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This episode is brought to you by Thorne and I have some incredible news for any of you

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Joel Titoro and Wes Barnett.

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of my civilian gear, the clothes that I wear are also 511.

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So if you want to hear more about 511 and their origin story, go to episode 338 of Behind

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the Shield podcast with their CEO Francisco Morales.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week

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we are addressing such a raw and important conversation.

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My guest is Bethel Kagan and her husband Frank was a 30 year veteran of the Florida Fire

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Service.

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In the last year of his life, Bethel watched Frank slowly unravel which ultimately resulted

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in his suicide.

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So this is a visceral perspective through the eyes of a loved one when a first responder

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is in crisis.

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And we discuss a host of topics.

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From his journey into the fire service, his love of martial arts, the psychosis that began

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to manifest, the negative side of psychiatric meds and Baker Act, the haunting red flags,

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the change Bethel wants to make in the American fire service and so much more.

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Before we get to this heartbreaking conversation as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 900 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Bethel Kagan.

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Enjoy.

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Well, Bethel, I want to start by saying thank you so much for reaching out initially and

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now taking the time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Thank you.

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I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to be in your podcast.

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Like what I had said before, initially when we first spoken, I'm just a stay at home

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mom.

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I was married to my husband for 20 years.

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We've been together for 21 and you know, he was the one that was always in the forefront

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and I was just home taking care of the kids, stay at home mom.

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And now somehow I got thrust into this after he passed away.

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So it's an honor.

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I appreciate you.

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Thank you, James.

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And thank you for all your work.

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Well, I think it's important.

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You know, when we lose people, we can either just say, oh, that's sad, shrug our shoulders

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and keep doing the same thing.

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Or we can at least figure out is there an opportunity to learn from that and prevent

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it happening in the future?

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Absolutely.

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I completely agree.

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And I'm trying to turn my pain into a purpose and somehow hopefully throughout all this,

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I can be a voice or even if I can just help save someone or maybe change their perspective,

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right?

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On like ending their life or anything like that, or even thinking about ending their

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life by hearing this episode or any of your shows for that matter.

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I think it's quite important.

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Absolutely.

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I agree 100%.

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Well, very first question, then where on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I am.

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I live here in South Florida, West Broward County, Pembroke Pines, sunny.

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I was in Pines when I worked for Hialeah.

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That's where I live.

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My house is in Pines.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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I'm in West Pines.

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It has completely changed now.

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I'm sure.

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I think I was off 187th.

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And I think if you went three more streets, you hit the Everglades.

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And I'm sure there's probably a lot more construction now.

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I'm on 172nd.

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Okay.

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So yeah, not too far.

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So I would love to start at the very beginning of your journey.

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Obviously, we'll walk through to when you and Frank met and then we'll kind of move

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forward from there.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings.

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Okay.

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I was born in the Philippines, originally Ilo City.

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We moved here in 93.

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So I kind of have grew up in the Philippines and pretty much like grew up here then.

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My mom was a stay at home mom.

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My dad was a ship cargo, a captain of the cargo ship.

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So he traveled a lot.

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And my mom would also go with him on the cargo ship to be with him and stuff.

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So I grew up with my cousins and my aunts and uncles in the Philippines and our grandmother.

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And they pretty much kind of like raised us.

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And then we moved here into space in 93.

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So there's five of us in total.

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I'm number three out of five.

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I'm one of five as well, funny enough.

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But my wife is actually half Filipino.

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I just spent a week with my in-laws and her mother is from the Philippines.

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Oh, wow.

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Where we're at?

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I can't remember.

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Because I know it's so many little islands.

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I forget it wasn't Manila.

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It was somewhere more rural, I believe.

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So talk to me about the immigration story then.

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Your parents' perspective and then your own unique perspective.

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Because I think I talk about this a lot.

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When you hear the word immigrant these days, it's almost like a nasty word.

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And they're talking about illegals and borders and walls and stuff like that.

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But this whole country, aside from the Native Americans, and even then if you go far enough

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back, they were from Asia.

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But this whole nation was built on immigration.

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I think there are some beautiful stories mixed into the fabric of this nation.

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So what were the highs of your immigration and your parents' immigration story and

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were there any lows?

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Well, actually, my parents, my dad, my mom and dad, we actually had to get a lawyer and

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spend a lot of money in order for us to move here and to be with them.

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So they worked hard.

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My dad, when he stopped working for the cargo ship, there were times when he had to work

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at the farm down here in Miami just to earn a living and then save their money.

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So did my mom.

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My mom would work as a caretaker for the elderly.

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And they sacrificed a lot to bring us over here.

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And they went through the legal way as far as getting a lawyer and getting all our paperwork

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done.

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We got denied several times when we were in the Philippines trying to come here.

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Remember, this young is five years old, getting all our paperwork done, going to the consulate

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in the Philippines over there, standing in line for hours just so we could come here

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in the United States.

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And thankfully, through the grace of God, I think in 93, that's when we finally got approved

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for a visa to come here and move here.

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And yeah, it cost my parents a lot of money to have us here.

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And this is the greatest country in the world.

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So what part of the states did you move into initially?

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Was it South Florida immediately?

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South Florida, Plantation, Florida.

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And what made them choose that part of the states?

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I think at the time, my dad's family lived in Miami and my dad had a business in Port

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Everglades, which is by Fort Lauderdale.

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So Plantation was like, you know, the up and coming suburb at the time before Pines.

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So it was like a great community and he purchased a home there.

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And that's where we lived until I met my husband, Frank.

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So what about sports when you were a school age?

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What were you playing?

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Oh, my gosh.

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No, I did not play sports.

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I was not into sports.

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I didn't know how.

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Yeah, no, not.

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Yeah, like I guess growing up in the Philippines, it was a little bit different back then when

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I was growing up because we did not play sports.

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It was almost like you want to be inside a house.

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You don't want to be out in the sun and stuff like that.

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It's just like, you know, you want to be girly kind of.

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So yeah, I couldn't play sports, did not play sports.

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It was almost unheard of for girls to play sports back then.

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I mean, I'm sure it has changed now, but yeah, did not play sports.

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I did not dabble into sports or any of that stuff, activities, physical activities until

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I was in my 20s.

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What about nutrition?

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How does the food that you were raised on in the Philippines contrast to the food that

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you found yourself immersed in in the States?

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Over there in the Philippines, we ate rice, rice is like the staple.

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So breakfast, lunch and dinner, we had rice and rice with everything pretty much.

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It was, you know, we had like stew, soup and everything else.

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Like over here, we have a lot more pre-packaged meals, I guess.

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But over there, it was like fresh food and it was prepared for you for breakfast.

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You get like a fresh batch of rice with eggs, meat and stuff like that.

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I suppose over here, you eat like cereal or sandwich or a breakfast sandwich.

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But yeah, over there, it's just like a heavy laden like good food.

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Yeah, I got exposed to some of that when I was over there.

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Her mum's a great cook.

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So pancit.

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Yeah.

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So it's different.

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Now what about career aspirations as you're going through the school system?

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What were you dreaming of becoming?

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Quite honestly, I was always that child that didn't know what I wanted.

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I was like the dreamer, I guess.

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Like I'll dabble on the idea of, okay, I want to be a teacher.

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At one point, I wanted to be a nun.

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You know, I just, I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grow up.

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And I'm still trying to figure that out, to be honest.

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I'm like one of those people that are like, okay, wherever it may be or whatever it may

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be, maybe someday it'll just come to me.

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And I've been blessed in that, I guess, aspect because, you know, I just go with the flow.

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So let's sport back in time again to Frank's upbringing.

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So tell me where he was born and tell me a little bit about, excuse me, a little bit

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about his family as well.

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Okay.

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My husband was Frank, was born in Iceland, New York.

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And I believe they moved here when he was seven, maybe because his dad had relocated

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for his job.

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So the whole family moved here, I think, when he was seven years old.

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And they moved here in Humbert Hines at the time and he's been here since.

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And his dad is from the Caribbean, from St. Martin, and his mom is from New York.

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He's like New York, American, Italian.

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Now same question again, I'm sure it's probably rare if you have this kind of conversations,

238
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:13,200
but have you heard any of their immigration stories or his dad's specifically?

239
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,800
All I know is like, you know, obviously, I think his dad moved here when he was like

240
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:23,080
19 or 20, and he started working immediately from the Caribbean, from St. Martin.

241
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,920
And I think he started working at the bakery.

242
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:33,080
I think he stayed with his uncle, but I can't really speak for him because, you know, obviously,

243
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,320
my version would be all mixed up and it may be wrong, so I don't want to speak for him.

244
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,240
Yeah, but his mom on the other side, I think she's a second or third generation American

245
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,240
Italian.

246
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,240
Okay.

247
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:47,240
Beautiful.

248
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,400
Well, then what about Frank's journey into the fire service?

249
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,320
Have you ever talked to him about why he joined in the first place?

250
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:59,600
Well, I think I just, you know, I'm so thankful because when he was in high school, he was

251
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,600
dating this girl, Dawn, and her father worked for the fire department in Miami Dade, and

252
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,640
he dated for, you know, a few years.

253
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,680
They were like childhood sweethearts.

254
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,680
And I think he got inspired by his girlfriend's dad.

255
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,920
And that's how he got started in the fire department.

256
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,080
So I'm really thankful for her family, for her and her family, because we're still friends

257
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,880
and she's an amazing woman.

258
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,920
So he joined his department in 1989.

259
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,680
Have I got that right?

260
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,680
Yes.

261
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:29,680
Okay.

262
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,280
So walk me through, you know, what you know of his kind of career before you met him and

263
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,320
then let's get to when you guys met.

264
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,960
Well, I mean, he started really, really young.

265
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,080
And I guess, you know, while he was in the fire department, he would be a personal trainer

266
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,080
on the side.

267
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,560
He also worked for an ambulance company.

268
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,360
He also worked for, I think it was one of those air rescue things.

269
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,460
I think that's what he said before.

