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Welcome to episode 404 of Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing.
And this week, it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,
the two French brothers behind the 9-11 documentary,
November 13th and their most recent one, Notre Dame, Jules and Gédion Nordei.
Now, I have literally been waiting four years to talk to these two incredible men
after being moved so powerfully by their documentaries
and understanding their passion for the first responder community, specifically the fire service.
So I was humbled.
I was honored to sit down with them and had so many questions that this conversation went on for two and a half hours.
As you will hear, Gédion had to actually leave and go and get his children from school because I kept him so long.
But they witnessed firsthand the tragedy in New York City.
And then they documented the tragedy in Paris and then obviously the Notre Dame fire as well,
amongst other documentaries that they've done on top of that.
So I can't recommend strongly enough to listen to this from beginning to end.
In the midst of what we have been through this last year and some of the things that we've already been exposed to in 2021,
this restores the faith in humanity.
You hear the beautiful stories that came out of some of these horrendous terrorist attacks.
Now, before we get to that conversation, as I say every single time,
please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback.
I truly do love reading your feedback and leave a rating.
Every five star rating makes this podcast more visible for others to find it.
And this is a free library for you, Planet Earth.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to everyone else who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Jules and Gédion Naudet.
Enjoy.
So Jules and Gédion, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having us. Most welcome. Thank you.
Now, despite the accidents, where are we actually finding you on Planet Earth today?
I'm in Connecticut.
I'm in New York City, but and for the record, I wish I could be talking like Sylvester Stallone.
I took classes, but growing up in Paris, France, I guess, yeah, it was too late.
I was asked the other day if I was popular with the girls when I was younger because of the English accent.
I told her no, because everyone was English, so no one cared.
But now I don't know if you have the same thing, but when you move to a different country,
people find your accent intriguing.
The French did go a long way. That's true.
Beautiful. All right. Well, I love to start at the very beginning.
So where were you born? And then tell me about your family dynamic, what your parents did,
and if you had any other siblings.
Roger Leon, you want to start?
OK, OK, OK. I don't get much credit being the first one, of course, because the second one,
Jules got all the brain and the rest. But yeah, we were born in both in Paris.
Our parents are Parisian and crazy enough, they decided when we were respectively 18 and 16 years old,
that they wanted to change their life and move to New York City.
And at that time, it was New York was like was like in the movies.
It was Starkey and Hutch and everything that you could possibly imagine when you're growing up,
watching a series on TV. And we arrive in New York and right away we knew we wanted to make
to continue to make documentaries and films. That was something that we had started years before.
Maybe you can talk about that, Jules.
So I think the to go back before. So we were our family environment, our father,
was the editor in chief of a magazine called Photo, which was all about photojournalism
and photography in general. So we were raised very early on with these great masters of photojournalism
between Cartier-Bresson and all of the others who were, you know, coming for lunch with our parents
and our father in particular. And so as little kids, we would listen to these incredible stories
of how to capture a moment with them. It was with one click, with one image.
But we were struck by that. And our parents were absolute cinephiles and we were watching movies
every single night. On Sunday night, where in France, you normally around midnight, you have
classics that that air, whether it is a Cure-Sawa or a Renoir or whatever it was, or Orson Welles.
And actually, they would force us to watch it. They thought it was important for our general culture.
And the next day, they would write us a note that we'll give to our teachers saying, oh,
I'm terribly sorry. But yesterday, you know, the rules of the game by Renoir was on TV. And we
thought it was very important. So of course, all the teachers were convinced we were writing our
notes ourselves. And we call our parents and our parents would invite them to lunch because we're
honestly very bad in school. And so they needed to do some kind of work around that. And so they
would invite our teachers to school and said, you know, but this is the importance of cinema and
what it teaches you, etc. So very early on, we were raised with, you know, moving images and
photography as examples on how to tell a story for us. It morphed a little bit into documentaries
instead of photography. And I think we got our father lent us our first camera when Gedeon was
12. I was nine. We're still in the same dynamic. He was kind of the director. I was the actor at
that time. And that's where we started and continuing into continuing being interested
in documentary filmmaking in particular. And I think the first program we made was at Gedeon's
high school, where we did a kind of a profile of the students and the teachers, which ended up being
banned by the school. But we set up secret screenings inside the school during the high
school time, where of course you would see all the teachers screaming in vain while the students are
playing Dungeon and Dragon in the back of the class or whatever it was. But so that's where we
got our first taste for, you know, kind of the fly on the wall kind of documentary style that
we really like, but also to show the humanity of things in our own immature way at that time.
But when we arrived to the United States and in New York, which was always the biggest dream of
our parents, who always told us, you know, one day kids, we will go there. And so being raised
with American cinema and series and all that, you know, when we arrived, Gedeon was 19, I was 16.
It was almost like it felt like coming home. You know, everything was bigger. Everything was wilder,
was more extreme. And we felt right at home because the electricity that we would have when
we would walk this, you know, just on you walk one block in New York and you've met, you've
crossed paths with people from 20 different countries with different crazy adventures, probably
that happened to them. And so that energy, you know, sustained us and fed us very early on. And
then we went to NYU and, and, and, and try to, to learn at least professionally of how to do
documentaries and, and in film in general. But it was really that awakening moment of coming to New
York and feeling of that, that electricity that you can feel and that possibility that there is no,
everything is possible that, you know, cliche that, you know, the American dream is really was a
reality for us, of course. Yeah. And so it's interesting how you, as you mentioned, your
observation was immediately how diverse New York was. And I had the same thing, even, even in England,
I grew up in the farm, a very rural part of England. So when I would go to Heathrow airport
on ski trips or whatever, I'd always have the same thing. Like what a beautiful tapestry
that airport was of the world. And then London was the same thing. So it's, it's then crazy. And
obviously, as we're recording this, there's some lunacy going on in this country at the moment
that sometimes people in this country don't see just how diverse and beautiful their own country
actually is. No, and we're lucky. I think it's particular for us from a European descent like
this, where, you know, you're we're small, and we're big at the same time, you know, you can
take the car or the train and in two hours, you can be in a different country. And then an hour,
two hours later, you in another country after that. So I think it's really I've always found
it a strength to be able to be in the middle of all these different cultures. And I think it's a
plus to realize that we're not alone. And there's, it's an incredible and beautiful and crazy world
that there and we enriched by the people in it. Absolutely. Well, Gérion, getting back to your
childhood in France or in Paris specifically, obviously, we're going to talk about, you know,
the Bataclan and that horrendous day a little bit later. But being younger, I talk about this a lot
when I grew up in England, we had the IRA bombing. So we were exposed to terrorism when I was young.
I remember a lot of the hijackings and plane bombings through your lens. Obviously, you had
no intention of documenting terrorist attacks when you were becoming filmmakers. Were there any kind
of tragedies in France during your childhood, prior to obviously moving to the US?
Indeed, the France and Paris in particular, where we grew up, experienced the terror,
the horror of terrorism in the 80s. It was the first bombs attack. And we remember quite well,
you know, sometimes our parents asking us to just to give us to give them a call, right,
right coming out from school to make sure it was safe to, to come home, walking back home by ourselves.
We remember bombing exploding near a father's office. And that was, yes, that was quite scary.
It was very much an environment then.
Yeah, no, terrorism was something we that we all knew about. It continues. After we arrived in the
US, you had the big wave in the mid and early 90s of bombings in the air, the the the subway
in Paris were almost every three days a bomb with a pie bomb with nails and all that would explode
in a in a busy, busy subway train. So France, as always, just like you, you were born with it,
you would listen to it on the radio and on the news at night with your parents, most probably.
It was it permeated. We terrorism was something we were aware of. And even though we had not seen it
firsthand, it was never very far away. Yeah. And who was behind the attacks that you were seeing in
Paris? Was that again, fundamentalist Islam? Yeah, I think it was the PLO, the Palestinian
Palestinian Liberation Front. And I think you had also wave of course, it can be extremists.
So there was a bit of both. It was but these were at that time, I would say were not more
religious base more politically based. It was more a political struggle. Result is the same.
Terrorism is terrorism and the trauma and the death is the same. I think there it was not
on a religious basis as we've seen later after that. Yeah. All right. Well, then so now you're
in New York. So lead me through your education and then how you found yourself approaching FDNY.
Should you pick up this one? Yeah, well, it's always been a shameful tale basically, because
here we are arriving in New York in the luggage of our parents. And I'm 19, Jules is 16. And
we are incredibly lucky that one of us is accepted to teach NYU film school, the famous one.
Still have no idea how they got us in. But so only one of us is there and
because our parents simply cannot afford to pay to tuition. And so Jules and I have this crazy idea
to pretend that as I'm officially registered to pretend that Jules also is officially registered.
And I'm going to take twice as many credits. And I'm going to give half of the classes to Jules.
I'm going to take the directing classes and he's going to take the producing classes.
And to this day, it's insane to think that they never realized what happened.
And for four years, Jules got to NYU completely illegally.
But so I'm the only one who officially graduated. We will be forever grateful to NYU and whenever
we can, we thank them because it was an amazing school. It's one of those schools where
you don't have to do so much theory. You can just take the camera and go out and experiment.
And that's the only way you're really going to learn. And that's what NYU would let us do.
But yes, that was the only way to learn. I mean, yeah, we had to beg and cheat.
And this led us to, as we were finishing NYU, we reconnected with a friend from Paris who had been
at Gédéon's high school and who had moved to New York and who had married an amazing guy
who was an actor but was also a firefighter, James Hanlon. And after numerous French dinners,
which would go very, very late into the night, James would tell us these incredible tales of
life in a New York City firefighter and especially life in a firehouse, that kind of amazing,
mysterious and fascinating brotherhood. And so we came up with the idea altogether to what if we do
a documentary on a firehouse and especially on a young firefighter and what better way to do it
than to use a young probie, a rookie firefighter in his probation period, which lasts nine months.
And we thought it was great. We kind of knew it was a very long shot because I think the last time
that cameras had been allowed by the FDNY in a firehouse was actually from the BBC. In 1975,
a documentary called The Bronx is Burning came out. Fascinating. You should appreciate that.
But it's really at the heyday where, you know, when you would look at a baseball game at
a Yankee Stadium, they would pan in the back and you had plume of smoke and like five different
parts of the Bronx were burning. And so since 1975, no one had been allowed to film in a
firehouse. And so coming to the fire department with James, who was a firefighter, with I think
our thesis film at NYU, which was about amateur boxer in Spanish Harlem, which is a very human
and very, you know, good way to look at things. I think they appreciated that and they decided
to give us a chance. We knew the parameter was we wanted to follow every single time that the
probie would be, whether he was doing a 24 hour shift or a 12 hour shift, would be there. And so
the idea was, well, we're going to follow for nine months and we'll see what happens.
The problem is that no one was interested in that. We had sent letters to every broadcasters in the
U.S. in France and everyone kept telling us, oh, it's very nice, but honestly, firefighters don't
really interest anyone. And so as usual, you know, the beg, steal and borrow, we didn't steal, but we
borrowed from friends and best friends and we took day jobs to be able to pay for the tapes.
I was a Xerox copy person, which of course now sounds antiquated, but you know, I was
in a production company just making Xeroxes and Gedeon, what were you doing for that?
Oh, I was a buzz boy and a very bad one at that. So the idea was to find ways. And
once we had the, at least the budget, which was not much to buy the cameras and buy the tapes at
that time, we worked with the fire department to try to kind of do a casting in a way, select
the probie. So for this, we went to the the the fire Academy Academy, the rock and talk to the new
class and introduce ourselves and said, this is who we are. This is what we've done. And this is
what we'd like the project we would like to do. And so out of, I don't know, a class of 200, there
was about 50 that were interested in at least talking to us. We, you see in the documentary,
the kind of the interviews we do at first, and as soon as we met Tony Benetatos, it literally,
as we say, he was the one, you know, he had that naivety and that enthusiasm of use. And especially,
he had no link to the fire department, contrary to a lot of others who were sons, grandsons,
cousins, or nephews of firefighter themselves. Here was a blank slate. And what better way for
the audience to identify with them because as Tony would come to the to the firehouse and
discover this world, the through his eyes, the audience will have the same way discovering
everything being a virgin to that world. And so we got the okay, he agreed to participate. He just
he finished the the training of the rock and was assigned on I think July 2 or something like that,
June 3, I think to come to the to the firehouse. Beautiful. And just prior to that, this occurred
to me, had you had any exposure with the sapeur pompier in Paris itself? No, no, no, never. Well,
just I guess like every young boy, you know, fascination with the big rick trucks and the
French one in particular, who looks like they're coming up from a Star Wars movie when they put
their C3PO helmet down. And you know, it was always kind of the normal fascination, but I
actually, you know, never been to a fire never met any of them socially or any other way. So that was
a dream come true. All this was kind of a lifelong little boy's dream coming true.
