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This episode is brought to you by 511 Tactical, a company that I've used for well over a decade,

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and they have created a limited edition everyday hero shirt.

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There are only 2000 of them available and 100% of the proceeds are going to go to charity.

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which is certainly one of the hardest hit areas in America during this crisis.

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And on top of that, as always, they still are offering the 15% discount to all listeners of Behind the Shield using the code SHIELD15.

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So you have the Norris sneaker, which I think is a great comfortable alternative to the heavy cumbersome duty boots.

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You have the uniforms, some of which I wore over a decade ago in Anaheim Fire, which I think are some of the most comfortable.

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And come in a variety of fits to make sure they actually do fit the responder.

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The AMP backpack, which I've used from hiking to loading with plates on a cruise ship to exercise in,

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to traveling across the world when I see family and do interviews.

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And then more recently, the shorts and the jeans are incredibly comfortable.

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Use the code SHIELD15, save 15% and make a difference in your community.

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Welcome to episode 313 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing.

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And this week, I'm so excited to welcome back retired Navy SEAL officer, Jocko Willink.

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Now, Jocko was on the podcast on episode 109.

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And if you missed that, I highly advise listening to that episode as well.

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In that discussion, we definitely focus more on leadership pertaining to the tactical space.

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In this conversation, I wanted to draw out tools that we can use as we find ourselves leaving this pandemic and forging that new normal.

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So lessons learned from this isolation period.

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The way some businesses have refrained themselves to more of an online platform.

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Finding efficiency, overcoming fear, mental health, physical health and so many other topics that I hope will enable people to create a better version of themselves.

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Before we get to that interview, as I always say, please just take a moment.

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Go to iTunes, Stitcher, whatever you listen to this on.

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Subscribe to the show so you know when each episode comes out.

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Leave feedback. I love reading the feedback that you write and then leave a rating.

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The five star ratings really do make this podcast more visible for people who are looking for a project like this.

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And as I mentioned over and over again, this is a free library of some of the greatest minds on planet Earth.

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And I urge you to use this individually in your department, wherever you feel it's pertinent.

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And all I ask in return is that you help share these amazing men and women stories so that we can get them to the ear holes of every single person on planet Earth that needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you again, Jocko Willink. Enjoy.

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Jocko, I want to say thank you so much for being so kind and generous with your time to come back on the Behind the Shield podcast.

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Thanks for having me.

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All right. So where are we finding you on planet Earth today?

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I'm at home in San Diego, California.

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Brilliant. So firstly, it's very sad. I think last week you guys were supposed to be here in Orlando, is that right?

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Yeah, we had an event planned for down there, but because of the virus, we had to cancel it.

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Right. So I guess my first question would be how have you personally in Echelon Front been doing with this shutdown?

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Obviously, one of the big things that you do is go out to two companies.

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So what's been the impact for you business wise and personally?

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Well, you know, from a mission perspective, our mission hasn't changed at all.

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What we do is we try and teach the leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield to other businesses, other companies and other leaders.

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So that mission hasn't changed at all.

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What has changed is our venue for making that happen, where, as you just pointed out, we used to do a lot of face to face events with people, with companies, with businesses.

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And now we're doing it all remotely. So we were heading in that direction.

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We had made some strides and some some footsteps down that pathway.

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We had an online platform that we have been utilizing, but we went from, you know, going five miles an hour with that platform to 100 miles an hour in about four days.

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So it's been awesome.

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Brilliant. Yeah, I think that's a dialogue that's been happening a lot with companies around the world is realizing that some of the brick and mortar models

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that they had were inefficient.

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You know, you get these men and women getting in their car, fighting traffic for an hour and a half to go and sit in front of a computer they could have actually done from home.

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So do you see a change in the kind of business model as far as that's concerned in the future when we come out of this?

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Yep, I think a lot of people are going to be a lot more comfortable working via what we used to call VTC in the military video teleconference.

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So I think everyone's getting used to it. They're using it to socialize.

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And when you're using something to socialize and it actually becomes easier, then people will start to lean towards it.

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And I think that's what's happening.

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Right. Now, what are you personally what are some of the things that you've you found in a positive way since this isolation has happened?

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I mean, for me, it's just another day. Obviously, I'm not traveling, which is kind of nice for me.

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It's actually very nice for me. I don't like to travel.

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So for me to be at home and be able to hang out with my family, this is the most days I've ever spent with my wife in a row.

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So, you know, we've been married for almost 20 years.

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So that's been pretty cool.

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On the other side, what are some of the negative things that you've witnessed, maybe not in your own household?

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Because I think I'm like you, we've had a very positive time so far, but I'm aware of people that definitely have been struggling as well.

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Have you seen any negative effects of this at the moment?

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You know, I'm sure there's all kinds of negative effects out there.

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You know, if people have are in a bad relationship or have a bad fractured family scenario and you put it under this kind of pressure, it's going to fracture even more.

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So I think anybody that's in a tough spot is probably going to end up in a tougher spot.

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Well, if they if they have those fractures that start to spread apart.

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So every every different person's got to look at their situation and say, am I going to am I going to close this up or am I going to make it explode?

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Yeah. Now, what about the leadership thing? So I'm very interested to get your perspective on this.

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I'm not picking on any specific public figure.

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We have a whole gamut from the very top all the way through to local government.

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What are some of the good things that you've seen leadership wise and some of the poor things you've seen during this specific event?

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The good thing I've seen is I've seen some decentralized command happening where, you know, different different down the chain of command.

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People are taking actions, which I think is good.

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You know, the president was saying, hey, governors handle this and the governors were stepping up and handling things.

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And below them, the mayors were stepping up and handling things.

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And decentralized command is the way to get things done.

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Also, the decentralized command of the free market, you know, with the early getting people to start making ventilators, there's no way that the government could have pulled that off.

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You just go to the free market and say, hey, if you make these ventilators, you're going to make money and people figure out how to make it happen.

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So that's been good. The problems I've seen is people not saying not just admitting that they don't exactly know what's going to happen,

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which if you're in a leadership position and you don't know what's going to happen, the best thing to do is say, I don't know what's going to happen.

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Here's my here's the things I'm planning for. Here's what I'm going to watch out for.

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And here's some contingencies I have set up. But I'm not 100 percent sure of what's going to happen.

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The other thing is, from a leadership perspective, if you make a mistake or you make a bad decision, you just say, hey, you know what?

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I just made that call two weeks ago. It was it seemed to be the right call at the time.

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It wasn't the right call. And we're making some adjustments now.

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Do you think that attitude has been discouraged?

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Because I know in the political arena, you know, someone changes their mind, they get called wishy washy like it's a negative thing.

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And to me, obviously saying, yeah, I screwed up or my philosophy is different than a year ago because of X, Y and Z is a very positive, powerful thing.

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Yeah, I think people people are scared of it.

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It's just like it's scary to take ownership of something and say it was my fault.

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You multiply that times the media frenzy and the political hatred.

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Then everyone has a hard time saying, you know what? That was actually a bad decision I made.

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Here's what I want to do now. Yeah, I agree.

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100 percent. If you truly own it and someone says, well, you changed your mind.

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Yeah, exactly. I know I made a bad decision and I fixed it.

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That's what I that's what I will always do.

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I'm not going to draw. I'm not going to fly a plan into the ground.

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I don't work that way. Yeah. Well, another thing is education.

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You know, I mean, I'm sure some of these some of these leaders were advised one way.

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And then as they got more information and maybe some better advisors in in their ear,

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that the decision changes because they have a better information and that now turns them towards a different path.

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Yeah. Well, of course, the same thing in the military.

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You know, you get pieces of intelligence that come in at different times.

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Sometimes they're contradictory to each other.

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And you take those things, you weigh them out.

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And if more information comes in, it changes. You adjust your plan.

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It's no factor. Yeah. Well, you mentioned the media.

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So it's an area that I talked with Tim. Tim Kennedy was on about three weeks ago now.

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Is you know, you have what's actually happening and then you have this fear mongering.

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And sadly, some of our news networks left and right make money from clickbait.

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You know, and that's just that's a known thing.

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So what kind of sickens me is the message that some of these these men and women are getting around the world is that of just fear and a lack of control.

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When obviously the reality is, yes, there is a dangerous component to this, but there are many things that you can do,

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many things that you can even gain positively that we spoke of before.

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So what are you seeing as far as that fear mongering side?

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Well, any any media companies trying to make money by getting people to click on their headlines?

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That's why the headlines are as shocking as they can be and as controversial as they can be.

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And that's what they're doing. So if you know that you go into it knowing that,

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then you can look at various media news sources and just accept the fact that they're going to put out information that's more meant to shock you than it is to to educate you or or provide you with information.

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Yeah. So where have you personally gone for good information during this whole thing?

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Well, what I do is I just look at a bunch of different news sources and just take them all with a grain of salt and balance them out.

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It's the same thing when you do with your gathering intel for for an operation.

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You know, you don't just you don't just look at the overhead imagery.

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You look at the overhead imagery. You check the the intelligence sources.

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You check human human intelligence. You you try and corroborate stuff as much as you possibly can.

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And and then you figure you you make your best assessment of what's correct and you make a plan that is not so rigid that if you are wrong, which you know you could be, you can adjust your plan.

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Absolutely. Now, with the fear side, you know, obviously, this would be interesting getting a military perspective, even though this is a different kind of fear.

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It's like an unknown enemy in a way.

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And a lot of people have never prepared for this. What would be some of the advice you would give for people that that are scared right now and kind of pulling them out to mindset where is more actionable?

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Well, just like any threat, you have to assess the threat, figure out what the actual threat is.

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And there's going to be parts of the threat that you aren't going to be able to control.

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You know, there's some chance there's some chance you're that one young, healthy, you know, 32 year old man that happens to get covid-19 and dies.

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The chances of that are miniscule. But if you focus on that, you're going to be paralyzed.

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You won't be able to do anything if you instead look at it and go, OK, well, there's a small chance.

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But here's here are some things I can do to mitigate that risk.

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I'm going to implement those things to mitigate the risk and move forward.

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That's what you do. The same thing you do in combat.

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You know, you can get you can get killed by a roadside bomb. That can happen.

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No doubt about it. And if you focus on that fear and focus on the fact that you can get killed instead of focusing on how you mitigate that risk,

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you're going to end up in a worse position than if you just say, OK, it's possible.

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Now, I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to focus on the things that I can actually control and focus on mitigating the risk.

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And you'll you'll get through it.

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Yeah. Well, speaking of factors that we can control for me personally, as a firefighter paramedic,

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having seen the ground level for the last 15 years, a glaring thing that seems to be a huge risk factor for having a severe reaction to Covid

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is the the individual's health.

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And yet, sadly, in a lot of these mainstream arenas, we're still not seeing that discussed.

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So which lessons do you think we should take from this as far as the nation's health in general?

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I mean, I mean, I guess you could take it from Covid-19 if you haven't figured out that you should try and remain healthy and eat good foods and work out.

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And I can't really help you.

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Yeah, well, I think that's that's a sad thing.

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I mean, there's so many people out there that are are trying to bring great information, education, be inspirational.

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But it does seem to fall on deaf ears.

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And we do have an obesity crisis and diabetes is rampant.

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And I think there's a there's a bleed into the mental health side with the obesity side as well.

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And so I think this is at least an opportunity to get more attention to highlight that as a as a nation, we're not as resilient as we could be.

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Yeah, work out and eat good foods, eat healthy foods and work out.

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Absolutely. All right. Well, then what about the knock on effect as far as the financial side?

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What are you anticipating?

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Well, it's it's hard to it's hard to predict what's going to happen there. And, you know, you can even get once again,

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contrarian views from different people in different parts of the media and even different people in the finance world are making different types of predictions.

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I would say to me, there's there's not an underlying economic issue like there was in the 2007 2008 crash,

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where there was there were some pretty significant problems with the structure of the economy at the time.

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This time, it's the fact is we shut it down and hopefully when we open it back up,

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you know, it'll take a little bit of time to get back, get back up to up to speed.

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But, you know, there's been a bunch of money that's been injected into the economy.

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And I I hope that the recovery will be, you know, relatively quick.

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Now, are you surprised by some of these large businesses that literally a few weeks into it were folding?

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I know Gold's Gym is one of them. I think that was only four weeks into closures that they announced bankruptcy.

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Well, you've got to you've got to set up your business just like you set up your life.

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And if you're living paycheck to paycheck, then you're then if you run into an emergency,

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you're not going to be able to get through it. So you want to if you're running a business, it's the same thing.

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You want to have enough money, you know, a set aside for emergency scenarios like this.

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You know, I have a gym in San Diego and it's it's a big giant gym with 2000 members in it.

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And it's been shut down, you know, for a couple of months now.

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And we we are doing a bunch of repairs to the gym. We're refitting a bunch of it.

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We're getting it ready to open back up again, hopefully soon.

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But, you know, we had enough money to to get through the hard times and we that's what you do.

