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This episode is brought to you by Vibe Infusion.

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Now as you guys know, I made a promise

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to only bring sponsors on this show

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whose products I truly like and believe in.

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And these guys have created a bar

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that I think is very pertinent in our professions.

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I know personally, when I've been running

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call after call after call,

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I start reaching for whatever I can get

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when it comes to snacks.

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So if we're in the EMS part of an ER,

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whatever sugary snacks they've got is what I'm gonna grab,

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throw down my throat before we start running another call.

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So these guys have created a series of bars

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and they are extremely nutritious.

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It's all clean ingredients.

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And the goal is to not only give us a nourishing snack

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versus some sugary one that's gonna spike our blood sugar,

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but also have an influence on our mood.

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So the very first one they've created is Vibe Energy.

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It's got 14 grams of plant-based pea protein.

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It's dairy-free, soy-free, gluten-free,

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keto and paleo-friendly,

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but it also has 100 milligrams of caffeine.

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So about one and a half shots of espresso,

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the equivalent of.

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And so it's a great bar pre-workout.

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It's a great bar if you're earlier in your shift

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and you wanna maintain that energy.

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What they have coming out is kind of the opposite.

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So they have the Vibe Infusion Calm bar.

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So that's gonna have ingredients that deregulate,

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that kind of wind you down.

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So if you're looking to try and get some sleep,

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whether it's a nap,

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whether it's the end of your 12-hour shift,

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whatever it is, that's another snack.

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If you feel yourself full of sugars,

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you're gonna spike everything up again.

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Whereas the Calm bar is gonna deregulate.

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So I'm all about common sense and application.

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And I think that this has a great application for us.

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If we have these sitting in our cab, in our car,

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for us to reach for,

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it's gonna be far more beneficial for our health

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than a Snickers or pretzels or whatever it is

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that we normally eat.

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So on top of that,

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this company truly wants to help our community.

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So they're gonna do two things.

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Firstly, if you use the code behind the shield,

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all one word, behind the shield,

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you're gonna get 10% off a box of these bars.

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On top of that, if you use that code,

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they're gonna donate $2 from each box sold

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to 555 Fitness.

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And if you're not sure who they are,

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555 are the guys and girls that are raising money

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and then donating fitness equipment

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to departments that need it.

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So they create a scholarship, people apply,

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and they get sandbags and kettlebells

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and whatever it is that they need.

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So not only are you gonna get a discount

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on a healthier version of a snack,

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one that can also, like I said,

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give you energy, calm you down.

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They're also gonna make a difference

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in our community that way as well.

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So to find these bars, go to vibeinfusion.com.

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V-I-B-E-I-N-F-U-S-I-O-N.com.

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And as I said before, use the code behind the shield,

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no spaces, all one word, to get 10% off

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and donate $2 to 555 Fitness.

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I've tried them myself, they're delicious.

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My wife's tried them, she concurred as well.

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She did say that she wanted to do half a bar next time.

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That is a little warning they put on.

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If you're not used to caffeine,

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it will definitely give you that energy.

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So if you've had coffee before

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or if you're not used to caffeine, half a bar is enough.

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And then I'm looking forward to the calm bar coming out,

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which will be a couple of weeks from this recording now.

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So one more time, vibeinfusion.com.

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Use the code behind the shield

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and buy yourself something that's gonna nourish

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instead of hurt your body every time you snack.

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Welcome guys to episode 194 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name's James Gearing.

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And this week, I am extremely excited

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to bring to you Jay Dobbins.

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Now Jay was the ATF agent who went undercover

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and infiltrated the Hell's Angels for almost two years.

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And we discussed that part of his life.

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He's written two fantastic books

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that I highly suggest you guys read.

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No Angel talks about his operations there.

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And then Catching Hell is a broader view

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of his career within the ATF.

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And what's sad really is he gave so much to his career.

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He adores his career, he adores many of his peers.

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But there were people in the infrastructure

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of where he worked that made it incredibly hard,

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even worked against him.

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He was left completely vulnerable after these operations

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when there were death threats against him and his family

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that were enacted as well.

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His house was burned down

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and really abandoned by some of these people.

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So a very interesting look at the ownership

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that someone can have and then still be failed

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by the wrong people being in very, very vital areas

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in an infrastructure of a business

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or a fire department or a police department.

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So something very relatable.

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And the other thing that really blew me away about him

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was his compassion.

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Even though he was surrounded

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by some very, very horrendous people,

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you will hear some of the compassion that he showed.

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And even now, so a very powerful story.

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I know you guys are gonna really enjoy this.

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As I always say before we start the episode,

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whichever podcast app that you're listening to,

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listening to this through, please go to that.

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Make sure you subscribe to the podcast

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and then rate the show.

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Leave a five star review if you think it's worth it

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and leave some feedback.

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I love reading the feedback.

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And then most importantly, after you hear this,

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you're gonna think, wow, other people need to hear this.

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So use social media for good and share this episode

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and the other episodes and enable the people

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that need to hear it to actually be exposed to it

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and hear it as well.

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So with that being said, introduce to you Jay Dobbins.

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Enjoy.

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["Dreams of a New World"]

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So Jay, I wanna start by saying thank you so much

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for agreeing to come on the podcast.

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Thank you, thanks for having me

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and hello to your audience.

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Thank you and I'll say thanks again to Bethann

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for connecting us, I appreciate that.

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The first question and because of the nature of who you are,

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I don't have to be specific,

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but where are we finding you on planet earth today?

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I live in Arizona.

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This is home, I went to high school and college out here

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and have been in and out of Arizona over the years,

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professionally with my career, but this is where I live.

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So yeah, I love it here.

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Beautiful, all right, so I wanna start

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at the very beginning.

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So if you wouldn't mind, just give me an overview

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of what your mom and dad did and if you had any siblings.

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Yeah, I grew up in a very white bread middle-class family.

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I've got a younger sister and a younger brother.

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My mom and dad got along very well

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and remained married until my dad passed,

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50 plus years of marriage.

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My mom's still around, she's got a ton of energy.

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And she's a walking tornado at 80 years old.

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And I grew up in a middle-class,

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average, all-American household.

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My father was a carpenter, he pounded nails for.

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My mom was a house cleaner.

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My mom scrubbed people's toilets for a living

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that didn't wanna scrub their own toilets.

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I grew up in a very blue class,

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work first, play second family.

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That's how I was molded.

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Right, now we're gonna talk about,

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I'd love to hear the story about the fight

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in your front yard in a moment, but your dad himself,

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what had developed the strength in him

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that then he was able to mentor onto you?

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My dad grew up without a father in his life.

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And I think that he was one of the guys

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who took an unfortunate event like that from his childhood

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and didn't want it repeated with his kids.

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And he was very involved in all of us,

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in all of his kids, in our lives,

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in being an active, both my parents,

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active participants in everything we were doing,

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from school to sports to social events to everything.

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My folks were always very interested and enthusiastic

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and supportive of whatever that we were doing

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as long as we were moving forward on a good path.

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Beautiful.

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So just as an observation for a moment,

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while we're in the whole parenting conversation,

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you have got to see an array of criminal element,

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if you like, from all races,

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all the whole spectrum of races.

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Were there any common denominators that you saw

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if you were able to even hear some of the backstories

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of some of these men and women

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that you think were contributing factors to them

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finding themselves down that road instead of,

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for example, law enforcement

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or something that's contributing to the society?

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You know, to be honest, from my experience,

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I don't know that there is a common denominator

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because I cross paths with people

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who were suspects of investigations

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who were from broken homes

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and rough upbringings,

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all the way up to people who had affluent lifestyles

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and had everything placed in front of them

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that you would think would lead to success.

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So I think it comes down to personal choices,

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like for all of us, for all of us,

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in everyday life, everything we do.

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Every day we're confronted with free will

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and personal choices and what path do we take?

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Yeah, and I agree 100%.

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I mean, definitely some of these upbringings

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set some people up for failure,

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but absolutely, the end of the day, there's ownership.

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And I've had people on here that have been,

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I mean, their life story even makes yours

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seem like a Disney movie,

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like some boy soldiers in Sierra Leone

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and all kinds of people.

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No doubt.

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And they came out incredibly well at the end of it.

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No doubt.

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I think those are the stories that we as common men

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like love and embrace the stories of people

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who thrive and achieve and succeed

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when every single element of their life

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is standing in the way of that.

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And they somehow find a way to become amazing

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and do incredible things.

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Those are the stories that inspire us.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Well, and I wanna go to that fight

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because I know it was kind of an anchor point in your life,

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but when I was reading it, obviously,

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you're in the middle of a fist fight

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in the front lawn of your house.

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But what you didn't talk about in the book

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was how that came about

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and why that kid was beating up a seven-year-old.

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You know what?

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I don't know necessarily,

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I don't know though that I recall the backstory

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other than I was pretty much a sissy when I was a kid.

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And I was probably an easy mark.

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I was probably someone who a bully type

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was I was easy to take advantage of.

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I wasn't interested in fighting back.

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I wasn't interested in resisting.

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And that is typical of the bully predator mentality

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is there's people as kids and as adults

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who somehow make themselves feel bigger and stronger

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by making someone else feel smaller and weaker.

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It's part of society, it's part of humanity.

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Yeah, and that parallel is obviously

263
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:11,640
with the physical side

264
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,440
and obviously the criminal element that you looked at,

265
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,440
but also within the infrastructure of society

266
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,040
and the agencies that you work for as well.

267
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,040
Yeah, I think that it's probably an element of human nature.

268
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,000
It's probably part of any individuals

269
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,700
or a certain individual's character

270
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,520
that there's people out there in the world

271
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,320
who use their position, use their influence,

272
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:41,200
use their wisdom to elevate people and to inspire people.

273
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,920
There's also people out there

274
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,720
that use it with a predator mentality

275
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,800
that try to take advantage of people

276
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,880
and hold people down and hold them back.

277
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,920
So when you were lying there

278
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,200
and you'd been attacked by this kid,

279
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,960
if you wouldn't mind just kind of telling people

280
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,480
out there listening the rest of the story

281
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,120
and how powerful that was then for you moving forward.

282
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,840
Sure, I was probably an eight-year-old kid.

283
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,700
I was just, I was soft.

284
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:14,700
I was a sissy and I was getting the crap beat out of me

285
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:17,380
in the front yard of my house.

286
00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:19,380
And I wasn't fighting back.

287
00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:20,620
I was being overpowered

288
00:13:20,620 --> 00:13:23,600
and I actually wasn't probably trying to resist very hard.

289
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,020
I was playing possum thinking like,

290
00:13:26,020 --> 00:13:31,020
if maybe if I just give up, this beating will stop.

291
00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:35,420
And what I didn't know is that my dad was watching

292
00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:38,740
this fight take place from inside our house.

293
00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:42,300
And I heard the door open

294
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,340
and I thought my savior had arrived.

295
00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:47,540
I thought my dad was coming out to put an end

296
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:50,140
to this beating and chase this bully off.

297
00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:55,020
And instead what he did is he told the bully,

298
00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:59,460
the bully saw my dad and started to get up off me.

299
00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:02,260
And my dad said, no, stay on him.

300
00:14:02,260 --> 00:14:04,580
Like keep hitting him.

301
00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:07,900
And I was like, oh my God, like this is my dad.

302
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:08,980
This is my hero.

303
00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:10,840
This is my idol.

304
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,660
Like, why are you not rescuing me?

305
00:14:13,660 --> 00:14:16,540
And the kid was like kind of giving me

306
00:14:16,540 --> 00:14:19,340
some half-assed punches.

307
00:14:19,340 --> 00:14:20,980
And my dad was egging him on.

308
00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:22,300
My dad was encouraging him.

309
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,100
Like hit him, hit him harder, hit him more.

310
00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:27,900
Hit him like you were hitting him before I came out here.

311
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,320
You know, and this kid's blasting me.

312
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,120
And then at some point just gets up and dashes off.

313
00:14:33,980 --> 00:14:36,820
And my dad came over and picked me up

314
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:39,380
and you know, my nose was bleeding.

315
00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:44,380
And I just had my ass beat in front of my idol.

316
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,060
And I was humiliated.

317
00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:49,380
And my dad picked me up and got me on my feet.

318
00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:53,740
And he was like, you have to learn to fight back

319
00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:54,980
and to resist.

320
00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:58,860
Cause if you don't, you are gonna be a victim

321
00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:00,580
for the rest of your life.

322
00:15:00,580 --> 00:15:02,740
There's always someone out there bigger

323
00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:04,160
and stronger than you.

324
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,180
That doesn't matter.

325
00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:06,940
You have to fight back.

326
00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:11,940
And that lesson, that message from my dad

327
00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:17,500
at that very young age kind of turned me.

328
00:15:17,540 --> 00:15:21,700
It was just that father's wisdom.

329
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,620
And I'm sure it was painful for my dad to do that.

330
00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:28,060
He's a very mild guy.

331
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:29,500
He was a peaceful man.

332
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:31,740
He was very a sweet man.

333
00:15:31,740 --> 00:15:35,740
And he was just a kind person.

334
00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:38,140
But I'm sure he felt like, man,

335
00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:41,580
like I have to use this moment as a teaching lesson

336
00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:44,380
or else my kid is gonna spend his life

337
00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:46,340
getting his ass whipped.

338
00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:47,820
Yeah, and it was such a powerful moment.

339
00:15:47,820 --> 00:15:51,460
I can totally relate to your dad's parenting

340
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:54,380
because you talk about him and you talk about growing up

341
00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:55,520
in a very white neighborhood,

342
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,920
but him being very compassionate and kind

343
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,580
and not embracing the racist philosophy

344
00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:06,340
that some of the people in the town embraced.

345
00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:08,780
And I think it really boils down to that,

346
00:16:08,780 --> 00:16:10,460
don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

347
00:16:10,460 --> 00:16:12,980
And I have the same with my little boy, he does jujitsu.

348
00:16:12,980 --> 00:16:15,660
And I hate watching when he does tournaments

349
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:18,620
and he's getting choked and turned around like a pretzel.

350
00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:20,340
But again, like you said,

351
00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:22,220
it's not only protecting themselves

352
00:16:22,220 --> 00:16:24,760
that one day they might be the one that stops the bully

353
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,000
from hurting someone else or even killing someone else.

354
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,700
Well, I think that like all of us,

355
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:32,100
I'm sure everybody out there listening to this,

356
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:35,680
for a lot of us on a daily basis,

357
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,880
there's some obstacle in your path that wants to stop you,

358
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,400
that wants to beat you down.

359
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,260
And like we have to resist,

360
00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:48,720
we have to fight back against those.

361
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,680
Otherwise someone else is always,

362
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,920
or some circumstance is always dictating

363
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,140
the path of our life.

364
00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:01,280
And so it doesn't end.

365
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,720
It's not just for kids.

366
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,040
It's not just kids being bullied.

367
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,560
It goes all the way through life, through adult life.

368
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,400
And it happens professionally, it happens personally,

369
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,080
it happens in relationships.

370
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,220
It's a nonstop challenge.

371
00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:20,960
And we have to learn and train ourselves

372
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,060
and almost brainwash ourselves

373
00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:26,240
into that warrior mindset mentality

374
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,680
that when something's wrong, when I see something wrong,

375
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,160
when I see something that's not right,

376
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,720
either someone trying to take advantage of me

377
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,600
or someone trying to take advantage of someone else,

378
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,120
I have to do something about it.

379
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:40,960
Yeah, absolutely.

380
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,640
And did that turn your kind of career aspirations early

381
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,840
to be some sort of protector when you got older?

382
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,040
No, well, you know what?

383
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,040
I had always dreamed of being a football player,

384
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:56,440
a professional football player.

385
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,640
I had a nice college career

386
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,640
and that's where I thought my life was going as a young man.

387
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,360
As it turned out, I wasn't good enough.

388
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,160
I did everything I could to prepare myself

389
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:18,160
and I just was not good enough to be competitive,

390
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,820
to make a living professionally playing football.

391
00:18:22,820 --> 00:18:24,580
And when it boils down to it,

392
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:29,400
like when I look at my career, my sports career,

393
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,380
my professional career, my life,

394
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:36,520
probably the only thing that I was ever really good at

395
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,520
in my life and the only thing was standing up to bullies,

396
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,660
which probably goes back to that beating

397
00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:46,560
in my front yard as a kid.

398
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,020
And I don't even know that I was necessarily good at it.

399
00:18:50,020 --> 00:18:52,860
I was just willing to, I was willing to try.

400
00:18:52,860 --> 00:18:55,220
Yeah, and then that was what you were known for

401
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:56,060
on the football field too.

402
00:18:56,060 --> 00:18:58,260
It wasn't so much like the physical prowess,

403
00:18:58,260 --> 00:18:59,460
but more the toughness.

404
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:05,700
Yeah, I think that the fans of the teams I played on,

405
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:10,220
no one looked at me and said,

406
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:11,740
wow, that's an amazing athlete.

407
00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:14,140
That's an exceptional football player right there.

408
00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:19,140
I think what they saw and admired in me as an athlete was,

409
00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:22,460
I played reckless and I played tough

410
00:19:22,460 --> 00:19:26,100
and I tried to play through pain and through injuries.