Beautiful. Well, I know he refers to himself, I think you talk about him as black clouds and
white clouds. And he was definitely a white cloud. It's funny because outside FDNY, a lot of people
revere the city. And I think it's based more on the war years that you know, every station is just
burning, you know, every shift. And the reality is most of the busy departments, even more inner city,
we don't get as much fire in, you know, 2021 as those guys did in the 70s and 80s. So kind of
walk me through your expectation of what these shifts are going to look like and what his first
few weeks actually look like. So we start, of course, you know, our imagination will be going
to a fire every day is going to be amazing babies will be saved and all that. So, but the reality is
actually what was complicated is, as you can imagine, two little frogs, as they would call
us coming with cameras in a place where normally what stays in the firehouse, you know, what happens
in the firehouse stays in the firehouse. And here you have two strange French creatures with
incredible accents who are filming them every move. So their first go to even though, you know,
the captain of the of the engine had agreed and the captain of the engine in a house where you have
the engine and the truck, the captain of the engine is the captain of the house. And so they
had agreed. But we as soon as we came in, every time we would film them, they would come up with
the most incredible curse words I had ever seen and to this day ever heard. And so, of course,
we couldn't use anything at all. And so whenever we would be there, they would do that. So we
decided, OK, it's going to be a little bit more complicated than we thought. Also, by the fact
that whenever Tony would work, there was no job whatsoever. It was just, you know, as you said,
it was a fantastic cooking show, which is in itself is something else, which is actually,
I think, is the way we kind of got to their to to to for them to trust us. James had told us very
early on, don't worry, they're going to, you know, make fun of you mercifully until, you know,
they accept you and you will see the change almost overnight. There is a moment where,
you know, they start from making fun of you to, you know, actually from not talking to you to
making fun of you and making fun of you. That's a good that's a good that's a good sign. And the
more they really write, the more you're accepted. And so we kind of knew of that. But I remembered
when they would not really talk to us or that to look at us was a kind of a strange look. I
remembered that our grandmother told us, you know, if you want to for certain people, if you want to
get to them, go through their stomach. So I started cooking quite a lot. And we did lasagna, we did
the french fries that didn't come out from a bag and frozen. And, you know, all of these things.
And I think that really was one of the big parts of this. And there may be not that bad, you know,
they cook okay. So so that was the start of at least of it. Yeah. Well, it's funny, because
there's that one scene where you make lamb. And I'm sure to again, European eyes, you're like,
this is going to be enough. American portions are very different. So so what was that day like for
you? It's strange enough for me, and you know, you'll tell it was the best day of that entire
project. You know, we're cooking this amazing meal, which I was very proud. And it was, you know,
it was a leg of lamb, flageolet beans and, and mashed potatoes. You cannot go more French than
this with the little sauce that goes with it and all that. But except that like a moron, you know,
yes, I forgot to realize that I instead of doing one leg of lamb, you know, I should have had at
least 12 of them. You know, so we cook and we set the meal and everyone is in a fantastic mood.
And everyone is really making fun of us. And everyone is laughing and you can feel that
fantastic energy. And I remember the moment, you know, being in the kind of in the doorway,
looking at everyone and everyone is having a great time and you know, and James, you know,
telling stories and all that. And you see, and I remember reflecting, this is the moment, finally,
we're accepted. This is amazing. And as you know, craziness and reality being stranger than fiction,
it is the night of September 10. And that we would not know that the next day, everything would
change. But that night was a fantastic night. Even though then later on during the night, we had like
five false alarms, and we barely slept. And since we were still, you know, completely
terrorized, missing a fire, we would sleep completely dressed shoes on, the cameras and
on the shoulder like this on the on the couch, ready to pounce at any movement and terrorized
that we would miss it or we'd be in the bathroom when the bell runs out. You know, the normal
firefighters probably kind of worries. But and then the next day was completely different.
Absolutely. Well, and that's what's so heartbreaking, I think with 9-11, with November 13,
even with the Notre Dame documentary is, especially with those two where lives were lost,
is you take a moment to paint the picture of what the morning was like, you know, and so obviously,
we'll talk about in a second, the calls that they ran right before it happened. And then in
November 13, the people setting up for the day in the cafes and so, so let's talk about that. So
what was the morning like prior to, you know, when the world changed as it were?
It's a regular morning. I mean, right away, we wake up and we know that around seven, eight
o'clock in the morning, there's going to be a shift. And so Tony Beletatos will just go home. And
but right away, we call our parents like we often do, and they live in Paris. And we tell them,
look, it was another another night where it was no fire. But but but we really believe we we
connecting with the guys, they finally accepting us and then and they're very happy for us. And we
hang up with our parents and we say, I'll speak to you later. Have a great day. And and and right
when we hang up, I think the the the alarm ring and it's an order of gas on VZ and church,
something like that juice if I'm not mistaken, Lispinard, Lispinard. And and so Jules who who
has a camera that follows the chief, the chief car and that time, it's chief Pfeiffer, battalion
chief Joseph Pfeiffer, who's on duty. So Jules jump on the with the chief in his car. And the
the truck follows. And I'm with the second camera and I'm my job is to follow the rookie Tony
at all times, except that Tony had just just barely been relieved. And so it is is relieved.
The other rookie who gets on the engine and follows the chief and Jules and the truck. I stay in
the firehouse with Tony and basically minutes pass and and and and I guess you should tell the story
because this is all this is unbeknownst to me. When I take the the call and I go in the chief's car,
you have to understand we had set up our responsibility. Jedeon, which is the oldest
and the accomplished cameraman, was the one filming Tony at all times. And so me being kind
of the newbie and not and filming for the first time we had thought but you know, it will be an
interesting point of view to have the chief also the battalion chief. So we have two different
insights into the job, the man who go inside the fire and the strategy part of the chief itself.
And so, you know, I've been doing that all summer. Most of the chiefs know me pretty well. Chief
Pfeiffer, we've seen each other. He's kind of used to the old French guy in the back of his SUV
with a camera. So it's nothing, you know. And so I when I arrive at Lespenard and and sure,
honestly, it's a pretty normal day. It's gorgeous. I remember it's a blue blue sky. I think I'm
thinking about, you know, going voting later on because it was the mayoral election of New York
at that time, right on that day. And so I arrived and just film and I'm sure she was there. But you
know, at the fire scene, there's a lot of people there's a lot of options. So I don't see him. But
for me, he's, you know, with Tony somewhere. I don't I concentrate on what I'm supposed to do.
And since I'm, you know, I'm new at this, I always kind of do the cliche, I'm going to film kind of
the landmark that is right in front of me so I can kind of get a good point of to find myself. So
it's always the World Trade Center is there. So I always kind of do the pants from the World
Trade Center moving back to the to the guys, you know, I'm thinking in my head how I'm not going
to mess this up. And today, one's going to scream at me if I don't do take them. So you know, it's
still the little brother older brother kind of thing. So you know, just practicing filming,
I see a chief FIFER who sees that there is a slight order of gas. But you know, Con Edison,
which is the gas company is called standard procedures. There's nothing, you know, we don't
smell a lot of gas. So we're not concerned at all. But we stay around as is some what you're
supposed to do until the Con Edison arrives. And as we're milling around, and I'm filming
chief FIFER, I carry a small camera, it's about like this, I carry it normally at my hip. So I
can look around and see what's happening. And I look on the little LCD screen to kind of see what
I'm what is in frame. And as I'm filming the chief, I remember, we hear this kind of loud roar,
they're getting a bit louder, you know, we're used to two planes in New York City, but this one was
different. So I remember looking up and seeing in between two building behind two building,
a plane that goes in the back of it, and it's pretty large, it's pretty fast, it's pretty low,
I can read American online, American airline on the on the back of it. And then, you know,
it kind of disappears behind a building. And I'm looking reflects my camera is already on. So I,
you know, turn to follow its trajectory, it's what what's going to happen. And it is it reappears
behind the building, it crashes into one world trade. It's the moment where, which is normal,
but time completely kind of dilates, it's, you know, seconds seem to take minutes. And it's very
strange, I think it's a you have such a sensory overload, that being able to process that kind of
slows down everything. So between between what I'm seeing, and what I'm thinking, I cannot make sense
of the two together. And I'm brought back kind of to reality by the sound, there was a delay in the
explosion, which I hear, and see the the firefighters all around kind of being removed from that
microsecond of shock. And then everyone jumps into their their trucks, and, and the chief
jumps into his car, I follow him immediately. And then we dash to the to the World Trade Center,
where we're there in about, you know, a minute and a half flat. Since it's early on, it's 846.
There's not much people that time. And but we're cruising. And, and what I don't remember at that
time, even though I'm filming continuously, is the chief actually says, and I will find that later,
when I rewatch the tape, G Pfeiffer saying, you know, it looked like a direct attack, the one was
a the World Trade Center was was hit, and then gives where they should meet one the first one
inside one World Trade Center and the other one as a secondary staging post a little bit further.
But, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to really think concretely, I'm just concentrating on what
I'm seeing trying to do to film the chief and his driver had fehi and all that. But
it's kind of chaos in my mind at that point. So you want to jump back and forth, we can do back
and forth between GD was perspective and mine, maybe please, please. Okay, well, so I'm in the
firehouse is completely empty firehouse with just Tony, the the the probie firefighter.
And he's about to leave to go home. When suddenly there's a large, frantic knock at the firehouse
front door, and he opened the door and there is this guy who says, you guys have to come there is
there is there is an explosion, there's a plane that hit the the World Trade Center,
come right away. And it makes no sense. Tony looks at me, I look at Tony with the firehouse
is completely empty. I just pick up the camera and I go around the corner on Church Street.
And I see a gigantic hole in one World Trade Center with smoke coming out of it. And it's this
moment where suddenly, I feel terribly guilty for the entire summer. I wished that something would
go on that we would see a fire. And suddenly here it is a plane I just crashed into the World
Trade Center. This is just too big. This is too. And and you know, it's a stupid reaction, you
know, why should I feel guilty? I didn't make it happen. But I did. And so so I'm thinking, damn,
where is juice and it must be with with everyone and I must be heading toward the World Trade
Center. So I go back, I tell Tony that there is indeed a gigantic hole in the World Trade Center.
And I pick up all the equipment and I start walking down to Church Street, to the World Trade Center.
And same with Jules, you know, it's very hard to comprehend filming the reaction of the people.
It's like the entire planet was there looking at looking up. And and quickly just a riot. Remember
I remember arriving down the World Trade Center, this gigantic boom explosion. And it was the second
plane just hitting the the South Tower. And and yeah, that's that's those twilight zone moment
where you it's just too much. You this is no accident anymore. But you have no idea what to do.
The only thing I knew was Jules was at the World Trade Center. Those two towers were where where
were burning and now cops were telling everybody to to evacuate. So I just walked back to the to the
firehouse. I think the the crazy part that where it becomes, you know, it kind of goes on the of
the rail, which is already when we see the first plane. I remember for me was a series of just
getting things from from from from bad to worse, you know, arriving at the finally at the World
Trade Center by parking right under the awning of one World Trade, the North Tower, and seeing the
chief gets out to start to put his bunker gear. And of course, I asked him, you know, can I come
in with you? And he tells me, yes, you know, please don't, don't leave my site. And I think in him,
we talked after after about it, he didn't want me to start being around. He didn't want me if he
didn't want me if he thought that if he told me not to go in, I would be around it. And he knew it
was dangerous. And so we went in. And I think what as soon as we go in, I see these two people who
are burning alive. And it made me almost remember these these pictures that we had seen when we were
young people, the the Vietnam the photo of war photographers were taken in the Vietnam
war with, you know, a little girl burning and all that all these images came back flooding into me
and because here, you know, having my brother and I have lived very sheltered life up to that point,
you know, I think the death the closest we had seen was a relative in a in a suit, you know,
in a coffin that you pay your respects to but here the immediacy and the horror of it and and
and and the sight the sound is the smell everything was so horrible that I think that gauge at least
in my part, and I think she only did the same. I censored myself from that moment on seeing seeing
which was a defense mechanism. I don't think there's anything noble about what I wanted to
do and all that. I think I was at first trying to protect myself from the horror of the image that
is still steer seared into my brain until still today, that no one should see this,
there is a certain respect of in life, but in death also. And so from that moment on,
I would not have also separately had made that same decision filming the dead or the or the
wooden in a way that was gratuitous, we didn't want that. And so as I come in the the the World
Trade Center, first I see that all the windows outside have been blown out. It looks very strange
that you have that smell of kerosene downstairs, you don't know what happened. We would learn later
on that it was the jet fuel that went down and a broken elevator elevator shaft that created that
fireball in the lobby. And that burned these people in these right there that I was seeing.