270
00:15:55,460 --> 00:15:59,000
So he worked at all those places prior to meeting me.

271
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,920
And he would also teach CPR classes and stuff like that while he was single.

272
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,580
Frank was 12 years older than me.

273
00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:13,380
So he had a really colorful life prior to meeting me, or I guess prior to settling down.

274
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:16,840
So he had a lot of like little odd jobs here and there.

275
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,480
But all in all, though, at the end of the day, he loved being a firefighter.

276
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:21,760
That was his life.

277
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:22,760
That's who he was.

278
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,040
And he was so passionate about his career.

279
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,440
There's so many elements that contribute to what we're going to talk about later.

280
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,920
You know, someone reaching an emotional crisis.

281
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,960
And after all these conversations that I had, you know, the impact of our early years, our

282
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:44,000
transformative years on our emotional resilience later in life is undeniable.

283
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,560
You know, and that trauma can be absolutely horrific, like a sexual abuse, or it can be,

284
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:54,160
you know, something seemingly less traumatic, but still had a huge impact on that young

285
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,840
man or woman.

286
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,560
When you've had conversations with him, was there or were there any elements of his earlier

287
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,280
life that you think added to what ultimately happened?

288
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,360
Quite honestly, no, not really.

289
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:12,960
I just feel like, you know, he was a hardworking man.

290
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,880
He was sensitive, for sure.

291
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,680
He was empathetic.

292
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:23,360
So maybe perhaps that attributed, you know, to the whole career of like accumulation of

293
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:29,080
the job, what you see on calls, like for 30 years, it's a total accumulation of different

294
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,080
things that happen.

295
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:36,120
And obviously, in the fire service or first responder community, I mean, hopefully changes

296
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:40,200
now back then can really speak about your feelings or going to call or anything like

297
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,200
that.

298
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,200
It's almost like you're not man enough or you're a PSSY.

299
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,200
I don't know if I can say that.

300
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,200
You can say anything on here, just so you know.

301
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,200
So it like back then, it's almost like you're a pussy.

302
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,880
If you speak about your feelings, or if it bothers you a little bit.

303
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,280
So I believe like it's just an accumulation of things that occurred.

304
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,520
But I mean, he was very sensitive.

305
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,360
I know he was a sensitive person.

306
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,000
One of the most like he looked tough.

307
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,200
He was a tough guy, but he was definitely a sensitive man.

308
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,480
And was he into the martial arts and boxing before you guys met?

309
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,280
Yeah, he already was.

310
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,280
Yeah.

311
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,560
And he was a Golden Gloves champion at one point as well.

312
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,200
He was a Golden Gloves champion.

313
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,520
He even did tough men when tough men was around.

314
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,000
He did that too.

315
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:36,680
He also dabbled into Jiu Jitsu and MMA like striking and boxing and kickboxing and stuff.

316
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,000
So he was into all that stuff.

317
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,920
He was one of the toughest men I've known.

318
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,520
Was he training with Wagner Rocha?

319
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,760
Yes, he was.

320
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,240
We were with Wagner for a while.

321
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,360
Okay, because it's funny.

322
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:53,240
That's actually the father gym of my gym in Gainesville, Swamp Academy.

323
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,960
That's who gave my instructor his black belt.

324
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:56,960
Oh, wow.

325
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:57,960
Yeah.

326
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,000
So I think it was Wagner Rocha's competitor of the year.

327
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:07,920
I think that was 2014 or yeah, I think in 2014 because Frank loved to compete.

328
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,680
He was very competitive.

329
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,240
So Wagner awarded him as competitor of the year at the gym.

330
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,240
Amazing.

331
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,240
Yeah.

332
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:17,680
And he started Jiu Jitsu quite late.

333
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,440
He started, I think he was 44 or 45.

334
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,440
Brilliant.

335
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,440
All right.

336
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,280
Well, let's go back to when you guys met then.

337
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:31,240
Walk me through the first time meeting and then your honeymoon period as it were.

338
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:32,240
Okay.

339
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,880
Well, I guess we didn't really meet me.

340
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,520
So I was working at Hooters back in 99.

341
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,520
I picked up a shift over there.

342
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,840
It was Air and Sea Show.

343
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,520
And I just remembered it was a busy day that day at the beach place.

344
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,880
And I was in one corner of the room.

345
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,440
I had my own section and I heard like a bunch of like, you know, loud guys in one corner

346
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,760
of the room.

347
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,720
And I just ignored it, whatever.

348
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,480
And then two years later in 2001, my girlfriend and I and my cousin went to an event at the

349
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,400
Bank Atlantic Center at the time in sunrise.

350
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,840
And my girlfriend and Frank's friend were working at detail.

351
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:17,160
And Kevin was like, he started talking to my girlfriend Marissa, because I guess it

352
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,480
was like four young girls at this event and it's like a Christian like event.

353
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,360
And mostly it was older people that go to this event.

354
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,920
So he started talking to my girlfriend and we went to our section.

355
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,800
He calls Frank immediately and told Frank, oh, I think you're going to like this girl.

356
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,680
There's this girl that I want you to meet.

357
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,920
She's here with her friends, whatever.

358
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,960
So during like one of the intermission, we went outside of our section and then Frank

359
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:44,960
was out there.

360
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,480
We were introduced and that was January 2001.

361
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,320
And ever since then, we've been together.

362
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,760
And Frank was looking when we were dating, Frank was looking through some of the pictures

363
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,320
and he saw me in my Hooters uniform with really short hair at the time, too.

364
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,680
He's like, I remembered you back at the Air and Sea show.

365
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,040
He's like, that was you.

366
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:10,040
And he described to me exactly to the T like where I was that day and what I was doing.

367
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,960
I still remember it because I was just like, oh my gosh, these people are just so loud.

368
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,920
And I was just feeling overwhelmed at the time.

369
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,880
And I'm like, yeah, I was working that day.

370
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,360
He's like, yeah, he's like, I was there.

371
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,240
I remember you specifically.

372
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,360
So I just thought it was weird and fate with a loud people or firefighters.

373
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,680
Yeah, that was him and his friends.

374
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,680
I figured they were so loud.

375
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,360
But he said that he was running on a one day.

376
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:38,680
So he was going for a jog and they were already up there.

377
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:44,280
So he went upstairs to meet them and he saw me on the other side of the room.

378
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,280
Ah, gotcha.

379
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,280
Yeah.

380
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,000
Well, with the timeline, then I know in 2002, he won firefighter of the year.

381
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,200
So walk me through the rescue and what happened prior to that.

382
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,240
Well, actually, we were just dating then.

383
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,240
So he was like telling me this story that he said, you know, that he rescued this woman

384
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,240
and stuff.

385
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,720
And at the time, it was just to me, I'm like, OK, whatever.

386
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,880
Like you're firefighter of the year, great, whatever.

387
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,480
And I'm just like brushed it off.

388
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,840
I didn't realize it was such a big deal.

389
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,880
So it was like, oh, OK, that was nice.

390
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,640
I mean, lovely, brilliant, great.

391
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,040
But yeah, he was pretty proud of that moment.

392
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,200
He went to a call and then, you know, found this woman unresponsive.

393
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,640
I guess there was like a fire and there was a thick smoke and saved her.

394
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,840
But to me, I wasn't really paying attention to me at the time.

395
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:37,840
I was like, whatever.

396
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,840
Like impressive, sure.

397
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:39,840
But, you know, I was like, whatever.

398
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:48,360
Now, I wish I paid more attention, but could I shit over though?

399
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:54,080
So as you guys met, he's about 10, just over 10 years into his career then.

400
00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:00,960
So, you know, retrospectively now with this, you know, sadly, widow's lens that you have,

401
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,520
where was he mentally at that point?

402
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:11,240
He was good until about 2019 when really I noticed a behavior change.

403
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:17,440
It was like completely like a 360 in 2019 where I was like, this is not the man I know.

404
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,760
I mean, there were moments where I was like, OK, he's he's acting a little bit obsessive.

405
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:27,440
But then again, to me, Frank was like such he was focused.

406
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,440
He had tunnel vision and he wants to do something.

407
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,960
Anything else doesn't matter, and he just focuses on that task until he achieves it.

408
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,320
He was an overachiever and he did achieve whatever he wanted to put his mind like to

409
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,040
get or achieve or whatever.

410
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,040
Right.

411
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,360
So in 2019, he just started saying things that did not make sense anymore.

412
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,000
And his behavior was a little bit erratic.

413
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,240
And I'm like, OK, he's not OK anymore.

414
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,440
Like we're having a crisis here.

415
00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:03,560
So 2019 was really like a big year of the shit show, I guess.

416
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,560
Yeah.

417
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,080
It's interesting because we do such a good job of hiding it.

418
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,840
And this is what's so sad is you hear a lot of people and it's two things.

419
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,120
I felt like I was weak and everyone else seemed to be fine.

420
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,800
And actually, if you climb inside someone else's head, they're thinking exactly the

421
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:21,800
same thing.

422
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,600
Looking back at the person who was thinking that.

423
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,640
So in this profession, we have to wear a mask.

424
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,160
If we're on a call and it's a life or death incident, you can't be showing your emotions

425
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,160
on your face.

426
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,820
It's just going to freak the patient out.

427
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:36,000
So you have to have that.

428
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,920
But the problem is some of us are so good at hiding it.

429
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,080
The number of times that I've heard the comment, oh, that was the last person I expected

430
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,080
to do that.

431
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,920
Well, that's because they just hid it well.

432
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:46,920
It's true.

433
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,720
I mean, he had a great poker face.

434
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,480
You look at him, you would think that nothing bothered him.

435
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Just the way he carried himself and the way he looked and just even responding to calls.

436
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,520
Everybody loved him because he was such a pillar in his work, in the department that

437
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,520
he worked for.

438
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,320
He had achieved a lot and he proved it too.

439
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,160
So he walked the walk and talked the talk and everyone looked up to him.

440
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:17,480
And the way he just carried himself, he was just a symbol of strength pretty much.

