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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10,

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show former Navy SEAL, law enforcement officer, flight medic, secret service agent

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and current firefighter paramedic, Frank Larkin.

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Now in this conversation we discuss a host of topics from his journey into the military,

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his transition as a Navy corpsman into the SEAL teams, law enforcement, paramedicine,

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his transition story, his son Ryan's enlistment into the SEAL teams, traumatic brain injuries,

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how he worked through the grief of losing Ryan to suicide, the mental health crisis

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and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier

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for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 950 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you, Frank Larkin.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Frank, I want to start by saying thank you so, so much for being so generous with

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your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, thank you, James.

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Again, looking forward to this conversation and we come from common backgrounds and certainly

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interested in hopefully informing some of your listeners about what we're dealing with

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and trying to do about it.

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Absolutely.

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So very first question, where on planet earth are we finding you today?

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I am hailing from Annapolis, Maryland.

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It's a sunny, somewhat tepid day here.

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We've been beaten by brutal temperatures the past number of weeks, but today's actually

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a pleasant day to be outside and doing stuff.

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Brilliant.

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Yeah, it's like they left the door open in hell here in Florida, if I'm being completely

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honest.

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You just have a shower and then two minutes later you're drenched again.

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I would love to start at the very beginning of your timeline though.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Sure.

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I was born in the Philadelphia area.

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I grew up in the suburbs, family of eight, two parents.

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My father was into advertising.

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My mother was a homemaker that then self-educated herself, became a nurse and then eventually

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into real estate.

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I have five brothers and sisters that each in our own way are different, but have been

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fairly successful in life.

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Like I said, a middle-class upbringing, fortunate to have a fairly stable household environment.

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You mentioned that your mom was a nurse and obviously that's a form of service, no doubt.

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Were there any other members of the extended family that were in the military or first

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members?

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No, no.

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I was the first started out as a volunteer at the age of 16 in my community with an ambulance

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squad.

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This is before they had EMTs and doing our best to help people out of tough situations

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back then.

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What were some of the calls that you remember from that chapter of your life?

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I think probably the thing that got me into it was my sister on Easter day one morning

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was riding down a sidewalk in front of our house, a little bit of a hill and flipped

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over her handlebars and wound up striking her head.

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Just having a compound fracture of the skull was knocked unconscious and was not in good

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shape.

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I remembered that as we ran to help her, and I would say I was probably my early teens

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at this point, I was a boy scout, had had some first aid training, but I saw my parents

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completely lose it, which is understandable, but they had no training.

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They had no background on what to do.

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I wound up calling an ambulance, at which point my father just couldn't even wait the

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time for it to respond.

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Picked up my sister and drove 100 miles an hour to the hospital, carried her in through

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the emergency department where they proceeded to work on her and fortunately she survived.

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But I said to myself at that point, I'm never going to be in a position where I'm not going

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to know what to do and how to handle a situation like that.

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That kicked me off in the direction of EMS.

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What sent your mom into nursing as well?

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I think she was always a caregiver.

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She was a very compassionate lady, had a great bedside manner.

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In some cases, I think she was gaining some independence from my father, cutting her own

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path.

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She had always followed somebody else.

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She got older and got more confident.

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The kids grew up.

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She decided, hey, I'm going to step out and do something that I want to do.

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So she did it.

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Going back to your earlier life then, when you were in the school age, you ended up being

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in a very, very physically demanding profession.

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What were you playing and doing as far as sports and exercise back then?

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I played football.

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Actually, here we call it soccer in the States, but awards mean things.

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So I was a soccer player.

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I also ran track, did a little bit of wrestling.

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My 5'8", 150, 160 pounds, as large as that sound, was not a competitive size on the football

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field, though I love football.

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Then eventually went on to play rugby.

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That was ultimately my favorite sport.

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I always find it interesting when people have done team sports and then individual sports

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because on one side with the team, there's an element where you can get away with having

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a bad day, sandbagging a little bit.

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But obviously there's that team element where you're going to rise up and make sure that

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you are a solid link of that chain.

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Then the individual side, whether it's a competitor as far as wrestling or literally the competitor

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is in your mind when you're doing track and you're running and your competitor is a person

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that's telling you to stop running.

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That's another kind of mental skillset that you bring to the table.

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When you reflect now, how did some of those sports factor into your success in BUDS and

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beyond?

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Yeah, I think it's really that team dynamic, being accountable to your teammates, being

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able to work as hard as they do or get on the practice field, make sure that things

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are coming together for game time.

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I think it's also a great opportunity to develop interpersonal relationships.

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Everybody comes from a different place.

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We're not all carbon copies of each other.

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We have different physical bills.

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We have different genetic structures.

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We think differently, race differently.

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But when you come together as a team, it's how do you integrate that?

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How do you blend that together so that you're effective on the field?

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I think a lot of that really comes down to respect for each other, the ability to communicate,

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which is all hinged upon the ability to listen.

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What about the individual sports?

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How do they factor?

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I think the individual sports kind of test your personal limits.

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There's no passing the buck.

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Who else do you have to blame but yourself when something doesn't go right?

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I think that brings a whole different dynamic.

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It's one thing when you lose within a team dynamic.

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That is something that you've got to resolve together with your teammates.

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Very often that is what we do after some of our fire calls that go a little rough.

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We do that post-mortem rock drill, so to speak, who is doing what when.

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You find out during that exercise that some of the things you thought were happening were

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not or other things were taking place that filled in the gaps.

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That's why I think we do it, because it's a healthy debriefing, offloading session to

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get the big picture.

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When you're by yourself, when you're on the field as a single athlete or performer, it's

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you.

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I think that takes a different approach.

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You've got to be able to look at that person in the mirror and peel back and have that

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honest conversation.

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I got nobody else to point at on why things didn't go right.

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Why didn't they go right, dude?

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Tell me and be honest.

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I think that that part and parcel folds into what makes people and how they deal with situations

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in life and how they deal with others, certainly in stressful situations.

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Absolutely.

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Well, you mentioned about working with the ambulance squad.

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When you were in the high school age, what were you dreaming of becoming?

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Was it in the EMS side or was there something else in mind?

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I think like most kids, I wasn't sure.

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I was kind of groping for that handhold as far as what I wanted to do.

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I will tell you this, I got into the high school age.

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I was kind of an average student.

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I really wasn't kind of, in many cases, academics wasn't a priority to me until I got to my

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senior year where finally the light went on and I put a lot of effort into it and did

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very well.

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But unfortunately, I lost a number of years before that to kind of set a track record

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of my ability.

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But even with that said, I felt that I wasn't ready for college.

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At the time, Vietnam was still underway.

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It was starting to wind down, but the draft was in play.

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I had a low draft number and I had always been told from an early age that you need

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to control your destiny.

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You need to grab onto the wheel and steer your way forward because if you depend on

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somebody else to do it for you, you're going to be disappointed.

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So I went ahead and enlisted in the Navy and because of my background as a volunteer on

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the ambulance squad, I gravitated towards medical training and became a Navy corpsman and initially

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started with the Marines out on the West Coast at Camp Pendleton, which was a great experience

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for me, which ultimately led me towards BUDS.

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You joined the military in a very interesting era because I've had a lot of conversations

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with people that were in the last 20 years and it mirrors police and fire.

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You used to have the kind of multi-generational element when it came to wearing a uniform,

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whether it was in the military, whether it was in the first responders, you had this

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kind of generational element.

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But as we've seen the real cost of serving as a police officer or firefighter, there's

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a massive decline in recruitment.

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There's other elements too, but really people are realizing, okay, this is what it actually

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looks like.

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And so rather than children looking wide-eyed saying, I want to be like that or mom, they're

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losing that a lot now.

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I would imagine that what we're seeing now mirrors post-Vietnam.

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So what was the kind of feeling about joining the military as Vietnam was winding down in

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the US?

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I think society's reflection on the military or on law enforcement has a lot to do with

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how people look at the profession.

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And fortunately, we still have people that can look past that despite a lot of a negative

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media attention, especially now on law enforcement.

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In the past, there was negative attention on the military.

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When I came out of active duty and started college, it was not the university I attended.

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It was not a positive attribute to be a military veteran.

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As a matter of fact, you almost became a target and a target by people who, as you looked

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at them, you wouldn't even be able to protest.

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You wouldn't even be able to say what you're saying if it wasn't for people like me and

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others who stepped forward to try to protect this nation and its ability to preserve an

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environment where you can have your free speech.

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But somehow that gets lost in the translation and you become the focus of their hate, their

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discontent.

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And I go back to being able to develop the skill of listening.

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I think that is something that is tough for our society to do on both sides of any discussion.

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I think it underpins what we're seeing right now with law enforcement is that people on

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both sides of this discussion have not been listening to each other.

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And when that happens, you start to move away from each other and the gaps build.

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So you have the media side, but what I'm also hearing a lot is it's the children of soldiers

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and first responders who their parents were never there or their parents came back different

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than when they went away.

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And so that's an interesting perspective because we're obviously going to talk about areas

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that need to be improved when it comes to the wellbeing of our military and our first

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responders.

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So if we don't change, for example, the profession that I know and understand the insane work

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week at the fire service, young people are going, well, that was never home.

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Even when he was supposed to be home, he was told he couldn't come home.

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He had to do yet another shift, yet another shift.

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So we are really at a kind of paradigm shift potential, like a critical mass, if you like,

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where if we don't fix this, we are going to see less and less and less recruitment and

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it is going to be dangerous for us.

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But if we actually have the humility to address the things that are hurting our people and

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give them the support rather than defunding or whatever the term is, then we can absolutely

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turn a corner if we address it.

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But if we don't, then I think it could be very deadly for the national security outside

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the nation and obviously the ability to deliver a service of EMS or law enforcement within

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the nation itself.

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James, I couldn't agree with you more.

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And I think that the negative cast from Vietnam and the 70s, the 80s did impact our ability

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to recruit, did impact the funding of our military.

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And subsequently, we paid a price for that.

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And I do think that, as you point out, during the past 20 plus years of persistent conflict,

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where mothers and fathers have been deployed in military uniform and their children have

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been raised by grandparents or others or by one parent versus the other, especially if

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both of them were in uniform, which there were a lot of families where both the husband

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and wife were in uniform and deploying on separate rotations, which adds a significant

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strain.

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But during those formative years for those kids, all they're seeing is that revolving

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door that doesn't stop.

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One parent coming in, going out, staying for a bit, leaving, missing birthday parties,

253
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sports events, other things that are key to a kid's development.

254
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And I think you see that some kids deal with it better than others.

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And certainly, as they get to more of a formative age, in adolescent and into their teens, it

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either manifests itself as increased individual strength and resiliency or it turns the other

257
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way.

258
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It almost creates a serious divide between the parents and the kids, almost an animosity,

259
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which is a shame on the police fire side of this right now.

260
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And I'm glad you brought this up because I see this every day.

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I think the threshold event was COVID.

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And then for the EMS medical community, where we had a very tough environment, where we

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had a mandatory obligation and responsibility to take care of those in our society who were

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being taken down by this disease.

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And it took a toll.

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People left the profession because they were in fear of catching this disease.

267
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Every one of us knew somebody that we lost to this disease.

268
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So it became very personal quickly.

269
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And a lot of misinformation out there, misinformation that in some cases fed into this.

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00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,880
And that happens when you don't have the science at a point where you can fully understand

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what's going on.

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So the gaps are filled by opinion and innuendo.

273
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But we see it right now with a national shortage of paramedics that's taking place.

274
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Paramedics are burned out.

275
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And to train up a paramedic, let alone an emergency medical technician, takes time.

276
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But we're bearing the brunt of that right now.

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And these departments need to be able to staff their equipment.

278
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And so even though you're finishing up your shift at 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning, after

279
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being pounded for 24 hours, you got your battalion chief or your captain coming up to you saying,

280
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not so quick.

281
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We got a gap and we're holding you over.

282
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And those holdovers, as Murphy's law would dictate, come at the worst time.

283
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It's the day of your kid's birthday.

284
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It's the trip that you planned to the zoo.

285
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It was you're leaving on your vacation.

286
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And I think we all experience it.

287
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:30,120
But I think it's at a point now that it's been somewhat unprecedented.

288
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And then when you transport, for instance, this past Monday, and some of your folks may

289
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,440
not have figured it out yet, but I still work as a firefighter paramedic in my retirement

290
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:48,680
years just because I needed something to do and I can't stay still for more than five

291
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,680
minutes.

292
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So in my position as a firefighter paramedic with the city of Annapolis here in Maryland,

293
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,760
we all experience what we call medical Mondays.

294
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And this past medical Monday was just probably one of the worst that I've seen.

295
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It was hot.

296
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We were overburdened with more calls than we had units.

297
00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:28,180
We get to the hospital, the waiting room, the walk-in waiting room is overflow with

298
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people sitting on the curb outside.

299
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You've got medic units lined up at one point 12 deep trying to get into triage to offload

300
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,760
their patients and transfer care.

301
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,400
And then you talk to hospital staff and they're just at their wits end.

302
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,640
They're having a shortage of nurses or they don't have enough beds available.

303
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,400
They can't move people out of the emergency department fast enough.

304
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,440
And the emergency departments have become the easy button for any medical issue.

305
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:08,060
Our healthcare, the balance of our healthcare has changed where the primary care site now

306
00:24:08,060 --> 00:24:16,280
is the emergency department as opposed to people having a personal physician or a primary

307
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,320
doctor's office that they go to.

308
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,520
So we're seeing this all the way around.

309
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:26,040
But to get to your original point, it cascades back down to the families.

310
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When you're not coming home or you're coming home beat, your wife's asking you, how'd

311
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,160
your day go?

312
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,440
And all you can do is growl because you're in that decompression mode.

313
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All you want to do is just create distance from the job.

314
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,800
The kids are jumping up and down on you.

315
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,800
They haven't seen you.

316
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:46,800
They want to do stuff.

317
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:56,800
And all you want to do is just chill and watch some mind numbing thing on TV to just get

318
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,960
away from it.

319
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,960
And so it's tough.

320
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:05,720
It's tough both for our military families and our first responder families to include

321
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,760
our frontline healthcare workers.

322
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:16,880
As we not only come out of the 20 plus years of conflict, by the way, we're still in conflict

323
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,560
around the globe.

324
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,480
Even though the wars technically have ended, we are still actively in conflict around the

325
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,720
globe.

326
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:31,760
And then on this, certainly this COVID, post-COVID period where we're still under the strain.

327
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:39,440
And I don't see a clear light at the end of the tunnel on when we're coming out of this.

328
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,480
One of the things that was so maddening about the way the pandemic was handled, because

329
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,080
I stood squarely in the middle, which I'd seem to do in most things, because that's

330
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:54,940
where the normal people are, is that it was absolutely a real virus and that it was also

331
00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:59,200
most dangerous to people that already had underlying health issues.

332
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,040
And so the answer was as we start navigating and if we're able to find a vaccine that truly

333
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:12,320
is effective and safe or whatever the other plan is, in the meantime, let's make the nation

334
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,320
healthier.

335
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800
We have a nation of 70% obese or overweight.

336
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,560
We have an opioid crisis, we have all these things that we can make a huge dent in.

337
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:26,200
But even though it was being touted as it's for the health of the people, there were no

338
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,300
PE programs posted.

339
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:32,040
There were no real foods put back into schools and soda machines removed.

340
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:38,560
There was no bolstering of local farmers to create organic food and they leave that bottleneck.

341
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,180
Instead, they closed the parks and the beaches.

342
00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:44,840
They had fast food and alcohol delivered to the homes and they were told to just stay

343
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,960
there, shut up, we'll let you know when you can come out.

344
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,800
And so we emerge worse than we went in.

345
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,220
And I think that is the real tragedy of this whole thing, aside from obviously the Americans

346
00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:58,080
that we lost to this virus.

347
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:03,840
With you now being an active duty firefighter paramedic still in great shape after the career

348
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,800
that we're going to get to, what are your reflections?

349
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,020
If you were king for a day, what would you change so that we could actually move the

350
00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:13,360
needle towards health again?

351
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:17,200
Yeah, I think that is really a great question.

352
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,560
And we're going to be a lot smarter about this 10 years down the road when we can look

353
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,400
back and understand what really happened.

354
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Once we kind of filter all the politics out of it, you got a lot of politicians, they

355
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:39,920
got the answers to every question, right or wrong, but they got an answer.

356
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:49,240
I think that as soon as that epidemic hit, I went back and read the book, I think it's

357
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,720
The Great Influenza.

358
00:27:50,720 --> 00:28:00,960
It was about the virus that hit back right at the height of the World War I.

359
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,480
And actually it was, I believe the military that was one of the key vectors for the spread

360
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,000
of that virus in Philadelphia was the center of gravity.

361
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:19,360
Once the virus that originated, I believe out in Kansas, made its way to a major military

362
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:25,960
depot where those that were infected then infected larger numbers that then spread out

363
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,920
to, you know, tentacled out.

364
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,680
There were great lessons that they learned back then, such as washing hands, masking

365
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,200
up, creating distance, educating.

366
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:48,800
But you know, like in a similar context, they were fighting, you know, their own media who

367
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,120
was mischaracterizing, you know, what was happening.

368
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,440
They were fighting politicians who were ignoring the fact that they had a national epidemic,

369
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,000
international epidemic, disease epidemic going on.

370
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:09,640
I think, you know, in the book, it referenced that the president at the time only mentioned

371
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:16,400
it one time during a speech throughout the whole epidemic crisis.

372
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,100
So then you fast forward to what we just, you know, experienced.

373
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:30,560
And I think that really, you know, what I've come away from these two events, or at least,

374
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,320
you know, reading about the first one and experiencing the second one is, you know,

375
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,240
we have to let the science, you know, we have to give science a chance to tell us what's

376
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,880
going on.

377
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,000
And I understand that when you're in the heat of battle and you have people that are, you

378
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:57,080
know, becoming seriously ill and dying at a rate that is, you know, beyond our tolerance,

379
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,800
then you've got to start doing things.

380
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,600
And they're not always, you know, black or white as far as with clear definition.

