This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you
that are in the military, first responder or medical professions.
In an effort to give back, Thorne is now offering you an ongoing 35% off each and every one
of your purchases of their incredible nutritional solutions.
Now Thorn is the official supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic, the Human Performance
Project and multiple special operations organizations.
I myself have used them for several years and that is why I brought them on as a sponsor.
Some of my favorite products they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their Whey Protein,
the Super EPA and then most recently, Cynaquil.
As a firefighter, a stuntman and a martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma
and sleep deprivation and Cynaquil is their latest brain health supplement.
Now to qualify for the 35% off, go to thorn.com, T-H-O-R-N-E dot com.
Click on sign in and then create a new account.
You will see the opportunity to register as a first responder or member of military.
When you click on that, it will take you through verification with GovX.
You'll simply choose a profession, provide one piece of documentation and then you are
verified for life.
From that point onwards, you will continue to receive 35% off through Thorn.
Now for those of you who don't qualify, there is still the 10% off using the code BTS10,
Behind the Shield 10 for a one-time purchase.
Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with
Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.
This episode is sponsored by a company I've literally been using for over 15 years now
and that is 511.
Now my introduction to their products began when I started wearing 511 uniforms years
ago for Anaheim Fire Department.
And since then I have acquired a host of their backpacks and luggage which have literally
been around the world with me.
The backpack where I keep all my recording equipment is a 511 backpack and then most
of my civilian gear, the clothes that I wear are also 511.
Now more recently they've actually branched out into the brick and mortar stores.
So for example Gainesville where I do jiu-jitsu has a beautiful 511 store.
So if you are a fire department, a law enforcement agency, you now have access to an entire inventory
of clothing and equipment in these 511 stores.
Now I've talked about the range of shoes they have and how important minimizing weight in
our footwear is when it comes to our back health, knee health, etc.
I've talked about their unique uniforms that are fitted for either male or female first
responders.
And then I want to highlight one new area, their Cloudstrike packs.
For those of you who enjoy hiking, this would even be an application I believe for the wildland
community.
They've created an ultralight pack now with a hydration system built in for rucking, running
or other long distance events.
Now as always 511 is offering you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 15% off
every purchase that you make.
So if you use the code SHIELD15, that's S-H-I-E-L-D-1-5 at 511tactical.com, you will get that 15%
off every single time.
So if you want to hear more about 511 and their origin story, go to episode 338 of Behind
the Shield podcast with their CEO Francisco Morales.
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always.
My name is James Gearing.
And this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, former Pennsylvania State Trooper
and Operation Enduring Warrior alumni, Alex Douglas.
Now for those who don't recognize the name, Alex was one of two troopers that was ambushed
back in 2014.
His fellow trooper Brian Dixon was murdered.
And although Alex survived the incident, he ultimately had to amputate one of his legs.
So we discuss a host of topics from his own journey into law enforcement, how the events
unfolded that day, the manhunt that led to the capture of the murderer, Alex's physical
and mental recovery, the decision to amputate, how meeting Earl Granville led him to be one
of the first OEW law enforcement honorees and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredibly powerful conversation, as I say every week, please
just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find.
And this is a free library of over 950 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Alex Douglas.
Enjoy.
Well Alex, I want to start by saying firstly, thank you to you for coming on the Behind
the Shield podcast and also thank you to Earl Granville who I met at the OEW gala again
recently and he was adamant that I needed to connect with you and bring you on the show.
So welcome.
Thank you very much for having me.
So where on planet earth are we finding you today?
I'm actually at my residence today for once then next week I go out to Oklahoma for an
event and so on and so forth.
So I'm kind of like Earl, I know you spoke to Earl, he always travels a lot so kind of
like the same way.
Absolutely.
All right, well then I would have to start at the very beginning of your timeline then.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings?
So I was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
That's where I grew up.
I still live pretty close to the area, it's only like 20 minutes away from where I'm at
now.
My father was a school teacher, my mom was a stay at home mom.
I have one older brother who's three years older than I am.
He resides in Long Island, New York and he's also a school teacher.
Nobody except my grandfather was in the military.
Nobody in our family was a police officer except for me.
I heard you on the Freedoms Pulse podcast talking about your granddad and how that kind
of inspired you to join the uniform professions.
What conflict was he in and what were some of the stories he would tell you when you
were younger?
So he was a lieutenant colonel in World War II in charge of the gunnery division and he
was a lifelong military career individual.
When he passed away I was only about seven years old so I didn't really get to sit down
and talk to him about detailed stuff.
My dad kind of fills me in a lot on what he went through with my grandfather and everything
like that, traveling and different forts like Fort Bragg.
They had to live there for a while.
My dad was still very proud of my grandfather and still tells the stories about him and
everything like that.
He was very inspiring to me personally.
I kind of have that mentality of either wanting to do something with the military or law enforcement
or something like that to that aspect just because like I said he kind of encouraged
me and motivated me to do that kind of career.
When we talk about the World War II generation and we just had the eight-year anniversary
of the Normandy landing, the rhetoric normally is that they were the greatest generation
and they came back and they rolled up their sleeves and they made America great.
But then when you actually get to speak to either the children of or in some cases I've
sat down with World War II veterans, you realize that no, there was absolutely a cost, especially
for some of these men and women that were on the front line.
That was kind of suppressed and then now we finally start talking about mental health
and we're like, oh yeah, but you guys can't because you're the greatest generation.
You just need to carry on being awesome.
So did you ever hear any state stories relayed by your father of the impact of the war that
he served in?
Nothing specifically.
Kind of like you said, I think a lot of those guys, they kind of held it in.
Like you said, rolled their sleeves up and went to work and when he came back, he rode
out the rest of his, I think, 25 years in that military career and then he became a
IRS agent and I think a postal worker.
So like I said, I think he just kind of rolled his sleeves up and moved forward.
And then kind of you probably spoke to a couple Vietnam vets and so on and so forth and you
kind of see how the generations, the mental effect of war kind of hits them different.
You know, like I spoke to a bunch of Vietnam vets and a lot of them are kind of disturbed
over what they've seen, what they've experienced over in Vietnam.
And then you see like today's generation, you know, how it messes.
I think it's just, I don't know what has changed, but it seems like the mental effect has gotten
worse, unfortunately.
Well, then as you call it, as everyone calls it, the greatest generation, you know.
Yeah.
Well, I think the one thing that I would assume happened in the 40s is that because we were
all pulled into it, especially, you know, my country originally, we were being bombed
by the Germans, you know, in America, you know, Pearl Harbor obviously was the only
attack on quote unquote American soil.
But you know, the rest of the world, they were occupied and invaded or, you know, being
blitzed.
And so I think there was this resounding sense of relief and this resounding sense of gratitude
for all the allied nations.
But then you have Korea.
I mean, I feel bad for that generation that went over there.
And I've just learned a little bit more about it.
I mean, they literally saved Korea.
The North Koreans were almost all the way through South Korea.
And it was again, the allies that pushed them all the way back.
And they came back, you know, to kind of like shoulder shrugging.
And then the Vietnam vets came back to being spat and being called baby killers.
So that homecoming element is important.
And now you've got our most recent veterans like Earl, who fought for anywhere from one
to 20 years.
And then they see things like, you know, Iraq going back to the way it was or the horrendous
Afghan withdrawal that we had and, you know, leaving our allies and our interpreters.
So I think that the biggest part is not only the war itself, but how we treated not only
our soldiers, but our allies, you know, once we left.
Yeah, no, I agree.
100% of Korea's what do they call it?
The forgotten war, basically, you know, and if you really kind of got deep into it or
read books or seen movies on it, those guys have went through hell to, you know, just
like the World War two guys.
But, you know, sadly enough, you know, a lot of them, that war is kind of forgotten, unfortunately,
you know.
Absolutely.
Well, going back to your early life, what about sports and athletics?
What were you doing and playing?
So I played football in high school and I did track and field.
Then I got into like powerlifting and stuff like that later on in high school.
And then after that, I graduated.
I went to the University of Scranton and took finance and economics and graduated in four
years with two bachelor degrees.
And I didn't play any sports in college.
I just kind of focused on my graduate studies.
When you look back now, and I always ask people this, you played a team sport and then arguably
an individual sport, even though you were part of a team when you're on that platform
lifting or, you know, with you're on the track, you know, no one else is pushing you while
you're running, for example.
What did you take away from the team element?
What did you take away from the individual element of the sports you did as a child?
So I mean, being a team member is definitely important.
You spoke to Earl.
He talks a lot about, you know, being a team member and kind of growing up, that's what
I was taught to be.
Win or lose, you're still a team member.
