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This episode is sponsored by Bubs Naturals, yet another company that I track down to bring

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on as a sponsor because I myself love their products.

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They are offering you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, a 20% discount.

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But before we get to that, I do want to highlight a few of the products that I use myself.

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Firstly, collagen.

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I am about to turn 50 and so my hair, my skin, my nails, not really a big concern when I

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was younger, definitely a lot more of a concern now.

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However, where I've really seen the impact is joint health and gut health and I've been

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blown away that when I'm consistent using collagen, Bubbs collagen in this case, I see

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a massive improvement in both.

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Another area I drink coffee, love coffee and in the morning I use the Halo Creamer.

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Now originally I used the MCT Oil Powder but now they have the Halo Creamer which has also

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got grass-fed butter in it, a lot more creamy if you're not trying to go for the vegan option

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that they have as well.

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Now it's important to mention as well the altruistic element of Bubbs Naturals.

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The origin story involves Glenn, Bubb, Doherty, one of the two Navy SEALs killed in Benghazi

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and a good friend of the founders, Sean and TJ.

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So 10% of every single sale goes towards the Glenn Doherty Foundation.

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Now as I mentioned before, they are offering you, the audience, 20% off your purchase if

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you use the code SHIELD.

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That's SHIELD at bubbsnaturals.com.

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And finally if you want to hear more about their products and Glenn's powerful story,

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listen to episode 558 with co-founder Sean Lake.

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This episode is sponsored by a company I've used for well over a decade and that is 511.

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I wore their uniforms back in Anaheim, California and have used their products ever since.

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From their incredibly strong yet light footwear to their cut uniforms for both male and female

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responders, I found them hands down the best workwear in all the departments that I've

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worked for.

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Outside of the fire service, I use their luggage for everything and I travel a lot and they

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are also now sponsoring the 7X team as we embark around the world on the Human Performance

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project.

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We have Murph coming up in May and again I bought their plate carrier.

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I ended up buying real ballistic plates rather than the fake weight plates and that has been

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my ride or die through Murph the last few years as well.

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One area I want to talk about that I haven't in previous sponsorship spots is their brick

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and mortar element.

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They were predominantly an online company up till more recently but now they are approaching

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100 stores all over the US.

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My local store is here in Gainesville, Florida and I've been multiple times and the discounts

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you see online are applied also in the stores.

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So as I mentioned, 511 is offering you 15% off every purchase that you make but I do

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want to say more often than not they have an even deeper discount especially around

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holiday times.

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But if you use the code SHIELD15 you will get 15% off your order or in the stores every

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time you make a purchase.

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And if you want to hear more about 511, who they stand for and who works with them, listen

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to episode 580 of Behind the Shield podcast with 511 regional director Will Ayers.

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast as always.

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My name is James Gearing and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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Royal Marine veteran, author and cancer survivor Rian Eilert.

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Now in this conversation we discuss a host of topics from Rian's early life, the scared

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straight program he went to in Mexico as a young man, his journey into the Royal Marines,

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some of his deployments overseas, the day he got his brain tumor diagnosis, his recovery

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journey and so much more.

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Now before we get to this incredible conversation as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback and

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leave a rating.

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Every single 5 star rating truly does elevate this podcast therefore making it easier for

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others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 900 episodes now.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share these incredible men and women stories so

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I can get them to every single person on planet earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Rian Eilert.

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Enjoy.

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Well Rian, I want to start by saying thank you so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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So where on planet earth are we finding you your evening my afternoon?

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So I'm in Portsmouth.

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Brilliant.

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So I would love to start at the very beginning then.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings?

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So I was born in a hospital called St. Peter's in Chertsey near Heathrow Airport and I grew

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up in Guildford.

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I've got a younger sister who's a police officer and I had a very good upbringing with my mum

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and dad.

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I was also very close to my grandparents.

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Your grandparents?

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Well tell me about them.

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What were their backgrounds?

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So obviously they were both children in World War II, grew up in what I'd argue is the last

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of the best generations that had it hard but made the best of bad situations.

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All of my family are from London.

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What do they talk about?

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Because my parents were kids in World War II as well.

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They were evacuated when they were bombing all the cities and they were very, very small

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like toddlers basically.

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What did your grandparents talk about when they reminisce on the rebuilding after World

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War II?

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Well it seems to be very different, the American experience versus the British experience because

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obviously no one really came to the mainland of the US and bombed them but the UK was decimated

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financially and on infrastructure as well.

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So here there was a lot of affluence and we call them the boomers, the generation after

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the World War II generation.

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And there's some incredible human beings but the pendulum swung so far the other way I

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think from the horrors that the World War II generation saw and the umbrella they put

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around their children.

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So you could argue there's almost a sense of entitlement because they didn't feel that

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suffering they gained from the rebuilding of the US and the affluence and that kind

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of thing.

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But the criticism is just an observation because that generation didn't fight in those wars

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and a lot of them didn't fight at all.

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Some of them were in Korea but they were fortunate enough not to see war and to grow up around

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the affluence of rebuilding.

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So what about in the UK lens though, what did your grandparents witness and experience

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when they were growing up post-war in the UK?

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So similar to you obviously they was evacuated but they said that obviously at the time it

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just brought the UK together because everyone was in the same boat and everyone pulled together

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to rebuild this great nation.

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And then what about financially, when they went back were they experiencing any sort

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of poverty or anything because I mean so many houses were destroyed and jobs and all those

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kind of things.

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You know there was a lot of struggles even in the the Falklands war era, we were still

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struggling financially in our country.

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Yeah so obviously they touched on how hard such things as what we take for granted food

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was to come by.

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Obviously money back then was pretty much non-existent but they made it work in harsh

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times and that's why I always refer to them as being the last of the best generation that

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saw the horrors of World War II and all come together and we're still this great nation

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today.

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It's a shame though I feel that as we lose the proximity to a horror like that and we

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shouldn't have to have proximity to something horrendous like World War II or 9-11 or some

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of these other horrendous incidents but the further we get the quicker people forget you

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know and we lose that community and if you turn on the TV now there's a lot of division

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you know from I would argue really from kind of like Covid times onwards you know.

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So they always say oh it takes a war to bring people together and I wish it wouldn't.

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I wish it could take a leader to bring people together rather than a tragedy.

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Yeah I fully agree.

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I'm just British for and through and can't admit that we're still not the greatest nation

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on the planet.

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Well they have the same thing here.

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You see the flag behind me I mean obviously I'm a proud Brit you know living in the US

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now and a proud American too.

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I mean you can be both but yeah if you just walk around saying you're the greatest and

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don't put the work in then you look around one day and you're not you know but if you

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have humility and are proud of your country but also ask other countries how they do things

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really well then you will rise up and everyone grows from it.

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So what about careers what were your parents doing when you were young?

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So my mum was a hairdresser and my dad worked for a window fitting firm.

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Did you have any military in the family at all?

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No no I didn't.

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Okay and just side tangent what was it that sent your sister into law enforcement?

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I think and I'd like to hope a little bit of me because she was talking about joining

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the military but I kind of said because she was that bit younger than me you're probably

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not going to get the experiences I had because the regiment and the units I was a part of.

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Women's lacking in the military and that now so you're probably not going to get the good

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trips so I was like if you're going to do anything join the police and then work your

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way up to get into the counter-terrorism special firearms officers.

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Now because I saw in one of the things I read about you that you work with that group is

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that through her then?

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No and I know I was doing that in my last job before I got medically discharged from

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the military.

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Okay and then what about her perspective female member of law enforcement in the UK?

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I'm seeing you know obviously a lot happening here it seems to dribble over into the UK

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as well we just had a big issue with our armed officers in the UK being kind of demonized

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for doing their job and I've had several of those officers on the show I'm getting two

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of them on together to talk about that.

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What is her perspective of policing in the UK at the moment and then how what does she

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think that we can do to kind of again we're talking about pendulums to bring it back to

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the middle again?

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Yeah so I think from what I hear is that obviously there's a lot of paperwork that goes to policing

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now and a lot of red tape and a lot of scrutiny which makes it hard to do just general good

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policing and I think she's quite lucky because she's part of Surrey police not the Met obviously

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certain areas of London are a lot more violent and riddled with crime than other areas that

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are on the outskirts of London.

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Yeah I had some guys from a group of guys and girls from a group called SurfWell and

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they take police officers out surfing it's kind of a mental health therapy and I was

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asking them and they're definitely more rural police officers because they didn't have the

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stories that some of my London police officers did.

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Yeah.

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Alright well then let's get back to you as you were in school age what were you playing

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as far as sports and athletics?

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I liked football I was always about football that was it.

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I was an half decent runner but I put all my effort in the playing football.

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Did you compete at running as well?

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I did a couple of cross-country runs at school but I didn't compete in anything major.

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The reason I ask it's always interesting when people that go into military police fire in

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their younger life had played individual sports and they played team sports so when you look

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back now what was it about even if it was only for a short time the cross-country and

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then contrasting the team sport of football if any of those applied to your success in

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the Royal Marines later?

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Well I was always a team player so that was never in question and I think the cross-country

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running I generally enjoyed running which I think definitely gave me an advantage at

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certain times in my career with how much running you do do as you know yourself in the British

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military it's very heavy on running or running long distances with carrying weight.

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Now what about when you were at school career aspirations were you dreaming of the military

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or was there something else in your mind at that point?

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No I wanted to be a chef growing up I wanted to be a chef and yeah didn't end up being

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a chef.

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What inspired you to be a chef were there people or were there home cooked meals or

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restaurants that really kind of inspired you initially?

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I don't even know to be honest I did a bit of that food technology at school and I half

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enjoyed that and then I used to like some of them cooking programs you know like with

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like the proper professional chefs and I was like ah fancy a bit of that never happened

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and at 35 I'll probably still can't cook.

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I did home economics in my GCSEs because I was terrible at what would work CDT so HE

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was the other one but all the girls were in that so it was me my mate Steve and then all

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the girls so I actually got one of my best grades in that too so it's a good option if

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your shits would work I'll tell you that now.

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Alright well then when you graduated then were you still thinking about like pursuing

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culinary in community college or did something happen that shifted you into the military?

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So I started misbehaving as a teenager and I'm not sure whether you've seen it I'm sure

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a lot of people in America would have.

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There's been a documentary come out recently called The Programme on Netflix.

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I haven't seen that one actually no.

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So it's only been out about a week and a half and it's about behaviour modification

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facilities out in the US and there was a couple elsewhere that have been closed down but I

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actually went to one of them for a year in Mexico because I wasn't doing well at school

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I was getting into trouble so I've got a year there to think about my actions well

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it was actually 18 months but the facility I was in there was a big riot and it got

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raided and it was closed down within 24 hours so I was transported back to the San Diego

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border and then I was brought home, had to play catch up with GCSEs and I went to Brooklyn's

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College to do a public service course and it was there where I met my college lecturer

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who was a former Royal Marine commander and that's where we started looking at them avenues

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of joining the military.

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Coming back to the, I think they call them scared straight programmes is the term they

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use over here.

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They'll take kids into prisons and the prisons will all mess with them and scare the shit

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out of them basically.

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You hear of some programmes that are well organised and they see, like the fire programme

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for example, there's a fire programme for young offenders that trains them to become

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wildland firefighters and I've had people on the show that have done that.

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Talk to me about firstly how did you find yourself in Mexico because there must have

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been some sort of programmes in the UK and then secondly what was that actual experience

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like for a young Englishman or English boy all the way down in Mexico?