381
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,720
You know, we sit in that gray zone and we have to make at times our best guess on what

382
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,560
to do, you know, what's best for the public in order to preserve life.

383
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,040
And I think that's kind of what we were in.

384
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,440
And that's why I say, you know, we'll be a lot smarter down the road once we've had a

385
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:26,640
chance to analyze all the data and, you know, be and benefit from the research that has

386
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,400
come from exploring this disease.

387
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:37,440
But you know, as far as how we handled it, I just, you know, I think that, you know,

388
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:45,280
the propagation of information about the disease, about what to do about it, the open debate

389
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,920
that occurred within our society that created a lot of confusion.

390
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:59,280
But I think ultimately it was the politicization of this event that was probably the biggest

391
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,840
negative.

392
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:09,400
It really kind of pulled us away from the center of the road and I think incorrectly

393
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,360
shaped some perspectives all the way around.

394
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,720
And that's not a statement that goes, you know, to the left or to the right.

395
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,800
I'm talking about we lost our minds.

396
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:29,200
We lost our common sense approach to dealing with this and it became very political.

397
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,440
Absolutely, that was the problem.

398
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,640
I mean, you know, the end of it, people just thought, we don't want to talk about it anymore.

399
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,680
It's like, well, we need to, you know, history is doomed to repeat itself.

400
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,840
It's the same as tearing down statues.

401
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,800
And we talked about this in previous conversations in Bristol near where I grew up.

402
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,400
They tore down the statue that had been in the city for forever because he was a slave

403
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,600
trader.

404
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,960
And I always said, well, don't take the statue down, just change the plaque saying this guy

405
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,480
did some good, but basically this is what a shit bag he actually was.

406
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:58,480
I'll just leave it there.

407
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,240
You know, so now we can be reminded, like, you know, are we going to just remove the

408
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,480
whole Holocaust because we don't want to talk about it anymore?

409
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,280
No, it needs to be there front and center to remind us of the tyranny that can occur

410
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,240
if we, you know, just don't do anything.

411
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,280
And it's the same with the pandemic.

412
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:19,560
Some horrific decisions were made that we need to learn from and make sure they never

413
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:20,560
happen again.

414
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,380
And I think the biggest truth that came away was the healthier the population, the less

415
00:32:25,380 --> 00:32:29,000
deaths we'll have no matter what the next virus is called.

416
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,760
You know, but if we are just doing nothing and allowing kids to get fatter and sicker,

417
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,100
the next thing that comes around is going to kill even more people and shame on us for

418
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:38,600
not changing it.

419
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:45,360
Yeah, you know, definitely, you know, the health as a baseline, you know, the healthier

420
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,760
somebody was, you know, if they didn't have the comorbidities of diabetes, respiratory

421
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:56,880
disease, obesity, other hypertension, they did much better.

422
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,560
But if they fell into one of those or a number, usually it's a number of those categories,

423
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,440
then they had a tougher uphill battle.

424
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:11,240
And very often, I think what people don't realize is that their body, even before they

425
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,780
got hit with that disease, is struggling, is under load.

426
00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:23,360
And then that disease comes in and just, you know, punches them square in the face.

427
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:29,440
And there's a very brittle period there, whether, you know, they're able to transition, you

428
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,160
know, that difficult time or not.

429
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,800
And once they get into a spiral, it's hard to pull them out.

430
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,200
And that's what I think we saw with the disease.

431
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:46,680
We also saw that there were segments of our population that had greater vulnerabilities

432
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:53,720
with regards to, you know, our homeless, with disadvantaged neighborhoods and so forth,

433
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,640
you know, in the efforts to, you know, try to get health care to them, to try to educate

434
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:06,140
them, you know, just in the basics of, you know, protecting oneself, you know, informing

435
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:08,840
them on what you can do within your space.

436
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,920
I mean, we're not going to cure society's problem, but within my five, 10-foot radius,

437
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,360
you know, what can I do to minimize, you know, my exposure?

438
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:29,600
But I do think, you know, your point is very valid that is just not related to this pandemic,

439
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:35,920
is if we don't start embracing a healthier lifestyle, we are just going to dig ourselves

440
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,440
into a deeper, deeper hole.

441
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:44,360
I mean, I can tell you from my own personal experience, which I'm sure you can validate,

442
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:51,720
the amount of patients that we're encountering now that are literally train wrecks because

443
00:34:51,720 --> 00:35:03,720
of the way they eat, you know, lack of exercise, the lack of, you know, medical, you know,

444
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:14,720
surveillance or monitoring, just, you know, kind of gravitating more to a couch potato,

445
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:20,120
as opposed to one that's, you know, active, outdoor focused.

446
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:29,900
I think all this is just feeding into, you know, creating a society that is becoming

447
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:37,240
weaker and more vulnerable to these diseases, and as you said, these diseases cycle.

448
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:43,160
You know, we've been able to kind of, you know, take down this current pandemic, but

449
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:49,200
let me remind you, 100 years ago, we were dealing with the same thing, and to your point,

450
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:55,680
we forgot those lessons learned, and we wound up repeating them again this time around,

451
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,920
and we're at risk for repeating them again the next time around, because there will be

452
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:06,880
one, because we failed to remember, we failed to, you know, incorporate these lessons learned,

453
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,720
and therefore, we pay the price again.

454
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:10,720
Absolutely.

455
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:17,240
Well, going back to your kind of military track, staying on the medicine theme, so you

456
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:23,600
said you entered the Navy as a corpsman, walk me through what made you decide to enter the

457
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:30,120
SEAL program, and then what was it about you mentally and physically that allowed you to

458
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,640
succeed through BUDs when so many rang the bell?

459
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,840
Well, you know, medicine has always been kind of an interest.

460
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:45,080
Again, I explained the, you know, the motivation from my sister's accident, and then certainly,

461
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,680
you know, got bitten by the bug as a volunteer on an ambulance.

462
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,960
You know, it's a good feeling when you can help somebody out, and certainly with your

463
00:36:53,960 --> 00:37:02,240
knowledge to either stop them from getting worse or, you know, even better, helping them

464
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,800
improve their situation.

465
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:15,960
But you know, going through that training, I think it gives you a, you know, it maintains

466
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:28,680
your contact with, you know, empathy, compassion for others, and that, you know, not everybody

467
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,960
is going to wake up and it's going to be a good day.

468
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,760
And so, you know, and the unpredictability of that, I think, is part of the challenge.

469
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,680
I thrived in that environment.

470
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,120
I loved the gray zone.

471
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:49,640
For me, you know, if things are too structured, too black and white, you know, too disciplined,

472
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:50,640
it drives me nuts.

473
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:51,640
I got it.

474
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:52,640
You got to have process.

475
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:53,960
You got to have some hierarchy.

476
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,200
You got, you know, but I really like being thrown into stuff where I've got to figure

477
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:07,720
it out on the fly and have the, hopefully, the license to be able to develop solutions.

478
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:13,320
I get very frustrated when, you know, somebody is telling me how to get to the top of the

479
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:20,320
mountain their way instead of just telling me to get to the top of the mountain.

480
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,240
What time do you want me there?

481
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,140
And what do you want me to do when I get there?

482
00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:27,520
Let me figure it out.

483
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,720
That's what I thrive on.

484
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:36,020
And that's how I have personally led others is I'm very clear about what my expectations

485
00:38:36,020 --> 00:38:42,560
are as far as, you know, our mission goals, but pretty much toss it to them to figure

486
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:43,560
it out.

487
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,080
And I'm there to help guide if needed.

488
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:51,140
But I recognize there's more than one way to the top of that mountain.

489
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:53,080
And I'm not the smartest person in the world.

490
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,440
But you know, when you surround yourself with teammates who are, you know, motivated to

491
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,340
do the right thing, it's amazing what they can do.

492
00:39:01,340 --> 00:39:06,920
So my motivation to get into the teams was really kind of in line with that.

493
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:14,880
I had a friend that, you know, back in the day, you know, nobody really had an idea of

494
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,840
what the SEAL teams were all about.

495
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,380
And I had a buddy that was, you know, in the teams.

496
00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:28,280
And we got together one weekend, he was telling me about what he had gone through and what

497
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,800
he was doing.

498
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,360
And it was like crack cocaine.

499
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,440
I mean, I mean, I wanted more.

500
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,200
I wanted to find out about this.

501
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:44,800
And so I volunteered with a little, you know, bureaucratic difficulty because the Navy at

502
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,040
the time was not a big supporter of the special ops community.

503
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:55,320
It's special ops community, especially post Vietnam era.

504
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:03,800
But I made my way toward tornado and, you know, just embraced whatever they threw at

505
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:04,800
me.

506
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:11,920
I went in there, I think, with a mindset that, hey, I think I know what I'm doing, but I

507
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,360
really don't.

508
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,600
But yet they can't kill me.

509
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,280
At least that was my thinking.

510
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,640
You know, that's not going to be a good thing.

511
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:33,640
So if I can just, you know, and the best advice I got was, hey, it's hour by hour, you know,

512
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,720
day by day.

513
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,060
Don't look beyond that.

514
00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:42,880
If you're looking way out to, you know, the far ridge line as you're going through that

515
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,920
training, you're going to wind up, you know, chewing yourself up.

516
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,080
So I kind of approached it that way.

517
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:59,640
It's hour by hour, day by day, you know, working with my teammates.

518
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,400
You know, not every day was a great day.

519
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:10,700
But you know, once we got into the rack at night, if we had had that opportunity, then

520
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:17,120
that was another day behind us and one less in front of us.

521
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,960
And there's great bonds that you build when you go through an experience like that.

522
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,200
It was foundational for me for the rest of my life.

523
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:32,480
It gives you a sense of confidence and that you can do things beyond your expectations.

524
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:39,780
It also gives you a sense of limitations, which is powerful, too.

525
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:43,760
You know, we're all kind of wired differently, built differently.

526
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,920
And some of us can do some things better than others.

527
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:53,580
But you know, this is where the power of that team comes in when you respect each other's

528
00:41:53,580 --> 00:42:01,480
abilities and you recognize those that have expertise or capabilities in some areas a

529
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,040
little bit more than others.

530
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:08,000
But yet you're coming together as that homogeneous team element.

531
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,360
And you know, you're you're parking your you know, let's fake it.

532
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,520
I mean, for me to say the seal doesn't have an ego would be, you know, my nose would be

533
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,200
growing, you know, growing, you know, right before your eyes right now.

534
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,320
I mean, we all have egos, but you got to know when to park it in order to get the mission

535
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,040
accomplished.

536
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,920
Same with fire in police.

537
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:36,240
You know, many of the the incidents that as they look back where people got into troubles

538
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:42,760
because they allowed their ego to get out in front of the common sense and you know,

539
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:49,160
that's kind of how you know, that experience with the teams was it was very formative.

540
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,760
Wouldn't trade a minute of it.

541
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,920
Well, maybe a few minutes of it away.

542
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:01,400
There's some very painful points that, you know, I think we all go through.

543
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:07,720
But but in the end, it just makes you a better, stronger person.

544
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:13,440
And I think that, you know, it certainly set me up for the rest of my life and how I approached

545
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,240
different challenges.

546
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:21,240
A question I always ask anyone who's been deployed, and especially with with your community,

547
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:25,960
you know, there's a lot of specifics that none of our business, to be completely honest.

548
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:32,780
But when it comes to being a civilian, the war is really painted in a very polarizing

549
00:43:32,780 --> 00:43:37,440
way by the news channels, either kill them all, like God sort them out, stack bodies

550
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,480
or they're all baby killers, you know, and rarely do you hear the kind of men and women

551
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,680
on the grounds perspective.

552
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,120
So it's a two part question.

553
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:51,040
The first part, regardless of the politics that sent you there, was there a point in

554
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,720
the teams where you realize that there was some horrific human beings that needed to

555
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:56,800
be taken care of?

556
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:04,440
Yes, there's just some people that are not going to be receptive to hugs and kisses and,

557
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,640
you know, a kinder, gentler approach.

558
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,120
You just have to take them out.

559
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:18,400
You have to take them off the battlefield because they will continue to come at us and

560
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:36,000
come at us with a passion that that completely disregards all the fundamental, you know,

561
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,800
moral code that we've been raised by.

562
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:46,580
And that's hard for people to understand because they want to apply, you know, the conditions

563
00:44:46,580 --> 00:44:55,440
of Main Street USA or Main Street London to a battlefield and to some of these horrible,

564
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:04,720
you know, points of conflict where the value of human life is so upside down from how we

565
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,880
have been raised in a civilized society.

566
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,640
And that's what I think our public fails to understand.

567
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:26,560
That translation does not, you know, cultivate a sense of understanding.

568
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:34,120
And therefore, I think what it does is breeds disconnect between a lot of our active duty

569
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:41,240
veterans, you know, police fire, because the general public who we serve in many cases,

570
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,320
they don't understand.

571
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,960
And as I've always thought about this, and I don't know what your thinking is, you know,

572
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,240
I would almost look at that as a negative.

573
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:56,720
Hey, you don't understand what I'm trying to do for you or you don't understand my job

574
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:58,060
and so forth.

575
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:02,160
And then I've gotten to this point as I've gotten a little older, I said, you know, maybe

576
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:08,480
you shouldn't understand because it would mean that you'd have to acknowledge that there's

577
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:18,720
some, you know, sides of humanity that are not, you know, very pleasant.

578
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:23,640
And maybe it's better that you just don't know about that and let those of us that can

579
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,460
deal with it deal with it.

580
00:46:25,460 --> 00:46:31,000
But in that regard, then have the confidence in the fact that we can deal with it and support

581
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,280
us.

582
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:40,440
If you could extrapolate common denominators, knowing that most, you know, communities around

583
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:47,040
the world had, you know, periods of peace, periods of community and tribalism.

584
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,000
What is it about these individuals that become tyrants?

585
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,580
You know, are there any kind of common denominators that you notice to the creation of tyranny?

586
00:46:55,580 --> 00:47:00,040
Because it seems like over and over again, whether it's the slave issue that we had here,

587
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:07,040
whether it's, you know, again, the Holocaust, it's usually a few horrendous people that

588
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,040
then poison an entire nation.

589
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,600
I'm not saying that the entire nation of Germany was behind what happened, but they were, you

590
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,680
know, that the opinions of the few were projected to a point where they were actually dragged

591
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:19,680
into it.

592
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:26,240
So of these horrendous people that you witness, could you see any common denominators of how

593
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:32,040
they got there from, again, a giggling toddler to someone who's massacring people?

594
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:42,960
Yeah, I think probably one of the key factors is if there's no opportunity for them to achieve

595
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,640
a better life.

596
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,240
So in other words, if they can't get a job, if they can't, in many cultures, you can't

597
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,480
marry unless you can prove that you can support a family.

598
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,600
And those families are not your immediate nuclear family, but it's also your extended

599
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,320
family.

600
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,080
So if you have, and this is what I think we certainly saw in Iraq when we completely leg

601
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:12,880
sweep their whole society and threw everybody into a state of unemployment is, you know,

602
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:18,760
one minute you had a shopkeeper who was, you know, trying to make ends meet, you know,

603
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:26,640
had a family, you know, trying to keep a roof over the head of that family, create a secure

604
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:27,640
environment.

605
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:34,000
Next thing you know, you can't afford to buy food for that family because their society

606
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,840
was completely upended.

607
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,960
So now they're digging holes in the ground and dropping explosives in there to blow us

608
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,000
up because somebody's paying them 75 bucks to do that.

609
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,680
You know, they have no opinion about us one way or the other, but, you know, the higher

610
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,720
priority is I've got to feed my family.

611
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:57,240
So I think in those societies or in those environments around the world where you see

612
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:02,640
the level of disadvantage where, especially with the youth population, where they don't

613
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:08,380
see a way forward, you know, there's no jobs, there's no education.

614
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:19,000
They become very vulnerable to those extremist influences that give them a hope for something

615
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:26,200
in the future, even though by our standards, our definition, that hope is evil.

616
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,320
To them, it's something better than what they have.

617
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,800
And so I think that, you know, I saw that happen in Yemen and in a number of other areas

618
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,600
in Africa, many, you know, Afghanistan's kind of an interesting place.

619
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:50,000
You know, it's very tribal as, you know, every valley is different.

620
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,840
You know, there was really no central government that really had influence over the whole country.

621
00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:01,440
It was more of a shadow governor influence, you know, personalities within certain regions

622
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:06,360
that really dictated the behavior of that region.

623
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:16,000
I think the other thing too is when, you know, you see some of these extremist factions start

624
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:23,640
to gain momentum, it's one thing to be able to operate within their immediate area of

625
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:33,200
influence, but at some point, you know, just like a festering, you know, boil or lesion,

626
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:34,720
it's going to burst.

627
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:36,680
It's going to need to spread out.

628
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,500
The pressure from within that local region is going to become so great that it's going

629
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:44,320
to wind up technically to other places.

630
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,200
And that's when you start seeing, you know, some of the effects that we've seen here in

631
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,340
the past 20 years.

632
00:50:51,340 --> 00:50:52,340
How do you cure it?

633
00:50:52,340 --> 00:50:53,640
You know, great question.

634
00:50:53,640 --> 00:51:01,560
I mean, some of this is, you know, certainly fueled by religious fundamentalism.

635
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:11,360
It's fueled by individuals who, you know, are motivated by power and the ability to control,

636
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,160
you know, and sometimes leveraging religion as a way to do that.

637
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:23,320
And then you have, you know, other, you know, I think legitimate, you know, oppression that,

638
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:31,320
you know, the prevailing government or ruling body is, you know, so brutal that, you know,

639
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:37,240
that population just rises up, you know, it just gets to a point where it's had enough.

640
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:44,160
And then it turns into, you know, violence as an answer to, you know, dealing with that

641
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:45,160
problem.

642
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,000
And that comes with second, third order effects.

643
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,000
Yeah.

644
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,520
I mean, such a powerful perspective, you know, from the lens that you have.

645
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,480
And it's interesting because it really parallels what we see here in the U.S. too.

