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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show the facilitators for the emotional resilience program at OKA, Ryan Munsey and

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Hassan Kamel.

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Now Hassan is the lead consultant at OKA and he personally coaches a spectrum of people

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from C-suite executives to the military and first responders.

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Ryan Munsey is the author of the bestselling book, Fuck Your Feelings and the co-founder

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of the Better Human Project.

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So in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from their early lives, their journeys

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into their respective careers, the importance of discomfort to forge resilience, emotional

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intelligence, vulnerability, servant leadership, their perspectives on the first responder

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community and so much more.

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And before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost a thousand episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Ryan Munsey and Hassan Kamel.

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Enjoy.

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Well Ryan and Hassan, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to Joel Evan for making this connection in the first place.

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And secondly, I want to welcome you both to the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you, James.

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Glad to be with you.

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Yeah.

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Thank you, Joel, for the introduction and James, thanks for having us on.

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Looking forward to the conversation.

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Absolutely.

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All right.

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Well, I'm obviously going to go back and forth with each of you so we can kind of walk through

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your journeys.

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Let's start with you, Hassan.

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Where are we finding you this my afternoon, your morning?

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So in Fairfax, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, sitting here at work and just

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finished coaching a couple of people on resilience as a matter of fact.

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Beautiful.

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And I said, so it's your afternoon as well.

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And what about you, Ryan?

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Where are we finding you?

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Same time zone as Hassan and you too.

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I'm about an hour west of Hassan in Winchester, Virginia, working from home today.

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So beautiful.

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All right.

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Well, then I'll stay with you, Ryan, first.

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I love to kind of learn the kind of back story.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Okay.

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So only child.

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I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, about two and a half, three hours south of where we

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live now.

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And I guess family dynamic, man.

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I was really fortunate.

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My parents were awesome and are awesome.

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It's funny, I've had this conversation with them and with other people, being 40 years

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old and having hindsight into how I was raised and why they did what they did.

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I'm really fortunate to have had parents that were as invested in my future as they were.

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And grew up playing sports, dad coached little league and basketball, and I played travel

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basketball, travel soccer.

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Mom worked her butt off.

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She would drive 45 minutes to an hour each way to work and then shuttle me across town

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to travel practices.

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And as a kid, I had no idea how hard they worked and what they did for me.

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But again, as an adult and in hindsight, just really grateful for the childhood that I had

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and how they set me up for life.

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And as far as professions, what were they doing?

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Dad was a salesman.

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And so he traveled quite a bit.

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But like I said, when he was in town, he was a coach on all the teams.

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And mom worked in, I don't even know what industry you would call it, I guess.

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She worked for a company called Gardner Denver.

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Then they were bought by Ingersoll Rand.

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And then it became, she worked at General Electric.

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She's always been kind of in an office setting in industrial warehouses type things.

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She's been a buyer, her most recent 15, 20 years, she was a buyer for a company called

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Altech.

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They make cherry pickers and cranes.

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Okay.

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And then what about career aspirations?

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You mentioned the sports you played.

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What were you dreaming of becoming when you were in the school age?

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Professional athlete, of course.

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Which one?

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Which sport?

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I don't think it mattered.

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I just wanted to play sports.

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Now I played baseball until middle school, and then it was just soccer and basketball.

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I think by that time I realized I wasn't a good enough athlete to be able to do that

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professionally.

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And I went to a big time D1 school.

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I went to Clemson University and definitely was not a good enough athlete to play for

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them.

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So yeah, I think professionally, once athlete was out of the picture, I never knew what

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I wanted to do.

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I only knew what I didn't want.

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And what I didn't want was, if you've ever seen the TV show Weeds, I love the intro to

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that show, because it's kind of a parody on going to college, getting a degree, getting

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married, having a bunch of kids, having a minivan, living in the suburbs.

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And I just knew that cubicle farming wasn't my future.

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Absolutely.

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Well, I want to get onto the topic of youth sports.

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Before we do, let's go to Hassan's early life and then we'll reconvene.

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So same question to you.

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Tell me where you were born and a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings?

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Sure.

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So James, I was born and raised in Heliopolis, which is a suburb outside of Cairo, Egypt,

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and grew up there until I was age 17 before I immigrated to the United States.

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But my family dynamic, slightly different from Ryan's in the sense that my mom was fully

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dedicated to really taking care of me and my brother.

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We were her job.

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Basically, she was a homemaker.

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My dad was an architect and his job pretty much was consuming most of his time.

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We saw him, we interacted with him, but certainly not to the degree that we interacted with

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my mom.

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She took care of our education.

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I grew up in a British school, so it was half run by British educational system, half run

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by Egyptian educational system.

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From a very young age, both my brother and I were multilingual.

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Mom and dad were educated in French schools, so my brother and I were British schooling.

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Interesting enough, when we were growing up, of course, if they wanted to tell secrets,

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they would say them in French, so we wouldn't understand them.

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This kind of helped my brother and I decide, okay, the third languages we're going to learn

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is French.

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I grew up in a fairly privileged upbringing given Egypt and my Egyptian background, upper

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middle class family.

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Definitely from a very young age, education was important to both of our families that

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we finished our schooling.

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We went to college and from college, we did what we wanted to do.

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I don't know how much you know about the British education system.

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I think you probably are very well versed in that, but our future was very scripted

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from the very beginning based on what classes we did well in and so forth.

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Pretty much science and engineering were pretty much the track that my brother and I were

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kind of encouraged to pursue from a very young age.

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Grew up thinking, okay, I'm going to either become a doctor or something in the field

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of biology because I was always fascinated by the natural environment.

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That was kind of my track until I came to the States at age 17 and went to school and

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studied biology for an undergrad.

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Really, my career took a complete turn and got into more the social sciences, but with

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a hard science background for the most part.

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That's kind of a little bit about my family dynamic and upbringing.

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What about sports?

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What were you playing and doing in the school ages in Cairo?

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In Cairo, we played basically soccer was big or football.

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That's how we refer to it.

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That was pretty much it.

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PE was part of the system, but I was never really much into sports.

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I was the geeky kid who constantly read and kind of taking a deep dive from a very young

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age at whatever topics I was fascinated by.

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That was more my area.

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I did PE and I did sports just because everybody else was doing it, but not because of an interest

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that I had necessarily.

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I was very fortunate to be part of a thing called 7X just over a year ago.

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We went around the world with a bunch of Navy SEALs and elite triathletes.

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They were basically doing a marathon, a skydive, and a swim in seven continents in seven days.

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It ended up being a marathon and then some swims and some skydives depending on what

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they were doing.

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The whole point was to study the breakdown of a tactical athlete and then how do we rebuild

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them again.

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One of the stops was Cairo.

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I was fortunate enough to skydive out of a Russian helicopter right over the pyramids

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and land 200 meters away from them.

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It was insane.

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When we went there, we stayed and had breakfast in this beautiful hotel.

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I had that incredible experience, but I'll never forget the drive to the pyramids.

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It seemed like there was such poverty, just a few blocks from these massive tourist attractions

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that obviously are the center of your culture.

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Talk to me about Cairo growing up.

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You mentioned about having an affluent upbringing yourself, but talk to me about the city in

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general and the contrast between wealth and poverty in Egypt.

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The contrast is pretty drastic between wealth and poverty.

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You're from the upper class, which was pretty much well-educated.

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You had enough money to live anywhere from the upper middle class to the upper class.

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Then you had really extreme poverty at the same time.

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Cairo is overwhelmed by the number of people and it's growing by the year.

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So it was heavy contrast to see that and I was always reminded constantly whether by

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seeing and experiencing life in Cairo or living at home.

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I was always fortunate and appreciative of what we had and how we were brought up and

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how our parents emphasized the value of education and don't take things for granted and so forth.

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Also a sense of social responsibility that you're privileged, look around you.

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You don't have to look very far before you realize that there's a lot of poverty.

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So we always were taught from a very young age the importance of getting involved and

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taking care of others who are less fortunate.

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I think that was imprinted on us from a very young age, both my brother and I.

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Beautiful.

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Well, I want to go back to you, Ryan, and open this to both of you now.

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When we're talking about PE and athletics in schools in America, I don't know if you

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had the same kind of perspective, Hassan, but when I came from the UK, my school experience

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at least was there was no real elite performance in schools.

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Now if I was an incredible football player, I'd go off to some farm team and wherever,

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maybe get groomed to actually be a good footballer.

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But we did a lot of sports, we played, we exercised, but there weren't gyms.

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We weren't having these massive football games where tens of thousands of people were watching.

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And what I witnessed when I moved to the US was this incredibly high level of performance,

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but this country is riddled with Uncle Rico's.

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And I always say that affectionately, but the number of like late 20s, early 30s men

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that I met that said I could have, should have, would have if it wasn't for my ACL,

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you insert injury here.

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And now they're deconditioned, they don't work out anymore.

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And so my observation has been we almost, there's a trade off between performance in

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our high schools and colleges and wellness and longevity of those young men and women

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once they leave.

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When you look at the UK, you play football at a certain level, but then you pay publics

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and local leagues.

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And normally, at least when I was young, the men were still playing rugby and football

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and cricket and all the things.

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So when you look back now, because we're going to talk about culture and mindset and fear

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and all these other areas, what is your perspective of how we introduce sports at the school level

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and or PE and how that factors in to what we're going to talk about today, the wellness

247
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and the motivation levels of our adults post education?

248
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That's a loaded question.

249
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There's so many different ways to go with that.

250
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I don't think there's any one reason, there's no one answer.

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I think the thing that as you go through all of that, the thing that keeps popping into

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my head is just how much the world has changed since we were say elementary school age.

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I think back to 80s, 90s, youth sports, PE, it was a very different time.

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And I think around the time that maybe I hit high school and after, maybe it's because

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I saw it, but maybe not.

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00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:37,960
I mean, I can remember as a kid, my dad used to go to the Y and play pickup basketball

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games and would take me with him.

258
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There were other men that did that.

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They played before I was born, they played in softball leagues.

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And I know that still exists some, but I don't think as much as maybe it does in England

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or other countries.

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But in regards to how kids are introduced to sports, when I say I think the world has

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changed, I mean, AAU and travel sports, specialization and year round things, it didn't exist in

264
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the 80s and 90s, certainly to the extent that it does now.

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And if it did, there were maybe one or two teams, it was maybe invite only.

266
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And I think there's pros and cons to this.

267
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So I don't want to phrase it in a way that only suggests that it's negative.

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I think if you look at the professional leagues in the college game now, you hear so many

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people talk about 18, 19 year old kids showing up on campus and they're ready to play at

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00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,620
a really high level as a freshman.

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00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:50,360
And a lot of that is due to what they've done through middle school, high school years,

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as opposed to go back to the 90s when a freshman shows up on a college campus, they're not

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as developed mentally or physically or from a skills standpoint either.

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And so there's certainly some pros and cons on both sides of that, but I just think it's

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just really changed.

276
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I think social media plays a part in that.

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I think money plays a part in that.

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00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:23,360
Just look at the purses for golf tournaments now and the payouts for college bowl games

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now.

280
00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:32,600
Sports have changed dramatically in the last 30 or 40 years and therefore the introduction

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00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,960
to them at an early age has as well.

282
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,720
Hassan, what's your perspective?

283
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,200
What I'm trying to unpack is, and you talk about these with social media, I feel like

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00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:49,000
there's a feeling now that if you're not first draft, if you're not varsity, then you know

285
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what?

286
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Don't even bother.

287
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And then you add into the injuries.

288
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You have these people that were phenomenal and then it's an overuse injury of a pitcher

289
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,800
or it's a linebacker that was encouraged to eat as much as they could and now he's fighting

290
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all the diseases that come with it.

291
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So what have you observed?

292
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,920
Because obviously you weren't growing up through the American system, but at the contribution

293
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,320
of some of the elements, like I said, it's not black and white, but the contribution

294
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:21,200
of some of the ways that we view sports and exercise in the U.S. working against the motivation,

295
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,160
the ability to stay fit and healthy as we progress through adulthood.

296
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Yeah, I think that my experience was completely different.

297
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,560
Of course, it's outdated because I left Egypt in 86.

298
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:38,800
I was only 17 years old, but I do remember, I mean, sports were an integral part of the

299
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:47,040
curriculum, but it was for everybody to stay healthy and you do certain things, you participate

300
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,520
in PE and so forth.

301
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:55,320
But even the athletes who are professional athletes, they didn't, from what I recall

302
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,480
and even members of the family, I had two members of the family who were part of the

303
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:07,360
Olympic team, but at a much older generation, my parents' generation, and they had their

304
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,880
professions and they did sports on the side.

305
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,200
They were pulled into the Olympics to do that.

306
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,840
And one of them was actually on the football team, the national football team that played,

307
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:26,520
I believe in 26, either 1920s or 1930s.

308
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,840
And that was from my grandfather's generation.

309
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:34,880
And then the other one was a weightlifter, but they both basically had professions that

310
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,920
they did and sports were on the side.

311
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:42,960
So the level of professional sports back then wasn't like what it is today that you dedicated

312
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,600
your life to sports and you went on the sports track all along.

313
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,020
My generation, I mean, we did sports.

314
00:21:50,020 --> 00:21:54,240
It was one of the many things that you did in school, like arts, like anything else.

315
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,000
So it was given its due time, but it was never that you do it at the exception of everything

316
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000
else.

317
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,520
It was a balance between all the things that you're interested in, arts, science, sports,

318
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,780
et cetera, to stay healthy and well-rounded.

319
00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:11,760
And that's how it was kind of introduced to us.

320
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All right.

321
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,520
Well, Ryan, back to you.