441
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:23,680
And then in 2019, that's when he just unraveled very quickly too.

442
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,320
Well let's go back just so that we can paint the kind of father he was as well.

443
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,880
So talk to me about the birth of the two children.

444
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:36,160
Oh, Frank wanted to choose the sex of our baby when we first got together.

445
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,880
He's very tunnel visioned.

446
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,880
He was a planner.

447
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,960
He wanted things a certain way.

448
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,120
And I was just like, whatever.

449
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:47,800
He talked me into having kids because I didn't want to have kids at first.

450
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,800
I'm like, I don't want kids.

451
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,160
So I have two younger sisters and I helped raise my younger sisters.

452
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,120
So I was like, I'm still young.

453
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:56,120
I don't want kids.

454
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,120
And he's like, no, it's going to be perfect.

455
00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:59,120
I waited so long.

456
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:00,120
I'm like, you know what?

457
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:01,440
Yeah, I do love you.

458
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,720
Why not?

459
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,640
So he researched, he read the book, How to Choose the Sex of Your Baby.

460
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,160
And he wanted a son at first, just like all men does, right?

461
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,080
Like first born should be a son.

462
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,920
So like, can take care of your daughter, of this sister and be like a protector or whatever.

463
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,680
You want a junior.

464
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,920
So he tried to research about that.

465
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,920
Obviously that didn't work out.

466
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:23,920
We had a girl.

467
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,160
And then we had Frankie four years later.

468
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,200
But he, Frank was an amazing father.

469
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,720
He was the greatest dad to our kids.

470
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,720
Amazing, amazing dad.

471
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:43,480
I'm so blessed to have him as my partner and to be the father of our children.

472
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,000
He obviously wasn't paying attention at the reproduction chapter of his biology class

473
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,000
in high school.

474
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,320
Yeah, but you know, God blessed us with a girl first.

475
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,320
So yeah, beautiful.

476
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,680
Well, while he's going through that age now, you've met, you're having children.

477
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,680
Talk to me about the frequency that he was at work.

478
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,040
I mean, were they well staffed?

479
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:13,120
Were there any kind of, you know, forced overtime or was he volunteering for extra work?

480
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,520
Just because I mean, this is something that I talk about a lot.

481
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,360
One of the pieces of the puzzle of mental health is obviously sleep deprivation and

482
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:21,960
that can factor in as well.

483
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:27,680
No, actually, we're very lucky because the department that we worked for, you know, there

484
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,320
was no issue with forced overtime, really.

485
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,240
They were well staffed.

486
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,880
So Frank was, you know, there were over times available, but it wasn't like he was forced,

487
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,440
not unless there's like a hurricane or anything like that where, okay, it's mandatory.

488
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,560
But he was never forced.

489
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,160
There was never like a forced overtime for the department that he worked for.

490
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,720
So he had a good work balance there.

491
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:54,720
Excellent.

492
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,720
Yeah.

493
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,640
So then let's walk through to 2019 then.

494
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,760
So you've got, you know, this husband, this father, this respected firefighter, this respected

495
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,640
martial artist, and he seems to be thriving.

496
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,560
Talk to me about the beginning of that unraveling in 2019.

497
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:17,440
Well, actually, throughout his career in Sunrise, so he started also veering towards the politics

498
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,960
side of, you know, the department as well.

499
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:27,800
So he was also the union president for their department in the city, for the city of Sunrise

500
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:28,800
Fire Department.

501
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,640
So he was the union president and he also got involved in the pension.

502
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:39,160
So he was first, I guess, like a board member for the pension board for the fire department,

503
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,840
and then he became eventually became a chairman.

504
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,120
So he was in that position for a long time.

505
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:52,240
And in 2019, when he's when we started seeing him unravel slowly, it was like he started

506
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,360
talking a lot about the numbers and something was wrong.

507
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,200
There's corruption and all that stuff.

508
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,480
And that's when we were like, OK, something's not right here.

509
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,800
And he was very adamant about something that he found in the pension and all that stuff,

510
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,080
which to me, he's never spoken about stuff like that before.

511
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,880
And what he was saying just did not make sense to me.

512
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,280
And he wasn't sleeping as well.

513
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,560
And he was just borderline.

514
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,960
He had psychosis pretty much because he was saying that, you know, Sunrise was out to

515
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:26,960
get him.

516
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,200
The city was out to get him.

517
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,440
I was working for the city and the city controlled me and that, you know, he was going to meet

518
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,120
the president at the time it was Trump.

519
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,280
The president was going to come down here and meet him.

520
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,880
DeSantis was going to come and meet him and he was going to write a bill for the Senate.

521
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,920
It was just like a big jumbo of different things that he was just his mind was just

522
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,760
going a thousand miles an hour.

523
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,520
Nothing made sense to me anymore.

524
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,240
And that's I'm like, OK, something's wrong.

525
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,920
So how did that start affecting you, the kids, his work life?

526
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,360
You can talk to me about the kind of ripple effects of this trauma that was going on in

527
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,360
his own mind.

528
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:13,400
Well, initially, I tried to be as supportive as I can because obviously I'm not involved

529
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,480
in his work.

530
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,040
I don't know or back then I did not know the inner workings of the pension board.

531
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,440
I did not know the inner workings of the union work.

532
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,240
So and the politics as well.

533
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,520
So I was like, OK, I'll hear you out and hear what you have to say.

534
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,880
And I tried to be as understanding as possible.

535
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,560
But when he started rambling things off and accusing me of working for the city and that

536
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,960
the city's got to me and they're paying me and I was talking to different people from

537
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,600
the city, I'm like, that's not true.

538
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:45,600
I'm not doing that.

539
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,280
I'm here at home taking care of you and the kids.

540
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,280
We're so busy.

541
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:54,440
I'm so busy trying to take care of the household and our children, their after school activities.

542
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,520
I'm like, that's not true at all.

543
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,320
And he was so insistent and adamant about that.

544
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,960
I'm like, OK, this is not right.

545
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,400
It's not making sense.

546
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,600
And what you're telling me is not making sense as well.

547
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,760
And you don't have proof.

548
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,640
Like I was asking him for proof because obviously I believe him is my husband.

549
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,880
But he just kept saying things and just telling me all these things.

550
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,200
I'm like, I understand that.

551
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,200
Let's take one step at a time.

552
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,680
OK, if you think you have something on this company, break it down for me.

553
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,240
Let's talk it through and just slow it down.

554
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,320
But he was also speaking like a thousand miles per hour and nothing he said would make sense.

555
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,600
It was like almost like a run on sentence of just one thing after another.

556
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,840
And he wasn't sleeping.

557
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,440
So he was just like it just nothing made sense.

558
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,240
It was like it was kind of scary.

559
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,880
But I had to find a composure, I guess, to deal with him and just settle everything down

560
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:58,800
because if I would have fought with him at the time, it would have been like a shit show.

561
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,480
And I wouldn't be able to get through the bottom of things.

562
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,800
So I tried to like stay back as long as I could until I knew that, OK, something is

563
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:13,600
like when I had, I guess, like a sign that, OK, he's not well, he's going off, he's doing

564
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:14,600
random things.

565
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,600
I can't get a hold of him.

566
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,880
That's when I really got scared.

567
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,000
And what ended up having to happen?

568
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,360
Because I mean, this is, I think, an important conversation.

569
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,280
There's so many levels from suicides to psychosis to even homicide.

570
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,120
I just interviewed a firefighter from California when they had that murder suicide in their

571
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,160
station and it's all related to the same thing.

572
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,080
It's a psychosis.

573
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,760
But there can be an outward projection on the family.

574
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,680
There can be a point where the husband or the wife and the children don't feel safe

575
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,680
anymore.

576
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,680
Right.

577
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,640
Well, with Frank, actually, so he started not sleeping a lot.

578
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,040
And he was just like telling me that what scared me the most was him saying that this

579
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,840
SWAT team is going to come to our house and that they were going to all kill us.

580
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,680
And that's when I'm like, OK, this is not normal anymore.

581
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,180
It's not normal behavior that you're actually even thinking of that.

582
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:17,760
So I was telling him, like, either you move out or I move out because I did not feel safe

583
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,040
anymore because nothing made sense.

584
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,160
What he was saying was not making sense.

585
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,160
He was not sleeping.

586
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,120
He was driving all over the place.

587
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,120
I couldn't get a hold of him.

588
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:31,920
He would block me and he just seemed to like see me as a person that worked for the city

589
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,760
and hated the city at the time.

590
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,860
So I couldn't even speak to him one on one because everything he said to me was like

591
00:33:39,860 --> 00:33:43,080
accusatory that I was the enemy.

592
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,200
And I was worried for our children, too.

593
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:52,920
Not once has he ever been physically abusive towards me ever, our whole entire marriage.

594
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,960
Even then, I did not feel like I was I did not feel a threat.

595
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,520
But the psychosis scared me.

596
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,080
Like his eyes changed the way he spoke to me, changed the way he would speak to our

597
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,080
daughter change.

598
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,320
It was almost a different person.

599
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,720
And you know, he would talk to strangers for like hours.

600
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:14,720
He would call the cops.

601
00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:20,840
He would call 911 and tell them to send the news here over our house because he said that

602
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,160
he had something against the city.

603
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,580
So it was just.

604
00:34:26,580 --> 00:34:28,040
It was a very tough time.

605
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,480
I didn't know what was going on as well, but I was just trying to just.

606
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,000
I guess trying to survive.

607
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,540
It was chaotic.

608
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:42,560
It was complete chaos pretty much because he was also a big act.

609
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,360
Yeah, he was big.

610
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:50,400
I did quite a few times before all this shit happened.

611
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,400
I think this is, you know, it's so important to have this conversation.

612
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,520
I want to get to something I've heard from a lot of people that have been right there,

613
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,660
not so much in the psychosis state, but certainly in the suicidal state.

614
00:35:01,660 --> 00:35:08,160
But before we even do putting that compassion back into events like this, when you realize

615
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,820
someone's entire reality has been shifted.

