1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,120 Welcome guys to episode 73 of Behind the Shield podcast. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,440 My name is James Gearing and this week I bring to you a very different guest than many that 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,840 we've had before, but another area that I've really wanted to explore and an area that 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,760 I am not well versed in myself. 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,360 I did not come from this background. 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,880 I am not immersed in it at all, but it's an area that I want to deconstruct because it 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,960 seems to be an area that we are not doing very well here at the moment. 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,120 And when I say here also the same model is being used in England and I'm sure many places 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,480 over the world, but the area is prisons. 10 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:40,640 Now a statistics that I found startling was back in 1970 the US had about 350,000 prisoners 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,680 incarcerated. 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,720 Today's stats are over 2.2 million prisoners. 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:52,320 So as a very low level mathematician to me that seems like we're trending in the wrong 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,320 direction. 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,240 So I wanted to reach out to a country that seems to have a very different way of doing 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,240 things. 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,240 I'm not saying that it's going to be perfectly replicated if we put it in a different country, 18 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,840 but I wanted to bring some new ideas and sow some seeds again in this area too. 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,280 And if nothing else for me, I wanted to talk to a man who was in that system. 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:19,640 So my guest is Tom Eberhardt and he is the governor of Bastogne prison just outside Oslo. 21 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,600 I saw his prison featured in a couple of documentaries and we're going to talk about this, but long 22 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,520 story short, they use the model where they remove the prisoners freedom, they're stuck 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:35,640 on this island in the middle of a body of water, but they live as a community. 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Now these are people that have committed murders and high level crimes. 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,600 These are not shoplifters and people found with weed on their person. 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:50,640 And they have had a huge success by preparing these men and women to go back into society, 27 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,440 which is something that is going to happen to 95% of prisoners. 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:02:00,840 So the theory of rehabilitating these prisoners and trying to teach them a skill, try and 29 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,760 teach them a sense of community and then set them up for success when they leave prison. 30 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,300 So when they move next door to us, they're a functioning member of society. 31 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:14,080 I think is a great concept and it makes perfect sense to me. 32 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:20,500 So Tom is a man who is running a system that does exactly that. 33 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:26,640 So we talk about the contrast between the US and Norway and he can actually talk about 34 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:32,160 that because they had exchange trips with American prisons. 35 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,640 So they have seen American prisons and then we had American governors go over to Norway 36 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:37,600 and study their system as well. 37 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,360 So a fascinating topic, two very polarizing models. 38 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,640 This isn't again a blame game. 39 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:46,880 It's just deconstructing, taking a step back and looking to see if somewhere else on this 40 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,560 beautiful planet that we inhabit is possibly doing something a little bit better. 41 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:52,840 So I'm going to stop rambling now. 42 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,080 It was a great conversation with Tom. 43 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:01,200 As I always say, please go to the show on iTunes, rate us, share the hell out of this, 44 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:06,520 get the men and women of this beautiful earth that we live in thinking, share these ideas, 45 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:12,480 share these concepts, share the mind of these incredible guests and let's try and make the 46 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,560 world a better place one little baby step at a time. 47 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:25,560 So without further ado, I introduce to you Tom Erbahard. 48 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:33,360 Enjoy. 49 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Well, welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast, Tom. 50 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,440 Firstly, where are we finding you geographically? 51 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:56,080 I'm in Norway, just beside the Oslo fjord, about 50 kilometers south of Oslo. 52 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:57,080 Okay, brilliant. 53 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,800 Now, were you actually born in Oslo yourself? 54 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:08,320 Yes, more or less on the west side of Oslo, but I moved here where I live now like 41 55 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,320 years ago. 56 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,800 Okay, and how long have you been in the prison service? 57 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,560 I think next year, I've been there for like 25 years. 58 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:19,560 25, okay. 59 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,760 All right, well, my first question is going to be, obviously, we're going to talk about 60 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:29,920 Bastogh and how it polarizes many of the prisons that we have here in America, but when you 61 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:36,200 first entered the prison system 25 years ago, what was your first prison like and was it 62 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,200 similar to Bastogh? 63 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,880 No, not at all. 64 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:47,600 The first prison I worked in was a prison called Illa Prison and Detention Center, just 65 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,360 outside Oslo. 66 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:58,480 That's a high security prison for no prisoners, but also prisoners with psychiatric problems. 67 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:05,280 So the security issues there was something completely else on what you find on Bastogh. 68 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:11,600 Okay, so because of that issue, was it more like the American and English model where 69 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,560 prisoners were behind bars as it were? 70 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,120 Yeah, more or less. 71 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,240 From Illa Prison, I moved to Oslo Prison and worked there for 15 years and that is also 72 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:28,480 a high security prison, which is built after the Philadelphia principle, which you will 73 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,920 find both in the UK and the United States. 74 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:39,200 And more or less, the prisoners are behind bars there like you will find in any European 75 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,040 and in the United States. 76 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:50,960 Okay, now before we talk about Bastogh, what are the crime rates in Norway per capita compared 77 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,920 to say England or America? 78 00:05:52,920 --> 00:06:00,360 I'm not sure of the exact figures, but I know it's quite low and much lower than you will 79 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,120 find in the United States and in the UK. 80 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:11,200 And to my knowledge, I also think that the crime rate in Norway is decreasing and has 81 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,520 been doing so for quite some years now. 82 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,720 Okay, because that's what I want to talk about as well. 83 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Another thing as well, just to educate the people listening, there is gun ownership in 84 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:22,120 Norway, isn't there? 85 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Do a lot of people own guns? 86 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,720 Yes, a lot of people own guns. 87 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:36,080 I think actually we are quite high on the statistics where they show guns per inhabitants 88 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:37,520 on the world list actually. 89 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:44,480 That is because of hunting rifles, shotguns, and also the fact that we used to have a conscript 90 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:45,480 army. 91 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:52,960 And when you were finished going to the army, a lot of people kept having their armoured 92 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:59,840 guns at home for what you call it, security reasons. 93 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:01,800 So they could deploy quickly. 