322
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,520
You're at Clemson.

323
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,320
You're not going to be able to play at that level anymore.

324
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,640
What was the kind of career path from there on in?

325
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:35,040
The first year or two, the career path was get as good at being a typical frat bro as

326
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,960
possible.

327
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,480
And I still didn't know what I really wanted to do.

328
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,520
It actually took me quite a few years there to kind of figure that out.

329
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:54,080
And I mean that in terms of what I was studying, but also what I wanted to do post-school.

330
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,120
And again, even then, I didn't know what I wanted.

331
00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:59,800
I just knew what I didn't want.

332
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:05,400
And I think that led to, I always call it the Van Wilder track where, you know, carry

333
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,440
the one and I was in school for six years.

334
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:16,120
So not quite his seven, but I started off, like I said, my dad was in sales.

335
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:22,000
He sold packaging and at the time Clemson had one of four packaging science schools

336
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,240
in the country and had really good job placement.

337
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:33,200
And so that's where I started off and eventually changed to food science and human nutrition.

338
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,040
I wanted to do something more like exercise physiology, but Clemson didn't have that.

339
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,600
And so what I chose was the closest I could get to that route.

340
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:46,400
And there was actually a lot of carryover, believe it or not, from packaging science.

341
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,120
Most packaging dealt with food.

342
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,800
So it's funny.

343
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,200
It's actually led to a lot of consulting work over the last five or 10 years with supplement

344
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:02,440
companies and other CPG companies who are, you know, in the health space, but also have

345
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,880
a need with packaging.

346
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,740
But you know, I was also really fortunate.

347
00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:11,840
My best friend from home was a year behind me and he actually was good enough to play

348
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,460
sports at Clemson.

349
00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:16,160
He was a high jumper on the track team there.

350
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:23,280
So when I wasn't in school and I started to get hooked on lifting, I kind of filled that

351
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,400
competitive void with the weight room.

352
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,560
And my pursuit was a little bit more along the lines of like bodybuilding.

353
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:38,800
I had Arnold's bodybuilding of an encyclopedia of bodybuilding and was just memorizing every

354
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:39,800
page of that.

355
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:45,460
And so between that and then my buddy being on the track team, I was able to kind of hang

356
00:24:45,460 --> 00:24:47,360
out at track practice quite a bit.

357
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:52,200
And that's where I learned a lot of performance training from the coaches that were teaching

358
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,040
the sprints to guys who did run in the Olympics and won medals.

359
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,880
And so it was really fortunate to be able to be exposed to the training side of things

360
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,800
and then also the science side of things.

361
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:11,960
And I always make the joke that I was biohacking before that was a word because in school I

362
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:18,120
was learning that you could really manipulate inputs, how you eat, how you sleep, how you

363
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:25,420
train to get certain outputs that facilitated the goals that you had.

364
00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:31,920
And as far as the career path, I knew that that was something that I was obsessed with.

365
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:39,120
I just wasn't sure how I was going to be able to do that.

366
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:44,040
And whenever I give my bio, I always like to skip the part immediately after school

367
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,320
or I gloss over it.

368
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,320
I tell people I pretended to be Derek Zoolander for a year.

369
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,320
Let's not skip.

370
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:51,320
Talk to me about that.

371
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,240
I'm going to stop you there because I was at drama school for a year and then got stuck

372
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,440
in the vicious circle of needing an agent to get work, needing a work to get an agent.

373
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,440
And they were headshots.

374
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,840
They weren't model shots, but I went to model agencies, put it there and I got a face like

375
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:05,840
a smacked ass.

376
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,040
So there was no chance I was going to get anything.

377
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,940
But I kind of experienced that cold judgmental world that is acting and modeling.

378
00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:15,640
So let's not skip over it.

379
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,320
Let's talk about it for a moment.

380
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,560
It's wild.

381
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:26,680
And so because of my interest in bodybuilding, I did a couple of shows and I met some photographers

382
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,160
and they're like, hey, we'll pay you to come out to this show or pay for the travel and

383
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,160
the entry fee.

384
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,880
And we'll just in return, you do a photo shoot, you get some photos.

385
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,680
And then I met a guy who was like, he called himself a mother agent.

386
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,720
And he's like, I'll take you to New York and introduce you to some agencies.

387
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:52,240
And all the while, like I said, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to pursue the

388
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,080
things that I'm passionate about.

389
00:26:54,080 --> 00:27:00,740
And I saw this as an opportunity to one, get paid to lift weights and to create some kind

390
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:06,980
of a platform where there would be a reason for people to listen to me.

391
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:10,980
And this was 2006, seven, eight.

392
00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:15,560
So really before social media was a thing.

393
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,520
One of the guys that I followed was a guy named Greg Avedon.

394
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,360
And he was like the men's health cover model.

395
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,200
And I'd had some interactions with him on his website and over email and he was really

396
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,000
helpful and I always liked the stuff that he wrote about in the magazine.

397
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,160
Again, this is like the early days of the internet when people would actually respond

398
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,160
to emails.

399
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,680
That's a long gone now.

400
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,680
It is.

401
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,680
It is.

402
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,960
And so I was like, you know, this guy is using his platform as a cover model to be able to

403
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,640
teach people how to eat and how to train.

404
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,800
And so that was something that was of interest to me.

405
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,040
And I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe I'll go to New York and I'll get famous and

406
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:59,120
then I'll be able to teach people how to eat properly and how to train and things like

407
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:00,120
that.

408
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:01,480
And that was the plan.

409
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:07,520
And then as you kind of alluded to, you get there and you realize like, wow, this is nothing

410
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,720
like what I expected it to be.

411
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,240
Cold, superficial.

412
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,040
You walk into castings and it's like a cattle call.

413
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:21,080
There's 200 guys and they all look exactly like you and you walk up, they're like, next,

414
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,080
you hand them your portfolio.

415
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,200
They flip through the pictures, they hand it back.

416
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,200
Okay, thank you.

417
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,200
We'll let you know.

418
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,200
You're out the door.

419
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,000
And it's like, it's that.

420
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:35,960
And it just, it wasn't even the rejection that stacked up, which I mean it does, but

421
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,480
it was more of, for me, it just felt really superficial.

422
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:51,960
And some other things happened that just made me realize, say I had opportunities for work,

423
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:57,720
but in order to get those opportunities, I would have had to compromise my values and

424
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,840
I wasn't willing to do that.

425
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:07,840
So I lasted about nine months and I went up right after school and then by Christmas I

426
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:08,840
was out of there.

427
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,400
I'm glad you shared that bit because the only time I ever did modeling was naked with a

428
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,520
Donald Duck held over my groin for a car rental commercial.

429
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,000
So I don't think it exists anywhere on the internet.

430
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,000
Thank God.

431
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,160
But yeah, that was my one modeling gig I got paid for.

432
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,640
That's because I worked for that company.

433
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,640
But anyway, all right.

434
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:35,560
On that tangent, so Hassan, you were talking about being so engrossed in the science side.

435
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,560
Walk me through your on-ramp into your profession.

436
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:45,960
So what got me in my profession, I was doing science in school with the intent at the time

437
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,520
to go into medical schools afterwards.

438
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:55,040
And of course, being having left my home country, my family, all of that stuff, there are all

439
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:01,680
the trials and tribulations of assimilating into a new culture, new system of education,

440
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,680
everything else.

441
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,980
And my grades suffered at some point in time and I realized, why am I going into medicine?

442
00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:12,760
Is it because those were the two tracks, medicine or engineering, if you went into science in

443
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,340
Egypt?

444
00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:16,000
Or is it because of a passion I have?

445
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,380
And I really had more passion for the natural environment.

446
00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:21,640
That's why I went into biology.

447
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,280
And I was like, okay, I'm going to pursue that.

448
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,000
And I pursued that for undergrad, grad school, all but dissertation and a PhD.

449
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,380
And that didn't work out very well, particularly because of a conflict I had with my advisor.

450
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:41,640
And at the time, being in a science field, it was very much emotions.

451
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
All of that was foreign language.

452
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:51,040
I mean, you did your work, you studied, you took the exam, and the world was very objective

453
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,000
world to a scientist at the time.

454
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,000
And that's what I was supposed to do.

455
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,640
And when I did all but dissertation and the PhD and realized that that's not where I want

456
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,000
to continue my life path.

457
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,200
Along the way, I was working because as a foreign student, you could only work on campus

458
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,400
and something that's affiliated to the field that you're studying.

459
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:22,880
And I did work in environmental education in an outdoor education center.

460
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,200
But part of it was environmental education.

461
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,960
Part of it was also helping people learn how to work together, collaborate and build teams

462
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,320
more effectively.

463
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,880
How to lead more effectively, how to follow more effectively, what group dynamics are

464
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,400
like, etc.

465
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,280
And I really found a passion for that.

466
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,660
I enjoyed it.

467
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:50,120
And at first, I did it because I was an extremely shy, introverted on top of it, individual

468
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,960
who was really having a difficult time give any public speaking.

469
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,260
And I realized in grad school that, well, I'm going to have to do a lot of public speaking.

470
00:32:01,260 --> 00:32:04,680
So I better get good at it very quickly.

471
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,800
And doing the job that I did at the outdoor education center was a way for me to do it

472
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,940
in an environment I was somewhat comfortable with, the outdoors, and with smaller groups

473
00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:19,520
and helping facilitate activities from one activity to the next, etc.

474
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,800
So they're doing the work I'm observing at the end.

475
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,800
We debrief and we talk about what worked, what didn't work.

476
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:30,880
So that was an easier way for me to inch my way into public speaking and being able to

477
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:37,200
talk in front of a large group of people and know what I'm talking about.

478
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,880
That led into the field of organization and leadership development when I decided I'm

479
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,680
terminating my PhD program, all but dissertation in sciences.

480
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,680
What do I do afterwards?

481
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,380
I was so done with academia, I didn't want to have it left such a bad taste in my mouth.

482
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:59,720
And my biggest challenge was how did a relationship that starts so well with me and my advisor

483
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:07,080
over time deteriorated and I was incapable of managing the interpersonal side of that.

484
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,000
It got to the point that we couldn't see eye to eye almost on anything.

485
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,120
And that intrigued me.

486
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,000
I was like, why is it what makes for good, effective working relationships and what makes

487
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,400
for poor relationships?

488
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,400
And what are the success factors?

489
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,720
And to me, that was another field that I got really interested in.

490
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,760
And with my science background, I tried approaching it from a science perspective, from a black

491
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,040
and white perspective, but it's really behavioral.

492
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,760
Shades of gray are all over the place.

493
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,980
There's no black and white in behaviors and no black and white in leadership.

494
00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:44,040
Some leaders are effective and some leaders are very ineffective.

495
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,720
And it's not ones and zeros anymore.

496
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,640
So that to me was fascinating.

497
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,960
And I got more and more in the field of organization development, leadership development, how do

498
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,640
you develop effective leadership skills and so forth.

499
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:02,480
And part of it along the way was the element of resilience, because when you leave your

500
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,400
country, the familiar territory, your family and so forth and immigrate to a new country,

501
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,760
there's got to be some ability to build resilience skills in there.

502
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,920
So resilience was always playing in the background without even my knowing that it's part of

503
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,800
the equation.

504
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:25,960
But that kind of got me in the field of organizational learning and organization development.

505
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:32,840
And one of the individuals who was the head of the master's program in organization development

506
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,000
at American University, she would bring her classes always to the center where I taught

507
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,920
and she would select me as the facilitator every time she was like, nope, I want Hassan.

508
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,540
I want Hassan.

509
00:34:43,540 --> 00:34:47,320
So she asked me one day, she was like, Hassan, where's your PhD program at?

510
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,320
What's going on?

511
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,640
I said, I'm not answering, let me tell you.

512
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,440
So I started telling her, she decided, hey, let's go to dinner and talk about this at

513
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,960
more depth.

514
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:03,140
And she was really a catalyst in my moving my career, basically 180 degrees from physical

515
00:35:03,140 --> 00:35:07,160
sciences and hard sciences to social sciences.

516
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,500
She was an inspiration to me.

517
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,640
And she said, hey, have you thought of what you're going to do next?

518
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,320
I said, no, I'm at a loss actually.

519
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,720
All I know is I don't want to go back to Egypt.

520
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:17,800
I want to stay here.

521
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,080
This is my home and I want to pursue a career and I have so many limitations.

522
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,360
She said, okay, well, let's work on those limitations.

523
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:32,760
And she basically was the one who thought, have you thought of going into leadership

524
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,280
development and facilitation?

525
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,080
I said, I was always doing this on the side.

526
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,360
It never was an intent for me as a career.

527
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,960
And she said, yeah, but you're good at it.

528
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,400
Have you thought of that?

529
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,680
I said, yes.

530
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,160
And I haven't thought of it, number one, it would be fascinating to me.

531
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,240
When I'm done with academia, I don't want to go back and get another degree.

532
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:57,720
So she was an inspiration in the sense that she helped me solve the problem and work through

533
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,720
it and she said, you do not need another degree.

534
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:06,280
You're already doing the field in a practical way.

535
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:12,200
You just don't have the credentialing that is academic to go and do it.

536
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,200
So you could do it.

537
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,280
You're basically doing it backwards.

538
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,980
You have all the practical experience.

539
00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:19,040
Have you thought about getting certifications?

540
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,240
You don't have to go back for another degree.

541
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:23,120
You're educated in another country.

542
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,440
You're multilingual.

543
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,960
You have experience from other cultures and other organizations and so forth.