And so as I'm going to the left, following the chief still, we hear one of our guys from the I
think the truck, Jamal, who actually use the extinguisher and puts down the person and that
person is then taken outside, I think that person lived actually. And, and then I follow the chief
and we go to the the fire control area, which is right to the left when you come in. And and then,
you know, firefighters start streaming in it's a non stop sirens guys coming in checking in
going up. And here I don't feel worried in a way I feel, you know, I'm surrounded by these amazing,
you know, kind of superhero who don't wear maybe uniforms or or or capes. But you know,
they're bunker gear. It's for me, it's a giant s in a way, it's kind of a Superman. But and and
also, I feel that, you know, I've seen that the fire is very high above me. So I don't feel
concerned. I there's not a million year that in my I have any thought that these towers can ever
come down. I think that's not something you even realize can happen. And as I'm filming around
filming the everyone we hear the loud explosion. And I remember looking up and filming and we see
flaming debris falling on the other side of the courtyard. And someone comes in and said another
plane has just hit the other tower. And that's where for me, I realized that it's not an accident.
Up to that point, I was sure it was an accident, or at least I didn't question the what was
happening. And here it seems to be you know, we're under attack. And that seems to be what what is
happening. Everything changes again, you know, the the stress level comes in and because it's it's
now you're you're you're you're hunted in a way you feel like a target and and and so the the stress
for me, I keep it inside, but I think it manifests as being frantically filming. And as a way, you
know, our brain protects us in the most strangest way. So for me, it was making sure I keep filming
because it gave me something to do, made sure I had to clean the lens. So I would, you know,
the image will be good. And once again, you know, my brother will will will not be disappointed with
me and will be proud of the work I do. And so it was always trying to it was almost like,
I don't know, something I would I would repeat almost like a Zen kind of thing, you know,
I would count when I would film people to make sure I would keep them in frame for about five to
10 seconds. So I would count that loud or in my head. And so it was a way to count my nerves and
give me something to do. And seeing everything happening through the little LCD screen in a way
was a way to looking at it through a window, you know, and then unfortunately started the
the loud bangs and explosion that would hear that we would very soon realize it was actually people
who were jumping from the the the the higher floors. And that was one of the hardest part,
you know, because it's it's absolutely surreal, you don't see it. But you hear it and the sound
represents, you know, the death of a person. And intellectually to realize that every time you hear
that, and I would hear it, you know, over 20 times, if not more, you know, that's what that
sounds represents. And with that sounds is a life and what all what the life represents. And it's,
it's, it's kind of traumatic to try to understand that. But then you did if you want to pick up on
your your end. So, meanwhile, I walk my way back to the firehouse. And it's still empty. It's only
the probie Tony there, manning the firehouse by himself. And there is this monitor. And,
and he's watching TV and he's completely helpless like like, like I am. There is nothing he can do
except except soon. One, then two, then three firefighters arrive directly from their home,
the lucky one who managed to cross the bridge or the tunnel fast enough
to to to arrive at the firehouse. And, and I'm thinking there is no way I'm going to walk back
by myself to the to the World Trade Center. I'm not a firefighter and I'm going to be pushed away
again by by by cops and FBI agents who are now you know, all around the and and so I waited until
Steve Rogers arrived, the veteran firefighter in the house, who right away said, I'm going to pick
up my where I'm going to go there on my pickup truck. And he assembled three of his guy. And,
and I said, Can I come? I need to find out what's going on. And Jules is over there. And I cannot
stay here by myself doing nothing. And he said yes. And I was so grateful that he said yes.
And so I jumped with him and then and three other guys. And he drive his pickup truck like a madman
down Church Street. We arrived we park kind of a block or two from the World Trade Center.
The vision of downtown collapse already the South Towers. Yes, so sorry, so sorry. While we are the
firehouse. The the South Tower, the second one to be hit collapse. It happened at the same time that
I'm I lose Tony Benenatos, the the probie, who basically rush outside with an old retired
retired fire chief. Chief Burns, an incredible character who also managed to come home, even
though he was a retired chief. He just he just saw Tony in the firehouse. He just pick up some gear.
And he said, Tony, let's go, let's go help people. And that was insane to see except that I lost them
in the crowd. So I came back anyway. So here I am in the pickup truck with with Steve,
the veteran of the house, as three other guys, and, and driving like like a madman. And the street is
completely white. People are why everybody is covered by this dust. We start to walk toward
the North Tower, the only one left standing. And when we arrive on busy streets, there's a street
adjacent to the to the tower. I take a bit more time, I don't walk as fast as they do.
I don't know, there's something just at that point, so terrifying that I don't know why,
but my legs are not really walking me anymore. And I'm kind of do stand up just stupidly filming.
And that's when this gigantic war happened. And it was like in those
catastrophe movie, you know, you just look up and you see in slow motion,
the top of this skyscraper falling on you. And, and the next thing I know, I'm running
a few, a few feet away to empty fire engine. And I go up, I open the door, I crawl myself,
I hear someone behind me getting in just a few seconds after me. And that's it. I'm
just waiting to die because the debris I can hear and feel I falling all around the fire engine.
Some are falling on it, I can I can hear the windows exploding. And I'm just waiting for the
moment of the big one crashing us. And remembering, you know, as seconds as Drew said, second would
would feel like minutes, feeling quite angry, pissed off that I was not dead already, you know, the
waiting for for your death was so annoying. So so, so horrible. So you just wanted it to be over. And
anyways, your turn, I guess. Yeah. Well, but to go back, is that James, is that what you're
interested in? I don't know if you want us to skip? No, no, no. As long as you have time, I
I've I've set aside as much time as it takes to tell your story today. So please take your time.
This is I'm honored that I'm sitting here listening to this. So thank you.
No problem. So to go back a little bit. So when after the the the the the second plane has hit,
you know, it's a chaotic time in the in the lobby, there's more and more people coming more and more
people going up, including Chief Pfeiffer's brother, Kevin, from Engine 33, a lieutenant who's
who, who, who goes to see his brother and his brother gives up, gives him the assignment to go
up. And unfortunately, it will be the last time they will see each other because Chief Pfeiffer's
brother would die in the in the North Tower. And as people are coming in, I see the the the the the
the the the preacher of the of the firehouse, the the fire chaplain, fire chaplain, sorry, the chaplain,
the chaplain, the father judge, which I had seen before at other events and things like that. But
here normally, you know, he's always kind of a blisterous guy, always a smile on his face,
always a quick word, a quick quick smile. And here it's absolutely the opposite. He has an
incredibly serious demeanor. He looks like he's mumbling. Some people would say he was praying,
and and you know, not making eye contact with people. And it was very striking. I remember
filming him because he was, you know, he's really a beloved figure in the in the in the fire
department and was always there for people. And I see a lot of the people and what strikes me is
really the look on their faces. Then it's not fear because there's a lot of people who are
not afraid. But the level of concern, the level of realization of the how big is the job, how
dangerous it's going to be, the realization of the loss of life that has already taken place
that will continue to take place, and the most probable injuries to firefighters as they're going
up 80 floors of 80 floors, using the stairs with 50 pounds on the minimum on their on their shoulders.
You can feel that that that that determination and I'm always amazed, you know, we're giant groupies
of firefighters, all first responders for firefighters in particular. And to see that
determination that that courage that, you know, what for us makes them kind of the best of all
of us is this determination to regardless of danger to themselves, they will be there and they will
jump into a building on fire willingly, eagerly to be able to to to to save people's life.
And here I could see it firsthand, even though they knew which was going to be bad, they knew that
some of them or themselves had will would lose their lives. There was no hesitation on the
country. The frustration was that they couldn't get up there fast enough. And as things are trying
to quiet down in a way, even though we're getting, you know, you at that point, you have rumors that,
you know, everything has been hit that the Sears Tower, that Chicago, that Los Angeles, that pretty
much everything, you know, World War Three has just started because you don't know anything.
In the middle of the eye of the storm, you're cut off from everything. I think people in
watching it on television anywhere else in the world knew much more than we did. And so when
things have quiet down in the lobby, most people are firefighters have gone up. The chief are
mingling around trying to find their strategy. And and I remember I'm filming Chief Pfeiffer,
he's the first chief on site. And so pretty consequent. And as I'm filming him, we hear a
very loud roar once again coming from above us. And I remember we're all all of us are looking up
and suddenly everyone scatters. And so I follow them and I see that they run into a little entrance
that would lead to another I think five World Trade. And it's because that sound is almost like
the sound of death. You know, it's kind of that freight train of death coming towards you, you
know, it's coming, you have no idea what's happening, but you know, this is bad. And so as I
follow everyone, we start going up a an escalator. I remember just stopping and saying, Okay, what am
I running? You know, I don't know what this is, but this is death, and I'm going to die. And
unfortunately, it's the sad reality of it. And I remember being surprised as the kind of the Zen
account that I had in my mind. Again, time is completely distended. I have the impression this
lasts for half an hour, even though it's only a few a few seconds. But I remember that long
conversation in my head of, okay, I'm about to die. And I'm kind of pissed off at that and sad
because you know, I have so many people I love that I'll be missing and all that. But in my mind,
it's almost like that's, you know, that I know a door opens and kind of, okay, I'm going to
walk through that and how we'll see what happens after I remember having a prayer saying, you know,
now is the time I'm not a believer. So I think, you know, I could use a sign. aging my bets, you
guess, I couldn't hurt. And, you know, no, no atheist in a foxhole, as they say, yes, it happens.
But you and as that roar is coming, and the darkness engulfs us and, and that dust or fog,
I don't know what it is, is covering us. It's really kind of, you know, we're suddenly crossing
into the the underworld, the abyss, the dentist inferno, it's what it looks like. And then that
incredible quietness, almost like, you know, during a first heavy snow in the city where all
the sounds of this of the streets disappears, it's exactly that everything is muffled everything.
And then, you know, like, like, sound suddenly comes in, and you hear, you know, little sound,
you see someone saying, is everybody okay? And of course, I'm the first one to pipe up
because I'm afraid they're going to leave me behind. Okay, you know, kind of, you know,
desperately crying in a way. And, you know, I turn on the big floodlight I have on my camera,
which ends up being good, because the chiefs normally don't have all a lot of equipment on
them as they're downstairs. And so they someone sees the light and say, you with the light,
come downstairs, come help us. And what I would discover is that they had just found the body of
a father judge and they were trying to see if he had a pulse. And unfortunately, he had died,
probably being hit by a piece of debris that that broke his neck. And so I think he died
very quickly there. But unfortunately, there was nothing we could do. And so very quickly,
they decide we have no idea what's happening. We have no idea. So it's the the the South
Terrace collapse, as far as we're concerned, it's probably a partial collapse in the North Tower.
And that's why Chief Pfeiffer immediately doesn't hesitate doesn't in about five seconds after that,
that huge explosion or roar or whatever it was, says, okay, Battalion one to to all units in in
in tower one, evacuate the building and make sure it's repeated, make sure it's understood.
And once he's repeated it about two or three times and make sure it's been repeated, then,
then he says, Okay, we need to get out of here. It's dangerous. The some of the chiefs start to
carry the the body of a father judge. And we go up that escalator that would lead to the right to the
West Street right there. And but it's we still see debris is falling, people are still jumping,
and it's still very dangerous. So Chief Pfeiffer says, Okay, we're going to go to use the footbridge
that links the World Trade Center to the financial center, and we'll be safer because we'll be
protected to from whatever falls. And the other chief says, Okay, we'll stay here, we'll wait for
you to make sure it's safe. So here comes that kind of very frustrating moment where we do go
back and forth where now I watch it, I want to scream at the television knowing that there is
a hidden clock, you know, that is that is running there. And as I go there with the chief with his
show, Ferret, Fahy, and someone else, you know, we arrive on the other side, it seems to be okay.
And we try to radio the guys back and say, Okay, it's safe. Come there. We know, no, no news, no
nothing. We go back over there once again, again, and frustrating. But you know, we don't know
anything at that point. They're not here. We go back again, go down. And here we come out on the
other side of the World Trade Center to a scene which is completely as they all said, is completely
different. It's like kind of a nuclear winter, you have ash on the on the floor, you have pieces of
debris papers everywhere. And even though I film what looks like the pieces and the and debris of
the of the South tower, in my head, I refuse to recognize that we've had no information that said
the towers come down, or they were on the radios are made a made a made a that's it. And when I
look at it, I'm again, I'm lying to myself saying, Oh, no, the Wall Trade, the second towers is
probably here is behind the smoke or from where I am, I cannot see it. That's fine. And then the
chief goes back to the secondary position he had given at the beginning and to regroup with the
with the chief we're in the shadow of the one World Trade. I'm still cleaning my camera, I'm still
doing things and kind of disoriented, not knowing what's happening and but still following the chief
and as the chief is called by by by other firefighters there, we're about to go back into
World Trade Center is as you know, there's more people are up there with more people we need to
save. And as we do, I think about two or three paces, we hear that roar again, except this time
I can look up and I see that kind of mushroom of the tower falling on us. Once again, I think first
reflex running like crazy. I think if I were broken Olympic record, how fast I was running.
