I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast
that is Transcend.
Now for many of you listening, you are probably working the same brutal shifts that I did
for 14 years.
Suffering from sleep deprivation, body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido,
hair loss, etc.
Now when it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy, what I have
seen is a shift from doctors telling us that we were within normal limits, which was definitely
incorrect all the way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left, right
and center.
So I myself wanted to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology
and then offer supplementations without ramming, for example, hormone replacement therapy down
my throat.
Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason
why the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations.
They also have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first
responders through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual.
So my own personal journey so far filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood
drawn and a few days later I'm talking to one of their wellness professionals as they
guide me through my results and the supplementation that they suggest.
In my case specifically, because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago and been
very diligent with my health, my testosterone was actually in a good place.
So I went down the peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology
knowing full well the damage that 14 years of shift work has done.
Now I also want to underline because I think this is very important that each of the therapies
they offer, they will talk about the pros and cons.
So for example, a lot of first responders in shift work, our testosterone will be low,
but sometimes nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own.
So this company is not going to try and push you down a path, especially if it's one that
you can't come back from.
So whether it's libido, brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely
one of the most powerful tools in the toolbox.
So to learn more, go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the
Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling.
This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.
I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and I've used their products ever since.
From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female
responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've
worked for.
Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they
are also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance
project.
We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier.
I ended up buying real ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been
my ride or die through Murph the last few years as well.
One area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous sponsorship spots is their brick
and mortar element.
They were predominantly an online company up till more recently but now they are approaching
100 stores all over the US.
My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts
you see online are applied also in the stores.
So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every purchase that you make but I do want
to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount especially around holiday
times.
But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order or in the stores every
time you make a purchase.
If you want to hear more about 511, who they stand for and who works with them, listen
to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with 511 regional director Will Ayres.
Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show firefighter, podcaster and now author
Jim Bernica.
Now in our first conversation which was episode 488 Jim led us through his battle with cancer
ultimately returning to work.
In the second conversation he discusses the mental health challenges he had after his
diagnosis, his time in the center of excellence, the save a warrior program, the Brothers Helping
Brothers conference in exotic Beaver Creek, his new book overcoming Tuesday and so much
more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for
others to find and this is a free library of well over 900 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So that being said a welcome back onto the show Jim Bernica.
Enjoy.
Well Jim I want to say welcome back to the Behind the Shield podcast.
We sat down almost three years ago now however I saw you late last year in your incredible
Brothers Helping Brothers conference so thank you so much for the invite.
We'll get into obviously what that was like and then we'll talk about 2024 as well but
I want to start just by welcoming you back onto the show.
Well thank you James it's great to be back and I'm glad you had a good time there in
an exotic Beaver Creek Ohio.
It was I had such a tan when I left the Floridians were jealous.
Yes.
All right well very first question today where on planet earth are we finding you?
I'm in that exotic Beaver Creek Ohio.
Where it's you know all four seasons hit in the same week.
So when we spoke last you had led us through I mean so much your journey into the fire
service you know all the the positive you know calls and some of the successes that
you had your cancer diagnosis your journey through there the creation of your podcast
some of the mental health side too and then we concluded around June 2020 yeah around
June 2021 when we went out.
So before we hit record you had talked about kind of where you wanted to pick this up and
I think it's a really powerful perspective.
I had been talking obviously for years and years and years about the impact of sleep
deprivation and to this day I still vehemently believe that anyone who has you know mental
health you know kind of challenges on that side but certainly if it's a medical issue
and cancer that getting them off shift work a known carcinogen is incredibly important.
However I have also talked about a lot of our people that promote or go to days because
they got hurt there's a kind of loss of tribe element too.
So walk me through your on shift work you're kind of coming out of your you know your cancer
treatment at this point walk me through from where we picked up to you know as you said
before we hit record the the pros of seeking you know that 40 hour day and some of the
cons that were very very detrimental for you personally as well.
Sure so it was it was right after we talked I still at that point I was still off work
recovering from the thyroid cancer surgery and I remember being asked to come down to
headquarters and participate in a news story about a peer support team because at that
time you know still just a firefighter paramedic in the street but I was the health and safety
guy for the union and also in charge of the peer support team and so I ended up doing
this new story with the fire chief we did kind of just a labor management thing we're
on the same page and it was during that you know that conversation after we filmed the
TV spot that I just asked the chief straight up like what do you think you know you have
a health and safety lieutenant I know I'm not an officer but I'm certainly qualified
to do that job and the chief said you're absolutely right you know it's I'm not really worried
about rank I'm I want to put the right person in the position and when that lieutenant is
done in a few months like you know you're next and so at that point in June I was kind
of told just give it a few more months and you'll be on 40 hours and I ended up going
back in the street in mid-July and it was believe the beginning of October that chief
reached out and asked if I instead of asking about the health and safety position he said
do you have any interest in being a 40-hour wellness coordinator and I said absolutely
not even really knowing exactly what that meant but I said sure let's let's do it because
I was I was ready to move on and do something different it felt even in a few months that
I came back on the street I got tell you it was really odd like you know here I am going
back into fires wearing all my fire gear doing all that stuff the same stuff that got me
sick to begin with I'm doing it again and I couldn't help but feel like this just isn't
logical this doesn't make sense you know why am I even doing this but you know luckily
I was I was taken off the street and I began at the end of October that wellness coordinator
spot and that was that was definitely different it was a brand new position I got to answer
directly to an assistant chief so I got to skip all these the chain and go directly to
an AC which again was something that has never happened on my department and that that was
good but I also found out that was bad in the long run as well
so well let's walk through that then so there is no disputing at all that sleep is a superpower
and when we're on shift and we come off shift I've never met a person yet that was like
oh you know I stopped a lot better at the station no one has said that so we know that
is healing however it is very very apparent to me that and I think this is one of the
reasons why I think we have some issues with suicides with the officers apart from all
the other compounding elements is up until that point you were in a station you were
with you know an engine or a truck and that was your kind of ride or die men and women
at that point and then you promote and now you're a BC and now you're in an office maybe
still in a station but you're in an office now you promote even higher now you're not
in a station at all and even though you're still wearing the same uniform you don't have
that sense of belonging and I think that can be very very detrimental now it can be navigated
if we're talking about it but if it's ignored that person who you know worked in a busy
house for 15 years and now all of a sudden they're working on staffing in some corner
office it can be you know a very very strong subconscious loss of tribe and you know we
are a tribal species so that's very very kind of detrimental to the human psyche
yeah you know I was still out and about I really took the role of like my role was just
to take care of my members period that's all I cared about that was my my job and I was
given a lot of freedom at least initially to to really do that so I was constantly in
the stations constantly going around I still wanted to have my fingers on a pulse and and
actually the first really thing I did and I think it really actually helped and I would
recommend this anybody who's starting in a wellness job to do something similar is I
conducted a survey for the members so 70 questions I mean a lot it was only is all multiple choice
really besides the very last one which was you know a narrative like tell me what you
really think but it took about 10 or 15 minutes to fill out and I actually was able to take
out like go station to station crew to crew take them out of service for 15 or 20 minutes
have them do the survey I told them it's all anonymous I'm the one that's getting all the
information you know and I'm gonna be able to use this information to try to try to help
you guys out and you know my department is a little over 300 members and we had I was
able to get over 200 before I finally said all right I think we have a good idea of you
know that's a that's a good number of guys and gals to to look at and analyze the data
and it was very clear that my members were struggling they were overworked underappreciated
there's a lot of them that were dealing with anxiety depression sleep was a big factor
like I could tell like that they're struggling that but the thing that that and it was what
I was worried about more than anything is we've had we've had two suicides over the
last what eight or nine years now and when I looked at the suicide question and I looked
at the answer for that it was terrifying and these were again anonymous people I don't
know who they were but there was a good amount of members that were thinking about suicide
whether it's once or every now and then or all the time it was it was terrifying to see
and and those were the ones that were honest with me and again I only got really two-thirds
of the department so with that information it was really easy to make kind of the game
plan and it was it wasn't dictated by the chiefs wasn't dictated by me it was dictated
by the members where I focused you know my time and efforts on and so the probably the
really the first thing that followed that is I was actually able to bring in an outside
speaker which was the first time in my career we've ever done that I brought in Joe Terry
and who is just amazing and she does a really good job of telling her story and her husband's
story who you know he committed suicide but really just more than anything just spells
out PTSD and how this job really affects our brain and really I think for the first time
my members were sitting there looking at this chart and and they all it's like the light
bulb hit all at the same time they're all like shit I've got this you know it was it
was the first time it was obvious to them and and out of that actually a lot of them
asked can we do this and do this with our spouses because they wanted to show I'm not
just an asshole because I'm an asshole I'm an asshole because this job has really changed
the way I think and function and so we did that too and that went over well I think just
doing the spousal stuff I know it saved a couple marriages it was truly effective but
along with that with Joe Terry coming in it's all about follow-up we had right after that
the very next week we started the annual clinician checkup from the neck up which is a brand
new program that we did where we have the clinician come to the firehouse check everybody
out give everybody option it wasn't mandatory but if you wanted to talk you certainly could
and the idea really was not necessarily I didn't really think that a lot of people would
talk to her during that initial setup but what I wanted to do was at least introduce
her to everybody and I thought that there'd be people that would as soon as she left or
the very next day they'd call her up and say hey let's talk or if something happened later
on down the line they would have somebody that would know somebody and they can make
that call and make that connection so I wanted to make it just that more accessible for our
members and and that went extremely well everybody not everybody but for the most part almost
everybody took her up on it and I really think we were heading in the right direction and
