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This episode is sponsored by Life Aid.

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Now Life Aid has several products,

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one of which I wanna highlight

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because it's so pertinent to you,

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the sleep deprived audience.

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Their product, Focus Aid, is a healthy alternative

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to the energy drinks that I see so many of us relying on

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because we are exhausted, there's no other way of putting it.

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These energy drinks that I've seen

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are putting our men and women into hospitals

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with arrhythmias, GI distress, adding to anxiety,

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certainly affecting mental health.

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So what Focus Aid has done is they've removed

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all the terrible ingredients

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and used natural, healthy ingredients, natural sweeteners,

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and replaced the high levels of caffeine with a nootropic.

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And what a nootropic is is a supplement for your brain.

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As a first responder, I can attest that this then allows you

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to be alert on a call, but when it is time to rest,

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to go to bed, whether it's the end of the shift,

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whether it's after a call, you're actually able

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to not only sleep but get a better quality of sleep as well.

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So an incredible product I urge you guys to try

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and Life Aid has reached out to you, the audience,

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to offer you a discount of 15%

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if you use the discount code SHIELD at lifeaidbevco.com.

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So that's L-I-F-E-A-I-D-B-E-V-C-O.com.

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Use the code SHIELD, which is S-H-I-E-L-D.

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And please try this, it's gonna end up being less expensive

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than the drinks that you're using.

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And I'm telling you right now, it's an incredible product.

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And please reach out and let me know what you think.

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This episode is brought to you by 511 Tactical,

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a company that I've used for over a decade

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since they supplied the uniforms for Anaheim Fire

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when I worked out in California.

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And they have partnered with the Behind the Shield podcast

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to offer you, the listener, 15% off,

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not just a single purchase, but an ongoing discount

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every time you shop at 511tactical.com.

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And I will give you the discount code in a moment.

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I just wanna go on a kind of product focus for a second.

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In episode 125 of Behind the Shield podcast,

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I spoke to podiatrist Dr. Mike Donato.

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And we discussed a concern that I've had,

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which is the footwear for first responders.

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If you're a firefighter, obviously,

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if we're doing an extrication, if we're fighting fire,

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our bunker boots are definitely the best things.

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They offer a high level of protection.

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But the day-to-day calls, the EMS calls,

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all those kind of areas, they are absolutely overkill,

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some of the boots that we are being given.

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And I wanted to find a kind of happy medium

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between protection and comfort,

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as a lot of these heavy, heavy boots

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are causing overuse injuries,

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knee pain, ankle pain, back pain.

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And 511tactical has come up with a shoe

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called the Norris Sneaker.

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Now, this has the feel, literally, of a skate shoe.

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It's incredibly comfortable.

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It has puncture protection on the bottom.

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It has the toe protection on the front.

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But they've taken a lot of the weight away

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and made it far more comfortable.

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I think many of us will admit that,

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as an alternative to duty boots,

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we turn to sneakers, which are also very comfortable.

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They really don't offer any protection.

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So this is a great happy medium between the two.

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If you wanna see this, as I said,

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it's called the Norris, N-O-R-R-I-S, sneaker.

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Go to 511tactical, and that discount code

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that I was talking about is SHIELD15, S-H-I-E-L-D-1-5.

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That will be applicable for all of your purchases.

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The only time that's not gonna work

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is when they have an additional sale

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that's actually gonna be higher.

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So if they're offering a 20% or 25% off,

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obviously their 15 is gonna be invalid

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because you're gonna get even more off.

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So for the Norris sneaker and all the other things

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that I'm gonna showcase that I personally use,

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I'm not gonna start talking about things that I don't use,

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but the products of theirs that I think are amazing,

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go to 511tactical, put in SHIELD15,

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and save 15% every single time.

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Welcome to episode 267 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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My name's James Gearing, and I am so excited

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to finally be able to release my interview

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with Buck Braneman.

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Now for those not familiar with Buck,

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he is basically a real-world horse whisperer.

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In fact, he was actually the advisor on the movie they made.

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But more importantly, his life story really parallels

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a lot of people we had on the show.

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So he went through a pretty traumatic childhood,

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but was able to retain the kindness and compassion

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that he believed in, which then ultimately made him

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an incredible horseman.

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So I got to watch him work at one of his clinics in Georgia.

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So you will hear about the 40-minute mark,

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the quality of the conversation will change

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as far as the audio quality.

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That's because the first 40 minutes was face-to-face.

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We ran out of time.

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So he was kind enough to agree to a second part

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of a conversation so he could make it

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the full hour and a half.

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So an incredible conversation.

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The parallels between what he's seen with horses

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and what he's seen with people are striking

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and pertinent not only just to us, the first responder,

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military, medical community, but basically every person

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on planet Earth and their horses and their dogs.

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So an amazing conversation.

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So before we get to the interview, as I always say,

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please take a moment and go to whichever app

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you listen to this podcast on and subscribe to the show.

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Leave a rating, the more five-star ratings we get,

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the more visible we are to people looking for this podcast.

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And then feedback, if you've got something to say,

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please, I'd love to hear your feedback too.

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And then most importantly, social media, email,

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word of mouth, share these incredible episodes.

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Buck's alone is gonna be so moving to people

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in the horse community and then everyone else outside

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as well as you will hear.

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And the more I can get you guys to share,

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the more ear holes his story gets to.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you

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Buck Braneman, enjoy.

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All right, well, I wanna start by saying thank you

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for inviting me here.

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It was awesome to watch you work.

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I'm just gonna do a little kind of shout out

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at the beginning.

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So I was referred to you by Josh Brolin,

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the actor, he'd watched your movie.

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His daughter Eden, he's very, very into horses as well.

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Navy Seal friend of mine, he and his wife

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have come to attend.

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And my sister who has her horse Tornado in England,

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she also adores you.

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So being a fireman and coming from all these

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different places, it's not just the horse world

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that you've touched with the movie.

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So, yeah.

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So, all right, so very first question.

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Where are we right now on planet earth?

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Well, you know, I've been doing this,

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these clinics for 37 years now.

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And gosh, it's taken me all over the world

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to places that I never imagined

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I'd ever get to experience or see.

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And all of that I owe to the horse.

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I would have never done all these things I've done

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if not for what the horse did for me.

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So, and where it goes from here, gosh, I don't know.

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I still love what I'm doing.

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In a couple of years, I may cut back

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a little bit on my clinics,

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but it doesn't mean I'll work less.

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I may start doing a few more clinics at home

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at the ranch so I can be home with my family.

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I guess if there was one thing left to do,

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and I've been sort of working on it off and on

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for a few years, I want the faraway horses

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to be made into a movie.

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Just because I think it's a good story

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that has a good message for people

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that may be living at a really dark place in their life.

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And I wrote that book to encourage people

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to believe that just because you might have

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a really tough family situation,

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that it's not a foregone conclusion

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that your whole life is gonna be a failure

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and that you're gonna follow the same path

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as maybe the people you were forced to live with,

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not by choice.

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And the book became a best seller

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with the publisher putting in zero money

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to promoting it.

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It's sold now almost 200,000 books by word of mouth.

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So the story has been a meaningful story

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to a lot of people.

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And I just feel like I'll be finished with it

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when we get it made into a film.

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We've got a script and everything now

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and it's just, it's really hard to get a movie put together.

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Even though sometimes I'll watch TV a lot

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when I'm on the road and I'll see a movie

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and I'll think, somebody green lighted that movie

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and that is one of the worst pieces of junk

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I have ever seen.

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But it still cost millions of dollars to make it

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when it was just garbage.

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And I just think, gosh, how many doors do I have to knock on?

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But I'll just keep knocking on doors.

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One will open up one of these days.

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Absolutely, I think there's a paradigm shift as well

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where I think people are actually wanting

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those kind of stories now.

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They remade.

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You hope so.

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Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the eighties.

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They remade almost every movie

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that I watched when I was a kid.

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So that's already been made, don't need to remake it.

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But I think that even the Horse Whisperer,

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I mean, some of Robert Redford's other movies,

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those are stories that people want.

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So I don't think it's if, it's definitely when.

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It's amazing to me that we did the Horse Whisperer in 97.

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And it got released in 98.

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So 21 years ago, that movie came out

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and it was kind of a big deal.

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I didn't realize it was that big a deal at the time

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because I was so busy working on the film.

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But 21 years later, people still remember that movie.

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That's just, that's amazing to me.

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And even younger people, they'll say,

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oh yeah, I know that movie.

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And it's like, you do?

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Yeah, well, I mean, and it's so powerful.

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So I was introduced to Buck, the documentary originally.

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And as we said before we started recording,

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as a firefighter, I just saw the absolute parallel

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between not so much my life,

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because I've been very blessed.

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I had a very non-traumatic life,

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but so many people I've had on the show

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that have really been through some horrible things

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as innocent kids, just like you were.

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And that parallel, whether it's horses,

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whether it's, whatever the outlet is.

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And that's kind of what I really wanted to explore with you

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because people just assume everyone's fine.

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And then you pull the curtain behind,

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look behind the curtain, excuse me.

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And then you realize, oh my God,

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some of these people grew up in the most horrendous ways.

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Some of them spiral downwards

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and some of them were lifted up.

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And that's obviously what you did.

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And it's a story I think that needs to be heard.

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Yeah, you know, it's a,

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I try to encourage people to not just accept things

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the way they are, that there's a point in time

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that regardless of your background,

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that you do have the opportunity to make choices.

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And there's a point to where it's no longer okay

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to blame your circumstance on somebody else.

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Whether it's your mother or father or aunt or uncle

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or grandpa or your siblings, there's a point to where

257
00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:48,720
I just think it's not okay, it's not healthy

258
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,720
to just continue to be excused for where your life is

259
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,400
and blame it on someone else.

260
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,440
Yeah.

261
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,560
What if I'd love to then just kind of revisit.

262
00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:03,360
So where were you actually born?

263
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,760
I was born in Sheboygan, Wisconsin.

264
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,120
Okay, so if you wouldn't mind,

265
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,320
tell me your family dynamic,

266
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,920
how many siblings and what your parents did.

267
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,360
We didn't live there very long.

268
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,360
I just have one brother, Smokey.

269
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,360
And it wasn't too long after I was born in Wisconsin

270
00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:26,680
that my folks moved to California to around Thousand Oaks.

271
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,520
And my dad was kind of a jack of all trades.

272
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:36,520
He was a union electrician, he was a union cable splicer,

273
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,160
saddle maker, boot and shoe repair person,

274
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,360
worked construction and oddly enough,

275
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:48,840
and of course you read in my book

276
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,480
that he was a fairly dark person, not a good guy.

277
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,520
At one point when we were in California,

278
00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,840
he worked for the LA County Sheriff's Department.

279
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:00,680
Really?

280
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:01,520
I didn't know that bit.

281
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,880
Kind of like the fox garden, the hen house, so to speak.

282
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,120
And we weren't there very long

283
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,920
and then we moved to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho

284
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,840
and spent quite a long time there.

285
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,080
Right, so we're gonna obviously hear about

286
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,880
why your dad was a dark person,

287
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,960
but, or what he did, should I say,

288
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,840
but do you now look back, see any reason

289
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,920
why he ended up becoming so cruel?

290
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,840
You know, it's a couple of reasons

291
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,480
that I've tried to come up with.

292
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,880
You couldn't blame his parents.

293
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,040
His parents were, all their life,

294
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,680
they lived in Vietersburg, Indiana

295
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:41,200
and they had a farm on the Wabash River

296
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:46,320
and they were the kindest, most normal,

297
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,780
wonderful people ever.

298
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,360
I got to know them, they were pretty late in life

299
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,520
when I got to know them.

300
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,600
And every kid in the community

301
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,640
was at their house all the time.

302
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,740
They just were adored by every kid

303
00:14:01,740 --> 00:14:03,280
that ever grew up in that town.

304
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,720
So that obviously wasn't the reason.

305
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,920
My dad was in World War II

306
00:14:11,060 --> 00:14:14,240
and I never have been able to confirm it.

307
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:19,020
One thing I did confirm at a very early age,

308
00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:21,660
my dad was a pathological liar,

309
00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:25,860
but he was brilliant because he could remember

310
00:14:25,860 --> 00:14:27,460
every lie he ever told.

311
00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:30,760
So he could connect them and he could convince you

312
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,640
that anything he said was absolutely true

313
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,120
and you'd have a hard time tripping him up.

314
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,500
So he said that he was a prisoner of war in World War II.

315
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,160
I know he was in World War II,

316
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,840
but I don't know if he was a prisoner or not.

317
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,720
He said he was, but I don't know.

318
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,160
I really don't know.

319
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,160
But at one time, my dad was working in Alaska

320
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:59,160
putting in the big high voltage towers across Alaska.

321
00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:04,260
That's what he did.

322
00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:05,800
He was a lineman as well.

323
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:09,060
And he got electrocuted.

324
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:13,220
Two other guys died in the accident.

325
00:15:13,220 --> 00:15:16,740
They were on a 90-foot tower

326
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:20,060
and he got electrocuted and fell to the ground

327
00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:25,060
and was in a hospital for probably five or six months

328
00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:29,260
that I didn't see him.

329
00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:33,620
I was real little, second grade or so, first grade.

330
00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:37,300
And then when he came back home,

331
00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:43,340
he had terrible headaches for years after that.

332
00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:48,340
And maybe the trauma of that changed him.

333
00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:55,860
But in a way, I thought to myself,

334
00:15:55,860 --> 00:15:58,980
there was never a time in my life ever

335
00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:02,100
that I wasn't scared of my dad.

336
00:16:03,820 --> 00:16:08,820
But after his accident, then I became more scared, I think.

337
00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:13,820
But I think that was already there before he got hurt.

338
00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:15,940
Yeah, if you don't have a memory of it being good

339
00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:16,780
and then all of a sudden that-

340
00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:19,460
And that may have triggered it and made,

341
00:16:19,460 --> 00:16:21,020
maybe he was just the way he was,

342
00:16:21,020 --> 00:16:22,980
but the accident made him more so.

343
00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:27,820
And so he really suffered from headaches for years.

344
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:31,620
And it was kind of a funny thing.

345
00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:32,860
He would, like in a week,

346
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:37,860
he would have a whole full huge ball of blood

347
00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:40,700
full huge bottle of buffering.

348
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:42,700
He would consume it all in a week.

349
00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:47,180
And I mean, they were bad

350
00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:50,180
because there would be tears rolling down his cheeks,

351
00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:51,620
24 hours a day.

352
00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:55,580
And my dad was very mean to horses.

353
00:16:55,580 --> 00:16:57,940
We always had horses because we were trick ropers

354
00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:00,120
and rodeo entertainers, as little guys.

355
00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:02,940
Again, he made us do that

356
00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:05,500
because he was living vicariously through us.

357
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:07,060
That's another story in itself.

358
00:17:07,060 --> 00:17:09,940
But he was very mean to horses.

359
00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:11,220
And there was this mare,

360
00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:13,940
Pinto mare that he was working with

361
00:17:14,980 --> 00:17:18,660
and he was very abusive all the time.

362
00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:21,460
And the mare finally got tired of putting up with him

363
00:17:21,460 --> 00:17:23,460
and she pawed him right in the forehead.

364
00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:27,620
And that instant his headaches stopped.

365
00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:28,660
Oh really?

366
00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:30,620
He never had them again.

367
00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:31,460
Oh my God.

368
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:32,700
Isn't that something?

369
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,240
That's like, that always makes me think of a title of a book

370
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,940
that I was always very amused by the title.

371
00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:40,120
And the title was, When God Winks.

372
00:17:41,220 --> 00:17:43,460
Just like weird little things that happen.

373
00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:45,660
That is kind of God's sense of humor, you know?

374
00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:46,500
Yeah.

375
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:47,500
God, that's crazy.

376
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:48,340
Absolutely crazy.

