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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
My name is James Gearing and this is episode 277 and I am so excited to bring to you this
week Clint Mallarchuk.
Now Clint is a legend in the NHL initially as a goalkeeper and then transitioning over
to coaching.
And tragically he's also known for a video when he was struck in the throat by an opposing
player's skate and almost bled to death out on the ice.
So that is one page of his entire story and you will hear the power of his mental health
struggles, of how he entered the NHL, his philosophy on mental wellness, on becoming
an elite athlete, on mentorship, so many areas that he discusses in this interview.
Before we get to that, as I always say, please just take a moment and go to whichever podcast
app you listen to this on, whether it's iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback and then most importantly rate the show.
The more five star ratings we get, the more visible we are for people looking for a podcast
like this.
And then as I've said many, many times, you guys are this podcast.
So the more you share, the bigger this grows, the more people it's going to reach.
And episodes like Clint's that are so powerful truly may save a life if they get to the right
person.
So I ask you to help share this project.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Clint Malarchuk.
Enjoy.
So Clint, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time to come on
the Behind the Shield podcast.
Oh, my pleasure.
It's something that's important in our professions and society.
So always willing to chat about my adventures with mental illness and PTSD and you name
it I've been probably diagnosed with it.
Yeah, well, that's interesting.
So I read the book Matter of Inches and yeah, your story, a lot of people obviously we're
going to talk about this, are going to think of you that one specific event with the accident
on the rink, but you know, it really starts right at the very, very beginning.
So I'd love to do that and then work our way chronologically forward.
So where were you born?
And then tell me what your family unit was like, what your parents did and how many siblings.
Well, I was born in Grand Prairie, Alberta, which is well, it's north.
It's way up there in northern northern part of Alberta.
So it's cold winters, long winters, grew up, you know, playing hockey.
That's what we did when you get that much winter and snow and ice and you just grow
up around that hockey culture.
I had an older, have an older brother, seven years older than me and a sister is six years
older than me.
So you know, we, we saw different because we're that far apart, at least, you know,
I'm that far apart from them.
We saw different things with but you know, I, my dad was a great guy and he was my hero.
He was a hockey goalie, just like I was.
And, and but the problem is he, he had pretty severe alcoholism and you know, it's a progressive
disease.
So what they saw, you know, seven and six years ahead of me, you know, I probably saw
more than they did because of, like I said, the disease progressed in him and he came,
he came quite abusive.
And we, you know, we know so many people, they're just such great people, but then they
get into some sort of an addiction and it, it turns them into a monster.
Now reading that, so you know, like you said, as you were younger through younger eyes,
you were kind of, you know, you weren't aware of that side of him because he was just your
dad and your hero.
And then as, as you go into the book, you talk about that more looking back now, especially
after being in the journey of self-discovery yourself, what do you think it was about your
dad's earlier life that, that led him to the alcoholism?
Well, knowing what I do know now about, you know, everything I've been through and, you
know, a zillion counselors and psychologists and psychiatrists.
And you know, I've had a life of a life, full life of experiences with, with mental illnesses
and, and, and self-reflection writing the book.
I look back and I think I really do that my dad was mentally ill and like so many people
back in those days, you know, I was born in 61.
So we're talking, you know, when I was a young kid in the sixties and early seventies, you
know, with my father, I, there's a huge correlation between addiction and mental illness.
For me, as I learned later, you know, and I'm sure it was, I look back and I think this
was probably for my daddy.
He probably had anxiety and some sorts of depression.
I know he had some self esteem issues looking, researching back.
And so, you know, for me, I'll just talk about my addiction was alcohol.
And it was, it was a medication for me.
I didn't party much, you know, sure.
I was a hockey player.
We partied, you know, regular, but I, you know, I used alcohol.
If I was anxious, it would calm me down.
If I was depressed, it would pick me up.
If my OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, which I had, we still do, but it would calm
it where I didn't have to do certain things, certain compulsions.
So alcohol was, was a medication and just getting back to your question.
Yeah, I think my father looking back now and, and this is all fairly recent self reflection
on my life.
I think my dad, and it does also, I've found out in the last year or so, my family has
quite a history of mental illness.
You know, when I'm talking about cousins and, and aunts and like I said, maybe my father.
Right now I know you, you talk about yourself kind of discovering what ultimately you realized
was OCD, even when you were young.
So, so tell me about that.
When did you realize that there was that compulsion, especially with the hygiene side?
Well, yeah, you know, everybody thinks, uh, obsessive compulsive disorder.
First thing they think, germophobia, uh, constant hand washing and, and showering or whatever,
uh, light switches, counting, things like that.
And I did, I did definitely go through some contamination issues when I was young.
Um, you know, I was never diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder until I was like 30 years
old.
And, um, uh, for me that was because my mom was trying to get me into doctors saying this
kid's really suffering with anxiety and he's, uh, uh, fortunately though, I was able to
channel my compulsions into hockey rather than to germs or, uh, counting or any of those
other things that, that we go through.
So I became very obsessive about my, uh, wanting to be an NHL hockey player.
Like I said, my dad was a, a great goalie.
Uh, my older brother was a great goalie as well.
So it was in me, uh, maybe that helped me obsess about being a great goalie like them.
Uh, you know, like my brother was drafted to the NHL as well.
Um, you know, so I looked up to these, uh, these two men.
And uh, like I said, my brother was seven years older than me.
So he, he'd actually had a lot of influence on my, uh, my teens after dad had really kind
of, uh, left the picture and, uh, you know, and again, he was kind of a hero.
So I was able, uh, you know, just that obsessive compulsiveness and compulsively train to be
a hockey goalie, you know, as a kid, I mean, I was young, 12 years old and I'm training
like, like, uh, you don't even start training that young.
Well, maybe they do now, but we didn't back then.
Yeah, but it was interesting watching as you were saying, so you had this OCD side that
in one respect, people might look from the outside looking in going, well, that's weird.
You know, the light switch thing and not be able to touch anything because of the germs.
But then you found as a very young boy, the, the healthy way of channeling that, which
was the, the meticulous training and drilling and, you know, that you talk about, you know,
your, your racquetball later to, to funnel that and channel that into something that
was a good, healthy outlet.
Well, that's, that's, that's, I'm one of the fortunate ones, I think, uh, with that disorder
and, and I'm not saying it didn't overlap into, into, I still had the germophobia, uh,
you know, you know, growing up and, and even, even today I still do a little bit.
Um, and so, but the main thing was, it was, I was able to, uh, put most of it into, into
the hockey and, uh, you know, I don't think I was the most talented guy in the world.
Uh, a lot of people's, uh, later on said, man, you were so good when you were this age
or that age and everything, but, you know, I was very insecure and I, I, I, you know,
I didn't believe it and so I felt like if I was going to have to, uh, outperform or
make a team or anything, I had to outwork, uh, because I thought I didn't have much skill.
So that's where the OCD came in and the repetitions that I would do countless, uh, repetitions.
Um, there was a deal that, uh, we did a few years ago.
It was an ESPN 30 for 30, but it was a short, it's only like a 10 minute deal and they
had this kid that kind of portrayed me when I was young.
Um, and he did a great job.
Uh, uh, you know, this young kid, he's about 12 years old and he's, he's supposed to be
Clint when I'm 12 and man, they, I really was like, holy moly.
That's how hard I did work.
This kid worked his butt off cause he had to, the cameras were rolling.
Now you, you talk about that quite a bit like that.
Um, the, the lack of self belief that you had talent and that's funny because it's something
I've talked about with myself and the, the phrase I came across, I don't know, only a
couple of years ago, I think was imposter syndrome.
And I wonder now, you know, if, if you talk to your fellow, you know, elite athletes in
the NHL, how many of these men actually also had that self doubt?
Well, I, this is my opinion.
The most insecure people in the world.
I mean, I played, uh, hockey was, you know, my life I played, I coached in the NHL, you
know, for, I've been in the game all, I'm 68 and I got out of it about four, three,
well four years ago when my book came out.
And so I know athletes and especially hockey players.
And you know, part of it is the job insecurity.
Although nowadays they make a ton of dough.
Uh, it's a lot different when, when I was, but we had an NHL or, or I played for Buffalo
Sabres in, uh, late eighties, early nineties.
And we had a reunion just on the last weekend.
And uh, wow.
I mean to see, and there's one guy that I have talked to for probably about four years
now that is really, really struggling with a lot of things.
Um, but I meet a lot of these guys and all, all, all we do is bitch and moan on how much
money everybody's making now and how our jobs were on the line, all the game, you know,
one bad game and you could be in the minors and that mental, uh, uh, you know, we didn't
have a lot of stability back then.
Uh, it's a lot better now for sure.
But, uh, to see these guys and we're all talking openly, uh, now we're, you know, 50, 60 year
old men and we're going, you know, oh man, remember that, you know, God, I had that one
game and I thought next day I'd be gone.
And so yeah, very insecure.
Um, I think now with today's athlete, uh, even though they got the security, the financial
security that their, uh, contracts are so big now, uh, it's still, um, for them, uh,
their self-worth, a lot of our self-worth goes, well, here, here's an example.
Young, Clem, Alarchuk, if I had a good game, I was a good kid.
If I had a bad game, I was a bad kid.
Now that's pretty sick thinking.
And you know, talking to these other guys that I played with, uh, yeah, I think we all
experienced that type of sick thinking growing up and, and as, as pros, especially as pros.
Yeah.
And I think from the outside, looking in now with these elite athletes, like you said,
their, their environment seems to be, you know, set up for them to thrive.
Now, like you said, they're well-paid.
They've got the top nutritionists and trainers and all these other things, but they are the,
the, the microscope that they're under now, especially with the social media side.
