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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show veteran LAPD police officer and litigation attorney, Greg Yakubian.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from Greg's journey into law enforcement,

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the Rampart scandal, the LA riots, his journey into law, fighting for first responders whose

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careers were threatened by vaccine mandates, cowardice in leadership, government overreach

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and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredibly important conversation, as I say every week, please

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just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 950 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you, Greg Yakubian.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Greg, I want to start by saying thank you so, so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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I'm honored.

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I'm honored by the request.

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Thank you.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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So I'm actually in beautiful Bullhead City, Arizona, and I'm taking care of some personal

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business with my my daughter.

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But that's that's where I'm at today.

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Brilliant.

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Well, I would love to start the very beginning of your personal journey.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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Sure.

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So I was born in Queens, New York, and I was actually the first one born in this country.

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My parents and actually, I should say my two older sisters were born in Lebanon and my

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parents, their parents fled the pogroms in in Eintap.

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And this is, you know, almost a century ago, but in any event, they were one was raised

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in Damascus.

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And my other parent, my mother was was born and raised or at least early part of her life

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in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

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They later met in Lebanon, which is I mentioned is where my sisters were born after my parents

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married.

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I was born here.

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I have one younger brother, one younger sister, and I deeply love the United States.

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My father traveled around quite a bit and he didn't just stumble into the United States.

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He came here intentionally because he saw the tremendous opportunities because of the

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wisdom of the founders of this great country.

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And he is very, very right.

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Very smart man.

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I deeply respect him and miss him very much.

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But he he saw United States as being the place that opportunities were bound, you know, for

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one of the big reasons is that there's a recognition of natural rights.

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They're God given.

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People play by the rules as they should.

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And that's that's that's why he came to America.

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And he was right.

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I love all of these immigration stories because I mean, this is a culture, you know, a nation

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built on immigration.

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And again, obviously, you know, ultimately, we first immigrated into the U.S. and the

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Native Americans already here.

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But even then, if you go far enough back, that goes to Mongolia.

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You know, we are a very nomadic species as a whole.

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But this I think there's there's such a sad kind of narrative about immigration, the illegal

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immigrants and the borders and so you ever kind of hear.

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But there's so much richness to the tapestry that makes up the U.S.

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So what were some of the stories about the countries that your parents were born in and

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then Lebanon?

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And then how did that contrast?

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What was their immigration story when they got to the U.S.?

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Sure.

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Boy, that let me unpack that.

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That's a fabulous question.

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My I did.

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Fortunately, I think I'd given foresight, but I did have the opportunity to actually

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interview my both my parents, actually not too long before my father actually passed

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away.

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But I actually obtained this information.

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It's probably been about 20 some odd years, but I do.

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I do remember most of this.

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My father again, both my parents' families were in a town which is now in Turkey.

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But many Armenians would call that Western Armenia.

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But I'm tough.

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And when when their parents fled, my father was mentioned that he was born in Damascus.

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He was reared actually in a French Catholic boarding school in Lebanon.

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And once he grew up and he became involved in clothing industry, designing, and he traveled

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around quite a bit.

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He was in Iran in the Ivory Coast and just traveled around quite a bit looking for opportunities

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to develop his his clothing design business.

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And as I mentioned, he met my mother.

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My mother, her parents, they they fled to, as I mentioned, Ethiopia, but they came to

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Lebanon when she was still relatively young.

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And she also went to a wasn't a boarding school, but it was a school where she had quite a

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bit of influence from the from the Catholic tradition.

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In any event, she spent most of her early adult life there, met my father, they were

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married and my father still traveled around quite a bit.

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But he actually came to the United States, leaving my mother and my two older sisters

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with some of his other family in Lebanon.

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But he came in 1956.

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So there's about a two year gap, which was very common for for families.

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I understand the time where one individual usually would be the the the the father, the

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husband would would go to the the country where they're anticipating making the move

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to.

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And that's what my dad did.

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And he came here to kind of get the the nest settled, so to speak, get a job, try and find

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housing.

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He made connections with some relatives we already had here in upstate New York, which

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people we still keep in contact with, by the way.

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And then once he got things settled in, then he brought my mom and my two sisters and actually

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his brother over.

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And what's interesting, James, is my dad didn't just think about himself.

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He actually was thinking about all the other folks that were in places that just didn't

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have the same opportunity.

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So we were in New York for about three years.

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Again, I was born there, but we came out to the San Fernando Valley in California in January

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of 62.

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I still remember this, by the way, pulling up to the house, the there on Elmer Avenue

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in North Hollywood.

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But once we got settled into that house, the house was built, I want to say, in the early

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1900s, so it was old even then.

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But very frequently, my brother and I had bunk beds, and very frequently it would be

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like, hey, Greg, you're going to have to sleep on the couch because we got uncle so-and-so.

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My dad was sponsoring people, and that happened a lot.

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So his journey didn't end with just him getting settled in.

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He actually facilitated legal immigration for several folks and many, many family members

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we still keep in contact with, many of whom now passed on.

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But that's kind of the quick overview.

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Beautiful.

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I think it's just important to hear so many stories.

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And sadly, obviously, we're hearing tension now with Lebanon, if I've got that right.

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You hear people that came from Afghanistan and all these different places.

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And in the 70s, it was almost no different than London or Paris.

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And now we see a lot of these places reduced to rubble, or there's extremism, or whatever

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it is.

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And I think educating us all on how some of these nations used to be, some of the horrors

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of people fled 50, 100 years ago, these lessons of history that some of us are just completely

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oblivious to.

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Yep.

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Well, again, according to Jorge Santanaia, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat

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it.

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It's been characterized other ways, but yeah, it's unfortunate.

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So I lived in Burbank for about a year and a half when I worked for Anaheim Fire.

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So I remember North Hollywood, but it was probably a very different North Hollywood

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than you grew up in.

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So that area obviously is known for crime and certain pockets.

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What was the environment that you grew up in?

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So yeah, Burbank, I have actually friends from Burbank.

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Burbank was actually kind of like a little mini Hollywood.

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I'm sure you remember, in fact, well, anyhow, there were some very high profile studios

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there in the Burbank area.

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But in any event, yeah, North Hollywood in the early 60s, it was quaint.

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I actually had a number of newspaper routes.

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I mean, I'd get up in the morning and then later my brother joined me on this business

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adventure of throwing newspapers.

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But it was nice.

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It was relatively safe.

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And my dad bought another home, again, kind of on the outskirts, very edge of North Hollywood.

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And for those of you who are familiar with the Los Angeles area, they have these different

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locations or these different areas that are named.

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But there's no separate boundary.

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They don't have a separate city council and all that.

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But they're all part of the city of Los Angeles.

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But you have North Hollywood, you have Van Nuys, they have these different districts,

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if you will.

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So North Hollywood was OK.

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It was good.

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The homes were very old.

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And then we moved to a home, I think I was about 16 that summer because I was supposed

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to go to North Hollywood High School and I ended up going to Grant High School.

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And Grant, which was actually just over the, and I'll use the air quotes, border in Van

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Nuys, was considered to be a premium school at the time.

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And it was, again, very, I got really, really good education, or at least I like to think

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I did.

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So I remember many of my teachers.

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And it was a really positive, I think, environment growing up.

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Over the years, I think, I don't know if I mentioned yet my introduction into law enforcement.

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I did work as a police officer in the Los Angeles area.

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And I remember going back to the street that I grew up on many years later and finding

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out that there was a street gang actually named after Elmer Avenue, which was disappointing

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to see that.

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And when you think about gang members, they're just seeking to fill a void in their lives.

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They're looking to take care of each other and protecting themselves from some of the

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problems that are around them.

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And I understand that.

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But sadly, it's a very, it's an unhealthy familial relationship that gets developed

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in that culture, I think, because they end up being self-destructive.

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But disappointed to see that.

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In North Hollywood overall, because when I got married, I was married there in North

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Hollywood.

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We lived there for about four years, in fact, up until 1985, until we finally moved out

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to a different county, adjacent.

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And I still drive through the area.

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But it's just sad to see it go the way that it has.

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And it's just continuing to degrade with the unchecked homelessness and unchecked crime.

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And it's unfortunate.

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I'm going to jump straight into a topic, even though we're not there chronologically yet.

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But I think it's just so interesting hearing the perspective, especially from the law enforcement

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community, the group of men and women who have been told for their entire career, you

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must enforce these rules.

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And obviously, we're going to get to good rules and bad rules in a minute.

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But as my career progressed, I started seeing the epic failure of drug prohibition with

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my own eyes, the homelessness, the addiction, the gang membership, obviously the overdoses.

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And I'm not talking about arresting dealers, I'm not talking arresting smugglers, but addicts

235
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:15,800
specifically, and how that empowers the underworld by demonizing the drugs that they need.

236
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,680
But my perspective, obviously, is that is a huge common denominator of a lot of the

237
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crime that we've seen, a lot of the devolution of the streets of America.

238
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,840
That being said, that's James Gearing's opinion.

239
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:35,580
What has been your perspective of why a safe neighborhood back in the 60s has become this

240
00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:38,600
gang-ridden culture in the 2000s?

241
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,760
Yeah, I do think it's a shift.

242
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,880
And I think it starts at a deeper level, a more spiritual level.

243
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:53,960
People begin to just think about their own, just kind of getting through the day, and

244
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,520
they don't really think about the long-term repercussions.

245
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,160
I mentioned my father, he was always kind of trying to get the big picture view of things

246
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,400
and trying to help others.

247
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:12,200
And this issue with the use of drugs, and I'm also going to include alcohol in there,

248
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,840
I know that that might not be a very popular opinion, but I'm going to put it in there.

249
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:24,920
The reality is, personally, I take what I think would be characterized properly as a

250
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,640
libertarian view of things.

251
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,760
I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want to do with their bodies, and that's

252
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,840
between them and God, so long as it's not impacting others.

253
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:43,480
The reality is, when you take that last part, that caveat, using alcohol drugs, it does

254
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:44,760
impact others.

255
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:52,480
Now, I still think that ultimately we are accountable to God directly.

256
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,080
But society does have an interest in regulating these issues.

257
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,880
I mean, there's this fiction that gets created.

258
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:09,240
Once again, just pick on alcohol for just a minute, where you can drink, consume alcohol,

259
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,760
or marijuana now is becoming a big thing, cannabis or whatever, so long as you don't

260
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,240
become intoxicated is the term.

261
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:24,640
But the reality is, it does begin to affect your day-to-day functioning.

262
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,840
And that's, to answer your question, that's what is the beginning of the devolution or

263
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,200
the degradation of these neighborhoods.

264
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:41,240
People just start doing whatever they need to do, either alcohol or drugs or spray cans,

265
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,920
whatever they're going to use to numb their brain, and then they start to not care.

266
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,200
And then you have this, well, you've got the government facilitating this.

267
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,480
Here, let me give you the needles.

268
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:57,520
Let me give you some money to get through the month, and just enough to keep that addiction

269
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,000
funded.

270
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,520
And then we start seeing the problems where, in fact, I just recently saw, I think it's

271
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:15,400
in London, some individual put a pup tent on this, it looks like some suburban home,

272
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,240
they're just tenting there, right there on the person's front line.

273
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,240
I don't know if you saw that.

274
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:21,240
Yeah.

275
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:29,160
And that's how bold people are becoming, because in the end, it's being facilitated, encouraged,

276
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,640
funded by those who are in power in government.

277
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:34,640
And this just can't go on.

278
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,080
I mean, the reality is, it just can't.

279
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,520
I think what I've seen, I went to Portugal, my family moved there, and I sat with the

280
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,960
guy who spearheaded decriminalization of addiction, to be very specific, there.

281
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,000
And what they did is they took all the resources, or a lot of the resources from the quote unquote

282
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,240
war on drugs.

283
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,320
And as a nation, they kind of looked and go, look, this just isn't working.

284
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,560
And it's funny because Portugal is kind of looked down upon by parts of Europe, but actually

285
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,280
they're very progressive and very community based.

286
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:11,040
And so they took that money and they put it into solving why people turn to drugs in the

287
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,040
first place.

288
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,360
And that, as you said, absolutely includes alcohol too.

289
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,080
So how does that void create it?

290
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,040
And so they created addiction counseling and mental health counseling and job creation

291
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,440
and all these incentives, housing, and they completely revolutionized their addiction

292
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:26,440
crisis.

293
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,920
And I think that this is the problem is that, like you said, if you piecemeal it, if you

294
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,000
just give out free needles, but you're not addressing why someone's turning that, why

295
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:41,320
is a eight year old boy going into a gang versus a police or fire explorer program,

296
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,480
that's a deeper issue.

297
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,680
And then to turn around and go, oh, well, it's broken homes.

298
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,320
But yeah, because we've got multi-generational drug use and alcoholism by this point.

299
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,960
So this is what I've seen through the career that I've had is that the war on drugs is

300
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,440
almost a hundred years old now since the thirties.

301
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,880
So clearly it's an epic failure and we need to do something different and get to the root

302
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,000
cause of what's making people turn to them in the first place.

303
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,000
Yeah.

304
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:14,160
And I think, again, even drilling down deeper into the, when you mentioned the root cause,

305
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:20,440
I think that the only thing that's going to, and I'll use the term fix, if that's even

306
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:26,000
the right word, it's going to correct the problem is at a very deep, very spiritual

307
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:34,400
level really, people who have no purpose in life, they have literally no connection with

308
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,200
regard to why they're here.

309
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,440
There's a catechism that's actually published.

310
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,120
It's very, very old talking about the chief end of man.

311
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:46,120
Why are we here?

312
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,960
Well, really ultimately to glorify and serve God.

