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This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

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I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and have used their products ever since.

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From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

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responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've worked for.

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Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they are

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also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance Project.

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We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier. I ended up buying real

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ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been my ride or die through

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Murph the last few years as well. But one area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous

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sponsorship spots is their brick and mortar element. They were predominantly an online

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company up till more recently but now they are approaching 100 stores all over the US.

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My local store is here in Gainesville Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts you see

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online are applied also in the stores. So as I mentioned 511 is offering you 15% off every

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purchase that you make but I do want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount

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especially around holiday times. But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order

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or in the stores every time you make a purchase. And if you want to hear more about 511, who they

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stand for and who works with them, listen to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with

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511 regional director Will Ayers. I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new sponsor for the

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Behind the Shield podcast that is Transcend. Now for many of you listening you are probably

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working the same brutal shifts that I did for 14 years. Suffering from sleep deprivation,

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body composition challenges, mental health challenges, libido, hair loss etc. Now when

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it comes to the world of hormone replacement and peptide therapy what I have seen is a shift from

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doctors telling us that we were within normal limits which was definitely incorrect all the

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way to the other way now where men's clinics are popping up left right and center. So I myself wanted

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to find a reputable company that would do an analysis of my physiology and then offer

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supplementations without ramming for example hormone replacement therapy down my throat.

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Now I came across Transcend because they have an altruistic arm and they were a big reason why the

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7x project I was a part of was able to proceed because of their generous donations. They also

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have the Transcend foundations where they are actually putting military and first responders

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through some of their therapies at no cost to the individual. So my own personal journey so far

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filled in the online form, went to Quest, got blood drawn and a few days later I'm talking to

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one of their wellness professionals as they guide me through my results and the supplementation that

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they suggest. In my case specifically because I transitioned out the fire service five years ago

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and be very diligent with my health my testosterone was actually in a good place. So I went down the

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peptide route and some other supplements to try and maximize my physiology knowing full well the

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damage that 14 years of shift work has done. Now I also want to underline because I think this is

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very important that each of the therapies they offer they will talk about the pros and cons.

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So for example a lot of first responders and shift work our testosterone will be low but sometimes

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nutrition, exercise and sleep can offset that on its own. So this company is not going to try and

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push you down a path especially if it's one that you can't come back from. So whether it's libido,

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brain fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, this is definitely one of the most powerful

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tools in the toolbox. So to learn more go to transcendcompany.com or listen to episode 808

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of the Behind the Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast as always my name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on

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the show retired Anaheim firefighter Rick Cheatham. Now as you will hear this is such an important and

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powerful conversation. Rick is courageously vulnerable and transparent when it comes to

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some of his mental health journeys early in the fire service career. The murder of his son and

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the ripple effect of that on him and his family. The freak accident after his retirement that

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paralyzed him. His spiritual journey, overcoming grief, the mental health tools that work for him

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and so much more. Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week

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please just take a moment go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single five star rating truly does elevate this podcast

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therefore making it easier for others to find and this is a free library of over 900 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said I introduce to you Rick Cheatham. Enjoy.

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Well Rick I want to say firstly this is amazing. I worked in Anaheim I think it was 15 plus years

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ago now and occasionally I've got sent to station three or I take some overtime there and that's

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usually where our paths cross but now we're doing this bizarre thing called podcasting sitting face

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to face on a computer so I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you,

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thank you for having me I appreciate it. So where on planet earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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Well this afternoon I happen to be sitting in my house in Nashville Tennessee where I retired

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about three and a half years ago. Beautiful well before we even jump into the whole lifeline thing

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so many of certainly it seemed like Anaheim specifically went to Montana, Tennessee.

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So what is it that you found about where you live now that you love and why do you love it

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in comparison to California? First of all my family was out here my sister and my mom moved out here

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I don't know 20 years ago something like that 18 20 years ago so my family had been coming out

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here for several years just visiting and we fell in love with it. The people were great that the

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scenery around here I mean it's just absolutely beautiful I mean there's trees everywhere.

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The only problem with this place is it gets a little cold. My winters here are not not what I

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anticipated after having my injury just seems to set it off a little bit more being cold but other

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than that my family brought me here the scenery brought me here and in a lot of ways freedom

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brought me here. Leaving California at a time when I did it seemed like our freedoms were being stepped

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on and manipulated in such a way that as much as I hated a little bit of the

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but as much as I hated to leave I just needed to get out of California.

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Absolutely it's funny people you know back home talk about you know America through let's say

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you know the the British lens and their media and we are such an incredible tapestry of beautiful

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humans but you know sometimes a few people get into I'm using this term very loosely leadership

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positions and their shitty decisions can negatively impact or divide these communities of wonderful

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humans that up until that point were actually you know thriving next to each other.

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Absolutely absolutely you know spending my entire life in in California I got to see a lot of the

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good along with the bad but overall it was primarily good I had a great upbringing great

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life coming up in Southern California and you know some things change there towards the end and

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I guess that's just the nature of the beast things always do change

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but I felt it was just best for me to to leave at the time and come out here where my family was and

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just get a new start. Absolutely well let's start the very beginning of your timeline then so tell

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me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic what your parents did

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and how many siblings. Okay I was born in San Jose California so I was born out in Northern California

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and that's where my my dad was from and my mom was was from Washington and and happened to move

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down to Northern California and that's where she met my dad in high school.

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My mom and dad were very young when they got married my mom was 16 my dad was 17

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they had me at 17 and 18 so it was it was a pretty quick little rendezvous for them I just found out

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here within the last two or three years that my mom and dad were married after six months of dating

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each other and I thought that was rather interesting because my wife and I got married

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after six months of dating ourselves but my dad was my dad was a preacher so I grew up in a very

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very religious household upbringing my mom like I said had moved down from Washington met my dad in

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high school and my mom's dad my grandfather ended up not keeping a job or for whatever reason

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had to move back and so my mom and dad decided it would be better for my mom to stay so they stayed

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they ran off to Reno got married and the rest is history as you say one interesting side note to

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all that is I do have I was raised with a brother and a sister I have a brother that is

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I have a brother that is nine and a half months younger than I am so we grew up pretty close and

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then I have a sister that was several years behind us both and she was like seven years behind me

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but in 2020 I got a phone call from my dad and he said you might want to sit down and I thought oh

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dear I said are you dying and he said no but you might want to sit down for this I've got something

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to share with you so he shared with me that I had another sister that I didn't know about so at

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you know 2020 on my anniversary no doubt I got a phone call from my dad explaining this and

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it turns out I have a sister that is eight months older than I am so it's kind of an interesting

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dynamic three kids my dad had three kids and we were all within a year and a half of each other

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but that's a side note to how many kids are in my family my brother is the one I grew up with my

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my my my sister was several years younger than I was we grew up in a really religious environment

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you know church three times a week of course when your dad's the preacher there's a lot of

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expectations on you as the preacher's kid those expectations were not always met with the most

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positive outcomes I challenged and tested a lot of my I wouldn't say I was testing my upbringing or

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my religious background because I bought into it 100% I was I was sold out and but I also had a

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wide wild side so I ended up leaving from high school and went off to the military and came back

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and sowed my wild oats for a little bit and after that ended up meeting my wife

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at our church where I was attending in Brea California and interesting story with her is that

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I actually prayed for her very very specific prayer in fact from her her height her weight her

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her skin complexion her hair tone everything about her and I think I the reason I prayed so vividly

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and specifically was because I knew that I was kind of slow and probably wouldn't recognize the

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woman of my dreams had I not had a visual imprint on my mind of what that would look like and two

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weeks after that prayer my wife walked into my life and lo and behold she walked into my life on

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a blind date for me so so it was a very very dynamic time just young in my in my life and

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having this opportunity to have a wife after a prayer that was very specific it kind of just

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opened the door for me to realize that there's something bigger than myself out there didn't

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always know exactly what that meant didn't know exactly how that looked I looked at everything

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through the lens of my religious upbringing and my religious beliefs and in my particular

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denomination those kind of things praying for a woman and then have her show up in your doorstep

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two weeks later wasn't always a realistic understanding for most people in my denomination

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but it kind of changed who I was and and and where my thought was headed when it comes to

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God and you know a higher being and he became real he became real to me at that point and so

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it was no longer where I was tied up in my dad or my mom's religion I was more connected to my

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own faith and ask things what have it I started questioning a lot of things and ended up questioning

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and ended up questioning my questioning myself out of my denomination so I ended up leaving

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that religious organization still love the people dearly I'm so thankful for the upbringing that I

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did have because they taught me so much about just how to how to understand the Bible in a way to

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always ask questions sometimes I think they might have thought I asked too many questions but I was

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raised on the on the idea that the more questions you ask the better able you are to understand

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and so I took that philosophy with me all the way through and finally ended up

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leaving that denomination jumped into another one for a while and and just didn't really find

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a my niche or my my my need there and it was during the time that my son ended up passing

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away that my wife and I just finally pulled away from religion altogether and just started focusing

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on our relationship with God so in a nutshell I went from California to Nevada back to California

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getting in the fire service started working towards that in the late 80s was affirmative action was

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real heavy back then and didn't know that I would be able to get on at that point but I had just

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finished a a seminar type curriculum with my wife and it was basically

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taking real estate agents and teaching them my wife was trying to become a realist realtor

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and teaching them how to weed out all of the looky-loos that you might come across as you're

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selling homes so it's just a way to streamline the process of finding out who was committed

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and who was not committed the name of the course was life and career management training and what

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they taught in that course was the power of commitment and once I went through that course

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it became very clear to me that being a victim of at that time affirmative action where people

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were telling me there's no way you can be a fireman you're you're number one you're you're too old

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you're too white and you're too male and you're probably not going to ever

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break into the fire service like the old days when they were allowing people to come in and

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maybe it wasn't fair at the time I don't know but I know that for me after taking that course

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it became very clear that it didn't matter what was going on or anything around me as far as that

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was trying to keep me back the power of commitment taught me that there was no doubt that if you put

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your mind to it and you focus and you're determined and you're disciplined you can achieve anything you

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want so six years later I got a phone call from anaheim fire department and they offered me a job

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they were my 28th or 29th department that I had tested with took me six years I had 28 or 29

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thanks but no thank letters and finally I got the one from anaheim offering me a job and it was the

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dream career of my life I mean I do have to thank there was one man in particular that was very

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instrumental in helping me get that job and his name was Tommy Denson and Tommy Denson I don't

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know if you were there when at the time or if you'd already left or if you knew of Tommy but Tommy was

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a member of the church where I attended and so we became very very close and he put in a good word

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for me and that good word was put into a man by the name of Jerry Austin and Jerry ended up hiring me

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I think that name sounds familiar I want to say maybe Terry talked about him before I'm not sure

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but um when you were talking about the affirmative actions it's it's an interesting conversation

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because back in the day obviously you know that was that was a pendulum swinging all the way

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to the other side and it happens so so many times and so many topics from you know certain

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departments definitely arguably almost deliberately making sure that they weren't hiring you know the

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minority groups whatever they look like through to the dragnetting of you know the knee-jerk

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reaction to okay just go get me a hundred of this kind of person a hundred of that kind of person

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so we can fill the quotas and when you fast forward to today the the beautiful answer to that is

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mentorship programs and we got an amazing one that one of my friends started here in Ocala Chris Hickman

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but you go to those underserved populations that maybe there are legitimate barriers to entry these

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some some of these young boys and girls can't put themselves through a fire academy um and you give

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them this free training and then there are scholarships of fire academies and then

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departments way into hire that is how you positively impact diversity so you go into these

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communities and you find the kids that would be great firefighters not just find a whole bunch of

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kids because they look a certain way and i think that was the real disconnect from that initial

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knee-jerk um that i hope you know we're really starting to crack that nut now is whatever that

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group is that was underserved before find the incredible candidates amongst them and then use

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that tool as well to say to other kids okay you tried it but you know you don't want to be

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a firefighter now and you learned that that's phenomenal too you know absolutely served a

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purpose but that's when you bring great candidates in and then you basically eradicate that animosity

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that it was you know let's be honest that's what really rubbed people the wrong way during that time

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was you had people that looked the part for whatever they were trying to fill but couldn't do the job

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that's that's the thing so by by finding the best candidates and really reaching into these

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underserved communities that to me is the 2024 answer to the diversity issue

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i agree we had uh very very strong candidates coming up when i was just coming on and um

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by far i think anaheim did just that they they they did everything they could to hire the best

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that they could now of course there was always those that slipped through the cracks and you

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usually found those out either through the tower or when they got on the floor and they started

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their probationary period but for the most part when i came on uh it was all a bunch of very

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talented individuals that uh you know i i just knew that for me to get on i i was going to have to

198
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uh not buy into the the the predominant

199
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the predominant thought at the time was uh sorry man but white men can't get a job with civil

200
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service anymore and southern california was just littered with that at the time and i know for me

201
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i never did i never bought into it and thankfully i didn't buy into it because of that course that

202
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i had taken and some of the management training that they had instilled in me in that two and a

203
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half years that my wife and i were heavily involved with them so i was able to sneak through the crack

204
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if you want if you will uh just through a determination that um this is what i want to do

205
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i'd come out of construction and had been a general contractor for for many years and i knew

206
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that i had a value that i could add to the department any department no matter what it

207
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:58,440
where it was or or or when i knew that my background in construction was a huge value

208
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to any organization i just had to get my foot in the door and prove it and thankfully anaheim

209
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:11,720
let me get my foot in the door and uh i i hope that everybody was happy with my construction

210
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background and what i was able to accomplish as a truck captain and teaching in the academy and

211
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teaching building construction throughout might have even taught building construction to you i

212
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don't remember i'm sure you did i'm sure you did that was funny when i came out of the academy i

213
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went to fire school in orlando and then my son's mother my ex wanted to move down to miami and it

214
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:42,360
was the same thing oh you'll never get hired down there unless you speak spanish you're a paramedic

215
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and i remember thinking well i just need one job you can give away all the other ones to other

216
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people i just need just one you know and then fast forward four months i was working for hire

217
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leah so there we go yeah i guess you know that you hear the you hear the chatter a lot

218
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uh all these competing voices they're everywhere and you can listen to them and then just evaluate

219
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,960
it and determine if that's going to work for you i think unfortunately for many people they listen

220
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,960
to that chatter and they listen to the thoughts that they have in their own mind over what they

221
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can or can't do and you buy into it pretty soon you believe in it and once you believe a lie

222
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uh you're pretty much guaranteed to facilitate that reality and a lot of people came away being

223
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victims of the fire service you know it's too hard i you know i always tease my my my copper buddies

224
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and you know say that was an easier test to take back then when i came on anybody could be a cop

225
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,400
but they weren't hiring very many firemen and the ones that they did uh they were not

226
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,680
hiring many people and they were not hiring many people and the ones that they did uh

227
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there was there were certain criteria that they were looking for so there was a time when i might

228
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,320
even have thought about just saying forget it i can't do it i'll just become a cop but uh i knew

229
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:14,760
being a cop was not going to be an answer for me i was not cop mentality i don't think i have the

230
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:21,960
really is you know we both need each other thank god yeah nothing like uh the the the teamwork that

231
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,760
we had out there but i could not do their job especially towards the end of my career i was

232
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,200
seeing the stuff that they were having to go through i mean we were going through our own but

233
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,920
um man just to think what these guys were dealing with every single day and then we would show up

234
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,880
on scene and our patients would turn around they'd have a completely different attitude towards us

235
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:50,520
and a few more bruises i remember that we were the good guys but we used to be able to get a

236
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,080
lot of information out of them because we were the good guys and of course you know that information

237
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,840
if it was relevant got turned right on over to pd so they can do their jobs what about from the

238
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,520
fitness side what were you playing during school age and then as you said six years of testing

239
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,320
you know that's one of the things that we can own when it comes to improving our chances of getting

240
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,800
hired so so what were you also doing physically after you left school to prepare for the fire

241
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:24,040
service um i played baseball my sport was baseball i did play a little football uh junior and senior

242
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:31,960
year of high school but predominantly my sport was baseball so i played a lot of ball uh once i

243
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:41,320
finished with college um and then went to the military i ended up hurting my arm in college and uh

244
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:47,160
redshirted and instead of coming back and playing again i decided to go to germany

245
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:55,240
in the military and start having some fun but then when i got out and i just started playing

246
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:01,720
softball after that so i was very competitive in men's softball leagues in effect that was one of

247
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:07,000
my interview questions when i got hired with anaheim was they asked me if i played any sports and i

248
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:14,840
said yeah i played baseball and the chief at the time was a was a guy that played a lot of baseball

249
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:24,520
and i remember him asking me are you any good his name was jeff bowman and i said yeah i'm pretty

250
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,840
good and he said all right we'll have to see about that and they ended up hiring me and i was i was

251
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:37,640
a rookie playing on their softball team so i guess i was able to prove myself enough to get on the

252
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,840
team as a rookie so that was a lot of fun a lot of fun so i just carried on with that throughout

253
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:49,400
my career as long as i could played softball and outside of that there was not a lot of sports

254
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:57,720
activity motorcycle riding maybe i did a lot of motorcycle riding we did water sports sea do's

255
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:05,400
boating that kind of thing took a lot of trips with the the fire fire family river trips and whatnot

256
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:12,840
yeah now chief bowman i think he was the chief just before chief smith wouldn't because smith was my

257
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:19,240
chief so he must have been chief for quite a while then uh yeah jeff was a chief for many years many

258
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,840
years i think he was one of the youngest chiefs in southern california if i'm not mistaken i don't

259
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,480
know this for sure but i think he was around 32 or something like that when he became the chief

260
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:38,520
and uh he was there for quite a while yeah when you look back at your childhood now through these

261
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:46,520
mature eyes that you have were there any elements that you identify as as challenging traumatic

262
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,160
however you want to label them and the reason i ask is i was blown away i mean i've done over

263
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:58,520
900 interviews now how many of us in uniform had elements of that when we were younger and a lot

264
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,880
of those are the reasons why you know it drove a lot of us to serve for for a multitude of reasons

265
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,840
but they can also then manifest later in our career in a negative way if left unaddressed so

266
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,920
when you look back now were there any any elements that you reflect upon

267
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,120
uh

268
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:23,320
i don't know if this is where you're going with this question i know that very early in my life

269
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:31,160
i had a dream that i wanted to be a fireman at the age of seven i ended up burning down my next door

270
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:40,200
neighbor's garage and la county responded and it was quite a show i mean the whole mushroom cloud

271
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:48,520
blew the top of that doggone roof right off that garage and i remember being so scared thinking to

272
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,040
myself i'm you know something's major gonna happen to me and i remember this captain came up to me

273
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:59,720
and got down on his knee and licked me in the eye and was just thankful that i wasn't hurt and then

274
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:09,960
very uh i don't know very fatherly just gave me some advice and uh talked to me about the dangers

275
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:19,000
of what i had done and uh by the time i don't know four or five years past that rolled around

276
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:27,480
uh i think it was early 70s that uh emergency came out and that's what hooked me that's what

277
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,640
hooked me squad 51 did it to me man and that's where i thought that man i gotta do this but

278
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,040
at the time

279
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,200
i was still too young to figure out what exactly or how exactly i would do it i was still too young

280
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:50,360
to figure out what exactly or how exactly i would do it i didn't have anybody in my in my circle of

281
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,920
influence at the time that had ever been a firefighter so i didn't know much about it

282
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:01,720
so i just went about doing my own thing came back from the military and got into construction

283
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:12,040
and at about 1987 or eight i started seeing the writing on the wall that

284
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:18,840
now that i'm married i probably ought to look at a more stable career than swinging a hammer for a living

285
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:29,800
and by 1989 i was heavy into it so i had started really pursuing that dream if you will and uh

286
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:37,320
i think a lot of it just had to do with you know the upbringing i had uh my dad was always

287
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,440
a person that was serving people as a as a preacher my mom as well as the preacher's wife

288
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,720
so they were always helping people overcome whatever they were trying to overcome so it

289
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,920
kind of just inherently was in me to want to do something where i could help people

290
00:32:52,920 --> 00:33:00,440
and do something that was respectable um and that's probably what caused me to go in that direction

291
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:08,680
what were the fitness standards or expectations when you entered anaheim and what has been your

292
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:15,240
observation of the evolution or devolution of fitness in the fire service well i'm probably

293
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,640
the wrong guy to ask about that there's a running joke in anaheim i didn't do a lot of

294
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,920
physical fitness i didn't do a lot of working out at the stations i did a little bit here and there

295
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:33,320
but most of my activity is what kept me sane kept me healthy and fit but there was a running joke

296
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:39,560
at our firehouse where i would go and hit the gym every day and it was literally me going into the

297
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,720
weight room and hitting the gym just hitting the weights and knocking on them and letting everybody

298
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,480
go okay i hit the weights i'm done i'm out of here and go do my thing but i was just a little bit

299
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:55,800
and feed back on, but when i first came on, I was the way i knew i had to do it.

