1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,220
I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast

2
00:00:04,220 --> 00:00:06,540
that is Transcend.

3
00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:10,560
Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did

4
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,520
for 14 years.

5
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:18,840
Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,

6
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,540
hair loss, etc.

7
00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:23,800
Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have

8
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,220
seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely

9
00:00:28,220 --> 00:00:32,920
incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left,

10
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,560
right and center.

11
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,120
So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology

12
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,320
and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down

13
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:46,460
my throat.

14
00:00:46,460 --> 00:00:50,780
Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason

15
00:00:50,780 --> 00:00:56,800
why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.

16
00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,820
They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first

17
00:01:00,820 --> 00:01:05,440
responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.

18
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,000
So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood

19
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,720
drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they

20
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,140
guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.

21
00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:23,640
In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been

22
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,800
very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.

23
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,320
So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology

24
00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,760
knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.

25
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,680
Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies

26
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,080
they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.

27
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,520
So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,

28
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,360
but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.

29
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,680
So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that

30
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,360
you can't come back from.

31
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:07,760
So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely

32
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,880
one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.

33
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:17,800
So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the

34
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,320
Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.

35
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:28,120
This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

36
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,540
I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and I've used their products ever since.

37
00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:39,520
From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

38
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,960
responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've

39
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,960
worked for.

40
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,520
Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they

41
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,760
are also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance

42
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:57,760
project.

43
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,880
We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier.

44
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,880
I ended up buying real ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been

45
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,720
my ride or die through Murph the last few years as well.

46
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,660
One area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous sponsorship spots is their brick

47
00:03:14,660 --> 00:03:16,500
and mortar element.

48
00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:21,200
They were predominantly an online company up till more recently but now they are approaching

49
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,940
100 stores all over the US.

50
00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:29,000
My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts

51
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,260
you see online are applied also in the stores.

52
00:03:32,260 --> 00:03:38,880
So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every purchase that you make but I do

53
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,960
want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount especially around

54
00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,560
holiday times.

55
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:55,520
But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order or in the stores every

56
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,380
time you make a purchase.

57
00:03:57,380 --> 00:04:02,680
And if you want to hear more about 511, who they stand for and who works with them, listen

58
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:10,920
to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with 511 regional director Will Ayers.

59
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,340
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week

60
00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:21,000
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show 3 Para legend and Falklands War veteran

61
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,840
Mick Southall.

62
00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:27,400
Now in this conversation we discuss a host of topics from him enlisting in the British

63
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:35,240
Army at the age of 16, the Junior Para program, entering depot, finding himself at war with

64
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,880
the Argentinians on the frigid Falkland Islands, the courage he witnessed with his own eyes,

65
00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:48,520
his homecoming story, mental health, Northern Ireland, his journey into EMS and so much

66
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:49,520
more.

67
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,640
Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week please just take a moment,

68
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,940
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

69
00:04:59,940 --> 00:05:01,880
leave a rating.

70
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:07,080
Every single 5 star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for

71
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:14,920
others to find and this is a free library of well over 900 episodes now so all I ask

72
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,800
in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so I can get them to

73
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,240
every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

74
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,720
So with that being said I introduce to you Mick Southall.

75
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:50,560
Enjoy.

76
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,000
Well Mick I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time, your afternoon

77
00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,200
in England, mine here in Florida in my morning and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast

78
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,200
today.

79
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,160
No problem at all thanks for inviting me.

80
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,520
So where exactly in the UK are we finding you today?

81
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:14,360
I live in Chester, it's in Cheshire, I'm in a triangle, I'm sort of just between Manchester

82
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,360
and Liverpool.

83
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,360
Brilliant.

84
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,440
Well I want to start at the very beginning of your timeline so tell me where you were

85
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:26,040
born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

86
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:32,880
Okay I was born just there, about 500 yards from where I am now, I was born in a house

87
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,520
in Chester in 1964.

88
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,520
I have two sisters Debbie and Anne.

89
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:46,520
My father was a train driver, my mother used to work in care homes and did a variety of

90
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:47,520
jobs.

91
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:53,040
My father left when I was quite young so I was brought up as a single parent family on

92
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,920
what we would call these days a social housing but I still call it a council estate in Chester

93
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,400
called Blayken.

94
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,080
Now what do you remember about your dad and the train driving?

95
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,040
Because I would imagine as a young boy, I mean being a firefighter obviously you get

96
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,240
a lot of kids come to the fire station.

97
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,280
Train driver I think is another one of those things when you're little that you kind of

98
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:13,280
revered.

99
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,400
So did you ever get a chance to actually go on the train with him?

100
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,840
Yeah, yeah I went to work with him a couple of times, it's obviously hazy because I was

101
00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,000
about nine when he left.

102
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,360
So yeah it's a little bit hazy but I can't remember going to work with him, you know

103
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:34,480
little events but yeah I was never drawn towards the train, no, not as a job.

104
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,720
Alright and then what about your mum and the care homes, the healing element, the kindness

105
00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,000
and compassion, what do you remember about that and the caring part of her profession?

106
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,880
Yeah, my mum used to work in what's called Florence Grogan home, it's just about again

107
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:54,280
about a mile from here and she worked as a carer, she also did other jobs like a cleaner.

108
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,080
I would say by today's standards she wasn't very academically qualified so she would do

109
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,200
any work that came her way.

110
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,200
So she was sometimes a cleaner, sometimes she would work in the care home, you know

111
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,440
whatever came her way to make money.

112
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:14,200
Obviously it was difficult when my father left to have three children to look after.

113
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,400
Absolutely.

114
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,960
What about sports and exercise, you ended up doing a very physical profession, what

115
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,240
were you doing when you were in the school age?

116
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:28,520
I was always into sports, football, cricket, mainly football, I loved my football, soccer

117
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,240
as you would call it over there Sully.

118
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,560
In the high school, that was in my junior school, I did all the other stuff that anybody

119
00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:41,880
would do like you know the sports days, but I wasn't in any sports club so to speak apart

120
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,720
from a local sort of five-a-side club that was run by a couple of guys, you know get

121
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,760
the young boys playing football, get them off the streets and that kind of thing.

122
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:56,000
But I was never in any sort of organised sports club so to speak.

123
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,920
And what about career aspirations, when you were at the same kind of junior, senior school,

124
00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,160
what were you dreaming of becoming back then?

125
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,640
Well most of my life I was kind of obsessed with being a soldier, I just wanted to be

126
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,760
a soldier, from as young as I can remember.

127
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,240
I really can, from films like the old ones like The Longest Day into Hell and Back with

128
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,160
Audie Murphy and all those kind of films.

129
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,760
Right up to when I went to the cinema in 1977 so to speak, I'd seen A Prisoner Too Far and

130
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,480
that was it, that was me.

131
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,160
I knew what I wanted to be from the age of say 13.

132
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,280
Now what kind of actual conflicts had you been aware of though, was there much on television

133
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,600
as far as the British military?

134
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,840
I can remember World War, sorry I can remember TV about World War Two, a great documentary

135
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,360
series called World at War that was narrated by Laurence Olivier.

136
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:51,440
That got me interested in history, I was always interested in my history anyway.

137
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:59,920
But I can remember the Vietnam War, I can remember the Civil War in Angola, I can remember

138
00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:05,600
the war between Israel and Egypt, I think it was the Six Day War, I might have that

139
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,760
slightly mistaken, but I can remember the war between Israel and Egypt, I can remember

140
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,100
various conflicts around the world.

141
00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:19,560
When you look back now, the reason I'm about to ask is a lot of us in uniform, when there's

142
00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:25,920
any sort of emotional struggles or challenges, a lot of people go, oh it's because you're

143
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,320
in the Falklands.

144
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,600
When actually now I realize, almost a thousand interviews later, that so many people, there's

145
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,080
elements of their upbringing that also contribute to maybe struggling when you're in uniform,

146
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,360
it wasn't just the Gulf War, the Grenfell fire, whatever the thing is.

147
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,760
When you look back now, obviously council estates are known to be rough sometimes, and

148
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,720
as you mentioned about single parent upbringing, were there any elements when you look back

149
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:57,200
now that maybe even contributed to pursuing the military or contributed to maybe any kind

150
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,080
of challenges later in life?

151
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:05,760
I wouldn't say being a part of a single parent family contributes to me joining the forces,

152
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,920
because I wanted to be one for as long as I could remember, so maybe I wanted to be

153
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,160
one for even when my dad was there.

154
00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,760
The second part of the question was again, sorry, excuse me.

155
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,320
That's okay, so when we look back, even sometimes when you've got people that have struggled

156
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,000
in uniform, there's that myopic focus of, oh you were in this conflict, but a lot of

157
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,000
times when I hear these stories, actually it was earlier in life that was a big part

158
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,920
of why they struggled later in life.

159
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:40,880
I suppose I had quite an aggressive stepfather, so he was quite aggressive, especially when

160
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,120
he had alcohol, I believe he had an alcohol issue.

161
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:50,920
So when he had a drink, he could be quite violent towards me and my sisters and my mother,

162
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:56,520
but I'm not entirely sure if that's got any influence or any bearing on any issues I might

163
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,720
have had later on in life.

164
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,120
I suppose you could say because my father left and my stepfather wasn't very nice, that's

165
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:05,120
why I didn't have children.

166
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,120
Right, you didn't have children you said?

167
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,440
No, I didn't know.

168
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,920
I've not got children.

169
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,600
Because another thing, when you listen to people that go into uniform, whether it's

170
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,760
military, police, fire, there's an element also of wanting to be the protector and a

171
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,960
lot of times they felt victimized when they were younger.

172
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,880
And it's a positive impact to that.

173
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,120
You want to be the change, you want the buck to stop there and you're the part of the solution.

174
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,120
So it's always interesting.

175
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,640
Yeah, that's why I didn't have children because I wanted to stop the cycle because I'd only

176
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,520
seen bad fathers and I'd seen no need to continue it.

177
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,560
Now prior to entering the military, as you mentioned, your dad left when you were nine

178
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,960
and then you had this stepfather that obviously wasn't perfect.

179
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,840
Were there any other mentors in your life in the kind of school ages before you went

180
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:52,840
to the military?

181
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,520
Yeah, there was a PE teacher at Catholic High, my middle school.

182
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,480
He was a national serviceman, so he would have been conscripted in the 50s.

183
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:08,320
He knew that I wanted to be in the army on a number of lots of occasions.

184
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,040
When he found out that I wanted to be in the forces and I wanted to join the powers, he

185
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,560
used to take me running at lunchtime, he used to try and get me fit.

186
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:22,280
So by the time I arrived, I had at least a base level of fitness to work on.

187
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,080
He stopped me in the cross-country team just to get me running, to get my fitness up.

188
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,680
He was a big influence, not a big influence, but he was definitely an influence on me,

189
00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:31,680
Mr Dempsey.

190
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:32,680
He helped me a lot.

191
00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:33,680
Brilliant.

192
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:38,840
I'll always tell you, Mr Wichard, my PE teacher in school, was an inspiration.

193
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,760
We'd go cross-country and all that other stuff and it wasn't extra at lunchtime, but it was

194
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,400
in the actual sports because I always felt I was a bit shit academically.

195
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,720
It was the one area that I felt that I was somewhat good at.

196
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,480
I wasn't great at football, but it's amazing how just those moments – and he probably

197
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,640
was unaware at the time, but we're still connected on Facebook to this day – it's

198
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,920
amazing how some of these teachers, male, female, whatever it is, it might just be a

199
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,040
moment of compassion or just taking the time to do a little bit extra with the child that

200
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,800
years later pays dividends.

201
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:10,800
Oh, of course.

202
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:11,800
Yeah, yeah.

203
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,320
I doubt if he – I don't know if he's still alive, but I doubt it, but I suppose you never

204
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,320
really realised how much of an influence or impact that he had on me just by doing those

205
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:27,680
little things like making me run cross-country, which I suppose at the time I didn't really

206
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,800
appreciate, but when I got to the depot I did.

207
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,000
Well let's talk about that then.

208
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,320
So for a lot of people listening, if they're here in the US, they graduate at 18, back

209
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,360
home we graduate at 16.

210
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:46,720
So walk me through graduating school and then your journey into the military at only 16

211
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:47,720
years old.

212
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,120
Well if I'm honest, we didn't graduate school, we just left.

213
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,520
We just left.

214
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,520
Nobody cared.

215
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,520
Did you take O-levels back then?

216
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:57,520
Is that what it was?

217
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,120
No, I took CSEs, yeah.

218
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,600
Yeah, so did you actually take those?

219
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,600
Because I said the same thing, like we didn't have any sort of ceremony.

220
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800
You took your exams and then school was just done.

221
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:12,160
To be perfectly honest, I don't think I ever officially left school, I just stopped going.

222
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,160
And no one seemed bothered.

223
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,160
Very nice of a problem.

224
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,520
In those days the teachers, I will say that some of the teachers in our school were nothing

225
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:26,560
short of bullies, they weren't educators, they were just dogs and I don't have a lot

226
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,360
of time for any of them.

227
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,120
If they're still alive then that's up to them, but I have very little time for my teachers,

228
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,200
any of my teachers, apart from Mr. Dempsey and maybe one or two others.

229
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,840
The rest of them were just dogs who had absolutely no interest in the children they were educating.

230
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,880
Yeah, mine was a mixed bag definitely.

231
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,480
It's funny, on a group chat a while ago now, I mentioned one of my previous teachers.

232
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,920
I thought it was just me, but then there was a stream of other fellow pupils that were

233
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,760
like, yeah, he was an absolute sociopath.

234
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,960
So a dangerous place to put an adult when you're amongst children.

235
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:08,680
I would say 95% of the teachers that I had in my Catholic high school, no way would they

236
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,720
be allowed to teach today.

237
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,920
Not to children.

238
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:18,600
Yeah, ironically I went to a private junior school, state school as a senior school, and

239
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,560
it was the junior school that I saw the real cruelty, ironically, one where they paid more

240
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:23,560
money to actually go to.

241
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,600
But my middle school, I'm still in touch with some of my teachers from my middle school,

242
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,520
I would just do the complete opposite if you don't mind me saying.

243
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:35,080
I would say that my middle school teachers, Mr. Poole and Miss Hart and people like that,

244
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,080
were much better to me.

245
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,520
But when I got to the high school, then I seen real, nothing short of brutality, I don't

246
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,960
care what anyone says.

247
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,380
So with that then, you walked me through not showing up at school anymore and then how

248
00:16:47,380 --> 00:16:50,280
you ended up enlisting with the British Army.

249
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:56,360
Well I went to join the army in 1979 because you could guarantee your vacancy then at 15

250
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:57,360
to go in at 16.

251
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,280
Now that might seem a little bit strange by today's age-restricting standards, but that's

252
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:03,280
what you could do.

253
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:08,720
You could go to 15, go through all the process, guarantee your vacancy.

254
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:15,960
And I got my vacancy guaranteed in around March 1980 to join the depot, what we would

255
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,820
call a depot of the Power Street Regiment on September the 9th, 1980.

256
00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:25,760
So between March and August, September 1980, I wasn't really interested in school, they

257
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,240
weren't interested in me.

258
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,320
So I'd already had my vacancy to get in.

259
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,400
You go to the local careers office, you get talked to by people who've been in the forces

260
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,320
and you tell them what you want to do and they tell you if you can do this, if you can

261
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,320
do that.

262
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,640
Then you go to what's called a reception centre.

263
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:49,560
I went to Harrogate and you get some more lectures, some more leaflets about different

264
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,320
units within the army, what you want to do.

265
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,960
I'd already had my mind made up, I knew what I wanted to join and even though a couple

266
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,160
of people tried to dissuade me from joining the Power Street Regiment, they were never

267
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,160
going to.