377
00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:49,220
Well, you mentioned the roping.

378
00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:52,580
So if you wouldn't mind kind of just lead us down the road

379
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:54,540
of how you got into that

380
00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:56,380
and the kind of the cruelty that was the undertone of that.

381
00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:59,140
Well, when we lived in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho,

382
00:18:01,660 --> 00:18:03,540
my dad as a younger man

383
00:18:03,540 --> 00:18:08,220
had just become literally obsessed

384
00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:11,900
with an old rodeo star named Monty Montana.

385
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,720
He was very famous and worked a lot in the movie business

386
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,380
during the singing cowboy's days

387
00:18:17,380 --> 00:18:19,180
of Gene Autry and Roy Rogers.

388
00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:25,640
And biggest celebrity the rodeo business has ever known.

389
00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:29,700
And he wore the nudie suits and the whole deal.

390
00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:31,860
And he was a trick roper.

391
00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:33,560
And a very charming guy.

392
00:18:34,380 --> 00:18:37,040
And my dad saw him and he just always wished

393
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,640
that he could have been that guy.

394
00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:43,700
And so my dad decided we were going to be that guy,

395
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:44,640
me and my brother.

396
00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:47,180
My dad couldn't trick rope at all.

397
00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:49,340
I was gonna say, so he didn't even learn himself.

398
00:18:49,340 --> 00:18:50,180
He just put it on you.

399
00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:51,800
He could spin a little flat loop in front of him,

400
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,900
which I could show you how to do in 10 minutes.

401
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:55,460
Right.

402
00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:57,220
And we had a couple of books,

403
00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:00,940
of illustrated books of little stick men doing rope tricks

404
00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:02,780
and a little explanation how to do it.

405
00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:06,020
And he started us roping.

406
00:19:06,020 --> 00:19:08,780
And I was doing rope tricks at three years old.

407
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:15,460
And I became professional status at six.

408
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,880
I got my PRCA card and was getting paid to do it,

409
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,980
doing it for a living.

410
00:19:21,380 --> 00:19:25,340
Well, between three and six, you had a choice.

411
00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,740
And this was, you know, winter country.

412
00:19:27,740 --> 00:19:29,620
Corleone gets cold in the winter.

413
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:31,600
We had no place indoors to practice,

414
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,540
but you'd have to shovel off a bare spot.

415
00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:36,220
If it's winter, you go out and practice.

416
00:19:36,220 --> 00:19:38,980
And the choice was, you're gonna get whipped

417
00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:40,300
or you're gonna practice.

418
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:43,820
Well, practice looked pretty good to us.

419
00:19:43,820 --> 00:19:47,940
This is like five, six years old, even less than that.

420
00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:49,620
From three, four, five.

421
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:50,980
From three, you were getting whipped.

422
00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:51,800
Oh yeah.

423
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:57,360
But we'd practice and we sort of enjoyed it.

424
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:58,740
We didn't really know, we were too young

425
00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:00,900
to even know what the heck it was all about.

426
00:20:02,020 --> 00:20:06,220
But it made our dad happy when we'd practice.

427
00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:07,920
And that's really all we wanted.

428
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,860
Because when he was happy, we weren't quite as scared.

429
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,660
So we figured that out and we got pretty handy doing it.

430
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:22,180
And then at six, we started going to rodeos and things.

431
00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:28,020
And met a lot of people that I knew, you know,

432
00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:30,700
over the years, years later.

433
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:32,460
But, and at seven years old,

434
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:36,740
we did a Kellogg Sugar Pops commercial.

435
00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:39,740
And we were on the cereal box, you know,

436
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:43,200
and we were known as the Sugar Pops kids.

437
00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:46,540
That's kind of a big deal to us, you know.

438
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:49,580
By that time, we had moved to Montana.

439
00:20:51,260 --> 00:20:53,100
And my dad had a shoe repair shop

440
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:55,460
in a town called Whitehall, Montana.

441
00:20:55,460 --> 00:21:00,460
And things just got worse and worse.

442
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,360
And he was always abusive, never a time where he wasn't.

443
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,000
But if you're raised in that,

444
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,740
and you're fairly isolated from other people,

445
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,840
you don't know you're being abused.

446
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,780
You think that's how everybody lives.

447
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,320
But he was a very cruel person.

448
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,780
And it was very hard on my mom.

449
00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:28,180
He never abused her physically.

450
00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:33,340
But she would always kind of protect us

451
00:21:33,340 --> 00:21:35,300
and the best she could.

452
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:38,860
And it was never really life threatening.

453
00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:40,860
You never thought he was gonna kill you.

454
00:21:42,020 --> 00:21:46,440
But boy, he had such a cold side to him.

455
00:21:47,620 --> 00:21:51,000
My mother, when we were living at Whitehall,

456
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:52,060
we didn't have much money.

457
00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:55,340
And so she drove clear over to Ennis, Montana,

458
00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:58,780
which was probably over an hour's drive.

459
00:21:58,780 --> 00:22:01,260
And she worked in Betty's Cafe every day.

460
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,200
And he worked in the shoe shop.

461
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,020
Well, she would drop me off after lunch at school,

462
00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:11,220
and then she'd head to work.

463
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:13,700
And every day I'd cry.

464
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,300
And I'd tell her not to go to work.

465
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:18,380
Because it meant that I was gonna be home

466
00:22:18,380 --> 00:22:20,860
for four or five hours, me and my brother alone

467
00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:23,020
with our dad after school.

468
00:22:24,540 --> 00:22:27,340
And that's when things would really go south,

469
00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:28,660
when she wasn't around.

470
00:22:30,460 --> 00:22:31,580
And of course, he'd tell us,

471
00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:34,900
if you ever say a word to her, it's all over for you.

472
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:41,020
And every day, I can only imagine

473
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:42,540
how hard I made it on my mom.

474
00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:44,540
Because every day I'd cry and beg her not to go.

475
00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:46,860
And every day she'd cry and say she had to.

476
00:22:46,860 --> 00:22:51,860
And about that time, 71, no, 1973,

477
00:22:57,380 --> 00:22:58,800
she died of diabetes.

478
00:23:00,580 --> 00:23:05,580
And she'd had a, I guess us boys

479
00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:08,100
probably always held it against our dad.

480
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,380
Because he always thought he was smarter

481
00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:12,220
than everybody else.

482
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:16,180
And she'd had lots of diabetic reactions

483
00:23:16,180 --> 00:23:17,020
when we were younger.

484
00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:18,580
She was a very severe diabetic.

485
00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:20,880
And we would call the ambulance

486
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,780
and they would get her in the hospital

487
00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:26,160
and get all of her blood sugar back in balance.

488
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,080
And she'd come home.

489
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,060
It was almost like you got used to it.

490
00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:32,300
And of course, in those days,

491
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:35,420
they didn't control diabetes like they do today.

492
00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:37,420
They can do so much more for diabetics

493
00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:38,660
than they ever could then.

494
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:42,820
Well, my mom had had the flu.

495
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:47,820
And so she'd been in bed all day.

496
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:49,940
Well, if you're not eating,

497
00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:51,500
you don't need to take insulin.

498
00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:57,300
Well, my dad, he gave her a bowl of soup that night.

499
00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:01,780
And me and my brother, we're just little guys.

500
00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:04,960
You know, I was maybe 10 or nine or 10.

501
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:11,960
And we said, dad, will mom need some insulin now?

502
00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:14,820
After having a bowl of soup?

503
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,860
And he just dismissed us.

504
00:24:17,860 --> 00:24:21,140
And he said, you little bastards mind your own business.

505
00:24:21,140 --> 00:24:22,520
I'll take care of my wife.

506
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,700
So he scared us and we went to bed.

507
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,140
And in the middle of the night,

508
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:30,660
she had gone through the stages

509
00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:32,660
of what would be a diabetic reaction,

510
00:24:32,660 --> 00:24:35,460
went through the stage of delirium.

511
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:36,680
Next is a coma.

512
00:24:38,020 --> 00:24:43,020
And by the next morning, she was in a coma.

513
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,340
And my dad woke us up.

514
00:24:45,340 --> 00:24:46,620
He realized it then.

515
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,340
And rather than call the ambulance,

516
00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:53,140
he hauled her to the hospital in Ennis,

517
00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:54,820
which was a little nothing hospital,

518
00:24:54,820 --> 00:24:56,820
about twice the size of my horse trailer.

519
00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:00,340
When there was perfectly good healthcare in Bozeman,

520
00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:02,940
a bigger town or Butte, which is a big town,

521
00:25:02,940 --> 00:25:04,660
could have probably helped her.

522
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:08,380
And my mom was six foot tall.

523
00:25:08,380 --> 00:25:09,500
She's a big lady.

524
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:14,900
And we had to all three of us put her in the pickup.

525
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:19,420
And she was pretty far gone

526
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:21,260
because the last thing I remember

527
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:26,200
is urine running over my hands

528
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,420
because I was picking up her feet to put her in the truck.

529
00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:31,200
That's my last memory of my mom.

530
00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:36,840
And so, you know, we were really small.

531
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,460
I was fourth or fifth grade.

532
00:25:39,460 --> 00:25:42,340
My brother was in the seventh or eighth grade.

533
00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:44,900
And he just headed to the hospital and he just left,

534
00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:45,980
never said a word.

535
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:49,360
And there we were for four days.

536
00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:53,740
No call or anything from my dad.

537
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:55,820
Nobody come in and checked on us.

538
00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:59,060
We just kind of scrounged around and ate what we could.

539
00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:03,420
And didn't go to school.

540
00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:06,820
We just stayed home and worried, you know?

541
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:14,860
It's kind of a cool story in a way at the end.

542
00:26:14,860 --> 00:26:17,780
But anyway, my dad came home four days later

543
00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:22,500
and he walked in the house and he said,

544
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:24,860
well, boy, she's gone.

545
00:26:27,340 --> 00:26:28,780
He just walked out of the house.

546
00:26:28,780 --> 00:26:32,020
He didn't hug us or comfort us.

547
00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:34,380
We're like, what do you mean gone?

548
00:26:35,220 --> 00:26:36,260
He said, she's dead.

549
00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:38,620
And that's it.

550
00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:43,060
And it was a hell of a thing.

551
00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:48,060
But years later, I got to be friends with a lady

552
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:50,500
who was a nurse in that hospital.

553
00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:54,280
This was probably 30 years later.

554
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,280
She said, I was your mom's nurse in the hospital,

555
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,280
just so you know.

556
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,920
And she said, she'd been in a coma the whole time

557
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,660
for over three days.

558
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,960
And she said they had a TV going to try to stimulate her

559
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,720
back to consciousness.

560
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,720
And she said, you boys' sugar pops commercial played on TV.

561
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,720
And after it played, she died.

562
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:25,500
Really?

563
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:29,860
We're talking about when God winks, it's another moment.

564
00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:31,980
30 years later to meet that lady and hear that.

565
00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:33,380
And that's amazing.

566
00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:34,500
Yeah, yeah.

567
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:35,860
So that was pretty cool.

568
00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:39,140
That was kind of her way of saying goodbye, I guess.

569
00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:40,340
Incredible.

570
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:42,460
Right, well, I mean, obviously you told us

571
00:27:42,460 --> 00:27:44,060
about the cruelty though.

572
00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:45,840
Let me make sure I get the names right.

573
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,820
So I'd love to hear where Coach Claverley

574
00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:52,540
and then Sheriff Johnny France got you out

575
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:55,980
and then Forrest and Betsy Shirley took you guys in.

576
00:27:55,980 --> 00:28:00,980
Well, after that, things got bad in a hurry with my dad.

577
00:28:01,620 --> 00:28:05,700
It went from just abuse to,

578
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:10,340
most people that have been around domestic violence,

579
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:14,420
they know that it always escalates.

580
00:28:14,420 --> 00:28:18,180
They always go to another level each time.

581
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:22,300
And this got to the point to where

582
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,180
over the next couple of years,

583
00:28:26,180 --> 00:28:30,500
my dad had started really drinking a lot

584
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:33,340
and he was never an alcoholic,

585
00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:35,240
but he became one in a few months

586
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,740
because he wanted to die.

587
00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:41,540
And that was his way of committing suicide,

588
00:28:41,540 --> 00:28:42,860
just drinking himself to death,

589
00:28:42,860 --> 00:28:45,460
kind of a bit of a coward's way of going about it.

590
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,020
But that was what I reckoned

591
00:28:48,020 --> 00:28:50,900
because he was never a out of control drinker.

592
00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:54,540
Well, then the more he drank,

593
00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:57,260
the more violent he became, of course.

594
00:28:58,460 --> 00:29:02,020
And it had escalated to the point to where

595
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:06,460
every day walking home from school,

596
00:29:06,460 --> 00:29:09,580
my brother and I would have the same conversation,

597
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:11,040
which is a pretty sick thing to do

598
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,720
when you're in the seventh grade.

599
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:18,440
We would ponder whether we would live through the night

600
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,240
and walk to school the next day.

601
00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:25,180
And we would ponder that if he killed one of us,

602
00:29:25,180 --> 00:29:28,020
would he then feel compelled to kill the other one

603
00:29:28,020 --> 00:29:29,540
so nobody would talk?

604
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,820
And that was our daily conversation.

605
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:36,580
That's a hell of a thing for our little guy to have to

606
00:29:38,420 --> 00:29:40,740
think about every day of his life.

607
00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:43,100
Well, anyway, there'd been some pretty good beatings

608
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:47,100
to where it was kind of noticeable at school.

609
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:48,900
But in those days, law enforcement

610
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,540
didn't interfere much in domestic things like that.

611
00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:55,180
That was a family issue.

612
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,260
And our teachers kind of reported it.

613
00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:04,380
And the sheriff just said, no, stay away from it,

614
00:30:04,380 --> 00:30:08,260
except Johnny France, at the time he wasn't sheriff,

615
00:30:08,260 --> 00:30:10,000
he was deputy.

616
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,700
He became sheriff years later.

617
00:30:12,580 --> 00:30:15,580
Johnny France was good buddies with Coach Cleverly.

618
00:30:17,380 --> 00:30:21,740
And Coach Cleverly talked to Johnny and he said,

619
00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:24,740
we gotta do something.

620
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:26,580
We gotta get those kids out of there.

621
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:32,700
And Johnny, my dad had, over the past year,

622
00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:39,860
had married this mail order woman

623
00:30:39,860 --> 00:30:41,860
that came from Indiana.

624
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:44,620
She answered to add for a housekeeper

625
00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:45,900
and it wasn't too long.

626
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:48,960
My dad had married her and she had a son.

627
00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:53,040
Well, she too had seen the latest beating.

628
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,900
He was on pretty good behavior for a couple of months

629
00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:56,380
after he married her.

630
00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:59,140
And then he went back to his old ways.

631
00:30:59,140 --> 00:31:03,340
Well, she was worried her son was gonna die in the process.

632
00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:04,900
So she split.

633
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:08,860
So between her and Johnny France and Coach Cleverly,

634
00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:12,640
they decided we should be taken away from there.

635
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,700
And Johnny defied the sheriff as deputy.

636
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:20,300
He said, if it's my job, it's my job.

637
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:21,420
I'll get another one.

638
00:31:21,420 --> 00:31:22,660
I'm gonna get those boys.

639
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,500
And at first he put us with this lady who was,

640
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:28,420
I guess you could call her our stepmom

641
00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:30,540
because she'd married my dad.

642
00:31:30,540 --> 00:31:32,380
She's split and she's gonna leave.

643
00:31:33,580 --> 00:31:37,580
So she, and we were reluctant to leave

644
00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:39,720
because in a situation like that,

645
00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:44,460
if you leave, you know there's no going back.

646
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:48,300
And if you leave, we figured we're dead.

647
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:52,980
And she said, don't you worry,

648
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:55,420
I'll raise you boys just like you're my own.

