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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

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that is Transcend.

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Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

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for 14 years.

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Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

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hair loss, etc.

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Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

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seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

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incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right

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and center.

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So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

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and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

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my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

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why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

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They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

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responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

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So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

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drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

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guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

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In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

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very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

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So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

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knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

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Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

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they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

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but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

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So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

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you can't come back from.

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So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

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one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

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So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

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This episode is sponsored by a company I've literally been using for over 15 years now

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and that is 511.

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Now my introduction to their products began when I started wearing 511 uniforms years

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ago for Anaheim Fire Department.

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And since then I have acquired a host of their backpacks and luggage, which have literally

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been around the world with me.

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The backpack where I keep all my recording equipment is a 511 backpack.

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And then most of my civilian gear, the clothes that I wear are also 511.

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Now more recently they've actually branched out into the brick and mortar stores.

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So for example, Gainesville where I do jiu jitsu has a beautiful 511 store.

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So if you are a fire department, a law enforcement agency, you now have access to an entire inventory

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of clothing and equipment in these 511 stores.

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Now I've talked about the range of shoes they have and how important minimizing weight in

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our footwear is when it comes to our back health, knee health, et cetera.

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I've talked about their unique uniforms that are fitted for either male or female first

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responders.

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And then I want to highlight one new area, their CloudStrike packs.

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For those of you who enjoy hiking, this would even be an application I believe for the wildland

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community.

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They've created an ultra light pack now with a hydration system built in for rucking, running

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or other long distance events.

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Now as always, 511 is offering you the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast 15% off every

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purchase that you make.

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So if you use the code SHIELD15, that's S-H-I-E-L-D-1-5 at 511tactical.com, you will get that 15% off

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every single time.

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So if you want to hear more about 511 and their origin story, go to episode 338 of Behind

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the Shield podcast with their CEO, Francisco Morales.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show 35 year veteran of the fire service and the deputy chief of EMS and safety for

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Renton Regional Fire Authority, Chuck DeSmith.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics from the recruitment crisis that

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is affecting us internationally, interagency relationships, firefighter fitness, sleep

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deprivation, peer support, the barriers to entry when it comes to firefighter mental

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health and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 950 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Chuck DeSmith.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Charles, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you, James.

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Glad to be here.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you your morning, my afternoon?

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I am on this earth.

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I'm over in the South Seattle, Washington area.

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It's a town called Renton and it's also a town I grew up with and I work as a firefighter

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for the last 35 years.

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So I'm now as a deputy chief and still serving the town I grew up in, which was at first

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a little bit like, hey, I haven't moved very far, but after a while it becomes a bit of

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an honor to serve the folks who looked after you.

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Well, let's start at the very beginning of that timeline then.

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So you were born in Renton.

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Tell me about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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You bet.

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You bet.

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So my mother's a second generation.

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She was born and raised in Renton and my father was a milkman.

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So very blue collar.

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My mother actually did cake decorating in a grocery store and my father was a milkman

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and I have two older sisters.

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So I was the youngest boy and got to grow up in a house full of women and my dad and

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I hung on somehow.

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I literally remember, because we lived on a farm, so our drive was, I think it was half

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a mile long and the milk float would come every few days and deliver milk and the little

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battery powered floats, which is funny because we think of a battery powered vehicles are

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so advanced now and actually milkmen were using them for years before.

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So how long did your dad work in that industry and have you ever had any kind of conversations

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about the evolution of that world, especially with the nutritional choices, sometimes pushing

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people away from dairy products?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and it was the 60s and early 70s when he was most active and he actually had a whole

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key ring of people's home locks.

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And so as a milkman, he would take in the milk and they were glass bottles at that time,

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which is the best way to drink milk back then.

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And they would give him a key and he'd go into the house and put it in their refrigerator.

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Talk about trust back then and loyalty and we used to have a kind of a weird saying,

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but somebody would always joke, oh, that baby's got the milkman's eyes or something like that.

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And I'm like, well, that makes some sense if they have a key to your house.

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So he did that just until 1980 and there was a big change.

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We had the dairy farmers of Washington and really all over the US were needing some support,

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but also a lot of antibiotics were being introduced and a lot of poor farming techniques.

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So yeah, he left and milk did change quite a bit.

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There's a lot of lactose intolerant folks and he went into sales after that.

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But it was one of these jobs that was very personal to people.

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They always give them gifts on the holidays.

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I got to jump and ride in the car with them in the truck and help deliver.

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And I don't know, it's just one of those people in the neighborhood type feel.

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And again, it was all through Renton.

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Have you had any conversations with him about the philosophy of trust that existed when

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he was delivering milk and how that has diminished as time has gone on?

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Yeah, yeah.

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We had that, he passed about 10 years ago, but we've had that discussion when I was growing

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up and I'm like, he was like, yeah, go ahead and just the house should be open on that

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side door.

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Just go ahead and put, I'm like, are you sure?

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It's like, no, I've been delivering milk years and they trust me.

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And so that was just kind of how we grew up.

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It was some things you just trusted.

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It didn't even occur to you that you were in someone's house and you could potentially

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take something.

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It was just, this is the job and the service that we were providing.

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So what about sports and athletics?

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What were you playing during those school years?

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Oh, yeah, I love to run.

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And so, but that was the great thing about sports.

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They're very seasonal.

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So in the seventies, football was kind of king around here.

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So we'd play junior football every year and then that would be in the fall.

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And then winter, we'd all play basketball.

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And then summer was baseball and track.

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And so I did, we just played sports all the time.

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Sports was a big part of my life and all through high school, I ran track in college and there

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was some teamwork aspects and leadership roles that really carried well into the fire service.

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I think sports and that dynamic of going through hard times, pulling together to overcome something

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is very powerful.

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And I think it translates well into the fire service.

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See, it's interesting when people have performed at a higher level in the sport, I always ask

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this question.

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There's a difference though between the team, say of a football team and then an individual

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sport, even though you're part of a team like track.

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So when you look back now, what were the impacts of both of those when they collectively came

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together in the fire service?

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Yeah, I love the team sport.

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Track was very difficult for me.

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It was something that I did well at doing, but I didn't like it.

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It was a mind game.

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I felt like my mind was the biggest thing to overcome when you're doing the solo sports.

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But when you're doing a team sport like football, American football, you have each other to

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lean on.

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You can look your teammate in the eye and it just felt like you had support.

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But boy, when you're running a race, it's just you and it's a very different dynamic.

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I think the combination of both is very powerful.

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I fought in martial arts when I was younger and then I was on the big thing that I played

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the most was field hockey, which is viewed as a girls sport normally, but it's actually

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a pretty aggressive game when a bunch of dudes are running around carrying wood.

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But when were you growing up in?

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I was growing up in the, I guess I was born in 74, so come like through the 80s and into

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the 90s.

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But and then it was in England.

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But if I think back to the fire service, obviously the station dynamic and some of the scenes,

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the team side definitely factored in.

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But sometimes when you're in a search or somewhere where it's just that mind saying, we need

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to get out, it's too hot.

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I think I'm lost, those kinds of things.

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I feel that's where that kind of mental resilience from the individual sport really factored

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in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I definitely agree.

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It is so much mental when you're in an individual sport.

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It really is.

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So from the career perspective, then were you always dreaming of becoming a firefighter

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or was there something you were thinking about first?

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Oh, you know, that's it was nothing dramatic.

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It's a bit silly actually.

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So in Renton, a lot of my, my dad always played sports.

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He was actually very good at baseball and softball.

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And some of the firefighters on their days off would also be on planes, other baseball

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teams.

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So my dad's good friends were some of them were Renton firefighters.

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So every once in a while I would be down there and they'd let me polish a rig and be around

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the fire apparatus.

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But really that was my extent.

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I just thought I had no idea how people even got the job.

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I didn't know this.

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It's a job that you could apply for.

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I thought they just kind of a friend, let another friend know and they all work there.

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And it was after my second year in college, I had no idea what I wanted to do.

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And I was driving by a fire station in Renton actually.

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And I saw them washing an engine and they were kind of having fun, spraying each other

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a little bit.

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And I'm saying, that looks like a fun job.

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So there's nothing dramatic.

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And my, and I said, dad, do you still know some firefighters?

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Oh yeah, I've got a battalion chief down in Renton.

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Go talk to them.

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And then the more I started to think this is an actual career possibility, the more

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I started getting excited, I've always wanted to help others in some aspect.

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I've always wanted to somehow use my body for work and do something a little different.

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And so it was just that slow, you know, talking to people.

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And once I became aware, I got laser focused and started training in 1987.

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So that's when I started.

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Did you put yourself through the fire academy or did they send you?

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Oh, at the time I went through a school, it was called Bates Votek.

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And I paid for that.

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And then I was a resident volunteer, kind of a part paid.

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And once I became full time in 1990, they sent me through the academy.

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So it was then I got, I was actually being paid and sent through the official state academy.

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And with a combination EMS and fire back then.

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Oh, yes.

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Yes.

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That was exciting times in King County, Washington in the 1980s.

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The most exciting times because we had a doctor named Dr. Coppice that worked out of Seattle's

235
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Harborview.

236
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And we were some of the first firefighters on the streets using defibrillators.

237
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Blew everyone's mind in the nation.

238
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It's like, are you kidding me?

239
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You're not having a doctor use this.

240
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You're going to use it outside of the hospital.

241
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And our folks in Renton were some of the first.

242
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,860
And so to be here in King County where we led the nation and sometimes nationally with

243
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:16,660
all things CPR, it was an exciting time.

244
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So we owned EMS.

245
00:16:18,980 --> 00:16:21,780
That's why we had so many people hired in the 80s.

246
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It was a big hiring time.

247
00:16:25,220 --> 00:16:27,580
And that's why there's so many retirements now.

248
00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:30,620
We've had this big turnover and that's the time we did.

249
00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:36,860
We owned EMS work and all the labor is just like, call 911.

250
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We wanted to be busy.

251
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We wanted to be relevant.

252
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We wanted people to use us and need us.

253
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And the medical side was growing fast and we wanted to be at the forefront.

254
00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:53,260
Well that's an interesting place to kind of contrast with 2024 then.

255
00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:58,160
As we sit here, I would argue that a lot of departments are overwhelmed now by the number

256
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,120
of EMS calls that they get.

257
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,300
What have you seen over the last few decades from wanting to be relevant and wanting to

258
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:09,820
be present for true emergencies versus maybe some of the abuse that's happened decades

259
00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:10,820
later?

260
00:17:10,820 --> 00:17:11,820
Yeah.

261
00:17:11,820 --> 00:17:12,820
Yeah.

262
00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:17,840
And this is a very passionate and powerful area for me.

263
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:24,020
And I'm working at the state level and I feel like that crazy person on the hill just trying

264
00:17:24,020 --> 00:17:30,200
to get people to realize how this is moving because I was able to see this evolution.

265
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,720
So you're exactly right.

266
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,460
We told everyone to call 911 in the 80s, 100%.

267
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We teach kids in school.

268
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We'd have booklets.

269
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We'd have billboards, three easy digits.

270
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Somebody will come to your house really fast and help you.

271
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And we wanted it.

272
00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:49,460
And so we kept asking for it.

273
00:17:49,460 --> 00:17:53,580
And like you said, in 2024, we're like, whoa, stop calling.

274
00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:55,540
You're calling too much.

275
00:17:55,540 --> 00:17:56,620
We asked for this.

276
00:17:56,620 --> 00:17:57,960
We really did.

277
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,540
But in the 80s and 90s, it was true emergencies.

278
00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:08,100
If their house was on fire, a car accident and car accidents in the 80s, there's still

279
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:14,700
lap belts, no airbags, steering wheels that are bent from the chest impact.

280
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:19,400
We called them grinders back then because it was a big metal mess.

281
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,640
So people called for emergency.

282
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,900
Their arm was cut off and they wouldn't call us for being sick or needing a lift up or

283
00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:27,900
anything.

284
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:31,620
So the evolution has been dramatic.

285
00:18:31,620 --> 00:18:37,220
And the biggest area, James, that has hit me is in our purpose.

286
00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:39,860
So I got into the fire service.

287
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:45,820
You got into the fire service to help people on their worst day.

288
00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:49,540
And this is a big area that we're talking about the trauma of our job.

289
00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:51,340
We actually knew this.

290
00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:55,220
We said, we're going to go into people's worst days.

291
00:18:55,220 --> 00:19:01,220
We're going to head into a building when everyone is running out, which I love.

292
00:19:01,220 --> 00:19:04,220
Reminds me of the American bison.

293
00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:09,380
You ever heard that they head into a storm that they never seek shelter in a valley or

294
00:19:09,380 --> 00:19:10,380
trees.

295
00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:11,740
They march into a storm.

296
00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:13,060
We do that.

297
00:19:13,060 --> 00:19:14,560
And that's our purpose.

298
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,500
So a hundred percent trauma impacts us.

299
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,160
But that's where we find purpose.

300
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,880
So we did when people were calling 911 through the 80s, 90s, early 2000, we were finding

301
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,460
purpose with that.

302
00:19:27,460 --> 00:19:33,540
We could end our shift to say, I saw some tough things, but you know what?

303
00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:36,040
I made a difference in someone's life.

304
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,700
We actually save lives.

305
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:39,860
That's amazing.

306
00:19:39,860 --> 00:19:42,740
These are just throughout the day, you would have one person.

307
00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:46,940
This is a once in a lifetime event for them, but it could be the fourth or fifth of the

308
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:48,820
day for you.

309
00:19:48,820 --> 00:19:55,340
What an honor to walk into someone else's life like that and to have a positive impact.

310
00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:56,980
They won't forget you.

311
00:19:56,980 --> 00:20:01,460
It could be just your voice that as you're trying to cut them out of a car, they hear

312
00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:03,020
you.

313
00:20:03,020 --> 00:20:06,900
You'll forget about it because it was just one of the five calls that day, but they will

314
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:07,900
never forget you.

315
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:09,400
What an honor.

316
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,940
So what's happening now, and we have document and data to prove this over the last five

317
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:16,060
years.

318
00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:25,060
We've had a three to 400% increase on some of the three, what I call chronic community

319
00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:26,580
needs.

320
00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:32,340
Those needs are our unsheltered population, folks experiencing homelessness.

321
00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:34,460
So they get cold at night.

322
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:35,460
They're not eating.

323
00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:37,780
They're not caring for themselves.

324
00:20:37,780 --> 00:20:40,220
They're passed out at a bus stop.

325
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:41,220
People call 911.

326
00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:42,220
They don't know what to do.

327
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:45,020
They think someone's dead or dying, and sometimes they are.

328
00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:48,140
So I can't fix that with a fire truck.

329
00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:53,780
I can't fix that as a firefighter in one call.

330
00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:56,220
The other one is substance use disorder.

331
00:20:56,220 --> 00:21:02,500
So of course our fentanyl and opiate crisis, huge, huge increase.

332
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:05,660
I can't fix their addiction with one visit.

333
00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:08,580
And then behavioral health emergencies.

334
00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:12,620
We have members with schizophrenia, paranoia.

335
00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:18,660
They're ripping off their clothes, running down the middle of a major highway, cars dodging

336
00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:19,660
them.

337
00:21:19,660 --> 00:21:21,140
We're trying to save them.

338
00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:25,620
And I can't fix their schizophrenia in one visit.

339
00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:31,220
So what this does, instead of at the end of a shift to fill our purpose of saying, I made

340
00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:37,140
a difference today, it's more like I saw this person today twice.

341
00:21:37,140 --> 00:21:38,860
I gave them Narcan twice.

342
00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:43,380
I'm going to see them again next shift and the next shift and the next shift.

343
00:21:43,380 --> 00:21:45,700
And then what am I doing?

344
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,340
Am I having purpose?

345
00:21:48,340 --> 00:21:51,740
Am I even making a difference?

346
00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:56,140
This is where us feeling worthless lives in this space.

347
00:21:56,140 --> 00:21:57,820
And it's damaging, James.

348
00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:02,860
And it's for us to go home and feeling like I'm climbing up this mountain of mud.

349
00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:07,100
We're not going anywhere is difficult.

350
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:11,020
So our data is increasing year after year.

351
00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:14,980
So just in Renton, we did 25,000 calls last year.

352
00:22:14,980 --> 00:22:17,320
We only have seven stations.

353
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,620
But I look back in the last five years, every year it's increasing from 400 to 600 calls

354
00:22:23,620 --> 00:22:24,620
a year.

355
00:22:24,620 --> 00:22:26,340
So where is it going?

356
00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:32,200
We still only work 24 hours, which a lot of times gets to your, how do we do shift work?

357
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,200
What can we control?

358
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,500
Because I can't control the 911 calls coming in at all.

359
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:42,220
But maybe I can control how our firefighters work, what they do when they're off duty.

360
00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:44,540
How do I support them to be more resilient?

361
00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:46,280
Because this work is here.

362
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,160
We can't control it.

363
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,380
But maybe like we've done in the last 10 years, we hire nurses and social workers to work

364
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:55,660
with the chronic needs.

365
00:22:55,660 --> 00:23:00,500
So this is akin to a house that catches on fire.

366
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:01,660
Really exciting.

367
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:02,820
That's our purpose.

368
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:07,820
We go, we think we put it out, but it rekindles again the next day.

369
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:12,660
And the next day, every shift we work, that same house catches fire.

370
00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:14,340
That doesn't make sense to us.

371
00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:16,900
So it's the same thing with these chronic needs.

372
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:19,620
It's that rekindle that keeps happening.

373
00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:22,280
Pretty exciting for that house fire the first time.

374
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:28,100
As you know, rekindles are the worst, but that's what's happening with our EMS medical

375
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:29,100
work.

376
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:34,020
We rekindle and it feels like, what am I doing with this job that used to be so purpose

377
00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:35,860
filled?

378
00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:36,860
So that's all.

379
00:23:36,860 --> 00:23:39,540
No, no, that's such a powerful perspective.

380
00:23:39,540 --> 00:23:41,060
It really is.

381
00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:44,820
One of the things that came across my radar a few years ago, I had a guest talking about

382
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:49,060
it and I would love to even get a company as a sponsor.

383
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:51,500
And I think this needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

384
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:57,980
But when COVID happened, a lot of the red tape was cut on the telehealth side, obviously.

385
00:23:57,980 --> 00:24:03,860
And that, from what I understand, really empowered some companies to be able to put telehealth

386
00:24:03,860 --> 00:24:05,900
into the 911 dispatch system.

387
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,740
I love this idea.

388
00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:12,420
So of course, like you said, an opioid overdose, we're going to send paramedics to that.

389
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:13,820
That needs to be mitigated.

390
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:20,940
But a lot of the BLS or lower calls, the stomach ache, or not even stomach ache is a bad example,

391
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:24,660
but the child threw up once, their new parents are freaking out thinking they're going to

392
00:24:24,660 --> 00:24:26,240
be dehydrated.

393
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:32,260
And so once they realize it's not an acute call, they tell the person who's called,

394
00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:33,260
we've got two options.

395
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:37,580
We can send an ambulance to your house or we can give you a virtual consultation with

396
00:24:37,580 --> 00:24:39,300
an ER physician.

397
00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:42,380
And a lot of times people will go, well, that's all I want to just talk to a doctor and make

398
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:45,580
sure that my toddler is not dying.

399
00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:48,740
And so now they have this interaction.

400
00:24:48,740 --> 00:24:53,580
And then ultimately, obviously, if it's something that is less acute, then they're able to kind

401
00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:56,540
of coach them through it, to take the clothes off for the fever.

402
00:24:56,540 --> 00:25:01,100
If you've got any Tylenol, yeah, OK, give them some pediatric Tylenol.

403
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,700
And then if this, this, or this happens, then call us back.

404
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:09,160
And now you've saved that family from an immense medical bill.

405
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,820
You freed up an ER bed and the crew that would have woken up didn't.