94 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:02,800 Brilliant. 95 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,120 But what is your gun crime statistics like? 96 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,840 Is it high like we have here in the US because of the gun ownership? 97 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,600 No, I think it's quite low. 98 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:22,600 I think we had some issues back in the 80s where we saw that a lot of these army weapons 99 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:31,560 that people kept at home were used for robberies, killings and so on. 100 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:40,800 But after that the army took some actions and they prohibited that the ex-soldiers were 101 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,560 allowed to keep their reserve weapons at home. 102 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,640 That made the statistics drop quite rapidly. 103 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:49,640 Interesting. 104 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,760 Because obviously coming from England myself, I had a gun. 105 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,280 I had guns because I grew up on a farm. 106 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,120 So we had shotguns. 107 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,240 So there's that misconception in Europe that we don't have any guns, therefore there's 108 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:01,240 no gun crime. 109 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,360 But the reality is that there are guns that are just not, like you said, military style 110 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:08,360 weapons. 111 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:14,200 So I like to just hear it from other Europeans and see if that gun crime is still bad despite 112 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,920 the guns being out there. 113 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,400 Yeah, I think that's a fact also for Norway. 114 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:27,760 We see very little crime committed here with automatic weapons, army style weapons and 115 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:28,760 so on. 116 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:29,760 Okay, brilliant. 117 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:37,560 Now, so my next question is going to be, so you have all these prisons that are the same 118 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:39,880 model as the US, as England. 119 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,600 So the Norwegian prisons that have come across my radar, at least, are the ones that have 120 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,480 a very, very different, and Bastog is obviously is one of them where you are. 121 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,200 So can you tell me how Bastog was created? 122 00:08:53,200 --> 00:09:01,240 Bastog was created and established as a prisoner a little more than 30 years ago. 123 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,280 In Norway, we have had this prison queue. 124 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:11,200 That means that we have convicted people who have been convicted in the court, but they 125 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,800 are awaiting a free prison space. 126 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,200 So they might have been going out into society for one or two years, and then they are called 127 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,600 to a prison to do their sentence. 128 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,840 And about 30 years ago, that queue was quite high. 129 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,600 So the government, they needed new prison spaces. 130 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,800 And they had this island in the middle of the Oslo Fjord, which had been used for 70 131 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,320 years as a reformatory for young boys. 132 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,640 So they decided to convert that island into a prison, a low-security prison. 133 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,360 And they did so. 134 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:54,800 And since then, the prison has developed slowly into what it is today. 135 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,160 We're still a low-security prison, but now we have a kind of special philosophy, and 136 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:05,960 we're considered to be quite liberal when you measure us up on most of the prisons in 137 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,680 Europe and also, I think, in the United States. 138 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:09,680 Okay. 139 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:15,560 So I know the traditional philosophy is obviously confinement and punishment, really. 140 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:19,480 Obviously, they don't want the experience to be pleasurable for the prisoners. 141 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,560 And I understand that philosophy completely, but yours is very different. 142 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:28,400 So can you explain the philosophy behind Bastogh and what you are hoping the prisoners, how 143 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,640 they are going to be when they leave the prison? 144 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Yeah, I can do so. 145 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:40,960 I think, first of all, I have to start with the principles behind the prison service in 146 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:48,040 Norway, because in Norway and the Norwegian legislation, we say that the only punishing 147 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:54,800 element within the sentence is, the prison sentence is actually the loss of freedom. 148 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,120 And after we have taken the freedom away from the prisoners, we are supposed to do everything 149 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:06,120 we can together with the prisoners to make them ready for a life after prison. 150 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,840 So Bastogh, we have taken the liberty away. 151 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:12,840 They are in prison. 152 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:13,840 They are on an island. 153 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:19,320 So you can say that their freedom of movement is quite limited because it's limited more 154 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,680 or less to the boundaries of the island. 155 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:32,000 And most of the prisoners at Bastogh, they apply to go to Bastogh on the last part of 156 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,000 the sentence. 157 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,760 That could be like from six months until maybe five years. 158 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:42,320 And they spend those six months to five years on the island. 159 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:49,720 And what we try to do there is give them as much responsibilities as it's possible within 160 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,800 the boundaries of being a prison. 161 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,720 Because what we see is that in most prisons all over the world, and we have to be honest 162 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,920 that we have been locking people up since the Middle Ages in prison-like environments. 163 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,720 And we have been doing so for several hundred years. 164 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:14,920 And no one has really stopped and asked themselves what we're doing and also does it work? 165 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:24,400 And in our minds, we see that we need to give the prisoners so much training as possible 166 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:33,760 on how to be a good neighbour, a good inhabitant in a society, and also give them responsibilities 167 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:40,840 so that they are ready to take responsibility both for themselves, their family, friends, 168 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,000 their neighbourhood, when they come out in the normal Norwegian society. 169 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:53,640 And by giving them these responsibilities, we think that in the end will make the relapse 170 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:59,240 rates drop also in Norway. 171 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,640 So whenever there comes new prisoners to Bastogh, they come with our ferry and the ferry boat 172 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,280 we have is operated both by inmates and staff. 173 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,040 All the crew are inmates and the captain is the staff. 174 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,480 And they are put to shore on Bastogh and they stand there. 175 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:23,240 And on the quay we have a big sign, a poster saying, Bastogh prison, arena for developing 176 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,240 responsibility. 177 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:30,920 So it actually hits them in the face when they go ashore on the island. 178 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:41,520 And soon they will experience what we mean by an arena for developing responsibility. 179 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,240 Because we tell them from day one that the rehabilitation is their responsibility. 180 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,000 It's not ours. 181 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,720 We can help them, we can provide the tools and so on, but in the end, we can give them 182 00:13:53,720 --> 00:14:00,900 advice, but in the end they have to take the decisions because it's concerning their lives. 183 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:06,200 And what we see in a lot of especially close prisons all over the world is that the first 184 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:12,000 thing we do to prisoners is actually taking their responsibilities away. 185 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:19,080 In some prisons, the prisoners are not allowed to take much decisions on a daily basis. 