You help your teammates out no matter what.
And, you know, you play your heart out, you know, and that's what I gathered from doing
in all sports, track and field and, you know, football.
You're still a team member no matter what you win or lose.
You're still helping each other out and you're still, you know, it's your friend, it's your
buddy next to you, you know.
What about the individual side?
I mean, for example, a lot of the people that were runners and my son was one miler, you
know, you're on your own.
And the only thing that you're really fighting is that voice in your head saying slow down
or stop.
Yeah, like our daughter just started track this year and, you know, surprisingly she
did really well.
She broke some records and everything like that.
And she I told her, you know, when you're running by yourself like that and especially
against other teams, you know, other different teams, you really as an individual, that mentality
just has to kick in of, you know, I want to win, I want to be the best and I want to try
my heart out.
And that's how I always, you know, grew up.
And that's what I told her.
And I hope that she kind of took that inside her and that's what pushed her a little bit.
We mentioned about doing finance in university, you know, but you also talked about being
inspired to be in uniform by your grandfather.
What was that initial career aspiration and how did that make a turn into law enforcement?
So, I went, like I said, for finance and economics at the university.
A couple of times I would go for internships in New York City and Philadelphia with these
financial companies.
And I would see a lot of these guys just sitting in cubicles, sitting there crunching numbers
all day.
And I'm like, you know, that's not for me.
I got to be a hands on type of person.
But like I said, even before I started college, that was 2001.
And I was a freshman when 9-11 happened.
And right off the bat, I wanted to go into the military.
My father said, like, don't go into the military.
It's kind of like it's going to be like Vietnam for how it was for us.
It's going to be your Vietnam.
This war is going to be bad.
You know, guys are going to be getting killed and everything like that.
You're safer if you go to school and do something safe.
And I said, well, how about like I'd be a police officer?
And he said that's that's he said that quote unquote, that's safe.
You should do that.
You know, if you want to do that, do that.
And our neighbor was actually joined in the state police at the time.
This was about 2004.
So I was about a junior in college at the time when I kind of switched over and decided
that's kind of what I wanted to do.
And I started testing for the state police, the Pennsylvania State Police.
And as I started testing, I went right through the process.
And it was literally my senior year.
I took my last final exam on a Friday and I went into the State Police Academy in Hershey,
Pennsylvania on Sunday.
So it was a big change, a quick change from college life to what they call a paramilitary
organization type of life.
I worked on a summer camp for six years and I think it was one of the first years I was
there.
There's this beautiful blonde girl and she was from Hershey, Pennsylvania.
And she talked about the kind of chocolate theme park that were there.
I'm assuming your experience was a little less enjoyable.
So talk to me about what your academy looked like from the state trooper point of view.
So yeah, we did a lot of physical, we did a lot of book work and everything like that.
And they kind of critiqued it as, you know, like the Citadel Academy in South Carolina
or West Point in New York where you had a lot of book work, but you had a lot of physical
hands on stuff that you were doing.
But yeah, to mention what you just said, I still remember to this day and that was over
almost 20 years ago where, you know, you could smell the chocolate.
You know, we're up where the Academy was is up on a hill right next to where their chocolate
factory is.
And you could smell the chocolate.
You could hear the park across the street, the people playing in the summer because I
started in the Academy in May and I was there the whole summer until December.
And you know, it was just mentally it was hard because you saw these people having fun
and going on vacation, but you're stuck there doing the training, you know.
So so yeah, that definitely brings back memories from what you were just saying.
I just want to underline.
I said I met a girl at a summer camp.
It was one of the counselors, not one of the children.
This one sound like a pedo for a second.
So talk to me then about the baseline physical fitness, defensive tactics.
Like, what were you guys being taught the front door?
So we would do a lot of running.
We started out just with a mile.
We started easing into it and we worked our way up to almost like eight mile runs towards
the end of the Archimedes Academy stint.
We did a lot of as a police officer, patrol tactics, self-defense tactics like Brazilian
Jiu Jitsu type, you know, self-defense.
We they have an indoor swimming pool.
So you're doing a lot of swimming, tactical stuff inside the pool.
They actually taught us to take off our shirts, our work shirts and make actually a flotation
device out of those shirts, which is kind of cool, you know, in case you had to rescue
somebody.
And a lot of it, like I said, was book work.
But the physical aspect we did what we call like police skills where you're doing a lot
of pit maneuvers and patrol vehicles.
Then you had the range aspect of it where you're constantly every day shooting and firing
different types of weapons and everything like that, different targets and different
scenarios.
What have you seen?
Obviously, we're kind of spanning further forward now, but what have you seen as far
as the even the the will be the right word, the metamorphosis of those skills?
I mean, you mentioned Jiu Jitsu in 2004, 2005, that's actually very progressive for a law
enforcement agency.
What is what has grown out of that initial experience that you had?
Are you saying for myself personally or just in the in the in the training side?
Because I mean, we've got this conversation about defund and all this stuff, and they're
literally trying to push the law enforcement community backwards 50 years.
But it sounds like you're in a very diligent environment when you're swimming or all this
physical fitness.
It sounds like you've got more progressive defensive tactics at the front door.
What was that kind of evolution that you witnessed once you were in that that law enforcement
agency?
So in my opinion, I mean, from what I've experienced, this is 2005.
I mean, our academy from I haven't been there to personally witness, but like from friends
of mine that actually teach there and work there at the academy, they said our tactical
program has definitely increased in a good way, more advanced and everything like that.
And I think over the years from from what I've heard from older guys that retired back
in the 1980s and 90s and stuff like that and what they went through, we definitely improved
our skills.
But then again, like you said, right now you're looking at all these people videotaping in,
you know, you got to look out for that kind of stuff.
And when I went through the academy, there is half the stuff that we were taught back
then wouldn't fly right now.
I mean, you'd be lambasted right now because of all that.
You know, like you said, defunct the police and all this other stuff that nonsense that's
going on, you know.
So I don't know exactly what they're teaching them down there on how to deal with that.
But it's kind of a scary situation, you know, because not only are you you know, you're
out there protecting others, protecting yourself and your your, you know, coworkers, but you're
double thinking and triple thinking on what kind of move you're going to make next based
on, you know, am I going to be lamb based in the media or, you know, am I going to be
videotaped?
And then, you know, everyone, you know, everyone's going to be you're going to be that person,
you know what I mean on the news that that everyone's like, oh, why did he do that?
Or what did he do that for?
You know, and it's just I think it's just a bad situation right now for us.
You know?
Yeah, no, it is.
It's so sad.
And the answer is support and training and putting, you know, hiring standards back up
where they belong so you don't start hiring people that are truly going to be a problem
down the road.
But if you take away the funding, take away the support, that's exactly what people are
going to get.
Yeah, you're not going to get that, you know, that group.
And I kind of I saw it with like with our, you know, state police, the Pennsylvania state
police now there, you know, they had to lower some of their standards because I guess they're
not getting enough applicants.
And I don't know how that's going.
I don't know what kind of, you know, applicants are going to be getting.
But if you lower your standards, like you said, you're not going to be getting that
quality person that you've gotten before based on the higher standards, you know, unfortunately.
And I think it's it's a mixed of, you know, decreased of funding and, you know, people
just don't want to do the job because they see what's going on now.
You know, a lot of police officers like I said before, my father said, you know, this
is like this past war, like Afghanistan and Iraq is like they're Vietnam, you know, and
it's almost like the police and I talked to Earl about this all the time.
And he's like, it's like the police are like it's like, you know, when the Vietnam vets
were coming back from Vietnam and they were spit on and, you know, you know, called different
names and baby killers and all that, you know, it's kind of like that's how kind of how the
police are right now, you know, how people look at the police, you know, it's it's a
very negative point of view, I think, you know, it's scary.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting as well, because, I mean, we have the same conversation, the
fire service and for us, we're not viewed the same way as you guys are.
We still have an element of that respect, you know, an admiration, even though you and
I do the same exact job side by side, obviously different skill set.
But you know, we're on the same streets.
But, you know, for us, it's the work environment, our firefighters are being worked into the
ground, you know, and that's affecting everything from mental health, physical health, to relationships.
And the same thing, young people looking going, that doesn't sound so good.
And the money shit, you know, so the way that you fix that is not to lower standards, it's
to fix the things that are broken.
And the same with law enforcement and not just focus on law enforcement, fix the things
that are creating bad people in our society, because they all started off as a toddler
once.
You don't get a kid coming out going, I'm going to be a murderer, you know, they want
to be a police officer and a firefighter and a teacher and a doctor.
And so we're, you know, we're ruining these young children, which is creating so much
crime on our streets.
