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Welcome guys to episode 311 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this week I'm extremely excited to welcome on the

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show educator, speaker and author Pasi Sahlberg.

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Now Pasi is originally from Finland where he grew up in a family of teachers and then

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became an educator himself.

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Then found himself traveling to America, currently lives in Australia and really got a global

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perspective of what was working and what was not working in different areas of education

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around the globe.

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So he began to do talks, began to write books.

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His most recent one, Let the Children Play is the one that I read prior to this interview

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and I personally as a father, as a parent who has tried to be very involved with my

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son's school, have observed some things that we do very well here and some things that

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I think we could do better.

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As with the prison systems in Norway and the drug policy in Portugal, topics that we've

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covered in the past, I think that much of what Pasi talks about really brings the solutions

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to some of the problems that we're having in the UK, in the US, Australia and I think

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we can do it better and that's the whole point.

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We want our children to be educated, we want them to be inspired, we want them to want

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to go to school and I don't think there's any better time than now when so many of us

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are now homeschooling our children.

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So this is a great time to reflect.

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Please take the time to listen.

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I think there's so much great information out there that empowers us as parents, empowers

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our schools, our teachers to just start questioning some of the ways we do things, some of the

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history behind those ways and how we can learn from other systems, other countries and improve

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our own.

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So before we get to that interview, as I always say, please just take a moment, go to whichever

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app you listen to this podcast on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback.

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I love reading your feedback and then leave a rating.

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The five star ratings really do make us more and more visible for people looking for a

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podcast like this.

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And as I said, this is a free library.

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So it's for you, the listener, use it personally, use it in your department.

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And all I ask in return is just to help share.

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The more people that hear these incredible stories, including Pasi's, the more positive

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change we're going to make in the world.

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So that being said, I introduce to you Pasi Saalberg.

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Enjoy.

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So Pasi, I want to start by saying thank you so, so much for taking the time to come on

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the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Thank you very much, James.

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It's my pleasure, really.

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Right.

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So let's get to the first question, where are we finding you on planet Earth today?

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I just woke up in Sydney, Australia.

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This is where I live now.

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I've been here a year and a half.

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So this is a beautiful sunny morning in the May morning when we are heading towards the

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winter here.

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But it's not that much of the winter compared to where I come from, which is Finland.

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Yeah, perfect.

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Well, let's talk about that.

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So I'd love to hear about where in Finland you were born and what your family dynamic

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was like, what your parents did.

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Yeah, I was born a long time ago in the northern part of Finland in a small town called Oulu,

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where my parents, where my father was a teacher and my mother was a teacher actually as well.

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And we moved when I was about two years old to a small village about 100 miles south from

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Oulu, but still very, very much north where I was raised in a family of teachers living

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actually in a village primary school.

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So education has been a big part of my life ever since.

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Right.

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Now in one of your talks, you mentioned about your grandfather and how he came to the US.

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Yeah, I have a kind of interesting connection to the United States.

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My grandfather, my father's father left Finland like many, many others in Scandinavia in 1914

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just before the war and went to New York, settled down in New Jersey and got a great

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education in Brooklyn, I guess it was, and then happened to come back when Finland became

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independent in 1917.

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So he returned back just to see his father and some relatives in 1920s and then met his

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wife, my grandmother and never returned.

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But he was an American citizen until really the second world war when he decided to give

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the citizenship away so that he could stay in Finland.

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So that's my connection to the US.

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We have his grandfather was another amazing person.

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He traveled in 1839.

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He left Helsinki and went all the way across around South America to Alaska.

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That is now of course the part of the United States, but that time it was part of Russia

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and Finland was part of Russia as well.

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So he went there.

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He was a passionate natural scientist and medical doctor.

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And he was curious about the nature and the bugs and birds and others.

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And I guess, you know, when I look at my past, I probably got much more from those, my grandfather

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and great, great grandfather than actually from my parents regarding this kind of a tribe

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that I have internationally to go from one place to another.

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That among many other places took me here in Australia a few years ago.

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Yeah.

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I think it sounds like the curiosity side is probably something you got from them to

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try and look outside the box as it were.

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Absolutely.

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Yes.

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All right.

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Well then I know obviously Finland is more of a northern country.

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What did your kind of sports and athletics that like when you were in school?

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Well, you know, if you grew up in an environment where I grew up, it's a little bit like asking

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Canadians, what sports did you do when you were young?

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There's only one answer.

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And that's ice hockey.

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I used to do a lot of all kinds of winter sports because that was really the thing to

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do.

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That time they were not really indoor facilities for doing something like basketball or anything

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else.

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So it was ice hockey and football in the summer.

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I was doing a lot of sports, riding my bicycles.

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I still do, but I was a passionate cyclist that time as well with my little bike went

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all over the place.

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But my best memories are of course from playing ice hockey outdoors in the middle of the winter

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when it's really cold and you can be together with your friends and just play hockey.

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Yeah.

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That's funny.

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I think every single Canadian I've had on the show so far has said the same thing.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Okay.

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Then what about career wise?

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So you had parents who were both teachers.

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Were you already planning on teaching when you were still in school?

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No, I didn't actually realize that very much until I had been teaching for a few years.

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Of course in Finland if you decide to become a teacher, it's not such a question that it

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is in the United States, for example, where the common reaction would be that you didn't

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really figure out anything better to do.

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Because back home if somebody wants to become a teacher, it's like a noble thing.

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The question that why did you become a teacher was not really asked often as it is in many

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other countries.

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But of course afterwards now when I think about it, being born and raised basically

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in a school building, living in a school building and having 100% of your time surrounded by

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things related to school and teaching and learning and then having parents who do that

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for profession.

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Of course it left a kind of a positive mark in me when I started to think about what to

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do in my life.

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But my first love really was mathematics and science.

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This is the natural sciences, physics and chemistry and all those things that you can

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see around.

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That's of course something that I had no idea where this comes from until I studied a little

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bit about what all my ancestors had been doing.

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My father's side of family is full of these natural scientists and biologists and others

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who had been traveling around the world 150 years ago.

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So afterwards when I started to think about how did I ended up doing what I do, the answer

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was easy that the environment where I was raised as a child, a very positive one, I

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really loved having space and having a privilege to not just go to school but live in a school.

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And then on the other side through the DNA, this passion to look at the nature and environment

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and mathematics as well.

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It took me to study mathematics and naturally if you can combine the passion and love that

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you have into one to teach mathematics and science, that's exactly what happened to me

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and that's how I ended up in doing what I'm doing right now.

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Yeah.

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So I know you mentioned in one of the conversations that Finland didn't have all the answers when

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it comes to education a few decades ago.

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So when you were at a school age, I'm assuming around 40 or so years ago, what were you seeing

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there and then kind of walk us through Finland's actual evolution in their education system?

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Well, my own school, Memories Room School, referred to very traditional schooling and

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it was not always fun.

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I guess my primary school was somehow fine and okay.

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My father was for a couple of years, he was my teacher and then when I moved to middle

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school and high school, I think schooling for me became more and more kind of a place

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that I didn't quite understand why we are doing these things in a way.

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We were doing very traditional things, teachers teaching and you had to remember stuff whether

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you liked it or you were interested in that or not.

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So one thing that really pushed me to teach in the end was my personal challenge that

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can I do this teaching better than my own teachers?

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I remember thinking sometimes when I was in high school like this, there must be a better

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way to teach English or mathematics, not so much mathematics but many other things like

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foreign languages for example.

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And this all said that the school system and the culture of schools teaching and learning

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was very traditional all the way until I guess when I entered school as a teacher myself

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somewhere in the late 1980s when being a teacher myself, I was kind of a, I don't know if a

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word rebel would be right but you know together with some other young teachers, we were challenging

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many of the traditional things like why do we speak so much?

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Why do we give students a voice or never ask them whether you're interested in these things

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or how would you like to learn this?

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What are the things that you want to learn in school?

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So I guess that the Finland's education system began to open up a little bit to this new

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ideas when I just entered the school and certainly in the early 1990s when many other big changes

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happened around like the Soviet Union collapsed and the whole kind of a daily reality in Finland

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changed completely that we didn't have the Soviet Union anymore there and then we started

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to you know seriously think about being part of the European Union and many other things

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that maybe this is a good reason also for asking these fundamental questions in the

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school as a teacher but how do we teach and what is the role of the students and how do

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we run the schools?

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What is a place called school?

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How children learn and what is knowledge?

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All those basic fundamental things came into the surface of the daily work and lives of

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teachers and I was really privileged to be part of that time when this happened and that

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was the that I often say that was the one of the important parts of the history of Finnish

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schooling.

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Yeah and I think that that's an incredibly important point to make is to look at something

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and before we start recording I talked about Portugal for example and their drug policy

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and them completely reinventing that and having incredible success is getting to that point

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where you realize doing the same thing over and over again isn't working and having the

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humility to say we need to take a step back we need to look at you know what we're doing

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maybe find other places countries whatever it is that appear to be doing it better and

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maybe start implementing some of those ideas into our own system.

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Absolutely yes and the and the United States of course for me has always been a part where

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I have found the most interesting and and pulled ideas for education.