186 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:26,280 They are told when to eat, they are told what to eat, they are almost fed with a spoon. 187 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,560 They are told when they can have an hour of fresh air. 188 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,040 They are told when they can go to the library and so on. 189 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:39,160 But on Bostø we give all that responsibility back to the inmates. 190 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:46,160 So we have to ensure and we have to supervise them on how to take that responsibility because 191 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:53,320 in our minds, if you release people from prison with no training on taking your responsibilities, 192 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,840 how can you expect that they actually stay away from crime? 193 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:58,840 Because they don't. 194 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,480 And we have like five, six hundred years of experience telling us so. 195 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:09,760 Yeah, what was interesting, I saw on statistics in one of the documentaries I watched and 196 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,880 it was that 95% of prisoners go back, you know, they get released. 197 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,140 It's only about 5% that never leave the prison system. 198 00:15:19,140 --> 00:15:24,320 And so as I point out in the documentary, these men and women are now going back to 199 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,320 your street. 200 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,160 They're going to be your neighbors again. 201 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,160 And what kind of person do you want? 202 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,960 Do you want someone who's been locked up in the Philadelphia model, as you said, or someone 203 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,760 who's been taught how to be a better member of the community? 204 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:39,760 Yeah. 205 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:48,040 I think that's quite important because as human beings, I mean, I've never met one 206 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,200 human being that really wants to be soft on crime. 207 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:59,200 I think it's within any person that, you know, if wrongdoing has been done, you know, the 208 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,240 need for revenge is there. 209 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,760 I accept that. 210 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:09,240 But if you start a discussion with people also in Norway, they can say that, no, you 211 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,320 know, in the region prisons, there are like hotels and probably they would say that in 212 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,200 London, in Miami, New York and Paris also. 213 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,520 Because it's like a common misconception that, you know, prisons, because they have television 214 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:28,400 sets and receive free food, that is like a hotel. 215 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:35,320 And I think that misconception is due to the fact that most people have never, ever experienced 216 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,280 the loss of freedom. 217 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:44,080 And in order to say anything about what loss of freedom means, I think you need to have 218 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:45,120 experienced it. 219 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,080 I think it's so important. 220 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:53,360 So you can give the general public a lot of examples, you know, to make they start think 221 00:16:53,360 --> 00:17:00,320 of what a prison sentence really feel like and what the loss of freedom really means. 222 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:06,800 For instance, if you say to a person that's, okay, we can do an experiment, I can lock 223 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,840 you up on the best hotel in London. 224 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,840 It's a suite. 225 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:20,120 You will have a big fancy, flat screen television, nice furniture, even an ensuite bathroom, 226 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:22,840 you know, with tiles. 227 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:28,120 But the backside of the project is that I am the one with the key to the suite. 228 00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:35,560 I am the one deciding the one hour of fresh air, when that is being done. 229 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,760 I'm the one who decides when you can call your family, your loved ones, your kids, your 230 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:41,760 wife. 231 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:49,760 And I'm pretty sure that most human beings will go to the calling that suite after maybe 232 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,880 just a couple of days and say, okay, I've had enough. 233 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,800 I want to go out. 234 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:03,240 Because I think in the end, a flat screen television, nice surroundings isn't that important. 235 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,360 It's just keeping you from getting mad, actually. 236 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:14,080 I think as human beings, we are pre-programmed to appreciate freedom. 237 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,640 I think freedom is maybe one of the most important issues for any human being. 238 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:27,560 And the minute you start feeling that that freedom has been taken away, your mind will 239 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:39,600 start working, thinking bad things, thinking, develop hate, bitterness towards the ones 240 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,200 that are actually taking that freedom away. 241 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,200 Yeah. 242 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,200 Now, what about speaking of that? 243 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,440 So do you have a high occurrence of violence between prisoners in Bastog? 244 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,600 No, we don't. 245 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Actually, we have had no examples for 30 years of inmates attacking staff members. 246 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:00,520 Wow. 247 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:01,520 See that? 248 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,520 Because that's obviously something that we see a lot. 249 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:08,440 And I like the fact that, let me see, the gentleman James Conway from Attica came out 250 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,640 to Norway and worked with you guys and saw your prison. 251 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:18,800 So it painted a very fair picture between these two prison styles because one was the 252 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,600 superintendent of an American prison. 253 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:27,080 But we here in the US and in England, the violence is obviously a huge thing and they're 254 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,920 forging weapons and all kinds of ways of either harming or killing each other. 255 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,520 So again, I personally, this is just my opinion, that seems to be a reflection that maybe that 256 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,920 system is not working well. 257 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Yeah, I agree with you. 258 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:49,400 And I also think it's quite easy to understand why it doesn't work or that prisoners are 259 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,680 attacking each other and also the staff. 260 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,840 I mean, imagine yourself if you're put to prison and you know that you have to stay 261 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,080 there for like 10, 15 years or maybe even longer. 262 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:09,200 And the environment you're going to spend the 10, 15 years in, to you seems very hostile, 263 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,200 very unfriendly, very violent. 264 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,320 I think as human beings, we adapt to that kind of culture. 265 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:23,400 I remember when I was 18 years old, I was going into the Norwegian army. 266 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,500 And I remember my girlfriend was driving me by her car to the army camp and we were sitting 267 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:34,760 in your car outside the army camp and I was looking into the army camp and I started thinking 268 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,320 that, okay, I'm going to spend a year in this army camp. 269 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,240 I was, you know, fresh out of high school and my mind started thinking and I was thinking, 270 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,160 you know, what is it like in there? 271 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,920 What kind of culture is within that army camp? 272 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,280 How is my, you know, fellow soldiers, the officers, the NCO and so on. 273 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:59,000 And I was kind of ready to adapt to the culture I would find in there because that is all 274 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,000 about survival. 275 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:10,040 You know, there's a saying that which goes like this, if you want to survive in the wolf 276 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,240 pack, you have to behave like a wolf in order to survive. 277 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:20,120 And I think it's exactly the same which is going on when I was going to the army. 278 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:25,760 And it's for sure the same fact that prisoners are facing whenever they're going into a new 279 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:26,760 prison. 