411
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:30,620
And the common man can relate to that.

412
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:37,420
Like we see it, like in all levels of sports today,

413
00:19:37,420 --> 00:19:41,340
as sports fans, you see people that are just

414
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:43,980
physically blessed and gifted

415
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:46,340
and have amazing physical talents.

416
00:19:46,340 --> 00:19:49,620
And we admire those, but personally, I like the guy

417
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:54,620
who's out there who doesn't have all those God given skills

418
00:19:55,860 --> 00:20:00,860
and talents who just fights back hard and grinds

419
00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:06,620
and tries to achieve like more, almost more mentally

420
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:10,500
and emotionally than physically.

421
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:13,700
Yeah, and then you talk about that at the end of your career,

422
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:15,740
like you said, when you weren't a football player,

423
00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:16,820
you said when you weren't good enough,

424
00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:20,980
I thought that was such an interesting conclusion

425
00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:22,060
because a lot of people don't do that.

426
00:20:22,060 --> 00:20:23,020
They make excuses.

427
00:20:23,020 --> 00:20:24,860
Oh, it was because of this that I didn't succeed.

428
00:20:24,860 --> 00:20:27,580
And you realize in your full potential,

429
00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:32,580
you'd come so far, but that was the perimeter

430
00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:35,820
of your ability within that game.

431
00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:38,340
And to just have the maturity to say,

432
00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:41,340
all right, I've got to here, now I need to transition,

433
00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:43,700
I thought was good because there's so many of those

434
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:46,540
could have been out there that blame, are blown out this

435
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:49,420
or ruptured that for the end of their career.

436
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:55,380
I think that that is one of the curses of life

437
00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:01,580
that can creep into our existence is that,

438
00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:06,020
like we don't want to admit failure, like no one wants to.

439
00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:10,100
No one wants to admit that they didn't succeed.

440
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:14,780
And so we have a tendency to protect ourselves

441
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:17,100
by making excuses for failures

442
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:19,740
or blaming someone else for failures.

443
00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:25,780
And I've learned just over time, not to do that.

444
00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:27,820
I don't make excuses.

445
00:21:27,820 --> 00:21:29,180
I don't lay blame.

446
00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:33,300
I try to own my decisions and the things

447
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:35,900
that have happened to me and look at myself.

448
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,340
And if I'm gonna blame somebody, I blame me.

449
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:42,100
If there's an excuse, it's because of something that I did,

450
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:44,140
not pointing a finger at somebody else.

451
00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:49,220
And it's just, when I learned to do that,

452
00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:51,180
it brought a lot of peace to my life

453
00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:55,260
because I wasn't looking for someone else to be responsible

454
00:21:55,260 --> 00:21:57,500
for either my success or my failure.

455
00:21:58,940 --> 00:22:01,300
Absolutely, I wanna really explore that

456
00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:02,900
when we get into the organizational side

457
00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:07,380
because it is such a double edged sword.

458
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:08,980
Like there's a certain amount of ownership

459
00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:11,260
that you can have, but then you can also be an environment

460
00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:14,620
where no matter how much you own your own path,

461
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:17,660
there's roadblocks everywhere that force you to,

462
00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:19,940
have to remove yourself from that environment.

463
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:23,740
All right, well then with the football,

464
00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:24,820
you talked about concussions.

465
00:22:24,820 --> 00:22:27,020
What were the kind of after effects of that?

466
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:33,100
Well, at the time, when I was involved in football,

467
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:38,100
this was, when I was at my peak was in the early eighties,

468
00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:42,820
mid eighties, all the attention on concussions

469
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:45,500
and the concussion protocol that's out there

470
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:46,620
on all levels of sports.

471
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:48,620
I coach high school football now.

472
00:22:48,620 --> 00:22:52,340
We are very, very concerned, even on the youth level,

473
00:22:52,340 --> 00:22:56,220
on the high school level about taking care

474
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:59,180
of our athletes, of our kids' brains.

475
00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:04,180
In the early eighties, there wasn't that attention on it.

476
00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:09,180
If you got knocked out and if you didn't come back,

477
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,060
you were considered soft.

478
00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:16,340
You, like now there's guys who literally get knocked out.

479
00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:17,940
They wanna come back.

480
00:23:17,940 --> 00:23:20,340
Doctors and trainers won't let them

481
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:24,100
because they know that that bruise

482
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:26,740
that's occurred on your brain,

483
00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:29,340
needs to heal, it needs time.

484
00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:32,060
It has long-term effects.

485
00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:36,100
At the time I was playing the game,

486
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,460
man, if you didn't get back up and shake your head

487
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:42,500
and get back in it, man, you were, you know,

488
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:45,260
you were someone who couldn't be counted on.

489
00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:47,660
And I never, I never wanted that.

490
00:23:47,660 --> 00:23:52,660
You know, my dad, as an athlete, my dad told me again,

491
00:23:52,660 --> 00:23:54,380
like another lesson from my dad,

492
00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:57,180
he told me, you know what the worst four-letter word

493
00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:58,940
someone can say to you is?

494
00:23:58,940 --> 00:24:02,940
What's the worst four-letter word someone can call you?

495
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:06,420
And I'm thinking, and it's like, and it's not a swear word.

496
00:24:06,420 --> 00:24:11,420
It's soft, S-O-F-T, never let someone say you're soft.

497
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:18,300
And that was part of the brainwashing for me as a kid

498
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:19,900
that was like, man, I'm never gonna let anybody

499
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,020
call me soft, you might knock me out,

500
00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:25,460
you might knock me down, you might knock my head off,

501
00:24:25,460 --> 00:24:27,620
but I'll be damned if I'm gonna lay here

502
00:24:27,620 --> 00:24:29,220
and let you celebrate over me.

503
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:31,820
I'm gonna get back up and show you

504
00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:34,620
that I'm tougher than you think I am.

505
00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:37,380
Yeah, and that's the same thing that happened

506
00:24:37,380 --> 00:24:39,660
in the fire service when we first had the SCBAs,

507
00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:42,060
the air tanks that we have on our back.

508
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:44,140
There was that mentality of if you use that,

509
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:45,420
you're being a pussy.

510
00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:48,180
And then fast forward to all the cancer awareness

511
00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:49,820
and they're like, okay, now we get it.

512
00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:52,900
And now obviously it's a standard, but there were so many

513
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,980
kind of mythologies from when we were younger

514
00:24:55,980 --> 00:24:59,460
and the generation before that of what a man was.

515
00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:01,260
I think even some of them come from Hollywood

516
00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:02,700
and I've talked about this before.

517
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:06,220
And now we're realizing, like PTSD is a perfect example.

518
00:25:06,220 --> 00:25:08,820
Like, no, it's okay for a man that's seen some horrible shit

519
00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:10,980
to actually hold his hand up and say,

520
00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:13,980
I'm hurting right now and this is really bothering me.

521
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:17,060
I think it's the evolution and the education

522
00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:18,660
and understanding of what it is

523
00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:21,940
and education and understanding like in all walks of life,

524
00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:25,780
like for your audience out there that's hockey fans.

525
00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:29,900
Not all that long ago, like within my lifetime

526
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:34,820
of watching sports, there was a time when hockey players

527
00:25:34,820 --> 00:25:36,660
did not wear headgear.

528
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:40,580
They didn't like, they didn't wear any head protection.

529
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:45,460
And it ultimately became mandated that you had to.

530
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:50,460
And there were guys, like old school hockey players

531
00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:56,260
who thought like putting a helmet on to play hockey

532
00:25:56,260 --> 00:26:01,260
where you've got a hard disc heading towards your head

533
00:26:02,180 --> 00:26:04,580
at a hundred miles an hour, like actually protecting

534
00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:06,740
your head with a helmet made you a pussy.

535
00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:12,020
That's just the evolution and education and wisdom

536
00:26:12,020 --> 00:26:13,740
of time and understanding.

537
00:26:13,740 --> 00:26:14,820
Yeah, absolutely.

538
00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:16,260
I couldn't agree more.

539
00:26:16,860 --> 00:26:19,860
Well then let's transition to you left football

540
00:26:19,860 --> 00:26:22,260
and then obviously you had to work out what was next.

541
00:26:22,260 --> 00:26:23,580
So how did you find ATF?

542
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:30,500
You know, it's kind of a, it's almost ridiculous sometimes

543
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:32,820
in how this came about.

544
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,460
When my football career ended, my dreams changed.

545
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:41,220
I didn't really have a plan B.

546
00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:46,220
And at the time the television show Miami Vice

547
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:47,900
was very popular.

548
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,300
This is mid eighties.

549
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:55,300
And I saw Sonny Crockett, like wearing a Hugo Boss suit

550
00:26:55,580 --> 00:26:58,180
and driving a Lamborghini around South Beach

551
00:26:58,180 --> 00:27:01,500
and meeting with some drug kingpin.

552
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:06,500
And I saw the glamor of it and the sexiness of it.

553
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,860
big fan of this show.

554
00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:08,660
I'm gonna be a big fan of this show.

555
00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:11,420
I'm gonna be a big fan of it.

556
00:27:11,420 --> 00:27:13,940
And I thought like, man, I can do that.

557
00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:16,180
You know, I knew what I didn't wanna do.

558
00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:18,060
I was never a money guy.

559
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:22,180
I was never like, that was never a part of my life.

560
00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:24,700
I never was interested in chasing money

561
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:26,380
or chasing the dollar.

562
00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:30,020
I wanted to do something and I advised this

563
00:27:30,020 --> 00:27:32,140
to my own kids, to the kids I coach,

564
00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:33,980
to the kids I speak to.

565
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:36,980
When you make a choice for yourself professionally,

566
00:27:36,980 --> 00:27:41,980
be motivated by the salary, be motivated by the ideal

567
00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:45,140
that when your alarm clock goes off in the morning

568
00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:48,780
and when you have to get up and put your feet on the ground,

569
00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:51,940
go do something that you love.

570
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:55,340
Go do something that if they would let you do it,

571
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:56,900
you would do it for free.

572
00:27:57,820 --> 00:28:00,740
If you can find that, if you can figure out

573
00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:03,800
whatever that is in your life, man, you know,

574
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,500
we spend so much time at work.

575
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:09,540
We spend the bulk of our lives, you know,

576
00:28:09,540 --> 00:28:13,340
definitely the vast majority of our adult lives

577
00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:14,740
going to a job.

578
00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:18,500
Like find something that you have a passion for,

579
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:20,180
find something that you love.

580
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:25,860
And if you can figure out a way to make money doing that,

581
00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:30,860
pay your bills, support your lifestyle, that's great.

582
00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:34,940
If you can make a ton of money doing it and you love it,

583
00:28:34,940 --> 00:28:36,500
that's even better.

584
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:40,980
But don't let the dollar bill motivate your decisions.

585
00:28:40,980 --> 00:28:45,980
Find something that you have an undying passion for

586
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,300
and then let that be your life.

587
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:51,020
Let that be what you stand for.

588
00:28:52,340 --> 00:28:53,180
Absolutely.

589
00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:55,620
So when you first entered the profession,

590
00:28:55,620 --> 00:28:59,940
did you get a Lamborghini and a nice white suit to go with?

591
00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:01,380
Oh my goodness, you know what?

592
00:29:01,380 --> 00:29:04,020
And I'll tell you that's the backside of that story, right?

593
00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:09,020
So I was, I let Hollywood brainwash me

594
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:12,900
into what I think, what I thought the job was.

595
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:17,620
The reality is the Hugo Boss suit was a pair

596
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:21,100
of cutoff camos and a white beater t-shirt and flip flops.

597
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:25,540
The Lamborghini was an 82 Malibu that was on the fritz.

598
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:28,260
You know, the big mansion where the drug deals

599
00:29:28,260 --> 00:29:31,920
were going down was a single wide trailer

600
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,280
that was half tilted off the blocks.

601
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:40,420
The Kingpin, the glamorous, handsome Kingpin

602
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:44,860
in the movies and on television was some guy, you know,

603
00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:47,380
sitting at the corner of a condemned bar

604
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:49,740
with his plumber's crack hanging out

605
00:29:49,740 --> 00:29:52,460
and didn't have two nickels to rub together

606
00:29:53,380 --> 00:29:55,080
to buy his next beer.

607
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,860
And that ton of dope that I saw on television

608
00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:01,700
that was sitting on some barge out in Miami Harbor,

609
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:03,180
you know, it was an eight ball of cocaine

610
00:30:03,180 --> 00:30:05,380
that was so stepped on with baby laxative,

611
00:30:05,380 --> 00:30:07,580
you'd shit before you'd get high off of it.

612
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:12,300
It was something exact opposite.

613
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:16,340
The reality of it is was exactly the opposite

614
00:30:16,340 --> 00:30:20,100
of what Hollywood led me to believe.

615
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:24,340
But when I saw what it really was, I loved it.

616
00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:25,340
I loved it.

617
00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:26,620
It didn't discourage me.

618
00:30:26,620 --> 00:30:29,220
I wasn't, I didn't think like,

619
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:31,520
hey, this isn't what I signed on for.

620
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,900
I loved my job.

621
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:38,900
I was excited every day to go see if I could do something

622
00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:43,140
to make some difference in somebody's life.

623
00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:45,980
Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone listening

624
00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:47,300
can relate to that because it's, you know,

625
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:48,960
mainly first responders and military

626
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,380
and people that in the medical industry

627
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:54,220
that are trying to do the same thing themselves.

628
00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:56,840
And like you said, that's what wakes you up every day,

629
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,080
but it's funny again how that intersects

630
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,660
with the whole Hollywood thing.

631
00:31:00,660 --> 00:31:03,820
And we really are fed some fallacies

632
00:31:03,820 --> 00:31:05,020
and with the fire service, you know,

633
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:08,060
you take Bagdra for example,

634
00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:10,580
they don't mention the 3 a.m. tummy aches

635
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:13,500
that you run on 20 times for every one fire call

636
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:14,340
that you might get.

637
00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:15,900
But again, you know, when you're out there

638
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:19,160
and you're actually doing something good in the community,

639
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,080
the good calls offset the bullshit of the job.

640
00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:26,380
Well, I think that for any first responder out there,

641
00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:28,780
for the military audience, for the fire audience,

642
00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:30,100
for the law enforcement audience,

643
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:31,940
people in corrections, all those things,

644
00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:36,940
like for me personally, I took a great sense of pride

645
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:42,500
in knowing that my agency had awarded me a badge and a gun

646
00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:48,580
and sent me out to try to make a difference.

647
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,500
But even more importantly is, and for all of us

648
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:54,780
in that universe of public service,

649
00:31:54,780 --> 00:31:58,020
and it goes to doctors and nurses and school teachers

650
00:31:58,020 --> 00:32:03,020
and all those things, is that I took a great sense of pride

651
00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:11,340
in being put in a position to stand up to the predators

652
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,300
in the community and the thieves and the people

653
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:20,820
that had wicked mindsets in the community

654
00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:24,020
on behalf of the good and innocent people out there

655
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:28,320
who simply wanted to live a safe and peaceful life,

656
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,320
but simply couldn't or wouldn't take care of themselves.

657
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,300
You know, they ask us, our communities ask us

658
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:42,540
as first responders, take care of us, keep us safe,

659
00:32:42,540 --> 00:32:44,220
keep our families safe.

660
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:46,460
We can't do it on our own.

661
00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:48,100
We need your help.

662
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:55,100
I was always hugely honored by that.

663
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:59,180
Well, speaking of that, you just entered this world

664
00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:00,860
and obviously you got into the undercover.

665
00:33:00,860 --> 00:33:02,220
What I'm really curious about,

666
00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:07,220
I didn't find this explored that much in the book

667
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:09,460
because obviously your story is just incredible

668
00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:13,020
and all the different incidents that you responded to

669
00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:16,140
and the operations that you were involved with,

670
00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:19,060
but how did you deal with the fear?

671
00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:21,140
Because obviously a lot of the men and women

672
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:23,860
that I work alongside, they're like me.

673
00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:25,780
Some sort of radio signal goes off,

674
00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:28,420
we're told to go to address and then they deal with

675
00:33:28,420 --> 00:33:31,100
whatever they face with, but the undercover side

676
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,320
obviously is a whole different animal.

677
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,860
So to come from a collegiate football player

678
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:40,060
into the world of law enforcement,

679
00:33:40,060 --> 00:33:44,700
what was your kind of self-talk to be able to get into that?

680
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:47,460
At that point, you'd be able to do the undercover stuff.

681
00:33:49,180 --> 00:33:54,180
Well, you know, when, like I developed my experience

682
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:56,820
and expertise over time.

683
00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:01,320
I had, over the 27 years that I was a federal agent,

684
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,940
I participated in well over 500 undercover operations,

685
00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:10,940
some less dramatic than others,

686
00:34:10,940 --> 00:34:15,940
some more risky than others, but for me,

687
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:21,180
you know, I don't know that I ever overcame the fear.

688
00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:26,180
I think that we wanna push forward

689
00:34:27,180 --> 00:34:31,180
that mindset that we're fearless.

690
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,380
And I think you can go into perilous situations

691
00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:41,380
and go in aggressively and with a survivor's mindset

692
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:45,460
and still have some fear in you.