268
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:11,240
And when I finally got my vacancy, I went in on September the 9th, 1980.

269
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,800
So I was the second smallest kid in my whole school year.

270
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,160
Wasn't the smallest, it was almost worse.

271
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,880
It wasn't even the best at being the smallest, I was the second smallest.

272
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:21,880
But it took me a long time.

273
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,200
I had literally genuinely had my growth spurt at 18 years old, 18, so I was tiny for so

274
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,200
long.

275
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:34,760
Walk me through your physical size at 16 and then let's talk about the baby power, that

276
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,160
kind of hoarding pattern that you were in.

277
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600
There were many of us that were obviously not fully developed at 16.

278
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,040
Some of the guys were because they were big tall.

279
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,680
A lot of us were underdeveloped.

280
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:54,160
I probably weighed about maybe seven or eight stone at 16 years of age going in.

281
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,760
It was quite daunting because there was no difference made between us and adults.

282
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,960
We were just told, you're just a small adult, get on with it.

283
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,360
There was no, not like there is today, there was no consideration made for our lack of

284
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:08,880
physical development.

285
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,240
So I was about seven or eight stone, about five foot three, five foot four.

286
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,760
And I suppose if you looked at the pictures, if I said to somebody, I'm going in the power,

287
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,880
they would have looked at me and said, what else?

288
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:23,880
Wait.

289
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,720
There was nothing of me, to be perfectly honest.

290
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:33,520
So what was that kind of on ramp like for you specifically at 16 years old?

291
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,560
You've obviously got all the adult kit that you've got to move around.

292
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:37,560
It's the same with the fire service.

293
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,880
I mean, the ladder is not going to get lighter because you're 16.

294
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,740
It is what it is.

295
00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:46,120
What did that kind of journey to actually being a paratrooper look like for you at 16

296
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,120
years old?

297
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:53,400
When I joined at 16, I joined under Lieutenant Neil Young and Sergeant Ozzie Howes with three

298
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,200
junior NCOs, corporals.

299
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,200
And you joined in between.

300
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:03,520
And in those days, what we did then was you did about a year of as a junior soldier.

301
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,960
In the junior, they also carried on your education.

302
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,800
I actually got more qualifications while I was in the junior army than I got when I was

303
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:16,360
in school because the people in the junior army were educators rather than folks.

304
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,040
So I learned a lot through them.

305
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,640
And I actually got more qualifications through the army education system than I did in civilian.

306
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,480
So there was a mixture of adventure training, sport, obviously very, very intense military

307
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:29,640
training.

308
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,560
So even at 16, you were still allowed to fire live weapons.

309
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,560
And you had to be proficient on all of those.

310
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,520
You carried out exactly the same weapon handling training, weapon safety test as an adult would

311
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,520
carry out.

312
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,520
Absolutely.

313
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,320
On all the same weapons, rifle, general purpose machine gun, et cetera.

314
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:49,600
And you were built up.

315
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,640
In fairness, the PT program built you up.

316
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,800
You didn't get there and you were expected to start going up and down hills carrying

317
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:56,800
55 pounds.

318
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:57,800
Not at all.

319
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,180
They did build you up.

320
00:20:59,180 --> 00:21:03,160
And you got, it was a very, very intense, because obviously being airborne forces and

321
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:08,440
we had a selection process, it was a very, very intense physical program of constant

322
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,720
testing.

323
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,040
That's what I do remember.

324
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,360
You were constantly being assessed.

325
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,160
Every PE lesson you were being assessed.

326
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,160
Okay.

327
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,480
Are you up to it?

328
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,960
Will you be able to pass the selection process?

329
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:25,200
And this is all at 16 years of age, me and another five lads in one room with all our

330
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,000
equipment living together, never known each other until we arrived, if you know what I

331
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,000
mean.

332
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,880
We were living in a room, all helping each other in a platoon of about 60 or 70 people

333
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:41,520
or 60 or 70 young guys, helping each other, trying to get through as best we can the training

334
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,400
that they put in front of us.

335
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,600
Sometimes I believe there's a thin line between bullying and character building.

336
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,680
What I would say, there was a lot of character building done because you obviously had to

337
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:58,840
be tough to be a soldier, tough to be in the infantry and tough to be a paratrooper.

338
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,800
And they made you tough.

339
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,320
Sometimes you might not have thought that that's what they were doing.

340
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,800
You may have thought at the time I was just picking on me.

341
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:11,200
They were trying to make you tough because heaven forbid you should have to do it for

342
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,200
real.

343
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:18,400
I've witnessed obviously being on the fireside, the impact of shared suffering on team building,

344
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,900
on that tribalism.

345
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:24,120
What did you witness with these young boys that you first stumbled into the barracks

346
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,600
with and then a year later, the bond that was formed?

347
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,040
Yeah, we found out very quickly and it was fostered by if somebody in the section is

348
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,760
weak or somebody in the section fails something or then it's everybody's fault.

349
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,320
It's everyone's fault.

350
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,440
No, no, you're a section, you're a team.

351
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,240
If you like them or dislike them, I didn't dislike anyone in my section if I'm honest.

352
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,440
If you like, that's got nothing to do with it.

353
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,000
You help each other.

354
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,800
So when you see somebody struggling, you don't stand there.

355
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,360
If somebody's struggling putting their kit on or struggling ironing their kit or for some

356
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,760
reason I was quite good at ironing, so I would iron people's kit because they weren't as

357
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,760
good at it as I was.

358
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:08,800
And other stuff, you know, you worked as a team and if anybody fell back or failed, it's

359
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,040
because he's been let down by the guys in his room, not just perhaps his own personal

360
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,040
qualities.

361
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:19,680
He's been let down by his guys and that's what the fostering the team spirit was really

362
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,880
important from the start.

363
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,840
I think that's a lesson that needs to be relearned in a lot of the countries at the moment.

364
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:32,920
We're so fortunate and so comfortable in our day to day lives that it takes a village mentality

365
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,640
has kind of been lost a little bit.

366
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,320
And in some areas, it's no, no, no, look at me.

367
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,680
I'm important rather than we are important collectively.

368
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:41,680
Oh yeah.

369
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:49,240
I mean, if somebody was falling back on a march or something like that, okay, the staff

370
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,520
didn't like you taking their weapon off or taking a kit off them, of course, but they

371
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,760
would expect people to go back and help them.

372
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,600
They're struggling, so help them, you know, encourage them perhaps.

373
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:08,520
So I was in a depot for 18 months because we had a very large intake of young men in

374
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,800
September.

375
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,880
By the time we got to the following September, not as many people had actually got out as

376
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,920
they thought would.

377
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,240
So we had quite a lot of guys left.

378
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800
So they split us into two groups.

379
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,360
We have numbers in our platoons.

380
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:25,120
We had two platoons at the same time.

381
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,960
One was 476 and the one behind that was obviously 477.

382
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:36,960
So a number of guys went to 476 and the rest of the guys went to 477 and we made up our

383
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:37,960
own platoon.

384
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,720
And that was the only way they could manage the amount of junior soldiers that joined

385
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,720
in September 1980.

386
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,760
That's the only way they could manage the amount that were left, which is split them

387
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,760
in two.

388
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:54,560
Then when we went from what we would call junior power to adult or recruit power training,

389
00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:00,880
477 went back to week one, day one, which I think made it quite easy for our staff because

390
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,520
they were taking us for lessons that we already knew.

391
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,880
So I think they had quite an easy, I don't think Nick Butler would appreciate that, but

392
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:12,120
he was one of my full-school couples, which I still talk to now, fantastic guy.

393
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,560
But we all knew everything.

394
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,680
So it was quite a relaxed, shall we say, because there wasn't any pressure on us to learn,

395
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,560
because we'd already learnt it.

396
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,040
But because of the numbers, they made us go back to week one, day one.

397
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:31,120
And then we did another six months adult training then, which of course included three very,

398
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,720
very key elements of selection for airborne forces or for the parachute regiment forces.

399
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:42,480
And that's basic Wales, pre-parachute selection, and what we call advanced Wales.

400
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,200
If you fail any of those three, then of course you can be back squadded to another platoon

401
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,760
because you're not deemed to be at the required standard at that stage.

402
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,200
Basic and advanced Wales, is that Snowdonia training or something?

403
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:02,440
Well, the infantry battle school at Brecon, which is in southern Wales, is actually the

404
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,760
parachute regiment battle school.

405
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,480
The parachute regiment founded it in the 50s.

406
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:13,800
So the parachute regiment always did their training in South Wales over the Brecon Beacons.

407
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,360
Basic Wales was just to confirm some basic field craft stuff.

408
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,760
Then you did what's called pre-parachute selection, which is the big physical test that everyone

409
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,160
has to pass.

410
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,600
When I did it in November 1981, it consisted of a number of tests.

411
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,040
It was milling, which I don't know if you're aware of what milling is.

412
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,400
Do you know what that is at all?

413
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,080
Please educate me.

414
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,360
Milling is one minute basically fighting your mate.

415
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,960
Okay, like what they call combatives now.

416
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,560
Yeah, well some people call it control sparring.

417
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,280
Some people call it apparently it's under control these days.

418
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,280
It still is difficult.

419
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,400
I'm not for one minute suggesting what I did was any more difficult than what the young

420
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,760
lads do these days.

421
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,000
They're still doing the same stuff.

422
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,000
They're still brilliant.

423
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,480
But yeah, it was just a case of fighting your friend in a ring with boxing gloves on for

424
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,080
a minute.

425
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,080
That was in the morning.

426
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,960
In the afternoon you would do a 10 mile march.

427
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,920
You had to complete that in one hour 40 carrying a rifle and a Bergen.

428
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,000
Weighing approximately 44 pounds.

429
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,000
Stay out overnight.

430
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,520
In the morning you had the stretcher race.

431
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,480
The stretcher weighed 175 pounds.

432
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,440
You would carry it between a team over the distance of seven and a half miles.

433
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,920
You had to do that in one hour 50.

434
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,720
Then in the afternoon, sorry after that you would do the confidence test, which is a gymnasium.

435
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:41,440
It's like an assault course but it's about 30, 40 feet up in the air to test your nerve.

436
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,840
Then after that in the afternoon you would do either the steeple chase, which is three

437
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,840
miles.

438
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,440
I started two miles in 18 minutes over a cross country steeple chase.

439
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,560
Then the assault course.

440
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:55,760
Then we also had the log race.

441
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,200
I think I remember everything there.

442
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,120
Yeah, I think so.

443
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,680
Yeah, that was pre-parachute selection where you had a number so the staff don't know who

444
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,680
you are.

445
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:06,880
You've just got a number.

446
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,960
You have to recue a certain amount of points over all the events.

447
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,440
If you get the correct amount of points, then you pass what's called pre-company or pre-parachute

448
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,440
selection.

449
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,800
That's the big test.

450
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,520
It's open to everybody in the army so anyone can do it.

451
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,080
It's called pre-parachute selection for service with Airborne Forces.

452
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,280
What about mentally though?

453
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,560
What was it that allowed you to carry on when, as you mentioned, some of the recruits tapped

454
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:32,560
out?

455
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,520
The biggest fear I had was failure.

456
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,680
That was the biggest fear I had was failure.

457
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,120
That's what kept me going.

458
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:47,000
They built it or you could call it a kind of brainwashing or conditioning that failure

459
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,600
is just simply not an option.

460
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,600
You can cry.

461
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,840
You can throw up.

462
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:51,840
You can have broken bones.

463
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,400
You can do what you like as long as you don't quit.

464
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,240
That's what we were told pretty much week one, day one.

465
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,240
Do anything.

466
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,480
If you vomit, if you throw up, if you cry, all the rest of it, don't care.

467
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,480
Just keep going.

468
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,880
My fear of failure is what kept me going.

469
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:17,240
It's interesting asking people that their career spanned a big conflict in their life.

470
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,720
For example, a lot of the guys that deployed to the Middle East, what was the training

471
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,800
focus prior to that?

472
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,840
For example, in the US, really the big conflict before that was really Vietnam, before the

473
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,960
first Gulf War.

474
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,720
Some of the training, some of the tactics ended up morphing as they stayed out there

475
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,640
in IEDs and all these horrendous things that happened.

476
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:42,760
When you look back now, what was the preparation like without even knowing that you would end

477
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,840
up on the Falkland Islands a few short months later?

478
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,240
Was it still apropos?

479
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,360
At this stage, I'm not even in a regiment yet.

480
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,160
I'm still in training at this stage.

481
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,920
After the P company, then we do the advanced worlds, which is lots of field firing, more

482
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:07,840
advanced movement with live weapons, moving up to section of platoon attacks, all live

483
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,240
to conditioners for going on to the battalion after a pass out parade.

484
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,800
It's like a graduation.

485
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,920
That happened on February the 19th.

486
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,960
Then we moved to the battalion.

487
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,400
That's where you are now considered a trained soldier.

488
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:30,440
Up until then, you are not a trained soldier until you join your unit.

489
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,080
I know some American units, they leave with medals and with ribbons and that.

490
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,760
We don't leave with anything.

491
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,500
You're not a trained soldier.

492
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:41,200
You go to your unit, then you start earning things.

493
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,120
There's nothing wrong with the American system.

494
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,600
It's not our system.

495
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,680
On February the 19th, when I joined, sorry, two weeks after that, approximately the 24th

496
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,640
of March, give or take a bit, I then joined three para.

497
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,560
That's when, even at this stage, even on the 24th of March, nobody had any idea that we

498
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,520
would be going to the focus.

499
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,720
When you reflect though, you mentioned the Brecon Beacons and some of these other areas

500
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:14,440
versus the urban warfare that some of our soldiers in Afghanistan, Iraq ended up having

501
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,320
to focus on.

502
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,120
Was the training that you guys got still somewhat comparable to what you ended up enduring on

503
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,120
the Falklands?

504
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Actually, there's an old phrase that the Waterloo was won on the plain fields of Eaton.

505
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:37,400
Well, the Falklands was won on the hills of Brecon because the Falklands and Brecon are

506
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,880
pretty much identical.

507
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,160
The terrain, the weather, the conditions.

508
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:49,920
Training in the Falklands and in that environment was no shock to Power Street Regiment soldiers

509
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:50,920
at all.

510
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:51,920
No.

511
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:57,640
So basically, the training that we did in South Wales was extremely comparable to what

512
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,680
we engaged, both two and three para engaged, during the Falklands.

513
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,800
Yeah, it was basically the same.

514
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,560
So you mentioned about passing out in February and then, you know, Falklands was April 2nd,

515
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:09,560
so walk me through that.

516
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,080
I mean, you literally are barely, you know, put your feet in the new position and then

517
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,080
war breaks out.

518
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,800
So, walk me through those weeks for you.

519
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,920
So in those sort of weeks prior to the 2nd of April, we were doing Northern Ireland training

520
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,720
because we were on what's called Spearhead.

521
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,000
Spearhead was the lead unit of the British Army at the time.

522
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,720
And it was usually deployed to Northern Ireland to support units in the province.

523
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Now ironically, I wouldn't have been allowed to go to Northern Ireland because it was an

524
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,880
internal country insurgency warfare.

525
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320
So I would have had to be in 18.

526
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,360
So I couldn't have gone there.

527
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,360
Okay.

528
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,640
But when the Falklands came up, nobody questioned our age, to be honest.

529
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,160
Nobody said, oh, can they go or not?

530
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,400
We were asked if he wanted to go.

531
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,960
But I digress slightly.

532
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,320
So the weeks before that, we were doing lots and lots of Northern Ireland training, getting

533
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:11,720
used to what we might be doing in the province.

534
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:17,160
Just doing basic, doing stuff like going to the ranges, doing PE, physical training, sorry,

535
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,160
around Tidworth.