But by lowering the standard, I think a perfect analogy would be lifeguard.
Lower the lower the swimming standards for lifeguard.
Can you swim?
Well, I can fucking doggy paddle a little bit.
All right, you're in beautiful.
You know what I mean?
It's ridiculous when you put it into another profession.
That's the same for police and fire.
Yeah, it's so true.
Good point.
You know, we're going back to your your journey.
And so you come out of the academy, where are you assigned?
And what is your rookie experience?
So I was first assigned in a county in Pennsylvania called Schoolkill County.
It was about 60 minutes from my hometown of Scranton.
And at the time, our contract stated that we had to spend about three years in that
troop before we could transfer out.
So I spent about three years down in that area.
And then when it was time, I, you know, put my transfer card in and was transferred up
to Pike County, which is the northeast part of the state of Pennsylvania.
And that's where I, you know, remained most of my career when I was both in Schoolkill
County and Pike County.
I worked mostly midnight shifts.
And when we worked midnight shifts, it was always two guys, two troopers in a vehicle
at night.
So what's your thoughts on that?
This is something I've discussed and bear in mind, I'm a firefighter, a paramedic, not
a police officer.
But if you wrote down on a piece of paper, OK, here's what, here's how we organize our
police officers in this city.
You know, one is in a car and they go because we want to get more cars on the road.
But you've got a certain individual that rolls up to two people, domestic violence, traffic
stop and they're on their own.
To the layman eyes, in my opinion, that seems like insanity.
If you're not within the profession, we've always done it that way.
It seems insane.
And you've got a unique perspective because you had an experience of both.
If you're on days, you're in, I'm assuming on your own.
If you're at nights, you've got to do a car.
What is your philosophy on having two to a vehicle as a force multiplier in the world
of law enforcement?
I mean, having two in a vehicle is definitely safer all around.
I personally felt safer with somebody with me, no matter who the person was.
I mean, it's always better to have two people.
The other thing, I think, like going back to how we are, how society is now, if you
have two people in a vehicle, you have somebody else who can witness what's going on, because
I think today you kind of need that, you know, just how society is and how they react against
police or even fire or EMS, you know, you hear about like the EMS was it wasn't too
long ago.
We're there ambush, weren't they?
Somebody I believe they came to it.
Maybe it was a domestic or something like that, and they showed up first and poor guys
are ambushed.
I think a couple of them got killed, unfortunately, you know.
Yeah, it's scary, you know, but it's always better to have more than less, you know.
But like I said, I saw both ways.
I worked day shifts too, some of the time, and it would just be a different scenario.
You know, you'd have people, you'd be fighting with two different people if you went to a
domestic and you're by yourself, you would have the husband and wife jumping on your
back.
It's like, you don't know.
You know, so you're by yourself.
It's kind of scary, but you got to deal with what you got to deal with.
And fortunately, we had very good training going back to our academy and everything like
that on how to deal with it.
What is your view because you talked about jujitsu, you talked about physical fitness.
What is your perception of a well-trained officer, meaning they're in good physical
shape, they are confident in their combative skills as a deterrent to actually having to
go hands on because it seems like most of the law enforcement officers I've had that
fit that bill arguably have the less hands on experience.
And it makes perfect sense if you're pulled over by someone with a with cauliflower ears
that's in great shape.
You thinking you're going to fight that person, I would imagine, would diminish immensely.
Yeah, I mean, just having the physical build and the physical look as if someone's in shape,
you know, will deter that individual usually, you know, unless they're on some type of narcotic
as I've dealt with that before, too, where they just don't carry their way.
And, you know, that, you know, having being in that physical shape and looking, you know,
somewhat intimidating, you know, will deter that individual from even thinking or even
going back to like how we're taught in the academy, like as long as you're, you know,
your uniforms, knee and pressed and you look squared away and you don't look like a slob,
you know, that also, you know, deters people.
But one of the most dangerous things is if you're a police officer, you're not experienced,
you know, if you're not if you personally, if you've never been in a fight before, that's
scary, you know, because you're not going to know what to do when it comes down to it.
If you're not in that shape, if you're overweight, and we see it so much that a lot of these
officers are overweight and out of shape.
And what even makes it scarier is when they don't really know what they're doing.
You know, they act like they know what they're doing, but they don't know what they're doing.
And I've encountered that before.
And that's what makes it even more scary, you know.
But yeah, just having that deterrence of, you know, being built, being in shape, they're
not going to usually, you know, nine out of 10 times somebody is not going to come after
you because they're going to know what they're going to get their ass kicked.
There was a video recently, I think it was in New York, this police officer and he had
someone partially cuffed and he tried to try to make a run for it.
And he flung him like a rag doll ended up in full mount, you know, and it was like, all
right, there's your training.
There's your fitness, you know, and that guy wasn't shot, you know, he's still survived.
He might be a little bruised up, but he's not dead.
But what scares me and we're talking about the training standards is when you bring those
standards down, police and fire, in my opinion, you actually increase the chance of a civilian
or a police officer dying because of that very preventative thing that we just talked
about.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's taking away their training that they need, you know.
No, I agree 100 percent on that.
Not just that, it's taken away their weapon tactics.
But yeah, more so the skill level, the hands on defense, it's taking away that kind of
stuff that they need out there, you know, and especially now with these people who want
to fight the police and, you know, they don't care, you know, they need it more now than
ever.
And it's being taken away, like you said, you know, it's unfortunate.
Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned about not having law enforcement and family.
What were some of the calls or aha moments that you started having?
Because I mean, you know, when you put the uniform on and, you know, traverse some of
the streets that we do, you see the real society, you know, where they say warts and all.
So were there any calls or kind of aha moments that you started having as the years progressed
that you were oblivious to as a civilian prior?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, there was a time right from my first year on, you know, the rate of suicides that
you never think really happens or how they happen or what they actually look like or,
you know, kids, middle aged people.
I had an 87 year old guy who shot his head off with a shotgun.
You know, it looked like a dummy, one of those mannequins at Walmart around Halloween, you
know, just had the skin kind of like hanging off no head on.
And it's kind of like unrealistic, you know.
And then the fatalities, that's another thing, you know, that we dealt with.
And I'm sure you guys deal with them with fire and EMS, you know, all different age
groups.
And it's, you know, it's a lot of them touch you, you know, internally, mentally, especially
if they're a younger, younger group of people that are involved in these tragic incidents,
you know, it's you go home, they always taught us in the academy, you know, don't bring work
home with you, shut it off, you know, when you leave work.
But you know, that's that's not true.
You go home and you're still thinking about it, you're thinking about it for weeks, you
know.
But there's specific incidents that, you know, still stick in my head this day that happened,
you know, 15, 16, 17 years ago, you know, that still have a place, you know, in my head.
And you still remember them, you can't turn that off, you know.
And that's stuff that you never being a citizen that you never knew really happened, you know,
and I try to explain it to my wife and stuff.
And she just, you know, she understands it, but she doesn't, you know what I mean?
Like she you have to be there to to witness it, you know, unfortunately, to fully understand
it.
100 percent.
I think that's what people don't understand.
You ask a firefighter, you know, what's the worst thing you've seen?
And you should never ask that question.
But it's not going to be many fires that cycle in our minds.
It's going to be the wrecks, mostly the wrecks.
Yeah.
So and this is what really kind of angers me, for lack of a better word.
So many of those are preventable and coming from a country where the driving test is extremely
hard.
Most people take two or three attempts to pass it.
And it's you know, you normally have a whole load of lessons with a professional driver
first teacher.
But they I mean, you just have to take a deep, deep dive into the why behind driving.
There's a lot of skills.
Yes.
But there's also, you know, understanding, sharing the road and why use a blinker and
why you keep distance and the changes in weather.
And I think if I got this right, I think the UK has per capita like a tenth of the fatalities
that we have, even though our roads are way more dangerous over there because you don't
have medians and barriers and any of that stuff.
And so I look at back in my career and all the deaths that we had and we lose 40,000
people every year in cars lose.
So obviously, hundreds of thousands of maimed, you know, no question about that.
I think it's five or six million actual accidents every year.
I have never, ever seen anyone, politician media talk about we should change the way
that we do driving, whether it's, you know, I mean, there could be a combination of things.
The actual age, I think I think personally is a little young for a child be behind a
death machine.
But the standards that we teach people like go look at a roundabout in America.
People have no fucking idea what they're doing.
You know, it's like this is the problem.
There's no education.
So you can't really blame the individual.
You know, it's like, again, in the ocean, like, do you need to swim?
Just go get wet.
You'll be fine.
You won't be fine.