313
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:57,640
And without that larger purpose, it just kind of trickles down and starts to cause the person

314
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,180
to fall apart with regard to their drive.

315
00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:07,080
So I think that, I agree completely that the war on drugs is a fiction.

316
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,080
It really is.

317
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:16,720
There's so much corruption, there's so much where you have people who are in control that

318
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:22,160
are playing both sides of the game to facilitate the problem.

319
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,200
And then of course, facilitating a problem creates a need for the fixtures, if you will.

320
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,840
Yeah, it is a fiction.

321
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,040
I don't think it's good that we just allow no enforcement.

322
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,120
We should be enforcing.

323
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:41,680
But the reality is the people who need help, I think first and foremost, they need to look

324
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,040
to something substantially larger than themselves.

325
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:51,080
And that's going to be only in the Lord getting saved, if you will, and recognizing that the

326
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,560
reason why they're here is God created them for a purpose.

327
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,880
They're here for a reason.

328
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,960
And they need to really turn to the Lord and get their lives squared away in that regard.

329
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,680
Then everything flows from that, I think.

330
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,680
Beautiful.

331
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,280
All right, well, getting back onto the career path then, when you were school age, obviously

332
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,400
you got into a very physical career.

333
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,960
What were you playing as far as sports and exercise?

334
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:16,960
So sports?

335
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,280
Well, let me go back a little further because this was not my plan.

336
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:29,480
The last thing in the world I ever thought that I would be would be a police lieutenant

337
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:38,560
having retired now and a police defense attorney, police and fire defense attorney.

338
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,040
Never would I have thought this is how my life would land up.

339
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,960
From my earliest memories, I only wanted to be a doctor.

340
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:55,480
And my sports was, I mean, I liked running and weightlifting and stuff like that.

341
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:01,720
But as far as sports, I did one year in high school, I played football with an individual.

342
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,920
I'm still friends with him, Joe.

343
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,720
He and I still keep in contact with each other.

344
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,720
But that was it for sports.

345
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,920
And I mean, I'd play tennis and stuff like that.

346
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,880
But I was very academic.

347
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,200
I was the kid that went to summer school every year.

348
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,760
Even once I satisfied requirements, I just took other classes.

349
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,320
In fact, I did take police role in government at Grant High School.

350
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,160
I still keep in contact with my high school teacher, by the way.

351
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,160
Really?

352
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,640
Yes, I do.

353
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,360
We text on occasion.

354
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:44,640
Once things worked out, the way I land up in law enforcement, you didn't ask specifically

355
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:45,640
that.

356
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,480
But once I went from high school to college, I wasn't playing any sports there in college.

357
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,880
I was, again, just pre-med is what I was.

358
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,400
But things unfolded a little.

359
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,200
It's a little complicated how things went the way they did.

360
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,120
But I landed up meeting my wife.

361
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,200
As I mentioned, we got married.

362
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:15,840
But I went to law enforcement initially just as a temporary diversion because there were

363
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:16,840
benefits.

364
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,840
And I was only going to stay with the department a couple, three years.

365
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:28,080
And we had one child at the time, my wife and I, and we had another one on the way.

366
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:34,920
So I came on the job really just temporarily thinking I was going to do a couple, three

367
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,080
years and then get back to wrap up college and then go to medical school.

368
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:49,080
But things didn't go that way because some personal health issues within my family.

369
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,440
And I ended up staying on the job.

370
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,640
I think it was God's will.

371
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,680
I don't think this was an accident.

372
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,600
I don't think anything happens by accident, by the way.

373
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,440
We do have free will.

374
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,120
But the sports thing was kind of a side thing.

375
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:11,120
I was really, like I said, pretty academic in my life.

376
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:17,120
Which parts of LA did you find yourself assigned once you were in uniform?

377
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:18,120
Started my career.

378
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:22,480
Well, obviously I went through the academy when there was just the one academy facility.

379
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,200
Now there are three facilities.

380
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,720
When I came out, I was initially assigned to West Valley, which I was familiar with

381
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,840
because I grew up in the San Fernando Valley.

382
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:41,080
Went to Hollywood and I was actually the first sworn certified bilingual Armenian speaker

383
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,960
with the Los Angeles Police Department.

384
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,720
And no surprise, I was brought to Hollywood to help facilitate investigations because

385
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,400
of the Armenian population in that area.

386
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,680
I went to, was loaned to training division for a period of time.

387
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,680
I worked Hollywood vice.

388
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,000
There was a police officer and later as a sergeant.

389
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,480
I did work majors.

390
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,480
You mentioned narcotics.

391
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520
I worked majors for a period of time.

392
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,240
And then I went to metropolitan division.

393
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,560
I deeply, deeply loved that job.

394
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,480
Supervisors there, some I still keep in contact with as well.

395
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,360
But then I went from there, I went to anti-terrorist division.

396
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:28,440
I was back in the academy for a period of time.

397
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,800
And then I did work back in the valley as a detective, working Van Nuys Homicide.

398
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,900
Went back to Hollywood as a sergeant.

399
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:42,920
From there I came back to West Valley as a sergeant off of probation.

400
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:50,880
I was actually the last West Valley crash sergeant for those folks who remember crash

401
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,560
when they liquidated that unit, which was unfortunate the way that was handled.

402
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,600
You mentioned about leadership and the way those officers were treated.

403
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,000
It was really unfortunate.

404
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:07,400
I think that there are problems with certain units, that's just human nature.

405
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,280
That's unpacking that for a second.

406
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,320
That was the rampart scandal, wasn't it?

407
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:18,480
That was what got that whole deconstruction of that whole unit.

408
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:25,400
And of course, you have a couple of folks, which again was a matter of I think poor leadership

409
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,040
anyway.

410
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:34,120
I was brought in to essentially facilitate that transition.

411
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:39,680
And then they formed a new gang unit, which was for about a year or two.

412
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:45,960
And then they ultimately formed the GED configuration, which is still to this day the configuration

413
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,720
of the gang units.

414
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,240
What was the reason for the creation of the unit?

415
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,800
And again, if you get to Monday morning quarterback it now, what was done poorly?

416
00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:02,960
And then obviously what was the result of, as you mentioned, the actions of a few officers?

417
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,520
The cause, if you will, is nothing new.

418
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:13,080
Just a lack of oversight and leadership and really direction.

419
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:20,000
It's been said that modeling may not just be the best way to teach, and I'll use the

420
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,000
word lead.

421
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,080
It may be really the only way to lead.

422
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,640
And I think you have some, air quotes, leaders that are just simply not modeling the desired

423
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,840
behavior.

424
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,040
And then you also have to have the reality is, not just for crash, any unit.

425
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,280
I know crash got picked on, but the reality is there are a lot of other units that just

426
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,760
are very poorly supervised.

427
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,560
You just don't hear about these issues.

428
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,960
I do because the work I do in police defense, I hear about these issues and I'm typically

429
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,520
defending the officers.

430
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,880
But it's nothing new.

431
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:58,880
Sergeants aren't going out.

432
00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,880
They're not monitoring.

433
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,760
They're not correcting behavior when it starts to go off the rails.

434
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:14,080
And the reality is some people will blame the lack of the triage when people are coming

435
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,080
on the job.

436
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,080
And that may be a problem.

437
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,520
In other words, you have people who are in effect corrupt when they come into the department.

438
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,680
That's a problem.

439
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,960
But I don't think it's the problem.

440
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:35,360
I think the problem is a failure to recognize that the police department and fire department,

441
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:42,000
the public sector, it's comprised of human beings and human beings are fallible and they

442
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:49,080
can be corrupted and you just have to have supervision that's willing to correct the

443
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,120
behavior and actually also willing to toe the line.

444
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,160
The reality is you'll have command staff or supervisors that are actually doing kind of

445
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,800
the same conduct that the officers are doing.

446
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,240
They're just smarter about getting away with it, unfortunately.

447
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,240
Not all of them.

448
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:11,040
I have a lot of folks and friends that are at the command level that I deeply respect

449
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,480
and they're trying to do a very difficult job.

450
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:21,480
But what happened with crash is, just so happens you had a couple of very, very, very corrupted

451
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:29,520
individuals and thanks to the checks and balances at the property division, they picked up on

452
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,960
some of these issues.

453
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:37,200
And it's just unfortunate that the supervisors maybe weren't maybe on top of some of these

454
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,880
issues, could have maybe picked up on this sooner, but then the whole unit throughout

455
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:50,640
the city, all the units were blamed as if the units themselves were corrupt, which doesn't

456
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,640
make sense.

457
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,080
The people are corrupt, not the unit.

458
00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,640
Hitting on one more obviously very infamous event in LAPD and then we'll go to some positive

459
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,600
outcome career calls that you've had.

460
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,160
But when you look back now, not only with this law enforcement lens, with this legal

461
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,320
lens, Monday morning quarterbacking, what happened with the Rodney King incident?

462
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,720
What were the compounding factors that led to that?

463
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,960
So yeah, thank you.

464
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,120
Fascinating.

465
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:29,140
That whole issue with regard to the videotape and what I understand was that Holliday actually

466
00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:31,200
walked into Foothill division.

467
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,120
I didn't know you were going to ask me about this, but I'm going to have to scour back

468
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,120
through the files here and sort of find something.

469
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,120
Yeah, that's okay.

470
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,120
No, it's no problem.

471
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,680
I mean, that's a fair question.

472
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,160
Walked in with his VHS and for those of you who don't know VHS, there were these old very

473
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:54,440
large cassettes for magnetic recording of images, video images, and actually wanted

474
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,520
to turn it in at the desk there.

475
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:04,880
And at the time, what I was told or I understand through the rumor mill was that the folks

476
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,680
there said, they didn't want anything to do with it.

477
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,240
They basically thought it would just kind of go away.

478
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:23,800
But upon a close analysis, and I think I can say this objectively, what was being done

479
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:33,400
there as far as the officers that were involved using the PR24s, the side-handled batons,

480
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,760
they were doing what they were trained to do.

481
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:43,880
And I distinctly remember, in fact, when I went to the Academy myself in the mid-80s,

482
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:49,120
there were instructors that came in there and they testified at the first trial there

483
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,120
in Simi Valley.

484
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:56,440
Of course, they had to change the venue because of the problems with Los Angeles venue being

485
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,440
too biased.

486
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:03,240
But we were told, hey, they being the citizens don't want you choking people out because

487
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:11,160
of the time they just had transitioned away from using the carotid so-called chokeholds

488
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,680
that would cause incapacitation without breaking bones or whatnot by cutting off the blood

489
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,640
flow to the brain, not the trachea.

490
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,600
But they don't want you choking people out.

491
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,280
But by golly, they gave you these PR24s that can break bones.

492
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:38,640
And even at the time, again, I thought, well, I didn't have a whole lot of use of force.

493
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,400
But the bottom line is that was the instruction that was being given.

494
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:49,240
You basically just want to create space and move away.

495
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:53,640
And then if you have a person that's not compliant, push them away.

496
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,640
You draw your PR24.

497
00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:01,440
At the time, they changed the type of gas you're using.

498
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,520
But your options were relatively limited.

499
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:13,120
And what I saw in the video, and I distinctly remember this with regard to the analysis,

500
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,560
was that's kind of the way everybody was being trained.

501
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,080
And could things have been done better?

502
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,440
Yeah, absolutely.

503
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,600
But to act as if they were just beating this guy.

504
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:34,000
And I actually remember being after this video came out, this is interesting, James, I was

505
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,200
doing some training in another state, actually was in Arizona.

506
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,920
And I remember because of the false narrative that was being circulated, people were actually

507
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,960
saying things like Mr. King, Rodney King was handcuffed.

508
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:55,640
And yet all these several officers, like four or five of them with their PR24s just literally

509
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,880
beating this guy on the ground, which of course was not true.

510
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,520
And that's the kind of thing that really frustrates me is when you start having this hyperbole.

511
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,360
And this police officer was saying this, he was working in a different state.

512
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,720
And I was looking at him and saying, look, let's tear this apart rationally.

513
00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,600
First, what you're saying is not true.

514
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,860
He was not handcuffed.

515
00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:23,840
This is the way officer being trained.

516
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,720
Things could have certainly been done better, absolutely.

517
00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:35,120
And whether or not the supervisor that was there, Stacey Kuhn, could have handled things

518
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:41,160
differently, there's always, to use your word, James, money more than quarterback.

519
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,320
That's done to sharpen the sword, if you will, moving forward.

520
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:53,600
But then to your earlier point, where's the accountability within the organization for

521
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,520
how these officers are being trained?

522
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,240
Should I even say, well, you look at this issue with George Floyd.

523
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:09,200
There are questions now about the training that these officers were being provided with

524
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,100
that incident.

525
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:18,840
So I just think that there has to be, if we expect, or if we need change within the police

526
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:26,280
department, truly need corrective action, we need to look at the training materials,

527
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:31,400
how they're being instructed, what tools we're giving them, rather than immediately demonizing

528
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,440
the officers as if, oh, we found the cancer.

529
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Let's get rid of these three or four, five guys and gals, whoever they are.

530
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,800
Now we've dealt with the problem and we move on.

531
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:45,800
That's unfortunate.

532
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,200
But that's a way to treat people that are, I think, for the most part, trying to do a

533
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,520
job that society wants and actually needs.

534
00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,880
It's interesting when you talk about the chokeholds, which was prior to the nightsticks.

535
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,200
During my career, I trained in Florida.

536
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,160
And then when I went over to California for a few years to work for Anaheim, they are

537
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:12,280
extremely aggressive when it comes to roof operations and in a good way.

538
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:18,080
My whole probationary year, I constantly had to study building construction and strip down

539
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,800
saws and do all these different cuts at the academy week after week after week.