649
00:31:56,380 --> 00:31:58,620
So you'll be okay with me.

650
00:31:58,620 --> 00:32:00,340
And I was friends with her son.

651
00:32:01,580 --> 00:32:06,020
So we stayed with her for about a week.

652
00:32:06,020 --> 00:32:10,860
And she said, get in boys, we're gonna take a drive.

653
00:32:11,820 --> 00:32:14,580
And she drove to the Madison County courthouse

654
00:32:16,180 --> 00:32:18,200
and said, get out.

655
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,460
She said, I'm sorry boys, I don't have any money.

656
00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:23,660
I can't raise three boys.

657
00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:25,740
I can hardly raise my own.

658
00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:27,980
They'll take care of you here.

659
00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:30,980
And we were sitting on the front steps of the courthouse.

660
00:32:32,540 --> 00:32:33,540
Had nothing.

661
00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:36,140
At least we'd had a dad a week before.

662
00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:37,660
Now granted, he probably would have killed us,

663
00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:41,220
but that was more than we had at that point.

664
00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:46,220
And a guy named Emory Smith walked out of the courthouse

665
00:32:46,220 --> 00:32:51,220
and nice old guy, he was a social worker for Madison County.

666
00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:57,620
And nice old fella, he come out and he said,

667
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,540
I heard you boys were coming.

668
00:32:59,540 --> 00:33:01,820
He said, come on into my office.

669
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:03,320
He said, we got it worked out.

670
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,060
He said, you know Johnny France,

671
00:33:06,060 --> 00:33:08,620
he's gonna take you boys for a little while.

672
00:33:08,620 --> 00:33:12,220
And we think we got it figured out where you're gonna go.

673
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:16,340
And we got to talking to him and he said,

674
00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:19,280
do you have any family that would want you?

675
00:33:20,380 --> 00:33:23,540
And we were like, no,

676
00:33:23,540 --> 00:33:26,180
because my mom's side of the family,

677
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:27,580
they all knew what we were going through

678
00:33:27,580 --> 00:33:30,380
and none of them stepped up and said, we'll take the boys.

679
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:35,380
None of them, my mom's sister never said a thing.

680
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,220
And we said, well, we kind of have an aunt and uncle

681
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:40,620
in California, they're not really an aunt and uncle,

682
00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:43,060
but we've always called them that.

683
00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:45,280
They seemed like they liked us pretty good.

684
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,280
So he contacted them and they said, yeah, we can take them,

685
00:33:50,780 --> 00:33:52,340
but we're gonna be gone all summer.

686
00:33:52,340 --> 00:33:54,020
We can't take them till fall.

687
00:33:56,060 --> 00:33:58,140
So Johnny France said,

688
00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:01,700
we're gonna take them to the Shirley Ranch for the summer.

689
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:02,880
They can be there all summer.

690
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,140
They'll be on a ranch and they can just be ranch kids

691
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:09,140
and help and work for being there.

692
00:34:09,140 --> 00:34:12,860
And they've taken in a lot of kids.

693
00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:15,260
So we stayed there and time was coming up,

694
00:34:15,260 --> 00:34:17,320
school was gonna start.

695
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,280
And gosh, we didn't wanna go to California

696
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,140
because our fake aunt and uncle,

697
00:34:23,140 --> 00:34:27,300
they lived in a trailer park in Navajo, California.

698
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:29,460
He worked for the city water department

699
00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:32,500
and she just kind of sat around,

700
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:34,900
smoked cigarettes and drank, typical,

701
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:37,620
kind of a real cliche thing you'd see in the movies.

702
00:34:38,540 --> 00:34:42,700
And we told Betsy, our foster mom,

703
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:45,580
we said, can we stay?

704
00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:46,740
We don't wanna leave.

705
00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:51,820
And she was, gosh, little bitty lady about five feet tall

706
00:34:51,820 --> 00:34:53,380
and Forrest was about six, four.

707
00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:58,180
And he was a tough guy, stern old guy, but fair.

708
00:34:59,580 --> 00:35:04,060
But when it comes to things about kids, she was the boss.

709
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:07,260
And she told Forrest, she said, called him Papa.

710
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,560
She said, Papa, those boys are staying.

711
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:14,580
So that was actually the first time,

712
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:21,020
I remember the night.

713
00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:24,580
It was the first time I ever felt safe in my life,

714
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:26,580
as far as when I went to sleep at night.

715
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:31,880
And I remember I fell asleep on a little bench.

716
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,700
Forrest was there and we were watching TV,

717
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:37,940
watching football or something.

718
00:35:37,940 --> 00:35:40,180
And there was a stack of Navajo blankets right there

719
00:35:40,180 --> 00:35:43,140
and I finally just laid over and put my head on it

720
00:35:43,140 --> 00:35:44,340
and went to sleep.

721
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:45,820
I had mentioned I had to get up and go to bed,

722
00:35:45,820 --> 00:35:48,820
but I went to sleep and I went to sleep so easy

723
00:35:48,820 --> 00:35:53,100
because I just thought tonight,

724
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,100
I don't have anybody to be scared of.

725
00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:57,740
It was the best sleep I ever had.

726
00:35:57,740 --> 00:35:58,780
And what age was that?

727
00:36:00,860 --> 00:36:01,700
12.

728
00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:02,540
See, that's hot, right?

729
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:03,740
My son's 12 right now.

730
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:08,500
And, but I, in a way, I know it sounds kind of weird,

731
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:13,500
but to have that, to experience that feeling of

732
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:18,500
the first time in your life being absolutely safe,

733
00:36:19,660 --> 00:36:23,820
having seen the dark side my whole life up to that point,

734
00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:27,180
I wouldn't trade that feeling for anything.

735
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:30,840
I wish everybody could feel how euphoric that was

736
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,620
to be free from all of that fear.

737
00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:36,220
It's an amazing feeling.

738
00:36:36,220 --> 00:36:37,900
And if you never went through that,

739
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:40,140
you'd have a hard time kind of relating

740
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:41,820
to how good that felt to me.

741
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:42,980
Yeah.

742
00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:45,900
And the gratitude just for what we all take for granted.

743
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:47,180
Yeah.

744
00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:48,500
Yeah.

745
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:49,340
Amazing.

746
00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:52,180
So, well then, so I'd love to kind of explore then

747
00:36:52,180 --> 00:36:56,300
how after watching your dad be brutal to horses

748
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:58,580
and basically you were a child version

749
00:36:58,580 --> 00:37:00,100
of what he was doing to the horses,

750
00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:03,860
how you found your way discovering the compassion side

751
00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:07,300
of the relationship between a human and a horse.

752
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:08,540
I was always,

753
00:37:08,540 --> 00:37:13,540
I was always really tender-hearted, always was.

754
00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:20,020
Yet I wasn't a wimpy kid.

755
00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:23,940
He had to be tough for I grew up,

756
00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:27,620
but I was always really tender-hearted.

757
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:33,700
And my brother wasn't, he wasn't.

758
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,780
And when we went to live with the Shirley's,

759
00:37:36,780 --> 00:37:40,140
he would be kind of mean to me at times,

760
00:37:40,140 --> 00:37:41,940
but you know, nothing where I thought

761
00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:43,900
he was going to kill me or anything.

762
00:37:43,900 --> 00:37:48,900
But I would have thought we'd have been closer than that

763
00:37:50,060 --> 00:37:55,060
after having lived through a lot of near-death experiences.

764
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:55,940
You know?

765
00:37:56,940 --> 00:37:59,940
But it made my brother hard.

766
00:37:59,940 --> 00:38:02,900
It made my brother hard.

767
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:06,500
The circumstances of our lives, it made him hard.

768
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:08,860
Made him hard on the inside.

769
00:38:08,860 --> 00:38:11,820
And yet he eventually got out of high school

770
00:38:11,820 --> 00:38:14,020
and went into the Coast Guard for a career

771
00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:17,260
and had a successful life in the Coast Guard

772
00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:18,980
and was well respected.

773
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:26,300
I've rarely seen him just really happy.

774
00:38:26,740 --> 00:38:27,740
Maybe never.

775
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:32,740
He became very stoic and introverted.

776
00:38:33,740 --> 00:38:38,620
And he wasn't really that way when he was a little boy.

777
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:44,020
But he'll never be any different than what he is.

778
00:38:44,020 --> 00:38:45,580
But he's a good guy.

779
00:38:45,580 --> 00:38:48,820
And he's a good man and he raised three kids.

780
00:38:48,820 --> 00:38:50,740
And he never did anything to his kids

781
00:38:50,740 --> 00:38:53,180
like what happened to us.

782
00:38:53,180 --> 00:38:58,020
So that circle was broken with us.

783
00:38:58,020 --> 00:38:59,820
So he learned enough from it

784
00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:04,060
how to be a better dad than what ours was.

785
00:39:05,780 --> 00:39:10,580
But he never, never has found true happiness.

786
00:39:12,860 --> 00:39:16,420
And I don't suppose he will, really.

787
00:39:16,420 --> 00:39:18,460
And that's what's interesting,

788
00:39:18,460 --> 00:39:20,020
watching the documentary,

789
00:39:20,020 --> 00:39:22,140
you talk about your foster parents

790
00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:24,860
and your daughter and your wife,

791
00:39:24,860 --> 00:39:26,340
but there's not really a mention of him.

792
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:28,180
So I was kind of curious as to what that is.

793
00:39:28,180 --> 00:39:31,380
And then that's two different reactions

794
00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:33,300
to the trauma that you guys had.

795
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:34,740
Yeah.

796
00:39:34,740 --> 00:39:36,980
Yeah, and it's the choices, like I said,

797
00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:38,580
you get to a point in your life where

798
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:41,940
it's all about free will.

799
00:39:41,940 --> 00:39:44,060
How are you gonna deal with it?

800
00:39:44,060 --> 00:39:47,500
Or maybe the right answer is,

801
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:49,740
is you don't really have to deal with it.

802
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:53,020
Because you know, you'll hear a lot of stuff on TV about,

803
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:56,540
did you find closure with this?

804
00:39:56,540 --> 00:40:00,660
Or a lot of that's just a bunch of BS.

805
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:03,380
You don't always find closure.

806
00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:05,900
You don't always reconcile all these things

807
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:07,420
that have happened to you.

808
00:40:07,420 --> 00:40:09,660
Sometimes you just have to move on and go,

809
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:12,220
that was then, and this is now.

810
00:40:12,220 --> 00:40:14,300
And I live in the moment.

811
00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:17,780
Because it's not always gonna be wrapped up

812
00:40:17,780 --> 00:40:19,100
with a tight little bow on it

813
00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:21,220
to where everything's all okay now.

814
00:40:22,020 --> 00:40:24,980
You know, all the damn therapy in the world.

815
00:40:24,980 --> 00:40:28,540
Well, this'll probably ruffle some feathers.

816
00:40:28,540 --> 00:40:30,020
But I've known some therapists

817
00:40:30,020 --> 00:40:31,780
and some of them were kind of nuts.

818
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:35,380
Which may have been what got them into psychotherapy

819
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:38,140
in the first place, the self-analysis.

820
00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:40,340
Yet I've known some that are really helpful

821
00:40:40,340 --> 00:40:45,340
and can change lives that are legit.

822
00:40:45,340 --> 00:40:48,500
But there are some people that I meet just in this business.

823
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:51,300
Oh, I do therapy on this and therapy on that.

824
00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:54,420
And it's like, yesterday you couldn't spell it

825
00:40:54,420 --> 00:40:56,420
and today you are one, right?

826
00:40:56,420 --> 00:40:57,260
Yeah, that's true.

827
00:40:57,260 --> 00:40:59,380
And that's the problem we have with our community too,

828
00:40:59,380 --> 00:41:02,260
is that you'll have a firefighter or a soldier

829
00:41:02,260 --> 00:41:05,260
sent to a therapist who then breaks down in tears

830
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:07,100
because they've never heard it before.

831
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:08,700
They don't know what these people do.

832
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:12,180
And so they're not equipped to deal with that kind of trauma.

833
00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:13,020
Right.

834
00:41:13,020 --> 00:41:16,100
Yeah, in reality, and we've talked about this a little bit,

835
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:21,100
but in reality, it's getting to be very popular.

836
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:23,900
They'll probably find out in the end

837
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,420
that horses are a hell of a lot better therapists

838
00:41:26,420 --> 00:41:28,820
than any human ever started to be.

839
00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:30,100
Mm-hmm, I think dogs are too.

840
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:31,220
Yeah. I really do.

841
00:41:31,220 --> 00:41:33,300
Yeah, there's something to it.

842
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:37,500
And I'm not saying you do it without a human,

843
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:39,420
they're kind of helping the person to understand

844
00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:41,340
what was taking place in the interaction.

845
00:41:41,340 --> 00:41:43,100
Maybe between the dog or the horse

846
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:45,060
and the person needing help.

847
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:48,540
But they're just something pure and good

848
00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:53,140
about the animals and how that applies to people

849
00:41:53,140 --> 00:41:57,140
who are just trying to get their act together, you know?

850
00:41:57,140 --> 00:41:58,740
About the time,

851
00:41:58,740 --> 00:42:03,740
about the time we were taken away from my dad,

852
00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:06,620
we went into a foster home.

853
00:42:06,620 --> 00:42:11,620
And my foster dad was a rancher, but more so a cowboy.

854
00:42:15,420 --> 00:42:20,420
And he was really kind of the first,

855
00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:23,580
I'd say probably the first man

856
00:42:23,580 --> 00:42:26,540
that I ever really thought I wanted to be like.

857
00:42:26,540 --> 00:42:30,740
And that's where I kind of got inspired

858
00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:35,020
to want to be a cowboy and learn about horses.

859
00:42:35,020 --> 00:42:39,620
And this was, I was still in high school then,

860
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:42,420
but it seemed like for me,

861
00:42:43,980 --> 00:42:48,620
the horses were sort of a refuge for me.

862
00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:53,180
And I rode young horses all through high school

863
00:42:53,180 --> 00:42:57,020
because my foster parents, they didn't have much money,

864
00:42:57,020 --> 00:42:58,340
they were poor.

865
00:42:58,340 --> 00:43:00,100
They gave us plenty of love,

866
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:03,780
but we had to work and pay for our food and our clothes

867
00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:06,420
and anything that we needed in the world.

868
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:10,020
So my foster dad told me,

869
00:43:11,020 --> 00:43:14,860
not too long after we moved there,

870
00:43:14,860 --> 00:43:18,460
he said, listen son, he said,

871
00:43:18,460 --> 00:43:20,380
I don't know if you're ever gonna amount to much,

872
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:24,700
but he said, so I'm gonna show you how to shew a horse

873
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,580
and I'm gonna show you how to ride a colt.

874
00:43:27,580 --> 00:43:29,700
And then that way, you'll always be able to eat

875
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:31,500
and I won't have to worry about you.

876
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:35,780
And that's kind of where it got started for me.

877
00:43:35,780 --> 00:43:39,260
I rode colts all through high school

878
00:43:39,260 --> 00:43:41,220
and I'd get up at four in the morning

879
00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:45,180
and ride a couple of horses before we'd go down

880
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:46,460
and get on the school bus.

881
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:50,620
And in the nice weather, nice parts of the year,

882
00:43:50,620 --> 00:43:53,180
I'd ride a colt with him in the evenings as well.

883
00:43:53,180 --> 00:43:55,700
So I was making a decent living

884
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:57,700
while I was still in high school.

885
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:02,700
And that's where I first heard the name Ray Hunt.

886
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:08,660
And that was from my business math teacher

887
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,500
and typing teacher.

888
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:13,500
They didn't teach typing, I suppose, anymore in schools.

889
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:17,860
But her and her husband had a little ranch

890
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:21,220
and they raised horses and she had been to a clinic

891
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:23,380
that Ray Hunt put on in the Madison Valley.

