2537
02:25:56,400 --> 02:26:01,460
now they're big in the first responders and just talk about how important that's been

2538
02:26:01,460 --> 02:26:07,820
for our first responders and veterans, I guess, embracing the struggle well concept, post

2539
02:26:07,820 --> 02:26:11,240
traumatic growth and what that means to them.

2540
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:12,580
I've had it mentioned a lot.

2541
02:26:12,580 --> 02:26:15,960
So after looking, I don't think I've had, I think I've had people have gone through

2542
02:26:15,960 --> 02:26:16,960
it.

2543
02:26:16,960 --> 02:26:19,160
I'm almost certain I have obviously you're one of them, but I don't know if I've had

2544
02:26:19,160 --> 02:26:20,880
anyone from there specifically.

2545
02:26:20,880 --> 02:26:24,160
So I have to look, so happens when you got a thousand people I've said before, like,

2546
02:26:24,160 --> 02:26:25,480
I need to get someone on there.

2547
02:26:25,480 --> 02:26:27,320
Like I was on your fucking show, idiot.

2548
02:26:27,320 --> 02:26:28,320
Yeah.

2549
02:26:28,320 --> 02:26:32,800
Like a good buddy of mine that I've recently got to know, but he's the vice president.

2550
02:26:32,800 --> 02:26:34,520
Joe Wood is his name.

2551
02:26:34,520 --> 02:26:36,360
So he's, he's big into it.

2552
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:41,720
So yeah, I think I've been seeing, you know, and again, I don't ever, I like to experience

2553
02:26:41,720 --> 02:26:42,720
things myself.

2554
02:26:42,720 --> 02:26:45,480
And then I also then, okay, Travis experienced this.

2555
02:26:45,480 --> 02:26:50,000
I've been doing my calls now to people that have went through and it's the same across

2556
02:26:50,000 --> 02:26:52,600
the board, like Travis, this is life changing.

2557
02:26:52,600 --> 02:26:55,760
I've been to all those bullshit training and this is definitely the best.

2558
02:26:55,760 --> 02:26:58,100
So they're definitely onto something.

2559
02:26:58,100 --> 02:27:00,640
So that should be explored more.

2560
02:27:00,640 --> 02:27:01,640
Excellent.

2561
02:27:01,640 --> 02:27:02,640
All right.

2562
02:27:02,640 --> 02:27:06,560
Well then one last question before we go to where people can find you and that she, before

2563
02:27:06,560 --> 02:27:08,360
I do that, I totally skipped my arena.

2564
02:27:08,360 --> 02:27:12,360
So before I jumped into the closing questions, I meant to jump into that first.

2565
02:27:12,360 --> 02:27:17,720
So you, you found all these tools now, you know, obviously we're in an age where social

2566
02:27:17,720 --> 02:27:24,580
media and the internet can be absolutely horrendous or it can be a beautiful healing community.

2567
02:27:24,580 --> 02:27:29,160
What made you decide to, you know, create a platform and tell everyone about what they

2568
02:27:29,160 --> 02:27:30,640
can find on there?

2569
02:27:30,640 --> 02:27:31,640
Man.

2570
02:27:31,640 --> 02:27:32,640
Yeah.

2571
02:27:32,640 --> 02:27:35,280
You know, a lot of it has to do with that first podcast with Andy stump.

2572
02:27:35,280 --> 02:27:38,300
I had been actually in Montana.

2573
02:27:38,300 --> 02:27:41,860
When I was moving up to Montana, someone asked me to come speak at a tactical leadership

2574
02:27:41,860 --> 02:27:46,120
conference in the state to just do one of my debriefs where we go over like a hostage

2575
02:27:46,120 --> 02:27:48,040
rescue or something that I had done.

2576
02:27:48,040 --> 02:27:49,280
And I agreed to do it.

2577
02:27:49,280 --> 02:27:55,160
But then as I started thinking, I said, well, maybe I wonder if they would let me talk about

2578
02:27:55,160 --> 02:27:59,120
my experiences with mental health and literally I don't want you to become Travis.

2579
02:27:59,120 --> 02:28:00,400
This is how I would have done it differently.

2580
02:28:00,400 --> 02:28:02,760
And these are the things I think could work for you.

2581
02:28:02,760 --> 02:28:04,280
And so they agreed to it.

2582
02:28:04,280 --> 02:28:07,200
And someone had heard me speak there that was friends with Andy.