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You know, same thing with that's along the front, you know, immediately, I think, four days after things started shutting down,

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we had canceled 37 events in like three or four days.

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So guess what? It's OK. We you know, we have money set aside.

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We're not living paycheck to paycheck as a business.

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So, yeah, it's a good lesson learned. Hopefully people can get through it.

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The government came to the aid of a lot of people, I think, and a lot of businesses.

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So hopefully that will help out and it will remind people that in the future, you know, you want to be able to fend for yourself.

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Yeah. And it seems like it's highlighting again, some inefficiencies, you know, the gyms that are gyms or online businesses or any kind of business model that is efficient seems to be a little bit more resilient during this.

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But one that's just stuck in a kind of brick and mortar arena that's not able to deviate from that seem to be the ones that are most at risk.

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Yeah, I mean, for sure. You know, around here, I live in San Diego and the restaurants are definitely hurting and restaurants.

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That's a very, very hard business to be in. And yet, if you've had a business, if you've had a restaurant for 10 years, what happens is it's easy to get complacent because you've had consistent.

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If you've got a successful restaurant, you're getting you're getting consistent income month after month, year after year for five, 10, 15 years.

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And so you get to a point where you've sort of set up this this cycle of survival, where, you know, you're not you're not you're not setting aside a bunch of money to survive a catastrophe like this.

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And you know what? It's OK. You just got away with it for a decade.

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You know, you got away with it for a decade. And now it just it hurts right now.

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And it may end up costing you the business. So it's smart to set things up. It's smart to just live within your means and run your business within your means.

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Yeah. Well, I mentioned the health of the nation.

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One thing I wanted to get to when I was on that topic and I passed it was Tim and a couple of the military guests I've had on mentioned about the pool that they were able to pull members of military special special operations from

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was getting smaller because the nation was was losing some of its inherent health.

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Is that something that you've seen with the men and women that you work amongst?

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The the people that are going in the SEAL teams right now, the guys, the guys are beasts.

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They're total studs. I don't know.

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I don't know what the pool's like, but I know the guys that are showing up there are in way better shape than we were back in back in the day.

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Right. Now, what do you think that is? Is that the movement across it and Jiu-Jitsu and some of those other arenas?

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I think they just have more knowledge. You know, when I came into the Navy, I didn't didn't even, you know, for me, a good pull, a good workout was to go and do, you know, five sets of max pull ups, you know, and and and finish a workout doing whatever.

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Seventy five pull ups or something like that.

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I never would have thought of doing, hey, I'm going to sit here and do five hundred pull ups or eight hundred pull ups.

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And everybody knows to do that now. So, you know, same thing with running, same thing with lifting, same thing with squatting.

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There's just so much more information out there. I mean, I couldn't go back to the library in 1990 and find a book about how to get better at pull ups.

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But you can go on the Internet right now and get 10000 articles about how to get better at pull ups.

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So there's more information out there and people are taking advantage of it.

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Absolutely. Well, speaking of that, I've been focusing a lot on gymnastic work while we've been using the home gym again.

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What are some of the things that you've been doing, not being able to be around, you know,

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multiple people in the gym setting to improve your either your fitness or your Jiu Jitsu game?

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You know, I have a gym in my house.

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So, you know, with all the necessary things to get good workouts.

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And so that's fine. And as far as Jiu Jitsu for me, it was just a little time to.

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I've always found that if I was forced to take some time off from Jiu Jitsu, it allowed some stuff to gel inside my head.

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So I just was like, OK, cool. I'll do some other things, you know, shoot my bow and arrow.

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You know, there's the waves have been good. So I've been surfing, just doing some other things.

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And I'm about to start doing Jiu Jitsu again. So no factor. Get back into it. No big deal.

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Absolutely. I've been hitting the heavy bag, which I neglected my striking for years and years and years.

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And it was absolutely humbling at first because I could barely kick above my waist.

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But just working on the weaknesses instead.

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OK, so then I wanted to get to the the school thing as well.

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I know you've got some some children and older and some that are still school age.

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How have they handled the shift from regular school to home school?

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They're just doing the classes online and, you know,

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they're spending more time surfing and working out than they were before because they have more time at home.

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You know, no big deal. I don't think it's a big deal.

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No, I'm saying that's an improvement.

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And I'm not saying that my son my son misses school.

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He wants to go back to school. But it's just been interesting the areas of school that that,

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you know, the pros and cons of the way we do it right now.

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I just had a guy from Finland on two days ago who goes around the world talking about different school systems.

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So, you know, I'm seeing some pros with him and he's really enjoying this time at home.

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And as you said, getting to do more play.

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But then, you know, he's sitting down having to do the online stuff, too.

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Are they do they seem an improvement in other areas of mental health, happiness, anything of that?

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Or are they pretty much the same?

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I have three daughters and one son.

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I would say that my son couldn't be any happier than he is right now.

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Seventeen years old, he's working out three or four hours a day.

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He's surfing three or four hours a day.

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I'd say it's no factor for him.

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My girls are doing great, you know, touring college, but they're now they've been sent home from college to do their studies at home.

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They're doing fine. And then I have a 10 year old daughter and she's doing what she does.

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She's getting in the water, surfing, working out, doing her schoolwork online, doing a bunch of projects.

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So I think it's just no factor.

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Yeah, actually, I think that's the thing is it's a win win either way.

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So speaking of kids staying on that subject, I reached out to you via Twitter, which I barely ever use.

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A little while ago, because my son had been going through some stuff and it was tied in definitely to to what was going on in the other household.

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Sadly, we're divorced and the the second warrior kid really was one of the things that he connected with.

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So what's some of the feedback now?

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You've got multiple different titles in that series from some of the parents that you're having reaching out to you.

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Oh, it's the best feedback ever.

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You know, the the big thing is, is I would say the main feedback from parents is first of all, obviously it helps the kids out.

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But second of all, it helps the parents out.

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And third, I'm not telling the kids things that the parents don't want the kids to know.

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It's just that kids have a higher tendency to listen to Uncle Jake than they do to their own parents.

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And hey, I don't mean that to be insulting.

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Look, I got I got four kids and I can tell you right now we all know that there comes a certain age and a certain time when your kids are going to be rebellious.

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They have to be otherwise.

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They're not they're not being they're not being led correctly, because if they're not rebelling against you in some way,

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that means they're looking for your protection and looking to to stay underneath your wing, which they should be wanting to get out from your wing.

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That's what that rebellion signifies to me.

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So they're going to be looking for other sources outside of you to guide them.

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And that's just the way it is.

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And if you provide them with a source, then that source will give them information that you want them to have.

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It'll be from an alternate place, and it makes it more palatable to them when they're going through their rebellious stage.

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And by the way, the rebellious stage starts at birth.

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You know, they're they're pushing the envelope when they're born.

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They're trying to figure out what they can get away with.

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And, you know, they they oscillate between, you know, being extremely rebellious and slightly rebellious.

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And sometimes they may even wander for a few moments into the obedience stage.

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But my kids, none of them ever spent very much time in that in that phase.

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So Uncle Jake is a is a guy that they can look to that will pretty much give them the same values that most parents want their kids to have.

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Hard work, discipline, be clean, work out, eat right.

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I mean, what parent doesn't want their kids to do those things, but they hear it from a source that's different, that's outside, that they have a respect for.

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And it provides those kids with a framework to live a better life.

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You think it's the same element is why when people do find someone they consider a mentor, that relationship works so well.

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I guess so. You know, the the idea of mentors is something I know is is very prevalent in the world.

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People talk about mentors and I just.

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You know, I never used that word. I don't think I even heard that word until I maybe I maybe I was 10 years into the Navy.

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Maybe I heard it once or twice, but there was there was no time in my life where I said, oh, yeah, this individual is my mentor.

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I never said that. I never thought that I never had anyone come to me and say, hey, I want to mentor you.

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That being said, I was absolutely watching the people around me looking at them, seeing what I could learn, asking them questions,

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mimicking the things that I thought they did well, rejecting the things I saw leaders do that I thought didn't work.

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So I understand mentorship as a concept, but it was never a huge part of my life, probably because I never looked to one individual to be my guide.

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I always saw certain aspects of people that that was good.

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And then I would usually see certain aspects that were bad.

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So I always had an open mind and just look to learn as much as I can, could both from the negative and the positive that I saw.

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Yeah. And that's kind of how I perceive it, too.

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I know there's that one philosophy where it's a human that kind of walks you through the entire human experience.

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But it's more to me if someone asked me, what are the the 10 most influential people in your life that that combined experience of all those men and women would be, you know, my mentor experience through through my profession.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Right. Well, then I just want to stay on the parenting for one more thing.

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A few people when I asked, you know, do you have questions with Jocko online?

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Parenting did come up over and over again.

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So is there any kind of principles or philosophies that you and your wife had raising your children?

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Yeah, it's it's the same principles that I talk about from about leadership all the time.

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You know, give people you want somebody to make something you want somebody to carry out a mission.

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Don't tell them exactly what it is, how you want them to do it.

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You say, here's the mission. Get it done. Figure it out.

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Take ownership of it and go make it happen.

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Don't try and box people in. Don't try and control them.

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Give them as much give them as much liberty to maneuver as you possibly can.

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And as long as they treat that freedom with responsibility, give them more.

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And if they if they take advantage of that liberty, then you tighten them up and you teach them about consequences.

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So it's the same leadership principles you have to use all the time.

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You know, stay detached from people, cover and move for them.

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Keep things simple. Prioritize next. You decentralized command.

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It's the same things that that I've written about that I talk about the thing.

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The thing that separates leading a team from leading your family is that with your family,

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you have to you have to pay more attention to staying detached emotionally because because it's our family and we care deeply about them.

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We have a higher tendency to lose our temper, to get emotional, to allow something to bother us more than it should,

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to want to control people more than we would in a normal person that we weren't related to.

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So you have to use greater caution in controlling your emotions.

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Right. Now, what about the balance between the philosophy of walk softly, but carry a big stick?

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You yourself, obviously, are a very alpha figure, you know, physically and in the world in general now.

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How are you able to balance them being hard with that soft kind of compassion, kindness element as well?

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Well, I'm not sure that that that phrase of speak softly, but carry a big stick.

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I mean, that means, hey, I'm not going to sit here and run my mouth.

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But if you get out of line, I'm going to smack you in the head with this giant stick.

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You know, that was that was that was America.

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You know, America is not over here making a spectacle.

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We're just over here doing what we're doing.

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But if you get out of line with us, you're going to you're going to get the big stick.

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So I don't know if that really translates to the dichotomy that you're talking about possibly of or that you're perceiving that.

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Hey, as a parent, perhaps I am, you know, super aggressive in some ways and yet, you know,

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caring in other ways, and that's just not a accurate perception.

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I mean, it's not an accurate perception with my family.

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It's not an accurate perception with with with people that I work with either.

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I mean, I'm not the only the only humans in the world that would ever feel that I was a

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an aggressive person that was going to do everything in my power to destroy them would be people that were the enemy of my country or people that betrayed me.

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So and that's that's so as far as working with my family, I mean, my family is not thinking, oh, you're super aggressive.

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You know, people that work with me aren't thinking, oh, you're super aggressive until they see me, you know,

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dealing with a, you know, somebody that's crossed the line.

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And then and then they might see, oh, OK, yeah, don't don't cross the line.

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That's a good idea. Yeah.

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But I'm not even talking from a parent point of view.

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I'm talking about raising a little boy, a little girl that that is kind and compassionate.

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But in the world of kindness and compassion, you also have to give them the tools to to be able to function.

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And like you said, if they are required to protect themselves, God forbid that they have those tools as well.

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So I don't mean big stick as far as an aggressive thing, but the hard skills of, you know, jujitsu, for example, strength, fitness

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versus the soft skills of being a caring, gentle child as well.

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Yeah, I mean, you you definitely want to teach your kids so that they can handle themselves, no doubt about it.

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You want them to be strong and tough and resilient and be able to, you know, get physical if they need to.

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And, you know, that's that's just sort of part of life.

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It's a part of life that often gets ignored, but it's a part of life that you shouldn't ignore.

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It's a part of life that if you ignore, it ends up being much, much worse for you in the long run.

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But yeah, as far as you know, when I look at those things and that's kind of what I did in the warrior kid books,

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you can see the constant theme in those books as far as relationships with other kids is understanding what the other kids perspectives are,

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whether it's Kenny Williamson, whether it's Nathan James, any of these kids.

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The idea isn't, oh, they're different from me.

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That's why I'm going to be mean to them or that's why I'm allowed to lash out at them.

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The idea is they're different than me.

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Why are they different? How can I help them?

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How can I understand where they're coming from?

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And that's what I try and teach my kids.

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Brilliant. Love that. Well, speaking of compassion, as I was writing to Jamie,

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one of one of the moments, one of the things that you've spoken about that I think has had the biggest global influence,

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especially outside the men and women that maybe would naturally be drawn to your work,

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is the kind of sound bite they did of when someone wrote to you and Echo was reading out the question

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and it was a man who'd lost a child and they asked you how you deal with grief.