540
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,720
And so by the time you get out and you're well trained, you're like, oh, wow, this works

541
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:26,720
really well.

542
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:32,000
If I cut a big hole in the ceiling, everyone inside has got a much higher chance of surviving.

543
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,560
But then I go back to Florida and they're like, oh, no, no, we don't do this.

544
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,560
It's too dangerous here.

545
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,800
It's lightweight construction, which obviously it is everything in Florida.

546
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,840
In California, it's lightweight construction, including the walls.

547
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,240
So you realize that the standards were lower because of lack of training.

548
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:50,760
And when I've had this conversation with a few police officers recently that are also

549
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,760
in the jujitsu space, I ask them, why can't you choke people?

550
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,720
Because I know as someone who gets choked a lot in the gym, that is one of the quickest

551
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:02,440
ways to make someone comply.

552
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,080
And then even if they kind of black out for a second, if you've got someone who's going

553
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,120
for your gun or whatever it is, then that's a very, very valuable tool.

554
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:16,080
However, only in a well-trained set of hands, which then has the whole, where is that bar

555
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,080
set?

556
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,560
So what I've seen is some of the more effective techniques, whether it's in the fire service

557
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:27,160
or in law enforcement, are actually disregarded because it requires more money, more training

558
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,840
and a higher level of professionalism, even though actually it's a better technique.

559
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,120
Yeah, I would agree with that.

560
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:43,640
And the issue with the choke, again, a little bit of the history there, some of it, talking

561
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:52,440
about leadership again, that the fact that our chief at the time made some public comments,

562
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:59,520
I don't even want to repeat it, but Chief Gates, again, he made some public comments

563
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:08,760
about what was called a chokehold that didn't help facilitate a healthy discussion about

564
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,120
the issue.

565
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:19,440
So unfortunately, that particular technique was placed at a level and there is the continuum

566
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:25,600
analysis, which I'm sure you're familiar with with regard to the levels of force.

567
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:32,440
And that I think is an unfortunate way to analyze use of force when you look at the

568
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,840
Graham standard.

569
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:44,160
But yeah, to your point about training, if it was possible to train officers at a sufficient

570
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:51,240
level to where they apply a carotid properly without having it come across and become an

571
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:57,720
arm bar and crushing somebody's trachea, that would be good.

572
00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:58,720
There were problems.

573
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:04,640
I mean, I'm not going to ignore the reality that in some of my training officers, again,

574
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:09,880
in the 80s, we're talking about the days where if somebody was even mildly noncompliant,

575
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:15,080
you know, get what they would call a shoulder smash, just spin somebody around and put them

576
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,880
to sleep for a couple of seconds.

577
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,660
You know, and so there had to be a balance, but unfortunately, I think that lack of discretion

578
00:42:23,660 --> 00:42:31,620
along with I think the chief's comments kind of muddy the waters and really poisoned the

579
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:34,000
well for having a healthy discussion on the issue.

580
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:40,840
But if there's a way to come back to that, that would be healthy, I think, for society.

581
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,320
Do I think it's going to happen?

582
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,320
I don't know.

583
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,800
I mean, now you have companies that are coming up with these like the Ebola wrap and all

584
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,920
these other, you know, we have the Taser.

585
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:58,520
And I think that there's again, maybe some I'll call it a profit motive to keep some

586
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,320
of these other tools available.

587
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,680
I'm not saying they're not bad.

588
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,460
I'm not saying they're not good tools.

589
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:06,400
There may be an application for them.

590
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:14,960
But to your point, I 100% agree with you that if it was possible to revisit some of these

591
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:21,400
Archon arrest control, jujitsu techniques, you know, Gracie had a very strong influence

592
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,280
with the Los Angeles Police Department.

593
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,640
And there were some other folks, McTatter brothers, and, you know, they had influence

594
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,760
with different folks within the department.

595
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,000
But and that did actually change our techniques for a period of time.

596
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:44,360
We integrated a lot more of the jujitsu material.

597
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,800
But that specific technique is still again, the the crowd is still held at the lethal

598
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:57,040
force in in the the kind of the shorthand is if you could choke somebody out, you know,

599
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,400
you can shoot them is kind of the the shorthand way of looking at that, which I think is unfortunate.

600
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:03,400
Yeah, absolutely.

601
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,400
Yeah, I think it wasn't it George Ryan that connected us.

602
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:07,960
I've got that right.

603
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:08,960
Yes.

604
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:09,960
Yeah.

605
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,080
So obviously, I talked to George about all of his martial arts training and striking

606
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,080
and all that stuff, too.

607
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,080
So.

608
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,080
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant guy.

609
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,080
Yeah, he is he is an encyclopedia, literally.

610
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,080
Yeah, absolutely.

611
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:20,080
All right.

612
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,640
So we've talked about some of the, you know, arguably darker incidents within LAPD.

613
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,160
Let's go back to your career now.

614
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,080
When you reflect what was some of the the big career calls, the career successes during

615
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,280
your career in L.A.

616
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:42,400
Career successes was probably, I would have to say, first, you know, maintaining my my

617
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,040
family's, you know, the relationships and all that.

618
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,040
I think that's success.

619
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,040
I know.

620
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,560
But you're probably talking about stuff that I did while I was on the job.

621
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:58,320
I you know, I don't hold my identity out as being a again, a Los Angeles police officer

622
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,560
as much as I deeply, deeply love Los Angeles City and the department.

623
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:11,600
And I wouldn't change one thing about about my career as a whole.

624
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,800
There are some relationships I wish I would have I would have developed maybe more deeply.

625
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,600
And you know, I still try to maintain contact with folks from, you know, over the years.

626
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,400
And now people are, you know, they're passing away.

627
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,280
But I would say some of the most interesting things I probably did.

628
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,280
Metropolitan Division.

629
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:37,400
I still keep in contact with my partner of four years when I when I was there working

630
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,320
in that in that detail, working the homicide unit.

631
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:52,720
I learned just a tremendous amount of investigative techniques and skills from my D3 Steve Fisk.

632
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:58,680
Deeply respect him and partners that work there.

633
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:04,600
In working Hollywood Vice, you know, there are a lot of it was it was an interesting

634
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,440
I don't know about success, but it was a very interesting career.

635
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:13,640
But I would say the success would be just just having the diversity and experience working

636
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,880
with the department.

637
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:27,600
And I still remember my the Academy leader for our class, Chamberlain, actually, he said

638
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,420
this and I think I think it's true.

639
00:46:29,420 --> 00:46:31,240
It's not the equipment.

640
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:32,720
It's not, you know, the badge.

641
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:37,400
It's not always it's the people that really make the Los Angeles Police Department.

642
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,280
And I think that that's the case.

643
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,200
And I would say my success is just being able to get around to see really see the whole

644
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,200
city.

645
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,200
And I did.

646
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,200
And I still do, actually.

647
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,640
I'm still technically with the department as a reserve.

648
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,160
I love that you mentioned that keeping your family unit whole was the highlight of your

649
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,160
career.

650
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,360
I think that's a beautiful answer.

651
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:04,800
What was it when you reflect that kept you together, not just from from yourself, but

652
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,640
through your your partner and your children collectively when so many of us, our families

653
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,480
are fragmented through the career?

654
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,200
Oh, the Lord.

655
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,360
Yeah, it's Jesus.

656
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:17,360
That's that simple.

657
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:23,840
I have I still remember James, my one of my training officers who has since passed away.

658
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,960
Bob was his first name.

659
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,360
I'll just leave it at that.

660
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,520
And I liked him.

661
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,560
He was a funny guy.

662
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,760
He had back when we could have like he had a bull nose.

663
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,760
It was kind of a bull barrel on on his revolver.

664
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:40,760
But we're revolvers.

665
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:41,760
Those things.

666
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,840
It's got like a round thing with six holes in it.

667
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,960
Anyhow, I was driving around and I was on probation.

668
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,120
So you do what you're told.

669
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,280
You know, you can't keep your mouth shut and listen and watch and do what you're told.

670
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:57,880
So I was doing that.

671
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,340
And so he goes, hey, kid.

672
00:47:59,340 --> 00:48:00,340
So you married?

673
00:48:00,340 --> 00:48:01,340
Yeah, married.

674
00:48:01,340 --> 00:48:02,340
How long have you married?

675
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:03,340
Oh, three and a half, four years.

676
00:48:03,340 --> 00:48:04,920
OK, you'll be divorced five years.

677
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,400
You five years.

678
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,400
Right.

679
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:08,400
Yeah, exactly.

680
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:15,760
So, you know, my wife, it's been over 42 years now.

681
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,000
I don't know what I'd do without her.

682
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,400
I love her.

683
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,040
She's great.

684
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:25,400
She's literally God's gift to me and our kids.

685
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,200
My kids are all grown doing their own thing.

686
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:36,800
But yeah, I can't take any credit for that because, you know, working crazy, crazy, crazy

687
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,720
hours and then through the riots.

688
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:45,840
And she's she's been just a tremendous stabilizing influence.

689
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,360
And I attribute that only to the work.

690
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,360
Beautiful.

691
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,360
All right.

692
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,520
Well, then, so as you progress through your career, what was it that started steering

693
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,560
you into the world of law itself?

694
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,320
Yeah.

695
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,800
So that that's an interesting question there.

696
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:10,080
I always intended to get back to medical school, as I mentioned, until I had this there was

697
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:15,020
a kind of a personal medical issue that popped up in the family.

698
00:49:15,020 --> 00:49:19,840
But I wanted to do something, something else.

699
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,900
I just want to do something else academically, because, you know, to your question earlier

700
00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:26,480
about sports, I was really more of an academic kind of guy.

701
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,080
Not that I mean, I worked out and stuff.

702
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:34,280
I just wasn't other than that little stint in high school football.

703
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:41,760
So I was constantly chipping away at my classes, take, you know, going to college part time

704
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:42,760
for years.

705
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:52,320
In fact, I held myself out as like a 22 year, you know, college student on the side.

706
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:57,840
And in the I mentioned I work Van Nuys Homicide.

707
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:03,880
There was an individual there who was going to law school at the time, Harvey.

708
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,160
And we would have like, you know, water cooler chats about law school.

709
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,040
They kind of planted a seed.

710
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:15,280
Honestly, James, the last thing I ever thought I would even consider was law school.

711
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,040
So for two years, I kept thinking, OK, I'm wrapping up as I wrapping up my undergraduate

712
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,240
degrees and college, and I thought, well, now what do I do?

713
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,560
Medical school is not going to happen.

714
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,840
So I thought I talked to my wife and I said, what do you think about law school?

715
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:35,240
And she was thinking or she said, why would anyone want to be a lawyer?

716
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:36,960
And I said, yeah, you know, I agree with you.

717
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:37,960
Why?

718
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,720
You know, that's crazy, right?

719
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:45,160
But you know, let me let me think about this and maybe I'll just get the JD.

720
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,520
So that was about as much thought that went into it, James.

721
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:55,800
And I jumped in toward the latter part of 99 is about two years later.

722
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,600
And I went through the four year part time program.

723
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:07,960
And then I thought, well, OK, and I was working for a small law firm as a legal, basically

724
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,920
a legal writer part, you know, part time.

725
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:20,680
But it's after the bar, the February 2004 bar and passed, you know, because I hear all

726
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,960
I heard all these stories about, you know, I take the bar four times or whatever, and

727
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,000
I passed.

728
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,200
So I'm thinking, you know, now what?

729
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,760
So I started practicing part time and with this firm.

730
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,080
And in fact, I did I think I was and I was an active lieutenant at the time.

731
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,000
In fact, I sat for the baby bar in the lieutenant's exam.

732
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,320
This is a couple of years earlier at the same time, within a couple of months of each other.

733
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,040
And then they got my ticket punched and I landed up handling as an active lieutenant

734
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:55,320
this criminal matter with Chief Bratton's approval in another another county.

735
00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:02,600
I disclosed to my captain and, you know, and then that was OK as far as the there were

736
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,880
no conflicts issues.

737
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:12,440
But but the bottom line is it wasn't like I had this this mapped out and thinking where

738
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:13,440
I was going to go.

739
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,320
But I practiced part time for about seven years.

740
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:26,360
And then things I was invited to come into work, you know, in a more full time capacity

741
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,580
doing police defense from our union.

742
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:32,360
And I thought, you know, maybe this is the way Lord's taking my career.

743
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:38,800
So at the 26 year mark, I retired and went to full time practice.

744
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:44,760
And I just feel like again, this is where where God would have me.

745
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:50,080
Where I hear a lot of people struggle in the military and first responders is the transition.

746
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,720
You know, when we're in uniform, we've got our tribe, we've got our purpose, you know,

747
00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:55,280
we've got all the things that we adore.

748
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,520
And it literally, as you said, if you're if you're cognizant, it doesn't become your

749
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,000
identity, but for a lot of people, it does because they started when they were 18, 19,

750
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,000
20.

751
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,520
And then, you know, they did it for 20, 30 years.

752
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,280
That can be very jarring when that door closes behind them on the very last day.

753
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,040
And it's not even like the military that has a VA or, you know, places that they can

754
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,080
go meet up after a lot of these departments.

755
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,240
When you're done, you're done.

756
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:21,720
What was your transition like?

757
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:25,520
And I'm assuming there was, you know, there was going from one kind of tribe to the other

758
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,360
still attached to the first.

759
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,320
And what have you seen as far as some of your fellow men and women with their transitions?

760
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,320
And if you saw any struggles.

761
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:36,680
Have some struggles.

762
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:46,320
And in fact, yeah, to your point about the tribe and that transition, the Los Angeles

763
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,880
Police Department does have a very fraternal sorority sense.

764
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:57,280
And there are actually groups all around the United States and even even I think some abroad.

