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This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

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I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and have used their products ever since.

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From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

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responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've worked for.

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Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they are

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also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance Project.

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We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier. I ended up buying real

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ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been my ride or die through

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Murph the last few years as well. But one area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous

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sponsorship spots is their brick and mortar element. They were predominantly an online

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company up till more recently but now they are approaching 100 stores all over the US.

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My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts you see

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online are applied also in the stores. So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every

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purchase that you make but I do want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount

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especially around holiday times. But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order

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or in the stores every time you make a purchase. And if you want to hear more about 511, who they

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stand for and who works with them, listen to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with

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511 regional director Will Ayers. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always my name is

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James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show former firefighter

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and co-founder of the SIREN project Angela Graham Howling. Now in this conversation we discuss a

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host of topics from Angela's journey into the fire service, the power of mentorship, diversity,

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some career calls, her powerful mental health journey, how psychedelic therapy helped pull her

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from her darkness, using her own experience to create a non-profit that ultimately connects

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other first responders with this kind of treatment and so much more. Now before we get to this

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incredible conversation as I say every week please just take a moment, go to whichever app you listen

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to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five-star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for others to find and this is a free

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library of well over 900 episodes now so all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women stories so I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear

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them. So with that being said I introduce to you Angela Graham Howling. Enjoy!

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Well Angela I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming on the

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Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you so much for for providing this platform and having us.

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So we're on planet earth we find ourselves in a place where we can't find our way around

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the planet earth. So we're on planet earth and we're going to be talking about the power of

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mentorship and the power of mentorship and the power of mentorship and the power of mentorship

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and the power of mentoring in the future. So we're on planet earth to be finding you this

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afternoon. I am in Carmel Valley California the one near Monterey not the one near San Diego

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apparently there's two. All right beautiful well I want to start at the very beginning of your

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timeline so tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic what

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your parents did how many siblings? Oh I'm born and raised in california and in Concord actually

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and my father was a mechanic till I was 10 and then he went to work for Chevron

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oil refinery as an operator. My mom is an RDA, registered dental assistant,

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now she's an office manager for dental offices. I have one brother called my

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little brother, six years younger, but he's about six eight, probably three

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bells. He's a big boy. It's a big boy. Yeah, that's a little bit of where I come

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from. What did your dad's work week look like or work a year look like on the

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refinery? So there's a reason why I'm asking that. It was rough. My mom had the

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schedule memorized. I never got it. It was something like four on three off, three

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on four off. Then it was always a 12-hour shift so he would do like four days and

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then have three days off and then four nights and then have three days off. It

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was a really hard schedule to follow. So I think by the time I was 10 I was used

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to somebody working graveyards overnight. Yeah, because the reason I asked, I

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actually put a post up recently and it was just I'm really trying to push for

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the 2472 to be a national industry standard for us. Get the firefighters

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working a normal work week that actually creates health rather than

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disease. I put a post and it just said that, what did it say, administrators that

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work 40 hours continuously vote against firefighters working less than 56.

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One guy chimed in and it was actually hidden by Instagram funny enough and he

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was like, I work 83 hours a week on the refinery. Stop bitching. You signed

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up for it. I'm like, because that obviously always fixes things. We

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just say shut up and don't address it. But for me when I think of the oil rigs, a

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lot of times I think about working a few months at time and then going

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off for a few months. Then obviously doing the same thing for 10, 20, 30

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years on ending is very different than doing seasons on a rig or a crab

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fishing boat, for example. Yeah, he wasn't in the seasons. He was at the refinery so

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he wasn't off on a rig where they were drilling for it. I just

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remember thinking it'd be so much easier on their bodies if they just did all

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night shifts for a month and then switched to all day shifts for a

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month or something to give them a chance to get into a rhythm because

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just doing four nights and then off for three days and then right into four days

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and almost every week you're changing graveyard to day shifts. It's not

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like us. Sometimes we sleep at night on our 24s. When they're up at night

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and working, they're actually working, doing stuff. It's hard. It's hard on

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the body, lack of sleep. Sleep is not overrated. No. For sure. Absolutely.

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What about sports? What were you playing when you were young? I started

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softball really young. I want to say I was four or five and I played all the

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way through college on scholarship, division one, and then I had the

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opportunity to play professionally overseas in Italy. We got to play against

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US Olympic teams. Pretty awesome. I played a little volleyball in high

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school and in college and it was just it's too hard to play two sports in

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college and that was just my fun sport. Yeah, now I'm more into horses. It's a

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little more therapeutic. I wouldn't say it's easier on the body at all but

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there's definitely a mindfulness to working with horses. Just like in

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softball, I was a pitcher so you had to be very in tune with your body and you

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had to have those moments of focus and they didn't realize how cathartic

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pitching had been. Even though it was my job and towards the end of my career, I

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didn't really love it anymore. There's days where you go out there and you just

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throwing the ball around and you're just focused on you and you kind of get a

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chance to forget about everything else. I'm glad I have horses now. I grew up

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with horses and was not a great rider. It probably sent me on a good path to

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being a stuntman which I did alongside fire service but yeah I was terrible but

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that meant I was always getting thrown from over ditches and over fences

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and anywhere the horse decided to suddenly stop and I kept going. You

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learned how to tuck and roll for sure. What about career aspirations? What were you

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dreaming of becoming while you were in the school age? Oh I wanted to be a

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helicopter pilot and I just went to college to get a degree.

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Didn't matter what it was in because then you could join the military as an

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officer or a warrant officer and then you could fly and then I actually

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fractured two vertebrae, the processes of two vertebrae on a dirt bike.

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I actually joined the army, signed in, sworn in and everything and then before I

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got shipped out I fractured two vertebrae and I was medically disqualified to

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fly. So they're like you can still join the army you just can't fly.

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I'm like yeah that's alright. I didn't do my second swear in and actually ship off

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and I think I landed on my feet. I did alright. Absolutely. Well then

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so walk me through that. You play professionally for a moment in

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Italy. What was that experience like as far as a softball first and

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especially playing against your national side? Oh it was amazing. That was awesome.

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I'm pretty sure every girl who plays softball or any sport would love to play

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with or against the Olympic team the best of the best and I did pretty well.

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I struck out Crystal Bustos all three times I faced her. I struck out

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Lisa Fernandez so I just have to brag about that for a moment. She's kind of

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like the Babe Ruth of softball so that was amazing and then just getting to

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live in another country and learn another language. I truly experienced

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culture shock and what it's like to just by the end of the day I was like don't

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talk to me in Italian anymore. I was just mentally exhausted but I was

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comfortable in conversations in two or three months in and just learning a

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whole other way of life and I remember thinking these people just truly enjoy

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every day. They're so present. They don't have that rat race competition that we

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have competitiveness in America. It was just it was a really nice energy to be

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around for a year and softball was fun. My teammates were awesome. They all had

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other jobs. This was just what they did for fun so it wasn't super super serious

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but we had cadet teams. I got to work with little kids and believe it or not

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off-topic a little bit the kids were the best teachers of Italian because when

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you ask an adult a question on a word or grammar they get all complicated with

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conjugation all this stuff. When you ask a child how do you say this they're just

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very simple with it. Like I just need nouns and verbs to get by and so I think

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coaching the cadets and the little girls was where I learned the most Italian

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because we're all talking about body parts and how to move them doing the

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mechanics of pitching or hitting and you you get to know these little people even

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though you don't really understand everything they're saying you get to

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know who they are based on the mannerisms and and you you find you're

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more in tune with people when you don't understand what they're saying.

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Absolutely. It was great. Well it's interesting you say about the the kind of

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presence I find the same in Portugal I'm actually about to go back there my

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couple of my family members moved there about 20 years ago and it's such a slow

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country and I mean that affectionately like everything is just at a much lower

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pace but they're actually very progressive like for example they

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decriminalize addiction which we got no we're gonna get into later so you know

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a lesser-known fact about that somewhere that's kind of kind of looked down its

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nose a little bit from other kind of snooty air countries but when I think of

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Italy I also think about I think it's one of the blue zones is there so some

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of the healthiest people come from parts of Italy what was your experience as far

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as kind of exercise or movement more importantly and then the food that was

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there? Well I was living in Parma and that was pretty flat but most of my

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teammates came from all over the country and it was just known like your midday

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siesta you're you're gonna go for a walk you're after a meal you're gonna go for

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a walk and they they have little town center parks where people are just out

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there doing kind of like swinging their arms around and just moving their bodies

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all the time and there was definitely a mentality of moderation in the sense of

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we can have wine and we can have prosciutto we can have all the stuff that's

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not good for us but we don't eat ourselves till we're fat we just enjoy

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little bits of stuff so it was it was a good habit I think it was built in some

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good habits to observe that hey I can have a little bit of all this stuff

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you're not supposed to have you just don't go all in and they're big on you

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know olive oil not butter and and seafood and believe it or not and when

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you talk about the blue zones it's not just about the food you eat and your

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exercise it's about community a lot of those blue zones talk about how you

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have your family and your network and your people and Italians are very social

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every meal is in order like every meal is family style and it's a whole two hour

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ordeal you don't just quick eat in 20 minutes and get going they really take

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the time to not only enjoy their food but to enjoy each other and I know

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that's one of the qualities of the blue zone and that was definitely prevalent

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when I was there beautiful I'm glad I asked that one more thing I kind of

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skipped over with your early life obviously we're gonna get into mental

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health and struggles one of the massive realizations that really kind of showed

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its face as I started doing hundreds of these interviews was the impact on our

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early life on our resilience or maybe some struggles when we put the uniform

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on when you reflect now this kind of wise lens that you have were there any

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elements of your upbringing you think that contributed to some of the

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struggles later oh absolutely my parents bless their hearts they were not

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compatible probably from the beginning they split up many times before they

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finally divorced when I was 25 I think they just they stayed together because

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they thought it was best for me and my brother so they stuck it out and as

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miserable as they were it created a toxic hostile environment where you're

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always tense just waiting for the next fight for someone to blow their top and

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I I'm certain I developed unhealthy coping mechanisms so I didn't I didn't

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know how to adapt or how to communicate and while you're stressed in a

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constructive manner I just learned to yell or get mad or explode because if I

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get mad and I explode it pushes you back on your heels and now you're no longer

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coming at me so problem solved it's not healthy but in in the immediacy right

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now if I can say the harshest meanest thing I can think of it hurts her

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feelings you walk away crying well now I feel guilty but that's a lot better

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than feeling enraged so I did not I wouldn't I love my parents and they love

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us dearly and they did the best they could and they thought staying together

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was the best for us and it absolutely contributed to probably some mental

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health issues as well as not healthy coping mechanisms now I think it's an

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important conversation I mean you know when you talk about the fire service at

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the front door we have a ridiculous psychological test that now having

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interviewed many many people in that field have all said that it was never

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meant to be a standalone assessment for your ability to be a first responder

