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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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Now to learn more about Thorn, go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast with

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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This episode is sponsored by a company I've literally been using for over 15 years now

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and that is 511.

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Now my introduction to their products began when I started wearing 511 uniforms years

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The backpack where I keep all my recording equipment is a 511 backpack and then most

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of my civilian gear, the clothes that I wear are also 511.

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Now more recently they've actually branched out into the brick and mortar stores.

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So for example Gainesville where I do jiu-jitsu has a beautiful 511 store.

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responders.

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community.

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They've created an ultralight pack now with a hydration system built in for rucking, running

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or other long distance events.

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So if you want to hear more about 511 and their origin story, go to episode 338 of Behind

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the Shield podcast with their CEO Francisco Morales.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always.

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My name is James Gearing.

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And this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, former Pennsylvania State Trooper

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and Operation Enduring Warrior alumni, Alex Douglas.

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Now for those who don't recognize the name, Alex was one of two troopers that was ambushed

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back in 2014.

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His fellow trooper Brian Dixon was murdered.

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And although Alex survived the incident, he ultimately had to amputate one of his legs.

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So we discuss a host of topics from his own journey into law enforcement, how the events

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unfolded that day, the manhunt that led to the capture of the murderer, Alex's physical

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and mental recovery, the decision to amputate, how meeting Earl Granville led him to be one

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of the first OEW law enforcement honorees and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredibly powerful conversation, as I say every week, please

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just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 950 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Alex Douglas.

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Enjoy.

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Well Alex, I want to start by saying firstly, thank you to you for coming on the Behind

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the Shield podcast and also thank you to Earl Granville who I met at the OEW gala again

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recently and he was adamant that I needed to connect with you and bring you on the show.

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So welcome.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you today?

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I'm actually at my residence today for once then next week I go out to Oklahoma for an

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event and so on and so forth.

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So I'm kind of like Earl, I know you spoke to Earl, he always travels a lot so kind of

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like the same way.

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Absolutely.

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All right, well then I would have to start at the very beginning of your timeline then.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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So I was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

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That's where I grew up.

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I still live pretty close to the area, it's only like 20 minutes away from where I'm at

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now.

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My father was a school teacher, my mom was a stay at home mom.

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I have one older brother who's three years older than I am.

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He resides in Long Island, New York and he's also a school teacher.

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Nobody except my grandfather was in the military.

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Nobody in our family was a police officer except for me.

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I heard you on the Freedoms Pulse podcast talking about your granddad and how that kind

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of inspired you to join the uniform professions.

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What conflict was he in and what were some of the stories he would tell you when you

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were younger?

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So he was a lieutenant colonel in World War II in charge of the gunnery division and he

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was a lifelong military career individual.

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When he passed away I was only about seven years old so I didn't really get to sit down

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and talk to him about detailed stuff.

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My dad kind of fills me in a lot on what he went through with my grandfather and everything

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like that, traveling and different forts like Fort Bragg.

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They had to live there for a while.

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My dad was still very proud of my grandfather and still tells the stories about him and

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everything like that.

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He was very inspiring to me personally.

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I kind of have that mentality of either wanting to do something with the military or law enforcement

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or something like that to that aspect just because like I said he kind of encouraged

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me and motivated me to do that kind of career.

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When we talk about the World War II generation and we just had the eight-year anniversary

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of the Normandy landing, the rhetoric normally is that they were the greatest generation

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and they came back and they rolled up their sleeves and they made America great.

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But then when you actually get to speak to either the children of or in some cases I've

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sat down with World War II veterans, you realize that no, there was absolutely a cost, especially

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for some of these men and women that were on the front line.

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That was kind of suppressed and then now we finally start talking about mental health

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and we're like, oh yeah, but you guys can't because you're the greatest generation.

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You just need to carry on being awesome.

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So did you ever hear any state stories relayed by your father of the impact of the war that

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he served in?

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Nothing specifically.

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Kind of like you said, I think a lot of those guys, they kind of held it in.

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Like you said, rolled their sleeves up and went to work and when he came back, he rode

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out the rest of his, I think, 25 years in that military career and then he became a

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IRS agent and I think a postal worker.

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So like I said, I think he just kind of rolled his sleeves up and moved forward.

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And then kind of you probably spoke to a couple Vietnam vets and so on and so forth and you

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kind of see how the generations, the mental effect of war kind of hits them different.

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You know, like I spoke to a bunch of Vietnam vets and a lot of them are kind of disturbed

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over what they've seen, what they've experienced over in Vietnam.

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And then you see like today's generation, you know, how it messes.

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I think it's just, I don't know what has changed, but it seems like the mental effect has gotten

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worse, unfortunately.

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Well, then as you call it, as everyone calls it, the greatest generation, you know.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think the one thing that I would assume happened in the 40s is that because we were

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all pulled into it, especially, you know, my country originally, we were being bombed

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by the Germans, you know, in America, you know, Pearl Harbor obviously was the only

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attack on quote unquote American soil.

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But you know, the rest of the world, they were occupied and invaded or, you know, being

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blitzed.

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And so I think there was this resounding sense of relief and this resounding sense of gratitude

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for all the allied nations.

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But then you have Korea.

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I mean, I feel bad for that generation that went over there.

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And I've just learned a little bit more about it.

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I mean, they literally saved Korea.

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The North Koreans were almost all the way through South Korea.

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And it was again, the allies that pushed them all the way back.

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And they came back, you know, to kind of like shoulder shrugging.

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And then the Vietnam vets came back to being spat and being called baby killers.

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So that homecoming element is important.

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And now you've got our most recent veterans like Earl, who fought for anywhere from one

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to 20 years.

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And then they see things like, you know, Iraq going back to the way it was or the horrendous

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Afghan withdrawal that we had and, you know, leaving our allies and our interpreters.

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So I think that the biggest part is not only the war itself, but how we treated not only

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our soldiers, but our allies, you know, once we left.

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Yeah, no, I agree.

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100% of Korea's what do they call it?

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The forgotten war, basically, you know, and if you really kind of got deep into it or

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read books or seen movies on it, those guys have went through hell to, you know, just

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like the World War two guys.

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But, you know, sadly enough, you know, a lot of them, that war is kind of forgotten, unfortunately,

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you know.

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Absolutely.

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Well, going back to your early life, what about sports and athletics?

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What were you doing and playing?

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So I played football in high school and I did track and field.

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Then I got into like powerlifting and stuff like that later on in high school.

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And then after that, I graduated.

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I went to the University of Scranton and took finance and economics and graduated in four

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years with two bachelor degrees.

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And I didn't play any sports in college.

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I just kind of focused on my graduate studies.

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When you look back now, and I always ask people this, you played a team sport and then arguably

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an individual sport, even though you were part of a team when you're on that platform

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lifting or, you know, with you're on the track, you know, no one else is pushing you while

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you're running, for example.

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What did you take away from the team element?

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What did you take away from the individual element of the sports you did as a child?

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So I mean, being a team member is definitely important.

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You spoke to Earl.

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He talks a lot about, you know, being a team member and kind of growing up, that's what

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I was taught to be.

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Win or lose, you're still a team member.

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You help your teammates out no matter what.

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And, you know, you play your heart out, you know, and that's what I gathered from doing

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in all sports, track and field and, you know, football.

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You're still a team member no matter what you win or lose.

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You're still helping each other out and you're still, you know, it's your friend, it's your

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buddy next to you, you know.

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What about the individual side?

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I mean, for example, a lot of the people that were runners and my son was one miler, you

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know, you're on your own.

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And the only thing that you're really fighting is that voice in your head saying slow down

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or stop.

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Yeah, like our daughter just started track this year and, you know, surprisingly she

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did really well.

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She broke some records and everything like that.

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And she I told her, you know, when you're running by yourself like that and especially

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against other teams, you know, other different teams, you really as an individual, that mentality

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just has to kick in of, you know, I want to win, I want to be the best and I want to try

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my heart out.

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And that's how I always, you know, grew up.

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And that's what I told her.

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And I hope that she kind of took that inside her and that's what pushed her a little bit.

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We mentioned about doing finance in university, you know, but you also talked about being

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inspired to be in uniform by your grandfather.

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What was that initial career aspiration and how did that make a turn into law enforcement?

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So, I went, like I said, for finance and economics at the university.

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A couple of times I would go for internships in New York City and Philadelphia with these

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financial companies.

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And I would see a lot of these guys just sitting in cubicles, sitting there crunching numbers

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all day.

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And I'm like, you know, that's not for me.

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I got to be a hands on type of person.

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But like I said, even before I started college, that was 2001.

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And I was a freshman when 9-11 happened.

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And right off the bat, I wanted to go into the military.

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My father said, like, don't go into the military.

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It's kind of like it's going to be like Vietnam for how it was for us.

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It's going to be your Vietnam.

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This war is going to be bad.

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You know, guys are going to be getting killed and everything like that.

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You're safer if you go to school and do something safe.

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And I said, well, how about like I'd be a police officer?

230
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And he said that's that's he said that quote unquote, that's safe.

231
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You should do that.

232
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,440
You know, if you want to do that, do that.

233
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,800
And our neighbor was actually joined in the state police at the time.

234
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:50,800
This was about 2004.

235
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So I was about a junior in college at the time when I kind of switched over and decided

236
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,840
that's kind of what I wanted to do.

237
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And I started testing for the state police, the Pennsylvania State Police.

238
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And as I started testing, I went right through the process.

239
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,800
And it was literally my senior year.

240
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,200
I took my last final exam on a Friday and I went into the State Police Academy in Hershey,

241
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,160
Pennsylvania on Sunday.

242
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:23,520
So it was a big change, a quick change from college life to what they call a paramilitary

243
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,160
organization type of life.

244
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,200
I worked on a summer camp for six years and I think it was one of the first years I was

245
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,200
there.

246
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,700
There's this beautiful blonde girl and she was from Hershey, Pennsylvania.

247
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:40,160
And she talked about the kind of chocolate theme park that were there.

248
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,560
I'm assuming your experience was a little less enjoyable.

249
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,760
So talk to me about what your academy looked like from the state trooper point of view.

250
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,480
So yeah, we did a lot of physical, we did a lot of book work and everything like that.

251
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,520
And they kind of critiqued it as, you know, like the Citadel Academy in South Carolina

252
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:04,840
or West Point in New York where you had a lot of book work, but you had a lot of physical

253
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,640
hands on stuff that you were doing.

254
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,560
But yeah, to mention what you just said, I still remember to this day and that was over

255
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,960
almost 20 years ago where, you know, you could smell the chocolate.

256
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:22,640
You know, we're up where the Academy was is up on a hill right next to where their chocolate

257
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:23,640
factory is.

258
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,040
And you could smell the chocolate.

259
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,620
You could hear the park across the street, the people playing in the summer because I

260
00:17:28,620 --> 00:17:34,160
started in the Academy in May and I was there the whole summer until December.

261
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,960
And you know, it was just mentally it was hard because you saw these people having fun

262
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,600
and going on vacation, but you're stuck there doing the training, you know.

263
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:49,040
So so yeah, that definitely brings back memories from what you were just saying.

264
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,040
I just want to underline.

265
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,600
I said I met a girl at a summer camp.

266
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,320
It was one of the counselors, not one of the children.

267
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,240
This one sound like a pedo for a second.

268
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,600
So talk to me then about the baseline physical fitness, defensive tactics.

269
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,000
Like, what were you guys being taught the front door?

270
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,760
So we would do a lot of running.

271
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,120
We started out just with a mile.

272
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:13,240
We started easing into it and we worked our way up to almost like eight mile runs towards

273
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,120
the end of the Archimedes Academy stint.