765
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:05,480
But where these groups will meet, even here in not too far here in Bullhead and all over

766
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,800
Southern California and other states.

767
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,120
So the retired folks will get together.

768
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,960
And I've attended a few of these functions.

769
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:24,760
But unfortunately, I think in this most recent, you know, culture shift with the way that

770
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:33,440
folks were being treated with regard to this mandate issue, I think that that was interfering

771
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,240
with some of that sense of family.

772
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:44,880
So people that were on the job in their whole identity was that of a Los Angeles police

773
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,200
officer, which, by the way, is kind of almost like the default.

774
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:56,200
A lot of people walk away and they just really look they become unworked from that identity

775
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,760
and then they don't know what to do.

776
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,800
So I would just recommend strongly that, you know, people take a hard look at themselves

777
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:10,240
and realize that their identity is not wrapped up in their career.

778
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:16,040
Not to minimize the importance of being a firefighter police officer or that, you know,

779
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,240
being a Los Angeles police officer.

780
00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:22,600
It's just that that doesn't that doesn't make you who you are.

781
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:23,760
And I try to tell people that.

782
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:30,760
Now, a lot of my clients, you know, once this happens, like I thought we were family here

783
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,040
and they're being treated this way.

784
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,520
And I got to, you know, kind of bring them back.

785
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,360
This is a little bit outside my job as a lawyer.

786
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,860
But you know, my job is to protect you legally.

787
00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:44,480
But I'll tell you, you know, take a hard look at really, really what life is all about.

788
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:45,800
It's not about your career.

789
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,760
Even me as a lawyer, you know, I love to do what I'm doing.

790
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,280
I feel it's my calling.

791
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,280
But yeah, you're right.

792
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,000
It is jarring.

793
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:58,720
And I just try to draw them back to again, what is your what is your purpose in life?

794
00:55:58,720 --> 00:55:59,720
Why are you here?

795
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:01,920
Well, we're really here to serve God.

796
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,520
We're here really to to recognize his divine purpose in our lives.

797
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,440
And it is to love and respect him.

798
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:15,320
And and that's that's probably the best direction I can give people, which, by the way, is the

799
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,960
reason why I usually try to end my conversations with people with, you know, God bless.

800
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,400
I try to draw people to, you know, the creator of the universe.

801
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:29,880
And then that helps them, I think, deal with these things that are on a lower, lower order.

802
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,160
Well, you mentioned the mandates.

803
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,600
So let's talk about that during a suit.

804
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:40,440
When this thing first swept across, I haven't met a person yet that didn't say at first

805
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,200
we were like, oh, shit, what is this thing?

806
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,840
But then shortly after that, a lot of people, especially in the health space, stood in the

807
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,480
middle were like, OK, this isn't as bad as everyone was saying.

808
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:56,320
And so through that next year and a half, two years, my whole stance was in the middle.

809
00:56:56,320 --> 00:57:00,800
This is all about the health of the individual, the healthier you are, the more chance you

810
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,400
have of surviving the virus.

811
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:10,680
Or if you choose to opt for a vaccine, very different than being told, you know, that

812
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,920
again, your body would have a healthier immune response and create antibodies that may or

813
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,160
may not help you if you're exposed.

814
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:22,440
So the health of the nation was the truth that I stood on and was extremely disappointed

815
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:27,120
to see, as you talked about earlier with alcohol, that what people were told to do was the polar

816
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:28,760
opposite of how you make someone healthy.

817
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,760
You know, stay in your house, stay scared.

818
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,040
We'll tell you when you can come out.

819
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,120
You can have fast food and alcohol delivered to your home and just go watch the Tiger King

820
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,040
versus, you know, let's put P back in schools.

821
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,040
Let's get real food made in schools again.

822
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,320
Let's remove all the soda machines.

823
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,520
Let's give local farmers money to grow healthy organic food.

824
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,760
All the things that would make someone a nation healthier were completely disregarded.

825
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,520
So that was the the middle area of common sense that I stood through this.

826
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:58,840
Then the vaccines came through.

827
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,980
I had friends that worked in in hospital settings that said the vaccines seem to be helping.

828
00:58:03,980 --> 00:58:08,360
So OK, there seems to be some sort of symptom reduction, possibly of people who are already

829
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,360
sick.

830
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:10,360
All right.

831
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:11,360
Well, great.

832
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:12,360
That's a that's a good thing to know.

833
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:17,240
But then the very men and women that held the line while we were all hiding in our houses

834
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,620
are now being told you're going to be terminated because you're a selfish murderer if you don't

835
00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:23,340
take this vaccine.

836
00:58:23,340 --> 00:58:26,440
And I literally just interviewed an L.A. firefighter just in November.

837
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,800
No, no, I interviewed him in January.

838
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:33,360
He was terminated in November of twenty twenty four.

839
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:39,280
So to me, that was a complete abuse of power based on zero science.

840
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,560
And as we know now, not only was the vaccine pretty much a flip of a coin, whether it is

841
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:49,760
even going to help you or not now, even the the six foot and the masks, which anyone in

842
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,760
the health space knew was absolute bullshit from the beginning.

843
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,920
Now people are putting their hands up because they're being forced to and going, OK, this

844
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,240
was I kind of made this shit up.

845
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:05,960
So I was just furious, the fact that people that served so selflessly were now being terminated

846
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,700
for something that was completely unjust.

847
00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:11,440
So walk me through that's a big monologue of my my perception.

848
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,440
But walk me through the pandemic through your eyes and then what you started seeing was

849
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,840
happening to your men and women.

850
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:19,840
Yeah.

851
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:20,840
Thank you, James.

852
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:32,640
It's become actually a big part of my practice for this last three and a half years now.

853
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:33,640
So what happened?

854
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:34,640
I'm sorry.

855
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,640
August twenty twenty one.

856
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,000
So that's actually two and a half years, I believe.

857
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,000
Right.

858
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:42,000
Is that the math is correct.

859
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Yeah.

860
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,600
So I just put foundation.

861
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:54,720
I was never really a you know, I never had any really strong anti vaccine opinions, although

862
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:59,080
that term also has and I know you I'm sure you know this has has changed because the

863
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:08,440
time in August of twenty twenty one, the term vaccine referred to a dead or deadened version

864
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:16,520
of the virus, not messenger RNA treatment, which is again a different technology, it's

865
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,000
a different biotechnology, not that it's invalid.

866
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,280
I'm saying it's different.

867
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:26,600
And so, you know, as a lawyer, I want to make sure we use the right words.

868
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:33,360
So at the time, I you know, I remember in the 80s and 90s, people talking about the

869
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:39,160
vaccines, that other type of the dead and deadened version and some of the, you know,

870
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,200
preservative issues and the taint and mercury.

871
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:49,080
And, you know, I just was never really that close to tracking those issues.

872
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:54,480
It just wasn't on my radar, especially since I was, you know, again, in police work at

873
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:55,480
the time.

874
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,840
But I remember hearing some of these Senate hearings.

875
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:07,880
And then there were connections to the different syndromes that young kids were starting to

876
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:13,440
experience who were being vaccinated, maybe over vaccinated or some some allegations.

877
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:20,520
But James, that was not something that I was really getting drawn into at the time.

878
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,280
It was it was adjacent to the issues I dealt with.

879
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:29,880
But in August of 2021, I actually had and I'm not going to give names here as far as

880
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:36,920
this park was, but actually was getting referrals from from our union for options that were

881
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:42,280
going, hey, you know, what's going on with this?

882
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,400
What are we supposed to do?

883
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,400
And just I know, you know this, and I'm sure all your listeners will remember this history.

884
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:56,480
If you go back to the very early part of 2020, in fact, January, February of 2020, that's

885
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,520
when people are starting to say, wait a minute, what is this thing that's going on?

886
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,520
This this virus?

887
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:08,080
And by March, I think in fact, I think it was March 4th, if my memory serves me correctly,

888
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:15,400
2020 was when there was a declaration of an emergency in the sense that we have, at least

889
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,800
in Los Angeles, we have this problem here, we need to deal with it.

890
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,120
So we got March 2020.

891
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,560
Now fast forward to August of 2021.

892
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:33,760
This is what is that a year and a half plus, we have officers who are actually units, it's

893
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,120
almost a year and a half.

894
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,160
It's a good 16 months.

895
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:38,160
Right.

896
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:41,000
So pretty close to a year and a half.

897
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:48,360
Officers are working under conditions where there was no issue about the vaccine as far

898
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,760
as, hey, get this injection, go out there, handle your radio calls.

899
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:58,440
Yeah, you got to wear a mask, keep your distance, hear some wipes.

900
01:02:58,440 --> 01:02:59,440
That was it.

901
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,360
And suddenly it's like throwing a switch.

902
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,560
Okay, wait a minute.

903
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:08,420
We're going to come up with this ordinance, which is fine, by the way, I get that.

904
01:03:08,420 --> 01:03:11,900
But back to leadership, we play by the rules.

905
01:03:11,900 --> 01:03:17,840
So you want to enact this law, then let's go through the process, which whether or not

906
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:25,200
they actually complied with the meet and confer requirements is a kind of a side discussion

907
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,200
here.

908
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:31,120
It was at least adjacent to the issues I was dealing with, but that wasn't really properly

909
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:35,460
what I was looking at.

910
01:03:35,460 --> 01:03:38,320
But the questions I was getting, hey, can they do this?

911
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:43,840
I did some light research on the issue and it got kind of brushed aside and specifically

912
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,560
looking at the application of Jacobson.

913
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:52,440
But what I was looking at was, wait a minute, this is kind of emerging technology.

914
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:57,000
It's not at the time, again, it was not defined as a vaccine, but really let's put that aside.

915
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:58,780
Let's just look at the legal stuff.

916
01:03:58,780 --> 01:04:07,680
What can the city do to in fact enforce or force is probably a better word, it's human

917
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:14,600
resources, the people to actually take this medical treatment, which is really experimental.

918
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:20,000
I mean, that's what it was and everybody knew at the time.

919
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:26,880
So I provided some of this very initial research and I thought, well, I can distinguish this

920
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,040
Jacobson issue and that kind of got put aside.

921
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:38,720
So within a month or two, I'm getting, because by the time officers come to me, it's already

922
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:39,720
a train wreck.

923
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,280
In other words, they're being sent to a board of rights.

924
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:46,520
I'm not involved in, was not for these cases at all, involved in any of the decisions that

925
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:49,120
were made prior to them being worked to board of rights.

926
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:57,160
And what happened here, James, was, and this is where I as a lawyer, this was a relatively

927
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,160
easy analysis.

928
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,240
You have an ordinance which was enacted.

929
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:07,880
It was actually codified in the Los Angeles administrative code, which, okay, they did

930
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:13,320
that and they being the council and the mayor, it is what it is.

931
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,220
And you have the labor code and you've got the government code.

932
01:05:17,220 --> 01:05:19,320
As a lawyer, that's what I start with.

933
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:27,880
And now you have, okay, so what was the action that the officer did in conjunction with these

934
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:32,200
different provisions that actually sent them to board of rights?

935
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:42,280
Well, what it was, James, was this document that was called notice, and I'm paraphrasing

936
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:49,800
her a bit, but essentially notice regarding their requirements to comply with the COVID-19

937
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:50,800
vaccine.

938
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:56,480
In a nutshell, and that's a bit of a paraphrase, but it was this other document.

939
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:03,400
When you look at that, that document itself on its face, you don't have to be a lawyer

940
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:10,360
to figure this out, violated the labor code and it violated the ordinance itself.

941
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,400
Crystal clear violations.

942
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:17,480
So I don't even get to whether or not the vaccines are effective, whether or not the

943
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,800
vaccines at all, didn't even deal with any of that.

944
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:31,200
And when I went to these boards defending the officers, sadly, and I may not have my

945
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:36,600
opinions about why this happened, but I'm probably going to reserve on those opinions.

946
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:42,040
The boards, the tribunal is comprised of three individuals.

947
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:44,160
These happen to be what we call civilian boards.

948
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:49,080
So all three individuals are civilians, but they are in essence, they're at the direction

949
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:50,840
of the police commission.

950
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,980
They're selection process.

951
01:06:52,980 --> 01:06:59,680
But in the end, they're essentially being kind of told, don't even worry about the labor

952
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:00,680
code.

953
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,800
Hey, these are emergency conditions.

954
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,840
Gosh, people are dying.

955
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:06,680
They're just dropping like flies.

956
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:11,920
So because of these emergency conditions, we can ignore, and I'm paraphrasing, we can

957
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:13,380
ignore the labor code.

958
01:07:13,380 --> 01:07:17,240
We just got to do what we got to do and we'll deal with it later.

959
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,040
I got to tell you, James, that's not acceptable.

960
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,340
We weren't under martial law.

961
01:07:22,340 --> 01:07:24,620
We don't suspend civil liberties.

962
01:07:24,620 --> 01:07:26,040
We don't suspend the labor code.

963
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,960
We don't suspend even the ordinance itself.

964
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:37,920
The notice didn't even comply with the exact law that was purporting to create the need

965
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:41,560
for the vaccination requirement.

966
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:42,560
And that was the context.

967
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:48,640
Now, I had several boards, the very last one, because this over the course of about probably

968
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:52,080
about five or six months, the very last one, we finally prevailed.

969
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,000
I was able to get the board.

970
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,760
There was actually, well, we prevailed that one.

971
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:05,440
But everyone else, they were being sent to these boards and then they were terminated.

972
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:06,960
Now, this is a matter of public record.

973
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:17,960
What I'm going to tell you here is that these officers were looking for their remedy when

974
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:22,200
they're terminated, which would be a writ to superior court.

975
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:27,760
That's the normal appeal process from the administrative finding, which we did.