I would say things went really well for probably the first six months it was a probably a good
honeymoon experience for that six months so one of the other things that I mentioned sleep
and I actually was able to bring in our friend Allison Brager I didn't bring her in I actually
did a zoom with her and we talked about the importance of sleep and and just you know
suggestions on how to get better sleep and along with that I also had we have two hospital
systems around here and I had gone and made videos with each hospital system at our sleep
center to truly discuss like you know how much it costs what it entails to do you know
a take-home sleep test so because that was a lot of things too is a lot of people you
know needed a CPAP machine had sleep apnea but had never really done anything about it
so I kind of opened up that door for those members as well and that there was a lot of
them that took took that up and are sleeping better today because of that
you talked about the presentation and people realizing that they had PTSD and it's funny
because now seven years later that you know that description that diagnosis kind of jars
a little bit just because now we've got a more nuanced conversation and I love the discussion
on firefighter syndrome which is kind of a newer one but most of all just moral injury
I think that's what most of us you know are actually suffering from and it can be moral
injury because of our organization it could be the cause it could be our relationship
dynamic obviously usually a combination of all of them but I think that this is where
where we need to move now you know we talked about the the stigma you know and it's beautiful
that so many people talk to the council I think that's phenomenal and all you what you
did is you reduce you you eliminated that barrier to entry and you put a clinician in
front of the people and you know this this is this all ties into what I'm about to say
all we've heard so far is we got to break the stigma well the stigma is broken you know
that's beyond the stigma is broken there's some people resistant out there but most people
now like I get it yes first responders also have mental health challenges based on what
we do and how we worked so to me the next step is removing the barrier to entry to you
know the tools that actually work and we'll get into some of the ones that you did but
it could be you know save a warrior or the the center of excellence or equine therapy
or psilocybin or all this massive toolbox that we've got but also it's the post-traumatic
growth conversation that I really want to try and get out there to be that message of
hope because a diagnosis of ptsd is that well it's you know it becomes almost an identity
well it's what I've got you know and guys retire out from it and and you know there's
absolute application for that but I think what we're also missing for a lot of people
that can can go through their trauma and heal is that post-traumatic growth and the other
side of post-traumatic growth is resilience you know is is a better version of yourself
so if then that that message is disseminated that then instills hope the very thing that
the people that are struggling are missing it's not like you're going to be able to live
with this you're going to be able to survive you're going to resist the suicidal ideation
you're going to go through it and then the other side because of your your journey you're
going to be more empathetic and you're going to be a beacon of light and healing for other
people that need that message of hope now too absolutely you know and and I think even
when I was in that position I had already at that point in time dealt with a pretty
good amount of stuff and um so it was it was you know it's kind of you know I have it right
behind me the man in the arena I really love that that you know that speech and you know
I was one of the guys that was that had already been in the shit I've been around for a while
I dove a lot of stuff so um it was easy for me to open up and be vulnerable and because
I did that it allowed others to be vulnerable and open up to and then it was my job just
to play matchmaker with the appropriate resources and and I thought I did really really well
at that job and I would say again everything was going smooth until it wasn't and and
I'm going to go into the story and just just um hold on because it sits all over the place
but there's there's a lot to this but um super significant now and it and it you know I had
to get to this rock bottom here before I could climb out and really and really get to that
post-traumatic growth and it took a long time more than anything time was probably the best
thing I needed but uh it would have been may I believe Cinco de Mayo may 5th of uh 2022
I had I just had gotten home a little bit ago and um my wife got home shortly after
that and almost as soon as she walked in the door I got a text from one of our members
saying um one of our one of our other members um had threatened suicide threatened police
um and is basically out on a run and um this is a absolutely beloved beloved member and
um but uh and and he I basically got sent a text message of the police bolo um in which
it talked about him threatening the police and um being armed and this member was part
of the SWAT team um for our city SWAT medic and uh I realized at that time like this well
obviously this is not a good situation and um but I actually and I and I and my my wife
I know thought I was crazy because I tell her what's going on and then I go out looking
for the guy and um I know she was scared but um I really thought that the only chance that
this guy had to live was if one of us found him and not the police um and so there was
probably about a dozen of us because it was still pretty low key um and we we searched
we went everywhere trying to find and I can't make this shit up he's driving a Ford Bronco
and we're we're trying to find him um it's just you know but we and and we we've searched
all into the evening hours and we come up empty handed and we eventually all I mean
after midnight go home and basically first first sign of daylight we're going to go back
out and try to find him um and early in the morning we ended up they they finally did
um they tracked his his car down and it was in an abandoned church parking lot and um
there were some members that went out there and then I ended up going to the union hall
and that was basically going to be the um I don't know the uh command post for lack of
better terms um and uh while they're you know this again at this point in time they're the
police for obvious reasons are being really cautious this is basically a SWAT situation
so they're taking their time just because of the threats from earlier and um so they're
and because there's woods all around this place and I end up getting a drone out and
try to look for him and there's a there's a a group message about eight of us that have
been really looking for him and and are really um his closer friends and out of that message
one of the members writes um they found him he's dead and um confirmed and I got that
message right when I was pulling into our union hall and I I've done this now I realize
I've done this a couple times to where and I and I think a lot of us have probably done
this in this profession where I I didn't get emotional I immediately switched to more like
a I mean I don't know business um to where I basically said okay what do I have to do
next like there was there was no personal time for me to get emotional to mourn to anything
because I felt like I was the guy that now had to take care of an entire department who
lost yet another member to suicide um I I don't know why I was wired that way but that's
how it went down and it was uh about 11 minutes later I believe that somebody else got in
a text message um feed that was on the scene and said I don't know where you heard this
but this is not accurate and so all of a sudden it was a wait a second is he dead or not and
so everything kind of got put on hold and about an hour later they actually found him
and he was alive barely so they were able to get him to the hospital there and um it
was just kind of chaos but that that again that roller coaster of he's dead oh wait a
second maybe he's not oh no he's not but he's not definitely not out of harm's way you know
he was he ended up going to the ICU he was pretty pretty screwed up I mean been outside
all night and uh you know I was I was left then with a lot of members that were still
uh because this was you know usually peer support peer support is pretty much in the
shadows you know we try to do our best to be low key and this was not that this was
very public not at least not out in like the media or anything like that but it was public
amongst our members everybody knew what was going on and there was there's all sorts of
crazy rumors and everything else and um you know there was people thought that he shot
himself there I mean it was just yeah I mean just a lot of bullshit going around and so
um at the union hall I had a clinician there I had a bunch of peer support there and I
remember reaching out to the district chiefs otherwise known as battalion chief about everywhere
else but the the guys who run the actual district and run the day to day like their crews you
know I I put it out there hey if any members need to talk if they if they're because because
I knew that I was getting messages of people struggling because they really cared about
this guy and I said come on out to the union hall we've got a clinician here we got a team
here like just come on out and uh which I thought was was logical and it wasn't too
long after that that I got a call from the assistant chief that said we're not going
to do that we're not going to send crews out of service and go and go there and I really
felt like something needed to be done and so I I pivoted and I said okay well we're
coming to you then and what I did is I I threw up the bat signal I mean I know you know
dayton we had a good good size peer team but there were so many people that were involved
in this that we were decimated and so I needed help I needed help from the outside and so
I threw up the bat signal and we had a lot of our local jurisdictions come and help us
out with their peers which was was awesome you know it's still it was awesome to see
them all in there in one place and really taking care of us because that's not that's
not norm you know usually we can handle our own stuff but not in this situation and what
I did is very similar to what the IFF and the state peer team did in 2019 after our
mass shooting where we went around and went a couple peers went crew to you know station
to station crew to crew and just told everybody what was going on and just checked in on everybody
and we ended up doing that the next three days and and it was it was a couple it was
really like I I had been just completely like overwhelmed doesn't even really do its services
as as bad as bad off as I was as inundated as I was with things you know I think it was
the second or third morning I couldn't sleep I was still we were still going around going
to the stations the guy was at the hospital but he still was wasn't with it and that was
it took me two or three days before I finally was able to just get everything out and actually
have a moment of to grieve and just all these emotions to let it out and and it was so it
was it was bizarre it was bizarre how it happened I got up I really wasn't sleeping that well
I was I went down to my basement I started working out and it was mid-workout when all
the stuff hit me and when it hit me it hit me James it I made these weird audible sounds
that I couldn't recreate if I tried to the point in which like it woke up my wife above
and she was like what the hell is going on but I finally had that moment where I was
able to get stuff out and then and I told my assistant chief like I'm not going to be
in next week you know just I need I need time I need I need some space to just get back
to some some normalcy and and during that I would say during that time period I got
I got angry I got angry because I had in January I had rewritten the peer support policy and
I had included basically exceptions to where if these certain types to calls and it's and
everybody knows these calls it's pediatrics it's multiple you know mass casualty incidents
I mean certain calls that are just they happen but they're still abnormal and they're still
emotional I had written in there that they would in those type of calls that they would
either be able to see clinician or even go home and that had sat on the chief's desk
and and nothing happened I really thought that that may have prevented this whole thing
if we could have intervened with this individual earlier and he'd had a pretty shitty shifts
the night before as well as I write yes thank you thank you yes the ship before oh my gosh
he oh man so a four car accident with four fatals and he had to write all the run reports
for that and as soon as he finished they heard a fire come in down the street from the hospital
they just left and him and his partner went in and asked to me to grab made a save before
any of the fire apparatus got there and didn't you know was on the medic so didn't have his
gear and made that say but yet got chastised by the district chief you know they got got
in his shit about it and so here this guy's already wrote had to had to look and had to
write these four run reports that just suck it shouldn't be one person that has to do
all that but it was and then make a save how many of us actually get to make a save in
our career and instead of being a hero is chastised for it and you know it was just
it was way too much and the very next day is he ended up leaving shift early and and
that's when all this stuff went on so yeah thank you thank you for adding that just to
add to that as well you've got and this happened to Danny Dwyer you've got these these horrendous
critical incidents and then we talked about organizational betrayal that tribe you do
the very thing that you were trained to do I mean we when I worked on rescues we had
our gear on so we would never have been put in that position I had the ability to pack
up and go in even though I was on the medic unit but you don't so now you got guys in
you know class B uniform going in making a save and then getting chastised and I always
say this if it was law enforcement they'd be given awards and I don't know what it
is about the fucking fire service but the moment of firefighter does the thing that