544
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,440
Have you thought about just getting certification, not a full on, you know, master's or PhD in

545
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,040
the field of organization development, but just the certifications with your practical

546
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,480
experience and really take the plunge and jump into the field of organization and leadership

547
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,160
development?

548
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,320
And I had never thought about it until we had that conversation.

549
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,920
I was like, well, actually that sounds feasible.

550
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,340
And that's what I ended up doing.

551
00:36:50,340 --> 00:36:56,440
But it was really a very circuitous way of getting to my field that I'm currently in

552
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,180
and I'm very passionate about.

553
00:36:59,180 --> 00:37:02,640
You mentioned being an introvert and this is something that was really interesting.

554
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,520
I had the author of The Introvert's Edge on quite a while ago now.

555
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,480
And one of the things he said to me, I know this isn't his own work specifically, but

556
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,720
the way you discover if you're an introvert or an extrovert is where you draw your power

557
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:16,720
from.

558
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,720
And I had never thought of it that way because I'm the kind of person, I'm fine to be in

559
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,880
a crowd, but you'll turn around one moment and I'm gone.

560
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,280
Like when I hit that wall or I go to a party, I'll be the one sitting in the garden, still

561
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,280
at the party, but sitting outside.

562
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,680
And so I didn't realize, oh, wow, I'm actually an introvert.

563
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,320
But the number of people I think, especially when it comes to the real powerful topic is

564
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,840
drinking, the number of people that need a pregame before they go out because they see

565
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,520
everyone else is the life of the party.

566
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,560
I don't know what's wrong with me, so I'm just going to drink.

567
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:46,560
Now I feel good.

568
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,640
Now I can go dance on tables.

569
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,400
How many people through your work collectively have you seen, do you think actually unbeknownst

570
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,720
to themselves are truly an introvert?

571
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,640
And that is some of the internal struggle that they deal with.

572
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,800
Actually that's more common than you think.

573
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,420
It really is, and there is such a misconception about what introversion is.

574
00:38:06,420 --> 00:38:11,960
Often people associate introversion with shyness and you don't have the social skills, et cetera.

575
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,520
It couldn't be farthest from that.

576
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,120
It's what you draw your energy from, as you had mentioned earlier.

577
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:27,800
So if I plug in my computer, my laptop, my phone to a source of energy, it's recharging.

578
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,760
But when it's fully charged, I can unplug it and I can use it in whatever capacity I

579
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,560
want, but it's draining the batteries.

580
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,160
And that's exactly what introversion, extroversion is about.

581
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,320
I'm someone who's clearly an introvert.

582
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,400
I am drawn to the inner world of ideas, of thoughts, of reflection and so forth.

583
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,320
And that's where I draw my energy.

584
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:53,640
But once I am fully charged, you can unplug me and put me in a crowd or whatever.

585
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,600
Mind you, it's much easier if there's context, either familiarity with the people.

586
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,040
I'm with or familiarity with a subject we're talking about.

587
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,360
Then yeah, you cannot distinguish between an introvert and an extrovert once there's

588
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,780
context and familiarity.

589
00:39:07,780 --> 00:39:17,640
So it's a matter of can you one, understand what your preference is to fill that cup,

590
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,040
fill the battery, recharge the battery.

591
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,600
But then can I function outside of my preference?

592
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:24,600
Absolutely.

593
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,640
The demands of us to function out of preference on a regular basis and to say, well, sorry,

594
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,340
that's not my preference is not an excuse.

595
00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:37,040
We have to be able to navigate both worlds, but know where you charge your batteries from

596
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,720
and what drains it so that you can be fully charged.

597
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:46,320
And when you face whichever world you're in, you can perform to your best of your abilities.

598
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,320
Absolutely.

599
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:53,520
Well, Ryan, same question to you with your perspectives on that.

600
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,840
I think Hassan just said it so well.

601
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:04,080
I would consider myself an introvert in a lot of circumstances, but I think like both

602
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:10,400
of you guys, I think like you, James, I mean, I'll be at a party, but I'd rather be in

603
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:17,440
the garden having a stimulating conversation with two or three people.

604
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:27,800
And I think to Hassan's point, it's not all one way or all the other.

605
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,760
I think for those, I mean, obviously the three of us would consider ourselves introverts,

606
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:39,560
yet I'd put money on it that something like this conversation is energizing for all three

607
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,560
of us.

608
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:49,720
And so I think we have to be careful putting labels on ourselves and on others and putting

609
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:51,600
things into these little boxes.

610
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:58,960
Because I think both of you guys are aware that that's a really dangerous fixed mindset

611
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,160
and to say like, this is what I am.

612
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:08,080
And as Hassan said, the more we do that, the more we tell ourselves that we can't function

613
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,400
outside of that preference.

614
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,960
And I love that phrasing.

615
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:17,200
And I think, again, as Hassan said, the world requires that we function outside of our preference.

616
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:23,640
I see it so many times in corporate settings, in team settings.

617
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:31,720
Hassan and I both work with military, fire, law enforcement, as well as corporate.

618
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:44,560
And so many team dynamics suffer when individuals fail to recognize their preferences and their

619
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:50,720
propensity to not want to function outside of those preferences.

620
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:58,640
And not just in terms of introversion, extroversion, but in terms of tactics, strategies, communication,

621
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,560
there's a lot that goes into that.

622
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,400
Well, tacking on what Hassan was saying about education, I went to University of North London,

623
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,560
got my sports science and exercise.

624
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,400
Oh, God, I forget the term now, exercise studies, I think it was.

625
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,080
And then at UF here in Gainesville, I got my exercise physiology degree.

626
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:22,200
And it's a shame because I reflect with a lot of money spent in higher education.

627
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,880
And it really didn't serve me very well to get out there and coach and really understand

628
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:27,880
exercise.

629
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,160
I was lab focused and I was very disappointed, for lack of a better word.

630
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:38,520
Conversely, the NSCA, some of those certifications that I've done, the strong fit classes, the

631
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:44,680
strong first classes, I mean, these are a handful of days that really gave me a lot

632
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,680
to go away with.

633
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,680
Any of them stand alone, perfect, of course not.

634
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,840
That's why you learn other things.

635
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,200
As you progress in your strength and conditioning journey and you had the food nutrition degree

636
00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,600
under your belt, what was your journey as far as education, learning the trade and how

637
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,320
did that compare to your academic journey?

638
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:16,800
So wow, you know, in school, it's always so frustrating, maddening for me to talk about

639
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,120
the dietetics programs.

640
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:29,720
Again, I was in school from 2002 to 2008 and I learned back then what everybody is talking

641
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:32,560
about today in terms of food.

642
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:38,480
And by that, I mean, you know, you can't trust the recommendations that are put out.

643
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:49,320
You know, I was, at least in my curriculum, you have the prerequisite science classes,

644
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:50,320
right?

645
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,760
So you name the science class, I took it, anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, microbiology,

646
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,120
organic chemistry, regular, whatever.

647
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,700
And then you have the nutrition side of the curriculum, community nutrition and medical

648
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:06,040
nutrition therapy and all these things that make you a dietician.

649
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:11,280
I almost did air quotes, but it was actually like that is the schooling that I have.

650
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,480
If I did an internship after school, I would be a dietician.

651
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,440
Personally, if I hear someone's a dietician, I run away.

652
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,120
And the reason for that is because I know what they're taught and I know what you have

653
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:31,320
to do in terms of kissing the ring to maintain that certification and that status.

654
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,040
And what I would have to do to be able to call myself a dietician means that I have

655
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:41,080
to tow the party line and say things that, A, I don't agree with because B, they don't

656
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,960
fit the science.

657
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,080
And so, like I said, in my science classes, I'm learning how metabolism works and what

658
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,680
happens and blah, blah, blah.

659
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,080
And then you go to the nutrition class and you've got a teacher who's overweight to obese

660
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,800
and she's saying all foods fit.

661
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,200
There are no bad foods.

662
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,720
And I'm the kid in the back of the class with a can of tuna and half an avocado and everybody's

663
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:07,000
turning around like, oh, man, it smells in here again.

664
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:13,360
But I'm raising my hand and I'm asking questions and I'm pushing back and the teachers, I mean,

665
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,240
they did not like me.

666
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,480
And they're just like, please stop asking questions.

667
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,480
Stop thinking critically.

668
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,160
I'm like, well, no.

669
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,720
And so that was on the nutrition side.

670
00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:30,280
But then I think to your question on the strength and conditioning side, it was very similar,

671
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,300
my experience to yours in terms of, I was kind of laughing to myself as you're talking

672
00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:42,720
through that because the reason I got out of the gym, I always tell people I got tired

673
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:48,080
of coming in on a Monday and answering the question, how many burpees do I have to do

674
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,520
to undo what I did over the weekend?

675
00:45:51,520 --> 00:46:00,680
And I guess to elaborate on that, you learn programming and you learn the X's and O's.

676
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,360
And I became very good at writing programs.

677
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:09,540
If you come to me and you say, hey, I want to be 100 meter champion, okay, or I want

678
00:46:09,540 --> 00:46:12,720
to lose 10 pounds or I want to be a bodybuilder, whatever.

679
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,680
The strength conditioning side, the diet side, that's so easy.

680
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,760
I can write that for you and you can follow it and you'll be there.

681
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,600
But most people can't follow it.

682
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:29,520
And so my evolution as a coach is what got me into what I do now and how I've come to

683
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:30,960
work with Hassan.

684
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:37,240
And I think he said it earlier, you have this realization that there's more to it than just

685
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,320
the X's and O's.

686
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,960
And that's what really fascinated me.

687
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,020
I wanted to know why people's actions didn't align with their goals and values.

688
00:46:47,020 --> 00:46:48,480
You tell me you want to lose weight.

689
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,440
You tell me you want to get a college scholarship.

690
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,760
You tell me you have this goal.

691
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,840
I'm laying out the red carpet for you.

692
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,660
All you have to do is follow this program.

693
00:46:56,660 --> 00:46:59,180
Why can you not follow it?

694
00:46:59,180 --> 00:47:07,480
And so that was what really led me to, again, this work and to get more into the neuroscience,

695
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:18,000
the psychology, biology of behavior and decision making and what we might call mindset and

696
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,720
high performance.

697
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:25,160
When I talk about first responder fitness, there's always the ownership conversation.

698
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,920
And again, we're all sitting here seemingly in pretty good health.

699
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,480
So that's an understood concept.

700
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,480
But to be very fair to my first responder brothers and sisters, they work in an environment

701
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,160
that mostly is set up for failure.

702
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,440
The fire service, they work 56 hours a week, not sleeping every third day.

703
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,960
You add in mandatory overtime, which is becoming increasingly likely because of the understudy

704
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:48,960
staffing.

705
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,920
Now they're working 80 hour weeks, the same with law enforcement.

706
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,640
They're in a patrol car for 12 hours a day.

707
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,560
So sometimes they're fit despite the environment, not because of it.

708
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,120
And there are some departments that do the work week, some departments that have nutritionists

709
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,360
and strength and conditioning coaches that are trying to affect that side.

710
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,540
But when I look at it nationally, it's the same conversation.

711
00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:13,440
And there's no better example of how far we are from where we need to be than the advice

712
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,480
that was given during COVID.

713
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,720
People shut the parks, the beaches and the gym, stay in your house and you can door dash

714
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:22,560
fast food and alcohol while you binge watch the Tiger King.

715
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,160
You know, I mean, it couldn't be worse.

716
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:32,320
So before we dive deeply into the psychology, the environment in 2024, what are some of

717
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:37,760
the challenges that are creating this distorted mindset that's so hard to get people back

718
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,240
on track when it comes to their wellness?

719
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:48,840
Hassan, you want to take it or I mean, one of the things that really jumps out at me

720
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:54,200
right off the bat is, you know, Hassan and I were in Virginia Beach last week with the

721
00:48:54,200 --> 00:49:00,180
sheriff's office and had multiple parts of conversations with them around, as you just

722
00:49:00,180 --> 00:49:01,520
touched on, staffing.

723
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:07,120
And I mean, the room that we were in, in this training facility right across the hall was

724
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,000
an amazing gym, great equipment.

725
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,400
I mean, I would love to go in there and train.

726
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:20,040
But I think you said it well, the folks who use that resource are probably doing it in

727
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:26,720
spite of not necessarily because of the opportunities and their environment.

728
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:31,560
You know, they're struggling with numbers, you know, getting people into the academy,

729
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,080
getting people to apply.

730
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,000
You know, I've got a friend that just retired from LA SWAT and he was telling me, you know,

731
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,480
he's been in for 30 something years.

732
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,800
When he first came through, they would have something like 90 to 100 people come through

733
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,360
the academy and only the top 20 or 30 may have gotten a job.

734
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:57,040
You know, now there are, you know, 40 to 50 openings and only 20 or 30 people coming through

735
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,560
the academy each cycle.

736
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,520
And so everybody that passes gets a job.

737
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:12,360
So you have this, there's for a variety of reasons, you know, social pressures and, you

738
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:18,760
know, beliefs and, you know, there's not a lot of people wanting to do this work right

739
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:19,760
now.

740
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:26,440
And, you know, there's, as you said, people are understaffed or under resourced.

741
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,360
You know, we were talking to these folks last week that, you know, they want people to get

742
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,840
the training and the development that we're trying to bring.

743
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:40,880
But folks are either on shift and out working or they're off and that's like they're one

744
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,440
day off and they don't want to come in and do this kind of thing on their day off.

745
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,880
Not because they're not interested, but it's like, if you only get one day off or two days

746
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,600
off, the last thing you want to do is go to work.

747
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,640
And so I don't know, I'm kind of off on a rant here.

748
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,840
Hassan, is there anything you want to add?