I need to teach you how to swim and what rib ties that like and all these other things.
It's so easy to pass a driver's test here in the US.
I mean, I don't know if you had to take one here or not.
I did.
And it was a fucking joke.
Yeah.
Compared to what you were just talking about at the UK, you know, it's it really is.
They basically hand them out to anyone and everyone.
I think that's the problem.
You know.
So so what's your kind of perception on that?
Because I mean, you're on the roads even more than I was.
You know, what have there been any pushes to change things?
Because I feel like, again, it's just a bunch of shoulder shrugging like, oh, well, that's
what happens on the roads rather than someone going, you know, we can actually stop a lot
of these, right?
We can save a lot of these children that, you know, these teenagers that are dying because
they think they're too fast and too furious and these elderly people that, you know, are
pulling out in front of motorcycles.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, there are ways to actually reduce these numbers dramatically, but I've never
heard anyone discuss it.
Yeah, you know, that's it's a really good point.
It's a really good question.
I never actually even thought about it.
You know, usually I'm driving and I'm cursing up a storm because like you said, that old
person comes in front and usually when I say that person shouldn't have a license, you
know, or time to stop driving, you know, and that's I leave it at that.
But yeah, that's it.
No, that's a really good point.
And I never really even thought of that.
You know, the only thing that I've noticed, I mean, maybe in the past 20 years, they increased,
I believe the the so you get like your your driver's permit before you get your license
and you know, you're practicing with somebody who's I believe 18 or older in that vehicle
with you.
And you know, number one, I don't think an 18 year old should be teaching, you know,
16 year old how to drive.
I think it should be a lot older than that, maybe 25 or older type of person in that vehicle.
But besides that, it's you know, the mentality of some of these people, like it's not even
the driving skills.
They just go crazy in their head and they think they're, you know, they'll earn hard
or something, you know, and they think, you know, they they'll never die.
They'll live forever and they just go.
And that's that's the problem, you know.
But no, it's also the training, like the skill.
It's just so easy here in the US, like we said, to get a driver's license.
They basically hand them out to anyone and everyone without anything.
But the only thing I've seen, like I said, was they increased that permit, I believe
to go from the permit to the driver's license, that monthly span, that requirement that they
have, I believe.
I believe they increased it as far as I know.
And from what I've heard from other people, but other than that, they what's that really
going to do?
You know what I mean?
You're just increasing their time out on the road.
I mean, practicing, but I don't think that's going to really help.
But I don't know.
There should be a change to it.
I agree.
Yeah, well, I just watched my son because he's almost 17 now.
So at 15, he had his permit.
And then, you know, I'm sure you could imagine when you've done what we do, you're super
diligent and train this child in every way you can.
And every and I'm a shit magnet on the road.
So he gets many opportunities to see what bad drivers look like because I seem to attract
him like, you know, flies on.
But yeah, but it's like, OK, let me get you comfortable maneuvering the vehicle, which
is all the DMV is going to test you.
But then let's now talk about, you know, everyone else on the road and what we can do.
I mean, even if she won the first time that he drove after he got his test, like when
I was rape rape vans, you know, the white one right in front of him at 50 mile an hour
roads, the guy must have been drunk.
And then we're just like, you know, this is this is it.
It's everyone else that you got to train for.
But if you've got a bad driver training a child, then you've just got another bad driver.
You know, so, you know, there's this whole conversation about kids today is that, yeah,
well, kids today were raised by adults today.
So we're responsible for kids today.
You know what I mean?
So you can't just sit back and bitch about kids today.
If you've got a child and you raised them, are they good or are they bad?
And it's the same with the driving.
You can make sure that, you know, your child comes home at night, you know, and if they're
friends in the car, they all get to their home safely, too.
But if you're not Uber hands on, especially in this low bar country, when it comes to
driving, you may well have you or me showing up telling the parents that your kid was just
killed.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's sad.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, then moving forward in your career, let's get to September 12th, 2014.
Talk to me about, you know, the the kind of shift prior to that.
And then let's walk through to that evening.
All right.
So on September 12, 2014, I was working well, we'll go back to September 11th.
I was working a midnight shift.
And then that next morning, I was asked to work a overtime shift in a construction zone
for a couple of hours.
And once I finished up that shift, September 12th, the morning of September 12th, I called
the supervisor and I requested that I go home in uniform and take a patrol vehicle home
with me just because I only had a couple hours to sleep and then come into my next midnight
shift.
And a bunch of us would carpool from the same area.
We lived about 30 minutes.
There was four of us that worked the midnight shift and we all lived about 30 minutes right
from the station.
So we would all carpool.
So that night I picked those guys up, three other guys, three other troopers and drove
up to the barracks.
And once I pulled in, those three guys got out, went in the back door and were getting
changed.
And I was actually prepping to run a local marathon that October.
So the next morning I was planning on going for a 10 mile run with a friend of mine.
So what I basically did, I packed the gym bag, threw it in the patrol vehicle and then
I was out in that parking lot.
I was transferring that bag into my personal vehicle.
And at that point in time, that's when I heard what sounded like fireworks going off.
The first thing that I thought of was there's an individual down the street who sells fireworks.
It's right after our Labor Day holiday, September.
He's lighting off whatever he had left over.
And that's all that's going on.
But as I heard two simultaneous, what sounded like fireworks going off, I looked up into
the front of our station, which was up on a hill from where the parking lot was.
And I noticed an individual laying out there in front of the station.
The second thing that came to my mind was the last, now this is during shift change.
So the prior shift is some of those guys are leaving.
Some of them are still in the station and our shift just came in to take over.
And I'm thinking somebody from that prior shift just picked up a DUI suspect and they
fingerprinted them and they put them in the lobby and nobody's watching them now.
And now the guy wandered out drunk waiting for a ride, somebody to pick him up.
And now he fell and probably cracked his head open.
And now we got to go deal with this.
So I start walking closer and closer to this individual and I noticed it's one of our troopers
in uniform.
It was actually Corporal Brian Dixon.
And as I got closer, I noticed that he had a gunshot, like a wound bleeding from like
right about here, right above his vest.
And he was kind of turned on his side.
And I noticed there was some blood coming from his other side of the shoulder.
And he was just laying there with his firearm out.
And I believe at that point he was deceased, but I didn't know where the shots were coming
from.
So we had like another whole side of the building on the opposite side that I thought somebody
was over there maybe firing.
Somebody could have been in the lobby firing.
I didn't know what was going on.
Or we're across the street from this huge wooded state forest area that's acres and
acres of woods just with a back road going in front of our station.
And I'm thinking maybe that's where the gunshots are coming from.
So the weird thing is as I'm approaching him and getting closer, the thing based on our
training is never leave a man behind.
So I wasn't sure if he was totally deceased or not.
So my first initial thought was I got to get him inside to our station.
Well in front of our station, our entire station is cinder block, except there's two front
doors that are glass, two glass doors.
And then we have a lobby area and then we have another door that's solid wood that goes
into the actual station from the lobby.
So I'm thinking I got to get him inside to this lobby.
And it's this weird thought that went through my head like I'm going to get shot.
Even before I got shot, I just this thought that went through my head like I'm going to
get shot.
I'm either going to die or I'm going to survive.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to get shot.
And I bent down and grabbed his leg to pull him in.
And worst pain of my life felt like I got hit by a baseball bat going across my back
and I just dropped right to the ground and I couldn't feel anything below my waist at
that point.
So I had to let go of him and unfortunately try to save myself.
So I went head first through the glass doors into the lobby.
And again, we weren't trained for something like this type of incident in the academy.
So just I don't know if it was growing up around what my father was telling me about
my grandfather and different stories.
And my father would make my brother and I sit there and watch war movies.
And I don't know.
I don't know what instinct brought to me.
But I knew if I crawled straight across from where those doors were into the lobby, that
individual could take another shot at me and I would have been dead.
So I first thought if I got to crawl across the perimeter of the inside of this cinder
block lobby to that door, you know, out of line of sight.
And that's what I ended up doing.
And two other troopers actually came out through that wooden door and I yelled to them, this
is what's going on.
Somebody's shooting at us.
I don't know how many people there are.
I don't even know what's going on, but we're getting shot at.
I'm shot.
Dixon's shot outside.
And you know, they pulled me in and some of the guys started doing CPR and I started receiving
medical attention from those guys.
And then a couple other guys went out in an SUV and tried to barricade and tried to block
two other guys who were coming through the lobby to grab Dixon and pull him inside.
And that's what they ended up doing was pulling him inside.
He was only laying like two or three feet away from me as I'm, you know, I'm laying
there bleeding out.