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So I'd been in quite a lot of trouble with the police and obviously my parents didn't

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really know what to do to help me or get me off of this track of causing devastation and

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I was the second British lad to go to one of these facilities.

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There was another lad from Birmingham and I believe my mum may have heard of it through

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his experience because he was out there when I got there and my mum spoke with the police

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and said look this is what we're looking at and we think it might help.

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So I was sent out there as a trial and I spent a year there but yeah it was horrific.

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It wasn't a nice place to be.

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You wasn't allowed to talk.

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You was allowed out for an hour a day.

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It was basically like being in prison but with a lot less human rights.

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Like you see programmes now where people playing pool and chilling with their friends on the

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landings and that, I would have taken that over.

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What that Mexican place was like because there was no human rights going on in that facility.

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Also being the only white English kid there obviously you've got to get a little bit more

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abused than everyone else.

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I'd heard on the podcast that you sent me that you were on, you talked about the programme

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was shut down by the FBI and the federalis so that's probably a sign that it wasn't doing

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what it was supposed to be doing.

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Yeah that's exactly what happened.

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That was the first time I'd ever had a gun pointed at me.

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Was when the federalis and the FBI stormed it.

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Well I'd imagine everyone else as well because I was one of the youngest there and the age

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range was between 14 and 18.

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And yeah I remember when it got stormed it was chaos, chaotic.

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Everyone just running riot everywhere and then just loads of big Mexicans coming in

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with assault rifles and FBI agents and it was like what is going on here.

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It was like something out of a film but being a teenager I probably didn't really take it

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in that much then because all I was thinking about was trying to get some decent food,

256
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not getting mistreated and well basically not being in this facility anymore.

257
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When you look back what were the elements of that experience even though overall it

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was horrific as you said.

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What were any elements that you gleaned that were positive and then talk to me about that

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dark side.

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When parents send their kids trusting that the facility is going to be molding them into

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strong kind young men, what was the reality of your experience?

263
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I think if I'm being honest positives to come out of it probably I've got knocked down so

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many pegs I wasn't as big and as hard as I thought I was.

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But it also taught me being there on your own I had no friends there, certainly not

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for the first seven months.

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And it kind of helped me probably stand on my own two feet and watch my own back because

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there was things going on in that place every day.

269
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I mean would I change it?

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No.

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It was horrific and I'm part of a Facebook group called the WASP Survivors because that

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was the brand of these facilities, the worldwide association of specialist schools I think

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it was.

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And there's a lot of people with complex PTSD that can't obviously get over what went on

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in these facilities.

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Where I'm quite thankful I went there because I definitely think it probably gave me a good

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kick up the ass and some decent mental resilience to then go forward and do as well as I did

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in the Royal Marines.

279
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Well let's talk about that.

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I mean you've got physical resilience, you've got the mental toughness especially when you're

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in a group of people where some of them are going to quit.

282
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You find yourself in this school, you have this teacher who was a former Royal Marine.

283
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Walk me through that from that conversation through to when you're actually enlisting.

284
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So because to join the Marines at the time I'd imagine it's probably still the same.

285
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You needed five GCSEs at sea and above and I had a couple but this college course if

286
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I passed it would give me what I needed to be able to join the military and the Royal

287
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Marines.

288
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So I started this college course, started rebelling a little bit because I just didn't

289
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like being in a classroom.

290
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I was never one for classrooms and my college lecturer he basically had just come out the

291
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Marines started telling me some stories and was like this might be an option for you get

292
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away see the world be a part of something.

293
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So I started looking into it and the college course was a year long so he started to train

294
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with me and help prepare me as best as he could for I had a potential Royal Marines

295
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course planned for at the end of it.

296
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So I basically started going through the application process whilst on this college course and

297
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I remember going home and telling my mum and dad that I'm going to join the Royal Marine

298
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commandos and they laughed at me and then I was 100% going to be a Royal Marine commander.

299
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Beautiful, it's amazing how many people the naysayers just fuel to their fire and I can

300
00:22:56,060 --> 00:22:57,060
relate to that 100%.

301
00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:00,820
Oh 100%, you won't do that, I am now going to.

302
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Hold my beer.

303
00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:04,540
Alright, well then what did that look through?

304
00:23:04,540 --> 00:23:08,420
Because I know obviously for people that don't know the British military as well you've obviously

305
00:23:08,420 --> 00:23:14,660
got SAS, SBS but then the lesser recognised element of Special Forces is the Royal Marines

306
00:23:14,660 --> 00:23:19,420
as well and obviously there are some other groups to add to that but it's not just entering

307
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another branch of the military, you guys are entering a much higher tier.

308
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:28,740
So walk me through what training looked like overall for those next few months.

309
00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:33,640
So you start with, obviously you do all your interview process and that at the careers

310
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office you have a medical, you have a pre-joining fitness test and then if you're successful

311
00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:43,700
with them you go on to a potential Royal Marines course which is five days down at the commando

312
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:50,020
training centre at Lintstone which is just five days of showing them what you've got

313
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to offer and obviously there's a lot of pass or fail criteria, physical assessments and

314
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some written tests and then on the last day you're told if you've been successful or not

315
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:10,620
and if you have been you then get a date to start training or they might say six months

316
00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:17,620
start training is six months or start next year but I think at the time the Royal Marines

317
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was quite undermanned, obviously war had broken out, the great war on terror as everyone calls

318
00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:29,780
it and I started training two months after my PRMC and yeah that was a shocker capture

319
00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:36,660
because it's 32 weeks long and it builds you up but obviously a lot of it is harsh, physical

320
00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:42,980
and mentally, lack of food, lack of sleep but it's relentless, it's constant, it's every

321
00:24:42,980 --> 00:24:48,300
day so you do get tired and worn down and it's just about digging deep into them reserves

322
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to get you through and then halfway through training after you've passed the set criteria

323
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tests at each benchmark you then start the interesting stuff like the soldiering and

324
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the commando stuff, the amphibious stuff, the cliff assaults and it generally becomes

325
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:08,420
more interesting and I thoroughly enjoyed that side of things.

326
00:25:08,420 --> 00:25:13,840
When you look back now physically and mentally what was it that allowed you to complete the

327
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,340
course when some of the people applying with you failed?

328
00:25:18,340 --> 00:25:23,540
I wasn't going home, I was getting that green beret and that was the end of the story.

329
00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:28,620
I got back troop twice so I didn't pass out of my original troop, I was a good runner

330
00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:33,740
but I couldn't climb ropes, I mean me at 18 years old I was built like a butcher's

331
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:36,740
toothpick so you and me both.

332
00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:42,660
I was never ever getting my scrawny carcass up them ropes but we got there in the end

333
00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:46,860
and then once I passed that phase and moved on to the next one I had to climb them ropes

334
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:50,180
with kit and a rifle and I was like, hold up a minute, I couldn't do it with nothing

335
00:25:50,180 --> 00:25:52,180
on, now you want me to do it with kit?

336
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:56,340
So that was another stumbling block and then we got there in the end and then yeah I finally

337
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passed out.

338
00:25:57,340 --> 00:26:03,860
I spent an extra two months in training so it took me 10 months instead of eight.

339
00:26:03,860 --> 00:26:11,740
I can totally relate, when I was I think I was 20 or 21 I could only do one pull up and

340
00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:17,740
I was an athlete, I just never pulled, I never climbed before and then fast forward getting

341
00:26:17,740 --> 00:26:25,700
into CrossFit but years later I could do rope climbs with my legs in an L, no leg rope climbs

342
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and it's amazing to watch because as you said you will get there but you can't climb a rope

343
00:26:31,860 --> 00:26:34,860
with no strength, I mean you have to build that strength up and you have to understand

344
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:40,020
obviously how to use your feet and everything else but it is a high level strength exercise

345
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:44,960
but the beautiful thing is when you see your scrawny ass, for me it was years later, look

346
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,620
back and go wow when I was 21 when I was supposed to be at my peak I couldn't do half the shit

347
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:55,580
I could do when I was 40 so it's kind of cool to see progression because I talk about this

348
00:26:55,580 --> 00:27:00,860
on the show quite a bit, if you go to the leisure centre and you use the body building

349
00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:06,020
machines there there's not real pride into just putting the pin down one more weight

350
00:27:06,020 --> 00:27:10,820
but when you nail something like a rope climb that's a pretty amazing achievement.

351
00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:17,500
It's something you don't do every day, like the ropes, I used to look up at them and think

352
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,500
really?

353
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:23,580
Yeah but it's functional, it's the thing, hanging from things, a lot of us now I say

354
00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:28,900
a lot of us myself, I can barely hang up from a bar for more than a minute or so but then

355
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:33,940
you think about the people that carry pots of water for miles in some of these poorer

356
00:27:33,940 --> 00:27:40,860
countries, I mean their endurance and strength just makes us laughable so I think it's good

357
00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:45,340
when you can go back to what we would have done a long time ago which was climbing and

358
00:27:45,340 --> 00:27:48,880
crawling and some of these other things that we just don't do.

359
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:57,500
So again going back to the podcast, when you graduated and you got your beret there's usually

360
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:01,940
a bit of a gap, am I right, before you actually deployed but yours was quite short, am I understanding

361
00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:02,940
that correctly?

362
00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:09,500
Yeah so you get to the, it's called King Squad week so you've passed your commando tests,

363
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:15,160
you've got your green beret and then you have a week where you're doing like leaving administration

364
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:21,660
for leaving Limpstone to join a commando unit and you get a choice, it's not guaranteed

365
00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:27,260
you'll get your choice but you can choose what units you'd like to go to and you do

366
00:28:27,260 --> 00:28:32,460
a lot of marching and ceremonial stuff ready for the pass out parade, for when all your

367
00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:38,060
family come down and watch you get presented with your coveted green beret which was a

368
00:28:38,060 --> 00:28:44,420
fantastic day and anyone who's ever witnessed a pass out will say what an amazing day it

369
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:50,660
is obviously off the back of an amazing achievement but 40 commando would just go into Afghanistan

370
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:57,780
as I was leaving training so we was told not to put 40 commando as our first choice because

371
00:28:57,780 --> 00:29:01,980
they were fully manned and they were going out the door but I put 40 commando anyway

372
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:08,540
because I always wanted to go to 40 commando and miraculously me and I think four other

373
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:16,460
lads from our troop got 40 commando so we had a long weekend and then we joined 40 commando

374
00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:21,460
on the Tuesday and then that was it we were straight into pre-deployment training and

375
00:29:21,460 --> 00:29:28,840
then we deployed five and a half weeks later and met the unit out in Afghanistan.

376
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,740
Before we go to your first Afghanistan deployment you are in the pass out parade, you get new

377
00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:38,140
green beret, your parents are there, the ones who told you you could never be a Royal Marine

378
00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:41,700
talk to me about that conversation.

379
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:42,700
Is what it is isn't it?

380
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:49,020
You can see it, it's happening, you're watching me get it so there you go.

381
00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:53,740
Was there an element of pride though?

382
00:29:53,740 --> 00:30:00,820
You go back two years you're in a scared straight facility in Mexico that gets shut down by

383
00:30:00,820 --> 00:30:07,580
the FBI and the federales and now fast forward two years you're wearing a green beret so

384
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:11,180
do you remember any conversations about the kind of metamorphosis that you've made as

385
00:30:11,180 --> 00:30:13,180
a young man?

386
00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:18,260
Not really but they were just obviously really relieved and proud that I'd achieved something

387
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:27,860
that at the time the slogan was 99.99% need not apply and I'd add the mental robustness

388
00:30:27,860 --> 00:30:33,020
and the physical attributes to finally get that coveted green beret and get to where

389
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:34,380
I wanted to be.