892
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:28,380
And she knew I was kind of a local colt starter

893
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:32,340
and thought I was kind of a bunk rider

894
00:44:32,340 --> 00:44:34,780
and kind of had a bit of a reputation locally.

895
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:37,820
So she tried to tell me about this Ray Hunt

896
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:41,020
and the amazing things that he could do with horses.

897
00:44:41,020 --> 00:44:42,820
And I just sort of brushed it off.

898
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:46,300
Teenager, kind of cocky.

899
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:48,860
I said, oh, he's probably just some horse show guy.

900
00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:53,860
And so she said, well, I'm not gonna argue with you,

901
00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:57,100
but maybe if you ever get a chance to run across him,

902
00:44:57,100 --> 00:44:59,820
you should look him up, he could do you a lot of good.

903
00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:03,180
And then flash forward and that was year two

904
00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:04,780
and then I'm out of high school.

905
00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:10,780
And it just so happened that I was looking

906
00:45:10,780 --> 00:45:12,580
for a cowboy job out of high school.

907
00:45:12,580 --> 00:45:16,300
That's really all I wanted to do was be a cowboy on a ranch.

908
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:19,460
And initially when I left home,

909
00:45:20,340 --> 00:45:23,940
I got a job for the summer putting up hay and irrigating

910
00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:25,860
and doing all the things I hate to do.

911
00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:29,500
And I've been all summer long,

912
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:32,460
I've been talking to this cow out there

913
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:33,900
but I knew they had a cowboy crew

914
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:36,060
and I wanted them to hire me.

915
00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:40,060
And they kind of kept putting me off and putting me off.

916
00:45:40,060 --> 00:45:45,060
Well, finally I had a small accident with a swather.

917
00:45:45,060 --> 00:45:47,460
I don't know if you know what a swather is,

918
00:45:47,460 --> 00:45:49,620
but what you can't pay with.

919
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:53,620
I'm distinguished as being the only guy

920
00:45:53,620 --> 00:45:56,420
in Madison County, Montana that ever rolled a swather.

921
00:45:57,580 --> 00:46:00,020
It kind of ran off with me.

922
00:46:01,180 --> 00:46:03,820
Had a big wreck, I didn't get hurt.

923
00:46:03,820 --> 00:46:07,380
But needless to say, the boss wasn't too happy

924
00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:09,180
when I walked into the headquarters.

925
00:46:10,660 --> 00:46:13,460
But it was interesting, this friend of mine, Monty,

926
00:46:13,460 --> 00:46:14,860
that I used to play basketball with,

927
00:46:14,860 --> 00:46:17,780
we're both working on that hay ranching.

928
00:46:17,780 --> 00:46:19,580
That morning I rolled my bed roll.

929
00:46:20,540 --> 00:46:22,700
Well, we were having coffee and he said,

930
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:24,460
what the hell are you doing?

931
00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:26,660
I said, I don't know, I just felt like

932
00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:29,260
I needed to roll my bed this morning.

933
00:46:29,260 --> 00:46:31,860
And so by the end of the day,

934
00:46:31,860 --> 00:46:34,740
I had wrecked the guy's swather.

935
00:46:34,740 --> 00:46:37,780
It was kind of his fault because he didn't maintain it.

936
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:39,100
You know, it malfunctioned.

937
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:43,140
But nevertheless, I was dragging it.

938
00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:46,220
So as I walked by the shop at headquarters,

939
00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:48,060
he asked where his beloved swather was

940
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:50,380
and I said, it's up there in the field.

941
00:46:50,380 --> 00:46:51,940
And he said, what's he doing up there?

942
00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:53,940
I said, it's arresting.

943
00:46:53,940 --> 00:46:55,700
He tried to kill me when I won.

944
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:00,020
He didn't see the humor at the time.

945
00:47:00,020 --> 00:47:02,660
So he said, well, you can just pack your,

946
00:47:02,660 --> 00:47:05,860
I said, oddly enough, it's already packed.

947
00:47:05,860 --> 00:47:07,860
I said, I'll be seeing you.

948
00:47:07,860 --> 00:47:10,860
And five minutes later, I was driving away in my pickup.

949
00:47:10,860 --> 00:47:13,820
So I stopped at the bar in Harrison

950
00:47:13,820 --> 00:47:15,140
and I called that cow out for it.

951
00:47:15,140 --> 00:47:18,380
And I said, listen, I need a job now

952
00:47:18,380 --> 00:47:19,900
because I just left this one.

953
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:23,420
I said, so if you want a cowboy,

954
00:47:23,420 --> 00:47:24,900
you got to hire me right now.

955
00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:28,100
And they said, well, come on down.

956
00:47:28,100 --> 00:47:31,460
We don't really need anybody right now, but come on down.

957
00:47:31,460 --> 00:47:33,460
And the boss met me there and he said,

958
00:47:34,460 --> 00:47:36,180
you see that pen of horses over there?

959
00:47:36,180 --> 00:47:37,460
I said, yeah.

960
00:47:37,460 --> 00:47:39,740
He said, well, every one of them have

961
00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:41,860
you can run away, buck somebody off,

962
00:47:41,860 --> 00:47:43,620
lift over backwards.

963
00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:48,620
Every one of them been ruined by one cowboy or another.

964
00:47:48,660 --> 00:47:49,780
And if you can prove to me

965
00:47:49,780 --> 00:47:52,140
that you can make a living on those horses,

966
00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:53,540
you got a job, you can stay.

967
00:47:53,540 --> 00:47:55,140
And if you can't handle it,

968
00:47:55,140 --> 00:47:56,980
you might as well keep right on going.

969
00:47:57,900 --> 00:47:59,460
And I said, yeah, no problem.

970
00:48:00,380 --> 00:48:02,340
They looked fine to me.

971
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:05,900
And well, they weren't, they were some tough boogers.

972
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:08,500
But it just so happened, you know, I was,

973
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:10,780
I wasn't super skilled, but I was pretty tough.

974
00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:14,780
I rode those horses for a couple of months

975
00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:16,980
and lo and behold, that ranch is the ranch

976
00:48:16,980 --> 00:48:20,380
that was kind of hooked into ray hunt.

977
00:48:20,380 --> 00:48:23,380
And since I'd survived a couple of months,

978
00:48:24,460 --> 00:48:26,420
not necessarily doing ray hunt stuff,

979
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:28,940
but just kind of gripping it out,

980
00:48:28,940 --> 00:48:30,780
they sent me to a ray hunt clinic

981
00:48:30,780 --> 00:48:34,260
and that's the rest is history.

982
00:48:34,260 --> 00:48:36,780
I rode with them for the next 35 years

983
00:48:36,780 --> 00:48:40,900
and got to be like family to Ray and Carolyn.

984
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:45,020
In fact, that's who I'm going to see tomorrow in Australia.

985
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:47,940
Me and Carolyn are doing an advanced area.

986
00:48:47,940 --> 00:48:51,660
So yeah, it's, I just landed at the right place

987
00:48:51,660 --> 00:48:52,580
at the right time.

988
00:48:52,580 --> 00:48:56,620
And I often thought that because of all the dark things

989
00:48:56,620 --> 00:48:58,900
that I went through when I was a kid,

990
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:01,940
almost like God one day just thought, you know what?

991
00:49:01,940 --> 00:49:04,060
Maybe we ought to throw the little bastard a bone.

992
00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:05,700
Maybe we ought to give him a break.

993
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:08,620
Well, when in the documentary,

994
00:49:08,620 --> 00:49:11,820
they show the clips of, you know, people,

995
00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:14,300
old clips of people breaking horses, you know,

996
00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:18,300
whipping them and all the cruelty that goes along with that.

997
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:20,380
Going back to Ray's early life,

998
00:49:20,380 --> 00:49:24,580
so what was it that kind of enlightened him

999
00:49:24,580 --> 00:49:26,180
to using the polar opposite,

1000
00:49:26,180 --> 00:49:29,980
using the kindness and compassion into not breaking a horse,

1001
00:49:29,980 --> 00:49:32,780
but getting a horse to trust the person that is with?

1002
00:49:32,780 --> 00:49:36,580
Well, Ray had also grown up kind of doing it old school,

1003
00:49:36,580 --> 00:49:40,580
you know, and, you know, in fairness,

1004
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:42,060
a lot of the old timers,

1005
00:49:42,060 --> 00:49:46,300
they weren't all just cruel barbarians either, you know.

1006
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:47,660
Some were worse than others.

1007
00:49:47,660 --> 00:49:50,820
And of course, you know, that looks more dramatic

1008
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:55,740
to see old videos of people just molesting a horse,

1009
00:49:55,740 --> 00:49:58,060
but not all of them were that way.

1010
00:49:58,060 --> 00:50:00,100
But it was most certainly rough

1011
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:04,780
and there wasn't much of the psychological part

1012
00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:09,500
coming into play with the way they worked horses.

1013
00:50:09,500 --> 00:50:13,780
But Ray, he had become a really well-known

1014
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:16,620
and renowned cowboy in the Great Basin.

1015
00:50:16,620 --> 00:50:20,780
And he had a horse that he just couldn't get along with

1016
00:50:20,780 --> 00:50:24,620
named Hondo, which was a pretty famous horse later on.

1017
00:50:24,620 --> 00:50:30,620
And he had heard about this guru named Tom Dorrance.

1018
00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:34,900
And, you know, Tom Dorrance was, you know,

1019
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:37,220
like Yoda or something, you know.

1020
00:50:37,220 --> 00:50:40,700
He was a genius with horses.

1021
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:45,260
And Tom, in his early life growing up in Oregon,

1022
00:50:45,260 --> 00:50:49,460
had devoted himself to finding a way to work with horses

1023
00:50:49,460 --> 00:50:53,500
that as if maybe the horse got to help you make up the rules,

1024
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:56,260
how you get him to understand.

1025
00:50:56,260 --> 00:51:00,380
And he spent his whole life studying the horse.

1026
00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:03,260
And I got to know Tom in later years.

1027
00:51:03,260 --> 00:51:05,260
And I said, how did you do it, Tom?

1028
00:51:05,260 --> 00:51:07,540
How did it all start for you?

1029
00:51:07,540 --> 00:51:11,460
And he said, well, I grew up a very small kid.

1030
00:51:11,460 --> 00:51:15,300
I couldn't overpower horses like the other kids did

1031
00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,540
that were bigger and stronger and more athletic.

1032
00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:19,900
And he said, and plus, I just didn't like

1033
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:21,060
how they worked with horses.

1034
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:25,100
I didn't think a horse should have to go through that much

1035
00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:28,740
trouble to be able to do a job for you.

1036
00:51:28,740 --> 00:51:32,420
And he said, so I, he said, I know it sounds crazy,

1037
00:51:32,420 --> 00:51:35,340
but I just started everything I do with a horse.

1038
00:51:35,340 --> 00:51:39,540
I would just do the opposite of what everybody else was doing.

1039
00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:45,220
No matter how outlandish it seemed, I'd do the opposite.

1040
00:51:45,220 --> 00:51:47,900
And he said, more often than not, it worked.

1041
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:49,860
He said, sometimes it didn't.

1042
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:53,340
But he said, that's where my experimenting began.

1043
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:57,580
And he said, I would try things and fail and try again

1044
00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:59,700
and succeed and remember it.

1045
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:01,900
And it just so happened that Tom Dorrance

1046
00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:05,300
had a photographic memory.

1047
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:09,900
He told me one time, he said, I remember every moment of my life.

1048
00:52:12,380 --> 00:52:16,300
And I thought, oh crap, I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

1049
00:52:16,300 --> 00:52:19,380
I was thinking the same thing.

1050
00:52:19,380 --> 00:52:26,220
But so because of that, he was able to acquire so much knowledge

1051
00:52:26,220 --> 00:52:29,220
in the 94 years that he was here.

1052
00:52:29,220 --> 00:52:34,420
And the first person that he really shared it with, to a great extent,

1053
00:52:34,420 --> 00:52:35,180
was Ray Hunt.

1054
00:52:35,180 --> 00:52:39,900
And Tom always said that Ray Hunt was his greatest student.

1055
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:47,420
And it was like a perfect storm, because Ray was at a desperate time

1056
00:52:47,420 --> 00:52:52,260
in his life to find a way to work with this horse.

1057
00:52:52,260 --> 00:52:54,020
So he met Tom.

1058
00:52:54,020 --> 00:52:58,180
And then they spent almost nonstop the next nine years together.

1059
00:52:58,180 --> 00:53:05,620
And without Ray Hunt bringing this style of horsemanship to the world,

1060
00:53:05,620 --> 00:53:08,580
nobody would have ever heard of Tom Dorrance.

1061
00:53:08,580 --> 00:53:12,020
But likewise, without Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt

1062
00:53:12,020 --> 00:53:14,500
would have just been another cowboy in the Great Basin

1063
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,500
and would have remained in obscurity.

1064
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:24,620
So it was a divine meeting that the two of them became friends.

1065
00:53:24,620 --> 00:53:30,260
Now, so you've got Ray as Tom's student and then you as Ray's.

1066
00:53:30,260 --> 00:53:35,220
Do you see any similarities in personality of that young person

1067
00:53:35,220 --> 00:53:39,140
who first went in and met that mentor, knowing that probably there

1068
00:53:39,140 --> 00:53:43,660
were many others that went there and just weren't the right fit?

1069
00:53:43,660 --> 00:53:47,220
Yeah, yeah, I do.

1070
00:53:47,220 --> 00:53:54,020
Like I was kind of looping back to the personality differences,

1071
00:53:54,020 --> 00:53:58,860
say, between my brother and I and how we dealt with some

1072
00:53:58,860 --> 00:54:02,700
of the more difficult things in our childhood.

1073
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:07,100
I was always a really tender-hearted kid.

1074
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:12,020
And that was part of my makeup.

1075
00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:19,020
And so it was almost like that was so much a part of my being

1076
00:54:19,020 --> 00:54:27,100
that no matter what happened to me, that wasn't going to change at all.

1077
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:35,180
And yet I think some people are, from a series of unfortunate events,

1078
00:54:35,180 --> 00:54:38,340
some people are changed by it.

1079
00:54:38,340 --> 00:54:45,060
That they may not have been that person had things not gone wrong in their earlier life.

1080
00:54:45,060 --> 00:54:48,300
They might have been someone else.

1081
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:53,860
So then when you're working with Ray, to turn it around the other way,

1082
00:54:53,860 --> 00:55:01,740
what was it he saw in you that made him realize that you were the right person to walk through the door?

1083
00:55:01,740 --> 00:55:11,860
Well, first of all, he saw right off that I'm capable of working really hard and being absolutely focused.

1084
00:55:11,860 --> 00:55:17,460
And he noticed when he was teaching, there was never a word I missed.

1085
00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:23,220
There was never a time where he picked up on a rein or moved a foot that I didn't see it.

1086
00:55:23,220 --> 00:55:25,500
He knew how focused I was.

1087
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:28,060
And he knew how bad I wanted it.

1088
00:55:28,060 --> 00:55:30,260
He got a sense of that pretty early on.

1089
00:55:30,260 --> 00:55:37,340
And I think that made him feel like investing his time with me was worthwhile.

1090
00:55:37,340 --> 00:55:44,420
Yeah, and I remember looking at noticing that when you were teaching at the workshop that I got to sit into,

1091
00:55:44,420 --> 00:55:49,180
that even though it was a pretty big arena and people weren't exactly right next to you,

1092
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:56,620
that you were picking up on too much pressure and a spur or just a little bit too much pull on the rein or whatever it was.

1093
00:55:56,620 --> 00:55:57,740
And I know it's the same thing.

1094
00:55:57,740 --> 00:56:00,900
Like you, even though they were all circling around you,

1095
00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:07,020
you were able to notice even the tiny little mistakes that some of these riders were making.

1096
00:56:07,020 --> 00:56:09,180
Yeah, yeah.