Um, I can imagine that's probably replaced the other stresses that you had earlier in
your career.
Well that, yeah.
And I, I was kind of leading into that now because, because of the social media, every,
every play, uh, good play, bad play or whatever, and the scrutiny that goes on with the media
now because of social media, because of the, uh, high tech internet, you can watch a game
after the game is over, you know, on your computer and you can live stream and you can
do this.
So definitely like, uh, we, we older players were complaining about, uh, this and that,
but now I look like you just mentioned at our, uh, today's athlete and the scrutiny,
uh, is very, very intense because of, uh, you know, internet and social media technology.
Yeah.
So when you were younger, obviously you started growing in your career.
Um, tell me about the kind of journey that took you from not drinking and focusing and
being purely, you know, an athlete to when you started finding yourself wandering and,
and, and your mental and physical ill health started turning.
Well, my ill health, you know, I was never diagnosed until, um, after my injury in, in,
uh, 1989, you know, when I cut my jugular vein in a game, that's when everything started
to come out.
Um, I was never diagnosed with anything, uh, even as a kid.
And I was hospitalized, uh, one time for a couple months and, you know, they just said,
well, he's a real anxious kid.
Good luck lady to my mom.
And uh, you know, we've come so far, thank God.
Um, but yeah, for, for me, uh, that accident, we don't understand.
Well, you do.
I know you do, you know, firefighting and you've dealt with trauma probably with yourself,
but with others, um, compadres and colleagues, uh, teammates, as you probably want to call
them at times.
Um, the trauma of my accident was when, uh, I let's, well, first of all, I came back in
10 days, you know, I almost died on the ice.
I became kind of a cult hero, uh, because I came back so quick that city really, really
embraced me.
And uh, you know, the season was getting close to the end and then we have playoffs.
So I just rode that adrenaline and it was next season where I really started to, uh,
struggle with, uh, the OCD things.
Uh, it was hard for me to leave the house.
I was starting to have panic attacks.
Um, the, the depression and anxiety were, you know, it was, it was bipolar.
I'd be one minute of being so dang anxious.
Next minute I'm so dang depressed.
So anyways, I didn't sleep for 10 days because of the flashbacks that I started to have the,
I guess, undiagnosed PTSD.
I would see that skate come up and, and then I'd see the blood and I'd wake straight up
in bed.
Uh, you know, just like in the movies and the movies, they are, no one sits straight
up in bed like that.
And yeah, it was, that was me.
And uh, uh, we had a Superbowl party at, uh, our captain's house, Pat LaFontaine and, and,
uh, I was only there probably 20 minutes and I went home.
I, I, because I hadn't slept in, in, uh, what I was doing to sleep to avoid the nightmares,
I'd, I'd sleep in a chair and it'd be like on an airplane.
Some people, I see some people can really sleep, but I can't, I'll have my head will
bobble around.
And so that's how I was getting by for my sleep for about 10 days, just on a chair,
rolling around and avoiding those, uh, those flashbacks.
Uh, and I was doing all this, you gotta understand, I was doing it all in silence and darkness.
You know, I wasn't telling anybody.
And the reason being is because of the stigma.
Uh, they think that I might be screwed up mentally or whatever they called it back then,
mentally crazy, mentally ill, whatever that my career would be done.
So I didn't want to divulge any of this.
Well anyways, uh, at that Superbowl party, uh, uh, I had, uh, I went back home and there
was a, uh, a prescription that I was on for pain painkiller and it said, do not drink
well with alcohol will make you drowsy.
And I said, this is great.
I'm going to sleep tonight.
So I took a few extra painkillers and, uh, and, uh, not, not, not like that bottle or
anything like that, maybe five or six, and then I drank a bottle of scotch, uh, which
resulted into my, uh, heart stopping.
And that's when I got woke up in the hospital.
They thought it was a suicide attempt with wasn't, and, uh, it was sleep deprivation
and all these, all these things.
It was, you know, undiagnosed PTSD from my, my incident, obviously not sleeping, avoiding,
uh, the nightmares, all those things.
So, uh, I finally, that's the first time I got diagnosed, uh, with mental illness and,
but PTSD wasn't a set of words back then.
And I was never diagnosed with that.
Nothing of my accident came, came up, uh, you know, doctors never ever brought that
up.
Um, I look back and I'm going, wow, that's kind of weird.
I know you, you got this guy that's going through all these things and all, you know,
you might want to look into it a bit, but I didn't think the accident affected me either
because I dealt with these things, um, to some degree, certain degrees my whole life.
Yeah.
Now going back to, um, the, the accident first.
So for everyone listening, I'm sure 95% of the people know exactly what we're talking
about already, but, um, you were in goal, I think it was one of the, the opposite team
was pulled down and his skate ended up cutting into your throat.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So, so you lacerated a jugular vein.
Thank God it didn't hit you a carotid artery.
How the hell were you back on the ice in 10 days?
It's my first question.
Well, that's the, that's the amazing thing that, you know, I don't think it's so amazing.
I had to wait till the stitches came out.
But you know, first of all, my thinking was, you know, I grew up in a ranch and cowboy
and that you get bucked off a horse.
You get right back on.
You'd want that fear to set in.
You'd want to think the horse, uh, knows how to beat you.
Now, you know, all this mentality that I broke, uh, you know, it was brought up with, but
then, uh, um, it was just the thing is I had no counseling and maybe it was okay to
come back as quick as I did.
Um, but it would have been nice if I had counseling.
None was offered and I didn't think of it either.
I didn't, didn't even think of it.
And uh, so I just thought get back is, which in a way was, uh, uh, it just endeared me
to the city so much.
I mean, even to this day, I was just there, like I said, for a reunion and they have a
band called Malarchuk in, in Buffalo and it's been 30 years since I played there.
So I'm, I'm certainly remembered for, you know, courage and grit and hard work and,
and things like that.
But um, yeah, the, the fact that I came back that quick, uh, was I guess the most important
fact is, uh, uh, maybe I could have come back, but I should have had some sort of, you know,
consultation or something.
Yeah.
Well, I know.
And we have, you know, we see these, these NHL players that, you know, they get the teeth
knocked out or, you know, lacerate the, the forehead or something like that.
Well, you know, they take themselves back up and they get back on the ice, but a jugular
vein you'd think the medical advice would have been, no, it's not an option.
Like, you know, we need to make sure this is completely healed up before.
I mean, as the psychological side aside, just, just anatomically with that, that an important
vessel being, being stitched up that they would have, you know, forced you to, to wait.
They said I lost, they said I lost a third of my, uh, my blood and you know, that's quite
a bit, I guess.
So I remember, uh, in the summer, you know, the season's over.
I think we were out in the playoffs around April, middle of April or something, probably.
And then in July, I was still weak from, you know, cause I didn't have a transfusion or
given blood or nothing and I was just, uh, really, really weak until, oh shoot, you know,
four or five months, uh, to build up, I guess my blood supply again.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And then to be, you know, play at an elite level a few days after that sounds, I mean,
it's admirable, like you said, and I totally get why everyone had so much admiration for
you, but from a medical professional side, it seems like it was some pretty shitty advice
to, to allow you back on the ice.
But uh, you know, 30 years ago too.
Yes, exactly.
Um, so within the other side is so there, when I was reading the book, there was something
that really struck out to me.
I talk a lot about sleep deprivation and the effects on mental health in this podcast because
not acutely like you had, but chronically, you know, these first responders are, are
sleep deprived, these doctors, nurses, you know, when they're doing these shifts and
I see now the effects on the long-term health, the short-term, you know, acuity.
Um, when, when you started, you know, not being able to sleep, what were your, excuse
me, what were your observations internally off those preceding days?
Well, all I wanted to, you know, as an athlete, you're, I'm just trying to save my job.
So I'm just trying to get enough sleep to get by without having that flashback because
you know, when you say a flashback or a nightmare, a lot of people don't understand that when
you wake up, uh, your heart is pounding, you're sweating, you're grabbing at your neck.
So it's not like just a bad dream.
You're actually reliving this in every way, physically, physiologically, uh, spiritually,
every way.
And uh, so talk about sleep deprivation and, and that, you know, I, that was on my, that
was my doing because I didn't want to have that flashback, that nightmare.
So that was me.
I could sleep, I could fall asleep, but the problem was I would wake up, uh, to that reoccurring
nightmare.
And so that's why I slept in a chair and, uh, you know, that was self-inflicted, uh,
sleep deprivation, but boy, oh boy, I'll tell you what your mind, uh, doesn't function very
good having experienced that kind of sleep deprivation.
Uh, it's almost like you, if you're aren't mentally ill already, it's like going through
a mental illness of some sort.
I still struggle with, uh, with insomnia and, uh, I was on a road trip a few years ago and
I didn't sleep for two nights and I'm going, what the heck?
What is going on?
And I wasn't tired either.
I mean, I go to bed and, uh, try to sleep and I couldn't.
So I just get up and do stuff and in my hotel room, I was on the road and, and, uh, then
I realized, and this is very interesting that our body does remember trauma.
And I look, and I went, oh, and I just learned this too, you know, a year or two before this
all happened.
I went, oh, it's my anniversary of my jugular vein being cut.
And it wasn't to the exact day.
It can be, you know, any, you know, within a couple of weeks or before or after.
And I went, oh, no wonder.
And uh, you know, uh, that is one of my, one of my anniversaries that I have to be conscious
of that I might not sleep.
Uh, you know, I was, I was totally functioning great, but I just couldn't sleep all because
of that anniversary that I didn't acknowledge right away.
That's interesting.
So just, just the, the weather of that time of year or the holiday that's close to that.
And I could see how the multiple chronological reminders.
Yeah, for sure.
It's, uh, it's, it's been proven.
So you know, like everything now it's all scientifically proven.