is humanly correct even though you have to bend protocols because there's nothing written
about you show up with no gear and no pack and instead of supporting them and and you
know commending them and it might be a yeah but while we're talking about this let's
just go over you did this let's make you know we'll try not to do that again however
fucking amazing job Danny you know gets fired and then you have this compounding element
where the very organization that you wear the fucking patch on your shoulder you do
the very thing that we were trained to do from the first day of fire academy and you
get you know your legs cut from under you so that's a very you know the organizational
betrayal is a massive part of the mental health conversation of first responders because this
is our tribe and when your tribe turns their back on you that is devastating to some people
well you kind of foreshadowed everything that's coming and I'll definitely get into that so
I talked to the assistant chief and he said well let's meet and go over this general order
about the peer support stuff behavioral health and let's meet before we go and sit down with
HR and present it and again I told I told him I'm not I'm off I'm not coming in but
he asked me to do that and it was poor enough to wear all right I came in I came in on a
Wednesday that week and I came in and I was I was disheveled I hadn't shaved I came in
and a t-shirt and gym shorts you know I wasn't on the clock or anything like I just coming
in to have that meeting because it was important and and right away I was met by the deputy
chief who who's new question is this the new your form and and and that that set the tone
I mean I I didn't I and I full disclosure I regret a lot of the way I handled things
but I can tell you at this time I was I was angry I was upset and and I kind of let that
stuff out so he was he was wearing his like I would call Miami vice you know you know
at some point when you become a chief an organization you can you can ditch the uniform and just
wear you know your shirt and your your sports jacket and I said so I said is this the new
uniform so great way to start and then we I went into the my boss's assistant chief's
office and that was a that was our only closed the door kind of meeting and we kind of went
at each other and because I really felt like he had let this member down and I think he
he didn't like that I was putting the blame on him and I understand that that wasn't right
that wasn't fair and he ended up telling me that the the district chiefs felt that I was
inundating the department with behavioral health and peer support and it was too much
and I needed to back off which I mean you say I say that now and I just it's so fucking
ridiculous we just had a member try to kill himself a couple days ago but this is I'm
doing too much that's just illogical and we had this heated debate and again I'm you know
I'm a firefighter I'm talking to this assistant chief and I'm talking to him like you really
shouldn't but also I knew with that being said I knew I was also the health and safety
guy for the union so with that with the union I feel like I had some kind of freedom like
I was able to say shit that I probably wouldn't be able to say otherwise but still it didn't
go over well I ended up leaving and I was I was uninvited to the HR meeting which probably
was for the best in reality but I mean we still I mean what we're almost two years from
that meeting and they still haven't done anything they haven't changed that order they haven't
updated at all it was all it was all for naught but I would say that that whole incident was
really the beginning of the downfall and the honeymoon phase was was definitely over and
what I've and then really I started now to fall apart really shortly after that and then
so that that really goes the next part which is in Cleveland the following week.
Let me jump in just for a second because when we get further away from from your brother
firefighter that was in such crisis you said I forget the term you used but he was a beloved
member that's what it was this is I think what we need to really understand when you
have that guy and we've all got him sometimes we've all been them you know salty as fuck
you know always pissed off throwing shit in the morning you know pissed off that the tones
go off whatever it is I always tell people what were they like when you hired him if
they were like that from the beginning then you shouldn't have hired him let's be honest
that was that that slipped through the net that person needed to do some work before they
actually ever test to be a firefighter more often than not these people are phenomenal
human beings they're positive they kept themselves in shape they you know they were excellent
firefighters excellent paramedics or EMTs and then there's this devolution and I think
it's a really important kind of observation to make in this moment you've got a guy that
you know in this case I'm assuming was was beloved so you know was was interacting with
everyone well got to the pinnacle one on the medic side as a SWAT medic so clearly operationally
he was doing a lot of things right I'm assuming his fitness was pretty on point two and now
all of a sudden you've got this crisis so we forget to ask how did you get from A to
B and we just discard all compassion and empathy and go that guy's a piece of shit that girl's
you know she's a fucking waste of space whatever it is versus what happened to Steve, Sandra
whoever like how do we get from A to B and more often than not it's the environment yes
the job we see some horrible stuff and that needs to be handled in a way that we can can
heal from that we can move forward and like I said that post-traumatic growth but the
sleep deprivation the organizational stress all these other things that compound as well
which then impacts our family you know our wives and husbands and children that takes
its toll and and what people don't don't think they understand is that we're throwing ingredients
into a bowl until we get to that perfect storm and that perfect storm can be suicide sometimes
it can even be homicide and then obviously the childhood trauma as well what do we bring
into the job in the first place but unless we look at people who are struggling with
empathy we're never going to fix this and you terminate that so-called you know bad
seed and without going back and go wait a second they used to be phenomenal something
is happening you know then you cast them out and now you find out a year later they took
their own life so I think it's just an important observation before we progress forward that
a lot of these people that you know we see as angry or salty or whatever in the firehouse
what were they like when you got hired with them if they were really great firefighters
and there's been a devolution that is that is the job environment what can we do to fix
that so that we're nurturing our firefighters rather than breaking them down this guy by
the way I mean he is like you said he's a stud I mean he to be a SWAT medic you got
to know your stuff I mean this guy is in shape I mean he's he's literally one of those calendar
guys he's he's on the firefighter calendar like the real one not the chunks of ladders
one that I'm on he's on the real one so he he's he's a specimen and he was wasn't is
but loved by so many people and I'm I'm so thankful that he's still here and you know
so and they kind of continue because his story his story is my story what I realized you
know and and I'd love that he's doing well because I mean that that makes my heart feel
better because I nobody knew for a while you know this you know what's going to happen
with him but he's he's done well he just got promoted actually but a few weeks after
all this I went to Cleveland for our state fire union conference and I really was hopeful
that like I still needed like just a reset I needed a break I needed some distance and
I thought Cleveland was going to be helpful and it was not and and a lot of this stuff
is just timing but so I'm gonna I'm gonna segue from the story to tell another story
and then this is all gonna make sense you know all the time in the world take your time
follow follow me on this so one of the when you're a peer support coordinator you're on
a peer support team you know honesty and trust and confidentiality is everything and if you
reach confidentiality that's that's the end of your team I mean it's it's gonna take a
hit for a decade before anybody will trust it again and we had during all this chaos
we had another member who had an issue and he ended up and we got him help we set him
up and when he but he was in trouble for the stuff and he ended up I think as a last-ditch
effort just trying to throw the peer support team under the bus and say we broke confidentiality
which never happened but what I ended up finding was like you know after all this stuff that
just happened with this other individual and now this guy comes up and he's saying this
and while I was in Cleveland I was I was I was told hey the department is going to
investigate you in the peer support team the union president then says we're going to investigate
you too so that's all that all happened on one day and then on top of that at this point
in time Brandon was at the center of excellence and and when he was like once I got him there
I got to tell you I felt I felt good like okay he's in a safe safe place you know he's
under good care and and everything is going to be you know all right and I got told that
same day that he was leaving and he ended up having to go to the hospital out there
and he was very fed up and just he wanted to come home and and so all of a sudden me
feeling like he was safe and I was I was safe because he was safe that's out the door now
so I had all those like those three things hit me all at once and like I really just
felt like like I was coming apart you know like I I didn't do you know I didn't do anything
wrong all I was trying to do is help but yet now I'm being investigated times two and then
this guy who I fought so hard to get in to that place is now coming home and so that's
in jeopardy and it was it was ultimately it was too much and that night I remember I woke
up and I'm in a hotel room and and that's when and it sounds going to sound fucking
crazy but that's when the voices started that's when I was told or in my head it was hey like
there's a way out your guns and a dresser you know I had you know I was a concealed
carry holder and I made it a point when I traveled to bring my gun and with me because
at FDIC a couple years ago I left it in my truck and my truck got broken into they stole
my gun so I was I just brought it in with me and the next thing you know I got the thing
in my hand and I mean I'm just having this internal debate is the I mean the way to describe
it and I've never had that before and it was fucking terrifying and somehow some way I
was able to to put it down and I didn't sleep the rest of the night and made it through
the next you know morning and I everybody could tell I mean they didn't know it then
but I was I was definitely on and edge and aloof and somehow I made it through the rest
of that conference I think the very the next day I think was the last day and I drove home
and I I text my friend Brian and I text him hey I got something I need to give you and
that James that's all I said and he he fucking knew and he met me like 20 minutes later and
I handed him a bag with the gun in it and I haven't seen it since and I love that guy
he fucking knew I didn't have to even say what it was he knew and and I would say at
that point is when my acting debut started so we're talking I'm in at this point this
is June May or June of 2022 and I would act my ass off for the next few months I would
pretend that I was okay and I was falling apart I couldn't stop those voices I couldn't
sleep every time I try to sleep they'd show up I mean it was it sucked and and I really
like I just oh I was such a hypocrite you know here I was I was the guy that really
parped on everybody like hey reach out ask for help you know just pick up the phone you
know yet when I needed it I really had this just this thought of shame and guilt like
I'm supposed to be the guy that everybody else relies on for assistance what is it gonna
look like if I go and get help like how does what are the optics on that and it really
as silly as it is now and I realized that it held me back and it cost me months and
just inner turmoil that and I was just falling apart and the job it wasn't getting any better
it was it was very term it was a lot turmoil to the point in which they really started
to hamper me with my peer support with my call outs and debating on you know because
again I told you a second ago confidentiality is everything and next thing I know I'm being
told if you need to send a peer supporter to a station you need to let this person know
that's gonna let this person know that's gonna let this person know that's then gonna let
you know instead of you just doing it like why do you have to let all these people know
that don't need to know that when that stuff happens that's when people start stop reaching
out because they don't again it's supposed to be quiet and I really questioned that and
I there was there was two occasions with my assistant chief that I I said if we can't
work this out I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to get the union involved we're gonna
well and then we'll do it that way and and both those times he told me well that's a
good way for you to end up back on the street so basically I mean it's a fucking threat
you know if you get the union involved that's fine but we're kicking you back out to the
street so all this good that you're doing doesn't fucking matter like you'll go out
and just be you know finish your career as a firefighter medic and guess what that's
what happened you know in the midst of everything and and I not just yeah you know I want to
act like a like I got this big ego but I know that I was doing good things for the apartment
like there was there was tangible items that were happening there was lots of people that
were getting help that didn't have before people were sleeping better like I was you
know it was a good thing and it was despite all that it was no no you're you're too much
of a headache to deal with you're gonna go back out on the street and and I would say
and I think and you know this you've talked to so many guys that are administrative like
I think when you go there like you end up a lot of times you sell your soul you you