976
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:34,760
And we batted literally a thousand on those with one of the tentative rulings getting

977
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:47,480
flipped around because I was able to demonstrate later that there was a misrepresentation at

978
01:08:47,480 --> 01:08:50,160
the hearing about evidence, which was simply not true.

979
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,460
We're going to get that corrected here in due course on the appeal.

980
01:08:53,460 --> 01:08:59,000
But every one of the judges found that there were crystal clear Skelly violations, Skelly

981
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:07,800
in due process, Skelly being a case that essentially in California kind of breaks down what the

982
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,840
officers minimum due process rights are.

983
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:17,120
But they found, and using one judge's word, trampled.

984
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,400
They literally trampled on these officers' rights.

985
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:29,880
So when you get that level of literally disregard of what to say about leadership.

986
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,400
And unfortunately, the courts then looked at the case law.

987
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:38,400
And I respectfully think they misinterpreted this, that the remedy was simply give them

988
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:43,240
the back pay up until where they go to the board of rights.

989
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,960
So they're basically to give them six, seven, eight months worth of back pay.

990
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:52,680
But they're going to uphold determinations, which I think is a legal issue.

991
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:54,480
It's a very discrete, it's very easy.

992
01:09:54,480 --> 01:10:00,500
I don't think the court of appeal, I'll be surprised if they don't correct this.

993
01:10:00,500 --> 01:10:04,800
Because the proper remedy was reinstatement.

994
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,320
And it's particularly appropriate now.

995
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:09,720
I think it was always appropriate.

996
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:15,360
But now that we know we have a Ninth Circuit rule in which you're probably familiar with,

997
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:29,760
a relatively recent, where it's pretty clear that the Mesjarni treatments have very serious

998
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:30,760
consequences.

999
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:38,920
In fact, one of the comments in that opinion harkens back to the common law and actually

1000
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,120
imposing medical treatments on people was considered a common law.

1001
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:48,600
You know, the type of torus, type of battery.

1002
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:55,880
And even the chief, Chief Moore, in the interim period, there was a podcast, he was interviewed

1003
01:10:55,880 --> 01:11:04,920
and he plainly admits, oh yeah, now we know after the fact that the vaccine, as he called

1004
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,740
it, it's kind of like a flu shot.

1005
01:11:08,740 --> 01:11:15,960
So yeah, it doesn't affect transmission, but you know, still you should think about taking

1006
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:16,960
it.

1007
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,360
Well, wait a minute, if it doesn't affect transmission, in other words, getting the

1008
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:28,760
jab doesn't change a person's ability to transmit, then what right would you have to impose it?

1009
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:32,040
When that was precisely the reason why you were saying everyone had to be vaccinated,

1010
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:38,240
it was to minimize the transmission when you have public safety folks going out there and

1011
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:44,360
on radio calls or responding to fires and whatnot.

1012
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:48,640
So yeah, reinstatement is what should happen.

1013
01:11:48,640 --> 01:12:00,000
To your point, I have clients, I mean, we're talking 27 year, 32 year veterans, stellar

1014
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:08,320
career supervisors, no misconduct for the most part in terms of history.

1015
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:15,200
And yet the department, or I should say the city, is just digging in and they're just

1016
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:18,240
simply saying, yeah, you know what, figure it out in court.

1017
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:20,880
Well, okay, as a lawyer, that's what I do.

1018
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:22,800
I just think it's unfortunate.

1019
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:31,000
And if there was some leadership, and especially now, the city just recently now is looking

1020
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,000
at rescinding the ordinance.

1021
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:37,640
And I believe that now it's actually taking effect, they've been talking about it for

1022
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:38,640
months.

1023
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:44,280
But why not just say, hey, look, we made a mistake, let's bring these folks back and

1024
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,080
they're just simply not doing it.

1025
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,040
So we're going to have to go through the whole process apparently.

1026
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,280
And I think that that's just not the way to treat people.

1027
01:12:53,280 --> 01:13:00,960
And to your earlier point about the jarring effect, I think these folks are really jarred

1028
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:01,960
by that.

1029
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:07,380
And it gives me the opportunity to tell them, look, we're here by God's grace.

1030
01:13:07,380 --> 01:13:15,260
So I love the department, but that ain't what life's all about.

1031
01:13:15,260 --> 01:13:18,120
Just expanding on that for a second, this is what I've seen.

1032
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:22,680
So we touched on before about if you work for a department for 10, 20, 30 years, how

1033
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:27,760
that does become your tribe and part of your identity, but certainly your tribe.

1034
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,520
And I was talking to a friend this morning, because we just had yet another suicide here

1035
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:33,720
in central Florida.

1036
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:39,080
And when you work in an organization, and we'll get to the leadership side again in

1037
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:43,480
a second, but you wear the patch on your shoulder, you wear the badge on your chest, and you've

1038
01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:49,640
literally signed, as they say, a blank check that you will die for the men and women to

1039
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,360
the left or right of you and all the people that you serve.

1040
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,040
Not many professionals can say they do that.

1041
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,360
That's what you do for this tribe.

1042
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:58,040
And then that tribe turns around.

1043
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,720
And like you said, it may not be the actual department, but that tribe, the city, the

1044
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:06,800
county, whatever it is, turns around and cuts your legs from underneath you.

1045
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,880
That is devastating to a first responder.

1046
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:15,160
And I wonder how many that we've lost, because that kind of betrayal was the final straw

1047
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:17,640
in their mental health struggle.

1048
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:19,600
Yeah.

1049
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:25,640
I remember even in the academy, an officer came through who I had the opportunity to

1050
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,520
work with later, first name being Keith.

1051
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:34,840
I won't use the last name, but distinctly remember him coming in and talking about these

1052
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:36,840
dark times that he was experiencing.

1053
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:38,840
And they were, this again, even in the 80s.

1054
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:43,560
This is not a new problem for fire and police.

1055
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:51,120
And he was talking about going into this closet and the pistol malfunctioning.

1056
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:52,720
Thank God.

1057
01:14:52,720 --> 01:15:00,160
I would just say first and foremost, if anybody is ever experiencing that dark sense, that's

1058
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:01,600
just demonic.

1059
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:06,240
You got to remember that God put you here for a purpose.

1060
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:15,080
And doing something like that, think about, if you can't draw your attention to the Lord,

1061
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:17,280
just think about what you're doing to your family.

1062
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:22,520
Somebody's going to be for sure at least one or two people, maybe more, are going to be

1063
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:23,520
completely devastated.

1064
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:27,520
And they're going to live with that guilt of thinking maybe they should have done something

1065
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:28,520
intervene.

1066
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:31,480
But it's just demonic.

1067
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:40,360
So if you're feeling like you have to have these connections for your identity, that

1068
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:42,920
again is the first problem.

1069
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,920
I mentioned earlier about these relationships I have.

1070
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:50,040
I keep in contact with partners.

1071
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:58,080
I mentioned even my partner from Metro, my teacher from police role in government.

1072
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,400
But that's a relationship.

1073
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:04,120
It's independent from the Los Angeles Police Department.

1074
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:10,520
Just so happens that I developed that relationship while with the Los Angeles Police Department.

1075
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:15,200
But that's not inextricably woven in.

1076
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:19,320
And you're going to have people that are going to fail you.

1077
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:26,360
Unfortunately, when things go sideways, as they did here with this whole mandate thing,

1078
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:31,600
you're going to have folks that are scrambling around doing what they think they need to

1079
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,440
do to survive.

1080
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:37,320
And that's disappointing.

1081
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,920
But don't let that define again your value and your worth.

1082
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:48,720
People I think when they come to that very, very dark demonic threshold, I think they

1083
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,160
just lost the sense of their value.

1084
01:16:52,160 --> 01:17:01,160
And just cry out to the Lord, don't allow that to consume you.

1085
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:06,120
It's interesting because my philosophy or my view on the suicide and how I view it has

1086
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,400
evolved, you know, with all these conversations.

1087
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:13,480
And you know, the old school way of thinking was, oh, it's cowardly, it's selfish, you

1088
01:17:13,480 --> 01:17:15,040
know, think of your family.

1089
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:19,640
But what I've realized now hearing so many testimonies from people just like you spoke

1090
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:24,120
about, people that literally were there about to and a phone call or something just stopped

1091
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,920
him or, you know, on occasion, a malfunction.

1092
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,880
And then some people that went through with it and survived their suicide attempt is there's

1093
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:36,120
such a miswiring of the brain through the perfect storm of, you know, unaddressed childhood

1094
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:41,640
trauma, you know, sleep deprivation, the horrific calls that we see, organizational betrayal,

1095
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,320
you know, it's a whole bunch of side effects from psych meds, you name it.

1096
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:47,240
And so there's a miswiring of the brain.

1097
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:51,800
And you could argue if you want to put it in a religious point of view, the devil regains

1098
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:52,800
strength.

1099
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:57,440
And so that voice is telling you to live and be there for your family is now completely

1100
01:17:57,440 --> 01:17:58,440
distorted.

1101
01:17:58,440 --> 01:18:03,180
And your reality is, I hear this so often, you're a burden to your family.

1102
01:18:03,180 --> 01:18:05,580
They would be better off if you weren't here.

1103
01:18:05,580 --> 01:18:08,300
That's the voice that the devil's whispering in their ear.

1104
01:18:08,300 --> 01:18:12,520
And it's so sad because the average, you know, the healthy person goes, that's so selfish,

1105
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:13,520
why would they do that?

1106
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:19,040
That person, ironically, at that moment is being selfless and courageous because their

1107
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,520
reality is I'm going to do that same blank check.

1108
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,480
I'm going to do that for my family because I am the problem.

1109
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:29,520
And so that needs to be front and center of the mental health conversation.

1110
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:34,460
If you're a miswired brain, if the devil is whispering in your ear that you're a burden,

1111
01:18:34,460 --> 01:18:39,600
that is when you need to ask for help, whether it's, you know, your deity, whether it's counseling,

1112
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:44,800
whatever your thing is, because your reality is so distorted that you believe that you

1113
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:45,800
are the problem.

1114
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,600
And there's a terrifying place to be.

1115
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:49,400
Yeah, I know.

1116
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:50,400
I agree with you.

1117
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:51,960
And by the way, I apologize.

1118
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:59,440
I definitely did not want to come across as judging anybody in the, I think you definitely

1119
01:18:59,440 --> 01:19:01,800
summed it up very well there.

1120
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:12,160
The miswiring of the brain and what part of our awareness and our makeup is, you know,

1121
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:16,560
the wiring and the physical and what part is the metaphysical and the spiritual.

1122
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:19,720
I got to tell you, I don't know.

1123
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:20,720
I just don't.

1124
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:27,000
And, you know, the Bible talks about, you know, the whole drug scene is there's a term

1125
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:33,720
for me, I think is the Greek term, but and where James, those lines are and what causes

1126
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:39,960
it, because I've talked to people, in fact, my work in Hollywood, many, many, many times

1127
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,600
chatting with folks on the streets and they'll see things.

1128
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:45,680
Or you mentioned sleep deprivation.

1129
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:51,680
That's another really, which I've experienced because of work, you know, and it does cause

1130
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:55,920
you to see things and people will use the term hallucinate, which is probably correct.

1131
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,600
I just don't know.

1132
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:00,840
But yeah, you're right.

1133
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:08,440
I think that if they come to that point and I would characterize as devil whispering or

1134
01:20:08,440 --> 01:20:11,600
hey, you know, you're doing the craziest thing.

1135
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,680
Your family would be better off without you.

1136
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:15,040
Well, that's a lie.

1137
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:16,040
Devil's a liar.

1138
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:23,360
And if that's happening because of, you know, the acid that the person dropped or whatever,

1139
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:29,080
you know, they're so, you know, a drug from some other kind of drug or alcohol, whatever

1140
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:30,080
it is.

1141
01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:35,960
Yeah, I think that if they can remember that they need help.

1142
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:38,880
Yeah, I agree with that.

1143
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:44,760
And we do have to take a look at the resource that are available.

1144
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:52,280
Now LAPD does, I think, have the resources, BSS.

1145
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:59,500
And there are, in fact, I have a number of colleagues that are with the Chaplain Corps.

1146
01:20:59,500 --> 01:21:00,500
So they're there.

1147
01:21:00,500 --> 01:21:08,640
The problem is when people get to that point where they're at that threshold, you know,

1148
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,540
they need to seek help before that.

1149
01:21:10,540 --> 01:21:15,520
If people are starting to struggle with their identity and back to your point, I feel betrayed.

1150
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,000
Hey, my partner's at this unit.

1151
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:23,720
I was going through this border riots or whatever and I've seen officers, you know, that experienced

1152
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:24,720
that.

1153
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:28,680
I feel betrayed because they turned their back on me or we used to hang out.

1154
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,960
Now they treat me like I'm a pariah.

1155
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:38,720
That's when you need to start reaching out before you find yourself in that dark corner

1156
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,720
in your room.

1157
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,040
Yeah.

1158
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:47,480
Well going back to something else you said as well, we made a mistake.

1159
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:53,400
The power of the humility to say we did the best of what we did at that moment, but now

1160
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:55,640
we realize that it was wrong.

1161
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:58,600
I see it in the fire service, lack of it in the fire service.

1162
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:03,400
Like I'm on this hell bent mission to change the way the firefighters are worked.

1163
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,840
I mean, law enforcement usually is a 40-ish hour a week.

1164
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:07,840
Firefighters are 56.

1165
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:09,920
It's fucking insanity.

1166
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:14,640
And yet to get people to just take a step back and go, I don't know how we got away

1167
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:17,120
with it for so long, but it needs to change.

1168
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:19,380
You know, it's such a hard push.

1169
01:22:19,380 --> 01:22:21,360
The same with the pandemic.