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it's it's you know it's supposed to be part of a gamut of tests for forensic

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psychology and that's the only discussion at the front door that we

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have now in 2024 I've kind of put to people rather than a polygraph and a

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psych test which I did numerous times to different departments how about you just

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take that money and from the front door you give six counseling sessions in your

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probationary year and now you've not only you know created a bond with a

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counselor you've removed any of the barrier to entry but you've given them

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an opportunity to start offloading some of the things and processing them before

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they start seeing all the horrible shit that we see and I think that there's to

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piggyback on that not only offer therapy at the beginning we do want to clear

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people to make sure that they're mentally stable there's no schizophrenia

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there's no catastrophic mental health issues that are prevalent from the

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beginning for sure but we only get tested at the beginning how often did you

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get fit tested how many times were you tested on push-ups or pull-ups or

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something physical I was tested every single year but never again

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psychologically and not in the mindset of oh you're on fit let's pull you off

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the line but how about a check-in we did blood work might do I have cancer am I

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getting my cluster like we check in on our health physically but nowhere in the

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fire department was there ever a standard to check in mentally they're

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just completely relying on us to step up and say I'm not okay I need help and as

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firefighters we're not very good at that we we suck at that so it would be

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interesting to see maybe not just the money on to go towards therapy in the

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beginning but maybe find a way to check in periodically even if it's not every

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year every other year maybe every three years just something so you don't go

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through a 30-year career having no professionals check in on you and maybe

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you're really great at coping and hiding it and no none of your crew members

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check in on you either and then you retire out and all the other horrible

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things that happen we don't we'll get into that later but also in the

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beginning not just okay let's let's do a test let's see where you sit mentally

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emotionally and having the therapy to help you work through that how about

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developing tools I mean Benjamin Franklin said an ounce of perp ounce of

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prevention is worth a pound of cure why are we waiting until people are

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drowning and committing suicide or attempting suicide or going through

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divorces or becoming alcoholics before we're like hey let's go help these

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people why are we not teaching them an Academy proper coping mechanisms that

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you could learn with those six therapy sessions or you could learn as a group

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the same way you're learning how to work out and eat right as firefighters most

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of us have a pretty good idea on how to work out and eat right but just like

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physical health how many of us know how to take care of ourselves mentally with

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breath work and meditation and mindfulness practices and I I would

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really like to see that become a part of the Academy to be honest mm-hmm yeah I

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know I was actually part of initiative here in Florida that was supposed to be

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putting that in I don't even know what happened to it the chief that was

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heading it ended up leaving the Academy and going somewhere else but you know

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using the sleep thing I think one of the problems that we have is that people

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don't want to talk about sleep too much when they know damn well that they're

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the reason that their firefighters aren't sleeping you know the schedule was so

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terrible so that's always kind of footed around it's always like oh well they

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need to they need to have good high sleep hygiene on the days off oh that's

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your solution that's it you know what I mean so these are all such important

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pieces of the puzzle but I agree completely you know there should be you

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know a normal conversation about the mental health and tools and the tricks

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and this did the understanding that sleep hygiene what that looks like how

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to wind down at the end of day how to remove things that are gonna keep you

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awake whether you realize it or not but then also simultaneously having those

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check-in sessions it's not just the first year I mean I'm talking about

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throughout the year but that's how you really initiate is you know at the front

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door talk to me about that what was your kind of road to the fire service and

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what were the kind of physical and mental health discussions when you

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entered well when I was floating around after dropping out of the army for

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flying I just leaned back on really the only skill I had which was softball so

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I was just coaching and one of the dads was a was a fire captain and he told me

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I should look into this and so I looked into it and decided yeah that sounds

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that sounds awesome so got my EMT and got hired pretty quickly got picked up

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out here and went through the whole hiring process the psych background it

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was interesting because I laugh when they did this site can you answer the

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questions you know it's really only five questions they ask you 200 times in

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different ways to make sure do you see yourself as a librarian would you like

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to be you know all these abstract things and I remember the the therapist and the

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interview afterwards saying so it looks here like you're an alcoholic and I

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just excuse me because well you drank to excess to the point of throwing up it

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said here you did that and I just laughed I was like well it did go to college

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there may have been a time when I had a little too much to drink and I got sick and I just

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kind of laughed it off and looking back I don't think he was I think he was

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trying to trigger me to see if it was a button to see if I'd get defensive so it

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was it was a game I'm like okay so in no way shape or form was this individual

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trying to help me or see if I needed help he was actually trying to trigger

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me so this is interesting and yeah Academy sucks I I played Division one

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and professional softball and I don't think I've ever been as stressed in my

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life as I was in Academy which is good because you want to know if you're gonna

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freak out and crumble under pressure I'd rather I'd rather find out in Academy

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then when I'm in a house on fire and I'm having to drag my buddy out or doing CPR

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and a two-year-old I'd rather know this about myself that I'm not good under

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pressure now but it was it was hard it was stressful the other woman in my

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Academy didn't make it I was the only one and at one point in my department I

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remember and we had we have about 200 220 online people 15 stations so we have

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a pretty good size apartment and I had almost reached my 10-year mark and I was

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still our most junior female none of the other none of the other females behind

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me had made it through Academy or probation they had all failed out and

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part of me was kind of like sorry for getting off topic no no there is no I

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just remember thinking well on the one hand that's a good thing because we

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don't want people pushed through just to make a quota we don't we don't want to

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push people through just to say look we have we're diverse look what we have we

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want to know that hey everyone has made it through has genuinely made it through

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then the other hand I was just kind of like well why not where did they all go

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and I'm realizing is it because women don't think they can do it or do they

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not want to do it because I can absolutely see why you would not want to

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do it I mean the cancer rate the suicide the lack of sleep trying to be pregnant

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I was pregnant I stayed online until I was like seven months pregnant there was

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a not fun it's just it's physically harder on women we're generally not as

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big we're not as strong we don't have the testosterone so we can't recover

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from injuries as well it's it's a lot harder on us and I remember women the

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part like we need to keep pushing until we're 50 50 like we are never gonna be

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50% of the fire department we're just we're just not 50% of the women in the

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world don't want to do it so yeah yeah I mean it's like saying that I think 50%

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of hairdressers should be men you know just because you want to check a box you

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want to make the equation perfectly balanced this bullshit there are certain

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jobs that seem to lean into certain areas you know and it then the thing is

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there are equal and opposite of those jobs you know there are people that are

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incredibly artistic people that are so mathematically astute that they can

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figure out how to send a rocket into the you know to the space none of us are

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made equal now if there's a bring it yeah exactly hopefully you know but yeah

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there's a deliberate opposition to someone being and then that's a whole

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different conversation one of the another real truth that's come out of

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this this podcast is the answer to diversity is mentorship and I've got a

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friend who's got a great mentor program here in in Ocala Florida where they

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pretty much removed all the barriers to entry so essentially located they meet

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the downtown station which you know more often than not tends to be closer to

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some of the poorer areas as well they provide free training all the gear there

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are scholarships available for fire Academy and then there are departments

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screaming for people on the back end of that the beautiful thing about that my

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stepson did it my bonus boy and he discovered that he didn't want to be a

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firefighter equally as important but I think what it does is rather than go in

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and scoop up we need you know 12 English women go find them you know what I mean

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and the 12 there and a summer shit and some are amazing you get them all

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instead you go into an area and you challenge the underserved population to

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rise up and see if they can reach that bar and of course lots of them do and

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those are the candidates that don't just fall out of the Academy or orientation

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those are the ones that become great firefighters I think that's great they

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need to know what it entails so they know if they want to do it and there's

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I'm sure there's tons of people out there that would love to do the job and

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just in the back of their mind oh I can't do that they just don't think they

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can achieve it so when you open the door like that and give them the opportunity

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that's awesome absolutely well what about recruitment when did you come on I

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was a hired officially in 2006 okay I came on in oh four so right around the

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same time this is an important conversation I think because we are now

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in 2024 sitting in a recruitment crisis and we'll definitely get into that too

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but how many people you testing against back then oh my gosh when I took my

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written there was 3,500 people yeah 3,500 people and we out of that written I

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don't know how many passed I want to say maybe 1200 but there was still you know

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over a thousand people to get drawn for two different academies that had about

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15 people each I had the exact same experience not quite the same I tested

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against a thousand for Anaheim for 30 spots and everyone in that room this is

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obviously they've been filtered out to even be invited to test they were all

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firefighter EMTs or paramedics a lot of them had ambulance experience wildland

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experience they've been explorers I mean they live a fat fat resume that's who I

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was competing against and they ended up taking you know whatever 5% of that

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entire room and so I think this is an important kind of perspective when I have

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people you know from my generation or further back even is that's where we were

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that's how far we've strayed and now people are recruiting and they're taking

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everyone that tests and they're missing the fact that just because you got a

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body in the rig doesn't mean you've got the right body in the rig and we used to

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be able to take that top 10 20 25 percent and then if people were lower

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than they would test and get better and better and they'd fight their way up to

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the top and be worthy candidates but right now kind of like we were saying

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the diversity conversation if you just go in and scoop everyone up that

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potentially could be a terrible engineer captain battalion chief or chief one day

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we like to promote people like that we just get them off the line away from us

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and just sure promote just get off the line get away what's possibly could go

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wrong exactly just get out of here yeah no I I'm aware that there's much fewer

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applicants trying to take tests now there's a crisis and I think that that

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started honestly if you look at Santa Clara County for the number of applicants

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for paramedic just plain paramedic not even firefighter just for the county I

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want to say in 2018 2019 it was whatever the number was let's just say 20,000 and

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then it dropped down to like 2,000 by the year 2020 and my theory is COVID was

356
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rough all politics aside for pro vaccine anti vaccine whatever your view is aside

357
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COVID was rough on everyone for a lot of reasons I just remember at one point

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thinking I can't have a life outside of work because as soon as someone was

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exposed that entire shift was quarantined and I was at a specialty

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station so they didn't have a big pool of people to fill those spots you'd go

361
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into work you know for your 48 and you didn't know if you were gonna go home

362
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for a week or you know five days or a week they would just hold you there

363
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because they didn't have anybody else to work and I'm like I can't make dentist

364
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appointments like I can't I can't have a life I can't oh go to that concert I

365
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don't know I might be getting forced back because I was getting forced back

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every single four day and as a single mother with my little boy and my my mom

367
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watches him but she also works I remember one day I was forced back the

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night before for a shift I luckily someone stepped up and took it for me

369
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and I should have just kept my mouth shut I told the chief hey this person's

370
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covering it for me well someone called in sick the very next morning and I was

371
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forced back again for the exact same day luckily someone stepped up and covered

372
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it for me but I really don't want to be at the mercy of kindness of others to

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step up and take a shift because I had no child care you're forcing me back for

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a shift and I didn't know what I was gonna do yes that's my fault that's my

375
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drama that's my bad life choices that put me in this situation that I didn't