1097
00:56:09,180 --> 00:56:11,380
But of course, you know, that's experience.

1098
00:56:11,380 --> 00:56:19,860
You know, I'm just starting my 38th year since my first clinic.

1099
00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:24,260
So, yeah, I've had quite a bit of experience at it now.

1100
00:56:24,260 --> 00:56:27,940
I believe I'm the old guy doing this.

1101
00:56:27,940 --> 00:56:29,380
I'm starting to believe that myself.

1102
00:56:29,380 --> 00:56:31,220
Trust me, I'm 45, which is not old.

1103
00:56:31,220 --> 00:56:36,180
But yeah, you start thinking that this movie came out at this time.

1104
00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:38,660
You're like, oh, my God, that was 30 years ago.

1105
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:41,300
That's crazy. Yeah.

1106
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:47,460
So what I'd love to do then is just transition to, you know, as the quote unquote horse whisper,

1107
00:56:47,460 --> 00:56:53,940
you know, the principles that Tom taught Ray and Ray taught you.

1108
00:56:53,940 --> 00:56:59,540
What are some of the common mistakes you see now with these horse owners?

1109
00:56:59,540 --> 00:57:05,260
Because, I mean, again, I've had some canine officers and members of the military

1110
00:57:05,260 --> 00:57:10,060
and they talk the same thing. It's usually the owner of the dog that's making the mistake.

1111
00:57:10,060 --> 00:57:14,300
So what are some of the most common things that you've seen over this entire, you know,

1112
00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:20,020
three plus decades with these horse owners?

1113
00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:27,860
Well, you know, it does harken back to, of course, I wrote the line for Redford in the horse whisper

1114
00:57:27,860 --> 00:57:35,060
when he said, I don't help people with horse problems, I help horses with people problems.

1115
00:57:35,060 --> 00:57:41,500
Of course, Redford didn't ever tell anybody I wrote that.

1116
00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:43,980
It's a world exclusive now.

1117
00:57:43,980 --> 00:57:48,660
It got his attention, you know, he was like, I get what you're talking about.

1118
00:57:48,660 --> 00:57:54,940
And really and truly, it's that people don't understand the nature of a horse.

1119
00:57:54,940 --> 00:58:00,860
They don't understand why he does what he does, what he's thinking, what he's really feeling.

1120
00:58:00,860 --> 00:58:05,900
They don't and they don't understand how to approach a horse with a feel.

1121
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:14,100
And I don't mean in that physical sense. I do partly, but with a feel that fits the horse,

1122
00:58:14,100 --> 00:58:18,380
that can be reassuring to the horse, that can give comfort to the horse.

1123
00:58:18,380 --> 00:58:26,380
You know, there an extreme version of it is, I was talking about a person that's a kind of a mutual friend of mine

1124
00:58:26,380 --> 00:58:34,060
and another friend and how he struggles with working with horses.

1125
00:58:34,060 --> 00:58:36,020
And he said, what is the deal with him?

1126
00:58:36,020 --> 00:58:41,500
And I said, you know what, if you poke the wire up his body, he could light half a Vegas.

1127
00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:47,980
And it's his nature that needs to change in order to fit horses and he's working at it.

1128
00:58:47,980 --> 00:58:50,380
But it doesn't come easy for him.

1129
00:58:50,380 --> 00:58:59,660
And but anybody can really learn this, but it's going to take some knowledge

1130
00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:07,700
and it's going to take a lot of hard work, a devotion, and it takes a hell of a lot of humility

1131
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:11,740
because there's going to be a lot of times you're going to have to admit you're wrong.

1132
00:59:11,740 --> 00:59:14,860
That's not easy for people.

1133
00:59:14,860 --> 00:59:22,860
A lot of times what happens is if a horse is doing something that the owner thinks is wrong,

1134
00:59:22,860 --> 00:59:26,140
well, it's right to the horse or he wouldn't be doing it.

1135
00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:29,940
But they take it personally and it's not personal to the horse.

1136
00:59:29,940 --> 00:59:32,300
He's doing the best he can to survive.

1137
00:59:32,300 --> 00:59:39,700
Another thing that I really kind of resonated with in the documentary was the whole concept of fear.

1138
00:59:39,700 --> 00:59:44,260
And, you know, we talk about even when I was little, I said if my father was a horse vet,

1139
00:59:44,260 --> 00:59:47,980
a veterinarian, so I was around horses my whole childhood.

1140
00:59:47,980 --> 00:59:52,620
But, you know, you could see even as a small kid that when someone was scared of horses,

1141
00:59:52,620 --> 00:59:58,820
same with dogs, they pick up on that, you know, and then that the anxiety seems to project back onto the horse as well.

1142
00:59:58,820 --> 01:00:05,980
So what are your philosophies when you're teaching these clinics on fear?

1143
01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:12,100
Well, number one, it all goes back in the clinics to helping the person to understand

1144
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:17,020
that the thing they first and foremost need to communicate with the horse is,

1145
01:00:17,020 --> 01:00:23,060
look, you're a herd animal and you need to understand about me that I'm capable of moving your feet.

1146
01:00:23,060 --> 01:00:26,180
I'm capable of getting you to yield to me.

1147
01:00:26,180 --> 01:00:30,700
But you need to know I don't want you to yield to me because you're afraid.

1148
01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:34,660
I want you to yield to me because it's the easiest thing for both of us.

1149
01:00:34,660 --> 01:00:36,820
Both of us will feel relief through that.

1150
01:00:36,820 --> 01:00:41,060
So that's why I'll have people work with horses on the ground first.

1151
01:00:41,060 --> 01:00:44,180
On the end of a lead rope to start the dance.

1152
01:00:44,180 --> 01:00:47,020
What's going to be a great dance their whole life?

1153
01:00:47,020 --> 01:00:48,500
That's where the dance begins.

1154
01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:57,860
And when a person feels like they they absolutely do have some influence on how that horse moves his feet.

1155
01:00:57,860 --> 01:01:04,460
That gives them confidence that when they get on, they can expect the same thing.

1156
01:01:04,460 --> 01:01:11,020
Yeah. So when there's when there's trust and the fear starts to diminish, then it's it magnifies.

1157
01:01:11,020 --> 01:01:14,940
That relationship with every single time they're getting back on.

1158
01:01:14,940 --> 01:01:19,540
Sure. And and they'll through working with them on the ground before they ride them,

1159
01:01:19,540 --> 01:01:24,860
they'll start to recognize the horse actually turning loose to them, giving to them,

1160
01:01:24,860 --> 01:01:31,420
giving everything and giving up his his fear or his inclination to defend himself.

1161
01:01:31,420 --> 01:01:39,100
And that that moves people and moves them in the right direction to where they to where they're

1162
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:45,180
inclined to to offer the horse something very fitting when they get on.

1163
01:01:45,180 --> 01:01:51,100
But fear can be here can be paralyzing for the human and the horse.

1164
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:58,340
Well, speaking of that, have you got any stories that kind of popped to mind of some broken horses,

1165
01:01:58,340 --> 01:02:06,620
slash people that you've worked with that have had an incredible journey together and a lot of healing?

1166
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:12,620
Well, you know, actually, no, I can't single out one person.

1167
01:02:12,620 --> 01:02:17,340
But I'll tell you this, I if I had.

1168
01:02:17,340 --> 01:02:24,260
And I have quite a few, but I've kept some some letters over the years, but.

1169
01:02:24,260 --> 01:02:26,820
If I had kept them all, it would fill my hotel room.

1170
01:02:26,820 --> 01:02:30,740
I'm sitting in right now of people that in one way or another,

1171
01:02:30,740 --> 01:02:34,140
through working with the horse and becoming acquainted with me,

1172
01:02:34,140 --> 01:02:40,780
how it profoundly changed their life in a way that another human couldn't have given them that.

1173
01:02:40,780 --> 01:02:45,820
I mean, there there are thousands of stories and.

1174
01:02:45,820 --> 01:02:53,220
Every one of them is is really important to the person that wrote me the letter, you know, it's.

1175
01:02:53,220 --> 01:03:00,180
And I wouldn't say that every single person that goes to a clinic is going to have a life changing experience.

1176
01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:05,820
Some are going to go home just thinking, well, I'm getting along a whole lot better with my horse.

1177
01:03:05,820 --> 01:03:11,140
I can get him to do some things I never got him to do before, and I know more than I did last week.

1178
01:03:11,140 --> 01:03:16,300
But there is always going to be a percentage of them.

1179
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:20,460
That the horse will profoundly change their life for the better.

1180
01:03:20,460 --> 01:03:30,500
And and those are the those are the stories that you really like to hear about.

1181
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:36,540
Yeah, well, I've heard like several of my peers in a first responder and military community

1182
01:03:36,540 --> 01:03:42,740
have such a powerful response to equine therapy when they've, you know, we're dealing with things like PTSD.

1183
01:03:42,740 --> 01:03:49,340
What is it you think the about the horse and that relationship that's healing for a human

1184
01:03:49,340 --> 01:03:53,100
that maybe hasn't even ridden much before?

1185
01:03:53,100 --> 01:04:02,140
Well, you know, I think and I'm no expert on PTSD, but again, I've often pondered that maybe maybe I have that as a kid,

1186
01:04:02,140 --> 01:04:07,500
because, gosh knows, I dealt with life and death every single day through my childhood.

1187
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:12,460
But we didn't even know what it was then. So maybe I do know something about it.

1188
01:04:12,460 --> 01:04:15,180
I'd say so. I really would.

1189
01:04:15,180 --> 01:04:25,820
But I do. But I do know this, that there's something profoundly comforting about the horse when he does respond to you.

1190
01:04:25,820 --> 01:04:38,540
And then all of the possibilities of negativity that could come out in a person from having endured really traumatic things in their life.

1191
01:04:38,540 --> 01:04:46,860
Every one of those negative characteristics will guarantee you fail with horse.

1192
01:04:46,860 --> 01:04:52,860
The horse won't cover for you. He won't respond in spite of that. He just won't.

1193
01:04:52,860 --> 01:04:59,100
And frankly, dogs are not always that way.

1194
01:04:59,100 --> 01:05:08,460
Sometimes dogs will respond really positively to people that you just think, why would that dog even like that person?

1195
01:05:08,460 --> 01:05:15,820
It's a different animal. The dog is a different animal. And yet they can be so beneficial in helping people.

1196
01:05:15,820 --> 01:05:25,100
But the horse is a little more choosy. There's something really unique about the horse that when the horse responds to a person,

1197
01:05:25,100 --> 01:05:33,900
like I've often said to people, if your horse says you're a dirty SOB, well, you are.

1198
01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:42,140
And yet if the horse, by the way, responds to you, he says you're a good guy, you are. You don't need me to tell you that.

1199
01:05:42,140 --> 01:05:53,980
The horse just did. And I think that might be why the horses are so profoundly effective in helping troubled people.

1200
01:05:53,980 --> 01:06:00,300
Well, it seems like it's almost like a great mirror, like you were saying. It's showing you what you are.

1201
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:08,940
But then as you improve as a person with your emotional journey, as long as you haven't destroyed the trust at the beginning,

1202
01:06:08,940 --> 01:06:13,580
it's then going to come along with that journey. And when you realize the horse trusts you,

1203
01:06:13,580 --> 01:06:23,260
I'm assuming that then that individual is going to have realization that they are at a certain point way further than they ever were before.

1204
01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:29,020
Absolutely. I've said it a million times over the years. The horse is a mirror to your soul.

1205
01:06:29,020 --> 01:06:38,140
So kind of transitioning from that for a moment, you obviously had a very rocky childhood.

1206
01:06:38,140 --> 01:06:43,900
What was it like for you when you became a father? Because I know we talk about the cycle with you and your brother breaking that.

1207
01:06:43,900 --> 01:06:50,900
And that's absolutely something that we talk about on this a lot, where even if you came from alcoholism or abuse, whatever,

1208
01:06:50,900 --> 01:07:00,740
it's up to that generation to say, you know, this is where it dies as a dad now. What was it like when you first became a dad?

1209
01:07:00,740 --> 01:07:08,740
You know, it was I'd had years to think about it, and it was pretty much the opposite about it,

1210
01:07:08,740 --> 01:07:17,540
pretty much the opposite of what I grew up experiencing as a little guy.

1211
01:07:17,540 --> 01:07:29,300
I had a really good idea what kind of a dad I wanted to be, because I had a really clear idea what kind of a dad I didn't want to be.

1212
01:07:29,300 --> 01:07:36,900
And so honestly, I didn't struggle that much with it.

1213
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:45,220
I've got an amazing relationship with my daughter and always have had and always will.

1214
01:07:45,220 --> 01:07:52,740
And not the kids still can't be difficult. Anybody who's a parent gets that, you know, they're going to give you a hard time at times.

1215
01:07:52,740 --> 01:07:58,900
But, you know, that's just part of the experience of being a parent.

1216
01:07:58,900 --> 01:08:12,820
But I guess for a while when Riyadah was small, I sort of, sort of always had it in the back of my mind to sort of police my behavior,

1217
01:08:12,820 --> 01:08:19,620
just trying to make sure that I noticed if even a little bit of my dad surfaced in me,

1218
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:23,140
that I would know it right away and do something about it.

1219
01:08:23,140 --> 01:08:28,420
And I guess I sort of lived a little bit in fear of that for the first few years.

1220
01:08:28,420 --> 01:08:35,140
And then I realized, well, that's not going to happen. So I should over quit worrying about it.

1221
01:08:35,140 --> 01:08:39,300
Because that's something that's not spoken about. You know, we talked about the horse being a mirror to your soul.

1222
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:47,540
I think that our children are as well. And obviously there's two parents involved at minimum, you know, unless one is completely left.

1223
01:08:47,540 --> 01:08:53,220
And I think that's something that we need to pay attention to as well, is if your child is acting a certain way,

1224
01:08:53,220 --> 01:08:59,380
then you need to also look in the mirror and see if that's something you're projecting on your child as you would a horse.

1225
01:08:59,380 --> 01:09:06,100
Yeah, well, it's like that old saying goes, they have the rocks, the cradle rules the world.

1226
01:09:06,100 --> 01:09:13,140
Yeah, exactly. Now, very kind of tangent question, but I know when I was watching you,

1227
01:09:13,140 --> 01:09:23,620
I don't know why this popped into my head, but so you're using kindness and compassion and blowing everyone's minds when it comes to the horse world.

1228
01:09:23,620 --> 01:09:27,860
You know, and these people that are clearly been in the horse world for a long time, you know,

1229
01:09:27,860 --> 01:09:31,860
are attending your clinics and having these amazing breakthroughs.

1230
01:09:31,860 --> 01:09:36,420
And it made me think about, for example, the way we do the prison system here.

1231
01:09:36,420 --> 01:09:44,420
We take broken humans and they are broken because obviously no one is born and becomes a laughing little toddler.

1232
01:09:44,420 --> 01:09:49,540
And it's like one day I'm going to rob banks or I'm going to deal drugs. You know, they're taking down that road.

1233
01:09:49,540 --> 01:10:00,260
So what if you were able to just completely reimagine the law enforcement and the prison system,

1234
01:10:00,260 --> 01:10:04,100
knowing what you know about kindness and compassion with horses?

1235
01:10:04,100 --> 01:10:17,060
What would be some of the things that you think you would put into that so that we actually were able to turn these men and women around from the trauma of their past and turn it into positivity?

1236
01:10:17,060 --> 01:10:26,180
Well, you know, I think there's that's been dabbled with a little bit in some of the prison programs out west here have done the Mustang thing,

1237
01:10:26,180 --> 01:10:38,660
having them start horses and work with horses. And I think that has been amazingly enough a government program that actually succeeded.

1238
01:10:38,660 --> 01:10:41,540
Brilliant.

1239
01:10:41,540 --> 01:10:45,780
Which you don't get to say that very often.