749
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,280
No, I think I'm going to try to approach it slightly differently, but to compound what

750
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:09,120
you just mentioned, Ryan, I think the ability to unplug and be present is something that

751
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:17,140
is highly desirable and truly lacking in today's society.

752
00:51:17,140 --> 00:51:26,080
Social media, the ability to be constantly connected, compounded by further by COVID.

753
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,760
And now we can be in a meeting like we are right now virtually and so forth.

754
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,980
There's almost no separation, no boundaries.

755
00:51:33,980 --> 00:51:41,680
So I think boundaries are really critical in knowing when to unplug and be fully present

756
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,240
in whatever it is that you're doing.

757
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,560
And we used to think mind, body and spirit.

758
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:52,160
I think what Ryan and I are finding and working on, we found it already, I think a while back,

759
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,360
but now working on is to integrate emotion into that.

760
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,540
Knowing body, spirit and emotional states, because our emotions play a huge role in how

761
00:52:00,540 --> 00:52:05,220
we make decisions, how we discipline ourselves.

762
00:52:05,220 --> 00:52:10,540
And when we do whatever it is that we're doing, be fully present, be unplugged from everything

763
00:52:10,540 --> 00:52:20,760
else and let's kind of drop the myth of multitasking, because I think multitasking is exactly that.

764
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,920
It's a myth.

765
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,640
We cannot multitask.

766
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,880
Science has shown it.

767
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:32,200
And I used to think, well, I'm lacking something because I can't multitask.

768
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,600
Now I'm realizing that everybody can't multitask, but they're just pulling the wool over our

769
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:41,240
eyes that they can actually focus on anything that they're doing when they're multitasking.

770
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:47,200
So I think part of it and part of the challenge that these folks are facing is even when they're

771
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:53,400
not on shift, they are accessible still because they have a phone, they're supposed to answer,

772
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:59,160
they're supposed to stay plugged in and respond to whatever email or text or phone call they

773
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,840
get from their chief or whatever.

774
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:09,460
So I think we need to bring back the boundaries where I say, okay, I'm not reachable and I'm

775
00:53:09,460 --> 00:53:10,780
working on something else.

776
00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:15,880
I'm working on developing me because without me, I have nothing to work with.

777
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,400
I don't know if that made sense or I've took that tangent further out.

778
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:20,600
No, no, it does.

779
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,000
It does and that was absolutely tactical athlete specific.

780
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:31,240
When we move backwards though, when just in the general population, we've gone from, for

781
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:36,560
example, schools where the kids either brought their own food or the kitchen in the school

782
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,760
would make real food, PE was integral, play was integral.

783
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:47,400
And now, PE has become voluntary if you want and the school food is nothing but processed

784
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,080
foods from Cisco and then soda machines everywhere.

785
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:55,360
So when it comes to, for example, our children's health, immediately, there are very, very

786
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,080
obvious things that in my opinion should have been fixed during the two years of COVID if

787
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,220
we were truly talking about health.

788
00:54:01,220 --> 00:54:09,160
That aside, it's very unfair, I think, to shame someone about their wellness or their

789
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,760
fitness without taking into account the environment.

790
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:17,000
So for example, you're an inner city kid, the only food around you is in a bodega down

791
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,000
the street.

792
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,200
You've got chain link, you know, fence parks that may or may not have gang activity going

793
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:23,680
on at the same time.

794
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,800
That's a very different experience than my English as growing up on a farm in England,

795
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,720
having food growing in the fields and animals to chase and play.

796
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:35,640
So environment is definitely part of it.

797
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,500
Culturally as a nation, what have we done to create some of the issues that we're going

798
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:45,680
to discuss as far as motivation and mindset in the US population?

799
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,040
I think that currently there is the will to pay attention to that.

800
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,480
I'm not so sure what we've done.

801
00:54:54,480 --> 00:55:00,040
I'm grappling with that because I think we're having the right conversations.

802
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,560
I'm not sure that the environments and the setup are really conditioning us to pay attention

803
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,800
to those things that we're saying we're prioritizing as important.

804
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:16,360
So I think the conversation is always a good start, but I'd love to see us put more effort

805
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:21,880
into so what are we putting into action to actually bring about the importance of those

806
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:30,120
conversations and really speak to the prioritization we're giving to each and every aspect of our

807
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,120
lives that we're considering important, whether it's physical, whether it's mental or whether

808
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,120
it's emotional.

809
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,600
Ryan, anything to add?

810
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,480
I think that's well said.

811
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:48,880
I would agree completely that the arenas and the ways in which we're having these conversations

812
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:54,040
may not be the most conducive to true dialogue.

813
00:55:54,040 --> 00:56:02,000
I would say that to your question, I think societally, culturally, I don't know that

814
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:08,680
most people are really interested in dialogue.

815
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,680
I think people want to be heard.

816
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,520
And I guess when I say that, I'm thinking about how most people behave on social media.

817
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:22,680
Again, most people, not people who listen to a podcast like this.

818
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:30,400
I think as a whole, whether it's, I guess if we move off of how the conversations are

819
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:36,320
being had and where they're being had to the other part of what Hassan said, I think it's

820
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:37,480
just like anything else.

821
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:42,280
If it's a priority, then we need to implement, we need to act on it, the follow up.

822
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:52,000
If you say, hey, we're going to make this change, if we're truly interested in betterment,

823
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:58,720
growth, development, whatever that change might be, we have to take action on it.

824
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:07,680
And I think that's where, again, it's from a society standpoint, we're so conditioned

825
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,660
to celebrate new beginnings or new starts.

826
00:57:11,660 --> 00:57:16,720
We don't celebrate consistencies or follow throughs.

827
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:22,100
Just think if somebody was like, hey, I'm starting a new diet or hey, we're day one

828
00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:25,240
of blah, blah, blah.

829
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:36,440
How much energy or celebration would that same announcement garner if somebody was saying,

830
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:45,320
hey, I'm 461 days into whatever the thing is, right?

831
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,920
Walking, drinking enough water, sleeping eight hours a night.

832
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:56,720
So I think maybe shifting from celebrating new starts to celebrating consistency and

833
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:09,380
follow through and the actual work required to do the things that bring about the outcomes

834
00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:10,840
and results that we're interested in.

835
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,700
Well, let's start unpacking the neuroscience then.

836
00:58:14,700 --> 00:58:18,520
So you mentioned about having that kind of Monday morning conversation, which a lot of

837
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,560
the coaches on here have talked about.

838
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,340
People are great Monday to Friday and then they come in with their tail between their

839
00:58:23,340 --> 00:58:26,640
legs on Monday morning going, I kind of screwed up.

840
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:35,480
So what was your aha moment and then walk me through your journey to start understanding

841
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:41,640
the tug of war in our mind from all these different elements?

842
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,160
Tug of war is such a great word or phrase.

843
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,880
I'm glad you used that because that's actually one of the phrases I use to help people understand

844
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,400
the different parts of our brain.

845
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,720
And so we have the limbic system, we have prefrontal cortex.

846
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:04,820
And if I'm speaking and trying to give people a crash course, I will say, think of these

847
00:59:04,820 --> 00:59:09,920
as parallel universes that are playing tug of war to see who's in control.

848
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,800
Or if we want to anthropomorphize it and say, the prefrontal cortex is like an angel on

849
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:21,880
one shoulder and the limbic system is sort of the devil on the other shoulder.

850
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,840
Limbic system is incredibly fast.

851
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:32,400
It is the ego driven teenager that is incapable of seeing beyond the now.

852
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,760
On the other hand, that prefrontal cortex is like the wise old sage.

853
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,800
It's capable of complex thought, seeing beyond the now.

854
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:48,560
And so that's sort of like being able to, what's the word?

855
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:53,040
I'm drawing a blank on immediate gratification.

856
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,120
So that would be the limbic system.

857
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,320
But the limbic system, and this is something I always make sure to communicate is it's

858
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:01,680
not all bad.

859
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,740
It's there for survival purposes and especially in the tactical population.

860
01:00:05,740 --> 01:00:11,000
We're going to want to rely on the limbic system for a lot of circumstances.

861
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:15,440
As I said, it's much faster than the prefrontal cortex.

862
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:20,640
If you and I are walking down a trail in the woods and we're side by side, if I see a snake

863
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:27,520
before you do, my hand is going to go out and shoot in front of you to stop you before

864
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,120
I can verbally say, stop snake.

865
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:35,560
And I always, in a talk setting, I'll have somebody, I'll ask them what they'll do and

866
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:41,240
they always give me some variation of a physical movement and then the verbal communication.

867
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:46,360
And that's because the movement is rooted in limbic system and it's faster than the

868
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,420
verbal which is rooted in prefrontal cortex.

869
01:00:49,420 --> 01:00:54,560
And so this is a great example that A, it can save our life, but B, you will always

870
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:59,400
have the limbic response before you have the prefrontal cortex response.

871
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,260
And that is really important for folks to understand because it brings about an awareness

872
01:01:04,260 --> 01:01:05,620
of how we're wired.

873
01:01:05,620 --> 01:01:07,920
This is the human operating system.

874
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:12,760
And if you can understand that, then you can start to have some grace and some understanding

875
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,480
as you go through life.

876
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:20,300
And instead of it being a snake on the path, maybe it's a cookie at Whole Foods in the

877
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:22,920
bakery section.

878
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,960
The first thought, that limbic response is, oh man, that thing smells good or, oh, I'd

879
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,220
love to have that cookie.

880
01:01:28,220 --> 01:01:33,520
And then the prefrontal cortex is, oh, but I don't eat gluten or, oh, I'm on a diet or

881
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,960
whatever it might be.

882
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:41,480
And so many people get hung up on the fact that they had the first thought first.

883
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:43,400
But that's the thing is it's just a thought.

884
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:44,840
You don't have to act on it.

885
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,840
And there's nothing wrong with you for having that thought first.

886
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:54,040
As a matter of fact, the more that folks start to understand that this is how you are wired,

887
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,840
the less they judge themselves and the less they feel like they have to act on that first

888
01:01:57,840 --> 01:01:59,280
thought.

889
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:03,800
And so that kind of brings us into the first part of your question.

890
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:11,600
The aha moment for me was coming across research from a guy named Antonio Demacio who had a

891
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,360
patient that had a tumor on his prefrontal cortex.

892
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:23,500
Tumor was removed and it led him to realize that 95% of our decisions are made based on

893
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:26,320
how we feel in any given moment.

894
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:31,240
And I always tell people don't get hung up on the number because everybody wants to argue

895
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:32,240
95%.

896
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:33,240
Okay.

897
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,800
I don't care if it's 90% or even 80%.

898
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:43,400
It's still an overwhelming majority of our decisions that are made based on a fleeting,

899
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,960
transient, short term way of being.

900
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:55,280
Neuroscience defines feelings as mental experiences of physiological states.

901
01:02:55,280 --> 01:03:01,240
So with your background, you realize, hey, a physiological state, I can change that instantly.

902
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:05,560
And so if we can change our physiology, we can change our mental experience, that means

903
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:11,840
we can actually control what's going on, whether that's bottom up or top down, both are viable

904
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:12,840
avenues.

905
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:19,940
But again, we don't want to be making decisions based on short term transient ways of being.

906
01:03:19,940 --> 01:03:24,360
And so that's where, as I phrased earlier, I want to know why people's actions are not

907
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,920
aligned with goals and values.

908
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:32,440
And the answer is what we just talked through, that most people are making choices and therefore

909
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:38,480
acting based on feelings and short term transient ways of being.

910
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:45,240
And so the work that I do and then the work that Hassan and I do together is helping people

911
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:51,640
realize that and then defining their values and learning how to make choices and act based

912
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,600
on goals and values as opposed to feelings.

913
01:03:54,600 --> 01:04:03,240
Hassan, I want to add to that, but to add another layer, what I'm getting from this from a lot

914
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:11,980
of people that I just know in everyday life, that initial kind of lizard brain response,

915
01:04:11,980 --> 01:04:19,320
if it was 500 years ago, you probably wouldn't have guilt and shame layered onto that cookie

916
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:21,160
in Whole Foods.

917
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:27,200
So how have we devolved to the point now where that initial response is actually, or the

918
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,800
following one is actually a negative kind of tug of war now instead of those two just

919
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,960
working side by side?

920
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:40,300
Well I think kind of to pull on the thread that Ryan started here is it's not the ability

921
01:04:40,300 --> 01:04:45,520
to suppress one system or the other or to give favor to one system over the other, but

922
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,860
it's how do they communicate with each other?

923
01:04:48,860 --> 01:04:56,100
We are constantly making decisions and using both our cognition and our emotions or feelings

924
01:04:56,100 --> 01:04:58,260
to make wiser decisions.

925
01:04:58,260 --> 01:04:59,260
Think about a bird.

926
01:04:59,260 --> 01:05:01,160
A bird cannot fly with one wing.

927
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:02,920
Our cognition is one wing.

928
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,600
Our emotional states is the second wing, but it's to allow the communication between those

929
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:14,240
two to really foster better, more effective decision making about the process.

930
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:20,980
So whether it's a snake on the trail or it's the smell of a cookie and it's just freshly

931
01:05:20,980 --> 01:05:27,720
baked in the oven or I am in the boardroom making a decision about my team or my own

932
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:32,240
leadership of myself because leadership is self leadership, leadership of others and

933
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,120
leadership of organizations.

934
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,940
So all of us are leaders at one point or another.