646
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,440
I mean, our desperate neighborhoods, regardless of race, are the ones where you see the most

647
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,600
crime, the most addiction, the most gang membership, et cetera, because, you know, mentorship,

648
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,880
I talk about this a lot, mentorship programs in the first responder professions are the

649
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,880
answer to diversity in uniform.

650
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,880
But if you have an underserved population that's not being reached out to by police

651
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:23,260
and fire, then their only option might be sports or joining a gang, you know.

652
00:52:23,260 --> 00:52:27,080
But now all of a sudden, the policeman or a firefighter comes along and says, hey, we've

653
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,080
got this free program.

654
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,240
Well, we'll give you the equipment and we'll train you.

655
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:34,360
And there's a fire academy with scholarships and then employment on the other side.

656
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,180
Some of those kids are going to go, oh, thank goodness, because I was about to join a gang,

657
00:52:38,180 --> 00:52:39,180
you know.

658
00:52:39,180 --> 00:52:44,640
So whether it's internationally or here at home, if you proactively invest in your people,

659
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,120
you reduce that desperation and therefore the level of crime and violence.

660
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,120
Yeah.

661
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:57,120
And again, I think that that is you have to be able to put yourself in their shoes.

662
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,920
You know, it's tough to do because you're not living in their environment.

663
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:06,280
But you know, I'll go into the projects now, you know, housing development.

664
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,920
And you know, it's interesting.

665
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:15,480
I can go into, you know, an apartment and, you know, I just shake my head and say, you

666
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,080
know, how can somebody live like this?

667
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,040
I mean, it's just horrible conditions.

668
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,200
I mean, you see it, your listeners see it.

669
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,520
And then, you know, you go back a couple of days later to a different apartment in the

670
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,720
same complex.

671
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:35,560
And it's and, you know, there's there's books on the table.

672
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:40,240
You know, the place is, you know, in complete order.

673
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,040
There's pictures on the walls.

674
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:47,440
There's, you know, there's a sense of family there.

675
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,360
So you know, you just can't.

676
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:54,880
I think that's the thing that I'm constantly reminded of in this business is that, you

677
00:53:54,880 --> 00:54:05,060
know, you you cannot, you know, fall into that trap of the whole communities like that.

678
00:54:05,060 --> 00:54:10,440
You know, there are people that are trying their their, you know, in their own way, within

679
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,880
their own means, they're trying to to improve.

680
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:22,520
It's it's, you know, and again, they're the folks you want to get to, you know, and I

681
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:23,520
agree with you.

682
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,060
You know, the time to get to them is when they're young, you know, before somebody else

683
00:54:27,060 --> 00:54:32,780
latches onto them, you know, before, you know, they see the example that drug dealer who's

684
00:54:32,780 --> 00:54:40,320
driving a fancy car, you know, wheeling around the neighborhood, poisoning the community,

685
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,560
you know, to be able to give them an alternative, you know, whether it's through sports, whether

686
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:51,320
it's through alignment with some type of, you know, mentorship program.

687
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,720
And again, I think, you know, that's where you have the and that's why the military becomes

688
00:54:55,720 --> 00:55:01,940
so attractive to a lot of these men and women who come from a disadvantaged neighborhood,

689
00:55:01,940 --> 00:55:06,560
because in many cases it offers opportunity and structure.

690
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,080
And and and this is just not my opinion.

691
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:17,000
I've talked to, you know, a number of my colleagues from the military that have come from those

692
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:23,320
conditions and have said that, you know, if it wasn't for, you know, enlisting in the

693
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:30,520
military and making the decision that I need to, you know, as I said earlier, you know,

694
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:38,880
at the discussion to grab the wheel and start steering my life, then, you know, I recognize

695
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,400
I wasn't going to go anywhere.

696
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,120
I was going to be trapped in this environment.

697
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:48,920
And so, you know, you know, and we do see this in our society, you know, and there are

698
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:54,200
communities and this is where this has to be addressed is at the community level.

699
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,400
This is not national policy.

700
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,600
National policy is going to not going to have an effect, you know, at the dirt level, at

701
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,380
the deck plate of our our communities.

702
00:56:03,380 --> 00:56:07,760
This is really something that has to be embraced by the community and all those elements that

703
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:14,080
support the community to be able to, you know, open up those opportunities.

704
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,520
But I think when you can, you can see some great results.

705
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,320
100 percent.

706
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,360
The question I asked before, like I said, is a two part question.

707
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:28,520
The other side that we also never hear about through the screens is the kindness and compassion

708
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,280
from our men and women in uniform when they are serving.

709
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:36,640
And I've heard so many stories from schools and hospitals being constructed to military

710
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,480
veterinary surgeons helping indigenous animals.

711
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,000
So many great stories.

712
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:47,720
When you reflect on your time in the SEAL team specifically, what are moments of kindness

713
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,680
and compassion that you remember?

714
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,320
Well, I think it's it's really goes to with the kids.

715
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:02,680
I mean, that's the first point of contact is is if you could bridge a relationship with

716
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,560
the kids, then very often the parents will follow.

717
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:13,320
Because I think every parent, you know, wants their kid to do better, have a better experience

718
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:15,560
or opportunity than they have.

719
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:23,800
You know, they they want to make sure that, you know, their kids, you know, succeed.

720
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:31,600
And I've seen that across all cultures, you know, that are, you know, again, I think it's

721
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:43,720
a fundamental need, you know, from a parent to to provide that that safe haven, that opportunity.

722
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:53,920
So to me, my my my first, you know, point of approach was with the kids and just, you

723
00:57:53,920 --> 00:58:00,760
know, getting down on their level, eye to eye contact, you know, showing them that,

724
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:06,560
you know, you're not someone, you know, that they should be scared of, that, you know,

725
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:12,320
they can talk to you, they can they can touch your equipment, they can, you know, they they

726
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:18,480
can, you know, experience, you know, some of the things that, you know, that that you

727
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,120
have.

728
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:27,000
And so I think that, you know, again, that's that's the outreach and and kindness, just

729
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:33,600
a simple, you know, nobody I go I go back to listening.

730
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,560
So when you have an encounter.

731
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:44,680
I see a lot of these these calls and these situations go bad is that when folks from

732
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:53,720
our our side of the equation come in and are instantly judgmental about what's going on,

733
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,920
don't take the time to listen and and, you know, kind of go in with eyes wide open.

734
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:05,520
Hey, one of the some of the best advice I ever got as a young provider was, hey, before

735
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:13,640
you go freaking rushing in there, just take a deep breath and count to 10 and look around.

736
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,520
It's going to save your life.

737
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:21,120
It's also going to help you be a better provider, because you're going to see something within

738
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,000
those 10 seconds.

739
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:27,520
That's going to inform you on how to approach that call.

740
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:33,560
But if you're rushing in there, you know, kicking the door open, you know, you know,

741
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:41,720
coming in to save the day with or without theme music, you know, you're going to miss

742
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:47,840
stuff and you're probably going to set yourself up for for a fall.

743
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:55,820
So I think listening, giving them the respect, no matter what conditions you're in, you know,

744
00:59:55,820 --> 01:00:02,160
if you if you take somebody's dignity away, you you instantly have a fight.

745
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,600
It's been my experience.

746
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:12,600
So it does it does not hurt to show a little respect, compassion, empathy and and and and

747
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,160
to preserve their dignity.

748
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,140
You know, treat them the way you would want to be treated.

749
01:00:18,140 --> 01:00:26,760
But I also encourage a lot of my my young officers I deal with and and and providers.

750
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,540
You got to ask the question in reverse.

751
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:32,600
How do you think they need to be they want to be treated?

752
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,800
You know, it's a two way street.

753
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:44,640
And if you can ask that question before you make your judgment, then things go a lot better.

754
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:49,600
When you're talking about that 10 second pause, I immediately think of the firefighters that

755
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:54,680
beat their chest talking about clean cabs, stop grabs.

756
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,680
And the fact that, for example, I experienced as a tillerman in California, my air pack

757
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,400
was on the outside.

758
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:05,480
The literally 10 seconds it takes to throw a pack on your back and click in.

759
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,040
You're surveying the scene, you're listening to your company officer and what they're going

760
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,320
to say you're doing a quick scan, you know, anyone hanging out windows is looking like

761
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,120
it's going to collapse.

762
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,840
And then, you know, you you listen to orders or if you're officer, you give orders.

763
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:22,720
But this idea that you're going to be all bunkered up in the back of a rig and just

764
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:27,760
leap off like Superman on crack and go flying into a burning building because you saved

765
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:34,680
10 seconds is insane versus trying to be a little bit more diligent so that you're not

766
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,960
the next firefighter that they bury because of cancer.

767
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:43,680
I think, you know, that that kind of cartoon esque, ridiculous, narcissistic version of

768
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:51,080
the hero is tactically so unsound and having the humility to take a beat and listen to,

769
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,920
you know, your your officer or make this decision yourself.

770
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:59,120
But in this example, take the pack from the outside, throw it on, click it on what he

771
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,200
doing it.

772
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:04,880
Now you've not only, you know, not exposed yourself to the off gassing from the previous

773
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:11,000
fire, but also you've given yourself a tactical pause to make a calm decision before you act.

774
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,920
Yeah, I agree.

775
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:19,120
It's so much can be learned in that 10 seconds so you can discipline yourself to kind of

776
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,080
take advantage of that.

777
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:27,440
I think, you know, we're our own worst critics, you know, whether we're, you know, in an active

778
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:35,240
knife fight or or after, you know, an after action review, you know, you know, why that

779
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,720
battalion chief tell me to do that or why that battalion chief, you know, you know,

780
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:44,760
stop me from, you know, doing my interior fire attack.

781
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:51,320
You know, part of it is, yeah, it's it's great to be able to, you know, drag that hose, you

782
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:57,520
know, through the front door and and knock down a raging fire.

783
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:06,540
But if everybody's already out of the house and, you know, we don't have anybody trapped

784
01:03:06,540 --> 01:03:13,520
and that house is, you know, without a doubt, cooking off, then that's where the the maturity

785
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:18,400
of leadership comes in and the responsibility, you know, on that captain or that battalion

786
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:23,560
chief that, you know, they want everybody to go home at the end of the day.

787
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:29,200
And sometimes, you know, we live in this profession where, you know, you got to prove yourself

788
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:38,000
by, you know, running into a boiling fire, you know, with a house that's completely cooking

789
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,840
off that we have a high degree of confidence that nobody's trapped.

790
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:48,080
And even then, it's a tough call sometimes, even if you have somebody trapped, because

791
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,840
sometimes those situations are unattainable.

792
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:59,680
You know, there's no way somebody, even if we get to them, are going to survive this.

793
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,000
And that's part of the reality.

794
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:10,760
So, you know, I think that, you know, if we're going to be around, you know, for a full career

795
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:18,080
and then, more importantly, to be able to have a quality of life in our after, you know,

796
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:25,120
after our career, we've got to pay attention to this, you know, and, you know, as we talked

797
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:29,960
a little bit earlier, you know, it's just not the hazards of fire attack, whether, you

798
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:35,400
know, you know, you know, it's an interior operation or you're in a defensive operation

799
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:41,720
on the outside, where obviously there's, you know, a lot of, you know, ongoing, you know,

800
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:43,680
dynamic hazards.

801
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:50,620
But I think very often, and we're getting better at it, but, you know, once that transitioned

802
01:04:50,620 --> 01:04:56,360
into, you know, rehab, everybody kind of dropped their guard, you know, they flipped off their

803
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:04,840
mask, you know, they went off air, you know, they loosened up their coat.

804
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:12,600
They, you know, weren't paying attention to what they were touching and not touching.

805
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:17,160
And then, you know, once they got back to the station, after they threw all their smoky

806
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:24,360
fire gear into the cab of the truck and pulled it out, you know, it was, you know, dragging

807
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:30,360
all that contaminant off gassing gear, you know, back into the station where, you know,

808
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,760
for days you smelled that fire, you know, the remnants of that fire.

809
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:43,520
And now, you know, we're learning that, you know, hey, all that off gassing, that smell

810
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:49,440
that we have is actually, you know, contaminating us and creating a health risk.

811
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,560
You know, there was a study that came out recently that, you know, for a long time,

812
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:58,040
everyone thought that, you know, a lot of the fire deaths were as a result of, you know,

813
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,640
carbon monoxide, you know, from the smoke exposure.

814
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:10,080
And now we're finding out it's predominantly cyanide because of the materials that are

815
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:16,160
burning in these fires, whether, you know, it's contained, you know, interior fire or

816
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:18,800
it's something that's on the outside.

817
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:29,280
You know, my kind of standard is if I could smell it, then it's getting into me.

818
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:36,840
So you know, we just had here in Annapolis a couple of days ago, a lithium battery fire.

819
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:42,240
And I don't know if you've had experience with that, but it was an eye opener.

820
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:49,200
And I know FDNY has really done some great research and reporting on this.

821
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:59,520
But you know, every one of the firefighters that engaged that attack commented on how

822
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:05,720
black and forceful that smoke was coming out of that lithium battery and how difficult

823
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,000
it was to put that fire out.

824
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:15,240
And that's, I think, going to be a growing trend, but it certainly highlights the hazardous

825
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,520
environment that we're confronting right now.

826
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:20,240
We need to understand it.

827
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,080
We need to get better at it.

828
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:27,240
It's much like what I'm dealing with on the blast over pressure issues with the military

829
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,200
right now off our weapons systems.

830
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:36,160
You know, we need to be better informed so we can make better decisions.

831
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:39,120
I just saw, I think it was the BBC, shared a story.

832
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,680
I think North Korea, it was a factory.

833
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,760
They had a lithium battery fire and 23 people were killed.

834
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,240
So I'm assuming it probably just lit off and that was it engulfed pretty much everyone

835
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:50,240
that was around.

836
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,640
You know, you think about a pallet or something else, you know, you catch fire.

837
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:58,200
Most people have got plenty of time to get out before that's going to turn into something

838
01:07:58,200 --> 01:07:59,200
bad.

839
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,320
I mean, even Christmas trees as fast as they burn.

840
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,840
So you know, this lithium issue, and I've had even people talking about, you know, terrorism,

841
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:11,280
you know, what if batteries like that are just parked under buildings and then deliberately

842
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:12,280
ignited?

843
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:16,240
You know, what a nightmare that's going to be for law enforcement and fire to suppress.

844
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,200
So it is, you know, a very, very important conversation.

845
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:23,280
I do want to get to, you know, the blast injuries and that side as well, though.

846
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:29,020
So what was it that made you transition out of the teams into law enforcement?

847
01:08:29,020 --> 01:08:33,000
And then let's kind of parallel that with Ryan's birth and you can start talking about

848
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,560
him as a young man.

849
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:40,080
Well, I think that, you know, the team's great experience.

850
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,720
Teammates are, you know, they're teammates.

851
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:50,080
You know, they become closer than your own, you know, family members.

852
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:54,360
And I think a lot of that is the bonding that happens, you know, from doing, you know, some

853
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:58,200
pretty spectacular things.

854
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:00,560
And you never want to let them down.

855
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:06,080
And whether it's in the SEAL teams or any other special operations environment to include

856
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:09,760
police and fire, you don't want to let your teammates down.

857
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:15,360
So you always want to be viewed as a value of being able to carry the load.

858
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:22,480
And that's a very important thing for folks to understand is that when, you know, there's

859
01:09:22,480 --> 01:09:27,000
a challenge to that balance is bad things can happen.

860
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:30,360
You know, you can see people drifting from the tribe.

861
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:36,960
You can see them get isolated, you know, lose confidence in themselves, you know, especially

862
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,280
if they're starting to question how their peers are viewing them.

863
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:48,480
And this is kind of a very unstable terrain that exists when we have somebody that needs

864
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:54,560
to get help or has been hurt as a result of their service is being able to have that conversation

865
01:09:54,560 --> 01:10:01,960
that, hey, you're injured, you're, you know, you know, we got to heal you up.

866
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,360
You know, we got to make you better.

867
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:11,800
My transition to the out of the teams basically was late 70s, early 80s.

868
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:16,840
You know, at that point, you know, we were in the post Vietnam era, you know, much like

869
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:23,200
what we're seeing now, where the emphasis on military investment and so forth is is

870
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:25,960
being questioned.

871
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:35,360
And and also, you know, some dynamics, you know, with regards to leadership and, you

872
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:46,440
know, what, you know, do we need to focus on and, you know, kind of staying true to

873
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:50,840
planning and preparing for the war that we're going to have to fight, not the war that we

874
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,080
want to fight on paper.

875
01:10:54,080 --> 01:11:00,840
So you know, I made the decision that I wanted to get out, get some more education.

876
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:07,200
As I said, you know, when I enlisted in the military, I felt I wasn't ready for college.

877
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:12,120
You know, I needed to, you know, grow up, you know, kind of taste the world a little

878
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,120
bit.

879
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:19,580
And, you know, now that I had the experience in the military, I was still, you know, intended

880
01:11:19,580 --> 01:11:21,360
to stay active reserves.

881
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:28,320
I wanted to go out and kind of expand my headspace as far as, you know, in the academic arena.

882
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:33,780
So I started at the university two days after I left active duty and wound up getting my

883
01:11:33,780 --> 01:11:38,760
undergraduate degree and then moved into law enforcement.

884
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,520
And that was not something that was planned.

885
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:47,640
I had intended to come back into the teams, you know, with or without a commission.

886
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,560
You know, that really wasn't my focus, but I just wanted to, you know, get away for a

887
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,800
while, get some schooling and then, you know, come back in.

888
01:11:55,800 --> 01:12:02,120
But then I got bitten by the law enforcement bug, wound up being a beat cop up in the Philadelphia

889
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:12,640
area for about a year, you know, walking the beat in a predominantly black area as a white,

890
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:17,720
you know, suburban bred, you know, kid.

891
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,440
Yeah, I got it.

892
01:12:19,440 --> 01:12:25,320
I was coming out of the teams, you know, but I'll tell you what, my experience in the teams

893
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:31,480
and BUDs and everything else did not prepare me for, you know, walking the beat in a neighborhood

894
01:12:31,480 --> 01:12:34,920
where I definitely was the outsider.