you want you you have good intentions when you when you start there but for whatever
reason you get you know it's it gets sucked out of you and and you become a company man
and you just you basically a P your your your job is then really to appease your bosses
and HR and I didn't go down there and that I that never happened to me I stayed me the
whole time and which is kind of combative like none of this stuff should should have
been a surprise to anybody you know like I've always been combative I've always had a mouth
I've always stood up for what's right that has always been there but I'll tell you they
when they they kicked me out they said you're going back out on the street that that hit
me hard like that was the last straw that you know that had become that job had become
my purpose and I knew I was good at it and I knew what I was doing and to just take it
away on a whim like it hurt me to my bones like I didn't know I just didn't understand
it and I remember I think it was maybe I had about two weeks notice before I ended up back
in the district and I remember like three days into that two weeks I had a friend of
mine come in my office and we talked and I've got this and I don't know if I've ever shown
it to you or not but I have this tremendous tattoo on my leg and it is it is the IFF Memorial
so it's based off of that and it has several my dating guys and a couple other guys that
I've been friends with that have died in line of duty death and I and I got that tattoo
when I was off with my cancer when I was off you know doing the surgery or whatever and
this guy to his credit he was the first one he was really the only one that saw through
all my shit and he he told me he said I have a feeling we're going to add your name to
your leg and that fucked me up when he said that I lost my shit I just I'm just just crying
just because he was the first one that saw through the facade that I was I had been caring
for months he was the first one that that saw me and called me out on it and I remember
leaving that day I called the captain at the training center which is where I was at and
I said I'm leaving and I'm not coming back and yeah fast forward a week and a half later
and it was fine I finally had enough and I finally picked this thing up and called the
center of excellence and I've made that phone call five or six times beforehand for other
people but making it for myself fuck man that sucked and I remember I called Friday August
19th where my wife and I were supposed to go to Chris Stapleton that night never made
it and the very next day I mean lunchtime I'm on a plane and I'm out there and I'm
I'm in Maryland center of excellence and and I thought I gotta tell you I thought with
everything I knew like I'm gonna be in and out of this place and a record time I'm gonna
be here for two weeks and be back home and and be good and no it was it was 40 days 40
days which I mean the average day there is 35 so it was a little bit longer than that
but I came home and I ended up doing a stint a 90-day stint on restricted duty they the
department did me solid actually and they put me at radio repair which was out of sight
out of mind in the middle of like the cities like where they have all their street maintenance
and all that so it was wasn't nothing we were the only fire department thing there and it
was it was peaceful and I was able to just continue to work because I continued like
I came home and did intensive outpatient program and still did multiple counseling stuff I
mean it was it was a lot for a long time and I just felt like I needed more time to just
really work through everything and and I think the department the fire department was willing
to work with me HR on the other hand was not and that was really I kind of feel like that
was probably a self-inflicted wound again I told you earlier I was I've been very outspoken
I've been in the newspapers talking shit about the city about how they treated us in there
and our whenever we're diagnosed with cancer and they fight us like so I'm sure when my
name came across HR they were like fuck this guy we're not going to help him and and they
didn't and so I wasn't ready to go back on the street and so I kind of felt like I my
hand was forced and so I ended up putting in for a disability retirement and that was
in January of 2023 and I my last day I clocked in and clocked out was January 11th and it
wasn't till June 21st that I finally got the notice about my retirement and so I burned
up all the time I had which you know was a little but not enough like I basically got
to mid-May so I ended up going about a month without any paycheck so that was that was
definitely a stressful time because just I didn't know I didn't know what my future held
I didn't know this retirement was going to happen or if it was going to fall through
I just I didn't know and you know but luckily it all worked out as far as I got I got my
pension but even you know to that time like I was it sounds weird but I was I was petrified
really of that chief that assistant chief it was terrified of him and he's and he's
not just just because of what he could could do and for whatever reason I thought in my
mind that he could fuck with the pension he could fuck with my paycheck like he could
do something and so I just kind of shut my mouth and just stayed the course until that
was all finalized and done and once that was done you know now now I feel like I can talk
about it openly and I could talk about you know and I can I feel comfortable you know
sitting down and writing a book about it which I know we'll talk about but you know that's
a lot I know I went on a tangent I'm sure you got 17 questions to ask me I'm gonna take
a break so I can take a sip of coffee and let you go for once yeah no well I mean this
this is your podcast as well as tell people you know I try and restrict how much I say
and some are more conversational and others but you know when you're leading us through
the story I've got you know nothing to interject with at least however going back to you feeling
unable to ask for help yourself that's a great analogy for I think why first responders struggle
to ask for help because when people push three numbers on a telephone we're the ones that
come to help we're not supposed to ask for help we're the helpers and then you add you
know into the suicide conversation this is really heartbreaking but it's true you've
got people who are at crisis and you know I've talked about this many many times that
voice that convinces that individual because the brain is miswired it is broken there's
no other way to say it a healthy brain wants to thrive wants to be here to protect their
family so that miswired brain through all the compounding elements are convincing the
person that they are a burden to their family that the world would be better off without
them complete fallacy complete myth but that's what they believe that's a true reality at
that point but then you factor in that they have already subscribed to a profession where
they will lay down their life for a stranger well that I think is why we see even more
suicide in military first responders is because there's very few professions where you say
yeah I'll go into that building and go and try and get that kid and I might die or I'll
go into a firefight or I'll run into the school and the school shooters there whatever it
is it's a very unique set of professions that have already kind of come to terms with their
own death when they when they join it so those I think are kind of powerful observations is
that you know the the resistance to asking for help is because we are the helpers and
then if you want to factor in being a man as well which is you know again I'm not trying
to be too kind of black and white but arguably women are at least able to express emotion
culturally more than men so now you've got the man as the help of the fixer which is
again bullshit we're we're you know soft and and hard you know yin and yang but that compounds
it even further and then just to add another layer and I'll put the mic back to you another
thing that I've seen that is also a truth is we have to be careful not to help too early
when we ourselves are going through a healing journey if you jump on the helping which initially
can be cathartic it can be very there's a pervasive kind of back end where you're accumulating
that trauma and I saw it with bull my friend you know he's helping and helping and helping
which in a way is almost filling his own void until all of a sudden now you're deep in a
well and you didn't even realize it snuck up on you yeah I think being in that position
of the wellness coordinator peer support coordinator whatever it may be I definitely realized that
whatever is going on with whatever member I was helping I was hitching on to them and
going for the ride and they did well I did well and if they did bad you know I went for
that ride with them and I suffer too and man that the whole boundaries that that is a thing
that I really sucked at and I've gotten a lot better at but I was I was invested and
it was you know it's one thing when you're when you're doing the job and you're helping
these strangers you don't there's not that connection yes you want to do the right thing
but having that personal connection actually really complicates it because you just you
you care and you're there for that ride good or bad you know but one I know one thing I
want to touch on and I think this is important and I don't think it's talked about enough
and it's just this word it's just forgiveness forgiveness I was able to sit down with the
assistant chief and to his credit he met me and and I wouldn't been surprised if he said
like no I'm not going to beat him or I'm not going to beat him alone like because it was
it was hostile and but he we met for lunch and I asked him and we sat down I said I like
to go and just talk and if you could just let me talk and just go through everything
I said that would be great and then I'll tell you when I'm done I'll shut up and let you
talk and he said that's fine go for it and I went I I went and I wasn't I didn't come
at him with anger I was I was emotional but I really just shared my perspective into what
and why and how and all that kind of stuff and he took it he took it like a champ he
really did and at the end and I didn't James I didn't I didn't go into their needingness
what I what I needed was for me to forgive him if he if he apologized if he forgave me
then like that was a bonus but that's not what I needed what I needed was just for me
to say I'm sorry I didn't handle things the way I should have either I fucked up I'm not
innocent and all this stuff I have regrets and but but he when it was his turn he he
owned it he apologized and and I got an understanding of where he was at and and since that day
we've been good we've been good and um and a similar thing happened with one of the district
chiefs too that the one that ultimately said we're not coming to the union hall you and
made me pivot and made and and that calls me to end a date everybody with peer support
so I got to do my action interview with him and that was another close the door and a
little fest of this airing of the grievances but we walked away with the hug and and said
we love each other and and so I I got you know it took a while and it sucked I did get
some closure and I and I left I left with some dignity which I didn't think was going
to be possible but forgiveness was I think a big part of helping me move on and I'm not
saying them apologizing to me I'm saying me apologizing to them that's that was a key
factor and actually getting some closure and moving the hell on I know in the past you've
done save a warrior you've done the center of excellence and I touched on earlier this
is immense toolbox that actually is available to us it's sad because you know the way it's
presented in EAP is right you've got you know talk therapy and meds which one do you want
you want both okay but actually you've got everything from canine therapy and equine
therapy through to diving and surfing and hiking all the way through to psilocybin ibogaine
you know MDMA led therapy and everything in between so it's a massive you know toolbox
if you allow yourself to actually explore it and you know sadly because of our ridiculous
prohibition laws you might have to go to another country to actually heal from the things you
did serving this one but that aside you know there's so much hope in that toolbox there
really is what were the when you look back now what were the things that you unpacked
and what were the tools that allowed you to go through that crucible and as we talked
about earlier grow from it that's that's a great question and and I think there's a lot
of people that that feel like there's some magical thing there's like one thing that
if I do this I'm going to be healed and be better and that's not the way it worked for
me I would say everything that you discussed to save a warrior got the going to Center
of Excellence for 40 days the EMDR I did the stellate ganglion block you know talk therapy
meds I mean everything all this stuff I would say each one of those contributed a little
bit it was a it was a piece of the puzzle there wasn't one big thing that was bigger
than the other they all helped out and little ways and added up and helping ultimately with
my recovery and post-traumatic growth wasn't it wasn't one thing they all they all contributed
and it was it was just me being pretty damn assertive and continuing to like realizing
that I'm not quite there I'm still off and and continuing to look for those resources
and actually following through with them you know and so and I feel like I mean that's
in a weird way that's that's one of the nice things is you know I'm now on the state peer
support team and I think what I can do probably better than most of the other people on there
is simply say like from experience well this is what this place is like this is what this
place does and just having like actual firsthand knowledge I'm I think really good at putting
somebody with the appropriate resources because that's all we do as peer support we listen
we listen we listen we listen and then we try to play matchmaker with the appropriate
resource and knowing that we may only get one chance to get this right so so making
sure you know your resources and and know that it's appropriate is key because if you
if you screw up and they have a bad experience like you may not get a second chance so that's
why it's paramount to really know those resources and unfortunately fortunately I know those
resources
What about the family?