300
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:03,720
so when i first came on, i worked construction all my days off even as a rookie

301
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:13,080
so my activity level was always super high so for me to go and and do all the

302
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,880
the weights and the things like that,

303
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,760
I was more focused on maybe doing more cardio

304
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:19,800
than I was muscle building,

305
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,200
because I felt like construction was giving me

306
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,760
the workout I needed.

307
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,760
And once I got in, I could start to see the evolution

308
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,800
where it was becoming much more

309
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:40,100
of a requirement to stay physically fit

310
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,800
just to keep your mind healthy.

311
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,720
And I did that.

312
00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:47,640
I tried to stay as fit as I possibly could

313
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,880
throughout my entire career,

314
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,560
but didn't ever get into the day-to-day grind

315
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,640
of just making sure I was hitting the gym every day,

316
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:57,480
doing whatever I did.

317
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,060
I just kind of just went along with my own program

318
00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:06,060
of working, enjoying my time off

319
00:35:06,940 --> 00:35:08,120
to the best of my ability

320
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,240
and let the chips fall where they may.

321
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,400
Seemed like I always stayed pretty healthy.

322
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,120
What about the attrition rate for your probationary class?

323
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,280
By the time I got there in, when did I get hired?

324
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:21,960
Oh, five.

325
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,960
There was basically a history of about 25% attrition rate

326
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,760
where by the time you got to the end of the probation,

327
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,360
and that's the thing about Anaheim's probation

328
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,200
is it was a solid probation.

329
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,920
One of my classmates got let go

330
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,160
literally the day before we hit a year.

331
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,640
So, you held that bar high

332
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,200
and that was it.

333
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,000
We were either gonna make it or we weren't.

334
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,340
And it was gracious.

335
00:35:45,340 --> 00:35:46,840
It was like, look, there's other departments around.

336
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:47,680
You'd be a great fit.

337
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,160
You're just not the right fit for us.

338
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,460
So, I was terrified for 365 days

339
00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:52,960
and then just slightly less terrified

340
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,040
for the next several years.

341
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,880
But what was that like when you got hired

342
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,660
and then through your eyes,

343
00:35:59,660 --> 00:36:01,240
how were they able to maintain

344
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,180
or create that very high standard

345
00:36:03,180 --> 00:36:05,740
when maybe some of the departments around them

346
00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:07,780
weren't holding it quite as high?

347
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:12,780
Well, our training cadre held a very high standard.

348
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:17,100
And it's like you said,

349
00:36:19,580 --> 00:36:23,060
through the tower itself, that was stressful enough.

350
00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:25,420
I mean, that was just every single day.

351
00:36:25,420 --> 00:36:27,580
It was intense.

352
00:36:27,580 --> 00:36:29,220
But once we got on the floor

353
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:32,260
and got into our probationary rhythms,

354
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:36,100
I think a lot of guys would have had

355
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,140
that's where they have most of their issues

356
00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:41,820
because there's such a fear when you're in that environment

357
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:45,180
and everybody's just looking at you

358
00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:47,580
and examining you and evaluating you.

359
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:52,580
And it can be daunting.

360
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:55,420
For me, I don't know that

361
00:36:56,820 --> 00:36:59,580
what the attrition rate was per se.

362
00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:02,500
I do know that we ended up losing one guy

363
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:03,340
out of our academy.

364
00:37:03,340 --> 00:37:05,300
And our academy only had one guy

365
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:09,220
and our academy only had six people, I think,

366
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:10,380
something like six or seven.

367
00:37:10,380 --> 00:37:13,140
So we were very small groups back then.

368
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:15,580
And then by the time you guys came around,

369
00:37:15,580 --> 00:37:18,620
I mean, we were having classes that were 20 plus,

370
00:37:18,620 --> 00:37:20,540
15, 20, easy.

371
00:37:20,540 --> 00:37:22,140
But my class was very small.

372
00:37:22,140 --> 00:37:23,140
We lost one man.

373
00:37:23,140 --> 00:37:23,980
That was it.

374
00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:27,200
Class before that lost a few.

375
00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:31,900
But we didn't start losing people

376
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:35,740
on a higher level from what I could recall

377
00:37:35,740 --> 00:37:40,620
until we started having these big classes come through.

378
00:37:40,620 --> 00:37:44,460
And we were trying to catch up on the hiring.

379
00:37:46,180 --> 00:37:51,180
We had such a rate of people retiring

380
00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:55,460
and leaving a lot of those positions void

381
00:37:55,460 --> 00:37:58,740
that we had to start hiring a much,

382
00:37:58,740 --> 00:38:01,620
a greater amount of individuals

383
00:38:01,620 --> 00:38:02,860
to be able to keep up with it.

384
00:38:02,860 --> 00:38:04,400
And even then we couldn't keep up with it.

385
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,100
So I don't know exactly what that rate was,

386
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:10,500
but I know that it was,

387
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,020
or at least Anaheim was known

388
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:18,020
for having a very tough tower and probationary period.

389
00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:21,780
And there were a couple of guys,

390
00:38:21,780 --> 00:38:23,080
one in particular I know of,

391
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,060
that he was very well known for being the Axeman.

392
00:38:29,260 --> 00:38:31,440
If he felt like you couldn't make it

393
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,540
and the thing they always said was that

394
00:38:35,060 --> 00:38:37,440
you're gonna be put in the back seat

395
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,020
and you gotta make sure that that person in the back seat

396
00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:42,300
knows what they're doing enough

397
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:46,580
because your whole crew could rely on them one day.

398
00:38:46,580 --> 00:38:48,580
So it was taken very seriously.

399
00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:52,120
I think it's a really important perspective

400
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,580
because you mentioned about trying to hire.

401
00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:57,660
And I remember, I think there was two groups.

402
00:38:57,660 --> 00:38:58,900
I think there was 15 in each.

403
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:00,600
So it was my group and then Jimmy Timbos

404
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,540
was the one, Portillo, all those guys,

405
00:39:02,540 --> 00:39:04,420
was the one, I think they were six months

406
00:39:04,420 --> 00:39:05,520
or a year behind us.

407
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:10,460
But despite needing to fill those vacancies,

408
00:39:10,460 --> 00:39:14,220
you still got rid of 25%.

409
00:39:14,220 --> 00:39:17,140
And what I've told a lot of people recently,

410
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:19,020
what I observed with Anaheim

411
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:21,120
is the bar was set high and kept high.

412
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,020
So people would line,

413
00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:26,740
I tested against a thousand plus people for 30 positions.

414
00:39:26,740 --> 00:39:30,060
So fast forward to today where people are struggling,

415
00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:31,860
there's this, in my opinion,

416
00:39:31,860 --> 00:39:33,500
I'd love to get your take on it,

417
00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:36,100
completely backwards thinking that,

418
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,060
oh, if we just lower standards, we can get more people.

419
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:41,100
I disagree because I feel like

420
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,820
when you have departments that hold that bar up

421
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:47,220
and are known for good training and aggressive firefighting

422
00:39:47,220 --> 00:39:48,980
and taking care of their people,

423
00:39:48,980 --> 00:39:51,620
that is how you have people lining up out the front door,

424
00:39:51,620 --> 00:39:53,780
not lowering the standards.

425
00:39:53,780 --> 00:39:54,620
I agree.

426
00:39:57,140 --> 00:39:59,860
One of the things that we were always challenged with

427
00:39:59,860 --> 00:40:02,980
is there was a pervasive thought

428
00:40:05,940 --> 00:40:09,060
once people got in some leadership positions

429
00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:11,540
where they felt that

430
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,120
you had a 30 year career to learn this stuff.

431
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,860
So maybe you can go a little bit easier on folks

432
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:23,940
because they had such a,

433
00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:26,660
they had a 30 year career to learn it.

434
00:40:26,660 --> 00:40:30,040
And I could understand the reasoning behind that.

435
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Without a doubt, I learned way more about fire service

436
00:40:36,580 --> 00:40:39,380
and the firefighting industry, if you will,

437
00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:42,980
after getting into the department.

438
00:40:42,980 --> 00:40:47,780
And so you do learn a substantial amount of information

439
00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:51,040
over the course of your year or the course of your career.

440
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,060
However, there's gotta be a standard

441
00:40:56,060 --> 00:41:00,460
that you gotta meet before getting on the floor.

442
00:41:01,380 --> 00:41:06,380
And that standard is there to develop trust.

443
00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:11,440
The trust in our department to train,

444
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:17,340
the trust in the individual crew on whatever rig you're on.

445
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:22,480
And when you lower the standards,

446
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,480
then you give trust a fisher in the foundation.

447
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:34,820
And now you're wondering, okay, how did they get here?

448
00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:39,820
Was this a quota or was this the cream of the crop?

449
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:48,880
And when you have a department like we came from in Anaheim,

450
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,360
we were always hiring the best of the best,

451
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,160
the cream of the crop.

452
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,940
And that was the way it was, at least for my career.

453
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,940
But I did start to see some of those standards get lowered.

454
00:42:00,940 --> 00:42:03,740
And a lot of those folks that ended up

455
00:42:03,740 --> 00:42:06,340
not making it through our process,

456
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:08,580
you could see turn around and sue the city

457
00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:12,500
or go after individuals on the training cadre

458
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:15,640
or whatever that may be, which was sad for me

459
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:20,640
because without the trust of those individuals coming on to

460
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:31,900
our crew and knowing that they knew what was going on,

461
00:42:31,980 --> 00:42:36,340
they had an understanding of the seriousness

462
00:42:36,340 --> 00:42:38,200
of what we were entering into.

463
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:43,200
It's very difficult for me to look back and go,

464
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,800
yeah, I wish we would have kept that person around

465
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,800
because they could not keep up or do what was necessary

466
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,960
to maintain that factor of trust within our department.

467
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,860
So I know that on an individual level down

468
00:43:00,860 --> 00:43:03,300
at maybe a crew level, perhaps,

469
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:05,400
it was gonna even be more difficult.

470
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,080
And so you had people come through

471
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,120
that you would see people looking at like,

472
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,240
okay, we gotta keep an eye on this one.

473
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:16,000
So let's do everything we can to bring them up

474
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,720
to the standard we need them.

475
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,960
And we'll use their entire probationary period

476
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,160
to get them there.

477
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,160
But at the end of that probationary period,

478
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,320
if they're not there, we're gonna have to let them go.

479
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,220
And I got very comfortable with that mentality.

480
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,400
I shit myself when I first got there.

481
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,520
Reason being, the way we were shown how to throw ladders

482
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,520
in the Florida Academy was you suitcase carry the ladder

483
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,080
to the wall of a completely open drill tower apron,

484
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,600
lay it flat, walk up the rungs,

485
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,560
then you had to do, pull it away

486
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,360
and you would actually foot it from the side,

487
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,980
which once I learned the other way, made no sense to me.

488
00:43:54,980 --> 00:43:56,560
Then you'd have to flip it.

489
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,960
And it was just, that's all we knew at the time.

490
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,120
Then I come to Anaheim and guys are high shouldering it

491
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,440
and sticking ladders and I'm like, oh shit,

492
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,880
I have got a steep learning curve.

493
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,680
And I know, I'm sure some of the cadre in the Academy

494
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,480
were like, I'm not so sure about this English guy.

495
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:13,720
But it was just that.

496
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,000
At the same time, it wasn't like I was ridiculed.

497
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,920
With my classmates and then the cadre,

498
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,160
I was shown the right way.

499
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,280
It took some time and I got it and ended up, as you said,

500
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,360
meeting expectations at the end.

501
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,840
So it wasn't like it was unfair,

502
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,440
but each one of us had the opportunity to own our skills

503
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,600
and our fitness and our book smarts.

504
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,000
And so it's ultimately up to the individual

505
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,520
to be either be prepared or not be prepared.

506
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,640
And I think the way that I've always looked at it is,

507
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,840
an Academy and orientation should prepare you.

508
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,320
So if you get a fire on your very first call

509
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,080
on your very first day, you're prepared.

510
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,560
Doesn't mean your experience doesn't mean

511
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,200
that you're gonna run the call,

512
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,120
but you can at least do what you're asked of you.

513
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,920
So this kind of softly, gently, what if you get,

514
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,800
a Grenfell fire situation or the Vegas shooting

515
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,320
on your first day, are you ready?

516
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,160
Yes or no?

517
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:06,800
Right, that's exactly right.

518
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,800
And looking in that backseat, as a captain,

519
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,680
I was very fortunate that I spent most of my career

520
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,120
in a specialty assignment on the USAR team.

521
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,820
And so the people I always had there were assigned to me.

522
00:45:27,820 --> 00:45:30,740
So we always had people that were at a level

523
00:45:30,740 --> 00:45:35,740
of proficiency and skillset that I never had to worry.

524
00:45:36,860 --> 00:45:37,700
I really didn't.

525
00:45:39,020 --> 00:45:41,460
The only time I had to worry is if I had an overtime

526
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:44,140
or coming in and I didn't know them that well,

527
00:45:44,140 --> 00:45:46,620
or I didn't know what they could or couldn't do.

528
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:49,180
So in those cases, you just keep an eye on them

529
00:45:49,180 --> 00:45:50,180
until they earn your trust.

530
00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:53,300
And then once they have your trust, it's a no brainer.

531
00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:55,860
Absolutely.

532
00:45:55,860 --> 00:45:59,020
When I first came on Anaheim, I remember we just missed,

533
00:45:59,020 --> 00:46:00,060
I can't remember if it was in the Academy

534
00:46:00,060 --> 00:46:01,380
or if it was right before we got there,

535
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:03,700
but it was the Stadium Lofts fire,

536
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,140
which once they rebuilt, Mikey ended up buying a place

537
00:46:06,140 --> 00:46:07,460
in there for a crazy amount of money.

538
00:46:07,460 --> 00:46:08,300
I was on that fire.

539
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:10,060
Oh yeah, so that's what I was gonna ask you.

540
00:46:10,060 --> 00:46:13,100
So in your career, what was some of the,

541
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:15,180
the quote unquote career calls,

542
00:46:15,180 --> 00:46:16,780
whether they're fires or anything else?

543
00:46:18,540 --> 00:46:23,540
Well, I don't look at, I can remember the stadium calls

544
00:46:23,540 --> 00:46:27,780
and I can remember the Stadium Lofts fire

545
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:28,900
because I was on that.

546
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:34,620
Shoot, the fires, they've all run together.

547
00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:36,940
I'm not even sure what the big ones were anymore.

548
00:46:36,940 --> 00:46:39,380
I mean, I know we had one over off of Rob Way,

549
00:46:41,180 --> 00:46:43,580
which is in two's first in,

550
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:47,540
that I was actually on the roof, me and Dave Baker

551
00:46:47,540 --> 00:46:50,100
were on the roof cutting a trench.

552
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:54,260
And man, the thing was blowing up on us.

553
00:46:54,260 --> 00:46:59,260
And I walked away with my face mask melted,

554
00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:05,860
burn marks on my turnout coat,

555
00:47:07,580 --> 00:47:10,980
had some singe marks around my hood.

556
00:47:10,980 --> 00:47:14,220
So it was getting hot pretty quick and we finished up.

557
00:47:14,220 --> 00:47:16,740
And I remember getting down on the ground

558
00:47:16,740 --> 00:47:21,260
and doing a little rehab and Chief Smith came up to me

559
00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:23,860
and was telling us, man, we saw you guys up there.

560
00:47:25,020 --> 00:47:26,300
That fire was on you guys.

561
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:28,340
I'm surprised you guys stayed up that long world.

562
00:47:28,340 --> 00:47:30,460
We had a job to do and we felt safe.

563
00:47:30,460 --> 00:47:31,820
So we were getting it done.

564
00:47:33,220 --> 00:47:34,820
But I never looked at the fires like,

565
00:47:34,820 --> 00:47:37,180
okay, that fire was named this, that's what it was.

566
00:47:37,180 --> 00:47:39,420
This fire was named that, that's what it was.

567
00:47:41,180 --> 00:47:44,380
But the big fires that we ended up going on

568
00:47:44,380 --> 00:47:47,020
were pretty good size.

569
00:47:47,020 --> 00:47:50,140
Three heads, that stadium loss fire,

570
00:47:50,140 --> 00:47:54,820
we could see the header from the station.

571
00:47:54,820 --> 00:47:59,820
We pulled out on to Cotella there and boy,

572
00:48:00,220 --> 00:48:03,420
you could see the thing from all the way down

573
00:48:03,420 --> 00:48:05,140
from where we were close to Disneyland.

574
00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:07,780
That thing was almost to the 57 freeway.

575
00:48:07,780 --> 00:48:11,900
And by the time we got there, that building had already,

576
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:13,620
that was in framing stages.

577
00:48:13,620 --> 00:48:16,820
So that's the first time I've ever been on a fire

578
00:48:16,820 --> 00:48:19,140
where we actually lost the foundation.

579
00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:20,980
They had to rip the foundation out of that thing

580
00:48:20,980 --> 00:48:21,880
and start over.

581
00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:26,100
But the heat, the BTUs coming off that thing

582
00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:27,940
were melting signs across the street.