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So I thought the response was incredible and I saw the impact that it had.

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Even when I posted just the comments that I got.

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When was your first moment of grief that you started down that road of really understanding?

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Because that's the emotion that you can't understand until you've personally experienced it.

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Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately for me in the SEAL teams,

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you know, we have gone through a lot of that and personally, you know, I've lost a lot of friends.

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And so I guess if I was to dig into it,

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the first friend that I lost in the SEAL teams was a guy named Alton Lee Grizzard,

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who was murdered in 1993 in San Diego and was a great guy, total stud.

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You know, he was the quarterback at the Naval Academy, broke all of Roger Stalbach's records,

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just a beast of a guy, charismatic, funny, charming, humble, just an incredible guy.

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And he got shot by another guy from the Naval Academy, you know, over a girl.

384
00:33:53,780 --> 00:33:57,680
And then the guy killed the girl and then the guy killed himself.

385
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,980
So there was no, you know, there was no outlet for anger or anything like that.

386
00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:06,080
And yeah, that was the first time I ever went and he was a great friend of mine.

387
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,780
You know, we had a lot of incredible times together.

388
00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:15,680
And, you know, his dad kind of knew who I was from him.

389
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,780
We had a couple, we'd made some really funny videos.

390
00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:22,480
He was one of the first guys I knew that had a video camera.

391
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,280
And so we had made these really funny videos and he had shown his dad all these videos

392
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,480
and we looked alike.

393
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,180
So we kind of looked like brothers and we would tell people we were brothers and we just had a great time.

394
00:34:31,180 --> 00:34:34,980
And so when he got killed, that was kind of my first experience and I was younger, a lot younger.

395
00:34:34,980 --> 00:34:36,880
I think I was 22 at the time.

396
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,580
So, you know, I didn't really, I just, you know, just gutted through it like anybody.

397
00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:50,480
But when I started losing guys in combat, you know, Mark Lee, Mikey Monsoor, Ryan Job,

398
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,880
those guys, I had to really think through it and see things from, you know, I was older than,

399
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,880
I was able to detach a little bit more.

400
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,480
I was able to understand what was happening.

401
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,680
I was able to see what was happening.

402
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,180
And even though no one had ever explained it to me, once I started doing reps in those

403
00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:12,480
categories, you know, once you start doing things over and over again, and like I said,

404
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:17,380
these were not, you know, I had lost a couple of friends before that.

405
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:22,180
Once the war started, I'd lost like the first several SEALs that were killed.

406
00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:23,780
I knew all of them.

407
00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:28,780
And so, you know, each time I would feel a little bit of grief and start to go through it.

408
00:35:28,780 --> 00:35:32,180
But then I think, you know, when I started losing my own guys that I really knew that were really

409
00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:41,180
good friends that were, you know, in my unit, then I got to see that experience repetitively.

410
00:35:41,180 --> 00:35:42,480
And then it continued on.

411
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:48,580
And because the wars lasted so long, it was just repetitions, getting the reps in and

412
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:49,880
recognizing what was happening.

413
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,380
And it became very obvious.

414
00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:56,980
I saw the, you know, once I went through it once, then twice, then three times, four times,

415
00:35:56,980 --> 00:36:00,180
five times, you start to realize, you start to see the same patterns and you know what's

416
00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:00,680
going to happen.

417
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,980
And then somebody asked me that question and I just related what you're going to feel.

418
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:10,380
And what was interesting when I said, hey, here's what you're going to feel.

419
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:14,680
People that had been through it all said, yep, that's exactly what it is.

420
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,280
That's exactly what it is.

421
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:17,580
So I don't know.

422
00:36:17,580 --> 00:36:22,780
Maybe I'm unlucky that I've had to experience enough loss to go through those repetitions

423
00:36:22,780 --> 00:36:28,180
over and over again and actually be able to document what they are.

424
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:33,780
But I'm glad I was able to at least get something good out of it because the scariest thing

425
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:38,480
about it for someone is that you don't have, there's times where you're not in control,

426
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,980
you know, and if you're, you're like me and you're like have good control over your

427
00:36:41,980 --> 00:36:45,680
emotions and you're a grown man and, and you realize, oh, you know what, sometimes you're

428
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,580
just not going to have any control over what's about to happen for the next 20 minutes.

429
00:36:48,580 --> 00:36:51,180
You're, you're going to be a disaster and that's the way it's going to be.

430
00:36:51,180 --> 00:36:53,880
And that can be a nightmare if you don't know what it is.

431
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,180
If you know what it is, then you go, okay, this is just one of those waves hitting me.

432
00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:58,380
I got to go with it for right now.

433
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:02,180
It'll be over in a little while and they will subside over time.

434
00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:03,180
Yeah.

435
00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:06,180
Now when, when you were going through that, obviously there are all kinds of routes that

436
00:37:06,180 --> 00:37:08,180
we can go down, some more positive than others.

437
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:12,780
Were there any kind of positive outlets that you would lean into when you were going through

438
00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:15,180
periods like that?

439
00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:22,480
Um, well, when I was overseas fighting, like just get back to work and deal with it later.

440
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,540
No one wants to hear that.

441
00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:28,580
But the fact of the matter is when you're fighting in war, you don't have time to take

442
00:37:28,580 --> 00:37:30,460
a big break and process everything.

443
00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:34,620
So you just put it in the back of your mind until you get home and you can, you can go

444
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:35,620
through it later.

445
00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:36,620
That's what you have to do.

446
00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:41,780
And I think the human, human mind is pretty adept at making that happen.

447
00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:46,020
Um, you know, but what would I do?

448
00:37:46,020 --> 00:37:47,020
Yeah.

449
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:53,140
Do jiu-jitsu, surf, um, play guitar, hang out, hang out with my family, hang out with

450
00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:56,140
my friends and watch the sunset and appreciate it.

451
00:37:56,140 --> 00:37:57,140
Yeah.

452
00:37:57,140 --> 00:37:58,740
Gratitude definitely seems the enemy of sadness.

453
00:37:58,740 --> 00:37:59,740
That's for sure.

454
00:37:59,740 --> 00:38:07,940
Um, well in episode 160, you did the New York life, um, episode and you talked about losing

455
00:38:07,940 --> 00:38:15,260
Seth and this really kind of resonated with me because in my career personally, I've lost

456
00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:20,520
tens and tens of first responders, you know, but none of them were what we would class

457
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,620
a line of duty death.

458
00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:27,380
They were, you know, outside events, either something like a car crash or cancer, auto

459
00:38:27,380 --> 00:38:28,860
immune disease, suicide overdose.

460
00:38:28,860 --> 00:38:35,140
I mean, just a host of things, but so there wasn't that kind of, almost like Hollywood

461
00:38:35,140 --> 00:38:38,420
ridiculous facade that well, we died doing what we love and all that stuff.

462
00:38:38,420 --> 00:38:42,780
It wasn't, it was watching them fighting some horrendous tumor until it finally snuffed

463
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:48,980
them out or, you know, I'm not going to go into too much, but, and it seemed like that

464
00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:54,380
particular one was incredibly hard for you, because Seth was obviously a very close friend,

465
00:38:54,380 --> 00:38:56,580
but it wasn't in combat either.

466
00:38:56,580 --> 00:39:01,620
Did you struggle with the fact that, you know, the, the, the way that was written was so

467
00:39:01,620 --> 00:39:07,980
different from what soldiers firefighters are prepared when they enter, you know, a

468
00:39:07,980 --> 00:39:09,460
life threatening scenario.

469
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:14,980
Um, did you struggle with dealing with that because it didn't fit the narrative, I guess?

470
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:22,380
Uh, no, I just, I was just, uh, hard because he was my best friend and, and a one of a

471
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:25,780
kind human and he was gone.

472
00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:26,780
Right.

473
00:39:26,780 --> 00:39:32,300
Well, in the, the letter that he wrote, it sounded like, you know, he, he was, uh, dealing

474
00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:34,780
with some things that he brought back from war.

475
00:39:34,780 --> 00:39:39,340
When, when you were in command, um, something that, you know, I think is very important

476
00:39:39,340 --> 00:39:40,340
is vulnerability.

477
00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:43,940
Obviously Jason Gardner was incredibly invulnerable in the interview I did with him and then Iris

478
00:39:43,940 --> 00:39:47,140
on yours and she came on mine with Jason as well.

479
00:39:47,140 --> 00:39:52,500
Um, it's so, so important for, I think for, for people that we admire to be vulnerable.

480
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:59,540
Um, how were you able to create an environment that the men under your command felt like

481
00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:00,820
they could talk?

482
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:07,460
Like it was an open door policy, but from an emotional point of view?

483
00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:17,340
Um, I guess if I was able to do that, which I'm not sure I always was because, you know,

484
00:40:17,340 --> 00:40:22,220
I think guys always would have a hard time telling me that they were, uh, having issues

485
00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:31,500
because, uh, they knew I was, you know, um, a hardcore guy and they would be, they wouldn't

486
00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:32,500
want to let me down.

487
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:33,900
That's primarily what it was.

488
00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:38,460
So I always had to kind of proactively make sure that guys were talking to me if they

489
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:39,980
needed to talk to me.

490
00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:44,660
Um, but you know, I think guys would have the same attitude around these things as they

491
00:40:44,660 --> 00:40:48,540
did around the fact that if they didn't like a plan that we were going to execute, they

492
00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:51,220
would say, Hey, we shouldn't do this operation that way.

493
00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:52,540
We should do it this way.

494
00:40:52,540 --> 00:40:57,820
Or if guys were, if guys were getting worn out or they were too tired, someone would

495
00:40:57,820 --> 00:41:03,100
come to me and say, Hey man, guys need a freaking break or this guy needs a break or I need

496
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:04,100
a break.

497
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:10,820
So I think it's just having the relationships with your team to make sure that, to make

498
00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:14,140
sure that they can come to you and say, Hey, look, I'm, I'm done.

499
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:17,220
And you also got to pay enough attention to them because a lot of times they won't come

500
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:22,100
and tell you that you got to pay enough attention to them that at least with me, like people

501
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:27,140
don't complain to me, you know, people don't come, come to me and say, Hey, I'm tired.

502
00:41:27,140 --> 00:41:31,820
Hey, um, unless there's, unless there's like a real serious problem, they don't just randomly

503
00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:37,460
complain so I have to be proactive about making sure I'm checking in and, and, and measuring

504
00:41:37,460 --> 00:41:39,620
where guys are at.

505
00:41:39,620 --> 00:41:43,780
Because also when you're in a leadership position, everything's fun and everything's awesome.

506
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:50,340
And you're not the one that's, that's getting, you know, loading up your gear one more time.

507
00:41:50,340 --> 00:41:51,680
You're not the one that's following.

508
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,420
You're the one that's leading and it's more fun to lead.

509
00:41:54,420 --> 00:41:58,820
And so you have to be careful and think about the fact that when you're following, it's

510
00:41:58,820 --> 00:41:59,820
harder.

511
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:03,500
It's harder on well, at least for some people, some people would rather follow some people's

512
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:08,060
attitude is like, they would rather just have me say, Hey man, here's what we're going to

513
00:42:08,060 --> 00:42:09,060
do.

514
00:42:09,060 --> 00:42:10,060
And they go awesome.

515
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:11,060
And they want to go execute it.

516
00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:16,260
Other people, they would rather be the one that's, you know, has more control over their destiny.

517
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:21,060
So the bottom line is to answer your question, you got to have relationships.

518
00:42:21,060 --> 00:42:22,700
You got to know your people well enough.

519
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:29,140
You got to talk to them and make sure that when they feel bad about something that they,

520
00:42:29,140 --> 00:42:33,460
whether it's a plan, whether it's their emotions, whether it's the way you handled something,

521
00:42:33,460 --> 00:42:37,620
if they're afraid to tell you, then, then they're not going to tell you.

522
00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:38,620
And that's a problem.

523
00:42:38,620 --> 00:42:47,380
And so, like I said, I wasn't, I didn't give off the, uh, the, uh, the face of, Hey, come

524
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:49,140
and tell me what all your issues are.

525
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:54,860
So I had to be proactively get it out of people and check in with people and make sure that

526
00:42:54,860 --> 00:42:55,860
they were okay.

527
00:42:55,860 --> 00:42:58,380
I mean, I remember my first deployment to Iraq, there was a guy that was like, I just

528
00:42:58,380 --> 00:43:05,100
want, he was walking around our, our chow hall area and we had little boxed milk.

529
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:08,500
It was goat milk and it tasted like crap, but whatever.

530
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:09,500
And he's freaking out.

531
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:12,300
I just, I want some real freaking milk.

532
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:13,780
Why can't, why don't they have cows?

533
00:43:13,780 --> 00:43:15,140
What's wrong with this?

534
00:43:15,140 --> 00:43:16,140
And I was like, you know what?