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I remember when I did my when I studied to be a teacher in this was at the University

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of Helsinki and then when I did my PhD a few years later you know most of the literature

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I read most of the books and articles were written by the the people in the United States

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and I came to you as often and I vividly remember you know this was a time when the internet

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was not really that well developed yet you you couldn't have the library access or journal

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articles available in the internet but you know I came I went to United States at least

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once a year with I left Helsinki with an empty suitcase and I came back with my suitcase

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full of books and resources and materials and they were all American ideas and I was

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not the only one there were a lot of other people who did the same when they went to

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conferences in the US or or spent time at the universities we always came back with

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the with the new ideas and and novel thinking about education and schooling and you know

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we made the best use of those those things not everything but you know having such a

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rich collection of thoughts and ideas from from American colleagues was absolutely critically

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important in you know thinking about taking this Finnish education journey journey forward

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and you know this is something that I often think about is that the US the United States

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was actually from the education perspective also built on foreign ideas from Germany and

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Europe in the 19th century and 20th century as well but the but the United States overall

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has been much very different in this respect of you know learning from others and seeing

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what the others do than Finland or the Scandinavian countries overall and that's why I often say

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that you know big reason why why we Finland came up in in near 2000 after 20 years ago

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as a as a high performing successful education system is exactly because of these these new

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ideas that we were able to transport from the US and think about them and consider them

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in our own context and then say that you know we don't need to reinvent the wheel again

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you know this is a great idea let's do something about it and this this really happens in the

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United States anymore because everything is thought to be discovered in America and and

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that's kind of an exchange of of ideas when it comes to education and thinking about what

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works and what do we need to do is something that is very different today than it was earlier

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in the United States and Finland as well.

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Yeah I remember a story and I might have a president wrong I think it was President Roosevelt

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but after World War II they were posturing to put universal health care here in America

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and they ended up putting it I believe in Japan and I think it was Germany as well but

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then the I think he you know he passed away and then the successor basically got rid of

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it and you know so obviously that in my opinion coming from England where I think that health

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care system is incredible if it's supported properly by the by the people that fund it

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it seems like politics got in the way now you refer to several pioneers in education

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that were American and you showed clips of some of them talking in in one presentation

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that I watched what were the barriers that these great American education thinkers weren't

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able to get their ideas implemented into our system here in the US or for example say the

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UK?

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That's a that's a good question that I think people people who have longer and deeper understanding

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about these cultures can can answer I I've never really figured out for example in the

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United States where I've lived almost 10 years in the two different times and so I I know

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something about the US but I still don't understand this particular fact that there are so many

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world-class really brilliant thinkers and doers in the United States that are basically

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ignored when it comes to their advice and understanding and insight into education.

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Just to mention one Howard Gardner who with who I had a had an honor really to work at

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the Harvard Graduate School of Education a few years ago repeatedly said to me that he

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is he is regularly invited to advise prime ministers and education authorities around

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the world about education and reforming you know rebuilding education but not in the United

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States he said that no no US states educational authorities let alone the federal Washington

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DC educators you know those policymakers have asked him to come and have a conversation

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about you know what his science and research findings would mean from for for the United

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States and that you know this list is long that they are they are scores of American

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scholars and people who have been reforming education influencing education around the

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world who spend most of their time working overseas and helping assisting others but

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not in the US and you know this is this is something that I really don't understand why

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is that it may be that education is more politicized in in the US is much more politicized than

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in many many other countries meaning that these big decisions you know who can who can

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have a word who can have an influence are much more decided by political figures in

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in administration than educators and that's that's the big big thing and in England as

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well I often think that maybe it's because of the something to do with this political

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system where where the countries that have basically just two possible large parties

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that people can vote red or blue or black and white whatever they are often find themselves

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in a situation where education decisions cannot be built on the kind of a previous political

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ideas because that's that would be dangerous politically to do but in Scandinavia for example

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if you look at Norway or Finland or Sweden any of these wonderful countries that when

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you have a multi-party democracy where where there are no no two major parties that rule

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it's easier to end up in a in a kind of a situation where you can build consensus or

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think across the the political boundaries and just you know identify good ideas whether

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they are your own country or somewhere else and then then move on I I would say that the

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the education education is political everywhere but it's much less politicized in in countries

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like the Nordic countries are than it is in here in Australia or or Canada or United States

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or UK or England I must say yeah and I think it's it's tragic and like I said I come from

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England myself originally in Umber as a young boy watching the two sides as you mentioned

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just waving papers and shouting at each other seemingly getting absolutely nowhere and then

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you know we come come here to the US and even even the political elements the the commercials

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that they're allowed to have here is nothing but the other person is an idiot that's it

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you know it's it's not not even any content you don't even learn about what these other

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people stand for and I think that it does completely get in the way and and issues that

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they are arguing about I believe you can solve when our nation our children whether it's

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addiction mental health violence I mean all these elements and yet there doesn't seem

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to be a focus of proactively trying to positively affect our you know boys and girls so then

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they in turn are going to bloom and flourish mostly into you know higher functioning citizens

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that's right right well then I would love to firstly and then again generalizing Australia

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the the UK the US what are some areas that you are seeing like common denominators that

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you think are creating a negative impact on children's you know their learning ability

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their mental health physical health all these elements that you're seeing yeah that's it's

303
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a great question I think I think you know the language here plays a a big role because it's

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interesting if if you if you take a look at the education thinking and and kind of a models

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of schooling in the countries where English is is the first language and often the only

306
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language that people speak they interestingly share many many similar things in my books

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and writings I've been speaking about the global educational reform movement that comes

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is a kind of a set of collection of educational principles and ideas that are common to countries

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and education systems that interestingly have not been able to create or generate any any

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positive significantly positive or successful outcomes and those those are often exactly

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the countries and the systems there that you mentioned so so it may be that there's something

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in the language that it's easy to it's easy to take ideas or policies or or things from

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England for example and then transport those to Australia and the United States New Zealand

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Canada South Africa other places where the language is already there it's much harder

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to take a British idea in education and take it to Norway or Finland because they have

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to be translated and you know still people in many other countries they don't they even

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if they can and read and understand English but they don't use English in in a way that

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most people think like like many Americans think that everybody understands English but

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it's a global and the best language in the world which is not true but but English is

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not used in the same way in different different countries so so that's why I think it's a

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kind of a interesting that we can see some of those ideas that have been spreading around

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the English-speaking world world and at the same time now when we have more evidence and

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data from different education systems partly because of the the organizations like OECD

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and UN organizations and partly because the education research has been much more focusing

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on those things that that you know some things that originally came from places like England

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or the and then have been intensified in the United States like the role of standardized

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testing that in in theory is a good thing but in practice when it's implemented often

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turns out to be not so great or the strong accountability for schools and teachers that

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is often linked to the standardized tests or standardizing teaching you know having

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this idea that we we need to have clear and high enough standards for each and every child

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so that we can make sure that every every child will learn what they need to learn in

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a school around the world and you know many of those ideas that have that they have been

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accepted almost as if they were universally true that forms this essence of the the global

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educational reform movement that has turned out to be a problematic for for the education

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systems outcomes or success but also has caused a lot of unintended consequences at the level

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of individual learners and children and teachers as well like for example most of these

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countries that you mentioned the US, England, Australia here many others have had now for

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several years a kind of a chronic issue with the the teaching profession that has turned

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out to be something that nobody wants to do that nobody wants to be a teacher very few

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people actually want to seriously like I did consider teaching as their their life career

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and profession and it's often it's not not primarily because of the pay it's not primarily

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because of anything else it's mostly because teachers feel they are forced to do things

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that are no good for for the children or their families or the communities for example testing

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children with a standardized poor standardized tests that have very little to do with the

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with the children's learning or well-being or happiness or life in general so so that's

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you know I would associate much of this rapid and fluent transfer of these often bad ideas

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in education to the language and when we had a internet's commonly available for policy

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making and and educators 20 years ago 25 years ago it just accelerated the spread of these

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ideas around the world and you know when I teach my doctoral students here or anywhere

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I always I kind of insist them to also code and look at the literature in other languages

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it may be maybe French or Spanish or Chinese or or German or Swedish or Portuguese whatever

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it is just to realize that how different the the narrative about the education often is

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in different countries like if I give you example here in the from the Nordic countries

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for example if you if you're a student here in Australia or the United States and you

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only read English language literature books and journal articles you get a very different

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idea of what's happening in the schools around the world then if you for example if you were

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able to read and understand Swedish or Finnish or the Scandinavian languages and you call

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what what the people writes there that is you know primarily about students well-being

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and health and and even before the this coronavirus pandemic that it was all about you know happiness

360
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and well-being and health and play and you know the role of us and music and physical

361
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education all those important things and you completely miss if you are not able to understand

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and read the the other languages so that's why I think language is extremely important

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for anybody who really wants to understand the world of schooling to go and look at what's

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what's happening in different parts of the world now it's easy because you can basically

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Google translate much of the stuff if you want to do that just to get an idea what's

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happening there and we could have avoided many of these things that we now see we are

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kind of stuck in the United States in this standardization testing accountability trap

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and the same thing here in Australia and England and many other countries if we had had this

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luxury of you know having a broader look at the world and what the other countries are

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doing yeah and it's it's very interesting with standardized testing my little boy is

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12 now and we have what's called the FSA is here in Florida and he has gone from from

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struggling academically to working his way up where he's kind of mentally caught up now

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and he's been getting A's and B's on the honor roll they call them here and then still

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doing horrendously on the standardized tests and it really kind of and I asked that the

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kids they don't enjoy the testing I mean these poor some of these kids are like eight and

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they're sitting in front of a computer for four hours taking these tests which is just

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ridiculous the teachers hate the way they have to teach the parents aren't happy either

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because of it so I've yet to find anyone in this group that actually likes standardized

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tests yet they've been a part of our education for years and I kind of almost parallel it

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to the cholesterol numbers from 20 years ago where if you had a cholesterol and it was

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this number then you immediately get put on on medicine and now they've realized that

382
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was complete rubbish complete crap and that your number doesn't dictate your health and

383
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if you were a perfectly healthy person with good blood pressure and good body weight that

384
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happened to have a cholesterol number this way it didn't mean that you are going to automatically

385
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get a heart attack.