895
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:40,800
And for that year, probably one of the most valuable growth experiences next to the teams

896
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:49,400
was the ability to integrate with that into that neighborhood, you know, build, you know,

897
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:59,440
relationships, build trust that really, as we, you know, kind of alluded to earlier,

898
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:06,280
initially started coming about and dealing with the kids, you know, helping out, you

899
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,360
know, the young ones.

900
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:13,320
You know, I'd see, you know, a kid who, you know, there'd be a pack of, you know, five

901
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:21,160
or six kids and, you know, four of them would have bicycles in all different shapes, sizes,

902
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:22,160
conditions.

903
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,400
And then, you know, one or two of them wouldn't.

904
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,240
And you know, the kids on the bikes would go riding off.

905
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:31,120
The other two would be, you know, left there, you know, on the sidewalk, you know, kind

906
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:37,000
of with, you know, that expression on their face that, you know, you know, I don't have

907
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:41,800
to describe it, but, you know, just disappointment, you know, that being left out.

908
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:43,320
So you know, I'd help them get bikes.

909
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,360
I mean, we were always picking up abandoned bikes.

910
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:56,720
And so, you know, wound up giving them bikes, you know, and then, you know, occasionally,

911
01:13:56,720 --> 01:14:02,320
you know, buying them ice cream, you know, you know, which was a treat, you know, so

912
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:04,520
little things, you know.

913
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,320
And you know, and then the kids, you know, we started talking.

914
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,800
And the next thing you know, and it wasn't my intent, but, you know, they would start

915
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:15,360
telling me things about what was going on in the neighborhood.

916
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:20,200
And then I see, you know, you know, an elderly woman, you know, walking up the sidewalk,

917
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:25,520
you know, dragging some grocery bags, you know, just, you know, trying to put one foot

918
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:26,520
in front of the other.

919
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:30,480
And I, you know, I go up and I say, can I carry your bags for you?

920
01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:34,040
And, you know, you know, you can see the look on our face, like, really?

921
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:35,040
You want to carry my bags?

922
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,040
I said, yeah, let's let me carry your bags.

923
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:42,200
And then we just walk and, you know, it's just little things like that, you know, that,

924
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:53,280
you know, I really got an education and that, you know, really proved its importance when

925
01:14:53,280 --> 01:15:00,600
about nine, 10 months after I started, I wound up in a street fight, pretty violent street

926
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:02,040
fight.

927
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:09,720
And one of those fights where, you know, everything just starts to close in on it and things get

928
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:16,080
real narrow and you're just reaching deep for everything you got.

929
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:22,080
You know, I'm trying to hold onto my weapon that, you know, was actively trying to be

930
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:23,600
removed from my holster.

931
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:31,520
I barely got, you know, a call out on the radio, didn't even know if it was received.

932
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,720
And then things went black.

933
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:39,480
And the next thing I know, you know, I was being helped off the ground and, you know,

934
01:15:39,480 --> 01:15:46,200
kind of regaining my senses, sirens, you know, blaring, you know, all around me.

935
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,040
And here are three people from the neighborhood helping me up.

936
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:59,040
And, you know, the street gang that I confronted were basically, you know, all for the leader.

937
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:04,640
They were laying either unconscious or severely injured on the sidewalk.

938
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:12,520
And I'll never forget this one rather large lady from the neighborhood, it was grabbed

939
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:17,600
a hold of, had grabbed a hold of this, you know, gang leader and was slamming him against

940
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:23,240
the brick wall of a house, you know, telling him, you don't, he's our cop.

941
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:24,660
You don't ever touch him.

942
01:16:24,660 --> 01:16:27,080
You know, you're not welcome here, you know.

943
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:31,560
And it just kept, you know, beating this guy until they pulled her off of him.

944
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:42,120
But it was to me, that was a threshold moment when I knew that I was part of that neighborhood.

945
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:46,240
And then, you know, it was a sad day when I had to leave, you know, when, you know,

946
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:50,320
finally, you know, they said, hey, you know, you can go ride around a patrol car now.

947
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,960
And I really, you know, was torn by that.

948
01:16:52,960 --> 01:17:02,440
You know, I, you know, I walked that beat and the sun, rain, snow, sleet, you name it.

949
01:17:02,440 --> 01:17:05,640
You know, they tell you never get cold or hungry, but, you know, so you learn those

950
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:07,040
skills.

951
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:14,800
But again, I think that really applies to what we do.

952
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:20,400
And I've always leaned on, you know, kind of the three legs of the stool, you know,

953
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:22,000
treat everybody the way you want to be treated.

954
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,640
And like I said before, you know, you got to ask the question, how do they want to be

955
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:26,640
treated?

956
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,720
The second one is treat everybody with respect, no matter what.

957
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,040
And the third is never take their dignity away.

958
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:38,680
Otherwise, that stool is going to come collapsing down on you.

959
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,680
I just want to segue for a second and then move forward again.

960
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,800
But this is the perfect time to ask this question.

961
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,160
You have this background, obviously, in Naval Special Warfare.

962
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:55,440
When you enter multiple first responder professions, and now in 2024, we're reflecting.

963
01:17:55,440 --> 01:18:02,200
What is your opinion on the lack of fitness standards in police and fire coming from,

964
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:08,360
you know, an organization where physical performance was held so high?

965
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:11,200
It's going to come back to bite us in a big way.

966
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:12,200
It will.

967
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:15,280
I mean, it really points to everything that we were talking about.

968
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,480
You know, we're in a high stress profession.

969
01:18:18,480 --> 01:18:23,600
And unless you are exercising, you know, your body, you're maintaining a level of nutrition

970
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:29,700
and fitness and mental health preparedness, then you're going to be vulnerable.

971
01:18:29,700 --> 01:18:34,440
How can you go out and fix other people's problems or help them with their problems

972
01:18:34,440 --> 01:18:37,720
if you are vulnerable yourself?

973
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:42,400
And this is a big part of why I think we're seeing some of the challenges we're seeing

974
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:49,840
within our own profession right now is because in some cases, that emphasis is not high enough.

975
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:51,760
It's not a level of priority.

976
01:18:51,760 --> 01:19:00,360
And you know, this is certainly influenced by the dynamic of staffing shortages, where

977
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:09,360
I think the worst thing you can do is reduce your standards in order to elevate your staffing

978
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:11,800
opportunities.

979
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:13,680
This will always come back to bite you.

980
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:21,160
I can say that without hesitation, you know, in over 45 years of being in this profession

981
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:30,060
at various, you know, angles, that is probably a disastrous leadership decision when they

982
01:19:30,060 --> 01:19:38,520
take the easy way out and lower standards because it will come back to bite them.

983
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:43,600
I think one of them, I've seen this firsthand when I work for Anaheim, California, their

984
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:49,380
standards all over were incredibly high and they would lose 25% of every academy class

985
01:19:49,380 --> 01:19:53,640
through attrition, the new hire class, by the time they got to the end of the probationary

986
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:54,640
year.

987
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:58,040
Conversely, the last place I worked at the bar was in a trench.

988
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:02,480
And you know, it was almost no one was lining up to join them.

989
01:20:02,480 --> 01:20:05,360
And Anaheim, there were thousands of people trying to work for them.

990
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:10,280
So lowering the standards may sound like it makes sense, but it's actually counterintuitive

991
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:14,040
because you attract the best people by challenging them.

992
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:19,320
What really scares me about the recruitment crisis now is because of that, Anaheim back

993
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:26,280
in 2005, there was 30 spots and over a thousand people testing, like qualified resumes thick

994
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:28,040
testing for that position.

995
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:31,240
They got to choose what they deemed as the top 30.

996
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:35,000
Now you're having agencies as 30 spots and there's 30 candidates that have taken them

997
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,000
all.

998
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:41,200
And so that bar, you know, not only have you lowered the bar physically and maybe even

999
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:46,560
educationally, but now you've taken not only the great candidates that absolutely going

1000
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,760
to be in there, but the ones that are going to be a complete liability, whether it's at

1001
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:54,960
that rank or maybe rising all the way through to chief.

1002
01:20:54,960 --> 01:21:07,920
And you know, James, you point something out that really, I think, breeds disaster in that

1003
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:14,120
dynamic where you see the 30 candidates for 30 positions.

1004
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:21,840
What tends to happen is those folks that are the high performers wind up being pulled down

1005
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:29,120
to the least common denominator of which, you know, to get people through the door,

1006
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,720
minimal level of performance and expectation.

1007
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:38,240
And because these high performers, you know, no matter what, you know, as they continue

1008
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:44,200
to try to perform at a high level, do not get support from their leadership.

1009
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,440
And through time, they start to erode.

1010
01:21:47,440 --> 01:21:52,740
They start to come back down to this level of mediocrity, you know, this minimal level

1011
01:21:52,740 --> 01:21:54,140
of performance.

1012
01:21:54,140 --> 01:21:58,100
And that's when you see, you know, a collision.

1013
01:21:58,100 --> 01:21:59,100
It's going to catch up.

1014
01:21:59,100 --> 01:22:08,640
And that's exactly, you know, over the years in those situations, you know, witness firsthand,

1015
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:14,400
you know, that that dynamic and, you know, leadership takes strength.

1016
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:21,360
And you're not always going to be the decisions are going to be tough, you know, and the buck

1017
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:23,000
stops here.

1018
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:29,400
But sometimes it may be better not to fully staff the vacancies with the right people

1019
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:36,520
as opposed to filling all the vacancies and assuming the risk of getting the wrong people,

1020
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,340
because those wrong people will come back to bite you.

1021
01:22:39,340 --> 01:22:45,480
They will come back and they will they will cause you problems down the road in ways that

1022
01:22:45,480 --> 01:22:47,640
you hadn't even dreamed of.

1023
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:57,480
And and so I think to that point is, you know, having that discipline, having the commitment

1024
01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:04,240
to maintain those high standards that esprit de corps, that that, you know, those bragging

1025
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:12,120
rights, you know, that that you had at Anaheim to to say, hey, you know, we're the best of

1026
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:13,120
the best.

1027
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:18,360
And and, you know, if you want to be part of this department, you need to walk the walk.

1028
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:21,920
You need to walk this line the way we want you to walk it.

1029
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:27,960
And you need to be able to, you know, prove yourself, you know, competent to be part of

1030
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:29,760
this this tribe.

1031
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:30,760
Absolutely.

1032
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,640
Well, speaking of high performers, let's go to Ryan then.

1033
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:37,720
So talk to me what he was like as a little boy.

1034
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:42,440
And then again, earlier question, what was he playing during school ages as far as sports

1035
01:23:42,440 --> 01:23:43,440
and exercise?

1036
01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:49,320
You know, he was a happy, lucky kid, you know, always smiling.

1037
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:55,560
You know, he was, I would say, more quiet than he was, you know, outgoing, but yet,

1038
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,640
you know, very engaging in sports.

1039
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:05,320
You know, he wasn't a standout athlete, you know, played a little soccer, loved lacrosse.

1040
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:16,280
And then in high school, he became through a neighbor who had a business in in in the

1041
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:20,600
local area, had a diving salvage company.

1042
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:25,880
He you know, I got him, you know, scuba certified.

1043
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:31,560
And then he started, you know, in his high school years working for, you know, my neighbor

1044
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:33,840
and his side business.

1045
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:38,080
And then I was joined by a couple of his friends.

1046
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:44,560
And they wound up diving year around, you know, doing all the scutt work that you can

1047
01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:50,720
imagine here in the Annapolis area, cleaning the bottom of rich people's boats, you know,

1048
01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:56,920
so that they can compete in their, you know, Wednesday night sailing races, retrieving

1049
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:03,520
things that fell overboard, you know, replacing zincs and other hardware.

1050
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:12,120
It was it, you know, he loved making money and loved the freedom that he had, you know,

1051
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,320
doing that job as as as dirty as it was sometimes.

1052
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:22,720
And then he also worked as along with his sister as a waiter here at a local restaurant,

1053
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:29,920
which taught him how to deal with people of all, you know, you know, different backgrounds

1054
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,760
and under different conditions.

1055
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:34,160
And but but he was a regular kid.

1056
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:35,160
He loved music.

1057
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:41,980
He had a tremendous ability to.

1058
01:25:41,980 --> 01:25:50,040
He could listen to a song and then pick up a guitar or, you know, a couple other instruments

1059
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:54,600
and start playing that song without looking at a sheet sheet music.

1060
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:59,840
I you know, I know that there are other people out there that, you know, have that same,

1061
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:04,200
you know, you know, talent or or ability.

1062
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:06,680
But I was able to witness that in him.

1063
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:13,480
He was he was great with musical instruments and.

1064
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:15,960
But you know, again, I'd say he was an average kid.

1065
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:24,200
You know, he he was not, you know, above the fold standout athlete or academic.

1066
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:28,080
He he had an unusual ability to abstract.

1067
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:34,780
He could he could think second, third order effects, which later in his seal career became

1068
01:26:34,780 --> 01:26:42,760
a real attribute because he was one of their one of their operational planners and and

1069
01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:50,020
was was recognized for his ability to to play in difficult missions.

1070
01:26:50,020 --> 01:26:54,760
So what was it that made him decide to follow in your footsteps and enter the teams?

1071
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:56,960
Yeah, I'm not sure.

1072
01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,440
I wouldn't characterize it as following in my footsteps, though.

1073
01:27:00,440 --> 01:27:02,880
A lot of people, I think, make that assumption.

1074
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:07,160
I will say, you know, he's pretty much, you know, an independent kid.

1075
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:09,760
I could see reflections of that as he was growing up.

1076
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:11,640
He wasn't always a follower.

1077
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:17,880
He kind of would, you know, do his own thing, you know, separate from, you know, the rest

1078
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,640
of his crew.

1079
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:26,520
But then other times he would be right right in there with him.

1080
01:27:26,520 --> 01:27:33,320
I'll tell you what what what it was, and and this is no different than many of the folks

1081
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:34,320
listening.

1082
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:42,160
You know, we went through 9-11 experience, you know, at the time I was a supervisory

1083
01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:47,720
special agent with the Secret Service up in their New York field office, which was located

1084
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:50,240
in the World Trade Center.

1085
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:56,920
And on 9-11, you know, kind of go quickly through that day.

1086
01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:58,240
The attack occurs.

1087
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:03,560
I always had a routine where I go in early in the morning and run along the Hudson River,

1088
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:09,640
you know, before traffic, you know, bottlenecked, you know, at the bridges and tunnels.

1089
01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:14,040
And I had just finished a run when the first plane hit Tower One.

1090
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:24,040
And you know, we wound up evacuating our building, went down to the street.

1091
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:30,320
And you know, as the rest of our office was evacuating and relocating, I was interfacing

1092
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:35,680
with police and fire command that was assembling at the time with the police commissioner,

1093
01:28:35,680 --> 01:28:38,840
fire commissioner, head of OEM.

1094
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,400
And that's when the second plane hit.

1095
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:48,360
But you know, once that second plane hit, you know, everything went to shit.

1096
01:28:48,360 --> 01:28:54,320
You know, command structure, you know, in many ways became chaotic.

1097
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:57,680
The integrated command kind of started to separate.

1098
01:28:57,680 --> 01:29:00,640
Police went one way, fire went another.

1099
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:07,920
And you know, got caught in both building collapses.

1100
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:12,680
Got involved in rescue operations.

1101
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:15,560
Probably should have been dead about five times that day.

1102
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:28,080
You know, almost had one of the unfortunate folks who, you know, jumped, almost land on

1103
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:32,160
me.

1104
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:34,640
But it was a surreal day.

1105
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:39,600
It still is even now when I think about it.

1106
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:43,900
I initially had gotten reported as missing.

1107
01:29:43,900 --> 01:29:49,540
But through that day, as all that was unfolding, my wife was a nurse paramedic taking care

1108
01:29:49,540 --> 01:29:50,920
of a hard intact victim.

1109
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:58,000
And her first realization of what was going on is, you know, it was on this gentleman's

1110
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:02,680
TV as he's, you know, having an active chest pain.

1111
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:06,680
And she had to pull herself together to get him to the hospital before she kind of, you

1112
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:11,440
know, lost her shit.

1113
01:30:11,440 --> 01:30:20,040
And then my two kids were, you know, in middle school, early high school, and had witnessed

1114
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:24,000
this all unfold from a hillside west of the city.

1115
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,400
I had initially been reported as missing.

1116
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:34,440
But, you know, going through the day, eventually came out, got decon'd.

1117
01:30:34,440 --> 01:30:37,880
But I knew I had to get home that night to see them.

1118
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:43,360
And about midnight that night, I walked through the door, you know, wearing a pair of sweats

1119
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:48,880
that's, you know, three or four times, you know, too large for me because my suit and

1120
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:51,400
everything else had been torn to shreds.

1121
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:58,400
My eyes were beet red and, you know, just, you know, all scratched up.

1122
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:02,840
And I just looked at, you know, the family and they were looking back at me and they

1123
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:07,120
just, you know, it was that look that you can't even define.

1124
01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:08,560
We just all hugged each other.

1125
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:15,320
But that was the first time I realized that both buildings had come down.

1126
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:24,600
And, you know, realizing that we were in so deep that we were on the leeward side of all

1127
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:31,960
the smoke and fire blowing over the top of us, didn't realize that the top of the buildings

1128
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:34,920
had come down or the whole building had come down.

1129
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:37,680
We just thought a section of the top had come down.

1130
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:43,920
It wasn't until later that night I realized that, you know, both of the, you know, tower

1131
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:52,040
one, tower two, and then eventually our building, tower seven, which is a 49 story building,

1132
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:58,800
came down later that afternoon.

1133
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:01,040
That affected my son.

1134
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,000
He really kind of closed up.

1135
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:12,640
He, you know, kind of went into a period of, you know, he wasn't communicating.

1136
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:18,120
He wasn't coming out of his room, didn't want to go to school.

1137
01:32:18,120 --> 01:32:24,400
About two weeks after 9-11, he came to me and said, Dad, I want to go down to ground

1138
01:32:24,400 --> 01:32:25,400
zero.