So it was kind of a shitty situation, to say the least.
That's horrendous.
Now as you fast forward, what did you start learning?
Because we'll get to your physical and mental kind of journey from there.
But what was the backstory about the individual that was firing those shots?
So the backstory was we never had personally any encounter with him and nobody at our station
did had any encounter with him in the past.
He was, you know, taught by his father that government is bad and police are bad and military
is bad.
And he wanted to start a government revolution and he was going after specifically, you know,
troopers in uniform or police officers in uniform.
We had a detective who was dressed in a button on shirt tie and khakis walk out maybe 10,
15 minutes before Brian Dixon walked out and no shots were fired.
And that individual is definitely sitting there because they had his cell phone ping
for like an hour or so before that.
So he was definitely going after guys in uniform and he wanted to start a government revolution
was quote unquote what he told investigators.
That must have messed with a detective's head knowing that they he literally would have
died had been wearing a different uniform.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Crazy, you know.
So let's get to the manhunt.
Then we'll get back to, you know, your journey from the lobby forward.
But he had a survival background.
He obviously had an element of brainwashing from his father, you know, ultimately a mentally
ill extremist like we see so often, no matter what religion or, you know, doctrine that
they belong to.
The manhunt started obviously quite small.
Talk to me about that camaraderie, that brother and sisterhood and the swelling of law enforcement
present that resulted in catching him.
So yeah, it first started, you know, obviously with our state troopers from different stations
and everything like that close by that came rushing to the scene.
Then we had a lot of help from New Jersey state troopers, New York state troopers that
came.
They brought their special emergency teams in.
And then from there, like the FBI helped us out.
We had a lot of help that actually did a lot of the interrogation interview and interrogation
where the ATF tobacco and firearms guys and US marshals came in to help out and they
brought helicopters in.
But it was just crazy.
I mean, I was in the hospital at that time, so I didn't really know too much what was
going on.
But you would have guys coming in being like these guys came in, these guys are helping
out.
Now these guys are coming in.
And it was just a crazy feeling that while like everyone's on our side, you know, to
come in to help us out and try to search for this individual.
Yeah.
Well, when I heard you talking about it on the other podcast, it just, you know, there's
some voices that like, oh, brotherhood, sisterhood is dead in the fire service and law enforcement.
You know, the thin blue line is bullshit.
But I disagree that group exists.
They may not be everyone, but when the shit hits the fan, same as 9-11, same as the London
bombings, you know, people come together and they show their true colors.
And it sounded like, you know, there was a resounding feeling within the law enforcement
community that they were going to find that fucker.
And you know, the more the better.
Yeah, yeah.
No, like you've seen it firsthand and especially in the UK.
But that night and that whole couple of months, you know, the month that he was on the run
for, I've seen it firsthand.
You know, I'm a witness to that.
There's definitely a blue line, you know, and I don't think it's thin.
I think it's pretty thick, to be honest with you.
I mean, that's how I experienced it.
So now, again, before we progress to your journey, hopefully, you know, when things
like this happens, especially God forbid we lose someone, there's some sort of takeaway,
some sort of lesson that we can learn to make sure it never happens again or reduce the
chances of it happening again.
Were there any takeaways from because I heard, you know, that there were school counselors
worried about this individual when he was younger.
Were there any things that, you know, people listening now, red flags or anything like
that, that people that you teach or people can learn from that maybe would have assisted
in prevention or catching of this person?
Well, he specifically, like you said, I mean, there were, I guess, tons of different points
brought up about him throughout his life that people, I guess, more specifically his parents
ignored.
And that was the problem there.
And I think they kind of, from my understanding, enforced or, you know, promoted what he was
doing.
You know, the father would let him use his own rifles, knowing that he, you know, the
school counselors or somebody else were telling him that he wasn't mentally well, you know,
and he just didn't care, you know.
So I think it has a lot with how you're raised, how you're being brought up, you know.
Unfortunately, I don't think people are really going to change too much in that mind factor.
We just, what was it not too long ago, where there was a school shooting and I believe
it was a 12 people passed away and they convicted the parents.
They held the parents accountable.
Remember that?
You know, maybe if they do more of that, maybe people kind of realize and kick themselves
in the ass, you know what I mean?
And get straightened out.
But I don't know.
Relating to my incident, nothing, I mean, besides our training and what to look out
for and if something, God forbid, happened like that again, they train that now at our
academy.
But other than that, the actual individuals changing them, I don't know if that's going
to change, unfortunately.
So you mentioned about lying in the lobby, you're staring, you know, at one of your brothers
who's deceased on the floor, a couple of feet from you.
Firstly, as far as the wounds, you know, what was the severity of the wound?
I mean, you were hit, but you can't feel your legs now.
So as they kind of took you through the medical journey, what did you discover had actually
happened from that shot?
So I was shot, it went right through the left side of my back, right through my intestines
and down at an angle and went out through my right hip.
And actually, it severed my sciatic nerve on my right side and blew out my total right
hip and femur shattered my femur in my right leg.
But like I said, it was the initial shock and everything that I just felt like I was
paralyzed.
That was the initial thought going through my head.
And you know, a lot of crazy stuff, I mean, Earl said it when he got blown up, you know,
a lot of crazy things when you're in a traumatic incident like that go through your head.
And one of the things was number one, I'm going to be out of work for a long time, which
was kind of funny.
You think about it because that's all I was thinking.
I don't have to go to work.
But the severity of it was I don't have to, you know, I'm going to be I'm not going to
be able to run again because I'm paralyzed.
You know, so that was kind of scary on my part.
And being the fact that I couldn't run again or you're thinking about being paralyzed,
I mean, it's a whole different life changer.
So as I was dragging myself in that those are the two main thoughts that were going
through my head.
You know, but yeah, I was shot when it went through my leg.
And then finally, when they were able to evacuate me medically to the hospital, when I was in
the ambulance, what they ended up doing was picking me up in the ambulance at our station
once it was secured and driving me to a local school where they life flighted me from there
to the local hospital.
And as I was in the ambulance, I started my left whole left side started coming back.
So then I knew I wasn't paralyzed at that point, but nothing was coming back on my right
side.
So I didn't really know what was going on.
I didn't really know the severity of my wounds.
You see on TV when you get shot in the legs or anything like that, you're like, oh, that
person lives, you know, that's I'll be fine.
You know, and that's kind of what was going through my head.
But I didn't know that it went through my whole pelvic region, which carries the one
of the most heavily carried blood supply regions of the body.
You know, so I was I was losing a lot of blood at the time.
So I didn't I didn't realize that until after the fact.
I've had numerous peace officers now that that was shot or, you know, it was a car accident,
something like that.
And if you're not killed, then the way they were the injuries that knife non life threatening
injuries, you know, but you lost your leg, you know, whatever it was.
Kevin Holtry was in a wheelchair now and it really downplays the severity.
You know, it might have been not life threatening for some of these people, but it was absolutely
life changing for them.
So as you start going through these surgeries, what became your new reality?
You know, you had this immense physicality.
You were a professional in uniform.
You were part of a team.
You had a purpose.
You know, where did you find yourself physically and mentally as the months progressed after
that?
So like I said, you spoke to Earl and I kind of had the same mindset as Earl when I was
in the hospitals.
You know, I felt like I was part of that team, you know, team of the troopers and we're doing
our own thing.
We're doing our job, you know.
And you know, how could somebody do this to us?
We weren't harming them in any which way.
But as I was in the hospital longer and longer, I became more depressed thinking like, oh,
I don't have a purpose anymore.
I can't feel my right leg.
So I'm not going to be running anymore.
My running career is done.
And that's one of the things really that kind of was a stress reliever for me.
So I'm thinking, how am I going to be relieving my stress and all this now that I can't run
and part of this team?
I don't know if I'm ever going to be back to work.
So I don't know if part of being part of a team is over, you know, at this point.
And, you know, it kind of really put me down, you know, deep into the dump, you know.
So what about the physical journey?
I know initially you ended up, you know, they saved your leg, but walk me through that because
I've had a few people now.
Seb Lavoie was a Canadian police officer, like a special operations guy, went through
his whole career with no real issues.
He was a jujitsu guy.
He's a CrossFit guy.
And then his story, he just got calf implants, just purely aesthetic.
He retired.
He's like, I've always had these one sided calves.
I'm just going to get it done.
And it was just one in a million where it didn't take.
And he ended up having compartment syndrome.
And ultimately he chose to cut his leg off because the nerves were all damaged.
And it was amazing for him.
And I've had another stunt woman, Olivia Jackson, who had this horrific accident on set and
her nerves are all severed and she chose to cut her arm off because it was like a weight
just hanging there.