390
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:38,100
I'm sure they obviously had sleepless nights throughout my career wondering if they got

391
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:43,820
a knock on the door from the Padre and the welfare officer but it was obviously a lot

392
00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:48,180
better than the road I was going down where I might have got killed and end up in prison

393
00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:49,180
anyway.

394
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:56,340
When you talk about 99.9% need not apply I think it was Mark Omrard and maybe Ben Wadham

395
00:30:56,340 --> 00:31:00,340
as well like several of the Royal Marines that I've had on the show that was what got

396
00:31:00,340 --> 00:31:04,340
them is the most genius advertising is like you're probably not going to be good enough

397
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:09,140
for this job and everyone that actually you know is the right personality be like oh really?

398
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:13,380
Hold my beer so it was genius.

399
00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:17,540
All right well then Afghanistan the first time.

400
00:31:17,540 --> 00:31:20,980
What I rather than dragging through all the details of every single one I'm going to put

401
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:25,940
this to you and you can draw from Afghanistan and Iraq and we'll kind of go to each one

402
00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:33,940
you know in a minute but overall perspective certainly here in America probably less so

403
00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:39,060
in the UK but we get a very polarized view of war you know maybe it's worse now back

404
00:31:39,060 --> 00:31:43,860
home either a very pro-war rhetoric you know kill them all like God sort them out or a

405
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:48,340
very anti-war rhetoric you know they're all baby killers and in the middle are the men

406
00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:52,320
and women that actually stand you know boots on the ground with our flag on their shoulder

407
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,700
you know doing what we asked them to do so two-part question the first part regardless

408
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:02,460
of the politics sent you there was there a point it could be first Afghan you know whenever

409
00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:07,580
it was where you realize that there were some you know horrific people committing atrocities

410
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:12,540
that you and your men in this case were going to address.

411
00:32:12,540 --> 00:32:17,740
Yeah yeah you're 100% right and social media doesn't help with any of this stuff now because

412
00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:23,040
you get so many people that are opinionated off the back of the rumor mill but the realities

413
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:30,380
of it was if you're gonna rape and kill innocent women and children and behead innocent men

414
00:32:30,380 --> 00:32:35,740
then well we can't have that we're gonna have to come and put a stop to that but I feel

415
00:32:35,740 --> 00:32:40,340
it's very narrow-minded for people to just give it the baby killer thing and all like

416
00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:47,500
we didn't run around murdering people we were there to stop people getting murdered because

417
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:53,820
terrorism is a cancer that spreads like wildfire and that ideology is not not a good thing

418
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:59,340
we've seen it from the Taliban the Al Qaeda to ISIS to Boko Haram Al Shabaab whatever

419
00:32:59,340 --> 00:33:06,740
continent or country a terrorist organization is in the atrocities they commit are barbaric

420
00:33:06,740 --> 00:33:09,500
you can't have that.

421
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:14,740
Absolutely well conversely other side of the question the thing that the media does very

422
00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:19,580
poorly as well as TAR an entire country with the same brush so you know we're at war with

423
00:33:19,580 --> 00:33:24,780
Iraq we're at war with Afghanistan when we're not you guys are there helping the native

424
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:30,340
people protect their own communities against these extremists so we never hear about the

425
00:33:30,340 --> 00:33:34,420
kindness of compassion whether it's from the men and women and children in these countries

426
00:33:34,420 --> 00:33:39,580
or whether it's our soldiers or Royal Marines so when you look back at all of the deployments

427
00:33:39,580 --> 00:33:43,860
you know were there times where you remember kindness and compassion amidst this battle

428
00:33:43,860 --> 00:33:46,260
ground?

429
00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:53,780
Yeah probably the one that sticks out in my head the most is I was deployed into the Middle

430
00:33:53,780 --> 00:34:05,660
East as part of a special forces combat liaison team and we was in the vehicles fully laden

431
00:34:05,660 --> 00:34:12,980
big guns and as we was rolling through this city you had a lot of the farmers their children

432
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:17,340
and all these displaced people that were on the outskirts of the city all sort of like

433
00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:24,220
waving at us like ah way thumbs up and clapping and obviously they was coming away from the

434
00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:28,540
enemy and we was driving towards them and it was like that sense of pride yeah I'll

435
00:34:28,540 --> 00:34:37,460
go and get get your city back or certainly try and that was quite a nice thing to see.

436
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:40,460
Well this is what we don't hear you know and I mean obviously you know I'll get to this

437
00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:44,860
in a second but you know there's also that element of I heard this a lot from I think

438
00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:50,020
it was Iraq and Afghanistan when we the allies first or you should I say it wasn't me when

439
00:34:50,020 --> 00:34:54,500
you first got there you know early early on there was the same kind of welcome are these

440
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:59,540
people are going to help liberate our country the problem is you fast forward 10 years we

441
00:34:59,540 --> 00:35:04,060
haven't left you know and now there's that turning where people that were our allies

442
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:06,380
now become our enemies.

443
00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:14,460
Yeah I definitely think it didn't help with the withdrawal of Afghanistan either because

444
00:35:14,460 --> 00:35:20,500
we put a lot of time effort money building relationships and infrastructure into that

445
00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:27,580
country and then pretty much just run away overnight probably destabilize the country

446
00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:33,660
within a week but obviously I don't make them decisions but there was definitely a lot of

447
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:38,340
good to come out of it I did I did a seven month tour in Afghanistan where I was embedded

448
00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:48,580
with their special forces and I spent a lot of time with Afghan people in a small team

449
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:54,220
we'd eat together sleep together go out on the ground together and try and rid these

450
00:35:54,220 --> 00:36:02,780
towns cities and villages of you can't even really call them humans they're monsters if

451
00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:06,720
you go into a village and go are you joining us and they say no and then you start beheading

452
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:11,780
everyone in the middle of the street you're a monster and there's only one thing for you

453
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:18,620
because once you've got that mindset of that's that violent and that horrific you can never

454
00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:24,460
change that I know people say I see the good and you will never change in that once you

455
00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:29,180
are that far gone that way and you're that extreme there's no coming back from that which

456
00:36:29,180 --> 00:36:33,860
is why the military has to intervene to try and bring peace and stability to the region

457
00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:40,740
as you said the media are very good at painting the wrong picture you have quite an interesting

458
00:36:40,740 --> 00:36:46,380
perspective because you you know we're Afghanistan excuse me in Afghanistan certain times during

459
00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:53,180
you know the last decade or so rather than again pull individual events out of each deployment

460
00:36:53,180 --> 00:37:00,020
what did you see as far as the the progression you know was it was it an evolution was it

461
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:04,900
a devolution you know with with each time that you visited you know how did your perspective

462
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:10,780
change and then and then also I guess I'll throw in there the success or the challenges

463
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:20,380
of some of the the the tactics that we're employing amongst the allies so my first Afghan

464
00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:25,580
there was IED strikes but they wasn't really heard of by that point certainly not towards

465
00:37:25,580 --> 00:37:30,660
the back end of the campaign where it was every day someone was treading on an IED which

466
00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:37,520
gave us the freedom of movement to push out further so for example I was in a place called

467
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:45,780
Kajaki in northern Elman province when we was out there in 2007 and 8 our northern forward

468
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:51,460
line of enemy troops was about five kilometers and to the south it was about seven and then

469
00:37:51,460 --> 00:37:58,300
when I went back in 2010 I went to the Sangin district center which was as everyone knows

470
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:04,740
one of the Taliban's main strongholds and some of my friends that went back to Kajaki

471
00:38:04,740 --> 00:38:09,220
were saying that the forward line of enemy troops had now come into sort of like within

472
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:15,580
a couple of kilometers and on the northern side to 500 meters so we'd lost a lot of ground

473
00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:24,340
and I think it's probably to do with some of the stipulations that were placed on us

474
00:38:24,340 --> 00:38:30,900
to kind of give the enemy the upper hand so I think it was always a case of cat and mouse

475
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:35,820
really we'd take ground we'd lose it we'd take ground we'd lose it and then when I

476
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:46,100
went back to Afghanistan in 2011 to 12 I was part of a different unit where it was all

477
00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:55,260
strike stuff all int based or intelligence based so we spent the whole tour finding out

478
00:38:55,260 --> 00:39:01,220
where Taliban strongholds were IED factories and all the stuff that was causing the men

479
00:39:01,220 --> 00:39:07,020
and women in the FOBs and patrol bases a hard time we were going out and hitting them at

480
00:39:07,020 --> 00:39:13,060
night and that was very rewarding because of the stuff that we was taking off target

481
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:21,500
we was denying weapons drugs homemade explosives denying IED factories and that was all having

482
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:27,820
a direct effect on the whole bigger battle picture.

483
00:39:27,820 --> 00:39:32,460
Speaking of drugs I've said this a few times on the show when I first started the podcast

484
00:39:32,460 --> 00:39:40,660
you know the opium in Afghanistan specifically would come up and the soldiers you know Airmen

485
00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:43,860
whoever it was were talking were very tight lipped it wasn't like I was pushing it was

486
00:39:43,860 --> 00:39:49,100
just like oh okay that's definitely a no-go area and then three four years ago all of

487
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:54,180
a sudden the door flew open and everyone was talking about it and I think it's an important

488
00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:59,620
perspective in this world where we've demonized addiction and it's such an irony because so

489
00:39:59,620 --> 00:40:04,900
many people in uniform struggle a lot of our men and women are you know leaning into something

490
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:10,020
alcohol opiates you know whatever it is and now plant medicine you know ayahuasca you

491
00:40:10,020 --> 00:40:15,260
know MDMA all these things that we demonize are actually healing a lot of our war fighters

492
00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:20,640
from the trauma that they experienced but with this prohibition with this demonization

493
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,140
of addiction and we're you know we're throwing people who have a mental health condition

494
00:40:24,140 --> 00:40:29,220
in prison thinking that will magically stop them being addicted you know we've created

495
00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:33,140
so many issues and we see it in America like as a firefighter and a paramedic here I saw

496
00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:37,860
the gangs I saw the homelessness I saw the sex workers I saw all the things the overdoses

497
00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:41,500
and that's all from drug prohibition.

498
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:47,100
Talk to me about what you observed and how the illicit drug trade was funding the terrorism

499
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:50,100
that you guys were fighting.

500
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:56,060
So I'll give you one example we stopped a vehicle and well thought out they had obviously

501
00:40:56,060 --> 00:41:03,460
built and welded in secret compartments within sort of white Toyota Corolla and when we stripped

502
00:41:03,460 --> 00:41:12,740
it had 11 million pounds worth of processed heroin in it 11 million UK pounds worth spying

503
00:41:12,740 --> 00:41:19,060
you a lot of weapons a lot of ammunition a lot of explosives to continue on with your

504
00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:26,780
war effort and that was just one car on one night so you think of how many you'd have

505
00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:31,580
the American Special Forces British Special Forces the Australians Canadians Estonians

506
00:41:31,580 --> 00:41:36,860
all people doing strike ops you'd have the men and the women in the PBs going out on

507
00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:44,340
patrols seizing drugs and stumbling across factories and opiate fields and all that stuff

508
00:41:44,340 --> 00:41:50,260
11 million pounds on one day probably wasn't going to make a great difference when the

509
00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:53,100
country had so much of it.

510
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:56,820
Do you know where a lot of that was destined was it Europe or the US?

511
00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:57,820
I don't know.

512
00:41:57,820 --> 00:42:00,940
Yeah, I'd imagine probably everywhere.