And then this whole thing is also, if we see it with our own eyes, do we need to wait for
studies?
Um, all right.
Then, uh, so you had this period where you weren't sleeping and obviously it drove you
to the, the time you took the sleeping pills and the Scotch.
Had you had any behavior like that before, or was this kind of like a pivotal moment
in, in the post injury process?
You know, that's a good question, James.
Um, I, I, you know, obviously I'd struggled with several issues, uh, you know, depression
and anxiety, insecurities, all these things, but, uh, not to the degree after the injury.
Like, uh, you know, like I said, I, you learn a lot and, uh, if you're maybe predisposed
to let's say mental illness of some sort, um, a trauma can set it right to the max.
Like, you know, that's why we have so many, uh, first responders, military people that,
uh, they experienced trauma and then all of a sudden they're almost like a different person.
They're struggling, uh, so deeply with so many different issues.
Yeah.
So then what was the, the journey like after that first event?
So you know, you're in the hospital, thank goodness it was your, your wife had CPR and
actually kept you alive.
Well that, that began, well, first of all, diagnosis of mental illness.
Uh, and then, uh, a two and a half to three year period of, and I don't want to discourage
people but we're talking 30 years ago or more.
Um, and we've come so much further with our medications, our counseling, our therapy,
all these things.
So what happened, I was like trying different medications, different doctors.
They were sending me to specialists, um, and nothing was working and with antidepressants
or these, uh, you know, I, people like me, uh, don't produce enough serotonin in our
brain and that's a mood stabilizer, you know, makes you happy, makes you, you know, whatever.
Um, so all these, uh, antidepressants and boot and, and boosters that I was on, uh,
weren't working and it was almost three years and then my play, uh, had also declined.
Uh, uh, you know, I was struggling so much off the ice and so it affected my own ice
performance and I eventually, uh, got sent to the miners.
And that's where, uh, you know, blessing in disguise, uh, yeah, you get sent to the miners.
But, uh, my first game in, in, in the miners, I didn't do very good.
I let him four goals on six shots and got pulled after the first period.
And I was like, I was devastated.
I'm like, I can't even play in the miners.
So I went into the, uh, coach's office at the end of the game and I'm in tears and I
said, I can't take this anymore.
I'm retiring.
And he was like, uh, his name was Rick Dudley.
He's still a prominent hockey figure in, in the NHL.
Anyways, uh, he says, well, what's going on?
And I'm like, I can't, I can't, you know, function and this on my mind.
I can't turn it off.
I was talking about the mental illness more than the, uh, the hockey thing.
And he says, oh, I thought you just came down here to get your game back and play a few
games and you go back to the NHL.
I said, not a chance, Rick.
I'm so screwed up.
Um, so by chance he, he, I don't know how they found them, but they found this great
doctor in San, this was in San Diego, um, that was a cutting edge leader in, in obsessive
compulsive disorder and, and these issues.
And uh, so they got me into see this guy, Dr. Stahl and, uh, I'll never forget him.
And he, he got, he said, son, you're going to be fine.
He was so confident and you got to remember James, I've been hearing this same crap for
three years.
Oh, you, you, you know, this struggle work district, you know, and they're trying to
be positive and helpful.
Um, but this guy was different.
He, he, he said, you're going to be fine.
And wrote me a prescription.
And uh, after six weeks, I was, I was living in California at the time, you know, playing
there.
And I'm, for the first time I'm noticing how nice it is outside and the sunshine and the
temperature.
That's how deep and dark, uh, my depression had gone at nine weeks on that medication,
my ruminating thoughts and, and all that, uh, were gone.
And that started a journey of about 14, 15 years of really, uh, enjoying life and, and
a feeling for the first time I said, is this what it feels like to be normal?
Yeah, and that was Zoloft.
Yes, it was.
Okay.
Cause I remember reading that was how doll and some other ones that weren't.
Well, the thing about how doll, I was playing with the Buffalo Sabres and you know, they're
trying different drugs and they put me on how doll.
Now how doll is highly sedative, which might be okay for some people, but not when you're
trying to stop a hundred mile an hour slap shot.
You know, it's just, uh, the last thing you need to be is sedate.
You need to be the other way.
Yeah.
Now, it's, it's really good to read this and find someone that, you know, took a, took a
med and it worked very well.
I know that there's obviously a but at the end of this sentence, but, um, you know, that
you found the right one and it did help.
And there are people out there, um, you know, that the counseling is all they need ultimately.
But then there's obviously the other side where the brain chemistry truly is at a place
where yeah, where, where you need the meds.
So, um, it was, I think very enlightening for me to read that, you know, this one didn't
work, this one didn't work, but then Zoloft did.
And it was, it was a good fit for you at that time.
Oh yeah.
And, and I, I do remember when it kicked in and started, I honestly said to myself, is
this what it feels like to be normal?
In some ways I was kind of mad because I feel like I missed, uh, uh, you know, had so much
anguish in my life for, you know, growing up and, and all that, all that time.
And now all of a sudden I get a drug and I'm like, this is all I needed.
But on the other hand, I was so grateful that, uh, I wasn't living that, that hell anymore
in my head and that it was gone.
So it was kind of a double edged sword there.
Yeah.
Now with, once you were on Zoloft, were you able to still get therapy or counseling and,
and did it help once you were in that better place mentally?
It did.
I did a lot of counseling, uh, some, uh, exposure therapy for like germs, you know, I want you
to touch the toilet, right?
With your hand.
No, I ain't.
Who's been on it?
Yeah.
You know, so I did all that kind of, all, all that thing, but the real kicker was the
meds.
Um, definitely, uh, how Dr. Stahl explained it to me, uh, I didn't, I don't produce enough
serotonin in my brain.
And uh, that's where, uh, this booster drug would, you know, make me get the right amount
of serotonin.
That'd be like a normal person.
And uh, I guess what, you know, some people don't like to, uh, take meds or anything,
but um, the alternative wasn't good, you know, to, to not take meds.
I was, I was suicidal, uh, depressed, anxious panic, you know, still not, uh, functioning
as a, as a normal person.
And so for, for me, uh, you know, people that, you know, criticize medication, um, I'm kind
of like, well, I don't like the alternative.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's horses for courses, isn't it?
It's, you know, there's no one size fits all.
And there's many people on here that have been struggling mentally that so many different
things have worked EMDR, equine therapy, you know, I mean, it could be anything, but there's
definitely that section as well where the pharmaceutical side is, is going to make a
difference either short term till they can get to a certain point or even longterm.
Yeah.
And, and that's what people, uh, sometimes get, well, I have to be on this drug the rest
of my life.
No, no, not necessarily.
Uh, it could be a short term, uh, you know, you just need a boost to get back to where
you should be and your body readjust somehow.
But uh, you know, you mentioned EMDR.
Um, so about, uh, it's been almost a year now.
I started to have the flashbacks, uh, waking up at night screaming.
Um, my wife was like, what's going on?
I'm not on.
Yeah.
It was, it was crazy.
So I, I don't know how I found out about it or whatever, but I went to a local psychologist
here that did EMDR and we did three sessions, one for my childhood, uh, trauma, one for
my jugular vein being severed trauma.
And then later on, uh, which we haven't talked about yet, but we probably will my suicide
attempt that trauma.
And uh, it was gone.
So check it out.
So, uh, EMDR, everything is, you know, some things work for some people and vice versa
and it's all over the map, but, uh, that really fixed up my flashbacks and I came back and
you know, could sleep.
That's so good to hear.
I'm actually, uh, my little boy is going to be going through EMDR, um, at a clinic locally
here.
Uh, he's had some, some trauma and he went through divorce.
He saw some things in the other household and you know, there's definitely some things
that I know will help him.
Um, cause he's, he's very mild, um, intrusive thoughts himself.
Well, for people that don't know what EMDR, it's eye movement desensitization reprocessing.
And again, James scientifically proven there's something with left, right, left, right with
your eyes and your brain.
And that's how this is all based.
All I know it worked is it worked for me of, uh, anybody struggling out there with, uh,
PTSD or symptoms, uh, you know, well, you know, we should just probably get it clear
right now, mental illness or for me, obsessive compulsive disorder or PTSD.
If you've got one of these things, you're going to have symptoms of the others.
Uh, you know, there's, there's such a crossover, um, that, you know, I've talked to a lot of
first responders and, and, uh, uh, military veterans and that, and we all, uh, talk about,
yeah, God, I get so depressed or get a little depressed or, you know, different degrees
or anxiety or panic attacks.
Oh yeah, I get that, but you know, different degrees, but the one common denominator that
we all go, holy moly, we sure have a lot of anger.
And for me, I can just, I think my anger, uh, and talking to all these guys and gals
is it, it's the inability to control your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings, and
you become very, very angry.
That's just my own theory.
Yeah, no, no, I can absolutely agree.
I see it not only in my, you know, men and women I've worked alongside, but in myself
as well.
And that's often how it would manifest, like I'd say probably the worst year of my life
was, um, working a very, very busy fire station and going through paramedic school and going
through a divorce, being a single dad, you know, and it was just all those stresses compressed
together.
And yeah, that was, that was my trigger.
I was ready to throw down with, with whoever, you know, and I think that's something that
does manifest very strongly with first responders.
Well, yeah, you know, um, I got a chance, uh, opportunity to speak in Niagara falls,
uh, uh, to the fire chiefs convention.
And then I went, and I think it was for Canada, all the fire chiefs in Canada.
And then, uh, I went up and I visited four different, uh, fire halls and just trying
to get guys because you're, you guys live together, your teammates, you guys and gals
are, you know, you're a team and, but also you're in a high testosterone type job, like
an athlete or a cop or military firefighters and paramedics.