274
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:24,960
We did a lot of as a police officer, patrol tactics, self-defense tactics like Brazilian

275
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,880
Jiu Jitsu type, you know, self-defense.

276
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,440
We they have an indoor swimming pool.

277
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:38,200
So you're doing a lot of swimming, tactical stuff inside the pool.

278
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,720
They actually taught us to take off our shirts, our work shirts and make actually a flotation

279
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,880
device out of those shirts, which is kind of cool, you know, in case you had to rescue

280
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,480
somebody.

281
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,200
And a lot of it, like I said, was book work.

282
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,680
But the physical aspect we did what we call like police skills where you're doing a lot

283
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,720
of pit maneuvers and patrol vehicles.

284
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,200
Then you had the range aspect of it where you're constantly every day shooting and firing

285
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,440
different types of weapons and everything like that, different targets and different

286
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,120
scenarios.

287
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:14,120
What have you seen?

288
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:17,200
Obviously, we're kind of spanning further forward now, but what have you seen as far

289
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,720
as the even the the will be the right word, the metamorphosis of those skills?

290
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,480
I mean, you mentioned Jiu Jitsu in 2004, 2005, that's actually very progressive for a law

291
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,240
enforcement agency.

292
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,240
What is what has grown out of that initial experience that you had?

293
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:39,760
Are you saying for myself personally or just in the in the in the training side?

294
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,720
Because I mean, we've got this conversation about defund and all this stuff, and they're

295
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:48,080
literally trying to push the law enforcement community backwards 50 years.

296
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,400
But it sounds like you're in a very diligent environment when you're swimming or all this

297
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,400
physical fitness.

298
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,760
It sounds like you've got more progressive defensive tactics at the front door.

299
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,480
What was that kind of evolution that you witnessed once you were in that that law enforcement

300
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,120
agency?

301
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:10,280
So in my opinion, I mean, from what I've experienced, this is 2005.

302
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:17,120
I mean, our academy from I haven't been there to personally witness, but like from friends

303
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,080
of mine that actually teach there and work there at the academy, they said our tactical

304
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:28,560
program has definitely increased in a good way, more advanced and everything like that.

305
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:34,440
And I think over the years from from what I've heard from older guys that retired back

306
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,440
in the 1980s and 90s and stuff like that and what they went through, we definitely improved

307
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,400
our skills.

308
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,160
But then again, like you said, right now you're looking at all these people videotaping in,

309
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,040
you know, you got to look out for that kind of stuff.

310
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,080
And when I went through the academy, there is half the stuff that we were taught back

311
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,160
then wouldn't fly right now.

312
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,840
I mean, you'd be lambasted right now because of all that.

313
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,800
You know, like you said, defunct the police and all this other stuff that nonsense that's

314
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:02,800
going on, you know.

315
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,200
So I don't know exactly what they're teaching them down there on how to deal with that.

316
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,920
But it's kind of a scary situation, you know, because not only are you you know, you're

317
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:19,880
out there protecting others, protecting yourself and your your, you know, coworkers, but you're

318
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,400
double thinking and triple thinking on what kind of move you're going to make next based

319
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,440
on, you know, am I going to be lamb based in the media or, you know, am I going to be

320
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,440
videotaped?

321
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,880
And then, you know, everyone, you know, everyone's going to be you're going to be that person,

322
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,920
you know what I mean on the news that that everyone's like, oh, why did he do that?

323
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,240
Or what did he do that for?

324
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,480
You know, and it's just I think it's just a bad situation right now for us.

325
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:46,480
You know?

326
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,480
Yeah, no, it is.

327
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:48,480
It's so sad.

328
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,920
And the answer is support and training and putting, you know, hiring standards back up

329
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,040
where they belong so you don't start hiring people that are truly going to be a problem

330
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,040
down the road.

331
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,320
But if you take away the funding, take away the support, that's exactly what people are

332
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,320
going to get.

333
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,200
Yeah, you're not going to get that, you know, that group.

334
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:12,080
And I kind of I saw it with like with our, you know, state police, the Pennsylvania state

335
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,000
police now there, you know, they had to lower some of their standards because I guess they're

336
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,440
not getting enough applicants.

337
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,360
And I don't know how that's going.

338
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,040
I don't know what kind of, you know, applicants are going to be getting.

339
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,640
But if you lower your standards, like you said, you're not going to be getting that

340
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:32,320
quality person that you've gotten before based on the higher standards, you know, unfortunately.

341
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,880
And I think it's it's a mixed of, you know, decreased of funding and, you know, people

342
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,640
just don't want to do the job because they see what's going on now.

343
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,800
You know, a lot of police officers like I said before, my father said, you know, this

344
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,640
is like this past war, like Afghanistan and Iraq is like they're Vietnam, you know, and

345
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,440
it's almost like the police and I talked to Earl about this all the time.

346
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,960
And he's like, it's like the police are like it's like, you know, when the Vietnam vets

347
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,160
were coming back from Vietnam and they were spit on and, you know, you know, called different

348
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,440
names and baby killers and all that, you know, it's kind of like that's how kind of how the

349
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,400
police are right now, you know, how people look at the police, you know, it's it's a

350
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,920
very negative point of view, I think, you know, it's scary.

351
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,120
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting as well, because, I mean, we have the same conversation, the

352
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:24,320
fire service and for us, we're not viewed the same way as you guys are.

353
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,200
We still have an element of that respect, you know, an admiration, even though you and

354
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,640
I do the same exact job side by side, obviously different skill set.

355
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,640
But you know, we're on the same streets.

356
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,040
But, you know, for us, it's the work environment, our firefighters are being worked into the

357
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,680
ground, you know, and that's affecting everything from mental health, physical health, to relationships.

358
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,440
And the same thing, young people looking going, that doesn't sound so good.

359
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:53,080
And the money shit, you know, so the way that you fix that is not to lower standards, it's

360
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,640
to fix the things that are broken.

361
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,520
And the same with law enforcement and not just focus on law enforcement, fix the things

362
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:04,320
that are creating bad people in our society, because they all started off as a toddler

363
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,320
once.

364
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,380
You don't get a kid coming out going, I'm going to be a murderer, you know, they want

365
00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:12,440
to be a police officer and a firefighter and a teacher and a doctor.

366
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,120
And so we're, you know, we're ruining these young children, which is creating so much

367
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,560
crime on our streets.

368
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,440
But by lowering the standard, I think a perfect analogy would be lifeguard.

369
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,320
Lower the lower the swimming standards for lifeguard.

370
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,320
Can you swim?

371
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,520
Well, I can fucking doggy paddle a little bit.

372
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:27,520
All right, you're in beautiful.

373
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,520
You know what I mean?

374
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,920
It's ridiculous when you put it into another profession.

375
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,840
That's the same for police and fire.

376
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,280
Yeah, it's so true.

377
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,280
Good point.

378
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,000
You know, we're going back to your your journey.

379
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,240
And so you come out of the academy, where are you assigned?

380
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,040
And what is your rookie experience?

381
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,880
So I was first assigned in a county in Pennsylvania called Schoolkill County.

382
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,560
It was about 60 minutes from my hometown of Scranton.

383
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,480
And at the time, our contract stated that we had to spend about three years in that

384
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,660
troop before we could transfer out.

385
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:03,120
So I spent about three years down in that area.

386
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:09,880
And then when it was time, I, you know, put my transfer card in and was transferred up

387
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,760
to Pike County, which is the northeast part of the state of Pennsylvania.

388
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,120
And that's where I, you know, remained most of my career when I was both in Schoolkill

389
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:22,120
County and Pike County.

390
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,920
I worked mostly midnight shifts.

391
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,500
And when we worked midnight shifts, it was always two guys, two troopers in a vehicle

392
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:32,040
at night.

393
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,400
So what's your thoughts on that?

394
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,880
This is something I've discussed and bear in mind, I'm a firefighter, a paramedic, not

395
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:37,880
a police officer.

396
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:45,880
But if you wrote down on a piece of paper, OK, here's what, here's how we organize our

397
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,600
police officers in this city.

398
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,140
You know, one is in a car and they go because we want to get more cars on the road.

399
00:25:52,140 --> 00:25:56,680
But you've got a certain individual that rolls up to two people, domestic violence, traffic

400
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,840
stop and they're on their own.

401
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,520
To the layman eyes, in my opinion, that seems like insanity.

402
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,080
If you're not within the profession, we've always done it that way.

403
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,080
It seems insane.

404
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,320
And you've got a unique perspective because you had an experience of both.

405
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,680
If you're on days, you're in, I'm assuming on your own.

406
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,080
If you're at nights, you've got to do a car.

407
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,600
What is your philosophy on having two to a vehicle as a force multiplier in the world

408
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,600
of law enforcement?

409
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:26,040
I mean, having two in a vehicle is definitely safer all around.

410
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,200
I personally felt safer with somebody with me, no matter who the person was.

411
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,680
I mean, it's always better to have two people.

412
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,480
The other thing, I think, like going back to how we are, how society is now, if you

413
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,880
have two people in a vehicle, you have somebody else who can witness what's going on, because

414
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:50,480
I think today you kind of need that, you know, just how society is and how they react against

415
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,160
police or even fire or EMS, you know, you hear about like the EMS was it wasn't too

416
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,160
long ago.

417
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,160
We're there ambush, weren't they?

418
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,440
Somebody I believe they came to it.

419
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,240
Maybe it was a domestic or something like that, and they showed up first and poor guys

420
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,240
are ambushed.

421
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,440
I think a couple of them got killed, unfortunately, you know.

422
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:17,920
Yeah, it's scary, you know, but it's always better to have more than less, you know.

423
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,240
But like I said, I saw both ways.

424
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:26,000
I worked day shifts too, some of the time, and it would just be a different scenario.

425
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,360
You know, you'd have people, you'd be fighting with two different people if you went to a

426
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,320
domestic and you're by yourself, you would have the husband and wife jumping on your

427
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,320
back.

428
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,600
It's like, you don't know.

429
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:36,840
You know, so you're by yourself.

430
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,920
It's kind of scary, but you got to deal with what you got to deal with.

431
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,000
And fortunately, we had very good training going back to our academy and everything like

432
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,000
that on how to deal with it.

433
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,120
What is your view because you talked about jujitsu, you talked about physical fitness.

434
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:59,480
What is your perception of a well-trained officer, meaning they're in good physical

435
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:06,960
shape, they are confident in their combative skills as a deterrent to actually having to

436
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,240
go hands on because it seems like most of the law enforcement officers I've had that

437
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,680
fit that bill arguably have the less hands on experience.

438
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,240
And it makes perfect sense if you're pulled over by someone with a with cauliflower ears

439
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,720
that's in great shape.

440
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,280
You thinking you're going to fight that person, I would imagine, would diminish immensely.

441
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:35,400
Yeah, I mean, just having the physical build and the physical look as if someone's in shape,

442
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,200
you know, will deter that individual usually, you know, unless they're on some type of narcotic

443
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,760
as I've dealt with that before, too, where they just don't carry their way.

444
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:52,080
And, you know, that, you know, having being in that physical shape and looking, you know,

445
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,460
somewhat intimidating, you know, will deter that individual from even thinking or even

446
00:28:57,460 --> 00:29:00,800
going back to like how we're taught in the academy, like as long as you're, you know,

447
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:06,040
your uniforms, knee and pressed and you look squared away and you don't look like a slob,

448
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,400
you know, that also, you know, deters people.

449
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,880
But one of the most dangerous things is if you're a police officer, you're not experienced,

450
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,400
you know, if you're not if you personally, if you've never been in a fight before, that's

451
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,760
scary, you know, because you're not going to know what to do when it comes down to it.