1170
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,480
You know, like I said, there was one truth.

1171
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:28,280
Let's make whatever country you're living in healthier.

1172
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:32,000
That way, whatever the next virus is, whether you call it Steve or Barbara or whatever the

1173
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:39,600
fuck you want to call it this time, that you're a more resilient person mentally and physically.

1174
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,880
But that was completely disregarded, which this whole trust the science thing.

1175
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:48,360
I've been in medicine most of my life that wasn't science that they were telling us.

1176
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:51,080
And then, you know, if it's a thing about it, it's about health.

1177
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:53,760
It wasn't because the obesity has only got worse and worse and worse.

1178
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:57,320
So you never gave a shit about the nation's health.

1179
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:01,800
What is the resistance to actually saying we made a mistake?

1180
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:03,600
Here's the things we should have done.

1181
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:08,040
Here's what we're going to do to rectify it.

1182
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:09,920
I'm going to have to turn back to the Bible.

1183
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,720
The first sin is pride.

1184
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:15,760
And that's the reality.

1185
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,440
And that's I think, you know, people want to be judgmental of command staff.

1186
01:23:19,440 --> 01:23:26,880
You know, that's I think I only is being judgmental by saying, look, you know, take a step back,

1187
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:34,360
you know, leaders, you know, chief command staff or mayor and say, let's let's take a

1188
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:35,360
hard look at this.

1189
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:40,000
In fact, that that's what is preached at the academy.

1190
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:44,280
You know, one of the things with discipline is, are you willing to admit that you made

1191
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,280
a mistake?

1192
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:51,680
That's one of the metrics that significant metric that's used, you know, is that recognizing

1193
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:52,840
that you made a mistake.

1194
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:57,960
So the tantrum question of resistance is is part of our fallen human condition.

1195
01:23:57,960 --> 01:23:59,160
We're prideful.

1196
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,080
We have to be able to put that aside.

1197
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:06,120
I deal with everybody deals with it really at different levels.

1198
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:11,080
And Frank, frankly, that was, you know, sorry to keep harping on this, but that was that

1199
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:12,080
was the devil's problem.

1200
01:24:12,080 --> 01:24:19,800
I read the book of Isaiah, you know, the five I wills, you know, his whole thing was to

1201
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:20,800
to be God.

1202
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:27,120
And we got to put pride aside if we really truly honestly want to make society, you know,

1203
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:29,680
better and to advance.

1204
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:33,840
Everyone has to be able to take a step back and say, you know what, you know, like in

1205
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:39,880
this case, you know, looking at the mandate, we made a mistake.

1206
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:42,920
And the other thing is we don't want to live in an echo chamber.

1207
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:48,440
One of the things that was really, really spooky that they came out of this litigation,

1208
01:24:48,440 --> 01:24:57,300
James, was the revelation that the city really wanted to kind of identify folks that wouldn't

1209
01:24:57,300 --> 01:24:58,960
just kind of go along.

1210
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:01,680
That was that was disappointing to hear.

1211
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:08,520
Some of some of this and that was actually kind of part of the plan was to kind of, you

1212
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:12,600
know, discover who wouldn't just go along with it.

1213
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:17,000
When we say jump, you simply say how high instead of saying, well, wait a minute, this

1214
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,920
is this is actually unlawful.

1215
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:24,640
Law enforcement, which means I should call out something when it's not right.

1216
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:26,800
But yeah, right.

1217
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:27,800
We need we need to deal with it.

1218
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:29,320
All of us do.

1219
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:34,320
How do we stop the government overreach with this local government, state or national occurring

1220
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:39,560
again and putting our frontline personnel in danger once again?

1221
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,560
So that's multifaceted.

1222
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:51,400
Again, looking at the brilliance of our founders in this country, the division, separation

1223
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:59,720
of powers, any time you start allowing power to pull, you know, that that will tend to

1224
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:01,040
hedge against the overreach.

1225
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:06,600
And then the other thing is in this going to, you know, although I I've never really held

1226
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:09,360
myself out as necessarily a union lawyer.

1227
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:14,880
But the reality is we need collective bargaining units that are actually committed to doing

1228
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,040
their job.

1229
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:21,880
And the question might be not pointing finger to any particular collective bargaining unit,

1230
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:26,000
but you know, where were they in this this whole adventure?

1231
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:31,280
Some we're doing maybe a more effective job than others.

1232
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,000
But but I think that's important.

1233
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:39,560
And then also, just looking, I think even probably the most important thing is, is everybody

1234
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:45,720
taking a hard look inside and make sure that we're not allowing ourselves to, you know,

1235
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:51,840
take foreign leadership positions to misuse and abuse our powers.

1236
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:57,120
I've called out unions a lot because I spent 14 years actually wearing the uniform.

1237
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,880
The work we never changed.

1238
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:01,640
There was never a fitness standard put in.

1239
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:03,600
I'm like, what is it that you're doing?

1240
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:05,520
Other unions, they have a standardized work week.

1241
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:09,240
They have working conditions, you know, ocean lifeguards and special forces and all those

1242
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:15,240
that they have all kinds of standards that they have to maintain.

1243
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:20,280
And I work in these organizations that are opposing fitness standards and they're rebuking

1244
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:25,080
a better work week because they're chasing, you know, a raise or I don't want to have

1245
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:29,120
that because then then I'll lose my overtime, which is self-serving.

1246
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:37,060
So I see first a lot of a lot of cowardice in and kind of self self-described leaders

1247
01:27:37,060 --> 01:27:38,060
in the fire service.

1248
01:27:38,060 --> 01:27:41,600
You know, there are I mean, I literally just found out that one of our firefighters died

1249
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,840
literally yesterday or a couple of days ago, you know, and I don't understand how that

1250
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:46,840
doesn't move people.

1251
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:51,040
And whether you're in the administrative position, whether you're in the board of a city or a

1252
01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:56,760
county or whether you're in a union position, if you're not fighting tooth and nail for

1253
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:00,280
your men and women, then you have no business being there.

1254
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:04,920
And this cowardice, we have an absolute epidemic of cowardice and people are padding their

1255
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,920
own career paths rather than actually serving the people in uniform.

1256
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:12,600
Yeah, no, I agree.

1257
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:18,640
Yeah, I've seen that directly.

1258
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:21,600
And it's unfortunate.

1259
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,840
But that's again, part of I think of the human condition and it goes back to the issue of

1260
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:27,040
pride.

1261
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:37,960
People are in our fallen state, we're self-seeking and people will go to these positions with

1262
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:45,760
certain collective bargaining units, unions to advance some other political agenda that

1263
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:46,760
happens.

1264
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,000
Do I think they're all like that?

1265
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:50,000
No.

1266
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:58,000
My classmate, academy classmate was a president at our union, highly committed to doing the

1267
01:28:58,000 --> 01:28:59,000
right thing.

1268
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,360
I deeply respect him.

1269
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:07,040
But yeah, what we see here is it's not unique to any one organization.

1270
01:29:07,040 --> 01:29:11,920
It's not certainly unique to California or Florida.

1271
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:16,960
It's I think nationwide for all police departments and fire departments.

1272
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:21,000
As we sit and record this, I think it was yesterday, they announced that they arrested

1273
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:28,400
one of the chiefs and an officer in the Uvalde massacre, for lack of a better word.

1274
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:34,440
The last place I worked, the complacency was so nauseating and they protected arguably

1275
01:29:34,440 --> 01:29:37,560
the biggest target hazard in America.

1276
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:40,640
And Uvalde to me is this is what will happen.

1277
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,640
God forbid that happens on your home turf.

1278
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:49,720
The lack of standards, the lack of reality and training, the lack of fitness standards,

1279
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:51,960
I mean, it just goes on and on and on.

1280
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:59,720
I think everyone in uniform that truly understands the job is just terrified of these certain

1281
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:03,080
kinds of things happening, knowing that, don't get me wrong, there's lots of departments

1282
01:30:03,080 --> 01:30:07,320
out there that are fully prepared and ready and God forbid it happens, they'll respond

1283
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:08,760
beautifully.

1284
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:12,840
But when you work for an agency where you know that they're just cowering with their

1285
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:16,920
fingers crossed, and we had a near miss in this department that I can say it because

1286
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:21,640
it was a national story, the pulse shooter went to Disney Springs first, where I used

1287
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:22,800
to work.

1288
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,400
And that's where he would have massacred.

1289
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,000
But there happened to be a police presence.

1290
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,680
He ended up going back to his car, driving up to Orlando and then doing what he did.

1291
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:34,840
And nothing was said in the department.

1292
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:39,760
And I pull this out of the shadows because God forbid it happens, we need to be ready.

1293
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:45,240
Now conversely, Anaheim, when I worked there, trained diligently and it would be the polar

1294
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:46,480
opposite.

1295
01:30:46,480 --> 01:30:51,940
So Ovalde is just, the reason why it turns our stomach is because so many people look

1296
01:30:51,940 --> 01:30:54,040
in the mirror and go, that could be us.

1297
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:55,440
That could be us.

1298
01:30:55,440 --> 01:31:03,640
So talk to me about your perspective of the wrong people rising to these positions where

1299
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:09,760
they don't uphold training, they don't communicate with other cities and first responder agencies.

1300
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:14,220
And you end up with that absolute nightmare where parents are basically watching their

1301
01:31:14,220 --> 01:31:18,600
children being massacred while police officers wait outside.

1302
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,360
So yeah, James, wow.

1303
01:31:21,360 --> 01:31:31,880
I think the answer to the meat of the question there is people that tend to rise through

1304
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:43,000
the ranks within police and fire tend to be people who just never really had to, they

1305
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:49,560
always were avoiding having to make any decision that they could be faulted for.

1306
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:58,560
Finding the way out where they can just do the minimum with regard to having to make

1307
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:01,320
any hard decisions, but not really making a call.

1308
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:05,740
I'm not saying all of them, again, I'm saying generally speaking.

1309
01:32:05,740 --> 01:32:14,640
So it's almost like there's very little risk to just simply not taking action or not standing

1310
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:17,280
up for something.

1311
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:22,640
And you're involved in a, well, like you talked about Rodney King, and you have people that

1312
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:29,240
are maybe standing on the back of this group of officers not getting involved.

1313
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:35,120
Well, that would validate their thought because, gee, all these officers were currently prosecuted.

1314
01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:42,360
So I was in the background, so I didn't have to be swept up in this.

1315
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:45,900
So when they move up, when they take their promotional exams, they don't have to worry

1316
01:32:45,900 --> 01:32:52,240
about answering about, hey, tell me about this incident that went kind of poorly here.

1317
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:57,960
And I think that's what explains how with Yuvaldi what happened there.

1318
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:04,360
Again, I don't have personal knowledge, but I kind of infer that that's probably what

1319
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:10,200
happened and led to this kind of prevailing notion that you can just sit there.

1320
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:15,800
Yeah, let's just kind of, let's get a command post set up.

1321
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,440
Let's make sure we have all the resources here.

1322
01:33:18,440 --> 01:33:20,000
And then just kind of wait.

1323
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:23,600
And then by the way, if a parent tries to run in there to get their kid, no, we're going

1324
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:31,280
to arrest that person because we can do that without worrying about getting shot or whatever.

1325
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:34,280
I think that that's probably trying to get inside their brain.

1326
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:39,420
I think that's probably what's going on is there's no downside and we'll just come in

1327
01:33:39,420 --> 01:33:42,760
and when the dust settles and we'll take reports.

1328
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:49,680
But for my rapid response like a little group of officers, okay, you got the point, you

1329
01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:51,720
got the shotgun, you got the shield and let's go.

1330
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:53,120
We got to save some lives here.

1331
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:54,720
Yeah, that's kind of risky.

1332
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:59,720
We don't want to do that because then we shoot the wrong person or whatever, then we're going

1333
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:00,720
to be faulted.

1334
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:06,880
I get that part, but there has to be, again, a benefit in risk assessment and they're just

1335
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,880
not used to doing that for the most part.

1336
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:16,960
I always point to the police officers that go into a burning car, break the windows with

1337
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:20,440
their nightstick, climb in, drag the person out.

1338
01:34:20,440 --> 01:34:25,800
That's probably not in their training, but they do it because it's the right thing to

1339
01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:26,800
do.

1340
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:27,800
Same as the fire service.

1341
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:32,000
I've had, I'll be very honest, I've had many firefighters say, well, if there's a shooting

1342
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:34,640
and I'm not going in, it's not what I'm paid to do.

1343
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:35,640
I disagree completely.

1344
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:37,560
No, I don't wear a sidearm.

1345
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:41,320
No, we don't have a vest, but we are paid to save lives.

1346
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:43,600
Sometimes it's going to be more dangerous than others.

1347
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:47,560
It's not about rules and regs and what's written down.

1348
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:49,360
It's far greater than that.

1349
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:53,240
If you gave the parents whose children were in that classroom, do you think they would

1350
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:55,080
falter for a second?

1351
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:59,120
No, they would take your fucking shield and your gun and they would just go towards and

1352
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:01,080
hope that it all panned out.

1353
01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:06,260
You're the ones who trained with body armor, with tactics, and you're too scared to go

1354
01:35:06,260 --> 01:35:09,800
and confront a child with a weapon.

1355
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:11,720
This is the issue.

1356
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:17,200
But if you've done nothing but say, I'm going to rise to the occasion and lean on that kind

1357
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,840
of fallacy, then you're not.

1358
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:21,080
You fall to your level of training.

1359
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:26,400
If your level of training is complacency, then you end up with an elementary school

1360
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:29,520
murdered and is unacceptable.

1361
01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:33,720
Yeah, yeah, it really is.