536
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,920
And then after we'd done our Northern Ireland training, we were given a long weekend, went

537
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,920
home, we came back, and then we were supposed to be confined to camp because there was talk

538
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,040
of something going on somewhere.

539
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,120
So we were confined to camp.

540
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,760
And even though we were confined to camp, they still put signs on the train stations

541
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,720
to tell the guys to come back after what we would cut to him.

542
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,200
The balloon went up on the Friday night to say that we've all been withdrawn, we've all

543
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,320
been called back to barracks, okay, and we're going to the Falklands.

544
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:53,520
I was actually in my bed at the time when somebody came round to get me up, to go to

545
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,160
what we would call the company office and start phoning people to tell them to get back

546
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,400
into barracks because we've been put on standby to go to the Falklands.

547
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,280
I had John Geddes on the show and Philip Neame, and I'll ask you the same question I asked

548
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,680
them because I was a little boy.

549
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,520
I remember the Falkland conflict.

550
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,880
And ironically to me, at that young, young age, realizing that something can happen and

551
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,240
that initiates sending a load of our boys, in this case, to war.

552
00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:22,460
And obviously, a lot of them didn't come back.

553
00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:24,320
It really kind of opened my young eyes.

554
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,600
Oh, so a politician can basically decide if they send someone or if they don't.

555
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,160
And it kind of shifted my career path a little bit because I loved the military stuff.

556
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,400
I had all the action men and all that stuff too.

557
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:44,120
Talk to me about the invasion and then was there an opportunity for diplomacy or were

558
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,680
our hands tied and the combat side the only option?

559
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,040
Well, diplomacy was tried all the way down.

560
00:34:53,040 --> 00:35:00,720
Mr. Haig from the United States was constantly going to and from London to Buenos Aires,

561
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,320
Buenos Aires back to London.

562
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:09,880
In Mrs. Thatcher's book, she asked Mr. Haig, when you talk to the Argentines and you talk

563
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,480
to us, what is the main difference?

564
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,860
And Mr. Haig said, you're usually sober.

565
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:21,360
So how they can deal with how we are supposed to deal diplomatically with people who aren't

566
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,000
even sober.

567
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:30,960
It was very difficult for Mrs. Thatcher to get any kind of answer from General Gautieri,

568
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,680
cost amended, I believe his name was, their sort of foreign secretary.

569
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:40,040
It was very difficult to negotiate with people who had a completely ulterior motive.

570
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,480
Their motive for invading the fourth war had nothing to do with sovereignty or the island,

571
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,800
had nothing to do with that.

572
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,200
It was to distract their people from the fact that their country was going bankrupt.

573
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,280
So as a unifying factor to get the country on their side, they invaded the Falklands

574
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,360
because they thought we wouldn't do anything.

575
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,120
This is something that's such a reoccurring theme when there seems to be this kind of

576
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,520
mission under color or race or patriotism.

577
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,040
More often than not, when you reverse engineer it, it's about greed and power.

578
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:23,960
And it's so sad that even to this day that a leader with no ethics can create an environment

579
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,600
that sends their children to war.

580
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:33,040
Yeah, and that blame lies solely, and nobody will ever convince me, it lies solely with

581
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,880
General Gautieri, not Mrs. Thatcher.

582
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:38,880
Solely with that man.

583
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,820
And many people had the opportunity, when I say many people, some people had the opportunity

584
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:49,760
to shake hands with the generals in Port Stanley and they decided not to, thank you, because

585
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,560
you caused all this.

586
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,520
Lots of your young men and lots of our young men have died and you caused it.

587
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,920
So I'm not shaking your hand.

588
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,120
I don't have an issue at all with me being sent to fight for, I believe it was a very,

589
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:03,240
very noble war.

590
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:08,720
I believe it was because we had 2000 British people on the islands and all the Argentinians

591
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:10,720
would do is turn them into the disappeared.

592
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,600
I don't know if you've heard about those.

593
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,600
No.

594
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,840
They were called the disappeared in Argentina, where the military junta, any opposition,

595
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,840
they just disappeared.

596
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,840
Approximately 30,000 of them.

597
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:27,000
Now they sent their main guy to Port Stanley, okay, to sort it out and he was, I think it

598
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,040
was called the either the butcher of Buenos Aires or the death angel of Buenos Aires, something

599
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,040
like that.

600
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,640
And his solution was, what's your problem?

601
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Just kill them all.

602
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,640
No problem, just kill them all.

603
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,640
Then we haven't got a problem, then have we?

604
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,960
Okay, and that's how brutal they were.

605
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,400
That's how brutal they were.

606
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,840
And when I hear people blaming Mrs. Thatcher for the fall of the wall, okay, could she

607
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:50,840
have done anything?

608
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,440
I don't know, but I put the blame solely, solely at the feet of General Galtier.

609
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,200
Yeah, and this is why it's important to hear the voices that were actually there.

610
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,340
Whatever we're talking about, you know, there's news stations that will present their version

611
00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:07,640
or you can ask the men and women that were actually boots on the ground.

612
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:14,360
Oh, if that if it be and I mean, as I said, it was the last when I say noble, okay, I

613
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,280
mean, the Americans and British have been involved in conflicts since then.

614
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,600
I would never ever question.

615
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,240
I don't question the young men and women that are involved in them.

616
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:23,240
Okay, I don't.

617
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,520
I would never ever question them or their motives or their loyalty or patriotism.

618
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,720
But British soil had been invaded.

619
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:32,680
British people were going to be killed.

620
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,040
So I'm afraid I'm quite I would go and do it again now.

621
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,720
I would not bat an eyelid.

622
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,100
Well, let's walk through that then.

623
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,880
So as you said, the balloon goes up.

624
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:43,880
You know what?

625
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:44,880
What does that look like?

626
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:45,880
You're 17 years old.

627
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,760
You just graduated as it were.

628
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,920
What does it look like as far as from that moment to being on the ship heading south?

629
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,360
I say this all the time.

630
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,320
I just found it incredibly exciting.

631
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,240
I didn't think for one minute we were going to go through.

632
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:03,240
I just thought we're going to do a bit of Sabre rattling.

633
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:04,240
They'll do a bit of Sabre rattling.

634
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,520
Maybe we'll go round the island a few times and come home.

635
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,440
So I found it all really, really exciting.

636
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,600
I'm on a coach with motorcycle escorts down to Southampton.

637
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,400
I'm getting all this kit given to me that I've never seen before and all that sort of

638
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,400
stuff.

639
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,400
So I'm not going to lie.

640
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,400
I found it quite exciting.

641
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,320
And I didn't think and can I just say a lot of people didn't think we would actually get

642
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,320
to fighting.

643
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,520
So I found it quite quite an adventure.

644
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:29,520
I'm not going to lie.

645
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:30,520
It was an adventure.

646
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,680
You know, I was I'd never been abroad in my entire life.

647
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,320
And here I am on the third biggest cruise liner in the world with three thousand other

648
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,080
people and we're staying into war like we used to do in the old black and white films.

649
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,040
And I'm thinking surely not.

650
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,480
Yeah, here we are.

651
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,480
Did you have that thought?

652
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,880
I've heard I think both Philip and John had this that initially when they heard Falklands

653
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,500
war they thought it was somewhere around Scotland, you know, the Falklands Islands.

654
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:59,200
Did you know where that island was initially?

655
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,600
Now, this is actually quite sad because I did I did actually know where they were.

656
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,520
And that's all because of the fault of watching nature programs when I was younger.

657
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:14,440
They did a special a survival program called Survival did a special on the Forkland Island.

658
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,520
And I remember the name of the capital, Port Stanley.

659
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,080
So when he said the Forkland Island, everyone was going, where's that?

660
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,040
I think that's in the South Atlantic.

661
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,960
Wasn't the telly a few years ago.

662
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:24,960
It was.

663
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:25,960
Oh, it is down there.

664
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,080
So I was quite I did have an idea where they were.

665
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,880
But most people know they weren't in the of the nation's consciousness at all.

666
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,320
No one no one paid much attention to them.

667
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:36,680
No, no, no, no.

668
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,920
Most people didn't know where they were.

669
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,960
No, they didn't.

670
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,360
I think it was it was John, I think, that told the story that there were civilians on

671
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,840
some of these ships that volunteered to go down with you guys that were doing entertainment

672
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,040
and all that kind of thing.

673
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,040
Talk to me about that.

674
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,560
Oh, yeah, there was no to pilot.

675
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,400
I think John Geddes and Philip Neame were to para.

676
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,160
I was three part of two part of went down on an old North Sea ferry called the Norland

677
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,160
to power.

678
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,160
So excuse me, I do apologize.

679
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:12,080
Three pilot were on the camber with four to four or five commander or 40 and 42 commander

680
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,320
solid was getting mixed up.

681
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,120
No disrespect to the of our colleagues, but I was getting mixed up.

682
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,920
So we still had civilians.

683
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,360
They were building helipads as we were leaving Southampton.

684
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,760
A lot of them did volunteer, the laundry people volunteered.

685
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:32,120
OK, all the chefs, a lot of people on the camera did volunteer to stay on board now

686
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,480
on on the Norland.

687
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,520
They had a very famous guy called Wendy.

688
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:38,520
That's what they called him.

689
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:39,640
And he was a pianist.

690
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,160
And he entertained the guys every night in the bar.

691
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,160
That's what he was talking about.

692
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,160
Yeah, that's yeah.

693
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,960
Well, I didn't experience that until on the way back because that we came back on the

694
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:49,960
normal.

695
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,640
I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

696
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,040
So two and three part of work together, we were on separate vessels.

697
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,560
So you're sailing down south, kind of walk me through how the war escalates and, you

698
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,560
know, again, your, you know, your position in as far as making ground.

699
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:11,360
So on the way down, as you can imagine, polishing up on training, first aid, communication,

700
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,040
navigation, history, vehicle recognition, aircraft recognition, polishing up skills

701
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,040
on the way, working a lot on fitness.

702
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,800
I was very fortunate in the fact that I'd only just finished training, so I was really

703
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,840
fit, but we didn't have any unfit people anyway.

704
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,600
Okay, not to use my due process.

705
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,080
So we were doing all that working our way down, getting closer and closer.

706
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,280
Now on the way down, we stopped at Ascension Island.

707
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,200
I'm sure you've heard of that place where again, I would go up, I went up on a deck

708
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,080
and I would see, wow, there's there's like 100 ships around me.

709
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:46,240
Again, very, very sort of like, wow, for 17 year old.

710
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:49,600
On the way down, we did lots and lots of training.

711
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,440
When we got to Ascension Island, it was the first opportunity we got to use landing craft

712
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,440
because we were told we were going to have to land as in the old sort of D-Day beach

713
00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:59,440
landing.

714
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,680
Okay, so we had to learn how to use those.

715
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,480
You may say, oh, it can't be that difficult, you know, how to get on them, how to get off

716
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,560
them, et cetera.

717
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,520
We did a practice on Ascension Island.

718
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,040
We did a walk down to Ascension Island, then got back onto the Canberra and started making

719
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,480
our way then past Ascension Island, getting closer towards the island.

720
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,320
And this is where it started, hang on, we're getting really close here.

721
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,880
You know, is diplomacy, is Mr. Hague, you know, is Mrs. Thatcher, will, you know, Costa

722
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,520
Mendes, will Galtieri, will they get together and stop it?

723
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,320
Because we seem to be getting awful close to the Argentinians here.

724
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,800
You know, at what stage are we going to go?

725
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,040
Yeah, well, it's not for real guys, we're going home.

726
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,760
But obviously we didn't.

727
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:46,400
The big turning point for me and for a lot of people is when we heard the General Belgrano

728
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,400
had been sunk.

729
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:53,520
And obviously the next day HMS Sheffield was sunk.

730
00:43:53,520 --> 00:44:00,040
And then I would say, I personally felt a tangible change in the atmosphere.

731
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,120
Hang on, no, this is real.

732
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,600
Okay, so instead of just checking your pouch maybe once, you check it twice.

733
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:12,400
You know what I mean, you'd heighten up your skills rather than just doing something, you

734
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:13,760
would check it again.

735
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,720
Okay, and I found people in my cabin, I was here with Gasjule, if I was here with Scouts

736
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:24,560
Lloyd, Andy Stedman, and we would be constantly checking our kit, make sure it's okay, because

737
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,080
it was going to be for real.

738
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,640
When did you find yourself actually getting onto the land itself?

739
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:36,880
Okay, well we transferred from the SS Canberra onto HMS Intrepid, which is a troop landing

740
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:37,880
ship.

741
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,560
There was only two, the Intrepid and the fearless.

742
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:52,280
We transferred to the Intrepid probably on the night of the 26th or 27th of May.

743
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,760
We were fed, really well looked after by the Navy guys.

744
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:02,440
Then while we're on that vessel, we moved into San Carlos water, okay, and then after

745
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,120
being fed, sorting out the last pieces of equipment, doing things like climbing grenades

746
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,900
for instance, making sure the grenades were ready to go, all that kind of stuff.

747
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:17,680
Then we started to land from the Intrepid at approximately first light on the 28th of

748
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:18,800
May.

749
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Did you experience resistance?

750
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,280
I think it was John that was saying that they were bracing for, like you said, a Normandy

751
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:30,440
experience receiving fire when we actually got on there and there was no one there.

752
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,600
Nobody was 100% sure it would be unopposed.

753
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,880
Okay, obviously our special forces were on the ground doing their job, okay, but the

754
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,120
information they were getting, they weren't sure it would be unopposed.

755
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:47,200
There was one enemy observation post on Stilme called Fanning Head, where I believe either

756
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,880
the SBS Special Air Service, one of those group of guys, they took that out.

757
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,000
But we weren't sure whether the landing was going to be opposed until obviously the first

758
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,280
couple of landing craft got in and no one was there.

759
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,360
It was very fortunate.

760
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,000
Having looked at things like, sorry, I don't like quoting Hollywood, but looking at the

761
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,920
things like sort of saving private land, I'm very, very pleased it wasn't an opposed landing.

762
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,800
Yeah, absolutely.

763
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,360
So then what did the next few days look like?

764
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,680
As you said, going back to your training in the Brecon Beacons, you're marching a lot,

765
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,000
you're experiencing climbs, etc.

766
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,480
What was the next kind of mission for your guys?

767
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:32,680
For the first sort of seven to 10 days, we just stayed in San Carlos on the hills.

768
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,680
And this is where we were watching, for want of a better phrase, the air raids carried

769
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,880
out by the Argentinian Air Force.

770
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,640
The Argentinian Air Force were not bombing the soldiers that were digging in, as I would

771
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:43,640
call it.

772
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:44,640
They were going for the ships.

773
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,960
So they were just flying over us and bombing the ships.

774
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,480
So we were in what, and it was nicknamed then Bomb Alley because it was constant air raids.

775
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:59,080
Now while we were there, we were doing things like patrolling, etc. during the air raids,

776
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,760
you know, dominating the ground to deny the enemy the ground or movement.

777
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:10,040
And we were making plans for our helicopter assault onto the mountains around Port Stanley.

778
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,720
Now I'm not entirely sure if you're aware of this.

779
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:18,520
All the helicopters were on something called the Atlantic Conveyor, which is a very, very

780
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,920
large vessel, probably the size of an aircraft carrier.

781
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,760
And it had all the helicopters on it.

782
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,560
The Argentinians sank it.

783
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:33,840
So Brigadier Julian Thompson's plan to heli forward all his power stupas and commandos

784
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:34,840
was scuppered.

785
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,080
He had no helicopters.

786
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,760
And that's when a decision was made that four or five commando and elements and three commando

787
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,480
and supporting elements would walk.

788
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:47,640
And correct me if I'm wrong.

789
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,360
That was the decision that the Argentinians weren't expecting that you guys would actually

790
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,840
just physically walk to that place.