So walk me through the initial kind of hope of, you know, getting your leg back to full
health and then let's go to the decision to amputate.
Yeah.
So like I said, I couldn't feel that right leg for the longest time.
My doctors, I went to a lot of different, one of the best orthopedic hospitals in the
country in New York City.
And one of my surgeons, he was a physiatrist who studied, you know, nerve takes and nerve
growth and all that.
And he said, your nerves are pretty much shot on that side.
They're not coming back on that right side.
And he actually recommended an amputation possibly in the future.
And he said the same thing as you just said, you just told me that he had a patient who
is a female who, I guess, fell off the back of a boat and cut her leg up pretty good on
part of the motor, the blades on the motor and, you know, cut some nerves and everything
like that.
And she ended up having her leg amputated and she was she's doing stuff like now, I
guess, and she had her leg amputated that she wasn't even able to do before, like better
stuff, you know.
And so my doctor, you know, talked, spoke to this individual, this is a physiatrist and
another surgeon and all three of them came together.
This was December of 2018.
So it was about four years after my initial injury and said, you know, you're just you're
not you're not moving forward.
You're going to be getting blood clots.
You're going to be doing this.
So sooner or later, you're going to have to have your leg amputated.
It's your choice when you want to do it.
So I, you know, I sat down with my wife and we talked about it.
And one of one of the people who really made made me make the decision I did at the time
was Earl, who said, you know, I still remember him saying whatever improves the quality of
your lifestyle, do go with it, you know.
And that's what these doctors are saying.
They said, you're not going to be any worse than you are now.
If anything, you're going to improve.
But we're not guaranteeing you that you're going to improve.
But, you know, that's up to you.
And so I decided to go with him, have it amputated below my knee.
And you know, I'll tell you, James, it was, you know, I was wearing these leg braces before
the leg amputated and just sticking them in different shoes.
You had to wear different types of sneakers.
And I was just dragging my leg around and day after day.
And it was so depressing to me, you know.
And once I had the leg amputated, it was like such a relief mentally.
It was like a thousand pounds off my shoulders.
And I would actually wake up mornings after that, months, even a year after and be like,
did I really have my leg amputated because it feels good?
Like there's no pain, there's nothing.
And it was just such a good feeling.
And to this day, I have no regrets making that choice.
Even my physical therapists here that dealt with me before the amputation and still deal
with me now, they're like so impressed by what I'm able to do now compared to what I
was able to do before.
So it's definitely a great choice on my part to do it.
I would definitely do it again.
Did you have to get below the knee or above the knee?
So I'm below the knee on my right leg.
So the world of prosthetics, you talked about, you know, better after the amputation, what
were you able to do with the prosthesis that you weren't able to do with the drop foot
anatomical leg that you were born with?
So due to the injury, like I said, I was running and everything before all this injury and
before I was shot.
So after that, after I was injured, I wasn't able to run at all.
I was basically I had a brace on my leg that was holding my foot up because my foot would
just flop back and forth because of the nerve damage.
I had what they call drop foot.
And so now I'm actually jogging and running and I was never able to do that before.
And that was one of the main things that the doctors thought I would be able to do if I
had it amputated.
Besides that, I'm doing CrossFit and everything like that.
Back to working out.
I haven't ran a marathon yet, but I did a 5K and stuff like that.
So we're slowly working on it, but we're getting back to where hopefully where I was before
him.
You know, it's definitely going in a positive, positive way than where I was before him.
And what about the mental journey?
You said you found yourself in a dark place.
Where was the lowest place that you found?
And then what were some of the tools you used to start climbing out of that hole?
So I was in a low place for quite some time early on, first couple of months.
And then I started going to a rehab facility here in our area after I left New York City.
And that's when I met actually Earl Granville and the CEO and vice president of this allied
services, which is the rehab place said, you know, do you want to run this 2015 marathon?
And of course, you know, being the person I am, I'm like, yeah, of course I do.
I'll run it.
No problem.
Because I guess they have a team that runs it every year and raises money for their organization.
And I said, yeah, sure.
No problem.
Well, as it's getting closer, I'm still dragging my leg around.
At this point, I didn't have my leg amputated, so I'm still wearing leg braces.
I still have drop foot and I'm dragging my leg around.
And you know, I said to this friend who's now a friend of mine who, like I said, he's
the vice president up there.
And I said, you know, Jim, I can't run this.
And he said, I have an idea.
He said, we know this veteran who does these races in a wheelchair, a hand cycle.
It's like a wheelchair cycle.
And here's his number.
Why don't you give him a call up?
And his names are Earl Granville.
And I said, oh, I know the name.
I know the guy I've seen him doing CrossFit before.
This is like way before my injury.
And I always told myself this is a weird story that, you know, he lost his leg, I believe
it was 08 and maybe 2011, 12.
I went to a CrossFit gym and I saw him just like swinging all over the place doing this
crazy stuff.
And I'm like, Jesus, if I ever lost my leg, I want to be like this guy.
This guy is motivating, you know, and here I am.
But I lost my leg.
And going back, kind of like what I said in the beginning, how, you know, my father said,
oh, don't go into the military because it's dangerous and people are dying and they're
losing limbs and everything like that.
And, you know, when I was in the hospital, I had to remind them I lost my limb and look
where I'm at now.
I was going to ask you that earlier.
Like, well, that what do you think now?
Yeah.
What do you think now?
You know, should have been a teacher.
Yeah.
I actually had these professors in college that they thought I was crazy for going to
the state police.
They said, no, go into economics and, you know, pursue a PhD and do this.
And I said, I said, no, this is what I want to do.
And they said, it's dangerous.
And I said, well, you taught a lot of people who died in 9-11 in the World Trade Center.
That's where they worked.
And they said, good point.
Well, they ended up coming to the hospital after I was shot and said, we told you so.
So they kind of shut that back into my face.
Here's a chart to show why you're an idiot.
We made it.
Yeah, exactly.
We told you not to do that.
Not to sidetrack.
But yeah, when I was at this rehab, so they told me about Earl and I knew Earl and I called
them up and I said, could I borrow one of your hand cyclists to do this New York City
marathon?
And he said, you know, I have a better idea.
I have two hand cycles.
Why don't I do it with you?
We could do it together.
And that's what we ended up doing.
We finished it together.
And that's when I first really started mentally coming out of that funk, that really down
word because I didn't think I was doing anything with my life.
I didn't.
I just felt really down about it.
And when I did the marathon with him, I, you know, I felt like a part of a team and a purpose
and everything like that.
And it really, it really helped me and move me forward mentally and physically, too.
So where did it go from there?
You do the marathon with Earl.
Like what else is helping you on that upswing mentally?
So yeah, so when I was doing that marathon with Earl, I felt like I was, you know, part
of a team again.
I had more of a purpose in life.
I finished a marathon.
That was my goal because that's what I was training to do before I was shot.
And then as I got to become even better friends with Earl, he got me involved in a group called
Operation Doreen Warriors, who again, I'm sure he told you about them.
They're a nonprofit group for wounded veterans and wounded first responders.
And, you know, he got me involved in that group.
And I met more and more people who have, you know, either, you know, different appendages
that are missing or, you know, just basically mental trauma that they're suffering from,
from either the war or being shot as a police officer.
And, you know, I became very close and tight with those people and I still remain tight
with those people.
So if it wasn't for Earl, I wouldn't have gotten involved in these groups.
And they've done wonders for me.
And like next week, I'm going out to visit a friend of mine who's in Oklahoma.
He lives in Stillwater, Oklahoma.
And Earl does a ruck there every year in March.
And that's how I got to know this guy.
And he's not a veteran that lives out there.
He's just, he was a guy that said, hey, I knew the guy that Earl does the ruck for that
passed away, like come stay at my house for the weekend and you guys do this ruck.
And I got to know him and connected to him.
And now he and I are like best friends.
So I'm just going out there to hang out with them for a week.
Like, it's just crazy how the connections, you know, it's such a negative event that
happened, but a lot of positive, a lot of good came out of it.
So I first was introduced to Operation During Warrior through one of my firefighter friends,
Mandy, and I ended up interviewing Drew Stokes, who was one of their first honorees from the
law enforcement side, Task Force Sentinel.
And I, he again, just like you was, was ambushed by some rich white kid in a Publix parking
lot of all places.
Whilst Drew was on his way to get a family that we just evacuated, they just evacuated
from, I think it was Puerto Rico, from one of the storms.
And he was just going to buy this family food and diapers and clothes.
So he was doing something good when he was shot.
