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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome
on the show, paramedic, FDNY firefighter and the man behind the burn box, Thomas Ansoo.
Now in this conversation we discuss a host of topics from his early life growing up in
New York, his journey into the world of EMS, entering the fire service, the importance
of servant leadership, firefighter mental health, special operations, power of entrepreneurship
and so much more.
Now before we get to this incredible conversation, as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and
leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making it easier
for others to find.
And this is a free library of over 900 episodes now.
So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so
I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Thomas Ansoo.
Enjoy.
Well, Thomas, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast this afternoon.
Thank you for having me as I've been a fan for a while and it's an honor to be here and
tell my story and speak to you.
Absolutely.
Likewise.
So where on planet earth will be finding you today?
So where do I live?
Yes.
Oh, all right.
So currently right now I live in Long Island, New York, Baldwin, but I was born and raised
in Queens.
So that's where I live most of my life.
I just moved out here to Long Island and I work in Brooklyn.
So brilliant.
Well, let's start in Queensland.
So tell me about your family dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?
Oh, man.
So my father was like a manager of a supermarket.
He's been doing that for 30.
He's still working.
He's like 72.
He's still working.
He's kind of the only guy working.
My mom was pretty much a stay at home mother.
She had a few jobs here and there, but nothing really serious.
I have six brothers and I have four sisters.
Wow.
So I got a pretty big family growing up.
We were actually born in Manhattan, most of us, and then we moved to Queens when I was
like six.
We moved to Queens Village and that's kind of where we've been.
That's kind of where they still are now.
Beautiful.
With your dad, it's an interesting lens that he has.
Have you ever had the discussion with him about how groceries have changed over the
years?
How, because when I was young, which is certainly before you were born, there wasn't really
any food as far as organic and that kind of thing.
Now a few decades prior there was, but then you start getting all the processed food.
But now when you go into a lot of supermarkets or grocery stores, that finally is a thing.
They don't have their own section anymore.
The organic, healthier food is everywhere now.
So has he ever discussed about the kind of evolution of what's in his walls?
He never really talks about his job really.
He just complains that some of the cashiers don't show up and stuff like that.
My father's actually from Ghana.
He's from Ghana, West Africa.
So he came here when he was 28.
So he has a very different outlook on everything.
He's a very like nonchalant, like nothing makes him upset.
He's always very cool.
He just comes home and he's like, work was work.
Now what about his experience?
Obviously I'm an immigrant too.
And I think that sometimes there's a very, what's the right word, irresponsible narrative
when it comes to immigration in America.
And a lot of this country is built on the back of immigrants from all colors and creeds.
What were the highs of his immigration story and then were there any lows as well?
I wouldn't say there was any lows.
One time he got assaulted, somebody hit him with a hammer.
Crazy.
But it's New York.
I'm not sure.
I was very young.
I'm not sure if that had to do with him being an immigrant, but he had struggles because
he has a heavy African accent.
So like people think because he has an accent, he's stupid or something, which is a problem
he has, is a challenge he has a lot.
But as far as us and our upbringing, he was just very big on education and he wanted us
to go to school.
He didn't care what, like you could be a terrible kid, but as long as you had good grades, he
was okay with it.
That was his big, that was the one thing he didn't get angry often, but if it came to
school, that's the one thing that kind of made him upset.
See English people have the opposite problem.
Everyone thinks we're intelligent when I'm actually dumb as a box of rocks.
School is a big thing for him.
I mean, I guess he's still disappointed in me.
I didn't go to school.
I went to school, but I didn't go to college or anything.
We went to trade school.
I'd argue that's probably one of the most powerful ways of educating a child.
Yeah, but growing up was mayhem and having all those siblings and like getting ready
for school, everyone fighting for the bathroom.
It was a challenge every morning.
I'm one of five and I grew up on a farm, so we were kind of feral.
We kind of raised ourselves a little bit, but it was the same thing.
You become this little tribe and almost kind of separate from your parents.
Yeah, I used to wonder how did my parents do it, but things were different back then,
but I think a lot of it was the older ones start to look after the younger ones.
So you know what I mean?
Like my older brothers did a lot of, you know, my parents would go out, they'd watch us and
it was terrible because they were terrorists.
They were mean.
What about sports?
What were you playing and doing back in school age?
So one thing I wasn't heavy into sports like as far as school, but I would go to the park.
My sport of choice was basketball.
I never really played for a team, but I would go to the park and always play basketball.
My older brother, he was a football, I have one older brother who was big in football.
Another older brother was big into chess, but no one really took sports too, too seriously.
And what about access to actual, you know, athletic areas?
Because when I think of, you know, Manhattan and some of these really built up, you know,
urban settings, when there's a discussion on, for example, you know, again, nutrition and
you look at what, you know, technically as a food desert and in a populated city or the
ability to exercise.
Now, you know, in Manhattan, obviously people are walking everywhere, but it's not like
they have these lush, beautiful parks everywhere like we do here in Florida, for example.
So what was, you know, what kind of parks did you have access to back then?
So Central Park in the city, that's a big, that's a pretty big, a lot of people go there.
In Brooklyn where I work now, Prospect Park, a lot of people like to get out and walk around
there.
There's a lot of local parks in our neighborhood.
Speaking, now that you say it, I do remember guys played roller hockey.
We had like a roller hockey ring, but we didn't have a couple of parks.
I wouldn't say lush and beautiful, concrete, most of it, and asphalt, but we found ways
to get active, ride our bikes, you know, run around, play tag and stuff.
Did you have any exposure to the fire service when you were a kid?
Had none.
The only thing is when I was a kid, no, only time I really learned about the fire department
is when I was like an adult.
So when you were in school, what were you dreaming of becoming back then?
So going to school, I was not the best student.
I wouldn't say I was a bad kid.
I wasn't into gangs, but I was very, very silly and goofy, very immature.
So what I wanted to be a business, I wanted to be go to business.
I know I wanted to do business, so I think the high school I went to had like, it was
broken up to four different schools.
And the one I went to was the business part of that school.
It was in Queens, New York.
And you know, they give you a few business courses.
It wasn't much, but that's kind of where I wanted to go.
I wanted to get into business, found it interesting.
So walk me through the journey from graduating wanting to go in the business world to entering
the rock.
All right, so my older brother had became an EMT.
He was in this program where if you get in trouble, like not in trouble, if you're short
a few credits for like to graduate high school, you are they have a program where you can
get your diploma, the credits that you're shy to graduate and you can get your EMT certification,
your emergency medical technician certification.
So my older brother did it.
I didn't really want to do it, but I found myself following after him two years later.
I was shy a few credits and I kind of was being a knucklehead in school.
So I said, you know, I didn't have any other options.
Well, I had other options, but I figured I'd follow my brother's footsteps.
I get into that program where I get my EMT credits in my diploma.
And it was a challenging program because you have to, you couldn't miss any days.
You couldn't be late too much.
You have to keep a certain grade to stay in, but you get your EMT card and your diploma
at the same time.
So it was a good opportunity.
I took it.
I thank God I passed it.
And then right after you graduate that you go right into FDNY has a training orientation
program for EMTs for EMS.
It was called TOPS class.