But you realize that I was trying to run a 120 story building in the middle of the street was
fairly stupid. And as I'm running, I see two trucks there. And I remember a conversation we had over
the summer was the firefighter that said, you know, sometime when you have collapses, pockets
will be created and you have to look for certain things, you know, that could maybe sustain a
pocket when you have a collapse. So it's crazy the kind of things you remember in the heat of
moment. And so I see these two trucks and so well, that's a good idea. So I put myself on the floor,
my camera is on the side, it's still running, our lights is still on because I forgot about it.
And that's where you see these images of that giant cloud that comes and then it's sucked back
in and the papers. And in the middle of all that, I hear someone who jumps on top of me.
And as debris is falling all around and I hear the debris hit, I feel it a little bit,
the person on top of me being hit also. And once again, here I'm absolutely not Zen. I love to
admit I'm exactly like my brother. I'm pissed off. Like, okay, what the hell happened? I survived.
I'm supposed to have survived. I cannot have another one now. First one, I'm okay. You know,
I could deal with it. This is unfair. I'm out of the building. How is this happening?
Well, you asked for a sign, so. Yeah, that was charming in my plea to hire people after that.
But here I am. And again, the strange thing is sound completely disappears again after that.
In that moment, which again, my head is probably seven minutes long, even though it's 12 seconds
or something, it's very no sound or nothing. The person on top of me gets up and I'm like,
the person on top of me gets up and I hear a voice and okay, get up. And I recognize it's Chief
Pfeiffer. We get up because the question he had seen me, I'm in a t-shirt and a pair of jeans.
He needs a bunker gear. And he sees it. He says, okay, what is that moron doing in the middle of
the street? And you know, it looks like beach wear. So come on. So he decided to, because he felt that
I was his pro-B in a way. And we have a very strong link, Chief Pfeiffer and I, which we still see to
this day, each other very often. We spoke every week. You know, he's the man who saved my life.
But I remember going, when he gets up, we don't see anything. There was clouds everywhere. We hear
gunshots, which was very frightening because here we hear pops all over the place. And it's like,
oh, okay, that's it. Now they're in a terrorist or whatever it is. Our in the streets with AK-47s.
It's the end of the world where we'll be shot like rabbits. And what we would discover after,
it was actually a munition inside of a police truck that had caught fire. And so the munition
was popping all over the place. And so, but when you don't know that and you know, it's kind of,
and so after that, I found a little deli right off where I go with Chief Pfeiffer and I'm no
longer in any shape to film anything. I give a call, I think, to my fiance and tell her that
we're okay, that I don't know where Gideon is, but I'm sure he'll be fine. And you know, I'm a little
shook up, we're okay. And after that, I think I filmed sporadically, but I'm in no way or shape
able to do that. All I do is look for Gideon, which, funnily enough, or strangely enough,
was actually probably 50 feet away from me when the second tower collapsed, except we went in
different directions and fortunately both survived. Yeah. So I've just jumped into this fire engine
when hearing the tower collapsing right in on top of me. And I heard and I saw someone else,
a guy jumping into the engine truck right behind me. And I guess we just waited for a moment to
come and for a big piece of the tower to crash us. And this moment, crazy enough, never happened.
Unfortunately, some people who had found refuge behind the truck, the engine, where we were,
in the back, didn't got so lucky because a big piece fell on them, but we got okay.
And I would later discover that the guy who jumped behind me was an FBI special agent
who had previously already saved 20 people from one World Trade Center and five World Trade Center.
I mean, the guy had been already risking his life saving 20 people, burned and injured,
found himself outside when the second tower collapsed. So this guy, me, with a camera,
jumping into an engine truck and just decided to follow me. And so the noise stopped. The tower
has collapsed. We're still alive. And this guy, I don't know who he is, I will let her discover
again that he's a special agent, an FBI, tells me, all right, let's get out. And we get out,
except we don't get out on the sidewalk. It's not the sidewalk anymore. It's trucks. I mean,
it's cars on fire. There is nothing flat on which you walk. It's just pieces of stones and
whatever pieces of the building. And as Jules, I have a light on my camera and we managed to
make a few steps. And suddenly I hear this guy screaming at me saying, come back, come back.
You have the light. I found someone help me. And I turned the lights to the camera. I did not
realize he was not with me anymore. And this guy again saved someone else on those few steps that
we that when we got out of the engine, he had found someone else that he was carrying by himself,
except this guy that he found that was hurt was quite heavy and he definitely needed help. So,
of course, we each had one arm of this hurt guy, you know, with us and with the light of the camera,
we were able to navigate. And it took us a block or two to find help. And I just then just walked
back to the firehouse and each step to the firehouse was this kind of shock and this
question, you know, like, like, like, like, you know, where is Jules? How could he possibly
survive that? Where are the guys of the firehouse? What's going on? And, and unfortunately,
I arrived at the firehouse and the firehouse is almost empty. And there is suddenly no word
from Jules. In fact, guys from guys would arrive almost one by one, like driplet of water here and
there. And I would ask them if they had seen Jules. I mean, he was with them. They must have seen him.
And, and they were not, you know, they said, no, no, sorry. No, no, no, Jules. We don't know where
he is. And anyway, it took it took almost almost over two hours for Jules to, to, to, to, to come
back. And, and that was, yeah, that was the best reunion. Yeah, because what happened is that after
I stopped filming, I would kind of go back and forth to all the streets I could find and ask every
firefighter, you know, have you seen the guys from engine seven and ladder one and, you know, a little
French guy with a camera and what was infuriating is that none of them would meet my eyes. And so
I thought that was a bad sign. None of them would sustain looking into my eyes and said, no, no,
sorry. And, you know, so I had a bad feeling that this was going to be that I unfortunately knew the
answer that they were all dead. And so I dragged my feet. It took me a long time. It took me two
hours to come back to the, to the firehouse on the way. I found guys from the engine. So I was
asking, but did you see Gideon? He said, no, no, he was not with us. I didn't see him. And we finally
arrived back at the firehouse and you have this scene that, that, that is in the film, because
what you have to understand is that one of our best friend that was working not too far. And as
soon as this happened, knew we were there, came to see us, Dory and, and it was we should be only in
the kitchen. And when I arrived, I put my camera down and he picks it up and he films the moment
where we, we, we see each other and we, we fall into each other's arms. And I think, you know,
yes, we're probably 28 and 31 at that time. But when I see these images, we're six and nine
years old, I think. And I think there is that moment. And still remember when I listened to
it in French, I said, you know, I filmed everything, don't worry. And I have all the tapes again.
It's yeah, you go through crazy things when, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're in a traumatic
experience, I think. But what was amazing and was we had survived and that was unbelievable. But the
entire firehouse one by one, all these firefighters, all these friends that we had, we had made,
suddenly all came back one after the other, as improbable as it was. And the last one being the
probie talk about reality being strange in this fiction, it, you know, you, you, it would have
been a movie, it would have thought to be a very bad script. But you know, here was that the last
guy that we're missing was there was Tony and he came back, alas, and everyone was okay. In the
firehouse, which was, you know, complicated, because then that that the search part, you know,
started, and which was the most difficult thing of all, because, you know, people were fine the
first day, but that was it. And you kept hoping it said, has to be hundreds, if not thousands of
people alive, it's it has to. And the more we dug, because we then went back with the guys and
film as they were as they were digging, sometimes digging ourselves, they were, they were no one to
be fine. And then unfortunately, it became not to rescue, but a recovery effort, which, personally,
I think was more complicated, psychologically. Because I think on September 11, and that's just
a personal way I feel that on September 11, I was, you know, I was more reacting, I was not,
I was reacting to what's happening. No time to think no time to really go through psychologically
what's happening. But the recovery effort as you're digging, and as you're, you know, you're looking
for the remains of people, you have too much time on your hand, and you have too much time to process
what you're seeing and what you're what you're feeling when you're smelling. And that's, that's a complicated
thing, at least personally, for me, it was but, but I think what sustained us was the
of individuals who are willing to risk their life for each other and for us. And here, even though,
you know, the place we would know we know the time, you know, was full of dangerous gases and
horrible things that we all breezed in, all they wanted to do is dig further is dig longer,
we would have to pull guys out by the from the piles and the chief saying, No, no, you have to
take a break, you've been digging for 12 hours non stop, go back to the firehouse, take a two hour
rest, then you can come back and people's were almost fighting, they didn't want to leave, it was
really impressive to see how, you know, New Yorkers, you know, you were not the nicest people in the
world, you know, try to take a steal a cab from another New Yorker, you'll I think, you know,
crowbar will come out the brass knuckles. But here, at that moment, that spirit of we're all in this
together to see all New Yorkers caring for each other to see everyone, we were all in the same
boat and to see the entire world was like that. But that, I think that drove what we wanted to do
and what we I think we succeeded in doing in the end, is to show that what we had seen at the
moment where the worst of humanity is revealed, that's terrorism, which is, I think, you know,
the basest human instinct of just instilling terror to other, the best of all of us is there,
that kindness, that courage, that that willingness to say no, and to put your life on the line to
help others is was present everywhere you looked, it was present in the firefighters, selflessly
going up to and risking their lives, it was in the people coming down the stairs and carrying
each other, sometimes 80 flights carrying other people, it was every normal New Yorker coming to
their firehouse coming to everyone, it was the steelworkers who all came and worked on the site,
it was that sense of humanity that wave of saying no to the horror. And that was, I think, what I
keep from all that is, is that giant lesson of humanity that this has taught me.
Jad, you want anything to add to that?
No, no, no. Jules said it perfectly. It's
yes, no, at the end of the day, 20 years later,
it's you cannot help but be eternally eternally grateful to
to the spirit that for Jules and I is embedded in the first responders and and the firefighters,
because whoever you have in the firehouse, it's like it's like a club, it's like a it's like a
class with your schoolmates, it's like it's like an insane mix of people.
And and but there is there is something very special about us because
they despite all their differences and their fights, sometimes they
they have a higher calling to be to to to to to witness this higher calling, to actually see people
ready to be better, to to to go beyond what normal people, you know, ask of themselves on a daily basis.
To see such courage. There is nothing more inspiring.
And it's true. It's this is what this is what basically cure a trauma or cure feeling down
or cure any any moment where we're thinking the world is too insane and too crazy is just to
just for Jules and I or if I measured it's just to go back to this day and the days that followed
to be able to to have witnessed the best in humanity, as Jules said. And it is it is embodied
in those crazy, insane guys and women who live in a firehouse. Yeah, if you if you're an alien and
you arrive on planet Earth and you want to see the best of humanity, go to go to the places of work
of first responders. Maybe not go to to to see where politicians live, go to a firehouse.
You know, you know what we're about to do. We will see you'll see the best of us. And
you'll see the best of us. And so this yeah, you have the trauma on one hand and the the effect
and the damages. But if you have seen what we've seen, then this will heal or will at least help me
deal with the trauma in the best way. And so 20 years later, so grateful to have seen it.