But I watched this man, because obviously I interviewed him prior to when he went through
the Spartan race that we did, and I watched the metamorphosis from the start line to the
finish line.
And he realized that he could do so much more.
And obviously, you know, the mass athletes and some of us were helping him through, you
know, some of these, these obstacles, of course, but his sense of self-esteem, his sense of
ability, you know, I mean, I watched it within a few short hours.
What did you experience with that group?
And what did you see with some of the other honorees that you ended up working with?
Yeah, kind of like I already I met, um, um, who Stokes and, uh, you know, I know Mandy
and everything like that.
And I met all great people, you know what I mean?
And, um, we had a lot of the same injuries that I had a lot of the same injuries that
he drew had, you know what I mean?
That, that, uh, so we were able to kind of relate.
It's kind of like the camaraderie.
So you just asked, like, how did, uh, you know, how do we kind of come together and
how does each other help each other out?
Um, you know, it's not just the races and the competitions.
Like you said, you're helping each other lift over, you know, going over walls and stuff
like that.
If they have, you know, disabilities that they can't, can't make it or do that.
And you're helping them hand in hand with that.
But it's even more so like I found out, like, it's just a communication with these other
guys and girls that have been through, you know, this type of traumatic incident, uh,
that you can just relate to.
Um, for me specifically, like I, you know, I talked to Earl, but besides Earl, there's
a lot of other guys that are, you know, missing their legs from, from Afghanistan, Iraq that
are part of this group.
And I'll be like, Hey, how do you like that prosthetic or how do you like that prosthetic?
And they'll be like, Oh, I swear by this one, why don't you try this one?
And I'll tell my prosthetic guy, you know, why don't we try this leg?
And you know, I found a leg that actually one of the guys wears all the time that, that
works for me, that really works for me well.
So it's just, you know, it's the whole combination of everything.
It's not just doing the endurance competitions and the races it is.
And it's showing that, you know, you have that brother and sisterhood and that you're
helping each other out, but it's really the camaraderie and, um, you know, that communication
for that similarities of whatever happened and whatever traumatic incident you might
have encountered and coming together and, you know, that friendship and that bond, you
know.
So when, when you were shot, you had a lot of things stolen from you, obviously part
of your physicality, but then that tribe, that purpose that we talked about, you know,
you found it somewhat in OEW and some of these organizations, where are you today as far
as purpose?
What's the next chapter for you?
So Earl and I do a lot of public speaking together, um, trying to make that awareness
that, you know, I'm sure Earl told you, and I'm not going to go into it too much, but
you know, when you have that, that weight on your shoulder, that really bad day in life,
you know, and it gets really heavy, you know, pass it on and share it with somebody, go
to a counselor.
And it took me a while to go to counseling just because I figured nobody would understand
what I went through this, you know, 120 pound female sitting in front of me who's been a
counselor her whole life will not understand what I've been through, you know, and I was
totally wrong.
It was just somebody to talk to.
And that's what I kind of, you know, promote to people and give them that awareness that
it doesn't matter who you're talking to, as long as you share that with somebody.
But we see it all too much between law enforcement, fire, EMS, of course, the military, everyone,
you know, there's a lot of suicides and it's unfortunate and it's all over the place.
And there's, there's no need for it.
You know, there's always that help out there.
And that's what people need to do is just, you know, suck it up, grab their balls and
go out and talk to somebody about it.
You know, I think one of the things I've talked about is a lot recently, you know, I've, I've
watched this mental health conversation unfold through my lens.
Now, there's people that have been talking about this for decades that are the real pioneers
in this space.
But for a lot of us, I feel it was about eight, nine years ago where our profession started
really talking about it.
And the initial conversation was always a stigma.
We've got to smash the stigma.
You know, it's, you know, it's okay not to be okay and all these kinds of phrases.
But I feel like that's kind of ground to a halt because that doesn't take the individual
from crisis to healing.
It's just, it's okay to be in pain.
All right.
I'm still in pain.
You said it was okay.
I'm still in pain.
But what I think was missing is that hope element of post-traumatic growth.
Doesn't mean that you're not going to, you know, you're just going to forget lying there
in the foyer next to your fallen brother or, you know, the, the terror of being shot, but
that resilience that is forged from, as you said, you know, whether it's, you know, running
a Spartan with Earl, whether it's sitting in an office with a counselor who understands
you and really progressing forward.
I can't help but feel like true resilience sits on the other side, which is actually
exciting, which is a better version of you, you know, is waiting when you do the work.
What is your perception of the kind of that philosophy?
So yeah.
And going back and I kind of left it out too.
You know, you, I think you asked like, how did, you know, Operation During Warriors and
other groups help me?
And again, I think, yeah, you could go to counseling, like you said, and you could have
these people say, you know, you know, you need to get better and this and that.
But I think what helps more is communicating and talking and becoming friends with, you
know, like people like yourself who have seen traumatic incidents or have been through traumatic
incidents and these guys in Operation During Warriors who have been through it.
And it's not like you're sitting there in a counseling session, but it's just that you're
talking as a friend and I think that even helps out more than, you know, just going
to a counselor.
I'm just saying, but like that's how these groups have helped me out personally.
And that's how I continue to push forward and look at the positive.
My whole thing was, you know, I'm not going to let some ship bird ruin my life and I'm
going to wake up every day being like life sucks.
You know, my whole philosophy is, you know, life is good.
I'm alive.
I'm going to make the best of it.
You know, I have good people in my life, all the negative people are gone, good people
in my life, and I'm going to keep moving forward and winning at life.
That's my whole philosophy.
When you run a Spartan with our own, we did the very first Spartan opened up during COVID,
you know, it was in Florida.
I ran that ran slash walk that with him.
I climbed one World Trade with Rob Jones, who ended up taking his prosthetics off.
He's like, this is this is not going to work.
And he just put little pads on his knees and bear crawled 110 stories.
I'm there with my legs are getting tired.
I'm not saying a fucking word.
I'm fine, Rob.
I'm absolutely fine.
I'm not complaining.
But you know, that in itself is growth like these people that, you know, a lot of us would
think you curl up and die.
You know, they found this amazing new version of themselves on the other side.
It's very, very inspiring.
So you've got these people that are, you know, physically and or mentally traumatized.
But then they, you know, surrounding yourself with those people, I think it reminds you
of that hope.
It reminds you is not comparing trauma because it's very dangerous.
But if person, you know, a went through all this and now is thriving on the other end,
of course, they're still cognizant that they're missing a leg or two or whatever it is.
But Mark Omrott is a perfect example from the UK.
You know, it's such a great environment to be because if you're surrounded by people
that just fucking made it happen, like you said about grabbing your balls, that's really
it.
It's having the courage to say I can do that, too.
And those people will help you.
They'll tell you how they got there.
And I'll tell you about their peaks and their valleys.
But if you surround yourself in an environment where it's like, well, we'll get you a dog,
you know, and then you can tell a sad story about you.
You know, you live with PTSD every day.
I think that's a really shitty message.
I think you need to surround yourselves by the Earls and the Marks and all these incredible
people that are going to push you so much further than you thought was possible.
And you're going to look back and go, wow, I don't know, just dealing.
I'm not just living with my PTSD, my depression or whatever.
I'm so much better than I was before.
Yeah, no, I agree.
Absolutely.
And that's you know, you could take a couple of different tracks and different paths.
And like you said, you could you could, you know, drink your life or get on prescription
meds and go that path or, you know, wake up every day and just mope around and be like
and relive it over and over.
And you, you know, go out to a restaurant and if somebody asks you what happened to
your leg and, you know, you start telling them, you know, the savvy story and make them
feel bad for you.
It's like you could be that person or I was a veteran or talks about all the time you
hear these guys or I was a veteran.
I was OK.
The war is over.
You know what I mean?
Not that nothing against you being a veteran.
And I people say, oh, I used to be a retired cop and I hate when people say that.
It's like, all right, buddy, like that's nice.
Congratulations.
But, you know, I don't bring that up.
You know what I mean?
When if people ask me out in the store, they'll be like, how did you lose your leg?
Were you a veteran?
I'll be like, no, I was a police officer.
I got shot and I just walk away.
And I don't tell my story.
And it's not because I don't want to.
It's just, you know, I don't want I don't want people to be like, oh, I feel so bad
for you and this and that.
And one of the most discouraging things somebody asked me the other night, I did a speech for
our rehab center and one of the doctors came up, he was a young guy, and he said, what's
one of the most discouraging things as an amputee or, you know, being somewhat I don't
even like to say disabled, but being, you know, you know, injured or whatever.
You know, one of the things is when people are like, oh, let me bend over and get that
for you or let me lift that for you.