And it's right when I graduated, I graduated, let's say June 1st, I was in FDNY TOPS class,
like the 20th of June.
And I was 18 when that happened.
And where did you find yourself assigned?
So after joining TOPS class, I got assigned to Bed Star Brooklyn, station 35.
It was in the bottom of a hospital.
It was probably, there was a station right next to it.
There was two, station five seven and station three five.
And three five is kind of like the forgotten child of that neighborhood.
So we were in the basement.
It was like next to the morgue.
It was gross.
But now right when I left, became a firefighter.
They got a brand new station.
But of course, when I leave, they get all the nice stuff.
But yeah, it was a good experience, man.
Bed Star is a little different than it is now.
It wasn't as bad as the 80s, but it was definitely a rougher neighborhood.
Nowadays it's a very neighborhood, very gentrified.
It's very different.
It's not as bad as it was, but it was a good neighborhood to get experience.
What shifts were you working?
So when you first graduate, you get put on a mentor unit.
So like for 90 days, you work with experienced EMTs.
And then after that, then you get put on a regular line unit.
So I worked the unit I worked sat in Greenpoint, which was not too bad.
But after I got a probation, I got sent into right in the heart of Bed Star, unit three
seven Frank, it was a very busy unit.
You got a lot of experience out doing that, man.
Did I answer the question?
Yeah, absolutely.
Was that an EMT and a medic, two of you in each unit?
No, so EMTs, EMTs are paired with EMTs and medics are paired with medics.
That's how it works.
If you get a BLS run and you need medics, you just call for them.
Certain calls have medics, they have both of us on them.
Gotcha.
So in that area, you said it wasn't as bad as the 80s.
Talk to me about that area in the 80s and then what were the kind of calls that you
were running on in your career?
Well, back then it was big with drugs was a big thing back in the day.
When I started working there, you still had your issues with drugs.
Problem is it was very, very violent.
So we do a lot of shootings, a lot of stabbings.
You get a lot of your run in the mill calls.
But when I first got assigned to that bedside area, that's there was a lot of shootings,
a lot of stabbing.
You're guaranteed every weekend, you're guaranteed to get some trauma calls there.
The neighborhood is not the same anymore.
I don't work there anymore, but I drive through it.
It's just a much nicer, it's not much going on.
It's definitely changed.
A lot of the cities changed, to be honest.
So when you think back to that time, though, because I think again, back to environment,
we've both seen it.
There are kids that you go to their parents' house on a call and you just look around and
go, oh my God, these kids are doomed to get out of this and find a positive road.
When you look back at that time, what was that environment?
What were the contributing factors that were resulting in addiction, drug dealing and the
violence around it?
Oh man, there's a lot that contribute to that.
I think education is a big part of it, just lack of education.
There's a lot of people, hardworking families out there trying to do their best, but they
don't know what they don't know.
Just also the pressures of the neighborhood.
So let's say for me, for instance, me, I was in my high school.
I wasn't in the worst neighborhood, but my high school, you had to go through metal detectors
to get in, but there would still be a mob of kids standing outside when you get out.
So yeah, you're clean, you got nothing on you, but when you go in home, you're getting robbed
on the way home.
That kind of principle applies.
You could try your best to do what you can, but if it's a lot of toxic people in your
environment, you kind of have to... Sometimes you got to do things you don't want to do
to survive.
You find a lot of people just minding their business, getting caught up in stuff.
I think lack of education is a huge one.
I think whenever there's lack of education, lack of money in a neighborhood, it's going
to breed violence.
I've always found it... I think strange is even the right word.
Unfair, I think is the word.
We're all aware of those kind of parts of town, those schools that have the metal detectors
and the really bad gang membership, and there are shootings and killings outside those schools
all the time.
When you get a person walk into a school, all of a sudden it makes the news, and rightly
so.
It's a horrendous event, any sort of school shooting.
But I always... When I see those, think of, well, that's probably the tip of the iceberg
for how many kids are murdered just outside of school, just like you were saying.
Yeah, so it's unfortunate.
But I'm not going to say act like the city or people haven't tried to make programs.
There's definitely programs, after school programs and stuff out there.
But is it enough?
I don't know.
But things have definitely changed a little bit for the better, I would say.
Now what about mentorship and the fire service specifically?
One of the best things that I've seen, and I talk about it all the time, they have a
mentorship program here in Ocala, Florida, where I live, and started by a friend of mine.
If you think about, for example, the diversity conversation, and FDNY was certainly one of
the ones dragged into the spotlight initially for that.
Ultimately you want to find the best candidates in all the areas, all walks of life.
When you set up mentorship programs and you remove the barriers to entry, because here
in Florida we have to go through Fire Academy first, pay for it, and then try and get hired
usually.
So if you're from a poorer neighborhood, you may just simply not have the means to
get to an academy to pay for an academy.
So what this does is it trains the kids free of charge, and they have a centrally located
area, usually downtown.
And then there are scholarships for Fire Academy, and then departments on the other end look
into hire.
It's a phenomenal program, because not only are you raising up young boys and girls that
are going to be great firefighters, you're also giving them an opportunity, other girls
and boys, to go, you know what, this isn't what I want to do.
And that's a huge win as well.
So through the FDNY lens now, have you seen mentorship programs that are empowering kids
from less underserved neighborhoods to be able to believe that they can also be firefighters?
Yes.
That's one big thing that the fire department has made huge strides in lately.
I didn't necessarily, I didn't really know, I knew you see fire trucks driving by when
you're a kid, but I didn't put the two and two together that, you know, I could do this
thing.
So growing up, I didn't really know about, I didn't really think that it was possible
for me.
I didn't have any family on it.
So I never just, it was just out of sight, out of mind.
But that's when I became an EMT, and I was working side by side with these guys and watching
some of my fellow coworkers, they were taking the promotional exam to become EMTs, I mean,
come firemen.
That's kind of where I was like, oh, oh, it made it seem realistic.
But the FDNY, there was a huge lawsuit and there was a hiring freeze, but they've been
making a lot of strides to even the playing field as far as diversity goes.
So they have huge diversity initiatives.
Like my brother-in-law is waiting to get hired now and he has a mentor.
You see him on the street, like you're walking by, they have little tables set up.
They're doing a lot more than I remember when I was getting hired.
So it's huge, it's huge what they're doing to get, spread the word, you know, just let
you know that it's an option, let you know it's something you could do.
A lot of the, they have free training for like when the test, after you take the test,
like if you want to take practice, like for the physical or practice written, it's like
they have all that stuff available, you know, which I didn't know existed.
But they've really doubled down recently.
Yeah.
Now I think it's important for people to hear that because those programs just seem to work
so well and it just addresses all the inequities that used to occur, you know, and you think
about how many great firefighters and police officers and EMTs and you know, other professions
that we lost because we just weren't able to get into those areas.
And those, you know, young men and women maybe missed the opportunity to do something that
they really, you know, dreamed about.
So yeah, and then also I got a friend, Steve O. Michelle, who's originally his family from
Haiti and he grew up in, I mean, the most desperate apartment complex I've ever seen
in my whole career.
I mean, we used to think that it was all boarded up and vacant and, you know, people would
come and move the boards out the way and, you know, move a whole family in.