693
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:46,780
It's human nature.

694
00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:51,780
I think when fear is completely absent,

695
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,840
it probably affects your risk assessment.

696
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,960
It affects your ability to process situational awareness.

697
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,200
I did get to a point in my career

698
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,620
where I was like that.

699
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:10,140
And I don't know if it was necessarily fearlessness.

700
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:12,460
I think it became recklessness

701
00:35:13,580 --> 00:35:16,660
and any of us in our professions.

702
00:35:16,660 --> 00:35:21,100
When we get to that point, we become dangerous,

703
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:23,380
not only to ourselves, but to the people around us

704
00:35:23,380 --> 00:35:24,580
that we're working with.

705
00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:28,140
Yeah, I mean, that complacency,

706
00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:29,380
like you said, the overconfidence

707
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:32,500
or even the lack of caring is something

708
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:35,540
that a lot of us see later in our careers.

709
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:39,060
And I'm sure part of it is actually the effects of the job

710
00:35:39,060 --> 00:35:41,780
and the work hours and the shifts and the sleep

711
00:35:41,780 --> 00:35:42,940
and everything else.

712
00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:47,940
But I think the constant reminder of our mortality

713
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:51,200
starts to go away because the further into your career

714
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,100
you get, if something hasn't happened,

715
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:54,900
the less of a reality that becomes

716
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,460
versus the wide-eyed first guy on the job

717
00:35:57,460 --> 00:36:01,420
that sees all the potential things that could go wrong.

718
00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:03,900
Well, there was a point in my career

719
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:06,780
where I had been shot a couple of times.

720
00:36:06,780 --> 00:36:11,420
I had seen all kinds of nastiness out in the world

721
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:17,420
and it had maybe jaded my personality.

722
00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:22,180
It had altered my DNA to some extent

723
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:27,180
where into my own error,

724
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:31,220
like my ego and maybe chasing what I believe

725
00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:35,220
to be some false legacy, some hero syndrome

726
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:39,900
started affecting the decisions I was making.

727
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,220
And I became dangerous.

728
00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:45,020
I became dangerous to myself

729
00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:48,420
and I was putting myself in situations that

730
00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:50,960
or allowing myself to be a part of situations

731
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,960
that I could have stepped away from, that I didn't.

732
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,960
And when I look back at those now,

733
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,920
it's actually, it's pretty embarrassing.

734
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,400
It's humiliating at times because it's one thing

735
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,920
if I make a decision and I don't care for myself

736
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,780
and I end up in a body bag because I made bad choices.

737
00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:18,320
That's one thing.

738
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,800
It's another thing when I'm making those choices

739
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,300
and then I'm endangering the people that I work with

740
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,120
and the people that are supporting me

741
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,240
and that the people that are there with me.

742
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,400
When I'm making decisions that also put them at risk

743
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,800
for personal reasons, for ego reasons

744
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,800
or for legacy reasons, man, that's like, you can't do that.

745
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,680
You can't do that in our profession

746
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,720
because those people that were there supporting me

747
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:49,260
and helping me, they had wives and husbands and kids

748
00:37:49,260 --> 00:37:51,360
and mothers and fathers and friends

749
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,080
that they wanted to go home and see it.

750
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,680
And I got to a point in my career

751
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,020
where I was making decisions

752
00:37:58,020 --> 00:38:00,680
that was never crossing my mind.

753
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,040
It was never crossing my mind

754
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,720
that someone was gonna have to come in

755
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:07,600
and save me or rescue me from some situation

756
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,280
that I allowed myself to get into based on a bad decision.

757
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,360
And the after effects on them or the potential risk to them

758
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,080
were not part of my decision-making process.

759
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,640
And that's an embarrassing statement to make about yourself

760
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,640
as a first responder.

761
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,680
Yeah, and that's a very real thing for us

762
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,840
because that's again, that complacency

763
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,000
ties in with the training.

764
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,700
So, we get people that walk through a door

765
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:37,400
and they're fired up and they're ready to go.

766
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,700
And then you get 10 years into your career or even deeper,

767
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:43,360
there is that side where they're like,

768
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,820
well, I know the job, what's the worst that's gonna happen?

769
00:38:46,820 --> 00:38:47,920
But you're absolutely right.

770
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,400
If you're a lone responder

771
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,880
and the only person that's gonna get hurt is you,

772
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,200
then that's your choice to make then.

773
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,440
But that's not the case,

774
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,040
whether you're in law enforcement or fire

775
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,600
or whatever branch you're in,

776
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,000
your failure is then gonna have a domino effect

777
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,440
for all the people around you.

778
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,080
Well, exactly.

779
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,080
And that was, and there's been several errors

780
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,240
and flaws in my personality that in hindsight

781
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:20,240
that I'm not at all proud of.

782
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:25,240
But there's, like I got to the point,

783
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,560
like every day I brainwashed myself to think,

784
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,080
to believe that I was the baddest cat on the streets.

785
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,420
Like I was bulletproof and I was invincible.

786
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:39,760
And I felt like I needed to do that

787
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,020
to thrive and succeed and achieve professionally.

788
00:39:44,020 --> 00:39:47,060
And there's probably some truth to that,

789
00:39:47,060 --> 00:39:51,760
but there's always someone bigger and stronger out there.

790
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,480
And it doesn't even have to be necessarily

791
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,440
someone bigger and stronger.

792
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,920
In law enforcement, you can take some strung out junkie,

793
00:40:01,740 --> 00:40:05,540
but you put a gun in that guy's hand

794
00:40:05,540 --> 00:40:08,320
and man, that's the great equalizer.

795
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,320
That takes someone who you could physically dominate

796
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,020
and it levels the playing field.

797
00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:19,020
And I had lost sight of all that.

798
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,920
Yeah, well, another thing that really strikes me

799
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,600
in the book, just to go earlier in your career again,

800
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,920
was the compassion side.

801
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,920
So you had a altercation with a group,

802
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,280
one of them was Kevin Hatton,

803
00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:41,560
who tried to run you over, tried to shoot you.

804
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,360
And then in the hospital,

805
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,760
you guys are in the ER at the same time.

806
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,920
And you're basically wheeled up together.

807
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,920
And the way you describe it is that you had empathy for him.

808
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,720
So where did that come from after this guy

809
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,720
tried to literally slaughter you in the streets?

810
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,900
Well, that's a good question.

811
00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:06,800
And I don't know that I necessarily have

812
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,080
a great answer for it other than, here I am.

813
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,780
I was just in this gunfight with this gangster

814
00:41:14,780 --> 00:41:18,500
over a machine gun deal.

815
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:22,780
And I'm looking at this kid and the fear in his eyes

816
00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:24,560
as a 17 year old kid.

817
00:41:25,420 --> 00:41:27,500
And I was thinking like, man, you know what?

818
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:29,320
This kid, he's a baby.

819
00:41:30,420 --> 00:41:34,340
And he just made a decision

820
00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:39,100
that is gonna change the trajectory of his life forever.

821
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:44,100
And he made a decision without any real life experience

822
00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:46,280
behind him.

823
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,940
It's one thing in the cop game,

824
00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:55,940
it's one thing when a 50 year old points a gun at you

825
00:41:56,580 --> 00:42:01,580
and the potential after effects of what that means.

826
00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:05,060
When you're 50 years old,

827
00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:09,100
you've been around long enough to know better.

828
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:13,080
When you're 17, I don't know that you even understand

829
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,160
what it means yet.

830
00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:18,780
And I was like, man, this kid's life just changed.

831
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:20,700
He never had a chance.

832
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:22,940
He was living in a ghetto.

833
00:42:22,940 --> 00:42:25,580
He was a member of a gang.

834
00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:29,260
He's never even given himself a chance

835
00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:31,300
to see what he can be yet.

836
00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:35,220
And now that's gonna be taken away forever.

837
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:41,500
And that's something that I've witnessed

838
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:43,300
in the calls that we run on.

839
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:45,940
So you take that same gangbanger, but he's dead.

840
00:42:45,940 --> 00:42:47,460
He's been shot, he's 15.

841
00:42:47,460 --> 00:42:50,640
And he's fought for whatever apartment complex

842
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,580
that he lives in for that year.

843
00:42:52,580 --> 00:42:55,900
And it's just, it's heart wrenching

844
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:57,380
because yes, the decisions they've made,

845
00:42:57,380 --> 00:42:59,820
obviously they're in some sort of gang conflict.

846
00:42:59,820 --> 00:43:02,220
But like you said, could that kid have been a doctor?

847
00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:03,940
Could they have been a police officer?

848
00:43:03,940 --> 00:43:05,900
Could it have been a number of things?

849
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:07,540
And it's heartbreaking to see,

850
00:43:07,540 --> 00:43:09,700
as we said at the beginning of the interview,

851
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,860
that some of these kids were just set up for failure.

852
00:43:12,860 --> 00:43:15,700
And yes, the great ones thrive despite it,

853
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:18,020
but so many of them fall down that trap

854
00:43:18,020 --> 00:43:20,660
and end up either in the situation you described

855
00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:21,900
or in a body bag.

856
00:43:23,180 --> 00:43:26,300
Well, your answer to that previous statement

857
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,680
is yes to all those things.

858
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,940
There's some kid out there who's 15 years old,

859
00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:35,080
who's now dead behind gang violence.

860
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,500
Yes, he could have been a doctor or a lawyer

861
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:44,360
or a great politician or some great leader or a coach

862
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,360
or a teacher or any number of things that could have,

863
00:43:49,420 --> 00:43:53,140
or he could have taken life's experiences and wisdom

864
00:43:53,140 --> 00:43:56,700
and used that to help someone else.

865
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:59,480
And because of those choices,

866
00:44:01,340 --> 00:44:06,340
and a lot of them are based on oftentimes immaturity

867
00:44:06,940 --> 00:44:11,260
and lack of opportunity, we'll never find out.

868
00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:12,340
We'll never find out.

869
00:44:12,340 --> 00:44:14,860
We'll never get to hear what that hero story

870
00:44:14,860 --> 00:44:16,300
could have been for that kid.

871
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,260
Yeah, it's tragic.

872
00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:20,100
It really is.

873
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:22,620
Now, just to go on a tangent, because I'm very curious,

874
00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:25,500
you spent an entire career in ATF.

875
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:29,580
So obviously, around the drugs and the firearms.

876
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:33,020
As an observation from a pure outsider,

877
00:44:33,020 --> 00:44:34,420
I'm a firefighter from England.

878
00:44:34,420 --> 00:44:37,160
I'm not involved in that world at all.

879
00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:42,060
But the common theme obviously seems to be the drugs.

880
00:44:42,060 --> 00:44:45,100
Now, we run on civilians that are overdosing.

881
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,440
We see the crime side that's dealing

882
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,940
and getting killed over drugs.

883
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:52,900
I had a guy from Portugal, his name is João Gulao,

884
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,780
and he was one of the guys that spearheaded them

885
00:44:55,780 --> 00:44:57,860
decriminalizing drug use.

886
00:44:57,860 --> 00:45:02,180
Not selling drugs, not smuggling drugs,

887
00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:04,540
but just the actual addicts themselves.

888
00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:07,420
And they had an incredible change.

889
00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:10,860
They went from the worst drug epidemic in Europe

890
00:45:10,860 --> 00:45:13,220
to the best, like the least.

891
00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:16,340
What is just your perspective, not politically,

892
00:45:16,340 --> 00:45:19,980
but just your philosophy on the way

893
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:24,980
that we have our quote unquote war on drugs at the moment.

894
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:28,020
And if there's maybe some better ways of doing it

895
00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:31,700
to take some of this crime off the streets

896
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:34,020
with the drug problem that we have.

897
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:39,020
Well, so much of our crime is drug-driven crime.

898
00:45:44,940 --> 00:45:48,180
And not just narcotics trafficking,

899
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:50,460
not just cartel business,

900
00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:53,520
but people that are breaking into someone's house

901
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,900
to steal a TV.

902
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:57,740
People that are stealing a car.

903
00:45:57,740 --> 00:46:01,660
People that are snatching a purse off some lady's shoulder

904
00:46:01,660 --> 00:46:02,500
on the street.

905
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:06,900
They're typically not doing that just to do it.

906
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:11,900
They're doing it to acquire money to buy drugs, typically.

907
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:16,900
Typically, not all the time, but typically.

908
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:20,020
And I don't know if I'm staying on point here,

909
00:46:20,020 --> 00:46:22,660
but yes, there's people out there

910
00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:27,660
who make a bad decision at some point in their life

911
00:46:27,740 --> 00:46:29,180
who don't have an evil heart,

912
00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:33,140
who don't have a criminal mentality,

913
00:46:33,140 --> 00:46:38,140
who get caught up in the drug game, in drug use.

914
00:46:38,140 --> 00:46:43,140
And man, those drugs, it's the devil.

915
00:46:43,220 --> 00:46:45,020
It gets a hold of them.

916
00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:50,020
And they don't necessarily have a predator mentality,

917
00:46:50,340 --> 00:46:55,340
but that physical craving for the high

918
00:46:56,180 --> 00:47:00,180
takes them down paths that they oftentimes

919
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:02,740
don't wanna go down and wouldn't go down.

920
00:47:03,740 --> 00:47:06,260
But they've been altered.

921
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:08,300
And so how do we address that?

922
00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:09,140
How do we treat that?

923
00:47:09,140 --> 00:47:14,140
How do we help people that are experiencing that

924
00:47:14,380 --> 00:47:17,980
and not just categorize all of them as criminals

925
00:47:17,980 --> 00:47:20,980
or predators or violent

926
00:47:20,980 --> 00:47:24,060
and help them try to escape that world?

927
00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:29,060
If I had that answer, it would be amazing.

928
00:47:30,860 --> 00:47:31,700
I wish I did.

929
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:32,900
I don't.

930
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:37,900
Yeah, I mean, that model has worked well.

931
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:39,580
And I understand it's not apples to apples.

932
00:47:39,580 --> 00:47:43,340
It's a small country versus our huge country.

933
00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:46,380
But when those addicts in that country, in this model,

934
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:50,380
when those addicts became patients, not criminals,

935
00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:52,780
and they were filtered through a rehab program,

936
00:47:52,780 --> 00:47:56,860
not a justice system, firstly, the shame

937
00:47:56,860 --> 00:47:58,180
and the fear of being arrested

938
00:47:58,180 --> 00:48:01,140
and the shame of being an addict was removed.

939
00:48:01,140 --> 00:48:04,180
But now they also weren't classified as criminals.

940
00:48:04,180 --> 00:48:06,860
They could then gain employment much easier.

941
00:48:06,860 --> 00:48:09,780
So they broke that vicious cycle of addiction,

942
00:48:09,780 --> 00:48:12,580
prison, addiction, prison that we seem to see a lot here.

943
00:48:13,940 --> 00:48:18,020
Yeah, I think if you take someone who is caught up

944
00:48:18,020 --> 00:48:22,540
in drug use, drug consumption,

945
00:48:22,540 --> 00:48:26,340
I don't know that necessarily like locking them in a cage

946
00:48:26,340 --> 00:48:31,340
and thinking that a prison sentence

947
00:48:31,340 --> 00:48:33,460
or a jail sentence is gonna cure that.

948
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:41,500
I think we're learning and seeing that many times it's not.

949
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:45,540
It's not, especially when you're taking people

950
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:49,500
that don't have a violent street mentality

951
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:54,380
and are simply consumed by a bad choice they made

952
00:48:54,380 --> 00:48:58,580
and don't have the resources or the ability

953
00:48:58,580 --> 00:49:01,060
to escape it or address it.

954
00:49:01,060 --> 00:49:03,540
Like how do we help those people?

955
00:49:03,540 --> 00:49:04,380
How do we help those?

956
00:49:04,380 --> 00:49:06,820
There's some people out there that absolutely need

957
00:49:06,820 --> 00:49:11,820
to be locked in a cage, but there's a lot that don't.

958
00:49:11,980 --> 00:49:13,220
There's a lot that don't.

959
00:49:14,580 --> 00:49:17,380
Yeah, another guest I had on the show

960
00:49:17,380 --> 00:49:20,260
was a prison warden from Norway.

961
00:49:20,260 --> 00:49:22,820
And again, this is not the, I forget Anders,

962
00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:25,260
whatever his last name was, the psychopath

963
00:49:25,260 --> 00:49:27,700
that murdered all those poor kids in that summer camp.

964
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:29,140
He's locked away in a cage.

965
00:49:29,140 --> 00:49:31,060
That guy is a complete sociopath.

966
00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:35,260
But they have prison models where there's one,

967
00:49:35,260 --> 00:49:38,100
it's called Bastog, it's on an island just off Oslo.

968
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:40,660
So it's an island, they're still in prison.

969
00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:43,220
But the layout is more like a town.

970
00:49:43,220 --> 00:49:45,140
So the prisoners have to cook for themselves.

971
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:47,380
They clean, they live in houses together.

972
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:49,780
They have the work that they go to.

973
00:49:49,780 --> 00:49:53,980
So there is that kind of rehabilitation side to it

974
00:49:53,980 --> 00:49:56,220
where they're not locked away.