583
00:48:27,940 --> 00:48:29,700
That was a big fire.

584
00:48:31,740 --> 00:48:35,220
I remember the Pallette Farm fire that we had.

585
00:48:35,220 --> 00:48:36,540
I think it was on our shift

586
00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:40,340
because I think it was me and Jimmy on that one and Terry.

587
00:48:40,340 --> 00:48:43,180
But again, same thing, we were coming out one

588
00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:44,780
and you could see the glow.

589
00:48:44,780 --> 00:48:47,220
And that was in five's first year, I think.

590
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:48,960
I mean, crazy fire.

591
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,180
And that was the one where engine eight, I think,

592
00:48:53,180 --> 00:48:55,460
was kind of trapped behind the fence

593
00:48:55,460 --> 00:48:56,800
and we ended up cutting the fence

594
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,980
and the gauges had melted like a Picasso painting.

595
00:48:59,980 --> 00:49:01,660
I do, yeah, I do remember that.

596
00:49:01,660 --> 00:49:04,740
I remember, yeah, I remember burning up some gauges

597
00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:06,020
on a fire.

598
00:49:06,020 --> 00:49:08,700
Yeah, that was crazy fire too.

599
00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:10,700
Well, I know that we talked about this

600
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:12,220
when we spoke not too long ago,

601
00:49:12,220 --> 00:49:17,220
but the mental health journey of a lot of us in uniform

602
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:18,940
as you progress through,

603
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:21,960
and again, I talk about this all the time,

604
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,740
you added in the work week and Anaheim was 56 hours,

605
00:49:24,740 --> 00:49:28,460
no Kelly Day, so a brutal work schedule

606
00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:31,820
before you even mentioned things like mandatory overtime.

607
00:49:31,820 --> 00:49:36,820
When you look back, when did you start to experience

608
00:49:37,140 --> 00:49:39,740
challenges when it came to the mental health side?

609
00:49:39,740 --> 00:49:41,340
I think it was pretty early actually,

610
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:46,340
because my wife would tell you that I would come home cranky

611
00:49:47,220 --> 00:49:52,220
or I'd come home short tempered or kind of the typical

612
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:59,220
sleep deprivation kind of issues that you would have.

613
00:50:01,940 --> 00:50:06,940
But I think when it really started to take off for me,

614
00:50:06,940 --> 00:50:09,860
I can't say that I ever experienced

615
00:50:09,860 --> 00:50:11,780
the mental health side of things

616
00:50:11,780 --> 00:50:14,060
because of the fire service.

617
00:50:14,060 --> 00:50:16,980
I was experiencing mental health stuff

618
00:50:16,980 --> 00:50:20,260
before I even went in to the fire service.

619
00:50:20,260 --> 00:50:22,860
And I'll explain how that works is that

620
00:50:27,260 --> 00:50:30,620
I spent the first 10 years of my marriage

621
00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:33,660
not in the fire service, I was a contractor.

622
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:38,660
And unfortunately, I had developed a wayward eye,

623
00:50:42,140 --> 00:50:47,140
if you will, and I got caught up into an addiction.

624
00:50:47,860 --> 00:50:52,860
And that addiction was sexual addiction, pornography,

625
00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:56,860
and unfortunately for me,

626
00:50:56,860 --> 00:50:59,380
it led way beyond just pornography.

627
00:50:59,380 --> 00:51:04,380
And just before getting hired on into the fire service,

628
00:51:06,380 --> 00:51:10,060
I had already been working for three solid years

629
00:51:10,060 --> 00:51:11,980
on my sobriety, had a mentor,

630
00:51:11,980 --> 00:51:14,580
had a guy walking me through it, helping me.

631
00:51:14,580 --> 00:51:19,580
And he ended up teaching me how to look past my addiction

632
00:51:22,860 --> 00:51:25,140
and see it for what it really was.

633
00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:26,940
He says, that addiction,

634
00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:29,860
is how you anesthetize your trauma.

635
00:51:29,860 --> 00:51:33,060
So then I started realizing at that point,

636
00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:34,340
okay, well, what's the trauma?

637
00:51:34,340 --> 00:51:36,220
I thought I had a great childhood, man.

638
00:51:36,220 --> 00:51:38,420
I mean, I love my childhood,

639
00:51:38,420 --> 00:51:42,580
but there were some traumas that happened in my life

640
00:51:42,580 --> 00:51:45,580
at a very young age that caused me

641
00:51:45,580 --> 00:51:48,180
to feel certain ways about myself.

642
00:51:48,180 --> 00:51:53,180
And those feelings over a course of time,

643
00:51:53,180 --> 00:51:58,180
start creating a desire to anesthetize the hurt,

644
00:51:59,220 --> 00:52:02,500
the shame, the fear, the guilt.

645
00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:06,020
And so when I ended up leaving for the military

646
00:52:06,020 --> 00:52:11,020
and going overseas, I completely went off the deep end

647
00:52:11,860 --> 00:52:15,860
sexually with, you know, I just, you know,

648
00:52:17,380 --> 00:52:19,140
it's not something I'm trying to do.

649
00:52:19,140 --> 00:52:20,740
I'm trying to do it for myself.

650
00:52:20,740 --> 00:52:23,780
You know, it's not something I'm proud of,

651
00:52:23,780 --> 00:52:28,780
but I had my eyes opened up when you go to Europe,

652
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:34,180
their sexual tendencies or their appetites

653
00:52:34,180 --> 00:52:35,860
are a little different than ours.

654
00:52:35,860 --> 00:52:40,580
There was much more available in the 80s,

655
00:52:40,580 --> 00:52:45,580
in the early 80s out there than there were here.

656
00:52:45,580 --> 00:52:49,940
And so I got my appetite wet a little bit, if you will,

657
00:52:49,940 --> 00:52:54,940
on the variety of women and all of the ability

658
00:52:55,980 --> 00:53:00,980
that was out there to have these little rendezvous.

659
00:53:03,140 --> 00:53:05,340
And so by the time I got stateside,

660
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:10,460
I was kind of well versed in my addiction,

661
00:53:10,460 --> 00:53:15,460
but kind of devaluing it, if you will, by just saying,

662
00:53:15,460 --> 00:53:16,300
well, that's just normal.

663
00:53:16,300 --> 00:53:17,540
I mean, all guys are like this.

664
00:53:17,540 --> 00:53:19,260
I mean, that's just what guys do.

665
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:25,300
And then I got married and I thought getting married

666
00:53:25,420 --> 00:53:28,340
would end that and it didn't.

667
00:53:28,340 --> 00:53:31,380
And in fact, getting married, it just intensified it

668
00:53:31,380 --> 00:53:35,300
because now I'm looking at being married

669
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:38,900
and only having, you know, my wife and making sure

670
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:42,340
that she was the only one, but all of this success

671
00:53:42,340 --> 00:53:47,340
that I'd had made it very difficult for me to be monogamous.

672
00:53:50,540 --> 00:53:55,540
And after my two boys were born, I knew I was in trouble

673
00:53:57,780 --> 00:54:00,260
and I knew I needed to get help.

674
00:54:00,260 --> 00:54:05,260
And I just remember crying out for help.

675
00:54:05,580 --> 00:54:08,500
Actually, as I was, you know, I'm gonna say this,

676
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:10,740
probably the most difficult thing I've ever done

677
00:54:10,740 --> 00:54:15,740
is I've been very frank and open and honest with them,

678
00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:20,060
with my background in sexual addiction.

679
00:54:20,060 --> 00:54:25,060
So, you know, I was out cruising for prostitutes

680
00:54:25,180 --> 00:54:30,180
and just crying tears down my face.

681
00:54:30,180 --> 00:54:31,420
Why?

682
00:54:31,420 --> 00:54:32,260
I gotta stop this.

683
00:54:32,260 --> 00:54:33,700
I can't do this.

684
00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:35,020
I'm destroying my life.

685
00:54:35,020 --> 00:54:39,020
I'm destroying my wife, my family, my family.

686
00:54:39,020 --> 00:54:42,300
My wife, my family, myself.

687
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:44,620
If I was to get caught, there's no way I'd ever get

688
00:54:44,620 --> 00:54:46,500
on the fire department.

689
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:51,500
But yet the risk was not outweighing that benefit

690
00:54:52,420 --> 00:54:55,580
that I had, that short term fix of,

691
00:54:55,580 --> 00:54:59,500
man, I can just get over this by just a real quick hit

692
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:03,900
of the drug of my choice and I'll feel fine again.

693
00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:08,900
Well, that didn't go over well with my wife, of course.

694
00:55:10,460 --> 00:55:14,140
So we struggled for so many years back and forth

695
00:55:14,140 --> 00:55:16,060
and trying to get through it.

696
00:55:16,060 --> 00:55:20,900
And about 10 years in, two small boys,

697
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:25,900
she grabs me by the arms and she's kind of like shaking me.

698
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:28,500
And she just, these were the words she said to me

699
00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:29,340
that woke me up.

700
00:55:29,340 --> 00:55:34,340
She says, she says, I hate you, I hate God,

701
00:55:34,340 --> 00:55:36,500
I hate the church, I quit.

702
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:42,060
And that rocked me to my core.

703
00:55:42,060 --> 00:55:46,060
And that gave me the drive to figure out

704
00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:49,940
how am I gonna get past this?

705
00:55:49,940 --> 00:55:52,140
I gotta do whatever I gotta do

706
00:55:52,140 --> 00:55:55,820
because I cannot imagine living the rest of my life

707
00:55:55,820 --> 00:56:00,300
in bondage to this addiction.

708
00:56:00,300 --> 00:56:05,300
And as things would have it, my mom had a book

709
00:56:06,860 --> 00:56:10,060
that she had, I'm not even sure where she got the book,

710
00:56:10,060 --> 00:56:12,140
but she gave me this book.

711
00:56:12,140 --> 00:56:15,500
It's called, Discover the Mind of a Woman.

712
00:56:16,540 --> 00:56:19,620
And I read that book for the first time

713
00:56:19,620 --> 00:56:22,700
and my light bulb was just going off in my head.

714
00:56:22,700 --> 00:56:25,060
Well, no wonder I'm the way I am, no wonder I do this,

715
00:56:25,060 --> 00:56:27,700
no wonder, and it was all starting to make sense.

716
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:29,340
So I read that thing from cover to cover

717
00:56:29,340 --> 00:56:32,900
and then eventually I decided, you know what,

718
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:34,380
I'm gonna give this author a call.

719
00:56:34,380 --> 00:56:36,580
I'm gonna call the guy that wrote this book

720
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:38,900
and have a talk with him and see if there's any way

721
00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:42,220
that I could be mentored by him or something, man,

722
00:56:42,220 --> 00:56:43,700
because I need this guy's help.

723
00:56:43,700 --> 00:56:46,580
So I gave him a call and as luck would have it,

724
00:56:46,580 --> 00:56:49,180
he was gonna be in Southern California,

725
00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:50,740
he was out of Arizona.

726
00:56:50,740 --> 00:56:52,420
He was gonna be in Southern California

727
00:56:52,420 --> 00:56:56,380
and he invited us to a seminar where he was gonna be speaking

728
00:56:56,380 --> 00:56:59,420
on that very book and that topic.

729
00:56:59,420 --> 00:57:02,900
So my wife and I went and I approached him afterwards

730
00:57:02,900 --> 00:57:06,380
and I asked him if he would be interested in mentoring me.

731
00:57:06,380 --> 00:57:11,380
And he said, well, I can, but you're gonna have to come

732
00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:16,580
to Phoenix, Arizona on every Wednesday

733
00:57:16,820 --> 00:57:18,660
for the next three years.

734
00:57:18,660 --> 00:57:21,660
And I thought to myself, well, that's not gonna be possible

735
00:57:21,660 --> 00:57:26,540
since at that time I had just got hired by Anaheim.

736
00:57:26,540 --> 00:57:29,260
Man, I can't do that.

737
00:57:29,260 --> 00:57:31,220
And so I said, is there anybody out here

738
00:57:31,220 --> 00:57:33,140
that you would recommend?

739
00:57:33,140 --> 00:57:35,580
And he pointed to this guy, standing this big, tall dude,

740
00:57:35,580 --> 00:57:38,740
about six, seven, six, eight, just a big dude.

741
00:57:40,740 --> 00:57:42,620
He said, go talk to Kevin.

742
00:57:42,620 --> 00:57:47,100
He went through my three-year mentorship program

743
00:57:47,100 --> 00:57:49,020
and he'd probably be able to help you out.

744
00:57:49,020 --> 00:57:51,100
So I went to Kevin and I asked him and sure enough,

745
00:57:51,100 --> 00:57:52,620
the guy was able to help me out

746
00:57:52,620 --> 00:57:57,620
and started a three-plus-year mentorship program with him.

747
00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:05,940
And through all of that, was finally able

748
00:58:05,940 --> 00:58:09,980
to get to a place where I could come clean with my wife

749
00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:12,220
as to what had happened and what I'd been doing

750
00:58:12,220 --> 00:58:17,220
and worked through the rebuilding process

751
00:58:17,220 --> 00:58:19,300
of rebuilding that trust.

752
00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:23,660
And once that was completed,

753
00:58:26,420 --> 00:58:28,700
we ended up having a little girl.

754
00:58:28,700 --> 00:58:29,540
We got pregnant.

755
00:58:29,540 --> 00:58:31,460
Actually, I ended up telling my wife everything

756
00:58:31,460 --> 00:58:34,620
that was going on while my wife was pregnant with my daughter.

757
00:58:35,500 --> 00:58:38,300
But when our daughter was,

758
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:40,300
when she was pregnant with our daughter,

759
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:45,500
my mentor told me, he said,

760
00:58:45,500 --> 00:58:47,900
I just want you to do one thing for me.

761
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:50,580
If you ever feel like there's that voice,

762
00:58:50,580 --> 00:58:53,100
and he called that voice the Holy Spirit,

763
00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:55,020
if you ever feel like the Holy Spirit

764
00:58:55,020 --> 00:58:58,340
is putting it on your heart to tell your wife

765
00:58:58,340 --> 00:59:01,100
everything you've done, trust him,

766
00:59:01,100 --> 00:59:06,100
and let your wife know so that you guys can get it all out

767
00:59:06,100 --> 00:59:09,660
and then you could start rebuilding your trust

768
00:59:09,660 --> 00:59:12,660
back on solid foundation.

769
00:59:12,660 --> 00:59:14,940
I thought, okay, I'm gonna do that.

770
00:59:14,940 --> 00:59:17,340
I thought, okay, well, that ain't gonna ever happen.

771
00:59:17,340 --> 00:59:19,380
But yeah, I'll agree to that, sure.

772
00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:21,220
Ain't no way in hell I'm gonna tell my wife

773
00:59:21,220 --> 00:59:22,900
what I've been up to.

774
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:24,660
And I don't know what happened to James,

775
00:59:24,660 --> 00:59:27,780
but whatever happened, if something came over me,

776
00:59:27,780 --> 00:59:29,580
as we're having this conversation,

777
00:59:29,580 --> 00:59:32,100
her and I back and forth, and she was really saying,

778
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:35,500
look, I know that you've got a lot of skeletons

779
00:59:35,500 --> 00:59:39,180
in your closet that are keeping you in the dark,

780
00:59:39,180 --> 00:59:42,860
keeping you in shame, it's keeping you hurting.

781
00:59:42,860 --> 00:59:46,940
And you can trust me to be able to tell you,

782
00:59:46,940 --> 00:59:49,140
or to be able to hear what you've got to say.

783
00:59:50,020 --> 00:59:53,020
And I thought, well, okay, man, if you're,

784
00:59:53,020 --> 00:59:55,260
I would much rather you just realize,

785
00:59:55,260 --> 00:59:57,500
I got some shit in my back, in my closet

786
00:59:57,500 --> 00:59:58,980
that I don't need to be exposed.

787
00:59:58,980 --> 01:00:02,420
Let's just pretend like we both know it's there,

788
01:00:02,420 --> 01:00:04,340
but we don't need to deal with it.

789
01:00:05,180 --> 01:00:06,420
And that wasn't working.

790
01:00:07,380 --> 01:00:09,340
So I finally came clean with her,

791
01:00:09,340 --> 01:00:13,860
and to my surprise, she handled it extremely well.

792
01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:17,380
And then I ended up going to work the next day,

793
01:00:18,220 --> 01:00:21,380
and got a phone, I called her that night,

794
01:00:21,380 --> 01:00:25,180
and started talking to her, and she had had a change of mind,

795
01:00:26,180 --> 01:00:31,180
and told me that, I don't know that I can deal

796
01:00:31,180 --> 01:00:34,060
with what you just explained, what you just expressed to me.

797
01:00:34,060 --> 01:00:35,820
I don't know that I can handle that.

798
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:39,340
I don't know that I even wanna be married to you.

799
01:00:39,340 --> 01:00:43,780
And I don't even know if I wanna carry this child anymore.

800
01:00:45,180 --> 01:00:47,580
And my world just dropped.

801
01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:52,580
I'm living up in the mountains in Crestline,

802
01:00:53,740 --> 01:00:56,340
and I'm all the way downtown Anaheim

803
01:00:56,340 --> 01:00:58,500
at station one headquarters, and I'm hearing this,

804
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:00,300
and I'm freaking out.

805
01:01:00,300 --> 01:01:03,420
And so I called up my mentor,

806
01:01:03,420 --> 01:01:06,740
and proceeded to just cuss him up one side and down the other.

807
01:01:06,740 --> 01:01:10,740
I was so angry that he would even suggest

808
01:01:11,220 --> 01:01:13,820
that I be that honest,

809
01:01:15,020 --> 01:01:18,580
when really I had told him what was going on.

810
01:01:18,580 --> 01:01:20,260
I figured, you know what, you know what's going on,

811
01:01:20,260 --> 01:01:22,500
and why do I gotta bring my wife into this?

812
01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:24,340
Why do I gotta tell her?

813
01:01:24,340 --> 01:01:25,820
Can't we just let it go?

814
01:01:25,820 --> 01:01:29,180
Well, anyway, I ended up calling him up,

815
01:01:29,180 --> 01:01:31,980
and I ended up very upset, very upset,

816
01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:36,980
very angry, and told him, I said,

817
01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:42,860
I don't know how in the world I trusted you

818
01:01:44,380 --> 01:01:45,820
with that advice.

819
01:01:45,820 --> 01:01:48,660
That was the worst advice anybody could give me.

820
01:01:50,180 --> 01:01:52,860
Now, because I listened to you,

821
01:01:52,860 --> 01:01:54,980
my wife doesn't wanna stay married to me,

822
01:01:56,380 --> 01:01:58,580
and she doesn't even wanna carry our baby anymore.

823
01:01:58,580 --> 01:02:01,900
So what am I gonna do?

824
01:02:02,940 --> 01:02:05,700
And these were his words, he said, Rick,

825
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:09,340
if you think God has taken you and your wife

826
01:02:09,340 --> 01:02:14,340
on the journey that he has for this last three plus years,

827
01:02:14,340 --> 01:02:17,580
only to drop you off at the doorstep of an abortion clinic,

828
01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:19,740
you don't know my God.