280 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,240 You know, they want to know what kind of culture there is in the place they're going and they 281 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,760 are slowly adapting to that culture in order to survive. 282 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:41,720 So if the culture in the institution is violent, hostile, they will adapt and also become violent 283 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,280 and hostile because they need to survive. 284 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,040 I think it's quite easy to come to that conclusion. 285 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:56,380 So the point is, I think in order to have good institutions, good prisons where we actually 286 00:21:56,380 --> 00:22:02,480 educate the prisoners to become good neighbours, we need to create good environments. 287 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,040 We need to create, you know, kind of friendly environments because the loss of freedom, 288 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,040 it's there. 289 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,520 But we don't need to punish them further by treating them disrespectfully or badly or 290 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,040 even violent because that would only make them even dangerous. 291 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:25,760 And I think for me as a civil servant, you know, my pay is taxpayer money. 292 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:34,160 And if I was supposed to, you know, treat people badly in prison, disrespectful, you 293 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,040 know, giving them even more punishment by being an asshole, so to speak. 294 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,240 You know, I would only do the taxpayers not a favour. 295 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,080 On the contrary, I will, you know, really misuse the taxpayers money because I will 296 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,320 only serve them even more bad people when they're released. 297 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,360 And I think that's not in the public interest. 298 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:55,920 Yeah, no, I agree 100%. 299 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,960 Now you touched on something about national service. 300 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,480 Is that still a mandatory requirement in Norway? 301 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,240 No, not that much. 302 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,040 It's more or less voluntary. 303 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:14,680 Every young girl or boy has to answer an internet survey. 304 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,260 And if they say yes, they would like to go into the army, they are called in and tested. 305 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:23,520 So everybody who wants more or less can go to the army. 306 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,600 But if you don't want to, you're not likely to go. 307 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:27,600 Okay. 308 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,520 But are there a lot of people that do in Germany? 309 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,680 Yes, it is. 310 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,760 I think among especially young boys, I think it's considered to be a good thing to have 311 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,600 been doing a year in the army. 312 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,800 And I think also the Norwegian army has a quite good reputation when it comes to, you 313 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,560 know, education and so on. 314 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:53,400 And I think also a lot of employers, if they see on your CV that they have been to the 315 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,400 army, that's a plus. 316 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,400 Yeah. 317 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,840 Well, I think as well, obviously, we're talking about the prison system and I'd love to expand 318 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:00,840 on that even more. 319 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:06,120 But the other side obviously is society and then, you know, why are we maybe creating 320 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,280 more crime in the way we are? 321 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,160 And I know that there's one man I've had a couple of times on the show now, Sebastian 322 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,400 Junger, who's written about war and tribal mentality. 323 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,720 And one of his things as an observation is that national service, whether it's in the 324 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:28,660 army or some other way of serving your country for a year, would be a great thing for us 325 00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:29,660 to have. 326 00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:34,040 And I think it seems like some of the countries that do have that, Israel is another one, 327 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,880 do seem to have a lot less crime as well. 328 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,600 And I'm sure there's some sort of correlation between those two. 329 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,800 Yeah, I think so too. 330 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:48,400 I think, you know, the feeling the young men and women have when they go into the army, 331 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,240 you know, it's like they feel that they're actually serving their country. 332 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,960 And I think that's a very good thing, whether it's the army or some kind of civil service, 333 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:06,320 it still is the feeling of contributing to something that is actually bigger than yourself. 334 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,560 And while being in the army, you will learn a lot of useful things, really. 335 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:22,240 And I think, you know, you will learn, you know, what you call it, you know, how to treat 336 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:28,200 wounds, you know, learn how to respect weapons, handle weapons. 337 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,520 You will learn some kind of survival. 338 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,480 I think that will always be useful to some extent. 339 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,480 Yeah, absolutely. 340 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:42,280 Now, speaking of probably one of the worst individuals that has become infamous out of 341 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,720 Norway is Anders Breivik, is that how you say it? 342 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,280 Yes, Anders Breivik. 343 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,240 So would you mind just saying very briefly about who he is, what he did, but then also 344 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,280 which prison he's in now? 345 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,080 Which prison he's in, I can't tell. 346 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:04,280 Yeah, he is the guy who was convicted of both blowing up the governmental building in Oslo 347 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,800 in 2011. 348 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:14,320 And he also is convicted of killing, I think it was like 70 something kids on a political 349 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,000 camp on an island in Norway. 350 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,760 And he did that because of some ideological reasons. 351 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:33,360 He was what we consider to be a very neo-Nazi like sympathizer. 352 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:40,960 And he has some really weird theories about, you know, humans and political systems. 353 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:49,040 So he's now serving a kind of 20 years, 21 year sentence in a high security prison. 354 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,040 Right. 355 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,240 Now, was he ever in Holden Prison or have I got that wrong? 356 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,880 No, that's wrong. 357 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,200 So, what it must be referring to then is the 21 years. 358 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,160 So another interesting thing that you guys have is this is your worst or one of your 359 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,460 worst criminals and certainly made the news all over the globe, took all those lives. 360 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:15,720 But your maximum sentence is 21 years versus obviously England, America, where you can 361 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,800 attach life sentences to each other and have almost like a bizarre thousand year sentence. 362 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,560 So what was the thinking behind the maximum of 21 years? 363 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:33,120 I think when he went to court some years ago, I think that was maybe the biggest test to 364 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:39,440 our law system, our courts, the prison service, the police and so on. 365 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,760 But I think really we stood that test brilliantly. 366 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,080 I'm quite proud of it actually. 367 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:51,040 And he received a 20 years sentence, but that's not a normal prison sentence. 368 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,320 We go out more or less after two thirds. 369 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:00,560 It's a special detention he got that actually can be prolonged maybe for the rest of his 370 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,560 life. 371 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:06,040 And I think maybe that's what is going to happen. 372 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,160 So he won't be released after 21 years. 