1362
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:39,160
And I still remember, again, what I have, I don't have any inside knowledge on what

1363
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:40,160
happened there.

1364
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:44,840
But again, yeah, what you just said there is exactly correct.

1365
01:35:44,840 --> 01:35:49,040
I couldn't imagine if I was a parent, let alone a police officer, but I was a parent

1366
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:51,840
there and had one of my kids in there.

1367
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:57,080
Yeah, that's just, it's tragic.

1368
01:35:57,080 --> 01:35:58,080
It's unfortunate.

1369
01:35:58,080 --> 01:35:59,080
And frankly, it's avoidable.

1370
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:00,080
Yeah.

1371
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:04,840
Yeah, all we can do is we can learn from it.

1372
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:05,840
It's already happened.

1373
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:09,080
Those kids are already dead, but at least the rest of the country can now go, how can

1374
01:36:09,080 --> 01:36:12,520
we make sure it doesn't happen in our city or county?

1375
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:13,520
Right.

1376
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:14,520
Yeah.

1377
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:21,040
And people will sometimes talk about other incidents where there was intervention and

1378
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:28,640
things at a federal level, who's going back quite a ways in terms of history.

1379
01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:33,320
But people talk about the FBI trying to intervene there.

1380
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:37,640
Waco was a little different there, but the whole situation.

1381
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:44,640
Well, okay, we don't say, we're not suggesting you be foolhardy, but there has to be some

1382
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:48,360
plan to intervene is when you have an active shooter.

1383
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:54,560
And actually LAPD did a good job, I think, developing the techniques.

1384
01:36:54,560 --> 01:37:01,920
And we've always as a whole been good about trying to address these issues as an organization.

1385
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:12,640
Do we still have that tendency for people at the command level to be risk adverse?

1386
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:17,760
They try to avoid making decisions that they can be called out on.

1387
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:19,800
Yeah, we do have that.

1388
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:26,200
But I think that explains what happened there in Ubaldia, I believe.

1389
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:32,800
Going back to the example I gave with in California cutting the roof, vertical ventilation, the

1390
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:35,920
comment I'd get on the East Coast, oh, it's too dangerous.

1391
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:37,900
And I'd say, all right, so let me get this straight.

1392
01:37:37,900 --> 01:37:43,120
You would rather put several companies of firefighters under this roof than one company

1393
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:46,040
on the top to make a hole so it's safe for you all.

1394
01:37:46,040 --> 01:37:47,560
Think about that.

1395
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:52,160
So sometimes these little fairy tales that we tell ourselves don't even make any sense.

1396
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:56,640
But the answer is going to require more courage and more training and more diligence as a

1397
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:57,800
department.

1398
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:00,440
Then that's how you get the results that you need.

1399
01:38:00,440 --> 01:38:02,640
Yeah, that requires work.

1400
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:04,840
You have to actually think.

1401
01:38:04,840 --> 01:38:12,840
Yeah, it's fascinating when talking to, I know it was not a firefighter, so I just all

1402
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:19,600
of my, if you want to call it knowledge, a little I know about it, putting the wet stuff

1403
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:23,080
on the red stuff, I suppose, is kind of the shorthand.

1404
01:38:23,080 --> 01:38:26,000
Yeah, it's fascinating.

1405
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:29,880
The science that goes into what firefighters do.

1406
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:33,440
Yeah, that example you just gave is exactly right.

1407
01:38:33,440 --> 01:38:38,360
You just look at the risk of deploying other resources.

1408
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:46,120
And the reality is fire and police, there is inherent risk.

1409
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:53,840
If you want to avoid all risk, just keep the police and fire folks at the station and once

1410
01:38:53,840 --> 01:39:00,560
the building is burned down and once the murders are done, we'll go out and take reports.

1411
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:02,880
That's an easy way to avoid all risk.

1412
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:03,880
Exactly.

1413
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:04,880
All right.

1414
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:08,400
Well, I want to go to some closing questions, but just before we do, when it comes to the

1415
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:13,920
mandate issue and other legal matters in the law enforcement community, are there any other

1416
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:19,440
areas you want to discuss before we move on?

1417
01:39:19,440 --> 01:39:33,360
So other than mandate and the legal issues, I just think that officers have been doing

1418
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:37,560
the work that they've been doing for many, many years with protections in place that

1419
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:39,720
I think have been misunderstood.

1420
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:47,720
I would just say that if anybody is complaining about police officers having some level of

1421
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:55,480
qualified immunity protections to their personnel files, I would just say that take a step back

1422
01:39:55,480 --> 01:40:05,600
and consider the chilling effect on police efforts to keep communities safe.

1423
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:12,560
And we just need to make sure that we protect those confidences.

1424
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:22,740
Case in point, pretty recently, there was a, in fact, at the Los Angeles DA's office,

1425
01:40:22,740 --> 01:40:30,120
there was a high ranking official there with that unit that supervises the prosecution

1426
01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:31,120
of police officers.

1427
01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:39,800
And they really, what was revealed in this unsealed affidavit just within the last day

1428
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:44,920
or two was the use of confidential information.

1429
01:40:44,920 --> 01:40:47,580
So I would say if anybody thinks, well, that's great.

1430
01:40:47,580 --> 01:40:53,000
We should just essentially get access to all of officers' personnel files and take away

1431
01:40:53,000 --> 01:40:54,560
all their qualified immunity.

1432
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:59,040
And forget being a police officer.

1433
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:07,260
Just think about yourself being a citizen living in a community and then having police

1434
01:41:07,260 --> 01:41:14,760
officers that really are hired with no protections and how hesitant many of them are going to

1435
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:21,200
be to take any type of action to protect you at three o'clock in the morning when you're

1436
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:22,200
sleeping.

1437
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:26,920
You really, it serves an interest for society to protect officers.

1438
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:30,560
And frankly, that's what I do in my office.

1439
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:38,160
My job, my mission, my call is to defend police officers, not to defend the bad apples per

1440
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:42,960
se in the sense that I'm trying to keep officers on the job.

1441
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:43,960
They shouldn't be there.

1442
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:46,880
But the point is everyone has to play by the rules.

1443
01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:55,720
And if you want to get an officer out of that career, you need to play by the rules if that's

1444
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:56,720
what you want to do.

1445
01:41:56,720 --> 01:42:04,080
So I would just say that that's a significant issue that I think people need to really consider.

1446
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:07,440
Just one more area I want to slide in before the closing questions.

1447
01:42:07,440 --> 01:42:12,560
It's become apparent that firstly, there's clearly a national recruitment crisis in the

1448
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:14,760
first responder professions.

1449
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:19,360
On the fire side, specifically, as I mentioned, 56 hours a week, mandatory overtime, you're

1450
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,280
talking 80 hours a week plus.

1451
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:25,760
I think what is happening is firstly, you're losing people.

1452
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,740
They're hanging up their bunker gear sooner than they may have.

1453
01:42:29,740 --> 01:42:34,880
But secondly, young recruits, they have all the information available now.

1454
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:40,280
They can see the pay, the work week, the overtime, the impacts on marriages, all these kinds

1455
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:41,280
of things.

1456
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:44,880
They're going side by side with Amazon or whatever else they're looking at and going,

1457
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:47,160
yeah, I don't think that sounds very good.

1458
01:42:47,160 --> 01:42:53,160
So for me, I think it's a beautiful opportunity for us to finally change the things that we

1459
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:54,240
need to change.

1460
01:42:54,240 --> 01:43:00,520
Because when you have a thousand applicants and you get to take a hundred of that thousand,

1461
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:03,340
arguably you're probably getting some pretty good candidates.

1462
01:43:03,340 --> 01:43:08,000
When you have a hundred applicants, so you have to take all of them, to me, you're just

1463
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:12,760
making what we've discussed the last hour and a half even worse down the line.

1464
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:17,440
What is your perspective on the law enforcement recruitment at the moment through your eyes?

1465
01:43:17,440 --> 01:43:21,840
And what are some of the issues facing your profession that we can change?

1466
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:23,800
Oh, absolutely.

1467
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:28,520
Yeah, you sound very well there with regard to the challenge.

1468
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:40,040
The pool is diminishing pretty quickly and to the point about the way you asked earlier

1469
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:50,200
about that sense of family that's being lost by the way officers are being treated by the

1470
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:54,760
department and going back to this mandate issue.

1471
01:43:54,760 --> 01:44:02,760
When you have the organization not playing by the rules with regard to how the officers

1472
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:04,960
are being disciplined.

1473
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:06,800
They're not saying it's discipline.

1474
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:11,720
They literally just changed the condition of employment as the way they framed it.

1475
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:16,240
This is a new condition of employment unilaterally imposed.

1476
01:44:16,240 --> 01:44:21,600
If I was looking for a job and I was saying, let me go here to Los Angeles City, Los Angeles

1477
01:44:21,600 --> 01:44:22,600
Police Department.

1478
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:23,600
Oh, wait a minute.

1479
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:24,600
I get hired.

1480
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:27,840
I've been hired for the best 20 some odd years of my life.

1481
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:33,360
And then they say, hey, you got to take this experimental, whatever treatment.

1482
01:44:33,360 --> 01:44:36,760
And if you don't, you're fired.

1483
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:37,760
Similarly terminated.

1484
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:42,800
Or like you said, Amazon, I can go here or go to some other organization where they're

1485
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:47,840
going to treat me at least with some level of dignity.

1486
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:51,520
Why would I want to go work for this other company?

1487
01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:54,140
They don't adhere to labor code.

1488
01:44:54,140 --> 01:44:55,520
So it is creating a problem.

1489
01:44:55,520 --> 01:45:00,760
And by the way, this issue, James, I've actually raised it with some folks that I talked to

1490
01:45:00,760 --> 01:45:03,080
trying to convince them to do the right thing.

1491
01:45:03,080 --> 01:45:05,440
Falling on deaf ears at this point.

1492
01:45:05,440 --> 01:45:10,000
I hope somebody, I hope that changes, but I'm still praying it does.

1493
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:13,840
But yeah, it's going to clearly affect.

1494
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:21,840
People will look at the money and the pension and most police departments, I think in fire

1495
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:27,360
departments, I think are still offering defined benefit pension plans, which is good.

1496
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:29,440
And that's fine.

1497
01:45:29,440 --> 01:45:36,600
But if a person is going, wait a minute, how do they treat their people here?

1498
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:40,160
There's only so much that, you might get people that will come on the both of the academy,

1499
01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:44,800
but there's only so much of that abuse that they're going to take and then they're going

1500
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:45,800
to leave.

1501
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:49,980
Or they're just simply going to just apply elsewhere.

1502
01:45:49,980 --> 01:45:56,840
So yeah, I think if the city looking at what's the benefit to the city with regard to these

1503
01:45:56,840 --> 01:46:01,680
mandate cases, make things right, treat people right, and then try and encourage them to

1504
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:11,080
come on board for the reasons that would, people that you want to come to for the right

1505
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:12,080
reasons.

1506
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:15,080
They're coming here because they want to work for a organization that actually treats their

1507
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:16,200
people right.

1508
01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:22,280
And what that causes, it caused these people to go out and treat people in the community

1509
01:46:22,280 --> 01:46:24,040
the right way.

1510
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:27,760
I'll just throw this one last concept out.

1511
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:31,200
Procedural justice gets thrown around a lot.

1512
01:46:31,200 --> 01:46:35,040
There's external procedural justice and there's internal procedural justice.

1513
01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:39,800
So you just mentioned, James, the challenges for recruitment.

1514
01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:41,200
That's a problem.

1515
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:49,120
But if you treat people internally, the internal procedural justice with a lack of respect,

1516
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:54,360
a lack of dignity, that translates into the way these same folks go out, firefighters

1517
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:56,480
and police, treat people in the community.

1518
01:46:56,480 --> 01:46:59,280
That's the external procedural justice.

1519
01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:06,360
And it's just healthy for society to treat their police and firearm, frankly, all folks

1520
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:09,700
that are working in government service.

1521
01:47:09,700 --> 01:47:15,120
It serves society's interest to treat them with dignity and respect.

1522
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:21,280
One of the knee jerk responses I get to fixing the manning issue, the staffing issue in the

1523
01:47:21,280 --> 01:47:23,920
fire service is like, well, we can't hire people now.

1524
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:27,400
And it's like, because yes, you can't because it gets what we just said, they look in at

1525
01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:30,880
what you're offering and they go and no, thank you.

1526
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:34,520
But they also go, well, we don't have the money to hire more because you have to create

1527
01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:35,520
a D shift.

1528
01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:36,880
That would be a fourth shift.

1529
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:41,920
And again, it's not an entire shift, you give away Kelly days or some vacation days or whatever.

1530
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:44,600
So there would be a slight trade off.

1531
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:49,080
But when you actually ask, well, how much do you pay on overtime every year?

1532
01:47:49,080 --> 01:47:54,080
Like my department where I'm sitting now, the county, it's millions at the moment covering

1533
01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:55,080
overtime.

1534
01:47:55,080 --> 01:48:00,240
So that alone, not counting workman's comp claims and medical disability and wrongful

1535
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:03,840
death and then the line of duty death benefits.

1536
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:06,760
But that being said, I don't know if you've got a kind of lens on this.

1537
01:48:06,760 --> 01:48:09,440
The one other thing that people don't talk about is lawsuits.

1538
01:48:09,440 --> 01:48:11,040
The medic pushes the wrong drug.

1539
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:16,760
The fire engine hits a minivan and intersection the cop, you know, roughs someone up too much.

1540
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:19,380
What are the dollar amounts of some of these lawsuits?

1541
01:48:19,380 --> 01:48:24,160
Because that in itself, again, is a preventative element if you've got a higher trained, more

1542
01:48:24,160 --> 01:48:26,840
well rested first responder.