386
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Yeah that's right I often say that the standardized tests are often often like measuring your

387
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body temperature with a teaspoon that it doesn't really it doesn't really tell you much but

388
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at the same time I think we need to be we need to be mindful with this conversation

389
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about standardized tests because they are I think that the the standardized assessments

390
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are important in order to you know tell us how the system education systems are working

391
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but the problem is that standardized assessments in the United States and certainly here in

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Australia are misused they're used in the multiple purposes that they were never never

393
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designed to do and they often come with the unintended negative consequences that you

394
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mentioned as well so so so this conversation about the question whether standardized tests

395
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are good or bad is a wrong question I think the the right question is that what would

396
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a a good modern high quality standardized student assessment look like for example at

397
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the level of the state of Florida or here in Australia and rather than say that we have

398
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to abolish everything and and you know for example the the case of Finland we often hear

399
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this what I call fake news about Finland that we don't have standardized tests there but

400
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that's not actually correct because there's a lot of standardized assessments going on

401
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:21,640
but they are they are designed in a way to have zero stakes for teachers or children

402
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or the schools because they these tests are carried out as a kind of a sampling sample

403
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based assessments where just like when when we are asking whether the people are healthy

404
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,880
in our country or nation or not we are not testing everybody for example use the cholesterol

405
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,880
thing that we are not testing everyone we are testing as kind of a sample of represent

406
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of the sample of people and this is exactly what more advanced education systems are doing

407
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when it comes to standardized testing that they they take the represent of this sample

408
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,880
of kids they they run a high quality assessments that are looking many more things than just

409
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less reading and mathematics and science on these children and then analyze the data and

410
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just like in a health we are saying that you know this is what what the state of health

411
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in this particular issue is in the country we can say the same thing that you know this

412
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is how the kids in our country are learning it's a little bit like the the NAPE the the

413
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National Educational Assessment Program in the United States that is testing testing

414
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:36,120
sample of kids not all of them and that's a good there's a good way to carry out standardized

415
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:42,760
testing but just simply saying that standardized testing is bad idea it's a too it's too too

416
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fast conclusion actually yeah and that makes perfect sense so it's so the the way that

417
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you use it in in Scandinavia is a standardized test is a litmus test to to get an overview

418
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of how effective the overall system is doing but it's not being used to allow a child to

419
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move up a grade or to to send funding to a certain school for example yeah or they determine

420
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the quality of schools that are often seen in different countries like here for example

421
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that there is often media but but also the the the authorities and and parents are kind

422
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of determining concluding the how good schools are based on the standardized test results

423
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of the kids and you know the basic thing in psychometrics is that that you cannot you

424
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,280
cannot say anything at all about the quality of school or teaching in the school by looking

425
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at the the standardized test results because the the test results actually reflect the

426
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so many other things than what the teachers or what the school is doing including the

427
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:54,000
parents role and the family background and the community and many other things yeah and

428
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,700
obviously that's another entire conversation that i want to kind of interweave yeah because

429
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:04,040
i mean that's right now i think people are being made more aware than ever about their

430
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role in their child's education because we're all at home with our children i think the

431
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,520
ones that have always been hand-on are probably doing okay and the ones that haven't are probably

432
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,120
realizing the value of the the schools they've been sending their children on the yellow

433
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:23,360
bus for the last 10 years yeah right so then um i want to get to to play in a moment but

434
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,600
just speaking of standardized testing because it kind of it it aligns to this next question

435
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:37,600
um we have a lot of reports here where for example uh a lower um income area of you know

436
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:44,320
a city or a county uh sometimes doesn't get the same funding as other areas and i'm correct

437
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,560
me if i'm wrong i believe in the book you kind of address that that that there should

438
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,520
be you know and it makes perfect sense there should be the same amount of funding if not

439
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,520
more for areas that are struggling to support those children that maybe don't have as good

440
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:03,120
support at home to make sure that it isn't an economic bias when it comes to these formative

441
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,880
few years of our school children so what are some of the things that finland does to to

442
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,600
address some of the poorer areas when it comes to education

443
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:22,960
uh yeah absolutely on spot with the um uh with this question and and the introduction to this

444
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,880
question as as well um and the you know the united states is not the only place this uh this country

445
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:37,280
here australia has for many years had a kind of a funding arrangement that is is um giving more

446
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,360
money to actually those schools that would would be okay to do with a little bit less

447
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:50,320
and then there are a lot of a lot of schools mostly mostly public schools in this country that are

448
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:57,280
heavily underfunded given the the kind of students and and communities that they serve but

449
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:04,080
you know finland finland is a different story because uh this this was already in the 1970s

450
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:16,160
when when again the the the political political decision was concluded um and it was not easy it

451
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:22,720
was a conclusion after a a number of years of debates and and considerations that since

452
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:30,480
uh finland is a small country and uh it doesn't have natural resources like many others have

453
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:37,200
norway for example oil and gas or fish that we the only thing we have if we want to if we want to

454
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,400
you know catch up the the other advanced economies and countries is to cultivate

455
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,800
our human capital the people that are in a country so that's why that's that's how the the the

456
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:59,600
the argument for importance to have a education good education system was late of about 50 years

457
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,880
ago and then of course the question is that how do we how do we make sure that all these people

458
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,720
you know finland that time had about four and a half five million people uh how do we make sure

459
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:17,120
all of them are well educated and of course this the the conclusion was the same kind of a similar

460
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:23,280
thing that the united states had had long hundred years ago about the equality of educational

461
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:30,720
opportunity or even even more than that i think cause um cause back to president jefferson or

462
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:39,920
something even longer than that um and i i think the the basic understanding was that you know if

463
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,960
we really want to be successful with every child all the children that was a assumption and

464
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:52,320
requirement in finland then we have to understand that some kids and some communities need different

465
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,360
type of education or more resources and more support and help and arrangements to support

466
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,160
their learning than the others and the only way to do that is to make sure that the the the funding

467
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:07,200
how the schools are funded in different communities is based not on how many children there are

468
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:14,160
uh or how well they do in the school as it is in some some places still but where they come from

469
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,720
and who are they who are these children and the and this is how the how the system was designed

470
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:31,120
um or changed in the 1970s and 80s that the schools basically received resourcing and funding based on

471
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,720
the children and and parents and communities that they were serving that led then very quickly

472
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:40,880
particularly in urban areas like helsinki for example there is the biggest

473
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:50,080
local education system in finland um where they now speak about they call it a positive discrimination

474
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:56,720
of schools which means that the schools within the the city of helsinki will receive a very

475
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:02,880
different amounts of money based on what type of children they have there are some schools where

476
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:10,320
the vast majority of children are non-finish speaking or swedish speaking children they were

477
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,880
born somewhere probably outside of finland and they speak different languages at home

478
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:23,920
immigrants refugees and others and those schools get significantly more funding to make sure that

479
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,280
funding to make sure that they're able to do good things and necessary things with these kids compared

480
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:37,040
to communities and schools where these characteristics of the the student makeup are

481
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:44,000
are different so i think is critically important and this is well understood in the united states

482
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,800
as well there has been a work going on this this equitable funding in different states

483
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:56,160
um for for several years already and it's a big conversation here in australia now so it

484
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,680
basically people understand and it's a common sense that you know if you have

485
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:06,400
you know if you if you have a school where most of your children don't speak english or finnish

486
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:15,120
or if you have a school where most of the parents are not employed permanently or if you have a

487
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:24,880
school where the the level of income in the family income is not high enough to kind of maintain a

488
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:31,040
steady and safe family circumstances of course you need more the schools need to do more and

489
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,200
schools need more resources not only money but they need people different types of people there

490
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:41,760
and you cannot do that if the the schools continue to be funded based on how many how many children

491
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,880
they're serving or how good the kids are learning in the school so that's that's why it's absolutely

492
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:52,080
critically important and there's probably no more important thing to make american schools

493
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:58,880
more equitable and when they come more equitable meaning that the children's family background

494
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:04,960
wouldn't determined and be the reason for educational failure or plot the success

495
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:12,880
um so so that's that's a kind of a key to towards the becoming world-class education system that

496
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,840
many people in the united states kind of a desire and that's at the same time that has been one

497
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:25,360
reason why finland has been so successful is to take this equity and equality of opportunity

498
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:31,440
literally and seriously and starting from funding funding is not the only thing but starting you're

499
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,400
making sure that the schools get the resources and funding based on who they serve who are the

500
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:42,960
people there and then build on all the other things on that yeah well that's great to hear and i think

501
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,760
that there's something i talk about a lot as a firefighter paramedic you know we see a lot of

502
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,160
these homes and i've worked most of my career i worked in the poorest areas of the cities or

503
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:57,840
counties that i worked in and you know you see these these little boys these little girls and

504
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:03,680
girls and not saying that there's a lost cause but you can tell that the the the chances the

505
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:11,280
probability of them finding themselves around a positive path is definitely less than for example

506
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,000
myself i grew up on a farm in england i was i was guided very well towards not being a criminal not

507
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:22,320
being an addict not being going into prostitution you know gangs whatever it was and so the way you

508
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,320
break the cycle is again at the schools and if you invest in these young men and women and their

509
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,640
backgrounds and like you said if they're immigrants creating an opportunity for them to learn and

510
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:37,840
communicate then that next generation is gonna is gonna is gonna minimize the amount of people

511
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:45,120
that then take that that stray path when when they have children but if we move funds away from those

512
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:50,800
those children you're allowing that cycle to repeat itself which long term for the country is

513
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,960
going to cost them a huge amount and it's going to increase crime and and it's you know it's a

514
00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:01,040
completely horrific vicious cycle instead of investing in your communities now so that you

515
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,520
know the the world that our grandchildren grow up in is completely different than the one we are in

516
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:12,400
now yeah yeah absolutely and and you know the um i often hear people there especially in the

517
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,440
united states saying that there's nothing we can do that you can never you can never fix these