975
00:49:56,220 --> 00:49:57,820
They're actually taught to function.

976
00:49:57,820 --> 00:49:59,540
So one day, cause everyone's gonna get released

977
00:49:59,540 --> 00:50:01,580
at some point, unless they're on death row,

978
00:50:01,580 --> 00:50:03,660
when they move back into a neighborhood,

979
00:50:03,660 --> 00:50:05,380
they have been taught to function.

980
00:50:05,380 --> 00:50:08,460
You know, at least have a much higher ability to function

981
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:11,220
again in society rather than be in that vicious cycle.

982
00:50:12,180 --> 00:50:13,660
Yeah, how do we equip them?

983
00:50:13,660 --> 00:50:17,620
And how do we prepare them for society?

984
00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:21,580
And how do we like restore their self esteem

985
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:26,580
and help them understand that they have a value.

986
00:50:29,220 --> 00:50:31,420
They have value to the world.

987
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:35,700
That, I mean, those are key questions

988
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:37,660
and that they're simple questions to ask.

989
00:50:37,660 --> 00:50:40,260
They're very difficult questions to answer.

990
00:50:42,340 --> 00:50:46,420
I know this from personal experience and just from me,

991
00:50:46,420 --> 00:50:48,700
just from my own life.

992
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:53,460
I've made a million mistakes in my life.

993
00:50:53,460 --> 00:50:56,220
I've had a million errors in judgment

994
00:50:57,860 --> 00:51:00,820
and I've been blessed to have a million

995
00:51:00,820 --> 00:51:02,540
and one second chances.

996
00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:07,540
I think nearly everybody, nearly deserves a second chance.

997
00:51:08,980 --> 00:51:13,220
There are some people who are just so far off the rails

998
00:51:13,220 --> 00:51:16,740
that they probably don't get a second chance.

999
00:51:16,740 --> 00:51:19,300
But pretty much everybody deserves a second chance.

1000
00:51:20,340 --> 00:51:21,180
Yeah, I agree.

1001
00:51:21,180 --> 00:51:23,620
And then also, you know, the religious doctrine

1002
00:51:23,620 --> 00:51:26,460
that a lot of us hold dear to our hearts

1003
00:51:26,460 --> 00:51:28,700
says the same thing, you know?

1004
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:29,700
And I don't think that, you know,

1005
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:32,100
a lot of these prophets that they have in their books

1006
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:34,060
were saying, oh, you know, if you screw up once,

1007
00:51:34,060 --> 00:51:36,980
then that's it, you're done, turn your back.

1008
00:51:36,980 --> 00:51:39,820
Well, and I know like just from personal experience,

1009
00:51:39,820 --> 00:51:43,020
like I've had a million second chances.

1010
00:51:43,020 --> 00:51:45,740
I've made a million mistakes and I've had people in my life

1011
00:51:45,740 --> 00:51:48,660
who've given me another opportunity

1012
00:51:48,660 --> 00:51:50,100
to see if I can fix it.

1013
00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:53,340
So we all need that.

1014
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:55,620
We all need that until that, you know,

1015
00:51:57,220 --> 00:51:59,660
from the Christian perspective, you know,

1016
00:51:59,660 --> 00:52:02,220
there's been one person who's ever had their feet

1017
00:52:02,220 --> 00:52:03,820
on this planet who was perfect.

1018
00:52:03,820 --> 00:52:06,740
Everybody else needs second chances.

1019
00:52:06,740 --> 00:52:08,940
Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more.

1020
00:52:08,940 --> 00:52:10,700
And then you read about the stories

1021
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,220
that take Jesus for a moment, you know?

1022
00:52:13,220 --> 00:52:14,420
He wasn't prejudiced.

1023
00:52:14,420 --> 00:52:17,620
If you read the stories, there was nothing, you know,

1024
00:52:17,620 --> 00:52:18,780
we're all God's children.

1025
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:20,580
He isn't saying, oh, I love all you,

1026
00:52:20,580 --> 00:52:22,860
except that guy over there, he's an asshole.

1027
00:52:22,860 --> 00:52:25,620
You know, it's pretty blatant that it was just pure love

1028
00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:27,020
and kindness and compassion.

1029
00:52:28,260 --> 00:52:29,820
Yeah, and I think just from that perspective,

1030
00:52:29,820 --> 00:52:31,180
from the Christian perspective,

1031
00:52:31,180 --> 00:52:34,580
those were actually the people that Jesus was drawn to,

1032
00:52:34,580 --> 00:52:35,900
were the people that were flawed,

1033
00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:38,020
the people that were making mistakes,

1034
00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:40,860
the people that were troubled.

1035
00:52:40,860 --> 00:52:43,220
He wasn't spending a lot of time trying to fix the people

1036
00:52:43,220 --> 00:52:48,060
that were like perfect and living ideal lives.

1037
00:52:48,060 --> 00:52:50,740
He's trying to save those of us that, like myself,

1038
00:52:50,740 --> 00:52:54,020
who like have made mistakes and were very flawed.

1039
00:52:54,020 --> 00:52:59,020
And, you know, if we as societies

1040
00:52:59,380 --> 00:53:01,260
can embrace that a little more,

1041
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:03,980
all of us will be better off.

1042
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:04,820
Yeah, absolutely.

1043
00:53:04,820 --> 00:53:07,140
And then like you said, there's only one of him.

1044
00:53:07,140 --> 00:53:09,180
So we all have to be part of that.

1045
00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:11,140
And I think a lot of people listening are part of that.

1046
00:53:11,140 --> 00:53:13,420
If you're doing these professions

1047
00:53:13,420 --> 00:53:14,780
and trying to make the world better,

1048
00:53:14,780 --> 00:53:16,060
you are part of the solution.

1049
00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:20,460
But that kind of philosophy needs to be promoted

1050
00:53:20,460 --> 00:53:23,340
and nurtured rather than some of this divisive,

1051
00:53:24,580 --> 00:53:26,220
you know, pigeonholing that we see

1052
00:53:26,220 --> 00:53:28,020
in some elements of society.

1053
00:53:28,940 --> 00:53:32,220
Well, I think, you know, like for anybody

1054
00:53:32,220 --> 00:53:36,220
that is faith-based, whatever your faith is,

1055
00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:41,220
is that, you know, God does not promise any of us

1056
00:53:42,740 --> 00:53:45,820
a safe journey, that through faith,

1057
00:53:45,820 --> 00:53:48,020
he promises us a safe landing.

1058
00:53:48,020 --> 00:53:49,740
And so there's always hope.

1059
00:53:49,740 --> 00:53:51,140
There's always hope.

1060
00:53:51,140 --> 00:53:54,900
And I think that there's people who give up on hope,

1061
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:55,740
and those are the ones

1062
00:53:55,740 --> 00:53:58,140
that we need to wrap our arms around.

1063
00:53:58,140 --> 00:53:58,980
Absolutely.

1064
00:53:58,980 --> 00:53:59,820
Well, speaking of that,

1065
00:53:59,820 --> 00:54:01,860
because I don't want to get you to recount

1066
00:54:01,860 --> 00:54:04,420
your entire stories of, you know,

1067
00:54:04,420 --> 00:54:05,780
Operation Black Biscuit and some of these,

1068
00:54:05,780 --> 00:54:07,100
because you've written incredible books

1069
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:08,980
and you've done some incredible stories

1070
00:54:08,980 --> 00:54:10,580
and documentaries on those.

1071
00:54:10,580 --> 00:54:12,500
But speaking of that,

1072
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:14,940
are there any people that really come to mind

1073
00:54:14,940 --> 00:54:19,220
that were deep, deep, deep in these bad arenas

1074
00:54:19,220 --> 00:54:20,420
that pulled themselves out

1075
00:54:20,420 --> 00:54:22,860
and have become great people now?

1076
00:54:22,860 --> 00:54:26,420
Yeah, you know, I know several people

1077
00:54:26,420 --> 00:54:31,420
who were on a very tragic, terrible path.

1078
00:54:31,420 --> 00:54:36,420
Their trajectory was towards violent death

1079
00:54:38,660 --> 00:54:43,660
or extended prison sentence, very likely both.

1080
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:48,820
Who, you know, many times,

1081
00:54:48,820 --> 00:54:51,060
like, you know, often through the help of others,

1082
00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:53,940
but many times actually rescued themselves

1083
00:54:53,940 --> 00:54:55,780
and said, man, this is not the life.

1084
00:54:55,780 --> 00:54:57,260
This is like, I'm better than this.

1085
00:54:57,260 --> 00:54:59,540
This is not, this is not who I want to be

1086
00:54:59,540 --> 00:55:01,620
and what I want to do.

1087
00:55:01,620 --> 00:55:06,140
Who've either been rescued or rescued themselves

1088
00:55:06,140 --> 00:55:11,140
and now make positive contributions to society

1089
00:55:11,140 --> 00:55:13,580
and help other people learn from their mistakes.

1090
00:55:13,580 --> 00:55:15,460
Those are great stories.

1091
00:55:16,660 --> 00:55:19,660
Those are fabulous stories of someone

1092
00:55:19,660 --> 00:55:21,500
who was at the very bottom,

1093
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:25,060
who somehow was either inspired

1094
00:55:25,060 --> 00:55:28,100
or inspired themselves to be special.

1095
00:55:28,100 --> 00:55:29,740
Yeah, and then that's the thing, you know,

1096
00:55:29,740 --> 00:55:32,300
you're pulling yourself out from the ashes, as it were.

1097
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:37,300
I try and be very transparent with my life story so far

1098
00:55:37,300 --> 00:55:40,140
in the fact that it's been really easy.

1099
00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:41,340
Like I had a great, you know,

1100
00:55:41,340 --> 00:55:43,740
a great child who grew up on a farm in England.

1101
00:55:43,740 --> 00:55:46,340
You know, I've never lost a child illness,

1102
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:48,220
I've never had any horrendous injuries

1103
00:55:48,220 --> 00:55:49,420
or anything like that.

1104
00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:50,460
So my life is good.

1105
00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:54,060
So our goal is to raise other people up

1106
00:55:54,060 --> 00:55:57,260
and identify that somebody else is doing it.

1107
00:55:57,260 --> 00:55:59,660
And identify that some people have had challenges

1108
00:55:59,660 --> 00:56:01,020
when they were young.

1109
00:56:01,020 --> 00:56:02,980
And like I said, I've mentioned some of these people,

1110
00:56:02,980 --> 00:56:05,260
like, you know, if you grew up and your parents were murdered

1111
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:08,500
and you were made to be a boy soldier in Sierra Leone,

1112
00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:10,900
you're probably going to have a harder time coming out of that

1113
00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:14,180
than a suburban, you know, American kid.

1114
00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:16,980
But if he can do it, then we can all do it.

1115
00:56:16,980 --> 00:56:19,940
But it needs all the people that are doing well

1116
00:56:19,940 --> 00:56:22,140
to reach our arm out and help those people

1117
00:56:22,140 --> 00:56:24,740
that were somewhere dark and bring them up.

1118
00:56:24,740 --> 00:56:29,740
Yeah, and I think that it's a tribute to all the people,

1119
00:56:30,980 --> 00:56:34,340
like in public service and the social workers

1120
00:56:34,340 --> 00:56:37,340
and the doctors and the nurses and all those people out there

1121
00:56:37,340 --> 00:56:40,180
who have chosen a path for themselves

1122
00:56:40,180 --> 00:56:43,020
that gives to the greater good,

1123
00:56:43,020 --> 00:56:48,020
that is designed to try to help other people.

1124
00:56:49,220 --> 00:56:52,020
And that's, you know, like that is,

1125
00:56:52,020 --> 00:56:55,020
that is a blessing in itself.

1126
00:56:55,020 --> 00:57:00,020
Like those professions, the people that are in those

1127
00:57:00,020 --> 00:57:03,540
professions are rewarded for their sacrifice

1128
00:57:03,540 --> 00:57:05,620
and their service and their commitment

1129
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:11,620
by something other than money, than financially.

1130
00:57:11,620 --> 00:57:17,620
They find satisfaction in what they're doing

1131
00:57:18,020 --> 00:57:20,020
beyond just collecting a paycheck.

1132
00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:22,020
Beyond just collecting a paycheck.

1133
00:57:22,980 --> 00:57:24,860
Yeah, now that transitions quite well

1134
00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:26,100
to what I wanna talk about next.

1135
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:29,060
So just knowing the fire service,

1136
00:57:29,060 --> 00:57:31,460
these are men and women that will literally do it for free.

1137
00:57:31,460 --> 00:57:34,780
There are men and women all over the country

1138
00:57:34,780 --> 00:57:36,140
doing this very job for free.

1139
00:57:36,140 --> 00:57:37,700
There are men and women doing the same thing

1140
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:40,940
in England for free, all over the planet.

1141
00:57:40,940 --> 00:57:44,100
And I see sometimes that gets taken advantage of,

1142
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:45,300
you know, this is 2019,

1143
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:47,780
most of these more densely populated areas

1144
00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:49,860
should have their career firefighters

1145
00:57:49,860 --> 00:57:52,860
and they should be taken care of financially,

1146
00:57:52,860 --> 00:57:54,260
you know, in a normal way.

1147
00:57:54,260 --> 00:57:55,900
They're not gonna get rich being a firefighter,

1148
00:57:55,900 --> 00:57:58,340
but especially on the health side.

1149
00:57:59,340 --> 00:58:04,340
And you see the other side.

1150
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:06,460
So you've got these men and women that sign up

1151
00:58:06,460 --> 00:58:07,540
because they wanna go out there

1152
00:58:07,540 --> 00:58:09,020
and they wanna make a difference.

1153
00:58:09,020 --> 00:58:11,540
But then you see, and I love your term, slap dicks.

1154
00:58:11,540 --> 00:58:13,620
It's exactly, it's perfect.

1155
00:58:13,620 --> 00:58:17,380
These people that are in administrative positions

1156
00:58:17,380 --> 00:58:19,780
that may or may not have done the job for a moment

1157
00:58:19,780 --> 00:58:23,180
or even higher up in political positions

1158
00:58:23,180 --> 00:58:26,180
that are creating so much resistance

1159
00:58:26,180 --> 00:58:28,420
and so much organizational stress

1160
00:58:28,420 --> 00:58:31,020
and getting in the way of these people that are out there

1161
00:58:31,020 --> 00:58:34,620
risking their lives, trying to make the world better.

1162
00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:37,940
So I guess when was it where you really realized

1163
00:58:37,940 --> 00:58:40,580
that that was gonna be a part of your journey as well?

1164
00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:44,900
I think that any of us that are part of

1165
00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:48,060
an organizational structure and especially for those of us

1166
00:58:48,060 --> 00:58:50,140
that are at the bottom of that structure

1167
00:58:50,140 --> 00:58:54,340
that are like the people with boots on the ground,

1168
00:58:54,340 --> 00:58:59,180
we're gonna work for people who are amazing leaders,

1169
00:58:59,180 --> 00:59:03,500
who get it and who offer support

1170
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:07,380
and make decisions for the greater good.

1171
00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:08,220
And then you know what?

1172
00:59:08,220 --> 00:59:11,460
There's always gonna be people in there who are selfish

1173
00:59:11,460 --> 00:59:16,460
and hide behind some moral or ethical position

1174
00:59:17,060 --> 00:59:19,380
but really all they care about is themselves

1175
00:59:19,380 --> 00:59:20,660
and their own advancement

1176
00:59:20,660 --> 00:59:25,300
and their own achievement and recognition.

1177
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:27,580
And I think that probably happened,

1178
00:59:27,580 --> 00:59:29,460
it doesn't only happen in the first responder world,

1179
00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:32,580
it happens in business and it happens in all walks of life.

1180
00:59:32,580 --> 00:59:34,940
And it comes back to personal choices.

1181
00:59:34,940 --> 00:59:35,780
Like who are you?

1182
00:59:35,780 --> 00:59:36,820
What do you stand for?

1183
00:59:36,820 --> 00:59:40,460
Yeah, now yours is a very extreme example though

1184
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:42,300
because as you got further into your career,

1185
00:59:42,300 --> 00:59:44,340
you had death threats on your family

1186
00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:47,100
and those same people basically refuse

1187
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:48,540
to even help protect your family.

1188
00:59:50,220 --> 00:59:52,420
Well, yeah, I think there was,

1189
00:59:52,420 --> 00:59:57,420
I ran into a perfect storm of supervision

1190
00:59:58,580 --> 01:00:03,580
that had the combination of corruption and incompetence.

1191
01:00:03,620 --> 01:00:05,260
And that's, man, that's bad.

1192
01:00:05,260 --> 01:00:07,340
That's really hard to overcome.

1193
01:00:09,980 --> 01:00:13,980
And even with that, even with people that I worked for,

1194
01:00:13,980 --> 01:00:18,980
that I had dedicated my professional life

1195
01:00:19,260 --> 01:00:23,260
to working for who abandoned me

1196
01:00:23,260 --> 01:00:27,260
and betrayed me and my family when we needed their help.