373 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,440 He will stay in prison probably for the rest of his life. 374 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,760 I think that is quite a good guess. 375 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:25,000 I really can't see that he is being released for maybe when he's a really, really old man. 376 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:35,560 So I think within our laws and our judicial system, we have also systems that can keep, 377 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,360 you know, our sentences that can keep really, really dangerous people out to the streets 378 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,120 for the future. 379 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,480 Right. 380 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,000 So I think the point I was going to make with Holden, and I obviously got that particular 381 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,920 gentleman wrong, but just to paint the picture, the people that are in Bastog and Holden, 382 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,800 we're not talking about shoplifters are we? 383 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,920 There are people who have done some pretty serious crimes. 384 00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,920 Is that correct? 385 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:00,920 Oh yes. 386 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Oh yes. 387 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,960 I think I can take Bastog. 388 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,080 We have 115 inmates there. 389 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,800 And last week when I was looking on the prison population, I saw that about 20 of those are 390 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,600 convicted killers that are serving sentences for murders. 391 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:27,040 And I think the longest sentence we have is a 21 year sentence for murder. 392 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,680 And I also think that's quite a common misconception among a lot of people that killers are the 393 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,880 most dangerous people we have in prison. 394 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,480 And I think that's quite wrong, especially when I look at my country, the statistics, 395 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,600 we see that in Norway. 396 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:54,280 I think on an average year you will find like we have maybe 30 to 35 killings a year, which 397 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,720 obviously is, you know, 35 too much. 398 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,580 But the statistics say that's the, you know, more or less accurate number per year. 399 00:30:02,580 --> 00:30:08,120 And if you look upon all those killings, you will find that statistically most of them 400 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:20,800 are being done while people are drunk, influenced by drugs, in a high state of anger or psychiatry. 401 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:28,240 And I think that very few killings every year is actually pre-planned and carried out as 402 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,240 planned. 403 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:35,480 And that is a very rare thing to happen in Norway. 404 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,960 So I think for those killers, I have at least a bust. 405 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:46,240 I think they never, you know, planned the murder they committed. 406 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,440 It happened. 407 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:56,000 So the threat of a prison sentence was never in their mind while doing actually the killing. 408 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,800 So whenever, when they were about to kill someone, they never thought, okay, will I 409 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,720 receive five years of prison for this or will I actually receive 150 years of prison? 410 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,320 They never thought about that because they were either drunk, drugged or in a very high 411 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080 state of rage. 412 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:21,660 So I think that whenever they come to prison, yes, they have been a really lethal danger 413 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:24,640 for some persons at a certain point. 414 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:31,320 And I think, you know, for the 25 years where I've been working in prisons, I can't really 415 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:38,520 think of a lot of examples where people, especially convicted killers, have actually composed 416 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,040 a threat to the general public, more or less. 417 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:49,600 I think they were obviously a lethal threat to some person at a particular time. 418 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,000 But I don't consider those a really threat to the general society. 419 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:01,200 I think then you have to look up on other inmates that I can really see that really 420 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,120 pose a danger to the general community. 421 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,120 Right. 422 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,800 Now you touched, I'm sorry, go on. 423 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,320 And those are not convicted killers. 424 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:10,320 Okay. 425 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:16,440 So is there any common denominator as to which ones are the more violent ones then, if it's 426 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,360 not the killers or is it just random? 427 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,160 I think that is random. 428 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:31,160 I think in our prison population at Basse-Dø, I think the most common sentence is drugs 429 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,680 and violence, also in combination. 430 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:43,080 And I think from time to time we have prisoners that really impose a danger to other people. 431 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,840 But those are not killers. 432 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:57,040 Those are just really violent people who maybe have some psychiatric issues or have shown 433 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:02,800 on several occasions that they have been a danger to other people committing rape, violence 434 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,800 and so on. 435 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,800 Right. 436 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,800 Okay. 437 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,080 Well, you touched on one thing I want to ask as well, because I know that this particular 438 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,520 issue fills our prisons over here. 439 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,920 And I want to touch on the actual sheer magnitude of our numbers in a moment. 440 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,920 You said about drugs. 441 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,520 So what is Norway's view on drugs? 442 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:26,120 If you are a user and you just found with, let's say some methamphetamine, for example, 443 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:32,320 but just a user's amount, you're not dealing it or smuggling it, would that result in a 444 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,440 prison fine or prison sentence? 445 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Excuse me. 446 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,200 Well, I think that has developed over some years now. 447 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,960 And I think actually there was in the papers now just a couple of weeks ago that no, you 448 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,600 actually have the majority of our parliaments. 449 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:58,800 They now feel that drug possession and drug use no longer is supposed to be a criminal 450 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,080 act, but it's more like it's going to be a health issue. 451 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,080 Sorry. 452 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:09,000 That has not yet been debated in the parliament, but I think it will, you know, we will move 453 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,000 in that direction. 454 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,160 But I think for several years now in practice that if you're a drug user, you're caught 455 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:25,760 with a small, I guess someone is coming in now, a small possession of cannabis, for instance. 456 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,240 You won't, from that possession, you won't be given a prison sentence. 457 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:35,480 You will be probably given some kind of community service and so on. 458 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:41,720 But I think the big problem is that a lot of the people who are populating prisons now, 459 00:34:41,720 --> 00:34:44,200 they're not there only for drug use. 460 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:51,320 They also are there for, you know, theft, violence and so on, because that's more or less other 461 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,680 things that they also, some of them also do. 462 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,680 It's not about the possession. 463 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:56,680 Okay. 464 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,480 Yeah, because I don't know if you are aware of this, but Portugal decriminalized their 465 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:07,720 drugs in, I think it was 2000, obviously just personal use, not smuggling and dealing. 466 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:12,280 And they had an incredible success because as just, I mean, you said the exact thing, 467 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,560 they viewed their drug addicts as a disease now instead of a crime, they were able to 468 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:22,520 come out of the shadows and get help and they completely reversed their drug use in Portugal. 