513
00:42:00,940 --> 00:42:06,980
Yeah, yeah, I know the US consumes 75% of the world's opioids, so I'm sure a lot of

514
00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:08,900
it was coming here.

515
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:10,040
Yeah.

516
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,900
What about Iraq for a moment the contrast between Afghanistan and Iraq because again

517
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:21,460
you know dragnetting we're at war with both everyone again I said I'm say everyone there

518
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:26,860
is you know a lack of education that makes people think that those two are very similar

519
00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:32,220
countries but you know having guests and people that from those places obviously you've got

520
00:42:32,220 --> 00:42:37,060
in a mountainous Afghanistan very very tribal then you have Iraq that used to be you know

521
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:41,660
a playground for a lot of people from Europe what was the difference that you saw through

522
00:42:41,660 --> 00:42:46,700
your eyes from the countries themselves and you know wearing uniform as far as the military

523
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:47,700
side?

524
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:54,860
So I didn't do any warfighting in Iraq I was there to help train their navy to patrol their

525
00:42:54,860 --> 00:43:00,580
waterways but it was just very westernized I remember I remember being in southern Iraq

526
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:04,980
and kind of thinking this resembles like a Turkey or an Egypt or something like that

527
00:43:04,980 --> 00:43:12,100
whereas as you just alluded to Afghanistan was fields, green zone and very very mountainous

528
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:20,500
so they were two totally different landscapes and Iraq yeah I wasn't there for the invasion

529
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:26,260
I was too young and I wasn't even in the military then so the lads who did all the warfighting

530
00:43:26,260 --> 00:43:32,260
I definitely didn't none of that there I was more sort of like on a training role if you

531
00:43:32,260 --> 00:43:38,820
like to help their Iraqi marines and navy patrol their waterways.

532
00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:40,660
What was your specialty in the Royal Marines?

533
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:41,660
Was it anti-tank?

534
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:44,600
Yeah so I was anti-tanks.

535
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:50,060
So I heard you know it's getting assigned and deploying to Afghanistan forgive my naivety

536
00:43:50,060 --> 00:43:55,020
but when I think of that conflict I don't think of tanks so you know what would be the

537
00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:59,340
target were there a lot of you know tanks amongst the Taliban or was it more that you

538
00:43:59,340 --> 00:44:02,540
were aiming towards heavy guns or some of the other other areas that you could use the

539
00:44:02,540 --> 00:44:04,060
same weapon systems for?

540
00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:11,300
Yeah so yeah there wasn't a lot of tanks but the anti-tank missiles and the anti-tank

541
00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:17,340
weapon systems that we had had good range on them which meant we could provide fire

542
00:44:17,340 --> 00:44:24,060
support for the marines that were going door to door going into the compounds we could

543
00:44:24,060 --> 00:44:30,180
get on the high ground and we could help either dig them out of trouble or fire them into

544
00:44:30,180 --> 00:44:36,740
a village or a town for example and the Javelin anti-tank missile it's got two settings so

545
00:44:36,740 --> 00:44:42,100
it's got a top attack for hitting the turret of a tank but you can also switch it to direct

546
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:50,260
attack which was proving quite useful to use against built up fire positions that the Taliban

547
00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:52,320
had.

548
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,340
What about the evolution of the IED?

549
00:44:54,340 --> 00:44:59,460
I've had some people on here who excuse me at EOD and talking about again you said that

550
00:44:59,460 --> 00:45:03,420
we were cat and mouse like they would they would figure out how to you know diffuse a

551
00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:07,420
certain one and then you know the Taliban would create a different version or they'd

552
00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:10,620
create a second device so they lure them with the first.

553
00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:15,140
What were you seeing as far as the evolution of that and then the impact on the men that

554
00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:17,820
you served with?

555
00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:27,220
So the first IED exposure I ever come across was when unfortunately three of our lads in

556
00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:34,020
my section detonated the device but this was early on in the Afghan campaign so it was

557
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:41,580
82 millimeter mortars hooked up to a pressure plate with a battery source and that was how

558
00:45:41,580 --> 00:45:53,180
that was detonated victim operated and then fast forward 2012 I was part of a team that

559
00:45:53,180 --> 00:46:00,940
I was leading the close down an IED factory and we found like glass test tubes with three

560
00:46:00,940 --> 00:46:11,340
different substances in it and it would have like a gray powder with a purple liquid in

561
00:46:11,340 --> 00:46:15,260
between and then a white powder obviously I'm not EOD so I'm not even going to pretend

562
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:20,540
like I know what it was but it looked like something that needed to get pushed up the

563
00:46:20,540 --> 00:46:25,540
chain through the correct channels and it was so far advanced that it took out needing

564
00:46:25,540 --> 00:46:33,020
a battery pack which obviously brings it to no metal content so when people were using

565
00:46:33,020 --> 00:46:41,300
mine clearance drills with metal detectors they'd do all sorts of things run longer wires

566
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:47,340
they had no metal content IEDs even solar paneled IEDs when they digged them in at night

567
00:46:47,340 --> 00:46:53,220
and then when you come along obviously they've been watching us as we watch them the Valor

568
00:46:53,220 --> 00:46:58,220
man as we call them who would be the point man scanning for devices in the ground he'd

569
00:46:58,220 --> 00:47:03,260
come along with his paintbrush or his fingers to sweep to confirm whether it was just a

570
00:47:03,260 --> 00:47:08,060
Coke can or a improvised explosive device and then the sunlight edit the solar panel

571
00:47:08,060 --> 00:47:13,980
and bang they got very good with it they started daisy chaining them so if someone hit one

572
00:47:13,980 --> 00:47:22,140
you'd have four or five go off together or they another country I went to later in my

573
00:47:22,140 --> 00:47:28,260
career which was actually my last job they had even figured out how to put them on PIR

574
00:47:28,260 --> 00:47:34,660
so you know like in your house where you've got an alarm and you've got the motion detector

575
00:47:34,660 --> 00:47:39,540
in the corner for if anyone breaks through your back door they'd manage to set them so

576
00:47:39,540 --> 00:47:45,700
it would take out the fifth person in the in the stack for example example so yeah they

577
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:52,300
got they got very good with IEDs and they got very complex so what about yourself I

578
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:56,940
mean we've been hearing obviously some you know some lower up tempo deployments and then

579
00:47:56,940 --> 00:48:01,860
some very high ones you know high fatality rate as I heard you again on the podcast saying

580
00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:07,980
that this was the first time since Korea that you lost so many Royal Marines what talk to

581
00:48:07,980 --> 00:48:12,460
me about the impact of you know on you I mean you've got you know this high stress level

582
00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:18,100
sleep deprivation you know all these other things and then loss after loss after loss

583
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:25,100
did you have any lows in your own mental health as you were progressing through I wouldn't

584
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:34,380
say mental health I definitely got quite bitter and wanted a hell of a lot of revenge I was

585
00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:38,220
in a couple of situations where I watched my friends unfortunately get blown up and

586
00:48:38,220 --> 00:48:45,460
die and then obviously they'd use an IED strikers a come on then you get ambushed so you've

587
00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:51,220
got to try and sort your casualties out but at the same time repel an ambush so there

588
00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:55,940
was definitely some horrific days out there but like we were talking at the beginning

589
00:48:55,940 --> 00:49:03,220
of this about what made that generation through World War II so good is the tough times brought

590
00:49:03,220 --> 00:49:09,700
everyone together and just made us more concrete together and everyone yeah what we had was

591
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:14,100
special like everyone was in the same boat and we was all in it together and we was going

592
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:20,700
to move mountains to make sure that we'd all be alright whilst completing our mission

593
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:24,100
I want to get to your transition in a second but as you're going through this I'm assuming

594
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:31,940
that some of your men are transitioning out what did you see as far as the impact once

595
00:49:31,940 --> 00:49:35,980
they left and the reason why I say this and I had Sebastian Junger on several times and

596
00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:42,020
he wrote Tribe and you know his observation as an embedded journalist was again I think

597
00:49:42,020 --> 00:49:48,100
they were in Restrepo so it was one of the highest impacted places in Afghanistan and

598
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:52,740
he saw like you said I mean they lost people Restrepo was named after one of their guys

599
00:49:52,740 --> 00:49:58,860
but he saw this just you know iron forge of these men but when they went back to Italy

600
00:49:58,860 --> 00:50:03,620
to the demob was when he started seeing it all kind of coming apart because they weren't

601
00:50:03,620 --> 00:50:08,620
around each other anymore and they all started going home what were you seeing as far as

602
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:12,940
some of your fellow Marines when they transitioned out and now they didn't have that tight knit

603
00:50:12,940 --> 00:50:16,520
group anymore and they weren't wearing the uniform and they lost their kind of purpose

604
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:21,920
for a bit that so many of us do when we transition out?

605
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:29,740
I think looking back there's certain things I think the Royal Marines did wrong as an

606
00:50:29,740 --> 00:50:34,980
organisation which cost people their mental health and I'll elaborate because I'll probably

607
00:50:34,980 --> 00:50:42,100
get slated for slating the Royal Marines but we'd come back from Afghanistan as a tight

608
00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:48,500
knit unit that's just spent seven months war fighting and if you didn't have a specialisation

609
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:54,660
like myself I was anti-tank so I'd stay within my troop within my company some of the younger

610
00:50:54,660 --> 00:51:01,580
lads and I don't necessarily mean age-wise I mean like maybe a year or two out of training

611
00:51:01,580 --> 00:51:07,780
that they hadn't specialised yet they were getting sent off on courses or to other drafts

612
00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:16,180
like sometimes one incident one of the lads from our troop he got sent to a naval establishment

613
00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:19,420
and I think things like that were quite harsh because he's just gone through all that trauma

614
00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:25,700
for seven months with a band of brothers and you've just drafted him to a naval base where

615
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:30,540
he's not going to be around like-minded people or people that have shared the same heart

616
00:51:30,540 --> 00:51:40,020
ache and sort of like team cohesion that we had and I think people just go inside themselves

617
00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:46,460
and are like oh I'm not part of that anymore same as when people leave service one minute

618
00:51:46,460 --> 00:51:55,380
you're a team leader or something on operations and it's you're the most important thing for

619
00:51:55,380 --> 00:52:00,980
the United Kingdom's military at that time and then a month later you're outside and

620
00:52:00,980 --> 00:52:10,540
it's like where do I belong now that's all I can guess because touch wood luckily I don't

621
00:52:10,540 --> 00:52:14,380
feel that I struggle with any mental health.

622
00:52:14,380 --> 00:52:18,620
It's an important conversation though and it should be there to make the Royal Marines

623
00:52:18,620 --> 00:52:22,140
better it shouldn't you know that's the problem is that we shy away from some of these conversations

624
00:52:22,140 --> 00:52:27,860
but it's not an empty criticism it's constructive criticism hey you know we did it one way and

625
00:52:27,860 --> 00:52:32,740
it seemed to cause problems I don't know if you have an issue with suicide like we do

626
00:52:32,740 --> 00:52:38,100
in fire and police here but I mean you know the behind the scenes of this heroic profession

627
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:42,480
that we do is a lot of men and women struggling a lot of suicide a lot of overdoses a lot

628
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:47,220
of alcoholism and it's not all doom and gloom but the only way we're going to fix it is

629
00:52:47,220 --> 00:52:51,340
to change the way that we do it otherwise we'll just keep doing the same thing.

630
00:52:51,340 --> 00:52:57,220
Of course yeah fully agree unfortunately I have lost a few friends that have taken their

631
00:52:57,220 --> 00:53:04,860
own lives because the demons got the better of them but at the same time times are changing

632
00:53:04,860 --> 00:53:10,660
and more help is becoming available and I think we're still well behind but we're moving

633
00:53:10,660 --> 00:53:13,260
in the right direction.