406
00:25:13,820 --> 00:25:18,780
And I think that's a beautiful tool to bring into the fire service as obviously, hopefully,

407
00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:23,740
the nation starts addressing the issues that are actually causing so much disease in this

408
00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:24,740
country.

409
00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:25,740
Yeah.

410
00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:28,180
Thank you for bringing that up.

411
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:34,060
And so let's explore this a little bit because we've had what's called the nurse line for

412
00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:38,700
a very long time here in King County and Washington.

413
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,860
We've also for the last couple of years have millions funneled of state funding into what's

414
00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:44,460
called 9-8-8.

415
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:48,260
And that's in some other states also where it's a mental health line.

416
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:53,740
Instead of 9-1-1, they can actually talk to a crisis person in crisis.

417
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:57,580
So why is it that we have this ability?

418
00:25:57,580 --> 00:26:02,380
There's even a lot of insurance if they have the means with a phone that does video or

419
00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:05,460
a laptop to actually do telehealth.

420
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:14,220
So why is it that people still want 9-1-1 and they will adjust their call to get 9-1-1?

421
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:15,220
Well you think about it.

422
00:26:15,220 --> 00:26:18,980
It's the first number you can call.

423
00:26:18,980 --> 00:26:24,140
You get two or three firefighters there fairly quickly, even if they just go code yellow

424
00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:27,060
with no lights and sirens.

425
00:26:27,060 --> 00:26:29,380
It's a human connection.

426
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:31,640
They want a human there.

427
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:37,020
We know telehealth can work when you're stable, your mind is stable, your body's, you have

428
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:38,440
the patience for it.

429
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:44,220
But when you want a human interaction because no one else cares, your family has left you,

430
00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:49,780
you're on the street, you're in a lonely apartment, people want humans.

431
00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:52,180
And this is the hardest thing for us.

432
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:57,740
So how this really opened my eyes, because it is a whole system problem.

433
00:26:57,740 --> 00:27:00,500
We have a broken healthcare system, 100%.

434
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:02,780
We have a broken housing system.

435
00:27:02,780 --> 00:27:09,260
So we have members who are non-ambulatory that because there's no one else to live,

436
00:27:09,260 --> 00:27:14,100
they're on the third floor of a lower income apartment with no elevator.

437
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:20,180
They have critical needs of a dialysis appointment and they can't get down the stairs.

438
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:26,580
So what happens six times in one week, people would call and they were told to call by their

439
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:27,940
insurance company.

440
00:27:27,940 --> 00:27:32,160
They called their office in the fire station and said, hey, we need your fire truck to

441
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:39,520
show up at 1 p.m. on Thursday to carry down Mrs. Jones, to get her into an Uber, to get

442
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,920
to the dialysis.

443
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,060
Then I need the fire truck to come back two hours later to carry her back up.

444
00:27:45,060 --> 00:27:49,420
So every Thursday we need you to, and this kept happening and happening.

445
00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:54,100
And our people are just, the staff is like, oh, I'm so sorry, we don't do appointments.

446
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:55,620
We're the fire department.

447
00:27:55,620 --> 00:27:57,640
We are just emergency.

448
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,700
And so they said, oh, I'll just call 911 then.

449
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,660
And so this is part of what we're doing.

450
00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:09,020
And so this is where our social workers, our mobile integrated health, which is called

451
00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:16,460
FD Cares, this is where they come in and start helping manage to get and navigate this person

452
00:28:16,460 --> 00:28:21,340
to a ground floor apartment where they can get to basic needs.

453
00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:28,220
So I'm hopeful, James, I'm hopeful for telehealth and for helping things over.

454
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:29,620
But there is something missing.

455
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:36,460
There's with our folks experiencing homelessness with our folks that live by themselves and

456
00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:39,740
they're in crisis, they need a human.

457
00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:43,020
And 911 is still that funnel.

458
00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:49,740
So I'm hopeful that for telehealth, but again, how do we, what kind of control measures do

459
00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:50,740
we have?

460
00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:56,180
Who can we send if we know it's breaking down our firefighters mentally and physically because

461
00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:58,100
our people getting smaller?

462
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:03,300
No, these poor firefighters are lifting 300, 400 pound people the best they can.

463
00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:09,820
I'm buying every type of electric stair chair, mega movers, gate belts, everything I can.

464
00:29:09,820 --> 00:29:13,020
But people are getting heavier.

465
00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:17,700
So we have to somehow navigate through the system and the healthcare system is still

466
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:19,740
making money off of them.

467
00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:24,100
We're doing this free work for them because they don't want to move them into an apartment

468
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,880
to care for them, to get them into a adult care facility.

469
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,360
It is a tough one, James.

470
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,860
So I'm glad you mentioned it, but there's a lot of things to it.

471
00:29:32,860 --> 00:29:33,860
Absolutely.

472
00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:37,180
Well, let's go to a question I pose a lot of people.

473
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:45,140
If you were king for a day, what would you do to positively impact the physical and mental

474
00:29:45,140 --> 00:29:48,660
health of this nation?

475
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:57,100
So if I was king, I would see two things as basic human rights and that's education and

476
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:59,260
healthcare from an early age.

477
00:29:59,260 --> 00:30:04,180
They need to go in combination because our health is part of education.

478
00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:10,240
So when we talk about United Healthcare, I'm just going to call them out.

479
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:16,340
They have to post their profits in the first quarter of 2024.

480
00:30:16,340 --> 00:30:21,260
They are $8.3 billion profit.

481
00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:27,700
So in the area that people are just so struggling, struggling basic healthcare, we have people,

482
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:32,980
major people profiting, some of the largest corporations.

483
00:30:32,980 --> 00:30:35,460
It could roll right into pharmaceuticals.

484
00:30:35,460 --> 00:30:36,460
Everyone knows.

485
00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:37,580
It's like we know this.

486
00:30:37,580 --> 00:30:39,080
We know it's broken.

487
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,140
So I'm just seeing where we are in the fire service.

488
00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:47,820
So we need a whole revamp of our healthcare system and people that are making money.

489
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:49,540
How does this flow in?

490
00:30:49,540 --> 00:30:54,940
Because police and fire are really the only boots on the ground that still make house

491
00:30:54,940 --> 00:30:55,940
calls.

492
00:30:55,940 --> 00:31:01,340
They will meet you in your moment of crisis, wherever you are in the homeless encampment,

493
00:31:01,340 --> 00:31:06,060
on the side of a road in your home, will find you.

494
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:07,760
And who else does that?

495
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,380
So we have this vessel of these amazing first responders and every politician wants to use

496
00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:16,920
us and they're going to the well with us.

497
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,820
They want to use us to hand out blankets to folks experiencing homelessness.

498
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:26,140
They want us to leave behind Narcan to go visit them, to bring them into the fire station.

499
00:31:26,140 --> 00:31:31,140
That was an idea is to have everyone shoot up in a fire station because it's safe.

500
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:33,460
If they overdose, they're right there.

501
00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:39,580
Can you imagine now our fire stations, unfortunately, are a fortress.

502
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:40,940
We have locking gates.

503
00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:47,940
We have cameras because we've been shot at twice with 45 caliber.

504
00:31:47,940 --> 00:31:52,780
We've had people hanging out and living around the fire stations.

505
00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:57,900
How can our firefighters rescue anyone if they don't feel safe themselves in their own

506
00:31:57,900 --> 00:31:59,520
fire station?

507
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,620
So the quickest way to help the community, we need to help our firefighters.

508
00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:09,540
If they're not feeling safe, if they're not rested and a hundred percent, just like that

509
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:14,080
oxygen mask on an airplane, you put it on yourself before you help the kid.

510
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,620
We've got to make sure we're safe.

511
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:17,480
And so this is the impacts to this.

512
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,860
So King for a day, I would start early.

513
00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:23,120
Everyone that's a basic right, you get that health care.

514
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,820
We got to take the profit out of just education and health.

515
00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:29,820
We have to take that out.

516
00:32:29,820 --> 00:32:32,060
And it needs to start right from the beginning.

517
00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:34,120
It doesn't mean just giving everything for free.

518
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,060
It's having a system where people are actually cared for because profits are being made.

519
00:32:39,060 --> 00:32:43,400
It's just, it's a broken system and they're not going to build enough hospitals.

520
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,700
They just aren't.

521
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:48,420
So we need to get back to healthy education.

522
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:53,020
I was fortunate enough to speak to Tulsi Gabbard a few weeks ago and I put all of these questions

523
00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:57,180
to her, you know, all the things that I've never heard her really kind of posed before,

524
00:32:57,180 --> 00:32:59,820
but the ones that actually affect us all in listening.

525
00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:04,820
Not many of us are really genuinely affected by the Ukraine or transgender athletes that

526
00:33:04,820 --> 00:33:06,220
you see over and over again.

527
00:33:06,220 --> 00:33:14,260
And it was, it was so great to hear because she's obviously a real empath herself.

528
00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:18,620
And over and over again, whether it's healthcare, whether it's war, whether it's so many elements,

529
00:33:18,620 --> 00:33:20,540
it's this false economy.

530
00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:25,100
And when I think about the NHS that I grew up in, the healthcare that I had, that I hardly

531
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:31,460
ever used because I was a healthy young man, when it was needed, it was there, you know,

532
00:33:31,460 --> 00:33:34,580
and there was always that sense of, well, we're all just going to take care of each

533
00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:35,580
other.

534
00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:39,560
And there wasn't, you know, a massive abuse back then and it's morphed a little bit now,

535
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:46,340
but the philosophy that you take care of everyone was just this ingrained part of British culture.

536
00:33:46,340 --> 00:33:50,300
Conversely, I moved to the States and it's a profit based system.

537
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:55,780
And I'm not some great economist at all, but I do understand supply and demand.

538
00:33:55,780 --> 00:34:01,980
And so if you have a system that's based on profiteering off ill health, there's no checks

539
00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:04,480
and balances to make the nation healthy.

540
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:05,980
And that's exactly what we're seeing.

541
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:09,340
We're 70% obese or overweight in this country.

542
00:34:09,340 --> 00:34:11,940
But that should be absolutely terrifying.

543
00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:16,120
And even now, as they've kind of picked apart the NHS in the UK, I've watched my British

544
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,020
men and women get bigger and bigger and bigger.

545
00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:23,400
And now they're, you know, that's just causing more financial drain on their system.

546
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,060
What should be happening is this system where it's tax based.

547
00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:32,560
So therefore you're doing everything you can to make the nation as healthy as possible.

548
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,340
That's actually what would make everything go back down to where it needs to be.

549
00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:40,820
But taking a step back and realizing that the drug companies and the healthcare companies

550
00:34:40,820 --> 00:34:48,460
and some of these hospital organizations that they thrive on disease, that's their customer,

551
00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:49,940
the long term drug addict.

552
00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:56,500
And it's not opioids, maybe it might be statins or beta blockers, but they need you to keep

553
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:58,280
taking their stuff.

554
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,700
And so that is only going to make it worse and worse and worse.

555
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:06,300
And then if you factor in other areas, like the pool of people that you need for the final

556
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:10,140
fire service, for law enforcement, for the military is shrinking.

557
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:14,300
Now even the very national security becomes an issue.

558
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:15,780
Yeah.

559
00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:21,100
And you know, that's, the fire services is caught right in the middle.

560
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:29,000
And for us to not to ignore that and not see where we're getting pinched in this for profit.

561
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:35,060
So many stories about large conglomerate adult care facilities, big money.

562
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:37,540
They have these, you know, high rise buildings.

563
00:35:37,540 --> 00:35:43,420
They're hiring the most minimum staff and they're having that staff that say, oh, if

564
00:35:43,420 --> 00:35:47,880
someone that you're moving falls to the ground, that's a fire department call.

565
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,620
They have to come and pick them up.

566
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:54,100
And I'm like, no, they're paying you to care for them.

567
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:55,780
We shouldn't be picking up.

568
00:35:55,780 --> 00:35:57,520
And it's dominating.

569
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,500
They will use us as much as possible.

570
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,880
So that's my big stand.

571
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,200
I'm doing a movement called who's looking out for us.

572
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,000
If we want to care for the community, who's caring for the fire department, stop adding

573
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,620
to our plate.

574
00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:17,980
Let us be great at what we signed up to do.

575
00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:21,380
Don't make us just okay at a whole bunch of things.

576
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:26,300
And they want to make us, they want to send us to, you know, social work training so we

577
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:30,020
can navigate, so we can help, you know, do behavioral health training.

578
00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:33,700
I'm like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm a fixer.

579
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:36,740
I got into this job because I like to fix people's problems.

580
00:36:36,740 --> 00:36:38,900
I like to mitigate hazards.

581
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:42,700
I'm not good with seeing one person over and over again.

582
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,340
That's we're transactional.

583
00:36:44,340 --> 00:36:45,600
The house is on fire.

584
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,260
We put it out, we clean up, we go home, we do it again.

585
00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:50,800
That's where we live.

586
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,140
So it's going to break us down, James.

587
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:59,220
I'm I feel like that, you know, the sky is falling person, but I'm like telling chiefs,

588
00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:01,300
wake up, see where this is going.

589
00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:02,660
The numbers are there.

590
00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:09,980
If you keep doing increased call loads every year, if you keep doing increased training

591
00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:15,660
every year, these two vectors keep, it's still only a 24 hour shift.

592
00:37:15,660 --> 00:37:17,340
They are doing more with less.

593
00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:23,060
And now you're surprised and you're blaming this generation Z that they're lazy and entitled.

594
00:37:23,060 --> 00:37:26,660
They're doing way more calls and training than we ever did.

595
00:37:26,660 --> 00:37:29,380
And so it's time to invest in our people.

596
00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:35,460
If we want recruitment, retention, no less burnout.

597
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:37,220
What is their time off?

598
00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:39,420
How are they recovering in their time off?

599
00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:44,020
If I can't invest in them while they're here because they're too busy, what can I do when

600
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:45,360
they're off?

601
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:50,300
Can I maybe buy them a subscription, a one year subscription to calm app so they can

602
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:52,380
meditate and learn some breathing.

603
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:54,680
And then if they like it, they can get to it on their own.

604
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,460
Can I introduce them to yoga?

605
00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:59,980
Can I introduce them into sleep studies and podcasts?

606
00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:04,540
Can we actually give them relationship and financial help?

607
00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:10,080
So their lives outside of work will be much better when they come to work.

608
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,540
If the community is going to take a hundred percent of them when they come to work, I

609
00:38:15,540 --> 00:38:17,500
need them to recover a hundred percent.

610
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:22,860
You ever see those batteries that you don't let fully charge and then you use again and

611
00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:27,500
they kind of keep their fully charged becomes only like 60 percent.

612
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:32,740
I felt like our firefighters were going through that because overtime was so high and burnout

613
00:38:32,740 --> 00:38:36,700
was there that I want them to get a hundred percent.

614
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,860
So they come because they want to help.

615
00:38:38,860 --> 00:38:40,760
They really want to help.

616
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,700
They want to help our community.

617
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:47,460
So invest in your people outside of work, which just blows the mind of most chiefs.

618
00:38:47,460 --> 00:38:49,700
They're like, wait a minute, Chuck, we're giving them a good job here.

619
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:50,820
We're paying them.

620
00:38:50,820 --> 00:38:54,220
They've got good engines and good equipment and good fire stations.

621
00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:56,540
I'm saying, yeah, that's a good start.

622
00:38:56,540 --> 00:38:57,860
But what are they doing?

623
00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:02,340
Are they using, you know, other addictions and substances outside?

624
00:39:02,340 --> 00:39:04,220
How is their relationships?

625
00:39:04,220 --> 00:39:08,540
Because if they're struggling outside of work, how effective they going to be here?

626
00:39:08,540 --> 00:39:13,960
So it's a different way of looking of people.

627
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,980
And we're so good at fire engines, right?

628
00:39:16,980 --> 00:39:22,980
So we know our mechanics know that soon as our fire engines have so many miles and hours

629
00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:26,060
on them, it's time for service.

630
00:39:26,060 --> 00:39:31,060
I also know that we get about 10 years of life on the front lines till we move that

631
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:33,660
fire engine to reserve status.

632
00:39:33,660 --> 00:39:37,540
And I've we've got firetruck purchasing out 30 years.

633
00:39:37,540 --> 00:39:42,020
We spent we just spent two point three million on an aerial platform.

634
00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:43,240
That's real money.

635
00:39:43,240 --> 00:39:45,300
But who's going to drive these things?

636
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:53,340
So even our vehicles have dashboard warning lights when they get low on fuel and low on

637
00:39:53,340 --> 00:39:54,940
fluid.

638
00:39:54,940 --> 00:39:57,460
Some things you can say, all right, we can go back to the station.

639
00:39:57,460 --> 00:40:03,400
I'll let the mechanic know some indicator lights are like, oh, no, pull over right now.

640
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,580
We don't move.

641
00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:08,680
What are our miles on our people?

642
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,020
And if you're looking at these call loads and this type of chronic needs that are burning

643
00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:15,940
us out, those are miles.

644
00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:19,580
How are we servicing our firefighters?

645
00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:25,160
What are the indicator lights of some of our firefighters that said this is a warning?

646
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,660
We're so good with our apparatus, but we don't we don't think of the same concept with our

647
00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:30,860
people.

648
00:40:30,860 --> 00:40:33,220
What are these miles doing to them?

649
00:40:33,220 --> 00:40:35,020
And it's a it's a whole new way of looking.

650
00:40:35,020 --> 00:40:38,620
This is what I'm trying to inspire chiefs to think about this, because where is this

651
00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:39,620
going?

652
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:41,780
Well, I think we're seeing where it's going.

653
00:40:41,780 --> 00:40:43,100
And this is this is the thing.

654
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:45,340
And I'm when you're on a hill, shout like a crazy person.

655
00:40:45,340 --> 00:40:46,340
Look to your right.

656
00:40:46,340 --> 00:40:50,100
I'm on another hill, shouting about 2472.

657
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:51,700
Last eight years almost.

658
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:53,420
But this is the point.

659
00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:59,300
I think that you can look at it doom and gloom and go the fire service is crumbling or you

660
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:04,060
can look at it as like, wow, now it's got so bad that people are finally going to pay

661
00:41:04,060 --> 00:41:07,380
attention and we can fix the things that are a problem.

662
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:11,220
Because just like you said about the Gen Z, what I hear over again is, oh, well, we can't

663
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:16,220
hire now because of the Gen Gen Z's and then everything that you just described.

664
00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:18,080
What I think is the polar opposite.

665
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,620
What I think is partly the Gen Z's are children of the fire service that grew up around it.

666
00:41:23,620 --> 00:41:25,440
And mom and dad weren't home.

667
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,700
And they saw them come back, Ambry, and they saw them drink and they saw that job kind

668
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:32,380
of tear their parents apart, whatever it was.

669
00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:36,280
And just like the veteran community, their children grew up in 20 years of war.

670
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:42,980
They're not seeing that father or the son or daughter want to join that particular profession

671
00:41:42,980 --> 00:41:47,900
anymore because not the job, but the kind of environment that they worked in.

672
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:49,980
So you have that element.

673
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:53,540
But I think that there's also an opportunity to fix that.

674
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:57,500
And I think that what I was going to go back a second, I kind of stumbled on myself there.

675
00:41:57,500 --> 00:41:59,540
Let me write that down.

676
00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:00,540
All right.

677
00:42:00,540 --> 00:42:01,600
Hold on.

678
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:07,460
So what the Gen Z are very good at is researching and asking why.

679
00:42:07,460 --> 00:42:08,740
Why do you do it that way?

680
00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:13,420
And I think what's happened, the real issue that we're experiencing is the people, obviously,

681
00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:14,420
that are in it.

682
00:42:14,420 --> 00:42:16,100
A lot of them are just saying, I'm going to retire early.

683
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:17,100
I'm done.

684
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,220
I'm transitioning to real estate, whatever it is.