376
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have child care but the fact that I had to find two people to cover for me for

377
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the exact same day because I was forced back you just feel like this department

378
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doesn't care about me they don't give a shit about me they don't give a shit

379
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about my family my health like I'm doing the best I can here but I literally

380
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can't have a life I can't make dentist appointments I can't do anything and I

381
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think the stress that comes with that is it's not worth it I'm upping my risk of

382
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of cardiovascular disease of cancer all the other known health side effects of

383
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the job and you clearly don't give a shit about me so what am I doing here

384
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and I think the younger generations are aware of that like why would we want

385
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that job when we know it's probably gonna kill us it's definitely gonna ruin

386
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our marriage so what's the point I couldn't agree more and to turn it into

387
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a positive conversation I mean it is you know to end I say with it with the

388
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positivity I think this is the critical mass and this is the opportunity for us

389
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to finally fix it because now we can look back at the absolute shit show

390
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behind us and go see I told you it was fucking us up you know what I mean and

391
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all the frickin you know names on the memorial walls but I mean I had a

392
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similar experience it wasn't COVID but back in when would it have been 2013

393
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2012 yeah 2013 I was a single dad you know and through and it wasn't bad life

394
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choices it was the fact that my ex decided that she wanted to bring someone

395
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,400
else in the house when I was at the station so it wasn't even like I'd

396
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screwed up and you know destroy the marriage and again you know that I get

397
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:08,760
that there's always you know two sides and an input as it were but I was a

398
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single father and the same thing was happening I was a medic and a firefighter

399
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,380
and you know I would get called hey you're gonna be you me for some like you

400
00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:21,160
don't understand I as a tiny human being that needs me to come home at 8 o'clock

401
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,200
who has school has to be picked up as be fed you know he's got a bit late in the

402
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,520
house those kind of things three-year-olds aren't super independent so

403
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,520
and it ended up forcing me to change departments to a place that was you

404
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,760
know down the road that I gave up any chance of a fighting any fire anymore

405
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and didn't understand at the time the complacency that was in that department

406
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until a mental health that was probably the biggest mental ill health stressor I

407
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had in my career but that was all because that previous department had

408
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,080
refused to address the issues that was slowly affecting their recruitment and

409
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,720
so who did it fall on everyone who's still wearing uniform well you can't go

410
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,680
home well you can't go home without actually acknowledging what that looks

411
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,280
like for that individual family and the appointments and the promises that

412
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parents have made to their children and I get it I mean I remember when I first

413
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I first hit the line Christmas Day and I displaced some 32-year veterans of

414
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really old-school guys had been around for 32 years we actually had four on the

415
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,540
engine and five on the truck and there wasn't enough room for me to sleep in

416
00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:31,840
the dorm so I had to take a mattress and sleep in the weight room and as the only

417
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:37,000
girl so I didn't get to sleep in the dorm but the mentality I grew up with as

418
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well this is the job you signed up for this you your job is to help people and

419
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to be there and sometimes you get forced back and suck it up and get tough kind

420
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of mentality but looking back I walked in I hit the line with zero force backs

421
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and everyone else there had about five because I remember getting forced back

422
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:04,120
every Sunday for like a month until I caught up we were the last class to walk

423
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,580
in with zero the the academies after us were grandfathered in with like an

424
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:11,680
average they had to figure out a mathematical equation because the career

425
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,280
force backs were getting higher and higher that's just how we did force

426
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,520
backs at the beginning and I remember it like okay you have 32 years on you have

427
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:27,600
been forced back six times you have been forced back six times in 32 years and

428
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,800
I've just been forced back four times in a month and by the time I left I can't

429
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,960
tell you how many force backs I had with my 17 years on and so the point I'm

430
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,360
trying to make is you have all these old-school people are like suck it up

431
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,800
and get tough and and this is the job and this is what you signed up for and I

432
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,040
it's not the job you signed up for you didn't sign up to get forced back every

433
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,440
four day and we have plenty people signing up for overtime so it's not like

434
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,560
a well you know we just took the overtime every time it came because we

435
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,120
didn't know when it was gonna come no we know it's there it's always there we're

436
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,400
short people people are bidding getting put on quarantine so I I'm just trying

437
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,680
to speak to the older people because I know they're out there listening and I

438
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,360
know they're like well you know this is what you signed up for well it's not

439
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,960
because you had 30 years on with five force backs and I got four in a month so

440
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,120
that's how I was in Anaheim that same system and the poor guys ahead of us

441
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,280
were getting murdered and then when we hit six months of probation it was our

442
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,040
turn and I think my talk about this before I think my base was either side

443
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,800
of like 60 grand and I didn't sign up maybe I signed up for like one or two

444
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,080
over times that was it but basically didn't I wasn't that guy I wanted to go

445
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,920
home and by the end of the year I cleared a hundred thousand dollars in

446
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,800
mandatory overtime you know what I mean almost half my almost my salary again

447
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,480
so I mean this is the problem and again it comes to the old guys I remember in

448
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,240
Orange County in Florida they the old guys are like I was riding the rescue

449
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:55,120
well they never transported they just went to the call waiting for the private

450
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,960
ambulance and then they went back to the station so Apple is not apples to apples

451
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,640
and somebody some of these guys were absolutely in the meat grinder and they

452
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,080
probably you know the Compton fire medics were probably doing just as many

453
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,600
if not more than the guys today but you know most of the country yeah it's it's

454
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,280
slowly got worse and worse and worse and that's why excitedly I think we have an

455
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,080
opportunity to now turn the ship around but we've got to identify the things

456
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,000
that have spiraled down otherwise you won't have a fire service anymore it's

457
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,160
just that simple I think that we need to recognize that the fire service is not

458
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,600
what it was 30 years ago well I have 17 years so 50 years ago people I got

459
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,080
hired with that are in the retirement now barking how we're we're getting soft

460
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:43,120
I think we need to recognize that it's just a different fire service we we

461
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,640
aren't running the same calls we aren't running the same number of calls and

462
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,760
we're faced with different obstacles I don't think we started I don't think we

463
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,160
had medics I think we don't think we did medical stuff until like the 60s right

464
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,840
do you know that style I say was like 60 something when we brought in our first

465
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,960
paramedics yeah they actually run medical calls the 60s in Pittsburgh

466
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,760
which people dispute but I'm actually getting the original guy and they were

467
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,840
black guys which this can kind of scrub from history so apparently Miami Dade in

468
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,600
LA started the medic program but they didn't but uh but yeah so but in the

469
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,240
70s I think was when it really started get gathering steam yeah so we have

470
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:27,080
people who who've been around it were the old-school guys and really they

471
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,960
didn't run many many medicals I remember them telling me stories about how they

472
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,000
were driving around telling people hey if you have an emergency like still

473
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:42,320
teaching people about 9-1-1 it wasn't well known to even call 9-1-1 so I don't

474
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,280
think it's fair that you have these old-school guys that are judging the

475
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,880
fire service now because we run so many medical calls we are dealing with

476
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,880
electrical vehicles we are there's just there's just social media there's just

477
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,620
more stress out there you have to be careful everything you do and say when

478
00:36:59,620 --> 00:37:04,000
you're out there because everyone's got a camera and they're watching you it's

479
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,560
just it's just I don't want to say it's harder it's just different it's hard

480
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,560
differently yeah absolutely yeah it's so much my son and I were watching Masters

481
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,920
of the Air and he turned to me and goes who do you think were the better pilots

482
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,080
the World War two pilots or the fighter jets of today and I was like well

483
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,880
technically the fighter jets of today they have the most amazing training and

484
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,680
technology but as far as courage and combat the World War two boys hands down

485
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,320
I mean there's no question because they were doing so much was so little and

486
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,360
it's the same thing both are admirable but they're also very different yeah I

487
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,320
think you probably had to have more technical skill right because there

488
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,320
wasn't all these automated computers to do so much stuff for you have more to

489
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,800
keep track of because you have computers and you have radar there's more to keep

490
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,840
track of but on the other hand those computers are doing a lot for you in the

491
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:00,160
jet whereas the old-school guys that was all manual yeah big old metal tube and

492
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,520
your fingers yeah everything was pretty manual so it's hard in a different way

493
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:11,160
and I joke about this with parenting well I think parenting is was hard back

494
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,560
in the days when you're actually worried about feeding your child you know back

495
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:20,960
in the early 1900s and before all the way up to the 1900s you you worried in

496
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,080
America if you had enough food you're gonna starve to death where you're gonna

497
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,160
live like you could actually die you could actually get smallpox and die and

498
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,040
we don't really have those fears nowadays but I have to worry about social

499
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,880
media and my child being bullied 24-7 and school shootings and all the other

500
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:44,280
stuff so it's it's hard in a different way and I think we all generations need

501
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,160
to take a step back and recognize we all have our battles we're doing the best we

502
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:55,040
can absolutely I couldn't agree more I think they are that the the universal

503
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,080
push towards change is the important thing and most of us are having human

504
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,200
experiences so if you kind of belittle each other's struggles then you're not

505
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,600
gonna get anywhere but if you actually stand side by side then you know out one

506
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,160
profession can impact others in a positive way and the inverse is true as

507
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,800
well to not just stand back and judge others but to not emotional window-shop

508
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,120
well I'm okay because I'm not as bad as that person that person is divorced

509
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,880
and they lost a child and and and I'm just sitting here as a single mom you

510
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,640
should an emotional window shop if you have a stress it's valid if you're

511
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,600
depressed about something it's valid you just have to learn how to get through

512
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,320
it absolutely well what about your career as you

513
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,120
kind of walk through from probation onwards what were some of the career

514
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,880
calls that you responded to career calls like actual calls not just what stations

515
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,120
I worked out in what I did yeah I mean yeah it doesn't have to be like I'm not

516
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,200
saying the you know the thing that we dread oh it's the worst thing that you

517
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,900
seen but what are some of the memorable rescues or you know incidents you

518
00:39:55,900 --> 00:40:02,800
responded to well I remember one time so my first station I was at was a pretty

519
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,880
quiet station I was I learned early to bid a crew not a station and I had a

520
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:14,040
very very seasoned captain a very seasoned medic who kind of helped guide

521
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,080
me because I was so green and at one point I remember there's a little

522
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,480
arsonist in the area so I at our quiet little station that doesn't do anything

523
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,760
Angela got to pump for structure fires in about a month which was wonderful

524
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,200
because the time you really want to get run is early right if you don't get

525
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,400
those calls early in your career to learn things it's okay to make mistakes

526
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,400
and to ask questions when you have less than five years on if you have ten years

527
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,720
on and you haven't run a lot of calls to make the mistakes or to learn the

528
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,240
questions you need to ask now it almost feels like it's too late like well I

529
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:53,260
can't ask that now because I have ten years on I should know that so I was

530
00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:57,280
really grateful for for that we were kind of in the middle of the department

531
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,180
so we always were at work like first or second in to most of the fires or in the