634
00:53:13,260 --> 00:53:19,260
About a year and a half ago I got to visit Reorg in Plymouth and I had Sam Sheriff kind

635
00:53:19,260 --> 00:53:25,820
of ran a jujitsu class and rolled with um oh my goodness I'm blanking his name now junior

636
00:53:25,820 --> 00:53:31,620
rolled with junior and got murdered by both of them but uh you know I saw how you know

637
00:53:31,620 --> 00:53:37,660
them and then obviously Ben whose gym it was had created this place for Royal Marines to

638
00:53:37,660 --> 00:53:41,780
reconvene to be together again and I just sat there having coffee you know before and

639
00:53:41,780 --> 00:53:47,140
after and there was some you know some pretty mature Royal Marines coming in and uh it was

640
00:53:47,140 --> 00:53:53,100
incredible so that's that's what's needed you know is is to prepare us for transition

641
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:58,700
in the first place if you've had someone literally you know in combat don't dump them out two

642
00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:01,980
days later now they're in Sainsbury's wondering what the fuck just happened you know what

643
00:54:01,980 --> 00:54:06,100
I mean and then also give them a place to feel connected whether it's a firefighter

644
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:10,820
and you bring them back in for training or you know whatever it is you've given everything

645
00:54:10,820 --> 00:54:15,820
to that tribe that has become your identity and sometimes it's too far towards the identity

646
00:54:15,820 --> 00:54:20,660
but you can't just you know let the doors close behind a man or a woman and then that's

647
00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:26,220
it you cut the strings I mean you they've given you so much so we owe it to them to

648
00:54:26,220 --> 00:54:30,620
to make that transition smoother and then give them a place where they can be amongst

649
00:54:30,620 --> 00:54:37,020
their men and women again yeah 100 agreed well you mentioned somewhere in the middle

650
00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:43,660
east so let's transition to there I know February 2019 was a pretty uh poignant day for you

651
00:54:43,660 --> 00:54:51,660
or you know month for you should I say yeah great job best job I ever did uh the pinnacle

652
00:54:51,660 --> 00:55:01,980
on my soldiering career doing covert operations against ISIS and um it was it was relentless

653
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:07,340
every day there was uh we were scrapping every day obviously we were trying to rid the middle

654
00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:12,460
east of ISIS because of everyone knows who ISIS are they were on the world stage for

655
00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:24,780
the atrocities they were committing and uh yeah I'd uh engaged a dash position and about

656
00:55:24,780 --> 00:55:30,940
10 minutes later we got engaged with an American anti-tank missile not by the Americans but

657
00:55:30,940 --> 00:55:37,500
it had got into the wrong hands after being um gifted to the Iraqi army and then we got

658
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:44,300
hit with a tow anti-tank missile suffered some friendly casualties which thankfully

659
00:55:44,940 --> 00:55:51,420
they're still all right and still with us today unfortunately we did lose three of our indigenous

660
00:55:51,420 --> 00:56:00,140
forces that we were partnered with and then um four of us got sent home the following day we got

661
00:56:00,140 --> 00:56:06,780
medevaced because a few of us were slurring and not too steady on our feet come back to

662
00:56:06,780 --> 00:56:13,340
Birmingham hospital and MRI scans hearing tests all the general checkup and lookovers

663
00:56:14,940 --> 00:56:19,180
and then I actually flew back into the middle east for another month

664
00:56:20,780 --> 00:56:27,420
and continued on as if nothing had ever happened I come home on my r&r so I had two weeks at home

665
00:56:28,220 --> 00:56:33,980
and the day before I was due to fly back to do the second half of my tour I'll had a phone call

666
00:56:33,980 --> 00:56:39,020
from a very high ranking lady at Birmingham hospital who kind of become like a mother figure

667
00:56:39,020 --> 00:56:44,300
to me throughout the next part of this story telling me that I had to be at hospital at eight

668
00:56:44,300 --> 00:56:49,420
o'clock the following morning at the time I was in Guildford so it's a good two and a half three

669
00:56:49,420 --> 00:56:56,380
hour drive and she said don't drive and I went well I'm going to Heathrow tomorrow because I'm

670
00:56:56,380 --> 00:57:01,020
going back in the theater she was like you know you'll be here at eight o'clock in the morning

671
00:57:01,020 --> 00:57:08,220
and I was like maybe this might be serious so my mum drove me to Birmingham hospital I was rushed

672
00:57:08,220 --> 00:57:13,580
in for a MRI scan and then it was kind of like being a celebrity there was loads of people in

673
00:57:13,580 --> 00:57:20,140
white overcoats and clipboards and oh yeah come with me Mr Islet and then we walked into a

674
00:57:20,780 --> 00:57:26,860
doctor's office there was like a hollow square of chairs sat around yeah again all people in suits

675
00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:32,220
and clipboards and I remember saying out loud what is that little fucking good does it

676
00:57:33,660 --> 00:57:41,020
they sat me down and said they tried all the pink and fluffy softly approach oh gosh can't

677
00:57:41,020 --> 00:57:47,180
I can't suffer it I said oh can we just get to the point because clearly there's something going on

678
00:57:47,180 --> 00:57:52,140
I'd rather just node and beat around the bush and then they started to explain to me what brain

679
00:57:52,140 --> 00:57:57,580
tumors were when I was like that I don't really know anything about them to be honest obviously

680
00:57:57,580 --> 00:58:03,180
I know they exist but I'd never known anyone with one I've never really heard anything about the

681
00:58:03,180 --> 00:58:12,860
severity of what a brain tumor can do to a person's life and that was the start of the end of my

682
00:58:12,860 --> 00:58:19,340
career really and they thought the end of my life but tomorrow I'll make it into the top six percent

683
00:58:19,340 --> 00:58:26,700
of survivors in the world talk to me about that though I mean you've literally escaped death you

684
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:33,660
know in in combat zones for years and years and years now you sit there surrounded by super

685
00:58:33,660 --> 00:58:39,580
attentive medical personnel you know what what was that news and then the first couple of days for

686
00:58:39,580 --> 00:58:47,020
you like because I mean that's a pretty terrifying diagnosis to be given well I remember sitting in

687
00:58:47,020 --> 00:58:51,340
the office and all I kept doing was looking at my watch thinking if they are up with this I can still

688
00:58:51,340 --> 00:58:58,140
make that fight out of it bro got nothing to lose now and I was just like that do you know what I

689
00:58:58,140 --> 00:59:02,700
didn't even really care I just knew that my pals were on the ground mixing it up and I wanted to

690
00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:09,980
be there and they obviously told me what brain tumors were and at this precise moment in time

691
00:59:09,980 --> 00:59:15,340
they couldn't determine the severity of what brain tumor I had but all they told me is it had to come

692
00:59:15,340 --> 00:59:22,860
out with an emergency craniotomy so I said well I've only got three months of the tour left so if

693
00:59:22,860 --> 00:59:26,780
I do the three months then I've got a month's leave can we worry about this on my month's leave

694
00:59:26,780 --> 00:59:31,420
and then we'll crack on as normal they kind of looked at me as if I was I think they were a bit

695
00:59:31,420 --> 00:59:35,660
gobsmacked I don't know whether they was looking at me as if I was stupid or not but they were like

696
00:59:35,660 --> 00:59:40,460
no I don't think you're grasping the severity of this I was like yeah but surely we can worry about

697
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:47,580
in three months time can't be that bad and they were like you are not deploying back into fear

698
00:59:47,580 --> 00:59:53,900
that's that done so I was like that oh brilliant and the best thing was is I got to drive home

699
00:59:53,900 --> 01:00:01,580
past Heathrow thinking oh there's my flight and then three weeks later I had I had the craniotomy

700
01:00:01,580 --> 01:00:05,740
set they gave me loads of steroids to reduce the swelling in my brain to be able to do surgery

701
01:00:05,740 --> 01:00:13,420
so I went in and I had pretty much a large percentage of the front right part of my brain

702
01:00:13,420 --> 01:00:21,740
removed and then they obviously sent it off for a biopsy I was in hospital for a bit the lads were

703
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:28,540
coming to visit me every day which was nice and then it was about 10 days later I had a

704
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:35,900
I had a meeting with my consultant so I was actually with a with a friend of mine because

705
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:41,020
my mum and dad had taken my children on holiday and they were going to cancel the holiday and I

706
01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:45,820
said no that's not fair on my kids because none of us planned for me to be here so I'd like you to

707
01:00:45,820 --> 01:00:50,540
still they've been looking forward to the holiday I'd like you to still go on a family holiday and

708
01:00:50,540 --> 01:00:55,020
I'll be all right so my friend come and stay with me in the hospital because the whole time I'm

709
01:00:55,020 --> 01:01:01,020
staying in a an amazing facility called Fisher House which is a welfare house for the families

710
01:01:01,020 --> 01:01:08,380
of injured soldiers and at the time obviously the country wasn't really engaged in a known war

711
01:01:09,660 --> 01:01:14,940
Afghanistan had the combat operations had died right down so the house was pretty much empty

712
01:01:14,940 --> 01:01:20,860
and they was using it for service members with cancer that needed a place to stay that had

713
01:01:20,860 --> 01:01:26,700
traveled far from treatment or any follow-up appointments so I got to stay in there

714
01:01:28,220 --> 01:01:32,460
for a lot longer than I anticipated but it was a lovely facility with amazing people

715
01:01:33,980 --> 01:01:38,460
so me and my friend walked over to the main hospital which is like a five minute walk

716
01:01:39,740 --> 01:01:44,860
and he said to me how are you feeling I went well it's only two outcomes I'm either good or

717
01:01:44,860 --> 01:01:50,220
fucked that's it there's no in between this area it's one or the other and he went nah you'll be

718
01:01:50,220 --> 01:01:57,260
all right you're good well we'll find out in 10 minutes and when in same scenario people sat around

719
01:01:58,140 --> 01:02:06,380
and I looked around and I was like come on hit me with it and they basically said you've got 12 to

720
01:02:06,380 --> 01:02:14,620
15 months to live we need to start chemo and radiotherapy immediately so I was like oh okay

721
01:02:14,620 --> 01:02:17,980
and I looked at my mate and he's like got tears rolling down his cheek and I was like actually

722
01:02:17,980 --> 01:02:23,020
told you I'd either be fucked or good I'm fucked and tried making a bit of a joke about him I

723
01:02:23,020 --> 01:02:29,900
don't think anyone saw the funny side apart from yourself and then it was a very quiet walk back

724
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:36,540
to fisher house and then the worst part of it all was phoning and telling other people

725
01:02:37,740 --> 01:02:41,900
I can deal with it on my own it's when you hear other people's when their voice goes and you're

726
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:49,340
like I've just ruined someone's day and then I was put into a nine month prolonging life phase

727
01:02:50,860 --> 01:02:58,300
where I had two chemotherapies maximum radiotherapy but one of the chemotherapies

728
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:03,740
was making me go blind so I pulled myself off of that one and just said I'd rather die than be

729
01:03:03,740 --> 01:03:09,820
blind because I can't see anything and I'll yeah that ain't happening so I just cracked on and then

730
01:03:09,820 --> 01:03:16,540
I kind of got a bit fed up with sitting around really so the welfare officer told me that I had

731
01:03:16,540 --> 01:03:23,980
two years sick leave to die peacefully at home and I was like now I'm going back to work so I went

732
01:03:23,980 --> 01:03:31,900
back to work and the second lot of chemo that I had I had it for about six or seven months it was