685
00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:24,280
But then also the new recruits that would be excited are now researching it.

686
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:30,020
And when I started, which is about 10 plus years, 15 years after you did, when I typed

687
00:42:30,020 --> 00:42:35,220
in what's it like to be a firefighter, it was ladder 49 and back draft and 9-11 and

688
00:42:35,220 --> 00:42:36,220
343.

689
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:39,020
And it was all glory and American flags.

690
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:40,020
And rightly so.

691
00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:41,580
That is the job.

692
00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:47,300
But now in 2024, if I Google what it's like to be a firefighter, equally an opposite,

693
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:51,880
it will be divorce, overdose, cancer, all the other things now.

694
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,260
So if you spread that out on a desk in front of someone who's considering the profession

695
00:42:56,260 --> 00:43:00,220
and you say, oh, by the way, it's 56 hours a week and 7 o'clock that morning, you might

696
00:43:00,220 --> 00:43:02,220
get a phone call saying you can't go home.

697
00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:04,500
Now you've just done an 80 hour week.

698
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:07,060
They're going to go, that sounds a bit shit to me.

699
00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:11,000
I think I'm going to go and learn to be a carpenter or whatever the other options they

700
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,420
were weighing up.

701
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:15,940
So this is a really important conversation.

702
00:43:15,940 --> 00:43:21,860
We are at a critical mass because people do not, in general, want to be a firefighter

703
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:22,860
anymore.

704
00:43:22,860 --> 00:43:24,220
But it's not the job that's changed.

705
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:28,940
The job is just as beautiful and altruistic as it ever was.

706
00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:34,620
But as you said, we've asked over and over again for our responders to do more and more

707
00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:36,220
with less and less.

708
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:37,220
And here we are.

709
00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:38,220
It's 2024.

710
00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:42,260
It's time to put your big boy pants on and either watch the whole thing collapse or be

711
00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:44,780
part of the solution.

712
00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:46,180
And I love that.

713
00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:49,860
We 100% need to look at this as the glass is half full.

714
00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:55,660
We have a generation coming in that has talents that you and I did not have.

715
00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:57,060
They are learning faster.

716
00:43:57,060 --> 00:44:00,600
They're bringing a sense of technology.

717
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,820
They are all in to our mental well-being.

718
00:44:04,820 --> 00:44:05,900
They get it.

719
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:08,260
They embrace it and they love it.

720
00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:09,820
So I'm kind of excited.

721
00:44:09,820 --> 00:44:10,820
100%.

722
00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:13,060
I've got a 20 year old and a 25 year old.

723
00:44:13,060 --> 00:44:18,500
So these are our kids, my kids that I'm hiring.

724
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:21,720
And for them to come in, they can help change this.

725
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,140
They want to impact culture.

726
00:44:24,140 --> 00:44:31,620
So to get us from not saying the sky is falling and we need to actually talk about solutions.

727
00:44:31,620 --> 00:44:37,140
So this it is, it's mental health awareness month, but I want us to stop beating the drum

728
00:44:37,140 --> 00:44:38,660
that we keep seeing trauma.

729
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:44,840
I want us to really start focusing on what we can control and start investing in these

730
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,280
people that we're adding more and more to.

731
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,820
So if I can't take care of them fully, they're just going to be used when they get to the

732
00:44:52,820 --> 00:44:54,180
fire station.

733
00:44:54,180 --> 00:44:58,460
And that used to not be, you know, when I started in the eighties, it was slow.

734
00:44:58,460 --> 00:45:00,480
We played cards.

735
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:01,900
We did practical jokes.

736
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:03,980
We had amazing meals together.

737
00:45:03,980 --> 00:45:09,060
I worked with Vietnam vets that would tell me intense stories.

738
00:45:09,060 --> 00:45:11,980
And what that did, it built trust.

739
00:45:11,980 --> 00:45:13,540
I actually got to know everyone.

740
00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:17,080
I heard about their families, kids, relationship, their hobbies.

741
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,500
We talked about hobbies a lot.

742
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:26,220
Now if they're running from training to calls to training to calls, is that bond that camaraderie

743
00:45:26,220 --> 00:45:33,220
still being, you know, organically just developed and that trust that we need.

744
00:45:33,220 --> 00:45:39,520
And so investing in them outside of service, outside of the job is huge.

745
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,460
And I know labor, the time is just asking for more money is probably going away.

746
00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:48,300
What they're going to start asking for, and it goes back to what you talked about with

747
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:49,440
scheduling.

748
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,660
They want time.

749
00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:53,700
They're tired of working overtime.

750
00:45:53,700 --> 00:45:55,300
They want to recoup.

751
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:56,300
That's them.

752
00:45:56,300 --> 00:45:59,260
And that's their indicator lights.

753
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:03,540
If they're calling in sick more, if you're a chief and you're noticing a rise in sickly

754
00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:07,660
views, that's them saying, I need a break.

755
00:46:07,660 --> 00:46:08,980
I want to do this job.

756
00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:14,180
I actually want to be here, but I feel I'm losing part of me and my family.

757
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:15,740
Every time I do.

758
00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:21,460
So take heed of those indicator lights with your people and start thinking about, are

759
00:46:21,460 --> 00:46:23,380
they getting enough time off?

760
00:46:23,380 --> 00:46:27,340
Because this community is going to take a hundred percent.

761
00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:30,320
So we want our people upfitted for that.

762
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,540
And Gen Z is just fantastic.

763
00:46:32,540 --> 00:46:36,340
They don't want to wait 10 years to impact culture.

764
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:38,900
And that's something I want us to get out of.

765
00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:41,440
Everyone says, change the culture.

766
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,520
People say remove the stigma in the fire station.

767
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,380
Those have no action to them.

768
00:46:47,380 --> 00:46:49,900
If you want to change, what is culture?

769
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:53,280
You know, fire department, people like to throw that around.

770
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:59,340
Culture really is your daily behaviors and habits that you bring in every shift there.

771
00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:03,980
I'm trying my best to maybe have that top down impact with culture and trying to lead

772
00:47:03,980 --> 00:47:06,300
with action and everything we do.

773
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:11,420
We carry weight with what we do, but I'm not in the fire stations.

774
00:47:11,420 --> 00:47:12,820
How are they coming to work?

775
00:47:12,820 --> 00:47:14,340
How's their attitude on serving?

776
00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:16,100
How are they doing?

777
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:18,520
That's our culture.

778
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,540
And so I want, they want to, Gen Z wants to impact culture a hundred percent.

779
00:47:23,540 --> 00:47:24,700
They don't want to wait.

780
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:29,460
They want to be heard and they want to be valued.

781
00:47:29,460 --> 00:47:34,540
Listen to your people because this fire service is nothing like when you and I started.

782
00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:41,300
If you're not finding ways and it's not a survey, it's not a, you know, anonymous,

783
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,980
you know, here's, here's an online thing.

784
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:49,900
If you want, you, you get an outside consultant to come in and what we did, we called them

785
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,140
kitchen table talks.

786
00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:55,740
We had an amazing outside of consultant from the Midwest.

787
00:47:55,740 --> 00:48:02,500
Her name's Callie from Melios and she came in as a third party led by our peer support

788
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:04,660
lead for each station.

789
00:48:04,660 --> 00:48:08,820
And she sat down at the kitchen table because she asked me, she goes, Chuck, what problem

790
00:48:08,820 --> 00:48:10,360
are you trying to solve?

791
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:15,340
And I'm like, well, we've got, we had COVID and vaccine mandates out here and we lost

792
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:17,020
some of our members.

793
00:48:17,020 --> 00:48:18,020
We have burnout.

794
00:48:18,020 --> 00:48:19,460
They're working too much over time.

795
00:48:19,460 --> 00:48:23,140
It's just, she goes, get the dialogue down.

796
00:48:23,140 --> 00:48:27,420
You should know exactly what you're trying, what problem you're trying to solve.

797
00:48:27,420 --> 00:48:31,620
And then she goes, do you know what they're dealing with out there?

798
00:48:31,620 --> 00:48:35,600
And I go, I kind of do, but I'm not on the fire engines anymore.

799
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,540
She goes, I need to listen.

800
00:48:37,540 --> 00:48:38,740
I don't, I want to hear it.

801
00:48:38,740 --> 00:48:43,380
Not only their concerns, I want to hear some of their solutions and their solutions were

802
00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:45,700
things that I couldn't even think of.

803
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:50,700
So she sat at the most holy place of the fire station and that's at the kitchen table where

804
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:52,780
we solve all the problems.

805
00:48:52,780 --> 00:48:54,580
And she listened.

806
00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:59,580
And some of the things that were shared were things that our chief would never hear.

807
00:48:59,580 --> 00:49:01,220
And it has helped us move.

808
00:49:01,220 --> 00:49:02,720
It's communication.

809
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:05,460
So they do, they want to be heard and valued.

810
00:49:05,460 --> 00:49:07,900
And now you have to do something about that.

811
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:09,020
You have to connect.

812
00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:10,740
You work with labor.

813
00:49:10,740 --> 00:49:14,940
Labor has to be hand in hand with this and understanding where we're going.

814
00:49:14,940 --> 00:49:21,060
So that's to me, some of the advantage of Generation Z is they're going to bring ideas.

815
00:49:21,060 --> 00:49:27,740
54% of our firefighters in Renton have less than five years on.

816
00:49:27,740 --> 00:49:29,260
They're the majority.

817
00:49:29,260 --> 00:49:31,220
So it's their fire service.

818
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:37,860
If you want them to actually do a job like this for 20, 30 years, you better listen.

819
00:49:37,860 --> 00:49:40,220
Because it's nothing like we are doing.

820
00:49:40,220 --> 00:49:42,320
I want the best for the community.

821
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,380
To do that, we want the best for our firefighters.

822
00:49:45,380 --> 00:49:48,220
There's conversations to happen.

823
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:55,860
What have you seen about recruitment in your area specifically over the last 20, 30 years?

824
00:49:55,860 --> 00:49:56,860
Great question.

825
00:49:56,860 --> 00:50:00,840
So the last 20 years, Renton is very diverse.

826
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,180
And so what we found is there were gaps.

827
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:09,220
And that same perception that when I started, it's like, how do you even become a firefighter?

828
00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:12,860
I think that would be fun, but there's no information on becoming.

829
00:50:12,860 --> 00:50:14,680
You have to be in the know.

830
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,380
And so normally we were getting people that went through the volunteer aspect.

831
00:50:19,380 --> 00:50:23,820
They knew somebody, they signed up, they did some volunteering, and then they sought this

832
00:50:23,820 --> 00:50:25,820
job out.

833
00:50:25,820 --> 00:50:27,660
But we did a lot of job fairs.

834
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:34,020
We started talking to kids in middle school and high school and bring them the possibility

835
00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:38,140
Renton we have 72 different languages spoken here.

836
00:50:38,140 --> 00:50:39,140
Oh, wow.

837
00:50:39,140 --> 00:50:44,220
And so if we're in the most trusted profession, you know, they always talk about nurses being

838
00:50:44,220 --> 00:50:46,220
the most trusted profession.

839
00:50:46,220 --> 00:50:52,180
But when I think about where the only government agency that can go into someone's home, into

840
00:50:52,180 --> 00:50:55,900
their bedroom, because the husband had a stroke and we need to lift them and get them to the

841
00:50:55,900 --> 00:51:01,660
hospital without a search warrant, we are allowed in.

842
00:51:01,660 --> 00:51:03,900
If you think about that for a second.

843
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:11,020
How often did a spouse hand you their wallet to say, oh, here's my husband's name and the

844
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:12,620
medications are in there.

845
00:51:12,620 --> 00:51:14,740
Oh, there's the medicine cabinet.

846
00:51:14,740 --> 00:51:16,700
Yeah, it takes Percocet and Oxycontin.

847
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:18,200
It's all in there.

848
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:24,740
So much trust that has been built out through years that can be lost in a second.

849
00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:26,440
We are trusted.

850
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,760
So going into someone's home like that takes it takes a lot.

851
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:38,860
And so, you know, pretty, pretty powerful statement of how we can represent if they

852
00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:44,900
are in bed wearing whatever they are at two in the morning and they look at faces that

853
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:46,860
they can identify with.

854
00:51:46,860 --> 00:51:51,960
Maybe it's an issue that a female has, you know, that's more private and she's looking

855
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,980
at three men, you know.

856
00:51:53,980 --> 00:51:56,780
And so we wanted to help represent Renton.

857
00:51:56,780 --> 00:52:02,300
We wanted people to feel like they could identify with us to feel bring people into the fire

858
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:04,520
station, understand it.

859
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:10,460
And if we are speaking 72 languages, let's let's reach out.

860
00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:12,700
And so we we worked with schools.

861
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:14,660
We looked at some of the gatekeepers.

862
00:52:14,660 --> 00:52:16,140
One was cost.

863
00:52:16,140 --> 00:52:22,220
A private agency was running all the testing from our CPAT test, the physical part to the

864
00:52:22,220 --> 00:52:23,880
written exam.

865
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:29,220
And it was expensive, two hundred dollars to put your name into a couple of departments.

866
00:52:29,220 --> 00:52:33,680
That's not always easy to do for, you know, a young 20 year old trying to figure out what

867
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:34,980
they want to do.

868
00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:41,660
So creating removing those costs, creating groups where they could take a practice test

869
00:52:41,660 --> 00:52:44,980
and before they even take the real one.

870
00:52:44,980 --> 00:52:45,980
Doing that.

871
00:52:45,980 --> 00:52:49,620
And actually we have women in fire and EMS.

872
00:52:49,620 --> 00:52:56,980
We have diversity workshops where people that are more diverse, women especially, can work

873
00:52:56,980 --> 00:53:04,260
with other women to say, hey, you are only five foot two raising up a ladder and working

874
00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:06,260
with the fire apparatus is difficult.

875
00:53:06,260 --> 00:53:09,660
So here are some smart techniques to use all of that.

876
00:53:09,660 --> 00:53:18,020
So we've invested in that to help recruit and retention is creating pathways.

877
00:53:18,020 --> 00:53:23,140
So if our people have an excitement for a certain area, maybe they really want to be

878
00:53:23,140 --> 00:53:28,980
in rope rescue, having a department that has avenues for them to expand their career and

879
00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:30,940
have more engagement.

880
00:53:30,940 --> 00:53:32,540
We have a water rescue.

881
00:53:32,540 --> 00:53:34,060
We have hazmat.

882
00:53:34,060 --> 00:53:38,680
We have pathways for our EMS and medical that they can instruct.

883
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,020
They can travel.

884
00:53:41,020 --> 00:53:45,260
It is is creating that engagement and letting them explore this job and find out where their

885
00:53:45,260 --> 00:53:47,740
passions are.

886
00:53:47,740 --> 00:53:53,420
Over and over again, I hear how successful well formed mentorship programs are.

887
00:53:53,420 --> 00:53:58,940
And I think I've said this many times on here, there's as much value for a young boy or girl

888
00:53:58,940 --> 00:54:04,980
or man or woman to discover through a mentorship program that they don't want to be a firefighter

889
00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:07,380
than there is the ones that do.

890
00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:09,540
So my stepson was one of them.

891
00:54:09,540 --> 00:54:15,300
But if you want to really reach out into underserved communities, whether that's gender or background

892
00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:21,780
or simply just socioeconomic, removing the barriers to entry and giving them the tools

893
00:54:21,780 --> 00:54:27,260
to be successful allows you to find the best candidates from those groups rather than what

894
00:54:27,260 --> 00:54:28,680
we've seen in some departments.

895
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:34,140
They just scoop up 20 black guys, bring them on, of which some are going to be phenomenal

896
00:54:34,140 --> 00:54:38,760
firefighters and some aren't, the same way as if you grouped any random group of people.

897
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,420
So I think that's absolutely one of the tools for recruitment.

898
00:54:42,420 --> 00:54:45,220
And then obviously, a byproduct is diversity.

899
00:54:45,220 --> 00:54:49,780
And I think the real diversity is not skin tone and sexual orientation.

900
00:54:49,780 --> 00:54:55,100
It's as you said, having that diverse toolbox of responders that will be the perfect fit

901
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:57,140
for each call.

902
00:54:57,140 --> 00:54:58,660
Yeah.

903
00:54:58,660 --> 00:55:03,980
And I want someone that is going to be a firefighter in Renton to know what they're getting into

904
00:55:03,980 --> 00:55:08,540
and really want this job because it's going to put them through a lot.

905
00:55:08,540 --> 00:55:12,200
I want them to want it and not just say, hey, that's not a bad option.

906
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,540
Because I do believe, especially on the West Coast, we're paid well, but we're going to

907
00:55:17,540 --> 00:55:19,900
ask a lot of our people, 100%.

908
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:21,660
So I want them to understand.

909
00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:28,580
And so we've gone from having a one day onboarding class before they start our job and enter

910
00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:34,320
the academy to now two weeks where we are letting them wear the gear and experience

911
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,300
whether they got any experience beforehand.

912
00:55:37,300 --> 00:55:40,740
We're teaching them, we're doing workouts together.

913
00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:46,220
We're bonding as a group so they can help support each other physically and mentally

914
00:55:46,220 --> 00:55:49,060
on the job and off the job through the academy.

915
00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:55,260
Let your people bond together, have some agency pride together.

916
00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:58,900
And so we've extended all that to make sure they're supported.

917
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:04,100
We have a fantastic fire and EMS academy that will hold.

918
00:56:04,100 --> 00:56:10,500
And unfortunately, if we hire 10, on average, we'll lose one in the academy because it is

919
00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:14,300
not the time or not the career forum.

920
00:56:14,300 --> 00:56:17,740
But that's where we're meeting with them on a weekly basis as chiefs.

921
00:56:17,740 --> 00:56:21,740
If they are struggling, we support them, give them the chance, but also if it's not their

922
00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:24,020
time and they're not making it.

923
00:56:24,020 --> 00:56:30,060
We want them to know that if they are a viable candidate, we would love to have you back.

924
00:56:30,060 --> 00:56:31,340
Come back and do it.

925
00:56:31,340 --> 00:56:34,580
So even on exit, we want to hear from them.

926
00:56:34,580 --> 00:56:36,180
We want to learn from them.

927
00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:41,340
But we also want them to know that, hey, we invested in you once.

928
00:56:41,340 --> 00:56:44,300
We would love to, you know, you mean something to us.

929
00:56:44,300 --> 00:56:46,060
It's not the time right now.

930
00:56:46,060 --> 00:56:49,640
It's up to you to decide if you want to continue and come back.

931
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,820
But we'd love to have you with VR.

932
00:56:52,820 --> 00:57:00,060
One of my favorite department, Anaheim, their bar was extremely high the time I got hired.

933
00:57:00,060 --> 00:57:05,200
And every class, mine and preceding classes, basically on average through attrition would

934
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,180
lose 25% of the new hire classes.

935
00:57:08,180 --> 00:57:09,740
But they stood by that high standard.

936
00:57:09,740 --> 00:57:14,580
And I think they probably almost factored it into their recruitment.

937
00:57:14,580 --> 00:57:17,160
And then you're, so that was by the end of the probationary year.

938
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,060
So that was an absolute crucible.

939
00:57:19,060 --> 00:57:24,980
So you feared for your job, not in a detrimental way, but it was you're constantly chasing

940
00:57:24,980 --> 00:57:26,740
that bar.

941
00:57:26,740 --> 00:57:30,620
And then by the time you came out, what I observed was, you know, you had great firefighters

942
00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:34,300
and then they, you know, some of them promoted, they became great engineers or captains or,

943
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:37,660
you know, battalion chiefs, and it carried all the way through.

944
00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:41,820
The last place I work, I would argue they had to dig a trench to drop the bar into.

945
00:57:41,820 --> 00:57:46,620
And I saw the converse and there, you know, at Anaheim, even those were slightly different

946
00:57:46,620 --> 00:57:47,620
timelines.