One thing I hear a lot is you know people will go away to some sort of retreat and they
themselves will have some sort of an awakening but then they come back walk through a door
and tell their wife or husband hey I'm a much better person now but their life hasn't changed
nothing has no tools or or guidance has been given to the family you know the the parents
the children etc so with this lens now what do we need to do as far as a family this one
you know firefighter police officer whatever it is has been struggling obviously it's been
a downward spiral they weren't just amazing and then fell down a hole so that's going
to have a ripple effect on the family dynamic as well so what are you seeing needs to happen
to support the family members as well?
Well you bring up a great point and and they actually I remember they discussed that to
center of excellence and they discussed that I save a warrior too you know but center of
excellence I think I did something that's crazy they tell you in the intro meaning you
have there that you end up doing essentially five years of talk therapy in your stay there
because it's every day multiple hours a day when typically you know you talk to a therapist
maybe one hour a week so you know basically one one week at the center of excellence is
a year something like that but you're right I did all I had all this time all this these
resources to work through but my wife didn't have the same so we did have a weekly one
hour marriage counseling there when I was you know virtually but that that wasn't really
enough and I came home and I had again all this this knowledge and and my wife didn't
really get much of that now we followed up and we continued counseling and still continue
counseling now and the first when I when I went to the center of excellence one of the
things I was open up to was religion and that was something that I had been grew up Catholic
and and hadn't been practicing for a long time and I finally got kind of back in that
groove and so we went to a Christian counselor and I and I noticed right away like I can't
be myself I can't say stuff like shit fuck ass bitch you know whatever I can't I can't
be me with him so that was pretty short and we ended up switching to somebody in which
I can be myself and that's that's been good but you're right like they're they don't the
wives spouses they're not really brought up to speed with this stuff and that's why I
said it's so important to to really when you have your rookie orientation to bring your
spouses there and actually have them gain an understanding from the start of this is
what the job entails and this is what could happen and you are you know the ones on a
home front that can point stuff out before anybody else and get them help you know it's
one of the reasons why I created a QR code for our peer support website and made a magnet
out of it and sent it physically to everybody's homes so their spouses could use it and have
it and it was just there so it's it's huge but it's it's very disparate this this appropriate
I came to say it but and that's why you know I should say too this would be a good time
to plug the bridge retreat I'm not sure if you're familiar with that but I'm not a spawners
bridge first responders bridge it's in Columbus and it's it's it's ran by a guy named Mickey
Inger who would be great on the show actually a retired police officer from Westerville
which is a suburb of Columbus but he has put on I think they're up to 10 or 11 shows now
where every three or four months they they get together in Columbus for a three day retreat
and it's all police it's all fire and you bring your spouses everything is paid for
your hotel room the food everything and you just got to get just got to get there but
it's a amazing way of letting your spouses know this is what we deal with with our job
and this is how it can affect us at home and so it's a lot of they do a lot of lecturing
they have Pat Kenny is you know one of the speakers there's there's several different
ones that I think you've had on your show but they also break people away and split
them up as spouses and police and fire and then do our own little breakout sessions but
having having things like that I think could really help with our relationships so you
had first responders bridge is something to check out and you just got to get there that's
it everything else is taken care of brilliant so but into that but having having having
my wife like really just bringing her around and making her aware I think has been been
huge you know because I think she understood that the thing is with her is that we knew
each other when we were kids so she she is fully aware of how I was compared to how I
am now she has seen that that whole thing kind of transfer and it wasn't I think anything
all at once it was just over the years you know the job definitely changed me you know
but but I think having her understand that I'm not trying to be an asshole like that's
not my goal is to be a dick to you but like that's just how I'm wired now as much as I'd
rather not be but if we didn't start if we didn't go to all these places and do all this
work she wouldn't be here with me she would have high tailed a long time ago you know
but I'm blessed that she has been patient and she has worked with me I mean it I think
back James to I mean I called on a Friday and I was gone on a Saturday for 40 days and
she had to run around and take care of the two kids and still work and maintain the house
and and I know friends and family shipped in and helped out but like I really put her
in a shitty spot and and she could have held that against me and she but she didn't well
I mean firstly the the resources for the family from the front door moving forward I think
are imperative but this is also why I fight so hard for the 24 72 to be a national standard
because if you add two equal and opposing elements you have the improved rest of the
first responder so now their mental health is is a lot more nurtured their physical health
and not a lot more likely to or a lot less likely excuse me to get hurt you know back
injuries etc you know you've got less weight gain less problems with hormones you know
all the things you've got a better human being on one side and every fourth day they're now
actually home an extra 24 hours so dad mom is physically present more and then if you
do this properly it solves the recruitment crisis because people want to work in this
job because now we've set up an environment for our responders to thrive rather than destroy
them now you know you're fully fully staffed mandatory will be once in a blue moon but
over apart from that when you say you're going to come home you actually come home so whether
it's the cancer and mental health side that we know sleep deprivation causes is a massive
amplifier of ill health mentally and physically but also you know the family dynamic you're
fixing all of the things on top of the fact that now as I've said on many of these episodes
with my guests that have done this and shown it there is a massive financial savings because
if you think about all these steps that you had to go through when you're off someone's
covering your spot that's time and a half of overtime there's the medical disability
that was paid out you know what I mean there's there's all these back-end payments and it's
insanity and I was actually just talking to Tulsi Gabbard about this I interviewed her
on Sunday and it was the same nationally the false economy of our of our health care system
or disease management system you know we don't invest to where it encourages people to be
healthier it's quite the opposite you know so that courageous leadership to actually
put more rest and recovery into the first responders work week is what we need to see
next and that will massively affect everything including our relationships and I've got a
friend I'm thinking of specifically who I won't name who was an absolute fucking dynamo
like one of those guys that you know just bouncing off the walls the whole time always
happy always positive madly in love with this girl that he met then they have a kid madly
in love with his child and I've watched him just go down the drain and now you know the
marriage is basically over from what I understand like he's clawing you know mentally himself
and he was this person but it was the job in this particular department 56 hour work
weeks no Kelly days mandatory overtime all the time so now you're talking about 80 hours
a week so this is why I'm so passionate is no matter what the conversation we're having
one of the massive things that we need to change is the way that we work our first responders
because the result otherwise is as you talked about you know a SWAT medic running through
the the woods almost dying death by cop or you know yourself almost dying from from cancer
and then suicide ideation these are arguably some of the most resilient men and women in
our communities that stand on that diamond on the drill ground day one why is this happening
year 10 year 12 year 15 etc so unless we actually finally say enough is enough and
we proactively invest in our people it's only going to get worse and worse and worse but
the big you know what makes me excited is that I think that we're at an absolute critical
mass because if the whole nation is struggling to recruit then we're struggling to recruit
but we're kind of barely ish what's happening five years from now now we're behind now you're
actually going to see fire departments literally not be able to exist in the in cities and
counties or which is happening in Florida you actually switch to 2472 and now people
start lining up outside your your department again because they're like oh they actually
they actually seem to want to fix this they care about their people and this is what I've
seen from Boynton Beach city of Gainesville Pasco County here is that they were like the
moment we announced that we were moving to it we had lines out the door again so in addition
to all the things that we talked about which are very reactive the proactive side which
includes peer support and everything else is that we have to advocate nationally for
a standardized work week and the 2472 to me is the I wouldn't say the gold standard because
it's still two hours more than the civilian standard and the corporate space is just showing
now that a four-day work week is equally as productive in Google and some of these more
progressive corporations but at least for now the 42 the 2472 to give our first responders
an environment for them to actually thrive at work and then to have quality time with
their family when they come home.