And I mean, it literally looked like it came from a third world country.
And he ended up getting into one of the Colorado colleges playing ball and then he became a
firefighter and he got himself assigned back to his neighborhood just so he could show
other Haitian and Haitian descent kids that you can be a firefighter.
If I can do it, you can do it.
So I think those messages are so, so important.
Yeah, that's huge.
That's huge.
Like when I got into that EMT program that I was in high school, a lot of the kids that
graduated that same program, they would come back and they would just come back, they would
be in uniform and they're dressed blues and they would just tell you, hey guys, this is
awesome.
Stay with it, stay focused.
And it made a difference for sure.
Beautiful.
Well, talk to me then about your transition from EMS to fire them.
Okay.
So when I got to my EMS station, worked there a couple of months, everyone, most of the
guys there, they were, they took the promotional exam.
So the way the FDNY works is they have an open competitive and then they have a promotional
exam to get hired off of open competitive is for the general public and the promotional
is for them to, they promote you from EMT paramedic to fire.
I know it could be different in other States, but yeah, where I work, it's they promote
you.
The promotional comes out every two years, if I'm not mistaken, it's been a bit, and
the open competitive is every four years, whatever.
So when I'm there, a lot of guys took that promotional test and they're waiting for their
physical.
So all they talked around the station was they're talking about fitness, talking about
their heart rates, they're getting in shape, they're talking about the run.
And I'm like, what are you guys talking about?
And they would just explain, Hey, listen, we're trying to go to fire.
And they told me all about it.
They told me the benefits.
They told me about the job.
And that's when I really realized, I'm like, wow, this seems like a lot of fun.
I think I could do this.
So that's kind of how fire got put on my radar.
I was an EMT for about five years.
I took the following promotional, and then I went to paramedic school for a brief stint.
So I don't know if I can call myself a paramedic.
I went to the class.
I passed the final, but I never worked a day as a medic.
But right when I had a week left and then fire academy started, so I just took the final
and then I went right into the fire academy.
But that's kind of how I found out about the fire department.
That's kind of how I learned about how it works, the benefits, the perks, the schedule.
Everything that I found out about the fire department was like, I need to do this.
I mean, you had a hell of a skill set to bring into the fire service, though, whether you
worked as a medic or not.
I mean, that was still tools in the toolbox.
Yes.
Yeah, I was already helping people.
So it was just like another way to help people.
So when you look back on the EMT side, before we get to the fire side now, what were some
of the what we would call career calls you had in those five years?
So yeah, I was very young.
I was 18, man.
I had delivered my first like right when I got off that probation unit, that training
unit, my first tour, I delivered a baby.
And it was like it was me and another intern.
So it's like both of us.
It was strange.
But it's messed up, man, because you're always you're there at people's worst.
So when you say career calls, are you asking like just some of the calls that stand out?
Yeah, because I mean, the worst thing you can ask any of us is what's the worst thing
you've seen.
So it's not about that.
It could be, you know, like you said, delivering a child.
Like, for example, one of my shifts, I was on I think I was on shift and then I went
to my medic ride along.
I extubated a term Leo patient.
So I basically took a life and then I delivered a baby and brought life into this world all
within about 24 hours of each other.
So that's one thing not horrific, but it was just, you know, a memorable thing.
And obviously, there's I'm writing my second book, I literally was writing about one of
my worst calls just like an hour before we sat down.
That was fucking awful.
But so yeah, just any anything that you when you look back, you know, was powerful to you.
Oh, so yeah, that was a big one.
Just delivering a baby.
But I don't know, man.
It's just what comes to mind is I can go on and tell you about the shootings, the stabbings,
but it's just it just for me, it puts me in a that job put me in a strange mindset because
you start you start to see how people treat each other.
And that, you know, that if you're not strong enough, that kind of that could mess with
you a little bit.
So a lot of I'll be honest with you, a lot of the runs on all other calls, they all kind
of blend together.
All the stuff that deal with kids are probably the worst.
Those really cut the most.
You know, those are never fun.
But yeah, it just puts a different perspective on the way you see life.
You see life differently when you start start that job.
I really like the job.
Honestly, I'll be honest with you.
Don't tell anybody.
I'm not going to tell anybody.
Go back.
But I had a good partner.
You know, you listen to music in between calls while you're driving around.
I didn't mind it.
My department at the time, it could it was a little crab in the barrel.
Like, you know, people were kind of going after each other, but which completely changed
when I joined the suppression side.
But yeah, I really liked it.
It was not every day you have to be scooping up gunshot victims, you know, in
the morning.
You don't have to be all that, which it is a 90 percent of the time.
One of my strongest memories, I've been interested to see if you had the same thing when you
were in the ambulance.
I remember driving up Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando, which is our kind of red light
district and a lot of poverty and violence as well.
And we're driving up in what we call the rescue.
So it's an ambulance with firefighter gear on it.
And I just remember, you know, like sex workers and gang members all just like waving to us
when we were going by.
I'm like, there is not another vehicle on planet Earth that the most desperate people
in society would wave to.
But the end of the day, if something horrific happens to them, we're the very last people
that they're probably going to see, hopefully save their life.
So did you have that?
I mean, obviously you're working in a pretty rough neighborhood.
Was there a kind of reverence of you guys and your profession specifically amidst a
lot of this desperation?
I didn't really get that too much when I was driving an ambulance, unfortunately.
That's like when you become a firefighter, you're like a local celebrity.
Everyone waves, stops and waves.
But it wasn't, I'll be honest, it's sad to say like law enforcement has it pretty bad.
So we didn't have it as bad as law enforcement because it's like a thankless job those guys
have right now.
It's tough.
But yeah, I didn't really have that happen when I was in EMT.
No one's ever really happy to see you.
When you pull up in an ambulance, people are kind of screaming like, hurry up, you know,
hurry up.
It's funny though, like you said about being told to go back when you're a firefighter,
because over here we get to be both simultaneously.
So I'm a firefighter paramedic.
But there is this kind of rhetoric about, I don't want to do EMS, I just want to do
fire, especially when we are dual certified here.
But I always say, okay, well, you make the most heroic rescue.
You do a right hand search, you drag them out onto the front porch.
Now what?
You just remove the corpse until an EMT or a paramedic and ultimately doctors and nurses
interact and hopefully save that person's life.
So I never understood that kind of anti-EMS sentiment because ultimately, whether you
like it or not, you save lives in the back of a rescue.
You 100% right.
And I think everybody knows that deep down.
They just don't want to, you know, what it is.
We're here to help people, you know, and you probably have a better chance bringing somebody
back doing CPR versus you.
Like how often are you dragging people out of fires?
Well, I guess it depends on where you work.
Yeah, I've only dragged dead people out of fire.
So I'm over whatever now.
Well, then one more question before we move to fire.
When you look back now with this mature perspective that you have an 18 year old boy being thrusted
into that world straight away.
There's conversations about the fact that our brains haven't kind of matured yet.
And I was just by chance, I was, I didn't get into the fire service till I was 27.
So I, you know, my poor little tiny brain had been given some chance to mature, but
there is a lot of conversation about, are we putting, you know, our kids into first
responder professions too early and exposing them to trauma where maybe they're not quite
ready yet.