1240
01:10:45,780 --> 01:10:52,740
But I think that has been a really good thing. And I think there could be a lot more of that.

1241
01:10:52,740 --> 01:11:04,980
And, you know, I'm not Pollyanna either. I understand that some people are they are destined to be criminals and they're going to be criminals their whole life, no matter what we try to do.

1242
01:11:04,980 --> 01:11:16,580
But there are some that aren't. And I think there's probably quite a few that slip through the cracks that through the right things happening could have found some redemption.

1243
01:11:16,580 --> 01:11:27,220
And again, I think the horse can be a big player in that. And it has proven every time they've ever done it in the prison system, it's proven to be a success.

1244
01:11:27,220 --> 01:11:30,340
Brilliant. I love hearing that. And they have dog programs in the prisons, too.

1245
01:11:30,340 --> 01:11:33,820
Like, there's just there's some things that we don't do.

1246
01:11:33,820 --> 01:11:39,380
You know, we use the school, the Philadelphia model, where we just lock them up into buildings with no windows.

1247
01:11:39,380 --> 01:11:40,980
And, you know, I'm not picking on us.

1248
01:11:40,980 --> 01:11:52,420
I mean, England does it and a lot of the world does the same system. But you think about all the healing elements, you know, the just being in the outdoors, seeing the sun every day, being around animals.

1249
01:11:52,420 --> 01:12:05,300
You know, these seem to be so so easy to use and incorporate that maybe, like you said, that middle 50 percent that maybe we can steer might actually leave and then become functioning members of society.

1250
01:12:05,300 --> 01:12:10,420
Sure. Well, there's actually a few prisons I'm aware of out west here.

1251
01:12:10,420 --> 01:12:17,220
Frankly, one in Montana, Deer Lodge, Montana, they have prison ranches and they learn how to cowboy.

1252
01:12:17,220 --> 01:12:22,660
They learn how to shoe horses, drive tractors, eargate, put up hay.

1253
01:12:22,660 --> 01:12:26,940
It's just like a regular working ranch. They just happen to be inmates.

1254
01:12:26,940 --> 01:12:33,580
And, you know, and that's based on, you know, good behavior, getting to work on the prison ranch.

1255
01:12:33,580 --> 01:12:50,340
And they so they learn so many things about agriculture, not just working with horses like I do, but they they end up a lot of them leaving the Deer Lodge penitentiary and going out on ranches and having a job and being productive.

1256
01:12:50,340 --> 01:13:00,740
And yeah, so there's some of that that's possible out west here that wouldn't be possible in, you know, in a more urban type setting.

1257
01:13:00,740 --> 01:13:02,860
Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting to me.

1258
01:13:02,860 --> 01:13:05,580
I know we have one of our prisons here.

1259
01:13:05,580 --> 01:13:09,820
They I know they certainly grow food and I believe I'm told it's for the prison.

1260
01:13:09,820 --> 01:13:10,780
Well, that's fantastic.

1261
01:13:10,780 --> 01:13:26,540
It's not only do the inmates get to be out there growing it, but they actually get nourishing food to eat rather than, you know, whatever the process alternative with, which I think in turn is then going to help them feel more vibrant and want to do something with their life.

1262
01:13:26,540 --> 01:13:28,820
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

1263
01:13:28,820 --> 01:13:30,420
Right. Well, then one other thing.

1264
01:13:30,420 --> 01:13:34,260
So, like you said, you've been doing this 38 years with the clinics.

1265
01:13:34,260 --> 01:13:42,220
You have one element of this whole project is is wellness, you know, mental wellness that we've talked quite a lot about, but also physical wellness as well.

1266
01:13:42,220 --> 01:13:54,460
What is it that you attribute to being so fit and be able to ride and be able to to rope and cowboy, you know, as when you're not a young man anymore?

1267
01:13:54,460 --> 01:14:11,620
Well, you know, it's I think it's a discipline, it's a self discipline that I've acquired through working with the horses that that I think that discipline just becomes how you live.

1268
01:14:11,620 --> 01:14:14,780
I think it just kind of takes takes your life over here.

1269
01:14:14,780 --> 01:14:28,700
You're not going to be a certain way when you work with horses and then, you know, worthless piece of junk when your when horses aren't present, you know, it's the the change just happens in you as a person.

1270
01:14:28,700 --> 01:14:39,340
And then I've always been I've I've always recognized the value of being being disciplined in yourself.

1271
01:14:39,340 --> 01:14:44,540
And it's odd that people will talk about they want their horses to be disciplined and obedient.

1272
01:14:44,540 --> 01:14:49,540
OK, I get that. But it has to come from the human first.

1273
01:14:49,540 --> 01:14:58,940
Yeah, so so not to demonize people that struggle with their weight, but if they're they don't have discipline in their eating, their exercise.

1274
01:14:58,940 --> 01:15:03,780
And again, there's probably going to be some carryover in how they are as a horse person.

1275
01:15:03,780 --> 01:15:16,220
Oh, absolutely. And, you know, everybody knows there are different reasons for people to have problems with eating too much.

1276
01:15:16,220 --> 01:15:19,300
Sometimes it's just they're not physical. They're lazy.

1277
01:15:19,300 --> 01:15:23,340
They're just flat, lazy. And it doesn't take a whole lot.

1278
01:15:23,340 --> 01:15:29,740
If you're living a real sedentary life, it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of calories to keep you alive.

1279
01:15:29,740 --> 01:15:35,100
And most of the time they take in about a hundred times more than what they need.

1280
01:15:35,100 --> 01:15:43,340
That's that's part of it. But for some people, it's it's a mental illness, too, I think.

1281
01:15:43,340 --> 01:15:47,100
It's there. It's it starts in your brain. That's where it happens.

1282
01:15:47,100 --> 01:15:51,540
And, you know, some people say, well, he can't help it or she can't help it.

1283
01:15:51,540 --> 01:15:55,540
Well, I'm not Pollyanna about that either, because you know what?

1284
01:15:55,540 --> 01:16:06,220
I'm a I'm a real World War Two buff. I watch all the documentaries on World War Two and just love all the stories and the history of it.

1285
01:16:06,220 --> 01:16:12,860
And of all the film clips I've seen in photographs, I've never seen a fat POW.

1286
01:16:12,860 --> 01:16:17,820
That's very true. I mean, in those era, not even a fat soldier. You think about it.

1287
01:16:17,820 --> 01:16:22,420
Right. They were thin. All right. Absolutely. Even the soldiers.

1288
01:16:22,420 --> 01:16:30,860
So, you know, I just think the discipline thing and and that could be something that goes right back again to the parenting.

1289
01:16:30,860 --> 01:16:36,740
And if you don't believe me, go to Wal-Mart and start looking up and down the aisles and look at the parents.

1290
01:16:36,740 --> 01:16:40,620
Yeah. And then you look at how they look at how they're shopping.

1291
01:16:40,620 --> 01:16:47,420
They want their kids to. It's like an alcoholic trying to get their kid to drink with them.

1292
01:16:47,420 --> 01:16:51,140
So true. I had a dear friend. I had a dear friend in South Carolina.

1293
01:16:51,140 --> 01:16:55,460
I met him out west here cowboying, but he was from South Carolina.

1294
01:16:55,460 --> 01:17:00,420
His mother was a horrible alcoholic. His dad, who knows where the hell he went.

1295
01:17:00,420 --> 01:17:07,580
And he came out west and was kind of doing pretty well as a cowboy and drank a little, but not a problem.

1296
01:17:07,580 --> 01:17:17,180
And he eventually moved back home to South Carolina and his mother turned him into a full fledged alcoholic because she wanted to drink and partner.

1297
01:17:17,180 --> 01:17:23,500
And she was a very domineering woman psychologically with her son.

1298
01:17:23,500 --> 01:17:30,140
And he actually hosted some of my clinics, early ones in South Carolina, North Carolina.

1299
01:17:30,140 --> 01:17:39,940
And I got a phone call one night that he was found in a ditch that.

1300
01:17:39,940 --> 01:17:43,940
Overdosed on alcohol. And his mother killed him.

1301
01:17:43,940 --> 01:17:51,860
She lived another 10 years and it's terrible to say it, but it would have been a blessing if she had died 20 years before.

1302
01:17:51,860 --> 01:17:57,180
He'd still be around today. And, you know, just that kind of stuff.

1303
01:17:57,180 --> 01:18:00,340
And it goes back to the parenting thing again. Yeah.

1304
01:18:00,340 --> 01:18:06,620
And even with I talk about as a few times on the show, the schools like don't get me wrong.

1305
01:18:06,620 --> 01:18:09,700
The parents have to be parents first. And I totally understand that.

1306
01:18:09,700 --> 01:18:16,940
And I try and do my part in my son's lives. But, you know, when we're feeding these children,

1307
01:18:16,940 --> 01:18:21,340
the process crap that they have in the schools now, you know, what is that telling them?

1308
01:18:21,340 --> 01:18:24,620
Like, hey, this is normal. And, you know, we don't want to fat shame.

1309
01:18:24,620 --> 01:18:29,180
So it's OK if you're getting obese at the age of 12. And that's not the way it should be.

1310
01:18:29,180 --> 01:18:35,420
We should be giving our kids the best food. We should teach them how to cook and letting them already understand

1311
01:18:35,420 --> 01:18:40,100
the health problems that come with obesity and some of these other areas.

1312
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:47,140
You know, and it's something that, you know, people are so oversensitive about being politically incorrect.

1313
01:18:47,140 --> 01:18:59,100
And it doesn't mean that that you don't love people who are overweight or someone who is handicapped in some way.

1314
01:18:59,100 --> 01:19:06,540
Being morbidly obese, you're just as handicapped as you would be if you were born without a leg.

1315
01:19:06,540 --> 01:19:14,780
It is a handicap, but some of it is created by bad choices, just like what you said in the schools,

1316
01:19:14,780 --> 01:19:20,740
what they're feeding kids and telling kids it's all right to put into their body.

1317
01:19:20,740 --> 01:19:29,340
I know this, that the stereotypes that go along with someone who is overweight and been overweight their whole life,

1318
01:19:29,340 --> 01:19:32,420
I'm not saying it's right. It's not right.

1319
01:19:32,420 --> 01:19:42,220
But if you're looking at a thin, fit, energetic person and then you're looking at someone who is overweight,

1320
01:19:42,220 --> 01:19:45,860
you know which one you're going to hire.

1321
01:19:45,860 --> 01:19:51,500
You know which one you're going to hire because there are stereotypes that go along with someone who has a weight problem,

1322
01:19:51,500 --> 01:19:54,740
that they're slothful, they're not motivated, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1323
01:19:54,740 --> 01:19:58,580
Yet they might be way more qualified than the thin person.

1324
01:19:58,580 --> 01:20:04,260
So just given that, that that's reality, whether you like it or not, that's reality.

1325
01:20:04,260 --> 01:20:07,180
Why would you handicap your child?

1326
01:20:07,180 --> 01:20:14,580
So he's going to be the last one out of the blocks in this race of life and he's going to lose.

1327
01:20:14,580 --> 01:20:18,220
Because you didn't even know how to feed your child.

1328
01:20:18,220 --> 01:20:22,700
Yeah. And then it sounds like it's coming from a cruel place, but it's the complete opposite.

1329
01:20:22,700 --> 01:20:25,020
It's the kindness and compassion.

1330
01:20:25,020 --> 01:20:29,860
You know what you can do with a vibrant body.

1331
01:20:29,860 --> 01:20:34,660
You know, I mean, you can ride, you can climb, you can surf, you can swim, you can do all these amazing things.

1332
01:20:34,660 --> 01:20:41,180
So it's, you know, wanting a nation, a world to be nourished properly,

1333
01:20:41,180 --> 01:20:47,140
for it to come naturally from farms where animals are raised holistically and not cruelly.

1334
01:20:47,140 --> 01:20:50,780
And men and women are around about the right way.

1335
01:20:50,780 --> 01:20:55,660
And no one needs to walk around with a six pack or Arnold Schwarzenegger's physique,

1336
01:20:55,660 --> 01:20:58,260
but the ability to use the body the way it was given.

1337
01:20:58,260 --> 01:21:02,460
And it's kind of been turned around where you can't say that because that's cruel.

1338
01:21:02,460 --> 01:21:10,340
It's like, no, what's cruel is that these people are being lied to about all these medications and these foods that are killing them.

1339
01:21:10,340 --> 01:21:17,580
And the most cruel thing you can do is is create an environment where someone's children are actually going to die before they do,

1340
01:21:17,580 --> 01:21:25,020
because that's for the first time we've actually got a point where our kids are dying younger than their parents, which is unacceptable.

1341
01:21:25,020 --> 01:21:28,060
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely right.

1342
01:21:28,060 --> 01:21:33,820
But sometimes you have to be brutally honest about the cause and effect of things.

1343
01:21:33,820 --> 01:21:44,300
And people consider you to be, if you are honest in that, that they consider you to lack compassion or that you that you really don't care.

1344
01:21:44,300 --> 01:21:48,460
And I think it's quite the opposite, to be honest with you.

1345
01:21:48,460 --> 01:21:54,100
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. Well, I want to just cover one more topic and then go to some closing questions so I can let you go.

1346
01:21:54,100 --> 01:21:58,100
So I'm sure you're exhausted from your journey, but traveling.

1347
01:21:58,100 --> 01:22:11,180
So you have circumnavigated the globe probably scores of times and you've done clinics in the Middle East and the Australia region and Europe.

1348
01:22:11,180 --> 01:22:14,740
What are some of your favorite places and also in those journeys,

1349
01:22:14,740 --> 01:22:30,260
were there any areas where you found that there was a greater natural understanding of the way you do horsemanship, you know, innately, for some reason in that culture?

1350
01:22:30,260 --> 01:22:38,620
Well, you know, a lot of times people will ask me, what's my favorite place to go?

1351
01:22:38,620 --> 01:22:48,060
And honestly, I guess it's home because I've spent way less time than anywhere else.

1352
01:22:48,060 --> 01:22:52,700
But it's not really the I've been traveling so much and for so long.

1353
01:22:52,700 --> 01:23:07,900
Every place is kind of unique. What makes me enjoy being at a certain place is really the the really dear people that I've gotten to be friends with over the last almost four decades.

1354
01:23:07,900 --> 01:23:17,740
I just told some people last fall at a place where I was, I said, listen, to be honest with you, I've seen about all of your state.

1355
01:23:17,740 --> 01:23:24,220
I need to see and I live in a lot more desirable place than you guys do, but you're here.

1356
01:23:24,220 --> 01:23:29,300
And I said, the only reason I come back is because I really love spending time with you guys.

1357
01:23:29,300 --> 01:23:32,140
I said, because I'm not going back for the scenery anymore.

1358
01:23:32,140 --> 01:23:37,740
I've seen it all. And that's that's what it is from one week to the next.

1359
01:23:37,740 --> 01:23:45,500
You know, I'm going to Australia tomorrow and it's one hundred and five there and the whole place is burning up.

1360
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:49,740
And would I rather be home? Yeah, I would.

1361
01:23:49,740 --> 01:24:00,220
But I'm going to see some people that are really dear friends and that are really like minded people that are their whole year kind of revolves around.

1362
01:24:00,220 --> 01:24:06,380
Riding with me and Tamworth, Australia, you know, so with that comes quite a bit of responsibility.

1363
01:24:06,380 --> 01:24:17,740
But as far as far as a place to where it's just like an anomaly, a unique culture.

1364
01:24:17,740 --> 01:24:21,500
In a way, I guess this should be reassuring.

1365
01:24:21,500 --> 01:24:25,660
There really isn't one in that.

1366
01:24:25,660 --> 01:24:32,380
People are pretty much the same all over and they'd probably get along a hell of a lot better if they all understood that about each other.

1367
01:24:32,380 --> 01:24:34,780
They're not that different.