Um, so you wear that Superman cape and you almost start to believe that your own, your
own BS, you know, I'm tough.
It doesn't affect me.
So I'm visiting these fire halls up in Toronto after, and you know, just, you know, being
an ex hockey player, especially in Canada, uh, they think it's a big deal, you know,
that you come to their fire hall and, and that, and what I was trying to get these guys
to do is be, uh, you know, so the, the alarm rings and they went out on a call and it was,
they come back, they're back in 30 minutes.
And uh, I said, how, what happened?
You guys are, you know, let's talk about this.
Oh, it's just a little fender bender.
We showed up and left.
Um, but then the one guy had, cause we'd been talking, I'd been kind of talking to these,
these guys and gals and, and the one guy got quite emotional and he said, you know, remember
about a month ago, I pulled that kid out of a car and he was dead.
It was a big car wreck.
And he says, I'm holding this kid in my arms and he's wearing the same t-shirt that his
son has and he's about the same age.
And he said, man, that, that rocked my world.
I really struggled.
And it was almost like everybody looked at him and said, well, why didn't you say something
buddy?
We understand, but they don't.
So then another guy opened up, he said, well, and I said, guys, that's what you got to do.
You guys, you all come back from one of these calls, you know, check in, especially if it's
a bad one and you've witnessed death and you know, who knows what kind of blood and gore.
Um, you know, talk about it.
You got to, we need to process things and let them go through our body, let them go
through our mind and, and come to some sort of a healing point.
Um, but we don't because society and the stigma with mental illness is such that, uh, oh,
you don't, you don't talk about stuff like that.
You don't cry.
You don't cry in public, you know, all these things.
And that goes back to our society.
I remember my dad raising a hand, I'd be, uh, cry, I was crying about something.
He raised his hand and said, I'll give you something to cry about.
In other words, he's, he's, he's saying physical pain.
Okay.
You can cry cause it hurts, but I was upset about something else and mentally or, you
know, emotionally, let's say.
And so right away from kids, we're, we're raised in our society that, uh, you, you,
you tough through this stuff.
You don't process it, you keep it inside and well, you know what happens there.
Uh, sooner or later it comes and bite you right in the butt.
Yeah.
Now what's your observation?
Cause I've talked about this quite a few times for me, I'm 45 now.
So like, I guess one generation behind you, um, when I was growing up, the, the versions
of a man was Rambo Schwarzenegger, you know, all these, and again, it was that men don't
cry, you know, right.
I just shot 20,000 Vietnamese with, you know, 10 bullets, you know, and I'm unaffected by
it.
And on the other end of that, the women, they grow up looking, thinking they got to look
like, uh, you know, these movie stars.
Yeah.
And be helpless and need men's help.
Right.
Yeah.
So, so what I find very interesting and it'd be interesting to hear your perspective on
this is the greatest generation as, as we call them.
I think it's absolutely an apt name, these men and women were doing incredible things.
You know, the men obviously were primarily overseas actually fighting the women's sit
right over into all the stereotypically male roles and kept this country, you know, working.
Um, and then, you know, it seems like the following generation, we, we went completely
backwards and it seems to me where that, that kind of mentality started in the forties,
all these different colors and creeds are fighting side by side against this, you know,
horrendous evil.
And in the fifties, we're stringing black people up on trees and, you know, demonizing
gay population and telling women they need to get back in the kitchen.
So I find it very strange understanding how we went from what must have been the most
immense gratitude post-World War II to then this distorted almost Victorian philosophy
on so many things.
And I think that's where the initial men don't cry stuff probably started.
Yeah.
And, and I also, I also think that, uh, you know, back in those days, let's, let's go
back a hundred years, even 120 years and all that life was about survival.
Life was about getting enough firewood for the winter for your cabin or wherever you
are, your farmhouse or, um, you know, it was, everything was about survival and then the
war against survival.
And then, you know, so where our society to me has come now, it's, it's about entertainment.
All we want to do is be entertained.
Whether you're on your phone playing a game, um, you know, watching videos and that, it,
we've lost a lot of that, uh, uh, you know, it used to be both survival.
I mean, people just, they had to, you know, uh, work and do whatever they could just for
survival and hopefully, uh, provide some comfort, some warmth for their home.
Um, you know, like I said, firewood even was a, was a priority and now it's a, it's a cell
phone and a video game.
Yeah.
Now that's a very interesting perspective.
And I think that that can be absolutely proven by the fact that when people who, for example,
have struggled mentally, go on these retreats with, you know, other veterans or other first
responders or go onto a horse ranch and ride for two weeks, they're tapping back into that
old school way of thinking.
I remember one day someone brought me a bunch of, uh, logs and then we had a fireplace in
my old house and I spent the day just with an axe and a wedge chopping all, basically
half a tree into, into firewood.
And it was one of the most therapeutic things I remember doing in a long time.
So, and, and on that point we could, we could also talk about, uh, meditation because a
lot of people, um, I read a book a while back called the untethered soul and you know, reading
is very good educational, you know, things like that.
So this book really spoke to me.
I don't know what it was.
You know, you read a book one time and then you reread it a year later and you go, Holy
smokes, this is a good book.
I didn't, it was that good, but you know, it's where you are in your life that things
will speak to you.
And anyways, that book really spoke to me and it kind of got me into slowing down and
to meditate.
And, and, but the thing is my point being is, uh, when we talk about meditation, a lot
of people go, Oh my God, I'm not going to sit cross-legged and go home.
No.
Uh, the meditation that you just talked about chopping that wood was a form of meditation.
I have a little emotional support dog and, uh, I've tried to tell my wife, you try meditating,
man.
You're doing really good.
And she was, Oh, I can't, I, you know, I can't turn my brain off or whatever.
Like so many other people say, and that's, that's fine.
But uh, every evening she put the, uh, my little emotional support dog in her bicycle
basket and the front handlebars and go for a bike ride.
And uh, I was doing a different form.
My meditation, I tried to do it, uh, more, um, structured, you know, like maybe sitting
on a chair or laying down.
I can do that, do that.
Sometimes I need to do that to fall asleep.
I need to meditate anyways.
Um, so I'm doing another form of my meditation.
I got a little patch of grass, uh, in front of my barn.
It doesn't have sprinklers or anything.
So I have to water it by hand all every day.
And uh, so that evening I'm, I'm, and I'm watching the, the, this, the, the water come
out, you know, that little droplets and how they separate.
And you know, so I'm kind of doing a form of meditation.
My wife comes back off her bicycle ride and I said, Hey, how was your meditation?
He goes, what are you talking about?
I wasn't meditating.
I said, no, you were.
That's what you do to feel good, to connect with the earth or connect with God or connect
with the animal in the basket or all of the above.
And so point being, don't get, don't get a lot of people get like a little bit like my
wife a little bit, uh, uh, you know, I don't know what the word would be weird.
Like a little bit weird about this word meditation.
Yeah.
Well, I do the same thing actually, um, every morning.
And it took me a little while to realize that I was doing exactly what you're talking about,
but my routine in the morning is walk my son to the bus, but I bring my dog with me and
then we carry on.
It's like a, probably a mile and a half walk.
Um, but I always leave my cell phone in the house and, and yeah, that's, that's basically
30 minutes with, you know, not distracted by anything.
And it's funny, it's a lap, two laps around this lake and it takes us the full first lap
is kind of clearing all the monkey mind.
And then the second lap is actually kind of, you know, still somewhat.
I mean, obviously you still got thoughts, but yeah, absolutely.
I agree a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And I'm doing the equine therapy now.
I'm trying to get my certification, uh, because it's been, uh, really, really helpful with
our, uh, first responders and military with trauma PTSD, uh, doing this equine therapy.
So that's kind of my goal right now.
Right.
Well, I sent you the link.
I just had Buck Braneman on the show.
Um, and yeah, another amazing guy.
And again, he wasn't going down that road specifically to do equine therapy, but it's
exactly what it did for him and then ultimately he's doing with these other people.
And I think it's one of the things he says is the horse, a horse is a mirror to your
soul and I can absolutely agree.
Well, they're very intuitive animal and if, uh, they'll pick up on your energy and you
can pick up on theirs if you get into, um, yeah, they're very, very intuitive and very
helpful in the sequine therapy that we are doing.
Um, I had a chance to do a, uh, this was, oh shoot, 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago,
I got a military contract to actually teach soldiers how to, you know, catch a horse,
ride a horse, bridle horse, saddle horse, you know, all that stuff.
And unbeknownst to me, they were going to Afghanistan to look for bin Laden in the caves
on horseback.
And of course, military is very secretive.
All I had to do is teach these soldiers, uh, what to do with the horse unbeknownst to me
where they were going and what they were doing.
And uh, that's where I always touch on the military and first responders, uh, because,
uh, those types of jobs, um, how mentally tough do you have to be James to do those
jobs?
You have to be very, very mentally tough because you're, you're, you're living in danger almost
every day.
You know, if you're a firefighter, you might have to run into a building, you know, that's,
you know, I know you're trained and you, you know, do it the right way and everything,
but there's always a danger and there are military, uh, police, all these things are
high dangerous jobs.
And so our trauma with these individuals, I think it's a lot of, uh, um, yeah, there
could be a major event, but a lot of time, I think it's a cumulative trauma.
Uh, remember the guys I talked about the firefighter, pulled the little boy out of
a car, uh, you know, he, he never talked about that for a month.
That was the first time he opened up about it.
Well, what happens is that stuff gets stuck in us and it's all because of the stigma.
Uh, we'll got to be tough.
I don't want my, uh, my fellow firefighters and fire gals and, uh, to, um, you think I'm
weak and it's not a weakness.
It's a sickness.
The most mentally tough people and I'll use the military on this, on this one, mentally
tough, they're going to a job, they, they, they could die.