947
00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:52,780
I tested against a thousand people in the written test, all of whom were certified firefighters

948
00:57:52,780 --> 00:57:58,140
and EMTs with resumes of experience and volunteering and everything as well.

949
00:57:58,140 --> 00:58:03,160
I think I was, you know, just one of a handful of people in the other place.

950
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:09,660
So when I hear standards being dropped, supposedly to increase recruitment, my personal experience

951
00:58:09,660 --> 00:58:13,580
and you know, my version of common sense screams that the opposite is true.

952
00:58:13,580 --> 00:58:18,420
When you keep those standards high, you actually challenge people to reach that standard, which

953
00:58:18,420 --> 00:58:22,280
I think excites candidates and puts more outside your door.

954
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,660
What is your perspective of that idea?

955
00:58:24,660 --> 00:58:26,980
Yeah, and I do.

956
00:58:26,980 --> 00:58:34,620
It's taken us a long time to get to a standard CPAT test for physical entry.

957
00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:37,500
And there are some things that you'll have to overcome.

958
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:45,380
There's, if you've got height, you know, challenges, it's, you're going to have to get very crafty.

959
00:58:45,380 --> 00:58:52,940
But creating that expectation that this job is serious business, that there are some needs,

960
00:58:52,940 --> 00:58:59,060
some expectations, limitations of the job where you have to perform.

961
00:58:59,060 --> 00:59:05,380
But doing it in a way that they understand what they're getting into as best they can

962
00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:07,300
and giving them environment for them.

963
00:59:07,300 --> 00:59:10,580
They have to show that initiative to succeed.

964
00:59:10,580 --> 00:59:13,060
And if they're not, they know what they did wrong.

965
00:59:13,060 --> 00:59:15,820
And that's again, another Gen Z thing.

966
00:59:15,820 --> 00:59:19,660
These are whether it's their written test, they expect to get A's.

967
00:59:19,660 --> 00:59:23,660
They're not OK with a B and a C, which I was OK with.

968
00:59:23,660 --> 00:59:29,700
They expect perfection and they expect some, you know, some applause for that.

969
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:31,660
Also they said, I want to be recognized.

970
00:59:31,660 --> 00:59:35,160
It's like, well, no, this is our expectation that you do well.

971
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,420
You are a rent and firefighter.

972
00:59:37,420 --> 00:59:39,900
And if it's not your time, it's not your time.

973
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:42,000
But I believe you're right.

974
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:49,700
If we don't hold that high bar, because if we care about them as people to be safe, we

975
00:59:49,700 --> 00:59:53,460
care to thrive in this job, we care about the community.

976
00:59:53,460 --> 00:59:57,540
We have to have that expectation, that high bar, because it does.

977
00:59:57,540 --> 00:59:58,680
It creates a buzz.

978
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,660
It's like, hey, Renton's not messing around.

979
01:00:00,660 --> 01:00:03,340
It's a great department, but you're going to have to work harder.

980
01:00:03,340 --> 01:00:06,260
Now, this department over here will take you as you are.

981
01:00:06,260 --> 01:00:08,540
You know, you can go, I think you're right.

982
01:00:08,540 --> 01:00:10,080
There's something to that.

983
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:16,620
And I'd like to somehow show that with data on, you know, those departments that have

984
01:00:16,620 --> 01:00:22,060
higher than average standards, what the recruitment retention is like.

985
01:00:22,060 --> 01:00:23,340
I'd like to see that.

986
01:00:23,340 --> 01:00:25,340
So that's, I didn't know that about Anaheim.

987
01:00:25,340 --> 01:00:26,340
Thank you for sharing.

988
01:00:26,340 --> 01:00:29,540
Well, what's interesting too, when I think back to that, and I've had this conversation

989
01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:35,420
with a few people now, when there was 30 positions available, something like that, when I tested.

990
01:00:35,420 --> 01:00:38,980
So out of a thousand plus people, 30 got the job.

991
01:00:38,980 --> 01:00:43,180
So when I hear recruitment conversations like, well, we're still hiring.

992
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:46,340
It's like, well, are you still hiring the same kinds of people?

993
01:00:46,340 --> 01:00:49,100
Or have you just got bodies in your seats now?

994
01:00:49,100 --> 01:00:52,260
Because that also needs to be part of this recruitment conversation.

995
01:00:52,260 --> 01:00:55,900
You've got those phenomenal firefighters, but have you got some of those people, like

996
01:00:55,900 --> 01:01:00,620
you said, whose heart isn't in it, who may even be detrimental to your department five,

997
01:01:00,620 --> 01:01:02,620
10 years from now?

998
01:01:02,620 --> 01:01:03,620
Yeah.

999
01:01:03,620 --> 01:01:10,340
And that's it, and you could have a shining star that was able to do well in the academy.

1000
01:01:10,340 --> 01:01:17,740
But once they start hitting the streets and they start working the shift by shift, their

1001
01:01:17,740 --> 01:01:19,620
motivation for some reason lacks.

1002
01:01:19,620 --> 01:01:23,700
They think, okay, well, I'm actually, I don't like to clean toilets in the station, or I

1003
01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:25,540
don't like to just run EMS calls.

1004
01:01:25,540 --> 01:01:26,540
Where's all the fire?

1005
01:01:26,540 --> 01:01:29,340
And they're running out.

1006
01:01:29,340 --> 01:01:31,580
We have what's called a JATC program.

1007
01:01:31,580 --> 01:01:36,620
Are you familiar with the journeyman apprentice program?

1008
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:38,740
I don't think I'm familiar with that one specifically.

1009
01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:41,460
Yeah, it's a three year program.

1010
01:01:41,460 --> 01:01:46,260
So they're still, they just don't have a one year probation.

1011
01:01:46,260 --> 01:01:51,540
It's a program that makes sure that they keep learning.

1012
01:01:51,540 --> 01:01:55,820
That's going to be slow to hire and quick to fire.

1013
01:01:55,820 --> 01:01:57,660
That's a business aspect.

1014
01:01:57,660 --> 01:02:03,140
We like to call ourselves family in the fire department, but would you really fire family?

1015
01:02:03,140 --> 01:02:08,300
You know, I get, I care about our firefighters, but we have a responsibility to each other

1016
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:14,280
and to the community that we have to be quick to fire and have this down.

1017
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,580
We were horrible at letting people go.

1018
01:02:17,580 --> 01:02:21,300
And so what happens, I don't think it was fair to that person that was struggling.

1019
01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:24,860
They struggled for 30 years and no one wanted to work with them.

1020
01:02:24,860 --> 01:02:26,820
They put them out at the slowest station.

1021
01:02:26,820 --> 01:02:28,380
Oh, that's the slow station.

1022
01:02:28,380 --> 01:02:29,460
That's where you put the people.

1023
01:02:29,460 --> 01:02:31,420
We can't do that anymore.

1024
01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:32,420
We just can't.

1025
01:02:32,420 --> 01:02:36,260
Everyone needs to be held because I think that it really impacts everyone.

1026
01:02:36,260 --> 01:02:39,220
Everyone feels like they have to work around that person.

1027
01:02:39,220 --> 01:02:41,140
You're doing them no favors.

1028
01:02:41,140 --> 01:02:48,480
So have a good, more than just a probation period, have, we've got that apprentice period

1029
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,580
of three years where they're constantly being written test and practical.

1030
01:02:52,580 --> 01:02:55,900
They're still being evaluated by their officers.

1031
01:02:55,900 --> 01:03:00,340
They still need to continue to grow and be invested in this job.

1032
01:03:00,340 --> 01:03:01,340
I love it.

1033
01:03:01,340 --> 01:03:05,220
Well, speaking of the business, because I heard, you know, that there's certain schools

1034
01:03:05,220 --> 01:03:07,420
of thought in the fire service that it is a business.

1035
01:03:07,420 --> 01:03:09,600
And, you know, I don't think that we are a business.

1036
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,700
I think sometimes I guess misinterpreted.

1037
01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:15,180
However, I've had this conversation a few times now.

1038
01:03:15,180 --> 01:03:21,660
If you look at the progressive corporations, they are actually reducing their workweek.

1039
01:03:21,660 --> 01:03:25,580
So Google and some of these other ones, you know, did pilot programs and they saw that

1040
01:03:25,580 --> 01:03:31,020
their employees were as if not more efficient and productive on the four, nine hour, you

1041
01:03:31,020 --> 01:03:35,620
know, nine hours with a lunch workday than they were with the five.

1042
01:03:35,620 --> 01:03:40,460
Conversely, the men and women in uniform that protects their community for 24 hours at a

1043
01:03:40,460 --> 01:03:45,420
time and get out of a dead sleep and run into a burning building to find someone's child

1044
01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:48,660
works 56 hours a week on average in the U.S.

1045
01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:51,740
So we obviously are ignoring that part of the industry.

1046
01:03:51,740 --> 01:03:57,180
And if you had an economist look at our budgets, they immediately would say, well, look at

1047
01:03:57,180 --> 01:04:02,220
this money over here, the overtime covering all your vacancies, the workman's comp fees,

1048
01:04:02,220 --> 01:04:06,940
the medical retirements, you know, the lawsuits when we make mistakes because we're so tired

1049
01:04:06,940 --> 01:04:12,260
that you're so, you know, take this money over here and hire more people, give them

1050
01:04:12,260 --> 01:04:13,260
more time off.

1051
01:04:13,260 --> 01:04:18,460
So as you've, you know, alluded to earlier, the 24 72 is being the national standard is

1052
01:04:18,460 --> 01:04:23,340
something the drum that I'm beating from my my hill over next to you.

1053
01:04:23,340 --> 01:04:29,060
So what is your kind of perception on on the way that we've viewed our workweek for so

1054
01:04:29,060 --> 01:04:31,820
long and again, king for a day?

1055
01:04:31,820 --> 01:04:35,920
What would we have in this country?

1056
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:38,700
So just give you a little background here in Renton.

1057
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:44,560
We have a four platoon system that is one on two off one on four off.

1058
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:51,620
So we it's it's a it's about a 46 hour workweek, but you also have what's called a debit day.

1059
01:04:51,620 --> 01:04:55,420
And like I mentioned, we're paid well here.

1060
01:04:55,420 --> 01:04:59,260
They they want to be compensated to be able to even live in the area.

1061
01:04:59,260 --> 01:05:04,980
Most of our firefighters live a few hours away sometimes.

1062
01:05:04,980 --> 01:05:06,600
I'm sure it was in California.

1063
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:11,780
You know that buying a home in your response area is just really difficult.

1064
01:05:11,780 --> 01:05:16,740
So they do they want they want to have enough money to at least raise a family and live

1065
01:05:16,740 --> 01:05:19,160
where they can to be able to come into work.

1066
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:22,440
But they're wanting more and more less over time.

1067
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,640
They want more time off.

1068
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,460
And that should be one of those indicator lights.

1069
01:05:27,460 --> 01:05:32,140
So we do a 46 hour workweek.

1070
01:05:32,140 --> 01:05:38,500
I would like to that's something we'll negotiate actually work towards reducing that.

1071
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:41,620
Explore the the one on 72 off.

1072
01:05:41,620 --> 01:05:43,860
How would that work with a with a four platoon?

1073
01:05:43,860 --> 01:05:48,660
It's really just math and making sure we've got coverage.

1074
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:56,520
I how can we not if we're doing more calls, more training and our folks are being squeezed,

1075
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:02,940
how do we not look at having a different you know, that is one thing we can control.

1076
01:06:02,940 --> 01:06:07,260
Again, I they could they could develop a lot of different 911 systems.

1077
01:06:07,260 --> 01:06:12,220
Our 911 system still is the funnel and calls keep increasing.

1078
01:06:12,220 --> 01:06:15,520
I can't control who calls 911 for what.

1079
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:20,100
Only thing I can control is how maybe schedule is one of those.

1080
01:06:20,100 --> 01:06:22,740
But I would like to explore that actually.

1081
01:06:22,740 --> 01:06:24,260
I'm open to it.

1082
01:06:24,260 --> 01:06:31,820
We it's hard to do studies on this because over time has been so prevalent these last

1083
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:34,300
five years post covid.

1084
01:06:34,300 --> 01:06:39,100
I think now we're finally getting people hired and the retirement has slowed down a little

1085
01:06:39,100 --> 01:06:45,140
bit where we could actually do a study and really see how people are recovering on their

1086
01:06:45,140 --> 01:06:50,140
second days off because that's again go back to the miles on vehicles.

1087
01:06:50,140 --> 01:06:53,220
It doesn't matter if you're running the engine in the day or the night.

1088
01:06:53,220 --> 01:06:54,780
It's still mileage.

1089
01:06:54,780 --> 01:06:58,280
And I even had another chief who I respect a lot.

1090
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,500
And I said, hey, I can't believe we just ran 25,000 calls.

1091
01:07:02,500 --> 01:07:04,400
He goes, whoa, you should be proud of that.

1092
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:05,400
Your folks are busy.

1093
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,860
I'm like, I'm not proud of it because if we were doing great fire prevention, great community

1094
01:07:10,860 --> 01:07:14,660
health prevention, should those numbers be going up or down?

1095
01:07:14,660 --> 01:07:16,400
Should be going down.

1096
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,460
I'm not proud of this number, but I do realize it keeps increasing.

1097
01:07:20,460 --> 01:07:24,140
He goes, well, a lot of those calls are just bullshit calls.

1098
01:07:24,140 --> 01:07:25,140
You know what I mean?

1099
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:26,140
Just like a lift to sift.

1100
01:07:26,140 --> 01:07:27,140
That's bullshit.

1101
01:07:27,140 --> 01:07:28,140
That doesn't count.

1102
01:07:28,140 --> 01:07:31,580
I go, OK, let's run through a bullshit call right now.

1103
01:07:31,580 --> 01:07:34,620
At 2 in the morning, you get the tones hit.

1104
01:07:34,620 --> 01:07:38,400
So you go from a resting heart rate of 48 to 100.

1105
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,500
That's an exposure.

1106
01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:41,500
You go down.

1107
01:07:41,500 --> 01:07:42,860
Now you hear it's a lift assist.

1108
01:07:42,860 --> 01:07:43,860
It's going to be code yellow.

1109
01:07:43,860 --> 01:07:45,180
You still get in the rig.

1110
01:07:45,180 --> 01:07:46,820
You drive out at 2 AM.

1111
01:07:46,820 --> 01:07:49,380
What tends to close at 2 AM?

1112
01:07:49,380 --> 01:07:50,460
The bars.

1113
01:07:50,460 --> 01:07:56,060
So there's a risk of hitting something, being awake enough to drive this $1 million apparatus,

1114
01:07:56,060 --> 01:07:58,120
being hit by a drunk driver.

1115
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:59,580
That's an exposure.

1116
01:07:59,580 --> 01:08:00,580
You get to the call.

1117
01:08:00,580 --> 01:08:05,660
Yeah, it's a 280 pound person that fell off the commode and needs to be lifted back to

1118
01:08:05,660 --> 01:08:07,540
bed.

1119
01:08:07,540 --> 01:08:09,240
You could wrench your back.

1120
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,220
You could shoulders, knee.

1121
01:08:11,220 --> 01:08:12,440
That's an exposure.

1122
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,340
Now you got to drive back and it's now 2 45.

1123
01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:19,940
You think about going to bed, but you've been so awake because you had to drive back and

1124
01:08:19,940 --> 01:08:22,440
you can't get back to sleep.

1125
01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:23,940
That's another exposure.

1126
01:08:23,940 --> 01:08:30,380
We're looking at lack of sleep like a carcinogen, which I've got a whole thing on cancer and

1127
01:08:30,380 --> 01:08:33,060
PTSD combination.

1128
01:08:33,060 --> 01:08:36,180
We've gotten to the point where we're thinking of cancer resilience.

1129
01:08:36,180 --> 01:08:38,400
We got to think the same thing with post-traumatic stress.

1130
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:40,620
So those are all exposures.

1131
01:08:40,620 --> 01:08:41,820
Those are miles on people.

1132
01:08:41,820 --> 01:08:44,980
So we have to, the data is there.

1133
01:08:44,980 --> 01:08:50,300
Chiefs need to look at their data and be able to say, we are pinching our people.

1134
01:08:50,300 --> 01:08:54,020
The only thing we can control is maybe their time off.

1135
01:08:54,020 --> 01:08:58,300
Of course they want more money, but are they going to really thank you after a few months?

1136
01:08:58,300 --> 01:09:01,900
It's just going to get washed in with their general budget at home.

1137
01:09:01,900 --> 01:09:05,060
But time off is something that's time with your kids.

1138
01:09:05,060 --> 01:09:09,420
Maybe you go on that rock climbing trip or that mountain biking because you have that

1139
01:09:09,420 --> 01:09:10,540
time off.

1140
01:09:10,540 --> 01:09:11,540
Wow.

1141
01:09:11,540 --> 01:09:15,220
I'm thinking the long game.

1142
01:09:15,220 --> 01:09:20,820
Are these Gen Z folks really going to do 30 years if we keep increasing calls?

1143
01:09:20,820 --> 01:09:22,700
What's it going to look like in 10 years?

1144
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:27,140
How do we invest in them now to make sure that they're enjoying this work?

1145
01:09:27,140 --> 01:09:28,140
What can we control?

1146
01:09:28,140 --> 01:09:30,700
So that's my opinion on the work week.

1147
01:09:30,700 --> 01:09:37,900
I think we have it good right now, but we have debit days to fill in with that schedule.

1148
01:09:37,900 --> 01:09:42,260
I bet you they're going to come in and just say, hey, can we remove a few of these days?

1149
01:09:42,260 --> 01:09:46,820
We'll probably move that direction instead of bigger increases in money.

1150
01:09:46,820 --> 01:09:49,460
More time instead of more money, probably be the focus.

1151
01:09:49,460 --> 01:09:54,860
Well, I mean, if you ask people to truly take a step back and reflect what their ultimate

1152
01:09:54,860 --> 01:09:57,380
currency is, it's going to be time with their family.

1153
01:09:57,380 --> 01:09:59,620
And if you ask the family, it would be exactly the same thing.

1154
01:09:59,620 --> 01:10:01,060
I'm going to give you a perfect example.

1155
01:10:01,060 --> 01:10:07,060
I had two firefighter spouses on the show a few months ago, and one of them said that

1156
01:10:07,060 --> 01:10:11,100
when her son was really young, he was all eaten up about the fire service.

1157
01:10:11,100 --> 01:10:14,700
He had the toys, he had the uniform, he had the costume.

1158
01:10:14,700 --> 01:10:18,380
And then now he was kind of a 14, 15 year old kid.

1159
01:10:18,380 --> 01:10:21,180
And they asked him and he was like, absolutely not.

1160
01:10:21,180 --> 01:10:22,500
I'm never going to be a firefighter.

1161
01:10:22,500 --> 01:10:23,940
And they were like, why?

1162
01:10:23,940 --> 01:10:26,100
And he said, because dad's never home.

1163
01:10:26,100 --> 01:10:27,100
No.

1164
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:28,100
I'm not worried about fire.

1165
01:10:28,100 --> 01:10:32,500
No, I don't want to see horrible stuff, but because dad is never home.

1166
01:10:32,500 --> 01:10:34,660
And I think that sums it up perfectly.

1167
01:10:34,660 --> 01:10:36,540
That is the ultimate currency.

1168
01:10:36,540 --> 01:10:42,100
And if you look at mental health, the massive part that no one talks about is sleep deprivation.

1169
01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:48,460
If you look at cancer, the resilience of the human being against these tumors even stym,

1170
01:10:48,460 --> 01:10:53,340
sleep deprivation is a massive part and is classified as a carcinogen by the WHO.

1171
01:10:53,340 --> 01:10:55,980
So and then even with the studies, there are no studies.