791
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:01,000
I don't think they thought we would be mad enough to walk.

792
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,440
I'm going to sneak a tradition.

793
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,240
Some people on our side were thinking that as well.

794
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:11,240
But yeah, four or five commando with supporting elements and three with their supporting elements,

795
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:12,360
not just power stupas.

796
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,760
We had our chefs, we had everyone with us, not just power stupas.

797
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,760
And the commando is the same.

798
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,380
They had their supporting elements of artillery, we, me, chefs.

799
00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:22,400
So it's called a battle group.

800
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,760
So although people say, oh, three pattern march, there was other guys with us.

801
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,760
And we started off.

802
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:35,000
I can't remember the date that we actually left San Carlos and started walking.

803
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,360
But it became very, very clear or very, very apparent very quickly that this was not going

804
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,640
to be a quick walk across the hills.

805
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,320
The terrain was absolutely horrendous, as were the boots that we had issued.

806
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,040
And as obviously the weather, the terrain and the elements were so against us.

807
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,040
It was unreal.

808
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,960
Yeah, because for people, listen, this is not far from Antarctica, is it?

809
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:58,960
No, no, it's not.

810
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,320
No, it's not far from Antarctica at all.

811
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,800
No, you're talking about a wind till factor at night.

812
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:11,200
I've read recently or read in books over the years that the wind till factor for ourselves

813
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,080
and four or five commando, it would get it down to about minus 20 minus 25 degrees, sometimes

814
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:22,320
even worse than that without any, without any specialist Arctic equipment.

815
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,760
We were just in a soldier would be wearing in Brecon.

816
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,080
We had no specialist equipment.

817
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:31,080
Now what about rations?

818
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,080
I mean, now, like you said, you're walking on the island.

819
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,840
What were you, you've gone from from being well fed on the ships.

820
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,800
What did it look like when you were on that march?

821
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,880
Well, we were all used to eating rations.

822
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:42,880
Absolutely.

823
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:43,880
Okay.

824
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:44,880
No problem with rations.

825
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,480
You can eat them hot or cold anyway.

826
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:52,680
But we were told to make a 24 hour ration pack last 48 hours.

827
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:53,680
Okay.

828
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,960
We eat half one day and half the next.

829
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,160
And people would be eating stuff that they wouldn't normally eat if you know what I mean.

830
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Oh, we've got this ration pack.

831
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,160
Well, I don't like that bit.

832
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:04,160
I don't like that bit.

833
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:05,160
They would eat everything.

834
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,280
And we were given Arctic rations.

835
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,360
Now Arctic rations, you might think, oh, and they were much better.

836
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,360
They were much better.

837
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:17,320
But they were called Arctic rations because you could use the snow to cook them.

838
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,360
You needed an awful lot of water to cook them.

839
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,120
But we didn't have the snow wasn't that bad.

840
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:28,400
So we would actually be making our meals with water that puddles.

841
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,880
Yeah, absolutely.

842
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,040
Water that streams and puddles to make the meals up.

843
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,040
Okay.

844
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,360
It was quite, I know my very, very good friend, Sully Eladji and other people I've spoken

845
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,360
to about it, sort of Grant Grinham, another very, very good friend of mine, Harry Harrison,

846
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,960
all those kinds of guys that I served with, they all said the same thing.

847
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,960
It was the hardest thing they've ever done.

848
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Yeah, I can imagine.

849
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:57,040
The distance was about between 70 and 90 miles.

850
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,400
And you say you had 55 on your back as well?

851
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,400
Well, I would have.

852
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,400
I would have been carrying about 80 pounds.

853
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:03,400
Yeah.

854
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,400
I mean, that reframes it completely.

855
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,560
Easily, easy about 80 pounds worth of equipment.

856
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,240
So then take me to Mount Longden.

857
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:13,240
Okay.

858
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:18,320
So as we're walking across, obviously getting in briefs during the walk across, obviously

859
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:23,880
Tupara attacked Goose Green and we found out that Tupara had a bad time and even a commanding

860
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,480
officer had been killed.

861
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,040
The Welsh Guards got hit at Bluff Curve.

862
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,800
We're getting all this information as we're walking across.

863
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,120
And then we all sort of, when I say we all, everyone sort of converged on somewhere called

864
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,200
Mount Astansia, which is approximately, or Astansia House, excuse me, which is about

865
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:45,240
10 to 12 miles from Mount Longden and the other features of Two Sisters, Mount Harriet,

866
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:51,800
Mount Kent, sorry, Mount Harriet, Sapper Hill, all of the features around Port Stanley, about

867
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,520
12 miles away from Astansia House.

868
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:59,240
And this is where we all received our orders to say exactly what we were going to be doing.

869
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:00,720
All right.

870
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:04,400
Making sure, again, making sure all equipment's ready to go.

871
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:10,920
Getting briefs from our company commander, our platoon commanders, our section commanders,

872
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,960
getting a sort of a realistic chat is what I would like to call it, a realistic chat

873
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,360
from our company sergeant major, Mr. John Weeks.

874
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,160
In the American Army, I suppose, I don't know what the equivalent would be, okay, but he's

875
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:30,560
a senior non-commissioned officer within the company and he gave us what I would call a

876
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:38,320
reality talk and he said to us, be aware, some of you will not see the morning tomorrow.

877
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,800
If you have a God, if you believe in that kind of thing, go and pray to him because

878
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,680
some of you will not see daylight tomorrow.

879
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,600
That was quite daunting for 17, 18, there was a lot of 18 year old lads, not much difference

880
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:57,040
between 17 and 18, 19, I think the average age in B Company was 21.

881
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,120
The only young lads, I think the average age was 21.

882
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,580
Somebody may be able to correct me on that.

883
00:53:02,580 --> 00:53:06,880
So we had the brief off the company sergeant major and then everyone got their equipment

884
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:13,320
together and let's go and we walked the sort of then the 10 miles or so or 10 or 12 miles

885
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,400
from Astantia to Mount London.

886
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,840
And talk to me about the fortified position that they had built on Mount London.

887
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:29,400
Okay, if you look at any of the pictures of Mount London, it looks from one end when you're

888
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,480
looking at it from where we were on the start line with the moon behind it, it looked like

889
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:38,540
a medieval castle because the lights coming through and the shape of it, it looks like

890
00:53:38,540 --> 00:53:40,160
a medieval castle.

891
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:49,360
It is almost impossible to sort of fight through it in a traditional manner because the rocks

892
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:55,320
are so close, the night and being at night as well, you could go past somebody, they

893
00:53:55,320 --> 00:54:00,480
could be behind a rock here and you would walk this side and miss them completely.

894
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,800
It was so close to fighting.

895
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:11,920
We're talking feet, not meters, we're talking feet between opposing forces, we're talking

896
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,920
feet.

897
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:21,160
Mount London is a very, very jagged rocky feature, approximately six or seven hundred

898
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,160
feet high.

899
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,360
Six or seven hundred feet high, it's not much to that then, six or seven hundred feet high

900
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,240
and approximately two, two and a half miles long.

901
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:36,480
It's a huge feature and I believe on there, there was approximately three, sorry, approximately

902
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,720
six hundred Argentines, give or take a bit.

903
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:44,280
So how were you and your men able to navigate that?

904
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:50,240
Okay, so we were on what we call a start line, it's where everyone gets there, it's a single

905
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:57,320
line, sorry to be patronizing, start line, everybody moves to the start line, lay down,

906
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,120
make sure everything is ready to go and we basically get up at the same time and it was

907
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,480
called an advance of contact.

908
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:08,360
Now how we got to where we were without the Argentinians seeing us, I have absolutely

909
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:16,120
no idea because we were literally on top of them before they even realized we were there.

910
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:23,440
They had no idea we were coming, none at all, because our commanding officer Lieutenant

911
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:29,720
Colonel Pike had decided to make it what's called a silent attack, so in other words,

912
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:35,160
most military, before they attack a position, would artillery it to soften up the enemy,

913
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:39,240
where in this case the commanding officer said no, we don't want them to know that we're

914
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:44,640
coming and that went the same for the commandos on Two Sisters, Mount Harriet, Mount William

915
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,120
and the other positions that the commandos took, okay.

916
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:54,320
It was a silent attack and the Marines and ourselves and the paratroopers, we got very,

917
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,400
very close to the enemy without them even knowing we were there.

918
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:04,000
We got within about 50 meters without them even knowing we were there and then unfortunately

919
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:09,320
a colleague of mine, Corporal Brian Mill, put on a mine, okay, and that was the first

920
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:15,880
indication that they had that we were there and of course then they opened up with everything.

921
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:22,800
Talk to me about that battle then because I know if we're taking again the kind of

922
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,560
mirror sun headlines of back in the day, you hear, oh, they were all just young farm boys,

923
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,720
but then I listen to the actual veterans and they praise, for example, the Argentinian

924
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:36,360
Air Force and their bravery.

925
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,960
There seems to be a lot of mutual respect from the Brits for the Argentinians that we're

926
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,000
fighting, so what was the kind of level of resistance that you were experiencing at that

927
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,000
point?

928
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,680
Well, considering, and I've heard this before, can I say, I've heard this before, that the

929
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,480
Argentinians were only conscripts, they were only farm boys.

930
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,720
Well, they managed to put up a pretty good fight.

931
00:56:55,720 --> 00:57:00,760
They managed to kill 24 paratroopers, so they weren't too bad.

932
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:06,020
They put up a very, very good fight and it's very disrespectful to the Argentinians.

933
00:57:06,020 --> 00:57:12,520
As I said, they believed in what they were doing as much as we did, so I'm friends with

934
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,080
the Argentine veterans, I don't mind saying that.

935
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,720
We will never agree on the islands, of course, but we can agree that there's a mutual respect,

936
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:20,920
okay?

937
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,480
And to say that they didn't fight when they were farm boys and all the rest of it, I just

938
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,000
think it's a little bit insulting to them, to be honest.

939
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:32,960
And it's not a term I'm actually comfortable with when people say I'm very quick to correct

940
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:33,960
people with that.

941
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,280
Well, it's also disrespectful to you guys because it downplays what your men had to

942
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:39,280
encounter.

943
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:46,600
I mean, to be honest, you could put a 15-year-old guy on a clock tower with a rifle, he'll hold

944
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:47,600
people up.

945
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,920
Absolutely, he'll hold an entire town up because no one wants to move, so it doesn't have to

946
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,480
be that well-planned either.

947
00:57:54,480 --> 00:58:00,360
So I wouldn't say it denigrated what we did, but I just find it a little bit insulting

948
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:05,440
to the Argentinians to say that they didn't put up a fight because they most certainly

949
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:06,440
did.

950
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,880
So the Argentinians, they did put up a fight.

951
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:16,880
Now, when it comes to tactics, I can't possibly comment about tactics because I was only a

952
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,640
17-year-old private and all I...

953
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:24,600
Not the only command, but the first command I got was run, and I did.

954
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:30,840
I ran forward as quick as I could, and I found myself on my own for about five or 10 minutes.

955
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:35,200
I was actually on my own in the rocks trying to find my unit, okay?

956
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,040
I got shot at, okay?

957
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,480
I got shouted at, I got shot at.

958
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:45,360
Eventually, I found myself back with my unit, but for about 10 minutes, I was actually on

959
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,240
my own or separated, which was quite daunting at the time.

960
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,200
It's daunting now, but it was daunting at the time, that's for sure.

961
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:54,920
How did you overcome the fear?

962
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,080
Fear is real and it's present.

963
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,040
It's not like these people that we see on television, oh, I'm fearless.

964
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,480
There's no fucking thing such as fearless, but you have to at least control your fear.

965
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:11,100
Now you're separated from your unit on a foreign island surrounded by enemy combatants.

966
00:59:11,100 --> 00:59:15,760
How were you able to stay in that calm state to navigate yourself back and not get killed?

967
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,760
I'm sorry, I'll go back to the phrase I used before.

968
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:24,280
Fear of failure, fear of letting people down, fear of letting myself down, fear of letting

969
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:25,280
my regiment down.

970
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:26,280
That's a big thing, okay?

971
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,280
Don't want to let the power of your regiment down, of course.

972
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:29,840
Okay, and that was a big thing.

973
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,560
Okay, yeah, I'm in a bit of a bit of a bit of stuck here, but there must be a way out

974
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:34,560
of it.

975
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:40,000
If I panic, if I panic, then I will either get captured or I'll get killed.

976
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,240
So I have to think, yeah, and I'm not for one minute suggesting that there wasn't a

977
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,760
moment when I went, well, hang on, right, let's just take a deep breath.

978
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,760
Right, let's go this way.

979
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,120
That sort of thing.

980
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,320
So the fear, I didn't think about it at the time.

981
00:59:54,320 --> 01:00:01,360
I didn't, I'm not going to say I wasn't scared, but the fear didn't overcome me at all.

982
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,800
I was, I kept putting it to the back of my mind and for me it worked.

983
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,240
I'm not saying it would work for everyone, but for me, that's how I dealt with it.

984
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:14,880
I put it to the back of my mind and just cracked on with what I was told to do.

985
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:20,600
So what collectively contributed to you guys taking the mountain?

986
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:26,640
Well the Argentineans described it as football hooligans coming towards them, shouting at

987
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:27,640
them.

988
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:34,080
So they said that, they sounded like football hooligans shouting at each other, communicating.

989
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,760
What helped us take the mountain?

990
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:37,760
Roar aggression.

991
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,440
Thought from week one, day one.

992
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:44,600
Roar aggression, fear of failure, fear of letting people down.

993
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:45,600
Okay.

994
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,560
For me, that's what this was.

995
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:49,360
Fear of letting people down.

996
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:50,360
Okay.

997
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:55,600
And just, there's no way in this world we were going to lose.

998
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,320
So walk me through what happened next.

999
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,000
You were successful on the mountain.

1000
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,160
What are the next few days like for you?

1001
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:02,640
We were successful on the mountain.

1002
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,080
It cost us a lot of, it cost a lot of our colleagues.

1003
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,400
It cost a lot of dead and injured.

1004
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,200
It wasn't just, it wasn't a case of, oh, now you've took the mountain.

1005
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,160
You know, sort of, sorry, no disrespect.

1006
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:15,320
Oh, you know what happened next.

1007
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,960
We do have to talk about, I do wish to talk about the fact that the cost of that mountain

1008
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:20,960
was very, very high.

1009
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:21,960
Please.

1010
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:22,960
On both sides.

1011
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:23,960
On both sides.

1012
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,200
It was very, very high.

1013
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:31,120
We were down after, not after the battle, because the battle didn't end until surrender.

1014
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,680
So when people say, oh, the battle ended on the 12th of June, well, it didn't really,

1015
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:38,680
because the artillery fired at us for the next 72 hours.

1016
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,240
So you know, because the Augustinians wanted to pin us down.

1017
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:47,280
Thankfully, somebody took those guns out and that allowed us, along with the other soldiers

1018
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:50,800
around us, to parry, fought another battle on Wireless Ridge.

1019
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,440
We had Mount Trumbull down taken.

1020
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,440
I believe it was Mount William was the last one to be taken.

1021
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:58,440
Okay.

1022
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,320
And then the British had Port Stanley surrounded.

1023
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,960
All the features around Port Stanley, looking down into the city, because it is looking

1024
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,080
down into the town or the city centre, were all dominated by the British.

1025
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,040
So the Augustinians had nowhere to go.

1026
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,880
And thankfully, thankfully, they surrendered.

1027
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:21,720
To mention the cost.

1028
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:25,280
So let's expand on that before we kind of talk about your ride home again.

1029
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,600
You know, what was the totality of that?

1030
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:32,680
The totality was 24 killed from three parry.

1031
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:38,160
Three of my friends, three of my friends, my Pursuit Sergeant who took me through training

1032
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,040
was killed.