535
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:20,180
I'm sending this guy back to a little logistics rod and for a few days to go get some, you

536
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:24,980
know, go, go get some weapons parts or whatever I made up to get this guy on a plane, get

537
00:43:24,980 --> 00:43:31,100
him down to afford to, to a less intense area and pick up some weapons part.

538
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:32,700
Meanwhile, get some real freaking milk.

539
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:33,700
So he chills out.

540
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,980
You know, it's interesting you say that because I've mentioned some a few times with some

541
00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:43,540
of the other guests in the fire service, you know, when we saw what we think was a, was

542
00:43:43,540 --> 00:43:47,460
a hot button, you know, the, the perfect fireman thing to do was to start pushing it, you know,

543
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:48,460
messing with someone.

544
00:43:48,460 --> 00:43:53,380
And now, you know, retroactively looking back, you see some of these men and women that actually

545
00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:55,140
were were struggling.

546
00:43:55,140 --> 00:43:56,880
So they weren't just being pissy.

547
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,820
They weren't just, you know, in a shitty mood.

548
00:43:58,820 --> 00:44:00,260
It was a reason they were.

549
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:03,860
And I think that I hope that the philosophy has changed a little bit with us now, like

550
00:44:03,860 --> 00:44:08,580
you were saying, to, to be able to differentiate between someone just being, you know, for

551
00:44:08,580 --> 00:44:12,540
lack of a better word, little bitch that day and someone who's truly hurting.

552
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:17,660
And I think that the tricky thing about this is the fact that we have to create an environment

553
00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:22,420
to be looking out for each other, but then also an environment where that person that's

554
00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:24,660
in pain feels comfortable to reach out.

555
00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:26,780
And that's, that's a pretty hard balance to find.

556
00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:27,780
Yeah.

557
00:44:27,780 --> 00:44:33,540
And there's a dichotomy too, because you can just, there, there's some guys that they're

558
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:36,580
hurting and you go, Hey bro, suck it up.

559
00:44:36,580 --> 00:44:38,940
And that's actually what they need to hear.

560
00:44:38,940 --> 00:44:44,340
And so the idea that what everyone needs is a shoulder to cry on somebody.

561
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:49,060
Sometimes people need like a smack across the face and like, Hey man, get a grip.

562
00:44:49,060 --> 00:44:50,500
This is not a big deal.

563
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:52,580
We need to move forward.

564
00:44:52,580 --> 00:44:53,900
That's okay.

565
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:58,260
And, and to think that every time someone says, Hey, I'm emotionally hurting you, you

566
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:04,580
know, the response is, well, what can we do to, you know, bend over and support you and,

567
00:45:04,580 --> 00:45:09,020
and give, give you the, you know, the, the massage that you need to get you through this.

568
00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:13,660
Sometimes what people need is, Hey man, this is no big deal.

569
00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:15,840
We've all been through what you're going through right now.

570
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,820
You need to suck it up and get your shit together.

571
00:45:18,820 --> 00:45:26,780
So let's not get crazy and think that everybody that has emotional issues is going to, you

572
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:34,020
know, needs some, um, some, uh, like I said, some, some emotional coddling.

573
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:38,100
Sometimes people need to get told, Hey man, get a grip on reality.

574
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:39,340
We got work to do.

575
00:45:39,340 --> 00:45:44,020
And I've, I've used that eight times, nine times out of 10.

576
00:45:44,020 --> 00:45:45,100
That's what people need.

577
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:47,580
That's what they actually want.

578
00:45:47,580 --> 00:45:51,900
And then occasionally you get someone that you say that to, and you can see the look

579
00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:52,900
in their eyes.

580
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:54,900
No, they're not going to get, they're not going to make this happen.

581
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:59,500
This isn't, they're not going to get through this without a break, without some help, without

582
00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:04,220
a longer talk, without some, some kind of intervention that's going to, that's going

583
00:46:04,220 --> 00:46:05,740
to move them to the right place.

584
00:46:05,740 --> 00:46:06,740
Yeah.

585
00:46:06,740 --> 00:46:10,340
Now an interesting thing came up a little while ago and it made me think of, you know, I want

586
00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:11,740
to make sure that we talked about it.

587
00:46:11,740 --> 00:46:17,820
I had a lady on Dr. Sally Spencer Thomas, who is kind of mental health professional

588
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:22,380
and she works not only with first responders, but with the construction industry and they

589
00:46:22,380 --> 00:46:23,820
were seeing a lot of issues there.

590
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:27,780
And one of the things she talked about was control, which is an interesting topic seeing

591
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:32,260
as we're in a, an environment at the moment where some control has been taken from some

592
00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:35,220
people, IE opening their businesses.

593
00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:39,860
But I think that an area that I really learned from, from some of the other seals that I

594
00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:42,740
had on was how you had that decentralized command.

595
00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:47,160
You had this group of men that were trained and you would, you know, rotate the pseudo

596
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:52,700
leadership roles and there was that kind of band of brothers feeling.

597
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:56,860
And to me, from a mental health point of view, that seems like a great way to be.

598
00:46:56,860 --> 00:47:00,380
And I've seen the same thing in the very cohesive fire crews that I've worked with where we

599
00:47:00,380 --> 00:47:01,740
do tell each other everything.

600
00:47:01,740 --> 00:47:05,580
I've literally had, I've been at a funeral of a fireman who took his own life, where

601
00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:09,540
one of my men that I worked with called me in tears because I'd written a blog about

602
00:47:09,540 --> 00:47:13,340
mental health saying, I realized now I've got PTSD, you know?

603
00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:17,440
So even though I hadn't worked there for eight years and he was two and a half thousand miles

604
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,780
away in California, he still reached out to me to talk to me.

605
00:47:20,780 --> 00:47:23,820
That is, you know, I think that environment.

606
00:47:23,820 --> 00:47:29,020
And they also then underline the opposite where if you have the kind of micromanagement

607
00:47:29,020 --> 00:47:32,940
system where men and women, let's say in the fire service, police service, whatever department

608
00:47:32,940 --> 00:47:37,260
they're in, don't feel like they have a lot of control, then that splintering is not only

609
00:47:37,260 --> 00:47:43,540
bad from a leadership point of view, but also from a mental health point of view as well.

610
00:47:43,540 --> 00:47:50,380
Well yeah, the one of the things that I teach leaders in the civilian sector is a lesson

611
00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:58,180
I learned in the military sector, which is I couldn't, I couldn't pay you more money.

612
00:47:58,180 --> 00:47:59,820
I couldn't, I didn't have the ability.

613
00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:04,100
Look, I could get you a promotion once every three years and you'd get an extra $280 a

614
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:09,860
month, but that's no, that's no real immediate gratification reward.

615
00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:14,420
The best thing to compensate people with and the thing that people value actually more

616
00:48:14,420 --> 00:48:18,260
than money is control over their own destiny.

617
00:48:18,260 --> 00:48:19,460
It's freedom.

618
00:48:19,460 --> 00:48:20,720
That's what they value.

619
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,900
And so if you worked for me and you did a good job, I couldn't give you more money,

620
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:27,580
but I gave you something even more valuable and that's freedom, freedom in the way you

621
00:48:27,580 --> 00:48:32,220
did your job, freedom from micromanagement, freedom to come and go when you wanted.

622
00:48:32,220 --> 00:48:35,420
As long as you were doing what you needed to get done, you had all the freedom that

623
00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:36,660
you wanted.

624
00:48:36,660 --> 00:48:43,280
And so yes, if you're don't give people freedom, then they, they, they suffer, they suffer.

625
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:50,540
But the other thing is when you don't have control over yourself, that doesn't feel good

626
00:48:50,540 --> 00:48:51,540
either.

627
00:48:51,540 --> 00:48:54,420
And that's why, you know, when it came, when it, when it comes to, when we're connecting

628
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:59,060
some of the dots here, you know, one of the things that I talked about on that, on the,

629
00:48:59,060 --> 00:49:03,380
you know, getting people through when, when you're going through grief, when you lose

630
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:07,780
someone, part of it is, Hey, you can't, you're not going to be able to control some of this.

631
00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:08,940
It's just not going to happen.

632
00:49:08,940 --> 00:49:10,820
You're not going to be able to control your emotions.

633
00:49:10,820 --> 00:49:11,900
You're going to break down.

634
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:15,420
You're going to cry like a baby and it's going to last 20 minutes and then it'll be over.

635
00:49:15,420 --> 00:49:16,420
But there's nothing you can do about it.

636
00:49:16,420 --> 00:49:18,820
You just have to deal with it.

637
00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:25,180
But like I was saying before, sometimes when I would tell a guy, Hey man, get a grip on

638
00:49:25,180 --> 00:49:30,460
your emotions right now and start acting like a man, we got work to do.

639
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:34,180
People would take control and when they would take control, they would say, Oh, you know

640
00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:35,180
what?

641
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:36,180
I got this.

642
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:37,180
I can get through this.

643
00:49:37,180 --> 00:49:40,820
So look, it's a fine line and I'm no mental health expert.

644
00:49:40,820 --> 00:49:45,540
All I can tell you is, you know, what, what I've been through and what I've seen.

645
00:49:45,540 --> 00:49:51,480
So there are times, yeah, where people need some, where people aren't in control and they

646
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,540
need help.

647
00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:56,020
They need guidance to regain it and really that's what it is.

648
00:49:56,020 --> 00:50:00,340
If you think about what a mental health practitioner does, they're trying to steer people where

649
00:50:00,340 --> 00:50:04,660
they can get control of their, their mental status again.

650
00:50:04,660 --> 00:50:08,820
But there are oftentimes where if someone says, you know what?

651
00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:10,220
I'm not going to let this happen.

652
00:50:10,220 --> 00:50:11,820
I'm not going to go down that road.

653
00:50:11,820 --> 00:50:15,500
I'm going to take control of this and I'm going to move forward.

654
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:21,460
So and sometimes all it takes is someone saying, Hey man, you don't need to, you don't need

655
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:24,620
to act like this, get a grip.

656
00:50:24,620 --> 00:50:29,820
And they go, you know what, Roger, you see that even in basic seal training, someone

657
00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:35,920
would be, you know, ready to quit and someone else would say, Hey, shut up, don't quit.

658
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,100
And you'd see the guy kind of shake his head and go, yeah, Roger, that get back in line

659
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:41,260
and go do what you're supposed to do.

660
00:50:41,260 --> 00:50:44,300
And if you didn't push them in that, if they didn't get pushed in that direction, they

661
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:47,340
made it may have gone and quit on the spot.

662
00:50:47,340 --> 00:50:54,220
So that, that happens in with every emotion, you know, and I think people might be a little

663
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:58,820
bit nervous to say these kinds of things in this day and age.

664
00:50:58,820 --> 00:51:03,300
But it's just, it's just what I've experienced, you know, and I've seen it, I've seen it

665
00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:04,300
with my friends.

666
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:05,300
I've seen it with my close friends.

667
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:07,340
I've seen it with guys that work for me.

668
00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:12,700
Hey man, shut up, stop acting like that and get your shit together.

669
00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:17,460
And guys go Roger that and they go and do it.

670
00:51:17,460 --> 00:51:19,700
Yeah, you sound like my internal monologue.

671
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:22,100
I'm about to quit myself.

672
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:27,140
Yeah, I think, I think the, the place where we get in trouble is we assume that one thing's

673
00:51:27,140 --> 00:51:30,180
going to work for everyone and like, and you've illustrated it perfectly and thank you for

674
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:31,180
that.

675
00:51:31,180 --> 00:51:33,500
You know, there are some of us that need to kick up the ass and it might just be that

676
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:35,940
we, you know, one day when you kick up the ass, next day, we need a hug.

677
00:51:35,940 --> 00:51:36,940
Who knows?

678
00:51:36,940 --> 00:51:39,780
But I think that when there's this argument, I know this is the right way of doing it.

679
00:51:39,780 --> 00:51:40,780
This is the right way of doing it.

680
00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:42,500
It's that's the problem.

681
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:47,060
If you, if you're telling, you know, giving people, well, here's the different options.

682
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:50,220
And as you said, you tried one and you saw in their eyes that wasn't the right one for

683
00:51:50,220 --> 00:51:51,220
that time.

684
00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:54,180
Then you, you know, you move to a different tactic.

685
00:51:54,180 --> 00:51:56,240
And I think that's what I see goes wrong.

686
00:51:56,240 --> 00:52:02,240
So so many times in, in, in fitness and nutrition and so many things is treating every human

687
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,000
being as exactly the same.

688
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,700
You've got to find, you know, what works for each particular person that you're dealing

689
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:08,700
with.

690
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:10,980
And the same, I think with a crew dynamic in a fire service too.

691
00:52:10,980 --> 00:52:11,980
Yeah.

692
00:52:11,980 --> 00:52:14,260
I mean, I read about them that and leadership strategy and tactics.

693
00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:18,740
I don't think I've heard a better metaphor for it, but if you're a woodworker, you've

694
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:24,260
got to know what different tools to use on the pieces of wood.