So what's your perspective starting so long as young yourself and being thrust into a
pretty, pretty desperate area?
Oh man.
So I don't know.
I never said this before, but I remember I was in a bad place, man.
I was, cause I just, everything was just seeing so much, seeing so much.
I will just remember mentally just being in a bad place.
So I get mental health is huge for us.
Luckily, I didn't, you know, I didn't, it didn't send me off the deep end.
So I was able to bounce back, but I do remember being like 19, 20 and just in my mind, I just
like nothing made sense to me.
I was like, what's the point?
You know, it was, I remember being in a bad head space at that time.
I don't know.
I don't know what pulled me out of it, to be honest with you, but I do remember that
looking back, I do remember just thinking to myself, you know, how, how important mental
health is mental health is huge, man.
It's kind of an issue we're having now, you know, every now and then, unfortunately we're
having guys who succumb to challenges they face, you know.
I've seen a few FDNY death notifications and it breaks my heart because every time there's
not an explanation of what happened, you know, it's either, you know, it's a suicide or an
overdose, you know, basically.
So and those are the same things to me.
They're exactly the same.
It's, it's a mental health crisis.
And, you know, when you, when you look back and you think that, like, I've got a 16 year
old at the moment who's a junior.
So all you knew until 18, as you said, you're even doing some extra credits to make sure
that you graduate.
All you knew was the classroom and then, you know, summer break and that kind of thing.
And so when you transition out and they're like, Thomas, all right, here's the real world
now and your echo chamber is everyone's worst night, worst day.
How is that not going to skew your perspective of the world?
Yeah, I remember for maybe a year straight, I just remembered being just, I was probably
a terror to be around.
I was just like, what's the point?
Kind of like, but yeah, thank God I didn't stay there long, you know.
But yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you for sharing that because I think, you know, all of us go through stuff,
you know, but when, and if you had this when you were younger, you know, we look at the
other guys and girls and we're like, well, they're all fine.
Why am I the one that's going through this?
But none of us are fine.
How can you?
You're going to be a sociopath if you were fine, like truly fine, unaphased by all the
horrific things that we see.
I think something that could be beneficial, if I could give a piece of advice to like
my younger self would be just to get a support system, you know, even, you know, just to
have somebody or have a group of people, even if it's your family, just try, it's probably
easier said than done.
If I had to support a better support system, you know, maybe it would have helped me like
navigate that a little better.
But that's the one piece of advice.
Try to get it, try to get a support system, a couple of people you trust to help you work
through things, you know.
Absolutely.
And especially outside the fire service.
I think people don't realize that when you're in a crew getting beat down, you know, once
every three days, 24 hours, you're all in the same meat grinder.
So you're not a good barometer on how each of you is doing, but your family members and
your friends, they're the ones that be like, wow, you look like shit today.
What's going on?
You need that honesty.
Yeah.
Mental health, man.
Yeah, but it was a, I mean, I had honesty.
It's, I haven't really thought about those days in a while, you know, you bring up thinking
back of all that stuff, man.
I had a lot of good memories working in EMS, but I do remember, you know, it can weigh
on you.
I know I didn't go through it particularly.
I know when COVID happened, a lot of people, a lot of EMTs had a hard time as well, just
with the stuff that they saw, you know, and the runs they were running, you know.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you again for your transparency there.
Moving on to the fire side then, and I absolutely adore the fire side too.
You know, you do this promotional test.
You like myself had no real family in fire, so I didn't really know, you know, I just
knew ladder 49 and back draft.
That's about the only introduction I got to the American fire service.
So what was your transition like?
Walk me through your probation there and then where you were assigned.
Okay.
So the fire academy was, it was interesting, you know, it was fun, challenging.
I got assigned to engine 290, ladder 1, engine 290, firehouses 290, 103 in East New York,
Brooklyn, back to Brooklyn.
It was a busy shop.
Everyone says they're in the busy shop.
You ask anybody and after you, where do you work?
You know, it was busy.
Funny enough that the engine I worked, they did a lot of EMS, a lot of EMS calls and they
also did a decent amount of fire.
It's very, it's one of the tougher houses on the job.
So I'm super grateful I got sent there because even though we ran around a lot, there was
a lot of training, a lot of drilling and I learned discipline there.
I learned how to be disciplined and focused and I learned to pay attention to the small
details.
There was a lot of little details and you know, if you don't pay attention, they all
start to add up and I'm glad because I think if I went somewhere that was really laid back,
I'd probably be, you know, wherever I went is what I would have came, you know, and I'm
glad I went there because it taught me all the stuff I need that kind of helped me move
forward.
What was it about the officers or the leaders in the station that created that culture?
Because if I hear EMS, I hear, you know, high frequency of fire, but I also hear training
and drilling, which I think is so important, even more important if you're in a quiet station.
So when you think back as far as leadership, you know, what were the qualities that created
that culture?
So one thing I noticed immediately when I got in the fire service and I got walked in
that firehouse, it felt like it didn't feel like it felt like the guys, the bosses were
working with you, you know, if like they'll be on the hose, humping the hose with you
versus when I was on the other side, it was kind of telling you what to do, you know,
it felt like the higher ups were with you.
So the captain we had, he just retired actually like a month ago.
He never raised his voice.
He one thing that was huge is he always if you were you did what you're supposed to do,
he would always go to bat for you no matter what, which was huge, which I wasn't used
to.
And again, the big thing for me was just feeling like the guys, the bosses, they earned your
respect because they were they were doing it with you.
They wouldn't actually do anything that they wouldn't do.
Yeah, that reminds me a lot of my, my favorite crew, I'll be completely honest in Anaheim,
California, my my captain is exactly the same.
He was a ginger wrestler when he was younger, you know, construction his whole life as well.
And you know, big old bushy red mustache, and he would just get off and, you know, look
around and then he just say like three words and he knew exactly what needed to be done.
But just like you said, he never raised his voice, we'd have to fight him at the kitchen
sink for the dishes, you know, fighting for the brush on the rig.
I mean, you name it, but that's that's a leader that's not a boss.
And I think that's the difference.
Another thing that I really loved about my firehouse that first fire I got sent to was
they had like most firehouses have it, but it was just like such a I've never experienced
it before, like the sense of pride that everyone had.
You know, everyone, everyone had a sense of pride and it was so it wasn't just about it's
like if you got detailed out, you were representing that company.
So they made sure you had you like you were squared away all across the board.
And if you're associated with this firehouse, it's going to be associated with, you know,
professionalism.
That was huge.
Absolutely.
I always remember just that feeling and that crew, for example, that feeling when you get
on scene that you can just tell people are glad that your crew got on scene, you know,
that you added value to that crew or that scene rather than others that I've seen to
get off the scene because they were removing so much value at that moment.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's exactly that.
It's super grateful for I don't know.
I don't know.
Somebody must have liked me.
I'm very grateful I got sent there.
It definitely set the trajectory for me.
So where were you after that?
So I was there for about eight years and I just recently got sent over to squad one also
in Brooklyn Park Slope.
I'd been there for about two years now, two or three years now.
And special operations, we have squads and rescues and stuff.
So it's a little extra training, a little extra equipment.