532
00:41:02,180 --> 00:41:10,080
first or second alarm in unfortunately the really memorable car calls are the

533
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,560
horrible ones I don't want to go too far into that but like I've said I've said

534
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:22,560
before another interview I actually I enjoy stationed visits we had a stage

535
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,380
that first station was kind of in a neighborhood and I used to put on angel

536
00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:29,940
wings and stand out front with the rig and all the lights on and a bowl of

537
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:34,900
candy on Halloween like I just I love the holidays and no one goes by the fire

538
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:39,440
station to trick-or-treat so I was like recruiting trick-or-treat

539
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,440
with my lights on they're like across the street and I was like hey

540
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,880
trick-or-treat little because I had to have something I could take off quickly if we got a

541
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,320
call so these little angel wings on and just standing out there with my bowl of

542
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,120
candy trying to recruit trick-or-treat and then you hear these little kids hey we're

543
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,120
gonna trick-or-treat it like they were super excited to come and get candy at

544
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:04,400
the fire station and I only got like four of them so they got a lot of candy so I

545
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:12,800
think I more than the calls I I really loved the social aspect and getting to

546
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,320
know the people I love the station visits I like going to the schools and

547
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,960
getting to know the little kids because they're just they're just so cute they're

548
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:26,320
just so darn cute trying to think oh we did have one call a guy was still kid

549
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,520
was playing hide-and-seek with his brother and he got stuck in the washing

550
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,000
machine and it was an emergent everything's okay we're trying to get

551
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,080
him out and where the captain going over the radio to cancel the ambulance

552
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,600
because we didn't need it it's like oh it's okay he's like he's just a little

553
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:50,880
agitated I thought was hilarious freaking out I'm just trying not to not

554
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:57,000
to laugh but yeah I can't I can't say I have a ton of memorable calls other than

555
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,640
the bad ones if that's where we're gonna go we can obviously well we'll see you

556
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,760
know where that leads us but just going back to the the Halloween thing for a

557
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,280
moment it's amazing you know I guess perception is everything if it was a

558
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,120
male firefighter in his civilian clothes not next to a fire station he'd look

559
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,920
like a pedo yes for sure for sure and that's the advantage to being a female

560
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,480
right I mean every single possible delivery call hey EMT skill and you're

561
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:31,400
up and I was happy to do it I mean putting the 12 leads on like I get it

562
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,320
women are more comfortable with other women women are people are more

563
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,800
comfortable with women around their kids in general so we have a place we have a

564
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,520
strength yeah well I mean it's back to that diversity conversation if someone's

565
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,000
been sexually assaulted by a man a female has you know who's the best

566
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,760
person to put in the patient compartment obviously a female firefighter so you

567
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,120
know there's you know that's what diversity should be you know the broad

568
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,800
spectrum of strengths and personalities that you have on a crew that could be an

569
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,840
asset in that moment culturally too we have we have a lot of culture in Santa

570
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,040
Clara County and if you had a woman having some sort of a female issue or

571
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,280
even put in the 12 leads on they would be highly uncomfortable with another

572
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,560
male in those general in those situations they just would rather have a

573
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:23,280
female mm-hmm I literally just hugged one of my wife's Muslim friends at her

574
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,360
one of her school functions she's in med school at the moment and the moment I

575
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,880
did I was like oh fuck you're not supposed to do this to a woman you know

576
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,120
in that culture and luckily she was okay and I actually found her later and

577
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,080
apologize for my ignorance but that will be the perfect example like in the

578
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,920
moment you go in or even before that your Muslim Muslim crew member has

579
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,640
already kind of given you the spiel on you know what is deemed acceptable and

580
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,040
not in certain cultures so I think that's another kind of layer to what we

581
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:57,720
do this invaluable mm-hmm you're respecting culture but also kind of on

582
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:04,660
that note is understanding the message right like you didn't hug her to offend

583
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:09,520
her and I think I think a lot of that is lost nowadays we simply look at the act

584
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,120
and deem the act good or bad based on the act rather than on the intention of

585
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,120
the person and like when someone says something and oh that they shouldn't

586
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,960
said that because of X Y & Z but what is their intent are they trying to insult

587
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,040
you are they trying to hurt your feelings are they genuinely good good

588
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:30,520
intention goodwill goodwill and what they're saying and it just doesn't quite

589
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,960
land right and I wish that we could find a way to get everyone to take a step

590
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:40,240
back and not be so triggered and offended by everything just take a step

591
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:46,160
back and go is that person trying trying to be because I can tell you I how often

592
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,080
I hear oh you're a fire person and they're trying so hard to find the right

593
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,920
word and and and that their intent is to be polite and they don't know the right

594
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,600
word or they say fireman man person they clearly like are uncomfortable and you

595
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,040
know what you can call me a fireman I don't care my paycheck stays the same

596
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,240
and you're not trying to stick it to me you're not trying to make a point

597
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:11,080
however there are plenty of people that I worked with when they introduced

598
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,080
themselves they would say I'm a fireman and they said it with the intent of

599
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,360
making a point and while they may have referred to me as a firefighter and they

600
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,040
were polite about it the intent behind the way they said is they were making a

601
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,200
differentiation on purpose and and I think we've really lost that in our

602
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,840
society of look at the intent of what someone is saying versus the word if

603
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,720
you're a nice older person and that's the only word you've ever known you call

604
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,360
me a fireman I don't care if you are my age and you're calling yourself a

605
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,760
fireman and referring to me as a firefighter with a derogatory tone I'm

606
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,120
gonna pick up on that we really should take a step back and focus more on the

607
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,120
intent of what people are saying rather than the actual content I think we need

608
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,440
to go even a step further now and say I am predominantly in the EMS system and

609
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:03,920
occasionally I'll visit a fire really transparent yeah how many fires my good

610
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:09,320
I think the statistics now for my department are like 72 to 78 percent

611
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,360
medical and like three fire and that includes car fires not just structure

612
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:21,360
fires it's not yeah an emergency responder I'm kind of a potpourri of

613
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:27,880
calls jack-of-all-trades the Swiss Army knife all right well then walk me

614
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,560
through the kind of journey that you had as far as your own mental health

615
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,720
obviously we're gonna get to Mexico so kind of what did those years and and

616
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:44,480
decades look like well I would say even before I had my son I was just really

617
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,560
struggling with I had a temper and that probably started from when I was younger

618
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,520
but it's one of those things like the straw that broke the camel's back I

619
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,320
could have been fine going about my life and then you throw in the stresses of

620
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,200
the job and the lack of sleep and everything that comes with it and I was

621
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:05,440
really starting to have issues where I would find myself hiding in the storage

622
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,280
room because I was I could just feel myself for no reason at all like I'm

623
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,960
just losing it and I would start to cry so I'd have to go in the storage room

624
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,920
because God forbid someone finds me and I wouldn't know why I would I would just

625
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:22,000
I would just break down and I never did on a call I was always able to hold it

626
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:27,080
together but clearly that's not a good way to live you I knew something was off

627
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:33,640
so went to therapy on my own and we tried cognitive behavioral therapy

628
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:38,600
cognitive processing therapy EMDR which is the go-to for PTSD I was officially

629
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,520
diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder which I'm hoping we could all

630
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:48,040
come together and recognize it's an injury not a disorder and nothing was

631
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:54,240
working I tried medication I tried group therapy talk therapy nothing seemed to

632
00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:58,720
work and I just remember thinking well this is I just got to suck it up like

633
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:03,640
they've done my whole life you just got to suck it up and get through and luckily

634
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:09,600
I met my husband I had my son about my husband and through the canine world

635
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,240
because he's a dog handler he knows a lot of other dog handlers and many of

636
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:19,200
them are veterans now the veteran community has been helping their people

637
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,400
with plant medicines and the oedics for about a decade they're they're quite a

638
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,060
bit further along than us with the whole operator syndrome TBI is and everything

639
00:49:28,060 --> 00:49:33,640
from being over with the war on terror so through them I was able to connect

640
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:39,440
with a place called the mission within and I flew myself down to Mexico or flew

641
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,680
myself down to San Diego hopped in a van with a bunch of people I'd never met

642
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,800
smuggled myself across the border to go do drugs but people had never met and

643
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,800
keep in mind I've never done drugs in my life I think I have tried pot twice and

644
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:57,600
I don't like it so I'm not like a drug seeker trying to find the next high but

645
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:02,960
I was desperate I had hit the point where I realized I was not I was not a

646
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:09,480
good mom I was not being there for my son the way a mother should I was

647
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,760
definitely having problems with my temper and my patience and I just

648
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:20,160
couldn't do it anymore I absolutely had suicide ideations never had a plan but

649
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:26,760
there was days I was so far gone and just so down I remember thinking it would

650
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,400
just be nice I called it mental swearing sometimes where you just fuck I'm just

651
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,280
gonna off myself because in that moment all the stuff that's stressing you out

652
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,680
or causing you to be depressed doesn't matter anymore cool I'm just gonna do it

653
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,640
and all of a sudden you get this moment of relief all that stuff that you feel

654
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,240
like it's pressure weighing on you is gone for a moment if you're like I'm

655
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:49,440
just gonna do it but then I started thinking well I can't leave my son

656
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:55,040
behind so what am I gonna do do I take him with me and instantly like that you

657
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,240
just lose it like as a parent you can never hurt your child I would never hurt

658
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:03,320
my child but walking through the steps of my head of how bad am I today yep

659
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,360
that sounds like a good idea that feels like it's relieving some pressure if I

660
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:11,520
just say I'm gonna do it but then I can't leave my son so what do I do and

661
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:18,480
it's a whole I never had a plan it's just a whole system I had developed to

662
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:24,400
kind of snap myself out of it it's not healthy I don't recommend it it's a

663
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,400
horrible coping mechanism but then I was like well nope that all still sounds like

664
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,680
a bad idea so I must be okay I must be good to go into work today because

665
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,000
killing myself and taking my son with me still sounds like a bad idea yep we're

666
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:45,120
good to go let's suck it up and keep going so yeah went down to Mexico and

667
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,240
did the plant medicine and I have to say it was anticlimactic it wasn't what I

668
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:54,440
expected and that was the problem I had expectations going into it and you know

669
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,320
my great-grandmother is gonna come and give me all this wisdom and it's gonna

670
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:03,080
be magical nope that's not what happened at all it takes a lot of work on the

671
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,520
front end I probably didn't put as much work in at the beginning as I should

672
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:12,120
have and it takes a shit ton of work on the back end to maintain the work

673
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:19,280
however when I came home nothing irritated me nothing pissed me off

674
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:26,800
everything was just so present and so right now and nothing more than it was

675
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,360
if that makes sense if something happens a lot of times when you have stress we

676
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,460
have depression or anxiety you instantly make that incident out to be more than

677
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:39,560
it is and it was so nice to just be able to sit there and have something done or

678
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:44,760
said and it was like it's like this thing I heard when when you're upset