935
01:05:36,940 --> 01:05:42,520
So when we are making decisions and let's say you and I are sitting at the board table,

936
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:49,640
James, and you kind of I say something and you kind of give me that look on your face

937
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:54,000
and I read that look which reminds me of a look that I used to have from my teacher in

938
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:59,280
high school or whatever that you disapprove of what I just said and automatically that

939
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:05,020
influences my decision making about you and about what we are doing moving forward.

940
01:06:05,020 --> 01:06:10,560
But those are being made on a regular basis, those decisions and am I succumbing to just

941
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:16,240
the emotional gut reaction or am I taking this information and saying okay here is the

942
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:18,760
reality of what happened.

943
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:23,120
James could have been responding to what I said or James could have been responding to

944
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:29,020
a thought that he was thinking of on his own and just made this facial expression.

945
01:06:29,020 --> 01:06:36,500
So to be able to use both emotional data as well as cognitive data to help inform how

946
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:40,240
do I move forward, what's the decision that I need to make.

947
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:49,120
I think that's at the root of it whether we are working with PTSD patient or an individual

948
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:54,880
who is trying to be more disciplined in managing their health or whatever the case may be.

949
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,400
But I think it's that connection between the emotional and the cognitive that helps us

950
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,560
move forward.

951
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,740
So when you've identified that there is this tug of war, what are some of the principles

952
01:07:05,740 --> 01:07:12,040
and philosophies that you teach people so they can actually take that tactical pause?

953
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:21,920
I think first of all it has to be enough emotional self-awareness, knowing what am I feeling,

954
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:29,160
can I name it, that emotional granularity of am I angry or am I feeling betrayed or

955
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,680
what's going on with me and what is it triggering in me.

956
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:39,040
So one to be aware of what's the emotion or the feeling I'm experiencing right now, what

957
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:45,880
really caused it and what's the story that I'm telling myself to justify one thing or

958
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,600
another to give it some pause and thought.

959
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:53,360
And people sometimes say, well isn't that really difficult and it takes time.

960
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:59,360
Yes, it does at the beginning but the more you develop the muscle memory in doing that

961
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:05,240
and the more fine tuning you have in understanding your own emotional landscape and what are

962
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:10,080
your default modes, then you can navigate through that process much faster.

963
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:15,120
It's almost like in sports, it's play by play, slow motion so that you can see how things

964
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,320
are played and what really took place.

965
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:23,440
The more you study yourself doing that, the more apt at doing that faster, more efficiently,

966
01:08:23,440 --> 01:08:27,160
more effectively and therefore managing yourself in those states better.

967
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:31,560
So I think the first step is to pause and say, what's going on with me?

968
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:36,640
Ryan, would you add anything to that?

969
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:41,920
I think the way you approach that is great.

970
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:48,880
I think it's something where it's not a flip the switch once and you're done with it.

971
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:55,160
It's not like, hey, I made the decision to be a better leader or be a better communicator

972
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,560
or have more awareness.

973
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:05,040
As James was asking the question, awareness is what was popping into my mind as well.

974
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:12,080
And so I think just to elaborate on the way that Hassan was explaining that, I always

975
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,280
remind people that it's a process.

976
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:22,980
I made the face because Hassan said one of my trigger words.

977
01:09:22,980 --> 01:09:27,280
Muscle memory is like nails on a chalkboard to me because muscles do not have the capacity

978
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:28,360
for memory.

979
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:29,360
It's neurological wiring.

980
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:30,360
And he's heard me say this.

981
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:31,360
I'm not throwing him under the bus.

982
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:37,440
No, I'm not throwing him under the bus on the podcast.

983
01:09:37,440 --> 01:09:39,840
He knows this.

984
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:47,340
But to that point, anything that the lay person may think of as muscle memory, whether we're

985
01:09:47,340 --> 01:09:55,920
talking about a golf swing, riding a bike, drawing a pistol, those are neurological wirings.

986
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,160
They're neurological pathways.

987
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:08,300
And the same way that we ingrain those, we ingrain behaviors, thought processes, patterning.

988
01:10:08,300 --> 01:10:16,640
So James, if I told you I was going to change your golf swing, you may have thousands of

989
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:21,320
repetitions of doing it a certain way.

990
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:26,840
If we go out and we have a lesson, and we make some changes to your swing, you're going

991
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:29,200
to feel great while you're doing it.

992
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,800
And you're going to hit the ball straighter, further, higher, or whatever.

993
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,680
And then tomorrow, you're going to go out on the range and you're going to practice

994
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:42,240
it and you're going to have some expectation that it's not going to be perfect right away.

995
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:48,560
And you're going to know that you need to accumulate many, many repetitions of this

996
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:56,120
new way before it is as ingrained as the previous way.

997
01:10:56,120 --> 01:11:02,160
And I explain this because, again, behaviors, thought processes, these are neurological

998
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:07,800
pathways and patterns, just like a physical skill or movement would be.

999
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:13,440
And so again, it's that having awareness and grace and understanding that, hey, we're

1000
01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:19,080
learning a new behavior pattern, you're not going to get it all right all the time.

1001
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:23,040
There's going to be a couple of those bad swings where it's not the previous way, or

1002
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:27,620
maybe it is the previous way and you make the mistake, but understanding that you need

1003
01:11:27,620 --> 01:11:30,600
to accumulate those repetitions of the new way.

1004
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:36,640
And again, it goes for these new patterns and behavioral processes just like it would

1005
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:40,880
changing something physically.

1006
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:47,040
One of the things that I've really started unpacking recently, and the backstory is simply,

1007
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:51,680
how do you be the head of a cigarette company knowing that hundreds of thousands of people

1008
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:52,880
are dying because of your product?

1009
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:57,840
How do you become the chief of a fire department knowing that there's multiple suicides and

1010
01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,160
you're doing nothing about it?

1011
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,800
And each of those individuals are able to sleep at night.

1012
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:07,400
And I would argue that the same mental health challenges, not saying it's ill health, but

1013
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:13,040
mental health challenges that we see at my level, at the firefighter level, that is evident

1014
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:14,040
in these areas too.

1015
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:18,020
They're head of a Purdue Pharma that you could sleep knowing that you are the cause

1016
01:12:18,020 --> 01:12:21,800
of an opioid epidemic that's killing people to this day.

1017
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:28,340
So when you kind of dissect some of the challenges to true servant leadership and some of these

1018
01:12:28,340 --> 01:12:34,480
great leaders that you've seen, have you witnessed at all the element of unaddressed trauma,

1019
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:41,360
unaddressed struggles, whatever you want to describe it in some of this micromanaging,

1020
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:46,160
self-serving leadership that I've certainly experienced in the fire service?

1021
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:47,160
Yes.

1022
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:51,940
Short answer is yes, we have.

1023
01:12:51,940 --> 01:13:01,400
So I mean, when you give those examples, so cognitive dissonance is the behavioral phrase

1024
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:06,240
that comes to my mind when you talk about somebody who smokes cigarettes and believes

1025
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:10,400
that they won't get cancer, yet they fully understand that smoking cigarettes causes

1026
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:11,400
cancer.

1027
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:12,400
Right?

1028
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:13,880
I know it happens, it's just not going to happen to me.

1029
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,280
That's cognitive dissonance.

1030
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:21,120
For the head of Purdue Pharma and how they sleep well at night, I would say that's probably

1031
01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:22,560
not cognitive dissonance.

1032
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:27,160
That's just a terrible person.

1033
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:35,120
But I think we would like to hope or we would like to believe that if somebody is a chief

1034
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:43,400
at a fire department, that they're not evil, that it is either cognitive dissonance or

1035
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:44,960
a lack of awareness.

1036
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:53,600
I know we just talked about awareness, but I think if somebody is truly a good person

1037
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:59,760
and they're not acting on something, it has to simply come down to either a lack of awareness

1038
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:06,240
or maybe they simply feel like it's futile to try to do something.

1039
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,340
And if that's the case, I mean, that's sad.

1040
01:14:09,340 --> 01:14:12,800
But I think it speaks to some of the things that we kind of touched on earlier where people

1041
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:19,600
are understaffed, under-resourced, and feel like it's insurmountable.

1042
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:28,120
I know Hassan and I both have some people that we've had those conversations with.

1043
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:35,440
And I think Nassim Taleb is one of my favorite authors.

1044
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:41,740
And he's got one of his books is The Bed of Proclustes, and it's a bunch of aphorisms.

1045
01:14:41,740 --> 01:14:49,160
And one of the aphorisms in there is bureaucracy is a construct created to maximize the distance

1046
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:54,440
between the decision maker and the risk of the decision.

1047
01:14:54,440 --> 01:15:00,720
And when I think about bureaucracy in something like a fire department or a police department,

1048
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:04,840
I actually took a picture and I sent it to one of my firefighter buddies who's a battalion

1049
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:11,440
chief because he struggles with something similar issue to what you just laid out.

1050
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:17,640
And it's like, you may not be able to change what the organization does, but if you're

1051
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:23,960
at the battalion chief level, you've got guys that you are leading and serving, and you

1052
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:28,000
may not be able to change policy, may not be able to change the organization, but you

1053
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:33,800
can show up for your people as much as you can.

1054
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,760
And you can have their back and you can take care of them.

1055
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:43,160
And I think if everybody simply took care of what they can take care of, I know it seems

1056
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:50,880
like so utopian and idealistic, but if everybody listening to your podcast took it upon themselves,

1057
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:55,560
it goes back to that ownership or that individual responsibility conversation, and you make

1058
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,880
sure that your house is in order and your people are taken care of and that you're leading

1059
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:05,520
your people with that servant attitude and mindset, you're demonstrating that, you're

1060
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:11,920
teaching that to them, you're modeling that behavior, it will impact everybody below you

1061
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,840
and yes, it will rub off on the people above you.

1062
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:20,520
And I think that learning how to lead up the chain of command is every bit as important,

1063
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:26,880
if not more important, than being able to lead down the chain of command.

1064
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:33,560
I think a couple of things to add to that, Ryan kind of teased that a bit, which is the

1065
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:42,840
whole idea that I don't believe in our work, we found that organizations change or systems

1066
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,840
change, they don't, individuals do.

1067
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,440
And it's the drip, drip, drip.

1068
01:16:48,440 --> 01:16:53,720
Of course, that becomes a challenge in organizations that have a lot of turnover, military being

1069
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:59,600
one example, maybe officers don't hold the command for any more than two years to maybe

1070
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:05,120
three, four, max, and then they change, so there's constant change.

1071
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:11,080
And even though we believe that individuals change, so if I change and the people in direct

1072
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:16,480
contact with me or in my proximity change with me and there is a ripple effect, that

1073
01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:22,340
is soon to be taken over by a tsunami of changes and now we have to start over again.

1074
01:17:22,340 --> 01:17:27,640
So there is that challenge, but I really don't believe systems and organizations change at

1075
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:28,640
that level.

1076
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,640
It's at the individual level, so it's at the microcosm level.

1077
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:33,640
That's number one.

1078
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:37,760
And I think, Ryan, you made that, you alluded to that earlier, but I just wanted to hit

1079
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,920
that even harder because we're finding that day in and day out.

1080
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:47,600
The second one, which again, Ryan, you kind of alluded to it, which is the whole idea

1081
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:52,160
of developing those neural pathways, new neural pathways.

1082
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:57,680
When we start and we commit to doing something new, classic example, okay, I'm going to start

1083
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:01,140
with the new year and I'm going to start working out, et cetera, whatever.

1084
01:18:01,140 --> 01:18:04,680
And we default, we falter, whatever.

1085
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:10,840
That sets negative emotions of either guilt or shame or whatever other negative emotions.

1086
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:12,920
Okay, I'm never going to get good at that.

1087
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:13,920
Why even try?

1088
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:15,200
I've already forgotten two days.

1089
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,240
I've skipped two days because the weather was not good.

1090
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:20,540
I wasn't feeling up to going out for my run or whatever.

1091
01:18:20,540 --> 01:18:26,760
But the idea is to stay, the word that Ryan used, I can't emphasize enough, which is grace,

1092
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:30,960
have grace with yourself and have patience and the persistence and discipline.

1093
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:32,720
Okay, that was yesterday.

1094
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:33,720
Today is a whole new day.

1095
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:35,360
I'm going to do it today.

1096
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:42,520
And that commitment to doing it, I think is what separates the ones who stick with it

1097
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:51,040
to get from behavioral modification to habit because I need the patience and grace with

1098
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:56,720
myself, but also with each other as a team, as a leader of a group or whatever the case

1099
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:00,000
may be, is we need both patience and grace.

1100
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:05,040
And then the persistence comes with that.

1101
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:11,960
In medicine, there's a term trending because no patient's recovery is a straight 45 degree

1102
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:12,960
line.

1103
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:14,360
It's ups and downs.

1104
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:18,120
But the overall thing is if you're trending in the right direction, then good, you're

1105
01:19:18,120 --> 01:19:20,220
probably not going to die in the back of my ambulance.

1106
01:19:20,220 --> 01:19:24,880
And if you're trending the opposite way, then oh shit, we need to drive faster.

1107
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:28,120
And this is what I see in a lot of these, whether it's strength and conditioning, whether

1108
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:33,720
it's abstaining from alcohol, whatever someone's goal is, is I think especially now with the

1109
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:38,440
social media perfectionism that's a complete facade is, well, I fell off the wagon, so

1110
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:39,800
I'm a piece of shit.

1111
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,500
Instead of going, all right, I had a drink yesterday.

1112
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:45,200
It's not ideal, but let me get back onto this path again.

1113
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,980
And overall, those peaks and valleys, you're going to find yourself in another place.

1114
01:19:49,980 --> 01:19:54,680
And I think that understanding that, and I use the term grace all the time, giving yourself

1115
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:55,680
some grace.