1139
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:26,400
I have to understand what happened.

1140
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:29,680
I think he's 14 years old at this point.

1141
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:31,400
And I said, it's not a good idea.

1142
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:33,920
Your mom's not going to go for it.

1143
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,120
And he says, Dad, I just need to understand.

1144
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:41,040
You know, a bunch of his friends had lost their parents around us.

1145
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:49,240
I mean, this had ripped in our community, you know, pretty hard.

1146
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:53,920
And you can imagine two weeks after that event, you know, our society was still, you know,

1147
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:58,360
kind of, you know, in a head spin.

1148
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:02,440
So something told me that he needed to go down there and see this.

1149
01:33:02,440 --> 01:33:05,520
Of course, his mother, you know, was completely against it.

1150
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,000
I said to her, look, you got to trust me.

1151
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:09,820
I think some, you know, he needs to see this.

1152
01:33:09,820 --> 01:33:12,880
So we got down there to ground zero.

1153
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:18,720
And I was one of the ground zero supervisors, you know, by the time they we got down there,

1154
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:22,560
you know, the transition from a rescue and recovery operations.

1155
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:28,840
And they figured out that the air was not good to breathe, you know, after, you know,

1156
01:33:28,840 --> 01:33:31,720
almost two weeks of, you know, no respirators or anything.

1157
01:33:31,720 --> 01:33:36,880
So now everybody was in respirators, wearing helmets, you know, you know, OSHA had shown

1158
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:38,680
up.

1159
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:45,160
And so I dressed them up into a police jacket, you know, put the gear on them and, you know,

1160
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:48,600
you know, walked them around the site.

1161
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:53,840
And the deal was, hey, if I see that you're not handling this, we're out of here, no questions

1162
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:54,840
asked.

1163
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:56,440
And he said, agreed.

1164
01:33:56,440 --> 01:34:01,040
So the site was so immense, it took us about three, three and a half hours to walk around.

1165
01:34:01,040 --> 01:34:03,640
And I tried to explain what I remembered.

1166
01:34:03,640 --> 01:34:07,480
There's a period of time during that day that I was, I don't know what happened.

1167
01:34:07,480 --> 01:34:12,640
I just can't put together some things.

1168
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:18,080
And you know, at the end, I said to him, you know, have you seen enough?

1169
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:23,200
And he looked at me, he said, I appreciate you bringing me down here.

1170
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:27,680
And so, you know, life goes on.

1171
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:31,800
I wound up getting transferred back to the White House to take over security operations

1172
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:35,200
there.

1173
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:39,880
It was, you know, getting uprooted after 9-11 up there was not a popular thing with the

1174
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:40,880
family.

1175
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:44,000
But we came back to the Annapolis area.

1176
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:52,640
And a number of years later, you know, he graduated from high school.

1177
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:57,480
As I said, he had been diving for a salvage company, doing some other jobs.

1178
01:34:57,480 --> 01:34:59,680
And I said, so what are you going to do?

1179
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:02,680
And he said, well, I'm trying to figure it out.

1180
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:05,640
I said, well, you got a year.

1181
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:08,600
You can live here a year.

1182
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:13,960
But after that, you're out and you're on your own.

1183
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:17,480
About nine months later, he came home, walked in the house one day, said, I just listed

1184
01:35:17,480 --> 01:35:18,480
in the Navy.

1185
01:35:18,480 --> 01:35:24,580
And oh, by the way, I volunteered for the SEAL program, at which point I looked over

1186
01:35:24,580 --> 01:35:28,120
at my wife and she's reaching into the knife drawer.

1187
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:31,680
You know, this is your fault.

1188
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:37,360
You know, you've done this to him.

1189
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:39,960
And I said, no, I haven't.

1190
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:43,540
I said, he needs to cut his own path and I have to respect that.

1191
01:35:43,540 --> 01:35:46,280
We have to respect that.

1192
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:49,480
And I said to him, you sure this is what you want to do?

1193
01:35:49,480 --> 01:35:56,360
Because there was nothing in his makeup that really kind of pointed towards, gave me the

1194
01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:01,080
confidence that, you know, this was the right decision for him.

1195
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:04,960
But I said, you know, I just want you to do me one favor.

1196
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:14,920
I want you to talk to some team guys because I want you to fully understand what you're

1197
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:17,320
getting yourself into.

1198
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:22,280
And so I got him, you know, obviously in Annapolis area, we got a pipeline of SEALs, you know,

1199
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:30,640
going through the Naval Academy and other, you know, local programs and had him sit down

1200
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:35,800
with some, you know, recent combat vets from, you know, coming in from Iraq and Afghanistan.

1201
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:40,320
I told the guys, I said, look, don't pull any punches, you know, give them the good,

1202
01:36:40,320 --> 01:36:41,320
bad and the ugly.

1203
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:43,600
And so they did.

1204
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:46,400
And afterwards, he said, hasn't changed my mind.

1205
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:50,720
This is what I want to do.

1206
01:36:50,720 --> 01:37:01,540
And you know, a little less than two years later, pinning a trident on his chest.

1207
01:37:01,540 --> 01:37:05,360
So I know he followed kind of the medical path to and again may not be followed, followed,

1208
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:10,040
but he found himself as a combat medic and walked me through, you know, the roles that

1209
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:13,280
he played in the teams and then where he found himself deployed.

1210
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:18,880
Yeah, he went to his special ops medic training, 18 Delta down at Fort Bragg.

1211
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:28,960
I think now it's called Fort Liberty and came back out of that, graduated the top of his

1212
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:34,920
class, immediately deployed to Iraq, you know, within days of being in Iraq out in the Al

1213
01:37:34,920 --> 01:37:35,920
Ambar area.

1214
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:44,480
I think they were playing around Fallujah, Ramadi, you know, on missions.

1215
01:37:44,480 --> 01:37:48,560
He was immediately in contact with the enemy.

1216
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:50,120
That was his first deployment.

1217
01:37:50,120 --> 01:38:01,420
So it wasn't, you know, but days or hours that he, you know, got his, you know, cherry

1218
01:38:01,420 --> 01:38:04,280
broken, you know, in combat.

1219
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:12,800
And then went on to second deployment that was up in northern Iraq in a what we call

1220
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:17,080
an HVI high value target hunt.

1221
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:27,920
He was assigned to a tier one special operations unit up there as an ONT and wound up being,

1222
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,600
you know, very integral to that unit as a SEAL.

1223
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:33,480
It was an Army tier one unit.

1224
01:38:33,480 --> 01:38:42,280
And you know, they saw a lot of action, a lot of nasty stuff up in that environment

1225
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:54,320
and wound up actually being recommended and awarded the Bronze Star for his actions during

1226
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:57,680
that deployment.

1227
01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:02,440
Towards the end of the deployment, they got word that a medic in Afghanistan, a senior

1228
01:39:02,440 --> 01:39:13,800
medic had been they had lost a, you know, him and needed to have a replacement.

1229
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:17,520
So Ryan raised his hand and said, look, I'll go.

1230
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:23,420
At that point, he was single but living with a steady girlfriend in the San Diego area.

1231
01:39:23,420 --> 01:39:30,580
So he came home, dropped his, you know, Iraq kit and build out his Afghan kit and deployed

1232
01:39:30,580 --> 01:39:39,400
two weeks later into the Aruzgan, Taran, Kowt area of Afghanistan, where again, the whole

1233
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:40,520
different terrain.

1234
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:46,240
And you know, I had been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan before him, because at that

1235
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:52,080
point I was a senior leader in the Department of Defense working the counter ID and counter

1236
01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:53,920
terrorism problem.

1237
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,640
So I've been bouncing in and out of theater.

1238
01:39:56,640 --> 01:40:00,280
And I told him, I said, hey, you know, I got it.

1239
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:07,600
You know, you've had your two pumps to Iraq, but Afghanistan is a whole different ballgame.

1240
01:40:07,600 --> 01:40:12,400
I said, don't think that, you know, you're stepping into the same onto the same field

1241
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:14,800
is completely different.

1242
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:19,600
And you know, sure enough, he came off that deployment and he said, you're exactly right.

1243
01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:21,640
It was a different world.

1244
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:29,880
And in between his back to back deployment, which was almost a year's worth of being

1245
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:36,080
deployed half the time in Iraq and then half the time in Afghanistan, came home.

1246
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:40,920
And that's when we started seeing the first signs that something was changing, was having

1247
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:41,920
difficulty sleeping.

1248
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:53,720
You know, his personality was, you know, coming, you know, harder in the sense of.

1249
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:56,200
And again, that could be maturity of operations.

1250
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:57,640
He's growing up.

1251
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:00,800
But something was something was starting to shift.

1252
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:09,040
He wasn't smiling as much and became, you know, short fused at times, wound up breaking

1253
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:15,200
up with his girlfriend that he lived with for five years.

1254
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:20,280
Went to sniper training during that break between the third and fourth deployment and

1255
01:41:20,280 --> 01:41:24,880
then went back to Afghanistan, back to the Helmand River Valley, where, you know, that's

1256
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:32,960
where the heart of all their opium growing in production was.

1257
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:34,440
And went to an outpost.

1258
01:41:34,440 --> 01:41:37,560
It was like Fort Apache.

1259
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:44,840
You know, they were constantly being harassed and attacked by the enemy there.

1260
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,920
You know, high op tempo.

1261
01:41:47,920 --> 01:41:51,600
You know, you know, another tough deployment.

1262
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:58,920
He comes home from that experience, which during that time, the IEDs, especially the

1263
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:02,360
pressure plate IEDs were prolific.

1264
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:05,240
I mean, they were all over the place.

1265
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:11,880
And my fear is the person that ran that organization is that, you know, I was going to get a message,

1266
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:19,240
you know, that, you know, he had been injured or worse, you know, stepping on one of those

1267
01:42:19,240 --> 01:42:20,680
things.

1268
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:26,920
And Buddy made it through the deployment.

1269
01:42:26,920 --> 01:42:34,120
You know, they all got banged up and but came home and he was immediately, you know, assigned

1270
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:42,480
to, you know, the training division because of his combat experience and his reputation

1271
01:42:42,480 --> 01:42:47,480
as a senior petty officer to lead the special operations urban combat training.

1272
01:42:47,480 --> 01:42:51,320
They called it Salk there on the West Coast.

1273
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:58,720
And at the same time, you know, those changes continued to manifest.

1274
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:04,760
You know, he started complaining he couldn't sleep that, you know, when he did get to sleep,

1275
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,160
he'd have nightmares.

1276
01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:15,080
Alcohol usage increased, you know, to deal not only with the sleep, but also with, I

1277
01:43:15,080 --> 01:43:20,440
think, some of the anxiety that he was starting to experience.

1278
01:43:20,440 --> 01:43:26,080
You know, he was losing that edge that he had had.

1279
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:36,600
Starting to doubt things, you know, you know, as time went on, became hyper vigilant, you

1280
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:38,720
know, went to get help.

1281
01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:43,320
And and that's when the prescription drugs started, you know, drugs to help him go to

1282
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:49,120
sleep, drugs to help him with his anxiety.

1283
01:43:49,120 --> 01:43:57,480
The alcohol continued because, you know, it's readily available and kind of, you know, they're

1284
01:43:57,480 --> 01:44:04,240
just trying to kind of stay normal, stay above the water line.

1285
01:44:04,240 --> 01:44:10,320
And and then we started seeing decline in cognitive functions had problems with his

1286
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:17,120
balance and memory and his memory issues really started to frustrate him.

1287
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:25,160
He started questioning whether he was, you know, becoming a safety factor for for, you

1288
01:44:25,160 --> 01:44:30,160
know, his teammates and went to get help.

1289
01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:38,360
And the system initially, you know, kind of directed him towards a low hanging fruit,

1290
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:47,480
as I said, more more prescription drugs, really, you know, focusing on PTSD and, you know, the

1291
01:44:47,480 --> 01:44:54,040
mental health aspects of, you know, what he had been through or what he was presenting

1292
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:58,280
and very little talk about traumatic brain injury.

1293
01:44:58,280 --> 01:45:09,320
And, you know, they focused on his alcohol issues and, you know, but we just continue

1294
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:15,840
to see a steadily, you know, downward spiral, no matter what we did.

1295
01:45:15,840 --> 01:45:24,320
The system, you know, started to turn against him, you know, as he stepped forward to get

1296
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:34,000
help, started to weaponize, you know, you know, his his his pleas for help, you know,

1297
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:39,640
his his his complaints against him.

1298
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:43,280
You know, I believe the system just didn't know what to do.

1299
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:51,500
And and when the when the low hanging fruit, the easy stuff didn't work, then it was, look,

1300
01:45:51,500 --> 01:45:55,400
we don't have time for this, you know, let's just get rid of the problem.

1301
01:45:55,400 --> 01:46:02,080
And so there was a sea change towards, you know, trying to help him out, you know, maybe

1302
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:06,520
trying to do the right things, you know, for the right reason, but all the wrong way, because

1303
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:08,520
they didn't know.

1304
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:14,680
And it became, you know, now you're a problem, you know, you know, started focusing on discipline,

1305
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:20,880
you know, looking for, you know, reasons to to move him out of the community.

1306
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:27,360
And this is this is a, you know, highly revered seal, highly revered, highly decorated, highly

1307
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:32,960
experienced seal operator who suddenly start to have manifest these problems.

1308
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:36,760
And nobody's standing back saying, hey, WTF, what just happened here?

1309
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:37,760
What's going on?

1310
01:46:37,760 --> 01:46:46,200
Instead, it was, you know, you know, to me, leadership failure, leaders who violated our

1311
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:53,360
core ethic of not leaving anybody behind because they didn't want to deal with it while others,

1312
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:58,560
you know, we're trying to deal with it, but handicapped by not knowing exactly what was

1313
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:00,360
going on.

1314
01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:02,880
And the drugs were just making making it worse.

1315
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:07,000
You know, he felt like what he was in his own body.

1316
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:13,640
And so eventually got to a point where, you know, he pulled himself out of, you know,

1317
01:47:13,640 --> 01:47:21,040
that South role and he was reassigned to a less demanding task as he, you know, went

1318
01:47:21,040 --> 01:47:24,440
through some different programs.

1319
01:47:24,440 --> 01:47:30,400
Nothing was nothing was, you know, happening in effect.

1320
01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:40,760
So, you know, eventually, you know, you know, he started separating, you know, started to

1321
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:45,160
become disconnected from, you know, the tribe.

1322
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:49,840
You know, he I mean, this was eaten away at him.

1323
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:52,840
He felt like he was letting his boys down.

1324
01:47:52,840 --> 01:48:01,320
He decided that, you know, we're trying to get him into a poly trauma program up in Palo

1325
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:06,720
Alto, allied to the VA in Stanford.

1326
01:48:06,720 --> 01:48:12,440
And he agreed to it, but he said, I want out of the Navy.

1327
01:48:12,440 --> 01:48:21,960
And he had just before he got out, he really went into a dark place and they took him in

1328
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:28,560
for a mental health evaluation where ultimately, you know, physically holding him down in an

1329
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:30,720
emergency department.

1330
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:33,600
And you know, he's telling them, hey, look, I want out.

1331
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:37,840
You know, I just, you know, I'm just tired.

1332
01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:39,840
You know, you're hurting me.

1333
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:41,600
And you know, made some threats.

1334
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:47,560
And that was enough for them to lock him up into them into a lockdown unit where he spent

1335
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:50,680
the next month.

1336
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:58,120
It was it was to see your son in a state like that.

1337
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:01,960
It was it just ripped my heart in half.

1338
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:03,880
I didn't even recognize him.

1339
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:12,160
I mean, he had, you know, when you talk about, you know, it just seemed like, you know, everything

1340
01:49:12,160 --> 01:49:17,920
that I had talked about earlier, you know, in my law enforcement days about respecting

1341
01:49:17,920 --> 01:49:22,520
people, treating them the way you want to be respected and understanding how they want

1342
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:24,920
to be respected and dignity.

1343
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:29,080
Every one of those freaking tenants was violated.

1344
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:36,040
And and then, you know, once you put somebody in a lockdown unit like that, you know, that's

1345
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:37,040
it.

1346
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:40,680
I mean, that's a stain that's going to follow you for the rest of your life.

1347
01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:47,720
And so at that point, he was he was moving towards discharge out of the Navy, you know,

1348
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:53,680
completely away from what, you know, he intended to do, you know, less than a year before.

1349
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,480
And that was making the teams a career.

1350
01:49:56,480 --> 01:50:00,560
I mean, that was that was his objective.

1351
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:05,200
He was discharged the day.

1352
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:10,240
He was discharged from the Navy simultaneously as he was discharged from the lockdown ward

1353
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:14,160
at the Naval Hospital of San Diego.

1354
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:18,720
The people there said they had never seen anything like that before.

1355
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:23,080
He was just a shell of of the human he once was.

1356
01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:29,120
And I remember as we walked out, he was wearing a hospital, you know, a scrub top and a pair

1357
01:50:29,120 --> 01:50:33,760
of board shorts and some flip flops and and all the emotion was completely out of his

1358
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:34,760
face.

1359
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:38,720
He was just as if he was wearing this stone mask.

1360
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:45,240
And as we're walking towards the car, he stops and he turns to me, he says, hey, dad, why

1361
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:47,480
did they do this to me?

1362
01:50:47,480 --> 01:50:51,480
All I was trying to do is help my boys.

1363
01:50:51,480 --> 01:50:53,960
Why did they do this to me?

1364
01:50:53,960 --> 01:51:00,680
And then he turned back around and just shoveled forward.

1365
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:03,200
Never got any closure with his teammates.

1366
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:08,360
They were never told that he was discharged.

1367
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:10,560
He carried this burden that he let them down.

1368
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:12,320
He was their doc.

1369
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:17,700
You know, he was their, you know, their, you know, their enlisted leader.

1370
01:51:17,700 --> 01:51:21,480
And now he was gone and nobody knew why.