733
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:38,220
tablet form it was the intravenous one that was making me go blind so I said well look I can take

734
01:03:38,220 --> 01:03:45,500
my chemo whilst at work and if I feel ropey I'll just go to the toilet throw up and crack on so I

735
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:50,700
started helping running courses and heavy weapons cadres back in the unit and supporting the

736
01:03:50,700 --> 01:03:56,380
pre-deployment training ready for other units and other teams to go out the door and then that's

737
01:03:56,380 --> 01:04:03,500
where I started doing the counter-terrorism liaison officer stuff with the police the ctsfos

738
01:04:03,500 --> 01:04:10,620
so yeah that was uh quite a hectic time and then covered it

739
01:04:12,620 --> 01:04:20,780
so then it was like go on I was like I'd rather be here but I was trying to like just show people

740
01:04:20,780 --> 01:04:25,660
that this ain't gonna beat me get me get me back on the ground but there was no doctor that was

741
01:04:25,660 --> 01:04:31,420
ever gonna sign off a bloke who's terminally ill and got not long to live to go running around the

742
01:04:31,420 --> 01:04:39,420
middle east again talk to me about the the recovery because as you said you know this was 2019 you

743
01:04:39,420 --> 01:04:44,940
were given just over a year to live and we're sitting here in 2024 now what did they see and

744
01:04:44,940 --> 01:04:49,740
then you kind of alluded to it a little bit talk to me about your mindset because you did the same

745
01:04:49,740 --> 01:04:54,540
kind of treatments that I'm sure lots of other people with the same you know brain tumor had

746
01:04:54,540 --> 01:05:00,860
but not allowing yourself to think about I'm just gonna go home and die because you think about even

747
01:05:00,860 --> 01:05:06,140
retire to take cancer out completely people who retire from this profession if they don't have

748
01:05:06,140 --> 01:05:10,220
purpose a lot of our you know men and women do pass away in their 50s even though they should have

749
01:05:10,220 --> 01:05:18,700
been alive arguably for another 34 years so talk to me about the mindset that you had from diagnosis

750
01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:24,860
through to when we're sitting here today I think it was I looked back at my career

751
01:05:26,060 --> 01:05:30,860
and I've been in I could I couldn't even tell you how many firefights I've been in obviously I've

752
01:05:30,860 --> 01:05:38,620
been involved in two explosions and I was just like I've had probably four or five situations

753
01:05:38,620 --> 01:05:44,620
where I've sat there thought of my kids and my family and gone this is it and then you get that

754
01:05:44,620 --> 01:05:50,060
I love it I think it's the best thing in the world the best feeling is when you're back so far into a

755
01:05:50,060 --> 01:05:58,380
corner and you want to curl up into a ball but you find that hunger within yourself and go no no no

756
01:05:58,940 --> 01:06:04,140
everyone's getting put in the ground before we are and then you find that fight and that willing and

757
01:06:05,260 --> 01:06:10,300
I thought I've survived too much to go through a disease and just die in a hospital bed I was

758
01:06:10,300 --> 01:06:16,540
like I ain't having that so I was like you say terminal I say temporary

759
01:06:18,220 --> 01:06:23,020
like that should be a t-shirt just cracked on really I think going back to work helped

760
01:06:23,820 --> 01:06:26,460
because I was still active

761
01:06:28,060 --> 01:06:32,060
but during my treatment because I'd still be in the hospital for quite a lot of it

762
01:06:32,060 --> 01:06:41,260
I used to turn up sort of like the unit I was part of we used to get issued civilian clothing

763
01:06:42,780 --> 01:06:47,100
so like your north face your wrap your foul raven your arcteryx we used to get issued that

764
01:06:47,100 --> 01:06:53,660
for certain parts of the rotation so I used to make a point of wearing that for my treatment

765
01:06:54,700 --> 01:07:00,620
and then when I wasn't having treatment and I wore me on my arm and I was like I'm gonna die

766
01:07:00,620 --> 01:07:05,740
treatment and I wore me on Arnie jeans and my Stone Island cardigans and my Ralph R. M. Polo tops

767
01:07:06,380 --> 01:07:13,260
there was a difference so I kind of treated my treatment as work something that needs to be done

768
01:07:13,260 --> 01:07:18,220
and then my civvy life going to football and out with my friends I'd wear different clothes so I

769
01:07:18,220 --> 01:07:22,060
wouldn't be sat there looking at a pair of trainers going oh I had chemo in them three days ago

770
01:07:22,620 --> 01:07:28,060
so I kind of like just compartmentalized this is what I need to do and this is how I'm going to do it

771
01:07:28,060 --> 01:07:38,140
so went back to work did all of that and I just carried on training I wasn't breaking any records

772
01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:42,140
like going to the gym because obviously I was ropey and I did throw up a few times I lost all

773
01:07:42,140 --> 01:07:48,940
my hair and everything like that but in my head if I did 15 minutes on a treadmill or half an hour

774
01:07:48,940 --> 01:07:57,420
on a bike or a rower that was in my head a victory of more than what anyone else in my situation was

775
01:07:57,420 --> 01:08:04,460
doing and I just kind of stuck with that really and I kind of looked at everything as like well

776
01:08:04,460 --> 01:08:09,820
that's a positive step forward because going back wasn't an option it was you can go left and you

777
01:08:09,820 --> 01:08:15,580
can go right but you can't go backwards you've got to find a way of going forwards and I just chose

778
01:08:16,620 --> 01:08:23,420
different ways of finding ways to go forward which must be working because as I said earlier

779
01:08:23,420 --> 01:08:28,060
tomorrow I'll make it into the top six percent of survivors in the world with what I've got

780
01:08:29,180 --> 01:08:33,900
and then once tomorrow's out of the way we'll ignore that and we'll focus to the 10 year and

781
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:40,380
get into the one percent. It's interesting how you said that you chose to stop chemo and obviously

782
01:08:40,380 --> 01:08:47,340
I mean losing your vision is a pretty strong motivator for that but I think it's very exciting

783
01:08:47,340 --> 01:08:52,780
we're starting to shift seemingly into the world of immunotherapy now which I'm not super well

784
01:08:52,780 --> 01:08:56,780
versed in but it seems a lot safer for the patient a lot more targeted for the cancer

785
01:08:57,420 --> 01:09:01,660
because when you look back and you look at you know I mean the women that have breast cancer and

786
01:09:01,660 --> 01:09:06,220
the children that have leukemia and you know this these chemo treatments destroy them I mean they

787
01:09:06,220 --> 01:09:12,140
absolutely you know and I there's no way of knowing but I can't help but feel that chemo kills some of

788
01:09:12,140 --> 01:09:17,900
these people more than cancer does you know maybe that if they were able to do some as you said some

789
01:09:17,900 --> 01:09:22,220
mindset shifts some exercise some change in diet who knows maybe they could have you know

790
01:09:22,220 --> 01:09:28,060
reverse whatever they were going through but you took away one of your treatments and you actually

791
01:09:28,060 --> 01:09:35,420
had great success so I know what is your observation of of just that of being your

792
01:09:35,420 --> 01:09:39,740
own advocate even if you're going through a terminal diagnosis and receiving chemo at the time

793
01:09:42,060 --> 01:09:47,900
I think if I look back at all the time I've spent in that prolonging life phase in the cancer center

794
01:09:47,900 --> 01:09:55,820
I'd say the majority of it is all in the mind because I'd see people in the cancer center

795
01:09:56,380 --> 01:10:02,700
as you do with either their partner or parents and you'd see them go into the oncologist's

796
01:10:02,700 --> 01:10:07,420
offices and then you'd see them come out and you'd see certain people just drop their heads

797
01:10:08,860 --> 01:10:13,820
and I was like you've just given up on life like you've literally just been told something

798
01:10:13,820 --> 01:10:19,340
by another human and you've come out and gone and I think that is where it goes wrong when people

799
01:10:19,340 --> 01:10:23,420
drop their heads and go oh I'm gonna die that's the end of it like you need to value your life

800
01:10:23,420 --> 01:10:28,620
and fight for your life until you're in a box because until you're in a box who knows how long

801
01:10:28,620 --> 01:10:39,420
you got the chemo that I stopped having was a trial it was part of a trial so I still had another

802
01:10:39,420 --> 01:10:47,340
load of chemo and radiotherapy anyway but I was kind of at the point of this is just a riff it

803
01:10:47,340 --> 01:10:52,940
and I'm not going to spend my last days however long I have being blind so that was just an option

804
01:10:52,940 --> 01:10:58,540
I'd kind of already accepted that I'd rather die than be blind so that wasn't really a hard

805
01:10:58,540 --> 01:11:05,260
decision for me to make. What about diet you talked about you know working out again not having to

806
01:11:05,260 --> 01:11:09,500
break records but just keep moving again you know get the blood pumping working on strengthening

807
01:11:09,500 --> 01:11:16,540
your body getting outside did you change the way you were eating at all? No my diet was terrible

808
01:11:17,420 --> 01:11:24,060
my diet was horrific the thing is is I can only imagine this is the closest I'll ever get to

809
01:11:24,060 --> 01:11:31,660
feeling what a pregnant woman has and I had some really out there cravings so all I wanted was a

810
01:11:31,660 --> 01:11:37,020
chicken royal with cheese from Burger King a fillet of fish from McDonald's

811
01:11:37,660 --> 01:11:43,340
Aunt Bessie's Toad and the Olds and Nando's that was it that's all I ever wanted and that's pretty

812
01:11:43,340 --> 01:11:48,380
much all I ate for months on end just because the chemo was giving me them weird cravings

813
01:11:48,380 --> 01:11:52,060
that's what I wanted and because I thought I was going to die anyway I was like I certainly

814
01:11:52,060 --> 01:11:57,660
ain't gonna start eating broccoli and Brussels sprouts and carrots and that you know what I mean

815
01:11:57,660 --> 01:12:04,700
because if I've only got a year I want to eat and enjoy what I like. Yeah well one of those four is

816
01:12:04,700 --> 01:12:09,900
good food at least Nando's the rest of shit. Oh yeah totally shit hey I'm still here though five

817
01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:16,620
years later maybe McDonald's will give me a little marketing number. Don't tell them that you'll be

818
01:12:16,620 --> 01:12:24,460
the next Jared from Subway. That didn't end well. All right well then you mentioned about Covid

819
01:12:24,460 --> 01:12:28,700
hitting so talk to me about sitting down and writing your book Every Day is a Battle,

820
01:12:28,700 --> 01:12:35,500
Fighting Demons, Jihadis and Terminal Cancer. So obviously I went back to work,

821
01:12:36,380 --> 01:12:42,060
I was doing what I was doing at work, loving life, just trying every day. Every day to me was a

822
01:12:42,060 --> 01:12:49,580
victory because I hadn't died yet and then Covid hit but I just bought a house to be closer to my

823
01:12:49,580 --> 01:12:56,220
children to spend as much time as I could as close to them as I could in case obviously I did pass

824
01:12:56,220 --> 01:13:02,620
away and I got the keys to my house the day that the UK went into its first proper lockdown.