829
01:02:21,220 --> 01:02:24,580
I said, well, right now, that seems like the only thing

830
01:02:24,580 --> 01:02:26,140
that I've got going for me.

831
01:02:26,140 --> 01:02:29,940
Man, is because I've been honest, I'm done.

832
01:02:29,940 --> 01:02:32,660
My marriage is over, my kids are gonna get raised

833
01:02:32,660 --> 01:02:36,540
by somebody else, and I may not even have this baby

834
01:02:36,540 --> 01:02:40,220
that we've been praying for, for so long to have.

835
01:02:40,220 --> 01:02:43,500
And now finally, as my life starts to clean up,

836
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:46,140
we finally get pregnant, and now here she's telling me,

837
01:02:46,140 --> 01:02:51,140
I don't even know if I could stay pregnant anymore.

838
01:02:51,140 --> 01:02:54,300
So it started a journey with my wife and I,

839
01:02:56,300 --> 01:02:59,540
she started to really work with Kevin's wife,

840
01:02:59,540 --> 01:03:02,660
and I was working heavily with Kevin,

841
01:03:02,660 --> 01:03:07,260
and man, lo and behold, within a year or so,

842
01:03:07,260 --> 01:03:10,380
man, we were rocking and rolling back on track,

843
01:03:10,380 --> 01:03:15,380
everything was going great, and it's because of that experience

844
01:03:16,660 --> 01:03:18,700
that I was able to get pregnant.

845
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:23,300
It's because of that experience that by the time

846
01:03:23,300 --> 01:03:27,020
I was in the fire service and going hard to the hole,

847
01:03:28,540 --> 01:03:31,300
my mind was already in a good spot.

848
01:03:31,300 --> 01:03:36,300
So I wasn't having to go and do all of that rebranding

849
01:03:36,700 --> 01:03:41,220
and that rebuilding of the destructive nature of my past

850
01:03:41,220 --> 01:03:43,540
while I was new in the fire service,

851
01:03:43,540 --> 01:03:45,500
because I'd already done all that work.

852
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:50,500
So I guess in a way, having the tools to walk through it

853
01:03:53,580 --> 01:03:57,780
gave me the ability that when I started to see things

854
01:03:57,780 --> 01:04:01,100
that were affecting me in certain ways,

855
01:04:01,100 --> 01:04:05,300
I was able to pull back, assess, find out what triggered,

856
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:08,140
go deal with that trigger, change the narrative

857
01:04:08,140 --> 01:04:11,620
on that trigger, and change the paradigm

858
01:04:11,620 --> 01:04:16,620
and walk through with a much healthier understanding

859
01:04:16,620 --> 01:04:17,860
of mental health.

860
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:22,140
Well, firstly, thank you for sharing that story.

861
01:04:22,140 --> 01:04:25,660
I think it's a very common story behind closed doors.

862
01:04:25,660 --> 01:04:28,140
I mean, we know from the firehouse, we know the guys,

863
01:04:28,140 --> 01:04:31,180
we're talking, bragging about strange and all that stuff.

864
01:04:31,180 --> 01:04:32,020
Oh yeah.

865
01:04:32,020 --> 01:04:35,460
However, as I alluded to earlier,

866
01:04:35,460 --> 01:04:37,380
one of the least discussed elements

867
01:04:37,380 --> 01:04:40,180
of the first responder mental health conversation

868
01:04:40,180 --> 01:04:42,260
is what happened before you ever put the uniform on.

869
01:04:42,260 --> 01:04:43,100
And this is exactly it.

870
01:04:43,100 --> 01:04:45,660
You'd already not only had traumas,

871
01:04:45,660 --> 01:04:49,180
but created resilience before you really entered

872
01:04:49,180 --> 01:04:51,020
Anaheim Fire Service.

873
01:04:51,020 --> 01:04:54,820
When you look back now, I mean, the sexual side,

874
01:04:54,820 --> 01:04:57,380
it's interesting, I've known many, many people

875
01:04:57,380 --> 01:05:01,060
that there was sexual confusion.

876
01:05:01,060 --> 01:05:03,940
A lot of times that was sexual abuse when they were younger.

877
01:05:03,940 --> 01:05:06,780
There's other times that, again, it just became an addiction,

878
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:09,620
no different than an opioid or alcohol or something else.

879
01:05:09,620 --> 01:05:11,460
It was a way of filling that void.

880
01:05:11,460 --> 01:05:12,900
And the way that you phrased it,

881
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:15,860
that hit was more important than the devastation

882
01:05:15,860 --> 01:05:19,500
that it left behind, that you insert whatever drug,

883
01:05:19,500 --> 01:05:23,140
gambling, sex addiction, it's the same feeling.

884
01:05:23,140 --> 01:05:26,020
So when you look back, what were some of those traumas,

885
01:05:26,020 --> 01:05:27,340
you don't have to be specific, don't want to,

886
01:05:27,340 --> 01:05:29,820
but what were some of the things that you,

887
01:05:29,820 --> 01:05:33,540
as I say, what was the pee under the mattress for you

888
01:05:33,540 --> 01:05:37,540
that allows you to then start unpacking what was going on?

889
01:05:37,540 --> 01:05:42,540
First of all, I didn't realize I had any trauma in my life

890
01:05:42,620 --> 01:05:46,620
until I ended up going to that workshop in Long Beach,

891
01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:48,820
learning through the power of commitment,

892
01:05:50,740 --> 01:05:53,820
that there was trauma in my past.

893
01:05:53,820 --> 01:05:57,820
And at that point, I thought the trauma

894
01:05:57,820 --> 01:06:00,220
was geared at my dad.

895
01:06:00,220 --> 01:06:05,220
And I thought that trauma was geared at my dad.

896
01:06:05,220 --> 01:06:10,220
And I went through an exercise to train

897
01:06:11,540 --> 01:06:16,540
or not train, but to rebrand or tell the story,

898
01:06:17,740 --> 01:06:22,740
tell a different story behind why my childhood

899
01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:26,660
was the way it was at that given time.

900
01:06:26,660 --> 01:06:31,660
And my dad was a, he was a preacher, very approachable,

901
01:06:31,660 --> 01:06:36,660
very likable, to me, he was always loving.

902
01:06:38,940 --> 01:06:41,020
I know that I would do things as a kid

903
01:06:41,020 --> 01:06:43,300
and my mom would end up telling me,

904
01:06:43,300 --> 01:06:44,540
well, wait till your dad gets home.

905
01:06:44,540 --> 01:06:47,700
My dad would come back from the office and my mom would say,

906
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:49,180
well, this is what Rick and Jim have been doing.

907
01:06:49,180 --> 01:06:51,220
This is what Rick did, or this is what he did.

908
01:06:51,220 --> 01:06:55,380
And next thing I know, it was requiring a belt.

909
01:06:55,380 --> 01:06:57,620
So I got a lot of belts growing up.

910
01:06:57,620 --> 01:07:00,220
And I was like, well, I'm gonna go to the gym.

911
01:07:00,220 --> 01:07:01,820
That's growing up.

912
01:07:01,820 --> 01:07:03,940
But I think the real trauma had nothing

913
01:07:03,940 --> 01:07:05,980
to do with my dad, per se.

914
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:10,680
It had to do with how young my mom

915
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,020
and dad were when they got married.

916
01:07:13,020 --> 01:07:17,620
I mean, can you imagine at 16 and 17 being married?

917
01:07:17,620 --> 01:07:20,220
And then by the time you're 17 and 18,

918
01:07:20,220 --> 01:07:21,940
you've got your first kid.

919
01:07:21,940 --> 01:07:23,560
Well, and my dad didn't even know this,

920
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:25,700
but he had a kid before I was even born.

921
01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:28,820
So when you look back at that,

922
01:07:28,820 --> 01:07:34,900
And then my brother's being born just nine and a half months later than I am.

923
01:07:34,900 --> 01:07:41,720
You got a lot of things going on in two very young people's lives.

924
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:47,620
My mom was the oldest of I think seven kids.

925
01:07:47,620 --> 01:07:50,760
I think it was seven.

926
01:07:50,760 --> 01:08:02,860
She was the oldest and her father was an alcoholic and had a very difficult time keeping a job.

927
01:08:02,860 --> 01:08:08,760
By all intents and purposes, my grandmother went out, she worked to kind of make sure

928
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:14,780
that they were guaranteed the money because grandpa might have, you know, drank it away

929
01:08:14,780 --> 01:08:16,900
on payday.

930
01:08:16,900 --> 01:08:25,020
So my mom was thrashed at a very young age into watching her kids, her siblings, as though

931
01:08:25,020 --> 01:08:26,100
they were her kids.

932
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:34,600
So she was not only the oldest sibling, but she was also the disciplinarian.

933
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,980
She was also the one that had to control all those brothers and sisters.

934
01:08:37,980 --> 01:08:45,380
Well, what girl at 14, 15, and even 16, when you've got that many kids that you're responsible

935
01:08:45,380 --> 01:08:48,460
for, when they don't listen to you, what's the natural response?

936
01:08:48,460 --> 01:08:52,020
Well, back then it was like she would smack them around.

937
01:08:52,020 --> 01:08:54,020
She would scream and yell.

938
01:08:54,020 --> 01:08:56,980
And that was her parenting style.

939
01:08:56,980 --> 01:09:01,180
So when I came along, I was just another one of her brothers and sisters.

940
01:09:01,180 --> 01:09:02,340
I just happened to be a lot younger.

941
01:09:02,340 --> 01:09:05,260
Well, she was only 17 years older than I am.

942
01:09:05,260 --> 01:09:14,740
So the way that she responded to me when I was not doing the things I should have been

943
01:09:14,740 --> 01:09:22,260
doing was with screaming, yelling, slapping, hitting, all those kinds of things.

944
01:09:22,260 --> 01:09:25,620
And I grew up resenting her for it.

945
01:09:25,620 --> 01:09:34,220
And that kind of brought me up not understanding from my mom's perspective.

946
01:09:34,220 --> 01:09:35,340
I mean, how can I?

947
01:09:35,340 --> 01:09:37,380
I'm a little kid.

948
01:09:37,380 --> 01:09:43,100
And the struggles and the frustrations and the things that she was dealing with at a

949
01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:44,320
young age.

950
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:49,300
And so it just caused me to feel like I wasn't loved.

951
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:52,140
I had no value.

952
01:09:52,140 --> 01:09:55,700
Although playing baseball in Little League, I got plenty of that value.

953
01:09:55,700 --> 01:09:57,020
I got plenty of that love.

954
01:09:57,020 --> 01:09:59,900
I mean, I had great friends in my neighborhood.

955
01:09:59,900 --> 01:10:02,940
I had a wonderful life growing up.

956
01:10:02,940 --> 01:10:11,780
But just that little hint of trauma going way back to when I was two, three, four years

957
01:10:11,780 --> 01:10:22,020
old started to develop in me a story in my own head about who my mom was to me.

958
01:10:22,020 --> 01:10:26,940
And that caused me to go down that road.

959
01:10:26,940 --> 01:10:30,700
That was the trauma in my past anyway.

960
01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:32,900
It's such an important conversation.

961
01:10:32,900 --> 01:10:35,140
There's that phrase, don't compare trauma.

962
01:10:35,140 --> 01:10:36,140
And it's true.

963
01:10:36,140 --> 01:10:39,740
I mean, I've had people on here who were literally boy soldiers.

964
01:10:39,740 --> 01:10:43,220
One gentleman, Ishmael Bay, was a boy soldier in Sierra Leone.

965
01:10:43,220 --> 01:10:44,260
His parents were murdered.

966
01:10:44,260 --> 01:10:47,860
He was forced to kill because you have two options, kill or be killed.

967
01:10:47,860 --> 01:10:49,620
That's it.

968
01:10:49,620 --> 01:10:56,020
Hooked on drugs and then saved by the Red Cross and now is a UNICEF ambassador for child

969
01:10:56,020 --> 01:10:57,020
soldiers.

970
01:10:57,020 --> 01:10:58,020
Amazing.

971
01:10:58,020 --> 01:11:02,140
I've got a friend who was the middle child and the parents had a boy and they wanted

972
01:11:02,140 --> 01:11:03,140
a girl.

973
01:11:03,140 --> 01:11:04,900
They had another boy, which was him.

974
01:11:04,900 --> 01:11:08,620
And then they had a daughter and he fell in love.

975
01:11:08,620 --> 01:11:12,740
And I've met his parents since and I still see it today.

976
01:11:12,740 --> 01:11:16,580
This kind of lack of any maternal, paternal elements.

977
01:11:16,580 --> 01:11:19,940
So it doesn't matter what that backstory is.

978
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:25,700
If it's trauma or if it's unaddressed struggles, then it needs to be addressed.

979
01:11:25,700 --> 01:11:31,700
So it's powerful, I think, for people to hear because something seemingly somewhat small,

980
01:11:31,700 --> 01:11:38,020
I mean, when you compare it to sexual abuse and something else, it's not at all.

981
01:11:38,020 --> 01:11:41,700
We pigeonhole these things and label them and almost rank them.

982
01:11:41,700 --> 01:11:46,700
But something, if you look at the hierarchy of needs, safety, security, love, all these

983
01:11:46,700 --> 01:11:52,620
elements, if a child is raised not having them, then their barometer is skewed.

984
01:11:52,620 --> 01:12:00,460
Then they go into the outside world and they're finding love from a gang or prostitutes or

985
01:12:00,460 --> 01:12:02,140
whatever it is to fill that void.

986
01:12:02,140 --> 01:12:04,620
But as you mentioned, it's chasing the dragon.

987
01:12:04,620 --> 01:12:09,060
It's never filling it because you're never really addressing the thing beneath the thing.

988
01:12:09,060 --> 01:12:10,060
That's right.

989
01:12:10,060 --> 01:12:11,060
That's exactly right.

990
01:12:11,060 --> 01:12:16,820
And, you know, I don't hold my parents responsible in any way, shape or form anymore.

991
01:12:16,820 --> 01:12:23,620
I mean, there was a time that I did have anger and I did have some animosity, but that left

992
01:12:23,620 --> 01:12:26,620
me years and years ago.

993
01:12:26,620 --> 01:12:32,020
I can't even remember the last time I even felt that way towards my parents, both of

994
01:12:32,020 --> 01:12:41,700
whom, you know, I've gone back and retold the story rather than the story of how a three,

995
01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:45,780
four, five year old would interpret what was going on.

996
01:12:45,780 --> 01:12:53,220
I went back and revisited that child trauma as an adult and I changed that story.

997
01:12:53,220 --> 01:12:55,300
And that story is what I just told you.

998
01:12:55,300 --> 01:13:00,540
You know, my mom young, parents young, you know, just trying to figure out life themselves.

999
01:13:00,540 --> 01:13:05,220
And when you really get down to it, we're all struggling in that area.

1000
01:13:05,220 --> 01:13:06,740
We're all trying to find our way.

1001
01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:09,700
We're all trying to figure out this thing called life.

1002
01:13:09,700 --> 01:13:11,880
We all make mistakes.

1003
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:18,340
Some mistakes are so detrimental to who we are as people and the relationships that we

1004
01:13:18,340 --> 01:13:22,480
carry from then on out.

1005
01:13:22,480 --> 01:13:29,020
That if we don't go back and readdress that and change the storyline, that actually is

1006
01:13:29,020 --> 01:13:35,020
more in line with the truth of what was going on rather than the illusion of truth that

1007
01:13:35,020 --> 01:13:42,340
we somehow interpret things to be when we don't deal with the childhood traumas in an

1008
01:13:42,340 --> 01:13:44,340
adult fashion.

1009
01:13:44,340 --> 01:13:45,820
Absolutely.

1010
01:13:45,820 --> 01:13:52,380
Well, speaking of parenting, you kind of led us through, you know, you had this turbulent

1011
01:13:52,380 --> 01:13:57,340
time, then you were able to just find these incredible tools and, you know, solidify your

1012
01:13:57,340 --> 01:13:59,140
marriage again.

1013
01:13:59,140 --> 01:14:05,060
And then December 2013 comes and just cuts you and your wife's or your family's legs

1014
01:14:05,060 --> 01:14:06,220
from under you again.

1015
01:14:06,220 --> 01:14:12,460
So talk to me about Michael, the man, and then kind of lead me through that horrific

1016
01:14:12,460 --> 01:14:16,740
day and the following weeks, months and years.

1017
01:14:16,740 --> 01:14:18,420
Sure.

1018
01:14:18,420 --> 01:14:19,860
Michael McClain Cheatham.

1019
01:14:19,860 --> 01:14:20,860
I tell his name.

1020
01:14:20,860 --> 01:14:22,800
I say his name.

1021
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:32,140
We remember his name every day, and Mike was 23 when he was murdered.

1022
01:14:32,140 --> 01:14:44,580
Leading up to his murder, my son was going to be headed off to the Navy as a corpsman.

1023
01:14:44,580 --> 01:14:51,080
He was accepted and tested and was headed for boot camp to become a corpsman and wanted

1024
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:59,620
nothing more than to go into the military and fight for our freedoms.

1025
01:14:59,620 --> 01:15:05,100
And I don't know if it was the week before or a couple weeks before he was actually supposed

1026
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:06,460
to get shipped off.

1027
01:15:06,460 --> 01:15:11,700
He was out with his buddies and had a little bit too much to drink and tried to drive home

1028
01:15:11,700 --> 01:15:17,860
and ran through a stop sign and ended up crashing into some guy's yard.

1029
01:15:17,860 --> 01:15:24,060
A minor damage, nothing big, but I got a phone call from, it was this chippy at the time,

1030
01:15:24,060 --> 01:15:28,460
CHP officer out in California, called me up and explained to me what was going on.

1031
01:15:28,460 --> 01:15:35,460
And so I drove out to my son and sure enough, he was arrested that night for a deuce and

1032
01:15:35,460 --> 01:15:40,300
just completely changed the course of where he was headed.

1033
01:15:40,300 --> 01:15:49,940
And he had already been very heavily involved with trying to get people to wean off pharmaceutical

1034
01:15:49,940 --> 01:15:51,820
medication.

1035
01:15:51,820 --> 01:16:01,060
In his mind, pharmaceuticals were the root of why he was burying a lot of his friends.

1036
01:16:01,060 --> 01:16:06,460
They would be injured in sporting events, football, basketball, baseball, whatever,

1037
01:16:06,460 --> 01:16:09,460
and they would get put on painkillers.

1038
01:16:09,460 --> 01:16:13,980
And before you know it, they're addicted to these painkillers and docs take them off those

1039
01:16:13,980 --> 01:16:14,980
painkillers.

1040
01:16:14,980 --> 01:16:19,380
And the next thing you know, they're seeking help on the street side.

1041
01:16:19,380 --> 01:16:25,940
And so a lot of this stuff was turning a lot of his friends to heroin and a good handful

1042
01:16:25,940 --> 01:16:30,720
of his friends were being buried at a young age.