679
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:52,120
think of think of your you're the pond and your emotions are the fish be the

680
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,000
pond not the fish and that's exactly how I felt like all of these emotions and

681
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,560
things that were going on were just sort of happening and I was just able to

682
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:05,660
observe them and not get drawn into it emotionally like that's that's offensive

683
00:53:05,660 --> 00:53:09,840
or that's triggering me or that's whatever it is it was it was an amazing

684
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,600
place to be and I stayed there for about a week and a half or two weeks so I know

685
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:19,360
the drugs were out of my system I wasn't still high it was an amazing and it it

686
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,440
let me know hey this is how you can feel all the time when you learn to control

687
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:28,720
your emotions and I turned to my husband and I told him we we need to do

688
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:32,160
something about this because one not everyone knows the Special Forces

689
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:37,800
operator to to get access to these medicines and two it was like two or

690
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:43,520
three thousand dollars not everyone has that much spare cash sitting around but

691
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:49,400
when I had done this it was about a year after we had lost a friend of ours on a

692
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,720
task force he had committed suicide he died by suicide leaving behind two

693
00:53:54,720 --> 00:54:01,560
little boys and I've lost several people to suicide over the past 10 15 years or

694
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:08,240
so and for some reason that one that one hit me it just it was so it was so close

695
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:15,880
to home that I just we just can't we can't lose anymore and I have a graph

696
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,160
that I'll send you but it's amazing when you look the statistics for firefighter

697
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,880
suicide it starts the graph that I have starts in 2000 and it doesn't bounce

698
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,760
around up and down it's a pretty linear climb up until today and I want to say

699
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:33,560
the numbers for today or this year last year are about four times as high as

700
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,200
they were in 2000 and again it doesn't bounce around it's a pretty nice steady

701
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:43,240
climb to the point that you're more not likely not a die of suicide than by on

702
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,980
duty activities so clearly we have an epidemic clearly there's an issue with

703
00:54:47,980 --> 00:54:52,440
mental health and clearly all the modalities that are available are not

704
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,760
enough because I had access to more therapy modalities and more free

705
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,720
sessions than any firefighter has in history my department's very progressive

706
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:06,760
when it comes to mental health and yet I was still walking myself through

707
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:11,480
potential suicide because I just couldn't anymore

708
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:16,720
going back to your own darkness first one thing that I've heard over and over

709
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:19,520
again and maybe this wasn't the case because of the way you described you

710
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,160
know thinking about your son that moment but I literally just did a post about

711
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:29,480
this today the old-school way again going back to the old guys was suicide

712
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,720
is cowardly and selfish and how could you you left your kids behind you know

713
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:37,560
and I get that we all basically thought that until you know some of us were

714
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,560
forced into this awakening by burying our friends but as I've kind of listened

715
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,960
to so many stories now from people that were so so close some literally holding

716
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,260
the gun you know some actually went through with the attempt and they

717
00:55:50,260 --> 00:55:55,760
survived it there was you know obviously the wanting the suffering to end was was

718
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,320
it was a resounding common denominator but the other one that I really heard no

719
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:05,160
one discuss was the feeling of burdensome the feeling of my family will

720
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,960
be better off if I'm not here I'm the reason that they're hurting so much and

721
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,160
then when you look at it through that lens and understand that the brain is

722
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:17,720
literally broken by that point and I say broken empathetically that their reality

723
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:22,880
has been distorted now in that moment suicide becomes courageous and selfless

724
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,840
because they truly believe that they are the problem and then you add in the fact

725
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,840
that they've joined a profession where they're willing to risk their lives for

726
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,320
strangers taking a life for their own loved ones you know as I think to that

727
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:39,160
that way did you have that burdensome at all as you were getting through that

728
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:49,560
absolutely part of my biggest burden was knowing my mental health issues were

729
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:57,560
potentially damaging to my son I knew that if I was to go through with it that

730
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,960
would obviously have a significant negative impact on my son and I didn't

731
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:07,960
want to impact him like that but I also didn't know how to stop I didn't know how

732
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,320
to be better and I just felt like I remember in sorry don't apologize please

733
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:20,760
I remember there was times I just thought I am ruining this beautiful

734
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:26,880
human being and I just didn't know what to do because I just didn't know how to

735
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:32,640
get better I was trying everything that was given to me and and you do you think

736
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:38,240
this is just this precious little human being and I'm ruining him of course

737
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,440
obviously killing yourself is not better but what do you do what do you do when

738
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,840
you're trying everything and you still feel like a shitty mom and you still

739
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:52,520
feel like you are ruining this precious little being what do you do and that's

740
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:59,720
where I was and I think so my friend Troy Troy Bizzell captain Bizzell I know

741
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,240
he had a back injury and I think he was looking down the barrel of getting

742
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,120
retired out which by the way workman's comp is a whole other another issue we

743
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,920
need to work on how much stress they add and how difficult they are to work with

744
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,680
and I know I think he was in that process of maybe getting retired out

745
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,440
what do you do if you're in pain all the time which causes depression you're

746
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,640
looking down the barrel of maybe getting retired out so you're gonna be losing a

747
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:28,520
significant portion of your income and you have a family to take care of what

748
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,200
are you gonna do and you know that you're a burden on them because you hurt

749
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,400
and you know that you're depressed and you know that you're probably maybe

750
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,560
having angry outbursts and you're taking down your family and you're watching

751
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,280
these precious little kids in tears because you've lost your shit again or

752
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,680
you're fighting with your wife because of whatever and you're watching your

753
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:53,080
family you are the cancer you are this toxic thing that is ruining your family

754
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,960
oh and you're in pain and you're not gonna be able to provide for them well

755
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:02,000
at least if I kill myself I won't be hurting them anymore like I am now I

756
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:06,040
won't be causing them to cry because I'm angry at them and I've lashed out with

757
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:11,040
them for no reason and I'm gonna give them a nice bulk sum of life insurance

758
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:15,720
so that they will be taken care of and people don't see that they just think

759
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:21,920
it's cowardly they honestly believe their family is better off without them

760
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,520
yeah I think it's so important I think you know when we talk about if you're

761
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,440
struggling just just call me and this is one of the comments I got in the post

762
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,760
this morning oh you know the brains not broken people just need to ask for help

763
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,720
and like it's not that simple it's like saying you know all people fat people

764
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:41,000
need to do is stop eating cake if that was the case we wouldn't have obesity in

765
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:45,320
America would we they just stop eating cake but the environment creates it you

766
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:50,360
know is set up where people are far more likely to eat shitty food and in our

767
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:54,480
profession the environment is set up that the access to a lot of these

768
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,680
therapies especially the ones that we're gonna talk about the psychedelics you

769
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,800
know we have frickin out prohibition laws that are literally stopping our

770
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,000
first responders and military and civilians from accessing things that are

771
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,280
working incredibly well so I think that what should be on the post is if you are

772
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:14,800
feeling like you are a burden to your family that is a huge red flag and

773
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,880
enough people even talk about that around the kitchen table that that would

774
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:23,600
be a great sign to if you can find them alone for a moment have that conversation

775
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,440
with them you know open the door be vulnerable yourself first don't fold

776
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,920
your arms and look down your nose at them but actually say look you know I

777
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,920
was kind of feeling this myself I you know let me tell you about the dark

778
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,520
place I was let me tell you about the drinking that's increased in my life you

779
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,520
know but you mentioned about being a burden mate you're not a burden talk to

780
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,840
me you know what I mean because I think that that has to be you know front and

781
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,880
center now because I've heard it so much and I'm just a frickin lowly firefighter

782
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:54,360
with a microphone no lowly firefighter you're doing a good thing here so thank

783
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,920
you for that but I do I think when I first started on our peer support team

784
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:05,440
we were using the critical incident stress debriefing type program and where

785
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,080
people come to us we were resources and we were able to facilitate these

786
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:15,440
meetings about calls and and defense or and diffuse afterwards but I think now

787
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,720
with the IFF peer support program we're trained to be more proactive to look for

788
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:25,280
people that have certain symptoms or signs that we think that they might be

789
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,640
having an issue and to go and out and ask them because like I said we suck at

790
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:34,940
asking for help and not only do we suck at asking for help when we need it even

791
01:01:34,940 --> 01:01:38,280
when it's offered to us our first reaction is usually going to be no fine

792
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,640
to push back so if you really do see someone having symptoms like they think

793
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:46,120
they're a burden they're drinking more they're just overall becoming more

794
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:50,560
negative you may have to push a little more and get them one-on-one to get them

795
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,200
to open up and talk the flip side of that is if if you're like me where I was

796
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,860
going out and getting help on my own not through the department and paying for it

797
01:01:59,860 --> 01:02:06,480
myself what happens when everything legally available isn't working that

798
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,960
creates a whole other dynamic when it's not just I have these problems and I'm

799
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,440
gonna fix it on my own I'm gonna suck it up and be tough because that's what we

800
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:17,680
do what if they've already realized they can't fix it on their own they've

801
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,440
reached out for help they've tried everything out there and yet they're

802
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:26,720
still having these dramatic ups and downs what happens and I think that's

803
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:32,080
where we come in absolutely well I've heard so many EAP horror stories where

804
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,040
you talk about women's comp you know tying that all in together and then again

805
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,880
if you're being forced out talking about that you know that one example you're

806
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,080
being forced out because of an injury now you're not just losing you know your

807
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,400
pain and the other things it's it's you've lost your tribe you've lost your

808
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,400
purpose you know and then there might even be a feeling of organizational

809
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:54,080
betrayal which is huge and another under discussed element of mental ill health

810
01:02:54,080 --> 01:03:00,000
circling back to the graph what also saddens me is that that's not including

811
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,880
a single retiree so you wouldn't be on those stats now I wouldn't be on those

812
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,680
stats now so you know when is that most likely gonna manifest when they're

813
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,120
sitting in that apartment on their own maybe their kids are grown up or maybe

814
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,360
they didn't speak to him after the outburst they had five years ago and now

815
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,160
you know they're really alone with their thoughts so I would argue in the cancers

816
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,960
and the heart attacks and certainly in the mental health side that that's

817
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,240
probably an absolute fraction of who we're actually losing you know as far as

818
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:35,000
people that aren't actually wearing the uniform anymore but the last 10 20 30

819
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,440
years they did well I got all my statistics from the firefighter

820
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,080
behavioral health Alliance which is a non-profit so they they do need donations

821
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:46,920
and they it takes them sometimes three to five years to receive the reports of

822
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:51,200
suicide and then to verify that they did die by suicide and that they were first

823
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,440
responders I don't actually know if any of the stats that I have are for active

824
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,760
duty or retired but I do know that they believe the stats they have are only

825
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:05,120
about 60% of what's actually out there so they're they're grossly under

826
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:09,960
reported and I think they have their numbers go back as far as like 1880

827
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,760
something and what's interesting is when they go and I don't know how accurate

828
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,640
they can be that far back it'd be I'm sure it's difficult to get the numbers