469 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:29,080 Yeah, in my personal opinion, I think that's probably a good thing. 470 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:38,960 And I think by saying so, I don't say that drug use is a good thing because drugs is 471 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,560 obviously quite bad for you and people really shouldn't use drugs. 472 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,640 But I think giving people prison sentence for it, it's not a good thing for society. 473 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,440 I think we need other options, you know, like the healthcare systems and so on. 474 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,440 That's my personal opinion. 475 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:03,840 A shocking thing that we had here in the US and I'm not trying to just blast the US, 476 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,920 I just being an Englishman myself, I love it when we find some other country on the 477 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,800 planet that appears to be doing something maybe a little bit better than us than we 478 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,800 could learn from. 479 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,440 And I'm sure that's why Mr. Conway came out from Attica to look at your system as 480 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,920 well. 481 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:27,680 But in 1970, we had 350,000 prisoners and today we're close to two and a half million 482 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:28,680 prisoners. 483 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,080 So obviously, you know, I'm not a mathematician, but that seems like our system is not working, 484 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,760 but also that they're feeding some sort of growing need. 485 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,480 I know we have a lot of private systems here as well. 486 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,000 Have you seen an increase in the demand for the number of prisons in Norway? 487 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:53,520 Well, I think because we have this prison queue for a lot of decades now, and that prison 488 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,240 queue now is more or less down to zero. 489 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:05,000 So I think the demand for prisons in Norway isn't that high now. 490 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:14,200 And also the recent government and past governments, they have passed the legal act saying that, 491 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:21,600 for instance, electronic monitoring and other types of punishment should be used also in 492 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,240 more numbers than just a clean prison sentence. 493 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:33,600 But of course, if I was an American, which I'm not, but I would ask why. 494 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,920 The use of obviously billions of dollars in the prison system, is that a good way to spend 495 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,920 money? 496 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:48,960 Do the Americans and taxpayers receive the good results from that kind of use of money? 497 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:55,520 Obviously, when you have numbers of prisoners rising, I think the answer to that should 498 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,520 be a really clear no. 499 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,000 Because putting people behind bars is quite expensive. 500 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:08,960 And by spending tax dollars on something that probably isn't that useful as people might 501 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,400 think, they should really stop and maybe try other things. 502 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:14,400 Yeah. 503 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,520 And that's exactly why I wanted to interview you for that very reason, just to sow a seed 504 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,320 in people's heads as well. 505 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:30,360 So speaking of the budget, compared to the Norwegian impression of how much it costs 506 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:38,520 for incarceration, are you guys able to do the Bastogne model fiscally, soundly? 507 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:45,440 Yeah, I think when you look upon all the prisons in Norway, you will find that Bastogne is one 508 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,320 of the cheapest prisons in Norway to run, because it's low security. 509 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:58,480 And I think what's actually making a prison more or less expensive is the number of staff. 510 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,760 Because salaries, that costs a lot of money. 511 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:12,960 And I think that in Norway, the number of staff is actually quite low per inmate. 512 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,960 That makes it quite cheap. 513 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,680 And also we produce a lot of our own food. 514 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,360 And I think it's not so much about the money. 515 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,280 It's the way we think. 516 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:30,080 Because we obviously also save a lot of money by giving responsibility to inmates. 517 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,920 Because whenever we have a meeting with new inmates, we say to the inmates that, okay, 518 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,280 the number of staff is 72. 519 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,120 The number of inmates is 115. 520 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,920 And the number of staff, the staff members, we can't maintain this island and run this 521 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,520 prison village ourselves. 522 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,120 We need help from the inmates. 523 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,200 So if the inmate doesn't help us, they can't receive any visits. 524 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,800 And there will be a shortage of food. 525 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:07,880 And the prison island won't be such a good place to be if they don't want to work. 526 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,520 So obviously, I could have only staff members working on the ferry. 527 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,480 But that would make it a lot more expensive than using inmates. 528 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:25,360 So I think both giving the inmates important tasks, giving them responsibility, is also 529 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:32,680 making the prison much less expensive to run. 530 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:33,680 Right. 531 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,960 And I know that I've seen this happen at Bastogne, but it actually happens at a prison here in 532 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,680 central Florida, where I live, where they have a prison garden. 533 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,160 And that makes perfect sense. 534 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:49,040 If you're teaching these prisoners how to farm, how to grow their own food, and then 535 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:55,160 that food obviously feeds everyone in the prison, not only are you not having to buy 536 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,040 food, but also when these men and women leave the prison, now they have a skill, they can 537 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,400 go out and get a job as well. 538 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:02,400 Exactly. 539 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,400 Exactly. 540 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,360 And we know for a fact, for instance, if I take the ferryboat, that a lot of prisoners 541 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:13,640 that have worked on that ferryboat actually now are working on other ships in Norway as 542 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,280 a quite normal job. 543 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:26,920 And that is giving me more, being more convinced that such way of running the prison system 544 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:33,360 is very, very useful because you save tax dollars and you also are giving people important 545 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,360 knowledge. 546 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:35,360 Absolutely. 547 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,320 Now, the other thing that I've noticed that we do here in the US, and I just found this 548 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:46,520 out, I didn't realize is some of our prison systems provide very, very, very inexpensive 549 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,640 labor for outside corporations. 550 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:57,320 So when the guys are working in Bastog or Holden, are they doing the same thing? 551 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,280 Are they working for outside companies or are they just working to run the prison itself? 552 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:12,800 No, I think more or less they are working within the prison with prison production, 553 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,800 which are not used more or less by private companies. 554 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:23,440 You will find that in some prisons, the prisons have agreements and are cooperating with private 555 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,920 companies in production. 556 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,400 And the prisoners are also working in that production. 557 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:35,440 But the number of that is quite low, actually. 558 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:44,520 And I think most prisons in Norway are trying to find ways to educate the inmates, give 559 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:53,000 them work training, vocational training on matters that are important for the society. 