1033
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,760
My Section Commander was injured, caught with Bailey, MM.

1034
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,480
My Section 2 IC was injured, caught with Lenny Carver.

1035
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,860
We only had one NCO left.

1036
01:02:51,860 --> 01:02:55,200
We had three guys that died who were under 18.

1037
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:56,560
Okay.

1038
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,400
They were people I joined the army with.

1039
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:00,400
Okay.

1040
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:07,600
And we had a lot of people injured, life changing injuries sustained either in the battle or

1041
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,560
during the artillery barrage.

1042
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:10,560
Okay.

1043
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:17,080
It was, it was a very, very brutal sight the morning after because obviously, as the Duke

1044
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:21,240
of Wellington said, the only thing worse than losing a battle is winning one because then

1045
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:22,760
you've got to clean up.

1046
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:27,440
So we had to clean up things like our own dead, Argentinian dead, even if it is just

1047
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,200
covering them up and, you know, for a bit of dignity and a bit of respect.

1048
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:35,720
We've got to handle all these young Argentinian soldiers who are wandering around lost and

1049
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,520
terrified because they think we're going to kill them and we're not.

1050
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,720
We're just going to take them prisoner of war.

1051
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:44,680
So we have to clear the mountain and make it safe for us to stay on there.

1052
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:49,960
And as I said, that included moving our dead, enemy dead, prisoners of war.

1053
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:50,960
Okay.

1054
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,520
So it wasn't, it wasn't just a case of, oh, the battle's ended here, lads, that's it.

1055
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:56,920
There was a lot to do afterwards.

1056
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:58,920
An awful lot.

1057
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,520
How did you and your men process that?

1058
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:07,080
I mean, such an acute event, you know, your own life almost being taken, lives of your

1059
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,840
nearest and dearest being taken, you know, surrounded by the enemy that have fallen as

1060
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:11,840
well.

1061
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,760
How does a 17 year old process it back then?

1062
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:15,760
I don't think I did.

1063
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,760
I don't think I did process it.

1064
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:24,400
I think I just put it, I just, whatever I've seen in front of me, I just, not pretended,

1065
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:31,400
but I just sort of, I cannot understand, I cannot explain that I just didn't see it as

1066
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:32,400
anything.

1067
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:33,400
I just did it routinely.

1068
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:38,520
Afterwards, perhaps I would have been a bit more reflective, but at the time I really

1069
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:39,520
wasn't.

1070
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:45,400
I was on a walk with my platoon commander, Mark Cox, and we both came across an Argentinian

1071
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:50,040
soldier whose face wasn't there.

1072
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:51,840
It was just a hole.

1073
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,920
All his face was gone.

1074
01:04:54,920 --> 01:05:00,000
And I know Mark wasn't very old, and obviously I wasn't, and I know we both sort of said,

1075
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,320
you know, we really need to cover him up.

1076
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:03,320
And we did.

1077
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:04,320
Okay.

1078
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,960
But that was, I just remember that quite closely.

1079
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:12,800
And I know Mark does, seeing that guy with his face completely blown off, no way of recognising

1080
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,200
him at all.

1081
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,040
And that was quite, what's the right word?

1082
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:19,040
It stuck with me.

1083
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:23,440
I didn't, I wasn't sick or anything like that.

1084
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:25,960
It was just something I thought, put that to the back of your mind, Mick.

1085
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,440
Got other things to do.

1086
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,280
Got other things to do, Mick.

1087
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,680
So that's how I dealt with it.

1088
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:37,520
What I found really difficult though was dealing with the death of my friends, three of my

1089
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:42,000
friends that I joined the army with, I found that very difficult to deal with.

1090
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,960
And I know other guys who were my age who helped them like I did, I wasn't the only

1091
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:52,600
one, other people were greatly affected by it, which actually stopped them, actually

1092
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:53,600
stopped them during the battle.

1093
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,760
They just couldn't go on because it affected them that bad at the time.

1094
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,680
Not a criticism in any way, shape or form, but they couldn't carry on fighting because

1095
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,440
they'd just seen their friends died.

1096
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:09,320
And myself and one other, we were very, very close to one of our friends who died.

1097
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:14,600
I was at his feet and my colleague was at his head and he died while we were trying

1098
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:19,680
to hold him and trying to make it better, but then unfortunately he just went.

1099
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,440
And it was his 18th birthday.

1100
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:27,920
And that was very moving for me and my colleague, sorry, should have said his name, Mark Isles

1101
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:28,920
Thomas.

1102
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:33,160
We were both with Neil when he died.

1103
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:39,440
I know it affected Mark a lot and it did affect me as well, without a doubt.

1104
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:45,920
Did you collectively have time to decompress when you got on the boats again and headed

1105
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,160
north back to the UK?

1106
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:51,720
Well, after that we had about a week in Stanley as well, you see.

1107
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,440
We had a week in Stanley because again, it wasn't just a case of, you know, there's

1108
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:56,440
lots to do.

1109
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:58,440
Obviously the surrender had to be taken.

1110
01:06:58,440 --> 01:06:59,440
There was like a demarcation.

1111
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,600
So, you know, a lot of cleaning up had to be done.

1112
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,880
You know, a lot of administration before we were allowed back on the boats.

1113
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:12,360
Now the decision was made that 2 and 3 Pada would go back on the Norland.

1114
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:19,160
So we travelled with 2 Pada on the Norland and 40, 42 and 45 would go back on the Canberra.

1115
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,320
Why that decision was made, I don't know.

1116
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,920
I know there's lots of rumours as to why it was made, but I've no idea why it was

1117
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:28,920
made.

1118
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:33,640
But on the way back, we didn't have any decompression as such.

1119
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:35,920
There was no organised decompression.

1120
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,600
You know, there wasn't any activity organised on the boat.

1121
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,480
You were just left to your own devices.

1122
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,320
A lot of people obviously drank a lot.

1123
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,920
I still wasn't old enough to have a beer, although I was allowed.

1124
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:52,920
So yeah, there was a lot of, I suppose, reflection on the boat.

1125
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:54,960
There was talks, there was briefs.

1126
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:56,480
People came to visit us.

1127
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:00,240
General Bramwell came to visit us on the Norland and said what a great job we've done and all

1128
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:01,240
the rest of it.

1129
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,320
And that we were going to have a Heroes Welcome when we get home and all that sort of stuff.

1130
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,000
And we were just left to our own devices.

1131
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:13,080
There wasn't any organised counselling or anything like that to help you decompress.

1132
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,400
You were just left to your own devices, which might have been a good thing, might have been

1133
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:18,400
a bad thing.

1134
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,200
I don't know.

1135
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,300
You mentioned the Heroes Welcome.

1136
01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:28,080
Talk to me about how you were initially received and then did that kind of feeling last for

1137
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,120
very long amongst the British people?

1138
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:44,680
Well, when we arrived back at RAF Price Norton, we then had to go down to Tidworth to handle

1139
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:45,680
all our kit in.

1140
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:50,720
We were given warrants to go home, travel tickets, but unfortunately there was a train

1141
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:51,720
strike on.

1142
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:52,720
Nothing new there.

1143
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,880
So we were given bus tickets and we'd missed the last bus.

1144
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:58,160
So we were stuck there.

1145
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,400
So thankfully everyone sort of clumped together and we got lifts home and I got home.

1146
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:03,880
I stayed at a pub.

1147
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,840
I stopped at a pub called the Bridge Inn.

1148
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:11,000
I went in there for just to get a Coke and to call a taxi.

1149
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,000
I went in there.

1150
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,440
Now the only clothing I had was an SS Canberra sweatshirt.

1151
01:09:14,440 --> 01:09:19,000
So I was wearing that and I was stood at the bar and I had a Coke and they came on the

1152
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:24,480
news, so it must have been about nine o'clock, came on the news about the paratroopers returning

1153
01:09:24,480 --> 01:09:27,480
and they mentioned the Canberra and this guy looked at me and said, where did you get that

1154
01:09:27,480 --> 01:09:28,480
sweatshirt from?

1155
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:30,240
And I said, well, I'm one of them.

1156
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:31,240
He went, you what?

1157
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:32,240
I said, I'm one of them.

1158
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:33,240
Oh yeah?

1159
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:34,240
I said, yeah, I just got back now.

1160
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:35,240
He said, what are you drinking?

1161
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:36,240
I said, a Coke.

1162
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:37,240
He said, do you not want a drink?

1163
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:38,240
I said, I'm not old enough.

1164
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:39,240
He didn't believe me.

1165
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:40,240
He went, you what?

1166
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:41,240
I said, I'm not old enough.

1167
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:42,240
I'm only 17.

1168
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:43,240
I'm not allowed to drink.

1169
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:44,240
He went, you must be joking.

1170
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,760
You can have a drink.

1171
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:55,800
So he got me a drink and then my taxi arrived, went home and drove up and outside the house

1172
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:56,800
was all the banners.

1173
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:03,800
There was loads of people there waiting for me and I said to the taxi driver, keep going.

1174
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:04,800
Don't stop.

1175
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,320
He went, is that for you?

1176
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:07,320
I went, yeah.

1177
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:08,320
Don't stop.

1178
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:09,320
Just keep going, mate.

1179
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:10,720
I can't be asked for that.

1180
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:12,800
I didn't want all of us.

1181
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,760
I didn't want it because for me, all the guys that we'd lost, it didn't seem anything to

1182
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:17,760
celebrate.

1183
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,240
That's what at that moment I felt that way.

1184
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,800
The taxi driver said to me, I'll never, I can't remember his name.

1185
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:23,800
I just remember his car.

1186
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:25,640
He had a Ford Granada, nice car.

1187
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,400
So he took me to the pub and he said, you know, mate, have a drink.

1188
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,760
He said, just relax and then we'll go back when you're ready.

1189
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:31,920
And he waited with me.

1190
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:32,920
Bless him.

1191
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,000
He waited with me and I said, yeah, come on and we'll go back.

1192
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,040
So we came back and he actually came into the house for a drink as well.

1193
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,120
In the end, I went back and it was a bit of a hero's welcome.

1194
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,480
I got interviewed by the local paper.

1195
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:49,880
I did a couple of charity events to raise money for the injured.

1196
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:57,960
And then I would say within two weeks, yeah, I'll say two weeks, I'd gone from being a

1197
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,760
hero to being that gobshite.

1198
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:05,880
Here he comes, the war hero, boring bastard.

1199
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:07,880
These are people that were in the army.

1200
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,920
Yeah, here he comes.

1201
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:10,920
He did fuck all.

1202
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:11,920
He did nothing.

1203
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:12,920
He's bluffing.

1204
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:13,920
He's a liar.

1205
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:14,920
He didn't do anything.

1206
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:16,960
So, no, it didn't last long that bit.

1207
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:23,280
Can I just say, not everyone, not everyone, but some people were quite, what's the right

1208
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:27,240
word, not nasty because I couldn't give a fuck what they thought.

1209
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:28,240
Sorry, I do swear.

1210
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,440
I couldn't give a fuck what they thought.

1211
01:11:30,440 --> 01:11:31,440
But they were very nice to me.

1212
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:32,440
Here he comes.

1213
01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:37,400
Here's the war hero, boring, you know, all that sort of stuff.

1214
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:42,740
But when you say, can I just say they're the minority?

1215
01:11:42,740 --> 01:11:47,880
Even today, if I go out or my friends go out, we've got a Falklands t-shirt on or something

1216
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,880
like that, people still come up and say, well done.

1217
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,320
And it's 42 years later.

1218
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:57,960
Okay, so the British public do remember, yeah, in the main they do.

1219
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,080
A lot of people do come up and say, oh, you know, nice one, mate.

1220
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:02,080
Was you in the Falklands?

1221
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:03,080
Yeah, I was, mate.

1222
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:04,080
Oh, was you?

1223
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:05,080
I put my neck.

1224
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:06,080
All right.

1225
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,520
So I wouldn't say it ended that quick.

1226
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:12,960
I'm just saying that familiarity breeds contempt, doesn't it?

1227
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:18,960
So the fact that they were supposed to be my friends, but they were nice at first, but

1228
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:19,960
then they were like that.

1229
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:20,960
Oh, fucking off, boring bastard.

1230
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,120
So, okay, so I don't talk to some of them now anyway.

1231
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:25,120
I'll sleep.

1232
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,440
Are these people that didn't go though?

1233
01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:28,440
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1234
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:29,440
People didn't go.

1235
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:30,440
They were jealous.

1236
01:12:30,440 --> 01:12:31,440
So it's jealousy.

1237
01:12:31,440 --> 01:12:32,440
Yeah.

1238
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:33,440
Because some of them were in the army and never did nothing.

1239
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:34,440
So they were jealous.

1240
01:12:34,440 --> 01:12:35,440
That's all it is.

1241
01:12:35,440 --> 01:12:36,440
Pure jealousy.

1242
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:42,080
Well, if they're jealous, they can have the memories I've got.

1243
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:43,080
On you go.

1244
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,080
You have them.

1245
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:45,080
Yeah.

1246
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:48,080
Everybody wants to do it until it happens.

1247
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:49,080
Yeah.

1248
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,080
What about the environment then?

1249
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:54,320
Can I just say, I've got great friends around here.

1250
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:55,800
I go out socialising all the time.

1251
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,440
I'm not bitter in any way, but when people ask me about the heroes, welcome, I just make

1252
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:03,480
a point that, yes, I got one, but some people, no.

1253
01:13:03,480 --> 01:13:04,480
Okay.

1254
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:05,480
They weren't very nice at all.

1255
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:06,480
And quite frankly, I don't care about.

1256
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:07,480
Yeah.

1257
01:13:07,480 --> 01:13:08,480
Yeah.

1258
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:10,600
That's an important part of the whole conversation.

1259
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,320
What about the environment around them?

1260
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:18,320
When I looked at the time that a soldier maybe would be leaving if they just did a short

1261
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:24,000
stint in the military, we had the biggest depression when it came to unemployment and

1262
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,000
that kind of thing.

1263
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:29,320
So what was the nation like when you came back those next few years?

1264
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:36,040
I've heard people say that the nation was much better after the Falklands War because

1265
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:41,760
we were from the 70s, the late 70s to sort of about 1982.

1266
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:42,760
Everyone thought Britain was finished.

1267
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,200
It was a country.

1268
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:51,000
But then the Falklands War happened and it made us think, oh, we can do things.

1269
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:52,000
We can do.

1270
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:53,000
Okay.

1271
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,160
I'm not for one minute suggesting that it was the political panacea for everything,

1272
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:57,160
not at all.

1273
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,560
It was just, it was a mouth in the country felt better.

1274
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,200
Oh, we can achieve things.

1275
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:02,200
We can do things.

1276
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:05,620
Perhaps we're not as bad as everyone thinks we are.

1277
01:14:05,620 --> 01:14:07,440
So there was that part of it.

1278
01:14:07,440 --> 01:14:13,600
But of course, yeah, the country was still in really dire straits with regards to, you

1279
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:18,000
know, industrial action, unemployment, jobs, the financial situation wasn't very good

1280
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,000
for people.

1281
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,000
No, it wasn't.

1282
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:22,000
Okay.

1283
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:26,360
Now, what made you stay in the military when a lot of people transitioned out into the

1284
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:27,920
civilian community after that?

1285
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,800
A lot of people left the forces after the fall because they'd done what they wanted

1286
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:32,800
to do.

1287
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:34,920
They only wanted to go to war.

1288
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:37,040
So they've done that.

1289
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,840
So I don't want to go back to being a peacetime soldier.

1290
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,720
I don't want to go back to doing exercises or maneuvers.

1291
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,440
I don't want to go back to doing this and standing on the gate of God and all that.

1292
01:14:46,440 --> 01:14:47,440
No, I don't do that anymore.