825
01:13:03,980 --> 01:13:13,020
So where my friends who were in the trades industries couldn't work a lot of them helped me

826
01:13:13,020 --> 01:13:19,820
do my house up so it was livable. So I had my own house which yet again was another positive because

827
01:13:19,820 --> 01:13:27,660
I've just been told I'm going to die anytime soon and a few of my mates from within the special

828
01:13:27,660 --> 01:13:31,980
forces group at various different units were like ah mate if you're just sat at home you need to

829
01:13:31,980 --> 01:13:38,540
write a book. I was like I don't know I don't know nothing about writing a book and then

830
01:13:38,540 --> 01:13:45,260
what birthday would have been so it must have been my 31st birthday I think. My nan bought me an

831
01:13:45,260 --> 01:13:52,540
Apple Mac computer like laptop and I started having a little play around to see if I could

832
01:13:52,540 --> 01:13:57,100
string sentences and paragraphs together in a way that people might actually think I knew what I was

833
01:13:57,100 --> 01:14:04,140
going on about and it started like that and then by the end of it I was able to type all right

834
01:14:04,140 --> 01:14:13,420
so it took me about between 12 and 14 months and I had a I think it was a 76,000 word manuscript

835
01:14:15,020 --> 01:14:20,860
sent it off to the special forces disclosure cell because obviously spending six years

836
01:14:21,500 --> 01:14:29,900
in the group they went through it and I had to redact or retract 33 percent of the words

837
01:14:29,900 --> 01:14:36,060
and I had to redact or retract 33 percent which shocked me a little bit because I thought I'd

838
01:14:36,060 --> 01:14:40,620
been very careful with what I'd spoke about as long as I didn't say countries tactics and people

839
01:14:40,620 --> 01:14:45,980
and all that stuff I thought I was all right but there was stuff that was explained to me that

840
01:14:45,980 --> 01:14:54,540
just couldn't go in there so it was like changing plays on words so yeah the head of the disclosure

841
01:14:54,540 --> 01:15:01,740
cell come around my house and actually sat with me and helped me salvage my manuscript and then

842
01:15:01,740 --> 01:15:10,300
they give me the green light to publish so then I sent it to an editor who went through it and then

843
01:15:10,300 --> 01:15:17,740
because of Covid no publishers were taking on new manuscripts so I just self-published on Amazon

844
01:15:17,740 --> 01:15:25,820
and just got it out there so there's actually one here. Beautiful I self-published on Amazon too

845
01:15:25,820 --> 01:15:28,780
well what was your experience of that I don't know if you had the same thing but when I

846
01:15:29,500 --> 01:15:35,820
when I asked a lot of people and I did ask you know all kinds of people what I got back was if

847
01:15:35,820 --> 01:15:40,780
you and I were Stephen King a publisher would absolutely make sense because they would do

848
01:15:40,780 --> 01:15:44,540
everything they could to promote it and put it in bookstores and all those kind of things

849
01:15:44,540 --> 01:15:52,460
but if you are Rhian or James who no one knows they might give you a small advance and you have

850
01:15:52,460 --> 01:15:56,380
their logo on your book but they're not going to really put any effort into promoting and you

851
01:15:56,380 --> 01:16:02,140
might have a big bill for you know creating the book that now you've got to sell you know x amount

852
01:16:02,140 --> 01:16:09,020
a thousand before you even make a penny so to me you don't have the the kind of marketing ability

853
01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:13,340
that a publisher would have when you self-publish but the beautiful thing is you can put out your

854
01:16:13,340 --> 01:16:17,660
book and you hit upload and it's like all right there it goes so I mean I asked you a question

855
01:16:17,660 --> 01:16:22,460
and gave you a fucking monologue after that so what was your what was your kind of experience

856
01:16:22,460 --> 01:16:28,060
with that type of publishing well I was getting nowhere with any publisher I think I sent out

857
01:16:28,060 --> 01:16:33,660
about 10 emails asking if they were accepting manuscripts and because of the pandemic no one

858
01:16:33,660 --> 01:16:40,940
was doing anything so all I wanted to achieve with my book there was nothing in it to do with

859
01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:48,220
financial gain or anything it was if one person read my book and went oh fuck me I'm gonna crack

860
01:16:48,220 --> 01:16:58,460
on as well I'd achieve mine and yeah I've had quite a few messages of people coming to me

861
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:02,540
saying that they've read my book and look at life in a different perspective now

862
01:17:03,100 --> 01:17:08,700
so as far as I'm concerned I achieved my aim with starting all that even even only a month

863
01:17:08,700 --> 01:17:14,540
ago I had someone message me so I saved their life which was overwhelming to receive a message

864
01:17:14,540 --> 01:17:20,220
like that off the back of a book but as far as the publishing went I found it very easy

865
01:17:21,420 --> 01:17:25,420
and because I wasn't in it for the financial gain I just kind of forgot about it it's on Amazon

866
01:17:26,060 --> 01:17:30,060
obviously I tell people if they buy it they buy it you know I mean it's just I haven't got to

867
01:17:30,060 --> 01:17:39,180
think about it it's just there and it's left a legacy so when I do die in about 50 years time

868
01:17:39,180 --> 01:17:46,620
because I'm going nowhere anytime soon there'll be a book left behind at least I've left something

869
01:17:46,620 --> 01:17:52,700
behind absolutely well this is you know when you hear there's that term the quiet professional

870
01:17:52,700 --> 01:17:57,980
the silent professional you know and a lot of you know the sf and special operations you know men

871
01:17:57,980 --> 01:18:04,220
and women didn't write didn't talk about it but I think as you mentioned if you just leave out the

872
01:18:04,220 --> 01:18:10,220
specificities you know we were here doing this you know with these people and just tell the human

873
01:18:10,220 --> 01:18:16,220
stories there's so much power to it and when you know a royal marine talks about not only you know

874
01:18:16,220 --> 01:18:20,380
their early life and then finding themselves in Mexico for a year and entering the royal marines

875
01:18:20,380 --> 01:18:26,140
in Afghanistan and Iraq and then a brain cancer diagnosis there's so much value to that and you

876
01:18:26,140 --> 01:18:32,460
know the other 33 percent you know who cares and I use that phrase all the time if it helps one

877
01:18:32,460 --> 01:18:36,940
single person it sounds like you've done so much more than that yeah anyone writing a book to make

878
01:18:36,940 --> 01:18:41,980
money is a fool so therefore write a book that actually makes a difference in the world

879
01:18:46,860 --> 01:18:51,020
all right well then just while we're on the cancer conversation before I go to some closing questions

880
01:18:51,820 --> 01:18:55,980
there is a great organization in America called the hunter seven foundation and they really

881
01:18:55,980 --> 01:19:01,100
highlight cancer in uniform you know in the military specifically here in the us and

882
01:19:01,100 --> 01:19:06,620
the burn pits and you know the contaminated water and some of the things that killed a lot of our

883
01:19:06,620 --> 01:19:12,780
you know war fighters here what is that conversation in the uk are you seeing a lot of cancer

884
01:19:12,780 --> 01:19:21,020
in our you know especially our iraq and afghan era soldiers and sailors and role marines and if so

885
01:19:21,020 --> 01:19:26,220
are there organizations that are taking care of them I think we're very far behind when it comes

886
01:19:26,220 --> 01:19:33,580
to stuff like that because I actually um follow hunter seven and have for a couple of years now

887
01:19:33,580 --> 01:19:40,380
I don't know how but um that I'll come across them on instagram and they had actually shared

888
01:19:40,380 --> 01:19:45,580
my book which I thought was mental because I haven't but obviously I have worked with

889
01:19:45,580 --> 01:19:52,140
americans a lot in my career especially the latest stages of my career um so I don't know how it got

890
01:19:52,140 --> 01:19:59,340
to hunter seven but they they published my not published but promoted my book for me and I was

891
01:19:59,340 --> 01:20:06,540
like ah who are these and then I uh interact with them regularly just off of the back of the studies

892
01:20:06,540 --> 01:20:12,700
that they've got going on that they publish on their platform but yeah the uk is just so far behind

893
01:20:12,700 --> 01:20:17,980
are you seeing a lot of cancer then in in the military there I don't know to be honest

894
01:20:18,540 --> 01:20:25,260
not that I'm aware of I know a lot of people in the military and I wouldn't say having followed

895
01:20:25,260 --> 01:20:31,580
hunter seven for a few years now it's certainly not in my opinion anywhere near like that but then

896
01:20:31,580 --> 01:20:39,580
we're a much smaller armed forces yeah we're only sat at about 60 70 000 as a whole military

897
01:20:39,580 --> 01:20:44,700
as a whole military so I think that's probably got a part of playing it but

898
01:20:45,820 --> 01:20:52,780
I'm actually in court in may because when I left service my pension

899
01:20:53,580 --> 01:21:03,500
and the payout I received was pretty pathetic and there's now possibly a

900
01:21:03,500 --> 01:21:10,220
cancer they think maybe now they know I had a brain tumor because it was missed years before

901
01:21:10,220 --> 01:21:15,900
when I was part of a PTSD study to try and help soldiers with PTSD and it was benign but then

902
01:21:15,900 --> 01:21:20,860
within two years it went to the most aggressive form of cancer you can get which is a glioblastoma

903
01:21:22,060 --> 01:21:26,540
so I said well surely in that two-year period where I'm firing every weapons rockets

904
01:21:26,540 --> 01:21:33,740
been hit with a missile something has had to have activated that benign tumor into a malignant cancer

905
01:21:33,900 --> 01:21:40,060
obviously the military are disagreeing at the moment but I take a lot from hunter seven and

906
01:21:40,060 --> 01:21:44,860
the people that they've published their articles back into my case

907
01:21:47,660 --> 01:21:52,860
but yeah hopefully the the uk there's obviously people working in the background that I'm not

908
01:21:52,860 --> 01:22:01,580
privy to but we're nowhere near that hunter seven level where they are actively going out of their

909
01:22:01,580 --> 01:22:08,780
way to help veterans with cancer it's the same even in the fire service we have what's called

910
01:22:08,780 --> 01:22:14,380
cancer presumption laws and what's supposed to happen is if you get these listed cancers that

911
01:22:14,380 --> 01:22:19,420
are supposed to be related to the fire service then you get coverage and obviously your family

912
01:22:19,420 --> 01:22:25,260
gets coverage if you pass away but I've heard from so many people that the insurance companies

913
01:22:25,260 --> 01:22:31,340
behind these you know coverages will fight these first responders knowing that if they die before

914
01:22:31,340 --> 01:22:35,820
there's a you know an agreement then they don't have to pay them so there's some really nasty

915
01:22:35,820 --> 01:22:41,420
underhanded stuff and also take the fires out the way that we work in the first responder professions

916
01:22:41,980 --> 01:22:47,100
like here in America the average work week is 56 hours a week not sleeping every third day for 10

917
01:22:47,100 --> 01:22:53,020
20 30 years that in itself is a carcinogen so they're wanting you to prove oh which fire were

918
01:22:53,020 --> 01:22:58,140
you in that gave you this it's like what's not that that's a little piece of it you're asking

919
01:22:58,140 --> 01:23:04,060
someone to be awake every third day you know or 12 hour three night shifts a week or whatever it is

920
01:23:04,060 --> 01:23:09,900
a shift worker that's classified as a carcinogen in itself you know so if we're going to ask these

921
01:23:09,900 --> 01:23:15,420
men and women to to fight for our country or you know hold the line while you sleep softly in your

922
01:23:15,420 --> 01:23:20,540
bed then we've got to take care of our military and our first responders you know for doing that

923
01:23:21,980 --> 01:23:27,900
yeah well they got this thing I saw on the hunter seven page a few weeks ago operator syndrome

924
01:23:28,860 --> 01:23:34,940
which brings exactly what you've just spoke about into play alongside with the firing of

925
01:23:35,580 --> 01:23:41,420
heavy machine guns rockets and all the stuff that goes with it the blast waves and

926
01:23:41,420 --> 01:23:48,620
and mild traumatic brain injuries and all of that stuff so I've sent all that to my representation