1543
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:27,840
Absolutely.

1544
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:30,060
Oh, absolutely.

1545
01:48:30,060 --> 01:48:37,120
If you have people that are trained properly, again, in your area where again, they're pushing

1546
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:45,440
the wrong drug or you have an officer who's just literally pushed himself or herself and

1547
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:49,800
with regard to they're not getting sufficient sleep and the overtime has gotten kind of

1548
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:55,560
crazy and then because of that, they don't really process what their proper options are

1549
01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:57,000
during use of force.

1550
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:03,920
Yeah, those are very real numbers that the city or county or state or whatever agency

1551
01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:07,040
they're with needs to evaluate.

1552
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:11,960
And those kinds of things are thrown out there, but it's a difficult analysis to make because

1553
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:16,240
it's always like after the fact, okay, so yeah, we had to write a check for 13 and a

1554
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:24,200
half million bucks for this guy who was shot and shouldn't have been shot or like you mentioned,

1555
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:25,900
they're pushing the wrong drugs.

1556
01:49:25,900 --> 01:49:29,880
So now we're going to, we start doing the training.

1557
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:36,600
Well, gee, that's not going to have any real impact on the organization for months if we're

1558
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:39,680
fortunate, probably years.

1559
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:47,640
So then you have people that have come in, they'll be purveyors of certain training.

1560
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:48,640
Is that really going to be effective?

1561
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:51,160
Well, we're not going to know.

1562
01:49:51,160 --> 01:49:53,280
Not for months or years.

1563
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:59,160
And then trying to change culture is very difficult.

1564
01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:04,160
We've always done things a certain way here with regard to like you were saying, the overtime.

1565
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:08,640
And I'm sure you have folks like with the fire department who are used to getting those

1566
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:11,280
large overtime checks, right?

1567
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:15,440
And then, you know, well, that's just kind of the way we've always done things.

1568
01:50:15,440 --> 01:50:18,480
So yeah, but we want you to be well, you know, better rested.

1569
01:50:18,480 --> 01:50:23,120
Oh, I want the money, you know, you have those issues.

1570
01:50:23,120 --> 01:50:29,560
And how much, you know, the collective bargaining units, the unions, are they on board with

1571
01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:34,600
making these changes to make sure that their folks are better rested?

1572
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:35,600
It's difficult.

1573
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:41,040
It is a very, very difficult multifaceted problem.

1574
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:45,080
With the money, because obviously economically, yeah, if you work more and more money, you

1575
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:47,560
know, you're going to make, you know, if you work more rounds, you're going to make more

1576
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:48,560
money.

1577
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:50,640
You know, if you want to make even more, then go be a prostitute on the side and you can

1578
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:51,640
make even more money.

1579
01:50:51,640 --> 01:50:55,720
There's a certain line where the money ceases to be the biggest thing in your life.

1580
01:50:55,720 --> 01:51:00,800
But what I always tell people is that right now in the fire schedule, you've got 24 72.

1581
01:51:00,800 --> 01:51:04,200
So you've got two days because it's not that second day isn't a day off.

1582
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:06,120
You work eight hours by that point.

1583
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,440
So you've got two days off.

1584
01:51:08,440 --> 01:51:10,540
You became a lawyer.

1585
01:51:10,540 --> 01:51:16,800
There are 1000 other things that a first responder can do to also make money, a passion project

1586
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:21,040
that not only will create a side income where they still get to go to bed every night, which

1587
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:22,840
is super important.

1588
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:28,840
But secondly, whether it's after five years or 35 years, when they finally decide to pack

1589
01:51:28,840 --> 01:51:33,800
it in or they get fired or whatever happens, now you've got this other thing that you can

1590
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:34,800
transition to.

1591
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,280
Now you've got this other tribe that you already feel like you belong to.

1592
01:51:38,280 --> 01:51:44,320
So wanting all your money to come from overtime at the fire service is is wrong in so many

1593
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:45,320
different ways.

1594
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:48,840
Firstly, you should only be working a 42 hour week, full stop.

1595
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:52,240
You know, you go to a bank and say, yeah, you're gonna be working 56 hours a week and

1596
01:51:52,240 --> 01:51:54,080
you're not sleeping every third day.

1597
01:51:54,080 --> 01:51:56,640
Every applicant walk out the back door or the front door, they wouldn't let him out

1598
01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:57,640
the back.

1599
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:02,240
But you know, so we've created this complete fallacy that this is kind of, you know, golden

1600
01:52:02,240 --> 01:52:06,560
goose, but it's the expense of so many people that we bury.

1601
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:09,120
So even on the money point of view, you need more money.

1602
01:52:09,120 --> 01:52:10,120
That's great.

1603
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:14,560
You know, you love carpentry or you're a landscaper or whatever it is, then go and do that on the

1604
01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:18,120
side on your days off because you're going to be glad that you're not riding a rescue

1605
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:22,200
or stuck in a fire station for another 24 hours when you actually start doing it.

1606
01:52:22,200 --> 01:52:27,640
So every single pushback that I've seen, there is a perfectly logical explanation.

1607
01:52:27,640 --> 01:52:32,320
You've just got to drag someone far enough away so they can actually see the indoctrination

1608
01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:33,320
that they grew up in.

1609
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:44,000
Yeah, I, yeah, and it's again, I don't want to, I would never impose my life plan on somebody

1610
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:51,760
else, but I distinctly remember in fact one in particular individual who was, you know,

1611
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:58,000
just pushing this, I won't even be gender specific, it's this person's self with regard

1612
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:00,040
to overtime.

1613
01:53:00,040 --> 01:53:05,960
So if a person really feels, you know, that they need, like you said, more money, there

1614
01:53:05,960 --> 01:53:12,600
are other things they can do, but the reality is as a template, yeah, you're right, 56 hours

1615
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:13,600
a week.

1616
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:16,600
I mean, how sustainable is that?

1617
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:23,160
And you know, with old officers, I distinctly remember like during the riots how, you know,

1618
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:28,600
working the crazy hours that we were at the time and other times, but that's the one that

1619
01:53:28,600 --> 01:53:32,600
comes to mind where you have the sleep deprivation issues.

1620
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:39,120
It's just not healthy, but having it like, this is how we do things, 56 hours across

1621
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:45,400
the board, defaulting to that, it would be good if somebody would take a hard look at

1622
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:53,840
that and say, no, let's just, let's make this more doable so firefighters can have a more

1623
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:58,240
reasonable expectation of having a life.

1624
01:53:58,240 --> 01:53:59,240
Yeah.

1625
01:53:59,240 --> 01:54:00,240
Absolutely.

1626
01:54:00,240 --> 01:54:01,240
All right.

1627
01:54:01,240 --> 01:54:04,920
To the closing questions then, the first one I love to ask, is there a book or are there

1628
01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:07,080
books that you love to recommend?

1629
01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:12,400
They can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1630
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:19,000
So the first book, I think the perfect source of wisdom is in fact the Bible.

1631
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:24,200
That's something that I think people will have it sitting on their shelf, but you know,

1632
01:54:24,200 --> 01:54:30,160
cracking it open and reading it literally on a daily basis, not just on a daily basis,

1633
01:54:30,160 --> 01:54:37,400
but actually on an as needed basis, I think is probably the best source of wisdom, getting

1634
01:54:37,400 --> 01:54:47,360
it like literally directly from the creator of the universe.

1635
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:53,360
Another book that I just recently have kind of gotten back into was Common Sense, Thomas

1636
01:54:53,360 --> 01:54:56,600
Payne.

1637
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:05,720
I think that looking at the current situation we're in right now, case in point, just kind

1638
01:55:05,720 --> 01:55:10,920
of confronting situations that are just not right.

1639
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:18,000
He deals primarily with tyranny and pushback on tyranny, but I think it speaks to the larger

1640
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:19,960
issue of just simply speaking out.

1641
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:24,160
Those are the first two books that come to mind.

1642
01:55:24,160 --> 01:55:25,160
Brilliant.

1643
01:55:25,160 --> 01:55:27,080
Next up, we have a couple films and documentaries.

1644
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:29,440
Oh, thank you.

1645
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:30,440
Yes.

1646
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:31,440
Judgment in Nuremberg.

1647
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:32,440
Wow.

1648
01:55:32,440 --> 01:55:34,880
If you have, I've got a couple.

1649
01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:43,040
Judgment in Nuremberg is one if you have ever had, and you can buy the, this is free stuff

1650
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:45,080
and I like free by the way.

1651
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:53,120
So it's on, if you can't find it, shoot me an email, but you can find it online and it

1652
01:55:53,120 --> 01:55:54,120
is.

1653
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:58,760
In fact, William Shatner, Captain Kirk, he has a little, it's more than a cameo, but

1654
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:04,800
it's not a cameo, but he has a bit part because this is before he was really known.

1655
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:17,720
But it deals with the trial of the judges and their failures to honor natural law essentially,

1656
01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:23,520
and again, that's my paraphrase, but beautiful, beautiful.

1657
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:29,640
Kind of a docudrama, but if you actually look at the transcripts from many of these proceedings,

1658
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:35,200
pretty close to, they tried to stay, I think, close to what actually occurred.

1659
01:56:35,200 --> 01:56:44,560
And the other one is Justice for All, which is a late 70s movie that deals with essentially

1660
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:54,960
the abuse of power by the judicial system, which again can happen with any, I don't want

1661
01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:57,920
to badmouth judges, I'm definitely not doing that.

1662
01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:05,920
You have attorneys that abuse their position, you have cops, firefighters, but that particular

1663
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:08,400
movie dealt with the judge.

1664
01:57:08,400 --> 01:57:09,400
Brilliant.

1665
01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:10,400
All right.

1666
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:15,160
Well, then the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1667
01:57:15,160 --> 01:57:20,000
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1668
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:21,000
world?

1669
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:26,640
Yeah, well, I'm assuming you already had George Ryan.

1670
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:27,640
Yes.

1671
01:57:27,640 --> 01:57:30,520
Yeah, I was supposed to do another one.

1672
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:32,000
I think I'm just waiting for the right time.

1673
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:35,960
I know he's got all kinds of stuff going on, but yeah, I hope they'll get him back on again

1674
01:57:35,960 --> 01:57:38,000
one day.

1675
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:41,680
This guy's going to kill me, but I'm going to put him out there.

1676
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:43,160
Tyler Eisen.

1677
01:57:43,160 --> 01:57:52,120
Yeah, if you can get him on, you will benefit greatly from his insight and thoughts.

1678
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:54,760
Interesting, very interesting guy.

1679
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:56,880
Love him dearly.

1680
01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:01,600
And my academy classmate, I think he will provide some really good insights in these

1681
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:02,600
issues we talked about.

1682
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:03,600
Brilliant.

1683
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:06,480
Yeah, if you're able to help me make the connection, that would be amazing.

1684
01:58:06,480 --> 01:58:08,240
We'll see if we can try.

1685
01:58:08,240 --> 01:58:09,880
I'll twist his arm.

1686
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:10,880
Perfect.

1687
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:11,880
All right.

1688
01:58:11,880 --> 01:58:14,320
Well, then the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you, what

1689
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:16,320
do you do to decompress?

1690
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:17,320
Kayak.

1691
01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:22,640
In fact, you probably can't see behind me, but the river is out there.

1692
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:30,240
And like I said, I came to help facilitate my daughter's property acquisition.

1693
01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:38,240
So if I can get out there for about an hour, I love doing that.

1694
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:43,840
And obviously, first and foremost, praying and spending some time reading God's word

1695
01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:47,000
is probably the most valuable for true decompression.

1696
01:58:47,000 --> 01:58:50,600
But physically, kayaking does it for me.

1697
01:58:50,600 --> 01:58:51,600
Brilliant.

1698
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:52,600
All right.

1699
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:57,400
So if people listening want to reach out to you, where are the best places online?

1700
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:02,360
I do have a website, which by the way, it's kind of embarrassing.

1701
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:08,480
We've had it up for probably, oh, I guess, 12, 13 years, but it's very plain.

1702
01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:16,000
You can shoot me an email and I'm on the, again, I've got the website, but my email

1703
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:20,760
address is my first name, Greg, at Greg Yacoubian Law.

1704
01:59:20,760 --> 01:59:26,240
So it's the first name, first name, last name, but just add law.com.

1705
01:59:26,240 --> 01:59:33,000
And email is probably the best way to make initial contact.

1706
01:59:33,000 --> 01:59:39,600
And yeah, I'm always available to chat about public safety, defense.

1707
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:41,600
That's what I love to do.

1708
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:42,600
Brilliant.

1709
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:44,240
Well, Greg, I want to say thank you so much.

1710
01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:46,960
It's been, as always, such a great conversation.

1711
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:53,960
We've been all over the place, you know, unpacking some of the more notorious moments in LAPD.

1712
01:59:53,960 --> 01:59:57,360
But then, you know, as you said, some of the powerful sides as well.

1713
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:03,200
But I think this element with the mandates and just, again, standing on the other side

1714
02:00:03,200 --> 02:00:05,700
and looking back and going, okay, what did we learn?

1715
02:00:05,700 --> 02:00:06,700
What can we change?

1716
02:00:06,700 --> 02:00:08,600
You know, that's such an important conversation.

1717
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:12,400
Brushing it under the rug, saying, oh, let's just pretend it never happened is the worst

1718
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:13,400
thing you can do.

1719
02:00:13,400 --> 02:00:16,440
Just like, as I mentioned, you know, the near miss at Disney Springs.

1720
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:20,760
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and coming on

1721
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:21,760
Behind the Shield podcast.

1722
02:00:21,760 --> 02:00:22,760
Thank you, James.

1723
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:25,440
God bless you so much for the work you're doing.