452
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,280
If you're not in that shape, if you're overweight, and we see it so much that a lot of these

453
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,440
officers are overweight and out of shape.

454
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,880
And what even makes it scarier is when they don't really know what they're doing.

455
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,320
You know, they act like they know what they're doing, but they don't know what they're doing.

456
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,800
And I've encountered that before.

457
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,080
And that's what makes it even more scary, you know.

458
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:49,680
But yeah, just having that deterrence of, you know, being built, being in shape, they're

459
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,000
not going to usually, you know, nine out of 10 times somebody is not going to come after

460
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,600
you because they're going to know what they're going to get their ass kicked.

461
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,360
There was a video recently, I think it was in New York, this police officer and he had

462
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,880
someone partially cuffed and he tried to try to make a run for it.

463
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,160
And he flung him like a rag doll ended up in full mount, you know, and it was like, all

464
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,160
right, there's your training.

465
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,600
There's your fitness, you know, and that guy wasn't shot, you know, he's still survived.

466
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,040
He might be a little bruised up, but he's not dead.

467
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,280
But what scares me and we're talking about the training standards is when you bring those

468
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:25,080
standards down, police and fire, in my opinion, you actually increase the chance of a civilian

469
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,840
or a police officer dying because of that very preventative thing that we just talked

470
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,840
about.

471
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,640
Yeah, yeah, it's it's taking away their training that they need, you know.

472
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,120
No, I agree 100 percent on that.

473
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,240
Not just that, it's taken away their weapon tactics.

474
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,000
But yeah, more so the skill level, the hands on defense, it's taking away that kind of

475
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,000
stuff that they need out there, you know, and especially now with these people who want

476
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,120
to fight the police and, you know, they don't care, you know, they need it more now than

477
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,120
ever.

478
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,640
And it's being taken away, like you said, you know, it's unfortunate.

479
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,640
Absolutely.

480
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Well, you mentioned about not having law enforcement and family.

481
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,080
What were some of the calls or aha moments that you started having?

482
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,720
Because I mean, you know, when you put the uniform on and, you know, traverse some of

483
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:18,160
the streets that we do, you see the real society, you know, where they say warts and all.

484
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,160
So were there any calls or kind of aha moments that you started having as the years progressed

485
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,560
that you were oblivious to as a civilian prior?

486
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:26,560
Oh, yeah.

487
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:33,000
I mean, there was a time right from my first year on, you know, the rate of suicides that

488
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,920
you never think really happens or how they happen or what they actually look like or,

489
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,040
you know, kids, middle aged people.

490
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,320
I had an 87 year old guy who shot his head off with a shotgun.

491
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,120
You know, it looked like a dummy, one of those mannequins at Walmart around Halloween, you

492
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,920
know, just had the skin kind of like hanging off no head on.

493
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,980
And it's kind of like unrealistic, you know.

494
00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:58,960
And then the fatalities, that's another thing, you know, that we dealt with.

495
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,120
And I'm sure you guys deal with them with fire and EMS, you know, all different age

496
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,120
groups.

497
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:11,160
And it's, you know, it's a lot of them touch you, you know, internally, mentally, especially

498
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,640
if they're a younger, younger group of people that are involved in these tragic incidents,

499
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,360
you know, it's you go home, they always taught us in the academy, you know, don't bring work

500
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,080
home with you, shut it off, you know, when you leave work.

501
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,320
But you know, that's that's not true.

502
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640
You go home and you're still thinking about it, you're thinking about it for weeks, you

503
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,960
know.

504
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,960
But there's specific incidents that, you know, still stick in my head this day that happened,

505
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:41,040
you know, 15, 16, 17 years ago, you know, that still have a place, you know, in my head.

506
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,700
And you still remember them, you can't turn that off, you know.

507
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:50,080
And that's stuff that you never being a citizen that you never knew really happened, you know,

508
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,080
and I try to explain it to my wife and stuff.

509
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,280
And she just, you know, she understands it, but she doesn't, you know what I mean?

510
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:02,200
Like she you have to be there to to witness it, you know, unfortunately, to fully understand

511
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,200
it.

512
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,200
100 percent.

513
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,200
I think that's what people don't understand.

514
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,880
You ask a firefighter, you know, what's the worst thing you've seen?

515
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,440
And you should never ask that question.

516
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,600
But it's not going to be many fires that cycle in our minds.

517
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,760
It's going to be the wrecks, mostly the wrecks.

518
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,760
Yeah.

519
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,680
So and this is what really kind of angers me, for lack of a better word.

520
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,480
So many of those are preventable and coming from a country where the driving test is extremely

521
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,480
hard.

522
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,960
Most people take two or three attempts to pass it.

523
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,920
And it's you know, you normally have a whole load of lessons with a professional driver

524
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,880
first teacher.

525
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,240
But they I mean, you just have to take a deep, deep dive into the why behind driving.

526
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,240
There's a lot of skills.

527
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,240
Yes.

528
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,480
But there's also, you know, understanding, sharing the road and why use a blinker and

529
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,720
why you keep distance and the changes in weather.

530
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,040
And I think if I got this right, I think the UK has per capita like a tenth of the fatalities

531
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,200
that we have, even though our roads are way more dangerous over there because you don't

532
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,600
have medians and barriers and any of that stuff.

533
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:07,120
And so I look at back in my career and all the deaths that we had and we lose 40,000

534
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,520
people every year in cars lose.

535
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,720
So obviously, hundreds of thousands of maimed, you know, no question about that.

536
00:34:12,720 --> 00:34:16,780
I think it's five or six million actual accidents every year.

537
00:34:16,780 --> 00:34:22,920
I have never, ever seen anyone, politician media talk about we should change the way

538
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,320
that we do driving, whether it's, you know, I mean, there could be a combination of things.

539
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,700
The actual age, I think I think personally is a little young for a child be behind a

540
00:34:30,700 --> 00:34:31,960
death machine.

541
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,520
But the standards that we teach people like go look at a roundabout in America.

542
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,400
People have no fucking idea what they're doing.

543
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,120
You know, it's like this is the problem.

544
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,120
There's no education.

545
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,440
So you can't really blame the individual.

546
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,200
You know, it's like, again, in the ocean, like, do you need to swim?

547
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:47,200
Just go get wet.

548
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,200
You'll be fine.

549
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,200
You won't be fine.

550
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,920
I need to teach you how to swim and what rib ties that like and all these other things.

551
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,480
It's so easy to pass a driver's test here in the US.

552
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,400
I mean, I don't know if you had to take one here or not.

553
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,400
I did.

554
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:00,400
And it was a fucking joke.

555
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,400
Yeah.

556
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,040
Compared to what you were just talking about at the UK, you know, it's it really is.

557
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,800
They basically hand them out to anyone and everyone.

558
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,080
I think that's the problem.

559
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:09,080
You know.

560
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,080
So so what's your kind of perception on that?

561
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,080
Because I mean, you're on the roads even more than I was.

562
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,280
You know, what have there been any pushes to change things?

563
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,360
Because I feel like, again, it's just a bunch of shoulder shrugging like, oh, well, that's

564
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,120
what happens on the roads rather than someone going, you know, we can actually stop a lot

565
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,120
of these, right?

566
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,520
We can save a lot of these children that, you know, these teenagers that are dying because

567
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,360
they think they're too fast and too furious and these elderly people that, you know, are

568
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,560
pulling out in front of motorcycles.

569
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:38,560
Yeah, exactly.

570
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,400
I mean, there are ways to actually reduce these numbers dramatically, but I've never

571
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,200
heard anyone discuss it.

572
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,000
Yeah, you know, that's it's a really good point.

573
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,000
It's a really good question.

574
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,360
I never actually even thought about it.

575
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,640
You know, usually I'm driving and I'm cursing up a storm because like you said, that old

576
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,840
person comes in front and usually when I say that person shouldn't have a license, you

577
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,000
know, or time to stop driving, you know, and that's I leave it at that.

578
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,000
But yeah, that's it.

579
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,000
No, that's a really good point.

580
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,240
And I never really even thought of that.

581
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:13,120
You know, the only thing that I've noticed, I mean, maybe in the past 20 years, they increased,

582
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:20,480
I believe the the so you get like your your driver's permit before you get your license

583
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,120
and you know, you're practicing with somebody who's I believe 18 or older in that vehicle

584
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:26,120
with you.

585
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,720
And you know, number one, I don't think an 18 year old should be teaching, you know,

586
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:31,720
16 year old how to drive.

587
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:37,120
I think it should be a lot older than that, maybe 25 or older type of person in that vehicle.

588
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:44,320
But besides that, it's you know, the mentality of some of these people, like it's not even

589
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,320
the driving skills.

590
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,840
They just go crazy in their head and they think they're, you know, they'll earn hard

591
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,960
or something, you know, and they think, you know, they they'll never die.

592
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,880
They'll live forever and they just go.

593
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,400
And that's that's the problem, you know.

594
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,600
But no, it's also the training, like the skill.

595
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680
It's just so easy here in the US, like we said, to get a driver's license.

596
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,280
They basically hand them out to anyone and everyone without anything.

597
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,640
But the only thing I've seen, like I said, was they increased that permit, I believe

598
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,560
to go from the permit to the driver's license, that monthly span, that requirement that they

599
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:19,560
have, I believe.

600
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,320
I believe they increased it as far as I know.

601
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,040
And from what I've heard from other people, but other than that, they what's that really

602
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,040
going to do?

603
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,400
You know what I mean?

604
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,240
You're just increasing their time out on the road.

605
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,360
I mean, practicing, but I don't think that's going to really help.

606
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,360
But I don't know.

607
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,360
There should be a change to it.

608
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,360
I agree.

609
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,180
Yeah, well, I just watched my son because he's almost 17 now.

610
00:37:44,180 --> 00:37:47,120
So at 15, he had his permit.

611
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:52,120
And then, you know, I'm sure you could imagine when you've done what we do, you're super

612
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,960
diligent and train this child in every way you can.

613
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,340
And every and I'm a shit magnet on the road.

614
00:37:57,340 --> 00:38:00,880
So he gets many opportunities to see what bad drivers look like because I seem to attract

615
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,880
him like, you know, flies on.

616
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,320
But yeah, but it's like, OK, let me get you comfortable maneuvering the vehicle, which

617
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,040
is all the DMV is going to test you.

618
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,520
But then let's now talk about, you know, everyone else on the road and what we can do.

619
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,200
I mean, even if she won the first time that he drove after he got his test, like when

620
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,480
I was rape rape vans, you know, the white one right in front of him at 50 mile an hour

621
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,080
roads, the guy must have been drunk.

622
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,200
And then we're just like, you know, this is this is it.

623
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,200
It's everyone else that you got to train for.

624
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,000
But if you've got a bad driver training a child, then you've just got another bad driver.

625
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,600
You know, so, you know, there's this whole conversation about kids today is that, yeah,

626
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,560
well, kids today were raised by adults today.

627
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,080
So we're responsible for kids today.

628
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,080
You know what I mean?

629
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,840
So you can't just sit back and bitch about kids today.

630
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,680
If you've got a child and you raised them, are they good or are they bad?

631
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,260
And it's the same with the driving.

632
00:38:51,260 --> 00:38:56,360
You can make sure that, you know, your child comes home at night, you know, and if they're

633
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,680
friends in the car, they all get to their home safely, too.

634
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,840
But if you're not Uber hands on, especially in this low bar country, when it comes to

635
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,040
driving, you may well have you or me showing up telling the parents that your kid was just

636
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,040
killed.

637
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,040
Yeah.

638
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,760
Yeah, it's sad.

639
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:13,760
Yeah.

640
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,760
All right.

641
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,520
Well, then moving forward in your career, let's get to September 12th, 2014.