2583
02:28:07,200 --> 02:28:09,360
And so Andy, you know, we got connected.

2584
02:28:09,360 --> 02:28:10,360
He's texting me.

2585
02:28:10,360 --> 02:28:12,340
I don't know who you are, but someone says I should have you on.

2586
02:28:12,340 --> 02:28:13,800
So I trust them.

2587
02:28:13,800 --> 02:28:14,800
Let's do it.

2588
02:28:14,800 --> 02:28:22,280
And so as that was going on, I honestly, man, just through a word of mouth, I do have that,

2589
02:28:22,280 --> 02:28:26,000
you know, I have a social media and not not a very big presence, but just something on

2590
02:28:26,000 --> 02:28:27,000
Instagram.

2591
02:28:27,000 --> 02:28:30,640
But all the events that I've ever done and I've probably I've been doing this for two

2592
02:28:30,640 --> 02:28:32,040
and a half years.

2593
02:28:32,040 --> 02:28:35,640
We have traveled from coast to coast and a bunch of stuff in Montana.

2594
02:28:35,640 --> 02:28:40,000
I don't even know how many events, probably over 60 events now to where we go and speak

2595
02:28:40,000 --> 02:28:42,080
it is just word of mouth.

2596
02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:45,920
I don't seek out departments, but we will.

2597
02:28:45,920 --> 02:28:50,040
Someone will hear about me and they'll ask us to do a proposal to come and speak at their

2598
02:28:50,040 --> 02:28:51,820
agency or to conference.

2599
02:28:51,820 --> 02:28:52,820
And that's what's happened.

2600
02:28:52,820 --> 02:28:55,640
So I go through and it's kind of a unique thing.

2601
02:28:55,640 --> 02:28:59,680
I travel with outside of the state of Montana.

2602
02:28:59,680 --> 02:29:02,360
I travel with my former therapist from Arizona.

2603
02:29:02,360 --> 02:29:08,720
And as I tell my story, the culturally competent clinician, she gives her side of it about

2604
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:12,640
explaining why Travis was feeling these things, what we could do to prevent it.

2605
02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:15,360
If you're at that point, you know, we talk about suicide and all that.

2606
02:29:15,360 --> 02:29:19,920
And then in Montana, I have two therapists that I've become really close with that they

2607
02:29:19,920 --> 02:29:22,680
do the same role, you know, talking about things.

2608
02:29:22,680 --> 02:29:25,200
So yeah, that's what I do now.

2609
02:29:25,200 --> 02:29:29,680
And just to share my story and like we're getting, you know, we're busier than ever.

2610
02:29:29,680 --> 02:29:32,480
And then, you know, I do podcasts when I can.

2611
02:29:32,480 --> 02:29:37,000
But just trying to let people know they're not alone, man, and just hopefully we can

2612
02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:41,160
change this culture and be part of a lasting change.

2613
02:29:41,160 --> 02:29:44,680
And tell me about the powerful significance of the logo.

2614
02:29:44,680 --> 02:29:45,680
Yeah.

2615
02:29:45,680 --> 02:29:50,000
So that wolf, my wife actually is a stained glass artist.

2616
02:29:50,000 --> 02:29:54,200
If people don't know that it's like an old school thing, but she's really good at it.

2617
02:29:54,200 --> 02:29:58,520
And she created, you know, a picture of a wolf.

2618
02:29:58,520 --> 02:29:59,680
And I'm very partial to wolves.

2619
02:29:59,680 --> 02:30:04,520
I just think it's an awesome species, just the resiliency, their ability to fight, their

2620
02:30:04,520 --> 02:30:07,480
ability to stay together as a group.

2621
02:30:07,480 --> 02:30:08,900
And so I was partial to that.

2622
02:30:08,900 --> 02:30:15,000
And then myself, my wife, and then my former therapist, we thought as a good tribute in

2623
02:30:15,000 --> 02:30:17,800
the right eye of this, of my logo is Ruby.

2624
02:30:17,800 --> 02:30:19,400
It's the color Ruby.

2625
02:30:19,400 --> 02:30:23,000
And that's to honor Ruby for her part in this.

2626
02:30:23,000 --> 02:30:24,000
Beautiful.

2627
02:30:24,000 --> 02:30:25,400
I've read that obviously on the site.

2628
02:30:25,400 --> 02:30:26,400
I thought that was amazing.

2629
02:30:26,400 --> 02:30:28,400
Yeah, it's awesome, man.