1043
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:42,180
And so he got into the cannabis industry and started to develop the different strains that

1044
01:16:42,180 --> 01:16:46,380
could help offset different ailments.

1045
01:16:46,380 --> 01:16:50,900
And I knew that he was going in that direction.

1046
01:16:50,900 --> 01:16:55,120
I just didn't know to the degree at the time.

1047
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,420
And I didn't even know if I really agreed with it yet.

1048
01:16:59,420 --> 01:17:07,080
And I tried to talk him out of it several times to just this is not the time.

1049
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:14,340
This is still too early in the cannabis industry for you to be doing what you're doing.

1050
01:17:14,340 --> 01:17:24,140
And he had a mobile delivery service out in Corona Riverside area and was getting pretty

1051
01:17:24,140 --> 01:17:26,260
well known.

1052
01:17:26,260 --> 01:17:35,180
And he was also living in a mother-in-law quarters that I had in the back half of our

1053
01:17:35,180 --> 01:17:37,000
property.

1054
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,820
And he was living there.

1055
01:17:38,820 --> 01:17:45,740
And I addressed him one time I went to I said, look, man, I can't stop you from doing this.

1056
01:17:45,740 --> 01:17:52,880
I mean, no matter what I say to you, no matter what type of information I give you, from

1057
01:17:52,880 --> 01:18:01,220
my perspective, from what I see on a day to day in my profession when it comes to cannabis,

1058
01:18:01,220 --> 01:18:08,300
when it comes to weed, when it comes to drugs in general, there's a black market that is

1059
01:18:08,300 --> 01:18:09,820
dangerous.

1060
01:18:09,820 --> 01:18:16,260
And I said, I'm fearful of what could happen if you continue going down this road.

1061
01:18:16,260 --> 01:18:23,820
I said, so what I'm going to ask of you is sit down and tell me your why.

1062
01:18:23,820 --> 01:18:25,180
Why are you doing this?

1063
01:18:25,180 --> 01:18:33,100
What is it that makes you so passionate that you're willing to risk all this because it's

1064
01:18:33,100 --> 01:18:34,100
your pursuit?

1065
01:18:34,100 --> 01:18:35,260
It's what your purpose is.

1066
01:18:35,260 --> 01:18:36,940
So just explain it to me.

1067
01:18:36,940 --> 01:18:43,420
And he sat down for the next hour and a half, two hours and proceeded to tell me his why,

1068
01:18:43,420 --> 01:18:47,060
why he was in the cannabis industry.

1069
01:18:47,060 --> 01:18:53,140
And with tears running down his cheek, he said, Dad, I'm tired of burying my friends.

1070
01:18:53,140 --> 01:18:59,340
And I've got the cure to get them off the pharmaceuticals that are killing them.

1071
01:18:59,340 --> 01:19:08,420
And he started telling me story after story after story of people that he's helped wean

1072
01:19:08,420 --> 01:19:14,940
themselves off all of the antidepressants and the painkillers where they could actually

1073
01:19:14,940 --> 01:19:18,100
be functioning as a parent again.

1074
01:19:18,100 --> 01:19:25,900
He told me one lady that one girl that he was, was this client that or patient as he

1075
01:19:25,900 --> 01:19:33,500
referred to it, that was so lucid during the day from all the medications, she couldn't

1076
01:19:33,500 --> 01:19:35,360
even watch her own kids.

1077
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:39,800
And he would show up to deliver the product to her, the medication to her.

1078
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:44,420
And she was already passed out from the drugs that she was on keeping her sane and kids

1079
01:19:44,420 --> 01:19:45,420
running wild.

1080
01:19:45,420 --> 01:19:51,220
And he said, as I started to develop this relationship with her pretty soon, she was

1081
01:19:51,220 --> 01:19:55,900
weaned off of all those bad pharmacies.

1082
01:19:55,900 --> 01:20:00,980
And now she's on a regiment of cannabis that I'm prescribing to her.

1083
01:20:00,980 --> 01:20:03,960
And now she's a functioning mom.

1084
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:07,420
And then he talked about the professionals that he deals with.

1085
01:20:07,420 --> 01:20:12,820
And I mean, I didn't know, I mean, lawyers and doctors and cops and firemen and all these

1086
01:20:12,820 --> 01:20:15,580
people that he was telling me, he didn't tell me who they were.

1087
01:20:15,580 --> 01:20:23,620
But he says, there's a lot of people out there, dad, that are turning to cannabis as an option

1088
01:20:23,620 --> 01:20:27,060
to the pharmaceutical industry.

1089
01:20:27,060 --> 01:20:33,480
And after he told me all that, I said, well, I cannot deny your why.

1090
01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:37,660
And I can see that this is your passion.

1091
01:20:37,660 --> 01:20:46,140
And one thing I know about passion is passion will drive you like no other instrument.

1092
01:20:46,140 --> 01:20:52,360
I mean, it will literally, when you find your passion, you find your why.

1093
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:54,260
Why are you here?

1094
01:20:54,260 --> 01:20:55,820
And he had found his.

1095
01:20:55,820 --> 01:21:02,860
And I only, what I told him was I said, I realized that you have a strong desire and

1096
01:21:02,860 --> 01:21:04,580
a strong passion to help people with this.

1097
01:21:04,580 --> 01:21:10,980
I said, but there's so many people out there that are going to see this totally different.

1098
01:21:10,980 --> 01:21:14,340
I said, but primarily there's people out there that know that even though what you're doing

1099
01:21:14,340 --> 01:21:23,580
is legal, there's a black market that can take your product and completely turn it around

1100
01:21:23,580 --> 01:21:31,980
and be willing to hurt you or even kill you for what you have.

1101
01:21:31,980 --> 01:21:41,260
And within a month, he had moved out of the house because I couldn't have him doing it

1102
01:21:41,260 --> 01:21:42,260
in my house.

1103
01:21:42,260 --> 01:21:49,820
I mean, I fear if someone came to my house and saw you growing back there, and I mean,

1104
01:21:49,820 --> 01:21:53,020
he wasn't growing in the outside, he did indoor grows.

1105
01:21:53,020 --> 01:21:57,980
I said, man, they'll take my pension away.

1106
01:21:57,980 --> 01:22:03,740
I'll end up, you know, probably getting fired, probably get arrested because it's going on.

1107
01:22:03,740 --> 01:22:07,340
I said, son, you cannot do this at my house.

1108
01:22:07,340 --> 01:22:13,420
And so he ended up moving out and he moved out into an apartment.

1109
01:22:13,420 --> 01:22:21,420
He had this guy that was now his delivery driver.

1110
01:22:21,420 --> 01:22:32,340
And he brought him in to teach him how to grow indoor quality medical grade cannabis

1111
01:22:32,340 --> 01:22:40,020
and set the guy up in his house, converted his garage into this indoor grow room, paid

1112
01:22:40,020 --> 01:22:47,520
off all of his previous bills for water and electricity because he tried to do it on his

1113
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:52,420
own before he got connected with Mike and lost everything.

1114
01:22:52,420 --> 01:22:53,900
I mean, he was terrible.

1115
01:22:53,900 --> 01:22:59,060
So Mike made a deal with him, said, look, if you'll do this, I will teach you how to

1116
01:22:59,060 --> 01:23:01,000
do what I do.

1117
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,060
I will set you up for success.

1118
01:23:03,060 --> 01:23:05,560
I'll pay all your previous bills.

1119
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:11,380
The only thing I ask of you is that the first grow, the first harvest is mine.

1120
01:23:11,380 --> 01:23:18,060
And then after that, I will buy from you and you will be my grower.

1121
01:23:18,060 --> 01:23:20,700
And everything was on the up and up.

1122
01:23:20,700 --> 01:23:24,380
Everything looked good until it wasn't.

1123
01:23:24,380 --> 01:23:29,700
And all the product was at my son's apartment.

1124
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:37,260
And this fella ended up coming back from the day's deliveries.

1125
01:23:37,260 --> 01:23:44,380
And he had stolen his brother-in-law's 38 special.

1126
01:23:44,380 --> 01:23:56,020
He had premeditated, fixed the weapon with a homemade silencer by taking a water bottle,

1127
01:23:56,020 --> 01:24:02,780
stuffing it full of microfiber towels and taping it to the muzzle of a 38.

1128
01:24:02,780 --> 01:24:05,460
And Michael got up.

1129
01:24:05,460 --> 01:24:09,500
They were both watching TV and Michael got up to go use the restroom.

1130
01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:17,940
And as he got to the restroom, this guy, the murderer, ended up coming up behind him and

1131
01:24:17,940 --> 01:24:19,780
tried to shoot him.

1132
01:24:19,780 --> 01:24:30,380
And because of the silencer, homemade silencer, the microfiber, the tape on the muzzle, so

1133
01:24:30,380 --> 01:24:37,360
it couldn't rack to reload, so he got one shot off and it missed him, hit the water

1134
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:40,380
faucet in the bathroom and ricocheted up into the ceiling.

1135
01:24:40,380 --> 01:24:43,080
And then at that point, the fight was on.

1136
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:50,100
And so this guy was almost twice Michael's age.

1137
01:24:50,100 --> 01:24:56,540
He probably outweighed him by 75 plus pounds.

1138
01:24:56,540 --> 01:25:01,860
And Michael, like the cops told me, Michael fought for his life.

1139
01:25:01,860 --> 01:25:10,540
And as he was struggling to get to his room to where he kept his weapon, the guy picked

1140
01:25:10,540 --> 01:25:17,340
up Michael's skateboard and clocked him over the side of the head with it and proceeded

1141
01:25:17,340 --> 01:25:23,300
to beat him over the head with his skateboard and then took his belt off and strangled him

1142
01:25:23,300 --> 01:25:33,140
and left my son next to his bed and then took the nightstand that was there and put it over

1143
01:25:33,140 --> 01:25:34,820
Michael's head so he couldn't see it.

1144
01:25:34,820 --> 01:25:39,220
I'm not sure what the reasoning behind that was, but he ended up putting that nightstand

1145
01:25:39,220 --> 01:25:48,920
over my son's head and then played possum as though he was fighting for his life.

1146
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:58,640
In the scuffle of all of that that was going on, the downstairs neighbor heard Michael

1147
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:03,860
scream for help and called the police.

1148
01:26:03,860 --> 01:26:11,940
And so Corona police showed up to my son's apartment and along with Corona fire, one

1149
01:26:11,940 --> 01:26:19,020
of the gentlemen there by the name of Jim Steiner was the captain on that call and was

1150
01:26:19,020 --> 01:26:22,940
a friend of mine, was also their union president.

1151
01:26:22,940 --> 01:26:32,820
And so even though all that was going on, I still had people who I had come to know

1152
01:26:32,820 --> 01:26:40,320
and respect who were on that call with and saw everything that they were dealing with.

1153
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:46,780
And then the man ended up playing possum next to my son and pretended like he was the one

1154
01:26:46,780 --> 01:26:52,060
that was beat and he was just protecting, he fought in self-defense.

1155
01:26:52,060 --> 01:26:57,820
They ended up taking away arresting him that night and next morning is when we found out

1156
01:26:57,820 --> 01:27:07,020
what it actually happened and went to the police department to discuss what the next

1157
01:27:07,020 --> 01:27:08,340
steps were and everything.

1158
01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:13,100
And they just started to ask a lot of questions about who this Frank character was.

1159
01:27:13,100 --> 01:27:14,100
And I had no idea.

1160
01:27:14,100 --> 01:27:19,220
I knew he was working with Mike and had no idea to the level and what was going on.

1161
01:27:19,220 --> 01:27:21,060
He kept that stuff away from me.

1162
01:27:21,060 --> 01:27:26,620
I don't think he wanted to get me to be afraid of what was happening.

1163
01:27:26,620 --> 01:27:34,940
But nonetheless, the guy was arrested and had the second shortest trial, a conviction

1164
01:27:34,940 --> 01:27:37,100
in a trial in Riverside County history.

1165
01:27:37,100 --> 01:27:38,700
It was just a little over a year.

1166
01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:45,220
He was convicted and off to prison for pretty much the rest of his life and leaving us to

1167
01:27:45,220 --> 01:27:53,340
deal with the aftermath of being a victim of a violent crime and the trauma that that

1168
01:27:53,340 --> 01:27:55,700
throws a family into.

1169
01:27:55,700 --> 01:28:06,060
And so here I am, now my early 50s, I think I was 51 at the time, and dealing with the

1170
01:28:06,060 --> 01:28:18,420
loss of my oldest son and the trauma that it was causing his brother, Kyle, who he knew

1171
01:28:18,420 --> 01:28:20,660
his whole life revolved around Mike.

1172
01:28:20,660 --> 01:28:24,300
Those two were so tight and so close.

1173
01:28:24,300 --> 01:28:26,960
And they did everything together.

1174
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:30,460
And I'll even tell you another little story about that.

1175
01:28:30,460 --> 01:28:35,700
They were so close that for the first four years of Kyle's life, Kyle didn't even have

1176
01:28:35,700 --> 01:28:40,180
to speak because Michael spoke for him.

1177
01:28:40,180 --> 01:28:46,420
So he just sat back and Kyle just observed everything that was going on around him and

1178
01:28:46,420 --> 01:28:51,260
didn't have to engage in any communication because his big brother was there.

1179
01:28:51,260 --> 01:28:54,140
He would come up and ask us for something and we couldn't even understand what he said

1180
01:28:54,140 --> 01:28:55,260
because he wasn't speaking.

1181
01:28:55,260 --> 01:29:01,420
He was just talking and just pointing.

1182
01:29:01,420 --> 01:29:03,820
And his brother would interpret, oh, he wants this.

1183
01:29:03,820 --> 01:29:06,020
I'm like, how do you understand what he's asking?

1184
01:29:06,020 --> 01:29:07,020
He goes, I don't know.

1185
01:29:07,020 --> 01:29:08,020
That's what he wants.

1186
01:29:08,020 --> 01:29:10,620
And sure enough, I'd ask him, is that what you want?

1187
01:29:10,620 --> 01:29:11,620
And he'd shake his head.

1188
01:29:11,620 --> 01:29:12,620
Yeah.

1189
01:29:12,620 --> 01:29:16,460
So their bond was almost more than just through language.

1190
01:29:16,460 --> 01:29:19,340
It was almost telepathy.

1191
01:29:19,340 --> 01:29:25,660
These two were so close that their thoughts were entwined with each other.

1192
01:29:25,660 --> 01:29:32,180
And to watch what happened to him and to see his world cave in was just heartbreaking.

1193
01:29:32,180 --> 01:29:35,460
And then my daughter, who was 13 at the time, she's 23 now.

1194
01:29:35,460 --> 01:29:39,660
She's the same age as my son was when he lost his life.

1195
01:29:39,660 --> 01:29:46,900
So at 13, to see what she went through breaks a father's heart.

1196
01:29:46,900 --> 01:29:51,420
And then to see what my wife was going through breaks a husband's heart.

1197
01:29:51,420 --> 01:30:00,580
So as a dad, as a husband, I wanted to help everyone get through what was going on because

1198
01:30:00,580 --> 01:30:10,820
I knew we were about to go into a world when a crucible of life that is enough to take

1199
01:30:10,820 --> 01:30:12,260
most families out.

1200
01:30:12,260 --> 01:30:18,020
In fact, most marriages end in divorce after the loss of a child.

1201
01:30:18,020 --> 01:30:21,120
And I didn't want that to happen to our family.

1202
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:36,420
And so I pulled our whole family together and I said, I want you all to promise me,

1203
01:30:36,420 --> 01:30:44,580
promise me that we will not allow this to break our family apart and that we will do

1204
01:30:44,580 --> 01:30:51,620
anything and everything we can in our power to come together and work through it.

1205
01:30:51,620 --> 01:30:54,580
And we all agreed.

1206
01:30:54,580 --> 01:31:04,020
And as much as I wanted that to be the case, I knew that I had to start speaking that.

1207
01:31:04,020 --> 01:31:06,060
I had to start saying that.

1208
01:31:06,060 --> 01:31:10,620
Otherwise we were going to end up just spinning out of control.

1209
01:31:10,620 --> 01:31:13,700
So I wanted to verbalize it, get it out there into the world.

1210
01:31:13,700 --> 01:31:15,340
Take it.

1211
01:31:15,340 --> 01:31:18,100
We will not let this break our family up.

1212
01:31:18,100 --> 01:31:20,140
We will work through this.

1213
01:31:20,140 --> 01:31:22,100
We will come out of this.

1214
01:31:22,100 --> 01:31:24,220
We will get on the other side of this.

1215
01:31:24,220 --> 01:31:27,940
We will become an influence to help others going through this.

1216
01:31:27,940 --> 01:31:31,020
And I just kept saying that over and over in my head.

1217
01:31:31,020 --> 01:31:39,600
And my family agreed with me that they would not allow this to break us up.

1218
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:50,380
But watching what my son had to go through as he navigated that, people have no idea.

1219
01:31:50,380 --> 01:31:51,380
It's hard on the parents.

1220
01:31:51,380 --> 01:31:52,380
Yeah, it is.

1221
01:31:52,380 --> 01:31:56,300
It's hard on the parents.

1222
01:31:56,300 --> 01:32:05,940
But in so many ways, it's even harder on the children, especially a brother and a brother

1223
01:32:05,940 --> 01:32:07,980
that were so close.

1224
01:32:07,980 --> 01:32:13,260
And it literally drove my son into a tailspin where he had to now start fighting his own

1225
01:32:13,260 --> 01:32:16,880
dragons and his own demons.

1226
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:21,820
And we navigated through a lot of shit.

1227
01:32:21,820 --> 01:32:29,340
And he came out on the other side recently, just recently.

1228
01:32:29,340 --> 01:32:32,060
It's been a 10-year journey for him.

1229
01:32:32,060 --> 01:32:39,940
And one of the things that helped him to get through it is he was hired by Anaheim Fire.

1230
01:32:39,940 --> 01:32:41,340
He got hired by our department.

1231
01:32:41,340 --> 01:32:49,500
Yeah, but unfortunately, because of all that he was going through at the time, he got put

1232
01:32:49,500 --> 01:32:55,780
in that position very quickly because we had the ambulance program at Anaheim and my son

1233
01:32:55,780 --> 01:32:56,900
got hired with that.

1234
01:32:56,900 --> 01:33:02,300
So the first ambulance program with Anaheim, my son got hired with it.

1235
01:33:02,300 --> 01:33:07,140
So he was starting his career, wanted to be a fireman, and everything was moving in the

1236
01:33:07,140 --> 01:33:08,140
right direction.

1237
01:33:08,140 --> 01:33:09,140
But he had no fire experience.

1238
01:33:09,140 --> 01:33:10,580
He only had his EMT stuff.

1239
01:33:10,580 --> 01:33:12,620
So he didn't have a lot of skill set on the fire side.

1240
01:33:12,620 --> 01:33:16,840
Well, I was already out here in Tennessee and he was still in California.

1241
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:22,480
So I wasn't able to really pour into him as far as training goes and what he needed.