518
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,520
underlying inequalities in the society and poverty and and you know those things but

519
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:29,200
that you know this is the only thing that we can try and this is the only thing that we know works

520
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,360
to make sure that the schools where that is basically the only place where all the children

521
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:43,200
will spend significant time of their lives that the schools would be prepared to provide all that

522
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,560
help and and support and unnecessary things that the kids need and you know this is where we

523
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:54,560
where we also come come to the conversation of what is the purpose of the school what is the school

524
00:47:54,560 --> 00:48:02,800
for in in a communities like this we cannot we cannot assume that uh when the school is having

525
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:11,040
a lot of children who come from fragile or broken um home circumstances that they would be able to do

526
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:17,760
similar things in the same way as the affluent school in another neighborhood that the school

527
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:27,760
needs to have strong focus on students health and and health and well-being and and mental

528
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:34,240
kind of services and support and dental help you know all these things that the many other kids

529
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:42,240
are missing when they are when they are at home or the for for any reason that the the family is

530
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:47,120
not able to to do that and this was this is exactly the thing they thinking that finland and this all

531
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,520
the scandinavian countries had already long time ago that if the kids if the kids don't get what

532
00:48:53,520 --> 00:49:00,000
they need at home for any reason whatever it is the school is the place to do that and and rather

533
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:08,880
than send children away from school to be helped or taken care by some mothers the beautiful thing

534
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:14,880
in the finnish and scandinavian system is that the schools are offering all those services to

535
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:20,640
children every day everywhere so that the kids don't need to move and and go to another place

536
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:27,600
to be helped that that's the school that does that but it's still you know in many places i

537
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:34,320
remember spending time in the united states when i when i was in the conversations like this people

538
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,040
said but that's not what the school should be doing the school is a place for teaching reading

539
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:44,720
and mathematics and some other things and then we have you know the other institutions that will

540
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:49,680
you know provide the other help i said why why you say that you know why the school couldn't

541
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:55,200
be the place where where we we would look at children holistically like a whole child thing

542
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,040
not just a you know teaching them something that you know helping them to

543
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:06,000
learn to live a good life and heal themselves and and make sure that the conditions to learn

544
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,400
in the first place would be there and there are countries that are doing that systematically and

545
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,760
have been doing that for a long time and and and those education systems are often places

546
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,840
where there is more equity and there's more well-being that is becoming a big kind of a

547
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,320
measurable thing as well when we are comparing education systems so it's not just a literacy

548
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:34,960
and numeracy but this is also students' well-being and engagements interest in in schooling that in

549
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:41,600
the future will will make a difference when we are answering the questions that where are things done

550
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:47,920
in in a good way when it comes to schooling yeah no i agree 100% i think if you ask anyone

551
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,160
what is who is your favorite teacher and you are you know they say whoever and then you ask them

552
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,960
what was it about that teacher it was probably that their lessons were fun or they were engaging

553
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,280
or they took the extra time to help you learn you know it was that human element it wasn't it was

554
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,440
never that they were amazing at algebra you know it was it was the fact that they filled more of

555
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:12,160
a mentor role than a teacher role that's right that's right right well speaking of enjoying

556
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:17,120
classes i think it's a good segue then to get to play so the book you wrote was let the children

557
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:23,040
play and obviously the the title definitely in itself you know speaks volumes about i think many

558
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,120
of the things that we see wrong with with the system and i want to be very clear i love the

559
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:33,600
teachers my my son's teachers are incredible but the system they work in so tell me about um you

560
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:39,200
know the the importance of play and and where again it's it's suppressed in some of our school

561
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:46,480
systems around the world yeah yeah thanks for bringing this this on to this conversation

562
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:54,160
we we wrote with william doyle who is a who is a father and author living in manhattan

563
00:51:54,160 --> 00:52:01,520
um new york city uh about four years ago three years ago we started to work on this um you know

564
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:09,200
the the the thing that really triggered uh us to first think about this topic and then write it

565
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:16,160
the write an entire book about this was the the um notion that we had made in the united states

566
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,960
that was when i when i was living i was living in massachusetts that time that we realized that

567
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:27,680
there are more and more places where um and and educational places like preschools and

568
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:33,840
kindergartens and primary schools where children have less and less time to play we read a lot of

569
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:38,240
statistics and studies and research and we realized that you know this is happening everywhere

570
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:45,440
that that the the time children have to play it when they're in school or in the institutions like

571
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:51,440
like in education was in decline and it had been declining steadily during the last 20 years

572
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:58,400
um and then we went to see that you know what's what's what's happening in the families and it's

573
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:06,320
the same same thing that we we read studies and we spoke to uh tens or hundreds of parents who

574
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:13,840
regularly say that yeah when i was a child myself i used to play much more than my own children play

575
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:21,200
than my own children play today and you know there are good reasons to to um explain why this is

576
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,440
happening some parents say that it's a safety issue some others say that this school is taking

577
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,000
so much time then there were those who say that my children spend so much time with the technology

578
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,680
and media and entertainment that they don't have that they don't want to go out you know you name

579
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:39,120
it there's a lot of things like excuses how it happens but then we came into this kind of a

580
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:44,320
fundamental question that what does it mean when this is happening that the kids don't play anymore

581
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:49,200
uh as they used to play when they were in school the school is much more serious stuff focused on

582
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,920
on performance and learning and competing and accomplishing things and going from one one place

583
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:02,160
to another and and the same thing at home that the the kids are staying indoors more than more

584
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:11,200
than ever they spend less time in the parks and playgrounds and forest and uh you know the the

585
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:19,120
when we realized that what these kids are missing it really we we have to sit down and say that this

586
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:26,160
is this is worth you know writing a writing a book to to uh parents and educators and others that we

587
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:33,040
are we are doing something that is ultimately really going to be really harmful for kids and

588
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:40,800
you don't need to spend much time in looking at the research when you realize the the benefits

589
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:46,640
that the research around the world really has proven of high quality play to have on children

590
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:53,360
not only for the physical development and and well-being but also social

591
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:59,600
um emotional and also interestingly cognitive uh development than the kids when they play when

592
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:06,240
they engage in high quality play daily and regularly that they also learn things that they're

593
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:11,680
supposed to learn in school uh i mean conceptual things science and mathematics and uh this kind

594
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:17,520
of hard stuff that is hard hard to teach better than if they don't uh if they don't play let alone

595
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,800
the the other important skills that we now call 21st century skills like communication and

596
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:28,560
negotiation and empathy and problem solving and creativity all those things they often come with

597
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:36,560
a high quality play so that's that's what we kind of uh said okay let's uh let's look take a look

598
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,040
around the world and see what's what is happening not only in the united states but

599
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,800
around the world and we put together the story of the power of

600
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:50,640
play how how play can benefit all children if we take it seriously and this is not this is not

601
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:58,640
just a call for schools to let the children play more but this it's it's equally targeted to to

602
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:05,040
parents and grandparents uh when they raise their own children or grandchildren to remember that

603
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,680
you know whereas schooling of course is important and what the kids learn in school

604
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:16,800
can make a big difference but probably even more important for for all the children is the the

605
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,920
time that they spend on high quality play and i deliberately say high quality play because not

606
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:30,320
all the plays is giving these these benefits that the research and our book is is is sharing the

607
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:39,600
high quality play is where where we are allowing children to decide you know what to do when we are

608
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:46,320
allowing them to be driven by their own intrinsic motivation and and you know enjoy what they do and

609
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:52,640
use their imagination and come up with the you know go with the flow rather than um you know

610
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,600
compared to play that we often see in in schools for example or preschools where the the adult

611
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,560
whether it's a teacher or somebody else who is you know putting the limits and saying that this is

612
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:08,720
what you must do and this is what you cannot do and you have five minutes to you know complete this

613
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:15,440
and and you will be tested or assessed in the end you know this is not what the the high quality

614
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,880
play looks like so that's the kind of a that's the kind of a story of the behind the play and then

615
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:27,520
i think the in the end we really wanted to see what the not just the educators because

616
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:33,200
many of the educators think like this what i've been saying here that the play is important it's

617
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:38,800
a it's a part of the children's natural growth and development and they learn many things and

618
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,000
they can develop many of these important things but then there's this well-being and health part

619
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:50,000
and the you know the group of people that are very important for children's lives and families as

620
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:57,120
well are the children's medical doctors pediatricians and this was one of the one of the most significant

621
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:04,720
findings that we did while writing the book that when we spoke to pediatricians in the

622
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,600
united states and around the world they all said the same thing they all they they all went to

623
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:14,720
the states and around the world they all said the same thing they all they they all were concerned

624
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:20,960
about the the lack of time that children have to play particularly play free play outdoors

625
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:29,360
and they all almost using the similar language were talking about the benefits that the play

626
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:38,880
has on children's overall developments and growth and learning and and that's why that's why we have

627
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:45,120
this little section in the book called the doctor's orders because the pediatricians are actually

628
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:51,440
they have been the most vocal in in reminding teachers and and parents about the importance

629
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:57,200
of play and why is it important and we can often we can often ignore what the teacher is saying to

630
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:05,840
you um even even um even about your own children your own child you can say that but you're just a

631
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:11,120
teacher you know i know my son or my my children better than you do but we rarely say when the

632
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:19,200
pediatricians medical doctors are giving us orders or advice how to how to raise all or help our

633
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:25,520
children we tend to kind of take what the doctors are saying fairly seriously and and often do it

634
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:31,920
very literally what what they are asking to do and that's why i think the the role of

635
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:38,000
pediatricians and medical and well-being experts and health health people today when we think about

636
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:47,120
schooling and educating our kids particularly of course this covid 19 mess that we are living in

637
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:55,040
in now is that we are listening to medical experts advice i think we should have done that much more