695
00:52:24,260 --> 00:52:28,380
And then you've got to know that there's different types of wood and the different types of wood

696
00:52:28,380 --> 00:52:31,380
require different applications of those tools.

697
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:36,460
And then you've got to recognize that every piece of wood in every type of word is an

698
00:52:36,460 --> 00:52:44,140
individual piece of wood that has its own individual knots and, and, and bowing to it.

699
00:52:44,140 --> 00:52:48,540
And you've got to be able to adapt your tools and apply them correctly.

700
00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:52,140
And if you can't do that, then you're going to ruin that piece of wood.

701
00:52:52,140 --> 00:52:53,780
And it's the same thing with a human being.

702
00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:55,340
Every human being is different and sure.

703
00:52:55,340 --> 00:52:56,980
There's different categories of them.

704
00:52:56,980 --> 00:52:58,500
You know, you've got guys, that's a hot head.

705
00:52:58,500 --> 00:52:59,940
You've got a guy that's detached.

706
00:52:59,940 --> 00:53:02,000
You've got a guy that's got a giant ego.

707
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,600
You've got a guy that's not confident.

708
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:04,600
You got everybody.

709
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,980
And you can, you can predict these different types of wood and you can read them.

710
00:53:07,980 --> 00:53:10,860
But then once you start applying your tools to them, you got to remember that that guy

711
00:53:10,860 --> 00:53:16,020
with a big ego also has some weird, you know, sadness about something that happened to them.

712
00:53:16,020 --> 00:53:21,140
And the guy that's that lacks confidence or the guy that's not confident is also, you

713
00:53:21,140 --> 00:53:25,420
know, super paranoid and you've got to use your tools correctly.

714
00:53:25,420 --> 00:53:30,000
And you've got to modulate the application of your tools based on the feedback loop that

715
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:31,220
you get from people.

716
00:53:31,220 --> 00:53:32,220
Yeah.

717
00:53:32,220 --> 00:53:33,220
And you're right.

718
00:53:33,220 --> 00:53:34,660
That's such a great analogy and it's so true.

719
00:53:34,660 --> 00:53:38,740
And I think that that's as leaders, you know, we that's reps, as you were saying before

720
00:53:38,740 --> 00:53:43,220
about grief as well, the more attention we pay, the more humility we have when we make

721
00:53:43,220 --> 00:53:47,980
a mistake leadership wise, the more ability we're going to have to make the right selections

722
00:53:47,980 --> 00:53:49,780
in the future.

723
00:53:49,780 --> 00:53:51,160
Yeah.

724
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,460
And this doesn't mean that you, this doesn't mean that I, as a leader, every time I talk

725
00:53:55,460 --> 00:54:01,980
to my 20 man team, that I have to break each individual directive down to each individual

726
00:54:01,980 --> 00:54:02,980
person.

727
00:54:02,980 --> 00:54:08,060
It means that when I give broad direction, which hits the bulk of the people, it hits,

728
00:54:08,060 --> 00:54:12,740
you know, the, the middle of the bell curve solid, but there's some outliers on either

729
00:54:12,740 --> 00:54:17,700
side that I might have to reinterpret it for offline and say, Hey, you know what?

730
00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:18,900
I actually want you to do this.

731
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:19,900
Hey, you know what?

732
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:24,480
Can you actually push over here so that the folks that are outliers that don't receive

733
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:29,180
the normal message, you give them a little adjustment to get them moving in the right

734
00:54:29,180 --> 00:54:30,180
direction.

735
00:54:30,180 --> 00:54:31,180
Yeah.

736
00:54:31,180 --> 00:54:34,860
So I want to ask you a question about, you know, ego and humility.

737
00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:38,820
What has been your experience from going from, you know, a very well known figure within

738
00:54:38,820 --> 00:54:43,740
the Navy to, you know, retiring out, starting up the podcast, writing the books and now

739
00:54:43,740 --> 00:54:48,060
being this incredibly well known figure globally?

740
00:54:48,060 --> 00:54:53,820
Have you had any bizarre moments during all that?

741
00:54:53,820 --> 00:54:54,820
Not really.

742
00:54:54,820 --> 00:54:59,620
I mean, I'm honestly still doing the same things that I, that I've always done, you

743
00:54:59,620 --> 00:55:00,620
know?

744
00:55:00,620 --> 00:55:07,300
When I was in the Navy, I woke up in the morning, I worked out, I went to work, I worked hard.

745
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:12,420
Um, I, the last few years that I was in, I actually taught leadership.

746
00:55:12,420 --> 00:55:15,960
So that's the same thing I'm doing now.

747
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:22,780
And yeah, I mean, it's look, you can, I'm just, I'm just doing what I've always done.

748
00:55:22,780 --> 00:55:23,780
It's nothing special.

749
00:55:23,780 --> 00:55:28,500
Uh, there's, there's a little bit more, um, there's a little bit more of a window into

750
00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:31,200
it now for more people, but I'm no different.

751
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,260
It certainly didn't make me any better than I was.

752
00:55:33,260 --> 00:55:38,300
I've, I've always been, you know, I've, I've never been spectacular at anything and I'm

753
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:43,580
no, no more spectacular now just because I have a YouTube video or whatever.

754
00:55:43,580 --> 00:55:45,220
You're an influencer now.

755
00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:49,900
Um, well, speaking of people who are very prevalent and, and, you know, are influencing,

756
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:52,660
obviously one of your friends is Joe Rogan.

757
00:55:52,660 --> 00:55:57,340
And recently I've been, I've really enjoyed him having these politicians on.

758
00:55:57,340 --> 00:55:59,300
Now I'm, you know, blanket statement.

759
00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:04,380
I'm not a huge fan of politics in general, but listening to Dan Crenshaw, listening to

760
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:10,180
Bernie and actually them having a platform of, you know, two plus hours to speak is really

761
00:56:10,180 --> 00:56:12,620
such an incredible experience to humanize these people.

762
00:56:12,620 --> 00:56:16,140
I know you went on with Tulsi Gabbard, listen to that one as well.

763
00:56:16,140 --> 00:56:22,380
So again, not asking you to pick any, any public, um, affiliations or anything, but

764
00:56:22,380 --> 00:56:31,300
just in general, what do you think as a nation we need to do to, um, you know, to improve

765
00:56:31,300 --> 00:56:33,020
leadership all the way at the very top?

766
00:56:33,020 --> 00:56:37,340
I'm not saying that any left or right is wrong up to this point, but it seems like the system

767
00:56:37,340 --> 00:56:40,460
does seem to churn out the same kind of people over and over again.

768
00:56:40,460 --> 00:56:45,180
Um, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm excited about someone like Tulsi or anyone else like

769
00:56:45,180 --> 00:56:48,220
that, someone younger, someone with different backgrounds.

770
00:56:48,220 --> 00:56:53,820
So what do you think as a nation, um, we can do to, to maximize the leadership in those

771
00:56:53,820 --> 00:56:57,500
top positions?

772
00:56:57,500 --> 00:57:02,580
I think the, the fact that you like these long conversations, I don't think you're alone

773
00:57:02,580 --> 00:57:03,580
in that fact.

774
00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:08,680
I think a lot of people, when they hear someone explain their ideas and they can understand

775
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:14,780
what ideas a person have has better instead of having someone's entire, you know, political

776
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:20,620
viewpoint cut down into a 45 second soundbite that gets played on the news and chopped up.

777
00:57:20,620 --> 00:57:23,340
I think that's one of the problems.

778
00:57:23,340 --> 00:57:30,260
Uh, and it, it makes people very polarized and you have to realize that every, like,

779
00:57:30,260 --> 00:57:33,500
you know, when you come up with a plan, people are going to have different ideas about the

780
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:41,740
plan and people, you know, I, I'm very good about, you know, if one of my, one of my guys

781
00:57:41,740 --> 00:57:44,180
comes up with a plan that's better than mine, I'm all about it.

782
00:57:44,180 --> 00:57:46,500
Even if they come up with a plan, that's not as good as mine.

783
00:57:46,500 --> 00:57:48,620
If that's a decent enough plan, I'm good with it.

784
00:57:48,620 --> 00:57:53,160
I'm not going to get caught up about it, but people, it turns into a, a lot of these things

785
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:58,180
turn into an ego battle of my way versus your way when actually what we want is the best

786
00:57:58,180 --> 00:57:59,180
way.

787
00:57:59,180 --> 00:58:04,660
So I think these long form, um, interviews and people understanding people better and,

788
00:58:04,660 --> 00:58:09,700
and, uh, having good conversations over an extended period of time is going to help us

789
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:14,380
out eventually because you'll start to see what ideas actually work.

790
00:58:14,380 --> 00:58:21,740
You'll start to see them get holes punched in them or, or get them bolstered up as more

791
00:58:21,740 --> 00:58:23,660
information comes to light.

792
00:58:23,660 --> 00:58:28,700
So yeah, I mean, I, I certainly hope that our country moves in that direction.

793
00:58:28,700 --> 00:58:34,060
You know, I think, you know, you mentioned Tulsi and she's, uh, she's very liberal in

794
00:58:34,060 --> 00:58:38,460
a lot of ways and Dan Crenshaw is very conservative in a lot of ways.

795
00:58:38,460 --> 00:58:43,060
And yet I'm friends with both them and, and they're friends with each other, which means

796
00:58:43,060 --> 00:58:44,700
they can actually have a conversation.

797
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:51,660
And even though they may never agree on a bunch of different issues, maybe they can

798
00:58:51,660 --> 00:58:53,340
get together and say, you know what?

799
00:58:53,340 --> 00:58:58,420
I think this thing over here, you think that thing over there, here's a solution that will

800
00:58:58,420 --> 00:59:03,620
probably appease, you know, most of what I want and most of what you want seems good

801
00:59:03,620 --> 00:59:04,620
enough.

802
00:59:04,620 --> 00:59:07,540
Let's go with it instead of no, I'm over here in this camp.

803
00:59:07,540 --> 00:59:08,540
You're over there in that camp.

804
00:59:08,540 --> 00:59:09,540
I hate you.

805
00:59:09,540 --> 00:59:10,540
You hate me.

806
00:59:10,540 --> 00:59:14,540
So I think people need to open their minds a little bit, understand other people's perspectives

807
00:59:14,540 --> 00:59:18,060
more and not be so dug in.

808
00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:21,140
You know, it's another chapter from leadership strategy and tactics.

809
00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:24,660
Don't dig in, you know, don't dig into a position where you can't maneuver from it.

810
00:59:24,660 --> 00:59:27,460
And people do that all the time, especially with politics.

811
00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:28,460
Absolutely.

812
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:29,940
Well, you've mentioned the books.

813
00:59:29,940 --> 00:59:30,940
Let's go to that now.

814
00:59:30,940 --> 00:59:35,660
So what made you write leadership strategy and tactics?

815
00:59:35,660 --> 00:59:40,280
As I continue to work with people all over the country, I would get the same questions

816
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,580
over and over again.

817
00:59:42,580 --> 00:59:47,940
And the questions weren't so much, hey, what does the principle cover and move mean?

818
00:59:47,940 --> 00:59:49,860
Or what does the principle simple mean?

819
00:59:49,860 --> 00:59:52,220
Or what does the principle prioritize and execute mean?

820
00:59:52,220 --> 00:59:54,460
Or what does the principle decentralized command mean?

821
00:59:54,460 --> 00:59:56,480
Or what does the principle extreme ownership mean?

822
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,020
They understood what the principles meant.

823
00:59:58,020 --> 01:00:04,140
What they had a hard time was actually taking those principles and figuring out the strategies

824
01:00:04,140 --> 01:00:06,340
and tactics to implement those principles.

825
01:00:06,340 --> 01:00:08,380
And I would answer these questions on my podcast.

826
01:00:08,380 --> 01:00:11,540
I'd answer them in real life to companies.

827
01:00:11,540 --> 01:00:15,040
And so I just started saying, no, I'm going to I'm going to start logging these down.

828
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:19,300
And the questions that would keep coming to the surface, I just answered them in the book

829
01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:23,540
so that someone could pick up the book and say, hey, my boss has a big ego.

830
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:24,540
How do I handle it?

831
01:00:24,540 --> 01:00:25,720
My subordinate doesn't want to listen to me.

832
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:27,300
How do I handle it?

833
01:00:27,300 --> 01:00:30,160
My my subordinate doesn't agree with my plan.

834
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:31,160
How do I handle it?

835
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,980
My troops are morale is low.

836
01:00:32,980 --> 01:00:33,980
How do I handle it?

837
01:00:33,980 --> 01:00:35,380
My men still pride in my troops.

838
01:00:35,380 --> 01:00:42,180
Just every standard leadership question, which I hear all the time, I put it into the book.

839
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:43,180
Brilliant.

840
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:46,820
Now, the the code, the evaluation and the protocol that you wrote with David Burke,

841
01:00:46,820 --> 01:00:49,500
what's the difference with that one?

842
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:52,340
Well, that's not really about leadership.