560 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,600 For instance, we know that there's a lack in Norway of a lot of skills. 561 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,000 The rate of unemployment in Norway is quite low. 562 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,480 I think it's something like 2.2 percent. 563 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,000 So actually, the society, they need a bigger workforce. 564 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,560 They need more people to work in Norway in a lot of trades. 565 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:23,800 And so we also find that it's quite easy to help the inmates to a job after release. 566 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:29,800 And I think the best thing we can do in prison is give them proper job training, which is 567 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:35,160 not about production, to have bigger income to the prison. 568 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,680 That would probably be good for the prison there and then. 569 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,120 But we are working for the society and not ourselves. 570 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,800 And I think it's in the society and the general public interest that we are actually educating 571 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:57,200 car mechanics, ship crew, shopkeepers, rather than have been giving people training on how 572 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:02,000 to assemble a piece of plastic, for instance, for a private company. 573 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,600 Yeah, I agree 100 percent. 574 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,200 If you're able to be employed the moment you walk out, then that's just going to set you 575 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,200 up for success. 576 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,880 Now, what about housing? 577 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,840 I would say some of these men or women have been incarcerated for, let's say, 20 years. 578 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,280 Is there any assistance in getting them into a place so they're not going from the prison 579 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,880 straight to homelessness? 580 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,440 Yes. 581 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:32,440 Whenever a release is getting near, we have both the prison officers, the social staff 582 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,120 and so on. 583 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:41,440 We try to see to that every prisoners that are released are either going to the job or 584 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,120 school and they have some kind of housing. 585 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,120 That's kind of mandatory before release. 586 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:53,560 Because we know for a fact that if they have nothing to do and a very bad place to live 587 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,880 or no place to live at all, the way back to criminality is quite short. 588 00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:58,880 Yeah. 589 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,200 Now, what about the health care? 590 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,680 What kind of health care system do you guys have over there? 591 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,120 Does it come out of your taxes or is it private? 592 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,880 No, it's out of the taxes. 593 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,960 So whenever you go to a hospital or a doctor, you only pay a small amount of money to do 594 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:15,960 so. 595 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:16,960 Everything is free. 596 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:17,960 All right. 597 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:18,960 So that sets them up as well. 598 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,440 You don't have to worry about health insurance or anything like that. 599 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,880 No, just to keep travel insurance. 600 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:23,880 Okay. 601 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,880 All right. 602 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,600 So I'm going to ask you one question and then we'll just wrap it up with a couple of very 603 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:28,840 short ones. 604 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:34,760 But just so that we can paint a picture so we all here know of our traditional system. 605 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,600 They're behind bars for a majority of their time. 606 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,080 They'll get one hour exercise. 607 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,960 As you said, they get told when they eat, when they can phone their family. 608 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,040 So would you mind just kind of painting a picture of what a day in Bastogne would look 609 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,400 like from sun up to sun down? 610 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,400 Yeah. 611 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,600 They will have to wake themselves about seven o'clock. 612 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:01,160 They have to prepare and eat their own breakfast in the houses where they live. 613 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:08,040 They have to go to work and be present there at 8.15 and they are also counted. 614 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,160 And they have to either work or go to school until 12 o'clock. 615 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:16,400 Then they go back to the houses and they prepare and eat their own lunch. 616 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,120 All the meals they have to buy in the prison shop. 617 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,680 The prison shop is run by staff and inmates. 618 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,600 They work until three o'clock. 619 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,640 Then they're going to the mess hall and they're eating dinner. 620 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,720 The dinner is prepared by the prison for them. 621 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:40,200 Then is there a spare time until half past ten o'clock in the evening. 622 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,640 Then after 22.30 there's a general curfew on the island. 623 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,160 So they're not allowed to leave the houses after that and before seven o'clock in the 624 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,160 morning. 625 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,620 But no houses are locked. 626 00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:55,840 So in theory they can go out but they're not allowed to. 627 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:05,320 So in the spare time they are either doing things for themselves, playing football, jogging, 628 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:06,320 fishing and so on. 629 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:12,600 So we try to encourage the inmates to use their surroundings on the island wisely. 630 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,280 Pick up new hobbies for instance and so on. 631 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:24,600 When I say that all the meals except dinner has to be bought in the prison shop, we give 632 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,080 back the surplus from the prison shop to the inmates. 633 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:35,440 We're not only trying to create good neighbours for the general public at Bastet but we also 634 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,960 try to give the inmates some sense of democracy. 635 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,240 So we have established what we call an island council. 636 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:50,680 An island council at Bastet is like some members elected by me as the governor and their staff 637 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,800 and also inmates they elect their own members to the island council. 638 00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:03,080 That island council they meet up once a month and they are taking decisions on some matters 639 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:10,360 that are concerning all the inmates like visiting facilities, visiting hours and so on. 640 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:16,080 And they also every year have to decide on how to spend the surplus from the prison shop. 641 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:22,640 And giving the inmates the ownership of the prison shop also means that that is a shop 642 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,040 with no shoplifting because if they steal from the prison shop they're stealing from 643 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,040 themselves. 644 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:37,800 So that's an example of both giving responsibility but also trying to develop some kind of democracy 645 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,760 on the prison island. 646 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,880 That's more than a normal day. 647 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,560 Okay, so there's obviously a lot of pride in the prison then because it's their home. 648 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:48,560 Exactly. 649 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,200 And we see that it's mandatory to work from 8 o'clock until 3 o'clock. 650 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:59,000 A lot of inmates they work like 10-15 hours a day because they want to. 651 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,840 Doing different things. 652 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:01,840 Yeah. 653 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:07,480 Now another thing, I've seen this on film and I urge anyone out there listening to go 654 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,920 see some of the documentaries that are done on the prisons out there. 