616
00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,640
So you and I believe that it's normal that we're sitting in our respective rooms in front

617
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,200
of a computer talking to a microphone.

618
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,200
That's our reality.

619
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,440
You know, but if I look out the window and I see Russians marching down the road and

620
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,920
that's truly what my brain is telling me is the truth, then from the outside, I'm going

621
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,480
to seem like a crazy person.

622
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,600
So you know, just when you realize that these people are sick, they are broken.

623
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,760
I mean, that in a compassionate way, then you can actually view it with a much more

624
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,160
empathetic lens.

625
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,640
But if we're just like, oh, what's wrong with him?

626
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,640
You know, he's a piece of shit now.

627
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,400
Then you never get to the root cause of why instead of saying what's wrong with you,

628
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,200
you say what happened to you?

629
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,120
How have you got to this point and how do we pull you back from it?

630
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,600
I completely agree.

631
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,440
I think that was the problem initially, right?

632
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,000
Because you know, he was saying all these things and we were like, what is wrong with

633
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,000
you?

634
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,000
That's not true.

635
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,120
And I think that was partly, I blame myself, I wish I knew now.

636
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:17,200
I think me asking him what's wrong with you instead of trying to help him navigate, you

637
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,680
know, his way through hell.

638
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:26,280
I guess that kind of made things worse at the time because it was like, he's clearly

639
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,280
needed help.

640
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:33,200
He was psychotic, but it was almost like me not knowing what I was doing kind of just

641
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,400
like we butt heads because I just wanted to just make him stop.

642
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,600
He wanted to express something that he thought in you and I was trying to like also argue

643
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,760
with him that what he saw or what he thought was not true.

644
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,880
And I wish, you know, I wish we have resources for stuff like that in school for our kids

645
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,760
or just every day.

646
00:36:54,760 --> 00:37:01,320
I think that kind of things needs to be like in our society, we need to talk more about

647
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,640
that, be empathetic, be kind and be compassionate, especially when it comes to mental illness

648
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,600
because you're right, when you're mentally ill, that's what your brain's telling you.

649
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,400
So you believe it.

650
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,040
Unfortunately, we're not taught that at school or anywhere else.

651
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,960
And like, it's a little too late for me now to, you know, to learn that.

652
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,760
But I mean, moving forward, now I do.

653
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,920
But when my husband was going through that, that was, that was really tough because I've

654
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,800
never dealt with anything like that ever, ever.

655
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,600
What was the impact of the Baker Act on his behavior?

656
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,320
The reason I asked that firstly, I had a horrendous experience with my son when he was younger

657
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,200
that actually was Baker acted against, you know, for no reason basically whatsoever other

658
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,520
than he was just sad.

659
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,760
He was going through some stuff in his mother's house and was crying in class.

660
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:58,080
But that particular moment, the SRO and the principal made a fucking horrendous, you know,

661
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,640
decision mistake that now they've changed the law.

662
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,400
They'd be they'd be locked up for doing the same thing.

663
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,520
They'd be kidnapped my child.

664
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,400
So I saw the impact of that on him.

665
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,000
I mean, that trauma lasted years.

666
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,480
I mean, arguably till today.

667
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,800
But I've had people in the psychology world on here as well that say that, you know, even

668
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,480
the science shows that the Baker Act actually makes it worse, not better.

669
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:23,200
So what was what was your perspective of him and that experience?

670
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:30,320
In some ways, because he was so psychotic and he was so out of control.

671
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,800
Selfishly for us, it was almost like a relief because he's not driving around, not getting

672
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,560
into trouble, not doing things that he's not supposed to be doing.

673
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,920
And we're like, OK, he's in a controlled environment.

674
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,680
But for him at the time, I did see how it made it worse.

675
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:47,680
It made him angrier.

676
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,200
It made him feel less of a man.

677
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,000
And I'm sure it gave him PTSD.

678
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,000
For sure.

679
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,000
I know it.

680
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,000
I know it did.

681
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,840
But it did tell me how it made things worse for him, especially.

682
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,200
Just before he passed away, because he was in the hospital for almost a month just before

683
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,800
he passed away.

684
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:11,080
And he said he never, ever wanted to go back at the hospital setting ever again.

685
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,400
And he said that last stay at the hospital broke him.

686
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,600
Yeah, it did.

687
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,640
He said it's horrible.

688
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,800
And I'm just obviously relaying what he said to me.

689
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,800
Yeah.

690
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,720
What about the sense of burdensome?

691
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:35,160
The thing that I've heard, I touched on before, from so many people that you don't hear in

692
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,400
mental health conversations, again, when that brain has been miswired.

693
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,760
So now what's real to them from the outside looking in doesn't make any sense to us.

694
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,760
But they truly find themselves at a point where they believe that they are a burden

695
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,000
to their family, to their wife or husband, to their children.

696
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:01,040
And therefore, suicide actually becomes a courageous, selfless act, in contrary to all

697
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,640
the judgmental comments that people have usually.

698
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,520
Because a healthy brain is trying to understand what an unhealthy brain has done.

699
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,120
Did he ever kind of mention seeming like he was a burden to you guys?

700
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:15,120
Every day he would tell me.

701
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:21,840
Every day he would tell me, he would tell me that we were better off without him here.

702
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:22,840
And he was embarrassed.

703
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,600
And when he had put us through, he was embarrassed for our kids.

704
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,600
He was embarrassed for me.

705
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,120
And he was sorry for everything that he had done.

706
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:39,600
And he thought that our life would be better off without him.

707
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,600
And this is a problem.

708
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:47,600
If we try and hang on to that old way of looking at it, all we're doing is adding more guilt

709
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,840
and more shame to someone who's drowning in guilt and shame.

710
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,840
Absolutely.

711
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,960
And for him, he was a 30-year firefighter.

712
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,880
So he was also forced to resign from his position.

713
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,400
Because obviously, when he was manic, he wasn't following protocols.

714
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,640
Because he was in the right frame of mind.

715
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:17,800
So when they had told him to go for a fitness evaluation, he wouldn't do it.

716
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,960
He thought nothing was wrong with him and that we were all stupid.

717
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:20,960
He was a genius.

718
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,520
He was above the law.

719
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,840
So when he was forced to resign, I think it broke him.

720
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,840
He was also in jail.

721
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,240
So he got arrested as well.

722
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:38,160
My husband spent time at the North Broward jail for a few months because he was recording

723
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,480
his phone conversation with the fire chief.

724
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:47,280
And I think at the time, his assistant city manager posted it on Facebook without informing

725
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,740
them.

726
00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:50,320
So he got those charges.

727
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,240
And I had also had to file a restraining order against him because he started staying at

728
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:59,960
a hotel with a random stranger at the time.

729
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,000
And like I said, he thought that I was working for this city.

730
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,720
And he was just so out of control.

731
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:07,080
I couldn't get a hold of him.

732
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,040
I didn't know who the guy was.

733
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,240
And everything, the guy was using him as a free meal, pretty much.

734
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:17,320
And the guy said that he was sent by Jesus and would pray over him.

735
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,200
And Frank thought that he was sent by God.

736
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:22,480
And he was a minister.

737
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,880
So he was his spiritual advisor.

738
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,600
That's what he had told me.

739
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,200
So I didn't trust the guy.

740
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,140
I didn't trust what he was trying to tell Frank.

741
00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:34,440
In my head, I got paranoid.

742
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,720
I'm like, what if he told Frank to kill me?

743
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:42,240
Or, you know, just I just didn't know who this person was.

744
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:47,000
So when Frank posted the videos, he got charges for that.

745
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:53,240
And then when he, I guess, when he broke the injunction, he got arrested for that.

746
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,920
And then he spent time in jail.

747
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:03,080
But luckily, his case got transferred to mental health court where he was ordered to go down

748
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,840
to Miami and to spend some time there at the facility.

749
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,800
And that's where he kind of started coming down from his mania.

750
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,480
Because even in jail, he was quite manic and he was in isolation.

751
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:21,160
He had to wear the red jumpsuit when I had to see him report.

752
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,200
So he was that severe.

753
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:28,600
But I can see how obviously the department's hands would be tied if this was what was going

754
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,600
on.

755
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:30,600
And I totally understand that.

756
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:37,600
But looking back at it now, you have someone who's already in crisis and then their tribe

757
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,760
is stripped for them, that their purpose, their identity.

758
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,720
I mean, he was a proud firefighter.

759
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:47,360
And we have this with people that retire with somewhat good mental health compared to what

760
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,600
was Frank was enduring at that point.

761
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,880
And it crushes them being taken that bay door closing for the last time.

762
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,160
And now you're not on that rig.

763
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:56,760
You're not in that station.

764
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:03,600
So again, with hindsight being 2020, there may not be an opportunity to keep him employed

765
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,160
or maybe there will be an opportunity to just kind of hit the pause button on the whole

766
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,160
thing.

767
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:12,360
But understanding that when we do terminate someone who's struggling, again, we're adding

768
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:19,320
even more trauma to that person because their healing tribe was the people that they work

769
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:20,320
with in uniform.

770
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:21,920
And now you've snatched that from them.

771
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:22,920
And again, it might be justified.

772
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,920
It might not, but it's still something for us to acknowledge.

773
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:26,920
Absolutely.

774
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:32,400
I truly believe, like I said, I totally understand where the department was coming from.

775
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:33,400
Their hands were tied.

776
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,960
They felt like maybe their back was against the wall and what happened to Frank was the

777
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,320
first time that has ever happened in that department ever.

778
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,560
And here's this man who was a pillar within their department, who was a union president,

779
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:54,560
30 year employee, a captain.

780
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,640
He was pretty much the guy over there that everybody looked up to.

781
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,680
And it was unfortunate what happened.

782
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:10,120
And like I see both sides and I don't really blame them because obviously a lot has to

783
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:11,120
play into it.

784
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,480
But I wish it could have been better for sure.

785
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,480
Absolutely.