1293
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:48,440
I've done the real thing.

1294
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:51,320
So I'm leaving an awful lot of people left.

1295
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,000
An awful lot of people.

1296
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:57,360
I remember this is quite a weird thing.

1297
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:05,040
By all my September 1982, you know, so June, July, August, September, three months after

1298
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:12,840
the war had finished, I still wasn't even in the army because I hadn't signed on.

1299
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:18,700
Because you don't start your military service till you're 18.

1300
01:15:18,700 --> 01:15:22,920
So I didn't start my, I still hadn't started my service, believe it or not.

1301
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:24,600
Isn't that weird?

1302
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:25,600
That's really weird.

1303
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:27,600
You already got combat under your belt.

1304
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:28,600
Well, no, no, no.

1305
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:33,240
I mean, I couldn't get out because I hadn't joined yet.

1306
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:34,240
It's weird.

1307
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:35,240
It's a source.

1308
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:39,960
It's a source of slight irritation, but it's also a weird thing.

1309
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,320
There's no record of me serving the Falklands War, for instance.

1310
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:45,320
That's crazy.

1311
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,680
No, because records start when you're 18.

1312
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:54,400
After my service, when I got my, what we call, you know, as you get a service pension, like

1313
01:15:54,400 --> 01:16:03,200
you may get from the fire department, my pensionable service starts on August 6th.

1314
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,520
My service in the Falklands doesn't count towards anything.

1315
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,520
I've tried to challenge it, but I've got nowhere.

1316
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:10,520
That's bizarre.

1317
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:12,840
Absolutely bizarre.

1318
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,520
What about serving in Northern Ireland?

1319
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:23,400
Well, from 1982, it wasn't until 1989, so a whole seven years, that three panellists

1320
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:24,400
actually went to Northern Ireland.

1321
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:30,400
It's a very, very long gap, very unheard of, and I've no idea why.

1322
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:36,520
But we did a tour in Cyprus, United Nations in Cyprus.

1323
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,360
We did six months there, and we did lots of exercises, working with five airborne brigade,

1324
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:42,360
lots of maneuvers.

1325
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:43,360
OK.

1326
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,080
It was Mrs. Thatcher's baby, shall we say.

1327
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,960
She loved five airborne brigade, so she kept giving us lots of equipment.

1328
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:55,560
We got rid of lots of overseas tours, you know, like America, France, that sort of thing.

1329
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:59,120
And it wasn't until 1989 that we actually went.

1330
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,200
That was my first tour of Northern Ireland.

1331
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:06,040
Seven year gap is an awful long time for a parachute battalion not to go to Northern

1332
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Ireland.

1333
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:08,040
And I've no idea why.

1334
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,840
I'm sure maybe somebody higher up could explain.

1335
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:16,400
So we went to Northern Ireland in 1989, and I was a young Lance Corporal then in charge

1336
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:20,520
of a team of four men on the street in Northern Ireland.

1337
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,160
How was that received?

1338
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:23,160
How did you feel about that?

1339
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:27,000
The reason I ask is, you know, obviously when you're in the Falklands War, you know, you've

1340
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:33,720
got people from a country a long, long way away that look different to us as well overall.

1341
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:37,560
But the people I've had on here that were in Northern Ireland struggle with the fact

1342
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:38,840
that it was our own people.

1343
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:43,000
And I've always said this when people say, oh, do you hate the Welsh or the Scottish?

1344
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,400
I'm like, what are two rocks in the middle of the ocean?

1345
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:49,600
I consider everyone on those two rocks to be, you know, the same kind of nation that

1346
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,600
I'm from collectively.

1347
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,920
What was your perception of kind of policing, you know, arguably your own people in that

1348
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:57,920
particular event?

1349
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,240
Half of my family are from Southern Ireland.

1350
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:05,520
Okay, so the Irish will always be my family.

1351
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:11,720
But I used to consider everyone in the United Kingdom and even Southern Ireland, and then

1352
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,360
we've had our differences, Southern Ireland, part of the British Isles, if you want to

1353
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:16,360
call it that.

1354
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,880
And I used to think that until I went to Northern Ireland.

1355
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:25,680
And then I found a group of people who, for whatever reason, detest, despise and hate

1356
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,520
everything that I love.

1357
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,280
They absolutely despise it.

1358
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:31,280
And that's up to them.

1359
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:32,920
They're entitled to their opinion.

1360
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:33,920
So am I.

1361
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:35,480
I'm British and proud of it.

1362
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:36,800
You're not.

1363
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:37,800
On you go.

1364
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,240
And like, I really found it difficult.

1365
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:46,760
Can I just say, not everyone in Northern Ireland, not everyone, but some people in Northern

1366
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,720
Ireland despise everything there is about the British.

1367
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:54,640
And if they even call the British Army terrorists, and that's just the biggest insult you could

1368
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,560
ever give to a soldier is to call them a terrorist.

1369
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:01,160
It's an absolute disgrace to even utter those words.

1370
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:02,760
It really is.

1371
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,280
But they hated us.

1372
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:06,920
They hated us.

1373
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,040
Yeah, it's so hard for me to comprehend again.

1374
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,880
Firstly thinking about that we're all the same kind of people.

1375
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:16,280
And then you've got the Catholics and the Protestant, and you've got the Loyalists and

1376
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:21,600
all these different kind of pigeonholes that we put ourselves into when we're all the same

1377
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:22,600
people.

1378
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:27,920
You've got those two groups of people who hate each other for whatever reason.

1379
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:29,800
Not everyone, please don't get me wrong.

1380
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:30,800
Not everybody.

1381
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:32,160
I'm not for one minute generalizing that everyone's like this.

1382
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:33,800
But you've got the Catholics and the Protestants.

1383
01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:37,840
I would sum up Northern Ireland like this.

1384
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:42,680
If somebody was killed, the first thing, you've got two groups of people, and as soon as you

1385
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:47,480
said where they lived, one group would be upset, the other group wouldn't be bothered.

1386
01:19:47,480 --> 01:19:52,600
Also Mr. O'Rourke from the Falls Road, all the Protestants would go, yeah, so what?

1387
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:56,160
And then if you say, oh, blah, blah from Newton Ars Road, all the Catholics would go, so what?

1388
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:57,720
Not the fact that a human being's dead.

1389
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,520
Oh no, no, no, not that.

1390
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:02,600
Oh, doesn't affect us because he's not one of ours.

1391
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:07,440
And in the middle, they would put us, okay, trying to keep those two groups of people

1392
01:20:07,440 --> 01:20:10,440
apart and stop them killing each other.

1393
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:15,640
Okay, it was just the way I viewed it.

1394
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:20,680
And I couldn't get my head around walking out of a police station, walking five yards,

1395
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:23,680
and having someone spit in your face.

1396
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:27,600
And we had to show the utmost restraint, of course.

1397
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,160
If we retaliated, we would have been prosecuted.

1398
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:31,160
Not them.

1399
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:33,200
Oh no, we would have been.

1400
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:34,200
Absolutely.

1401
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:39,800
But again, it goes back to this, what is the real root cause amongst these groups?

1402
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:43,760
Are there people at the top that are fueling the fire, that are gaining money, gaining

1403
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:46,680
power from this, you know, carrying on?

1404
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:50,840
And you look at Gaza, you look at all these places where people are basically the same

1405
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:54,760
background, have been doing this for decades, if not hundreds of years.

1406
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:59,720
And it's just, when are we going to evolve as a species to realize that it's the few

1407
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:02,400
that always cause the problem for the masses?

1408
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:08,480
Well, the Northern Ireland problem, people say, oh, the trouble started in 1969.

1409
01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:09,480
No, they didn't.

1410
01:21:09,480 --> 01:21:10,480
That'd be ridiculous.

1411
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:11,480
They most certainly did not.

1412
01:21:11,480 --> 01:21:12,480
They started long ago.

1413
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:17,360
They'd been ongoing for years and years before that.

1414
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:18,360
Long time before then.

1415
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:20,160
Long time before I arrived in the problems.

1416
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:27,200
Okay, I've done all I can to try and understand the situation in Northern Ireland, but I wouldn't

1417
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:29,400
say I'm any wiser than anybody else.

1418
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:32,600
I've tried to look at it from both sides.

1419
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:37,240
But it's just that at that time, when we went there in 1980, we were in between two groups

1420
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:41,880
of people who, for whatever reason, despised each other, all the rest of it.

1421
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,040
And then they go into Belfast city centre on a Saturday night and drink next to each

1422
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:46,040
other.

1423
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:47,040
Okay, bizarre.

1424
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:52,400
It's a weird, weird place.

1425
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:57,280
Someone made an observation on this show about two years ago now, and it was so spot on.

1426
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:02,040
They were like, you have, say, Everton and Liverpool fans that will literally beat each

1427
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,240
other up in the streets.

1428
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:08,520
But then if they both go to Spain on holiday, they'll be like, oh, you're from England.

1429
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:09,520
Yeah, I'm from England.

1430
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:10,520
You know what I mean?

1431
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,360
So the moment you remove some of those...

1432
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:16,200
I might just correct you there on that one.

1433
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,320
The chance of Liverpool and Everton fans beating each other up is actually quite remote because

1434
01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:20,320
you all know each other.

1435
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:21,320
There we go.

1436
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:28,760
But can I just, as an example of that, I would be on holiday and I have tattoos, okay, and

1437
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:33,040
if I'm wearing shorts, you can see a Power Street Regiment tattoo, okay, and you'll get

1438
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:37,960
people from Northern Ireland, from the Catholic side, and I'll just say hello.

1439
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:42,680
Whereas 20 odd years ago, they would have laughed at me if I was bleeding to death.

1440
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:44,840
That's the other thing I couldn't comprehend.

1441
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,920
If I was Indian in the middle of the streets in Northern Ireland, everyone would stand

1442
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:51,440
around me and just watch people eat to death.

1443
01:22:51,440 --> 01:22:54,200
And I just couldn't get my head around that.

1444
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:56,000
No, I just couldn't.

1445
01:22:56,000 --> 01:23:01,480
Not get my head around it, but I'm not going to say it made me dislike them, but I'm not

1446
01:23:01,480 --> 01:23:04,680
going to say I had a lot of time for it, because I didn't.

1447
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:10,200
Well you mentioned before about having to compartmentalise the horrors of the Falklands

1448
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,880
War and now you're still serving, you're in Northern Ireland, so you've got these other

1449
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:16,240
traumas building.

1450
01:23:16,240 --> 01:23:20,880
Was there a point in your life where they did arise or you did start unpacking them

1451
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,600
to make sure they didn't become something that would be detrimental?

1452
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:31,880
I couldn't put a date on it, okay, because if I put a date on it, that means I must have

1453
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:34,160
known it was happening, but I didn't.

1454
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:35,160
I didn't know.

1455
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:39,680
I'm a completely different person now than I was in 1988 or 1989.

1456
01:23:39,680 --> 01:23:40,680
Completely different.

1457
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:41,680
Completely different.

1458
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:48,440
Anyone who knew me in 1989 would probably go, you know, you weren't very nice and I

1459
01:23:48,440 --> 01:23:49,440
wouldn't agree with that.

1460
01:23:49,440 --> 01:23:52,680
I probably wasn't, okay, because I didn't know.

1461
01:23:52,680 --> 01:24:00,600
It wasn't until about 1996, 1997 that somebody mentioned that you think it might be that

1462
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:09,080
and then I started to explore the possibility that there might be some sort of mental health

1463
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:14,640
trauma from the Falklands, nothing along the lines of PTSD or complex PTSD, okay, not at

1464
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:15,640
all.

1465
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:18,840
But maybe that's why I've got the attitude towards certain things that I have and maybe

1466
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:19,840
I need to explore.

1467
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:21,320
I wonder if that's the issue.

1468
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:25,480
Can I get rid of some of the anger that I had?

1469
01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:31,880
Okay, yeah, and eventually, as I said, I'm a completely different person to what I was

1470
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:32,880
in 1988, 1989.

1471
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:34,640
Completely different.

1472
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:40,080
I really like that kind of, not even phrase, the description, the umbrella, there's moral

1473
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,800
injury because PTSD, as you said, you hear a car backfire and now you're under a table.

1474
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:47,920
There are very specific things that happen with that.

1475
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:50,480
No, exactly, but most of us don't.

1476
01:24:50,480 --> 01:24:55,000
The firefighters, the cops, all the people, most of it is more of the moral injury.

1477
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:59,920
It's the emotional side of loss, of trauma, of some of these other things, organizational

1478
01:24:59,920 --> 01:25:07,600
betrayal even, that can contribute to that kind of response versus the true classic flashbacks,

1479
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:09,960
I can't sleep PTSD thing.

1480
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:14,600
So I have nothing but sympathy for people who do stuff with that.

1481
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:18,080
So what were the tools, what were some of the things that you found started helping

1482
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:23,360
you processing, started helping you be positive outlets for some of this?

1483
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:29,600
Just, I suppose, just trying to chill out a bit more.

1484
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:34,360
I found myself with like, chilled out people.

1485
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:39,720
Instead of spending my entire time around soldiers, I started to go to a lot of, I mean,

1486
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:44,880
I've always gone to them, but I started to go and make civilian friends at concerts and

1487
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:49,920
festivals and I'd make friends with people who I'm still friends with now.

1488
01:25:49,920 --> 01:25:53,760
They weren't interested in the army and I could go to a festival for five days and not

1489
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:55,360
even talk about the army.

1490
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:59,880
Great, whereas before, everything would be around the army.

1491
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:06,440
So I started doing other things outside of the military, like I started to play football

1492
01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:07,440
a lot more.

1493
01:26:07,440 --> 01:26:12,280
I started to play, not just for my unit, I started to play football outside, so meeting

1494
01:26:12,280 --> 01:26:14,320
civilian friends and getting friends with civilians.

1495
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:19,800
Rather than just constantly surrounding myself with soldiers, I've got obviously all my best

1496
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:21,600
friends and my brothers are soldiers.

1497
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:27,200
But I found that that was helping me to get away from, you know, the sort of constant,

1498
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:31,960
what's the right word, constant soldier sort of attitude to everything.

1499
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:39,400
So I started to do that and towards sort of the mid-90s, I met a major at a place called

1500
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:44,520
Arborfield and he said to me, it is clear that there is something wrong, there is something

1501
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:50,000
wrong there, so we need to, and he put me in touch with a few people, yeah, to sort

1502
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:54,800
of try and get, I suppose, no, no, you would call it counselling, but it was just chatting

1503
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,520
to people and explaining and them saying things to me and I'm going, Fluminette, yeah, is

1504
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:00,520
that what that is?

1505
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:01,520
He went, yeah.

1506
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:02,520
All right, okay.

1507
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:04,560
Didn't realise that, he said, that's what that is.

1508
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:09,840
You know, like sort of guilt complex, you know, whenever I hear my mate's dead, that

1509
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:10,840
sort of thing.

1510
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:11,840
Yeah, survivor's guilt.

1511
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:16,240
I thought that was really, really weird and he said, no, no, no, it would be really, really

1512
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:17,240
weird if he didn't have that.

1513
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:18,240
I went, oh, okay then.

1514
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:20,240
So it's normal, he went, yep.

1515
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:21,240
All right, okay.

1516
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:26,240
So what I thought was abnormal, when people started telling me, no, that's perfectly normal.

1517
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:29,240
That's perfectly normal to be like that.

1518
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:30,240
Yeah.

1519
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:34,360
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, when you've been indoctrinated in an organisation, and

1520
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:39,040
I mean that in a positive way, like, you know, the military or police or fire, your baseline

1521
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,240
is seeing horrible stuff, whether it's at war, for us, it's, you know, literally almost,

1522
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,880
you know, on a weekly basis, certainly, and then you come out of that and people tell

1523
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:49,120
you like, you know, you're not supposed to see that, right?