1242
01:33:22,480 --> 01:33:26,980
So he ended up going through the academy and unfortunately he was not successful and they

1243
01:33:26,980 --> 01:33:29,460
had to let him go in the academy.

1244
01:33:29,460 --> 01:33:32,700
And that rocked his world.

1245
01:33:32,700 --> 01:33:39,920
And it put him in a place where he had to start dealing with that trauma.

1246
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:40,920
And he did.

1247
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:47,780
And he called me up back this last August and explained to me a lot of the stuff that

1248
01:33:47,780 --> 01:33:53,100
he was dealing with and the trauma that I had caused even as a dad.

1249
01:33:53,100 --> 01:33:57,020
And we walked through it and we worked it out and went through counseling.

1250
01:33:57,020 --> 01:33:58,020
We still do that.

1251
01:33:58,020 --> 01:34:02,900
We still counsel together even to this day.

1252
01:34:02,900 --> 01:34:12,580
And he's now taken that story and revamped his own history.

1253
01:34:12,580 --> 01:34:16,640
And now he's got his first season under his belt with CAL FIRE.

1254
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:22,060
He's getting the fire training that he needs to get now and to finally see him at that

1255
01:34:22,060 --> 01:34:25,080
level of been over 10 years now.

1256
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:31,780
And he's starting to get his groove and he's starting to move in the direction that makes

1257
01:34:31,780 --> 01:34:33,560
a dad so proud.

1258
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:40,020
But I just keep remembering back to that challenge, do not let this break our family up.

1259
01:34:40,020 --> 01:34:44,480
And as hard as it's been, our family has stayed together.

1260
01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:47,600
My wife and I have stayed connected.

1261
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:50,980
We've watched our children struggle and it's okay.

1262
01:34:50,980 --> 01:34:52,120
We just love them.

1263
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:53,120
We love them through it.

1264
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:57,880
We don't try to criticize them or condemn them or judge them for stupid things that

1265
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,480
they do or say.

1266
01:35:00,480 --> 01:35:06,620
But we just encourage them to continue to move forward and don't stop.

1267
01:35:06,620 --> 01:35:18,540
And it's been very inspiring as a dad to watch both of them deal with their own shit and

1268
01:35:18,540 --> 01:35:21,180
their own trauma.

1269
01:35:21,180 --> 01:35:26,900
But at the same time, they have the resources of their mom and dad to talk to them about

1270
01:35:26,900 --> 01:35:33,680
it, which in many cases you lose that after the death because parents ended up, they end

1271
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:35,760
up divorcing.

1272
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:41,760
And that brings in a whole new set of traumas that you got to deal with.

1273
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,960
So I guess all that to say, that was the story that happened with Mike.

1274
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:56,000
The 10 year journey after that has created the opportunity for not only me and Kelly

1275
01:35:56,000 --> 01:36:01,660
to go through this together, my wife, but to watch our children as they navigate through

1276
01:36:01,660 --> 01:36:03,620
it as well.

1277
01:36:03,620 --> 01:36:10,160
Well, firstly, again, thank you for sharing Mike's story.

1278
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:16,160
The takeaways from what you guys dealt with, but also this is another opportunity to bring

1279
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:21,080
to life someone who was snatched from the world.

1280
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:26,960
But I think what's so important or so powerful about your family's journey is again, that

1281
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:28,880
post-traumatic growth conversation.

1282
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:34,240
I think when it comes to mental health, it's almost like we got our trouser leg caught

1283
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:35,240
in 2015.

1284
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:38,880
We're trying to move forward, but it's like, oh, stigma, stigma, stigma.

1285
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:40,440
We're way beyond that now.

1286
01:36:40,440 --> 01:36:41,960
Not everyone, but most of us.

1287
01:36:41,960 --> 01:36:46,320
It's like, how do we find the tools that are going to help?

1288
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:52,760
And again, whether it's cannabis, psychedelics, ayahuasca, equine therapy, EMDR, whatever

1289
01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:53,760
the thing is.

1290
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:58,000
There's so much out there that we don't even know about, at least I didn't know about until

1291
01:36:58,000 --> 01:36:59,960
I was thrust into it.

1292
01:36:59,960 --> 01:37:01,560
Exactly, exactly.

1293
01:37:01,560 --> 01:37:03,640
But I think it's that hope conversation.

1294
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:08,640
You can't change what happened, but you can change the way that you react to it.

1295
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:13,240
And your trauma from being a little boy, which arguably again, is a theme that comes up over

1296
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:17,840
and over again, multi-generational trauma, the environment that your parents were raised

1297
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:20,840
in, and their parents, et cetera, et cetera.

1298
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:27,480
But also the hope, the resilience that going through the crucible, going through that trauma

1299
01:37:27,480 --> 01:37:31,040
with your son now on that fire journey.

1300
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:35,280
He just wasn't ready when he first went, but now he's ready because he was forced to go

1301
01:37:35,280 --> 01:37:36,280
through that.

1302
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,520
So I think there's such a powerful takeaway.

1303
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,560
One time did you say, oh, did I mention it was fun?

1304
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:43,560
No.

1305
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:45,400
You know what I mean?

1306
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:51,440
It's going to be horrible, but the hope, that beacon of light, that post-traumatic growth,

1307
01:37:51,440 --> 01:37:57,680
that resilience that is forged when you are forced to go through that trauma and heal

1308
01:37:57,680 --> 01:38:02,480
from that trauma and have that extra strength that you've got, that extra layer of scar

1309
01:38:02,480 --> 01:38:05,520
tissue that you never would have had before.

1310
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:10,440
That is out of such a tragic story, a beautiful ending to it.

1311
01:38:10,440 --> 01:38:16,360
I would say ending's the wrong word, but a beautiful ripple effect of Michael's death.

1312
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:17,360
Right.

1313
01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:18,360
Right.

1314
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:19,360
Yeah.

1315
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:20,360
Yeah, I agree.

1316
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:27,040
Grieving is so different for everyone.

1317
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:31,280
Everybody grieves differently.

1318
01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:44,520
I knew that my grief could take me down a dark path, but I also knew from my history

1319
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:48,880
that you can change that storyline.

1320
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:54,000
You can, for lack of a better word, rebrand what happened.

1321
01:38:54,000 --> 01:39:01,240
It doesn't have to be the final act.

1322
01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:10,240
It's just something that happened, and then based off of that, it propels you into a new

1323
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:16,720
era or a new journey of life where you have to find purpose and meaning.

1324
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:21,880
Finding that purpose and meaning through the death of a son, I don't even know if I've

1325
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:34,480
ever have found it totally, but I do know that his death set me free from the bondage

1326
01:39:34,480 --> 01:39:38,040
of religion.

1327
01:39:38,040 --> 01:39:43,080
It was after his death that I was able to finally know all the stuff that has been swirling

1328
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:51,920
in the questions and the concerns and the inconsistencies that the paradigm of religion

1329
01:39:51,920 --> 01:40:04,480
puts out there as well-intentioned as it may be and as pure as it might be from a position

1330
01:40:04,480 --> 01:40:17,160
of doing what's best for other people, there's so much in the jargon of religion that does

1331
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:29,080
more to disable us to find that purpose and move forward and gives people a reason or

1332
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:38,160
justification to hate, to not forgive.

1333
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:46,480
The hardest thing in the journey for me was forgiving the man that brutally murdered my

1334
01:40:46,480 --> 01:40:48,920
son.

1335
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:54,320
I knew that the minute that happened, I knew that my next journey was going to be a journey

1336
01:40:54,320 --> 01:41:01,160
of learning how to forgive like I had learned how to forgive myself because I know how wretched

1337
01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:02,160
I was.

1338
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:13,920
I don't want to say evil, but for the lack of a better word, what I was doing to my wife

1339
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:15,360
was evil.

1340
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:17,000
It was hurtful.

1341
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:20,720
It was self-centered.

1342
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:25,840
I could see that I didn't want to do that, but yet there was something taking me down

1343
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:26,840
that road.

1344
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:36,440
When it came to Frank, I had to come to grips with that and say, okay, this is what you

1345
01:41:36,440 --> 01:41:37,440
believe.

1346
01:41:37,440 --> 01:41:38,440
Now, do you really believe it?

1347
01:41:38,440 --> 01:41:46,520
I mean, is he forgivable or is it justified to hold on to the anger and the resentment

1348
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:50,800
and the bitterness and the hate that you have for this man?

1349
01:41:50,800 --> 01:42:00,920
Believe me, going through the trial, I literally sat on the front row with a wall between me

1350
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:09,000
and maybe about 10 feet of space between where he sat at the defendant's table.

1351
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:14,640
There was more than one occasion I would look around to kind of see where all the bailiffs

1352
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:23,280
were and calculate in my own mind how quick I could go over there and take this guy out

1353
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,720
before getting caught.

1354
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:31,200
What kind of damage could I do before getting taken down by the cops?

1355
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:33,500
Those thoughts came through my head.

1356
01:42:33,500 --> 01:42:39,800
As I'm wrestling with all that during the trial, I knew I can't live my life like that.

1357
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:44,420
I'm going to have to learn to forgive even this.

1358
01:42:44,420 --> 01:42:47,520
That was my journey, was learning how to do that.

1359
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:56,180
Forgive the man that killed my son and love on my own family enough to where they too

1360
01:42:56,180 --> 01:43:00,400
could get to a place, maybe not a forgiveness if that was the case, but at least they could

1361
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:04,640
get to a place where they could function with a purpose.

1362
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:09,480
That was the mindset at the time.

1363
01:43:09,480 --> 01:43:14,000
It's an interesting perspective when you're talking about religion versus your specific

1364
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,480
individual faith or spirituality.

1365
01:43:16,480 --> 01:43:19,600
This is where I've just been for a long, long time.

1366
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:20,800
I was raised in the Church of England.

1367
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:28,760
I went to Sunday school and watched my parents not really seemingly believe themselves, but

1368
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:34,000
they took us to church and gave us every opportunity to be pulled into that.

1369
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:41,160
That particular way of presenting the teachings to me didn't resonate even as a little boy,

1370
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:45,520
but I've been incredibly spiritual my whole life.

1371
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:48,320
To me, you just walk outside and see nature.

1372
01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:53,800
To me, that's God's work, my God, the one that I believe in.

1373
01:43:53,800 --> 01:43:59,720
When you have, for example, a nation that's supposed to be so faith-based, whatever their

1374
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:06,960
faith is, and yet you hear the rhetoric on homelessness or addiction or sex workers,

1375
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:11,800
it's not what Buddha or Jesus would say or do.

1376
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:13,280
This is where I have that disconnect.

1377
01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:14,760
It's like, well, hold on a second.

1378
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:19,560
Every Sunday, you tell me you're in this building and you tell me you're this fucking amazingly

1379
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:26,000
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever person, but then you walk out the door and you don't

1380
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:30,800
seem to understand the core tenets, which for me is a white belt Bible understander,

1381
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:37,440
for lack of a better word, get, love, community, compassion, acceptance.

1382
01:44:37,440 --> 01:44:38,440
Where's this disconnect?

1383
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:43,240
So not picking on any particular group, but this is where I feel that that pigeonholing

1384
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:44,240
gets dangerous.

1385
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:48,840
And then you start saying, oh, well, God loves everyone except the gay, so whatever.

1386
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:51,640
And then you really fucking lost me after that point.

1387
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:54,040
But it's that disconnect.

1388
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:58,160
If you're not being a good person, if someone says to you, what do we need to do about the

1389
01:44:58,160 --> 01:45:02,800
addiction crisis or the obesity and your answer or the immigration, whatever the answer is

1390
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:09,880
anything less than what Jesus would reply with or, you know, whoever your your deity

1391
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:13,160
or your prophet is, then you've missed the point.

1392
01:45:13,160 --> 01:45:18,520
If it's not coming from love and community and kindness and empathy, to me, you've missed

1393
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:19,520
the point.

1394
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:26,240
So that's where I love this kind of the stoke bespoke version of spirituality.

1395
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:30,180
Why should mine be the same as my wife's, the same as my son with three different types

1396
01:45:30,180 --> 01:45:35,280
of people on our own journey, with our own trauma and our own passions?

1397
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:40,760
And so if the tenants are there, that to me is the most important thing.

1398
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:45,160
And if you're in whatever the churches that we just mentioned and you're a beautiful,

1399
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:48,240
kind person, then your religion is working for you 100 percent.

1400
01:45:48,240 --> 01:45:49,240
Absolutely.

1401
01:45:49,240 --> 01:45:56,000
But if you're not, then maybe just maybe it's time to kind of think, oh, can I can I take

1402
01:45:56,000 --> 01:46:00,160
the things that are working for me, but also take some other things and get myself back

1403
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:04,520
onto a road where, as they say, you know, what would Jesus do?

1404
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:06,860
I'm not talking about singing songs about him.

1405
01:46:06,860 --> 01:46:08,360
What would he actually do?

1406
01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:12,840
He'd be anointing the poor and raising the fallen.

1407
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:15,040
He wouldn't be judging and building walls.

1408
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:16,640
Exactly right.

1409
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:26,320
I think the words he said was, you know, you go out into the world and you try to teach

1410
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:30,640
them how to have a relationship with God.

1411
01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:34,780
And one of the tools he used was, first of all, you got to know who God is.

1412
01:46:34,780 --> 01:46:37,480
So let's define him first.

1413
01:46:37,480 --> 01:46:42,400
And once we define who God is, then we can have a roadmap to follow.

1414
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:44,080
And here's who God is.

1415
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:47,040
God is love.

1416
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:48,040
Period.

1417
01:46:48,040 --> 01:46:50,200
That's who God is.

1418
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:51,200
It's love.

1419
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:54,080
So when we act in love, we're being godly.

1420
01:46:54,080 --> 01:46:59,160
When we act in judgment, criticism, anger, resentment, bitterness, hostility, and the

1421
01:46:59,160 --> 01:47:11,360
whole gamut of what our flesh, our physical nature finds as normal or natural, those are

1422
01:47:11,360 --> 01:47:14,080
things we do out of fear.

1423
01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:23,840
And so for me, it became very easy to dissect what was being spoken.

1424
01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:29,120
I looked at things through two lenses, fear and love.

1425
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:35,640
And I came to the agreement with myself in understanding that anything that is acting

1426
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:42,000
out of love was acting out of God, and anything that was acting out of fear was acting out

1427
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:49,500
of my own insecurities where I need to start working at why am I fearful of this and start

1428
01:47:49,500 --> 01:47:53,520
dissecting it and start doing the work.

1429
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:55,480
There's only two emotions that I know of.

1430
01:47:55,480 --> 01:47:56,780
It's fear and love.

1431
01:47:56,780 --> 01:47:59,220
But each one of those emotions, those are the root emotions.

1432
01:47:59,220 --> 01:48:05,040
But each emotion has a core or a set of other emotions that stem from that.

1433
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:08,640
So they're either a positive emotion or a negative emotion.

1434
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:13,720
And the negative emotion is what drives us down away from love.

1435
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:20,540
Whereas love pulls us away from the negative emotions that we can classify as our flesh

1436
01:48:20,540 --> 01:48:27,720
or our natural being or the natural state of what we are and what we strive for.

1437
01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:36,200
And looking at through those two lenses gave me the ability to look at my own religion.

1438
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:40,040
My dad was a preacher in this particular church.

1439
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,360
My uncle was a preacher in the church.

1440
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:44,160
My grandfather was in the church.

1441
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:49,480
I've got four generations that went back almost to where this denomination began, although

1442
01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:53,640
they won't tell you they're a denomination, they're a non-denomination.

1443
01:48:53,640 --> 01:49:00,240
They just don't have any central headquarters or somebody over the entire organization.

1444
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,040
They're all independent, which is a beautiful thing.

1445
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:05,360
It really is.

1446
01:49:05,360 --> 01:49:09,760
But when I started looking at it through the lens of fear and love, and then I looked at

1447
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:14,600
the results, what were the results we were producing?

1448
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:19,120
Because I know what the power of commitment produces, it produces results.

1449
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:25,520
So if this is who we say we are, and this is what we say we believe, then we should

1450
01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:33,240
have an influence in the world and the world should start changing to be more like the

1451
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:37,520
loving God that we profess to teach.

1452
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:39,880
But what I saw was the actual opposite.

1453
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:41,640
I saw more division.

1454
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:44,040
I saw the lack of unity.

1455
01:49:44,040 --> 01:49:51,760
I saw the judgment and criticism of not only other religions, but other denominations within

1456
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:53,600
my own religion.

1457
01:49:53,600 --> 01:50:00,000
And then I was coming from a group of folks that I'm not trying to badmouth or bash because

1458
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:01,000
I am not.

1459
01:50:01,000 --> 01:50:03,680
I love the denomination I came out of.

1460
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:11,620
They did so much for my development into understanding the scripture and interpreting it in a way

1461
01:50:11,620 --> 01:50:16,480
that works.

1462
01:50:16,480 --> 01:50:22,040
On the other hand of that though, it becomes very legalistic.

1463
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:29,660
And love, as much as it's a proponent of who we need to be and who God is, we are also

1464
01:50:29,660 --> 01:50:35,480
justified in righteous indignation against the gays or against people that we don't

1465
01:50:35,480 --> 01:50:38,760
think God loves.

1466
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:42,760
And when we get to a place in our lives where we can say, well, God favors me more than

1467
01:50:42,760 --> 01:50:45,000
he favors you, then we ain't serving God anymore.

1468
01:50:45,000 --> 01:50:46,000
I'm just sorry.

1469
01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:47,000
You can't.

1470
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:48,000
Love doesn't do that.

1471
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:54,420
Love does not favor somebody over somebody else, regardless of what they're doing, because

1472
01:50:54,420 --> 01:50:55,840
God knows my situation.

1473
01:50:55,840 --> 01:51:03,080
And going through addiction and going through the death of my son, there's a lot of things

1474
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:08,440
that, you know, I'm certain that what I was doing and what I was thinking from a religious

1475
01:51:08,440 --> 01:51:13,920
point of reference, I was certain that I was wrong.

1476
01:51:13,920 --> 01:51:19,180
I remember my wife even saying, what if Michael's in hell?

1477
01:51:19,180 --> 01:51:22,480
And I told her, I said, baby, we don't got to worry about that.

1478
01:51:22,480 --> 01:51:29,240
I said, hell doesn't even exist except in the minds of those who want to believe that

1479
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:32,360
there is a fear that we have to stay away from.

1480
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:37,680
And so they use it as a fear to keep us from moving in a direction that will by nature

1481
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:43,760
help us to understand the spiritual principles that are being taught in the Bible.

1482
01:51:43,760 --> 01:51:46,880
Love your enemies as yourself.

1483
01:51:46,880 --> 01:51:48,480
Love your neighbor as yourself.

1484
01:51:48,480 --> 01:51:56,480
And for God's sake, I mean, the very people that nailed Jesus to a cross after, you know,

1485
01:51:56,480 --> 01:52:04,480
putting them through a mock trial and convicting him on lies and beating him and opening his

1486
01:52:04,480 --> 01:52:10,000
back with leather straps so that blood was just gushing down his backside and then throw

1487
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:15,880
a linen garment on it so it coagulated to the backside of his skin.