2630
02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:29,400
All right.

2631
02:30:29,400 --> 02:30:33,680
So it gets a question that I meant to before I forgot to talk about that.

2632
02:30:33,680 --> 02:30:35,840
What do you do to decompress?

2633
02:30:35,840 --> 02:30:36,840
What do I do?

2634
02:30:36,840 --> 02:30:40,920
So still fitness is a big part of my life.

2635
02:30:40,920 --> 02:30:43,120
You know, I pretty much, you know, five, six days a week.

2636
02:30:43,120 --> 02:30:44,120
I do not miss that.

2637
02:30:44,120 --> 02:30:46,120
We have a home gym now because we live up in the mountains.

2638
02:30:46,120 --> 02:30:47,840
So, so that's kind of nice.

2639
02:30:47,840 --> 02:30:51,960
And then I am very fortunate to be up in the mountains.

2640
02:30:51,960 --> 02:30:56,400
So walking in the mountains, walking the dog and that kind of stuff when I need a break

2641
02:30:56,400 --> 02:30:57,760
is very good.

2642
02:30:57,760 --> 02:31:03,440
And then I am trying to get very better because I've recently found this out with just

2643
02:31:03,440 --> 02:31:08,920
disconnecting for a little bit and just just my wife and I just being together and enjoying

2644
02:31:08,920 --> 02:31:09,920
family time.

2645
02:31:09,920 --> 02:31:12,040
So very important to me.

2646
02:31:12,040 --> 02:31:16,720
And I do a lot of reflection, man, not to sound hokey or anything, but just a lot of

2647
02:31:16,720 --> 02:31:20,080
reflection for the moment that I'm in.

2648
02:31:20,080 --> 02:31:24,920
Just enjoying where I am, enjoying where I came from and enjoying about, you know, where

2649
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:25,920
we're going.

2650
02:31:25,920 --> 02:31:29,400
Because I think it's I definitely was horrible about being so busy.

2651
02:31:29,400 --> 02:31:31,520
I never took the time to do things like that.

2652
02:31:31,520 --> 02:31:34,480
And I'm just trying to be very intentional about that.

2653
02:31:34,480 --> 02:31:35,480
Absolutely.

2654
02:31:35,480 --> 02:31:36,800
Yeah, that's the crazy thing.

2655
02:31:36,800 --> 02:31:41,280
I mean, you think about what we do in, you know, mine was 14 years in uniform.

2656
02:31:41,280 --> 02:31:44,200
Yours a lot longer, but there's a lot to reflect on.

2657
02:31:44,200 --> 02:31:45,200
You know what I mean?

2658
02:31:45,200 --> 02:31:49,080
When you finally come out the other end, it's like you've been through an absolute, you

2659
02:31:49,080 --> 02:31:50,440
know, shit storm.

2660
02:31:50,440 --> 02:31:55,400
So I think this is the other problem with with us is, you know, law enforcement will

2661
02:31:55,400 --> 02:31:58,120
come out and be like, oh, I guess I'll go work in security.

2662
02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:01,480
Firefighters will come out and be, oh, I guess I'll go teach at the fire academy now.

2663
02:32:01,480 --> 02:32:07,080
Other than the amazing lens that we have on society, you know, in this conversation about,

2664
02:32:07,080 --> 02:32:10,360
you know, is drug prohibition working and, you know, the way that we look at homelessness

2665
02:32:10,360 --> 02:32:11,720
and all these things.

2666
02:32:11,720 --> 02:32:16,480
I wish that that firefighters and police officers had more of a voice to talk about what we

2667
02:32:16,480 --> 02:32:20,040
see, not just so much what we do, but what we see.

2668
02:32:20,040 --> 02:32:23,920
Because as you know, we get into election seasons, all these things are being used as

2669
02:32:23,920 --> 02:32:25,240
political pawns.

2670
02:32:25,240 --> 02:32:28,680
And I think most of us are standing there going, what the fuck are you talking about?

2671
02:32:28,680 --> 02:32:32,840
That's not how this is or that is or, you know, no, the city isn't getting safer.

2672
02:32:32,840 --> 02:32:36,640
I mean, we watch more and more people go to the morgue this month than, you know, than

2673
02:32:36,640 --> 02:32:37,640
ever.

2674
02:32:37,640 --> 02:32:39,200
So I think, you know, there's a lot that we see.