And so they go over and they fight the, from Af, just Afghanistan and Iraq, we had, it
was up to 22 suicides a day from our veterans, those veterans, just those two wars.
And I think it's down to 19 now, cause I think we're, we're, we're progressing, getting them
help.
But, uh, it, it, so my point being is most mentally tough people in the world and yet
they, they come back and they're damaged and they self medicate and die by suicide 22 a
day.
Uh, that tells me one thing.
It doesn't matter how tough you are or think you are.
It has nothing to do with that.
It is a sickness or an injury from, uh, an event or, uh, a bunch of events that have
happened that is accumulated and it's now sick and it's in you.
It's got nothing to do with how strong you are because, uh, we've just, just my examples
there have proven that.
Yeah.
And I love, I love the fact that I get so many people who, you know, we revere as a
man, you know, whether it's a Navy seal, you know, firefighter, police officer, you
know, uh, uh, NHL goalkeeper like yourself and enforcer as well, um, saying, no, this
is not weakness.
This is not being a pussy.
This is a real thing and forget about this facade of what a man's supposed to be like,
because that's bullshit.
This is what a man's supposed to be like.
He's supposed to be tough and be able to chop wood and protect his family, but also, you
know, compassionate.
And if you're going to be compassionate, then you're going to be affected by things that,
you know, uh, traumatic.
I mean, that's what humans are supposed to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.
But the thing is we don't process, uh, these things because we were stuck being that tough
person.
So we just keep it inside, keep it inside and keep it inside.
We don't process it.
You, we just keep lying to ourselves saying, oh, I'm tough.
It doesn't, oh, that doesn't bother me.
Oh, that, oh, come on.
Uh, so you come home from work and, uh, Hey honey, how was your day?
Great.
No problems.
Really?
What did you see that day?
Uh, you know, you might've seen several dead people, you know, things.
How was your day?
Oh, mine.
Just another day at the office.
Are you kidding me?
So we got to learn to, uh, to process these things and let them, and that's really what
changed my, my whole, uh, PTSD and all that was the acceptance.
Number one and number two, doing something to, uh, to get well.
Yeah.
So you, you touched on obviously the suicide attempt.
So you were just to go back for a bit, you, you were prescribed Zoloft.
You, it was very successful for a number of years.
Kind of lead us through, you know, what, what happened where it, where it started not meeting
the need anymore.
Well, there's a couple, a couple of things.
Number one, uh, you know, I was on that drug for 14, 15 years and doing great.
Uh, but you know, I just thought that's all I had to do.
So I didn't, I didn't check in with Dr. Stahl, my psychiatrist, you know, by now what my
career has moved on.
Uh, I'm not in San Diego.
I'm in the NHL coaching.
Um, you know, and when you have a team doctor, all you do is say, Hey, I need a prescription
refilled and they do it.
Uh, I'm being honest to them that, you know, and, and to me, I didn't know I was supposed
to be, uh, keeping a check on this and how are my moods?
Um, so over that time period, uh, my body started to get immune to the drug.
The drug was not working, uh, gradually over time.
And then another hockey player cut his jugular vein in a hockey game in Buffalo, same town.
Um, and I'm coaching in the NHL, so I'm very media accessible and the questions are coming
to me fast and furious, you know, relive that relive that.
What was it like?
What should he do?
What blah, blah, blah.
And the other thing, um, and my, and the combination of that and my drug not working, uh, led me
into a spiral downward depression wise, anxiety wise, uh, everything started to just come
back and, uh, you know, being the tough guy, I just said, well, I'll have, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
Uh, I'll have a couple of beers.
And for me, that's what alcohol did.
It would calm me down or, or bring me up if I was depressed.
And, uh, so I started drinking a lot.
I was drinking heavily throughout the day just to get through the day.
And uh, that's when one day I was, uh, I was up all night.
I'd been drinking all night and all half of the day.
Uh, it was about two 30 in the afternoon and I went behind the barn and I had a gun and
I was shooting targets anyways, off and on.
And, um, I put it under my chin and my wife had actually showed up and said, what is going
on?
She could tell cause I was just sweating and antsy and, and, you know, just like, like
a caged animal almost, uh, just not liking and, and, and like a lot of suicide survivors,
uh, that I've spoken with, you know, I didn't want to die, but I didn't want to live in
this pain anymore.
So not even knowing if there's any more bullets in the gun, I put it under my chin and I told
her, this is what I feel like doing, turning this goddamn brain off.
And I pulled the trigger and yeah, there was a bullet in it.
Um, very, very lucky.
Uh, it, uh, it lodged in my skull and, uh, you know, it was, uh, it was there that I
really, I'd gone at that time, 20 years of undiagnosed PTSD and it took that.
And my wife was trying to get me help and you know, uh, we were getting turned down
here and, oh, we don't take your insurance and this and that and all sorts of things.
Oh, he can't see for three months, this, uh, one doctor.
And anyways, so, uh, I got sent to a treatment center.
I went to the hospital, I was put in, they put me in a coma, uh, for a couple of weeks
and let the swelling go down.
Once I got to that hospital, they sent me to a treatment center, a dual diagnosed treatment
center and that was the first time I was ever diagnosed with PTSD.
And at first, James, I was so insulted.
PT, why do I have PTSD?
What are you talking about?
And she said, well, you got, you know, you jugular vein cut and you didn't have any counseling.
You came back so quick.
And I said, and I said, you don't understand.
My ego being an athlete, a former athlete, now coach, you know, just was like, I came
back in 10 days, you bitch, you know, I was so insulted that, you know, she was almost,
it was like that label would be making me a week.
And uh, the, the, the big thing is I read a book on trauma.
Uh, she gave it to me cause she wasn't getting, I was in there six months.
I mean, that's half a year.
Uh, I was pretty damaged in the first two months.
I was just a mean, angry guy and she couldn't get through to me.
And I, she gave me a book and I read this one chapter on how, uh, on trauma and how
animals actually process trauma through if there, there's fight, flight and freeze.
And if an animal is caught and goes into freeze and fools the predator, uh, it can get away.
But what it does is it shakes violently and that's the animal way and we're animals too.
And we animal processed is trauma.
And I didn't, I, I read that and I'm starting to think about it.
And my wife's come to visit me in, uh, we live in Nevada, so she's coming over the mountains
into California where I was, uh, the treatment center was, and she got in a little fender
bender and she was so proud how she was describing, Oh, just a little fender bender.
But she's so proud because the cops came, she filled out a little report and she's like,
and then her whole demeanor went negative and depressive saying, and then I got in the
car and I just started to shake.
And then I cried and I went, Oh my God, the story about how animals process and how she
just processed trauma.
That's what we're supposed to do.
But in, in a lot of, uh, you know, in society, we don't do that.
And especially in, in the high testosterone jobs, like first responders and military,
we're, we're, we're geared to be that tough as so be and not process, you know, as harmful
because we're not educated on it.
And that's where my education came in and it was a long and hard, hard journey, but
that's what it took for me to get, uh, to, to, first of all, uh, acceptance was huge.
I had to accept that I had this PTSD and I had to accept also that it was, uh, I don't
want to say curable it is, but, um, manageable to curable.
Yeah.
And interestingly you say about the, the fight, flight and freeze.
Cause I had a conversation with a guy who's actually a movement specialist, like a coach,
physical coach, um, but very, very, uh, philosophical as well.
And he talks about that even in the mental health element where you talk about suicide.
So you've got, um, you know, fight obviously is when you're dealing with whatever trauma
there is.
Flight is kind of like that, uh, uh, like you were saying, burying it, you know, not,
not addressing it, but then freeze was with a point where the, the body's given up, you
know, just accepting the death.
Like you said, the, the deer that's been caught at that point in a way they've already accepted
death, but if you can, if they get away and they can process it, then they go back to
to flow or fight again.
But it was fascinating because with so many people, and I'm sure you've had this with
the survivors you've spoken to people speak about getting to that point of calm when they
realize, you know what, I am going to take my life at that moment.
It seems like the right decision.
And then they're almost in like a flow state for a moment.
But then as, as just reported over and over again, if they thank God survived that attempt
right when they were pulling the trigger, jumping off the bridge, whatever it was, they
realize that it's wrong and they have the instant regret that they don't want to die.
And I totally had that instant regret.
And I know a guy, Kevin Hines, he's a, he's a pretty renowned speaker.
He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and he said the second his hands left the railing,
he regretted it and he survived amazingly.
You know, that's a, that's a big splash that one.
Yeah.
You know, uh, and I'm assuming you have a lot of first responders that, uh, listen to
you and your podcast.
Um, interestingly, uh, somehow one of the paramedics, uh, she was the first, first one
on the site after I shot myself.
She was the first, her and her partner were the first there and, uh, she connected with
my wife somehow on Facebook.
I don't know.
It had been, uh, maybe, maybe four or five years ago.
Um, and she came over, we invited her over and we're sitting outside on the patio and,
and uh, she's into horses and that.
So she loved my place and, and everything.
So it was interesting to hear her side of what happened.
First of all, they're on a call, the cops, the fire paramedic, everybody's showing up
and all they know is, is it is a gunshot.
My wife phoned it in and said, my husband just shot himself.
But do they know that's the truth?
They are thinking maybe she shot him.
Maybe they do not know what they are going, uh, in, into.
And that, the adrenaline in itself is probably traumatic.
You know, I mean, you're going to a situation where you don't know what it is.
And uh, incredible that we, we became friends and now we do a, uh, through her, we do a,
uh, what they call a CIT training.
We speak at, uh, to first responders.
Um, what is CIT?
Uh, crisis intervention training, I think.
CIT.
And yeah, and, and it's interesting cause you know, I got educated on what you guys
and gals are going into.