1488
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:22,000
And then to rip that off after the scabs had coagulated to nail him on a cross and, you

1489
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:26,680
know, raise that cross up and kick it into a four foot hole after his hands have been

1490
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:29,200
nailed to it and just starting to rip the tenon.

1491
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:34,100
It's a part of a, I mean, you just think about what he went through.

1492
01:52:34,100 --> 01:52:44,960
And his words, not mine, his words, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

1493
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:54,680
That started to question my own understanding of if they can be forgiven and if I can be

1494
01:52:54,680 --> 01:52:59,080
forgiven then everybody can be forgiven.

1495
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:05,040
The question is, is forgiveness something that I have to literally ask for and accept

1496
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:10,400
or can my life naturally cause me to go and go, you know what, that ain't working for

1497
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:11,400
me no more.

1498
01:53:11,400 --> 01:53:14,080
I got to, I'm not feeling love.

1499
01:53:14,080 --> 01:53:15,080
I'm feeling resentment.

1500
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:16,080
I'm feeling anger.

1501
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:17,080
I'm feeling hostility.

1502
01:53:17,080 --> 01:53:18,080
I'm feeling all these things.

1503
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:23,600
And that has to be what changes our focus.

1504
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:29,460
Instead of trying to dial in on the dogma and trying to take scripture and apply it

1505
01:53:29,460 --> 01:53:34,520
literally in every single case, you know, I'm going to get a lot of heat from a lot

1506
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:41,560
of the religious folks out there, but the reality is this.

1507
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:49,800
If I believed what I was taught, then I would have no hope of going to heaven because every

1508
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:57,120
time I did what I did, I did it knowingly and I chose it.

1509
01:53:57,120 --> 01:54:04,040
So how does a guy that chooses to cheat on his wife, not with indiscriminate affairs,

1510
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:17,080
but with prostitutes, strip clubs, pornography, and rip a family apart, if I can be forgiven

1511
01:54:17,080 --> 01:54:23,960
of that, even when I was in my guilt, even when I was still doing, I mean, like I said,

1512
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:27,640
my most vivid prayer, I was literally looking for prostitutes.

1513
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:33,280
I was driving the street looking for prostitutes, crying, looking and asking, God, please help

1514
01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:34,280
me.

1515
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:35,280
I don't want to do this.

1516
01:54:35,280 --> 01:54:38,320
I don't want to be doing this and did it anyway.

1517
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:42,340
So had I died at that very moment where I'm crying out, please help me.

1518
01:54:42,340 --> 01:54:43,340
But I still continued.

1519
01:54:43,340 --> 01:54:44,880
Sorry, dude, you're going to hell.

1520
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:45,880
Don't care.

1521
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:46,880
You're done.

1522
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:55,080
That's a hard thing for me to understand because I'm very honest with who I am.

1523
01:54:55,080 --> 01:55:00,760
And I know that my journey is despicable as my addiction was.

1524
01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:02,800
It's made me who I am.

1525
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:06,800
And without it, I wouldn't be Rick Cheatham standing here today talking to you.

1526
01:55:06,800 --> 01:55:10,180
I wouldn't be that guy.

1527
01:55:10,180 --> 01:55:17,640
But it took me that experience to become who I was to get into the fire service.

1528
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:23,000
And it was through that fire service journey that I was able to deal with so much trauma

1529
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:28,920
and so much tragedy on the people we respond to that that was able to be parlayed into

1530
01:55:28,920 --> 01:55:33,720
what was going on with my own son and our own family suffered that tragedy.

1531
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:39,560
I mean, it's such a powerful perspective and I couldn't agree with you more.

1532
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:44,280
And if people have issues with what you said, it doesn't matter because you're in your

1533
01:55:44,280 --> 01:55:45,280
own journey as well.

1534
01:55:45,280 --> 01:55:46,280
And they can say it.

1535
01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:47,280
I don't even care anymore, man.

1536
01:55:47,280 --> 01:55:50,320
In fact, most people don't even they won't even come up and talk to me about it anymore.

1537
01:55:50,320 --> 01:55:54,800
They know that trying to talk to me about it now is I'll listen, but you're going to

1538
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:58,320
get nowhere real fast.

1539
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:01,320
And I'll ask some questions that you're not going to be able to answer and you're going

1540
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:03,720
to go back to just dogma.

1541
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:11,280
And whenever you interpret our current standards of religion today by what was written 2000

1542
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:16,880
years ago in a different time, a different culture, a different people, a different land,

1543
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:18,220
everything was different.

1544
01:56:18,220 --> 01:56:21,360
And you want to take everything and say this is literal.

1545
01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:24,760
I mean, for God's sake, we're waiting for Armageddon right now.

1546
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,680
Everybody everybody I hear saying, oh, wow, and the end's coming soon.

1547
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:29,520
The world's going to burn up and blow up.

1548
01:56:29,520 --> 01:56:32,560
And you know that Jesus is going to come back and all this stuff.

1549
01:56:32,560 --> 01:56:39,320
And I just sit back and I shake my head and say, well, that's not how I see it.

1550
01:56:39,320 --> 01:56:40,960
That's not how I see it at all.

1551
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:49,760
In fact, it's that very mentality that has got people so fearful that the predominant

1552
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:56,680
emotion today in Christian circles is fear God.

1553
01:56:56,680 --> 01:56:57,680
That is what we do.

1554
01:56:57,680 --> 01:56:59,360
We fear God to keep his commandments.

1555
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:03,280
No, I'm going to start preaching here in a minute, and I don't want to do that.

1556
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:07,320
But you know, fearing God, how do you fear love?

1557
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:08,320
I just curious.

1558
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:13,200
I mean, if anybody loves me unconditionally, no matter what I do, they're going to love

1559
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:14,520
me unconditionally.

1560
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:15,680
What does unconditionally means?

1561
01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:17,540
That means without condition.

1562
01:57:17,540 --> 01:57:22,360
He loves me without condition until I die and I didn't get baptized and I didn't believe

1563
01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:25,320
the way I was supposed to believe and I didn't go to the church I was supposed to go.

1564
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:27,680
Sorry, man, you're going to hell for the rest of your life.

1565
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:28,680
What kind of God is that?

1566
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:29,680
God is not love.

1567
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:31,800
I'm sorry, it's not love.

1568
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,640
But he's a just God and God being just is loving.

1569
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:37,520
Well, that's your God.

1570
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:41,760
My God is the guy that was nailed on that cross and said, Father, forgive them, for

1571
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:43,400
they know not what they do.

1572
01:57:43,400 --> 01:57:48,040
Just like I didn't know what I was doing when I was nailing them to the cross.

1573
01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:54,200
And it was through the experience of those consequences that changed my behavior, not

1574
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:57,520
the doctrine that I read in the scripture.

1575
01:57:57,520 --> 01:57:58,840
Absolutely.

1576
01:57:58,840 --> 01:58:03,160
There's a guy, Wayne Dyer, who I loved, absolutely loved.

1577
01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:04,160
You familiar with this work?

1578
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:05,160
Phenomenal, man.

1579
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:06,160
Phenomenal.

1580
01:58:06,160 --> 01:58:07,160
And I loved it.

1581
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:12,720
I forget how he phrased it, but he was like, I don't think that God is a withholding God,

1582
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:18,480
meaning that he's got the answers to your prayers, but you have to kneel down and say

1583
01:58:18,480 --> 01:58:23,040
enough prayers first before he goes, all right, then go have this stuff now.

1584
01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:26,080
And I was like, that's it.

1585
01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:40,760
And to try to tell somebody who's gone through the loss of their son that because your son

1586
01:58:40,760 --> 01:58:45,080
didn't go to the church that you thought he should have or believe what you think he should

1587
01:58:45,080 --> 01:58:51,280
have or was acting the way you think he should have, that somehow he's in fear of judgment

1588
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:53,880
for condemnation.

1589
01:58:53,880 --> 01:59:00,400
Man, with that kind of fear out there, there's no wonder this world's in the mess that it's

1590
01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:01,400
in.

1591
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:06,360
It's not because of the people that live here.

1592
01:59:06,360 --> 01:59:09,080
It's because of the belief systems that we've bought into.

1593
01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:16,240
We've bought into a lot of lies, and those lies are destroying the fabric of our society.

1594
01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:19,520
And if we would all just come together and say, hey, look, here's what God is.

1595
01:59:19,520 --> 01:59:20,520
He's love.

1596
01:59:20,520 --> 01:59:23,280
How loving are you today?

1597
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:24,880
And be honest with it.

1598
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:29,320
Well, I'm judging this man over here because I have the right to.

1599
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:31,320
Well, who gives you the right to judge?

1600
01:59:31,320 --> 01:59:33,520
Righteous indignation, righteous anger.

1601
01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:38,720
I'm sorry, man, but I can be angry and I can be upset.

1602
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:40,400
And believe me, I do.

1603
01:59:40,400 --> 01:59:41,840
I am.

1604
01:59:41,840 --> 01:59:49,960
However, it doesn't grab me the way that it did at one time and hold me locked in to that

1605
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:51,960
fear-based mentality.

1606
01:59:51,960 --> 01:59:54,640
It set me free since Michael died.

1607
01:59:54,640 --> 01:59:56,960
I've been set free from that.

1608
01:59:56,960 --> 02:00:03,520
And I truly sought after that relationship with God in a way that became so real that

1609
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:04,520
it was undeniable.

1610
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:10,440
And I can go for hours on the stuff that God has taken me down different roads and different

1611
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:15,480
paths that you cannot deny His existence.

1612
02:00:15,480 --> 02:00:20,000
And if He was doing that, and I'm not practicing what you think I should be practicing as my

1613
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:27,520
religious heritage, then how in the hell am I getting this?

1614
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:35,240
How is this deity influencing me and causing me to go down these paths that I would have

1615
02:00:35,240 --> 02:00:36,240
never...

1616
02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:41,860
Who tells their wife they've been cheating on them with hookers?

1617
02:00:41,860 --> 02:00:44,280
But God told me to do that.

1618
02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:50,120
He spoke it into my life through the words of my mentor, and I trusted Him enough to

1619
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:51,120
do it.

1620
02:00:51,120 --> 02:00:59,000
And when you step out on faith and trust something bigger than yourself, and you find out that,

1621
02:00:59,000 --> 02:01:00,720
wow, that's real.

1622
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:02,880
That just happened.

1623
02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:07,200
It doesn't turn you off to God.

1624
02:01:07,200 --> 02:01:08,600
It does just the opposite.

1625
02:01:08,600 --> 02:01:10,360
It fires you up.

1626
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:11,480
It excites you.

1627
02:01:11,480 --> 02:01:12,520
It motivates you.

1628
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:18,480
It inspires you to know that the God I serve is so real that I can have a communication

1629
02:01:18,480 --> 02:01:19,480
with Him.

1630
02:01:19,480 --> 02:01:20,480
And it's not just me praying to Him.

1631
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:27,640
He actually communicates back through my own thought and through my own conversations with

1632
02:01:27,640 --> 02:01:30,880
comparing love and fear, love and fear.

1633
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:33,740
And when I'm in a fearful state, it's cool.

1634
02:01:33,740 --> 02:01:35,840
The question is, what am I learning?

1635
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:40,360
And as long as I'm learning in that fearful state and I'm not becoming a victim in that

1636
02:01:40,360 --> 02:01:44,000
fearful state, I'm going to have success.

1637
02:01:44,000 --> 02:01:46,500
Absolutely.

1638
02:01:46,500 --> 02:01:50,600
We have hit two hours, but we've got one more conversation to have.

1639
02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:56,880
People listening are like, well, okay, well, at least Rick's life from growing after losing

1640
02:01:56,880 --> 02:02:03,320
his son remained stable and happy until forever after.

1641
02:02:03,320 --> 02:02:09,560
However, talk to me about the accident that once again threw an incredible wrench into

1642
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:13,320
everything for you, physically, mentally, spiritually.

1643
02:02:13,320 --> 02:02:19,640
Yeah, it just completely threw me back into a whole new mindset of trying to figure out

1644
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:21,240
how to dig myself out of a hole.

1645
02:02:21,240 --> 02:02:31,080
But five months after I retired to Nashville, I came back from the restroom at one in the

1646
02:02:31,080 --> 02:02:34,040
morning and had a sinkable.

1647
02:02:34,040 --> 02:02:45,120
And from what I'm told now is my head hit my bed, the side of my bed and whiplashed

1648
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:50,480
my neck back and broke C4 and five.

1649
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:57,980
So I had a broken neck at C4 and five, was unconscious, woke up.

1650
02:02:57,980 --> 02:02:59,200
My wife was over me.

1651
02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:08,000
She had heard me fall and she ended up asking me if I was okay, but I'm sitting down face

1652
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:11,320
down, but I can't move.

1653
02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:18,880
So she grabs my head and she kind of helps her and gets me on my backside.

1654
02:03:18,880 --> 02:03:26,360
As soon as I got on my back, I started to go to corticot and all of my extremities started

1655
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:32,000
to come in and I knew that that was not a good sign.

1656
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:33,720
And I told her, I said, I think I broke my neck.

1657
02:03:33,720 --> 02:03:35,840
I can't feel anything.

1658
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:37,800
And she says, no, you didn't.

1659
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:42,480
And so she takes my arms down to my side and sure enough, they came back up again.

1660
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:44,400
And there was a running joke in my house.

1661
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:46,280
You never call 911 in our house.

1662
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:48,800
Don't you ever call 911.

1663
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:51,920
You better be dying if you're going to call 911.

1664
02:03:51,920 --> 02:03:53,920
It sucks being a firefighters family.

1665
02:03:53,920 --> 02:03:54,920
It does.

1666
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:55,920
It really does.

1667
02:03:55,920 --> 02:03:58,440
Well, she said, I think I'm going to have to call 911.

1668
02:03:58,440 --> 02:03:59,440
I said, yeah, this is the time.

1669
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:00,440
This is when you got to do it.

1670
02:04:00,440 --> 02:04:02,040
This is the time to do it.

1671
02:04:02,040 --> 02:04:06,360
So long story short, I ended up breaking C4, C5.

1672
02:04:06,360 --> 02:04:12,320
I was paralyzed from the chest down, spent two and a half months in the hospital learning

1673
02:04:12,320 --> 02:04:22,640
how to feed myself, wipe myself, shower myself, everything for nearly the first two, I'd say

1674
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:25,680
the first month and a half, I couldn't do any of that.

1675
02:04:25,680 --> 02:04:30,840
I was completely dependent on everyone.

1676
02:04:30,840 --> 02:04:37,600
And when I first got in there, my therapist came to me and asked me, what do you want

1677
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:39,640
to accomplish while you're here?

1678
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:41,920
And I told her, I want to walk out of there.

1679
02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:44,280
I want to walk out of this hospital.

1680
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:49,240
And she says, well, then we got some work to do.

1681
02:04:49,240 --> 02:04:51,080
And so we just went to work.

1682
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:58,760
And I was doing extra therapy on weekends, but even with all the therapy, that's not

1683
02:04:58,760 --> 02:05:00,840
what got me through it.

1684
02:05:00,840 --> 02:05:06,720
What got me through this, James, and you're going to understand this, is my fire family.

1685
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:11,480
I'm 2000 and some odd miles away from Southern California.

1686
02:05:11,480 --> 02:05:17,040
And I just got my family here.

1687
02:05:17,040 --> 02:05:18,040
Just bought this house.

1688
02:05:18,040 --> 02:05:24,360
I was just getting the bottom half of my house turned into an Airbnb.

1689
02:05:24,360 --> 02:05:31,160
And I had guys flying out here from California, helping my wife with all the stuff that needed

1690
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:36,160
to go on at the house and getting it ready and prepped.

1691
02:05:36,160 --> 02:05:41,000
And they were at my bedside the entire time I was in the hospital.

1692
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:46,460
I had somebody at my bedside every single day I was in the hospital.

1693
02:05:46,460 --> 02:05:50,000
Sometimes I had two or three, sometimes I had five or seven.

1694
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:56,920
And they were just, I had this revolving door of seeing my buddies showing up at the hospital.

1695
02:05:56,920 --> 02:06:01,880
And then they were there for me to walk out of the hospital.

1696
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:05,600
And then when I got home, I had people staying with me at the house to make sure I was getting

1697
02:06:05,600 --> 02:06:06,920
to the doctor's appointment.

1698
02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:17,160
So the brotherly love, the love of that family, the love of these people who went out of their

1699
02:06:17,160 --> 02:06:28,560
way, bought plane tickets to come out here and support my wife and I and my family.

1700
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:33,340
If that's not an act of God, I don't know what is.

1701
02:06:33,340 --> 02:06:37,980
And some of these people you wouldn't say are very godly people, but they sure showed

1702
02:06:37,980 --> 02:06:42,760
a lot of godly love to my family and to me.

1703
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:50,720
In fact, one of the nurses that I had said to me, I don't know who you are, Rick, but

1704
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:52,680
you are obviously a loved man.

1705
02:06:52,680 --> 02:06:56,080
And I said, well, why do you say that?

1706
02:06:56,080 --> 02:07:03,640
She says, I have people that come in here in your condition who have family that live

1707
02:07:03,640 --> 02:07:06,700
30 miles away.

1708
02:07:06,700 --> 02:07:15,060
And I never see their own family here, but you got people that are flying in from California.

1709
02:07:15,060 --> 02:07:20,140
And I've never seen so many people visit a person while they're in the hospital.

1710
02:07:20,140 --> 02:07:23,160
And your people are coming 2000 miles away.

1711
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:26,160
She said, you must be a very loved man.

1712
02:07:26,160 --> 02:07:31,520
And I said, yeah, I guess you're right.

1713
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:33,160
I guess you're right.

1714
02:07:33,160 --> 02:07:34,160
They love me.

1715
02:07:34,160 --> 02:07:37,480
I said, but it doesn't surprise me.

1716
02:07:37,480 --> 02:07:44,240
I said, because the family I come from in the fire service is very loving.

1717
02:07:44,240 --> 02:07:47,600
When our family suffers, everybody comes together.

1718
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:55,400
And that's pretty much every fire family I know, they will move heaven and hell to help

1719
02:07:55,400 --> 02:07:57,320
a brother in need.

1720
02:07:57,320 --> 02:08:06,960
And they do it with such precision and such professionalism that it takes people by surprise

1721
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:09,200
when they see it firsthand.

1722
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:16,000
So when this nurse saw what Anaheim Fire was doing on my behalf, she had nothing but, I

1723
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:21,080
don't know who you are, but you must be very loved because I don't see this from family

1724
02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:25,640
members who live just in the neighborhood.

1725
02:08:25,640 --> 02:08:29,120
But that caused me to go into a very deep depression now, because now at the end of

1726
02:08:29,120 --> 02:08:31,640
my 50s, I'm sitting back now, I've got a broken neck.