829
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:25,440
accurately but based on the numbers they have 96% of the suicides from 1880 till

830
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:31,960
today 96% are in the last 20 years mm-hmm so clearly there's something

831
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:38,480
going on yeah absolutely well speaking of that I was on someone else's podcast

832
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:45,280
a while ago and I had just helped a friend get connected to a psychedelic

833
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:51,100
experience or you know psychedelic therapy in Texas and then she said to me

834
01:04:51,100 --> 01:04:54,600
oh I've got a friend a firefighter who had like yourself he tried several

835
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:58,160
different things was at the end of his rope he kind of got off alcohol fallen

836
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:03,560
back in again and was truly you know very very close taking his own life she

837
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,680
connected with me with him and I connected him to Sergio from Agape Church

838
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,880
who I just had on not too long ago and the first day kind of like yourself he

839
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,840
was like this is bullshit it's not working the second day and he told me

840
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,720
this you know a few days after when they and they've been through the retreat and

841
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:27,280
he processed everything he's like James over and above the birth of my child the

842
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:31,640
wedding to my wife and getting hired as a firefighter this was the most powerful

843
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:37,280
experience of my entire life and he went from suicidal back to I think he's kind

844
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,120
of blazing a trail trying to do the same thing that you're doing as far as you

845
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:44,520
know just locally connecting more firefighters to plant therapy plant

846
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:51,160
medicine excuse me so I've watched it firsthand those two men specifically I

847
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:56,680
know were suicidal and now they're doing better than they ever had before so talk

848
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:02,080
to me about you know you went through that yourself what was the creation how

849
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,360
did you find your own facility in all the facility that you use now in Texas

850
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,720
to keep it stateside and then let's kind of talk about some of the success stories

851
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:16,640
you've had so we've also had several people come through and say top three

852
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,560
experiences of their life for sure we've had several atheists come through and

853
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,840
and say nope not atheist anymore there is a higher power it is out there we're

854
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:30,360
all connected and that's a great feeling we we no longer use a local facility

855
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:36,360
because we found through advice of a lawyer that going through a church

856
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,000
doesn't necessarily protect our active duty participants because you have to

857
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,200
have a devout belief and then okay they're gonna pick the church apart do

858
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,360
you they have a developed belief who's the congregation how like they go down

859
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:52,480
the list of how they're gonna pick it apart so we decided to protect our

860
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:58,440
active duty people by hosting ours in Mexico because by doing these medicines

861
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,920
in Mexico we are not breaking any federal laws I'm pretty sure at any

862
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,480
point someone could go to Amsterdam when pot was still illegal here and you can

863
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,960
go to Amsterdam smoke pot and you're probably not gonna lose your job

864
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:12,120
because it's legal there it's not necessarily legal in Mexico but by doing

865
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:15,400
it there and not here you're not breaking federal laws and that's how we

866
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:20,960
protect our active duty people that and you know animosity and keeping

867
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,360
everything quiet we don't we don't tell them sorry and an enemy not animosity

868
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:32,920
that's the Freudian slip I have some animosity we'll get to that later so we

869
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:38,400
through my retreat through mission within I the the medicine woman if you would

870
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:44,840
she's uh she's amazing she's from Chile she grew up with curanderas she's not a

871
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:49,440
medicine woman but she is the one that administered the medicine her

872
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,280
grandparents were curanderas but she lived and worked in America for 30 years

873
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:58,920
in mental health and she's a doctor dr. Andrea Lucy and she worked for the

874
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:05,720
Nikon Center of Excellence and did a bunch of work with military guys and she

875
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:09,600
has this really deep Western medicine background and then just one day it

876
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:16,000
decided to go back to her roots and she started holding retreats so we use her

877
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:21,800
and she she rents a house and we provide medical screening with a doctor or

878
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,960
nurse practitioner beforehand to make sure everyone is medically cleared

879
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,760
because there are some medical situations where you shouldn't be taking

880
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:34,240
the medicine or we need to take severe precautions for you and she does all our

881
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:38,600
pre-work and well we're bringing in more people because we want to make sure that

882
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:42,200
people are getting enough sessions for pre-work and post-work but then they go

883
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:48,160
to Mexico for I say it's four or five days and you do psilocybin the first day

884
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:54,720
and you do the toad the second day and they incorporate a lot of a lot of yoga

885
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:59,040
and breath work meditation so it's not just about the entheogenics and we say

886
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,640
that because obviously the toad is not a plant medicine but entheogenics is all

887
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:08,880
encompassing of all of them so we we're trying to keep it as culturally

888
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:13,480
respectful as possible the people that found these medicines thousands of years

889
01:09:13,480 --> 01:09:17,120
ago have used them safely and successfully for thousands of years and

890
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:22,160
we want to respect that the cultures that discover these medicines believe in

891
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,680
the spirit the spirit of the plants and the spirit of the animals and that's

892
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,040
part of the healing process you're healing your spirit because if you think

893
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,000
about it everything on the planet is made up of molecules we're all made up of

894
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,560
carbon and hydrogen and oxygen and all these little molecules that kind of

895
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:40,040
vibrate and we just happen to get put together in the right combinations that

896
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,640
we can think and feel and we are connected to everything we're all made

897
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:50,320
at the same stuff so there is something to the vibrations and and the energy the

898
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,400
energy in your body physically versus the energy and everything that's around

899
01:09:54,400 --> 01:10:03,120
you and we like to respect that we believe it creates a better setting it

900
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:07,680
creates a healthier more constructive setting because you'll hear people in

901
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:12,680
this world of plant medicine entheogenics psychedelics talk about set

902
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,040
and setting what is the difference between taking a bunch of mushrooms in

903
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:20,080
the forest with your buddies versus doing it medicinally to heal your mind

904
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:24,440
the difference is a set and setting the mindset you have going into it which

905
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:27,960
takes a lot of work if you're doing it for healing and this setting are you

906
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:33,200
safe where are you physically so we try to create not only a physically safe

907
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:40,520
environment but a spiritually aware one if you will to be aware of the energy

908
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:45,600
of everything around you and we do think it adds for a more in-depth and richer

909
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:52,360
experience what is your perspective then on the prohibition laws at the

910
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:58,560
moment I think people fear what they don't know and I think that the

911
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:04,240
government did a great job with the war on drugs into scaring people away from

912
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:10,040
anything deemed a drug at the time which is amazing to me that people are afraid

913
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:14,240
to take something natural like a mushroom but yet you'll pop those man-made

914
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:19,160
pills like nobody's business and all the side effects of you know nausea death

915
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:25,000
liver secretion issues anal leakage erectile dysfunction like the list is

916
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:29,680
ridiculous with some of the side effects from these medicines why is it okay to

917
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,920
take a drug that is man-made and synthetic with copious amounts of side

918
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:39,000
effects and not something natural that God just put on this earth why why is

919
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,680
that okay it's a cultural mindset we've been trained to believe that drugs

920
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:49,360
given by doctors are good and drugs that grow out of the ground are bad and I

921
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:56,240
think it's a cultural shift that we need to we need to change and I think the

922
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,960
only way to do that is to we have studies there's studies right now for

923
01:11:59,960 --> 01:12:03,240
Stanford and Harvard and Johns Hopkins and they're all doing studies they're

924
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:08,680
showing these medicines are working as good if not better than everything that's

925
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:13,160
out there and I think that proof when you throw someone in an MRI machine or

926
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:18,280
whatever the machine is it scans the brain for activity and you can see all

927
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:23,320
these parts of the brain light up when you're on plant medicines and how it's

928
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:29,080
helping with neuroplasticity and helping create new neural pathways and that's

929
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,800
that is how you get better because why are you depressed why are you anxious

930
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:38,080
because you have a thought process that is unhealthy you have a habitual thought

931
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:43,000
process that is unhealthy when one thing happens or one thing is done or said you

932
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:50,280
go through a certain mindset we call it we call it the neurons that fire

933
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,920
together wire together kind of like the muscle memory of your body you do some

934
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,960
when you walk you don't think about it it's a muscle memory it's the same thing

935
01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:01,160
when you think it's super effective for keeping you alive and being energy

936
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:06,440
efficient it really sucks when you have to change it to get healthy and the

937
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:09,520
plant medicines helps that they call it shaking the snow globe you know all

938
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,560
these tracks in the snow but those tracks are unhealthy and it's really

939
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,880
easy to slide back into those habitual thought patterns and the plant medicines

940
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:22,400
kind of shake the snow globe globe give you a nice layer of snow to make a new

941
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,800
set of tracks in that's why it takes so much work before and after because you

942
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:32,160
want to make sure once you have this pliable soft putty in your brain that

943
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:38,440
you are set up to to rewire it in a better way I've said it before but I joke

944
01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:43,120
that imagine your brain has like a Charles Barkley golf swing it's gonna

945
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:48,000
take a lot of work and effort to get that back on track to be to be healthy

946
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,360
and the best way to do that honestly even if you're not into mushrooms

947
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:55,960
gratitude the second you hear yourself judging somebody or having a negative

948
01:13:55,960 --> 01:14:01,160
thought stop focus on your breath and think of something positive that is

949
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:06,640
actively rewiring your brain to be more positive because depression means you're

950
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,600
focused on the past anxiety means you're worried about the future you're not

951
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:16,360
focused on you right here right now and and you have to learn how to listen to

952
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:20,840
your body most people are sitting around especially firefighters I guarantee you

953
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:23,520
most of the day they have their shoulders in their ears and they're

954
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,120
unaware of it they have tension in their body that they're completely unaware of

955
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:32,080
until you start to get an acre in pain once you're at a seven in pain now

956
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:36,520
you're gonna listen to that part of your body the key for meditation and

957
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:42,960
breath work and yoga and walking out nature is to check into your body when

958
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:47,440
when it's earlier you want to be able to know why I have fireworks on the screen

959
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:50,120
I don't know what I did to make that happen but that's awesome that was

960
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:56,400
perfect timing yes the whole point of the plant medicine and incorporating all

961
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:59,000
the tools and work you're putting in before and after is to wire your brain

962
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,940
to be more aware of yourself you want to catch your negative thought your

963
01:15:02,940 --> 01:15:06,240
depression your anxiety when you're out of two you don't want to catch it when

964
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,520
you're spiraling out of control because now your tools aren't going to work you

965
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:14,840
need to be able to use those tools to reground yourself to find gratitude to

966
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:19,040
find your breath when you're at a two or three and that's what the plant medicine

967
01:15:19,040 --> 01:15:22,880
does is it helps rewire your brain one to be more aware of your body when you're

968
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:29,040
starting to spin and to have the muscle memory to bring you back on track and

969
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,840
find something positive that was a really long wordy way of explaining it

970
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:35,120
but I feel like there's just so many technical details it's it's hard to get

971
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:40,160
together in a short sound pipe no that is perfect I just want to figure out how