Well I think what you need to do is keep doing this keep talking about it because it is it
is finally happening I've got a department about 45 minutes away from me that started
it and I'm hoping that more people follow suit as well so it's not just in Florida even
in Ohio we got somebody doing it and I hope it becomes a norm but it's it's people like
you that keep talking about it and it just makes sense this shouldn't this shouldn't
be that hard of a discussion you know but that is to really truly have better work life
balance that's what we need and by the way I don't know if you've realized this or not
I realized the key to work life balance is retiring that's it that's like really in order
to have it you need to retire and stop doing and then then you can do kind of whatever
you want at your speed.
Yeah but I mean the next best thing is to at least give more time you know what I mean
I think because I agree I mean let's not let's not turn it into fairy tales someone has to
be awake for 24 hours to watch over our city or county while everyone sleeps and that's
what we signed up to do but you know there is a middle ground where we can give the you
know the more more time off and it's like it's not even more we just we never we never
adapted to the transition to EMS and fire we never adapted to the 911 abuse that we
see today you know the reliance on first responders for absolutely everything we never adapted
to the terminations from vaccination requirements you know and the voids that those left I mean
all these things have put more and more work on the shoulders of the men and women in uniform
so it is time now for us to invest in our people and we will I mean there's there is
no downside the only downside literally no matter how you look at it and if you think
there's a downside you're probably telling yourself a myth because every time someone
says oh yeah but it's because they're not actually thinking it through properly oh we're
going to lose money no you're not you know when you went to days they didn't cut your
salary they just adjusted your hourly rate it's the same thing but the only downside
is it requires courage of leadership it requires someone who's not going to look like a rock
star that budget year but they're going to be investing and I love this phrase you know
planting the tree under the shade of which they'll never know that is the kind of courageous
leadership that we need to advocate for a generation that maybe you would have retired
out by that point yeah no you're right on and like I said you need to keep waving this
flag because it is happening it is it is making a change and my hope is you know a decade
from now you can take a step back and just have a nice little deep breath and just realize
wow I helped really you know implement this change I was I was talking about this when
nobody else would and finally it has changed because of that so many lives are better because
of it that's coming for you I don't know when exactly but I hope that you have you know
that that you're going to have a moment where you can finally just go I did good yeah I
mean I want to see mate I've had the phone calls yesterday I've had emails I had messages
it's you know it's it's happening the interest is getting there and then the thing is when
you when you actually dive in and you just take 10 minutes to really listen to it you
know and again all of us are at fault like I believe that I worked one day on two days
off until one day I went wait a second a day in the rest of the world isn't 24 hours is
eight hours with a one hour lunch nine hour day so we worked three hours squished together
of which the second day our work is from eight midnight to eight so that's not a day off
you work eight hours a day so actually it's three days on one day off is what you actually
get it's not 10 days a month it's 30 days a month so that's the thing is when we have
the humility to take a step back and go I'm gonna question what I've always believed that's
when it starts all making sense and then when you see when you get your mind away from currency
being dollars and cents and actually currency is time with your loved ones and your own
physical mental health again that reframes it and then the unions are like oh we're just
going to chase another dollar and you actually understand it and you get together and go
no we're not going to chase another dollar this time we're gonna we're gonna pursue this
24 72 that is the superpower that is really the most valuable currency you can you can
pursue.
This this whole this this career is all about the long game and it's I think increasingly
harder and harder to have a career in which you make it till the end and actually enjoy
your retirement because of just all the different exposures that one gets on just a daily shift
I mean all those just add up and if we're able to reduce those then I think it would
it would make a significant long-term impact on us and not just us but our families so
what's the point of doing all this stuff for 25 30 years so you can enjoy retirement for
all five years but I don't I don't get that it doesn't make any sense to me like why do
that so if you're able to get through the career and be healthy and enjoy that retirement
and be healthy that's that should be everybody's goal yeah and this is what you're what you're
talking about is is would be a huge component of that because it's all about whenever I
go out and I talk it's it's all about reducing everything is comes down to reducing your
exposure whether it's to carcinogens whether it's to you know bad calls like a you know
I bet you were the same way like when you started early on and it was something gruesome
even if you didn't have to see it you went and saw it like I want to check that out that
guy you know cut a cope in his throat I want to see it and at some point you probably just
like me were like I'm good like if I don't have to be the medic that calls it like if
you're that guy then you have to see that it is what it is but like I stopped unnecessarily
introducing myself to trauma it's all about reducing your exposures yeah hundred percent
I talked about this in my first book we had a poor little girl decapitated in a car crash
and the engine was there first and they put a blanket over her head and that image you
know is still in my mind you know the little legs and everything normal but the flat you
know just above the neck versus where her skull should have been but I didn't lift it
up and look it you know I've been on and actually not that long probably three years by that
point but I was a little bit older as a firefighter and we were supposed to go back later to do
body retrieval because she was you know entrapped in the back as well and my captain and engineer
DFO'd me and my firefighter partner I said just stay here said you know we're about to
retire you don't need to see you know you're both I was a parent at the time of a child
of a similar age because you don't need to see this you're not saving a life we're just
removing a body and they ordered us to stay and I just remember being you know there's
a part of us that were like of course we'd be fine and we would have been fine but I
was so you know humbled by the fact that they thought about our exposures like you said
and then later on there was many times a medic where I just told everyone let's just wait
there I'll go you know call it and I did and I was the only one that saw that particular
horrible thing so I got to at least pay it forward but I've made this observation on
here that there's no medal for seeing the most stuff you know and it is it is a young
man and woman thing like oh I can take it I can take it well you can congratulations
what do you win nightmares exactly exactly flashbacks you know yes yeah yeah yeah you're
gonna see enough horrible stuff where you do need to be there you don't need to add
to it so well I want to I want to shift to another incredible proactive incentive and
that is the Brothers Helping Brothers Conference we discussed it because I think you'd started
it when we did the first conversation if I'm not mistaken but last year I was honored to
actually be part of it so walk me through you know the the growth of that and then I'd
love to just talk about some of the amazing speakers that we had the year I was there
sure absolutely so this all started out with my buddy Nick Maggato who is the co-executive
director from Brothers Helping Brothers and Brothers Helping Brothers is a nonprofit that
assist rural departments with equipment giving them grants to buy stuff that they wouldn't
really normally be able to buy just essential tools that they just don't even have really
the budget to have so Nick really does a great job of working with different vendors and
trying to take care of these departments and give them what they need to really do the
job and you know one of the other things that he has done as part of the nonprofits mission
statement is doing education as well so he approached me about seven years ago actually
and he had he was a local firefighter and he had he knew that I was involved in a firefighter
cancer world so we ended up having lunch and he pitched this conference to me and asked
if I would talk about it and I said of course yeah absolutely and but he was and doing so
he was also telling me about some of the other people that he planned on asking and I think
that was his first introduction in the world of like where he thought that everybody was
all on the same page and everybody would get along and we're all trying to do the same
thing and I had to break the bad news to him that said you can't have that person with
this person or that person and this person etc etc because there was like there there's
animosity amongst the firefighter cancer world as silly as that sounds so he had no idea
and I had to kind of break it down to him and before you know it I basically ended up
putting together the lineup regarding the firefighter cancer stuff and and his idea
was back then seven years ago he said we want to do I want to do a firefighter cancer conference
but I want to have mental health added to that and really just stick it down everybody's
throats like they came here for the cancer stuff but we're going to throw mental health
on them too and that was you know seven years ago it was still a little taboo it's certainly
not what it is now but I was like sure whatever and at that time I really didn't know a lot
about mental health I think being involved in this conference is really what kind of
started to just shape me regarding all that stuff and so you know this coming year you
were you were at the sixth annual conference and really the the conference is different
than I think a lot of conferences we know we can't compete with the FDIC sort of the
firehouses so we try to be the alternative and you know when you go to FDIC it's a great
conference but it is really expensive it's really expensive to attend and it's expensive
for the hotels I mean hotel rooms 300 bucks and I mean it is it is something in which
your fire department usually ends up paying for you to go you know it's part of the budget
and that's why a lot of people you know 30,000 people get to go we wanted to do a conference
in which you could still have that same quality of speakers but it's affordable to where the
individual can pay for it they can come out of their own pocket and pay for it instead
of having to rely on their department because a lot of these you know especially the skin
the smaller departments they don't have that budget so for three days at our conference
it's 75 bucks and we're going to feed you and we're gonna have a hell of a lineup and
I think the the reason we're able to do that is Nick and I don't get paid for it at all
like it's really more than anything it's the vendors that end up paying for all the speakers
and getting them there and the travel and the hotels and all that kind of stuff it's
really the the vendors that do the bulk of paying for it and because we don't take payment
it allows us to make this affordable and you know along with that I think Nick and I are
both fun like we we don't we're not rigid you know we're we're he always I remember
the second year we did this I wanted to be serious and I told him let's wear suits and
let's let's be serious because for whatever reason I wanted to compete and then I realized
really after the fact that I hate wearing a suit I mean I already knew I hated wearing
a suit but I just realized like why compete when we could just be different and that's
really when we started being silly and calling it exotic Beaver Creek you know and and wearing
either Hawaiian shirts or I mean last year our theme was Hollywood and this coming year
our theme is going to be pro wrestling you know so again like we're going to cover some
really serious shit it's in that room is deep and it is powerful but yet at the same time
it's um it's fun it's it's just it's very it's I don't know how we created it but I'd
love it and it's something I look forward to every year doing and it's for me it's really
become a great way also just to hang out with a lot of my friends and and and sucker people
in the coming that would never ever come to Beaver Creek Ohio to begin with like you
that it was it was phenomenal and there's one there's a couple of conferences I really
love the one the Orlando fire conference is great because I'm drawn to the ones where
it's just about classes and training and of course there'll be some vendors around and
you know that they have some good products and obviously they're supporting it but like
Orlando there have been some great classes I've taken this means phenomenal hands-on
training like VES and some of these other ones and it's it's hard like they're their
classes are rigorous like you will you will be tested in those the Rosencrantz Florian
Symposium when it was going when I went one year in San Antonio that was absolutely phenomenal
as well and then there's yours and then I'm saying this because I mean hand on my heart
it was it was incredible and listening to you know firstly seeing that room of people
and these brothers helping brothers obviously male and female firefighters you know from
all all backgrounds were there but you know the the spectrum of speakers that you had
you know talking about PFAS and cancer but also talking about the mental health side
and listening to Ben Vernon whose presentation now is mind-blowing and then Brendan McDonald
you know and then and then sitting down with them you know and then for me personally getting
to interview Raoul and Jeff from Orlando that had never even met each other before but Jeff
is was the creator of their peer support which by the way the city of Orlando doesn't support
to this day even though they go around the nation helping other departments and then
Raoul was one of the SWAT guys that ended up killing the the pulse shooter and so their
perspective from two very very different lenses on that event was phenomenal but the whole
thing was when you walk through the door you learn something and what I dislike about some
of these other conferences is it's a trade show with some training on the side and for
me and I know we talked about this before like if I walk into a trade show and then
they're selling helmets and I'm like oh wow that's so progressive that's what we wore
fucking hundred years ago like it's you know there's nothing really mind-blowing about
a lot of the the evolution and the really progressive stuff no one's gonna buy because
of the bullshit you know narcissism that we have in our profession too so if you remove
the trade show side the thing of value to the actual firefighter is the classes and
the hands-on training and so that's what I thought was was phenomenal and whatever your
background whether you're from FDNY or a volunteer department it was completely pertinent to
everyone that was in the room.