638
00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:00,320
earlier but we we need to listen to that very carefully and and hear what they say and then

639
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:07,680
conclude what to do as parents or teachers regarding our own children yeah no i couldn't

640
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,360
agree more i think there's there's all elements of health that we need to pay a lot more attention

641
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:16,720
to when it comes to our children but you you just kind of triggered a thought um in the books that

642
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,960
i showed you before we start recording by one of my other guests is coming up soon yohan harry

643
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:27,760
he talks about one of the biggest um elements of mental health is the feeling of having control

644
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:33,520
over your own life and it kind of occurred to me that play is that open play like you're talking

645
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,840
about not like organized sports where you're being shouted at by a coach and you know have to do

646
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:43,360
things um under their control but the the play that my son actually is very fortunate enough to

647
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,040
do we live in a community and he goes off on his bike for hours at a time with his friends

648
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:53,040
they get to make the rules and it's funny because that probably even parallels how the teachers

649
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:58,800
feel in some of these more um english american standardized testing environments are there and

650
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:04,480
they want to be imaginative they want to get these kids you know imagination fired up but they have

651
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:10,000
to stay in these parameters of some of these standards that they have to teach so in in both

652
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:15,280
of those lanes the the creativity the ability to take control of your own learning i think is a

653
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:23,680
very very important thing that a lot of us miss it is it is very important and that's uh that's

654
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:29,760
what i've seen through my own children as well and um and this this is actually something that

655
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:36,000
i understood only after i left classroom teaching as a teacher that why some some young people were

656
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:43,200
behaving as they as they were behaving they were basically just asking a little bit more room for

657
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:48,640
their own self-regulation and trust you know trusting them to do to do the right things and

658
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:54,800
that's exactly what comes with the with the high quality play just like you said that you know just

659
01:01:54,800 --> 01:02:00,400
just take your children to the forest or playground if you can do that and you know let them let them

660
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,200
hang around i think they in in finland and nudic countries we are much more tolerant as parents

661
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:12,560
and educators to accept that you know sometimes sometimes you know accident may happen and

662
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:21,120
there are risks associated to free unstructured uh play or or learning um but you know there are

663
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,840
many people like myself and i know many parents who say that you know this is exactly how the kids

664
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:30,480
learn when you when you fall down from the tree and you you hurt yourself that's you probably

665
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:36,000
don't do it again and if you never do that you know if you never put uh in a situation where

666
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,120
there's a where there's a kind of a minor risk of you know failing or getting even getting yourself

667
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:48,080
hurt how on earth you can survive in this life that is full of you know surrounded by risks every

668
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:54,080
day when you when you step out and go to the city you take a risk of you know being hit by somebody

669
01:02:54,080 --> 01:03:02,320
or or getting into accident if you don't know if you don't know how to how to you know behave or

670
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:06,800
control your emotions or yourself in a situation like this that's that's a very important thing

671
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:14,320
and that's that's all that comes with the um with the high quality um even even risky play there are

672
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:19,760
some playgrounds here in sydney now that they call it called the themselves risky risky play

673
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:24,960
playgrounds where you can you can really actually as a child you can hurt yourself like a pig type

674
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,640
if you if you don't if you don't know what to do but you know the interesting thing is

675
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:34,240
that when you go and see what the kids do when they when the children realize that you know there's

676
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,960
a there's a kind of a danger here that i may hurt myself they don't they don't go to these things

677
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:45,760
they can they kind of they have much better ability to judge what is safe or how to behave

678
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,560
safely what to do not to hurt yourselves that we parents often believe i'm not talking about

679
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:55,920
100 of kids but most of them and this is it's the same thing in the school that most of the

680
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,640
most of the kids in the school could could you know take much more leadership and ownership

681
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:08,080
uh about the things that would lead to better learning outcomes and well-being than we actually

682
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:14,880
expect because we or the system is so much afraid of you know mistakes or or failure

683
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:21,760
that kind of standardized and put all the safety cards that are possible rather than you know

684
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:26,720
providing the safety that is is a kind of a minimum necessary thing for kids to do and that's why we

685
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:34,000
you know we take away this uh opportunity for kids to self-regulate and self-control themselves and

686
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,160
understand you know how to how to behave and that's that's a kind of unfortunate thing again

687
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:44,640
this goes back to this the power of play thing because the good high quality play outdoors

688
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:51,840
unstructured free play often comes with these elements of of life that the kids can only learn

689
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:56,800
if they go through them by themselves yeah and i think that there's there's a lot of

690
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:03,600
intrinsic reward from challenging these these children i think that's the the reason that

691
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,720
crossfit gyms and some of the the mud runs you know the the the races where they do all the

692
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,760
the you know climbing ropes and climbing over a big you know military walls and that kind of thing

693
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,480
you see a whole bunch of adults that are basically reliving their childhood and the same playing that

694
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,720
and the same playing that they did so you know you look at the google headquarters where they have

695
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,800
you know all kinds of games and richard branson i've already referred to before who by the way

696
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,840
i would love to get on the show one day if you're listening richard um but you know he's he's always

697
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:37,680
hot air ballooning and and kite surfing and you know so i think that that's in all of us to

698
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:44,080
suppress that is crazy and even as firefighters on the fire ground we want to make mistakes in the

699
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:48,720
training ground so that in the real world when there's a fire when there's a life at stake we've

700
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,600
already made those mistakes and that's what the playground is to me it's the forging ground to

701
01:05:53,600 --> 01:06:01,200
create resilient intelligent young men and women yeah yeah exactly right well then speaking of

702
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:07,920
physical exercise um another topic that i've talked about a little bit is is nutrition in schools so

703
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:12,560
with you traveling all over the globe i i personally don't think that we do it very well in

704
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:19,360
america at all i don't think pizza counts as a vegetable personally um what have you seen as far

705
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:25,520
as but officially it does it does yes according to the research but what have you seen as far as

706
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:32,160
the impact of good nutrition in focus and energy levels and a good body weight in in schools around

707
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:39,520
the world well you know this is kind of a silly topic to talk about because you don't need to go

708
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:47,680
further than you know ask your mother or grandmother about how important a healthy good daily nutrition

709
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:53,120
and meal is for you and you hear the truth that we don't we we should not ask for more research

710
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:57,680
research on that but you know this all said it's it's a kind of interesting that

711
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:04,320
there are there are not many countries or education systems around the world that would would do that

712
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:11,360
uh systematically to all the children i mean provide healthy healthy school meal for

713
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:18,880
for all children without without labeling them to um to their family income or where they come from

714
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:26,640
just do it kind of kind of a basic service for children who the school wants to grow up

715
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:35,200
healthy and happy and and and good learners so uh you know not even all the Scandinavian

716
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:42,240
Nordic countries provide a school free school meal today and so the evidence you know we we

717
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:46,080
don't need to and there is evidence there are studies in the United States the Brookings

718
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:54,000
Institute did a study in in California kind of a controlled randomized controlled

719
01:07:54,000 --> 01:08:02,480
um experiment that showed the benefits of healthy meals for children particularly those who come from

720
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:09,200
more disadvantaged families and backgrounds so but i i think that what people often

721
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:17,600
often miss in this conversation of school meals and nutrition and importance you know even accepting

722
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:24,880
that it's important is that um you know the school meal can be much more than just you know filling

723
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:32,800
empty bellies in a school that is often sorry for example here in Australia where where the

724
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:39,840
where the children are bringing school food school within their in their lunch bags that

725
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:45,600
it's just a it's just a quick moment to fill your stomach and that's it the kids don't learn anything

726
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:54,320
about healthy eating the the kind of a table manners how to have have a lunch or dinner with

727
01:08:54,320 --> 01:09:02,160
other people and have a conversation about things um you know most people don't even know where they

728
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:09,920
where the carrot comes from or or cheese or some other things so so i i think that it's important

729
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:16,640
to think about more broadly about this school school meals and and nutrition as a as a part of

730
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:22,160
the almost like a part of the curriculum in a school that kids will learn while they have the

731
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:28,560
school lunch provided by the school um that they learn you know all these other things you know

732
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:40,880
including the um things related to environment how our eating or or leaving food on the table waste

733
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:50,320
how it's impacting our environments um or the global um global issues so i think you know if

734
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:55,920
anybody would think about school meals more holistically again that is it's uh of course

735
01:09:55,920 --> 01:10:02,400
uh of course it's important for for the health and well-being and learning of children in a school

736
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:09,840
but it's also teaching children what it is what the healthy meal and eating looks like

737
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:18,800
or what a situation where where we get together to a social occasion regularly every day with other

738
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:24,080
people in our community what does it look like when we do it and use this this opportunity of

739
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:31,200
togetherness around the school um school meal so there's much more potential there that we can do

740
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:38,560
than people uh people realize but i think as i said earlier that this question whether healthy

741
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:45,200
daily meal is is good for growing young people who are supposed to learn in the school and do all

742
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:49,680
kinds of other things whether it's good or not i think that's something that we should not be

743
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,480
discussing because everybody knows that that is the thing and if you don't believe that just go and

744
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:59,280
just go and take a look at the what children in those school systems like here

745
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:06,080
what they carry with them to school that they call a school lunch i wouldn't no grandmother would

746
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:15,440
recognize that as a kind of a good idea to have a white bread and sugared liquid and candy bars or

747
01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:22,880
something or chips there in your lunch bag and call that a lunch every day i mean every day and then

748
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:29,200
expect that the kids are able to study and move and learn six hours every day with that give me

749
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:36,880
a break so so that's why i think i i think this whole whole school meal thing has to be discussed

750
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:45,360
uh not just the you know feeding children but teaching educating them to understand and respect

751
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,160
what we eat absolutely absolutely and obviously that's why i brought it up but there's a phrase i

752
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:56,000
love don't wait for science to prove what you already know and i think this is a perfect topic