972
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:49,280
do you make the fireworks happen that's something else I learned in Italy actually

973
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:52,600
saw a guy step out of a phone booth because he's trying to use his hands and

974
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:58,920
there wasn't enough room in there well you mentioned about new you know

975
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:02,720
neuroplasticity and you know regeneration I've heard some really

976
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,760
exciting things about psilocybin specifically when it comes to the TBI

977
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:11,080
side but also I think you know growing up in an era where I was taught you know

978
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,680
once once the brain is damaged is irreversible damage you know and you know

979
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,600
a lot of the kind of leaning into alcoholism obesity well that's just

980
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:23,160
genetics nothing I can do and now we're relieved thank God we're actually kind

981
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:27,160
of discovering like that's absolutely bullshit it's you know much more likely

982
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:30,120
to be the environment that you were raised in if you were if you were given

983
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,800
KFC five times a week that's probably you know more of an impact on your

984
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,400
obesity than your genetics but it's you know family to family you know that's

985
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:44,320
how their their parents taught them to eat etc etc and depression like honestly

986
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:48,160
depression like that makes you gain weight because my food does love me I

987
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:54,080
get instant gratification when I eat that donut that's hard to untrain 100% so

988
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:59,240
then you know what's so beautiful though is the the converse occurs as well so if

989
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,600
we're able to kind of reset shake the snow globe as you said your brain has

990
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,200
the ability to rewire even if you have three generations of alcoholism before

991
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,680
you doesn't mean that you and your children are destined to follow the same

992
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:16,880
path so hearing about the epigenetics now how they're realizing that DNA can

993
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:22,160
literally be reprogrammed the sinuses can literally reform I just a perfect

994
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:26,060
example of the miracle of the human body I just had a crossfit athlete on the

995
01:17:26,060 --> 01:17:33,080
show and she had a blockage in her arm which was chronic and her body had

996
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:38,600
actually created another blood vessel around the blockage and she ended up

997
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:43,080
having you know the the the clock got worse and during a competition so she

998
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,880
finally discovered it but when they went in they were like you literally have an

999
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:49,640
entire blood vessel that shouldn't be there that is the miracle of the human

1000
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:55,240
body if you give it the chance to actually heal and you but and on top of

1001
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:58,760
that you have to give it everything it needs to heal right the right nutrition

1002
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:03,400
the right micronutrients I'm actually getting us I'm in a certification

1003
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:06,720
program through UCSD for integrative nutrition it's awesome we're learning

1004
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,960
about the science of all that and how it affects the body and I say that

1005
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:14,640
because for someone who's been in our position police fire high chronic stress

1006
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:19,760
lack of sleep sometimes you damage the vessel right sometimes your cortisol is

1007
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:23,720
just off the charts or you've burned out your adrenal glands and it's not high

1008
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,920
enough and your testosterone is low and there's all these other hormonal issues

1009
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:31,400
and it's important to have the good nutrition to help make sure the vessel

1010
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:35,280
your body is able to repair itself because you can do all this work with

1011
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:39,600
plant medicine and you can do all the meditation and the breath work and try

1012
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:43,740
to rewire your brain it's still going to be really hard to have energy and be

1013
01:18:43,740 --> 01:18:49,520
happy if hormonally your body is just jacked up from lack of sleep and poor

1014
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:55,040
diet and all those other physical factors so we have to treat the body as

1015
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,560
a whole it's not just about your mind and your mental health practices it's

1016
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,880
also about your sleep and your diet and all the other aspects it all comes

1017
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:08,960
together to make you function in the right way so you can heal and I forgot

1018
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:14,000
where I was going with that we're gonna leave it there well speaking of helping

1019
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:19,100
then so you mentioned about you know finding the the retreat in Mexico talk

1020
01:19:19,100 --> 01:19:22,840
to me about your actual nonprofit and then let's talk about some of the

1021
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:27,840
success stories that you've seen so our actual nonprofit we are the siren

1022
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:33,480
project and it stands for supporting initial responders with entheogenic

1023
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:40,320
networking basically so we raise the money and we pay Andrea and she

1024
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,840
basically facilitates everything for us it's kind of how we keep ourselves out

1025
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:47,060
of it we aren't buying the drugs we don't grow the drugs the medicine we

1026
01:19:47,060 --> 01:19:51,680
don't do any of that she hires a legit shaman he actually grows the mushrooms

1027
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:56,040
he harvests is the toad venom and all these medicines so we know where it

1028
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:59,920
comes from we know who's handled it we know that it's safe and I feel like

1029
01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:04,080
that's one of the dangers in this world is you have all these people who are

1030
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:07,560
gonna step out on the underground and say they're serving medicine one do they

1031
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,720
know what they're doing and two what are they actually giving you where did it

1032
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:16,360
come from and what is it so it makes us feel comfortable to know that we know

1033
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:21,520
the person who's growing it and where it comes from so we pay for everything all

1034
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:27,160
we ask people to cover is their airfare we found if people don't have some skin

1035
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:31,720
in the game they may bail last minute so if they paid for their own plane ticket

1036
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:36,200
but we cover everything else including the house the food I've got a thumbs up

1037
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:39,240
this is awesome I've got to figure out how I make all these things pop up on

1038
01:20:39,240 --> 01:20:53,040
the screen so yes we raised the money of course we always need more funds we are

1039
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:58,560
funded through 2024 and part of 2025 but right now I have a wait list of about

1040
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:03,840
50 people and each retreat is is we do seven at a time you know that's a good

1041
01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:08,640
comfortable number to get everyone through so yeah we fund the retreats she

1042
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:12,160
runs the house we have a doctor and a nurse practitioner present during the

1043
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:17,040
medicine case there's a medical issue we have IVs for people to take after the

1044
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:24,480
the mushrooms just to help them recover faster let me see what else oh we have

1045
01:21:24,480 --> 01:21:29,520
several individual and group therapy sessions before and after because part

1046
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:32,400
of the medicine isn't just the work you're putting in and the medicine you're

1047
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:37,380
taking it's the community you're building and we firmly believe that the

1048
01:21:37,380 --> 01:21:41,880
medicine works best when you're in a group of people of like-minded people so

1049
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:46,260
everyone that goes to his retreats are either first responders first responders

1050
01:21:46,260 --> 01:21:52,680
dispatchers or spouses we do fun spouses as well because we've found I'm sure

1051
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,640
everyone knows that sometimes they your wife or husband might take a beating

1052
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:04,000
from their first responder who's been going through post-traumatic stress or

1053
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:07,920
just the job itself and they're the support network and then when their

1054
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,480
first responder gets healed and they're fixed now all of a sudden the spouses

1055
01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:15,080
have time to focus on themselves rather than trying to make sure that everything's

1056
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:20,320
okay so that their loved one isn't stimulated they have a time to focus on

1057
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,280
themselves and they realize there's a huge void and they themselves need

1058
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:29,660
healing and we want to heal the whole unit not just the first responder love

1059
01:22:29,660 --> 01:22:33,480
it what about success stories I know you got some testimonials on the site

1060
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:38,320
we have some testimonials my favorite is of course the atheists who walk in there

1061
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:42,880
and they leave like nope not an atheist anymore we've had several people who

1062
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,800
said this was basically their last last ditch effort if this didn't work they

1063
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:52,120
were probably gonna off themselves and to see them thriving like happy

1064
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:55,080
individuals one guy's getting back together with his wife like they were

1065
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:58,680
divorced and now they're getting back together and that's just always good to

1066
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:03,320
hear looks not only not only we helping these people heal themselves so that

1067
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:08,200
they don't die by suicide we're who we're helping heal their families there

1068
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:10,880
you know marriages are being brought back together people are believing in a

1069
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:18,440
higher power of course I can't name anybody to get too specific but it's it

1070
01:23:18,440 --> 01:23:22,600
has been an amazing it's only been two years and it has been overwhelming and

1071
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:27,760
scary and stressful and and yet amazing at the same time and I'm just hoping we

1072
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:32,760
can continue keep going we just need more donations well that being said then

1073
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:39,240
where can people find you and donate so our website is the siren project org no

1074
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:45,160
dots no dashes and on the website there's PayPal there's Zell our mailing

1075
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:49,920
address if you wanted to mail a paper check again each participant cost us

1076
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:55,200
about $2,000 which that's the other benefit to doing it in Mexico is things

1077
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,760
are more affordable we're keeping it culturally respectful we're respecting

1078
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:02,960
the culture of the medicine and it's significantly more affordable the place

1079
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:07,480
in Texas we used to use in several other places in the states are running about

1080
01:24:07,480 --> 01:24:12,280
five to seven thousand dollars per person and I just feel like everything's

1081
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:16,720
so expensive nowadays if if someone's gonna be willing to donate their money I

1082
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:21,200
have to be a good steward and if I can save three people by sending them to

1083
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:27,120
Mexico that's what we're gonna do so we are keeping it as as economically sound

1084
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:33,600
as possible so the siren project org brilliant all right well I want to go

1085
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,960
to some quick closing questions before we let you go if that's okay okay yes

1086
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,360
first one I love to ask is there a book or are there books that you love to

1087
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,680
recommend it can be related to our discussion today or completely

1088
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:49,640
unrelated yes the first one I always tell people about is how to change your

1089
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:53,880
mind by Michael Pollan it's a great intro into psychedelics he was just like

1090
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:57,920
me he'd never done drugs in his life and then just decided to go out and try them

1091
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,040
all and write a book about it so it really breaks down the silent science of

1092
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:05,800
the default mode network which is that hardwired highway between your lizard

1093
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:10,520
brain and your prefrontal cortex that's the one that's messed up or corrupt and

1094
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:14,040
that's causes a lot of anxiety and depression and talks about how plant

1095
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:19,960
medicines help you circumvent that so it's a great intro fantastic fungi is a

1096
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:25,160
net is a show on Netflix it's not a book but I love it because it talks about the

1097
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:29,720
intelligence and the science behind mushrooms and fungus and this one guy is

1098
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:34,400
just self-taught and he figured out how to kill termites with a fungus it's it's

1099
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:39,320
pretty amazing and then the other book I like is the body keeps the score I think

1100
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:45,800
it's an interesting read for people who I don't I think everyone has trauma

1101
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:49,880
that's my personal belief we've all been through something and it leaves its

1102
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:54,920
mark on you and it can have severe long-term effects if you don't deal with

1103
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:59,840
it and I think this book goes into research and science to prove that hey

1104
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:04,640
these kids who were abused as children are the that we had so much sympathy for

1105
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,600
are the ones who grew up and they're doing drugs and they're homeless they're

1106
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:10,400
having all these other issues and now we're not as sympathetic for them because

1107
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:15,320
why can't they just get it together politics aside it's just the science

1108
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:21,360
behind the psychology and how damaging trauma can be especially when you're a

1109
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:26,160
child and you don't have any of those coping mechanisms in place or at least

1110
01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:29,360
not healthy ones how damaging they can be I think that's important for everyone