1197
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:31,100
Going back to earlier in our conversation,

1198
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:33,580
you know what, man, I've forgiven all those people

1199
01:00:33,580 --> 01:00:36,900
I'm not sitting here, I don't burn for anybody.

1200
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:40,860
I'm not wishing that any of the people that caused harm

1201
01:00:40,860 --> 01:00:45,860
or that made decisions that were intended

1202
01:00:45,980 --> 01:00:48,780
to hurt me or my family,

1203
01:00:48,780 --> 01:00:50,980
man, I don't have the ill will for them.

1204
01:00:50,980 --> 01:00:54,060
I don't get any satisfaction out of seeing

1205
01:00:55,740 --> 01:00:58,740
something negative happen in their life.

1206
01:00:58,740 --> 01:01:03,740
I don't, I've moved past that personally,

1207
01:01:03,740 --> 01:01:05,940
mentally and emotionally and spiritually,

1208
01:01:05,940 --> 01:01:07,180
I've moved past that.

1209
01:01:08,700 --> 01:01:10,500
Yeah, well, I think what I found frustrating

1210
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:12,220
with a lesser version of the same thing

1211
01:01:12,220 --> 01:01:15,140
that I've come across somewhat recently

1212
01:01:15,140 --> 01:01:19,060
is in professions like yours and mine,

1213
01:01:19,060 --> 01:01:23,580
that selfishness can also lead to the people that we serve,

1214
01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:24,980
risking their lives,

1215
01:01:24,980 --> 01:01:26,060
or even losing their lives.

1216
01:01:26,060 --> 01:01:28,900
I think that's what really angers me in some of these scenarios.

1217
01:01:29,980 --> 01:01:34,980
Yeah, like I said, the people that I was working for

1218
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:39,580
that had control and authority over me

1219
01:01:39,580 --> 01:01:44,220
and what was happening with me professionally,

1220
01:01:46,220 --> 01:01:49,580
they were incompetent and they were corrupt.

1221
01:01:49,580 --> 01:01:52,980
And that is, that's what I found frustrating.

1222
01:01:52,980 --> 01:01:55,500
They were corrupt and that is,

1223
01:01:55,500 --> 01:02:00,500
that's a very, very dangerous, very dangerous combination.

1224
01:02:00,980 --> 01:02:05,180
The perfect storm of that is really hard to overcome

1225
01:02:05,180 --> 01:02:08,980
and some really bad and tragic things took place.

1226
01:02:10,780 --> 01:02:13,620
And there is some frustration on my part

1227
01:02:13,620 --> 01:02:16,660
that none of those people were ever held accountable

1228
01:02:16,660 --> 01:02:20,220
for what they did and in some cases didn't do.

1229
01:02:20,220 --> 01:02:25,220
But you know what, that's not for me to figure out.

1230
01:02:26,900 --> 01:02:30,540
I did my best to expose it, I did my best to challenge it.

1231
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:36,900
I did my best actually to help prevent

1232
01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:40,780
what they did to me from happening to someone else.

1233
01:02:42,260 --> 01:02:44,660
In some aspects of that, I succeeded,

1234
01:02:44,660 --> 01:02:46,620
in other aspects of it, I failed,

1235
01:02:46,620 --> 01:02:48,140
but I've got a clear conscience

1236
01:02:48,140 --> 01:02:51,100
that I at least tried and stood up to it.

1237
01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:52,540
Yeah, and that's all you can do.

1238
01:02:52,540 --> 01:02:54,820
And it is frustrating because to me,

1239
01:02:54,820 --> 01:02:57,500
you would hope as you walk through the door of a profession

1240
01:02:57,500 --> 01:02:59,900
that the people to your left and right of you

1241
01:03:03,100 --> 01:03:06,220
understand the drive to help as much as you do.

1242
01:03:06,220 --> 01:03:09,060
And many of the men and women do, some even more,

1243
01:03:09,060 --> 01:03:12,660
but then when you see up within some

1244
01:03:12,660 --> 01:03:14,100
of these organizational structure,

1245
01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:18,060
that there's literally a lack of compassionate caring

1246
01:03:18,060 --> 01:03:21,420
for the very mission that you hold so dearly to your heart,

1247
01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:25,260
it is infuriating and it is a cancer

1248
01:03:25,260 --> 01:03:27,500
that you see in some places.

1249
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:28,780
And like you said, there's some great leaders

1250
01:03:28,780 --> 01:03:31,020
and there's some great organizations

1251
01:03:31,020 --> 01:03:32,180
where it's the complete opposite,

1252
01:03:32,180 --> 01:03:33,700
where they've got it right all the way through

1253
01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:37,100
and then the bad apples are absolute minority.

1254
01:03:37,100 --> 01:03:41,740
But there's other places where that whole chain is full

1255
01:03:41,740 --> 01:03:44,940
and the good guys are speckled around there

1256
01:03:44,940 --> 01:03:48,340
and it's a very frustrating work environment to be in.

1257
01:03:48,340 --> 01:03:49,580
Well, I think for all of us,

1258
01:03:49,580 --> 01:03:53,220
I worked for people who supervised me

1259
01:03:53,220 --> 01:03:54,900
that I absolutely adore,

1260
01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:59,060
that I would run through a block wall for

1261
01:03:59,060 --> 01:04:03,140
or jump off a skyscraper for if they asked me to do it

1262
01:04:03,140 --> 01:04:06,140
because of who they were and because of what they stood for

1263
01:04:06,140 --> 01:04:07,740
in their leadership.

1264
01:04:07,740 --> 01:04:11,820
I also worked for people that I literally would not piss on

1265
01:04:11,820 --> 01:04:16,420
if they were standing in front of me on fire.

1266
01:04:16,420 --> 01:04:21,060
And that's, you know, but they've done that.

1267
01:04:21,060 --> 01:04:21,900
They've done that.

1268
01:04:21,900 --> 01:04:26,100
And I found like oftentimes the people that preach

1269
01:04:26,100 --> 01:04:31,100
about family and about teamwork and about morale

1270
01:04:31,460 --> 01:04:34,900
and about ethics, the ones that like try to jam it

1271
01:04:34,900 --> 01:04:38,060
down your throat the most are the ones

1272
01:04:38,060 --> 01:04:42,620
that are least likely to actually live by their own words.

1273
01:04:44,020 --> 01:04:44,860
Yeah.

1274
01:04:44,860 --> 01:04:48,380
Now with that, so with you being in that organization

1275
01:04:48,380 --> 01:04:51,660
for so long, what do you think were some of the factors

1276
01:04:51,660 --> 01:04:54,940
that contributed to so many people like that

1277
01:04:54,940 --> 01:04:55,780
climbing the chain?

1278
01:04:55,780 --> 01:04:57,180
Because again, we see that

1279
01:04:57,180 --> 01:05:00,140
and I see a certain causation in my profession

1280
01:05:00,140 --> 01:05:02,460
which is the bar at the door.

1281
01:05:02,460 --> 01:05:05,900
Like if you're required to be a certain ability

1282
01:05:05,900 --> 01:05:08,660
and a certain fitness and, you know, drive,

1283
01:05:08,660 --> 01:05:11,180
it's very hard for turds to get through at that level

1284
01:05:11,180 --> 01:05:12,780
and then promote up.

1285
01:05:12,780 --> 01:05:16,340
Within your organization, what was it you think contributed

1286
01:05:16,340 --> 01:05:18,780
to those people being allowed to thrive

1287
01:05:18,780 --> 01:05:20,540
in that environment?

1288
01:05:20,540 --> 01:05:24,300
Well, you know, and I think almost from personal observation,

1289
01:05:24,300 --> 01:05:26,820
almost the opposite held true.

1290
01:05:26,820 --> 01:05:29,100
And this is not universal.

1291
01:05:29,100 --> 01:05:33,700
And I'm not trying to paint an entire job title

1292
01:05:33,700 --> 01:05:36,180
or profession with a broad brush.

1293
01:05:36,180 --> 01:05:41,180
But when people who don't achieve at the core level,

1294
01:05:44,260 --> 01:05:48,500
who are not good at the basic elements of the job,

1295
01:05:50,740 --> 01:05:55,300
if they're willing to raise their hand and move

1296
01:05:55,300 --> 01:06:00,100
and be relocated and simply because of that

1297
01:06:00,100 --> 01:06:05,100
can be promoted and you're not promoting quality.

1298
01:06:05,220 --> 01:06:09,980
You're not promoting wisdom or job knowledge

1299
01:06:09,980 --> 01:06:11,460
or understanding.

1300
01:06:11,460 --> 01:06:14,340
You're just promoting people that have a willingness

1301
01:06:14,340 --> 01:06:16,500
to play the game.

1302
01:06:16,500 --> 01:06:18,420
And then that's dangerous.

1303
01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:19,380
That's dangerous.

1304
01:06:19,380 --> 01:06:23,620
And like I said, like I work for some amazing,

1305
01:06:23,620 --> 01:06:28,380
amazing supervisors, people that like have,

1306
01:06:28,380 --> 01:06:31,420
like all my love and admiration.

1307
01:06:32,620 --> 01:06:35,620
But I work for some people that literally

1308
01:06:35,620 --> 01:06:39,380
should never have been given a badge or a gun,

1309
01:06:39,380 --> 01:06:42,420
should never have been in the profession in the first place,

1310
01:06:42,420 --> 01:06:47,420
who rose to positions of great influence and great power.

1311
01:06:47,980 --> 01:06:52,980
And then based on their own insecurities or jealousies

1312
01:06:52,980 --> 01:06:57,980
or any number of factors used their power

1313
01:06:57,980 --> 01:07:01,420
and influence to hurt people.

1314
01:07:01,420 --> 01:07:03,940
And that's the exact opposite

1315
01:07:03,940 --> 01:07:05,860
of what they're supposed to be doing.

1316
01:07:06,740 --> 01:07:08,060
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

1317
01:07:08,060 --> 01:07:09,500
And we have the same, we have the same.

1318
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:12,700
And again, this is a spectrum of people

1319
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:14,220
in the spectrum of departments

1320
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:16,140
of which there are many, many great ones,

1321
01:07:16,140 --> 01:07:17,780
but there is that common denominator.

1322
01:07:17,780 --> 01:07:20,460
And I hear it from people all over the globe

1323
01:07:20,460 --> 01:07:23,060
where the screw ups get promoted.

1324
01:07:23,060 --> 01:07:25,140
And obviously some great people get promoted too,

1325
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:28,460
but there is that yes man, you know,

1326
01:07:28,460 --> 01:07:31,940
ladder where, yeah, if you're prepared to do

1327
01:07:31,940 --> 01:07:34,740
whatever certain managements want,

1328
01:07:34,740 --> 01:07:37,220
you can climb through with very little ability.

1329
01:07:37,220 --> 01:07:40,860
And if there's a lack of caring for the people

1330
01:07:40,860 --> 01:07:41,900
under your command,

1331
01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:44,420
that is absolute recipe for disaster then.

1332
01:07:44,420 --> 01:07:47,740
Well, yeah, like we see it all the time.

1333
01:07:47,740 --> 01:07:52,740
People who promote based on their like willingness

1334
01:07:55,060 --> 01:07:56,940
to just do what they're told

1335
01:07:56,940 --> 01:08:00,780
and completely vanquish their own opinions

1336
01:08:00,780 --> 01:08:03,620
or their own experience or their own wisdom

1337
01:08:03,620 --> 01:08:08,220
and just nod their head to somebody above them

1338
01:08:09,180 --> 01:08:11,820
for favor or to get along.

1339
01:08:13,780 --> 01:08:16,660
And that, you know, that's dangerous.

1340
01:08:16,660 --> 01:08:20,620
And then you get those people that rise up

1341
01:08:20,620 --> 01:08:22,660
into those positions of influence

1342
01:08:22,660 --> 01:08:25,260
and then they start promoting people

1343
01:08:25,260 --> 01:08:27,780
that they see themselves in.

1344
01:08:27,780 --> 01:08:32,100
And it just builds and it becomes massive.

1345
01:08:32,100 --> 01:08:35,420
And now you have an entire structure of people

1346
01:08:35,420 --> 01:08:38,940
who don't stand for anything other than themselves.

1347
01:08:40,180 --> 01:08:41,620
Yeah.

1348
01:08:41,620 --> 01:08:42,460
Yeah, it's amazing.

1349
01:08:42,460 --> 01:08:43,460
It's tragic.

1350
01:08:43,460 --> 01:08:45,100
And you know, the sad thing is,

1351
01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:46,940
and I had Jocko Willink on here, you know,

1352
01:08:46,940 --> 01:08:49,340
so I was picking his brains for leadership

1353
01:08:49,340 --> 01:08:52,180
and obviously his philosophy is a lot of ownership.

1354
01:08:52,180 --> 01:08:54,220
And I think a lot of people,

1355
01:08:54,220 --> 01:08:56,100
well, some people, I wouldn't say a lot,

1356
01:08:56,100 --> 01:09:00,100
some people, I know I was in this position,

1357
01:09:00,100 --> 01:09:03,460
find themselves in an environment where they're like,

1358
01:09:03,460 --> 01:09:05,220
look, I'm trying to own everything I can.

1359
01:09:05,220 --> 01:09:08,100
I'm owning my entire world.

1360
01:09:08,100 --> 01:09:13,100
But if other people around me are not owning theirs,

1361
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:14,780
there's a certain point where you're like,

1362
01:09:14,780 --> 01:09:18,100
you know, I've tried everything I can to change.

1363
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:20,420
Just like you were saying, you know,

1364
01:09:20,420 --> 01:09:22,540
maybe it's time now for me to change my environment

1365
01:09:22,540 --> 01:09:25,340
because I'm just not able to facilitate

1366
01:09:25,340 --> 01:09:27,540
any more change where I am.

1367
01:09:27,540 --> 01:09:29,500
Well, and I think it goes back to what we said earlier

1368
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:32,460
in the conversation is that there's some people out there

1369
01:09:32,460 --> 01:09:36,060
that refuse to take any ownership.

1370
01:09:36,060 --> 01:09:41,060
They refuse to conduct any self-assessment or self-review.

1371
01:09:41,060 --> 01:09:46,060
And anything that goes wrong is somebody else's fault.

1372
01:09:46,620 --> 01:09:48,580
They never look at themselves and say like,

1373
01:09:48,580 --> 01:09:50,260
man, where did I drop the ball here?

1374
01:09:50,260 --> 01:09:51,900
What could I have done better?

1375
01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:58,420
They look at themselves from this spectrum of being perfect.

1376
01:09:59,980 --> 01:10:01,900
And if something didn't turn out perfectly,

1377
01:10:01,900 --> 01:10:03,500
it had to be somebody else's fault.

1378
01:10:03,500 --> 01:10:05,020
There has to be someone to blame.

1379
01:10:05,020 --> 01:10:06,380
This couldn't have been me.

1380
01:10:06,380 --> 01:10:11,380
And I'll say this in defense of management in general,

1381
01:10:11,620 --> 01:10:13,260
the management of my agency.

1382
01:10:14,140 --> 01:10:14,980
I'll tell you this,

1383
01:10:14,980 --> 01:10:17,020
I wouldn't have wanted to be my supervisor.

1384
01:10:17,020 --> 01:10:20,020
I wouldn't have wanted to supervise me.

1385
01:10:20,020 --> 01:10:22,620
I'm stubborn, I'm thick-headed.

1386
01:10:24,100 --> 01:10:28,100
I was not an easy person to manage.

1387
01:10:29,460 --> 01:10:32,100
There's some people that did it amazingly well

1388
01:10:32,100 --> 01:10:33,380
and very effectively.

1389
01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:38,380
And that was typically through honesty,

1390
01:10:39,780 --> 01:10:42,140
people that were honest with me,

1391
01:10:42,140 --> 01:10:43,660
people that were truthful with me,

1392
01:10:43,660 --> 01:10:47,060
people that managed and maintained their own integrity

1393
01:10:47,060 --> 01:10:48,380
and dignity.

1394
01:10:48,380 --> 01:10:51,180
You can't help but respect people like that.

1395
01:10:51,180 --> 01:10:56,180
But when you get people that you don't respect

1396
01:10:56,340 --> 01:11:01,340
or you lose respect for and who are just kind of

1397
01:11:01,340 --> 01:11:04,500
they're just counterfeit.

1398
01:11:04,500 --> 01:11:05,900
They're fake.

1399
01:11:07,060 --> 01:11:08,780
Man, it's hard to believe in them.

1400
01:11:08,780 --> 01:11:11,300
It's hard, you lose your trust in them.

1401
01:11:12,820 --> 01:11:14,900
Yeah, well, speaking of honesty,

1402
01:11:14,900 --> 01:11:17,740
Mike Ritten asked you a great question on his podcast.

1403
01:11:17,740 --> 01:11:19,500
And I kind of want to ask the same one

1404
01:11:19,500 --> 01:11:22,620
because I think it's a question that a lot of people have

1405
01:11:22,620 --> 01:11:24,580
when they think about undercover.

1406
01:11:24,580 --> 01:11:27,860
And I think it was basically when you were in that role

1407
01:11:27,860 --> 01:11:30,420
and you were undercover with numerous roles,

1408
01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:32,940
but the Hell's Angels specifically,

1409
01:11:32,940 --> 01:11:34,300
I think his question was,

1410
01:11:34,300 --> 01:11:37,860
was there any point where the line between good and bad

1411
01:11:37,860 --> 01:11:39,580
got blurred?