But you got to have one a minimum of five years and they like, you know, you got to
have some experience, you know, they don't want to teach you basic firefighting.
You got to have that squared away before you get there.
And when I got there, I was just so grateful because a lot of stuff I didn't feel behind
the eight ball at all.
Well, with some of the newer stuff, the technical stuff, I didn't know, obviously, but a lot
of a lot of stuff I was prepared.
I was well prepared coming from the house I came from.
So I was super grateful.
So what was the skill set for a squad specifically?
Because I know we use all these different terms depending on where we are in the country.
So what would a squad company be responsible for?
So squad companies are they're like basically a manpower pool.
So we pull up to the command post.
We pretty much do whatever needs to get done.
We have basic assignments, right?
We have assignments that we have kind of in stone.
But if we get there and the chief has something else for us to do, we kind of take on that
task.
So for example, if it's a five story building, first, first, first do go to the first floor.
Second do goes to the second floor.
Who's checking three, four and five?
Like we could get sent to go check the upper floors or if it's a roller stores, right?
Maybe first do is in five building.
Second do goes to exposure two.
Like who's checking the other stuff?
So we kind of fill in the gaps.
Squads operate in their first do response area as an engine.
But aside from that, you know, we operate pretty much like a truck and we respond to
any fires in the borough on our half of the borough.
So we split the borough with squad 252.
So on our half of the borough, any fire calls, we go there, operate as a squad.
But in our first response area, we operate as an engine.
Who normally gets assigned rent?
I've had varying dynamics in the four departments I work for.
Sometimes it was a special operations guys.
Sometimes it was, you know, one or two rescues put together.
So what about with your borough?
So we have the squads, right?
And again, we're like a manpower pool.
We kind of just fill the gaps to get things done.
Rescues for my mistake.
And these guys were made, they were created to save firemen.
They do way more now, right?
So command is grown, but that's kind of, so when they get assigned, there's one rescue
in every borough and they get assigned to every fire and they kind of go there.
And that's kind of one of the things that they do.
But we, on our regular assignments, we have a, we have a fast team.
So our third responding truck, they operate as the fast team or you guys would say RIT.
So most, we don't, surprisingly, the fast truck doesn't get put to work often.
Thank God it's a good thing.
But our third responding truck on every fire is the, the fast team or the RIT team.
Has there been an increase in conversation on rope rescue after the thing you had too
recently?
Oh man.
I remember being in Probie school.
I remember being in the academy thinking we're never going to do this.
Cowboy stuff.
We're never sending anybody over.
And then since I've been a fireman, it's probably been like five or six.
It's just, yeah.
Whenever something big like that happens or something like that, it's fairly rare and
it's probably one of the more dangerous things we do.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it goes job wide.
Everyone's talking about it.
Everyone's asking what this guy did.
How did he set it up?
You know, you know, it's, it's, it's good.
It's good to get people talking.
It's good for the, maybe the companies that are in, people who are engines who don't really
do rope stuff.
You know, it's good to get everyone talking, drilling on it again.
But I was on vacation when it happened.
So I, you know, I was kind of out of the loop, but the most recent one.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Well, now you're wearing a firefight uniform engine and then squad again, career calls,
ones that you really remember.
Hmm.
I guess the ones that I really remembered is nothing glamorous.
It's you know, one that ones that stick out as your first fire, right?
I remember the boss and I remember him talking to me, like you want to get in there and just
put the fire out and he's kind of telling you, relax.
He's telling you, look at the flames.
He's kind of talking you through it.
Like those are things I remember.
I remember, I don't know what we, how, how graphic we can get.
I remember my first couple fires.
I'd never had people jump.
That was, that was a people jumping out of windows.
That was a, a strange feeling.
Or even if you're outside, you're waiting for water and you could hear the crowd.
Everyone go, Ooh.
And you're like, you know, some, you know, people are jumping.
That kind of, those things kind of stick out to me.
What else?
I don't know if you're looking for good stories, man.
I'm just talking.
Anything anywhere you want to go, I sit there in the door.
It's like a lot of the, the earlier stuff, that's kind of what sticks into my mind.
Cause after a while, everything is kind of like, you know, so it kind of blends together.
I would say this, like some of the, like some of the best people and the smartest people
I've met in the, like, on the fire department, like I've met some really rock stars and really
smart people, really brave people, man, who think of things that I didn't even, I don't
even think about.
It's like, you have people on this job or like chemists and stuff like that.
Like there's some real brilliant people working on the fire department, man.
And I'm glad I've had the pleasure of working in fire houses with some of these people.
Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned first fire.
I think one of the first fires I had in my first department, I had to buy cake and ice
cream and then I can't remember some of the other ones.
I think maybe steak and lobster was one of them, which was really expensive for a pro
be with almost no money.
And then Orange County, you had your t-shirt ripped off you.
So what's the tradition when you're first fire in your department?
There's no tradition.
Maybe it's not no tradition.
It's my fire.
They kind of tell you, you did your job.
Shut up.
I like that more.
It's cheaper.
You know, but even though they don't say it, they know, like they know, you know, they
know a big thing when you get sent to an engine, they want to see what you're made of.
They want to see your stuff.
And like once guys see that you're not going to guys want to make sure you don't, you're
not going to give up, you know, you don't got to be the greatest in the world, but they
got to make sure you're not going to give up.
And once you kind of show what you got, they ease up a little bit, a little bit.
Are you still at the firefighter rank at the moment?
Yeah, still at the firefighter rank.
I stayed that for 14 years and I love that position.
And I just, you know, I mean, I moved around so that kind of took me away from the draw
of promotional tests.
But when I really evaluated myself, I still absolutely love going inside, going on roofs
and cutting, you know, being on the tool and extrication.
So I just never lost that desire to just stay in that one seat.
But certainly, I don't know if it's the same with you, but down here with the high turnover,
you know, a lot of these departments, they're 50% or so, like at five years or less, and
people are kind of racing to promote.
I asked Al Benjamin this, who was on the show quite a while ago now, real, real senior man,
you know, rescue legend.
But you don't hear that often about the concept of the senior man.
Now I know, you know, you probably don't consider yourself that, but you're starting to get
towards that point now.
Talk to me about the value of staying at the firefighter rank up to this point.
Yes.
So one thing I also loved about the firehouses, everyone respects the men, I mean, respects
the bosses, but the men run the house.
You know, the men run the house, everything gets ran by the senior man, the higher ups
before it goes to, you know, the bosses where they have to like, you know, put pen to paper.
But like, if you're in a really good firehouse, like it's got to be cakewalk as a boss, right?
The men make sure that meals are done, make sure the house is clean, make sure the drills
are getting done.
Of course, the bosses have their say in everything.
But it's huge because, say for instance, like my company, I mean, now it's we're in a weird
place of transition where a lot of the people with time are retiring.
It just is what it is.
They're leaving.
And it's kind of like there's so much stuff that I haven't seen, so many things I haven't
experienced yet.
And these guys have all that knowledge that they could kind of like, you know, pass on
and then, you know, they're leaving.
So unfortunately, the job turns over quick.
But you know, you know how it is, man.
You just got to get on the rig and do what you have to do.
But yeah, the senior man is a huge, so much value senior men bring because they just seen
so much.