786
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:20,360
It could have maybe been other ways, you know, but then their backs were tied too and their

787
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,760
hands were tied and their backs were against the wall.

788
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,280
So it was a very complicated, I guess, situation.

789
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:35,680
But I do hope moving forward, you know, I do think that they have learned what not to

790
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:44,160
do and use Frank's what happened to Frank is like, you know, I guess an example of what

791
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,920
not to do or whomever may be in crisis next time.

792
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,120
Yeah.

793
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,080
Before we kind of progress on, Frank had pretty much hit 30 years.

794
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,640
Had you discussed retirement or was he still planning on working for a while yet?

795
00:45:58,640 --> 00:45:59,640
Yeah.

796
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,880
So Frank was he had a plan.

797
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,760
He was a planner.

798
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,640
He wanted to see things a certain way and he always accomplished whatever he had in

799
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:10,640
his checklist.

800
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,600
So he had two years left.

801
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:13,600
He was already in the drop.

802
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,600
So he had two years left.

803
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,720
So he wanted to finish the whole seven year because they had a seven year drop at the

804
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:20,720
time.

805
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,360
And for him, like after he retired, he wanted to still work.

806
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:29,640
He wanted to maybe perhaps dabble into consulting because he was really good with numbers and

807
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,960
he was also in the pension board.

808
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:32,960
So he loved math.

809
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,080
He loved numbers.

810
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,840
And he wanted to also buy a property, well, build a property in St. Martin and have that

811
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,520
as like, you know, an Airbnb and just go back and forth and travel the world.

812
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,520
That's what he wanted to do.

813
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:53,000
Like you were supposed to enjoy retirement, be his own boss and do consulting and travel

814
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,400
the world and have rental properties as well.

815
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:58,560
That was his goal.

816
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,240
That was the ultimate goal that he wanted to do because he was fairly young.

817
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:03,240
Yeah.

818
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:04,760
Now this makes it even more tragic.

819
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,560
I mean, he was almost there when this all kind of started cascading down.

820
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:09,560
Right.

821
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:10,560
Absolutely.

822
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,800
And, you know, I think that's what hurt him because everything that he had to work hard

823
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:21,720
for all his life just pretty much came crashing around him.

824
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:25,240
He didn't have the retirement he wanted.

825
00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:30,480
He didn't leave the city that he worked for, the fire department that he worked for in

826
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,560
his own terms.

827
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:38,200
And he left with feeling the stigma of him being sick, being so manic.

828
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:43,280
And that's what he was like so embarrassed about and so afraid that people will remember

829
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:49,400
him in that capacity instead of the good things that he did for the residents, for his brothers

830
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,920
and sisters in the department.

831
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,840
So I'm trying to change that perspective.

832
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,880
Well even the element of organizational betrayal, which may not have been deliberate in this

833
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:05,420
particular case, but it was certainly perceived in the way that he viewed it.

834
00:48:05,420 --> 00:48:08,520
You wear that patch on your shoulder.

835
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:09,520
That's who you protect.

836
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,360
Again, it's your tribe, but it's everything.

837
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,800
And then if they turn their backs on you or you perceive that they turn their backs on

838
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:22,880
you, that's yet another layer to this Jenga, you know, kind of mental health model that

839
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:23,880
we're talking about.

840
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,880
Oh, definitely.

841
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,880
He thought that they turned their backs on him.

842
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:33,520
Like I had told him, I'm like, it's not that they turned their back on you.

843
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,200
Their hands were tied.

844
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,800
Their back was against the wall.

845
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:42,080
I, you know, I had to be in the middle and I had to look at it in a realistic way as

846
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,080
well.

847
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,680
Of course I want to, I want to take my husband's side, but at the same time, I'm a realist

848
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,920
and I saw where they were coming from, the other side of the spectrum as well.

849
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:58,240
So even though, yes, these are your friends, they also have a job to do.

850
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:02,960
They had to make sure also they, they go by protocol and all that stuff.

851
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,320
I just wish there was other ways into doing that and that, you know, we could have prolonged

852
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:13,200
him until he was a little bit better for, for them to force him into retirement.

853
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,200
Absolutely.

854
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:15,200
All right.

855
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,200
Well then let's talk about March 29th, 2022.

856
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:32,720
Unfortunately, that was the day that Frank decided to retire.

857
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:41,200
Frank decided to take his life.

858
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:53,160
I found him and I wish that they had never left the house.

859
00:49:53,160 --> 00:50:00,200
I think he decided to like take his life maybe right after I left the house to go to the

860
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,160
store that morning.

861
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,680
He was just discharged from the hospital a week before that.

862
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:14,480
So that morning I was just telling him to get up because he was just laying in bed.

863
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,480
He didn't not want to get up.

864
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,040
He was big reacted a month before that because that's what he would just do.

865
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,040
He was just so depressed.

866
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,400
He did not want to get up.

867
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,400
So I told him that morning when I came home after we dropped, after I dropped off our

868
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,320
son, I was like, okay, you need to get up now.

869
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:31,320
You can't just lay in bed.

870
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,320
You did this before.

871
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:33,320
And look what happened.

872
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,720
You were big, I'm like, I think we have to change things and he didn't want to get up.

873
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:45,760
So I started crying and getting very frustrated with him because I just felt like the world

874
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:46,760
was closing in.

875
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,440
I didn't know what to do anymore.

876
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,280
He was just at the hospital for a month and then I'm like, what do we do?

877
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,280
Please get up, get up.

878
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,280
Let's go for a walk.

879
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:55,280
He didn't feel like walking.

880
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,320
He didn't want to do anything.

881
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:02,600
And I started yelling and crying and I'm like, I don't know if I can do this anymore.

882
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,720
I'm like, you have to do something.

883
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:06,080
You have to get up.

884
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,120
So eventually he did get up, but I was upset.

885
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:15,680
So I left the house and when it came home, I heard him in the garage and I thought, okay,

886
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:16,680
he's working out.

887
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:22,520
So we were in the garage the night before working out and I left him there.

888
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,240
I'm like, okay, I'll just go to the store real quick and then I'll come back and get

889
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:28,320
him when it's time to pick up our son.

890
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,200
I heard things in the garage, not thinking anything of it.

891
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,320
I just thought that maybe, okay, he decided to go work out.

892
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,920
So I left the house and when I came back, when it was almost time to pick up our son,

893
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:40,920
I found him.

894
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:47,560
I was a little too late.

895
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:54,640
I'm so sorry to even get you to go back there in your mind, but I think it's so important

896
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,880
that people hear the impact on the family and not maybe the person in crisis.

897
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,200
Because like I said, in their mind, they think they're doing something for their family.

898
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,760
They think they're doing the right solution, but it's everyone else, all of us around that

899
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,000
should be looking out for our brothers and sisters that are struggling and this is the

900
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,160
impact.

901
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,840
So what about the children?

902
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,400
You found him.

903
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:21,520
Talk to me about how the next few days and week went as far as telling your beloved kids

904
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,240
and the rest of the family.

905
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:28,960
Well, that was like around, I came home like around maybe 1 20, 1 30.

906
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:35,560
Our son, the school dismissal is at two o'clock and that's why I came home like around 1 30

907
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,200
because we would always pick him up from school because obviously he's retired now.

908
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,480
So we would pick him up from school and we were never late.

909
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,920
We're always there early.

910
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:55,400
And at that time when I found him, I had to call 911 and I like I didn't know what to

911
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,400
do.

912
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,240
Our daughter was at college at FSU, so she wasn't home.

913
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:02,760
And I was just like so freaked out.

914
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,360
I opened the garage door and neighbor came and ran and called 911 and police came, fire

915
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,560
rescue came and obviously they had to pronounce them.

916
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:18,640
But and then I started freaking out, I'm like my son, he's at school and this time it was

917
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,160
like around 2 15 maybe.

918
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,240
And I think that's when he started getting worried because two o'clock we were not there.

919
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:31,880
So he's I believe he started calling his sister over there in Tallahassee and she was trying

920
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,640
to call me and I couldn't talk to her.

921
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,640
And I think that's when like he felt maybe something was wrong.

922
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:43,120
But luckily one of the police officers I contacted to school and tried to find my son and just

923
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,840
kept him in the guidance consular's office I think.

924
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,960
And you know just they didn't say anything to him I don't think.

925
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,320
I think they just said something came up or whatever.

926
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,760
And Kayla was just wondering what's going on.

927
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,920
She was trying to FaceTime me trying to find out what's going on and eventually like I

928
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:06,840
had to pick up and that's when I told her.

929
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:19,240
And that was he was an amazing father and that really broke my heart because I had to

930
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:29,000
tell her on a phone on FaceTime and then picking up my son and telling him as well that his

931
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,000
dad is gone.

932
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:38,840
And it's just he said goodbye to his dad that morning you know he told him he loved him.

933
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:44,000
Not knowing that was the last time.

934
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,400
That was tough.

935
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,240
It's horrendous.

936
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:57,160
How as a family were you able to start navigating those first few weeks?

937
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,680
I mean talk to me about that road of grief that you had to go through.

938
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:05,680
I am so blessed and grateful for my family.

939
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,560
My mom and my sisters immediately came the very next day.

940
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:17,320
They flew in from Texas and they were all here to just help us get through this.

941
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:26,560
My daughter actually flew in that night from Tallahassee and so like we just banded together

942
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,840
and just like family just they just helped me so much.

943
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:39,200
I'm just so blessed that I have a family that they helped pick us up.

944
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:45,160
We're very close so that was a blessing.

945
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:50,720
Going back to Frank, had he tried counseling on some of these other things that we were

946
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:51,720
told about initially?

947
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:52,720
Yes, he definitely did.

948
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:58,760
He was going he was seeing his therapist once a week sometimes twice a week.

949
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,600
He was diligent in taking all his medications.

950
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:09,560
He was actually in the midst of doing his second round of ECT at the hospital.

951
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:17,800
He went and did a CTT and ECT Monday and he passed away Tuesday and that was I believe

952
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,000
his fifth session of ECT.