Yeah, well, I mean, the thing coming from a first responders lens of being a fireman and being so
proud because I see that what you're talking about and everyone else you don't see it in yourself,
of course, because that would be narcissism. But but you know, you recognize it in the men
and women that you work alongside. But one of the things that I've always said about this about the
Paris attacks, you know, is, you know, all the obviously similar events, the London attacks,
is the heroism of the civilians, just like you said, just just exact. There's no perfect analogy
than Chief Pfeiffer jumping on your back, because you're there in your beachwear, still, you know,
upfront being prepared to assist to document to all these things. And the stories of heroism of
regular people that worked in the world trade, you know, just now this this invasion of the
government building, I see stories of heroism coming out of that that had, you know, they
weren't expecting a group of people to invade their office. So I think that I don't know if
you have the same, but one of the most powerful things I saw around September last year 2020 is
as a stranger year as it were as it was, was the phrase, I miss 912. I think people identify that
day, just like you said, as the best of the humanity, all colors, creeds, races, religions,
sexual orientations came together to fight evil and to do good. And unfortunately, it's sad,
but it's always how it happens. We saw it after the attacks of November 13. We saw it even when
Notre Dame was burning. Unfortunately, you know, we're complicated human beings that it takes,
unfortunately, a tragedy to remind of us the best of us. So hopefully, it will, it can happen without
something traumatic happening. But at least the good part, it's in us. So really, that's the
first part is there. It's our ability to love and to be better and to sacrifice ourselves is in all
of us. And I think at least that's a that's pretty good silver lining. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned
Paris before we move on to there. I do want to talk about the mental domino effect and the physical
domino effect because as we were talking before we started recording and it's a topic that I've
talked about already on the show, we're losing hundreds more men and women post 9-11. There's,
we lost 343 firefighters specifically. And I know we're getting close to that number now
in post 9-11 illness. That's not including law enforcement, as you mentioned, steel workers,
civilians. So what have you seen being literally, you couldn't have gotten any closer to that event
and being so close to the city of New York and FDNY, NYPD, the last 20 years, the ripple effect
of that horrendous day? Well, I think everything goes back to that day. And as I said it, you know,
that day, you could have told everyone who was there that was between the police officers,
the fire department, everyone who was working on the recovery, you could have told them, you know,
this is what we're breathing in is deadly. It's going to be bad. They would have said, I don't
care. I need to save people. The problem I have is that unfortunately, politicians abandoned
everyone who was there that day, all the first responders, when they refused to take care of
ensure that their health would be taken care of, their medical bills, all that. And to think that
civilians needed to kind of rise up and go and speak at the Congress and at the Senate to plead
and to beg for firefighters and first responders all together to have the medical coverage they
needed, I think is a shame. And it needed to be done. It was done several times. John Stewart,
in particular, was a great proponent of that and helped a lot with that. But, you know, I've always
been, and I'm speaking personally, I've always had a problem with politicians using
tragedies to their own advantage. And the fact of everyone saying, oh, we'll never forget, we'll
celebrate them forever. And then, you know, a month later or a year later when they need to actually
pay a little bit because our friends are dying and because of they were there and saving people.
And now it's like, well, really, are they really that sick? And did they really need to go there?
I think it's an absolute shame. And it's quite disgusting. So every time we can point it out
that let's you know, it's one thing to say let's never forget. It's another to actually doing it
and putting your mouth where you're putting your words where your mouth is, is, you know, take care
of these people. These people are here for us every single day throughout the world. Right now,
thousands of firefighters are saving people around the world and in the US also. So let's remember
that, you know, it doesn't need a tragedy like 9-11. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. It's
a tragedy like 9-11. Unfortunately, that's what highlighted the amazing work that these people do
every single day. But these people are had to be cherished and had to be protected. And everyone who
gave, you know, a little bit of themselves on that day needs to be to be taken care of and all that.
And it's it's I think it's shameful that it takes so long and that we have a fight every five years
to to to to re up the Zagorodibil. And and I think it's you know, it's enough. You know, we
we we we're better than this. If you want to talk about the trauma and you know,
of course, of course. It was interesting to to see the the we understand your your show is about,
of course, all first responders. And so please allow us to apologize as we are firefighters
groupies and our experience with firefighters only. We wish we could talk about police and
and construction workers and and everybody else who came. But our experience is with firefighters.
And so and and with firefighters, which we saw a tremendous change in their culture.
Yeah. Yeah. When we arrived at the firehouse, when we started filming in the summer of 2001,
we we we quickly realized that the culture in the firehouse is a culture of of of being
of being the biggest match show on the planet. I mean, you might discover at the end of the day
that they're big teddy bears. But, you know, the way they talk, it's like, oh, my gosh. And and
so so that's that the way they it was that the way it was, you know, you you don't ask for help,
you you whatever happened stays in the firehouse. If you have a problem, you talk about it among
yourself. You never, never, never ask for help. Except when something as big as 9 11 happen,
you need to ask for help. And those guys didn't. And we saw first. Yeah, they didn't at first. And
we saw psychologically how damaging it was not just in the firehouse, but in every single firehouses.
And and and people were ringing the alarm, saying, you know, if you don't talk about it,
if you don't go through the normal, if you don't recognize it as true trauma, which has some serious
mental and physical effect, you're going to pay a heavy price. And at first, yeah, many did.
But as years passed, we saw the culture in the FDNY change for the better. And we saw those guys
starting to understand and talk to professionals, help each other. I mean, there's still the, you
know, the the basement firehouse therapy that that that is the most amazing one, of course, you know,
you have an issue. You talk to the guys, no one else understand better than that. It's not enough.
And this was huge to see this change over the years. And I think 20 years later,
the culture is now very much understanding of what trauma is and means and the horrible
effect of post-traumatic disorder. So they're not taking that very seriously. So that's a good thing
that came out. Yeah, I think that, as we described before 9-11, you had kind of that superman complex,
you know, nothing can hit can get me. I'm stronger than anything. And I think through that and through
the department realizing that and having, you know, these people are now tested physically,
just like all survivors of 9-11, not only physically for the, you know, cancers and all the
horrible things we diseases, unfortunately, a lot of us are suffering from, but also
mentally to make sure that everyone is okay, that everyone who needs to talk to a professional
therapist, psychiatrist, whatever it is, is there and it took should they always write it took some
time. But I think it's a better department because of it now. Yeah, absolutely. And I had
Nancy Carbone on the show from Friends of Firefighters and what they're doing, I think is
another great asset to FDNY. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, then, I know we're already an hour
and a half in and we're still in New York in 2001. So, and there's no rush on my end at all. I mean,
it's such a powerful story and I want to give you the time to tell it properly.
For you personally, firstly, what was that journey from that event yourself like? And then the last,
the next time I really saw your work come up was obviously after the Paris attacks and that
beautiful documentary that you made, which I think, you know, it is one of my favorite
documentary pieces ever. And it's just, I mean, obviously, it's the people, it's the way you shot
it. It's again, the fact that you didn't sensationalize any of the deaths or anything like that, but
lead me through that period between the two and your own first exposure to the event,
your own first exposure to that attack as a Frenchman. Well, that's, you know, after
doing 9-11, which we, you know, in a way we kept doing over and over because we did many versions
of it and every year, every five years then we wanted to add to it to follow these guys.
We did a few documentaries. We did one on the four hour on the White House Chief of Staff,
which was kind of a departure of our traditional kind of fly on the wall, but we wanted to try
different things and same thing always the way is finding, you know, kind of the person behind the
uniform or behind the title, what it's like to be, you know, White House Chief of Staff, the closest
person to a president, even than the first lady. Then we did one on the directors of the CIA,
which is kind of linked a little bit towards terrorism. But then as we were finishing the
one on the CIA, we're editing, we're in New York, receive a phone call of friends saying, you know,
do you know what is happening in Paris right now? It was Friday, November 13, 2015. And as the first
news was trying to trickling in, they were talking about bombs at the stadium and then
shootings at cafes. And immediately we called our parents who are who live in Paris, who we knew
were in the neighborhood around the 10th and 11th arrondissement. And so here we had a very strange
reverse of what had happened on September 11. On September 11, they were the ones in Paris,
agonizing at home and watching on television live as the towers collapsed and being sure that
their sons had just died in front of them. And to answer your question from before, it's only the
two of us, it's only the only siblings. And here it was us watching television, not being able to
reach our parents knowing they were in the neighborhood and freaking out like they had before.
And, you know, we were born and raised in Paris, we spent, you know, 16 and 19 years there. So
and we go back there often. So it's still, you know, it's it's it feels very close to home. And
to see that, to see on television that helplessness that you feel of watching on television, not being
able to do anything, not knowing anything. We were devastated like everyone. And we then started, of
course, in the coming days after that, hearing the stories of heroism. But where the it took a turn
is that actually Chief Pfeiffer, so the chief who saved my my life on 9-11, who I'm incredibly close
with, became after 9-11, the chief of the counterterrorism for the fire department of New
York, gave me a call a few weeks later and said, Can you Jules, can you arrange a trip that I could
go to Paris in a few months with heads of counterterrorism from different fire departments
in in the US and a couple of FBI people. And we'd like to meet everyone in the French department,
in the French department of government, first responders, hospitals, fire, police, SWAT teams,
etc. to see the lessons we could take from that attack, what work what didn't work. And when
unfortunately, not if but when it happens, we can be ready and put things in place that will help us.
And so we found ourselves in March of 2016, going to Paris, I think I were the delegation of about
12 people. And we went to, I had organized to meet with from the Ministry of the Interior,
the Prime Minister, the heads of the of the police, of the SWAT teams, of the fire department, of the
EMS, etc, etc. And as all these professionals together were talking and describing what had
happened, we were kind of I was kind of the the unofficial translator. Here we go. And so we
discovered all of these stories reminded me of what we had lived through on 9-11, the heroism
of the first responders, the heroism of the of the civilians. And after a couple of months,
thinking about it saying, but you know, we have to tell that story, but it's a very complicated
story. And again, we know that, you know, telling a story like this is full of kind of pitfalls of,
you know, we have to do it in the right way and be respectful and not be gratuitous, just like we
had done with 9-11. And so we started first to talk to the big organization, the French government,
the head of the fire department, and the head of the police, which I had met through these
these trips that I had taken. So and and they all said, okay, they all understood where we're coming
from. They had all seen our 9-11 projects and the others that we had done and and then decided to
and started about a long eight months process of starting to get to the civilians in particular
and the local firefighters that had participated that night and been there. And it took it took a
while. It was it was made easier by the fact that Jadon and I were survivors. And so in ourselves,
we were all part of this very strange club where nobody nobody wants to be a member of, but we are,
you know, the survivors of terrorism. And I think in the way that when we met them, we mostly didn't
talk about we wanted to what we wanted to do or their stories, we talked about our story, where we
where we came from, what we lived through the trauma, what how that trauma had a change over
the years, because for them, they were watching it was very young guys in a way, their trauma was
still a year old, which is nothing. And so we're looking at us with about that that time 16 years
on automatic experience, were really enabled them to trust us and understand and speak to them in
a way that others could not. And so we then decide, okay, but you know, all these people
are have agreed for us to do it, but where how do we do it? And that's why we came up to do it
with Netflix, because it was kind of the safest place to that will do it justice. We didn't see
the documentary knowing that it was already to be at least three hours long to do it on a normal
network that would then you know, had would have to cut for commercials or for all that.
That was not the forum for that what the platform that we thought we needed was that for people to
watch it when they wanted to stop when they wanted to be able to watch the to the second parts of it
three months later, six months later, two years later, and not to be rushed to watch it and and
to maybe a broadcaster who kind of wanted to do the best rating numbers. That was not what it was
all about. And so we managed to do to and we're very grateful that Netflix gave us the freedom
to do that kind of almost a talking head documentary with very little images, and trust us to say
compelling story that that film is kind of the the the others the other end of the spectrum from our
original 911, you know, which we started this is 16 years later, we're much more mature. But in the
way we're treating the exact same subject in two different ways. The first one is with the images
that we film as we were protagonists ourselves and inside the other is more a do what the memoir in
a duty of memory. And so which relies more on on the words of these people. And once again,
the courage of the people that that gave us their testimony, and we're candid enough to talk about
what they lived through the civilians, the firefighters, the SWAT members to see that
humanity that same best of us that comes out was so touching that that we wanted we knew we needed
to tell that story. But it's very complimentary to our 911 documentary. Yeah, I mean, it was it
was so incredibly powerful. And like you said, the courage because I mean, I have this on the show
today with the courage that you have to relive that horrific moment to tell the story, knowing
that it's going to help so many people out there. It was the same thing. And I obviously want to
want to get you guys to lead us through that day, at least an overview of it. But the courage that
it took to lose a wife, you know, to see a friend that didn't make it, you know, and then to sit
there and tell the story. And then also, you know, we'll get into it as well. But but some of the
the humor in it amongst all that death and destruction, you know, and we'll talk about that
when we get to that point. But I mean, it was just completely parallel what I saw in 911, what I saw
in 77, you know, with the reports of that and the kind of stiff British upper lip, which I love stiff
upper lip, like screw you terrorists, we're going back to work, maybe very proud to be British.