753
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:01,280
for that and when you think about let's say for example in america by the time a child graduates

754
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:06,160
they've been in the school system for 13 years five days a week for you know that the school

755
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:13,200
semesters there is so much opportunity to educate children like you said like not just food but how

756
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:18,880
you know what food is how to prepare food having actual home economics classes so that we can

757
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:23,440
address the obesity epidemic because it's heartbreaking seeing some of my son's school

758
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:29,120
friends they're already like literally 100 pounds overweight and as a paramedic i know what that

759
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:33,360
child's gonna look like if they carry on down that road someone's gonna be shoving a tube down their

760
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:40,160
throat at the age of 41 and their life is over so i think it's it's it's a disgrace that we as a

761
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:49,360
nation serve those foods and like you said do not educate our young boys and girls on what nutrition

762
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:54,160
actually looks like i'm normalizing a good diet not saying oh this is healthy this is normal this

763
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:58,880
is what our diet should look like and and i've packed my son's lunch for years and years and

764
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:03,840
years and years because i want him you know i can't change the school at the moment at least i can

765
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:08,320
change what's in his lunchbox but i think it's a very very important conversation and as you said

766
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:15,280
we don't need any research it's just common sense yeah yeah that's absolutely right i often hear

767
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:20,560
people saying certainly in the united states and here it's too expensive that we're going to do that

768
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:28,240
that it costs too much money well you know in india india is the country that has the largest

769
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:34,000
school school meal school lunch program they feed 100 million children every day every single day in

770
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:39,760
school in finland we have been we are eating every every child 100 of them without any

771
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:46,800
any cost we have done that since 1943 and this is one of the one of the parts of the education

772
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:53,760
system that we would probably let out go last i think i think the authorities and parents would

773
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:59,440
be willing to pay for textbooks and and school bus and you know all kinds of other things

774
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:05,440
but not the school meal because it's so so important and you're so it so it cannot be the

775
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:10,000
cost i think that you know anybody who said that we cannot afford we don't have money to do that

776
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,360
in a country like america you know one of one of the wealthiest countries in the world

777
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:20,960
you know having designing a system where where the school meal would cost probably about three

778
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:27,280
or four dollars a day every day it's not much you know for the country like this given the

779
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:34,320
the the positive benefits and then the the the kind of a cause that comes afterwards that you

780
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:40,720
mentioned yourself the having having issues with health and and many other things simply because

781
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:47,600
a lack of good nutrition this would be a really smart smart thing to do i i know that there's

782
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:54,800
there have been the presidents or the first ladies in the united states who have kind of taken this

783
01:14:54,800 --> 01:15:01,440
issue of school meals a little bit more seriously but the next president probably could take this

784
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:07,680
as a promise to make sure that all the children in american schools would be given a healthy

785
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:15,680
healthy school meal every day by 2025 that would be a great that would change the american

786
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:23,280
not only schools and the performance and standings in the international league tables

787
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:29,920
forever but also probably turn the the health and well-being of american young people into

788
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:35,680
a new positive more positive course absolutely there's a there's an english chef jamie oliver

789
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:41,200
who i think i think he was successful in england if i'm not mistaken but he tried the same thing

790
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:46,560
in america and they did a kind of like a reality show following him but he showed how for the same

791
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:51,600
budget of all the process crap they were serving they were able to teach the people that worked in

792
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:57,120
the kitchens in the school to prepare fresh food you know clean protein and some vegetables

793
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:02,720
and for the exactly the same budget so it's not even the money and i mean that's the sad thing

794
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:07,760
is if you bulk buy fresh clean food it's actually cheaper than probably most of the process things

795
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:13,920
that they buy yeah i think you can you say that you're gonna change the the schools or the country

796
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:19,840
i think you can probably launch a campaign there maybe in florida or some some parts of the states

797
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:26,720
to really start to to do this you know think again because you know how many how many children we

798
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:35,040
need to lose in in terms of their health or other things before we take this seriously

799
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:42,640
don't don't think like this just uh just launch launch a good campaign for for the the schools

800
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:48,880
meals in the community for example in the school and show people that how positive it can be yeah

801
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:56,000
i agree 100 well well speaking of the pandemic you touched on before um an observation that i've had

802
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:00,160
and something i talk about a lot in in my profession and the firefighters and paramedics

803
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:04,880
and police officers is sleep deprivation because obviously we're working shifts we're working nights

804
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:12,320
but in my son's school the the elementary in the middle he's had to wake up about 6 a.m to go to

805
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:20,640
school they start 7 30 ish and then go all the way through till two o'clock and since this pandemic's

806
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:26,400
hit he's he's right on the kind of puberty age now he's 12 that's turn 13 and he's been sleeping

807
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:33,040
for about 12 hours so clearly you know uninterrupted not not on his phone before he goes to bed or

808
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:38,640
anything and so it's kind of made me realize that that age group especially does need more sleep

809
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:45,840
and i've heard you know people talking before about the the the hours that kids go to school

810
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:51,040
in different countries in the world and even the length of the school day again what have you seen

811
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:56,480
as far as making kids wake up very early to go to school versus maybe different models where they

812
01:17:56,480 --> 01:18:05,600
go to school later maybe even having a shorter school day yes i don't know how much we have

813
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:13,840
researched about the the the um the timing when the school starts but i i know that in in finland

814
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:21,040
for example there has been some of the psychologists and health experts also have been proposing or

815
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,960
wondering whether the school should start a little bit later now the school starts about

816
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:32,240
eight thirty or nine o'clock in the morning just saying that the the teenagers particularly

817
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:38,720
teenagers they they tend to to like to sleep a little bit later but i don't know you know the

818
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:46,160
counter counter argument there is that why why it should be done that way why not try to make sure

819
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:51,120
that everybody would go to sleep earlier just like you you told about your own son that you know this

820
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:57,040
exactly they need they need about 10 to 12 hours sleep to grow up healthy and you know learn all

821
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:03,520
those things that are done so i don't know i don't know about that that particular question

822
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:10,240
but the the fact you know what is interesting is that when when we look at the the length of

823
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:16,240
school days or number of hours that young people and children are expected to be in school there's

824
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:24,640
a huge variation from country to country in the world and and that's one one thing that we do

825
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:34,080
one thing that we do know that's after a certain number of hours in an intense intensive education

826
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:39,680
and pedagogy that children just can't adopt anymore they can't they kind of stop learning

827
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:45,600
and and you know finland again is one of those education systems finland sweden and i think

828
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:54,400
norway as well where the the number of instruction hours weekly for children that are required is a

829
01:19:54,400 --> 01:20:03,520
relatively less than in the oacd countries or the wealthy countries on average let alone places

830
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:08,240
like australia for example or the united states where the kids are spending much much longer in

831
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:14,400
the school so you know i would i would say that if you ask my opinion i would say that we we

832
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:24,000
probably need to to consider again that how much we expect our children to be actively engaged in

833
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:30,320
in serious learning in the school every day and make sure that the school days are not

834
01:20:31,920 --> 01:20:37,200
not too long or too packed that we are we are not you know asking young people to do

835
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:42,480
too much the other related thing is the homework this homework

836
01:20:42,480 --> 01:20:47,840
question that is a huge thing in the united states that that what is the role of homework

837
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:54,320
and how much do we ask young people to take their time you know after their hobbies and

838
01:20:54,320 --> 01:21:00,960
other activities that they want to do in sports or music or whatever they do and then do hours of

839
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:06,960
homework so for me the the more important thing really is to probably start to consider the the

840
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:13,120
whole question of how important and what is the role of the homework in the first place i'm not

841
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:19,840
talking about you know students reading and studying when they are towards the end of the

842
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:27,120
high school when when the questions of going to college or further studies become active but

843
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:32,320
particularly primary school and middle school kids that could could we have a school system where

844
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:40,000
the the children would have a little bit less time during the school day when they're really asked to

845
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:47,120
learn and understand stuff like science and mathematics and social studies and other things

846
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:52,960
and and probably have more time to to play and do physical activity or arts or other things that

847
01:21:52,960 --> 01:22:01,040
would be balancing a little bit this and then really think about the the homework thing that

848
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:08,240
i think that the homework should never be an excuse for for adolescents for example to

849
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:15,040
stay up late not go to sleep because there's so many so much homework so i think i would start it

850
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:24,320
from from that those questions before before really considering what what time of the day in

851
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:29,600
the morning the kids should go to school and and try to make sure that there's there's a good

852
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:41,040
balance between high quality high quality sleep daily and the students school related duties and

853
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:47,120
recreational activities at home every day so that they the balance would be there and some of the

854
01:22:47,120 --> 01:22:52,960
systems are doing education systems are doing doing this quite well and the others are putting

855
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:57,520
a lot of pressure and burden on on students in terms of how they spend their times

856
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:02,400
in terms of how they spend their times yeah well i can attest personally so observational evidence

857
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:10,640
my little boy in elementary school up till fifth grade so up to fourth grade was getting a huge

858
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:16,320
amount of homework you know a very very young boy at that point one point he had two teachers that

859
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:22,160
kind of split their time with that one grade his one class so they both gave him homework so he

860
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:28,960
would literally spend a two a solid two hours at god what was he now that nine nine years old eight

861
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:35,520
years old doing all this homework and i saw a huge detriment well in the fifth grade they announced

862
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:41,120
that they were gonna kind of you know take take some of the influence from scandinavia and other

863
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:46,160
areas and they were gonna get rid of homework in elementary school and there was you know there was

864
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:53,440
resistance there were people that were for it i saw him literally do a 180 where his actual school

865
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:57,920
work where he was engaged at school was so much better because he didn't have to worry about he

866
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:02,240
was gonna have to you know but i think subconsciously have something in the tank to then do another hour