Yeah thank you you know we you know every year we Nick and I will hang out and enjoy
the weekend and kind of bask in our glory but then like Monday Tuesday the following
week it's we're back to and then going how are we gonna top this shit and start start
putting it together and it's it's worked I mean we've done it now this is gonna be our
seventh time and we've been able to I think get anybody and everybody like you know I
think we've done a good enough job to wear these speakers talk to other speakers and
they say hey yeah this is legit I mean these guys are gonna take care of you you know it
sounds it sounds a little crazy but like check it out for sure and it's it's worked well
and it's and it started to I think get a nice following and and we just have fun with it
I mean even our website like Nick told me he said hey I was just looking at names and
you know domain names and he said exotic beaver creek dot com is available and I'm like fucking
buy it yes and so that so you could go to exotic beaver creek dot com it's not a porn
site even though it kind of sounds like one and that's where our lineup is and all that
stuff so I mean that's just it's just fun I mean that's that's it we've got I mean gosh
I mean it's pro wrestling thing this year and Nick and I have I mean we literally have
a year just to use our imagination to come up with like stupid ass shit you know and
and to have fun but at the same time we know like we're we're going to like make a difference
in somebody like that room I know I know for a fact we've saved people's lives in that
room I know I've been told that we've saved people's marriages in that room so it is it's
a very intimate just powerful thing powerful and I'm blessed to be to be part of it there
was a couple years where you know we did and I was like how this is my last one and then
I'd get suckered back into doing it and I've I've this at this point I've stopped fighting
I just like yeah okay we're going to do this and it's just part of it and it's it's kind
of really especially now that I'm retired it's it's become you know one of my new purposes
it's one of the things that keeps me motivated and and keeps me busy up until you know the
actual event so and then I could do it all over again so it's it's a it's a good thing
for a lot of people I think absolutely I 100% agree so let's tell everyone who to expect
in 2024 so they can start looking to sign up this year okay yeah absolutely so the first
day which is October 16th so it's October 16th through 18th we're gonna have a deputy
chief of safety frankly from FDNY and he's gonna be the keynote he's he's been at the
conference a couple times but he's never really kicked it off and so he's gonna really I think
put everything in perspective I mean he does a great job of that he's got the the book
the cornerstones of leadership and I think he's going to really talk about leadership
and health and safety and how and the guy is so approachable I mean he's FDNY but he
also gets it he also runs for a volunteer department so he sees all the perspectives
so he is super approachable and even though he's works for the largest fire department
in the world he's so humble so he's he's just great for that we also have again and this
is we can we can make up our own rules which is which is lovely so we're actually going
to have a quine therapy at the conference so Tim Spradlin who's ex-military assistant
fire chief also was police officer does a lot of stuff to save a warrior his farm is
five minutes from where we're going to have this thing set up so he's going to bring the
horses down and we're going to do an intro to equine therapy which I don't know any other
conference that has ever done that but we're going to do that we're also going to have
one of my favorite clinicians Allison Feening talk Joe Elliott from Cincinnati will talk
about his therapy dog that he has and how he's integrated that within the Cincinnati
fire department let's see what else what else what else the second day I think you've had
him on the episode Michael Segru is going to be there and he's going to talk about organizational
betrayal and so he's a police officer which is you know different we've had Raul but that's
really kind of been it but he has such a great message that and he was so helpful for me
just going through all my stuff he's somebody that I leaned on and got advice from so I
really jumped at the chance to bring him in and we got Allison Brager coming in to talk
about sleep she was at a conference a couple years ago but she had to pivot and she had
to talk at night and instead of the day because a general was coming into town to talk to
her so so not a lot of people got to see her so we wanted to give her the opportunity to
come out we've got Brittany Hollerback come in she works with Dr. Starr Janky and does
a ton of firefighter cancer research let's see Carrie Ramela is from Phoenix and she
does a lot of peer support for she used to work for Phoenix Fire now she actually works
for their union and does a lot of stuff with the IFF so she's going to talk about a lot
of the stuff that we kind of mentioned earlier the the Stella Ganglion Block the EMDR just
the ketamine I mean all these different treatments that are coming out that can help us with
behavior health and then the last day we have Dr. Donnie Hutchison doing work-life balance
so basically doing a four-hour workshop on work-life balance because I do believe that's
something that we all struggle with and we all can could use that and and get better
oh and I forgot to Scott Ross and Ed Monroe from LA County are going to be there so they're
going to talk about the shooting that happened at the firehouse and then Scott will kind
of talk about really the peer support call out and what they did with that so you'll
get both perspectives there and then on top of that we have a guest MC and remember this
is pro wrestling theme so we actually booked the mouth of the south Jimmy Hart to to be
there to be the guest MC and help out with the photo booth and all that stuff so I mean
if you showed a picture of Jimmy Hart everybody would recognize him he's 80 years old he's
been in a wrestling business for 60 years and he's managed everybody from Andy Kaufman
to Paul Kogan and about everybody in between so he's a really cool guy that we're gonna
I don't know exactly how we're gonna use him completely yet but he should be fun and that's
kind of it exotic beaver creek comm check it out 75 bucks all three days amazing there's
my friend shameless plug yeah no plug away that's why I asked that question you've had
some amazing people you know you've got some amazing people coming Frank Lieb is phenomenal
absolutely phenomenal I had him on the show and then Ed Monroe I'm actually interviewing
next week about that very thing because again as I touched on earlier suicide homicide broken
mind you know slightly different obviously expression but I mean ultimately it's a lack
of value for life someone's own other people etc so it'll be an interesting perspective
to hear that yeah all right so you want me to say more didn't you you were waiting for
me to yeah I gave you that face if you don't you don't have to no no I go ahead
no no go if you had something no I just it's got to the point like I'm just I'm amazed at
the lineup and the people that we get because it is it's like such good quality I mean like
last year when you were there I mean you mentioned Ben Vernon who just who rocked it just did
amazing I mean his his talk is so polished and I I don't know the only other person I
could compare it to is Travis Howes as far as just taking you on a ride emotionally and
have you just feeling like oh my god and then and then two seconds later have you laughing
out of your seat like that guy that guy's amazing you know Brandon McDonough you know
he gets up there and he just he doesn't need slides he just talks from the heart it's just
amazing amazing kid I love them you know but um getting all these people there is just
I I when I booked this stuff I that I take a step back and go I can't believe I did this
like wow like this is impressive absolutely and it was and it was so everyone listening
sign up is all I can say all right so transitioning to the book then so you have written a book
overcoming Tuesday out May 1st talk to me about what made you finally put pen to paper
and who you brought in to help you write it yeah sure you know um the idea of a book it
it actually came from uh FDIC so I got picked to speak at FDIC in 2023 ironically I found
out that I was going to be teaching a class on wellness while I was at the center of excellence
that's kind of funny to me but um you know part of the deal when you talk at FDIC is
fire engineering asks you to write an article regarding your topic and so you know my topic
was how to create or enhance your fire department's wellness program and I just like any of the
articles I do I write an outline and this outline was I mean just the outline alone
was like eight pages and I remember sending that to Bobby Halden and going is there a
book here and Bobby said if you want it to be it absolutely is and I kind of just sat
on that for a while because I think the way the outline was written it was almost more
of like a textbook on wellness which that's not for me that's not my forte and I think
really I think Dina is doing that and that's going to be amazing when that comes out so
um but the idea of a book it didn't necessarily go away and after everything I'd went through
and ultimately even retiring like when I looked at that outline again like I realized that
there was so many of these items about wellness that are just part of my story that could
be part of part of this and you know my my sister um my sister Hillary who who lives
in Greenville South Carolina um she was the one that initially started bugging me like
hey you should write a book hey I'll write your book and she has you know Hillary's a
teacher um she's she's written a children's book um which was was tremendous and so writing
a children's book and writing my book it's probably about the same thing right but less
pictures it's a it's it took me it took me a while um initially I balked at it like I
just didn't want to I just didn't want to do it I didn't want to share my story I kind
of just I think wanted to move on and then the more and more as time went by I realized
you know like I think this story could actually help some people and I mean I saw that I saw
that really at FDIC when I did my class because my my class like I made sure to to make it
personal and do talk and I was very open um during that class and I got tremendous feedback
for doing that and and that I think kind of finally pushed me into saying all right let's
do it so the idea was um essentially for her I don't know if you want to call her a ghost
writer or what but um we waited until school started for both you know for our kids and
then we sat down I just did over zoom or or over the phone and I would just tell her a
story and she would she would take all the notes and then write the chapter out and we
would go back and forth back and forth back and forth until we finally it sounded like
it it should so I kind of took a shortcut like it's it's my book it's my story but um
I had somebody much smarter and and and better at grammar than me actually put it you know
down on on paper or on the computer or whatever and uh she you know she had to from the start
um actually decide if she's going to be my sister or or be just a writer um for whatever
reason like I had a list of the topics I wanted to discuss I didn't start off with the easy
stuff I went right from the start with the bad stuff the shitty stuff the tough stuff
and I don't think she saw that coming and I don't know what possessed me to do that
but that's how I did it and so she had to make that choice pretty much right away like
I'm going to just be a writer and I'm not going to try to be really a sister or be emotional
really at all just you know be that kind of middle person mediator neutral party if you
will and uh I think that was a lot for her because I don't think she knew some stuff
she certainly didn't know all the stuff and you know but it all it worked out we started
in mid-august and you know here we are now um getting ready to finally get it out there
and I brought in uh your friend and my friend uh pat canny to write the foreword um I just
I have a connection with that guy uh he's just amazing I love him dearly and and he
just it just felt right um having him be a part of it um I've been blessed he told me
I mean from the start that I was part of Sean's team and it's just uh man I'm just blessed
to have him around and and to have uh have him start the book off and he and what he
wrote was ah man I mean I love it just from the start he just he really kind of puts everything
in perspective and gets you ready for that journey that I take you on in that book which
is it's not all bad there's a lot of good stuff in there too but it's it's certainly
a ride um but the hope is ultimately I mean when you when it really comes down to it the
book is about hope and it's about resiliency and you know fighting through the static and
getting on the other side and not giving up um and uh I really I mean my intent is my hope
is that it just helps somebody like they can read this story and maybe they learn from
my mistakes and don't do the same thing that's it I never really truly thought that I would
write a book and I certainly didn't think it would be about me and about my story and
that would have value but from the people that have read it they they say yeah like
it's good shit in there and it's it's amazing you're still here uh it's what I've been told
it's crazy that is so it's it's just it's my way of trying to give back and uh to continue
having a purpose and and I I realized I'm I'm retired I'm not going to be a firefighter
I'm not going to be a medic anymore um but I don't feel like I'm done I want to continue
to contribute and I know you understand that like I I feel like there's I could still help
I could still do things and this is this is just one of those forms to do it and and you
know comes out May 1st it's going to be available on Amazon there there I go again with a shameless
plug but um plug away I'm not sure where it's going to go and I'm just going to and I'm
okay with that I don't know if it's going to sell a dozen or however many I'm just going
to go for the ride and wherever it goes it goes you know um yeah that's it
Did you find it cathartic to get these stories out of your mind onto paper?