843
01:00:52,340 --> 01:00:55,300
That's just about you as a human being.

844
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:59,900
And you know, the thing is, we all go through life.

845
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:00,900
You go through life.

846
01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:06,420
It's like if you were if you were going on a hike somewhere, if you don't have a destination

847
01:01:06,420 --> 01:01:09,860
that you're going to and you don't have some waypoints along the way to make sure that

848
01:01:09,860 --> 01:01:12,900
you're tracking to get to the destination, you're never going to get anywhere.

849
01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:17,660
And people go through all life all the time without having a destination.

850
01:01:17,660 --> 01:01:19,500
And maybe they have a professional destination.

851
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:20,860
But what's their family destination?

852
01:01:20,860 --> 01:01:22,460
What's their physical destination?

853
01:01:22,460 --> 01:01:25,660
What's their what's their intellectual destination?

854
01:01:25,660 --> 01:01:27,300
And they just don't have these things.

855
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:31,300
They don't have a path that they want to be on or that they that they can follow.

856
01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:35,100
And they don't have any protocol to handle situations that come up.

857
01:01:35,100 --> 01:01:40,540
And they have no way of evaluating what it is that they're trying to achieve.

858
01:01:40,540 --> 01:01:43,840
And they don't even have a code that they're making decisions by.

859
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,980
It's actually insane that you think about that, that there's not a code that people

860
01:01:47,980 --> 01:01:49,500
can make decisions by.

861
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:51,340
There's not an evaluation to assess where you're at.

862
01:01:51,340 --> 01:01:56,160
And there's not protocols to handle situations that unfold in front of you.

863
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,740
So wrote a book called The Code, The Evaluation, The Protocols.

864
01:01:59,740 --> 01:02:01,800
And it's very simple, very straightforward.

865
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:08,060
It's meant you can definitely utilize it as is, but it's meant for you as an individual

866
01:02:08,060 --> 01:02:13,820
to build upon and say, you know what, here's another area that I need to evaluate myself

867
01:02:13,820 --> 01:02:15,900
in in order to make progress.

868
01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:19,560
You know, whether that's playing guitar or whether that's building a relationship with

869
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:25,480
your son or whether that is figuring out the best way to correct your finances.

870
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,800
You need to build an evaluation so that you're seeing how you're doing.

871
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:30,440
And so that's what the book is for.

872
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,100
And people have been stoked on it.

873
01:02:32,100 --> 01:02:33,100
Yeah.

874
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:35,060
Well, that's bringing up a topic that I've wondered as well.

875
01:02:35,060 --> 01:02:39,920
I'm wondering how many people having been forced to not work, obviously, if they're

876
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:45,500
not in the frontline personnel that have given this time and actually took a step back and

877
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:48,300
said, I don't want to do this job anymore.

878
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:49,300
I'm not enjoying it.

879
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,380
As you said, it's not getting me to a specific purpose.

880
01:02:52,380 --> 01:02:54,260
I found myself falling in there.

881
01:02:54,260 --> 01:02:57,380
I had bills to pay and here I am 10 years later.

882
01:02:57,380 --> 01:03:02,940
So I think this would be a great guide for people to do a self-evaluation during this

883
01:03:02,940 --> 01:03:06,500
time and ask themselves, are you going back to a job that you love?

884
01:03:06,500 --> 01:03:07,860
If you are, fantastic.

885
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:12,060
But also, has this time given you a moment to realize you have one lifetime?

886
01:03:12,060 --> 01:03:13,060
That's it.

887
01:03:13,060 --> 01:03:14,900
Are you doing that dream job that you always wanted to do?

888
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,660
And if not, how do you get there?

889
01:03:17,660 --> 01:03:19,900
Yeah, no doubt.

890
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:22,820
And you know, it says in the beginning of the book, here I got a copy.

891
01:03:22,820 --> 01:03:25,260
I'll read it.

892
01:03:25,260 --> 01:03:28,300
It just says without an objective, the objective will not be reached.

893
01:03:28,300 --> 01:03:29,860
Without a goal, the goal will not be achieved.

894
01:03:29,860 --> 01:03:31,380
Without a standard, the standard will not be met.

895
01:03:31,380 --> 01:03:33,060
Without a mission, the mission cannot be accomplished.

896
01:03:33,060 --> 01:03:35,420
Without an ideal, the ideal will never be realized.

897
01:03:35,420 --> 01:03:39,180
Without a clear path, the path cannot be followed.

898
01:03:39,180 --> 01:03:40,740
That's the opening of the book.

899
01:03:40,740 --> 01:03:45,100
And then it says, yet we as humans often go through life without any of these.

900
01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:46,100
And so we wander.

901
01:03:46,100 --> 01:03:48,940
We wander aimlessly, moving without making progress.

902
01:03:48,940 --> 01:03:50,740
Days, months, and years passes by.

903
01:03:50,740 --> 01:03:51,740
Time is wasted.

904
01:03:51,740 --> 01:03:54,220
It means life is wasted and our potential is wasted.

905
01:03:54,220 --> 01:03:56,820
Our own potential squandered.

906
01:03:56,820 --> 01:03:59,540
So that's how it opens up because it's true.

907
01:03:59,540 --> 01:04:02,280
If you don't, if you don't have a goal, you won't make it.

908
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:07,460
So why not set it up, assess your life, figure out what code you're going to live by, and

909
01:04:07,460 --> 01:04:14,020
then evaluate yourself and how well you do staying within the confines of that code.

910
01:04:14,020 --> 01:04:15,020
Absolutely.

911
01:04:15,020 --> 01:04:18,220
I just bought, it was from the Five Minute Diary.

912
01:04:18,220 --> 01:04:21,540
Publishers called the, I think it's Productivity Diary.

913
01:04:21,540 --> 01:04:23,660
But it's just some goals every day that you write down.

914
01:04:23,660 --> 01:04:29,780
And it's amazing how effective that simple process of just making a list.

915
01:04:29,780 --> 01:04:30,780
This is what I want to do.

916
01:04:30,780 --> 01:04:34,060
And not beating yourself up if you hadn't got it, but you slowly, you know, working

917
01:04:34,060 --> 01:04:37,500
your way up the steps to two, three weeks later, you realize you're actually getting

918
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:41,740
a lot done in a shorter amount of time that you had just by prioritizing.

919
01:04:41,740 --> 01:04:46,220
And I know prioritize and execute is one of your main philosophies.

920
01:04:46,220 --> 01:04:47,220
It is indeed.

921
01:04:47,220 --> 01:04:48,220
Yes.

922
01:04:48,220 --> 01:04:52,500
I always say if you've got stuff you need to get done, write it down and go do it.

923
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:53,500
Absolutely.

924
01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:57,060
Well, just one last area I want to touch on before we kind of transition to some closing

925
01:04:57,060 --> 01:04:58,380
questions.

926
01:04:58,380 --> 01:05:00,860
People ask as well about work-life balance.

927
01:05:00,860 --> 01:05:02,580
So you are incredibly productive.

928
01:05:02,580 --> 01:05:06,240
Obviously, you're writing, you're doing the podcast, you're out there actually teaching

929
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:07,380
face to face.

930
01:05:07,380 --> 01:05:14,020
How do you personally balance the work life with the home life?

931
01:05:14,020 --> 01:05:21,460
You know, I got asked this question by a guy that helps echelon front at the Musters.

932
01:05:21,460 --> 01:05:24,060
It's a guy named Alan, great guy.

933
01:05:24,060 --> 01:05:29,520
And he said, you know, and he's been kind of following along and helping us out since

934
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:30,520
day one.

935
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,820
I think he heard me on Tim Ferriss like a lot of people did and then, you know, hooked

936
01:05:33,820 --> 01:05:37,060
into the Jocko podcast and the books, the whole nine yards.

937
01:05:37,060 --> 01:05:40,860
He's been in the game and he said, you know, and he's, you know, he watches everything

938
01:05:40,860 --> 01:05:45,500
I'm doing and all the different podcasts that are coming out and gets every book.

939
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:48,780
And we met at the Muster, you know, for which we always meet at the Muster.

940
01:05:48,780 --> 01:05:54,640
We were assembling at the Muster and he said, you know, he's like, I want to know if you're

941
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:58,020
doing okay when it comes to your family life.

942
01:05:58,020 --> 01:06:00,700
Like, and if you are, how are you doing it?

943
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:04,880
And I said, you know what, let me think about that and let me get back to you.

944
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,660
And so I thought about it.

945
01:06:07,660 --> 01:06:10,940
And I, next day I said, Hey, I haven't answered your question.

946
01:06:10,940 --> 01:06:12,820
And he said, okay, cool.

947
01:06:12,820 --> 01:06:22,660
I said, my family is a decentralized unit that does not need me to be there all the

948
01:06:22,660 --> 01:06:23,660
time.

949
01:06:23,660 --> 01:06:30,620
They, like, you know, you go through my family, starting with my wife, my wife is an independent,

950
01:06:30,620 --> 01:06:36,220
you know, active, very engaged woman.

951
01:06:36,220 --> 01:06:39,960
And when we are together, it's great.

952
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,480
And when I'm not there, she's doing what she's doing.

953
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:48,100
She's working out, she's involved in charitable organizations.

954
01:06:48,100 --> 01:06:50,020
She's, you know, doing stuff with our kids.

955
01:06:50,020 --> 01:06:55,140
She's got all kinds of things that she does that she likes to do and that don't require

956
01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:56,580
my presence.

957
01:06:56,580 --> 01:06:58,980
My oldest daughter, she's in college.

958
01:06:58,980 --> 01:07:05,140
She's totally independent, self-sufficient, self-starter, makes things happen, doesn't

959
01:07:05,140 --> 01:07:06,180
need anything from me.

960
01:07:06,180 --> 01:07:11,480
My second daughter, also in college, self-starter, never had to tell either of my daughters to

961
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:16,780
do homework or study for a test or check on their grades or be home at a certain time.

962
01:07:16,780 --> 01:07:19,220
Total just self-sufficient humans.

963
01:07:19,220 --> 01:07:27,440
My son, totally on his own program, gets straight A's, works out every day, trains, is nice

964
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:34,740
and respectful to other people, you know, trains jiu-jitsu, wrestles, surfs.

965
01:07:34,740 --> 01:07:41,220
I will do all of those things with him, but he doesn't need me there for any of them.

966
01:07:41,220 --> 01:07:45,140
And my youngest daughter, this is the, you know, since she's only 10 years old, she needs

967
01:07:45,140 --> 01:07:47,520
the most from me.

968
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:53,780
But even she's old enough and on her own program enough to make things happen, she doesn't

969
01:07:53,780 --> 01:07:57,700
need direct supervision from me.

970
01:07:57,700 --> 01:08:05,260
So because I have a decentralized command in my family, the family isn't all reliant on,

971
01:08:05,260 --> 01:08:07,700
you know, dad doing this or dad doing that.

972
01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:10,220
When dad's not there, they go and make things happen.

973
01:08:10,220 --> 01:08:12,380
Do I love hanging out with my wife and kids?

974
01:08:12,380 --> 01:08:13,380
Absolutely.

975
01:08:13,380 --> 01:08:14,380
Do they need me?

976
01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:23,180
No, they don't need me every single day to help them or coddle them or, you know, even

977
01:08:23,180 --> 01:08:24,560
provide for them.

978
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:25,780
They're making things happen.

979
01:08:25,780 --> 01:08:31,380
And it's awesome to see, it's not, it may sound weird, but it's actually awesome.

980
01:08:31,380 --> 01:08:38,820
Like it's the relationships that we have is only based on, is only based on actual, you

981
01:08:38,820 --> 01:08:41,140
know, enjoyment of each other's company.

982
01:08:41,140 --> 01:08:46,940
There's no codependent relationship where they need me or I need them.

983
01:08:46,940 --> 01:08:49,320
It's hey, it's awesome to see you.

984
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,320
Let's go surfing.

985
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:51,740
Hey, it's awesome to see you.

986
01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:52,940
Let's go walk the dog.

987
01:08:52,940 --> 01:08:57,540
You know, it's that which I think is a better way for things to work out.

988
01:08:57,540 --> 01:09:02,540
And you know, a lot of this is of course, thanks to my wife who has always, you know,

989
01:09:02,540 --> 01:09:07,020
I got very lucky because I don't think I could have predicted how squared away she would

990
01:09:07,020 --> 01:09:13,220
be that she would be able to do multiple deployments with me being gone and me, you know, not knowing

991
01:09:13,220 --> 01:09:15,540
when I'm coming home or really even if I'm coming home.

992
01:09:15,540 --> 01:09:22,040
And she handled that and worked jobs and raised kids and did it all with a freaking smile

993
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,140
on her face and never complained about anything.

994
01:09:24,140 --> 01:09:26,540
So is that luck?

995
01:09:26,540 --> 01:09:28,340
Yes.

996
01:09:28,340 --> 01:09:30,240
So I think that's it.

997
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:32,540
And everybody knows that I work hard.