1172
01:10:55,980 --> 01:11:00,100
I tell people, I just actually published a kind of, it was more of a think tank with

1173
01:11:00,100 --> 01:11:03,820
some amazing minds that work with NASA and the Navy SEALs.

1174
01:11:03,820 --> 01:11:08,020
And we did a weekend and luckily I was part of that.

1175
01:11:08,020 --> 01:11:13,140
And they, after taking the gloves off and really having to be quite aggressive in this

1176
01:11:13,140 --> 01:11:18,460
room to get people to kind of understand the magnitude of the shift work, at the end of

1177
01:11:18,460 --> 01:11:22,660
this session, it was number one on their list, moved towards 2472.

1178
01:11:22,660 --> 01:11:27,780
And this is after the county that where I live, it had two suicides in 12 weeks and

1179
01:11:27,780 --> 01:11:30,620
they were both guys either side of 30 years old.

1180
01:11:30,620 --> 01:11:35,040
So this is the issue, but there's been rumors of, well, because we've got a neighboring

1181
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:36,900
department that's going to 2472.

1182
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:39,580
Well maybe we'll just sit and watch them and see how it goes.

1183
01:11:39,580 --> 01:11:41,820
They're going to it in 2026.

1184
01:11:41,820 --> 01:11:46,580
So you've lowered your firefighters into the ground and you're going to sit and wait for

1185
01:11:46,580 --> 01:11:52,620
research or observe some other department for years before you grow a set and actually

1186
01:11:52,620 --> 01:11:54,060
enact change yourself.

1187
01:11:54,060 --> 01:11:55,380
I disagree.

1188
01:11:55,380 --> 01:11:59,300
And if you really want research, the Navy have an amazing research.

1189
01:11:59,300 --> 01:12:01,580
Dr. John Cordell has been on the show.

1190
01:12:01,580 --> 01:12:05,500
When they crashed battleships, they were like, oh shit, maybe we should look at sleep.

1191
01:12:05,500 --> 01:12:10,220
And they did, you know, the Rangers, I mean, the Green Berets, the people that were actually

1192
01:12:10,220 --> 01:12:14,880
going, you know, running the selection were driving off mountains from sleep deprivation

1193
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:16,780
on their way home to their families.

1194
01:12:16,780 --> 01:12:20,300
So the army have sleep, you know, and I've had Alison Breger talking about that.

1195
01:12:20,300 --> 01:12:24,260
Richard Marquall for the Navy, Kirk Parsley from the Navy SEALs.

1196
01:12:24,260 --> 01:12:27,020
I've had people from the sporting community.

1197
01:12:27,020 --> 01:12:29,820
So every other profession has research.

1198
01:12:29,820 --> 01:12:34,000
The aviation, the trucking, it's only the fire service that's turned their back on the

1199
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,820
idea of sleep and shift work being an issue.

1200
01:12:36,820 --> 01:12:40,860
So this is what I would say to everyone is think about the common sense.

1201
01:12:40,860 --> 01:12:44,060
The more rest and recovery we have, the healthier our people.

1202
01:12:44,060 --> 01:12:47,380
You do not need to go into a lab to prove that theory.

1203
01:12:47,380 --> 01:12:55,420
Well said, and there is one study I'd love to share with you from Portland Fire in Oregon.

1204
01:12:55,420 --> 01:13:00,820
They did shift schedules and sleep studies and they were able to show their worst night

1205
01:13:00,820 --> 01:13:07,840
of sleep was the night before they went on shift, which I thought was fascinating.

1206
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:13,040
But also they talked about, you know, the three hour, two hour commute after work, how

1207
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,620
they, some of them had to pull off and sleep.

1208
01:13:15,620 --> 01:13:20,860
So it's, it is a really interesting thing of how they can reset their minds.

1209
01:13:20,860 --> 01:13:23,700
And I've 35 years, I'm still not a great sleeper.

1210
01:13:23,700 --> 01:13:30,140
I am trying to tap into every book on insomnia, Matthew Walker and everything I can, why we

1211
01:13:30,140 --> 01:13:31,820
sleep.

1212
01:13:31,820 --> 01:13:37,500
Because our body, we get very activated and that's, it's at the neurogenic level.

1213
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:38,940
It's not just because I'm anxious.

1214
01:13:38,940 --> 01:13:41,280
No, it fires with our nerves.

1215
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,780
So we can create things really difficult in our bodies.

1216
01:13:44,780 --> 01:13:50,180
And again, we're losing that control of just caring for our people at work.

1217
01:13:50,180 --> 01:13:55,180
It's time to focus on their time off work and by giving them some time, not just giving

1218
01:13:55,180 --> 01:14:00,700
them, Hey, I've got you some time off because for some people that really feel purpose and

1219
01:14:00,700 --> 01:14:04,420
they're bonded with their crew because they are in a poor relationship, things are not

1220
01:14:04,420 --> 01:14:05,700
well at home.

1221
01:14:05,700 --> 01:14:09,040
They're suffering from alcohol addiction.

1222
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,140
When they're at work, they have purpose.

1223
01:14:11,140 --> 01:14:14,400
They're away from alcohol and they're with their tribe.

1224
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:20,100
So we don't want to just band-aid this and just focus on one thing.

1225
01:14:20,100 --> 01:14:26,260
And that's why our consultant helped us understand the eight dimensions of wellbeing.

1226
01:14:26,260 --> 01:14:31,340
It's spiritual, it's financial, it's social, it's nutrition and health.

1227
01:14:31,340 --> 01:14:33,060
It is all these things.

1228
01:14:33,060 --> 01:14:36,540
Take a holistic look at your firefighters.

1229
01:14:36,540 --> 01:14:41,620
Don't just because I go to a conference and grab one thing and say, Hey, I bought this

1230
01:14:41,620 --> 01:14:42,620
for you.

1231
01:14:42,620 --> 01:14:44,220
Listen to your people.

1232
01:14:44,220 --> 01:14:48,180
Another great aspect about Gen Z, they are hyper fit.

1233
01:14:48,180 --> 01:14:49,180
Wow.

1234
01:14:49,180 --> 01:14:53,340
We've got some amazing and we're supporting it by having good workout facilities.

1235
01:14:53,340 --> 01:14:59,740
We, I meant, I mentioned, we do an annual, what's called a fitness incentive.

1236
01:14:59,740 --> 01:15:00,860
It was, it's crazy.

1237
01:15:00,860 --> 01:15:06,500
So I've, I paid for yoga instructors to come into the fire station to actually help teach

1238
01:15:06,500 --> 01:15:10,060
proper stretching and just little workouts.

1239
01:15:10,060 --> 01:15:15,600
And if they participated, they got paid an incentive to do it while they're at work.

1240
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,260
So it's on work time.

1241
01:15:17,260 --> 01:15:18,380
We paid for the yoga.

1242
01:15:18,380 --> 01:15:21,180
We paid them to do it.

1243
01:15:21,180 --> 01:15:22,300
That's investing.

1244
01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:24,180
And that's that they could even do it.

1245
01:15:24,180 --> 01:15:28,060
A lot of them end up signing up for yoga because of that.

1246
01:15:28,060 --> 01:15:30,920
This year we did what's called defensive tactics.

1247
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:36,600
We got our police involved because I mentioned if homelessness, behavioral health and substance

1248
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:42,500
use is on the rise, violence follows that and it's on the rise also.

1249
01:15:42,500 --> 01:15:47,500
So we have people that they think that you're, they see your face and they think you're,

1250
01:15:47,500 --> 01:15:50,740
you know, another person that they want to hurt.

1251
01:15:50,740 --> 01:15:53,140
So we've had violence against firefighters.

1252
01:15:53,140 --> 01:15:54,920
What are people doing with that?

1253
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:59,900
So I had our police officers talk about body positioning, awareness, how to get out of

1254
01:15:59,900 --> 01:16:00,900
there.

1255
01:16:00,900 --> 01:16:06,500
And then I thought this was going to be kind of a simple class, but we created our own

1256
01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:07,500
people.

1257
01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:13,740
I found out that we have 10 people, men and women who do or very active in the jujitsu

1258
01:16:13,740 --> 01:16:15,620
community.

1259
01:16:15,620 --> 01:16:19,000
And they said, Chuck, can we please talk about when someone grabbed your arm, just had to

1260
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,000
free yourself.

1261
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,140
And I said, that's a great idea.

1262
01:16:22,140 --> 01:16:24,700
Yeah, go, go work with the police officer, get some of the basic.

1263
01:16:24,700 --> 01:16:30,380
We created this train the trainer and we had our first, they had mats out and they're doing

1264
01:16:30,380 --> 01:16:32,780
grabs, holds, escapes.

1265
01:16:32,780 --> 01:16:35,740
I never saw so much smiling, laughing.

1266
01:16:35,740 --> 01:16:40,420
They learned a powerful skill at work to keep them safe that they can take home and they

1267
01:16:40,420 --> 01:16:42,940
were paid extra for it.

1268
01:16:42,940 --> 01:16:44,620
It was their idea.

1269
01:16:44,620 --> 01:16:48,140
So it's little things like that, that we can invest in them.

1270
01:16:48,140 --> 01:16:51,180
But I can get you that Portland study if you'd like.

1271
01:16:51,180 --> 01:16:58,780
I'm also working with Dr. Gina Poe at a Stanford who is a sleep specialist.

1272
01:16:58,780 --> 01:17:00,260
We're trying to combine this effort.

1273
01:17:00,260 --> 01:17:04,380
If you want to, I'd love, I can LinkedIn, maybe I can get you hooked up.

1274
01:17:04,380 --> 01:17:06,660
She's brilliant.

1275
01:17:06,660 --> 01:17:13,180
And I would really like to, again, stop talking about the loss of sleep and now how damaging

1276
01:17:13,180 --> 01:17:16,660
it is and start getting towards solutions.

1277
01:17:16,660 --> 01:17:22,700
Not just on time off, but when they're in their time off, helping them with sleep hygiene

1278
01:17:22,700 --> 01:17:26,340
and things to do on their own and supporting them in that.

1279
01:17:26,340 --> 01:17:27,340
Absolutely.

1280
01:17:27,340 --> 01:17:28,340
Yeah.

1281
01:17:28,340 --> 01:17:31,980
It's interesting when the sleep conversations comes up, normally it's kind of them and us

1282
01:17:31,980 --> 01:17:34,220
kind of, you know, it's the job.

1283
01:17:34,220 --> 01:17:37,460
Or it's a lot of the chief office as well.

1284
01:17:37,460 --> 01:17:39,540
You know, they're not sleeping at home.

1285
01:17:39,540 --> 01:17:42,420
And if we gave them more time off, they just work more.

1286
01:17:42,420 --> 01:17:45,740
You know, very, very kind of ignorant statements really.

1287
01:17:45,740 --> 01:17:48,620
But the answer is always both in most of these problems.

1288
01:17:48,620 --> 01:17:49,620
Yes and yes.

1289
01:17:49,620 --> 01:17:52,980
Yes, it's the environment and yes, it's the ownership of the individual.

1290
01:17:52,980 --> 01:17:58,140
But if you improve the environment, then what happens to the ownership, it becomes stronger.

1291
01:17:58,140 --> 01:18:03,700
So if you can teach sleep hygiene and understand room temperatures and screen use and blue

1292
01:18:03,700 --> 01:18:09,020
blocking glasses and, you know, a down regulation stretch or meditation before bed and some

1293
01:18:09,020 --> 01:18:10,340
of these things that really work.

1294
01:18:10,340 --> 01:18:15,920
And then you couple it with a work week that actually sets these men and women up for success.

1295
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,060
Now you've truly addressed the issue.

1296
01:18:18,060 --> 01:18:19,060
Yeah.

1297
01:18:19,060 --> 01:18:20,060
Yeah.

1298
01:18:20,060 --> 01:18:21,060
Yeah.

1299
01:18:21,060 --> 01:18:24,580
If it's keep getting busier, they're not going to sleep here.

1300
01:18:24,580 --> 01:18:28,260
And we have, you know, I'm still just it's called the NASA nap.

1301
01:18:28,260 --> 01:18:33,620
Have you worked with it with astronauts do and it's little breaks throughout the day?

1302
01:18:33,620 --> 01:18:39,460
Which is, you know, if if if a battalion chief came in and somebody was taking a nap around,

1303
01:18:39,460 --> 01:18:43,700
you know, 11 or 3 p.m., we would used to get in so much trouble.

1304
01:18:43,700 --> 01:18:47,160
You had to be just on the edge all the time.

1305
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:49,420
And now where it's like, we know you're going to go to the call.

1306
01:18:49,420 --> 01:18:52,440
We know you're going to go to the training, the community event.

1307
01:18:52,440 --> 01:18:56,620
If you need to sleep, sleep, damn it, sleep now.

1308
01:18:56,620 --> 01:19:01,500
You know, get get some sleep and here's some great ways where we even created a room.

1309
01:19:01,500 --> 01:19:03,480
And again, our folks are amazing.

1310
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:07,860
They're creating a space that's comfortable for them.

1311
01:19:07,860 --> 01:19:09,780
And they have art on the wall.

1312
01:19:09,780 --> 01:19:14,380
One room is is all lamps and you like the leg lamp from Christmas story.

1313
01:19:14,380 --> 01:19:18,060
And they have all these lamps and they do music in these.

1314
01:19:18,060 --> 01:19:20,360
And they're they're doing this on their own.

1315
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:21,360
And I want that ownership.

1316
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,020
It's like, hey, this is our distress room check.

1317
01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:25,400
And I'm like, perfect.

1318
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:30,420
Maybe we'll get to those pods you see in Google, you know, in those companies, the high tech

1319
01:19:30,420 --> 01:19:37,540
companies that they do these light, sound, you know, temperature controlled pods, you

1320
01:19:37,540 --> 01:19:40,300
know, they're going to go to a call.

1321
01:19:40,300 --> 01:19:42,100
I'm not worried about that.

1322
01:19:42,100 --> 01:19:46,760
I'm worried about if they can learn breathing to slow themselves out.

1323
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:50,620
I don't like our folks for 24 hours being on the edge.

1324
01:19:50,620 --> 01:19:51,980
That's cortisol.

1325
01:19:51,980 --> 01:19:56,940
You know, look at the hormones that are happening with this, what that does to the heart.

1326
01:19:56,940 --> 01:19:59,780
I mean, it is a full system impact.

1327
01:19:59,780 --> 01:20:01,540
So I love I love technology.

1328
01:20:01,540 --> 01:20:04,220
I love looking at how we can do this.

1329
01:20:04,220 --> 01:20:12,900
There is an app called Newcom and you see a L.M. and the origin story is about 30, 35

1330
01:20:12,900 --> 01:20:13,900
years ago.

1331
01:20:13,900 --> 01:20:18,180
Apparently, we have one of the most intelligent scientists we've ever had in the history of

1332
01:20:18,180 --> 01:20:19,780
America, at least.

1333
01:20:19,780 --> 01:20:23,420
And the CEO of this company has described him like if you had a room of the world's

1334
01:20:23,420 --> 01:20:25,800
greatest minds, he was smarter than all of them.

1335
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:33,380
So three decades ago, he started working on trying to measure the frequency that the brain

1336
01:20:33,380 --> 01:20:37,680
would be in in certain mood states everywhere from kind of, you know, what they call flow

1337
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,740
state, deep sleep all the way through to acute focus.

1338
01:20:42,740 --> 01:20:45,120
And then they developed this machine.

1339
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,060
So he was able he kind of figured out the frequencies and then was able to figure out

1340
01:20:49,060 --> 01:20:53,860
how to actually activate the brain to go into some of these mood spaces.

1341
01:20:53,860 --> 01:20:58,980
And it was a big six thousand dollar machine that was in NASA, was in some of the NFL team

1342
01:20:58,980 --> 01:20:59,980
rooms.

1343
01:20:59,980 --> 01:21:04,620
It was in the I think DevGru the SEAL Team Six room.

1344
01:21:04,620 --> 01:21:10,220
And what happened was the evolution of smartphones got to the point where that massive machine

1345
01:21:10,220 --> 01:21:12,580
could be put into a smartphone.

1346
01:21:12,580 --> 01:21:17,060
So all you do, you put on a sleep mask and headphones and you lie there.

1347
01:21:17,060 --> 01:21:18,860
The power nap one is only 20 minutes.

1348
01:21:18,860 --> 01:21:22,180
And then there's what's called restore, which is 30 minutes all the way through to a couple

1349
01:21:22,180 --> 01:21:24,060
of hours if you wanted to.

1350
01:21:24,060 --> 01:21:27,940
And then conversely, they have one I use when I'm writing my book or did when I had monkey

1351
01:21:27,940 --> 01:21:33,180
mind called Focus, where it's kind of up regulating a little bit.

1352
01:21:33,180 --> 01:21:34,340
Absolutely incredible.

1353
01:21:34,340 --> 01:21:37,060
And you wouldn't even need to have a part or a room or anything.

1354
01:21:37,060 --> 01:21:40,060
You just need to have one person assigned from your crew to be like, hey, if we get

1355
01:21:40,060 --> 01:21:44,060
a call, you know, come come shake me because I'm going to be in my in my headphones and

1356
01:21:44,060 --> 01:21:45,260
my mask.

1357
01:21:45,260 --> 01:21:50,740
I think even if you're not doing it on shift, if you did that, the 20 minute power nap before

1358
01:21:50,740 --> 01:21:56,460
you get in your car and go home by the lazy boy, even in the car, you know, that gives

1359
01:21:56,460 --> 01:21:58,520
you equivalent of a couple hours of sleep.

1360
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,260
But it's also down regulating your nervous system.

1361
01:22:01,260 --> 01:22:06,140
I can tell you, I don't shout from the rooftops about much foundation training is phenomenal.

1362
01:22:06,140 --> 01:22:09,540
But you know, for my back health, thorn supplements are amazing.

1363
01:22:09,540 --> 01:22:10,540
But this is the other one.

1364
01:22:10,540 --> 01:22:11,540
Newcom.

1365
01:22:11,540 --> 01:22:12,540
I've done meditation.

1366
01:22:12,540 --> 01:22:16,300
I love headspace, but Newcom is an entire different technology.

1367
01:22:16,300 --> 01:22:19,500
And I can't highly enough about it.

1368
01:22:19,500 --> 01:22:26,660
Oh, well, and and also I'm curious about and I wanted to ask you, have you explored VR

1369
01:22:26,660 --> 01:22:32,900
technology where again, it's that neural connection where they put this the goggles on and they've

1370
01:22:32,900 --> 01:22:35,580
got some movement with their hands.

1371
01:22:35,580 --> 01:22:40,220
But they're trying to in this they're trying to achieve an objective and what that does

1372
01:22:40,220 --> 01:22:44,980
with the mind and it connects it to have this person sit down or something calm.

1373
01:22:44,980 --> 01:22:48,780
But what it does to the mind to help them do that.

1374
01:22:48,780 --> 01:22:51,180
Have you worked looked into VR?

1375
01:22:51,180 --> 01:22:52,180
I've heard about it.

1376
01:22:52,180 --> 01:22:53,980
I think I've even been connected with some people.

1377
01:22:53,980 --> 01:22:54,980
It's funny.

1378
01:22:54,980 --> 01:22:57,140
You just reminded me that never went anywhere.

1379
01:22:57,140 --> 01:22:59,580
It's probably something I owe an email to.

1380
01:22:59,580 --> 01:23:02,580
But yeah, and those I mean, all these have applications.

1381
01:23:02,580 --> 01:23:06,980
But I got to say just because the thing is, for me, I was never able to nap in the fire

1382
01:23:06,980 --> 01:23:11,260
station like, you know, all the guys would be out on the lazy boy, you know, after a

1383
01:23:11,260 --> 01:23:13,220
meal if we weren't getting calls.

1384
01:23:13,220 --> 01:23:14,540
And I'd just be walking around the station.