1116
01:19:55,680 --> 01:20:01,240
Okay, you missed the gym, you ate a cheeseburger, whatever deviated you from that perfect line.

1117
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:02,240
It's okay.

1118
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:05,720
As long as you're still tethered to it, as long as you can clamber back onto it, then

1119
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:08,500
just keep going because the alternative is you stop.

1120
01:20:08,500 --> 01:20:13,220
And I think just don't think people have enough faith in themselves to forgive themselves

1121
01:20:13,220 --> 01:20:16,240
to get back on that track and just keep climbing.

1122
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:20,000
No, I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.

1123
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:24,520
And I bet you, correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan, but what I'm seeing and hearing and what you

1124
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:30,720
said, James, is the whole idea of there is the initial emotional gut reaction of, oh,

1125
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:31,720
I'm a piece of shit.

1126
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:33,400
I didn't stick to my schedule or whatever.

1127
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:39,400
So therefore I'm going to stop or I'm not good enough or whatever the case may be versus

1128
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:44,760
your prefrontal cortex comes in and says, okay, I had one drink and I'm going to get

1129
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,040
back to my discipline again.

1130
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:54,040
And I didn't really, so the exaggeration of the initial reaction can be tempered by, well,

1131
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:58,400
let's look at the data, what happened really, and then continue moving forward.

1132
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:05,340
I think in your previous response, Hassan, before James put that one out there, I was

1133
01:21:05,340 --> 01:21:12,600
thinking about how important some of the terms are that we talk about with folks in our class,

1134
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:18,800
you know, optimism, the importance of language, and how that impacts internal dialogue.

1135
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:22,060
And then, you know, as soon as James said that, I mean, all three of those things are

1136
01:21:22,060 --> 01:21:23,060
so important there.

1137
01:21:23,060 --> 01:21:26,660
I mean, especially language and internal dialogue.

1138
01:21:26,660 --> 01:21:32,000
Like you said, there's that immediate limbic response, lizard brain reaction of, oh, I'm

1139
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:33,000
a piece of shit.

1140
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,000
I'm this.

1141
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:38,200
And just listen to that from a language standpoint, you know, the things that both of you guys

1142
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:43,520
know and I'm sure many of your podcast listeners are aware, I mean, A, it's fixed mindset,

1143
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:44,520
right?

1144
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:48,440
And so from a developmental phrasing, we would want to say, you know, instead of saying something

1145
01:21:48,440 --> 01:21:55,240
like, I always give in to pizza, or donuts are my weakness, it would be something like

1146
01:21:55,240 --> 01:22:01,480
in the past, pizza is a temptation that I have struggled with.

1147
01:22:01,480 --> 01:22:09,820
Even in that simple, what seems like semantics, mental gymnastics switch, we've gone from

1148
01:22:09,820 --> 01:22:11,760
a fixed mindset to a growth mindset.

1149
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:17,480
It's developmentally phrased, meaning that it gives us an opportunity to change the future.

1150
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:22,960
Whereas if I continue to say, you know, I can't hit a moving target, or I always give

1151
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:30,120
into this, then we're signing up for a future in which that is our reality.

1152
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:36,680
And so by changing the language, we've also created an internal dialogue and narrative.

1153
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:41,360
And look, that narrative plays in our head on a loop over and over and over again, it's

1154
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:43,140
the stories we tell ourselves.

1155
01:22:43,140 --> 01:22:51,040
And if we can get in front of that, and use language that allows us a different future,

1156
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:55,000
most people have no idea how important and how powerful that is.

1157
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:56,680
Absolutely, Ryan.

1158
01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:00,920
And to your point, James, what you said earlier, okay, I'm a piece of shit.

1159
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:06,280
There is difference between I'm a piece of shit versus I made a shitty decision.

1160
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,680
Huge difference.

1161
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:17,120
And the way I think of myself is gonna help me propel forward or stay stuck in the mindset

1162
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,600
of well, okay, this is me, I'm that way.

1163
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:24,840
I'm not gonna change.

1164
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:31,480
One of the things that I've seen, and I love that term paralysis by analysis, a local department

1165
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:34,840
here that protects my family.

1166
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,480
Recently I was with a bunch of their battalion chiefs, we went to Echelon Front, Jocko Willink's

1167
01:23:38,480 --> 01:23:42,840
organization, great, great presentation, great weekend.

1168
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:48,200
But since then, I've been pushing from all angles to try and get the fire service as

1169
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:53,000
a whole to look at their work week and give their first responders or firefighter paramedics

1170
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,960
in this case, the rest and recovery they need between the shifts.

1171
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:00,880
And you said earlier about an organization doesn't change, the people change.

1172
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:02,400
The job hasn't changed.

1173
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:07,120
When I came on as a firefighter 20 years ago, we were firefighters and we were EMTs and

1174
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:09,880
or paramedics in Florida.

1175
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:14,680
And back then I was testing, for example, Anaheim, California when I worked out there

1176
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:19,600
against a thousand people in the sit down written test that had resumes as thick as

1177
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:20,600
the yellow pages.

1178
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,720
I mean, it was so competitive.

1179
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:26,720
And now fast forward, I mean, you know, George Ryan, one of my friends from LA SWAT, I mean,

1180
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:28,880
we've had this conversation numerous times.

1181
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:33,280
Now, police, fire, EMS, they're struggling to hire.

1182
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:36,800
And as you talked about earlier, now when you have a pool of candidates, you're taking

1183
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:37,800
all of them.

1184
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:42,600
And the reality is that means you're taking the great ones and the awful ones.

1185
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,200
And those are going to rise through the ranks one day.

1186
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:50,080
So where I feel like, you know, you're what you're doing here and the classes that you

1187
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:55,000
offer are so important is you're actually giving these people a way to get away from.

1188
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:59,620
I mean, I use the word cowardice and it is really, it sounds very harsh.

1189
01:24:59,620 --> 01:25:05,600
But the reality is if you're doing nothing as recruitment is just tanking as first responders

1190
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:11,520
dying from cancer and suicide and all the things we need, we need a push for courage

1191
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:12,520
again.

1192
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:15,000
And, you know, the tools that you're offering, I think, are bringing that.

1193
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:18,840
And one of the things that I see that's so detrimental when it comes to first responder

1194
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:25,440
mental health is less, you know, lesser the nasty calls that we all see and more so the

1195
01:25:25,440 --> 01:25:27,760
organizational stress and betrayal.

1196
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:28,760
So it's not the job.

1197
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:29,760
It's not the organization.

1198
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:32,440
Like you said, it's the people within.

1199
01:25:32,440 --> 01:25:37,240
So what I think is exciting about this is it's really challenging those people.

1200
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:41,320
And I would again, I would argue everyone in the, you know, my level, the firefighter

1201
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:46,960
all the way through to chiefs and then city and county to look in the mirror and say,

1202
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:50,960
what is it about me that isn't fighting for my people?

1203
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:56,400
And I think by separating these two elements that you talked about will take away that

1204
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:01,160
shame and hopefully empower the good leaders and then force the bad ones to step aside

1205
01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:03,080
if they're not willing to put the work in.

1206
01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:04,400
But it is the same job.

1207
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:09,400
And the way that we fix this recruitment crisis is we address the things that are wrong.

1208
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:14,360
And in 2024, a young candidate for police fire EMS can look at everything.

1209
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:18,360
They can look at all the hero stuff, but then they can also look at the divorces and this

1210
01:26:18,360 --> 01:26:23,280
cancers and the suicides and the pay and the work week and go, I'm going to go work for

1211
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:24,800
Amazon instead.

1212
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:28,920
So we are, you can doom and gloom it about how bad it is because it is bad, but we're

1213
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:35,400
also at the beginning of a potential paradigm shift where if, for example, using what you're

1214
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:40,560
teaching that we can actually finally have the courage to address the things that are

1215
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:45,600
and have always been wrong about our professions, we can go back to the lines around the police

1216
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:50,000
and fire stations of young, excited people wanting to put on the uniform.

1217
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,600
No, I fully agree.

1218
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:56,360
And I think the difference is when you give them time for rest and relaxation, what are

1219
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:57,840
they doing with that time?

1220
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:00,000
Are they really, are they escaping?

1221
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:05,960
Is that a mode of escapism or is it really to rest and recover?

1222
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:12,240
And what are you doing mentally and emotionally besides the physical to really get into that

1223
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:14,720
recovery piece?

1224
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:18,520
I think one critical thing that you said there is courage, courage.

1225
01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:24,160
I don't think, and I'm borrowing here from Brene Brown's work, courage can not happen

1226
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:32,800
without a sense of vulnerability, vulnerability is the gateway to courage, number one.

1227
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:37,400
One of the things I discovered in prior to meeting Ryan when I was working with the military

1228
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,560
and it was not on resilience at all.

1229
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,460
It was really developing their leadership skills.

1230
01:27:44,460 --> 01:27:47,840
And then I get people saying, well, can I talk to you about something, sir?

1231
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:48,840
Sure.

1232
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:54,060
And they start going down that route and I find that it's getting close to therapy.

1233
01:27:54,060 --> 01:27:58,400
And I say, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a psychiatrist.

1234
01:27:58,400 --> 01:27:59,400
Are you aware of them?

1235
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:02,080
They say, absolutely, but the conversation helps me.

1236
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:06,360
Okay, as long as we know that we've drawn the boundaries, happy to have the conversation

1237
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:07,920
with you.

1238
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:13,160
And people would come out and say flat out, I've been diagnosed with PTSD or I know I

1239
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:18,040
have it and I struggle with all the signs and symptoms.

1240
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:22,920
However, I don't want a formal diagnosis in my file because it would stop my career short

1241
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:24,760
of what I want to do.

1242
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:30,540
And the more we had conversations and to help people think differently about themselves

1243
01:28:30,540 --> 01:28:34,280
and how they're engaging things is where it's at.

1244
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:38,520
That really, so I think Ryan's in my work is to help them develop the resilience so

1245
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:45,840
it doesn't have to get to therapy or worse.

1246
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:56,080
And I was talking about the numbers with Academy applicants and hiring that was told straight

1247
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:57,560
to me by George Ryan.

1248
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:00,920
So when I said my buddy had just retired and then you brought him up.

1249
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,880
I love George, George is such an awesome guy.

1250
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:07,640
And I've learned a ton from him.

1251
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:17,920
And I just, I think the other thing is you were talking through the SS Han said, it's

1252
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:23,360
really about understanding that individuals are the ones driving change and that drive

1253
01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:25,120
change.

1254
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:31,360
And James, the way you phrase some of what you just said made me think of a question.

1255
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:37,400
There's a book called, it's either critical conversations or crucial conversations.

1256
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:39,640
And there's a question in there.

1257
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:48,640
It goes, what am I pretending not to notice about my role in this situation?

1258
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:55,080
And I think if folks who may be frustrated with or dealing with a lot of the things that

1259
01:29:55,080 --> 01:30:04,960
we're talking about, were to ask that question to themselves and honestly look for answers.

1260
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:11,640
I think it'd be impossible not to come up with at least a few actionable items that

1261
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:18,480
they can do to have an immediate impact on the people that they interact with on a daily

1262
01:30:18,480 --> 01:30:20,380
basis.

1263
01:30:20,380 --> 01:30:25,000
And as we've talked about earlier, that's where this really has to start.

1264
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:33,160
And again, if you can't, let's don't sit around and hope and pray and wish that the

1265
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:38,720
organization changed, let's take action into our own hands and make sure that we're doing

1266
01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:45,920
everything we can to be the best leaders, the best teammates that we can be.

1267
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:52,280
I think what's really been eye opening for me is I always stayed at the rank of firefighter.

1268
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:54,880
I only have an exercise physiology degree.

1269
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:58,920
I'm not downplaying my achievements, but I'm not a thought leader in this space and I'm

1270
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:02,000
not a bugle chief or anything.

1271
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,280
But over and over again, what I see is an element of false economy.

1272
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:10,400
And it's the opposite of that phrase, plant the seed of a tree under which the shade you'll

1273
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:13,080
never know.

1274
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:17,840
It's built, whether you're a union president, whether you're a fire chief or a city or council

1275
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:22,600
member, more often than not, the focus is, well, let me look good in this fiscal year

1276
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,840
so then I can get that promotion or I can get reelected.

1277
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,500
And that has come at the detriment of the wellbeing, not only of the first responders,

1278
01:31:29,500 --> 01:31:31,520
but the community that we serve.

1279
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:36,560
And even if you look at the fiscal point of view, long-term, if you actually added another

1280
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:41,600
shift and again, to Hassan's point, absolutely, if you fill the vacancies, these men and women

1281
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:46,280
can't take up all the overtime and they're forced to go home and disconnect and relax.

1282
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:49,760
And I've always said this, and then start something on the side.

1283
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:53,320
Whatever your passion project is, make that an entrepreneurial project.

1284
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:56,080
Now you've got an entire different tribe.

1285
01:31:56,080 --> 01:32:00,240
But when you look at the financial element of breaking first responders, what we're doing

1286
01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:04,280
at the moment, there is so much money downstream and I'm not an economist.

1287
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:09,160
And if I can see it, people that are trained with money should be able to see it.

1288
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:10,640
So there is no downside.

1289
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,560
And this is why this conversation is so important.

1290
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:19,440
All that's really needed is that vulnerability, that courage, that selflessness to put your

1291
01:32:19,440 --> 01:32:25,160
hand up and say, hey, I'm not going to look, seem very good to you at the moment, but this

1292
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:29,200
is a long-term impact that we're going to have on our health and our mental health,

1293
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:33,020
on our ability to recruit, on the way we serve our community.