1412
01:11:39,580 --> 01:11:41,740
So I will ask that same question.

1413
01:11:41,740 --> 01:11:43,540
Was there any time where you felt

1414
01:11:44,420 --> 01:11:46,020
like you were starting to lose control

1415
01:11:46,020 --> 01:11:48,100
of the parameters of good and bad?

1416
01:11:49,100 --> 01:11:52,980
You know, I'll tell you where it blurred for me.

1417
01:11:52,980 --> 01:11:55,860
And it's a humiliating story to tell.

1418
01:11:55,860 --> 01:11:59,660
And it's, I take no pride in this

1419
01:11:59,660 --> 01:12:04,460
is that I never necessarily had that blurred line

1420
01:12:04,460 --> 01:12:07,380
with the suspects I was working on.

1421
01:12:07,380 --> 01:12:12,380
I always was able to like be fairly clearly defined

1422
01:12:14,460 --> 01:12:16,740
on who I was and what I was doing

1423
01:12:16,740 --> 01:12:19,380
and what we were trying to accomplish.

1424
01:12:19,380 --> 01:12:24,380
My line blurred on the personal side.

1425
01:12:24,380 --> 01:12:29,380
I became so entrenched in what I was doing

1426
01:12:29,740 --> 01:12:34,500
and I became so overwhelmed by the persona,

1427
01:12:34,500 --> 01:12:37,460
the undercover fake person that I was playing

1428
01:12:37,460 --> 01:12:41,100
that it began to dominate my life.

1429
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:46,100
And I didn't treat my family very well.

1430
01:12:46,260 --> 01:12:51,260
I complain about being betrayed and abandoned

1431
01:12:51,260 --> 01:12:53,940
by the people that I worked for.

1432
01:12:55,940 --> 01:12:59,620
And, you know, tell my woe is me story about that.

1433
01:12:59,620 --> 01:13:03,700
The reality is, is that I abandoned and betrayed

1434
01:13:03,700 --> 01:13:07,380
my own family in exchange for my job.

1435
01:13:07,380 --> 01:13:10,540
I turned my back on them and I made my job

1436
01:13:10,540 --> 01:13:14,020
and what I was doing and who I was

1437
01:13:14,020 --> 01:13:17,860
more important than my wife and my kids.

1438
01:13:17,860 --> 01:13:22,860
And so I really have no one or nothing to whine about

1439
01:13:23,180 --> 01:13:27,620
or complain to because the things that I'm complaining

1440
01:13:27,620 --> 01:13:30,540
about how my agency and certain managers

1441
01:13:30,540 --> 01:13:33,460
in my agency treated me, I did the same thing

1442
01:13:33,460 --> 01:13:35,460
to my own wife and kids.

1443
01:13:35,460 --> 01:13:38,660
The people that loved me the most,

1444
01:13:38,660 --> 01:13:41,740
the people that were the most loyal to me

1445
01:13:41,740 --> 01:13:44,180
and the most dedicated to me

1446
01:13:44,180 --> 01:13:47,060
were the ones that I treated the worst.

1447
01:13:47,060 --> 01:13:52,060
And that's a humiliating statement to make about yourself

1448
01:13:53,620 --> 01:13:55,860
in an open public forum.

1449
01:13:57,060 --> 01:13:59,300
But like I said, I don't make excuses.

1450
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:00,740
I'm not laying blame.

1451
01:14:00,740 --> 01:14:05,740
I try to be open about myself.

1452
01:14:05,940 --> 01:14:10,300
And if I didn't say that, and if I didn't tell that story,

1453
01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:12,700
everything else I've said or will say

1454
01:14:12,700 --> 01:14:16,580
wouldn't be credible.

1455
01:14:17,580 --> 01:14:20,900
And was that the ultimate decision to step away from ATF

1456
01:14:20,900 --> 01:14:22,780
or was it more of a forceful push?

1457
01:14:24,620 --> 01:14:29,620
It was, I would say if I was gonna pick one or the other

1458
01:14:30,420 --> 01:14:33,900
of those characterizations, it would be a forceful push.

1459
01:14:33,900 --> 01:14:37,980
Ultimately, the decision to leave was my decision.

1460
01:14:39,660 --> 01:14:41,180
But to back up a little bit,

1461
01:14:41,180 --> 01:14:44,740
the decision to get out of undercover work

1462
01:14:44,740 --> 01:14:46,220
was not my decision.

1463
01:14:46,220 --> 01:14:47,860
I was forced out of it.

1464
01:14:47,860 --> 01:14:49,460
I was pushed out of it.

1465
01:14:49,460 --> 01:14:50,860
And to be quite honest,

1466
01:14:50,860 --> 01:14:54,740
I would have never stopped doing that on my own.

1467
01:14:54,740 --> 01:14:56,780
I had become incapable of it

1468
01:14:56,780 --> 01:15:00,780
because my undercover role, my undercover job

1469
01:15:02,180 --> 01:15:07,180
morphed from something that I did to who I was.

1470
01:15:07,180 --> 01:15:12,180
It stopped becoming my profession

1471
01:15:12,260 --> 01:15:14,980
and it became my existence.

1472
01:15:14,980 --> 01:15:16,780
And that, man, that's dangerous.

1473
01:15:16,780 --> 01:15:19,340
And at the time I couldn't see it.

1474
01:15:19,340 --> 01:15:24,340
And the people that pushed me out of it

1475
01:15:24,100 --> 01:15:28,100
or forced me out of it, I was very resentful towards

1476
01:15:28,100 --> 01:15:29,500
for a long time.

1477
01:15:29,500 --> 01:15:31,700
Like, how can you take this away from me?

1478
01:15:31,700 --> 01:15:33,500
That's the one thing that I love.

1479
01:15:33,500 --> 01:15:35,300
How can you take it away from me?

1480
01:15:35,300 --> 01:15:38,700
And in hindsight, it was the best thing

1481
01:15:38,700 --> 01:15:40,500
they ever could have done for me.

1482
01:15:40,500 --> 01:15:43,300
I just couldn't see it at the time.

1483
01:15:43,300 --> 01:15:45,300
And that was after how many years?

1484
01:15:46,700 --> 01:15:49,100
Oh my goodness, that was, you know,

1485
01:15:49,100 --> 01:15:52,300
my career was 27 years long.

1486
01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:57,300
That was a good, and 20 years of day in and day out

1487
01:15:58,100 --> 01:16:01,500
undercover work that had just become

1488
01:16:01,500 --> 01:16:03,700
such an important big part of my life.

1489
01:16:03,700 --> 01:16:06,900
That everything else had been pushed aside,

1490
01:16:06,900 --> 01:16:09,500
including my wife, including my kids, everything,

1491
01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:12,900
my decision-making process, my risk assessment.

1492
01:16:14,100 --> 01:16:18,700
Everything was being driven by my ego

1493
01:16:18,700 --> 01:16:23,700
and by like chasing some false legacy,

1494
01:16:25,100 --> 01:16:27,700
some self-created hero syndrome.

1495
01:16:28,700 --> 01:16:30,900
And it was like, to be quite honest with you,

1496
01:16:30,900 --> 01:16:33,700
I had become dangerous.

1497
01:16:33,700 --> 01:16:38,700
I needed to be, I needed to have my leash jerked back

1498
01:16:39,500 --> 01:16:40,900
and I was very resistant to it.

1499
01:16:40,900 --> 01:16:44,300
And only after getting out of it and stepping back from it

1500
01:16:44,300 --> 01:16:47,700
and being able to look at it with clearer eyes,

1501
01:16:48,700 --> 01:16:53,700
did I see that those people that I was fighting against

1502
01:16:53,900 --> 01:16:58,900
actually were doing what was best for me and my family.

1503
01:16:58,900 --> 01:17:00,700
Yeah, now what was that transition like out?

1504
01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:04,300
Because for example, if I was a fireman for 25 years,

1505
01:17:04,300 --> 01:17:07,500
30 years, at least when I leave,

1506
01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:09,300
and you mentioned about the identity,

1507
01:17:09,300 --> 01:17:12,900
that's something we see, it causes a lot of problems

1508
01:17:12,900 --> 01:17:15,300
with some firefighters, cops,

1509
01:17:15,300 --> 01:17:18,500
is if that's all you've identified as,

1510
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:21,500
then when you retire, they really, really struggle.

1511
01:17:21,500 --> 01:17:23,700
Whereas the guys that do it a little bit more healthily

1512
01:17:23,700 --> 01:17:26,500
have other interests and when they transition,

1513
01:17:26,500 --> 01:17:28,900
they were like, well, I'll always be a policeman at heart,

1514
01:17:28,900 --> 01:17:31,100
but now I'm doing this.

1515
01:17:31,100 --> 01:17:33,500
But they can walk away, especially the fire department,

1516
01:17:33,500 --> 01:17:35,700
we can walk away, no one's gonna be out to kill us

1517
01:17:35,700 --> 01:17:37,900
or anything after we retire.

1518
01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:42,900
What was your transition from the career into retirement?

1519
01:17:42,900 --> 01:17:44,300
And was it a rocky one?

1520
01:17:45,300 --> 01:17:47,500
It was, it was slow.

1521
01:17:47,500 --> 01:17:49,500
I was resistant to it.

1522
01:17:51,100 --> 01:17:54,300
But I will say this, I mean, people look at me

1523
01:17:54,300 --> 01:17:56,500
and people meet me and they think like,

1524
01:17:56,500 --> 01:17:58,500
oh, you know what, that guy can't get out of role.

1525
01:17:58,500 --> 01:18:03,500
That was one of the complaints against me for a long time.

1526
01:18:03,500 --> 01:18:05,900
People said, oh, like he can't get out of role.

1527
01:18:05,900 --> 01:18:09,700
The truth of it is, is that I was never really in role.

1528
01:18:09,700 --> 01:18:11,500
I was always just me.

1529
01:18:11,500 --> 01:18:13,100
When I was in my undercover role,

1530
01:18:13,100 --> 01:18:15,300
like what you see is what you get.

1531
01:18:15,300 --> 01:18:19,100
I didn't change much, I didn't become some other person

1532
01:18:19,100 --> 01:18:21,500
to become successful in undercover work.

1533
01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:24,900
I always just, like I didn't put on an act.

1534
01:18:24,900 --> 01:18:27,300
I wasn't an actor, I was just myself.

1535
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:32,300
So if you don't like me now,

1536
01:18:33,700 --> 01:18:36,500
you probably wouldn't have liked me 30 years ago either.

1537
01:18:36,500 --> 01:18:38,700
My personality and attitude

1538
01:18:38,700 --> 01:18:42,700
and presentation hasn't changed very much.

1539
01:18:42,700 --> 01:18:44,100
You know, on the other hand,

1540
01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:46,900
if you liked me or enjoyed me 30 years ago,

1541
01:18:46,900 --> 01:18:49,300
you'd probably still get along with me now.

1542
01:18:49,300 --> 01:18:51,700
You'd probably still get along with me now.

1543
01:18:53,700 --> 01:18:55,700
And what about the mental side?

1544
01:18:55,700 --> 01:18:58,700
So that was, you know, some of the observations,

1545
01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:03,300
but did you have any problems with the things that you'd seen?

1546
01:19:03,300 --> 01:19:06,100
I mean, you talk about the body in the barrel in the desert

1547
01:19:06,100 --> 01:19:08,900
and some of the awful grotesque things that you had to witness.

1548
01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:11,300
Was there any knock-on effect from that?

1549
01:19:13,100 --> 01:19:17,900
Yeah, I think that, you know, any of us in these professions,

1550
01:19:17,900 --> 01:19:19,500
when you do it for long enough

1551
01:19:19,500 --> 01:19:22,500
and when you see the things that we see

1552
01:19:22,500 --> 01:19:26,100
and when our professions,

1553
01:19:26,100 --> 01:19:29,100
at least the old school mentality towards our professions

1554
01:19:29,100 --> 01:19:32,100
was that that's the, you know, that's the job,

1555
01:19:32,100 --> 01:19:35,900
that's the cost of business, choke it down,

1556
01:19:35,900 --> 01:19:38,700
ignore it, bury it.

1557
01:19:38,700 --> 01:19:40,500
It's what we do.

1558
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:45,700
When you've done that long enough,

1559
01:19:45,700 --> 01:19:48,500
it alters your DNA.

1560
01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:51,700
It literally changes your personality.

1561
01:19:51,700 --> 01:19:54,700
And there was one event in my life

1562
01:19:54,700 --> 01:19:59,500
that, like, really was super, super impactful on me

1563
01:19:59,500 --> 01:20:07,700
is that I responded to the Columbine High School massacre

1564
01:20:07,700 --> 01:20:13,100
and to see the bodies of those kids

1565
01:20:13,100 --> 01:20:16,100
who were trapped, you know, in that cafeteria,

1566
01:20:16,100 --> 01:20:18,700
who were trapped in that library,

1567
01:20:18,700 --> 01:20:20,500
and were hunted down.

1568
01:20:20,500 --> 01:20:24,300
They were like, they were like literally sheeps

1569
01:20:24,300 --> 01:20:27,700
trapped in a pen with wolves,

1570
01:20:27,700 --> 01:20:32,100
and no way to escape, no way to defend themselves,

1571
01:20:32,100 --> 01:20:35,900
nowhere to go for safety or help.

1572
01:20:37,500 --> 01:20:41,900
And that, you know what,

1573
01:20:41,900 --> 01:20:47,500
like I developed an anger from witnessing that,

1574
01:20:47,500 --> 01:20:49,500
that I'm not sure ever left me.

1575
01:20:52,500 --> 01:20:54,500
Yeah, and I can't imagine,

1576
01:20:54,500 --> 01:20:56,100
yeah, and obviously there were lots of people

1577
01:20:56,100 --> 01:20:58,500
that responded to all these mass shootings that we've had,

1578
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:01,700
but the trauma that has, but the anger,

1579
01:21:01,700 --> 01:21:03,100
I understand so much,

1580
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:06,100
and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier.

1581
01:21:06,100 --> 01:21:08,500
Yeah, we know now as first responders, as medics,

1582
01:21:08,500 --> 01:21:10,100
as law enforcement officers,

1583
01:21:10,100 --> 01:21:12,100
that had we had different tactics,

1584
01:21:12,100 --> 01:21:14,500
we could have saved some more, not all,

1585
01:21:14,500 --> 01:21:16,300
but some more of the people that were bleeding out,

1586
01:21:16,300 --> 01:21:18,500
that were right by the windows.

1587
01:21:18,500 --> 01:21:20,700
And that's where that complacency

1588
01:21:20,700 --> 01:21:22,700
and that poor management ties in,

1589
01:21:22,700 --> 01:21:26,300
is if we're not willing to learn from horrendous things like that

1590
01:21:26,300 --> 01:21:29,700
and ask ourselves how can we do it better and have ownership,

1591
01:21:29,700 --> 01:21:32,500
then the same amount of people are going to die again next time,

1592
01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:35,100
which is completely inexcusable.

1593
01:21:35,100 --> 01:21:37,500
Well, I think what's hard for us in the profession,

1594
01:21:37,500 --> 01:21:42,300
or for anybody, are those events that are completely senseless,

1595
01:21:42,300 --> 01:21:47,900
that you go from Columbine to the school shootings,

1596
01:21:47,900 --> 01:21:50,300
to the 9-11 attacks,

1597
01:21:50,300 --> 01:21:54,900
to the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City,

1598
01:21:54,900 --> 01:22:01,900
to any big or small senseless attack,

1599
01:22:01,900 --> 01:22:06,700
the bombing at the Boston Marathon.

1600
01:22:06,700 --> 01:22:10,300
If you have a couple of gangsters

1601
01:22:10,300 --> 01:22:13,100
that get in some dispute out on the street

1602
01:22:13,100 --> 01:22:17,900
and kill each other during a drug deal,

1603
01:22:17,900 --> 01:22:19,300
no one celebrates that.

1604
01:22:19,300 --> 01:22:21,500
Like, there's no...

1605
01:22:21,500 --> 01:22:24,300
That's not okay. There's no satisfaction in it.

1606
01:22:24,300 --> 01:22:28,100
But you can, at least to balance it internally,

1607
01:22:28,100 --> 01:22:31,100
saying, hey, look, this is a lifestyle these people chose.

1608
01:22:31,100 --> 01:22:33,500
And if you're going to live this lifestyle,

1609
01:22:33,500 --> 01:22:34,700
and if you're going to play this game,

1610
01:22:34,700 --> 01:22:37,700
this is a potential consequence.

1611
01:22:37,700 --> 01:22:39,700
But you go back to Columbine, you know,

1612
01:22:39,700 --> 01:22:43,500
those kids went to school that day to learn

1613
01:22:43,500 --> 01:22:46,100
and to sit in the classroom and to hang out with their friends

1614
01:22:46,100 --> 01:22:48,500
and to go to practice after school

1615
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:53,100
or go to their club or do all those things.