But yeah, I mean, again, but you saw that community, you saw people banding together,
you saw as with 911, the firefighter in a station, waiting for possibly another bullshit call to come
in. And all of a sudden, the worst case scenario and clearly, as with the the men and women and
FDNY and the surrounding agencies, and then the same in Paris, they clearly were prepared,
they'd done the training, they kept themselves fit. So as a responder, it was amazing that when
they were dropped right in the middle of it, that they had to collect themselves. But then they went
to work. And through that lens, you know, it to me, they walk the walk, there's no better description
than that. No, it's true. And so to go maybe through for the people who read don't really know
what happened. It's it's it's quite crazy, because so it's a Friday night, mid November, and it's it's
a night where it's actually exceptionally warm and wonderful outside. So Parisian as Parisians are
are most of them are at the cafe, drinking a beer, having a cigarette, all the terraces are full,
it's nice, you know, full of life, we're probably arguing about politics or whatever it is, but
and you have a exhibition match, a soccer match playing the the biggest stadium in Paris,
and 70,000 players. And the match is going great. And suddenly a suicide bomber detonates
his explosive vest in the middle of the in front of the stadium outside. No one knows exactly
at that point what is happening. They don't even believe they don't know if it's a terrorist attack,
if it's just you know, an accident or you know, whatever. And the president is president is in
the stadium with the East German counterpart. And over the next I think 33 minutes, three groups of
terrorists would attack three would detonate their suicide bombs, suicide vest outside the stadium.
Six different cafes would be shot by machine guns by a team of roaming terrorists that would drop
them off from their car, spray an entire terrorist, go back in the car, go to the next one.
And at the end of that three more terrorists arriving at a very busy music hall where a concert
of an American rock band is taking place. And we'll start shooting in a theater where there is about
3,000 people. All that within 33 seconds of each other. So imagine on the perspective of first
responders, where you first have reports of bombs in one location, then you're getting
shootings at another, then at another, then at another, then another, then another, then another,
then another. And you had that sense that it's never going to stop. Every time a call would come
in, a different area was under attack by a different terrorist group, commando. And it was
that craziness that on the part of the first responders, police and fire department was
incredibly complicated. And yet, as usual, would rush to the scene. And you see in the documentary
the incredible work of the firefighters who are the first responders, the first one who arrived.
And even the shootings happening are risking their lives to do to to to
to tourniquet and to try to stanch the bleeding and all that. And then what is very
the cumulation all that is that music concert where you have 3,000 people in there, three guys come
in with machine guns and shoot indiscriminately at the crowd. And again, you see the civilians,
the stories of them protecting themselves, protecting someone weaker than them, protecting
complete strangers, either by escaping, either by playing dead and covering them with your body
as as as people are dying all around you. The the the terrorists will then proceed to take 11 hostages
and wait for the police, uh, um, locked themselves in a long but very narrow hallway
with these 11, um, hostages and that host and that hostage negotiation will then take place.
And when you talk about the humor, what we wanted to show is that humor is a very important part,
I think, of healing. And but it's also a way that, you know, uh, uh, our brain kind of, uh,
enables us to to protect ourselves. Humor sometimes comes out when you stress, you know,
you laugh and all that. And these these moments where you can think that, you know, how can you
even think about laughing when two terrorists are pointing AK-47s at your heads that they're
playing with the detonator where you can see on their vest full of explosive and they're holding
you your feet away from them. It's in these moments that the crazy, uh, surreal reality happens. And
here it happens when the SWAT team, amazing people, whether it is in the U.S. or in France,
but here in Paris, these SWAT team members who, you know, know it's going to be complicated. It's
a narrow hallway. You have 11 hostages. You have two terrorists armed to the teeth, AK-47 explosives.
You're going to have to breach at some point, which is, you know, it's going to be bad for you
and for the hostages. And yet, as they try to negotiate to buy some time, the negotiator has
the thickest Southern accent you can imagine. And so comes that surreal moment where he tries to give
the number to call on the cell phone to negotiate and all that, except no one understands him. And
the hostages have to repeat for about 15 times the number. And it becomes kind of a sketch
that you think comes out of Saturday Night Live if it was not so terrible. All this is to say that
you find these moments where you look at the documentary and laugh and almost feel ashamed.
No, no, I should not laugh. The hostages themselves and the people there that will tell
that crazy moment when you think life is going to, to, to, to be over in an instant,
a moment of laughter, a smile, a twinkle in the eye, holding someone's hand or just a square inch
of flesh in yours can mean the difference between life and death, mentally and physically. And so
what we wanted to see in the candidness of these incredible testimonies of, not only because they're
talking about their courage, but for some because they're talking about that, yes, the truth is
the terrorist pointed a machine gun at his head and said, go get my, my, my, my bag full of charges.
If not, I'll kill you and I'll kill your friend. And he says, but I go there and I pick up the bag
and I feel guilty because I'm giving them more ammo, but I don't want to die. And I think to
have the honesty to say that is incredibly courageous, but also very human. And I think
it's to be applauded. All of them that participated, the act of telling your story
is an act of courage because it is not easy. It is not fun for the most part. It was, it was
difficult. It was long. It was, it was heavy, but it, it helps you. It heals you to be able to tell
you story. And here these people in particular who, for the ones in the Bataclan, the one in the
council venue who had been taken hostage for two hours, that this moment of their lives had been
taken away from them. These two hours of their, of their life was, was taken hostage by the, the
terrorist to be able to tell their story minute by minute, what they saw, what they felt, what they
smelled was a way to reclaim what had been stolen from them. And so it was very important that it
was an act of courage, of resilience and healing on their part.
Yeah. You got anything to add before I kind of throw some things at you, Gidion?
Go ahead, go ahead. Okay. So, so I mean, like I said, anyone listening, this is an absolute must
listen as a human being, as a first responder. I mean, excuse me, as a much, what must watch. I
mean, it was such a, absolutely one of the most powerful things I've ever seen and being a
responder myself, you know, I can invest in that even, even further, but a few of the takeaways,
and obviously you don't want to go over the whole entire thing, but a few things I think that were
very powerful to me. The first one was you mentioned the, the, the, the, the, the, the
the French prime minister was there. Is it prime minister or president?
You had the president and the interior, the minister of the interior. Okay.
President. The president of the stadium. Yeah.
Okay. We'll make sure I get the right title. So it's a, it's a Germany versus France game.
And so when the initial explosions go off, it's outside the stadium, even though it sounds like
one of the terrorists tried to make their way into the stadium. And what I was very impressed
with was the fact that he chose to tell them to keep playing, to, to try not to arouse suspicion
that first you're like, Oh, well, that's easier said than done. But then in the next breath,
they say that his own son is in the stadium. So I thought that was very powerful because he's not
making it now for strangers. He's including his own family member. And that decision undoubtedly
saves lives. But the amazing part is he has very little information. It's actually the fire
commander in the stadium that the president goes towards and said, what do you think? And the, and
the fire department official there says, we don't know what's happening. We have two choices. If we
don't, if we stop and panic people, we might have a frenzy. There's 70,000 people there. If we tell,
if we stop the game and say, okay, let's evacuate. We don't know what's outside.
And so he makes that very difficult decision to keep everyone inside, including his son. It is a
very personal one. And fortunately, it was the best because if, if they would have panic people,
they would have been a stampede and people would have died from that. If they would have let them
outside yet two more suicide bombers unbeknownst to them that were waiting that exploded themselves
a bit later on. So, but again, you know, making the right decision sometime it's, it's inches and
seconds is the, is the difference between life and death. And, and these decisions are hard to take,
but fortunately they were the right ones. Absolutely. Well, another, another thing that,
that I thought was very powerful is as it unfolds. And, and, you know, again, you said about the
heroism, the way that the first responders, a lot of them obviously were the firefighters initially
segregated off, you know, sectioned off, they had the group leader and the, the person assisting
and they started triaging and they, you know, the innovation, like using the barriers as stretches,
you know, some of those things, but you saw people banding together, you saw these responders acting,
just like you said, there was no, what we call warm zone. They had no idea if that one of those
people in the crowd was another one with a gun or a bomb that was going to kill himself. So
initially knowing, like you said, there's chaos and ultimately what seemed to be a journey south to
the Bataclan, it was just the, the heroism of these men and women, like you said, sheltering people,
you know, the actual responders themselves. And I think a very powerful moment to me that's kind of
summed up from the responders lens was the doctor, medicine, I think it was, who had been on scene,
he was kind of orchestrating the response. He had a chest wound patient. He told him the heart hold
pressure, obviously got caught up with all the other triage that was going on. And then when he
came back, that person had passed away in that same seated position. And even though he was
trying to maintain his composure, you could see in his eyes, knowing responders, that that moment
is definitely stayed with him. And what's, if I may, what's incredible. So he's a fire department
doctor, which means he's military. He was deployed, he's done Afghanistan, he's done Mali. So he's
been on theaters of war, he's treated war wounds and all that. And here to see it, and you see it
in his eyes, in the cafe that he knows that he's been to that restaurant. And then he talks about
that. And just because he's doing triage, and there's 30 other people, and for 30 other people,
it's at least, you know, 20 seconds per person. And by the time he comes back that that person has
died, and to see almost a tear in his eye and holding that emotion, you see that humanity that
rises to the surface that all of them, even though they did an incredible job, can you imagine you
arrive at a terrace where you have 28 seats, 24 people are dead on that terrace or dying. And
you're at first two trucks, and everyone has to do everything. It is unbelievable the work they've
done, the people they managed to save, was an Aeocurlian effort coordinating with the civilians
themselves who were helping. But they all talk about one thing, they all talk about when they
would treat people, the people themselves, the victim would say, don't take care of me, take care
of the next person, they're much worse off, I'll be okay, take care of my neighbor, take care of
people that they don't know. And that was really what struck them is, again, that sense of protection
for the other, for caring for the other above themselves.
Yeah, I think another powerful moment for me, you had the one lady, and I meant to write the names
of all these people, but I forgot, but I guess it's probably a good thing I didn't because
people listening probably don't know which person it was anyway. But there was a couple in the
Bataclan, so now those three terrorists have come in, you've got 1500 people at this rock concert,
they are literally executing to the point where there are piles, mountains of bodies. And this
couple finds their way into, was it a bathroom where they got into the ceiling space? And this
one lady is heavier, she's obese, and she's trying to get in, and obviously as you're
recounting it, you can imagine, especially she's probably wearing heels or something as well,
and she's trying to climb up into this section that they found in the ceiling,
and she keeps falling. And she says, and you can almost see this, all these people waiting
to get up into this safe haven away from these murderers, and this one woman is big and she
can't get up there, so immediately you think she's going to say, and then everyone pushed her out the
way and they went up themselves. But she said that the complete opposite, that the people were cheering
her on and helping her get up there, and she got up there. And I thought that was an incredible
moment of humanity because you would think the stampede selfishness effect would kick in, but it
was the polar opposite, and they basically helped her emotionally and physically get in that hole
before they got in themselves. Gédéon, I'm talking too much.
You're the one who took the best here. As you said, it's one of those moments where you expect
the worst, but the best happens. This lady who's here with her husband, they've drove on the same
day, hours, in their small cars coming from the north of France to listen to one of their best
rock bands. And here they are finally, and the two kids are at home, the babysitter is taking care.
They finally have the evening for themselves, they go to Paris, and they know they're going to
have a great time. And the next thing they know, you have three terrorists shooting at everybody
around them, and the wound of an AK-47 is horrible. So they arrive along with maybe 20, 30
people in a tiny little room. They try to lock the door, but it doesn't really lock.
They are in this room where they don't know what to do. There are no windows, no escape route,
no door to the door. They're still here. The gun fires. And suddenly someone says there is a hole
through the toilet ceiling, which is a small area in the back. And so little by little, people are
getting up there. And to get up there, you have to put one foot on the toilet,
and then the second foot on maybe the area where you put the toilet paper. Anyway, it's not that
easy. But come the turn of this woman, and as you said, she's kind of, yeah, she's obese, and it's
very hard for her. The first time, her foot goes through the toilet. The second time, she falls on
her husband. And yet, at that time, they're looking at each other. She's feeling so guilty
that every second she's wasting, the terrorists are going to open the door and kill everybody,
and it will be her fault. But no, the people behind her who's making a line are cheering her
and saying, you can do it. And finally, she managed to do it with maybe, I think, a foot
on her husband's head, and her other foot, someone is helping her with their hands. And the next
thing they know, all those people are in this kind of strange place between the roof and the ceiling,
and they are safe. At least they think, and they hear the sound of the guns all over. And
they don't know that for the next two hours, they are finding refuge exactly on the ceiling above
where the venue is, where the stage is, and pretending to be dead among tents who are actually
dead. Everybody is lying down. And that's the scene of hell. That was the Bataclan.
Yeah, and it was such a powerful moment. I think the other one, there's one more thing I want to
talk about and then we'll go to Notre Dame, because I know we're almost at two hours now,
is the other thing I think was very haunting was one of the women had the realization
that three terrorists commanded the action of 1500 men and women. And there was that realization of
ultimately, what if we had rushed them? What if we had gone? Then some of us would have been killed,
but the rest would have been saved. But I think it was a very powerful lens into the fact that fear
can paralyze us. And obviously, I'm sure they seemed like there was more than three of them,
too, with all the horrendous executions that were going on. But I'm sure that's something that's
going to haunt her to the day. Again, you could see it in her face that so many people were killed.