642
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,720
Talk to me about, you know, the the kind of shift prior to that.

643
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,520
And then let's walk through to that evening.

644
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,520
All right.

645
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:33,240
So on September 12, 2014, I was working well, we'll go back to September 11th.

646
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,480
I was working a midnight shift.

647
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,560
And then that next morning, I was asked to work a overtime shift in a construction zone

648
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,620
for a couple of hours.

649
00:39:42,620 --> 00:39:47,840
And once I finished up that shift, September 12th, the morning of September 12th, I called

650
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,800
the supervisor and I requested that I go home in uniform and take a patrol vehicle home

651
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:58,480
with me just because I only had a couple hours to sleep and then come into my next midnight

652
00:39:58,480 --> 00:39:59,960
shift.

653
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,920
And a bunch of us would carpool from the same area.

654
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,240
We lived about 30 minutes.

655
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,640
There was four of us that worked the midnight shift and we all lived about 30 minutes right

656
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,520
from the station.

657
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:12,720
So we would all carpool.

658
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:17,360
So that night I picked those guys up, three other guys, three other troopers and drove

659
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,440
up to the barracks.

660
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,720
And once I pulled in, those three guys got out, went in the back door and were getting

661
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:24,960
changed.

662
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:31,100
And I was actually prepping to run a local marathon that October.

663
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:34,720
So the next morning I was planning on going for a 10 mile run with a friend of mine.

664
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:39,880
So what I basically did, I packed the gym bag, threw it in the patrol vehicle and then

665
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,080
I was out in that parking lot.

666
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,240
I was transferring that bag into my personal vehicle.

667
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:49,040
And at that point in time, that's when I heard what sounded like fireworks going off.

668
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,000
The first thing that I thought of was there's an individual down the street who sells fireworks.

669
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,960
It's right after our Labor Day holiday, September.

670
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,040
He's lighting off whatever he had left over.

671
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,160
And that's all that's going on.

672
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:09,080
But as I heard two simultaneous, what sounded like fireworks going off, I looked up into

673
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,560
the front of our station, which was up on a hill from where the parking lot was.

674
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,000
And I noticed an individual laying out there in front of the station.

675
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,400
The second thing that came to my mind was the last, now this is during shift change.

676
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,600
So the prior shift is some of those guys are leaving.

677
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,480
Some of them are still in the station and our shift just came in to take over.

678
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,840
And I'm thinking somebody from that prior shift just picked up a DUI suspect and they

679
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,000
fingerprinted them and they put them in the lobby and nobody's watching them now.

680
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,400
And now the guy wandered out drunk waiting for a ride, somebody to pick him up.

681
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,320
And now he fell and probably cracked his head open.

682
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,720
And now we got to go deal with this.

683
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:52,960
So I start walking closer and closer to this individual and I noticed it's one of our troopers

684
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:53,960
in uniform.

685
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,120
It was actually Corporal Brian Dixon.

686
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,840
And as I got closer, I noticed that he had a gunshot, like a wound bleeding from like

687
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,800
right about here, right above his vest.

688
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,400
And he was kind of turned on his side.

689
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,120
And I noticed there was some blood coming from his other side of the shoulder.

690
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,160
And he was just laying there with his firearm out.

691
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:19,600
And I believe at that point he was deceased, but I didn't know where the shots were coming

692
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:20,600
from.

693
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,040
So we had like another whole side of the building on the opposite side that I thought somebody

694
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,680
was over there maybe firing.

695
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,160
Somebody could have been in the lobby firing.

696
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,400
I didn't know what was going on.

697
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,720
Or we're across the street from this huge wooded state forest area that's acres and

698
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:40,120
acres of woods just with a back road going in front of our station.

699
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,920
And I'm thinking maybe that's where the gunshots are coming from.

700
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,040
So the weird thing is as I'm approaching him and getting closer, the thing based on our

701
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,080
training is never leave a man behind.

702
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,680
So I wasn't sure if he was totally deceased or not.

703
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,760
So my first initial thought was I got to get him inside to our station.

704
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,000
Well in front of our station, our entire station is cinder block, except there's two front

705
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,360
doors that are glass, two glass doors.

706
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,560
And then we have a lobby area and then we have another door that's solid wood that goes

707
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,600
into the actual station from the lobby.

708
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,420
So I'm thinking I got to get him inside to this lobby.

709
00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:24,760
And it's this weird thought that went through my head like I'm going to get shot.

710
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,000
Even before I got shot, I just this thought that went through my head like I'm going to

711
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,000
get shot.

712
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,000
I'm either going to die or I'm going to survive.

713
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,560
I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to get shot.

714
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,520
And I bent down and grabbed his leg to pull him in.

715
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,600
And worst pain of my life felt like I got hit by a baseball bat going across my back

716
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:47,480
and I just dropped right to the ground and I couldn't feel anything below my waist at

717
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,360
that point.

718
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,760
So I had to let go of him and unfortunately try to save myself.

719
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:59,200
So I went head first through the glass doors into the lobby.

720
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,360
And again, we weren't trained for something like this type of incident in the academy.

721
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,100
So just I don't know if it was growing up around what my father was telling me about

722
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:09,960
my grandfather and different stories.

723
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,600
And my father would make my brother and I sit there and watch war movies.

724
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,680
And I don't know.

725
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,640
I don't know what instinct brought to me.

726
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:24,160
But I knew if I crawled straight across from where those doors were into the lobby, that

727
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,200
individual could take another shot at me and I would have been dead.

728
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,460
So I first thought if I got to crawl across the perimeter of the inside of this cinder

729
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:36,400
block lobby to that door, you know, out of line of sight.

730
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,720
And that's what I ended up doing.

731
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:41,480
And two other troopers actually came out through that wooden door and I yelled to them, this

732
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,480
is what's going on.

733
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:43,480
Somebody's shooting at us.

734
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,480
I don't know how many people there are.

735
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,120
I don't even know what's going on, but we're getting shot at.

736
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,120
I'm shot.

737
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,480
Dixon's shot outside.

738
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:56,440
And you know, they pulled me in and some of the guys started doing CPR and I started receiving

739
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,280
medical attention from those guys.

740
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:06,400
And then a couple other guys went out in an SUV and tried to barricade and tried to block

741
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,480
two other guys who were coming through the lobby to grab Dixon and pull him inside.

742
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,120
And that's what they ended up doing was pulling him inside.

743
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,560
He was only laying like two or three feet away from me as I'm, you know, I'm laying

744
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,680
there bleeding out.

745
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,960
So it was kind of a shitty situation, to say the least.

746
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,160
That's horrendous.

747
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,400
Now as you fast forward, what did you start learning?

748
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,160
Because we'll get to your physical and mental kind of journey from there.

749
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,600
But what was the backstory about the individual that was firing those shots?

750
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,880
So the backstory was we never had personally any encounter with him and nobody at our station

751
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,420
did had any encounter with him in the past.

752
00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:53,680
He was, you know, taught by his father that government is bad and police are bad and military

753
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:54,680
is bad.

754
00:45:54,680 --> 00:46:00,760
And he wanted to start a government revolution and he was going after specifically, you know,

755
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,040
troopers in uniform or police officers in uniform.

756
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:11,280
We had a detective who was dressed in a button on shirt tie and khakis walk out maybe 10,

757
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,880
15 minutes before Brian Dixon walked out and no shots were fired.

758
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,440
And that individual is definitely sitting there because they had his cell phone ping

759
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,360
for like an hour or so before that.

760
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,400
So he was definitely going after guys in uniform and he wanted to start a government revolution

761
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,960
was quote unquote what he told investigators.

762
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,880
That must have messed with a detective's head knowing that they he literally would have

763
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,080
died had been wearing a different uniform.

764
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

765
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,880
Crazy, you know.

766
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:41,880
So let's get to the manhunt.

767
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,240
Then we'll get back to, you know, your journey from the lobby forward.

768
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,240
But he had a survival background.

769
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:53,520
He obviously had an element of brainwashing from his father, you know, ultimately a mentally

770
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:58,720
ill extremist like we see so often, no matter what religion or, you know, doctrine that

771
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:02,160
they belong to.

772
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,560
The manhunt started obviously quite small.

773
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:10,000
Talk to me about that camaraderie, that brother and sisterhood and the swelling of law enforcement

774
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,800
present that resulted in catching him.

775
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:17,260
So yeah, it first started, you know, obviously with our state troopers from different stations

776
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:20,740
and everything like that close by that came rushing to the scene.

777
00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:25,440
Then we had a lot of help from New Jersey state troopers, New York state troopers that

778
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,440
came.

779
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,920
They brought their special emergency teams in.

780
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,400
And then from there, like the FBI helped us out.

781
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:38,920
We had a lot of help that actually did a lot of the interrogation interview and interrogation

782
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:46,680
where the ATF tobacco and firearms guys and US marshals came in to help out and they

783
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:47,800
brought helicopters in.

784
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,560
But it was just crazy.

785
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,560
I mean, I was in the hospital at that time, so I didn't really know too much what was

786
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:54,560
going on.

787
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,440
But you would have guys coming in being like these guys came in, these guys are helping

788
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,440
out.

789
00:47:58,440 --> 00:47:59,440
Now these guys are coming in.

790
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,840
And it was just a crazy feeling that while like everyone's on our side, you know, to

791
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,880
come in to help us out and try to search for this individual.

792
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:08,880
Yeah.

793
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,000
Well, when I heard you talking about it on the other podcast, it just, you know, there's

794
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,400
some voices that like, oh, brotherhood, sisterhood is dead in the fire service and law enforcement.

795
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,200
You know, the thin blue line is bullshit.

796
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,280
But I disagree that group exists.

797
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:26,280
They may not be everyone, but when the shit hits the fan, same as 9-11, same as the London

798
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,040
bombings, you know, people come together and they show their true colors.

799
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,960
And it sounded like, you know, there was a resounding feeling within the law enforcement

800
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,200
community that they were going to find that fucker.

801
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,680
And you know, the more the better.

802
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Yeah, yeah.

803
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,760
No, like you've seen it firsthand and especially in the UK.

804
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:48,600
But that night and that whole couple of months, you know, the month that he was on the run

805
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,000
for, I've seen it firsthand.

806
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,600
You know, I'm a witness to that.

807
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,600
There's definitely a blue line, you know, and I don't think it's thin.

808
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,440
I think it's pretty thick, to be honest with you.

809
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,440
I mean, that's how I experienced it.

810
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:06,000
So now, again, before we progress to your journey, hopefully, you know, when things

811
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,440
like this happens, especially God forbid we lose someone, there's some sort of takeaway,

812
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:15,320
some sort of lesson that we can learn to make sure it never happens again or reduce the

813
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,520
chances of it happening again.

814
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,040
Were there any takeaways from because I heard, you know, that there were school counselors

815
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,960
worried about this individual when he was younger.

816
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,400
Were there any things that, you know, people listening now, red flags or anything like

817
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:33,880
that, that people that you teach or people can learn from that maybe would have assisted

818
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,760
in prevention or catching of this person?

819
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:43,120
Well, he specifically, like you said, I mean, there were, I guess, tons of different points

820
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,960
brought up about him throughout his life that people, I guess, more specifically his parents

821
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,920
ignored.

822
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,140
And that was the problem there.

823
00:49:51,140 --> 00:49:58,040
And I think they kind of, from my understanding, enforced or, you know, promoted what he was

824
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,040
doing.

825
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:06,320
You know, the father would let him use his own rifles, knowing that he, you know, the

826
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:10,880
school counselors or somebody else were telling him that he wasn't mentally well, you know,

827
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,040
and he just didn't care, you know.