I I think so and I and I think a lot of it was um part of it too I should say was a lot of like I left
like here like all my job you know for Dating Fire
a lot of people probably the majority of folks there I was there I was the wellness guy and then
I wasn't and I was gone and they really never saw me again like you know I went away for 40 days
you know was hidden away at a radio repair for 90 days and like and next thing I know like then
I'm not working at all and I'm growing this glorious beard and then I finally retire and
they just don't you know they don't know what happened they have no idea what transpired
because you know from their perspective I was there I was doing good things the people in the
street they loved me they knew that I had their back they knew that I was fine for them and all
of a sudden snap of the fingers and I can't I can't snap with well I got the this little
sling on but anyway uh and then I was gone and so and I really didn't tell anybody again because
I talked to you earlier about the fear like I was I was so fearful that um
that um something could happen and it was actual it was I mentioned it now a couple times Michael
Sugru was the guy who told me he said Jim you're not going to feel safe until you see a deposit
in your checking account only at that point where you feel like you have security in your family and
you're going to be okay and that was that was 100 true what he told me um and so this in a way this
book is not always that I think going to help people but it it tells the people what happened
what went down um so that doing that actually telling people and being honest and telling the
truth and giving it out there that was definitely cathartic um and then everything else I think is
just bonus as far as I think how it could help people because I try to I talk about
I talk about sleep in there I talk about hearing loss I talk about cancer I definitely talk about
behavioral health but um work-life balance it's all it's all in there and I and I wrote it as a way
because I did I really did want it to be considered a resource maybe not a traditional resource but I
wanted it to be a resource nonetheless beautiful
well I want to say thank you so much it's been a phenomenal conversation I think it
just lined up perfectly with the first one we literally just carried on where we left off last
time but it's that courageous vulnerability that I think is so important whether it's in this
conversation whether it's the story that you've written in the book um it's the people be able
identify like oh that's me I've gone through this or I'm struggling with that or you know this is
what my wife says you know I'm behaving like or whatever it is those are the stories that we
actually need and you mentioned hope I think that's that's the superpower like I always say
like the fact that you can go through these crucibles and come out the other side and even
not wear the uniform on you know anymore and still be okay which is what you did switch what I did
it really does I think infuse hope to people that are going through whatever version of struggles
they are so I want to thank you so much for being as I said so courageously vulnerable today there's
so much power to that and also for being so generous with your time and coming on the behind
the shield podcast no well thank you for that and thank you for bringing me back on I mean I I can't
say you know I remember actually talking to you and I don't know if you remember this at the center
of excellence no I didn't oh man I was so looking back and thinking that at that time I mean I was
just I was a mess I was uh oh it was just very dark back then but I I remembered you just putting
everything in perspective back then because I mean you were at center of excellence they do give you
a phone you're able to talk to people and our conversation was really powerful and it helped
motivate me and and make kind of clear my head and make sure that I I finished the job at hand
and I just focused because it was it was uh it was easy to when you're there to think about
everything else that's waiting for you you know that's kind of the you're you're safe there
but when you come home how's all that going to work out how's how's the wife and the kids going
to be how's uh how's work going to be you know during that time uh I remember I know you were
just getting ready to finish up and I'm I apologize but no no carry on you know you have your phone
and I remember seeing I remember seeing uh because I share a calendar with my wife and I was like
an appointment for my oldest son and I remember asking her like what what is what is this appointment
and and this is near the end I'm getting ready to come home but yeah my wife tells me like
Jamison's been acting up he's he's he's not been himself ever since you left
and oh man that sucked that sucked hearing that like it made me want to go home even more like
but just the fact that me messing up me being over here is now causing him issues you know this is
at this point an eight-year-old who's now talking to a clinician because of me like I'm not going to
like uh it just sucked man it was so heavy it was and I was just even I'll even say 40 days
quite honestly it wasn't enough like I I've wanted it to be enough because I just was really I wanted
to be home I didn't want to be there but like in reality looking back I wasn't ready and that's what
I struggled even when I came back and back, I can make a move forward when I collect information
I wasn't ready and that's why I struggled even when I came back and and also
we never really came back.
I had to leave because I just I needed more time to work through all that shit.
So I don't know.
I just I know I just went on that tangent as you're trying to leave.
I'm sorry.
No, no, but just I mean that that is exactly what I'm writing about the moment.
So just like you I'm writing a book because I want these stories to resonate
with people.
I don't about the money not about you know any fame not that you get fame from
writing a book as a firefighter anyway, but and then my ultimate goal is to get
it made into a TV show because this is what I want people to really understand
if it's you know, it's going to be a firefighter story modern-day, but there's
going to be a multi-generational element too.
So you've got those two kind of parallel journeys happening and then whatever
happened prior to put the uniform and zoning amplified and as we touched about
the way that we're worked at the moment and what we do see and you know, the if
you're a true empath you take on all this kind of trauma as well, but it's also
important to look back and not feel guilty about the impact because it is
dominoes falling and so that hope as well of realizing that you can stop that
last domino that you can actually be there for your kids and interject and
stop them having the trauma.
So I think it's beautiful that Jameson is going to see a counselor because that
is a proactive solution is beautiful that you transitioned out and your home
every day now and they have their dad there and they can see the healing.
So I think the hope of realizing that trauma in all these different ways
including multi-generational because again, I mean, you know, Ohio of all
states understands the impact of multi-generational trauma and we're seeing
it with the fentanyl crisis.
For example, the hope that yes, you know, this these these elements happened
up to this point, but I cannot turn the time back.
I can't go back in time and fix it, but I can own it today.
But that feeling of guilt has no place in the place of growth.
So forgiving yourself, you know for signing up for a profession that
ultimately caused some of these issues because it was coming from a good place
and just putting in the work now for yourself and your family to all heal.
So and that you know, we mentioned the Savior Warrior.
We really didn't go into that and I know you've had a lot of people on
Savior Warrior, but I remember I remember being there in my cohort and
just hoping that it wasn't too late to stop any of the trauma to my boys
to actually putting a stop to it to stop that generational trauma.
And you know, I was told then like yeah, they're young enough.
You're good.
You you know, stop stop the shit you're doing and you could stop that
generational trauma and I really think that despite all this stuff
site going away Center of Excellence and all the stuff like I think I have
you know, like my priority like I realized as shitty as all this stuff is
everything that happened to me.
I realized how blessed I am now to be in this place to be you know, to
to have a pension and to not really have to worry about money to be in
a good place where that's not a stressor and to where I don't have to
go away.
I don't have to work and like I have it to where like I don't do anything
in the summertime.
Like when the boys are off, I'm not I'm with them like and we go on
adventures all summer last year was the first year we were able to do
that and and it's going to be the same way this year.
So I'm really I am so fortunate to be in a place I am to where I can
be present.
I can be dad and I can do all these things while they're still young.
Why they still like me and I and I just realized that's not that's
not the norm.
So I as much as the bullshit I went through I'm I realized how blessed
I am now and and it's it's everything to me.
You know, it's it's sucked getting here.
But now that I'm here, I think I'll stay a while.