And they know like a big thing with being a firefighter, you don't have to be the strongest
guy.
You just got to, you got to be smart.
You got to be senior guys, you'll be pulling ceilings, breaking your back, pulling ceilings.
And you see a senior guy with a cigar in his mouth just coming like nothing, you know,
pull a room.
It's experience, man.
It's nothing like.
Yeah, no, it is amazing, you know, whether it's a, you know, a captain or an engineer
or a firefighter.
And I think this is the thing too, that I know lots of people with lots of time on that
aren't, you know, that aren't senior man quality.
They've just been there for a long time.
And then, you know, there's also people that have come from different departments that
have, you know, when a company with humility that are incredibly invaluable and they may
only have, you know, three years on your department.
But that experience and that knowledge sharing and that humility, I think is so important.
And it just, it kind of breaks my heart a little bit, you know, when people are barely
at that firefighter level, now they're riding up as an engineer.
Now they're getting, you know, sorry, they're promoted to an engineer after three, two years.
And now they get to ride up as an officer and you've got like four years in the front
seat.
That's, you know, it's terrifying.
So I think pumping the brakes on that and just being proud of the firefighter position
is that you're in no rush.
And I get the financial side.
I understand it.
But did you dream of a certain pay raise when you were in Fire Academy or were you dreaming
about saving lives?
So I love it when, you know, when I meet firefighters that just aren't in a rush, that are just
enjoying that position like I did.
That's exactly it.
Not in a rush.
The test was coming out.
I did start studying.
I'm always the type of guy to take every opportunity that comes my way.
So like even with the paramedic, like I take every anything.
But when the test came, you know, COVID and stuff happened, things got pushed away and
I just had time to think and I was really starting my business.
And I don't know.
I don't know if this sounds bad.
I didn't have any drive to be a boss.
I didn't have any drive to do it.
There's nothing against them.
You know, I just didn't want to do it.
I'm having a good time to find my new firehouse.
I'm learning a lot.
I'm still learning.
I just didn't have to drive to do it.
But I felt like if I needed to this thing's I'm going to I hope I don't regret this.
Like I could be studying the books, but I don't know.
I could be I could be researching marketing, researching things that are going to help me
in my business, which I really have a big passion for business.
So I was like, you know what, I want to bet on myself and I want to kind of like focus
there, you know, I'll take the next test when it comes out.
Yeah, I don't think you're going to regret it at all.
I mean, it's always going to be there.
But I mean, for me, you know, where we are, you know, you're not looking at, you know,
brownstones and high rises.
You're looking at, you know, single story family dwellings, either side of about 1500
square feet.
So when we pull up on a fire, you know, me and my partner are going to be the ones pulling
hose and make an entry and going in the engineers at the panel and the L.T. is going to be on
the radio.
So of those three positions, I want to be the one on the hose going in.
I don't want to be standing looking at a gauge and I don't want to be talking dispatch.
That's just me.
So you know, so that that's just it.
And it kept me going.
And like you said, you know, when you've got 14 years on, you're like, I barely seen anything.
That's 14 years.
And yes, I've seen a lot, but nothing compared to my 30 year captain, for example.
So that's what kept me going is I don't want to be taken away from a position where I've
got the highest chance of being hands on and truly helping someone in crisis when I've
got so much to learn still.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
We mentioned your business.
So as a side note, before we dive into into what you're doing now, I love the concept
of people forging a second hobby, you know, alternate entrepreneurial project in a business,
whatever you have, how much you commit for two reasons.
Firstly, the identity reason, because we are firefighters is what we do.
And it's absolutely hands down the greatest profession on planet Earth.
But it's not who we are.
And so when you create another project, you're kind of kind of breaking that facade a little
bit because you are Thomas, who is a firefighter and also an entrepreneur.
But also when you do transition out, it's an injury, you got fired, you made it to retirement.
Now you have that to transition to.
And I think one of the worst things that we do in our profession is we go all in on the
job.
And then one day the bay door closes behind us and we're like, well, now what?
So now I just want to kind of preface this conversation with those two observations.
I love the fact of anyone doing something else on the side, as long as it doesn't obviously
become more important than the fire service while they're in uniform.
So talk to me about that.
You were studying business when you were young.
You become an EMT, arguably a paramedic and then a firefighter.
Talk to me about the creation of Burnbox.
So yeah, so back to when I first got to my first firehouse, there was a couple of gentlemen
there who had their own firefighter products.
I don't know if you've seen like that Halligan bottle opener.
I worked with a gentleman who owns that company.
Few guys had their own fabrication companies.
Guys are making tools.
There's a few tools on the rig that some guys jimmy rigged together for different type of
hydrogen plug.
Firefighters are the most creative bunch of people and every firefighter has three jobs.
So I just got on Instagram one day and I'm searching firefighter owned products.
And then I saw so many different brands where guys have apparel companies, guys making tools
like wedges and shove knives.
There's guys doing cups.
There's guys making pliers.
So many different things came up when I was looking up firefighter owned products.
I thought it'd be really cool if I could like curate all these products and like ship them
out.
The goal is if I could get one day get 10,000 people signed up and let's say Joe Fireman's
making a tool in his garage and I can get the exposure.
I can get that out to 10,000 people.
I thought that'd be really cool.
So that's kind of what started it.
And that's kind of what the goal is to help support firefighter owned businesses.
I had Trevor Williams on the show from Williams Key.
And firstly, my god, that guy's life story is amazing.
And he's a good looking dude as well.
He's what women think of when they think of a firefighter calendar.
Not my ugly ass.
But yeah, so that's a perfect example though.
You get a guy who comes from the carpentry world and locksmithing and then he finagles
a tool to start getting the keyless entry into some of these places without destroying
their doors.
And now you have all the products that he's had.
So talk to me about some of the companies that you've interacted with that you've used
in the burn box that you really like.
Yeah, Trevor is an absolute beast, man.
He doesn't stop.
He doesn't stop working.
He's always working on something new, but he's great.
I've worked with him a couple of times.
I've worked with a few apparel companies like Hook and Irons apparel, those guys I work
with a lot.
Axehead Threads, they're pretty popular print shop.
As far as tools go, Job Town Tools.
He's another FDNY fireman, retired.
He makes a lot of tools.
Who else?
Oh man, I can go on and on.
I work with Modus Fire Rescue.
Who else I work with?
Oh man, I'm just drawing a blank.
But I've worked with many firefighter owned companies.
The beauty is just, I love it whenever I send a box out and customers get it and they say,
oh, I didn't know this existed.
Or I send the box out and I get an email saying, hey, I used this thing twice already.
Thank you.
That's what keeps me going, man.
That's the goal.
Learn the word and provide discovery.
I think it was about five, six years ago now.
I think it was Christmas.
My wife and kids got me a present and it was a little crate.
And inside were four beer glasses that said, gearing Dog's Bollocks Brewery, which is,
Dog's Bollocks is something we say when it's really good in England.
And then there was the mats and then there was a couple of bags of nuts or something.
There was such a unique, interesting gift.
Because I mean, especially now when we have Amazon and everything, how many of us just
buy things straight away?
So talk to me about the concept of Burnbox and what people would be receiving every month.
Okay.