828
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,000
So I think it has a lot with how you're raised, how you're being brought up, you know.

829
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:23,760
Unfortunately, I don't think people are really going to change too much in that mind factor.

830
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:28,640
We just, what was it not too long ago, where there was a school shooting and I believe

831
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,880
it was a 12 people passed away and they convicted the parents.

832
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,440
They held the parents accountable.

833
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:35,440
Remember that?

834
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,400
You know, maybe if they do more of that, maybe people kind of realize and kick themselves

835
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:41,560
in the ass, you know what I mean?

836
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:42,560
And get straightened out.

837
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,600
But I don't know.

838
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:50,240
Relating to my incident, nothing, I mean, besides our training and what to look out

839
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:54,760
for and if something, God forbid, happened like that again, they train that now at our

840
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:55,760
academy.

841
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:01,200
But other than that, the actual individuals changing them, I don't know if that's going

842
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,760
to change, unfortunately.

843
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,480
So you mentioned about lying in the lobby, you're staring, you know, at one of your brothers

844
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,480
who's deceased on the floor, a couple of feet from you.

845
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,280
Firstly, as far as the wounds, you know, what was the severity of the wound?

846
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,900
I mean, you were hit, but you can't feel your legs now.

847
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:23,640
So as they kind of took you through the medical journey, what did you discover had actually

848
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,580
happened from that shot?

849
00:51:26,580 --> 00:51:30,180
So I was shot, it went right through the left side of my back, right through my intestines

850
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:33,980
and down at an angle and went out through my right hip.

851
00:51:33,980 --> 00:51:43,360
And actually, it severed my sciatic nerve on my right side and blew out my total right

852
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,920
hip and femur shattered my femur in my right leg.

853
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:51,160
But like I said, it was the initial shock and everything that I just felt like I was

854
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,160
paralyzed.

855
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,000
That was the initial thought going through my head.

856
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,480
And you know, a lot of crazy stuff, I mean, Earl said it when he got blown up, you know,

857
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:04,760
a lot of crazy things when you're in a traumatic incident like that go through your head.

858
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,920
And one of the things was number one, I'm going to be out of work for a long time, which

859
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:08,920
was kind of funny.

860
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,240
You think about it because that's all I was thinking.

861
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:13,520
I don't have to go to work.

862
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:21,920
But the severity of it was I don't have to, you know, I'm going to be I'm not going to

863
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,960
be able to run again because I'm paralyzed.

864
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,400
You know, so that was kind of scary on my part.

865
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:32,800
And being the fact that I couldn't run again or you're thinking about being paralyzed,

866
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,280
I mean, it's a whole different life changer.

867
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,640
So as I was dragging myself in that those are the two main thoughts that were going

868
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:40,640
through my head.

869
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,280
You know, but yeah, I was shot when it went through my leg.

870
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:52,440
And then finally, when they were able to evacuate me medically to the hospital, when I was in

871
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,080
the ambulance, what they ended up doing was picking me up in the ambulance at our station

872
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:03,240
once it was secured and driving me to a local school where they life flighted me from there

873
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:04,640
to the local hospital.

874
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:09,780
And as I was in the ambulance, I started my left whole left side started coming back.

875
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:14,400
So then I knew I wasn't paralyzed at that point, but nothing was coming back on my right

876
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:15,400
side.

877
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:16,920
So I didn't really know what was going on.

878
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,340
I didn't really know the severity of my wounds.

879
00:53:19,340 --> 00:53:22,760
You see on TV when you get shot in the legs or anything like that, you're like, oh, that

880
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,820
person lives, you know, that's I'll be fine.

881
00:53:25,820 --> 00:53:27,560
You know, and that's kind of what was going through my head.

882
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:32,600
But I didn't know that it went through my whole pelvic region, which carries the one

883
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,980
of the most heavily carried blood supply regions of the body.

884
00:53:36,980 --> 00:53:39,840
You know, so I was I was losing a lot of blood at the time.

885
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:44,040
So I didn't I didn't realize that until after the fact.

886
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,920
I've had numerous peace officers now that that was shot or, you know, it was a car accident,

887
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,520
something like that.

888
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:57,480
And if you're not killed, then the way they were the injuries that knife non life threatening

889
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,480
injuries, you know, but you lost your leg, you know, whatever it was.

890
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,960
Kevin Holtry was in a wheelchair now and it really downplays the severity.

891
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,960
You know, it might have been not life threatening for some of these people, but it was absolutely

892
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,840
life changing for them.

893
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:18,240
So as you start going through these surgeries, what became your new reality?

894
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:21,320
You know, you had this immense physicality.

895
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,640
You were a professional in uniform.

896
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:24,640
You were part of a team.

897
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:25,640
You had a purpose.

898
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,640
You know, where did you find yourself physically and mentally as the months progressed after

899
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,240
that?

900
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:35,440
So like I said, you spoke to Earl and I kind of had the same mindset as Earl when I was

901
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:36,440
in the hospitals.

902
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,800
You know, I felt like I was part of that team, you know, team of the troopers and we're doing

903
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:41,800
our own thing.

904
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,800
We're doing our job, you know.

905
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,880
And you know, how could somebody do this to us?

906
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,320
We weren't harming them in any which way.

907
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:53,240
But as I was in the hospital longer and longer, I became more depressed thinking like, oh,

908
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:54,760
I don't have a purpose anymore.

909
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:55,760
I can't feel my right leg.

910
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,400
So I'm not going to be running anymore.

911
00:54:58,400 --> 00:54:59,560
My running career is done.

912
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,400
And that's one of the things really that kind of was a stress reliever for me.

913
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:10,440
So I'm thinking, how am I going to be relieving my stress and all this now that I can't run

914
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:11,440
and part of this team?

915
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,820
I don't know if I'm ever going to be back to work.

916
00:55:12,820 --> 00:55:17,680
So I don't know if part of being part of a team is over, you know, at this point.

917
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:24,600
And, you know, it kind of really put me down, you know, deep into the dump, you know.

918
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,360
So what about the physical journey?

919
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:33,560
I know initially you ended up, you know, they saved your leg, but walk me through that because

920
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:34,840
I've had a few people now.

921
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:40,600
Seb Lavoie was a Canadian police officer, like a special operations guy, went through

922
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,840
his whole career with no real issues.

923
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,360
He was a jujitsu guy.

924
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,440
He's a CrossFit guy.

925
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,440
And then his story, he just got calf implants, just purely aesthetic.

926
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:51,440
He retired.

927
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,720
He's like, I've always had these one sided calves.

928
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:54,720
I'm just going to get it done.

929
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:57,800
And it was just one in a million where it didn't take.

930
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,000
And he ended up having compartment syndrome.

931
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:06,440
And ultimately he chose to cut his leg off because the nerves were all damaged.

932
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,320
And it was amazing for him.

933
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,680
And I've had another stunt woman, Olivia Jackson, who had this horrific accident on set and

934
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:18,280
her nerves are all severed and she chose to cut her arm off because it was like a weight

935
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:19,740
just hanging there.

936
00:56:19,740 --> 00:56:26,760
So walk me through the initial kind of hope of, you know, getting your leg back to full

937
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,360
health and then let's go to the decision to amputate.

938
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:31,480
Yeah.

939
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:36,960
So like I said, I couldn't feel that right leg for the longest time.

940
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,720
My doctors, I went to a lot of different, one of the best orthopedic hospitals in the

941
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:43,960
country in New York City.

942
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:51,440
And one of my surgeons, he was a physiatrist who studied, you know, nerve takes and nerve

943
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:52,440
growth and all that.

944
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,520
And he said, your nerves are pretty much shot on that side.

945
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,920
They're not coming back on that right side.

946
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:04,240
And he actually recommended an amputation possibly in the future.

947
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:11,120
And he said the same thing as you just said, you just told me that he had a patient who

948
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:18,080
is a female who, I guess, fell off the back of a boat and cut her leg up pretty good on

949
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:23,440
part of the motor, the blades on the motor and, you know, cut some nerves and everything

950
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:24,440
like that.

951
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,840
And she ended up having her leg amputated and she was she's doing stuff like now, I

952
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,320
guess, and she had her leg amputated that she wasn't even able to do before, like better

953
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,400
stuff, you know.

954
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:40,440
And so my doctor, you know, talked, spoke to this individual, this is a physiatrist and

955
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,960
another surgeon and all three of them came together.

956
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,700
This was December of 2018.

957
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:53,200
So it was about four years after my initial injury and said, you know, you're just you're

958
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,560
not you're not moving forward.

959
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,640
You're going to be getting blood clots.

960
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:58,640
You're going to be doing this.

961
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,880
So sooner or later, you're going to have to have your leg amputated.

962
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,640
It's your choice when you want to do it.

963
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,160
So I, you know, I sat down with my wife and we talked about it.

964
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:15,480
And one of one of the people who really made made me make the decision I did at the time

965
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:20,600
was Earl, who said, you know, I still remember him saying whatever improves the quality of

966
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,760
your lifestyle, do go with it, you know.

967
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,400
And that's what these doctors are saying.

968
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,320
They said, you're not going to be any worse than you are now.

969
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:29,680
If anything, you're going to improve.

970
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,000
But we're not guaranteeing you that you're going to improve.

971
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,480
But, you know, that's up to you.

972
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,840
And so I decided to go with him, have it amputated below my knee.

973
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:44,720
And you know, I'll tell you, James, it was, you know, I was wearing these leg braces before

974
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,600
the leg amputated and just sticking them in different shoes.

975
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,480
You had to wear different types of sneakers.

976
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,520
And I was just dragging my leg around and day after day.

977
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,600
And it was so depressing to me, you know.

978
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,600
And once I had the leg amputated, it was like such a relief mentally.

979
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,200
It was like a thousand pounds off my shoulders.

980
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:06,560
And I would actually wake up mornings after that, months, even a year after and be like,

981
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,240
did I really have my leg amputated because it feels good?

982
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,800
Like there's no pain, there's nothing.

983
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,200
And it was just such a good feeling.

984
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,040
And to this day, I have no regrets making that choice.

985
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,980
Even my physical therapists here that dealt with me before the amputation and still deal

986
00:59:20,980 --> 00:59:25,200
with me now, they're like so impressed by what I'm able to do now compared to what I

987
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,360
was able to do before.

988
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,080
So it's definitely a great choice on my part to do it.

989
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,800
I would definitely do it again.

990
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,480
Did you have to get below the knee or above the knee?

991
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,320
So I'm below the knee on my right leg.

992
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,680
So the world of prosthetics, you talked about, you know, better after the amputation, what

993
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:49,080
were you able to do with the prosthesis that you weren't able to do with the drop foot

994
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,780
anatomical leg that you were born with?

995
00:59:52,780 --> 00:59:58,700
So due to the injury, like I said, I was running and everything before all this injury and

996
00:59:58,700 --> 00:59:59,700
before I was shot.

997
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:04,840
So after that, after I was injured, I wasn't able to run at all.

998
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:09,160
I was basically I had a brace on my leg that was holding my foot up because my foot would

999
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,600
just flop back and forth because of the nerve damage.

1000
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,120
I had what they call drop foot.

1001
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:19,640
And so now I'm actually jogging and running and I was never able to do that before.

1002
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,160
And that was one of the main things that the doctors thought I would be able to do if I

1003
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:24,160
had it amputated.

1004
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:28,400
Besides that, I'm doing CrossFit and everything like that.

1005
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:29,400
Back to working out.

1006
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,320
I haven't ran a marathon yet, but I did a 5K and stuff like that.

1007
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,680
So we're slowly working on it, but we're getting back to where hopefully where I was before

1008
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:39,680
him.

1009
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:48,440
You know, it's definitely going in a positive, positive way than where I was before him.