1385
01:23:14,540 --> 01:23:15,700
I'm just, you know.

1386
01:23:15,700 --> 01:23:21,620
So this for me was a way of saying at, you know, 8 a.m., I will be taking a nap for 20

1387
01:23:21,620 --> 01:23:22,620
minutes.

1388
01:23:22,620 --> 01:23:24,700
And I might be because you're still conscious.

1389
01:23:24,700 --> 01:23:29,140
You'll find yourself as he decides kind of dancing between consciousness and unconsciousness.

1390
01:23:29,140 --> 01:23:31,220
And so I'll snore and wake myself up.

1391
01:23:31,220 --> 01:23:35,900
Now, I guess I was out for a little bit, but it's just a different it's an entirely different

1392
01:23:35,900 --> 01:23:38,020
thing, I think, than all the other technologies.

1393
01:23:38,020 --> 01:23:40,740
So definitely worth checking out.

1394
01:23:40,740 --> 01:23:42,940
I am I'm going to that's exciting.

1395
01:23:42,940 --> 01:23:43,940
I love that stuff.

1396
01:23:43,940 --> 01:23:44,940
All right.

1397
01:23:44,940 --> 01:23:48,860
Well, I want to shift to peer support so we can get on that road, because I know that

1398
01:23:48,860 --> 01:23:53,260
obviously you've got some observations when it comes to to maybe some of the ways that

1399
01:23:53,260 --> 01:24:00,180
we could improve in that area to walk me through the culture of mental health conversations

1400
01:24:00,180 --> 01:24:01,740
from the 80s forward.

1401
01:24:01,740 --> 01:24:07,940
And then were there any highs or lows that you experienced on that journey?

1402
01:24:07,940 --> 01:24:11,940
Like I mentioned in the 80s, we have mentors.

1403
01:24:11,940 --> 01:24:17,420
So when you start in the fire service, some of our most the calls that have stuck with

1404
01:24:17,420 --> 01:24:24,680
us even after 30 years are using those first few, you know, first couple of years of serving.

1405
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:25,980
We weren't that busy.

1406
01:24:25,980 --> 01:24:33,220
But if I don't remember, you know, a lot of those calls, and I know I have had more impactful

1407
01:24:33,220 --> 01:24:38,660
worse calls since then, but your mind is really like a sponge this first few years.

1408
01:24:38,660 --> 01:24:40,420
And so you're taking it all in.

1409
01:24:40,420 --> 01:24:44,620
And when I was doing that, I was watching how others were handling it.

1410
01:24:44,620 --> 01:24:48,780
You know, if there was dark humor, you know, have they, you know, that's something to lose

1411
01:24:48,780 --> 01:24:54,580
your head over, you know, and trying to understand how am I supposed to handle this by watching

1412
01:24:54,580 --> 01:24:55,580
others.

1413
01:24:55,580 --> 01:24:59,740
And again, that was a lot of Vietnam vets to me, which is amazing.

1414
01:24:59,740 --> 01:25:01,580
They served over in this country.

1415
01:25:01,580 --> 01:25:06,060
They weren't sure why they were there sometimes, weren't treated great when they came back

1416
01:25:06,060 --> 01:25:08,420
and then chose to serve more.

1417
01:25:08,420 --> 01:25:09,600
It blows me away.

1418
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:11,340
So different culture.

1419
01:25:11,340 --> 01:25:15,060
It's just like, hey, you're going to see this handle it.

1420
01:25:15,060 --> 01:25:17,540
Alcohol very strong.

1421
01:25:17,540 --> 01:25:20,340
You basically most people say, hey, go to sleep.

1422
01:25:20,340 --> 01:25:24,260
You know, we just have a nightcap at home and, you know, hopefully it wears off by the

1423
01:25:24,260 --> 01:25:27,020
time you come in to work.

1424
01:25:27,020 --> 01:25:30,820
Alcohol was is still today huge, but it was really big back then.

1425
01:25:30,820 --> 01:25:36,440
That was something to celebrate, to calm your nerves, to deal with outside of work.

1426
01:25:36,440 --> 01:25:44,360
So we were thankfully slower back then and we had a lot of calls with purpose that helped,

1427
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:48,060
but to handle trauma, I just, I watched them and a lot of times they did.

1428
01:25:48,060 --> 01:25:50,220
They didn't, nobody saw a therapist.

1429
01:25:50,220 --> 01:25:56,120
That was for, you know, really troubled people that wasn't talked about.

1430
01:25:56,120 --> 01:26:00,400
Most of them, most of them drank and that's, that was, yeah, they drink to forget.

1431
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,180
So that was the culture then.

1432
01:26:03,180 --> 01:26:12,340
Now we're very proactive and I love the idea of getting upstream with, with making space

1433
01:26:12,340 --> 01:26:13,340
for trauma.

1434
01:26:13,340 --> 01:26:14,820
You, you don't get to get rid of it.

1435
01:26:14,820 --> 01:26:18,100
I think that's the fallacy people have.

1436
01:26:18,100 --> 01:26:20,700
It's like, Oh, I've got all these rocks in my backpack.

1437
01:26:20,700 --> 01:26:23,580
I'm going to go see a therapist and start unloading them.

1438
01:26:23,580 --> 01:26:26,940
Actually, that's yours to carry.

1439
01:26:26,940 --> 01:26:32,500
And by the day that they're hired on the onboarding, you start spending time with them.

1440
01:26:32,500 --> 01:26:33,980
You start building resilience.

1441
01:26:33,980 --> 01:26:40,940
You start doing these check-ins and actually training them to make space and connect with

1442
01:26:40,940 --> 01:26:41,940
it.

1443
01:26:41,940 --> 01:26:42,940
You do this.

1444
01:26:42,940 --> 01:26:47,360
We, we have great health coverage right now with dental.

1445
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:52,740
So a lot of us see a dentist twice a year, whether we have a cavity or not.

1446
01:26:52,740 --> 01:26:54,020
Why do we do that?

1447
01:26:54,020 --> 01:26:59,580
Well, because we know a good cleaning, good checkup, some fluoride, that's a good preventative

1448
01:26:59,580 --> 01:27:00,580
thing.

1449
01:27:00,580 --> 01:27:03,900
We've talked to a dentist twice about it, but you tell someone, Hey, do you see, you

1450
01:27:03,900 --> 01:27:05,460
know, have you ever talked to a therapist?

1451
01:27:05,460 --> 01:27:06,740
Oh, I don't need that.

1452
01:27:06,740 --> 01:27:07,740
I'm doing fine.

1453
01:27:07,740 --> 01:27:11,460
Well, you could, why don't you go twice a year, just like you do your teeth.

1454
01:27:11,460 --> 01:27:15,220
And it seems crazy to them, you know, to say, well, what you do the same thing with the

1455
01:27:15,220 --> 01:27:16,220
dentist.

1456
01:27:16,220 --> 01:27:21,240
So we're getting to the point now where they do see it as proactive, where talking to someone

1457
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:27,180
is helpful, where some we on a fire scene, we will do decontamination.

1458
01:27:27,180 --> 01:27:28,700
We'll hose down our gear.

1459
01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:29,700
We'll remove gear.

1460
01:27:29,700 --> 01:27:31,240
We'll bag it up.

1461
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:34,060
How are we doing mental decontamination?

1462
01:27:34,060 --> 01:27:38,020
How do we leave that somehow at work?

1463
01:27:38,020 --> 01:27:43,100
And so when I'm coming home and I don't see something in the sink or something triggers

1464
01:27:43,100 --> 01:27:48,940
me from the night before that I have this reaction, how, how do I do some mental decon

1465
01:27:48,940 --> 01:27:51,140
as I go in?

1466
01:27:51,140 --> 01:27:52,740
They're all for this.

1467
01:27:52,740 --> 01:27:54,780
They want great relationships.

1468
01:27:54,780 --> 01:27:57,980
They want animals, therapy animals in the fire station.

1469
01:27:57,980 --> 01:27:58,980
They want dogs.

1470
01:27:58,980 --> 01:28:04,460
They want, they want happy pills, you know, to be able to pet.

1471
01:28:04,460 --> 01:28:08,060
They want to talk in a proactive way with therapy.

1472
01:28:08,060 --> 01:28:14,300
And so peer support has really evolved this way.

1473
01:28:14,300 --> 01:28:19,940
And peer support started out about 15 years ago and I was, I was on the team.

1474
01:28:19,940 --> 01:28:23,840
I have that, I bit of an empath.

1475
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:31,060
So I care about people and sometimes people seek others out that know that care and that

1476
01:28:31,060 --> 01:28:32,140
will listen.

1477
01:28:32,140 --> 01:28:34,020
They don't always have to provide answers.

1478
01:28:34,020 --> 01:28:37,620
You're just, you're going to be that trusted person who listens.

1479
01:28:37,620 --> 01:28:44,300
And so our early peer support team, once we got organized was led by Chaplin.

1480
01:28:44,300 --> 01:28:48,200
So Chaplin's, are you familiar with Chaplin's?

1481
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:49,200
Did you have them in Anaheim?

1482
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:56,140
I don't remember having them in Anaheim, but Joe Lacognata, I'm probably butchering Joe's

1483
01:28:56,140 --> 01:29:00,300
name, but anyway, the local one here in Marion County is very well known in the country.

1484
01:29:00,300 --> 01:29:02,460
He's an amazing guy.

1485
01:29:02,460 --> 01:29:03,460
Yeah.

1486
01:29:03,460 --> 01:29:04,460
Amazing.

1487
01:29:04,460 --> 01:29:11,260
There's what, when I go to an infant CPR, that is primary trauma to me that I have made

1488
01:29:11,260 --> 01:29:12,660
space for.

1489
01:29:12,660 --> 01:29:17,500
I know I've chosen to be in this situation where it's, you know, I'm going into someone's

1490
01:29:17,500 --> 01:29:18,500
worst day.

1491
01:29:18,500 --> 01:29:21,340
That is awful, but I've made space for that child.

1492
01:29:21,340 --> 01:29:24,820
Even if I do CPR on the infant, they don't make it.

1493
01:29:24,820 --> 01:29:27,500
Awful, but I've made space for this.

1494
01:29:27,500 --> 01:29:33,920
What is really difficult is the young parents who are pulling at me, screaming at me to

1495
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:36,660
save their child that I know has died.

1496
01:29:36,660 --> 01:29:38,120
I can't do that.

1497
01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:42,420
That is secondary trauma and I'm freaking out about that.

1498
01:29:42,420 --> 01:29:44,940
I can't do anything with that.

1499
01:29:44,940 --> 01:29:49,420
Because they're, what they're amazing at is that secondary trauma.

1500
01:29:49,420 --> 01:29:53,060
I've seen a chaplain, she's wonderful, Loretta.

1501
01:29:53,060 --> 01:29:57,040
She'll come in and she just starts hugging the parents.

1502
01:29:57,040 --> 01:30:00,020
And she looks over at me and she goes, you can go.

1503
01:30:00,020 --> 01:30:01,740
And I've never felt so much relief.

1504
01:30:01,740 --> 01:30:03,740
I'm like, okay, okay.

1505
01:30:03,740 --> 01:30:06,360
Now we can go deal with the primary trauma.

1506
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:07,760
She's got that.

1507
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:11,740
So secondary trauma is something to really think about.

1508
01:30:11,740 --> 01:30:18,580
And when we discovered with peer support, when I'm helping a brother or sister firefighter,

1509
01:30:18,580 --> 01:30:23,140
they're struggling at home and they're calling me and they're saying, this is going on.

1510
01:30:23,140 --> 01:30:24,660
That is kind of secondary trauma.

1511
01:30:24,660 --> 01:30:25,660
It's hard.

1512
01:30:25,660 --> 01:30:26,940
It is really hard.

1513
01:30:26,940 --> 01:30:31,460
And so we were mostly working with people in a crisis.

1514
01:30:31,460 --> 01:30:37,300
We were crisis responders, which I'm having crisis response at work and now off duty,

1515
01:30:37,300 --> 01:30:41,020
I'm doing crisis with my own peers.

1516
01:30:41,020 --> 01:30:45,720
We had someone that wasn't in our department and another, the peers were trying to help

1517
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:50,220
another brother or sister firefighter who died by suicide.

1518
01:30:50,220 --> 01:30:55,260
This was some of the worst trauma for them because they felt they failed one of their

1519
01:30:55,260 --> 01:30:56,260
own.

1520
01:30:56,260 --> 01:30:57,340
Horrible.

1521
01:30:57,340 --> 01:30:59,020
So I understand it.

1522
01:30:59,020 --> 01:31:05,060
Peer support was often led by chaplains who are very good at secondary trauma.

1523
01:31:05,060 --> 01:31:06,520
It is difficult for us.

1524
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:13,580
So I know crisis responses, peer support is part of it, but how do we lead our peer support

1525
01:31:13,580 --> 01:31:14,820
is important.

1526
01:31:14,820 --> 01:31:16,460
So this is the difference.

1527
01:31:16,460 --> 01:31:20,340
So what we're doing now, we're doing a few things different, but what we're doing now

1528
01:31:20,340 --> 01:31:24,780
is leading with resiliency with our peer support.

1529
01:31:24,780 --> 01:31:27,940
Peer support right now has had a shelf life.

1530
01:31:27,940 --> 01:31:33,740
If you get on the team, you may make it three years on average and then you're done.

1531
01:31:33,740 --> 01:31:34,740
That's not fair.

1532
01:31:34,740 --> 01:31:35,740
That is not fair.

1533
01:31:35,740 --> 01:31:40,780
I don't mind rotation, but we shouldn't wear people out until they burn out.

1534
01:31:40,780 --> 01:31:41,820
That's not healthy.

1535
01:31:41,820 --> 01:31:42,900
That's not right.

1536
01:31:42,900 --> 01:31:47,540
So what I want is my, I have a peer support team of 24.

1537
01:31:47,540 --> 01:31:54,220
I want them the, some of the best, most well-being mentally fit people we have.

1538
01:31:54,220 --> 01:32:03,760
I'm sending them to rehab, recovery centers, to retreats, not to learn to be a crisis responder,

1539
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:11,340
not to learn about breathing exercises, yoga, nutrition, sleep, relationships, how to handle

1540
01:32:11,340 --> 01:32:12,340
your finances.

1541
01:32:12,340 --> 01:32:17,420
I want them to model resiliency when they come back to the fire station.

1542
01:32:17,420 --> 01:32:20,820
I want people to look at them and it's like, they're doing something right.

1543
01:32:20,820 --> 01:32:22,500
Tell me about it.

1544
01:32:22,500 --> 01:32:23,980
That's how you get your firefighters.

1545
01:32:23,980 --> 01:32:27,820
It's not going to be me as the chief saying, all of you need to sleep better.

1546
01:32:27,820 --> 01:32:29,620
It's going to be from their peers.

1547
01:32:29,620 --> 01:32:31,060
That's who impacts them.

1548
01:32:31,060 --> 01:32:32,420
They listen to each other.

1549
01:32:32,420 --> 01:32:34,020
They're trusted.

1550
01:32:34,020 --> 01:32:35,020
Yeah.

1551
01:32:35,020 --> 01:32:39,860
They think I'm a nice person as a chief, but I'm still a chief and we have HR and what

1552
01:32:39,860 --> 01:32:42,180
are you going to threaten my job and all these things.

1553
01:32:42,180 --> 01:32:43,860
I don't want to know about that.

1554
01:32:43,860 --> 01:32:49,100
Peer support's handling it, but I'm going to support them by giving them all the tools

1555
01:32:49,100 --> 01:32:50,820
to be healthy.

1556
01:32:50,820 --> 01:32:54,220
Now they can make space to handle the other peers.

1557
01:32:54,220 --> 01:32:56,660
So lead and model with resiliency.

1558
01:32:56,660 --> 01:32:57,880
Do that.

1559
01:32:57,880 --> 01:32:58,880
Invest in your peer support.

1560
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:03,060
Because right now it's kind of volunteer for a lot of departments.

1561
01:33:03,060 --> 01:33:04,060
I'm going to pay you.

1562
01:33:04,060 --> 01:33:10,060
If you're doing work for us off duty, that is a huge cost savings to the organization

1563
01:33:10,060 --> 01:33:15,100
because they may get that member who's struggling back to work instead of me hiring for them.

1564
01:33:15,100 --> 01:33:17,020
There's a huge cost savings.

1565
01:33:17,020 --> 01:33:22,580
They may fly them out to the airport to get into a recovery center for alcoholism and

1566
01:33:22,580 --> 01:33:26,260
they may be doing that and they're, I'm going to pay them for that because that is a huge

1567
01:33:26,260 --> 01:33:27,980
cost savings to us.

1568
01:33:27,980 --> 01:33:29,380
And it's about our people.

1569
01:33:29,380 --> 01:33:30,380
You invest in them.

1570
01:33:30,380 --> 01:33:32,860
You tell them, you show them you care.

1571
01:33:32,860 --> 01:33:37,380
And labor will always say, Chuck, if you say you care, show me in the budget where you

1572
01:33:37,380 --> 01:33:38,380
care.

1573
01:33:38,380 --> 01:33:44,380
So as a chief officer with peer support, it's going to be in our vision, mission, values,

1574
01:33:44,380 --> 01:33:46,740
strategic plan.

1575
01:33:46,740 --> 01:33:49,860
Also it's going to be in our policies.

1576
01:33:49,860 --> 01:33:55,460
You have to have your SOPs, your SOGs, they have to have peer support in there because

1577
01:33:55,460 --> 01:33:56,460
that's a legacy.

1578
01:33:56,460 --> 01:34:01,300
So if I'm going to retire at the end of the year, policies will outlive my time here.

1579
01:34:01,300 --> 01:34:03,680
And then last, have it in the budget.

1580
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:05,820
Show that you care, have it in a budget.

1581
01:34:05,820 --> 01:34:07,180
Don't rely on a grant.

1582
01:34:07,180 --> 01:34:12,340
Don't make it a peer support program because I hear the word program and that means it's

1583
01:34:12,340 --> 01:34:14,700
grant funded and it's going to last a year.

1584
01:34:14,700 --> 01:34:16,620
No, this is our service.

1585
01:34:16,620 --> 01:34:17,620
This is our people.

1586
01:34:17,620 --> 01:34:19,720
So it's in the budget.

1587
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:24,500
So those three things, have it in your mission, vision, and values, have policies, have it

1588
01:34:24,500 --> 01:34:25,500
in the budget.

1589
01:34:25,500 --> 01:34:28,940
That's what I can do as a chief because I'm not a peer anymore.

1590
01:34:28,940 --> 01:34:31,660
So we model with resiliency.

1591
01:34:31,660 --> 01:34:36,560
And then what we've done last is that we've operationalized peer support.

1592
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:37,940
This is incredible.

1593
01:34:37,940 --> 01:34:43,320
We had one of the worst accidents, I made national news actually in Renton.

1594
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:47,060
We had a high speed accident.

1595
01:34:47,060 --> 01:34:52,300
Four children died young and it was all teens.

1596
01:34:52,300 --> 01:34:57,900
It was the kid was going over a hundred miles an hour in the middle of the day and hit a

1597
01:34:57,900 --> 01:35:01,280
minivan and it was the worst accident.

1598
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:03,340
So peer support went in.

1599
01:35:03,340 --> 01:35:07,560
We have, you know, we have incident commanders when they're on the scene.

1600
01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:10,720
We made an incident command for peer support.

1601
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:14,720
So right away they took their time because this is a marathon, right?

1602
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:20,180
Our folks are in response mode, but they started assigning and getting facts.

1603
01:35:20,180 --> 01:35:25,740
What we do as when the call is over is that individually our crews can go into what's

1604
01:35:25,740 --> 01:35:27,820
called a decompression break.

1605
01:35:27,820 --> 01:35:33,980
And this is in policy for 30 minutes or 60 minutes, they get to decompress anything they

1606
01:35:33,980 --> 01:35:34,980
want to do.