2675
02:32:39,200 --> 02:32:44,120
And therefore, to your point, there's a lot to kind of process and reflect on, you know,

2676
02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:48,520
aside from obviously trying to be present with our family, just that I mean, it's 10,

2677
02:32:48,520 --> 02:32:54,600
20, 30 years of stuff to now kind of try and, you know, put in certain shelves after you

2678
02:32:54,600 --> 02:32:56,600
transition out of the career.

2679
02:32:56,600 --> 02:32:57,600
Agreed.

2680
02:32:57,600 --> 02:32:58,600
Yeah.

2681
02:32:58,600 --> 02:32:59,600
All right.

2682
02:32:59,600 --> 02:33:03,000
So then as far as online, where are the best places to find you, whether it's websites

2683
02:33:03,000 --> 02:33:04,000
or social media?

2684
02:33:04,000 --> 02:33:05,000
Yeah.

2685
02:33:05,000 --> 02:33:10,520
So my website is my arena LLC.com and then social media, the Instagram is the best way.

2686
02:33:10,520 --> 02:33:13,920
It's my underscore dot arena.

2687
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:18,160
So yeah, and I just always commit to everyone.

2688
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:21,880
You can email me, you can send me a message on Instagram.

2689
02:33:21,880 --> 02:33:27,160
One I love that I'm still be able to, I will connect with you if you need to have a conversation.

2690
02:33:27,160 --> 02:33:33,120
If you have questions, I make it a very important point that I just connect with people and

2691
02:33:33,120 --> 02:33:36,960
they reach out because sometimes they don't feel comfortable coming to their friends or

2692
02:33:36,960 --> 02:33:40,200
organization and sometimes we're the only people they have.

2693
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:42,520
And just I just have made a commitment.

2694
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:46,760
And that's it's honestly, it's a privilege because I've been able to walk along some

2695
02:33:46,760 --> 02:33:51,000
side some people throughout the United States that have just been in a really rough time

2696
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:54,680
and get them, you know, going down the path that they need, whether it's they had never

2697
02:33:54,680 --> 02:33:58,920
heard about EMDR or never knew or what do you mean a culturally competent therapist

2698
02:33:58,920 --> 02:34:03,520
and just, you know, get these messages back like, man, this changed my life, my family.

2699
02:34:03,520 --> 02:34:05,120
We were about on the brink of divorce.

2700
02:34:05,120 --> 02:34:06,800
I'm staying with my wife.

2701
02:34:06,800 --> 02:34:09,480
You know, I'm happier now, whatever those things.

2702
02:34:09,480 --> 02:34:11,480
And that's, that's what I'm committing to.

2703
02:34:11,480 --> 02:34:13,480
So just be there for people.

2704
02:34:13,480 --> 02:34:14,480
Beautiful.

2705
02:34:14,480 --> 02:34:16,000
Well, I want to thank you so much.

2706
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:19,620
Like I said, we've talked for two and a half hours and it's been, you know, just such a

2707
02:34:19,620 --> 02:34:20,620
powerful conversation.

2708
02:34:20,620 --> 02:34:24,880
I mean, some of the, some of the things that you talked about and, you know, in some of

2709
02:34:24,880 --> 02:34:26,320
these conversations, we get more philosophical.

2710
02:34:26,320 --> 02:34:29,880
Sometimes people really dive into, you know, what it was like on the actual call.

2711
02:34:29,880 --> 02:34:32,960
And I think it's important for people to hear that whether you're in uniform, whether you're

2712
02:34:32,960 --> 02:34:38,020
a civilian so that you can really understand, you know, some of the cumulative traumatic

2713
02:34:38,020 --> 02:34:40,120
events that happen for a first responder.

2714
02:34:40,120 --> 02:34:44,160
But then attaching the hope, you know, the growth, the tools that you brought to this

2715
02:34:44,160 --> 02:34:46,000
conversation, I think are imperative.

2716
02:34:46,000 --> 02:34:50,120
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

2717
02:34:50,120 --> 02:34:51,960
Behind the Shield podcast.

2718
02:34:51,960 --> 02:34:52,960
Well thank you brother.

2719
02:34:52,960 --> 02:34:57,640
Like, yeah, cause people like you, you know, it allows us to get the message out more and

2720
02:34:57,640 --> 02:34:58,880
you obviously have a big voice.

2721
02:34:58,880 --> 02:34:59,880
So thank you so much.

2722
02:34:59,880 --> 02:35:20,920
It's been a privilege to be here and I really appreciate it.