1616
01:22:53,100 --> 01:22:54,700
And the senselessness of it,

1617
01:22:54,700 --> 01:22:57,100
the senselessness of, you know,

1618
01:22:57,100 --> 01:23:05,100
having airliners fly into skyscrapers in New York City,

1619
01:23:05,100 --> 01:23:11,300
you know, the senselessness of bombs being set off

1620
01:23:11,300 --> 01:23:17,700
at the Boston Marathon and killing people and maiming people.

1621
01:23:17,700 --> 01:23:18,900
Those that...

1622
01:23:18,900 --> 01:23:23,300
We just are not capable of internally answering

1623
01:23:23,300 --> 01:23:27,500
or processing the why to those things.

1624
01:23:27,500 --> 01:23:28,500
No, because there is no...

1625
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:30,500
And it's interesting the way that yours

1626
01:23:30,500 --> 01:23:32,900
and Chris Field's life intersected.

1627
01:23:32,900 --> 01:23:36,500
I know, you know, that was an ATF building as well.

1628
01:23:36,500 --> 01:23:39,300
You guys had offices in there and then obviously the response.

1629
01:23:39,300 --> 01:23:41,300
And there's Chris holding Bailey outside.

1630
01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:45,100
And, you know, another tragic, tragic event

1631
01:23:45,100 --> 01:23:47,300
that daycare was completely destroyed.

1632
01:23:47,300 --> 01:23:48,500
19 kids were killed.

1633
01:23:48,500 --> 01:23:49,900
And for what?

1634
01:23:49,900 --> 01:23:54,500
For some lunatics supposed response to the Waco.

1635
01:23:54,500 --> 01:23:56,700
Yeah, well, Timothy McVeigh, you know,

1636
01:23:56,700 --> 01:24:00,100
targeted and attacked the Murrow Federal Building

1637
01:24:00,100 --> 01:24:06,100
in Oklahoma City based on his hatred for ATF.

1638
01:24:06,100 --> 01:24:11,100
And, you know, 19 babies were killed in that daycare center

1639
01:24:11,100 --> 01:24:16,100
along with, what, 168 other people.

1640
01:24:16,100 --> 01:24:20,100
What, to prove a point to like you think you changed something?

1641
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:21,700
You didn't.

1642
01:24:21,700 --> 01:24:22,900
You didn't. He didn't.

1643
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:26,700
He actually probably did.

1644
01:24:26,700 --> 01:24:28,700
McVeigh actually probably did the opposite

1645
01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:32,100
of what he intended it to, was that he empowered people

1646
01:24:32,100 --> 01:24:36,500
and he unified people because, you know,

1647
01:24:36,500 --> 01:24:38,300
the good and innocent people in the world

1648
01:24:38,300 --> 01:24:41,300
ultimately will rally together.

1649
01:24:41,300 --> 01:24:45,300
Humanity and good will win.

1650
01:24:45,300 --> 01:24:48,900
And it will overcome, you know, all the hatred out there.

1651
01:24:48,900 --> 01:24:54,300
You look at the, just the natural disasters that take place.

1652
01:24:54,300 --> 01:25:00,900
People, good people, when seeing others, you know,

1653
01:25:00,900 --> 01:25:07,300
confronted with tragedy, they'll do the right thing.

1654
01:25:07,300 --> 01:25:10,700
And good people will win.

1655
01:25:10,700 --> 01:25:11,300
Yeah.

1656
01:25:11,300 --> 01:25:13,900
Yeah, and like you said, you see it so many times with that.

1657
01:25:13,900 --> 01:25:17,300
And I think one thing as a culture, we just need to learn

1658
01:25:17,300 --> 01:25:20,100
is we don't have to wait for a disaster

1659
01:25:20,100 --> 01:25:21,700
to start acting like that, you know.

1660
01:25:21,700 --> 01:25:24,300
It starts to filter off and people in New York,

1661
01:25:24,300 --> 01:25:26,500
they talk about the observation where, you know,

1662
01:25:26,500 --> 01:25:29,300
obviously shortly after 9-11,

1663
01:25:29,300 --> 01:25:32,500
what we saw the New Yorkers doing was absolutely incredible.

1664
01:25:32,500 --> 01:25:35,100
But the New Yorkers talk about, well, a year after

1665
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:39,100
they started sliding back to the very unfriendly nature

1666
01:25:39,100 --> 01:25:40,900
of how they conduct their business.

1667
01:25:40,900 --> 01:25:46,700
And I think if we could harness that tribal community

1668
01:25:46,700 --> 01:25:52,100
that we have in times of pain like that and keep it going longer,

1669
01:25:52,100 --> 01:25:55,100
that in turn will have a ripple effect and maybe drive down

1670
01:25:55,100 --> 01:25:57,500
some of the hatred that we see.

1671
01:25:57,500 --> 01:26:00,500
Well, it's just, you know, when you look at the big picture,

1672
01:26:00,500 --> 01:26:07,900
the 30,000-foot view of politics and culture and society,

1673
01:26:07,900 --> 01:26:10,900
it's just, it's so driven by hatred.

1674
01:26:10,900 --> 01:26:20,500
And it truly is shocking the way we as human beings

1675
01:26:20,500 --> 01:26:25,100
all over the world treat other human beings.

1676
01:26:25,100 --> 01:26:26,100
Yeah, it is.

1677
01:26:26,100 --> 01:26:30,300
And then especially when there's this facade of some great mission,

1678
01:26:30,300 --> 01:26:36,100
when really, when it boils down to it, it's money and power and greed.

1679
01:26:36,100 --> 01:26:38,500
Ain't that the truth?

1680
01:26:38,500 --> 01:26:44,700
You look at, you know, like all this is there's ultimately people

1681
01:26:44,700 --> 01:26:51,700
that are in powerful positions and are motivated by hate, money and greed.

1682
01:26:51,700 --> 01:26:53,900
Yeah, it's awful.

1683
01:26:53,900 --> 01:26:55,900
Well, Jay, I want to transition to some closing questions.

1684
01:26:55,900 --> 01:26:59,500
We've been chatting for an hour and a half and I want to be mindful of your time.

1685
01:26:59,500 --> 01:27:02,300
But before we do that, I want to talk about one thing.

1686
01:27:02,300 --> 01:27:05,700
Obviously, Bethann connected us and I had Chris on as well

1687
01:27:05,700 --> 01:27:09,500
and you guys are all connected with the Vibe Infusion Group.

1688
01:27:09,500 --> 01:27:12,500
So how did you get involved with that?

1689
01:27:12,500 --> 01:27:16,300
I just, you know, I'm a fan of their product.

1690
01:27:16,300 --> 01:27:20,100
I think they're putting out some new and unique products

1691
01:27:20,100 --> 01:27:24,100
that are, you know, out of the ordinary

1692
01:27:24,100 --> 01:27:34,100
and have benefits to them that are like all different things.

1693
01:27:34,100 --> 01:27:38,300
Like I'm very excited to see their Calm Bar come out,

1694
01:27:38,300 --> 01:27:44,100
which is, you know, got the makeup of that bar,

1695
01:27:44,100 --> 01:27:47,500
addresses anxiety and depression and things like that

1696
01:27:47,500 --> 01:27:51,500
and people that, you know, suffer from elements of that.

1697
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:56,100
So I'm just, I'm excited to see what they do and where they go

1698
01:27:56,100 --> 01:28:02,700
and I've allowed them to use my name if they can

1699
01:28:02,700 --> 01:28:05,900
and how they can to promote that.

1700
01:28:05,900 --> 01:28:10,300
Yeah, and like I was telling Chris, I think it's a very simple switch.

1701
01:28:10,300 --> 01:28:14,300
You know, I have a lot of, you know, men and women that I work alongside

1702
01:28:14,300 --> 01:28:18,500
that don't have the ability to cook, you know, good food.

1703
01:28:18,500 --> 01:28:23,300
So we have to have snacks and this to me is a very healthy way

1704
01:28:23,300 --> 01:28:26,700
of, you know, having a snack when you're in a rescue ambulance

1705
01:28:26,700 --> 01:28:28,300
or a police car or whatever it is,

1706
01:28:28,300 --> 01:28:31,900
versus a snicker or a donut or, you know, the other alternatives.

1707
01:28:31,900 --> 01:28:34,900
And if you can also have a therapeutic effect,

1708
01:28:34,900 --> 01:28:37,100
like the Energy Bar obviously will give you an up

1709
01:28:37,100 --> 01:28:38,700
if you're beginning of your shift.

1710
01:28:38,700 --> 01:28:41,100
Like you said, the Calm, if you're trying to kind of deregulate

1711
01:28:41,100 --> 01:28:44,700
at the end of a shift, then that would be a good one when they release that.

1712
01:28:44,700 --> 01:28:48,500
But I think it's just a good clean product and we need more of those.

1713
01:28:48,500 --> 01:28:51,700
Yeah, and you know what, in all sincerity,

1714
01:28:51,700 --> 01:28:54,700
like I believe in what they're trying to do.

1715
01:28:54,700 --> 01:28:56,300
I get nothing for that.

1716
01:28:56,300 --> 01:28:59,300
I'm not a paid spokesman.

1717
01:28:59,300 --> 01:29:05,300
I'm not being compensated to speak about their product.

1718
01:29:05,300 --> 01:29:08,700
It's just, I think it's, I think what they're doing

1719
01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:13,100
and what they're producing has a benefit to the first responder community.

1720
01:29:13,100 --> 01:29:14,900
And so I've gotten behind it.

1721
01:29:14,900 --> 01:29:19,700
But I'm not some paid influencer that's trying to get people to buy their product.

1722
01:29:19,700 --> 01:29:22,500
It's just something that I think is good for us.

1723
01:29:22,500 --> 01:29:24,700
Yeah, well imagine that.

1724
01:29:24,700 --> 01:29:25,900
I do that a lot on this show.

1725
01:29:25,900 --> 01:29:28,100
If something works, I'll shout from the rooftops

1726
01:29:28,100 --> 01:29:34,100
because it's good and I'd rather people do that than use the shitty alternative.

1727
01:29:34,100 --> 01:29:37,500
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people out there that will speak up

1728
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:42,100
and say something flattering about anything for the right amount of money.

1729
01:29:42,100 --> 01:29:44,100
And like I don't judge anybody.

1730
01:29:44,100 --> 01:29:47,100
Like I'm not telling people how to live their lives

1731
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:54,900
and I'm not assessing any kind of like judgment for the people that do that.

1732
01:29:54,900 --> 01:29:59,700
It's just, it's not what I'm doing, it's not what I'm about.

1733
01:29:59,700 --> 01:30:04,300
I just, I've spoken up on their behalf because I think it's good,

1734
01:30:04,300 --> 01:30:07,700
a good product for the people in the first responder community.

1735
01:30:07,700 --> 01:30:09,700
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

1736
01:30:09,700 --> 01:30:12,500
All right, well, so you've got two books,

1737
01:30:12,500 --> 01:30:16,300
No Angel, which specifically talks about Operation Black Biscuit

1738
01:30:16,300 --> 01:30:19,700
and then Catching Hell, which is kind of like a broader overview,

1739
01:30:19,700 --> 01:30:22,500
which I just finished, is an incredible book.

1740
01:30:22,500 --> 01:30:26,300
Are you in the process of writing another one or is that it for now?

1741
01:30:26,300 --> 01:30:28,700
You know what, I'm not.

1742
01:30:28,700 --> 01:30:33,100
I'm not writing for a lot of people that are writers and successful writers.

1743
01:30:33,100 --> 01:30:35,300
It's very easy for them.

1744
01:30:35,300 --> 01:30:38,100
They're just, they're good writers.

1745
01:30:38,100 --> 01:30:41,300
Writing for me is very hard.

1746
01:30:41,300 --> 01:30:46,700
It's difficult and maybe because I'm talking about

1747
01:30:46,700 --> 01:30:50,500
and writing about difficult topics for me

1748
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:57,100
or things that are very personal, I try, like, I think you've read both those books,

1749
01:30:57,100 --> 01:31:00,300
No Angel and Catching Hell, they're not hero books.

1750
01:31:00,300 --> 01:31:02,500
They're not, they're not I love me books.

1751
01:31:02,500 --> 01:31:08,300
They're not like self-glorifying flattering books, but they are honest.

1752
01:31:08,300 --> 01:31:12,900
When I wrote my books, I knew that I was going to put my name on them.

1753
01:31:12,900 --> 01:31:18,100
My name was going to be on the cover and I wanted them to be authentic.

1754
01:31:18,100 --> 01:31:25,100
I didn't want to try to present myself as being someone's knight in shining armor

1755
01:31:25,100 --> 01:31:28,700
and some hero because that's not who I am.

1756
01:31:28,700 --> 01:31:34,300
You know, I'm a common man who was placed in some uncommon situations

1757
01:31:34,300 --> 01:31:38,100
and just did the best I could.

1758
01:31:38,100 --> 01:31:43,100
Some days succeeding, you know, many days failing and making mistakes.

1759
01:31:43,100 --> 01:31:46,500
And I tried to be open and honest about all of it.

1760
01:31:46,500 --> 01:31:50,900
Yeah, and you were and like you said, the ownership there is very, very clear.

1761
01:31:50,900 --> 01:31:54,100
And, you know, the way you talk, like you said about making a million mistakes

1762
01:31:54,100 --> 01:31:56,900
and being given a million and one chances.

1763
01:31:56,900 --> 01:31:59,500
And that's why I think it was so relatable to me.

1764
01:31:59,500 --> 01:32:01,500
And I'm not just blow and smoke up your ass.

1765
01:32:01,500 --> 01:32:03,700
I totally mean this when I say this.

1766
01:32:03,700 --> 01:32:05,700
I have struggled to read a lot recently.

1767
01:32:05,700 --> 01:32:10,300
So I've been doing the audiobooks when I drive and I genuinely couldn't put this book down.

1768
01:32:10,300 --> 01:32:17,700
It just resonated with me and it wasn't like in a captivating, you know, Harry Potter type way.

1769
01:32:17,700 --> 01:32:23,300
It was just the honesty and it doesn't matter if you're an ATF or law enforcement or the ER.

1770
01:32:23,300 --> 01:32:28,700
You know, all of us in these professions, I could relate to the good times in your stories

1771
01:32:28,700 --> 01:32:33,500
and I could relate to the professional frustrations and, you know, the ethical decisions.

1772
01:32:33,500 --> 01:32:40,500
And it was, I think the fact that you made it so honest is what was so endearing to me as a reader.

1773
01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:41,700
Well, that's very kind.

1774
01:32:41,700 --> 01:32:46,900
And I think that that, like your characterization of it is what I was trying to do.

1775
01:32:46,900 --> 01:32:53,700
And I think ultimately what maybe has lent itself to the success of those books is because of that.

1776
01:32:53,700 --> 01:33:02,900
That you don't have to be a cop or a first responder to translate some of the stories

1777
01:33:02,900 --> 01:33:12,300
that are told there into your own life and see the comparison and see that ultimately kind of what all of us go through,

1778
01:33:12,300 --> 01:33:18,100
regardless of what our personal life might be or the profession we've chosen,

1779
01:33:18,100 --> 01:33:24,100
we all kind of go through the same problems and we have to figure them out and deal with them and resolve them,

1780
01:33:24,100 --> 01:33:26,300
you know, oftentimes in the same way.

1781
01:33:26,300 --> 01:33:27,500
Absolutely.

1782
01:33:27,500 --> 01:33:30,300
All right. Well, one of my first closing questions is the same thing.

1783
01:33:30,300 --> 01:33:31,500
So we talked about your books.

1784
01:33:31,500 --> 01:33:35,100
Is there a book by someone else that you love to recommend to people?

1785
01:33:35,100 --> 01:33:39,900
It can be about what we've talked about or something completely different.

1786
01:33:39,900 --> 01:33:42,700
Oh, my goodness.

1787
01:33:42,700 --> 01:33:49,100
You may have interviewed my friend, Jason Redman.

1788
01:33:49,100 --> 01:33:53,900
He wrote a book called The Trident, which is an amazing book.

1789
01:33:53,900 --> 01:34:08,700
Jason was a or is a Navy SEAL who experienced some of the most catastrophic physical injuries that anybody could imagine.

1790
01:34:08,700 --> 01:34:15,500
And his story of overcoming those is pretty amazing.

1791
01:34:15,500 --> 01:34:20,500
Pretty, you know, he's someone that I admire.

1792
01:34:20,500 --> 01:34:30,700
I have another friend named Jason Sheckley, who's a police department officer who,

1793
01:34:30,700 --> 01:34:37,100
like many of us in the in the first responder profession, took the job for the right reasons.

1794
01:34:37,100 --> 01:34:39,700
He didn't take it to become famous or rich.

1795
01:34:39,700 --> 01:34:56,100
He took it with a greater good mentality to try to help people and was trapped in a burning vehicle and suffered some horrific,

1796
01:34:56,100 --> 01:35:04,100
like horrific burns over a huge amount of his body.