1727
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:35,320
I can't feel anything from the chest down.

1728
02:08:35,320 --> 02:08:38,400
My hands don't work.

1729
02:08:38,400 --> 02:08:42,520
And from a guy who was a truck captain, a contractor who swung a hammer most of his

1730
02:08:42,520 --> 02:08:51,240
life and made a living with his hands to not be able to do that, it not only did a mind

1731
02:08:51,240 --> 02:08:57,560
game on my physical stature, but it brought me all the way back to when Michael was murdered.

1732
02:08:57,560 --> 02:09:04,160
And I thought to myself, man, my 50s have sucked.

1733
02:09:04,160 --> 02:09:07,280
I start my 50s with burying my son.

1734
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:13,480
I end my 50s with breaking my neck and not being able to walk.

1735
02:09:13,480 --> 02:09:21,120
And there was a side of me that just said, man, maybe everybody in religion was right.

1736
02:09:21,120 --> 02:09:25,220
Maybe I'm just suffering because I'm being punished.

1737
02:09:25,220 --> 02:09:29,520
And I knew that couldn't be true because I'd had way too many experiences that proved that

1738
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:30,520
otherwise.

1739
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:33,440
But nonetheless, those were the things that I was fighting against.

1740
02:09:33,440 --> 02:09:37,840
And so I found myself becoming a victim again.

1741
02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:41,720
But this time I became a victim and I couldn't find my way out.

1742
02:09:41,720 --> 02:09:46,200
So it's been May 1st to be three years.

1743
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:54,120
And the last two years have been a living nightmare of me trying to crawl out of this

1744
02:09:54,120 --> 02:10:00,000
devastating mindset that I'm a victim of my circumstances.

1745
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:01,160
I'm useless.

1746
02:10:01,160 --> 02:10:02,920
I'm worthless.

1747
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:09,560
I have no value to offer anymore because I'm not the man I used to be.

1748
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:15,840
And I ended up getting affiliated with a group here in Nashville.

1749
02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:18,960
It's a real estate investment group.

1750
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:23,560
And I was getting plugged in with them because I wanted to get back into real estate.

1751
02:10:23,560 --> 02:10:25,360
I wanted to get back into building stuff.

1752
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:29,000
I wanted to get back into investing in properties and try to get my money.

1753
02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:38,120
But I could not get my head out of my own victim mentality until I went to this group

1754
02:10:38,120 --> 02:10:43,040
of folks and they had a real big segment on mindset.

1755
02:10:43,040 --> 02:10:45,440
And there was a guy that spoke.

1756
02:10:45,440 --> 02:10:46,720
His name was Anthony Trucks.

1757
02:10:46,720 --> 02:10:50,120
He was a former NFL football player.

1758
02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:55,120
And he talked about his life and his journey and what he struggled with.

1759
02:10:55,120 --> 02:10:58,440
And he wrote a book called Make Shift Happen.

1760
02:10:58,440 --> 02:11:04,480
And it's all about taking whatever has happened to you and shift it.

1761
02:11:04,480 --> 02:11:14,120
Shift it to the place that you become the instrument of success and not be the victim

1762
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:16,560
of your circumstance.

1763
02:11:16,560 --> 02:11:18,040
And he was speaking to me.

1764
02:11:18,040 --> 02:11:19,880
And so I started that journey back.

1765
02:11:19,880 --> 02:11:23,240
And it took me two years to crawl out of it.

1766
02:11:23,240 --> 02:11:29,560
And that's probably a little more than two years, but in the last six months, it was

1767
02:11:29,560 --> 02:11:37,320
like I finally penetrated through that veil and got back to where I was after Mike died,

1768
02:11:37,320 --> 02:11:41,320
got back to where I was after my addiction, got back to where I was as I was trying to

1769
02:11:41,320 --> 02:11:42,320
become a fireman.

1770
02:11:42,320 --> 02:11:46,080
I was starting to use those same tools.

1771
02:11:46,080 --> 02:11:54,720
But it helped me build on what I had already been able to develop.

1772
02:11:54,720 --> 02:12:00,720
And this one, I felt as if this was it.

1773
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:04,720
Either I was going to get out of this or I was ever going to forever be a victim and

1774
02:12:04,720 --> 02:12:12,800
I would just be off into the lala land somewhere, never to come back and be my normal self again.

1775
02:12:12,800 --> 02:12:18,400
And I just couldn't see going through everything that we've been through to have that be my

1776
02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:20,080
end of the story.

1777
02:12:20,080 --> 02:12:22,560
And so here I am.

1778
02:12:22,560 --> 02:12:26,600
I'm on that journey, overcoming that mindset once again for the third time.

1779
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:32,680
And this time, knowing that it's a lot easier this time than it was the first time and the

1780
02:12:32,680 --> 02:12:36,020
second time and the third time.

1781
02:12:36,020 --> 02:12:38,560
But the injury was different.

1782
02:12:38,560 --> 02:12:41,360
Before I had my physical abilities.

1783
02:12:41,360 --> 02:12:47,960
But when you have all your physical abilities taken away and you are at the mercy of everyone,

1784
02:12:47,960 --> 02:12:51,920
that's a different mind to find yourself in.

1785
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:55,480
And that's where the battle for me truly took place.

1786
02:12:55,480 --> 02:13:00,000
And when I look at all my brothers and sisters in the fire service, we all go through these

1787
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:01,000
battles.

1788
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:08,440
We all go through these crucibles in our life that push and pressure and cause us to revert

1789
02:13:08,440 --> 02:13:10,000
back.

1790
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:18,680
And hence we got PTSD, we got PTSD, we've got all these mental health issues as a result

1791
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:23,040
of the traumas that we're facing, not only in our own lives, but in the lives of those

1792
02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:26,060
we are called to serve.

1793
02:13:26,060 --> 02:13:32,480
And that when you start to develop the mindset of regardless of what happens, you will not

1794
02:13:32,480 --> 02:13:36,880
be a victim, but you will be victorious.

1795
02:13:36,880 --> 02:13:38,680
Then the game changes.

1796
02:13:38,680 --> 02:13:42,240
Then the shift happens.

1797
02:13:42,240 --> 02:13:47,360
And so I just followed kind of what Anthony Trucks was saying and make shift happen.

1798
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:52,400
And so I've been trying to make shift happen for the last two and a half years.

1799
02:13:52,400 --> 02:13:54,640
And now I can walk, I can take care of myself.

1800
02:13:54,640 --> 02:13:57,040
I'm independent.

1801
02:13:57,040 --> 02:13:59,320
I got my license, I can drive.

1802
02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:01,660
I can even tinker around with my hands.

1803
02:14:01,660 --> 02:14:05,920
My hands are coming back, but they're very slow to move, but they're coming back.

1804
02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:11,200
I can feel myself coming back and I'm excited to come back.

1805
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:17,040
And I know that there's a lot more to do out there in my story.

1806
02:14:17,040 --> 02:14:20,560
And I'm just plugging away and just trying to be useful in any way I can from here on

1807
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:26,880
out telling my story, using my past, whatever it is, as an instrument to try to give hope

1808
02:14:26,880 --> 02:14:35,080
and inspiration to those around me that no matter how bleak it is, there's hope.

1809
02:14:35,080 --> 02:14:36,080
There's hope.

1810
02:14:36,080 --> 02:14:37,320
Hope's powerful, man.

1811
02:14:37,320 --> 02:14:39,720
It's a powerful, powerful feeling.

1812
02:14:39,720 --> 02:14:41,440
It's a powerful emotion.

1813
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:45,600
So there you go.

1814
02:14:45,600 --> 02:14:46,600
Thank you.

1815
02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:47,600
I mean, such a powerful story.

1816
02:14:47,600 --> 02:14:53,160
I just want to pull one thing out of what you said because it's something that I've learned

1817
02:14:53,160 --> 02:14:56,480
over seven years of these conversations now, but it was very powerful.

1818
02:14:56,480 --> 02:15:02,040
I mean, you had all these tools in your toolbox already, but with this loss of physicality

1819
02:15:02,040 --> 02:15:06,840
and it can be a complete paralysis that you had, or it can literally be a back injury

1820
02:15:06,840 --> 02:15:14,360
or being fired or promoted even, but this loss of identity that a lot of people struggle

1821
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:20,760
with, especially when they retire, but this creation of this feeling of burdensome, and

1822
02:15:20,760 --> 02:15:28,000
I think this is really under discussed element of the suicide conversation, is of course

1823
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:32,720
there's that wanting suffering to end and that is obvious.

1824
02:15:32,720 --> 02:15:38,600
People are just going through hell in whatever shape or form and they want it to cease, but

1825
02:15:38,600 --> 02:15:44,520
the brain being miswired by trauma, whether it's physical trauma, loss of a child, whatever

1826
02:15:44,520 --> 02:15:51,080
it is, being miswired to the point where it actually convinces the individual that they

1827
02:15:51,080 --> 02:15:53,160
are a burden to their family.

1828
02:15:53,160 --> 02:15:57,080
And it could be, again, loss of physicality, like you talked about, is a really, really

1829
02:15:57,080 --> 02:15:58,080
dangerous place.

1830
02:15:58,080 --> 02:16:02,560
And I think those, we talk about, oh, if you're struggling, just give me a call, the whole

1831
02:16:02,560 --> 02:16:04,300
suicide conversation.

1832
02:16:04,300 --> 02:16:09,800
To me, if you are having conversations in your own mind that you are a burden to the

1833
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:16,400
very people that love you, that is a huge red flag for you to pick up phone and start

1834
02:16:16,400 --> 02:16:19,000
finding the people that you want to be able to talk to.

1835
02:16:19,000 --> 02:16:25,680
Because once the brain has convinced an individual they are a burden, that is what I believe

1836
02:16:25,680 --> 02:16:27,760
is behind a lot of the suicides.

1837
02:16:27,760 --> 02:16:31,280
People are like, oh, selfish, so cowardly, how could they?

1838
02:16:31,280 --> 02:16:36,880
When you believe that you're the problem, in that mindset, I argue it's a selfless,

1839
02:16:36,880 --> 02:16:38,400
courageous act.

1840
02:16:38,400 --> 02:16:43,360
It's wrong to a healthy brain, 100%, but to that individual, it's probably terrifying,

1841
02:16:43,360 --> 02:16:47,080
but they're doing it because they think their family is suffering because of them.

1842
02:16:47,080 --> 02:16:48,720
So I just kind of want to pull that out.

1843
02:16:48,720 --> 02:16:55,160
That burdensome that you were exhibiting is the very kind of mindset shift I think a lot

1844
02:16:55,160 --> 02:16:58,800
of our first responders suffer with when they're in crisis.

1845
02:16:58,800 --> 02:16:59,800
Right.

1846
02:16:59,800 --> 02:17:02,720
I agree 100%.

1847
02:17:02,720 --> 02:17:07,640
Although I didn't feel, I mean, I felt like I was a burden, but I didn't feel like I was

1848
02:17:07,640 --> 02:17:14,180
a burden to the level that my wife is going to leave me or I was a burden to my family.

1849
02:17:14,180 --> 02:17:17,480
I was a burden from the standpoint of my frustration.

1850
02:17:17,480 --> 02:17:23,840
I was so frustrated that I couldn't do what I was doing, that I was frustrated with myself.

1851
02:17:23,840 --> 02:17:30,600
And I put so much burden on myself that it affected my wife in a negative way.

1852
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:35,760
But I never felt like that's it, I'm checking out.

1853
02:17:35,760 --> 02:17:48,120
However, when I was trying to overcome my sexual addiction, I was very easily persuaded

1854
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:50,080
with that kind of talk.

1855
02:17:50,080 --> 02:17:53,840
I would just be much easier if my wife didn't have to deal with me right now.

1856
02:17:53,840 --> 02:17:56,520
I've screwed up my marriage so bad.

1857
02:17:56,520 --> 02:18:00,200
My kids are, I mean, how could I do this to them?

1858
02:18:00,200 --> 02:18:04,600
And I just didn't have the courage to do it.

1859
02:18:04,600 --> 02:18:10,360
So what I was hoping for is that as I would drive up the mountain to go home or I was

1860
02:18:10,360 --> 02:18:16,040
in a snow storm or something, maybe I could just have a flat tire, my tire come off, I

1861
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:20,520
could slide off the road and I could die a tragic death in honor and just have it be

1862
02:18:20,520 --> 02:18:21,520
done.

1863
02:18:21,520 --> 02:18:26,000
That way they would never say, oh yeah, he just killed himself.

1864
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:29,720
Those things did cross my mind at that time.

1865
02:18:29,720 --> 02:18:39,960
But after going through what I went through with my neck, I was more angry at me that

1866
02:18:39,960 --> 02:18:42,360
I should have done something different.

1867
02:18:42,360 --> 02:18:47,240
Like when I was in the bathroom and I started feeling like I was getting, my sinkable was

1868
02:18:47,240 --> 02:18:50,120
coming on, I should have called for my wife's assistance.

1869
02:18:50,120 --> 02:18:51,120
She could have helped me.

1870
02:18:51,120 --> 02:18:57,680
She's a nurse for God's sake, but no, I had to do it on my own and here's my consequence.

1871
02:18:57,680 --> 02:19:05,660
So the burden aspect is a definite element, 100% for those who are going down that road

1872
02:19:05,660 --> 02:19:06,840
of suicide.

1873
02:19:06,840 --> 02:19:15,000
I was just very fortunate that I didn't get to that point in this injury, which to me,

1874
02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:17,520
if I had gotten to there, James, I think you're right.

1875
02:19:17,520 --> 02:19:19,480
That would have been the easiest way out.

1876
02:19:19,480 --> 02:19:22,000
That would have been the easiest way out.

1877
02:19:22,000 --> 02:19:27,920
But when you got the love of all those brothers and sisters showing up to your freaking room

1878
02:19:27,920 --> 02:19:33,440
while you're in the hospital, cheering you on, pulling for you, doing fundraisers, raising

1879
02:19:33,440 --> 02:19:41,440
money, doing all the things that firefighters do for their own and for those that are just

1880
02:19:41,440 --> 02:19:45,120
citizens, we do it for them too.

1881
02:19:45,120 --> 02:19:52,840
That kind of camaraderie, that kind of fellowship is enough to pull anybody out of the dark

1882
02:19:52,840 --> 02:19:57,520
corners of the crucible of life.

1883
02:19:57,520 --> 02:19:58,520
And I thank them every day.

1884
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:03,800
I mean, I tell you, I just cannot thank my brothers and sisters enough for what they

1885
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:05,640
did for me.

1886
02:20:05,640 --> 02:20:11,440
And to this day, I don't even know that they know just how much they did for me.

1887
02:20:11,440 --> 02:20:17,640
I mean, I've told everybody, I've thanked them, but it's those dark times that when

1888
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:23,280
the brotherhood comes together and there's nothing but love.

1889
02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:27,760
Like I said, man, when you're demonstrating love at that level, you are God, you are being

1890
02:20:27,760 --> 02:20:28,760
loved.

1891
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:30,680
And those guys were God for me.

1892
02:20:30,680 --> 02:20:32,040
I can tell you that.

1893
02:20:32,040 --> 02:20:34,760
So was my family, my wife, my kids.

1894
02:20:34,760 --> 02:20:37,680
They were here as much as they could be.

1895
02:20:37,680 --> 02:20:39,080
My wife was there every day.

1896
02:20:39,080 --> 02:20:40,760
She slept in the hospital with me.

1897
02:20:40,760 --> 02:20:44,600
I mean, she was my advocate in the hospital.

1898
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:51,640
And when you've got that kind of support, you're a very blessed man.

1899
02:20:51,640 --> 02:20:56,080
And unfortunately, not everybody has that kind of support.

1900
02:20:56,080 --> 02:21:03,000
And maybe that's where we can change and turn the corner is finding those folks just by

1901
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:07,520
looking at where they are, knowing that they're probably going to be feeling some stuff and

1902
02:21:07,520 --> 02:21:13,720
just be a voice and an instrument of compassion and love.

1903
02:21:13,720 --> 02:21:14,720
I couldn't agree more.

1904
02:21:14,720 --> 02:21:18,080
And that is the perfect place for us to round up this conversation.

1905
02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:23,240
So before I let you go, I'm sure there's people listening that would love to reach out to

1906
02:21:23,240 --> 02:21:27,880
you, where are the best places online, social media, et cetera, for anyone that kind of

1907
02:21:27,880 --> 02:21:29,840
contact you, if at all.

1908
02:21:29,840 --> 02:21:35,120
Well, I mean, I don't have anything other than my private stuff, but I mean, I'm on

1909
02:21:35,120 --> 02:21:37,720
Facebook, I'm on Instagram.

1910
02:21:37,720 --> 02:21:46,240
My email address is Ricky C, R-I-C-K-Y-C, AFD as in Anaheim Fire Department at yahoo.com.

1911
02:21:46,240 --> 02:21:49,360
Ricky C, AFD at yahoo.com.

1912
02:21:49,360 --> 02:21:50,360
Send me an email.

1913
02:21:50,360 --> 02:22:01,240
And man, I'd love to chat with anybody if anybody out there is struggling with addiction.

1914
02:22:01,240 --> 02:22:11,040
I got a pretty sympathetic ear or anything for that matter.

1915
02:22:11,040 --> 02:22:15,840
We have gone to some pretty deep and powerful places.

1916
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:19,120
But as I've pointed out many, many times now, two things.

1917
02:22:19,120 --> 02:22:22,520
One, my admiration for your courageous vulnerability.

1918
02:22:22,520 --> 02:22:24,960
I mean, these are the voices that we need now.

1919
02:22:24,960 --> 02:22:30,240
We're debunking this, you know, boys don't cry, rub some dirt, and seeing the reality

1920
02:22:30,240 --> 02:22:36,920
of what it's like not only just to be a man or be a woman, but to be a human being.

1921
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:41,680
But also I understand as well that when we revisit some of these stories, that it also

1922
02:22:41,680 --> 02:22:43,560
pulls at the scab a little bit.

1923
02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:50,360
So I also just want to let you know how grateful I am that you shared your story today.

1924
02:22:50,360 --> 02:22:54,420
So I want to thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and coming on the

1925
02:22:54,420 --> 02:22:56,280
Behind the Shield podcast today.

1926
02:22:56,280 --> 02:22:58,240
I appreciate that so much, James.

1927
02:22:58,240 --> 02:23:01,120
And I appreciate what you're doing out there.

1928
02:23:01,120 --> 02:23:07,640
You got a love for the brotherhood and that love for the brotherhood is the purpose for

1929
02:23:07,640 --> 02:23:10,200
why you do what you do.

1930
02:23:10,200 --> 02:23:14,760
And you become an instrument of God in doing so because of that love.

1931
02:23:14,760 --> 02:23:16,620
So I commend you.

1932
02:23:16,620 --> 02:23:18,240
And I say keep it up, brother.

1933
02:23:18,240 --> 02:23:20,520
You're doing a great job and you're helping a lot of folk.

1934
02:23:20,520 --> 02:23:43,880
Thanks for having me.