867
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:08,080
or two hours of work at home so and then in the middle school they've really gated down on the

868
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:14,560
homework they used to give so he'll have you know maybe an hour at the absolute most and i personally

869
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:21,360
have seen so much benefit in his academia in his self-confidence pulling back on that homework

870
01:24:21,360 --> 01:24:27,200
rather than you know burying them in it yeah yeah yeah there's a there's a lot of a lot of

871
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:33,040
advocates in the united states like alficon for example he's been writing he's been writing about

872
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:42,720
this uh homework issue and and how little value it actually has um and how much how much parents

873
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:48,720
and many adults think that it does a positive things that it doesn't um so the research research

874
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:55,360
evidence is very clear that homework doesn't really account too much of anything when it comes to the

875
01:24:55,360 --> 01:25:00,720
students success or failure in a school so it's not about that it's exactly as you said it's it's

876
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:06,640
about you know finding a balance and understanding how the kids children learn i understand that you

877
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:12,000
know there are some kids who probably benefit from you know having this regular rhythm at home that

878
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:18,080
you you know take a half an hour hour and just focus on your school stuff but most most students

879
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:24,320
don't really find it beneficial at all and a school you know school should be placed like in

880
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:29,840
finland for example where where most of the schools have the policy that that the students

881
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:37,520
people should be able to complete whatever is required by the school next day or next week

882
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:42,560
while they're still uh while they're still in the school during the school day rather than

883
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:50,480
taking taking tasks and things uh with them to be completed at home yeah no i agree 100

884
01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:54,960
so i want to just cover kind of one main topic and then we'll move to some closing questions

885
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:58,960
but a big thing that i talk about in this podcast is mental health as well and i know it's not

886
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:02,640
purely in the schools of course there are all kinds of elements that contribute to this

887
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:09,440
but what are some kind of systems that you've seen where it appears to definitely nurture

888
01:26:09,440 --> 01:26:14,880
positive mental health in our schools and what do you think are some of the contributing factors to

889
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:27,200
to negative influences of mental health um yeah i think you know my my first remark would be that

890
01:26:27,200 --> 01:26:32,240
would be that most education systems most countries that i know around the world

891
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:42,400
are just about now waking to to understand that mental health issue among young people is a huge

892
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:48,880
thing and also realize that when there are more more children coming to school every day with the

893
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:59,440
all kinds of mental and psychological and social challenges that being successful in this situation

894
01:26:59,440 --> 01:27:07,200
is is getting very difficult OECD for example that is regularly doing comparisons of different

895
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:14,000
countries is now increasingly focusing on you know looking at how different education systems

896
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:19,920
are addressing the the health and well-being and particularly mental health of young people that

897
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:27,520
indicates that it's becoming an important important thing you know i don't i don't probably

898
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:36,240
i don't have enough information and knowledge right now exactly what countries are doing

899
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:45,440
are doing doing this well and and what is what is happening in each and every education system

900
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:52,400
i know very well what the nudic countries have done and what they do and i can say one or two

901
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:59,040
things about there but i i leave these two commentators from your listeners who are

902
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:08,160
listening this this conversation in in some other countries to to probably respond to you how things

903
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:13,280
are done there but i think that what the traditionally what the nudic countries have done is that

904
01:28:14,160 --> 01:28:23,040
that we have had we have had a long tradition to to focus on what we call the whole child

905
01:28:23,040 --> 01:28:32,240
whole child development in in schooling that means that that the school is not just looking at the

906
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:42,960
academic or narrow academic development of of children in many cases referring to reading and

907
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:49,840
mathematics and science but looking at children as a kind of a holistic holistic entities where

908
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:59,920
of course the well-being and health are extremely important things so i i i would argue that that

909
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:05,520
all the nudic countries have done a really good job including iceland by the way iceland is is

910
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:12,080
one of those advanced countries in this respect where the the whole purpose of schooling is defined

911
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:16,960
not just through the academic learning and performance but the overall

912
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:20,800
holistic healthy development of of children including mental mental health

913
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:27,440
that i i think that those countries who have defined the purpose of schooling more broadly

914
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:38,240
and the success of a school of or a individual student through the different types of characteristics

915
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:47,440
of of learning and growth are and have certainly done a good job in in addressing

916
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:55,120
um addressing the mental health issues that have been increased increasing in finland and

917
01:29:55,120 --> 01:30:02,160
sweden and norway and i guess most most countries around the world right now so this is a really

918
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:08,080
has become an important issues i know that there are countries that are doing doing wonderful things

919
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:14,320
as well but as i said i know i know the nudic countries better than better than anything else

920
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:23,920
my guess would be that as we move on and if the children's mental health issues continue to

921
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:33,680
get worse as it may happen after this pandemic when we gradually return back to new normal

922
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:39,920
that it may be that the schools and education systems have to think about this issue even

923
01:30:40,480 --> 01:30:48,720
even more closely and more carefully than than before rather than asking children who are

924
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:55,520
returning back to schools after the school and classroom closes to catch up and and try to hurry

925
01:30:55,520 --> 01:31:02,080
up to make sure that nothing is lost rather than doing this that i think the school many schools

926
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:09,840
and school systems probably will realize that it's more important to to rethink the school as a place

927
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:19,520
where all these children who have been locked locked in their houses and spent weeks or months

928
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:28,080
just with their parents and siblings will have a safe and secure and healthy environment in the

929
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:37,680
school also to to make sure that their mental health will be good and get better if they are

930
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:44,960
be good and get better if necessary and again i think that the countries will will be very different

931
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:51,440
in in this respect that they are they are probably education systems where where the narrative will

932
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:59,680
be much more about closing the gap that has been created by kids not being in the school

933
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:05,120
or kind of a catching up but then there will be school systems where that really understand

934
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:13,360
how important the health issue is and use school as a place to heal and make sure that

935
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:24,080
you know no children and and adults as well would significantly suffer from this very difficult time

936
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:30,240
that they are going through right now yeah no i agree 100 i had an interesting conversation with

937
01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:35,760
my son's counselor he went he went through some some uh mental health problems either side of

938
01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:41,680
of christmas and it was definitely aligned with some trouble in his his mother's home i'm divorced

939
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:49,280
now um which is now resolved which is fantastic but um the counselor called him a couple of times

940
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:54,000
since this pandemic since school is closed and i asked her i'm like what are you seeing

941
01:32:54,000 --> 01:33:00,000
you know confidentially what are you seeing with um someone who's been in a relationship

942
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:04,480
some of the other kids that you normally saw in the school and she said actually i'm seeing an

943
01:33:04,480 --> 01:33:10,000
improvement in mental health at the moment and it's interesting because i had a couple of people

944
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:16,320
that specialize in mental health with children one one helps in a foster uh system and then one's a

945
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:22,800
child psychologist and they were talking about that social pressure and especially social media

946
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:28,480
being a huge contributor to mental ill health with children and right now they're taken away from

947
01:33:28,480 --> 01:33:34,000
um having to look cool or you know whatever the pecking order is in their particular school

948
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:40,160
um so i hope that we glean lessons from that too that we like as you said encourage more about the

949
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:47,760
whole holistic health of the child but also kind of figure out ways where we can remove some of

950
01:33:47,760 --> 01:33:52,560
those elements the the social with some of the damage that social media seems to do in some of

951
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:59,200
our children yeah i think that when when young people eventually when they return back to school

952
01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:06,160
that they they probably value more than they did uh before this crisis the this face-to-face

953
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:13,040
human relationship rather than using social media for that so it may may have some positive

954
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:19,840
positive consequences this uh this extremely difficult time we have yeah i hope so all right

955
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,200
well i want to transition to some closing questions so i can let you go you've been so generous with

956
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:27,840
your time today and i do appreciate it um no worries so before i ask you i'm gonna ask you

957
01:34:27,840 --> 01:34:32,160
about someone else's book so let's talk about your book first so the most recent one is let the

958
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:36,400
children play which you did with william doyle so where can people find that

959
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:44,480
yeah that that book is easy to find in north north america this is published by oxford university

960
01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:50,640
press and this should be widely available certainly in amazon but probably also in the in the book

961
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:55,760
stores i'm not absolutely sure but the you know if you amazon customer that's the easy

962
01:34:56,480 --> 01:35:00,960
easy easy place to get it brilliant well i just want to say for everyone listening as well so

963
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:06,640
to me it's it's the positive side of a double-edged sword so you've got the common sense like you said

964
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:12,560
we shouldn't have to really prove that obesity is bad for children but you also have all these

965
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:17,040
studies all these anecdotes all these these stories and examples from around the world that really do

966
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:22,480
substantiate and back up the things that you're talking about so even if someone was questioning

967
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:27,840
the value of play for example in schools or physical education or you know the recess times

968
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:35,280
not only is it is it told in a very great storytelling way but you do have all these

969
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:40,160
studies to back it up as well so i highly advise anyone that's curious about this topic to to

970
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:46,960
purchase the book thank you right so then first closing question is there another book that you

971
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:51,120
love to recommend it can be something to do with what we've discussed today or something completely

972
01:35:51,120 --> 01:36:06,000
different um what should i say uh that's a hard one you know i'm reading i'm reading so much uh

973
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:13,360
uh students students works now that i haven't um uh well you look

974
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:21,760
let me let me let me give you an answer that is not kind of probably predictable because there's

975
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:31,120
a lot of there's a lot of literature um in the past that i often kind of refer to as important

976
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:35,120
and important books for me and there are some books as you know that you know some books come

977
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:39,840
and go people write them i hope that left the children play is not not one of those

978
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:46,080
but then there are some of some of those books that really remain and stay and people read it

979
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,880
and find it more and more kind of accurate and it's interesting that some of the books that have

980
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:57,520
been written already long ago only now will begin to kind of resonate and people find it kind of a