953
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:27,200
He was scheduled to go on a Wednesday and March 29th was a Tuesday.

954
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:32,560
So he was really diligent in doing all that stuff but unfortunately towards the end it

955
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,120
was just a treatment of persistent depression.

956
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,520
He just couldn't see himself getting better even at the hospital.

957
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:46,760
When he was at the hospital for that one month he thought that the city had sent an undercover

958
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:53,480
officer for him over there and he kept telling me that he thinks that he was going to spend

959
00:56:53,480 --> 00:57:00,720
the rest of his life in a state facility because he didn't see himself getting any better.

960
00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:05,800
We had talked about ketamine and other you know like we didn't try ketamine but he had

961
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,520
mentioned ketamine to me but he was hesitant about that too because he just thought so

962
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:11,520
hopeless.

963
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,880
He just didn't think anything would help by then.

964
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,600
This is what's so sad and it's of course not a guarantee by any means but the stigma around

965
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:25,600
because of our drug prohibition laws that prevents first responders, military, medical

966
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:30,400
people etc from accessing possibly the treatments that would have saved their lives.

967
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,120
The only reason I say that is I know I've had so many people on the show, I've got numerous

968
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:41,080
friends that were at the absolute end of their rope and it was an ayahuasca or an ibogaine

969
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:46,560
or a ketamine therapy retreat that ultimately helps them turn the corner and it's not a

970
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:47,560
magic pill.

971
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:52,200
They didn't just do one session and go oh I'm fine now but it allowed them to access

972
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:57,900
the thing beneath the thing as they say really kind of get to the genesis or the nucleus

973
00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:02,680
of their trauma and then start unpacking it with the right kind of shaman counselor whoever

974
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:04,760
it is that they've chosen.

975
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:09,040
But how many people have we lost because that was the last thing that they went rather than

976
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:14,760
that being one of the first thing that they're offered and if it's of the magnitude that

977
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,320
clearly Frank was suffering from then arguably maybe talk therapy wasn't the first, the

978
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:21,320
right go to.

979
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,880
Maybe it needed something a little deeper than that if he had that depth of depression

980
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:26,640
and trauma.

981
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:32,360
I totally agree absolutely and it just still baffles me also with some of the medications

982
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:33,360
that he was prescribed.

983
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:39,680
I mean some of them it seemed like he was a zombie, it was just he would be catatonic

984
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:46,320
with some of the medications he was taking or it wasn't doing anything for him at all.

985
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,360
If anything some of these medications made him worse too.

986
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:56,800
So it was like a gamble as far as like prescribing him medications.

987
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:01,680
He went through so many medications and I don't know like I just feel so strongly about

988
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:07,440
it because I feel like he would see a doctor and he would tell them his symptoms or you

989
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,840
know after a month or so taking this medication it's not working blah blah blah.

990
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:16,880
They will prescribe them a different medication but there's no leaning off.

991
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:22,040
They just tell them okay you can discontinue your current medication right now and start

992
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,640
on this new one today or tomorrow.

993
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,400
Well what is it doing to your brain, your body chemistry like that medication is still

994
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:31,400
in your system.

995
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:38,080
How can we just make them take this new medication without making sure that's out of your system

996
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:39,400
and then start the new one.

997
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:45,600
How about we slowly start tapering off not just start with this new medication and sometimes

998
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:50,360
they're like you know 500, 700 milligrams per tablet and it's three times a day or

999
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,360
something like that.

1000
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:52,360
Who does that?

1001
00:59:52,360 --> 01:00:01,120
I just feel like it's an experiment, a science experiment on a person, on a human being and

1002
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:02,520
it shouldn't be outlawed.

1003
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:04,200
It's just not right.

1004
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,920
Well two things I've heard you know from a lot of people, a huge amount of people including

1005
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,080
you know many many people in the psychology space that say you know the efficacy of these

1006
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:20,280
psych pills are basically almost equating to the god what do they call that?

1007
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:27,480
I just had the bloody word in my head and it fell out my my placebo.

1008
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:32,360
So yeah so you know almost like a 50-50 flip a coin and then the other thing that I've

1009
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:37,480
heard mentioned numerous times is that nearly all the school shootings that we have the

1010
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,120
shooter was on a psychiatric med.

1011
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,080
Now you could argue yeah because they were mentally ill.

1012
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:47,200
You can look at it the other way and go did that cause someone who was merely just depressed

1013
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:52,120
and turn them into psychotic and the thing is if you listen to a lot of the warning you

1014
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,760
know label speeches on these avarice of these pills it says you know suicidal ideation all

1015
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,200
these things you know may cause all that.

1016
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:00,520
Well this is supposed to be fixing it.

1017
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:01,920
Why is it causing it you know?

1018
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:08,440
So I agree 100 percent you know if we're prescribing these pills they there is no doubt that that

1019
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:15,000
was you know a big part of turning someone who was merely anxious and or depressed and

1020
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,200
getting to that point of psychosis.

1021
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:18,200
Right.

1022
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:25,640
I think it really attributed to that path you know even towards destruction almost because

1023
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:31,080
you're so knee deep into the medication and sometimes it completely numbs you and you're

1024
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:38,120
almost catatonic and you're physically here but your mind that your mind body spiritual

1025
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:44,640
connection is almost gone because it's being numb by the medication and you're just like

1026
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:48,760
okay well maybe I'll just do this without really feeling and thinking anything anymore

1027
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:53,640
because the medicine has completely stripped you of humanity almost.

1028
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:59,880
Yeah well the other thing is if it's messing with your circadian rhythms if it's affecting

1029
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:06,400
your sleep quality well that's another very kind of toxic you know element that you're

1030
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,920
not even really aware of you know you think you're asleep but actually your sleep quality

1031
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:13,200
is terrible because you're on these psych meds which are deliberately affecting your

1032
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,880
brain so therefore for example some of the ones for ADHD they're stimulants if you're

1033
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,080
taking that are you getting a deep deep sleep or you know are you getting a very shallow

1034
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,200
sleep and you're waking up feeling like shit and you're a little bit more sleep deprived

1035
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,640
and then you know a lot of our men and women then go and do a 24 hour shift you know and

1036
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,440
it could be that could be alcohol could be all kinds of things but these are all the

1037
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:40,680
cumulative elements that contribute to some of our people having this perfect storm of

1038
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,480
psychosis or suicidal ideation.

1039
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:49,240
Absolutely I mean the one thing also that he kept telling me was like he couldn't

1040
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:56,800
sleep he wasn't sleeping then his he barely slept so I'm pretty sure even at the hospital

1041
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:02,000
when he was at the hospital for that extended period of time for almost a month he said

1042
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:07,040
he barely slept even though they gave him sleep medication and all that it still didn't

1043
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,800
work for him.

1044
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:13,960
Well it doesn't work sleep medication doesn't create good sleep it makes you unconscious

1045
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:19,120
and that's a big misnomer I think a big misunderstanding so you know if you look at there's a

1046
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:25,520
study on I think it was the Benadryl the drug in Benadryl and people took that you know

1047
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,880
it's basically the sleep aid version of the over-the-counter ones and if I think I've

1048
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:35,080
got the drug right in the study where they compared shift workers to people that took

1049
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:40,200
that every single night they both had the much lower life expectancy because both of

1050
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:45,960
them were experiencing sleep disruption so just because you're prescribed a medication

1051
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,520
that makes you close your eyes doesn't mean you're actually getting the quality of sleep

1052
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:50,520
that you need.

1053
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:58,160
Yeah unfortunately that he wasn't sleeping and he was just beside himself you know he

1054
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:04,640
was very frustrated with the way his life was turning out and here he was broken obviously

1055
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:11,760
to me he had PTSD from everything that has happened the last few years and now he's dealing

1056
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:18,200
with not sleeping hopelessness and everything else feeling like his world is just crashing

1057
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:27,400
down on him it was just he was just done he was exhausted and he did tell me he he didn't

1058
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,440
want to wish what he had on anyone else.

1059
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,640
Prior to that had he ever talked about calls that bothered him?

1060
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,880
Not really no he kept that separate.

1061
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:44,000
Because I think I mean my career for example I had you know I mean I was what they call

1062
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:49,280
a black cloud so I seem to get all the shitty calls never had a cardiac arrest save in 14

1063
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:54,480
years I was just that guy but there was never really one call that bothered me there was

1064
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:59,040
one I can think of with a child but you know if you ask me what was one of the worst things

1065
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,680
it would be that one but it wasn't like I really had an issue with it I had a little

1066
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:08,200
kind of mini flashback once one single time in Disney years ago when someone pushed a

1067
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:13,080
stroller and looked exactly the way the kid was in this car but what I think a lot of

1068
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:19,160
us do suffer from is the death by a thousand cuts it's not the one thing it's the cumulative

1069
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:23,200
you know element of all the things and I only had 14 years so Frank had more than double

1070
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:24,200
my career.

1071
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:33,480
Yeah he did mention one call before it was also like a teenager but he made it PG 13

1072
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:39,760
version you know so it wasn't this like gory or anything like that he just kind of like

1073
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:45,000
washed over it and he went to this car the kid didn't make it so that's how he would

1074
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:52,280
talk to me about some of the calls the tragic calls that he would get sometimes or he would

1075
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:57,960
just say oh it was just a hardship they just need to sleep and stuff so he'd never he was

1076
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:04,320
the type of guy that would just carry it within himself and find ways and how to deal with

1077
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:09,720
it and not bother me or make me worry about his calls even though I'll be like how is

1078
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:17,480
work you want to talk about anything he just pretty much kept that life separated from

1079
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,040
the personal stuff.

1080
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:26,040
So what about the tools that you and your kids use to navigate out of this horrendous

1081
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:30,400
loss of your husband slash father what were some of the things that you leaned into you

1082
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:35,160
said that you had you know everyone come surround you as far as a family did you find other

1083
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:40,080
counseling, therapy, sports anything else that really helped?