655 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,440 But an area when I ask people on the show, what do you do to decompress? 656 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:20,000 One of my final questions, being out in nature is nearly always one of those things. 657 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,280 And by creating this open environment that you guys have with normal houses and no bars 658 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:33,240 anywhere, these men and women are out in the fresh air a lot, which I'm sure has a huge 659 00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:38,960 positive effect on their overall mental health as well. 660 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,960 Yeah, I agree with you. 661 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:42,960 I think that's very good. 662 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:49,640 You can imagine yourself being in a high security prison somewhere that when you look out the 663 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:55,440 window, if you even have a window, you will see barbed wire, big concrete walls. 664 00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:03,200 And if already you have a lot of anger, a lot of regrets, a lot of trouble in your life, 665 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:09,200 looking at that kind of surroundings probably will just even create more problems. 666 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:10,320 You will be more angry. 667 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,600 You will feel the problem is even bigger. 668 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:18,680 But on Bostøy and that kind of prisons, you can go out, you can experience nature and 669 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:26,920 you can really feel the tranquility sitting on the stone and just watch the waves on the 670 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:27,920 ocean. 671 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,960 That will probably make your mind work better than just looking into barbed wire and concrete 672 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:34,960 fence. 673 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:35,960 Yeah. 674 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:36,960 Okay. 675 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,560 And then just to finish painting that picture as well, your guards aren't armed, you don't 676 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:44,120 have like holds of riot police on the standby. 677 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,880 These guards are interacting with the prisoners every day. 678 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:47,880 Yes. 679 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:48,880 Yes. 680 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,920 I think the best weapon we have on the island because we have no shotguns, no armed weapons 681 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:53,920 at all. 682 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,560 The best weapon our staff have is interacting with the inmates. 683 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:06,040 In our philosophy, if the relationship between the staff and inmates are good, there will 684 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,040 be less violence. 685 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,920 On Bostøy, as I said, we have no violence. 686 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:10,920 Yeah, that's amazing. 687 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:11,920 All right. 688 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,360 Well, I'm going to wrap up Tom, because I know you've been very, very generous with 689 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:15,360 your time already. 690 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,120 Just a couple of very short questions that I ask everyone that comes on this show. 691 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,760 So firstly, is there a book that you recommend to people? 692 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:24,600 It can be about what we've talked about. 693 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,320 It can be about something completely different. 694 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,640 Just a favourite book of yours. 695 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,520 A good question. 696 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:40,800 I think I will have to go for a book written by a Norwegian professor called Niels Kristi. 697 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,280 He wrote a book about crime and punishment and the idea of society, which I find quite 698 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,280 good. 699 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,520 And as I get older, I find it even better than I used to when I was introduced to that 700 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:53,520 book on the Prison Academy. 701 00:51:53,520 --> 00:52:00,800 I don't remember the name of the book, but I think among criminologists and so on, it's 702 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,320 quite famous, often in the United States. 703 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:04,320 Okay, brilliant. 704 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:09,360 Now, what about a movie or film and or a documentary? 705 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:18,120 Well, I should say now that The Devil Island, which is a film about Bostøy and the reformatory 706 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:25,960 days, but I think probably my favourite film is Shawshank Redemption, I think it's called. 707 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:26,960 Yes. 708 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:33,120 I think that's a good film about prison and what that is all about. 709 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,120 Fantastic. 710 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,120 All right. 711 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,680 If you could recommend a guest, so another person to come on this show and talk to the 712 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:45,960 police, firefighters, paramedics of the entire world, who would you recommend? 713 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:52,960 I would recommend a friend of mine called Fredri Bolle. 714 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,520 He's a man my age. 715 00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:01,720 He has been a soldier for a lot of years, both in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Lebanon and so 716 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:02,720 on. 717 00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:17,880 He also started what you call a childcare unit for kids aged from 7 to 18, which is 718 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,520 quite well known in Norway also. 719 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:26,840 He's doing a lot of lectures on his experiences, both as a soldier, a special ops soldier and 720 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,880 also running this child welfare facility. 721 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:32,840 Wow, that would be fantastic. 722 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:33,840 I'd love to get him on. 723 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,280 Thank you. 724 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,960 And then the last question I have, what do you do to decompress? 725 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:46,040 So after you're done, you know, your day in the prison, what do you do to relax? 726 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,000 I'm more or less doing the same as the prisoners. 727 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:56,760 I try to, you know, take as much time as possible also together with inmates. 728 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:03,120 I find that having a prison with like 150 more or less very satisfied inmates, spending 729 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:09,480 time with the inmates, discussing with the inmates is probably what's giving me a lot 730 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:10,480 of energy. 731 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,640 And if I can do that, you know, by taking a walk around the island, sit down on some 732 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,800 part of the island, look out on the ocean, having a good discussion, that is also giving 733 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:21,960 me a lot of energy. 734 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,880 But in general, just using nature. 735 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,200 Okay, yeah, same question. 736 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:28,200 Exactly. 737 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,040 It's funny because the same as for the warden is for the prisoners. 738 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:32,040 So I love that. 739 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:33,040 All right. 740 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,740 So the last thing then, if someone wants to reach out to you for, you know, for more information 741 00:54:36,740 --> 00:54:41,400 or connect, where can they find you out in the wide world of the internet? 742 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,640 Well, they can find me either on LinkedIn or they can also go to the bus day website 743 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:53,280 called busboyfengshun.no where they will find both information also contact information 744 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,160 about bus day and myself. 745 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:56,160 Brilliant. 746 00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,400 Okay, well, thank you so, so much for taking time out of your day to talk to us today. 747 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,240 I was inspired by, you know, your system and I think you guys have pioneered something 748 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:11,980 that's really making people out in America and England really rethink about what we've 749 00:55:11,980 --> 00:55:13,760 always done. 750 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,080 And maybe, you know, hopefully we'll adopt your model and start to reverse this growing 751 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,480 trend of incarceration that we have at the moment. 752 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,480 So thank you very, very much. 753 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:51,480 Good bye.