And of course she heard my side of the story, you know, about, uh, I didn't even know if
the gun was loaded and that.
So interesting.
Yeah.
Well, and I'm reading the book as well, that part where when everyone first arrived, your
wife was, you know, hanging on to you and they weren't sure if, like you said, she was
a shooter and they were trying to get her away from you.
And I can imagine, I mean, the potential of that going wrong in itself.
Or you hear about, uh, suicide by cop.
Maybe she was thinking, if I let him go, he's going to rush the cops and get shot and die.
You know what I mean?
There who knows?
Like that, that was such a dramatic event and traumatic and not, you know, for me, of
course, I just shot myself from my wife who just saw me do it for the first responders
that are showing up and not knowing what the hell is going on.
Uh, you know, a lot of trauma going on in, in, in that short time.
Absolutely.
Well, and speaking of the shooting, you still have the bullet in your skull.
Is that right?
Yeah, I do.
Yep.
That's a hell of a reminder.
Every time you have an X-ray.
Yeah, I do have an X-ray of it and I do use it out in my keynote speeches that I do a
lot of public speaking now.
So when I show it, um, it, it's just, uh, I, I usually, uh, start to get choked up because
it just, uh, you know, how that should have been my third time dead, you know?
So how grateful am I, you know, and, and that's why I do what I do.
That's why I wrote my book.
That's why I public speak is I know there's people out there that were just like me suffering
in silence and darkness and because of the stigma, they don't want to step out, uh, and
tell anybody.
And it's amazing how many people can relate, you know, I always tell people, you may not
be mentally ill, but I know, you know, what depression is because if you ever lost a loved
one or went through a divorce or, you know, the, the, the things that life throws at us,
you know, depression to a degree, you may not be clinically depressed, but so we all
can relate.
And then it comes to that, those two words, me too, you know, somebody, uh, actually,
uh, divulges some, some issues that they're going through.
You're not going to have the answers.
And, and, you know, I've seen enough psychologists and counselors that they don't always have
the answer right away either, but the words you say to those people is me too, because
if you're honest with yourself, you've dealt with some things in your life where you can
relate to a mentally ill person, even if it's not mentally illness on your side.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's something that's come up over and over and over again is if, if we're the ones
doing okay, you know, and, and we want to create an environment where we allow each
other to be able to speak out, you can't just go, are you all right?
Yeah.
All right, good.
You know, you have to open the door and then, and then be vulnerable.
And that's what's so great with people like you that are out there telling your story
is, you know, again, if we can start with saying, I can think of a call that I've talked
about a few times on this of a three-year-old that was decapitated in a, in a car accident,
you know, and I've had that flash before me, you know, once before in the middle of a theme
park, completely different, but a kid was actually wearing the same things.
But yeah, I mean, we all have those me too things.
And if we want our men and women to be able to reach out, start with an anecdote of a
time that you've struggled that immediately will open the door and make people realize
I'm not being weak.
And then as everyone else chimes in with their stories, you're all going to realize that
every single one of you has gone through this at some point.
Well, you know, when I do my public speaking and that I tell my story, but then I have
to tell people what I do to keep my balance today.
Knowing that I struggle with, you know, depression, anxiety, OCD and all these things.
What keeps me obviously the first one I do take medication.
I I've learned meditation.
I work out.
If I'm, if I'm, if I'm going to spiral downward, I have to be in tune with myself to know that
I'm going down like I did about a year ago.
And I went, okay, I'm going to check this EMDR out.
And the biggest thing, and I think you could probably relate to this James is, is being
a service, uh, being, being vulnerable, uh, being compassionate, empathetic, whatever
you can be for people.
And, and like you doing this podcast is being a service and it probably, you know, as much
as it probably helps people to hear these talks, it helps you too, to know that you're,
you're, you went through things and now let's use those things in a positive way.
Now you've come out the, out of the darkness and you're functioning better than you were
or whatever it might be.
I'm kind of speaking for me.
Um, you know, I always say God spared me for those that are still suffering.
And that's why you, that's why I wrote the book was to help people.
And you know, what's remarkable, I knew it helped, you know, touch some people here and
there, the emails and the feedback that I've gotten, um, and, and still the book's been
out four or five years and I still get emails and, and messages and that I never realized
how many Clint Mallard trucks are out there.
There is so many people that struggle.
So many people and they're doing it in darkness and silence and people like you and me are
trying to, you know, say, Hey, it's okay.
Let's, let's talk about it.
Let's get it out there.
Let's get some help.
Yeah, exactly.
And like you said, me too, sadly, that phrase kind of got ruined a little bit when, when
Hollywood ran with it.
But um, you know, and there were reasons for that, but that's exactly it.
I think me too is the human experience and, and, you know, your book and Buck's book and
you know, all these other books and these people doing these talks and these documentaries
are slowly building this huge library of respected men and women that are saying, this is not
abnormal.
Like this is the human experience and some of us may have this for two weeks after someone
that you thought was going to be your husband or your wife dumped you or you lost, you know,
a partner or a child or there's just so many faces to this trauma and some obviously are
extreme, some, um, a minor, some you can treat with, with counseling, some you need medication
for, but to feel alone and to feel like you're weak, those are the things that we need to,
to get rid of because both of those complete fallacies.
Yeah.
There's a phrase, uh, sick, not weak, you know, and just like any, I mean, and that
goes back to though, if you're say, uh, sick with, let's say you got a broken arm or everybody
can go, Oh my God, I know that hurts.
Oh gee.
But not everybody can see, uh, and, and, and understand the mental illness cause it's such
a silent, uh, uh, and we hide it so well because, because of the stigma, we don't want people
to know that we're struggling in any way because of the stigma that it's a weakness and it's
not no, not at all.
And it's, it's so great to see over and over and over again, the most, one of the most
healing factors is always just like you said, be able to give back.
These people go through these dark places.
They find themselves at a point where they can write a book, they can start speaking
and then they wake up every day with a purpose now.
And so even though, like you said, they're out there helping people that, that process
is absolutely helping.
And you're absolutely right with me in this podcast.
Like I, I get to talk to people like you, you know, two, three times a week.
So I'm constantly getting counseling as well as being able to put this, this podcast out.
Well said.
You said we are our, we are our own best counselors in unity, the unity that we, you know, doing
this conversation and that, I mean, you don't think I'm going to feel better about it.
Hell yeah.
I'm going to feel real good about this.
And I know you are too.
Yeah.
A lot of times, you know, when I say being of service is my greatest healer now, as,
as much a toll that it can take on me at times, uh, hearing people's stories and, and, and,
you know, I don't really try to give advice.
I just try to give support.
And then like I say, yeah, I know what that feels like me too, you know?
Um, but a lot of people get intimidated by that being a service because they got three
kids, four dogs, the kids are playing sports.
They got school for the kids, their job, you know, and I have no time to join the rotary
club or, or, or the, uh, you know, the community charity or whatever.
No, no, being a service is, is starts with opening the door for someone being, being
smile when you really don't feel like you might want to smile, but you know, uh, being
try to be cheerful when you, you know, because it pulls you out of yourself and into other
people and, and you don't know what it does for those people.
Everybody's fighting a battle.
You know, nothing about.
Absolutely.
And it's just, it's kindness and compassion again.
I talk about this a lot.
We, we seem to have this society now where we expect the people in the houses of parliament
or the white house or the Kremlin, you know, wherever you are on planet earth to fix your
country.
And that's completely backwards.
You walk outside your front door and you find someone that you can help that day.
And then if we all do that, my God, this place is going to change.
Really?
And I call it baby steps.
I mean, like you said, walk out the front door, you know, and be grateful, you know,
um, you know, I, I was going through a tough time in the last couple of days, just, I was
hit, hit one of those down and I got this guy that I, I became friends with, uh, through
AA and he's got one leg, uh, and, and half a foot on the other side.
And you know what?
I, I said, Clint, why are you, you know, I'm grateful that I'm not in his.
Wheelchair, you know?
Uh, so to be grateful, I think is a great, is a good thing too.
Um, you know, it could always be worse, right?
You know, um, there's some people that are, they're, they're beginning their journey through
the darkness that I've been through.
So I want to be there for them, you know, and, and say, you know what?
There's light, there's light at the end of the tunnel and you can be happy and productive
and you know, functioning, you just going through a bad time.
Yeah.
And I think gratitude is a very undervalued, um, you know, thought process for lack of
a better word, because as you mentioned, you know, a hundred years ago, we were trying
to make sure we had, you know, fire for warmth and food for, for our children.
And we do have this, this kind of different pull now where all our devices are telling
us we need bigger houses, bigger cars, you know, more stuff, fancier clothes.
Um, you know, and we're losing sight of the facts of what we do have, you know, we're
being told what we don't have.
And that's the totally wrong way of looking at it.
When you wake up in the morning, you're like, well, I wake up in a country that's not a
war at the moment.
And there's food in my fridge and a roof over my children's head.
You know, I mean, that's, there's so many things to be grateful for, but it's, it's
taken for granted.
We do.
And it, and it takes a deliberate thing.
I'm not saying I wake up like, you know, a Disney movie and to start dancing around the
house, but, but, you know, we, we need to take that moment to go.
I'm so thankful for X, Y, and Z. And if you start your day with that every day, that definitely
helps your mental health too.
Yeah.
I got a, I got an uncle, he's 95.
He, uh, he flew bombers, uh, in world war two and he was shot down twice.
And when he came home, um, you know, in these small towns at noon and at six o'clock, the,
uh, the firehouse, uh, will sound the siren.
Uh, they do that in small towns even today.
I don't know why, I guess it's just telling them it's 12 o'clock or six o'clock, but,
I guess when he came back, he would be under the table shaking, uh, because it was that
siren that, uh, like a air raid.