1111
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:35,160
to to be aware of when we're dealing with other people in our society to be

1112
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:39,400
well aware for themself like you have these aches and pains physically where

1113
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:44,280
is that coming from I've said this quite a few times in interviews recently I

1114
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:47,920
think what's missing in the first responder mental health conversation is

1115
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:53,720
hope and I think that when you hear the stories of post-traumatic growth that is

1116
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:58,480
so inspiring to then really try and find solutions because the only difference

1117
01:26:58,480 --> 01:27:03,160
between someone who's my age that you know is suicidal at this point and myself

1118
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:07,800
is just the you know the Russian roulette that was our lives leading up

1119
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,960
and I've talked about you know some of my traumas early on nearly dying in a

1120
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:15,000
house fire when I was four and my parents divorced and some other things

1121
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:19,920
but equally there was growing up on a farm my dad was a veterinary surgeon so

1122
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:23,400
I watched him heal animals I was in nature you know I mean we ate around a

1123
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,360
family table and we were a big family just kind of like the Italian thing so

1124
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:33,560
there were those natural elements as well so by pure chance I kind of had

1125
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:39,040
post-traumatic growth from some of the shitty things like ongoing that then

1126
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,680
fosters resilience that makes you a better military member first responder

1127
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:48,160
doctor nurse whatever it is and so as you said we all have trauma was one of

1128
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,160
the I had Eric Potter out on the show he's the chief psychologist for the

1129
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:55,120
Navy SEALs and he refers to them as struggles he's trying to get away from

1130
01:27:55,120 --> 01:28:00,760
trauma specifically but if left unaddressed you know there's a Mexican

1131
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,800
proverb they they try to bury us they didn't know we were seeds you know if

1132
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:09,680
you push it down it will come out eventually but if you address it then it

1133
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:13,840
becomes that kind of Japanese philosophy you know where they use the gold glue to

1134
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:18,160
fix the ceramics now it's a strength you're even better than you were before

1135
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:22,760
so rather than saying oh we've got to smash the stigma we were fucking there

1136
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:27,080
we're already there now let's talk about the hope that's on the other side of

1137
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:32,680
people's struggles and give them the entire smorgasbord of tools so it might

1138
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:37,120
be psilocybin and a therapy dog it might be EMDR and a hiking retreat whatever

1139
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:41,240
works for that person they are fully aware they're not only will that tool

1140
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:45,600
help them get there but the other side is somewhere extremely exciting for them

1141
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:50,720
I do think that these entheogenics are hope I think they they were hope for me

1142
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:56,200
when I tried everything but just to step back a little bit about the retirees and

1143
01:28:56,200 --> 01:29:00,400
people who have to retire out because of injury I think in our line of work and

1144
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:05,840
in military and several others there's that whole who am I now aspect when we

1145
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:10,200
talk about the hope like what hope do I have if I am a firefighter this is what I

1146
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:15,680
am not just what I do and you define yourself by this title and now it's gone

1147
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:22,000
either because you retired out and now who are you or like Troy you might have

1148
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:26,680
been forced to retire out he killed himself in his class B uniform so

1149
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:31,360
clearly he defined himself by the job and he was looking down the barrel of

1150
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:35,720
not only am I gonna lose my income and not be able to support my family he was

1151
01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:41,200
losing his identity and I think that's where that hope comes in we need to find

1152
01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:46,520
a way to help our brothers and sisters find the hope in anything what who are

1153
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:52,280
you outside of this get a hobby that is not related to the fire service define

1154
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:55,440
yourself as something that is healthy and constructive and that's never gonna

1155
01:29:55,440 --> 01:30:00,480
go away I'm a mom and I'm a pretty good mom right now that's never gonna go away

1156
01:30:00,480 --> 01:30:05,480
and I think that that's part of the hope aspect you need to have something to

1157
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:10,880
look forward to that isn't the job don't define yourself by this and hopefully

1158
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:18,400
these medicines can open a door not only to a new self-definition but to just a

1159
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:23,960
better future in mental health for everyone I think it would I'm assuming it

1160
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:26,880
would also help with creativity and this is this is one of the things that's

1161
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,560
going back to the work week for a moment one of the push backs I get as well if

1162
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:34,240
we just give them more time off they'll just you know work overtime you know

1163
01:30:34,240 --> 01:30:39,960
any of you know they're isolated so just reverse engineer if you staff your fire

1164
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:43,000
department properly and recruitment is good and people are vying for those

1165
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:47,000
spots over time then we'll come a few and far between and they'll have more

1166
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:51,800
days off what that then does from the identity piece is it really creates

1167
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:55,880
space for someone to be creative and actually go you know what I love woodworking

1168
01:30:55,880 --> 01:31:01,160
I think I'm gonna start installing cabinets or landscaping or painting or

1169
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:06,160
coaching you know whatever it is and now you're adding another layer of

1170
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:11,480
identity to that individual and then they're far less likely to go all I am

1171
01:31:11,480 --> 01:31:15,080
as a firefighter no I'm a firefighter and I'm a football coach or I'm you know

1172
01:31:15,080 --> 01:31:20,160
whatever it is personal trainer so I think by giving our responders more time

1173
01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:23,800
off and then giving them the mental space to be creative again maybe through

1174
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:28,480
psychedelics now you're setting these people up whether it's they get fired

1175
01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:32,640
whether they get hurt or whether they retire they have something healthy to

1176
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:37,100
transition into absolutely when you're starting to say more time off I was

1177
01:31:37,100 --> 01:31:42,800
thinking like time off from work as far as like offer workman's comp with mental

1178
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:45,480
health issues and I was like I don't know if that's a good idea because those

1179
01:31:45,480 --> 01:31:50,080
people tend to isolate and that might make it worse yeah no the opposite give

1180
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:54,800
a given time to actually fill it with something else that's exciting right and

1181
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,800
make friends outside the fire service I learned once I got retired out that wow

1182
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:04,520
after 17 years most of my social interactions were at work and once that

1183
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:08,520
was gone I was like wow I don't have much of a social life do I I'm not a

1184
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:13,920
super social person anyways but wow so it's it's harder to make friends as an

1185
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:20,900
adult outside of work just random moms at school but try to I would say

1186
01:32:20,900 --> 01:32:25,040
definitely find a hobby that's outside with other people to make friends that

1187
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:29,440
aren't firefighters yeah absolutely cops say the same thing you know you got to

1188
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:33,480
get outside them all right well then another closing question for you

1189
01:32:33,480 --> 01:32:37,520
mentioned fighting fungi which is obviously a show is there a person that

1190
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:41,520
you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first

1191
01:32:41,520 --> 01:32:47,360
responders military and associated professions of the world Andrea Lucy she

1192
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:51,560
just has such a rich background in both the culture and in Western medicine she

1193
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:59,600
can speak both languages and she's just I she's an empath she just has a great

1194
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:04,800
read on people like instantly and just such a pure individual I would highly

1195
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:08,200
recommend and I'm pretty sure she'll do it she's done it before but she's just

1196
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:11,440
she has so much more knowledge when it comes to the medicine than I do I don't

1197
01:33:11,440 --> 01:33:16,160
have the depth of knowledge as far as the spirit side for sure or the science

1198
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:19,880
side I would absolutely recommend her and then maybe my husband when he

1199
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:24,920
retires he's very well-spoken he just can't be public yet until he's retired

1200
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:30,320
because his department's kind of conservative is he a you saw dog

1201
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:35,600
handler then he is he's a fire captain and he that's actually how we met on a

1202
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:39,960
FEMA task force team so he does search and I did hazmat so we have we have four

1203
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:42,960
dogs I joke we have two that find you if you're alive and two that find you if

1204
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:49,560
you're not brilliant all right well then the last question before you know I would

1205
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:55,120
let you go what do you do to decompress these days I ride my horse oh my gosh

1206
01:33:55,120 --> 01:34:01,160
you have to be so present and so aware of your body because animals in general

1207
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:05,640
like they communicate just fine and they don't speak a single word they use you

1208
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:10,360
know an ear flick or a tail swish or the body position and you have to really be

1209
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:14,040
aware of your body and what you're doing and how you're breathing because they

1210
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:18,480
pick up on all of it and it's it's almost like a form of meditation because

1211
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:22,440
I could honestly get killed on that horse he could spook we could have a bad

1212
01:34:22,440 --> 01:34:26,880
communication something could happen and I could really get hurt so that is what

1213
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:32,760
I do to diffuse I go out with my horse and equine therapy is a thing and is it

1214
01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:37,240
is my absolute sanctuary to go out there and be with him and just kind of feel

1215
01:34:37,240 --> 01:34:42,840
and breathe and and to work with him and my other go-to is walks in nature that

1216
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:46,280
kind of incorporates a little bit of the EMDR part the left and the right and the

1217
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:50,880
left and the right and just enjoying the nature even if it's raining and being

1218
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:55,040
present those are those are my go-to's for when I'm really stressed and what

1219
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,960
we're trying to teach our son every night we do three things we're grateful

1220
01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:02,280
for even if we're mad even if we're upset you you should always be able to

1221
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:06,080
find three things you're grateful for create that habit at the end of the day

1222
01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:09,880
one of our guys we work with has a board up on the wall so as they go by and they

1223
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:13,680
think of things are grateful for they write it up on the board for the day so

1224
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:18,720
I would say gratitude practice and getting out in nature beautiful have you

1225
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:23,960
ever heard of a horseman Buck Braneman yes yes I have I had him on the show I

1226
01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:27,440
watched one of the back end of one of his clinics and then we did part of the

1227
01:35:27,440 --> 01:35:30,360
interview face to face and then we actually had to finish it off remotely

1228
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:35,600
because of time but I mean what a beautiful insight into you know trauma

1229
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:39,280
and then how that connection can be a mirror to the rider same same with a

1230
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:44,680
canine it's absolutely a mirror and you if you don't deal with your stuff that

1231
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,960
animal is gonna make you deal with it because it's not it's not gonna work it

1232
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:51,400
will absolutely come out in the horse and what's so amazing about him is he is

1233
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:57,280
the picture of every little motion he does he is intentional he's so aware of

1234
01:35:57,280 --> 01:36:00,760
his body and his breathing and everything he does and that it is

1235
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:04,520
communicating something to that animal it's it's a beautiful partnership

1236
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:09,120
absolutely well Angela I want to say thank you so much it's been such an

1237
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:14,040
amazing conversation you know again I have so much respect for anyone who

1238
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:18,120
comes on here and is vulnerable I think we need that vulnerability and I truly

1239
01:36:18,120 --> 01:36:23,320
believe that is courage that is strength actually opening up but also what you and

1240
01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:26,680
your husband have done as far as taking that experience and then applying it to

1241
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,480
help others so I want to thank you so so much for being so generous with your

1242
01:36:30,480 --> 01:36:34,600
time and coming on the behind the shield podcast today thank you so much for

1243
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:57,840
having us