130 I think that day in the end, wasn't it? In Paris altogether it was 190. 190? Oh, I got that wrong.
Okay. There's 130, 90 at the Bataclan, but it's 130, I apologize. Oh, no problem.
Okay, yeah. So, I mean, a huge amount. But again, easier said than done. Any one of us
probably would have been trying to find our void space in the ceiling somewhere to get away as well.
But that was a powerful moment that how, again, how a weapon can completely offset
the quote unquote fair fight and put innocent civilians and make them so vulnerable. I mean,
I just had people from the pulse attacks on a few weeks ago, same exact thing. So just to kind of
put it out, I thought that was a very powerful moment as well. Yeah, because I think that's where
you see really the, it talks to the helplessness of it. And when she says in her interview,
it's really I can't believe that three jackass because I think that's what she is, are, you know,
we're the we're 1500. And we're the mercy of three jackasses with guns. And it's yes, it's the power
of fear and terror because this is the point of terrorism is terrorizing people and making them
flee and making them full of fear and paralyzing them. But yet, as we see that we see the country
is, you know, I think this documentary is in a way, a perfect few to to to terrorism, because
I think the country happened you the moment where they wanted to terrorize us and paralyze us.
That's where you saw the most incredible moments of courage, of compassion, of love in the middle
of the horror and hate. And that's, I think, is really the the what what what really prevailed.
And that's what we should hang on to. I think we've always and you know, was talking about that at
the beginning, the way these people behave, I think is always is really for us kind of vaccine
against depression against that, you know, that thinking of everything, the world is such a
horrible place, because when you hear the the radio or the television, you know, it's not very. But
when you see that the moments like this, you know, people can be so beautiful, so amazing. I think
that's you need that you need that that kind of little shot in the arm that says, Okay, you know,
if they could do it, of course I can, or I need to try. Absolutely. Well, just one more element of
that. And then I want to once it to Notre Dame, can be mindful of your time. I think the other
very powerful thing and again, for the responders listening, I mean, I, I did my best to become the
best version of me was I perfect? No, was I the best firefighter paramedic? No. But I mean, I think
that's something we all push towards. But I think it's very important to highlight that when the
SWAT team actually made entry to terrorists with semi automatic weapons that had bomb vests around
them, it took them one minute and six seconds to neutralize the threat in a narrow hallway with
hostages. So I don't think there's any better illustration of you are the sum of all your
training up to that point, whether it's an organization with this individual, the that
could have ended with a failure, lots of dead hostages and police officers and maybe a further
rampage because they just killed all the cops that came and so they could go back in and do some more.
So what was your perspective on that? Well, I think the SWAT team commander, which is a fantastic
human being who had the words that, you know, at the kosher supermarket earlier in January,
who had been with his SWAT team there after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. And here he's faced with
an impossible situation, which he says actually to the to the chief of police who asked him,
are we going to be OK when you breach? And the commander of the SWAT says, you know, stupidly,
I told him the truth. I said, no, it's not going to be OK because we're a narrow hallway. We have
11 hostages. We have two guys with AK-47 and suicide vest. And I'm going to lose probably
half of my guys and half of the the hostages. But we have no other choice. We have to do it.
And we're willing to take this. And when the commander is about to breach, he actually does
something that he never does before. He checks in with his men and said, are you guys OK with it?
Is there superior? He doesn't have to ask them whether they feel OK about the mission or not.
But he wanted to make sure they realized what they were about to do. And all of them to a T
were saying, of course, let's go in. We know we know the risk. Let's do it. And to see that,
again, that time distortion when the hostages talk about that breach for them, it lasts half an hour.
But we found the tape of it. And it's a minute and six seconds where the guys are emptying clips
of AK-47 into a giant shield that protects the SWAT teams. And the result of that, after that
one minute and six seconds, the two terrorists will be dead. One by detonating is a suicide vest.
The other will be shot before he could do so. There's not a single cop who's there is one cop
who's hurt with a bullet to the end, but that's it. And none of the hostages are hit. So it is
almost like a miracle operation because technically half of them should have died. So the courage
and the you know, of these incredible SWAT members, which I'm close to some of them and I
really admire them the same way I admire the firefighters. They were incredible that night.
And it's people who are willing to put their lives on the line for all of us that, you know,
command our respect and for us to be grateful.
Beautiful. Well, Gédien, I know you've got to go soon. So before you do, I want to get you in one
more time. And I'm sorry that we've gone so far and you got to pick up your kid. Just quickly,
so tell me about Notre Dame. I was actually in Paris in 2016. So a year after the attacks,
but before the fire. So we've literally got pictures outside Notre Dame. So again,
as Parisianers, tell me about that event and what made you want to do another documentary on them?
Well, we like many people around the world, we watch on TV or on a computer screen.
This monument, you know, slightly, I mean, completely disappearing before our eyes. And
and it was not just any monument. It was it was Notre Dame de Paris. It was the cathedral of
Notre Dame. It was this place where everybody who has been lucky enough to travel to Paris
had seen it and maybe visited inside. It was this homage to what human being can do
to that is so beautiful that is whether you are a believer or not, it did not matter. It was
it was it was a beautiful piece of culture of architecture. It represented so much. It was built
over 800 years ago at a time where it was just insane to conceptualize how to build something so
monumental that would stand time. There was revolutions, there was kings and emperors and
government that tried to destroy it. Time alone was not, you know, nice to this beautiful place.
But but somehow it was all the it was all the the the the the the the crisis of time. And so
it's one of those monuments where you know, you're alive and wherever you are in the world,
you're thinking, OK, everything is going bad. You know, you switch on TV, you look at your
you listen to your podcast, your radio, the world is going mad. But at least you can be pretty sure
that some monuments in the world, some some things that are really standing and that will be standing
for the rest of time. And Notre Dame de Paris for everything that it represented was one of those
one of those monuments, you know, the pyramid of Egypt, anything you can think of that just
you the seven beauties of the world. But but here it was it was being destroyed in front of you.
I mean, this thing that that was making your life more grounded suddenly was disappearing in smoke.
And and and so Jules and I, yeah, we lived it live like most people and
were so relieved when we discovered that the fire department of Paris had managed to to save the
Notre Dame. And and of course, we thought, you know, there got to be more to it than just guys
and girls coming in and and putting water on on it. And and that's when we discovered, again,
thanks to Chief Pfeiffer, that and Jules relations with the French fire department, that the rescue
of Notre Dame was nothing but easy, that Notre Dame should have been destroyed 10 times that evening.
And if it was not for the absolute abnegation and sacrifice of the firefighters, stories that were
not told, stories that people of Paris and France didn't know about. Yeah, we it would be Paris
without Notre Dame, which is something insane to think about, like Egypt without the the the
the pyramids. And and so so so we we we started to to talk to the firefighters and discovered that
that what they had gone through, what they what they fought was was just insane. And and Jules,
please, please go. I'm so sorry, I have to run. No, please. Thank you so much. You've been so
generous with your time. It was a great honor to to to to be on your show. Your show is amazing.
Thank you so much. Jules, forgive me. I have to present the kids. I'll handle your answers.
I'll have to do a thicker French accent, but I think we'll just pretend to be both that.
Okay. But so no, but it was really that. You know, we the relationship we had already created with
the the the head of the of the fire department, which I changed. It was not the same from November
13. But it was his deputy, which I got to know a lot of Paris firefighters and SWAT teams from Paris
did a lot of trips coming to New York and that I would I would greet them when they would arrive
with Chief Pfeiffer and there were lots of exchange that we've done over the years. And so
we have a great relationship with these with these people. And I called the chief of the
fire department in Paris a couple of a couple of weeks after and to tell him, but you know,
we were all so proud, we were all watching and in awe of what you guys did. And he said, you know,
they have so many incredible stories. You know, I think you should maybe do a documentary about it.
So went to Paris to meet with them and discovered once again, you know, this the the this
incredible courage not only of the firefighters, but of the civilians that came to help the people
work in the church who came to work, the people were working on the on the scaffolding that came
to to help also. And it's that also that comedy of error, that humor that we were talking about
on November 13, that is almost there. That kind of another kind of you have the impression is
cyanide life sketch of when they go to try to to retrieve the crown of thorn, because the crown of
thorn is supposed to be in in in a safe in at Notre Dame, except that, you know, so they you
have to imagine this building, the entire roof is on fire, and firefighters are on teams working on
all the facade up down on the right on the left in the north in the south. And one team in particular
is in is in charge of saving the artwork and and all of the relics, because there is actually a
department in a special department in the fire department that takes care of firefighters in
charge of saving works of arts who operate in museums and all that because it is something that
you have to think about, you know, don't go put water on Leonardo da Vinci or something like that
on a painting. So but it's and so, you know, here are these firefighters who at first, you know,
were so excited, great, I'm going to go fight the fire on the realm, because it's firefighters and
firefighters, you have that amazing duality where you don't want bad things to happen. But if there
is a big fire, you want to be the one who is the first to and we'll we'll get to it. It's and so
he arrives out great, we're going to be able to go up there, go close to the fire, I'll be with the
nozzle will be amazing and all that. And the chief said, Well, I'm sorry, but you need to go and find
the crown of thorn and all that. Okay, I'm not very religious. But okay, let's go find it. And
and comes that committee of error where they have to look for a safe, they look everywhere. As he
says, he looks behind paintings, he looks on the floors, he moves everything while the roof is on
fire, and lead is is melting and is falling like a cascade of lava in the middle. And so they have to
be careful that it doesn't fall on them. They finally found the safe, break the safe, come out
triumphant triumphantly with the the crown of thorn. And as he says, you know, I'm carrying really
at the top like this, because I want to break it, I don't want to break the the thorns because you
know, the crown of thorns without thorns, I will can I'll get into trouble. So he comes in out and
here comes the curator of the of Notre Dame said, and here we see this amazing firefighter so proud
to come in and unfortunately, we have to tell him it's not the right one. That's the display one.
And they go back into another treasure hunt to try to find it where they are. So it's it's what we
wanted to show like in most of our program. Reality is messy, is beautiful, is funny, is dramatic.
But that's the beauty of human nature, you can you can overcome everything with with humor and
with love. And so here, to see these incredible firefighters who, what we didn't realize at the
time, you know, are a few of them are decide to go up and are sent in a suicide mission in a way.
There is no one in the in no civilians anymore in Notre Dame, the the church has been the
cathedral has been evacuated. But the two towers which holds the bells, the bells are weights about
eight to 10 tons each, and there's about 10 of them. And they realize that inside of these towers,
the frame that holds the bell is all made out of wood. And it's starting to to to to catch fire,
which means that at some point, the beams are going to collapse, the bells are going to go come
crashing down, and you'll have a domino effect and the entire cathedral is going to implode into
itself. And here is the head of the fire department, who is faced with two choices. One, he does
nothing pulls everybody out, let the building collapse, the world will lose one of these new
most beautiful icons of architecture and faith and and and art. But you know, no one will take
place or you send a commando that knowing that you have about half an hour before the collapse,
who have to try to put water on the beams that are holding the the bells and save the entire
Elvis at the cost of their lives. And and the the the chief of the fire department goes and talks
to the French president, explain to him the the the the choices. And the president said,
go for it. And you have a commando of about 10 firefighters who go up and will fight their way
inside of the tower fight their way up the the stairs and will will actually extinguish the fire
probably five minutes service five minutes to spare. But within these five minutes, it could
have been the end of all these firefighters and and that amazing monuments. So you have all of
these incredible and what I love is these firefighters like all firefighters took it in
such beautiful terms that it's not fancy, it's not you know, they don't have degrees in in in
in artistic writing and all that. But it comes from the heart and it's quite profound and it's
quite moving. When they talk about their their their their their love for their fellow firefighters
for the love for their job, the love for Paris, the love for for for for what they are going to
do. And it's it's simple and it's it's touching. And once again, inspires us because that's what
what we always want once we were groupies of firefighters. So we want to every time we can
praise them, we'll do it. But these are, you know, these amazing heroes and reminds us at a moment
where we think everything can be over. Well, not not always. You still have that glimmer, that
spark of hope is in all of us. And that's what we have to remind people, especially this this year,
or at least this year, I should say. Yeah, well, I mean, absolutely. And I think that's what I saw
as again, as a fireman, so understanding the logistics, the actual dangers of what they did
and even just the fact they even had water so far up, you know, going to go through all these like
ancient stairwells. I'm amazed they even managed to get a water supply in the first place. But
to to have to be standing under wooden structures that are holding bells of that size, they knew if
if if one of those broke, that was it, they were all going to get, you know, taken down with the
bell and obviously killed immediately. But but again, and you you know, that firsthand,
when you're a firefighter, you don't think about that you think about it, it's in the back of your
head, because that's what makes you a good firefighter, you're not oblivious to the danger,
you are aware of the danger and you take into consideration. But you know why you're here.