So basically what I try to do is give you something that you can use every month, like
try to give you a functional tool or piece of gear.
So I've done fire hoods, I've done pliers, I've done multi tools.
We've done shove knives, Williams key, we've done webbing.
We've done, I try to give you something, at least one thing that you could use that day
when you get your box.
I try to make it a satisfying package.
So I also try to do a piece of apparel.
So that could be a t-shirt, a hat or a belt.
And then you've got your other items like, you know, your key chains, your tumblers,
your coasters, your bags and stuff like that.
I try to make it a satisfying package every month.
I don't want to be the tool of the month.
I don't want to be the shirt of the month.
I try to get a couple of brands, a couple of things to send.
It's about a 55 to $100, 55 to $65 box, but it's valued like 75 to 100 depending on the
month.
And the goal is just to spread discovery, functionality, and it's another way to support
other firefighter-owned businesses.
Talk to me about from day one and how you grew it.
Like how did you go from having this idea to actually putting it in action?
So I had the idea for like two years before I actually pulled the trigger on it.
I had that idea for two years.
I didn't pull the trigger on it.
One day, you know, I made a change and I said, you know, enough's enough.
I used to do a lot of party and I was one of the guys in the firehouse who liked to
always hang out.
I quit boozing and stuff and I started focusing, trying to get focused.
So I started the burn box just to keep busy.
And I started it.
I'll be honest with you, I didn't think anybody was going to subscribe.
I didn't think, you know, or more than a month.
And then I just tried to be strategic.
I tried to partner with brands that had a following.
I tried to do cross promotion.
Brands that like, so three different brands have 20,000 followers.
I figured if I put them all in my box, I'd have 60,000 people potentially looking at
it.
So I did all that.
It was a, I had that deal for a long time.
It took, I'll be honest, it took a while for me to get the strength to launch it, you know,
because who wants to fail?
And that goes out to anybody who has a dream, wants to start something, you know, just go
for it.
But that's what I did.
And first month I got 40 people signed up.
I thought I was going to have more, had 40 people and then like every month it just kept
doubling.
And I think we're rounding out about maybe 2,200, 2,200 right now.
So it's, it's doing okay.
It's getting harder to find products the more I grow, but it's a challenge and I'm having
fun.
Now, what about the, the curve?
Because for example, when I started the podcast, you know, it went from one download to two
downloads to four downloads, you know, and that there's, there's this, this facade of
overnight success, you know, in, in business, in podcasts.
Casting and everything, you know, and then you look, for example, you see someone who's
in three films that year and you're like, wow, they must have, you know, they got their
big break.
And then, you know, five months later, you see them on some Disney TV show and oh, oh,
they've been acting for 20 years, you know, and it's just that that was their day.
So because it's very, very discouraging, I think, because we are sold this kind of over
overnight success facade and it can, it can really kind of take the wind out of people's
sales when the first month they see 40 orders, for example.
So what, what was, what kept you going if you had higher expectations than what originally
happened?
Well, the main thing is, I think if you're going to start something, it's, I think you
could probably attest to this because I'm sure recording a podcast consistently isn't,
you know, easy, but consistency is huge.
And I guess I want to say the word fortitude because it's going to, you have to have a
passion for it because when it gets hard, that passions, what's going to keep you going?
Because if not, I'll be lying if I said I didn't have months where I just didn't want
to do it anymore.
The day before shipping a product is missing or broken.
You know, what are you going to do?
I got to find a couple hundred of D, you know, it's not all it's, it's that passion that's
going to keep you going when it's, when it doesn't look good.
So if you're going to start something, just make sure it's something you're passionate
about.
I don't know how to do that, but I think that that passion is what's going to carry you
through when things aren't looking good because you're going to have a lot of bad days.
It might be a strip of like a week or two in a row, just nothing's going right.
You know, and everything in your body is telling you to shut this down.
You got to be passionate about it and to keep going.
And cause I've had, I'm fortunate that I have a job, so I was able to take risks, more risk
with the business than I needed to because I, you know, my family was going to eat no
matter what.
I had to have a job, right?
So, you know, maybe the first year wasn't the best year, but it was, it was a learning.
I learned, you know, I was building proof of concept.
I was learning the ins and outs of stuff and I was fortunate enough that I have a job where
I could, you know, my family's fine.
So that would be a piece of advice.
Just make sure if there's something that you're into, just be passionate about it because
that passion is what's going to carry you through the days you don't feel like getting
up.
You don't feel like sending those emails, you know, dealing with unhappy customers.
One month I had sent out a couple hundred boxes, the wrong shirts.
Everyone got the wrong shirt size.
Like everything in me wanted to say, this is it, you know?
But it's, you know, just got to keep going.
I do.
I actually literally, I mean, recently told, you know, turned to my son or my wife who's
ever around at that moment, you know, when it's 1130 at night, midnight, and I'm still
finishing editing because I've had technical problems and I'm, you know, come hell or high
war, I'm going to put this podcast on the same days that I've said, you know, for the
last seven years now.
And I just turned to them and say, this is, this is what people don't see.
This is why, like you said, their consistency.
It's easy to be consistent on the good days.
Can you be consistent on the shit ones?
That's so true, man.
And it's also like, like you said, you do all this work for this many years and then
people see you and you're, oh, you're an overnight success.
Like they have no idea.
Like a lot of people, like this subscription, a lot of people told me they had the idea,
but they just, you know, it's a lot of work.
How do you get all these vendors and all those products?
And I would sit up to three, four in the morning.
I have notebooks of just me just planning this stuff out and no one sees that.
No one, no one, no one ever know.
I have those, those books of the weeks I stood up trying to make, trying to run the numbers
and make it work, you know?
Yeah.
Building boxes, you know?
Well, like they say, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
So I think when you, when you, when you actually start something like this, you kind of get
a new respect for people that have built things from nothing.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Yep.
All right.
Well, I want to go to some closing questions and obviously we'll talk about where people
can get the, the burn box.
But before we do, is there a book or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Oh man.
So I'm not, I'll be honest, I'm not a big book guy, but there are two books that I've
read recently and then not, they're nothing fancy, nothing, but there's an, an entrepreneur
out there, Alex Homozi.
He has a book called a hundred million dollars offers.
And then he has another book called a hundred million dollar leads.
And that's, it's all about sales stuff.
Those are the two recent things I read and it's kind of like changed my perspective.
That's for anybody who's thinking about entrepreneurship and stuff.
He breaks everything down in an easy way to consume it.
Like hard concepts, he breaks it down and a lot of those things in his book I was doing,
but I didn't know I was doing it.
So it was interesting.
I meant to ask you, you just reminded me, what about marketing?
What's worked for you and what hasn't.
So in the beginning, cross promotion was big, just partnering with other brands and just
putting a bunch of people together with, you know, strategically that worked.
But eventually a plateaued where I had to get a marketing agency.
I wanted to learn how to do marketing myself.
I like, I took a course and everything to run my own ads, but the issue I'm having is
time I have three boys, I'm married, just got to a new, new a firehouse.
I'm running a business.
I just didn't have the time to learn the way I wanted to.
So I ended up hiring a marketing agency and they kind of been helping me out with that
for the most part.
I found, and this might be different because I don't put out a product per se.