1371
01:51:21,480 --> 01:51:32,880
And you know, real tough time, real tough time for him, for us, for his teammates.

1372
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:40,160
I'm still trying to resolve, you know, some of the leadership behavior at that time and

1373
01:51:40,160 --> 01:51:46,840
how they could still look themselves in the face with the knowledge that they had gotten

1374
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:49,480
so wrong.

1375
01:51:49,480 --> 01:51:54,640
Going back to some of the factors before we obviously get to the next part of the conversation,

1376
01:51:54,640 --> 01:52:00,440
you know, we have the TBI element and I think the macro traumas are evident.

1377
01:52:00,440 --> 01:52:04,040
You know, someone was blown out of a Humvee or whatever it was, but it's the micro traumas,

1378
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:10,000
the breaches, the explosions around, you know, firing their own weapon that we hear about.

1379
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:16,000
But aside from that, over and over again, one of the most toxic things that you can

1380
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:20,560
do to someone who has served for years and years and years and pointing out to exactly

1381
01:52:20,560 --> 01:52:24,720
what you said when they were hired, when they were earlier in their career, they were phenomenal

1382
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:30,400
at what they did is the moment they start having problems, they're ostracized and they're

1383
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:36,120
thrown from the tribe, the very tribe that they were a part of, they swore to serve.

1384
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:41,520
And there seems to be a lack of the ability to just step back and go, wait a second, they

1385
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:43,000
were great before.

1386
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:44,000
What's happened?

1387
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:47,080
They were hired and they were a complete turd from day one.

1388
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:48,080
Whole different story.

1389
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:50,120
We should never have got that person in.

1390
01:52:50,120 --> 01:52:54,440
But so many firefighters and police officers and SEALs and, you know, so many other people

1391
01:52:54,440 --> 01:52:57,200
in uniform, they were great.

1392
01:52:57,200 --> 01:52:58,400
They were doing really well.

1393
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:00,480
And then the job started changing them.

1394
01:53:00,480 --> 01:53:05,600
And I don't know why there's a complete lack of empathy and compassion when looking at

1395
01:53:05,600 --> 01:53:08,040
the through line between someone's service.

1396
01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:12,120
Like if they were an absolute disaster from day one, you can go, well, look, you know,

1397
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:14,280
they brought it in and they've never improved.

1398
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:15,880
They're still the same.

1399
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:21,360
But so many of these men and women were stellar firefighters and, you know, operators, whatever

1400
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:22,920
role they played.

1401
01:53:22,920 --> 01:53:26,320
And then there was this decline, whether it was slow or whether it was acute.

1402
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:31,600
And the perfect example, I had a widow of a firefighter who took his own life and he

1403
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:33,560
was winning firefighter of the year.

1404
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:36,520
You know, he was just a stellar employee.

1405
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:43,040
And then there was this massive, you know, just psychosis in a breakdown and he himself

1406
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,720
was isolated for a long, long time.

1407
01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:50,720
And when I speak to people in the psychological world, they say of the detrimental element

1408
01:53:50,720 --> 01:53:51,720
of that.

1409
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:55,760
And then when you speak to the same people about the side effects of psychiatric meds,

1410
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,840
the detriment and the lack of efficacy of so many of these meds that are thrown are

1411
01:53:59,840 --> 01:54:01,840
first responders and veterans.

1412
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:06,160
So now, you know, eight years into this podcast, when I hear this story, you just like, oh,

1413
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:12,400
my God, there's just this Jenga tower building of all the wrong ways of treating this person.

1414
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:16,320
And then more often than not, it ends up with a suicide.

1415
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:17,560
Yeah.

1416
01:54:17,560 --> 01:54:20,680
So the word is institutional betrayal.

1417
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:23,880
It's a new term that's come forward.

1418
01:54:23,880 --> 01:54:27,080
And it really describes what you just talked about.

1419
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:34,720
You know, you give it all for, you know, your team, for your unit, for your service, for

1420
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:45,240
the nation, and then, you know, when you need help or things don't go right, then the institution

1421
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:48,720
turns on you.

1422
01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:53,480
And I'm trying to, you know, that's one of the things I'm trying to resolve and rectify

1423
01:54:53,480 --> 01:54:57,000
in my own head is why.

1424
01:54:57,000 --> 01:55:04,960
And you know, I've come to understand that, you know, when, you know, it's almost like

1425
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:10,920
a human factors dynamic that if there's something that you don't understand, very often you

1426
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:13,560
start to fear it.

1427
01:55:13,560 --> 01:55:18,560
And then in that fear, you start to demonize it.

1428
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:26,600
And this is where, you know, these false narratives, these stories start to surround these individuals

1429
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:35,200
and, and very often I can trace it back to, you know, the system fails to listen to them

1430
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:42,360
and it's quick to judge because it, because what they're bringing forward doesn't fit

1431
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:48,720
within that comfortable dynamic of the environment that they're in, especially if we don't have

1432
01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:50,600
any answers.

1433
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:59,000
And, and, and, you know, you know how you feel when, when, you know, you get the impression

1434
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:02,440
that somebody's not listening to you.

1435
01:56:02,440 --> 01:56:08,080
You know, you're trying to convey something, you're trying to express something and, and

1436
01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:14,760
they're just blowing you off or they got a, you know, deaf ear to what you're saying or,

1437
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:23,600
you know, whatever it is, they're just disregarding you and, and, and, and you, and your opinion.

1438
01:56:23,600 --> 01:56:33,280
And, and that, that can have an almost an instantaneous, you know, detriment to any

1439
01:56:33,280 --> 01:56:35,380
relationship dynamic.

1440
01:56:35,380 --> 01:56:37,000
And this is what happened with him.

1441
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:39,040
I mean, they stopped listening to him.

1442
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:44,600
I mean, and he was telling him, you know, as we'll go along with the story, you'll,

1443
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:51,480
you'll see that all along he was telling him, them, you know, what they needed to focus

1444
01:56:51,480 --> 01:56:58,680
on what, what was happening, but they weren't listening because it didn't fit in their start

1445
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:00,240
line.

1446
01:57:00,240 --> 01:57:04,240
And I think that happens whether, you know, it's, it's a military unit, whether it's the

1447
01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:12,160
fire service, whether it's police, and I think that I had a senior chief, SEAL senior chief,

1448
01:57:12,160 --> 01:57:18,600
tell me one time, you know, this is the bent measuring stick analogy.

1449
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:20,360
And I said, what do you mean by that?

1450
01:57:20,360 --> 01:57:30,440
And he said, well, you know, we're all banged up and including a lot of the leaders, both

1451
01:57:30,440 --> 01:57:37,520
mid grade and seniors, and, and we're expected to kind of evaluate each other or evaluate

1452
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:39,800
our subordinates.

1453
01:57:39,800 --> 01:57:48,720
And so that, that center line, that balance line starts to shift and becomes somewhat

1454
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:53,500
askew from what truly is normal.

1455
01:57:53,500 --> 01:57:58,540
And so, and in some cases, what I think is happening is that we're looking at somebody

1456
01:57:58,540 --> 01:58:03,880
that, you know, has been brought to our attention is having some issues or they, they have stepped

1457
01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:06,760
up expressing issues.

1458
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:10,760
And it's almost like we don't want to acknowledge it.

1459
01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:17,800
We don't want to recognize it because it almost means in a subconscious way that, you know,

1460
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:23,160
we're admitting that's happening to us too, if that makes sense.

1461
01:58:23,160 --> 01:58:25,560
And so it's easier to demonize it.

1462
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:31,000
It's easier to push the problem out than rather than to deal with it.

1463
01:58:31,000 --> 01:58:36,640
And to me, this is so counterintuitive, especially after you've made such a great investment

1464
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:38,080
in a particular individual.

1465
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:43,880
And usually, and you pointed this out, a lot of these people are extremely high performers

1466
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:48,920
at the top of their game, at a point of, you know, operational and leadership maturity

1467
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:53,800
where we don't, we can't afford to lose them, but something starts to happen to them.

1468
01:58:53,800 --> 01:58:54,800
So what do we do?

1469
01:58:54,800 --> 01:58:59,880
We throw them to the freaking curb instead of trying to figure out what's going on, what's

1470
01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:01,760
at the root cause.

1471
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:06,320
But you know, we get stuck into this and I think a lot of it's mental health focused

1472
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:14,240
is you know, we get stuck into this, you know, let's treat the symptoms approach instead

1473
01:59:14,240 --> 01:59:21,720
of, Hey, what do we need to peel back here to understand, you know, what's causing this?

1474
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:26,440
One of the truths that emerged, I mean, I'm at almost a thousand conversations now and

1475
01:59:26,440 --> 01:59:34,200
easily, I mean, literally probably two thirds to a half of the guests have at some point

1476
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:36,080
been at that point of near suicide.

1477
01:59:36,080 --> 01:59:40,280
Some of them even went through with their attempt and they survived, thank God.

1478
01:59:40,280 --> 01:59:46,120
But you know, we come from a culture that used to think that suicide was cowardly and

1479
01:59:46,120 --> 01:59:51,360
selfish and how could they and think about your family and then fast forward eight years

1480
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:56,760
and my evolution of understanding this topic, you hear the same thing over and over and

1481
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:58,540
over again.

1482
01:59:58,540 --> 02:00:03,240
And you realize that through the combination of all the things that we've discussed, including

1483
02:00:03,240 --> 02:00:06,880
you know, actual physiological damage of the brain, we should come from trauma, should

1484
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:12,640
come from sleep deprivation that the brain becomes miswired.

1485
02:00:12,640 --> 02:00:17,960
And it seems like literally almost all of these men and women get to a point where they

1486
02:00:17,960 --> 02:00:25,160
truly believe that they are a burden to the very people that they love and that, you know,

1487
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:33,360
skewed sense of reality, suicide then becomes selfless and courageous because they believe

1488
02:00:33,360 --> 02:00:35,300
to their heart that they are the problem.

1489
02:00:35,300 --> 02:00:38,120
So they are going to remove themselves from this issue.

1490
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:40,940
And then you add to the fact that they're in uniform.

1491
02:00:40,940 --> 02:00:44,040
So they've already come to terms with the fact that they will be willing to die for

1492
02:00:44,040 --> 02:00:45,800
someone else.

1493
02:00:45,800 --> 02:00:52,000
When you kind of look back now at Ryan's path, was there any element of burdensome that you

1494
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:53,000
observed?

1495
02:00:53,000 --> 02:00:55,120
Yeah, absolutely.

1496
02:00:55,120 --> 02:01:05,520
I think, you know, I've come to the same conclusion, you know, as he became disenfranchised from

1497
02:01:05,520 --> 02:01:13,920
the community that he loved, separated from the team, certainly, you know, because, you

1498
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:19,640
know, there was things going on, you know, without question, there was things going on

1499
02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:21,680
that he was struggling with.

1500
02:01:21,680 --> 02:01:33,080
But that sense of letting down your teammates and the haunting, you know, aspects of how

1501
02:01:33,080 --> 02:01:40,480
are his teammates viewing him, which is important to understand, because we all, you know, need

1502
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:45,960
qualification and validation from our teammates, from our family, you know, from those around

1503
02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:46,960
us.

1504
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:54,120
And when that's not happening, or it's in doubt, that is not a trivial issue.

1505
02:01:54,120 --> 02:02:01,380
And as he became more separated, that starts to affect your sense of purpose.

1506
02:02:01,380 --> 02:02:02,960
You know, why am I here?

1507
02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:09,960
You know, I no longer can do the things that I was the best at, that I want to do.

1508
02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:19,240
And, you know, I got all these people trying to help me, and in some cases, not help me.

1509
02:02:19,240 --> 02:02:20,640
You know, they're trying to push me out.

1510
02:02:20,640 --> 02:02:26,080
So obviously, I'm somebody that they don't want around anymore.

1511
02:02:26,080 --> 02:02:34,400
And you know, so this, it's amazing how this turns to personal shame.

1512
02:02:34,400 --> 02:02:40,920
And that shaming is, that's something that needs to be studied, you know, in the context

1513
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:43,360
of this institutional betrayal.

1514
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:48,800
Because I really think that, in some cases, the way we deal with these folks, we're actually

1515
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:52,280
setting them up for this.

1516
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:57,600
You know, maybe not intentionally, because we don't know or we don't recognize, but we

1517
02:02:57,600 --> 02:03:01,320
need to approach this a whole different way, in my opinion.

1518
02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:06,960
And for Ryan, yeah, I believe he did feel that he was a burden.

1519
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:15,160
But there's another aspect of what Ryan did, and I think you alluded to this.

1520
02:03:15,160 --> 02:03:18,920
He knew all along that something was wrong with his head.

1521
02:03:18,920 --> 02:03:22,560
And he kept saying, something's wrong with my head, but they're not listening to me.

1522
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:25,680
They keep telling me I'm crazy.

1523
02:03:25,680 --> 02:03:36,280
And you know, after he took his life, we found out he was right.

1524
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:39,400
He was right all along.

1525
02:03:39,400 --> 02:03:42,000
And things fell into place.

1526
02:03:42,000 --> 02:03:46,240
So why does somebody have to take their life before we finally wake up and realize what

1527
02:03:46,240 --> 02:03:49,760
just happened?

1528
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:57,960
And why did we miss all the signals that were there where we potentially could help this

1529
02:03:57,960 --> 02:04:01,280
individual?

1530
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:06,160
I think that, you know, a study was done this past year.

1531
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:16,640
It highlighted the Purple Heart and how that could be a viable kind of solution to those

1532
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:21,600
military folks that are burdened with invisible wounds.

1533
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:23,580
And that's what we've been talking about.

1534
02:04:23,580 --> 02:04:25,120
We're talking about invisible wounds.

1535
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:29,040
We're talking about men and women within, you know, the military, the police and fire

1536
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:31,600
service who look normal on the outside.

1537
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,320
I mean, they don't have any disfiguring injuries.

1538
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:35,880
They're not limping around.

1539
02:04:35,880 --> 02:04:39,080
They don't have a missing arm or a leg.

1540
02:04:39,080 --> 02:04:42,320
They look like everybody else.

1541
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:45,280
But on the inside, they're banged up.

1542
02:04:45,280 --> 02:04:53,480
And instead of treating them like they're injured, we're treating them like they're

1543
02:04:53,480 --> 02:04:55,520
mentally ill.

1544
02:04:55,520 --> 02:05:00,400
And it's not to say there's not mental illness that goes hand in glove with a lot of this

1545
02:05:00,400 --> 02:05:06,040
because I do believe that, you know, there is.

1546
02:05:06,040 --> 02:05:10,700
But we need to find out, is there an underlying injury?

1547
02:05:10,700 --> 02:05:15,400
And when you look back at their operational profile, again, whether they're military,

1548
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:24,920
firefighter, you know, police officer, when you start looking at the physical, you know,

1549
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:32,440
exposures that they've had through their careers and what they've been involved in and, you

1550
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:40,520
know, their profile of injuries and so forth, how could you not step back and say, I think

1551
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:42,760
this person's injured?

1552
02:05:42,760 --> 02:05:45,440
They're hurt.

1553
02:05:45,440 --> 02:05:51,760
You know, there's a great book out there that the body keeps the score.

1554
02:05:51,760 --> 02:05:53,760
I mean, it doesn't go away.

1555
02:05:53,760 --> 02:05:58,920
I mean, it ebbs and flows as far as how you feel on a daily basis or a weekly basis.

1556
02:05:58,920 --> 02:06:05,420
But the body still, you know, racking up every time, you know, you go into a burn building,

1557
02:06:05,420 --> 02:06:10,360
every time you fall off a ladder, you know, every time you don't get a good night's sleep,

1558
02:06:10,360 --> 02:06:18,520
every time you eat, you know, greasy, you know, fast food, the body's, let's not forget

1559
02:06:18,520 --> 02:06:19,520
that.

1560
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:23,560
It's just, it goes, it's another entry on the ledger book.

1561
02:06:23,560 --> 02:06:30,960
And at some point, you know, you start crossing these tear lines of, you know, where it's

1562
02:06:30,960 --> 02:06:35,500
starting to affect your body, it's starting to affect your mental health.

1563
02:06:35,500 --> 02:06:39,920
And what I'm saying is we need to have more of a holistic approach to this.

1564
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:43,440
It's just not solely mental health.

1565
02:06:43,440 --> 02:06:48,760
We need to evaluate, you know, and I think this is what you were kind of pointing at

1566
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:56,520
about, you know, the underlying behaviors that we engage in and how they could multiply

1567
02:06:56,520 --> 02:07:01,640
or compound themselves into some of these situations.

1568
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:05,240
You know, if you're not sleeping, if you're not eating right, if you're not exercising,

1569
02:07:05,240 --> 02:07:10,040
if you're not taking care of mental health, there's going to be a price to pay for that.

1570
02:07:10,040 --> 02:07:13,440
And that's injury.

1571
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:18,840
But with that injury, we also have to incorporate, you know, good behavioral and mental health

1572
02:07:18,840 --> 02:07:20,200
practices.

1573
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:23,360
So I'm not against mental health.

1574
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:32,640
I'm fully, you know, in favor, but we've got to treat our brains like the rest of our body.

1575
02:07:32,640 --> 02:07:37,640
It's you know, and recognize that it's command and control center for everything that goes

1576
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:39,560
on in the body.

1577
02:07:39,560 --> 02:07:44,200
It's absolutely critical to maintain balance in the body.

1578
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:52,960
So yeah, Ryan and like so many others, you know, in this business, they're all about

1579
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:54,320
solutions.

1580
02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:58,120
And so when he took his life, he knew what he was doing.

1581
02:07:58,120 --> 02:07:59,640
I didn't like what he did.

1582
02:07:59,640 --> 02:08:04,880
I didn't support what he did, but I've grown to understand why he did it.

1583
02:08:04,880 --> 02:08:10,520
And it was to help his brothers and sisters out to prove that he was right, that something

1584
02:08:10,520 --> 02:08:12,440
was going on.

1585
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:19,760
And in the end, he was right.

1586
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:20,760
Painfully right.