1524
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:53,720
And it was interesting, I was at Heathrow last year on a plane waiting to go back to

1525
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:58,840
America and a guy had a heart attack on the plane and I ended up working him CPR and the

1526
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,000
fire came on and the ambulance came on.

1527
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:07,440
But it was the first time I'd worked a code for four years since I left the fire service.

1528
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:11,040
And you know, it was kind of weird because I helped him all the way until I was like,

1529
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:12,040
hey, do you need me anymore?

1530
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:13,320
They're like, no, you're good, we'll come find you.

1531
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:16,920
So I went to the bathroom on the toilet on the plane, washed my hands, got the blood

1532
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:18,520
off and then went and took my seat.

1533
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:20,240
It's kind of strange.

1534
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:21,800
So I didn't have that unit with me.

1535
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:22,800
I didn't have my equipment.

1536
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,160
I didn't have other people that knew what they were doing.

1537
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:27,440
And then I didn't have that decompression.

1538
01:28:27,440 --> 01:28:31,160
We go to the hospital and we wash the gear and, you know, go back in service.

1539
01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:32,760
And it kind of shook me for a day or two.

1540
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:34,600
And I was like, what is going on?

1541
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:40,040
You know, I 14 years, I did this like almost every single day and I realized, oh shit,

1542
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,720
this is how you're supposed to feel when someone dies.

1543
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:46,160
It was so strange, but we forget that because we're in it.

1544
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:49,680
Yeah, because we're told to look, that's part of the job.

1545
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:50,880
Don't worry about it.

1546
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:53,160
You've seen that, you know, your mates have died.

1547
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:54,480
You've seen this, you've seen that.

1548
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:56,080
Okay, but that's part of the job.

1549
01:28:56,080 --> 01:29:00,920
But then when you leave, you find out that what you would consider to be the ordinary

1550
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:02,920
is actually extraordinary.

1551
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:07,600
99.9% of people never ever deal or see a dead person.

1552
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:08,600
They don't.

1553
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:09,600
They never.

1554
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:10,600
Okay, because why?

1555
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:13,360
Because that's extraordinary to see that.

1556
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:18,120
Whereas we did it, you know, in different guises in different areas and it was considered

1557
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:19,120
the norm.

1558
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:21,120
But it's not, is it?

1559
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:22,120
No, it's not.

1560
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:23,120
Exactly.

1561
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:24,920
Well, speaking of that, that's a good segue then.

1562
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:29,960
So talk to me about when you decided to finally transition out of the military and how did

1563
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:33,720
that lead you to EMT training in America?

1564
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:40,640
Well, I served a total of 28 years, I served.

1565
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:43,720
I left in 2008.

1566
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,920
And at that time, there was a lot of money to be made in the security industry, a lot

1567
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:52,320
of money to be made in places like Afghanistan, Iraq as security guards.

1568
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:54,280
But a lot of the guys were doing it.

1569
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:55,760
So it was actually quite difficult to get a job.

1570
01:29:55,760 --> 01:30:00,560
Now, a good mate of mine called Stu, Stu Richards said, Mick, what they can't get is medics.

1571
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:05,120
And I'd always been a sort of first aid, a medic, team medic, all the rest of it in

1572
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:06,120
the forces anyway.

1573
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,120
So I said, okay, so I'll do that.

1574
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:15,640
So I went to America, I went to Pelham training in Indianapolis, and I trained in EMT basic.

1575
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:19,440
Then I was hopefully going to go on to do the paramedic course.

1576
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:23,600
However, I had a metal hip fitted.

1577
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:25,600
So I couldn't have done it anyway.

1578
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:27,080
Not with a metal hip.

1579
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:28,920
I don't think I could have.

1580
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:35,000
But what happened was I then got a job, okay, working in South Sudan with some guys from

1581
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:42,160
our regiment working out there with the USAID working out there.

1582
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:46,240
I did that for about four months, four or five months.

1583
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:47,240
It was really enjoyable.

1584
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:48,240
It was really good.

1585
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:49,240
Okay.

1586
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:50,240
Bit of a strange world.

1587
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:54,720
Bit of a strange world because obviously they have a different, they put a different value

1588
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:56,920
on life, that's for sure.

1589
01:30:56,920 --> 01:30:59,640
Life seems awful cheap in some places in the world.

1590
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:00,640
Awful cheap.

1591
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:05,760
And I just went, I went down to EMT because it's always interested me.

1592
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:13,560
Now while I was out in South Sudan, okay, the contract finished or sorry, I had my contract

1593
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:14,600
finished, sorry.

1594
01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:19,920
I then came back and then ended up as I am now teaching first aid.

1595
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,480
I did a couple of other things in that as well.

1596
01:31:22,480 --> 01:31:27,960
So yeah, what else was it about the EMT you'd like to know?

1597
01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:28,960
That was it really.

1598
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:36,080
But when you just go back to Sudan for a second, what was the kind of the philosophy amongst

1599
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:40,280
that culture that created a lower value of human life?

1600
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:42,360
I've no idea.

1601
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:47,280
It was a case of if somebody's got something, then you take it off them.

1602
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:48,800
Quite lawless.

1603
01:31:48,800 --> 01:31:56,640
We were in the capital city, Juba, and it was quite a lawless place to say the least.

1604
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:59,440
They just had a very low value on life.

1605
01:31:59,440 --> 01:32:00,600
And they were very tribal.

1606
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:05,120
For instance, somebody from South Sudan wouldn't get into a vehicle with someone from Kenya,

1607
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:06,360
you know, that kind of thing.

1608
01:32:06,360 --> 01:32:07,360
It was very tribal.

1609
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:11,320
I found that a bit strange, to be perfectly honest.

1610
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:13,680
But I don't know why they have such a low value on life.

1611
01:32:13,680 --> 01:32:14,880
I really don't.

1612
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:15,880
But they do.

1613
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:19,040
They don't seem to be...

1614
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:24,480
For instance, myself, obviously as a white person out there, obviously with colonialism,

1615
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:29,440
etc., if we weren't allowed to carry weapons, for instance, that was the South Sudanese

1616
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:30,440
law.

1617
01:32:30,440 --> 01:32:31,440
We weren't allowed to carry weapons.

1618
01:32:31,440 --> 01:32:34,440
So if they wanted to kill us, they could.

1619
01:32:34,440 --> 01:32:36,240
Yeah, absolutely.

1620
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:37,600
It's just a cheap...

1621
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:39,720
Sorry, life seems so cheap.

1622
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:40,720
Sorry.

1623
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:42,120
I've said this a lot.

1624
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:46,680
We look at evolution and people look at, oh, we have the internet now and we have AI.

1625
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:47,680
And I disagree.

1626
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:50,040
I think human evolution is kindness and compassion.

1627
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:55,200
If you look at the barbarity of some of our ancestors a long time ago, even from the UK

1628
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:59,520
and the torture and all that kind of stuff, I think that's the ultimate evolution.

1629
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:03,600
And this goes back to the comment earlier in the interview.

1630
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:08,880
If we keep allowing these few people to be tyrants, we're not going to evolve as a species.

1631
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:14,440
But if we actually collectively work together and raise a whole community or a whole country

1632
01:33:14,440 --> 01:33:19,320
up, that also then allows us to help some of the countries that are struggling.

1633
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:20,320
Yeah.

1634
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:27,480
But the utopian vision that we all have or we would all like, part of human evolution

1635
01:33:27,480 --> 01:33:30,480
is also that we are mammals and we are survivors.

1636
01:33:30,480 --> 01:33:34,880
And I'm afraid you will always get the odd person who doesn't evolve.

1637
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:40,560
And like you said, it is a minority, I get that, but you look at people like, well, look

1638
01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:44,680
at some of the politicians in the world today, without naming any countries or anything like

1639
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:47,680
that, because you don't want to get into a political argument.

1640
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:53,840
But one or two people or maybe two or three people are ruining the world for everyone.

1641
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:54,840
Yeah.

1642
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:55,840
And I don't think that's politics.

1643
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:56,840
I think that's humanity.

1644
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,840
And this is actually an interesting thing.

1645
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:03,640
Most of us will evolve and try and be better that way, but some people just won't.

1646
01:34:03,640 --> 01:34:05,120
They just won't.

1647
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:07,160
They're stuck in the past.

1648
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:12,280
Or maybe have different role models or different ideas about how things should be done.

1649
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:13,280
100%.

1650
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:17,880
Well, just one more area and then we'll go to some closing questions.

1651
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:22,600
An area where people seem to struggle a little bit when they've been in uniform, especially

1652
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:26,640
for a long time, is that transition out, that ultimate transition out.

1653
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:29,840
We've had that try, we've had that sense of purpose.

1654
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:34,160
And then one day, I would say in the fire service, the door closed behind us on the

1655
01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:37,080
fire station and we ceased to be part of that anymore.

1656
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:38,680
We are always going to be firefighters.

1657
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:40,840
You will always be a paratrooper in your heart.

1658
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:45,280
But it can be quite jarring for people to be on the outside.

1659
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:47,200
What was your transition like?

1660
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:53,120
And if it was good, what were the tools that you used to make it better?

1661
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:57,760
I found a transition getting out of the military and getting into military.

1662
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:01,920
I think because of the amount of time I served and I kind of left on my own terms, if you

1663
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:02,920
know what I mean.

1664
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:04,280
They said, oh, do you want another job?

1665
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:05,840
And I went, do you know what?

1666
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:06,840
No.

1667
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:09,240
Whereas I suppose if somebody comes to the end of their time and they're forced to get

1668
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:12,360
out, I can see where they might get a bit of a panic and a bit of a ground rush.

1669
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,180
Oh my God, I've got to do this, I've got to do that.

1670
01:35:14,180 --> 01:35:17,440
So I had 12 months to prepare to leave, you see.

1671
01:35:17,440 --> 01:35:23,920
I had 12 months to get everything ready for me to leave the military.

1672
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:28,000
It was, there's no point in saying it wasn't a wrench because it was, it had been my life

1673
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:32,440
since, well, for me, being a parachute had been my life since the age of 12 or 13 years

1674
01:35:32,440 --> 01:35:33,520
of age.

1675
01:35:33,520 --> 01:35:35,800
So it had always been what I wanted to do.

1676
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:37,280
So it was a wrench to leave.

1677
01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:42,360
And I suppose you could argue, if I look in my front room now, I'm going out with my friends

1678
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:45,040
tomorrow, what I'm going to wear, parachute regiment t-shirt.

1679
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:46,880
So yeah, and I understand that.

1680
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,480
Maybe I haven't let go completely.

1681
01:35:50,480 --> 01:35:56,080
But I found the transition quite easy in a way, but I did have the, just like everybody

1682
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:59,400
else, I had the, I definitely had the problems.

1683
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:00,400
Yeah.

1684
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:03,080
I mean, somebody said to me, you won't keep your first job.

1685
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:05,960
And they were absolutely right.

1686
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:10,840
My first job was working in South Sudan with people that I'd served with and I messed it

1687
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:11,840
up.

1688
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:12,840
Yeah.

1689
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:13,840
And I don't mind saying that.

1690
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:15,200
I messed it up.

1691
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:16,200
So that was correct.

1692
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:17,200
You won't get your first job.

1693
01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:25,600
And I spoke to somebody, quite an older guy, and he said to me, listen, civilian life has

1694
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:27,000
been doing really, really okay.

1695
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:30,000
I'm really, really well while you've been in the army.

1696
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:31,000
Okay.

1697
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:35,400
And the sooner you realize that they don't care or not that they don't care, they're

1698
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:36,880
just not that interested.

1699
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:39,200
The easier you will find it.

1700
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:45,360
And I started giving myself the mindset, listen, no one gives a toss.

1701
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:47,120
So don't get upset about it.

1702
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:49,280
And that's how I dealt with it.

1703
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:53,640
I never, I'm going out with my colleagues tomorrow, any of that, ex-military, that's

1704
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:54,640
why I'm wearing that t-shirt.

1705
01:36:54,640 --> 01:37:00,880
But I don't, when I go to work, there's nothing, no insignia on me to say that I was in the

1706
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:02,520
Forties or anything like that.

1707
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:04,000
If people ask, I'll admit it.

1708
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:06,000
I'll say, yeah, I was.

1709
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,000
If they don't, then I won't mention it.

1710
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:12,560
And sometimes it's easier not to mention it because sometimes they come up with the same

1711
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:13,560
usual questions.

1712
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:14,560
Did you kill anyone?

1713
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:15,560
Did you do this?

1714
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:16,560
Did you do that?

1715
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:17,560
I don't mean anything by it.

1716
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:20,560
It's just not the questions you want to answer.

1717
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:21,560
No, absolutely.

1718
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:27,640
And it's funny because even I think the realisation that the moment we walk out of that profession,

1719
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:32,680
that there's a fresh body in our seat, the next shift, the next day, that's jarring too.

1720
01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:34,240
But oh my word.

1721
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:35,240
Yeah.

1722
01:37:35,240 --> 01:37:40,800
And somebody also said to me, be very, very careful what you tell people because there

1723
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,120
will be some of them that can't wait to use it against you.

1724
01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:46,720
And he was right.

1725
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:49,080
He was right about that.

1726
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:54,280
Just be careful what you tell people because they can't wait to either go away and use

1727
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:56,320
it against you to other people.

1728
01:37:56,320 --> 01:37:58,960
That silly question.

1729
01:37:58,960 --> 01:37:59,960
Did you kill anyone?

1730
01:37:59,960 --> 01:38:02,160
If you say yes, they won't believe you.

1731
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:05,280
And if you say no, they won't believe you.

1732
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:06,280
So it's a no-win situation.

1733
01:38:06,280 --> 01:38:07,280
It's a no-win situation.

1734
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:08,280
Absolutely.

1735
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:09,280
All right.

1736
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:14,160
Well, then I want to go to some closing questions if you don't mind.

1737
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:18,660
The first one I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?

1738
01:38:18,660 --> 01:38:23,000
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

1739
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:28,920
Three Days in June, written by my very good friend, James O'Connell.

1740
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:32,440
It's an outstanding account of the battle for Mount Longden.

1741
01:38:32,440 --> 01:38:38,280
It's outstanding because James went round and interviewed everybody from every rank,

1742
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:39,280
not just the officers.

1743
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:42,360
And no disrespect to the officers, I'm not being critical at all.

1744
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:46,200
I'm just saying that when people interview, when anyone's ever interviewed on the TV,

1745
01:38:46,200 --> 01:38:49,680
the only team to interview officers, they never asked the private soldiers what they

1746
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:50,680
were doing.

1747
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:51,680
Beautiful.

1748
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:52,680
Yeah.

1749
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:55,160
Three Days in June is a fantastic book.

1750
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:58,960
And you can get it on an audio book if you don't want to read it.

1751
01:38:58,960 --> 01:38:59,960
All right.

1752
01:38:59,960 --> 01:39:00,960
Perfect.

1753
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:02,120
Well, what about films and documentaries?

1754
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:04,640
Any of those that you love?

1755
01:39:04,640 --> 01:39:07,880
I tend to avoid war films.

1756
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:13,280
I would rather watch Jurassic Park or Star Wars.

1757
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:17,920
I find them more realistic.

1758
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:22,800
But there is a book, sorry, there is a film made by the Argentinians and it's called Blessed

1759
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:23,800
by Fire.

1760
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:24,800
OK.

1761
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:31,000
And that's a film about the battle for Mount Longden and how the Argentinian veterans were

1762
01:39:31,000 --> 01:39:33,040
treated when they got back.

1763
01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:34,720
We got a hero's welcome.

1764
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:36,480
They most certainly did not.

1765
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:37,480
Really?

1766
01:39:37,480 --> 01:39:40,160
And it's a good insight.