And uh, you know what, he never talked about the war or anything until about 10, 12 years
ago.
Uh, he just kept it inside and a great man and he's had a really good life and everything.
I'm not even sure what I'm telling, why I'm telling that story.
I think it's about gratitude that this man, uh, uh, went to war, uh, shot down twice,
once behind enemy lines, uh, you know, crash landed and what he went through with his PTSD
and, and all those things.
I mean, I'm so grateful for our, uh, you know, our freedom and the people that gave it to
us.
I mean, I'm not sure what kind of life he had, you know, mentally, cause he didn't talk
about it, but, uh, you know, I'm just grateful that he, he, he went through that and I didn't.
Yeah.
And we get to reap the rewards.
There's a gentleman I've just been told about who lives locally here, who was one of the
sailors on one of the ships that was bombed at Pearl Harbor and he actually survived.
Basically his entire ship pretty much died and he was one of the survivors in the shark
ridden wars.
I'm hoping I'm going to be able to sit down with him, but yeah, that sadly that's the
thing is that you don't often hear stories of those men, you know, and then I talk about
this frequently, you know, you watch band of brothers.
Have you ever seen that, that, um, show and the real men of the 101st are talking at the
end of each episode and it's so sad now cause we've just, we've got no one else to storytell
anymore and that's such an important generation that gave so much for us to have this life.
And if we're not grateful, you know, we, people you say thank you for your service.
It's almost like lip service.
It's like, but are you really grateful?
You know, what are you doing to make the world better in memorial of all those people that
lay down their lives for you?
Um, but what, two things I want to talk about.
Firstly, we were just talking about gratitude.
One thing that struck me in it and I wanted to make sure that we talked about this is
after you went back on the ice, after your injury, you talk about fans behind the goal
line, you know, doing the, the throat cutting motion and then, and then later when, you
know, when you made it public that you were having a mental health battle, the people
were making all the crazy pills, uh, comments and things.
And for you, why do you think it is that there can be so much cruelty when it comes to sports?
Cause I, coming from England, I remember, you know, multiple times if there was a black
player they'd start throwing bananas on the pitch and that kind of thing.
And I never understood that, you know, this is a game that you're supposed to enjoy just
watching.
Having been through that not only as an athlete, but then as a coach, what's your perception
on that and then now the same thing we can apply to the social media trolling as well.
Well, I think first of all, the people that do that are probably the most insecure.
And you know, we talk about bullying and society today with kids and the internet and all that.
I always feel really bad for the kid that's being bullied, but I also think, man, why is
a bully a bully?
You know, and I think it's, you know, insecurities, uh, things that are going on in his home.
Maybe, uh, maybe he's being abused by his father, you know, cut down, uh, ridiculed.
So I think it's somewhat of a learned behavior, but I think it's also just, uh, uh, something
makes people feel better about themselves if they can knock somebody down because they
inside are very, very insecure.
Yeah, I agree.
I really do.
And that's sad.
I mean, I mean, I think we all can, uh, you, I've met some people that I thought were super
confident and then once you get to know them, you start talking about things and they go
Clint, I thought you were the most confident.
I go, well, I thought you, you're shit together.
You know what I mean?
And uh, I think, I think it's something people just struggle, uh, with, you know, within
themselves.
Yeah.
And, and I think it, it, when they can do public display or internet bullying or whatever,
it somehow, uh, makes them feel better about themselves.
And that's very, very sad, I think.
Yeah, no, I do as well, but that, that phrase hurt people, hurt people.
I think there's a lot to that and you know, most bullies are, are, you know, compensating.
We have all these different ways of filling that void, whether it's drugs, alcohol, porn.
I think that the bullying is another one that you've, you've got some, some part of your
soul missing and being cruel is what you've chosen to do.
I think it's a very poor choice, but it's something that you see a lot.
Yeah.
And I don't think it's a conscious choice for them.
I just think they do it, uh, because it's, it's like anything that makes them feel better
about themselves.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Well, thank you for that perspective.
Now, I want to touch on one more thing before we, we go to the closing questions.
The only one we haven't spoken to who has been on your side through this whole journey
is Joni.
So, um, from her perspective, what, what is it that made her stay, stay with you?
You know, what, what kind of, uh, uh, what's the best way I put it?
You know, I could, I know what you're asking and I, I just think that, uh, you know, I'm,
I'm, I'll be just honest with you.
I'm a really, really good person.
I give the shirt off my back.
Um, when they put me in the state mental hospital for a three day lockdown, I was asking Joni
to come up and bring all my tracksuits up.
And she goes to be there for three days.
They keep asking me to bring clothes, uh, because I found out in that state mental hospital,
most of the people were on a 72 hour hold like me, but they were schizophrenic and they
were homeless.
So I was getting all these NHL tracksuits that you accumulate over the years.
You just get them all the time.
And so my point being is I am a very good person and I literally will give you the shirt
off my back.
Um, uh, and I, to answer your question, she saw that side of me too.
She knows that, uh, you know, like I talked about my friend the other day that he has
no way to get around.
So yesterday I took him shopping and to Walmart and you know, cause he's in a wheelchair and
he needs help.
And, uh, she sees that in me, but she also saw the sick and dark side.
And uh, I guess she just always knew that there was, you know, probably that, that illness,
uh, was nothing but an illness.
And I, and her, her, her parents were very intelligent and they told her, so you know
what Clint is sick.
He is really got to get some help and, um, he's a good guy.
And you know, I was like a son to my, my father-in-law, you know, he never had a boy.
So they knew there was a good side to me and Joni obviously, uh, had their support, uh,
which was, you know, crucial because I was, I was abusive.
I was verbally abusive to her because that's what we do.
You know, he got all that anger and who do you take?
The things I said to her, if I said it to my best friend, he punched me in the nose.
You know, so we, you know, we always take it out on the, the ones closest to us, I guess.
Um, yeah, she deserves a lot of credit for sure.
I mean, she went through hell, uh, with me and I'm just trying to answer your question.
She also saw the real compassionate side.
I mean, I do a lot of charity, you know, I'm a good person and I'm not, uh, ashamed to
say that because I've also been a bad person, uh, with my illness.
So you know, I'm just honest and that's what I like.
Uh, my book was described as very raw and I like, wow, at first I was like, I don't
know if that's a compliment or, and then I thought, you know what?
And a week before the book came out, uh, uh, on the marketplace, I remember talking to
the ghostwriter, the co-writer that, you know, writ, wrote the book with me and I'm, I'm
standing out in my barn and I just started to cry.
And I mean, I cried like a baby, you know, so scared.
And uh, he says, no Clint, this is going to be great.
It's coming out next week and we're excited.
And I was like, just, I told way too much because I did.
I mean, I, I, I'm glad I did now, but I was petrified at the, at the thought that, you
know what?
I've, I've said everything about my deep, because darkest demons, my insecurities, my,
uh, um, all those things, you know, my failed marriages.
Um, I mean, I, I, I told everything and I'm glad I have, I was so scared a week before
it came out, but now I'm, I'm so it's, it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but
the, the greatest thing I've ever done too.
Yeah.
Well, and then the reason I asked that question about, um, Joni, I had another guest, Chris
Fields and Chris was the firefighter in the very tragically iconic, uh, picture from the
Oklahoma bombing.
So he was the one holding the dead baby.
Um, and so when you talked about the, uh, Richard Zednik getting his throat cut in 2008
and then everything, you know, being dragged back up again, he had the same thing on anniversaries.
You know, the picture was always front and center and, um, but his wife, Cheryl, despite,
you know, Chris talks about on the, on the podcast about infidelity and, and, uh, alcohol
and everything and she's stuck by him.
So it wasn't like a question like, well, why does she stay with you?
You know, as in she should have left.
It was showing that in these relationships, when the man or the woman is going through
a mental health struggle and it may manifest in, in violence or, um, obviously violence
is a trickier one, but, or, or alcoholism or drug abuse that rather than going, this
person's a piece of shit, I need to leave.
Understanding, like you said, that there might be an illness there.
And if you can find the right avenues that you can save your marriage, you can be more
resilient after.
And I love it when I hear of a marriage like that, when the man or the woman has stood
by their partner, knowing that they're fighting a battle and they've come out the other end.
Yeah, I, and it, it, it, there's, there's so many different things that can go into
that question.
Like what makes a person like Joni stay with, with me when I was at my craziest.
Um, you know, and, and what's interesting is she had, she grew up in the, you know,
date myself, the Beaver Cleaver household, you know, perfect mom, perfect dad, um, all
American.
She had a military family, so they did move a lot.
Um, but, uh, just, I don't know, something in her life, maybe it was the moving, making
new friends, leaving other friends, you know, that influenced her, uh, personality to stay
with somebody like me.
I don't know.
And, uh, she had her family, like I said, no alcohol, drugs, no, um, abuse, no, you
know.
And so it's kind of weird that, you know, she somehow understood what I was going through.
Yeah.
No, it's amazing.
But I think again, that that's, that's something that needs to be put out there.
I mean, I've talked about, um, you know, our, our drug policy at the moment, we take addicts
and we lock them away.
And I've had people on the show from other countries where they've changed that policy,
where they realized that addiction is a mental health issue and they take those people and
their patients, not criminals, and they, they filter them through, you know, addiction programs
and counseling and job creation.
And you know, these conversations are so great because I think we're starting to change the
stigma on that too.
I mean, the, at the drug addiction is a public, oh, that's illegal.
Therefore you go to jail and then you have the elephant in the room, which is the alcoholism,
which I think is a, you know, a much greater problem.
Um, but you know, if we're not addressing the mental health underneath and we're just
having a quote unquote war on drugs or whatever it is, we're never going to, uh, change the
underlying factor, which is we have a huge amount of mental illness in this country and
it needs to be addressed.