981
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:06,400
the importance and essence of that one of my my all-time heroes really and and the the the people

982
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:12,800
who have really influenced my my thinking as a teacher and educator who was a late seymour

983
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:21,120
sarason who passed away already more than 10 years ago he was a yale professor of educational

984
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:28,480
psychology a psychology for basically all his life and he published about 45 books and many of his

985
01:37:28,480 --> 01:37:35,760
books were not really they were widely read but not not not that much understood but one of the

986
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:42,800
books i would actually recommend to you to read any of the seymour sarason's books probably his

987
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:52,560
most seminal work was the book that he wrote first in 1971 and then it was republished in 1996 it was

988
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:58,640
a 25th anniversary of that edition is still a great book to read and i i always recommend it to

989
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:06,960
my students who are in the field of improving education and understanding schools it's the book

990
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:19,040
is called the culture of the school and the problem of change that really is a book for those who

991
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:24,640
wonder about the same things that i do and it's basically the where we started this conversation

992
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:31,440
that you know why why things why the why the schools and education systems don't really

993
01:38:31,440 --> 01:38:38,960
change even if we try to do that and why some education systems change are able to make progress

994
01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:45,200
faster than others but seymour sarason really in this kind of a book long story is able to

995
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:52,320
you know talk about those important things that are still probably still more relevant than at

996
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:57,920
the time when he was writing it the first time in 1971 so the culture of the school and the problem

997
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:04,960
of change by seymour seymour sarason is uh is the book here that i would recommend to anybody

998
01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:09,360
in this field to read excellent well thank you for that it's definitely one i've never heard before

999
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:14,000
so i'll look that up myself um what about a film there any films that you love

1000
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:22,960
uh yeah i'm a film film freak i've been disappointing disappointed by the by the films

1001
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:32,720
uh coming about more more recently i think what i try to say is that i less and less frequently

1002
01:39:32,720 --> 01:39:38,640
really find see a kind of a good film that really stops me the other day you know that my all-time

1003
01:39:38,640 --> 01:39:47,600
favorite film is martin scorsese's taxi driver i remember i wrote a number of essays about that

1004
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:55,120
film when i was in high school students i i think i even wrote in my my exam paper in high school

1005
01:39:55,920 --> 01:40:01,680
about that film and i just saw that a couple of nights ago here in australia on tv

1006
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:08,240
and that's that's one of those films i love the music i love the whole story and of course

1007
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:17,440
robert de niro as a young young actor there in the very early part of his career does a brilliant

1008
01:40:17,440 --> 01:40:24,880
phenomenal uh parts as a taxi driver but i i like the hidden message in that scorsese's

1009
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:30,640
storytelling from new york new york city it's a story about the new york city and the beauty and

1010
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:36,800
the the kind of ugly side of the city but also uh also the time in the 1970s of people

1011
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:43,520
disturbed by many things in the society um through this character uh the taxi driver and

1012
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:51,520
and there's everything i think for me it's a kind of a pure package of art and storytelling that he's

1013
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:57,760
able to do in a in a in a beautiful uh beautiful style i can watch the film again and again

1014
01:40:59,360 --> 01:41:04,160
uh you know regardless of the some of the violence that is there at the end of the film

1015
01:41:06,480 --> 01:41:11,360
i think it's a beautiful story new york has a special place for me because you know anything

1016
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:18,800
about new york city because of my my cron it was my grandfather's uh home for a while it's kind of

1017
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:25,600
a resonance in my somehow in my dna i don't know what it is brilliant did you ever see the new

1018
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:32,880
um film they made the joker no i know the film and many people have said positive things about

1019
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:37,440
that but i haven't seen that yeah i think that's another i would parallel that with tax drive not

1020
01:41:37,440 --> 01:41:43,200
saying it's the same kind of film but again it's it's taking this you know this this comic style

1021
01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:47,840
character but putting such a human element on it and you probably find it fascinating because

1022
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:52,320
there's this childhood trauma involved and this is you know this is the path it took because it was

1023
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:57,760
never addressed and there's a systemic problem with what makes him worse so very very deep

1024
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:02,560
psychological film and much much more depth than you think of a normal superhero movie

1025
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:08,160
all right good all right so then what about uh documentaries have you seen any documentaries

1026
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:20,400
that interested you uh yes um do you want to want to have like one example of a documentary

1027
01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:25,920
yes yeah one or two whatever whatever you want to suggest yeah yeah i watched the um

1028
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:33,280
um what's a new one that was uh in um available in youtube i think it still is there that was

1029
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:40,160
about the the it's called the the planet the planet of the humans or something like this it's

1030
01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:48,480
a new this about the critical view of the korean korean energy movements um uh and i watched it

1031
01:42:48,480 --> 01:42:54,240
because there was a lot of media a couple of weeks ago about about the film how it's critical about

1032
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:59,520
the things that people should not criticize i mean the renewable energy and those things i think it's

1033
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:07,120
an interesting interesting piece of work it's not on the kind of a top list of my uh my documentaries

1034
01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:13,600
but one one other documentary is that it's really something that i probably will never forget is the

1035
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:23,920
is called uh search search for sugar sugar man i don't know if you have heard about this it's about

1036
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:31,760
the south african artist the singer and songwriter called roteriges it's a swedish guy who made the

1037
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:37,760
film about 10 years ago something like that so he found this uh south african singer called

1038
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:45,600
rodriguez that everybody thought was dead and he was able to uh follow the trace and locate

1039
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:55,040
this oldest singer now in detroit new york it's a beautiful story it's amazing it's actually

1040
01:43:55,040 --> 01:44:02,960
unbelievable documentary about the thing that can happen if you if you're sensitive to good stories

1041
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:10,160
that are around um so i i recommend that to to anybody i think it's a searching for sugoman or

1042
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:16,720
something like this but it's a documentary film about south african singer called rodriguez the

1043
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:22,320
beautiful story brilliant i will look that up i've genuinely watched so many of the documentaries

1044
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:28,720
that people suggest because like you you know i'm 46 now so it's not that often that a brand new

1045
01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:32,720
movie is made with a great script and it's something different than you know you and i

1046
01:44:32,720 --> 01:44:37,840
watched when we were 20 or 30 so but the documentaries with the true stories i tend

1047
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:42,240
up i tend to watch so many more of those now so i'll definitely add up thank you for the suggestion

1048
01:44:43,440 --> 01:44:48,240
all right so then next question is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a

1049
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:53,200
guest to speak to the first responders military and associated professions of the world

1050
01:44:53,200 --> 01:44:58,320
right if you can if you can get richard branson now that he would be great i know him a little

1051
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:05,440
bit i was on his island a couple of times in the caribbean and he he will be hard he will be hard

1052
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:11,760
hard to get but i i don't know you know i'm more and more the older i get i'm more and more trying

1053
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:18,160
to uh find places for young people to speak so i would i would definitely

1054
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:24,400
uh you know even even having an unknown young person uh and and you have a you have a wonderful

1055
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:29,760
young people there in florida some people who would kind of see the future in a positive way

1056
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:36,400
i know that the uh these horrible school shootings there in florida triggered a movement

1057
01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:44,720
of young people who want to um um who want to lead the way and try to do good things

1058
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:50,320
who want to lead the way and try to do good things you know if you if you can if you haven't had any

1059
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:56,720
any young people there are really like young youngsters high schoolers or or students

1060
01:45:57,680 --> 01:46:05,840
try to find somebody and give give her or him a voice um and just you know talk about these

1061
01:46:05,840 --> 01:46:10,720
things that would be wonderful i'll definitely listen that story yes no absolutely a great idea

1062
01:46:10,720 --> 01:46:15,440
and actually funny you say that my son has been on the show my stepson and my wife so different

1063
01:46:15,440 --> 01:46:20,720
times and different questions but but yeah my son and my stepson were both involved in a code red

1064
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:25,040
where they thought they had a shooter in a school so you know it's interesting hearing that but but

1065
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:28,640
the parkland shooting that we had in florida yeah that's absolutely right i think that would be a

1066
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:33,680
a great conversation with someone that was you know either still at school or maybe has just

1067
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:38,560
graduated now but it was around that time because yeah i mean i i hate the fact that our children

1068
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:44,400
have to know a drill that involves hiding in the dark under a desk because someone's trying to

1069
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:49,200
murder them that disturbs me so much i want to say thank you so much for being so generous i know

1070
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:53,680
that we've gone you know past the 90 minutes um i want to make sure that everyone knows how to

1071
01:46:53,680 --> 01:46:58,000
find you online and how to reach out to you if they want to on social media or the internet so

1072
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:03,840
what's the best place for people to find you uh the best place i have my own website it's called

1073
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:13,520
www.passisalberg.com i'm not extremely active there but there's a lot of stuff about my writings and

1074
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:20,720
my speeches and some other stuff this will be there your your podcast will be there for sure

1075
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:28,480
or you can follow me in social media and twitter it's passi underscore salberg easy to find there's

1076
01:47:28,480 --> 01:47:35,760
only one person as uh as i know it that has exactly the same name as i do so just google me and it

1077
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:41,200
comes to me so i'm very happy to have happy to have a chat or conversation with you if you uh if

1078
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:46,560
you're interested in brilliant well again thank you so so much this is something that conversation

1079
01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:51,440
i wanted to have for a long time because you have been out there teaching the world about some

1080
01:47:51,440 --> 01:47:56,800
solutions to some of the problems that we have so i just truly appreciate you being so generous and

1081
01:47:56,800 --> 01:48:03,120
um you know thank you so much for for telling your story thank you very much for giving me

1082
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:07,440
this space an opportunity to have conversation you're doing great things you're part of the

1083
01:48:07,440 --> 01:48:27,280
change and you know keep it that way stay safe and spread the word