1294
01:32:33,020 --> 01:32:35,840
We just need to invest a little bit more now.

1295
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:40,400
And so that false economy, and even I had Tulsi Gabbard on the show, it's the same nationally.

1296
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:45,040
We have 70% obese and overweight in this country, 70% of Americans.

1297
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:46,040
We have an opioid crisis.

1298
01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:49,520
We consume 75% of the world's opioids.

1299
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:54,200
Where is that long-term investment that we're going to improve health, especially after

1300
01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:56,440
a virus that shut the world down?

1301
01:32:56,440 --> 01:33:02,800
So that false economy seems to always be coupled with the fear to actually make a courageous

1302
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:03,800
decision.

1303
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:10,520
I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that.

1304
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:14,920
Go ahead, Ryan.

1305
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:26,960
I guess from a larger perspective, I don't want to put my tin foil hat on.

1306
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:39,800
So I think I'll just say that if we're allowing fear to guide our decisions, then we're certainly

1307
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:44,960
not acting or operating out of a place of love.

1308
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:51,440
We're not operating out of our values and certainly not out of alignment with our goals.

1309
01:33:51,440 --> 01:33:59,860
And so if we catch ourselves allowing fear to drive our decisions, it's just another

1310
01:33:59,860 --> 01:34:07,120
opportunity to step back, have that awareness, realize awareness creates choice, and choose

1311
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:13,680
a path that if we put ourselves in the future and we look back, we'll be proud of the way

1312
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:20,760
that we handled ourselves and the decisions that we made in that moment.

1313
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:25,000
But you mentioned something there, James, that alludes to something Ryan and I work

1314
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:27,400
on quite a bit, which is the work of resilience.

1315
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:33,880
And we found that resilience, one of the components that feed into individual resilience, is a

1316
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:38,920
sense of social responsibility and the sense of social responsibility, meaning how I benefit

1317
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:42,880
the community that I'm part of, whatever that community is.

1318
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:46,000
And can I look beyond myself?

1319
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:52,620
And many law enforcement firefighters and so forth tend to think it's ingrained in me

1320
01:34:52,620 --> 01:34:56,440
to have a sense of social responsibility because I'm helping and serving the community.

1321
01:34:56,440 --> 01:34:59,940
Yes, but what are you doing to the community that you're part of?

1322
01:34:59,940 --> 01:35:03,440
Your shift, your battalion, your group of people.

1323
01:35:03,440 --> 01:35:04,720
What are you doing there?

1324
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:10,520
And then are you creating venues where you can actually go out there and do something

1325
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:15,140
for them or for some other community you hold dear to yourself?

1326
01:35:15,140 --> 01:35:19,040
And there are two important facets to that.

1327
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:24,760
One is that, again, neuroscience have proven time and, again, there is so much benefit

1328
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:27,740
to giving than to receiving.

1329
01:35:27,740 --> 01:35:32,740
They can even get it down to the chemistry and the biochemistry that happens to our bodies

1330
01:35:32,740 --> 01:35:38,160
when we do an act of kindness or giving of myself to the collective community I'm part

1331
01:35:38,160 --> 01:35:39,160
of.

1332
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:41,200
So there are benefits of that.

1333
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:44,020
But there's also a selfish aspect of it.

1334
01:35:44,020 --> 01:35:49,440
Sometimes we're sitting here wallowing in whatever it is that is going on with me.

1335
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:55,120
The minute I compare it to what's going on with you, my aperture opens up.

1336
01:35:55,120 --> 01:35:58,560
It's like, oh, wow, my situation isn't so bad after all.

1337
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:02,680
So it gives a sense of perspective, I think.

1338
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:08,720
And I don't know where I'm going with that thought, but if we can harness the whole idea

1339
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:18,400
of attention on self, but there is an equal force in attention and giving to others.

1340
01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:25,760
So if I'm part of us here, a group, you all are helping me, but how can I help your career?

1341
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,240
How can I help grow your career, your interests?

1342
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:30,240
Your hobbies, whatever.

1343
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:37,000
So that there is an equal amount of focus and attention on me and maintaining my own

1344
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:41,840
well-being and growth and development, et cetera, but equal attention to I'm part of

1345
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:46,220
a community and what have I given to that community or how am I planning on leaving

1346
01:36:46,220 --> 01:36:49,920
it a better community than when I found it to begin with.

1347
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:52,000
There is value in both.

1348
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:58,840
And I think that value is reaped in many studies about resilience in general.

1349
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:04,220
The resilient tend to have that focus and attention that is balanced between self and

1350
01:37:04,220 --> 01:37:05,560
also other.

1351
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:06,560
Absolutely.

1352
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:11,480
Well, Ryan, I want to get to the book and then obviously we'll go to all the ways that

1353
01:37:11,480 --> 01:37:16,760
you guys offer people listening to actually start developing themselves, whether it's

1354
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:19,480
individually or organizationally.

1355
01:37:19,480 --> 01:37:23,800
What was it that made you decide to write Fuck Your Feelings and then kind of walk me

1356
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:29,160
through or walk people listening through what they'll find in the covers?

1357
01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:31,840
Wow.

1358
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:42,960
So I think as we were talking through some of my background and sort of bio early on,

1359
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:51,160
I was in New York until the end of 2009, moved back to my hometown and in 2012 opened up

1360
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:52,280
my own gym.

1361
01:37:52,280 --> 01:38:00,360
So I owned a gym from 2012 to 2016 and that's when I sold the gym and had that transition

1362
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:10,120
of I'm no longer fascinated by programming and was a lot more curious about people's

1363
01:38:10,120 --> 01:38:14,240
internal wiring and programming.

1364
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:21,200
And for the next couple of years, I had the opportunity to work with and interview, talk

1365
01:38:21,200 --> 01:38:31,280
to what I would call high performers on one side, Olympic and professional athletes, tier

1366
01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:36,680
one operators, anything that you might consider a high performer.

1367
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:44,320
And then on the other side, I was able to talk to and work with lab coats, academics.

1368
01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:51,560
And so I had the theory of high performance and then the application of high performance.

1369
01:38:51,560 --> 01:39:02,640
And the book was sort of an attempt to synthesize that information and to answer my unending

1370
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:08,040
question of why are people's actions not aligned with their goals?

1371
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:12,480
What makes some people successful and others not?

1372
01:39:12,480 --> 01:39:20,640
So getting the application side from these high performers and being able to overlay

1373
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:26,200
that with the theory and say, okay, well, they may not know terms like choice architecture

1374
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:31,520
or cognitive dissonance or whatever the academics are calling it, but they're doing certain

1375
01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:32,520
things.

1376
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:43,240
So I had the opportunity to speak in Stockholm actually at a big conference in May of 2017,

1377
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:46,440
16, 17.

1378
01:39:46,440 --> 01:39:49,440
I don't even know anymore.

1379
01:39:49,440 --> 01:39:55,760
And so I gave a talk and it was on states versus traits.

1380
01:39:55,760 --> 01:40:01,840
I presented that research from DeMacio about 95% of our decisions being made based on how

1381
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:03,240
we feel in any given moment.

1382
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:08,640
And one of the other speakers was in attendance for my talk and came up to me afterwards and

1383
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:10,760
said, you know, this is really, there's something here.

1384
01:40:10,760 --> 01:40:12,000
You should do more with this.

1385
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:16,760
And he happened to have a book deal and was meeting with his literary agent in New York

1386
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:20,120
City like a month or two later.

1387
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:26,920
And so on the way home from flight home, it was like a nine hour flight or something.

1388
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:30,360
And so I turned that talk into an outline for the book.

1389
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:35,200
And then over the next couple of months came up with a business or I'm sorry, a book proposal,

1390
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:41,240
which is if you've ever written a book proposal was basically a business plan for a book and

1391
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,280
met with that agent.

1392
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:48,480
And the guy basically told me, you know, hey, you don't have a big enough following.

1393
01:40:48,480 --> 01:40:54,760
So go on a two year PR tour and build a bigger following and then come back to us and we'll

1394
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:58,480
get you a book advance that is a number that you might like.

1395
01:40:58,480 --> 01:41:02,760
I was like, well, I'm just going to write the book because if I'm going to go on a two

1396
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,440
year PR tour, I'm just going to sell the book myself.

1397
01:41:05,440 --> 01:41:10,240
I'm not going to hope that, you know, my following will be big enough for you to give me permission

1398
01:41:10,240 --> 01:41:11,640
to do it.

1399
01:41:11,640 --> 01:41:19,160
And so I, you know, fleshed it out, wrote the book through 2017 and then it came out

1400
01:41:19,160 --> 01:41:20,680
in February of 2018.

1401
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:26,480
And so, you know, again, it was sort of an attempt to answer that question.

1402
01:41:26,480 --> 01:41:32,480
You know, what is the thing that is going to help us be successful?

1403
01:41:32,480 --> 01:41:41,520
And I think in terms of what people can expect, like I said, it's sort of the, it's an attempt

1404
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:47,200
to synthesize the theory and the application of high performance.

1405
01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:51,680
You know, my working title was the neuroscience of high performance, but I don't think anybody

1406
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:54,200
would have picked that up off the shelf.

1407
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:58,800
And given Demacios research and kind of that overarching theme of, you know, not allowing

1408
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:05,400
our fleeting transient emotional state to drive major decisions, you know, just lent

1409
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:07,720
itself to a title like, fuck your feelings.

1410
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:11,040
Yeah, definitely two types of people reaching for that.

1411
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:16,680
Well, I'll tell you what, that title actually, Hassan always tells the story about how we

1412
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:18,440
got connected.

1413
01:42:18,440 --> 01:42:23,280
He found my book in a bookstore in an airport and the title triggered him.

1414
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:27,760
He picked it up, flipped through it, read it, liked it, and that's how we ended up getting

1415
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:28,760
connected.

1416
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:35,560
So, well, Hassan, just quickly then talk to me about a reader's perspective of the book.

1417
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:39,880
So a reader's perspective of the book, I think really, I mean, the way I discovered the book

1418
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:45,480
was, is, I think, although I don't want to be egotistical, is how most people come into

1419
01:42:45,480 --> 01:42:48,840
this book if they haven't heard about it before.

1420
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:53,760
Because I mean, in my work, in my field, emotional and social intelligence was an integral part

1421
01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:57,840
in what we teach and what we coach on, et cetera.

1422
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:00,920
And we did it from a leadership perspective.

1423
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:04,960
And right about the time that the book came out, I came upon it in the airport.

1424
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:10,360
I had forgotten to pick up any book from home and absentmindedly I was like, ah, I forgot

1425
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:12,480
the book I was supposed to read on the plane.

1426
01:43:12,480 --> 01:43:17,040
So let me walk into the bookstore and get another book or get a book or whatever.

1427
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:21,240
And I walked in the bookstore and I see Ryan's book sitting on the shelf and immediately

1428
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:24,600
I was like, ah, yet another person dissing EQ.

1429
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:30,640
So I got enough interested enough to pick it up and see how his dissing EQ or emotional

1430
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:31,800
intelligence.

1431
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,100
And the more I flipped through the book, I was like, I'll be darned.

1432
01:43:34,100 --> 01:43:35,100
He got me.

1433
01:43:35,100 --> 01:43:38,520
He really is talking about the importance of emotional and social intelligence.

1434
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:42,060
So that's the book I bought and I started reading it.

1435
01:43:42,060 --> 01:43:46,400
And many of the military personnel, fire department personnel and law enforcement personnel I work

1436
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:54,040
with, I had recommended Ryan's book to until we basically one of my good friends who was

1437
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:59,440
reading it, he ran into a relative of Ryan's at a party and he was talking about the book

1438
01:43:59,440 --> 01:44:03,480
and they said, well, would you like to read the author or would you like to meet the author?

1439
01:44:03,480 --> 01:44:05,460
And Pete was like, sure.

1440
01:44:05,460 --> 01:44:06,980
And he met Ryan.

1441
01:44:06,980 --> 01:44:11,600
And then ultimately he goes, he calls me one day and he goes, Hassan, would you like to

1442
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:12,600
meet Ryan Muncy?

1443
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:15,000
I was like, Ryan Muncy who wrote the book?

1444
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:16,800
I was, he was like, yes.

1445
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:19,120
The book I recommended to you, Pete, yes.

1446
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:20,400
Do you want to meet him?

1447
01:44:20,400 --> 01:44:21,400
Absolutely.

1448
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:27,680
So we met and we talked and met a couple of times and talked and really our methods were

1449
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:32,640
parallel enough that I ultimately got the courage.

1450
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:35,920
I was like, Hey, Ryan, do you want to partner on doing some work?

1451
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:41,000
Because in light of COVID, we had a lot of demand for work on resilience.

1452
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:47,120
And I really have always believed that resilience is rooted in mastering that art of emotional

1453
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:49,080
and social intelligence.

1454
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:52,440
And that's how our roads, kind of our paths crossed.

1455
01:44:52,440 --> 01:44:56,840
And we started collaborating on work together because we're both passionate about the topic

1456
01:44:56,840 --> 01:45:00,840
and passionate about the communities we teach it to.

1457
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:05,760
I've used the word resilience a lot recently in a different context, but I think it's parallel

1458
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:07,560
with probably the way that you're teaching.

1459
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:13,360
But when you look at the mental health conversation, the first responder professions, 10 years ago,

1460
01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:14,360
we were beating the drum.

1461
01:45:14,360 --> 01:45:15,640
We're starting to beat the drum.

1462
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:17,800
It's the stigma, smash the stigma, smash the stigma.

1463
01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:21,960
A decade later, that same drum is still being beaten.