1368
01:24:34,780 --> 01:24:44,940
You know, I guess if you took organized religion out of it, there'd be quite a few million people still here that that aren't.

1369
01:24:44,940 --> 01:24:48,220
I mean, the reasons for people killing each other.

1370
01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:53,220
And it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

1371
01:24:53,220 --> 01:24:57,540
No, I couldn't agree more. I absolutely couldn't agree more.

1372
01:24:57,540 --> 01:24:59,860
Well, where I live is Ocala.

1373
01:24:59,860 --> 01:25:03,780
And when you look at the sign for Ocala, it says horse capital of the world.

1374
01:25:03,780 --> 01:25:13,420
So my question to the city of Ocala is why Brannerman hasn't been to the horse capital of the world in the last 36 years?

1375
01:25:13,420 --> 01:25:16,980
Well, I was in Wellborn, which is not very far from there.

1376
01:25:16,980 --> 01:25:18,740
Right. A few years ago.

1377
01:25:18,740 --> 01:25:20,660
Yeah, I was there.

1378
01:25:20,660 --> 01:25:25,300
Just I've just there's only so many places I can go a year.

1379
01:25:25,300 --> 01:25:29,860
I'm just in a lot of the places that I'm still going to.

1380
01:25:29,860 --> 01:25:33,300
I have a loyalty to them because they're the ones that brought me to the dance.

1381
01:25:33,300 --> 01:25:43,140
So until somebody says, well, I don't want to do a clinic anymore, put one on for you, then I don't really have a an open date to do it.

1382
01:25:43,140 --> 01:25:47,860
And I've been doing 40 clinics a year for a long time.

1383
01:25:47,860 --> 01:25:55,380
But just a little sidebar, there are a few other places that call themselves the horse capital of the world, too.

1384
01:25:55,380 --> 01:25:57,620
Yeah, I was thinking that because I'm from England.

1385
01:25:57,620 --> 01:26:00,780
I know we had a shitload of horses there, too.

1386
01:26:00,780 --> 01:26:04,900
So we go to Lexington and they'll tell you the same thing.

1387
01:26:04,900 --> 01:26:07,060
They have a sign horse capital of the world.

1388
01:26:07,060 --> 01:26:10,140
Well, we're greedy. We're also lightning cap to the world.

1389
01:26:10,140 --> 01:26:16,300
So I guess we have all the horses and lightning, which sounds dangerous.

1390
01:26:16,300 --> 01:26:18,300
But that is a beautiful area of Ocala.

1391
01:26:18,300 --> 01:26:20,860
And gosh, there are a lot of horses there.

1392
01:26:20,860 --> 01:26:23,860
Yes, that's really it's a neat place.

1393
01:26:23,860 --> 01:26:25,420
And I may get there one day.

1394
01:26:25,420 --> 01:26:27,220
It'd be a good place to come and do a clinic.

1395
01:26:27,220 --> 01:26:34,940
And I'm sure there'd be plenty of people show up because I've sure had a lot of people ask me to come over the years and just haven't had an open date.

1396
01:26:34,940 --> 01:26:36,780
But I'll get there eventually.

1397
01:26:36,780 --> 01:26:38,820
Good Lord, will. And if I live long enough.

1398
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:41,180
Yeah. Well, they just built or a building.

1399
01:26:41,180 --> 01:26:50,180
It's not done yet. Some ridiculously huge horse arena venue complex, whatever you want to call it.

1400
01:26:50,180 --> 01:26:53,060
I mean, hundreds of thousands of square feet.

1401
01:26:53,060 --> 01:27:01,500
So it's it kind of when the construction happened, some of the horse farms obviously sold and they put communities on.

1402
01:27:01,500 --> 01:27:05,140
I'm sitting on one right now. So I'm not going to be a hypocrite about that.

1403
01:27:05,140 --> 01:27:11,140
But I think they're really trying to pull the horse community back to our town.

1404
01:27:11,140 --> 01:27:13,900
So, you know, you might find yourself through through that.

1405
01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:17,460
We'll see. But I mean, you always have somewhere to stay if you ever come here.

1406
01:27:17,460 --> 01:27:19,980
I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you.

1407
01:27:19,980 --> 01:27:24,420
All right. Well, then let's go to some closing questions so I can let you go.

1408
01:27:24,420 --> 01:27:26,580
So firstly, tell me about your books.

1409
01:27:26,580 --> 01:27:31,860
And I want to also pick your brains about other people's books that you love.

1410
01:27:31,860 --> 01:27:42,140
Well, the you know, the the very first book that I ever wrote was was really more of an instructional book just called Groundwork, the first impression.

1411
01:27:42,140 --> 01:27:46,980
And it was my first attempt at writing.

1412
01:27:46,980 --> 01:27:57,220
And it really just was a sort of a study aid for people that have been to my clinics that have been learning this groundwork that I talk about so much.

1413
01:27:57,220 --> 01:28:06,660
And I actually when I sat down to write the book, what inspired it was there was a really cool book called The Little Red Book on Tennis.

1414
01:28:06,660 --> 01:28:12,980
And it was short, to the point, very simple, but really was a phenomenon at one time.

1415
01:28:12,980 --> 01:28:16,460
And so that's why my book is read.

1416
01:28:16,460 --> 01:28:25,820
Interesting. But when I sat down to write it, and this has been twenty five years ago, maybe more,

1417
01:28:25,820 --> 01:28:29,660
I wrote it in three hours. Really? And I never rewrote.

1418
01:28:29,660 --> 01:28:34,620
I had someone go over it for spelling and punctuation. And that is it.

1419
01:28:34,620 --> 01:28:41,980
I wrote one one draft and twenty five years later, I wouldn't change it.

1420
01:28:41,980 --> 01:28:50,460
I could maybe add a couple of chapters and stuff that I've that I've maybe learned in the last twenty five years that I wouldn't change a thing.

1421
01:28:50,460 --> 01:29:08,460
So after that, I got to thinking about some of the stories that I've told over the years in the clinics about horses and people and different things that stories that moved me and even some stories that were.

1422
01:29:08,460 --> 01:29:16,300
They were kind of hard for me to tell because of my feelings I have for the horses that.

1423
01:29:16,300 --> 01:29:27,420
I was in a place called Mabane, North Carolina, and at that time, my wife was with me and a fellow named Kip, who was working for me.

1424
01:29:27,420 --> 01:29:35,300
And we were at this bed and breakfast out in this beautiful meadow and kind of in the middle of nowhere, if there's such a place.

1425
01:29:35,300 --> 01:29:44,340
And my wife was getting all dressed up and they were going to head into town and go shopping or something.

1426
01:29:44,340 --> 01:29:50,340
And she said, what are you what are you doing? Why aren't you getting ready? I said, oh, I'm not going to go.

1427
01:29:50,340 --> 01:29:55,700
You guys go. I got some I want to work on. And she said.

1428
01:29:55,700 --> 01:30:01,860
What would that be? I said, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to start writing a book.

1429
01:30:01,860 --> 01:30:08,860
And she said about what I said, well, it's going to be part autobiographical,

1430
01:30:08,860 --> 01:30:20,380
and then I'm going to sort of change gears about midway and move into stories about horses and people that I think have a really interesting lesson to them, life lesson to them.

1431
01:30:20,380 --> 01:30:36,900
And I want it to be a book that is a book of encouragement to people who may be very well living at a really dark place that they understand that sometimes you make the right choices, you can make a happy ending out of it.

1432
01:30:36,900 --> 01:30:45,700
So I said, that's sort of my goals on this book. And of course, Mary said, well, you don't know how to write a book.

1433
01:30:45,700 --> 01:30:51,740
You're not an author. And I said, yeah, but I'm going to be in a few hours.

1434
01:30:51,740 --> 01:30:56,180
And she said, well, how are you going to get it published? I said, I'm just going to tell you this.

1435
01:30:56,180 --> 01:31:02,420
This is going to be a good book. And I will tell you this. The first publisher I take it to will publish my book.

1436
01:31:02,420 --> 01:31:06,460
She said, do you know how many people write books that can get them published?

1437
01:31:06,460 --> 01:31:13,100
I said, yeah, but that was them, Mary. And she just shook her head.

1438
01:31:13,100 --> 01:31:21,140
Well, I was wrong. It was the second publisher that I took it to that that published my book.

1439
01:31:21,140 --> 01:31:28,780
The first one was St. Martin's Press. And I'll bet you years later, they were thinking, why did we pass on that book?

1440
01:31:28,780 --> 01:31:37,580
Because my and that book was The Far Away Horses. It was the first serious book that I wrote.

1441
01:31:37,580 --> 01:31:45,220
And it basically it was sort of a small niche publisher, never put much money into it at the time.

1442
01:31:45,220 --> 01:31:53,260
It was Globe Pequot. And they would take people that were kind of specialized in their field.

1443
01:31:53,260 --> 01:31:59,340
It could be a fly fisherman or it could be, I don't know, a tennis player or something.

1444
01:31:59,340 --> 01:32:03,580
And they would the person already had a bit of a name and a reputation.

1445
01:32:03,580 --> 01:32:11,620
So they knew there was a built in audience and they would put basically no money into the book and they would print it.

1446
01:32:11,620 --> 01:32:20,340
And then all the people that recognized the person's name would buy a book and they make a quick million dollars on the book and give the author nothing.

1447
01:32:20,340 --> 01:32:24,180
And they move on to the next guy. There's lots of publishers work like that.

1448
01:32:24,180 --> 01:32:26,820
Sounds like a hell of a deal.

1449
01:32:26,820 --> 01:32:38,220
Yeah. So so anyway, they never put any marketing or or anything behind the book because that just would lower their profits.

1450
01:32:38,220 --> 01:32:42,060
And now it's sold over 200,000 copies.

1451
01:32:42,060 --> 01:32:49,940
It's you know, and of course, the the the milestone is 100,000 copies makes it a bestseller.

1452
01:32:49,940 --> 01:32:59,620
And since in the last few years, I get contacted fairly often from them that they wonder if I have another book in me.

1453
01:32:59,620 --> 01:33:03,500
Oh, brilliant. Well, you got a lot more stories.

1454
01:33:03,500 --> 01:33:05,700
So you had that and then you had the belief as well.

1455
01:33:05,700 --> 01:33:08,300
What made you write Belief? Yeah. Yeah.

1456
01:33:08,300 --> 01:33:19,220
I wrote Belief after that. And then I wrote a couple other, you know, more specialized books on on ranch roping and handling livestock

1457
01:33:19,220 --> 01:33:23,540
and things like that that would be, you know, the demographics pretty small for that.

1458
01:33:23,540 --> 01:33:31,260
But it was something I wanted to do to just kind of have it on record, have it be somebody behind someday.

1459
01:33:31,260 --> 01:33:37,700
Brilliant. Well, faraway horses, I've got I'm going on a cruise with my family in about 10 days.

1460
01:33:37,700 --> 01:33:42,220
We bought it last year and we waited a year to actually pay for it.

1461
01:33:42,220 --> 01:33:45,860
But we're we're leaving in a couple of weeks and that's one of the ones I'm taking with me.

1462
01:33:45,860 --> 01:33:50,060
So I can't wait to read that. Oh, good.

1463
01:33:50,060 --> 01:33:55,180
Yeah, that's my. I haven't quite finished the faraway horses project yet.

1464
01:33:55,180 --> 01:34:09,180
I've I've wanted for years to have it end up a feature film or maybe a cable film because and and you tell me after you read it.

1465
01:34:09,180 --> 01:34:16,500
But it's a it's a story that I I don't feel like I've told the whole story until I do a film on it.

1466
01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:19,740
And and we even have a script.

1467
01:34:19,740 --> 01:34:28,060
I've finished the script and just kind of wait around for the right person to to help us do the film.

1468
01:34:28,060 --> 01:34:31,380
And I'm still waiting, but I'm a patient man.

1469
01:34:31,380 --> 01:34:37,980
It'll happen eventually. But it's it's hard to compete with, you know, Marvel characters and

1470
01:34:37,980 --> 01:34:42,420
Spider-Man 65. Yeah.

1471
01:34:42,420 --> 01:34:46,500
But there are still people out there that that like a good story.

1472
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:50,100
Yeah, but I know we were talking about at the beginning of the interview, actually, when I went back.

1473
01:34:50,100 --> 01:34:52,780
So for everyone listening, we split this into two.

1474
01:34:52,780 --> 01:34:59,340
This is over the phone now. But, yeah, when we were and I agree, 100 percent like you get to my age,

1475
01:34:59,340 --> 01:35:03,260
you know, middle middle age, the story's been told over and over again.

1476
01:35:03,260 --> 01:35:06,660
They literally took my 80s movies and remade the same damn movie.

1477
01:35:06,660 --> 01:35:12,620
So I crave, you know, original story, which is what's so amazing about this podcast medium,

1478
01:35:12,620 --> 01:35:14,980
is you get to hear these people and their stories.

1479
01:35:14,980 --> 01:35:20,940
But I know some of the amazing people that we mentioned in the beginning that that are looking forward to hearing this episode.

1480
01:35:20,940 --> 01:35:25,380
Hopefully, some of them are connected and maybe that will, you know, help push it forward.

1481
01:35:25,380 --> 01:35:29,180
But you never know. No, you never know. Exactly.

1482
01:35:29,180 --> 01:35:32,300
All right. Well, that's that's your book. So what about other people's books?

1483
01:35:32,300 --> 01:35:39,580
Are any books apart from the little red book on tennis that that you've loved and recommended to other people?

1484
01:35:39,580 --> 01:35:49,220
Well, there was one that Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt recommended to me that sort of surprised me.

1485
01:35:49,220 --> 01:35:53,220
I read it and enjoyed it. It was.

1486
01:35:53,220 --> 01:35:57,060
It was called Kinship with All Life.

1487
01:35:57,060 --> 01:36:06,700
And it was written by J. Alan Boone. And it's not a not a huge book, but a really thought provoking book.

1488
01:36:06,700 --> 01:36:14,740
And one also that I that I read that, you know, it's a bit of a dry read.

1489
01:36:14,740 --> 01:36:22,980
But if you're really looking at self-improvement, it really it did something for me.

1490
01:36:22,980 --> 01:36:25,700
And it's called Psycho Cybernetics.

1491
01:36:25,700 --> 01:36:29,300
I don't know if you've ever heard of it. No, I haven't, actually.

1492
01:36:29,300 --> 01:36:34,420
But it's a it's it's an it's an amazing book.

1493
01:36:34,420 --> 01:36:39,180
It really helps you understand the human mind.

1494
01:36:39,180 --> 01:36:42,620
And in ways that you just maybe never thought of it before.

1495
01:36:42,620 --> 01:36:51,940
And and honestly, based on our conversation and your questions, you would be intrigued by that book, Psycho Cybernetics.

1496
01:36:51,940 --> 01:36:53,780
Excellent. Well, I have to get that, too.

1497
01:36:53,780 --> 01:36:56,300
That's not going on the cruise with me. I've got enough books to read as it is.

1498
01:36:56,300 --> 01:36:59,140
But but I'll get it for for down the road.

1499
01:36:59,140 --> 01:37:01,500
So thank you. I've never had either of those two recommended.

1500
01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:04,260
So that's two more to add to the list. All right.

1501
01:37:04,260 --> 01:37:11,860
So then on the lighter side, I'm probably going to spend my day tomorrow reading reading a Mitch Rapp novel.

1502
01:37:11,860 --> 01:37:15,420
Mitch Rapp. Is that the author or the character?

1503
01:37:15,420 --> 01:37:17,100
It's the character in it.

1504
01:37:17,100 --> 01:37:23,460
The lead child in Vince Bland, they do the spy novels and stuff.

1505
01:37:23,460 --> 01:37:27,860
OK, brilliant. I kind of enjoy escaping to that sometimes.

1506
01:37:27,860 --> 01:37:32,100
Excellent. Well, yeah, that's the thing. You got to you got to have the fiction thrown in, too.