Well, you know, the other thing too, you know, a lot of people have gone through stages in
their life.
You know, they, they go to college and, uh, they experiment with drugs and drink beer
and do this and that, and then they grow out of it.
They, you know, they do that for a year or two, whatever, as part of college life maybe.
And that's what people think.
Well, you know what?
I went through that, I quit and I stopped.
It's, it's the people like, uh, well, like me that used alcohol, um, as my medication.
It, it, I wasn't out partying.
I mean, I was, I was drinking in my barn home alone in my barn, you know?
Um, so I'm not partying.
I'm doing it for the effect of, of relief from whatever I'm going through, whether it
was the depression or anxiety or panic or OCD, you know, and that is definitely mental
illness.
I'm self medicating to feel good.
I mean, and when you really think about it, uh, people that do get into drugs or alcohol,
I use alcohol because as my example, cause it was my choice of, of poison.
Um, you're, you're feeling, let's say James, you're feeling like crap.
You're feeling depressed or really anxious or, you know, choose whatever you want.
And you got an empty hand and you look at it and go, okay, this is what I'm going through.
And then you look at the other hand and you got a bottle of beer and you look at one hand,
another hand, go feel good, feel shitty, feel good, feel shitty, feel good.
I'm going to feel good.
And you'll drink.
I, that, that's my, my example of me.
You know, I used it to feel rather than feel shitty.
Again, whatever it was, I was going through, um, anxiety, depression, panic, OCD.
The beer was the stabilizer.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I hope that, you know, as we break the stigma down on, on mental health, that we'll
realize that addiction is, you know, completely tied in with that.
Oh, it's, it's, it's so, it's so tied in with, uh, addiction.
You know, I don't think I would have became an alcoholic.
I mean, I got up to 25, 30 beers a day and I know you're from England and I'm from Canada,
but you know, so I'll just say that was American beer.
So it was like eight beers.
Um, and you know, that was just to get through a day.
I mean, I was just trying to get through a day.
I wasn't enjoying the day.
I was trying to just get through a day and you know, unfortunately then what started
off as two or four and then eight beers and then 12, you know, it just, the bar gets higher
because you, you just get, uh, uh, it just takes more and more of the beer to make me
feel where I'm, you know, doing okay.
Yeah.
And I found I'm not, I'm a very casual drinker, high frequency, low amount usually.
Um, but yeah, I'll, I'll notice that even that it'll creep in like, Oh, maybe I have
one with lunch.
And the moment I get that, I'm like, okay, no, no, no time to get back again.
Cause it is, it's a very, a very slippery drug and, and you know, it seems to want to multiply.
And like you said, and we all know that there's a tolerance side to it.
I mean, everyone knows that alcoholic that can put away a, you know, tie a bottle of
vodka and still function normally.
So it's a terrifying drug when you think about it.
Oh, it is.
And I've definitely been down that road and still have to address it.
Uh, you know, in my life today.
Brilliant.
Well, I just want to thank you so much.
I want to make sure that we highlight the book itself.
So your book is a matter of inches.
So where can people find that?
Uh, Amazon, probably some bookstores still might have it, you know, books, uh, they,
they last three, you know, two, two years on a shelf and then new books come out.
So probably Amazon is the best way.
Um, in Canada, it's actually a different title.
It's called the crazy game.
And originally it was a Canadian publisher, Harper Collins that did the book.
Uh, and then they, uh, had interest from the U S but the U S didn't like the word crazy.
And I didn't either at first, but, uh, anyways, they changed it to a matter of inches, which,
uh, to me sounds like a porn, but, um, yeah, that's, that was a wild, uh, you, you know,
you write a book, you think you got all control on title and whatever you do have some, but
they're very convincing on, on a lot of things.
Right.
Yeah.
It still works though.
I mean, I get the whole porn thing, of course.
And, you know, with the hockey mask, it could definitely be an S and M quality to it, but
no, it is, and it's just, it's such a great book.
And like you said, it is raw and it's very honest and that is what people need to connect
with.
And I literally binge read it in about three days.
So I highly recommend everyone listening to get that, um, on the subject of books, I always
love to ask as well, is there another book that you love to recommend that someone else
has written?
Well, yes.
And I mentioned it earlier, the untethered soul, Michael Singer.
Um, it, it, that book really, really spoke to me.
Um, you know, I've read the four agreements.
It's another good book.
Uh, it's a short read, but the matter, uh, the, the one, the, uh, untethered soul, uh,
it, it, it spoke to me and I've read it like 10 times.
I've highlighted it.
I've given it away and had to reread and highlight.
And yeah, it's some of, some of it's a little out there, but some of it is bang on, um,
you know, at least for me, we're, we're where I am.
Then, you know, it doesn't tell you how to meditate, but it tells you, uh, you know,
how the world is spinning so fast in front of us and we're not living in the moment.
It's more of a mindful mindfulness book to be in the moment.
Excellent.
All right.
Well, I will put that on the show notes along with all the other ones that we've talked
about.
Um, so the same question though, is there a movie that you love?
Oh, you know what?
Um, I, I love my, uh, military movies like American sniper.
I've seen that many, many times.
Um, there's a, another, uh, military book called 12 strong, uh, which is about the,
uh, the first people after nine 11 that went over and they ended up having to do most of
their, uh, they didn't know it at the time, but, uh, on horseback and working with, uh,
the good guys over there that were all on horseback.
And I can't, I can't help, but think, I wonder if I train some of those guys.
And I mentioned that I worked with the military, uh, when they're looking for, uh, Bin Laden.
And so I'm wondering, but you know, military is military and they don't tell you much.
So I'm wondering if I trained those guys.
Uh, yeah, I like, I like those, those two movies a lot, you know?
Well I've been working on getting one someone and I was killing me because I've been trying
to remember the last few weeks.
Someone told me that they knew one of those men and I actually had, when they made the
movie of it, I had a gentleman, Fahim Fasli, who is an Afghani actor and he actually gave
up acting for about three years and volunteered to be an interpreter attached to the Marines
because he realized that communication was a big deal and people were probably dying
because they weren't able to understand each other.
So an incredible guy, but he was in 12 Strong.
He played one of the Afghanis in, in that, that show.
But when I finally can figure out who the hell it was that told me they, they had a
connection, I'm hoping I'll be able to get one of those men on and then I'll be able
to ask, Hey, did you train the Clint?
So I'll get back to you if I find out the answer.
Well, I still haven't listened to Buck Braneman's link yet, but I'm going to for sure.
Brilliant.
All right.
Well then on that same theme, is there a documentary that you've seen that you love?
Well, on that note, they did a 90, like a full night, I told you about the ESPN one
they did.
NBC Sports just did one on three or four of us, different athletes that struggled with
mental illness.
But they did a 90 minute documentary on me and you know, that's a full doc, 90 minutes
and I couldn't watch it.
I couldn't watch it.
They, you know, I saw a part where they were interviewing my mom and I just, I just tear,
tears welled up and because it brought back so many memories, especially when I was a
kid.
And so I didn't watch, didn't watch that any other documentary.
I can't come up.
Oh, there's, there's one called, I think, branded.
It's about these cowboys that go from the Mexican border in Arizona all the way up to
Canada.
That was, that was a pretty cool one.
I'm into the horses, obviously.
So you know, that one was pretty good.
Brilliant.
Unbranded.
And then what was the name of the documentary that they did on you?
I think it's called Goalie, Life in the Crease, Clint Malarchuk, something like that.
Okay.
I just want to make sure I see that.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was done by a Canadian company, but I think it's on the internet
now.
Okay.
I will look that up.
Thank you.
All right.
So the next question, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast as
a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions?
Yes.
A gentleman named Adam Keeler.
And he's also written, Alan Keeler.
He's also written a couple of really good books too.
And one just came out, I mean, yesterday.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And he'd be a good interview for you too.
If you were, I can, I can forward you his, his phone number.
That would be brilliant.
I would love that.
Thank you.
All right.
So then the last question before we make sure everyone knows how they can find you online.
What do you do to decompress?
Well, I touched on it a bit.
Number one, I got to be, you know, kind of conscious.
You know, somebody told me one time, you know, if you're having a bad day, you've lost your
connection with your higher power, whatever your higher power is God or, you know, whatever
you call it.
And so if I'm, if I'm getting that squirrel starts going around in my head, I will, I'll
take that 10, I'll take a timeout, you know, whatever I can afford five minutes, 10 minutes,
20 minutes, and I'll do a meditation.
You know, working out is, is, is important.
It's an endorphin release, which helps us mentally.
Again, knowing where I'm at and if I need to go see a counselor, like I did with the
EMDR and then, you know, just being a service.
And like I said, don't, don't let that scare people being a service.
I mean, it's opening the door, it's smiling, it's trying to be happy when you're not, you
know, because once you start getting out of yourself and into other people, for me, it's,
it's, it's, it's the thing that really keeps me going.
Brilliant.
All right.
Well, then the last thing, the most important thing, if you want to reach out to you online,
what's the best place to find you?
My email, I mean, I've got a website.
It's malarchuk.com, M-A-L-A-R-C-H-U-K.
Or my email is Canuck Ranch, C-A-N-U-C-K, ranch, all one word, at yahoo.com.
And you know, I answer all my emails.
I'm not, I am on Facebook, but I'm not great on it.
And LinkedIn and all that.
I'm all on that.
But I really struggle with the technology there.
I do emails pretty good.
Brilliant.
Well, I just want to say thank you so much.
It's funny, when we talked the other day, you'd said you'd never done an interview over
about an hour.
Well, we're scraping almost two hours.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time.
No problem.
Thank you.