I mean, it is, but you know, it's a free podcast, but the, I've got up to, I think it's like
168 something thousand people on Instagram, for example, community.
I hate that word followers because no one's following me.
I'm not, I'm not follow worthy.
So the community is there, but every time I put something out of value, that's informative
to say, you know, Hey, look at this thing or, you know, Hey, there's this fundraiser
coming up.
It's like crickets, but you know, you put the, the kitten on the skateboard video out
there and everyone loses their mind.
And so the algorithms are so shifted.
So what I've realized is that, you know, this, again, this facades that, Oh man, if you know,
this one influencer, if they do one post and you're going to blow up, like, no, no.
So to me, I don't know if you've had this, one of the most powerful marketing tools is
back to word of mouth.
It's trust.
If people like what you do or what you sell, they will tell other people, but obviously
that's not going to blow up.
That's a much slower burn.
That's the truth, man.
You, you're dropping gems because that's another thing.
So sometimes I get people who want to give me products for the boxes, which is great.
But some people like their products, try to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
So you know, you got to let them down easy.
Hey, say, listen, I don't think it's going to be a good fit, but like, I have to make
sure I keep goodwill with my customers.
I can't just put anything in the boxes.
Like it has to be something I can see myself using or being functional.
And it, cause if I don't have, keep goodwill with my customers, they're not going to recommend
me.
They're not going to tell anybody else to try it.
So yeah, it's what you said is very true.
Word of mouth is huge, you know?
Absolutely.
All right.
So moving on to the closing questions.
What about movies and documentaries?
Any of those that you love?
Oh man, I don't really have anything off the top of my mind, man.
Hmm.
Movies or documentaries?
I don't know if it's, it doesn't really pertain to business.
I have, I'll be honest with you, I haven't really watched anything recently, man.
I think the last documentary I watched was like the social dilemma.
It has to do with like, you know, the way social media works, but I don't know if that's,
that's going to add any value to anybody.
No, I think it will.
That's a great recommendation.
I mean, the fact that you've got these designers, these programmers that created this software
that now they have to shield their own children from because it's so damn effective.
If that's not a powerful message, I don't know what is.
Yeah.
I think one eye opening thing I had to realize is that I thought for a while, I didn't realize
that we are the commodity that Facebook sells.
Like I thought it was the other way around.
Like they're showing us stuff.
No.
I didn't see your call and say, you know, I need my product to go in front of X amount
of people, you know?
And that's how, yeah, I just took, I didn't, it woke me up.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Actually, while we're sitting here, you know, and we both in professions that serve, you
know, and both trying to provide products that add value to the world, it makes it even
harder to understand that unethical business model, you know, whether it's social media
and kind of mining people's personal information or whether it's selling Oxycontin or McDonald's
or whatever it is that, you know, people can sleep at night, counting their money, knowing
that they've made people's lives worse.
And then back to what we talked about earlier, I had an aha moment recently, like, oh, that
that's also part of the mental health crisis.
The reason why some people are okay with Americans dying from their products is because they
themselves are probably going through a mental health struggle, but they're just billionaires,
so no one's really paying attention.
Yeah.
It's so many levels of this stuff, man.
And it just makes you feel so small, you know, compared to these machines that are out there,
machines.
Yeah.
I think I'll put this to you.
I, I really think that there is a paradigm shift towards, what's that term people use?
Oh my goodness.
I'm blank on the term.
Anyway, you know, back to the family owned butcher or baker or, you know, the coffee
shop or the brewery and places where people can sit down and talk.
Because you think about the American shopping mall, it wasn't really, I mean, I know that
teenagers would hang out there, but it wasn't really a place that people would go and interact.
They would go, they'd sift through racks of stuff and shelves of stuff.
They'd fill carrier bags and then they'd walk out a lot broker than they walked in.
So I hope bespoke, that's that word bespoke.
So that kind of artisan crafts person, I think there's a real desire to go back to that.
I think like industry got so, so big that it lost all personality.
And so I think that's why you're seeing a lot of these.
I just shared a video the other day of a coffee company that's owned by a family that had
three special needs kids.
And so every branch of this coffee store employs people with, you know, autism and Down syndrome
and some of these other things.
What a beautiful, you know, social business model.
That I truly think is what people are yearning for.
So everyone like you and other people out there that are trying to start something out
from the ground that's coming from a good place and is small.
I hope this is our time again now, because I think that, you know, as the Macy's and
all these other places start falling, because they are, you know, I think it's time to regain
that small village, you know, community that we had a few decades ago.
Yeah, I agree.
I feel like with social media, everything's just so fast paced with like a TikTok culture
where everything is just fast.
Everything's just fast.
Way we operate and you know, it's good to have, you know, companies, businesses that
have a soul, you know, a face and a soul behind it because it means more, you know?
Absolutely.
All right.
So, you know, great people, is there a person that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders, military and associated professions of the
world?
Yeah, I think where it comes right now is Bill Waters.
He's the owner of Job Town Tools.
He's a retired firefighter.
He's out in, I'm not sure if he might have moved.
I'm not sure.
He's out in Long Island as well.
Brilliant.
I will look him up.
Yeah, I'll see if I message him.
Yeah, please.
Excellent.
Thank you.
All right.
Well, in the very last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you
and Burnbox, what do you do to decompress?
Oh, what do I do to decompress?
I don't.
That's my problem.
I don't.
I will say something I'm doing now to decompress.
So my kids, my boys, like they're into this.
Like I used to watch a show.
Don't laugh.
Don't judge me.
They used to watch a show, Pokemon, when I was a kid.
So like they're at their age where they're doing that and kind of they're into it.
So whenever they're out playing and stuff, I kind of like sitting in there hanging with
them and kind of help me relax.
Reminds me of simpler times, you know, I buy them cards so they can open up.
They kind of want to do like a YouTube video.
So I'm trying to help them with that.
I guess spending time with my kids, I guess.
Love it.
They're not running around like lunatics.
My son got into Pokemon, but I don't think he ever understood how to play it.
And I sure as hell didn't.
So we used to just make up games with it.
We were doing it so wrong, but you know, he'd always win as well.
He'd always give me all the crap cards and he'd figure out how to have to get one.
So even without the right rules, I still lost.
But it was quality time, just like you said.
That's how I spent most of my vacation.
Whenever they finished their homework, they'll grab some cards and we'll just sit and hang
out.
Brilliant.
All right.
Well then for people listening, where can they find Burnbox and then where can they
find you as well on social media?
Oh, yeah.
So I kind of have, it's the same because I manage the social media.
So the Burnbox, the underscore Burn underscore box on Instagram and on Facebook, it's at
the ad symbol at the Burnbox sub.
And that's kind of just the Instagram page.
I had plenty of photos of the stuff that I feature.
You know, you could check out the comments and everything.
It's legit.
A lot of people think this thing is run by some huge, is this me?
My wife helps me with customer service and we have a team packing.
It's not a major operation, you know?
It's not.
And if anybody's interested and, you know, if you're a firefighter or first responder
and you have a product you think would be cool, you know, just shoot me a DM.
And yeah, that's it.
Thanks for having me.
I'm really glad to be here.
I've been a huge fan.
I appreciate you taking the time.