1084
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:48,720
Yes so right after Frank passed away obviously I we went to therapy and then my kids went

1085
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,520
to therapy I went to therapy then the insurances because we were under his insurance and at

1086
01:06:54,520 --> 01:07:00,440
the time you know I did Cobra for like a few months but it became very expensive right

1087
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:07,240
because Cobra is private insurance I had to get my own insurance unfortunately the insurance

1088
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:12,120
the private insurance that I purchased for my children and I did not cover behavioral

1089
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:19,800
health so therapy wasn't even included so I tried to reach out to different resources

1090
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:27,000
thankfully here where we live the school had a therapy I guess you can like a services

1091
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:33,560
and you know my son did go and initially he's like okay I'll go try it out whatever he went

1092
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:38,680
and they're like okay he seems to be handling it well and I don't want my son to be forced

1093
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:45,040
to go to therapy because to me if he if I see him handling it well and they say that

1094
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:50,320
he's handling it well I don't want him to have a bad taste in his mouth being forced

1095
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:56,680
to go to therapy I want therapy to be as a tool that it's okay to go to therapy but it's

1096
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:03,880
not force or mandatory so they went to therapy for a little bit so did my daughter and then

1097
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:09,240
she's like I don't think I need it because at the time she's already 20 and you know

1098
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:15,760
she's also was going to school for psychology as her major and she's like and she's level

1099
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:20,800
headed my thankfully our children are level headed and I could also see that they were

1100
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,000
handling their grief really well they're very strong and very courageous and I think they're

1101
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:30,840
very resilient so I was like okay as long as I have a good pulse on how they're behaving

1102
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:35,560
and how they're handling their grief then we're good as far as for me I had to do a

1103
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:43,600
lot of inner work so I sat with my grief and I let my grief become my friend for quite

1104
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:51,480
a while for like about a year right after Frank passed I started going back to training

1105
01:08:51,480 --> 01:08:56,200
his Frank did you just say I also did a little bit of jujitsu but I I'm not a competitor

1106
01:08:56,200 --> 01:09:02,800
like him I just do it as a workout so I started going back to jujitsu just to train and stuff

1107
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:10,800
and you know to me movement is therapy so I got more I feel like I got more out of that

1108
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:17,000
than seeing an actual therapist I did you know I would see a therapist like once a month

1109
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:24,080
or every other month or so it wasn't as consistent as going back on the mats and training yeah

1110
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:29,720
that's funny you said about about the children that's how my son was after that whole debacle

1111
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:34,800
we took him to counseling because it was you know completely detrimental and he just he

1112
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,680
didn't want to be there you know we didn't force it upon him we just kind of you know

1113
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,520
showed him that this is available for you he didn't connect with the counselor and and

1114
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,440
that was it but you know he leans into his sports he went into running now he's big into

1115
01:09:46,440 --> 01:09:51,480
skimboarding so he's off he's 16 now so he'll drive to the beach almost every weekend and

1116
01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:56,080
spend you know three or four hours on his own just trying to break his neck on the sand

1117
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:01,120
so yeah I mean that's really really important part of that I think is just kind of like

1118
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:05,880
we're talking about with the therapies that you know sadly weren't as evident and available

1119
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,840
to Frank when he mostly needed them but the toolbox that's available to us is much wider

1120
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,440
than we that we think when we go to someone in a traditional medical route of which of

1121
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:19,360
course there are some great practitioners out there but more often than not it's going

1122
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:24,280
to be talk therapy and psychiatric meds are the two main options but also outside of that

1123
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:28,680
everything as we touched on from psychedelics and you know and ketamine which obviously

1124
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,200
even now today everyone can get ketamine therapy if you find the right place because it is

1125
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:37,400
legal because of anesthesia but then you've also got equine therapy and diving and surfing

1126
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:42,100
retreats and all these things so there's so many other ways that you are still actively

1127
01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:47,160
pursuing your mental health you just don't need to sit on a couch and talk about your

1128
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:51,600
family but that might also be an invaluable part of that whole process.

1129
01:10:51,600 --> 01:11:00,560
Oh yeah I mean you know like I think we have this old stigma of therapy is a traditional

1130
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:05,880
therapy of going to just the office and sitting there and talking about stuff when all in

1131
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:11,680
all really it's therapy when it's making you feel good and if it's making you feel like

1132
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:17,240
okay you're releasing some of the stress that's inside of you whether it's through movement

1133
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:23,440
whether it's through painting or you know or cooking or anything like that that is therapy

1134
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:28,760
and unfortunately like people don't talk about that it's not being we're not being educated

1135
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:34,840
about the different ways how we can help I guess de-stress and take care of our mental

1136
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,880
health through those options.

1137
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:44,200
Absolutely well speaking of that like you said you know I hear this phrase all the time

1138
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:48,520
people did the best with what they had at the time and I think that's a very fair statement

1139
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:54,120
you know how we think about mental health in 2024 is very different than 2014 even you

1140
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,960
know I think my my journey into this began around them when we started having suicides

1141
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,960
and they were finally being spoken about.

1142
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:07,880
As we sit here today though what are you hoping that fire departments listening will do as

1143
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:14,160
far as creating change and improving the environment so maybe we can catch the next one who's falling?

1144
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:23,080
I like for me my ideal world quote and quote I wish that you know fire departments will

1145
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:28,800
have their own behavioral and wellness department within a department right they should create

1146
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:36,320
a team of behavioral and wellness and instead of playing triage why don't we play preventative

1147
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:44,080
measures put programs in place for these first responders or you know firefighters EMS guys

1148
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:52,360
and like have them go attend a workshop have them attend some kind of I guess like retreat

1149
01:12:52,360 --> 01:13:00,040
anything something where you know how to deal with stress that you can debrief after a tragic

1150
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:05,720
fall or even if it's not really tragic if it just triggered you in some capacity there

1151
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:13,800
should be like a number or maybe just a safe space or a person within that department or

1152
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:19,240
in that little team that you can go to and that's completely confidential and private

1153
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:24,880
and you can just speak to that person or a team or if it's like a two team or whatever

1154
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:30,000
is speak to them about it and not have to worry about stigma and not have to worry about

1155
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:35,840
oh my gosh if someone in admin finds out about this I might lose my job or they're going

1156
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:43,000
to count that against me so I think they need to create that kind of I guess I don't know

1157
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:48,960
if it's a department but something like that does that make sense no it does it doesn't

1158
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:56,200
it's it's good that in your area around sunrise they have the Florida firefighters safety

1159
01:13:56,200 --> 01:14:00,520
and health collaborative and that organization we started from departments you know all over

1160
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:06,000
central Florida and south Florida have created a number of initiatives they have red line

1161
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:12,800
rescue which is a kind of network of peer support from all over the I think it's certainly

1162
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:17,740
the state so for example if you're a Miami firefighter but you don't want to speak to

1163
01:14:17,740 --> 01:14:22,040
someone from your area you can you know find a firefighter in Jacksonville and talk to

1164
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:27,260
them but they've also got this initiative where they're training counselors to become

1165
01:14:27,260 --> 01:14:32,160
culturally competent so they actually go through classes they do ride-alongs they start to

1166
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:36,720
understand what our shift work looks like you know how we talk you know all these kind

1167
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:41,120
of things that then will make a responder comfortable when they walk in and they already

1168
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:46,400
know you know what they do for a living so I think you know that's what's encouraging

1169
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:52,100
is if you are in for example your area you have an incredible resource you know right

1170
01:14:52,100 --> 01:14:56,480
next to you and this is a group that's being you know questioned by people all over the

1171
01:14:56,480 --> 01:15:00,800
country because they're doing so well so you know I hope if they haven't already that that

1172
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,520
you know sunrise and neighboring departments will reach out to those guys because you don't

1173
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:09,000
have to reinvent the wheel they've got it figured out and if you're in a Davey and some

1174
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,280
of these smaller cities they may not have the capacity to have an entire mental health

1175
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:18,360
branch so then you form a coalition and let's say you know three cities get together and

1176
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:22,680
one of them they all chip in and they create one for the three cities when I worked in

1177
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:27,800
Anaheim we have what's called North Net and it was Anaheim city of Orange Fullerton a

1178
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:31,480
couple of others and we trained together and we did a whole bunch of things together well

1179
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:36,240
that's the same with this you know if you're not big enough then share mental health resources

1180
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:41,520
but make a change make it happen because the biggest thing that I see is the barrier to

1181
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:48,360
entry the most courageous thing a first responder can do is say I need help but the question

1182
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:54,240
is have you created a road from I need help to actually getting help and not just any

1183
01:15:54,240 --> 01:16:00,000
help getting the right help not the EAP Russian roulette that I hear of so often yeah I hear

1184
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:07,480
that the peer support the EAP it's like being scuffed upon or you know look down on because

1185
01:16:07,480 --> 01:16:14,720
it's they're like it's a joke from what I hear so yeah obviously that's not working

1186
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:19,600
so what you're saying sounds like a brilliant idea and I do think that yeah if it's too

1187
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:24,760
expensive for one city for one department to do that why not form a coalition and you

1188
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:31,600
know get that set up get that started because it is okay to not be okay and this job is

1189
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,480
really really tough on your mental health you've got to have the right support and you

1190
01:16:35,480 --> 01:16:41,200
shouldn't be stigmatized or penalized for asking for help or you know going through

1191
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:48,280
the process of getting help because you want to serve other people as well not or being

1192
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:53,560
forced to retire or resign or you know leave the department because you're having a mental

1193
01:16:53,560 --> 01:17:00,640
health crisis it should be protected until such time when okay this person really they're

1194
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,960
done and they don't want to do it or whatever then that's fine but if they're going through

1195
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:11,400
it if they are in the midst of a crisis please let's not discard them they're not dispensable

1196
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:16,440
because we are dealing with someone's life here and how it can affect them eventually

1197
01:17:16,440 --> 01:17:22,080
down the road one thing I've said a lot recently you know if you hired someone and they stepped

1198
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:25,320
through the net especially at the moment with the recruiting crisis that we have and they