1607
01:35:34,980 --> 01:35:36,740
So they, some may choose to work out.

1608
01:35:36,740 --> 01:35:38,820
Some may go grab something to eat.

1609
01:35:38,820 --> 01:35:43,960
Some may take a shower, sleep, pray, meditate, whatever you want.

1610
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:49,400
And we give them a list of things that just to think about there, they're out of service.

1611
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:50,900
They're not going on another call.

1612
01:35:50,900 --> 01:35:56,280
I want them to process what's happened and decompress.

1613
01:35:56,280 --> 01:35:58,840
Then we have what's called a diffusing.

1614
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:04,220
So to process something purely, you need to understand facts.

1615
01:36:04,220 --> 01:36:08,560
Sometimes when you're just one responder to eight different vehicles on the scene, you

1616
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:12,580
don't really have, you've got your picture of what happened, but you don't know the big

1617
01:36:12,580 --> 01:36:13,820
picture.

1618
01:36:13,820 --> 01:36:18,980
So we bring everyone that was involved in the call together into what's called a diffusing.

1619
01:36:18,980 --> 01:36:19,980
No emotion.

1620
01:36:19,980 --> 01:36:22,660
This isn't a critical incident stress debriefing.

1621
01:36:22,660 --> 01:36:24,180
This is a diffusing.

1622
01:36:24,180 --> 01:36:25,980
So you don't bring emotion.

1623
01:36:25,980 --> 01:36:27,780
You just bring facts.

1624
01:36:27,780 --> 01:36:32,060
And the funny thing is, is that when we're doing this, we're also having a situation.

1625
01:36:32,060 --> 01:36:37,260
We got all the players there, but I also bring the right food to eat.

1626
01:36:37,260 --> 01:36:42,300
So a lot of times people, when they go through something stressful, they want comfort food.

1627
01:36:42,300 --> 01:36:46,940
And a lot of times just throwing one thing out they used to give us was a pizza.

1628
01:36:46,940 --> 01:36:51,300
Well, this has dairy, all these, you know, inflammatory things.

1629
01:36:51,300 --> 01:36:54,380
So we choose in anti-inflammatories.

1630
01:36:54,380 --> 01:36:58,120
We choose things that actually are proper gut health.

1631
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:03,740
There's a big aspect to what you eat after you've experienced trauma that's proven.

1632
01:37:03,740 --> 01:37:07,480
So we have, we have food for them to do because they're still on shift.

1633
01:37:07,480 --> 01:37:10,340
They're going to go back and they could see this again that night.

1634
01:37:10,340 --> 01:37:11,620
Who knows?

1635
01:37:11,620 --> 01:37:18,820
So we always start by sharing the facts of the incident so they can process it.

1636
01:37:18,820 --> 01:37:19,960
Very powerful.

1637
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:26,380
And we always end with what went right on that call because we can talk about, oh, we

1638
01:37:26,380 --> 01:37:27,380
should have cut those kids.

1639
01:37:27,380 --> 01:37:28,700
Maybe we could have saved them out.

1640
01:37:28,700 --> 01:37:30,060
I didn't set up command well.

1641
01:37:30,060 --> 01:37:32,040
I had a bad transportation corridor.

1642
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:34,460
The medics didn't get them out fast enough.

1643
01:37:34,460 --> 01:37:39,380
We could do that all day, but it's really important because some things went very well

1644
01:37:39,380 --> 01:37:42,820
there that you have to end on.

1645
01:37:42,820 --> 01:37:44,020
You made a great call.

1646
01:37:44,020 --> 01:37:45,020
You set it up.

1647
01:37:45,020 --> 01:37:46,980
You called for a mass casualty incident.

1648
01:37:46,980 --> 01:37:48,660
You said 10 patients.

1649
01:37:48,660 --> 01:37:50,800
You set this up very well.

1650
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:53,740
So always end on the positive like that because we do.

1651
01:37:53,740 --> 01:37:55,180
We tend to focus on the negative.

1652
01:37:55,180 --> 01:37:57,120
We always feel we can do better.

1653
01:37:57,120 --> 01:37:59,500
So that's what we've done.

1654
01:37:59,500 --> 01:38:04,620
Operationally, peer support members are assigned members and they're going to check in that

1655
01:38:04,620 --> 01:38:10,220
day, the next day, once a week and once a month because it keeps going.

1656
01:38:10,220 --> 01:38:13,360
Individuals can be impacted differently.

1657
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:20,780
One person may have a 13 year old and they saw them in that person that was dead or dying.

1658
01:38:20,780 --> 01:38:21,780
Individuals are different.

1659
01:38:21,780 --> 01:38:23,260
So that's why we have to check in.

1660
01:38:23,260 --> 01:38:28,660
It went so well that we didn't need a critical incident stress debrief.

1661
01:38:28,660 --> 01:38:30,300
They said, actually, we're good.

1662
01:38:30,300 --> 01:38:31,860
And our peer support is still working.

1663
01:38:31,860 --> 01:38:36,500
This happened just less than a month ago and they're still doing check ins.

1664
01:38:36,500 --> 01:38:37,820
We call them buddy checks.

1665
01:38:37,820 --> 01:38:39,500
Hey, I'm thinking about you.

1666
01:38:39,500 --> 01:38:41,980
It can be simple.

1667
01:38:41,980 --> 01:38:44,460
And some of them have delayed effects with trauma.

1668
01:38:44,460 --> 01:38:47,500
So that's the important thing.

1669
01:38:47,500 --> 01:38:50,740
So as a chief, have it in your mission, vision and values.

1670
01:38:50,740 --> 01:38:51,740
Have it in policy.

1671
01:38:51,740 --> 01:38:53,580
Have it in the budget.

1672
01:38:53,580 --> 01:38:56,420
Lead with resiliency with your peer support.

1673
01:38:56,420 --> 01:39:01,340
Send them out to be some of the healthiest behaviorally fit people out there.

1674
01:39:01,340 --> 01:39:06,460
And then learn how to operationalize peer support and work in a regional manner because

1675
01:39:06,460 --> 01:39:10,580
these big calls like mutual aid involve multiple agencies.

1676
01:39:10,580 --> 01:39:14,420
So care for each other in a mutual and a regional aspect.

1677
01:39:14,420 --> 01:39:17,820
So that's what I wanted to share about peer support.

1678
01:39:17,820 --> 01:39:20,940
This is the way to move forward and we're learning a lot and it's probably going to

1679
01:39:20,940 --> 01:39:22,460
keep evolving.

1680
01:39:22,460 --> 01:39:27,100
But this is some of the new changes that I'm not quite hearing out in the world right now,

1681
01:39:27,100 --> 01:39:28,620
but I think is making a difference.

1682
01:39:28,620 --> 01:39:30,540
No, that's really innovative.

1683
01:39:30,540 --> 01:39:33,320
It's not something I've heard before either.

1684
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:37,060
When it comes to the mental health conversation, I've talked about this a lot.

1685
01:39:37,060 --> 01:39:42,100
We seem to talk about stigma and you mentioned that earlier in the conversation.

1686
01:39:42,100 --> 01:39:46,180
And I feel like that's again, as you said, an inactionable statement.

1687
01:39:46,180 --> 01:39:51,740
We've got to remove the stigma culture just like you alluded to before.

1688
01:39:51,740 --> 01:39:57,460
Where I feel the conversation has power is that post-traumatic growth conversation, that

1689
01:39:57,460 --> 01:39:58,660
element of hope.

1690
01:39:58,660 --> 01:40:02,840
And obviously navigate from I'm hurting to that.

1691
01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:04,860
The middle part is the therapy.

1692
01:40:04,860 --> 01:40:05,860
What's going to work for you?

1693
01:40:05,860 --> 01:40:09,300
And this immense toolbox is available.

1694
01:40:09,300 --> 01:40:13,260
Some are still sadly a little in the shadows like the psychedelics and some of those areas

1695
01:40:13,260 --> 01:40:17,340
that are having amazing effects on some first responders and military members.

1696
01:40:17,340 --> 01:40:22,220
And then obviously you've got all the other things that are more available to us.

1697
01:40:22,220 --> 01:40:27,940
Where I see a massive issue is there's still an immense barrier to entry for a lot of responders

1698
01:40:27,940 --> 01:40:32,180
accessing the very therapies that they need, whether it's financial, they're not in their

1699
01:40:32,180 --> 01:40:37,660
insurance group, the EAP Russian roulette nightmare stories that I hear all the time.

1700
01:40:37,660 --> 01:40:42,460
How have you managed to bridge that gap in your department?

1701
01:40:42,460 --> 01:40:43,460
Great question.

1702
01:40:43,460 --> 01:40:50,180
So, again, with the consultant help and another company called First Tracks.

1703
01:40:50,180 --> 01:40:58,660
So everyone just, and this kind of hurts me is that everyone will always say, we just

1704
01:40:58,660 --> 01:40:59,660
need more therapists.

1705
01:40:59,660 --> 01:41:01,180
We need more therapists.

1706
01:41:01,180 --> 01:41:11,080
So this is where that comparison to cancer and post-traumatic stress kind of meet.

1707
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:16,420
You remember when I started in the eighties, it was common for having ashtrays and smoking

1708
01:41:16,420 --> 01:41:19,580
in the fire station, smoking after a fire.

1709
01:41:19,580 --> 01:41:20,580
Very common.

1710
01:41:20,580 --> 01:41:22,100
I was just, that's what it was.

1711
01:41:22,100 --> 01:41:26,620
We had one SCBA in 1987 to share during a fire.

1712
01:41:26,620 --> 01:41:29,940
And then of course, during overhaul, we just didn't wear anything.

1713
01:41:29,940 --> 01:41:36,940
So we learned, it took us this long to really learn about resilience to cancer.

1714
01:41:36,940 --> 01:41:43,100
In Washington, if you've been on 10 years as a firefighter, it's presumptive that you'll

1715
01:41:43,100 --> 01:41:45,160
have cancer.

1716
01:41:45,160 --> 01:41:52,260
Also in Washington, if you've been on 10 years, it's presumptive that you have PTS.

1717
01:41:52,260 --> 01:41:58,820
But for some reason, I would never, I'm teaching everyone that's new that we hire that we have,

1718
01:41:58,820 --> 01:42:00,060
you've got two sets of gear.

1719
01:42:00,060 --> 01:42:01,340
Here's our decom procedures.

1720
01:42:01,340 --> 01:42:04,420
Here's our clean and safe areas in the fire station.

1721
01:42:04,420 --> 01:42:07,600
We have vehicle exhaust capturing systems.

1722
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:08,940
Do everything you can.

1723
01:42:08,940 --> 01:42:10,360
We've got PFAS in the gear.

1724
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:16,180
This is what we're doing to prevent and reduce your carcinogen exposure and build up your

1725
01:42:16,180 --> 01:42:17,180
resilience.

1726
01:42:17,180 --> 01:42:21,320
Here's a great diet and food to eat and exercise.

1727
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:27,640
But here, everyone's screaming with post-traumatic stress, we need more therapists.

1728
01:42:27,640 --> 01:42:32,180
So that's me, a kin just saying to a new hire, hey, you're going to be exposed to cancer

1729
01:42:32,180 --> 01:42:33,300
in this job.

1730
01:42:33,300 --> 01:42:38,860
But I'll tell you what, I've got a team of oncologists that when you get cancer, they're

1731
01:42:38,860 --> 01:42:41,480
going to help put you through chemo.

1732
01:42:41,480 --> 01:42:43,780
And someone would say, bullshit, I don't want this job.

1733
01:42:43,780 --> 01:42:46,080
I was like, I don't want cancer.

1734
01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:48,660
But we're doing that with the trauma.

1735
01:42:48,660 --> 01:42:51,260
We're saying, hey, this job is going to take from you.

1736
01:42:51,260 --> 01:42:53,860
Here's a bunch of therapists in your time and need it.

1737
01:42:53,860 --> 01:42:57,900
It's like, no, they're not always growing out of the ground.

1738
01:42:57,900 --> 01:43:00,360
Therapists, everyone's snagging them up.

1739
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:02,540
We need culturally competent therapists.

1740
01:43:02,540 --> 01:43:04,480
We need trauma informed.

1741
01:43:04,480 --> 01:43:10,560
So what we've done is, yeah, we found our consultant and first tracks, they're finding

1742
01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:13,000
the right therapist for us.

1743
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:14,880
They're vetted by our people.

1744
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:17,080
And it's a constant vetting.

1745
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:20,940
And somebody says, yeah, they start out being good, but it's got kind of weird.

1746
01:43:20,940 --> 01:43:23,720
And I don't trust them.

1747
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:26,740
It's them telling who we want to use.

1748
01:43:26,740 --> 01:43:29,380
And then you have to find out, or do they work with our insurance?

1749
01:43:29,380 --> 01:43:34,360
How do we make a pool of money for people that need it so it's not a financial burden

1750
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:35,360
on them?

1751
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:38,500
You could say to someone, hey, yeah, just go get a therapist.

1752
01:43:38,500 --> 01:43:40,420
Some people are in crisis.

1753
01:43:40,420 --> 01:43:44,660
Talk therapy doesn't get you out of crisis.

1754
01:43:44,660 --> 01:43:45,820
Crisis is I'm not sleeping.

1755
01:43:45,820 --> 01:43:46,820
I've had nightmares.

1756
01:43:46,820 --> 01:43:49,140
I'm awake and I have nightmares.

1757
01:43:49,140 --> 01:43:51,420
You know, I can't eat.

1758
01:43:51,420 --> 01:43:53,340
You're not going to talk therapy that out.

1759
01:43:53,340 --> 01:43:55,040
So we need treatment.

1760
01:43:55,040 --> 01:44:01,340
And this is, I'm so glad you brought up different treatment modalities, because again, the company

1761
01:44:01,340 --> 01:44:05,740
that we're working with, and I'd love to share what we're doing with you, because we're scaling

1762
01:44:05,740 --> 01:44:12,580
it to be shared to bigger departments and to more people, is that we have, are you familiar

1763
01:44:12,580 --> 01:44:15,740
with Transmagnetic Cranial Stimulase, TMS?

1764
01:44:15,740 --> 01:44:17,740
Yes, I am.

1765
01:44:17,740 --> 01:44:18,740
Yeah.

1766
01:44:18,740 --> 01:44:24,980
So we've got some of the top doctors who actually have grants for us to use.

1767
01:44:24,980 --> 01:44:28,600
I've got some forward thinking people with rapid acting.

1768
01:44:28,600 --> 01:44:31,740
Instead of it used to be a kind of a longer process.

1769
01:44:31,740 --> 01:44:34,780
We've got five days that are going to make people a distance.

1770
01:44:34,780 --> 01:44:39,280
We have somebody that says, I want to just these helmets in the fire station to help

1771
01:44:39,280 --> 01:44:40,280
deep press.

1772
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:45,940
I mean, they, it's really moving fast and FDA approvals getting there.

1773
01:44:45,940 --> 01:44:48,360
Subganglion blocks, so SGBs.

1774
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:51,540
We have a doctor that again offering grants.

1775
01:44:51,540 --> 01:44:52,960
We have to be the navigator.

1776
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:57,660
We have to get our people by the hand.

1777
01:44:57,660 --> 01:45:03,540
Don't tell somebody that's in a mental crisis to say, Hey, by the way, yeah, call this,

1778
01:45:03,540 --> 01:45:05,580
go Google search for this stuff.

1779
01:45:05,580 --> 01:45:09,100
It's called TMS and you'll find somebody hopefully and then they're right one.

1780
01:45:09,100 --> 01:45:11,540
And I don't know how you're going to pay for it.

1781
01:45:11,540 --> 01:45:12,540
No.

1782
01:45:12,540 --> 01:45:18,820
If one of your members are in crisis, you shepherd them, you grab them by the hand.

1783
01:45:18,820 --> 01:45:20,660
I've got you.

1784
01:45:20,660 --> 01:45:22,220
We're going to do this.

1785
01:45:22,220 --> 01:45:23,400
There's some options.

1786
01:45:23,400 --> 01:45:24,400
Which one would you like?

1787
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:25,400
Oh, you want to do?

1788
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:26,400
Good.

1789
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:27,400
I've got you.

1790
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:28,400
I've got you.

1791
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:32,540
We've had people drive the other person to the subgangling block, which, you know, the

1792
01:45:32,540 --> 01:45:33,880
needles going in your neck.

1793
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:38,100
It's pretty amazing thing, but we've got these vetted doctors.

1794
01:45:38,100 --> 01:45:43,780
We have, we've have members who've gone through psilocybin and, and, and other treatments

1795
01:45:43,780 --> 01:45:46,580
with psychedelics change their lives.

1796
01:45:46,580 --> 01:45:48,780
EMDR still wonderful.

1797
01:45:48,780 --> 01:45:55,220
So once we get them out of crisis, then we can talk therapy is there.

1798
01:45:55,220 --> 01:45:59,900
So it's removing the barriers, the money barriers, the navigation barriers.

1799
01:45:59,900 --> 01:46:04,140
It's like telling a person who just broke their legs, Hey, help for you is two miles

1800
01:46:04,140 --> 01:46:06,180
down the road on the right.

1801
01:46:06,180 --> 01:46:07,980
We'll see you when you get there.

1802
01:46:07,980 --> 01:46:13,240
No, we've got to get to the point of these are our people, whether they're on duty or

1803
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:14,800
off duty.

1804
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:20,780
So thinking of it, like we've gone so far with, with cancer resilience, we need to get

1805
01:46:20,780 --> 01:46:26,860
upstream and build resilience with our members on the mental health side.

1806
01:46:26,860 --> 01:46:31,340
Even when someone is like, I had, we had one of our beloved members here and I was close

1807
01:46:31,340 --> 01:46:32,340
with them.

1808
01:46:32,340 --> 01:46:35,500
Um, was diagnosed with cancer, went through chemotherapy.

1809
01:46:35,500 --> 01:46:40,460
Um, sadly it was terminal, but we shaved our heads.

1810
01:46:40,460 --> 01:46:42,380
We got a Kickstarter campaign.

1811
01:46:42,380 --> 01:46:45,020
We visited him and his family, brought food.

1812
01:46:45,020 --> 01:46:48,020
We even, we even did yard work.

1813
01:46:48,020 --> 01:46:52,060
We had another member that was in post-traumatic stress.

1814
01:46:52,060 --> 01:46:56,180
And for some reason they treated this poor guy like a leper, like, Oh, he's struggling.

1815
01:46:56,180 --> 01:46:57,780
Leave them alone.

1816
01:46:57,780 --> 01:46:59,460
And he went downhill fast.

1817
01:46:59,460 --> 01:47:01,000
He lost his purpose.

1818
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:02,620
He lost his tribe.

1819
01:47:02,620 --> 01:47:06,100
He was alone and with his own thoughts spinning.

1820
01:47:06,100 --> 01:47:07,780
Why do we do that?

1821
01:47:07,780 --> 01:47:11,400
So we lost our, our member to cancer.

1822
01:47:11,400 --> 01:47:16,980
Even the funeral was something of love and support.

1823
01:47:16,980 --> 01:47:20,540
I've been to a funeral of a firefighter who died by suicide.

1824
01:47:20,540 --> 01:47:21,760
Very different.

1825
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:27,980
So we need to really change this whole aspect, take the lessons we've learned from cancer.

1826
01:47:27,980 --> 01:47:32,500
Both are going to kill you potentially cancer and PTS could kill you.

1827
01:47:32,500 --> 01:47:34,020
Both are presumptive.

1828
01:47:34,020 --> 01:47:36,020
We've come a long ways with building resilience.

1829
01:47:36,020 --> 01:47:37,380
So somebody doesn't get cancer.

1830
01:47:37,380 --> 01:47:42,620
We need to build resilience so they don't get, I want to put therapists out of business.