1767
01:39:40,160 --> 01:39:41,160
It's a good insight.

1768
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:47,080
I know people, people shouting at the screen now go, Mick, how can you say that?

1769
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:51,580
If German soldiers and British soldiers from the Second World War can sit in a bar with

1770
01:39:51,580 --> 01:39:55,800
each other, then why can't Argentinians and British soldiers?

1771
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,680
That's just my way of thinking.

1772
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:01,400
I don't hold anything against Argentinian soldiers.

1773
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:04,320
And I do understand where people totally disagree with me on that.

1774
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:05,320
And that's fine.

1775
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:06,320
OK.

1776
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:10,880
And when I see British soldiers and German soldiers standing together at memorials, I

1777
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:12,960
think, well, why can't we do that?

1778
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:16,960
We weren't the enemy, the politicians were.

1779
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:18,320
I couldn't agree more.

1780
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:19,320
Yeah.

1781
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:24,720
We were just the young guys, all young guys doing a job and we should respect each other.

1782
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:27,120
And I do respect the Argentinians completely.

1783
01:40:27,120 --> 01:40:29,160
I've got nothing against them whatsoever.

1784
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:30,160
Brilliant.

1785
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:31,160
Yeah.

1786
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:32,160
I mean, it's funny.

1787
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:38,640
I had a guy who's one of the founding members of Delta in the US here and his first deployment

1788
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:39,640
was Vietnam.

1789
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,480
His last was Mogadishu, the Black Hawk Down incident.

1790
01:40:42,480 --> 01:40:45,280
So pretty storied career.

1791
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:51,320
And he went back and was actually through GORUCK, which is like a backpack company,

1792
01:40:51,320 --> 01:40:53,720
to source material for shoes.

1793
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:57,840
And he ended up meeting some Viet Cong fighters that he probably would have been pursuing

1794
01:40:57,840 --> 01:40:59,600
or pursued by.

1795
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,280
And they swapped stories and drank together and this is just it.

1796
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:07,840
I mean, as you said, these young men and all women are sent overseas.

1797
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:12,000
And again, don't get me wrong, if you were part of exterminating Jews in Auschwitz, that's

1798
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:14,680
a different kind of person, but your average soldier.

1799
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:15,680
Yeah.

1800
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:16,680
I'm sorry.

1801
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:24,000
The massive difference needs to be made between soldiers and what those vultures were doing.

1802
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:25,600
They weren't soldiers, they were cowards.

1803
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:29,880
Yeah, but how many of the Russians and Ukrainians, if they sat on a table together, realized

1804
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:32,280
they had way more in common than they have differences?

1805
01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:33,280
Probably.

1806
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:34,280
Probably.

1807
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:37,800
I wouldn't put that there in the same football shirts.

1808
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:38,800
All right.

1809
01:41:38,800 --> 01:41:42,720
So then the next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

1810
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:47,560
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the

1811
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:51,560
world?

1812
01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:53,320
I wouldn't like to recommend anybody.

1813
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:56,960
I could ask some people, but I wouldn't like to put their name on here in case you don't

1814
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:57,960
want to.

1815
01:41:57,960 --> 01:41:58,960
No problem.

1816
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,680
If there's someone you think that would be good, by all means.

1817
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:06,960
I do have a couple of people who can talk quite well about it.

1818
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:10,960
And I'll ask them and see what they say.

1819
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:17,640
But sometimes, especially if people were injured or had life changing injuries, they might

1820
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:20,080
not want to get involved.

1821
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:21,080
But I can only ask.

1822
01:42:21,080 --> 01:42:22,080
I can only ask.

1823
01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:26,120
Well, a good way to do it is if they listen to your episode and then if they like the

1824
01:42:26,120 --> 01:42:29,560
way it was done, then maybe it will peak their interest.

1825
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:30,560
I only do this.

1826
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:32,560
I only do this and I only do presentations.

1827
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:36,600
I do presentations about my long-distance for no other reason than just to keep history

1828
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:37,600
alive.

1829
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:41,200
Because unfortunately, and I'm going to get political now, we live in a country now where

1830
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:43,560
our history is hated.

1831
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:44,560
And I don't like it.

1832
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:46,760
So I do this just to keep history alive.

1833
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:47,760
Okay.

1834
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:52,000
We have children now leaving school who don't even know what the Second World War was.

1835
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:54,600
And we should be teaching them about our history.

1836
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:56,920
Otherwise, you'll only make the same mistakes.

1837
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:59,600
So yeah, that's why I do this.

1838
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:04,920
I got to say, I'm extremely proud of my son's schools here in Ocala where we've raised because

1839
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:08,040
every single day he's in AP like the advanced history.

1840
01:43:08,040 --> 01:43:10,800
He's educating me on World War Two and Vietnam.

1841
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:12,080
Did you know it was actually this?

1842
01:43:12,080 --> 01:43:14,040
And I'm like, no, I'm learning.

1843
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:17,680
I just learned about JFK and some of the bad stuff that he did.

1844
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:20,600
In America, you can raise you can fly your flag outside your house.

1845
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:24,320
It's considered to be a patriotic thing to do.

1846
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:27,280
If I fly my flag outside my house, I'm branded a racist.

1847
01:43:27,280 --> 01:43:28,640
Because the National Front.

1848
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:33,600
Well, no, no, I'm just branded a racist because there are far too many people in this country

1849
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:34,600
who hate it.

1850
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:38,160
Yeah, but isn't that initiated by I mean, it was kind of like hijacked from some of

1851
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:43,880
the neo-fascist groups with these absolutely small slithers of British people that kind

1852
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:46,760
of fucked it up for everyone else.

1853
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,760
You could say that you could say that but I would look at it from the other side.

1854
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:54,360
There are far too many people who for whatever reason dislike anything and everything even

1855
01:43:54,360 --> 01:43:57,880
before anyone even heard of the National Front.

1856
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:00,320
Even anything that Britain has done is wrong and bad.

1857
01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:03,920
And we're all horrible and we're all racists and all the rest of it.

1858
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:06,600
And yeah, that's why I do this to keep history alive.

1859
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:10,000
Well, this is the thing with history and I'll give a perfect example.

1860
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:12,800
The statue they pulled down in Bristol and I'm from Bath originally.

1861
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:17,320
So down the road from where I grew up, it was the guy because he was a slave trader.

1862
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:21,440
And I'm like, yeah, then fucking leave it up and change the plaque.

1863
01:44:21,440 --> 01:44:23,560
Say this is the goods that this guy did.

1864
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:26,280
But by the way, he was also a slave trading shit bag.

1865
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:27,280
So leave it there.

1866
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:30,680
So we all know like some of the stuff that we did, the British, you know, our forefathers

1867
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:33,760
did was hands down categorically wrong.

1868
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,640
But we've also done a lot of good as have so many other nations in the world.

1869
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:41,920
So teach the good and teach the bad so the next generations can learn and go, all right,

1870
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:42,920
well, we're going to do this.

1871
01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:44,440
We'll make sure we won't do this though.

1872
01:44:44,440 --> 01:44:49,440
But we live in a nation, I'm afraid we live in a nation here now where if I put the television

1873
01:44:49,440 --> 01:44:53,600
on, if you say, oh, yeah, well, Britain had a slave trade, which they did.

1874
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:54,600
That's fine.

1875
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:57,040
OK, but we also we were the only country to put stop to it.

1876
01:44:57,040 --> 01:44:58,040
Oh, no, that doesn't count.

1877
01:44:58,040 --> 01:44:59,040
I'm not interested in that.

1878
01:44:59,040 --> 01:45:00,040
Mm hmm.

1879
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:01,040
We have selective outrage.

1880
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:02,040
We have a living.

1881
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:05,160
Yeah, we have selective outrage.

1882
01:45:05,160 --> 01:45:07,440
We're outraged about that, but that's OK.

1883
01:45:07,440 --> 01:45:08,440
Yeah.

1884
01:45:08,440 --> 01:45:12,840
So yeah, without getting without getting too without getting too political, I live in a

1885
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:17,080
country where I now I'm not spoken for, because I'm a white middle aged man.

1886
01:45:17,080 --> 01:45:20,600
No one's no one's interested in my view anymore.

1887
01:45:20,600 --> 01:45:24,840
Yeah, it is bizarre, though, because, I mean, you know, obviously America was built on immigration

1888
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:27,200
and then the UK because of the colonization.

1889
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:32,340
I've always to me, if you want to sum up what the UK is, you look at the opening scene of

1890
01:45:32,340 --> 01:45:34,400
Love Actually, and he's at Heathrow Airport.

1891
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:38,800
And I remember thinking the same thing as like an eight year old boy being there.

1892
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:43,120
It's all cultures and colors and that is what makes up Britain today.

1893
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:44,680
And that's something to be celebrated.

1894
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:48,200
But it's not, you know, like you said, the white people are bad and everyone else is

1895
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:49,200
good.

1896
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:53,160
It's like we're all part of this beautiful tapestry that represents the entire planet.

1897
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:55,160
Well, this is the problem.

1898
01:45:55,160 --> 01:46:00,720
You see, I'm constantly I'm sorry about this, but I'm constantly bombarding that I am 59

1899
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:01,720
years debate.

1900
01:46:01,720 --> 01:46:06,000
So I must be a racist, a homophobe, a transphobe.

1901
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:07,280
No, I don't.

1902
01:46:07,280 --> 01:46:09,520
I have a I have a great philosophy.

1903
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:12,880
I don't care what race, color, creed, gender, sexual orientation you are.

1904
01:46:12,880 --> 01:46:14,880
If you're a dickhead, you're a dickhead.

1905
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:17,720
It's got nothing to do with where you're from.

1906
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:19,600
Yeah, that's the way I look at it.

1907
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:23,180
I've always said you could summarize all the holy books in one phrase.

1908
01:46:23,180 --> 01:46:24,180
Don't be a dick.

1909
01:46:24,180 --> 01:46:25,180
That's it.

1910
01:46:25,180 --> 01:46:26,180
No, I don't.

1911
01:46:26,180 --> 01:46:27,920
I don't subscribe to any religion.

1912
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:32,200
Yeah, I believe in a higher power, but not a specific doctrine.

1913
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:33,200
Absolutely.

1914
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:34,200
Yeah, absolutely.

1915
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:37,840
I had a guy I had a guy on the course yesterday asked for time to play by all means.

1916
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:38,840
Right.

1917
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:39,840
No problem.

1918
01:46:39,840 --> 01:46:42,640
By all means, just because you shout when you finished and you came back in on the course.

1919
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:43,640
Yeah, no problem, mate.

1920
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:44,640
Yeah, but I don't believe in it.

1921
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:45,640
I think it's a lot of rubbish.

1922
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:46,640
All right.

1923
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:54,360
So when he said then, if you've got a God pray, what did you do during that time back

1924
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:55,360
on the forklift?

1925
01:46:55,360 --> 01:46:56,360
I see that.

1926
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,800
That's where I did believe in God.

1927
01:46:58,800 --> 01:46:59,800
So what shifted?

1928
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:02,200
12 hours later, I didn't.

1929
01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:03,200
Really?

1930
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:04,200
Yeah, interesting.

1931
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:08,400
Yeah, because they say there's no atheists in foxholes, but I can see how the converse

1932
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:09,400
would be the same too.

1933
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:10,400
Oh, yeah.

1934
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:13,280
I would brought up a Catholic, an Irish Catholic.

1935
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:15,800
So yeah, very, very indoctrinated religion.

1936
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:16,800
Yeah.

1937
01:47:16,800 --> 01:47:17,800
Yeah.

1938
01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:18,800
I don't talk to God anymore.

1939
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:19,800
He doesn't seem to bother.

1940
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:20,800
So neither am I.

1941
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:21,800
All right.

1942
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:26,560
Well, then the very last thing before we make sure everyone knows where to find you.

1943
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:28,480
What do you do to decompress these days?

1944
01:47:28,480 --> 01:47:29,480
What?

1945
01:47:29,480 --> 01:47:32,760
Oh, well, when I'm not injured, I'm on crutches at the moment.

1946
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:34,440
I like to go running.

1947
01:47:34,440 --> 01:47:36,000
I like to listen to my music.

1948
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:37,720
I listen to an awful lot of music.

1949
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:39,840
I go to an awful lot of concerts.

1950
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:42,840
I go to as many as I can.

1951
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:49,520
I like to socialize with my friends, go out, have a drink, have a laugh, that sort of stuff.

1952
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:53,440
But at the moment, I'm a bit of a grumpy at the moment because I can't run.

1953
01:47:53,440 --> 01:47:57,880
Because the metal hip I had replaced 16 years ago needs replacing again.

1954
01:47:57,880 --> 01:47:59,920
And it's not quite as simple as people think.

1955
01:47:59,920 --> 01:48:03,640
So I'm on crutches at the moment, so I can't do a lot of physical exercise, unfortunately.

1956
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:04,640
But that's the man.

1957
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:05,640
My little dog.

1958
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:10,160
My little dog is a great source of hope, shall we say.

1959
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:13,480
Although he's having a sleep at the moment.

1960
01:48:13,480 --> 01:48:14,480
They're very therapeutic.

1961
01:48:14,480 --> 01:48:16,040
I've got one right outside my door as well.

1962
01:48:16,040 --> 01:48:17,040
Oi, oi.

1963
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:18,040
Oh, and he's not going to come over.

1964
01:48:18,040 --> 01:48:19,040
He's well away.

1965
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:20,040
Lemmy?

1966
01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:21,040
No, he's not going to come over.

1967
01:48:21,040 --> 01:48:22,040
I thought he might come into camera.

1968
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:23,040
He did in one of the interviews.

1969
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:24,040
He came in Salem.

1970
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:25,040
Did you say his name was Lemmy?

1971
01:48:25,040 --> 01:48:26,040
Lemmy after Mo Ahead.

1972
01:48:26,040 --> 01:48:27,040
Mo Ahead.

1973
01:48:27,040 --> 01:48:28,040
Lemmy.

1974
01:48:28,040 --> 01:48:29,040
Lemmy.

1975
01:48:29,040 --> 01:48:30,040
Mo Ahead.

1976
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:31,040
That's his name.

1977
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:32,040
Brilliant.

1978
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:33,040
All right.

1979
01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:35,360
Well, then very last thing.

1980
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:39,360
If people listening want to kind of find you online, reach out to you, et cetera, where

1981
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:40,360
are the best places?

1982
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:42,560
Well, I'm on the only social media.

1983
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:44,320
I'm really on his Facebook.

1984
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:45,800
I don't really do Instagram.

1985
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:46,800
I don't do Twitter.

1986
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:53,280
You know, for many, I certainly don't do TikTok for many reasons.

1987
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:55,240
So I mean, I'm on Facebook.

1988
01:48:55,240 --> 01:48:57,920
I'm on LinkedIn.

1989
01:48:57,920 --> 01:48:59,520
I'm on LinkedIn somewhere.

1990
01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:00,520
Yeah.

1991
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:03,120
But yeah, if anybody wants to contact me or anything like that.

1992
01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:04,120
Yeah.

1993
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:07,680
I mean, if you share this to Facebook, then people could probably, if you wanted to message

1994
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:10,920
me or whatever, could talk to me if they wanted to.

1995
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:11,920
Brilliant.

1996
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:12,920
Well, Meg, I want to say thank you so much.

1997
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:16,880
I mean, there's been so much depth to this conversation.

1998
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:22,360
When people come on and they were at a conflict or a fire or whatever it was, that's just

1999
01:49:22,360 --> 01:49:25,240
a little part of someone's entire journey in life.

2000
01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:29,800
So it's been so powerful listening to your perspective on all the things we've talked

2001
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:30,840
about today.

2002
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,880
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

2003
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:34,880
Behind the Shield podcast today.

2004
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:55,920
No problem at all.