1507
01:37:32,100 --> 01:37:34,820
Well, speaking of fiction, are there any any movies that you love?

1508
01:37:34,820 --> 01:37:39,140
I want to talk about documentaries in a moment with regular movies.

1509
01:37:39,140 --> 01:37:44,940
Oh, you know. I like to laugh.

1510
01:37:44,940 --> 01:37:53,860
I like good movies that that there'd be movies that you probably wouldn't expect that I would like.

1511
01:37:53,860 --> 01:37:56,900
Now, going back the way as you'd be in British, you'll appreciate this.

1512
01:37:56,900 --> 01:37:59,260
A Fish Called Wanda was one of my favorites.

1513
01:37:59,260 --> 01:38:03,620
Yeah, the Monty Python guys.

1514
01:38:03,620 --> 01:38:10,260
Yeah. And the Big Lebowski, I think that pretty much connects with about everybody.

1515
01:38:10,260 --> 01:38:12,940
Yeah. My wife just rolls her eyes.

1516
01:38:12,940 --> 01:38:15,220
She rolls her eyes. She is not amused by it.

1517
01:38:15,220 --> 01:38:21,780
I just know. I said, you know, you you just you just simply don't understand that humor, Marriott.

1518
01:38:21,780 --> 01:38:23,820
Oh, we'll have to watch it together.

1519
01:38:23,820 --> 01:38:26,260
And she's like, not a chance.

1520
01:38:26,260 --> 01:38:30,460
Did you ever see Fargo? The Coen brothers did. Fargo.

1521
01:38:30,460 --> 01:38:33,740
I saw that. Yeah. That was a great film, too.

1522
01:38:33,740 --> 01:38:40,620
And, you know, there was a movie a few years ago and the title of it evades me right now.

1523
01:38:40,620 --> 01:38:46,420
But it's something something lions and Robert DeVall did it.

1524
01:38:46,420 --> 01:38:50,620
And who was the other guy that starred in it?

1525
01:38:50,620 --> 01:38:54,620
And they were a couple of old bachelors that lived together in farm country,

1526
01:38:54,620 --> 01:39:04,780
and they had been very famous agents and adventurers and military heroes, secondhand lions.

1527
01:39:04,780 --> 01:39:06,620
That's the name of it. I saw that.

1528
01:39:06,620 --> 01:39:08,700
It's a great film.

1529
01:39:08,700 --> 01:39:13,340
Oh, that is just that was just one of my favorites.

1530
01:39:13,340 --> 01:39:14,740
What a neat, neat film.

1531
01:39:14,740 --> 01:39:17,100
Was that Michael Caine was the other one? Is that right?

1532
01:39:17,100 --> 01:39:19,860
Michael Caine. Yes. Yeah.

1533
01:39:19,860 --> 01:39:21,660
You got it. Excellent.

1534
01:39:21,660 --> 01:39:24,140
All right. Well, you mentioned World War Two documentary.

1535
01:39:24,140 --> 01:39:25,180
Excuse me. Documentaries.

1536
01:39:25,180 --> 01:39:28,180
Did you ever see Band of Brothers when it was on?

1537
01:39:28,180 --> 01:39:30,500
I did and loved it. Yes.

1538
01:39:30,500 --> 01:39:35,260
So any other documentaries that you could recommend?

1539
01:39:35,260 --> 01:39:39,460
Um, there's some kind of on the spot.

1540
01:39:39,460 --> 01:39:43,860
So actually, I'm going to draw a blank on that.

1541
01:39:43,860 --> 01:39:59,260
But I do, you know, I do enjoy documentaries that are but I have to say the documentaries that I enjoy mostly are the ones that are not politically motivated.

1542
01:39:59,260 --> 01:40:06,260
Yeah. Documentaries that just tell you a story that you wouldn't have otherwise heard in the mainstream.

1543
01:40:06,260 --> 01:40:09,660
Those are the kind of documentaries I'm more drawn to.

1544
01:40:09,660 --> 01:40:17,140
I'm not I'm I'm a little bored with the documentaries being just a political infomercial for whomever is putting it out.

1545
01:40:17,140 --> 01:40:20,260
Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant.

1546
01:40:20,260 --> 01:40:22,900
Actually, have you seen the Ken Burns war ones?

1547
01:40:22,900 --> 01:40:25,820
I'm watching the Vietnam one at the moment. It was amazing.

1548
01:40:25,820 --> 01:40:29,780
I mean, again, it doesn't seem to sway in any particular side.

1549
01:40:29,780 --> 01:40:34,980
It's just saying how it is. But the history of that conflict is fascinating.

1550
01:40:34,980 --> 01:40:40,900
I just started the Vietnam one and my wife has seen it and she said it is amazing.

1551
01:40:40,900 --> 01:40:43,020
Yeah, I'm on I just finished episode one.

1552
01:40:43,020 --> 01:40:47,060
So we're probably right there at the same place.

1553
01:40:47,060 --> 01:40:49,100
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant.

1554
01:40:49,100 --> 01:40:55,780
All right. So then next question, is there a person that you recommend to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to?

1555
01:40:55,780 --> 01:41:03,260
The first responders, military and emergency medicine personnel of the world.

1556
01:41:03,260 --> 01:41:07,380
Well, if you could get him.

1557
01:41:07,380 --> 01:41:13,620
Tom Brokaw is a really unique man.

1558
01:41:13,620 --> 01:41:21,340
And he was the kind of the head man at NBC for years and years.

1559
01:41:21,340 --> 01:41:26,540
Tom Brokaw would be a very interesting person to talk to.

1560
01:41:26,540 --> 01:41:34,740
Just because of his years and years in the news business, he is a he's a really neat, neat guy.

1561
01:41:34,740 --> 01:41:37,460
Did you ever meet him?

1562
01:41:37,460 --> 01:41:42,820
Yeah, I did clinics at his ranch in Montana for many years, know his whole family.

1563
01:41:42,820 --> 01:41:45,500
Oh, brilliant. Good people.

1564
01:41:45,500 --> 01:41:47,900
Excellent. All right. Well, yeah, I'm another great person.

1565
01:41:47,900 --> 01:41:53,220
There's another journalist, Lisa Ling, who's one of the the modern ones now.

1566
01:41:53,220 --> 01:41:55,500
I heard an interview with her with Tim Ferriss.

1567
01:41:55,500 --> 01:41:59,340
She's another person I would love to get on because all her journalism, again,

1568
01:41:59,340 --> 01:42:04,860
seems to come from a kind of kindness and compassion route as well.

1569
01:42:04,860 --> 01:42:09,980
So another person I'd love to get on. Yeah, yeah, you bet.

1570
01:42:09,980 --> 01:42:17,500
All right. So the very last question before we make sure everyone knows where they can find the books and your clinics and reach out to you.

1571
01:42:17,500 --> 01:42:23,460
Aside from writing, if there's anything else, what do you do to decompress?

1572
01:42:23,460 --> 01:42:27,460
I play golf. I love playing golf.

1573
01:42:27,460 --> 01:42:36,700
I started that about well, I started playing golf at 50, which turns out you probably should start it sooner.

1574
01:42:36,700 --> 01:42:45,340
But I play golf everywhere I go, and I'm just nuts for it because it's it's a really hard game.

1575
01:42:45,340 --> 01:42:48,180
I always loved basketball. I was always passionate about that.

1576
01:42:48,180 --> 01:42:51,140
But it's not a game you can play when you travel.

1577
01:42:51,140 --> 01:42:56,900
But golf is. And gosh, I'm just I'm just nuts about the game.

1578
01:42:56,900 --> 01:42:58,300
Now, what is it about golf?

1579
01:42:58,300 --> 01:43:00,420
Because I know there's a couple of other people on the show.

1580
01:43:00,420 --> 01:43:06,660
And to them, they're I think I want to say they're soldiers or athletes or something where,

1581
01:43:06,660 --> 01:43:09,620
you know, there's kind of organized chaos in their world.

1582
01:43:09,620 --> 01:43:13,220
So the golf for them was just there's this ball.

1583
01:43:13,220 --> 01:43:16,500
I have to hit it a certain way and get it into this this area.

1584
01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:21,420
And this the simplicity and the the being present element that was it for them.

1585
01:43:21,420 --> 01:43:24,620
What what's it about?

1586
01:43:24,620 --> 01:43:31,740
It, you know, I guess a little bit similar to fly fishing, which I'm a passionate fly fisherman, too.

1587
01:43:31,740 --> 01:43:39,780
But it's a it's kind of a zen like thing that you have to everything else in your world has to disappear

1588
01:43:39,780 --> 01:43:45,260
for a few hours if you plan on being a good golfer, you have to.

1589
01:43:45,260 --> 01:43:50,060
You have to just put everything else aside and take a mental vacation from everything.

1590
01:43:50,060 --> 01:43:56,980
But hitting that damn ball and and it's it really is a mental vacation for me.

1591
01:43:56,980 --> 01:44:01,420
And yet I I don't dabble at it. I don't dabble at anything.

1592
01:44:01,420 --> 01:44:04,180
Everything I do, I try to be good at it.

1593
01:44:04,180 --> 01:44:07,860
So, you know, I I work at that when I'm golfing.

1594
01:44:07,860 --> 01:44:11,460
I am working at golfing and being a good golfer.

1595
01:44:11,460 --> 01:44:15,260
And, you know, now I'm going to be 58 next month.

1596
01:44:15,260 --> 01:44:21,020
And and I'm a five handicap, so I can play.

1597
01:44:21,020 --> 01:44:25,700
I'm no Tiger Woods, but for an old guy that started at 50, I can play.

1598
01:44:25,700 --> 01:44:32,460
Brilliant. Now, what elements of the horsemanship do you bring to your golf game?

1599
01:44:32,460 --> 01:44:36,420
Feel. Physical feel.

1600
01:44:36,420 --> 01:44:39,260
There it's not just a mental thing.

1601
01:44:39,260 --> 01:44:45,220
It's also its coordination, its timing, its balance.

1602
01:44:45,220 --> 01:44:50,100
The physical, the physical attributes that would make you a good hand with horses

1603
01:44:50,100 --> 01:44:59,100
certainly apply to playing golf and the and after you read Psycho Cybernetics,

1604
01:44:59,100 --> 01:45:01,500
you'll get that, too,

1605
01:45:01,500 --> 01:45:07,460
because it's visualizing what you want to have happen and make sure that happens.

1606
01:45:07,460 --> 01:45:08,540
Excellent. All right.

1607
01:45:08,540 --> 01:45:11,540
Well, then the very last question, if you want to reach out to you,

1608
01:45:11,540 --> 01:45:16,460
want to find all your work, what's the best place to go to online?

1609
01:45:16,460 --> 01:45:19,540
Well, Brandemond.com would be the best bet.

1610
01:45:19,540 --> 01:45:24,380
That's my website, and it kind of steers you in in the right direction.

1611
01:45:24,380 --> 01:45:29,060
And something that is going to be coming up in 2020,

1612
01:45:29,060 --> 01:45:35,660
late in 2020 is is and I want to I'm not very technical.

1613
01:45:35,660 --> 01:45:40,460
I'll call it an app or a platform that's going to be launched called Three Rain,

1614
01:45:40,460 --> 01:45:44,500
spelled like a bridal rain, R E I M.

1615
01:45:44,500 --> 01:45:54,020
And this three rain is going to open up a a new thing for me in terms of education.

1616
01:45:54,020 --> 01:45:58,500
It's going to make it possible for people to go to that app

1617
01:45:58,500 --> 01:46:04,700
and download to their phone little vignettes of me five minutes,

1618
01:46:04,700 --> 01:46:11,860
10 minutes and full length videos if they want to where you don't have to buy DVDs

1619
01:46:11,860 --> 01:46:14,460
anymore and wait for them to show up in the mail.

1620
01:46:14,460 --> 01:46:17,900
It's going to make the education part of it.

1621
01:46:17,900 --> 01:46:21,260
Just it's going to revolutionize it for me.

1622
01:46:21,260 --> 01:46:24,620
And over the years that I have left,

1623
01:46:24,620 --> 01:46:28,980
I'm going to put as much content on that as I possibly can.

1624
01:46:28,980 --> 01:46:32,300
And so it would be something to look for in the fall of 2020.

1625
01:46:32,300 --> 01:46:33,900
Three Rain. Brilliant.

1626
01:46:33,900 --> 01:46:38,220
You're literally about 30 years too late, because if you see me ride

1627
01:46:38,220 --> 01:46:41,260
when I was a small child on the farm I grew up in,

1628
01:46:41,260 --> 01:46:43,500
I think I needed the entire encyclopedia.

1629
01:46:43,500 --> 01:46:47,340
But it seems like a great app for for everyone now.

1630
01:46:47,340 --> 01:46:50,500
And again, I was telling my wife just just a moment ago

1631
01:46:50,500 --> 01:46:54,340
how this this podcast has been so incredible

1632
01:46:54,340 --> 01:46:58,180
because I get Josh Brolin who recommends your documentary.

1633
01:46:58,180 --> 01:47:01,660
I watch Buck and then a few months later,

1634
01:47:01,660 --> 01:47:04,980
I'm sitting in the arena watching you do the clinic and then now we're talking again.

1635
01:47:04,980 --> 01:47:11,100
So, you know, it's so amazing to to talk to you face to face.

1636
01:47:11,100 --> 01:47:16,500
But watching you work, anyone out there who who rides and I grew up with horses.

1637
01:47:16,500 --> 01:47:20,500
I was not a not a good horseman, just, I guess, brave.

1638
01:47:20,500 --> 01:47:23,620
It was the only thing and I had a very big helmet.

1639
01:47:23,620 --> 01:47:27,700
But it was incredible to watch and seeing the different

1640
01:47:27,700 --> 01:47:30,020
personalities that were circling that arena.

1641
01:47:30,020 --> 01:47:33,740
Some you could see had humility, some you could see were peacocking

1642
01:47:33,740 --> 01:47:36,060
and trying to show everyone how they already had it.

1643
01:47:36,060 --> 01:47:39,540
And it was it was kind of interesting to see how those personalities

1644
01:47:39,540 --> 01:47:44,140
reflected in the horses, reflected in in the instruction that you were giving.

1645
01:47:44,140 --> 01:47:49,140
But, yeah, I cannot speak highly enough of attending one of your clinics.

1646
01:47:49,140 --> 01:47:52,620
I hope that Ocala one day is able to bring you here.

1647
01:47:52,620 --> 01:47:56,100
But I just I thank you so much for your vulnerability.

1648
01:47:56,100 --> 01:48:00,260
I mean, telling your story of a very sad, traumatic childhood.

1649
01:48:00,260 --> 01:48:04,500
But being that beacon of life, excuse me, of light,

1650
01:48:04,500 --> 01:48:07,340
taking that trauma and doing this incredible thing with it.

1651
01:48:07,340 --> 01:48:12,180
And as you said, stopping that cycle is inspiring to me as an Englishman

1652
01:48:12,180 --> 01:48:16,660
and a firefighter that tripped over your, you know, your work.

1653
01:48:16,660 --> 01:48:21,140
But I mean, anyone in the horse world, anyone that owns an animal of any sort,

1654
01:48:21,140 --> 01:48:23,580
that they need to to look into your work.

1655
01:48:23,580 --> 01:48:24,980
And I can't wait to read your book.

1656
01:48:24,980 --> 01:48:28,660
So thank you so much for being so generous and coming on this podcast.

1657
01:48:29,780 --> 01:48:32,060
Well, it's kind of you to say all those nice things.

1658
01:48:32,060 --> 01:48:34,020
Sounds like you'd be talking about someone else.

1659
01:48:34,020 --> 01:48:36,540
I don't know that I deserve all that.

1660
01:48:36,540 --> 01:48:51,780
Well, I look forward to our paths crossing again, James.