1464
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:27,040
And the problem I have with this conversation is there's no hope in smashing the stigma.

1465
01:45:27,040 --> 01:45:31,900
There's no hope with quote unquote, dealing or living with your PTSD.

1466
01:45:31,900 --> 01:45:38,040
But after I've had almost like a thousand episodes now, you see these common denominators

1467
01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:40,280
surface over and over and over again.

1468
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:44,920
And these are all actionable elements, everything from unaddressed childhood trauma, organizational

1469
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:51,120
stress, sleep deprivation in my profession, all these areas that you truly can address.

1470
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:56,600
And then now you look at the 2024 mental health toolbox, finally, thanks to, I'd argue, the

1471
01:45:56,600 --> 01:46:01,520
SEALs predominantly, the psychedelic conversation is now in there as well.

1472
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:04,960
And literally a friend of mine who's big in the strength and conditioning world is off

1473
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:09,480
for a psychedelic retreat this weekend because he's tried all the other things and it didn't

1474
01:46:09,480 --> 01:46:10,480
work.

1475
01:46:10,480 --> 01:46:17,800
So where I feel another area that the word resilience can be applied is if you are, I

1476
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:23,280
mean, anyone, but in my world, the first responder, and you are going to go through the crucible

1477
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:29,240
of finding your specific toolbox, there is a more resilient version of yourself waiting

1478
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:30,720
on the other side.

1479
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:36,040
So I think, what I've seen in the past, resilience training and the fire service is, we'll put

1480
01:46:36,040 --> 01:46:39,920
you in gear and put you through a mask and then we'll play a tape of people screaming

1481
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:46,820
and it's like this heightened extra sensory experience.

1482
01:46:46,820 --> 01:46:51,720
But I think we're real resilient, or not the only place, but one opportunity for resilience

1483
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:56,800
is to literally figure out the things that you haven't addressed yet, find that beautiful

1484
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:02,160
toolbox, work your way through, because how many people have come out the other side of

1485
01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:06,820
addiction, suicide, and now they're these beacons of light, they're these incredible

1486
01:47:06,820 --> 01:47:07,820
human beings.

1487
01:47:07,820 --> 01:47:12,580
And I think that that hope conversation and that resilience element of your mental health

1488
01:47:12,580 --> 01:47:18,080
journey needs to be in the mental health conversation, especially in the first responder professions.

1489
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:19,440
Absolutely.

1490
01:47:19,440 --> 01:47:24,480
And I would say there is, I mean, we all face trauma, there's capital T trauma and little

1491
01:47:24,480 --> 01:47:25,780
T trauma.

1492
01:47:25,780 --> 01:47:29,840
And I remember the first time I watched The King's Speech, a movie that came out and it

1493
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:36,480
was about King George VI Stammer and how the person who really was discovering the effects

1494
01:47:36,480 --> 01:47:44,180
of war on the soldiers that come back and how the King's Stammer was a result of a maybe

1495
01:47:44,180 --> 01:47:46,400
little T trauma.

1496
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:51,800
And I don't know, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist who designated little T or capital

1497
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:53,800
T trauma, but nonetheless trauma.

1498
01:47:53,800 --> 01:48:00,360
And I think all of us face challenges in life that if we're incapable of dealing with, it

1499
01:48:00,360 --> 01:48:01,680
has ramifications.

1500
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:08,600
But when we develop enough resilience to face those situations, we could either bounce back

1501
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:12,480
or better yet, even come out stronger, come out stronger.

1502
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:17,380
I mean, that to me is a fascinating topic that I don't think we have to be formally

1503
01:48:17,380 --> 01:48:23,800
diagnosed to really learn the importance of mental well-being and just the ability to

1504
01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:27,280
show up resilient.

1505
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:33,720
And that bit about being able to potentially come out stronger is an aspect of this that

1506
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:38,960
we talk about at the beginning of the programs that Hassan and I do.

1507
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:44,240
And again, it's another nod to Taleb and the book Anti-Fragile, right?

1508
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:47,560
And so James, you were nodding earlier, familiarity.

1509
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:52,200
So if anyone has read that book, if you haven't, it's a phenomenal book.

1510
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:58,320
Anti-Fragile Systems That Gain From Disorder, I think is the subtitle.

1511
01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:07,800
But in the book, he talks about a lighthouse, a storm comes and maybe, let's say it takes

1512
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,120
out a house, a traditional house, right?

1513
01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:12,840
And so that house we would consider fragile.

1514
01:49:12,840 --> 01:49:17,880
The lighthouse remains unscathed, unchanged.

1515
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:21,280
And so it is what we might term resilient.

1516
01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:22,620
It's steadfast.

1517
01:49:22,620 --> 01:49:27,860
And so on the other side of chaos, it is unchanged.

1518
01:49:27,860 --> 01:49:35,660
Systems that are anti-fragile are actually ones that gain or grow, improve due to exposure

1519
01:49:35,660 --> 01:49:37,540
to chaos.

1520
01:49:37,540 --> 01:49:45,880
And so we use that as sort of three different tiers for what can happen when we are exposed

1521
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:48,880
to chaos or disorder, trauma, right?

1522
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:58,860
And so the idea with resilience is at minimum, we would like to provide tools in a toolbox

1523
01:49:58,860 --> 01:50:06,440
that can help folks get at the very least back to baseline post exposure to chaos,

1524
01:50:06,440 --> 01:50:14,340
trauma, disorder with the, I don't want to say expectation, but with the ability to exceed

1525
01:50:14,340 --> 01:50:18,840
baseline and to grow or develop because of that.

1526
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:25,240
And so that would be where that concept of anti-fragility ties in.

1527
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:30,200
The other thing, as you were talking, James, we're talking about smashing the stigma.

1528
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:35,300
Hassan mentioned earlier, people come to him and they say, hey, I like having this conversation

1529
01:50:35,300 --> 01:50:44,240
with you because I don't have to have PTSD written in my file.

1530
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:47,640
And they don't want to do that because it's going to disrupt their career.

1531
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:56,920
Well, I mean, to your point about smashing the stigma, as long as that designation in

1532
01:50:56,920 --> 01:51:02,400
your file has a negative impact on your career, the negative stigma will always be there.

1533
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:08,560
And so from an administrative or organizational standpoint, that's something that absolutely

1534
01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:10,680
has to change.

1535
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:15,600
Had the social layer and pressure of even masculinity and some of the concepts around

1536
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:18,160
masculinity and what does that mean?

1537
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:22,200
So I mean, we can take this conversation in a variety of different ways, but smashing

1538
01:51:22,200 --> 01:51:25,280
that stigma is critical.

1539
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:29,800
I've said this a lot on the show recently, that term toxic masculinity that, you know,

1540
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:33,520
I understand, I think how it was originally meant, but you shouldn't tell your girl that

1541
01:51:33,520 --> 01:51:35,320
she needs to wear a dress and wear pink.

1542
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:39,780
You know, if she wants to get in the mud and she's still a girl that likes to do those

1543
01:51:39,780 --> 01:51:41,280
things as well.

1544
01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:44,800
But obviously it's been projected in many, many different ways.

1545
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:50,360
But I think the real toxic masculinity is within masculinity or the two dimensional

1546
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:54,160
1980s action hero version of masculinity.

1547
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:59,660
And it's done a disservice to my generation, certainly the ones prior, where you have these

1548
01:51:59,660 --> 01:52:04,240
firefighters and police officers and we forget that when we went into the profession, we

1549
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:05,800
were the yin and the yang.

1550
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:09,480
It was kindness and compassion and service that led us into uniform.

1551
01:52:09,480 --> 01:52:13,080
And then we get in and we get beat down by the job and sleep deprivation and we become

1552
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:17,960
a white circle and we've totally forgotten that feminine side.

1553
01:52:17,960 --> 01:52:20,880
And then we can come out the other side, now it's your identity and you're looking around

1554
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:23,160
the world, you know, lost.

1555
01:52:23,160 --> 01:52:30,000
So reminding ourselves that we have to give ourselves that same, you know, kindness, compassion,

1556
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:34,240
grace that we talked about earlier is so, so important, you know, in women as well in

1557
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:39,040
first responders, especially in men that were raised the, you know, Rambo and Schwarzenegger

1558
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:41,280
were the epitome of masculinity.

1559
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:42,280
All right.

1560
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:44,840
Well, then you mentioned the programs.

1561
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:48,800
Where can people find the programs that you offer and then what is the kind of spectrum

1562
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:51,540
that's available?

1563
01:52:51,540 --> 01:53:02,080
So where they can find it, they can come to the website and our website is ok-online.com

1564
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:07,680
and they can just type search for resilience and it will come up with the resilience work.

1565
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:14,080
The three programs Ryan and I work on are scaled basically and we try to customize as

1566
01:53:14,080 --> 01:53:17,880
much as possible with the availability of time, funding, et cetera.

1567
01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:20,940
So we've got the bare minimum is the one day program.

1568
01:53:20,940 --> 01:53:26,620
The one day program can give you exposure to what are we talking about when we're talking

1569
01:53:26,620 --> 01:53:32,240
resilience, what resilience is rooted in the whole concept of emotional and social intelligence

1570
01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:37,160
and expanding your bandwidth and your ability to deal with situations.

1571
01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:44,120
Add to it, can we identify one, maybe two, maximum three areas of my emotional and social

1572
01:53:44,120 --> 01:53:49,280
intelligence that it would behoove me to develop in order to show up more resilient in the

1573
01:53:49,280 --> 01:53:50,280
world?

1574
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:51,640
So we have 26 skills.

1575
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:55,160
Ryan, would you add anything to that one day design?

1576
01:53:55,160 --> 01:54:01,800
No, I think you nailed that.

1577
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:05,480
The three day is very similar.

1578
01:54:05,480 --> 01:54:10,080
When Hassan and I created these, we realized that time constraints would be kind of our

1579
01:54:10,080 --> 01:54:11,080
biggest issue.

1580
01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:16,480
And so what we've done is we've created a program that can be collapsed or expanded

1581
01:54:16,480 --> 01:54:18,880
based on the available time.

1582
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:23,260
And so the three day version expands on the one day version.

1583
01:54:23,260 --> 01:54:27,760
We actually build in the assessments starting with that one.

1584
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:36,400
So the emotional intelligence and hardiness resilience gauge are involved in the three

1585
01:54:36,400 --> 01:54:37,640
day version.

1586
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:41,920
And then we have, we call it a three month version, but it's an expanded version.

1587
01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:47,920
It can be two, three, four months that varies with logistics, people's location.

1588
01:54:47,920 --> 01:54:56,280
And that one has the ability for actually not the ability, we kind of say require the

1589
01:54:56,280 --> 01:55:02,160
first and last bookends there to be in person.

1590
01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:06,200
And then some of that can be online and virtual as well.

1591
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:11,040
But that one really affords the opportunity for follow up and implementation as well as

1592
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:12,840
some individual coaching.

1593
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:13,840
Beautiful.

1594
01:55:13,840 --> 01:55:15,260
We'll stay in with you, Ryan.

1595
01:55:15,260 --> 01:55:19,240
Where can people find the book and where are the best places to find you online or social

1596
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:21,860
media?

1597
01:55:21,860 --> 01:55:27,200
So the book is available on Audible and Amazon.

1598
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,200
If you buy it on my website, you can get a signed copy.

1599
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:31,920
My website is just ryanmuncie.com.

1600
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:40,140
I'd say that's probably the best place to find and follow me as I am continuing to delete

1601
01:55:40,140 --> 01:55:41,940
social media accounts.

1602
01:55:41,940 --> 01:55:45,500
So none of them are on my phone.

1603
01:55:45,500 --> 01:55:48,320
Some of the accounts are still there, but they're not on my phone.

1604
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:51,440
So I don't know how much longer they'll stay online.

1605
01:55:51,440 --> 01:55:56,440
But website and you can contact me through there.

1606
01:55:56,440 --> 01:55:57,440
Brilliant.

1607
01:55:57,440 --> 01:56:02,600
Hassan, same question.

1608
01:56:02,600 --> 01:56:04,680
Where to find you online?

1609
01:56:04,680 --> 01:56:06,200
So they can find me online.

1610
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:12,720
The easiest is through the company I work with, which is again, OKA-online.com.

1611
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:18,680
They can also find me on LinkedIn and it's Hassan Kamel.

1612
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:21,720
And those are the only two that I really exist on.

1613
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:27,820
Like Ryan, I'm trying to narrow down the social media to the bare minimum bone.

1614
01:56:27,820 --> 01:56:29,560
So that would be the easiest one.

1615
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:32,200
Of course, they can always email me.

1616
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:37,200
And my email is hkamel.com.

1617
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:40,200
Brilliant.

1618
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:44,200
Well, I want to thank you both so much.

1619
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:49,200
We've been all over the place and this is what I love about these longer form conversations.

1620
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:53,000
But I mean, there's so much value from each of your backgrounds and the journeys that

1621
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:54,000
you've been through.

1622
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:56,320
And then the book is incredible as well.

1623
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:58,720
It's really kind of unpacking the why.

1624
01:56:58,720 --> 01:56:59,880
And I think this is the thing.

1625
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:04,560
Once we understand what's working against us, the same with the Social Dilemma documentary.

1626
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:07,540
What a beautiful insight into why we can't put our damn phones down.

1627
01:57:07,540 --> 01:57:11,880
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1628
01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:14,400
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1629
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:15,400
Thank you, James.

1630
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:16,400
It's been a pleasure.

1631
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:17,400
It has been a blast, James.

1632
01:57:17,400 --> 01:57:30,200
Thanks for having us on and thank you for doing what you do.