1587
02:08:20,760 --> 02:08:25,400
Did he do it in a way where his brain was preserved so they could study it post-mortem?

1588
02:08:25,400 --> 02:08:32,400
Yeah, so let me go into that.

1589
02:08:32,400 --> 02:08:38,400
He'd gotten discharged from the Navy, as I mentioned earlier, and then immediately went

1590
02:08:38,400 --> 02:08:39,400
into VA care.

1591
02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:48,360
He was up in the polytrauma program, palliolatip, for a little bit and then came back east,

1592
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:56,360
spent a year in the Annapolis area tied to a couple of VA facilities here, whole time

1593
02:08:56,360 --> 02:08:58,560
continuing to get more medications.

1594
02:08:58,560 --> 02:09:01,880
I mean, over the course of the two years we tried to rescue him.

1595
02:09:01,880 --> 02:09:07,720
He was prescribed over 40 different medications, everything from over the counter potions,

1596
02:09:07,720 --> 02:09:11,480
lotions and creams to high-end psychotropics, mood stabilizers.

1597
02:09:11,480 --> 02:09:17,000
It just, you know, he would say, Dad, I'm not even in my own body anymore.

1598
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:20,600
And every day a new package of drugs would show up in the mail.

1599
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:26,520
Very efficient, the mail order process now these days with our drugs distribution.

1600
02:09:26,520 --> 02:09:33,880
And we've tried to get him into some programs to help him out.

1601
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:40,680
And you know, one thing I will say as a parent who loved his son very much, very proud of

1602
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:49,760
him, you in whether it's Ryan or someone else's child or significant other, when they're in

1603
02:09:49,760 --> 02:09:56,800
trouble you will do anything, anything to help them survive.

1604
02:09:56,800 --> 02:10:06,840
And you become very vulnerable, very vulnerable to, you know, snake oil, you know, quick fixes

1605
02:10:06,840 --> 02:10:08,640
because you get desperate.

1606
02:10:08,640 --> 02:10:15,680
You see them unraveling and they, to every man and woman who's experiencing these invisible

1607
02:10:15,680 --> 02:10:20,800
wounds are, you know, they were once at the top of the peak of this mountain and then

1608
02:10:20,800 --> 02:10:25,380
they're in this almost a terminal slide down the mountain.

1609
02:10:25,380 --> 02:10:30,200
And they're just trying to, you know, grab onto anything to stop the slide.

1610
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:33,520
And they're not getting any answers about what's going on.

1611
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:41,600
And you know, the system is hanging labels on them, you know, they're making judgments

1612
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:45,200
to justify their assessments and their actions.

1613
02:10:45,200 --> 02:10:50,800
And that just has taken, every time that happens, it's taken a bigger chunk out of them.

1614
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:54,920
And they're just sliding and trying to stop that slide.

1615
02:10:54,920 --> 02:11:00,480
And the further they slide, the darker it gets and the more isolated they get.

1616
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:03,840
And that's when bad things happen.

1617
02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:12,640
Ryan and I were sitting around a fire one night in the spring of 2017.

1618
02:11:12,640 --> 02:11:19,520
And we were just talking and, you know, he says to me, you know, he reiterates that,

1619
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:23,520
you know, nobody's listening to him, but something's wrong with his head.

1620
02:11:23,520 --> 02:11:29,640
You know, he's, you know, by then he'd said, I'm not taking these drugs anymore.

1621
02:11:29,640 --> 02:11:36,960
You know, and he said, you know, I'm broken up inside.

1622
02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:42,280
And you know, I'm not going to live till an old age.

1623
02:11:42,280 --> 02:11:44,120
I know that.

1624
02:11:44,120 --> 02:11:50,200
And if anything ever happens to me, I want you to promise me to donate my body for traumatic

1625
02:11:50,200 --> 02:11:53,000
brain injury or breacher syndrome research.

1626
02:11:53,000 --> 02:11:59,800
And breacher's are the explosive experts that blow through walls and doors.

1627
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:03,640
And I said, hey, look, pal, I mean, I'm in this I'm there with for you.

1628
02:12:03,640 --> 02:12:10,200
I mean, you know, in the teams we see, you know, you get your buddy line, you know, your

1629
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:11,200
swim buddy.

1630
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:15,680
You know, I was his swim buddy and I'm not going to leave you.

1631
02:12:15,680 --> 02:12:18,140
And he says, I got it.

1632
02:12:18,140 --> 02:12:20,840
But I just want you to promise me that.

1633
02:12:20,840 --> 02:12:31,320
And then on April 23rd, 2017, we came home from an overnight trip to Philadelphia, the

1634
02:12:31,320 --> 02:12:38,600
family event and pulled into the driveway and something was was not right.

1635
02:12:38,600 --> 02:12:48,360
And you know, remember walking up to the back door of the house and his dog was just beside

1636
02:12:48,360 --> 02:12:57,120
himself and let the dog out and dog immediately ran off.

1637
02:12:57,120 --> 02:13:01,160
And then I went into the house and started calling his name and didn't hear any response

1638
02:13:01,160 --> 02:13:06,840
and went down to the basement and I found him.

1639
02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:18,120
He had taken his life, you know, basically, fixated himself.

1640
02:13:18,120 --> 02:13:28,120
And you know, he was wearing his SEAL Team 7 t-shirt and red, white, blue board shorts

1641
02:13:28,120 --> 02:13:33,280
and had illuminated a shadow box next to him that had all his medals and, you know, six

1642
02:13:33,280 --> 02:13:40,880
signeas and, you know, artifacts from his service and then burn a hard drive of all

1643
02:13:40,880 --> 02:13:45,240
his deployment photos in the in the fireplace.

1644
02:13:45,240 --> 02:13:53,920
And I'll tell you what, you know, I have been in this business, you know, in different capacities

1645
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:57,400
for, you know, 40 some odd years.

1646
02:13:57,400 --> 02:14:07,040
I'll tell you, James, you know, I bear the burden of not being able to rescue my own

1647
02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:14,000
son, you know, despite a career of rescue and other people.

1648
02:14:14,000 --> 02:14:17,520
And that's something that will never go away.

1649
02:14:17,520 --> 02:14:25,120
But you know, my heart was immediately ripped in half and, you know, it stayed that way.

1650
02:14:25,120 --> 02:14:31,840
I mean, every day I think about him, but he took his life in a way that, you know, absolutely

1651
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:44,480
preserved his brain for the next, you know, to really accomplish the wish that he had expressed.

1652
02:14:44,480 --> 02:14:51,360
That was, you know, to examine, you know, if there was something wrong with his brain.

1653
02:14:51,360 --> 02:14:58,320
Two months later, we were called into a research project that was examining military blast

1654
02:14:58,320 --> 02:14:59,320
exposure.

1655
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:05,880
It was out of Bethesda Walter Reed at the National Military Medical Center and a brilliant

1656
02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:11,200
internationally regarded neuropathologist was conducting the study.

1657
02:15:11,200 --> 02:15:19,400
And so he examined Ryan's brain for it, you know, it's quite a process and called us in

1658
02:15:19,400 --> 02:15:24,440
and said, hey, I want to talk to you about what we found.

1659
02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:30,000
And I told him, I said, hey, doc, first of all, here's the deal.

1660
02:15:30,000 --> 02:15:33,880
I said, I don't want you to tell me what you think I want to hear.

1661
02:15:33,880 --> 02:15:37,640
I just want you to give me the straight scoop.

1662
02:15:37,640 --> 02:15:41,200
If you didn't find anything, then you didn't find anything.

1663
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:43,720
He says, that's not the case.

1664
02:15:43,720 --> 02:15:53,120
He says, Ryan died because of an undiagnosed severe level of microscopic brain injury uniquely

1665
02:15:53,120 --> 02:15:55,640
related to blast exposure.

1666
02:15:55,640 --> 02:16:02,160
That every time these energy waves salt the weapon systems from the breaching charges

1667
02:16:02,160 --> 02:16:08,480
from IEDs, improvised explosive devices, you know, this energy wave, this invisible wave

1668
02:16:08,480 --> 02:16:16,160
would just rip through his brain and cause micro tears and micro tears involving astrocytes,

1669
02:16:16,160 --> 02:16:22,520
which are literally the conductors of the brain, the circuitry of the brain.

1670
02:16:22,520 --> 02:16:32,240
And it was all through his brain and particularly in the frontal lobe where the executive functions

1671
02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:33,240
are based.

1672
02:16:33,240 --> 02:16:40,400
You know, your regulatory functions, your emotions, you know, the base of the brain,

1673
02:16:40,400 --> 02:16:44,840
the lower brain was affected, which, you know, regulates your sleep and your hormones and

1674
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:49,400
so forth, which explained why his hormone levels are so out of whack.

1675
02:16:49,400 --> 02:16:59,560
And his other neurochemicals, it was, you know, we got some answers that a lot of people

1676
02:16:59,560 --> 02:17:02,160
don't get.

1677
02:17:02,160 --> 02:17:06,200
And it lifted a burden off of our heart.

1678
02:17:06,200 --> 02:17:09,640
You know, as I said, I didn't like what he did.

1679
02:17:09,640 --> 02:17:13,360
I didn't support what he did, but I've grown to understand why he did it.

1680
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:20,080
I was able to get into his computer with some help after he passed.

1681
02:17:20,080 --> 02:17:27,880
And what I found, James, was that he had downloaded dozens of articles on traumatic brain injury

1682
02:17:27,880 --> 02:17:32,160
and also had been researching all the drugs that he had been on, which most of them carried

1683
02:17:32,160 --> 02:17:37,600
a warning of suicidal ideation.

1684
02:17:37,600 --> 02:17:45,840
And so, you know, I took those results and a couple of months later, I had to sit down

1685
02:17:45,840 --> 02:17:51,000
with the Admiral and his senior staff of the SEAL community.

1686
02:17:51,000 --> 02:17:58,760
And by then they had constructed a story around Ryan that, you know, he had a drinking problem,

1687
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:04,920
you know, he fell and hit his head and, you know, we did everything we could, you know,

1688
02:18:04,920 --> 02:18:05,920
he was a treatment failure.

1689
02:18:05,920 --> 02:18:12,720
You know, I'm sorry, but, you know, the VA was a better place for him.

1690
02:18:12,720 --> 02:18:17,160
And I said, not so fast.

1691
02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:19,440
And laid it all out.

1692
02:18:19,440 --> 02:18:26,760
And, and I give credit to the two star SEAL Admiral that was running the command at the

1693
02:18:26,760 --> 02:18:37,040
time who took that information and said, this isn't the story I was told and started peeling

1694
02:18:37,040 --> 02:18:38,040
into it.

1695
02:18:38,040 --> 02:18:43,160
And as a result, Ryan's story has become a catalyst for a lot of change that's happened

1696
02:18:43,160 --> 02:18:45,920
within the community and still is changing.

1697
02:18:45,920 --> 02:18:54,080
It has increased, or at least started this dialogue that something's going on beyond

1698
02:18:54,080 --> 02:19:00,440
just the mental health aspects of the changes that we're seeing in these operators.

1699
02:19:00,440 --> 02:19:07,600
And you know, I think there's also an acknowledgement and a realization that it's just not in the

1700
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:14,200
special ops community where we've lost too many special operators to conditions that

1701
02:19:14,200 --> 02:19:18,560
literally overlay the story I've just told you about Ryan.

1702
02:19:18,560 --> 02:19:21,280
This is Ryan's story is not a one-off.

1703
02:19:21,280 --> 02:19:29,440
It is exactly an exemplar of too many, way too many losses that we've experienced as

1704
02:19:29,440 --> 02:19:33,760
recently as yesterday in our special ops community.

1705
02:19:33,760 --> 02:19:39,320
And that's not to mention our conventional community, which has fought equally as hard

1706
02:19:39,320 --> 02:19:45,760
in these conflicts and have experienced challenges that, you know, many of your listeners probably,

1707
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:47,520
you know, have experienced.

1708
02:19:47,520 --> 02:19:50,320
These invisible wounds are not trivial.

1709
02:19:50,320 --> 02:19:57,480
The you know, so we need to research it.

1710
02:19:57,480 --> 02:19:59,600
We need to understand what's going on.

1711
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:07,000
And when I go to the Pentagon and I talk about this, I'm very quick to point out that whatever

1712
02:20:07,000 --> 02:20:15,320
solutions we come up with, it cannot affect or in any way degrade our operational effectiveness

1713
02:20:15,320 --> 02:20:17,240
or our lethality on the battlefield.

1714
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:24,680
Just like it can't, you know, as we crosswalk a lot of these exposures and similar situations

1715
02:20:24,680 --> 02:20:32,320
to our law enforcement and fire rescue community, we still have a job to do.

1716
02:20:32,320 --> 02:20:35,520
We still have to get after it.

1717
02:20:35,520 --> 02:20:43,640
But why are we not embracing the science that will help inform on what's going on here and

1718
02:20:43,640 --> 02:20:51,840
support the decisions that will buy down the risk on the front end, increase the effectiveness

1719
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:58,440
of our monitoring programs, you know, create the diagnostics where we can see this in the

1720
02:20:58,440 --> 02:21:06,400
living person, because right now our current diagnostics cannot see down to the resolution

1721
02:21:06,400 --> 02:21:09,360
where these injuries exist.

1722
02:21:09,360 --> 02:21:12,920
And you know how it is, you know, within our current medical enterprise.

1723
02:21:12,920 --> 02:21:18,880
If you can't see it on imaging or through a blood marker, it doesn't exist.

1724
02:21:18,880 --> 02:21:23,640
So by virtue, it's going to default towards a mental health diagnosis.

1725
02:21:23,640 --> 02:21:29,560
And one of the reasons it defaults almost completely towards a mental health diagnosis

1726
02:21:29,560 --> 02:21:35,040
is because that's where the reimbursement codes exists.

1727
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:37,320
The ICD-10 codes.

1728
02:21:37,320 --> 02:21:42,000
There's only one right now that exists for TBI, and that's for like a major TBI where

1729
02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:45,800
you got brain matter and everything else leaking out of the head.

1730
02:21:45,800 --> 02:21:51,680
But this subconcussive exposures, you know, whether it's repeated, you know, hits to the

1731
02:21:51,680 --> 02:21:57,560
head that you get from playing football, which you've heard profile, you know, with the chronic

1732
02:21:57,560 --> 02:22:04,480
traumatic encephalopathy, the CTE, or it's this unique pattern of injury related to blast

1733
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:06,480
exposure, which is different.

1734
02:22:06,480 --> 02:22:10,000
And please, I need to double underline that for everybody.

1735
02:22:10,000 --> 02:22:12,960
It is different than CTE.

1736
02:22:12,960 --> 02:22:18,040
The blast exposure injury is a unique pattern of injury that goes all through the brain

1737
02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:28,080
as opposed to, you know, direct point blunt contact that occurs in football, martial arts,

1738
02:22:28,080 --> 02:22:30,400
you know, soccer.

1739
02:22:30,400 --> 02:22:35,320
So two distinctive patterns of injury, but they all, they both share the same challenge

1740
02:22:35,320 --> 02:22:38,420
that we can't see it in a living person right now.

1741
02:22:38,420 --> 02:22:41,160
We're getting close, but we still can't see it.

1742
02:22:41,160 --> 02:22:46,520
And we don't have a blood marker like we do with like heart attacks and other disease

1743
02:22:46,520 --> 02:22:50,840
processes to further qualify that something's going on.

1744
02:22:50,840 --> 02:22:55,540
So again, everything comes back to money at some point.

1745
02:22:55,540 --> 02:23:08,200
And without reimbursable code to look at subconcussive, you know, impacts or blast exposure, then,

1746
02:23:08,200 --> 02:23:12,480
you know, we're not going to see the investment in the research.

1747
02:23:12,480 --> 02:23:17,440
We're not going to see the investment in that and other treatment modalities that potentially

1748
02:23:17,440 --> 02:23:21,180
could be valuable in addressing this.

1749
02:23:21,180 --> 02:23:25,000
So we're operating very much in a gray zone right now.

1750
02:23:25,000 --> 02:23:30,840
And I'm hoping that some of the recent research that has come out is amplifying the need to,

1751
02:23:30,840 --> 02:23:36,760
you know, research these conditions further, peel back the onion, qualify the injury processes

1752
02:23:36,760 --> 02:23:42,080
that are going on here and get after this in a more appropriate way.

1753
02:23:42,080 --> 02:23:47,640
And you know, for your listeners that may be wrestling with some of these conditions,

1754
02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:51,720
I want them to understand, please don't lose hope.

1755
02:23:51,720 --> 02:23:56,480
There are people, you know, working very hard to try to advance the ball here.

1756
02:23:56,480 --> 02:24:03,100
Though in some cases, the bureaucracy is resisting us because it's the old Pandora's box syndrome.

1757
02:24:03,100 --> 02:24:08,120
They just, in many cases, don't want to open up the lid to this thing because they're afraid

1758
02:24:08,120 --> 02:24:10,120
what's going to fly out.

1759
02:24:10,120 --> 02:24:11,120
But we have to.

1760
02:24:11,120 --> 02:24:16,520
We have hundreds of thousands, not millions of folks that potentially could be affected

1761
02:24:16,520 --> 02:24:24,400
by these conditions within our military community, within our police fire and other like, you

1762
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:27,480
know, occupational exposures.

1763
02:24:27,480 --> 02:24:31,840
It's the only way we're going to deal with this is to get smart on it and we can figure

1764
02:24:31,840 --> 02:24:32,840
this out.

1765
02:24:32,840 --> 02:24:37,560
And it's not because we lack the intellectual capability or the capacity.

1766
02:24:37,560 --> 02:24:44,120
We just need the will, the will to come together, you know, work in an integrated way, holistic

1767
02:24:44,120 --> 02:24:48,920
approach and develop the precision treatment solutions that every one of these men and

1768
02:24:48,920 --> 02:24:53,040
women need and absolutely deserve.

1769
02:24:53,040 --> 02:24:54,040
Absolutely.

1770
02:24:54,040 --> 02:24:57,960
Well, firstly, I mean, again, thank you for sharing my story.