998
01:09:32,540 --> 01:09:34,740
Everyone in my family knows that I work hard.

999
01:09:34,740 --> 01:09:38,220
Everybody in my family knows that that's part of the way I am.

1000
01:09:38,220 --> 01:09:43,980
My wife married me and I actually told her the SEAL teams is the most important thing

1001
01:09:43,980 --> 01:09:46,060
to me and it always will be.

1002
01:09:46,060 --> 01:09:50,740
And you know, then I retired from the SEAL teams and well, now I work really hard.

1003
01:09:50,740 --> 01:09:55,560
And the backdrop to that is, you know, when I say that the SEAL teams is the most important

1004
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,940
thing to me and it's more important than my family.

1005
01:09:57,940 --> 01:09:59,820
Well, that's what's happening right now.

1006
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:03,220
But I'm going to be, you know, I will retire from the SEAL teams and I'll still be here

1007
01:10:03,220 --> 01:10:06,820
for the family and I work really hard right now, but I'm still going to be here for the

1008
01:10:06,820 --> 01:10:08,460
family when all this is over.

1009
01:10:08,460 --> 01:10:11,060
So everybody knows that and they support it.

1010
01:10:11,060 --> 01:10:15,020
And that's, I guess, how it happens.

1011
01:10:15,020 --> 01:10:16,020
Yeah.

1012
01:10:16,020 --> 01:10:18,540
Well, thank you for that because that's so pertinent for the first responders out there

1013
01:10:18,540 --> 01:10:23,300
too, their husbands, their wives, whoever is at home, you know, is that woman or man

1014
01:10:23,300 --> 01:10:24,300
as well?

1015
01:10:24,300 --> 01:10:31,220
You know, and just to the average firefighter, for example, their spouse, basically the responder

1016
01:10:31,220 --> 01:10:34,240
has gone for about 10 years of a 30 year career, you know.

1017
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,940
So it's a long time and it's very well illustrated.

1018
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:40,300
I don't know if you've seen the movie Only the Brave.

1019
01:10:40,300 --> 01:10:44,860
It's Amanda Marsh who I had on, but she's her husband, Eric Marsh is one of the men

1020
01:10:44,860 --> 01:10:48,620
that were killed in Prescott, the Prescott 19 that we lost.

1021
01:10:48,620 --> 01:10:53,060
But when they're deployed for months at a time, the men, the women, whoever's left

1022
01:10:53,060 --> 01:10:58,620
home to take care of the family, they're basically effectively single parents until the husband

1023
01:10:58,620 --> 01:11:01,200
or the wife comes back from, you know, whatever mission they're on.

1024
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,900
So they are the absolute backbone of what we do.

1025
01:11:04,900 --> 01:11:09,140
And I think that's such a great answer because there is a balance, you know, and we cannot

1026
01:11:09,140 --> 01:11:13,460
be there if we're at a fire station, a police station, you know, deployed overseas.

1027
01:11:13,460 --> 01:11:17,940
But you know, we're still their father, their mother, and we're able to slot back together

1028
01:11:17,940 --> 01:11:19,940
when we return.

1029
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:23,380
Yeah, no doubt about it.

1030
01:11:23,380 --> 01:11:28,620
And you know, I had this conversation with many SEALs while I was on active duty, you

1031
01:11:28,620 --> 01:11:33,620
know, guys would start to say, well, I don't know if my kids, my wife, my this, my that.

1032
01:11:33,620 --> 01:11:42,180
And I'd say, you know, for thousands of years, thousands of years, a group of men warriors

1033
01:11:42,180 --> 01:11:47,060
have been loading up on the boats, loading up on airplanes, loading up on the backs of

1034
01:11:47,060 --> 01:11:56,180
horses and traveling away for years, months, years, sometimes, you know, decades to go

1035
01:11:56,180 --> 01:11:57,780
out and do what they have to do.

1036
01:11:57,780 --> 01:12:03,580
You know, in World War Two in America, when you left, you came home when it was over.

1037
01:12:03,580 --> 01:12:04,580
It wasn't a six month deployment.

1038
01:12:04,580 --> 01:12:05,700
It wasn't a 12 month deployment.

1039
01:12:05,700 --> 01:12:08,360
It was you're gone until it's over.

1040
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,020
And that's what our forefathers did.

1041
01:12:11,020 --> 01:12:13,300
So and you know what?

1042
01:12:13,300 --> 01:12:15,580
They produced the greatest generation.

1043
01:12:15,580 --> 01:12:17,780
So we can handle it.

1044
01:12:17,780 --> 01:12:19,500
The spouses can handle it.

1045
01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:22,300
The kids can handle it.

1046
01:12:22,300 --> 01:12:25,580
But it can be done.

1047
01:12:25,580 --> 01:12:28,300
And it's the way it has happened for a really long time.

1048
01:12:28,300 --> 01:12:29,860
And by the way, it's not just fire service.

1049
01:12:29,860 --> 01:12:33,700
I mean, businessmen go and travel the world.

1050
01:12:33,700 --> 01:12:36,640
People that are merchant Marines go out to sea.

1051
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:41,900
You know, there's so many occupations where you're gone working 12, 14, 18 hours a day

1052
01:12:41,900 --> 01:12:44,540
and you don't see your family.

1053
01:12:44,540 --> 01:12:47,200
And you know, that's the way it works.

1054
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:48,800
Your family is going to be OK.

1055
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:55,340
Your family, if you if you if you set up a good decentralized command within your family,

1056
01:12:55,340 --> 01:12:59,500
where they're not reliant upon you, they're going to do just fine.

1057
01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:03,640
And when they are when they need your help, you can you can insert yourself and fix things

1058
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,700
and solve problems and give them guidance.

1059
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:08,740
And then you go back to doing what you have to do.

1060
01:13:08,740 --> 01:13:13,780
So it's it's it's the reality of life.

1061
01:13:13,780 --> 01:13:18,140
You know, even if even if you took all this modern complexity away, guess what?

1062
01:13:18,140 --> 01:13:24,340
I'm going to go on a eight day hunting trip looking for a woolly mammoth to kill to feed

1063
01:13:24,340 --> 01:13:25,340
my family.

1064
01:13:25,340 --> 01:13:27,180
And while I'm gone, things are going to happen.

1065
01:13:27,180 --> 01:13:31,700
And my wife's going to pick up a spear and defend the tribe from the mountain lion.

1066
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:33,560
You know, like that's what happens.

1067
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:34,980
So it's OK.

1068
01:13:34,980 --> 01:13:36,220
Human beings are OK with this.

1069
01:13:36,220 --> 01:13:41,380
You can't you can't get too wrapped around the fact that, you know, you're not going

1070
01:13:41,380 --> 01:13:42,660
to be there all the time.

1071
01:13:42,660 --> 01:13:43,660
It's OK.

1072
01:13:43,660 --> 01:13:44,660
It's normal.

1073
01:13:44,660 --> 01:13:45,660
Yeah.

1074
01:13:45,660 --> 01:13:46,660
But you are funny enough.

1075
01:13:46,660 --> 01:13:50,600
My wife's about to go to medical school for four years for not four years for four hours

1076
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:52,340
away for the next five years.

1077
01:13:52,340 --> 01:13:54,260
So our family dynamic is going to change.

1078
01:13:54,260 --> 01:13:55,260
But it's the same thing.

1079
01:13:55,260 --> 01:13:56,580
I mean, it is what it is.

1080
01:13:56,580 --> 01:14:00,300
She's got a burning desire to finish up her medical journey.

1081
01:14:00,300 --> 01:14:01,300
And that's what it takes.

1082
01:14:01,300 --> 01:14:03,100
So, yeah, I love the answers.

1083
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:04,100
Thank you so much.

1084
01:14:04,100 --> 01:14:05,100
Yeah, no problem.

1085
01:14:05,100 --> 01:14:06,100
Right.

1086
01:14:06,100 --> 01:14:11,220
Well, then, speaking of traveling, when will the first muster be up and running and where

1087
01:14:11,220 --> 01:14:12,220
will it be?

1088
01:14:12,220 --> 01:14:18,900
Well, right now, it's supposed to be in Phoenix, Arizona in September.

1089
01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:22,020
And you I think last time I went back and forth with you, I think it was either Jason

1090
01:14:22,020 --> 01:14:29,220
or you mentioned that the roll call at the moment wasn't going ahead anymore.

1091
01:14:29,220 --> 01:14:30,220
The roll call.

1092
01:14:30,220 --> 01:14:34,060
So right now, I'm not sure what we're going to do with the next roll call.

1093
01:14:34,060 --> 01:14:38,460
But we we will move forward with it eventually once we are up and running again.

1094
01:14:38,460 --> 01:14:39,460
OK, excellent.

1095
01:14:39,460 --> 01:14:42,140
So for everyone, this thing that didn't hear the first interview, just tell them about

1096
01:14:42,140 --> 01:14:43,140
the roll call.

1097
01:14:43,140 --> 01:14:44,420
You wouldn't mind.

1098
01:14:44,420 --> 01:14:49,480
We just we just did a leadership training event for first responders.

1099
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:50,480
And we did one.

1100
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:51,480
We did it in Texas.

1101
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:57,620
We I kind of let it get a little bit out of control, meaning it turned.

1102
01:14:57,620 --> 01:15:05,660
So the muster is a big event that's very, very, very logistically heavy.

1103
01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:11,340
It's it's just a very big, burdensome event on our side.

1104
01:15:11,340 --> 01:15:17,980
And I intended the roll call to be much less of that and much more just brass tacks.

1105
01:15:17,980 --> 01:15:19,840
Hey, here's the leadership principles.

1106
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:21,460
Here's how they apply.

1107
01:15:21,460 --> 01:15:25,200
But we just we have a bunch of professionals in Eshlaan Front.

1108
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:28,180
Everyone wanted to take it to the next level.

1109
01:15:28,180 --> 01:15:33,540
And before I knew it, I looked up and we had every instructor going down to Dallas, everyone

1110
01:15:33,540 --> 01:15:34,540
participating.

1111
01:15:34,540 --> 01:15:39,780
Next thing you know, we're getting, you know, what are they called little bags of gear to

1112
01:15:39,780 --> 01:15:40,780
hand out to everyone.

1113
01:15:40,780 --> 01:15:46,040
Next thing you know, we just we just kept kept making it bigger and bigger.

1114
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,040
And it wasn't meant to be that way.

1115
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:48,460
It was meant to be brass tacks.

1116
01:15:48,460 --> 01:15:52,180
Hey, it's a six hour training session or an eight hour training session.

1117
01:15:52,180 --> 01:15:53,180
Here's the principles.

1118
01:15:53,180 --> 01:15:58,340
And so I'm trying to bring it back under control, put it back in that direction and I'll get

1119
01:15:58,340 --> 01:15:59,340
it there.

1120
01:15:59,340 --> 01:16:00,340
It's no factor.

1121
01:16:00,340 --> 01:16:02,980
And that way we can we can do more of them and and get out there and talk to more first

1122
01:16:02,980 --> 01:16:05,140
responders, which is our goal.

1123
01:16:05,140 --> 01:16:06,140
Fantastic.

1124
01:16:06,140 --> 01:16:07,140
Well, thank you.

1125
01:16:07,140 --> 01:16:11,780
One of the the friends on social media who's a soldier from the UK asked if you're going

1126
01:16:11,780 --> 01:16:18,420
to have any musters or roll calls in the UK anytime soon.

1127
01:16:18,420 --> 01:16:20,020
You know, I don't know.

1128
01:16:20,020 --> 01:16:24,580
We we just did one in Australia and it was a long haul to get down there.

1129
01:16:24,580 --> 01:16:25,580
It was great event.

1130
01:16:25,580 --> 01:16:27,060
Great people down there.

1131
01:16:27,060 --> 01:16:30,020
But once again, very logistically burdensome.

1132
01:16:30,020 --> 01:16:35,740
You know, it pulls the entire echelon front team off, you know, off of our projects and

1133
01:16:35,740 --> 01:16:39,220
off of our jobs back here in America.

1134
01:16:39,220 --> 01:16:43,420
What I will probably do for for that is set up.

1135
01:16:43,420 --> 01:16:49,020
You know, I did the I did the live speaking events, the Jocko live events in right right

1136
01:16:49,020 --> 01:16:51,340
in January.

1137
01:16:51,340 --> 01:16:56,660
And they're very high speed, low drag, very logistically simple.

1138
01:16:56,660 --> 01:16:57,780
It's just me.

1139
01:16:57,780 --> 01:16:59,820
There's no there's no setup.

1140
01:16:59,820 --> 01:17:03,220
There's no there's not even any there's not even any audio visual needs.

1141
01:17:03,220 --> 01:17:05,500
It's just a microphone and me.

1142
01:17:05,500 --> 01:17:07,740
And so it's very slick and easy to run.

1143
01:17:07,740 --> 01:17:08,780
I can do it very quickly.