And at the same time, you know, it's the best feeling in the world is you go into a firehouse
of after a good job, the smiles all around and it's smells like fireplace on their bunk against
gear and everyone is happy because they've done a good job or they save people. That's that's the
best reward is helping out someone at the end of the day. Absolutely. Well, a couple things I want
to touch on that one. So firstly, just like Tony, you had a rookie, but this time it was a female
firefighter who had not seen fire until this point. For two weeks, she's on you have to think
a woman firefighter, young, fantastic, lots of courage, lots of heart. She's been on the job
for I think, two weeks or two months. I don't remember. And her first job is actually a
Notre Dame. She's first due, which means she's the first truck to arrive. They go up all the way to
the inside of the roof. And there is a little door that comes into the roof. It's full of smoke.
The fire has started probably half an hour ago. They go in, doesn't see anything. She goes with her
officer. They're attached to a rope and they go up. They don't see anything and it's getting
warmer and warmer and warmer. And she doesn't she's never been to a fire. So she says, OK,
it's getting hot, but I don't want to say anything because, you know, I don't know if I'm supposed
to say anything. And, you know, I don't want to do a good job. And at some point, her officer
turns around and says, let's go out. It's too hot. And indeed, when they come out, they start to see
that they're all on their bunker gear is almost like shining in a metallic way. It's because the
lead that the outside of the roof is all lead sheets was melting and was melting on them in pools
of molten lava in a way. And we're starting to burn them. And their helmets started to melt.
It was so hot. And here she is. That's her first fire. And she incredibly bravely goes in the
middle of the fire itself and then would fight all night on this. You know, you always have
you know, these these little things of having another rookie there. I think for November 13,
it ended up that there was a cameraman in one of the fire trucks and that was first due to one of
the cafes. So you always have a little life is very strange and repeats itself. Yeah. Well,
with the molten lead, I think one of the most powerful images was the gargoyle with the lead
spilling out of his mouth. Where normally it would be water. And here you have this molten lead being
spitted out of the statues like this. It's quite an incredible sight. Very eerie. They all describe
it as that eeriness, especially because, you know, it's whether you've seen Notre Dame in
in the Hunchback of Notre Dame on Disney with the Hunchback, you know, or you've seen the different
movies. It's it represents it's more than just a church. It evokes something, whether you're French,
you're American, you're wherever. It was more than a building. It is more than a building. Each stone
has a little bit of part of our common humanity in all of us because it belongs to the world,
these kind of places. Yeah. I'm assuming that the bells rang following Bastille. I mean,
some very powerful moments in French history. But yes, they did. And they were the the the the
war after the each each war war. And it was an amazing moment. The one we discovered, you know,
that part of Paris, it's on Ile de la Cité, which is one of the two islands right smack in the middle
of Paris itself on the Seine River that traversed the the the town. And that little island is a
little bit like it's a small village into itself. You know, they're there. They're they're they have
their own kind of little culture. They kind of look at outsiders strangely and all that. And
and here they would talk about, you know, Notre Dame is almost the breathing beating heart of that
of that little village. They hear it's it's it sounds when the bells ring when the all that.
And suddenly after the fire, the that beautiful monument had gone silent and gone mute. And they
would describe it almost like a patient that had gone into a coma. And we're waiting for it to to
to speak and wake up and breathe again. And a few months after the fire, the former French president
died, Jacques Chirac, and it's customary to normally ring the bells except the bells. There's
no more electricity. There's no more that except that the the people at Notre Dame decides to go
up and ring the bell by hand by attaching a rope to the to the knocker. And all of us because they
invited me to come with them were rolling for 45 minutes, ring the bells of Notre Dame, the biggest
one, which is 13 ton by hand, which was a surreal experience. And when we came back down, people
stopped the the the people that went up and said, you finally gave us back our our beating heart.
To hear her it was like that comatose patient that woke up and said, I'm still alive. I'm still here.
So it really represents you have so many things that that that that place represents for people
of Paris, for people of the world, for people of France. Beautiful. Well, I think that's a perfect
place to kind of end the conversation there. I just have some few closing questions I love to ask
people. I'd love to get your your mind as well. The first one is, is there a book that you love
to recommend to people that can be related to what we've discussed today or something completely
different? OK, I'll have to find it again. I remember one of the things and I think that
corresponds to that. There was an amazing book that I had read extracts when I was in high school
in France growing up that they they made you read. And it was I think it was the letters
that were sent by the people that were put to before it takes place during the Second World
War in France. And it was the resistance fighters and their last letters before they were executed
by the Germans. And in these you found this incredibly touching letter. And I remember reading
one in particular of a young 16 year old boy who was about to be executed for being part of the
resistance. And he was executed by the Nazis writing a last letter to his mother, asking her
not to cry because of what he had done. He had lived and he had done it in a way to save people,
to save life and to preserve freedom. And in these moments of selflessness, I've always been
touched by that. That these people like firefighters, like police officers, like first responders
who are willing to put their lives on the line for the rest of us. And I always find that. And
that book that always struck me. I'll have to find it again and give it to you. But
you put me on the spot. Sorry. Beautiful. Thank you. That's a great, great answer.
What about movies? Is there a movie? Not a documentary, but a regular, like, you know,
fictional film that you like? But a lot. That's a problem. I watch, you know, a whole lot of
television and film and series and all that. So I'll go in first and see and documentaries. And
again, it's maybe on the same subject, but you have an incredible documentary on World War Two
in France and the resistance called The Sorrow and the Pity by Max Ophuls. It's just about four hours
long. It's it was filmed, I think, 15 years after the war. And it's a fascinating look into
normal human beings who suddenly find themselves, you know, their world put upside down. And that's
the occupation at that time and having to fight even though they're not, you know, they're not
trained and not all that and how, you know, you face evil. So it always kind of relates to the
things in terms of movies. Oh, there's too many of them. It's it's hard to think in the movie
I'll have to think by genre and all that. But that's too hard. There's too many of them.
Beautiful. That was a great I've never heard of The Sorrow and the Pity before, but it's funny,
I meant to say as well when we started the very first explosion in on November 13th was in a
stadium where France and Germany were playing a friendly match. And again, that goes to show that
people, you know, innately are good. And sometimes some bad people get put in positions of power or
you know, whether it's power governmentally, whether it's power because of a weapon they hold.
But ultimately, we're just men and women who want to feed our children, put a roof over our heads,
you know, and watch them grow up. And that's what you see in every conflict, you never, you know,
people of all sorts, you know, the are stepping up against tyranny, no matter their their where
they're from, no matter their what country they're part of, their their religion and all that,
that spark of hope and humanity is in all of us and we see it time and time and time and time again.
Absolutely. All right. Well, the next question, is there a person you recommend to come on this
podcast as a guest to talk to the first responders, military and associates?
Piper.
Yes.
Piper. And yes, I'll talk to him. I'll see if he's interested and I'll ask him to reach out to you if
he is.
Beautiful. Thank you. And actually on that same token, because, you know, like, for example,
you mentioned the helmet's one of the things that drives me crazy is people looking down their nose
at firefighters from other countries because they don't wear what I call the leather sombrero that
we have here, you know, that the antiquated helmet and people in the fire service love it and they
hate pistol grips. But the reality is the men and women of the fire service around the world
do the same job. You know, so that's the kind of message that I want. But I would love to get a
member of Sapo Pompier, the Paris French firefighter, but obviously they have to speak
English. If there was one that had been at both events or one or the other.
I can talk to you. Let me see what I can do. Let me think of a couple of heads. I can think of a
couple of them. One would be great is the one who is chief of the fire department on November 13,
but he's a very, very, very busy man still. So I don't know. But if not, I can try to think of
firefighters that were at both either Charlie Hebdo on November 13 and Notre Dame. I have a couple
of friends. I'll reach out to them. I'll see which one has the better English.
Beautiful. Thank you so much. All right. So then the very last question before I let you go,
before we make sure everyone knows, you know, how to find the films you've done,
if there's anything that you do want to say as far as future projects that won't be bad luck.
What do you do to decompress?
Being very French, I cook to decompress. It's, you know, basic simple pleasures in life. I will
cook. I will garden. I will have amazing meals with my friends and drink a nice bottle of wine.
And that was my family. And right now it's around the fireplace and just normal things.
The really normal things just, you know, enjoy the people who are around me. That's, that's,
you know, what I take from all that. Every single, you know, happy moments is to be treasured.
Like it's the last one and it doesn't have to be a big thing. It could be, you know, this amazing
moment where you have a dinner party. Well, nowadays this past year wouldn't have a few,
but you know, where everyone is having a great time and laughter is echoing through the,
through the, the apartment and, you know, that's all it takes. That's the happiness for me.
Beautiful. Yeah. And I think that's, that's something that's been the negative this last year,
even though this last year is what you make of it. And in comparison to, you know, some of the,
the events we've discussed, it was a very good year for most people, but yeah, that, that tribal
element, that, that community I think is so important. We need, we need our social contact.
It defines who we are as a species. So absolutely. It's taken away. It gets,
but it will be good again. We've lived through, through, through on this earth through much,
much worse. It will pass. It will be horrible. And we have to remember the loss and the people
who've, we've lost along the way and celebrate their life and their courage, but this too shall
pass. Yes. Yeah. And I think just like what we've discussed as well, we've been taught some lessons.
We've been taught some lessons on our country's wellness. We've been taught some lessons on the
environment. So I hope we will take those lessons with us and improve in the future.
But we all have to, I think it's Chief Pfeiffer, who always talk when he talks about the trauma
we've all lived. He said the most, you know, when you live a trauma like that, you have two choices.
One, you don't learn anything from it. You don't gain anything from it. And all this is for nothing.
Or two is you, you try to find something positive in all of this. You want to be able to learn
something positive in all of this. You remember it always, but you don't let it define you. You take
it inside of you. You let it transform or add something positive to your life. And then you
move on while never forgetting, but do not be defined by that. And so that's the things we have
to do. And same thing by this is that's, that does not define us. Let's we've learned all have lessons
from this. Let's take positive ones and move on and remember this moment.
Beautiful. Well, one, I did put some, some posts out asking if people had questions and I think
there was a couple. One, do you still stay connected with the department? Obviously you've
told us that you're good friends with Chief Pfeiffer. Still good. Firehouse every now and
then, which is always amazing, even though there was very few, I think from the 55 that worked
there, there's probably three from that day. So, you know, every now and then I arrive and there's
a rookie opened the door and said, yes, sir, how can I help you? I said, yeah, go, go wish the rig
and go make me a coffee and then I'll go and see the guys. But, you know, it's fun. It has a magical
feeling for me. Beautiful. And then the other one is people ask about a follow-up, but obviously
we're about to hit 20 years without jinxing you and getting to, to, no, no, no. Well, we've always,
every five years, we've always did kind of, we called an update towards the end. We always do a
half an hour of, after the documentary on, you know, what have these people become, what has
happened or highlighting certain things happening, whether it was the, the, the psychological trauma,
we did that for the fifth year anniversary for the 10 year, it was more, unfortunately, the people
starting to die and we had lost two close friends, firefighters from the firehouse due to that. So,
for the 20th, we're, we're in talks right now too, but we'll most probably do an update for that
point. But it's, it's still a little bit early right now, but we're considering it, of course.
Beautiful. Well, Jules, I just want to say thank you so much. I mean, this random English bloke
reached out, you know, and I want to actually before, I want to say thank you as well, the Kate
Casey, because I had been looking for you guys for a long time. As I mentioned before, I totally
understand the nature of, of what you do and just your personalities that you don't want to be
out there. But when Kate had managed to do that incredible conversation with you on her podcast,
in response to mine, someone tagged us, she immediately messaged me and sent me your email.
So we're having this conversation because of her, but, but yeah, I want to say thank you so much.
We've been talking for two and a half hours, but you know, the, the, the lens that you have through
from nine, you know, from, from New York through to Paris, I think is invaluable. And even though
the documentary speak volumes, your, you know, yours and Gédion's story through your eyes,
through your words, I think is something that a lot of us haven't heard. So thank you so much
for being so generous today.
Oh no, my pleasure. And thank you to you and all the, these amazing first responders, you know,
where we're, all we do is, is, is really an homage to them and a way to say thank you in a way that
we'll never be able to thank them enough. You know, they're what, how can you thank someone who
saved your life? So it's our pleasure and it's our honor to be able to, to help in any small way.
So it was a fun conversation. I really appreciate it.