1771
02:24:57,960 --> 02:25:01,640
And it's so sad because it does mirror so many other ones I've heard.

1772
02:25:01,640 --> 02:25:06,640
Sarah Wilkinson was on here talking about her husband, Chad, and Jamie Metcalfe was

1773
02:25:06,640 --> 02:25:07,640
talking about David.

1774
02:25:07,640 --> 02:25:08,640
And it's the same thing.

1775
02:25:08,640 --> 02:25:09,640
My brain is broken.

1776
02:25:09,640 --> 02:25:14,880
You know, I know certainly Chad, you know, did complete suicide the same way so they

1777
02:25:14,880 --> 02:25:16,160
could study his as well.

1778
02:25:16,160 --> 02:25:20,440
And over and over again, you're finding this physiological damage that goes back to the

1779
02:25:20,440 --> 02:25:21,440
mis-wiring.

1780
02:25:21,440 --> 02:25:25,520
I mean, you can literally see, you know, in these imagery, you know, post-mortem, sadly,

1781
02:25:25,520 --> 02:25:26,840
that, yeah, oh, oh, now we get it.

1782
02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:28,280
Now there was.

1783
02:25:28,280 --> 02:25:30,120
You talked about the hormonal disruption.

1784
02:25:30,120 --> 02:25:35,760
I think that even on a lesser case, this is a massive problem in military and first responders,

1785
02:25:35,760 --> 02:25:40,360
especially the fire service with such horrendous shifts and mandatory overtime that we're seeing

1786
02:25:40,360 --> 02:25:42,160
at the moment.

1787
02:25:42,160 --> 02:25:50,560
What were you, if anything, kind of seeing as far as Ryan's journey and treatment with

1788
02:25:50,560 --> 02:25:52,560
the testosterone and that kind of thing?

1789
02:25:52,560 --> 02:25:57,120
Because that alone, you know, with some of these men and women can help them turn the

1790
02:25:57,120 --> 02:26:01,760
corner if they discover that their testosterone is completely in the toilet, whether it's

1791
02:26:01,760 --> 02:26:08,920
because of seed deprivation or micro traumas or more often than not, a combination of both.

1792
02:26:08,920 --> 02:26:10,920
You would think.

1793
02:26:10,920 --> 02:26:13,600
You would think.

1794
02:26:13,600 --> 02:26:21,480
But you know, the military bureaucracy has in many ways ignored that.

1795
02:26:21,480 --> 02:26:26,560
You know, many of these operators are coming back, as you point out, with low testosterone

1796
02:26:26,560 --> 02:26:35,120
and high cortisol levels and other hormonal shifts and neurochemical shifts that are all

1797
02:26:35,120 --> 02:26:44,440
tied to the quality of sleep, your cognitive functions.

1798
02:26:44,440 --> 02:26:53,000
As I said, finding that homeostasis, that balance in the body, as long as we ignore

1799
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:59,440
this because, you know, unfortunately, this whole discussion about hormones is being contaminated

1800
02:26:59,440 --> 02:27:11,400
by the behaviors that we've witnessed where many of these folks go to street star lights

1801
02:27:11,400 --> 02:27:17,600
to try to fill the gaps.

1802
02:27:17,600 --> 02:27:23,760
They're in the deployed combat environment and they, like I said, it goes back to the

1803
02:27:23,760 --> 02:27:26,760
team dynamic.

1804
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:30,400
They want to be there 100% for their teammates.

1805
02:27:30,400 --> 02:27:36,400
They don't want to be operating at 70%.

1806
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:44,080
This is a high stress, physically impacting environment where many of them will take human

1807
02:27:44,080 --> 02:27:50,760
growth hormones and others, you know, compounds in order to stay in the game.

1808
02:27:50,760 --> 02:27:53,760
You know, they'll take painkillers.

1809
02:27:53,760 --> 02:28:01,120
Every one of these folks, military, police, fire, you know, they're all dealing with pain.

1810
02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:09,440
Every single day, they're dealing with pain, physical pain, you know, emotional pain, spiritual

1811
02:28:09,440 --> 02:28:10,440
pain.

1812
02:28:10,440 --> 02:28:16,480
We look at the shit that we see and then we at the end of our shift, we're supposed to

1813
02:28:16,480 --> 02:28:22,480
come back to, you know, walk through the front door like nothing ever happened.

1814
02:28:22,480 --> 02:28:23,480
You know, really?

1815
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:27,080
I mean, I don't care how freaking tough you are.

1816
02:28:27,080 --> 02:28:30,800
At some point, you know, that's going to catch up to you.

1817
02:28:30,800 --> 02:28:38,400
And especially if, you know, you have no way of letting that pressure off, no way of talking

1818
02:28:38,400 --> 02:28:47,680
about it because you operate in society or you're part of a society that doesn't understand.

1819
02:28:47,680 --> 02:28:55,560
So yeah, I mean, we need to kind of push the, you know, park the egos at the door, push

1820
02:28:55,560 --> 02:29:00,560
aside our prejudices and look at this for what it is.

1821
02:29:00,560 --> 02:29:06,120
And so if we have operators and when I say operators, I'm talking about our military

1822
02:29:06,120 --> 02:29:13,240
operators, our first responders who need supplemental hormone therapy.

1823
02:29:13,240 --> 02:29:20,080
Why not do it under controlled conditions instead of forcing them to go out to the street

1824
02:29:20,080 --> 02:29:28,560
to try to rebalance themselves without any guidance or level of competent monitoring?

1825
02:29:28,560 --> 02:29:34,640
Because you know, I don't care what drug you take, it's going to have a consequence.

1826
02:29:34,640 --> 02:29:37,680
You know, nothing's clean.

1827
02:29:37,680 --> 02:29:45,240
So and I'm not, you know, against pharmaceuticals, but you know, I also believe that there's

1828
02:29:45,240 --> 02:29:51,120
a responsible use of them in a positive way that can help.

1829
02:29:51,120 --> 02:29:58,440
But then on the other hand, a lot of the pharmaceuticals that we've seen, you know, employed are just

1830
02:29:58,440 --> 02:30:04,000
a quick fix to deal with symptoms and don't go to after the root cause.

1831
02:30:04,000 --> 02:30:05,000
Absolutely.

1832
02:30:05,000 --> 02:30:09,760
Well, just speaking of the hormone replacement and supplementation side, there's an incredible

1833
02:30:09,760 --> 02:30:14,080
company out there called Transcend who actually hunted down like a dog.

1834
02:30:14,080 --> 02:30:16,520
And they're one of the sponsors of the show now.

1835
02:30:16,520 --> 02:30:20,560
And the reason being their military owned or veteran owned, excuse me.

1836
02:30:20,560 --> 02:30:27,480
And I've seen them donate so much freaking money to nonprofits and even 7X with Ryan

1837
02:30:27,480 --> 02:30:29,320
Parrott and we went around the world.

1838
02:30:29,320 --> 02:30:32,080
They were a big supporter of that.

1839
02:30:32,080 --> 02:30:36,880
But they do an incredible deep, deep dive blood test.

1840
02:30:36,880 --> 02:30:41,400
They have everything from TRT through to just simple peptides, you know, so you're boosting

1841
02:30:41,400 --> 02:30:45,560
your body's ability, which I think is so pertinent for first responders because a lot of these

1842
02:30:45,560 --> 02:30:47,280
young men and women don't need testosterone.

1843
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:50,960
They really need to sleep, exercise and good nutrition.

1844
02:30:50,960 --> 02:30:54,240
But if they're not able to do that, this is a great way of helping their body make it

1845
02:30:54,240 --> 02:31:00,240
without becoming a complete, you know, dependent on exogenous testosterone.

1846
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:04,600
So for people listening, if you are looking for someone like that, Transcend is an amazing

1847
02:31:04,600 --> 02:31:05,600
company.

1848
02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:12,640
They even have a nonprofit, the Transcend Foundation that does put through veterans, military members

1849
02:31:12,640 --> 02:31:16,240
and first responders through and they help them with supplying them.

1850
02:31:16,240 --> 02:31:21,440
They'll actually some of my friends get the treatment from a sponsored point of view.

1851
02:31:21,440 --> 02:31:22,680
They don't have to pay themselves.

1852
02:31:22,680 --> 02:31:26,480
So there are some great places out there to get it.

1853
02:31:26,480 --> 02:31:30,800
It's just a shame that the first responder professions or the military organizations

1854
02:31:30,800 --> 02:31:36,720
aren't the one that are actually supporting their people and, you know, not just allowing,

1855
02:31:36,720 --> 02:31:41,840
but empowering them with the knowledge that, yeah, you can address your hormones to get

1856
02:31:41,840 --> 02:31:47,040
to that optimal level, which is not only going to affect you, your ability to perform as

1857
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:52,000
a firefighter or a police officer or a, you know, a SEAL, but also with your mental health

1858
02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:54,440
and the sleep and your relationships and everything else.

1859
02:31:54,440 --> 02:31:59,480
So there is an alternative to these fricking gym locker, you know, roids that people were

1860
02:31:59,480 --> 02:32:00,480
using before.

1861
02:32:00,480 --> 02:32:01,480
Yeah.

1862
02:32:01,480 --> 02:32:09,120
And it's all interconnected, I think is what we're saying is that, you know, again, this

1863
02:32:09,120 --> 02:32:17,280
is where I think that, you know, we can turn this is as, as, as we, you know, you know,

1864
02:32:17,280 --> 02:32:26,000
encourage good quality research and science to inform us, then we can make better decisions

1865
02:32:26,000 --> 02:32:27,000
all the way around.

1866
02:32:27,000 --> 02:32:32,480
And yeah, this doesn't mean you can't just stop into it, you know, a fast food, you know,

1867
02:32:32,480 --> 02:32:34,320
and, you know, pick up something on the fly.

1868
02:32:34,320 --> 02:32:40,160
I mean, we all do or, you know, go out on the, you know, occasional weekend and, you

1869
02:32:40,160 --> 02:32:43,320
know, have, you know, a couple pops.

1870
02:32:43,320 --> 02:32:45,000
I mean, I don't have that problem.

1871
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:49,280
They call me three beer, drink one, spill one, give one away and I'm good for the night.

1872
02:32:49,280 --> 02:32:51,520
But I think we're similar.

1873
02:32:51,520 --> 02:32:55,040
But yeah, yeah.

1874
02:32:55,040 --> 02:33:01,200
But you know, there is and you know, what qualifies this is when you talk to somebody

1875
02:33:01,200 --> 02:33:07,920
that has kind of come out of a bad place and they've been able to kind of make the shift

1876
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:12,640
and they're eating better, they're getting better quality of sleep.

1877
02:33:12,640 --> 02:33:14,600
They are exercising.

1878
02:33:14,600 --> 02:33:16,720
It's amazing what the exercise can do for you.

1879
02:33:16,720 --> 02:33:21,320
And it doesn't need I mean, it doesn't mean you got to go into, you know, a freaking high

1880
02:33:21,320 --> 02:33:31,160
end gym and, you know, with the latest, you know, spandex tire and, you know, pump, you

1881
02:33:31,160 --> 02:33:33,840
know, thousands of pounds of, you know, weight.

1882
02:33:33,840 --> 02:33:39,560
I mean, the exercise we're talking about, you know, literally can be done with walking,

1883
02:33:39,560 --> 02:33:43,480
swimming, you know, just some stretching exercises and so forth.

1884
02:33:43,480 --> 02:33:48,760
But the basics and how much better people feel when they start engaging into a regular

1885
02:33:48,760 --> 02:33:55,240
program like that is, you know, you just hear, you know, the positive reflections time and

1886
02:33:55,240 --> 02:33:56,240
time again.

1887
02:33:56,240 --> 02:33:59,480
So but it's hard at times to get started.

1888
02:33:59,480 --> 02:34:06,160
And I think that one of the best ways to kind of cross that bridge is partner up with people.

1889
02:34:06,160 --> 02:34:11,360
There's nothing like, you know, being part of a group that can hold you accountable for

1890
02:34:11,360 --> 02:34:14,600
getting out there every day and doing something.

1891
02:34:14,600 --> 02:34:21,520
So, you know, if you're one of those folks and it's not a negative statement that, you

1892
02:34:21,520 --> 02:34:28,840
know, it's hard to kind of get yourself up and out to do your own thing, then, you know,

1893
02:34:28,840 --> 02:34:33,960
join a group become it doesn't need to be a big group, but just enough that, you know,

1894
02:34:33,960 --> 02:34:38,080
you're poking each other in the chest saying, hey, hey, you know, you're five minutes late.

1895
02:34:38,080 --> 02:34:42,600
You're supposed to start, you know, you know, we're we're going to go and, you know, do

1896
02:34:42,600 --> 02:34:43,600
this.

1897
02:34:43,600 --> 02:34:44,600
We're going to go do that.

1898
02:34:44,600 --> 02:34:51,720
And and I don't know anybody that after they've had a good workout of some sort doesn't feel

1899
02:34:51,720 --> 02:34:52,720
better.

1900
02:34:52,720 --> 02:34:55,040
Yeah, it kind of sucks why you're doing it.

1901
02:34:55,040 --> 02:34:57,320
I mean, it's supposed to.

1902
02:34:57,320 --> 02:34:59,040
I mean, that's the point.

1903
02:34:59,040 --> 02:35:01,080
Yeah, it's supposed to.

1904
02:35:01,080 --> 02:35:06,200
But but, you know, you're conditioning your body to endure those stresses and and your

1905
02:35:06,200 --> 02:35:08,920
body will reward you with feeling better.

1906
02:35:08,920 --> 02:35:09,920
Absolutely.

1907
02:35:09,920 --> 02:35:14,200
Well, we've been talking for two and a half hours, so I want to be mindful of the time

1908
02:35:14,200 --> 02:35:18,600
and I've actually stomach I've been hearing on the other side.

1909
02:35:18,600 --> 02:35:23,160
But I do want to just make sure there's anything else you want to impart to the audience before

1910
02:35:23,160 --> 02:35:25,360
we close this out.

1911
02:35:25,360 --> 02:35:35,680
Yeah, I mean, you know, Ryan's here with me as we're talking, you know, he, you know,

1912
02:35:35,680 --> 02:35:39,600
he's constantly poking me saying, you know, make sure you say this, make sure you say

1913
02:35:39,600 --> 02:35:47,480
that, you know, you know, so I a lot of what I'm saying is actually him speaking through

1914
02:35:47,480 --> 02:35:48,480
me.

1915
02:35:48,480 --> 02:35:51,560
You know, he was all about his boys.

1916
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:56,160
He loved being a seal, loved deploying.

1917
02:35:56,160 --> 02:36:00,800
You know, this wasn't about failure or weakness.

1918
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:06,520
But I do think that it's a real world condition that we need to get on top of.

1919
02:36:06,520 --> 02:36:10,200
It potentially is a national security threat to our force.

1920
02:36:10,200 --> 02:36:17,000
You know, as we are growing more and more into a modern warfare construct, you know,

1921
02:36:17,000 --> 02:36:22,040
we need to prepare our men and women to be able, you know, to have the real resiliency

1922
02:36:22,040 --> 02:36:28,680
and the endurance to operate in these different environments, whether it's overseas in a conflict

1923
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:31,440
zone or it's here domestically.

1924
02:36:31,440 --> 02:36:34,080
This isn't going away.

1925
02:36:34,080 --> 02:36:43,640
I just hope that our society doesn't lose sight of, you know, where we've been and

1926
02:36:43,640 --> 02:36:47,920
we keep an eye on where we need to go.

1927
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:50,760
And it isn't always going to be pretty.

1928
02:36:50,760 --> 02:36:57,240
And you know, it's it's I think that almost every one of these folks that we've been talking

1929
02:36:57,240 --> 02:37:07,520
about, you know, deep down wouldn't trade away, you know, their experiences as painful

1930
02:37:07,520 --> 02:37:08,520
as they've been.

1931
02:37:08,520 --> 02:37:11,840
You know, they loved doing what they're doing.

1932
02:37:11,840 --> 02:37:17,680
They loved doing what they did or doing what they're doing now.

1933
02:37:17,680 --> 02:37:18,680
You know, it gives them purpose.

1934
02:37:18,680 --> 02:37:22,000
It gives them pride.

1935
02:37:22,000 --> 02:37:29,640
And this this nation needs to to, you know, be, you know, respectful of that.

1936
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:32,960
You know, tomorrow is July 4th.

1937
02:37:32,960 --> 02:37:41,680
And you know, this red, white and blue flag that I have behind me, you know, represents

1938
02:37:41,680 --> 02:37:44,160
so much for this nation.

1939
02:37:44,160 --> 02:37:49,040
And as we have these debates that go on in our society about different kind of flags

1940
02:37:49,040 --> 02:37:55,560
that are being hung around our communities now and so forth and different signs and different,

1941
02:37:55,560 --> 02:38:05,440
you know, behaviors and conditions, none of that would be possible without this flag.

1942
02:38:05,440 --> 02:38:11,440
Because if you've had the experience to travel to other places around the world, you quickly

1943
02:38:11,440 --> 02:38:20,160
understand that not everyone has has the freedoms and the level of security that we enjoy in

1944
02:38:20,160 --> 02:38:21,160
this nation.

1945
02:38:21,160 --> 02:38:23,440
And we can't forget that.

1946
02:38:23,440 --> 02:38:30,280
And hopefully we never have to experience a condition where, you know, we have lost

1947
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:31,280
that.

1948
02:38:31,280 --> 02:38:34,400
I want to thank everybody for their time.

1949
02:38:34,400 --> 02:38:36,960
James, great conversation.

1950
02:38:36,960 --> 02:38:44,520
I'm glad to come back at some point if if worthy, but just for everyone out there that,

1951
02:38:44,520 --> 02:38:46,520
hey, we're still working on this.

1952
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:47,520
We're not giving up.

1953
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:49,440
We're going to take this into the end zone.

1954
02:38:49,440 --> 02:38:50,840
We just need your help.

1955
02:38:50,840 --> 02:39:07,080
So enjoy your July 4th and happy birthday, America.