927
01:23:48,620 --> 01:23:55,340
and we'll see what happens in my no doubt I'll just get on but you've got to try yeah never

928
01:23:55,340 --> 01:24:01,740
open until it's over no no may as well fight all right well I want to go to some closing questions

929
01:24:01,740 --> 01:24:06,780
so I can be mindful of your time the first one I love to ask we talked about your book and just to

930
01:24:06,780 --> 01:24:12,140
give the title one more time every day is a battle fighting demons jihadis and terminal cancer

931
01:24:12,780 --> 01:24:17,580
are there any other books written by other people that you love to recommend it can be related to

932
01:24:17,580 --> 01:24:22,780
our discussion today or completely unrelated I'll be deadly honest I've never read a book

933
01:24:24,940 --> 01:24:31,420
I've never ever never read a book obviously I had a busy childhood causing misdemeanors

934
01:24:31,420 --> 01:24:37,180
went to Mexico come back from Mexico I had to catch up with me education join the Marines and

935
01:24:37,180 --> 01:24:43,180
then it was kind of like just a operational cycle constantly I did seven operational tours

936
01:24:44,220 --> 01:24:46,140
covered it I wrote a book

937
01:24:48,380 --> 01:24:54,540
well actually cancer then covered then wrote a book so it's like I've never really had

938
01:24:54,540 --> 01:25:01,180
any time I've never read a book did you find it hard right in a book when you hadn't read a book

939
01:25:01,180 --> 01:25:05,980
the reason I say that is as because I've written one I'm writing my second one now finishing it up

940
01:25:05,980 --> 01:25:10,140
and I have this imposter syndrome because I'm writing a fiction now I don't read fiction that

941
01:25:10,140 --> 01:25:15,500
much and so I'm like how am I gonna do this when I don't even read very many like how do you

942
01:25:15,500 --> 01:25:19,260
you know how do you get a person to talk while you're writing in a book you know how do you

943
01:25:19,260 --> 01:25:24,700
describe you know what they're wearing all this stuff but if I think back and you know I'm

944
01:25:24,700 --> 01:25:29,420
assuming you've read books and textbooks in school but after that never really reading a book

945
01:25:30,300 --> 01:25:34,540
how how did that factor into your writing did you struggle to write

946
01:25:35,740 --> 01:25:43,100
I really enjoyed it because I wrote it in a way of me talking and it was good because

947
01:25:43,100 --> 01:25:47,820
so much had gone on in my career I was phoning people I hadn't spoke to in 10 years going oh

948
01:25:47,820 --> 01:25:52,300
mate do you remember that day and it was like just bringing my relationships closer together and

949
01:25:52,300 --> 01:25:59,580
reminiscing over over old times and yeah I just really enjoyed it and I found it not easy because

950
01:25:59,580 --> 01:26:04,140
it was our work to sit there for five hours a day typing away and thinking does that sound

951
01:26:04,140 --> 01:26:08,700
right rereading it and that but I think I just typed as I would talk

952
01:26:08,700 --> 01:26:11,100
I think I just typed as I would talk

953
01:26:13,580 --> 01:26:19,820
yeah that's that's all I can say really but yeah a bit weird I wrote a book but I've never actually

954
01:26:19,820 --> 01:26:25,500
read one yeah no it's interesting if you ever if you ever gonna read one there's one called tribe

955
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:33,020
by Sebastian Junger and it's only I think 160 pages or something amazing and it's so pertinent to

956
01:26:33,020 --> 01:26:39,020
you know war and that as you said that brotherhood that you had and finding yourself on the outside

957
01:26:39,020 --> 01:26:46,300
um so when people ask this question people either read or they enjoy television and film so what

958
01:26:46,300 --> 01:26:52,940
about films and documentaries any of those that you love band of brothers is an absolute classic

959
01:26:54,380 --> 01:26:57,980
that's that's obvious that should be a given for anyone in the military

960
01:26:57,980 --> 01:27:06,860
and then more recently I've thoroughly enjoyed the covenant 12 strong 13 hours all of them type of

961
01:27:06,860 --> 01:27:14,700
recent films about the seals and the war on terror hacks or rich was another good one obviously from

962
01:27:14,700 --> 01:27:21,420
way back in the day save in private Ryan if we if we're going down like the war film genre

963
01:27:21,420 --> 01:27:29,740
they're some of my favorites I had Shane Taylor on the show who played doc in the band of brothers

964
01:27:29,740 --> 01:27:34,540
and then Captain Dale Dye he was the one that trained all the guys to be soldiers and amazing

965
01:27:34,540 --> 01:27:39,580
I mean you hear the kind of behind the scenes it's it's you know such an incredible production

966
01:27:39,580 --> 01:27:46,220
and I think there's it's such a great reminder as well of what masculinity is supposed to look like

967
01:27:46,220 --> 01:27:50,940
because when you listen to the real men of easy company that at that point was still alive and

968
01:27:50,940 --> 01:27:55,980
talking at the beginning of the end of each episode you can see the raw emotion in their faces and

969
01:27:55,980 --> 01:28:00,140
these were some of the most you know incredible warriors that ever fought wearing an American

970
01:28:00,140 --> 01:28:05,900
uniform and they're in tears they're in tears about you know the people that they lost the people

971
01:28:05,900 --> 01:28:10,700
their lives that they had to take I mean there's you can see that that resonated so not only was

972
01:28:10,700 --> 01:28:16,700
it so well told as far as what they did in the 40s I think their voices in I think back then it

973
01:28:16,700 --> 01:28:23,100
was the 90s when they were doing those recordings you know I mean you're talking 50 plus years 60

974
01:28:23,100 --> 01:28:29,740
years later that a man is supposed to cry the man is supposed to be moved by loss and all the

975
01:28:29,740 --> 01:28:35,820
devastating things they had to endure and so this facade of men don't cry you know rub some dirt in

976
01:28:35,820 --> 01:28:40,620
it stiff up a lit bullshit but yeah there's a time and place for that like in a firefight or

977
01:28:40,620 --> 01:28:45,740
going into a fire but that's not how we're supposed to be all the time we have to process those

978
01:28:45,740 --> 01:28:53,340
traumas yeah fully agreed brilliant all right well speaking of amazing people the next question is

979
01:28:53,340 --> 01:28:58,620
there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders

980
01:28:58,620 --> 01:29:01,340
military and associated professionals of the world

981
01:29:01,340 --> 01:29:08,300
I'll have to think about it but I definitely think it should be someone from the medical emergency

982
01:29:08,300 --> 01:29:13,660
response team you know the people that did all the cazavacs the Americans had the Pedro

983
01:29:15,260 --> 01:29:20,220
Hacksaw we had the Mert then people that were like the flying

984
01:29:21,980 --> 01:29:26,380
surgical theaters that were doing operations on board the

985
01:29:26,380 --> 01:29:35,420
shanook or a blackhawk like them people are yeah they're proper heroes them they saved a lot more

986
01:29:35,420 --> 01:29:41,820
brothers but I'd never really got to meet any because by the time I got flown home from the

987
01:29:41,820 --> 01:29:47,660
middle east it yeah just where we were we were quite remote so I didn't see anyone till I got

988
01:29:47,660 --> 01:29:52,620
back to Birmingham but definitely someone from the medical emergency response team

989
01:29:52,620 --> 01:29:59,180
because I think a lot of podcast books films are about like the kinetic side of things

990
01:30:00,700 --> 01:30:07,900
but obviously then people in the surgeries and on the demurts they go through a whole different

991
01:30:07,900 --> 01:30:15,100
war that's well traumatizing daily just in a mental capacity and physical for the hours that

992
01:30:15,100 --> 01:30:19,500
they're putting in but what I think is the most important thing is that we're not just talking

993
01:30:19,500 --> 01:30:24,060
capacity and physical for the hours that they're putting in but what I mean is they're seeing

994
01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:31,420
they're seeing their fellow countrymen blown to smithereens and shot to pieces and

995
01:30:32,060 --> 01:30:37,340
yeah I think that would be a really interesting one 100% and then when you say that I think again

996
01:30:37,340 --> 01:30:41,180
of Mark Ormrock when he's telling a story of lying there they all thought he was dead in the corner

997
01:30:41,180 --> 01:30:46,300
of a helicopter and all of a sudden they realized he's still breathing the next people I'm assuming

998
01:30:46,300 --> 01:30:52,540
he saw were exactly who you're talking about yeah brilliant so yeah I'm sorry I'm not going to know

999
01:30:52,540 --> 01:31:01,900
anyone to hand but from that cohort of professionals where anyone listening feel free to message me if

1000
01:31:01,900 --> 01:31:05,900
you have someone I think that we need to tell the story so thank you for that all right well

1001
01:31:05,900 --> 01:31:10,220
then the last question before we make sure everyone knows where to find you and your book what do you

1002
01:31:10,220 --> 01:31:20,780
do to decompress these days I'll go I'll go to football try and work when I can and I like

1003
01:31:20,780 --> 01:31:27,580
going to the pub as most of us do what about the England squad are they looking good for the euro

1004
01:31:28,700 --> 01:31:33,900
same old England in it go into every competition with I oats and then just get your heart broken

1005
01:31:33,900 --> 01:31:40,860
again at the end we'll see there's got to be a time the tides got to turn at some point yeah

1006
01:31:41,500 --> 01:31:44,460
yeah there's only so long we can sing three lines before we actually win

1007
01:31:48,620 --> 01:31:53,020
that's what I'm staying alive for see them win a trophy there we go but you can't win then otherwise

1008
01:31:53,020 --> 01:31:58,860
you're going to drop there we can't have that all right well then the very last question firstly

1009
01:31:58,860 --> 01:32:03,180
the book where can people find again I'll sit read it one more time every day is about all fighting

1010
01:32:03,180 --> 01:32:11,100
demons jihadis and terminal cancer it's on amazon brilliant yeah it's on amazon and then your

1011
01:32:11,100 --> 01:32:17,100
your name is rian uh is it is it is that how you pronounce the last yeah okay so okay so everyone

1012
01:32:17,100 --> 01:32:24,620
there is r i a n i l e t t yeah and then I've got an instagram account it's just more personal

1013
01:32:24,620 --> 01:32:32,700
that's got the link to my book on it and it's twiggy 1664 all right I gotta ask why twiggy

1014
01:32:33,820 --> 01:32:40,780
because when I passed the commando tests to become a royal marine I was actually under the required

1015
01:32:40,780 --> 01:32:44,860
weight to join the royal marines because of how much weight I'd lost in training because my last

1016
01:32:44,860 --> 01:32:53,340
name was ailer I got nicknamed twiglet remember them like um delicious the marmite uh little stick

1017
01:32:53,340 --> 01:33:01,340
things I loved them yeah so it just went from twiglet to twiggy brilliant well rian I want to

1018
01:33:01,340 --> 01:33:06,860
say thank you so much it's been such an incredible conversation such a uplifting conversation

1019
01:33:06,860 --> 01:33:11,580
because I mean you know aside from all the combat and the other stuff you talked about

1020
01:33:11,580 --> 01:33:17,980
you know to get that kind of diagnosis when you're still so young and then it's evident you know in

1021
01:33:17,980 --> 01:33:23,420
this conversation that how much mindset played into it how much that belief and that determination

1022
01:33:23,420 --> 01:33:29,660
that same grit that you got on the battlefield you know factored into to where you are today so

1023
01:33:29,660 --> 01:33:33,020
I want to thank you so so much for being so generous with your time and coming on

1024
01:33:33,020 --> 01:33:47,980
the behind the shield podcast today thank you so much for having me