1010
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:49,760
And what about the mental journey?

1011
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,160
You said you found yourself in a dark place.

1012
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:54,520
Where was the lowest place that you found?

1013
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:59,560
And then what were some of the tools you used to start climbing out of that hole?

1014
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:06,720
So I was in a low place for quite some time early on, first couple of months.

1015
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:13,440
And then I started going to a rehab facility here in our area after I left New York City.

1016
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:22,320
And that's when I met actually Earl Granville and the CEO and vice president of this allied

1017
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:28,160
services, which is the rehab place said, you know, do you want to run this 2015 marathon?

1018
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,680
And of course, you know, being the person I am, I'm like, yeah, of course I do.

1019
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:32,680
I'll run it.

1020
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:33,680
No problem.

1021
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,560
Because I guess they have a team that runs it every year and raises money for their organization.

1022
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:38,920
And I said, yeah, sure.

1023
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:39,920
No problem.

1024
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,700
Well, as it's getting closer, I'm still dragging my leg around.

1025
01:01:42,700 --> 01:01:45,600
At this point, I didn't have my leg amputated, so I'm still wearing leg braces.

1026
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:48,920
I still have drop foot and I'm dragging my leg around.

1027
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,880
And you know, I said to this friend who's now a friend of mine who, like I said, he's

1028
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:54,880
the vice president up there.

1029
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,760
And I said, you know, Jim, I can't run this.

1030
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:59,120
And he said, I have an idea.

1031
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,880
He said, we know this veteran who does these races in a wheelchair, a hand cycle.

1032
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,080
It's like a wheelchair cycle.

1033
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:07,080
And here's his number.

1034
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:08,680
Why don't you give him a call up?

1035
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:09,680
And his names are Earl Granville.

1036
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,640
And I said, oh, I know the name.

1037
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,760
I know the guy I've seen him doing CrossFit before.

1038
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,720
This is like way before my injury.

1039
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:20,440
And I always told myself this is a weird story that, you know, he lost his leg, I believe

1040
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:25,520
it was 08 and maybe 2011, 12.

1041
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,000
I went to a CrossFit gym and I saw him just like swinging all over the place doing this

1042
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:30,000
crazy stuff.

1043
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,680
And I'm like, Jesus, if I ever lost my leg, I want to be like this guy.

1044
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,840
This guy is motivating, you know, and here I am.

1045
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,640
But I lost my leg.

1046
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:44,040
And going back, kind of like what I said in the beginning, how, you know, my father said,

1047
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,840
oh, don't go into the military because it's dangerous and people are dying and they're

1048
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:49,480
losing limbs and everything like that.

1049
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:53,720
And, you know, when I was in the hospital, I had to remind them I lost my limb and look

1050
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,360
where I'm at now.

1051
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:57,760
I was going to ask you that earlier.

1052
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,360
Like, well, that what do you think now?

1053
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:00,360
Yeah.

1054
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,360
What do you think now?

1055
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:02,360
You know, should have been a teacher.

1056
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:03,360
Yeah.

1057
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,280
I actually had these professors in college that they thought I was crazy for going to

1058
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:08,280
the state police.

1059
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:13,160
They said, no, go into economics and, you know, pursue a PhD and do this.

1060
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,800
And I said, I said, no, this is what I want to do.

1061
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:16,800
And they said, it's dangerous.

1062
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:21,600
And I said, well, you taught a lot of people who died in 9-11 in the World Trade Center.

1063
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:22,600
That's where they worked.

1064
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:23,600
And they said, good point.

1065
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,920
Well, they ended up coming to the hospital after I was shot and said, we told you so.

1066
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,040
So they kind of shut that back into my face.

1067
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,360
Here's a chart to show why you're an idiot.

1068
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:33,360
We made it.

1069
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:34,360
Yeah, exactly.

1070
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,000
We told you not to do that.

1071
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,000
Not to sidetrack.

1072
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,660
But yeah, when I was at this rehab, so they told me about Earl and I knew Earl and I called

1073
01:03:43,660 --> 01:03:47,880
them up and I said, could I borrow one of your hand cyclists to do this New York City

1074
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:48,880
marathon?

1075
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,280
And he said, you know, I have a better idea.

1076
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:51,280
I have two hand cycles.

1077
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,040
Why don't I do it with you?

1078
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:54,040
We could do it together.

1079
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,000
And that's what we ended up doing.

1080
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:57,460
We finished it together.

1081
01:03:57,460 --> 01:04:04,480
And that's when I first really started mentally coming out of that funk, that really down

1082
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,040
word because I didn't think I was doing anything with my life.

1083
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:08,040
I didn't.

1084
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,040
I just felt really down about it.

1085
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:17,640
And when I did the marathon with him, I, you know, I felt like a part of a team and a purpose

1086
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,240
and everything like that.

1087
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:26,620
And it really, it really helped me and move me forward mentally and physically, too.

1088
01:04:26,620 --> 01:04:27,680
So where did it go from there?

1089
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,280
You do the marathon with Earl.

1090
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:35,560
Like what else is helping you on that upswing mentally?

1091
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:41,360
So yeah, so when I was doing that marathon with Earl, I felt like I was, you know, part

1092
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:42,360
of a team again.

1093
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,240
I had more of a purpose in life.

1094
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:45,680
I finished a marathon.

1095
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,560
That was my goal because that's what I was training to do before I was shot.

1096
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:55,800
And then as I got to become even better friends with Earl, he got me involved in a group called

1097
01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:00,240
Operation Doreen Warriors, who again, I'm sure he told you about them.

1098
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:05,680
They're a nonprofit group for wounded veterans and wounded first responders.

1099
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,760
And, you know, he got me involved in that group.

1100
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:13,720
And I met more and more people who have, you know, either, you know, different appendages

1101
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,640
that are missing or, you know, just basically mental trauma that they're suffering from,

1102
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,200
from either the war or being shot as a police officer.

1103
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:25,000
And, you know, I became very close and tight with those people and I still remain tight

1104
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,700
with those people.

1105
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:29,400
So if it wasn't for Earl, I wouldn't have gotten involved in these groups.

1106
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,360
And they've done wonders for me.

1107
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:35,000
And like next week, I'm going out to visit a friend of mine who's in Oklahoma.

1108
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:36,560
He lives in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

1109
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,840
And Earl does a ruck there every year in March.

1110
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:42,160
And that's how I got to know this guy.

1111
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,000
And he's not a veteran that lives out there.

1112
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:49,320
He's just, he was a guy that said, hey, I knew the guy that Earl does the ruck for that

1113
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,240
passed away, like come stay at my house for the weekend and you guys do this ruck.

1114
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,480
And I got to know him and connected to him.

1115
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,040
And now he and I are like best friends.

1116
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,480
So I'm just going out there to hang out with them for a week.

1117
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:05,080
Like, it's just crazy how the connections, you know, it's such a negative event that

1118
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:09,880
happened, but a lot of positive, a lot of good came out of it.

1119
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:15,520
So I first was introduced to Operation During Warrior through one of my firefighter friends,

1120
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:21,040
Mandy, and I ended up interviewing Drew Stokes, who was one of their first honorees from the

1121
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,880
law enforcement side, Task Force Sentinel.

1122
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:30,120
And I, he again, just like you was, was ambushed by some rich white kid in a Publix parking

1123
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:31,520
lot of all places.

1124
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:35,880
Whilst Drew was on his way to get a family that we just evacuated, they just evacuated

1125
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,320
from, I think it was Puerto Rico, from one of the storms.

1126
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,640
And he was just going to buy this family food and diapers and clothes.

1127
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:45,440
So he was doing something good when he was shot.

1128
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:50,720
But I watched this man, because obviously I interviewed him prior to when he went through

1129
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:56,600
the Spartan race that we did, and I watched the metamorphosis from the start line to the

1130
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:57,840
finish line.

1131
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,480
And he realized that he could do so much more.

1132
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,200
And obviously, you know, the mass athletes and some of us were helping him through, you

1133
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:10,240
know, some of these, these obstacles, of course, but his sense of self-esteem, his sense of

1134
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:15,440
ability, you know, I mean, I watched it within a few short hours.

1135
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:17,120
What did you experience with that group?

1136
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,840
And what did you see with some of the other honorees that you ended up working with?

1137
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:26,640
Yeah, kind of like I already I met, um, um, who Stokes and, uh, you know, I know Mandy

1138
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:27,640
and everything like that.

1139
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,120
And I met all great people, you know what I mean?

1140
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:36,040
And, um, we had a lot of the same injuries that I had a lot of the same injuries that

1141
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:37,480
he drew had, you know what I mean?

1142
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:40,080
That, that, uh, so we were able to kind of relate.

1143
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:41,080
It's kind of like the camaraderie.

1144
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:45,640
So you just asked, like, how did, uh, you know, how do we kind of come together and

1145
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:47,800
how does each other help each other out?

1146
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,800
Um, you know, it's not just the races and the competitions.

1147
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,360
Like you said, you're helping each other lift over, you know, going over walls and stuff

1148
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:55,360
like that.

1149
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:59,080
If they have, you know, disabilities that they can't, can't make it or do that.

1150
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:00,880
And you're helping them hand in hand with that.

1151
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:06,120
But it's even more so like I found out, like, it's just a communication with these other

1152
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:11,120
guys and girls that have been through, you know, this type of traumatic incident, uh,

1153
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:12,920
that you can just relate to.

1154
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,960
Um, for me specifically, like I, you know, I talked to Earl, but besides Earl, there's

1155
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:21,680
a lot of other guys that are, you know, missing their legs from, from Afghanistan, Iraq that

1156
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:22,680
are part of this group.

1157
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,000
And I'll be like, Hey, how do you like that prosthetic or how do you like that prosthetic?

1158
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,920
And they'll be like, Oh, I swear by this one, why don't you try this one?

1159
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:31,680
And I'll tell my prosthetic guy, you know, why don't we try this leg?

1160
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,520
And you know, I found a leg that actually one of the guys wears all the time that, that

1161
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,800
works for me, that really works for me well.

1162
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,080
So it's just, you know, it's the whole combination of everything.

1163
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,920
It's not just doing the endurance competitions and the races it is.

1164
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,680
And it's showing that, you know, you have that brother and sisterhood and that you're

1165
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:53,320
helping each other out, but it's really the camaraderie and, um, you know, that communication

1166
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:58,200
for that similarities of whatever happened and whatever traumatic incident you might

1167
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:02,280
have encountered and coming together and, you know, that friendship and that bond, you

1168
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,100
know.

1169
01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:08,600
So when, when you were shot, you had a lot of things stolen from you, obviously part

1170
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:12,320
of your physicality, but then that tribe, that purpose that we talked about, you know,

1171
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:17,640
you found it somewhat in OEW and some of these organizations, where are you today as far

1172
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:18,640
as purpose?

1173
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,480
What's the next chapter for you?

1174
01:09:20,480 --> 01:09:25,040
So Earl and I do a lot of public speaking together, um, trying to make that awareness

1175
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:29,160
that, you know, I'm sure Earl told you, and I'm not going to go into it too much, but

1176
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:33,840
you know, when you have that, that weight on your shoulder, that really bad day in life,

1177
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,880
you know, and it gets really heavy, you know, pass it on and share it with somebody, go

1178
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:37,880
to a counselor.

1179
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:42,920
And it took me a while to go to counseling just because I figured nobody would understand

1180
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:47,040
what I went through this, you know, 120 pound female sitting in front of me who's been a

1181
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,440
counselor her whole life will not understand what I've been through, you know, and I was

1182
01:09:50,440 --> 01:09:51,440
totally wrong.