It's like, let them deal with what they want to do.
If they need help, they'll ask for help.
You know, that's how I feel like that's where I get offended is when people are like, oh,
let me help you with this.
Don't move.
Sit here.
Are you sore?
Sit down.
No, I'll do what I want to do.
You know what I mean?
Kind of thing.
But but yeah, you could take these paths and or you could take the path, like you said,
Earl and a lot of your Ukraine friend around Ukraine.
You're going to break the bread.
But no, a lot of like guys that, you know, you know what I mean?
Like and push yourself.
And there's a lot of other guys in the US that I follow that, you know, they got wounded.
But yeah, like there's one guy who went back into the special forces and he's like a dive
instructor now and he has one leg.
He's above the knee amputee and he's doing crazy stuff.
And it's like, OK, what's your excuse?
You know what I mean?
And and that's that's my whole point.
You know, there's no excuses.
Keep moving forward.
And like I said before, I'm not going to let some ship bird, you know, take away my life
and take away my happiness and stuff like that.
You know?
Well, speaking of the aforementioned ship bird, we didn't talk about how he was caught
and what he's sitting waiting for now.
So let's round off that story.
You have all I think it was a thousand strong law enforcement team looking for him.
Talk to me about how they caught him and then what was the verdict of the trial?
So it took 48 days.
Our state police lieutenant colonel George Bivens led the whole thing and they would
set up different grid patterns and set different units and different grid patterns and and
start searching for him that way.
And it took 48 days and just happened to be the grid pattern that he was in.
It was abandoned plane airplane hangar was the U.S. Marshall Group, Special Forces Group.
And they were just in that area.
And he came walking out of the woods and they ended up, you know, handcuffing them.
They use Brian Dixon's handcuffs to transport them.
And he was transported up to our station where they interviewed and interrogated them and
going back to where I said, if I crawled straight through those doors, he actually admitted
that that's what he was waiting for me to do, to take another shot at me and kill me.
So like I said, I don't know what made me go the other way, but I did.
And I'm here.
But we had a trial in 2017 and the jury found him accountable on all counts.
And he was sentenced to the death penalty where he's sitting on death row now in Pennsylvania.
And will probably never happen until we get a governor that acknowledges the death penalty.
When I looked him up on Wikipedia, there was pictures and he's a little scuffed up.
His face is obviously, you know, been rearranged a little bit.
And there was these comments that I'm assuming some people went, well, what happened to him?
And I just kind of laughed to myself.
This guy killed one police officer, almost killed another one.
You don't think that the people that catch him are not going to be super softly, gently
when they restrain him and cuff him.
And I've been on on scenes as a firefighter where someone's been mouthing off, maybe spat
at one of us, I forget now.
And he's walked around into an alley and he comes out with more things that we've got
to address.
That's what fucking happens, you know, play stupid games.
So I just thought that was such a crazy, it was only about three lines, but it was like
almost justifying someone said, well, we had to face him down.
They're not allowed to they're not allowed to look at us when we're arresting them.
Like, no, you fucking throw him down to the ground because he murdered two of your brothers.
That's what happened.
No explanation needed.
Yeah.
I mean, he's lucky to be alive, you know, and viewpoint, you know, I don't know what
they're crying about.
But yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The same thing happened with I think it was it was one of our local police officers and
I think the perpetrator was almost blind in one eye or lost his eye.
And it's like, well, that's the other person's dead.
He doesn't even get to go home to his family because of you.
If you hadn't done that in the first place, your eye would still be fine.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Anyway.
All right.
Well, I want to transition to some closing questions before I let you go.
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend
it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?
So a friend of mine wrote a book.
He was an injured Pennsylvania state trooper.
He got run over on the side of the road while working.
And this is one of them.
It's called The Forged in Scars and Stripes.
And he wrote this one.
His name is Bob Bemis.
And it tells his story of how he was hit and, you know, he got pretty fucked up physically
and his mental, you know, his mental process through the whole recovery and everything
like that.
Kind of like similar to mine.
But it's a great book, great story.
He's a great guy and he's retired now from our job.
But it just, like I said, tells his pathway through, you know, being physically injured.
Another one is this.
It's called In His Grip by Bob Gerken.
And he's a retired trooper, too.
And I just spoke to him the other day, actually.
He's currently writing another book on the most prominent Pennsylvania state police incidents
in history.
So he's kind of like a PSP historian, but he is a retired trooper.
And if you ever met the guy, he reminds you of Clint Eastwood.
He's like that kind of guy.
He sits on his front porch and, you know, choose cope and hang in.
And that's him, you know.
But he's currently writing another book now.
But he's very religious, which I respect.
And, you know, he prays every day that he made it out of being a trooper and being alive
and moving forward in a retirement and everything like that.
So that's another really good book.
Brilliant.
Thank you.
What about films and documentaries?
I mean, I like a lot of, like I said, World War Two movies, stuff like that.
I just saw not too long ago the movie 1917, which I think you would appreciate.
Yeah, that's not Dunkirk, was it?
It was the one shot scene, wasn't it?
The whole film is one sequence, supposed to be one sequence.
Yes.
Correct.
Great film.
Yeah.
All Quiet on the Eastern Front.
I don't know if you saw that one.
I know of it.
I haven't actually seen it.
That one you would like.
That actually has to do with the United Kingdom, I think.
I think it was two soldiers, two young soldiers from the United Kingdom that were, you know,
down in trenches and everything like that fighting.
It was a really good movie.
But you know, another one is Lone Survivor.
And one of them, like I like Lone Survivor just because it kind of shows that, you know,
that positive push forward even after the shit hits the fan kind of.
You never give up point of view, you know.
I just interviewed the guy behind the movie Ranger and the subject of the film is David
Waterhouse.
And he and his fellow Rangers were sent to retrieve the bodies from Operation Red Wings.
Oh, yes.
Yes, I heard of that.
I bet that was a good interview.
Yeah, that was a great interview.
It's a very tragic story, though.
But Lone Survivor, I've said this a few times on here, where I think the film really dropped
the ball is that the heroism of those villagers that protected him, I think was underplayed
in the movie.
But he wrote it so much better in the book.
Yeah, I have his book.
I just haven't read it yet, but I want to I want to read it.
I heard that it explains more about the villagers and specifically that one villager that really
helped him through things.
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Well, then the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professionals of the
world?
I'm not sure.
Did you ever interview Jeremy Sharla?
I did actually not too long ago, probably four months ago now.
OK, how about they Josh Rainey?
Not Josh Rainey.
And I heard you mention him on the other podcast.
So yeah, he's a good one.
He's a veteran and he every day is hard for him.
You know, this stuff that he saw, but he would be a good, good one.
I could give you his contact info and I get off where I could text you and everything.
Yeah, that'd be great.
Thank you.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, then the last question before we make sure people know where to find you, what do
you do to decompress?
So usually, like I said, I used to run before all this happened.
Mostly right now it's exercise.
That's what I do to decompress.
Kind of I'll do a lot of reading.
But mostly working out for me is my exit from stress.
You know, that's what I like to do and it works for me.
What kind of exercise you do as I saw that you've done CrossFit in the past.
Is that something you still do?
I still do CrossFit.
Yeah.
Now I started jogging, like I said, so I jog around our neighborhood.
I also do I'll take my leg off on crutches or the development, the area that we live
in is about a mile and a half.
So I'll go on crutches for a mile and a half without my leg.
I'm just crouching around and all the neighbors think I'm a whack job, but it's actually a
really good workout.
So I've never heard anyone say just crutching around, but I feel like that should be a phrase.
That's what I tell my wife.
She's like, what?
She knows what it is, but other people don't.
All right.
Well, for people listening, I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to learn more
about you or reach out or find out how to contact you as far as speaking.
Where are the best places online and social media?
So my email is Douglas, D-O-U-G-L-A-S-S, the letter A and the letter T is in Tom at Yahoo.com
is my email.
And I only use Instagram for social media and my handle is Alex T as in Tom Douglas,
two S's at Instagram.
And that's basically it.
That's all I got for you.
Beautiful.
Well, Alex, I want to say again, thank you to all for making this connection.
But I want to thank you again for telling your story.
I think the more of these stories of healing that we hear, especially in your case where
it was just, I mean, completely blindsided, ambushed.
I mean, there was no buildup to it at all.
That in itself, the literally thinking about training for a marathon and all of a sudden
you're lying there next to your friend.
That transition from the physical or mental journey to where you are now, I think is incredibly
important for people listening.
Everyone's going through their own version of hurting and the more men and women we have,
you know, detailing their journeys of healing and growth, I think is imperative.
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Thanks again, brother.