1797
01:35:04,100 --> 01:35:09,100
And when you hear his story, when you hear Jason Sheckley's story,

1798
01:35:09,100 --> 01:35:16,300
when you hear Jason Redman's story, like people like me, when you feel like when you feel kind of pathetic,

1799
01:35:16,300 --> 01:35:21,700
when you feel sad for yourself, oh, this didn't turn out the way it's supposed to and I deserve better.

1800
01:35:21,700 --> 01:35:31,500
You know, why me? And then you read stories from from these guys who are friends of mine and you read about

1801
01:35:31,500 --> 01:35:35,000
what they had to overcome and what they had to go through.

1802
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:41,200
You realize, all of us can realize that as bad as you think things might be for you,

1803
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:48,500
you don't have to look far for me just to my right or to my left to either one of these guys to realize,

1804
01:35:48,500 --> 01:35:56,400
man, people have it way harder and way tougher than than I do than we do.

1805
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:58,900
And it's it's enlightening.

1806
01:35:58,900 --> 01:36:03,000
It opens your eyes like, hey, man, like don't take any time feeling sorry for yourself,

1807
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:10,800
because there's people who have it much worse who would trade their life for your life at the snap of a fingers

1808
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:12,900
if they had the chance.

1809
01:36:12,900 --> 01:36:14,700
Absolutely. And I've heard of Jason.

1810
01:36:14,700 --> 01:36:16,700
I haven't heard of Jason Sheckley.

1811
01:36:16,700 --> 01:36:20,500
But one of my questions is always is there a person you recommend to come on this show?

1812
01:36:20,500 --> 01:36:24,900
So I'm going to snatch both those names from you and assume that they would both be great guests.

1813
01:36:24,900 --> 01:36:27,800
They were amazing. They're amazing.

1814
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:34,600
The downside is that for Jay Dobbins is that if you get Jason Sheckley or Jason Redman on your podcast,

1815
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,700
no one's going to want to listen to me. You're going to want to listen to them.

1816
01:36:37,700 --> 01:36:39,400
I disagree. They're really amazing.

1817
01:36:39,400 --> 01:36:42,500
They're really amazing. But it is.

1818
01:36:42,500 --> 01:36:44,300
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it is.

1819
01:36:44,300 --> 01:36:47,200
I've had so many people like that on here already.

1820
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:51,200
You know, firemen that got burned in a collapse and, you know,

1821
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:56,500
Marines and other members of the military that lost their legs or people that were born with no arms and no legs.

1822
01:36:56,500 --> 01:37:00,700
And just all these different physical challenges or mental challenges.

1823
01:37:00,700 --> 01:37:04,000
And like you said, it just reprograms us.

1824
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:07,600
And it's just down to gratitude for waking up every morning.

1825
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:14,500
Even if you take a first breath and it's clean air, you're already doing better than about a third of the world.

1826
01:37:14,500 --> 01:37:16,800
Well, I think that's it.

1827
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:24,500
I think that is probably, you know, the key is gratitude.

1828
01:37:24,500 --> 01:37:34,800
And I've tried to have gratitude for everything, including my problems,

1829
01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:42,900
including my mistakes, including the things that haven't been fortunate because they were put there for a reason.

1830
01:37:42,900 --> 01:37:46,000
Now, whether I take advantage of the reason, whether I learn from the reason,

1831
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:50,700
whether I gain some wisdom, you know, that's on me.

1832
01:37:50,700 --> 01:37:58,400
But I have to be gracious and thankful for those things because, man, if you don't,

1833
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:03,900
you just you end up feeling defeated over everything.

1834
01:38:03,900 --> 01:38:06,800
Problems, you know, problems that hit our life can be good.

1835
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:08,200
You know, there's a silver lining there.

1836
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:12,100
You may have to look for it and you may have to really look hard for it.

1837
01:38:12,100 --> 01:38:15,100
But there's a silver lining in everything.

1838
01:38:15,100 --> 01:38:18,400
Yeah, well, it's like you said with the forced retirement.

1839
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:23,100
Then you had the time to actually look back and realize the impact it was having on your family and yourself.

1840
01:38:23,100 --> 01:38:27,100
And then it was a blessing in disguise, ultimately.

1841
01:38:27,100 --> 01:38:31,300
Yeah, Jason Sheckerley's book is called Burning Shield.

1842
01:38:31,300 --> 01:38:34,400
And then Jason Redman's book is called The Trident.

1843
01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:38,500
And they're both, man, if you can talk with those guys,

1844
01:38:38,500 --> 01:38:48,600
you just walk away amazed at the resiliency of their spirit.

1845
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:52,600
Brilliant. Well, I would definitely reach out to both of them and see if I can get them on as well,

1846
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:55,900
because I would love to hear both their stories. So thank you.

1847
01:38:55,900 --> 01:38:58,600
That's the next question. Same kind of thing about the book.

1848
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:03,500
But is there a movie and or a documentary that you love?

1849
01:39:03,500 --> 01:39:13,200
You know, I just saw a pretty a couple of pretty amazing movies like like,

1850
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:20,100
I mean, we start talking about movies. We're going to be on this call for for hours because I'm a big movie fan.

1851
01:39:20,100 --> 01:39:25,300
But I just recently saw a movie called The Rider,

1852
01:39:25,300 --> 01:39:34,500
which is the story of a rodeo cowboy who suffers traumatic brain injury

1853
01:39:34,500 --> 01:39:40,100
and his struggle to find normalcy outside.

1854
01:39:40,100 --> 01:39:44,200
You know, like what he loved and what he wants to do and who he wanted to be.

1855
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:46,000
And it's it's based on a true story.

1856
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:52,900
And actually, the star of the movie is actually that the actor in the movie is the real life person who suffered it.

1857
01:39:52,900 --> 01:39:58,100
And it's pretty, pretty moving, pretty moving movie.

1858
01:39:58,100 --> 01:40:04,900
And it talks a lot of what we've talked about in this and this discussion is applied there.

1859
01:40:04,900 --> 01:40:13,300
And then I just recently saw a movie called The Mustang,

1860
01:40:13,300 --> 01:40:25,700
which is about a prison program where they rescue wild Mustangs and the inmates who are in this program

1861
01:40:25,700 --> 01:40:28,900
train these wild horses for auction.

1862
01:40:28,900 --> 01:40:32,100
And that was it's also based on a true story.

1863
01:40:32,100 --> 01:40:40,000
And that's it was a really good human factor, both of them,

1864
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:45,000
just about the human factor and about about people like and based in truth,

1865
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:48,200
which is the movies personally that I enjoy.

1866
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:53,600
I enjoy like truthful movies about real people and real events versus,

1867
01:40:53,600 --> 01:41:02,000
you know, some alien that, you know, that comes here to turn into a robot to save the world.

1868
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,300
And like those aren't the kind of movies I go to see.

1869
01:41:05,300 --> 01:41:10,900
I can relate. I've done a few of the same as well, but the violent slasher movies,

1870
01:41:10,900 --> 01:41:15,500
you know, the torture movies that seem to be so popular as a fireman,

1871
01:41:15,500 --> 01:41:16,700
that they turn my stomach.

1872
01:41:16,700 --> 01:41:21,400
It's like I don't understand why you were entertained by that death immutilation

1873
01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:25,400
that you and I have seen for real and is disgusting.

1874
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:33,300
Yeah, I'm like I'm always like I'm always inspired by some kind of truth based story that

1875
01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:37,800
that that is, you know, that has an inspiring resilient element to it.

1876
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,000
Like I want to go like beyond be entertained.

1877
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:42,400
I want to be uplifted.

1878
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:45,500
Like can you do like can you do that for me in a movie?

1879
01:41:45,500 --> 01:41:49,300
If you can, I'm going to stand in line and buy my ticket.

1880
01:41:49,300 --> 01:41:50,500
Absolutely.

1881
01:41:50,500 --> 01:41:54,600
All right. So the last question we talk about before where people can find your work is

1882
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:56,400
what do you do now to decompress?

1883
01:41:56,400 --> 01:42:00,500
Because actually before I ask that, let me preface that by telling everyone.

1884
01:42:00,500 --> 01:42:05,100
So you're not a big fan of riding motorcycles, even though you went undercover with the Hells

1885
01:42:05,100 --> 01:42:07,500
Angels for two years, is that right?

1886
01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:09,400
I'm not. I have a motorcycle.

1887
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:10,700
It never gets ridden.

1888
01:42:10,700 --> 01:42:13,500
It sits in my garage with a sheet over it.

1889
01:42:13,500 --> 01:42:14,300
It's not my thing.

1890
01:42:14,300 --> 01:42:17,800
It never really was my thing.

1891
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,800
I didn't I didn't despise it.

1892
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:23,400
It just wasn't my thing.

1893
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:30,100
I know there's people that you know, live to ride and ride to live totally cool with that man.

1894
01:42:30,100 --> 01:42:34,400
That's that's that they they generate a lot of enjoyment from that.

1895
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:38,100
It's just wasn't my thing.

1896
01:42:38,100 --> 01:42:41,600
And you know, the second half of your question, what do I do now?

1897
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:46,200
I coach high school football, which I get a lot of joy from.

1898
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:48,700
I'm not the greatest football coach by any means.

1899
01:42:48,700 --> 01:42:54,300
I probably get more from the kids I coach than I give back to them.

1900
01:42:54,300 --> 01:42:58,400
To be quite honest, I like I enjoy being around them.

1901
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:00,400
I enjoy seeing them achieve.

1902
01:43:00,400 --> 01:43:08,400
I enjoy seeing them improve and succeed and thrive and and see the result of commitment

1903
01:43:08,400 --> 01:43:10,600
and hard work and how it impacts them.

1904
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:14,900
I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.

1905
01:43:14,900 --> 01:43:19,400
I do some writing. I do like I do like I do some consulting in the entertainment industry

1906
01:43:19,400 --> 01:43:22,700
and film and television.

1907
01:43:22,700 --> 01:43:28,100
And. You know, that's I do some public speaking.

1908
01:43:28,100 --> 01:43:34,800
I speak at police conferences and I speak at law enforcement events and some corporate events.

1909
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:40,100
And between all those three things, I'm as busy as I can be.

1910
01:43:40,100 --> 01:43:44,000
Excellent. Are you happy now?

1911
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:48,500
I am. You know what? I laugh and smile every day,

1912
01:43:48,500 --> 01:43:52,700
even on the days probably when I'm not supposed to or when things are happening

1913
01:43:52,700 --> 01:43:56,800
that should prevent me from doing that, because when it comes down to it,

1914
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:01,600
is that like we have to make ourselves happy.

1915
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:07,400
Like you can't rely and depend on someone else to make you happy.

1916
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:08,900
We have to do it to ourselves.

1917
01:44:08,900 --> 01:44:12,900
And so there's days when I literally have to force myself to laugh or smile.

1918
01:44:12,900 --> 01:44:15,400
But I do it. I do it.

1919
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:23,400
I try to drive that myself and not not depend on someone else to bring that out in me.

1920
01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:25,700
Yeah, again, it comes back to that gratitude, isn't it?

1921
01:44:25,700 --> 01:44:29,500
If you can find the joy in what you do have instead of what you don't have.

1922
01:44:29,500 --> 01:44:35,000
That's how you get to that happiness piece, even if things are kind of shitty at that moment.

1923
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:39,100
Yeah, and I think that all of us, you know, all of us are we all have our crosses to bear.

1924
01:44:39,100 --> 01:44:43,900
Everyone's dealing with the situations in their life.

1925
01:44:43,900 --> 01:44:49,100
And I think we see people who are less fortunate are struggling and we can have

1926
01:44:49,100 --> 01:44:52,200
and we should have empathy and compassion for them.

1927
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:56,700
And we should try to help them if and when we can.

1928
01:44:56,700 --> 01:44:59,900
But the bottom line is, is that we all have our own problems.

1929
01:44:59,900 --> 01:45:02,500
We're all dealing with the problems in our life.

1930
01:45:02,500 --> 01:45:08,000
And whether they be good or bad, that there are responsibility.

1931
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:13,300
And so you see other people out there that that have issues.

1932
01:45:13,300 --> 01:45:17,700
Like I said, we should be empathetic towards those people and compassionate towards them.

1933
01:45:17,700 --> 01:45:20,900
But you still got to handle your but you still got to live your life.

1934
01:45:20,900 --> 01:45:22,600
Absolutely. All right.

1935
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:26,100
Well, if people listening want to want to find the books, want to reach out to you,

1936
01:45:26,100 --> 01:45:28,500
what's the best place for them to go online?

1937
01:45:28,500 --> 01:45:33,300
Yeah, the easiest way is I have a website and that everything is pretty much self-contained.

1938
01:45:33,300 --> 01:45:36,900
It's just JDobbins.com.

1939
01:45:36,900 --> 01:45:39,700
It's J-A-Y-D-O-B-Y-N-S.

1940
01:45:39,700 --> 01:45:45,100
And there's you know, there's background information there and there's links to my books.

1941
01:45:45,100 --> 01:45:49,800
And and I appreciate you throwing that out there.

1942
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:56,900
And if anybody's interested and wants to, you know, get on their computer and look that up,

1943
01:45:56,900 --> 01:45:58,700
pretty easy to find.

1944
01:45:58,700 --> 01:46:02,500
Brilliant. Well, I also want to say a shout out to Greg Armisen as well,

1945
01:46:02,500 --> 01:46:07,400
because when I interviewed him a while ago, you were the person he recommended to come on the show as well.

1946
01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:11,300
So I want to say thank you to Greg. But yeah, he's amazing.

1947
01:46:11,300 --> 01:46:15,200
Greg's another one of those guys and Greg's got a bunch of books out there that are really good.

1948
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:20,100
And talk about a guy who walks the walk.

1949
01:46:20,100 --> 01:46:23,700
Like that dude is 100% legit.

1950
01:46:23,700 --> 01:46:29,300
Like he lives every day, every second of every day.

1951
01:46:29,300 --> 01:46:32,800
He lives the life that he talks about.

1952
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:36,100
There's nothing counterfeit or fake about that dude.

1953
01:46:36,100 --> 01:46:39,700
Yeah, and you can tell just from talking to him, he's just so passionate about everything he does.

1954
01:46:39,700 --> 01:46:41,300
And like you said, so positive.

1955
01:46:41,300 --> 01:46:42,000
There's no hate.

1956
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:45,900
There's no piss and vinegar to anything that we talked about in the interview.

1957
01:46:45,900 --> 01:46:53,100
He was just, you know, just so driven to make the world better and to, you know,

1958
01:46:53,100 --> 01:46:54,700
spread the word of what he believes as well.

1959
01:46:54,700 --> 01:46:57,000
And he's so passionate about that too.

1960
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:59,600
Yeah, Greg's one of those guys.

1961
01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:03,100
I actually became friends with Greg and Jason Redman, you know,

1962
01:47:03,100 --> 01:47:09,600
in another amazing interview that you should chase is Josh Manns.

1963
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:15,600
Josh was shot and literally died on a battlefield in Afghanistan

1964
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:20,300
and was brought back to life by an amazing medical team

1965
01:47:20,300 --> 01:47:27,900
and has taken those events and translates them to the rest of us to be inspired by.

1966
01:47:27,900 --> 01:47:34,700
But Jason and Greg Iman and Josh Manns, I met those guys all at the same time.

1967
01:47:34,700 --> 01:47:39,400
And I'm like just a huge fan of those guys.

1968
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:43,500
Along with, you know, like we mentioned Jason Sheckley, Chris Shields.

1969
01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:50,200
Those are guys that I look up to that are heroes for me that I try to be

1970
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:56,900
and wish I could be as good of people and as good of men as they are.

1971
01:47:56,900 --> 01:48:00,000
And they set great examples for all of us.

1972
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:04,000
Yeah, well you have to and I just want to kind of close this interview by saying,

1973
01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:08,600
you know, when I read the books and I have my little answer cheat sheet in front of me,

1974
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:11,000
you know, what I was going to ask you.

1975
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:15,500
And then as we got talking, I realized that like I said, you know, your story is out there.

1976
01:48:15,500 --> 01:48:17,000
The books have been written.

1977
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:21,500
But what I got from this is like you said, it's not an act.

1978
01:48:21,500 --> 01:48:26,100
From the outside, you look like you're a perfect fit to infiltrate a bike gang.

1979
01:48:26,100 --> 01:48:30,800
But the reality is you're incredibly kind, compassionate person who, you know,

1980
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:35,800
stayed on the right side even though you were deep undercover who, you know,

1981
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,700
showed moments of compassion like we talked about with Kevin Hatton.

1982
01:48:38,700 --> 01:48:41,700
And that was the person that I really wanted to explore today.

1983
01:48:41,700 --> 01:48:48,000
And it's just been an absolute joy to talk to you and hear your opinion after such a huge career

1984
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:53,500
and such a terrifying, you know, job in my opinion to come out the other end.

1985
01:48:53,500 --> 01:48:58,700
Certainly, you know, not being treated well by certain members of your organization

1986
01:48:58,700 --> 01:49:01,500
and to still have the attitude that you have.

1987
01:49:01,500 --> 01:49:05,000
It was like I said, it was an honor to talk to you and I appreciate you taking the time

1988
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:07,300
to reach out to the audience.

1989
01:49:07,300 --> 01:49:35,300
That's very kind. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed our conversation.