1183
01:09:51,440 --> 01:09:53,320
It was just somebody to talk to.

1184
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:59,800
And that's what I kind of, you know, promote to people and give them that awareness that

1185
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:04,280
it doesn't matter who you're talking to, as long as you share that with somebody.

1186
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:11,920
But we see it all too much between law enforcement, fire, EMS, of course, the military, everyone,

1187
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:16,920
you know, there's a lot of suicides and it's unfortunate and it's all over the place.

1188
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,880
And there's, there's no need for it.

1189
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,160
You know, there's always that help out there.

1190
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,720
And that's what people need to do is just, you know, suck it up, grab their balls and

1191
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,200
go out and talk to somebody about it.

1192
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:33,680
You know, I think one of the things I've talked about is a lot recently, you know, I've, I've

1193
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:38,080
watched this mental health conversation unfold through my lens.

1194
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,560
Now, there's people that have been talking about this for decades that are the real pioneers

1195
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:42,560
in this space.

1196
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:47,800
But for a lot of us, I feel it was about eight, nine years ago where our profession started

1197
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,600
really talking about it.

1198
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,640
And the initial conversation was always a stigma.

1199
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:54,240
We've got to smash the stigma.

1200
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,840
You know, it's, you know, it's okay not to be okay and all these kinds of phrases.

1201
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,840
But I feel like that's kind of ground to a halt because that doesn't take the individual

1202
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,080
from crisis to healing.

1203
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:06,240
It's just, it's okay to be in pain.

1204
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:07,240
All right.

1205
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:08,240
I'm still in pain.

1206
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:09,240
You said it was okay.

1207
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:10,240
I'm still in pain.

1208
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:14,880
But what I think was missing is that hope element of post-traumatic growth.

1209
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:18,800
Doesn't mean that you're not going to, you know, you're just going to forget lying there

1210
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:25,040
in the foyer next to your fallen brother or, you know, the, the terror of being shot, but

1211
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:29,920
that resilience that is forged from, as you said, you know, whether it's, you know, running

1212
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,560
a Spartan with Earl, whether it's sitting in an office with a counselor who understands

1213
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,400
you and really progressing forward.

1214
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:40,960
I can't help but feel like true resilience sits on the other side, which is actually

1215
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:46,820
exciting, which is a better version of you, you know, is waiting when you do the work.

1216
01:11:46,820 --> 01:11:50,160
What is your perception of the kind of that philosophy?

1217
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:51,160
So yeah.

1218
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,280
And going back and I kind of left it out too.

1219
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,680
You know, you, I think you asked like, how did, you know, Operation During Warriors and

1220
01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,080
other groups help me?

1221
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,760
And again, I think, yeah, you could go to counseling, like you said, and you could have

1222
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:06,560
these people say, you know, you know, you need to get better and this and that.

1223
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:11,840
But I think what helps more is communicating and talking and becoming friends with, you

1224
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:16,560
know, like people like yourself who have seen traumatic incidents or have been through traumatic

1225
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:21,080
incidents and these guys in Operation During Warriors who have been through it.

1226
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,760
And it's not like you're sitting there in a counseling session, but it's just that you're

1227
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:30,300
talking as a friend and I think that even helps out more than, you know, just going

1228
01:12:30,300 --> 01:12:31,300
to a counselor.

1229
01:12:31,300 --> 01:12:35,280
I'm just saying, but like that's how these groups have helped me out personally.

1230
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,680
And that's how I continue to push forward and look at the positive.

1231
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:43,560
My whole thing was, you know, I'm not going to let some ship bird ruin my life and I'm

1232
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,780
going to wake up every day being like life sucks.

1233
01:12:46,780 --> 01:12:50,240
You know, my whole philosophy is, you know, life is good.

1234
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:51,240
I'm alive.

1235
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:52,240
I'm going to make the best of it.

1236
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:56,920
You know, I have good people in my life, all the negative people are gone, good people

1237
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,500
in my life, and I'm going to keep moving forward and winning at life.

1238
01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:03,180
That's my whole philosophy.

1239
01:13:03,180 --> 01:13:08,380
When you run a Spartan with our own, we did the very first Spartan opened up during COVID,

1240
01:13:08,380 --> 01:13:09,880
you know, it was in Florida.

1241
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,400
I ran that ran slash walk that with him.

1242
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:17,680
I climbed one World Trade with Rob Jones, who ended up taking his prosthetics off.

1243
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,080
He's like, this is this is not going to work.

1244
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:23,640
And he just put little pads on his knees and bear crawled 110 stories.

1245
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,240
I'm there with my legs are getting tired.

1246
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:27,400
I'm not saying a fucking word.

1247
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:28,400
I'm fine, Rob.

1248
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:29,400
I'm absolutely fine.

1249
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,400
I'm not complaining.

1250
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,880
But you know, that in itself is growth like these people that, you know, a lot of us would

1251
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:38,360
think you curl up and die.

1252
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:42,360
You know, they found this amazing new version of themselves on the other side.

1253
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,120
It's very, very inspiring.

1254
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:49,360
So you've got these people that are, you know, physically and or mentally traumatized.

1255
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:53,680
But then they, you know, surrounding yourself with those people, I think it reminds you

1256
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:54,680
of that hope.

1257
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,000
It reminds you is not comparing trauma because it's very dangerous.

1258
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,720
But if person, you know, a went through all this and now is thriving on the other end,

1259
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,600
of course, they're still cognizant that they're missing a leg or two or whatever it is.

1260
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,820
But Mark Omrott is a perfect example from the UK.

1261
01:14:09,820 --> 01:14:13,600
You know, it's such a great environment to be because if you're surrounded by people

1262
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:18,240
that just fucking made it happen, like you said about grabbing your balls, that's really

1263
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:19,240
it.

1264
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:20,880
It's having the courage to say I can do that, too.

1265
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,360
And those people will help you.

1266
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,600
They'll tell you how they got there.

1267
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,180
And I'll tell you about their peaks and their valleys.

1268
01:14:26,180 --> 01:14:29,720
But if you surround yourself in an environment where it's like, well, we'll get you a dog,

1269
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,160
you know, and then you can tell a sad story about you.

1270
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:34,080
You know, you live with PTSD every day.

1271
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:35,800
I think that's a really shitty message.

1272
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,160
I think you need to surround yourselves by the Earls and the Marks and all these incredible

1273
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:45,040
people that are going to push you so much further than you thought was possible.

1274
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,160
And you're going to look back and go, wow, I don't know, just dealing.

1275
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,760
I'm not just living with my PTSD, my depression or whatever.

1276
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,000
I'm so much better than I was before.

1277
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,760
Yeah, no, I agree.

1278
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:57,760
Absolutely.

1279
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:02,320
And that's you know, you could take a couple of different tracks and different paths.

1280
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:07,200
And like you said, you could you could, you know, drink your life or get on prescription

1281
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:12,280
meds and go that path or, you know, wake up every day and just mope around and be like

1282
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:13,720
and relive it over and over.

1283
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:17,600
And you, you know, go out to a restaurant and if somebody asks you what happened to

1284
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:23,040
your leg and, you know, you start telling them, you know, the savvy story and make them

1285
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:24,040
feel bad for you.

1286
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,800
It's like you could be that person or I was a veteran or talks about all the time you

1287
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:29,440
hear these guys or I was a veteran.

1288
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:30,440
I was OK.

1289
01:15:30,440 --> 01:15:31,440
The war is over.

1290
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:32,440
You know what I mean?

1291
01:15:32,440 --> 01:15:34,600
Not that nothing against you being a veteran.

1292
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,280
And I people say, oh, I used to be a retired cop and I hate when people say that.

1293
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:40,640
It's like, all right, buddy, like that's nice.

1294
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:41,640
Congratulations.

1295
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:43,120
But, you know, I don't bring that up.

1296
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:44,120
You know what I mean?

1297
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,720
When if people ask me out in the store, they'll be like, how did you lose your leg?

1298
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:47,720
Were you a veteran?

1299
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:48,720
I'll be like, no, I was a police officer.

1300
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:50,200
I got shot and I just walk away.

1301
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:51,800
And I don't tell my story.

1302
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:53,640
And it's not because I don't want to.

1303
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,840
It's just, you know, I don't want I don't want people to be like, oh, I feel so bad

1304
01:15:57,840 --> 01:15:59,200
for you and this and that.

1305
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:04,040
And one of the most discouraging things somebody asked me the other night, I did a speech for

1306
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:08,200
our rehab center and one of the doctors came up, he was a young guy, and he said, what's

1307
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:13,880
one of the most discouraging things as an amputee or, you know, being somewhat I don't

1308
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:18,920
even like to say disabled, but being, you know, you know, injured or whatever.

1309
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,560
You know, one of the things is when people are like, oh, let me bend over and get that

1310
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,080
for you or let me lift that for you.

1311
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:27,720
It's like, let them deal with what they want to do.

1312
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:29,680
If they need help, they'll ask for help.

1313
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:33,240
You know, that's how I feel like that's where I get offended is when people are like, oh,

1314
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:34,240
let me help you with this.

1315
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:35,240
Don't move.

1316
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:36,240
Sit here.

1317
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:37,240
Are you sore?

1318
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:38,240
Sit down.

1319
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:39,240
No, I'll do what I want to do.

1320
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:40,240
You know what I mean?

1321
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:41,240
Kind of thing.

1322
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:43,240
But but yeah, you could take these paths and or you could take the path, like you said,

1323
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,800
Earl and a lot of your Ukraine friend around Ukraine.

1324
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:54,440
You're going to break the bread.

1325
01:16:54,440 --> 01:16:57,160
But no, a lot of like guys that, you know, you know what I mean?

1326
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:58,640
Like and push yourself.

1327
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:02,360
And there's a lot of other guys in the US that I follow that, you know, they got wounded.

1328
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:06,800
But yeah, like there's one guy who went back into the special forces and he's like a dive

1329
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:08,440
instructor now and he has one leg.

1330
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:11,360
He's above the knee amputee and he's doing crazy stuff.

1331
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:13,080
And it's like, OK, what's your excuse?

1332
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:14,080
You know what I mean?

1333
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:16,200
And and that's that's my whole point.

1334
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,040
You know, there's no excuses.

1335
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:20,040
Keep moving forward.

1336
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:24,400
And like I said before, I'm not going to let some ship bird, you know, take away my life

1337
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:27,280
and take away my happiness and stuff like that.

1338
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:28,280
You know?

1339
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:32,840
Well, speaking of the aforementioned ship bird, we didn't talk about how he was caught

1340
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:35,080
and what he's sitting waiting for now.

1341
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:36,440
So let's round off that story.

1342
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:42,720
You have all I think it was a thousand strong law enforcement team looking for him.

1343
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:47,320
Talk to me about how they caught him and then what was the verdict of the trial?

1344
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:49,720
So it took 48 days.

1345
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:54,760
Our state police lieutenant colonel George Bivens led the whole thing and they would

1346
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:59,080
set up different grid patterns and set different units and different grid patterns and and

1347
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:00,520
start searching for him that way.

1348
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:05,040
And it took 48 days and just happened to be the grid pattern that he was in.

1349
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:11,920
It was abandoned plane airplane hangar was the U.S. Marshall Group, Special Forces Group.

1350
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:14,000
And they were just in that area.

1351
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,960
And he came walking out of the woods and they ended up, you know, handcuffing them.

1352
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:21,280
They use Brian Dixon's handcuffs to transport them.

1353
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:25,840
And he was transported up to our station where they interviewed and interrogated them and

1354
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:29,480
going back to where I said, if I crawled straight through those doors, he actually admitted

1355
01:18:29,480 --> 01:18:33,200
that that's what he was waiting for me to do, to take another shot at me and kill me.