1144
01:17:08,780 --> 01:17:12,740
It's very low impact on the organization of Echelon Front.

1145
01:17:12,740 --> 01:17:17,920
So I talked to Jamie, you know, my operations director at Echelon Front.

1146
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:26,700
And I said, hey, I should just do these, you know, Jocko live gigs in other places to kind

1147
01:17:26,700 --> 01:17:33,580
of assess the need and the demand signal for doing something bigger.

1148
01:17:33,580 --> 01:17:39,580
So we'll probably do recon missions into, you know, various countries first with just

1149
01:17:39,580 --> 01:17:42,060
Jocko live and then see where it goes from there.

1150
01:17:42,060 --> 01:17:43,060
Brilliant.

1151
01:17:43,060 --> 01:17:44,060
Thank you for that.

1152
01:17:44,060 --> 01:17:45,060
And I think that's a great idea.

1153
01:17:45,060 --> 01:17:48,900
Because that efficiency we're talking about is a certain point where it's diminishing

1154
01:17:48,900 --> 01:17:53,420
return if you're having to fly all those people when either just yourself or like you said,

1155
01:17:53,420 --> 01:17:56,780
the online platform is another great opportunity for people in different countries.

1156
01:17:56,780 --> 01:18:05,380
Yeah, the online platform is going to end up being way more popular than the live stuff,

1157
01:18:05,380 --> 01:18:10,680
not just because of the price point, because it's definitely I mean, it's obviously cheaper.

1158
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:16,620
It's cheaper for everyone, but with the online platform, you know, you come to the muster

1159
01:18:16,620 --> 01:18:19,940
like when someone comes to the muster, you know, there's a thousand people at the muster

1160
01:18:19,940 --> 01:18:22,100
or 900 people at the muster.

1161
01:18:22,100 --> 01:18:27,420
You have you could you might be able to answer ask a question to me directly.

1162
01:18:27,420 --> 01:18:30,500
And by the way, when we're at the muster, I never take a break.

1163
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:32,540
I'm there the entire time.

1164
01:18:32,540 --> 01:18:33,760
I don't eat.

1165
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,020
I don't sleep.

1166
01:18:35,020 --> 01:18:41,300
I just you know, when I'm not on stage actively or someone else is an on stage, which by the

1167
01:18:41,300 --> 01:18:44,180
way, I'm on stage most of the time.

1168
01:18:44,180 --> 01:18:47,580
If I'm not on stage, I'm standing there in front of the stage shaking hands and answering

1169
01:18:47,580 --> 01:18:48,660
people's questions.

1170
01:18:48,660 --> 01:18:52,460
Even with that, you know, there's a chance you won't even have a you know, you won't

1171
01:18:52,460 --> 01:18:56,100
get face to face with me because there's long lines, etc.

1172
01:18:56,100 --> 01:18:59,220
If you go to if you go to EF online, you're going to talk to me.

1173
01:18:59,220 --> 01:19:00,220
I'm going to be there.

1174
01:19:00,220 --> 01:19:03,780
You know, you're going to be able to ask me a question you can put in the chat box.

1175
01:19:03,780 --> 01:19:09,340
And the way we're expanding EF online, there's going to be even more opportunity to do that.

1176
01:19:09,340 --> 01:19:15,140
So I think I think our online platform and to your point, your question earlier about

1177
01:19:15,140 --> 01:19:20,340
what good has come from from the virus, I think our online platform is going to expand

1178
01:19:20,340 --> 01:19:25,940
to a point where it becomes way more popular than having us live because, you know, when

1179
01:19:25,940 --> 01:19:30,780
I go to work with a company in New York City and I get on a plane and I fly out there and

1180
01:19:30,780 --> 01:19:35,020
it takes, you know, it takes an entire day to travel to the East Coast.

1181
01:19:35,020 --> 01:19:39,020
You know, it's yes, it's a six hour flight and then it's an hour to get from JFK to the

1182
01:19:39,020 --> 01:19:41,940
hotel and then I got to get checked into the hotel.

1183
01:19:41,940 --> 01:19:42,940
And so it's a whole day.

1184
01:19:42,940 --> 01:19:45,460
It's you know, it's a 12 hour day.

1185
01:19:45,460 --> 01:19:49,700
And then I show up the next morning, I meet with the executives, I spend, you know, 45

1186
01:19:49,700 --> 01:19:52,780
minutes with them, I meet with the rest of their team, I spend an hour with them and

1187
01:19:52,780 --> 01:19:56,860
then I get back on a plane and I do another 12 hours heading back to the East Coast or

1188
01:19:56,860 --> 01:20:03,220
to the West Coast and they spend a ton of money, yes, on the travel, yes, on my time.

1189
01:20:03,220 --> 01:20:05,620
And they're by the way, you are paying for the time when I'm traveling.

1190
01:20:05,620 --> 01:20:08,300
I mean, that's part of what you're paying for.

1191
01:20:08,300 --> 01:20:12,660
So they end up paying a bunch of money and they had me for two or three hours.

1192
01:20:12,660 --> 01:20:18,060
Well, if I don't have to travel out there, you can pay me actually a little bit less

1193
01:20:18,060 --> 01:20:21,860
money and get more hours from me.

1194
01:20:21,860 --> 01:20:23,620
So and you'll get me face to face.

1195
01:20:23,620 --> 01:20:27,700
And now that everyone's used to, you know, being on Zoom and being on Skype and looking

1196
01:20:27,700 --> 01:20:33,100
at me, I'm three inches from the camera on Skype and you're three inches from the screen.

1197
01:20:33,100 --> 01:20:34,100
Guess what?

1198
01:20:34,100 --> 01:20:35,580
We're six inches apart, just like real life.

1199
01:20:35,580 --> 01:20:42,980
And I think people are going to realize that the communication, look, it's not 100% the

1200
01:20:42,980 --> 01:20:45,500
same as a live thing.

1201
01:20:45,500 --> 01:20:47,820
And you know, when people ask me if we're going to keep doing live events, we are just

1202
01:20:47,820 --> 01:20:52,540
like, you know, you go, you and I both listen to rock music.

1203
01:20:52,540 --> 01:20:56,220
Well, you listen to the CDs and when a concert comes, you still want to go see them live.

1204
01:20:56,220 --> 01:20:57,860
So we're still going to do live events.

1205
01:20:57,860 --> 01:21:01,020
There still is an additive element there.

1206
01:21:01,020 --> 01:21:07,500
But in terms of the practicality of teaching leadership, we can get so much of it done

1207
01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:12,780
so much more efficiently through our online platform that I think it's going to become

1208
01:21:12,780 --> 01:21:18,300
the primary pillar of our spreading the word on the principles that we teach.

1209
01:21:18,300 --> 01:21:19,300
Absolutely.

1210
01:21:19,300 --> 01:21:24,580
So for people listening, where can they find Echelon Front and the online platform?

1211
01:21:24,580 --> 01:21:27,420
The online platform is called efonline.com.

1212
01:21:27,420 --> 01:21:28,420
Fantastic.

1213
01:21:28,420 --> 01:21:31,660
Yeah, you mentioned rock concerts.

1214
01:21:31,660 --> 01:21:36,700
Actually this last weekend, we're supposed to be welcome to Rockville here in what used

1215
01:21:36,700 --> 01:21:38,300
to be Jacksonville, now it's Daytona Beach.

1216
01:21:38,300 --> 01:21:43,520
And it's been interesting seeing all the bands like missing playing for their fans.

1217
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:49,500
So it'd be an interesting observation to see as we're allowed to all congregate in large

1218
01:21:49,500 --> 01:21:53,420
numbers, again, probably more of a drive towards live events because people have missed that

1219
01:21:53,420 --> 01:21:56,060
social like face-to-face interaction.

1220
01:21:56,060 --> 01:21:59,180
Yeah, for sure.

1221
01:21:59,180 --> 01:22:01,740
People will want to get back in the game, I think.

1222
01:22:01,740 --> 01:22:02,740
Brilliant.

1223
01:22:02,740 --> 01:22:03,740
All right.

1224
01:22:03,740 --> 01:22:06,340
So then last time I asked you these next few questions, I'll kind of tell you what you

1225
01:22:06,340 --> 01:22:09,160
said last time and see if there's any new ones that you have.

1226
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:11,380
The first one was a book that you recommend.

1227
01:22:11,380 --> 01:22:15,700
You mentioned about face last time, are there any new ones you've come across that can be

1228
01:22:15,700 --> 01:22:18,460
to do with leadership or something completely different?

1229
01:22:18,460 --> 01:22:22,620
Yeah, I cover books that I find interesting on my podcast.

1230
01:22:22,620 --> 01:22:23,620
It's called Jocko Podcast.

1231
01:22:23,620 --> 01:22:29,900
If you go to jockopodcast.com, you can see the scores of books that I recommend and that

1232
01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:30,900
I read.

1233
01:22:30,900 --> 01:22:31,900
Brilliant.

1234
01:22:31,900 --> 01:22:32,900
All right.

1235
01:22:32,900 --> 01:22:37,740
So then with movies, you mentioned the series The Pacific and then a documentary Restrepo.

1236
01:22:37,740 --> 01:22:39,940
Anything new since then?

1237
01:22:39,940 --> 01:22:48,300
Well, I guess if I mentioned The Pacific, I should give equal treatment to Band of Brothers.

1238
01:22:48,300 --> 01:22:51,540
If you didn't make that connection, then you should make it.

1239
01:22:51,540 --> 01:22:52,540
Absolutely.

1240
01:22:52,540 --> 01:22:53,540
Yeah.

1241
01:22:53,540 --> 01:22:54,780
I actually used to work with Captain Dai.

1242
01:22:54,780 --> 01:22:59,960
I did stunts years ago and he taught us in like a mini actor stuntman boot camp.

1243
01:22:59,960 --> 01:23:01,820
So yeah, great, great story.

1244
01:23:01,820 --> 01:23:02,820
All right.

1245
01:23:02,820 --> 01:23:07,220
Is there a person you recommend to come on the podcast as a guest to talk to the first

1246
01:23:07,220 --> 01:23:11,500
responders, military and associated professions of the world?

1247
01:23:11,500 --> 01:23:14,300
Is there anybody from Ashland on front that you haven't had on yet?

1248
01:23:14,300 --> 01:23:16,580
Yeah, I think Flynn hasn't been on.

1249
01:23:16,580 --> 01:23:17,860
Leif, excuse me, Leif.

1250
01:23:17,860 --> 01:23:18,860
Leif hasn't been on.

1251
01:23:18,860 --> 01:23:19,860
I apologize.

1252
01:23:19,860 --> 01:23:24,420
Obviously, I've had Jason, JP and Dave and yourself.

1253
01:23:24,420 --> 01:23:26,460
Sounds like Leif's next.

1254
01:23:26,460 --> 01:23:27,460
Perfect.

1255
01:23:27,460 --> 01:23:29,140
All right.

1256
01:23:29,140 --> 01:23:34,020
And then last question before we make sure everyone can find you online.

1257
01:23:34,020 --> 01:23:36,140
Last time I asked you this, I said, what do you do to decompress?

1258
01:23:36,140 --> 01:23:41,300
You said Jiu-Jitsu, is there anything over and above that or is that still the same?

1259
01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:42,300
It's the same.

1260
01:23:42,300 --> 01:23:43,300
It's always the same.

1261
01:23:43,300 --> 01:23:48,660
Obviously, it's less right now because of COVID, but surfing Jiu-Jitsu and playing guitar.

1262
01:23:48,660 --> 01:23:49,660
Fantastic.

1263
01:23:49,660 --> 01:23:50,660
All right.

1264
01:23:50,660 --> 01:23:51,900
So you mentioned EF online.

1265
01:23:51,900 --> 01:23:56,420
Where else can people find you on social media and on the internet?

1266
01:23:56,420 --> 01:24:04,100
Just the normal places of social media, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook and I'm at Jocko Willing.

1267
01:24:04,100 --> 01:24:05,100
That's me.

1268
01:24:05,100 --> 01:24:06,100
Brilliant.

1269
01:24:06,100 --> 01:24:07,100
Thank you, Jocko.

1270
01:24:07,100 --> 01:24:08,100
Again, thank you so, so much.

1271
01:24:08,100 --> 01:24:09,100
I really, really appreciate it.

1272
01:24:09,100 --> 01:24:13,340
I think we've covered some different topics that last time and important topics, I think,

1273
01:24:13,340 --> 01:24:17,620
especially with people emerging from this isolation they've gone through.

1274
01:24:17,620 --> 01:24:20,780
And yeah, thank you so, so much for being so generous.

1275
01:24:20,780 --> 01:24:21,780
Yeah.

1276
01:24:21,780 --> 01:24:22,780
Thanks for having me on.

1277
01:24:22,780 --> 01:24:23,780
Good talking to you.

1278
01:24:23,780 --> 01:24:24,780
Appreciate it.

1279
01:24:24,780 --> 01:24:39,460
And thank you to all the listeners that are out there on the front lines keeping us safe.