1199
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:30,600
were terrible from day one and now they're terrible in year two that's a different conversation

1200
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:34,800
but if you had someone like Frank and so many of these others that you ask them what were

1201
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:38,640
you like in their first year oh they were amazing they were always laughing and joking

1202
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:44,120
they would cook they would and then you can compare that to now well that's what's happened

1203
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:49,080
to them how come we got here and you know like you said if Sunrise was well staffed

1204
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,800
then you know that's phenomenal and I don't know if do they have Kelly days in Sunrise

1205
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:58,520
yeah yeah so you're 48 hour work week so that's still room for improvement I would love to

1206
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:04,800
see the entire nation do a 24 72 as a standard so we can get more rest and recovery and time

1207
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:10,200
home for our responders but also we've got to have that compassionate eye is you know

1208
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:16,680
when you see and do what we do it is going to take a piece of us I mean how can it not

1209
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:21,440
so the best thing that we can do is try and offset that with the rest recovery you know

1210
01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:27,600
the mental health support removing the barriers to entry so that we can you know not just

1211
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:32,240
get them when they're they're broken but keep kind of you know putting them back together

1212
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:35,360
again when they just get chipped a little bit you know the maintenance rather than the

1213
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:41,640
crisis but more often than not and it's such a contrast to the military the military system

1214
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:45,400
is not perfect and I've heard many horror stories but at least they have a health care

1215
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:51,640
system that takes care of them during and after they retire as you mentioned you're

1216
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:55,800
a first responder the moment you retire you have Cobra which basically no one can afford

1217
01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,840
for a year and then nothing so 30 years of wear and tear and emotional trauma and then

1218
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:06,800
you just kind of chucked out the bag so we as a profession have to advocate for not only

1219
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:12,740
our own health but the health of our family because how we are then obviously directly

1220
01:19:12,740 --> 01:19:19,880
impacts the people that we love absolutely I totally agree I just hope that you know

1221
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:25,080
basing off what happened to Frank that a lot more changes are being put upon like you know

1222
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:33,400
and it just I just don't want the same thing to happen to anyone at all and that at the

1223
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:38,960
end of the day there's still a human being and you know there's a lot more than what

1224
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:44,880
you see in the front and that like I said I understand where everyone was coming from

1225
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:50,080
but it could have been dealt better yeah one again like we said at the beginning this is

1226
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:54,640
the beautiful opportunity now rather than just shrugging our shoulders and go oh well

1227
01:19:54,640 --> 01:20:00,320
which I see a lot not saying that was the case in here particularly but or you can go

1228
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:05,440
that was horrendous we can't bring that person back but we can sure as hell learn from it

1229
01:20:05,440 --> 01:20:09,760
and make sure it doesn't happen again or at least should I say reduce the chances of it

1230
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:14,880
happening again of course you can't save everyone but try and save as many as you can and I

1231
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:20,880
do think the department his department has put some parameters in place into you know

1232
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:26,640
making sure that they don't make the same mistake that they did with Frank and you know

1233
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:35,160
they're honoring him as well we did the kegan's climb on March 29 of 2024 and it was such

1234
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:40,600
I was so humbled and grateful for the outpouring of support because it was a last minute event

1235
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:47,800
and the amount of people that showed up you know to support us to memorialize Frank Captain

1236
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:54,600
Frank Keegan was so humbling it was amazing so we're hoping that next year we're going

1237
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,880
to get the word out and that these departments other departments will come and join us and

1238
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:03,800
really you know put it in the limelight put it in the forefront right there about mental

1239
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:08,920
health amongst the first responders and tell everyone it's okay to not be okay that there's

1240
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:14,680
resources and that let's do better let's find more things or put together more programs

1241
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:20,360
for these first responders right and keep exploring different options and how we can

1242
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:27,720
help them and reduce the risk of suicide reduce the risk of our first responders feeling discarded

1243
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:35,720
after a mental health crisis absolutely well I want to end on you know a high note talk

1244
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:42,680
to me about what Kayla and Frankie are doing now well Kayla is graduating from FSU this

1245
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:48,400
summer with a bachelor's in psychology and a minor in criminology she's applying to be

1246
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:53,480
a licensed mental health counselor so she's trying to get her master's degree in that

1247
01:21:53,480 --> 01:22:00,720
at FIU keeping our fingers crossed and Frankie is actually a fire explorer for the city of

1248
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:09,240
sunrise so he's um let's just say he's dabbling on that idea of possibly perhaps you know

1249
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:16,760
going towards the path of the fire department and maybe perhaps just like his father but

1250
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:25,320
I mean he's only 16 he'll be 17 you know whatever he wants to do I fully support it as long

1251
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:30,000
as he's passionate about it and he's going to be a good person and he does well he's

1252
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:37,320
a productive member of the society I'm all for it but it's it's amazing to see him you

1253
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:42,280
know take that up because I do believe that after Frank passed away or even when Frank

1254
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:48,960
was going through the crisis he did have a different opinion when it came to the brotherhood

1255
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:53,440
of the fire department he felt that you know his dad was abandoned and betrayed by his

1256
01:22:53,440 --> 01:22:59,240
brothers and sisters and that they were not there for him and his perspective did change

1257
01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:06,280
after the memorial climb a month ago and right after the climb he became interested he saw

1258
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:12,520
how everyone pulled through in a matter of less than a week to be there for his dad and

1259
01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:19,160
that's when he started the fire explorer program immediately beautiful well that underlines

1260
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:23,700
one point that I'll kind of close with you know they say that we're you know very good

1261
01:23:23,700 --> 01:23:28,080
at burying our own we're just not good at preventing the deaths and you know people

1262
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:32,000
say that the brotherhood and sisterhood is dead I disagree you know you go to memorial

1263
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,960
events like that and you see it you go to the three four three hero challenge that I

1264
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:40,680
do in in Florida every year you'll see that as well but I think the shift has to be made

1265
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:45,040
that we've got to put that same camaraderie in the prevention side in advocating for the

1266
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,760
work week that actually is healthy for us for staffing so that you don't get mandatory

1267
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:54,640
and kept from your family again for you know the resources as you said to be in-house or

1268
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:59,760
at least completely accessible so that when people need it they can go it's not you know

1269
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:04,160
because the peer support is basically just friends checking on friends that's fantastic

1270
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:08,840
but they're really just the gateway to the actual therapy that you need as well so I

1271
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:13,800
think you know seeing that camaraderie seeing Frankie's faith restored in the fire service

1272
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:18,940
is beautiful but now we have to do it so the Frankies of you know the next generation that

1273
01:24:18,940 --> 01:24:24,200
joins the fire service that we create a different fire service that allows him to thrive rather

1274
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:30,520
than decay absolutely and that's what I'm hoping for you know moving forward now let's

1275
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:38,400
create this path let's create some kind of momentum of destigmatizing mental health in

1276
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:42,840
the first responder community we need to speak more about it's very uncomfortable for people

1277
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:47,080
to talk about it because it feels like oh such a heavy burden or it's such a loaded

1278
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:52,640
burden that you're weak because you're struggling with your mental health right now everyone

1279
01:24:52,640 --> 01:25:00,400
struggles it's just the more we push it down the worse it gets but if there are resources

1280
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:06,440
and if you see people reaching out for help then it becomes okay because we're talking

1281
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:11,240
more about it becomes some long lines and I do hope that you know the fire department

1282
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:18,360
and police departments I hope that they make it more as a normal thing to go get help get

1283
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:23,560
resources and just talk about mental health in general is just like anything else like

1284
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:29,800
high blood pressure absolutely well I'm sure that you know there are a lot of people listening

1285
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:33,160
that have the move I'm sure there's a lot of people that work with Frank that probably

1286
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:38,160
you know have enjoyed hearing some of the kind of you know the the reminiscent memories

1287
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:42,520
that you talked about if people want to reach out to you where are the best places to find

1288
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:48,760
you online so we my daughter and I are starting we're gonna put together and we're gonna start

1289
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:54,840
a non-profit organization called Kagan's Climb so she had started a Facebook page and an

1290
01:25:54,840 --> 01:26:01,800
Instagram page and they can reach me there or they can also email us over there as well

1291
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:09,040
direct message I can also they can also reach me on my email which is vessel to zero zero

1292
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:14,600
one at gmail.com if they want to reach out to me and talk more and explore other options

1293
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:21,160
and how we can go about just spreading awareness I think that's the most important thing for

1294
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:29,800
me is to spread awareness and you know de-stigmatize suicide and mental illness and mental health

1295
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,480
absolutely well Bethel I want to thank you so much and as I always say you know when

1296
01:26:33,480 --> 01:26:37,200
when people are revisiting traumas like this I know that it's kind of you know pulling

1297
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:43,840
the scab off the wound a little bit but there is also so much good that comes from hearing

1298
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:48,500
a story like this especially when it's so raw I mean you're talking two years ago so

1299
01:26:48,500 --> 01:26:52,880
I want to thank you not only for your courageous vulnerability but for also being so generous

1300
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:57,760
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast to tell Frank's story thank

1301
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:04,480
you so much James and what you're doing if you're opening doors or actually ears eyes

1302
01:27:04,480 --> 01:27:09,440
whatever you want to call it for everyone you know to hear all these different stories

1303
01:27:09,440 --> 01:27:15,840
from different people right and we're so well I appreciate it and thank you I'm so humbled

1304
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:20,880
to be a part of this show and like I said this is a brand new chapter for me I've never

1305
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:27,080
been on a podcast I was never the type to be like speaking in front of other people

1306
01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:33,080
and making speeches and stuff and now it seems like this is the path where I'm starting to

1307
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:40,200
go and travel and I'm hoping that you know through this platform that I can reach other

1308
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:46,000
people as well and help other people and you know they need anything like any help at all

1309
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:51,640
if they want someone to talk to that there's resources available and never ever feel embarrassed

1310
01:27:51,640 --> 01:28:11,200
or ashamed that they're struggling.