1356
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:37,200
So like I said, I don't know what made me go the other way, but I did.

1357
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:38,200
And I'm here.

1358
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:46,280
But we had a trial in 2017 and the jury found him accountable on all counts.

1359
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:51,240
And he was sentenced to the death penalty where he's sitting on death row now in Pennsylvania.

1360
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:57,120
And will probably never happen until we get a governor that acknowledges the death penalty.

1361
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:02,600
When I looked him up on Wikipedia, there was pictures and he's a little scuffed up.

1362
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:06,160
His face is obviously, you know, been rearranged a little bit.

1363
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:10,960
And there was these comments that I'm assuming some people went, well, what happened to him?

1364
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,200
And I just kind of laughed to myself.

1365
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:18,180
This guy killed one police officer, almost killed another one.

1366
01:19:18,180 --> 01:19:23,400
You don't think that the people that catch him are not going to be super softly, gently

1367
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,640
when they restrain him and cuff him.

1368
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,720
And I've been on on scenes as a firefighter where someone's been mouthing off, maybe spat

1369
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:31,400
at one of us, I forget now.

1370
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,480
And he's walked around into an alley and he comes out with more things that we've got

1371
01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:35,480
to address.

1372
01:19:35,480 --> 01:19:39,040
That's what fucking happens, you know, play stupid games.

1373
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:42,540
So I just thought that was such a crazy, it was only about three lines, but it was like

1374
01:19:42,540 --> 01:19:45,600
almost justifying someone said, well, we had to face him down.

1375
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:48,800
They're not allowed to they're not allowed to look at us when we're arresting them.

1376
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,640
Like, no, you fucking throw him down to the ground because he murdered two of your brothers.

1377
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:53,640
That's what happened.

1378
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:54,640
No explanation needed.

1379
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:55,640
Yeah.

1380
01:19:55,640 --> 01:20:00,320
I mean, he's lucky to be alive, you know, and viewpoint, you know, I don't know what

1381
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:01,320
they're crying about.

1382
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:02,320
But yeah, exactly.

1383
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:03,320
Yeah.

1384
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:08,200
The same thing happened with I think it was it was one of our local police officers and

1385
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,920
I think the perpetrator was almost blind in one eye or lost his eye.

1386
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:14,400
And it's like, well, that's the other person's dead.

1387
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:16,440
He doesn't even get to go home to his family because of you.

1388
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:18,960
If you hadn't done that in the first place, your eye would still be fine.

1389
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:19,960
Yeah.

1390
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:20,960
Yeah, exactly.

1391
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:21,960
Anyway.

1392
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:22,960
All right.

1393
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:27,680
Well, I want to transition to some closing questions before I let you go.

1394
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:32,840
The first one I love to ask, is there a book or other books that you love to recommend

1395
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:38,040
it can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated?

1396
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:39,560
So a friend of mine wrote a book.

1397
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:41,880
He was an injured Pennsylvania state trooper.

1398
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,960
He got run over on the side of the road while working.

1399
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,740
And this is one of them.

1400
01:20:48,740 --> 01:20:52,680
It's called The Forged in Scars and Stripes.

1401
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:53,680
And he wrote this one.

1402
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,480
His name is Bob Bemis.

1403
01:20:57,480 --> 01:21:05,560
And it tells his story of how he was hit and, you know, he got pretty fucked up physically

1404
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:11,720
and his mental, you know, his mental process through the whole recovery and everything

1405
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:12,720
like that.

1406
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,480
Kind of like similar to mine.

1407
01:21:15,480 --> 01:21:17,900
But it's a great book, great story.

1408
01:21:17,900 --> 01:21:20,840
He's a great guy and he's retired now from our job.

1409
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:27,160
But it just, like I said, tells his pathway through, you know, being physically injured.

1410
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:29,000
Another one is this.

1411
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:32,280
It's called In His Grip by Bob Gerken.

1412
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,360
And he's a retired trooper, too.

1413
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,400
And I just spoke to him the other day, actually.

1414
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:47,040
He's currently writing another book on the most prominent Pennsylvania state police incidents

1415
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:48,500
in history.

1416
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:53,160
So he's kind of like a PSP historian, but he is a retired trooper.

1417
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:56,720
And if you ever met the guy, he reminds you of Clint Eastwood.

1418
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:58,040
He's like that kind of guy.

1419
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:03,640
He sits on his front porch and, you know, choose cope and hang in.

1420
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:06,640
And that's him, you know.

1421
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:08,440
But he's currently writing another book now.

1422
01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:13,160
But he's very religious, which I respect.

1423
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:21,280
And, you know, he prays every day that he made it out of being a trooper and being alive

1424
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:24,440
and moving forward in a retirement and everything like that.

1425
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:26,200
So that's another really good book.

1426
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:27,480
Brilliant.

1427
01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:28,480
Thank you.

1428
01:22:28,480 --> 01:22:30,840
What about films and documentaries?

1429
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:35,600
I mean, I like a lot of, like I said, World War Two movies, stuff like that.

1430
01:22:35,600 --> 01:22:40,360
I just saw not too long ago the movie 1917, which I think you would appreciate.

1431
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:43,360
Yeah, that's not Dunkirk, was it?

1432
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:45,520
It was the one shot scene, wasn't it?

1433
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,440
The whole film is one sequence, supposed to be one sequence.

1434
01:22:48,440 --> 01:22:49,440
Yes.

1435
01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:50,440
Correct.

1436
01:22:50,440 --> 01:22:51,440
Great film.

1437
01:22:51,440 --> 01:22:52,440
Yeah.

1438
01:22:52,440 --> 01:22:53,440
All Quiet on the Eastern Front.

1439
01:22:53,440 --> 01:22:55,840
I don't know if you saw that one.

1440
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:56,840
I know of it.

1441
01:22:56,840 --> 01:22:57,840
I haven't actually seen it.

1442
01:22:57,840 --> 01:22:59,200
That one you would like.

1443
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:02,840
That actually has to do with the United Kingdom, I think.

1444
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:09,280
I think it was two soldiers, two young soldiers from the United Kingdom that were, you know,

1445
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:12,240
down in trenches and everything like that fighting.

1446
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:13,920
It was a really good movie.

1447
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:16,960
But you know, another one is Lone Survivor.

1448
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,720
And one of them, like I like Lone Survivor just because it kind of shows that, you know,

1449
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:25,760
that positive push forward even after the shit hits the fan kind of.

1450
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:29,160
You never give up point of view, you know.

1451
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:35,600
I just interviewed the guy behind the movie Ranger and the subject of the film is David

1452
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:36,600
Waterhouse.

1453
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:42,160
And he and his fellow Rangers were sent to retrieve the bodies from Operation Red Wings.

1454
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:43,160
Oh, yes.

1455
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:44,160
Yes, I heard of that.

1456
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:46,160
I bet that was a good interview.

1457
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:47,640
Yeah, that was a great interview.

1458
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:49,320
It's a very tragic story, though.

1459
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:54,520
But Lone Survivor, I've said this a few times on here, where I think the film really dropped

1460
01:23:54,520 --> 01:24:00,560
the ball is that the heroism of those villagers that protected him, I think was underplayed

1461
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:01,560
in the movie.

1462
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:05,240
But he wrote it so much better in the book.

1463
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:07,200
Yeah, I have his book.

1464
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:09,880
I just haven't read it yet, but I want to I want to read it.

1465
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:15,320
I heard that it explains more about the villagers and specifically that one villager that really

1466
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:16,920
helped him through things.

1467
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:17,920
Yeah, exactly.

1468
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:18,920
All right.

1469
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:23,400
Well, then the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1470
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:28,000
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professionals of the

1471
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:29,760
world?

1472
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:30,760
I'm not sure.

1473
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,720
Did you ever interview Jeremy Sharla?

1474
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,040
I did actually not too long ago, probably four months ago now.

1475
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:41,020
OK, how about they Josh Rainey?

1476
01:24:41,020 --> 01:24:42,020
Not Josh Rainey.

1477
01:24:42,020 --> 01:24:43,920
And I heard you mention him on the other podcast.

1478
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,560
So yeah, he's a good one.

1479
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:48,740
He's a veteran and he every day is hard for him.

1480
01:24:48,740 --> 01:24:52,800
You know, this stuff that he saw, but he would be a good, good one.

1481
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:57,520
I could give you his contact info and I get off where I could text you and everything.

1482
01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:58,800
Yeah, that'd be great.

1483
01:24:58,800 --> 01:24:59,800
Thank you.

1484
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:00,800
Yeah.

1485
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:01,800
All right.

1486
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,840
Well, then the last question before we make sure people know where to find you, what do

1487
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,880
you do to decompress?

1488
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:11,960
So usually, like I said, I used to run before all this happened.

1489
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:13,380
Mostly right now it's exercise.

1490
01:25:13,380 --> 01:25:15,160
That's what I do to decompress.

1491
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:19,080
Kind of I'll do a lot of reading.

1492
01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:24,160
But mostly working out for me is my exit from stress.

1493
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,920
You know, that's what I like to do and it works for me.

1494
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,720
What kind of exercise you do as I saw that you've done CrossFit in the past.

1495
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:32,260
Is that something you still do?

1496
01:25:32,260 --> 01:25:33,600
I still do CrossFit.

1497
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:34,600
Yeah.

1498
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:37,240
Now I started jogging, like I said, so I jog around our neighborhood.

1499
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:42,480
I also do I'll take my leg off on crutches or the development, the area that we live

1500
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:43,760
in is about a mile and a half.

1501
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:47,440
So I'll go on crutches for a mile and a half without my leg.

1502
01:25:47,440 --> 01:25:51,800
I'm just crouching around and all the neighbors think I'm a whack job, but it's actually a

1503
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:52,800
really good workout.

1504
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:58,320
So I've never heard anyone say just crutching around, but I feel like that should be a phrase.

1505
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:01,320
That's what I tell my wife.

1506
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:02,560
She's like, what?

1507
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:06,640
She knows what it is, but other people don't.

1508
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:07,640
All right.

1509
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:10,020
Well, for people listening, I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to learn more

1510
01:26:10,020 --> 01:26:14,400
about you or reach out or find out how to contact you as far as speaking.

1511
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:16,880
Where are the best places online and social media?

1512
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:25,120
So my email is Douglas, D-O-U-G-L-A-S-S, the letter A and the letter T is in Tom at Yahoo.com

1513
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:26,920
is my email.

1514
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:33,320
And I only use Instagram for social media and my handle is Alex T as in Tom Douglas,

1515
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:37,120
two S's at Instagram.

1516
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:38,120
And that's basically it.

1517
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:39,600
That's all I got for you.

1518
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:40,600
Beautiful.

1519
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:44,280
Well, Alex, I want to say again, thank you to all for making this connection.

1520
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:47,360
But I want to thank you again for telling your story.

1521
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:52,800
I think the more of these stories of healing that we hear, especially in your case where

1522
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,560
it was just, I mean, completely blindsided, ambushed.

1523
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,360
I mean, there was no buildup to it at all.

1524
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:03,520
That in itself, the literally thinking about training for a marathon and all of a sudden

1525
01:27:03,520 --> 01:27:06,040
you're lying there next to your friend.

1526
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:10,240
That transition from the physical or mental journey to where you are now, I think is incredibly

1527
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:12,640
important for people listening.

1528
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:17,000
Everyone's going through their own version of hurting and the more men and women we have,

1529
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:21,240
you know, detailing their journeys of healing and growth, I think is imperative.

1530
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:24,760
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1531
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,200
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1532
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:28,200
Thank you for having me.

1533
01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:29,200
It was a pleasure.

1534
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:44,080
Thanks again, brother.