1831
01:47:42,620 --> 01:47:45,740
That should be the goal, not just adding more.

1832
01:47:45,740 --> 01:47:52,060
So we've also partnered with the university of Washington to create an internship so they

1833
01:47:52,060 --> 01:47:53,580
can learn our cultures.

1834
01:47:53,580 --> 01:47:59,780
They can do ride-alongs, have your therapist ride along with your people, get that face

1835
01:47:59,780 --> 01:48:00,780
to face.

1836
01:48:00,780 --> 01:48:04,340
Yes, a lot of them are going to do virtual therapy and it works well.

1837
01:48:04,340 --> 01:48:10,060
They can even do virtual EMDR now, but get them meeting them face to face.

1838
01:48:10,060 --> 01:48:15,660
We are a trusted organization and a trusted type of work that if they don't meet you face

1839
01:48:15,660 --> 01:48:20,100
to face and get to know you and you get to know what they see on a daily basis by doing

1840
01:48:20,100 --> 01:48:24,300
a ride along, it's going to be hard for them to truly connect.

1841
01:48:24,300 --> 01:48:29,180
If you expect someone to open up their soul to you, they need to trust you.

1842
01:48:29,180 --> 01:48:35,880
And so we're creating these pathways for people who want to consider being a therapist, but

1843
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:40,660
also understand that the ones that we have really get to know us personally.

1844
01:48:40,660 --> 01:48:41,840
We understand treatment.

1845
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:45,540
We understand navigation and we understand follow-up.

1846
01:48:45,540 --> 01:48:49,140
But if we can get upstream, we're going to deal with people in crisis, but we're going

1847
01:48:49,140 --> 01:48:52,980
to get upstream and make this like getting your teeth checked.

1848
01:48:52,980 --> 01:48:53,980
It's just what you do.

1849
01:48:53,980 --> 01:48:56,940
Yeah, the first couple are going to be a little awkward.

1850
01:48:56,940 --> 01:49:02,500
Maybe they're 30 minutes and you talk about hiking or the baseball team locally here,

1851
01:49:02,500 --> 01:49:04,820
but then you'll start building trust.

1852
01:49:04,820 --> 01:49:06,720
And you're just like, you know, I did a ride along with you.

1853
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:08,140
You see what we do.

1854
01:49:08,140 --> 01:49:09,620
I think you get it.

1855
01:49:09,620 --> 01:49:10,700
I actually am.

1856
01:49:10,700 --> 01:49:13,900
I'm struggling with my relationships or whatever it is.

1857
01:49:13,900 --> 01:49:14,900
I can't turn out.

1858
01:49:14,900 --> 01:49:15,900
I've got a monkey mind.

1859
01:49:15,900 --> 01:49:19,140
I'm watching Tim Ferriss and I'm trying to learn everything.

1860
01:49:19,140 --> 01:49:23,380
We even have a great company called Host Defense.

1861
01:49:23,380 --> 01:49:26,180
Maybe you saw Fantastic Fungi.

1862
01:49:26,180 --> 01:49:28,260
It's on Netflix.

1863
01:49:28,260 --> 01:49:30,980
So Paul is the founder.

1864
01:49:30,980 --> 01:49:35,020
It's here in Tacoma, just south of us in Seattle, from Seattle.

1865
01:49:35,020 --> 01:49:42,180
And they want to work with us with utilizing the power of mushrooms as resilience builder,

1866
01:49:42,180 --> 01:49:46,700
not just for treatment, but actually to keep us healthier.

1867
01:49:46,700 --> 01:49:47,700
Amazing stuff.

1868
01:49:47,700 --> 01:49:49,100
This is exciting for us.

1869
01:49:49,100 --> 01:49:51,100
Washington is a little progressive here.

1870
01:49:51,100 --> 01:49:53,880
And so that's that's exciting.

1871
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:58,460
But even companies I'm working with, Struggle Well and Josh Goldman.

1872
01:49:58,460 --> 01:50:01,160
So you talked about post-traumatic growth.

1873
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:02,300
Are you familiar with Struggle Well?

1874
01:50:02,300 --> 01:50:04,340
I have heard the mention before.

1875
01:50:04,340 --> 01:50:05,340
Yes.

1876
01:50:05,340 --> 01:50:06,340
Amazing.

1877
01:50:06,340 --> 01:50:08,100
So I'm going to be an instructor with them.

1878
01:50:08,100 --> 01:50:16,220
They they brought on a Vietnam veteran who was actually in a in a prisoner war camp right

1879
01:50:16,220 --> 01:50:18,500
next to John McCain.

1880
01:50:18,500 --> 01:50:24,140
And the way he mentioned, they went through some of the hardest times, but they all went

1881
01:50:24,140 --> 01:50:28,280
on to live amazing lives after the imprisonment.

1882
01:50:28,280 --> 01:50:33,700
But the people that were also shot down but not captured, they weren't able to process

1883
01:50:33,700 --> 01:50:35,620
and go through this.

1884
01:50:35,620 --> 01:50:37,700
I think we think that we're damaged.

1885
01:50:37,700 --> 01:50:42,740
All the calls that everyone keeps talking about on social media, oh, firefighters are

1886
01:50:42,740 --> 01:50:44,260
exposed to this.

1887
01:50:44,260 --> 01:50:45,260
They're damaged.

1888
01:50:45,260 --> 01:50:46,260
They're damaged.

1889
01:50:46,260 --> 01:50:47,860
That's not true.

1890
01:50:47,860 --> 01:50:53,340
We can actually from that we can actually grow from our traumatic past.

1891
01:50:53,340 --> 01:50:58,740
And so that's I'm excited to explore more of this that we don't have to be broken.

1892
01:50:58,740 --> 01:51:03,820
We can actually appreciate things about life because we've seen tough things.

1893
01:51:03,820 --> 01:51:05,340
I love our job.

1894
01:51:05,340 --> 01:51:08,940
Our job has been known to be as a parent with this shift work.

1895
01:51:08,940 --> 01:51:09,940
Amazing.

1896
01:51:09,940 --> 01:51:14,140
I have I had time with my kid that I know most jobs don't offer.

1897
01:51:14,140 --> 01:51:15,420
I have made friends.

1898
01:51:15,420 --> 01:51:19,440
I have seen things that help me appreciate more and more about life.

1899
01:51:19,440 --> 01:51:24,220
So this job, yes, it can take some things from you like sleep.

1900
01:51:24,220 --> 01:51:29,380
But if we can learn how to how to build resilience and understand sleep, it will give you so

1901
01:51:29,380 --> 01:51:30,540
much.

1902
01:51:30,540 --> 01:51:32,500
So that's I love your attitude.

1903
01:51:32,500 --> 01:51:34,680
Let's let's be optimistic about this work.

1904
01:51:34,680 --> 01:51:38,860
Let's think about what this job can give you and support the stuff that it may take from

1905
01:51:38,860 --> 01:51:39,860
you.

1906
01:51:39,860 --> 01:51:40,860
Beautiful.

1907
01:51:40,860 --> 01:51:41,860
Well, thank you for that.

1908
01:51:41,860 --> 01:51:43,860
And it's funny you mentioned Paul's that Paul Stamets.

1909
01:51:43,860 --> 01:51:44,860
Have I got that right?

1910
01:51:44,860 --> 01:51:45,860
Yes.

1911
01:51:45,860 --> 01:51:46,860
Very good.

1912
01:51:46,860 --> 01:51:47,860
I'm not needing it on the show one day.

1913
01:51:47,860 --> 01:51:52,740
Oh, well, if I if I start making this connection, we just started working.

1914
01:51:52,740 --> 01:51:58,100
If I can get him because he would love to work in the first responder space.

1915
01:51:58,100 --> 01:51:59,280
That's new for him, right?

1916
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:01,400
He's just saying, hey, mushrooms are great for everyone.

1917
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:06,620
But if he can understand how much they mean to us here in the North and we're local for

1918
01:52:06,620 --> 01:52:09,700
him, I would I'd love to set you up with that, James.

1919
01:52:09,700 --> 01:52:10,700
Fantastic.

1920
01:52:10,700 --> 01:52:11,700
All right.

1921
01:52:11,700 --> 01:52:12,700
Well, then go to the closing questions.

1922
01:52:12,700 --> 01:52:16,580
The first one, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?

1923
01:52:16,580 --> 01:52:20,620
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1924
01:52:20,620 --> 01:52:24,420
Oh, I'm I'm always a Simon Sinek fan.

1925
01:52:24,420 --> 01:52:29,940
So when it comes to leadership in the fire service, why eat leaders eat last is one of

1926
01:52:29,940 --> 01:52:31,580
my all time favorites.

1927
01:52:31,580 --> 01:52:37,660
But also, I just I'm reading through the untethered soul.

1928
01:52:37,660 --> 01:52:42,240
Michael Singer, I think is the name, the untethered soul.

1929
01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:48,000
This is really opened my eyes to the ongoing dialogue in our heads.

1930
01:52:48,000 --> 01:52:54,800
That is that is we really need to understand because we we have this negative track that

1931
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:59,220
always is playing and you talk about having a monkey mind.

1932
01:52:59,220 --> 01:53:00,340
It's always going.

1933
01:53:00,340 --> 01:53:04,820
So that is that is another book that I love.

1934
01:53:04,820 --> 01:53:05,820
Understanding happiness.

1935
01:53:05,820 --> 01:53:10,220
I think Oprah Winfrey and I forgot his other name.

1936
01:53:10,220 --> 01:53:13,500
Oh, I should have wrote this down.

1937
01:53:13,500 --> 01:53:16,440
But that happiness isn't a destination.

1938
01:53:16,440 --> 01:53:18,460
It's something that we're doing each day.

1939
01:53:18,460 --> 01:53:21,940
And it's not just I need to arrive there.

1940
01:53:21,940 --> 01:53:24,280
It's appreciating things throughout the day and gratitude.

1941
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:27,980
So those those have been impactful for me lately.

1942
01:53:27,980 --> 01:53:28,980
Beautiful.

1943
01:53:28,980 --> 01:53:31,340
What about films and documentaries?

1944
01:53:31,340 --> 01:53:32,340
Any of those that you love?

1945
01:53:32,340 --> 01:53:35,540
Oh, like that fabulous fun guy.

1946
01:53:35,540 --> 01:53:37,020
I think that's amazing.

1947
01:53:37,020 --> 01:53:42,780
I love understanding how our brain works and how we connect.

1948
01:53:42,780 --> 01:53:44,460
There are some fantastic documentaries.

1949
01:53:44,460 --> 01:53:45,940
I love I love podcasts.

1950
01:53:45,940 --> 01:53:51,020
I love Andrew Huberman against Simon Sinek, Lewis Howes.

1951
01:53:51,020 --> 01:53:56,780
A lot of our young firefighters connect with the you know, with us, Jocko Willis, too.

1952
01:53:56,780 --> 01:54:03,740
It's they they love that the fitness side, they love the military tie in side of it also.

1953
01:54:03,740 --> 01:54:08,780
So I have to think about if there's any other documentary.

1954
01:54:08,780 --> 01:54:12,180
I haven't been watching a lot of TV.

1955
01:54:12,180 --> 01:54:14,900
But I do love podcasts.

1956
01:54:14,900 --> 01:54:17,460
Tom Billy is another one I really like to.

1957
01:54:17,460 --> 01:54:18,460
Brilliant.

1958
01:54:18,460 --> 01:54:19,460
All right.

1959
01:54:19,460 --> 01:54:23,020
Well, then the next question, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast

1960
01:54:23,020 --> 01:54:27,580
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1961
01:54:27,580 --> 01:54:28,580
world?

1962
01:54:28,580 --> 01:54:35,900
Oh, yeah, I would love to bring his name is Christopher Brown.

1963
01:54:35,900 --> 01:54:39,400
And he's he's here in the Northwest.

1964
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:43,100
He is a ex military himself.

1965
01:54:43,100 --> 01:54:50,180
He specialized in working for the veteran community for post traumatic stress.

1966
01:54:50,180 --> 01:54:53,500
He's working with starting to work with fire departments now.

1967
01:54:53,500 --> 01:54:58,720
But he's an innovator with psychedelics, with VR technology.

1968
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:04,060
And he's got an excellent way to look at that.

1969
01:55:04,060 --> 01:55:07,140
Yeah, a lot of it's on the treatment side.

1970
01:55:07,140 --> 01:55:09,620
Owen Muir would be another one.

1971
01:55:09,620 --> 01:55:10,620
He was wonderful.

1972
01:55:10,620 --> 01:55:15,180
He helped to understand helped me understand how we interact with folks with behavioral

1973
01:55:15,180 --> 01:55:16,500
health emergencies.

1974
01:55:16,500 --> 01:55:20,480
We kind of I did a podcast with him and we dove deep into that.

1975
01:55:20,480 --> 01:55:22,440
He's brilliant.

1976
01:55:22,440 --> 01:55:24,540
His rapid acting TMS.

1977
01:55:24,540 --> 01:55:26,820
I mean, he's on the forefront.

1978
01:55:26,820 --> 01:55:28,820
He's one that you're really going to enjoy.

1979
01:55:28,820 --> 01:55:29,820
Brilliant.

1980
01:55:29,820 --> 01:55:30,820
All right.

1981
01:55:30,820 --> 01:55:33,660
Well, then the last question for everyone knows where to find you.

1982
01:55:33,660 --> 01:55:35,740
What do you do to decompress?

1983
01:55:35,740 --> 01:55:41,500
Oh, so I'm I love to be out in nature.

1984
01:55:41,500 --> 01:55:44,300
So I do a lot of light hikes.

1985
01:55:44,300 --> 01:55:51,300
And when I do this, it used to be for me to think about things and try to work out problems

1986
01:55:51,300 --> 01:55:52,860
as I was in the forest.

1987
01:55:52,860 --> 01:55:55,900
We have beautiful forests here in Washington.

1988
01:55:55,900 --> 01:56:02,580
But I work with my therapist and she helped remind me that the more present I can be,

1989
01:56:02,580 --> 01:56:08,300
the more space that makes for my brain to handle things outside of this.

1990
01:56:08,300 --> 01:56:11,260
So when she had me do a couple of things.

1991
01:56:11,260 --> 01:56:18,900
So when I'm out hiking, she has me look up and go my eyes that go back to the top of

1992
01:56:18,900 --> 01:56:20,100
the trees.

1993
01:56:20,100 --> 01:56:21,520
Look at the clouds.

1994
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:25,800
She says, when you were a kid, do you remember lying down in the grass and picking out shapes

1995
01:56:25,800 --> 01:56:31,200
of the cloud, just marveling at how fast they would move different formations?

1996
01:56:31,200 --> 01:56:34,620
She goes, adults don't do that anymore.

1997
01:56:34,620 --> 01:56:37,120
Look at what phones have done to us.

1998
01:56:37,120 --> 01:56:38,720
Our heads are down.

1999
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:43,220
She goes, there's beauty in looking up and when you're scanning back and forth to the

2000
01:56:43,220 --> 01:56:46,580
trees, your eyes are moving back and forth.

2001
01:56:46,580 --> 01:56:48,880
And that's another brain connection.

2002
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:50,800
She says, be present.

2003
01:56:50,800 --> 01:56:52,700
Listen to the sounds of the forest.

2004
01:56:52,700 --> 01:56:55,100
Listen to the wind going through the leaves.

2005
01:56:55,100 --> 01:56:57,100
Listen to the birds.

2006
01:56:57,100 --> 01:56:58,620
And I did that.

2007
01:56:58,620 --> 01:57:03,180
And when a forest that I normally thought was a good quiet place, the forest actually

2008
01:57:03,180 --> 01:57:07,620
became very loud and beautiful, like a whole symphony.

2009
01:57:07,620 --> 01:57:10,220
So I love to get out in nature.

2010
01:57:10,220 --> 01:57:14,120
I love to get away and be present, to look up.

2011
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:15,300
Look at the clouds.

2012
01:57:15,300 --> 01:57:16,640
Look at the tops of the trees.

2013
01:57:16,640 --> 01:57:18,820
Watch the wind move the tops.

2014
01:57:18,820 --> 01:57:20,380
It's actually wonderful.

2015
01:57:20,380 --> 01:57:25,980
And I feel, I can't tell you how good I feel, even a one hour hike, I come out feeling like

2016
01:57:25,980 --> 01:57:29,380
I've just had eight hours of sleep.

2017
01:57:29,380 --> 01:57:31,020
And then my mind's ready to go.

2018
01:57:31,020 --> 01:57:33,280
I can actually, I can work better.

2019
01:57:33,280 --> 01:57:36,140
So that's what I like to do.

2020
01:57:36,140 --> 01:57:39,380
It's amazing how many times that comes up when I ask this question.

2021
01:57:39,380 --> 01:57:41,820
And there's some glaring common denominators.

2022
01:57:41,820 --> 01:57:45,420
And obviously, if you're exercising outside, whether that's surfing or hiking, whatever

2023
01:57:45,420 --> 01:57:50,540
it is, you've got the sunlight, you've got the exercise, you've got the time in nature,

2024
01:57:50,540 --> 01:57:55,100
you've got the inability to listen to music or read your phone at that moment.

2025
01:57:55,100 --> 01:58:00,420
And then when you kind of reflect on what was told to the world during the pandemic,

2026
01:58:00,420 --> 01:58:04,860
it literally couldn't have been more opposite than what humans actually need to be mentally

2027
01:58:04,860 --> 01:58:06,060
and physically resilient.

2028
01:58:06,060 --> 01:58:12,960
So I think it's a powerful takeaway not to spend too long in the 2020 era, but understanding

2029
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:19,900
that the nucleus of human happiness and resilience is basically going back to what we did as

2030
01:58:19,900 --> 01:58:23,300
human beings from about 100 years on prior.

2031
01:58:23,300 --> 01:58:26,260
Well said.

2032
01:58:26,260 --> 01:58:27,260
That's exactly.

2033
01:58:27,260 --> 01:58:30,940
And I'm glad that you're getting all the different perspectives of what people do and seeing

2034
01:58:30,940 --> 01:58:32,340
those common denominators.

2035
01:58:32,340 --> 01:58:33,340
Absolutely.

2036
01:58:33,340 --> 01:58:34,340
All right.

2037
01:58:34,340 --> 01:58:37,620
So for people listening, I'm sure there's a lot of people in all ranks that would love

2038
01:58:37,620 --> 01:58:41,100
to kind of reach out and learn more about what you've discussed today.

2039
01:58:41,100 --> 01:58:44,500
Where are the best places to find you online?

2040
01:58:44,500 --> 01:58:45,900
On LinkedIn.

2041
01:58:45,900 --> 01:58:48,780
And then also, it's got my email and contact.

2042
01:58:48,780 --> 01:58:50,620
That's probably the best way to find me online.

2043
01:58:50,620 --> 01:58:53,140
Well, Chuck, I want to say thank you so much.

2044
01:58:53,140 --> 01:58:57,600
I mean, not only leading us through some of the fire service areas and some of the progressive

2045
01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:03,380
initiatives that you have, but also I think what you've discussed in the last 20, 30 minutes

2046
01:59:03,380 --> 01:59:06,380
and some of the innovations in your department.

2047
01:59:06,380 --> 01:59:10,740
And then again, the financial and emotional support that you're proactively putting into

2048
01:59:10,740 --> 01:59:14,420
your firefighters is definitely a voice that we need to hear.

2049
01:59:14,420 --> 01:59:17,980
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

2050
01:59:17,980 --> 01:59:20,700
Behind the Shield podcast today.

2051
01:59:20,700 --> 01:59:21,700
I appreciate it.

2052
01:59:21,700 --> 01:59:22,700
Thank you so much, James.

2053
01:59:22,700 --> 01:59:27,980
And I'll get you those contacts from Portland and Dr. Gina Poe for sleep.

2054
01:59:27,980 --> 01:59:39,620
We'll get on sleep and shift schedules.